Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 06:28:03 (GMT)
From: Jun 11, 2001 To: Jun 20, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Susan -:- seperated at birth.... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:02:59 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- That 'Separated-At-Birth' is amazing! NT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:57:22 (GMT)

Jim -:- Further letter to Pia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:34:09 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Brilliant logic NT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:05:46 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Wow Jim, This is a great post !!! a best of forum -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:23:17 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- You missed a comma in your fourth paragraph, Jim -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:02:18 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** Patrick!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC The Fat Fag -:- No, no, Jim - yours is ***BEST OF FORUM*** NT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:08:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- We need a ***BEST OF FORUM***alizer (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- This is a ***MUST READ***, Jim -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Too funny. OK, let's stop now (heads on desks) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, you need your own webpage ***Jim*** -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:36:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Jim, you need your own webpage--theres an idea -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:15:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And here's my advice to YOU, Janet -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:15:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- ...and so do you, Janet, and I'm serious. NT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:19:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Those pics suck! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:43:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, that moonshot! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:47:28 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- awesome post Jim!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- And a big ***BEST OF FORUM*** to you, Susan! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:23:09 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Further Comment About Pia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- I like that music wrong lyric site -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 02:23:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Here's One For Marianne -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:28:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I read that, Steve -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 02:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I agree Marianne, those lyrics make me cringe -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:54:43 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- The tone sounds pretty good to me. (nt) :-) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:45:18 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Gosh, I don't know what to say. Like, really? /nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:48:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Awwh shucks Jim - can't take a compliment ?(nt) :) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:08:27 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- 'And It Is Divine' now updated -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:31:36 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Personal (OT) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:52:04 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Learning the hardest lesson -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:35:02 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- And please also visit -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Thanks for the Tour -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:17:08 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- *** For those who keep asking for links *** -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:58:31 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Perhaps we could have some training... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:07:38 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Link suggestions -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- No no no -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Need EV is a church link -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Aw... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:04:47 (GMT)

JHB -:- It-aint-so aint! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:49:31 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- It-aint-so sorta is -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Thanks Brian, this works (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:21:48 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Try going to it another way -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:03:44 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- I did - did you? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ kev -:- Yes, just been there :NT -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:18:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- you may have routing problems JHB -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Must be those Routing Vegetables (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:57:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Don't you mean Rutting Vegetables? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Excuse me but I am no longer a vegetable -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:00:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Findhorn OT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:59:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Think it does (still exist) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 05:48:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- so did they have gigantic cabbages? OT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- so did they have gigantic cabbages? OT -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- OK found a link to Findhorn -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:36:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, I have to go and chop vegetables -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:10:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Don't you mean Rutting 'Aspects'? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:50:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Rawat counts the premies' ''Aspects'' -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:12:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- You meant 'angels' not 'angles', right? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Steve, a lot of PWKs believe in angles -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I'm trying to have fun, but it's hard -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know you've had hard time, Steve -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- It-aint-so aint! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- I did - did you? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:00:31 (GMT)

Helen -:- detective meets a cult member -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:58:19 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- detective meets a cult member -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Hi Selene -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- most likely me but I usually carry ... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:22:55 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- detective meets a cult member -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- found it on my bookshelf but... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- found it on my bookshelf but... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:49:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- running /chaining writing -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:49:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- running /chaining writing -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- if you can't find it i'll send it to ya -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:49:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- if you can't find it i'll send it to ya -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:12:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- oh and ps the acknowledgement -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:28:54 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- detective meets a cult member -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:08:57 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- detective meets a cult member -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:05:25 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- New photos appear on it-aint-so.org! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:56:44 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Looks like a teenagers bedroom wall.nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:19:35 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Old photos, very cute - so why no old words? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:42:12 (GMT)
__ kev -:- New photos appear on it-aint-so.org! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:06:00 (GMT)
__ G -:- What? No malas? Are they ashamed of their Lord? nt -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:46:16 (GMT)

janet -:- site on web-classactionsuit.com -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:51:13 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- site on web-classactionsuit.com -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- you need a lawyer and a case -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- you need a lawyer and a case -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:07:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't bother -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:12:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Don't bother -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:29:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- This is, of course, a good question -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:07:19 (GMT)
__ cq -:- site on web-classactionsuit.com -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:34:24 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Love you janet, but -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Fransesca! GO, GO JANET! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:37:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Silvia, best typo of week: ''furipous ex-premies!' -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:31:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ FURIPOUS ex-premie Silvia -:- I shouldn't post -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:37:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Get a grip, Silvia -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- YOU're out of control and many know it. nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:01:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Lawsuits -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks once again -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 04:04:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thank you Marianne! Great post (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Lawsuits - spoken like a trooper, Marianne -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Silvia, there is righteous anger ... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:03:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- anger versus a valid case ... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:54:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks Francesca and Tim - and a lawsuit story -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And thanks for your story -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:18:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for that -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:03:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Precisely Tim and Fran -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:27:24 (GMT)

Jim -:- Re-post of Nigel's post to Janet about my post -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:50:28 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- MY old post re-posted for reference -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:51:10 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- this was not the post I was criticizing. -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:59:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- ok let me explain why this one bugged me: -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:21:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What the fuck????? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:04:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- BTW, did I tell you to fuck off, yet? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Janet, but it was indeed this post -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- In fact, here's what you said -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:26:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Actually Janet I thought your post to Jim silly -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve M -:- thanks Pat- just what I was about to say nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey can I change that? ***BEST OF FORUM***, Pat -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:02:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ***SILLIEST OF FORUM*** DING DING DING Round ??? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:40:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***SILLIEST OF FORUM*** DING DING DING Round ??? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- ***Raunchiest Of Forum - Jim/Janet Kissing???***nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:07:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- ***BEST OF FORUM***, yes - embarassing, Jim. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:05:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is that ***BEST OF FORUM*** mine or yours? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:09:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC the Fat Fag -:- No, no, it was YOURS. It's bigger than mine -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:07:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- ***Worst Of Forum*** nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Would that it were just a joke, Pat -- sigh (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:50:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Some of the best jokes are told by -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- OK Jim, whether or nor Janet did 'diss' you - -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:42:21 (GMT)

it-IS-so -:- update -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:07:20 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Nigel Longhurst, Liverpool. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Moldy Rap is my artist's persona (nt)! -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:15:05 (GMT)
__ salam -:- what's this riot all about -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- am back -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:28:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Salam, just so you know -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Wooops -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Proof reader vs fact checker -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Proof reader vs fact checker -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Salam, I already have two full-time jobs! -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:03:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- But this is 'Participation' my dear -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:19:48 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- update -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:24:42 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Hey, what about me? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:44:02 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I'll help if I can -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:31:42 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Count me in! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:23:43 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- My full name is Francesca Reitano -- go for it n/t -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:04:54 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- My full name is Patrick Delano Conlon aka Thelma -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:58:15 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Salam....Please Add My Name!!!! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:44:11 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Salam...that's Cynthia J. Gracie.... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:46:38 (GMT)
__ Silvia Sommer- Michigan- -:- Gret Salam!! -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:39:34 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Brilliant, Salam. Use my full name, please -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:13:42 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- update -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:51:36 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- update -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:46:42 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- update -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:18:54 (GMT)

cq -:- dwindling audiences for ... you know who -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:06:43 (GMT)
__ Simon Satsang -:- Don't you people realise -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- You JOKING??? - that's what they said in '73 -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:31:44 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Not just 'unique visitors' now it's 'unique events -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- unique events -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)
__ salam -:- dwindling audiences for ... you know who -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:13:52 (GMT)

PatC -:- Why did some of us stick with M and K so long? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- post darshan blues -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- post darshan blues - ouch -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:02:25 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Invisible Ghost = Omnipresent Maharaji -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:25:06 (GMT)
__ Steve M -:- WOW Pat ! -yes yes yes - thanks nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:14:42 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM** turn this into your Journey n/t -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:44:32 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:17:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- A lot of us have got a book about this inside us -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:18:18 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Why did some of us stick with M and K so long? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Wow, you were sure able to do ... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:06:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- do you remember... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I wish I could say that ignorance kept me in cult -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- ignorance is consciousness of bliss, -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:41:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yeah the spiritual arrogance -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:57 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Wonderful, Pat...***A MUST READ*** -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:38:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve M -:- Cynth - I loved this bit - me too -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:21:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Pray means to ask for help so why not ask? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pray means to ask for help so why not ask? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know you'll survive, Cynthia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I know you'll survive, Cynthia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:45:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Good for you - go for it ............. OT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:06:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- prayer -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:27:32 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:02:59 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: seperated at birth....
Message:
seperated at birth?

or maybe this one???

both like to have LOTS of stuff, avoid the common people, and surround the themselves with sycophants. Also both germ phobic and like to dress up in sequins

well this one of course

did people stare at his horse's ass?


see people adoring this horse's ass'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:57:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: That 'Separated-At-Birth' is amazing! NT
Message:
ggggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:34:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Further letter to Pia
Message:
Took another look at Pia's site and decided to comment further. A few points that needed to be made, a few I felt like reiterating. The tone's all mine. If you don't like it, write your own:

My name is Pia Grünbaum.

No it's not!

Just kidding, Pia, but really, girl, when do we get to actually talk with you about some of this shit you're saying? Never? Is that your idea of a principled response?

I have decided to host this web site because Maharaji and the people who enjoy his Knowledge are being cynically attacked by a hate group. Their stated intent is to defame Maharaji and destroy the potential benefits of his work.

Hey, talk about defamatory! You've got to be careful here, Pia. Where have you seen any ex-premies declare their 'stated intent' to defame Maharaji? Defamation implies spreading lies. What ex has ever said that he or she intends to spread lies about Maharaji? None I'm aware of. The truth, my dear, is damning enough. Likewise, what's with this 'cynical' or 'hate group'? Do you think that anyone who leaves Maharaji is cynical? And if they challenge him rather than quietly walk away does that make them cynical? And if they demand answers and some accountability from the man they once literally worshipped as their Lord and Saviour does that make them a 'hate group'?

And even if some, like myself, hate Maharaji, does that mean we collectively form a 'hate group'? That term, as I undersatnd it, is all about prejudice. Prejudice, in turn, is all about unfounded, unjustified dislike. Are you denying that former followers of a guru may have ample justification for hating him? Would you say the same, for example, about a group of ex-moonies? That they're just another 'hate group'? Your language is inflammatory and innacurate, Pia. It's you, I'm afraid, who's therefore defamatory.

This small group uses the Internet to put forth a gross misrepresentation of a person whose efforts are deeply valued by hundreds of thousands of people globally, including myself.

Why won't you debate the facts, then, if you're so sure we're blowing smoke? 'Gross misrepresentation'? Let's talk about it. For example, do you think it's a gross misrepresentation that Maharaji once claimed to be God? Yes? No? See, EV categorically denies this fact. How about you? Care to tell me how else one could possibly interpret this:

It's been said that Guru Maharaj Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and helps the world.

I have known Maharaji most of my life. I love and respect him, and I will no longer watch in silence while people publicly ridicule and threaten both him and others who support his work.

How well do you know him? Is he faithful to his wife? How about his mistress, Monica, is he faithful to her? Does he drink? How much? How often? Alone or with whom? Drugs?

Point is, Pia, that unless you know the answers to these questions, you might not really know the man anywhere nearly as well as you'd like to believe. Honestly, say Maharaji does indeed have a long-time mistress and an even longer history of cheating on his wife. Wouldn't that be something someone who claims to know him should be aware of? Or is knowing Maharaji different than knowing other people? How much do you really know, Pia? Are you brave enough to ask yourself that question?

But as for threats, the only threats I'm aware of are those to confront him with his own history and thus prevent new people from being hoodwinked. Is that bad? Why?

I believe that many who feel as I do have put up with this group for a long time to avoid engaging in its dirt or dignifying groundless allegations with serious response. But enough is enough. In fact, Maharaji has been taking the heat for actions of people who are not taking responsibility for their own choices.

Here's where you're in trouble, ideologically, I mean. As I pointed out to you the other day, Maharaji's advice is to ignore critics. You're doing the opposite. And, of course, because this is all so confusing for you, you're forced to a) respond to our 'groundless allegations' in a very tentative, incomplete way and b) avoid clearly admitting that you are indeed doing exactly what Maharaji, publically at least, says not to. Problem, isn't it?

'I do not issue this call lightly'

This is a call for people who know Maharaji and who practice Knowledge to join me in speaking out to set the record straight and show how the picture being painted by those who call themselves 'ex-premies' is both false and irresponsible.

So far, you'll agree, you haven't done anything but plaster another coat of whitewash on a crumbling wall. If this is all you've got, Pia, why bother? EV's already done as much in its fraudulent FAQs. What do you think you add by simply reiterating the same banalities, half-truths and outright lies? If you're preaching to the converted, you have to recognize that all you're doing is drawing needless attention to the ex-premies. If you're preaching to us, you're going to have to actually engage in a little discussion. Flat-earthers will argue their positions. Creationists will as well. Those who don't look weak and you know it.

I ask all contributors to this site to take personal responsibility for their own choices and any part they have had in fostering any misconceptions.

What if that 'personal responisibity' is something they want to talk about? Maybe people, yes, even premies, want to discuss these matters. Wouldn't you like to facilitate some better understanding in that way? And how else can you clear up any 'foster[ed] misconceptions' if you can't discuss them? Can you see what a tight leash you're on? I can.

We ask the exes to do the same - especially those who were in positions of responsibility within the organization. I do not issue this call lightly, but out of the deepest sense of personal indignation and seriousness of purpose.

Fine, so you're actually inviting exes to talk with you too. So why won't you publish anything we say? Pia? This is looking just a l i t t l e absurd, you know. If this was a young Pia's recess schoolyard game, the teachers would be over in no time saying 'Sorry, Pia, but you can't play that way.' You can't invite poeple to comment and then stonewall them. That's just being silly.

Thank You - Pia Grünbaum

Having been diagnosed with terminal cancer, I am keenly aware of the preciousness of whatever time remains for me, and I know that doing what I am doing now is a most worthy use of my time.
I hope you will consider it worthy of yours. I ask for the help of those of you who may be more knowledgeable, articulate, or energetic than myself to contribute to this effort.

What, if anything, does EV have to do with your site? Has Maharaji endorsed or condoned it, directly or otherwise? You're giving the impression that you're doing this entirely on your own with no official imprimatur, as it were. Are you being honest? There are reasons to be skeptical. So, what's the truth of the matter? Pia and a few friends or something more?

Submissions, Anonymity and Independence

I invite you to submit postings for this site if you value the gift of Knowledge, are willing to take individual responsibility for what you say, and want to contribute to this site's purpose. Those postings will be chosen for publication that are of most interest to the readers and in line with the purpose of this site. I am well aware of the ex-premie tactics of threat, flaming, and various other forms of public abuse directed towards those who oppose them. It is a fact that some exes have publicly threatened to retaliate against those who oppose them by unlawfully contacting their clients and colleagues with lies and false rumors.

No, Pia, it's a fact that some ex's have, at times, threatened to contact their colleagues and such and tell them about Maharaji. Jonathan Cainer's one such 'target', if you will. Like you, Jonathan started a pro-Maharaji website with a couple of his friends -- or so he says. When the word came out that Jonathan was a premie he lied his face off to protect his job and reputation as ... here's the punchline, an astrologer of all things! Anyway, the point is, even then no one spread any lies or 'false rumours' about him. Can you think of any? What were they? That he was a member of a cult started by the now-middle-aged Lord of the Universe, Saviour of Mankind? What part of that is untrue? Care to discuss this?

Whereas I would appreciate the use of your name with your writing, if, for any reason, you would like to omit your name from your posting, you may do so. I launch this site as an individual, at my own expense, and not as a representative or agent of any organization or other person than myself. I am committed to protecting its independence as well as the anonymity of those who request it.

Pia G.

Again, how independent are you? Have you sought out or received any support, consent or advice from EV or Maharaji, either directly or indirectly? Big secret, huh? Why?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:05:46 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brilliant logic NT
Message:
X
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:23:17 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wow Jim, This is a great post !!! a best of forum
Message:
You can cut to the chase faster and deeper than anyone.

Watch Pia run from this one, good work Jim, I really am in awe of how you can turn the tables on these idiots with such ease , or so it seems. Thanks for doing it

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:02:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You missed a comma in your fourth paragraph, Jim
Message:
Even if Pia doesn't read it, your letter is helping to clarify the objections of us less articulate exes. Nice work.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:06:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** Patrick!!! (nt)
Message:
fffff
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:08:30 (GMT)
From: PatC The Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, no, Jim - yours is ***BEST OF FORUM*** NT
Message:
h
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:10:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC The Fat Fag
Subject: We need a ***BEST OF FORUM***alizer (nt)
Message:
ggggg
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:13:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is a ***MUST READ***, Jim
Message:
Funny, I was just thinking of pornolizing your latest epistle to Pia but I heard customers coming in and have to go. Have fun.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:18:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Too funny. OK, let's stop now (heads on desks)
Message:
nap time.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:36:55 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you need your own webpage ***Jim***
Message:
Love you, man!

And I can contribute pictures of you at the Kenmore Airport.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:15:22 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Jim, you need your own webpage--theres an idea
Message:
collect all your postings onto one site for reference and contemplation by whoever finds them provoking.
I like the idea.
again--no hostility at all to you Jim.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:15:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: And here's my advice to YOU, Janet
Message:
Quit giving me advice. I've had my fill, thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:19:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: ...and so do you, Janet, and I'm serious. NT
Message:
l
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:43:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Those pics suck!
Message:
Roger,

What's with you and those pictures? I did have my clothes on, if I recall. The moonshot, Rog, look again. That's not me.

How're you doing anyway? Thousand Oaks all it's cracked up to be? I hear it's not far from the Playboy Mansion. Woo woo!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:47:28 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, that moonshot!
Message:
Jim, it really is all about pictures when you're just a little guy who is sincerely trying to do the SS&M and being celibate and all. It's not like HE asks much of us. Maybe you should give it a try and then you might understand Pia & Friends a little better.

And, Jim, HE is just our friend, a teacher, a masterful teacher. Why all the hate? When I get the 'all clear' from Him to come out from under this sheet I'll consider the way of the flesh, but not a moment sooner.

And just yesterday I showed some folks that moonshot photo. They loved it!

Thousand Oaks is really nice. It feels like it's really getting off the ground again. I'm going to videos again and trying to do a little service whenever I can. It's really beautiful being alive, you know.

JSCA Everybody!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:58:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: awesome post Jim!!!!
Message:
should be on Salams site...well, it should be on Pia's what the critics say page.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:23:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: And a big ***BEST OF FORUM*** to you, Susan!
Message:
I missed you in San Francisco. Or did you miss me there? We stood each other up, didn't we? Oh well. Maybe in 2011 if everyone's into it.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:52:27 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Further Comment About Pia
Message:
When I first saw her site, I thought the graphics at least were good, but I just found a site that looks ripped off from.

Site Just Come Across

Pia's Site - Warning - Back Button Doesn't Work From Here

At least she didn't use that green that Haharaji and his followers seem to like.

By the way, is it not strange that Haharaji's site has hardly been updated at all since it's inception.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 02:23:45 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I like that music wrong lyric site
Message:
it reminds me of my old favourite by Kenny Rogers:

'Four hundred children and a croc in the field'.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 11:28:47 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Here's One For Marianne
Message:
From the song parody section of that site.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 02:07:41 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I read that, Steve
Message:
I am not sure how to react to the spoofed lyrics. One of my friends was one of Tim McVeigh's lawyers. The whole case is a huge tragedy, especially the killings of all the little children.

It's a case I really don't want to talk about. It makes me very sad. I find it hard to imagine the effect being involved in it must have had on everyone who has been touched by it.

I was glad to see that the Europeans protested the execution as Bush has been travelling there.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 17:54:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I agree Marianne, those lyrics make me cringe
Message:
I saw those lyrics and cringed. I, the big cynic, have some things I just can't laugh about -- in the sense that turning them into a joke belittles the tragedy, the loss, the emotions.

I told a co-worker about David Winer's suicide in Vancouver and I don't know what she was on about. Maybe it was the end of a hard day. She started laughing, as if it was funny that following a guru would drive you crazy. I called her on it and told her that David had been my friend. A person like her or I that for a fatal period of time took everything a little too seriously. She had to agree that she had probably 'laughed, lest she weep.' I only hope that's a 'mirror' to me that I should also, in my need for mirth and lightheartedness in my life, not turn real emotions and real people into cartoon characters in order to shut out the (sometimes) painful message.
love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:45:18 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: The tone sounds pretty good to me. (nt) :-)
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:48:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Gosh, I don't know what to say. Like, really? /nt
Message:
gggggggg
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:08:27 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Awwh shucks Jim - can't take a compliment ?(nt) :)
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:31:36 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'And It Is Divine' now updated
Message:
For lovers of divine art, I have now updated this site.

Please go to And It Is Divine to see the latest works.

I am a little troubled by the last pic and perhaps someone could elaborate. The program is clearly almost empty. SO empty that I'm wondering if the photo was taken before people came into the program. The pic is hard to make out but is that a figure standing by Maharaji's throne? A security person perhaps?

Or is it Maharaji and is that really all of his audience?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:52:04 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Personal (OT)
Message:
Sir Dave,

I want to apologize for a pissing contest I engaged with you regarding Michele's satsangy responses. I am new to the EPO and thought you were a premie arguing for the right to post personal 'see me, Maharaji' stuff.

My sincere apologies...I will attempt to read, think, breathe, and then respond to threads from now on.

Deborah Rose

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:35:02 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Learning the hardest lesson
Message:
No need to apologise, it was clear that you'd got me wrong. I do think that people should be able to post whatever they like here though, providing they aren't just attacking other people, of course.

I think there's more happening than meets the eye when people wax lyrical about Maharaji. You see, unfortunately for many people, their relationship with Maharaji is an illusion and yet it has become the bedrock of their life. They think they know him but they know only a stage managed presence. They are in love with the idea of Maharaji and their own perception of what Maharaji is.

I was like this myself once, of course. When the illusion begins to shatter then immediately the self defence mechanisms come into play. Indignant or flowery posts are written here in praise of Maharaji. This is a natural reaction to a person having their illusions shattered. The illusion isn't shattered overnight. With me it took about six months from start to finish and in that time I occasionally posted stuff that was often pro Maharaji.

For most people, Maharaji exists inside of their head. There Maharaji is a cooked up fabrication a bit like an imaginary friend. What he has become is that person's own personal God.

God Himself may well exist but the premie has identified God as being Maharaji. There is no and, ifs or buts here - that's what happens. So all of the longing and love that is for such a being as God is projected onto an imaginary Maharaji inside a person's head. The thing which saved me when my illusions were finally shattered was that I realised that while Maharaji wasn't God - God was still there and was actually the thing I'd been communicating with for all those years.

Yet I am almost an atheist most of the time. I am a 'hoper' that God exists. Maharaji is not God and that is one of the hardest lessons a premie ever learns. It takes months or even years for the truth to sink in and the outcome can be devastating and that is why I think some compassion and understanding is needed for all people who post on this forum.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:44:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: And please also visit
Message:
the wonderful delights of Maharaji's toilet and the hidden wonders therein.

Recent visitors to this site may not have seen this.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:17:08 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks for the Tour
Message:
Sir Dave,

You words are very wise. Actually, the satsangy stuff is easy to scroll through and didn't really bother me but the antagonistic CW's et al. reeeally get my better side.

Thanks for the response. I'm healing and want to let people know that I was not at my emotional best...going through the personal earthquake and all.

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:58:31 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: *** For those who keep asking for links ***
Message:
On the EPO site there has been for some time an excellent repository of links to other Maharaji sites and forums.

But, in spite of this being easily accessible from the EPO home page, people keep asking for the links here.

So, to make it easy to find these sites, there is now a new link at the top of this page, to the EPO links page - 'Other Forums and Links'. Surf at your leisure:-)

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:07:38 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Perhaps we could have some training...
Message:
on the 'possibility of maybe finding the link to the links?' After all, not all of us here can actually use our brains very well yet, 30 years of following a master who changes direction, message and even the order of the 4 techniques doesn't equip you for the logic of this cyber-world, you know. (Faint sound of 'It's all too beautiful, it's all too beauoootiful, it's all too ...fade. Out.)
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:04:33 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Link suggestions
Message:
Please send any link suggestions to me, not to JM.

He's too busy putting pages online, but I have plenty of time to ignore suggestions :)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:49:34 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: No no no
Message:
I'll update this new links page, and don't worry, you'll have every link to anything on that page .....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:29:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel and Brian
Subject: Need EV is a church link
Message:
Somewhere in the white papers of wherever, it would be good to have a line that said something like, EV is a legally registered church with the US IRS, although it claims NOT to be a religion.

Here's the link:

EV is a church

I'm hoping to find more. If that link doesn't always work (who knows if they recompile their database and everything changes), you go to: Guidestar and type in Elan Vital in the search engine.

I was given the information on Guidestar by the California Attorney General's office. Guidestar is a national database of nonprofit organizations. Since EV is a CHURCH, they do not have to report to the AG's registry of charitable trusts.

a pity!--f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:04:47 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Aw...
Message:
You never let me have any fun!

I'll update this new links page, and don't worry, you'll have every link to anything on that page.

Okay, but you're gonna have to start a new area on the links page - Weird Suggested Links :)

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:49:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It-aint-so aint!
Message:
it-aint-so.org appears to be down.

www.it-aint-so.org simply displays 'www.it-aint-so.org'

What's happening? Using the same ISP as EPO?

John the curious to check out the new pictures.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:10:03 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: JHB
Subject: It-aint-so sorta is
Message:
She's got a server problem. Entering the domain name alone is supposed to cause the server to send the default page index.htm (which just re-directs to a page she titled home.htm). The server isn't serving up the default page.

You can reach her site by adding index.htm to the domain: www.it-aint-so.org/index.htm until the problem is fixed.

There, Pia, I'm propagating your site. Now you just have to add a link to EPO and we'll be square...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:21:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks Brian, this works (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:03:44 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Try going to it another way
Message:
I had the same thing happen to me when I tried to get to it through my favourits list. But then I when through another link it was ok. Not sure why this is happening.

Hope this is of some help.

Kev.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:09:09 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: I did - did you?
Message:
Kev,

I went through www.enjoying-life.org and got the www.it-aint-so.org site which is simply displaying 'www.it-aint-so.org'.

Can you actually reach the site???

John.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:18:56 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes, just been there :NT
Message:
dg
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:13:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: you may have routing problems JHB
Message:
I got to it right away from bookmarks (called favorites for all you IE types)
Not that I read anything. I wish the stupid site would go down or at least open up to discussion. yeah and pigs do fly in private jets.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:57:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Must be those Routing Vegetables (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:56:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Don't you mean Rutting Vegetables?
Message:
or is that randy fruits or moldy mangelwurzels? Better got to bed before I say something silly. Have fun and watch out for Patricia the thoroughly modern PWK. Oh boy!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:00:51 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Excuse me but I am no longer a vegetable
Message:
of this galaxy. I have been absorbed (see below, or above, my mind is going..
going... gone) and am now an intergalactic cabbage (of the Findhorn variety).
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:59:07 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Findhorn OT
Message:
Does it still exist? I was there in 77 , 2 weeks , very cool at the time. Maybe it would not be so appealing now but it was a revelation just a year after moving out of the ashram. Very good memories!!
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 05:48:25 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Think it does (still exist)
Message:
Wasn't it Eillen Caddy and some bloke started that? I nearly went but met some premies for the first time, fell into the trap and, well, you know the rest....

I was in Glastonbury last year and remember seeing a couple of books about it. I'm sure its changed a lot, probably all their veggies have to conform to Euro standard sizes now and the commune members carry SmartCards! Could look for a website but I can't be arsed.

Nice memories though, thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:46:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: so did they have gigantic cabbages? OT
Message:
The Magic of Findhorn remember reading it ages ago, as a premie and thinking it was my new bible. I found it a few years back and wondered who it was that thought that.
Did they have giant veggies and Pan and his elves running around?
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:16:43 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so did they have gigantic cabbages? OT
Message:
I was there in spring, not cabbage season. What I heard was that this was something of the first years when the old professor still lived. No I did not see elves, althoug the energy did feel special. actually very special.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:36:16 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: OK found a link to Findhorn
Message:
It wasn't hard really:) I'm a Dogpile junkie at heart

Here it is:

Findorn

Looks like they're as out-there as ever!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:10:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Well, I have to go and chop vegetables
Message:
Oh that was you channelling one of Johnstons' ''aspects.'' Off to work now.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:50:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Don't you mean Rutting 'Aspects'?
Message:
I Want To Believe that Patricia is goofing. Man what are these things that are clapping and making noise all over her?

I feel sorry for adult kids of parents like this. Hopefully its a spoof but I've seen so much new age I sadly doubt it.

At any rate I shouldn't really judge her because I couldn't make sense of anything much she said except I think she was being supportive? of someone?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:12:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Rawat counts the premies' ''Aspects''
Message:
Every thoroughly modern PWK has multiple personalities - their minds, their hearts, their Inner Children, their Inner Mahaharajis and all their previous incarnations, the ascended masters, ETs, angles and all their other ''aspects.''

That's how EV counts figures. When they say 5,000 premies attended an event they really mean 500 because each has ten aspects.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:34:37 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: You meant 'angels' not 'angles', right?
Message:
One of my pwk friends, shortly before I left the fold last summer, told me she and another pwk friend talk to angels. Is this common amongs pwks's these day, anybody know.

Your post was very funny and has the right mix of truth and humour in it. Thanks.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:50:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Yes, Steve, a lot of PWKs believe in angles
Message:
oops I mean angels. The industrial strength church ladies always tut-tut and poo-poo when the fringe premies talk about ''spiritual'' stuff and tell them that You Know Who does not like spiritual stuff.

Of course, the fact that Rev Rawat talks about Krishna is not spiritual stuff because as everyone knows Krishna was a real historical figure like Vishnu only he didn't have four arms and ten heads because humans had evolved by that time and only had two arms and one head but multiple ''aspects'' all of whom get counted as separate premies when they go to events. And in India of course several premies are throwbacks to Vishnu and still have ten heads so, when 5,000,000 premies show up in New Delhi they only have 250,000 legs between them.

Just having fun, Steve, and counting my blessings and reclaiming my sanity. I hope you are too. I wish you well.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:03:10 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: I'm trying to have fun, but it's hard
Message:
Just having fun, Steve, and counting my blessings and reclaiming my sanity. I hope you are too. I wish you well.

That's a good line Pat, I think I should make that my mantra for a while. I tend to take life very seriously for a number of reasons, including the fact that I'm recovering from schizophrenia induced by following Rawat.

I do try to laugh whenever I can but I'm still split between the viewpoint that life is serious and the viewpoint that life is funny.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I know you've had hard time, Steve
Message:
And I have also looked into the jaws of hell. I pulled myself out with years of effort and thinking positively. Not fighting the negative but developing the positive. Your problems have been more serious than mine but you'll find your strength and power soon.

Well, life is serious to me that's why I can laugh at silly ideas. I don't laugh at practical things like being strong and happy, having a good job and a roof over my head. Those are deadly serious things for me. But all this silly new age stuff is just so much clutter and hot air and does not put food on my table.

Eventhough I was prejudiced against the new agey aspects of the power of positive thinking, affirmations helped me a lot.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:58:06 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It-aint-so aint!
Message:
Try http://it-aint-so.org. Leave out the www
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:00:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I did - did you?
Message:
Maybe it's the routers in this part of the world, but I don't get anything. Did you try it?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:58:19 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: detective meets a cult member
Message:
Hi y'all,
Who else could I share this laugh with? Who else would understand? Here's a quote from a a Jonathan Kellerman murder mystery. The 'speaker' is the main character, Alex Delaware:

'I had lunch at a restaurant run by one of the dozens of quasi-Hindu cuts that seem to prefer Los Angeles to Calcutta. A vacant-eyed, perpetually smiling girl swaddled in white robes and burnoose took my order. She had a rich kid's face coupled with the mannerisms of a nun and managed to smile while she talked, smile as she wrote, smile as she walked away. I wondered if it hurt.' --ha ha!

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: detective meets a cult member
Message:
Hi Helen
Remember the Golden Temple Restaurants? There was one here and I went to one in DC, I think Georgetown.
I think they went out of business cause they were really expensive!! I mean I still like vegetarian food but sheesh beans and rice and flour just aren't that expensive.
I read a fiction, one of those types while sick with my last cold not this one, it is escaping me, the name but the cult references were right on, will look to see if it's around because the author had some experience even mentioned how CAN had been infiltrated by Scientology.
A lot of people are getting pissed off at this cult issue.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:58:23 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hi Selene
Message:
It was great seeing you in San Francisco, was that you that dropped the ten bucks in the backseat of my car on the ride back to the hotel. Wild and crazy time wasn't it....
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 05:22:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: most likely me but I usually carry ...
Message:
50's.
So you owe me 50 bucks huh? :)
haha just kidding. I was totally fucking out of it, as if I need to say that. I do remember [at least there is that] and I thought you guys were great.
Just saying hi back at ya and remembering the stories. What a world we were living in back then.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:04:14 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: detective meets a cult member
Message:
OOOH--I would love to have the name of the book you're referring to, it sounds great. The Golden Temple did have good food, that I do remember--ate there often in Dupont Circle. You know, I always had a fascination for the Sikhs. I guess the cult is always greener on the other side of the fence, that's my problem, I am fascinated by this stuff and don't see the harm in it til I am up close and personal. I guess they hold their guru Yogi Bajhan up on a magical pedestal like we did Maharaji. I guess I was always fascinated by the Muslim-Hindu mix and how they wore the swords around their necks and were into their 'power.' I worked at Yes restaurant in Georgetown with Sikhs and premies way back when, god, everyone there was in one cult or another! I also lived on a commune outside of Baltimore one summer and there was a woman there in love with a Sikh guy, all very fascinating to young and impressionable me 25 years ago!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:24:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: found it on my bookshelf but...
Message:
I browsed thru. I remember my last flu, sent my husband out to the supermarket for anything to read and here it is: Thief of Souls by Darian North.
It is one of those, starts out good and I didn't like the ending.
I think his effort was sincere but,, well you know me I read anything when bored, except computer manuals :)

it was the acknowledgements I remembered:
he gives his greatest thanks to 'the people I promised not to name - the cult victims who shared their pain with me. Thank you all for your help and your trust. And thank you to the professionals who offerred insight but asked to remain anonymous'

He thanks the what he calls now defunct Cult Awareness Network.
And The American Family Foundation, some others.
If you want the book I can snail mail it to ya, just email me your address.
L,
Selene

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 20:49:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: found it on my bookshelf but...
Message:
I would love the book! I can probably find it at the library????
God, Selene, when are we goign to write our book, the continuation of Red Nighty Chronicles....

Remember the Whole Earth catalogs way back when? They would always have a running novel in the corners of the pages. Our Chronicles have that flavor.

There's so much material. The dramas here on forum 5 are more interesting though-ha ha!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:49:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: running /chaining writing
Message:
I miss that so much. For me, I seem to only be able to write in a public forum like this, where the real purpose is not necessarily writing but the material is there to write *about* and is always new and always coming in. Does that make sense?
Red Butler has been doing some of that but I didn't want to be the only one adding to it.

That's why the Chronicles were so much fun, we all fed it.
I don't enjoy writing alone, my attention wanders and all.

The book is about a year old I think. ick scary to be counting time by when I got the flu last. It should be a library or a used book store, not sure i'd pay the new book price for it although it does have some value as an exercise or example of how someone else wove a story around what happened to a man who lost his wife to a cult.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:32:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: running /chaining writing
Message:
Those are my thoughts exactly...that it would be great to read that novel as it is woven around a theme that is near, if not dear, to our hearts!

And yes...writing the Chronicles with you was wonderful, creative,exciting etc. I get more done collaboratively also. You're a great writer, I don't say that lightly.
Gotta run
Hell

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 01:49:22 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: if you can't find it i'll send it to ya
Message:
And thank you. Coming from you that is a very touching compliment.

and so, for now I think I'll just read On Writing. Turns out a lot of the people in my English Dept. really like the book as well. Not that I needed their ok but it really is good.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 21:12:28 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: if you can't find it i'll send it to ya
Message:
I have a bookshelf full of books about writing, and about how to write.

But here's a book for ya: 'Just write'--and it didn't cost ya a dime. I know, I know, it's more complex than that....it's hard to write and to feel confident enough that one has something important enough to say.

But whatever it takes, I hope we both write some more!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:28:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: oh and ps the acknowledgement
Message:
Doesn't say CAN was taken over by those S folks, just calls CAN defunct. My mistake/ interpretation. He probably didn't want to mention them!!
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:08:57 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: detective meets a cult member
Message:
Yeah, that's me, seven reasons to be blissful, one two three!
I thought you said ..defective!. whatever!
Kelly
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:05:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: detective meets a cult member
Message:
HA HA defective--Yeah, that's what we thought of people who didn't have knowledge!
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:56:44 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New photos appear on it-aint-so.org!
Message:
Actually it is a montage - childhood photos, current shots, one with a cowboy hat, but none with the Krishna crown!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:19:35 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Looks like a teenagers bedroom wall.nt
Message:
gh
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:42:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Old photos, very cute - so why no old words?
Message:
If Wonderboy was sharing all those profound insights from an early age, with thousands flocking to see him, you'd think Aintso would be proud to pass on a few choice samples for today's PWWTAFK's. Even from the old mugshot photos they have managed to fish out a few which hide the messianic pretences.

They can't of course because he talked nothing but confused, superstitious, Bhak-to-basics guru-jive - every 'teaching' and cosmological 'explanation' an affront to the educucated mind.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:06:00 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: New photos appear on it-aint-so.org!
Message:
Funny how they never show the Krishna pictures. Anyone would think they are a cult with a past they are ashamed of. Silly me, I was forgetting M never ever or even hinted at in the least bit that he was ever GOD That was just those crazy premies again. You know what their like. They see a man on stage and he just happens to be dressed up as Krishna and wearing a silly hat that just happens to look like a Krishna crown and what to they think; his say his GOD. Where could they have possibly got such a stupid idea as that from.

Love kev

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:46:16 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: What? No malas? Are they ashamed of their Lord? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:51:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: site on web-classactionsuit.com
Message:
I got this link in my mailbox yesterday and checked it out. I registered for free as a member and wrote them this letter to explain my interest. I invite all of you to chime in and send similar ones, so they know how many of us there are who have discussed this .

the letter said:

Subject: my text to classaction dot com
  I am an exiting member of a cult that has been in operation in the US since july 17 of 1971. I joined it in may of 1973. I am one of thousands who are leaving and are furious at what was done to our lives as a result of believing the leader of this movement. We have a website with over 500 pages of damning information about the workings, history and principle figures in this operation, and we have discussed the subject of bringing a class action suit against the leader, numerous times. Among our more active members we count two attorneys, one licensed in California, one in Canada, although they do not act as counsel but are equally angry exiting members. The leader we want to sue is a multimillionaire with staggering resources, all of which he amassed on our backs with unpaid slave labor. We have, among our numbers, people with chronic debilitating health conditions, incurred as a result of their labor for him, numerous suicides, numerous psychiatrically disabled members (of which I am one,) victims of child sexual abuse who suffered molestations by this man's appointed ambassadors, with his knowledge, and a host of enraged ex members, keen on dismantling this man's global efforts, revoking his US citizenship, and banishing him back to his homeland in India, without a penny of what he took from us, and continues to take from his followers today. We want restitution, we want the public record set straight, we want all of his organization's improper tactics and methods exposed to the relevant authorities, and he and they prosecuted for collusion and intentional dishonesty.

For the full breadth of our situation, go to http://www.ex-premie.org
and read at your leisure. There is a lot to absorb. I am there on Forum V every night, posting as 'janet'.
We feel it is time to act. This man is a fraud. We have records going back to his first day in the western hemisphere, a collection of damning evidence, proving his claims, which he now denies. He has ordered destroyed by his current followers all such evidence from his past work, but we have what he could not capture: papers, publications, videos, audiotapes, public records, letters, and the personal testimony of eyewitnesses who were forced to do service to his many crimes.

We want justice, not only for ourselves, but for everyone he holds in thrall and has defrauded, and especially for those of our friends and associates who forfeited their lives in believing this man's claims.

I hope to hear from you in response soon. I will be sharing this with my associate exiting members.

JP Schwartz

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:04:29 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: site on web-classactionsuit.com
Message:
Hi Janet,

I think we should talk about this a lot more. I feel that we do have enough reason (my opinion, Francesca--although I really respect you for being the devils advocate--critical thinking is the utmost important)to pursue. This would bring M into the spot light so fast he wouldn't know what hit him, nor would the public or the high positioned and high profile premies like a certain movie star.

Personally, I want to stop the BigHead dead in his tracks. Let the jury, judge, and public determine how our life was affected. If we knew then what we know now, it would be different. We didn't. I say 'Go Public'. A lot would be accomplished by bring our accusations out into the open to be speculated and evaluated by the collective society. Otherwise, we're only preaching to the choir even the choir members that are tone-deaf (premies).

I also believe that people should write books, newspaper and magazine articles, contact television hosts, the News, and other media.
Francesca, the fact that we are so individual and experienced such individual repercussions may be the appealing factor in this case.

Remember when EV interrupted the efforts of deprogramming. If my memory serves me correctly MiraBei was one of those who escaped her parents well intended efforts only to commit suicide requesting that M reincarnate her again with him. We may not win the battle but we will win the War.

A life unexamined is not worth living....Plato

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:54:31 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: you need a lawyer and a case
Message:
I'm not just being the devil's advocate. I've worked in law for 21 years. Without a lawyer to take your case, and a legal cause of action, this will go into the hot air department. I'm truly tired of hearing this same old saw. Janet, bless her heart, loves to rabble rouse this stuff. Maybe she'll get a bite this time, and at least she's tried to do something about it. I don't know much about MiraBei's story, but this is a good example of an individual who was wronged. But an individual case and a class action are not the same thing. Two different animals.

But as far as your thoughts on getting the word out or starting problems for Rawat, I agree whole heartedly. More power to anyone who can do it, and hip hip hooray for Brian, Katie, J-M, Sir Dave, Susan, Abi and anyone who has tried to do the same, and who tells their story on this forum.

Respectfully,
--f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:07:58 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: you need a lawyer and a case
Message:
Hi Francesca,

Thanks for patience regarding this issue, your advice is well taken. I'll report back to the forum after I speak with an attorney, who has successfully prosecuted some very high profile cases, with his advice. Thanks again.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:12:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Don't bother
Message:
Deborah,

I've consulted with class-action guys. Did so as recently as a couple of months ago. There's nothing. Individual suits, sure, but class-action, no.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:29:50 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't bother
Message:
Hi Jim,

I'm not attached to Class-Action Suits (per se) but I want to know if there is anything LEGAL that could done.

Or, is there anything about M & the history that could legally instigate some kind of investigation?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:07:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: This is, of course, a good question
Message:
Deborah,

If you have anyone knowledgeable that you can talk to that you don't have to pay for a consult, it might be worth pursuing. You may have an individual case based upon your personal situation, who knows?

Regarding legalities of M and EV, it will depend upon which country you are in. Since EV is running as a legal entity in many different countries under many different laws, it will depend upon the laws of that country whether EV is in compliance with the law, and whether M himself is conducting himself in a way that complies with the law.

That being said, others with more knowledge have set out bits and pieces of information in posts on the forum, speaking of, at least in the US and UK, of an elaborate web of shell companies that are actually owned and operated by others but who funnel profits to M. From what people have posted M makes sure to have little or no obvious legal connection to the sources of his funds. Yet he may be the major stockholder, or whatever. Whether each one of these arrangements and sources of funds are legal is anyone's guess.

There were a lot of premie businesses set up using mostly ashram premies as the workers. Some of those evolved into other businesses. There is a tangled web of stuff internationally and in various countries that I don't believe anyone has taken on because of the time and effort involved, and the possible lack of any results worth all the effort. Michael Dettmers, who posts here from time to time, helped M and EV set up an operation that at least passed IRS review in the 80s, because apparently DLM/EV got in trouble with the IRS. So a lot of their problems in the US appear to have been taken care of by financial and legal advisors.

Even if you look up the information on the $7 million yacht, you will see that other people supposedly own it, but I believe it all comes down to Kathy Gliebe (one of M's staff) and the Anacapa View address (the residence in Malibu). So it's all majorly fishy, of course. It would take a lot of work and time to catch a hold of all the loose wires, then to be able to determine whether there are any violations of the law, and then whether any government agency with jurisdiction over those laws would give a rat's ass.

In the meantime, under the French laws, the Combat article has started up something. The most effective thing would be to look at where there would be publicity and/or results, and not to sweat the small stuff.

--f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:34:24 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: site on web-classactionsuit.com
Message:
Great post, Janet, but with one small exception ...

'We have records going back to his first day in the western hemisphere, a collection of damning evidence, proving his claims, which he now denies.'

I take it you meant to say that the evidence proves that he made those former claims (i.e. to be a guru 'greater than God' - 'that Superior Power in Person' etc.)

NOT that EPO's evidence proves his claims.
.
.
.
With reference to that one point of order, I fully endorse your post.

Good work, IMO

Chris

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:56:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Love you janet, but
Message:
I think it's presumptuous to say 'we.' I don't give a rat's ass if Rawat gets sued, to tell you the truth, although it could be funny.

But you could have said 'some of the persons who post on the Forum have expressed the wish for a class-action suit' or something like that. I don't think it's a good thing to say it's a unified effort here, especially because you fired off the letter before asking us.

I don't knock you for trying, but it also ruins your credibility if they come on the site and find that very few people are talking class action suit.

I really don't think there's grounds for any type of class action suit. But that's just my 2 cents. Anyone else can knock themselves out, of course. But leave me out of it.

respectfully,
f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:37:14 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Fransesca! GO, GO JANET!
Message:
What side are u on?....just kidding.

I really don't think there's grounds for any type of class action suit. But that's just my 2 cents. Anyone else can knock themselves out, of course. But leave me out of it.

What happen Fransesca with live and let live? Many of us ARE interested in bringing justice and I don't care what you say, watch it, more and more furipous ex-premies will continue to appear. Many of us diligently gave our lives to OUR LORD, WE SURRENDER OUR LIVES AS HE ASKED US, to guide us 'THERE'. Shit that is!

Shut...your unfair mouth sister!
I know, you have the right to speak your mind, me too!

Love 2 u and specially to Janet. GO GIRL!

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:31:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Silvia, best typo of week: ''furipous ex-premies!'
Message:
The extra pee makes it sound much more angry than furious and I bet it has M peeing in his pants.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 12:37:16 (GMT)
From: FURIPOUS ex-premie Silvia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I shouldn't post
Message:
in my way to the bathroom any more!

ROFL!!

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:23:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Get a grip, Silvia
Message:
Shut...your unfair mouth sister!

You're out of control.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:01:10 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: YOU're out of control and many know it. nt
Message:
aha
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 03:58:11 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Lawsuits
Message:
There is a huge difference between an individual lawsuit and the legal requirements for filing a class action lawsuit. Before anyone castigates others here for questioning whether a class action is justified, get some informed legal advice about what must be established in order to legally justify a class action suit.

It is fine with me that you are outraged about what happened to you and others. But don't belittle those that disagree with you about which legal vehicles are appropriate to right the wrongs that have been done. Litigation is not something that can or should be lightly undertaken. It is not always the correct vehicle for an injured party to seek redress.

Captain Rawat has unlimited funds and an international law firm available to protect his interests. Don't underestimate the harm they could cause to someone's life who sued EV and him. Is it really worth the cost? These are some of the realities of the litigation you propose. Also, be prepared for each and everything you have ever written here or said to still devoted friends to be used against you. If you have a documented medical history of mental difficulties, be prepared for it to be made public. Got a court history -- like a divorce? That will come out too. Know what you face before jumping in head first.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 04:04:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks once again
Message:
My favorite 'counselor' always comes through! I agree with Pat! How many times a year do you have to post that. Probably should save a few cut-n-pastes!

LOVE, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:01:37 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thank you Marianne! Great post (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:32:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Lawsuits - spoken like a trooper, Marianne
Message:
How many times a year do you have to iterate that?
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:03:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Silvia, there is righteous anger ...
Message:
... and there is the law. People perceive that they are wronged on a daily basis that have no LEGAL grounds upon which to sue. And there are things that are morally wrong in some people's minds, but there's no law against it. There may be INDIVIDUALS that have a legitimate lawsuit against Rawat, but I reiterate -- I doubt there's any LEGAL grounds for a class action here on the part of all of us. You can be as angry as you want, and that's fine with me--you have every right to be. And I enjoy your wild ways. AND if you or anyone else can find a lawyer who'll take your case, more power to you.

It's not a matter of being on 'sides,' it's a matter of WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE A CASE. Many people have come on this forum in the 4 -6 months I've been here, saying they will 'sue Rawat's ass,' and I believe people, from time to time, have been saying this for years. If someone has been abused or molested, coerced into giving away the family fortune -- go talk to a lawyer, for sure.

I'm in the group that just needs to see how stupid I was, see why I did that, make sure not to make those mistakes again, and warn others not to follow Rawat.

LOVE, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:54:04 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: anger versus a valid case ...
Message:
I am no lawyer but I'm afraid I must agree with Francesca. We were not forced to join the cult. We went like lambs to the slaughter hoping to get the solution to all our problems and bring peace to all. We were young, mostly.
I hope there is someone with a VALID legal claim so that Mr Rawat can at least be exposed in public and MAYBE he will one day see the error of his ways and apologise. I'm not holding my breath, although Jean Michel has made a great start in France.
Love from Tim
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 14:14:33 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Tim G and F
Subject: Thanks Francesca and Tim - and a lawsuit story
Message:
My view on lawsuits are well known, and you echo quite a few of them.

I've also found, through personal experience, that even if one DOES have a valid legal claim, AND wins the lawsuit, it doesn't get rid of the anger (or grief, or whatever.) In fact, lawsuits generally take forever, so one has to live with that anger/grief/etc. for several years - and this can intensify it.

I've told this story on here a few times, but my family won a wrongful death lawsuit re my father's death. I agreed to join in the lawsuit to support my brother and sister - mostly my brother. It took five years, and we did win the lawsuit, but nothing much happened as a result to change the situation under which my father's death occurred, or to discipline the doctors who were convicted of malpractice. I also believe that it hurt my brother irreparably to go through all this - it's been over ten years now, and he still hasn't been able to grieve over my dad's death and probably never will.

I'm not saying that no one should ever sue Maharaji - I'm just cautioning people to be aware of what that will entail - including people poking around in YOUR personal life, and possibly that of your family, and making it public. I was fortunate in that I didn't have to testify in the lawsuit re my father (and also fortunate that I was a potential witness so that I didn't have to listen to the OTHER testimony), but I think that was the defense lawyer's strategy - it looked bad to grill grieving children. I doubt that this would be the case in a lawsuit against Maharaji.

I've been criticized for being too negative about lawsuits on this forum - but I think people should understand what they may have to go through should they initiate this kind of action - and decide whether it's worth it for them or not.

BTW, I have no grounds for any kind of lawsuit against Maharaji - class or individual - and I also wish people would not say 'we', and refer to the ex-premie.org website when discussing class action.

Take care all -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:18:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: And thanks for your story
Message:
Katie:

Phew. Thanks for your story. Point well taken about scrutiny happening on all sides. It's attack and defense in law -- it is not one-sided.

Winning a lawsuit on a personal matter seems like it is often like fighting a battle or a crusade. Years ago I worked on several wrongful death cases (at least 3 that come immediately to mind), and they were painful for the families. One resulted in a greater social good (a better wheelchair lift for handicapped bus riders), but the family was not entirely satisfied with the result. They went away a bit bitter and sad.

One had a better end result for the family, because two young men in their twenties were left without parents (the father had taken off years ago) and I think the settlement helped them go through college. I haven't worked in torts for years, but they are not fun for anyone.

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:03:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Thanks for that
Message:
People love to say they'll sue without knowing if they have a case, or what pursuing the case will take out of them. And I would love to see someone come forward who has a successful case. But in some ways, I wouldn't wish that on anyone!

Marianne once said something to the effect that she couldn't speculate on the merit of a case than any individual might be able to bring, but that a lawsuit isn't the only answer.

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:27:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Precisely Tim and Fran
Message:
There may be labour related abuses which one could enquire about from OSHA or the LRB (Labor Relations Board) from the DECA days but probably statute of limitations has kicked in. There may also be sexual harassment violations and other stuff but all of it has to be brought to justice by the individuals involved.

Some of us are working behind the scenes to find out if there is any fraud or tax-evasion involved in EV claiming to be a CHURCH BUT NOT A RELIGION. However no court case will result from this simply more embarassment for the cult in the court of public opinion.

However, if it turns out that money was solicited under false pretenses and used for purposes other than those stated, then I - NOT WE - will do research into precedents involving other cases where money was solicited with intent to deceive.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:50:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Re-post of Nigel's post to Janet about my post
Message:
Here's a repost of Nigel's post to Janet on his Emergency 5 forum:

Hi Janet (hope you don't mind me replying here)

I am a bit puzzled by your response to Jim here:

if you change your focus, from the argument, to attacking the essence of the person you are taking issue with, you are therefore asking your audience to make that change with you, and many will not do that, for it is not relevant to the discussion, and you forfeit whatever progress you were making with convincing your audience to see the issue as you see it.

You are right to say ad hominem attacks reduce the effectiveness of an argument, but I went back and trawled Jim's post for a single example and drew a blank. There may have been a couple of 'fucks' here and there but the tone, if forthright, was pretty civil and the focus wholly on the discussion.

Anyway, if you don’t mind, I am going to try and guess which sentences and phrases you found offensive. (Correct me if I am wrong, Jan...)

Most premies who do so lie anonymously, either with psuedonyms, first names only or, in the case of the EV Frequently Asked Questions, unnamed entirely. You, however, have put your own name and integrity on the line here. Too bad for. ['you'(?)].

Had Jim written 'you're a liar' and no more then yes, he would be attacking the essence of the guy and not dealing with his arguments. But Jim has pointed out the lies in question and is saying more like 'you're putting your good name on the line here because such-and-such isn't true', which is not the same thing.

Why are you so maddeningly vague about everything?

Mr Strait’s account is indeed vague and Mr Heller finds such vagueness maddening. (Who doesn't?) Also fills in the missing detail. Again, in the context of a point-by-point rebuttal I don't see anything in the way of personal attack.

Maharaji's a paper lion and you know it.

Hmm, maybe a little bit personal, suggesting Mr Strait might be in denial or whatever, but it is hardly a savage put-down, is it? It might even do the guy some good to consider the possibility that he is being less than honest with himself.

Can't imagine taking any more responsibility than that. But really, if I'm wrong, talk with me. Set me straight. Other than that, fuck off with this 'responsibility' shit. You're projecting.

Even the 'fuck off' here is a qualified ‘fuck off' – relating to one aspect of the guy’s web-post only, ie. responsibility – just a ‘please don’t procure for me this ordure, kind Sir, or I would prefer it if you sallied forth for a moment’s multiplication’. I'd have said more an expression of exasperation than overt hostility. Eloquent, even, in regular-guy-talking way. Seriously, I read this as an invite for the guy to back up his allegations. Wording not to everyone's taste, maybe, but still not an attack on the essence of the person.

Your consistent vagueness is tiring.

Mr Strait is being vague again and Mr Heller finds such vagueness tiring, and says so. Pretty innocuous. And that’s about it. Or have I missed something?

I didn’t intend to make any big deal out if this, Janet, but I thought Jim's was an excellent post. And given the number of times he has been criticised (rightly or wrongly – opinions vary) for what you have accused him of doing here, it seems a shame to call him on it when it isn't happening. Also, bear in mind that WS is not just some innocent forum bystander, but is a (presumably EV sanctioned) propagandist contributing to a website which has published outright lies – some of them about Jim personally. Bearing this in mind, I would say Jim’s letter is uncharacteristically restrained.

Anyway, I notice you and Jim have engaged in further dialogue underneath so perhaps I'll go and see whether you have yet reached an entente cordiale...

Janet, I, too, asked you to substaniate your criticism but you ignored me. Maybe you'd like to resolve this? Anyway, for reference, below is the post you took issue with.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:51:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: MY old post re-posted for reference
Message:
*******

Current Focus
Of praise and criticism of Maharaji, and the purpose of this site

Maharaji has been both publicly praised and publicly criticized since he was very young. Even before he was proclaimed a living Master at the age of eight, thousands in India would listen with amazement while he spoke with profound understanding about human life and its possibility.

I used to think his satsangs from back then were profound and amazingly precocious as well. I don't any longer. Indeed, far from being filled with any kind of understanding about anything, they're simply run-of-the-mill spiritual slogans, cliches and hoary old stories parroting his guru father. When he actually ventured out of the mold to try to comment on the real world, he revealed how young and immature he really was. Here, for example, is Maharaji at 14 on diet:

The root is the consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie ? Because root, if you take root itself, it's in a seed. You see, there is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a being, right ? Like supposedly, some people eat cow, right? Cow comes from life, a mother. Right ? And that also come from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a plant does not come from a life. It comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits.

or this disposition on life and 'karma':

A man did some sins and he dies. His ego flies with the sins. His soul flies with the things which are good. Right? Now these two things fly and this ego jet tries to follow where the soul goes. Now this soul goes and lands in that little boy - right? - And these bad actions that were being carried by ego also go into that little boy. As soon as he is taught 'I', you know, and he understands 'I', right from there he has done a mistake. And 'I' means ego. Because he understood 'I' he has done a mistake. He does not know it then, but after some time he does know it. And then all these other things start, because he has accepted that ego. And by now that ego has completely landed. First it had not landed, it was just flying around. Soul had landed. It took a birth. But as soon as he said 'I', ego said O.K, land now. And at that moment it has landed.

Pure balderdash, both. Or do you think otherwise?

He spoke with an ease and conviction that defied rational explanation and attracted the highest of praise, even reverence, on the one hand and skepticism or even harsh criticism on the other.

The 'ease and conviction' made perfect sense given the fact that he grew up in such bizarre circumstances where his father was reverred as God incarnate. Maharaji merely siezed the mike and played at daddy's game. The skepticism and harsh criticism came from outside the cult. Those inside were wrapped up in a fairly-tale existance wherein Shri Hans' whole family was divine. Hardly objective.

After one of his presentations given before an audience of tens of thousands of people in New Delhi, a news article was published claiming that 'the boy guru' was a fraud and was not speaking the words being heard at all, but simply mouthing them while a tape recorder was playing through the loudspeakers.

I'm sure that theory wasn't true. Rather, Maharaji was just adept at performing daddy's vaudeville routine. Any transcripts of Maharaji's early talks prove the point handily. There's nary an original thought. It's all hindu boilerplate. Impressive? No.

The explanation was offered that the charismatic boy was being used as a mere circus attraction for his parents and to promote a particular brand of Hinduism. Such was an early attempt to explain a phenomenon that did not lend itself easily to rational explanation. After a few years, the young Maharaji, while still attending grammar school and speaking only on weekends and holidays, was earning a growing reputation. It was not unusual for hundreds of thousands of people to travel long distances to hear him deliver a timeless, yet confronting message.

It's no defense at all to say that Shri Hans' own cult followers started worshipping Maharaji on cue. Really, what's that? Indian's love their religion, that's a fact, and they love their gurus. It matters little to say that Maharaji was so reverred. So were his brothers. So was his mother. What about them?

Reduced to its simplest form, his message was extremely simple, 'What you are truly looking for can be found within.' It was at least obvious to most who listened to him that his speaking was his own and not a trick. He was neither lip-synching his discourses nor even memorizing prepared statements, but was speaking his own words spontaneously.

Again, what is the big deal about this? The kid's father trained them to give these sermons and they did. Big fucking deal, already!

Many began referring to him as Perfect Master, Satguru, or true guru of the times.

This only occurred after Maharaji was annointed accordingly by his mother and the cult leadership. Why do you lie like this? Who do you think you're fooling?

Others said that some who were praising him were more interested in proclaiming Maharaji's identity in terms of the Hindu cosmology than they were in taking his message to heart.

How about Maharaji's own interest in doing so? Why else would he say things like:

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us.

Again, who do you think you're fooling? New people? Only so long as they don't find EPO. I'm sure you'll one day regret the fact that you posted all these lies under your own name, Mr. Strait. Most premies who do so lie anonymously, either with psuedonyms, first names only or, in the case of the EV Frequently Asked Questions, unmaned entirely. You, however, have put your own name and integrity on the line here. Too bad for.

While Maharaji was being praised with the highest of accolades offered by Indian tradition, new criticisms began to be leveled against him in the press. An article designed to discredit the young boy in the eyes of Hindus appeared in the Times of India under the sensationalist banner headline, 'I am not a Hindu!' The quote had been taken out of context from a press conference in which Maharaji had been asked by a reporter, 'Do you follow the Hindu religion?' Maharaji had responded to the question by saying that he was not a Hindu, nor was he a Muslim, nor a Christian, and that while he respected all faiths, he was not here to proclaim any particular religion or to start a new one. He simply wanted to offer people an inner experience he called Knowledge.

Your point, if I read you right, seems to be that Maharaji was once slightly misunderstood by the media. Sorry, but if that's your example of sensationalistic lies and distortions, it isn't much. It is, in fact, an arguably accurate inference from Maharaji's own words. Beside that, though, even assuming for argument's sake that this was a terrible misrepresentation, so what? All public figures, especially, I'd imagine, those who claim, as in the quote above, to be 'the highest infestation of God' (joke!), get a little flack from time to time. Deal with the Combat article allegation by allegation if you really want to meet your cult leader's criticisms face-on. That's my advice.

A few years later, by the time Maharaji declared his intention to take his message to the West, his reputation had grown beyond the boundaries of India and began attracting the interest of many from Europe and America. But his detractors were also growing in vigor. He became the target of slander and sometimes violent demonstration by an organization that believed all gurus were unnecessary frauds. Now, over thirty years later, Maharaji has traveled to most countries of the world offering the same message.

Why are you so maddeningly vague about everything? Are you referring to the Aryan Samaj or whatever that Indian political group was called? But that was an Indian organization and that challenge arose during Maharaji's father's days, not after. Unless there's another, similar 'organization' I'm unaware of, that sentence is extremely misleading. You make it sound as if Maharaji met this opposition after he began spreading his 'teaching' outside India. That's simply untrue.

Moreover, you're forgetting to mention that Maharaji breathlessly courted the media when he first came to the west. Remember 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?' He wanted all the media attention he could get. What happened? The truth is, you don't really know. Well, guess what, Mr. Strait. The answer's readily apparent in the comic documentary, 'Lord of the Universe', a video clip of which can be found on EPO. Maharaji's last press conference was at Millenium and, if you watched the clip, you'd know why. Even a 'hate-filled ex-lover' like myself had to feel a little pity for the poor, little boy stuck in such an awkward moment. There he was, confronted by the world and for al intents and purposes lost and frightened. You can tell he was almost ready to cry. Why? Because he couldn't handle the press' extremely fair and respectful questions.

His programs have attracted audiences large and small from the widest range of cultural backgrounds and interests. His message still evokes the highest forms of genuine praise in some, while it is dismissed as unimportant or even dangerous by others.

Fine. So let's forget about the popularity contest and get into the substance. We all know that cult members like their cult leader. What does that add to the analysis? The real question is, 'what exactly is he saying and what should we make of that?' But, no, we don't expect you guys to actually examine Maharaji's words that way. He's your cult leader and such a venture is strictly taboo. You can only talk around these matters. Don't forget, only last month Maharaji ordered you to 'NEVER QUESTION THE PURITY OF THE MASTER!' Harsh, eh?

Typical criticisms are both varied and contradictory: 'He is a fraud, claiming to be something better than the rest of us.'

Nothing contradictory about that. I stand by it. Want to discuss it? When? Where?

'He should not be rich.'

The point, Mr. Strait, is that he should not be rich on account of exploiting the trust of his cult members and dipping deeply into their pockets. I understand that Maharaji has become a millionaire many times over since the early seventies. Do you have any idea how much money he has? Do you have any idea how he's gotten whatever wealth he possesses? If not, how can you even comment on this?

'He should not fly his own plane around the world.' Whatever.

'He should make the message more intelligible to the intellect.'

No, not at all. Rather, he should answer the questions and criticisms that suggest that his message is empty.

'He should have a better organization.'

None of the critics I know, including ex-premies and informed outsiders, looks at his organization as anything but an extension of the cult leader himself. We're well aware of the pathetic and cowardly attempt Maharaji's making to scapegoat his followers but that's your trick, not ours. If the organization's flawed, it's only because Maharaji's made it so.

'He should have more followers by now.'

That's merely a reasonable take on the fact that he did, after all, promise to bring peace to the world:

Therefore, dear premies, the time has come. See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. That peace which disappeared shall prevail again. It will come, and once again the world will understand. So listen to me and act accordingly. Bow down before Guru Maharaj Ji!

What happened?

'He shouldn't have followers at all.'

Correct!

'He is not a spiritual master.'

Bingo again.

'He should live the life style of a spiritual master.'

No, he should resign.

'He shouldn't live in a large house.'

The wealth issue, as I said, is all about how much he's got and how he got it. Being that we were all pressed countless times in countless ways to give him, personally, money (e.g. envelope guantlets at darshan lines), we're 'stakeholders' in his fortune. Especially, if he's NOT the Lord of the Universe as he lead us to believe. Is he?

'He shouldn't have started ashrams in the West in the '70s.'

Right.

'He shouldn't have closed those ashrams in the '80s.'

No, he should most certainly have closed them. But he should have closed them with more respect and support for the residents. Moreover, he should have spoken openly and honestly with them about why he'd earlier threatened them with eternal damnation should they ever leave, only to close them himself a few years later.

'He shouldn't have gotten married and had children.'

Whatever. Perhaps more interesting is the criticism about his longtime mistress, Monica Lewis, his other affairs and numerous attempts to fuck premie women. I mean, if you're going to spell out the criticisms, you might as well get them on the table. Similarly, I notice nothing here about Maharaji's alcoholism or drug use. Nothing about his real involvement in the Fakiranand incident, nor anything about his killing the bicyclist in India and letting someone else take the rap for it. Why not? Too hot to even mention?

'Having a family, he shouldn't travel so much.'

Big fucking deal.

'He should talk more about God.'

Now come on! Who in the world says this? Maybe you do, can't think of anyone else I know. Most people I know think he should just shut up.

'He shouldn't talk so much about God.'

See above.

'He should be more humanitarian.'

Yes.

'He should teach values.' 'He shouldn't teach values.'

I'll deal with these together. The real criticism is even more fundamental; it's that he shouldn't teach anything. He's obviously a very weak, flawed personality and not in any position to offer any leadership or wisdom in any realm.

'He should be a leader, responsible for the actions of those who listen to him.' 'He shouldn't be a leader at all.'

No, it's not either. It's more like, if he's going to be a leader anyways, which he is, he should be an honest one. That he's not. He scapegoats his followers mercilessly. YOU'll know what I'm talking about first-hand if you fuck up, won't you?

'He should state his message so it can be more easily understood.'

No, he should openly dialogue with people so that his 'message', such as it is, can be better understood and evaluated by anyone interested.

In short, he and his message should be something we can label, fit into a definite category, and get our minds around. As someone put it succinctly, 'He should walk our talk.'

Try this: he should talk in such a way that people understand him. If that means dialoguing openly, he should do it. Of course, the moment he does that, it's game over. Let me dialogue with Maharaji in public for half an hour and you'll see what I mean. Same with any informed ex-premie. Maharaji's a paper lion and you know it.

There is a new factor in the old equation of criticism - one being faced by almost all public figures - and that is a new means of delivery. The technology of the Internet makes possible the widespread distribution of false rumors and allegations by anyone who feels so inclined with a minimum standard of responsibility.

Why the bias? The internet makes possible the widespread distribution of all sorts of stuff, true or false or mixed up this way or that. As for responsiblity, hey, WS, SUE ME if you like. Can't imagine taking any more responsibility than that. But really, if I'm wrong, talk with me. Set me straight. Other than that, fuck off with this 'responsibility' shit. You're projecting.

Such critics can malign individuals and groups they hate without having to make their statements to anyone's face, or even use their real names. They can be as irresponsible as they like with minimum accountability.

The name's Jim Heller. You can call me at (250) 360-1040. You can sue me at 7-547 Herald Street, Victoria, B.C. Canada V8W 1S5. Email me at heller@bc1.com. You guys, on the other hand, who are you? What are all your names? Where can we find you? When will you talk with us?

Coupled with the principle of free speech, the Internet makes possible the spread of damaging misinformation just as it makes possible the wide dissemination of useful information. It is easy to take something that has a kernel or semblance of truth and under the guise of 'information' put it forth as 'the whole story.' In this new environment, those of us who have initiated this site feel that a response is called for. Yet, at the core of what Maharaji teaches is the premise neither that the truth of his message about the possibility of Knowledge nor the authenticity of its messenger need be a matter of conceptual belief or rational persuasion. They can be discovered only by means of direct experience and personal recognition. In short, people make up their own minds and hearts, not based on what others say for better or for worse, but on the basis of personal experience and all the powers of human understanding that give a valid basis for arriving at one's own conclusions.

If that's all true what the hell you doing with this website? Transcend, friend, before it's too late!

So if this site succeeds in the uncovering of misconceptions and misinformation whether in the name of praise or criticism, it serves a valid purpose. In fact, it may be true that much false criticism arose out of false praise. The error of each is the same - to attempt to explain or label what cannot be explained or labeled. Often, in reaction to the discomfort of 'not knowing' or not understanding, people take a fragment of truth and create from it a belief system (negative or positive) and then defend it as the whole truth.

Your consistent vagueness is tiring. Is this almost over yet? All your site is succeeding in doing is placing us ex-premies front and centre in the cult membership's minds. Thanks for that and William, I really mean that. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

We are also aware that there is nothing that gives us a special grasp of what is true nor immunity from error but our effort to be conscious and our commitment to clarity of thought. And as with all other things, those who choose to read our words will be the judge.

You want to defend Maharaji but your'e afraid to interview your 'client' to get the real facts. Cute.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:59:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim and nige
Subject: this was not the post I was criticizing.
Message:
this one was clear and well presented. let me go nd the one I was basing my commentary on. and from now on, I will highlight any posts Jim puts up that strike me as fitting into this same category of losing control and attacking the person instead of the argument. maybe this way he can work on refining his style to better persuasion.

deal?

let me go look and bring it back here.

BTW jim--
the forum went down--thats the only reason I failed to respond. didnt see it till now.
glad to oblige. comments were not made in hostility.
really.

--janet

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:21:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: ok let me explain why this one bugged me:
Message:
I took the liberty of correction for mispellings and unintentional omissions while I was ccp'ing this for commentary. hope you didn't mind.
ok. let me explain myself: you do this habitually and it weakens your presentation. and I'm on YOUR side, here.
[I deleted most of MJ's text and left your comments. further down I deleted only some of WS's text and left yours. I kept his where it was need for illustration]

----
you:'Pure balderdash, both.'
Or do you think otherwise?
me:--not what i would call specific and identifiable. you need to point out what it is he claimed and HOW it is not so. 'balderdash' does not help the other's mind to recognize what is--it's a filler word with no known substance.

Maharaji merely siezed the mike and played at daddy's game.'
'daddy' is belittling, implying babytalk. you insult the listener along with the intended target. a better expression might have been 'all children learn by imitating their parents. you have mistaken imitation for originality and worshipped it.That little child knew no more than any other child of that age'

The skepticism and harsh criticism came from outside the cult. Those inside were wrapped up in a fairly-tale existence, wherein Shri Hans' whole family was divine.
'Hardly objective.'
again a weak statement. relies on social scoffing and putting your listener in a position of inferior status, diverting the argument from the objective universal to the social immediate, instead of keeping the argument to objective delineation, for your listener to regard and consider with logic.

I'm sure that theory wasn't true. Rather, Maharaji was just adept at 'performing daddy's vaudeville routine.'
colorful but ridiculing. I myself doubt that Hans viewed it as such. He went seeking and was initiated by more than one school of study. he lived the monks life. he owned nothing and walked, for a period in his life. our villain never did any such thing. he never searched, never asked, never did without, never gave it a thought. I think Hans was sincere. I doubt our villain ever cared one way or another.

Any transcripts of Maharaji's early talks prove the point handily. There's nary an original thought. It's all hindu boilerplate. Impressive? No.
-ok.
It's no defense at all to say that Shri Hans' own cult followers started worshipping Maharaji on cue. Really, what's that? Indians love their religion, that's a fact, and they love their gurus. It matters little to say that Maharaji was so revered. So were his brothers. So was his mother. What about them?
-ok
Again, 'what is the big deal' about this? 'The kid's father trained them to give these sermons' and they did.
again- too cynical. more likely the children simply copied what everyone else around them did. how would they know of anything else? Sets the listener on the defensive and loses their attention to your truth. they will tend to reject you, rather than the object of your ridicule.
'Big fucking deal, already!'
-impatience, losing control. beginnings of dismissing the listener as not worthy of your attention. devalues them, does not invite serious exchange and consideration of your point.

This only occurred after Maharaji was annointed accordingly by his mother and the cult leadership.

'Why do you lie like this? Who do you think you're fooling?'
Lying is a charged word. Your listener may not be lying. They may be telling it as they thought the truth was. using the characterization of them lying closes the field and cuts off their valid right to explain what they thought was true. you would do better to provide what YOU have as the information, and point out how this changes the meanings of what the listener believes is so. this gives them open chance to come away from their belief and accept new realities, based on their own intelligence. It keeps respect for their desire to know the truth active.

How about Maharaji's own interest in doing so? Why else would he say things like:
-yes, good.

Again, who do you think you're fooling?
--loaded language again, creating defensiveness. alter the way you couch it. ' this seems deceptive
in the face of such realities as...' and cite the relevant facts pertinent to the subject.

New people? Only so long as they don't find EPO. I'm sure you'll one day regret 'the fact that you posted all these lies'
charged words again.better would be ' you'll regret the fact that you publicly proclaimed these things as if you were certain they were true and put your name to them. '
such wording hits closer to the universal experience of regret when one discovers that one was endorsing something that turned out to be the opposite of what one believed. being lied to and repeating it, unaware of the falsehood,isnt the same as lying in turn.

...under your own name, Mr. Strait.
' Most premies who do so, lie anonymously, either with psuedonyms, first names only or, in the case of the EV Frequently Asked Questions, unnamed entirely.'
---again, here you are dancing across the line, between casting him as the originator of the lie, versus one of those who are lied to and believe it and pass it on, not knowing they are being lied to.
leave that door open for them to come across the line and find out what was done to them and what they have then done in turn. It may not be intentional lying, for them. Not until you give them the actual facts.

... You, however, have put your own name and integrity on the line here.
'Too bad for you.'
--that's unecessary. it implies a veiled threat, while sounding pseudo-sympathetic or pitying. better to have omitted it.

Your point, if I read you right, seems to be that Maharaji was once slightly misunderstood by the media. Sorry, but if that's your example of sensationalistic lies and distortions, it isn't much. It is, in fact, an arguably accurate inference from Maharaji's own words. Beside that, though, even assuming, for argument's sake, that this was a terrible misrepresentation,
---its good, right to that point.

'so what?'
dashes their emotions if they defend their espoused.
doesn not encourage continued willingness to listen to you.
'All public figures,
[ especially, I'd imagine, those who claim, as in the quote above, to be 'the highest infestation of God' (joke!)],
get a little flack from time to time.
--your comment would be conceded without much resistance, if it were not for the double jab at the one they so dearly want to cling to. but you knew that.
Deal with[I think it would be better to use less 'in-your-face' terms, like 'Address'] the Combat article, allegation by allegation, if you really want to meet your cult leader's criticisms face-on. That's my advice.
--that was good.
'Why are you so maddeningly vague about everything?'
--believe it or not, I doubt he even knows what you mean by this outburst! He babbles in classic premiespeak. You have to actually uncloud his mind for him, by outlining the specifics he has just unconsciously blurred when he prattled on.

' Are you referring to the Aryan Samaj or whatever that Indian political group was called? But that was an Indian organization! and that challenge arose during Maharaji's father's days, not after. Unless there's another, similar 'organization'that I'm unaware of, that sentence is extremely misleading.
--he's making an oblique reference to EPO, trying to sound above it all. but we both know that. so does he.

' You make it sound as if Maharaji met this opposition after he began spreading his 'teaching' outside India. That's simply untrue.
Moreover, you're forgetting to mention that Maharaji breathlessly courted the media when he first came to the west. Remember 'Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?' He wanted all the media attention he could get. What happened? The truth is, you don't really know. Well, guess what, Mr. Strait. The answer's readily apparent in the comic documentary, 'Lord of the Universe', a video clip of which can be found on EPO. Maharaji's last press conference was at Millenium and, if you watched the clip, you'd know why. Even a 'hate-filled ex-lover' like myself had to feel a little pity for the poor, little boy, stuck in such an awkward moment: There he was, confronted by the world, and for all intents and purposes, lost, and frightened. You can tell he was almost ready to cry. Why? Because he couldn't handle the press' extremely fair and respectful questions.
--excellent. but failed to point out his intending to cast EPO in that role. wish you had.

Fine. So let's forget about the popularity contest and get into the substance. We all know that cult members like their cult leader. What does that add to the analysis? The real question is, 'what exactly is he saying? and what should we make of that?' But, no, we don't expect you guys to actually examine Maharaji's words, that way. He's your cult leader and such a venture is strictly taboo. You can only talk around these matters. Don't forget, only last month Maharaji ordered you to 'NEVER QUESTION THE PURITY OF THE MASTER!' Harsh, eh?
---yes. great.
Nothing contradictory about that. I stand by it. Want to discuss it? When? Where?
--I love when you do this. they all scurry like bugs uncovered under a rock, tripping over each other to hide behind the Big Head, or Someody Who's Designated By Him To Respond. No courage unless they feel they are part and parcel of The Group.

>'He should not be rich.'
The point, Mr. Strait, is that he should not be rich on account of exploiting the trust of his cult members and dipping deeply into their pockets. I understand that Maharaji has become a millionaire many times over since the early seventies. Do you have any idea how much money he has? Do you have any idea how he's gotten whatever wealth he possesses? If not, how can you even comment on this?
>'He should not fly his own plane around the world.'

'Whatever.'
That shows irritation and distractibility. It's not a clear response. Give it the respect of at least a complete sentence in reply, such as ' I find that to be irrelevant' in the short run, or take the time to address the wider implications of that complaint, which stem from wanting to know why he can't fly commercially like the Dalai Lama does? The use of 'whatever' is a teenage term, indicating distinterest, mind elsewhere, uncaring or fed up. the listener knows you feel their view is not worth your time.

>'He should make the message more intelligible to the intellect.'
No, not at all. Rather, he should answer the questions and criticisms that suggest that his message is empty.
-yes.
>'He should have a better organization.'
None of the critics I know, including ex-premies and informed outsiders, looks at his organization as anything but an extension of the cult leader himself. We're well aware of the pathetic and cowardly attempt Maharaji's making, to scapegoat his followers--
but that's your trick, not ours.
---this is bound to confuse them. try clearer separation of who is doing what. you say MJ scapegoats the premies, then in the same breath and sentence, say that the trick is theirs, not his,..and not ours. Keep the parties apart and name who does what. These peop arent used to using their minds normally, remember.

>'He shouldn't have followers at all.'
Correct!

>'He is not a spiritual master.'
Bingo again.

>'He should live the life style of a spiritual master.'
No, he should resign.

>'He shouldn't live in a large house.'
The wealth issue, as I said, is all about how much he's got and how he got it. Being that we were all pressed countless times in countless ways to give him, personally, money (e.g. envelope guantlets at darshan lines), we're 'stakeholders' in his fortune.

Especially, if he's NOT the Lord of the Universe as he led us to believe. Is he?
--I like the way you snare this guy in his own double talk, but he's bound to retrench in defense of his original posture. Its a bit more entrapping to clearly and unavoidably define his matrix of possible choices:
ie,
if Mj is the lord, then giving him all makes sense.
if the's the lord, he already has command of anything he needs, without needing us.
If he isnt the lord, then why are you giving him free money? Shouldnt he earn it the same way you do?
If he isnt the lord, why are you still giving him all your money as if he is?
if he isnt the lord, why did he say he is?
If he is the lord, why is he saying he isn't?
If he doesnt want to be treated as if he's the lord, then why do you still treat him that way?
---and like that.

>'He shouldn't have gotten married and had children.'

Whatever.[ see above opinion on that word]

>'Having a family, he shouldn't travel so much.'
Big fucking deal.
[same criticisms as earlier cited language.]

YOU'll know what I'm talking about first-hand if you fuck up, won't you?
---this inspires paranoia rather than opening a way for the person to exit, motivated by their new awareness. I would have kept to respectable language and foregone the profanity. In truth, acting on what he feels is NOT fucking up, and he should be endorsed for going ahead and doing it. he's a human being who can do what he deems good. it's like breaking a drone away from the borg, getting them to think and act for themselves again.

Maharaji's a paper lion and you know it.
--he probably doesn't.

>>Other than that, fuck off with this 'responsibility' shit. You're projecting.
--gratuitous profanity, unneeded.

'So if this site succeeds in the uncovering of misconceptions and misinformation, whether in the name of praise or criticism, it serves a valid purpose.
In fact, it may be true that much false criticism arose out of false praise.
The error of each is the same - to attempt to explain or label what cannot be explained or labeled.
Often, in reaction to the discomfort of 'not knowing' or not understanding, people take a fragment of truth and create from it a belief system (negative or positive) and then defend it as the whole truth.

>'Your consistent vagueness is tiring. Is this almost over yet?
- oh hell, Jim--you should have taken each of those statements individually. they're rich with admission, confession and the beginnings of facing the truth. About the worst line is the ' error of each' line, and that one you can lambaste. The others deserved seizing upon and being used right back at them. They're weakening. It shows, right there. and you were looking at the clock!

We are also aware that
there is nothing that gives us a special grasp of what is true
--[??????}you blew this one. there it is

nor immunity from error but our effort to be conscious and
>our commitment to clarity of thought.
--here's another one you overlooked.

there--I hope you can take some kind of improvement from this. It probably seems piddling and minor to you, but it makes a difference. Jim Sanders makes his points without resorting to the devices you all too often fall into. you can learn from reading his stuff.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:04:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: What the fuck?????
Message:
What kind of joke is this, Janet? First, you say this wasn't the post you criticized:

this one was clear and well presented. let me go nd [sic] the one I was basing my commentary on.

Then, when you see that it actually was, you go through this rambling, verbose and dare I say pompous effort to pick it all apart! Are you crazy?

Janet, you've just proven how completely arbitrary your criticisms are. Based on your concession above, you owe me an apology. Not that I expect it.

I'm not going to bother responding in detail to your insults save one:

He became the target of slander and sometimes violent demonstration by an organization that believed all gurus were unnecessary frauds.

was hardly about EPO. In your zeal to criticize me you've forgotten to think straight.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:32:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: BTW, did I tell you to fuck off, yet?
Message:
I will highlight any posts Jim puts up that strike me as fitting into this same category of losing control and attacking the person instead of the argument. maybe this way he can work on refining his style to better persuasion.
deal?

Up yours, sweetheart.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:25:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Sorry, Janet, but it was indeed this post
Message:
Check the inactive list. This was the only post of mine in the thread which I started as 'My reply to WS (from Pia's site 'staff'. Your comments followed.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:26:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In fact, here's what you said
Message:
on the whole when you do one of these, i am drawn in by your willingness to address the other pwerson's oversights, point by point. however, you must be conscious that you yourself often slip and resort to personal defamation when you grow irritated and fed up with the other person's density. You've got to work on that, Jim. It detracts from an otherwise erudite and eminently intelligent invitation to sanity and clarity.
i would remind you, in all good faith, to take a moment out, at those times, and air out, cool down and come back with fresh clarity before you continue. it is far stronger to keep your discussion trained on the immediate and material facts, and useful examination of them, than to degenerate into profanity and irrelevant personal accusations or schoolyard namecalling. take the time with yourself to practice Not Indulging in that impulse when you recognize it rising in you. You'll be a better lawyer and a better debater for it.
generally, individuals reading your presentation can focus on your arguments with respect to the facts in an impersonal and clear way, and can follow and agree with the sense of them, but as soon as you give way to the temptation to belittle the person opposite you , rather than address the subject, you lose the respect and the endorsement of your audience. people can change their stances and their beliefs, but not who they are.
arguments stand on their own merits, irrespective of who supports them. they stand apart from any individual proposing them or opposing them. the people can change sides, but the argument remains in the center.

if you change your focus, from the argument, to attacking the essence of the person you are taking issue with, you are therefore asking your audience to make that change with you, and many will not do that, for it is not relevant to the discussion, and you forfeit whatever progress you were making with convincing your audience to see the issue as you see it.

i point this out to you in genuine desire to help you improve your ability, and in genuine admiration for what you do well at the present. for the most part, you have the makings of great talent. but like the singer who loses their breath, halfway through the song, you need more practice at your techniques before you will display the full potential you are capable of reaching.
I have full faith that it's in you.

i guess this is why they call it 'practicing' law.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:44:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Actually Janet I thought your post to Jim silly
Message:
and show-offy and stopped reading it after the second paragraph because your tone of voice was laughably pompous and patronizing. Of course you may have been joking but it went on for too long to be a spoof. I just figured you were in one of your queen for the day quadruple Leo fits of vanity and regality.

Sure Jim's got faults but to criticize his writing is a bit dumb. He's good. So are you. But not in the same way. You two could not be more different if you tried. Maybe you were just trying to pick a fight like I did with him once only to realize how far off the mark and silly I was.

Time to take out your own garbage, Your Highness.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:06:38 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: thanks Pat- just what I was about to say nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:02:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hey can I change that? ***BEST OF FORUM***, Pat
Message:
Just kidding but, really, don't you think this ***BEST OF FORUM*** thing is a bit much?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:40:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim and janet
Subject: ***SILLIEST OF FORUM*** DING DING DING Round ???
Message:
Hi Jim and janet,

Kiss and make up, come on. As Pat said, you both are good writers but different. O boy, you two are different!

I wouldn't want to spend time arguing about styles, semantics, appropriateness of writing on F5. Especially comments to Pia. Jeezum Crow! I'm sure you don't say ''FUCK YOU'' in your legal briefs, oral arguments, motions to suppress (LOL), or whatever it is you do in your particular field of law.

Jim, I am also getting a hoot out of all the ***BEST OFs*** here, it seems to be happening in every thread. (Although there are many worthy posts to be sure).

Janet, you're beating a dead horse on this one. I appreciate most of your posts here...this issue is moot, IMO...you lost the argument with your last tome. Still love you, though...:)

I've been mostly reading for the past weeks, but wanted to put my 2cents in on this one.

Get back to work calling Maharaji the FUCK HEAD that he is!!!

Much love,
Cynth


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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:18:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ***SILLIEST OF FORUM*** DING DING DING Round ???
Message:
Cynth,

Agree with all you say except the first part. Please don't characterize this as some sort of fight between tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum. I hate it when people do that. This is Janet arbitrarily trying to get a rise out of me and me trying to swat her away. The option was to ignore her but you know me. :)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:07:27 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: ***Raunchiest Of Forum - Jim/Janet Kissing???***nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:05:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***, yes - embarassing, Jim.
Message:
I agree but resist saying so when applied to my posts lest it sound like false modesty. You notice I don't hand out that laurel too often if ever.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:09:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Is that ***BEST OF FORUM*** mine or yours?
Message:
Sorry, I'm getting confused here. I mean, your comment was most definitely a ***BEST OF FORUM***, I just wasn't sure if you were praising me or referencing my praise of you.

Anyway, all the best ....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:07:43 (GMT)
From: PatC the Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, no, it was YOURS. It's bigger than mine
Message:
Now can I go back to being good cop?

Best to you too, snookie.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 09:25:01 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC the Fat Fag
Subject: ***Worst Of Forum*** nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 00:50:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Would that it were just a joke, Pat -- sigh (nt)
Message:
gggggggg
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:07:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Some of the best jokes are told by
Message:
people who don't even realize they're being funny.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:42:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK Jim, whether or nor Janet did 'diss' you -
Message:
can't you take on board her observation that you DO have a tendency to:

' resort to personal defamation when you grow irritated and fed up with the other person's density.
You've got to work on that, Jim. It detracts from an otherwise erudite and eminently intelligent invitation to sanity and clarity.'


Gotta go now. Sorry, the caretaker's shaking his keys at me ...

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:07:20 (GMT)
From: it-IS-so
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: update
Message:
Pia am back.

I've added these 2 pages, not complete yet and not linked to the main page. Have a look and tell me what you think. The form page works, so fell free to tell me what you had for breakfast and how much you hate washing the dog:)

After pressing the 'Submit: button the from will use your e-mail to send the info but the page will remain. So don't sit staring at the screen waiting for something to happen. You will grow old:)

feedback form

who are we?


I made the 'is' very 'isy' and large as requested. The main page is at

To Pia

If anyone is interested in 'participating' in this project please tell me. you will be doing a great service to humanity.

I've had enough tonight. See you all tomorrow and happy titing.

Salam

p.s. what was shroms name?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 07:44:43 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: Nigel Longhurst, Liverpool.
Message:
But who is 'Moldy Rap'..?!
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 13:15:05 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Moldy Rap is my artist's persona (nt)!
Message:


Don't forget the shopping listxxxxx CU later xxxx%^&***!!!!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 01:30:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: what's this riot all about
Message:
just woken up. Everyone is scrambling to get in.

Well I ran out of space for names, so I truncated a bit. Sorry for the ones I missesd, gonna have to come up with a trick to fit everyone in.Sheesh.

Going for coffe, back later.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:28:39 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: am back
Message:
and am out. got a big test tomorrow. I have read all your replies and will consider everything said. Francisca, I sure need a proof reader, you've seen my spelling. Selene I will get in touch with you by e-mail. Kelly, what are you in for.

As you can all see the site is getting built as I go. Am also posting updates to make certain that it will look the way that everyone (democracy is a bitch) wants it. There is still a lot of work to do wihich I hope to be able to contimue after tomorrow.

For those that sent me feedback by the secret method that we don't want to talk about because EV is very interested in what is happening, I want to say thank you, especiall to janet,

Will keep you all updated,

In the mean time, lets kick some fat guru ass.

Love you all

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 15:07:53 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam, just so you know
Message:
Brian and I didn't start ex-premie.org! We took over responsibility for maintaining the site in January of 1998.

You really do need a proofreader - otherwise, I kinda like it :).

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:12:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Katie H
Subject: Wooops
Message:
bugger.

Will fix. Where is the history page. Or never mind I'll check the main page and find it. Thanks for telling me.

I think am adopting Francesca. Now ye'er that girl, ya better e-mail me.

Salam

p.s. does a proof reader checks for the mistakes or correctness of information?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:09:50 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Proof reader vs fact checker
Message:
Hey Salam -
A proof reader corrects mistakes in spelling, grammar, and punctuation. An fact checker corrects mistakes in content.

Hope this helps -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:19:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Proof reader vs fact checker
Message:
Great.

Who wants to volunteer for facts checker :)

I know, how about you?

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 13:03:55 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, I already have two full-time jobs!
Message:
And I really can't volunteer to do more. But I would be happy to answer any questions you might have about the site, etc.
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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:19:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: But this is 'Participation' my dear
Message:
and it is part of the ISSGPT [it is so global participation team].

Just kidding. I know you're busy. it will come together eventually.

You think I've been too hard on Pia? We have a Mr. William complaining.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:24:42 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: update
Message:
Salam,

You can add my name, Deborah Rose

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:44:02 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: Hey, what about me?
Message:
John Brauns
Latvia
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:31:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: I'll help if I can
Message:
You use all those GUI tools I know nothing about but I can try and I can write, based on time demands from work. God I should never have let them know I had a brain left.
Thank you Salam.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:23:43 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: it-IS-so
Subject: Count me in!
Message:
Hey Salam,
Count me in!
Kelly, or Karen S Ringrose.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 21:04:54 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: My full name is Francesca Reitano -- go for it n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:58:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: My full name is Patrick Delano Conlon aka Thelma
Message:
THE THUNDERSTEALING BITCH
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:44:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: Salam....Please Add My Name!!!!
Message:
You hereby have my permission!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:46:38 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam...that's Cynthia J. Gracie....
Message:
I have nothing to hide!

Love you!
Cynth

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:39:34 (GMT)
From: Silvia Sommer- Michigan-
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: Gret Salam!!
Message:
I just popped in for few minutes. Expect soon my feedback!

Good work. I love you!

silvia

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:13:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: Brilliant, Salam. Use my full name, please
Message:
I've got nothing to hide. Thank you for the great job.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:51:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: update
Message:
One more thing:

It might be good to have a section for premie responses, as well as our responses. Of course, you can edit the premie responses just like Pia does. And then you can ask visitors to the site to compare.

You might also want to Joe, Jim, Nige, Gary or others to do their great point-by-point refutations on some of the premie responses, and/or a section for point-by-point refutation of some of M's recent satsangs.

A little at a time of course!

love,f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:46:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: it-IS-so
Subject: update
Message:
I could proofread. Also some names to add that are on FV:
Chuck S.
Pat C.
Donner
Cynthia (forget, she may already be there)

Some of us may be fine with you using our full names.

Eventually you may want links. Like when you mention the Journeys, that could be linked to the Journeys page on EPO.
When you mention documentation on M that was not know before, you might want to say something more like information about Maharaji that is unknown to many, and the existence of which is often denied by Elan Vital, Maharaji and his followers. Then you could have a link on the word information or something to the EPO white papers. That sort of thing.

Also, if someone looks at the URL, since it is off the Rawatsucks site, that term may turn off the more gentlehearted (and fuzzbrained) current followers or fence-sitters, and may appear vindictive to those of prudish Victorian sensitibities. (I on the other hand, find it extremely descriptive!) People who don't want to delve into Pandora's box may use any sign of despising Rawat as an excuse that we are hate-mongers and not to be believed. That is an incredibly shallow and specious argument, because anger and hate are definitely separate emotions. (I do not anyone, as far as I know, but I do get angry with people!!!) And calling a phony a phony is a fact or an observation, not hate.

I know this is just a start. Good work!

best wishes, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:18:54 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: it IS so
Subject: update
Message:
feel free to add my name: Bob, or Bob Schmitz if you like.

(but it is no high priority, I won't see my attorney tomorrow yet)

Bob, your brother in hate....

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:06:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: dwindling audiences for ... you know who
Message:
Here's a sign of the times of the recent (1st June 2001) Barcelona event.

[© 2000 Visions International - used without permission, but if it's good/bad enough for the EV newsletter page, it's good/bad enough for a wider audience, - that's my line, and I'm sticking to it]

.
.
.

How many empty seats can you spot?
.
.
.

'... and unto those that hath not, it shall be taken away'
.
.
.
.
.
(PS - forgive the wretched banner ad at the top, which says 'Free to try'. - As far as M and EV are concerned, the real question people should ask themselves is: how free are we to walk away from the demands of gratitude that he foists on his prey?)

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:50:15 (GMT)
From: Simon Satsang
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Don't you people realise
Message:
all those 'empty' seats are taken by invisible aliens from other planets. Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, after all.

I mean, if only that number of people came to see Maharaji at a well publicised event in a major European city, he really would be in trouble.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:31:44 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Simon Satsang
Subject: You JOKING??? - that's what they said in '73
Message:
after the Houston Millennium bash (thinks - or was it before?)

.
.

Simon, your thought for the day:

.

Power corrupts;
Absolute power corrupts absolutely;
God is all-powerful.
Draw your own conclusions.

.
.
.

OK, have another on the house:

'You can't argue with concepts. You have to claim
Dogma, and therefore leave no room for rational thought.'

.
.
.
One more? Ok, if you insist -

.

'Maharaji wanted to raise money for his 'church' and being told that there was a fortune to be made in horse racing, decided to purchase a horse and enter him in the races.

However, at the local auction, the going price for horses was so steep that he ended up buying a donkey instead. He figured that since he had it,he might as well go ahead and enter it in the races. To his surprise the donkey came in third. The next day, the Racing Form carried the headline 'Maharaji's Ass Shows.'

Maharaji was so pleased with his donkey that he entered it in the races again , and this time it won. The Form read 'Maharaji's Ass Out in Front'.

Maharaji was so upset with this kind of publicity that he decided not to enter the donkey in another race. The newspaper printed the headline 'Maharaji Scratches His Ass.'

This was just too much for the poor guy and he decided to get rid of the animal.

So he gave it to his wife.

The headline the next day read 'Maharaji's Wife Has Best Ass in Town.'

He fainted. He informed his wife that she would have to
dispose of the donkey. She finally found a farmer who was willing to buy it for $10.00 . The paper stated - 'Maharaji's Wife Peddles Ass For Ten Bucks.'

.
.
.
Enough for today?

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: Not just 'unique visitors' now it's 'unique events
Message:
To be precise (from EV's 'back-against-the-wall' mailing):

(John McClean -the new National Propagation Contact)...

I had the great privilege to hear Maharaji speak in Versailles and Barcelona. Such wonderful and unique events!! Nottingham is going to be very special indeed.

According to EV over one thousand guests attended Maharaji's public address in Barcelona

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: unique events
Message:
Wow that IS a low attendance! It probably got opened up for most European premies, and discounted (???) Historically the programs in a tour became progressively bigger, because the fired-up premies usually maxed out their credit cards to get a refill.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:13:52 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: dwindling audiences for ... you know who
Message:
I can see front row seats empty. Looks like the rich premies were too busy somewhere else.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Why did some of us stick with M and K so long?
Message:
I know three types of longterm premies in the west: 1) those who have a title or some status in the cult or a paying position and who have something material to lose by leaving; 2) those who have reaped some sort of benefit from K and are still under the impression that it is connected with M; 3) those who have seldom meditated but cling to M ''as a talisman to keep in their pockets'' as Wolfie said.

This last group is the largest. They go to see M whenever he comes to town but have never gotten involved in the cult or participated in synchronized service. They have always distrusted DLM/EV, instructors and have never given any money. They mostly still smoke pot and are New Age flakes or counter-culture crusties. They are also ironically his most vehement defenders. There are thousands of them in San Francisco.

I have nothing to say to them or to the first group of career cultists. But I am friends with many premies who enjoy K yet still attribute its effectivness to M. These are the people who are bankrolling the cult with their modest but regular donations and who are keeping the local video programs going. They also do not like EV but send money to M to help spread peace and love.

Most of these people are good, kind, loving and generous. These are probably the main market targeted by the satellite broadcasts. They are not on the whole a deep-thinking bunch and have a sentimental and nostalgic attachment to M. There are about 5,000 in USA and a similar number in Europe.

I am now in the process of trying to gently tell these friends that they are trapped in a cult which has robbed them of their moral integrity, intellectual independence and emotional maturity. So here goes. Sorry fellas, I feel a sermon coming on.

The question I am most frequently asked by my longterm premie friends is: ''Are you sure K works without M, ie...the master?''

That is nearly always the first question posed to me in response to my telling them that I have decided to walk away from Guru Prempal Rawat for good. I left him a couple of times before but had never really gotten him completely out of my system. This time I have because it is a decision based on practicality and not emotion as was the case the other two times that I turned against him. This time my friends cannot say to me that I am just upset because they can see I am not. I am simply finished with guru worship.

This is my answer to my friends as well as other premies whom I know in South Africa, Britain, Australia, Germany, El Salvador and the US. I hope some of you are reading this because I don't have all your email addresses.

Us longterm premies stuck it out so long because we enjoy the love and peace which we feel in meditation. Devotion to M seems to be very much part of this as supposedly a fondness for the guru makes practice light and easy and puts you in touch with your feelings of selfless love. As Rawat Senior said: ''Knowledge without love is dry and love without Knowledge is blind.'' Affection for the guru is the whole point of Rawatism. M has never been a meditation teacher. He has always been peddling bhakti-guruism. I knew that from the beginning and tolerated the messianic megalomania as Hindu hyperbole. I also knew I was in a cult but I rationalized it so I can't be angry.

Most of us longterm premies originally got our jollies from satsang and darshan in the first ten years. Meditation was often a struggle and our lives were a rollercoaster ride of guru bliss followed by post darshan blues. But eventually meditation started kicking in and some of us even finally began to see that we got more staying at home and doing it on our own than going to M's events. So why did we stick with Rev Rawat? I stuck with him and went back to him three times because of fear and guilt.

This is the way I used to think about it. (I don't think like this anymore.) The goal of K is to cease to exist as an individual and merge your will-power with god - nirvana (no identity, no ego.) You cannot do this on your own. It must be done to you otherwise you are still exercising your will-power. Rawat says this often. ''You are like a fly caught in a spider web. The more you struggle to get free the more entangled you become. The Master comes and gently untangles you and lifts you out of that web and sets you free.'' (Jokey aside: what he doesn't mention is that he has to rip your wings off and leave them stuck in that sticky web in order to save you.) I believed that, if I left the guru, I would be trapped in some endless loop of ego-tripping and self-delusion.

I used to think that god is love and that selfless love is the way to merge with god. Saints like Mother Theresa did it through taking care of the poor. I thought Knowledge was better than that. Like the old saying: ''Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.'' I thought that K was the answer; that happiness and a reall appreciation for life was the solution to all the problems in the world. If everyone had peace of mind then the world would be at peace and we would all be brothers and sisters under the benevolent gaze of the Master.

Now I know there is no benevolent master and no longer know what K is. I still enjoy meditating but as a yoga mental health exercise, to relax and refresh myself, to become clear, strong, patient and generous and get enough energy to feel goodwill and warm loving. I also think that this can be achieved in as many different ways as there are people.

The four techs are not magical or mystical. I have often had the sneaking suspicion that other people don't even need to do it because they are not as nuts as I am. Most people I know have not done as many drugs or experimented with as many weird relationships or done as many crazy things as I have and are on the whole saner, simpler and more sensible than I am.

Anyway, the main point of this post is to answer the question, ''Why did some of us stick it out so long?'' And the answer is simple: We got something out of it and attributed it to the CEO of Rawat Inc. or the ''executive friend of EV'' or ''You Know Who.''

Each of us has to extract ourselves from the spider-web of gurujism in our own way and in our own time. Fear holds some and sentiment holds others. Yes, I would still like to find the ultimate love but I won't get my tits in a tangle about it and I would rather keep my moral integrity, intellectual independence and emotional maturity intact and not compromise it by an association with a seriously flawed person like Rev Rawat.

But the biggest thing is that gurujism does not work unless you are totally enamored of your guru and believe in him and trust and respect him. Well, I am no longer enamored of the guru and find him unbelievable and untrustworthy. Since washing that man right out of my hair, I've been feeling stronger, happier, more loving and honest and cleaner than I ever have since cutting the guru out of my life. I now have so much more fun with meditation without the fear or guilt that I don't give a damn whether I find god or immortality. Gurus are preachers of revivalism yoga. Who the hell needs preachers? Only those who have no self-motivation.

So, I don't know what K is or if there is a god and I don't care. As far as I know K was and is different things to different people. But I do know who is Guru Maharaji. He is Prempal Rawat the head of a money-making religious trip based on fear and guilt. And I don't hate him. I never knew him and now have no desire to ever get to know him. And I don't know if K works without M. I'm not interested in Rev Strangelove's K anymore and feel fine with what I've got.

I still treasure love above all else but, instead of trying to love an imaginary friend, I now love my real friends and I'll get high with a little help from them. I've gone back to my old egalitarian and democratic hippie roots. No more gods, gurus, lords and masters for me.

And, if my friends think I'm onto something nice and want to know about it, I'll show them in private, between consenting adults as it always should have been. But Rev Rawat would not have made money being an invisible guru stuck in a House in Golders Green showing a handful of friends who then showed their friends etc. So he sent people out to ''propagate.'' Yuk! Sounds like those pods in that alien movie. That was his first mistake and one that he can never rectify even if he wanted to which I doubt because there is a very real possibility that he thinks he really is the messiah. Crazy deluded man.

PS I just got this in an email from the Chief Church Lady of A---.

The message will get through

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Miami Beach, 8th May 1998

Wake up in the morning and say, ''Thank you. Thank you for this life, thank you for this moment, thank you for letting me be here.''

Don't you worry about who's listening. Because the one you are thanking is a lot closer to you than you think.

That which you really want to thank - could it possibly be put in houses of stone? Not appropriate. Could it be put in houses of wood? Not appropriate.

It can only be placed in that one house which will not burn, where no thief can enter, no bars are needed, no locks are needed, and that is your heart.

You can whisper it and you will be heard, it doesn't have to be loud. You don't even have to move your lips, the message will get through.

The fact that it was sent to me to ''remind me to be grateful'' did not annoy me nearly as much as the words of Rev Rawat did. Again the absolute inane blather but blather spiked with a dangerous and negative and deluded philosophy - the concept that there is a invisible ghost in ''your heart'' that you can have a conversation with and pray to.

If I wasn't nuts before I met Rawat I surely had a good enough reason to go nuts afterwards with such baloney as having a dual personality stuck in my body - the inner Maharaji. Actually that invisible inner M ghost in my machine was not difficult to exorcise. All I said was ''Out damned spot'' and it was gone just like the tooth fairy, Santa and other imaginary beings. Rawat is a primitive, anachronistic and dangerous airhead.

If I don't push the submit button soon I'll probably say more than I should. Sorry it's such a long post. I must have had FV withdrawal syndrome.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: post darshan blues
Message:
Hi Pat,

good stuff to think about, specially the three different typs of premies and most special the post darshan blues......I wondered so many times. Once I wanted to live my life, like everyday is a part of standing in the darshan line, I had wished that my whole life is like walking in the darshanline. And I had a special prayer for M that nearly killed my life: 'Oh my GM, please never let my life be too good, that I forget to remember Holy Name'. Oh God it nearly worked! I wonder, where I've got this from?

ciao.......wolfie

P.S. no need to worry about me, I don't have stupid prayers anymore!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:02:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: post darshan blues - ouch
Message:
I wonder where we got all that guilt and fear from? I never actually prayed for adversity but when it came it was always by His Grace and had been sent to make me remember Holy Name. Rawat was full of fear and superstition and still is but not so much. However he still preaches negative thoughts. No wonder so many premies are crazy. Well we're out of it and I have never felt better. Hope you are too.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:25:06 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Invisible Ghost = Omnipresent Maharaji
Message:
Beautiful essay, Patrick!

When you say the concept that there is a invisible ghost in ''your heart'' that you can have a conversation with and pray to. . . . Rev. Rawat is referring to himself, not just some disembodied power. He really believes he is omnipresent (though how he can thoroughly believe it since he ISN'T omnipresent and doesn't actually hear people's prayers might be an interesting subject of discussion) -- more importantly, his whole trip hinges on having you, (the premie), believe it. And the sad thing is that most long-term premies actually do believe it still, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I know I did when I was a premie. It is the cornerstone of the whole entire house of cards. Remove that simple belief and the whole mirage comes crashing down, you really begin to see him for the deluded and misguided (and dangerous) fool that he really is.

It's always been a mystery to me how he manages to so thoroughly snowball so many for so long. Hopefully EPO will be a wake-up bell for a lot of people.

Again, great post, and I'll be e-mailing you soon.
Love,
Joy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:14:42 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: WOW Pat ! -yes yes yes - thanks nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:44:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** turn this into your Journey n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:17:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes.
Message:
But I've got so many bits and pieces filed under that name I'll have to put it on a separate site and just have as my Journey on EPO: ''Joined the cult 4/1/73 and left cult 1/1/01'' and a link to the rest.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:35:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes.
Message:
I was thinking of the same thing. Perhaps mining for different topics, cleaning up the posts and having a topic list to different pieces of it. With mine, I first have to decide what's 'of the moment' and what is boring as hell.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:18:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: A lot of us have got a book about this inside us
Message:
It's also a matter of finding the time to do it. Hopefully a decent editorial friend will step up to the plate to slash the BS.
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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:17:42 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Why did some of us stick with M and K so long?
Message:
great post Pat, full of answers and substance from only through which a man of experience and integrity could contribute.

You mentioned many of the reasons that kept me enslaved for 29 years to the cult and mostly to maserati himself. On top of what you already mentioned I think I stayed around out of ignorance. I just did not know for sure that I had other spiritual options. It turns out that no-one needs options, who I am today, free from the constraints and dogma of the maserati religion is more than enough in of itself. But I did not know of that freedom back then, thanks to the information gleaned from the EPO and the worldwide web it confirmed that there was much more going on in the realm of m and the spiritual hoax perpetrated by him and others.

I had buried questions but I had no proof that there was anything better out there that I could trust with my all of my heart like I had with the maserati. I admit it; I bought the juju story hook line and sinker, I was a real zealot, in retrospect a spritual egotist actually. Even though I was not the plugged in company man or church lady type, I recruited newcomers tirelessly right up to the end.

I also let myself believe that I was one of the chosen ones, that I had something and someone in my life which was perfect and special and that I/it was above and beyond reproach at that level. Very smug, and a good salesman, I never went to a program without bringing a quest. I thought I was doing a divine service, propagating knowledge, leading lambs to slaughter was more like it. I have a lot of amends to make.

Given that strong an identity with the whole business, I consider myself lucky to have gotten out as quickly as I did with a few brain cells still in tact.

Today, I trust my own instincts, my own heart and I am finding like you noted in your post a wealth of knowledge and peace within, with no strings attached

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:06:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Wow, you were sure able to do ...
Message:
... a complete 180. Good for you!!!

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: do you remember...
Message:
The thing maserati said about how a clever person need only to hear the truth one time and he recognizes it and walks towards it. Now a stupid person, you have to tell him many times over and over and demonstrate where to put each foot, first move the right one now the left one etc.

I got the truth about maserati right around the first time I arrived here, and I did not waste much precious time trying to gloss over the facts and get on with my life.

I guess that makes me a very clever person indeed... right maserati? If you or one of yours is reading this ....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:34:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I wish I could say that ignorance kept me in cult
Message:
It was a sort of ignorance but not of gurujism or Hinduism or yoga. I knew all about those. Somewhere along the line though I started thinking of Guru Maserati as the Big Cheese, the one and only and not just one of many. Oops terrible mistake that.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:41:57 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ignorance is consciousness of bliss,
Message:
I guess ignorance goes to buying into the big cheese theory. That is the way I saw it too Pat, that I was hooked up with the big kahuana and I was on the inside track to enlightenment.

The statement 'ignorance is bliss' becomes all very clear to me at this point.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Yeah the spiritual arrogance
Message:
... tied right into my own. I hated religions, so I got snookered into the Maha religion by the meeting of his own fuzzy logic and some of my own.

From rejecting Catholicism, to being very 'Catholic' i.e., one holy, Catholic, apolstolic church, about M and K. I caught myself at this game in 1982 -- the beginnings of the thinking process that got me out of the cult. In fact, I remember almost exactly where I was walking in Golden Gate park and who I was talking to when that little epiphany occurred to me. Leave no room for doubt in your mind. Don't explore other meditations, techniques, or simply other ways of looking at the universe, my life, etc. I saw the trap door, and it was open.

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:38:40 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Wonderful, Pat...***A MUST READ***
Message:
Hi Pat,

What a wise, kind, articulate post...I won't quote you because everyone must read it!

I made a huge investment of love in Maharaji. Pat, I've been having a stressful time in my life (stupid circumstances that have interferred with my peace)! All that you wrote describes the substance of my current despair.

I long ago disposed of loving him. I threw him out of my heart. It's a worthless endeavor, to love him--he doesn't even know me! and I'm too old to hang onto such a loser. I always loved to pray to him (yes, I admit it, I always have prayed to goomraji--until the past couple of years).

That's a weird thing for me still. Prayer. Does a human need to pray? It is taught? I don't know. Instead I pray to myself, my heart, my core. I look to myself for strength to live in this nutty world, as I keep my eyes on ''EXIT'' sign on the door out of Maharaji's World.

Thanks so much,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:21:44 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: mulley@oninet.pt
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynth - I loved this bit - me too
Message:
'INSTEAD I PRAY TO MYSELF; MY HEART ,MY CORE. I LOOK TO MYSELF FOR STRENGTH TO LIVE IN THIS NUTTY WORLD.....'

Best wishes and support to you ,

Steve Mulley

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:31:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Pray means to ask for help so why not ask?
Message:
I don't know if you want to talk about it here or should I email you? My experience has been that it's always best to ask for help from real living people rather than ideas of some...what.....? But also you have piqued my curiosity with this: ''All that you wrote describes the substance of my current despair.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:26 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pray means to ask for help so why not ask?
Message:
Hi Pat,

My current despair has arisen from the death of my friend last April. Tom and I were also her tenants for 14 years in a beautiful old house, a duplex, in Warren Village. After her death, her daughter gave us 2 months to vacate, not for any ''cause'' on our part, just because she wants us out. Very cold.

There are a lot of complicating issues, but stress has seemed to take hold of our lives. That's it.

My main feeling of despair is the issue of prayer, because for so many years I prayed to goob. All around me, family and friends keep telling me to surrender it, like ''give it up to your higher power.'' It makes me physically ill to hear that, because they don't understand my current dilemma regarding my own spirituality. That's why I asked if humans do need to pray or is it just a juju thing that's been made up from the beginning of human's existence on earth?

You're right about asking real live people for help. We have people looking for places for us to live in a 50 mile radius. It's a dead market right now in my area, however.

The other result of the stress on me is my propensity to dissociate. This alone is causing some problems (for me), so it's been a struggle. I know it's a temporary life circumstance that's triggering this emotional upheaval and certainly isn't the worst I've experienced in 47 years! I just can't wait for the knot in my stomach to go away.

I have only been reading the forum instead of posting. It's not that I need a rest from F5 at all; rather it's been difficult for me to concentrate enough to post.

Thanks for your concern, Pat...I'm sending you a big hug...
I shall survive...always have
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:14:34 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I know you'll survive, Cynthia
Message:
Well, you just touched a raw nerve for me - my insecurity about not having total control over my home territory. Please think about begging, borrowing or stealing in order to buy a home. It is what solved that problem for me. I know that a mortgage is not much more than a long lease but it gives control. I'd rather live in my own hovel than fancy rented digs.

As for prayer. When I was very sick in the 80s I turned to affirmations inspite of having a terrible prejudice against new age ideas. Eventually I found my own affirmations and my own words to to express them. And they work for me.

I hardly ever do them anymore but, in the depths of my despair they helped me. It is mostly about being optimistic and tapping into your strength instead of battling with your weakness and pessimism. If you need any tips on this Chuck and I have both studied it, him more than me.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:45:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know you'll survive, Cynthia
Message:
I completely forgot about affirmations. I used them many times when figuring out this adled mind of mine.

Thanks, Pat. BTW, we're looking at both options in the housing department.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:06:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Good for you - go for it ............. OT
Message:
The other nice thing about owning is that the ''rent'' is tax deductible and, when it comes time to retire, you do a reverse mortgage. Real estate is money in the bank and a lot safer than the stock market.

Yes, the power of positive thinking works as long as it is practical and not fantastical. My affirmations are mostly to do with my attitude. Thinking about all the good things I have seems to dispel the blues. I never knew how negative and pessimistic I was until I started practicing positive thinking.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:27:32 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: prayer
Message:
youy touch on something here Cynthia. I have had problems with prayers even before k. 28 years ago. I dont know if there is anybody out there anyway, can only pray for my kids. It has partially to do with my doubt that my prayer , out of a limited view, would make any difference in the eternal cosmic plan, multidimensional, in which time , space , possibilities, alternate universes and eternetieS are already (growing to??) be interwoven are in erxesitenzz??
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