Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 04:47:33 (GMT)
From: Jun 29, 2001 To: Jul 08, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Moley Channelling Larkin -:- Channelling Larkin, P -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 13:07:17 (GMT)
__ Moley -:- BTW This is genuine Larkin - not moi! -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:50:34 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Far easier to shovel wet spaghetti up a wildcat's -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:55:48 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- I've Got Another Book Idea -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 13:37:49 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Can you reprint the original as well? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 14:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ Larkin -:- 'This be the verse' -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 14:14:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks - this is a 'family holiday' here! (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:12:45 (GMT)

PatC -:- latest email from EV: satellite broadcast -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:09:33 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Another Book In The Making -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 13:04:25 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Stream of consciousness flowing here now -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:49:38 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Shut up, you ignoramus NT -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:36:41 (GMT)
__ __ MK -:- I don't see the point of you saying that Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:15:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- This isn't 'Groundhog Day' (the movie) NT -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- But it's always 'Groundhog Day' for premies -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:18:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Sounds Like A Fucking Nightmare To Me -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- I've Got A Better Idea -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:37:44 (GMT)
__ bill-ah, Brian, remind me -:- again, why cant I pummel sandy?........nt -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- why cant you pummel sandy, bill? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:02:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- ha ha ha killer line Katie............nt -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:10:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- You deserved it :) -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Happy 4th July -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- The FA runs the forum, John, not me -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 13:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- why cant I pummel sandy?You don't pull yr punches -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Good to see you Sandy. -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Good to see you too, John -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:17:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Pat, you are such a flamer, yes, pun intended... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'm a flaming liberal agnostic ethical humanist -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Pat -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:57:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Enter the sandyman -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:23:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- bill, did it ever occur to you... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- from gopi to 'egocentric', the problem is? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:11:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Good stuff, Bill. I hope Sandy reads it. -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 07:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- About the preaching -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:45:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Stream of consciousness sermon. Nice Pastor! -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:54:11 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- meditate shmeditate -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:53:34 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- meditate shmeditate -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Course JC taught meditation ... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:09:31 (GMT)

Joe -:- Why does 'premie' = Intellectually Dishonest? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:03:05 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- He's worried about the people who care... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- difference: premies who know and those who don't -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:15:50 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Why does 'premie' = Intellectually Dishonest? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 00:04:28 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- It's the rubbery Hindu ethics and also having an -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ PatC channeling Dr Aziz -:- ''But what does man's truth have to do with it?'' -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 00:40:40 (GMT)

PatC -:- Special Offer till July 31! Introductory video -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 18:09:27 (GMT)
__ Mr. Williams -:- I guess I was wrong about you -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:00:48 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Mr. W - Have you forgotten what your Lord said??? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ Jehovah's Witnesses -:- We want you to come work for us... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:07:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jehovah's Atheist -:- I'm confused -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Brilliant! This your joke? NT -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:09:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve M -:- wish it was mine but nope it ain't nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jehovah -:- TRussssst in meeeeeeeee -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:45:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ The Mormons -:- No, we want MW to come work for us.. -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ EV(not affilated w/M) -:- Sorry Guys We Own Him -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:03:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hari Krishnas -:- Shucks. WE wanted him to work at the airport. NT -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:38:20 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- happy Independence Day to you too, Mr Williams -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:50:09 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Feelings, whoa, whoa, whoa, feelings ... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 18:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Da da di do. Welcome to the Twilight Zone -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Or is that the Toilet Zone? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Toilet Zone? Talk about potty humor -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:22:47 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Love And Lust And Shri Hans -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:51:08 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- A Poll -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 21:12:39 (GMT)
__ Louella Parsnip -:- It's all MASTER-bation... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:30:57 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Following a Master, and mastering one's self -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:42:36 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Thomas a Kempis was not canonized because -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:49:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- I saw the relic fingernails of Catherine of Siena+ -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:56:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- Thomas a Kempis was not canonized because -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Chief Sealth [Seattle] speech was a white forgery -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:40:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Forgery, frauds, deceptions, bad translations.... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- deafness left Beethoven depressed. + Jesus' words: -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:49:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I knew that! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 21:16:57 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Lots of updates on the 'Best of' page! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:18:50 (GMT)
__ Henry -:- Thanks JM! Very helpful indeed (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:19:06 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Lots of updates on the 'Best of' page! Thanks, J-M -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:35:24 (GMT)

Joe -:- Ed from the UK is a LIAR -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:51:26 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- I would say that Ed is either confused -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:43:15 (GMT)
__ michael donner -:- Ed from the UK is a LIAR -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:05:03 (GMT)
__ __ Richard II -:- Ed from the UK is a LIAR -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 00:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ The Mormons -:- Richard 11, we need you to propagate for us -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:20:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- Ed from the UK is a LIAR -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:02:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- JM. another post for saving here....nt -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- Ed from the UK is a LIAR -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Henry -:- Thank you Mike -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:13:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- A beautiful post, donner. thank you -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:28:02 (GMT)

Suchabanana -:- WHAT MATHATMA SATYANAND TOLD ME... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:58:18 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- WHAT MATHATMA SATYANAND TOLD ME... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Yeah, we accepted abuse as karmic instruction (nt -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:29:27 (GMT)
__ such -:- er, MAHATMA. [typo] (nt -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:25:43 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Such bliss! Such lila! Such a bunch of bollocks! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:47:50 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Satyanand's stories -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 14:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Nice Post -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:10:03 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- It doesn't surprise me. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:55:07 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Gary Girard. what's happened to him? (nt -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- dunno (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:29:43 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Amazing stories, guys -- tales from the crypt NT -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:02:53 (GMT)

Jim -:- What exactly does it mean to be civil here? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:45:37 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- What exactly does it mean to be civil here? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 06:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Nice analysis, Peter -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:05:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- No end to the fight . . . -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:51:19 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Wide Girl is here -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- All sacred cows will be put out to pasture -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:24:35 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- It's just different styles of personalities... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:59:53 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- As usual, a great read on things! love -- n/t -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:01:51 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- different styles...yes, Carl, nicely said -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 18:57:40 (GMT)
__ salam -:- What exactly does it mean to be civil here? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 13:14:20 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Logic VS Feeling... Why not BOTH? Whose afraid?.. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:57:41 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Most people think I am civil but I have limits -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:35:36 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Have you ever tried to get a rose to open -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:47:47 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Have you ever tried to get a rose to open -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:52:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's a bad analogy, Francesca -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Just find thier thinking funny and poke at it in -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:15:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- You asked about Lifes Great, not Forum Five -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- This morning's example -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:00:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- This example -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:44:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good thing you've dropped using verbs, Chris -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- That place would bend my mind, not thanks! n/t -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:31:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Da da di do. Welcome to the Twilight Zone n/t -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:02:41 (GMT)
__ __ Wildflower -:- Excellent Post, Francesca! nt -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 13:44:59 (GMT)
__ CW -:- What exactly does it mean to be civil here? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ CW -:- Grandiose was the word -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:24:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- And Grandoise is the man! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:38:22 (GMT)

Timmi -:- rawat's kids -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:55:26 (GMT)
__ donner -:- rawat's kids -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:06:51 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- rawat's kids -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 13:58:33 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- If your friend wants to be a dork -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- If your friend wants to be a dork -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:09:48 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Hey Timmi -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:06:30 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- rawat's kids - what do you mean? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- rawat's kids - what do you mean? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- rawat's kids - what do you mean? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:03:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- rawat's kids and your friend -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:27:45 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Krishna abuse in today's Salon Magazine -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:55:15 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- oops! subscribers only past the first 3 para (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:57:04 (GMT)

Joe -:- Purpose of the Forum and Premie/Cult Sites -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:56:54 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- You said it well, Joe -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:10:41 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- free flow of information -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:39:47 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- free flow of one-sided information -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:42:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- free flow -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- You're dead wrong, Brian. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Okay -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Damn, I missed the bloodbath and I love a good fig -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- untrue, Pat -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Hey, you siamese twins -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- when did i utter death threats? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:00:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I agree with some of what you said but -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- I agree with some of what you said but -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:12:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You are right about civility -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:31:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Civility' in this context is an empty term NT -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're right about it all. Great response. NT -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Now you're talking, Brian -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:21:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- A little dramatic, Brian -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey Francesca -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Hey Katie -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hey Gals -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:50:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey Steve -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 14:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MW -:- You must not get out much..... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:05:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- You must not get out much..... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:03:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- You must not get out much..... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- No, you're calling it like you see it ;--) n/t -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:14:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- What you wrote is confusing -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Not really -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Sorry.... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Umm... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- John's right about Brian, Katie -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:09:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- It doesn't work like that -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:08:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, I'm not Brian! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Are you still awake or you're an early riser? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:13:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I hate talking on the phone -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:19:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I hate talking on the phone - me too -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- HERE HERE, good posts, Pat and Joe -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:32:01 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Maharaji, Whither Goest Thou? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:06:44 (GMT)
__ Timmi -:- Maharaji, Whither Goest Thou? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- As a premie looking for a partner -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- As a premie looking for a partner -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:49:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- How prems get hooked! -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:21:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC channeling a premie -:- Hate Club! ANGRY, BIITER AND rejected -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Rats and mr. Skinner -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:58:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ timmi -:- Rats and mr. Skinner -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:15:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ magiclara(clarence) -:- re Why stay Timmi? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:16:39 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 13:07:17 (GMT)
From: Moley Channelling Larkin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Channelling Larkin, P
Message:
Bliss be the curse (after Larkin, P.)

They fuck you up, the guru men
They may not mean to but they do
With vacuous Vedic juju, then
They'll make some more up, just for you...

But they in turn were fucked up by
Old baldie men in royal robes
Who spread that messianic lie
With trippy, vacant, smiling pose

And passed it down to your sweet Lord
All Krishna-gowned and lily-like
Transcendent o'er the scummy horde
(But does look kinda silly, like...)

Far easier to shovel wet
Spaghetti up a wildcat's arse
Than prise apart the inner net
That hides the wealth, that hides the past…

But fucked up egomaniacs
Non-cognisant to fatal flaw
While toadies spare us from the facts
Aspire to live beyond the law

- the moral and the natural,
Think subway gas, think Haley-Bopp,
Oregon, Jonestown, Mount Carmel…
For none will tell them where to stop

And so fuck up. Do you recall
(Just try counting thru’ the years)
Of those that end – as must they all
- a cult which didn’t end in tears?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:50:34 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BTW This is genuine Larkin - not moi!
Message:
I am unfamiliar with the spaghetti insertion technique Pat!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:55:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moley Channelling Larkin
Subject: Far easier to shovel wet spaghetti up a wildcat's
Message:
arse
Than prise apart the inner net
That hides the wealth, that hides the past…

Did you really write that? I just loved your warped way with words.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 13:37:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: I've Got Another Book Idea
Message:
'Guru Maharaji's Guide To Fundraising'. I'm sure he needs funds now and maybe he'll hire you to ghostwrite it.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 14:01:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Moley Channelling Larkin
Subject: Can you reprint the original as well?
Message:
I can never find it because I can't remember the title. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 14:14:39 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Katie
Subject: 'This be the verse'
Message:
This Be The Verse
=================

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands down misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

[Philip Larkin, 1971 (no ancestor of mine, obviously!)]

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:12:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Thanks - this is a 'family holiday' here! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:09:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: latest email from EV: satellite broadcast
Message:
On June 10, 2001 in Lisbon, Portugal, Maharaji addressed an audience interested in the possibility of Knowledge.
Over 750 newly interested people attended the event!

Broadcasts of this event on Sunday, July 15th at 1:00pm and Thursday, July 19th at 6:00pm (Pacific Time) will provide an excellent opportunity to introduce someone to this possibility.

A quote from this event:

'Yes, it is possible for you to be fulfilled. For you to be in peace with yourself. Yes, it is possible for you to understand the value of each breath…to acknowledge the yearning of this life…to turn the pain into gratitude...the doubt into knowing.' -Maharaji
Copyright Elan Vital

(Ed. Truisms and common sense are now copyrighted?)

Satellite Broadcasts are available for home viewing and are also shown at local venues in many cities in North America and around the world. For further information, visit Visions International at www.visionsinternational.org or call 805-496-4777 extension 2.

The Fat Fag who's now off to wine and dine and have fun.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 13:04:25 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: Another Book In The Making
Message:
We're at:

1. Guru Maharaji And Food Issues
2. Groundhog Days With Maharaji
3. The Possibilities Of Guru Maharaji

I hope I'm not hounding you with these suggestions, but you seem energetic enough to pull something like this off and also, this exercise is helping me to get some thoughts off my mind.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:49:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Stream of consciousness flowing here now
Message:
Hi.

I just caught the latest installment of the EV newsletter in which Maharaji talks about being enlightened and how it can all go bye-bye in a moment of unconsciousness. Ram Dass and Stephen Gaskin, two of my early mentors on the road to unlimited devotion (save the critiques on them, they are fallible humans and realize that) were saying that thirty-something years ago. It's ALL here and now and that is the point. What one does here and now is all that really matters and the only place from which life emanates and change can occur for better or worse. The kingdom of heaven (from the Greek meaning truth) is NOW, and if one can just let go of past and future tripping, bang, here you are! Holy Name and all the other goodies are right HERE NOW, superimposed on us like an overlay, but we need to back off from the other overlays we have and gaze at life like one of those pictures with many layers of images to partake.

Maharaji doesn't seem to think it's necessary to say 'I'm sorry' and get straight with injured parties when he or his direct representatives do step out of it and so the premies are following suit, thus rendering the teachings of Christ null and void. I am not ready to let go of forgiveness quite yet. I still find it quite healing and lifegiving to my HEART to both forgive and be forgiven. Anything short of that is like an old fart in a windowless room. I have found forgiveness to be a saving grace that can heal an individual, a relationship, or anything it touches, if the participants are willing. It is like water, dissolving the hardest rock over time, or with enough pressure, can blast away an old boulder in no time.

I watched an NBC TV show last night about Satan, the adversary. Lots of stuff rehashed about historical stuff, no talk about the UPC codes, EU, the cashless society, the mark, etc, DOS, the web, or anything here now. These guys make six or seven figures to spout this stuff in makeup and a nice suit to a society that has been treated like mushrooms (fed shit and kept in the dark) and it just keeps on coming.

We are on our own to discover the truth about life. I don't want to be a creature of anyone or anything's design except the Almighty Creator of all life, of which I am a part. And since I don't know his e-mail or phone number but truly believe there is such a being, I can connect just by wanting to, by my will and my desire to. Sound new-age? It most certainly is not. It's learning to listen in such a noisy world that is the hard part.

I do not believe that God is an urban legend. I believe that there are declared premies who are not real premies and there are delcared ex-premies who are really quite devoted to the truth and the search for it, and who love God alot more than some card-carrying premies who think it's in the bag because they belong to the group. And by premie and ex-premie, I do not refer to how someone feels about Maharaji, but rather how someone feels about living in truth, love and peace.

Christ did not just teach people how to meditate, he kicked ass in the temple when he saw the injustice of the moneychangers, and that is when the dominant social order knew it was time to do him. He could screw with the teachings, the books and the religious rules, but by golly, when he screwed with their cash flow he had to go.

Trick is to not get cynical or hardened by the unfairness in life, but to keep the faith and continue to do good. And the wisdom that is so often quoted, that of King Solomon, still serves us well....yet he had a harem, alot of gold, and was involved in family plots of intrigue, murder, and such. Go figure.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:36:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Shut up, you ignoramus NT
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:15:04 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't see the point of you saying that Jim
Message:
I and I'm sure many others, found Sandy's post both sincere and very interesting. Maybe you have an unfortunate history with him I don't know. It might be fairer to take each post on it's own merits rather than instantly slagging the guy off.

regards,
Marolyn - recovering from rather a BIG night and feeling a touch sensitive today.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:05:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: This isn't 'Groundhog Day' (the movie) NT
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:18:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But it's always 'Groundhog Day' for premies
Message:
The past does not matter. It can always be rewritten.

''Oops, sorry. I didn't mean that I am god-in-a-bod I just meant to say don't worry be happy and remember to breathe.''

Only the mind has yesterdays and tomorrows. In bliss it's always now.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:58:15 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@homail.com
To: PatC
Subject: Sounds Like A Fucking Nightmare To Me
Message:
'Groundhog Days With Maharaji' - sounds like another good name for a book.

So what do we have now:

1. Guru Maharaji And Food Issues
2. Groundhog Days With Maharaji

I think something is taking shape here, Pat. We've got a title with 'Guru' in it to satisfy the old-timers and one without 'Guru' for the newer pwicks. And I still nominate myself to be your agent.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:37:44 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I've Got A Better Idea
Message:
I think 'Groundhog Day With Maude Frickert' would be a more intersting book - it might actually have a happy ending. I love Jonathan WInters.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
From: bill-ah, Brian, remind me
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: again, why cant I pummel sandy?........nt
Message:
adrgsaf
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:02:44 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill-ah, Brian, remind me
Subject: why cant you pummel sandy, bill?
Message:
Re-read Forum I!
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:10:57 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: ha ha ha killer line Katie............nt
Message:
asdgas
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:59:45 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: You deserved it :)
Message:
I don't know if you have read some of Sandy's more recent posts, but he has really been thinking about things. As Pat said, he has done it in public, so it hasn't been easy.

BTW, today (July 4th) is our 2-month anniversary. I haven't ground Brian into dust yet, or vice versa, but this forum has been doing a good job of it :).

Gotta go - have a happy holiday, Bill.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:06:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Happy 4th July
Message:
Forum V is big enough (and certainly ugly enough!) to leave mom. And it may well grow up some more as a result, blooming into a beautiful and wise place.

Happy 4th July!

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 13:28:07 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: The FA runs the forum, John, not me
Message:
I walked away from that job a long time ago - it ain't mine. It would be a bit more complicated to walk away from ex-premie.org.

And by the way, I have just as much of a right to express my opinion here as any of you.

Sorry, I'm angry this morning - don't take it personally, please.

Katie

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:31:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill-ah, Brian, remind me
Subject: why cant I pummel sandy?You don't pull yr punches
Message:
Maybe the problem is that Sandy arrived here as a preachy premie and did not convert anyone but was converted on-line, in the nude, raw and uncensored in a slow and tiresomely long strip-tease. Give the guy a break - pull some of your punches.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:57:40 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Good to see you Sandy.
Message:
Well Pat,

When Sandy burst in here about 18 months ago I hastily backed out of a conversation with him. I was not at all clear we shared the same planet! And he did rather lay into people as I recall (yeah, yeah, I know, hark who's talking).

I wouldn't say the development of Sandy's views re Rawat and his business was tiresome to watch. But other people did find some aspects of the process irritating, and poor Jim! he really did suffer. Still, no-one has to read everything here.

I hope you don't mind me talking about you Sandy, but I've come to the conclusion you are a poet and that you are not very interested in what lawyers and engineers call (perhaps misleadingly) 'expressive discourse', where conclusions follow with mechanical regularity from premises and reasoning.

Poetic understanding may seem to take us so much farther, faster. Be patient with the plods, though. Your mode of understanding may be exiting, but a poetic truth never built a railroad, even if they have inspired them!

MrsT is recovered from her burst appendix now. I do hope everything in your life is improving too, Sandy.

Best Wishes,

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:17:41 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Good to see you too, John
Message:
I hope your wife is healing fast. Broccoli is the number one tissue producing vegetable and unless she has some aversion to it, would probably help alot now, steamed or in a soup.

Funny you should say I am a poet...that's what was written under my high school senior picture by the editors of the yearbook some 34 years ago. Yes, more a poet artist thinker dreamer than a brickmason, but I am learning to build practical physical things too now. And both have their place and importance in this world.

No, I don't mind being talked about as long as it's true...and I am learning to let the untruths not hurt me when they are said as well.

The whole thing about Maharaji and Knowledge and how that guy Karl up top in a new thread saying that Maharaji does his job impeccably and his personal life is not our business...I don't see a separation between the stage and life when it comes to a Master. I just don't see one. Maybe for a movie star or a broadway actor, their personal lives may vary from their roles, but to come on as the Man of the Times on stage and act just like the rest of us and more offstage, that does not compute in heart or mind.

If he said he was just a really knowledgeable guy who could help tune us into the inner vibration and peace, I could accept his human trips more easily, but he took it to the point of worship.
That's another story.

I gotta go now. Thanks for the genuine warmth.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:02:32 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, you are such a flamer, yes, pun intended...
Message:
I had to go wash off after reading your pulpy version of my life.
As Katie would say, sheesh! But one thing you are dead wrong on and that is that I ever was trying to convert anyone here. Rather, I was just trying to connect somehow through the anger and hurt one-to-one, human being to human being, with no hidden agenda to convert anyone, just to be able to see and feel what some of you all saw and felt through your eyes....to understand how one person could be seen so differently by different people. And that did happen which is why I am here now and not gushing corn syrup on another site.

You know the one about the blind men and the elephant? Well, there was one other blind guy that no one remembers, because he was feeling around the ass sphincter of the beast just as it let go some massive load and buried the poor dude. But that too was part of the elephant, which was never reported due to the incapacitation of the epirical observer on that end so to speak.
And that is what happened to alot of folks who got their voices muffled and shut out of the conversation in premieworld, who got shit on and buried and forgotten. I did not forget you.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:13:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I'm a flaming liberal agnostic ethical humanist
Message:
I call myself agnostic not because I know something that you don't but because I don't know everything but don't want to speculate and I certainly don't want to use scriptural cliches and truisms to do that speculating. I think I've read as many scriptures as you. (I haven't always been agnostic. I was in a catholic monastery for two years and studied buddhism and hiduism long before I met Rev Rawat.) Some were written by wise men but mostly I find them anachronistic and primitive.

I prefer using my own words to others' words and if I don't have words of my own I say so but I don't use others' words to fill in the gap in my understanding. Scriptures are other peoples' words not mine or yours. Yes, I know it's not easy to find your own explanations. For most of the spiritual concepts that you quote scriptures on I have to admit honestly that I have no explanation. I'd rather just say, I don't know. Doesn't mean that I am less in awe of life than you are.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:57:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat
Message:
The thing about being a 'flamer' was tongue in cheek attempt at humor (like 'tits in a tangle' that you used recently?)...

I was not cracking on you or your beliefs or depth of understanding.

I can respect an agnostic viewpoint, even though I find it intuitively obious to the most casual observer that an intelligence and artistry and love far greater than mine or anyone I know designed and created the body and world and universe in which I exist and have my being.

Hope you have a good day.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:23:14 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Enter the sandyman
Message:
Hi Chef,
I was the origional spastic premie coming out slowly on the forum.
I really posted that as a joke for Brian and Iam glad because Katie got a chance to make me laugh and get back at me for
some jokes at her.
Your comment below,
'as a preachy premie and did not convert anyone but was converted on-line, in the nude, raw and uncensored in a slow and tiresomely long strip-tease'
is funny to me and also fits me.

I did befriend him on the forum for years but he tricked too many premies with teasing messages that he would then renig on
and blow off so many long typed sincere posts that he would solicit. That went on so long that I chalked him up with Mili
as someone that would not be changing his views.
Mili does not tease however, bless him.

In this post, he doesnt tease, maybe it will become a habit?
Is this post pummeling?
I dont want to be the first to run against the new wind and thereby help define it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:38:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: bill, did it ever occur to you...
Message:
that what you call teasing and tricking were brain farts from my own life and times that I had to let out because they were there and it was never a calculated attempt to hurt or throw anyone off over here?

If you can let go of your egocentricity for a moment and know that you are being taken care of, can you just observe someone else not totally unlike yourself who is growing and changing and not doing anything intentional to give you a wedgie?

I never forgot your hospitality, brotherhood and moral support in Harford back in the day. Just focus on that and let the rest go.
We are still the same people, only now there is much more mental and other types of turbulence in the air that we have to filter out to really hear each other.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:11:30 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: from gopi to 'egocentric', the problem is?
Message:
Maybe that is healthy Sanford, not sure I see any evidence that we can actually attain some alternate to 'egocentric'.
There have been fabulous posts here that covered the topic of what happens when we try to deny our nature and how it is crippleing.
Maybe trying to suppress the ego is definately NOT what the
god you talked about would want for you.

Imagine it this way fer a sec, you get off track, THEN you ask the god to take the wheel and help you find a way back, THEN, you are on track and the wheel is back in your hand with the best wishes of the god but we are given this body and time to really run the course in the way of our liking.

If YOU were the god you would be like that, you wouldnt want your little buddies to all line up like limp dolls waiting for YOU to do it all for them just because they were confused thinking that YOU WERE ALL POWERFUL AND THEREFORE WERE RUNNING IT ALL AND TAKING CARE OF EVERYONE.
Bad confining ideas that piss off god.
Makes for guys sitting in a machine that took billions of years of evolution to make with them not really taking thier life as the gift it is and having a real hands on blast.

THink of all the years that prem rawats ideas restricted my life.
There are people that play the role of devil in life. Selfish
people that want to rule others and tell them how to think and
pretend that god wants them to tell you what to do and how to view things.
It is the worst kind of deception to ruin the fun of god and life
and confine free spirits from following thier own drum totally.

Just cause I say something doesnt mean I am aiming it at you.
I am expressing a view to you, not at you.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 07:57:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Good stuff, Bill. I hope Sandy reads it.
Message:
I arrived here long after Sandy so I did not see the entire evolution. That's why I said ''maybe he arrived as a preachy premie.'' He is no longer a premie of the flawed Rev Rawat and that's good enough for me. That means that Sandy will one day realize that he is all he has got - that he is as close to a god as he will ever get (unless there is another more evolved human being somewhere that I don't know about.) Meantime I'll read his posts and take some of them with a pinch of salt.

Sandy, you may no longer be a premie but you still are a preacher. Not a criticism just an observation. I should know because I am one too. Maybe we're not preachers but pedants - hopefully never pedagogues.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:45:11 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: About the preaching
Message:
Pat,

Preach...to broadcast, from the Greek. One can preach without speaking, just like one of those towers that broadcasts radio signals. I think that is what Christ must have meant because he said to preach the gospel to every living creature. I don't think he meant to do a Dr. Doolittle and talk to frogs and such. Speaking is one big way we humans broadcast, but we are by no means limited to the spoken word. Christ copped to the existence of vibes and the realm of thought when he said that a man is guilty of adultery if he even thinks about it. So how and what we think is also being preached, or broadcast out into the universe, having more influence than words in many cases.

Thinking happy thoughts and wishing you well,

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:54:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Stream of consciousness sermon. Nice Pastor!
Message:
I substituted the word ''goodness'' for ''god'' and agreed with nearly every word you said. Good clean stuff.

Interesting that the word heaven comes from the Greek meaning truth. They were a very sane and sensible civilization and believed in honor and trustworthiness and always speaking the truth.

Liked your belly button joke in another thread.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:53:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: meditate shmeditate
Message:
Sandy how the fuck you know Jesus taught meditation, huh? You were there or sumthin?

dumb fuck...

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:11:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: meditate shmeditate
Message:
gerry,

I've been looking into the Kabbalah and it's pretty much a road map to the peace inside and a fulfilled life. What is referred to as the Lord's Prayer that JC said to pray is a paraphrase of the Kabbalah's basic teachings. It is in essence a scientific formula to get right inside, made simple for the general public. And yes, meditation is a major part of the program.

I happen to believe that he revealed Knowledge or something very akin to it too, but that is my opinion. Flesh and blood has not revealed this to me, but the Holy Spirit has. It's my experience, so you can call me all the names you can think of, but that is my experience.

The fact that I may be a dumb fuck in other respects has nothing to do with it.

Happy 4th,

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:09:31 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Course JC taught meditation ...
Message:
...how the fuck could he have been Satguru in his own time otherwise ? Rising from the dead ..fuck that for a party trick , real men breathe .

Didn't you learn anything from those years of satsang ?

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:03:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why does 'premie' = Intellectually Dishonest?
Message:
What is it about being a premie that gives one the excuse to engage in extreme intellectual dishonesty when it comes to Maharaji and the cult, but probably not in relation to anything else? How can the ONLY excuse given for the fact that Maharaji is a money-grubbing, alcoholic, who claimed to be God and now lies about it, and who took sexual advantage of his followers, be the one we keep hearing over and over, including from Charles Glasser: 'I don't care?' Why is that? It's like the Twilight Zone.

Charles says the following about 'who' Maharaji is:

And I don't care in the least about how he lives. In a world where drug dealers and arms merchants live like medieval princes, I could care less about whether Maharaji lives in a big beach house, or owns a thousand of them. What does that matter? Why should I care? Why does anyone?

Wasn't it earlier on this Forum when we discussed the meaning of the term 'damning by faint praise?' Well, Charles gives us an excellent example. I mean, gee, since there are drug dealers and arms merchants around, why should anyone want to pay attention to the way Maharaji lives and his comparatively minor foibles? Big defense, Charles. Think that up all by yourself in your law office of your really big firm?

Why someone who was smart enough to get through college wouldn't understand that to the vast majority of people, not including those who would NEVER judge or evaluate Maharaji, ever, because they believe he is God, the way their 'master' lives, how HE manifests this supposed fulfillment and happiness he offers in his own life, would be of great significance, even if it isn't to Charles.

Also, most people might be just a tad embarrassed to start following Maharaji, only to have their friends ask if he is the same guy who claimed to be God, and had sex with his devotees. Frankly, I think most premies don't even admit to their friends and business associates that they are premies, for that very reason. They are embarrassed to tell people they are premies, and are embarrassed of Maharaji. How many people in your really big law firm know you are a premie, Charles? Do you keep a picture of Maharaji on your desk in your office? Is it one of him having his feet kissed by thousands a few months ago in Australia? Were you there? Is that also irrelevent? Why don't you address that, Charles?

This is one of the reasons premies get so worked up and pissed off at ex-premies, to the point of starting websites, because they don't want advertised these things where their friends might see them. It's fine, they say, if we don't want to practice knowledge, but we should just shut up and 'move on,' as Charles so gratuitously suggests, not because he gives a crap about us, but because we keep saying things Charles can't reply to, except to say he doesn't care. Well, obviously Charles does care. He cares quite a lot.

Charles also says this:

Who cares if these sick critics play 'gotcha' with out-of-context bits from thirty-year-old conversations? It's all hearsay. I don't give a hoot what premies or instructors told each other thirty years ago. Maharaji offered me a way to find what I feel is God in myself. Maharaji kept this promise.

Well, they aren't really 'out of context' Charles. They are very relevent in fact to most people who don't think Maharaji is exempt from all the rules applied to everyone else.

As they say, actions speak louder than words, and Maharaji's behavior screams volumes about the kind of fraudulent, irresponsible person he is. And it isn't what the 'instructors told each other,' it's what Maharaji told US that I care about, all chronicled on this website in clear, in-context clarity. And it's very damning to Charles' 'master' even if he protests that he 'doesn't care.' It's the people who do care that Charles is really worried about. I doubt Maharaji could say or do anything that would dispell Charles' faith. Such is the nature of a cult.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:03:31 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: He's worried about the people who care...
Message:
... well said , that's right , the guy is a propagandist : that's so low , he knows about the real Rawat but defends him all the same.

I think you have to make a distinction between premies who know & premies who don't know . Most premies never knew squat about the fat one & his doings apart from the odd rumour swiftly disregarded as mind . However , many premies, myself included , having found out the undeniable facts from eyewitnesses which are available on this site have repudiated the little fucker.

Intellectually lazy before , certainly , dishonest no .

The Charles' are in a minority & like all such types before them are destined to be shat on when the Boss Liar changes tack to suit himself.

Good post Joe : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:15:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: difference: premies who know and those who don't
Message:
Those who know but still defend him are fanatics and must be treated as such. The vast majority of premies don't know and don't want to know and are therefore normally quite sane and nice. When the in-the-know fanatics post here they bore me beyond the limits of my patience. And let's face it if premies post here it means they already have read the opposition POV. They know and are making excuses and rationalizing which is what makes them sound nuts. The exceptions are dramatic such as Erica.

Again you put in in a nutshell, PatD.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 00:04:28 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why does 'premie' = Intellectually Dishonest?
Message:
Well Joe,

You got me, you really do.

The typical response 'I Don't care is clearly a defense mechanism meaning: 'I don't M to have to explain himself because the reality that he is only an earthly fuck-up is too much for me acknowledge. Go away. Stop trying to wake me up. I don't want to go to school.'

In a world where drug dealers and arms merchants live like medieval princes, I could care less about whether Maharaji lives in a big beach house, or owns a thousand of them.

This argument only holds water if M is in fact, an honest do-good Sat-Guru who has in fact, given them a supreme gift (gaggg). Once you realize who M is and who he isn't, only then does his opulent gluttonizing, mean something. Moot argument for premies because the Lord or SatGuru deserves the best, but does a beligerent Hindu piece of shit who deceived hundreds of thousands of trusting people and who is continuing to deceive the suckers who are left?

Premies also argue the M's sex life is none of their business. Well is a father who is having sex with his five year old daughter or niece also exempt from our concern. No. These are not woman who are bedding a multi-millionaire playboy. These women are devotees, female premies, who will be psychologically and emotionally damaged for a huge fuckin time once they realize the horror of their cohersion. Not the same at all. Damm his selfish ass.

Yes, Premies are embarrassed because of Maharaji--it's like having an affair with a married person. Yeah! You'll go along for the ride but you're not gonna brag about it to your friends and family.

And yes, they don't want the public to catch wind of this. They are not sure any more who he is and who he isn't. They are horrified at the possibility that this will enter the main stream and it is a last ditch effort to silence us.

Well fuck them! I'm not gonna go away, let alone quietly. Sorry...but ONLY when the last premie leaves the building, will I turn out the light.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:07:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's the rubbery Hindu ethics and also having an
Message:
Imaginary Friend sitting on your shoulder. Premies cannot be true to themselves because they are being true to someone else. the fact that THAT someone else is amoral also causes them to become so.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 00:40:40 (GMT)
From: PatC channeling Dr Aziz
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ''But what does man's truth have to do with it?''
Message:
''It is all maya - an illusion and only the supremest lord knows the real truth.'' So says Dr Aziz in ''A Passage to India.''

E M Forster covered the Hindu idea of ethics and morality very well in ''A Passage to India.'' Highly recommended reading if you wish to understand the Hindu mind. The movie's good too. Also recommended reading: ''Jewel in the Crown'' and ''Heat and Dust.'' All about when rigid western ethics meet rubbery eastern ''morality'' or lack of.

And please believe me, I am NOT kidding or being flippant. This is really how premies think or should I say FEEL because they do not think. Very few of them have examined their subconscious motivations.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 18:09:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Special Offer till July 31! Introductory video
Message:
In the latest catalogue from Visions International.

3 for only $15

The Want Within

An Introduction to Maharaji and his message

''That which you are looking for is inside of you. What does it mean? It means that there is something here which I need to know. That my contentment is not far from me. That my understanding is within me. That the shelter that I seek from the rain of this world is within me and is not far from me.''

My god this is a bargain - 3 vids for only 15 bucks! Now let's see who can I give them to? My great Aunt Sarie thinks the poems in Hallmark cards are literature. She might like it but she also has senile dementia so she may forget to push the PLAY button on the VCR. Then there's my sister who really wants to learn how to meditate but she's a businesswoman and would ask me awkward questions like: ''What is the rain of this world?''

I know - maybe I could give all three copies to the premies that I know. They will understand them and enjoy them but they already have Knowledge and these are introductory videos. I have to ask myself, ''Just who the fuck are these videos aimed at? Brain dead morons?''

Sorry, I forgot - it's all about ''that feeling'' and not the words. How silly of me to forget.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:00:48 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I guess I was wrong about you
Message:
....because I realy don't like or appreciate being called a brain-dead moron, and I don't appreciate my offspring and several other close friends that are aspirants being called brain-dead morons either. I thought I read in many of your posts, and especially the ones we exchanged, that you were not in this to insult or personally attack, but---I guess you're not quite there yet. In fact, it's exactly why this site cannot be taken seriously, IMO: it's too much like a skinhead or Fundamentalist Muslim site in the rancorous and personally insulting quality of the attacks; and so naturally uttered. That's what's spooky to me. I've never attacked anyone here personally, and I never will. Except for that time I told you you were full of shite---which you were---but that could be said about almost any human at one time or another, so it's not really a personal slander..... :--)

Happy 4th......

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:57:11 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr. W - Have you forgotten what your Lord said???
Message:
Mr. Williams said to PatC:
I've never attacked anyone here personally, and I never will. Except for that time I told you you were full of shite---which you were---but that could be said about almost any human at one time or another, so it's not really a personal slander.....

Mrs. Warp replied:
Mr. W. - don't you remember where your other 3 fingers are pointing????

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:07:27 (GMT)
From: Jehovah's Witnesses
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: We want you to come work for us...
Message:
You're persistant and annoying, can't take a hint, push yourself in where you aren't wanted... you'd be a PERFECT addition to our recruiting department.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:15:58 (GMT)
From: Jehovah's Atheist
Email: None
To: Jehovah's Witnesses
Subject: I'm confused
Message:
Why do I keep knocking on people's doors for no reason ?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:09:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jehovah's Atheist
Subject: Brilliant! This your joke? NT
Message:
ggggg
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:01:21 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: wish it was mine but nope it ain't nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:45:33 (GMT)
From: Jehovah
Email: None
To: Jehovah's Atheist
Subject: TRussssst in meeeeeeeee
Message:
You knoock on doors in order to find my 144000 sould to go to heaven. The fact that there are already many many many more than 144000 JWs doesn't matter.
Just keep on reading the Watchtower to hear my direction even if it seems to change....eeeeer every so often.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:16:36 (GMT)
From: The Mormons
Email: None
To: Jehovah's Witnesses
Subject: No, we want MW to come work for us..
Message:
Praise the Lord and pass the Introductory Video Propagation Packages.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 12:03:40 (GMT)
From: EV(not affilated w/M)
Email: None
To: The Mormons
Subject: Sorry Guys We Own Him
Message:
He's just practicing what he learned at the sales seminar he paid to attend. Now, begone.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:38:20 (GMT)
From: Hari Krishnas
Email: None
To: EV(not affilated w/M)
Subject: Shucks. WE wanted him to work at the airport. NT
Message:
v
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 08:50:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: happy Independence Day to you too, Mr Williams
Message:
Okay, okay. I apologise. My rudeness to you was an over-reaction. I was really reacting to what you said about me when you went behind my back to Lifes Great and posted a smarmy comment there. That is what I was reacting to more than your actual post here which was polite enough. I did not separate my anger at the posts on LG with what you actually said in your recent post to me here. I still don't completely trust you and would like to hear it from the horses mouth that you did not mean to insult me on LG.

The Fourth is my favorite holiday. I love my idndependence and the Declaration of Independence is the creed of my religion - ethical humanism. have a good one.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 18:54:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Feelings, whoa, whoa, whoa, feelings ...
Message:
Such a sappy song. Your post had me LOLing at my desk.

It reminds me of a time when a relative of mine went to a program in England several years ago. He was visiting my never-a-premie sister and her husband, also living in England, and was all excited about this video he had just gotten and shyly asked to play it. (Now mind you, my sister had been dragged to enough intro programs over the years.) It was some danged intro video and my sister and her husband were like, 'what?' She said it covered no new ground, and she could get better insights on the nature of life from her cleaning lady.

We just didn't know who would have gotten our relative to think that there was anything new in the video, or have talked him into taking the plunge to show it to someone who had obviously heard this all before. But I knew. Been there, done that.

--f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:01:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Da da di do. Welcome to the Twilight Zone
Message:
PS and non-sequitur: some people here seem to not have realized that the net is uncontrollable and that they can dictate to others. Da da di do.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:18:27 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Or is that the Toilet Zone?
Message:
Remember that satsang golden boy gave where he said to imagine yourself out in the universe with nothing but a toilet seat that you were sitting on. Something about what would happen if you flush. I always thought that sastang was funny. I called it the toilet zone.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:22:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Toilet Zone? Talk about potty humor
Message:
Most of Bighead's (thanks Deb) humor is scatological. Freud would say that's because he is trapped in the anal phase of infant development.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:51:08 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Love And Lust And Shri Hans
Message:
I had a very full day Canada Day (Sunday) and spent the whole day yesterday resting and recovering.

Sunday night I met a brilliant fellow at the pub who looked a hell of a lot like Tom Hanks and was wearing a t-shirt that said 'First Step Acting School' on it.

He was very animated and was a big hit with the regulars at the pub. I hung out with him and his girlfriend until 3am - she had to work the next day but he wanted to come over to my place.

This fellow was very much in my face, confrontational with questions and advice, and I loved the guy. He lectured me on the difference between love and lust - something to the effect that lust is pulling something from another person while love is give and take.

I was just browsing Hans Yog Prakash, available on this site, and came across two quotes regarding lust. Here they are:

Lustful women who pay no heed to the words of Satguru, but make a show of modesty on the outside, says Kabir, become bitches who moan wherever they go. A king who has no devotion for the Guru is no better than a Bullock, says Kabir. He is good for transporting things from one place to another, but that is all.

I thought this one was cute.

Devotion is as dear to the Holy Name as lovemaking is to a lustful man. Just as a lustful man thinks about making love all the time, so a devotee never ceases to remember the Holy Name.

This one's interesting too.

What I'm wondering about is this. I read in the 1960's when I was a teenager that a person needed a satguru or perfect master to become enlightened. When I saw a poster of Haharaji I followed up, attended a talk where Fakiranand was the speaker. It was a debacle as a Krishna guy who was dressed the same as Fakiranand got up and started shouting that Fakiranand was misinterpreting the Bhagavad Gita. Fakiranand kept asking the guy to sit down and, when he refused to sit down and shut up, Fakiranand walked off the stage and into the audience, a high school auditorium, and started shaking the guy by the arm. The event aborted at that time with some premies crying.

In any case I felt something interesting happen there and a few weeks later I got heavy 'satsang' from an acquaintance about knowledge. I followed up, met Krishnasukanand, had some profound experiences around him, and received knowledge five years later.

What I'm wondering about is that I sometimes consider Shri Hans my master, especially since I broke with Haharaji last August. All I have really to follow is his book and picture. It's weird following a dead master as I always thought one needed a living one. I guess it's better to follow a dead master that makes sense than a living one who doesn't.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 21:12:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A Poll
Message:
Which picture would you rather look at for a significant period of time:

A. or

B.

I vote for B. I'll tally the results - I haven't used my skill as a Chartered Accountant in a long time.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:30:57 (GMT)
From: Louella Parsnip
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: It's all MASTER-bation...
Message:
Speaking of Shi Hans and sex, did you know there was a sex scandal involving Shi Hans and the Satguru in the Beas Ashram?

Look at this interesting remark found on the pages of EPO:

''Sarupanand was Hansji's guru......Hansji was also apparently initiated by the late Sawan Singh of Radhasoami Satsang Beas.''

''Gyani Ji at Sawan Ashram in 1978 told me that Hansji had been initiated by Sawan Singh in the 1920s, but later left due to some personal problems (I think Gyanji said something about sex, but such gossip is notorious in India and not be relied upon unless there are many sources).''

Now, I recall reading something about Sawan Singh. He apparently had one very devoted devotee, who hated all women. This devotee was very devoted to his Master, and would wait for his master in his master's bedroom, to remove his master's socks at night and otherwise serve him.

Someone posted here once that an old mahatma once said to him there had been a newspaper scandel involving Shri Hans and sex, but he couldn't remember the details. Anyone else know anything?

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:42:36 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: muzicland@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Following a Master, and mastering one's self
Message:
Hi Steve,

I know what you mean about feeling weird following a dead master. But I also figure if we need someone to tell us when to get up, when to go do this or that, when or how to worship according to what rituals, by whose agenda, then we also may be missing the point.

While I would be defined as an 'ex', there is much about the 'spiritual life' (meditation, contemplation, breath-awareness and so on) that has continued to inform and balance everything else in my life. One main thing is the reclaiming of the wholeness and integrity of my whole beingness, which includes all of it: the evaluating, calculating and discerning intellect, the creative and aesthetic energies, the senses and physical body and its various appetites, the residing awareness of all of it and the radiant centerpoint in meditation. We can be balanced and happily integrated, not split into warring components. We also have to grow comfortable with, or at least be prepared for, our dying to this delightful physical world.

And I see this state of balanced awareness not as an ownership of any one guru or sect. If anything, it is reached and shared by a vast timeless community of 'practitioners and advisors', you might say, if one can judge by various writings and scriptures. We are part of that community; it is our human birthright, I believe.

I find an inspiration by thinking of this universal community of minds as my spiritual home base. Not a building, church, organization or ashram. Rather, as the source and origin of the core realizations as expressed by a variety of people: St. John of the Cross, Lao Tzu, Socrates, Seth, Jesus, Ramakrishna, Buddha, Chief Seattle, Patanjali, Thomas a Kempis, dozens and dozens of others, each contributing some important facet. This is my 'lineage', these are my 'spiritual family' so to speak. If pressed, yes, these are my 'masters'. But of a living state of mind.

But 'believing in' these guys isn't the thing, nor is scriptural argument. I can only try to align my thoughts, words, deeds, prayers, and focus upon the simple fundamental present-moment experience, and let loving energy and a willingness to reflect and learn wisdom ever flow and be paramount, and guide my actions.

If this is 'magical' thinking, then I am guilty of it.

Steve, here is my email address (above); in another post you'd suggested further discussion. That would be great. Note that I will be quite busy with gigs for the next several days, until after this weekend. Please bear with a slow response time.

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:49:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Thomas a Kempis was not canonized because
Message:
In the Roman Catholic church they canonize (make into saints) people who have three certified miracles attributed to them by people who have prayed at their graves. The first step to canonization is beatification. That's when the miracles have occurred and the high holy church lady cardinals decide to investigate the dead guy and see if he qualifies as a saint.

At this stage the beatified dead guy (now known officially as the Blessed So-and-so) may have his ''relics'' worshipped. Relics are bits of old skin and bones of dead saints (which are buried inside every altar of every Catholic church.)

Well, they dug up Kempis' corpse and found that he had chewed his thumb off because he had actaully been buried alive. This was evidence that he had despaired at the moment of death and therefore was ineligible to be made a saint.

Just as well Hindus burn their cadavers otherwise we would probably have worshipped bits and pieces of Shri Hans' corpse.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:56:42 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I saw the relic fingernails of Catherine of Siena+
Message:
loads of temporarily unconscious or comatose people were buried alive in the old days. In fact, George Washington was so terrified of being buried alive that he instructed that a bell be placed in his coffin, which he could ring to alert a slave who would be standing watch over his grave for several days after the burial.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:25:01 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: PatC
Subject: Thomas a Kempis was not canonized because
Message:
'Just as well Hindus burn their cadavers otherwise we would probably have worshipped bits and pieces of Shri Hans' corpse.'

Wow. That's about as disgusting an image as I've come across in a long time! I'd go lie down to recover, but I'm locked out of my bedroom for the duration of the 'practice'. Rawat has a lot to answer for...............

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:40:26 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Chief Sealth [Seattle] speech was a white forgery
Message:
that oft-quoted speech never happened, according to American historians. It was the fictional creation of an empathetic white media mythmaker.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:45:36 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Forgery, frauds, deceptions, bad translations....
Message:
Re the old chief's speech: Well, fancy that...another spin doctor revising history. I shouldn't be surprised.

Lao Tzu is also reputed to be more fictional than actual, according to some scholars. And how do we know what Jesus really said, anyway -- where's the video tape? And Socrates never wrote anything, it was all Plato. And Seth? That was Jane Robert's dementia, don't you know. Ramakrishna was nuts and Buddha a tiresome old fraud. Marcus Aurelius suffered from depression, Shakespeare's work was really written by Francis Bacon, and the dish ran away with the spoon. Yeah, these Masters just ain't as divine as we want to make them.

That's why I maintain that the idea isn't to simply 'believe' in these folks, or to glibly recite their words, as though that constitutes understanding. Certainly not to make elaborate and enslaving sects and religions around them. The idea is to gather and study, that is, reflect upon and test, such wisdom as personally resonates with clarity and potential within one's own mind and being. The living ideas, the best of human potential, trying to be made manifest in this world by less-than-perfect people, trying to make 'thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven'. As above, so below, like that.

And as inspiring as the skillfully wrought words can be, even more inspiring, or inspiring in a wholly different way, can be musical works or passages. Bill Evans created some exquisite and transcendent piano music, but the poor guy doped himself out of existence. Beethoven created masterpiece after masterpiece, but was a somewhat foul and unpleasant person. We could go on forever picking at the warts of the troubled creators.

You can get rich sweet juice from a discolored or misshapen orange, and a tasteless dribble from the roundest and most perfectly hued orange.

Our 'white' media mythmaker either cynically or sincerely composed his essay, but in any case it presents and provokes a state of mind in a moving, thought-provoking and effective way. It is a powerful speech. It squeezes out the juice. The essence is the nourishment.

As novelists are fond of saying, fiction often can tell the truth better than fact can.

Getting late,
Best wishes,
C.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:49:07 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: deafness left Beethoven depressed. + Jesus' words:
Message:
Deafness made Beethoven severely depressed, withdrawn, and hard to communicate with -- affecting his social relations in an era when types of deafness and its effects on people were not understood. His behavior should be viewed in that light, as he suffered from progressive deafness most of his adult life, beginning in 1796 when Ludwig was 26.

Ludwig van Beethoven [the Heiligenstadt testament]: 'I must live alone like one who has been banished, I can mix with society only as much as true necessity demands. If I approach near to people a hot terror seizes upon me and I fear being exposed to the danger that my condition might be noticed. Thus it has been during the last six months which I have spent in the country... what a humiliation for me when someone standing next to me heard a flute in the distance and I heard nothing, or someone heard a shepherd singing and again I heard nothing. Such incidents drove me almost to despair, a little more of that and I would have ended my life -- it was only my art that held me back. Ah, it seemed to me impossible to leave the world until I had brought forth all that I felt was within me...Oh Providence --grant me at last but one day of pure joy -- it is so long since real joy echoed in my heart.' [translated in Thayer's Life of Beethoven]

r.e. Jesus's actual words -- who knows? However, the 4 org gospels of Christendom + Paul + revelations were NOT written by eyewitnesses, but rather by people around a generation or 2 later, based on stories that had been passed along.

The eyewitness accounts of the literate apostles [Jesus' brother James, young John, and the so-called doubting Thomas] WERE written down but then later deliberately omitted from Christian teachings and suppressed by the Roman church. They are known as the Gnostic gospels -- they speak of an inner Knowledge, and the Gnostic gospels do not speak of any church or temporal authority that believers should obey or follow.

from The Gospel of Thomas:
His disciples said, 'Show us the place where you are, for we must seek it.'
He said to them, 'Whoever has ears ought to listen. There is a light within an enlightened person, and it shines on the whole world. If the light does not shine, it is dark.'

...Jesus said, 'Images are visible to people, but the light within is hidden in the Father's image of light. He will reveal himself, but his image is hidden in his light.'

...Jesus said, 'Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not understand that the one who made the inside also made the outside?'

[from ancient scrolls hidden by the early Nazarenes [aka Gnostics aka Christians] in Egypt, comprising part of what is termed the Nag Hammadi library]

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 21:16:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I knew that!
Message:
But the speech is still very inspiring, no matter who wrote it. In fact, my sister bought her son a children's book which contained the speech on illustrated pages - and I didn't want to disillusion her so I didn't tell her that it was not written by an Indian.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:18:50 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lots of updates on the 'Best of' page!
Message:
Best of the Forum posts

If you're visiting Forum V for the 1st time, or if you haven't been here recently, don't miss them.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:19:06 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks JM! Very helpful indeed (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:35:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Lots of updates on the 'Best of' page! Thanks, J-M
Message:
I hope new visitors will take your advice to read them before posting here. It would help them a lot not to make assumptions about us exes. It is the ignorant assumptions (usually by premies who have not bothered to make use of the archives) which seem to create a lot of the uncivil reaction to them.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:51:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ed from the UK is a LIAR
Message:
Or at least he is very misinformed. On Pia's website, somebody named 'Ed' from the UK says the following:

I just want to write to say how pleased I am to see this site. I have been appalled by the ludicrous and unfounded accusations against someone who, in my experience, has worked tirelessly for years to bring to people a way of experiencing the most wonderful of experiences within themselves.

Note as is the pattern with most of the Maharaji apologists, Ed does not bother to mention what 'accusations' he is talking about, and of course he provides no evidence, analysis, or even opinions as to why such 'accusations' are 'ludicrous and unfounded' or why he would even be in any position to know. How 'Ed' thinks this statement is very persuasive is, to say the least, curious.

Never has Maharaji wished to charge for this Knowledge that he so kindly helps people to discover within themselves.

Ed conveniently avoids talking about the high-pressure fundraising techniques that go on and have gone on, in the Maharaji cult. Ed may not be aware of this, but I AM aware of this, having participated in them myself, as an employee of Elan Vital. Ed also ignores Maharaji's obscene lifestyle, I guess for fear that the obvious will be noted, that Maharaji has NO means of support except money from the premies.

Never has he spoken of anything other than the beauty of this experience, and he has made it available freely to those who thirst for it.

This is a major lie. Ed could spend some time on this website reading quotes from Mr. Rawat in the unlikely event he hasn't already heard them. For example, on what possible basis can 'Ed' place Maharaji's scare tactics about how if one left knowledge one would would rot inside, smash into a thousand pieces or go to hell, in the 'beauty of the experience' category? Just how does Ed do that?

Or how about when Maharaji told us that getting married was equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite, as I have him on tape saying, or that the only tie you had to your family was the one they gave you for Christmas? Or how about when he spoke to us about the perils that would befall us if we moved out of his ashrams, or lost faith in him? What does any of that have to do with the simple 'beauty of the experience?'

Never has there been a sense of coercion in the practice of this Knowledge, for always Maharaji has made it clear that only if you want to, should you receive it and practice it. The choice always lies with each individual.

Another major lie in the same vein. How can 'Ed' possibly not see those threatening statements by Maharaji, repeated endlessly by his Mahatamas and Initiators under his personal direction, as anything other than 'coercion,' especially when he was, at the very same time, portraying himself as the Incarnation of God on Earth? If one believed Maharaji was anything other than a lying megalomaniac, which it turns out he was, then those statements are, indeed, coercive, and as many of us have testified, that's exactly the way we took them.

Ed goes on to talk about how much he respects and likes Maharaji. Well, aside from the fact that Ed doesn't mention whether he has ever even met Maharaji, I don't know how much stock to put in that, but Ed is entitled to his opinion about Maharaji, but he isn't entitled to lie. Then, of course, considering the amount of lying his 'Master' engages in, Ed has a pretty rotten role model in that regard.

Ed

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:43:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I would say that Ed is either confused
Message:
or he is only following his lying master. Both option are good for me.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:05:03 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ed from the UK is a LIAR
Message:
i especially like the last part joe, re m as a role model...a smoking, heavy drinking, womanizing, greedy, behind the back negative talking, two faced role model....oh, but its not him that is being given, rather its the knowledge that one gets for free...from someone who somehow feels he owns it and controls it as his special property and right passed down from his father and before that etc....etc.

seems to me that the container any product is in has a tendency to affect the product itself...bad container usually means contaminated product...and with all the bagage that m attaches to the product, the not so subtle belief systems so wonderfully exploried a few days ago, its no wonder the product is at best confusing and at worse dangerous to enjoying the power and glory of our individual lives as they unfold.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 00:35:04 (GMT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Ed from the UK is a LIAR
Message:
>>i especially like the last part joe, re m as a role model...a smoking, heavy drinking, womanizing, greedy, behind the back negative talking, two faced role model....oh, but its not him that is being given, rather its the knowledge that one gets for free...from someone who somehow feels he owns it and controls it as his special property and right passed down from his father and before that etc....etc.

The smoking and drinking are demonstrable behaviors but don’t you think “womanizing, greedy, behind the back negative talking,” and “two-faced” is somewhat editorial on your part. I mean, when I talk to many others who are and have been around him like you were I get an entirely different slant.

But it sounds like you fancy yourself some kind of judge of integrity mike. Tell me, you got the integrity needed to be a judge? Your claim to fame here is your past proximity to Maharaji but what do you really know about a Master? True, you were once close to someone who people said was a Master but what baseline did you use to compare and weigh his actions? I mean what is it that you go on here, the stuff they taught you in Sunday school?

Or perhaps you don’t believe in Masters. You are an egalitarian. Maybe for you it goes something like this: “we are all equal and free already and because we are equal nobody can teach us anything and because we are free there’s nothing more about freedom to learn”. Okay, maybe you can’t fool yourself that much. How about this: “If we aren’t already free, maybe we are here to be circumspect for the span of our lifetime and in the process possibly find freedom ourselves but when we find it, it will be “our own freedom” because we did so as an equal”. How does the song go, “I did it my way, yada, yada, yada”. So as an egalitarian maybe your hand-shake with Maharaji was an attempt to “equalize” him in your universe, and when he didn’t buy into it, “mike the egalitarian” bolted. I don’t know, just speculating here.

They say that only those who have truly committed their lives to learning from the Master will understand his actions. I know this is the kind of stuff we used to parrot to each other daily but this stuff has always been real, parrot or no. It beats hell out the egalitarian ethos but then again, today’s form of egalitarianism is a pretty recent experiment.

Anyway, happy 4th mike.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:20:16 (GMT)
From: The Mormons
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: Richard 11, we need you to propagate for us
Message:
You're so good at attempting to make sense out of nonsense that we could use to explain why Jesus hovered a foot above the ground when he spoke to the Great Master Joseph Smith.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:02:32 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: Ed from the UK is a LIAR
Message:
and richard...please ask those around m now or in the past how many times they heard him light into someone behind there backs...or perhaps send those around him to tell someone something he wanted them to hear...but not say its from him. my direct experience many many many times. and then to see him act as the opposite when he saw that person the very next day even. amazing duplicity. i am embarrassed remembering all the times i was the messenger when m was unable to do it himself...oh, ya, an opportunty for me to serve him and let go and...whatever.

and if valario or alvaro or michael belcher woods deny this side of m, well then....what can i say, maybe he has changed...but that is not what i am hearing from those recently around him.

so, i observed these behaviours and hence the labels like two faced, etc.

good luck richard II

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 04:27:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: JM. another post for saving here....nt
Message:
adsgga
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 02:55:27 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: Ed from the UK is a LIAR
Message:
wow, richard the II...i take objection to m thinking and acting like he owns knowledge..i the sole dispenser of the ancient techniques of going inside and experiencing some subtler aspects of ourselves. do you doubt that he acts and has acted consistantly from a place of ownership of knowledge? i think his actions in this regard are demonstrateable. i think that fundamentally this is the basis of his self proclaimed 'authority' and therefore the foundation of the whole saga is a lie. further, i think that he knows it is a lie and continues anyways because he is hooked on the guru trip (which of course requires devotees like i was once).

aside from the excuse of lila...in most contexts it is considered irresponsible to use one's power and position of authority to gain sexual access to his 'followers'. this is the basis of my belief that he behaves, at least, innappropriately when he does so. and i have seen the damage he has done in this regard.

and it is my belief, from observation, that he consistantly is motivated by money and possessions. i have, at some length previously on this site, given examples of this repeated behaviour. hence, my statement re greedy.

but you are correct in noticing some judgement...i would like to be more careful in that area generally in my life...i got carried away emotionally as i was feeling how deep the propaganda entered my being between 71 and 86, and i forgot my part in that dance of mirrors with m.

as for masters..well, that is a long story but i love community and the place of it in my life and growth...and generally equality of value and power...give what we can and get what we need, that sort of thing. claiming our own power, focusing on the master within, like that.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:13:10 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Thank you Mike
Message:
Mike,
I appreciate the time and energy you have put in posting at the EPO site. I have been reading information on the site over the past 4 weeks. Much of the information that you shared has helped me grasp what went on behind the offical facade. Thanks again for your time and trouble
Henry
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:28:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: A beautiful post, donner. thank you
Message:
We all judge but we don't all damn or condemn. Pointing out someone's obvious defects is called criticism and is highly valued in civilized society as a means of curtailing anti-social behavior. And criticism does not always spring from hate. It is often motivated by the opposite of hate. I greatly appreciated your post. you're a very sensible and thoughtful man.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:58:18 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: WHAT MATHATMA SATYANAND TOLD ME...
Message:
One afternoon in Houston, I was in a room with a few people and mahatma Satyanand, a very old man who had received knowledge from Sarupanand and been a mahatma since Shri Hans' earliest days.

Satyanand's English was not very good, but an Indian premie translated whenever mahatmaji would slip into Hindi.

Satyanand related that during Shri Hans Maharaji's guruship, apparently Hans thought mahatmaji was getting a bit too big for his britches. So, he told him, 'Get me a stick; I want to BEAT YOU!' Mahatma ji fetched a stick, and Hans took the stick and beat him. And, every day thereafter, whenever Satyanand was anywhere in the vicinity of Shri Hans, Hans would order him to get a stick so that Hans could beat him. And, Hans beat him harshly each day.

Finally, Satyanand couldn't stand the abuse and feeling of total rejection by his Master anymore. So, He went before Hans and all the mahatmas -- and told Hans that it seemed Hans had apparently only contempt for him, but that he wouldn't stand for being beaten anymore, and so he was immediately going to go into mahasamadhi and leave his body right now.

Mata ji then tearfully interceded on Satyanand's behalf, begging Shr Hans to forgive him for whatever disgression or impudence he might have committed and she implored Hans to be kinder to Satyanand.

Hence -- origin: Satyanand's debt to Mata j's compassion, repaid during the family breakup.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:42:48 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: WHAT MATHATMA SATYANAND TOLD ME...
Message:
I have been told this story before , when i was a premie
then, it was all bliss , and so much , being in that place .

really , it is so low , it stinks , it is the lowest
actions , that we where twisted to see , as something
divine

who said : no one care for human life ??

So very sad

ulf

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:29:27 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Yeah, we accepted abuse as karmic instruction (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:25:43 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: er, MAHATMA. [typo] (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:47:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Such bliss! Such lila! Such a bunch of bollocks!
Message:
Yes, I knew that story too, Such. I think part of my attraction to the atavism of Maharajism was that he came at a time when I despised western culture (Vietnam war, apartheid etc) and Indians seemed to value feelings, joy and life.

Yeah right! My imaginary Hindus did but in reality they are just as venal as any people in the world. But even today you can hear hints of Rawats's superiority complex in that he thinks Indians have the corner on the market for spiritual shit.

And thanks, Carl for pointing out the horrors of Indian culture. Did you mention that more children are sold into slavery in India than anywhere else in the world?

Maharajism is a perfect product of Hinduism, unethical, primitive, ananchronistic and infantile.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 14:59:03 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Satyanand's stories
Message:
I'm sure you've heard that hoary old metaphor of the guru as potter, and devotee as clay: The Master supports you with one hand inwardly, and shapes you by slapping you with his other hand on the outside. We are expected to welcome the slaps.

Mahatma Satyanand had an endless supply of experiences and stories. I lived with him for a number of years, before, during and after the HF split. He was quite a character. If what M dispenses these days is known as 'K-lite', then Satyanand was the exemplar of 'K 195 proof'.

The story you mentioned I have heard before, and reminds me I have heard many others wherein the devotee gets beaten, but for his own good somehow.

I remember the following as part of the 'belief system' with which we were being inculcated:

Receiving a beating from the Master, in the Hindu or Indian ethical world view, is almost like a badge of honor, and represents having such a close and enduring relationship with the Incarnate Lord that his beatings are felt to be blessings, to be guidance in some way, to humble the ego at the very least, and be 'lessons'.

It's rather like, if He didn't care so much for me, He wouldn't expend the energy to correct my error or misunderstanding. It is a sign of His mercy that we are connected with a sincerity that would not break even through a harsh rebuke or beating, no matter how severe.

It is reinforced that the Master/Guru constantly 'tests' his devotees, not through maliciousness or perverted glee, but for the improvement of the character and understanding of the devotee. It is a given that the best human qualities and profoundest understandings come from the deep loving bond that is the marriage of the grace of the Lord with the absolute sincerity of the 'true devotee'.

The whole effort was directed toward being 'a true devotee'. Or at least, that was a core concept, fully equivalent to 'realizing the Knowledge'. It was bhakti with jnana, full understanding. Not some gushing slobbering blissed-out gopiness, but instead a deep understanding of the purposes of the Lord and a direct and active connection to those purposes. Impeccable action was probably the goal, being able to anticipate what the Lord (i.e, Guru or HF member) would want, and to do those things.

The unfolding of daily life in the 'durbar' (i.e., 'court') of the Lord (his ashram) gave one plenty of opportunity to learn lessons in how to think clearly, anticipate, act and successfully (or not) serve the wishes of the Lord. It so happens that the most meaningful 'lessons' result from making big mistakes. It is the unique mercy of the Master that he endures the fuck-ups and turns them into possibilities for perfecting the understanding of the devotee.

It often seemed that some events were managed just to see how people would react, to reveal their inner character. There was a lot of judgment going on; one's words and actions were always under scrutiny. Mahatma Ji was fearlessly vocal about everything that was happening, and was not afraid to criticize anyone, even the HF, if he thought there was some mistake being made.

'True discrimination' and 'selfless service' were prized goals of realizing Knowledge, although the way to it was often rocky and contentious. It often seemed that we were 'The Praise and Blame Society' as much as anything. With everyone being exposed to exalted devotional behaviour in the satsang stories, and then blowing it in simple daily actions, it could get pretty intense.

And all of this was of course the exterior drama. The K itself was the supporting and illuminating basis. It's just that Mahatma Ji made sure we didn't minimize the moral or ethical dimensions of our worldly actions. This is where the real issue plays out: in action, character, understanding and results.

Indian scriptures and legends are bursting with stories and examples of the astonishing faith and shrewd discernment of 'true devotees' for their Master/Guru/God, where they were put to awful tests or moral dilemmas. These stories were the seeds or underlying assumptions for hundreds of satsangs I've heard Mahatma Satyanand give.

Unfortunately, there has always been the tendency for abuse by the priest-class to use these stories and these practices as devices of fear and manipulation with the objective to achieve personal or institutional power. In India life is harsher and held a little more cheaply so it seems (e.g., murdered or abandoned baby daughters, institutionalized beggary, suttee, and the still-extant caste system) than in the West.

This ethical system is one that M is steeped in as well. It is very interesting to see what he has done with it and in reaction to it. ('Dumbing down' comes to mind.) It certainly is a hard sell in the West, but may also account for what appears to be a sense of moral superiority that Indians often have toward westerners. Their world view has evolved for thousands of years and has been debated, challenged and refined for many many centuries by an army of scholars, pundits, gurus, poets and thinkers. It is a rich and formidible intellectual and spiritual tradition. Time will tell if it will continue to be flexible to the more scientific 'prove-it-to-me' stance of the less credulous West.

So, your 'Suchness', sorry I got so lengthy. Your post provoked me to reflect on these matters, and to remember Satyanand. I hope you are well.

Best wishes,
Carl


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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:10:03 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Carl
Subject: Nice Post
Message:
Please email me if you feel like it as I'd like to correspond with you about your various experiences.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:55:07 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: It doesn't surprise me.
Message:
It seems that around shri hans(m's father and guru) violence was an acceptable way of behaving in many circumstances.

For instance I went for darshan about 3 or 4 times in India, and every time Sampranand was there beating the (indian) premies(with a stick) to hurry thru the line('westerners' were not beaten).

For instance I went for darshan about 3 or 4 times in India, and every time Sampuranand was there beating the (indian) premies to hurry thru the line('westerners' were not beaten). Also I stayed at m's ashram in maharoli a few times, Sampuranand treated (indian) people like shit. Sampuranad was(and maybe still is) the 'boss' in India. He (sampuranad) certainly doesn't go short of anything. Still what goes around comes around.

There were many stories of the young sant ji hitting people in the morning to wake them up for meditation.
Also when maharaji broke Gary's (forgot his second name) nose with a stick. When gary made some murmurings, m said 'Would you rather I didn't touch you?'...which means that he should have been honoured to have the Lord break his nose.

It the same as many saiBaba devotees who have had their children sexually touched by saibaba, the parents say that saibaba is removing their (the young boys) karma.


I think basically m is a coward.

He used to blame DLM then EV and the mahatmas, instructors etc or some poor individual.

Anyway, just thought I'd comment.

I'm going out to enjoy the lovely day here in London now with July busting out all over.

bye

Jethro


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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:15:09 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Gary Girard. what's happened to him? (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:29:43 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: such
Subject: dunno (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:02:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Amazing stories, guys -- tales from the crypt NT
Message:
ddddd
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:45:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What exactly does it mean to be civil here?
Message:
In a discussion I'm having on Lifes Great [sic] I've heard premies say truly ridiculous things. ReeDICulous! For example, the latest is that Shri Hans didn't really mean any of the things he said in Hans Yog Prakash. It was a language problem. Earlier, it was that he might have had a drink or two before he read fairy tales to young Maharaji before going to bed. Someone else, as I said below, suggested that what Shr Hans said was alright but m's had to be a little coy (i.e. 'I'm not God!') because we couldn't handle the truth. Throughout, the premies have been as skittish coming to the table to actually discuss these things as a frightened stray cat sneaking onto the porch for a little milk. And, like the cat, they hiss and arch their backs up as soon as you get close.

So, please, you civil types, you caring types, you non-asshole types, you who know a 'better way', tell me please, how do you expect to ever talk with these people?

If all you're advocating is non-confrontation, I'm certianly not interested. But if you've got a kinder, gentler way of talking with these little scaredy cats, let me know. Do you or are you just blowing smoke?

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 06:54:46 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What exactly does it mean to be civil here?
Message:
Hi Jim,

As hard as it is - leave em be.

Here's a corker - remember the story of the sun and the wind competing to get the coat off the person - eerrgghhhhh!! Sorry.

Anyway I think I've given up counting how many times you've sworn off trying to get them to communicate - or maybe you haven't ever sworn off - maybe that was other's advice to you.

I think seduction is often the name of the game. My dog trainer has a great example she uses in her classes. She throws one end of a dog lead to someone, gives the handle to someone else and invites that person to pull - and low and behold (never failed her yet) the person on the other end resists and pulls back. Her hard point - it is easier not to get the resistance response to start with - get them doing what they want and get them to want what you want them to want.

However I reckon this is very important stuff to you. I don't think it is one way or another. I think it is an 'and and ' situation. Some hard stuff some light stuff.

I reckon there are many lurkers here who benefit greatly from your hard line and tight langauge usage, your sceptical nature. I have been one of these so thanks for that. I also reckon there are others who benefit from the way others are here - more easy, lets say, with their presentation. Without actually knowing for sure - I hypothesise that there a many many many who benefit from the furstrating and seemingly iterminable discussions you have with premies and other magical thinkers here. These discussions don't require a resolution in order to be useful and effective. It is the witnessing of these conversations that is important. Others benefit beyond what the premie posters actually know.

I reckon that your frustration will continue. I could also imagine that lets say - MJ has bitten the dust, EV is no more, the assets have been split amongst the needy - I would imagine you still wanting to confront magical thinking in other arenas and on other lists. Perhaps?

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 09:05:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Nice analysis, Peter
Message:
I think some of us relate to Jim's intolerance for all magical thinking because it is not only Rev Rawat that we are debunking but all fakery and god-scams. Even after Rawat goes I know I'll still be speaking out against silly Hindu gurus and other charlatans. Balyouguesswhat tainted them all for me and I am so grateful to him for that. ;)
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:51:19 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: No end to the fight . . .
Message:
Line 'em up: yer Scientologists, yer Moonies, yer Mormons, yer Jehovah's Witnesses, yer Evangelicals, yer HareKrishnas, yer IslamicJihad groups, Amway, Scamway, MoralMajority, JohnBirch Society, and on and on.

This could be a verrrry long list.

Best,
C.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:16:06 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wide Girl is here
Message:
And there will be no water left in the swimming pool. Just don't want Wide Boy to feel all alone, whoever he may be!

But really, people do need to take irony pills rather than think that you or anyone else on this Forum is 'out to get them.' I actually think you're a lot of fun, and people, myself included, do tend to take our own feelings, thoughts and belief systems way too seriously. Some of those barbs have me laughing for days. I remember that I really loved salam right from the start, because his sense of humor just busts me up. I actually wear some insults like a badge, so if I were ever to change my handle, I think I would pick Wide Girl, especially because I am getting past middle age and gravity is ruling.

Perhaps we should post on the Forum introductory notes:
****WARNING****
All sacred cows will be put out to pasture.

I should stop now. Problem is that I am sensitive but also have fun playing with the boys.

bests, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:24:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: All sacred cows will be put out to pasture
Message:
You're so kind, Fran. I prefer roasting them.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:59:53 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim / everyone
Subject: It's just different styles of personalities...
Message:
and some folks are comfortable using a more or less badgering or belittling style, and others something more fundamentally respectful or cordial. To be sure, schadenfreude will likely guarantee we'll be amused when someone gets blasted by a whithering dig, but the dig itself is usually way off topic to any given point being discussed. (I'm sorry, but I just don't have the energy to dredge up examples, and I am not singling you out.)

In any event, no blood is spilled, although words can wound. It is tough for fragile folk to have their cherished beliefs challenged, hell, it's tough for anyone. But people probably aren't coming here to be amused or confirmed in their beliefs only. Some are here, posters and lurkers alike, to learn, some posters (premies and exes) are trying to 'teach' (apparently), and some delight in wordslinging 'intellectual' fireworks and debate. Others like the 'front porch' sharing and sense of community. It's all good, and changing all the time. This is 'net vitality at its best.

But you ask 'So, please, you civil types, you caring types, you non-asshole types, you who know a 'better way', tell me please, how do you expect to ever talk with these people? [i.e. closeminded premies]

If all you're advocating is non-confrontation, I'm certianly not interested. But if you've got a kinder, gentler way of talking with these little scaredy cats, let me know. Do you or are you just blowing smoke?

Well, without admitting to being a non-asshole type, I sure wouldn't want to insist how anyone should talk; you are a big boy by now. Ever since I found F5, I have always appreciated your meticulous dissection of any given argument. To be honest I have sometimes cringed at what appears to be a haughty tone that occasionally accompanies your analyses, but then, I also know that the written word doesn't always convey the 'eyebrows' (as Zappa has said), that is, the underlying good humor or irony that can get lost in the shuffle of letterforms.

But you are pretty effective there also, of conveying disdain anyway, if I may say so. Again, schadenfreude keeps it entertaining when not directed at oneself. But IMO you really shine best when you dispassionately analyze a position, and (where do you find the time?) point-by-point dismantle the ludicrous assumptions of fantasy-think cult mentality. This is effective confrontation, IMO. Harshly antagonistic attitudinizing, or snide digs, often seem gratuitous, that's all.

That's it: just the facts, ma'am! Your devastating logic is weapon enough, Mr. 'Sword Of Discrimination'.

Aw, hell, on second thought, don't change too much, it wouldn't be natural. Your personality conveyed by your tone is 'you'. If it is a liability in one exchange or to one person, it is a benefit in another situation. Spice of life, and all that. Small price to pay for solid analytical skills enthusiastically deployed.

Best wishes, Tiger.
Carl

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:01:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: As usual, a great read on things! love -- n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 18:57:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: different styles...yes, Carl, nicely said
Message:
Anyone who could think Jim is gratuitously nasty must be dyslexic or has English as their second language. Yes, he is absolutely disdainful towards passive-aggressive fascists who use words to suit themselves in a most anti-social manner.

But anyone with half a brain will see that he is in fact one of the most caring and socially repsonsible people that I have the pleasure of knowing. He is fair and always honest. Admittedly his humor may be too dry for mnay as he does not call attention to his jokes or underline them in a heavy-janded amnner.

I also used to cringe at his ''haughty'' tone but I soon relaized that what was happening was that I was reacting as a crushed cult member who had never been allowed to express my own power. When I came into my own power I simply saw that Jim does not tolerate false modesty or fake humility. He is powerful and expects others to use their power and become his equal not some cringing toady.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 13:14:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What exactly does it mean to be civil here?
Message:
I don't know how to deal with them. How come you think there are nice peaceloving people here. You make it sound that there are those that are working behind enemey lines.

anyway, someone on Pia site said to be 'Pragmatic'. been thinking about it for few days but can't decide if being pragmatic is the way to go because that means a discussion of wether or not k works. It also assumes that k is a phenomina that can be replicated, measured, classified, blah balah balh.

Now what other nice words can we think of, objective v. subjective, ga ge go, no something more profound.

Maybe you should express yourself better, like what is it you want to say, why and how long you want to go talking about it. Also you most likely need a scribe to document the event and that what has been said should not be repeated.

Yet still we could be for a boxing match, either loose or win.

It is rather confusing, init?

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:57:41 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Logic VS Feeling... Why not BOTH? Whose afraid?..
Message:
If the premies who post here don't want to read what's on EPO, but rather argue on the forum, and then complain when people don't agree with them, and start name calling and dismissing everything here as bulshit, saying things that show they have not even bothered to read EPO extensively, it just wastes everyone's time.

I don't want to insult premies. I don't tell them that their feelings are invalid or wrong. Their feelings are real for them, I don't denigrate that. I do encourage them to examine facts AS WELL AS their feelings. If they can only hold on to their feelings by ignoring certain facts, I would hope they could come to see that it is possible to continue to have good feelings, without having to sacrifice rationality. It's possible to have both.

It's their unwillingness to look at facts that makes them angry because their beliefs are threatened. I know, I've been there. The truth is sometimes painful to our cherished beliefs.

Many of the premies come here to prove us WRONG, so they can continue in their ''belief relief''. When premies come onto the forum insulting exes, they have to realistically expect to get as good as they give. I don't think that not-contradicting or questioning magical thinking or faulty logic is particularly helpful, unless you want them to continue to think their feelings are ALL that matters, and we exes are all just lying scum, mental patients, drug addicts, or otherwise defective. If they can feel there is something wrong with us, we're easier to ignore. I'm sure they'd be happier if we didn't contradict them. But is that helping them? Wouldn't this place start sounding like ELK?

Confrontation on some level seems unavoidable, if premies come here to prove us WRONG, so they don't have to look at the facts. I have premie friends, and we agree to see each other as human beings with different points of view, but we ALSO don't discuss M., because it makes them uncomfortable. Since forum V is about discussing M., that solution is not practical here. I'm all for nice feelings, for premies and exes. But if we have to leave logic and reason and facts out of it, I can only say, isn't that what got us in trouble in the first place? Having to choose reason OR feeling, not BOTH?

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:35:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Most people think I am civil but I have limits
Message:
I was having a civil and friendly discussion with Bryn and Bob in a thread below about not liking Rev Rawat when my post drew this unsolicited response:

Mr Williams (an anonymous mugwump) wrote:

To: PatC
From: Mr. Williams

Re: your post

Irony content: 0%

What you wrote deeply touched me. I'm so sorry you felt rejected
and unloved. (Ed. Moi? Unloved and rejected?) That's a terrible, hellish thing to feel, especially regarding someone who may be the Lord, according to your beliefs at that time. I'm glad you've gotten the help you need to deal with that pain (Ed. Pain? Moi?)---I assume and hope you have.

I answered:

From: PatC

To: Mr. Williams

Subject: Go fuck yourself you anonymous moron

Message:
You don't know me you smarmy patronising piece of brainwashed mincemeat. Or should I put that politely - you're making assumptions you silly fellow. You really don't seem to speak English. Is it your second language in which case I'll cut you slack but really you always seem to read something entirely of your own fabrication sprung from a guru-addled brain into other peoples posts and yet never seem to actually address what was said in those posts. Why are you here?

Okay so I just posted this as an example of how not to be civil because it is a rare occurrence for me and it takes a lot to try my patience. Having assumptions made about me (who's life here is an open book) by the anonymous cipher MW finally tried mine.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:47:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Have you ever tried to get a rose to open
Message:
... by ripping all the petals off?

People are complex beings--intellect, emotion, psyche, etc. And when you disagree with them and they don't want to see it your way, it is not always the kindest thing in the world to continue to attack someone else's belief system. Even if you think it's bullshit. Even if you think it's a crutch. Even if you are 'right.' Who is to really say what that person needs at that moment, and what makes them feel good about waking up each morning and living in this world?

There's that corny old story of the sun and the wind having a contest to see who can get a man to take his coat off. The wind blows and blows, and he holds it closer. The sun comes out, and shines, and the man takes the coat off. When I feel attacked, I get defensive, and hold whatever makes me feel secure as tightly as I can, even if I turn into a raving asshole doing it.

Some people like to debate; some people don't. I don't really have any answers for you if you won't accept being non-confrontational as a good solution, although there are others, I'm sure. One other is tone. Sometimes when people get on me, it's their tone that makes me react. Confrontation does not always bring out the best in people. You're good at debate, so you love to do it. I have a friend who got very good at several games, and he always wanted to challenge people to play with him. But he always won. Pretty soon no one wanted to play.

I'm not trying to confront you here. I'm just trying to converse.
bests, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:52:56 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Have you ever tried to get a rose to open
Message:
well said sister
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:44:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: That's a bad analogy, Francesca
Message:
We are not simple town folk going about our lives, setting on our porches at dusk, whittling and listening to the radio. We are, like Chuck said, convening in discussions about m. The difficulty is that the premies are, as I've said, extremely skittish and mistrustful of reason. It's in their cult programming.

So I don't really see how, in this setting or any other m discussion, there's room for anything like the 'live and let live' philosophy you're talking about. On the other hand, maybe we should simply cancel the forum. That way no premie would be tempted to come here only to see their hackles raised, their defense mechanisms tested. Or maybe we should simply keep premies from posting on the forum so they can 'open' in their own sweet time. You know, let them read, just not post.

My point is this: there is no way to a) discuss m with premies; b) do so logically and c) avoid confrontation and their inevitable slide into defensiveness. From there, it's a question as to how inclined we are to bite our lips and say nothing in the face of evasion, lies, avoidance, insults and obfuscation. But at that point, once the defensiveness has raised its ugly head, the civility's lost in any event. Might as well just express yourself, is how I see it.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:15:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just find thier thinking funny and poke at it in
Message:
ways that highlight it's ridiculousness with as much
patience as you can muster. I cant do that with sanford, and I started out that way with charles glassman (or whatever) but
reading his slamming web crap pissed me off so I ended up
spitting at him.

So, I dont really know that I can say how to master the trick.
Brian had a point about the forum being angrier lately but then
even he couldnt show by example but was angry at the anger.

So, how to deal with the pests here and the insulting revisionism
and then change gears when a new person comes spouting the
same revisionism and not have anger at the premie speak and the
cult arrogance............it aint an easy thing to do!

The FA could usher them off to some other forum like they used to, IF they could somehow determine which premies were candidates
for kinder gentler treatment and which were just here to abuse us.

I couldnt help blast Mike Dettmers even though I knew he was
a major big fish and cooler heads should talk to him.
Cajole him, well, I might have not done harm to the process,
but I cant claim to have mastered the diplomatic
yet effective and funny approach that I reccomend.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:30:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You asked about Lifes Great, not Forum Five
Message:
And that's what I was responding to. You were talking about going over to Lifes Great and getting into discussions with the premies there. I can't see why you'd do that, any more than I can see why premies post here, although softening the full-on confrontration might not be a bad idea here either.

As Katie and I both agreed in some posts yesterday, and I said in a post to Brian yesterday, this Forum is really not a place for committed premies. Since we stay on topic here, there is no other discussion to get into with premies but something that we can only agree to disagree on. However, this is an open forum and there's no use in having what can only be a fundamental disagreement escalate into hostility on all sides. That's why I was mystified that Brian was practically inviting the premies to come over here and 'testify' and apologizing to them that their views aren't tolerated here.

I still have no idea why premies post here. None of them have ever answered that question. I suspect it's because they:
a) don't know
b) feel compelled to defend M
c) want to preach to us and hope we'll change our minds.

Go figure.

I do agree on one thing. If civility were to mean that the purpose of this Forum would be totally watered down and we'd have to listen to the joys of sat chit anand, I'm outta here. But I don't think we have to go to that extreme, either. I get worn down by all the snarling, myself, although I have a thicker skin that some.

bests, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:00:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This morning's example
Message:
I just had to share this. On Lifes Great [sic], I asked the premies if they didn't see a problem in that some, like SC there, think m's God but playing coy, whereas others, like bruno, think the exact opposite, that m's talkign straight and Shri Hans, for whatever reason, wasn't when he said things like 'whoever doesn't recognize the guru as God is blind'.

So this morning, I check LG[sic] and see that bruno's response -- not dealing with the immediate problem I just mentioed but back to try to make sense out of SH's words -- is that maybe SH was a poet and maybe his words were meant to have no more literal truth value than if they were surrealist or dadaist (read 'absurd') poetry.

Brother Karl's answer just has me scratching my head:

that we (you included) really dont know?
In the Bible, if I remember correctly, that they use the term (I dont know the correct english version) 'the son sitting at his almighty fathers right hand'. (The holy union - the father, the son and the holy spirit)
Is it possible that nobody is really lying or are retarded, but that there is a reality we dont know about?
Is it possible that Mahararji knows what he is talking about when he says that there is a possibility not to leave empty handed, and when he says that also he has a master?

Yeah, I know, they're all flowers and everything. And, don't forget, I'm an asshole. We can't forget that. Even still ....

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:44:41 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This example
Message:
>And, don't forget, I'm an asshole. We can't forget that.

How can we? You won't let us!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:05:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Good thing you've dropped using verbs, Chris
Message:
Helps us all see the fine points you're not making.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:31:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That place would bend my mind, not thanks! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 19:02:41 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Da da di do. Welcome to the Twilight Zone n/t
Message:
k
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 13:44:59 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Excellent Post, Francesca! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:22:53 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What exactly does it mean to be civil here?
Message:
They aren't coming here. You are chasing them down over there because to you it's sport.You operate on a very literal plain which is fine by me. But dont tell me I have to think what you think.Otherwise you are just another little Posse Comatatis bully telling me the world is flat.
If you are in such dire need of attention, of an audience ,get over to AG and play the game 'no holds barred' - if you be game?
Or you might seek therapy for Gradiose Syndrome.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:24:45 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Grandiose was the word
Message:
Typo
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:38:22 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: And Grandoise is the man!
Message:
Heck, I like Jim coming over there. He tastes great on toast with fried chillies and French beans in melted butter with a sour cream dip, yummy yummy yummy I want Jim in my tummy!
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:55:26 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: rawat's kids
Message:
A sweet friend of mine, (much younger friend!), is dating one of the rawat kids. My friend has moved to California, lost most local friends, alienated many friends and family, now gotten fired out there, has lost the apartment, all trying to keep that kid happy. Maybe I am as angry about that as about everything else! It's just not right. It won't work, and yet my friend is not open to listening. I wish I knew what to do, and yet I don't even know what to do right here in my own home.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:06:51 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: rawat's kids
Message:
the situation of people putting themselves in difficult situations to be around, hang out with, etc any of the family of rawats has been constant from the first day.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 13:58:33 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: rawat's kids
Message:
Is he from Massachusetts?
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:02:48 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: If your friend wants to be a dork
Message:
let him be, but I do sugget to keep in touch. See what gossip you can hear.

Oh and watch out. Rawat has already heared about this.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:09:48 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Salam
Subject: If your friend wants to be a dork
Message:
Please explain. Is there some danger? To me?
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:06:30 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Hey Timmi
Message:
I don't have children, but I work with college students (age 19-23, usually). I think you are doing the right thing if you tell them what you think, and why, but I also have found, through experience, that people that age have to find their own way. Some of the kids I have worked with have asked my advice, but then done the opposite - that is the way it goes. The only thing you can do is be honest with them. If they do not choose to listen that is their problem.

I've actually had the same problem with people my own age - maybe you have too. I guess they just have to learn from experience. I didn't listen to a lot of people while I was growing up, and I did have some bad experiences because of it, but they ended up being helpful to me. I will hope that your friend learns from his/her experience - and it might help him/her later.

Please remember: you didn't cause it - and you don't have to cure it. And sometimes you just have to let go.

I know it isn't easy.

Best wishes to you -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:00:06 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: rawat's kids - what do you mean?
Message:
Your friend is dating one of Maharaji's children? If so, which one (not relevant, but I'm nosey)?

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:13:48 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: JHB
Subject: rawat's kids - what do you mean?
Message:
But, in any case, it's Daya.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:03:30 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: JHB
Subject: rawat's kids - what do you mean?
Message:
I don't mind telling you which kid, but I am concerned about my friend. All that has happened since the move to CA has been bad and I hesitate to say too much, and yet it is killing me!
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 10:27:45 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: rawat's kids and your friend
Message:
you don't say if your friend is a premie/someone who has recieved knowledge. it might make a difference. California is a land of broken dreams. people come here from all over the country and the owrld, thinking they can have a piece of the fantasy, and they get eaen alive when they get here. Even me. And I am one hell of a cynic and touchy as hell about being taken in.

You do need to talk to your friend about the blatant dangers that are waiting in spades everywhere out here: drugs, sex,cons, promises, rock n roll fame illusions, acting illusions, the street crime and gang presence that is very real and has saturated the social experience of the everyday out here. If nothing else, regardless of what his fantasies may be about coming out here, it all comes to tragedy if he lets himself lose his life or his safety in pursuit of his particular dream. do what you can to pop that bubble and get his awareness back onto his own reality. If he can't hear the critical urgency of putting that first while here, do what you can to point him back home, to leave the state and go back where he knows how to live. tell him this warning is coming from someone who moved here with dreams and saw all too clearly what was really here.

Try to get him to realize that he is out of his league, trying to compete and survive under these conditions.
Daya has a sheltered, priveleged, provided life. Your friend does not. He wasn't born into it and can't retreat into the womb of cossetted family protection that she can [go home to, to mom and dad and sis and the servants in malibu,] when the date is over. Someone and something needs to get this to hit him and sink in before he comes to be another statistic.

I am not kidding. He isn't in the Billionaire Boy's Club. He doesn't have the layers of insulation from peril that she has.

Ask him simply to go home. Harp on it repeatedly, until it dawns on him what that means. For her, it's easy. Thousands of strangers, the world over, have paid for her home and her needs all her life. Who pays for his?
Unless his mom and dad are still alive in America, the truth is, for him, no one does -- except him.

and that is the difference between us Real people, and the unreal world of the Rawats.

I like Daya. It's not her fault her life is like it is. But she isn't the girl next door, and he can't date her as if she is. She lives in a different world than he does.
She can always go home.
~~> can he ?

make him see it. better men than he, have had the sense to declare defeat, get out and go home, before california raped and robbed them and left them for dead. It's a deadly illusion to come here. This place is NOT what it looks to be. It destroys people.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:55:15 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Krishna abuse in today's Salon Magazine
Message:
That would be salon.com...the lead story.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:57:04 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: oops! subscribers only past the first 3 para (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:56:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Purpose of the Forum and Premie/Cult Sites
Message:
Down below, Jim quoted a post from Brian about the 'purpose' of the Forum and the ex-premie website. I thought it was an opportunity to talk about that, and to see if the 'purpose' is being acheived, and whether the various premie 'offical' and 'unofficial' sites enhance that or not. IMO, the Forum is indeed advancing towards its purpose, and the various cult websites are helping, quite a lot. Specifically, Brian said:

...There is a consensus on that forum, as there is in any cross-section of the population, but that's not the same as having a purpose.

Purpose implies more than talk. It defines actions, and an online forum isn't a place where people can do any real action beyond sharing their words. The purpose of an online forum IS talk.

I disagree about 'talk' being the only 'purpose' of the Forum. I think in all the 'talk' there is a lot of information conveyed. Information about what is going on in the Maharaji cult now, what has happened in the past, personal experiences of people in, and getting out of, the cult, and information about Maharaji's and the cult's behavior, currently and in the past.

And this is more than just 'talk.' In that sense every time somebody 'comes out' as an ex-premie, and everytime someone who knows reveals information about Maharaji that has been repressed and censored and 'x-rated' out of existence for so long, they are, indeed, taking action, even though to some people it might just seem like 'talk.' And in this sense, the Forum has accomplished a LOT on the road to that 'purpose.'

Despite what our reaction might be to hate sites like that of Charles, the graduate of a large university and prominent law school, and Pia Grunbaum, those sites really furthers that purpose, because it brings attention to the fact that there is LOTS of controversy surrounding Maharaji, and disconnect between what he says, what he does, and his attempts to obliterate his past. They advertise those controversies to even more people, and most people will try to find out what they are talking about, if they don't already know, and end up here. In short, they bring attention to the information and that is lethal to Maharaji expanding his cult, and actually serves to help people get out of the cult, too.

I thought for a long time that we would simply be ignored on an offical level by the Maharaji cult, and in any vocal sense from the Premies except on Forum 5. That would actually, IMO, be the best course for EV and Maharaji. But that didn't last and I think it's Maharaji's ego that, once again, is his undoing.

The first crack in the damn was the Elan Vital FAQs, which are not only misleading and downright false, but also stupid and amateurish.

Next was Maharaji's own website, which is also misleading and false in a number of statements, but which also is now languishing in disuse, apparently because he has nothing more to say, or maybe is giving up.

Then there are the Pia and Charles developments, which obviously have Elan Vital approval, or else they wouldn't be allowed to use M's pictures.

To this date, not ONE of the cult sites will allow open discussion, and all of them that allow input engage in outrageous censorship to keep the company line going. This, again, is obvious to anyone with a brain, is counter-productive to their goals, and does nothing more than inflame and advertise Maharaji's many problems, both image-wise, and factually.

I think it's great. So, I agree with Pat C that we should be thanking Charles and Pia, at least to the extent that they help advertise the information available from ex-premies.

Finally, it's pretty clear that we are having much, much more of an effect than we ever thought we would have. This website has changed everything. It has brought Maharaji from denegrating the Internet, to desperately grasping for ways to try to counter-act the free flow of information, which I think he knows is his major problem.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:10:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You said it well, Joe
Message:
Joe said:

Finally, it's pretty clear that we are having much, much more of an effect than we ever thought we would have. This website has changed everything. It has brought Maharaji from denegrating the Internet, to desperately grasping for ways to try to counter-act the free flow of information, which I think he knows is his major problem.

Cynthia replies:

Joe, I loved your post and agree with everything you said. I didn't even have time to read all the posts below, but wanted to respond.

Aside from the recent broohaha about Charles, I have been been saying for quite a while now that the backlash is good. This website and forum have had extraordinaroy affects upon EV/M.

I am not afraid of him. I know too much. I don't fear lawsuits or defammation of character (although it pisses me off a lot). You know what I mean? I post here as myself, I don't fear lawyers, and I know a lot. I know a lot of information from personal experience of the illegalities of a particular project called DECA/IMMCO The backlash is a good sign that there is a weakening in the structure of that insidious cult. I've been saying this for quite a while now.

Reading the premie comments on Pia's site about the cult issue is quite an experience in total denial. I don't view them as enemies but victims.

Whatever EV/M and his underground website makers want to do is okay with me. Their censorship says it all.

I don't see this as a 12 step place either. I hate the AA 12 step program. I think that's a cult in some ways. But that's another topic.

So I just wanted to but in to tell you Joe, that I enjoyed your post, don't have time to debate or even converse, but want to add my comments. How 'bout that ad in the French newspaper? Who's being defensive???

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia, who is up to her ears in boxes and dust, and learning to become a minimalist.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:39:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: free flow of information
Message:
To me that is the purpose of this site. Katie and Brian seem to think that is is some sort of AA group to help premies exit the cult and that we should be bending over backwards to accommodate them. I agree with them that we should not be treating premies as enemies however Mr Glasser chose to be our debating opponent. I am treating him as such not as an enemy. The AA aspect of FV is only one aspect of it. Many purposes are accomplished by the ''free flow of information.''

Here in SF, the Internet capital of the world, most of my customers are net geeks. they argue constantly about copyright, control etc and in the end they all agree that the net will never be able to be controlled. It is blowing the lid off secrets, conspiracies and cults including consumer rip-offs. Only the big boys have the money and lawyers to punish offenders which is why I don't tangle with them. They may have the power but they still do not have the right. Might is not right. The truth is. Isn't it fun?

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:42:32 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: free flow of one-sided information
Message:
Katie and Brian seem to think that is is some sort of AA group to help premies exit the cult and that we should be bending over backwards to accommodate them.

You're wrong to talk about 'Katie and Brian' as if your describing siamese twins. If that were an accurate description of what we each believe, then there are also others who have posted the same thoughts. You omit them from the entity you create when you lump just 2 of us together.

I'm sure that you and Charles (no, the OTHER one) agree on a lot, but you would become offended to see yourself and your opinions lumped together with his as often as Katie and I are equated on this forum.

I do think that the forum sometimes serves some as a sort of AA meeting. Then they get past that and the forum either serves them personally on some other level or else they stop coming back. I don't think that the AA analogy sums up the reasons that people post here. It doesn't apply to me.

I agree with them that we should not be treating premies as enemies however Mr Glasser chose to be our debating opponent. I am treating him as such not as an enemy.

You're not in a debate with anyone unless they are invited and wecomed to the event. Usually there's a seat for them. You may internally view Charles (no, the OTHER one) that way, but because of the atmosphere on the forum he is staying away.

His views are not tolerated here.

And he's not the only one. Look at the index and find the premies. How many did you find?

Look at Lifes Great and compare your figures. They are not going to click on any link to this forum and join in any discussion based on the way that they have been treated in the past, or the treatment they've seen dished out to others.

I've seen your name in the index there. How far did they have to bend over backwards for you to post there? They agree with you or they argue with you. But you are not under the threat there of the sort of harrassment that they have experienced by daring to post here.

You called Carlos a 'kind and good man' there. Carlos is not welcomed here. Who's loss is that? You didn't get to meet Charles (yeah, the SAME one) there, so you never got a chance to say that about him based on how he treated you in a post.

Carlos' views are not tolerated here.

How would you like to be slammed here as being some sort of traitor for saying nice words to Carlos just because you meant it?

I've been accused of being an apologist for defending premies' rights to put websites online exposing their treatment here. I was accused of that on F5.

I've been accused of being a poor representative of EPO for posting on Lifes Great that premies are indeed treated shabbily here and that this forum has a lot of angry people in it. I was accused of that on F5.

If this is how the people who post here treat me, when I am not a premie, then think how premies are treated here for saying the same things.

My views are BARELY tolerated here.

There are plenty of people who post on this forum who find a way to bend over backwards to make premies as uncomfortable here as possible.

That IS tolerated here, and that's a sad fact, Pat.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:29:54 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: free flow
Message:
We are all individuals. the internet does enhance spontaneous (impulsive) reactions. I cussed out a premie today because of his stupid ot flaming. generally I like to think the person behind the name is sincere. I get very pissed when there are personal , below the belt, attacks. When premies just come here to drop satsang and spam they cannot expect respect.
Dialogue is very rare. New posters should been given the chance to engage in it though.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:02:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: You're dead wrong, Brian.
Message:
You called Carlos a 'kind and good man' there. Carlos is not welcomed here. Who's loss is that? You didn't get to meet Charles (yeah, the SAME one) there, so you never got a chance to say that about him based on how he treated you in a post.

Carlos' views are not tolerated here.

How would you like to be slammed here as being some sort of traitor for saying nice words to Carlos just because you meant it?

You've got to be kidding. Carlos HAS been posting on this forum and has been very well received. So eat your wpords, Mr Holier-than-thou...

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:19:21 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Okay
Message:
Carlos has been posting here. Whatever. He's posted here so rarely that I don't see it, but you've proven your point.

You would know. You've certainly been 'welcoming' to premies here.

You missed the blood-bath Gerry. You'd have fit right in.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:00:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Damn, I missed the bloodbath and I love a good fig
Message:
ht.

Hey Brian, go fuck yourself you wimpy fucking whiny hypocritical pussy.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:58:20 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: untrue, Pat
Message:
Katie and Brian seem to think that is is some sort of AA group to help premies exit the cult and that we should be bending over backwards to accommodate them.

The ONLY reason I got so involved with this in the first place is because a very close premie friend (someone who I really cared about) killed himself. He was not able to find happiness through practicing knowledge, and he thought that meant he was a flawed person who did not deserve to be alive. I seek to offer people who feel this way an alternative - to let them know that other people feel the same way that they do, and that these other people - and by extension, themselves, are ALL RIGHT.

Frankly, I don't care if anyone who feels that they are 'very happy' practicing knowledge and following Maharaji exits or not. I think the site needs to be here for people who are having doubts, who may feel bad about themselves for not finding what Maharaji says you can find by practicing his meditation techniques, or who may have real doubts about following M through life.

You wrote:
I agree with them that we should not be treating premies as enemies however Mr Glasser chose to be our debating opponent. I am treating him as such not as an enemy.

From what I have heard from Charles, he would respect anyone who addressed him civilly. Unfortunately, ex-premies are at a disadvantage where he is concerned because he was provoked, either directly or indirectly, to put up his site because of bad treatment at the hands of at least one ex-premie. The ridicule and non-specific vilification he has received from other ex-premies has made him unwilling to change his site - at least for the moment. I strongly disagree with the generalizations he has made about ex-premies on his site, and I have let him know that. But frankly, what I, or Brian, say to him doesn't make that much difference when other ex-premies keep on calling him names, ridiculing him, posting his picture on-line, and so forth.

I am seeing that people here seem to want an enemy that is more vulnerable and more easily approachable than Maharaji. They seem to have picked Charles to be the latest 'enemy' (I have seen this happen to many other people - Michael Dettmers and Pia are probably the latest victims). Are we really achieving anything by attacking and ridiculing Charles? I know it feels good, or is 'fun' for the moment, doesn't anyone want to talk honestly to Charles and ask him WHY he thinks what he does? Some of the stuff posted on this forum and elsewhere lately reminds me of elementary school stuff. It EMBARRASSES me - sure it's 'funny', but when we are dealing with a human being who is really just another person like us - and has never claimed to be god or anything, it makes me ashamed.

Long rant, and not solely addressed to you, Pat.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:59:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hey, you siamese twins
Message:
Katie and Brian you know me well enough by now to know that I do not dusagree with you philosophically on too many points. Where we part company is in thinking that anything can be controlled. I put in my two cents and HOPE that that will influence people but I don't EXPECT it to.

Katie you said you feel that you are here mostly to help people who ar e NOT happy with rawat. Brian wants all premies to feel welcome here. This is tricky. Most of my friends actaully still are premies. I have warned them about FV and told them not to come here unless they are no longer happy with Rawat. LG is better for them. That's my take. FV is not ever going to be friendly to non-qyestioning premies. As much as I would like to see that happen (not much) it never will. You know that. Not as long as Janet can utter death threats to M (which is fine by me because I know her and realize that she has just gone over the top.)

Thanks to Chris Dickey (who has been nothing but warm and friendly to me in email) non-questioning premies have LG and they accept us there but that's because they are all maverick Lone Rangers. I know three of them personally. Industrial strength church ladies will even find LG heretical. They do not have a forum because they don't want one. Now if Charles would attach an unmoderated forum to his site .....

basically I don't see too much real disagreement between you guys and me or even really you and Jim and Joe. We are all here for very sincere and serious reasons which happen to coincide but not mirror each other. I'm here to help demystify the Maharaji superstition. I can be nice to premies on LG because they are sincere but I have published over there my unmystical deconstruction of M without pulling too many punches. But yes, this is a bit of a battle and yes, I think you know that I know when to pull my punches.

Excuse typos and non sequiturs. Feeling a bit excited. This joint is the best forum on the net. Not only is it about something that we all once had in common. It is also full of the most interesting and original thinking people on the net. No we aren't all lowlifes. Most of us are a much higher life form than the average citizen.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:00:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: when did i utter death threats?
Message:
I truly do not remember doing it. I may have been working thru the anger stage of grieving, or i may have been joining in some mood of mischeif at the moment. if i really posted something that sounded serious to you or anyone else, show it to me. maybe i was misread.

i will say this much: i have come to understand that the death of any living being does not bring what the killer thought it would, when they set out to extinguish a life. the moment before it happens, and the moments after, are two completely different experiences.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:17:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I agree with some of what you said but
Message:
... I went over to see what the fuss is about on Lifes Great, and Brian's post is practically encouraging the premies to come over here and testify about their love for M. I know that you and Brian are not the same person (DUH), so I'm glad you said:

Frankly, I don't care if anyone who feels that they are 'very happy' practicing knowledge and following Maharaji exits or not. I think the site needs to be here for people who are having doubts, who may feel bad about themselves for not finding what Maharaji says you can find by practicing his meditation techniques, or who may have real doubts about following M through life.

I think we can be civil to dyed-in-the-wool premies, but I don't see any reason why we can't have an ex-pemie forum and not apologize for it. I'm glad for your insights on Charles, but he lurked here and read posts for long enough to see that what he is saying about this site and the majority of the people on it is flat not true. Hopefully he will get over his anger as well.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:12:22 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I agree with some of what you said but
Message:
Brian's post is practically encouraging the premies to come over here and testify about their love for M.

As opposed to...? Telling them that they are welcome to post as long as their views are the same as whoever else happens to be posting here? Telling them to not post anything here ever?

Most of them have seen that to be the actual 'policy'. It's as unspoken here as the phrase 'Don't let Jagdeo near the kids' is at EV events, but it's the bottom line policy.

It's enforced here by a complete intolerance for views that are not part of the forum consensus formed by those who wandered in and quickly learned what to not say here without being ridiculed. Now they enforce that view on the ones who find this forum tomorrow.

I think we can be civil to dyed-in-the-wool premies, but I don't see any reason why we can't have an ex-pemie forum and not apologize for it.

That forum already exists. It's the complete lack of civility that I'm talking about here. There is no tolerance shown to premies here.

And the level of intolerance has reached a point where the crowd just recently cheered when seeing someone's right to anonymity in posting on this forum stripped publicly by someone who was supposed to be protecting it.

To me it was like seeing someone ooh and aah over a valuable bloody ring that was just handed to them, without giving any thought for the person who just lost a finger.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:31:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: You are right about civility
Message:
It does seem to be lacking at times, on BOTH sides. You defend Charles G, but he's whining and you're patronizing him a bit. I agree that we should be as kind as we can, but if his excuse for a little rough behavior was to put up that site that he is intelligent enough to know is not accurate, I hope he can get over it. The word for his behavior is retaliation, and I think it's a bit over the top.

But I also know that a committed premie and I are not going to agree on the subject of K and M, so why labor the point? With the premies I know, we don't talk about it head on, like the premies and exes both do on this Forum. There seems to be no real purpose for a committed premie to post here, really, except to preach their views, believing that somehow we'll see the light. And of course, some one is going to come along and tell them to stuff it, if they keep it up.

As long as we stay 'on topic' here, it's going to clash. But as long as premies are civil about the way they state their views, I don't mind much. You were very accurate when you described on Lifes Great how many of the premies come here angry, and they get it right back. When they are civil, I don't mind so much.

I can honestly say in the approximately 6 months that I have posted here that the majority of the premies that have posted here are as nasty as they accuse the exes of being. Erika Andersen's attitude was great, and CD is a pleasant guy, and right now Marolyn Kyntire is a welcome presence. Mr. Williams made a civil post today, and I was glad to see it. I always thought he had it in him.

But with most premies that choose to post here, it's like putting oil and water together -- it won't mix. I have friends and even family members that are premies, and we don't face it head on, mainly talk around the edges. But we have lots of other common ground, so we meet there.

I do not think there's as much of a join-it-or-leave-it dynamic as you indicate, although there are definitely some opinionated people on this board. I suppose I'm one of them.

But for some reason you seem to want premies to post here, and you want something to happen that is not happening. I think you're still rolling it out, perhaps working it out in your own head. I'm certainly willing to listen.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:09:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: 'Civility' in this context is an empty term NT
Message:
dddddddd
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:19:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: You're right about it all. Great response. NT
Message:
k
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:21:19 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Now you're talking, Brian
Message:
I really enjoy your writing especially:

''It's as unspoken here as the phrase 'Don't let Jagdeo near the kids' is at EV events, but it's the bottom line policy.''

And:

''the forum consensus formed by those who wandered in and quickly learned what to not say here without being ridiculed''

That's hopefully only a phase that we all go through.

But your last paragraph was a bit purple. Anyway I have drag myself away while you all have more fun behind mmy back.

I'm with you all the way on civility Brian. Netsters are a rude bunch especially those who abuse anonymity. I am all for keeping to the highest standards here but unfortunately mine are High Chruch highbrow and I do a lot of sighing.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:19:11 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A little dramatic, Brian
Message:
Most of the people here are good people, and if there was an inappropriate reaction to the Charles Glasser thing, there were mitigating circumstances. So please don't paint us all with your new intolerance brush. I'm sure you could use some of that paint yourself:-)

Hey, I'm just trying to be clever with the intolerance brush thing! Give me a break if it doesn't pan out right. Sheesh!

John the definitely going to sleep

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:28:24 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hey Francesca
Message:
Well, I am glad you agreed (or at least I THINK you did) about people who are genuinely happy following Maharaji. This site is not for them (IMHO, anyway).

Re Charles - I wish people would confine themselves to criticizing his site, rather than Charles as a person. I know that I myself would provide plenty of entertainment for people (if they were so inclined) if I put up a 'ME' site on the internet. I'm guessing the same is true for most people here.

Re Brian - THANK YOU for emphasizing that I am not Brian! Of course we don't always agree on stuff - but thankfully, agreeing about ex-premie versus premie issues is not a focal point in our relationship (believe it or not!) However, if you have read Brian's recent posts, I think you will realize that he feels he has been muzzled too long by being 'WEBMASTER', and that he has not gotten to express himself since he has taken on/been thrust into that role. So I guess y'all are gonna hear about it now :)!

I do feel bad that very few people who use this site seem to care about Brian as a person (I am not addressing this to you, Francesca - at all). I'm guessing that the EV monitors probably know more about Brian's history with Maharaji than anyone else on this site does. That makes me feel bad.

Take care, you -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:37:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hey Katie
Message:
You said:

Well, I am glad you agreed (or at least I THINK you did) about people who are genuinely happy following Maharaji. This site is not for them (IMHO, anyway).

Yes, you got it. And it would be better to criticize Charles' site, rather than Charles. I'm sure if and when I put up a 'me' page that someone will have a field day with it.

Hopefully Brian will be able to be the Webmaster and express himself. I don't see why not. I think he's going to have to remind us for a while that his opinions are his own. Then he can post the Webmaster stuff separately as Webmaster.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:50:40 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Francesca and Everyone
Subject: Hey Gals
Message:
Well, I am glad you agreed (or at least I THINK you did) about people who are genuinely happy following Maharaji. This site is not for them (IMHO, anyway).

With all due respect, there are no people genuinely happy following Maharatji. Some of them seem smiley but I can't remember the last time I met an active pwk with both a smile and a personality that was in the least bit normal.

I hope you don't think I'm being too hard on you, but I had to get this out of my system.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 14:25:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hey Steve
Message:
No I don't think you are being too hard on me. You are just expressing your opinion - and I don't have a problem with that at all. I don't agree with you though.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:05:09 (GMT)
From: MW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You must not get out much.....
Message:
S. Quint wrote:
With all due respect, there are no people genuinely happy following Maharatji. Some of them seem smiley but I can't remember the last time I met an active pwk with both a smile and a personality that was in the least bit normal.

Steve----what an unbelievably, laughably foolish and arrogant statement to make. Steve Quint, omniscient being? Steve Quint, able to inhabit the body of and perfectly interpret the exact experience of thousands of people? Steve Quint----is he God?

Please, man. This is the kind of wacky shit that gives y'all a bad name. I'm still shaking my head in disbelief.

Can you say PROJECTION? I knew you could.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:03:34 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: MW
Subject: You must not get out much.....
Message:
Steve----what an unbelievably, laughably foolish and arrogant statement to make. Steve Quint, omniscient being? Steve Quint, able to inhabit the body of and perfectly interpret the exact experience of thousands of people? Steve Quint----is he God?

It's YOUR line of argument that's laughably foolish here, and it's YOU that's being arrogant in making it. One doesn't have to be God in order to observe people and come to certain conclusions based on those observations.

BTW, I thought it was quite appropriate, when as part of the entertainment at Amaroo there was someone doing comedy impersonations on stage.
I think many premies in their real lives are just that...impersonators doing their impressions.... of happy people::))

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:54:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: You must not get out much.....
Message:
Joey,
I have got to agree with you here. I would say the same for certain religious fanatics who exagerate, hype, and embellish their experiences and feel as if they have to have a smile on their face constantly and be 'on' in case a potential convert comes along. They are different from the blokes who may have spiritual beliefs but don't feel compelled to be a walking advertisement for constant happiness and miraculous claims.

It just isn't authentic to be so blissed out all the time and it shows with those strained jaw muscles that are forced into smiling all the time. I'm not blaming premies for feeling this pressure to proselytize and be blissed, it's part of the conditioning.

I think that it's just not REAL to keep the bliss pumped up all the time.

If there are premies who do not put incredible trips on themselves when they are NOT Happy, I would like to meet one, but I haven't yet.
Helen

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:14:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: No, you're calling it like you see it ;--) n/t
Message:
smile
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:36:03 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: What you wrote is confusing
Message:
Katie,

You said:-

I'm guessing that the EV monitors probably know more about Brian's history with Maharaji than anyone else on this site does. That makes me feel bad.

Brian doesn't seem to have a journey entry, and even thought he's been unfairly constrained by being webmaster, we don't learn that much about our personal histories from each other's forum posts.

So, why do you feel bad?

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:42:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Not really
Message:
I know a lot about the other people on this forum (JW, Pat Conlon, come to mind) who do not have Journeys entries because of reading their forum posts. If I'm interested in knowing something about them, I ask them - and I remember it. Don't recall that anyone has EVER asked Brian about his history with M - maybe they just take it for granted.

Sorry, but that's how I feel - and you can likely confirm it with the EV monitors :).
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:50:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sorry....
Message:
....but I guess I just don't do those sort of conversations on-forum. So if someone doesn't do a journey, and doesn't post that sort of stuff on-line, I won't get to read it.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:54:24 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Umm...
Message:
Has anyone here taken the trouble to talk to Brian about his experiences when he was a premie?

Maybe he's just some guy like Stonor (sorry, Anna!) that I picked up off the street...a non-anything?

John - not addressed to you, of course.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:09:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: John's right about Brian, Katie
Message:
His posts are usually quite impersonal and editorial and so far much appreciated by me. I think that one good thing that will come from this is that the FA has now asserted his ''ownership'' of the forum separately from EPO. This will free Brian up to post here without wearing a cap marked Webmaster. So go for it Brian, you know that I'm here more for the beautiful and interesting people who post here that many of the discussions (includng this one) and I want to know ALL about them even premies. So where's that Journey, Brian. I should speak. Sorry guy. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Take your WM cap off and let's see what under it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:08:35 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It doesn't work like that
Message:
Katie,

Who has ever asked me about my experiences with Maharaji, and I'm nothing special on EPO? I really don't understand what you're getting at. I think Brian and I may be a bit alike - we have expected other people to be interested in us. Well, I've learnt it doesn't work that way.

I am interested in other people. If, along the line, someone else becomes interested in me, then that's nice. But I no longer expect other people to be interested in me. Just look at the reponse I get to my posts about living in Latvia:-)

John the no longer expecting anything from other people.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:14:03 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Hey, I'm not Brian!
Message:
And don't take what I say as that Brian has expected other people to be interested in him - he has not! I'm the one who is bringing up this point.

John, I think people HAVE asked you about your experiences with M here - at least when you started posting - and maybe after. I usually do that - and so do other people. I think you got K in the early 70's in the UK (I know Anon thinks you were the first person to give him satsang). I think (not sure) that you lived in the ashram for a while. And I won't go into details, but I understand what you are saying when you mention 'bereavement' - and also some other personal experiences you have had since. (I have a good memory - until lately, anyway).

Actually, Brian's story is quite interesting - sort of pre-history where most of us are concerned.

Love to you, John - I really wasn't aiming the above at you -
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:13:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Are you still awake or you're an early riser?
Message:
It must be 4am in Latvia. I'll phone you tomorrow or Wed. I enjoyed talking to Jim so much on the phone yesterday that now I want to call everyone whom I did not meet at latvian night in SF (you that Hate Club that Brian and the premies don't like.) You've got my number Brian and Katie I never talked to you yet. How about it? I just love all you guys. Now Jhn will give me a lecture about misusing the word love. hey I'm an American and we love hamburgers.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:19:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I hate talking on the phone
Message:
And since I'm 45 now, I'm allowed (by myself) to be eccentric. Everyone who knows me knows that I like to talk via e-mail. Does that make me a member of a 'Hate Club' ('Hate talking on the phone')?

Brian's posts about his past history are all in the Forum I archives. I read them before I ever met him - and before I ever posted on the site. I know most people do not do that now - and that's OK. But you would think that someone would even be interested?

Sorry to belabor this point, Pat, but sometimes we take a lot for granted.

Hey, even John lets me write 'love' now!
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:26:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I hate talking on the phone - me too
Message:
I hear you loud and clear. I used to be a letter writer before the net and email and this forum are more enjoyable to me than the phone. The phone was just a way of hearing someone's voice. I never expect much from phone calls. I'm more of a writer than a talker. I have got to drag myself off and shower before dinner and spend some real time with my family now. You watch. Take it from an old communist hippy fag (plus many other incarnations) only good will come out of all of this. Have fun and be healthy, wealthy and wise.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:32:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: HERE HERE, good posts, Pat and Joe
Message:
I agree whole heartedly. This site has multiple purposes, and telling the story is one of them. Freedom of information is a powerful thing. We could never achieve such a presence on TV or radio as we can on the 'net.

For many purposes, the 'net is the great equalizer. Search for some terms, find the info -- whether it has been put up there by a multimillion dollar international organization, or a bunch of likeminded average folks.

love, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:06:44 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji, Whither Goest Thou?
Message:
It's clear and obvious to anyone with an intact mind that Maharaji is finished. What options does he have of places to go from here? Rhetorical question, perhaps, but a necessary one.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:30:36 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Maharaji, Whither Goest Thou?
Message:
Back to India would work for me. And stay there.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:38:12 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: As a premie looking for a partner
Message:
Timmi,

Since I left my wife, another premie, 10 years ago, I have been looking for a partner. While I was still a premie (until two and a half years ago) I always considered how I would bring up my devotion to maharaji with my future potential partner.

I have to tell you, my thoughts were always underhand, devious, unfair, and downright deceitful. It's cognitive dissonance gone mad. Your husband probably loves you and needs you, but also needs you to join his mindset which would make him soooo happy.

I feel very ashamed about my thoughts then, and so free now that I can date without my guru as chaperone.

I hope it works out for you.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:49:39 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: JHB
Subject: As a premie looking for a partner
Message:
Thanks, John. It would undoubtedly make him 'happy' if I were to 'ask for knowledge'. That is just not going to happen. In the first place, I couldn't do it and keep a straight face; I'd laugh my head off! And secondly, I'm not about to join rawat's mind game and cult. Fortunately, my husband has not made an issue of that, and I don't think he will. It would not make him 'happy' in the long run, because it would not be me that did it. If I were young and desperate, or when I was, I might have done that simply to 'keep' him and to make him happy. I know who I am, and I sure as heck don't need rawat to help me find that person! I'm okay. Not perfect, but okay. And if everything I need is inside me, why in blazes would I go outside me, in other words to rawat, to get it? I do NOT understand this! How does he get people in his grip and them keep them there for decades? There has to be something going on. I know he keeps telling people they need him, they will forget, etc. Is that all it takes? Are they so blinded by their first experiences that he can keep them his slaves simply by telling them they need him? Unbelievable. Can anybody shed some light on his enslavement powers for me?
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:21:39 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: How prems get hooked!
Message:
Timmi, the hook is very similar to the Christian re-born experience. There is an appt. set up with your destiny. It's called the Knowledge session the same way a newby Christian accepts Christ in their life.

The devotion and dedication is the most important step in becoming initiated. It doesn't matter to spirit whether you accept Jesus, Buddah, or TopCat. What does make a difference is the flavor of the devotion. One's experiences will take on the historical context of the religion. This, of course, happens because the newly devoted gathers as much information about the religion, and imitates the current and respected followers. At some point, the mimicking becomes in-grained.

As you pursue your spiritual path-your blessings take on the characteristics of your faith. That's why prems and Christians alike are constantly having their belief systems confirmed. It's like the chicken and the egg paradox.

One's spirituality is enforced by their peers -- what you lack at one point in your experience, others supply with theirs. Almost all religious sects are convinced that their path is the only true path and thus set up an Us and Them or Us versus Them confliction.

This is what starts to break-down the critical thinking faculties. Religious beliefs are the highest priorities for the religious believer. The mind and ego manipulate reality to make it fit the belief system.

This is one of the reasons that prems appear stupid. They're it's intellectural stupidity but reliegious survival at stake here.

But then, I could be wrong!

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)
From: PatC channeling a premie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hate Club! ANGRY, BIITER AND rejected
Message:
Brilliant, Deborah. Am I glad you came on board. Thanks for the beautifully written post.

You said: ''It doesn't matter to spirit whether you accept Jesus, Buddah, or TopCat. What does make a difference is the flavor of the devotion.''

Precisely as Rev Rawat would say: ''Belief is Relief.''

Well, I feel much better in every way NOT having the Maharajism BS - you know what I mean because you invented the term. ;)

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:58:26 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Rats and mr. Skinner
Message:
How can he enslave good people for 30 years+?
It is not the abundance of bliss (experience).
He has to start with a 'searching person' .
Mostly, someone who has had a lot of dysfunction in the past, with questionable self esteem.
There is the demand for an authentic path, with not too much effort and strain of the brain...
Here! the key to the kingdom, (no, it doesn't cost, just show that you're sincere)
Just listen to satsang, (or get synchronized, whatever they call it now.)
A complete set of beliefs is being programmed into the aspirant,
(just show that you REally want.....)
Eventually the 'knowledge' is imparted, a set of med techs which occasionally, when the 'stars are in the right place' yield an experience, always with the promise of more.....
THAT is what the premie gets hooked, the occasional reward with the promise of more..
Mr. or dr. Skinner did his famous experiments of behaviour modification with rats in the 30's and 40's. He discovered that the rats learned new behaviours best , when he did not reward them on a consistent basis, but with long periods of no rewards.
It made the rats anticipate the reward, and engrained the behaviour pattern much more deeply. We humans have much more capability of abstraction, and therefore of anticipation, and that, in my opinion, is how he tricks us.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:15:40 (GMT)
From: timmi
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Rats and mr. Skinner
Message:
Oh, my God! You are so right about the inconsistent reward thing. I studied Skinner ages ago, but had not connected his studies with rawat and the way he operates. Good grief. He's evil!
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:16:39 (GMT)
From: magiclara(clarence)
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: re Why stay Timmi?
Message:
You asked why people stay. For me I think it was simply that I had not reevaluted the belief system I had all those years ago, even though I had nothing to do with it for years. It was seeing m recently and coming to this site that made me look at it. I realised that even though I had left I was still programmed to believe m was something special and that you must not reveal the techniques and so on. I believe myself it is hypnotism or brainwashing. It all happened to me when I was young, foolish, lonely. lost and very vunerable. I was prime material for someone coming along and telling me they would make it ok. That had stayed inside me, as someone on here pointed out to me I was a dormant premie. Now that I have looked at it when I am older and more secure in myself I see that it is all nonsense. Some people don't ever look and if you don't look you are not going to see.
Best wishes Magiclara
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