Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 04:47:33 (GMT)
From: Jun 29, 2001 To: Jul 08, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Sandy -:- To Charles the lawyer -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:36:57 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Sandy the Aesopian moralist of Forum Five -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:37:51 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Just one thing... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Sandy, I think by now you must know that I don't -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:00:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Well said, Sandy -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:16:10 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- his e-mail: mjtruth2001@yahoo.com n/t -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:48:19 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- his e-mail: mjtruth2001@yahoo.com n/t -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:54:49 (GMT)

Deborah -:- Charles Glasser's response to my email -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:12:35 (GMT)
__ CD -:- your response to your email -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:21:38 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- and your point is????????..... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:26:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Deb, CD doesn't have points NT -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:29:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- He has tic boxes instead....nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- LOL and SNORFEL. Sorry, Chris, that was funny NT -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:01:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- *** BEST OF INTERNET! *** -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:35:38 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Devil's advocate: MK has some points ... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:45:19 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Devil's advocate: MK has irrelevant points ... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:36:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for hearing me out -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:39:58 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Charles has edited his site -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:12:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Good for him. I'm sure his firm will approve NT -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:15:55 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, Fran, I disagree -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanks for jumping in Jim... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I'm too much of a free speech advocate ... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Actually Fran, the information revealed on the ... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- People who don't work for themselves -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- People who don't work for themselves -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Think of it this way -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Moral: never put anything on the net -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Devil's advocate: MK has some points ...I agree -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:05:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Devil's advocate: MK -- Pun intended? -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Deborah, I did and I do agree with you -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:10:11 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Charles Glasser's response to my email -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:40:55 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Regarding Charles Glasser's response to my email -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Yes -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Salam--check email............./nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Oh so that was you -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:36:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- Regarding your question -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Regarding your real dumb questions/statements -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Regarding you -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:28:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Regards to you -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Regarding your statements -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:06:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- And -Regarding YOUR statements -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:12:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- And -Regarding YOUR statements -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Thanks Janet....but no thanks. -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- MK -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:13:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ yes Salam -:- Charles's position -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Salam's english -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Thanks B -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Then how do you now which side you're on, boy? -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:51:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Salam's english. Brian I hope Salam never changes -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:36:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- go away -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:38:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- ***SOMEONE READ MK's POST ABOVE*** -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:22:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I don't follow you, MK -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- I hope this makes it clearer Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 09:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- ''Marolyn Kyntyre'' is a fake name! -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:12:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Pat, please remove your fingers from your rectum. -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:56:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- MUGGLES !! -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 11:39:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- MK, please adopt a more sociable tone of voice or -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 09:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Tell me more about this case of Rawat Poisoning -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Ra(wa)t Poisoning: MK = Marolyn K = ? (Yoohoo FA) -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SteveM -:- My bet's on cerise let's not get into that eh ? nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Or a borg clone - let's not get into that, yep! nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Jim **IS** a member of the bar -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- scotch and soda, jigger of gin... haha cheers!(nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- My Canadian legal advisor confirms otherwise. -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Maybe he uses a pseudonym here :) -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 01:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Silly Muggles -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 22:20:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Silly silly Johnny -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Oh! Muggles -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 08:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- MK says: ''The world's gone mad.'' -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 08:22:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- YOU'RE A LIAR -- I checked w/the Canadian Bar -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- I don't believe theyre called barristers in Canada -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:28:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You're a liar, whatever they're called -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 20:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I have no reason to believe that -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Too much tolerance for anonymice tossing off lies -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 17:36:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- anonymice tossing off lies - hear, hear, Chuck -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:47:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DLG -:- YOU go get him girl -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:59:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I take exception to this -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- No need to -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 16:57:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Why, MK is totally correcto Mundo -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 14:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Am I in the wrong place? -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Am I in the wrong place? -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- The Premies are enboldened, Deborah -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:21:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Catweasel/Polecat/Skunk's beginning to smell sweet -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Catweasel/Polecat/Skunk's beginning to smell sweet -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Oh I know who they are Nigel. Question is do they. -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:03:15 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Jim?.....nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:32:10 (GMT)

ulf -:- It is the real thing , dont you !!!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:01:18 (GMT)
__ such -:- yeah, m's dealer said Coke's the real thang! (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:10:15 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- I know what you mean -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:42:01 (GMT)
__ Mr. Williams -:- It is the real thing , dont you !!!!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:53:01 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Mt William, what's upsetting you now? -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ DLG -:- You tell them Mr Williams. Exactly us modern PWKs -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:45:13 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Mr. Williams....your messages are conflicting -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:20:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Premie lurkers this is a ******MUST READ****** -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ Ulf -:- yes -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 13:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- Just curious, but what is Loving M ? -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ wolfie -:- misunderstanding is the privelige of ignorance nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 09:05:04 (GMT)
__ bill -:- If we have a 2 sided leaflet written, then it is -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:24:16 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- I, Me, Mine.... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:06:05 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- It is the real thing , dont you !!!!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:54:05 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- Nice one Ulf. .the old refrain nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:14:07 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Somehow, ulf, you said it all NT -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 23:58:47 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- How long is a piece of string...... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 23:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ Alanis -:- Isn't it Ironic ? nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:42:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Isn't it Ironic ? Yes - understated and brilliant -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:11:21 (GMT)

jondon -:- Recent Daily Affirmation from EV site -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:55:01 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Recent Daily Affirmation from EV site -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 14:40:55 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- A few points arising from the Charles incident -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:32:32 (GMT)
__ sucha b..... -:- 1.never marry a prince;mite turnip a frog(Beaver55 -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:10:58 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- See my post below -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:38:01 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- See my reply (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:01:06 (GMT)

cq -:- RECOVERY FROM RELIGIOUS ABUSE -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:49:51 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- RECOVERY FROM RELIGIOUS ABUSE...good one! -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:52:20 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- RECOVERY ... good one! -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:23:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I experience the same thing... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:50:17 (GMT)

Timmi -:- Please explain 'watch out' from below -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:29:15 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Please have Salam explain 'watch out' again -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:20:26 (GMT)
__ salam -:- that will be extra -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:26:45 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- EV monitors -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ MW -:- EV monitors -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- MW=EV spin control doctor... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moley channeling Moldy -:- Warp. I wish you'd stop using my initials Mr W. -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:26:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Oh Muggles! -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:55:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nick -:- EV monitors -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- couldn't agree with you more, Nick -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nick -:- Disaffected Welsh premies -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:48:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And Charles the lawyer was a journalist ... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moley (AKA Madeleine) -:- Hi Nick - great post - heartfelt and so true -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really good post, Nick NT -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post ********* -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:57:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Nick - a MUST READ for newcomers -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Excellent post, ESPECIALLY for lurking premies /nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:28:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Sorry, but you're wrong -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:23:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- At the risk of being too synchronized - ditto -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:48:14 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- EV monitors -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:41:07 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Please explain 'watch out' from below -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:46:37 (GMT)
__ Timmi -:- Please explain 'watch out' from below -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:30:09 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- A premie counters the 14 objections letter -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 13:44:10 (GMT)
__ TELLMAN -:- THANK YOU IAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 03:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ Ian Dury -:- Hey TELLMAN -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ DLG -:- THANK YOU TELLMAN -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:15:13 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- My response to Karl -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:04:00 (GMT)
__ __ magiclara(clarence) -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 10:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ Henry -:- Thank you Michael -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:16:22 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Thank you, Michael -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Thanks Pat, I just did (NT) -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:18:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Good, it will help somebody I know. Thanks NT -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:16:33 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Another premie perspective on the 14 objections -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:01:05 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Carlos on Lifes Great is NOT KARL DICKENS -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:18:18 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- A premie encounters 'how to debate' for Dummies -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:37:44 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- #1:that God...who has manifested Himself as a Guru -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:04:35 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- 'I have come with full powers this time'... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Guru, greater than God 'cause Guru shows you God -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:00:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Whose 'number one' rep???? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:34:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- ***DUDE, WHERE'S MUY GURU???*** -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:18:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ***YOUR GURU???*** -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- Ichiro is 'number one' in Japan[ese]. (nt -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:57:27 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Objection number four -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- what I think -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Abi and Susan...what I think -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The abuse of Abi and Susan continues because ... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:46:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- I agree -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:22:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Mr K (not Charles?) Dickens makes one thing clear: -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:40:15 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- A premie counters the 14 objections letter -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:38:53 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- premies:'totally ignorant' about m. for 30 yrs (nt -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- The bicyclist + the Master,20th cent. satsang tale -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:29:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Great satire Sandy and 3 on the trot .... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:10:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Best to go thru it and keep on truckin' (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Tell us another parable Uncle Sandy.... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Once upon a time... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:41:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Once upon a time... -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- OJ, Deborah...The Master and the Ex-premies -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:51:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- the parable of the Houseboy -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- the parable of the Houseboy -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:13:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- The Pedophile + the Master,20th cent. satsang tale -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- postscript -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- postscript -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- postscript -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:49:12 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Regarding number #1..yeah, that's the ticket -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:29:26 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- re tickets-#12,front row seat for 5000,anyone? -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:14:56 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:36:57 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Charles the lawyer
Message:
Dear Sir:

I just read up on some of the interactions between you and some folks here on this forum. I have some questions for you, if you would be so kind as to answer.

Would you be as 'I don't care' if one of your children had a really good business idea and had it ripped off by one of Maharaji's people and subsequently made millions on it?

Would you be as 'I don't care' if one of your children had been molested by Jagdeo, poisoned at DECA, propositioned by Maharaji, or struck and killed by Maharaji himself while your kid was riding on his bicycle?

Would money appease your grief and your sense of justice if your son or daughter were laying dead in a ditch tangled in a twisted bike that you might have bought him or her for a birthday present, or perhaps they earned the money to buy it themselves, and you had to identify him or her at the scene or the morgue?

Furthermore, if you were in one of the cars in the entourage, would you let the Chinese fire drill go down witout a word if it was your child? Are you that 'right-or-wrong' devoted to Maharaji? Would you still think that his personal life is of no concern to you and wonder why others are prying into it?

Could you write any or all this off if it happened to you and yours as easily as you are able to do because it happened to someone else? I would appreciate a straight answer, if you remember what that is.

Sincerely,

Sanford Pass

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:37:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy the Aesopian moralist of Forum Five
Message:
I was responding to your parables in the thread below when I got the Windows blue screen of death and lost my reply. I'll try to remember what I said to you.

I said you are a moralist, the Aesop of FV, that your parables/fables were filled with righteous and moral indignation and that I was just so pleased to hear you find a voice which suited your poetic prophet crying in the wilderness persona. When you turn your anger into satire like that you come into your own. It was a treat to read your parables.

So many people here are anti-religion that you probably rub some of the cats the wrong way with your theological speculations but your moral indignation is absolutely refreshing. Unfortunately, in the eyes of some premies, to be moral means to be criticising and hating Balyouguesswhat.

I especially enjoyed:

''I don't buy the cultural differences thing about east and west being the reason it doesn't compute. Shit man, I give God Almighty more credit for being prepped on the room His number one rep is playing than to say something that would cause so much confusion and contradict the last top-billed incarnation and scriptures as well.''

I wish I had written that myself. Brilliant, scathing, indignant.

This god-in-a-bod stuff is the thing that I am most indignant about. The whitewashing and revisionism is no better than if I said to you, ''Here, drink this. It's the elixir of eternal life.'' And then when you had drained it down, I said: ''Oops, wrong bottle. I just looked at the label and it says cyanide. Sorry, I'll just swap the labels on the bottles.''

Sorry, Rev Rawat. It doesn't work like that. He gave us poison to drink and now we need an antidote. A sincere apology from him would help. That's some pretty heavy juju to lay on people who viewed him ''with the heart of a child with no cheat or deceit.'' No wonder there are so many angry and indignant and outraged voices here.

Any premie trying to do damage control for Rev Rawat now (either on a website like Glasser or here when they post their spin control whitewashing) can expect a lot of indignant opposition.

Even if all of Rawat's documented character flaws, greed, mismanagement and lack of ethics were explained away tomorrow, he cannot simply brush the god-in-a-bod BS under the table.

Sorry to those who wish to mollify premies. Yes, let's treat those who have not seen Dettmers' or Donner's contributions with kid gloves but anybody who attacks these two men deserves no mercy.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:51:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Just one thing...
Message:
I am not into religion, but I did not throw out the teachings of the ones who came, saw, spoke, did and left, only to have their images and names be used as a logo design for the business of religion which followed. The basic teachings and the teachers themselves are what I am into, not the subsequent franchise operations, most of which are operating without a real license.

I do believe that many trusting souls have been benefitted via religions, however warped the institutions may be, attributed to the fact that when people do have faith and their religion is all they know and are aware of, God's love and grace shines through even the most corrupt and encrusted dogma.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:00:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, I think by now you must know that I don't
Message:
disagree with you on the most basic and fundamental level. I just never tried to explain my cosmology on FV. Thank god because it has changed a lot in the 6 months I have been here.

Like you, I take the best from the wise men of the past and regard it as my heritage of civilization. And the more I look at my heritage the more I realize that the west still has a lot more to offer than I used to think.

When you use words like spirit I use the word brain. The everyday mind is such a small part of the brain but my yoga practice has shown me that the rest of my brain is accessible to me. What others may call their higher power I call my higher brain.

The only difference is the words. I know that you and I cherish life and value truth above all else.

And I loved your bit about franchises. Keep up that scathing satire of yours and I will keep reading your posts with glee.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:16:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Well said, Sandy
Message:
I'll have to start reading more of your posts! :--)

Loved the franchise operations, most of which are operating without a real license. Good one!

bests, f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:48:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: his e-mail: mjtruth2001@yahoo.com n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:54:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: his e-mail: mjtruth2001@yahoo.com n/t
Message:
Thank you Francesca. I will e-mail a copy of my post as soon as I am done with this little thank-you note to you, just to make sure he sees it if he is not around here at the moment.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:12:35 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Charles Glasser's response to my email
Message:
My email to Charles yesterday:

This is Deborah...you know the one who you have termed 'crazy' from EPO. Well, you have 24 hrs. to remove my postings.

You apparently misrepresneted yourself on your webpage and now I see that you have misrepresented me. You don't me to get mad at you, do you? 24 hrs., Comprendez!
*****************************************************************

And again today:

So, Glasser, did you remove the postings. You realize that you are totally out of control with your cult involvement and you can quite accurately be accused of defamation. Do you think your 'prestigious' law firm 'Willkie,Farr & Gallagher' will stand behind your assertions? Do they know 'the truth' that you so fiercely want to defend.

You will also have to have more proof of me being crazy than the FUCK YOU MAHARAJI-you dickless piece of shit! postings because I have good reason to want to respond that way...those comments also came out of a response from an attack of flaming premies who got off satsang early and lambasted the FV. So I wanted to shock them and let the EV's know there was genuine anger there.

Email me as soon as the job is done! I'll be expecting an apology.
*****************************************************************
Now here's what the wimp has to say to me:

Thank you for your lovely note. Although I strongly disagree with your legal analysis, that of course, is a matter between you and your attorney. I politely suggest that you and (s)he also review the click-wrap agreement you agreed to which appears on the ex-premie page vis-a-vis the public domain nature of postings made there.

I will offer you an apology insofar as I meant to hurt
no individual's feelings, although that is a moral,
not legal imperative. I have been in touch with the
folks running the EPO pages, and told them that I will
consider toning down or editing my page, but I must
tell you that threats like yours (sent to my work
e-mail no less) do not further this goal.

In that light, please cease and desist from sending
mail to the Willkie address. I suggest that you refer
to the computer-use policies of the University of
Victoria, as well as the appropriate laws of your
jurisdiction regarding cyber-stalking and unwanted
electronic transmission. The RCMP do take these
seriously, as I'm sure you agree, we all should.

Hoping you get over your anger and find peace, Charles
*****************************************************************
My new response to Charles Glasser: mjtruth2001@yahoo.com

I will be contacting the RCMP tomorrow. Since when is asking you to remove postings from a cult-informing debunking web-page cyber-stalking?

I cannot desist from emailing you UNTIL you request. Idiot!

Look at his egotistic email address MJTruth....yeesssh

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:21:38 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: your response to your email
Message:
Can you see your own reflection?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:26:58 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: and your point is????????.....
Message:
if you want to be profound. Be profound.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:29:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sorry, Deb, CD doesn't have points NT
Message:
gggggg
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:53:23 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He has tic boxes instead....nt
Message:
scrach scrach
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:01:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: LOL and SNORFEL. Sorry, Chris, that was funny NT
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:35:38 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: *** BEST OF INTERNET! ***
Message:
Well, quite funny at least.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:45:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Devil's advocate: MK has some points ...
Message:
... albeit dripping with cynicism masked by phony sincerity.

If you make an issue about what computer Charles G used to make his website or register his site, I assume, reading through the lines here, that Charles G is making an issue about the computer you are contacting him from. Charles G didn't start this computer-use issue, you did.

I'm with you though, that his accusation of cyberstalking is WAY over the top. He purposely did something to get you angry (that horrible website), and he can expect a response. A couple of e-mails is not cyberstalking. But if you continue to threaten him, he will continue to fight back. Not only he's a lawyer, but his website has fencing sites in his 'links' portion. Need I say more?

The problem is, as I see it, and I hope I don't offend you: even if he started this with you, you're giving him the response that he expects and perhaps wants. Brian and the FA made it clear that Charles G thinks he's being harassed. I think Charles G is exaggerating and using that to manipulate the situation, but he's angry or at the least retaliating against being outed by the former assistant FA, or he wouldn't have put up that deliberately misleading site.

I think the issue MK pointed out was a valid one -- many people use work computers on breaks or after work as a perk of their employment. Lawyers and businesspeople at certain levels practically live out of their offices. It's well-paid slave labor, and no one begrudges them the use of a computer unless they are doing something awful. And if you attack someone's livelihood, i.e. their relationship with their employer, which is their bread-and-butter, you can expect the anger to continue.

He is not going to come off it and tone down his site or get reasonable if expremies continue to harass and threaten him. I know he set out the 'bait.' But I think you're taking the bait by lashing out at him and being aggressive. And he will probably post it all on his site if you're not careful.

My 2 cents, and I hope you don't start in on me,

bests, f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:36:41 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Devil's advocate: MK has irrelevant points ...
Message:
I disqualified MK's points because of her intent not content. The a priori of M being holier than thou and Charles Glasser having a valid assertion of me, my character and the truth of this whole Cult matters is false, therefore, her comments are moot.

Now as for the University computer...I am allowed to use this computer to consult a law firm and request that his offensive comments be removed. Is he allowed to be using the corporate computers for his personal cult-infected debunking and character assassinations? You see, that's the question?
Read Jim's comment to MK. I spoke with Jim before I posted the question.

I also phrased every syllable strategically to get the response from Glasser that I got. I pushed him to see if he'd fall over and guess what? He fell.

I am not here for a personality contest! Your $.02 are appreciated.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:39:58 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thanks for hearing me out
Message:
Yes, I lost the personality contest years ago, I think! :-)

bests, f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:12:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Charles has edited his site
Message:
He's changed exes' names to just their initials. He still slags us off though.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:15:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Good for him. I'm sure his firm will approve NT
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:06:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: No, Fran, I disagree
Message:
Glasser has put up a website for public consumption. If he's doing it from work, using firm resources like his computer, the firm should know. Deborah, on the other hand, is, first, replying to his attack on her in email, which is not for public consumption, but then reprinting her comments about Glasser here, which again is a public website. To the extent that Glasser has any complaint about anything said about him here, i.e. in Deborah's posted replies or editorial comments, I think he is entitled to contact the university. I'm sure Deborah feels that she doesn't have anything to be ashamed. My guess is that she doesn't give a shit if he does 'report' her. After all, for what? Bottom line, though, is that I think it's fair game for Glasser's firm to know about the kind of 'work product' that's eminating from their offices.

Is the end result that cult apologists like Glasser will likely be too embarrassed to host such sites at work? Sure hope so.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:52:03 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for jumping in Jim...
Message:
Really glad that you can be the voice of reason, here.

It's amazing how transparent Glasser's foul cry is to you and me and how opaque it is for others.

Is Glasser crying because he's afraid this will come to light? Yes, of course he is. Does he want to pull A FAST ONE and convince our party that I'm an unfair candidate? Yes again.

Do I give a shit? NO. Am I here for a popularity contest or to protect my own interests? Guess!

Thanks Jim, I enjoyed the meme essay.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:42:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm too much of a free speech advocate ...
Message:
... and a 'live and let live' type, as you put it the other day, to go for your approach. I am truly sorry the FA outed Charles G, because I think that many of the people who are having at him would not have been able to sleuth his personal employment information and would have merely had the e-mail and info from the 'whois' search.

I don't condone this type of harassment, but we're not going to agree on this one.

But he is a big boy and can hopefully take care of himself.

--f

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:17:57 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Actually Fran, the information revealed on the ...
Message:
... ''Whois'' search gave the address of the lawfirm Charles Glasser works for. If you put that address into a search engine, the firm's website comes up. It has an alphabetical listing for their attorneys. Look for one with the initials ''Cee Gee'', and you find Charles Glasser.

The ELK website also has an alphabetical listing of posters, where one can find the name Charles Glasser, of New York. It all adds up pretty easily. That's why I feel too much fuss has been made of the revelation of his identity. He left way too many clues, and his identity would have been revealed anyway with out the mistep of the FA using the IP number to do a search.

I feel strongly that those who wish to remain anonyomous and attack anyone who posts here, does so at their own risk. It's their responsibility to hide their identity, not ours.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:10:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: People who don't work for themselves
Message:
I'm with you totally on the info. If anyone else but an FA had posted it, it would have been too bad. Like Deborah said, all Charles had to do was put a contact e-mail address on that horrible website and he could have avoided some of the trouble. But I think the FAs, by being FAs have to stay more neutral on this stuff, although I'll bet it is not easy when wasting too much precious time erasing troll droppings.

My issue is with the *use* of the information, i.e. threatening to go to someone's employer. Jim and you and Pat are all self-employed. To threaten to get someone in trouble at work in order to shut them up just goes against my grain. Although Charles may be safe, some large corporations (and possibly law firms) have some bizarre computer-use policies.

love, f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:49:33 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: People who don't work for themselves
Message:
I'm not self-employed.

If some premie wants to make a hate-site and defame me on that site, why on earth should EPO want to conceal that person's identity from me? Why should you worry that he's 'safe' doing that? What about my future employment prospects, please?

Why is it an issue for ANYONE here to want to work with EPO to defend themselves against 'anonymous' hate sites and hate attacks?

No way does that help this place to have a nice vibe and safe feel to it.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:56:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Think of it this way
Message:
I'm a successful lawyer from the best school working for the best and biggest law firm. On the other hand, you're a loser. You might be crazy, addicted to drugs or burning in the bitterness of unfilfilled personal ambitions but, however you cut it, you're a loser. (By the way, my great wonderful law firm doesn't need to know I've put up this web site at work, do they? That would be really embarrassing, you know!)

Fuck him!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:16:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Moral: never put anything on the net
Message:
from your place of work which may implicate your boss or that you don't want the world to know about or that may embarass you later. Also never put in writing what cannot stand up to the scrutiny of the court of public opinion.

Are you listening, Glen Whitewash Whittaker?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:05:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Devil's advocate: MK has some points ...I agree
Message:
with everything you said especially: ''MK has some points albeit dripping with cynicism masked by phony sincerity.''

Pure spin. Oh what a web the EV PR spiders weave....

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:54:46 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Devil's advocate: MK -- Pun intended?
Message:
Hi Pat. Please read my initial response to Francesca reg. this post.
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:10:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Deborah, I did and I do agree with you
Message:
Fran was being sensible and I agreed with her but sometimes I feel just like you and want to say;''Fuck sensibleness. Fuck Bighead and his BS and fuck premie apologists.''

I really prefer that to Ms Marolyn's namby-pambyness. See the cultists have to bend over backwards to appear to be nice normal people because they are so NOT normal and often so very nasty underneath the veneer of fake politeness. Also they really have no sense of humor. Creepy!

I'm just so glad you arrived here even when I have to read your dry, sensible stuff

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:40:55 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Charles Glasser's response to my email
Message:
Having your post in a public domain does not imply that Mr. charles can call you names publically. Am not sure if he mentiones your name first then links.

But all I can say that Mr. Charles was asked few things and he still has not obliged. I heared that it-IS-so has something to put on their site, but they are sitting it until the weekend to see if Mr. Charless is planning to remove the reference to 'Sofi's' journey.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:06:02 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Regarding Charles Glasser's response to my email
Message:
Does anyone know how to find out if Charles has been conducting this site from his Work website?

Mr. Charles Glasser has an implied threat when he says:

I suggest that you refer to the computer-use policies of the University of Victoria, as well as the appropriate laws of your jurisdiction regarding cyber-stalking and unwanted electronic transmission. The RCMP do take these seriously, as I'm sure you agree, we all should.

Since when is requesting that a person who has conducted a defamatory statement about someone that they don't know cyber-stalking? The University's policy does not prevent a person from submitting emails to people who are truly doing the harrassing. And as for the RCMP--well I'll find out when I speak to them and show them Charles email.

You see it's not a matter of whether I have a legal case, it's a matter that Charles doesn't want anyone but premies to know about this debunking game---he certainly doesn't want to hold it up to legal scrutiny or law enforcement.

Glasser showed his cards way too early in this game. I don't think EV will like this, I have a hunch Glasser is the ginnypig.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:57:38 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Deborah
Subject: Yes
Message:
Debbie, e-mail me.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:00:32 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hi Salam--check email............./nt
Message:
Maharaji is a shit, doo dah, doo dah, Maharaji is a shit, ahh dee doo dah daaayyyy! Oh sorry, I didn't know anyone was there.
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:36:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Oh so that was you
Message:
sheesh, at least write your name.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:30:16 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Regarding your question
Message:
'Does anyone know how to find out if Charles has been conducting this site from his Work website?'

What the hell's it got to do with you? Thousands of office workers stay behind after hours and conduct private business from their workstations, with full knowledge of their 'superiors'.

Your trouble making ways have already cost you a bundle. I'd recommend you cease and desist with a modicum of dignity left. Otherwise you are comprehensively proving Mr Glasser's assertions to be correct.

MK

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:55:23 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Regarding your real dumb questions/statements
Message:
Idiot asked:

What the hell's it got to do with you? Thousands of office workers stay behind after hours and conduct private business from their workstations, with full knowledge of their 'superiors'.

Figure that one out! I'm tried of spoon feeding you fuckin cult-fucked-up morons.

Your trouble making ways have already cost you a bundle.

What has it cost me?

I'd recommend you cease and desist with a modicum of dignity left.

You deal with your dignity and I'll deal with mine. Do you really think I believe you care. Nope. You sound threatened. And by the way I have all the dignity I need and I acquire more every day...don't worry about a dearth of dignity on my part.

Otherwise you are comprehensively proving Mr Glasser's assertions to be correct.
And what assertions would those be? By the way Sherlock, assertions is the operative word. And he could only be correct if I and everyone else on this forum is wrong, and we all KNOW that's not true. Except for scaredy cats like you. Again, why are you so threatened?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:28:20 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Regarding you
Message:
>Except for scaredy cats like you. Again, why are you so threatened?

You almost sound like a plant to discredit ex-premies

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:02:22 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Regards to you
Message:
No. I'm just shaking the tree of forbidden fruit.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:06:25 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Regarding your statements
Message:
Deborah,
I'm gaining the impression that English may be your third or fourth language. Either that or you ran away in first grade.
But obviously you feel that my English is no better! Fair enough.
I'll try to explain what I meant...

'Thousands of office workers stay behind after hours and conduct private business from their workstations, with full knowledge of their 'superiors'.

Many people stay behind after work has finished, and with the blessing of their boss, stay on and do private work using the (often superior) hardware there.

A) That's fine with the world.
B) It's nothing to do with you.

I very much doubt he does by the way. In any event, judging from his email he sounds like a formidable person to take on. My guess is that you'll come across more pwk like this who are somewhat different in their approach to you than us motley lot here.

What has it cost you?

I would suggest that your frequent use of bad English and the ever present aggressive jabs ie: 'I'm tried of spoon feeding you fuckin cult-fucked-up morons' costs a whole bunch of credibilty and will make it harder for you to be heard if one day you decide to take yourself a little more seriously.

There again, if it's a touch of fame you're after then keep right on going and I'm sure you'll find your words of wisdom appearing on many more websites.

I've only glimpsed at Mr Glasser's site but I believe he was asserting that you may be a few bolts short of a bridge. Obviously you're not because you can revert to quite intelligent dialogue, but some of your posts do tend to give currency to that assumption.

best,
MK

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:12:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: And -Regarding YOUR statements
Message:
I happen to LIKE Deb's wide open expressions in english! It's wonderfully freeing and liberating to witness another sister let fly with what she really feels, like that.

I am sick of all these years of tippy toeing around, mincing and fawning and squeezing ourselves into corporatespeak, or premiespeak, or politically correctspeak, trying ever so carefully to follow the acceptable mold in order to be approved.
Frankly, It's suffocating. The first amendment is the first for a reason.
I think Deb is using her english quite refreshingly and effectively, as far as I can see . Is your horror with her verbal style being evoked because she 'isn't being ladylike'? Do you suffer from THAT obsolete dinosaur of a social holdover? Are you a Practicioner of Sexist pigeonholing, and unable to say so?

I'm also curious as to why Deb's issue with Charles Glasser is any of YOUR affair. Odd, isn't it? Have You got some bets placed, on the outcome?

If you were on Glasser's side, you'd shut your mouth and let her dig her own grave, so you could collect on Glasser winning. On the other hand, giving Deb these supposed 'tips' and 'warnings' would seem to be evidence of a kind of mangled caring for her welfare, which would seem to point to a bet wanting Deb to win. But the caring is all tangled in with this superior posture you want to maintain, which truly cripples your effort to make known your concern.

Do you need some help, sorting out your confusion? iS YOUR POSTING A VEILED CRY FOR HELP?

I can tell you with personal knowledge--it is all right to break the taboo on talking, and shout it out loud. the sky will not fall. you will not go to hell. the CIA will not drag you away in the dead of night.

Dare to go bare. Nothing will happen. Except that you will reclaim your individuality and vitality and clarity.

Deb's done it. And it hasn't hurt her one bit.

flout fear. it's imaginary.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:10:17 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: And -Regarding YOUR statements
Message:
Ahh Janet, nice to meet you! Thanks for your support. Imagine telling me that I'm on a stripped thread of dignity. Ironic isn't it?

You see, to me, this is not a PC seminar. It's a cult-be-gone forum and that's what I'm gonna use it for? If I make friends, great...if I lose them, great! My goal is single focused.

M & EV are playing hardball. Everyone should be greatful that I'm willing to play. I've played hardball before, and won. I'll play again for the sport of it.

These cultists are silly little brats, if they don't like it, they should take their BigHead ball and go home. Have mommy kiss the booboo.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:04:12 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks Janet....but no thanks.
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:13:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: MK
Message:
what is to you MK?

Can you describe to me, to all the posters, lurkers and everyone out there how this asserts Charles position:

Sadly, many of these folks are clearly troubled people, including drug abusers and former mental patients looking for someone or something remote, abstract and all-powerful to blame for their problems. I just don't think life works that way. Of course, this doesn’t make them bad people, but I wouldn't suggest taking too much of their advice, either.

Coming from such a peace loving person that doesn't know what hate is because he has the Perfect Knowledge.

Wouldn't you say that charles is stepping over the mark. Not taking the forum into account, where on ex-premie.org website I can read words like that?

Would you say that charles thinks that anyone who doesn't think of Maharaji as the onlt reason for anything to happen is a bongo. don't all premies think so, of course you can be an exception..

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:10:37 (GMT)
From: yes Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Charles's position
Message:
what is to you MK?

:: The same as it is to you Salam.

Can you describe to me, to all the posters, lurkers and everyone out there how this asserts Charles position?
'Sadly, many of these folks are clearly troubled people, including drug abusers and former mental patients looking for someone or something remote, abstract and all-powerful to blame for their problems. I just don't think life works that way. Of course, this doesn’t make them bad people, but I wouldn't suggest taking too much of their advice, either.'

:: In that paragraph he is speaking the truth, that's why it is an assertive position. I have seen people on this site admit to all of the above conditions at some time or another over the years. You're the great archive man, go and see for yourself.

Coming from such a peace loving person that doesn't know what hate is because he has the Perfect Knowledge.

:: How on earth do you arrive at that conclusion?

Wouldn't you say that charles is stepping over the mark. Not taking the forum into account, where on ex-premie.org website I can read words like that?

:: Sorry that went over my head.

Would you say that charles thinks that anyone who doesn't think of Maharaji as the onlt reason for anything to happen is a bongo. don't all premies think so, of course you can be an exception..

:: No not at all. I would imagine very few pwk think like that these days. It's becoming a bit of a cliche now but...
Some of my best friends are exes, or are not interested in M and K and I don't doubt that Charles also has a wide social calender given the profession he's in.

stay well,
MK

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:33:56 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: yes Salam
Subject: Salam's english
Message:
Wouldn't you say that charles is stepping over the mark. Not taking the forum into account, where on ex-premie.org website I can read words like that?

:: Sorry that went over my head.

MK, I think that the underlined words above would translate better as, 'Aside from forum content, where on [the] ex-premie.org website can I read words like that [about premies]?'

I take his point to be that Charles' site stereotypes ex's, but EPO doesn't stereotype premies.

I'm not offering an opinion here on that point, but merely trying to translate it.

I think I may be learning to speak Salamese. Maybe PatC and I can collaborate on a dictionary. Or perhaps on The Salamese Cookbook... :)

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:27:47 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks B
Message:
Of course he's wrong as usual. Neither side has stereotyped the other.
M
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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:51:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Then how do you now which side you're on, boy?
Message:
to paraphrase an old song ... :))))

The Neither of the Above

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:36:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Salam's english. Brian I hope Salam never changes
Message:
His English is always good for a chuckle. I've begged him never to use Spellcheck.
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:38:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: go away
Message:
boooo
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:22:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: yes Salam
Subject: ***SOMEONE READ MK's POST ABOVE***
Message:
This is were I got it from

Compare that to what Maharaji offers: every sincere person is offerred a message of peace, one that can be found inside each and every one of us, free of charge.

you know something, am really not in the mood to reply to what you said

In that paragraph he is speaking the truth, that's why it is an assertive position

Becuase I know am gonna blow up and I don't want to do that right now. All I can say is that you are so bloody ignorant you can't find the keyhole in the door.

I will leave the rst some other time when am feeling better, meantime I am sure someone will reply to you,

have a nice day.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:46:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: I don't follow you, MK
Message:
Check your hem, girl, your cult-thinking's showing.

Deborah was truly maligned on Glasser's site. She has every right to contact him and, if he's relying on firm resources to mount his site, in any way, to contact his employer. You're absolutely right that thousands of people conduct private business from their workstations after hours. And maybe Glasser is one of them. No harm asking, is there?

See, that's something I'm not quite clear on. Perhaps you can help. To what extent is Glasser using his firm's resources to manage his website. If there's no tie, I agree, as does Deborah, I believe, that it would be unethical to contact their office about something that's really none of their business. But if that's not the case, fry him. Fair is fair is fair.

Finally, your comment about Deborah conserving a 'modicum of dignity' is specious. Glasser has maligned her as irrational at best and maybe crazy. Unlike you, she has the guts to post under her own name. you don't have to worry about things like 'dignity' and such because you're just some anonymouse. But Deb's got every right to fight back. She has a real name; you don't.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 09:57:27 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I hope this makes it clearer Jim
Message:
Jim responded:
Check your hem, girl, your cult-thinking's showing.
Deborah was truly maligned on Glasser's site. She has every right to contact him and, if he's relying on firm resources to mount his site, in any way, to contact his employer. You're absolutely right that thousands of people conduct private business from their workstations after hours. And maybe Glasser is one of them.
No harm asking, is there?

:: That's not the point Jim. Deal with what Mr Glasser is saying not where he's saying it from. The road you and Deb are on here is for juvenile delinquents only.

See, that's something I'm not quite clear on. Perhaps you can help. To what extent is Glasser using his firm's resources to manage his website. If there's no tie, I agree, as does Deborah, I believe, that it would be unethical to contact their office about something that's really none of their business. But if that's not the case, fry him. Fair is fair is fair.

:: Ok, go for your life. Then when he sets up somewhere else perhaps you'll deal with what he's actually saying.

Finally, your comment about Deborah conserving a 'modicum of dignity' is specious. Glasser has maligned her as irrational at best and maybe crazy. Unlike you, she has the guts to post under her own name. you don't have to worry about things like 'dignity' and such because you're just some anonymouse. But Deb's got every right to fight back. She has a real name; you don't.

:: Most people here are hopefully concerned with their 'dignity and such' no matter what handle they use. As long as the Forum administrators and web hosts feel that the rules of their site are being respected, all is well. Like anyone else, MK will be ejected if I cross the line and the line for us cult morons here on FV is a good deal thinner than yours!
If it will help you to sleep easier, I use a handle here because I have a fairly high profile on several other websites and don't wish to confuse my friends and business associates (I edit websites) with my multiple personality disorder. I would humbly add that if some of your clients saw the miriad of web postings you make every week, they may well be tempted to seek alternative counsel. If J Heller ever wishes to aspire to become a member of the bar, for example, then it would be wholly inappropriate for Barrister Jimbo to be making salacious comments to people all over public domain webpages in his own name.

respectfully,
MK

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:12:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: ''Marolyn Kyntyre'' is a fake name!
Message:
MK said: ''I use a handle here because I have a fairly high profile on several other websites and don't wish to confuse my friends and business associates (I edit websites) with my multiple personality disorder.''

Firstly that snide dig at MPD will land you in trouble with anyone who takes that condition seriously.

Secondly I guess I must be pretty naive. You came here and pretended to be a real person. I would not have given you the time of day of I had know that were just another anonymous cult apologist.

I suppose you are also from Australia whence most of EV spin-control spiders seem to originate nowadays.

If you are here to drop some spin-control in for premie lurkers then expect to be shredded, darling. If you are a sincere questioner I think you would be better off at Lifes Great until you have rid yourself of your MPD (Maharajism Personality Disorder.)

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:56:35 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, please remove your fingers from your rectum.
Message:
And I hope you thoroughly wash off that yuckky brown stuff before setting the tables tonite.

X
MK

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 11:39:34 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: MUGGLES !!
Message:
Oh dear, Muggles THAT secret friend in your head wouldn't like that little outburst now, would He?

You've had THAT secret little friend in your head a long time, haven't you sweetie? A lot of us have been where you are and can help you retrieve your awareness from its servitude to Rawat's business.

Who are you anyway Muggles? Don't be such a tease darling, shout it from the roof tops, that's the proper spirit.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 09:00:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: MK, please adopt a more sociable tone of voice or
Message:
you will regret it. I absolutely detest anonymice. And you are asking for trouble.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:21:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Tell me more about this case of Rawat Poisoning
Message:
I can't get this straight. 'Marolyn Kyntire' is a fake name. Is MK supposed to be short for 'Marolyn Kyntire,' or are these two different anonymous people?

The wierdest thing is that Kyntire's voice kept changing, but I thought maybe she was loosening up, or actually taking that dope she kept talking about. I figured she was making up the dope stuff, because it sounded wayyy too strange. She started out as all uptight about Deborah and Sylvia. Then she chilled and started talking about getting all bent out of shape on some substance or other. Then she'd be reasonable, and even say nice things about people, although she also started saying nice things about Rawat. Then this MK started bossing everyone around and saying they used to know me 25 years ago. Premies. Sheesh.

But MK started sounding more like a man. That bossy tone that comes from testosterone. (Sorry guys.) A cross-dressing, stoned out, shapeshifting ... wait a minute! It's nagual rain or that don brujo guy he's always talking about! Where's that spinning silver disc? Ground control to Major Tom!

C'mon, Maharaji -- you're not doing a good job showing these people who they truly are. You PROMISED.

Marolyn, don't worry. It's just a dose of Rawat poisoning. Take two of those brownies you claim to be making and call Maharaji in the morning. On the internal phone. Yikes.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:42:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Ra(wa)t Poisoning: MK = Marolyn K = ? (Yoohoo FA)
Message:
another crossdressing EV spin-control spider like Cerise, Mr Williams aka MW and a host of others. (They should stick to one fake name, FA).

Naggie is another phenomenon, i.e. Lone Ranger pewk sniper or he could be an ex pretending to be a crazy premie in order to discredit premies. Good job Naggie.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:17:45 (GMT)
From: SteveM
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: My bet's on cerise let's not get into that eh ? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:05:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: SteveM
Subject: Or a borg clone - let's not get into that, yep! nt
Message:
h
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:37:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Jim **IS** a member of the bar
Message:
He's not aspiring to anything.

--f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:27:57 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: scotch and soda, jigger of gin... haha cheers!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:44:45 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: My Canadian legal advisor confirms otherwise.
Message:
Counsellor James Heller is NOT registered as a Barrister at Law.
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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 01:32:33 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Maybe he uses a pseudonym here :)
Message:
Seriously, in the English system (I have no idea what they use in Canada) they have barristers and solicitors - maybe other titles as well.
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 22:20:02 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Silly Muggles
Message:
Is that the secret friend in your head Muggles?

Who are you, anyway? and how long have you had THAT secret friend in your head? There's no need to be ashamed here, we don't need to know who you are. A lot of us have been where you are and can help you retrieve your awareness from its servitude to Rawat's business.

Who are you anyway?

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:12:32 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Silly silly Johnny
Message:
You say...'A lot of us have been where you are.'

Really Mr T?
I have it on realiable source that you never even received K.

What a complete buffoon you are, sprouting the favorite ex-premie slogan 'We've moved on to greener pastures' when you never even entered heaven in the first place.

The world's gone mad.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 08:26:30 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Oh! Muggles
Message:
Is that the secret friend in your head Muggles?

Who are you, anyway? and how long have you had THAT secret friend in your head? There's no need to be ashamed here, we don't need to know who you are. A lot of us have been where you are and can help you retrieve your awareness from its servitude to Rawat's business.

Who are you anyway?

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 08:22:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: MK says: ''The world's gone mad.''
Message:
I guess that must be what it feels like for premies torn as they are between the enjoyment they get from M and K (the latter of which I understand) and the obvious contradictions. It comes from not standing on your own two feet and even if you are that third foot (yes the lotus one) is actually turning out to be a handicap and is becoming embarassing to make apologies for.

And you've suddenly dropped all your phoney niceness just like your predecessor, cerise, before you. I've been having a very interesting conversation by email with a friend of mine in Oz. DW? Behave yourself here. I won't out you here as that's against the rules but I will not fail to name you in email to anyone you attack here unfairly because you are anonymous and they aren't.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:20:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: YOU'RE A LIAR -- I checked w/the Canadian Bar
Message:
As if I didn't believe Jim already, AND he's handled high profile cases and I've seen the news articles. Sheesh. But I did it to catch you in your bald-faced lie.

I believe he's a member of more than just the Canadian bar, as well. I think he also can practice in some jursidctions of the US. And I don't believe they're called barristers in Canada.

Does MK stand for 'Makes up Krap'???

--f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:28:28 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I don't believe theyre called barristers in Canada
Message:
YOU said it.

Right again F, keep up the good work!


And don't call someone a liar when you agree they've just told the truth.

Makes you look kinda foolish.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 20:12:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: You're a liar, whatever they're called
Message:
I stand corrected that the term lawyer and barrister/solicitor are interchangeable. But that was not the issue, what they were called. The issue is that you are a liar.

--f

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:33:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: I have no reason to believe that
Message:
If there is a listing of who is and who is not a member of the bar in Canada, it would be public information that would be easily accessible to anyone here to back up your statement. In fact, it's probably online.

If you don't have better proof that he said she said, I figure you're lying.

--f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 17:36:47 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Too much tolerance for anonymice tossing off lies
Message:
... easily and carefree, because they feel their anonimity protects them from any consequences. Such people feel free to say ANYTHING. It's ''Cerise'' all over again. I'm sick of it. It's disrespectful to the sincere people who really come here to talk. It wouldn't be tolerated in a real social setting, so why is it tolerated here?
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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:47:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: anonymice tossing off lies - hear, hear, Chuck
Message:
Maybe it's because the oldtimers here have simply tolerated such antisocial behavior for so long they think it's normal. Like you, I think it stinks and will be screaming bloody murder about it from now on.
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:59:50 (GMT)
From: DLG
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: YOU go get him girl
Message:
Good on you, Marolyn. Expose this creep once and for all. You know Daddy will love you for it. It's obvious that Heller has just started his cult of expremies because he is too arrogant to bow to the Master's perfection.

You go girl,

I love you in His love and through and for it and by His Grace and Mercy,

DLG (Daddy's Little Girl and proud of it)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:19:19 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: I take exception to this
Message:
MK wrote:-

MK will be ejected if I cross the line and the line for us cult morons here on FV is a good deal thinner than yours!

Where is your evidence for this? I've been getting a bit of criticism and abuse recently, but I try to cut through the colorful language and see if I really am guilty of what I'm accused of. So, why do you think I am not even handed towards premies and exes?

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 16:57:46 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: No need to
Message:
No, it was a general statement I made (in fun) that was based largely on the past. I think the admin has gotten very fair in the last few months. Well done indeed, the quality of posts has ascended accordingly. I'm not throwing any accusations around, but CW has certainly had a rougher trot (pun intended) than some of the wilder exes here who are far more abrasive and rude then he ever is.

But as Lord Jim continuously reminds us..'That's their right because this is the ex-premie forum'. Weird logic.

regards,
MK

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 14:32:24 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Why, MK is totally correcto Mundo
Message:
The reality is that P's are pawns here. Generally they are treated like playthings.Tolerated until they step over the line.
I find it quite strange - wouldn't you think they might be treated as potential X's? But no , the likes of Jim and Deborah tip endless buckets of shit over them with complete impugnity.Zero in for the kill before the ink is dry

Unless we get down and get dirty we are just cult members ! Mindless morons , trolls and fools

Welcome to the Fight Club

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:09:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Am I in the wrong place?
Message:
I thought this was the Hate Club. Waiter, check please...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:23:39 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Am I in the wrong place?
Message:
Hi gerry, isn't it amazing how the cultists think they own this place? Really. MK is freaking at my audacity to challenge a fellow cultmember?

Q? How could someone so deeply entrenched in a cult, act like she is an authority on dignity?

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:21:49 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: The Premies are enboldened, Deborah
Message:
It's quite funny to see premies 'coming out' in defense of the indefensible.

And now I guess they'll demand 'equal rights' here at the EX-Premie palace.

I've been know to let a few invectives fly in my time, am a bit calmed down as of late, and I enjoy reading your hot tamale posts!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:27:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Catweasel/Polecat/Skunk's beginning to smell sweet
Message:
At least he/she/it uses an alias that's honest and doesn't constantly lob EV PR grenades. Now the spin-control spiders like Mr Williams and Marolyn Kyntyre with their fake real-sounding names and phony chumminess - these guys are here for the wrong reason - EV DISINFORMATION.

I think CW quite enjoys the Hate Club and gets a good laugh out of us and he has never tried to convert me. He's not an undercover church-lady like the other two.

BTW FA, could we expect MW and MK to stick to ONE alias each (that's if they are actually two separate people) and could we rewrite the forum policies to state:

All EV PR saboteurs will now be called spiders. Thus MK is Spider 1 and MW is Spider 2?

Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:10:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Catweasel/Polecat/Skunk's beginning to smell sweet
Message:
Hi Pat,

MK is Marolyn Kintyre (or something similar), MW is 'Mr Williams' (having gone double-anonymous just to err on the safe side..;)

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:03:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh I know who they are Nigel. Question is do they.
Message:
How do they keep all their fake names and fake personalities straight? I guess, when you are split into a heart, a mind, the inner urug and whatever other ''aspects'' you happen to be channeling, it's easy to play games on the net without going mad. Or do you have to already be mad to bother with all that deception?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:32:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Jim?.....nt
Message:
vhjd
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:01:18 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It is the real thing , dont you !!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Hi all
the 7. 7 2001 the lord of the universe will come to
a event in Mainz , in Germany .
4000 people will be there , and they will all understand
that , once again we are doing the only thing , that a human
should do , and it is , to be here togheter with the living lord

We are blessed that we can be here with M
Very few is having this rare understanding
But we do , gosh we are blessed, among all the masters in
the whole world , we found the only true one

When we are togheter , with our master , that love
just starts to flow, he is surely the giver of this
love, only near his lotus feet is the power so strong and pure

We do nothing at all , he is doing everything
and when we go to our hotels after the blissfull
evening , we will look around at this crazy world
and feel so happy that we found that litlle tiny hole
where we could leave this state of misery. and who gave
this wonderfull gift to us , our true master

Nothing is changed , he is still in control , as he allways where
Dont come around with all your doubts
Just go inside and feel this love

Only premies feel this love
Nobody else
Nobody else

We are not wrong , because it is a feeling ,,
we feel what we feel
No matter what , goes on
we alone own the solution , to the problems in this world
we are wery humble , but we got to stand up for , what we know
and
we know , there is a true way

we just feel ....
.
we are sure that someday ,,,,,

we sense.....

soon ,, soon it will all come forward so the whole world
will see

we we we we we we we we we we i i i i i i we we we we
Us us us us us , my my my my my my , i i i i i i i

sorry , i could`t help it

Ulf

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:10:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: yeah, m's dealer said Coke's the real thang! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:42:01 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: I know what you mean
Message:
Hi Ulf

good stuff. This was what I´ve heard as a song many times in Satsang. It had an incredible effect to my way of thinking. It was common sense among premies and maybe it is still among the Oldtimers. This thinking is what made it a cult, and even worse because today they say it never was like that. It would have been to nice to be true. But now I see the Hype and can free myself from a very romantic illusion, the illusion that I've found the Perfect Master of our time and we were his blessed followers.

ciao amd thanks ....wolfie

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:53:01 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: It is the real thing , dont you !!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Ulf's post is the kind of mindless, woo-woo premie bullshit that I have always detested, and detest now. 'Premies are the only ones who have this...' How in the world do you know that? The height of arrogance and fuzzy logic. You don't know a goddamn thing besides what's in your own heart and mind. And that goes for everyone posting here. This is the main thing that inflames and disgusts me: when people start telling me what I'M feeling or thinking. That's none of your business; please mind your own.

Being a premie, to me, is loving K and loving M. Period. I am and always have been an independent agent, not a member of a community, tribe, 'family' or cult. AND I have always been what people refer to as an 'active, tied-in PWK.' We definitely exist.
Despite what people here would swear to............happy 4th to everyone.....xoxo

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:21:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mt William, what's upsetting you now?
Message:
I think you've got it back to front [not to worry, mahraji did too]. I think that post was a joke.

also, how come you are so agitated everytime you post here. If it's really pissing you off, why read this place. Isn't meditation better. you know, all that light [if you see] and music [if you hear it] and nector [if you can do it] and sooo beautiful holy name. Soooo soooooooo beautiful, under a blanket you go and be cosmic kind a person. I think it is much better for you than this place, getting your knickers in a knot everytime you show up.

Oh, have you voted yet for a new forum, I can't belive there is only three premies, man your loosing face.

Voting Poll

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:45:13 (GMT)
From: DLG
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: You tell them Mr Williams. Exactly us modern PWKs
Message:
don't talk like that anymore. Daddy wouldn't like it.

Daddy is my best friend and he has shown me how beautiful life is.

Love to you MW,

from

DLG (Daddy's Little Girl)

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:20:33 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr. Williams....your messages are conflicting
Message:
You're previous posts prove just the contrary. It sounds to me like your visit is making you loathe their imbilisic behaviour and you want us not to LUMP you with them.

Go back and read a few posts and ask yourself if you were not telling people what they know, or think, etc. Actually, take an HONEST look , not an IDEALIZED look at what YOU had to say to THEM. It might surprise you.

First and foremost the forum is hear to reveal damaging evidence against M, not telling premies what they are or are not experiencing.

Premies use the 'you can't tell me what I'm experiencing' panic response because:

1. they're not stable enough to read to read the posts yet and

2. because they've been pre-programmed by EV and Rawat how to think about what we have to say--so they (and maybe you, too) come here and low and behold! that's what you interpret.

3. Your ego is not ready to hear a foul word about the Perfect Master...it's a survival mechanism

4. You cult-mindedly believe that a bad word about Knowledge and M is a sign of our defect not his

Because you are reading the posts here, you certainly must notice how premies insecurily play a puerile and mindnumbing pesty game. No substance. They just assert non-sensical statements. Apparently, you are realizing that they're presence is embarrassingly futile. You've been around to hear us laugh, joke, intellectualize, and hook-up with mates. You realize that the feathers fly when premies antagonize and pest around like flies at a picnic.

But to give the idea that you are an 'active' pwk who doesn't buy into any of the belief systems is damaging to your credibility. You could NOT of been in any position(s) around the BigHead without acknowledging everything we're saying even if your ego so boldly refuses to acknowledge that fact. If and only if you really have been active than you would know that every current premie, except you of course,

We all had subjectively different experiences of our cult involvement as premies because of who we were, our talents, our personality, our proximity or lack of proximity to the BigHead, our physical-emotional-spiritual feeling of connection. We all had a different point-of-view of HIM but we all shared similar goals.and belief systems.

But there is one thing that unites us here! Guess what that is Mr. Williams! Most of the people on this forum I never knew as a premie and frankly, it doesn't make a difference, except in so far as it helps us all understand and move forward as whole-integrated human beings. I've had enough denial regarding the cult-haven't you? It's for YOUR own good Mr. Williams to get to the real meat and potatoes, we're doing fine without you.

You're going to have to EARN your respect here.

Cheers!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:32:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Premie lurkers this is a ******MUST READ******
Message:
God, you're so sweet and patient and kind, Deborah. I don't know how you do it.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 13:26:40 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: yes
Message:
Sure , when you tell me that you never was like this
i belive you , but most of us was like that, there is no question
about it, and infact M , really was the one , who made us think
and say such things.

Ulf


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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:14:29 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Just curious, but what is Loving M ?
Message:
Is this the emotion you feel for him as a person the gratitude and worshipful feeling? Is it reciprocated, as a personal exchange? (I.e., does he know you, 'love' you, as a person? If he does know you as a person, it raises another question about premies who 'love M' but have never met him. Later for that question.)

Or is 'loving M' instead (or also) some action you perform, something demonstrable or tangible, sending money, doing 'service' and so forth?

Also, it seems quite strange to say you are an active, tied-in pewk, yet are not a member of that community. What constitutes being 'active, tied-in'? Wouldn't that amount to de facto membership?

Main question, though, is what you mean by '...loving M. Period.'

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 09:05:04 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: misunderstanding is the privelige of ignorance nt
Message:
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 03:24:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: If we have a 2 sided leaflet written, then it is
Message:
just an issue of translation and contacting local christians to hand it out.
They will do it.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 02:06:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com
To: ulf
Subject: I, Me, Mine....
Message:
Hi ulf,

How are you? Why haven't you emailed me?

I love the song by John Lennon, I, Me Mine. (It is by Lennon isn't it?)

All through the day, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.
All through the night, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.

Goomraji comes to mind (among others) whenever I hear that tune.

You did say it all.
Email me, if you would like, ulf...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:54:05 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: It is the real thing , dont you !!!!!!!!!!
Message:
we + us = wuss
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 00:14:07 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: Nice one Ulf. .the old refrain nt
Message:
Yipee
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 23:58:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: Somehow, ulf, you said it all NT
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 23:16:09 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: How long is a piece of string......
Message:
....how soon is soon ?

When are YOU going to realise K ?:this hasbeing going on for 30 odd years & still no-one is any closer to the holy grail , you're dead right that nothing has changed & that HE is still in control , in control of a diminishing congregation .

How many people got K over the past 30 yrs ? I don't know but a shit load more than 4000 & that's just the UK , where are they now ?

You can live in hope Ulf that the little fat bastard will save the world but only if you put to oneside your ability to add up.

When you say that only premies feel this love I have to disagree .What about the millions who felt love for the Fuhrer & owned the solution & stood up for it , where are they now ?

Don't give us that 'Tomorrow Belongs To Me' shit , you're lucky you weren't born in an age when false messiahs held the levers of power . Come to think of it so am I.

Enjoy your trip to Mainz , just don't blow it out of proportion.

Pat Dorrity


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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:42:37 (GMT)
From: Alanis
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Isn't it Ironic ? nt
Message:
h
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:11:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Alanis
Subject: Isn't it Ironic ? Yes - understated and brilliant
Message:
I didn't know Ulf had such a dry, indignant sense of humor.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:55:01 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Recent Daily Affirmation from EV site
Message:
The most comfortable mattress

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Versailles, 29th May 2001

This is what I have shown you. This is what I've given you. Don't underestimate the gift of Knowledge. Since I was very young, people have said, 'Oh, Maharaji, I have such a hard time practicing Knowledge.' The hungry has not been given food, but has been given a feast, and he hasn't yet taken a bite? The thirsty has not been given a glass of water, but has been given an ocean of clear, pure, sweet water, and hasn't yet taken a sip? The tired has been given the most comfortable mattress for his rest, and he hasn't yet sat down? Why? Why?

I wonder if this was actually excerpted from that date, or if this was his speech in its entirety. If I remember correctly, his gig in France was cut short, due to some extenuating circumstances at the airport involving his involvement with a cult and his use of an Indian passport.

Anyone from the other side of the fence, maybe someone who attended the event, care to comment?

Was his speech actually longer than the above paragraph. Did he stay long enough to tell you to enjoy this breath? Or did he say, 'Geez, look at the time, will ya? Where does it go when one is enjoying life as much as I am? Gotta go, see ya.'

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 14:40:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: jondon
Subject: Recent Daily Affirmation from EV site
Message:
According to Haharaji's breath religion, would a person enjoy their breath more if they chewed on a breath mint before practicing?

Nice to see you back.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:32:32 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A few points arising from the Charles incident
Message:
I've just caught up on all the threads concerning the Charles Glasser incident and have posted some thoughts in those threads. I think it's worth repeating them in a new thread, to increase the likelihood of everyone reading them.

Firstly, neither Brian nor Katie administor this forum, I do. During the whole incident, neither Brian nor Katie edited or deleted a single post. Nor have they tried to put pressure on me regarding how the forum is run. All they have done, like many others, is post their opinions. For what it's worth, the original post outing Charles was deleted by the same FA that wrote it. I allowed that FA to continue to have full FA access for another two days while we tried to rescue the situation.

So, if you have any complaints about the way this forum is run, or even want to help run it, the FA email link is below.

Secondly, Fransesca has expressed distrust in me as FA for exchanging confidential emails with Charles. Here is my reply to her:-

Myself, as FA here, and Brian, as webmaster, have been exchanging emails with Charles. My exchange with Charles is amicable even though he was outed in extraordinary circumstances, and he now understands that attempting future censorship on the forum by preventing use of his surname is futile.

But I cannot see why off forum communication with premies would lead you to not trust me. I don't break confidences, I don't misuse confidential information about posters' IP addresses, and I try to keep this forum a place where people can have open debate about Maharaji. I don't always get it right, but I listen, and try to learn from my mistakes.

FYI, I have had off forum email exchanges with many other posters here, both premies and exes. Do you expect me to publish details of any of those exchanges, or even publish who I've had exchanges with? If you click on the Email Admin link below and mail me, would you expect me to publish your email here?

Thirdly, the incident has sparked a debate about website and forum ownership. Here is my reply to Pat about this:-

Regarding the EPO/F5 ownership stuff. To Jim, and maybe others, it's a matter of principle. To me it's a pragmatic issue. There is no ex-premie organisation, just some people who choose to have a presence on the net. Jim made a contribution to that, and I'm grateful to him, as well to Scott, David, Jean-Michel, Brian, Katie, Roger, Sir Dave, all past and current FAs, and anyone else who helps publicise the cult.

The de facto situation now is that Brian is the EPO webmaster, although it's worth stressing that Jean-Michel currently does the bulk of the work updating the EPO site content. I think Brian does a good job, and I believe him when he says he's committed to doing it long term. I am also committed to doing my job long term as long as my personal circumstances allow it. I think the situation that we have some long term stability on EPO/F5 is excellent for allowing the site to do what it's good at.

Of course it's not democratic, and some people don't like that. But I think it goes back to there not being an organisation, so the constituency for any democratic action is unclear. However, if someone wants to form some sort of organised group, then they are free to do so.

So how about this for an idea:-

Form such a group with the aim of creating a more democratic EPO. Write a constitution so that arguments within the group can be settled amicably. Set up a new website and forum. Copy the contents of EPO onto this website - I'm sure J-M would have no problem with this, as he actually provides a facility to download all his content, but I can't say how Brian would react. Find someone to webmaster the site. Find someone to administer the forum. Advertise it on F5 - I certainly wouldn't attempt any censorship on such an ad.

and then you would have the accountable, democratic website that you want.

Sounds like a good idea to me (except I'm happy with the current setup).

I then added, in response to another post from Pat:-

Of course if I don't run the forum with the support of the majority of exes, people will either press for me to hand over to someone else, or will go elsewhere, as did happen to some extent after the Charles incident. I don't think Lifes Great has ever been so busy:-)

Therefore I do listen to criticism, and suggestions, even though I don't always act on them.

So I hope this has cleared up my position on these issues.

Forum Admin

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:10:58 (GMT)
From: sucha b.....
Email: None
To: Forum Ad + da Queen Mata
Subject: 1.never marry a prince;mite turnip a frog(Beaver55
Message:
r.e. the Charles incident: I thought Charles behaved atrociously to Diana [who would have been 40 yesterday].

well, let's don't beat a dead ho-arse here, everyone.

Yippie, it's time to reincarnate da SDS -- such a group, indeed! When in the course of human events...we hold these truths self-evident...in order to form a more perfect onion... So, where are Rennie Davis and the Beaver 55 gang when we need 'em?

sleep in heavenly peas

-- and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:38:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: See my post below
Message:
except that I said 'no grip' instead of 'no gripe.'

Maybe I have no grip?

post

--f

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 22:01:06 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: See my reply (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:49:51 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: RECOVERY FROM RELIGIOUS ABUSE
Message:
Just found the following at http://celticdreams.topcities.com/c_cults_recovery_04.html, and thought it worth sharing here:


RECOVERY FROM RELIGIOUS ABUSE

By Eric Merrill Budd

QUOTE

What happens to individuals who have been psychologically abused and morally betrayed by fundamentalist cultic religious
groups? how can they recover from the damage done? Physically leaving such a group is relatively easy, but the emotional and
psychological departure can take months or even years. This is why many people do not understand how any person can stay
within a situation of religious abuse - much the same way that people fail to see how battered women stay with their abusers.

Such dysfunctional and destructive groups often use manipulation, fear, and deception to maintain a hold on members. They
also shower their prey with unbelievable amounts of affection and approval for staying in the group and meeting their
expectations ('love-bombing'). Groups also control and distort information from the outside. Thus it becomes a sin to read any
'worldly' publications or 'spiritual pornography.' The group makes an extremely sharp distinction between right and wrong,
good and evil; everything in the group is positive (godly), everything outside is negative (satanic). Ambiguity, doubts, and
serious questions are not tolerated. The authority of the group's leadership is virtually absolute. All problems are oversimplified
and deflected either away from the group or back towards the individual
.
(this is a methodology that I have come to call conflict isolation).

It is no wonder, therefore, that the religiously abused frequently suffer from emotional and psychological problems. I believe
that it is high time that our society recognizes and deals with religious abuse as a social-psychological disorder in itself.

Generally, a person who breaks involvement with a dysfunctional group will encounter the following problems:

* Depression - the product of group-induced self-doubt and self-blame.

* Isolation and loneliness - the shock of crossing the barrier from one
social environemnt to another.

* Impairment of decision-making and other intellectual skills.

* Floating - occasional lapses into the group's imposed mindset, often
triggered by certain stimuli (music, symbols, key words or phrases, etc.).

* Difficulty in talking about group involvement - often related to strong
feelings of guilt, fear, and bitterness.

* Interpersonal difficulties - communication, expression, making new
friends, organized activities, dating, emotional and physical intimacy,
etc. Recent walk aways are frequently mistrustful and suspicious of other
people and groups.

So, how does one recover? How does a person heal the wounds of religious abuse? Hopefully, within a caring and
understanding new social setting. This can be a family, a support or therapy group, or an organized community such as a
mainstream church, religious group, or humanist society. It should also be done with patience and the consideration that
recovery will take time and effort. The following are some ideas for persons who have walked away from religious abuse and
who are on the road to reclaiming their lives.

* Work towards trusting yourself and relying on your own abilities.

* Put your experience down in writing. This will help you to evaluate,
understand, and cope with your past involvement in the abusive group.

* Get in touch with other people who have gone through similar experiences,
either one-on-one or in a support group.

* Find a hobby or pastime to reinforce a positive sense of accomplishment.

* When floating occurs, firmly remind yourself that the episode was
triggered by some stimulus. Remember also that it will pass. Identify the
trigger, learn to make a new association, and repeat the new association
until it overrides the old one. Talking it over with someone who
undersands can really help, too.

* Handle decisions, tasks, and relearning of interpersonal skills one setp
at a time. Don't rush yourself, talk and think things over, and don't be
afraid if you make mistakes - we all do!

* Be more willing to help people as you go along. This builds up
self-esteems and exercises your problem-solving skills.

* Take a breather from organized religion for about three to nine months, at
least. Deal with your questions about religion, ethics, and philosophy in
an honest and challenging manner.


Remember, you are no longer a victim but a survivor!


ENDQUOTE

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:52:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: RECOVERY FROM RELIGIOUS ABUSE...good one!
Message:
The piece about ''floating'' and triggers is substantial.

In my reading about personality cults, especially ones which teach meditation techniques, I've discovered that this floating is actually dissociation. The triggers are many in a cult, too.

Words, music, smells are some powerful triggers. M ruined many words, music and smells for me. I get triggered by the smell of certain vegetarian dishes, incense, etc. Music is the ultimate trigger for anyone going through a process of withdrawal, be it a cult or a relationship.

The words and phrases are the worst thing for me. Grace, god, residence, meditation, soul, beauty, my experience, that part inside of me, are only some of the triggers. I learned a while ago that triggers can be reframed so that I don't dissociate, or float, when confronted with them (not just ones from the cult). It's very difficult, meticulous work. One has to make a habit of catching the trigger when it happens and struggling with it to reframe it. In time, though, it can be done.

But what a pisser that it has to be done! And premies wonder why I/we, ex-premies, get angry.

Good post,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:23:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: RECOVERY ... good one!
Message:
Thanks for the feedback, Cynth

This word 'floating' has many different associations for each person that hears it. For you it implies 'dissociation' - but from what? The real world? Or from 'cult-think'?

The author of the piece calls it 'occasional lapses into the group's imposed mindset' which in itself implies a dissociation from reality, but if your reality IS the group's imposed mindset, what then?

I guess, if I was still a premie, I'd look at that word and think ... oh, yeah, floating - dig it. Feet-off-the-groundsville! Yeah, I'm just floating in all that grace/bliss/synchronicity/(insert favoured buzz-word here)'

For me, the word 'floating' conjures up associations more to do with wavering (if not 'waving') and drowning in an ideology that previously sucked me down.

You know what the hardest part about it is? About having ever been in Maharaji's trip, that is.

The hardest part for me is in those moments when I naturally reconnect with feeling my breath (as have happened ever since I can remember). It's an experience that I enjoy. But, since 'taking' (or rather - being conned into taking) knowledge, that natural connection with my breath has been polluted with the image of one Prem Pal Singh Rawat - that duplicitous little fraud - who would want me to demonstrate my gratitude (preferably measured in $$$) to him for supposedly re-connecting me with something I knew how to enjoy long before he ever appeared on this earth.

Somehow, I'll have to just enjoy my breath. Without thoughts of him entering into the experience. (It's a process that I'm still going through, even though I left DLM over a 1/4 of a century ago).

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:50:17 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I experience the same thing...
Message:
The experience of being connected to the breath is still for me connected to the Rotwat. Also the tongue thing. I find that technique makes me focus more on tasks, but it, too reminds me of the goober. I like all the techniques, but not done in any particular order. Just as I want them, I use them. I don't want to be used by m anymore. It's still an association that's difficult, though.

Dissociation happens to everyone. It's an auto-hypnotic state that occurs in common-place, day to day life. It's not limited to severe trauma. It's reading a page in a book and the mind was focused elsewhere. Or highway hypnosis. You got there but don't remember the drive.

The reason I call the ''floating'' piece dissociation is because in order for our rational minds to be relinquished or surrendered in the cult, it was imperative to dissociate. I had to dissociate from my mind in order to accept Maharajism. That was the cult game. I couldn't use my logical thinking mechanism, because it was the opposite of obeying agya. To be in my mind, was against the law in Maharajism. This encompassed adopting the whole culture of the cult without question. This is what we see with the backlash of premies now and the attempted protection of the belief system about M and K.

It may be a mere matter of semantics. It doesn't matter what it's called...it's a giving up of one's own power to another individual, Mahgoogoo, and obeying everything he and his closest associates told us to obey. That gets incorporated before receiving k, in my time during the mid-70s, and followed through with the k session and vows. I was hooked big time.

A lot of my anger is based in the associations which trigger me due to M. It pisses me off that premies come here and say ''get a life!'' That's beside the point. I have a life, and now I'm busy reconstructing the damage done by his royal High-Ass!

Back to packing,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:29:15 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: salam
Subject: Please explain 'watch out' from below
Message:
'Oh and watch out. Rawat has already heared about this.'

Please explain, Salam. Am I in danger?

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:20:26 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Please have Salam explain 'watch out' again
Message:
I think Salam needs to explain the following:
The only danger that you have is that between your ears. Rawat sucks, he a perfect nothing.

Your fear of him is nothing more than paranoia, residue from all the years of indoctrination. You choose to give him power over you.

Sounds to me like he thinks you've been a premie, doesn't it?

And by the way, don't worry about anything. EV monitors are just premies who report to M and anyways, M is in denile.

In response to your concern for your friend who is dating DAYA--the best thing you can do is ask him how he feels about M and the views of the ex-prems and keep the lines of communication open. He's in love...lovers don't want to hear objections, that's why premies don't want to hear anything about M. The people, like myself, who respond well to this forum are the ones who departed years ago but never had closure on the cult aspect.

So you may need to let this run its own course, but I would talk to him about your concerns, just keep it light and support his relationship. This way, if he gets really hurt, he'll have someone to talk to you.

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:26:45 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Timmi
Subject: that will be extra
Message:
The only danger that you have is that between your ears. Rawat sucks, he a perfect nothing.

But hey don't take my word for it, kapp the crap was zapped by maharaji and he will wager ten bucks on that.

Your fear of him is nothing more than paranoia, residue from all the years of indoctrination. You choose to give him power over you.

As for his kids, duhhh, they don't exist as far as am concerned.

If still not happy e-mail me.

[now ye'err that Charlie, put it on your site as evidence of hate and anger you dork]

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:16:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: EV monitors
Message:
No, no danger. But anything you say on here is public knowledge. Some of us have heard through the grapevine (and I won't reveal my source, but there are probably others) that Maharaji has what we call 'EV monitors' reading this Forum to see what is being talked about here and reporting back to Elan Vital.

According to other people who have posted here, when premies or other high ranking PAMs (premies around Maharaji) are spoken about on this Forum, the person spoken about may be told about the content of the posts.

If this EV monitor thing is for real, any post about Maharaji's daughter would certainly be brought to someone's attention. That being said, since the high ranking PAMs are reportedly afraid to give Maharji the terrible (due to his drunken rages or hangovers, I imagine) bad news (such as Jagdeo's abuse of premie children) that might get him upset, the fact that someone is merely dating his daughter may not get back to him. And even if it did, so what? The only thing that might happen is that M would tell his daughter to stop dating your friend's son, if Daya would even listen to M. Did you listen to your parents about such things at her age?

So nothing to fear. Just be aware that this site is being monitored by Elan Vital, and what you say may or may not be of interest to them, and may or may not get back to someone.

best wishes, Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:08:44 (GMT)
From: MW
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: EV monitors
Message:
My dear, your post is based on total and complete speculation, and it is just that----suppositions and assumptions you have made up out of whole cloth. Most of the 'information' on this site is, unfortunately for you guys, and fortunately for me,of the same caliber, certainly when it concerns M's personal life in 2001.

BTW, I'm sure I knew you 25 years ago. I was, and am, a muso, and we definitely had mutual friends.

As someone who knows the people Timmi is talking about, I can tell you w/out reservation that SHE is making this stuff up as well---her friend's a great guy, very together, has an ongoing, successful business, and is having a good time in his life.

Ya see how speculation, assumption, putting your awareness in other peoples' business, can build up to where it totally engulfs you? I hope you understand that I'm sincere, and not 'culting out,' making shit up. Have a sweet night.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:00:30 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca and All.
Subject: MW=EV spin control doctor...
Message:
... claiming to know this that and the other about things and people, always accusing people of making things up. Just trying to plant doubts in the minds of lurking premies. All this, while being totally anonymous. Some voice of authority.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:26:43 (GMT)
From: Moley channeling Moldy
Email: None
To: MW
Subject: Warp. I wish you'd stop using my initials Mr W.
Message:
You are seriously getting on my nerves.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:55:16 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: MW
Subject: Oh Muggles!
Message:
MW: Ya see how speculation, assumption, putting your awareness in other peoples' business, can build up to where it totally engulfs you?

Yes, of course we see that, we see it clearly in Rawat's business model, and the way it takes over people's lives to the point where they are both dependant, and ashamed.

Who are you, anyway? and how long have you had THAT secret friend in your head? There's no need to be ashamed here, we don't need to know who you are. Al ot of us have been where you are and can help you retrieve your awareness from Rawat's business.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 08:18:45 (GMT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: MW
Subject: EV monitors
Message:
As someone who left EV about 6 months ago, largely as a result of what I read on EPO, and as someone who had been heavily involved in DLM and EV since 1971, latterly as a UK regional contact for 6 years or so, I posted here that a few months ago that the principal EV monitor of this site had told me about 18 months ago that this activity formed part of his service. I also reported that the individual in question had told me that the best thing to do was to ignore the site, because to post messages here only 'encourages them'. Actually, he also said that it was being run by a handful of dissaffected Welsh ex-premies and that it really wasn't of any significance. I have to say that I'm not aware of any Welsh posters - but that's another story.

I haven't been posting here for a while, but have been consistently following the threads. What I've noticed is that there seems to be this concerted and focussed premie campaign to brand the people who post here as liars and full of hate. It reminds me of gutter press tactics or those of political parties - i.e. cheap and easy labels which are repeated and repeated to try and penetrate readers' consciousness so that eventually readers simply assume this is the case, whether there is any truth in it or not.

I stated, when I first started posting here, that my aim was to be able to pick up the pieces of my life and be able to say of M, DLM, EV etc 'Oh that. That was something I used to do - I've left that behind a while ago'. Now, as I write that, it just occurs to me that this correlates perfectly with the EV party line - if you like it, fine, if you don't...blah, blah, blah.

But, of course, as most of those of us who invested so much time, energy, spirit, money, resource and much much more over the years (29+ in my case) realise, the glibness of the 'just walk' statement reflects perfectly the deception of which we have been victims for so many years. How are we supposed to just walk away as if nothing happened - M's influence has permeated every single element of my life: the way I see the world, the way I think, the way I relate to people, the way I interact with my family, the friendships I make, my attitude to work, my values and so on. This is what happens when for years your first waking act would be to bow before the picture of the 'Master' and offer thanks or prayers to him for whatever, when you sing arti at 6am every day, when you sell your possessions to be able to go and see him for a couple of days, when you put your family second in all your decision making, when.... I could go on for pages , but everyone knows the picture.

Now, I am one of the lucky ones. After an initial period of feeling really both angry and stupid when I realised what was really going on with M and EV and how I had allowed myself to be duped for so very long, I do seem to be emerging pretty well out of all this and life is good.

But, and this was my reason for writing today, when I read premies (the Pias, Charles, Mr. Williams, MWs etc) consistently branding the ex-premies as liars and hateful, and when I hear them toss in the old chestnut that the people who post here are those who left 25 years ago, I start to react, because I can't cope with propaganda designed to deceive even more. And I realise that the EV monitor was absolutely right that premies posting only 'encourages them'. I have been using EPO to help get my life back together, and have found the support available here so invaluable. I've never really used the Forum to attack - it was never my intention and it's not really my nature. But I'm starting to get pissed off with the misinformation, the deceipt and the dismissive smugness.

A number of premies are feeling threatened - I don't know why (or maybe I do, actually). If they were so sure of their ground, of their Master, of their path, then they would not feel the need to justify themselves here on EPO. Personally, I wish they would stay away from here. I don't enjoy reading their contributions. I also resent the snipes to be found on the websites of the Pias and Charles of this world.

What I think they fail to realise is that many of the posters here on EPO have so far been very honourable in respecting confidences of their former premie friends / colleagues etc and not revealed a whole host of the abuses and lies perpetrated over the years in the guise of devotion and propagation. I, for one, am in danger of losing that sense of honour.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:23:19 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: couldn't agree with you more, Nick
Message:
Wow, what a refeshing post -- it's been a tail-spin for me in the last two days. But of course, I'm sure you've noticed.

I agree with every comment you made.

But , just out of curiosity: Why did the statement 'They're just a bunch of Welsh premies divert your interest. That's so funny, Welsh premies (it's hard not to bust up over that one).

I am glad you came forward to say that you are not going to stand for the prem-apologists to take over this forum.

I am trying to find some of my old prem buddies that I shared good times with in a cultlife. M was a prick to do what he did and is still doing but some of my premie friends and the memories that go with them are still cherished today. There is no way that I would want to offend them. THe premies who post here, of course, are a different breed. I won't turn away a worthy fight. My integrity depends on it.

Take care or take a stab at a premie post, it's open season!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:48:05 (GMT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Disaffected Welsh premies
Message:
Hi Deborah

Good question! When the EV monitor made the assertion to me that this site was being run by the handful of Welsh premies, his intention was clearly to present EPO as the work of just 4 or 5 ex-premies who had been out of the scene for a few years and that this site and their attacks on M were not of any significance in the grand scale of things. (nb I hadn't looked at the Forum at that time and had only read the Mishler article).

The Welsh thing is interesting - it is just another example of negative stereotyping: hills, magic mushrooms, spaced out, old hippies. We've all seen it and continue to see it here with the way that premies treat ex-premies - mock, vilify, marginalise in the hope that no-one will then treat them seriously. As I said in my last post - gutter press tactics. Or classic PR?

All the best

Nick

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:57:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: And Charles the lawyer was a journalist ...
Message:
... before going to law school. He's the Charles of thetruthaboutmaharji fame.

I think this site really gets to them, and that's all the more reason to have fun here.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:47:32 (GMT)
From: Moley (AKA Madeleine)
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nick
Subject: Hi Nick - great post - heartfelt and so true
Message:
The 'just walk away and get over it' philosophy of some premie posters is quite unfeeling. It also shows an endemic lack of understanding of what being human (as opposed to a vessel for knowledge) is all about. I'm listening to Radiohead very loud as I write this... great music IMO for purging yourself of Rawatland (and any other headfucks!).
I'm not surprised you're in danger of losing your sense of honour - there's only so much a person can take... and when we've all been so totally involved in something that had proved to be totally false ... well it's hard sometimes....

Anyway, this is mainly to say hello, and nice to see your post..
Do you fancy lunch/coffee in the next fortnight (somewhere else!)?? Email address above is best to use as I'm not here at other mail box that much anymore,
Love
Madeleine

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:17:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Really good post, Nick NT
Message:
fffff
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:57:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post *********
Message:
Thanks for taking the time. And do keep your honor. I really heard what you were saying, and your points are well taken.

And yes, the hackneyed: all this info is 25 years old and out of touch with M in 2001, and this is such a vitriolic 'hate group,' and you people really need to get on with your lives can get to you.

But as I said in a post below to Cynthia, Abi and Susan, I read up on another cult the other day in a link given to me by Stonor, the Fellowship of Friends. That guru abused young male students himself. Do you know that the followers still have the gall to stay that the people who left and complaint about the cult 'really need to get on with their lives.' Chilling. And standard cult-wash.

Hang in there and thanks again. Just remember that you're free every time you confront the hogwash-tied.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:13:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Thanks, Nick - a MUST READ for newcomers
Message:
As another newcomer I understood your words perfectly. I also thought I would pop into FV say hi and bye and thanks for all the info but...

Then I see how deeply tainted I am by 28 years of Maharajism I am and I unload some more baggage. Even if I discounted all of Dettmers' and Donner's contributions of FV, I cannot easily shake the feeling of betrayal when I read the new revised history of Rev Rawat.

Even if it was a ''mistake'' that he previously presented himself as god in a bod and is now Mr Don't Worry Be Happy, it is a mistake that MUST be apologized for. That is not a minor mistake and has left tens of thousands of westerners laboring under fears of turning into rotting vegetables.

My antidote to the years of poison fed me by Rawat is FV.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:28:06 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Nick / everyone
Subject: Excellent post, ESPECIALLY for lurking premies /nt
Message:
YOWZA
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:23:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: MW
Subject: Sorry, but you're wrong
Message:
I will not reveal my source. But the fact that EV monitors this site is well known.

And you are not being kind or friendly, old friend (or acquaintance?) when you condescendingly paint the balance of the information that is all over this forum and this site as speculation, 'made up of whole cloth.' You're basically using fancy words to call a lot of people liars, and I know many of these people to be of high integrity, and I know some of these people personally, where you, my friend, remain anonymous.

I certainly can't vouch for Timmi's information, as she's a recent poster on the site, but I don't have any reason to doubt her, either. And it is altogether possible that although you and she know the same person, that she has an entirely different view of the situation than you do, no less valid than your own.

Some of us post from quite recent experience. Some have exited in the past 6 months. Not all of us left in the 80s, and although I did, I have enough friends that are premies to see the story of 'who is Guru Maharaj Ji' change many times.

Sorry you're in denial, although you claim to be (and I hope you are) sincere. But you're sincerely misinformed. I've given you my e-mail above, but if you choose to remain anonymous, and if anything you send me would have the tone of your message above, then let's forget it and say you 'knew me when.'

I don't want to be contacted by premies who thing that the majority of people on this site are 'making shit up,' and I certainly don't want to be contacted by anyone who loves Maharaj Ji if that's the topic of discussion. I can't stand the man, and have to put up with enough of it from people I do know.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 06:48:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: At the risk of being too synchronized - ditto
Message:
If the anonymous Mr Williams has read Dettmers' and Donner's posts here and thinks they are liars then he is indeed in denial or worse - cynical. Maybe he hasn't read much of EPO archives - in which case he is being a loyal devotee. If he has then I must assume that he is here to do some calculated and cynical spin-doctoring for premie lurkers.

What a tangled web Glen Whitewash Whittaker (EV monitor) et al have spun around Rev Rawat (never a god in a bod since 1966.)

When I stopped trying to save scorpions I gave up being nice to spiders.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:41:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: EV monitors
Message:
what's the name of that fellow, something starting with W, you know the big honcho in EV that reads this site. Oh I know glen Witiker [probably I got his name wrong]. He always run to his guru telling him about what and what's not. Pitty I can't figure the names of the other eight monitors, but one of them is from south africa, now I wonder who that is. Anyway we never found out from Philis did we, she was gonna tell us but then she went foot kissing with her darling and forgot about it, sheesh, what a rip off.

Is it Daya that is being naughty, ohhhh, the little girlie. I hope she has protection other wise we might end up with all of them little guru look a like running a mook. Not good for the inhertance now is it.

I mean here this this girl from a nice rich family with a dad running a successful buizenezz. She just can't go out with a rif raf premie with holes in his pockets can she now? She really should learn from her grandma doesn't she? I mean look at her daddy, running away with a western bloondie air hostess with no orign instead of waiting for mum to find him a bride, shame on him. really spoiled it don't you recon? Oh stuff it, am going to bed.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:46:37 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Please explain 'watch out' from below
Message:
Hi Timmi:

I just read Salam's post to you. I don't know exactly what Salam was trying to convey, but I would say that you're not in any danger, so don't be afraid.

Also, the only reason I asked (below in the same thread) if this young man was from Massachusetts is that a good friend of mine's son was dating Daya, but I don't know if you were referring to him, or if she's moved onto someone else. I hope that, whoever he is, he has a support system to help him out.

Take care
Monmot

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:30:09 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Salam
Subject: Please explain 'watch out' from below
Message:
Or e-mail me if there is something I need to know.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 13:44:10 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A premie counters the 14 objections letter
Message:
Over on Life's Great, Karl takes a shot at responding to the 14 objections letter. Be forewarned - this is absolutely PATHETIC!
***************************************************************

In a tread below, Way challenged PWKs to respond to the 14 objections he and other ex-premies wrote. I guess this objections were so ridicule that no one bothered to object to them. Way and others have sent these objections to different persons and companies in order to try to ruin M.s reputation. Slander and libel are words that come to my mind when I read those objections. However M does not respond to them, I guess he regards this as actions of hyenas that are barking cowardly towards him. I also am pretty sure that Way et al know pretty well that M never sued anyone for libel, even when it has been numerous occasion when he easily could have done that and most people would have done so. I also think they know he never will sue anyone.

I am not going to waste a lot of my precious time, responding on this site, but at least I aware that what I have written is my perspective. Even if I am also biased in my perspective, I have tried to be as objective as possible in my evaluation of the 14 objections. Here they are.

1. Objection re: “The Lord of the Universe”
When Mr. Rawat came to the West in the early 1970's, he proclaimed himself to be an incarnation of God equal to Jesus Christ and Buddha, the Satguru, the Avatar, the Perfect Master of our times. He claimed that salvation depended on complete surrender to his grace. Mr. Rawat now tries to cover-up and mitigate these earlier claims. He blames others for misrepresenting him. But hundreds of direct quotes from Mr. Rawat put the blame squarely on himself

Reality: M. never claimed to be reincarnation of God. equal to Jesus Christ and Buddha, the Satguru, the Avatar, the Perfect Master of our times. In fact he expressed explicit not to be God. (Q: Are you God? A: No, I am a human being). What he did, was to claim that he could give you peace, he encouraged people to find the perfect master of their time, and he praised his Master and other perfect masters according to Indian tradition.
So in fact this objection is false and based on a lie.

2. Objection re: “Finances”
Throughout the history of DLM/Elan Vital, Mr. Rawat has continually demanded monetary 'contributions' from his followers in order to support his obscenely lavish lifestyle complete with several mansions, private jets, etc.

Reality: M. never demanded monetary contributions from his followers. He in fact, insisted on that Knowledge was given without being paid for, in spite the fact that one of his advisors (probably Dittmer’s) tried to persuade him to “sell” the Knowledge”. He in fact several times said, “I don’t want your money”.
So in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

3. Objection re: “The Ashrams”
Mr. Rawat instructed his followers to abandon all family, sexual relations, education, and career goals to devote their lives entirely to his service, by living in his ashrams
When the ashrams became a financial liability to him, he closed them, leaving many of the ashram members in debt and poorly prepared to return to society.

Reality: The ashram was an “inherited” system with Indian tradition, a place which purpose was to benefit the people who wanted to stay there. In fact many of the ashram members received in the ashram training that enabled have more discipline in their life
So they were able to maintain jobs and take an education. Some became very successfully in this “world”. When the ashrams were closed, the system were that every individual ashram was made responsible for its own financial situation, with the result that some came out of the ashrams “richer” of money, but probably only very few had a tiny debt to pay. (I never met anyone where the latter was the case).
So in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

4. Objection re: “The Jagdeo affair”
Mr. Rawat was informed by two of his close associates that his instructor Jagdeo was sexually molesting premie children Mr. Rawat did not prevent Jagdeo from continuing in his service, travelling around the world, with access to more children. Two of the victims speak out on the ex-premie website.

Reality: It is no proof and the persons involved, Dettmers, Judy Osborne and Randy Prout? actually don’t support this allegation and denies that M. was told about this incident. I think the person who made this allegation are not so sure anymore about her allegation that M was told.
So in fact this objection is also false and most likely based on a lie.

5. Objection re: “The four techniques”
Mr. Rawat teaches what he calls Knowledge, which consists of four techniques of meditation. He claims to have the sole privilege of teaching these techniques. But in fact
these are centuries old and are now taught by hundreds of gurus in India, and by several Western gurus.

Reality: M doesn’t claims to have the sole privilege of teaching these techniques. (Actually to be honest anyone can try to teach them to others – even such an attempt is made on the ex-premie site). What M. says is search for this (Knowledge) anywhere, if you don’t find it; he claims that he can give it to those who want it. From his perspective it is his gift.
So in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

6. Objection re: “The false history and lineage of DLM/Elan Vital”
Mr. Rawat claims to be the current master in a direct and unique lineage of masters. His website indicates that this lineage proceeds from the Master Dayal Ji (born 1846), to Swarupanand, to Shri Hans (Mr. Rawat's father), to Mr. Rawat himself. But this is a false claim. Swarupanand did not name Shri Hans as his successor and Swarupanand's devotees did not follow Shri Hans after Swarupanand's death. Instead, Shri Hans broke off from this organization and started his own new mission elsewhere. Swarupanand's mission was continued by several other mahatmas. Currently, several organizations claim a direct heritage to Swarupanand, including the Advait Mat, the Shree Nangli Sahib, the Radhasoami group, and the Manav Dharam.

Reality: When M. indicates this, it is probably because he was told so. (His message is that no one can in reality remember from their past lifetimes and that the only thing which exists is “here and now”. But if his Knowledge works, who cares?

7. Objection re: “X-rating”
Mr. Rawat has always enjoyed a lifestyle exactly opposite of what he teaches. The followers who are invited into his inner circle are 'x-rated', meaning that they are privileged with the information of Mr. Rawat's true materialistic and reckless lifestyle, promising to never divulge the information to the rank and file members of the Elan Vital cult. Former x-rated devotees have posted their experiences on the ex-premie website.

Reality: M. has never teached a “lifestyle”, even if the traditional ashram life had regulations about what to eat, drink and so on. But as he said, his lifestyle is none of our business, just as much as Jims, Ways et al, is none of my business.
So in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

8. Objection re: “Several sexual affairs with premie women”
Mr. Rawat is known to have had several sexual affairs with his own female followers from 1984 to the present. First-hand accounts of these affairs are available at the ex-premie website.

Reality: There are no first hand accounts of these affairs, (I suppose first hand accounts, must include the persons having a sexual relationship or someone actually witnessing such an act). Secondly Dettmers lack credibility for 2 reasons, he is a bitter person, who obviously is motivated to revenge M., and he also has no idea of what was going on. A friend of mine was during a program having an important meeting with one of the top executives in EV and in order to keep the meeting discrete, my friend was invited to have dinner in the hotel room of the executive.
So in fact this objection is also false and based on”hearsay”.

9. Objection re: “Hit and run”
Mr. Rawat accidentally killed a man in an automobile accident. He instructed one of his followers to take the blame for the accident, and he himself fled the scene. A first-hand, eyewitness account of this accident is available at the ex-premie website.

Reality: This might be possible, even if the witness Dettmers did not drive in the car. I suppose M was responsible in this situation for 2 reasons. 1. He had a schedule to follow, and was loyal to this obligation. 2. He also did his efforts (probably through Dettmers financial operations) that the family of the victim was provided for generously. So what happened was that a man died in an accident, which he himself caused, no one would ever be prisoned for it, and the person’s family was provided for.
So in fact this objection and the description of what happened are definitely biased.

10. Objection re: “Alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs”
Mr. Rawat has struggled with addiction to alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs. Eyewitness accounts of his drug use and his drunk driving are available at the ex-premie website.

Reality: Probably M has (as a lot of other persons) experimented with such things. Any way, his personal life is not my business. What is important is that he does his job impeccably and whenever he is “performing” he seems to be the clearest person you can imagine.
So again in fact this objection is definitely biased.

11. Objection re: “The yacht”
Mr. Rawat recently purchased a 7-million-dollar yacht, named 'Serenity', yet he continues to charge substantial fees for his lectures and programs. Full information about the yacht is available at the ex-premie website.

Reality: M doesn’t own a yacht, but probably controls a company that owns or has leased it. How the yacht came into this companies possession is unknown, and might have happened by the way that one PWK or a group, purchased it and gave it to him, motivated from the love they feel for him

12. Objection re: “Front row seats for sale”
What is mostly unknown to the rank and file member of Elan Vital, is that front row seats to Mr. Rawat's talks are for sale for thousands of dollars.

Reality: It is no secret that programs are funded by money, and that the objective for the persons responsible for the programs is to accomplish it without a monetary loss, in spite of the fact that people can attend the programs without paying a fee. It is not a secret, even if it is not published that people who want might negotiate for a front seat. It is also a fact that everywhere else in this ”world” people pay extra for the privilege of a front seat.
Thus in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

13. Objection re: “The inner experience”
Mr. Rawat encourages his followers to believe that anything they experience in meditation is due to his grace and influence. He teaches them to depend on him for all inner experiences for their entire lives.

Reality: M. has a lot of times encouraged people to “see first, then believe”
Thus in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

14. Objection re: “Human relationships”
Mr. Rawat tells his followers that they should rely solely on the 'inner friend,' and that all other love relationships are secondary, imperfect, and not to be trusted. By following this teaching, his followers develop a toxic relationship with their own humanness.

Reality: M states that “worldly” love is not everlasting (I cant see the logic why this is a false statement) and are supposedly said in order to prevent people from being disappointed (which is easy to be in the real world) but he also states that there is an inner friend with whom you can have an everlasting love. The statement “should solely rely on an inner friend” is quite illogical and actually I think Ms intention is that he is encouraging people to really get in touch with reality and thus have a beneficial relationship to their humanness.
Thus in fact this objection is also false, biased and based on a lie.

So my question is: I understand the agony the ex-premies feel because they have not really understood what M is offering. It is also obvious for me that ex-premies regard themselves as experts at issues, when they in fact are totally ignorant. But I have a really hard time to understand the anger they express against PWKs and how they constantly continue to lie about a man whose mission always has been to try to inspire people to feel joy in their life. So my question is why?????

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 03:27:55 (GMT)
From: TELLMAN
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: THANK YOU IAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
THANK YOU SO MUCH IAN.SUCH A BREATH OF FRESH AIR AMOUNG ALL OF THIS NEGATIVITY.REALLY THANK YOU.
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: TELLMAN
Subject: Hey TELLMAN
Message:
TELLMAN,

Wassamaatta you?

The TRUTH of the matter gettin' to ya?

And guess what? Santa isn't real, either.

Thanks for sharing the love,

Ian

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:15:13 (GMT)
From: DLG
Email: None
To: TELLMAN
Subject: THANK YOU TELLMAN
Message:
You tell these vicious nasty ex-premies. Daddy would just love it that some real satsang was put here on the Hate Club by our beautiful brother Bjorn I mean karl.

I just love you to bits, Tellman and I know Daddy loves you too for the love that you have shown Him for the love that He has gifted you and all of us for which we are so grateful.

Lots and lots of love,

DLG (Daddy's Little Girl)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:04:00 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Ian Dury
Subject: My response to Karl
Message:
Thanks Ian for posting Karl’s response to Way’s 14 Objections. Since Karl has referenced me throughout his response, I feel a reply is called for. First, let me state unequivocally that my postings about Maharaji’s behavior on the Forum are not motivated by revenge against Maharaji, nor because I am bitter person as Karl states.

I can say that, for some time before I left M’s service and for a year or two after leaving, I experienced great disappointment and disillusionment that the noble vision espoused by M early on in his mission, a mission to which I and many others dedicated so many years of our lives, was failing so miserably and had absolutely no chance of ever being realized once I finally accepted that Maharaji’s behavior had degenerated into that of a drunken, self-obsessed megalomaniac, who cared for no one but himself. For a decade or so I said nothing about Maharaji. I put those years behind me and got on with my life and career, both of which have brought me much fulfillment as well as some disappointment, but not bitterness. As I have stated several times before, it was the Jagdeo revelations that compelled me to speak out and demand that Maharaji and Élan Vital take full responsibility for Jagdeo’s deplorable actions and do all that they can to make right this egregious situation, something that they have thus far failed to do.

I have also been motivated to continue posting because I have witnessed how effective this Forum is in helping premies exit Maharaji’s very destructive cult, as well as providing factual information for those who may be considering becoming followers of Maharaji based on the lies and deceptions about his persona and his knowledge perpetuated on the Élan Vital and related websites.

I will not address all of Karl’s arguments in defense of Maharaji as many of his points have been effectively handled by other posters.

2. Objection re: “Finances”

Karl: M. never demanded monetary contributions from his followers. He in fact, insisted on that Knowledge was given without being paid for, in spite the fact that one of his advisors (probably Dittmer’s) tried to persuade him to “sell” the Knowledge”. He in fact several times said, “I don’t want your money”.
So in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

Dettmers: Maharaji often requested cars, residences, planes, yachts, etc. for which premies were expected to dedicate their time and their money so that he could get what he wanted. And, of course we responded through countless fundraising events and service projects. In fairness to Karl, I was present when some of Maharaji’s non-premie legal advisors suggested to him that he charge for the knowledge, and Maharaji was equally emphatic that he would never do so.

4. Objection re: “The Jagdeo affair”

Karl: It is no proof and the persons involved, Dettmers, Judy Osborne and Randy Prout? actually don’t support this allegation and denies that M. was told about this incident. I think the person who made this allegation are not so sure anymore about her allegation that M was told. So in fact this objection is also false and most likely based on a lie.

Dettmers: Susan and Abi have already responded to this point. Let me add that, in my letter to Maharaji on July 25th last year, I gave him the benefit of the doubt about not knowing about the allegations. Since Élan Vital stated on its website that none of the victims had ever come forward, I wanted to do what I could to ensure that Susan had another opportunity to tell her story directly to Maharaji, which she did. There can no longer be any doubt that Maharaji knows about Jagdeo’s crimes, a fact that was driven home by his recent meeting with Abi’s father in Australia. Yet he and Élan Vital continue to try and sweep this matter under the carpet, and people like Karl continue to miss the essential point in this tragic situation.

7. Objection re: “X-rating”

Reality: M. has never teached a “lifestyle”, even if the traditional ashram life had regulations about what to eat, drink and so on. But as he said, his lifestyle is none of our business, just as much as Jims, Ways et al, is none of my business.
So in fact this objection is also false and based on a lie.

Dettmers: When I was involved, Maharaji did not practice what he preached, and he went to elaborate lengths to hide that fact from premies and the public. Why? Because he knew that such hypocritical behavior, if generally known, would seriously damage his credibility as a self-proclaimed Perfect Master. It’s not a matter of lifestyle, it’s a question of character, and Maharaji’s character is seriously flawed.

8. Objection re: “Several sexual affairs with premie women”

Reality: There are no first hand accounts of these affairs, (I suppose first hand accounts, must include the persons having a sexual relationship or someone actually witnessing such an act). Secondly Dettmers lack credibility for 2 reasons, he is a bitter person, who obviously is motivated to revenge M., and he also has no idea of what was going on. A friend of mine was during a program having an important meeting with one of the top executives in EV and in order to keep the meeting discrete, my friend was invited to have dinner in the hotel room of the executive. So in fact this objection is also false and based on”hearsay”.

Dettmers: I have already documented my short-lived role in helping Maharaji procure sexual favors from some of his women devotees. I have also dealt first-hand with the women he sexually exploited and then discarded shortly thereafter. Call me a liar if you like, but Maharaji’s affairs are not false nor based on “hearsay.”

9. Objection re: “Hit and run”

Reality: This might be possible, even if the witness Dettmers did not drive in the car. I suppose M was responsible in this situation for 2 reasons. 1. He had a schedule to follow, and was loyal to this obligation. 2. He also did his efforts (probably through Dettmers financial operations) that the family of the victim was provided for generously. So what happened was that a man died in an accident, which he himself caused, no one would ever be prisoned for it, and the person’s family was provided for. So in fact this objection and the description of what happened are definitely biased.

Dettmers: Only a cult apologist would offer up such a lame and morally reprehensible excuse in defense of his Perfect Master.

10. Objection re: “Alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs”

Reality: Probably M has (as a lot of other persons) experimented with such things. Any way, his personal life is not my business. What is important is that he does his job impeccably and whenever he is “performing” he seems to be the clearest person you can imagine. So again in fact this objection is definitely biased.

Dettmers: Excessive drinking on a daily basis over a period of decades can hardly be characterized as “experimenting.” People who are more experienced than I in these matters have concluded that Maharaji is an alcoholic, and have argued that his pattern of exploitation and abuse confirm their diagnosis. Such a person is not someone in whom I would place my trust.

Karl, you are free to believe whatever you want to believe, but many of your arguments are ungrounded because they are simply not based on the facts.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 10:11:21 (GMT)
From: magiclara(clarence)
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Hi
I would like to say thanks as well I too am a recent ex having been dormant for about 20 years. Thank you for making things clearer so that people like me can make more objective decisions.Got to go now going on holiday. See you all in a couple of weeks.
Bye magiclara
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 05:16:22 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thank you Michael
Message:
I appreciate the time and effort you have invested in posting at this site. I am a relatively recent ex, and reading the information you have provided has helped me get a broader perspective of what I had guessed at or felt, but could not substantiate, because I was involved as just a rank and file ashram premie. Thanks again for all your time and trouble.
Henry
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:20:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thank you, Michael
Message:
I hope that you will consider re-posting your reply to Karl on Lifes Great where his nonsense was originally posted. His post is a bit below the dignity of your carefully worded and serious reply but your reply may clarify matters for others who have read his post on Lifes Great but have not had the opportunity to read your reply.

Karl's post on Lifes Great

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:18:58 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks Pat, I just did (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:16:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Good, it will help somebody I know. Thanks NT
Message:
j
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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:01:05 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Another premie perspective on the 14 objections
Message:
Carlos takes a crack at the 14 objections letter (from Life's Great) - my favorite comment from Carlos is regarding #7 -'x-rated clearence is a myth'.

***************************************************************

Some of your points I agree with; some I disagree with. I'll be specific.

1) Substantially correct. As I recall it, it was the premies, including his family and the mahatmas, who made distorted claims like that. I believe it was so for 2 reasons; a) his family and the mahatmas bought into that part of hindu religious tradition, which is based on a religious misunerstanding of something I believe IS real, namely that b), God is everywhere, so all beings, all animals, all plants, all rocks, even, are God. Human beings are called 'the crown of creation' because we are the aspects of God with the gift of self awareness. The importance of a Satguru, of a Master, is that he can enable people to use 4 kryas, 4 techniques that without his grace are pretty weak concentration tools into tools that allow self awareness to become Self awareness, direct experential counciousness of God within. This makes Satguru pretty important, 'cause knowing our true nature is pretty important.

Taking this appoach was all he had to work with, at first. He didn't have control of the volenteers, at first. His mom and eldest brother did. (He was only 8 when he became Master, remember.) And it didn't interphere (sp?) with his work in India nor, at first, in the West. As he saw that it was, in fact, a poor way to propagate he began to gradually desecularize (if I'm using the word right) things, which led to having to break with his Mom and elbest brother, who are still locked into the Hindu/religious approach to this day.

2) I am an ex-Treasurer of a 'foriegn' branch of DLM, and have known quite a few of the wealthier premies who have always been the backbone, financially, of his work. They have never been pressured by M to fund anything; individual premies have sometimes done this, but never with his wish or approval. Due to my alcohol/drug addiction, which only got brought under control in '91, I've been poor for most of my time with Knowledge. I've been just as welcome in service, never been turned away at programs or events. Further, he and Elan Vital have been loked ai by the IRS, etc., and have always come thru with clean bills of health.

3) Some premies came out of the ashrams with as much, materially, as we had when we went into them. Some came out with less; I am one. In my case, it was before the ashrams where shut down, and I have every reason to beloeve I would have been made financially 'whole' if I'd wanted to be. Yet it would not suprise me if things were frequently quite different when the ashrams disolved. Many of the guys/gals who ran the ashrams where managerial innocents, who could easily have mismanaged things. Some, no doubt, were beaurocratic jerks, who may have occasionally treated some premies wrong then from malice. So finding some way to raise monies to make the 'ashramies' financially whole might well be a good idea. This probably should not come from monies intended for his work, but his getting EV to make old records available, on a confidential basis, to help such a fund identify & locate 'ashramies' would probably be apropriate.

4) I have come, reluctantly, to the conclusion that Jagdeo is a pedophile. I believe Abi, and Susan. I don't know if M was informed by the 2 who told Susan they did pass her message on or not. Something needs to be done to make amends to his victims and to make it easier for them to gain closure. There are rumbles and rumors that something of the sort is beginning. I hope they are true, and that M is involved.

5) The 4 kryas (techniques) are available many places. But myself, and many others who learned them elsewhere before coming to him, have found they work BETTER when recieved from M, directly or thru someone authorised by him. So there would seem to be good reason to get them from him.

6) Liniage. Irrelevant. If Knowlegde, recieved from him, works, and if Knowledge is worth having, that is what matters.

7) 'X-rating'. Does not match my experiance. I was CFO of a premie company whose founder was a regular at the parties at the residense often cited as a place where 'X-rated' stuff, including drugs and drunkeness, were supposed to have gone on. Not only would this guy have been unable to keep his yap shut with me, he couldn't have helped himself, he'd have gossipped with others. 'X-rated clearence' is a myth.

8) No real opinion either way; but it is interesting to note that, despite the stories having been on EPO for several years now, no 'dumpees' have come forward. Only the guy who claims he was M's panderer; and I comment in a post, below, where Gerry asked me for some feedback from an AA perspective, as to why I, personally, find Dettmers a laughably unreliable source.

9) Serious, if true. But again Dettmers is the only source, so I don;t sweat it.

10) re alcohol and drugs, see my response to Gerry's post, below. As to cigerettes, not a good health choice, if true. But let's have a life, guys! Being PC (politically correct) is very cult thinkish, no?

11) the yaught. Irrelevant, unless funds were improperly used to acquire it. Which there is no indication was the case. If he even owns it, indirectly. The case for that, while strong, is not proven.
And reverse snobishness, or envy, etc., isn't pretty, guys, and again smacks of cult think.

12) Front row seats. I've never had to pay for mine, the times I've had one. It is true that the people who are heavily involved in service, whether financially or otherwise, get a disproportionate seeming percentage of them; the only perk of the so-called 'grace race' that has ever made sense to me. But, so what? Certainly irrelevant to if he and/or K are real.

13) He has never encouraged me to dependancy. Bogus claim.

14) M does stress reliance on the thing within above and before all else. But he has also stressed, repeatedly, that this does NOT lessen the importance of jobs, responsibilities, etc., and that doing what is apropriate there must be done, too. Learn the importance of context, and QUIT distorting it!

Way, I'm not certain he stated your objections correctly. If we are going to do a thread on them, we might as well do it right, so if you were misquoted, etc., could you please let us know, so we don't take your objections out of context, either.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:18:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Carlos on Lifes Great is NOT KARL DICKENS
Message:
Carlos Harden is an absolutely straightforward guy who is kind, thoughtful and gentlemanly. I would defend his right to post here as a premie because he is so fair-minded and honest.

He advised Abi not to email Karl Dickens who, on the other hand, is deceitful, slimy and creepy and is possibly Bjorn Liar.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:37:44 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: A premie encounters 'how to debate' for Dummies
Message:
No, I'm serious. Notice those little phrases:

So in fact this objection is false and based on a lie. And of course, Thus in fact this objection is also false, biased and based on a lie.

Notice how the objection is false AND based on a lie

Only problem, this clown doesn't have the argument argued, he just inserts those lines after he says something idiotic.

OH Well-here we go:

OBJECTION 1:
...never claimed to be reincarnation of God. equal to Jesus Christ and Buddha, the Satguru, the Avatar, the Perfect Master of our times.
Thrown out- we have personal and written proof.

...he encouraged people to find the perfect master of their time

Yeah idiot! You got that one right. Only, guess what? He told us he WAS the PERFECT MASTER. I know putting 2 and 2 together is difficult.
*****************************************************************
OBJECTION 2:
M. never demanded monetary contributions from his followers. He in fact,insisted on that Knowledge was given without being paid for, in spite the fact that one of his advisors (probably Dittmer’s) tried to persuade him to “sell” the Knowledge”.
hmmm...probably Dittmers (gee! I wonder if he's Dettmers' evil twin)

He in fact several times said, “I don’t want your money”.
Got another one right, but alas, for the wrong reason. You see, that was EV's job to shake up the communities for money to support his greedy opulent megalomania life-style. ie $40M plane, $7M yacht--who gives a fuck how the paperwork was pushed. Does anyone else use these toys? Nope. Nope. Just BigHead. BigHead's toys. See that?
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 3:
...In fact many of the ashram members received in the ashram training that enabled have more discipline in their life. So they were able to maintain jobs and take an education.

Yeah right! I worked at DECA fuck head. Most people worked under deplorable conditions for little little money that went to the ashram kitty. They didn't get to explore their talents because they were exploited to do things for M. People offered service there--university graduates conducted menial tasks just to be near Maharaji...sorry Dude...you were obviously out of the loop in service opportunities, I wasn't.

Some became very successfully in this “world”.

As opposed to WHAT 'world', idiot. This is an interesting admission in itself. How about all the other premies who would have been successful if they hadn't been caught up in M's fuckin circus.
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 4:
Reality: It is no proof and the persons involved, Dettmers, Judy Osborne and Randy Prout? actually don’t support this allegation and denies that M. was told about this incident. I think the person who made this allegation are not so sure anymore about her allegation that M was told.

Idiot. It is no proof(????).. people involved -- hey the name is Prouty, shit! Guy doesn't even know who the players are, but he's an expert. Go read Susan's post that includes Michael's back and forth letters.

So in fact this objection is also false and most likely based on a lie.

If in fact it's false then why is this one only PROBABLY based on a lie. Idiot slipped on this one.

Actually, I think it's just really fuckin cruel to be attacking their credibility. I remember hearing about Jagdeo incidents way back in Miami...(hey Susan, I used to be good friends with Lothar & Recardo--I think we've met). Prmeies would be bigger people just to leave this one alone.
*****************************************************************
OBJECTION 5:
M doesn’t claims to have the sole privilege of teaching these techniques.(Actually to be honest anyone can try to teach them to others –

Huh Idiot-yeah I'm still talkin to you. Do you detect a little contradiction here. What do you mean anyone can try --doesn't that imply that no one can. You obviously do not know what we're even talking about, here. Why answer a question you don't understand. Makes you look like an
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 6:
When M. indicates this, it is probably because he was told so.

Well now, BigHead is a big boy now, and he should of told everyone his fuckin alcoholic father lied to him when he was just a baby satgoogoo...and that's he's very sorry, he shared those talltales. Is he doing that? NOPE.

(His message is that no one can in reality remember from their past lifetimes and that the only thing which exists is “here and now”.

Well-misunderstood another question, but Guru bless you, you give it a shot anyhow. It's about lineage not about reincarnation.

But if his Knowledge works,...

Get closer to the screen, no real close...
You are being hoodwinked into believing it is HIS Knowledge. Liar liar pants on fire.

...who cares?

We do! And apparently so do you, or you wouldn't have answered it.
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 7:
M. has never teached a “lifestyle”, even if the traditional ashram life had regulations about what to eat, drink and so on.

Asshole-Who do you think brought the 'inherited' ashram lifestyle. Shit! You couldn't do better than that!

But as he said, his lifestyle is none of our business, just as much as Jims, Ways et al, is none of my business.

Jim, Way, et al (Al who?) never claimed to be god, idiot.

*****************************************************************
OBJECTION 8:
There are no first hand accounts of these affairs, (I suppose first hand accounts, must include the persons having a sexual relationship or someone actually witnessing such an act).

Yaw Thunk!

Secondly Dettmers lack credibility for 2 reasons, he is a bitter person, who obviously is motivated to revenge M.,...

Now now, Let me see, Michael Dettmers has an obvious motivation for revenge. Can't see it! But it's obvious, Deborah. Shit, I can't see it-maybe I'm not working the techniques right.

... and he also has NO idea of what was going on.

You mean M telling MD that he wants to have affairs and then having MD be the pimp. MD advised M to take hookers, but not the selfish bastard, fucker couldn't live without devotion in or out of bed. Is THAT the part of no idea you're talking about.

A friend of mine was during a program having an important meeting with one of the top executives in EV and in order to keep the meeting discrete, my friend was invited to have dinner in the hotel room of the executive.

What the fuck does this have to do with M fucking premie womem? We don't give a fuck about EV's personal professional or sexual antics. I went to Michael Dettmers hotel room once to do service and that's what I did. I worked on a prospectus that was going to the bank. The information was confidential. If he asked me to sleep with Maharaji, now that would be a different story. You're asleep at the wheel bud.
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 9:
This might be possible, even if the witness Dettmers did not drive in the car. I suppose M was responsible in this situation for 2 reasons. 1. He had a schedule to follow, and was loyal to this obligation. 2. He also did his efforts (probably through Dettmers financial operations) that the family of the victim was provided for generously. So what happened was that a man died in an accident, which he himself caused, no one would ever be prisoned for it, and the person’s family was provided for.

You poor sick puppy...if someone ran over your child, or mother, or any loved one...but left because he was IMPORTANT...would that be OK for you? It's called HIT=AND=RUN, you IDIOT. The coward bastard deflected authorities, WHY? He obviously had plenty of time to PLOT.
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 10:
Probably M has (as a lot of other persons) experimented with such things.

Experimented? Not according to sources. It's the hypocrisy of M's life and his dictatorial cult-sensitizing intentions that is being called into question, not the fact that he tokes.

What is important is that he does his job impeccably and whenever he is “performing”...

Does WHAT job impeccably? He doesn't have a job. Funny thing, the bum owns a $40M bird, $7M yacht, ....

he seems to be the clearest person you can imagine.

No. He's the clearest person YOU can imagine because of your cult induced insanity. He's clear as mud for US!
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 11:
M doesn’t own a yacht, but probably controls a company that owns or has leased it. How the yacht came into this companies possession is unknown, and might have happened by the way that one PWK or a group, purchased it and gave it to him, motivated from the love they feel for him

M owns and operates the yacht and everyone who sees it probably bows down before it...he owns it, idiot. Who cares how the paperwork is pushed. And it didn't come out of nowhere, idiot. Of course, somebody KNOWS, besides God, er I mean GURU, er I mean God...
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 12:
...It is not a secret, even if it is not published that people who want might negotiate for a front seat.
It is also a fact that everywhere else in this ”world” people pay extra for the privilege of a front seat.

Poor guy, still comparing things to this 'world'-as opposed to what? I'll give the guy this one. Ironically, I got a front row-dead centre seat for giving a fund-raising donation to the right premie who I met because I knew the right premie and this other premie who was sitting 2 rows back from me was rich (he was also my friend) and he offered to buy it off of me. And I said NO! Now that's devotion.
*****************************************************************

OBJECTION 13:
has a lot of times encouraged people to “see first, then believe”

Of course, get inundated in the cult first so you won't know your ass from your elbow THEN ask for a bowl of Special K. M can't afford people who still have their rational critical mind in tack, wouldn't be prudent.
*****************************************************************
And finally,
OBJECTION 14:
M states that “worldly” love is not everlasting (I cant see the logic why this is a false statement) and are supposedly said in order to prevent people from being
disappointed (which is easy to be in the real world) but he also states that there is an inner friend with whom you can have an everlasting love. The statement “should solely rely on an inner friend” is quite illogical and actually I think Ms intention is that he is encouraging people to really get in touch with reality and thus have a beneficial relationship to their humanness.

M states that 'wordly' love is not everlasting (maybe because we're mortal?)because he wanted/wants us prevent us from being disappointed. hmmm. IDIOT. M is making you dysfunctional in relationships by saying such stupid assinine remarks. He is responsible for the DAMAGE induced to families, friends, and lovers. If M was encouraging people to get in touch with reality rather than their inner cult-victim, you and I wouldn't be here.

Wow! That's a lot of work...got to run


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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:04:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: #1:that God...who has manifested Himself as a Guru
Message:
Who is Guru Maharaj ji?

The 'authentic authorized story':
'Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? Why do Christian priests claim that he has taught them the way to love? Why do Hindus refer to him as the Swan Avatar?'
-- DLM/EVI, Bantam Books, 1973

'God is the same, but now we look for Him to come in a new way, to give His Knowledge. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge...' -- miragey
...'they expect God Himself to come, they pray for it, they ask for it, they announce about it, but when He comes they fail to recognize Him. And not recognizing Him is His physical form, they cannot recognize him within themselves.' -- miragey

...'whenever he comes to the physical world, the Perfect Master has to tolerate many difficulties.' - miragey

'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.' -miragey

'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey [aka maharaji aka guru maharaj ji], 15 years old, 1973 Shri Hans Productions

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:42:51 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: 'I have come with full powers this time'...
Message:
Here are some excerpts from 'Life with Knowledge' (circa 1975), A Premie Guidebook, DLM:

Chapter 6, entitled 'AGYA':
'You were told about this word, and explained its meaning thousands and thousands of times. And the word is 'agya'. If you follow agya, there is no big deal, no big problem. Then you don't have to worry. It's like, you're told to do something and you do it! ... It's Like Guru Maharaj Ji is standing a hundred feet above you and saying, 'Listen. You want to get out of this place? Okay. Now make a left.' And you go, 'I don't need your advice.'
'But if a person can be that humble and really understand that, 'YES, I AM A LITTLE CHILD, and I need directions,' then everything will be so beautiful.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

On the use of drugs and alcohol: 'Well, the only thing I can tell you is that, look, you already have a Knowledge that is much more superior than that. It is like this: a person is in one city and he is telling everybody, 'Oh, I want to go to another city as soon as possible.' And he has a falcon jet which is A-OK. It runs; it's perfect. But all he does is take his suitcase and start walking. And that's not the quickest way. It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

Service to the Master:
'If you want to be a disciple at all. If you want to be a real human being, first of all you have to be a servant. And how can one become a servant? By service.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji

[Remember:'The servant is the Master's DOG.' -- Shri Hans Maharaj]

Channels of Communication:
'...channels of communication through which DIRECTION can be given so that we all can work together. Therefore, everyone arranging any activities in either my name or in the name of Divine Light Mission MUST CONTACT Headquarters by telegram, telephone, or telex, FOR APPROVAL OF ANY PROPOSED ACTIVITY... BY ESTABLISHING THIS COMMUNICATION, ALL ACTIVITIES CAN BE APPROVED AND SUPPORTED BY THE DIVINE LIGHT MISSION, AND ANY SPECIAL PROPOSALS WILL BE ABLE TO COME TO MY ATTENTION BEFORE IMPLEMENTATION...' -- Sant Ji Maharaj [aka Guru Maharaj Ji aka Maharaji aka Prem Rawat aka Prempal Singh Rawat] (caps added)

[miragey, we got this lil' problem involving those premie assassins who got sent to kill Pat Halley for throwing that cream pie in your face and embarrassing you. Unfortunately for DLM, Halley lived. What to do now?
m: 'GET FAKIRANAND OUT OF THE COUNTRY!!'
Can I have a toke, too, before I leave, boss?]

'The Lord of the Universe has come to us this day...' authorized premie hymn of bhakti worship to m.

[To lurking premies: read 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji?' the miragey 'authorized' Bantam book about the Lord in human flesh, 'the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet.' 'I have come with full powers...' --m.

'God is the same,but now we look for Him to come, in a new way, to give His Knowledge. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. I...' -- m.

like, we are offering you guys the possibility of brains...]

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:00:00 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Guru, greater than God 'cause Guru shows you God
Message:
Who said that, when and where, anybody know? I know Charananand said it at least once, but I'd appreciate more input on that one.

The ramifications of that statement are very ramma-damma-ding-dang. A little help over here...? And I don't buy the cultural differences thing about east and west being the reason it doesn't compute. Shit man, I give God Almighty more credit for being prepped on the room His number one rep is playing than to say something that would cause so much confusion and contradict the last top-billed incarnation and scriptures as well.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:34:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Whose 'number one' rep????
Message:
WHOSE 'number one' rep?

click here

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:18:04 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ***DUDE, WHERE'S MUY GURU???***
Message:
cq,

Whoa, dude! I never saw THAT one buhfore. Sheeeeit. And you know what's even wierder? I tried to see it again just now and the link took me to musicmafia.com or something like that. Whhhhooooaaaa, dude.

Dude, where's my guru???? The teenage version with the caption in two languages stating that God is great but Guru is greater because Guru shows you God? Come on, dude....

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:58:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Sandy
Subject: ***YOUR GURU???***
Message:
like 'your Guru needs you'?

Well, if Big Brother has somehow joined the Music Mafia, as you suggest, can I suggest you email me your email address and I'll forward the pic to you.

(unless I get for fitted a pair of concrete galoshes first) ;)

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:57:27 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Ichiro is 'number one' in Japan[ese]. (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:46:37 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Objection number four
Message:
Well, gosh, what next? We've had pathologise the victims, secondary abuse, flaming and now Susan and I are liars.


4. Objection re: “The Jagdeo affair”
Mr. Rawat was informed by two of his close associates that his instructor Jagdeo was sexually molesting premie children Mr. Rawat did not prevent Jagdeo from continuing in his service, travelling around the world, with access to more children. Two of the victims speak out on the ex-premie website.
Reality: It is no proof and the persons involved, Dettmers, Judy Osborne and Randy Prout? actually don’t support this allegation and denies that M. was told about this incident. I think the person who made this allegation are not so sure anymore about her allegation that M was told.
So in fact this objection is also false and most likely based on a lie.

Lie? So Susan lied? So I lied? So my father lied about telling Charanand and some PAM who apparently laughed in his face?

So I should heal huh?

The 'heal' obedience command is wearing thin.

I'm really losing my PATIENCE with this.

Abi

oh and Richard 11 - leave me alone Mr macho man.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:04:25 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: what I think
Message:
since there is speculation as to what I think this is what I think:

Everything I stated about Jagdeo is the absolute truth. Everything I have stated about reporting it is the truth. I did report it to Randy. I did report it to Judy. Judy did get back to me later to tell me Rawat 'already knew and is glad this is not a new incident'. This stuff happened. I cannot find any explanation for what Judy said than Rawat did know.

As I reported once, I have this year spoken to Judy on the phone, and she seemed very upset about all of this and denies remembering. I cannot see how a person could forget something such as this. Judy herself SPECULATED that perhaps it was because I called by phone and maybe she passed it on to a third party and heard back from the third party the 'already knew' part. She did NOT call me a liar, and actually, to me, seemed to be really trying to recall. Now, she could be a really great liar, or she could have a really terrible memory, but either way, it happened, because I DO REMEMBER.

Randy, on the other hand, who I knew fairly well, emphatically states he does not remember. I can't buy that at all. I can't get how he could forget. In fact, two people who knew me back then recall my telling them, IN THE SEVENTIES, about telling Randy about Jagdeo and about Jagdeo.

This stuff did happen, and I will NOT be intimidated into lying about it. All of the people involved should have to live with the truth.

I have good reason to believe too that EV and Rawat know of other cases of Jagdeo abusing children that we know far less about than they do.

This thing is a time bomb and they should come out with the truth.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:34:32 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: To Abi and Susan...what I think
Message:
Dear Abi and Susan,

I think that of all the despicable acts that Maharaji has committed in recent months (not included of course, everything else we KNOW about him) is now allowing this new ''attack, discredit, re-victimize'' tactic on the part of premies against you.

It is because of Maharaji's cowardice, the weakness of EV, which Maharaji rules, that this particular backlash has started. I'm not surprised, frankly. Whenever the real truth about something as heinous as child sexual abuse is brought to the surface, i.e., when victims/survivors ''tell,'' denial automatically sets in.

Yet I find these despicable referrences to you both, in addition to direct attacks here on EPO F5 to be beyond the pale.

It's truly sad when premies, or ANYONE in the world minimizes the affects of abuse. I'm so sorry your character and veracity are being put on the discussion table in order to discredit all of us ex-premies. It's sad, pathetic, and so typical of Maharaji.

This is so personal I can't say ''don't take it personally.'' I am also very tired of your being told to move on and heal. I can't count the times I've been told that to the point of feeling so much shame and frustration. I know what it's like and anyone who says EPO is ''using'' you or that you are using EPO is so full of shit. Maharaji is such a coward!

Do premies actually believe you are going to say you are lying? Isn't that incredulous? I can assure you, I will never let this rest. You don't deserve this harrassment. It's so cruel. This seems to have become more than the issue of the cult, but also political, too.

So, be well and hug your kids,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 04:46:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia, Abi and Susan
Subject: The abuse of Abi and Susan continues because ...
Message:
M won't come clean, and tell the premies that it IS true. These brainwashed apologists continue to abuse Abi and Susan by their denial. They won't believe anything bad about their cult unless they year it from the Master's mouth.

That is because for years he has had others be the bearers of bad news, so that the premies could choose to disbelieve it and 'shoot the messenger.'

Abi and Susan are brave indeed to stand firm. It is bad enough that these blind followers tell me to get on with my life. It is egregious for them to tell that to Abi and Susan. Stonor gave me a link to another cult, the 'Fellowship of Friends,' whose main center is here in Northern California. Their guru abuses (mostly) young males. It was chilling to read the account on the website where ex-followers who complained were slagged because they needed to 'get on with their lives.'

I knew two formers members of this cult when I lived in San Francisco. Stonor's link filled me in on the details, some of which I already knew. Here's the link if you can stand it.

It was the same theme, if you don't care to bother: Abuse the abused.

love and solidarity, Francesca

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:22:44 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I agree
Message:
Susan,

I too believe that EV and Rawat know of other cases of Jagdeo abusing children. Between the two of us we know of six others who have not come forward yet and that is not counting the other premie girls in Miami that you knew about. I suspect that abused children have been managed or silenced somehow in the past or that they are so damaged that they do not have the strength to speak.

Jagdeo was a practicing pedophile for at least thirty years. It is reasonable to assume that he was a pedophile before he became a Mahatma in Divine Light Mission. He often talked about how he missed his children. That was the excuse he gave for wanting to make us all lie down in a circle. God only knows what horrors he left behind in India when he toured the world with Divine Light Mission or what horrors he subjected children to when he was grounded in India in the 80s.

WAKE UP PREMIES.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:40:15 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Mr K (not Charles?) Dickens makes one thing clear:
Message:
Abi, Susan,

If there's ANY way that I can offer my support for the two of you (and also for the other victims who have yet to come forward), then please, just tell me. For you to face such a blatant denial of what you both know to be true must be trying in the extreme.

However, what 'Mr Dickens' (Karl/Charles Dickens???) is forgetting is that his desperate attempts to try and defend his 'Master' are simply creating more damage for Maharaji and his 'cause'.

How?

Simply by refusing to acknowledge the element of doubt.

Mr Dickens doesn't even consider that there might be any truth in the allegations, he merely says to himself 'I don't want to believe that these allegations could be true, therefore they can't be', thus making it blindingly obvious to any moderately impartial observer that his refutations are nothing more than wishful-thinking. Nothing more than a blatant demonstration of his unwillingness to fully consider the issues raised.

He might not want to believe that the accusations are based on fact, but dismissing them so flippantly makes it evident that his mind has in fact become 'cultified', to coin a phrase.

And to think that his motive in posting was to deny the cult aspect of being involved in Maharaji! The very fact that he cannot countenance criticism without the kind of blanket denials he offers says one thing VERY loudly! i.e. HE IS IN A CULT! - Just look what it's done to his powers of reasoning!

Denial: 'The refusal to accept reality. To act as if a painful event, thought or feeling did not exist'.

Mr Dickens (and EV) has it in spades. Maharaji too, to judge by his reticence in dealing with ... soooooooo many issues.

Be strong, the both of you!
(thinks - if anyone's had to learn how to be, it must be you).

Regards,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 16:38:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: A premie counters the 14 objections letter
Message:
Hi Ian,

Thanks for that...I thought the response to the hit and run was precious. He had a schedule to follow and maybe compensated the family of the victim. How virtuous of m!

This part really gets me:

So my question is: I understand the agony the ex-premies feel because they have not really understood what M is offering. It is
also obvious for me that ex-premies regard themselves as experts at issues, when they in fact are totally ignorant. But I have a really hard time to understand the anger they express against PWKs and how they constantly continue to lie about a man whose mission always has been to try to inspire people to feel joy in their life. So my question is why?????

Typical cult speak. The assumption that ex-premies are in agony is twisted around; perhaps the word ex-premies should be replaced by ''premies'' in this paragraph. The premies sound pathethically desperate to manage the damage of recent publicity of poor mahaha. This is quite a learning experience, the denial of the cult members. I can remember when I was in that spot, too, long ago.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:47:18 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: premies:'totally ignorant' about m. for 30 yrs (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 17:29:52 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The bicyclist + the Master,20th cent. satsang tale
Message:
Here's one the premies can tell their grandchildren:

Once upon a time long ago, a very busy Perfect Master was hurrying from a blissful satsang to the airport to travel to another place where many dedicated devotees were waiting to hear his pearls of wisdom and bask in the glow of his presence.

On the way, a bicyclist was peddling on the same road. The Master, who was driving one of the many powerful automobiles at his disposal, hit the bicyclist and killed him. The Master was very sad about this, but he had a very busy schedule and had no time to deal with the tragedy personally. So he ran a Chinese fire drill with his entourage, let the authorities believe that the houseboy was driving, paid off the bereaved family very handsomely, and went on his way, for he had a very busy schedule.

The bicyclist, upon being swept directly to the Supreme Abode, was presented with a solid gold bicycle and was told that all he had to do for eternity was roll around heaven all day, like that lucky old sun.

The Master kept his schedule on track and thereby brought 327 more people to realize that he something special that he could show them that would change their lives forever for the better, and more appreciate how precious this human body and life are.

All the premies were so happy that the Master dealt with the matter as he did, and were thrilled to know that their donations helped to provide the money to support the suvivors of the bicyclist, even though it was not the original seed money that got the Master off the ground, but rather the wise investments he had chosen to partake of due to his infinite wisdom and some sharp accountants.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 20:10:07 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Great satire Sandy and 3 on the trot ....
Message:
...I'm speechless with admiration.

It's easier to be creative if you're in front of the looking glass rather than behind it isn't it ?

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:38:34 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Best to go thru it and keep on truckin' (nt)
Message:
safsgfw
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 19:32:59 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Tell us another parable Uncle Sandy....
Message:
It's more fun to be on the other side of the scrutiny, isn't it?

Go ahead, tell us another one! The material from that premie with his first 'how to debate' for Dummies manual is loaded with material.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:41:48 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Once upon a time...
Message:
there was a guy who told a few parables and got asked for more on a day when he had to study and do a take home test for his new job, so he couldn't tell any more parables that day. But he promised to get back and tell some more when he had time.

Moral: Gotta pay the bills and storytime comes later. Until then, talk among yourselves.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 21:46:27 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Once upon a time...
Message:
There was a girl who should have been writing a paper on SATAN (true! the characterization in 'Paradise Lost') but she was getting stuck in Land o' the Cults. She also has to go but would like to hear more stories one day. The end!
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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:51:44 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: OJ, Deborah...The Master and the Ex-premies
Message:
Here's another one the premies can tell their grandkids and future aspirants, or share at satsangs:

Once upon a time there was a Master who traveled the world to reveal Knowledge. He was very young and lovable and many young people looking for truth were attracted to him and followed him. As the years went by, many things happened that affected some of the premies adversely. Some of these things happened due to the actions of some of the Master's closest servants, and some of the things happened due to things the Master himself did and said, according to those who the things happened to. Also, the Master and some of his people were behaving in ways that made some of the premies who knew about it very uncomfortable and sketchy about the whole thing. The people who broke away from the Master - not as a rejection of God but rather of the man who claimed to be the principal spokesman for God, yea, even greater than God because he shows you God - and these people who spoke up about these things banded together and went online to communicate with each other and tried to compare notes and come up with a comprehensive picture of the proverbial elephant with the blind men all grabbing one part or another. By talking among themselves, they were becoming able to come up with a much more comprehensive understanding of what had happened to them than if they all tried to figure it out themselves.

Meanwhile, certain of the premies who still believed that the Master was beyond criticism and error, began to verbally attack and try to ensnare the ex-premies -for that is what they called themselves, but really they were still premies who got hurt and abused and taken advantage of, although they also had their share of bongos just as the premies did- and there was much discord on the internet between the premies and the ex-premies, the human beings and the other human beings. And some of the ex-premies also tried to ensnare the premies into verbal traps, not to bring them down but to show them what they had experienced that had hurt them and made them no longer believe in the person of the Master.

Meanwhile, the Master was sunning himself on the yacht that nobody owns but he can use at will, thanks to the seed money that premies put up and the infinite wisdom and cleverness of the Master to multiply it, with the help of some sharp accountants.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:05:45 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: the parable of the Houseboy
Message:
the moral of the story would be how very lucky the simple houseboy was to have the opportunity to serve his Lord without question or hesitation. The devotion it takes to take the rap for a hit and run....
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:13:13 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: the parable of the Houseboy
Message:
Or maybe another more worldly moral of the story would be that if you have enough money and people under your influence, you too can be above the law.
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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:01:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Pedophile + the Master,20th cent. satsang tale
Message:
Here's another one the premies can tell their kids and grandkids and aspirants:

Once upon a time long ago there was a Perfect Master who had a mahatma who loved children alot, but not in a healthy way. His unseemly love for children was so great that he acted out his love with them, even though the children did not know exactly what he was doing at the time, and were made to feel very uncomfortable and confused. But they were children of devotees and had no real voice to express all the confusion of feelings they were having as a result of the mahatma's advances. Their parents were all devotees of the Master, and the children felt like they could not talk to anyone about this troubling issue.

As these children grew up and matured, they realized that the mahatma had really hurt them and had taken advantage of them when they were younger. The mahatma continued to travel the world, seeking out children to be alone with and sitting in seats of honor at programs,close to the Master. And the Master continued to send the mahatma all over the world to represent him and his great gift of the Knowledge of God within to everyone who wanted to know about it. The parents of children who were unaware of the mahatma's problem were so blissed out that such a holy man would want to spend time with their child they never suspected his real motives and his criminal sickness.

Two particullarly courageous young women who had been taken advantage of by the mahatma's misplaced affections began to speak out and bring to light the nightmare they had endured. They told their parents and some of the Master's closest assistants about the mahatma, yet nothing seemed to change. One of the assistants even said that the Master was aware of the problem. Years went by and the mahatma still traveled the world, doing what he would.

In their frustration, the courageous young women went online and told the story for all to hear, casting shyness about it to the wind, and seeking justice and an end to the nightmare for themselves and unknown countless other children. In response to their ever so sincere and genuine claims, the Master expressed his heartfelt feelings to one of the parents, the assistants of the Master claimed to remember nothing of the incidents or hearing or being told about it, and the mahatma is living like a retired holy man somewhere in the world, thanks to the donations of the premies who provided the seed money for the Master to multiply his wealth due to his infinite wisdom and some sharp accountants.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:18:24 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: postscript
Message:
And the premies who heard of the mahatma's alleged crimes against premie children viciously attacked the courageous young women who bravely spoke up, accusing them of lying, while the majority of the premies were totally oblivious to the whole situation and would not believe it even if they were told about it, for it would so upset their life, world and universe, that they would have to reconstruct their lives from practically scratch, for they had invested so much faith, time and money already.

to be continued...

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:33:57 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: postscript
Message:
I like this style of yours, Sandy.

Spoke to an oldtimer last week. He started the whole rap and I told him that I was an 8 yr old that saw that the Santa Claus thing was a sham and had mixed feelings about telling others that there never was a Santa.

And he could call me if he was ready to explore life after Santa.
Or read the Best of Forum.

Told him it was fun when I thought there was a Santa.
But even more fun exploring Human Possibility without a personal Jesus.

Happy 4th of July, you firecracker you !

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:49:12 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: postscript
Message:
I like this style of yours, Sandy. -Mark

Hi, Mark, glad you showed up. By the way, please call me or e-mail me your phone number again. I have something to talk with you about. -Sandy

Spoke to an oldtimer last week. He started the whole rap and I told him that I was an 8 yr old that saw that the Santa Claus thing was a sham and had mixed feelings about telling others that there never was a Santa. -M

I was pretty much in the dark about Santa, being raised to focus on the famous flying Macabee brothers and the miraculous 8 day oil lamp at that age. I taught my kids early that Santa Claus was the Spirit of giving and representing the love of God to mankind in the form of giftgiving. -S

And he could call me if he was ready to explore life after Santa.
Or read the Best of Forum. Told him it was fun when I thought there was a Santa. But even more fun exploring Human Possibility without a personal Jesus. -M

I have come to realize that we are our own personal Jesus, once the Christ spirit has awakened within us and we can go straight to the Father on our own two feet, just as the 2000 year old man Jesus said we could and would if we stayed with the program. -S

Happy 4th of July, you firecracker you! -M

Call me, you old sparkler. -Sandy

ps I don't know what got me, but as I recall, the Mother Goose stories were true parables about injustices of the day, cloaked in fairy tales. It just came out. And ya catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 15:29:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Regarding number #1..yeah, that's the ticket
Message:
Yeah, Ian & Karl, it was really hard to wrestle Maharaji and hold him while we tied him to the chair and set up the tunnel so we could KISS HIS FEET against his will! He really didn't want to do it and we had to put some tranks in his coffee to make him sit still for so long.

We also zapped him with mind control to listen to all of us all over the world sing Arti to him in which he is described as the superior power in person, and how we bow down to such a wonderful Lord. He wanted to protest, but was so out of it from the tranks in darshan that he just could not speak.

And then there are the many many articles from old publications (which we were told to destroy), during which time he apparently was hypnotized by one of his trusted advisors to say such things that very strongly suggested his divinity.

I think some of the greedy mahatmas are behind the whole thing...
yeah, that's the ticket.

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 18:14:56 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: re tickets-#12,front row seat for 5000,anyone?
Message:
'It is not a secret, even if it is not published that people who want might negotiate for a front seat.'

Ok, I guess the cat's outta the bag now:

scalper outside 'miragey on ice': git yer front row seats now. limited supply. I got 4 up-front tix to see the Lord - oops, I mean the Master - for $20,000. Hey, for you, brother and sister, a special bargain: two 10th-row seats for only $1,000 each. Hur-ry hur-ry. Program starts in 20 minutes...

Peace and Lentils,

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