Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:28:03 (GMT)
From: Jun 11, 2001 To: Jun 20, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Joe -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:08:57 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:56:21 (GMT)
__ Mr. Williams -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:14:40 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Have you noticed that YOU are on OUR site? -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Mr. Williams - Go back and read it AGAIN! sheesh -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:39:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:19:31 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Interesting that you use a list of what M/EV isn't -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- hit and run artist, this is not true -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- hit and run artist, this is not true -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just more hit and run eh? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:53:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Just more hit and run eh? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:18:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charles Sprague -:- EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Yes, astute observation... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:50:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah, Fran? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Doesn't reason about M and K -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Oh yeah, Fran? Is Mr Williams weaseling out? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- learning from a 'living' teacher -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Anderson -:- Very funny, Roger -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:00:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Oops, Joe, I forgot about the modern trappings -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:28:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't beat yourself up Pat, you've actually ... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The Inner Cult vs External Trappings -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- The Inner Cult vs External Trappings -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- 'Never doubt the purity of the Master. Never.' -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- The Inner Cult vs External Trappings -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:55:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You tell 'em Joe! Another Good One! n/t -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Excellent post JOE :o)))))))))))))))))))))) n/t -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact.. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Willams -:- Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact.. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:50:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- You forgot on your promoted list ,the -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:45:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:47:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a funny thing to say! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Mr Williams is correct in saying -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:54:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Mr Williams is correct in saying -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:37:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Mr Williams is correct in saying -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Mr Williams and Angel, two very interesting posts -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:13:20 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT)
__ salam -:- great stuff -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:02:29 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- bravo bravo Joe, fantastic 9 (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:15:39 (GMT)
__ Mark -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:52 (GMT)
__ Way -:- A clear and valid analysis -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:07:15 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- ** The Most Outstanding Post Ever on this Forum ** -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- ** The Most Outstanding Post Ever on this Forum ** -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- FA-doesn't this deserve a place on homepage?nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:37:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Clarification -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:51:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Life in Latvia (again off topic) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Life in Latvia (again off topic) I fancy buying a -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:23:35 (GMT)

Henry -:- New ex, writing journey, any tips? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:02:59 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Hey there, Henry! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:01:20 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Greetings, Henry -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ Henry -:- Thanks for tips, 4 pages into it now -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 05:16:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Henry, for your curriculum vitae cultorum -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:01:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Hi again, Henry -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:09:17 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Wish I could help but haven't written mine yet -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:22:45 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- Hi Henry! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:27:42 (GMT)
__ salam -:- New ex, writing journey, any tips? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:16:19 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- New ex, writing journey, any tips? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:18:56 (GMT)
__ __ Sorry, me again -:- Forgot something.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:25:01 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Welcome Henry -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:40:34 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- New ex, writing journey, any tips? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Welcome Henry! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:54:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Welcome Henry! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:29:53 (GMT)

Salam -:- Really Pia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:45:57 (GMT)
__ Mr. Williams -:- Yes, Jim, Jim Sander, et. al., this is the kind of -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:25:36 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- oh, we got one -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- I know what you mean but Salam just takes a bit of -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- I know what you mean but Salam just takes a bit of -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:11:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr PatC -:- I'll email you MISTER Salam - NT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:04:03 (GMT)

Moldy Warp -:- Furipous ex-premie org. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:00:28 (GMT)
__ Fred -:- WOW!!! What a amazing site this is! -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:58:32 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Glad it tickled your fancy as long as it didn't -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- tickled my fancy but managed to avoid peeing! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:33:22 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- ROFL nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:59:20 (GMT)

Bob -:- premies and new age -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:02:31 (GMT)
__ Lurker #27 -:- New age? My eye!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:36:20 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- William James -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:19:14 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- ***Above Average Of Forum*** -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What's your point? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:41:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- New thoughts are always like, ridICULED? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, but so are bad ones -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:39:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Yeah, but so are good ones -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:43:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Naw, you missed my point (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:49:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lurker #27 -:- Jim, it's easy to criticize and ridicule (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- especially when something's ridiculous (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:27:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Maybe if you quit with the quotes ....... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:03:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- They never reply to the point.......(NT) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:49:08 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Bobby: re 'new age' -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:38:28 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- 'new age' -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, check out Rawat's own newageisms! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- But Jim -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:40:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I guess I've fallen and I can't get up (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:42:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey, check out Rawat's own newageisms! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:33:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- And Shri Hans writing to JFK (!!!) in 1961... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:49:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- And Shri Hans writing to JFK (!!!) in 1961... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:04:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Bob - here's how you find it... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:26:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What about Sharon Stone's husband then? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Beware Jim .. you see you need to keep the current -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:35:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Komodo (OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Komodo (OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:25:36 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- rather than a class action suit.. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:22:20 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Why don't we all write to one paper, mag, etc.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:50:23 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Journalism reviews in the US (and maybe UK?) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Katie, who is translating? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Don't know - some have volunteered, I think (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:50:01 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- I agree Mind -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:34:47 (GMT)
__ premijiplus1 -:- rather than a class action suit.. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- EXCUSE ME...Who do you think you're talking too... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:08:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ viet vet survivor -:- EXCUSE ME...Who do you think you're talking too... -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 03:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You apparently missed the IRONY -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia Ex-premie Ji -:- Your GURU is too rich and took our money -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:22:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Good one Silvia /NT -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:12:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- A teacher to tell you you are alive! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- We must be your mirror -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- voodoo doll -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:39:10 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- mirror, mirror here's your call -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ nagual rain -:- rather than a class action suit.. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:03:43 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- ***Excellent Post*** nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:30:30 (GMT)

The Questioning Angel -:- That little piece of wire -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:03:46 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- That little piece of wire -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:38:21 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- listen cult member -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Silvia - this person is a guest ... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ silvia -:- You are right -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:58:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Hi Silvia - teenage reverse psychology -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 16:41:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- exactly what I was thinking Katie -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Someone give Silvia a program -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ silvita -:- get a grip, you STRONG being. nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- ?? NT -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Thanks, Jim, and PatC -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:45:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You were my first tickle of amusement this morning -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi Angel, English is second language for Silvia -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Then my apologies to Silvia -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 05:01:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- compassion as a second language -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:52:50 (GMT)
__ SuchaBanana -:- B careful:puppet wires,fake massa/slave strings(nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:57:38 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- We Are those Lights that light up all humans. (nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:51:58 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- The Doubt Fairy -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- The Doubt Fairy -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:06:04 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- That little piece of wire -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:15:23 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- If you believe in God, is (s)he really that MEAN? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:57:48 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- The broken filament: Yes, he is a DIM BULB -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:46:43 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Excellent and funny post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:22:19 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- That little piece of wire -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:52:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Where'd you get that from? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:16:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- It is a geological fact and about us being there, -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:56:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Silly you -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:52:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- fundamentalist crap -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:28:23 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- IMO -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:57:55 (GMT)
__ toby -:- who cares? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:00:26 (GMT)
__ __ SIlvia -:- who cares?Not premies-They love THEIR GODmaharachi -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:52:20 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- What a pretty post, Angel -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:38:32 (GMT)

Patricia A. Johnston -:- Realities ... Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:00:53 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Realities ... Jagdeo -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:56:41 (GMT)
__ Pia Greenbum -:- So true, so beautiful -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Hi Pea, pee, sorry, Pia -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:48:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Could someone please arrange -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:16:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Irony supplement are sorely needed -- yas n/t -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:47:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- See my post to you above, Angel - ESL.......... NT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:40:53 (GMT)
__ __ Pea Greenbrain -:- So true, so beautiful - I knew you'd like it, sis -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moronic Amoeba -:- she can't hear you she's absorbed us and now -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC channelling Cosmic -:- Ectoplasm - that was the sucking sound - burp NT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mold, slowly being sucked -:- My God - she's an absorber from THE OTHER SIDE !NT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:51:32 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Here's your problem in a 'nutshell', Patricia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:39:55 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- OH JIM -- That is so funny....Ha ahh, ahh, HAHAHA -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Dinner is Served: It's dog eat dog At Johnson's -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:11:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ SuchaBanana smOOthie -:- hurry: git yer roasted carrot dogs,soyburgers! (nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:44:57 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Come again,Pat A. Johnston... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:45:20 (GMT)
__ __ Patricia A. Johnston -:- 'Bye. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Kewl sheeeeit! My Dead Zone just woke up! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:11:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- This is a joke - eh?.....**BEST of FORUM** -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ MissPrint -:- should read **BEST LAUGH on FORUM** /nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Patricia's email address is wrong -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Patricia's email address is wrong - yes it's fake -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:22:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- psycho -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:50:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- psycho or a budding writer for SNL -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- 99 percent of us don't believe in saviours -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Patricia.. Listen. The New Age is like the Dark -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:53:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Good riddance, newage bubble girl! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Patricia.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:15:38 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Realities ... Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:20:22 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Realities ... Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:43:39 (GMT)
__ nagual rain -:- Realities ... Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- You're inventing situations -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:05:29 (GMT)
__ mark fury -:- drink koolaid,believe in jesus,eat cheerios -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:15:28 (GMT)
__ janet -:- choking on new age psychobabble from other people -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:33:42 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Brilliant, janet -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ pemieji+1 -:- choking on new age psychobabble from other people -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Wot no spam tonite? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:32:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Silvia Sommer -:- And who are you? Who asked your opinion? -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:30:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Why stop at the limbs? --- Flake off, loser---nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:50:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Psychobabbler!! You didn't answer me -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi JohnT -- (Personal message OT) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:53:52 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Patricia says: Wisdom starts in the dark of Satan -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Er, Pat -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:46:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- John, I thought maybe you used a NewAge-olizer -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Funny you should mention that. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 09:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- NewAge-olizer may work for non-premies but -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Very funny (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- and arti says medit. begins in the form of our -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:46:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC channelling Thelma -:- I wish to god you had written Patricia's post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:51:44 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji's poison -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:54:25 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- Welcome to the Twilight Zone -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:18:51 (GMT)
__ __ MK -:- I'll take question 2) again Baz -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:34:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Just curious ...... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ MK -:- Mainly this... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I only hope that's true (OT) -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:45:11 (GMT)
__ Excuse me, due back -:- on planet Earth nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:10:36 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:08:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
A woman who does counseling for ex-cult members, Jan Groenwald, and who has worked a lot with Dr. Margaret Singer, has come up with a 'universal definition' of a cult, and a list of cult characteristics. I picked 14 of them, that I think apply to the Maharaji cult quite clearly. What do you think? Perhaps Ms. Winter over on the It Ain't So site should address these.

Note that they do not include Jonestown or Heaven's Gate-style weirdness, although they are weird. A cult does not have to imprison people or hound them daily for compliance to be a cult. No, a cult is really quite other than that. It really has to do with changing your thought processes, in changing the way you process information. What do you think, premies?

Basic Definition:

CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian
leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming
from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be
the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full
Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform
or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members.

The Maharaji cult fits this 'universal' definition, obvously.

Cult Characteristics:

1. Their leader may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God.

Yes, obviously. In Maharaji's case he has stressed that there is only ONE Perfect Master, and that he was 'chosen' by his father, the previous one, to be PM. Sat Pal, does, however, disagree.

2. They believe they are the only true church/having the one true belief/experience/access to the ultimate.

Yes, although in the Premies' case, it's the one, true 'experience.'

3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.

In the past, Maharaji said that tons of vegetables would rot inside you, or you would smash into a thousand pieces. I think now it's more subtle, but the basic fear is that life will be meaningless and miserable is the premie left M and K. I think the social, peer pressure, is also still there.

AND

Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

Same as above, and another major reason people don't leave.

4. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: 'weak,' 'undisciplined,' 'unspiritual,' 'worldly'; 'brainwashed by family, counselors'; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.

We have all heard variations of this from premies. When will I get the sex and rock & roll?

AND

Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.

Ditto.

5. Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as 'persecution'. Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the 'true Christian' or 'enlightened' one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are 'the only ones who are right'.

Can you say 'Pia Grunbaum' and the fatuous crowd over at 'It Ain't So?' It is truly amazing that premies or Maharaji would claim persecution, to the point of going on a crusade about it, but we have heard it enough that they meet this characteristic of a cult in spades.

6. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate

With rare exceptions, absolutely yes. The very hardest thing for a premie to do is to criticize Maharaji, and if they do, they are probably on their way out or the cult.

7. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing; signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their 'ministry'.

I think this was much more blatant in the past in the Maharaji cult than it is now. It certainly was the case when I was a premie, including tithing, turning over assets, and selling flowers on the streets. But it seems to be more subtle now, although the pressure to donate is definitely still there, including Maharaji saying that 'participation' enhances your 'experience.' I understand that people like Yoram Weiss have made a carrer out of harrassing and guilt-tripping premies into donating to Maharaji, personally.

AND

Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings or the leader are discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

Obviously very true, and always has been. Again, it is almost impossible to get a PWK to criticize Maharaji in the slightest, so programmed and fearful they are. I believe this is the basic essence of a cult, and the one, true test. Just ask a premie to criticize Maharaji and see what happens.

9. members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of propagating, performing certain humiliating rituals, going long distances for cult meetings, et.'

Going long distances with no money was always a test to get to festivals and seen that way, and I think it still is, and so was propagating (bringing in 'new people'). Is darshan a humiliating ritual? I sure think so.

10. Information is not freely accessible

No kidding.

information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid

Always true, and still is.

Leadership decides who 'needs to know' what

Sound familiar all you Elan Vital people?

11. Cults make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s.

This is basically the essence of the Maharaji cult. It's a cult of attribution. All good is due to M, all bad is due to YOURSELF. Since M and K are beyond question, it must be the premie himself or herself, although it does appear there is a group within the cult thatis willing to criticize the 'organization,' keeping the ridiculous illusion that Maharaji isn't in complete charge.

12. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda such as Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.

You betcha, not to mention Satellite Feeds, trinkets and wrist watches with cult sayings on them.

13. Adopt 'loaded' language (characterized by 'thought-terminating clichés'). Words are the tools we use to think with. These 'special' words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous 'buzz words'.

This is so fucking true of the Maharaji cult, it's amazing. Note how 'loaded' these words are in the Maharaji cult: mind, heart, knowledge, master, that love, that peace, that experience, that gift, thirst, fulfillment, and many more too numerous to mention. They all become loaded words that lose their ordinary meaning, and Maharaji and the premies speak them to each other with a nod and wink they only THEY understand what the hell they mean. Total garbage.

14. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down 'reality testing' by stopping 'negative' thoughts and allowing only 'good' thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.

When Maharaji commanded us to meditate 24 hours a day, this was delinitely true, but I think this still exists, either as the 'holy name' technique, or just repression.

Hey, guess what? It's a cult.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:56:21 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
Hi Joe,
Over the course of time I think your posts are very productive and seem without intense emotion.
Thus, when I check in every few months or weeks now - I read yours over others. We knew each other at COLL and I liked and still respect you. :)
I can not call myself a premie any longer and things that you have posted have influenced me.
I am dealing in a helpful way with two friends who bring up M's name alot and are very confused. I pointed that out to one girl and she said when you've loved someone for over 25 years it's hard. And I said yes it was.

Thank you for your informative posts. The emotional,'full of hatred and daggers ' posts were never helpful.

Thanx,
Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:14:40 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
To all you EPO cult members......you guys are hilarious: giving hours and hours of your daily lives to promoting blame & hatred, egging each other on in your absolutely entrenched positions of negativity; I guess there really is no such animal as personal responsibility; why can't you cop to the simple fact that Knowledge and Maharaji are not for you, you think they suck, and good riddance, bid it adieu? Your allegations are based on total hearsay and the dim remembrances of 5, 10, or 20 years ago. Humans are nuts; humans make mistakes; we're all human; give it a fucking rest. As my daughter so wisely said, 'blame is evil...'
It just diverts your attention from the real source of pain, which is internal. 'We have met the enemy, and he is us,' in the deathless words of Pogo. You're never, ever going to convince me
that Knowledge or Maharaji are bogus, and I'm never going to convince you that they're not. So. On with the show, you cultic geeks. Enjoy.

In the early 70s, when I received Knowledge, lots of people asked me whether I had joined a cult. I didn’t think so at the time. Now, almost thirty years later, I can acknowledge the cultishness of some of our behaviors back then.

Fortunately for me and many others, Maharaji wasn’t interested in having a cult. Indeed, from what I can tell, Maharaji has done a lot over the years to dismantle the framework of silly behaviors and misguided concepts that surrounded him in the early years. Most of that junk has fallen away, a footnote to our collective history – much like bellbottoms or the phrase “far out.”

Ah, but there are still those who wonder, “Is it a cult?” To them, I respectfully submit the following, something an English friend and fellow student of Maharaji emailed to me just a few months ago. He calls it “101 Reasons We’re Not A Cult.” It’s meant to be funny and irreverent, rather than an official or exhaustive list -- and it also happens to be an accurate commentary on Maharaji’s message.


Promoted…

Daily practice of four techniques
Enjoyment of life
Freedom of choice
Listening to teachings of living teacher
Personal inner experience
Personal responsibility
Voluntary participation

Not promoted…

Alcohol, Prohibition on
Aliens, Belief in
Angels, Belief in
Anti-government activism
Astrology, Belief in
Austerities, Practice of
Black magic, Belief in
Caste system, Support for
Chakras, Belief in
Chanting, Practice of
Children, Indoctrination of
Civil disobedience
Coercion of any sort
Communal living
Communication with the dead
Compulsory financial contributions
Conventional medicine, Antipathy towards
Conventional psychiatry, Antipathy towards
Course fees (exorbitant or otherwise), Payment of
Demonic possession, Belief in
Dietary code
Disciplinary systems, penances
Divine apparitions, Belief in
Divine intervention, Belief in
Divine retribution, Belief in
Door stepping (going door-to-door, in British)
Dress code or uniform
Ectoplasm, Belief in
Elect, Belief in existence of an
End of the World, Belief in Imminent
ESP, Belief in
Essential books and/or equipment, Need for
Exorcism, Belief in
Family, Rejection of
Fasting, Practice of
Fire-walking, Practice of
Free will, Surrender of
Gender discrimination
Harassment of ‘ex-members’
Hellfire & damnation, Belief in
Holy days, Belief in
Holy places, Belief in
Holy relics, Belief in
Homosexuals, Discrimination against
Human or animal sacrifices
Humiliation or confrontation therapies
Hypnosis
Intellectual ability, Need for special
Intoxicants, Ritual use of
Levitation
Mantras
Marriages, Arranged
Messages from the dead
Metaphysical theories
Mind control
Miracle healing
Mixed marriage, Prohibition on
New names, Adoption of
Nomenclatures, Use of deliberately obscure
Para-militarism
Physical abilities, Requirement for particular
Physical mutilation
Politics, Organised participation in
Possessions, Renunciation of
Pre-destination, Belief in
Pressure not to ‘leave’ or to ‘return’
Priesthood
Private lives, Interference in
Pseudo-scientific explanations
Purification rituals
Racial discrimination
Reincarnation, Belief in
Religions, Opposition to
Ritual ceremonies
Ritual food or drink
Rule books
Satan & the occult, Belief in
Scriptures, Authority based on interpretation of
Self-flagellation
Self-sacrifice
Separating children from parents
Sexual abstinence
Sexual taboos
Sexual therapies
Sleep deprivation
Solicitation of financial support from public
Speaking in tongues
Special birth or death rites
Special hairstyles
Special jewellery or accessories
Staring at things or visualisation
Storage or consumption of bodily wastes
Suffering as beneficial
Suicide
Therapy sessions
Titles & hierarchical structures, Elaborate
Tobacco, Prohibition on
UFOs
Voices from God
Volunteers, Overwork of
Weddings, Mass

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:30:59 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Have you noticed that YOU are on OUR site?
Message:
What do YOU care how long we put on this forum. Are you concerned? If so, why? Why should you give a shit?

I'm not here to recruit you or disband your belief system. I'm here to gather the truth about M & K and retrace a valuable part of my life. Yes, I also do want to expose M to the world for who he is. Convincing you is the least of my goals, although I am concerned. If these allegations are in error, then our worldly efforts will be in vane, if not, than your efforts will be in vane. I'm not discouraging you from defending M but it will only serve your agenda to stick with facts because the Denial will flare up in your faces.

The list of everything you said YOUR MASTER is not about is exactly what YOUR MASTER is about and everything you said that he is not about is exactly what he is about! INTERESTING.

Do you think the people on this forum are angry or hateful and just using M & K as an excuse? Does that sound rational to you? I left M approx. 12 yrs. ago and never had an angry thought towards him, TILL I came back here a couple of weeks ago.

Are you willing to go to the press and television and magazines to assert your beliefs regarding YOUR MASTER. Are you? Would you have your family, past friends, new friends, future friends, neighbours, peers, employers (past, present, and future) tune in to hear to profess the Truth about your precious master? Would you admit to singing ARTI, defend the Vows, and describe the ultimate Darshan of kissing his feet? Would you? If the answer is Yes , you may then have to? Good Luck.

You can't re-write history. Perhaps you just don't remember or perhaps you never heard these things. But others have. Remember, M is the only one claiming here to be OMNIPRESENT. You couldn't possibly know for a fact what M did or did not say or how he may of behaved. Otherwise, you would not of articulated the lists which you did.

On the other hand, I do remember talking about 1/2 the things on his list and I also remember, lucidly, the stories and quotes from PAMS or people who had One on One conversations.

Sorry, re-writing my cognizant memory of history doesn't work.

Shame on Maharaji for taking you into the final round with him.
Cowardly little fuck, he is.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:01 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Mr. Williams - Go back and read it AGAIN! sheesh
Message:
Wow - you visiting premies do that all the time. Where in my message did I say that You are trying to tell us what to say?
Where? Where? Where?

I asked you why you care about the time we put in here.

I told you stick to the facts, because you are re-writing history. I politely told you that you either did not know, hear, or see him say these things because

......a)You're unaware
or
......b)You forget (This is sometimes due to denial)

I asked to think critically as to whether or not we were just angry premies who are disenchanted with M & K. I informed you that I NEVER EVER EVER EVER had a bad thought towards M until (approx. 3 weeks) ago when I ventured back for another peek at EPO. When I'm on this forum I'm discussing the CultLeader and his sicko fuckin game. I need to use this forum to release my angst because this is not exactly a socially acceptable problem to have. You seem to think that discovering that a major part of your life was fucked with is something we should just 'shrug our shoulders at'. Forget it! I'm sticking around. I am angry at the BigFuckHead, and for a good reason. No. I will not go politely into the night and let fuckforbrains get away with what he's doing. Nope. Not I. Nope.

I did accuse you of re-writing history. Your memory is suffering from denial. You're ego is protecting you from accepting too much at one time. It will be easier for you to grasp the purpose of this forum if you step back from the mic and read some postings.

When the truth hits you - it will be like a centrifugal explosion. Accepting the truth causes you to go back and re-order reality, sort out the bullshit. How we handle the truth after that is individual.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:39:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat
Message:
I just love it when you spell out the obvious to visiting premies. We can't even post on their sites but they insist on telling us what we can and cannot post on OUR site. Every post of yours that I have read that you have addressed to premies just cuts through the crap. Thanks.
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:19:31 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat
Message:
I'm not telling you what to write; show me the quote; you guys sure know how to MSU
(make shit up.) Truth. What a concept. I'm just telling you how I feel. Don't misquote me, you naughty ex.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:19:17 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Interesting that you use a list of what M/EV isn't
Message:
promoting as justification that it is not a cult. What about the carfully thought out list that Joe compiled? Is the best response you can give a list of things M/EV does not do?

Your inability to look at the obvious or even consider new information would indicate you ARE in a cult.

And remember, cults come in many shapes and sizes. The more successful cults certainly don't kill their members, or even coerce them overtly. In fact, the less the cult appears to be a cult superficially, the more new members it can lure in, and more money it can make. A 'smart' cult carefully manipulates and controls, keeps secrets, and demands unquestioning loyalty from it's members. The more subtley it can do this, the better. The more it can hide what it's doing, the more sucessful it is. And if by doing all that they can get you to ''Never Doubt'', don't you think that is potentially very self-serving for them?

If M/EV were not a cult, it wouldn't hide from scrutiny. It's financial records would be open to public inspection. Dissent and debate would be allowed (did you hear about the San Yisidro incident?) M would answer questions, because he would have nothing to hide.

You can belong to a cult if you want to, it's not illegal. I'm sure many of the Premies don't even care that it's a cult. But denying it won't hold up to scrutiny. That's why you are supposed to ''Leave no room for doubt in your mind'', and ''NEVER question the purity of The Master''. Scrutiny is the enemy to lies, and the friend of truth.

Even if it somehow weren't a cult, doesn't the lying bother you at all? Aren't the bold faced lies about the past, and the cover ups, all coming from a man who is supposed to represent the Truth, enough to cause you at least some concern? It was enough for me. After much consideration of as many facts as I could find and verify, I decided I'd rather keep the company of the truth. And that always holds up to scrutiny.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:04:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
Mr. Williams,

My only reason for thinking Maharaji is a cult leader is because you attribute him with powers far above what you attribute to normal human beings. You probably think he can do no wrong (how do you feel about him being a hit and run driver, guilty of vehicular manslaughter, btw?). The truth is Maharaji is just one more guy with his own bright ideas about things. He's nobody special. To that list of things 'not promoted', might I suggest that you add 'guys who people think are hotter than shit when they're really just as fallible as anybody else (aka Maharaji)'

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: hit and run artist, this is not true
Message:
I'm not going to make this long, because I'm not sure you read any of the responses to your occasional posts. You seem like a hit and run artist that comes to preach and then leave. But several things in your post beg a response, even if you're not the one that will read it. You said:

Your allegations are based on total hearsay and the dim remembrances of 5, 10, or 20 years ago.

I can tell from your comments that you obviously don't read this Forum, you just come to criticize it. What about Jim Sanders (just recently exited community coordinator) who has been posting lately and even on this active page? What about Pat C and Chuck S, in their local community's planning team until last year? What about the many who have recently exited including Kelly and Steve Quint?

For myself, since M and K IS a CHURCH (legally, with the US IRS) and a CULT, I did not cut my ties totally. I exited gradually. Thus I have many friend and several family members that are still premies. (My sister went to Amaroo.) These close connection made it possible for me to see the changes and revisions over the years that you probably failed to see, or choose not to notice. Do you think that most of us cut off all ties with the premies, and that our information is not based on current knowledge? Think again. From God-in-a-bod to knowledge is just my job, I just give knowledge. From God or Guru Maharaji comes into this world to save you and krishna crowns to 'the speaker.' We're the witnesses. This is one little dog doo you won't be able to hide far enough down in the dirt.

Also you say that M promotes freedom of choice. That's the BIGGEST crock I've ever heard. That's the bait. The switch is another story.

Yes, so far, you're another preacher. You've been taking lessons from a very obnoxious and arrogant one, for sure, for sure.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:13:33 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: hit and run artist, this is not true
Message:
Francesca, why is it preaching when I tell you my experience, and not preaching when you tell me yours? Why is there pretty much always an edge of anger or bitterness, and some scatological reference, in reply to me or anyone who doesn't fall in line with your perception of M? Back and forth, like a tennis match. This is getting forulaic; am I the weakest link? Are you? Goodbye.
Best of luck.
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:53:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Just more hit and run eh?
Message:
You didn't respond to anything I said, or any of the points I made. Nor did you respond to any of the points Joe or anyone else made, with anything that could refute those points. All you did was describe my post in negative terms. Sometimes CD can be reasonable, and Erika Andersen was reasonable. And even Michele Deradune. But you are blowing smoke. Your facts are not straight. You don't really read the substance of what people are saying, you react to the fact that we don't like Rawat, because you do. Get over it.

And then all you have to say is 'bye.'

I can speak perfectly reasonably with people who LOVE M. As I said in my post, I have friends that are premies. But the premies that come on this site generally come with a bag of their own negativity towards what we are saying. Look at your grand entrance each time. You say that we are wasting our time here, or make negative references to why anyone in their right mind would post here. In other words, come at us like you have some superior view on life. You say we don't have our facts straight, when most of us do. Look at your own tone. You come on with quite an edge of superiority.

Your attitude is bad. Think about it. And you started the conversation with us on that foot, and have done so before. You'll get it right back atcha, each and every time.

Namatse, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:18:13 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Just more hit and run eh?
Message:
Hi
Francesca.....

You didn't respond to anything I said, or any of the points I made.
>I'm not here to argue with you. Our experience is different. We differ. Maybe I'm just a mirror---showing you your own 'attitude.' I haven't accused you of anything; I haven't gotten angry and insulted or abused you, or anyone here. I'm just taking my best shot at telling you my real, no-bullshit experience, based on what I've seen and what I've lived. I have no idea what's REALLY in y'all's heads. I don't know what's in anybody's head. Again, just trying to sincerely express myself in the humblest way my general level of built-in-from-childhood arrogance can muster.

All you did was describe my post in negative terms.

> I was describing what I felt to be a negative post; do you feel insulted by me? You certainly write like you do. I can't control that, but I can control my reaction/response--I am biased toward atavistic respect for humans; I wouldn't want to insult you. Sorry, irony content here is zero.

Sometimes CD can be reasonable, and Erika Andersen was reasonable. And even Michele Deradune. But you are blowing smoke.

> Please define reasonable, as specifically as you can. Let me reiterate something I said in an earlier post, and maybe we can take the drama and tension down a notch: I will heartily defend your right to say, think, and feel what you like; that's a basic, human, global right---if not the reality, certainly the ideal, and I fully subscribe to it. In fact, my opinion is you, sincere as I am sincere, hoist yourself on your own petard. People can get a clear message from the subtext,
the feeling in a post---they can feel yours, feel mine, think about it, check it out however they do, with whatever personal, internal process they trust, and make up their own minds and hearts. I respond best to respect, as I'm sure you do.

Your facts are not straight. You don't really read the
substance of what people are saying, you react to the fact that we don't like Rawat, because you do. Get over it.
> I disagree; I think I understand clearly what the substance is; it's just that on most of it I hold a diametrically opposed view.
Which I think is as hard for you to accept as valid as anything in your life---but that's just what I think; you have to draw your own conclusions. I'm definitely angry & hurt that y'all are dissing someone I deeply respect and love, but I try to hold on to just the basic human compassion I was born with. I have many, many friends who are no longer premies; I know, or at least I hope I know, they don't feel estranged from me or judged by me on any meaningful, intimate level. Same with ex-significant others. The people I love, I love. It's not something I switch on and off. Even when people do what I perceive or judge to be 'wrong,' even when I choose not to be in a lot of relationship with that person, I still have a feeling of love for them. Unless they do something Dahmeresque. :--)

And then all you have to say is 'bye.'
> Mild frustration. I apologize if you thought that was rude.

You say that we are wasting our time here, or make negative
references to why anyone in their right mind would post here.

> There you go again...please reproduce the exact words that you believe were said. I did not make either of these statements.
Please do not MSU(make shit up; I'm really trying to market this as a new, happening acronym.)


In other words, come
at us like you have some superior view on life. You say we don't have our facts
straight, when most of us do. Look at your own tone. You come on with quite an
edge of superiority.

>Superiority? no, because I've gotten beaten up by my own arrogance and pride and blame enough to know there is no advantage to feeling superior; in fact, it is, IMO, an insane state. How can I possibly know whether my internal life is superior to yours? How can I have any realistic or practical experience of your internal state, or you of mine? It's all pure speculation.
What I can do is choose my response, and choose who I wish to interact with, to a certain, growing degree. What I know is I love & revere Knowledge in my life, and what I think is that that pains angers you.I don't want to argue about it, because I can't. I just want to say it. Don't be afraid of a person feeling love, respect, & gratitude. These are incredibly hard-won states of being, if you place any credence in the artists, writers, mothers, shamans, healers, wise men & women of virtually any culture that's ever been on Earth. Are love and respect more powerful than hatred and insults? They are for me.

Your attitude is bad. Think about it.

>It's not bad, IMO; it's just way different than yours, a different worldview, and you seem to be having difficulty accepting that.

And you started the conversation with us on that
foot, and have done so before. You'll get it right back atcha, each and every time.

>Respect is the key. Right, Mr. Heller? I think there's a blind spot on this site with regard to the ultimate lasting effectiveness of personal invective and bitter anger;
there are a relatively few number of people that are drawn to a steady diet of rancor---or maybe I'm just naive.


Namatse, f

(Namatse: an obscure Japanese poisonous mushroom? Sorry, couldn't resist...... :-) Namaste to you, my dear.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:33:33 (GMT)
From: Charles Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Francesca
Subject: EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring?
Message:
He didn't even bother to reply to my post or Deborah's in this thread. But it hardly matters, as his replies were mostly just put-downs. It's hard to actually talk WITH someone ABOUT something, when they have to LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT in their mind.

Auto-brainwashing at work. They can't look at their blind spots, the best they can do is just whine. BORING. It's like listening to someone going to a meeting of MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers) and complaining because the assembled members are antagonistic to drunk drivers.

Blame is Evil? Yeah, right, especially when the shoe fits your Master.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Charles Sprague
Subject: EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring?
Message:
Hi Charles,

Well Mr. Williams did respond to my post but he switched horses when he got there by defending something I didn't even say.

Amazing how the ego defends itself, eh? Imagine believing that the BigHead's charade is all in our head. If he was so hip to Mirage, gee! why would he have stayed around? Doesn't add up. He wants to think that we're defective so he doesn't have to look at the truth.

Deborah

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:50:21 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Yes, astute observation...
Message:
Hi Deborah:

You said: ''He wants to think that we're defective so he doesn't have to look at the truth.''

YUP!!! That really sums it up nicely, I like the way you get to the point so quickly.

Those who will not listen to The Doubtmaker end up listening to The Excusemaker, and it's cousin, The Rationalizationmaker. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, but gave it away because it was too BORING and tiresome.

- Chuck
Who is finding peace of mind by not having to do mental gymnastics anymore to make sense out of lies and nonsense.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:05:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Oh yeah, Fran?
Message:
Sometimes CD can be reasonable

Silly, maybe. Innocuous and irrelvant, sure. But reasonable? Never! CD doesn't reason here. That would be like putting a few thoughts together in a logical framework, right? Yeah, that's what I thought. No, he doesn't do that. You must be thinking of someone else. Chris Dickey, right? CD? No, he doesn't do that.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Doesn't reason about M and K
Message:
That's true. But sometimes he speaks in a way more reasonable tone that Mr. Williams ever has. And though he won't doubt his master, which is his choice, he's not always lashing out at us. That's all I meant. There's a difference between being, reasonable and civil, and engaging in the act of 'reasoning.' How can you reason when you can't leave any room for doubt?

--f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:30:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh yeah, Fran? Is Mr Williams weaseling out?
Message:
He thinks having a master who's purity should never be doubted and who should never be criticized is not undemocratic. Woo woo!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:27:38 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Francesca
Subject: learning from a 'living' teacher
Message:
No, Elan Vital or whatever you want to call it is NOT a CULT!

There is no exalted, higher than thou, god-like being being worshipped there. No, siree!

Maharaji is a 'living' teacher. Living as opposed to dead, I suppose, Mr. Anderson. Ok, I admit I'm making a few assumptions and jumping from the living to the dead, but such comparisons by way of the contrasting use of the word 'living' invokes those soothing and powerful images of teachers like Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Mohammed, et al.

And your point, Mr. Anderson, is what? Elan Vital is not a cult and Maharaji is not your messiah?

I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:46:20 (GMT)
From: Mr. Anderson
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Very funny, Roger
Message:
And my name is NEO!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
See, Mr. Williams is an excellent example of why Elan Vital and the premies get into the whole quagmire of 'cult.' It is extremely important to both premies and Maharaji that his organization NOT be a cult, otherwise half the premies would leave (still leaving the truly fanatic who don't care), and nobody new would get suckered into it.

And I also completely disagree with Patrick that the Maharaji cult isn't a cult on the 'exterior.' It clearly is. The supression of information, the secret, exclusive events where secret rituals are performed (Amaroo and darshan respectively), the loaded, code-like terms, the censorship, the supression of free expression, the disdain for criticizing Maharaji, the fundraising, etc.

The argument is that now that there aren't ashrams, and Maharaji doesn't wear crowns, and sits on less-elaborate thrones, that this isn't a cult. But see, those things are not what makes a cult a cult. That kind of idea also plays into the current premie nonsense that it used to be a cult, but isn't anymore. Again, the trappings are not what makes a cult a cult. It's the group-think, it's the enforcement of the doctrine against objective analysis. It's the supression of free speech, and all the rest, all of which exists to reduce the possibility that anyone will point out that the emporer isn't wearing any clothes.

I agree with Way that arguing that the Maharaji cult isn't a cult is a losing proposition for Maharaji, and actually makes things much worse, because the arguments are so transparent and stupid. Currently, the basic argument is that, since premies don't commit mass suicide (or do some outrageous thing) then it can't be a cult. The argument is just to change the defintion of cult to something so extreme that nothing but the Peoples Temple or Heavens Gate would qualify. That's absurd, and we shouldn't let them get away from it.

In reponse to the 223rd rendition of the premie 'move on' argument, this time espoused by Mr. Williams, I would just suggest that Mr. Williams' motives do not involve concern about the lives of ex-premies. He wants ex-premies to 'move on' because he doesn't like and is, in fact, deeply worried and threatened by what ex-premies are saying. He doesn't want to hear it and prays we just go away. I operate on the principle that gratuitous advice is usually not for your benefit, but for the person giving it, so you can guess where I would stick that.

But for the 223rd time, Mr. Williams, ex-premies are all over the map on motivations. Some people are very recently out of the cult and are sorting things out, and talking about it helps. Some others feel they were ripped off by Maharaji and are seeking some justice and comeuppance for Maharaji (with some success so far, I might add). Still others think they have a public duty to give the other side of the story about the Maharaji cult, and since all the cult sites are completely censored, this website is about the only way to warn the unwary, often very sincere, people, who just might wander into something without complete information. And those motivations are just to name a few. They are more.

Whether this is ex-premie group is a cult or not, get real. We don't have a leader, we don't think anyone has a divine right to lead, and unlike the cult, people can criticize ex-premies all they want to, and do on a regular basis, you being a prime example. There is no supression or censorship of information. No, that's what a cult does.

Here's a little test for you, Williams: Go over to one of the cult sites, Maharaji's site in particular, and tell them what you told us, that Maharaji was running a cult in the 70s, that you think he's overweight and kind of unattractive, and that he screwed up as 'master' early in his career. See if that get's published there. I wager $100 Enjoyinglife or Pia Grunbaum won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.

Also, I would suggest that you saying that no one, ever, will convince you that M and K are 'bogus' is EXACTLY what a cult member would say. You are not open to objective reason or analysis. You are not open even the minute possibility that you might just be very wrong, have been deceived, and living on fantasy and wishful thinking. That's what people in a cult do. They leave no room for doubt to enter their minds on that subject, and hence they will never be able to evaluate anything about it on any kind of rational, objective basis. That's basically what a cult is all about: it limits and truncates your thoughts. It's self-censorship, and we ex-premies know all about that, because we did it ourselves for many years.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:00:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
that Maharaji was running a cult in the 70s,
that you think he's overweight and kind of unattractive, and that he screwed up as
'master' early in his career.

You're makin' shit up, Joe. I never said these things. Exactly what I referred to in an earlier post. How tabloidesque: lie like a rug and somebody'll believe it...keep playin' Machiavellian chess, Joe; the rational process, and debate club stuff, only go so far.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:28:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Oops, Joe, I forgot about the modern trappings
Message:
od cultdom. How could I be so dumb since I just got an invitation to one of their indoctrination seminars?

To those with less subtle analytical skills it does seem that the more obvious aspects of cultdom have been gotten rid of (ashrams etc) but the color-coded videos carefully rated from ''Introductory'' (don't give steak to babies) to full-blown ''PWK ONLY'' sermons on the Master (you cannot save yourself - only the Master can save you) and the secret meetings and the generally conspiratorial culture of premiedom are damning.

Excellent analysis, Joe.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:47:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Don't beat yourself up Pat, you've actually ...
Message:
... shown us a good example of the subtle (to an insider) revisionism and indoctrination that permeates M's cult, as I told Mr. Williams.

I know premies that are stuck in that one. It's been revised so many times that they segued into believing that the whole thing evolved somehow, and it was all some crazy DLM person's idea that he was god anyway, and he was really cool and just put up with us and now he's telling us the truth. Like he told it to us so many times before, yeah. I mean, Francesca, don't you get it. He's a regular guy, and, hey, giving K is just his job. (smirk, smirk -- we just kiss his feet at Amaroo.) But they probably, as Jim Sanders and many have said, just don't really think about it too deeply, or the house of cards would tumble.

To an outsider, the whole step-down-transformer and the beginnings of the bait-and-switch propagation are quite transparent. I am extremely glad that there are no more ashrams or premie communities like the old days, or nightly satsangs. I'd be interested to see what the more recently initiated and exiting exes say, but even Chuck says that he wasn't as 'damaged' as you and I were by the bhakti juju. Neither was my husband.

I don't think Rawat's gravy train is at all damaged by this new approach. The damage to the wallets of the followers will be the same.
love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The Inner Cult vs External Trappings
Message:
This is the most difficult thing that I have to explain to my PWK friends. They do not see Rawat as the cult. They will concede that EV may be cultish but cannot see that their emotional attachment to Rawat is the real invisible cult.

They cannot see that an authoritarian Master is completely antithetical to our democratic values and is therefore outside the norms of civilization and is therefore a CULT. They cannot see that their love for him has blinded them to his stupidity, vapidity and corruption.

Telling them that they are in a cult only makes them defensive. To them cult means lots of rules and regulations, coercion and indoctrination. What they cannot see is that they have been indoctrinated into the most insidious cult of all - the cult of dependence on an exterior source for their happiness - the Master.

They cannot see that he has twisted their minds with inane concepts and absolute nonsense. No wonder so many of them are in need of psychiatric intervention. It is such a subtle mind-fuck that they don't realize that they are being shafted.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:38:08 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The Inner Cult vs External Trappings
Message:
They cannot see that an authoritarian Master is completely antithetical to our
democratic values and is therefore outside the norms of civilization and is therefore a
CULT. They cannot see that their love for him has blinded them to his stupidity,
vapidity and corruption

This is a credible argument?
You sound like a John Birch society spokesman. Or a J. Edgar Hoover wannabe. Dude--please. Current, DOCUMENTED evidence that M is an 'authoritarian Master---' and not hearsay, third party bullshit, or 25-year-old 'examples,' either. And he's not stupid, vapid, or corrupt. You just think he is. And I'll defend your right to think that, and say that, forever. Is that that 1st Amendment stuff? The above quote sounds like something from 'Reefer Madness.' Doesn't that kind of creep you out, that stiff-necked, Cotton Matheresque, higher moral ground stance?

Ooooh, I'm just a victim to that mean old Maharaji's stern & harsh visage, his unwavering Svengali number over me. I'm just deeply confused, and frankly incapable of making any clear or cogent perception of him....I'm just such a loser.....

Please.

We'll just agree to disagree. No preaching, judging, or insults necessary.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:02:37 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: 'Never doubt the purity of the Master. Never.'
Message:
Spoken very forcefully, in Miami several months ago, at a closed program that you had to get into with Smart Cards.

Why do you think we were told to get rid of our old pictures, tapes, videos? But yes, sometimes we paint with a broader brush when we are revved up, I'll drink to that!

People have posted much information, over the past 6 months, from more current trainings than those horrible ashram meetings that I was at in Kissimmee years ago. If you get into the inner circle, if you REALLY want to know how he REALLY feels, I don't think anything has changed. There's the public persona, the average premie persona, and the dude that's driving the machine. Keep your distance, watch a few vids, practice K, and you'll probably be unscathed, as are several of my dear friends.

--f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:55:52 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: The Inner Cult vs External Trappings
Message:
I just can't see why you get upset now. You are not serious about maheraj NOT being an Authoritarian master??

'Rawat is not stupid, vapid or corrupt' you don't mind me asking why he claimed to be (greater than) god and now 'just a teacher'???

'you sound like E Hoover....'
(Pat C is a great guy but I doubt if he would qualify for a leading position in the FBI)

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:41:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You tell 'em Joe! Another Good One! n/t
Message:
assholes!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:39:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent post JOE :o)))))))))))))))))))))) n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:38:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact..
Message:
Mr. Williams,

Why can't you cop to the simple fact that the ex-premie Forum is not for you, that you think it sucks, and good riddance, bid it adieu?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:50:50 (GMT)
From: Mr. Willams
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact..
Message:
As I was saying below....rigid protection of content, constant personal innuendo.....people see right through that shit.....
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:15:09 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: You forgot on your promoted list ,the
Message:
Protection of paedophilles.
Revisonism (re-writing of history).
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:45:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
the list, whether meant to be humor or in earnest, lies outright on these points, which I mean to lambaste forthwith:

Not promoted…
Alcohol, Prohibition on
>since the age of 14, maharaji drinks every day, but premies were prohibited
Aliens, Belief in
>the astrodome parking lot cordoned off for the ships to land
Austerities, Practice of
>ashram vows: poverty, chastity, obedience, surrender
Caste system, Support for
>there is only one master, everyone else is less than he
Chanting, Practice of
>'the Lord of the Universe' ad nauseum(replace with any repetitive premie song unto exhaustion)
Children, Indoctrination of
>premie kids saturated with mom and dad's beliefs
Coercion of any sort
>no knowledge without enough videos; ashram vows of obedience and surrender
Communal living
>ashrams, premie houses, the Peace Plant, Kissimmee, etc.
Compulsory financial contributions
>Divine Sales,AMP,poverty vows, darshan lines, festivals, front row seats, dishnet subscription, amaroo registration fees
Conventional medicine, Antipathy towards
>just meditate, it's all maharaji's grace'
Conventional psychiatry, Antipathy towards
>'just meditate, it's all maharaji's grace'
Course fees (exorbitant or otherwise), Payment of
>training seminars--tiburon
Dietary code
>no meat, fish or eggs vegetarian, no drugs, smoking, alcohol--while maharaji glutted himself at will
Disciplinary systems, penances
>banishment to the boonies or another country, blaming self for not being surrendered enough or not pure enough or not having the understanding
Divine apparitions, Belief in
>darshan dreams, bilocation
Divine intervention, Belief in
>'just have faith, maharaji's grace will take care of it'
Divine retribution, Belief in
>'If you get this Knowledge and don't meditate on it, it's like having three tons of vegetable in your refrigerator and not eating it. When it starts rottening(sic), it's gonna rot like a hell'
Dress code or uniform
>ashram dress code:no makeup, cult jewelry only, plain hair, skin covered except face and hands, short hair for men.
Elect, Belief in existence of an
>millennium73
Essential books and/or equipment, Need for
>barogans. earplugs.sheet/shawl/blanket. And It Is Divine. Divine Times. Light Reading. audiocassettes. videos. conference calls.altars. photos. buttons. Elan Vital magazine. festivals. darshan. pranam. arti. satsang. service. meditation. satellite feeds. dishnet connection.smartcards.
Family, Rejection of
>'nothing is more important than your connection to the (Perfect) Master'
Free will, Surrender of
>you're in your mind.you're confused. listen to more satsang. watch more videos. meditate. be in holy name. do more service. surrender.'
Gender discrimination
>'god comes as a man, but he must come through a woman. even he must do that. that is her service.'
Harassment of 'ex-members'
>'a small hate group, spreading innuendo, rumors and lies, led by a gang of four former top executives'
Hellfire & damnation, Belief in
>'break into a million pieces' 'die and see' 'if there is anyone who can be called the worst, it is me'
Holy days, Belief in
> the Knowledge session,hans jayanti, Guru Puja, Holi, any darshan occasion
Holy places, Belief in
>Hardwar, Delhi, Prem Nagar, Malibu, Reigate, Alton Road, Palm Island, the Boeing 707 at DECA, the G4, the G5, Amaroo...
Holy relics, Belief in
>charnamrit, prashad

Homosexuals, Discrimination against
>maharaji's personal phobias about

Humiliation or confrontation therapies
>foot kissing, pranam, service, surrender, waiting for Knowledge, smartcard scanning, eating maharaji's leftover food, drinking his leftover bathwater, vows of poverty, chastity, obedience

Hypnosis:
>constantly meditate and remember the holy name. never delay in attending satsang. bhajans. 'focus your mind on the form of..'

Mind control
> do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today. constantly meditat and remember the holy name.leave no room in your mind for doubt. never delay in attending satsang. always have faith in god.
Miracle healing
>it's all maharaji's grace

New names, Adoption of
>mahatma(gurupujanand, satchitanand, parampremanand,)(fakiranand, gurucharnanand, parlokanand, trebinanand, vidyanand...)
pranam bai, mira bai, sulaksna bai, prakash bai,
...Durga Ji
...The Perfect Master, Guru Maharaj Ji, the Lord, The Sureme Power in Person,...
The Client, The Speaker, The Guest, The Master...

Nomenclatures, Use of deliberately obscure
>moksha. raj vidya. barogan. pranam. charnamrit. arti.raj yoga. sat yuga. sat sang. kaliyuga. manmath. darshan.
'that experience' 'that love' 'that knowledge' 'that surrender' 'that understanding'

Para-militarism
>World Peace Corps. mafia poses.security premies. closed circuit camera pans of festival halls. smartcards.

Physical abilities, Requirement for particular
>tongue swallowing. elbows raised continually for 15 mins to an hour at a time. breathing under a sheet for an hour.

Politics, Organised participation in
>Elan Vital heirarchy. Residence heirary. Rabbi Korff's dinner in DC. Detroit key to the city.

Possessions, Renunciation of
>Divine Sales. ashram vow of poverty. repeated evictions from going to festivals paid with the rent money. the world is maya, all is illusion, it's his Lila.

Pre-destination, Belief in
>the perfect master comes again and again into this world to save his devotees from the darkness

Pressure not to 'leave' or to 'return'
>see rotten vegetables, above.

Priesthood
>mahatmas, initiators, instructors

Private lives, Interference in
>festivals. abortions. service. satsang. vegetarianism. chastity. poverty. surrender. agya.

Pseudo-scientific explanations
>everything is a vibration. this is the source.

Purification rituals
>'you need to listen to more satsang. become an empty cup so maharaji can fill it. surrender.'
vegetarianism. cleansing fasts. colonics. juice fasts. wheatgrass. breatharianism. not listening to 'mind'
Racial discrimination
>parlokanand.

Religions, Opposition to
>the aspirant process before being acceptd for Knowledge.
Ritual ceremonies
>pranam. arti. meditation. the Knowledge session. darshan lines. foot kissing. maharaji's satsang.
Ritual food or drink
>prashad and charnamrit
Rule books
>the ashram manual. the community coordinator manual. the video presentation manual. the aspirant coordinator manual. the propagation training seminars.

Scriptures, Authority based on interpretation of
>'Krishna told Arjuna'...'This is that Knowledge spoken of in all the scriptures'...'in the beginning was the Word...'
Self-flagellation
>it's all my fault. I am not surrendered enough. I am in my mind. I am having doubts. I don't meditate enough. I am nothing. I am the worst. Who am I to even ask for Maharaji to look at me...
Self-sacrifice
>poverty, chastity, obedience. dedicate your life...give me the reins of your life

Separating children from parents
>unity school, UK, USA. no children allowed at events.
Sexual abstinence
>chastity, abortions, dissolve marriages (all while the leader bangs any blonde he likes the look of, while married with four kids)

Sexual taboos
>see above
Sexual therapies
>'sister, you are to meet maharaji at the four seasons tonight at 8 pm. come alone and wait for him in room #X. This is your great good fortune. so much grace for you.'
Sleep deprivation
>service freaks.

Special hairstyles
>short hair on men.plain hair on women
Special jewellery or accessories
>buttons. swans. lotuses. hearts. visions tchotchkes.program logos.
earth shoes. barogans.earplugs. dishnet satellite hookups. smartcards

Staring at things or visualisation
>the light technique. maharaji on stage. videos. satellite feeds. festivals. darshan lines.

Suffering as beneficial
>'its all your mind. meditate . stay in holy name. do service. dedicate your life to him. be dust under his feet.'
Suicide
>>>>>>community's and the leader's complete ignoring of warning signs. abandonment and isolation of troubled premies. blaming the victim for their state, both before and after the act is done.

Titles & hierarchical structures, Elaborate
>see above: residence, Elan Vital, security forces, et al
Tobacco, Prohibition on
>hypocritical ban for members while leader is addicted to two packs a day, has 10,000 dollar side rooms built for one night so he can smoke after speaking.
Voices from God
>'everyone was weeping and I felt this power from inside of me so strong. Again I have come and you are not listening....I declare I will establish peace in this world...'
Volunteers, Overwork of
>DECA.festivals. millennium.soul rush. tierra del amor. amaroo.
*******************************

the writing is not only on the wall, but the wall is smeared several feet thick with the flaking, peeling, crusting, cracking, blistering, disintegrating layers of damnation matching every item on the above list.

I lived it. I am an eye, ear, nose and throat witness to it all. All four techniques.

truth in jest--except it wasnt a jest at all.
not then, and not now.
sorry.
you lose.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:47:28 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
No, baby---you lose because you apparently live in a world of blame and pain, and definitely way, way back in time. I GOT psychological & cultural help to deal with my grief and anger; yours seems to be festering with no end in sight....I feel sorry for you, but I didn't live what you lived; it was always a libertarian, volunteer thing for me, and will always be.And I was as 'strong' a PWK as anybody 20 years ago. It's just always been a clean deal for me.

'Doubt kills the warrior...'

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:55:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: What a funny thing to say!
Message:
Libertarian? What a preposterous thing to say! Oh but then I guess that's what you get from a real live warrior, huh?
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:54:40 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr Williams is correct in saying
Message:
that EPO has its cultish aspects - every gathering of humans has. I hope no-one here intends to devote their entire life to refuting PSR and EV - too many other roses to smell. Personally, I'm enjoying many of the witty posts which are exploratory rather than didactic or denunciatory.

However, Mr W, you say, 'You're never, ever going to convince me that Knowledge or Maharaji are bogus, and I'm never going to convince you that they're not.'

So what are you doing here?

By any definition of the word, EV is a cult. Try this one: 'An intense, almost religious devotion to a person or thing.'
(Macquarie Pocket Dictionary)

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:37:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Mr Williams is correct in saying
Message:
So what are you doing here?

Just making my position clear to whoever reads this.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:32:27 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr Williams is correct in saying
Message:
Thank you
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:13:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Mr Williams and Angel, two very interesting posts
Message:
You both write very well and are obviously sincere, serious and clever. I just hope you will both introduce yourselves to us as a courtesy seeing as we have been an open book to you for as long as you have been reading FV. It's all in the archives but I'm sure most people here will volunteer quite personal details of themselves.

Mr Williams, I intend to copy and keep that list - very interesting. I really don't think you have been reading all the exchanges here judging by the conclusions you draw about this forum. I have met most of these people and they are brilliant. We are deconstructing a significant part of our lives here and it is fascinating. I know the baby Throwing Festivals can be vicious but they're such fun. Why be reverent when you can immolate Holy Cows?

Premiedom today is not a cult on the exterior. The overtly cultish aspects such as ashrams, disdain for family, career or other ''attachments'' has been gone for so many years that those of you who have remained in the cult can hardly remember them. You have cult amnesia euphemistically known as revisionary Alzheimers or the Reagan Syndrome. It is a gradually creeping disease not an acute one. I know because I had it up until recently.

Today's Maharajism is a cult of double-speak. A groupthink conspiracy whereby the ''living teacher'' says he is not a teacher but the Master who's authority must never be questioned. You are blinded by an imaginary connection between the love that you feel for life and Rev Rawat's indoctrination into you of Hindu bhakti juju.

It is a cult of code language. The code being that you want your cake and eat it. Guruism is Hinduism. Just tell people straight out that you're a bunch of Hindus; that guru opens up your heart to a feeling of love which is so nice that you don't cringe when he calls it god within. Congratulations you and your fellow conspirators have succeeded in creating an invisible cult - the inner cult.

In India people are proud to belong to other cults in the Radha soami tradition such as Elan Vital. Just come straight out and say guru is greater than god because he reveals god and kiss his feet in public again the way we all used to. All this doublespeak is doing neither you nor him any good. Not everyone fancies kissing a middle-aged businessman's feet but it will always appeal to enough people to keep a bottle of cheap brandy on his kitchen table.

Mr Williams, please tell me honestly don't you find His Holeyness' sermons boring, repetitive and montonous or are you just in in for that good old fahioned bhakti-guru juice? Also please read Questioning Angel's post above about marketing in the 21st century.

I'll talk to you, Angel, under that post tomorrow. It's time for bed. It was interesting but a bit esoteric. Pitch it a bit lower next time or even better re-write without the purple passages. But you've got my curiosuty piqued. What the hell are ''Love Marks?'' I'll read it again tomorrow.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
Joe this is outstanding!!! Thank you. Yeah, it is a f#@* cult.
I have not been able to follow the forum as much but this post makes my time spent reading it worthwhile.
Hope to meet you some day.
Are you coming back to Seattle any time soon?
We are kind of flakey over here.
Mercedes :)
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:02:29 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great stuff
Message:
you made my life easier. Was looking for something to include on it-IS-so site re cults, now I got it. Do you mind if I use this post. [it's only protocol, for copyright issues]

Salam

it-Is-so

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:15:39 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: bravo bravo Joe, fantastic 9 (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:52 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies.
Message:
Joe, I think that this one is a real keeper ! Beyond a best of Forum. Maybe title 'it IS so' or 'why Maharaji is a cult leader' or some other attention gathering headline. & Put it right there on page one with Jim Sanders' wonderful letters to Elan Vital on the ORG homepage !

ps thanks for the lift home in that spiffy ecological car.and nice meeting Kevin.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:07:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A clear and valid analysis
Message:
This definition and list of characteristics is very well-done. It makes Elan Vital's efforts to weasel its way out of the mold seem silly and futile.

Michael MacDonald recently indicated that there was at least one Elan Vital bigwig who willingly acknowledges the obvious fact that Elan Vital is a cult. It really is undeniable to anyone who carefully studies the subject.

But it is perfectly possible to accept that Elan Vital is a cult and that Rawat is a cult leader, and to still maintain one's belief in Maharaji and Knowledge. I think that the major weakness of Pia's site (and it is indeed a very weak effort), is their silly and transparent denial of cult status.

Elan Vital's position would be stronger if they simply said: 'ok, we're a cult, but we've got the true master and the true experience, so so what? Sure, we have a master and a hierarchy, we have videos and magazines and progogation, mind calming techniques, controlled information about personal lives, and a budget that requires donations. But it makes us happy and it is all valid for us!'

All the second-guessing and confusion over Maharaji's status is equally silly. Why can't he just be upfront about it all? I don't remember Shri Hans always hiding behind duplicitous language about himself. Da Ananda certainly doesn't mince words about His exalted status, and he isn't lacking in devotees. Afterall, what does a devotee want? Someone grand and worth dedicating to, for heaven's sake, not some politically correct mere mortal.

I strongly suggest that Maharaji give darshan this Saturday at Nottingham, and on Sunday as well. Heck, wear a mala or two! Arti, too. Whip those premies into a frenzy and if the British media and Parliment doesn't like it, then screw'em. Face facts, Rawat, you've never filled those stadium seats with senators and journalists anyway. If you're gonna be a master with the divine goodies, then who cares about the packaging? Any potential future Janice Wilsons out there are gonna go for the glitz and the love, so go for it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:34:42 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ** The Most Outstanding Post Ever on this Forum **
Message:
Well, the piss taking below required me to up the ante. But, Joe, this is an awesome post, and I don't think any premie would dare to respond, and any who read it with even one free brain cell will exit immediately.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:50:07 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: ** The Most Outstanding Post Ever on this Forum **
Message:
Excellent ammunition Joe. I quite agree John...how is life in dear old Latvia, down on the farm? Much enjoyed meeting you at the London Latvian Event
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:37:32 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: FA-doesn't this deserve a place on homepage?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:51:09 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Clarification
Message:
Please note that the Forum 5 FAs look after the forum, nothing else. If you want to save posts from the forum elsewhere, you are free to do so. If you want someone else to save posts from the forum elsewhere, then ask them. Don't ask us!

Actually, by highlighting the post the way JHB and others have here should bring it to the attention of those who save such gems.

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:05:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Life in Latvia (again off topic)
Message:
Thanks Tim, great meeting you and I was just sorry I didn't ask you to autograph my copy of KOTS, and where was my complementary copy of your new album?:-)

I think you would love life here. Latvia and Ireland have much in common, although of course Latvia has better weather. I look after my horses, my land, forest, pretend to look after my mother (although of course she still looks after me), and generally feel that gratitude and that appreciation for life (as there's so fucking much of it all around me!).

John the found what he didn't know he was looking for.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:23:35 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Life in Latvia (again off topic) I fancy buying a
Message:
farm there myself. I'm sick of the noise and dislocation of life in London - I want my own forest, and a horse (or small pony would do - i can't ride!) and space...Better weather would be a big bonus too. What do you think? How much would it cost? I must look Latvia up on the atlas, come to think of it, I don't know where it is, but as long as it's not England I think I would get to like it - I spoke a bit of Russian once, would that help at all? If you ever told me any of this, I obviously wasn't listening.
#
Glad you're happy there, I'll see you soon!

Jane

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:02:59 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New ex, writing journey, any tips?
Message:
Hi folks,
Just discovered the EPO site a few weeks ago courtesy of a friend (an ex-p). Have been reading site voraciously, and am writing my journey. Mishler was right - we are all spiritual beings who have experiences - we allowed ourselves to be conned into attributing the experiences and credit for them to Rawat. Was active USA DLM 1973-1984. Drifted away in 1984, made break in 1989 with baptism.

And now I find there's still so much to deal with and process! Thought I was over this stuff; so many layers underneath! When will I be able to untangle myself from the feeling/tone of Arti?

My head is full of memories and song lyrics. For those who have written or who are writing their Journey - seek some advice:
- Does the process ever end?
- What stuff is valuable or of interest to others?
- How many versions - or do you just revise it every year?

Thanks to all of you who have established the site and made it such a viable tool for healing.
Henry

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 07:01:20 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Henry
Subject: Hey there, Henry!
Message:
How are you? Welcome to the world of former devotees of the living Lord! Given the time that you were involved, you undoubtedly knew Captain Rawat as the present personification of God.

Writing your journey is a soul - plumbing experience. It took me many hours to write mine. I was involved between '72-'76, but like you, when I read the information on this site, I realized that there were many issues I had never really confronted and resolved about my involvement in the cult. Even though I had turned away from Maharaji and DLM/EV decades earlier, I found myself frightened to criticize Maharaji on the forum. Seeing people discuss the techniques publicly was scandalous to me -- even though I no longer cared at all about whether they were secret or not. The posts and information I read here made me realize how much cult conditioning I still had over 20 years after leaving the cult.

When you talk about what got you into the cult and what got you out, and even the meaningful experiences and friendships in between, you help us all to understand you and our own experiences better. Many of us did have positive experiences along the way, and formed life long friendships with people who still are premies. Sorting out all these issues is why we are here.

I was on Soul Rush. Do tell about your experience there.

I wish you the best in writing about all of this for us. You can email me if you want.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:56:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Greetings, Henry
Message:
Hi Henry -
I wrote my journey in 1997 before I ever started posting on the forum - have never updated it (although I keep intending to). When I go back and read it, it's an accurate reflection of how I was feeling when I first found ex-premie.org, and I think that's helpful - even though I've changed since then.

I think most people would be interested in whatever you write, so wouldn't worry about that. And I have found that none of the Journeys are really 'better' than others - people connect with different ones.

Here's what I would write (but you definitely don't have to follow this outline):
How you got into following Maharaji - usually includes some stuff about your past 'before M'.
What happened during the time you were involved - can be very short or very long :), depending on what you did. Including funny or sad stories that someone who has never been a premie can't really understand.
How and why you left - and how you coped with it, and your life after leaving.
Your thoughts about the whole thing.

I encourage you to go ahead and write it - even if you aren't completely satisfied with the result. I think writing one is very therapeutic, and I also believe that the Journey section of the site helps other people who find the site very much.

Actually, your post is a good start!

Take care - and welcome -
Katie (Mischa)

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 05:16:44 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Katie H and Everyone
Subject: Thanks for tips, 4 pages into it now
Message:
Thanks for your tips and support. Katie's outline was especially helpful. I also went back and read some more journeys (such as the ones some of you wrote).

Four pages - and have only covered 2 years. I'm sure I'll edit it down later - but now the floodgates are opened and there's so much narrative to be said.

So much sadness. Not so much for the stupid things I did (actually some of those are quite funny in hindsight), but rather for the unsaid goodbyes. Saying goodbye has always been an issue, but I've gotten better at it in the last 10 years. Now that I'm in my late 40's, it's important for me to express what I feel in the moment, and express my appreciation to those people who have crossed my path.

I met so many great people through the whole MJ adventure. Wish I could thank some of them for the moments and friendship we shared along the way. Hope to connect with some of them through the EPO website. Unwilling to attend any active premie events although some of my old friends keep inviting me. Once journey comes out I'll probably lose them too.

I really appreciate your support. It's a lot easier writing when you know there's an interested audience. Better than writing boring term papers at college. Life sure hasn't been boring. Except for meditation!

For Patrick and anyone else who's curious, here's
the gist so far:
1972 - I, depressed college student, hear about MJ
1973 - Get K from Jagdeo in Washington DC. Excited. Go to Guru Puja in London. Give away all possessions, savings. Freak out family. Move into premie house. Go on Soul Rush and to Houston Astrodome.
1974 - Go back to school and drop out again. Couldn't make it without premie/social support. Move into Indianapolis premie house & aspire to ashram. Live with premies for 3 years
1976 - Donate most of inheritance to DLM, get to meet Mishler in Denver. Finished college in Indianapolis.
1977 - get into new ashram
1980 - Donate the rest of inheritance. Black Lightning strikes, several ashram premies deprogrammed; Indianapolis ashram closed, I was transferred to East Orange NJ
1982 - East Orange closed -Loring's Lila- go to work for premie business in Chicago.
1984 - premie business reduces staff, laid off. Move to Denver
1984 - start studying metaphysics, new ideas cause me to drift away from MJ
1988 - get involved in 12 step program for codependency. Helped.
1989 - join non-fundamentalist esoteric Christian church, get baptized
1992 - take comparative religions class; conclude DLM was cult
1999 - reconnect with old p friend
2001 - old p friend reveals he's an ex-p, discover EPO web site

Thanks again, Henry

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:01:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Thanks, Henry, for your curriculum vitae cultorum
Message:
I'm just a very nosy person and enjoy getting to know the people who post here. I'm looking forward to reading more of your writings. Best wishes.
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 15:09:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Hi again, Henry
Message:
Glad you found what I wrote to be helpful.

About 'unsaid goodbyes' - I know what you mean. I hate to say goodbye to people, so I often don't. Thinking about it brings up a lot of sadness. I met some wonderful people when I was a premie.

BTW, if you were in the DC area circa 1972 onward, I might know you. I was called 'Mischa' then - and I was real young.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:22:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Henry
Subject: Wish I could help but haven't written mine yet
Message:
Welcome, Henry. Why not start by just telling us a bit about yourself? I have found that some of my posts here have actually become part of my Journey. There's no rush to post a Journey. I'll eventually figure out what bits to include. Of course everyone wants to know the basics like where, when, why and how you got involved with Maharajism.

Anyway, hi - I'm Patrick Conlon from San Francisco and I started posting here five months ago.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:27:42 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Hi Henry!
Message:
You said:

My head is full of memories and song lyrics. For those who have written or who are writing their Journey - seek some advice:
- Does the process ever end?
- What stuff is valuable or of interest to others?
- How many versions - or do you just revise it every year?

I left on end of 1999 and not as much as then, but the 'recording' resurfaces once in a while, but all is sooooo much better now! I feel great!!

Of course you will get over it. I doubt though we can forget ever what he did to us. He had no right to invade such a personal place us our hearts are.

Love is real and Rawat doesn't have a clue what that is. Materialistic bastard!

Not the material things are wrong, I always appreciate comfort and toys but the fact that he lied to us asking for money through his minions to 'propagate k' and it went to his pockets and his stupid holi family still makes me furious.

yes, make fun of him: MAHARAJI IS A DORK!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:16:19 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: New ex, writing journey, any tips?
Message:
write what you want the way you want it. you are not going for audition. and don't be embarressed to talk about all the stupid think you did for hahaji. We all did it and were all free.

BE WHO YOU ARE

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:18:56 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: New ex, writing journey, any tips?
Message:
Big Welcome To You Henry! I came by approx. the same as you and also thought M & K & premies were behind me. But the shock waves emanating from the core of being surprised the Hell out of me. Really. Someone posted the Vows last week and I realized why the shock of the Whole Picture disturbed me. The Forum is a good place to be for me to be at this time in my life. Personally, I want to do everything I can to STOP M in his tracks. Until my footprint is firmly imbedded in his butt. Does this sound very spiritual? Maybe not. But either was he.

I haven't posted my journey yet. I'm glad I waited because my experience, perception, and emotions have shifted since my first revelation. It really sucks, doesn't it.

I placed my email for you...if you would like to talk to a fellow New-Ex who thought the experience was just an extended adolescence.

Take everything real easy until your body and mind find their equilibrium, we know exactly what you're going through. And yes, it will get significantly better in a short while. Guaranteed!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:25:01 (GMT)
From: Sorry, me again
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Forgot something....
Message:
My email is: stars@uvic.ca

Call if or when it feels good to you.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:40:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Welcome Henry
Message:
Henry,

Just write what you think and feel now. Brian, the EPO webmaster, will accept changes later. Journeys are the one part of the ex-premie site that still belong to the contributors, so you are free to do whatever you like with what you write in the future.

I don't like my journey entry now, and in the two and a half years since I exited, I've learned so much, I know I need to revise it. But I will probably learn more in the next two and a half years, so where are the milestones?

Welcome again!:-)

John Brauns

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:44:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: New ex, writing journey, any tips?
Message:
Dear Henry,
I suggest writing it is a healing tool for yourself without thinking too much about your audience. You can always revise it later or update it later.

I am sure that you will hit on something you feel passionately about, and that will carry your writing. I know for me that the thing that really hit me hard were the health problems that a lot of ex-premies (including myself) seem to have. That got me thinking about all the ways the trip is unhealthy mentally and physically.

The thing is, Henry, you are in a constant process of growth. What you write today will be very different from what you will want to say 2 years from now, nevertheless, you have something important to share NOW that others will connect with. It can be short and sweet or long and complex. But hopefully your journey will help YOU sort through all your feelings abotu having been in a cult.
Good luck
helen

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:54:21 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Welcome Henry!
Message:
Appreciate your contributions to the forum. I am here about 2 months, and have not written mine yet. But this is a great place with many creative and smart people. I get to communicate about topics I cannot discuss at work etc.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:29:53 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Welcome Henry!
Message:
Good to welcome you aboard. I'm only here about 6 months but have enjoyed reading and occasionally contributing immensely. Haven't written my journey yet mainly out of laziness but will do so soon. Would love to hear your story. Yes, we seem to be able to discuss quite a range of topics via the coomon thread of culthood. I'm sure we will hear more from you soon!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:45:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Really Pia
Message:
couldn't the photographer come up with anything better. I mean this picture really sucks. I did a better on some time ago. If you like I can send it to you.

Also, you tell us on your site that we the faceless, nameless, unknow minority are pissing you off. How come? Since I noticed that you had 'hundred of thousands' of follower.

You are either misguided or just another 'losser' like your guru.

You know why?

I tell you why. You say that you had 115,000 hits since you went on which is about 40 days, that makes it 2875 hits a day. Not exactly hundreds of thousnds hits init? You also say that you had 6000 unique visitors. That is less that a piss in the ocean. Are you telling me, all over the world, with about 20 different website promoting you, secret e-mails sent, all the crap you give in video presentation, you only had 6000 unique visitors. 6000 bloody unique vistors and it took you thirty years to do that, man, you are a winner. and how many of these hits are from ex-premie web site lately? common, don't be such a 'looser', we all have websites and read stats.

So there you go mama Pia. 115,00 sound impressive, but how long you'll keep it that way? Your site is really boaring already if it was not for the ex-premies getting the hits in.

On a different note I also noticed that you said that your web site is not here for debate, but to inform. Well isn't that nice. You lot being such a bunch of 'looser' have no idea what debate is do you. Cause you, your lot and your guru are a group of brain deads. So am not taking this issue with you, case you can't deal with it. Of course when it comes to inform, you only inform your way don't you?

I mean here we are, a bunch of unknown nameless group of dogs chasing a lion. Well, I tell you something, your lines has no balls and you should really be ashemed of it. And did you know that in Africans there is a breed of dogs that is used to hunt lions. They are dogs that don't bark, sneak up on him a tear him to pieces. So I guess it is your poor'lil cudly fat ass guru lions' turn ha?

Woof Woof, grrrrrrrrr

Anyway, can't tell you how much am enjoying your crap web site and replying to your 'aligations'.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:25:36 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yes, Jim, Jim Sander, et. al., this is the kind of
Message:
post that really shows you guys off to best advantage. So deep, so penetrating, so conscious. I'll bet anyone who's examining the values of the various positions re Maharaji will be deeply moved by this reasoned missive...... :--) Keep it up, kids.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:06:02 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: oh, we got one
Message:
Mr William. How do you do? I see that you are not amused with what I said Mr. Williams.I hope I did not offend Sir?

What is it that you are objecting to, me lad?

If you have something to say Mr Williams why don't you tell us please?

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:27:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: I know what you mean but Salam just takes a bit of
Message:
getting used to. He's emotional, English is his second language and he's a computer geek. That's three severe handicaps right there. He also has a very dry sense of humor, Mr Williams. Very wry.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:11:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: PatC
Subject: I know what you mean but Salam just takes a bit of
Message:
God, imagine calling your self Mr. William, like Mr PatC, sheesh.

Hey while we are at it, you are the resident swami expert in the meditation techniques. You posted one day about the order of the techniques, can't find it. Do you have a copy of the post? If not can you please e-mail me, need to ask you something and I don't want Mr.Williams here to know of it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:04:03 (GMT)
From: Mr PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I'll email you MISTER Salam - NT
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:00:28 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Furipous ex-premie org.
Message:
I'm just reposting PatC's post to Silvia... cos I think it's funny, and a curiously apt description of this place....
a fantasmorgorical mix of fury and pussy-cat purring. (Oops, no reference to Catweasel intended!!!)

Silvia, best typo of week: ''furipous ex-premies!'

The extra pee makes it sound much more angry than furious and I bet it has M peeing in his pants.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:58:32 (GMT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: WOW!!! What a amazing site this is!
Message:
I typed in Maharaji and got your web site. Wow!! A lot of work went into it!!! I was fascinated. I read for about 3 hours. I had no idea that all this stuff had gone on. I had no idea that there were so many people that hate Maharaji. I had no idea that so many people were bitter.
I don't know who he is. And in reading all this stuff it made me reexamine my life and Knowledge.
I don't give Maharaji money and I haven't for years. I don't work with the 'premies to spread his Knowledge and I haven't for years. As far as Maharaji fucking around, being involved in an accident that killed someone and then left the scene, being a drunk, having a lot of money and things, etc, etc, etc. it really doesn't have anything to do with what I feel inside. I have never practiced the meditation because of Maharaji so those thing, that in all probability are true, don't change what I do.
I have Knowledge and I make it my first priority. I make sure that I practice at least 2 hours every morning and because of this I have a wonderful time in my life. Things sometimes are good, things sometimes are bad but a constant thing is going on inside me that I feel and it makes it so that I can feel good regardless of what is going on in my life.
As far as loving Maharaji, or anyone for that matter, I have one rule and that is 'let the love go where it goes'. If a bad man is open to my love, my love flows to him. If a good man is not open to love then there is no point in trying to love him. To keep love from flowing to someone, good or bad, if they are open doesn't work. This is something that I have come to in dealing with inter personal relationships and has nothing to do with Maharaji but in thinking about ex-premie.com I see that I need to apply it to Maharaji. And if I'm ever around Maharaji I will not give him the benefit of the doubt, but see if my love flows to him or not.
What I thought about when reading all this stuff was that these people are not meditating. Because if they were none of this stuff would matter. Maharaji is a con artist. Who cares, don't give him money. Maharaji is a fraud. Who care, don't believe in him. Maharaji is a drunk. Great I'd love to go out drinking with him 'cause I like to drink too. Maharaji is human and not God. Fine, Why were you worshiping him in the first place? Because he told you to? Because everyone else was? Because you wanted to worship somebody? Why? Why did you worship him? Obviously for a reason that wasn't real because if it was real you would still be doing it.
Is Maharaji God or is he human? If he is God he can do anything and it doesn't matter. If he is human then he is human, just like you and me, full of faults, greed, lust, etc. but who cares. If he is God I go inside and enjoy a wonderful thing in me, and if he is human I go inside and enjoy a wonderful thing in me. Who cares?
I don't do anything that isn't in my direct benefit anyway and that includes Maharaji. If a bad man gave me a million dollars I would take it. If a good man gave me a million dollars I would take it.
If Maharaji is God and I was loving him for the wrong reasons the deal would fall apart. If Maharaji is human and I loved him only when my love flowed to him, him being a con or whatever, but I only loved him when he was open, then even if he were a con artist, murderer, greedy, lust driven son of a bitch it would be fine. I just wouldn't give him any leeway in those other areas. Like I said, I have learned that I have to let my love flow to where it flows and if you try to stop it, it doesn't work. And I'm not talking about Maharaji here, I'm talking about what I've learned in my inter personal relationships.
20 years ago I was in the ashram and I was told to leave. At first I was upset, then I was glad. The ashrams were off. They were stinking up the scene pretty bad. It was the best thing that happened to me to get out of that ashram. I'm glad it happened for it was the first time in a long time I started to meditate for the peace that I wanted Knowledge for in the first place. I had created a cult. With Maharaji's help? Sure, but it doesn't matter for I take full responsibility for my and actions. What about you? If a thief gets you to steal and you do, do you blame the thief? Maybe you do but I didn't. I said, 'My life is fucked up, I'm going to fix it, and I did. I threw out all the crap and kept what I saw as good. And now that I know about Maharaji being a greedy, mother-fucking bastard who smokes pot and is a drunk who has uses people, I will still throw out all the bad and keep what I see is good. I still meditate 2 hours a day and enjoy it. I really do. It is the highlight of my day and I have a fun life. I'm going to Europe, taken by, paid by this hottie woman. I have a good life, I have a lot of fun but the highlight of my day is meditating. I have love in my life it is inside of me. It can't be messed with, not even by a greedy, mother-fucking bastard who smokes pot and is a drunk who has uses people.
For the last 20 years it has been real for me. I have only done what is good for me. If all that is on ex-premie.com is true times 10 it doesn't matter to me for I have been true to myself in my relationship with Maharaji and in what I have done with the meditation. And if you were true to yourself you wouldn't be bitching either. So what if he is a fake. Who cares. For the last 20 years I only did what I wanted to do with the whole thing anyway. Since I was thrown out of the ashram I've reexamined it and only kept what was real and because of that it's been nothing but good.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:56:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Glad it tickled your fancy as long as it didn't
Message:
make you pee in your pants. As Silvia said - it taught her not to post on her way to the toilet.

What a treat to talk to you and Nigel on the phone. Of course you still sound like you're 20. Now I can't wait for you to come to SF. Funny though, even after seeing 20 of the faces behind the names here, I still think of everyone here as 20 something - settling the world's affairs, boiling with inspiration and idealism.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:33:22 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: tickled my fancy but managed to avoid peeing!
Message:
Treat to talk to you tooo.... Have Emailed you..... In rush as got one daughter in Africa who feels ill and am trying to sort it out.... and M going to darkest Peru .... will have kids scattered all over the globe...
And YES we are all still 20 (though Nige can manage 15 in the right lighting conditions!)xxxxxx
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:59:20 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: ROFL nt
Message:
hahahahaha
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:02:31 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: premies and new age
Message:
I am surprised how many premies complement their synchronized premthink with wacky new age philosophies. In the 70s this was very politically incorrect! But even then a lot of non - ashram premies read new age books, and they were secretly borrowed by ashram premies. I never found any endorsement from rawat about this stuff. I guess his stripped down version of religion is not appealing enough, even for premies, so they go out to do some grazing..
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:36:20 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: New age? My eye!!!!
Message:
'A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.'
-- William James

'Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself.'
-- Vilfredo Pareto

'It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.'
-- John Wooden

'We hold that each man is the best judge of his own interest.'
-- John Adams

Bob, are these guys new age enough for you?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:19:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: William James
Message:
What have you read and pondered written by William James, L27? I think he's the most brilliant philosopher ever produced by America. It baffles me that you would be impressed by such a clear thinker as James and Maharaji (who at best is only clever now and again) at the same time.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Lurker #27
Subject: ***Above Average Of Forum***
Message:
Joking of course, but really love your quotes.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:41:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: What's your point? (nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:31:01 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: New thoughts are always like, ridICULED? (nt)
Message:
fffffffffffffffffffff
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:39:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Yeah, but so are bad ones
Message:
Fact is, most ideas find at least some supporters and some critics along the way. You have to look at why something's ridiculed, not just the fact that it is. You certainly can't reasonably say that just because something's ridiculed it must be right. That's ridiculous.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:43:50 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, but so are good ones
Message:
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotion; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement, and at the worst, at least fails while daring greatly.
-- Theodore Roosevelt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:49:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Naw, you missed my point (nt)
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:44:54 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, it's easy to criticize and ridicule (nt)
Message:
Let me leave you with two last quotes and perhaps you'll start to grok what I'm getting at. If not, no biggie!

'Do what you wanna, do what you will;
Just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill.
And when you pay the bill, kindly leave a little tip
To help the next poor sucker on his one-way trip.'
-- Frank Zappa, 'You Are What You Is'

'Be excellent to each other.'
-- Bill, or Ted, in 'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure'

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:27:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: especially when something's ridiculous (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:03:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lurker #27
Subject: Maybe if you quit with the quotes .......
Message:
What's with all this quote shit? You got something to say? Say it. Here, I'm afraid, you started off 'replying' if I can call it that, to Bob's post. In fact, you seem to be challenging him with vigour: 'New Age? My eye!!!' But then you don't say anything! And when I try to discuss what you're saying -- or not saying -- you just throw these quotes out. Why?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:49:08 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They never reply to the point.......(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:38:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Bobby: re 'new age'
Message:
Hey Bobby,

Funny you should use the term 'grazing' as I contemplate another mouthful of wheatgrass to munch...

Also, funny thing about 'new age' in general. Most of it is definitely 'old age' information being reintroduced into the mainstream cult-ure. Life on other planets visiting here, the power of minerals - crystals particularly, the study of reincarnation, healing ways and natural remedies to disease, what really happened to Jesus and others who came to give and what they were really about, these are just some of the buzz-subjects that come up that are by no means new information....just hidden things that have resurfaced. The fact that some of this has survived underground for so long and has come out again is testimony to the greater possibility that there is truth in there somewhere.

I can remember when bell bottoms came out when I was in college. They were hot and new and everybody had them to show they were hip to what was 'in'. But they didn't invent bells in the 60's. The Navy has been using them forever for practical purposes and they have also been in and out of vogue in fashion. I think ideas and realities are the same to the general population, in and out of fashion based on totally unrelated matters.

I recently did a video shoot in NYC for a very large investment firm. The assembled companies represented were involved in global energy creation and distribution, big stuff, Ann Rand novel stuff. Companies like GE, Ingersoll Rand, Siemens... You would have smiled at the fact that so many of the largest companies on earth who deal in energy are so into hydrogen fuel cells, wind and solar farms, heat collectors etc...

As I stood there in the back of the hall, watching all this through my trusty Ikegami viewfinder, I realized I was watching the physical manifestation of a Whole Earth Catalog that I read while in college some 30 years ago. These big guys let the hippies and the wackos and the 'new agers' do all the testing and trial and error stuff over the last few decades, then jumped into it more recently when the politics and the money and the public atmosphere (and the actual earth atmosphere) was at an almost breaking point. Now it's accepted and will become the norm.

It's early and I am sort of foggy...but do ya get what I'm trying to say? Like Leon Russell said, 'If my words don't come together, listen to the melody of my love in there shining...' (A Song For You, Leon Russell, 1970)

The truth is where you find it, and don't be fooled by the packaging, be it plain or fancy, old or new. In the reality of what is Truth, there is no old or new, only Now. Those who came before us tried to leave the trail blazed. Some trail marks got messed with and some are intact. I am just sticking with the Golden Rule and Love and trying to put the rest together like the rest of us.

Hope you are feeling well.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:11:21 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'new age'
Message:
It is not so much the topics as well as the way 'information' is gathered. I label 'new age' as negative where there is mindless absorption about hearsay truths, true or not. There it is consistent with premiethink, and there it is a plug to fill up the emptiness in the package of rawat.
It is the way adolescents think: come up with great ideas but don't test them in the real world, maybe they are not so great after all, or maybe they are flawed.

About the new earth catalog: I loved to read them in those days. it showed me more than anything else the possibilities of America vs Europe. But it took the space program to develop those ideas into working models.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:11:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Hey, check out Rawat's own newageisms!
Message:
'A mindless absorption of hearsay truths' .... That's good, Bob. How about anyone who uses 'information' the way Sandy just did?

Anyway, Rawat's satsang excerpt from Amaroo last September came in the EV newsletter yesterday:

Even in the year 2000, nothing has changed. That which was being said hundreds of years ago is still true. Now, there is a 500-megahertz computer. But did you really think this was going to change reality? Because in reality, that already existed. Human beings, as they go along, will stumble on many more discoveries. All the possible achievements that human beings can ever make already exist: they have simply not yet been discovered. But it is all controlled by that same time, it is all controlled by that same reality. And this reality dwells within. This reality is sweet and beautiful. This reality is within you and it comes humbly every day, every second, every moment into you, and you're alive. It's the simplest of all simplicities. It has no dualities, it has no doubt. It is a clarity, and it shines, and it's beautiful. Things will change. I remember the first Apple. It didn't even have a screen. There was no software for it, so you had to write your own. Now, they have 500-megahertz computers. But even if a 10,000-megahertz computer came along, I will still breathe. Maybe a 10,000-megahertz computer will allow me to be more creative, but that is only compliments of the power that keeps me alive. Because if I lose that power, do you think that 10,000-megahertz computer is going to keep me alive?

Check out the perverse abuse of words and logic. 500 megahertz computers won't change reality because in reality they already existed? Nothing changes. Everything changes. Blah, blah, blah .... nothing means anything ....

Sounds pretty damn new age to me.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:40:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: But Jim
Message:
It's not in the words, it's in the feeling - hasn't that sunk in yet?

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:42:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I guess I've fallen and I can't get up (nt)
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:33:26 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, check out Rawat's own newageisms!
Message:
Fuckingbastardface:
Now, they have 500-megahertz computers. But even if a 10,000-megahertz computer came along, I will still breathe.

Yes, well, pardon?????

Can't think of a retort... it's one of those sentences guaranteed to fuse your brain....
He probably got a pocket-book of Zen Koans for Christmas...
would take him til June to read it. Oh, I forgot, he doesn't read (books) does he?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:49:58 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: And Shri Hans writing to JFK (!!!) in 1961...
Message:
Mind-boggling stuff from the Indian background Index... it's long but believe me - it's worth it!

Man is the primary unit of human race. What affects the man affects the whole world. As for development of any branch of learning, instructions are imparted to individual student, similarly for establishment of peace and happiness, instructions could easily be imparted to each individual to acquire equanimity of mind. And by a planned programme desired results could be achieved very quickly. Book education takes more than a decade but equanimity of mind can be acquired even within an hour. The only thing most needed is the intense desire for it.

Mind attains equanimity and tranquility by concentration on DIVINE LIGHT which is eternal, omnipresent, constant and everlasting. Visualisation of this self-effulgent Divine light within ownself absolves the mind of all delusions and the germs of lust, greed, hatred, fear and jalousies - real causes of conflicts and miseries are burnt to ashes. It releases the force of unity amongst all living beings and eliminates the forces of disruption.

A man with equanimous mind can not do harm to any living being. He sees the same omnipresent soul in all men. The current of his thoughts influences other also and even the most ferocious animal is rendered incapable of inflicting any harm in his presence. If the equanimity of mind is attained by men today wars will be uprooted from this earth root and branch and everlasting peace and happiness will descend on this earth spontaneously.

Visualisation of Divine Light and the knowledge of the real name of the Almighty God cannot be acquired by study of books, performance of penance, sacrifices or rituals or by counting of beads. It is acquired with the personal contact and with the help of the Realised soul - SAD-GURU of the time only. A candle cannot be burnt by recital of its burning formulas nor can it be burnt by its contact with any extinguished light. It can be burnt by its physical contact with a burning light only. Similarly visualisation of Divine Light and Knowledge of His real Name is acquired by the personal contact contact with and aid of the living REALISED SOUL - SADGURU only.

His real Name is incapable of being written by alphabets of any literature. It cannot be uttered with tongues. It is capable of being realised only. It is present in all living beings alike. Only man can, however, realise it. All living beings are conscious of His real Name while in the womb. It is capable of being meditated upon in all circumstances - whether awake or asleep, whether engaged in wars or while relaxing. It is the same for all. Knowledge of His such omnipresent Real Name quickly helps visualisation of Divine light and absolves mind of all delusion and weakness.

Lord Jesus Christ, Lord Krishna, Lord Buddha, Swami Ramkrishna were all realised souls and they taught this truth. Lives of lacs of people in India today who have acquired visualisation of Divine Light and the knowledge of His Real Name with the kind help of Paramsant Sadgurudev Shri Hansji Maharaj of Haridwar bear testimony to the truth that they have identified themselves with all living beings and while working in various spheres of life, their minds are absolutely absolved of all feeling of caste, creed, religion, region, position, fear, hatred and the like. They are quite happy in themselvses. They know no misery. No event of the world disturbs them even the least.

If the mankind of the world or even a substantial number of them would acquire this faculty of mind, all the conflicts and miseries would be eliminated and peace and happiness would down on this earth spontaneously. And in this way a new world could be created where there will remain no wars, no misery and everlasting peace and happiness would reign. The intensity of your desire to root out miseries and to bring peace and prosperity to the mankind, discerned in your inaugural speech has encouraged me to address you this letter and to seek your leave to request you to personally acquire the visualisation of the DIVINE LIGHT and the knowledge of HIS REAL Name within yourself. In this you might be helped by Paramsant SAD-GURU DEV Shri Hansji Maharaj of Prem Nagar, Haridwar (INDIA).

He is the Realised Soul of the present age.

My favourite bit just has to be:
A man with equanimous mind can not do harm to any living being. He sees the same omnipresent soul in all men. The current of his thoughts influences other also and even the most ferocious animal is rendered incapable of inflicting any harm in his presence. (!!!!!)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:04:28 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: And Shri Hans writing to JFK (!!!) in 1961...
Message:
Cool.. Where on earth did you find that? Although I did grow out of this kind of stuff, it does sound so much better than his son. At least he stays within his tradition. Did he really write this himself or was it one of his followers (still remember professor Tandon? (India))That guy could get anyone to sleep!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:26:48 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Bob - here's how you find it...
Message:
Click on DLM/EV Papers (up top here)
You get the Indian Background of DLM
Scroll down to 'What's New on this Website'
Click on it and then scroll down to
September-October- November... Shri Hans Letters

That was just an excerpt from his letter
There's another funny one to Bertrand Russell!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:02:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: What about Sharon Stone's husband then?
Message:

A man with equanimous mind can not do harm to any living being. He sees the same omnipresent soul in all men. The current of his thoughts influences other also and even the most ferocious animal is rendered incapable of inflicting any harm in his presence. (!!!!!)

Shri Hans said that? Hm, if it's true -- and, of course, I have no reason to doubt him but rather strive to keep an open mind -- wouldn't that mean that Sharon Stone's husband whose toe got bit by a Komodo Dragon lizard on their private V.I.P. tour of the L.A. Zoo the other day didn't have an equanimous mind? Not sure what to make of all this ....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:35:29 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Beware Jim .. you see you need to keep the current
Message:
of your thoughts off the Komodo dragon if you ever find yourself confronted by one...
Or, to put it another way (just in case you're not getting it),
you need to influence the current of the Komodo dragon's thoughts rather than the other way around...
On then other hand, you could leg it... that is if you still have both legs reasonably intact.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:10:05 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Komodo (OT)
Message:
Since I watch more Discovery channel than read paparazzi: How are the docs dealing with this bite. Those dragons have a coctail of the most deadly bacteria in their mouth. I guess all the antibiotics they can find?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:25:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Komodo (OT)
Message:
Yeah, the bacteria was specifically mentioned in the report. I imagine they're doing just that.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:22:20 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: rather than a class action suit..
Message:
..it seems to me that getting the press involved is the way to go. The article in Combat seems to prove that. It might be wishful thinking on my part but it sure seems as if our favorite cult has gone on the defensive even more since the publication.

The best part of it to me is that the more defensive they become the more absurd they appear. Pia's site(if it's still up)is a great example. The more they work on re-shaping their own members memory, the more members will wake up and see what's being perpetrated on them.

The cults weakness is the cult owner, of course, and, their embarrassment of their past. Everytime they attempt a new revisionist stategy, they prove they are ashamed of their owner and their past.

The press is the best way to attack since that is what the GOLDEN HOOVED ONE fears most.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:50:23 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Why don't we all write to one paper, mag, etc....
Message:
And, not just the Big papers, small local ones that people read and keep around the house. The talent in this forum is formiddable. Think of the time and energy we individaually put into the forum on a given day. We are located in various contenents and could cover a lot of ground in a very short while.

Tip: We could keep the topic CULTS: Awareness & Survival which would include a personal account of our own or group experience and mention the M & K by name. Let's help the bastard propagate the TRUTH...hey, I just took a new Vow.

Also, don't forget: We have enough material to write novels, screen plays, soap operas, sci-fi and make very specific allusions to (his name makes me sick, sorry). If we all participate in some SMALL way we will have a BIG impact. I'm doing what I can, in the meanwhile. I'm setting up appts. at the University to initiate CultAwareness. I am proposing that the University have an annual CultAwareness Day. This would get the attention of local papers, large and small and get tongues wagging. I want other Universities to follow. Any suggestions regarding this idea is welcomed. See email or post.

Let's keep media & public notice a ripe discussion.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:18:43 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Journalism reviews in the US (and maybe UK?)
Message:
Hi Mr. Mind -
I believe that an effective way to get something published in the US/UK (or other English-speaking countries) might be to appeal to a journalism review which reprints selections from print media around the world. The only one I can think of off-hand is the Utne Reader (mostly alternative journalism, which might be the way to go), but I am sure there are more.

After all, the Combat article is already written, is soon to be translated (I think), and appears to be quite effective.

TC -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:19:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Katie, who is translating?
Message:
I agree completely that getting the Combat and other French articles reprinted in other countries is the best idea for further press coverage. Or, in the least, a story about the fact that the story was written in France. But it will need to be translated for that to happen, and I don't know if that is going to happen.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:50:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Don't know - some have volunteered, I think (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:34:47 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: I agree Mind
Message:
and it has to be a group effort to really be heard.

I'm dealing in my private life with a situation where people from my community were prompted to write letter to public officials to report the problems we are having and because only few wrote I received a letter saying that our 'few' letters did not count to take needed actions because the lack of involvement of those who didn't write 'prove' to them (public officials) that the problem was not bad as we reported. So now, we, the people who made a big effort to change our community since 2-1999 have to begin all over again. We have to contact community memebers to let them know what their lack of involvement caused to us, the ones who stood up for our rights to live in a clean, safe and sanitary place. Time and energy wasted.

The only way taht we ex-premies who want to exposse bighead are going to be heard is if we agree in a plan.

My sugestions:

1- We angry ex-premies can put a deadline to write our personal opinions and we send our stements all at the same time to each media member we can find. That will weight. With Outlook Express e-mail program is easy to include the all recipients in the ADD CONTACTS program which will allow us to send our letter to all at once.

2- We can communicate with each other to be sure we include in our statements similar damaging allegations prompting the media to investigate, or use one same letter (there are good writers here who can write such a letter, I'm not one)

3-Somebody (I have some I can post here) can find and post here all e-mail addresses of the media we can send it to. We can also send it to public officials of our governments.

3-When the truth and what have of us have endured is exposed the lawyers will come to us.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:34:05 (GMT)
From: premijiplus1
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: rather than a class action suit..
Message:
So you say and yes your title is right....a master of oneself is not a master over others...except as a mirror to reflect weaknesses....thereby assisting the chela in development of inner strength....
if one is self-empowered the master mirror will reflect that....if one is caught up in vindictiveness, the mirror (guru)..will reflect that....you are right about one thing though, the mirror has no need to defend itself....therefore if a site springs up which is the antithesis of this one...it only shows that like the mirror has said...everything in this world is a 50/50 proposition....both sites will cancel one another out and the ga ga site of pia and the lets get him site of the jilted lovers, here, will both eventually disappear....there are lts more things to discover in life by moving on....digging into the past, where one may have already learned from their mistakes and moved on only holds back the one who refuses to allow the opening to occur in the first place....the press is not concerned with higher wisdom....only selling papers....you guys are being used by the press which doesn't understand the first thing about enlightenment....but is a master-manipulator....so go ahead play the sue me sue you blues and see how far you get.....in this case, it is more like....we refuse to see that gurus are mirrors because we lack clear vision and oneness has never occured to us because we maintain our seperation at all costs......there is a flow of energy....it lives inside of you and me....you can feel the flow everwhere you go....if you join in with the rythm of life...you'll feel alright.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:08:06 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: premijiplus1
Subject: EXCUSE ME...Who do you think you're talking too...
Message:
P-R-E-M-I-E-S...Do you actually think that pathethic load of shit will deter anybody here. Fuck, how naive.

We are not going to talk to press, media, government, about higher consciousness, we are going to them with:

THE DISH, THE SCOOP, ETC. ON A FUCKIN PIECE OF GARBAGE WHO HAS BEEN GOING AROUND THE PLANET FOR 30 YRS. CONVINCING PEOPLE HE IS THEIR SATGURU. HE HAS ACQUIRED THE WEALTH HE HAS THROUGH THE DEVOTEES WHO BELIEVE HE IS GOD. DECEPTION-MURDER-SEX SELLS!!!

The potential headlines will SELL, buddy. You apparently don't have much of an insight on media, at all.

YOU GIVE ME THE HEADLINE AND I'LL GIVE YOU THE WAR
Randolph Hearst

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 03:09:06 (GMT)
From: viet vet survivor
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: EXCUSE ME...Who do you think you're talking too...
Message:
Randolph Hearst gave us the war alright....he arranged for his his son in Law Henry Anslinger to head the Federal Bureau of Narcotics...and with his anti-marijuana campaign, he sucessfully brought down Lewis Armstrong and other greats...he polluted our schools with his marijuana scare films which lied and distorted the truth...people in Oregon have had children taken away...
Here's the truth about your beloved WRH...he had heavily invested in paper making machines...at the time, farmers were growing hemp and making hemp paper....good old Randolf helped think up the FBN and made marijuana illegal....
millions of pot smokers are still under the supression of that asshole...and are victims of the war on people that they call the war on drugs..now it extends to medical-marijuana...the mandate of the people in California for prop 215, is cancelled out because federal law supercedes state law...the Feds call these laws 'sybolic'
When the gulf-war was protested in Calif, 1 of the national news stations didn't even carry it....the war was presented by the media like a video game...
I'm talking to you naieve lady....the media reports what gives negative energy to the most people...with a few human interest stories thrown in.....viet vet survivor
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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:58:19 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: viet vet survivor
Subject: You apparently missed the IRONY
Message:
Although I don't have as much detail on WRH I agree with you.

I quoted WRH to let the media naive person that the media would have a heyday with the dish on these pages.

For some reason the idiot, whose post I was challenging, thought that it would be a waste of our time because the papers don't want to write about 'higher enlightment' or 'spiritual truths'.
See, this type of comment is evident that the person has no idea what we are saying in this forum. He/She thinks we want to stop M for spreading Truth and Love and an exclusive 'gift'.

Sorry you took offense!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:22:22 (GMT)
From: Silvia Ex-premie Ji
Email: None
To: premijiplus1
Subject: Your GURU is too rich and took our money
Message:
See what brainwashing does? You can't think straight.

The past is the past and we should say nothing about it, eh? No, look, a person MUST be responsible for their actions, past and present. We gave him pleanty of opportunities to appologize here but the guru is too proud and cannot admite he peed out of the can.

He still wants more and more possesions, he loves power and toys, he is amaterialistic person and tricked us in giving our possesion with his guru lies. If you are happy of being a sucker some of us don't. So, scram! Get a working brain and that is going to happen ONLY when you live the cult.

Love doesn't have nothing to do with it: Is about the social laws we human live by.

BTW: HE IS NO GOD, YOU DUMMIE. Wake up, is veeeeeeeery nice to be free. Try it. A teacher to tell you are alive? Well, you ain't. You are under his spell, sleeping, emotionally dead, by his plastic grace!

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:12:29 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia Ex-premie Ji
Subject: Good one Silvia /NT
Message:
zzz
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:42:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Silvia Ex-premie Ji
Subject: A teacher to tell you you are alive!
Message:
Classic, Silvia, great one! That says it all.

You are alive. You are breathing. You are sooooo special because you know this. And you waited all your life to find me, so that I could tell you.

I am so grateful. I am so grateful. I am so grateful.

barfo!
LOVE, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:31:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: premijiplus1
Subject: We must be your mirror
Message:
By that piece of flawed juju logic. Gotcha!

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:39:10 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: premijiplus1
Subject: voodoo doll
Message:
Sure there is that flow of energy. life is good. But why on earth has rawat anything to do with that? Because he said so? Because he monopolizes a few yoga techniques?
You are just projecting stuff onto this clown!

'Primitive' religions know better than this: they make a statue and pray for it. They know a statue is a better symbol than a living person.

Because a person is human, with flaws, no better examle than hahaji

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:04:35 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: premijiplus1
Subject: mirror, mirror here's your call
Message:
premijiplus1:
you guys are being used by the press which doesn't understand the first thing about enlightenment....but is a master-manipulator....

JohnT:you premies are being used by Rawat who doesn't understand the first thing about enlightenment....but who is a master-manipulator....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:03:43 (GMT)
From: nagual rain
Email: None
To: premijiplus1
Subject: rather than a class action suit..
Message:
and the women all were beautiful and the men stood straight and
strong, they offered life in sacrifice so that others could go on
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:30:30 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: ***Excellent Post*** nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:03:46 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: That little piece of wire
Message:
PSR at Barcelona on June 1:

'What's my role in it? There is a plant which generates electricity. And then the electricity goes through cables, through transformers, along more wires, on and on, until it reaches this bulb. And in the bulb, there is a tiny little piece of wire. It is very small, but when the electricity passes through it, it lights up. I'm not the generating plant, and I'm not the wires. I'm like that little piece of wire. And when it's dark, and you need to see, a bulb comes in handy.'

This seems to be the latest variation on the recent 'I am the filament' example.

This is downsizing from the 'He is the power station' opinion of the mahatmas.

It begs a question of quantam proportions: 'How can you be the little piece of wire in one bulb and also be the little bit of wire in all the other bulbs?'

One is also tempted to ask: Who are the wires? Who is the generating plant? Is a single person the bulb or is the bulb central to all?

Is it better to light a candle than to curse to the bulb metaphor...?

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:38:21 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: That little piece of wire
Message:
Hi Angel,

It's nice to hear the voice rather than rantings of own of guests.

This quote along with so many others is implying that he is the Supreme radiance (lightbulb) in our stupid dumb dark worlds.

I bet you find the light blinding in this forum, don't you?

Hey F.A. Can we get a dimmer?

I would like to invite you to ask more questions or give us more thought provoking comments. I am very curious what current premies think about M & EV & Forum V & Darshan reruns and whatever is going on in your world.

Deborah

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:35:41 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: listen cult member
Message:
What is so enjoyable about being in a cult and longing to see his greasy face, or dreaming about kissing his stinky dirty swety feet? Please explain.

He wants your money; you are just a number you dummie!

Love is real and is NOT what he preaches. Premies are pathetic low empty entities, full of US AGAINST THEM. Cult baby, is a cult! Enjoy it! Oh yes baby, you are so special. Yeah, right: You are a moron following another moron.

Scram or shut your satsang off!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:32:24 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Silvia - this person is a guest ...
Message:
This person seems very sincere and is reaching out to communicate with us. It is very refreshing to hear the voice of this person. There was a time when you were uncertain, yourself.

Now the irritating flamers who want to jerk us around to feel like they are one of the BigHead's superhero sidekicks are fair game.

This person has clearly shown respect.

Cheers ;-)

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:58:22 (GMT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You are right
Message:
I'm mad, my son told me again today 'maybe he is the LORD' and I had to deal with it...
sorry if I offended anyone. What I said is the truth though.

:)

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 16:41:50 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Hi Silvia - teenage reverse psychology
Message:
Hey Silvia -
You know your son better than anyone else, but it's been my observation that teenagers will often say ANYTHING that they know will provoke a negative reaction from their parents (I can guess what he says to your ex - ha ha!). My sister deals with this all the time - she says the best thing to say is 'I don't agree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion', and not try and talk them out of it. Then there's no argument, and they have to think about what they really DO think - not just react against you.

I know it's not easy!
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 19:30:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: exactly what I was thinking Katie
Message:
That is something my angels would have done at that age just to get to me.
Hang in there Silvia I know it's very hard being a single parent.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:55:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Someone give Silvia a program
Message:
What are you doing, Silvia? Did you even read the post? Try again, you might notice something.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:59:36 (GMT)
From: silvita
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: get a grip, you STRONG being. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:36:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: silvita
Subject: ?? NT
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:45:48 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim, and PatC
Message:
still awake and smelling the coffee...
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:45:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: You were my first tickle of amusement this morning
Message:
as you can see from my post this AM (down the thread). Welcome aboard. You can see from this tower of babel that we are not organized and are not a cult.

love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:38:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Hi Angel, English is second language for Silvia
Message:
I think she didn't catch your wonderful dry sense of humor. I look forward to hearing more from you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 05:01:13 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Then my apologies to Silvia
Message:
for being such a pompous ass to her in the Patricia Johnston thread below.

Compassion tends to be a second language to me.

'Irony is the sunglassses protecting the gazer from being blinded by the false sun of devotion.' - Norman Rockwell

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:52:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: compassion as a second language
Message:
Don't worry, I don't see too many people for whom it isn't!

On the other hand, Silvia (I love you if you're reading this) I wish that Silvia wouldn't start popping off until she's sure she understands what people are saying. One of my good friends moved here from Mexico City, and although she is college educated and an elementary school teacher, she still has a heck of a time with certain types of jokes. Irony supplements definitely needed here.
love,
--f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:57:38 (GMT)
From: SuchaBanana
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: B careful:puppet wires,fake massa/slave strings(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:51:58 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: The answered Angel
Subject: We Are those Lights that light up all humans. (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:50:13 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: The Doubt Fairy
Message:
Dear Angel of Questioning,

You realise that once you start subjecting the Masters discourse to the scrutiny of mere reason, you are on a slippery slope.

M's words are actually unable to stand up to even friendly transcription without heavy editing, let alone survive the inevitable analysis that follows. Unless you are prepared to catch the bird in flight, it is a waste of a devotees time to struggle for meaning after the event. Sooo..

The above passage, for example is utterly ambiguous as it stands. It isn't clear in any way whatsoever from the text what he is on about. We know it was said in a Teacher/audience situation, but, when he says 'I' ,what level of 'I' is he referring to? I-Master,I-Human,like the listener? One is left to speculate.

He starts off with a question. 'What's my role in it?' In what?
Life in general? The Master/student issue? Once again suit yourself.

There follow two 'I'm not's and an 'I'm like', and then Bingo, he's suddenly talking about 'You'! But is it 'you' as in the generalising 'you' -equivalent to 'one' or even 'I', or does he mean the listener, the attentive student? Could be whatever you (one) 'I' decide.

The initial 'question' as to what is his role has probably been forgotten by now. It was never anything more than a prelude to a jumble of suggestive thought images anyway. But it does culminate in the final sentence, directed firmly at the listener.
This inforns us unambiguously that when it's dark, and you need to see, a bulb is useful. Notice the sudden scrupulous logic. When its dark, AND YOU NEED TO SEE, then a bulb etc. It reminds me of the final flurry of blows that boxers do in the last moments of the last round to give a positive last impression.

Anyway, this is obviously the listeners cue to reassemble all the preceding mish-mosh into the suggested mold on offer. Probably some semi-conscious picture floats past in the listners mind like:
'That man talking is a light, and its dark. You (one, he, I,) need to see when its dark, so his role is to be a light' Buggered if I can actually find it in what he said though.

Anyway, waffling aside, my humble point to you is: If your going to dump M, dump him. Why beg questions, or be 'tempted to ask' as you put it. The man's follies surely are not in the realm of philosophy, or linguistics. If your going to ask a question Angel, why not ask a big one. Like exactly what is this Knowlege that I am sworn to secrecy about? And what does it do to me? Or, is there a part of me that imagines P.Rawat to be more than a human being?

Love Bryn

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:06:04 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: The Doubt Fairy
Message:
Dryn,
You are so right on! God, I never used to listen to M's satsangs. How can a person listen to them? I took literally what people said about his satsangs not being 'about the words.' I just tuned him out and surrendered. I was conditioned real good, wasn't I??!! It always amazes me when premies get so much out of his satsangs. They are so juvenile-sounding.

'This life is like an egg. And I ask myself, premies, does the egg have a shell? Is the egg round? WHo created this egg? ANd I just have to ask my Guru Maharaji for help because it is all so much for me, this wondrous universe is so unfathomable.....

Oh I just have to pray to my Guru Maharaji, because this breath, this life is so beautiful.....'

And why was he always talking about himself in the thrid person like that?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:15:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: That little piece of wire
Message:
Ask the electricity company.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:57:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: If you believe in God, is (s)he really that MEAN?
Message:
So, let me get this right. Maharaji is the bottleneck in the production system of energy, necessary to get 'light.' Because he has the monopoly on the 'little piece of wire' you need him or the 'light' process (presumably happiness, clarity, etc.)

What kind of stupid, mean God would set things up like this? Everything is there but the little wire, which is necessary to light, happiness and clarity.

To get the 'wire' you have to go to an extremely unattractive and inarticulate fatboy playboy, who lives an obscenely extravagant lifestyle, and does nothing to even advertise his existence beyond the already converted. He also has a less-than-admirable lifestyle, including substance abuse and adultery.

Then, you have to watch boring and inane videos for six months, finally getting the 'wire' only after being suitably devoted to the 'wireman', which is determined by a bunch of 'instructors.' It will help greatly if you have disposable income that you donate to the 'wireman.' At least in the West, if you aren't at least middle class, you can pretty much forget it. God doesn't like poor people, especially minorities.

Then, after you get the 'wire' you are told it doesn't work half the time because of certain defects (also inserted by the same stupid, mean God) that exist inside you, namely your 'mind,' and it only works if you adopt a belief system, practice harder, and 'participate' through slave labor and donations to the 'wireman.'

Who would set up such a stupid, cruel, system like this, and why would anyone want to be a part of it?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:46:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: The broken filament: Yes, he is a DIM BULB
Message:
And the funny part about that flaming filament is that it is VERY fragile. One day you flip the light switch, and you hear a little pop, the light is a little brighter in a split-second flash and then -- bingo! -- the bulb is dead.

Then you take it out of its socket, and you shake it, and you can hear that little broken filment rattling around in there.

Great analogies, M! Good one, Angel! LOLOLOLs

-f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:22:19 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Excellent and funny post
Message:
Maharaji has got to try and stick himself in there somewhere, otherwise what's the point? Reminds me of the Catholic Church where you HAVE to have a priest to intercede in order to communicate with god - this was a big money maker for them. This was one of the beliefs challenged successfully in the Reformation, btw.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:52:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: That little piece of wire
Message:
Hi Angel,

I used to work for Philips Lighting Company. About the 'little wire' in the bulb, it's called tungsten. It's a major reason the U.S. was in Vietnam, because that area of the world is so rich in tungsten and copper and other minerals. The U.S. bulb companies have been doing a repeat business for decades to the tune of about 4 billion lightbulbs a year based on the planned obsolescence of the tungsten filament bulbs, about a month or so. It burns hot and fast (incandescent light) and breaks. That's why the newer bulbs are a combination of fluorescent (gas) mounted on a screw in base, like an old incandescent. They last years longer and save energy and money and time to replace the bulbs.

But we all know what he means, don't we? I think he is always trying to say that he is the lifeline to life force and we need him to get our light and heat from, no matter what the metaphor or its technical correctness or incorrectness.

I always thought the 'superior power in person' meant that he was the power itself, contained in a body as a step-down transformer to us mortals. Silly me.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:16:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Where'd you get that from?
Message:
It's a major reason the U.S. was in Vietnam, because that area of the world is so rich in tungsten and copper and other minerals.

Where'd you get that from?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:56:39 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It is a geological fact and about us being there,
Message:
sorry Jim, I don't have my footnotes from college. With the internet and all, maybe you could find it yourself. After all, I'm just a new age airhead...(yawn).
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:52:28 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Silly you
Message:
I always thought the 'superior power in person' meant
that he was the power itself, contained in a body as a
step-down transformer to us mortals. Silly me.

Just goes to show how much you know. Just kidding. I think most of us thought that's what it meant, also. But it might as well for all the connotations, like you say, he still claims there's no light without him. He might as well be God if that's the case. In any case, he certainly thinks he's the Messiah, God's chosen one, the one who God lights the world through.

Again, as always, fuck him.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:28:23 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: fundamentalist crap
Message:
'Again, as always, fuck him.'

Jerry, I have to admit that one made me laugh out loud. HA HA!!

Kaite was talking about the reformation above,the notion of each man being his own priest was radical indeed, I am sure. The idea of a Master is so ludicrous to me now. As Disculta once wrote, the whole notion of sitting at the Master's feet waiting for a crumb of truth to fall is so ridiculous, so degrading, when a human being is perfectly capable of discovering wisdom for him or herself. Wisdom only being wisdom on Guru's authority is sucj crap.

You know what really pisses me off? All those satsangs of maharaji's where I disagreed with his fundamentalist stuff ('only through Guru M will you find the light' and such crap) and knew he was totally wrong and didn't trust myself enough to walk away. I mean, this fundamentalist stuff is SUCH CRAP!

Hope you are well, Jerry
Helen

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:57:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: IMO
Message:
I'm not the generating plant, and I'm not the wires. I'm like that little piece of wire. And when it's dark, and you need to see, a bulb comes in handy.'

IMO he's somewhat like a night light in a concentration camp.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:00:26 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: who cares?
Message:
One time he is the power station.
Then the wire.
Then the bulb .
God.
Greater than god.
Just a teacher.
The creator
the humble servant.
The Lord.
.................
and on it goes.
Simply for one who never takes responsibility, he just can declare what he wants.
He still has enough idiotic followers that take that not
having any questions.

Toby

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:52:20 (GMT)
From: SIlvia
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: who cares?Not premies-They love THEIR GODmaharachi
Message:
What a relief to see 'the truth'.

I would like to see him blow a petardo up his ass.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:38:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: What a pretty post, Angel
Message:
I know your questions were rhetorical and steely with irony but I am tempted to answer them since they were posed so prettily at the end of a polite post. Thanks for the quote too.

You asked: ''How can you be the little piece of wire in one bulb and also be the little bit of wire in all the other bulbs?''

Answer: ''PSR is talking about the Inner Maharaji, the one that we pray to even though we don't have to beacuse it it is so close that even a whisper is too loud, the ghost of a Hindu guru in our machines.''

''Who are the wires?''

Sorry I really don't know. Maybe the angels, UFOs, Krishna and the other incarnations of Vishnu? Your guess is as good as mine.

''Who is the generating plant?''

Well, now everyone knows the answer to that question. It's god of course. Of course the filament is greater than the generating plant so it really is a silly question.

''Is a single person the bulb or is the bulb central to all?''

Now, missy, you are being a smarty pants. Of course His Holiness meant that each of us is a dim bulb until the juice hits the filament.

''Is it better to light a candle than to curse to the bulb metaphor...?''

Yes, but we'll forgive you if you curse the dim bulb metaphor just a little bit.

Welcome whoever you are. I like your sense of humor.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:00:53 (GMT)
From: Patricia A. Johnston
Email: Circe009@yahoo.com
To: Susan Haupt
Subject: Realities ... Jagdeo
Message:
Hi Susan!
This is a copy of an e-mail I sent to my son, another premie, who found your site. Please read on, for there are some things we may not have realised are happening.

Dear Denis,
Thanks for the ex-premie site.

What was my reaction? I believe it!

Realities are closing in, and all realities and probabilities are now being exposed to all. Try to search the word 'Bearden' and you will see that his scientific work shows that the opposite polarity of any action shoots off to take manifestation as the opposite action, and is a true reality, though not normally in our known present reality. He explains also that the culmination of all this manifestation is their coming together at some point soon ... in his work, his main point is that there is free energy available through this 'shooting off' and the inefficiency of our electrical gadgets and fossil fuels.

All this separation of realities has changed, so all realities are slowly coming in - I told you on the phone of the Reagan (death announced on CNN) mix-up that many have noticed. What I am hoping is that it will be slow, though it must speed up at the culmination.

As you may have known, I no longer attend meetings. I do receive the e-mail extracts from Maharaji’s speeches a couple of times a week, that anyone can receive by finding their Elan Vital (search for it) corresponding area-information, and I want to read them. I was getting the newest videos each month by special post. I’d still like them, but there was a mix-up when my credit-card changed, and the videos are not yet arranged for me.

Now, one of the things I resented most about this invasion of my life by my other 'aspects', is the fact that at meetings they would get in even to Knowledge reviews - control of matter is theirs, and there were too many incidents that showed me I had no right to impose them on premies really trying to concentrate, and they would follow me everywhere, clap while Maharaji spoke, transmit another language audibly through their head-sets so others could not hear Maharaji - stand on my toes - you name it.

So, in a very manifested way, I have been forced to retreat from all the belief-systems I used to hold, and I assure you it was not pleasant, but now I can see the point of all this invasion.

Denis, it’s our belief-systems that will cause us to bring into force the things we don’t want - and that once were not real, but now are.

When I got Knowledge, I realised the only thing I knew how to do was breathe. Since then I have been dissolving belief-systems, but still have a lot more to go. Still, I know that the only thing I do know is how to breathe. That clarity of just breathing is what Maharaji allowed me to know.

There is one video where He states that there will come a time when it will feel that we have crash-landed in the Amazonas, with nothing but what we ARE, and instead of reaching for food, we will be the food if .... In another video He states that we try to balance neither too much to the left nor to the right, then along comes the Master and gives us the 'densest rock' - it does not balance. It is the centre.

Do you realise that the Maharaji I know may never have heard of any of this ex-premie stuff? The problem is the confusion of realities that will indeed overlay each other, just as the earth is now overlaid with many systems of belief that make up our grid or aura of the earth. At some point those will all come together and then we shall spring out again to create ... what? It depends on our standard of belief-system, and the only ones that will not create anything, and therefore be freed from this abattoir of a universe itself, are the ones that allow it all to come together, to notice it all, and thus dissolve it.

Face it - dark upholds light, and when we allow that both merge, they go off in a puff of smoke. This universe works through anti-matter sustaining matter. Put them together and there is a void ...

When the 'rush' of it all comes in, the only place we will not fight it is in the centre, and it will all pass through us, giving us its Knowledge of all times as we go Down the Ages back to our Source and breach the womb of this universe.

It’s all coming together as a single Nut-state. Those who have belief-systems will struggle against the Dark and create another earth ... remember that it is our desire to feel that causes the feelers to grow and exist, and then causes to come into existence the object that we can feel .... Are you with me?

Denis - go to (The river of crazy wisdom) - it is an astounding site - go to Sabe’s Realm first and read all you can find there, especially 'The Coming Birth and Mass Ascension' and then 'Cores, Faces and Aspects'.

Knowing that all realities would close in, you can see how Maharaji always stayed out of trying to describe reality or Knowledge itself. They are now overlapping, and all kinds of issues are coming up, but believe me, if we have not done and been absolutely everything of dark and light up to these times, we will struggle and create physicality again instead of going to Freedom.

(I’m still ranting against the fact that some poor 'Me' had to live out all the dark that I refused, yet that had to exist or I could never have lived the light-side. But we came into this library to 'read all the books' and soon all the books of reality will really merge so we can see what we came for in the first place. I will not refuse the Me that was the murderess, that was the child-abuser, that tortured others to appease the Gods or just for plain fun.)

Though I hate to say it, the Wisdom starts in the dark of Satan, but should not be searched for, for it is a 'given' and the 'required to prove' is always the struggle to light, to Luzbel. They are the opposites of One Being, and neither can hold manifestation in existence without the other.

So I say 'Yes, take Jagdeo to court and make him face the music!' He should never have allowed that dark reality to be brought into presence when he had the gift of Knowledge of the breath. And in what reality will the court-case happen, if I now do not concentrate on that dark episode? This is not an allowance on my part, for we all know there are definitely dark doings in our present reality. Struggle against the Dark merely reinforces it ... so we do what we think is correct, and my correct is breath, which must undo my steps or push me forward - whatever I need, to understand.

Don’t forget http://www.riosabeloco.com/ - Sabe’s Realm especially. All this Knowledge is already in our cells.

Thanks again,
Love
Mum
p.s. If you want to read the simple extracts of Maharaji’s speeches that I get, mail to infoEV@cantv.net in Spanish, and stipulate that you’d like to receive the ongoing English extracts. He still lights up my life, though I have been through a few 'suspensions' as far as absorbing all His words - I finally see what He means, for me. He’s a friend, and not a God, but if He had not presented himself in my reality as a God-figure, I would not have been able to leave Catholicism ... I had a bit of difficulty with the fact that He was married, and so young - kind of like wanting God to have a beard, and then settling for just a moustache!!!! Huh! This really is a River of Crazy Wisdom!

As for the Breath - just grab it and run with it!

...
End of e-mail.

I'm going to add something here, for there is no way we will accept justification of a reality where our children have been abused, if we are parents.

I have found that forgiveness is not where it's at, for there is no forgiveness in a 'levelling' sense. The only way to live with treason is to know that somewhere, we have done the same. We can only look to ourselves as parents and discover why we allowed the reality to manifest, or why that child chose to allow us to see what we once were manifesting while we thought we were really connected to that which rearranges all atoms around us so we can continue in light. The rearrangement allows all that we sustain in belief to manifest, especially if we are really concentrating on its opposite.

This next part is even more difficult to swallow, but we have entered a universe that is in fact a slaughter-house where we must kill even to eat, and we should wake up to that fact first, for it seems that a soul in this universe will not sustain existence unless trauma awakens it. We must push against something in order even to walk, and the total picture brings so many tears that we can only turn to loving ourselves so much, just for the fact that we are truly trying to see why we came here.

The very beings that we most cherish, our children, our manifestations of part of our own beings that we wanted to study, become too many, and war through overcrowding always looms as the inevitable result. That is the ongoing story we live till we can see it.

I know now that I have not come to judge this universe, but to know it, and each of us is a true universe. In Margarita, Maharaji explained that there are some that will leave this world. I know that it depends only on me, if I can do that.

There is no saviour, but from something we must draw our substance, and I thank Maharaji for allowing me to gaze on his electronic blueprints as I concentrated on him, for the camera imprints its own image into the same wall it is photographing.

Ascension is a word that means more strife to me, for he who does not live out the physcical state can never know it in truth, and will be pushed down into it, eventually, as realitites again merge. On any plane in this universe there will be the dark beings, and the light beings, for there is no other way to manifest 'being' in a Source-universe. Source means food. I do not wish to be a being of either category on any density.

My thanks to those who wrote of the Jagdeo-abuses, for they have done a beautiful work by exposing that realities are merging, yet they have always been entering since I received Knowledge, and even before that, the only difference being that now, I notice.

A few weeks ago, a premie phoned to tell me Maharaji had read from a script at one meeting. That is something he never does to my knowledge, and has stated that fact. I immediately countered with 'It seems you have touched a reality where Maharaji is now cloned.'

Detachment has no meaning unless we have lived out total attachment. I could not be detached from family. I had to be forcibly rejected by all I was attached to, till I understood that Detachment was the one promise that was given to me in Knowledge.

Patricia.

I hope this helps.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 01:56:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Realities ... Jagdeo
Message:
Patricia,
I find your suggestion that the parents of abused children have somehow committed 'treason' in their own lives and therefore attracted the energy of abuse, to be totally repugnant and disgusting. Shame on you for perpetuating such nonsense!

Some people are just evil and BAD and it has nothing to do with anything we ourselves do. This is narcisistic claptrap. I hope you will learn to think clearly someday. I fear for your son to be getting such a letter from his mother. Oh my god!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:13:58 (GMT)
From: Pia Greenbum
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: So true, so beautiful
Message:
This is EXACTLY the kind of clear, spiritual message I need for my war against these amoebic morons. Please email it to me so I can add it to my website.

jai satchitanand

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:48:01 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Pia Greenbum
Subject: Hi Pea, pee, sorry, Pia
Message:
I have now the opportunity to tell you what I think about you. You are missing your (apparently, I have no proof) last days in this world giving him thanks for what you were born with, daaa, LIFE? Do you realize he doesn't give you anything and that he doesn't deserve credit for NOTHING but the chains with which he chained you?

BTW:What give you the right to call us ex-cult members names in your web site? Have you appologized in some place here?

Is your guru GOD?
Is your guru the LORD of hte Universe?
Is he the Savior of humanity?

No, he is a greedy bastard and a liar!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:16:07 (GMT)
From: The Questioning Angel
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Could someone please arrange
Message:
an irony implant for Silvia?

Or is it, like, Silvia is throwing a double irony whammy and I'm completely missing the point?

Anyone still grasping for a definition of irony only needs to watch the elevator scene in Reality Bites.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:47:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: Irony supplement are sorely needed -- yas n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:40:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: The Questioning Angel
Subject: See my post to you above, Angel - ESL.......... NT
Message:
j
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:19:55 (GMT)
From: Pea Greenbrain
Email: None
To: Pia Greenbum
Subject: So true, so beautiful - I knew you'd like it, sis
Message:
I'm just channelling one of other my ''aspects'' right now and it says that you WILL SUCCEED in destroying these godless heathens.

PatC pretending to be a pea brain.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:40:43 (GMT)
From: Moronic Amoeba
Email: None
To: Pea Greenbrain
Subject: she can't hear you she's absorbed us and now
Message:
she's beamed up to the mother ship.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:56:13 (GMT)
From: PatC channelling Cosmic
Email: None
To: Moronic Amoeba
Subject: Ectoplasm - that was the sucking sound - burp NT
Message:
l
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:51:32 (GMT)
From: Mold, slowly being sucked
Email: None
To: PatC channelling Cosmic
Subject: My God - she's an absorber from THE OTHER SIDE !NT
Message:
X
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:39:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Here's your problem in a 'nutshell', Patricia
Message:
When I got Knowledge, I realised the only thing I knew how to do was breathe. Since then I have been dissolving belief-systems, but still have a lot more to go. Still, I know that the only thing I do know is how to breathe. That clarity of just breathing is what Maharaji allowed me to know.

Poor girl, looks like you've completely fallen for this most pernicious aspect of Maharaji's false teachings. Listen, it is not at all true that the only thing you know how to do is breathe. It is equally false that you could or would ever want to 'dissolve' all your belief systems.

I knew a guy once who took some LSD. He'd recently gotten contact lenses and was told how they could get stuck on one's eye if they dried out. Anyway, that night one of his lenses DID get stuck like that and he spent hours in the bathroom trying to get it off. No matter how hard he tried to get in under the edge it was just clinging like crazy and he couldn't pry it free. Finally, in the middle of the night, he drove to the hospital and went to Emergency. Waited and waited ... eventually he saw a doctor who took one look and advised him that, in fact, there was no contact there. He'd been trying to pry off his cornea!

Beliefs are an inevitable property of the mind which is an inevitable property of an operating human brain. You can no more strip them away than this guy could his cornea. You might as well be trying to strip away your skin. Too bad Maharaji tricked us into thinking that therein lay 'the path'.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:30:59 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OH JIM -- That is so funny....Ha ahh, ahh, HAHAHA
Message:
Where do you come up with this stuff? So funny
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:11:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Patty Ann Johnson, PhD
Subject: Dinner is Served: It's dog eat dog At Johnson's
Message:
Abbatoir...
.
.
.
.
.

This next part is even more difficult to swallow, but we have entered a universe that is in fact a slaughter-house where we must kill even to eat, and we should wake up to that fact first, for it seems that a soul in this universe will not sustain existence unless trauma awakens it.
.
.
.
.
Try chewing twenty times on each side first, dear.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:44:57 (GMT)
From: SuchaBanana smOOthie
Email: None
To: geriatric gerrymanderji
Subject: hurry: git yer roasted carrot dogs,soyburgers! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:45:20 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Come again,Pat A. Johnston...
Message:
Pat-

I feel some sort of sincerity from your post, but to be honest, I could not understand about 90% of it.

Would you consider regrouping and re-thinking some of your thoughts/feelings and expressing them again?

I think you're trying to express something, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what it is!

La-ex

PS: One thing I would suggest: If you want to get to simplicity, and the 'magical knowledge of breathing', simply try some simplicity.
Maybe spend some time in nature, or with creatures that can't read scriptures, or think so much, like a dog or a cat...

I think you'd be better off staying away from the scriptures/concepts...

Best wishes...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:28:21 (GMT)
From: Patricia A. Johnston
Email: Circe@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Bye.
Message:
I broke my rule for Susan Haupt, for forums are always a mess when all who don't pay for phone-time on Internet just barge in and throw excrement, and most of them are adolescents in mind. I will sincerely reply to anyone that writes to me, using manners that I extend to all, but what's the point?

Convince me of your point, first by displaying your e-mail address, though I will only reply to personal e-mail and only when certain conditions are displayed.

I find no replies to my post that show any seeking, or finding, I merely point out that realities are merging - can you take them or not? Can you notice your feelings without judgement? To do it without 'feeling' does not count as learning unless you have already been pulling in those realities for some time, and accepting their existence.

In fact, I already know that all the replies, and the place of my post, are inaccessible = dead zones. My aspects are extremely 'powerful', they think, but only at interfering and keeping my information to themselves. The tell-tale sudden switching off of my Internet, and the pause to readjust, says all.

Perhaps I still believe those aspects can be turned around and see something more than belief-system rationality. However, they are almost stripped to the bone in devolution, and have no Logic to make their understanding worthwhile. Every few months I
foray again into trying to communicate with others. Control of the microchip is always displayed, and my information, very alive, reaches only dead zones.

So, why do I try? The morphogentic grid is made up of all our mass-mind systems. It matters nothing that I reach no individual for communication. It is enough that I write. Anyone that seeks can tap into what I have condensed as information - it's how reality works. In other words, it is enough that it has been expressed, not who expressed it or who reads it.

Forays are therefore my way of tapping into the belief-systems of those same aspects, to notice them, and to know that, somewhere, I am just as blinkered, for we are living out all those realities, somewhere.

Hi Aspects! Some day the vibes will hit your blood, and the proverbial shit will indeed hit the fan, but you will be on another world of your own making and probably in a gastropod state. Sorry, but I can only absorb you if you have feelings. You are on your own, though you don't believe it. You still believe you have a saviour, but only because you have been told that.

If there is anything to be gleaned from my posting, for my part, it is this: All's well that ends.

So, Mmmmwwaaawww - share that amongst you! You are fooling no-one and can now forget the forum. I'm off, as usual.

Patricia.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:11:20 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Kewl sheeeeit! My Dead Zone just woke up!
Message:
got the same turgid feeling as when I see THIS!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:38:04 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: This is a joke - eh?.....**BEST of FORUM**
Message:
Shit, Lady...If you're not comic relief, what is?

Thanks,,,laughter is sooooo good for the soul.

I couldn't even your posts, but I'm busted up anyways. DANG - You are good!

- Touche

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:58:09 (GMT)
From: MissPrint
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: should read **BEST LAUGH on FORUM** /nt
Message:
zzz
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:13:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Patricia's email address is wrong
Message:
Just tried to email Patricia, but her email addess doesn't exist. Do you think she/he was playing games here?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:22:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Patricia's email address is wrong - yes it's fake
Message:
Yes, I do. It was too nutty of a post to be serious or else she needs new fillings because she's picking up static from Mars.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:50:06 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: psycho
Message:
She needs some serious help if it was 'for real'
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:11:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: psycho or a budding writer for SNL
Message:
Got your email. Nice pics. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:21:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: 99 percent of us don't believe in saviours
Message:
... including la-ex, who you responded to. That's the whole point. You've got it all mixed up, I think, but I respect you for trying.

If you are a premie, you're the one with the saviour issue.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:53:47 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Patricia.. Listen. The New Age is like the Dark
Message:
Ages...or the Middle Ages... REALLY...
I think you should give some thought to what it was like to live in a time when belief systems did not have to pass ANY test of rationality.
On the other hand, why am I paying to be on the net to talk to you... you have probably returned to the mother ship by now.
(Patricia: Hi Aspects! Some day the vibes will hit your blood, and the proverbial shit will indeed hit the fan, but you will be on another world of your own making and probably in a gastropod state. Sorry, but I can only absorb you if you have feelings. )
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:24:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Good riddance, newage bubble girl!
Message:
Your so lost in newage confusion it probably doesn't matter what anyone says here. But, if you're still reading, know this: judgement is as inevitable and necessary a part of human existence as is having beliefs. We all judge and we all have beliefs. Unfortunately for you, you're stuck in some sort of new age fantasy where you can't call a spade a spade and deal with matters directly. But as for beliefs, what the hell you think THIS is?:

The morphogentic grid is made up of all our mass-mind systems.

or:

Can you notice your feelings without judgement? To do it without 'feeling' does not count as learning unless you have already been pulling in those realities for some time, and accepting their existence.

or:

Some day the vibes will hit your blood, and the proverbial shit will indeed hit the fan, but you will be on another world of your own making and probably in a gastropod state.

You're stinking of hypocrisy but have lost your sense of smell. Very, very newage. Too bad.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:15:38 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Patricia....
Message:
Most of us have tried to give serious feedback. I must say you are a little hard to understand. I do think it is a good thing for you to spend more time in nature and with some nice animals.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:20:22 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Realities ... Jagdeo
Message:
Thank you for caring about this Patricia. A lot of your post I can't really understand, but I am glad you are offering support about Jagdeo.

thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:43:39 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Realities ... Jagdeo
Message:
Dear Patricia,

thank you for expressing a concern about the Jagdeo issue.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:55:15 (GMT)
From: nagual rain
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Realities ... Jagdeo
Message:
thanks for this very refreshing post....
actually i start to believe it's waste of time posting here,
when people are not interested in different realities they
are bound down to what they perceive as reality and their
reality is that there is nothing else than this physical
universe and that every teacher is a fraud....but what also
bugs me is that maharaji is on this non-spritual non-religion
trip now, so he actually is on the same level as those exes..
looks like they both have bad karma..maybe it's time for another
earthquake to tell the earthlings they are CREATURES still..
and there are LORDS who have created them..they have not fallen
out of the void..maybe i should include myself also..WE are all
creatures of a higher intelligence and as long as we think we
are the masters on this planet, the masters will teach us a
different story..make it or break it..spirit will guide you you,
prempal , the exes and nagual rain alike, regards
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:05:29 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: nagual rain
Subject: You're inventing situations
Message:
Nagger: here (people's reality) is that there is nothing else than this physical universe and that every teacher is a fraud...

I think you will find there is wide disagreement among posters here on the first point you make. Even a little sincere effort on your part would have show you that posters here have various philosophies. To name a few... objectivist materialism; buddhism; pantheism; and diverse sorts of theism.

As for the second (every teacher is a fraud) you just made it up. I guess your naughty MrMind played a little joke on you just to make the rest of us laugh, right?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:15:28 (GMT)
From: mark fury
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: drink koolaid,believe in jesus,eat cheerios
Message:
and u r talkin out uranus.by the way,the material plane called, it seems your reality check bouncedmaybe you should get your crown chakra out of your ass and get a hobby or godesss forbid a real job ! besides which GUMBY IS OUR TRUE LORD AND MASTER !u must focus your cheese asshopper when u can take pebble from hand u can leave the temple
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:33:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: choking on new age psychobabble from other people
Message:
you and sandy together could found the Church of Confusion From Trying To Live As Other People Tell You You Should.

I was where you are now, about ten years back. I finally snapped, hit the limit and kicked it all out of me. I am what I am. It works. reading your letter is torture. Knowing how far you are reaching, for something that's already yours without needing to try, is ludicrous.

Throw away the books and the tapes and the seminars and the videos. Quit listening to people and quit parroting their whacked theories.

Go get out in nature alone and rid yourself of all of it. You're you. Be normal. Be ordinary. Stop trying to be anything and just go back to being what you are. It doesnt take thinking or trying. Just do it.

you poor thing. snap out of it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:16:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Brilliant, janet
Message:
I know that Patricia means well, and I respect her from the bottom of my heart for that, but like Pat said, the post is scary. I found Michele Deradune scary too, although I really got to be fond of her after a while. But she never ceased to scare me.

This scares me too. On one hand, I hope her post is a joke, although it would be insulting to Abi and Susan if it were. On the other hand, if this is what she really thinks, I'd need a machete to get through the jungle of her mind.

I think you pegged it, janet. You saw a light in the jungle.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 10:51:49 (GMT)
From: pemieji+1
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: choking on new age psychobabble from other people
Message:
if you are the same janet that threatened to break m's bones one by one earlier on, so that he could feel the pain....then you should get help before you snap again....you need to get to a rainbow gathering and heal....you are not wise so stop handing out advice...get help....the current psychobabble is you.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:32:07 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: pemieji+1
Subject: Wot no spam tonite?
Message:
I guess you're trying a different tack, seeing as the spam and email to the FAs didn't bring you the attention you think you deserve.

What, coffee keeping you awake? They must make it strong there;)

FA

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:30:23 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer
Email: None
To: pemieji+1
Subject: And who are you? Who asked your opinion?
Message:
loser!

Brake free: YOUR GURU LIED TO YOU!

He tells you you are free but you are not!

I hear your chains in your words.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:50:10 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: pemieji minus 1
Subject: Why stop at the limbs? --- Flake off, loser---nt
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:51:47 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: pemieji+1
Subject: Psychobabbler!! You didn't answer me
Message:
premijiplus1: you guys are being used by the press which doesn't understand the first thing about enlightenment....but is a master-manipulator....

JohnT: you premies are being used by Rawat who doesn't understand the first thing about enlightenment....but who is a master-manipulator...

And you accuse others of psychobabble? Funny guy!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:53:52 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Hi JohnT -- (Personal message OT)
Message:
JohnT, please email me. I'm going to grab a bite to eat before class and will only be here another 15 min.
stars@uvic.ca
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:56:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Patricia says: Wisdom starts in the dark of Satan
Message:
Either this is Thelma pretending to be a premie in order to show just how sick MANY of them are or this is really one sick sick fucked up soul.

Well, we all know it isn't Thelma. If this is you Jim or Nigel or JohnT or Suchabana or Janet pretending to be an insane premie then please cut it out. It isn't funny. I know too many PWKs teetering on the edge of this sort of insanity.

There've been quite a few here too - Hanuman/Sumo Boy, Bjork or whatever, Cerise (the bubblegum chewing satanist teenager.) People like this are for real so please guys don't make satirical pretend premie posts. Leave that to the real ones.

Geezus HH! What if it is a real live dim bulb! You've just pissed on your filament, Patricia, and put it plum out!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:46:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Er, Pat
Message:
PatC: If this is you Jim or Nigel or JohnT or Suchabana or Janet pretending to be an insane premie then please cut it out. It isn't funny. I know too many PWKs teetering on the edge of this sort of insanity.

I can read Jim (he makes me laugh); and Nigel (he's just soo COOOL); and JohnT (I'm narcisistic); Such (love his humanity and idealism); and Janet (anger so well expressed).

But, Pat I can't read Patricia A. Johnson. And you think I could write it...

Sheesh.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:36:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John, I thought maybe you used a NewAge-olizer
Message:
But maybe P Johnson simply put a tampon commercial through the New Age-olizer and her post was the result.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 09:12:40 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Funny you should mention that.
Message:
I was sketching out on my head how to write such a program. I don't think it would be tooo difficult. Unpleasant, perhaps, but not too bad technically.

D'you think you could tell the difference between the ravings of such a program and the more teetering PWKs? We did have one chakra onanist here (went under the name of shroomananda - until the silly arse outed himself...) who *failed* that 'Turing Test'.

It was a great shame what happened to Alan Turing. Such a loss caused only by people's hateful prejudices.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:59:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: NewAge-olizer may work for non-premies but
Message:
These ''on the edge'' premies have spritual Tourette's Syndrome and no computer program can accurately mimic that.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:41:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Very funny (nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:46:08 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: and arti says medit. begins in the form of our
Message:
master'

what's a girl to do?? who do you believe, these days?
*sigh*
gossip is so upsetting, isn't it, thelma? Ya wanna go shopping and just forget all this nonsense?. It makes my head hurt. I know this great little shoe store...and afterwards, I know where we can get the most INTENSE chocolate desserts....
c'mon-- I'll drive!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:51:44 (GMT)
From: PatC channelling Thelma
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I wish to god you had written Patricia's post
Message:
as a spoof!

Yes, dahling, let's buy some shoes. Don't she just give you the screaming meemies? Who does she thinks she be?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:54:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Maharaji's poison
Message:
So this is what it means to be a premie. No wonder I left in 1983. The last bit about detatchment is ridiculous. Mind you, so is the rest of it. Is this the sort of stuff that Maharaji teaches after 30 years?

But I can also speak my own new age speak:

If one lives on this physical plane and purports to be detached from it then the result is that one becomes attached to a mind numbing, ridiculous and poisonous new age philosophy which can cause other people (including one's family) to be immediately detatched from you and run a mile.

Maybe that was the reason this person's family rejected them. So once again, Maharaji's poisonous philosophy prevents yet another person from simply enjoying a normal existence and being with their nearest and dearest.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:18:51 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: Welcome to the Twilight Zone
Message:
Just two questions:

Why do you capitalize the *H* in He, His etc referring to maharaji?

Do you have any more of whatever it is you're smoking?

Hope you don't have to drive or operate machinery for the next few hours luv:)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:34:34 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I'll take question 2) again Baz
Message:
he he, yes, I was wondering the same thing. I'm sitting here zonked already and while reading Patricia's post I totally tripped out, I couldn't grok her, couldn't tell if it was new age shyte, god talking, a lovely wise woman, a spiritual giant, a mad woman, a devout Christian, a dumb premie, a totally realised premie, a confirmed ex-premie, who what where? She had me on the major roller coaster there, but I think she landed the craft safe back at base and we finally climbed wearily out. I feel she is very sincere about what ever it is she's trying to say. So it's a good read, especially stoned because then the zany bits make perfect cosmic sense. If only dear Janet would jetison some anger, she'd probably come up with stuff as confronting and honest as this, she definitely has the talent, but is a little bit uncomfortable a read lately. (hug>> Janet!)
Still, I guess this isn't the local library...we read here at our own risk, maybe that's the thrill.
Sandy, I tremendously enjoyed you post above called 'new age' which was informative and fascinating, thanks.
Marolyn K
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:05:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Just curious ......
Message:
Sandy, I tremendously enjoyed you post above called 'new age' which was informative and fascinating, thanks.

What exactly did you learn?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:15:41 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mainly this...
Message:
The paragraph before it intrigued me, so I was concentrating properly by the time I got to...

'I recently did a video shoot in NYC for a very large investment firm. The assembled companies represented were involved in global energy creation and distribution, big stuff, Ann Rand novel stuff. Companies like GE, Ingersoll Rand, Siemens... You would have smiled at the fact that so many of the largest companies on earth who deal in energy are so into hydrogen fuel cells, wind and solar farms, heat collectors etc...
As I stood there in the back of the hall, watching all this through my trusty Ikegami viewfinder, I realized I was watching the physical manifestation of a Whole Earth Catalog that I read while in college some 30 years ago. These big guys let the hippies and the wackos and the 'new agers' do all the testing and trial and error stuff over the last few decades, then jumped into it more recently when the politics and the money and the public atmosphere (and the actual earth atmosphere) was at an almost breaking point. Now it's accepted and will become the norm'.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:45:11 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: I only hope that's true (OT)
Message:
And not just some 'window dressing' to keep them in compliance with some federal regulation or other. I've observed the government and political process, especially here in the US and in my home state, enough to be a semi-hopeful cynic. Hopeful that capitalists will find it profitable to do what is actually the right thing for society. Because if they can't make money on it, if they are not checkmated, they will only look at the bottom line--profits for their shareholders.

But of course, these companies can see that, on a global level, we will have to find alternative energy sources. So how do they come in?

These companies would rather sell you oil and gas, which are sources of energy that they can charge for, or, in the alternative, sell their technologies and products to big companies that charge for the energy produced. If solar power continues to get more sophisticated, put the panels on the roof and say bye-bye to anyone but the company that repairs the panels or will sell you new ones.

So of course, the capitalists have to get into the solar and wind energy production and technology, in order to try to steer the funding, research and technology toward -- something they can control and sell. So that no one is making affordable panels that you can put on your roof and say bye-bye, for example. GE? Forget it baby. There's no hint of altruism there.

--love, f (only a flowerchild when it comes to actually loving flowers)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:10:36 (GMT)
From: Excuse me, due back
Email: None
To: Patricia A. Johnston
Subject: on planet Earth nt
Message:
z
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