Sir Dave -:- Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:36:00 (GMT)

__ cq -:- check these two links -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 16:52:22 (GMT)

__ Giggles -:- Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 14:04:57 (GMT)

__ Ian Dury -:- What we do know -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:11:29 (GMT)

__ __ Mr. williams -:- What we do know -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:35:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- You're Mistaken -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 15:16:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- He lives on PCH. -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 21:46:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ND, 3rd Eye -:- His biz may be on PCH, but not his home...nt -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 14:19:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- What's incorrect about JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:56:45 (GMT)

__ __ G -:- What we do know -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:12:11 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS reads FRENCH? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 02:30:06 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- or is JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS a woman? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:38:15 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:36:53 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:48:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS est un homme francais.... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:50:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS est un homme francais.... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:55:00 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS does not like his name here -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:39:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Pourquoi J-M BONTHOUS n'aime pas son nom ici? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 22:50:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- OK I won't mention JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:43:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Also GLEN WHITTAKER does not like his name here -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:54:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Not to mention JOHN MARR... very big PAM! -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:54:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Its going to be a matter of some pleasure for them -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:50:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- John Marr - lovely(if misguided) guy -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:58:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Who is JOHN MARR... the very big PAM!..nt -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:38:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- OK I'll not mention GLEN WHITTAKER -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:05:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS and GLEN WHITTAKER don't like -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:11:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER dont like -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:53:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS, GLEN WHITTAKER dont like -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:48:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- W.B .STORES Ltd ..EV (UK) no likeee (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:29:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- W.B .STORES Ltd. EV (UK) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:57:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- W.B .STORES Ltd. EV (UK) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:32:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Elan Vital Ltd. -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 02:19:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHUOS but now we still -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:27:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHUOS but now we still -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:40:08 (GMT)

Jim -:- Maharaji can't help but talk about us now -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:41:52 (GMT)

__ Steve M -:- 30 fucking years -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:32:58 (GMT)

__ Moldy -:- phrzzz,,,splutter,7e8w76..gag and berf...!!! -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:28:46 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Maharaji can't help but talk about us now -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:05:21 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- I read one line and wet myself!!!! -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:43:30 (GMT)

Jim -:- My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:25:15 (GMT)

__ karen -:- My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:30:47 (GMT)

__ Mr. Williams -:- My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:51:57 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 00:17:13 (GMT)

__ __ JohnT -:- No, not cool -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:10:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- No, not cool - just another frigid widget (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 20:11:59 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Do you accept Mr.Rawat is a liar? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:40:55 (GMT)

__ Mr. Mind -:- Fear Not -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:41:41 (GMT)

Chuck Sprague -:- We've been invited to a Bay Area ''Event''... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:10:56 (GMT)

__ janet -:- aw too bad latvian night wasn't held here -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:10:10 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Any chance you might actually go? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:49:44 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- No, I work on Sundays, and... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:16:59 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Ok, I can make a return trip to the Bay -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:00:17 (GMT)

__ __ TED Farkel -:- Mr. eDrek,TED's got a favor to ask of you, son... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:00:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Just getting back from S.F. Latvian night -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 03:21:19 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- Ok, I can make a return trip to the Bay -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:30:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- that wasn't giggling, Brian -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 22:29:53 (GMT)

__ __ Mark -:- Ok, I can make a return trip to the Bay -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:49:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- The name is 'Up Close and Personal' -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 20:09:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I thought it was ''Maharaji Watch'' -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 23:05:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- you can see his bedroom from the highway (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 04:44:15 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- ''Appreciation'' meeting - bring check books. NT -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:38:25 (GMT)

__ __ Ian Dury -:- Show me the money! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:47:48 (GMT)

anon -:- message from e.v. on first class -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:08:44 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- OH NO! NOT The Elan Vital PR Team ******* -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:55:43 (GMT)

__ suchab..... -:- Goebbels p.r. message from e.v.; NO 'class' (nt -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:38:14 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- message from exes:class dismissed.School's out!(nT -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:41:04 (GMT)

__ karen -:- message from e.v. on first class -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:29:00 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- Right on, Karen! Good post and I relate... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 14:35:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ karen -:- Right on, Karen! Good post and I relate... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:47:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Hi Karen - here's my e-mail -:- Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 13:51:10 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Hi, Karen. Nice to hear from you. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:36:53 (GMT)

__ Public Enemy #1 -:- Did you notice the slight slip -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 11:01:04 (GMT)

__ SD -:- message from e.v. on first class -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:29:39 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Exactly what they're not doing! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:40:58 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- You're so right, John -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:29:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- And they're going to have a REAL problem with ... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:41:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, first they're going to have to translate it -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:48:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Ian Dury -:- EV has an army of volunteer translators -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:12:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Good point -- righto on that one -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:15:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And they won't be able to ignore France -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:55:46 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- Actually... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:20:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ SD -:- Their 'support' means this: -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:34:45 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Oh I love it! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:30:00 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- Curious about 'personally impacted' (seriously!) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 15:36:09 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Personally impacted? The cult is constipated. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:07:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ ShitDistuber -:- Personally impacted? The cult is constipated. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:31:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Oh Oh! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:44:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Ian Dury -:- This must be the work of -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 13:01:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 17:31:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:50:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:04:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:13:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:16:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:24:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:35:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:41:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:58:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:08:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:46:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS - is this grey mail? NT -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:24:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS - is this grey mail? NT -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:26:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS - I promise, Jim -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:34:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Who The Hell s IJEAN MARIE BONTHOUS? nt -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:02:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ F arti ji -:- Constipation and diarrohea are close to F arti's -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:10:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Oh yes, indeed -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:33:21 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Oh no! What will we do now?! (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:10:52 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Call The Anti-Ex-Premie.Org Hot Line Of Course nt -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:06:22 (GMT)

Jim -:- My reply to Maria's essay on Pia's site -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:11:57 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- that's telling it straight up, Jim -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:16:38 (GMT)

__ Bazza -:- Great rebuttal as usual Jim -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:35:19 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Thought about it but I'm a right-brained person -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:44:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The Theory of Bad Publicity -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:44:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- send em to it IS so too. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:10:42 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Disa-PIA-ring act -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:26:07 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Very odd and bad manners too -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:40:54 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Just another Disa-PIA-ring act! -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:36:05 (GMT)

__ Bazza -:- PS ELK you need to update your link too! nt -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:28:42 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- and EV Australia -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:45:31 (GMT)

Henry -:- What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 20:39:24 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Justification and a sympathetic ear. -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 03:52:58 (GMT)

__ jim boeger -:- What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:12:39 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Ten-foot pole -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:36:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ jim boeger -:- Ten-foot pole -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 16:42:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ten-foot pole -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 17:24:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nige -:- At least no. (2) makes sort of sense... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:47:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Ten-foot pole - astral creatures - no comment NT -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:08:44 (GMT)

__ __ Elaine -:- What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:19:59 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 05:23:51 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- Reinforcing devotion or brainwashing? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:04:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Good comparisons, Connie... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:11:20 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- I think you just did -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:36:32 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:44:32 (GMT)

__ __ Henry -:- The Heart connection is much of it -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:00:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- The Heart connection is much of it -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:16:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Henry -:- Elaine, Heart connection differs from satsang -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:33:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good analysis, Elaine! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:57:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Good analysis, Elaine! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:17:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- The Heart connection IS real satsang to me... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:48:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- The Heart connection IS real satsang to me... -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:04:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Elaine. DVD satsang costs 135 bucks nowadays -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:22:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- To Henry and Elaine:Satsang - The company of truth -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:08:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- To Henry and Elaine:Satsang - The company of truth -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 05:23:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The company of truth- group dynamics -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:26:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ jim boeger -:- The company of truth- group dynamics -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:23:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The company of truth - creative statistics -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:49:56 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- I *was* serious -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:14:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- I *was* serious -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:04:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- it's Father's Day -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:17:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- it's Father's Day -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:28:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- don't know what I believe -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:33:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Gotcha nt -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:36:40 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- it helped the formation of the belief system -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 20:50:11 (GMT)

__ __ Bob -:- It was almost magic at times -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:25:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Elaine -:- It was almost magic at times -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:35:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- not vague -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:21:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Henry -:- It was almost magic at times -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 13:46:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- other factors contributed to the bliss -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 23:00:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- It was almost magic at times -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:50:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- It must have been -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:13:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ wolfie -:- it's possible, but not magical -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:39:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- It must have been -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:53:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- It must have been -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:03:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- It must have been -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:23:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- no- i've been there too. its real -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:40:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- I LIKE YOUR POST - never mind what the cynical -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:42:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You have to choose, Jane -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 21:53:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- no- i've been there too. its real -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:56:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- no- i've been there too. its real -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:49:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You actually believe this fairy tale? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:46:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, Janet, don't you want to educate us? -:- Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 04:17:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Okay, Janet, what am I going to type next? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:55:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ One more point -:- what next? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:20:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Dogs don't have esp -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:25:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Dogs Do have esp, and it's been studied. -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:59:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativeJimmy -:- Well that's that then, I guess -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 23:51:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Dogs PROBABLY don't have esp -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:18:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Dogs PROBABLY don't have esp -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:55:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Thoughtwaves (increasingly OT) -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:15:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- what next? 20/20 report -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:01:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- I am Bob, not 'one more point' nt -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:23:02 (GMT)

Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:36:00 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? Message:

I can't say I remember the name from way back when but then I am just an ignorant idiot.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 16:52:22 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: check these two links Message:

He touts something called 'Action Learning' which he describes as being ' ... very subtle and does not lend itself well to being described in words. Like golf or ice cream, it needs to be experienced.' Now just WHO does that remind you of? Familiar territory, methinks. He also has a book for sale (price from Amazon 'only' $275.00)

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 14:04:57 (GMT) From: Giggles Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? Message:

iChange Contact: Jean-Marie Bonthous Email: jmb@ichange.org Phone: 310 457 0444 Fax: 310 457 2218 Address: 31339 Pacific Coast Highway Malibu, CA 90265 USA Services: Other and Support Industry Expertise: Utilities (electrical and gas) Soft drinks Chemicals Healthcare Government Locations Served: USA and Europe Consulting in the management of the the change brought upon by SAP Working with SAP project leadership, we facilitate and help direct the facilitation of the change. This includes helping conceive learning/change strategies and helping implement them, management practices, leadership enrollment, as well as learning and performance development for the SAP project team communications, education and training.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:11:29 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: What we do know Message:

Mr. Bonthous was an attendee at the infamous San Yisidro meeting described by Mr. Dettmers in earlier posts. Bonthous was apparently involved with international event planning, but was fired and banned from the inner circle for his part in the San Yisidro debacle. Earlier posts on this forum indicate that Bonthous purchased a multi-million dollar home down the hill from the Malibu Divine Residence from none other than Eddie Van Halen. Recent posts also indicate that Mr. Bonthous is now at the helm of EV International PR, is French and knows what the Combat article says.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:35:47 (GMT) From: Mr. williams Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: What we do know Message:

Mr. Bonthous was an attendee at the infamous San Yisidro meeting described by Mr. Dettmers in earlier posts. Bonthous was apparently involved with international event planning, but was fired and banned from the inner circle for his part in the San Yisidro debacle. Earlier posts on this forum indicate that Bonthous purchased a multi-million dollar home down the hill from the Malibu Divine Residence from none other than Eddie Van Halen. >I can tell anyone reading this, PWK, ex, confused aspirant, or whomever, that these statements are utter hogwash, or at best,docudrama, made-up stuff shackled to a small kernel of truth, fiction tarted up as truth, and then accepted AS truth by the 'cultcore' of EPO.....and it is hogwash and distortion, I assure you.....but it's just my word against someone else's. Perhaps your strategy is based on your belief that the person that says their 'truth' the most times wins, and that's why I'm continually urged off the site, but the site originators and builders chose to make it interactive. Hit me with your Rhythm Stick.......

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 15:16:36 (GMT) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: Mr. williams Subject: You're Mistaken Message:

Mr. Williams: Actually Ian Dury is correct. JM Bonthous was indeed at the San Ysidro conference and was indeed let go afterward, until after a number of years JM Bonthous asked M if he could return to serve M, and M acceded. JM Bonthous does indeed own a house directly down the hill from M's manse, which is visible from his house. As Sir Dave noted in the post below this one, it does no good for you to just cry foul into the wind, unless you specifically correct certain misstatements. Your dyspeptic whine really does a disservice to your fellow premies and, in fact, underscores the the fact that you do not know what you're talking about in this case. Shooting into the crowd isn't going to scare us away. Sometimes the truth is the truth and isn't always what you want to hear.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 21:46:42 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Nick Danger, Third Eye Subject: He lives on PCH. Message:

His home and business address is on Pacific Coast Highway. Source: http://world.std.com/~lo/96.10/0064.html

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 14:19:11 (GMT) From: ND, 3rd Eye Email: None To: G Subject: His biz may be on PCH, but not his home...nt Message:

mm

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:56:45 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Mr. williams Subject: What's incorrect about JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS Message:

Which bits are fabrication and what is the truth of the matter. It's no point just saying it's all hogwash and giving no alternative.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:12:11 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: What we do know Message:

I did a www.knowx.com search to see if Mr. Bonthous is an order or officer of a business, no matches were found, but if I recall correctly he does have a business, I believe he runs it from his home in Malibu. Some possibly related web pages: Assessing organizational talent Growing Strategists Learning as Strategy SAP Consulting Firms Business Intelligence From Amazon.com: Bibliography of Business/Competitive Intelligence and Benchmarking Literature by Jean-Marie Bonthous, Michele M. Newman (Editor) Our Price: $275.00

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 02:30:06 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS reads FRENCH? Message:

Even though he doesn't like his name mentioned here perhaps he will transcribe the Combat article for US!!! Maybe not...

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:38:15 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: or is JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS a woman? Message:

I mean, 'Marie' is a woman's name, is it not? And 'Jean' could be a French Jean (John) or an English Jean.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:36:53 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? Message:

Beats me. Why?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:48:19 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: Who is this JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS guy? Message:

I'm just curious. Could be a man or a woman with a name like that.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:50:25 (GMT) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS est un homme francais.... Message:

We must stop mentioning his name. He hates it.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:55:00 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Nick Danger, Third Eye Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS est un homme francais.... Message:

Thanks. I'm not mentioning his name, see .... Now I'm gonna eat my trifle I got from 7-11 (now called B2) and then go to bed.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:39:27 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS does not like his name here Message:

Please stop mentioning his name. Lunch break over, Back to the salt mines.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 22:50:48 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: Pourquoi J-M BONTHOUS n'aime pas son nom ici? Message:

Hi Pat? Thanks for your compliment yesterday...I enjoy your posts as well!

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:43:37 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: PatC Subject: OK I won't mention JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS Message:

at least for a while because now it's my bedtime. But is he French?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:54:30 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Also GLEN WHITTAKER does not like his name here Message:

As well as IRA WOODS, DAVID SMITH, VALERIO WHATSISFACE and YORAM WEISS. Please stop mentioning there names of FV as they find it embarassing. Could someone please post a list of the longterm EV honchos whose names we should not mention on FV. This has nothing to do with the fact that I am compiling a list of their names as co-conspirators in the guru scam and recipients of the secret fifth technique but because I want to know which names I should not mention on FV as a courtesy to them.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:54:48 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: PatC Subject: Not to mention JOHN MARR... very big PAM! Message:

x

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:50:32 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Moldy Warp Subject: Its going to be a matter of some pleasure for them Message:

to see John's name among the serious international business honchos.. John is such a lovely guy.. I havnt seen him for ages but he used to hold M's events together in the UK with seemingly effortless charm. I dont know how involved he was with the heavy duty suits. It will soon be a matter of some disgrace not to be NAMED on EPO. Bill Wishart all that lot... Hows daughterji Molds ?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:58:42 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: Loaf and Salam Subject: John Marr - lovely(if misguided) guy Message:

Apparently a very cenral PAM now.... 'seemingly effortless charm' is a good description... and one of the stalwarts of my local community.... OH what a shame... intelligent too. I got a shock when I heard that he was still involved.. but he was always very 'one pointed'... obviously a character trait that can cut both ways!!! Hello Loafie... my daughter is back in England... she might have malaria or might not... but hasn't actually got it at the mo... confusing beast malaria... Anyway at the mo she is with big sister in Manchesterford (ref: Acorn Antiques) awaiting her boyfriend's return from an Outer Hebridian island)xxxxxx

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:38:06 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Moldy Warp Subject: Who is JOHN MARR... the very big PAM!..nt Message:

JOHN MARR

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:05:52 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: PatC Subject: OK I'll not mention GLEN WHITTAKER Message:

Does he still have a moustache? I do know a very nice premie (woman) who doesn't like him. I think she could tell me a thing or two.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:11:37 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS and GLEN WHITTAKER don't like Message:

having their names here? Well, boo hoo hoo! I'll never do it again, I promise!

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:53:40 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER dont like Message:

there names mentioned. Why do JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER don't like their name mentioned? I don't know why JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER don't like their names mentioned. Does anyone know why JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER don't like their names mentioned? If you do, please tell us why JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER don't like their names mentioned.....JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER.... How many sentences can you make using JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS,GLEN WHITTAKER names because they don't like their names mentioned.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:48:27 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Salam Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS, GLEN WHITTAKER dont like Message:

I'm going to stop mentioning their names now. For an hour or so.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:29:31 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: W.B .STORES Ltd ..EV (UK) no likeee (nt) Message:

m

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:57:46 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: W.B .STORES Ltd. EV (UK) Message:

I've never heard of them. Are they affiliated to the charity called Elan Vital?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:32:34 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: W.B .STORES Ltd. EV (UK) Message:

They used to BE Elan Vital(UK). Check it out on www.companieshouse.gov.uk/info/ Type Elan Vital into the company search box & read all about it. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 02:19:28 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Elan Vital Ltd. Message:

Elan Vital Ltd. is a private company separate from Elan Vital UK the charity. ELan Vital Ltd. used to be called W.B. Stores. Salam and JohnT have financial papers for Elan Vital Ltd. on their web sites. I don't have the URLs off hand. I never did figure out what 'W.B.' stood for or what stores had to do with all this. Anyone know? Premies who went to Amaroo wrote out checks to Elan Vital Ltd. Elan Vital Ltd. is owned by 'trustees of Elan Vital Trust'. There is a similar private company in the US called International Conference Management. Premies write checks to this company for some Elan Vital related events. I seem to recall that ICM used to have a name with 'Stores' in it. I may have posted about this name change. There used to be Florida companies called I.C.M. Holidays, Inc., International Conference Management Inc., Travel Lite Company, Inc. and Empire Bus Lines Inc. All were DLM/EV related. See http://ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/corpweb/inquiry/corioff.html Try a search on 'Vuko'.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:27:49 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHUOS but now we still Message:

don't know who he (JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS ) is...

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:40:08 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bob Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHUOS but now we still Message:

Now I get it, this is following from below.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:41:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji can't help but talk about us now Message:

ELK has two things on it now about Maharaji's bathetic nostalgia-fest in England: Find your sunshine in every breath Maharaji spoke for about 70 minutes this afternoon - this first day of the 30th anniversary celebration of his arrival in the west. The weather, so typical of an English summer, matched his metaphor of the grey clouds clearing when 'in every breath, you find your sunshine.' The 6700 people who gathered to celebrate with Maharaji in a mostly dull and wet Nottingham definitely felt the sunshine of his speech. He talked of his memories of his arrival in London 30 years ago, and about life with his unique sense of profundity, humour and understanding. This report will be updated tomorrow. Yech! Talk about Happy Clapper talk. Here's today's: Find your sunshine in every breath What follows is our informal report of the second day of the event. We are expecting a fuller report to be filed tomorrow. The second day of this anniversary celebration provided real nourishment for the heart. 'Passages', a video prepared for the event, traced the 30 year history back to the early 1970s. Everybody featured in it unwittingly reflected one of the main themes of Maharaji's address - that the master gives Knowledge out of kindness. His own memory of his master, Sri Maharaj Ji, was of an over-riding kindness as the motivation for his work. Maharaji recalled how hope and trust had played major parts during his first visit to the west. He never knew what was going to happen from one day to the next. 'I was never briefed or de-briefed,' he said. For instance, he had accepted an invitation to Germany, and on arrival he was starving, and so were his travelling companions. His hotel could not provide room service - but offered sandwiches and tea. These were the days of strict vegetarianism, so Maharaji described the dismay of the small group when they discovered they had been served egg sandwiches. He said that the concept in their heads clashed with the hunger in their stomachs. Some of the group had no qualms about eating them, but Charan Anand looked around uncomfortably. He surveyed the scene - picked up a sandwich, scraped out the egg, put the bread back together and ate it. 'I satisfied both the concept and the hunger,' he said. From the earliest age, Maharaji remembered, people had said he was a con-man - that he mimed to tape recordings. He joked: 'I went from con-kid to con-man.' But he added that if touching hearts is described as a 'con', then the world is 'truly upside down'. He reminded the audience how over three decades his message had remained the same: that those who want Knowledge are welcome to it, but those who do not should just 'walk'. He said that he had always been criticised and wore the battle scars of these struggles. There would always be battles, he continued, some of which he would win and some of which he would lose. But the war? This he knew he would win because what he does comes truly from the heart. Drawing his speech to a close he pointed to the front row of the audience and said that at the first event he held in the west in a London town house there were less people than sitting there. The fact that today nearly 7000 people were listening to him was 'no accident' but the reflection of the efforts of so many people... Funny how he thinks that all he's got to say to his critics -- former devotees that gave him their all for years -- is that if they don't like it they can walk. Why even say that at all? Doesn't it suggest that he didn't have to be so generous? Hm, that's a scary thought. I guess he's got a leg up on Jim Jones on this one. How reassuring!

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 05:32:58 (GMT) From: Steve M Email: None To: Jim Subject: 30 fucking years Message:

Hi Jim, Thanks for retrieving that from the ELK garbage bins. So 30 fucking years eh? 30 fucking years of propogation effort and there they are - 7000 mainly middle aged cult members happy clapping the golden Mariarchi and watching those pewky videos of slow motion darshan in India. YUK I guess this program was the big one in Europe with around 50% of attendees coming from outside the UK and the other 3500 taking a break from what's really more essential in their lives to go and pay their respects and get inspired to try and meditate on those excruciatingly boring techniques. Wonder what the population is of Europe these days ? I take a wild guess -220 MILLION ???.... So 7000 people attend the major celebration of 30 ( fucking people over) years in the West. So God in a bod came here 30 yrs ago , with more lawyers... I mean power than ever before - to reveal the supreme knowledge of GOD . Wow 1 It really set the world alight didn't it? I am pissed that I gave so many years of my life in full time service to that pipe dream . Yes I am fucking agrieved that I dedicated my precious life to a FAILURE , A NO HOPER - A LOSER. How did such a wanker acrue so many millions of dollars from selling an extremely mediocre product? Amazin' innit ? Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:28:46 (GMT) From: Moldy Email: None To: Jim Subject: phrzzz,,,splutter,7e8w76..gag and berf...!!! Message:

He reminded the audience how over three decades his message had remained the same: oh yeh - that he was god fucking incarnate that those who want Knowledge are welcome to it, but those who do not should just 'walk'. As if we couldn't before we met the bastard He said that he had always been criticised and wore the battle scars of these struggles. Presumably hidden beneath his Hindu-wobble-dance-look-at-me-I'm-Krishna-seriously-I-really-am loon pants.. There would always be battles, he continued, some of which he would win and some of which he would lose. uuummmm... But the war? This he knew he would win because what he does comes truly from the heart. Unless he comes in his Krishna pants first.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:05:21 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaji can't help but talk about us now Message:

These were the days of strict vegetarianism, so Maharaji described the dismay of the small group when they discovered they had been served egg sandwiches. He said that the concept in their heads clashed with the hunger in their stomachs. Some of the group had no qualms about eating them, but Charan Anand looked around uncomfortably. He surveyed the scene - picked up a sandwich, scraped out the egg, put the bread back together and ate it. Reminds me of something I recently wrote…. > The Argument from Stupidity 'We are not born to eat meat!' (Animal Liberation Front slogan) So to the question of what are humans are meant to eat (the Argument from Stupidity). 'Natural' (along with 'energy' and 'vibration') is among the most misused words in the language, especially as defined in the new age lexicon. I once owned a vegan cookbook entitled Nature's Foods, by Peter Deadman and Karen Betteridge, which takes food-freakery a way down the path towards obsession. Having eliminated animal products from their recipes and replaced them with the resistible delights of tamari, tahini, miso, mouli, millet and the ubiquitous soy bean, Deadman and Betteridge scour their larders for further suspect foodstuffs then solemnly inform the reader that both potatoes and tomatoes should be avoided, since they are of the same family as the deadly nightshade, and the authors find the effects of eating these vegetables deadening. (I say potato, you say potentially lethal, I say tomato, you say to hell with 'em.) It is hard to argue with this kind of metaphorical madness, but the example perhaps illustrates what the rationalist is up against when dealing with pseudoscientific or superstitious thinking. Speaking of which, here is the new age cult leader offering his own Argument from Stupidity. (If I have quoted at some length, I trust that the reader will derive some amusement from this intriguing nutritional discussion.) Guru Maharaj Ji: People will watch television and they see those cowboy movies, and cowboys used to take raw meat and eat that, and they get like that. They got like animals and they used to kill anyone around. How you eat, so you become. See, the way you eat, the way you become. And that's why I want there should be much less food, because that makes you more active. If you just think about eating, eating, eating, you will get lazy like an animal. Eat less, it will make you more active. Q: Maharaj Ji, does it make a difference if a person eats meat or not ? Does it affect their Meditation. Guru Maharaj Ji: I know one thing - 'what you eat, so you become'. I say from experience. I'll tell you one thing, since it's not meant for human beings to eat meat and there's a very logical explanation - may be you even know it. You know, it's like people or the beings that are supposed to eat meat, like cats, lions or animals like that, they always lick water. They don't, they don't suck water. They always lick it. They take their tongue out like that. You have seen how a cat drinks water and how a dog drinks it. But beings that suck water don't eat meat. And that's the way it's supposed to be. And man sucks water - does not lick water, since he is not supposed to eat meat. And God has provided him and made him the king of all nature - not to kill other beings, but to... He has given all the fruits in the world, anything he wants, a big head up here ….. so he has just to utilize everything. And try to understand the beauty and to grasp the beauty of the fruits God has given us. Because I'll tell you, it's really healthy too. Body can just really accept it. And that's the way it is. Yes ? Q: Why wouldn't you say that when you pick a plant you are killing the plant too ? I mean... Guru Maharaj Ji: Well, because that's, that's the thing; that little killing is meant to be for you. And that's O.K Q: A plant still has consciousness. Guru Maharaj Ji: A plant has consciousness, but where is the consciousness? Q: I don't know. Guru Maharaj Ji: See, this is the thing. Where is the consciousness? Someone: The root. Guru Maharaj Ji: The root is the consciousness, but where does the consciousness actually lie ? Because root, if you take root itself, it's in a seed. You see, there is a little explanation to that. If you are eating meat, you are eating out of a being, right ? Like supposedly, some people eat cow, right? Cow comes from life, a mother. Right ? And that also come from a life, and it's a life to a life to a life circle. But a plant does not come from a life. It comes from dead, from a seed which is dead. It doesn't need any nutrition. It's a dead seed. When you plant it, and that's when it becomes (alive), for it to grow, and to give you fruits. Q: What if you eat an animal that comes from a seed? I mean, an animal.. Guru Maharaj Ji: Well, I wouldn't object to... Q: You could call an egg a seed. A chicken comes from an egg; an egg is a seed. Isn't it? Is an egg alive? The one you buy in a store? Guru Maharaj Ji: No. The egg is killed already. Then... see, it's like, it's not like a seed. Still it isn't like a seed. Because seed is inert, dead...' Clearly, if 'how you eat, so you become', Guru Maharaj Ji subsists on a diet of fruitcake, nuts and crackers… But the guru's words typify with - let's face it - awe-inspiring ignorance the inexplicably persuasive thought patterns that guide many a claimant to culinary moral superiority. It works like this: say any old rubbish - if it is ancient wisdom then so much the better. If it is sufficiently plausible for the willing minds of your followers to take on board then that's good enough. At least, it would seem, the fructarian can stop worrying about those pips.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:43:30 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jim Subject: I read one line and wet myself!!!! Message:

I mean, this one... The weather, so typical of an English summer, matched his metaphor of the grey clouds clearing when 'in every breath, you find your sunshine.' Moldy, beside me as I breathe is in total hysterics... Where can you buy this stuff?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:25:15 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind Message:

Someone -- was it Bin? Loaf? (Spoon? Cake?) -- was talking about speeding up to the res' way back when and seeing Maharaji up close and impersonal. This brought back memories of something and yes, Mr. Mind -- if that's really you, of course -- I have to apologize. When Maharaji visited Seattle in '74 I was sent as part of a small WPC contingent from Vancouver to be a Lard Guard. I had been a very, very, very dedicated ashram premie for about half a year. I was nineteen. All the time I'd been a premie I'd dutifully resisted my mind and thus had a whole lot of devotee stuff inside. (Mr, Williams, I, too, was a real warrior once, just like you!). Anyway, what happened was this. Maharaji was up in the upstairs den or something. Maybe even his bedroom. The phone rang and I answered it. It was Shri Raja Ji. I ran upstairs to tell my Lord that and then it happened. He looked at me, quite nonchalantly, and two things occurred simultaneously: my heart broke in profound awakened joy. Here was my own creator looking at me, none but me, for a fleeting moment. It was amazing. The other thing that happened was you, Mr. Mind, told me in no uncertain terms, louder and clearer than you ever had before in all the nights I'd sat in satsang, all my many prayer-filled meditations, that this was all bullshit. You were so damned clear then, Mr. Mind. I'm sorry I couldn't listen to you. See, even then you were telling me that this little Indian kid, who was younger then me for god's sake, was far from my creator or anything of the sort. What can I say? I didn't listen and for that, Mr. Mind, I apologize. Will you, can you, forgive me?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:30:47 (GMT) From: karen Email: None To: Jim Subject: My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind Message:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry but laughing is better fun and your wit is soothing...today I was remembering being at a premie couple's house for satsang in 1978 or so. The woman had a crying baby and 'blissed out us' making herbal tea in her kitchen and she seemed very stressed and upset. Her husband said don't worry, she's just in her mind and I remember thinking it was pretty wierd for an apparent senior in the peace and love business to just write her off like that in front of us all. A cuddle could have been an option...but I buried it along with the disquiet which was my Mr Mind sympathising with hers. I wonder how many buried arguments with my conscience are in there waiting to bubble up...?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:51:57 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: Jim Subject: My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind Message:

So you eventually chose, and owned, 'this is all bullshit' over profound joy. Whatever. I chose differently. Can you just take that in without a snarling response? We cool, or whut?

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 00:17:13 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: My (long overdue) apology to Mr. Mind Message:

I could only be 'cool' with that if I thought it made sense at all. Now it's beyond dispute that Maharaji's a fraud. So, no, it doesn't make sense and no, I'm not cool with it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:10:53 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: No, not cool Message:

It's a false choice. Can you take that in at all?? Your experience is nothing to do with the icon you worship. Fool, not cool.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 20:11:59 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: JohnT Subject: No, not cool - just another frigid widget (nt) Message:

brrrrrr

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:40:55 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Do you accept Mr.Rawat is a liar? Message:

Just wondering. John.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 07:41:41 (GMT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fear Not Message:

..for Mr. Mind is not the ogre as portrayed by The Ogre of Malibu Now, for your penance. No, never mind. I was going to have you sing Hindu Arti but I wouldn't even put Mr. Williams through that.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:10:56 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: We've been invited to a Bay Area ''Event''... Message:

We received the following invitation in the mail yesterday from Pacific Resources, our local organization for M. in the SF Bay Area. The text: You are warmly invited to an Evening of *Appreciation* for people with Knowledge to celebrate the success of many recent projects. Topics will include: >International tours and 2001 events with Maharaji in North America and worldwide >Preparation for ongoing events in the Knowledge Center in Amaroo >Broadcasts and materials >Propagation efforts The meeting will include guest speaker, David Mankoff, some new videos, interaction and personal expressions. Time and Place: Saturday, June 23 7:00pm Piedmont Executive Center, Oakland (3645 Grand Avenue, Suite 202, Oakland, California 94610) The event will start with refreshments at 7:00 for 30 minutes, then the program will begin at 7:30 and will last approximately 1.5 hours. You're warmly invited to attend, and feel free to pass the invitation on to others who might be interested. ( - ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ)

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:10:10 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: aw too bad latvian night wasn't held here Message:

wouldn't just be so rich to bust in en masse and take over the meeting? imagine the crowd at latvian night in the midst of this robotic, zombified cadre. timing really IS everything, isnt it?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:49:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Any chance you might actually go? Message:

Chuck, Any chance you might actually go to this thing? Just to tell us about it later? Take a pillow?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:16:59 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: No, I work on Sundays, and... Message:

I'm pretty much known as an ex now. People would recognize me, and it would be uncomfortable for all concerned. And chances are I would nod off during the videos anyway! (An excuse to catch up on sleep!) I've often thought M would be more successful marketing his videos as a cure for insomnia. I've even seen industrial-strength churchladies nod-off during some of them.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:00:17 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Chuck Sprague Subject: Ok, I can make a return trip to the Bay Message:

I finally make it back to Thousand Oaks and now I've got to turn around and head back in order not to miss this precious opportunity? Ok, I'll be there. I'll sneak in and get the dope on it.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:00:51 (GMT) From: TED Farkel Email: None To: Roger eDrek+friends Subject: Mr. eDrek,TED's got a favor to ask of you, son... Message:

Dear Mr. eDrek- Now I guess you might be wonderin, jus what happened to ole TED, right? I'm still ironing out the details of the Holy Family Reunion, culminating in the big all-night shindig here at the TRAC Center. We're gonna have workshops down here this summer, lots of workshops! Things like: Dave Smith-all night devotional oil can drummin TED-proper way to invite new recruits to 'informal' inspiration meetins (bring em into the boob site first with a foamie, then let it go from there) Shri Raja-how to look cool, while never workin Shri Bhole Ji-sequined stage suit -how to make one and maintain it TED-how to make an arti tray out of an old used hub cap.. Mr. eDrek-how to combine soft porn with devotion (somethin that Everyone would like)...(if that's OK with you, Mr.eDrek...) OR... Mr.eDrek-how to sneak into a maharaji program with a small camcorder lens in your hat or shirt, record the event, and 'bootleg' it (not sure who would be the market, but hey, we'll figure somethin out...) BTW, as long as we're talkin business, how much you collected so far from that Burger King/Holy Family Action Figure Set? We're splittin that 50-50, right? It's a little slow down here in Alabama in the summer. Video attendance is down, but the drek boob site is still pullin in a few lost souls now and then. Later dude, TED Farkel BTW,you got any more ideas for workshops this summer? The premies could use somethin to get their tails waggin agin, and maybe the two of us could make a coupla bucks while givin em what they want...

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 03:21:19 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: TED Farkel Subject: Just getting back from S.F. Latvian night Message:

Farkel, Where have you been, boy? Well, I've been busy too. And I've been stuck in Salinas for the last week and a half when I stepped off the bus on my way home from the S.F. Latvian night. My, oh my, those people sure were nice and the food was good, but I'm not sure they're really premies like they said they were. There were no pictures of our Lord at that woman's house and we never got together to sing Arti like they promised. Oh, well, holy company is holy company and the satsang was flowing and so was the foamies. TED, bad news! The Burger King Action Figures deal fell through because the BK lawyers discovered a possible copyright infringement problem with a similar set of action figures that McDonald's had licensed from the World Wrestling Federation. So, we just gotta learn a lesson and let go. Yeah, things are slow all over, I'm afraid. Seems that this damn economy slowdown, dot.com bust, unemployment, and high energy prices is keeping everyone except our Master at home and trying to conserve. Maharaji, as you know, is one to break everyone's concepts about who he is and what he does. That's why when he isn't burning up gazillions of gallons of expensive jet fuel flying his new G5 he's power-cruising his new 120 foot yacht to India or the Bahamas or somewhere. But, we all know that he is spreading his Knowledge and without the plane or boat that he would have to travel commercial and that just is not very safe. Besides, he is a living Master. Glad to hear you've got some workshops for the summer. It's going to be slim pickings, I fear. Too many premies are visiting this damned hate site and are leaving the fold. There's been a number of shake-ups within the organization including the most important P.R. department. I've respectfully submitted my resume through the proper channels and am waiting to hear if I can do anything at all for my Lord including licking his postage. And have I got the tongue to do it with! Seems that my performance review at my job here at Trancas Market wasn't so good and they've demoted me to stockboy and bagger during the night shift. I guess that I kinda blew it the night Madonna came in and I was following her up and down the aisles. Her security man had to restrain me near the potato chip display and I ended up paying for a lot of potato chips after it was all over. I saw the Boss drive by a couple of times last week. God, does our Lord like to drive fast. He nearly ran over the day laborers standing by the fire hydrant. The weather is good down here in California and I'm able to sleep in my car on Michigan Avenue across from the Woodlawn Cemetery in Santa Monica. The cops don't bother me too much and when they do I always give them satsang and invitations to an introductory video. TED, I think the grace must be flowing because while they make me move on, but at least they don't arrest me anymore. They needed some people up at the Rez for some spring cleaning and I got to go up and polish THE swan on the main gate. Hell, that bird ain't much more than a foot or so high, but with all the love and attention I gave to it the job took me nearly three hours. And the best part is that standing up there on the ladder and all I got to peer into the inner courtyard. I didn't see the Boss, but did manage a glimpse of Daya and is she ever a babe. Too bad she's going out with what's his name's son. Who would have thought? Well, TED, I'd best go. Need to clean myself up and get ready for work. Gotta a long night ahead and the Monday day crew really makes a mess getting new stock brought in. I gotta bust down all of them empty boxes. Takes hours and it's pretty boring, but I think of my Lord when I do it and it goes by pretty quick.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 11:30:36 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Roger eDrek Subject: Ok, I can make a return trip to the Bay Message:

Thanks, Roger. Remember to put new batteries in your tape recorder this time. All we could make out on your last tape was your giggling!

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 22:29:53 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Brian Subject: that wasn't giggling, Brian Message:

oh, did I ever have a dream the night before last! Somehow I was at Amaroo and I kept running into Maharaji and his entourage. He was always smiling like he was really happy to see me there. I knew or I believed that he didn't know who I really was, but I know it was only a matter of time. The premies were constantly herded into large hot and stuffy storage sheds to view videos. It pained me to endure the mind numbing videos. Monica Lewis was there and Maharaji had finally relented and allowed her to have a baby. No, I wasn't giggling, Brian. I was in fear for my life.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:49:20 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Ok, I can make a return trip to the Bay Message:

Rog, Glad to catch your post. The real estate office at Point Dume called and is looking for the rental deposit for the new office. What should I tell them ? And what is the name we will be operating under ? Mark

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 20:09:05 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Mark Subject: The name is 'Up Close and Personal' Message:

Thanks, Mark. Indeed, we need to go for this particular office with it's very strategic location. Just tell them that our tax exempt educational organization is called, 'Up Close and Personal'.

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 23:05:44 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: I thought it was ''Maharaji Watch'' Message:

since you can see his bedroom with binoculars if you stand on the toilet in the rear bathroom.

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Date: Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 04:44:15 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: PatC Subject: you can see his bedroom from the highway (nt) Message:

;lkj

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:38:25 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: ''Appreciation'' meeting - bring check books. NT Message:

h

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:47:48 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: PatC Subject: Show me the money! Message:

Mr. Mankoff is the assistant of chief fundraiser Yoram Weis. I bet he'll share some real 'personal expressions'. 'It's so incredible that right now we have this amazing opportunity to really participate in a totally synchronized way to show our gratitude for everything that we have been given, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I will accept cash, checks, stocks, bonds, any pawnable jewelery or merchandise and, of course, all major credit cards.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:08:44 (GMT) From: anon Email: 0 To: Everyone Subject: message from e.v. on first class Message:

Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:28:12 PM US News & Information From: Steve Rush Subject: Response to Media Challenge To: US News & Information Concerning Recent Media Coverage Perhaps you are aware of recent media attention surrounding the event last month in Versailles, France. If not: Media incidents stemmed from an ongoing effort of a small group of individuals who believe Maharaji and Knowledge to be fraudulent and who want to discredit him. Because of your involvement with Elan Vital, we want to communicate that The Elan Vital PR Team is responding appropriately to this incident. Please be assured that Elan Vital in both North America and Europe is countering their unsubstantiated and defamatory allegations. Additionally, you can expect communications from us to keep you informed of any further developments. Anyone who is feeling personally impacted may call 818 879-1500 to be directed to an appropriate resource. The Elan Vital PR team ____________________

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:55:43 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: anon Subject: OH NO! NOT The Elan Vital PR Team ******* Message:

Tell me, how many premies know about this site and what's being said? Did this note get sent to every community? Have any of your friends left M & K? Oh please, give us the scoop. p.s. Where is Marolyn? Is she still with the BigHead? Deborah

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:38:14 (GMT) From: suchab..... Email: None To: anon Subject: Goebbels p.r. message from e.v.; NO 'class' (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:41:04 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: suchab..... Subject: message from exes:class dismissed.School's out!(nT Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:29:00 (GMT) From: karen Email: katielou727@hotmail.com To: anon Subject: message from e.v. on first class Message:

I have only just seen this site. Denial is an amazing thing! M and my 'understanding' of who he was has been so important to me but I considered myself lucky to have avoided the crap of the ashram days, which I put down to premies wrongly interpreting things and I thought M had a hard task trying to get all these hippy space cadets focused in the right way!!! I cannot believe what an idiot I have been and I am totally grateful to the part of me (my trusty mind!)that wouldn't let me rave on to my sceptical friends and family. Somehow I thought it was so private and inner and personal that I couldn't put my beliefs out there for ridicule (except I thought it was knowingness not just low spiritual level faith!!) I am reacting with such a mixture of feelings, not unlike being told of a cancer diagnosis...but of that I am a survivor and of this too. It's just making sense of it!?! I've been reading this expremie things with a thirst that is being quenched!! I no longer have to feel as if I don't really appreciate the amazing 'gift' because I don't tow the party line and have never been a consistent practicer...more of a binger...The really hard part is that some of my darshan and satsang experiences were really incredible and are(were) treasured memories...like finding out your husband, who you thought loved you as you loved him, has been cheating on you for years and years and not even feeling bad about it...It's shock!! I find the alcoholic aspect of it unreal why doesn't someone suggest a celebrity detox and AA group...maybe he did have pure motives once but the heavy duty booze has pickled his brains and as they say in AlAnon...You don't have to accept unacceptable behaviour! All the codependent PAMs could go to the AlAnon meetings to teach them how not to cover up garbage. I really feel for his kids, growing up in such a dysfunctional situation and Marolyn...go girl...get out of there and let the other enlightened ones deal with the DT's when the supply runs out (adoration, booze and cover-up artists!!)

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 14:35:40 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: karen Subject: Right on, Karen! Good post and I relate... Message:

Thanks for your post - you touched on several things that I feel are important in coming to terms with leaving Maharaji. You wrote: The really hard part is that some of my darshan and satsang experiences were really incredible and are(were) treasured memories...like finding out your husband, who you thought loved you as you loved him, has been cheating on you for years and years and not even feeling bad about it...It's shock!! I agree completely. I actually HAD that experience with my ex-husband, and was forced to look at our whole marriage with new eyes - in other words, re-evaluating the past in terms of what I knew now. It was mind-boggling - took me a few years to come to terms with it. I can accept now that good things DID happen, but also know that he did not really love me in the way I thought. I felt the same way when I found this site - I had to re-evaluate all my beliefs about premies and Maharaji, even though I'd left years ago. You wrote: I find the alcoholic aspect of it unreal why doesn't someone suggest a celebrity detox and AA group...maybe he did have pure motives once but the heavy duty booze has pickled his brains and as they say in AlAnon...You don't have to accept unacceptable behaviour! The drinking/alcoholism was a major revelation for me also. I grew up with alcoholic parents, and if I had EVER known that M drank so heavily, I would have been out of there immediately. So many of the things that happen around Maharaji remind me of alcoholic family patterns - and of course, I couldn't see it at the time. Also, congratulations on getting rid of the guilt for not 'being grateful' enough - that was a major step for me as well. Thanks again - and hope to hear more from you - Katie H.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:47:37 (GMT) From: karen Email: katielou727@hotmail.com To: Katie H Subject: Right on, Karen! Good post and I relate... Message:

Thankyou...I am in shock and it is the alcoholic realization that is giving me a really hard time because that was my husband story and his self deception and verbal slickness was incredible and it makes me furious that it's happening again only this time I do feel pretty dumb and know now why I was so shy and 'private' about m and k. I would love to have a private e-mail from anyone who reads this and can relate to my need to rearrange everything so I can keep what I want (the part that was me and mine anyway) and put the rest in the toxic waste disposal bin

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Date: Wed, Jun 20, 2001 at 13:51:10 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: karen Subject: Hi Karen - here's my e-mail Message:

Not sure I can really help much with that particular issue, although I can relate to it, but I am a good listener. Sorry it took me so long to answer this, and I hope you see it. Take care & feel free to e-mail - Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:36:53 (GMT) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: karen Subject: Hi, Karen. Nice to hear from you. Message:

Thanks for your post. I'm looking forward to reading more from you. You said: ''The really hard part is that some of my darshan and satsang experiences were really incredible and are(were) treasured memories...'' Those great feelings were inside us and were simply triggered by the guru. Now it's time to find and keep our good feelings but without being codependent. After all if, as the guru said, everything we ever wanted is inside us, then why do we need an external trigger? I wish you everything of the best.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 11:01:04 (GMT) From: Public Enemy #1 Email: None To: anon Subject: Did you notice the slight slip Message:

a small group of individuals who believe Maharaji and Knowledge to be fraudulent and who want to discredit him. Because of your involvement with Elan Vital, we want to communicate that The Elan Vital PR Team is responding appropriately to this incident. They don't mention the Combat review specifically, just 'the media coverage': thet feel they're attacked by the media. Then I don't understand: 'Because of your involvement', we want .... They're going to do something for you premies .... Please be assured that Elan Vital in both North America and Europe is countering their unsubstantiated ... What are they 'doing' exactly ? Worsen the situation by having more cultish websites online ? Are they going to respond specifically to the 'defamatory' allegations ? Are they going to sue whoever is responsible for this ?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:29:39 (GMT) From: SD Email: None To: anon Subject: message from e.v. on first class Message:

It's what's called hanging yourself by your own rope. If I was still a premie, this sort of communication from Elan Vital would leave me cold and very suspicious, especially the last sentence.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:40:58 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: anon Subject: Exactly what they're not doing! Message:

Please be assured that Elan Vital in both North America and Europe is countering their unsubstantiated and defamatory allegations. Firstly, I want to know which of the allegations on exes' sites are 'unsubstantiated and defamatory' so that I can take those with a pinch of salt, and which are true. Unless they mean none of the allegations are true, in which case this never happened:- 'Maharaji left India for the first time in 1971. He arrived in the UK in June, and then traveled on to the US and Canada. He gave many lectures on 'Knowledge' - four meditation techniques which were revealed to sincere seekers in 'Knowledge sessions'. Guru Maharaj Ji (as he was then referred to) did not personally reveal the meditation techniques. The Knowledge sessions were conducted by East Indian 'mahatmas' (loosely translated as 'great souls'), many of whom had previously been followers of his deceased father and DLM founder, Hans Ji Maharaj. Thousands of people received Knowledge in the early seventies. Most of those initiated were young people in their teens and early twenties. Because this is alleged on the EPO site. So if this is true, then other statements on exes' sites may also be true. EV really needs to specify which statements on exes' sites are true and which are false. So, Elan Vital, could you help us out here? John

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:29:04 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: JHB Subject: You're so right, John Message:

You wrote: Firstly, I want to know which of the allegations on exes' sites are 'unsubstantiated and defamatory' so that I can take those with a pinch of salt, and which are true. I'd like to know this too - I get really tired of hearing that 'it's all lies' or whatever. I keep asking people exactly WHAT is a 'lie' or untrue on ex-premie.org and have never gotten any answers. A couple of EX-premies have corrected minor factual errors (dates, etc.), for which I'm grateful, but haven't ever heard from any current premies, especially anyone in a position of power in Maharaji's organization. Broad accusations of 'unsubstantiated and defamatory allegations' get real old after a while if no one will discuss the facts.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:41:23 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Katie H Subject: And they're going to have a REAL problem with ... Message:

... the Combat article. Jean-Michel said it was all carefully researched to be factual, to withstand any sort of challenge EV could throw at it, if they are stupid enough to throw anything but a spin control challenge. Spin control will not work as a defense against facts -- only to the truly brainwashed or truly 'persuaded' (as Nige likes to said in lieu of brainwashed because of the connotations), or the truly indonctrinated. You're right. They've NEVER done a point-by-point, because they CAN'T. So all they can do is the thing that most people in high places do. Lie, lie, lie. In the US we've had Richard Nixon (Watergate), George Bush (Iran-Contra), Bill Clinton (oralsexgate) give an initial reaction: 'It-ain't-so!' Then a lot of sand in the eyes. Then a lot of inky black water. Then it either blows away or they end up capitulating. But only with a pack of dogs on them, and only when cornered. Rawat knows that as long as he's not cornered, he and his followers can just keep repeating their spin control, which is all they have for their side of the story. PWK and hurl, love, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:48:51 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Yeah, first they're going to have to translate it Message:

Now how in the world is EV going to translate it when we've been waiting for someone to do that for over a month now? Forget it. We've got nothing to worry about. I mean, I can't imagine EV filing a suit based on a Babel Fish translation. Naw, we're safe. For now, at least.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:12:39 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Jim Subject: EV has an army of volunteer translators Message:

for international programs, staff translators at Visions International, plus the venerable head of EV PR, Mr. Bonthous, who is French. The 'inner circle' had English transcripts long ago.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:15:36 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Good point -- righto on that one Message:

All those headsets at international programs even in the 70s. --f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:55:46 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: And they won't be able to ignore France Message:

I just read yesterday that it has the 6th largest economy in the world, right behind my own state, California which is number 5. Yeah, just a lot of hot air. But then again, wasn't that always the case? Boy, it took me a long while to figure that out. So I guess they're hoping that there will be more people like that around. They've definitely got quite a few. cheers, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:20:20 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: JHB Subject: Actually... Message:

EV is 'countering' the claims in the press, not those on this site. EPO has never been directly mentioned by EV, as far as I know. It doesn't exist. Neither do the other ex-premie websites - particularly those it forced offline. What they're doing is nothing new. EV has been 'countering' the truth for as long as I can remember. Their support of those 'personally impacted' by the articles is touching, and stands in stark contrast to the lack of support offered to premies who have been sexually molested by EV's own.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:34:45 (GMT) From: SD Email: None To: Brian Subject: Their 'support' means this: Message:

sending people to Pia's website. That's about all this dry and sterile organisation can do.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:30:00 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: anon Subject: Oh I love it! Message:

They said: Media incidents stemmed from an ongoing effort of a small group of individuals who believe Maharaji and Knowledge to be fraudulent and who want to discredit him. Because of your involvement with Elan Vital, we want to communicate that The Elan Vital PR Team is responding appropriately to this incident. Translation: Damage control! Mayday! Mayday! Put in your earplugs! Put on your eyeshades! Don't think about this! We will defend our illusion, and yours too, that M is 'the Master.' And this one: Anyone who is feeling personally impacted may call 818 879-1500 to be directed to an appropriate resource. Suggestion: Personally impacted? Try ex-lax! And this one: Please be assured that Elan Vital in both North America and Europe is countering their unsubstantiated and defamatory allegations. Translation: Pre-emptive strike. This is a sign the empire is crumbling. Heretofore, including the Pat Halley incident and the Jagdeo sexual abuse, it's been the head in the sand approach. 'Sexual abuse? Huh?' 'A mahatma with a hammer. We don't know the guy, but we just shipped him out of the country to India. What you need to understand is that I'm here to bring Peace to the World. Don't sweat the small stuff. Next question?' Now they know that sites like EPO are spreading the word about the Combat article in France. But of course, those who didn't know about it, now will. I wish I could help translate the article into English, but I don't know a lick of French. Merde! Well, at least I know that one, even if I probably spelled it incorrectly. Thank you Anon! and love to you, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 15:36:09 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Curious about 'personally impacted' (seriously!) Message:

What are they talking about - or suggesting - here? Anyone got any ideas?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:07:35 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Personally impacted? The cult is constipated. Message:

Excellent diagnosis. The management consultant types are having a field day distracting the ''synchronized'' PWKs with KITS (Knowledge Information Training Seminars) as the volunteer staff is downsized. I wonder how many consultant types earn money from EV to plan the seminars - like Joan Apter (not necessarily her of course but all the others like Valerio Whatsisface.) I wonder how many of the inner business circle are paid a fee by EV to conduct PR, spin control, market research and audience targeting. How many donated bucks get spent by EV on outside consultants who are in on the scam? I'm starting to think that the longterm upper echelons of EV are just as culpable and I am going to start keeping a list of their names whenever they are mentioned here. So please mention them often. Now there's Pastor ''Hindu Gothic'' Smith and .....

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:31:34 (GMT) From: ShitDistuber Email: None To: PatC Subject: Personally impacted? The cult is constipated. Message:

Impacted - American Heritage Impacted - Encarta

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:44:27 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Oh Oh! Message:

See, God punished me for using an alias after preaching against doing that - I was distubed and embarrassed by having that glaring spelling error and seeing an alias where my name should have been. Live and learn. Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 13:01:14 (GMT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: PatC Subject: This must be the work of Message:

newly named head of EV International PR, Jean Marie Bonthous, who absolutely HATES being mentioned here.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 17:31:13 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:50:07 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

too bad

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:04:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deborah Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

Yeah, I know how he feels.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:13:41 (GMT) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: Jim Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

Me, too.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:16:41 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Nick Danger, Third Eye Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

that is sad

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:24:10 (GMT) From: Nick Danger, Third Eye Email: None To: Susan Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

So so sad, yes. Tres triste, n'est-ce pas?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:35:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nick Danger, Third Eye Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

But what's the solution? The way I see it ... oh never mind.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:41:00 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Jim Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

I don't think there is one. I'm open, though, to suggestions. Graymail, perhaps?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:58:11 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Monmot Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

I'm not sure about graymail but I do know one thing. This thread alone is only making matters worse. Can't you see what's happening? Everytime someone responds they just add another post with this asshole's name all over it! I mean, wake up people, is what I say. This is really embarrassing the guy. Please, if you have any sense of decency at all, please let me know you understand how hard this might be on Mr. Bonthous.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:08:40 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Jim Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

I certainly understand, Jim. I really do. But I'm not an FA, so there's nothing *I* can do, and the FA has earned a well-deserved day off, so there's nothing s/he can do. Perhaps, as you suggested, others could chime in with possible solutions to this horrible dilemma.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 22:46:31 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS doesn't like his name here?n/t Message:

If you keep this up the search engines will point here when his name is searched. I typed his name in Google and came up with a few uninteresting things - he was interested in a type of motor home last year apparently. Some of the sites I hit were intelligence sites that charged around two dollars for reports. By the way, when I type 'Steve Quint' into Google, I get two EPO hits of the hundreds of messages I've posted. One's called 'The Plain Truth About Cow Farts' in response to a silly posting by Danny, and one's called 'So I went to the Satellite Video Event last night' from Dec. 29, 2000 which was the day after I met Jim for some drinks and attended the local video event with him, and which goes like this: I just want to add that I concur with Jim's observations. Attendance was lower than expected. He made a total fool of himself (m, not Jim). He looked like he was squirming in his chair. And the singing - towards the end I actually heard some loud banging on the side wall of the room - I was expecting baying dogs any second. The lord? The Indian audience looked infinitely happier than he did. Jim said it's because they don't know he's a fake and he does. Ignorance is bliss. Steve Can anybody posting here explain why only two messages out of probably a thousand that I've posted are referenced by Google? Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:24:07 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS - is this grey mail? NT Message:

k

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:26:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: PatC Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS - is this grey mail? NT Message:

Don't know, Pat, but it sure is troubling. Look, can you promise me right now that you won't extend this any longer? The guy obviously doesn't like it. 's the least we can do.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:34:14 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: JEAN MARIE BONTHOUS - I promise, Jim Message:

Oops sorry I forgot to delete his name from the subject line. Nap time?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:02:47 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Who The Hell s IJEAN MARIE BONTHOUS? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 10:10:35 (GMT) From: F arti ji Email: None To: PatC Subject: Constipation and diarrohea are close to F arti's Message:

heart(arse actually).I just thought I would insert that in there for you Pat.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:33:21 (GMT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: PatC Subject: Oh yes, indeed Message:

I've thought for a long time that there has to be many of the long time upper echelon turning a buck on the Rawat scam. Why else would most of them still be around? ...because Rawat is gonna bring peace to the planet?...or because Rawat has brought peace to them? Oh yes, if and when the Judgment at Nuremberg type of day ever comes.....

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 06:10:52 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: anon Subject: Oh no! What will we do now?! (nt) Message:

gggggggg

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:06:22 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail To: Jim Subject: Call The Anti-Ex-Premie.Org Hot Line Of Course nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:11:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My reply to Maria's essay on Pia's site Message:

This is a reply to what's called a 'staff article' by Mariah on Pia's site. It's called 'Let's Give Jim Heller Something do Do Before He Goes Out Tonight': I am both glad for this site and sad that there is need for it. Elsewhere in your post you describe how you can't simply can't trust your own judgement: There seems to be a mechanism inside me that is constantly building systems of understanding that lull me into feeling that I have life under control. Sometimes I don't even know that I have done this. I remember feeling that way when I was in the cult. No surprise, I guess, seeing as that's how Maharaji trained us: WHAT mind does is, it comes around; and slowly, slowly, slowly, very gradually, it takes it's position. You see ? It comes along and says, 'Jai Satchitanand, Premie Ji ! Isn't everything beautiful ?' I mean, that is something you want to hear. So when mind says, 'Knowledge is beautiful', you don't deny it. You say, 'Right !' And you let it in. Boom ! It's penetrated. It's inside of you. It's there. And you didn't even know it, it came so smooth ! Because, you see, it's a Professional. It is his job, his duty, to keep a man always confused - from one thing to another thing, to another thing, to another thing. This is why this world stands where it stands now. I mean, look at the situation of this world. Where it stands is because of its mind. The mind is crazy. So, in light of this imperative to trade off your own self-confidence wholesale, I have to ask how in the world you ever decided that there was a need for this site. Surely it wasn't anything Maharaji said. He's on record urging premies to just ignore criticism in statements like this: Confusion is confusion. And confusion is there not because of confusion but because of lack of clarity. You want to get rid of confusion? Don't try to sort out confusion, because if you try to sort it out you're just going to get more confused. Garner, escort, bring in pure, sweet clarity. That is the only way you can untangle the web of confusion. Don't take a bucket and try to throw darkness out the window. That's not going to do you any good. You want to take away the darkness? Then bring on the light and the darkness will go away. Thus, unless he's particularly told you otherwise, I'd suggest that on the evidence before us, you're doing exactly the opposite of what Maharaji wants. Indeed, pursuant to your very own experiences, you may in fact be simply following your mind here. What do you say to that? Tell me, Mariah, whose idea is this site really? Has Maharaji given it the nod at least? If not, how do you know you're doing the right thing? How do you know that there's a 'need for it'? I first heard of Maharaji in 1971. He was probably 13 or 14. A member of my family had received Knowledge and I was concerned for him. I was worried that he had fallen prey to yet another cult after seeing the one we had grown up in for what it was. I know first hand about 'group think', and also about charismatic leaders who convince you to follow their vision without regard for your own. I know what it feels like to feel important because you are among the select few that understand 'the truth' and to have meaning in your life because there is something to dedicate it to. I also know what it feels like to come to the point where these claims and beliefs fall apart and you look at years of life that suddenly seem wasted. The emptiness is close to terrifying. I know too what it is like to find in that emptiness the slightest hint of a sense of self, apart from belief and the corroboration of others and to understand that it is enough to proceed with in life. I came to value that before I met Maharaji. So I have never since been eager to become a 'follower' of anyone. It took me seven years to even feel free to listen to what Maharaji was saying. And frankly, when I did, it was not what he was saying that touched me. What happened to all your hard-earned skepticism? For seven years you exposed yourself to a siren call you ultimately succumbed to. If that's true, Mariah, you wouldn't be the first person who made the same mistake twice in one lifetime. Now, to be fair, you just have to admit that maybe, just maybe, I'm right. YOU can't judge because, as you admit, you can't trust your own mind. It's a pickle, isn't it? So what can you do? How can you proceed? Tell me if this sounds fair. You spent seven years testing the waters before you accepted Maharaji on his own terms. What possible harm could there be in reviewing those seven years openly and honestly? What if, for argument's sake, you did so and found that, over time, there were indeed tricks and pressures imposed upon you that you just didn't see, or if you did see refused to acknowledge as such, when they happened? Isn't that exactly what you asked your family member to do with respect to his cult? Was it hard to get him to open up and look back fairly? I take it you succeeded at some point. How? Think back on it, Mariah. Any parallels? From the beginning, my experience with Maharaji has been one of discovering new possibilities within myself. I have not always agreed with what he has said, nor with what people representing him have said. I consider that immaterial. So how did you feel about the fact that you were never, ever invited to express or act on that disagreement? How on earth could that be 'immaterial'? What would you ahve told your 'family member' if they'd said that about their cult leader? Wouldn't you be jumping up and down about their rationalizing like this? What's the difference? What has been consistent is that this man has encouraged me to take the time to explore a world of experience within me that is the most private and meaningful part of my life. It has given me joy, sustenance in times of pain and stress, and a steadiness that has served me well in face of numerous life challenges. You've been trained to think this. The cult conditioning is all about feeling 'appreciation' first and then working backwards. This is inane but, apparently, it works. You start on the assumption that Knowledge has been nothing but a brilliant gift in your life and work backwards. Never mind that you now live in a state bereft of self-confidence. You can turn that around and call it 'steadiness'. Call it whatever you want, I guess. After all, who's going to argue with you? Your site avoids discussion so, in the most real sense, all you're doing is taking turns preaching to the choir. You want to really talk about this? It won't be on Pia's site unfortunately. I am often the first to give up on myself. This man never has. This is an illusionary statement, like an illusionary contract. You know, something like 'I agree to pay you Tuesday if I feel like it ....' There's no real obligation. Maharaji has had many, many, many premies give up and walk away. Tell me one he's had the guts to chase after. One that he's gone out on a limb for, actually taking the time to reel back in if that were at all possible. He doesn't do that at all, in my experience because, as he knows, he simply can't justify his trip to a discriminating and skeptical mind. Can you say otherwise? If not, I'd suggest your statement is unfounded. You might like to think Maharaji's like that, you might have heard people say this about him from time to time, but, actually, nothing could be further from the truth. He has been relentless in inspiring and re-inspiring me to remember the value that I am, the specialness of being alive. What is most challenging to me about what he says is that each person must find their answers for themselves and that they can. This is not the direction of a cult leader. I know that from first hand experience. I do not set myself up as one to judge or investigate Maharaji's personal life any more than I do that of someone who is selling me a car. He offered to show me a way of turning within myself for my own enjoyment. He did. My efforts in that direction have been most worthwhile. He works hard to dismantle any belief system that I try to build up around that exploration. I don't always like it. You obviously have a lot of issues with Maharaji. Why not lay them on the table? Is it because you're only saying this much to somehow dispute the image of a cult member as someone unwilling to criticize their leader? Put your cards on the table, Mariah. Where do you draw the limits in terms of Maharaji's behaviour being none of your business? For example, what if Dettmer's first hand account of Maharaji killing the bicyclist and then orchestrating a ruse so some lowly Indian ashram premie would take the rap is true? None of your business? How do you feel about taking that position? Again, how would you have felt if your family member had said that about his cult leader? There seems to be a mechanism inside me that is constantly building systems of understanding that lull me into feeling that I have life under control. Sometimes I don't even know that I have done this. Then something he says exposes my scaffolding and puts me back to square one where I can only rely on my own experience and not ideas. He has kept his side of the bargain more consistently and dedicatedly than I could have ever asked him to. No, not at all. What's he's done is trick you into thinking he has. In fact, Maharaji made two basic promises to you as he did to all of us back in the early seventies. One was to bring you to 'god realization' or what he sometimes called that 'infinite state', a state of consciousness he claimed to enjoy and which, he said, he never came down from. Can you think of a single premie who's ever gotten there? Do you even still believe that Maharaji himself is there? Good question, huh? The second promise was to bring peace to the world. Yeah, that's right. Almost hard to talk about, isn't it, it's so far-fetched. But, here, read this, a small excerpt from the letter all premies that accompanied Maharaji's DUO Proclamation: And I challenge this, to the whole world, that by Divine United Organization, and by the Grace of Almighty Lord, and the power of Knowledge, the bliss of the Knowledge, again peace in the world can be established, in the same way as people have dreamed of, and the kingdom of heaven on this Earth will be possible and is possible, if you work together, with cooperation and in the manner I have explained to you, of Divine United Organizations. Everyone will have shelter even a small ant and then lions and goats will drink water in the same pool and will be satisfied. How can you say that Maharaji's 'kept his side of the bargain .....'? And really, Mariah, even if you found some way to possibly say just that with a straight face do you think anyone outside of the cult would ever give him that credit in the face of such a blatantly unfulfilled promise? Again, remember your family member. Are you really all that different? He has stuck around to help me stick with the freshness of each moment. I have not always remembered my own value or that of my life. I still need reminding kind, gentle, humorous or hard hitting as the case may be. I have to say that I do not know 'who' Maharaji is, and I don't care to define that. I don't know how the universe is constructed, if there is a 'creator', or a higher power. I have beliefs about that, but not knowledge. Are you free to talk about these beliefs? If so, with whom? Can you talk about them here, openly? Why not? Do they possibly ahve anything to do with Maharaji? You don't by chance think he's divine, do you? Is this a secret? Since when? What I value about Maharaji is beyond any judgement anyone can come up with about how he lives his life or what choices he has made. He does not tell me how to live my life, and I don't feel in a position to judge how he lives his. He doesn't tell you how to live your life? I'm sorry but that seems as empty a claim as that he never gives up on anyone or that he's fulfilled all his promises. I could show you a million ways that Maharaji has and contineus to tell you how to live your life. However, unless you're open-minded and fair and reasonable, you could just sluff them off this way and that. For example, I could show you all the ways Maharaji told us how to live our lives in the seventies and eighties. But to that you might say, 'oh that was then.' But then think about how thin that ice starts getting, Mariah. 'Maharaji used to tell us all sorts of things about how to live. He used to break up marriages, scare people into stayin in his monastic order lest the darkenss gobbled them up, and all that, but that was THEN'. Sounds pretty much like a cult member, doesn't it? That is the stuff of cult thinking. That is what makes me angry when I hear it. It is truly time to be afraid when fear leads governments to try to control the freedom of their people and when stone throwing replaces personal responsibility. I really hate it when anonymous premies -- what's your last name, Mariah? -- who are afraid to even openly discuss their views accuse ex-premies of avoiding personal responsibility somehow. Isn't this just another cult defense you've heard bandied about, Mariah? Care to talk about it?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:16:38 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Jim Subject: that's telling it straight up, Jim Message:

Thank god, that when you break free of Maharaji's sick, personally limiting, and very restrictive brainwashing that you can once again think for one's self.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:35:19 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Jim Subject: Great rebuttal as usual Jim Message:

You should be a lawyer...:) Do you email these replies to Pia's site or are you just posting them here hoping they read them? Just curious.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:44:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Thought about it but I'm a right-brained person Message:

No, I mail them. Tell me, Baz, isn't that too much? Maharaji clearly advises premies to avoid criticism. Nonethelss this premie decides that something must be done even as she admits that she can't trust her own mind which is always trying to jump in and control things!

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:44:54 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: The Theory of Bad Publicity Message:

A negative (ex-premies, press etc) + negative negative (such as Pia's site) = triple negative. I've done the maths, you see.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:10:42 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: send em to it IS so too. Message:

just a reminder. that's our public rebuttal arena now.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:26:07 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Disa-PIA-ring act Message:

Don't look now but it-aint-so.org is on the move! Now instead of http://it-aint-so.org it is http://www.it-aint-so.org No longer hosted by Omnis network in California, the IP resolves to 212.242.40.76, which is owned by Cybercity in Denmark (offical name store12.cybercity.dk, alias www.it-aint-so.org) Wonder why she pulled anchor and shipped the site back to Denmark? Couldn't be to avoid any possible lawsuits in the USA, could it? Nah, that's just a hateful ex-premie's cynicism!! Update your bookmarks: it-aint-so.org

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:40:54 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Very odd and bad manners too Message:

Most sites when they move, at least have a redirecting URL for a while to move loyal readers to the new site. Yet there is no redirecting URL in this case. Maybe that's because they're both 'itaintso.org' and it couldn't be done? I'm not sure. Anyway, it's bad manners to just move like that without telling people first. There's going to be a lot of disgruntled premies (how many was it, 100,000?) who will be too upset to meditate tonight because they'll think that Pia's site has gone offline and the hateful people here have won.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:36:05 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Just another Disa-PIA-ring act! Message:

I think yor hunch is right-on. If you were an EV spy/lurker on EPO, wouldn't you start putting your defense in action. Idiot EV conspirators have to let EPO THINK for them. All the talk about media is getting to them, I know. THat's why I put my opinions out there! I want them to know what I'm doing. This is getting better every day! Us cats are getting the mousey sat guru anxious. Thanks for the Update!

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:28:42 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Bazza Subject: PS ELK you need to update your link too! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 02:45:31 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bazza Subject: and EV Australia Message:

good point though, why did she do it?

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 20:39:24 (GMT) From: Henry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify Message:

When I got involved (1973) it was only the devotees who could give satsang. They would open their mouths, and they were supposedly aligned with Knowledge, MJ, God, and Truth. So whatever came out would be soaked up by the listeners as Wisdom and Truth. Sometimes people would share their own experiences, which I perceived as having more integrity. Usually what I heard was the cult belief system (party line) being regurgitated, with some personal anecdotes thrown in as a garnish. Occasionally someone would channel something that was completely off topic and the big hook would come out and drag him or her off the chair. I know I enjoyed sitting up there and getting all that undivided attention. Sometimes I couldn't remember what I said. Was I channeling? Or was I bullshitting? In Toastmasters they call it adlibbing or off the cuff speaking, when your jaw is moving and you're filling up time and hoping that it makes sense. Lastly, I dimly remember in the late 70's or early 80's that nightly satsang was no longer recommended and we were supposed to just share our own experience. I think that was around the time that we were told to not proselytize. Mahatmas and lifer devotees were supposedly more evolved so their satsang was purer. But some of the things that came out of Rawat's mouth from time to time made me question who or what he was channeling. Usually I just dismissed this problem as my own lowly ignorance, and that I would someday understand it when I became more evolved. But some of it still makes no sense! Maybe satsang was just a variant of meditation - focus on the speaker and it doesn't matter what is said. Just practice concentrating. And if it's MJ that I'm listening to, then even if I don't get the meaning, I am still reinforcing my devotion and aligning with him emotionally. And in that emotional alignment, ignorance is bliss. Whaddya think?

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 03:52:58 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Henry Subject: Justification and a sympathetic ear. Message:

Satsang was nothing more than bullshit. Got a problem? Did something not quite right? Not fulfilling your potential? Well, just satsang it away. It was nothing more than a form of brainwashing(used by the initiators, Maharaji and his wife) and a 'clearing of premies conscience' when done at the community level. Satsang was bullshit, plain and simple. Many people talked the talk but never walked the walk. Why did I ever, even for a minute, fall for it? Embarrassed but so glad it's over, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:12:39 (GMT) From: jim boeger Email: jim boeger@hotmail.com To: Henry Subject: What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify Message:

henry, if there really is such a thing as Masters, and if Ram, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc. were Masters, then the reason the world is in the state of confusion today is because in some way their message was not understood? if you believe in reincarnation, which only seems logical to me, what has happened to Arjuna, all the other people who supposedly 'recieved Knowledge' over the centuries? i have been meditating for almost thirty years. i have currently going through one of the most severe emotional upsets i have yet encountered. and i've been through too many to count. i spent four months in jail in Miami in 1980-1 for threatening to bomb the satsang hall on Biscayne Blvd. if not for the little experience i have had in meditation and personally with Maharaji, i really don't think i could have survived. just this morning i had a dream of astral creatures coming to try to get me in addition to everything else. i think satsang is sharing from your heart. it has been occurring to me for

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:36:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: Ten-foot pole Message:

Wasn't sure how to touch this, Jim. You say some pretty funny things, some pretty alarming things and some pretty sad things altogether. Curius about a few things: 1) Why do you think reincarnation's the only logical truth? Personally, I couldn't imagine anything being further from the truth. What's your thinking? 2) Why'd you want to blow up the satsang hall? 3) Have you had other violent impulses since then? 4) What's your current crisis? 5) Why are you posting here?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 16:42:55 (GMT) From: jim boeger Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ten-foot pole Message:

jim. don't have time to get into it right now. have to get ready for work. i think i post here because i feel it is service.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 17:24:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: Ten-foot pole Message:

Jim, Don't you see how your new-age / premie ideas just become grist for the mill of ridicule here? Do you really think that helps advance them in the minds of others? I don't. Besides, even more importantly for you, I guess, do you actually think m wants you to do this? That he wants you posting here on the ex-premie forum? I think he's made it pretty clear that that's not at all what he wants. Why don't you ask him?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 01:47:06 (GMT) From: Nige Email: None To: Jim Subject: At least no. (2) makes sort of sense... Message:

Why'd you want to blow up the satsang hall? Like, when they do the FULL version of Arti (Twameva Mutter and stuff), the prasad and charnamrit, the works, you're yawning and looking for your shoes but then some fucking church lady says sit down, look at me and does the appeal for community funds and how beautiful it all is, all these opoortunites and all you want to do is go home, go to bed without any sodding meddies first and not be in a cult any more... Well who wouldn't..?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:08:44 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ten-foot pole - astral creatures - no comment NT Message:

g

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:19:59 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify Message:

jim, Sorry you're going thru rough times. Hope you have friends to help you thru. Best wishes, jim Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 05:23:51 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Henry Subject: What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify Message:

Maybe satsang was just a variant of meditation - focus on the speaker and it doesn't matter what is said. Just practice concentrating. And if it's MJ that I'm listening to, then even if I don't get the meaning, I am still reinforcing my devotion and aligning with him emotionally. And in that emotional alignment, ignorance is bliss. Whaddya think? That's pretty much what I figured. I never made much sense out of 'satsang,' even Maharaji's (or should I say especially his).

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:04:33 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Reinforcing devotion or brainwashing? Message:

'...focus on the speaker and it doesn't matter what is said...' I have found it very helpful to read about other cults, especially Indian based ones regarding issues like this. Comparing the similarities helps me to demystify much. After mentioning Sai Baba in a post, I searched the internet to see what I could find. Like with Sidya Yoga, there were amazing similarities with m/k in what followers and exes (some of these were long term devotees) said. With Sai Baba, many commented on his 'materializations', thought to be proof of his divinity/avatar status, obviously an important confirmation for his devotees. Some commented on the fakery of it going unnoticed for many years by themselves and everyone else because most of the time they were focusing on his face, not his hands (except those in the inner circle who always knew what was going on and the Indian jewellers who made the divine trinkets). I'm mentioning this, not 'satsang', as it seemed to me that his devotees were having a magical/blissful experience when he did these conjurings, just like we did in satsang. Even when some saw him actually taking his gifts from under cushions and robes, they rationalized it, saying he was doing it purposefully as a test of their faith. The same with his satsangs/lectures. It seems over the years he was not consistent with recounting his rise to godhead. Did they just focus on him, and discount what was being said, because the words weren't important, just as we did? These inconsistencies didn't register with some of his followers until the sexual abuse of many young boys and men was uncovered. One comment that I could relate to was something like he probably never expected anyone to question or verify what he was saying, ie, he was beyond question. I read some of the things Sai Baba has said, and I find it baffling how anyone can get anything profound out of his ramblings. Ramblings they were to me. God-spoken, divine words of truth for his followers. Do you think they would say the same about satsang/talks of m speaking from his heart to other hearts or would they think whilst Sai Baba spoke the truth and their experience while listening proved it, m rambled with no apparent meaning? So which one is the real 'company of truth'? Asking myself questions like these helps me to place it where now IMO it belongs - a caste-orientated Indian religious cult with a smattering of Christian values thrown in. 'Satsang' was in essence just like the church Sunday service, except it was initially a nightly affair. Now it is more of a weekly occurence. I think what I experienced there was a group high, projected need and an innocent openess, leaving myself vulnerable to a slow, insidious indoctrination process.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:11:20 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Connie Subject: Good comparisons, Connie... Message:

Hi Connnie. You said: ''I have found it very helpful to read about other cults, especially Indian based ones regarding issues like this. Comparing the similarities helps me to demystify much.'' Me too. Reading about other Indian cults and guru's helped me realize how M and what he is doing is not even unique in many ways. Not even that different from it's christian equivelent in the west. Thanks for the comparison with Sai Baba, his cult is one I had not read up on.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:36:32 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Henry Subject: I think you just did Message:

They would open their mouths, and they were supposedly aligned with Knowledge, MJ, God, and Truth. So whatever came out would be soaked up by the listeners as Wisdom and Truth. I think you answered your own question here, Henry. To me, it's like the point I was trying to make in my post about Maharaji's clever little observations. When you believe something about somebody (Maharaji), or something (satsang), any little thing that's said that seems a little wise you blow way out of proportion as the wisdom of the ages. Becasue we started with the assumption that the person giving satsang was a channel for God, any little thing they said to bolster that asssumption was all we needed to prove those assumptions were correct. Not that they actually did prove it, but having been thoroughly indoctrinated into cult-think, we were of a frame of mind that we thought they did.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 21:44:32 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Henry Subject: What exactly is satsang, anyway? Please clarify Message:

Yes, I would like some serious expounding on the subject,too. Remember when it was said you could sit in a room in another country and not understand a word and you were supposedly able to get the vibe?? I never tested the theory. Has anyone? Also, I often am confused about a situation....I have this client that is permanently disabled...she is often depressed,tho her nature is to be happy,Catholic and doing things for others... but she isn't able. One day when she was particularly bummed...I couldn't help it...I broke out into what I would call 'sat sang' ---no mention of M or the techniques or even that there was a way to go inside...just some Indian stories that I thought would help her and some stories of love and beauty asosciated with the love of God that is our good fortune to be able to feel if we can put our troubles aside and sit and just want a peaceful feeling,knowing it does exist there.Blah,blah,blah. Basically, I was trying to give her some hope that she doesn't always have to be in the dumps. Well,later to my surprise she tells me she sat in her car after and said - 'This feels like the old me.' She called for another appointment two days later and wanted me to do whatever I did last time. (She normally comes in weekly.) I never have since, tho. I just didn't know how to break into sat sang with ease again.That was probably a year ago. I think of that day often. Is sat sang a heart to heart and thus genuinely inspiring? I know I always felt that way. And I never sociallized after ss...it was the old' throwing a stone in still waters' for me. One guy thought I was 'stuck up' I found out. Desparate to hang on to a feeling was more like it. Thank you, Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 00:00:06 (GMT) From: Henry Email: None To: Elaine Subject: The Heart connection is much of it Message:

Yes, I was also one of the people who didn't socialize after ss. I would try to hold on to the feeling and change and go meditate. Not just that I was a goody-two shoes. Which I was. But it actually did result in starting off meditation in a high and peaceful and more concentrated place. Anyway, sounds like you shared some heartfelt love with your client. And you provided some content that you thought would be helpful. And your sincere concern for helped her get connected somehow. Mysterious. I think therapists and counselors do this on a regular basis. I know at least 2 who have counseled me have given me their sincere help from time to time. And the content doesn't matter that much - whether it's an anecdote or a therapeutic technique, I believe the intent is what counts. I will investigate the book that Selene recommends. She seemed to be referring to just the content of satsang, rather than the emotional component. Perhaps she is referring to 'love-bombing' mentioned in book entitled 'Snapping' about cults, published in '70's. In love-bombing, the cult members surround the aspirant with lots of attention, smiles, interest, and kindness. They sort of squirt unconditional love on her or him until it gets through their boundaries. Then the aspirant feels emotionally reinforced by the cult and wants to join the family.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:16:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Henry Subject: The Heart connection is much of it Message:

Henry, When you got the sincere help fr those two people and their intent was clearly heartfelt and all - - did you still have the same feeling that you remember fr the old days and ss? I ask bec I often give heartfelt sincere advise or counseling that helps a person thru really perplexing situations for them. Somehow this was diff for her and I dare say for me also. Oh well, I'll experiment with what I would call actual ss and sincere helpful talks in the next few weeks and kind of see what I personally fiqure out. When I 'give ss' (no mention of M, or kn) something comes over me like my higher self, the angel in me is more present or something...rather than helping a person 'deal with issues' with their husband,mother or neighbor,etc. I don't know - now I'm babbling. Thank you for your response,(and PatC,too. :) Love, Elaine

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 06:33:38 (GMT) From: Henry Email: rhlohaus@hotmail.com To: Elaine Subject: Elaine, Heart connection differs from satsang Message:

Hi Elaine (and Everyone), Caveat: I am one of those “sensitive New Age guys” who’s into this heart type of stuff. Those of you who need to go take a barf break, have my permission to go elsewhere and barf. Let me try to clarify some of my theory of what satsang might be. 1. Content of satsang tends to be predictable cult stuff. 2. Sometimes (due to various factors) the experience is heartfelt and moving. 3. The people listening to satsang are supposedly meditating and focusing on the speaker, giving him or her lots of attention, or even respect, or even unconditional love. 4. The speaker could be focusing on her/his heart, or devotion to the guru. This would be different than focusing on the predictable ideas/content of satsang. 5. If the speaker is successful in focusing on heart, love, devotion, etc. (rather than ideas), and audience is supportive and receptive, perhaps something heartfelt could be transmitted by speaker and received by audience. a. Question: Would someone with a closed heart (or not open emotionally) notice anything, even if others had a heartfelt experience? b. Question: Wouldn't a hearfelt communication be similar to a 12 step meeting or someone speaking in front of supportive friends or family? 6. I am one of those 'sensitive New Age guys' who notices when I come from my heart and when others come from their hearts. I think that some of this sensitivity had to do with years of attentive focus in satsang. 7. One of the negative effects of this was taking whatever mj said into my heart, surrounding it with love and devotion, and trying to follow it. This put his words or ideas on a higher footing than my own common sense, or my own ideas. I guess that's what devotees do to the words of a guru. 8. Therapists and counselors have to deal with 'projection' all the time, in which the client puts them on a pedestal, and gives the therapist's opinions more power or weight than the clients. Often the therapist is viewed as a mother or father figure. At least herapists have techniques to end or modify the projection, or at least refer the client elsewhere. 9. I made the mistake of keeping mj and his words on that pedestal for many years. Ongoing projection and using him as a parent figure who knew 'more than' little old me. 10. A lot of my recovery from the cult is based on taking mj off the pedestal, and giving more power and weight to my own common sense and my own ideas and intuitions. 11. As far as my experience with the 2 counselors (neither of them were p's or ex's), I perceived their sincere interest in wanting to help me. I visited them separately, at different times in my life. a. One gave some good advice (techniques in dealing with my family). I appreciated her sincerity. b. The other actually encouraged me (or seemed to transmit some energy or hope or encouragement). This seems more analogous to the experience you had with your client. 12. My guess is that you have learned how to come from your heart and transmit energy to people, and that you actually (a) came from your heart (b) came from a place of love and concern for your client (c) said things that were aligned with those feelings, i.e., your words were aligned with your feelings and your intention, and (d) somehow she was nudged emotionally and intellectually and wound up in a better place. It also sounds like she likes you and was open to you both emotionally and intellectually. 13. I don’t think this is the same thing as satsang. Maybe some of the intellectual or emotional focus you learned from the practice of satsang helped you do this. But I think you somehow gave her some encouragement and love, and she received it. 14. I’ve gotten into trouble as mentioned above by opening my heart to people such as mj who were not good for me. Before you go around opening your heart and squirting love on the wretched of the universe, learn how to close it and protect it too. If you want my perspective on this send me an email, ‘cause I think I’m getting off topic here. Thanks for raising these issues - made me think. Henry

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:57:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Good analysis, Elaine! Message:

Yes, it probably is the angel in you. Good thinking. And you're a counsellor, right? You help people to understand things?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:17:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jim Subject: Good analysis, Elaine! Message:

No,I'm not a counseler - I do physical therapies on injured or disabled people mostly. In fact I preface most of what I say with -' I'm not a therapist or anything'...to cover my butt. I often say the opposite of what people's therapists have told them. So, no, I don't help people to understand things. I have absolutely no training at all absolutely none and my friends (counselors) seem to be constantly teaching and correcting me.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:48:25 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Elaine Subject: The Heart connection IS real satsang to me... Message:

Elaine, you said: ''When I 'give ss' (no mention of M, or kn) something comes over me like my higher self, the angel in me is more present or something...rather than helping a person 'deal with issues' with their husband,mother or neighbor,etc.'' It sounds like you mean speaking encouragement to someone when you feel inspired to do so. I've always thought of heartfelt words of encouragement as satsang, even if M or K were not mentioned. The churchladies would say if M & K are not mentioned, then it isn't satsang. That's because in M's World of Knowledge, good feelings are supposed to be attributed to the Master as the source. In truth, they belong to us all, as human beings, to share as we like, without being politically correct. Isn't it interesting, that in the Atlanta propagation video, which is now on a DVD and is the star resource for the expensive KIT (Knowledge Information Training) seminar's premies are paying to attend, M said that when you are feeling most inspired, when you have that warm fuzzy feeling, that is the most DANGEROUS time to talk about Knowledge and the Master? That was when the drip became a damburst for me, it was the straw that broke the camel's back. Now it is also the centerpiece of M's propagation efforts. I prefer the Warm Fuzzies over cold and expensive DVD based training seminars anytime.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:04:53 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Chuck Sprague Subject: The Heart connection IS real satsang to me... Message:

I didn't know that about the DVD thing. M can be such an asshole sometimes. He is unbelievable.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:22:16 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Yes, Elaine. DVD satsang costs 135 bucks nowadays Message:

Only the rich can afford to be PWKs nowadays which leaves Jim Boeger (whom you expressed concern for and whom I know personally) out in the cold because he is disabled and poor. M's world is now becoming more and more a cold and cruel farce.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:08:43 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Henry Subject: To Henry and Elaine:Satsang - The company of truth Message:

Henry, all these old Hindu words tend to obscure and mystify something that is quite ordinary. Satsang literally means company of truth. Originally it meant keeping the company of people who were ethical and not thieves, liars etc. But like the word yoga (which originally meant the same as religion - to unite or bind oneself to goodness) it began to take on layers of theological meaning. By the time it got to the Sant Mat/Radhasoami/Satsangi cults (from which Rev Rawat descends) it basically had the same meaning as the modern charismatic (and ancient) Christians use of the Greek word ''agape'' or love feast - a revivalist meeting. Elaine, when I first went to live in the Indian ashram in South Africa I did not understand a word of Gujerati, but the vibe was defintiely there. Satsang for the Indians meant getting together to sing the praises of god and guru through song (bhajans) and dance (gharbas) and it was a light-hearted joyful affair unlike many western satsangs which could be heavy and preachy. I used to love Indian satsang and was shocked when I came to the US and had to sit through diatribes by Herr David Schmitz et al. Like everything else that Rev Rawat has touched he has turned gold to dross. Simple gyanyoga for mental health and peace of mind was debased into primitive, superstitious ''Knowledge.'' Satsang was degraded into his inane blatherings. He basically turned satsang into personality-cult guru worship indoctrination. One of the reasons that people still ''feel'' something from his satsang is because he mixes spiritual truisms with his own garbage. But mostly it has to do with beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Rawat Senior started the rot. I used to think Shri Hans was saner than his son but I have been rereading Hans Yog Prakash and the man was probably also a dithering drunk like his son. But when you start out with as debased and primitive a religion as Hinduism and bhakti-guru-worship it is hard to clean it up that much. Give me Forum Five anyday. There's more truth spoken here than I heard in 28 years from Rawat.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 05:23:06 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: PatC Subject: To Henry and Elaine:Satsang - The company of truth Message:

One of the reasons that people still ''feel'' something from his satsang is because he mixes spiritual truisms with his own garbage. But mostly it has to do with beauty being in the eye of the beholder. I think it also has to do with group dynamics. Anytime people gather in one place for an event the energy level goes up and a vibrancy ignites the air which everybody's immersed in. This is true for any kind of event, whether it's satsang, a rock concert, a party at somebody's house, or in extreme cases when the energy level rises to fever pitch, a British soccer match. But when you've got a bunch of people gathering because they think they're Saviour is about to appear on stage, the energy level goes even higher than that. Well, maybe not, but it's up there. It's all just the dynamics of a group gathering. In all honesty, who ever felt the same level of energy just reading a satsang by Maharaji from And It Is Divine compared to when they were actually there to hear it? Some people might think it was because of Maharaji's actual presense, but if you take away the crowd, I don't think his presense would have half the effect. It's like seeing a celebrity in person. The effect is nowhere's near what it is when you see the person on stage or in film compared to if you bump into them on the street. Maharaji's no different. He's just another celebrity.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 09:26:31 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jerry Subject: The company of truth- group dynamics Message:

You said: ''Anytime people gather in one place for an event the energy level goes up and a vibrancy ignites the air which everybody's immersed in. This is true for any kind of event, whether it's satsang, a rock concert, a party at somebody's house, or in extreme cases when the energy level rises to fever pitch, a British soccer match. But when you've got a bunch of people gathering because they think they're Saviour is about to appear on stage, the energy level goes even higher than that. Well, maybe not, but it's up there.'' I was just telling Chuck and Andy about how much I enjoyed the first Kissimee festival of 78 when 15,000 (supposedly) of us gathered in an alligator infested swamp to worship the living god. I spent most of the time in the group showers ogling the divine beauties there but the vibe was crackling. I even enjoyed the wobble dancing and circumambulatory darshan. I never did like Rev Rawat nearly as much as I loved the premies. Satsang is what brought me to it and when it went so did I. I'm a sociable person and enjoyed satsang more than anything else. I loved the good vibes. Those have been replaced with sterile corporate KITS (Knowledge Information Training Seminars.) I went to festivals to be with the premies more than anything. God how I loved premies (as much and whenever I could.) But as you say it all had to do with focus. ''Whenever two or more are gathered together in my name...'' The whole idea of a master is so undemocratic that is was inevitable that he got rid of satsang. If he had not we might be sitting around now talking about the effects of certain stimuli on the brain chemistry - a lot like FV and he would be back in India taking care of women's and children's rights as any responsible wealthy Indian should do.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:23:25 (GMT) From: jim boeger Email: None To: PatC Subject: The company of truth- group dynamics Message:

Pat, are you aware that Maharaji allowed 37,000 people to be initiated in a two week visit to India last fall or this spring. (i use the word 'allowed' because that makes sense to me at the moment.)..... and he said recently that there are 60,000 aspirants now in the Delhi area alone.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:49:56 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: jim boeger Subject: The company of truth - creative statistics Message:

Yes, Jim, I know the figures. If you have ever known Indians then you will know that they go to every visiting guru to get his shaktipat and can be initiated by hundreds of gurus. It also helps if the guru brings money from the west for free food. The figures are essentially meaningless but I do concede that Indians are a pious bunch and love charismatic revivalist preachers like Rev Rawat. I don't. But I did love satsang, especially the Indians' version. It was so democratic and sociable and friendly compared with the KITS (Knowledge Information Training Seminars) like the one they're having over in Tiburon. Were you invited? It costs $135. Can you afford to pay for official ''synchronized'' satsang nowadays? Aren't you bored with all that sterile corporate cult crap yet? Or are you just having fun hanging with the Lone Ranger premies in the Haight? Let's face it they are at least alive and kicking which is more than can be said about the ''synchronized'' PWK church ladies of Elan Vital.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 22:14:37 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Elaine Subject: I *was* serious Message:

Have you even looked at the excerpts from the book or susan's posts? So you never socialized who cares? It was quite simple: we fed each other the same 'vibe' as you want to call it, and I call it the same beliefs night after night for years. If the feeling was so real it would not cause a desperation to hold on to it. It would be there ..you know, your breathe and all that. As for your healing or whatever it was - no comment. Wasn't there. But I WAS at satsang all those nights .

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:04:13 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Selene Subject: I *was* serious Message:

No one implied that you weren't serious,Selene - just wanted more. No I haven't 'even' read that book or any posts fr Susan you may be referring to. 'never socialized after ss who cares?' Well, Henry shared his comments that I appreciated.So the answer to that would be Henry. 'If the feeling was so real it would not cause a desperation to hold on to it. It would be there...' I simply disagree. Bad feelings are 'so real' - they slip away all the time.(And sometimes I actually try to hold onto them - usually so I won't fall for someone's 'line/lies'again. But, darn it the anger slips away anyway.) Love for a person is so real and it slips away sometimes. The warm fuzzies I felt in ss were so real - and they also slipped away, period. My focus was not on my breath all the time. Focus is the key to any success,it seems to me. Like right now I'm not focusing 100% so I may not be making myself clear,sorry. Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:17:51 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Elaine Subject: it's Father's Day Message:

I am excused from all things except writing bizarre stories. Bad feelings are indeed hard to get rid of. Satsang was a dream of Wanting to Believe.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:28:12 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Selene Subject: it's Father's Day Message:

Selene, I don't know your exact stance on Maharaji - just that you're an exe and all. But, I'm curious you're sentence that ss was a dream of 'Wanting to believe' sounded so sad.(That's just how it hit me.) Do you believe in God and all that still? And that we can feel his love or grace or whatever? I think others on this Forum have expressed that they are athiests. None of my business, you don't have to respond. Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:33:08 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Elaine Subject: don't know what I believe Message:

I cannot access it and am not wanting to. As a result of recently exiting a cult I believed in for over 25 years I hate all things new age and withdraw as soon as I feel it is being pushed upon me. And they do push it believe me. Perhaps with good intentions because they mistake my weird mood swings and whatnot for 'sadness that they can cure'. I do not want to say I'm an athiest just yet. Time will tell.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:36:40 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Selene Subject: Gotcha nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 20:50:11 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Henry Subject: it helped the formation of the belief system Message:

Everyone sitting around feeling all warm and fuzzy and saying they all believed the same things. It created a sense of community or us and them. It was very effective really I think M blew it to take it away. Then there was all the after-satsang socializing. Susan reference to the book Cults: Faith, Healing, and Coercion by Marc Galanter are a good example of what I am saying. She said it much better. Didn't see the thread in inactive but it may be there.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 03:25:51 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Selene Subject: It was almost magic at times Message:

Giving or better; participating in satsang could be almost magic at times. Actually I do recall understanding the meaning of a satsang from a spanish speaking premie in 73 in Houston,73. I had the same experience once with mataji in Hindi. I think it was accidentally tapping into a state which Steiner calls 'Intuition' (he uses this word in a completely different fashion than normally in English (or German). This is a state of understanding completely beyond thoughts and forms , which does exist but is almost impossible to grasp because we are much to vague to hold on to (because there is nothing to hold on to) actually this was supposed to be shown by the guru!! Snapping into this state had NOTHING to do with m. or k. but with a rare state of clarity and receptivity. I had it at my last gathering in Brussels (88?) were I was doing simultanious translation English-Dutch. there was a point that I was a sentence AHEAD of m. This was my definitive break with m and k. because in a strange way I entered a kind of higher dimensional state of mind( because of the translation I was getting from word-image-understanding-image-word to hear-understand-say,) and at that level of abstract understanding, normally unattainable I was able to compare my level of understanding with his. At that point it was clear without a doubt that indeed , his understanding was very limited. I did perceive however that m is almost physically feeding on the devotion, and that he can somehow throw this back in a charisma feedback loop. I know that this post might sound complicated or vague, but I have tried to be as meticulous as possible about some of the most crucial and spiritual moments in my life

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:35:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Bob Subject: It was almost magic at times Message:

Bob, What a post. Thank you. You were a sentence ahead of M. Wow,What a great day that must have been for you. I respect anyone that refers to Rudolph Steiner,btw. I thought of having 'contact highs' in the old drug hippie days when I read your post.They were VERY real alright. Thanks again, Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:21:11 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bob Subject: not vague Message:

It was like that. I remember. my present day interpretation of it, though, is groupthink reinforced on a regular basis. We were NOT thinking critically that is one thing for sure :)

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 13:46:01 (GMT) From: Henry Email: None To: Bob Subject: It was almost magic at times Message:

Hi Bob, Perhaps you entered an altered state of consciousness during your translation experience. I believe it's possible. You also made an important point: 'I did perceive however that m is almost physically feeding on the devotion, and that he can somehow throw this back in a charisma feedback loop.' It is apparant to me that mj enjoys basking in the attention of thousands of devotees. Sort of like a world-class performer or politician or celebrity -- maybe Rawat is the Liberace or Pavarotti of the spiritual circuit. He sure acts like a prima donna! Best wishes, Henry

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 23:00:33 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Henry Subject: other factors contributed to the bliss Message:

Or the name Bill Clinton comes to mind, too, when we speak of charisma!! HA HA! Regarding satsang 'magic' and all that, in addition to the groovy group dynamics, the contact high and all that, let us not forget that many of these 'transcendent experiences' came about because we were: *sleep deprived and completely exhausted *eating no protein, that spacey feeling of bliss was hunger for me half the time! *very very receptive to states of bliss (vs. being receptive to mean ol' Mr. Mind) We were like heroin junkies, so we were in the groove of needing our fix, and very focussed on that. On a lighter note, this is a Barbara Bush quote, no shit. 'I know Bill Clinton is a liar, because no man ever forgets oral sex.'

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:50:45 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Henry Subject: It was almost magic at times Message:

Henry, Point of interest... One time at a program security was asked to stand right up to the closest railing and one could face M singing Arti and the next would face the crowd singing Arti. In a few minutes someone would tap us and we would alternate. The crowd was also holding candles this time as I recall. Well,...Holy Shit...i faced the crowd of thousands and my God - the experience was just mind-boggling.Really. I truly felt as if all this love from the audience was passing THROUGH me and then going up to M - which may have been 20-5 feet away. I savored that experience like the finest wine and took it in fully,I feel. I would then turn around and M would be sitting with this smile like he was eating up and digesting all this love that now I understood was actually this Real 'thing' that almost could be weighed...it was so palpable. Maybe a rock star feels alot of the same thing. I sure am not the one to know. I mean Elvis got panties...must have been something similar,I don't know. But, it was a FIRST for me to be looking at what M was looking at and feeling the waves of such soulful love pass in and thru me. I thank God I was a meditator at the time and could handle it. (As opposed to those times I was a friutcake at programs just sitting in my seat doing nothing but be miserable.) Love, Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 04:13:25 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Bob Subject: It must have been Message:

I had it at my last gathering in Brussels (88?) were I was doing simultanious translation English-Dutch. there was a point that I was a sentence AHEAD of m. C'mon, Bob, do you really expect us to believe that you were translating a sentence ahead of the speaker? How do you figure you were able to do that? Do you really believe you did it? Sorry, but I don't. Maybe you really think you did, but personally, I don't think that can be done. Sorry.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:39:09 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: it's possible, but not magical Message:

Hi cause I've heard so much of M's speeches, it is possible for me, to be two ore threee sentences ahead of him. Once you are in the same rythm and in tune, you know before how the song goes on. And the most fantastic thing is, I can nearly tell what M will say on the next programm. I'm so familiar with the repertoire. ciao .....wolfie

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:53:03 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Jerry Subject: It must have been Message:

But Jerry, That's not so hard - probably many of us here knew you were going to write what you just did....Love ya ;) Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:03:58 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Jerry Subject: It must have been Message:

I believe I did. There is a state of mind where even the slightest hint of information can trigger understanding. Likewise they did some expiriments with LSD in the 60s where the subjects were shown text with only the lower 10 % of the letters visible. Normally people are not able to read this, too many combinations possible. The subjects were able to read this easily. Likewise this experience in simultanious translation would be possible. Another point I will make that one needs only a minute hint when translating rawat this way: the content of his 'discourse ' is so minimal that you don't need to halfway ascend to heaven to pick up on those clues mentioned. All this does not diminish the intensity of the experience. Logically I think science rules, I am agnostic and even try to balance my checkbook! Emotionally, especially thinkin back to those days, I think more magical or like a child. I can describe those experiences in both ways, both true.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 14:23:06 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Bob Subject: It must have been Message:

Hi Bob - I hear what you're saying about 'knowing' what M is going to say next, and both the scientific and metaphysical implications of that. In one book I read, the author called it 'being on bar time' - in the US, bars always set their clocks five minutes ahead so they can get everyone out before closing time! I find M's discourses to be extremely predictable - I am not surprsed that you could anticipate what he was going to say - by whatever means :). Anyway, I enjoyed reading about your experience, and am glad it helped you break free. Take care, Katie

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:40:53 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jerry Subject: no- i've been there too. its real Message:

if you want the old metaphysical explanation, it goes like so: everything originates in the light, and steps down into progressiviely grosser levels of vibration and manifestation on its way to appearing here in the material realm. the only two dimensions in which time matter and things 'take time' to occur, are in the material, and one level up, in the astral, or emotional. On every higher or finer plane, things take no time at all. they are instantaneous. same with space. the only two dimensions where space can be said to have impact and affect how things take place is in the material and the adtral planes. in all others, space is not, time is not, so all are present, included, aware, and all commune with all of existence in real time without delay. for humans, those dimensions cover the God plane, the universal, the spiritual, the causal, the mental the emotional/astral, and the material. There are beings who have never come any lower than the universal. others never any lower than the spiritual. some have never wished to experience anything lower than the mental. some have never come into the material plane and only know as far as the astral/emotional. But anyone who has decided to experience all the way down to this material plane, is also still wired to all the higher planes before this one, while living here too. and loss of the body or loss of consciousness of the body (sleep, dreaming, coma, nirvana, death) simply shifts the awareness back to whatever plane one's awareness wishes to go to. Since communication is instantaneous in the mental, spirit, universal and god planes, and takes time only here in the material and emotional, it is wuite easy for bob--or anyone--to be right on cue, getting the understanding BEFORE it can be spoken, and translating it from that plane rather than wait till it reached his material ears in this plane and then retranslate to dutch. In fact, the act of talking at all is an act of translation, because all understanding is received in a realm without spoken or written language. the so called 'telepathy' of 'aliens' or religious visions or acid visions occur in realms where the language your parents taught you cannot reach. spoken language is an artifact of the material plane. in the earlier or finer planes, communication is shared by feeling, image, empathy, knowing, projection and holisitic impression. ask any pregnant mom if her unborn baby reacts to her feelings, thoughts, moods, etc. now split a gut laughing. but i have been there. its all true.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:42:35 (GMT) From: creativejani Email: None To: janet Subject: I LIKE YOUR POST - never mind what the cynical Message:

other ex's may think, reacting against everything they ever heard in satsang and so just as much trapped by m's cult as ever! I've experienced some of the instant communication on a mental level, and also seen my thoughts manifest almost magically in zero time, so as far as I'm concerned it's all true - and much more interesting than ranting on about how the only thing that exists is the material world - there is no god - bladibladibla. I'm right with you Janet, we still need wisdom and understanding. Thanks for your post. Jane

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 21:53:45 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: creativejani Subject: You have to choose, Jane Message:

You want to squint and enjoy your spiritual fantasies or do you really want 'wisdom and understanding'? Wihtout discrimination and scientific scrutiny, there's a whole, wild colorful world to enjoy. Elves, reincarnation, gurus, gods -- you name it. On the other hand, most of this stuff, if not all, is just the product of peoples' imagination. How disappointing, I'm sure, for whoever hold such beliefs. Hate to disappoint you. :)

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:56:24 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: janet Subject: no- i've been there too. its real Message:

It's quite clear to me that there's a lot more going on in heaven & earth than meets the eye , so I believe Bob's story of second guessing the speaker . I have had a few inexplicable 'psychic' experiences none of which was connected to my invovlement with Capt. R , indeed one of them was to do with a hat. Banal or what. I think that trying to construct a 'rational' explanation for phenomena which 'can't exist' but as many people know does , just leaves you looking like a loony . I mean I can't understand why when something happens that blows your mind you've got to construct a whole mental architecture with its foundations built on sand to find a reason for it. 'You' Janet doesn't mean just you lots of others too . PS. you're very good at language , don't downgrade it , whatever you say you're stuck on the material plane. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 00:49:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: no- i've been there too. its real Message:

I mean I can't understand why when something happens that blows your mind you've got to construct a whole mental architecture with its foundations built on sand to find a reason for it. It's called 'trying to understand'. What else you gonna do?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:46:15 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: janet Subject: You actually believe this fairy tale? Message:

Where'd you get this bizarre philosophy? Where are the elves?

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Date: Tues, Jun 19, 2001 at 04:17:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey, Janet, don't you want to educate us? Message:

Funny how you get all quiet at times like this. Won't be the first time, will it?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:55:10 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: janet Subject: Okay, Janet, what am I going to type next? Message:

Janet, If what you're saying is true, then what Bob had to do was somehow read Maharaji's mind before he spoke what was on it. So, even before Maharaji knew what he was going to say, Bob did. Sounds farfetched but.... if you say so. Don't expect me to believe it though. You have to admit that it's a bit much to expect of people to believe such claims as these. But one thing that has been proven in scientific experiments is that consciousness of our actions happens only after the action has begun. For example, when you type on your keyboard, you may think that you made a conscious decision as you were striking the keys. Actually, in tests performed, it's been shown that our conscious actions are really only happenning after the fact. Subconsciously, you made a decision to strike the keys for as much as a second before you were even aware of your decision. Weird, but that's what the tests show. But in Bob's case, he's claiming that he was aware of somebody else's decision before that person was. THAT there is no evidence for, whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, Bob, as you, are imagining things. Again, sorry.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:20:25 (GMT) From: One more point Email: None To: Jerry Subject: what next? Message:

One more point , and this one is easy to verify. It is about dogs, your own, relatively well trained dog. I have noticed when taking the dog out for a walk, the moment you decide to get up, mentioning you are going out or not, going out on a regular schedule or as an extra the dog instantly springs up for action. Just saying that you are going, or rattling the leash, or going to the door-without considering to take them out- might lift one ear at best. Wether this is caused by some unknown PSI capability or just a highly tuned perception of their masters intent by reading minute clues is irrelevant. It shows that this capability does exist, although, for humans, not on a daily basis.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 20:25:58 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: One more point Subject: Dogs don't have esp Message:

Bob, I would say a dog knows when it's master is going to take it for a walk by storing memories of what the signals are that mean it's about to go for a walk, nothing more. If what you're suggesting by this is that you've become so attuned to what Maharaji is going to say in his satsang that you know what he's going to say next, well, that's possible, I suppose. But if that's the case, that does squash whatever mumbo jumbo new age ideas anybody has about being able to predict what somebody is going to say next, doesn't it?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 19:59:21 (GMT) From: creativejani Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Dogs Do have esp, and it's been studied. Message:

I am continually disappointed by the ignorance here maquerading as 'realism'. There have been studies on dogs, filmed when they are away from their owners (left in the house with a video camera running and showing the current time onscreen) and it's been shown that whenever the owner starts making moves to return to the house (also being recorded on video with current time recorded on screen), at varying times, the dogs get up and go to the door, window or whatever, to wait for them. No fixed schedule, too far away to have any contact except ESP, psychic awareness or whatever other label you care to use. This isn't new but of course it hasn't yet passed into the generally accepted view of what's possible, so to many people it's not.With my own dog, I used to think of going out, and see him immediately sit up, looking at me expectantly, before I had twitched a muscle, and I had no regular schedule then. In fact, my memory was so bad that it was only seeing him react like that which reminded me that two seconds ago I'd decided to go out. And so I had to, even though I'd have probably changed my mind and not bothered left to my own devices, being naturally lazy. Just because something can't yet be explained, doesn't make it untrue, and the desire to learn and know is a worthwhile one which is contantly being ridiculed on this forum by certain ex's. You're just showing your ignorance, hey, it reminds me of a story I once heard about two frogs, right? There was this frog which lived in a well, and he thought that the whoole world just went as far as the walls of his well...oh, well, perhaps you know the rest, I heard it several hundred times over the years. Seems appropriate here, though!

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 23:51:31 (GMT) From: creativeJimmy Email: None To: creativejani Subject: Well that's that then, I guess Message:

Jane, There's a really good article on the CSICOP site (skeptics who put out 'The Skeptical Inquirer') by one Jonathan Adler entitled Open Minds and the Argument from Ignorance. In a nutshell, Adler argues that Arguments from ignorance fallaciously infer that since a hypothesis has not been disproved, it is reasonable to believe that hypothesis or regard it with an open mind.' Here's the site address: http://www.csicop.org/si/9801/adler.html Here are a few paragraphs from the piece: The request to keep an open mind appears mild, but it is a wolf in sheep's clothing. 'Open-minded' trades upon the same ambiguity we found in the use of 'possible.' The open mind being called for is an openness to any hypothesis that has the bare possibility of truth. Why shouldn't we be so open? Why do we need the notion of serious possibility in the first place? Wouldn't our search for the truth only be improved by not restricting in advance what hypotheses we consider? The answer is that our time and resources are limited. There are vastly more hypotheses possible (consistent with our evidence) than can be studied. Closed-mindedness, in the sense of ruling out vast numbers of hypotheses prior to examination, is a precondition of any serious empirical inquiry. Yet, no hypothesis is forever banned. We may subsequently reconsider, as has often occurred in science, a hypothesis once thought ridiculous. But when we do, there will be a preliminary stage in which we find it minimally plausible. Does this make sense to you?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 04:18:41 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Dogs PROBABLY don't have esp Message:

the way I think nowadays I would say Yes, BUT: Humans, unlike dogs are normally not able to process very subtle hidden clues. I think the easiest explanation of a phenomenon is most likely true. However, for a human to get to that state, it does involve a feeling of very hightened awareness and clarity, not unlike the moment of insight seeing through a mathematical dilemma, but longer lasting. This state might actually be better described in magical terms than in exact ones. But you are right if you do not need thoughtwaves to explain a situation, thoughtwaves PROBABLY don't exist. A theoretical question: suppose thoughtwaves do exist, what is their maximum velocity?

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 10:55:42 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Bob Subject: Dogs PROBABLY don't have esp Message:

Humans, unlike dogs are normally not able to process very subtle hidden clues. Tell that to your wife or your girlfriend. A woman's intuition, y'know. I think there's something to it. A theoretical question: suppose thoughtwaves do exist, what is their maximum velocity? Why theorize on something like that? This is where 'magical' thinking goes awry. You take a premise on something that is doubtful and build upon it. Be careful you don't forget that the premise (ie. thoughtwaves) are just imaginary. Otherwise you might start thinking you've really determined what speed they travel at as well. Ask Janet. She's developed a whole theory on this stuff, convinced it's all real. According to Janet, thoughtwaves travel at no speed at all.

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 12:15:43 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Thoughtwaves (increasingly OT) Message:

I said SUPPOSED. It is a math question not a physics question. I believed in thought waves for all my premie years and then some. Not now. However I did try to think out theories how fast they would travel when I still believed. It is an interesting exercise for the mind, which shows that correct thinking holds up, even when the underlying theory does not. My thinking might have been flawed, but I came up with any speed greater than zero, also warpspeed (plus lightspeed) but not infinite. (Clue: think of a lighthouse and about 2 wavefronts striking each other at an oblique angle) please don't be annoyed. Onew more point: I greatly enjoy Janet's contributions. OK I don' t agree with her cosmology, but she is a far better writer than I am!

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:01:35 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: One more point Subject: what next? 20/20 report Message:

Yes, did you see the 20/20 report done in England I think. Where a dog is videoed for say 6 hours while it's owner is with a reporter. At a specified time the reporter says ok - you can head to your home and dog now. As she gets up to drive home the dog gets up from his little rug and starts waiting for her at the door even tho it takes 15 min for her to reach home. It was very cool. Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:23:02 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: One more point Subject: I am Bob, not 'one more point' nt Message:

nt

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