Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:09:05 (GMT)
From: Jun 03, 2001 To: Jun 08, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Alan Fenstermacher -:- Public info on Pia's site -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:57:08 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Public info on Pia's site -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Pia's site- has she posted anything yet? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 10:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pia's site--it changes everyday.... -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:29:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- NEWSFLASH !The photographer is undergoing careful -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 16:16:00 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Misunderstanding re the new French anti-cult law -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:39:36 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- That's a bit clearer -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- That's a bit clearer -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 10:29:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- That's a bit clearer -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 02:22:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Thanks for elucidating :) (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:27:44 (GMT)

Michael McDonald -:- An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:58:05 (GMT)
__ Jim Sander -:- thanks Michael, and one more point... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:23:20 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Questions, Michael -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:30:00 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 19:57:37 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Welcome Michael -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Welcome Michael, nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:56:16 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- great letter to Premie In Angst (nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:06:29 (GMT)
__ donner -:- An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:04:00 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- I will take the bet -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:43:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Ten from me too Way? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 21:42:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Ten from me too Way? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 22:21:42 (GMT)
__ susan -:- another great Michael voice heard from! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 16:28:46 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Thank you, thank you -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:24:40 (GMT)
__ Jim Sander -:- An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:51:59 (GMT)
__ __ Been There -:- What did Ira have to say? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Jim S...go meditate brother .. -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:05:51 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- It must have been one hell of a journey -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:44:45 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Hi Michael. -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:47:39 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Really, Michael? What was THAT like? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:29:16 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Really, Michael? What was THAT like? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:05:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Answers to most of the above -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:53:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Surdas the gardener?! AAAARRRRGGH!! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 12:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Surdas the gardener?! AAAARRRRGGH!! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- McArthur Park .... can't stop laughing (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:37:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You wrote ''Surdas The Gardener?'' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 03:05:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- You wrote ''Surdas The Gardener?'' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:13:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Lambert in Gilgamesh? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Lambert in Gilgamesh? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Don't take ALL the blame, Michael -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- YOU wrote that? -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:06:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- r.e. Intl. PR team. What was THAT like? nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:10:00 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Michael - succinct and spot on letter !! nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:46:49 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Excellent Michael (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Welcome Michael - excellent and well spoken. (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:20:49 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- I am very glad that you chose to post this letter -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:00:53 (GMT)

eBay Alert -:- People Magazine, 6/16/75 Avec Embattled Maharaji -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:31:20 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- There's also a 'Living Master Quote Book' -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:18:35 (GMT)

eBay Alert -:- Video of Glastonbury Festival Avec Maharaji -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:19:54 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Pia,a bit about american slang,like 'It aint so..' -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:39:34 (GMT)
__ kev -:- well done la-ex -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:54:29 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- my vote's for Shoeless Joe - fact: he didn't cheat -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 16:57:04 (GMT)
__ Susan thoroughly out of -:- hibernation? A suggestion for Katie, Brian and JM -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:57:13 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- GOOD job la-ex -- and no one can! -- n/t -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:38:52 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Brilliant and accurate! Cross-cultural confusions -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:12:35 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Great post (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:55:22 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- la-ex, you've done it again 'It Is So!' -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:05:47 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- loved that LA ex... -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:03:55 (GMT)

Salam -:- Communisim, J-M and rawat -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:11:41 (GMT)
__ Sir David King of England -:- The politics of politics -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:27:39 (GMT)

Larkin -:- Snake oil.. the song version (semi-OT) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:36:18 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Another verse ... -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:41:05 (GMT)
__ __ Larkin -:- Love it...! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:55:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey Mr L -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 12:08:35 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- You forgot the ley lines, wicca, aromatherapy -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:19:39 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy WArp -:- You forgot the ... Ha Ha very cryptic Pat ! nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:18:57 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Snake oil.. the song version (semi-OT) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Hey Larkin ...Mickey... -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey guys it's already got a tune but ta anyway and -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey Moldy... -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey Moldy...sorry Dermot you super cool dude!! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:18:43 (GMT)

Jim -:- Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:58:19 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 02:17:47 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Damn, I'm going to miss the ex-lover label -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 06:29:35 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- So where's the retraction and apology? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Er, in your dreams? Heh, heh (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:16:31 (GMT)
__ such -:- i.e. Spin doctoring the Wheel of Misfortune... (nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:36:49 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:29:45 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Oops! Old news. Sorry (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:15:28 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Better, but still inaccurate -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- very high up officials of EV, very top positions -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Katie! I resent that. And you directed me to... -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Sorry, Rog - forgot about your chicken farm! :) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:09:40 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:20:08 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 10:27:56 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Just what I would have done on receipt of your -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:04:37 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- And ANOTHER letter to Pia! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:51:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- And ANOTHER letter to Pia! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Ashram grunt with bite! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:08:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scot J -:- I'm getting worried. -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Ouch! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:18:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Exie -:- Pias site is boring stuff -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:20:45 (GMT)

eb -:- Latvian Night Revisited (before I forget) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:33:39 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Latvian Night Revisited (before I forget) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 19:45:13 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- That was just so I could spend more time with you -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Embarassed? Definitely Not..... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, now I'll embarass you -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Now you've got me.... -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Anytime, Monmot. I hope you blushed............ NT -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:55:39 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- hey Monmot -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:07:11 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- yes, and we raised thousands of dollars!!! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hi Roger. -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 22:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- We missed you this time, AJW. -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:07:01 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- I also need to thank Marianne and Rafael -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- I'm am aren't I? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You're a leprechaun, Selene -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Training under Thelma - YES!!! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:37:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You left you heart in San Francisco -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- moving to San Francisco -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 22:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- San Francisco, open your Golden Gates -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Golden Gates - yikes! -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:06:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Golden Gates - cost a fortune. Pornolizer OT -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:25:17 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- yes thanks all and Marianne I just answered -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Anybody got any photos? -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- nerve wracking having your photo put up on forum -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:35:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Go for it - get those photos up here xxx nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:44:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I was sending you ESP mail, Moldy, hoping you -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:52:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- I was sending you ESP mail, posting this at exactl -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- PS Pat It was exactly 1-52 am when you posted ESP -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:37:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- So it would be my bedtime if I were there and you -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:57:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- So Sat night (SF) Sunday morning (Liverpool) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Got your email. Excellent news. Will write later. -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:25:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Wildflower -:- nerve wracking having your photo put up on forum -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Every time a camera came out I would push everyone -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:43:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Took my camera and didn't use it ! --n/t -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I sure hope not -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- But can't we post that one of you doing the hula -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes the heart and soul (soles) of the party -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- no no that was that other guy -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know you aren't joking -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:03:52 (GMT)

kev -:- A question for you Pia. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:10:33 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- A question for you Pia. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:25:30 (GMT)
__ __ D_Thomas -:- Witch Trial -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- I don't understand -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Vague Concept -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Witch Trial -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:05:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Witch Trial -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:23:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Are you saying there was never mental manipulation -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:54:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Are -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 19:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Witch Trial -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:01:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Witch Trial -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:24:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, let's run with: 'it's ALL mental manipulation' -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:55:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy channels cD -:- I like guitars but they don't have knowledge. -:- Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:21:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're a fucking idiot -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- You're a bad boy -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:22:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I wish I had, Chris, I wish I had... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:41:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- geez CD -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:27:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- mental manipulation is real all right -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:22:00 (GMT)

Susan -:- Pia's website a roaring success!!! -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:19:33 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Pia know Why? Could it of been, huh-The Porno (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:27:36 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Notice that 'About the Critics' now revised -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:56:47 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Notice that 'About the Critics' now revised -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Totally Pathetic! -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:14:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Totally Pathetic? - I STRONGLY disagree!!! -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:13:21 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Pia's website a roaring success!!! -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:55:08 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- I don't think I agree with the French law either -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- I don't agree with the French law either -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 21:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Yeah ,JM ignored my post to him -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I agree with you Susan. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:54:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Democracy -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:40:09 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Addendum -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:14:10 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Pia's website a roaring success!!! sez Pia -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:44:31 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- yep, my guess too... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- how amazingly ying-yangy of her! (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:15:41 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- In answer to people who disagree with me -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:33:10 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- The high road is always a good one -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:51:38 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- There are all sorts of people -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 06:59:39 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- BUT BUT BUT..... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:33:54 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- First inclinations -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:45:43 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- The Horrible Realisation that everything I .... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- I did defend Maharaji -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- You are correct Sir Dave -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:05:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Not for me Richard -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:20:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS it also me made LAUGH :)) (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:27:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- It also me made LAUGH which is why I chimed in -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- I did defend Maharaji -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:15:26 (GMT)
__ bob -:- In answer to people who disagree with me -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- In answer to people who agree with me - yes (nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:22:56 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Great Insight, Sir Dave -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:16:49 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- Very true. Clear presentation of facts and history -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:06:00 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- yes (nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- point taken, Joy nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:54:22 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- I don't know about the last line, Dave -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Dave,others have been on same page, r.e. phlegmies -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:45:40 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:57:08 (GMT)
From: Alan Fenstermacher
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Public info on Pia's site
Message:
I wonder why Pia form Denmark would use an ISP in Torrance CA?
The following information is frow a whois query on it-aint-so.org and their primary nameserver.

Phone: +45 80 80 80 80
Email: response@it-aint-so.org

Zone Contact:
Pia Ji
Pia Grunbaum
solnavej
Soborg, DK 12000
DK
Phone: -omitted-
Email: response@it-aint-so.org

Domain servers in listed order:

NS1.OMNIS.COM 216.239.128.2
NS2.OMNIS.COM 216.239.128.3

~
For more information about our services visit our website at:

http://domains.omnis.com

Whois Output for: omnis.com

Domain Name Owner:
Omnis Network
3655 Torrance Blvd Suite 440
Torrance, CA 90503
US

Admin Contact:
Omnis Network
Network, Omnis [ON-3]
3655 Torrance Blvd Suite 440
Torrance, CA 90503, US
Phone: (310) 316-2744
Email: nicreg@omnis.com

Technical Contact:
Omnis Network
Network, Omnis [ON-3]
~
~
~

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:36:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Alan Fenstermacher
Subject: Public info on Pia's site
Message:
I don't think that's relevant. I use a server in America for my business site because it's more reliable and customer friendly than the UK ones.

I do think Pia should hurry up and get some responses from premies put on her site. At present it looks more like an ex-premie site with the only information being of the anti Maharaji kind.

Or maybe no premies have responded?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 10:44:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Pia's site- has she posted anything yet?
Message:
besides what we saw there on day one, i mean?
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:29:59 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Pia's site--it changes everyday....
Message:
Today there is a starry picture in place of goob's with the message: ''The photographer is working on the new pictures:)''
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 16:16:00 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: NEWSFLASH !The photographer is undergoing careful
Message:
synchronisation and ( assuming he doesn't have a major mental fuck up and become a hateful EX ) will recharge his creative batteries in Nottingham & Sherwood Forest....after sending and receiving a vast number of gobbledegook EV memos he will then submit beautiful pics to futher enhance your navigation experience.

Critics of our beautiful LION ( who is in no way anything special ....just an ordinary human being like you and I) you are my mother and you are my father.....oh my Guru Maharaji I bow to your Lotus feet .....reveal to me Holy Name will be gobsmacked at the grace and perfection our site will continue to exhibit until all the hateful dogs of scurrilous rumour and bile are eaten alive.

Already we have had 1.8 billion hits since this site was launched.

Any day now we'll have a wide collection of fruitcakes writing divinely irrational TRUTH !!!!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:39:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Misunderstanding re the new French anti-cult law
Message:
Some gross misunderstanding about the new French anti-cult law

I guess you’ll find many good articles on the issue on the Internet,
but there are 2 things I’d like to say about it

1/ The purpose of the law IS NOT to allow authorities to decide which group is allowed to exist and which group is not.

The purpose it to allow authorities to dissolve associations who’ve ALREADY been condemned in court for serious motives, like sexual crimes, financial malpractices, frauds etc.

2/ The French social organizations and politics, and public at large is overly sensitive to manipulation, and very much attached to secularism, for historical and social reasons.

I can’t understand why EV’s PR are so concerned about it, given EV is not a cult !

The problem is they look like one under all aspects … (see the 14 Objection Letter).

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:20:53 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That's a bit clearer
Message:
No doubtI was spouting off without having too much knowledge of the subject !

Nevertheless ...170 organisations is STILL a lot . So all of these organisations have been convicted in the courts? Do you have juries in France? I dont think so . Maybe the elite court officials have a mindset about cults and steamroller through all of the them with a preset judgement that they are 'different' therfore guilty.

Of course, if genuine, provable criminal activity has been discovered then that sheds a different light on the matter. Then again, is genuine criminal activity only detected in the super efficient French criminal justice sytem and other countries just aren't thorough enough in checking malpractise on such a scale :))

Also I take your point about secularism in France yet it's still a large Catholic country. Has the Catholic church EVER been convicted of anything.....for example...child abuse, financial irregularity etc.......and if it has .....then will it too be dissolved along with the other, smaller organisations.

Care to answer?

Cheers

Dermot.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 10:29:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: That's a bit clearer
Message:
Do you have juries in France? I dont think so . Maybe the elite court officials have a mindset about cults and steamroller through all of the them with a preset judgement that they are 'different' therfore guilty.

The court system, code etc is very different in France. But that doesn't mean that courts and/or judgements are partial either. Cases are dealt with by specialised judges, and defense has every right.

We have juries only for 'serious' crimes, like murder, rapes etc that go to a different court (it's called cour d'assise).

That famous 170 cults' list has been done by specialists, and includes groups that are considered cults according to the most common criteria.

Some of these groups are very small.

There has already been huge debates on this issue in the media in France, and the new law is considered by a vast majority as well balanced.

The only vocal groups against the new law are the cults themselves. But groups that may be considered as cults, and have nothing to hide or reason to be brought to court for any abuse have nothing to fear.

What's the problem with EV ???? That's the question !!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 02:22:13 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That's a bit clearer
Message:
Well said JM.
Frankly living in America I can understand the outrage people feel here about a semblance of oppression (sp?) or discrimination when in fack the justice system is getting more and more biased. Laws are biased here specially when they have to do with immigration issues, drugs, etc so this place is not the mecca of equal protection under the law.

Mercedes who is not a lawyer but interprets for defendants in court and jails every day.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:27:44 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks for elucidating :) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:58:05 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: samhardy2002@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents
Message:
Dear all,

I was hoping not to be drawn publicly as yet into the current debate but the tone and content of the it-aint-so website beggars belief. If it is an official site, which I suspect it is, rather than an individual expression of devotion, it is a cop-out of immense proportions. I've pasted my response to the site below.

For those of you who don't know me, I've been involved on and off with DLM and EV since 1973 and up until last year was on the international PR team.

If the current crop of spammers on this site are premies intent on supporting their master, they'd do better to exhibit some integrity, wit and intelligence.


Dear Pia,

If your site is not open to debating with critics, it serves only to erect another closed shop in support of Maharaji's position. So far it is not off to a good start. Your correspondent WS, for example, is haphazard with the historical truth.

Leaving aside the vitriol sometimes exhibited on the ex sites, here are five statements which deserve examination by anyone with Knowledge or aspiring to its acquisition:

1. M is not the 'superior power in person', at least no more or less than you and I. He is a charismatic figure whose charisma is reinforced by the devotion showered upon him, and an adherent of a teacher/student tradition.

2. Elan Vital is an organisation which, despite its PR image, acts as if Maharaji is the 'superior power in person'. That is, it is a cult.

3. The tools and experience of Knowledge are not unique to Maharaji. The experience is inherently within you and may be reached by a number of means (brain science is a big eye-opener in this regard).

4. Elan Vital is beset by a paralysis caused by its ambivalent/deceitful presentation of Maharaji and Knowledge. Publicly, Maharaji's just a guy with a few techniques; privately, people sing arti to him. The official PR explanations are expected to be followed by those 'in synch'. There is no room for a range of opinions to be expressed to the media, from 'He's an okay guy' to 'I think he's the lord of the universe!' Natural poetry has been suppressed in favour of blandness.

5. The difference between 'the mind' and 'the heart' is just an arbitrary line drawn in the sand. They are not different places to live, as Maharaji seems to insist, but simply facile definitions by which we categorise parts of our experience of being alive.

These are perfectly reasonable propositions which could be debated without rancour, but I doubt that they will appear on your site.

Michael McDonald

PS The metaphor of the lion and the dogs is fatuous in the extreme.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:23:20 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: sjimsander@aol.com
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: thanks Michael, and one more point...
Message:
Michael-

I just wanted to add one more point to the post I wrote earlier today.

When people such as yourself post here, it can have enoromous potential to help people in their current lives, as they strive to piece together the puzzle of :
1)how they got into m
2)why they stayed so long
3)how and why they left
4)what did they get out of it

I'm not sure what your roles were over the years, but I seem to remember you from the late 1970's.
If you were around maharaji and the EV elite, if you can shed any light on stuff that the average 'rank and file' premie didn't see, it could be of enormous help to others.

I know that there is a 'voyeuristic' side to all of this.
That is understandable, with all of the secrecy and intrigue around maharaji since the beginning.

But beyond all that, the posts of people like Donner and Dettmers,instructors, community coordinators etc., have all played a valuable part in putting the picture together.

I'm not asking you to reveal things that you are uncomfortable talking about for any reason, but anything you can share, can be very helpful.
Many people will testify to that.

Thanks,
Jim Sander

PS-I am curious where you stand on M,K,,EV,EPO,Pia,premies etc. as of now....many of us have had 'awakening' type experiences in the last year or two, as we have evaluated and reassessed our past involvement with the whole thing....things look and feel very different to me now, as compared to a year ago...

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:30:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Questions, Michael
Message:
Hello Michael. Thanks for sharing that. You mentioned you were on the International PR team for Elan Vital, which, under the circumstances, takes guts. Not because of any retribution, but because you actually admit to being a part of what passes for 'PR' in that organization, which is, and always has been, an amazing joke, mostly because Maharaji is running the show, and he is someone completely out of touch with the way normal people think and live.

1. M is not the 'superior power in person', at least no more or less than you and I. He is a charismatic figure whose charisma is reinforced by the devotion showered upon him, and an adherent of a teacher/student tradition.

Right, he isn't superior, but there is the point that he openly claimed to be 'the Superior Power in Person' for many years, although Pia would have just think, or at least she implies, as does Elan Vital in their brilliant PR campaign, that he never did, despite the fact that there are thousands of people around who see that as an amazing revisionsit lie.

I guess charmisma is in the eye of the beholder, because I sure never saw it. I would also say that whatever charmisma Maharaji has is also reinforced by the controlled, and completely contrived, situations in which Maharaji allows himself to appear (thornes, stages, etc.,) with devotional music, and adoring 'group high' crowds, and the fact that he keeps himself separated from the vast majority of premies outside those settings.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 19:57:37 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents
Message:
Hi Michael, Pull up a chair. It's nice to have you aboard. Don't mind my vitriol passages, I just had the lid blown off my Cult Jar two weeks ago and I'm hurling bigggg chunks.

Cheers! Look forward to Dish Revealing Posts...do tell! do tell!

Until then, :)

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:44:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Welcome Michael
Message:
I'm sending this one to my premie friend -- Tonight!

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:56:16 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Welcome Michael, nt
Message:
Good to have you posting here!
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:06:29 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: great letter to Premie In Angst (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:04:00 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents
Message:
i'm taking bets that this pia site is not official in any way nor sanctioned even...not m's style to combat with critics openly..unless things have changed...and nothing else seems to have changed since i was around...his policy is to always let a sleeping dog lay. simply miss placed...or expectedly placed devotion that m will sooner or later shut down...indirectly of course. besides, we know m is a control freak of the first order and this site is not in his control...

any takers? $10.00 even money.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:43:40 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: I will take the bet
Message:
I will take the bet.

I believe that Pia started the site with prearranged permission. I believe that the site is sanctioned (behind the scenes) by both Elan Vital and Rawat. Somebody reported recently (I wish I could remember who) that new sites were in the works that would counter the ex-premie website. Enjoyinglife makes no mention of the exes, but the new site(s) would be designed to openly counter-attack the exes. Maharaji himself is of course remaining out of the fray, as always, letting others do his dirty work.

When the ex site first appeared, Maharaji acknowledged that he had enemies, that he wasn't worried about it, and that it was a group of just about a dozen people, no more than than, who were disgruntled. It has become obvious to Rawat and Elan Vital that the ex problem is getting bigger and they decided they had to address it in some effective way.

Pia says that she is starting the site on her own, as an individual, at her own expense, and not as an agent or representative of any person or organization other than herself. This is nothing but legalese. She is obviously an agent for Rawat, in the normal everyday sense of those words. The only thing that is probably totally true is the part about her paying the bills.

There is a group of people involved with her site. Undoubtedly there is a screening committee for whatever messages get posted on the site, and the screeening committee includes smart-card carrying members of Elan Vital, probably some very high-ups, who know what can and cannot be posted, according to Rawat's current wishes.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 21:42:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Ten from me too Way?
Message:
I think the Captain lets things run for a while to see what happens. Then steps in with a discrete comment or two.

He doesn't like stuff that is focused on anything but himself.

I don't think the site will last long either. They haven't got a perspective on it at all, and the way it's developing is really going to put people off the Captain, as well as turn them on to EPO.

What's the first thing you think when somebody is introducing you to an organisation, the first thing they say is, 'It's not a cult. It's not about money. '

That's not what they said to me when I first came along. It was more, 'You can see God. The Lord is on the planet.'

The cult isn't what it used to be.

Anth, will take ten dollars that it won't be there long too.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 22:21:42 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ten from me too Way?
Message:
Anth,

No, I'm not betting on how long it will last, only that they have official permission.

We've had years of Janice Wilson's and Ivete's poetry, so this sort of blather can go on endlessly, it seems.

Personally, I'm disappointed with the site, not really much superior to Enjoyinglife at all.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 16:28:46 (GMT)
From: susan
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: another great Michael voice heard from!
Message:
Thank you anhd wonderful post!
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:24:40 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Thank you, thank you
Message:
All five points are so right on!

These points address the real issues, namely who Mr. Rawat really is, and what our human experience really is.

The dychotomy between mind and heart is a juvenile way of thinking about our feelings and our intellect. There is only one voice within us and to polarize ourselves into a bad part and a good part is cartoon stuff. It is harmful religious nonsence. The growth toward wholeness and self-fulfillment must eventually lead us away from this silly philosophy that all supposed masters insist upon.

As for Rawat, how is one to know enough about him to be able to offer one's devotion to him? How are we to give him our faith? Those who make this attempt eventually fail, because devotion and faith do not belong to any finite human being. They belong elsewhere.

I am convinced that Pia's site is officially sanctioned by Elan Vital and Mr. Rawat. In fact, it was reported a few months back that an official response to the ex-premie internet site was in the planning stages, a new kind of site where premies would be able to offer their own positive expressions of practicing Knowledge. This is an effort to counterbalance the influence of exes, but as Pia clearly states, there is no plan to debate any of the issues with the exes.

One particularly cowardly aspect to Pia's site is the fact that she decries our lies and supposedly purposeful distortions, but she never states for the record what those lies are. All of the 14 objections listed on this site have been allowed to stand by Elan Vital. There has been absolutely no denial to any of the factual, first-hand, eye-witness information provided here.

Still, there are over 6,000 seats in Nottingham being registered by premies looking toward Maharaji for some sort of benefit to their lives. It is difficult to understand what they expect. Are they hoping to be eventually carried across the ocean of maya into eternity by the grace of God as it flows from Mr. Rawat's physical presence? Or do they simply expect another peptalk in order to disipline themselves into sitting quietly as they are susposed to do? Either way, I just don't understand it anymore. So it will be interesting to see what the premies express on Pia's site. Perhaps they will explain it to me.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:51:59 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: sjimsander@aol.com
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: An Open Debate In Search Of Respondents
Message:
Hey Michael-

Thanks for your clear, rational and thoughtful letter.
I've been around since 1972, and recently (Jan.1) wrote a series of letters to EV and my local community (Chapel Hill, NC).

They were similar in tone and content to yours, although rather lengthy.

The first response was something akin to 'go meditate, brother'.
There was no second response, after repeated phone messages and e-mails from me.

Their response, or lack of response, and a subsequent 2 hour phone conversation with Ira Woods spoke volumes to me, and explained more to me about what they are all about than anything else could have.

Also, the many sincere responses from people on EPO who want to see an honest discussion take place, was encouraging.

I would love it if you would feel free enough to contribute more about your perspective and history with the organizations around maharaji.
Although there is some raucous posting here at times, it is generally quite stimulating, honest and humorous as well.

I think you would find, like Michael Dettmers did, that a sincere post like yours will be met with honest, forthright questions and answers from people who are trying to understand a signifigant period in their lives.

It's a shame that maharaji, the one who could really help out the most on this matter, chooses to stay silent, when his input, if sincere, could really help to clear up so much of the harmful effect he has had on people's lives.

Thanks again, Michael,
Jim Sander
Chapel Hill, NC

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:13:58 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: What did Ira have to say?
Message:
Hi Jim. Two hours is a long time. Can you share any of the content of that conversation with Ira?
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:05:51 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Jim S...go meditate brother ..
Message:
but before you do... did you post about the 2 hour phone call on here? If you did it'll be in the archives.....so if you did ....when (approx) was that?

Cheers

Dermot

PS ...and if you didn't...care to expand?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:44:45 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: It must have been one hell of a journey
Message:
for all those years, and for all the personal adjustments to the creeping conflicts that finally woke you up.

Congratulations on the courage to change.

Your direct experiences of M and the EV scene, were you to share them, would be more than merely entertaining. They would put into high relief what is usually denied or explained away, and thereby help many, many others just now going through their own wake-up calls.

We've all had to deal with cringing-on-the-inside-but-putting-on-a-brave-face when trying to stay loyal to the whole bizarre business.

It's the stuff that made us cringe that we need to share, to compare notes, to get a clear picture and growing confidence that the decision to leave is safe, sane and liberating.

You may already know this perfectly well. It's for the others still struggling, lurking here, that your unique perspective will really be effective.

So welcome! And thank you for your straightforward post both to Pia and to this Forum.

Best,
C.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:47:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Hi Michael.
Message:
It will be interesting to see if Pia responds to any of these letters.

It's good to see you post on the forum.

I hope you don't mind if I take advantage of your presence here and ask you a question.

Around a year ago I heard that a few people resigned from the Elan Vital PR team because they realised they'd been asked to release misleading information on Jagdeo. Do you know anything about this and are you one of these folk?

Thanks,

Anth the curious.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:29:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Really, Michael? What was THAT like?
Message:
For those of you who don't know me, I've been involved on and off with DLM and EV since 1973 and up until last year was on the international PR team.

Michael,

What was that like? How'd you leave and all that? If you don't mind, I'm sure everyone'd find your story super interesting. I know I would.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:05:36 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really, Michael? What was THAT like?
Message:
ditto jim...share more please michael, thanks.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:53:45 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Answers to most of the above
Message:
Firstly, Anth, I wasn't involved in a response to the Jagdeo issue; I thought that was mostly handled by Glen from your part of the world. I haven't had much contact with the PR team for over a year, so if any departures happened for that reason, I missed them.

My departure from that team was due to the question asked at the time of the so-called 'clean-up': was I prepared to put in the necessary dedication? I thought about it seriously and decided 'No', so I withdrew from the international and Australian PR teams.

If you're involved in a PR team for a so-called benevolent cause, you have to take as read the premises I have now rejected (unless you're a completely cynical bastard, of course).In my opinion most of the people on the teams were sincere and likeable, and in some cases interested in questioning the public image of Mr Rawat and his organisation. Any direct thrust to change the PR approach would get diluted in the rounds of national contacts, instructor comments and I assume by Mr Rawat's hand, as well. Looking back, it is a surprisingly unwieldy organisation for something relatively small.

My departure from Mr Rawat's world altogether has only come about in the last few months. It was precipitated by a training session with the man himself, subsequent conversations with good friends who had exited, and a good, hard look at the logic and credibility of it all.

Having had a life mostly separate from the organisation for the last 20 years, the break has not been as painful as it obviously has been for many here. No real dark nights of the soul, just a few restless hours of reflection. Nevertheless, it is a big step after 27 years of faithful acceptance.

My involvement in the 70s was a lot more committed. I was the editor of the Australian premie magazine, The Golden Age, and got called to Denver in 1976 and, when all the other writers left, ended up editing Divine Times and And It Is Divine simultaneously! Shortly after, there was a call for all fulltime staff to join the ashram. I decided I would fry in there, and returned to Australia instead. My other claim to early premie fame was writing the lyrics to 'Surdas The Gardener', which still has some currency. 'What will you give for the flower which grows untouched by death?' Quite a lot, until you discover the plant variety rights aren't exclusive.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 12:33:44 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Surdas the gardener?! AAAARRRRGGH!!
Message:
No offence Michael. I dreaded and hated that pompous epic.
I too was a premie composer back then. I too have some skeletons in my musical closet so really, don't take offence.
But surdas the gardener?!. You have a lot to answer for.
I must go and recover.
love Bryn
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:37:21 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Surdas the gardener?! AAAARRRRGGH!!
Message:
'Pompous epic' is a fairly accurate description, though it doesn't go on quite as long as Macarthur Park (which, I admit, has more intriguing lyrics).

You'll be happy to know I didn't pursue songwriting as a profession. I hope you feel better after your rest.

I personally liked Doug Bernard's 'If they can make penicillin out of old moldy cheese, Goom Mraji can make a devotee out of you!'

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:37:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: McArthur Park .... can't stop laughing (nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 03:05:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: You wrote ''Surdas The Gardener?''
Message:
The most poetical and intelligent of all premie songs. Did you also write the music? Hauntingly lovely.

All that romantic Hindu mumbo-jumbo arrived so serendipitously in our LSD enlivened imaginations but, like all fairy tales, it disappeared in a puff of magic smoke.

''What will you give for the flower which grows untouched by death?''

In the oldest story extant (The Epic of Gilgamesh) Gilgamesh finds the Flower of Everlasting Life only to have it stolen by a snake. But Gilgamesh returns to Uruk ''wise and strong'' and lives to be a great king and do much good for his people.

In spite of not attaining immortality he learned much in his search for it. I hope you did. I did.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:13:52 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: samhardy2002@yahoo.com
To: PatC
Subject: You wrote ''Surdas The Gardener?''
Message:
Hey, it's been a long, strange and exciting trip.

Lindsay Field wrote the music. He and Kim O'Leary wrote some beautiful songs in the 70s and sang them beautifully. They're still both active musicians.

Did you see the recent movie of Gilgamesh, in which Christopher Lambert (?) turns out to be the son of the monster?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:32:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Lambert in Gilgamesh?
Message:
No, I didn't see that movie. I'll look for it. What's the title? You mean Lambert turns out to be the son of Humbaba? Or was it pure Hollywood? No long speech by Utnapishtim about the futility of seeking immortality? I bet there was no homosexual scene between Gilgamesh and Enkidu (whom ''he loved like a wife.'')

Yes, Michael, what a long strange trip it's been and I'm still crazy after all these years too. Like you (it appears) I also dropped out of the cult for a while (17 years) but went back to ''participate in a synchronized way'' at the beginning of last year when it seemed there was some type of glasnost or perestroika occurring.

I went back because I enjoyed meditating a lot and thought Rawat had the secret recipe only to find that he did not and that he was the biggest obstacle in the way of ''propagation'' (yuk!)

So I guess I can blame you for keeping me in the cult by writing a song that melted my heart. ;)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 23:46:07 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Lambert in Gilgamesh?
Message:
The title is Gilgamesh and yes, it is pure Hollywood FX. I thought the monster's name was Grendel, but I must admit I haven't read Gilgamesh in years.

I wouldn't say I dropped out of the cult at all (until now, that is), I was just peripheral to its activities.

And yes, I take all the blame for your continuing devotion. You may now sue me for damages caused by passive breathing.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 01:21:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Don't take ALL the blame, Michael
Message:
When I first went to satsang and heard Lila I was a goner. Yes, I was peripheral too. Didn't ''participate'' physically but only financially.

GRENDEL! My god are sure it wasn't a Disney movie. Did it have any good fights, car chases and explosions? I like my actions movies really over the top.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:06:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: YOU wrote that?
Message:
Surdas the Gardener?

Good one -- for it's genre, of course.

Michael, any interesting interactions with the cult as or after you left?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:10:00 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: r.e. Intl. PR team. What was THAT like? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:46:49 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Michael - succinct and spot on letter !! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:26:52 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Excellent Michael (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:20:49 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Michael Mc
Subject: Welcome Michael - excellent and well spoken. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:00:53 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: I am very glad that you chose to post this letter
Message:
Thank you, Michael, for being so decent, calm, sensible and civilized. You're a long-termer, like many of us who have recently started to post here, and probably, like us, hung in there because you believed that the cult would evolve and eventually even achieve a little of it's stated purpose: to bring people together in peace and joy.

I doubt if anything can be done by either Mr Rawat or his devoted servants to ever salvage any credibility in the west. He is his own worst enemy. The more people like Pia and ELK and EV push the infallibility of the Master nonsense the more cult-like it will be perceived.

It is a no win situation for Mr Rawat in the west and hopefully Indians will also soon see that there is absolutely no need for self-aggrandizing gurus and their primitive, superstitious version of yoga designed to enrich and glorify themselves.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:31:20 (GMT)
From: eBay Alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: People Magazine, 6/16/75 Avec Embattled Maharaji
Message:
People Magazine, dated June 16, 1975, with an article about 'Maharaji, Embattled Guru.'

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1436440024

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:18:35 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: eBay Alert
Subject: There's also a 'Living Master Quote Book'
Message:
Circa 1978 on ebay now. You can probably get it for 9.95
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:19:54 (GMT)
From: eBay Alert
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Video of Glastonbury Festival Avec Maharaji
Message:
Videos of the first ever Glastonbury Festival are for sale on eBay (for 9.99 pounds). The Seller is in the UK, so any Brits interested, go for it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1436050980

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:39:34 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia,a bit about american slang,like 'It aint so..'
Message:
Dear Pia-

I recognize that you are not an American, and English is probably not your first language, so I will attempt to explain to you what I believe is the origin of your 'It aint so' quote that you have decided to make your web site name.

My understanding goes like this:

In the early 1900's there was a professional baseball team called the 'Chicago Black Sox' (today the team is called the Chicago White Sox).
They were in the World Series and the entire city of Chicago was delirious because their team made the final championship series.

However, the Black Sox lost the World Series to another team, and while the city mourned the loss, it was discovered that certain members of the Black Sox had conspired to 'throw' the series (ie. purposely lose to the other team), in order to get money from gamblers who bet against them.

Of course, this revelation threw the entire city into more turmoil, as the players were hauled into court, and the case began.
Eventually, it was determined that indeed many of the Black Sox players DID throw the series.
This was illegal, and they were thrown out of professional baseball for the rest of their lives. This meant FOREVER, and was one of the most extreme punitive measures ever taken in professional sports against participants of that sport.

When 'Shoeless Joe Jackson', the favorite player of many Chicago fans, came out of the courtroom to face reporters, a ten year old boy burst in front of Shoeless Joe, his idol,with a newspaper in hand.
The headline proclaimed 'Chicago Black Sox Throw World Series!'.

The cute little boy, tears streaming down his face, implores Shoeless Joe, with this famous line:

SAY IT AINT SO,JOE.....SAY IT AINT SO....

However, Shoeless Joe, the boys idol, couldn't say anything.
He couldn't defend himself, because it was all true.
He hung his head and turned from the boy, unable to look the boy in the eye.

The boy burst into tears, as the court guards ushered Shoeless Joe away into the police van.

So, Pia, I believe this is the origin of your uniquely American 'It aint so' phrase that you have chosen to be your banner for your web site defending maharaji.

Most Americans, at least baseball fans (the national pastime), will recognize the real menaing of your phrase.

Does it take a genius to realize that:

M is shoeless Joe (in more ways than one, with the toe kissing)
You are the 10 year old boy, saying 'say it aint so, maharaji, say it aint so')
EPO is the newspaper with the headline.
Public opinion is the court.

And you are the only one who still doesn't get it.....

Sorry to be the one to tell you....
But it IS so...

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:54:29 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: well done la-ex
Message:
I knew of this story also but did not know the full details. And I'm just a plain old limey who knows next to nothing about American baseball. So I was surprised Pia did not know the meaning behind the 'It aint so' phrase.

Or does she subconsciously know as you so rightly said 'It is so'?

love kev.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 16:57:04 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: my vote's for Shoeless Joe - fact: he didn't cheat
Message:
Joe took the $10,000 bookie money, then tried to give it back. He also batted well during the series, was flawless in the field, and ran the bases hard. On the contrary, the other starting White Sox players threw the series games -- striking out, getting caught in rundowns, making catching and throwing errors, etc.

So, recognizing his mistake Joe tried to do his best on the field - for the sake of the sport. Then, he took a fall, along with the other players who were banned for life from organized baseball.

In some respects, perhaps Joe got a raw deal. But the new commissioner [a retired judge], the government, and the other owners wanted to make an example of those guys, so that gambling and corruption wouldn't tarnish the sport.

Now, in this other case here, the so-called perfect master sant guru humanitarian person has gotten a rawat deal - tens of millions in ill-gained tax-free luxuries and greenback liquidity! Remember: 'No cheat, no deceit.' No remorse for abusing the donations, no apologies for the cult abuses, no 'fessing up to false or inflated official representations...

Yeah, 'say it ain't so,' indeed.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:57:13 (GMT)
From: Susan thoroughly out of
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: hibernation? A suggestion for Katie, Brian and JM
Message:
Why don't you make a webpage out of what LA ex has just written, and then at the end have a link to 'Say it ain't so'...put it with the other links to Guru sites on ex premie org. We ought to challenge Pia to link to ex.premie org. so people can read what the hate filled monsters are saying!
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:38:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: GOOD job la-ex -- and no one can! -- n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:12:35 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Brilliant and accurate! Cross-cultural confusions
Message:
make for great comedy (or danger!)

Thanks for the background. Pop - social - political history buffs unite!

Reminds me of the (apocryphal?) story about the auto company trying to market a car called the NOVA in South America. They forgot that NOVA means No Va ('won't go') in the native language.

Also, NEVER give the 'a-ok' hand sign in Greece. You'll probably be beaten up or worse. (So I've been told.)

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:55:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Great post (nt)
Message:
not a word but five
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 05:05:47 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: la-ex, you've done it again 'It Is So!'
Message:
Nice piece of analysis. It sure is interesting how obvious a mistake the aint so site is - bad PR move all around.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:03:55 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: loved that LA ex...
Message:
I knew the meaning and that there was a lot of irony in her choice of words...but that much...my god that is better than the Nigel's tale of the dancing hippos.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:11:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Communisim, J-M and rawat
Message:
I haven't followed on the issue of communisim in France lately but reading Pia, one gets the impression that above from being a leader of an abscure evil group, J-M is also a bankrupt communist and he's hitting under the belt.

Am also not aware what party does Pia support, but in general you would think the opposite will be the right wing party, unless she is a socialist of course (it's that what everyone in Europe is).

Well, what am trying to get at is to determine what's rawats political inclinations. Seeing that he doesn't belive in almost anything, he wants to rule everthing, he is also a lyier, thinks he is god..etc, I presume he is a nationalist, in other words an extreme hindu facist.

Salam-medling politician

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:27:39 (GMT)
From: Sir David King of England
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The politics of politics
Message:
Strange that you should mention that, Herr Sausage, since we have an election here tomorrow in which it's seems practically 100% certain that Tony Hair will again be elected Prime Minister.

You see the main opposition party leader, William Hague, has a major disadvantage - he has no hair.

The other main party leader has a good name, he is called 'Charles Kennedy' and he should do well even though he speaks with a broad Scottish accent. He'll get my vote, anyway.

Mr Rawat is of the Brahmin caste, I believe and would not vote for any socialist type party. I reckon he would vote Republican in America and against his brother, in India. I wonder how little Prem Pal felt when his big brother was a big shot minister in the Indian government? I believe that government had some sort of scandal which helped them lose power, I can't quite recall what it was now.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:36:18 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon,co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Snake oil.. the song version (semi-OT)
Message:
(off-topic? Not sure, but not OT if you recognise ‘New Age’ thought as the compost in which mutant bonzais like M best flourish)
>>

Snake Oil - song version – imagine a medium paced (100 bpm) Cajun groove thang…

Oh the New Age is a-coming
It's right around the bend
So all aboard li'l children
For a game of 'let's pretend'
With tarot pack in pocket
With dowsing rod in hand
Just let the spirit guide you
To an all-holistic land…

There's witches in the woodland
There's U-Fo's in the sky
Crop circles on the hillside
And there’s books to tell you why
There's druids 'neath the standing stones
Practising their craft
You'd have to practice night and day
To look so bloody daft…

Here's snake oil in the morning
To ease your ailing mind
And why not shove a crystal
Where the morning never shines?
300 years since Newton
Have we nothing more to show
Than a world of quacks and charlatans
All touting for your dough?

Did you ever get the feeling
That you've been here before?
Our past-life hypnotherapy
Will take you back once more
Were you Ramases the Pharoah
Or a monkey-puzzle tree?
We'll have you home for tea-time
And a hundred dollar fee…

Come try our patent remedies
Here's homeopathy
With no active ingredients
The naked eye can see
The weaker the dilution
The more it stings your purse
At least we're safe in saying
It can't make things any worse…

It's snake oil in the morning
To ease your failing mind
And why not shove a crystal
Where the morning never shines?
200 years of reason
Have we nothing more to show
Than a world of quacks and charlatans
All touting for your dough?

Come bow before the Master
Receive his holy word
There's hundreds here to choose from
Each and every one's the Lord
A lifetime's loyal service
Will one day surely pay
To buy his marble mansion
Down on Acapulco Bay…

Oh the New Age is a-coming
Like the Dark Ages of yore
Where fear and superstition
Shall be the natural law
But if you can't beat 'em. join 'em
Thar's gold in them thar hills
So roll up everybody for your
Spells and bells and pills…

Here’s snake oil in the morning
To ease your flailing mind
And why not shove a crystal
Where the morning never shines?
100 years since Darwin
Have we nothing more to show
Than a world of quacks and charlatans
All touting for your dough?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:41:05 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Another verse ...
Message:
And if you come to Findhorn
We'll tell you how to be
Just visualise a wad of cash
Oh so creatively
But if you're from the Third World
Well that's your karmic lot
You should be happy anyway
With the pitence that you've got

(Homages to Shakti Gawain, and a particularly lovely Findhorn inhabitee who's quote I came across during my research ... about how happiness was not dependent on anything and Third World folks could be happy living in a cardboard box)

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:55:45 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Love it...!
Message:
Actually, since the verses are in pairs, I could now reinstate the following verse which I cut because it didn't fit the structure very well. (but like findhorn, the milk reference will probably be lost on non-UK readers)

Just need a forth variant chorus now... '400 years since...(?)' bugger - 'Michaelangelo' doesn't scan. Hmmm...

>>>
You can take tea with the swami
In robes of flowing silk
Too bad the holy statues
Have polished off the milk
You can join the Solar Temple
Be it only for a while
Dontcha know that ritual suicide
Is very much in style...

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 12:08:35 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Hey Mr L
Message:
I was thinking before about 200 years of reason, but it's actually 400 years since The Age of Reason (Descartes and all that cogito ergo sum stuff)... So you could 200 years since... Immanuel Kant (no,perhaps not, that one doesn't exactly scan!!!)...
Could do... 200 years enlightened... but of course that phrase now has a different conotation!!!xxx

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 07:19:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: You forgot the ley lines, wicca, aromatherapy
Message:
and moldy echinacea but the rest was pure poetry. Thanks Larkin. And now I know who you are. You've sure got a wonderfully warped way with words.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:18:57 (GMT)
From: Moldy WArp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You forgot the ... Ha Ha very cryptic Pat ! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 04:19:04 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Snake oil.. the song version (semi-OT)
Message:
Larkin, I think that 'Folsom Prison Blues' by Jonny Cash works with this.

Well done.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:42:57 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hey Larkin ...Mickey...
Message:
Great stuff Larkin :)) also Mickey....yeah the blues goes with it but also many Irish folk songs including ' Wearing of the Green' :))

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:33:30 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Hey guys it's already got a tune but ta anyway and
Message:
Dermot... can't remember if I sent U this new Email address. how ya doin' me old codger???xxx
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:49:34 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Hey Moldy...
Message:
What's with this 'old codger' business? .....how about ' Young at hear cool dude ' or.....awww forget it ....old codger'll do for now.

Right, I've gotyour new email....that's easy enough to remeber without lifting a finger further :))

Actually I will email ya ....let's just say when You least expect it ....that way I won't feel guilty of neglect :)

Glad you and Nigel seem to be forming an ever closer union....

I'm Ok ....all work, rest ......with the play at bay just at the moment :( ....nahh things are fine really.....

Cheers me dear

Love, Dermot

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:18:43 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Hey Moldy...sorry Dermot you super cool dude!!
Message:
will await your mail when I am least expecting it - if that's not a contradiction in terms! Now must log off and do something!!!
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:58:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page
Message:
The new one reads:

The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of his former students who for a variety of reasons no longer feel that he is a benefit in their lives. Some of these held positions of major responsibility within the organization and are now claiming that for many years they were unwittingly working for a cult. In fact they were responsible for forming and implementing the very policies and practices they are now criticizing. Although we respect the right of anyone to form and express their own opinions about anything, we view the intentional spreading of rumors and false allegations at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices. At worst it is a cynical and cruel effort to influence public opinion through unfair defamation and misrepresentation of a person and his legitimate work.

The first version was this:

The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.

All of these now claim that they were unwittingly working for a cult while in fact they were instrumental in forming and implementing the very organizational policies and practices they are now criticizing.

We view their desire to spread rumors and false allegations against Maharaji and Elan Vital at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices.

At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers. If there was a cult in those days, it existed in the minds of people like this fueled by an ambition to make Maharaji and his work conform to their own private visions.

Comments?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 02:17:47 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page
Message:
Dear Jim

A few responses.

Firstly as with all specious arguments there are truisms mixed with nonsense. And it is true that, apart from you, the other two were largely responsible for significant bits of his organisation which were as reprehensible then, as they are now. I can't say either of them have really apologised in a direct simple manner (mind you I haven't read every post of theirs)- but they have expressed their concern for their own works and have very generously given of their experiences from that time and their reflections since.

Secondly this type of disclosure, like some of the stuff on EV, would ring alarm bells in the minds of many naive readers.

Where she says 'In fact they were responsible for forming and implementing the very policies and practices they are now criticizing'. This is like one of those questions a parent puts to kids. Not 'Did you do it' but 'When are you going to clean it up?'. The statement implies that the practices are going on now, that MJ was and is a schmuck for allowing it to happen.

This is also implicit in the statement 'at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices' which can be seen as implying that they definitely did something wrong, and as per the previous quote, it is still going on, and right under the nose of MJ who was clearly incapable of doing anything about it.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 06:29:35 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Damn, I'm going to miss the ex-lover label
Message:
'At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers.'

Gee, I wonder what 'at the very least' would be labeled?

As for being a 'frustrated ex-lover' only M's blonds know for sure.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:53:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So where's the retraction and apology?
Message:
I assume your first and only warning about this wasn't just an idle threat, Jim?

Watcha gonna do now, matey?

Nige the avid couch spectator

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:16:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Er, in your dreams? Heh, heh (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:36:49 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i.e. Spin doctoring the Wheel of Misfortune... (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:29:45 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page
Message:
chickens. Can't stand for a good fight. I said they were 'loosers'.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:15:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops! Old news. Sorry (nt)
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Better, but still inaccurate
Message:
I'm glad our (and other's) e-mails had SOME effect...

I still object to the statement:
Some of these held positions of major responsibility within the organization and are now claiming that for many years they were unwittingly working for a cult. In fact they were responsible for forming and implementing the very policies and practices they are now criticizing.

Objection #1 -
I still feel like chopped liver. I NEVER held a position of major, or even minor, responsibility in DLM or DV. The biggest thing I ever did was direct people what food line to go to at Millenium. I don't think Brian even did that much. Sir David guarded a slice of cheese and did some inept gardening - not sure what Roger did, except I know it wasn't 'major responsibility'. Jim, you did the dishes in the ashram - and a few other things :) - but, as you have stated: no major responsibilities. Jean-Michel was a part-time instructor who did what M told him to do. This MIGHT be construed as major responsibility, but I think not.

Objection #2 -
Has ANYONE here ever claimed they were 'unwittingly working for a cult'? I think most of us would say that we were working for something that didn't turn out the way we hoped or expected that it would. Period.

In short - it still needs revision. And I really hope she reads my letter - and all the other letters!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:20:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: very high up officials of EV, very top positions
Message:
Katie--
I get such a chuckle out of hearing about your 'high position' in EV. Me too, I never did jack, except polish an arti tray in the ashram and watch some kids at a festival.
And I forgot about Sir Dave guarding the cheese--ha ha!
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:39:56 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Katie H
Subject: Katie! I resent that. And you directed me to...
Message:
the wrong food line at Millenium. I remember it now, oh so vividly! I ended up with food poisoning and missed out on the darshan with Mata Ji.

not sure what Roger did, except I know it wasn't 'major responsibility'

How do you know that? Huh?

For all you know I might have been Maharaji's vegetable gardener tilling and enriching the very soil that would grow the food that went into his perfect little mouth with precious animal excreta. Did I say that right? Or is that grammatically incorrect somehow? Ah, shit, how should I know? I never went to kollege.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:09:40 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Sorry, Rog - forgot about your chicken farm! :)
Message:
My humble apologies - snicker.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:20:08 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page
Message:
Although we respect the right of anyone to form and express their own opinions about anything, we view the intentional spreading of rumor and false allegations at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices. At worst it is a cynical and cruel effort to influence public opinion through unfair defamation and misrepresentation of a person and his legitimate work.

Isn't this just as offensive? Just Personally? Legally? p.s.
I'm ready to challenge them on this remark so I'll send Pia a message after I read a few responses.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 10:27:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Pia changed her 'About the Critics' page
Message:
This is definitely wrong:

'the intentional spreading of rumor and false allegations'

Where are the false allegations?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:04:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just what I would have done on receipt of your
Message:
letter or any well-written letter from a lawyer who presented his argument logically. Comments? Yes.

This sentence is unprovable and conjectural: ''In fact they were responsible for forming and implementing the very policies and practices they are now criticizing.''

In fact it can be argued that the testimony on EPO of those who ''held positions of major responsibility'' in the cult shows quite clearly that the advice that they offered Rev Rawat was disrespected and ignored.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:51:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: And ANOTHER letter to Pia!
Message:
Dear Pia:

Thank you for removing your absurd accusation against me from your 'About the Critics' page. I won't press you for an apology because I can see from your site update that you're just not up that level of personal responsiblity. Can I help?

Here's what you've written:

Global stand: Thousands of visitors in the first days

It-aint-so.org went live on June 1st 2001, at 00:30 GMT+1, since then we have had an encouraging response, in the first 24 hours alone we had over 1,100 unique visitors.

The site has been up and online for only five days now, and already people all over the world have come to read and share. We have had an average of 900 visitors a day, and in total 3,439 unique visitors.

You know, of course, that most of the people reading your site are ex-premies, like myself, having a laugh at your expense. Not sure if we're the 'unique' ones you're talking about but, then, we're all unique in our own special way, don't you think? I'm sure that Maharaji said something like that once. Or maybe it was the opposite. Maybe he said both. Whatever ...

We are constantly making improvements to the site so that content, features, navigation and structure will allow for the best experience. The site will have major updates on the design and technical side within the next week, so please be patient.

What is the cult obsession with the word and CONCEPT of 'experience'? You're not offering sex, Pia. It's an informational site that's supposed to refute specific allegations ex-premies have made against Maharaji and his cult. When politicians, academics, philosophers, scientists or lawyers debate matters, it's substantive truth that matters. What's the truth of the matter? What are the facts? Premies, on the other hand, have adopted Maharaji's white-noise jargon that obscures and prevents the search for that truth. That's why, after all, Maharaji himself would never dream of addressing our allegations. And that's why, sadly for you, you'll never give us the chance to address your own.

But I have a more important concern. Last year sometime ELK posted a satsang excerpt from your cult leader in which he said that the best way to deal with criticism is to ignore it. Have you forgotten that bit of sage, albeit cowardly, advice? If not, what the hell you doing, girl? Maharaji told you exactly how to handle allegations against him and here you are doing quite the opposite. Does Maharaji know you're doing this, undermining his courageous leonine stand amongst the jackals? Has he simply changed his mind? If so, please let us all know. If not, then you're apparently disrespecting him greatly by jumping into the fray he directed you to steer clear of.

Thanks to all the people who have helped - and are helping - in this process, without those this would be impossible.

That includes us too, I take it?

Tomorrow, the first readers responses will be posted, and the word is that new pictures are on their way. Please continue to check the site for further updates.

Unless you open the dialogue and allow critics to comment as well, you're going to have no credibility whatsoever. The more supporting letters you publish, the more pathetic you'll appear. Really, think of it. Can you think of a single closed shop, such as your own, that has credibility in this respect? I can't. And, too bad for you, neither will all but the most entrenched and indiscriminate premies as time goes by.

Pia, ELK made the same mistake, I promise you. They chickened out on having any real, open forum and thus became an embarrassment, not enhancement, for the cult. Do you have any idea how many premies have left the cult because of ELK alone? People aren't stupid, you know. If they've got anything approaching an operating mind (i.e. the ability to think and, yes, doubt a bit), they're repulsed by the sickly-sweet nothings that pass as human expression.

Same for EV's site; same for Maharaji's. All closed shops, all blatant whitewashes, and all more effective than you'd ever want to know if highlighting the cult environment of 'Maharaji's World'.

It's up to you but, I warn you, if you don't open your site up to some actual dialogue, you're going to hurt Maharaji much more than you'll ever help him.

Love, as always,

Jim Heller

former ashram grunt

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 09:10:02 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And ANOTHER letter to Pia!
Message:
Haahah beter entertainment with this second communication.

A good balance of cutting insight, sarcasm, wit, and bare faced cheek.

should really piss her off :) .....THIS MATTER IS TOO BLACK & WHITE, TOO DAMN IMPORTANT for the likes of you to be so flippant :))

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:08:21 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ashram grunt with bite!
Message:
Jim

Written in your own 'unique' style.

'We are constantly making improvements to the site so that content, features, navigation and structure will allow for the best experience....'

What's that about??? I heard that type of talk again and again. Boy does it ring bells....

When I read that I had an image of a 'small group of concerned people' having a meeting to come up with the 'perfect' wording and pictures for approval by those higher up. It went on for hours, and afterwards minutes were distributed to same group of small people. Ahh the memories....

'You know, I went to Pia's site the other day, and it was just so beautiful, the experience, you know, of navigating around that site. The content, features and structure are so simple and beautiful, just like k and m, you know.'

I would think more appropriate wording in keeping with its stated aims, and as you pointed out, would be .....'to allow for the best presentation of the known FACTS'.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:07:55 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm getting worried.
Message:
The longer I hang on the Ex site, the more I'm starting to enjoy your posts. Loved the 'end of Magnolia' image. (See Mountain View post , below, of Jim's.) I pictured myself hitting the top of your car and sliding down your windshield in my sensitive, new-age slime. Very unfair of you, but - very hilarious.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:18:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ouch!
Message:
You said: ''....we're all unique in our own special way, don't you think? I'm sure that Maharaji said something like that once. Or maybe it was the opposite. Maybe he said both.''

Yes, he did say both. He often said, ''You're a unique individual.'' But he also said: ''I travel around the world and I see that everybody's exactly the same.'' And, ''I don't know your name and I don't want to know your name.''

Talking out of both sides of his mouth. He probably said he didn't want Pia's site and the pics were removed and then, after a few snorts, decided that he did. Poor old Pia needs to get ready for that roundabout ride that Connie so well described - the one that is going faster and faster until all the PWKs will be flung off except those with prehensile tails or suckers or claws.

I was just thinking today that the most distiguishing characteristic of Rev Rawat's deeply flawed personality is that he want's to keep his cake but wants to eat it too.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 21:20:45 (GMT)
From: Exie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Pias site is boring stuff
Message:
I heard that long enough.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:33:39 (GMT)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Latvian Night Revisited (before I forget)
Message:
I thought I’d post before the memory fades and the next crisis arises. First off—a huge thank you to Marianne for coordinating the evening. Please tell Rafael I so loved talking opera with him and totally appreciated his warmth and humour. Also, thank you, Selene, for asking me to go. Because I don’t post frequently anymore, I was afraid no one would know me (or might even dislike me for my pseudonyms on AG) . Unfounded fears, they were, for everyone was outgoing, friendly, and fascinating. What a bunch we are! So unique and yet we seem to have similar, recurring themes in our lives: seeking truth, hoping to make the world better, experiencing love, etc.

Funny how it worked out—Instead of finding “closure” in meeting you all, I found myself opened to new beginnings--the Fool Card in the Tarot Deck (and we all know I’m not into hooey hooey anymore). Fascinating, crazy, funny, artistic, brilliant, new friends.

A couple of things I wanted to say but never got a chance:
Joe Whalen, I wish we had gotten to talk more. You have always made me feel comfortable posting here, especially when I first showed up so paranoid that M would somehow know. I accept your compliments on my sense of humour. You really do shine—all that white-gold in your aura (oops, no hooey hooey over here).
Monmot, it was a pleasure to sit across from you at dinner. I felt like I’ve known you forever.
Susan, it was great getting to know you a little. Again, I wish I had more time to talk with you.
PatC., I hope I didn’t bore you too much with pictures of my grandchild, even though she is probably the most beautiful child in the world.
Roger, you know I love you.
Mark and Billie, synchronicity in action. You two restored my faith in marriage.
Brian and Paula, thank you so much for your patience and for the rides around town. I love the CD you gave us, Brian (I’m the one who got to take it home). Paula you are truly grace-in-motion. (and so very tactful).

Thank you all.
eb/Ellen/Ophelia/Heidi

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 19:45:13 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Latvian Night Revisited (before I forget)
Message:
Hey eb:

I, too, greatly enjoyed meeting you and discussing your many fascinating and well-spoken personalities. It was great to finally meet Selene in person. Actually, it was a gas to meet so many fabulous and articulate people and, at last, to be able to put faces to the names.

I also want to iterate my thanks to Marianne for arranging the festivities, and definitely my thanks go to Pat C., Andy, and Chuck for giving me a ride back to my abode. That was very generous of you guys, it was very much appreciated.

Thanks to everyone who attended for being such wonderful and interesting human beings. It was quite restorative to my ever diminishing faith in (wo)mankind.

Monmot

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:23:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: That was just so I could spend more time with you
Message:
Monmot, I hope I didn't embarrass you when we were introduced and I blurted out: ''Oh, my god, you're beautiful!''

Sometimes I regret swearing off women. Yeah, I know - you're amrried.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:41:18 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Embarassed? Definitely Not.....
Message:
I'd be insane to be embarassed. How sweet of you.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 08:39:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Well, now I'll embarass you
Message:
You really are gorgeous but I'm sure you've got an inkling of that. A smoldering brunette with a touch of circumspection. Umumum!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:13:57 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Now you've got me....
Message:
I'm embarassed now. :>>

But when I need my next esteem booster, I'll certainly call on you.

Ciao for now.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 18:55:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Anytime, Monmot. I hope you blushed............ NT
Message:
j
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 20:07:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: hey Monmot
Message:
Hows the pants? I always liked wearing black as well, and now I may know why.
sigh. Am paying my dues heavily with a cold from hell but I enjoyed talking to you as well.
CYA, am off to the doctor.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 08:29:55 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: eb
Subject: yes, and we raised thousands of dollars!!!
Message:
We truly are a well financed international organization and nothing will stop us now! Nothing!

However, we must keep focused on the Prime Directive1 and not get lost in all of this friendship, respect and hooey hooey stuff.

The photos, all of them, will be posted at dawn. (nah, just kidding. I don't want to die.)

Yeah, the kids are alright! We're just a little older now and a little wiser, but we've got plenty of life and love left. We've got ourselves and each other now that we've left Humpty Dumpty on top of his great wall. The last laugh and the last breath will be ours. We will out-live him no matter how much money and love he has stolen.

God bless us, every one.

1. Prime Directive: Be yourself and enjoy life.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 22:07:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hi Roger.
Message:
Maybe you can pay my invoice, for my expenses for the lecture I gave on the station at Oakland, at 2 am, after the Latvian meeting just over a year ago.

Anth, after dinner speeches, weddings, christenings, funerals, children's parties, woodwork, typing, gardening, odd jobs, blocked drains, counselling, aromatherapy, massage, discover the artist within, kiln fireman, postman, presently seeking work.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:07:01 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: AJW
Subject: We missed you this time, AJW.
Message:
And I still have all those pictures of you.

You're beautiful, Anth, but I don't know about those speeches on subway platforms at two in the morning. Made no sense at all, I'm afraid.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:05:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: I also need to thank Marianne and Rafael
Message:
for being the most wonderful gracious hosts. I was so fired up after meeting all you guys that I forgot my manners.

Marianne (and Rafael) your warmth and generosity were so real and your enthusiasm so genuine that I felt as if I was visiting my mom or some friend that I had known for 30 years. Thank you.

Ellen, I loved looking at your grandchild's pics and wished that I could have talked more opera with you too.

Selene, what a treat it is to finally have a face to imagine when I read your posts. And what a naughty face it is.

I've listened to Brian's CD too and it is fabulous. I will email you Brian.

And Francesca, I also have not thanked you for the little Zulu carving which has now joined my collection of other African carvings.

Just thank you all, for being the best and bravest and most sincere people I have had the pleasure to meet in many years.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:17:21 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I'm am aren't I?
Message:
Truth is I was a nervous wreck about going and had too many tranqs and washed em down with wine. But even so, on a normal day, I am - Still - kinda naughty, am working on it. It's a rebel thing. I do believe the whole rebel rebel thing just finally gets old and boring BUT with a qualification:
Never let your spirit die. I heard some lyrics by a band Live yesterday that just captured my soul and took it to a lot of places, some painful some healing.

Love to you all.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:32:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You're a leprechaun, Selene
Message:
I guessed about the nerves. I need to take you under Thelma's wing for six months to give you some balls. You are too timid.

PatC, another rebel with lots of causes.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:37:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Training under Thelma - YES!!!
Message:
Would be the best possible thing that could ever happen to me at this stage of my life.
I really think so.

Wow. Sure would beat the hell out of all the years of nothing I learned at the Feeties of the Monster.

careful you may get an obsessive compulsive dishwasher gopi showing up at your door. oh forget the dishwashing part sorry.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:41:19 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You left you heart in San Francisco
Message:
I told you you would blossom here. Everywhere else in the world I am the really crazy fringe radical shit-stirrer. In SF I am practically a conservative old fogey compared to my fellow citizens. Move here.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 22:49:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: moving to San Francisco
Message:
OK I am. You talked me into it. I've got resumes out right now and I have learned and the cool stuff they want us computer types to grovel about so...
ok it's a joke. Pat I / we own are home and I am very spoiled by this, not quite ready to join the 1500 a month apartment life.

It's too bad, if it weren't for economics and a husband who thinks Tucson is heaven on earth, (well the area anyway) I think I would go there. Despite an uncomfortable, for me, level of hooey new age I do feel at home there - all the things you mentioned. I've visited often.

And think of legs I'd have what with walking on those hills and then there is the Thelma training as well.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 23:29:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: San Francisco, open your Golden Gates
Message:
Dream on - $1,500 a month apartment. That's what a garage costs. An 800 sq ft space (like you have) would be $3,000 a month. (My 850 sq ft beach cottage is a quarter of a mil.)

No where is perfect. For instance it is far too hot today - 90 degs. Yuk! Can't wait for the fog.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 00:06:45 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Golden Gates - yikes!
Message:
That is quite expensive geezus how does one buy a home, become a guru and dupe millions out of their followers or what?
I mean I'm told the cost of living is high here and we are looking for a house , bigger, in very nice condition, better hood with a pool and can still find one for around $150K

How do people do it? btw I wanted to tell you, I loved your word,
pornolized you used below in the pictures discussion.
Never heard that one before you are so funny! That is sort of what happened and me, being a sucker for attention, well....
let's just say I learned my lesson. cheers, sorry it's so hot
(that IS hot) it was so freaking cold by the bay when I was up there, no fair. We are having a cool day today, only 99 :)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 05:25:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Golden Gates - cost a fortune. Pornolizer OT
Message:
I have to pay dishwashers twelve bucks an hour cash or $15 with tax withholding. Dotcommies earn $40 to $100 or more consulting. I bought my house quite a while ago and couldn't afford if I had to buy it now.

I did not invent the word pornolized. You missed the Pornolizer brouhaha. On Sat pm just before Latvian Night, Jim posted a site called pornolize where you punch in the url and it turned it into porn. We all had fun pornolizing Rawat's satsang etc.

Then I made the mistake of pornolizing Deradune's satsang and she had a hissy and said that she would no longer read my posts but that I had convinced her to keep posting. Go figure.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:27:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: yes thanks all and Marianne I just answered
Message:
your email.
I'm exhausted, can't imagine why :) Talk to you soon
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:06:02 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Anybody got any photos?
Message:
Those would be fun to see, though it's even more nerve wracking having your photo put up on the forum than it is posting!
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:35:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: nerve wracking having your photo put up on forum
Message:
BOLLOCKS! Let's post another round of pics. Unlike Rev Rawat, I've got nothing to hide.

Several people took pics and I guess they are on their way here.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:44:37 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Go for it - get those photos up here xxx nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:52:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: I was sending you ESP mail, Moldy, hoping you
Message:
would show up. What time is it there now? It is ten to six pm here. That way I'll know the time difference for that phone call.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:33:51 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I was sending you ESP mail, posting this at exactl
Message:
y 2-32 AM xxxxxxx
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:37:27 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Pat C
Subject: PS Pat It was exactly 1-52 am when you posted ESP
Message:
mail ... xxx will Email you again sooon babexxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:57:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: So it would be my bedtime if I were there and you
Message:
would be eating dinner here. It's tomorrow for you already but I am just getting ready to wine and dine tonight. 8 hours difference.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:02:16 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: So Sat night (SF) Sunday morning (Liverpool)
Message:
Looks like its a runner.... or alternatively... Sat night or wee small hours of Sunday morning (liverpool) ie now sort of time here (3-00am) = 7-oo pm Sat night in SF... can't believe I am actually trying to work this out after the amont of vodka I have consumed!!! (note failure of abstinense!)
PS Did you just get me E mail xxx
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:25:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Got your email. Excellent news. Will write later.
Message:
No room for NT so I'll just say probably the best time for me would be 11 am Sat or Sun which is 7pm for you.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:37:59 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: nerve wracking having your photo put up on forum
Message:
Please not mine or my spouse's. Some of us have mitigating circumstances which could cause quite a lot of trouble for us.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:43:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Every time a camera came out I would push everyone
Message:
else out of the way and grab the spotlight to show off my new American teeth but I didn't take any pics because several people had asked me not to.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:21:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Took my camera and didn't use it ! --n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:12:44 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I sure hope not
Message:
Please if you do I beg of you airbrush me out. I have safety reasons for this. really I do. Like losing it totally and getting committed again for one.

Really I did ask before coming that no one post my pics. I don't mind if others want theirs and others of course.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
Selene

(sounds like an advice for the lovelorn news column - ha what a laugh that would be)

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:38:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: But can't we post that one of you doing the hula
Message:
on the table in the restaurant?

Just kidding. Now I would object if pics like that were posted. Thank god I'm too old to be the life and soul of the party the way I used to be. The FA would have asked for the pics to be removed.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 14:48:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes the heart and soul (soles) of the party
Message:
I no longer have a copy of the last great party pic of me.

New Year's eve 1972. Bernal Heights at the top of the Daly City side of the hill (of course!). In a black velvet and taffeta dress, laying on my back in a pile of crap of my own making (I had just cleaned out cupboards, sinks and other things with almost incoherent space girl stand up comedy). I think some of it was food. You can see me holding my roommate Sid's hand. He always took care of us when we got too out there.

You can see me looking straight at the camera.

You can tell I can't see the camera, or anything in front of me.

My last acid trip, Owlsley from the Hell's Angels. This was not atypical, but we were a wild bunch. If you wanted a guaranteed party, folks said, just invite us. It'll happen.

Got K in April 1973 and became a sorta borta church lady in thrift store dresses. I sang pretty. DLM didn't know what to do with me. But the majority of us were pretty colorful -- I was just one of the 1973 San Francisco posies.

Love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:39:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: no no that was that other guy
Message:
Sorry I hate my pics on the net. I posted them twice over as many years and then went into a strange place about it. Not really paranoia, just felt it attracted shit to me, stuff that is the very last thing i need in my life.
Please I know you are joking but I am not.

ok gack, uh I mean back, to cold meds. am sick so take what I say - always - with a grain of panak panir or somethin new agey.

Just heard from a friend asked her if I could borrow what she said:

'Stand Behind Me New Agey Satan'

yep.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:03:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I know you aren't joking
Message:
I posted a pic on the net once and it got pornolized (quite flateringly I might add) and I went through a phase of feeling exposed? especially when I found my second ex-husband's pics on an Aussie porno site.

I recommend the South African cure for a cold. Go to bed with a hat and a bottle of brandy. Put the hat at the foot of your bed and drink the brandy. When you see two hats you are cured. At least - your hangover will be so bad that you won't notice that you have a cold the next day.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:10:33 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A question for you Pia.
Message:
A new quote from Pia’s site,
“An anti-cult law voted in France
Paris May 31, 2001: Today's newspapers in Paris reported on the passing of new legislation by the French Assembly that would allow the judicial system to dissolve a cult that is found to have committed the crime of mental manipulation against those in a state of ignorance or weakness. Under this new law, victims and their families would be allowed to prosecute the cult and be awarded damages.”

Can you please tell me if you consider M and EV not to be a cult in any way? Why are you making an issue of this new French law? And even if you do see yourself as being in a cult. Why are you worried about this new law? Because as you have stated the law will only “dissolve a cult that is found to have committed the crime of mental manipulation against those in a state of ignorance or weakness.” So by putting this on your site are you saying M and EV is guilty of any of these crimes.

Kev.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:25:30 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: A question for you Pia.
Message:
Hey excellent point! If no mental manipulation is taking place, which is what Maharaji apologists are always saying, why is this new legislation a threat?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:37:12 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Witch Trial
Message:
Well, it's sort of like telling the 'witches' at the Salem witchcraft trial. 'Hey if you aren't witches you got nothing to worry about!'
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:12:43 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: I don't understand
Message:
D_Thomas: Well, it's sort of like telling the 'witches' at the Salem witchcraft trial. 'Hey if you aren't witches you got nothing to worry about!'

There is such a thing as mental manipulation.

Are you saying there is such a thing as a Witch (as understood in the Salem trials, for example)?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 15:08:04 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Vague Concept
Message:
John,

Sure I believe there is such a thing as mental manipulation, but it is such a fuzzy concept it could be made to apply to anything.

We all mentally manipulate each other. It's a part of living in society. We all want to convince other people of our views. We want other peope to do things for us and we use words to attempt to influence them.

There's hard manipulation and soft manipulation, but where do you draw the line where one begins and the other leaves off?

Advertisement is manipulation. Do you propose to ban all advertisement? In the US we subject ourselves to manipulation via commercial advertisements on TV. It's the price we pay for free TV. Nobody takes the commercials seriously or considers that they are greatly influenced by them.

When there was satsang, I could always get up and leave. Many times I did get up and leave when I found the concepts premies were feeding me to be indigestible. So I would consider that to be a soft form of manipulation. It was repetitive, yes, but I could take it or leave it.

I heard the Moonies would spirit people away to 'retreats' in the country where they hammered them constantly with preaching, while deprived of sleep and perhaps drugged. I would consider this hard manipulation because there is an element of coercion. It was physically difficult to leave that environment.

I am afraid the French law might be applied indiscriminately, to free expression without regard to the actual coercivenes or non-coerciveness of the situation.

David

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:05:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Witch Trial
Message:
Good point D_Thomas, but it doesn't apply here cos EV is a cult guilty of mental manipulation to get new members.

Isn't it?

John.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:23:10 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Witch Trial
Message:
>but it doesn't apply here cos EV is a cult guilty of mental manipulation to get new members.

Yeah, and the people in Salem were witches in the eyes of many.

There is always an excuse for persecution and repression.

'Mental manipulation' What is that?
Seen any ads lately.
Been to church.
Read an editorial.
Gone on a weekend warrior training mission in Idaho.
Watched a sitcom.
Signed up to work for a political candidate.
Ate a McDonalds hamburger.
Rooted for the Lakers.
Protested electrical rate gouging.
Read a book.
Listened to some heavy song lyrics.
Did what your advisor said to get your PhD
Oh yeah, listened to your moms advice.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:54:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Are you saying there was never mental manipulation
Message:
???

In which case, why do you post like a complete cognitively-deficient alien?

I'm not saying you ARE a complete cognitively-deficient alien, Chris (ok, maybe the 'completely' was OTT - sorry) but it's a sort of impression one could easily form from reading your posts here.

Please say it ain't so....

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 19:23:21 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Are
Message:
>In which case, why do you post like a complete cognitively-deficient alien?
>Please say it ain't so....

It ain't so ....
I was, born in the USA, born in the USA ...

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:01:08 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Witch Trial
Message:
'Mental manipulation' What is that?
Seen any ads lately.
Been to church.
Read an editorial.
Gone on a weekend warrior training mission in Idaho.
Watched a sitcom.
Signed up to work for a political candidate.
Ate a McDonalds hamburger.
Rooted for the Lakers.
Protested electrical rate gouging.
Read a book.
Listened to some heavy song lyrics.
Did what your advisor said to get your PhD
Oh yeah, listened to your moms advice.

How's about Maharaji's satsang, Chris? Everything else but that, right? Hahahaha!

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:24:48 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Witch Trial
Message:
>How's about Maharaji's satsang, Chris? Everything else but that, right? Hahahaha!

OK, you got me.
Its all 'mental manipulation'.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 13:55:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Ok, let's run with: 'it's ALL mental manipulation'
Message:
If you want to argue that all verbal advice influences the behaviour of others, however, subtly, then you might have a point. However, I think you're wrong in this context. Manipulation implies influencing behaviour to a specific end - but no need to quibble over the semantics - let's call it all manipulation for now...

So how about mental manipulation for personal gain?

Or mental manipulation through fraudulent misrepresentation of one's qualifications - in this case, Prem Rawat's so-called 'powers'?

Or if you'd rather leave Bogusyogishwar out of it, what about the general point about exploitative manipulation? Do cults ever do this, in your opinion? And can such ever be considered socially responsible or morally acceptable behaviour?


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Date: Thurs, Jun 07, 2001 at 16:21:58 (GMT)
From: gErRy channels cD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I like guitars but they don't have knowledge.
Message:
Power is in the hand of the beholder.

As M has always said, its up to the indiviidvidual.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:01:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You're a fucking idiot
Message:
How many guitars did you buy this week?
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:22:48 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're a bad boy
Message:
>How many guitars did you buy this week?

Only 1 Parker Fly Supreme

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:41:21 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: I wish I had, Chris, I wish I had...
Message:
Oh yeah, listened to your moms advice.

She told me it was a cult. I didn't listen.

But yeah, there's always someone vying for your attention and trying to influence you. I get your point. Some influences are great, others not so good. It's clear that the major of people here think Rawat's influence was not good. I heartily concur.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:27:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: geez CD
Message:
You sound as though you have never been in the grasp of someone who totally messed with your mind.
Well good for you but I can tell you right now it isn't quite as painless as a billboard ad for Snapple.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:22:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: mental manipulation is real all right
Message:
I often stop and wonder just how much it has done to me? And how long it takes to dump it all out into the bin?
Haven't read Pia's site and probably won't unless there is a real purpose to doing so for some greater cause (hee hee I know that sounds odd but I meant it)
Otherwise I don't need the aggravation.
Seems to be quite a point of interest though.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:19:33 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia's website a roaring success!!!
Message:
Read it today. She is bragging about all the hits!!

Pride cometh before a fall.

Oh and they are getting new guru pics too.


Newsflash Editorial Staff Articles
What the critics say What the readers say What do you say ?

Newsflash

Global stand: Thousands of visitors in the first days

It-aint-so.org went live on June 1st 2001, at 00:30 GMT+1, since then we have had an encouraging response, in the first 24 hours alone we had over 1,100 unique visitors.

The site has been up and online for only five days day now, and already people all over the world have come to read and share. We have had an average of 900 visitors a day, and in total we had 67,049 hits from 3,439 unique visitors and 16,506 pages loaded.

We are constantly making improvements to the site so that content, features, navigation and structure will allow for the best experience. The site will have major updates on the design and technical site within the next week, so please be patient and check the for further updates as we update.

Many thanks to all the people who have helped and are helping in this process, without which this would be impossible.

Tomorrow, The first readers responses will be posted, and the news is that new pictures are on it's way. Please continue to check the site for further updates.

Do you think Katie's letter will be there?


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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:27:36 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Pia know Why? Could it of been, huh-The Porno (nt)
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:56:47 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Notice that 'About the Critics' now revised
Message:
It appears the creators of the site were 'governed accordingly' and removed reference to Jim, Michael and Michael. J-M is now ground zero. Sorry, J-M it was nice having you here - one big flash of light and you'll be in that post nuclear place.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:38:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Notice that 'About the Critics' now revised
Message:
'The photographer is working on the new pictures'

Ha ha ha! That's a good one. Have they sent a photographer up to the rez to take some more pics or are they really wrangling about which pics hide his chubbiness and make him look manly and handsome?

Actually, I thought those pics of Maharaji in the French press looked good. A bit grainy though. Perhaps if she contacted the French press they could issue her with some Official French Press professionally taken photographs.

They still haven't got the about the critics page right. According to her, I (and other people here) was was responsible for creating and implimenting the old DLM structure. I was just a sheep, doing the will of my master shepherd. I had no say in anything. I was surrendered to a higher power.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:14:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Totally Pathetic!
Message:
Yes it's true, Jim, Mike and Mike, you've had your 15 minutes of fame, and now you are like Jon Cainer on the ELK site. You were never there.

But J-M, your fame lives on!

But what the fuck's going on with the pictures of Maharaji? What's this crap about the photographer working on new pictures? Do they expect us to believe that the fat guy himself is posing for new pictures for this site????

John.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:13:21 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Totally Pathetic? - I STRONGLY disagree!!!
Message:
I just had a look round and she has put that French press article into English for everyone to read. It's in the 'What the critics say' section.

No wonder everyone is going to the site. It's obviously really an ex-premie site, dressed up as a premie site. All the anti Maharaji info is there for people to read - hot off the press!!!

Brilliant and well done that woman!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:55:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia's website a roaring success!!!
Message:
From the BBC article linked on Pia's site re new French anti-cult law:

Religious minorities have condemned the proposed law as anti-democratic, while academics have branded it draconian.

My father was a staunch advocate of the principle 'survival of the fittest'. That was practically his religion. In this viewpoint, similar to the conservative American viewpoint, it's every man/woman for themselves and tough luck if you get eaten by a lion, so to speak.

I'm not sure where I stand on this issue right now. My tendency is to agree with my father. The French culture is similar to the American in that they both had major revolutions against autocrats. But the French didn't rebel against their religion, being a fairly homogeneous country religiously, whereas America was pioneered by religious dissidents, as far as my recollection of history goes.

Oh well, c'est la vie. I guess you have to respect cultural differences. I don't think that governments in the former British Empire are going to follow the French example. I'm beginning to accept that.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:16:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I don't think I agree with the French law either
Message:
I am uncomfortable with the idea of any government deciding which religions are cults and which are not. I do believe in freedom of religion, even if that means freedom to join a destructive cult. I don't think there is any such thing as a good cult, and I despise that the Moonies, Scientology, Krshnas, etc suck people in and squelch people just as EV does. But, I think I am more afraid of a governemnt that would make it illegal to be a moonie, or a scientologist, a Krishna or a premie. I would rather see cults battled with information and education than laws. I suppose it is being American, but freedom of religion, and freedom to practice a minority religion, is a pretty basic right to me. I see too much potential for abuse if any government is deciding what is a cult or not. And that is from me, who hates cults.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 21:45:38 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I don't agree with the French law either
Message:
but I think perhaps they could force cult-like organisations to include a warning, like there is on adverts for cigarettes- 'The Powers-that-be have decreed that cults can be extremely injurious to your mental, physical and financial health' on the bottom off= all printed material, at the beginning of each video, and they could include a shortened version of the cult-questionaire to allow people to check for themselves. That's fair, isn't it?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:15:50 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Yeah ,JM ignored my post to him
Message:
when I pointed out to him that I didn't think the French legal attitude would spread europe wide and especially to the UK. The English speaking world is a TOTALLY different culture ( legally and socially) to the French model.

I also cynically wondered why France didn't go the whole hog and ban the Roman Catholic Church if they were so against CULTS !!

Banning 170 organisations seems a bit restrictive vis a vis persoal freedom.....It just couldn't happen in the UK on that scale, even though there is no written constitution here. Personal liberty is pretty much accepted but I strongly agree with Anth GOVERNMENTS are the main culprits and they chip away at liberty without the mass of people realising what's going on.

I wonder if France criticises China for banning that ( what's it called ?? Foo yong? ) cult....

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:54:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I agree with you Susan.
Message:
Governments have a history of making a law to restrict your freedom for one reason, and then using it for another.

You can't trust cults, but governments are much more dangerous. Political parties have lots in common with cults too.

On a slightly different topic, I just remembered going to dinner with some premie friends, including Pia, the evening after the programme when the final drip landed, and I co-agulated. I think there were about six of us around the table- Pia and her husband were staying with us- and I declared something like, 'It's just a cult. I've had enough.'

The reactions around the table varied from sympathetic to,an amicable 'Anth's mouthing off to the extreme again, as usual', except Pia, who seemed to take it personally and became quite agitated with me. I think she's a bit gung-ho.

Ah, the last days of the cult. How good it is to be out.

(deep breath)

Goodnight

Anth the time for bed-the sea air makes me tired.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:40:09 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Democracy
Message:
Different cultures and countries apply the principle of democracy differently. Some issues are decided by law rather than left open to unfold by themselves. In the US this is the case for deciding what is religion and what is cult. Well then it is the people in society who will decide this, according to their information......


Well that is up to us..

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:14:10 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Addendum
Message:
O.K., America for example has strict laws against fraud with respect to material transactions, particularly where money is concerned. But they don't want to touch religious fraud where there is no consideration.

Is this good sense or chicken shittiness? I'm not sure, but I think it does expose the crass material nature of American culture. It's a weakness, IMO. But how to solve it. Aha, a good question. Impossible within the current cultural/constitutional framework, probably. Maybe someone with knowledge of French law can explain how the French are doing this or propose to enforce this law. Does it have teeth or is it just blustering?

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:44:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Pia's website a roaring success!!! sez Pia
Message:
- and if the links to her site hadn't been posted here ... hmmmmm.

I wonder how many of the 3,439 visitors to her site went there straight from EPO!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:07:11 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: yep, my guess too...
Message:
but I think Pia's site is such an example of cult think that there SHOULD be a link here to her site!

Her success is ours ;)

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:15:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: how amazingly ying-yangy of her! (nt)
Message:
as opposed to ying tong iddle i po?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:33:10 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: In answer to people who disagree with me
Message:
I explained it all in a post below but I'll write it again here. I firmly believe this psychology. I have watched these forums for several years now and have drawn my own conclusions.

The point is, why do premies post here? They know they're not going to convert anyone to their way of thinking. So I surmise that premies post in self defence.
They are having a battle inside themselves. I think that if we, as ex-premies attack them as well, we are ending the battle they are having inside themseves without any resolution having breen brought about.

You see, when we attack a premie personally, they retreat into their view of this hate filled forum of despicable people. So we've not given them anything new to consider. They'll think -

'Yes, it really is true what Pia says about these people, they are full of hate. Thank God for Maharaji, or Thank Maharaji for God, (whatever).'

Also, when premies have their say, they want an adverse reaction to come from the ex-premies because it confirms their rightiousness. Premies will even goad the ex-premies with extreme statements about Maharaji. They do this because it will arouse such violent opposition that they will feel warmly confirmed that this is a bad place and that they are right in their beliefs.

It's just an unconscious (or subconscious) mind game. I can see that. Why can't others? The truth is, most mind games are unconscious and we are all playing them all of the time. But here's one I reckognise.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 17:51:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The high road is always a good one
Message:
That's why we call you Sir Dave.

The high road also has a good view. Of course, we are also an easier target for potshots. Ah well, as they said in who is GM with cosmic spacey music in the background: 'But the light nevair dies.'

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 06:59:39 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: There are all sorts of people
Message:

But as for the psychology angle I don't agree.

Premies that come here to post and inflame are not interested necessarily in either the facts or the replies to them. The majority of premies that post remarks here similar in style to Michelle's are obviously not playing with a full deck. This forum becomes a sounding board for these sorts to indulge themselves in their delusional thinking. You can actually watch their posts become more and more mentally disorganized the longer they stay here. If anything they should be banned for the sake of their mental health.

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:33:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: BUT BUT BUT.....
Message:
Let's not lose perspective here.

For instance.....let's discuss Micheles posts ... the Michele, who I keep pointing out has posted here for much longer than many of us under multiple aliases and so DEFINITELY knows what's going down here and DEFINITELY knows the triggers to press etc and IMO deserves as much 'special kidglove ' treatment as any EX or PREMIE but CERTAINLY NO MORE. And in view of her DELIBERATE over the top sugary preachy satsang deserves to be derided for INSULTING US !!!!! No matter if she just about coats it in a 'civil' approach.

How many QUESTIONS has Michele avoided? I've lost count ....I really have. Lots and lots of people have asked her very specific EV/Rawat Q's in response to her posts ....she got into a dialogue with Jim once for a short while and perhaps a little bit more dialogue here and there but in the main SHE PREACHED AND THEN IGNORED QUESTIONS. Not only that , as a poor helpless 'victim' ( a role she takes to like a duck to water but seems to me just an excuse for avoiding issues )she started blacklisting all those horrible ' uncivil' EXes . As far as I'm concerned it's no wonder she was treated with exasperation. She deserved every bit of it for ABUSING the basic premise of this forum.

I get the gist of what you're saying ,Sir Dave though I'm not certain if you came up with this final theory of the 'obvious' AFTER I and many others pointed out to you some pertinent points in DEFENCE of the reaction to Michele.Nevertheless I'll definitely give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

As far as I'm concerned we ARE ALL just human beings in the same bowl of soup. PREMIES OR NO PREMIES. If Michele chooses to INSULT
my sensibilities and intelligence then I'll be as civil or uncivil as I deem appropriate. PR, Image control etc comes a poor second in that regard.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:45:43 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: First inclinations
Message:
When I first started reading this forum, I was a premie. I read with increasing fascination and 'heart in the mouth dread'. I was terrified and fascinated. I was pulled in opposing directions. On the one hand..I saw mealy mouthed detractors, who, I must admit seemed hell bent on bringing the 'master' down. I was ready to post in defence...I really was. On the other hand I was deeply and irrevocably fascinated by the TRUTH. The truth in my own heart pulled me deeper and deeper, all those doubts I had suppressed, all those contradictions that were tearing me apart. Everything resonated inside with my own assessments. I had already gained something of a reputation for being irreverent, like after his poetry recital....which was indescribly awful. 'Moon in June' and 'Ocean and Motion' ....
Puleeeeze give me a break! Don't give up the day job.....
But, the point is..it was only two short weeks, between me thinking about posting in defence of M and my own awakening. Then everything changed. A shift, an awakening, a horrible realisation that everything I had founded my life on was false.
Do you remember what that feels like? Do you remember what it means to realise that everything you had based your life upon was false, and that you couldn't even trust yourself???
I am only just recovering from this. So please be kind to the poor premies!
Hey Ho!
Love Kelly

That's all for now. Except to say, that if I had been attacked, I would probably have gone away.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 23:59:09 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: The Horrible Realisation that everything I ....
Message:
..had founded my life on was false .

That's my experience too Kelly , & you're right that recovery takes a long time .

From being someone who as a premie had an 'I'm alright Jack ' attitude to matters eternal I now find myself back to where I was before I started . I'm aged 19 wondering whether or not god exists etc. etc. etc. but without the mental stamina to come to conclusions . Probably just as well or I might end up in some other cult.

I agree with you when you say be kind to the poor premies , but we are kind in the flesh . In space it's different : this is a very strange form of communication , truly back to the future , back to the days when people (the literate with spare time) wrote to each other in the morning & had a reply in the afternoon(at least in London) , but without the social constraints .

This forum is a megaphone & can only be shouted down by those who can show that what's written on the EPO site & discussed here is lies.

I've been tuned in here for 10 months now & haven't read a single premie poster who can go the distance , indeed I've come to the conclusion that any premie who trawls through the website in an attempt to find out the little human details & some background on the man they've invested so much of their lives in , will as you & I & many many others have done , go ......oh fuck !!!

The ones who don't like Michele Dehradune , the reason for this thread , have to take their chances . If she can't stand the cold grey light of dawn she should stay in bed.

All the best: Pat Dorrity

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:52:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I did defend Maharaji
Message:
When I first posted (in 1996/7) on what was a newsgroup back then, I did defend Maharaji. I experienced then a lot of hate and ridicule from other posters. I even wrote about some darshan experiences I'd had back in the seventies and why I believed Maharaji was the Lord.

It was not the flaming posts which moved me but as Carl points out below, it was the facts, written carefully and without malace, that turned me around.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:05:57 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You are correct Sir Dave
Message:
The antagonism kept me sitting on the barbed wire fence far too long. The facts, and especially M's stonewall of Susan, convinced me to participate. Her straightforward handling of her situation without diatribe was humbling. Here was a person not yelling at premies or M but simply stating she was wounded and concerned. The silence in reply was deafening to any remaining divine music.

I also support your stand in defense of personal integrity when it comes to posting here.

Richard

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:20:47 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Not for me Richard
Message:
The antagonism HELPED me greatly in leaving the cult. Jim and others obnoxiousness (at times :)) ) and a general disrespect of cult thinking had A VERY POWERFUL AND POSITIVE EFFECT ON ME.It really made me THINK !!!!!!!

So we are not all nice, sugary, civil people. Horses for courses.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 22:27:01 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: PS it also me made LAUGH :)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:29:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: It also me made LAUGH which is why I chimed in
Message:
I first read Mishler's interview about a year and a half ago. Then I read some Journeys (Anth's especially whacked me on the head) and then I looked at the Forum. I was unlucky enough to read some really high-frequency shrill whining about the ashrams which I could not then sympathise with as I now do. I stopped reading.

Then about six months ago I read Dettmers and the Indian background and started researching the Hindu stuff myself. Five months ago I came back to the forum and laughed so hard at Pauline Premie's post that I chimed in playfully as Thelma only to make an idiot of myself.

One of the first posts I read was: ''Who the fuck am I? I've only had Knowledge for 30 years. What do I know about it?''

I don't know who said it but it was like a slap in the face with a wet fish.

I honestly don't even mind Ms Deradune's sandstorms of satsang (I read newspapers in ten minutes.) If she is ''passionate'' about Rev Rawat that's fine with me. It's just a pity she has to post her love letters to him here because she thinks there's a better chance of his reading them than real letters which he tosses in the trash can.

What I just plain can't stomach is the ascended masters (Yogananda was a total fucking fruitcake) and ''beast 666'' and UFO crap. I don't tolerate shite like that in real life and have no intention of tolerating it here. I will tolerate the most outlandish ideas if they are original but her's are dehydrated cliches, limp, battered to death by minds far more alert than hers.

Anyway, why should we care? She has announced that she will not read our posts.....but blames my pornolized version of her sermon for making her decide to continue posting. Illogical. Ms Dune operates emotionally and fantastically. I read real porn for that.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:15:26 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I did defend Maharaji
Message:
Well there you have it....Yup, I agree. In the end it HAS to be about truth...i.e. the facts.
I have a bit of a problem here, because even if I can now accept the facts, I will never ever be in a position to say...This is how it was. The truth is subjective and memory is unreliable..
Yes, the facts are important and play an invaluable role..But,.
in the end it is about listening to myself. In the end, all I have is my own thoughts, feelings, asessments, judgements, etc etc. I try to be dispassionate and objective..but, in the end, there's nowhere else to go.
More and more I feel I can only trust myself.
Sod the rest of you!!
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:17:57 (GMT)
From: bob
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: In answer to people who disagree with me
Message:
Generally I don't mind premies posting here, it is part of an overall input. But just like I would not make derogatory remarks about rawat on one of their sites, I think it is not appropriate when they start elaborating about their feelings of devotion, or calling him sweet names like 'golden one'. Sorry but that is just DISGUSTING, and would hurt feelings of exes who are coping with letting go.
When premies have that much restraint they can contribute without offending. It also prevents very rough and emotional responses, which could give lurking premies feelings of apprehension.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:22:56 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: bob
Subject: In answer to people who agree with me - yes (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:16:49 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Great Insight, Sir Dave
Message:
I really agree with you wholeheartedly. Unless premies are totally rude and obnoxious and actually have zero opening for wanting to discuss anything, I feel strongly that people here should not flame them just for being premies and still being involved with M.

As you say, taking the step of actually coming over here may be a shaky first step towards eventually breaking free, and we should be as gentle with them as possible, within reason of course (by that I mean, we should not become the subject of their abuse, either).

But just calling people names and being hostile to them in general serves no purpose at all, IMO. And in fact only serves to get us labelled hate-mongers and demonized in the premies' eyes, so they can, as you point out, cling to their Lord even more.

Nope, you can kill more flies with honey than with vinegar, and I vote for being as gracious and open with premies who come here as we can possibly be (and I know some here are, but others are not). They are, after all, people just like us, and I don't believe we'd be that rude to anybody else we encounter in daily life, so I don't see why it should happen here, either.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:06:00 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Very true. Clear presentation of facts and history
Message:
are the most effective tools we have. Bludgeons and shouting won't work, only create resistance.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:21:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: yes (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:54:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: point taken, Joy nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:45:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I don't know about the last line, Dave
Message:
But I do agree with you in essence.

That said, perhaps I'll develop an alternative strategy when talking with premies.

You cheap, lying whore doesn't seem to be very effective. (snicker)

PS I was laughing the whole time I wrote that and could clearly hear Jane Curtin and Chevy Chase on SNL with their 'editorial' point-counterpoint spoof.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:45:40 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Dave,others have been on same page, r.e. phlegmies
Message:
yeha,

also, like didn't Chevy used to say, 'you ignorant slut,' when they were doing the news skit?

[Madeleine Kahn, Janie Curtin, and Rosanna danna what's-her-face all died young - weird.]

gee, I think we have had these other discussions before. But Dave has made some very astute psychology observations just now.

You know, there are some poor deluded phlegmies who come in to flaunt and spout superstitious cultish crapola just to piss off the heretics and get a lil' pelt of da rotten veges and then they swell up with pride and self-righteousness lika gurut phlegmies.

And then, there are those well-meaning premies who come with open minds and hearts, in search of answers and the truth - whatever that may be, progressively unshackling the leg irons of false cult concepts -- and standing and walking with their own 2 feet.

So, Throw away the attachment to shackles and crutches, premies! Master/servant slave-ry is dead. Meditation is supposed to be free - free of any strings attached or indoctrinating concepts. Big Brother googoo personality cult worship is a dehumanizing megascam. Think for yourself. Trust in yourself. Know thyself. Stand on your own 2 feet. Free thyself.

Uh, Da Rajneesh, da sun moon, da falwell, da jim and tammy, da marjoe, da sly baba, da bulbous guano ji [aka bubblegumji], and da maha ratwat. Gee, wonder what kinda pattern is there? hmmmmmm???..... rocket Science. uH, duh, gee, thIs knowledge musT REAlLy be worKING!

Ex premies are your brothers and sisters. We been there, done it. A thousand points of light...

Peace and lentils,

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