Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 14:09:05 (GMT)
From: Jun 03, 2001 To: Jun 08, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jim -:- My demand to Pia for a retraction -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:52:35 (GMT)
__ donner -:- My demand to Pia for a retraction -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:22:17 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Here is a link to it-aint-so.org -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:40:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Immediate links to EV sites have disappeared -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:50:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Immediate links to EV sites have disappeared -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- yes, I found that ditty from lil Pia most insultin -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:17:47 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hi Mike -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ hi jim -:- Hi Mike -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:32:14 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- I PROTEST MOST STRONGLY -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:24:57 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I'm with ya on that one, Jim -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:51:44 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- I totally agree with you -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:13:14 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- My demand to Pia for a retraction -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 23:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- Interesting point, Deborah -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 08:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Mr Mind! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:05:25 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The whole site is an emmotional outburst. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:19:14 (GMT)
__ __ Roberta Slack -:- PIA SAYS -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:29:40 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- My demand to Pia for a retraction -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:06:40 (GMT)
__ CD -:- demands a plenty -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- CD, can you set her straight re other errors? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:29:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- straight -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I did it, CD -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 10:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- response@it-aint-so.org -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:09:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- CD -- apples and oranges here -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh my gawd! CD as communications expert?????????? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:59:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Almost spilled wine on my keyboard...! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:19:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Almost spilled wine -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Uh, Chris, what I hope you are saying... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- The warning against 'personal insults' WAS funny! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Hi Katie H , I read them (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:40:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Bin, you're a doll (that's my highest compliment) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The warning against 'personal insults' WAS funny! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:19:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- That's what I thought - oh well...(nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- straight -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Oh, I dunno, CD -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:25:07 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks for the PR lesson, Chris -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:22:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- PR style -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:34:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, Chris? Where? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:38:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Where? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- So if someone used their website to publish lies.. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- So if someone used their website to publish lies.. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:26:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ughh whatever made u swim in that cesspit :) (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- ughh whatever made u swim in that cesspit :) (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:46:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Fair enough ...I guess (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:49:29 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Donner and Dettmers have grounds too -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh sure they do -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Will -:- Makes this forum even more addictive! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- What really gets me -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:09:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The march of the nobodies -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:38:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I think it's funny, actually -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:42:05 (GMT)

Sandy -:- FA: This place is totally rigged and that sucks -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:45:48 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Steve Mulley posted this, read it carefully.nt -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:46:15 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- FA: Give the Baby his Bottle .... -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 23:40:11 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Guess what Sandy -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Guess what FA -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:34:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Ahem, Sandy? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:28:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ rum [sylvia] -:- and YOU can say complete asshole to SANDY -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:23:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- and YOU can say complete asshole to SANDY -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:41:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'Ho hum' this, Jim. -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Ahem yourself, you freak -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:17:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tired of OT Bickering -:- Yo, Jim and Sandy: -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:34:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Sandy, you didn't answer Jim -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Yes I did -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- what the hell DID you mean, sandy? make it plain. -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Who died and made YOU my mommy? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:45:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Who died and made YOU my mommy? my mom died -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- My condolences about your mom -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:01:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is the only way Sandy knows how to argue -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- To Jim, the Master of the Ugly Comment -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:14:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- your fake enightenment is equally transparent -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- FYI -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 04:03:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's all beside the point -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:12:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- This is what you do with personal information. -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You forgot 'good looking' (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No you didn't -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:16:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Exactly! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Yes YOU DID JIM! nt -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 05:58:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's a simple enough question, isn't it? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:32:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ asco [silvia] -:- Shut the fack up JIM!!!! go to sleep or something -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:26:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is that you, Silvia? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Yes general, I'll try to remember why is important -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 05:45:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Yes, I added her name in -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 04:52:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sue me too, asshole -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:17:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- is that your rewording to explain yourself? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:30:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You talkin' ta me? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- YEAH, OM TAWKIN TA YOUSE! LISSEN, BUDDY-- -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:38:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Another new age defence? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- hey, i not only read english, i read french and -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Slow day at the office, jerkweed? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:16:44 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Yah. Booh. Fascist Pig-Dog. Sack the FA. (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:26:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Yah. Booh. Fascist Pig-Dog. Sack the FA. (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yesh, you pacifist fig FA mofo -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:29:48 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- More than a minor difference, Sandy -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:02:28 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Nigel -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Hey Sandy. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Anth, I INSIST you repost the darshan tale now!!!! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Here's the dirt Nigel. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:49:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Anth-you're on fire****Good stuff!******(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Oh Anth...you're hilarious (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC the Fat Fag -:- ...and Jimina is still not able to sit down -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- That's a touchy subject Pat. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:21:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC the Fat Fag -:- The pink outfit goes so well with my black leather -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:40:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is this any way to conduct a forum, gentlemen? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Is this any way to conduct a forum, gentlemen? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 09:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ~Silvia~ -:- JIM is a premie!!! NEWS! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 05:52:19 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- FA:delete all my posts.can't see/think/write -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:35:11 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- I say delete them all -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:19:03 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Whether you are in the mood or not, this is the -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Sheesh, Sandy -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What you have to learn, Sandy, is this -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- What I have to learn, Jim, is this -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:05:33 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- FA: This place is totally rigged and that sucks -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:00:03 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- It happens over and over with the same usual -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Aw, you're just pissed -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:45:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Besides that, this palce advertises as a FORUM -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Well guess what...again....Sandy -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Well guess what...again....FA -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:23:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Well guess what...again....Sandy -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 10:12:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, we KNOW how you'd run things, Mili -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:45:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- It was a GUESTBOOK, you psychopath -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What I'm talking about had zip to do with me -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Did I mention that you are a slimy creep? (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Is 'loser' spelled with two o's in Canada.... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It was a joke, fool (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:28:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Bullshit, Jim, Doodoo del Toro... -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:41:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Right over your head, I guess -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I put a lock on the button you push called 'liar! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- It's closed little clique that pretends to be open -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:14:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Sandy -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:08:03 (GMT)

Kelly -:- Elan Vital just phoned me! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:22:52 (GMT)
__ Suchabanana -:- guess they don't read da news,Toejamanandji.P+L(nt -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:26:14 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Prostrations at da smelly feet. nt. -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:29:49 (GMT)
__ kev -:- They are getting desperate. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:42:42 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Go Kelly. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:20:13 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- I was nearly interested!! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I was nearly interested!! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:06:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Simple...go in disguise Anth :)) (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:42:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS ...how about ANTHea ? (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:44:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Or 'Mistress Anthrax, Punishment/ Hate to order' -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:03:27 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Go gal! Give 'em hell! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Go gal! Give 'em hell! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:27:00 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Elan Vital just phoned me! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Elan Vital just phoned me! -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Kelly, you've gotta ask yourself... -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Just a question.. -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- It was ' f ' nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:18:18 (GMT)

jill -:- what's this Pia site everyone is talking about? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:03:10 (GMT)
__ G -:- Link to it-aint-so from enjoyinglife.org -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- An Idea -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:23:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Steve Q...howdy -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:58:27 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Best thing since Rawat's mustache-NT -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:51:37 (GMT)
__ clh -:- what's this Pia site everyone is talking about? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:12:45 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- what's this Pia site everyone is talking about? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:09:09 (GMT)

martha -:- if you can't hate your best friend, than who? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:59:39 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Go away......You're sickeningly brainwashed(nt) -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:54:43 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- And your point is..? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ martha -:- And your point is..? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:13:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- 'meditate and think..?!!' -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ Goldenballs -:- you will know when you eat one of my balls -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:31:16 (GMT)

Silvia -:- To Jim and Gerry, from innactive.Before leaving -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:10:21 (GMT)
__ BTW -:- Jim and Gerry, I read today -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:24:04 (GMT)

Scot Jamieson -:- My Sunday Times Post - to Michele D. and all -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:55:32 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Peace and bliss is NOT satguru -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ Scot J -:- Peace and bliss is NOT satguru -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I admire you for your bravery -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:42:54 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Trashers -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:13:53 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Well you learn something every day -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:46:43 (GMT)
__ __ Scot J -:- AAA meetings-as in, Alcoholics Anonymous. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:25:49 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Hey, Jim, was it toooo repugnant for you? OT -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Get a grip, Silvia -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SILVIA -:- This what I agree with of Sandy's post Jim -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:49:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Now that I've thought about it... -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ clh -:- reply to: Now that I've thought about it. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- clh, sorry to hear that (sorta ot) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- clh, sorry to hear that (sorta ot) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- I agree with you, Katie. NT -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:23:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- reply to: Now that I've thought about it. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:56:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- you are pretty clear, gerry, from what I just -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:49:09 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Thanks, Scot! -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:31:19 (GMT)
__ silvia -:- But Scott, Brian used the space to post it bellow -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:15:04 (GMT)
__ Scot J -:- Post -syncronicity is a pain, sometimes! NT -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:59:55 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Scot, could you e-mail me pls (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Scot J--very moving and poetic, thanks, (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:12:43 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Here's what I wrote to Pia -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:48:28 (GMT)
__ G -:- 'William Strait, staff' -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Does anyone know William Strait? -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:39:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Does anyone know William Strait? -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:40:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- William, strait staff -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:29:35 (GMT)

Brian -:- New Journey online -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:34:40 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- 'Shadowy and fearful soul disaster' -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:39:47 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Thanks, Brian, and Scot Jamieson -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:09:47 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- Know that -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:44:39 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Welcome back Silvia. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:22:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ ~Silvia~ -:- hahahahaaha, I'm going to sleep in few minutes -:- Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 06:17:29 (GMT)

Silvia -:- I am out of here for a while -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:24:56 (GMT)
__ TO CQ -:- You'll here from me soon (kind of OT-NOT!) -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- lucky to have caught your post - I've been away(OT -:- Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:14:21 (GMT)
__ __ TYPO -:- here=hear nt -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:34:17 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- So Much Quantity Here -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 13:53:04 (GMT)
__ kev -:- So Much Quantity Here -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ ~silvia~ the forum angel -:- papa's links are not ANYMORE at Pia's site? -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ kev -:- Sorry Silvia I made a mistake. -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:27:54 (GMT)
__ ~silvia~ the forum angel -:- is the FIRE within-We love truth -:- Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:14:02 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:52:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My demand to Pia for a retraction
Message:
Here's what I just sent Pia regarding her 'About the Critics' section on her web site, 'Say it ain't so, Maharaji!':

Dear Pia:

Your following article, under the heading 'About the Critics' is a wonderful example of a classic, paranoid response of a cult member to information which threatens his or her beliefs. No wonder you aren't interested in 'debating' these various points because, as you yourself probably know, your argument's worthless. There are such things as 'rogue functionaries' in organizations like DLM or EV, I guess. Apparently, Maharaji's own brother, Satpal, was just that in the final days before the family split. However, you would be hard-pressed to find any evidence at all that anyone else, before or after, ever flouted Maharaji's command and kept their positions regardless. It's an interesting theory, I guess. Unfortunately, there's not a single fact to support it.

But I have an even more pointed complaint than that. Perhaps with some residual memory of the Chinese Cultural Revolution urging you on, you have chosen your own 'Gang of Four' to villify accordingly. These four, you say, have some secret, dark agenda they're advancing. You never say just what that agenda might be, other than fulfilling their own 'dark visions'. Not much of a conspiracy theory by any standard, I'm afraid.

My immediate complaint, however, is more specific. You have included me amongst your Gang of Four, all of whom you say had 'positions of major responsibility in the organization.' You then opine that we four are criticizing Maharaji so as to distance ourselves from our own bad acts undertaken in those positions.

This is to advise you that I, for one, never had any such position in either DLM or EV. I received Knowledge in April, 1974 at the age of 19. Weeks before Millenium '73 I was 'asked' to move into the Vancouver ashram. I did so and continued to live in various Canadian ashrams until Hans Jayanti in Toronto, later that year. At that point I moved out of the ashram only to return sometime the next spring. I was transferred a number of times over the next six or seven years and ultimately moved out again in the spring of '81. Other than bringing home a paycheck from menial jobs 'out in the world', the only positions of interest I ever had were managing publications for western Canada and being the treasurer of the Calgary community for a year or so. The first position consisted of receiving DLM propganda and dissemintating it every week or so to the three or four other centers in western Canada then. The latter meant doing the books for a medium-size cult community. Once, in Ottawa, I was the ashram 'housefather' but lost that service after I caught the Community Co-ordinator and Public Relations Officer fooling around.

Beyond that, I did occasional pick-up WPC security duty, nothing special. I did have some continuing service at one point. I was one of the Premie Assistance on-site co-ordinators at the two Kissimee festivals. I was in charge of the main booth where freaked out premies, like Tim Gallwey I recall, dropped in for coffee through the middle of the night.

Once I was actually considered for accounting service at IHQ but was ultimately passed-on. The feedback I got then was that I had too big a mouth, essentially. Couldn't be trusted to be a tight-lipped company man, I guess.

So, Pia, your theory, at least regarding me, is a total bust. Not to mention insulting and defamatory. I hereby demand that you change your page immediately AND publish an apology or i will indeed take legal action against you. I will start by contacting your ISP and advise them accordingly. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. I'm a lawyer by trade and will indeed follow through if you fail to deal with this matter properly. I've already had one premie's internet service cancelled for unfounded, defamatory comments. You're next unless you do something about this without delay.

Beyond that, Pia, do you notice something here? See what's happening? You've made certain allegations based on certain assumptions you have about me. I've responded directly and we can now talk about this. It's called 'communication'. No one's perfect and I'm giving you the full benefit of the doubt that, mistaken as you are, you only wrote what you did in good faith. You were wrong but you didn't know it. Right?

Why won't you open your site to real dialogue then? Just because Maharaji refuses to talk with his critics doesn't mean that you shouldn't either, does it? If you want your stie to have any persuasive power at all, you're going to have to drop your guard and actually talk with us. Think about it.

In the meantime, though, you're going to have to come up with another theory as to why I, at least, am so critical of Maharaji. Maybe you'd like to argue that it's exactly because I wasn't a bigshot PAM ('Person Around Maharaji') that I'm so embittered. I only suggest that as a possibility; feel free to experiment.

However, I'm serious about this. Anything you publish about me that is not accurate and which I find unfairly defamatory will prompt immediate action. This is the only warning you'll receive. Conduct yourself accordingly.

For reference, here's your erroneous commentary:

The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.

All of these now claim that they were unwittingly working for a cult while in fact they were instrumental in forming and implementing the very organizational policies and practices they are now criticizing.

We view their desire to spread rumors and false allegations against Maharaji and Elan Vital at best as a blatant avoidance of personal responsibility for their former actions and choices.

At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers. If there was a cult in those days, it existed in the minds of people like this fueled by an ambition to make Maharaji and his work conform to their own private visions.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:22:17 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My demand to Pia for a retraction
Message:
hi ya'll just got back from wonderful trip to russia, cruised the volga river and waterways from st. petersburg to moscow...more later on that perhaps...what is all this shit anyways...hasn't this pia read my stuff, taking responsibility and spouting re: that very same topic...what did i miss and who is this pia and her/his site?/
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:40:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: fearless leader
Subject: Here is a link to it-aint-so.org
Message:
Oh member of the evil gang of four, here is a link:

. it-aint-so.org

.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:50:10 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Immediate links to EV sites have disappeared
Message:
When this site first appeared, a box appeared with a way to immediately access EV and Captain Rawat's sites. It no longer appears. I wonder why?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 12:09:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Immediate links to EV sites have disappeared
Message:
happened few days ago. I guess EV has pushed for this not to happen. The fact that this pop-up window appears when the site opens gives the impression that the pop-up is an add. Meaning:EV could be liable for legel action for supporting Pia's site. Seeing that our leader Jim is pissed off, not mentioning J-M and Donner and probably Dettmer, I think someone pulled the plug. Pia will most likely end up on her own, with the site dissappearing into absecurity like enjoying life. If I was Jim and the rest, I will not hesistate to sue this chick and ask for official explaination from EV.

and may Alah be my witness.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:17:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: yes, I found that ditty from lil Pia most insultin
Message:
If I were you and Dettmers, I would be so angry at that. The cult is blaming YOU??? for not taking responsibility? I have read very earnest honest things from both of you regretting your actions while in the cult, and they were not blaming in the least. Rawat, on the other hand has never taken one iota of responsibility, for anything.

This makes me sick. He is the only one who has or had any real power in the cult. He can change any thing on a whim. He can fire anyone. The cult members have this bizarre thing going on in which he is somehow the poor victim of PAMs...what???? To this day he seems to hide behind the people around him who are there to absorb blame and responsibilty for all that goes wrong. GRRRR......

How is it that not a leaf moves without his grave ( yep then they would move) grace and at the same time he is the hapless victim of all these evil sycophants?

Pia...it is so.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:15:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hi Mike
Message:
Have a nice trip? Russia? Interesting. You like it? What's it like?

Have you seen Pia's site yet? It's some crazy shit, you should check it out. You're in a Gang of Four which is kind of strange for all sorts of reasons.

The main thing there, though, is the stuff she's got from Combat, the French magazine JM got to do a large expose on Maharaji. All hell broke loose after that. JM got tons of press, EV started freaking out, the French authorities jacked Maharaji up when he landed in Versailles. It's Springtime in Paris (for another few days, I guess). May a thousand flowers bloom.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:32:14 (GMT)
From: hi jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Mike
Message:
ya, russia is amazing..lots to tell, will pass my report to you when finished..river boat from st. petersberg to moscow...very interesting to say the least. just went to the site. in a strange way...her mention of dettmers, JM and I will probably backfire on her...folks in the cult are very sensitive to the heiarchy...up front seating and all that stuff as a symtom for example. i noticed there is nothing in her site from anyone just come on? or no one interesting in taking up her call to defend the master? later pal
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:24:57 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pia
Subject: I PROTEST MOST STRONGLY
Message:
Pia

My lawyers are at work right now working overtime on my behalf.

I cannot believe that you would put out on a global web site that I am LED by the likes of Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner,Jim Heller and Jean Michel khan.

Frankly, I've nevr been so INSULTED in my entire life.

For you to think I would sink so low as be led by such a motely crew of misfits is LIBEL !!!!!!

My lawyers will be making their first formal approch in the near future.

Cheers

Dermot

PS Out of court settlements are always my preferred option especially if it means I make loads of lovely DOSH. What figure do you think you'd start at????

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:51:44 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm with ya on that one, Jim
Message:
Has anyone informed the Mikes about this site and the allegations? Perhaps they'd like to send her a message of their own.

Instead of drowning in the river of Maya, these folks are drowning in a river of congnitive dissonance. Send out the men in white coats!!!!

--f

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:13:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I totally agree with you
Message:
Jim, you were absolutely correct to write Pia and make the retraction demand, and threaten legal action if she did not correct it. And you now know, courtesy of CD, that she has acknowledged his email pointing out that she's wrong to include you as a cult mover and shaker, and is looking into it. Best to keep a daily eye on the site to see if and when she changes it.

Who really is behind her site? We now know that enjoyinglife.org has a link to it. The tone of the entire site suggests that EV has sanctioned it.

Even though it is false, being included in the Gang of Four (your description) is actually an honor. All those phone calls to Malibu and your articulate posts must be annoying Captain Rawat and the PAMs to the extreme, earning you this special, but undeserved, place in the Premie Hall of Infamy.

This website is horribly misguided. When they make mistakes, there will be repercussions. This site comes from England, where the defamation laws are much more strict than the US. And, the loser (or looser, in premiespeak) pays the winner's court costs.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 23:38:08 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My demand to Pia for a retraction
Message:
Jim,

Why am I confused? Of Course you should be firing off a retraction Warning or Take Action Stance. This is some very small potatoes compared to what we are doing here. The pain, confusion, disorientation and psychological carthasis that I am currently undergoing prescribes your reaction. Why kind of a lawyer would you be if you did not use your professional sensibilities? And who the fuck is this CD? We should let his posts go UNANSWERED. There is no reason that they should contaminate these pages. It took me almost 30 minutes to read through this Propagandized Thread. Let's go back to Pia's Pornolized Propaganda Page. That was so much fun, Jim. I laughed so hard I was surprised Security didn't come up to investigate.

Let's not give them so much power, it was so much fun to laugh with each other. This page is about US not them. They have their own Truth page. But then Why do they call it, 'It aint so'.
Someone should call in a deprogrammed marketing consultant but I enjoy watching them self-destruct. It gives me more energy to heal!

Cheers, Thanks for your recent hospitality.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 08:23:00 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Interesting point, Deborah
Message:
''But then Why do they call it, 'It aint so'.''

Maybe this is a subconscious plea to You Know Who to come out personally and refute the multitude of charges against him.

Like the famous quote from the little boy to Shoeless Joe Jackson, ''Say, it ain't so, Joe. Say it ain't so.'' (this is from the 1919 Chicago Blacksox scandal for you non-baseball historians).

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:05:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Mr Mind!
Message:
Yes, the Blacksox baseball scandal. That's EXACTLY what I thought when I first heard the name of Pia's website.

Say it aint so, Mr Rawat. Unfortunately, as was the case in 1919, it is INDEED so...

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:19:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The whole site is an emmotional outburst.
Message:
Hi Jim,

Pia's whole site is a load of emmotional smoke, without any content, not to mention the facts she's got wrong.

First, she has a dilema, like most premies. They are scared to read the Ex-premie sites and the forum, so they don't really know what's going on. One of my old premie friends stopped communicating with me after I published my journey, and then I found out she hadn't even read it.

The second thing is, there is no substance whatsoever to her argument. She shouts, 'Lies. Hate.', but doesn't say what the lies and hate are.

It's strange, because Pia is an intelligent, articulate woman, yet she can't see what a load of mindless, cult-bollocks she's produced.

This is one of my big 'drips', when intelligent people start talking like idiots.

Pia is armed with one of those charms made from feathers and beads, that medecine men give soldiers carrying spears, guaranteed to protect them against bullets.

The charm is called 'Guru Maharaji's Grace'.

It's a kinda magic.

Take it easy,

Anth, old friend of Pia.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:29:40 (GMT)
From: Roberta Slack
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PIA SAYS
Message:
I have known Maharaji most of my life. I love and respect him, and I will no longer watch in silence while people publicly ridicule and threaten both him and others who support his work.

Threats? Really? I say they know he is gone and cannot contemplate the idea of live without his grace as you said makes them desperate. Can you imagine a life without feet where to cry over? Sniff...Premies are willing to lie for ther master, dogs.. sleeping that is.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz maharaji, you are a VERY bad person.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:06:40 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: My demand to Pia for a retraction
Message:
Jim:

Nice to have you back. Hope you had a good rest. I feel like I need one as I've been reading every message posted here for eight months and the last few weeks have been very busy.

Incredible how low these supporters of maharaji will go to defend their master.

At worst, it is the cruel revenge of frustrated ex-lovers. If there was a cult in those days, it existed in the minds of people like this fueled by an ambition to make Maharaji and his work conform to their own private visions.

How deluded can a person get without being hospitalized for mental illness? I think this would make a good scientific study.

All The Best To You And Laurie

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:16:21 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: demands a plenty
Message:
I sent a message to Pia yesterday stating that the information about you being a former EV mucky muck was not true.
I got a response indicating the info she posted would be checked.
And, no, I am not afiliated with Pia's site.
I read the same thing and knew it was incorrect.

Now what is all your ranting about getting Pia's ISP to cut off service and such?
You discredit your cause with your own quick mean spirited reactions and veiled threats such as: 'This is the only warning you'll receive'.

Jim, you have made so many defamatory statements over the past years that it is truely amazing you would start throwing stones so early in the morning from your glass house.

CD

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:29:56 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, can you set her straight re other errors?
Message:
You've been hanging around here since Forum I, and you know what goes on here - the article about the 'four critics' is untrue.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:49:26 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: straight
Message:
>You've been hanging around here since Forum I, and you know what goes on here

That is a BIG topic - g! A lot goes on!

I can't imagine getting imbroiled trying to iron out the differences between these 2 sites (opposing forces). That would be something.

If this site has credibility then the people who post here only need to maintain that credibility by the quality of the posts.
Same thing with Pia's site.

Do I think both sites will end up with misinformation mixed in with facts? YES

You could certainly put together a well written statement regarding Pia's critics page expressing your viewpoint. Keep it short, stick to information that can be verified and don't add any personal insults.
Communication is possible.

CD

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 10:46:26 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: I did it, CD
Message:
I wrote a letter and sent it (I just 'submitted it; couldn't find an e-mail address - is there one?) I think it would meet your standards :).

I hope this will help bring about some communication.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 13:09:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: response@it-aint-so.org
Message:
The email address is response@it-aint-so.org, it is contained in the HTML code for that page.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:34:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD -- apples and oranges here
Message:
You said:
Do I think both sites will end up with misinformation mixed in with facts? YES

The key question is, where will the misinformation be presented? It is one thing to allow almost anyone to post almost anything they want on a Forum. It is another thing entirely to have the misinformation be in the key, or main portions, of a site, such as a statement of purpose or an introduction.

I do not believe that EPO has any such misinformation in the main portions of its site, especially such grossly untrue information as Pia has on hers.

And to your credit, that's why you told Pia she'd better get her facts straight, and I thank you for that.

Best wishes, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:59:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Oh my gawd! CD as communications expert??????????
Message:
This is the weirdest thing I've seen in a long time. Chris Dickey, the man who refuses to discuss anything in a straightforward manner (it's those damn words, don't you know), tutoring Katie in the art of effective communication.

Chris, I admit that Katie's got a few things yet to learn. That's what we have Sandy on board for. But you, Chris? Please!

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:19:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Almost spilled wine on my keyboard...!
Message:
At this: Chris, I admit that Katie's got a few things yet to learn. That's what we have Sandy on board for. But you, Chris? Please!

Good to have you back ;)

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:38:51 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Almost spilled wine
Message:
Shucks, my well thought out chain of events fouled up at the last domino.
If you stub your toe later today that will be OK.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:40:41 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Uh, Chris, what I hope you are saying...
Message:
...is that you didn't need warn me about not using personal insults in e-mail!

Believe me, I know how to be diplomatic. Plus I have no axe to grind with premies in general - I WAS one.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:09:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The warning against 'personal insults' WAS funny!
Message:
As IF...

Sheesh, does anyone even READ my posts?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:40:01 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Hi Katie H , I read them (nt)
Message:
l
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:37:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bin, you're a doll (that's my highest compliment)
Message:
I was depressed about this and some other things, and your post made me feel a lot better. Thanks so much.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:19:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: The warning against 'personal insults' WAS funny!
Message:
Sheesh, does anyone even READ my posts?

Robyn?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:33:27 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's what I thought - oh well...(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:57:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: straight
Message:
Hey Chris -
First of all, and one huge misconception that a lot of people have (I hope you already know this): the forum here is NOT same the site. Just about anyone can post just about anything on the forum - as you well know. Lots of stuff on the forum is speculative, or rumors, etc. - usually someone will point this out, but not always. We'd be happy to examine supposedly erroneous information on the site itself - should ANYONE care to point them out to us. I have said this a lot, and no premies have responded, although a couple of EX-premies have pointed out errors :).

Yeah, I should probably write to Pia. And Chris, you don't know me very well if you think I would add personal insults! (Come on!) Pia sounds like a very angry person, not sure if she would care to communicate with me, though.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:25:07 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Oh, I dunno, CD
Message:
Just 'cos she's got a nasty disease doesn't mean she should be allowed to spread it.

What's 'mean-spirited' about standing up to a deluded Cult propagandist trying to spread her insanity?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:22:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Thanks for the PR lesson, Chris
Message:
You're right. That was a little hasty of me. Do you think that if perhaps I apologize Pia will stop saying bad things about me? By the way, you must be making tons of money these days. How many classic axes have you bought recently? Eight?

Why not set aside some of that money for some counselling?

Just a thought.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:34:55 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: PR style
Message:
>You're right. That was a little hasty of me. Do you think that if perhaps I apologize Pia will stop saying bad things about me?

You certainly have the right to state your factual case in matters related to things written about you on the Internet.
The style and tone of your PR approach expresses your character on the Internet.

>Why not set aside some of that money for some counselling?

Nah, I don't think so.
But I could use some singing lessons and there is always the dentist waiting and worse.

CD

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:38:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Really, Chris? Where?
Message:
You certainly have the right to state your factual case in matters related to things written about you on the Internet.

Where can I state my case, Chris? Surely not in the feedback section on Pia's site, right? That's cult property -- closed shop.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:59:26 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Where?
Message:
>Where can I state my case

Certainly, you can state your case right here.
And you do so often with well written and clever postings.
Apparently people who are interested in the ex vi Pia debate read this site.
Maintain a distinguished character when dealing with the important stuff.

Threats to write tattletale notes to Pia's ISP (because you are a lawyer) gives you the Internet persona of a low class snitch.

CD

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:06:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: So if someone used their website to publish lies..
Message:
..about you Chris, wouldn't you also request they remove them and apologise?

And if they failed to do so, then what?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:26:13 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: So if someone used their website to publish lies..
Message:
>And if they failed to do so, then what?

Sure, I would state my objections and try to communicate first.
Then other measures might be required.
Certainly also depends on exactly what is posted.
Some things just aren't worth it.
Experience with this site has taught me that.

Are you thinking of putting up a web site. Be nice. Ha.

Cheers,
CD
swam across the Ganges in 72

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:36:00 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: ughh whatever made u swim in that cesspit :) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:46:00 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ughh whatever made u swim in that cesspit :) (nt)
Message:
I was young, from California and it was a small challenge to swim to the other shore.
I'm glad I did it.
Hey, if I can survive the Ganges ...

CD

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:49:29 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Fair enough ...I guess (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:59:11 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Donner and Dettmers have grounds too
Message:
Should they choose to pursue it. By NO stretch of the imagination can either of them be said to have 'led' ANYTHING on this site. Both of them have just started posting on the forum within the last year - and their posts have been put onto the site. That's it.

Guess this leaves J-M as the fall guy, since Brian and me are apparently insignificant because we were never responsible for ANYTHING in DLM/EV. Makes you see how premies still revere the DLM/EV power structure - and consider people who were involved in it to be 'more important'.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:07:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Oh sure they do
Message:
I just thought it best to give Pia one discrete problem to deal with first. Mine's a very, very black and white error on her part. She's stuck and she knows it. By the way, if she only takes my name out of it but doesn't publish a retraction, I will indeed complain to her ISP.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:04:25 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Makes this forum even more addictive!
Message:
You know threads and posts like these make this forum even more addictive than it already is. Kick her ass Jim, and be sure to keep us informed. This place is better than TV or the movies. Am now lurking here more for entertainment than anything else.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:09:33 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What really gets me
Message:
Is that they had to give you a retroactive promotion because they couldn't believe that a relative nobody could rock Maharaji's world! Like I said, the hierarchy (ex-rated/PAMS/whatever) still exists.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:38:35 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: The march of the nobodies
Message:
Just a few names come to mind:

The anon vision guy, David Sterling, Jim Heller, Brian Something, Katie H, Anon, Joe W, Bill B, Mr Ex - all pretty much destroyed the myth that Maharaji had perpetrated for so long.

Others came later but in a very real sense this has been the march of the nobodies. ('Nobodies' not meant in a derogatory sense, of course)

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:42:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I think it's funny, actually
Message:
We make jokes about it sometimes (as in 'Who ARE these people??'). And don't forget Roger!

Take care, Sir D - you've done a LOT. BTW, I remember your first posts on Usenet a long time ago!

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:45:48 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FA: This place is totally rigged and that sucks
Message:
FA:

You allowed Jim to trash me and then you deleted my thread where I was repsonding. That sucks. Whoever did it sucks. I don't trust the management here either. You go rewrite your history too, and then criticize EV for doing the same thing. Hypocrites.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:46:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Steve Mulley posted this, read it carefully.nt
Message:
Date:
Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 06:40:28
From:
Steve Mulley
Email:
mulley@oninet.pt
To:
Everyone
Subject:
Life shaping beliefs from the East
Message:

Hi everyone,

I've been examining my changing belief patterns since the time I exited the cult. I don't
entirely hold Mahaha responsible for all my spiritual conceptions. He in fact just
reinforced much of the philosophy of the Eastern based books I'd read and the acid
and mushroom experiences I've had.

THE WORLD is an illusion, tainted with negative mind energy. There is beauty to be
found in the world but only through higher consciousness and awareness. One must
remain detached from THE WORLD. THIS WORLD is everything , absolutely
everything visible outside of the inner truth . THE MIND is a negative force which
causes attachment to THE WORLD. Through spiritual ignorance we fall into THE
WORLD.My thoughts are attached to the world and reinforce the illusion- therefore I
should ignore most of my thoughts and only give creedance to those thoughts which
are directed towards God , self realisation, devotion.

CHIT -CHAT (or normal social interaction of a light nature) is a distraction from
TRUTH and leads to a loss of centredness , definitely not recommended.

Having to work and earn my living is a distraction from the TRUTH. Maha suggested
that the reason to work is to go to programs and support his work. College , books
are a waste of time as for the TRUE KNOWLEDGE you don't need to go to college.

THE WORLD I live in hence becomes inimical to me. Division is created. There is of
course something called the spiritual world or Maha's world which is totally different
and full of Light and Love.

The people in THIS WORLD are mostly lost in falsehood and are secretly suffering
from not knowing REALITY , even if they appear to be content and happy they're not
really ( how can they be when they're in ignorance of TRUTH) They are best avoided
as they tend to be polluting for the seeker of enlightenment.I should be in the WORLD
but not of it, aloof and detached.Oh yes the poor fools are in darkness having no idea
where true contentment lies. They are obsessed with transitory trivia, like careers ,
making money, family, cars and other toys. TUT TUT.

True love can only be for god and GURU. All other love is conditional , only ONE
LOVE is pure and unconditional - the rest transitory and futile.

Nature is to be given some credence but only those parts of it which are good - blue
ocean, blue sky, flowers , lakes in summer,birds, sunsets etc........this good stuff
enables us to be grateful to the creator........Humans, cockroaches ,mosquitos, ticks ,
hurricanes and sewer rats ..well they are not given a mention except as something
abhorrent..maybe they're part of the dark side ?

Parents are usually lost souls who will attempt to dissuade me from seeking TRUTH
and lead me into those boring worldly concerns like careers, pension plans and
providing grandchildren for them to coo over and spoil rotten.They are to be despised
and avoided except when you need a loan.

Children are a major distraction for a true seeker . They demand too much attention
and energy thus depriving the seeker of meditation time.They also are expensive and
divert resources away from the planetary mission, much harder to afford to go to
programs with them around.

THE TRUTH is virtually impossible for an ordinary person to attain , therefore one
must find an enlightened teacher who will guide you through the illusion (MAYA) to
the eternal goal (whatever the fuck that is)THe teacher/master / guru is the most
important person in my life NUMERO UNO. Above, way above family friends ,kids,
relationships etc..THE MASTER can lead me from the unreal to the real from
darkness to light blah blah.

Is it surprising that I spent much of my life broke and living in below standard housing?
I found motivation to achieve financial security impossible. I rejected my parents true
love for me ; and my children were a nuisance when they were young. I couldn't
participate in an ordinary conversation .... Had a lack of self esteem masked by an air
of spiritual superiority.

I found little to enjoy in life , I was a stranger in a strange land....couldn't commit to a
relationship because I might get lost in it...I had guilt about enjoying sex, it was a lower
pleasure etc etc.. Oh boy !!!

Did I find enlightenment ? Don't think so . Become a loving person ? Nope. Did I get
high on occasion ? Yes , definitely but so what. Do I know that there's a God for sure
? NO. Am I more fulfilled and happy than others who didn't have a guru ? NO

Now I am freeing myself from all that crap . I feel more real , more empowered , more
tolerant , I love my family and appreciate my friends, Money is important and flows
better . It was my fear and trepidation that kept me there in those beliefs.

Life is better now , more interesting and I find satisfaction in things I thought were
boring . I'm in touch with my heart more.. yes more premies ! I feel more intensely .
My brain is sharper.. I love thinking.

Someone who never got nollij said to me once that they'd been in their mind their
whole life and highly recommended it !!!

I'm no longer a braindead sucker in a cult..

BUT IT'S BEEN ONE HELL OF A MAJOR DEPROGRAMMING and painful at
times. It seems to get easier... time heals

Sorry it's been such a long post,

~STEVE MULLEY

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 23:40:11 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: FA: Give the Baby his Bottle ....
Message:
And tell him to go to Hell. Oh He's already there! Ne-ver-minddd
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:20:30 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Guess what Sandy
Message:
This thread is destined to join it's pals in the trash can.

But the reasons for it are not as you have stated, they are purely pragmatic: the alloted memory space for the forum can only handle a certain amount (1600 posts, Active & Inactive) before it locks itself and waits for an FA to come archive and generally clean up.

With the volume of posts we are having these days, there have been several occasions (and a proportional number of complaints!) when the forum has been locked. In order to minimize the downtime, we occasionally go in and delete as many OT and irrelevant threads as we can find, to make room for new posts.

The fact that your threads suffer this fate more often than you would like should tell you something about their content, so why not address that before you start making churlish accusations of hypocrisy?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:34:04 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Guess what FA
Message:
Why didn't you delete Jim's interpretation and continued ongoing hassle with me about death and compassion? He was clearly attacking, twisting words and meanings and continuing to play the same old game. Why do you cowtow to him?

I seriously question your value judgement of what is and is not substantial posting, and what deserves to be deleted before something else. In my opinion, you are clearly biased, and that's OK, you have that right. Only that makes it something else, not a Forum.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:28:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Ahem, Sandy?
Message:
He was clearly attacking, twisting words and meanings and continuing to play the same old game.

In a thread below I've asked you several times now to back this up. How did I twist your words? How did I take them out of context?

Again, this is what you said:

'As for Pia and her cancer, she made outlive us all here, nobody knows....we all have a terminal condition called mortality.
And in the Gita it says that the true devotee laments for neither the living nor the dead.'

For the nth time now, how did I twist or distort this?

Face it, Sandy, these are YOUR words and you just don't know what to do about it. So, as you'll do from time to time, you blame me for challenging you. Come on, you can do better than that, can't you? Admit that you actually think just what you said here. Sure, it makes you look like a complete asshole but at least you'd be an honest one. Gotta start somewhere, huh?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:23:41 (GMT)
From: rum [sylvia]
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and YOU can say complete asshole to SANDY
Message:
brandy anybody? lets all get drunk and settle the differences... easier and laughing. This is like a bar at times.

You go toooo far many times and yes, I, the SLOW one is starting to see your patterns too. You write well but IMO and that of others, you enjoy TOOOOOOOO much the fights. You make them, but for what? To acusse others because they don't think like you? What happended Jim? What is going on? What is good for one it should be for all. I wont come here and see what you do and shut up anymore. I just put my glasses on. Too often you are uncapable to back off without insulting somebody. And YES you twist other's words.

Get down the horse cowboy, that is what you look like. J.Wayne would have been pleased to be your acquantaince... I'll doubt it. You would have been dead! But this is a forum and it gets rotten when you are around, you go, and go, and go and cannot stop.

You NEVER liked Sandy and even that you have left the cult loooooong a go you gave no importance to the fact that Sandy just left, and he is dealing with it right now (I don't mean to offend you Sandy but I know well how heavy our thoughts get leaving the cult)and you have no concern, or compassion at times and I don't like it. I said it.

I can hear you saying whatever, that's okay. You can laugh, mock, all. Free speech. Were you paid by Rawat to make this site a hostile one? No, just a joke...I'm sure 'they' love it! You have to go there, to sandy, where Sandy is not talking to you...yea, yea, yea, you can do like you like, I do it too (I insult ignorance and the cult) but Jimmy, is there a heart in you or not? You don't have to believe you have one, maybe you are ALL brain, who knows. Lately, I can believe in things that 10 years a go I would have never dreamed, maharaji is a fake lord, oh my, but you broke into the recent exes forum, (wasn't?) because you were dying to know what we were talking about. Double standards Jim, yes. You can argue and well. You call others hipocrats and you are at times one yourself. To point the finger you better be clean because if not what happens when you call other an asshole, that is what you are yourself. yea, yea, yea, I'm one too, again, I left not too long a go, there is hope for me, I know. Do some of us have a tiara or crown? No. but darling, what in the hell are we doing here? You can't let even ONE slide...you want them all, you are so unfair. I used to like you a lot and I do not like you less because of what you accusse ME of, no, I don't have to prove anyone NOTHING today. I don't want to go taht low. I was in hell not long a go, and we're not friends or anything, so, why should I say, go ahead. I say stop becasue you get vicious and even that you may disagree, this slow one here, I saw it too. LET SANDY ALONE! Go, talk, you have the hand, but darling, I lost respect. :(

I'm confused and nobody to talk with....hmmm...Jimmy, slow down and read some 'New Age' books so you learn to channel your energy, is all over the place.

Your tone of voice here says not even a vacation can make you change...your ways.

Silvia Sommer

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:41:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: rum
Subject: and YOU can say complete asshole to SANDY
Message:
Silvia,

Why do you have such a hard time simply putting your name in the 'from' box?

Okay, listen, you've been pretty weird about this. First you say something about Pia getting cancer because she's a premie. I try to talk with you about that -- and, Silvia, it's a legitimate thing to talk about! -- and you ignore me for a while. Then you finally reply once the thread's gone inactive but ask me to not keep the conversation going. So I don't. Then you post some other message blaming me for not answering you!

Meanwhile, Sandy's joined in. He, too, says some weird shit, like (oh, if I paraphrase he'll really have something to hang his hat on in terms of me 'twisting' his words or 'taking them out of context', so I better not. Naw, fuck it. I will.) -- he says something to the effect of 'ho hum, who cares if someone has terminal cancer. We're all gonna die anyway. In that respect, we ALL have a terminal disease'

Silvia, I find that an extremely ugly thing to say. Don't you?

But then he adds something even worse. He quotes the Gita, of all things, for the 'moral principle' that one shouldn't bother mourning the dead in any event.

So, yeah, I think this is about as ugly as new age bullshit gets. If you don't, join Sandy. Thankfully, most of us here see how bad that is.

But Sandy can't fight fair. He can't squarely deal with his words or beliefs. Thus he lies, accusing me of distorting his words. That, then, becomes the issue.

Leave it? I did with you, Silvia. But if you think I'm sorry for challenging him, forget it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:02:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Ho hum' this, Jim.
Message:
'-- he says something to the effect of 'ho hum, who cares if someone has terminal cancer. We're all gonna die anyway. In that respect, we ALL have a terminal disease' -Jim about Sandy

That 'ho hum' attitude is from YOU not me, and it is the essence of how you twisted the meaning of what I said in this whole matter. YOU are the 'ho-hum' guy who can't get worked up over someone's problems unless you know them personally, not me. As for the Gita quote, I agree that one should not lament for the living nor the dead. But I never said that one should not be empathetic or compassionate to fellow human beings in crisis, as the New Testament advises.

Once again, I urge you to go deep within yourself and find out why you are so ornery and get rid of that thorn that is hurting you so much that you strike out all the time, not just at me but at anyone who is in your way in a dialog. I see a funny, smart, strong, determined, persistent, idealistic but practical guy in you. But I also see and experience alot of pain and hurting from you too. I wish you all the best in your personal growth.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:17:33 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ahem yourself, you freak
Message:
This is the attempted choke hold of your twisted trip...

You barge in with all caps and bold, cop alot of heads with that little hat trick, then you tabloidize whatever you choose to make your cause d'etre for that moment and now you move to the final scene, where you, Perry fucking Mason, think you have have me cornered...in your fucking dreams, you asshole. I could show you time after time how you play your three card monte around here if we could get to the archives and somebody would help me, but I don't need to because I know, and anyone paying attention knows. If you need to see proof of it, then you must have Alzheimer's Disease, or you are totally unconscious of your own shit, like a baby in diapers.

What I said that you quoted is true. Just look at the words and read them. They are true. Pia knows and understands my meaning. I honestly don't care what you think of me, what you think of my words or ideas, and I don't care who agrees or disagrees with you on this either. You have no handle on me whatsoever. I don't respond well to abuse. If you want to communicate with me, you will have to change your ways. Otherwise, say whatever you will about me, I will consider the source and anyone who is worth their salt will do the same and not just jump on your bandwagon because you are Jim. I'm not your doting uncle or your idolizing cousin or your timid ex-premie follower or admirer. You don't impress me. Maybe you know alot, but now with the internet, who needs to eat your shit to access information one can find without the constant humiliation? You are one big smelly fish in a little pond and your think you're Moby Dick....well, you are only half right.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:34:15 (GMT)
From: Tired of OT Bickering
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yo, Jim and Sandy:
Message:
Could you take this shit elsewhere? We're trying to talk about the ex-Lord of the Universe here.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:33:01 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, you didn't answer Jim
Message:
Sandy,

You accused Jim of twisting your words, but failed to back up that accusation. Come on, surely he is easy game for you. Don't make it easy for him to accuse you of evasion.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:13:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes I did
Message:
I said what I said and it's true. Pia could outlive us all even though the odds are slight, we are all mortals here, and the Gita does say that the devotee laments neither for the living nor the dead.

Jim twisted that into an unfeeling cruel remark, which it most certainly was not. I feel no further need or requirement to participate in Jim's gutter tactics or be beholden to answer him any further.

Even a fucking fish starts to notice the hook shining in the folds of the worm and the line heading upwards if he lives long enough.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:19:40 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: what the hell DID you mean, sandy? make it plain.
Message:
pia has cancer. pia is a person. cancer is frightening. death is inevitable but no less frightening for that fact. cancer is a disease. diseases hurt. dying of disease hurts.
pontificating to someone dying of a terminal disease is the height of insensitivity and arrogance.
never presume the other guy or the onlookers think like you do or automatically know what you m ean.

what the hell do you think you're doing, strutting around here, putting on airs of great knowing and sagacity about things you are'nt undergoing yourself? do you have cancer? do you have terminal cancer? do you know what it is to stare death in the face and know that the fuse is lit? do you have any pedestal on which to stand above us all and posture yourself as if you can speak and try to shame and belittle us?
did you write the Gita? what makes you think you can lord it over us and spout passages from it as if you knew everything in it and what it means? who the hell do you think you are to pass yourself off as some kind of expert?

i found your quoting that passage totally offensive in the face of Pia's cancer. I would find it equally so in the face of any similar circumstance where terminal illness and death was certain.
this is cultspeak. taking the most human of emotions and fears and normal, ordinary behavior, and dashing them to invalidated ashes with pompous, secondhand, patronizing and unfeeling sermonizing.

it doesnt come from the real you. you're pretending to be something other than what we know you actually are. so you offend twice. once in denigrating cancer and the very real fear and changes of facing coming death, and twice in insulting our attention, coming as something and someone you're not and putting yourself up above us and using the words in a book you didn't write in order to crash our genuine discussion.

shut up on this one sandy.
your spouting off Gita didnt come off as compassionate or wise or sage. you made an ass of yourself.

difference being, no self respecting ass would ever climb on a stump and start quoting the Gita to his fellows and holding himself over them like some kind of self imagined 'devotee'

the only thing you're devoted to, is your spiritual ego. your conceit--
of yourself, as a 'devotee'
and thats what it is., conceit. past tense of conceived. its a concept you are pretending and imagining yourself to be.

to us, your'e just another someone. we keep waiting for you to come off the trip and get real.

you dont get down from that goddamned pedestal and take off the costume and the fuckin mask, I'm gonna rip you down.
you're just a GUY, buddy.

your name is only 'pass'. it's not 'god' or 'master' or 'saint'.
'pass'--as in, not excelling, not above average, good or fair. just 'pass'. not an A+ or a B . no more than a C, and more like a D. one cut above failing grade.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:45:03 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Who died and made YOU my mommy?
Message:
You are tripping. And for the few things you said that were accurate, they were totally overshadowed by your own delusions that you are Gaia in person but I am most certainly not Buddha in person.

You are so raw about anything smacking of religion that you totally overreacted to any reference to it and immediately associated negative things to the person who said it, me. What am I supposed to do, apologize for your blindness to what I said and your open and rude diatribe to put me in my place as you see fit? No, I won't apologize for your inability to read my words objectively, and I won't apologize for your subsequent behavior.

From just a guy to just a gal,

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:20:43 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Who died and made YOU my mommy? my mom died
Message:
and that pushed me to the head of the line, where there's nothing left between me and the Abyss, buddy. If I sound like Gaiea to you, then stop in your tracks, right where you are and listen, very attentively. Maybe I AM the voice of Gaiea, reaching out to remind you that no book-- and no goddamn pontificating, patronizing WORDS you know, are gonna save you--or anyone else on earth, from death. Putting on pompous AIRS and pretending to be holy and saintly ain't gonna do it either. Saints die no differently than you do. Try humility. Try surrendering in the face of the vast unknown and unknowable, and walk small.
Do you REALLY think someone like, oh, sayyyy--the Dalai Lama, would visit Pia on her deathbed and sanctimoniously use the hour to stand over her and suffocate her final moments of life with laying such assinine, irrelevant quotes on her?

We have all been 'should upon' enough in life, buddy. What is, IS. What I am experiencing as real, is real. I am through with feeling not good enough, not holy enough, not copying the next guy's ways to his satisfaction, enough, not sounding cosmic enough, not acting cool enough, not keeping up with the current fads enough--in short, the only one who has any right to 'should upon' me is me--and then, only out of my true sense of right and wrong, of worse and better.

I am sick of you and everyone else who can't think for themselves, coming off as if you HAVE something we don't. We were you, once. Have you forgotten who you're talking to?
You think you can disguise your ignorance, especially from yourself, hiding behind somebody else's books, and use them to try and look all high and sage and simperingly 'enlightened'--first, most,to yourself-- and to everyone around you.

real enlightenment speaks. it rings and arrests, rivetingly, even when it's speaking in a normal voice. It doesnt walk around with a big sign, pointing at itself, advertising and indicating and demanding all kinds of reverence and obedience and attention, saying 'hey, ain't I enlightened? dig on me! I'm da shit and you're not!'

It simply walks thru the world, commenting on life as it finds it. Seeing it, feeling it, reflecting it.
Not out to impress anyone. Not out to get anything from anybody. It just IS.

You can't get there by other people's ways, my poor friend. The only way to do it is by hard, lonely work, facing yourself inside yourself. Only you can do it for yourself. No one can do it for you. No book, no leader, no religion, none of it.

And facing terminal cancer, I'm sure Pia is there right now, facing it.

while you're not.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:01:35 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: My condolences about your mom
Message:
What makes you think I have airs about me? I have been through the pontificating phase, around the corner to being down home and relatable, and now it's like they are blending and I can be down home and still believe and talk about eternal truths as recorded in the holy books without being sanctimonious. I thnk you are knee jerking to any and all spiritual references and your alarms are going off just because of that, and maybe I'm not perfect yet too.

When I quote a book, I am not trying to be anything special. I mention things that I have experienced that correlate to things I have read. If this offends you, I am really sorry and I will endeavor to be more relatable.

I don't think I'm better or holier or smarter than anyone else here or anywhere. None of us really knows who's who except by how we treat each other. And I want to treat folks right and have it come back right too. I don't mind an occasional reference to a timeless quote if it's appropriate.

And as for what I am facing in my life, you have no idea. But I will be the first to admit that I have a part in everything that happens to me, including my inevitable demise. I am not insulted or hurt by that realization.

Peace,

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:50:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: This is the only way Sandy knows how to argue
Message:
Pathetic, isn't it? He just rises up on his back legs and hisses like a motherfucker. Janet pegged you completely, Sandy. Yet you continue to lie, lie, lie, lie, LIE. This bullshit about reading your words 'objectively' ... words aren't silly putty, fool. You said what you said and can't escape the fair meaning of your ugly comments.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:14:08 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Jim, the Master of the Ugly Comment
Message:
What the hell is your your freaking problem, Jim Heller? I have to accept the fact of your existence, but that is as far as I have to go. You just go on and keep doing what you are doing, and I will keep doing what I am doing, and we will both reap what we sow. Let the harvest be the judge. For now, you have clouded the threads and posts with your overbearing and obnoxious presence as I see it and created an army of straw men to surround you, since you know that not many here will stand up to your crap.

You are entitled to your oponion of anything anyone says, just as everyone else is. But to impose your stern judgement as if you ruled this place (and nobody questions it when you do so you are all the more encouraged to continue), is way out of line for a forum or anywhere where civil conversation and the sharing of ideas is encouraged. If you did not care for what I said, great. If you found it ugly, offensive or insensitive, swell. But if you come at me and tell me that I ought to be ashamed of myself, then you can go fuck yourself. That is where you cross the line.
'You ought to be ashamed of yourself' sounds like a church lady scolding a kid for getting into the wine, not the great and powerful Jim Heller.

Sandy

PS

Why does Silvia have to be so stressed out and worried about being honest with you about how you make her feel when you post here, to her and to others? She's not the first, and you just love being feared, dontcha? That's definitely a cha-ching kind of talent in your line of work, isn't it?

You practice and hone your professional craft on the people here, premies and ex-premies alike, dontcha? All the gambits, all the word jockeying, I have caught onto a few of your games, but am not about to spend time proving it. Those who have been your guinea pigs know who they are, those whom you have demeaned and danced words around just to get some satisfaction of being over someone else, pushing your ideas and stomping others' as if you were at some sort of demolition derby of the intellect. Then you shift into the button down guy who closes the case. I just need to ignore you more and more and then you can find someone else to pester.

Your transparency is intuitively obvious to the most causal observer.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:04:40 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: your fake enightenment is equally transparent
Message:
as well, 'brother'. Jim has had intensive training in critical thinking, in examining arguments and exploring their merits, and the fates of people's lives hinge on whether he can make issues clear to a panel of everyday people so they can judge a person's situation as fairly as possible.

You have no skill at navigating such pressures and outcomes. Your entire style of encounter is procrastination and fluff. You're faking your way through life, my man. Your anxiety is your own soul, telling you it's getting nervous about how late the hour is getting and how little you've done by this point in life. You're still looking about for someone else to come and save you from yourself, and there's no one in sight.

No one is going to come, either. It's all you. You better get moving on the work.

Some days, jim is the ass. On those days, he's all bite and bark, and you're the better men for listening to your heart and being kind. Other days, You're the ass, for being inappropriately sanctimonious and evasive and dishonest with yourself and your audience, when strength and clarity and resolute conviction is what the day demands.

I stand here, independent of both of you, and using my own intelligence and wisdom, i referee the match, and call the points and the rounds, as you two idiots get into it. Sometimes you win the point. Sometimes Jim does.
What gives me the right, you say? I give me the right. I can take either one of you on, or take on both of you at the same time.I've got my lifetime arsenal stocked, right here, gleaned and hard won from decades of experience with idiots, just like each of you.
And you do sound like idiots, when you get into it.

Jim can be a shark. And you can be a simp. Both of you are right, and both of you are wrong. But i would say in overall snapshot of how well you are coping with life, I'm afraid Jim is doing far better in the big picture than you are, Sandy. He knows what he knows. He can articulate it with strngth and clarity and conviction in his own terms, while you remain impotent and ineffectual and unable to act, hampered by other people's concepts, other people's words, other people's fears, other people's fantasies. You have a wife who is disgusted with you, two teenage kids who are likewise seeing right thru you, no money, no accomplishment, no plan, and no personal enlightenment you have arrived at by your own hard work.
Jim, by contrast, has a woman who loves him, a solid income from a genuinely valuable career, the respect of his peers, a sense of self and definition, clarity of mind and conviction, the ability to validly defend himself and others, and can quote other's works in eminently appropriate context, and only when it adds to the intelligence of the discussion, not in a desperation for the sake of hiding his own ignorance, as you do.

All in all, sandy, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It is not enough to mean well. You have to actually get up off your ass and DO well.
That doesn't mean sitting on the corner, smiling all day, and hoping you'll Pass. It means breaking out of the tough membrane of self-inflicted illusion and your weak and wishful hopings, and DOing what it will take, both in yourself, and out in the world, to establish what is right, with strength.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 04:03:37 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: FYI
Message:
Janet,

I wasn't going to mention this because it's not anyone else's business, but since I am getting so much flak for being insensitive, please let me share something with you.

Last weekend when I became aware of Pia's site and after reading about it on this site, I wrote her two e-mails.

The first one was about Jagdeo and other things that bothered me about Maharaji and how things are being taken care of. That e-mail was for her site, if they choose to use it.

The second one was marked personal to her. In it I told her I wished her well and urged her to check out something called Essiac tea, which is known in Canada to cure cancer, even some far advanced. It's an old Ojibwa formula that was discovered in the early 20th century by a nurse, Renee Caisse. The FDA in the USA won't alow such claims to be made out loud, due to their bedpartners, the pharmaceutical, hospital and insurance industries, not that they don't do some good, but they have this tendency to keep known cures off the market, ya know?

Within 24 hours, I got a very sweet reply from her thanking me for my suggestion, and that she had already had some positive experiences with the Essiac tea, and she thanked me for reminding her about it. Neither of us discussed Maharaji or anything about him or EV in this dialog. It was just from one soul to another.

That was my experience with Pia. What I said here to you all assembled was for you, what I said to her was for her. Who among us wants to be lamented for, alive or dead? Who among us wants to be pitied and cried over? None I bet. So what is so bad about saying it out loud. It is only coarse in the interpretation of it. I also believe in weeping with those who weep and laughing with those who laugh, in being all things to all men, as much as possible. And I'm not telling you this to impress, for if that were so, I would not have waited until now. I am telling you this now to clear the air so we can communicate better.

I have to do some freelance camera work in NYC for the next few days and probably not be able to post until Thursday or Friday. I hope that what I have shared with you here will fill in some of the blanks about me that you assumed were the same old garbage that everyone deals who mentions a holy book. It ain't me babe.

Take care,

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 15:12:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: That's all beside the point
Message:
Sandy,

It's obvious what you're doing here. rather than deal with your own words, you try to compensate for them. Sure, you know what you said about Pia was over the top. Suggesting that she's no more likely to die than you who could, after all, get hit by a car. Then adding fuel to fire by saying that the Gita says you shouldn't get worked up over the dead anyway. (I figure I might as well paraphrase as, even when I quote you exactly, you accuse me of somehow twisting your words!) You knew that was all new age smoke you got caught blowing so, quite obviously, you tried to compensate by getting all nicey-nicey with Pia.

Why can't you ever just deal with things squarely? You said some stuff that was cruel in a classically new-age way. Unfortunately, you dealt with it true to type as well.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:23:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: This is what you do with personal information.
Message:
You hit folks on the head with it. You don't know if my wife is crazy or not, you don't know the circumstances of my professional life, you don't know what's up with my kids in any detail, you just weigh and measure what has been accumulated so far, so mix in a few factoids you know about me, and judge the winner by who has more stuff and who has a job and who has people around them and generalize your ass off about me from what little you know.

I like your directness and honesty and courage to speak up, but I do not appreciate or respect your snap judgements and your generalizations about whose life is worth more at this point in time. The coin of the realm is love, not money or stuff or a woman on your arm. The money, stuff, job and woman can come and go...it can happen to the nicest people and it does.

If the legal profession, and Jim, were as you painted it, and him, and lawyers were so astute, the criminal justice system would be alot further along than it is. I think that you are biased towards Jim, despite your strong desire to be fair and impartial in this matter. You just love those 'bad boys' dontcha? That seems to be a trend. Maybe that's why so many folks still like Maharaji, because he still has that 'bad boy' image, only a bit too bad for the exers.

Keep it comin', I can take it and there is some good in what you say, after I filter out YOUR pontificating and acting like you are the earth mother street wise yogini, but you don't see it in too many others around here. YOu can pontificate and act superior without using a book, ya know. We could all use some humility around here.

Sandy

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 02:06:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You forgot 'good looking' (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:16:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: No you didn't
Message:
I twisted nothing. I took nothing out of context. I merely challenged what you said as being extremely stupid and callous -- which, of course, it is -- and that's when you accused me as you did.

Whatever. Just another instance of you and your new age bullshit. Fuck off.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:07:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Exactly!
Message:
Sandy wrote:
I said what I said and it's true. Pia could outlive us all even though the odds are slight,
we are all mortals here, and the Gita does say that the devotee laments neither for the
living nor the dead.

Jim twisted that into an unfeeling cruel remark, which it most certainly was not. I feel
no further need or requirement to participate in Jim's gutter tactics or be beholden to
answer him any further.

Even a fucking fish starts to notice the hook shining in the folds of the worm and the
line heading upwards if he lives long enough.

Sandy

Jim responded:
I twisted nothing. I took nothing out of context. I merely challenged what you said as
being extremely stupid and callous -- which, of course, it is -- and that's when you
accused me as you did.

Whatever. Just another instance of you and your new age bullshit. Fuck off. -Jim

Exactly my point! Your interpretation of my words was twisted. Because you are being stupid and callous in this situation, you see through those glasses. You did not challenge, you accused. Fuck off, and that is not new age, that is a time-tested and ancient custom. -Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 05:58:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes YOU DID JIM! nt
Message:
aha
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:32:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It's a simple enough question, isn't it?
Message:
Sandy,

You accused me of twisting your words. How? If you can't say, then maybe you're wrong. In that case, apologize. Simple.

Alternatively, maybe you're right. Show me. How did I twist your words? Show me. If you're right, I'LL apologize.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:26:47 (GMT)
From: asco [silvia]
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Shut the fack up JIM!!!! go to sleep or something
Message:
caca
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:29:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: asco
Subject: Is that you, Silvia?
Message:
Silvia,

Put your name in the 'from' box. Get it? Name, 'from' box. Name, 'from' box. Name, 'from' box.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 05:45:05 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes general, I'll try to remember why is important
Message:
like many people can be writting to you Helelr at this time, big deal. I know, follow the rules, play the game, etc...Sorry FA
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 04:52:42 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, I added her name in
Message:
Silvia, please put your name in the box, I'm getting tired of having to do it for you.
Thanks

FA

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:17:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sue me too, asshole
Message:
I'm not proving anything to you. Kiss my ass. And I don't think that Pia was playing on her condition or looking for sympathy. I think she was just stating a fact of her life to emphasize how much it meant to her to do what she was doing with her time, right or wrong.

He who is always looking for angles is the one shooting them.
Fuck you and have a nice night.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 14:30:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: is that your rewording to explain yourself?
Message:
you thought that by trotting out the lofty and ancient Gita and offhandedly tossing that passage around that you could sound sage and knowing and embellish your image with impressive punditry, when what you really meant in normal everyday reference was that you don't think Pia was making anything more or less of her cancer than the fact that it's true?

i got news for you sandy. you showed a whole lot more of your delusions than you meant to.

drop the inflated references. shri hans hated them and so do we. you're not in the mahabarata, kid. youre in present day new jersey. talk ordinary when you come here. you're just another guy. you're no fabled character in some famous book. got it?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:53:23 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You talkin' ta me?
Message:
OK, Jersey style she wants it....

Look, lady, get da fuck outta my face. I don't hafta 'splain myself to some ***** who comes up ta me so f*cking rude, accusing me of all kinds of sh*t that wasn't in MY freakin' heart when I did it, so it musta come from HER in the first place...the beauty and the ugliness, lady, are in da eye of da freakin' BEHOLDER.

You want fries wit dat?

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:38:38 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: YEAH, OM TAWKIN TA YOUSE! LISSEN, BUDDY--
Message:
yoo come in heah, awl high an mighty, tawkin like you gots some kinda holy t'ing ovah evvyboddy, an you ain't no diffunt dan me aw dat odda guy! Come awffit awreddy. You go round quoting awl dese so cawlled 'scriptchahs', like yoo t'ink yaw God Himseff, an weah spose ta bow down and get awl quiet an wowed, dat yoo, da great 'SANNNDEE', HAZ JUS COME DOWN OFF DA MOUNTN, an YOOah gonna make US feel all ashamed a being YOOMUN!
geddouddaheah! It's a buncha crap! it aint got nuttin ta doo wit real life, an dat's da troot! You caan't hannl da troot! yaw a PANZY. runnin away fum evvyting, an yoozing awl dese fancy-ass books ta hide behine!
Yoo pooah sonofabitch...you don evun know how stoopit yoo soun, wen ya doon that, ya know dat? if it waznt so dammm pathetic, I'd layaff. But da sad pawt is, you don know yoah wastin yoah own life. Yoo know somp'n's rawng, but choo got NO ideah what da hell it IZ.
An da clock iz tickin, buddy. It ain't gonna wait fa Yoo, dat's fa shooah.

Yoo can yell at me awl yoo want. go ahead! waste some maw time! See if I cayeah! See if it gets yoo brownie points, wenn yoah time's up, an its yaw tu'n ta say byebye, an face the Big One!.

Go ask ya mothah,ya wimp. Go ask yer kids! I dare ya! See if they don give ya da troot!

what, yoo waitin fa GOD to co tell ya hisself?

bettah watch out, kid. He might just! But by den, yoo won't be able ta get back heah and do a damm ting abowt it any moah.

Oh! wait! whaddam i heahin? Hold da fone! What? What? Oh, ok--ok ok ok ok -oll tell'im!yeah, bye,----
hey kid! go home! ya mothah wants ya! she just finished washin ya balls fa ya! They're all nice and clean an prest, an she fluffed em up special, jus fa yooo!!

Come back ennytime, kid! Its touches my hawt to watch da young one grow up! ya knowatI meen?

Poor shmuck. wonda what got inta HIM.

----------------
oh--an dis one's from my sistahs, fa yoah disrespeck of ah gendah:

(bitch slap) SMACK!
theah--yoo look so much betta wit culla in ya cheeks, sweethawt! run along home, now. ya motha's waitin.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:05:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Another new age defence?
Message:
Janet (and I, for that matter) read your words in their fair and simple meaning, you refuse to admit that you meant what you said and now, what, it's JANET that must have thought those vile thoughts, just because she can read english?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:47:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hey, i not only read english, i read french and
Message:
spanish and what's more, I CAN EVEN READ BETWEN the lines, too....
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:16:44 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Slow day at the office, jerkweed?
Message:
What are you doin', stalking me? Maybe I should check out the laws for cyber-harrassment....do ya know a good attorney?
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:26:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Yah. Booh. Fascist Pig-Dog. Sack the FA. (nt)
Message:
Fancy a pint next week FA?
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:45:37 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yah. Booh. Fascist Pig-Dog. Sack the FA. (nt)
Message:
I'd respond here to your kind invitation, but I'm worried that the fascist FA will delete my response before you get a chance to read it.

BTW, don't you think that Sandy is losing his marbles?

Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:29:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Yesh, you pacifist fig FA mofo
Message:
what he sed.............
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:02:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sandy
Subject: More than a minor difference, Sandy
Message:
You post was OT (not marked as such) and served ONLY to slag Jim and his style of interaction - something you had already done lower down. Jim's thread to/about you was on-topic in the sense it used your 'argument' regarding karma and illness to illustrate the danger and stupidity - not to mention sheer insensitivity - of prehistoric Hindu-based belief systems when applied to real lives.

(BTW: My youngest son was born with only one arm. Would you be willing to inform him his misfortune came about through unspecified past-life indiscretions?)

Were I still FA I'd have left Jim's thread and deleted yours. No question. Nothing personal, Sandy, just a question of content.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel
Message:
You post was OT (not marked as such) and served ONLY to slag Jim and his style of interaction - something you had already done lower down. Jim's thread to/about you was on-topic in the sense it used your 'argument' regarding karma and illness to
illustrate the danger and stupidity - not to mention sheer insensitivity - of prehistoric Hindu-based belief systems when applied to real lives. -Nigel

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. the difference between you and Jim - most people and Jim - is that you will state your difference of opinion and be civil about it, whereas Jim will commence with namecalling, epithets, violent personal verbal degradation and abuse. That is the problem he brings to the mix. I happen to agree with him that he and the Michaels were misrepresented on Pia's site, but that doesn't cut any slack off the way he deals with me...two different issues. -Sandy

(BTW: My youngest son was born with only one arm. Would you be willing to inform him his misfortune came about through unspecified past-life indiscretions?) -Nigel

You are his father. It is yours to do any explaining to him about life. When my father was 7, he witnessed his father being murdered. We've all had our misfortunes. I hope your son has adjusted well and has learned how to compensate.

Were I still FA I'd have left Jim's thread and deleted yours. No question. Nothing personal, Sandy, just a question of content. -Nigel

That's not how I see it regarding content. Take care. -Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:56:08 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Hey Sandy.
Message:
I too was pissed off when your thread disappeared, purely for egoistical reasons I might add.

In fact, it could well have been my post that caused the thread to be deleted. It's the story of what happened in the darshan line at Amaroo that they want to keep quiet.

However, I can assure that the forum isn't 'rigged'. I was the FA for over a year, and know the present FA. The FA has the right to delete any posts or threads that he or she wants.

As a general rule, I think deleting threads where people simply make personal attacks on each other is a good policy. It doesn't take long for food fights to develop and they really are a pain in the neck.

Censorships sucks, but so do fights in bars.

Anth the sunset.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:10:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, I INSIST you repost the darshan tale now!!!!
Message:
It's a classic right up there with the cheese post and Maharaji on ice...
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:49:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Here's the dirt Nigel.
Message:
Okay Nigel,

I didn’t save it, so I’ll have to type it again. Now I must point out, I’ve pieced this together from different sources, and haven’t heard Jim’s version yet. But as you’ll see after reading the tale, I don’t want to push him in what could be a very sensitive area.

A while ago, a few of us forum moderates, salam, myself, Jim, the Fat Fag, and a couple of others, had a meeting about furthering our expose of the cult. Amaroo was coming up, so we decided to send an infiltrator to film a few aspects of the programme.

Salam is too well known down there, so he was ruled out. (He was supposed to organise an aeroplane flying over the site during the Captains’ address, with a polite message. He disappeared for a couple of weeks, until Aussie Ji bailed him out. The money had disappeared, salam had memory loss, but that’s another story.)

Anyway, we decided to send Jim, (I thought you knew all about this Nigel). There was also a problem with Jim being recognised, as we know cult security have photos of suspect activists. The Fat Fag suggested drag. Jim jumped up really quickly, and said, rather too loud, “YES. I mean, er.. yes, sounds good.”

Thelma and I looked in lots of catalogues, got his measurements and bought him some nice summer outfits. The salmon pink darshan suit was particularly striking, especially with the blond wig and red stilletos. I thought it would make him look like a tart, but Thelma talked me out of it. She was right.

So off went Jim, with wig, wardrobe and smartcard. He entered Amaroo as “Jimima”.

Nobody suspected Jimima at all, and everything seemed to be going fine, until darshan day. Jimima concealed the camera in her bra, and joined the line of faithfull.

She came into the darshan room as Peter Frampton was playing. She approached the Captain, seated on his throne and said something to him. There was a large flash, crack and shudder.

The darshan room froze for a moment. There was a smell of sulphur in the air. Jimima was unconscious on the floor. The Captain had fallen off his chair. He was coughing, and spluttering, “Cognac dogs. Fast or you die tonight.”

Jimima was carried into the darshan recovery room. There was light filtering through the tent walls. The atmosphere was holy. Peter Frampton could still be heard faintly in the background. Jimima had been transported out of her body. When she returned, she’d forgotten her previous life as an aggressive male lawyer in Canada. She was Jimima, the pure hearted premie again. She had discovered the woman within.

And what’s more, she was staring into the eyes of Bruce, security honcho, 43, unmarried body builder, looking for love.

Despite everything, for a few hours I think he found it. And Jimima felt the same way. It wasn’t long before they left for the coast to get to know each other better.

Nigel, the story gets a bit nasty here, and I won’t go into details. Jimima ended up with a black eye and restored memory. Bruce ended up in the casualty ward of the local hospital. I don’t know what they were up to, or who’s idea it was, but there was a bath of custard, vacuum cleaner and handcuffs involved. There may be other objects they haven’t found yet.

So, I explained all this to Sandy, and told him to be easy on Jim, who hasn’t been feeling himself lately.

Anth, reliable source of news and information.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:59:42 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth-you're on fire****Good stuff!******(nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:16:46 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Oh Anth...you're hilarious (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:11:22 (GMT)
From: PatC the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ...and Jimina is still not able to sit down
Message:
but (s)he kept the little pink number for the next ExPremie dot Orgy in SF.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:21:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC the Fat Fag
Subject: That's a touchy subject Pat.
Message:
If we can get our hands on the film, I think many questions will be answered.

You were right about the pink outfit though Thelma, that lipstick set it off.

Anth the silk feather

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:40:24 (GMT)
From: PatC the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The pink outfit goes so well with my black leather
Message:
SLING!

I am tempted to ask Jimina if I can borrow it for the S&M Festival on Folsom Street.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:10:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC the Fat Fag
Subject: Is this any way to conduct a forum, gentlemen?
Message:
Anth,

I know how it feels to write a good, thoughtful post and have no one at all respond. It hurts, Anth. I know that. In fact, that's why I replied as I did to something or other you wrote the other day ('Excellent, excellent post, Anth'). I'd like to say I actually read your post but Anth, we all get busy, you know. I'm sure that it was at least a good enough post. I'm certainly not faulting you for writing it. Please understand, Anth, I'm trying to help. Indeed, if only I'd read your words first I might be able to twist them, or possibly take them out of context for you or something. As it is ...

Well, Anth, here's the thing. Just because no one replies to your serious, thoughtful posts -- like the one I'm sure you wrote and will indeed read, if not now sometime later when I comb the archives -- it's really not fair to write long, scandalous diatribes against me, of all people, homophobic as I am (when I go to San Francisco I get the customs guy to stamp my passport on a separate, loose piece of paper. Yeah, I can admit that). And now to see your buddies join in here, cliquing away, all laughing and everything. Anth, I'm going to send you a demand letter too. I've got to.

Meanwhile, yes, Amaroo was weird. Tell you the truth, I remember some of it but not everything. I'm just wondering, maybe you can tell me, what exactly is this thing over here? Weird, eh?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 09:16:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is this any way to conduct a forum, gentlemen?
Message:
First Jim,

I was touched you pretended you'd read my Version Contol post. It really does make a difference, as you know, and quite rightly pointed out, to get a response. Otherwise you feel like you're shouting into an empty dark room. One or two sleeping inhabitants makes all the difference.

Now, on your darshan story from Amaroo. I'm just trying to piece the facts together here Jim. If we had the film you'd taken that would help a lot.

Anyway, here's what we're left with. Bruce in hospital in Brisbane, (apparently they're still removing things. Did you misplace a cigarette lighter the shape of Concorde by the way?)

A bill for one night in a hotel on the coast, $5,445 AUS.

Various articles of womens clothing.

The keys to a set of handcuffs (the handcuffs are still round Bruce's ankle, but they got the Coke machine off.)

On the homophobia. There was never a hint of homosexuality by either party. Bruce really thought you were a sister. (Actually, I quite fancied you myself for a moment, when I saw you in the pink outfit and red stilletos).

And, as far as we were concerned, you were simply undercover. Then there was the memory loss when light met darkness in the darshan room.

But no homosexuals Jim. Honest.

Good to have you back.

Anth, likes beer, football and has dirty fingernails.

How's the eye?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 05:52:19 (GMT)
From: ~Silvia~
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: JIM is a premie!!! NEWS!
Message:
Meanwhile, yes, Amaroo was weird. Tell you the truth, I remember some of it but not everything. I'm just wondering, maybe you can tell me, what exactly is this thing over here? Weird, eh

What are u sayin?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:35:11 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA:delete all my posts.can't see/think/write
Message:
straight tonight :)))))))))

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:19:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I say delete them all
Message:
All the threads on this subject are OT (you've gotta know that when Jim and Catweasel agree on something), and everyone already knows that Jim doesn't like you and vice versa.

Also, this place is not 'totally rigged' - and the posts deleted had nothing to do with 'history' - puh-leeze!!

Sorry, Sandy, but I'm not in the mood for a censorship argument today...

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:44:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Whether you are in the mood or not, this is the
Message:
situation. You can face it or be in denial about it. There are favorites here who get preferential treatment, just like the x-rated premies, only these are x-rated ex-premies. Animal Farm revisited. You threw out the 'humans', now some animals are more equal than others. I learned this in high school. And the beat goes on. Who likes or dislikes who should have no bearing on which posts get deleted and which ones remain.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:05:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sheesh, Sandy
Message:
I wish everyone here would have a bit of sympathy for the FA's. Like I said, I think they should delete all the threads, but it's their call. And I KNOW they don't enjoy deleting threads, because they get posts like yours (and not just from you). I am guessing that they probably DO have posters who they like more than others, and they are more prone to delete some people's posts that others. It's an imperfect world, and we're all human - even the FA's. That's just the way it is.

You were able to refute Jim in the thread he started about you. You then started ANOTHER thread to further refute him. Can you understand why this would get deleted? Like I said, I'd delete them all, but thank god I don't have to make those decisions.

Frankly, I think you are blowing this WAY out of proportion, especially with your comparisons to 'Animal Farm' and 'rewriting history'. I don't like my posts to be deleted either, but they have been - a lot of times. I have given the FA's carte blanche to delete anything I write so they don't have to worry about it (not bragging - I just know how it is).

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:56:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What you have to learn, Sandy, is this
Message:
Not everyone is equal. Some mad paranoid freak, like your poor Graves guy, for instance, gets laughed out of court as 'delusional'. Sorry, but that's pretty darned disrespectful, isn't it? But you think that somehow bringing his whacky ideas into the discussion isn't going to make you look foolish as well? You're dreaming.

Not all ideas deserve respect. Some deserve great respect. What I posted about the origin of AIDS is what they call 'science'. It deserves respect. What you then offered is what they call 'paranoid nonsense' and it deserves no respect. Your head is filled with low-grade ideas and here, when you finally had a chance to actually learn something, you just go back to what you know best -- foolishness.

You get exactly the respect you deserve here, Sandy. Many have bent over backwards to applaud your slow, slow, slow progress out of the cult. You've grandstanded about it at length, have run a few victory laps even before the race was done. Yet no one can mandate that people don't ridicule the ridiculous. Unfortunately for you, that includes a lot of your belief system. Oh well......

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:05:33 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What I have to learn, Jim, is this
Message:
That snakes can be premies or ex-premies. And not to mess with snakes. And you are a snake.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:00:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: FA: This place is totally rigged and that sucks
Message:
Sandy I don't like censorship either but that is not the same as 'rewriting history.' Why don't you ask the management WHY they deleted your post? (not that I know the answer)

'Totally' is also too broad of a sweeping statement and smacks of some nutty conspiracy type thinking, which we all know is (snicker) nuts!

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:51:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It happens over and over with the same usual
Message:
suspects benefitting from the deletions and the same people being muzzled. It sucks. It's bullshit. And you know it too. The pattern has been established and it repeats itself. That qualifies for 'totally' from where I stand. Spend a moment or two in my shoes and get back to me if you wish.

You can ask why if you want to, I think I know already. It's a closed little clique that pretends to be an open forum.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:45:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Aw, you're just pissed
Message:
You're angry because something you took the time to write and think about, has been deleted. I can't blame you there.

And you get particularly irritated with Jim. Again I can understand that. Been there, remember?

Ok, granted, from your prospective, it might seem a little cliquey here. But look how much you've been allowed to post. Sandy, it's been thousands and thousands of words. You have had a few posts deleted. So have I. So has Selene, so has Jim.

We've all bitched about it, so go ahead and outgas, but don't expect it to never happen again. Move on, as they say (snicker.)

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:53:23 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Besides that, this palce advertises as a FORUM
Message:
Forums, as a rule, don't have administrators who are naturally biased to one side of the issue usually being talked about now, do they?

Oh but 'forum' sounds so cool, so correct, so open. But it too is a monkey trap of another kind, for it is not truly a forum.

I appreciate your telling me that you can somewhat relate.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:44:01 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Well guess what...again....Sandy
Message:
Forums, as a rule, don't have administrators who are naturally biased to one side of the issue usually being talked about now, do they?

The FAs, myself included are ALL EX-PREMIES, so of course we're 'naturally biased to one side of the issue'.

Jesus fucking Christ Sandy, the internet is chock full of 'forums', many of which may even meet your high expectations of fairness and impartiality - so if you don't like the way this one is run, you know what to do, right?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 12:23:01 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Well guess what...again....FA
Message:
Forums, as a rule, don't have administrators who are naturally biased to one side
of the issue usually being talked about now, do they?

The FAs, myself included are ALL EX-PREMIES, so of course we're 'naturally
biased to one side of the issue'.

Jesus fucking Christ Sandy, the internet is chock full of 'forums', many of which may
even meet your high expectations of fairness and impartiality - so if you don't like the
way this one is run, you know what to do, right? -FA

Dear A: (just for Administrator)

So if everyone else is doing it, that makes it OK for you to do, right? For such a self-righteous, watchdog group of fair-minded people who have themselves gotten caught in the cogs of a large organization and gotten bruised or worse from it, you sure do play fast and loose with the term 'forum' your own brand of fairness. And I maintain that a FORUM is meant to be by definition a neutral place where folks can meet and air out different ideas and points of view without worrying if the house is going to shut them down.

Having said that, I must say that the whole thing in NOT rigged as I said earlier, and that I have thanked God for this place being here from time to time. But that does not mean it's beyond criticism or the need to improve on itself. It's just that the way you run it is not really a 'forum', and the irony is that you have a wacko lawyer running around here with an overdeveloped sense of self-righteousness and a huge unchecked ego, flavored with his own personal dysfunctions, plus he's wielding the Oxford dictionary hitting folks over the head with it, along with other reference books of his choosing and disposition. The pot calls the kettle black, get it? Keep your own doorstep clean.

As for the invitation to find another forum, what a cop out to addressing the substance of this issue.

Sandy

s

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 10:12:45 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Well guess what...again....Sandy
Message:
Fantastic!!!

FA, READ THIS. READ WHAT YOU JUST WROTE! READ IT AS MANY TIMES AS IT TAKES FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND HOW ABSURD IT IS.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 15:45:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Hey, we KNOW how you'd run things, Mili
Message:
Mili,

You ran a forum yourself for a bit, didn't you? Tell us about it. Tell us how the moment premies started arguing over whether or not Maharaji was the Lord you told them all to shut the fuck up. Tell us how you fraudulently took all the names of anyone who'd ever posted there and pretended that they'd signed your Usenet petition to eliminate alt.cult.maharaji.

You're a looser, Mili. Look it up.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:38:31 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It was a GUESTBOOK, you psychopath
Message:
Premie.com had a guestbook. You barged in there and tried to turn it into your personal sideshow. You got kicked out. Any wonder? THIS is supposed to be an 'unmoderated forum' from what it says on the intro page. Unmoderated forum, my foot.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 00:24:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: What I'm talking about had zip to do with me
Message:
Mili,

I've already explained elsewhere that Harlan threw a big tantrum ('It's MY website! Mine!') when I mentioned EPO (or was it the newsgroup?) -- once -- on his page. That got me banned for life.

But that's not at all what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the fact that as soon as a couple of premies starting arguing about whether or not it was right to call Maharaji the Lord, etc., you, who'd recently taken on the job of co-hosting the site, shut them both down and made the general rule that the site wasn't for discussions or arguments. Debate was verbotten.

So that's what happened. No longer did anyone dare saying anything beyond 'Hi, I'm a premie from Ohio looking for other premies who might know where I lost my cat' or 'Maharaji is so beautiful. 'Bye!'.

Don't lie, Mili. You know you did that. And as for it being a guestbook, whatever. It was a place for discussion and functioned perfectly as such until you decided discussion wasn't what you wanted. Soon after that Maharaji's servants shut it down anyway.

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 06:50:16 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Did I mention that you are a slimy creep? (nt)
Message:
Fuck you.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:25:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is 'loser' spelled with two o's in Canada....
Message:
....or are you just illiterate besides being an asshole? And you criticize others all the time. 'Loser' is a spelling word for grade school, dickwad, so before you bust anyone else for anything, just remember who you are and how you have treated other people for at least three years, and you will remember the word 'Loser' and hopefully how to spell it.

'Looser' is perhaps how you should wear your necktie and how you should conduct your human interactions. Maybe more blood would be able to get to your brain and you would not be instigating so many skirmishes, perhaps acting out something bad that happened to you a long time ago...

Wishing you well,

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:28:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It was a joke, fool (nt)
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:41:00 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit, Jim, Doodoo del Toro...
Message:
The archives is FULL of your inability to spell 'Loser' correctly. I remember many of them myself, which I can now commit to the archives and free up thsoe brain cells for more important matters.

If you can't even admit you habitually spell a word wrong and have done so for a long time, then how can you be trusted to own up to the truth about bigger things once you have been busted?

And of all the words in the human vocabulary, I find it ironic that you have trouble with 'loser'. Sounds like some sort of denial syndrome. You can overcome it though.

Sandy who is optimistic but not naiive...yeah, it was a joke alright, sure Jim.....

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 20:00:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Right over your head, I guess
Message:
Just a long, running joke here, Sandy. Unlike you, I'm, not a liar.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:38:59 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I put a lock on the button you push called 'liar!
Message:
So you can keep pushing it until the tip of your finger goes numb. No response, not true, go fuck yourself. That's about all the juice I have for the likes of you, you weasel. Whatever you say at the site watercooler about me doesn't matter because your input is not to be trusted.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:14:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It's closed little clique that pretends to be open
Message:
Believe me, Sandy, I went through that perception too at times. There is a clique here. Actually there are several cliques. That's life. That's the way people function. The atheists agree with each other. The woo woos agree with each other and some of us just say whatever we want to and take the consequences.

I also had a big fight with Jim because I screamed bloody murder when one of my posts was deleted and unfortunately I am now indebted to him becasue I lost the argument and have had to sell my soul into his satanic service for the rest of my life.

But, seriously, I hope that you will get over your upset and see that this really is a WIDE open forum - wider and more open than anything you will find on the net. And a whole lot more fun and educative than most.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:08:03 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy
Message:
Considering you post about 10 posts for every 1 most other people post does it really matter if you lose the odd one here or there :))))

No I'm being frivolous....of course it matters .

How about this for an explanation ( but I'm not the FA so I'm only guessing) .....there was already a thread started by Jim and you could and should have refuted what he said about you ( if that's what you wanted to do)in that same thread. You do have a habit of starting posts for every train of thought whereas they could all be contained in a single ( fairly relevant ) thread. As I say I'm only guessing.And even that doesnt really excuse the deletion. Most of your posts I either dont agree with the thrust or dont agree with particular points. I THINK YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO POST WITHOUT DELETION THOUGH.

Personally I dont read many of the Sandy/Jim encounters except for the occasional pop in and out for some entertainment.

i dont know ....I agree id be miffed if my post was deleted without explanation. Let's see what the FA says.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:22:52 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital just phoned me!
Message:
I just had a phone call from Elan Vital to tell me that there is plenty of space in Nottingham and that if I want to contribute I am very welcome!!! I told them that, unfortunately, I cannot attend this time for personal health reasons.( I'm sick of it!)
This is a first for me! I have never before been solicited by phone to attend an event. I've had the odd call for money!!! but this is new one on me. They must be getting desperate.
It is also a very strange coincidence, because I haven't posted on the forum for a while now, and there I was, about to submit, if you know what I mean! then 'Brrring brrring' Hello this is Elan Vital!
Duh? luv Kelly
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 18:26:14 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: guess they don't read da news,Toejamanandji.P+L(nt
Message:
Peace and Lentils,
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:29:49 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Prostrations at da smelly feet. nt.
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:42:42 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: They are getting desperate.
Message:
Hi Kelly,

Just been poking around EV site and yes it seems they are getting very desperate. All the other registrations for Europe are closed except for Nottingham. So with only 13 days to go its no surprise they are phoning people up.

Must go, I hear my phone ringing.

Love kev.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:20:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Go Kelly.
Message:
Otherwise you'll miss the 'Maharaji on Ice Spectacular'.

They must be desperate to get seats on bums. The Captain takes it as a personal insult if there are empty seats. They've already tried to fill it up by inviting children.

Anth hoping it will melt.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:12:27 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW and all
Subject: I was nearly interested!!
Message:
A month or so ago, I would have gone, purely out of intrest.
As much as anything to check my own reactions (a a reent ex )
Remember Anth, we discussed this phenomenon/need to constantly check and re-check ones response.
I took a holiday from the forum because I was spendng too much time thinking about Rawat. Worse still, dreaming about him. Aarrgh!
Last night, in my dream, I challenged him and beat him in arggument,
It was my first dream as an ex-premie, it takes time for the reality yto sink in.
Now, I can't imagine paying to listen to that crapmaster speak. How sad that people do.
Please excuse spelling etc. there's something wrong with my word processor. I can't delete anything.
Kelly
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:06:13 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I was nearly interested!!
Message:
Hi Kelly,

Actually, if nobody at all recognised me, I think I'd go, just to write about it. I'd get loads of material from my new perspective.

But I know what you mean. It was the last place on Earth I'd want to be normally.

Take care

Anth hanging on the cliffs.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:42:30 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Simple...go in disguise Anth :)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:44:03 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: PS ...how about ANTHea ? (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 22:03:27 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Or 'Mistress Anthrax, Punishment/ Hate to order'
Message:
Whips and rack included. Pay by the hour.

No... I can think of at least six premies who'd recognise me in that outfit.

Anth the Anthea

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:39:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Kelly
Subject: Go gal! Give 'em hell!
Message:
You can't possibly waste such a precious opportunity. Think of the ways you could use such an event for benefits of humanity...

Hi Kelly - nice to see you posting. How you doing?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:27:00 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Go gal! Give 'em hell!
Message:
Hi Nige,
I don't know what you're talking about! Do you mean Plan D? I told you I've given up streaking. But don't let me stop you.
Love Kelly
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:37:36 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Elan Vital just phoned me!
Message:
I got a phone call a little while back now, asking me if I wanted to do service a Nottingham. Upset me for days. Its hard when they just ring you up out of the blue like that. So I hope it didn't upset you to much.

love kev.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 21:35:52 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Elan Vital just phoned me!
Message:
Hi kev,
Thanks for your kind message.
No, I wasn't upset, just rather surprised that I'm not on some sort of blacklist. I can't be trying hard enough.
Kelly
( Karen Ringrose)
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:36:46 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Kelly, you've gotta ask yourself...
Message:
... was that phone call:

a) Lila
b) Grace
c) Maharaji reaching out and touching someone via his omniscient cell phone service
d) WPC UK espionage
e) Coincidence

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 01:41:56 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Just a question..
Message:
I have not been to a program with m. for 12 years. just curious , how much do they charge?
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:18:18 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: It was ' f ' nt
Message:
funt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:03:10 (GMT)
From: jill
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: what's this Pia site everyone is talking about?
Message:
somebody please post the url.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:15:37 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: jill
Subject: Link to it-aint-so from enjoyinglife.org
Message:
There is a link to www.it-aint-so.org from the 'What's new' page at www.enjoyinglife.org. It reads:

Check out 'It ain't so: A call to take a stand.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:23:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: An Idea
Message:
Since the word 'premie' is no longer au courant, at least outside India, technically even the people still following maharaji are 'ex-premies', so why not issue an open invitation to them to participate in this 'ex-premie' forum.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:58:27 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve Q...howdy
Message:
Often times Ive noticed you start a thread and no one responds ....and sometimes it seems no one responds when You write within a thread ( and all that could be just my imagination ! ) .....but I just wanna say I appreciate you hanging around here ...and read your posts and think you add to the rainbow of talent here : ))

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:51:37 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: jill
Subject: Best thing since Rawat's mustache-NT
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:12:45 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: jill
Subject: what's this Pia site everyone is talking about?
Message:
WWW.it-aint-so.org is it. It's a site done by a long time premie, Pia, who is dying of cancer and wants to go out fighting the evil exes. Or she (and her 2 volenteer assistants) may be a front for m, as some exes have already decided they believe. I don't buy that, myself, but if she's not a front her site is certainly sanctioned (albeit maybe grudgingly), as is shown by the pop up that comes up as her site opens, offering to redirect you to official pages.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:09:09 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: jill
Subject: what's this Pia site everyone is talking about?
Message:
Hi Jill -
Here is the URL - I am not good at making links that work:

http://it-aint-so.org/

TC,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:59:39 (GMT)
From: martha
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: if you can't hate your best friend, than who?
Message:
people think hate is the opposite of Love. wrong. the opposite of attraction is repulsion. Love incorporates both. the opposite of hate is lust. that's the only reason you can have Love on a street called Haight.
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 01:54:43 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: martha
Subject: Go away......You're sickeningly brainwashed(nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:53:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: martha
Subject: And your point is..?
Message:
Anyway, I would have said the opposite of love is indifference.
As to the idea that hate is the opposite of lust, that's just plain silly, IMO.

How does any of this relate to Mr Goldenballs and his gift of Porridge?

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 16:13:07 (GMT)
From: martha
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: And your point is..?
Message:
if it's not obvious to you, meditate and think about it.
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 23:18:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: martha
Subject: 'meditate and think..?!!'
Message:
Hmm.. Did someone change the rules?

And will hate become the opposite of lust if I start practising? I bloody well hope not.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:31:16 (GMT)
From: Goldenballs
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: you will know when you eat one of my balls
Message:
Oops, I mean Porridge, that love and balls don't mix.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:10:21 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Jim and Gerry, from innactive.Before leaving
Message:
Date: Sat, Jun 02, 2001 at 11:40:44
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let' s ask her
Message:
Silvia did you mean to say Pia's cancer was caused by being a premie?

Jim, I don't see how you can separate the mental and emotion components of disease from the physical. That is unscientific.

Have you read this book yet? I heard of it somewhere and was wondering if you had seen it or read it. I don't get from the reviews that the book is going to shed much light on the origin of AIDS. It looks like it talks about the mutability of the virus which is not in dispute here.

JIM:Look, the woman's got cancer, for god's sake! She says she's dying. Who are we to start telling her she got her cancer from being a premie? It's a stupid idea, entirely offensive and unnecessary.

Gerry:I agree it would be awful to tell Pia she has cancer because of her belief in rawat's 'specialness.' Please don't even hint that I think this way, or would say this to her, or this conversation is over.

My answer to what you say Jim and to Gerry's question:

I have tried hard since I came to this forum to stay ON TOPIC (CHUCHISHI) and preferred not to disclose my intimate personal belief system I have at this time, one to cope with all in and out of me, but I stand in what I'm interested in: Nature talk. Yes Jim, I think TODAY there is SOMETHING that is totally beautiful and it's inside of me, inside everyone. I didn't want to disclose before my love for what has been interpret here before as 'new age crap' because I don't like to get into stupid arguments. I believe many things that if I mention them probably we could stop being 'friends'. Would scarry if I tell you...
We all are very incredible beings IMO in the sense taht we share in us the sparkle of life, from that infinite pool which I have no words to describe it. I can't but I feel it. Several studies have been done, I can't quote none for lack of time, also, I lend someone a health book, don't have it, is called Prescription for Nutritional Healing, by James Balch and have read in the net a lot of stuff on the subject and it makes sense to me. We all know well there are all kind of different schools of thought, Balch seems to be a naturist. I buy that, I do.

Yes, garry. I ment to say that repressed bad emotions and living in LIES can cause a person to deteriorate their health in many ways, even to get cancer...I know too many premies who are sick, I was sick myself and I'm soooo much better. I'm out to school soon to taste my healing powers. My hands are magic and have helped many people. Take it for what is worth. Oh, I do it just for love to my fellow human beings. I can manipulate from the outside people's energy. Jim, don't bother to respond. I love you but I don't want to discuss this here any further. Ce la vie

I detest maharaji with all my heart.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:24:04 (GMT)
From: BTW
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Jim and Gerry, I read today
Message:
your posts. I was busy yesterday and did not check back on that thread; I wasn't avoiding questions you guys, sorry for the time you lost talking about what I believe.

I love u 2!!

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:55:32 (GMT)
From: Scot Jamieson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Sunday Times Post - to Michele D. and all
Message:
Having been invited by FA to put up my Journey, and feeling like doing so while reading all the kindred-spirit posts of Michele Deradune, I now give you a big excerpt. Sorry about the Quantity, Steve!

On March 14, 2001, I visited this site for the first time. On my new iMac, via my new internet service set-up. I was learning how to add web sites to my Favorites file. For example, Maharaji.org. I had no intention of adding this one. I realized, “This must be the infamous Jim Heller site.” (I was with him in a couple of ashrams for more than a couple of years. I felt we knew each other fairly well.)

“Michael Dettmers - oh yeah, I remember him,” I thought, as I clicked on his name on the home page. A couple of days later, I wrote DETTMERS DETTONATIONS (sic) on the March 14th square in my appointment book. It was the 16th before I could sleep again. Then again, I like staying up all night sometimes.

About Maharaji’s personal life, over the 27 years since I received Knowledge, (mahatma Jagdeo) I had heard very little: some tales, on the order of “ Maharaji ate a steak, and it blew a lot of concepts,” but they always seemed to be a trivial part of the banquet that was my experience With Knowledge & Maharaji. “He could have had any number of women he wanted, but he’s always been true to Marilyn.” That’s another of the Divine Gossip items with which I was favored. It’s always been the very iffy side of what, for me, has indeed been Maharaji’s World. I mean, the Knowledge, the inspiration from Maharaji, has always seemed far removed from the ceaseless Jerry Springer consciousness we humans appear to adore. On the other hand, the dirt is where you find your roots.

So what do I have, could I have to say about something that has been at the core of my life for about half the length of my life? Remembering all the years of Knowledge, I get such a sense of the Maya that is the past. From it can anyone can get a straight answer? There is so much background, context - so many shifting perspectives about even eye-witness events. I was part of a brawl in an all night restaurant once. We all went to trial, and of the 7 eye witnesses who told their tales, no two told the same story. We all told “the truth”, though, I believe. And for Maharaji and his world, it’s increased beyond any capacity of mine, at least, to track the whole process back, to make sense of it. Overviews are not really my turf. I let them pass.

But we can share our journeys, that we can do. And I don’t mind sharing some of mine with you. I’ve been a good “lurker” on the site for a couple of months, and you have touched me with your humanity. “Getting Knowledge” is personal, and this comes alive here often enough, where you can talk openly. I don’t seem able to declare myself as anti-Maharaji. But I am pro free speech. Though I’m disinclined to come out with any scathing condemnations, I can understand how some people need to get them off their chests.

A very enlightened guy - and I highly recommend his books (“Shaking out the Spirits” and “Everyday Soul”) - named Bradford Keeney has given me his permission to quote him on this site. These words should mean something to anyone who was able at least once to gamble their hearts on Knowledge and Maharaji :

“Whenever you catch yourself judging another person or yourself, you are not seeing through your heart. Try to find something about the other person that brings your heart back into your viewing. Perhaps you need to imagine them as they were as a child or as they will be as an elder. Can you see them with their own children or as a starving person desperately needing some food and water?

. . . “Seeing with your heart is an essential part of soulful living. It brings us into the deepest rhythms of everyday soul. It is not possible to bring forth deep matters of the soul unless you learn to see more heartfully. One of the most powerful guides to heartful seeing is to carry an awareness of the inevitability of everyone’s death. You and everyone you meet will die someday and remembering this fact can be a strong wake-up call to feel differently about how we relate to one another. Given that our time on earth is precious and limited, how can we afford not to see through our Hearts? Is there time to waste on heartless observation when our time with one another is so brief?”

For my own sake, I feel it is better to include the heart in the way I see anyone, surely. Here maybe I speak as a PNIAWAM (Premie Not In Any Way Around Maharaji.) I always felt OK about my longish distance from the locus of M power-ment. Jesus’ parable about being called to the head table at the banquet was on my mind sometimes. Its moral: it’s better to wait and be called up, rather than go there and maybe be asked to step down. I was a community coordinator for a couple of years, but that was because the community was electing a coordinator (it was the crazy year of ‘76) and some members begged me to put my name in the hat, to avoid some other candidates being elected, I believe.

I mean, the whole damn adventure has this gloriously hilarious side to it. God, there were such laughs! I was, in fact, asked to step down from the banquet head table. I wasn’t a company man, so far as my hierarchic superiors were concerned. I failed to keep a document of every precious letter from Toronto, for God’s sake! I got so used to the back, perhaps the second row from the back, seats at the programs, that I used to feel that Ji and I had the same perspective, that of the whole crowd in front of us, and so he was in that sense drawing me near. That’s kind of beautiful, now that I think of it. Bliss is maybe foolish, devotion is foolish, but it’s not really what you could call ugly.

And so I post : some of my journal entries, as raw as they were when first written down. They comprise a portrait of a long standing premie’s thoughts as they encounter the facts on this site and attempt to deal with them. People can draw their own conclusions from these entries. This includes my friends who are still in Maharaji’s world, who visit here from time to time perhaps recalling the days when there was a more democratic - well, the word forum comes to mind - for the “company of truth.”

Monday, Oct 18, 1999

In my last journal I taped a letter I wrote to Maharaji but didn’t send. I should like to write another letter. This time I’m writing it in the book, because I don’t imagine I’ll send it.

Dear Maharaji,

You are inviting me to “participate” - by sending money. O familiar invitation! Everyone does this for me. But I am not a good money-earner. You invite me to come to Australia - but, as my friend Greg M. said last night, “If I save $100 each month for a year, I don’t have enough for even the air fare.”

Ah, Maharaji, you are moving beyond me and I doubt if I can keep up. I am excluded - by your plans or by my poverty, I don’t know. Or by my lack of inspiration.

My wife Norma says, “We do what we can do. If Amaroo is beyond us, don’t worry about it.” A good attitude. Maybe. Maybe a better one is,”how can I earn more money?” And, “How can I get down there, support myself, and give free labor?”
If I were a devotee - but that doesn’t make sense. If devotion were “okay” why is it “hidden”? (Inside the aspirant programs, the introductory videos, the don’t-say -anything, just-hand-them-the-videos instructions.) You don’t trust us for anything, but we are supposed to trust you in everything. Well, it is a unique relationship. If you hadn’t closed the ashrams, would I still be in one? I don’t know. Now I am old, and my possibilities are not the same. Do I still have enough energy to fail and succeed, or am I only able to retire?

One thing I can say - as a devotee: the intensity of love has no concern for respectability. It should have no concern for respectability.

March 14 - 2 AM - Near the ides, methinks.

Just read the Ex-Premies’ web site. All the Dettmers revelations about Maharaji’s alcoholism, sexual promiscuity, personal lack of responsibility, etc.

5:45 AM - I’m in shock, I guess. Haven’t slept all night. I’m going out for a walk or a bike ride. Do I have anything to write now? Ah, no . . .

Saturday, March 17

A guy named Scot - can I count on him? As opposed to a guy named Maharaji? You assume, gentle reader, that the answer will be “yes?” I don’t.

First, I failed to discount my friends’ advice that I return to hear more “satsang’ at the “center.” But, people I like, I let them influence me. And I tend to like some fairly crazy people. Like Jack Kerouac says, they’re the interesting ones, after all. Still, today, am I influenced by friends? To some extent, yeah. Like Joe Cocker said, “If someone told me sincerely enough to put my head in that toilet, I’d do it.” But once I was in Maharaji’s world - having kissed his feet on my knees - what LOVE, what love we shared, the premies and I. Night after night after night, for years. God help me, I’d gladly do it all again.

Of everyone there, some were okay with it, some were the occasional sour grape, but many as full of the wine of bliss as I was. “Dead drunk in the divine madness,” as Charnanand used to say. And Charnanand? I remember seeing him surrounded by adoring “gopies” in Quebec. I was right there in “his” house. (“Borrowed” for his visit.) and to me it seemed to be quite innocent - no plonking going on, just much bliss. But can anyone say for sure? Jag Deo - what are the details with him? Various (some) mahatmas falling in love or just getting it on . . . and me? Yeah, I’ve fallen in love, but I didn’t and don’t “break rules.” Should I break rules? Would that show a more advanced consciousness? Am I “inhibited?” Need to “break free?”

“Control your mind - you CAN’T”, Maharaji has said recently. “Go by the FEELING.” Good advice. The feeling is not good, my old master. Should I simply forgive you for your sins? But you aren’t asking, you’re skipping mentioning them. And I’m skipping mentioning you. The ointment, with its few flies, stinks.

It’s over. Can I believe that? I’ve been living in his world for so, so long. His world, like Charnanand’s house, is only borrowed. From the inhabitants of it is it borrowed.
Time to go to bed - I’m sleepy, nodding off and twitching awake. . .

You think a spirit can’t die? It can! It can die drowning in the senses. Mine can, anyway. Maybe there are some spirits that have special privileges, but mine doesn’t. “Beware of those who kill the soul, “ says Jesus. Not to get an ego about it - I am guilty of all Maharaji is accused of, in the sense that I have a human mind, and it is omni-guilty. Who claims to be virtuous is delusional. But as we renounce those senses, we are naturally left with pure spirit. And we can love that pure spirit, and it doesn’t judge us. We judge everything, including our sensual selves, our spiritual selves, even our judging selves. Hell is like Heaven - you don’t need to die to get there, either.

Sunday, March 18

Not long after Maharaji’s wedding, I was surprised to see a film of the marriage ceremony playing in a tent at a festival. Because, what did it have to do with satsang, service, meditation? But I sat down, and the beauty of it was very touching. Thinking of that long ago day now, it isn’t possible for me to not hear the faint, sad music of mortality playing. For all of us. His personal life - he shared it when he didn’t have to. Now he doesn’t want to share it? That’s his business. But mine is to know what I’m doing, and if I’m following someone, to know him, to understand.

I remember Kissinger talking about Nixon’s last day in office - a very busy day for Kissinger. But he put aside everything in the end, just to feel the personal tragedy of his president, of the human tragedy there. Maharaji, I used to send prayers to you. No more. But I will pray for you. For you and us all.

I don’t have dry eyes as I write, Maharaji, I loved you. I meant Arti when I sang it. But now it’s over. O yeah.

The stuff in your world I despise - the elitism, the slickness, the top-down orientation - you seem to be going for it more and more. I liked you when you said,”This world is a cult!” which it is indeed. But you’re not saying that now - oh, I don’t know -it’s your life.
It’s not that I need to do anything. I heard that little “click,” like a ripe mango detaching itself from its stem and settling into your hand, only this time the click was the coupling between your train engine and my caboose. After more and more separation the last 4 days, I notice that I am not actually a caboose. I am an engine. And I notice I’m pulling something - it’s Maharaji. (Well, part of his baggage, anyway.) Hear that second click? Now the baggage is getting a bit further off. And it’ll keep doing so.

Thanks for this, and no thanks, Maharaji. And thanks for that open door. And I’ll tell anyone, it is truly open. I respect that.

Tuesday, March 20
It’s the standing on my own that I have to warm up to. Is it a matter of believing in myself? Have I believed in myself? In a way, no. In a way, yes. Have I felt good about myself? That’s a better question. Right now I feel the need for physical maintenance, for feeling good about myself physically. I am feeling pain in my abs, pain in my jaw, neck, shoulders, back, legs, arms - if I think about it. I am tired. Sleepy. Talked to Irma about my new stance toward Maharaji - she seemed much affected. I prayed for her afterward. She’s a staunch supporter like I was. I don’t feel like condemning Maharaji, or joining his critics on the web - not just yet, anyway. The critics’ tone is often glib - not all the individuals there, but some. I guess that’s the point, the variety of individual expression. But joining them doesn’t give me what I long for, which is - something to connect with in my heart. Something to focus toward other than money.

Saturday, March 24

This separation. Part, not all, but part of me is still unprepared for the implications of being truly separated from Ji.

What can I say? It must have been Maharaji - who killed the actual-human very very often beautiful satsang but GMJ? I’m sittin’ here to tell ya, videos are not alive, and are no proper substitute for “Wherever 2 or more of you are gathered in my name.” Ji doesn’t get this point of view, it’s all getting smoother and emptier, and that’s the way he wants it. And I’ve given him enough time. Well, I don’t know. It doesn’t seem that there was anyone at the wheel if I look back to years ago. And now that there does seem to be someone there, I don’t like it. It’s all one way or the other. But, that’s the deal. You leave your mind and enter the Shelter of Guru’s Grace.

That’s quite a power, isn’t it? To have people give you their minds . . . because everything - body, soul, possessions and abilities come along with that mind.
I guess now I have to believe in myself. And I have to be worthy of that belief. OK!

It’s something to have people really trust you. To really love you. It is a demand for great humility if people actually respect you. You can hurt them by not actually being respectable.

So, to Michael Dettmers, I send respect. And a sincere thank you. Some cold, grey dawn comes to every mother’s child, but the love that includes knowledge of that cold grey dawn is the one you truly need. You may want the love that tells you the sun never sets, but does it get you through the night? Like, love has to realize its own limitations to be real. We do, too.

My heart feels like a bunch of oh so ripe grapes, heavy, shuddering, clinging to the vine by the straining stem. Love! Illusion. Victim of love. Ruined for anything else. How can I trust my own heart? Do I have a choice? If I want to feel, it must be my heart which feels. Where is that love which spins the cosmos? Love, come with me. I will go with you. Lead me, have mercy. Teach me to be true. You are a spirit. Be my spirit. Be mine forever. Let no consideration separate us. Take me up, cover me over, hush me down, light me on. Spirit of love, let me serve you. Give me love and I will return it. May I never shut down a heart. Let me love. Lead me. Love, let me go with you.


Sunday, April 1

I don’t feel screwed up by Knowledge, I feel blessed. And by Ji. That is what I feel. But these charges against him, specifically the Dettmers charges, but the many others behind Dettmers also, how can I dismiss them, or verify them, for that matter?
But I don’t have to even have looked at the Dettmers charges to feel like leaving. Ji was a really, really big deal for me, but now? No satsang, or community, no devotion, or, worse, devotion hidden away like a dirty secret? It’s over.

Dettmers defense of himself - why he didn’t tell everyone the real truth about Ji - was a real killer for me. “The atmosphere” (I’m paraphrasing) “around Maharaji was isolating and everyone was afraid of losing his job and Maharaji always reminded everybody of this fact, that there were 20 in the wings waiting to replace anyone around him.” Dettmers was working 7 day weeks with 18 hour days and was too tired to step back and get a good big-picture take on the scene. Ji drinking, smoking cigarettes and dope, and having affairs: this he already convincingly testified about earlier.

I think of the love in a darshan line, so thick you could pinch it, bounce in it - ah! But that could happen many places, I suppose: Jehovah’s Witness meetings, AAA meetings, mosh pits? Visit of the Pope? Kissing of the black stone at the Ka’aba?

So easy it is for me to lose my way. But I’m not going to lose my way. The spirit of Love I found in Knowledge, with Ji - I’m taking that with me, even as I depart from Maharaji’s camp. And Knowledge is mine. Ji himself has never said it wasn’t.

And what about joining the Ji - trashers on the net? I feel to not join them. They have it wrong, so many of them . . . well, no, I can maybe understand their bitterness. But I’m leaving my own way. Not anyone else’s. Not Heller’s. He could probably use a bit of help getting over his “crusade.” Well, I might call him. But his tone is all wrong for me. I can’t go from devotion, deep love, to vitriolic frenzy in one breath.

But I’m tired of being isolated. And having the knowledge and using it is incredibly isolating, like Annie said in her post against the trashers. I feel like talking. To someone out of the loops - look out Jackie! Sacral cranial appointment on Wednesday. No, I don’t like the hypocrisy of Ji, multiple sex liaisons, etc. No . . .
I’m going for a good bike ride, and then come back and - I don’t know. I don’t know. Some days, you have to take it 1 hour at a time . . .

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:34:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: Peace and bliss is NOT satguru
Message:
Scot:

If you want to see some of us at our 'love filled' best -- go to this thread and follow it on down. Trashing is only one of our sports here. We like love-ins too, especially ones WITHOUT guru.

Love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 22:15:30 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Peace and bliss is NOT satguru
Message:
Yeah, the Latvians sound like a great group. I do not think of the exes as hate oriented. (We) are individuals, ranging from mellow to dangerous in our attitudes toward M. As for me, I can well believe it'll take years before I settle on a more or less steady view of him. It's a big number for me. I can say, though, I already feel better about myself than I thought I would when I first read the Ex news. That news will hit a person's self respect, if they identify with M. And who in his world doesn't identify with him?
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 00:42:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: I admire you for your bravery
Message:
... and I'm glad to have you on the Forum. We have all had/have our processes. My worst potboilers were during the family feud (I was on the monmot Bhole Ji/Satpal/Mata Ji side for a good year or so of that one), and then the last year in the ashram, before I moved out in the spring of 1982.

I was exremely suicidal when I was facing up to all of this back in my ending days of ashram life -- at least suicidal ideations were present. I used to pray in the cockles of my heart to die in my sleep. Rising up from the ashes of those series of 'deaths' in a metaphorical sense -- the deaths of concepts and ideas -- was an empowering and exhilarating experience. I have never been that depressed since, not even remotely that depressed. That was 19 years ago, and I'm glad I kicked the Maharaji habit. However, I did not really start to exit the cult until 1985.

As you can see from my participation on the Forum, I am still processing to this day, so go easy on yourself but don't wimp out!

Love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:13:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: Trashers
Message:
Scot:

Great, honest post. What you have to understand is that there are many people on this forum who are not recent exes. So we didn't go from devotion to trashing. I was pretty much out of the cult since 1985-86, although I went to a few programs, and even gave a few donations, up until 1994, although I wasn't practicing K.

The insidious roots of thinking that he is doing a 'good thing' were with me for a long while. Kind of like my sisters and brother who didn't reject the Catholic church right away because they were feeling things out, and didn't want to burn their bridges. I guess what you're going to have to understand, or perhaps I'd like you to understand is that 'the trashers' come in many categories: some are angry, and they will get over it; and some like to laugh at pathetics fools who they willingly gave their power over to. I couldn't believe how far the hooks were still in me until I started posting on the forum.

'Love' and 'hearts' is squishy stuff, and means different things to different people. As soon as I stopped attributing my experiences in meditation or otherwise to M he was unnecessary. I'm sure I still bear some resentment for my friends and family who seems to leave their brains behind and continue to follow him.

And when I trash him, I don't feel the least bit bad about it. He can take care of himself, and does it hansomely. Different people have different reactions to events in their lives. Some get angry, some whine in corners, some pine and sigh, some sit and cry. They're all just emotions, and none are more valid than any other.

Another thing that struck me was your stuff about 'judging.' There's a fine line between judging and seeing things for what they are. We cross back and forth over it all the time. Some stuff is self-serving baloney, and some people are bad and harm others. It doesn't mean you don't feel compassion for bad people, or understand that they are seeking happiness just like you are. But it doesn't mean that if their idea of happiness comes at your expense, you can't get out of harm's way and see what they are doing to you.

Namaste, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 16:46:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: Well you learn something every day
Message:
I think of the love in a darshan line, so thick you could pinch it, bounce in it - ah! But that could happen many places, I suppose: Jehovah’s Witness meetings, AAA meetings, mosh pits? Visit of the Pope? Kissing of the black stone at the Ka’aba?

I have to admit, although I've been an auto club member for years now, both AAA in the states and CAA here in Canada, I never felt the love. I'd just go in there, get my maps or whatever. Sometimes I buy insurance there. Think I even got a passport picture done last time. But no .... hm... actually, now that I think of it, I remember Laurie and I were kind of in a bouncy, good mood the very last time we dropped in. I guess you could say there was love there. I felt something alright. But then that wasn't really in the buidling, it was more in the parking lot. Hm... maybe love was all around the place. Not sure. Gonna have to stop by again sometime. Sure glad I didn't let my membership lapse, though.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:25:49 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: AAA meetings-as in, Alcoholics Anonymous.
Message:
Uh-oh - one too many As. Not American Automobile Association, but who knows, maybe on a some full moon night in Spring, some of those automobile associations really tune in to the full cosmic blissride . . . what's an A between fellow Canadians, eh?
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:16:42 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, Jim, was it toooo repugnant for you? OT
Message:
I see taht you wrote here but ignore my post. I asnwer what you wrote in inactive. Sorry that you cannot understand that SOME people have different experiences than you. Life is full of surprises.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:28:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Get a grip, Silvia
Message:
Silvia,

What in the world ......?

You ended that post with:

Jim, don't bother to respond. I love you but I don't want to discuss this here any further. Ce la vie

and now you blame me for not replying?

If you want my real opinion, you've already got it. Frankly, I'm appalled at the way you'd throw this woman's cancer at her as if she got it at a program. But I wasn't going to talk with you anymore about it because, not only had I already said as much but also, you'd specifically asked to let it got and I thought 'what's the use?' If you can't see why saying that is unnecessarily callous, so be it.

So which is it? Talk about it or leave it go? Your call.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 21:49:55 (GMT)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This what I agree with of Sandy's post Jim
Message:
In answer to why we don't all have cancer...proximity to the thing causing it, genetic history, environment, karma in the practical sense of cause and effect, diet and personal lifestyle, individual tenacity to fight off disease...

I ask if what I said was (ironic) repugnat was because I saw you post HERE (look time of posts)and you didn't say a word. What I said, in toooo few words is taht I didn't want to discuss nature with you. I wrote this post to you. I get it; I need to learn to write more because it sounds like something else, I get it now that I reread it.

Look, I don't sit by the PC all the time. I do what I have to do and once in a while I see what is going on here, you know how badly I love my master, anyway, and sometimes I write quick, in the middle of 'fighting' with my son to use it, so, I wrote quick, and I didn't mean to offend Pia AT ALL or make fun of her illness and for you to think I did, well, you don't know me. Go ahead and talk, scream all you want. I got my turn also, like many here. But Don't put words in my mouth. I insinuated that because I know around here, my city, (want names?) toooooo many premies who are sick I , I, I, I made a correlation that maharaji, NOT K, may be to be blamed for our health problems with his insidious way of teaching a person to get 'in touch with their hearts'.

You have been away and I got to say very personal shit of mine and you just got back from your trip, you may or not know but premies here called me few things when I was asking what type of compassion for others the premies have, none. Pia's post came after I was alrady responding to the premies. Premies seem to believe of themselves as loving-loving people and as facts show well, studies, a person in a cult becomes an extrange being, read, uncapable to love in a responsible manner which REAL love knows how. No, I don't blame Pia for getting cancer HERSELF for following maharaji Jim. I don't. Blame MAHARAJI, A.K.A., Prempla Rawat, captain of hell.

Maharaji IMO is to blame by now of the damage he inflicted upon some of us, directlly and indirectly through his videos and his inmediate helpers. His videos influenced my life to the point of becoming loonie: My service as Aspirant Contact, for SEVERAL YEARS, really fried my brain, filled it up with garbage, having to learn BY HEART what the videos were about to manipulate the minds of the aspirants at each stage, to create the magic in their heads. I don't know the real terms to explain it well, but basically through Elan Vital (premie Judy Olman, manager of the aspirants contacts in the U.S.) I was connected with other premies to learn how to do it. Papers that Charanand and others revised for us to know what video was appropiate for every stage of the aspirant process before asking for K(JM put them online)were sent to me, videos were color coded by us, as directed (suggested-his wish is an order)to be synchronized, read manipulated to conform(for what I know everybody was doing it) to be able to find them fast when people borrow them from our city video library. So, premies, you can come and call me crazy woman, but mahariachi is a bad, bad wolf. And yes, once more, premie's eyes are sad, something missing, MO. Pia dying of cancer or anybody who says they are happy for real need to be told to reconsider, but hey, that is me. My thing. BTW, I took care of a premie from my area for several months, 7-8 until she finally died, her name was Sheryl Derian, and she died a painful frightening death because according to here she had to comeback to Earth because she died without understanding what K was. Yes, I have a passion now to fight him, more than ever.

Jim, I explained to you, even that I know I didn't have to, I wanted to say it. Fuck the bastard, I'm coming after him to deffend my rights and fight for a similar law than the one passed in France. I know TV and Radio people in my country and I may not have at first luck here but I'll do it there first and go from there. I hope this satisfy your curiosity and shame on you for thinking I'm twisted like that. You said heavy unnecesary words IMO.

Have fun. Life is gooood!! :)

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:59:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim and Sylvia
Subject: Now that I've thought about it...
Message:
I believe Sylvia is probably correct. Emotions and mental states can cause disease, including cancer. Being in a cult could indeed make a person physically ill.

That doesn't mean this is what happened to Pia, but I can easily understand how Silvia could make this connection.

What is so hard-hearted about saying this? It certainly doesn't make me feel any less sympathy for Pia. In fact the opposite is true.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:33:27 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: reply to: Now that I've thought about it.
Message:
I caught Hepatitus C because of some of my behaviors while a practising alcoholic/addict. If someone came along and told me m/k, which I had given so many years of my life to somehow led to my catching it(which would be total BS in this example) it would devastate me if I bought into it. To throw a sugestion like that at someone suffering from a serious malady, unless as preface to some potential solution which understanding the sugestion is needed as a preface or something, is so calous it borders on abusive. Discussing the possibility here is just discusion.

Clear now, gerry?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:04:18 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: clh
Subject: clh, sorry to hear that (sorta ot)
Message:
I have two friends who have Hepatitis C. It's very hard to live with. I hope yours is dormant, and possibly one of the forms that is potentially curable.

Re M and K causing illness, I don't buy it at all - although I agree with Gerry that stress of any kind can weaken the immune system and make someone more prone to serious illness.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:46:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: clh, sorry to hear that (sorta ot)
Message:
I have two friends who have Hepatitis C. It's very hard to live with. I hope yours is dormant, and possibly one of the forms that is potentially curable.

You're right. It's no cakewalk.

Re M and K causing illness, I don't buy it at all - although I agree with Gerry that stress of any kind can weaken the immune system and make someone more prone to serious illness.

I think that believing in--and trying to live up to the insane demands and cognitive dissonance imposed by the cult--could be a contibuting causal component to disease. Of course anything is possible, but is it probable? I think so.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:23:15 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I agree with you, Katie. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:56:44 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: clh
Subject: reply to: Now that I've thought about it.
Message:
Well, kinda clear, kinda foggy.

Are you saying that discussion...I'm sorry clh, I guess I'm not clear on what you are saying.

It's pretty certain that stress and tension (mental states with a physical component) are contributory factors in disease, heart disease immediately comes to mind.

To throw a sugestion like that at someone suffering from a serious malady, unless as preface to some potential solution which understanding the sugestion is needed as a preface or something, is so calous it borders on abusive. Discussing the possibility here is just discusion.

I agree. Were Silvia or anyone to say to Pia: 'Oh, you caused your cancer yourself because you believe in Maharaji's cult,' yes, that would be callous and abusive.

To discuss the idea that stressful living conditions (such as being in M's cult) can be detrimental to one's health is not callous or abusive.

We are willing to believe that the cult mindfuck contributed to peoples' depression and mental problems even to the point of suicide but we can't consider that the same dynamics could contibute to physical illness? Why not?

clh, would you mind dropping me an e-mail sometime?

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:49:09 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: you are pretty clear, gerry, from what I just
Message:
read. It seemed to me silvia was advocating confronting her with her disease source theory, which would have been abusive, while you were just discussing it, which is not.

Incidently, slivia, if I misunderstood your intentions please let me know and I'll be happy to apologize.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:31:19 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: Thanks, Scot!
Message:
Believe me, no problem about posting it on the forum. In fact, I suspect that some people ONLY read the forum, not the site (unfortunately).

You write very well, and I think a lot of 'fence-sitters' will be able to relate to what you have to say. I get a sense of your Journey as a work in progress - but I like the way you have documented your thought processes day by day.

Take care -
Katie H

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:15:04 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: But Scott, Brian used the space to post it bellow
Message:
If I was you I would ask FA to erase yours.

I'll read it later. I saved it.Thanks.

We were dupped alright!

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:59:55 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Scot Jamieson
Subject: Post -syncronicity is a pain, sometimes! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 02:23:37 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: epton@magma.ca
To: Scot J
Subject: Scot, could you e-mail me pls (nt)
Message:
thanks
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:12:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Scot J--very moving and poetic, thanks, (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:48:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's what I wrote to Pia
Message:
Why do you have to defend Maharaji? Surely he's quite capable of doing this himself. Your site is all about Maharaji and therefore I feel it is counterproductive to Maharaji's mission.

Why? Because it shows that this whole trip is just about master worship and nothing else. There is no other person - just Maharaji and unless people somehow feel something for Maharaji, the whole trip will fail to attract anyone.

But in my mind, this is why Maharaji's mission is on the decline - it's too much about him. Putting it another way; if you base your whole organisation or mission upon one person, it can fail because that person can be torn to shreds by bad publicity.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 15:15:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: 'William Strait, staff'
Message:
Something that I've wondered about, and Stonor saw the same thing: If Pia and friends are just an independant group of individuals, then why is William Stait referred to as 'staff' on the Current Focus - Editorial page? There is also a 'Staff Articles' page with one 'Article' from WS (William Strait).

See staff
...
3.a. A group of assistants to a manager, executive, or other person in authority.
3.c. The personnel who carry out a specific enterprise: the nursing staff of a hospital.

Nobody on this forum is referred to as 'staff', and yet Elan Vital fabricates the ficticious entity called the 'Ex-Premies Organization'. But William Strait is referred to as 'staff', still they claim to be just an independant group of people helping out 'Maharaji' (real name Prem Rawat).

Now legally the 'staff' who put together the it-aint-so.org web site may not officially represent Rawat, but this claim of independance is unbelievable.

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 03:39:22 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: G
Subject: Does anyone know William Strait?
Message:
Can you tell us who he is?
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:40:32 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Does anyone know William Strait?
Message:
I wonder if this is the same person as 'Mr. Williams', a PWK who has posted here a few times recently. William S. = WilliamS
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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 03:29:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: William, strait staff
Message:
I don't know him, but here's a meaning of 'strait' I wasn't clear on, from a 'satsang' called ENTER AT THE STRAIT GATE at a Kirpal Singh website:

''Strait,' as given in the King James Version of the Bible, has the same meaning as 'narrow' in modern English.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:34:40 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: New Journey online
Message:
I put Scot Jamieson's Journey online today. You'll find it here.
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 20:39:47 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Scot
Subject: 'Shadowy and fearful soul disaster'
Message:
The sombre fact that underlies the bliss of a devoted premie, like certain death underlies the joy of birth, is that disaster for the soul.

Those awful swings and swoops as your world flies right again after you reaffirm your devotion to that bond, only to plummet again. How long will a person endure this without breaking the Rawat imposed silence and isolation, and seek the company of others? The answer to this question is expressed in bitterness.

I don't have a problem with bitterness, as any good cook will tell you, it balances the dish and aids digestion.

The bit where you wrote about being 'dedication worthy' brought tears to my eyes, from the perspective I have now, I don't know whether to laugh or cry, or yet, feel disgusted at the thought that Maharaji has become what he is today, a big fat fake, by feeding on the vulnerability of others.

I am modelling a lifesize bust of myself aged ten or twelve, at the moment, it is my way of saying sorry to myself. Best regards, from another 27yrer.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 19:09:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, Brian, and Scot Jamieson
Message:
Thank you Scot for letting us see your journals, your Journey towards freedom. You say that you have to leave M in your own way and not in any way prescribed by other exes. Absolutely!

We also have to find our own individual destinations as we move away. I just hope that I will go part of that way with you because I know I will enjoy your company. Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:44:39 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Know that
Message:
even that I posted bellow I'm leaving I will continue doing my spanish thing. I hope you are doing good in your recovery.

I love you guys!!

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 18:22:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Welcome back Silvia.
Message:
Hope you had a good break and are ready for some more cyber-forum-action.

Anth the sarcy sod

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Date: Mon, Jun 04, 2001 at 06:17:29 (GMT)
From: ~Silvia~
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: hahahahaaha, I'm going to sleep in few minutes
Message:
Jim thinks he can stop everybody from believing ANYTHING just by 'pumping' and answering his post (I erased it by mistake, looking at a diccionary aughhhahahahaha)I haven't had a chance to live, yet. Now I'm done. I'm not answering again. bye, Chau.

I'll be back, with my pistols ready. You never know who is going to show up. hahahahaha good night. ;)

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:24:56 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I am out of here for a while
Message:
Bye everybody. Have tons of things to do.

Good 'luck' to everyone, including you chuchishi, you're gonna need it. BUT: If YOU surrender to the REAL truth is going to be easy for you.

We want us to talk to us HERE. Goshh maharaji, I went all over the world for you and you cannot come for few minutes and TALK here with me? That shows who you think you are. NEWS: You are not THAT, I assure you.

bye all, :))))

~Silvia~ STRONG, BLUNT, ME, TODAY.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:30:08 (GMT)
From: TO CQ
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: You'll here from me soon (kind of OT-NOT!)
Message:
so we can do the 'job' we talked about. Still don't know how to do it. Selene told me I can. I'll try, if not i'll mail the crap.

love,

silvia

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Date: Tues, Jun 05, 2001 at 20:14:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: TO CQ
Subject: lucky to have caught your post - I've been away(OT
Message:
had an amazingly emotional weekend with long-lost family in London. Lots of posts to catch up with.

Blunt you say you are? Well, sharp tongues get bad press too, so I'll be simply straight with you and say:

stand by for action.

!

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:34:17 (GMT)
From: TYPO
Email: None
To: TO CQ
Subject: here=hear nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 13:53:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: So Much Quantity Here
Message:
Yesterday had to be the busiest day ever on this site. Last fall when I started posting here I noticed weekends were slow - yesterday's volume was about six times the volume of the average Saturday in the fall.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:25:46 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: So Much Quantity Here
Message:
Hi Steve,

Surely you must be mistaken when you say there are so many people here. Why only the other day I read on a certain site which will be nameless that; '' The source of most of the attacks on Maharaji and his work comes from a small group of former students led by several who had positions of major responsibility in the organization. Michael Dettmers, Michael Donner, Jim Heller, and Jean-Michel Kahn.''

BTW The pop-up boxs has now disappeared. Could it be that they are reading us? And also what I think is comical is that the site has now been up for at least three days now and still they haven't got one single post from any premie defending their master.

Kev.

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:37:38 (GMT)
From: ~silvia~ the forum angel
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: papa's links are not ANYMORE at Pia's site?
Message:
Hipocrats. Is like they are waiting to see what we say to change their stories, the ignorants...

bye kev. no need to answer: I wanted others to know.

be well, always,

s

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 17:27:54 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: ~silvia~ the forum angel
Subject: Sorry Silvia I made a mistake.
Message:
The pop-up boxs with the links are still there. I when to the site via my favorites list(not that her site is a favorite of my, just wanted to keep tabs on it)

Anyway I still think it's funny they can't find a single post yet to put of their sit. LOL.

Love Kev

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Date: Sun, Jun 03, 2001 at 14:14:02 (GMT)
From: ~silvia~ the forum angel
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: is the FIRE within-We love truth
Message:
and chuchi is attacking us through his servants.
Hi Steve!!Nice to hear your voice the other day! You sound like a very, very nice smart person!

My love 2 u

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