Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 06:12:05 (GMT)
From: Jun 07, 2001 To: Jun 14, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


cq -:- Satyam eva jayate(Sanskrit:May Truth ever Triumph) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:00:29 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- And it will, it will . . . -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- But the fat man sang at Amaroo LOL n/t -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- ...but only if the information is out there 2 find -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:16:38 (GMT)
__ salam -:- It is so -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:35:06 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Find out why? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Weelll, as you know -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:27:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- I'll have to think about it. Any suggestions? -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:40:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- OK. This is an update -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 07:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey salam sent you some suggestions -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:34:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- It's looking good, Salam - how about this: -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:46:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- will do eventually -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 10:58:27 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- It is so -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- It is so and also to cq -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- aisle seats on Prem Rawat Airways ... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:54:20 (GMT)

Lurker #27 -:- Fly me to the moon -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:50:27 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- OK, here's one that's appropriate -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah....Good One Richard! n/t -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 18:43:05 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- nothing is so bad that somebody,won't love it nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:57:29 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Why don't you come right out and say it? (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:28:01 (GMT)
__ __ Lurker #27 -:- It! Too easy Gregg. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:33:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Too hard for you to talk straight. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:30:14 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Keep Those Quotes Coming -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:16:30 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Keep Those Quotes Coming -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ Lurker #27 -:- How about this one Steve! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- How about this one Steve! and how about this one! -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 03:56:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- How nice to see you, Brian. ... OT (NS?) -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Even better Zappa quote... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yet another Zappa quote... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scot J -:- Cool quotes, cool name.NT -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 01:39:55 (GMT)

Scot J -:- Pilgrim's progress -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:23:50 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Happy belated birthday, Scot - and thanks -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:06:12 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Pilgrim's progress -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:44:21 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Happy B-Day -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:36:36 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Pilgrim's progress--Happy Birthday to You.... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:19:05 (GMT)
__ John Wayne -:- Well happy birthday there pilgrim, this ain't the -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:46:24 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Happy birthday, Pilgrim (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:55:10 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- And a very happy birthday to you, ScotJ -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:53:12 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Happy and sad it's all OK to you! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:38:26 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Being with what is -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:36:22 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Hey, Scottie! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
__ nagual rain -:- Pilgrim's progress -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- 'Be a witness'? You mean silent, right? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Why couldn't you just wish Scot a happy birthday -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:56:45 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Bliss? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:36:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Calling Ghostbusters! nagual rain's a fallin' (nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scot J -:- Thanks guys. NT -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:34:35 (GMT)

Way -:- Maharaji's real message -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:03:52 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Great post, Way: **BEST OF FORUM** nomination -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:15:57 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- cult of master: from free humans to prempuppets -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:03:55 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Excellent post, Way -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:47:18 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Maharaji's real message -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:36:22 (GMT)
__ __ British Bulldog -:- Blimey, just burnt meself on the flamin' filament -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:55:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Filament or gas? You make the call. /nt -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:20:05 (GMT)
__ Been There -:- To Way--Maharaji's real message -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ Steve M -:- To Way--Maharaji's real message -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:36:46 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Contradictions and the 'Excusemaker''... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Another excellent post! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:14:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Been There -:- You don't feed steak to a baby -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Adult individuals are not babies. Crap analogy. nt -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 07:32:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You are so full of shit -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Been There -:- The steak comment was offered by Chuck. -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The steak comment was offered by Chuck. -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Done That -:- Chuck Roast of course..... (nt) -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:34:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- You don't feed steak to a baby -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Deceptive and false advertising -- grasshopper! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- You don't lie to people in order to sell them... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:29:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- So what is the difference between lessons... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Been There -:- I'm too far removed Nige -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Funny, you weren't five minutes ago... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been There (BT) -:- To Nige... Funny, you weren't ... -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Oops! I thought you were a premie, BT... -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Keeping quiet is part of the trap. -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:15:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- And after all of that only a few in hundreds -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:45:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Keeping quiet is part of the trap. -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'clean slate' -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:48:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'clean slate' -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 21:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Thanks, the I-I trip -:- Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:38:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Martin Buber -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 11:46:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- That was a great post, G. So well said... -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Other experiments. -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve M -:- Nice to have you here BT -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:46:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ BT -:- Thanks. Trying again -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- to Been There - working it out in public. -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're fading in and out, Been There -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 08:23:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- You're not that far removed. -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg (been there too) -:- You don't feed prasad to an ignorant heathen -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:57:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- And you don't feed false milk to a baby either -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Been There -:- And you don't feed false milk -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:29:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The Deli Lama -:- You can feed dung to a cow but you won't drink -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Then how do you explain this bullshit? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Been There -:- Don't know how -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's absurd. Complete nonsense -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- and also contradictory -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:48:27 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- The Master of All (well, at least all premies) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:49:35 (GMT)
__ __ Will -:- Worshipping a Degenerate -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You're right nobody in Rawatworld gives a fuck nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:36:45 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- I'm really feeling sorry for Ms. Pia -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:46:37 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- well she thinks she is on a mission -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:45:16 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Regarding the Jagdeo affair -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:44:38 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- FA: Can there be a link to this? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- I hope so -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- This sounds very beaurocratic -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:02:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This sounds very beaurocratic -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It hasn't yet reached the committee stage -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 08:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- It's not this way -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- This is a good sign -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 20:49:46 (GMT)
__ Scot J -:- this is a must-read. Thanks, Dave. NT -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:00:50 (GMT)

Coach -:- Latest EeVee Stuff -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:19:19 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- and then???? -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:56:07 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- They welcome scrutiny? Not from my experience... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Then they would open up their books. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:21:42 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Divine Light Mission???? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:49:05 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- What pathetic crap -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'defamatory allegations' -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:50:54 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Latest EeVee Stuff -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:12:19 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Thanks, Coach -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- Thanks, Coach -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ Alan F. -:- Thanks, Coach -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:46:45 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Excuse me EV Forum Monitor.. What CRAP is this -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:37:05 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- EV is right:My particular expectation was not met. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Exactly la-ex !! nt -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:26:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scot J -:- The medicine of la-ex. Irony-therapy. SO good. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:48:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, ScotJ, la-ex is good for newbies -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:47:11 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Latest EeVee Stuff -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- 'explanation' is a thought stopper -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:58:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks for reminding me -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Meant to say 'expectations' but....(NT) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:04:04 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Nottingham to be 'very special indeed'? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 08:26:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Like the most smitten Deadhead -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Nottingham - will there be darshan? I wonder.. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- I got into trouble once ...... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:00:44 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- J McClean, L Monnier: 'security' taking over! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:42:31 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- J McClean, L Monnier: 'security' taking over! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Security guards:''watch out, they'll fight dirty'' -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:49:44 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- K work, it relaxes me, MAHARAJI is the problem -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- ...MAHARAJI is the problem -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- ...MAHARAJI is the problem AHA!! OT -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- there you are! -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- you are there too! -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 01:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Hell hath no fury.....you're up late -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:09:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- That's written much better than anything else -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Savvy and confident plus balls.... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:28:06 (GMT)
__ __ Michael McDonald -:- That's written much better than anything else -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Michael McDonald, were you X-rated?... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- ''We the people'' means ALL the citizens -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:05:51 (GMT)
__ Alan F. -:- Latest EeVee Stuff -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:54:23 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Latest EeVee Stuff -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 08:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Maybe he was on the psychic friends network -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- Souls singed and burning for love -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yeah, I was guilty of we, we at one time too -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:19:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- ...or Tattoo of Fantasy Island was channelling him -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:59:37 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Anth, this isn't true is it? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- 'Allegation' -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:29:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- this pisses me off too... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 03:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- this pisses me off too... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:50:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- this pisses me off too... -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:06:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thank you for you supprt John -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:35:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Reports to legal authorities -:- Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:59:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- British police are investigating Unity School UK -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 07:29:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That definition's wrong -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- What happened to the public apology? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:26:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- wordsmiths -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I think you're confused a bit, John -:- Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Oh, I dunno Jim ... -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Dear Abi -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:50:33 (GMT)

Michele Deradune -:- Copy of FA's message to me in e-mail (1st para) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:10:07 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- The FAs are EV plants? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:40:55 (GMT)
__ __ barney - the flame nettle -:- Ok, ok, ok! I was a fucking plant -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:13:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ana T -:- Ok, ok, ok! I was a fucking plant -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:51:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Ana, we be bad! All the best to ya! (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:52:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Yeah sack the FAs, they suck -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:55:24 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- you are acting like an idiot -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- you are acting like an idiot -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Salam, I agree. Michele is no phoney. She's real. -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Michele. Please stop being nasty to PatC -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks Salam....................................NT -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:00:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- It's alright -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- It's alright - the guilt and self esteem issue -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:46:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- techie doubts -ot- -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 11:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah damned machines -ot- -:- Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:03:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- aww fuck it (am swearing a lot lately) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- aww fuck it (am swearing a lot lately) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:50:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- of course I need help what is your point? -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Hey, take it easy -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:09:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'm working on it Salam -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- agree -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:38:14 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Let it cook -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:22:58 (GMT)
__ __ Michele Deradune -:- Let it cook -- Yes! And TURN UP THE HEAT -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:53:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Mee-Shell, My Belle, these are words that... -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:17:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Its 'I would do anything for Loaf' . (NT, OT, ) -:- Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:56:50 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:00:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Satyam eva jayate(Sanskrit:May Truth ever Triumph)
Message:

On Pia's 'it ain't so' site (very apt name IMO), check out the following from William Strait 'staff'


'Knowledge has for thirty years been offered freely and without strings attached'.

Oh really? Knowledge was touted as being 'free' since the early days, but even now you have to attend video screenings for several months before you're even considered eligible to receive it. Does that sound like 'no strings' to you?
.
.
.
.
The following quote is almost beyond belief:

'Those who have
known Maharaji over the years know one thing
to be true: he hates mental manipulation and
strongly opposes any form of cultish thinking
within his work. He refuses to advertise, does
not seek publicity, does not seek 'to sell' or
convince people about the validity of what he
offers, teaches no system of beliefs, is a
champion of independent thinking,
and has the
highest standards of integrity regarding each
person's continuing right to choose their
degree of involvement.'

Is this George Orwell's 'newspeak' in action? Might as well call EV the 'Ministry of Love'!
.
.
.

And finally:

it is ...'illegal for Maharaji, or any individual, to profit from a non-profit organization'

Well he HAS profitted from it, hasn't he? How else did he get to lead the obscenely extravagent lifestyle he's had for so many years? He got people to donate, that's how. And they still do.

.
.
.
.

PS - just found this at Pia's site:
'What a relief to come across Maharaji. Who doesn't target the rich to make money'

Is there meant to be a question mark at the end of that?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:48:24 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: And it will, it will . . .
Message:
Especially now, in these times, when people seriously motivated about their involvement with any group activity will have sources and documented information at their finger tips on this and related sites.

Do you think that people in general will increasingly and automatically check into the internet for background info before making big decisions about something that has even the faintest whiff of cultism?

I hope so, and hope that's not only wishful thinking!

For example, recently I was considering investing in an apparently straightforward business venture, but decided to check into it a bit further, SEC reports and other documentation. What I found was that the deeper levels of the management and business connections were ultimately linked to Adnan Khashoggi, arms dealer, who 'loaned' the CEO gobs of money several times. This was fairly easy to find out by a non-expert such as me, and it was in official documents. I declined to be involved.

Point is, anyone with an internet connection and even the slightest degree of curiosity could end up right here as easily as at It Aint So. (Where's the damn apostrophe, anyway?)

(btw, how funny is it that one of EVs satellite mouthpieces is termed IT AINT SO .. ? WHAT 'ain't so'? Hmmmm . . .)

We have this luxury: The historical record, the verbatim utterances, and the unvarnished first-hand experiences are here, not there. EV has to spin so fast to try to maintain control of the perceptions of newbies and aspirants that the effort and strain of dissembling tend to create a distinctive whiff of cover-up and suspicion.

Ain't it so?

Then again, many countries, communities, 'markets', are not as linked to the internet as we are, and certainly not English-speaking. There's the rub. Watch out for teams of Chinese mahatmas (sorry, initiators? instructors? whatever.)

And also, many people tend to join things because a friend or respected other has done so. (It always amused/dismayed me that 'famous' people or the well-to-do were courted and trotted out as trophies.)

It's just getting more interesting all the time. I don't hear the fat lady warming up just yet . . . !

Regards,
C.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:36:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: But the fat man sang at Amaroo LOL n/t
Message:
yowl, howl
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:16:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: ...but only if the information is out there 2 find
Message:
... only if the information is out there to find.

and getting to the truth is what motivated me to become a premie in the first place! Now that it's evident that the Maha has painted himself into a corner where the truth (certainly about his past, if not his present) has become a liability to him (why else would he command that all propagation literature from the early days be destroyed?) what hope can premies have of reconciling their wish to see him as a spiritual 'Master' with the undeniable fact that he tries to be a 'Master Manipulator' of the truth, but only succeeds in revealing himself to be a very BAD liar!


you say:

'EV has to spin so fast to try to maintain control of the perceptions of newbies and aspirants that the effort and strain of dissembling tend to create a distinctive whiff of cover-up and suspicion.'

- boy, does THAT ring bells!

.
.
.

But I guess it's all part and parcel of what being in a cult is all about.

Here's an extract from a post I recently submitted to CD's site:

Part of the nature of a cult is that the initiate doesn't get to discover what the cult is
'offering' until both bait and hook have been well and truly swallowed. Hence M's requirement that several months of preparation (which used to be determined by how many times the aspirant had attended 'satsang', - nowadays it's attendance at video screenings that count) are required before the 'free gift' he claims is his to offer is imparted.

By then the incitement to become dependent on him and the meditation techniques (which he learnt from his father) is effectively implanted in the 'seeker after truth' - and it takes a lot of personal strength to combat the coercion and to see through the convenient haze of devotion that all his other followers throw up to protect what have become their own belief systems.

And beliefs (despite M's and EV's denials) are what the whole trip is based on. Primarily, the belief that the experience of practising the meditation techniques ('knowledge') somehow puts the practitioner in Maharaji's debt.

Ultimately, misguided dependency is the name of the game of all cults. (not forgetting that Christianity began as a cult - and still is, IMO, only it's been around so long it's aquired a respectable name, i.e. religion).

.
.
.
Incidentally, the Oxford English Dictionary has the following definition of the word:

cult, n.
[ad. L. cultus worship (f. colere to attend to, cultivate, respect, etc.), and its F. adaptation culte (1611 Cotgr.). Used in 17th c. (from Latin), and then rarely till the middle of the 19th, when often spelt culte as in French.]
meaning:
† 1. Worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:35:06 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: It is so
Message:
We Told them So
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Find out why?
Message:
I clicked on the 'Find out why' link (which is little hard to see) and it only seemed to refresh the page.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:27:35 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Weelll, as you know
Message:
Pia has all EV to support her, I am only doing this for fun and by myself. Also don't really know what to put. Suggest something and I will do it. You are right, the page links to itself. It's more of a slogan then anything, saves me shouting.

Ask me for 3 things you'd like to see.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:40:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I'll have to think about it. Any suggestions?
Message:
I like the graphics.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 07:57:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: OK. This is an update
Message:
It's coming nice and slow. I just put few things in to for look and feel. A scratch book version. Tell me what you think.

It is very so

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:34:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: hey salam sent you some suggestions
Message:
Your graphics are looking really good.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 14:46:14 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: It's looking good, Salam - how about this:
Message:
ask Jim if you can include his post from the 'My reply to WS (from Pia's site 'staff')' thread. And then there's Helen's reply, and J-M's and ... and ...

Just a thought.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 10:58:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: will do eventually
Message:
Am doing this in whatever spare time I have and really it's a lot of work. The layout of the pages takes a lot of time. However I would like to include material that was sent to Pia and was not published.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:54:51 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: It is so
Message:
But this would be great to put up as a satelite website which the search engines would display right next to pia's. But I would add the krishna-darshan picture. (specially here a picture is worth a thousand words!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:42:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: It is so and also to cq
Message:
Good work salam.
And yeah cq a question mark at the end of that sentence would have been perfect! yeah he doesn't 'target' the rich he just makes special accomadations for them once they are sucked in.
Like good seats - come to think of it though, what IS a good seat? I always looked for an aisle seat so I could get out quick when the videos became unbearable.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:54:20 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: aisle seats on Prem Rawat Airways ...
Message:
barf-bags are purely for personal comfort/hygeine

- but parachutes are the #1 necessity!

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:50:27 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Fly me to the moon
Message:
Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer

'There has been opposition to every innovation in the history of man, with the possible exception of the sword.'
-- Benjamin Dana

'The way of the world is to praise dead saints and prosecute live ones.'
-- Nathaniel Howe

Nothing is so good that somebody, somewhere, will not hate it.
-- Lurker #27

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:07:45 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: OK, here's one that's appropriate
Message:
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
-Blaise Pascal, philosopher and mathematician
(1623-1662)
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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 18:43:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Yeah....Good One Richard! n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:57:29 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: nothing is so bad that somebody,won't love it nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:28:01 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Why don't you come right out and say it? (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:33:23 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: It! Too easy Gregg. (nt)
Message:
agf
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:30:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Too hard for you to talk straight. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:16:30 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Keep Those Quotes Coming
Message:
My favourite of this group is:

'There has been opposition to every innovation in the history of man, with the possible exception of the sword.'
-- Benjamin Dana

Thanks

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:31:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Keep Those Quotes Coming
Message:
quotes? - some good'uns here: http://www.dlc.fi/~jimenez/quo.htm

.
.
.
and if you like the pithier kind, such as:

'A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45'

try http://www.math.unl.edu/~augustyn/godisdead.html

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:24:15 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: How about this one Steve!
Message:
In the future, etiquette will become more and more important. That doesn't mean knowing which fork to pick up -- I mean basic consideration for the rights of other animals (human beings included) and the willingness, whenever practical, to tolerate the other guy's idiosyncrasies.

-- Frank Zappa, The Real Frank Zappa Book

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 03:56:31 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: How about this one Steve! and how about this one!
Message:
You wrote.... I mean basic consideration for the rights of other animals (human beings included) and the willingness, whenever practical, to tolerate the other guy's idiosyncrasies.

Consider this lurker #27, since you seem to be expousing tolerance of others.

We have 'been there and done that with the Guru', and many of us have discarded the notion that M is of any value to us now. Can you tolerate that? The thinnly vieled references to your opinions attached to your posts are transparent as hell. You seem to think M is God or something more than a human being. Good, have at it, you are stuck in your scrap-pile of beliefs and you will most likely stay there, that is your right.

I personally think you are lost and don't know it, but I am willing to tolerate your idiosyncrasies and I have no desire to convince you otherwise.

Who in the hell are you anyway? a petty anonymous insignificant lurker with no name.......

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:18:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: How nice to see you, Brian. ... OT (NS?)
Message:
You tell him. I never could quite figure out how anybody expects respect with a silly moniker. I also can't figure out Mr 27. I would probably want to figure him out if I knew who he was.

I not only believe in ''the rights of other animals (human beings included)'' but I find most other animals (especially humans) fascinating. Actually I'm not a PETA type person and figure when animals start recognizing each other rights (like to life etc) I will.

I have been meaning to email you (which I will soon) to thank you for the CD of your music. Exactly my kind of jazz. It really is perfect (couple of tech imperfections) and I hope to hear it live one day especially if you are accompanied by your beautiful chanteuse, your wife. The two of you are so lovable - well, you stole my heart...I'll save the rest for email.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:52:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Even better Zappa quote...
Message:
'Rock interviews are about people who can't write asking questions of people who can't talk for the benefit of people who can't read'.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 22:11:24 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yet another Zappa quote...
Message:
'The future will consist of nostalgia and paperwork.' - F. Zappa

Hmmmmm, sounds like EV service opportunities.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 01:39:55 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Lurker # 27
Subject: Cool quotes, cool name.NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:23:50 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pilgrim's progress
Message:
I was born on a Friday, June 8, 56 years ago. From one Friday to another, 1945 - 2001. The blip between the dates is my story. Like all stories, it comes back to the present and disappears like dew in the morning sun.

I remember the good times with Maharaji this morning. The love I felt. That includes darshan. My love - our love? - was powerful. The inspiration was powerful, too. I remember being so happy in Wolfie’s in Miami Beach that I was delighted with the open bowls of dill pickles there, and the old pickle with the beehive hair serving us, too. I felt balanced on top of a fountain of bliss after many programs.

Should I be here, on the EX site? I just feel confused. Unhappy about “confused,” but confused just the same.

I live on the second floor on a street of many trees. Birds are always flying by, or flying up, perching, taking off. They hardly notice humans, let alone human issues such as co-dependency. They’re alive though. Quick, perky. Alert as hell. In contrast to the big glump slumped back on the balcony.

Been talking and e-mailing friends who have read my Journey. This site IS a premie site as well as an Ex site, all right. There’s no way I’m drifting back to Maharaji, but I do admit to feeling unenlightened about him. Time heals all wounds as say the wise, but it heals them at its own damn slow pace.

I for one am glad Pia’s site is up. If it had an open forum like this one has, I’d be 100 times happier, though. You know what is implicit in giving someone the freedom to say anything they want? Respect. When Maharaji gives that, it’ll show respect. Pia could have an Administrator, like Forum V has, to erase all the maniacal spams from the likes of “Anth the hate-filled.” (By the way, Anth, and friends, you have got me laughing at the whole, my whole, mess with your sardonic asides - it’s done me more good than anything, I think.)

I was around the other day when that psycho started the happyhappy spam attack. Deborah posted her, “MAHARAJI, YOU DICKLESS” right about then. I thought she was sensing that the spammer WAS M. Her post was just coincidence, I guess. Whoever it was, it was like they were drunk on hatred, anyway . . . and cognac? FA should send Pia some of the spammer’s posts. Show her what hate really looks like.

Remember the end of Ghostbusters? When Gozer the Destroyer, if that’s the proper title, tells the Ghostbusters to choose a form for her / it to take to destroy our world? And Dan Ackroyd thinks of a form “that could never, ever hurt you.” A sort of Pillsbury Doughboy figure (Mr. Marshmallow?) Sure enough, Gozer takes that form, only it’s 50 stories tall and likes to step on people and smash buildings.

I’ve had a couple of un-darshan dreams, but nothing like that Ghostbusters scene. But the superhuman energy of that spammer gets me to imagine this now.

I’ve had some very healing and soul-restoring meditations lately. It’s interesting to see that Knowledge works to light you up whether you’re worn down by the world or worn down by Maharaji.

Happy birthdays and un-birthdays to all. Thanks for being around.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:06:12 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Happy belated birthday, Scot - and thanks
Message:
You write very well and I think your documentation of what you are going through is helpful to others who may be going through the same thing (and believe me, most people who become exes do!)

It takes a while to deal with the loss of a belief system - if it was something that meant anything to you. I'm glad you're here.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:44:21 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Pilgrim's progress
Message:
Dear Scott,
Sorry I missed your b-day, hope it was a good day. I've been dealing with some things in my life and haven't even lurked. Glad you are making it without m. Good luck with that.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:36:36 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Happy B-Day
Message:
Scot I don't know where you are at but you mentioned the word 'codependency' I think that is key. Pay attention, I found that my own codependency kept me in the cult and once I started recovering and left I could see how sick and codependent the whole thing is. premies either feel better than or less than it is all the same thing with a different color I guess.
To me the cult is a dysfunctional environment, premies as they get close to m forget about kindness and basic human skills they become obsessed with being close, going to many events, etc.

Anyway hope you had a wonderful and insightful day.
Happy B-Day!!!
Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:19:05 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Pilgrim's progress--Happy Birthday to You....
Message:
Thanks for the reflection.

I'm always happy when people try and reclaim their past happiness, as well as their power. That happiness is a basketful of experiences that we picked along the way. It's important to separate the Wheat from the Chaff.

Big Happy Birthday to You dude

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:46:24 (GMT)
From: John Wayne
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Well happy birthday there pilgrim, this ain't the
Message:
promised land but at least there's no one to tell ya which pony to ride into town. You kinda gotta dust yerself off, put a new crease in yer hat, take the bull by the horns and get speared in the butt a few times ..... but, I reckon you'll grow to like it. That miragey feller he's down at Lucky's Saloon, drinkin' and gamblin' and cussin' away with the finest squaws at his hoot'n'holler . . . anyway he's a'waiting fer ya. Think it's gonna be a shoot-out at the I'm OK, Yer OK Corral. Good luck pilgrim, here's mud in yer third eye.
All the best, Scottie and cheers.
Gary
P.S. I will e-mail you as soon as I finish your journey, it's been three days now but I'm close.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:55:10 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Happy birthday, Pilgrim (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:53:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: And a very happy birthday to you, ScotJ
Message:
and may you have many more. You write so beautifully. Thanks for your post.

The idea that you raised of mutual respect jumped out at me. I never really ever felt that with Mr Rawat. He was often disrespectful to us even in public (i.e. ''...when you go back to the rat holes that you live in and the miserable lives you have, remember Maharaji,'' or ''I don't know your name and don't want to know it.'')

And of course the most disrespectful thing he is now doing is to shut the premies up and not let them speak.

I got an email from some premie friends of mine whom I have recently told that I have left Rev Rawat and they said quite nervously; ''Are you sure K works without M, ie the Master?''

I wrote back and said: ''It's been around for thousands of years before him and will be long after he dies. In fact it works better without him because now I can be true to myself and trust my own instincts and logic. And I feel clean now that I am no longer associated with someone of whom I am no longer proud and of whom I am actually ashamed.''

I also had good times and in fact have stopped and started my Journey so many times because I prefer to think of the good times and not dwell on the bad ones.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:38:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Happy and sad it's all OK to you!
Message:
Scot:

My father died several months ago, and I'm learning that things that get to you aren't necessarily bad. There's a lot to learn if we just don't try to be so damned happy all the time.

'When the cold blows down the mountain once again
and your raggedy excuses wear too thin
and your heart breaks you open once again
may you be strong
and invisible in the wind.'
--(Just a few lines from a song I wrote several years ago)

There is this happy/sad thing and I find myself trying to feel better, and realizing that being with what 'is' and letting it teach me is the strongest medicine there is to the state of unknowing we sometimes find ourselves at in this life. Unknowing's not bad either. Also leads to good stuff if we just let that one be.

I can only say this strongly because of how I'm feeling this morning. Don't avoid your feelings. They change like clouds in the sky, anyway.

peace and love and happy or unhappy birthday, f

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:36:22 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Being with what is
Message:
Loved your post Francesca..so true that we don't need to be happy all the time or understand either. The epiphanies come to me when 'I don't know' is active . The urge to understand, explain, even express the infinite diminishes it and brings us back into the realms of self-interest, To be free it seems to be neccessary to be completely alert, like Scot's pigeons, and to have no judgements and entertain no conclusions. The premie path with it's reliance on a Master is, by definition, binding.

Scot, I love your writing too. I don't know quite where you are on your journey away from the cult. I would reccomend experimenting with dropping everything you know about Spirituality and Knowledge and watching what happens. Try a day without refering to any fixed world view.

Happy Birthday..we are year mates
love
Tim

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Hey, Scottie!
Message:
Have a good one, today. One day you and Norma have to come out here, check out the west coast. I'd love to see you two. You were always a pleasure to know and live with back then. Have a drink on me or something (up to $5 Canadian, please).

BTW, how's Norma taking all of this 'breaking out' stuff anyway? Is she inclined to express herself on the matter? I bet she's ever bit as good a writer as you. I remember how subtle and funny she could be. In case you never noticed. :)

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:52:30 (GMT)
From: nagual rain
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Pilgrim's progress
Message:
i remember that part from st.john's revelations where he talks about a war in heaven..i think he had a vision of the war on the
internet (inner net) going on between ex-premie.org and it-aint-
so.org..yeah it's a world of competition that those bastards
on high try to get you involved in...i say stay clear out of it
and just be a witness..let me take you down to strawberry fields
nothing is real...except your own bliss
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:25:00 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: nagual rain
Subject: 'Be a witness'? You mean silent, right?
Message:
Because I think everyone who posts here is being a 'witness'.

By the way, I completely disagree with your words about 'the war on high in heaven' (I personally think the Book of Revelations should be stricken from the Bible, as it has caused so much pain and confusion over the years, but nevermind). I think you are seeing this as something far more grandiose than it actually is - even to your statement that it's a 'competition'. And who are 'those bastards on high'? - don't see anyone but people around here!

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:56:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: nagual rain
Subject: Why couldn't you just wish Scot a happy birthday
Message:
instead of preaching? Anyway your sermon was inane.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:36:11 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: nagual rain
Subject: Bliss?
Message:
Bliss is just a fraction of all possible positive feelings/state of being. Don't limit yourself to that one as being the ultimate
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:30:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nagual rain
Subject: Calling Ghostbusters! nagual rain's a fallin' (nt
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:34:35 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Thanks guys. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:03:52 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's real message
Message:
I am starting a new thread which proceeds from the thread below started by Joe in response to Dr. Edd. I maintained that Dr. Edd and the others at IAS are giving a false impression of Knowledge and Maharaji by leaving out the devoted, life-long allegiance to himself that Maharaji demands.

As Been There points out, the public image is that of teacher and student, the student gives Knowledge a fair chance for awhile and if they don't like it, they just leave, no problem. The heaviness of the old days, supposedly, is long gone.

But that ain't so.

The 'heaviness' is still there.

Rawat still demands total commitment, to the practice of Knowledge, and to himself as the Master. There is no experience of Knowledge without him, and the journey never ends until we reach infinity.

Rawat still uses scare tactics about that dangers of approaching the Infinite without the guidance of the Master.

Rawat still says that the Master is absolutely necessary, the whole way home.

Knowledge is not given freely, there are indeed strings attached, strings of loving Maharaji above all else, and supporting his life and work.

This is not old stuff, this is the 21st century.

I quote Mr. Rawat, (all quotes are very recent):

We're talking about the ultimate reality. And once you have the balancing rod of Knowledge, you have to listen - both to this heart and to the Master. You must cross this in this lifetime. Don't waste your time. Some people say, 'You don't need a Master.' The consequences have not hit home yet, have they? Of course, anybody in that person's position isn't going anywhere, it's just fantasy and imagination. -Oct., 2000

The Master's advice is never free. Because if you follow his advice, it will take everything you've got. It will require you to take every moment that you have and put it to use in that enjoyment, in that perfection. Not just bits and pieces of this lifetime, but this whole lifetime.

Let the Master show you the shortcuts, so that that which was destined for time can become timeless. That's what Knowledge is all about.

You want to be fulfilled? Without the Master, you cannot be fulfilled. Why am I saying 'Master' instead of 'Knowledge'? Because without the Master, you can't have Knowledge. Without the Master, Knowledge makes no sense whatsoever. -Oct 17, 2000

Knowledge is simply a way to go inside. It has to be a gift from one being to another being.

I am the filament...without that filament, there is no light.

I can't make you feel thirsty. You feel the thirst, and when you are ready to drink, I'll supply the water. I can do that, I can do that very well. -June, 1998

Let this heart be full. Now I know where to go, so I will. And if this life is a river, then my captain is my Master. -Mar.,2001

There are many, many more quotes. If we took the time to listen to all of what Rawat is saying these days, we would find hundreds of quotes. This trip is not a 'teacher/student relationship'. I maintain that such a statement is an outright lie, designed to tone-down Rawat's message for public consumption. But nobody should make the mistake about what Rawat's real message is, and has always been.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:15:57 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Great post, Way: **BEST OF FORUM** nomination
Message:
Good collection of quotes. The one I hate is 'if you don't like it, just walk' (paraphrase). It ain't as easy as that (as witness the posts on this site by recent exes), and definitely gives a false impression.

Thanks, Way -
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 18:03:55 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: cult of master: from free humans to prempuppets
Message:
cutting the strings of puppet master:

the process reverses -- from prempuppets to free human beings.

simple meditation techniques of knowledge were packaged with a con - personality cult strings and magical guru mojo concepts, that bind and reduce a human being to subservient docile status within the cult pyramid and cosmology - with the apex being the throne of the all-powerful god-master cult kingpin, who the cult is materially serving luxuriously and empowering above others.

Lurking premies: take the techs with you, if you please, for any connection is within -- and with one's own inner self [or higher power] - not via a greedy intermediary master-idol of idle minds.

cutting the strings of puppet bondage and attachment to prem submission/servitude, cult ideology, and personality cult idolatry, one becomes

clear of mind and free in spirit!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:47:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Excellent post, Way
Message:
It is an art of self deception that premies indulge in, isn't it? When I was a premie, Maharaji was everything. In fact, if it wasn't the faith and confidence I had in Maharaji I would have given up on Knowledge years before I actually did.

Thanks for all those quotes. They really say it all.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:36:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Maharaji's real message
Message:
Might be good to compile these. Maybe on EPO there's a spot already made for this stuff, or where a link could be added. It would be a good category. Recent statements by Maharaji about the necessity of a Master, i.e. him, the flaming filament!

love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:55:55 (GMT)
From: British Bulldog
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Blimey, just burnt meself on the flamin' filament
Message:
woof woof
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:20:05 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: British Bulldog
Subject: Filament or gas? You make the call. /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:44:47 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Way--Maharaji's real message
Message:
Way, your points are well taken. Interesting, M. spent quite a bit of time in the Portland program explaining 'bhakti', saying that the English translation as 'devotion' is limited and inaccurate, that bhakti can't be accurately translated into English. He explained flat out that this is a path of bhakti / devotion. I thought that was a great...calling it like it is. It was a frank discussion. And then, guess what, the EV editors EDITED OUT the discussion of bhakti out of the satellite broadcast!!! Now, they're advertising the 'uncut' broadcast as available.

Portland is the program where he joked about what he should be called, and concluded with 'You Know Who', which in Harry Potter is the one that is so evil that his name can't be spoken. M. laughed and laughed about it, and commented, 'I wonder how they're going to edit this?' They edited out the joke about You Know Who for some reason too. I think M. anticipated they might edit out the You Know Who part (partly because the joke was so culturally specific), but I doubt he anticipated they would edit out what seemed to me to be the crux of the program (which was very interesting), the discussion of bhakti.

Given what he said in Portland, and the quotes you offered, it doesn't appear to me that M. is being deceptive. It appears that there's a lot of confusion amongst his followers about how to present him and Knowledge.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:36:46 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: To Way--Maharaji's real message
Message:
Hi there Been There,

It sounds as though you still are there.

What amazed me about your post is the part where you imply that there is some premie doing service in the productions dept who would dare to edit a portion of Maha's satsang without permission and off his own bat ???!!!!???????

You haven't been taken in by this latest spin that there are rogue premies in Elan Vital who do such things unbidden have you??

Say it ain't so !

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:02:21 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Been There
Subject: Contradictions and the 'Excusemaker''...
Message:
In the 20 years I've been listening to M's satsang, he has never used the word ''bhakti'' until recently at the one Portland event. And it certianly has never been used with the aspriants.

Last year I helped setup and maintain the video library at local video events. There are a whole series of videos produced especially for aspirants and people interested in ''Learning more''. In these videos M. is always presented as a teacher.

Yet in regular videos for Premies, M. has said many times that he is NOT a teacher or a mere inspirational teacher, that he hates those titles, that he is an essential element that none of us can do without. He often quotes scripture, and talks about ''The Master'' in the third person, as a manifistation of the divine.

This is not presented to asprirants, and therefore is deceptive. Most of the aspirants I know of freak when they hear him refered to as the Master. If they survive that one, when they hear The Perfect Master, that usually does them in. Of those who do hang in for the whole thing, they usually drop out after receiving K.

At our commitee meetings, there was a great deal of discussion about what videos new people should be allowed to see. I found it upsetting, because it felt like we were trying to brainwash people.

The whole idea of propagating Knowledge is mostly a ruse for collecting money. Once the money goes into the pipeline, it disappears from scrutiny. The financial records are completely secret, and for good reason. If he were spending the money on what it was collected for, he would be proud to share that information with us, not running away from the press and hiding behind smart cards. If this were all just a misunderstanding, M. could clear it up quickly, but he won't, because he knows what he's done and is doing won't hold up to scrutiny.

Gregg is right in his post below, that there has always been a double approach to talking about M and K, one version for public consumption, and another version for Premies. As the Moonies like to say, ''You don't feed steak to a baby''.

M. often contadicts himself. This is because he is trying to have it both ways. And that only works when he can get the premies not to not think critically, and not question his authority. Hence his instruction: ''NEVER DOUBT the purity of the Master''. The premies have been trained not to listen to ''the Doubtmaker'', but have become experts at listening to their ''Excusemaker''. M's trip only ''works'' if it's not scrutinized. There are better ways to be happy, without having to do mental backflips in the excuse-making department.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:14:36 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Another excellent post!
Message:
That's two home runs in the same thread! Bravo, gentlemen, bravo!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:02:46 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Chuck
Subject: You don't feed steak to a baby
Message:
Chuck, I've never heard him talk about 'bhakti' before either. That's why it was so interesting .

As for who sees what videos when, it's interesting that you perceived it as brainwashing, when in almost every arena of endeavor learning is incremental (for instance, learning a language)...you don't go from A to E without passing through B, C and D. If one understands learning about Knowledge (and practicing it) to be a learning PROCESS involving growth and unfolding, it makes sense to introduce it incrementally. It is true actually: you DON'T feed steak to a baby.

I believe the intent of selecting the right videos for the right stage is to be respectful of the person's level and capacity, i.e. to let the petals open up naturally rather than forcing a bloom. I don't think the intent is to brainwash.

The Master/student relationship is difficult thing for Westerners to understand. We've been taught, especially Americans, to honor rugged individualism. In Asia the Master concept is culturally embedded. It's normal. So I think in introducing the Master idea later rather than earlier in the learning process (at least in the West) the assumption is that a feeling or experience for that a feeling/recognition for M. may have developed, so the Master concept is not so unrelatable, i.e. is not coming 'out of left field'. I believe that's the thinking for the incremental introduction. It makes sense to me.

Whether one accepts the concepts about the Master and the role of the Master as presented my M. (and the Indian belief system) as true,is up to the individual. This is when one must exercise discimination, discernment and plumb one's heart. You can choose to reject that belief system and throw out baby with the bathwater kit & kaboodle (sp?), choose to keep the baby and throw out the bathwater, or keep both the baby and the bathwater. I think what many of us did for far too many years was to keep both the baby and the bathwater. We didn't excercise our own powers of discernment. (By not doing so I hurt myself and my family, and I take responsibility.)

I'm curious why you perceived it as brainwashing? Did you think people were being encouraged not to exercise their own powers of discernment and discrimination? Lots to think about here.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 07:32:40 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Adult individuals are not babies. Crap analogy. nt
Message:
ghh
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:21:12 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: You are so full of shit
Message:
It's coming out of you ears! This ain't steak, BT. This is a personality cult with 4 meditation techniques blown way out of proportion. Fuck you with this bullshit about being 'respectful of a person's level and capacity'. If you really believe that, you are a moron.
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:21:53 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The steak comment was offered by Chuck.
Message:
as a Moonie saying: 'You don't feed steak to a baby' example. I didn't know its full context which someone explained below.

So forget about the steak example. All I was trying to do was explain what I think is the rationale behind the way Knowledge is presented. I'm not defending a position.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:27:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: The steak comment was offered by Chuck.
Message:
Sorry, BT, maybe I reacted a little more strongly than I should have, but I think you put a spin on the aspirant program that would rival the race for the presidency of the USA in this past election. Beyond that, in fact, Maharaji couldn't have spun it better. This is the kind of twisted logic that draws people into the cult, and leaves them with no rhyme or reason for why they're in it. It leaves them with a way of thinking that is indefensible, because in order to justify their existence in the cult, it's this exact way of thinking that they have to adopt.

They have to abandon a direct and honest appraisal of what Knowledge is in favor of all kinds of rationalizations and justifications that have no bearing on reality at all. The end result is they lose themselves in Knowledge, other than what their (now) fucked up little minds are telling them, that they've found themselves.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:34:17 (GMT)
From: Done That
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Chuck Roast of course..... (nt)
Message:
how many chickens must roost before the cock crows?
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:21:32 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: You don't feed steak to a baby
Message:
In any field of learning, exept in hazardous situations, like medical or military training, knowledge is not kept from 'lower levels' although it might be boring or incomprehensible. Doing so takes individual responsability away. It is disrespectful and insulting.
The western culture has problems with the concept of a master because we are more individual and have grown BEYOND that!
To make people accept this concept they have to be eased into it. Not by giving more information but by slowly narrowing the field of vision: Brainwashing in name of 'the champion of independent thinking'.

BTW that is the best joke Ive heard since long

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:57:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Deceptive and false advertising -- grasshopper!
Message:
I smelled a rat in the whole organization in the early to mid 80s, when the pictures with the malas and krishna crowns were verboten and there was a definite fear around any 'regular premie' speaking his or her mind.

The introductory programs were formulaic and boring, the videos pathetic, sterile and contrived. DLM/EV/Maharaji shut down the news reporters in the mid-70s, because any unbiased reporting on the beliefs and the cult made it look like ... a cult.

After I was no longer involved, premies told me I should throw out those old pictures, and that people were asked to discard old videos and tapes. Luckily some people didn't do that. I only threw them out because I wasn't interested, but luckily I saved a little printed material with the kind of quotes he doesn't want shown to people until they've been around for a year (LOLs).

There is a calculated on-ramp to this miserable organization because most sane people would not come back after a while, if told that M was the 'master' etc. I remember that I was always trying to find ways to present what I was doing to 'normal' people when I was involved, because the whole thing sounded so wierd.

People are being schnookered, plain and simple. Investing their time so that they are relucant to throw in the towel once the truth is told to them. If M was in the business of teaching people to meditate he'd get on with it. It's a con job, tricking people into a master/student relationship. The Tibetan Buddhists, for example, are up front about it, and there are a lot of meditations that can be taught to people who are not going to do the master-guru/student path. M has very little to offer people who do not wish to see him as 'the superior power in person.'

EV has a church exemption with the IRS, and yet they always state that they are not a religion, and there is no belief system. A group must have commonly held beliefs in order to get a church exemption with the IRS. I would be interested to see what DLM/EV told the IRS about their members' beliefs! They also claim to have no members, and I don't think you can have a 'church' without members. Maybe now that they've sold enough smartcards, they're legal on that one. Who knows.

Sorry, but it ounds like you're rationalizing.

peace, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:29:37 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Been There
Subject: You don't lie to people in order to sell them...
Message:
... a belief system. I've got to keep this short, got work to do. So briefly:

You said:

''I'm curious why you perceived it as brainwashing? Did you think people were being encouraged not to exercise their own powers of discernment and discrimination? Lots to think about here.''

When I came to Knowledge, it was through the hippy gay community in SF. It was warm, interactive, unsupervised an unscripted. The videos were uncatagorized. There was live satsang, premies were free to talk about their experiance. It was satsang that brought me knowledge, satsang from many people. I also recieved ''Knowledge Lite'' in the early 1980's. There were no heavy demands made on me, and I was not coerced to believe anything. It was more like ''try it, you'll like it.''

My experience in recent times was exactly the opposite. It was cold, no spontinaity, very controled, sterile and dead. None of this, none of that. The Knowledge was just a lure to get people interested in M. The only thing we were propagating was an interest in M. We were to keep OURSELVES out of it, it was all about M, period. As most modern PWKs will tell you, the techiniques are incidental. The videos were about introducing new people to a belief system, carefully crafted to ''sell'' the concept of The Master. To me, satsang was about feeling good, not about selling any concepts.

I'm not trying to change your mind. Believe what you like. Have a Master if you want. I don't doubt that you've had good experiences with M. I still practice the techinques, but as Yoga, in a more traditional way. But even if I still wanted a guru, I wouldn't want to be associated with the lies, secrecy and deception that M. propagates.

Have you ever compaired M. with other gurus? I found the writings of Faqir Chand very interesting.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:21:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Been There
Subject: So what is the difference between lessons...
Message:
..One and two? The need for devotion and donations, perhaps?

Unless you can clarify this, your analogy with orthodox teaching processes is worthless. As I recall, even 'advanced' satsangs (ie. premies only) said nothing about K itself but still pitched everything essentially at aspirant level, dealing only with the value of K and the beauty of life - with maybe an extra stress on the importance of the Master. An importance hammered home but never explained.

At no time is any information imparted. Inspiration, maybe, but nothing that I would recognise as a 'teaching'.

So can you please clarify the learning stages as you understand them, BT. This is a serious request.

Nige (the hopefully not worthless teacher).

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:38:47 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I'm too far removed Nige
Message:
to answer your question. I'm not involved with the aspirant process, and don't even know any aspirants. So I can't define the 'stages' for you. I think it is more about reaching levels of understanding, acceptance and inspiration than about absorbing and mastering quantities of information (as in learning a language, algebra, or developing a skill such as expository writing). How stages of development are gaged, i.e. what are the criteria to know what stage someone is at, I don't know. Sorry I can't be of more help.

I think it was Way up above who gave the example of Chapter 15 contradicting Chapter 1. I agree with his example. If Chapter 15 contradicts Chapter 1, then misrepresentation is taking place. If Chapter 15 is consistent with Chapter 1, then no misrepresentation is taking place.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 23:13:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Been There
Subject: Funny, you weren't five minutes ago...
Message:
..it was all about feeding steaks to babies. It seemed you were presuming to know something about all this.

So now you are saying 'deeper understanding' - not more advanced instruction - is what the learning process is about. Like you can have one without the other. Go figure!

So next question: how do they decide when a baby is ready for proper steak? (Another serious question about to remain unanswered)

Thanks for trying, but why bother? ;)


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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:16:13 (GMT)
From: Been There (BT)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: To Nige... Funny, you weren't ...
Message:
Nigel, I was speaking from past experience, i.e. the way it used to be when I was in the middle of it (10-15 years ago). That's the way the thinking was then. I'm presuming that's the way it still is, with modifications. There are always modifications.
I think the approach is still to enable the aspirants to learn in increments. To get your questions answered accurately, though, you could talk to someone who's involved now. Probably any instructor could tell you how the system works, or any aspirant coordinator, or someone involved with propagation. I am none of those. I'm sure if you ask respectfully you'll get a respectful answer.
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 16:09:13 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Been There (BT)
Subject: Oops! I thought you were a premie, BT...
Message:
Not having read many (any?) of your previous posts, that's the impression I got. Sorry. But you still seem to be giving undue credence to this idea of incremental understanding. Whether or not we were formally involved in the aspirant process, we all have end-user memories from our aspirant days. And I don't see much difference between the early years when 'You need more satsang' was the standard reply to the unfortunate wretch grovelling at a Mahatma's feet begging for K, and the present requirement of watching x number of videos, or whatever. The essential technique is/was incredibly vague, not to mention manipulative.

I had first-hand experience of three Knowledge selections. Saw plenty of aspirants chosen and rejected. In not a single instance was the reasoning behind the decision ever given, ie. what it might be that the rejected aspirant had failed to understand, or how the initiator had deduced this supposed unreadiness.

One thing was certain though: if you expressed the slightest uncertainty about M's status as a teacher/leader/godhead (whether after lesson 1 or 15) you would NOT be offered the keys to the kingdom.

I don't believe 'understanding' had anything to do with it, beyond understanding that if you had doubts you had better bloody well keep quiet about them...


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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:15:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Keeping quiet is part of the trap.
Message:
'I don't believe 'understanding' had anything to do with it, beyond understanding that if you had doubts you had better bloody well keep quiet about them...'

Keeping quiet about doubts is part of the trap. It might seem innocuous but often it leads to 'surrender' (now called 'synchronization') to the guru. It is an act of submission, of subserviance. When people act a certain way for long enough they start to believe it. Part of the reason for the long wait to 'receive Knowledge' is so people start to believe the way they are acting. You smile long enough, you believe it, frown long enough, you believe it. Supress doubts long enough and you start thinking that they should be suppressed because they are 'no good', not just as a way to 'get Knowledge'. 'Getting your questions answered' really means 'Don't question anymore'. 'Resolve your doubts' really means 'Stifle your doubts'. 'Still your mind' means 'Keep in chains, ignore, any thoughts or feelings that oppose being a slave of the 'Master' irrespective of logic or reason'. Rawat just a year ago even blabbed about the 'logic of the mind' as being a 'bad' thing. So much for his getting rid of the religion that he said he would do, he was just making it more covert.

I remember a premie couching an aspirant on how to act in order to 'receive Knowledge'. I don't remember if I was the aspirant. Basically you don't express any doubts, even if you have them, and you grovel, you beg. When I was at Amaroo in the '90s the same thing was happening. People have to get into the character of being a premie sufficiently to 'receive k'. 'Being ready' is simply whether Rawat likes the way a person did their submission ritual. He rejects people but doesn't say 'I didn't like the way you begged.' which is obviously what is going on.

There was a psychological experiment (Nigel, I'm sure you know about it) years ago in which people acted like guards and inmates in a prison. The 'guards' started abusing the 'inmates' and the 'inmates' didn't leave even though they could have at any time. The people running the experiement had to stop it because things got out of hand. This is similar to what happens in Rawat's cult. I had a dream while still in the cult in which I was in a prison without a door. I (and the other inmates) could have left at any time but I didn't because I didn't sufficiently realize I could.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 03:45:35 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: G
Subject: And after all of that only a few in hundreds
Message:
stick around for the long haul anyway. So, more power to your insightful observations. There is also a psychology to the whole trip of asking to receive the great gift, and the fact that you can be rejected. During the indoctrination process there is intrigue, positive re-inforcement, lots of wishful thinking involved, but even though m has 35 years of experience in this process of revealing it, the attrition rate is still phenomenal and at least in the west, the numbers of interested converts has fortunately dried up to a dribble.
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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:18:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Keeping quiet is part of the trap.
Message:
Good post, G. I think that Been There's idea about readying people for knowledge according to their understanding is idealizing the whole process and thus giving credence to it.

He or she is legitimizing the whole thing as if we really were children not developmentally ready for some truth that we could not handle without preparation (like explaining sex or death to children).

It's a very idealistic way of looking at knowledge and K!

But in fact, it *is* a brainwashing process and a conditioning process. You are so right on when you say that the aspirant process was all about putting on a sufficiently humble, no-nothing face. As in 'I don't know nuffin, Mr. Master, all the concepts I once held so dear are but dust in the wind. Please fill me up with your knowledge.' I really resented that whole process of pretending to know nothing, when I knew darn well that I knew a thing or two. It pissed me off. I wanted the darn knowledge more than I wanted my self-respect I guess.

Contrast this with real human love, the kind where one friend accepts another for exactly who they are and respects what they know. The I-Thou relationship, as Buber said, did not exist in M's world. Maharaji said 'It's I-I and you make yourself empty for me. There's no you in this relationship!'

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:48:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'clean slate'
Message:
'As in 'I don't know nuffin, Mr. Master, all the concepts I once held so dear are but dust in the wind. Please fill me up with your knowledge.''

Even know, as quoted at www.elanvital.org, Rawat talks about having to have a 'clean slate'. Your wording describes what he means by 'clean slate', but he doesn't explain what he means, that would be too straight forward.

'The I-Thou relationship, as Buber said, did not exist in M's world. Maharaji said 'It's I-I and you make yourself empty for me. There's no you in this relationship!''

Who is Buber? I agree that is what Rawat says in so many words, but did Rawat really say those exact words? That's sounds like something that 'Bubba Free John' (aka Adi Da etc.) would say.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 21:18:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'clean slate'
Message:
No Rawat never said those exact words, I was paraphrasing. Maharaji implied this alot, however, and this is what his actions said again and again.

As for Buber, the link JohnT supplied will be helpful as will reading one of his books. I think you would like him.

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Date: Tues, Jun 12, 2001 at 03:38:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Helen and JohnT
Subject: Thanks, the I-I trip
Message:
Helen and JohnT,

Thanks for the quotes and the link,

Re 'Bubba Free John' vis-à-vis Rawt, besides the I-I trip and 'you are nothing' trip they are in, there are a lot of other eerie similarities between these weirdos. Compare these wordings:

From http://names.adidam.org/daavadhoota.htm:

'The Title 'Avadhoota' traditionally refers to a God-Realized being, who, by virtue of his or her Realization, has shaken off the bondage of ordinary social expectations and may thus act freely, spontaneously, and sometimes unconventionally.'

[sounds so much like Maharajism-speak]

From http://www.elanvital.org/behind_the_message.htm:

'In private he comes across as a shy person though with an outrageous sense of humor. Speak to people who know him well you find that he is at best a one-of-a-kind visionary, at worst unfathomable.' ...
... Maharaji is the child guru who didn't burn out or fade away and that, combined with a total dedication to his students and a total disregard for ever doing what is expected, is the main reason why the 'world' may never fully accept or reject him.'

Oh those wild and wacky guys, eh?

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 11:46:54 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Martin Buber
Message:
From the 'Overview' at http://www.buber.de/en/

Buber's philosophy of dialogue views the human existence in relations, and that in two fundamentally different kinds of relations: I-It and I-Thou relations.

An I-It relation is the normal everyday relation of a human being towards the things surrounding him. Man can also consider his fellows as an It - and that is what he does most of the time -, he views the other from a distance, like a thing, a part of the environment, forged into chains of causality.

Radically different the I-Thou relation. The human being enters into it with his innermost and whole being, in a meeting, in a real dialogue this is what both of the partners do. For Buber, interhuman meetings are only a reflection of the human meeting with God. The essence of the biblical religion consists for Buber of the fact that - regardless of the infinite abyss between them - a dialogue between man and God is possible.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 21:01:06 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: G
Subject: That was a great post, G. So well said...
Message:
I think you could develop this section into a longer (potentially *Best of*) thread:

'Keeping quiet about doubts is part of the trap. It might seem innocuous but often it leads to 'surrender' (now called 'synchronization') to the guru. It is an act of submission, of subserviance. When people act a certain way for long enough they start to believe it. Part of the reason for the long wait to 'receive Knowledge' is so people start to believe the way they are acting. You smile long enough, you believe it, frown long enough, you believe it. Supress doubts long enough and you start thinking that they should be suppressed because they are 'no good', not just as a way to 'get Knowledge'. 'Getting your questions answered' really means 'Don't question anymore'. 'Resolve your doubts' really means 'Stifle your doubts'. 'Still your mind' means 'Keep in chains, ignore, any thoughts or feelings that oppose being a slave of the 'Master' irrespective of logic or reason'. Rawat just a year ago even blabbed about the 'logic of the mind' as being a 'bad' thing. So much for his getting rid of the religion that he said he would do, he was just making it more covert.

Actually that's also a valid point you make about the Stanford Prison Experiment (Zimbardo et al - look it up, anyone who doesn't know about it - it's all the introductory psychology texts). The scariest detail of this study isn't the fact that people can easily become sadistic - I mean, wow, big deal - but that subjects who volunteered to be 'jailers' were made to play inmates and those who volunteered to be 'prisoners' had to act the role of jailers. The former very quickly became emotional wrecks and the latter psychopathic bullies - routinely allowing their own behaviour to go beyond that permitted within the rules of the experiment.

So, yeah, acting a role until you become that role is no idle speculation. It happens quite easily and alarmingly quickly. Similarly we acted the part of non-thinking devotee until we became non-thinking devotees. And having come thus far before the K selection, the quality of your meditation experiences become a secondary consideration.

Why else would M need an aspirant process?


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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Other experiments.
Message:
Thanks. Yes, a thread would be good, discussing the psychological aspects is very therapeutic.

Guru, Master, Mahatma, Initiator, Instructor, devotee, 'student' (a misnomer), premie, PWiKie, they are all roles.

In another experiment, real subjects thought they were administering shocks to people that they thought were the subjects. They went all the way to the red zone, where XXX was printed, and beyond the point where no more (fake) screams were heard. Submission to authority. Scary.

In yet another experiment, the subject, with about nine other 'subjects' (they are actually in on it) are asked to judge the comparative lengths of two bars. There were cards where it was extremely clear which bar was longer, but a surprisingly high percentage of subjects went along with the lie told by the other subjects that the shorter bar was longer. Yeah, 2 + 2 = 5, sure it is, yes suh, and Rawat knows everything even though he doesn't know everything. Freaky.

The experiments seem to indicate that a large portion of humans are suseptible to cults. Just consider Nazi Germany and Japan in WWII. It's not just cults that these experiments relate to, but to human behavior in general. The pressure to submit to the alpha male and/or to the pack appears to be quite strong. It takes courage and level headedness not to when not appropriate. I remember at the first 'festival' I heard 'Run to your lord.' I basically thought 'What the fuck?' and had a sinking feeling like 'Oh shit.' Unfortunately I chose the wrong road, maybe I didn't want to lose my new found 'friends' (in a certain sense the premies were my friends). Oh well, better late than never.

Another factor is not wanting to admit you've gone done the wrong road. The further you go, the more reluctant you are to double back to get on the right road. I think Rawat, rather manipulatively, used that analogy in one of his talks. A person's mind, quite correctly, tells them that worshipping Rawat is the wrong road. Rawat turns it around so that you interpret that message differently, thinking it is a warning to not 'leave' Rawat.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:46:59 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Nice to have you here BT
Message:
I forgot to give you a warm welcome before now. You'll find that the reception you get here may get hot but please stay.

regards
Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 04:29:30 (GMT)
From: BT
Email: None
To: Steve M
Subject: Thanks. Trying again
Message:
Thanks Steve. Early on when the Forum started I posted a few times under a different name. I was JUST BEGINNING to step back and take a fresh look at everything related to M. and Knowledge (like Erica Anderson recently said she was). I was so viciously reemed by Jim, Jerry and G (though well received by others) that I stopped posting. I'm glad to see that in the last six months or so the standard and quality of discussions on the Forum has risen considerably. I'm finding the content much more substantive (good writing (GREAT in the case of Babs), great humor, real feelings, deep thinkning; not just endless trashing (although some of that is still here too). I couldn't disagree more with Pia in her description of the posters here as hate mongers (or whatever she said...something close to that).
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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 17:15:41 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: BT
Subject: to Been There - working it out in public.
Message:
Hey Been There -
Glad you gave the forum another try. I wish there was more space here for people who, as you said, are JUST BEGINNING to step back and take a fresh look at everything related to M. and Knowledge. It is hard to deal with attacks when you are feeling confused in the first place - and it's difficult to deal with getting so many answers to your first tentative posts. However, I also agree with you that there has been more space and a better attitude here in the last 6 months or so - it's a dynamic, changing environment.

I read your posts in this thread and I think part of the problem - and why you got attacked - was that it wasn't clear that you were basically trying to explain EV's propagation rationale and not your OWN rationale.

BTW, I also think it's interesting that they edited the bhakti discussion out of the video of M's Portland speech - although I don't think this would have happened without M's specific permission (don't his own daughters work at Visions?!) I don't think M or EV or Visions gives people much credit for being able to understand what it's all about, and probably thought the bhakti discussion would 'confuse' people - even though it's TRUE.

Take care,
Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 08:23:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: BT
Subject: You're fading in and out, Been There
Message:
I've read your posts with interest in spite of my tendency not to take anonymous posters seriously mostly because in the end it is always disappointing to realize that you can't really ever get to know the real person behind the alias so why waste time trying.

I'm hearing your honesty and sincerity but your voice would be much be louder and clearer if I knew something about you. You seem willing to talk about yourself. I'm here more for the personalities than the politics so I'd like to know more about you.

And always feel free to be as nosy as me.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 04:50:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: You're not that far removed.
Message:
'I think it is more about reaching levels of understanding, acceptance and inspiration than about absorbing and mastering quantities of information'

'understanding' what? 'accepting' what? That you are to be a slave of the 'Master'? That you are to accept anything that Rawat says without analysis or criticism, even statements that contradict each other? That you are to NEVER doubt the 'purity' of the 'Master'?

Do you actually think that his behavior shows that he is 'pure'? You know what behavior I'm referring to.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:57:31 (GMT)
From: Gregg (been there too)
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: You don't feed prasad to an ignorant heathen
Message:
On the face of it, Been There, your argument is convincing to those who believe in the usefulness of a guru and the necessity of incremental learning in any field of study. And, in fact, I am also sympathetic to the traditional progression of esoteric study: first master the basics, later the wild stuff.

(This is the traditional Tibetan way, for example, although Tibetan lamas selling their wares in the West find that Westerners want the Highest Teachings right away, and they are willing to pay top dollar for the right to listen to teachings about Black Hat Dzogchen, or whatever, as long as it sounds like the Best Buddhist Buzz.)

However, with Maharajism, I'm not sure this works. See, there are no esoteric teachings. Just raw quasi-Hindu messianic bhakti. There are countless teachers preaching this sort of path, and if you look at their web pages (hey, that's how you advertise these days!) you'll see that most of them are pretty up front about their schtick.

Maharaji is not only coy about the true nature of his religion, he lies about it!

That's so wrong, man.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:34:28 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: And you don't feed false milk to a baby either
Message:
I am sure that premies rationalize the incremental teaching approach in just the way you say, Been There. All would be fine and dandy if what the student learns in chapter 1 does not get contradicted in chapter 15. Ch.15 should just add to and compliment Ch.1.

One example is that newcomers are told outright that they will be free to keep their current religion and still practice Knowledge without conflict. So they continue with their interest and continue to investigate. Then they are at a Knowledge selection and asked about any religious affiliations. Lo and behold, no Knowledge initiation for them until they renounce all other religious affiliations. We were visited here by a one-time aspirant with this very complaint.

It is also true that newcomers' questions will not be answered fully and truthfully, certain true information will be purposely kept from them.

So the steak and the baby analogy is not really appropriate, either for Moonies or premies. Because the baby is being fed food that the grown-ups know is not real food and that it is food that none of the grown-ups ever eat. The babies are being given false food, like milk that only looks like milk and taste like milk but doesn't have any of the nutritional qualities of milk that the baby needs.

p.s. sorry, Been There, to be so contradictory to your posts this week, but you have been playing the devil's advocate in favor of the premies viewpoint.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:29:31 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: And you don't feed false milk
Message:
First, Way, I'm enjoying the discusseion. Your input is thoughtful and well stated.

Second, I have heard a story like the one you cite, however, I was IN a Knowledge selection some years ago (doing service or 'participating' in current parlance) in which a woman said she was a practicing Christian, went to church regularly, etc. and WAS selected to receive Knowledge. So there are two scenarios re having religious affiliations: repercussions and none.

Where people said they were not selected to receive Knowledge because of religious affiliations, it is possible that that was the PERCEIVED reason, but not the actual reason. However, the 'Lo and Behold' story you tell of the aspirant who visited you sounds convincing. If that story is true (and the similar case I heard about), then clearly Chapter 15 contradicts Chapter 1, and misrepresentation is taking place.

I suspect that sometimes it happens one way and sometimes another. That would explain the effort to 'synchronize' wouldn't it?

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:16:13 (GMT)
From: The Deli Lama
Email: dilemma.com
To: Been There
Subject: You can feed dung to a cow but you won't drink
Message:
it's milk if it smells like bullshit, or something like that there.
Lao Tse.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:04:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Then how do you explain this bullshit?
Message:
From the EV FAQs page:

'Can one receive and practice Knowledge and still keep all of one's beliefs?

The only request Maharaji makes is that people do not approach Knowledge as another thing to collect on a ‘spiritual shopping trip’ as it were. Knowledge stands apart from the other things you do in your life and should be approached without preconceptions.

He explains: 'To give Knowledge the best chance possible you need to have a clean slate. Just as a gardener will not plant a tree where another tree is growing, you have to clear a space in your life to allow the seed of Knowledge to grow.''
***

If the answer was 'Yes' that would have been stated. The answer is 'No', but Rawat and his sycophants don't want to come out and say it. Instead they talk in cult speak.

'...do not approach Knowledge as another thing to collect on a ‘spiritual shopping trip...’

They are saying that you must not 'collect' anything else, i.e. 'Knowledge' must be your only spiritual practice.

'Knowledge stands apart from the other things you do in your life and should be approached without preconceptions.'

What the hell is that supposed to mean? It seems to mean that if Rawat tells you to do something, do it, give it number one priority without a second, nothing else matters, i.e. be a total slave.

'... you need to have a clean slate ... you have to clear a space in your life ...'

That is cult speak for

'Get rid of all your beliefs, 'clean' your mind (brain wash), clear yourself of your own desires, motivations, goals, beliefs, attitude, dehumanize yourself. We will 'help' you do this.'

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:11:09 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Don't know how
Message:
G, I don't know how to explain it. It's confusing. It sounds like 'speaking out of two sides of the mouth'. I'm not sure how it can work to keep your religion, practices, etc. (which is said to be O.K.) AND have a clean slate, etc. I see what you mean.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:21:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: That's absurd. Complete nonsense
Message:
In the normal course of things we have an adequate choice of words to describe ideas on the spectrum of wisdom. But this kind of cult reasoning really pushes for some new terminology that might expand the lower end of the scale. What you're saying tests the limits. I mean, once you've said 'stupid', called ideas 'worthless' and the like, what's left?

I'm curious why you perceived it as brainwashing? Did you think people were being encouraged not to exercise their own powers of discernment and discrimination? Lots to think about here.

You don't feed steak to a baby because a baby can't digest it. You don't teach calculus to five year-olds for the same reason. But indocrinating premies into accepting Maharaji as the Lord is a whole different matter. There's nothing fancy about the concept -- indeed, Maharaji'd be the first to say you can't really understand it anyway. The only 'fancy' trick is getting people to buy it. We used to blast it on the streets. Now it's hidden.

Take a look at the Instructor Training Manual for aspirants elsewhere on this site. I don't know about 'brainwashing', exactly. That's a pretty fancy term. But, whatever you want to call it, it's trickery. Doubts are never dealt with as substantive concerns, rather they're just mind-noise that must be avoided, repressed, and browbeaten down.

You really need to think further on these matters.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:48:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Been there
Subject: and also contradictory
Message:
'...it makes sense to introduce it incrementally. It is true actually: you DON'T feed steak to a baby.'

You are writing and thinking just like a moonie.

For Rawat to say he is a teacher in 'introductory' talks, then later say he is NOT a teacher is not incremental, it is contradictory. The 'introductory' talks give a false impression, they serve the purpose of bait to get people hooked, then the switch happens later as a person 'learns' more about 'Knowledge'.

When you learn a language (or say mathematics), what you learn later on does not contradict what you learned before. That is an entirely different process.

'Learning about Knowledge' is a case of deception, not incremental learning.

Calling an adult a baby is disrespectful. The cult speak 'You don't feed steak to a baby.' means that you don't tell people what the actual beliefs of the cult are up front because people would gag, they would not accept it. No, first you soften them up by giving them a false impression (the bait), then you damage their critical reasoning abilities so that they will swallow the bs later. Once a person has unwittingly invested time in a cult and has developed a desire for the bait, it becomes harder to drop out of it. Cults use that.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:49:35 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: The Master of All (well, at least all premies)
Message:
That's right, Way, and this duplicity has been the modus operandi since the mid-seventies. Perhaps in the first few years, acid-addled premies were frank about their love for the Living Lord.

But in the years I was involved (1974-78) and ever since, as far as I can tell, there have always been two stories about Maharaji: the story premies tell to themselves and to each other; and the story marked for general consumption.

To the public, Maharaji is a 'teacher.' And that was the word I would use when first breaching the subject to an acquaintance or coworker. Maybe 'guru,' an exotic and ambiguous word to Americans, but never 'Master,' a word which clearly implies omnipotence on His part and subservience on our part. The truth, in other words.

If a person is in a 'spiritual group,' and gives one version of her involvement to strangers, a version which leaves out the most important parts, does that make this group a cult? Hell, yeah.

Here's what satsang would really sound like, if it were true to the meaning of the word (company of TRUTH):

'Oh, you want to hear about my meditation? Well, this guy from India is my guru, Guru Maharaji. He teaches meditation. But the main thing is that he's like, an incarnation of God. I'm not sure what incarnation really means, but for me it mea ns that I pray to him. I think he guides the direction of my life. Everything that happens, it's because of him. He's like, in the sky or something in my imagination. When I die, he'll be there, at the end of the tunnel of light, smiling.

I'm watching my mind all the time to make sure it doesn't, like, think too much. I'm trying to be good for Guru Maharaji.

The main thing I do is earn money so I can go and see him in person. I always want to kiss his feet, but I don't get to much anymore.

Look at his picture. Isn't he, like, so divine?'

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:24:55 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Worshipping a Degenerate
Message:
The new premie cult think is maharaji doesn't judge my lifestyle, I won't judge his. He's supposed to be a spiritual leader, better than god, yet his private lifestyle is that of a complete degenerate. And premies can explain that away and worship him anyway, it's beyond me how low they have stooped. He also promotes selfishness, many have suffered form being involved with him but he doesn't care, and neither do his premies.

I feel more open and compassionate towards others in pain than when I was in the cult.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:36:45 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Will
Subject: You're right nobody in Rawatworld gives a fuck nt
Message:
f
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:46:37 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm really feeling sorry for Ms. Pia
Message:
Just imagine knowing that the call from the Grim Reeper is imminent. So you decide to justify your major life decision by starting Say-it-Ain't-so.org. This just makes me angrier with that Rawat slime. He is allowing her to go out by making a fool of herself one last time. What a GUY !!
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:45:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: well she thinks she is on a mission
Message:
Feeling self righteous is a high. I feel badly for her too though, which is why I am trying not to read the site, since it makes me angry. I don't appreciate being accused of being part of a hate group for starters.

If some soft of communication could happen between the 2 sites I may feel differently but last I looked I did not see anything in place for that on her site and I doubt she or her 'staff' (love that one) will be coming over here for a chat.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:44:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Regarding the Jagdeo affair
Message:
There have been one or two enquiries about this. Well, I'm sure there's quite a bit about it on the ex-premie.org site but on my own site, I have condensed some of the most relevant info for your perusal.

Click here for the full Jagdeo story

I should say that it is not pleasant reading.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:09:25 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: FA: Can there be a link to this?
Message:
Well done, Sir Dave! You are truly a Knight in Shining Armour!

FA and Webmaster: I propose there should be a permanent link to this page on the EPO site somewhere. I know it probably duplicates what's in the Jagdeo section already, but there's something about the way Sir Dave organizes information that is very clear and easy to access and make sense of, he has a way of paring it down to the bare essentials and getting down to the nitty gritty. Perhaps for those who don't have the time, energy or stomach to read the larger section?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:56:00 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I hope so
Message:
I am working on new forum guidelines, which will include recommendations to the EPO webmaster about links from the forum.

When they are implemented depends on the weather, and our real lives:-)

Forum Admin with a real life away from spammers.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:02:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: This sounds very beaurocratic
Message:
It only takes a couple of minutes to put a link onto a page using Frontpage or some other web editor and upload it up to the site.

.. Dave

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 09:51:40 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: This sounds very beaurocratic
Message:
I can do that, but don't want and can't update links too often. There are already hundreds of links from EPO to other websites!

Maybe I can have a link from the 'Jagdeo Issue' page ?

And also from the links page, but I think there is already a link to your website.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 08:45:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It hasn't yet reached the committee stage
Message:
and I need authorisation from head office to hold a meeting to discuss the possibility of the probability of a link from my site to yours.

That said, There's now a link to your site near the bottom. This is most irregular. Some lone ranger is doing things off his own bat.

This is the most dangerous time - when people feel enthusiasm. Then they should shut up and just simply make gestures to a higher authority since despite the fact that they've had knowledge for thirty years - they know nothing about it and aren't qualified to speak or even look at the master.

In fact, they should all simply not say anything and just send money, in secret so that nobody ever hears about it. Perhaps they can anonymously phone a friend and give the phone number of a place where they can order a copy of a video about the possibility of getting a video introducing the possibility of knowledge.

That way, someone else can send money in secret too. But I've gone off track a little here, haven't I.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 02:58:21 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It's not this way
Message:
Hi Dave,

I'm sorry, but it's a bit more complicated here.

Anything related to the forum is managed by the forum software, including options that only administrators have an access to.

You can't just update the link on the top of this window! You have to update the software ! And I'm not sure Brian wants to do this, or has the time to do it for the moment.

That does not mean he doesn't want to do it !
I should also update my general links page on EPO that's a bit of a mess for historical reasons .....

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 20:49:46 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a good sign
Message:
It means the material here is growing and things are progressing
I'm not a webmaster (mistress?) at work, I do development, but I know we have utilities that can track links, in a sense library them and help keep things current. Don't know any off hand last I looked we were using webcrawler I think. But if you want I can research it email me if you want.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 16:00:50 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: this is a must-read. Thanks, Dave. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:19:19 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Latest EeVee Stuff
Message:
Elan Vital UK Email Announcement - http://www.elanvital.org.uk

June 2001
Dear all

I just wanted to write and update everyone on what is undoubtedly an
exciting time for us all in Europe. I also wanted to comment on some
recent publicity we have received in France.

As you know I have just begun as the new National Propagation Contact and
I look forward to working with everyone to help make the possibility of
knowledge available to more and more people in the UK.

I had the great privilege to hear Maharaji speak in Versailles and
Barcelona. Such wonderful and unique events!! I feel Nottingham is going
to be very special indeed.

Hope to see you all there,
John McClean

EUROPEAN TOUR
The European Event tour is now well underway with over 15,500 seats filled
in the events in the seven countries. The events in Versailles and
Barcelona were both very successful. Over one thousand guests attended
Maharaji's public address in Barcelona. Thanks are due to all those who
have made voluntary contributions towards the costs of these events.
Further support, especially in the case of Nottingham, is still needed and
we hope that through this further support we will be able to cover the
remaining costs.

ADDITIONAL SEATS
Additional seats have been made available for the 30th Anniversary
Celebrations at Nottingham by extending the seating area, so please spread
this message that people can still register for the Nottingham event.

RECENT PUBLICITY

Recently we have seen very negative reporting about Maharaji &Knowledge in
the media in France. This, it appears, is the result of a concerted
campaign by a very small but vociferous group of disgruntled individuals
who consider Maharaji to be a fraud and believe that Knowledge does not
work. Some people are very disappointed and feel let down when their own
particular expectations are not met.

I just wanted to write to let you know that Elan Vital very much regrets
the unfairness of the coverage in the French media, and concerted action
is being taken to counter these unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations.

We welcome public interest and scrutiny of all that we do. We welcome it
because we are deeply proud of what we do and what we stand for. For the
last thirty five years, thousands and thousands of people in over eighty
countries around the world find joy and fulfillment in their lives through
their practice of Knowledge and value Maharaji as the one who continually
helps them grow in this experience.

We very much support freedom of expression, and believe everyone needs to
come to their own conclusions.

GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT
Thirty years is a long time in the history of any organisation. We can be
proud of our record of accomplishment as non-profit organisations. We have
seen many changes for the better over those years and are going through a
healthy process of growth and change. Like any other organisation we can
look back and see that we may have been able to do things in a better way.
We recognise that the behaviour of each staff member and volunteer
reflects on us and have therefore developed and are scrupulously
implementing a code of ethics. This code of ethics is an expression of our
commitment to present Maharaji's teaching in a transparent and open way;
it encourages individuals to come and leave as they wish and commits to
the highest standards of behaviour and respect for the individual.

RIGHT OF REPLY
We are committed to dealing swiftly with any official complaint that any
individual may file with our organization, and to fully investigating
these complaints so as to establish the facts.

On the very rare occasions in the past where allegations have been made
against us, it is important to know that they have remained as just that,
i.e. allegations, without evidence to support them, and with no complaint
being filed with legal authorities. Elan Vital is fully committed to the
respect of all laws and to the full rigours of legislation being applied
to anyone found guilty.

Since 1966, when Maharaji started his work in the West, neither Elan Vital
UK nor any organisation with similar objectives has ever been found guilty
of any breach of laws anywhere in the world. We have a history we can be
truly proud of.

We have an amazing Master and we have the amazing gift of Knowledge. It
is a time to stand up and speak clearly and assertively about the value of
both in our lives.

Thank you for your time and interest.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 22:56:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: and then????
Message:
This one part:
concerted action is being taken to counter these unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations.

what is this exactly? What action and who is let in on the plan? They always do this say shit but don't say anything double speak creeps !!!!!

come on EV what concerted action are you taking you little sneakly cult members. Why the PR anyway, it's the best thing since fucking sliced bread right?

small but vociferous selene and I'll bet you do very much regret it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:17:02 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Coach
Subject: They welcome scrutiny? Not from my experience...
Message:
It says:

''We welcome public interest and scrutiny of all that we do.''

Then why are their financial records secret? Are they not proud of the way the money they collect is being spent?

Many churches have open books, even though they are not required to by law, because they are proud of what they are doing and want their donor's to see what their money is doing.

Two of my polite inquiries to Elan Vital as a long-time doner, were simply brushed off, by representatives who would not even give their names. How's that for pride?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:21:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Then they would open up their books.
Message:
'We welcome public interest and scrutiny of all that we do.'

Ok, Elan Vital, I am a member of the public and I would like to scrutinize your finances. I would like to see where the money goes, who gets it. So you will open your books, right?

I would like to see some photographs and some video clips of the darshan (devotees of the guru kissing his feet) that happened at a recent Elan Vital event in Australia.

I would like some detailed information of what happened at those secret Elan Vital seminars.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:49:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Divine Light Mission????
Message:
Hi Coach, Thanks for the update

We welcome public interest and scrutiny of all that we do. We welcome it because we are deeply proud of what we do and what we stand for. For the last thirty five years, thousands and thousands of people in over eighty countries around the world find joy and fulfillment in their lives through their practice of Knowledge and value Maharaji as the one who continually helps them grow in this experience.

It amazes me that Divine Light Mission is completely ignored in anything that's published about EV/M.

Isn't it refreshing that they welcome public interest and scrutiny? I guess that's why they need the backlash site (Pia's) and the announcement.

I feel very angry that EV can makes such statements while Maharaji has ignored for years that a pedophile(s)?? were under his control. I feel very sad for Abi, Susan and all the others who were so terribly abused, and then abused further by being ignored by the LEADER OF DLM/EV the REV. DO-BAD.

FUCK YOU MAHARAJI and all you EV creeps!

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:42:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: What pathetic crap
Message:
Recently we have seen very negative reporting about Maharaji &Knowledge in the media in France. This, it appears, is the result of a concerted campaign by a very small but vociferous group of disgruntled individuals who consider Maharaji to be a fraud and believe that Knowledge does not work. Some people are very disappointed and feel let down when their own particular expectations are not met.

action is being taken to counter these unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations.

A concerted campaign;

A small but vociferous group;

Their own particular expectations [were] not met;

Unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations.

Note that, like Pia's website, Mr. McClean does not deny, nor does he substantiate any of his statements. Although the allegations may be defamatory, maybe even unsubstantiated because EV and Maharaji never disclose any financial information, they are, nonetheless, not refuted. I'll ignore the 'concerted campaign' paranoia of Mr. McClean, but what about the rest of it?

McClean shows his hand that 'expectations' are not allowed if you want to say in the cult. Just what are these 'particualar (I guess as opposed to 'general') expectations' which were not met?

Well, let's see: I had an expectation of honesty from Maharaji as a 'master,' for example, and he has lied repeatedly. He is currently lying blantantly on EV's website about never having claimed to be God, for example. I also expected that he might have some morals when it came to using his worshipped position to get sexual favors from, too. Yes, I admit I had that expectation and Maharaji failed it.

I also expected that Maharaji, as my Master, might actually give a crap about his devotees, but his actions in regard to the ashrams, Pedophilia, DECA, families, etc., proved otherwise. This was another expectation that Maharaji failed miserably.

Knowledge also failed to bring me happiness and fulfillment. In fact, it was a dualistic pain in the brain, even after practicing it for 10 years. Of course, I only got this 'particular' expectation because I listened to Maharaji say if I practiced knowledge, it would bring beauty, happiness and fulfillment in my life. It didn't.

I also expected that spreading knowledge might be Maharaji's priority. But he just flies around preaching to the converted, and spending most of the cash he gets on yachts, planes and watch collections. Yes, this was a problem for me, seeing as I donated large (for me) sums of money to him for the purpose of 'saving the world,' not to gold-plate his toilet.

So, yes, he failed these expectations. Of course, if I was like Mr.McClean and didn't HAVE 'particular expectations' I might still be a premie, still miserable, and still chasing the fantasy and my imaginary friend, and still having money deducted from my credit card for God only knows what, because neither Elan Vital, nor Maharaji, reveals any of that information.

Which kind of life would you like to live?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:50:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'defamatory allegations'
Message:
'Unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations'

Defame means 'To damage the reputation, character, or good name of by slander or libel' or 'To render infamous; to bring into disrepute' or 'To charge; to accuse'.

Yes, we are accusing him of misconduct and we are damaging his reputation. But slander or libel? Which allegations are they claiming fit that description? They don't say. What evidence are they presenting? None. If they had a case they would take it to court. Let them, it would be funny. But of course they won't, because they don't.

As to 'Unsubstantiated', that is a lie. Many allegations have been substantiated, in fact, proven.

'...when their own particular expectations are not met.'

Here they are fucking with words. The hidden implication is that we, on our own, just made up our own 'particular' expectations without any influence from Rawat and Elan Vital/Divine Light Mission, further that all these expections (like expecting moral behavior and honesty) were all wrong. That is a lie, it's no wonder they don't come out and say it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:12:19 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Latest EeVee Stuff
Message:
What a load of contradictory rubbish!!

I just wanted to write to let you know that Elan Vital very much regrets the unfairness of the coverage in the French media, and concerted action is being taken to counter these unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations.

Nothing like being specific. Like what unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations? Huh??

We welcome public interest and scrutiny of all that we do.

I guess that's why EV is taking 'concerted action' against unspecified unsubstantiated, defamatory allegations.

We very much support freedom of expression, and believe everyone needs to come to their own conclusions.

See also 'concerted action is being taken', above

We recognise that the behaviour of each staff member and volunteer reflects on us and have therefore developed and are scrupulously implementing a code of ethics.

Jagdeo will be very happy to hear about this. How many children have to be abused, and how many decades have to go by before mahooey, staff members and volunteers are held accountable for their actions?

This code of ethics is an expression of our commitment to present Maharaji's teaching in a transparent and open way; it encourages individuals to come and leave as they wish and commits to the highest standards of behaviour and respect for the individual.

Too bad it took 30 years to develop. Pity the poor devoted flock in the ashrams who were virtually held captive emotionally, mentally, and verbally by mahooey and then unceremoniously released without a shred of respect or responsibility. And I wonder if all those women devotees of mahooey who were solicited for one night stands felt as if the highest standards of behaviour and respect for the individual were being applied?

We are committed to dealing swiftly with any official complaint that any individual may file with our organization, and to fully investigating these complaints so as to establish the facts.

I'm so sorry Abi, it appears that all these years have gone by simply 'establishing the facts'. Do you feel that your official complaints have been swiftly dealt with? And hey, it doesn't appear they are interested in justice, apologies, etc., just the facts.

On the very rare occasions in the past where allegations have been made against us, it is important to know that they have remained as just that,i.e. allegations, without evidence to support them,

Tricky language here. Evidence of child abuse? Like photos or a videotape? Only the pained and wounded testimonies of young adults who had the innocence of youth taken from them I guess. Didn't I hear something about highest standards of behaviour and respect for the individual somewhere?

Since 1966, when Maharaji started his work in the West, neither Elan Vital UK nor any organisation with similar objectives has ever been found guilty of any breach of laws anywhere in the world. We have a history we can be truly proud of.

Kind of like Nixon proudly declaring 'I am not a crook'.

We have an amazing Master and we have the amazing gift of Knowledge. It is a time to stand up and speak clearly and assertively about the value of both in our lives.

It would appear that the lastest missive from the Master to be loud and proud is in full swing. Surely this letter from MaClean and mahooey's call to arms is entirely in response to EPO (and the Combat article). These declarations are not coming from principle, these declarations are coming as a consequence of and in response to the information contained in this EPO site. The courageous people who put this site together and those who have come forward and posted here about their genuine and formerly repressed concerns have everything to be proud of. For any premies or fence-sitters reading this just remember, if any of the issues outlined here had been honestly, and respectfully dealt with (and no revisionism) there probably wouldn't have been an EPO. But I guess, only by his fruits shall you know you are in a cult.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:54:40 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Coach
Subject: Thanks, Coach
Message:
Thanks for posting that, Coach. EV doesn't include the webmaster on its mailing list, and this forum is the only place that I get to read this crap.

neither Elan Vital UK nor any organisation with similar objectives has ever been found guilty of any breach of laws anywhere in the world

The name 'Divine Light Mission' is apparently on EV's list of unmentionable terms.

Also unmentioned in their claim of a sqeaky-clean record are the 'allegations' that Mahatma Fakirand beat Patrick Halley senseless with a hammer. This went 'unproven' in court due to the fact that DLM illegally hustled him out of the country before he could be arrested, charged and convicted in court.

We have a history we can be truly proud of.

Only as long as EV is allowed to write that history themselves. Viva la France!

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:57:56 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, Coach
Message:
All part of the service, Brian. (no pun).

This part is a killer.

'We have an amazing Master and we have the amazing gift of Knowledge. It is a time to stand up and speak clearly and assertively about the value of both in our lives.'

Oh, how true, how true. Except the EeVeer's are disuaded at every turn from opening their mouths in case they bollox things up. Apart from those that have coughed up the readies for the seminar that'll turn them into fabulously fluent messengers of the mystic in a couple of days.

There's two possible scenario's we got here. Either they think we're stupid or they really are as stupid they sound. I can't even be bothered turning it over in my mind anymore.

Take care on the streets everyone.

Coach

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 13:46:45 (GMT)
From: Alan F.
Email: nonr
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks, Coach
Message:
Brian, you are still confused, Fakirand beat Haily, DLM didn't wield the hammer and DLM was never proven guilty, sure it was alleged, but DLM was never proven guilty, that they happned to be interested in getting him put out of the country is coincedental. DLM didn't abuse children -just its most sacred teachers in a place of trust. They allowed it to happen on their watch but no one in the 70's or 80's filled out the EV year 2000, child abuse-10a form back then. Any premie who believes absence of a guilty charge means your innocent is sorely misguided. With this document they have shown that they cannot be trusted. I guess M and OJ = 2 not guiltys in LA
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:37:05 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: EV Forum Monitor
Subject: Excuse me EV Forum Monitor.. What CRAP is this
Message:
'Recently we have seen very negative reporting about Maharaji &Knowledge inthe media in France. This, it appears, is the result of a concertedcampaign by a very small but vociferous group of disgruntled individuals who consider Maharaji to be a fraud and believe that Knowledge does notwork.

Some people are very disappointed and feel let down when their own particular expectations are not met.'

OWN PARTICULAR EXPECTATIONS
Where the fuck do you think we got them from you moron.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:06:17 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: EV is right:My particular expectation was not met.
Message:
I'm sorry that I had those expectations about m and EV, and it is true that they were not met.
But that's really my fault, and I realize the error of my ways now, thanks to the latest EV message.

I apologize for holding you to my own particular expectations that you were under no obligation to meet.

It's just that I assumed that HONESTY was something that a group that purports to be interested in the TRUTH, would uphold.

I guess not.

Once again, I'm sorry for laying a CONCEPT like HONESTY on you.

No one likes to be beholden to other people ideas.

I promise not to judge the master ever again, as I know how busy he is, and how these expectations bother him.

Once agin, thanks EV, for pointing out how wrong I really am.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 17:26:11 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Exactly la-ex !! nt
Message:
xx
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 15:48:05 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The medicine of la-ex. Irony-therapy. SO good.
Message:
Thanks - your tone, your excellent humour is like a rest cure for my crazed, cult-exiting brain.
- Scot
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:47:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Yes, ScotJ, la-ex is good for newbies
Message:
He helped me a lot when I was first exiting. I called him Ex-lax for cult constipation.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:44:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Latest EeVee Stuff
Message:
This, it appears, is the result of a concerted
campaign by a very small but vociferous group of disgruntled individuals
who consider Maharaji to be a fraud and believe that Knowledge does not
work.

What's this believe it doesn't work? Either it does or it doesn't. And who's to judge that if not people who have it, yet remain completely unimpressed?

Some people are very disappointed and feel let down when their own particular expectations are not met.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Whose expectations, if not my own, an I supposed to meet?

We very much support freedom of expression, and believe everyone needs to
come to their own conclusions.

Yeah, right. Just make sure you see it Maharaji's way, otherwise it's the wrong way, just something you 'believe'. And where are these forums for free discussion we keep hearing about on these premie websites? So much for free expression. All you get in EV these days is a bunch of sounding boards nobody can say boo to, because nowhere is there an opportunity to respond to anything they say or print, except here, of course. So come on down, John! We'd love to have ya!

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:58:41 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 'explanation' is a thought stopper
Message:
Hi Jerry ,

From the early days of the cult, we were programmed to not have expectations. M's satsang about Happiness= reality/expectations(you know that infinity crap). I also think the one about the monkeys putting a seed in the ground and checking (digging it up)it every day to see if it had grown was another way of telling us that we were having an experience whether we knew it or not..

So now a premie hears expectations and they know this is a NO NO

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:01:02 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Thanks for reminding me
Message:
Yeah, you got it right, Mr. Mind. Don't expect anything but be grateful for everything. It's enough to blow your mind. Er, maybe not your's Mr. Mind, since you are the mind of minds, but for us little, normal, abnormal, and subnormal minds, it sure does a heavy number on.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:04:04 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Meant to say 'expectations' but....(NT)
Message:
asdf
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 08:26:15 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Nottingham to be 'very special indeed'?
Message:
What can this possibly mean? Is John saying all events are special, but Nottingham will be especially special? How? Phase II finally starting? Will the hall take off and the aliens land?

It's funny how you never hear a premie say 'Versaille was ok, I guess, but M was having a bit of an off-day - too many worn-out metaphors. Sorry, but it simply wasn't very inspiring at all...'

There's something very weird in this stunted critical vocabulary (as also used by ELK) where appreciation may be graded to some extent, but only to say this event was even better than the last one (without giving a reason) but never the other way around.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:27:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Like the most smitten Deadhead
Message:
Good point, Nige. In the eighties, by chance did you ever try to get a tie-dyed-in-the-wool Deadhead to admit that one show wasn't as good as any other?
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 11:50:58 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nottingham - will there be darshan? I wonder..
Message:
I reckon he's going to try and hold onto the old premies, the ones who have been around since the beginning - after all it's his 30th anniversary. Will Jagdeo be there, too? Perhaps I should go after all...
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:00:44 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I got into trouble once ......
Message:
for saying that M was off form one day. You make a very good point Nigel. Even more insightful than your last post.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:42:31 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: J McClean, L Monnier: 'security' taking over!
Message:
Just a thought.

John McClean has been head of EV's 'security' for Europe at least, for over a decade.

Luc Monnier (France) has also been a security honcho for decades in France, now NC.

Both of them quite illeterate IMO, but what the heck! You don't need to think to do service and obey your master.

What's going on?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 22:04:38 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J McClean, L Monnier: 'security' taking over!
Message:
Sounds like the praetorian guard is forming up around the emperor . Watch out for them , they'll fight dirty .

Pat Dorrity.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:49:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Security guards:''watch out, they'll fight dirty''
Message:
Or else they might just sign anything that a PR person put in front of them, that is if it is approved by the market researchers and spin doctors working for Rawat Inc.

They're basically policemen and respect authority and will usually do as they are told unlike REAL spin doctors who have to use their minds creatively and deceitfully. Their balls are on the block.

I like the Animal Farm analogy. Pia is the Horse. These ''security'' guards are the dogs. The spinmeisters are the pigs and ''Napoleon'' sits in the farm house eating roast chicken with cognac.

But who is in the counting house counting out the money?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:04:55 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: K work, it relaxes me, MAHARAJI is the problem
Message:
I don't have to deal with anymore and taht is sooooo good.

It is sooooo nice to be a cult member, that is what I hear of your premies.

MAHARAJI, fuck you!

You bet I'm angry and the more you tell your premies to make these type of ridiculous statements the angrier I get because I realize that you have no scruples: You are falling lower and lower,greedy guru. You are scum! You, liar, soul snatcher, leech, coodependant idiot! Without your premies you are nothing and it's really sad that none of you are feeling what we Ex-Premies feel: Real Freedom. The tie that you created to make your followers depend on you makes you the worst of the worse. Low life.

So, the 'magic' comes from you, right? From 'that' connection between the teacher and the student, right? Do you remember maharaji when you use to talk about GOD? What happened? I'll tell you something. How is it that I feel more connected than ever to my essence? I'm alive again. I was dead maharaji; I thought I was alive but the emotional death was there..,even that I wanted to deny it. What about longing? I don't long anymore. I have LOVE and you don't. Who won, you moron? ME! I see you in court, face to face, some day, when is convinient TO ME! Oh is going to be fun to see you again...

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 23:13:25 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Silvia
Subject: ...MAHARAJI is the problem
Message:
Hi Silvia,

You missed the HappyGang ambush the other night from 'friends' of ItIsSo,SoThere site. I lashed out at Maharaji. I am giving all of this shit a lot of consideration and have definitely decided that I want to inform and warn the media and bring the BigHead and his media-spin circus into the light of day...would you like to talk about that? Email me stars@uvic.ca if you want to discuss particulars. Thanks, Hope you had a good break. I've had to let go and attend to my life, myself.

p.s. I have some good ideas and I'm ready

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 02:47:59 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: ...MAHARAJI is the problem AHA!! OT
Message:
I'm sending mail soon. Few minutes.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:27:25 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: there you are!
Message:
Thou Angel of wrath! It has been a while. (But I was out of town myself for 2 days).
One Question: should you be up at 3:00 at night?
I visit the forum at odd tomes when I can't sleep. Working shifts shrinks your brain as is proven. Better put the remaining neurons to good use!
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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 01:55:34 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: you are there too!
Message:
Hey Bob!

Checking in, saying hello....I'm fine, but busy.

I send my love to you!
Did you get my picture?

Bye now. :)

When r u leaving? Write some lines...

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:09:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Hell hath no fury.....you're up late
Message:
You tell him, Silvia! What will they do if he kicks the bucket? Crack up? Argue for ten years over whether Wadi or Daya won the oil-wrestling match in Malibu to see who was going to be the next Satgoorooo?
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:42:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: That's written much better than anything else
Message:
I read from EV in a long time. The new PR team's ''concerted effort'' (which, like Michael Mc, I bet includes Pia and the web elves who redesigned her site overnight) is doing fairly decent work.

I was quite surprised by the sudden revamp of Pia's site. It was changed overnight from a new agey pastel shades of grey artsy site into a business is business corporate look and feel site. All spit and polish and obviously given a make-over by professionals who know that artsy is too highbrow and EV is defintiely aiming at middle-brow, Middle America and it's overseas counterparts.

Artsy is harder to navigate and the new Pia site is designed for WebTV and AOL users and is designed in the ''magazine'' format. Lot's of money being spent on spin doctors, market researchers and PR people. The PR people of course have to be X-rated foot kissers because they're the only ones with the loyalty not to leak the dirt.

This piece of writing from EV is very well written. I doubt if this is Whittaker's work. It's quite savvy and confident compared with the hamfisted revisionism on the EV site. It's got balls but whose balls I don't know. I feel sorry for the writer because his balls are on the block.

The only thing that I disagree with the writer about is this: ''We have an amazing Master.''

I do not like the word ''we.'' It smacks of groupthink: ''we the proletariat,'' ''we the Borg,'' ''we the church,'' or ''we the cult.'' I'm an American first and foremost and cannot stomach such anti-individualist thought.

I also take offense at the word ''Master.'' Again as an American I find such silly feudalism, even if religious, completely antipathetical to my ideas of democracy, freedom and equality.

I do however agree that he is amazing - amazingly redundant, obsolete and anchronistic.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 00:28:06 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Savvy and confident plus balls....
Message:

...you're right about that Pat as you are about so much else .

Since I've been here the only premie poster who fits that description is one Danny . I know I've come across as a prat on many an occasion for identifying wrongly various entities as being him , but I did get it right once ages ago & here I am ,at it again looking the custard pie in the face .

He's been back in another thread but hasn't been confronted : probably just as well .

Signing off with 'skoal' , cheeky fucker , who does he think he is , the Prince of Denmark ?

Pat Dorrity.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:47:58 (GMT)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: That's written much better than anything else
Message:
Isn't there something in the Declaration of Independence about 'We the people'?

McD
Devil's Advokaat

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:11:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Michael McDonald, were you X-rated?...
Message:
I'm just curious, if you would care to comment on the X-rated phenomenon, and if you were X-rated or not.

I'm curious, since Mike Dettmers and Donner brought it up this year, and was wondering if you could/would shed more light on it.

Sincerely,
La-ex

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 07:05:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: ''We the people'' means ALL the citizens
Message:
regardless of ideological affiliation. It will eventually come to mean ''we the human race'' because it is the first and most revolutionary statement ever made. It is ultimately not about politics (although it was declared in a very political manner) or religion or any other man made group.

Anyway, don't argue with an American immigrant. We are worse than converts to a creed. My religion is secular humanism and the Declaration of Independence is my creed.

I was going to say; ''You're up late'' But that's because I'm up late. What time is it in Oz?

PS Don't you think it was better written than most EV missives?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:54:23 (GMT)
From: Alan F.
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Latest EeVee Stuff
Message:
'Since 1966, when Maharaji started his work in the West, neither Elan Vital
UK nor any organisation with similar objectives has ever been found guilty
of any breach of laws anywhere in the world. We have a history we can be
truly proud of.'

Now thats an interesting statement, I wonder where his research is from? Is it that the orginzations haven't been found guilty only members (catholic priests have been arrested but I can't remember anyone arresting the catholic church). What whould it take to find an organization guilty? For that matter I don't think there are any corporations in america that are in jail, maybe an individual here or there. I wonder how M feels, O.J. Simpson can make the same claim - he was never found guilty. Many people believe he may have committed the crime. Not guilty does not equal innocent. Are they proud because they were never found guilty?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 08:22:18 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Alan F.
Subject: Latest EeVee Stuff
Message:
'Since 1966, when Maharaji started his work in the West, neither Elan Vital UK nor any organisation with similar objectives has ever been found guilty of any breach of laws anywhere in the world. We have a history we can be truly proud of.'

I didn't know maharaji started his work in the west when he was 8 years old or that Elan Vital UK or Elan Vital anywhere existed then.

Didn't m start his work in the west when he was 13 or 14, and the organization was called DLM?

It could be just my interpretation. I took starting his work to mean when he actually came to the west and I suppose DLM could come under the 'nor any organization with similar objectives', but don't Elan Vital, even though there is a legal name change from one to the other, claim absolutely no association with DLM?


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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 05:27:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Maybe he was on the psychic friends network
Message:
Hodooing us and jujuing us from afar, starting his work on us at at the tender age of 8, from a distance, so that when he actually burst of the scene we would come to him like moths to a flame! To the amazement of our family and friends, for whom it was like talking to one of the zombies in 'The Night of the Living Dead.'

Souls singed and burning for the love of the flaming filament.

Just a few name changes and locations short. Hey, revisionism is the game, filament's the flame. I only wish someone actually did have a good court case against these people and their queen bee of a leader. It would be so funny to watch them try to figure out what the facts were. Tell enough lies, can't remember the truth.

love, f

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 12:02:09 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Souls singed and burning for love
Message:
of the flaming filament.

Loved it Francesca.

Methinks I have been burnt to a crisp!

Another thing I noticed in this inclusive letter of John's was the use of the word 'we' a lot. Who are all these wees? I thought EV stated there were no members, being evidence that it wasn't a cult.

PS I have really liked all your posts Francesca, they have given me lots to think about and reflect upon.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:19:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Yeah, I was guilty of we, we at one time too
Message:
Years ago in LA, I was talking to Harry Payne (one of the few black premies in the community in the late 70s [I was transferred to the SF ashram in 1980]) and used the word 'we.' Harry stopped me cold. He says, 'We? What do you have, a mouse in your pocket???'

Great line. Have no idea where Harry is, but I hope he's lost the juju too.

love, f
PS -- enjoy your posts too. You're one of the posters I look for.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:59:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: ...or Tattoo of Fantasy Island was channelling him
Message:
no room for NT so...

...or perhaps Rod Serling channelled him on Twilight Zone.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:41:04 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Anth, this isn't true is it?
Message:
On the very rare occasions in the past where allegations have been made against us, it is important to know that they have remained as just that, i.e. allegations, without evidence to support them, and with no complaint being filed with legal authorities.

Wasn't Abi's allegation against Jagdeo reported to the UK police?

John.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 09:29:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Allegation'
Message:
Allege v. to claim that someone has done something wrong, typically without proof.

Rape v 1 (of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with him against their will. 2. spoil or destroy (a place). n. 1 an act or the crime or raping someone.

Peadophile n. a person who is sexually attracted to children.

Mahatma n. 1 (in the Indian subcontinent) a holy person or sage. 2. (in some forms of theosophy) a person in India or Tibet said to have preternatural powers. (Great soul)

Cult n. 1 a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object.

Damage n. 1 physical harm impairing the value, usefulness, or normal function of something.

Humanity n. 2 compassion or benevolence

Inhumane adj. without compassion for misery or suffering


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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 03:04:14 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: this pisses me off too...
Message:
more of their amazing ability to blame the victim in all situations.

If the allegations they are referring to are mine and Abi's their smugness is beyong cold and callous. Abi was 7 and and the child of premies, I was 15 and a devoted premie who would NEVER have reported a Mahatma to the police. Since Jagdeo did such a truly excellent job of preying on kids who believed in the guru...the cult can now brag that he never was convicted of a crime and hurt us yet again.

Be proud EV!!! What amazing integrity you show!!!

Hope no one you ever loved was hurt by a criminal who never was convicted of his crime.

Elan Vital....rubbing salt in wounds of those who dare to speak out since 1971....

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 17:50:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Susan and Abi
Subject: this pisses me off too...
Message:
They said: 'allegations, without evidence to support them ...'

As Jim said, the whole thing is an insult to you both and any other abuse victims. Allegation is a neutral word, but in the context of covering their asses they have insinuated that there are no facts to back up the allegations made against EV and Jagdeo. Just because it has not been 'proven,' they agressively state that they are off the hook. And the idea that they would deal with these things swiftly is absurd. They cover up swiftly. And do the exact opposite of helping to prove whether the allegations are true or not, and deal with them honorably. If they want to be clean, they can, but refuse to come clean at every opportunity.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement that if more publicity were shed on this, other victims would come forward, just as with sexual abuse by the Catholic priests. My never-a-premie mother and sister thought of the same thing when I told them about you and Abi several months ago. Of course, the Catholic Church is a bigger cult. But this site, EPO and Sir Dave are doing an honorable job at keeping up the noise. Perhaps Pia's page will get some more premies to surf the 'net.

Frankly, M is globablly such a small cult fish these days, even though he's making millions, that he and EV are hoping they can put up enough of a smokescreen and slide though the holes in the net. The Combat article has turned up the heat.

In dealing with lawsuits at work, the 'other side' sometimes does what I call the squid thing. Octopusses are supposed to be able to extrude black inky stuff into the water. The opposing side just starts squirting a lot of black ink into and around the whole issue, hoping to get the court off the threshold questions, or the main point of the whole thing. (I once saw an entirely and obviously meritless case drag on for several years at the costs of thousand of dollars, until the judge finally actually read our attorneys' briefs and said 'duhhh!!!!) Of course, if they have a good case, they don't have to resort to such damage control tactics. It's a sign that they don't.

They have nothing affirmative to say about themselves or their 'Master' except that no one has hauled any of them into a court and proven them guilty, or filed charges against them with the authorities. And of course, as Joe stated, some people have won inidividual lawsuits against them on various grounds, probably more than we know about, so even this is a lie. (In the US, state trial court decisions are not reported, and are not cases of record. And not all cases at the appellate level are published, either. Trial courts are starting to put stuff online, but I'm not sure the old stuff will ever see the light of day.)

The fact that EV would rub salt in your wounds by publicly declaring that a young child (Abi) or a teenage under the age of 16 (you), who has just been gobsmacked by something that they don't even understand should file a complaint with the authorities that would be fresh enough to stick, is galling. Sorry this is lengthy, but several people close to me are victims of terrible sexual child abuse, and they were afraid to tell anyone until it was way too late to do anything about the perpetrators. It is an ugly, ugly secret that often doesn't come to light until the best that can be done is to deal with it oneself, which both you and Abi are doing admirably.

Love to you both, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:06:30 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Susan and Abi
Subject: this pisses me off too...
Message:
Were I in yours or Abi's position, I would have been consumed and destroyed by my own rage. Involvement in violent conflict over an unrelated matter, or overuse of mood altering chemicals would almost certainly have killed me by now.

Those with authority and powers within the cult may have been completely innocent of any complicity in the original crimes. But once the leaders had grounds for concern, their lack of action, and their mealy-mouthed circumlocutions mark them out as being co-conspirators in an abuse ring. Not as direct abusers themselves, but still with an essential role in a silent (?) conspiracy of abuse as enablers, knowingly providing alibis and smokescreens for the abuse to continue.

It is the rage of powerlessness that destroys. If there is any action that may succeed, any possibility to fight back and prevail, then the rage can be turned outwards to find its proper use in struggle against the oppressor. One cannot doubt that you and Abi have already brought hope and relief to agonised hearts.

Utmost respect.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 16:35:47 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: thank you for you supprt John
Message:
I do not think that so many years later authorites are going to want to get involved. Abi and I also both live very far from where the original events occured. We have both reported what went on despite this ( contrary to what EV says ) but I can understand how a legal agency ( lets say the Miami police ) might feel their resources are best spent trying to deal with protecting children that are being abused now. Frankly, I have to agree.

Lawsuit wise, I can only speak for myself. I will say again, if you read what I posted, I was not in any way abused as severly as the other kids, I myself feel it would not be a good case given the years that have gone by. I can however, help others, and would.

Press wise, in my mind, is the best tactic. I think all we need is a little press on Jagdeo in Britain or the US and the floodgate of victims would spill forth much as did the victims of the Catholic priests and moonie kids after the initial press. I am certain though that EV knows it wasn't just me and Abi, and EV knows of more victims ( or at least the upper echelons of EV ). That is what makes this so reprehensible. They know it is true more than anyone, and yet they persist in trying to deny it in these oblique ways. It does enfuriate me, and I am sure Abi. More people are going to come forth with time and publicity. EV should be really careful about what they say in light of that.

If you read about the Krishna kids, who were so seriously abused, and the struggle they have fought to get their cult to deal with it, it is interesting with time the cult ( krishna ) had stopped really denying what happened to those kids. Mostly, because they were forced to by the scope of the abuse. The lawsuit the Krishna's are facing could obliterate that cult. But I think that the fact that the cult is not denying what happened to those kids at this point must at least bring a tiny bit of justice to those survivors and makes me think that Krishnas have more courage than premies.

But, the Krishnas were dealing with a MUCH bigger scandal, more pervasive with more perpetrators, and many more victims. It would have been harder to blame the victim with so many victims speaking out. So it may not be the the Krishna cult is any more courageous, it might be they were just trapped in a way EV isn't, yet.

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Date: Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 01:59:56 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Reports to legal authorities
Message:
I think that Elan Vital and those in legally responsible positions within that organization, past and present, ought to give serious consideration to maintaining the position that no one has ever filed a complaint against the organization or Captain Rawat with legal authorities. Pat Halley comes to mind. So does Anth's report to the Cornwall police about Unity School.

Is this unalterable statement legally defensible?

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 07:29:58 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: British police are investigating Unity School UK
Message:
according to Repost Anth and EV's Glen Whittaker in regards to Jagdeo allegations evidence has been made available to the British Police.

I have to confess that I have not read the detail of these matters. Perhaps that is a cop out, but for me, just to consider the violation of trust and abuse of authority involved is enough. I guess I'm a hardliner in that I feel it is an abuse for an adult to do anything to a child for the adult's benefit, rather than that of the minor.

The authorities here investigate cases decades in the past. One reason is, that it is very difficult for abusers to set up a safe haven to exploit, and consequently, once abuse has a foothold in an organisation it tends to continue until it is confronted. Also, I understand that adult perpetrators do not do these things once or twice and then desist. They continue with their peculiar sexual activities as long as they are able. To the extent that is true, an investigation of events decades in the past may lead to busting a currently active abuse ring.

Experience has shown that very many more individuals than actually make a complaint have evidence of benefit to the prosecution in cases like these. So, even twenty or thirty years on, the British police may contact every child who was in an institution or part of an organisation to enquire whether they had experiences, or have knowledge or evidence which supports an allegation of sexual abuse at that institution.

Any Unity School parents or pupils who may have evidence of sexual abuse there or in EV generally may be assured the Britsh police will listen and take note.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:01:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: That definition's wrong
Message:
Allege v. to claim that someone has done something wrong, typically without proof.

Hi Abi,

Hope you're well and Enjoying Life without Knowledge. I don't buy that last part of the definition, though. I think an allegation, like an accusation, is a neutral word in that there's no implication, one way or the other, as to its veracity. Thus, I don't think it's the least bit offensive to characterize your own accusations (or Susan's, etc.) as 'allegations'. They are and, as any intelligent person who knows the facts must agree, they're true ones at that.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:26:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What happened to the public apology?
Message:
I agree, a connotation that there is no proof is not usually part of the meaning of allegation. To have that connotation, it needs to be preceded with 'mere' or some other word.

allegation

allege

'before proof' does not imply that there is no proof, just that it hasn't been presented yet.

It looks like Rawat is going back on his word that there would be a public apology.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:39:47 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: G
Subject: wordsmiths
Message:
Cannot fault either of you guys on logic or semantics. But wily wordsmiths (such as poets and spinners and other such lowlifes) also exploit implicit meanings, rimes, connotations, even rhythms and omissions.

There are many words that one can choose to use to describe a true statement. To use of the word allegation in such a context is to pick a broader and less precise term than could be used. That is worthy of note, I think.

If, in the course of a conversation, one were to say
Yes, that's the allegation
it would be heard as meaning something quite different to
And that's a fact!
particularly if the last word were to receive special stress (and this can be contrived even in writing by use of rhythm). That an allegation may also be true would likely be lost on a reader of the two contrasted statements. That liklihood rises to a near certainty were the statements to be placed by context as alternatives to each other.

EV spinners systematicly use a broad term which has several meanings one of which lets the cult off the hook. The narrow semantic content can be defended. But context (inter alia) is used so the reader is likely to infer another much broader meaning.

There is something rotten working hard for the cult to cover up the abuse. That is consistent with a desire by the cult to see the abuse continue.

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Date: Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 08:52:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I think you're confused a bit, John
Message:
If, in the course of a conversation, one were to say
Yes, that's the allegation
it would be heard as meaning something quite different to
And that's a fact!

No one said otherwise. Instead I was just saying that allegation is neutral in terms of likelihood of being true. An allegation is just as likely to be true as otherwise without more information. I think you could say the same thing about accusation or criticism or complaint. None of them, on their own, hint at whether or not they're true.

A rumour, on the other hand, would be more likely false than true.

Saying something's a fact, however, is, of course, already assuming that it's true. That's not exactly what we were talking about.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, I dunno Jim ...
Message:
... it's probably just the weed.

freakin' skunk oughta be illegal

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 10:50:33 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Dear Abi
Message:
I'm sorry that you are still being demeaned in this way. It really sucks.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:10:07 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Copy of FA's message to me in e-mail (1st para)
Message:
'Michele,

I will not post your pre-vow messages. I wouldn't have
anyhow, but now that you're having doubts about
holding Maharaji in high regard, I strongly feel your
next course of action is something very personal to
you.'
From Michele: It is my belief that FA is a plant of Elan Vital -- otherwise s/he would assist me, knowing full well I have intentions that are honorable.)

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:40:55 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: The FAs are EV plants?
Message:
Well I guess we're in DEEP shit then! Oh fuck!

Michele what the hell are you smokin'? Can you send me some?:)

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:13:08 (GMT)
From: barney - the flame nettle
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Bazza
Subject: Ok, ok, ok! I was a fucking plant
Message:
I admit it. Just stop talking about me, will ya? Move on. Get a wife.

All I had to do was send a few lewd emails to the Forum females, add a dash of disruption, and whatever else and I got one of Maharaji old Benzs with leather seats and everything. And front row seats at three programs.

I'd do it again in a minute.

Maharaji, they know not how much power you have come with this time.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:51:29 (GMT)
From: Ana T
Email: None
To: NO NO NO * I am the plant
Subject: Ok, ok, ok! I was a fucking plant
Message:
Barney,

You know full well that I reign as ~Plant Supreme~ and I shall not usurp my position!!!

Now I must run and organize my cell groups.

Ana ;-)

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:52:05 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Ana T
Subject: Ana, we be bad! All the best to ya! (nt)
Message:
;lkj
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 04:55:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: barney - the flame nettle
Subject: Yeah sack the FAs, they suck
Message:
bloody potato plants they are.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:40:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: you are acting like an idiot
Message:
and yet are a constant inspiration to me of the patience of others here on this site. The FA s were doing you a favor not to kick your ass outta here, IMO.

You think it's cool to repost personal email, you think running down for dead someone on a road is equal to addiction to a psychedelic, this is all I know of you after reading your posts again after a week or so of getting fed up.

Are you ever going to be a real person here?

yuck.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:16:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you are acting like an idiot
Message:
Selene,

I agree that posting personal e-mails are not the best you can do in a public place like this. Michele just have to learn by her mistakes.

Maybe you will eat my head for this, but she (Michele) seem to have a lot of conflicting issues to resolve. I know that I was one of the first that turned on her 2 or 3 weeks ago. But I have I must say I had to adjust my visor a bit because I have noticed that she is not a rude person at all, am talking premie wise, neither she is ramming satsang in out throats, though some my object. I really think that she wants to have an honest conversation accept she doesn't know how do it or where to start.

Also, as a premie, Michele can only talk from where she is standing, which is m's shadow. That can be a turn off. As you know she is a disgrunted premie that can't voice her thoughts anywhere. EV rejects her, Pia is a piss artist, so this place is the only mean for her to do it and she is getting the flack for it. I wonder how long I will last if I was in her place. Got to give her credit for that, que se tiene cojones.

Ok, you may shoot now and talk later,

Love to you ( a lot in case I got you pissed off).

salam

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 06:58:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, I agree. Michele is no phoney. She's real.
Message:
I have been rude to her (but it was a mistake and I apologised.) Eventhough I can't stand her UFO stuff, and have told her so, I have known for a while that she is absolutely sincere and trying to be as truthful as she can be. She is having to face a lot.

It can't be easy to suddenly find that no one here respects her ideas and worse EV detests her too. And Rev Rawat couldn't give a shit about her. I think she needs all the friends she can get right now and I am so pleased to see you be sympathetic to her because she will not read my posts anymore.

Michele, if you do read this post, believe me when I say that I hear you loud and clear even if we will have to agree to disagree on many things. I hear your sincerity.

As for the FA being a plant. I went through a period of seeing different people here as plants including the FA but when my emotions calmed down I saw things the way they are. Pretty straightforward. It takes time to figure out the politics of FV because it is so open and undefined.

I'm still a bit paranoid occassionally and think that you may be playing more innocent than you appear but I don't really believe that. Okay? I wish you well.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 12:39:42 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Michele. Please stop being nasty to PatC
Message:
and read his posts.

There you go mate.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:00:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Thanks Salam....................................NT
Message:
l
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 20:12:41 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It's alright
Message:
Glad it made you feel better. And for JC sake STOP blaimming yourself for all the evil in this world. Did not you know, it's all haharajis fault anyway, so there,

Cheers

Salam

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 21:46:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: It's alright - the guilt and self esteem issue
Message:
RE: ex's and -
Self esteem and getting our egos knocked to shit for years.
This is not just another personal anecdote, I feel it is an issue for me and maybe other ex's but of course, given the issue I can't start a new thread :) :)
Lately I keep gettng the same lesson over and over. A few months ago I went into my boss's office crying. He is the most wonderful person. I told him 'I'm not learning Java fast enough, I am not this enough, not that enough' told him I needed a demotion and a 'dumb' job. He was astounded and said NO ONE else saw me that way and that I was being WAY too hard on myself.

The strangest part about this story is, as soon as I got it all out I started learning so fast, am up to speed and being asked to do more harder crap (hmmm) and I have to wonder I mean I was in one form of involvement or another in the cult since 1972 and all those belief systems, what did they do to me? again, I am not going to blame M for all my crap. But what part did that play and no premie can tell me his cult helped that is NOT the case I am asking more about how it hurt.

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 11:58:09 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: techie doubts -ot-
Message:
Yeah, know that one, it's a drag. Computers are the most complicated artifacts ever devised by humans, and that's a fact. It means they can always leave us feeling ignorant and inadequate, especially if the tools themselves are buggy (I hate that).

I'm (quietly) amazed that people think I know what I'm doing. Mainly I just thrash around (being careful not to break anything) until I get something to work. But I've come to the view that if it makes management happy to think I know what I'm doing, heck, who am I to disabuse them!

You're probably every bit as good as your co-workers think.

xJT

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Date: Sun, Jun 10, 2001 at 19:03:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: yeah damned machines -ot-
Message:
It's weird how I am even doing what I am doing, always feel like I am faking it. Some of the people I work with have a natural liking for the problem solving aspects etc. I could care less although I do enjoy programming *with* someone (my friend and I swear at the computer screen more than I have been on here)

Loaf expressed a lot of it in the thread up top. I'm still having growing pains! Thanks for the vote of confidence JohnT.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:23:43 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: aww fuck it (am swearing a lot lately)
Message:
After all I know for a fact I am full of shit and only can hope to trust myself one of these days.

That is all I ask. I can't even imagine being able to really know where anyone else in cyberland is coming from, not really.

I've been mean to her I suppose. I think the FA's don't need more attacks tho, after all they have me.

check out my AG post. lots of love to you as well, hey you are one of the FEW to handle my fuck yous with such grace. I am impressed.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 05:50:30 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: aww fuck it (am swearing a lot lately)
Message:
look like Michele is not the only one that need help here.

What am, a peace negotiator or somethin?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 18:19:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: of course I need help what is your point?
Message:
And no I'm asking you to negotiate for me. I don't think she and are fighting. I haven't read many of her posts so don't have the whole picture.

I really meant what I said, I'm not in a position to judge anyone right now for sure, but sometimes someone posts something that is irritating to me. This FA as premie plant stuff is one of those triggers.

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:09:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hey, take it easy
Message:
Am not arrguing with you. Lighten up a bit, that was supposed to be a joke you silly girl.
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:14:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I'm working on it Salam
Message:
I knew you were joking and I didn't mean to sound so harsh.

I Must be getting over the cold huh :) My father used to say that to me after I had been sick , something like 'well I can tell you are getting better you are mouthing off again' dear old dad, ugh
isn't that holiday coming up too? will they never give us a break from these holidays?

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 19:38:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: agree
Message:
you need to have a holiday from them holidays, yes ma'am,

Be good, Pia sucks

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:22:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Let it cook
Message:
Just be with it. Whatever it is. Let it settle in. Take it easy! love, f
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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:53:40 (GMT)
From: Michele Deradune
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Let it cook -- Yes! And TURN UP THE HEAT
Message:
FA: I can take it. Can you take it, FA?

Francesca: Very wise words. Let it be. Nice. Thank you. =)

'I would do anything for love. I would do anything for love. I would do anything for love, but I won't do that.' -- Meatball

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 14:17:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Mee-Shell, My Belle, these are words that...
Message:
I forgot the rest of the Lennon/Mccartney tune, but I'm sure I've got your attention now.

This is your old buddy La-ex, the one you've got a soft spot for.

Can you explain this a bit more? (The beef with the FA)

Also, how's your website coming along?
I'd love to contribute from time to time, possibly as a guest editorialist or something similar...
I think we can all have fun, grow, and get closer to the Truth with every step...

Be well,
La-ex

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Date: Fri, Jun 08, 2001 at 03:56:50 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Michele Deradune
Subject: Its 'I would do anything for Loaf' . (NT, OT, )
Message:
Hi Pat.
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