Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:09:05 (GMT)
From: Jun 03, 2001 To: Jun 08, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- My letter to Pia Grünbaum -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:38:40 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- My letter to Pia Grünbaum -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:51:33 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- My letter to Pia Grünbaum -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- J'ai oublie, tres bonne lettre J-M. (pas de texte) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:53:38 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- And here's mine - sent a few days ago -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:05:47 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Great letter. Explains EPO perfectly. (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:33:16 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- J-M, KH: Sincere, beautifully clear letters to Pia -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- J-M, KH: Sincere clear letters , Bravo. nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Great letters, Katie and J-M--------------n/t -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:18:35 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- And here's mine - sent a few days ago -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- pee a gurunbomb,still driving a '71 peace bomb (nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- thanks, donner -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- awesome letter Katie -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Excellent sincere letters JM, AJW, KH -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Excellent sincere letters JM, AJW, KH hear hear nt -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:11:24 (GMT)

Michele Deradune -:- The only Alien scripture quote I know -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 10:34:13 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I don't obey any orders -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:23:17 (GMT)
__ suchaBanana -:- your magical orders: guru craves cream pie face -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:28:02 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Banana cream pie, such? be specific! n/t -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchaBanana -:- well, anything less would be uncivilized -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:06:20 (GMT)
__ michael donner -:- The only Alien scripture quote I know -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:06:50 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- I was a doner,er donor,too.Alien love child.P+L(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:34:29 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- The only Alien scripture quote I know -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:12:02 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Was Chairman Mao an Alien? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- mate, waz the matter wi you -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- salam salam -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:50:55 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The only Alien scripture quote I know -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:53:46 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- and speaking of consciousness satsang -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:50:52 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Next time they ask for money -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:18:43 (GMT)
__ suchanaspirin [aspiraint] -:- like, you get us in our minds, dude.oh!! oy yoi(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:11:24 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Sitting on the fence? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:12:05 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Sitting on the fence the beginnings of seeing -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:58:41 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Sounds helpful to me Disculta -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:03:08 (GMT)
__ sucha bwana -:- Nah, you jumped it! there is an awakening that ha -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:07:48 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Sounds like you are, quite frankly (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ Steve M -:- What on Earth do you mean Jim ? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I mean I don't buy any of this stuff -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:31:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve -:- I don't buy any of it either -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why it's fair to call it 'fence-sitting' -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:52:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- but weaning yourself off it is a gradual process - -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- but weaning yourself off it is a gradual process - -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:20:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- but weaning yourself off it is a gradual process - -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Typo -- I meant this -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Typo AGAIN! -- forget it!! -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:25:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lifelong Path-ologist -:- You don't have to buy what's free dumdum -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:59:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I mean I don't buy any of this stuff -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:56:46 (GMT)
__ Steve M -:- Thanks - excellent post as usual nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:16:28 (GMT)

MountainVision -:- Responses to Michele's Post -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:16:08 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- I thought Michele's post was frightening -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Amen and hallelujah, Katie! Hearing voices! NuTs -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:47:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Oops! Meant NT. Freudian underware. NT -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- I thought Michele's post was frightening -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:23:49 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- I concur, good post Katie (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:30:53 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Response to your's -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 10:53:02 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Actually I agree -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Why? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I don't -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:05:10 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- and furthermore -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- and furthermore -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:21:57 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- The point is Sir Dave... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Maybe I'm odd then -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Maybe, but... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:38:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Why CAN'T anyone see the OBVIOUS??? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:11:08 (GMT)
__ swami j. suchabanana -:- ok,'discard the negativity'. FA: Ciao, dehra duhn! -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:54:54 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- There you go Michele -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 04:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanger -:- 'flammed' as in flimm-flammed,I plesume.haha LOL -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:04:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Swami found nacked in park -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:22:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- so hung---- today. taking 2 aspiraints w/ chai.(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:01:15 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Okay, I'll go watch the Mountains...and -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- looks like Spirit Lake; must be a miragee now (nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- miss Silvia -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:19:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchannaba [oups- typa] -:- u in wuv! wowie zowie!! hey, what did dey call -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:39:41 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- GO TO SATSANG--You're both looser premies -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:37:35 (GMT)
__ __ suchabrandxana -:- uh,like, give miragey's dirty laundry heck -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:48:16 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- What kind of goofball is THIS one now?? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:24:42 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- What a beautiful image. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:04:11 (GMT)
__ __ sucha -:- Crystals,dude? u a Scorpio?Asparagus risin'?P+L(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:52:29 (GMT)

Jim -:- Blast from the Past re Harlan and Mili's page -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:43:53 (GMT)
__ CD -:- Blast -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:54:18 (GMT)

Wildflower -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:17:35 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:18:50 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I'm a gemini with an active mind -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:35:47 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Another Active Mind -:- Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:00:57 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:43:28 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Come off it Scott T... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:32:33 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:29:39 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:57:44 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:41:54 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- correction: 'adequately ' :)))))))))) (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:44:46 (GMT)
__ suchabandonana -:- uh,.duh,.uh,.duh,.uh,.duh...hahahahahahaha!PhD(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:31:14 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:46:52 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- You talkin' about me, girlfriend? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:59:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Wildflower -:- You talkin' about me, girlfriend? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:45:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ sivan -:- U2? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:10:39 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ Bon -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:38:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Losing the ability to think due to practicing k -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 04:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ BOB -:- Uh oh, typo! nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:40:04 (GMT)

Moldy Warp -:- Poisonous rantings of the Lard from 1978 -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:00:55 (GMT)
__ Way -:- 'the whole world is a jail' -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- 'the whole world is a jail' - the full text!!! -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- The scariest part -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:53:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Don't be scared Way - the Great Goddess Ikea -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:52:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Those 8 billion 4 million forms of suffering -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:40:52 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Jeez, willya listen to the guy? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:26:29 (GMT)
__ mr.bojangles -:- Sewage imbedded in my consciousness. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:04:36 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- I love you, Moldy Warp (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:04:44 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- I love you too my Nigel(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:14:11 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- yeah, + if you don't eat your veges they'll rot -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:10:41 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Guru Maharaji doesn't want your cars -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- No rollerskates or skateboards here either n/t -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- No rollerskates or skateboards here either n/t -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchalamborghanbani -:- be carful what you wish 4! LOL Peace + Lentils(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:10:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- be carful what you wish 4! LOL Peace + Lentils(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- i.e. be carful what u wish 4,it might come true(nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:48:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Yeh I know that Such - but wotdoyer mean????!nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:37:17 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Report Re EV Vancouver -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:14:31 (GMT)
__ You tried....... -:- u didn't lose much, anyway. Thanks. nt -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:34:43 (GMT)

Chuck Sprague -:- In defense of Elan Vital and premie volunteers... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:07:08 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Three steps to heaven ... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:26:34 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- The merry-go-round of EVand premie volunteers... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ Tony -:- Me too.I'm glad that merry go roung ride.ended. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 10:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Me too, thanks -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:44:15 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- In defense of Elan Vital and premie volunteers... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Very well put. Nothing to add. (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:32:05 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Yeah that's it Jerry (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:05:43 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Many people in high places with too much power -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:16:18 (GMT)

Salam -:- Pia -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:39:27 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Being on the hot spot -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:35:56 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Amateurish/Transparent Nonsense -- a Suggestion -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:43:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thanks for the support, and yes -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- It bothers me too, J-M -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:36:25 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Don't worry JM -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- JM. See Jim's thread below -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:15:16 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Pia has known Maharaji most of her life. -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- What's the use of Pia's website ? Premies' I guess -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- I have been thinking about this -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- another (admittedly bizarre) theory -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:55:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- gerry, you forget... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:38:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- maybe not that bizarre -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:53:03 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- they both have the same dog trainer -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:48:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Susan. -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Hello Susan! but link doesn't work n/t -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:27:13 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Wish the images would go away again -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 17:20:55 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Pia -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Pia -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:28:02 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- My pleasure -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:46:54 (GMT)

Carl -:- Where is that great cult-or-not questionnaire ??? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:00:07 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- The questionnaire is on EPO.... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:47:29 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- FOUND IT : (Tim Mathieson June 3 post ) / nt -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 17:20:16 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- That's not it, there's another one, yes/no in form -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:59:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Here are KEY QUESTIONS for Fence-Sitting Premies, -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 17:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Here are KEY QUESTIONS for Fence-Sitting Premies, -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:58:14 (GMT)

Sandy -:- On topic: Even monkeys alert each other to danger -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:48:34 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Animals 'looking out for one another' -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Animals 'looking out for one another' -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Animals 'looking out for one another' -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:26:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Kropotkin was no crackpot'... -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:36:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Animals 'looking out for one another' -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ sandy -:- Thanks for the info... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:30:36 (GMT)
__ CW -:- So what's your excuse Sandy? No Peanuts? (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Your meaning escapes me (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:36:34 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- FYI - 'Cooperative' Evolution link -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 13:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ Scot J -:- Yeah, something is disfunctional in M's tribe NT -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:05:40 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:38:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My letter to Pia Grünbaum
Message:
Here is a copy of what I've just sent her on her website:

+++++++++++++

Paris, June 5th, 2001.

Hi Pia,

I’ve checked your website with great interest, of course, as you mention me as a part of “a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.”

Of course there are a few things to say about this regarding me particularly.

It is true that I have had responsibilities in M’s organizations for a long time, but it would be good to say what those responsibilities were. Merely applying M’s policy and trying to apply in France his wishes (in my small service area), as they’ve been explained to me and to many other people in the numerous organizors’ and instructors’ conferences I’ve been a part of. Have you ever been a part of those conferences ?

You also state that “We view their desire to spread rumors and false allegations against Maharaji and Elan Vital at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices.”

My question is: did you ever read what I wrote, the history of my involvement in the ex-premie website, and the reasons that are motivating me in having such an active profile ? How can you say I’m avoiding taking responsibility when my involvement precisely shows the contrary in my (and many other people’s) opinion ? It takes guts to be so critic of your past beliefs and involvement like I’m doing !

This is just to mention a few things to introduce the possibility of a real open and honest debate between the people who are valuing your master’s teachings, and those who detract him.

Of course we’ll never agree on many issues, but isn’t it something common in the real world and in real life ? What's wrong with this ? Can’t you admit and hear critics ? Maybe you’ll also have something to learn in the process !

For the interest of everyone, I’d suggest you open the ‘discussion’ section of your website to my answers. This would be only fair game. This would show that you accept views different from yours, and a real discussion on issues important to many persons involved with your master.

Of course I don’t want to occupy too much place on your website. Maybe you could allow me one message a week or so, with a limited number of characters.

I guess that would bring some interest to your new website, and help people who are still in the ‘cult thinking’ mode to evolve and think for themselves.

Sincerely

Jean-Michel Kahn (not your enemy, or anybody’s)

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:51:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: My letter to Pia Grünbaum
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

I've written a couple of letters to Pia. The first one asked exactly what lies she was talking about. The second told her that she'd got her facts all wrong with the leaders.

Her site is a fine example of 'cult-think'. It's what happens when a bunch of premies get all excited and 'decide to do something'. It all looks so fantastic in the cult, 'Yeah Pia, it's time somebody spoke out.' But when this wacky stuff reaches the surface for all to see, there's obviously something seriously wrong with it.

I find her claim that she's 'known Maharaji most of her life', interesting. Also, she tries to class us with fascist and racist sites- bundling us all together as 'hate sites'. This is almost hysterical. Anyone can look at EPO and see for themselves that it is simply presenting information that the cult and the Captain would rather not be public.

The premies have a big blind spot. They can't see how cultish they look. And when they stringently deny being a cult, like Pia does, they look even more cultish. It's amazing, they really do believe that the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas, Children of God, TM folk, and all the rest are in cults, and they alone are not.

Pia has obviously built up a head of steam with her premie pals. The valve went, and popped her confused, unfinished ideas out into the public for all to see.

I hope she'll have the courage to discuss her accusations with us, and not, like most premies, retreat behind the wall of the cult. I invited her to come on the forum and talk to us. I said she'd probably be surprised at the reception she would receive.

I also hope she does the 'Are you under the influence of a destructive belief system?' quiz that Tim sent her.

You're right J-M, anyone who reaches her site, and hasn't seen EPO, will become curious and probably have a look. Then they can judge for themselves.

A bientot

Anth watching the walls tumble.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:29:29 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: My letter to Pia Grünbaum
Message:
HEY Anth, that's a really astute assessment. I mean it. Tres COOL!
Kelly
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:53:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J'ai oublie, tres bonne lettre J-M. (pas de texte)
Message:
rien.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:05:47 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And here's mine - sent a few days ago
Message:
(I am still hoping to get an answer, or at least an acknowledgement. As I promised in my letter, I will NOT put any replies on this forum.)
------------------------
Dear Pia -

A premie friend of mine, Chris Dickey, suggested that I write to you regarding some factual errors on your site. I am hoping that I can communicate with you as one person to another, and that you will not regard me as your enemy.

My name is Katie Haering, and my husband Brian and I have been running ex-premie.org since January of 1998. If you want to blame any ex-premies for 'attacking' Maharaji, we are probably the people to blame, since we have worked hard to keep the site and the associated forum on line for the past three and a half years. We have been assisted by Jean-Michel Kahn in this effort since 2000, when his own web site was forced off the internet by premies who contacted lawyers in France.

I have to admit that I was shocked when I read the allegations on your web site. Pia, I am a human being - so is my husband - and so is Jean-Michel. We are not evil. You would probably like us if you met us. However, we have had very different experiences than you with Maharaji, and that is why we are committed to the ex-premie.org site.

Brian and I are NOT people who held prominent positions in DLM/EV. Both of us are 'nobodys' - neither of ever held any responsible position in DLM/EV - I doubt if anyone even remembers who we are, since we got knowledge in 1972, when record-keeping within the organization wasn't so great (Also I was 16 at the time - not a likely candidate for leadership!)

Well, on to some specific rebuttals -

You wrote:
My name is Pia Grunbaum. I have decided to host this web site because Maharaji and the people who enjoy his Knowledge are being cynically attacked by a hate group. Their stated intent is to defame Maharaji and destroy the potential benefits of his work. This small group uses the Internet to put forth a gross misrepresentation of a person whose efforts are deeply valued by hundreds of thousands of people globally, including myself.

My answer:
Pia, I take issue (naturally) with some of the statements you put forth here. The stated intent of ex-premie.org (which I assume you are talking about) is NOT to 'destroy Maharaji and destroy the potential benefits of his work'. As I stated earlier, my husband Brian and I have been running the ex-premie.org site since January of 1998. Our purpose NEVER has been to 'bring Maharaji down', or to 'misrepresent him' in any way. Rather, we hope to present our side of the story in a way that will help people who are not happy following Maharaji - and these people do exist. I became involved with the site because a premie friend of mine - a dear friend - committed suicide, and, although it was too late for me to reach him, I felt that I might be able to reach other people who felt as confused and as full of self-hatred and despair as he did.

I object to your characterization of our site as a 'hate group'. Neither Brian or I or Jean-Michel wishes to spread 'hate' against premies as a group, or against Maharaji personally. I do not hate Maharaji - I do get angry at him sometimes when I see the negative effect his teachings have had on certain people.

You wrote:
This is a call for people who know Maharaji and who practice Knowledge to join me in speaking out to set the record straight and show how the picture being painted by those who call themselves 'ex-premies' is both false and irresponsible. I ask all contributors to this site to take personal responsibility for their own choices and any part they have had in fostering any misconceptions. We ask the exes to do the same - especially those who were in positions of responsibility within the organisation. I do not issue this call lightly, but out of the deepest sense
of personal indignation and seriousness of purpose.

My answer:
Pia, I DO take personal responsibility for all my choices. If you are familiar with my posts on the ex-premie.org forum, I urge others to do the same. I think this is the only way we can attain personal freedom. However, I do not take responsibility for everything that has happened to me in life, although I am the kind of person who tends to do that. I have learned, with help, to take responsibility for MY PART of it. I don't know if you realize this, but there are many people who have tried very hard to follow Maharaji and to practice knowledge, and who haven't been able to find happiness or peace that way. I would like those people to know that it isn't ALL their fault - that they don't need to feel like failures in life, and that knowledge doesn't work for everyone. And that that is OK.

You wrote, re Maharaji's critics:

The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.

My reply:
Actually, this statement is untrue. As I said, Brian and I began running the ex-premie.org site in January of 1998. Jim Heller WAS active in posting against Maharaji then - I believe he had been posting about Maharaji on Usenet and on the ex-premie.org forum since 1996. However, he NEVER held any position of power in either DLM or EV - he was a rank-and-file ashram premie, as he will attest. There have been several other people who have been speaking out about their feelings about Maharaji nearly as long as Jim has - I am not sure why you single him out in this way.

Jean-Michel began administering the French language forum on ex-premie.org sometime during 1998. He had his own site - the DLM/EV Papers - on his own server - at that time. In mid-year 2000, while Jean-Michel was on a trip to the United States, premies working with lawyers in France caused his site to be pulled from the Internet. Brian and I offered to host his site on ex-premie.org at that time. Since then, Jean-Michel has been active in putting new pages (in both French and English) on ex-premie.org.

What you have said about Michael Dettmers and Michael Donner is not true. All that either of them has done is post on the forum hosted on ex-premie.org. Since all submissions to that forum become property of ex-premie.org, Jean-Michel has used their testimony to make new pages for the site. By no stretch of the imagination can you call either of these men 'leaders' - in fact, they are not involved with ex-premie.org at all. You may criticize them for what they have said on the forum, but in fact, what they have done is tell the truth as they see it. And I believe that both of them have taken responsibility for their part in DLM/EV.

You wrote:
All of these now claim that they were unwittingly working for a cult while in fact they were instrumental in forming and implementing the very organizational policies and practices they are now criticizing.

My answer:
This is untrue - please read my message above. I feel that Jean-Michel, Michael Donner, and Michael Dettmers have taken plenty of responsibility for their roles in DLM/EV - and they (particularly Michael Dettmers) have been attacked by many ex-premies because of repercussions from their roles in DLM/EV.

You wrote:
At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers. If there was a cult in those days, it existed in the minds of people like this fueled by an ambition to make Maharaji and his work conform to their own private visions.

My answer:
Pia, I am not a frustrated ex-lover, and I don't want 'revenge'. I am involved with ex-premie.org because I want to help people like my friend who killed himself - and, believe me, there ARE other people like him out there (we have heard from many). I am not interested in converting anyone who is content with following Maharaji. I hope you can believe this.

If it was a perfect world, my hope would be that Maharaji would take some responsibility for his past statements and actions (for example, his implications that he was an incarnation of a divine being). I believe that would help many troubled premies. But although I wish for this to happen, I don't expect it to happen - and I can guess that you wouldn't feel that it was a good thing.

I am also hoping that you will make some changes to your site based on the facts I have presented here. I also would hope that you wouldn't demonize ex-premies as a group - as I said, we are human beings just as you are.

I hope you can receive this letter in the spirit in which it was written. Please feel free to e-mail me if you have questions (I will NOT post your letters on the Forum!!!)

Sincerely,
Katie Haering

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:33:16 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Great letter. Explains EPO perfectly. (nt)
Message:
jai sat chit anand
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:11:38 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: J-M and Katie H
Subject: J-M, KH: Sincere, beautifully clear letters to Pia
Message:
Boy, what a pleasure to read your posts! Sincere, direct, rather friendly actually, and free of rant, cant and rancor.

I'd hope the direct but respectful tone of voice, as well as the recorded history and logic, could help Pia, or any lurking, fearful premie, to be open to consider the possibility that something's dreadfully wrong with the whole M/EV enterprise.

It takes guts and genuine humility to realize 'yes, I've been trying to synchronize with a scam-meister for the last XX years. Now what?'

It ain't necessarily easy. These people, our brothers and sisters, do deserve some compassion.

Again, wonderful stuff in your postings.

Be well,
C.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:44:53 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: J-M, KH: Sincere clear letters , Bravo. nt
Message:
I couldn't put it better Carl.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:18:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Great letters, Katie and J-M--------------n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:12:58 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: And here's mine - sent a few days ago
Message:
great letters from you both...i'll be sending one also...but doubt any of this will do much good in the end...will see. regards for the hard work you all have put into this site. thanks
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:55:32 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: pee a gurunbomb,still driving a '71 peace bomb (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:23:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: thanks, donner
Message:
(no caps is contagious!)

I didn't want to do too much speaking on the behalf of you, J-M, Jim, or Michael Dettmers - just the facts, so I'm glad you're sending a letter as well.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:41:18 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: awesome letter Katie
Message:
I was utterly baffled by the way she twisted it into ex's are not taking responsibility and Maharaji is taking it all. That blew my 'mind'. JM, Michael Donner, and Michael Dettmers have all shown a lot of character in my book for taking a lot of responsibility for their actions as bigwigs in the cult. I have not heard of anything in which Rawat takes any, at all, even though he is the guy at the top. It just baffles me how premies can use this logic. I do not know of any organization in which ( except maybe other cults, Manson, Monnies, Jones ) in which one man has so much power over so many others. He has always had the most control over what happenn in DLM EV, he does the hiring and firing, and according to the Michaels, never let an opportunity to let them know that there were thousands lined up to take their ex rated places go by. I am stunned that the same people who see Rawat as a perfect master and all powerful, not a leaf moves without his grace...that these very same people use this he is a poor poor victim of the PAMs. The obvious thing though is they learned it, as they do most everything, from the top. I think Rawat plays martyr, and they buy it, and then issues his edicts...and they can't see the contradictions...they are in a cult.

Great letter. You addressed a lot of what bothered me.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:48:38 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JM, AJW, KH
Subject: Excellent sincere letters JM, AJW, KH
Message:
Your heartfelt and passionate letters will most likely only be seen here but they will have great impact on any wavering premies who take the time to read them with an open mind.

I think Pia's site represents the last gasp of a certain way of thinking regarding M - that he must be protected from the world at large. It is, in my not so humble opinion, codependence to the max whereby the premies enable M's megalomania at all costs to preserve their fragile belief system. Perhaps by you and others connecting with her directly it will bring it all down to a human level - something M can't do - and will 'pop her cork' as it were. As Katie said, we are all human beings.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 03:11:24 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Excellent sincere letters JM, AJW, KH hear hear nt
Message:
hear hear
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 10:34:13 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: michele@deradune.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The only Alien scripture quote I know
Message:
'No one gets help who does not follow orders. No one gets help who does not help others.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:23:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: I don't obey any orders
Message:
That's why I don't listen to aliens, gurus, or anyone who orders me around.

love ya, you crazy lady, f

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:28:02 (GMT)
From: suchaBanana
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: your magical orders: guru craves cream pie face
Message:
orders: guru is craving cream pie face. you are the chosen instrument of this divine mission.

this mystical tape will self-destruct in 4 days.

Ok, beam me up, Gabe...

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:19:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: suchaBanana
Subject: Banana cream pie, such? be specific! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:06:20 (GMT)
From: suchaBanana
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: well, anything less would be uncivilized
Message:
Michele could probably make an apple pie,
but she sure couldn't make a banana cream.

So, mission is to buy banana cream pie at store, proceed to backstage entrance (or cocktail lounge, banquet, event, airport, Rolls or yacht dealer, [or other appropriate location]) and welcome speaker with the traditional cream pie. [Careful not to get hammered, in the process, though. Wouldn't be prudent.]

Beam me up again, Raph...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:06:50 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: mdonner@netidea.com
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: The only Alien scripture quote I know
Message:
hi michele...i believe that we know each other from denver days. please contact me at my email above...all the best. michael doner
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:34:29 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: I was a doner,er donor,too.Alien love child.P+L(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:12:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: The only Alien scripture quote I know
Message:
Please explain what this gem is all about?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:58:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Was Chairman Mao an Alien?
Message:
Hi comrade,

Isn't that a quote from Chairman Mao? The communists always stressed absolute obedience.

Hey, maybe Mao was an alien. Whaddya think?

Anth the running-dog-paper-tiger-imperialist-lackey.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:40:41 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: mate, waz the matter wi you
Message:
e wus a permie.
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 13:50:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: salam salam
Message:
wot's this I hear about you trying to take over the Internet?

Anth the bookworm.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:53:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The only Alien scripture quote I know
Message:
Salam:

I fear she's wasted her one post. Some mazes don't have a center.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:50:52 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: and speaking of consciousness satsang
Message:
I used to really get in my mind when one of Rawat's collection agents would come to town in search of money. That was one thing but when they'd tell us to not only put money in the envelope and send it to fat boy but be sure not to lick the envelope. The implication being that the HOLY HOOVES shouldn't have to touch our imperfect saliva. Ah that consciousness! That understanding!
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:18:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Next time they ask for money
Message:
have a wank on the envelope.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:11:24 (GMT)
From: suchanaspirin [aspiraint]
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: like, you get us in our minds, dude.oh!! oy yoi(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:12:05 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sitting on the fence?
Message:
Question: I am perfectly happy as a premie. I go to see MJ and get inspired to continue the meditation which gives me peace of mind. What's wrong with that?

Answer: Nothing is wrong with that. As far as I am concerned, I'm into allowing everyone to be, do and have whatever they want to create - within boundarles of non-violence.

I do have a personal opinion, though, and I'd be happy to share it with you. From my experience and the experience of working with many, many people who followed MJ for years, and were either still following, in the process of leaving or had left, there is an awakening that happens with letting go of the identification with MJ and K as being 'the master,' or 'the way.' Although MJ and K may well have been the right thing at the right time and place, in the right situation, they do not constitute a lifelong path with enough flexibility and dimensionality to allow real growth, IMO. The techniques of K may give you a sense of peace; indeed, focussing awareness on the breath is at the basis of practices in every single spiritual tradition. But the whole trip is spirit-polarized. It's about going 'up, up, infinitely up,' as MJ put it. Whether you realize it or not, this is the underlying belief system surrounding MJ and K: transcendence. Going beyond and above everything so it won't bother you. It may work for a while, but after a few years, something very unbalancing happens to people. They come down. Then getting back up becomes a desperate scramble to avoid what seems to be a fearful abyss.

The emotions haven't been fully validated, the mind has been demonized, and the body has been overridden. One loses one's sense of really being able to trust one's inner knowing, precisely BECAUSE one has separated from the direct information available in the body. This causes a spiral of greater dependence on the guru, feelings of shame that one isn't as 'blissful' as the party line implies one should be. All of this creates splits in many people, which piggy-back on whatever splits or unresolved issues you brought into the whole deal.

When you leave MJ and K there is an amazing opportunity to explore whole regions of yourself that have been taboo for years. At first these places may seem threatening. Suppressed feelings can be a bit scary when they get out of the cage (which may be why a few of the posts here are a bit scary). But if you keep going through it there is extraordinary freedom on the other side. In fact, if you'll excuse the pun, you can now trance-end, instead of transcending. Because when you wake up from it, the whole thing is revealed to have been a trance. Trances can be fun for a while, but are not a good way to spend your whole life.

That's all for now,

Love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:58:41 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Sitting on the fence the beginnings of seeing
Message:
both sides of this issue, even a variety of sides, from a much better vantage point.

Katie, thank you for a thoughtful and well articulated post. I respect the compassion you extend to those at every gradation of growth. Some swing wildly toward balance, some arrive less bitter or agitated. You are so correct to point out how vast regions of one's inner being have been denied by an earnest but misguided attempt to tow a party line, even one that promised transcendent bliss.

For questioning premies I'm thinking maybe the fence top is an alternative 'straight and narrow way', itself a useful transcendent position. In any case, at least from there they can see a little better into the psychological perils the escape from which put 'em up on the fence in the first place. It is not an ignoble position, in my opinion. Rather necessary I would say, if variably temporary. I suspect we all spent at least some time there on our journeys toward greener pastures.

And no wonder. Look at the blanket statement we wrestled with: 'Leave no room for doubt in your minds' . . . what an indictment against the intellect, discernment, and intuition. I have heard it used to squelch all inquiry into dissonant external DLM activities and also within one's own inner responses to those activities. It was also used to nip in the bud any philosophical discussion or speculation.

How severely we internalized that commandment probably relates to how long we allowed ourselves to suffer in trying to act upon the quiet voice telling us 'something is wrong here, and drastic change is urgently needed', 'I've got to get out of this one-dimensional outback.'

I believe climbing up on that fence for a 'look-see' takes a bit 'o courage for most folks. They are finally feeling and following an even deeper urge (the built-in commandment) to 'know thyself', or 'listen/feel/act with the totality of your being'. I celebrate that wholeheartedly.

BTW, do they (M/EV) still have the 'five commandments'? Maybe the 'don't you EVER question the purity of the master' is the new one, to replace all others. I wouldn't know for sure.

We wouldn't be much of a civilization if we never doubted the party line or the status quo.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:03:08 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Sounds helpful to me Disculta
Message:
In fact, I may print this and give it a loved one who, at present, has fallen from the 'magic beanstalk' of the Portland event. I have a feeling from a few of the objections to your way of thinking that this will be a long thread. Good - it always help to get this stuff out in the open and see it from many perspectives.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:07:48 (GMT)
From: sucha bwana
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Nah, you jumped it! there is an awakening that ha
Message:
'there is an awakening that happens with letting go of the identification with MJ and K as being 'the master,' or 'the way.'

there is an amazing opportunity to explore whole regions of yourself

But if you keep going through it there is extraordinary freedom on the other side. In fact, if you'll excuse the pun, you can now trance-end, instead of transcending. Because when you wake up from it, the whole thing is revealed to have been a trance. Trances can be fun for a while, but are not a good way to spend your whole life.'

dreaming of being butterfly dreamin of being human dreamin of butterfinger dreaming of bein...

went to da dance lookin for romance
thought i'd take a chance and fell into a Trance...

Peas and yentils,

Police and parentals,

peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:20:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Sounds like you are, quite frankly (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:03:03 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What on Earth do you mean Jim ?
Message:
Disculta whom we both know the real name of , has been out of the cult for approx 17 yrs I think. She has worked with people in a therapeutic manner who are leaving the cult and is appreciated for her insights on the emotional turmoil created through cult involvement.

How is she sitting on the fence with regard to Maha's cult ?

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:31:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve M
Subject: I mean I don't buy any of this stuff
Message:
Nothing personal against Disculta. I realize that she has a spiritually-oriented counselling practise. We all have to make a living somehow. Me, I defend murderers. But still, I sttrongly disagree with some of her ideas.

She writes:

Although MJ and K may well have been the right thing at the right time and place, in the right situation,

....stop right there, I'm thinking. I can't see any way this premise could be true. Can you?

< they do not constitute a lifelong path with enough flexibility and dimensionality to allow real growth, IMO.

Oh, we're assuming there are such things as 'lifelong paths'? Naw, don't buy it, myself. Do you? Some do, sure. I know that. Some still think there are spiritual paths that lead to some sorts of spiritual destinies or the like. I'm just saying I don't. When I hear people who were in m's cult talk like that I can't help but think they brought a bug back from their travels in 'Maharaji's World'.

The techniques of K may give you a sense of peace; indeed, focussing awareness on the breath is at the basis of practices in every single spiritual tradition.

So? What's the point? That there really IS some special magic to breath meditation, some spiritual power? Isn't that what all those 'spiritual traditions' maintain? Might be true, sure. I just don't think so and consider this, too, for a premie especially, a vestigal remnant.

Just a different outlook, I guess. To someone like me, who thinks that 'every single spiritual tradition' shares the same fatal flaw, their assumption of a God I don't believe exists, this kind of thinking is simply part-way, not fully, out of the cult [Weird asterisk for weird buddhism]. Is it far enough to live a fun, happy and satisfying life? Sure, probably. Is there further to go? Yeah, I think so.

Beyond that, Disculta's discussion about how wonderful life can be when one's not trying to go 'up, up, up, infinitely up', yeah I agree with all that.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:40:07 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't buy any of it either
Message:
Hi Jim,

Personally I am more into your line of thinking these days on these issues but I don't think you can justify refering to new agey type ex premies as fence sitters.

Quite a few exes seem to be still attached to the seeking truth pathway and that's fine by me even though I've dropped it all at this point in my life.

Regards
Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:52:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Why it's fair to call it 'fence-sitting'
Message:
Hi Steve,

First, I never would have used the term unless Disculta did first. A bit of poetic licence, I guess. It's not really fence-sitting in terms of whether or not Maharaji's a fraud. I know that. But it IS fence-sitting in terms of the nature of his fraud. What? Breath meditation really is a cosmic spiritual practise? Knowledge and Maharaji might have been okay then (I guess this attitude really is a bit of 'fence-sitting' vis-a-vis Maharaji)?

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 19:58:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim mostly, Steve et al
Subject: but weaning yourself off it is a gradual process -
Message:
Helping/encouraging people to wean themselves off dependency to the Maha is one thing. And I have no doubt that Katie's post will help a lot of people towards that end.

But insinuating that they also have to deny their aspirations to 'spirituality' too - well that's another matter altogether.
.
.
.
It's that word 'spiritual' that bugs you, isn't it?

OK Jim, what if, instead of calling it 'spirituality' we call it something like 'personal growth'? Y'know - the growth of the whole of yourself: emotionally, mentally, psychologically (psyche=soul, remember?)

Physical growth comes into it too - it's common knowledge that if you've got a healthy opinion about yourself, your physiology will reflect that positive attitude. Our ability (or lack of it) to 'connect' to our bodies is tied up in our self-image (i.e. the way we see ourselves has a direct effect on the way we look).

What it boils down to is this:

Just because some con-artists use the idea of personal growth/spirituality as a means of duping people into becoming dependent on their scam DOESN'T have to mean that the concept of spirituality/personal growth has therefore to be invalid in and of itself.

Personally, I think Katie's angle can be helpful to a lot of premies - at least to those who are open to the idea of re-evaluation. A step at a time.

Your post might be intended to help Katie to take another step toward true independence. In which case, I'd only ask whether this forum is more about Katie, or the soon-to-be-ex-premies?

Either way, I'm glad both of you posted.
(if you hadn't, neither would I)

Hey.

We should meet up one day, yes?

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:20:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: but weaning yourself off it is a gradual process -
Message:
Just because some con-artists use the idea of personal growth/spirituality as a means of duping people into becoming dependent on their scam DOESN'T have to mean that the concept of spirituality/personal growth has therefore to be invalid in and of itself.

No, you're right. For example, Maharaji could be a false 'realized being' as opposed to a real one. That's IF you believe there are such things. Spirituality in all its glory could be legit, there could be a god to hear your prayers or some cosmic entity that feels your vibe or whatever. I jsut don't believe there is, that's all.

But I don't think hiding spirituality under a misleading euphemism like 'personal growth' is a good idea. The term's too vague. There's 'personal growth' that has nothing whatsoever to do with matters spiritual (?). Becoming smarter, more experienced, even nicer could all be called 'personal growth' and yet have nothing to do with spiritual things.

Meet? Sure, Chris. Anytime. But I just wonder, what's your real-life counterpart for this:


Hm? :)

Jim

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 11:00:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: but weaning yourself off it is a gradual process -
Message:
It is that word 'spirituality' isn't it?

I guess it's become a catch-all word that's tainted with a lot of the bad press that started with Spiritualism, psychics, gullible punters and get-rich-quick con-artists.

So if the word 'spirituality' conjures a picture in your mind of a bunch of deluded wishful-thinkers who spout a load of unscientific claptrap, well the word is definitely loaded for you.

I still use it though, but in a different sense. There's spirituality and there's what I call fake spirituality. The worthy kind is (to me) more about sincerity, openness, having a natural sense of personal morality, being truthful, the ability to appreciate real beauty and harmony, that kind of stuff.

The Oxford English Dictionary has one definition (among many) that puts it pretty clearly: Spiritual =
'characterized by or exhibiting a high degree of refinement of thought or feeling'

But clearly I've got to find a better word that doesn't have quite so many connotations of worthlessness - to some!

.
.
.
.
.
Oh, and BTW, the spaces between paras in my posts are simply meant to indicate a change of subject/style, or just simply to inject a pause in the flow of ideas.

(And it's easy to do - just type a dot (or period/full-stop) then press Return, and repeat

.
.
.
.
to
.
.
.
.
your
.
.
.
.
.
heart's
.
.
.
.
.
content.

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:24:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Typo -- I meant this
Message:
This

is what I meant

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 02:25:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Typo AGAIN! -- forget it!!
Message:
I was trying to do all those cq spaces. Not as easy as I thought.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:59:52 (GMT)
From: Lifelong Path-ologist
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You don't have to buy what's free dumdum
Message:
This is hilarious, the moment one of the forum intelligencia write something that makes sense, Jim's wetting his pants!!
I agree, there were some errors in her work but Gee jimbo, Amaroo must have left you dazed mate, what's this, the fouth person you've tripped over this week?! Maybe taka them dark glasses off a ya chum

BTW: Disculta's words are a soothing bath of Rose oil and Petuli, what's wrong with a bit of alternative culture pampering? She makes me think 'aromatherapy' and 'massage' and I begin to wilt, yum yum (have you seen her photo? She's a babe!)

Here's a clue what she means by 'lifelong paths' counsellor.

The lifelong path has two signposts. The first reads...

BIRTH>
Now piss off and live your life.

The second sign reads...

DEATH<
Come here you, your time is up.

That's what Disculta means I think, 'life journey.'

Good that you still think spiritual traditions 'might' be true and there might be 'special magic' to breath meditation'. Excellent start.
You're still in with a chance mate, it's still not too late!

But watch those viruses boys. They're commin at ye from all sides..including your own!! (was that really you Janet? thought you knew computers better than that)

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:56:46 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I mean I don't buy any of this stuff
Message:
Having a 'lifelong path' simply means you've been over the same ground enough to trample and kill the vegetation. It's part of a range from bushwhacking to rut. If you have a gross income larger than your age times $1,000 you're probably closer to rut, but some people have lucrative careers as bushwhackers.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:16:28 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks - excellent post as usual nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:16:08 (GMT)
From: MountainVision
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Responses to Michele's Post
Message:
So ready to attack? Why? Why are so many almost angry, derisive
and unhappy?
Where is your joy? Watch the colors of life. Let light come
into your life. Discard the negativity. Create
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:27:27 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: I thought Michele's post was frightening
Message:
I am guessing you're just a hit-and-run poster, so you won't answer, but here's why I thought it was scary. (And believe me, there was plenty of negativity IN the actual post!)

She wrote:
Is that sooooo hard to believe? That there might be some people close to Maharaji who seek to control Maharaji's money and power? I have stated before, and I will state it again: I do not know who those people are by name. The reason I KNOW they are there is only because my heart is true (as many, many, many premies hearts are true) and we know what we have had to put up with Elan Vital in a way that Maharaji doesn't know, because he has not been told our side of the story.
[snip]
I have been chosen by the Holy Spirit (from a long, long time ago), and I didn't know why or what I was chosen for at the time I received the Holy Spirit, in what I might call a private (only myself as a witness) Pentacost. The Holy Spirit has cleansed me and blessed me.

Now, some people don't want to be blessed by the Holy Spirit. You know why? I can tell you, that's for sure. It's because the Will of God comes through the Holy Spirit into a person so blessed and commands that person to do or say certain things from time to time. The person truly blessed with the Holy Spirit, such as myself, who loves the Lord and loves the Holy Spirit, must obey the Holy Spirit.
[snip]
Why I have I been blessed by so many? Jesus Christ. Yogananda. And even Maharaji, both with Knowledge and Holy Breath (and many, many, many others have been blessed with the Holy Breath and no doubt armies of others have been blessed, as I have, by Jesus Christ and Yogananda as well!). Why, you say?

I asked that question too. Now I know why. Because it is the Armageddon, if you will. Those who would seek to retain control over the information Maharaji receives, I hereby annouce that it is indeed THEY who are all or part of the Beast 666 -- they would would dare to hurt, hinder and/or deceive the Golden One, my dearest Friend - Maharaji.

It is scary to me when people like Michele claim to have divine guidance, and to 'know' in their hearts that something is happening without having any evidence. It is even scarier to me when they hint about taking action based on this supposed 'divine guidance'. It sounds like 'inner agya', 'Jesus told me to do it', and all those things that have precipitated violent events in the past.

Now if all she is talking about is posting what she believes on this forum, that's OK, I guess (although you certainly can't blame other people for posting what THEY think about her beliefs). My fear is that she will somehow try to act on these beliefs and hurt someone else - or hurt herself.

Sincerely,
Katie


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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:47:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Amen and hallelujah, Katie! Hearing voices! NuTs
Message:
h
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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 00:50:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Oops! Meant NT. Freudian underware. NT
Message:
k
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:23:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I thought Michele's post was frightening
Message:
I agree, and I am not as tactful as you are, so I will just come right out and say it: she's got a screw loose.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:30:53 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I concur, good post Katie (nt)
Message:
shnorfle
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 10:53:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: Response to your's
Message:
Hey, Moonbeam (I know that's not your moniker, but it seems to fit, somehow, so I'm using it), maybe people come here because they ENJOY it. Otherwise what would be the point? Having real discussion to some people might be more important, and enjoyable, than recycling sugar coated, new age ideas ('watch the colors of life, let light come into your life') ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Seriously, aren't you getting sick of talking like that? It certainly is sickening to hear it after awhile.

Get real.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:48:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: Actually I agree
Message:
I don't know why people attack like they do. Just because some people think differently. But then obviously I think differently too, so I also will be attacked on this page.

However, it is far better to write what you think and feel, rather than write what is contrary to what you feel. That would be a lie.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:12:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Why?
Message:
Dave:

Since when is the way Michele thinks 'different?' I mean, it's different from the way I think, that's for sure; but that in itself hardly makes it valid. I can't find an original thought in the whole kit-and-kaboodle. Can you? You seem to presume that this person is transparent, an assumption central to the position you've taken. (Transparency, even of purely mundane non-rational speech, would be valid in some sense.) Why do you think she's expressing her true feelings, thoughts and intentions? Or are you just assuming this because she's challenging the forum on the basis of it's 'narrowness of purpose.' Again, that hardly makes her speech valid, in and of itself.

Think about this carefully. She's grandiose. She has posted deceptively since her first installment. She's currently grandiose about her contrariness, which is precisely the way she's always been, under other pseudonyms. Are you just susceptible to this sort of person?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:05:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I don't
Message:
You have to put it into context, Dave. This site is where former 'students' of Maharaji gather to release all their pentup frustrations and misgivings concerning Maharaji which we were told again and again were just the illusions of our mind, and we were instructed to keep a lid on it. We were taught not to trust our doubts, that they could only harm us in the long run and keep us from the liberation we sought. In short, we were bamboozled.

Don't you think it's rather refreshing that finally there's a place where you're just encouraged to trust yourself instead of some super being that's supposed to have been to the mountaintop and is, supposedly, our only hope for getting there ourselves. So now, thanks to this website, we have an opportunity to tell people to stuff it where before we were expected to just wimp and let Maharaji and his fuckng cohorts walk all over us. Fuck him, them, and anybody else who says we're unjustified in finally letting the floodgates open and expressing what we really feel that we were always afraid to in the past. It's called freedom, and it feels good.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:02:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mountain Vision
Subject: and furthermore
Message:
It is possible to disagree without attacking the person you disagree with. Attacking and insulting the other person achieves nothing, in my view.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:21:57 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: and furthermore
Message:
And also ....as I've pointed out before, Michele has used this forum (under various aliases ...and with those aliases various stances and personas, I guess ) for a lot longer than I have.

She must know the way the cookie crumbles. With this latest swoop on the forum ( admittedley under her own name...eventually) she has continually played the innocent 'victim' alongside posting outrageous claims about Rawat and his organisation. To expect a SMOOTH ride on a predominantly EX forum ...well what do you think? I'd LOVE the opportunity to ' speak freely ' on a Premie forum .....I wouldn't expect a smooth (always civil ) ride though.

I'm surprised you don't see this.

Cheers

Dermot

PS I don't know whether or not you read my last post to Michele ( some sincere advice! but in my opinion she should take a break and come back when it GENUINELY more appropriate.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:01:01 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The point is Sir Dave...
Message:
Whenever I've written to Michele I have written what I thought and felt rather than write what was contrary to what I felt.

Now at times this may have come across as 'attacking' but that is oftentimes the very nature of a discussion forum. It seems to me ( I may be wrong ) that you are allowing Michele full liberty to say, feel express whatever she wants ( such as how people 'hate' her, how she has no 'free speech', how golden boy is innocent and only his followers & EV should carry the can for all imperfection etc etc etc etc ) but if I or anyone else 'attacks ' her then it's way out of order.

Seems very odd to me.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:11:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Maybe I'm odd then
Message:
because I think Michel should be able to write whatever she likes here. I said in my above post that people can disagree without attacking personally.

What about the background behind the (disagreed with) posts? What about the person who is writing them? Surely that can be considered too.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:38:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maybe, but...
Message:
Dave:

I don't know how you'd go about uncovering dishonesty without attacking someone personally. And that is what people are saying, by and large, about Michele. The fact that you may or may not be 'odd' doesn't give you any automatic 'sympatico' with someone else who is odd. The issue is 'how' you are odd, or outside the norm? And anyway, Michele conforms pretty well to the normal distribution of a well-known population, so she doesn't quite qualify as 'odd,' even if you are.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:11:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why CAN'T anyone see the OBVIOUS???
Message:
I'd uncover dishonesty by letting people have their say. Sooner or later they might slip up. The point is, why do premies post here? They know they're not going to convert anyone to their way of thinking. So I surmise that premies post in self defence.

They are having a battle inside themselves. I think that if we, as ex-premies attack them as well, we are ending the battle they are having inside themseves without any resolution having breen brought about.

You see, when we attack a premie personally, they retreat into their view of this hate filled forum of despicable people. So we've not given them anything new to consider. They'll think -

'Yes, it really is true what Pia says about these people, they are full of hate. Thank God for Maharaji, or Thank Maharaji for God, (whatever).'

Also, when premies have their say, they want an adverse reaction to come from the ex-premies because it confirms their rightiousness. Premies will even goad the ex-premies with extreme statements about Maharaji. They do this because it will arouse such violent opposition that they will feel warmly confirmed that this is a bad place and that they are right.

It's just an unconscious (or subconscious) mind game. I can see that. Why can't others?

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:54:54 (GMT)
From: swami j. suchabanana
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: ok,'discard the negativity'. FA: Ciao, dehra duhn!
Message:
mtmtmtmtmtmtmtmtmtmtmtm

ohm shanty

hairy xmass

rocky mtn. hiiiiiiiiiigh -- crash!!!! prem spam.

I see colors - groovy paisley horses -

wake up, Wake up, Wake Up!!

oh yeah....... I am here and now - but mirage of rugu voodoo has disappeared. Chuangtse - like dreaming one was a butterfly dreaming one was a human being. but, what a Cool LiGhT!!!!

To miragey [and any deluded macko dada gangbungers]: 'Now you go about displaying your knowledge to frighten the ignorant people. You cultivate virtue to show others at a disadvantage. Irradiating brilliance around you, you seem to go about carrying the sun and the moon in your hand. That is why you have got into trouble... the man who achieves fame will be defamed... Tao pervades everywhere, and yet does not show itself, Teh influences everything and yet does not make its name known. Live sincerely and plainly like the others and suffer yourself sometimes to be called a fool. Avoid being conspicuous and keep away from a position of power. Do not live for service and fame. Thus you will not criticize others and others will not criticize you. The perfect man has no thought of reputation.' - The Dregs and Tumors of Virtue.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 04:46:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: There you go Michele
Message:
Straight from the lion's mouth.

This is someone that knows you, blubber himself or an extract from one of Yvette's poem.

I'd rather be flammed.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:04:37 (GMT)
From: suchabanger
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: 'flammed' as in flimm-flammed,I plesume.haha LOL
Message:
hey, yo, me ol' dungi!

here's drinkin' a Foster's to ya!

oops

[100 Hail Merries!]

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:22:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: suchabanger
Subject: Swami found nacked in park
Message:
After getting drunk on F5.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:01:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: so hung---- today. taking 2 aspiraints w/ chai.(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:47:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: Okay, I'll go watch the Mountains...and
Message:
you can just go away. 'Kay?

Bye...

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:19:29 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: looks like Spirit Lake; must be a miragee now (nt
Message:
Hally Tluman, i plesume....
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:19:06 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: miss Silvia
Message:
It is kind of dull without her
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:39:41 (GMT)
From: suchannaba [oups- typa]
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: u in wuv! wowie zowie!! hey, what did dey call
Message:
da guy dey found floating face up in da lake? ---

Y'll b 100 percent together, now - whole from yer toejam 2 yer sole!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:37:35 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: GO TO SATSANG--You're both looser premies
Message:
No, you are. I know looser premies when I see, hear, read them. Why are you wasting your time?

If you WERE having a good experience, you would not relate to being here. Why arn't you at a Kid-Porno Site giving them heck. Or go to KU KLUX KLAN and give them Heck. But NO

Where are you? Go by a dirty book and write the editor and publisher and give them Heck

Get involved with Government Dirty Secrets and Lies and give them Heck. Think about how obvious this is to us?

GoToSatsang, We're not stopping you. Why would you want to fill up your heart with so Hate. If I were a premie, I wouldn't.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:48:16 (GMT)
From: suchabrandxana
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: uh,like, give miragey's dirty laundry heck
Message:
we are like the chlorox for his unremittant caca, bleaching and cleaning cult soiled diapers and ushering the poor toddler phlegmies back into the light of clarity once again.

pees und parentals,

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:24:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MountainVision
Subject: What kind of goofball is THIS one now??
Message:
Shessh! I feel like we're in the last scene of Magnolia only it's raining new age freaks instead of frogs.

Michele accused all the premies who try, quite pathetically, I might add, to serve Maharaji in EV, of being sinister plotters and running dog hooligans (or whatever the Chinese used to say). She accused all the exes of being dark, mean brainwashers. She reserved kind words for five people she knows: Maharaji, Shri Hans, Yogananda, Jesus and herself.

And you ask US to 'discard the negativity'?

Let me guess, you're kind of new-agey, right? I mean you didn't suffer a serious brain injury did you? No, didn't think so. Must be the former.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:04:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What a beautiful image.
Message:
Raining new age freaks instead of frogs.

Laughter was heard on the cliffs.

Anth, who read all your post, honest.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:52:29 (GMT)
From: sucha
Email: None
To: Jima
Subject: Crystals,dude? u a Scorpio?Asparagus risin'?P+L(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:43:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Blast from the Past re Harlan and Mili's page
Message:
[Here's an old message (9/97) re Harlan and Mili's site. 'OP' was a regular premie poster back then. OP, you out there? Who are you anyway? WHAT are you anyway?]

If you don’t already, you might want to check in on Harlan’s Premie Guestbook now and then:

[link omitted because Guestbook long gone as per Maharaji'sagya]

Back when Harlan got going I was one of the few people who logged in.

Harlan was more than friendly. He emailed me all sorts of
encouragement and claimed that he wanted a simple, unfettered forum where premies of all stripes could talk. At the time that meant disgruntled premies like me.I was more than welcome.

Then, one day, I must have done the inexcusable. I mentioned the
fledgling ex-premie site and, in particular, the Mishler interview. All hell broke loose. Harlan emailed me in complete over-the-top petulance –'This is MY SITE! MY! MY! MY!' I tied to apologize but, hey, it’s Harlan’s site. What can I tellyou?

Since then I’ve been banned forever from those hallowed halls. Too bad, because I really did think Harlan once wanted a little discussion there.Instead, all he’s got is a sacharrine fake-fireplace covered with Goomaradgie Greeting Cards. Check out the latest from OP:

'9/19/97

Email: pragonampi@aol.com

Location: not so hidden, whereabouts right here

Comments: Good job, Harlan and Mili. The site is
much more inviting (although I'm not so sure of the little paint
splotches on the home page...but that's just my overly critical mind - I'll have to look at it again...).

I'll try and get some 'THANK YOU's in different
scripts for you. In the meantime, Amaroo or no Amaroo,
my heart is ever grateful that I was picked up and placed
where I have always belonged.

Scrolling through the year's worth of messages,it's so wonderful to see heart old and new, overbrimming with the tenderness
that comes only with a touch to what's real in every one.

M is a diamond, and every new heart he opens cuts
another factet so that he can shine all the brighter. And that facet is your own, the one created just for
you, reflecting back all the brilliance in your heart.

What a wonder of wonders, that we can be joined
at the center to the most brilliant jewel that ever shone!'

OP, dear, thanks for the cookies but, I’ve got to tell you, a little more meditation and you could avoid snagging your loving heart on all this maya. That way you wouldn’t have to apologize so much for your 'overly critical mind' and could, indeed, lay off the scathing criticism. By the way, I don’t mind telling you Katie’s really blue these days. She tells me she thought she’d made a new friend and everything but that you stopped
playing with her! I tell her it’s not her fault, that you stopped playing with me too when you found the play too difficult. Maybe you could clear that up with her? Apparently, something about you clamming up and avoiding some questions or something....

Anyway, Harlan’s revised his page and, it appears, made it impossible to simply copy text from it any longer. Too bad, because only a literal conveyance of such rich entries such as:

'9-19-87

Email: vohlson@oi.aust.com

Location: Australia

Comments: Dear Friends,
Today there was a horrible article about Maharaji
in the Australian Courier Mail.
The 20/8/97 Saying terrible statements about the
Elan Vital program and false statements about Maharaji. It also writes about this web site and about an anti premie site. This sort of news about Maharaji is just terrible and puts a
slight dowse on the magic and excitement of his conference today at Ivorys Rock. But I hope we will be able to put this all
behind us and keep the love alsive. Love Vivien.'

do themselves justice. With Maharaji, life is truly funnier than
fiction. (By the way, if anyone can get their hands on that article, I for one would love to see it).

So, I’d encourage anyone interested to read Harlan’s site regularly. Where else can you find people posting whole excerpts from recent videos where Maharaji’s entire past can be described without mention of his claim to be the 'Greatest Incarnation of God to ever trod the Planet' saviour of mankind, harbinger of the millenium, blah, blah, blah:

'When Maharji first came from India to the West in the early
seventies, he was no more than a boy of 13, and attracted a lot of media attention.
...
He received recognition from local and national governments and was presented with many civic awards for his contribution to humanity.'

Or, offering this 'inside' peek at the real man:

'Maharaji is a family man. While at home, his hobbies and interests include computers, renovating cars, and cooking; he is an inventor, an artist, a poet and a musician. His travels utilize his skills as a highly qualified pilot'

I don’t know, but am I the only one who’s come to distrust anyone who uses 'utilize'? Small point, I know, but, as they say, God is in the details.

Jim

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:54:18 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Blast
Message:
>Here's an old message (9/97)

Things haven't changed that much, have they!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:17:35 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
At Latvian night someone shared with me that she felt she had learned to 'space out' as a result of following m, and that she still felt her thinking was impaired year later. I've been trying to figure out why I didn't experience that. My theory is that I worked at a lot of jobs while in the ashram which required me to use mathematics or other forms of very organized formal thinking skills, and that kept my logical mind in order. I merely suspended it in regard to m, but never in general. Have others experienced this? If so, how have you recovered your ability to think? If not, why do you think you didn't lose it?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:18:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
You were lucky that you had math to keep your mind sharp. In math the numbers added up, but it takes awhile to figure out that the equation of Maharaji + blissful devotees in love with Maharaji= lots of money for Maharaji and potential for abuse!

I had a similar kind of thing in that I continued in college and with career type jobs while a premie. However, I think I was fairly traumaized by my long 2 years of being an aspirant because I really had a rough time getting my articles written for the school paper. It was like these 2 voices were battling inside my head, very bizarre, and I couldn't organize myself.

I found that all that pressure to not think only made me become a compulsive thinker who couldn't turn my mind off. Far better to know how to think than to be told not to think.

I found myself saying 'Let me think that through' alot in my post-premie years. I had to retrain myself to think through something before instantly responding yes or no. A real drawback to being indoctrinated to not think is that one comes to not know what one thinks on a given subject. Of course, all we needed to know is that M was all that mattered and to smile and look goo goo eyes about it all. A very stupid way to live!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:35:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: I'm a gemini with an active mind
Message:
So K didn't make a DENT. It was confusing and disorienting and lead to neurotic behaviour and thinking, however, to see my mind and other people's minds as the enemy. It's simply a load of hooey.

Although I don't believe in Buddha per se, the Buddhist meditations and philosophy helped me quite a bit, because they say that the ultimate truth IS the true nature of the mind. That doesn't mean all the thoughts floating around are the true nature in and of themselves, but they arise naturally from the mind, and dissipate naturally, if we don't start wrestling them like an anaconda.

Since my mind and body and consciousness are the ONLY receivers I have for this life I've been given, that put me RIGHT BACK in the driver's seat. I don't have to deny or suppress anything. Even disturbing emotions like anger, at their base, energetic level (without all the thoughts and resultant actions) are pure. (Keeps me from doing and saying some really crazy things, when I can give in to that.)

Their beliefs about reincarnation, who knows. One quote from the goober does apply here: 'Die and see.' Now the goober is on his breatharian theory and talks a lot of trash about breath and death. He should remember his own quote and hush his mouth.

Love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 06, 2001 at 01:00:57 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Another Active Mind
Message:
Yeah, I've got a Gemini moon and my mind never stopped (or stops) either. I used to sit under my blanket and concoct huge fantasies instead of meditating. Oh, I'd have my fingers in my ears or supposedly be remembering Holy Name (how stupid that sounds now), but I'd be fantasizing all over the place all kinds of stuff. I just used to sit back and watch it entertain me. I used to feel guilty about it back then, but now I quite enjoy having an active and enquiring mind, it makes me feel alive. Just watching your breath is BORING. Thinking is a much more interesting way to feel alive and connected, IMO.

Good post, Fran, I liked your description of the Buddhist views. Practicing Buddhism for awhile really helped me see that the thoughts and mind were not the enemy, but an integral part of being human--but to not give them the weight we otherwise would, instead watch them go by 'like clouds on the far horizon', as Rinpoche used to say. Beautiful metaphor. So much easier and enjoyable than trying to transcend or stuff them altogether, which for me was next to impossible.

I don't feel like practicing K actually harmed my ability to think, just suspended it for all those years. Doing some University study now, I see that it's still there, was just lying somewhat dormant. I think the mind is sort of like a muscle, you have to exercise it in order to keep it in good working order.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:43:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
WF:

Unfortunately, I never regained my ability to think. At least, I don't think so.

--Scott 'often suffering from endorphine-induced stupidity' T.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:32:33 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Come off it Scott T...
Message:
Too modest, too modest.......you sure know how to think :))

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:44:15 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
Definitely happened to me.

I think the basic cause is the sitting for hours and sloshing around in mystical stuff that, as an individual, you have no part in bringing into existence. The thing about creative thinking is that you have to put it there yourself.

The formula I was offered was that k was a pole to give Mr. mind something to shunt up and down on, and so keep his energies harmlessly occupied. A cognitional treadmill, courtesy of the mystic East. The possibility of actually engaging the dread thinking process and steering it, was a definite no no, and I bought in. Other less dreamy, more balanced types seemed able to function actively and used their brains in positive material ways, as I now see. Myself however, I was born a bit mystic and as soon as I saw the light etc. I just dived in! Bye Bye world. There followed two decades of psychic megalomania, fuelled by daily baths in the contents of K dreaming and fuck knows what else that happened to float in through my open window.

K might actually be quite good for quietening down rampant egotistical world campaigners (PPSR for example), but for me, I needed guidance with it, and wasted a lot of time because of lack of precise personal feedback. I am now well back on track howver and have been for about five years. Thousands aren't.

The HABIT of meditating was a good thing to cultivate. I am now able to sit down and do inner work regularly and creatively. Thinking is now at the centre of my inner life. Hell of a detour though.

love Bryn

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:29:39 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
GREAT POST! Very well written and I agree with it.
This made me bust out laughing:

'K might actually be quite good for quietening down rampant egotistical world campaigners'

Thanks for a laugh today!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:57:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
Hi Wildflower,

phew, tell me about it, it's like you know, you sort of get into a, like moment or something and all the, it's like stuff, but you sort of, well I guess you think it but then when you're sort of looking at something, you kindof forget the thing that was, but it's gone now, but it's OK really because, like you're still alive right? I mean, that's one thing we all sort of feel the same feeling when we're like talking about something or writing somthing on a computer and it's like you're really talking to yourself all the time because even though it's like there are other people, you know, you sort of are really, doing something that makes you feel really that if you were made of tin or something, you'd probably be rusty by now.

Err,.. hang on, I'll remember my name in a minute.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:41:54 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
Hi Wildflower

I don't agree that practising k means one loses the ability to THINK per se. I've known a lot of academic folks who've handled thinking and practising k simultaneously,more than adequatley.
Nuclear physicist,Doctor of psychology etc etc.

I think Jerry hit the nail on the head ....losing or at least suspending CRITICAL thinking where m is concerned.

Also, in my case (this may or not be typical)there was definitely a case of not being able to sustain MOTIVATION to pursue academic study in view of my interpretation of m's teachings and exhortations. Being the spacy scatterbrain I am (high IQ but low on effort) perhaps I also used m's influence as a convenient excuse :))

Cheers

Dermot

PS ...a little bit OT but just thought I'd mention this....I notice a lot of American spelling around here (though I'm not fully genned up on American English) so when I write words such as 'defence, practising etc' I'm just writing English ...I'm not a crap speller :))))) Well occasionally I slip up on my spelling.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 08:44:46 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: correction: 'adequately ' :)))))))))) (nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:31:14 (GMT)
From: suchabandonana
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: uh,.duh,.uh,.duh,.uh,.duh...hahahahahahaha!PhD(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:46:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
Hey Wildflower, so great to see you Saturday night. I figured out it had been about 18 years since I last saw you. You haven't changed a bit, but you sure seem happier now.

I don't think I lost my ability to think, it's just as a premie I learned to repress things really well, and that process can become automatic after a time, and you have to unlearn the process. I also learned to be less confident of my own thoughts and opinions, because as a premie you were supposed to understand you were worthless dust without must ability to know what is going on.

I completely lost the ability to be critical or to critically even look at Maharaji when I was a premie. It was unthinkable to criticize him, and that is the one true characteristic of a premie. They are unable to do that, and if they do they are on their way out. Michele, for example, is to the point of being furious with the organization, but can't bring herself to understand that Maharaji IS the organization.

When I became able to do that, I was gone from the cult for good and could never go back. It was broken for good.

I also seemed to lose a lot of self-objectivity, or at least I said and wrote ridiculous and embarrassing things without noticing I was doing it, much to my chagrin now.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:59:48 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Wildflower
Subject: You talkin' about me, girlfriend?
Message:
If so, that's fine. If not, excuse my inflated sense of self importance. We did talk about this on Saturday, and I've mentioned it before on the forum.

When I got into law school just after leaving the cult, I was amazed at the difficulty I had in engaging in critical thinking and analysis. I had been a fantastic test taker and had excelled at my studies before I became a devout premie.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:45:13 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You talkin' about me, girlfriend?
Message:
No, actually it was someone else with whom I had a rather extended conversation on the subject. Thanks for your response, though!
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:10:39 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Marianne
Subject: U2?
Message:
I ended up putting it down to living in the 60's/70's and the inherent influences, or just getting older. Being a teacher,i've particularly noticed that critical thinking and analytical skills are the VERY ones I have trouble getting the dendrites around. I often thought about k influencing my sub-ability to make decisions in the past-but I was a premie at the time and dismissed it (naturally!),but who knows? Glad u brought it up.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:35:41 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
Wildflower, I think I LUV U! Hey, I have been giving this a lot of thought.

Two years ago I fell into a depression, clinical depression. Now I have been attending University so this you can imagine was a Big Academic Problem as well. I started seeing a psychiatrist and tried some prescription medication. It helped jump start me back to functionalbility but nothing. When this realization WHACKED me in the head two weeks ago I completely lost it! But the good news is I discovered by my RELEASE how intricate my post premie reality was affected. I was well removed from the BigHead both physically and proximity wise. But when I had that Door FLUNG open all kinds of shit came out. It's like finding a concept that had you captive but discovering when it comes out that it has a string with all kinds of other things Past, and Present and even Post BigHead. That's why my anxiety is so Lucid. I am seeing stuff come out I didn't (consciously) know I had.

Does that shed light on your question?

Sincerely, Deborah
p.s. I have not been on medication or feeling depressed. But now I realize what I've been depressing. Let the Healing begin!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:38:17 (GMT)
From: Bon
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
About 10 years I think.
Before getting kn. I had overdosed on megadoses LSD a year before.
Mentally I was not stable and my thinking was very fast, not at all under control. very uncomfortable.
Meditation was of course very,very hard but I did get more peace of mind after a while and I did feel safe in the ashram.
This kept me very close in the cult because the first years there was a very real threat of terrifying mental illness.
mahas antipathy against the mind was very understandable of course.
After 2 years I was improving a lot, could have been knowledge but also the safe environment + time. I started asking myself many questions, all very politically correct, about yoga, lineages, brain anatomy, and became more creative. Even then I did feel restriction from the other premies, I was on a mindtrip, etc etc. from day one there was a tendency in DLM/EV of losing color, becoming more and more gray. Even watching a squirrel was mind!
I rediscovered reading in '76, this was my greatest help in thinking.
Because of the avoidance , and later the inability, because I never really learned how, to analise my life and making strategic discussions, I never made the right choices about going back to school. Also learning social skills was very hard, most social skills learned the hard way.
OK, I had very dysfunctional teenage years and have ADD, so I did have to catch up anyway.
Only the last 10 years I am able to an extent to ask critical questions, and make conclusions because of it. One time I did an IQ-test which came out skyhigh (A lot of times when I got a new job my co workers thought I was mildly(?) retarded.)
There is such a wealth of knowledge and cool stuff out there, and there is also so much to watch out for.
I still feel vulnerable going out,meeting women, because of my incredible talent to end up with the wrong person. (and shyness)
What helped me more than anything to shut up my negative forced thinking: Time and not speaking my first language. Somehow this forced thinking is programmed to only occur in Dutch but not in English.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 04:51:42 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Losing the ability to think due to practicing k
Message:
By the way I love your posts Wildflower. I feel for me the ability to think and think critically is coming back. I feel during my ashram days and later premi house, etc, etc I was conditioned not to think. M will give you everything I heard again and again. Mind is not good. So I stopped using my thinking capabilities. I am relearning now.
I am still grieving the loss of the cult plus other stuff. The cult took up every iota of energy I had. I had no life I had the cult. Sheesh, so as we say it is never too late to start. I need to remember to be kind and gentle to myself.
Love,

Mercedes

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:40:04 (GMT)
From: BOB
Email: None
To: Bon
Subject: Uh oh, typo! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:00:55 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Poisonous rantings of the Lard from 1978
Message:
Sorry to bring everyone down, but whilst looking for a tambourine I came across a tape of Rawat-the-poisoner from 1978 (Geneva)... so I thought I'd share his profound wisdom with you.. This is highlights from the bit at the end where he always got a bit effusive and carried away with himself... he's just told a tedious tale about people looking for a necklace in sewage then GM comes and climbs a tree and finds it (I know it doesn't make sense - don;t blame me!) here goes then...

'But here's the thing - that we see the reflection of joy, of beauty, Our mind sees the reflection of love, of beauty, of that perfection , of that truth, in this, in this maya, in this illusion, in this world, and we dive into it. And Guru Maharaji, you know,just like sees us diving into sewage, and he says 'What are you doing? What are you diving into the sewage for?' And then he comes and he says 'no - that thing, THAT THING THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR [shouting bit] is not here, not in this illusion, it's somewhere else' - then reveals it to us...
Guru Maharaji is not saying give this love to this chair..
Guru Maharaji does not want your cars - he's got plenty of them[!!]
I don't want that.
I want you because you have that faith in me. You have to have that belief in me because you are the one that I will have to carry from one side of that ocean to the other side - not your car - it's not a ferry...
All Guru Maharaji is saying is very very simple you know.
And its just- have that love, have that faith, come together and make that little effort
How can it be more simpler you know - any more simpler than that and it would be too sophisticated'[??!}

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:13:49 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: 'the whole world is a jail'
Message:
Little Prempal is following in his father's footsteps here. He is now the one to save us from all this sewage. The latest Shri Hans satsang to be reprinted over at Satpal's website in their June 'magazine,' is all about the wheel of transmigration, the 8.4 speecies of life, and how the guru is the only one who can save us from the suffering that we have imposed on ourselves by our past sins. This is the worst of religion.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:43:30 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Way
Subject: 'the whole world is a jail' - the full text!!!
Message:
Here, for your entertainment, fellow 'bandits', 'murderers' and 'staff members'(???), is the utter bollocks that Way is referring to:

'Discourse- Param Sant Sadgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj

Manav Dharam (June 2001)
You are here because of your misdeeds. In the same way, the whole world is a jail and we are here because of our past misdeeds. If you had done nothing wrong, would you be here? Some of you are thieves, some are bandits, and some are murderers. There are also staff members here - those who come here only to earn a wage. People come here for other reasons, too. Occasionally, people come here just to look around. Then there is myself, who has come neither to look around nor because of any crime, nor for a wage. I have no selfish motive in coming here. I am here only for your sake, to offer you some ideas which will benefit you spiritually. Saints come into this prison of a world simply to deliver souls from the chains of birth and death.'

Love Moldy who is full of the impurites of this world. Hurrah, diddly dum xxx

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:53:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: The scariest part
Message:
I do hope that I am not a staff member. I prefer to think of myself as one of those who came here just to look around. Be that as it may, what really worries me is this warning by Shri Hans later on in that satsang: 'If you are reborn in a non-human species, shops will not be available to you.' No! No! Not that! Save me, Maharaji!
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:52:12 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Don't be scared Way - the Great Goddess Ikea
Message:
will come to the rescue.. though will we need Swedish furniture if we are reborn as ants?... possibly I think...
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:40:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Those 8 billion 4 million forms of suffering
Message:
Are a real scare tactics. The Tib. Buddhist have 6 realms, with loads of subrealms. All sorts of hot and cold hells with elaborate descriptions.

I used to call it spiritual 'crowd control.' Now i think it's way worse than that. Yuck!

--f (not going to YOUR hell, dudes)
To quote one of my old songs: 'If you believe in hell, go on ahead and burn.'

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:26:29 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Jeez, willya listen to the guy?
Message:
This is what it comes down to, His instructions to his premies: love, faith and belief. Is there anything here about loving one's family, serving one's brothers and sisters, expanding one's awareness through meditation? (Three worthwhile endeavors, if you ask me.) No!

Just: love ME! Believe in ME! Have faith in ME!

What a creep.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:04:36 (GMT)
From: mr.bojangles
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Sewage imbedded in my consciousness.
Message:
I remember the rant, it seemed so familiar, then I remembered I was there, I got to collapse in the darshan line, I thought I was being lifted by angels but on retrospect I probably fainted from the smell of the rotting sewage,and shite I was diving into looking for pearls.Bo
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:04:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: I love you, Moldy Warp (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:14:11 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I love you too my Nigel(nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:10:41 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: yeah, + if you don't eat your veges they'll rot
Message:
in your basement.

Also, 'Guru Maharaji does not want your cars - he's got plenty of them.' Hey, the brakes are shot on my ol' beater auto. So, of course he doesn't want one of OUR crummy cars.

How 'bout one of those Mercedes, m.? I know what to do with it. You sure don't need all those cars, right? I mean, lots of prems and ex-prems who gave you their money could use a decent working car right now.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:27:17 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Guru Maharaji doesn't want your cars
Message:
Did any of us actually HAVE cars in 1978???
I didn't even have a pair of roller skates.
Moldy Warp who feels bitter and twisted and would like Rawat to buy me a space cruiser urgently please (EV MONITOR PLEASE NOTE)
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:51:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: No rollerskates or skateboards here either n/t
Message:
love ya' Mouldy
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:16:20 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Francesca
Subject: No rollerskates or skateboards here either n/t
Message:
love ya too Francesca. Email me if yer like.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 07:10:46 (GMT)
From: suchalamborghanbani
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: be carful what you wish 4! LOL Peace + Lentils(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:47:59 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: suchalamborghanbani
Subject: be carful what you wish 4! LOL Peace + Lentils(nt
Message:
You've lost me there Such... care to elaborate???
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:48:44 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: i.e. be carful what u wish 4,it might come true(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:37:17 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Yeh I know that Such - but wotdoyer mean????!nt
Message:
x
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:14:31 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Report Re EV Vancouver
Message:
I went to the satellite venue yesterday at 4:00 as advertised to follow maharaji's agya and 'keep in touch'. The phone message said that all events begin at 4:00 unless otherwise stated. They said that yesterday's event was to be a recording of a 4:00 PM broadcast but they did not state a time so I went in the afternoon.

The lobby was totally blocked off by a tall black curtain with a sign that said 'private event - keep out'. Very strange. I was early and heard some familiar voices planning something. I came back at 4:00 and the curtain was still there. Someone came out and told me that the event started at 7:30. I went somewhere else and never made it back, but when I got home I noticed that the phone message was clarified.

So I never got to keep in touch with the mster. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with his website as his organ to be kept in touch with. What a bitch trying to follow god's agya when his people are in confusion.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:34:43 (GMT)
From: You tried.......
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: u didn't lose much, anyway. Thanks. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:07:08 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: In defense of Elan Vital and premie volunteers...
Message:
Premies like Michelle seem to believe that Elan Vital is the problem behind everything M. is blamed for. This is very much the current PWK belief. I also believed it for a while. But I also saw that the church ladies and other sincere volunteers were attending, and even paying for, all sorts of ''trainings'' they were going to where they were being taught how to participate properly, and be ''syncronized''.

I saw the Atlanta seminar training video that Maharaji did himself, where he told people that the most dangerous time for anyone to talk about knowledge, was when they were feeling full of inspiration. The focus of the training was that we had to be syncronized, that we all needed to be talking about Knowledge in the same way at the same time. To propagate, we need only mention the POSSIBILITY of Knowledge, then refer the victim - excuse me, ''potential aspirant'' - to the appropriate video or other sterile, propaganda material that had been carefully edited for that purpose.

Maharaji is training these people, and training other people to train people. The emphasis on syncronization is HIS. The purpose of these trainings IS syncronization. He's making the decisions, and dissent is NOT tolerated. He has said flat out that if you don't like the way things are being done, then get out of the way so someone else can take your place. He said we should NOT criticize, but rather ask, ''How can I help?''. The premies who volunteer are doing just that, and bending over backwards to do what he wants. I did it for a while, and it wasn't fun. It was boring and draining.

Again and again, the volunteers would say they only wanted to serve the Master, and do what Maharaji wanted them to do. That was the main focus. They devote many long hours to meetings and trainings, and give as much financial support as they can.

It's obscene the way M. encourages the premies to blame EV, and the many volunteers who are giving so much of themselves to doing what he wants. It's so INSULTING. They must think he is God or somehow divine, because I can't see how else they would put up with that kind of disrespect and lack of appreciation. He even ridiculed them at Amaroo. When I heard about that, I cringed for all those volunteers I know, even the church ladies, who have been giving so much of their time and money. M's ingratitude is incredible.

Maharaji is not only the the Master of Revisionism, he's also the Master of shitting in his own nest. He encourages premies to idolize him, then uses that as a license to abuse them. If and when the premies are able to see through the paranoia that's been used to hold them, they leave him. And understandably, are hurt and angry.

He's gained a lot of material things, but at the cost of losing a lot of the love and respect people have wanted to give him. As long as he looks down on the premies from Throne of the Master, he's choosing money and power over people, as more important than simple love and respect between equals, equals being just regular human beings, the equality just being our humanity.

Meeting so many of the exes at SF Latvian night recently, I've seen what he didn't value. Has he any idea of what he's lost?

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:26:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Three steps to heaven ...
Message:
Weird isn't it?

step 1
the Maha asks for devotion (or whatever today's buzz-word for getting involved is)

step 2
premies do what he tells them to do (to the best of their ability)

step 3
the Maha begins to criticise the things those premies have done and ends up blaming them for doing what he asked them to do in the first place!

.
.
.
.
sheeesh


(On a more tragic note, that last step really did lead some premies to 'heaven'. Quite a few of us who post here (myself included) know of at least one premie whose head got so screwed around by such sado-masochistic trips, that they felt there was no alternative but to take the final, and fatal, 4th step to 'heaven').

If only they had known how to say 'goodbye' to the Maha, instead of to their own existence.

Hmmmmm.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:18:15 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: The merry-go-round of EVand premie volunteers...
Message:
Hi Chuck

Agree with what you said, especially:

'Maharaji is training these people, and training other people to train people. The emphasis on syncronization is HIS. The purpose of these trainings IS syncronization. He's making the decisions, and dissent is NOT tolerated. He has said flat out that if you don't like the way things are being done, then get out of the way so someone else can take your place. He said we should NOT criticize, but rather ask, ''How can I help?''. The premies who volunteer are doing just that, and bending over backwards to do what he wants. I did it for a while, and it wasn't fun. It was boring and draining.'

I got bemused about what I termed constructive being viewed as 'criticism'. Any so-called criticism was viewed as dissent. Really playing with people and screwing them over. Not a good or healthy thing to do.

It's so true that everyone is bending over backwards to do what he wants. EV is made out to be this big boogey man, 'THEM', when really it is just a bunch of ordinary people trying their hardest to do exactly what he wants. Because they love him, many do this even if they personally don't agree, and it only changes when he decides it should, usually after realization sinks in, yet once again, that it hasn't worked. The endless merry-go-round, boring as you say.

In one way though, I think the merry-go-round is now spinning so fast that some people are hanging on dizzy and disorientated with all their might, keeping their eyes closed because they feel so sick. Whereas other poor souls are being flung off before they know what hits them, but scramble desperately to get back on. But how can they when it's just a blur as it goes past. Others just sit back, scratching their head and wonder what happened.

I'm glad I jumped off when I did.


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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 10:03:12 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: parisw@ozemail.com.au
To: Connie
Subject: Me too.I'm glad that merry go roung ride.ended.
Message:
Hi Connie,
I am sorry we got off to a bumpy ride.I am glad your exing is going well.I have been enjoying life lately and not posting so much these days.

Cheers Tony(formerly Aussi Ji)

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:44:15 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: Me too, thanks
Message:
Hi Tony

No problem, I suppose things take time.

I'm not posting much either.

Those first few weeks were fast and furious. It was very cathartic, sometimes intensely so. I will look back to it as the 'big purge of '01!'

Cheers to you too, gotta run....

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:59:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: In defense of Elan Vital and premie volunteers...
Message:
The only reason people hold Elan Vital responsible for anything less than perfect in Maharaji's organization is because Maharaji can't be thought of as screwing anything up. He only perfects things. If something gets fucked up, somebody else must have done it. God forbid Maharaji should ever be held responsible. Do that and you take all the air out of the balloon. Who needs Maharaji if he's just another fuckup?

And they tell me it's not a cult.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:32:05 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Very well put. Nothing to add. (nt)
Message:
idhacryi
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:05:43 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yeah that's it Jerry (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:16:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Many people in high places with too much power
Message:
... go crazy. I only worry about the Jim Jones stuff. How brainwashed are these people, some of whom I know???

Thank goodness my close ones don't do the volunteer work any more, so they are a bit less reachable. I wonder if they make money pitches on the vids though, would you know?

Also wonder if there's a place online where watchers can rate video programs. I'm sure the premies are ratcheting up the praise with DishNetworks. Some of us with dishes could do the same. I'm dishless, so I'm no help there!

--f

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:39:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia
Message:
Right, I know you read this so lets not play games. First your in trouble with Jim, so you'd better cover your ass somehow. I also think your in trouble with your master. Did you get permission to publish this site before you did it? Or is this some crack pot scheem that Ev is using. Look mate, get this, PREMIES HAVE NO BALLS, so stop fighting, you are a bunch of 'looser' like your master. Finally You have been up and running for a while, and you know as much as I do that you have revieved dozens of replies. So where are they. It's BLOODY TIME that you come up with something, the neighbors are getting restless. We told you did not we. You really shouldn't have gotten yourself into this, you will be barbeque in no time.

Best wishes

Salam@rawatsucks

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:35:56 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Being on the hot spot
Message:
Hi you all,

I haven't been much on the Internet this weekend, enjoying the weekend and nice weather in France.

I've read the stuff on Pia's website, and I have to be honest I've been emotionally disturbed by the fact EV is pointing at me (and a few others) as some sort of public enemy, and saying that I haven't taken responsibility for my past involvement ! I guess any 'normal' person can see that a person like me, who have been involved in m's movement and who's become such a critic after leaving is INDEED a person taking responsibility exposing my past mistakes and blindness.

What they call being responsible I guess, would be not saying anything when you know there are lots of things going on in EV and around m that are unacceptable (like the jagdeo issue, the financial pressures, m's obscene lifestyle etc).

What's also blatant for me is that Pia and whoever is putting this website up, hasn't read much of what I wrote, or what's actually been written and said in the media about m and EV.

They've just copied EV France PR's reports on their page, they've not even checked the English (maybe better than mine though).

And they don't analyze and answer the critics. I was expecting a bit of a better work from their side !

They took short excerpts of the Combat review, not even saying what they think about it. I guess the readers will just be motivated to read the whole stuff (which should be available online any day - in French at least for the moment).

They also mention the fact that 'JM Kahn has filed an official complaint asking for a financial audit of Elan Vital.' I don't know how they've got that information, but that's true.

I had to do this in order to protect myself from EV's attacks. I don't want them to be able to sue me when there are evidence of EV's financial malpractices (and I did what's necessary to legally protect those evidences).

Combat is still waiting for EV's lawyers to sue them, nothing happened so far !

I guess that is mere threats, or a manoeuver to see what Combat's journalists have in store! I still doubt they'll sue, for fear that the details of what they say is libelous will be available in detail. I doubt they want that!

But they're such idiots (and that's been proven many times in the past) that anything is possible!

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:43:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Amateurish/Transparent Nonsense -- a Suggestion
Message:
J-M,

I'm sure it's a weird feeling to be suddenly accused of being a ringleader of an evil cause, but rest assured that's just because you are very effective at what you are doing. Now we are seeing the backlash, desperate and inane as it is.

I've been debating with myself whether Elan Vital had anything to do with Pia's site. They might, because they are incredibly incompetent, because Pia's site is just about the worst thing a premie could do to damage Maharaji's cause. I'm not sure if Elan Vital is THAT stupid, but maybe they are.

For example, why on EARTH would you REPRINT damaging and negative material about your 'master' including translating it into other lanugages so more people can read it? Not too bright. Downright insane, if you ask me.

And why would you bother to say that all the negative stuff about Maharaji is lies, and then offer not one statement of explanation or proof as to why that is the case. Even premies can see the problem with that. It's nuts. It's a basic tenent of PR that if you can't answer the allegations, you don't bring more publicity to the allegations. You don't aid the enemy. Yet that's exactly what Pia and Mr. Strait are doing. Nuts.

I agree with Brian that Pia's site will likely disappear, but I frankly hope it doesn't.

I have a suggestion J-M, have you pointed out Pia's website to the French press? Let them interview you, as well as Dettmers, Donner and Heller to answer the allegations. That would be very nice to see.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:27:45 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks for the support, and yes
Message:
I've pointed Pia's website to the Combat's journalists I'm not trying to 'influence' !!

One of the reason I think they're acting on EV's behalf, is that they're outing an information NOBODY had, namely the fact that I filed a complaint re EV's financial fraud to authorities. I had to do this.

Very few people knew about it. I find 2 possible explanations to their discovery:

1/ They listen to my phone calls or spy on me some way .....

or

2/ They've got the info through their lawyer (an influential politician in France) who might have some political or technical connection to the prime miniter's office ......

Then the information has been purposely forwarded to Pia and her friends.

That also means they're very much worried about the issue ...... , still wonderding why, given EV is not a cult and Mr Rawat has nothing to hide !!

Not that I wanted to hide the information, they'll soon enough know about it. Maybe we'll learn more about this leak later on ....

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:36:25 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It bothers me too, J-M
Message:
Especially the stuff they have written about you on that site. And you are correct that they obviously haven't read much of the ex-premie site, and certainly don't understand the reason it exists in the first place. Both these things make me angry.

It also really makes me upset that you have been labeled as 'a former leader' and as 'not taking responsibility for your past involvement'. Like I said, they don't read the site, or they don't understand what they read, if they do read it. First, you were NOT a 'leader' and in a position to make changes in DLM/EV policy. Secondly, you HAVE taken personal responsibility for many thing you did when involved with Maharaji.

One of the things that has bothered me the most over the past few days is how negative certain premies seem to have become: Pia, 'William Strait' the editorialist, and a few of the premies who post here. Nothing good to say at all. This is quite depressing to me.

Take care - and lots of love -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 09:45:29 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Don't worry JM
Message:
They wouldn't DARE ( Seriously they wouldn't) take action against you or anyone else.

It would open up a can of worms they want to keep FIRMLY SHUT.

The light of public exposure would be as welcome to them as daylight to Dracula.

That's how I see it at any rate.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:15:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: JM. See Jim's thread below
Message:
in case you missed it:

http://www.ex-premie.org/forum5/main.cgi?key=1OXH

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:27:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Pia has known Maharaji most of her life.
Message:
Hi salam,

I just had another look at Pia's site. In the introduction, she says, 'I have known Maharaji most of my life.'

I wonder what she means by this.

Does she class going to see him in a hall with a few thousand other people as 'knowing him'.

If that's the case, I know the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan, Queen, George Michael, the other Queen, etc.

I don't get it. I don't think she's ever been out with him. I'm not sure even if she's spoken to him. What does she mean, she's known him most of her life?

Perhaps it was a typo. Maybe she meant to say she's know of him most of her life.

Anth the curious.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:43:47 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What's the use of Pia's website ? Premies' I guess
Message:
I tried to think a bit of what's the possible use of her website.

OK, first before reading anything, I thought she was into showing something neat about m & k, and trying to have some honest discussion/argument with m detractors.

Then I read what was already on the website, and the only conclusion I can get to is that it's really a bad start for a website !!! At every level !!

Nothing to say about her reverence for her master - Pia's page and 1st editorial - her life, that's her business. Fine. Whatever she wants to believe in ! She wants to defend her master, great !!

But then you start reading on the few issues she's bringing up, I wonder what's her point, how she thought her website would be built around this and have some credibility and/or interest for anybody, even premies !

1/ You will find excerpts from the press reports under 'What the critics say,' an editorial, a staff article, and selected reader comments. If you want to express your views, you might address these two questions: How do you really know Elan Vital is not a cult? and, How do you really know Maharaji is not in it for the money?

There are technical answers to these questions that rely on records and historical fact, but the question here is how can the person who has known Maharaji and his work over time express what they know from their own experience and thinking.

You get to wonder what the critics actually say ! Not talking of answers .... but wait. I don't doubt we'll get some answers!

2/ Next chapter : What the critics say ?

The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.

All of these now claim that they were unwittingly working for a cult while in fact they were instrumental in forming and implementing the very organizational policies and practices they are now criticizing.

We view their desire to spread rumors and false allegations against Maharaji and Elan Vital at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices.

At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers. If there was a cult in those days, it existed in the minds of people like this fueled by an ambition to make Maharaji and his work conform to their own private visions.

That's all ? I guess any reader will try to know more about it, and search for EPO to understand what's behind all this !!!!!

3/ Then you finally get to 'Current Focus', where you'll find some excerpts of what happened with the French media.

That even raises more questions !!!

I guess I'll send her an email offering my contribution to answer her readers' questions ! Or maybe she wants them all to come on EPO ?

Seriously, I'm going to send her an email.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 16:51:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I have been thinking about this
Message:
Pia is terminally ill, perhaps she feels her one last act of meaning in this world will be defending her master's 'good' name. Maybe she really hasn't read the sites or posts, my guess is not, and she is just doing this from, it can't be true my master is good....

In that light it is very sad.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 17:55:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: another (admittedly bizarre) theory
Message:
Given that Pia's site is so obviously damaging to Rawat and his cult, and given that Pia is an intelligent person, and given that Pia realizes her life is coming to a close, maybe this is her 'revenge' for having wasted so much of her life on a fraud.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 21:38:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry, you forget...
Message:
You have to leave your intelligence at the door when you enter Captain Rawats world.

Anth, and I thought it was only my shoes.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:53:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: maybe not that bizarre
Message:
I wondered the same thing, especially when she reprinted the news article that had been previously unavailable in English. How does she think that helps?

And the 'ain't so'. I realize English isn't her first language but that statement is used almost exclusively by people who do not want to believe the obvious when confronted by it....

'say it ain't so' is what a betrayed husband might say to his wife when confronted with overwhelming evidence of her betrayal. 'say it ain't so' is what a premie might say to the guru when confronted with the evidence that the guru is a greedy, self serving, child molesting ignoring, hit and run driving, gluttonous, pathetic coward. Pia may be screaming, in her own way, to her Lord, 'please say it ain't so Lord, I want to believe in you'.

She doesn't even have the guts ( except by printing that article ) to take on point by point what it is that isn't so. Just a broad brush it 'ain
t so' it can't be because she believes in him. Rather like a betrayed spouse who would rather live in denial than leave. And if she is facing death, she may be very angry at those who are shaking her faith because 'religous' beliefs do bring a lot of solace to people who are dying.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:48:31 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: they both have the same dog trainer
Message:
http://www.kamercanine.com/clientel.htm
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:58:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Hi Susan.
Message:
Hi Susan,

Pia's an old friend. She's Danish. I never even knew she had a dog.

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Anth the bad cold (if god was snot I'd be realised ten times over).

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:27:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Hello Susan! but link doesn't work n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 17:20:55 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Wish the images would go away again
Message:
Awful pictures of M over there.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:42:51 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Pia
Message:
Hi Salam. You're right on the money with Pia.

You will be happy to know that during Latvian Night we logged onto rawatsucks and looked at the yacht. Some of the folks here had never visited rawatsucks. They loved your introduction and were disgusted by the yacht.

Keep up the good work!

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:28:02 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pia
Message:
How do you get on rawatsucks? You can email this to me Marianne.
And I agree with Deneanne that the pictures do suck.
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:46:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: My pleasure
Message:
I haven't been to rawatsucks for a while. I think a decoration is in order. Am working on WackAMonkey. But that's top secret at present.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:00:07 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is that great cult-or-not questionnaire ???
Message:
It was a yes/no list of questions about whether a given group is a cult or has cult-like characteristics, something like that. It was recently posted here, and I've just spent almost an hour trying to find it again, to really look at it closely. Unfortunately I forget who originally posted it.

So much activity, it's great, but whew . . . .

Has anyone forwarded that cult questionnaire to poor Pia? I wonder if it would make a dent.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:47:29 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: The questionnaire is on EPO....
Message:
Hi Carl,

If you click on the 'site map' on Ex-Premie.org main page, it will take you to a page which has the questionnaire. It's under the heading ''Breaking Away.''

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 17:20:16 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: FOUND IT : (Tim Mathieson June 3 post ) / nt
Message:
yowza
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:59:10 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That's not it, there's another one, yes/no in form
Message:
but thank you for the detour! It led to some great areas I hadn't yet browzed around in. Verrrrry very interesting!

Note to new exes: Dig around! There are some extraordinarily thought-provoking links and resources in 'Breaking Free'.

The list/questionnaire I'm remembering was imbedded in someone's recent post, within the last 4 days or so. I guess it was very similar to the trancenet Steve Hassan questions. Which were very direct. Hell, I'm probably hallucinating or dreamt it.

I wonder what would have happened were those questions widely known or asked of us when we were in our late teens, early twenties, the ages when idealism and altruism are coursing through our minds just as frisky hormones are coursing through our veins.

Taking advantage of innocent vulnerability and gullability of youths that age is particularly despicable. Reminds me of the cynical expedience of sending strapping young lads off to slaughter or be slaughtered in the name of 'patriotism' or 'jihad' or some other indoctrination. Yes, let's 'save the world' and help the LORDGODALMIGHTY establish peace on earth within our lifetime.

Hallelujah everybody.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 17:48:24 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: new or hesitant exes
Subject: Here are KEY QUESTIONS for Fence-Sitting Premies,
Message:
...or exes, or any person, any time, anywhere. This is good stuff, imo, questions we should have been asked, or asked of ourselves, 30 years ago. Ah, well. . .

REPOSTED from Tim M. June 3 post:

Self Quiz
Are you 'UNDER THE INFLUENCE' of a destructive group or belief system?
Self Quiz
For Religious/Ideological Groups
Source: John D. Goldhammer website
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find out :
1. Does your group discourage doubts, criticism or ideas that differ from their belief system?
Yes____No____
2. Do you tend to rationalize whatever the group does even when it goes against your sense of right and wrong?
Yes___ No___
3. Do you often feel exhausted from lengthy group activities, meetings and projects?
Yes___ No___
4. Does your group have its own unique words, clichés, slogans, chants, prayers and doctrinal phrases that reinforce the group viewpoint?
Yes___ No___
5. Are doubts viewed as a lack of faith, dedication, commitment or disloyalty?
Yes___ No___
6. Have 'your thoughts' become 'the enemy?'
Yes___ No___
7. Do you often find yourself doing more and more things in the group or because of group peer pressure that you would not have done on your own?
Yes___ No___
8. Does your group publicly humiliate or criticize members?
Yes___ No___
9. Does your group have a system of punishments and rewards for behavior?
Yes___ No___
10. Group paranoia: Does your group obsessively think other groups or people with different beliefs are out to get them?
Yes___ No___
11. Does the prospect of leaving your group seem scary, difficult?
Yes___ No___
12. Do you feel the need to leave in secret?
Yes___ No___
13. Have you been told something bad might happen if you leave?
Yes___ No___
14. Does your group/belief system think they have/are the only or highest truth, or have the solution for the world's problems?
Yes___ No___
15. Are your leader's ideas or belief system considered beyond reproach or sacred?
Yes___ No___
16. Do you follow a particular individual or belief system that requires unquestioning obedience and loyalty?
Yes___ No___
17. Do members of your group feel specially chosen, superior, exclusive, elite?
Yes___ No___
18. Do you feel the need to save or convert others to your belief system or ideology?
Yes___ No___
19. Is your group secretive to outsiders about its inner workings, teachings, activities or beliefs?
Yes___ No___
20. Does your group equate purity and goodness to being in your group, and impurity or evil to those outside your group?
Yes___ No___
21. Do you place your group's mission or agenda above your own goals and ideals? Do group interests come before your own interest
Yes___ No___
22. Do you find yourself thinking in a we-they, us-versus-them mind set?
Yes___ No___
23. Does your group/system have a clear outside enemy?
Yes___ No___
24. Do you see less and less of your family and friends who do not belong to your group or who do not subscribe to your group's belief system?
Yes___ No___
25. Does your group use frequent public testimonials, confessions, or sharings that reinforce the group's mission or agenda?
Yes___ No___
26. Is communication within, into and out of your group controlled or censored in any manner?
Yes___ No___
27. Does your group criticize, shun, abandon or demean individuals who leave the group?
Yes___ No___
28. Do members seek approval or get permission from group leader(s) for personal life choices?
Yes___ No___
29. Do you feel pressured to attend meetings, events, lectures, seminars? And do you feel guilty if you don't attend?
Yes___ No___
30. Do you feel pressured to give a portion of your income to the group, or spend money on courses, books or special projects?
Yes___ No___
31. Are the group's financial needs more important than your own economic well-being?
Yes___ No___
32. Does your group discriminate against anyone regarding race, gender, belief, or sexual orientation?
Yes___ No___
33. Does your group have a totalitarian structure: a strict, top-down centralized control?
Yes___ No___

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you wonder if you have been in a destructive group?
Do you...
...have difficulty forming new friendships and intimate relationships?
Yes___ No___
...have low self-esteem, poor self-image or loss of identity?
Yes___ No___
...have difficulty making simple decisions and choices?
Yes___ No___
...often feel depressed, anxious and nervous?
Yes___ No___
...feel isolated, lonely, guilty, cynical?
Yes___ No___
...feel like you are just now growing up, becoming a mature adult?
Yes___ No___
...have short-term memory difficulties?
Yes___ No___
...feel you have nothing to believe in?
Yes___ No___
...often feel anger and rage towards the group?
Yes___ No___
...have nightmares or unpleasant dreams?
Yes___ No___
...find it difficult or impossible to stop mental or other group ritualistic practices?
Yes___ No___
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This quiz has no scientifically predetermined number of 'yes' answers to indicate a destructive group. However, answering 'yes' to any of the above questions means you may need to examine your group and its influence in your life in those areas.
Source: John D. Goldhammer website

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:58:14 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Here are KEY QUESTIONS for Fence-Sitting Premies,
Message:
Isn't it incredible, how much work has gone into this site? Everytime I look again, there's more and more information and links, as well.

I sending this one to my sis.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:48:34 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: On topic: Even monkeys alert each other to danger
Message:
In the jungle - the one with lots of trees and vines - when a tiger or snake or some other predator/threat approaches a community of monkeys, the lookouts start to chatter to each other in a certain way that alerts the rest of the group to imminent danger. Then they all head for the canopy, throw stuff down at the source of danger and make loud noises to any other monkeys in the area so they don't wander in and get beaten or eaten. This is one of the attributes that makes primates 'smart' and helps them survive as a group.

As I think about how the Jagdeo thing and other abusive situations were dealt with, it seems to go against nature and how primates - even prairie dogs - look out for each other. It is very disconcerting to look back and know that the natural defenses of the group I was in were not functioning to the point of children being compromised. But the cash is secure and all the vehicles are purring like a cat....

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:41:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sandy
Subject: Animals 'looking out for one another'
Message:
Your post is anthropomorphic, Sandy. Rhesus monkeys may use distinct calls to identify their tribe to attack from different predators - each with a precise meaning - but animal communication is not the same thing as language, and it is a misreading of superficial similarities to human behaviour to read deliberate intention into such signalling.

Sure, social animals co-operate (by very definition). So do ants, but co-operation need be no more than an unconsciously evolved survival mechanism: it sometimes serves the creature's own survival needs (and those of its genes) to go in for a bit of 'reciprocal altruism'. However, when those survival needs are are even mildy threatened animal behaviour is very different - even with social animals. eg. a few years back anthropologists were somewhat alarmed to discover that male chimpanzees, having murdered a rival to gain a mate, will routinely murder the rival's offspring to free-up the mother's 'resources' to prioritise looking after his own kids. Nice, heh?

Yes, Jagdeo's behaviour may be sick and aberrant, even by animal standards, but primate cruelty can never be said to go 'against nature' ('red in tooth and claw' as Tennyson famously put it).

BTW: prairie dogs are rodents, not primates.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:23:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Animals 'looking out for one another'
Message:
Nige:

All the same, these noises are probably the origin of language, according to the 'symbolic interactionists': Mead, et al. The behavior is clearly purposeful in the case of monkeys, so whether it's 'conscious' depends on what you mean. I agree that it's naive to infer idealistic intent to such behavior. We make the same mistake with humans. We apparently thought the Mayans were a peaceful idealistic civilization until we figured out how to read their language. Turns out they were a civilization based on persistent periodic warefare, and even had a season of the year devoted to it. Peaceful they were not.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 14:26:14 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Scott T. Nigel
Subject: Animals 'looking out for one another'
Message:
Hi Scott and Nigel,

Did you check the Kropotkin link I posted to Sandy below? It has a very interesting section comparing the 'competive' vs. the 'cooperative' position.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, Nigel - are we supposed to look at some isolated cases of certain behaviours and say that we are more civilized (phew!), or that if animals behave like that naturally then we should allow ourselves to act on all our'instinctive'/reflexive behaviour without reflection, or that Jagdeo's behaviour isn't so bad when compared with Rhesus monkey's?

Here are the three principle consequences of competitions as outlined in the Kropotkin text:

.


'According to Kohn, there are three principle consequences of competition. First, it has a negative effect on productivity and excellence. This is due to increased anxiety, inefficiency (as compared to cooperative sharing of resources and knowledge), and the undermining of inner motivation. Competition shifts the focus to victory over others, and away from intrinsic motivators such as curiosity, interest, excellence, and social interaction. Studies show that cooperative behaviour, by contrast, consistantly predicts good performance--a finding which holds true under a wide range of subject variables. Interestingly, the positive benefits of cooperation become more significant as tasks become more complex, or where greater creativity and problem-solving ability is required.

'The second effect of competition is that it lowers self-esteem and hampers the development of sound, self-directed individuals. A strong sense of self is difficult to attain when self-evaluation is dependent on seeing how we measure up to others. On the other hand, those whose identity is formed in relation to how they contribute to group efforts generally possess greater self-confidence and higher self-esteem.

'Finally, competition undermines human relationships. Humans are social beings; we best express our humanness in interaction with others. By creating winners and losers, competition is destructive to human unity and prevents close social feeling. In the competitive mode, people work at cross purposes, or for personal gain. Some come out ahead, some behind; some win, some lose. It becomes impossible for people to move together, as is necessary for a harmonious human society.'

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 18:36:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Kropotkin was no crackpot'...
Message:
..was the title of an essay by Steven Jay Gould - laying out a case for a co-operative rather than competitive evolutionary model. (SJG basically agrees with Kropotkin). Interesting that Kropotkin studied wildlife in very harsh Russian climates where populations were sparse and the biggest hazards not from other creatures but from environmental hazards, ie. common threats to the tribal group. Darwin, by contrast, did much of his early research in the Galapogos Islands - teeming with life-forms all competing for limited resources, hence his emphasis on competion.

Either way, Kropotkin's position is compatible with Natural Selection - just a different angle based on evidence from a different environment.

(I think K may be a bit off-the-wall with his 'sense of self' stuff, but I reckon he's mostly sound ;)

My point to Sandy was basically not to interpret animal cooperation or communication as evidence for some kind of moral integrity, which is how I interpreted his post.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:13:53 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Animals 'looking out for one another'
Message:
Stonor:

Thanks for the post. I've heard libertarians and classical liberals concede all those points (James Buchanan, Bill Niskanen, F.A. Hayek and Don LaVoie, for instance). They hold that although competition *can* have negative consequences, the issue with regard to managing cooperative enterprise has to to with *knowledge* about how to distribute resources. In other words, no individual or group has sufficient knowledge of all the simultaneous conditions, consequences, or the real motivations of participants, to enable them to make intelligent and reliable policy decisions about, for instance, the appropriate price for an item, commodity or service. I find it very difficult to counter this argument. That said, the success of the US economy has largely to do with the quality of the decisions and policies adopted by Allen Greenspan. They have a hard time countering this argument, except to say that he's not making decisions about how to distribute resources, which he is. Pure 'anything' seems to cultivate its opposite.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:30:36 (GMT)
From: sandy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks for the info...
Message:
And I knew the thing about prairie dogs, they are little mammals, not primates...an oversight on my part. Interesting, what you said.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:42:12 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: So what's your excuse Sandy? No Peanuts? (nt)
Message:
hfdg
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:36:34 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Your meaning escapes me (nt)
Message:
asgr.dgn
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 13:00:11 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: FYI - 'Cooperative' Evolution link
Message:
You might find this article from Sumeria interesting - it's about cooperative vs. 'gladatorial' evolution: Kropotkin. Evolution is beginning to seem to be more about justifying capitalism vs. communism rather than real science. There are some articles about AIDS there too.

Anna

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:05:40 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yeah, something is disfunctional in M's tribe NT
Message:
NT
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