Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:24:11 (GMT)
From: Jul 06, 2001 To: Jul 15, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Mark -:- The now infamous miraclelurker thread -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:39:41 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Answering Mark -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:48:34 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Sinking the boat -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 06:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ technicality -:- Sinking the boat -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Sinking the boat -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:25:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ technicality -:- Sinking the boat -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Sinking the boat -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:03:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Very honest post Brian (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Bollocks, Brian. FA please ban me. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Bollocks, Brian. FA please ban me. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sonny G -:- She was spot on eh Pat? MK I mean -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- She was spot on eh? MK I mean - oh yes, SG -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- You still here Thelma? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:16:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Your gallstones are showing David - NT -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:37:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- The limits of bourgeoise control on the Web -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:52:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborh -:- Sometimes, I wish I could be as calm as you.../nt -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:39:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Vive la difference !! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Vive la difference !! -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Brilliant John. Ban me FA. NT -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS John meet you at AG. Ban me FA. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:12:35 (GMT)

EPO Webmaster -:- EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:16:16 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- EPO, Jim Heller, and the TRAITOR email to Glasser -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:47:46 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Intensity of passion -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:34:01 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Intensity of passion -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 04:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Always appreciate your steady approach /nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- I will - and already have, Richard -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Sorry Katie, I stand corrected -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:16:27 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- tragic -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Something about lawyers -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:06:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- something about a holy war -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:19:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You mean Jihad just started ???? Or Krishna? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:28:56 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- Ho! Ho! Very satirical, FA -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:37:57 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Melodramatic bullshit -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:34:26 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- What's wrong withe me? I can't understand all this -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:31:21 (GMT)
__ A Professional Eye -:- EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ So who are you? -:- Brave words, indeed. -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Fucking tripe APE (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ A Flea in your Ear -:- Some friendly advice from APE. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Okay, I posted as Flea, Ban me FA - NT -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:59:20 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:56:08 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 03:13:45 (GMT)
__ Dale Carnegie -:- read my book yet? I think not -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Hi Dale, LOVED your book... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:47:27 (GMT)
__ LOL -:- EPO, Brian ?, E-Mail -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:41:27 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- Keep the site, Get rid of the Forum(nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:21:20 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- dumb idea Daneane...no way.....nt -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- I've been flamed, ban Bill. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill-ok, it's a lovely -:- idea, but then I would not get to read you..nt -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Hey - how bout no rules and hosted chat rooms -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- the room exists--EPOF5, talkcity. i made one. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:22:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Monologue -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:41:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- that little cngrts seems to be ignored by mst. NT -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:03:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'll repeat my explanation -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- I'll repeat my explanation -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:17:49 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Oh Christ, I'll post it then -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:32:41 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Oh Christ, I'll post it then -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:37:44 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Oh Christ, I'll post one more message then -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:47:16 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- We've got forums coming out of our ears -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:56:07 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Sounds encouraging Sir Dave (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:43:20 (GMT)

Bob -:- the premie within(?) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:16:35 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Dutch euthanasia to save us from -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:49:10 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- things that go 'bhole shri!!' in the night... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:20:30 (GMT)

Dermot -:- Is the FA really a premie? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:43:13 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Funny kinda. More shit for the cesspool. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:02:41 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Hey, call me a premie! -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:51:56 (GMT)

Sandy -:- The parable of the travelers and the Glass -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:43:32 (GMT)
__ janet -:- The parable of the travelers/Glass- codicil -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- The parable of the travelers/Glass- codicil -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:47:14 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The parable of the travelers and the Glass -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:49:43 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Is that your tongue in your cheek... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:00:09 (GMT)
__ SF -:- hey you I've been chronicling this show -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Who goes there? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:55:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ SF -:- me Selene -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:57:37 (GMT)

Moley -:- An Asshole's exchanges with Charles Glasser? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:01:57 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- to doggy Charles: I am havin' a great experience.. -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:57:44 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Thanks Moley -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 11:21:25 (GMT)
__ MK -:- 'So ban me, FA. I am gone already' Really MW? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:01:30 (GMT)
__ __ Artemis -:- 'So ban me, FA. I am gone already' Really MW? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:29:36 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- And I still know who you are MK. Ban me FA! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:58:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- SHIT! I'm done, fried, finished, socially Kaput! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:45:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Shall I post you address and phone number on AG? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Out the fuckin asshole! You have my email -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- No, I'd rather the front page of the NewYorkTimes -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:38:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Dream on Dave. Er, Muggles. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 11:23:27 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Heeeeeeeeeelp !! My niece is into Osho !!! -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:00:41 (GMT)
__ janet -:- he died of AIDS from sex with his devotees -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- OK, then I'll advise my niece to use condoms (nt)! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:19:23 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Here's one.... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:23:13 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Here's more.... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:45:43 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Put her in touch with cq. (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:51:30 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- and ... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:13:16 (GMT)
__ Gina -:- Hi, again, J-M. A quote from the book I have -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:57:22 (GMT)
__ Gina -:- Hello, go to www.osho.com -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ sicul -:- Hello, go to www.osho.com -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:17:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What do you mean by * real* initiation ? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:08:03 (GMT)

Nigel -:- My definitions of a cult -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:15:29 (GMT)

Forum Admin -:- Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:12:46 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- Then DELETE ALL our contributions! Let JIM RESPOND -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:44:59 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:28:14 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- My apology-Brian's fault for mixing up players -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:04:33 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- THE INCREDIBLY SHRINKING PENIS!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:26:42 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING PENIS!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:07:59 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Deb.....ID update :) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:09:26 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Please read my post carefully -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:50:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Jeeze John -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:29:27 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Divide and conquer. NT -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:13:17 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:44:51 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- The saddest thing -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:12:01 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- FA,why not step down?Otherwise,I'm outa here... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:04:10 (GMT)
__ bill -:- a Joe post from july 9 2000 -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:00:36 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- FUCK THAT! WE NEED A NEW FA -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:48:53 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Banning Jim is not the solution to the problem -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:10:20 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- A possible solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:27:44 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- A question, FA -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:57:20 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Big Mistake. Might as well ban all of us! -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Well said, Tonette. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:54:54 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- LG bastards already celebrating -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- correction -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ Sonny Glade -:- Well well, what have we here then? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:52:07 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The Reverend will be pleased -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:22:27 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:03:33 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- unbelievably IDIOTIC FA -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:49:25 (GMT)
__ Coach -:- Grow up -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:30:17 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- I partially agree -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:41:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Coach -:- Any way you cut it, you're out of order. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Am I? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- Whatever -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:13:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Exactly coach administrate not pontificate -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:36:36 (GMT)
__ Nigel and Moley -:- Banning Jim? Well we are out of here too. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ Steve M -:- Steve M - this is my last post too -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Banning Jim? Well I'm out of here too. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:48:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Please email me the URL -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:04:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SF -:- Please email me the URL - me too Pat -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:51:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- This is sad, the only winner is pukeraji NT -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- My last post and my email address -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:53:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Henry -:- Will miss you -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gina (in the gallery) -:- Pat, thanks for being kind to this newcomer... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 03:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I will sorely miss you! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:05:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Larkin -:- My Last Post... -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Very Eloquent, Thanks nt -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodnight -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- As your former assistant FA -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:40:25 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Hmmm, I had just posted this to Katie below.. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:36:40 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Kant, Hume, Descartes, Spinoza He Isn't -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:51:42 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- He isn't even as good as Hallmark cards NT -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:07:20 (GMT)

salam -:- EV Australia new website -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:29:21 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- EV Australia new website -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- EV Australia new website -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 07:10:33 (GMT)

Timmi -:- ACIM post and Sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 16:55:46 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Sunday, Bloody Sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:05:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Sunday, Bloody Sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:07:50 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- ACIM post and Sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:03:27 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- ACIM post and Sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:10:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- ACIM post and Sunday -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 19:43:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- What was it really about? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:07:48 (GMT)

Helen -:- Holy shit -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 14:37:50 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Why didn't you just email me then, Helen? LOL NT -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:25:49 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Why didn't you just email me then, Helen? LOL NT -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:33:55 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Helen, how can you STAND AOL? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 15:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Helen, how can you STAND AOL? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:32:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Not the point, Helen -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:21:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Hi, Helen -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- Hi, Helen -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:04:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- RIGHT on, Mike n//t -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:00:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hi, Helen -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Helen, Songcatcher is wonderful. /nt -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:48:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Helen, Songcatcher is wonderful--I agree -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:39:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, Songcatcher is wonderful--I agree -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 03:12:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Do I get to respond a bit or what? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 19:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Do I get to respond a bit or what? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:37:17 (GMT)

Jim -:- You guys surprised me a bit today -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 05:28:23 (GMT)
__ bill -:- I thought it was a great find. Thanks for that..nt -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:57:46 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Sounds like you need something that you crack on. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:20:51 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi Sandy -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Hi Steve -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:50:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi Sandy -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hi Steve -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 19:38:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi Sandy -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hi Steve -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:41:12 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- I have an old glossy little brochure around here -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:39:14 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- I posted that interview last year -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:17:19 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- WHAT?? oooops! NT -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:47:43 (GMT)
__ __ LOL -:- write to the webmaster with your suggestion -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 14:25:29 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- What are you surpised at us for? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 06:05:33 (GMT)
__ __ Carlos -:- Please quote/paraphrase me acurately -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 11:27:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- It's a matter of degree, isn't it, Carlos? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:08:50 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh, Jer, it's no biggie -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 06:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- just another smoking gun -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Double Sheesh nt -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 12:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jim, we all remember that shit . We aren't premies -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:29:38 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:39:41 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The now infamous miraclelurker thread
Message:
I must be psychic, I thought that the Miraclelurker exchanges were pushing this forum too far and lo it has since imploded. I would like to repeat my message to that thread in the hope that everyone can stop and get some perspective here.

Start repeat

I would like to quote yet another great master - Gandhi who said
'an eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind'
As a fellow human being, I sincerely ask you all to not step over the edge on this issue. Doing so simply plays into the hands of you know who.

It is difficult to build a community based on something negative which is what EPO basically is - and then to sustain it. The negativity is so destructive.

You guys have clearly been around each other for a while now and old fashioned human differences are dominating your minds.

Self destruct is not a good idea for this forum and you guys are doing exactly the opposite of the sentiments that motivate you to be here in the first place.

It seems to me as a noninvolved outsider to 'the situation' that all those involved bear a little responsibility here. Difficult as it may be, you will all be better off digging a bit deeper and finding some way to tolerate each other amicably.

If we did not have weaknesses or deficiencies of character we would all be perfect masters and you guys know what that can lead to.

I recommend Monty Pythons - the life of Brian. Take a break and have a laugh.

Mark.

End repeat


Its well known that e-mail communiications lack all sorts of human cues that are part of our 'wetware' communications and thus they are prone to causing the on-line version of road rage.

Its really a pity to bust this community up when the protagonists could each agree to back off and attempt to coexist. Today may be the last opportunity to salvage the community.

To be specific:

Jim - your point is made and understood. Send Brian a lets let bygones be bygones e-mail and offer to be a little more circumspect in your approach to your fellow human beings involved in running the site.

Brian - You have been provoked into taking a position that you probably regret. Take back your words to the forum. As webmaster you can set out the limits of the forum in a more PC manner and it is your right and obligation to do this as you are legally accountable for the forum.

Katie - You made your complaint about Jim quite clear and understandable. You are allowing one bad relationship to end what is clearly many good relationships that you have here as well as an activity that you believe in. You are upset and are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Agree to come bacck if the situation can be resolved.

JHB/FA - I suspect that you feel that it was either Brian and Katie or Jim so you are in a bad position here. Was what Jim did really a hanging offence? Offer to reinstate Jim and try to build a bridge between him and Brian so that they can at least coexist with each other. Then reassure the users that you will not wave the big stick except under dire circumstances that involve real legal issues or real threats to the existence of the forum.

Pat and the quitters - If all of the above happens, come back.

Down the line, you will all regret that things ended this way. A lot is being sacrificed because you guys are all in your own way doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons. Given the intelligence, wit and insight that is usually on display in this forum, I know for sure that you are all smart enough to be able to back down a bit and resolve this unemotively so why not have the courage to try one last time.

As I say, the positions have all been clearly made and understood. There is no benefit now in continuing to try to score points at the expense of everything else.

Good luck,

Mark.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:48:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Answering Mark
Message:
Dear Mark - (I am not sure if you are Mark A, or another Mark)

Someone e-mailed me and told me about your post. I wanted to address what you said about me. It may appear as if I am 'cutting off my nose to spite my face', but that is not what I am doing. The problem I am having is that the things said on this forum about me (and about Brian - he IS my husband, after all), are making me feel really bad, and that is beginning to affect the rest of my life. I have been alternating between fighting back, and crying for hours. I hope you can see that I need to get away from the conflict here for my own good. Yes, I do believe in the ultimate purpose of this forum, but I don't think I'm indispensable to it, and I don't think my posting on the forum should come before my own well-being. If I can't function, what good am I going to be anyway.

You made some suggestions about what Jim, Brian, the FA, and the forum 'quitters' should do. Your suggestions are appreciated, but I think they would be difficult to implement without an impartial mediator. And I didn't get the idea that you, yourself, were volunteering to act as a mediator - and no one else has offered either. I don't see that this situation will be easily worked out without one.

That's all - I'm taking off. Hope you - or someone else - will take my suggestion about mediating seriously.
Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 06:08:23 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Sinking the boat
Message:
I think you're right about email being a bad way to try to communicate with strangers, and the forum is pretty much just 'public' email.

Your comments about me are pretty good, and I thank you for taking the time to share them. I'll let the others speak for themselves.

I could have chosen better words below. Seems like I say that a lot. Maybe I'll never learn to soften my points.

Jerry made a comment below about it being unfair to criticise Jim here when he isn't in a position to respond.

But was it 'fair' that when Jim was here speaking that he gave no thought to the problems that his words presented to this site's welfare? Or that as a result of the problems that uncaring posters presented to the site that I spent much of today deciding whether or not to shut this forum down entirely?

I just got email from someone who said, 'Just as I have continually showed my support for your work, I feel I must support it further, by rebelling against what I see has gone awry and it's negative effects on your hard work.'

She was writing to request that her Journey be taken offline. She went on to say that she was opposed to the banning of someone who had been such a thorn in Maharaji's side. I removed her Journey, but I had to shake my head in wonder at her thinking.

Like I said in the thread below, I blocked Jim 2 years ago from another online forum. As angry as he was at me he never asked that his Journey be removed from the site!

How can removing content from anti-Maharaji websites because you don't like the webmaster or you don't like the FA on a forum possibly make up for Maharaji not currently being irritated by Jim on this forum? Is he less a fraud?

When premie websites springing up all over the internet that are packed with lies, why would anyone want to use this site in any way that didn't first take into account whether or not they were jeopardising what so many people have contributed to keep available?

So yes, I need to work on my words. But if the EPO boat goes down it doesn't matter what was ever said on any of its forums, or who won the fights. There'll be no site, no content, no Journeys, no forums, no archives and no trace.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:12:08 (GMT)
From: technicality
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sinking the boat
Message:
I assume since you are so concerned with e-mails rights that you had PERMISSION to post a direct quote from an e-mail someone sent you and belittle it publically? And no doubt the global well being of the site was at risk for you to do such a thing?
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:25:30 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: technicality
Subject: Sinking the boat
Message:
I assume since you are so concerned with e-mails rights that you had PERMISSION to post a direct quote from an e-mail someone sent you and belittle it publically?

I found it in my own mailbox.

I either had permission from the sender, or had notified the sender that I was going to post all or a portion of it, or else I didn't identify the sender of the email that was addressed to me.

If that wasn't the case, would you object to it happening on any moral or legal basis? Did you object at the time?

You don't like me. Maybe I've given you reason to feel that way.

Do you object to it being done here based only on whether or not you like the person who did it?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:49:27 (GMT)
From: technicality
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sinking the boat
Message:
Those are all very good reasons. So nice that you were allowed to post your responses.

Funny that one in an offical role would assume I do not like him simply because I questioned his methods.

You never did explicitely state that you had permission however.

But as you illustrated with Jim, you are best at debating with a silenced opponent.

Sure, getting rid of Jim protects the Forum from him.

Now who is going to protect it from you?

You've admitted error. You've admitted your are not comfortable in an authoratiative role.

Why continue to subject yourself to it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:03:24 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: technicality
Subject: Sinking the boat
Message:
You never did explicitely state that you had permission however.

You didn't refer to any particular email, so I can't tell you for a fact. I've posted email that was sent to me many times over the years. I did that a few weeks ago, but I believe in that instance the email came from a premie whose name I simply left out of the post.

I don't always have permission. I've tried to level the field by either leaving out the person's name or notifying them so that they could respond to my having posted it. I think that's fair, but there are plenty of things that I've done that others believe aren't fair, and they may be right.

You've admitted error. You've admitted your are not comfortable in an authoratiative role. Why continue to subject yourself to it?

That's a fair question to ask. I'll address it here in a few days. If you want to ask me any questions about it then, I'll try to answer honestly.

I don't think that just because my intentions were 'good' in my view, that I always made my case for them in the right way. I take the blame for that.

You and I don't know each other, although we may have communicated in the past. I've fucked up at times. That's the plain simple fact. The archives document it, I am not proud of it, I don't want to repeat those mistakes, and it's not like you'll believe me if I lie to myself that I didn't do it in front of you.

Maybe I'll learn from it. That was the reason that I first started posting on the forum - to learn about myself and try to figure out why on earth I ever believed that a 13-year-old boy from India was the Lord. The original topic on Forum 1 went something like, 'Where former devotees can discuss 'what in the world hit us'!' Scott Perry wrote that, but it summed up my personal involvement.

I wish that I had taken a different tone in the thread below this one. I'm not sure what I hope will result from doing that, but I do know that I am never happy with the actual result it brings. Maybe writing to you like this will finally drive that lesson home to me. If so, then I get to use that lesson to make a different choice in the future and get a different result from it.

I think that what Jim did was wrong - I don't think that Jim is wrong. Jim is just Jim. I think that many things that I've done here and elsewhere were wrong. Both of us could justify our actions based on our actual intentions. Both of us could repeat our actions based on those justifications. I don't see the point of doing that anymore.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:43:48 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Very honest post Brian (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:35:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Bollocks, Brian. FA please ban me.
Message:
You said: ''Jerry made a comment below about it being unfair to criticise Jim here when he isn't in a position to respond.''

Yes, it is unfair and I will be reposting your message and my reply on the Free Expremie Forum where Jim will have the opportunity to rebut it.

You said: ''Or that as a result of the problems that uncaring posters presented to the site that I spent much of today deciding whether or not to shut this forum down entirely?''

Hear that FA? There goes your bailiwick. You can always delete this post and ban me if you don't like what I'm saying.

Brian said: ''But if the EPO boat goes down it doesn't matter what was ever said on any of its forums, or who won the fights. There'll be no site, no content, no Journeys, no forums, no archives and no trace.''

Bollocks. Everything on this site had already been saved elsewhere and is ready to be put online tomorrow maybe not with the famous custard screen but you know what I mean.

You think you have control but you are deluded. All you have control over on the net is what you put your name to. And come to think of it the only name you've ever put to anything is ''Brian.'' I think that there are a couple of million Brians in the USA alone.

And FA you are now totally in control of your forum. I hope you enjoy MK's posts more than mine. Those of us who have no desire for any sort of control are out of here. Please ban me.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:56:52 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Bollocks, Brian. FA please ban me.
Message:
Katie and I talked during the day about what to do if John chose to do nothing. Taking the forum offline was our first choice.

Everything on this site had already been saved elsewhere and is ready to be put online tomorrow maybe not with the famous custard screen but you know what I mean.

Sounds like a plan. Now you only have to find someone willing to do some actual work and take responsibility for the actions of the 'community' that has already put this site at risk.

You've posted your position that you hold 'vindication' of Bazza above protection of this site. Now is your chance to take that same risk for whoever wanders in.

My bet is that you aren't willing to do it yourself, Pat.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:24:55 (GMT)
From: Sonny G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: She was spot on eh Pat? MK I mean
Message:
<<< I hope you enjoy MK's posts more than mine.>>>

Yea many people do, including me. I think she sees things much more clearly and intelligently than you do and she certainly saw your demise coming! Wonder what's next. MK?
Sonny

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:30:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sonny G
Subject: She was spot on eh? MK I mean - oh yes, SG
Message:
You anonymous spiders will be crawling all over this joint soon spinning your little lies. Have fun trying to stop the damburst of truth on the rest of the net. Good luck and bon appetite. Are you also posting from Australia? I thought all the poisonous spiders had been eradicated from civilization.

PS FA Have fun dealing with creeps like this.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:16:38 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You still here Thelma?
Message:
Might have guessed. FEPF isn't quit the full quid is it?

he he

What a lovely 'name' you have dear, I must think up one like that for my ever so 'funny' posts.

fucking hypocrite

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:37:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Your gallstones are showing David - NT
Message:
h
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:52:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The limits of bourgeoise control on the Web
Message:
... have been very carefully explained to Brian. Sadly, he didn't get it.

Brian, you are not a small shopkeeper. You are landed gentry and need to understand how to behave like a gentleman when about your estate.

It was here before you, and would have been here long after you, had you understood the importance of acting in trust for all the people who depend on you. Sadly, your own concepts have gotten in the way of the need to act for the common weal.

That has destroyed what you inherited. But you do not own the information here, and you will learn the hard way that you have nothing but your name on a piece of paper. That, and a hobby that will gradually lose its meaning.

Your prize is crumbling to ashes in your grasp.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:39:59 (GMT)
From: Deborh
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Sometimes, I wish I could be as calm as you.../nt
Message:
You argue like a gentleman. I could pick up tips from you.

But I'm sure you appreciate the differences.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:21:41 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Deborh
Subject: Vive la difference !!
Message:
Thanks Debs,

but it's not really my fight, I've just been privileged by circumstance to join! That does give me a degree of distance, of separation. It would be a lot easier for me to walk away than it would be for many. I don't mean from here, I think I'll be out of here too, place has little meaning on the web, but I mean from the struggle to stop m.

You have been able to be a lot more forthright, and, I would say, in some ways honest, in expressing your position than I have felt able to be. I am grateful that you have expressed yourself in no uncertain terms against cult apologists and m-bots alike.

I think Glasser made a very unwise choice of people to rip postings from, and in a way that is of some comfort. I'm afraid that otherwise one could all too easily imagine the whole ghastly dance to have been a clever ploy dreamt up by Glassy and Mili.

The initial gambit was, of that I have little doubt. I could be wrong (!) of course, but I do find the opening fugue sounds like a duet of duplicity. 'NiceGuy' complains of a threat to out him to his employer, but no evidence can be urled (not even on Glasser's hate-site under Threats!!). The closest Glasser's got is on his site.

As Katie at least has now realised, Glasser has failed to place the posts he ripped from here in their proper context (a later post called 'Mili = NiceGuy ?' makes that very clear), which makes him reckless or malicious in a libel, the silly arse. If Glasser is acting in common purpose with a documented fraudster like Mili ('NiceGuy') he's an even sillier arse, but then they are both cult victims denying and being amoral for their master.

Sorry, back to the opening fugue, the duet of duplicity. Glasser then posts a hugely offensive diatribe here as 'NotSoNiceGuy' making no effort to cover the fact that the post originates from the same law firm that appears in the whois of his new hate-site.

So far, so nothing. It's a racing certainty that the identity of the author of the hate-site is essentially public knowledge (this is in fact the case, as was demonstated in Chuck Sprague's post to Katie) and those defamed are given the information by the administration here that they need. Thank you Bazza, you did the right thing. And so far, still so nothing. It's the same racing cetainty that Glasser is a silly arse in these matters. In fact, a thorough examination of his hate-site (inside and out! and don't forget the whois and whatever other evidence) is sufficient to confirm this, certainly to someone reading here at the time.

The problems started when Brian freaked, and got worse when Glasser got Brian's regard as a good legal council for a chap in Brian's position. But, to be fair to Brian, maybe he only took Glasser's council because he wanted to believe what Glasser was telling him on the theme of Jim could get your site into trouble. Anything to be shot of Jim, eh, Brian?

Whatever. I don't suppose we'll ever know. That Glasser's observations and arguments were made to receptive ears we can be sure, from Brian's own comments about Glasser. It does seem to me that Glasser's observations and arguments were likely partisan, made as they were by a person in a state of denial about his long term involvement in a pernicious cult.

Not that Brian is a fool or in a Cult, at least as far as I can tell. I should say his congruence of interest with Glasser is not so much political, and likely more because they have common interests in a matter of personal rivalry.

I say, I do think I'm going to miss Jim. I think I'll hang out at Anything Goes from now on.

JohnT
- everyone's gone

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:19:36 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Vive la difference !!
Message:
Why doesn't Brian just come forth! He and Katie went on and on about handling things properly and meanwhile they copped out in the most basest of levels.

If Brian got intimidated by Glasser, why didn't he talk to Jim who I know for a fact because I live in Victoria, a reputable and competent attorney.

Did you notice how quick Heller resolved the Pia defamation. Shit, Pia never even acknowledged his email. But an EV monitor was ON IT. Pronto! Names off the next day.

Maybe I'll see you on AG...right now I want to duke this out. I'd rather have another forum which can it make it's own Agenda. An agenda that supports Maha BigHead ass kicking, the whole way.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:54:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Brilliant John. Ban me FA. NT
Message:
h
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:12:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: john
Subject: PS John meet you at AG. Ban me FA.
Message:
John, I'm repairing to a gentler less intrusive, dictatorial and authoritarian realm run by a true gentleman, Sir Dave. Let's see how many spinning grinning heads we can put in our subject lines. See you on the The Free Expremie Forum
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:16:16 (GMT)
From: EPO Webmaster
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email
Message:
I personally blocked Jim Heller from posting on Forum 3 in 1999. This website is now 2 years older, and the forum is still around. My sole interest is to keep this site online and shielded from the irresponsible actions of those who would jeopardise it for their own selfish purposes.

Those of you who are upset at the FA's recent action are allowing yourselves to be lied to. Jim posted that email as an attempt to discredit me in your eyes. He hinted strongly that he was protecting everyone's right to know what was said about 'you' in the private email from the webmaster of EPO. (And you absolutely don't have that 'right'.)

In fact, Jim was fully aware the whole time that MY email to Charles addressed my feelings about only Jim himself. He knew because he had been given a copy of an email that Bazza had stolen from the FA's own mailbox which was addressed to the FA of Forum 5.

When Jim Heller finally posted on this forum a portion of the stolen email in his possession, he did so to 'discredit' me in your eyes. Had the email in his hands also referred to any of you, he would have posted those portions also to further discredit me.

MY email contained my opinion of Jim Heller. Those who believe that I also spoke about them, and who have been waging a campaign for me to print it online in its entirety, will find their answer in Jim's hands - not mine.

MY email was written in reponse to Charles' having asked me earlier whether Jim Heller represented me or the site as an attorney. I agree for the most part with your criticism that I went past simply denying any legal relationship. If I had to do it over again, I would have toned down my words.

But my sole reason for mentioning Jim Heller by name in MY email was to separate myself and the EPO website from any liability which might result from whatever Jim was emailing to Charles at the time. Jim felt no need to copy his emails to me, and I was unaware of what was being implied in them.

As Jim pursued me around the forum on 'your' behalf, I thought that he had read MY email to Charles. I notified Charles that Jim had possesion of it, and that it had been stolen by Bazza and was NOT given to Jim by me in ANY capacity.

But I looked through my Sent Mail and realised that I didn't copy MY email to the FA's mailbox. I had only sent it to Charles. That meant that if an email was stolen from the FAs mailbox by Bazza, then THAT stolen email came from Charles and not from me - even if it quoted my email in its content.

Until Jim posted 'verbatim' the words in MY email that I had sent Charles, I had no way to prove that a theft had occurred, or that he had a copy of that email in his possession.

Since Jim Heller has just published a portion of a stolen email from Charles on a forum hosted by this website, I have since notified Charles of that fact.

I have also notified him that Bazza has a copy. Should Charles wish to pursue legal action against either of these two people, I will fully and willingly cooperate.

Those of you who believe that this website is your private reserve to use as a launching pad for whatever illegal or immoral activities you may choose, or who support and fully justify these actions as being in 'YOUR' best interest, are not welcome on any forum hosted on this website.

My choice is simple:

The offending posters go
or the forum goes
or the website goes.

This website is NOT going as long as I have any say in the matter. And you have absolutely no say in whether or not I have that say.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:47:46 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: EPO, Jim Heller, and the TRAITOR email to Glasser
Message:
I'm glad you have found a LOOP-HOLE to blame Jim--Has your penis grown back! YOU had no right (well, actually you did have a right and a very little penis shrinking incentive) to send that email condemming one of our own while the fuckin Glasser dickless wannabe attorney hides behind his rimmend glasses holding his dick in his hand while getting you to turn the house onto itself.

Your arguments are selfish and insignificant. Stop trying to convince us about morality. Jim didn;t steal it, it was already stolen. You fuckin liar. He just published it. And you, JHB fought all week because YOU were guilty and scared shit less that we'd see you for the fuckin insecure wimp that YOU are.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:34:01 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: Intensity of passion
Message:
The intensity of passion generated here to bring the truth to light re: M&K has been transfered on to an ego squabble and blown out of proportion. I for one would like to see Jim, Brian, Katie and JHB go back to their corners while their trainers patch the cuts around their eyes and call this fucking debacle a draw.

To say it another way, someone has put a penny on the tacks and derailed this train. I personally don't give two shits about who put the penny on the tracks, who stole the penny from who or whether the penny was face up or face down. The train is derailed and needs to be set right. Who of the agrieved parties are going to do the right thing and call this fucking thing a draw?

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 04:43:31 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Intensity of passion
Message:
Richard:

Who of the agrieved parties are going to do the right thing and call this fucking thing a draw?

Well it won't be Jim that's for sure, so I guess it'll have to be those wimps Katie and Bryan. Personally, I don't care if I ever see another post by Jim about anything. Like that's news, huh? The issues with Bryan, and his attitude about how the site is, or ought to be, run really have to be kept separate from this ongoing animosity concerning the Hellered One. Mixing them is *real* unhealthy, like chocolate cake with battery acid. Common sense works.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:35:32 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Always appreciate your steady approach /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:54:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I will - and already have, Richard
Message:
I can't stop anyone from trashing me personally on this forum, but I can stop posting and reading here. I mean after all, if I'm non-functional as a result of dealing with attacks, what good am I to the forum). In case you didn't read my posts about that, that is what I plan to do.

The problem I faced - and why I got into the fight with Jim - is that he wasn't able to let the issue of Brian's and my relative competence at handling the situation with Charles drop. I repeated this many times in my posts.

Anyway, I feel stupid keeping posting to say I'm leaving but it doesn't seem like anyone is listening, and you and others are still posting about me as if I'm right in there fighting.

Katie
(on tranquilizers - snicker)

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:16:27 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sorry Katie, I stand corrected
Message:
Sorry Katie. I tend to skip the intramural squabbles and I haven't followed the details so closely. I did see that you were flamed but didn't realize you are withdrawing - only for awhile, I hope. Seems like a healthy thing to do. I hope this debacle is temporary and the Forum continues to be used wisely. As I said, the intensity needs to be directed at M&K and not each other. If there is some greater good in this mess, I don't see it. It does point out the difficulty in maintaining the Forum, but it is frustrating for many of us to see the potential of the Forum wasted on this. What doesn't kill the Forum may make it stronger, I suppose. At the very least, it points out how things operate in the real world in contrast to the Disney-esque whitewash portrayals on the cult sites.

Sorry again for unfairly tossing you into the metaphorical slammer. I do appreciate your efforts, steady attitude and cheers of encouragement.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:01:27 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: tragic
Message:
Dear Brian,

I'm not really sure just what is going on with all of this, but it seems pretty tragic. And it seems strange that you would support Glasser - who has mounted a web-site designed to descredit your own.

All I can think is that Elan Vital must be very pleased with recent events.

I personally feel that the forum has been contaminated by EV lawyers.

Bye.

Abi

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:06:30 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Something about lawyers
Message:
Hi Abi,

I guess you're right.

There is something wrong with these guys, when they can't leave their persona and don't behave like anybody else ....

Don't worry, they'll get tired of their fights, or take them somewhere else.

JM

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:19:13 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: something about a holy war
Message:
Dear J-M,
actually I think the EV lawyers are only just starting to become proactive.

It has been made very clear to me by Elan Vital that they consider this to be a war. Maharaji has even said this publically. EPO and affiliated people are understood to be the enemy. This is a holy war.

I think the most effective strategy is the Combat one.

take care

Abi

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:28:56 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: You mean Jihad just started ???? Or Krishna?
Message:
Great !!!!!

The master will be like Krishna, driving his chariot on the battlefield, giving k in the middle of the fight !!! All prophecies come true !!

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:37:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: Ho! Ho! Very satirical, FA
Message:
FA,

Regarding my strange sense of morals Anyone who thinks that the ex-FA had any rights over publishing that email, has a strange sense of morals, it is quite normal to regard the recipient of a mail as being its owner, and not the sender. That's why you can't get back a letter once you've given to the postal service.

A corporation is a single legal entity so all the info belongs
to it anyway. You are on very dodgy ground extapolating from that to the current situation. I for one was not aware this place was regarded (ludicrously!) as a private fiefdom.

Nothing was stolen. Information was divulged, that's all. I really dislike your slur, the poor analogy and unneccessarily emotive use of English here.

To my mind, it is secrecy that's needs justification. There was a failure to be accountable, open and transparent. And the whistle got blown.

Jolly Good Thing too, I say.

So ban me.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:34:26 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: Melodramatic bullshit
Message:
and Jim posted a harmless one liner to charles. Yeah theres gonna be a guge litigation .Get real , who do you think youre conning?

sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:31:21 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: What's wrong withe me? I can't understand all this
Message:
and its intricacies .....

I don't doubt the legitimacy of these fights and the importance of the issues. But why fight here ?

Can't we have another place for this ?

I didn't have the time to read all the details, and don't have the time to do it now. I guess many people are in the same situation.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:16:02 (GMT)
From: A Professional Eye
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email
Message:
Please excuse my nondeplume. If I post under my normal handle I doubt what I have to say will be taken seriously.
Jim Heller has willingly exposed this forum, its then FA and Webmaster to the prospect of litigation on the basis of transgression of Privacy laws. Simple
I have watched this saga unfold with some interest. It's about power, control and influence (Heller) vs reality (Federal Laws)
I cannot believe that people are so emotionally involved so as not to see what potentially could befall this site.
As you are probably well aware it is of little consequence to me.
But I would advise that those bleating loudest to consider the options. Allow Heller to play his high stakes game and risk the whole box and dice (And I can assure you ,unless this site is heavily funded , that is the case) or stay within the realms of decency...And the LAW. That was the choice of the Webmaster and FA.
Will you put your money where your mouths are?Some how I doubt it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:08:48 (GMT)
From: So who are you?
Email: None
To: A Professional Eye
Subject: Brave words, indeed.
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:36:12 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: A Professional Eye
Subject: Fucking tripe APE (nt)
Message:
zzzzz
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:16:40 (GMT)
From: A Flea in your Ear
Email: None
To: A Professional Eye
Subject: Some friendly advice from APE.
Message:
APE said: ''Allow Heller to play his high stakes game and risk the whole box and dice (And I can assure you ,unless this site is heavily funded , that is the case) or stay within the realms of decency...And the LAW. That was the choice of the Webmaster and FA. Will you put your money where your mouths are?Some how I doubt it. ''

Sounds more like intimidation and disinformation than friendly advice, APE.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:59:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: A Flea in your Ear
Subject: Okay, I posted as Flea, Ban me FA - NT
Message:
k
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:56:08 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email
Message:
That really sucks.

Aren't too worried about charlies well being than people on this forum or websites. This place is fucked big times. good luck in keeping the peace.

Hasta la vista baby.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 03:13:45 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: EPO, Jim Heller, and stolen email
Message:
He hinted strongly that he was protecting everyone's right to know what was said about 'you' in the private email from the webmaster of EPO. (And you absolutely don't have that 'right'.)

I have to disagree. If somebody is badmouthing me behind me back, I think I have every right to know, and hats off to anyone who fills me in.

This website is NOT going as long as I have any say in the matter. And you have absolutely no say in whether or not I have that say.

Fuck you, Webmaster. Your totalitarian tone is becoming a little too much to accept. I just laughed at Wango Tango at LG for celebrating that F5 was going down the tubes. Now I'm wondering if he might be right. I, personally, am not interested in continuing to participate at a website run by a dictator. Take your website and shove it up your ass!

And one other thing, Mr. Webmaster. How convenient for you to state your case against Jim now that he's been bound and gagged and can no longer defend himself.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:54:44 (GMT)
From: Dale Carnegie
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: read my book yet? I think not
Message:
Yes call me chickenshit for anonymizing. Who wouldn't be intimidated after your post?
Ever heard of the big fish in a little pond symdrome?
Well you just did. Grow up.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:47:27 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Dale Carnegie
Subject: Hi Dale, LOVED your book...
Message:
... it should be required reading in every highschool, it's a timeless classic.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:41:27 (GMT)
From: LOL
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: EPO, Brian ?, E-Mail
Message:
My choice is simple:

The offending posters go
or the forum goes
or the website goes.

This website is NOT going as long as I have any say in the matter. And you have absolutely no say in whether or not I have that say.

Why don't you just step down?

You stated on AG you don't understand anonymizers.

You state in this post that you've 'lost' e-mails.

You state above that when it comes down to it you will turn from your responsibilities to ex-premies (copyright our Journey's dude) and make certain ex'es know you will side with the premies if it doesn't fit in your 'realm' or 'vision' of Web Maestro.

Oh, and as far as Jim Heller stealing e-mails. Well.... you have access to most, if not all e-mails to EPO and then of course there is the background round-robin of e-mails that you may not have the access to on the machine but certainly could pick up juicy tidbits during say... 'Pillow Talk'.

You are so oligarchical. Take all your bag of tricks and start a 'Brian the Oligarch' or 'Oligarchs.org... Web Site somewhere.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:21:20 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: EPO Webmaster
Subject: Keep the site, Get rid of the Forum(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:34:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: dumb idea Daneane...no way.....nt
Message:
dshsdfg
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:42:28 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I've been flamed, ban Bill.
Message:
Why should such vital, wonderful information on this site wonderfully maintained by J-M and Brian be affected negatively by on-going 'dramas' on the Forum?

Other than thanks for your thoughtful feedback. You really backed your statement.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:04:27 (GMT)
From: bill-ok, it's a lovely
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: idea, but then I would not get to read you..nt
Message:
sdfgsdf
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:42:08 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Hey - how bout no rules and hosted chat rooms
Message:
It might not fit the criteria of this forum but I like the idea of chat rooms with themes that are hosted. the host would have the discretion to flame,delete and facilitate.

Ie- 'Gladiator arguing '
'Is there god beyond the 70s'
'Polite Persevering Persuasion'
'mediation beyond knowledge'
ect

Zelda
} who has critisized Jim in emails to premies and exs.
} may have done what he did
} knows most of his moves are orientated towards a 3rd party/audience.
} Knows he has helped many a prem to become exs
and disagrees with him bieng banned
} but thinks his donnybrook style has its place - but preferrable on his own terms so it doesnt vaccinate ittself into every thread
} thinks this whole situation is a rubix cube of errors and no one is to blame

} whis is alsoshocked to hear the FA congratulated ittself as a poster
(what is UP with that????!!)

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:22:46 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: the room exists--EPOF5, talkcity. i made one.
Message:
if that's what you want, use it. I find this whole contest self destructive and obnoxious. if this were a daycare center, everyone would be quelled and sent to the trouble chairs for Time Out to think long and deep about their actions and their words and their posturing here.

when this forum goes down, everyone gets anxious and runs around in email and AG fretting about what has happened to it and whether will come back up. a thing so sought after should not be destroyed like a disputed sand castle in a bully's tantrum. maybe turning it off for a week would be more like the Time Out that would force everyone to reconsider how much this place means to them to have.

you all have brian's email address. some of you have Jim's. you can use them to inform them of your views and sentiments as you digest what you have learned here.

I adjure all of you to walk away from this contentious scene, and make yourselves take the Time Out-- and to not come back until you can approach it without getting inflamed and out of control.

but the chat room is already created. i made it when the forum went down the last time. it's at talkcity and i named it EPOF5 and right now it has no operators, passwords or hosts. it';s just there.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:41:37 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Monologue
Message:
whis is also shocked to hear the FA congratulated ittself as a poster (what is UP with that????!!)

There were more than a few people who knew that John was the FA here. When I saw it I just figured that he was making a joke. I almost responded to JHB to stop sucking up to the FA.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:03:28 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: that little cngrts seems to be ignored by mst. NT
Message:
tsk tsk tsk
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:09:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I'll repeat my explanation
Message:
Yes I know it was a silly thing to do, and for those who knew I was FA, yes, it was an in joke. It had just occurred to me that I never respond to posts by the FA, and some astute reader might notice and surmise I was the FA because of that.

No big deal.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:17:49 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I'll repeat my explanation
Message:
As far as I m concerned nothing anybody does surprises me - because I may act the same under the heat.
I am just surprised not many people pounced on it.
it was dreadful though- and a shock to my sensibilities.

Not everyone has a historical map as a reference- to me everyone is on the screen and I take it at face value.
so FA and JHB were not the same person to me until that day.

take care

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:32:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Oh Christ, I'll post it then
Message:
There's no good having a rift between ex-premies. So if you want, The ANYTHING GOES Forum can instead be The EX-PREMIE Forum. All it needs is a change of title.

Me being too preoccupoed with real life, I will not censor it nor ban anyone. Just as I haven't since the forum got going three years ago. It's there if you want it and since it's already paid for, it's fine. If the bandwidth goes up then I'll let people know if there's any more to pay.

If people use it as an ex-premie forum, I will archive posts and put them on a website for people to read, just as is done for this forum. Personally, I think having two ex-premie forums is divisive. But we have to deal with reality and reality isn't always what we want. If there is no need for this other ex-premie forum, then I'll abandon the idea.

Hey, it's just a name change (he said).

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:37:44 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Oh Christ, I'll post it then
Message:
Hey David,

I was looking in the archives earlier today to find the one from when Jim was blocked from Forum3.

When I found it I'll be damned if I didn't see a post at that time from you containing the exact same sentiments, along with a link to AG!

Too funny... :)

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:47:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Oh Christ, I'll post one more message then
Message:
Chuck and I set up a forum before we came on board the expremie forum. It never got used because we started enjoying this place and it is probably inactive by now. We called it the Unpremie Forum because we wanted it to be for everybody not just PWKs or exes. You can use that name if you want.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:56:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: We've got forums coming out of our ears
Message:
Too late. I mean it is too late because I've got to go to bed and I've already just changed the name to The free EX-PREMIE forum.

I'm not going to change it again now at this late hour to your clever name, even though it is better than mine.

Oh God, what have I done? Are we gong to have the battle of the forums now? There's lots here for the Reverend John Hammond-Smyth. Enough for a year's sermons.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:43:20 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sounds encouraging Sir Dave (nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:16:35 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the premie within(?)
Message:
Very upsetting things going on! I am not involved in this so I will keep it that way.
This whole thing stirred up some old magical thinking, that the so called 'power' of rawat was somehow influencing the well being of the forum.
This is nonsense of course.
But in a more realistic way it could partially be true: we exed, but is the passion most of us have about some subjects, even after being out for years or decades, not an indication that there is still a premie hiding somewhere inside of us? Not the premie we used to be , but more snakelike like some premie posters here. That sometimes the impulses get taken over by this dissiociated part of ourselves.

It stirs up the fear that one time, when we are in our 80's or 90's when our mental faculties decline, we find ourselves singing arti in the nursing home , like if all the individual part of our life has turned insignificant, already forgotten by our failing memory.....

'bolesrisatgurudevmahahrajjikijai!!!!!!'

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:49:10 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Dutch euthanasia to save us from
Message:
singing arti in our nursing home hahahhaha

Now ....as an EU citizen I can just pop over to Holland.....settle down there...register with a doctor....and BINGO.....Jai guru dev mahamorphine .....your glory fills the world.....protec.....

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:20:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: things that go 'bhole shri!!' in the night...
Message:
brrrrrrr...you actually gave me the chills. And an LOL that lasted longer.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:43:13 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is the FA really a premie?
Message:
Silly thought I know. It occurred to me though that someone following agya could infiltrate over the long term...diss Rawat left right and centre.....and work his way into a position of power. Sort of like a Russian or Latvian spy.

Then .....STRIKE WHERE IT REALLY HURTS.

After 4 plus years of careful dedicated ex-premie work ....this forum could turn into a nice sugary new age premie forum with the odd ex tolerated if he/she behaves.

What a filthy devious mind I've got :)))))

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:02:41 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Funny kinda. More shit for the cesspool.
Message:
We need to resolve this not flame it more.
Do we all believe in democracy? How about a vote?
To ban or not to ban that is the question.
After all is this forum not here for everyone? Katie and Jim included?
Just an idea.

Tonette

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:51:56 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Hey, call me a premie!
Message:
But don't call me a Russian. Not that I have anything against Russians - they just invaded my country, killed a lot of Latvians, forced a lot of others to leave, and occupied the country for 50 years resulting in economic and political disaster. Any Russians reading this - don't take it personally - I know it wasn't you personally who did this.

I was a premie for 25 years. I've never been a Russian.

John
Not a premie

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:43:32 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The parable of the travelers and the Glass
Message:
(Note: The #1 definition of Glass in Thorndike Barnhardt: a hard substance that breaks easily and can usually be seen through)

Once upon a time there was a group of travelers who had just come away from a great battle. There were still skirmishes along the way, and from time to time they had to fight off a remnant of the army they were fleeing from. These travelers were not running away from the fight, they were just looking for a place with some level ground from which they could squarely defend themselves, and call attention to other unsuspecting travelers of the dangers they had fled.

As they traveled, little bickerings arose within their ranks. Each of the survivors had their own individual journey to deal with, yet they all had certain things in common. They all agreed that the cause was a righteous one, but there were many ideas all along the spectrum of how to engage their adversary and make their point.

As they walked along the way, one of them noticed a large Glass lying in the grass. One of them picked it up and marveled at its thickness. Another one, anxious to see the Glass, reached for it and promptly opened a bloody wound on his hand, for the Glass had many sharp pointy edges. The Glass was hypnotic and many cut themselves upon it before they all realized that it was a secret weapon, placed on the path for that very reason: to cut up the travelers and to make them unable to continue their journey and their cause.

One of the bravest warriors, who also happened to be the rudest of the group, received a wound so deep as a combined result of his rudeness and contact with the Glass that he could not fight with the travelers for awhile. All the travelers were sad about this, even the ones who had been treated to the brave warrior's rudeness. They all hoped secretly or openly that this wound would heal soon, and the warrior would be more humble too.

Then one of the travelers suggested that they all set the Glass back down in the grass, where it was lying when they found it, and continue on their way, agreeing with each other to be more cautious before picking up anything else, shiny or otherwise, that might be lying in the grass, for it could very well be a trap.


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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:13:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: The parable of the travelers/Glass- codicil
Message:
'But if we leave it out the way we found it, won't others do as we did and approach it too?' asked on of the travelers.'weren't we taught that if we tripped over a boulder in the road and fell, that others might too? shouldn't we see that it is put in a place where it can't wound anyone else after us?' she asked the group.
'let's find something harder and smash it into bits' said the warrior, for that was his way to deal with most things he encountered.
'no, that's no good' replied one who'd tried it before,'That will just make millions of smaller, deadlier sharp pieces, and spread them over a wider area so they are harder to see and hurt more people.At least in one piece, It's very visible and you can see it from a long way away'

So they pondered.

'Maybe we could bury it' another offered. 'That way, if we could dig a hole for it that was deep enough, we could cover it up with dirt and keep it from being able to cut people after we move on in our journey together'.
The group mulled on this suggestion.'It still might surface again later' one finally commented, after long thought.'It may hurt someone else long after we have left it behind. We must keep thinking. There must be another way'
So the group paced and troubled and questioned themselves some more.
'What if we threw it into deep water?' another said, after hours of thinking.
'It would hurt the creatures who live in the depths' her companion countered.'They are even softer and more prone to injury than we earthy types are. We must be sensitive for them too. We have to find another solution'. she concluded.
And the group contemplated the Glass some more.

Then one got a gleam in his eye and rose, with an air of mischeif and cunning, and walked before the assembled band.
'I just got it' he announced, grinning. 'It's the last thing you would think of, but it's great' he exulted.
The group stared at him, mystified.
'we don't bury it, and we don't smash it, and we don't drown it--we set it on a monument and surround it with symbols of utmost respect, so that anyone who comes this way is afraid to approach it. We can imprison it in a mound of great stones and set a legend at the foot, speaking of its terrible power, and tell all who read it that there is a terrible curse upon it, and that it must not be disturbed, for blood will flow for anyone who disrespects it.'

'What a brilliant idea' cried the warrior.'Isolate it in its own power! Make one and all to shun it!' he mused, oddly pleased at the notion.
'I know where we should place it' spoke the eldest in the party,'let us position it beneath that waterfall over there, so that it is held fast under the stream, and over the years, the ceaseless beating upon its surface will wear down its sharp edges and soften its shape, until it is no longer a threat to anyone.'

The group agreed that this was the best idea of all, and they set about to create a wall around the shard of sharp Glass, of river rocks and sand from the stream, until they had the deadly object securely surrounded and squarely imprisoned under the constant beating of the waterfall. Then a scribe carved out a legend upon a log and set it in the road, warning travelers of the curse of the Glass, and warning one and all not to venture near it until their grandchildren had borne grandchildren.

And when it was done, they gathered up every trace of their stay and set off down the road again, wounded but wiser for the encounter, secure in the certainty that the Passage of Time and the wear of the elements would render the sharp Glass smooth, as they knew it did to all things, including themselves.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:47:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The parable of the travelers/Glass- codicil
Message:
One day many years later, a traveler was washing off some travelling dust standing under the waterfall. As he basked in the sun and romped in the fresh clear pool, he noticed a shiny little object near his toes. He bent down and stuck his head under the shallow water and beheld a beautiful little glass disk.
It was so beautiful that he secured it to a very fine line of fishing line that he had in his backpack. There was a little pinhole in the disk that he strung the line through. It was very smooth and very round and very aerodynamic, as he discovered when he skipped it over the smooth water away from the waterfall. It skipped more times than any other skipping stone he had ever held. He then drew in the line, wrapped it carefully around the little disk, and put it in his inner pocket. This was one skipping stone that he did not want to lose, and he dreamt that night under the moon and the stars and the sound of the rushing waterfall of the big skipping tournament that he was on his way to win.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:49:43 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: The parable of the travelers and the Glass
Message:
I can't imagine what this parable of the glass, er means.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:00:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Is that your tongue in your cheek...
Message:
.........or are ya just happy to see me? 8*)
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:50:31 (GMT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: hey you I've been chronicling this show
Message:
on AG in my own parables - not nearly as traditional as yours.
Stay tuned for a link on a non politcally correct forum near you.
Maybe I'll steal stuff from you. ooopppss did you copyright?
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:55:22 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Who goes there?
Message:
Who is SF, if you don't mind sharing...?
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:57:37 (GMT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: me Selene
Message:
Someone made a joke last week about 'The Selene Factor' so I've been using SF. Less typos that way although I'm sure some will think of some rather interesting other things it could stand for :)
Last post for me again (I've been saying that for two weeks - always on the bleeding edge)
bye
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:01:57 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: An Asshole's exchanges with Charles Glasser?
Message:
My last post here. Here is my Email 'exchange' with Charles Glasser. So ban me, FA. I am gone already.
>>>
MY MAIL:
Dear Charles,
I feel obliged to write to you - in the interests of truth. I know you are an intelligent person (as I am - 1st class degree). I also know you manage to maintain your premie thought processes whilst being highly intelligent. I just wonder how you do that? I'm not being facetious. I just can't figure it out. I also can't figure out how you can have anything but compassion for what you perceive to be the sad, drug-crazed, mentally ill folk on Forum V. Surely this would be the best stance to take, rather thn vitriolic put-downs, if, that is, practicing knowledge has taught you anything about love? If Maharaji is the Lord (or any other highly significant superhuman) then he doesn't need you to defend him - he must be ahead of the game. And - if he isn't - why follow him? Follow me instead - I'm more fun!
Madeleine (ex-premie)

REPLY FROM CHARLES WITH MY RESONSE TO IT (BETWEEN HIS TEXT)::
Dear Charles, Thanks for your reply... I'll respond in between your text...

>To: Madeleine Phillips
>Subject: Re: Truth
>Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Thanks for your note, and for keeping it litehearted.
>It sounds to me like a lot of your issues are about
>preconceived notions, both about Maharaji and
>Knowledge, and indeed about what premies are
>'supposed' to be like.

My issues are about notions put into my head by Maharaji's satsang (that is by what he actually said), of which, believe you me, I heard and read an awful lot, for years. Any ideas I may have about what premies are 'supposed' to be like have come from listening to Maharaji (eg talking about being kind to other people) and Christianity/Buddhism and various other religious doctrines, all of which preach compassion and love (and some of which teach non-judgment). That is why I take issue with your judgmental attitude to some FV posters. Or are you implying, by your reply to me, that the practice of knowledge brings NO more love, wisdom or compassion or any other 'spiritual' attributes into a premie's heart? If that is the case, it's a pretty solipsistic affair,don't you think?
>
>Maybe I got lucky and missed all the premie trips you
>guys laid on each other way back when. I don't know
>about 'lord' or 'superhuman' --I don't know even know
>what that means. It's just another idea that seems to
>have lead a lot of well-meaning people astray.

What do you mean 'laid on each other'? 'Lord' MAY be just an idea.. It probably means zilch. BUT where did we get it from in the first place? In my community we were constantly trying to adjust to M's latest satsang (not to mention agya)... we were not laying that on each other - HE was.

It was M who said, for example 'Guru is greater than God' and 'I have come with more power than ever before' and 'I will establish peace in the world'. What about the lyrics of Arti? What about darshan, and holy breath? What about the knowledge vows ('I surrender the reins of my life to you')? I could go on and on... but I'll leave that to Maharaji himself:

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......'

Was Maharaji lying, Charles…?

>
>I don't think (and never said) that ALL of the folks
>on F5 are mental defectives...just many of the ones
>who seem to be obsessed with something they allegedly
>'quit beliveing in' years and years ago. For many
>people, I know, it's just a fun place to hang out and
>cause some harmless mischief, but there is also a very
>sick and dangerous game being played there.

It's some of the most intelligent folk on FV that are what you call 'obsessed'. They are not willing to let the issues about M's personal life, nor his rescinding of his 'Lord of the Universe' persona, be swept under the carpet. They are, if you will, fighting on the side of right and honesty. Why should they stop? It's a mark of personal integrity and staying-power that they continue. It's hardly a sign of incipient dementia. Would you, for example, brand members of Amnesty International as mental defectives, because they continue to campaign against human rights violations (for years and years, even if they don't believe in torture themselves)?

We 'mental defectives' are people who had up to ten years of M's messianic stance, when we were required to constantly meditate and remember holy name. We were required to devote ourselves totally (not just ashram premies), sidelining all other wordly interests. Let go of ALL attachments and surrender to M’s agya. Give him the lot, basically – and woe betide those who fall by the wayside. Satsang, service and meditation…NOTHING else.

Don't tell me it's just about a nice little hour-a-week Sunday outing to church (with tea and cakes) that we have stopped believing in!

Please elaborate on what exactly you mean by the phrase 'a very sick and dangerous game'.
Why don't you directly address, on your site, EPO criticisms of Maharaji, for example from various sane, heartfelt and articulate Journeys, or Dettmers’ information?

>As for how I 'manage' having a brain and being a
>premie at the same time: it's easy. My brain figures
>out problems, keeps me from driving off a cliff or
>sticking my hand into the toaster. My heart is what
>makes me alive. Maharaji doesn't speak to that part
>of you that helps you make a living or how to play
>guitar. He only speaks to my heart. That's why I
>don't judge whether he drinks/drank/got drunk, and
>other assorted gossip, see?

Where do you feel - what is the organ in your body that generates feelings Charles? If I removed your brain, would you feel anything? Maharaji speaks? If his speech centres (in his brain) were removed, could he speak? With what do you process his words? Are you seriously telling me that you did not use your brain to write to me? If you were using your brain, how can you trust yourself (in your terms) to give anything like an accurate account of Maharaji as he 'only speaks to my heart'. How does your brain know what he is saying?

Your predicament is nothing more nor less than the Western/Platonic mind/body, mind/heart, body/soul split. This articulation of your subjectivity has a longstanding history in Western culture, but it is entirely erroneous.
>
>The trap you fell into was that you let your 'brain'
>(and it's a fine one, I'm sure) try to take hold of
>what Maharaji is about. That's the fatal flaw with all
>the Ex business. You just keep on pecking away at it
>with your ideas...and you're left standing there with
>an empty heart.

What on earth do you mean by the phrase 'you let your 'brain''? Who is the 'me' that did that??? Obviously not my brain. How on earth do you know I've got an empty heart? Is that who I am - my empty heart? If not, what am I? If so, why am I happy?

>I hope, sincerely, that if practicing Knowledge does
>not fill your heart, that you do encounter something
>that does, and that you have the good sense to embrace
>it, and not analyze it to death. By the way, if you
>think Knowledge might have done the trick but all the
>premie B*S* got in the way, let me know...I know a few
>phone numbers you could call. It is never never never
>too late to go within, as long as you have a breath.
>This you can never deny.

Are you implying that any good sense I may have does not come from my brain - as in the familiar phrase 'make sense of .....' Pardon me, but I thought making sense of things was a brain function.
So you do think (contra-Maharaji) that there ARE other things apart from knowledge that can fill a person's heart? Well - I'm glad because that means you are not thinking that Knowledge is the true Knowledge of God, or that knowledge is THE truth within, or that Knowledge, and only Knowledge, will give you true fulfillment. I thought you couldn't really think that stuff.

Yeh - give me the phone numbers.
>
>Peace to you,
>cg

And to you
Love
Madeleine

NEXT REPLY FROM CHARLES WITH MY RESPONSE (AGAIN BETWEEN HIS TEXT):

Again I'll reply between your text...

>To: Madeleine Phillips
>Subject: what it is and isn't
>Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 07:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Madeleine:
>
>I appreciate your response. Look, for me, Knowledge
>isn't something to debate or deconstruct. It just
>doesn't work that way. You can take my reply apart,
>take Maharaji's words apart, put them back together,
>but where does that take you? I've never gotten a
>clear answer on that.

It takes me to freedom. Is that a straight enough answer for you?
>
>Look, here's where we are. I have something precious
>in my life. You know what I'm talking about. If you
>want to get in touch with it, that's cool. If you want
>to reject it, that's cool too. As you probably know
>by know, you wouldn't be the first 'EX' to decide to
>practice Knowledge again. I've gotten several letters
>to this effect. It's starting to happen a lot these
>days.

No I DON'T know what you're talking about. Why don't you answer my questions AT ALL? Charles, it's sad, but I think you are a lost cause - and you think ditto about me. What sort of a discipline/spiritual practice/non-religious religion (or whatever M's current take on how premies should perceive Knowledge) puts people in such opposing positions? At least you could respond to the long 'Who is Guru?' direct quote of M that I sent you... Why won't you?
>
>I suspect there's a part of you that does want this
>experience again, but I'm no expert, and far be it
>from me to guess what's going on in your heart. If
>you'd like to talk with someone who is better equipped
>to adress your questions, I'll see what I can do about
>it.

Well - you suspect wrong. But put me in touch with those you mention - please.
>
>PS: love your reference to cartesian dualism! As Spock
>would say: 'Fascinating.'

Indeed! But what I said means something - will you take what I said on board? Heart and mind, body and soul. Yours, M.
>
>cg

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:57:44 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: to doggy Charles: I am havin' a great experience..
Message:
Believe it or not, the human being is equipped with a brain - except for occasional factory defects - standard operating equipment.

you wrote:

'The trap you fell into was that you let your 'brain'
(and it's a fine one, I'm sure) try to take hold of
what Maharaji is about. That's the fatal flaw with all
the Ex business. You just keep on pecking away at it
with your ideas...and you're left standing there with
an empty heart.'

Rawatism invokes a fatal flaw for naive people: a premie lobotomy that disconnects and separates the holistic essence and necessity of brain/heart functioning which we normally depend upon for existence in this material realm. For what purpose and to what end? not enlightenment -- but the resulting inability to question or investigate the many contradictions, hypocrisies, lies, abuses and deceptions which have only served to selfishly empower and perpetuate the Rawat clan guru dynasty - a sikh clan which appropriated yogic teachings and has manipulated these teachings for gross materialistic empowerment and riches, while reducing believers to gullible and brainwashed codependents of a dysfunctional Hindu family.

A mind is a terrible thing to lose, Charles. Remember, m. invokes Kabir repeatedly. Well, Kabir wrote that a true saint or perfect master NEVER asks for of accepts money or any material wealth or riches from one's devotees. Chew on that gem, councilor, for starters.

Also, m's and EVI's spin doctoring IS important vis a vis the past, precisely because it reveals a pattern of cheat and deceit -- lies which suckered thousands of people into surrendering their lives and their brains into servitude to Prem Rawat aka the Lord of the Universe aka Greater than God aka the Perfect Master. Also, his personal excesses ARE important in assessing his alleged and self-proclaimed Mastery -- given that he patently denounced drugs and alcohol and addiction to materialism as obstacles on the spiritual path of enlightenment.

At the least, miragey is a fallen yogi. In his culture's own spiritual and hisorical traditions, the sacred scriptures are rife with the examples of fallen and flawed gurus and yogis, who succumbed to the temptations of maya [worldly and sensory illusion]. maha is merely another fallen would-be yogi and a patent greedy master of megalomaniacal materialism. premies are his codependent servants, slave-dogs [i.e. Servant or Slave: 'The servant is the Master's dog' -- quoted from miragey's own dad-guru].

r.e. the demonization of the 'enemy mind': A mind is a terrible thing to have = m. dogma. To prevail in court, even attorneys occasionally have to use their lil' pea brains. So, either abdicate your legal profession and buy the maha lobotomy spiel hook line and sinker, or understand that a healthy, functioning human being uses all faculties of reasoning, discrimination/discernment, and feeling, too.

Frankly, I am feeling Oneness, light and love within -- and experiencing wellness and the natural gift of innate intelligence, too. Freedom from guru serfdom and concepts feels great!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 11:21:25 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Thanks Moley
Message:
An interesting and rather chilling encounter. Thanks for passing it on.

What more can one say?

The most charitable response I can find is that humans love to get stuck, and define a part of the situation as the whole-and then claim all.

Pompous, one-sided, thinly-disguised, high-status, dogma. Oh barf puke groan retch.
love Bryn

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:01:30 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Moldy and warped
Subject: 'So ban me, FA. I am gone already' Really MW?
Message:
Excellent news. That makes six to go, we're almost done.

Unfortunately, your propensity for telling the truth, being what it is, I fear you'll be back with your rather unedifying grunts and splutters. We can only hope you keep your word.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:29:36 (GMT)
From: Artemis
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: 'So ban me, FA. I am gone already' Really MW?
Message:
MK. You are a total arsehole. And who's the royal 'we'??????
You like to be queen for the day???
I assume you are human, though it's hard to tell.
Fuck off you moron.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:58:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: And I still know who you are MK. Ban me FA!
Message:
You and I have a mutual premie acquaintance in Australia, DW.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:45:49 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: SHIT! I'm done, fried, finished, socially Kaput!
Message:
Yes we do have a mutual'acquaintance' in Australia don't we Pat. A premie did you say? That's debatable.

Guess what? We also gotta mutual friend in America!

Malibu to be precise.

Don't crow too loudly about being banned from here. Have you had a good look at Anything Goes, sorry... 'Free Ex-Premie Forum' lately?

No, I'll let you discover the grim truth for yourself.

Next time when I warn you about being a washed up hasbeen...

PERHAPS YOU'LL LISTEN!

hugz
MK

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:06:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Shall I post you address and phone number on AG?
Message:
Yes, our mutual acquaintance is a premie not an ex. Our friendship goes back over 25 years. You couldn't stop yourself from boasting about teasing the exes on FV could you? Well, our ''mutual friend'' is actually one of the industrial strength church ladies who happens to have ethics and thinks that you are a mad Lone Ranger doing disservice to Rev Rawat. That's why I was told. (S)he trust me more than you.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:55:06 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Out the fuckin asshole! You have my email
Message:
What a fuckin piece of work that sick puppy is? Email me...I'll store up evidence of who's who?

Idiot can only be a flaming coward...no substance...just silly dribble about the friend in Malibu...why are they here is Maha BigHead is their friend. Full of shit!

you can tell the loser premies a mile away, can't you. And I, too, have premies in close contact with BigHead and they're NOT HERE cuz they have a premie life.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:38:46 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: No, I'd rather the front page of the NewYorkTimes
Message:
but thanks for asking...

Hey, You HATE industrial strength church ladies remember?

Guess what...So do I!

Blimey you really are spinning in figures of eight.

But look Pat, I was reading ONLY yesterday about how you LOVE playing biffo with premies, it's all good fun and games yes?
You were bragging your head off about us goolies!

Oh I see, you only play if you are two sets to love up and 5-0 in the third. But big confident you didn't want to dabble with soft premies sickening you with their warm fuzzy bullcrap. What's up, is a toekisser with balls and a sharper backhand than you too much to handle?

Come on, your serve pussycat.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 11:23:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Dream on Dave. Er, Muggles.
Message:
You AND that the secret friend in your head Muggles? I bet you'd feel so-o-o honoured. Almost like a darshan, that would be so lovely for you.

You haven't said how long have you had THAT secret friend in your head, have you Muggles? There's no need to be ashamed here, not any more Muggles, not now we understand about you.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:00:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Heeeeeeeeeelp !! My niece is into Osho !!!
Message:
I've just received an email from my niece.
She's just spent a week-end with some of Osho's disciples, and would like to know more about this group.

Anybody knowing a website about Osho/Rajnesh?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:37:08 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: he died of AIDS from sex with his devotees
Message:
after he was run out of america for tax evasion. he died in india. another flaming hypocrit.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:19:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: OK, then I'll advise my niece to use condoms (nt)!
Message:
xxx
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:23:13 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's one....
Message:
I went to the Freedom of Mind site, run by Steve Hassan, but their site is being revamped, so there's no links to anything about Osho/Rajneesh.

Rick Ross' site has some info on Osho:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/rajneesh.html

If that doens't work, go to rickross.com where there's a search engine for the archives at the bottom of the home page. I inserted Osho and the above link is what I got.

Good luck.

M

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:45:43 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Here's more....
Message:
J-M,

Here are 3 results from Google.com search engine.

http://www.sannyas.net/

http://www.osho.org/

http://www.clipper.net/~calder/Osho.html

Good luck,

RR

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 01:51:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Put her in touch with cq. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:13:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: and ...
Message:
Here's a first hand account of his fall (I skimmed it and it sounds fairly standard at this point)
a former follower's account

I crossed paths with one Rajneeshian about 10 years ago. She was really obsessed.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:57:22 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi, again, J-M. A quote from the book I have
Message:
which I've just opened for the first time since my friend gave it to me, the card inside says August 1998, since I am not into tarot or Osho. But here's what it says:

'During the course of thirty years of talks to disciples and friends, Osho would answer their questions, or comment on the teachings of the world's great sages and scriptures. His talks continue to bring fresh insight to everything, from obscure Vedic scripture to the familiar sayings of Jesus. He speaks with equal authority on the Hassids and the Sufis, the Bauls, Yoga, and the Buddhists. Ultimately Osho concentrates on transmitting the unique wisdom of Zen, because, he says, Zen is the one spiritual tradition whose approach to the inner life of human beings has weathered the test of time and is still relevant to contemporary humanity.'

AND I think this is the guy, Osho/Rajnesh, who was 'escorted' out of the state of Oregon, US, some number of years ago, after being charged with all sort of frauds, tax and otherwise. Anyone, is this that guy? He had/has a cult-following, had a 'community' somewhere in Oregon, relocated to India, lots of luxury cars, flower petals strewn by devotees all along his path every step of the way, etc, etc, etc, you know, you know, you know. Or maybe I should say 'devotees strewn all along his path every step of the way.'

Yikes, I hope your niece fares well.
Gina

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:41:09 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hello, go to www.osho.com
Message:
Hello...a couple of years ago I received as a give from a person who is into Osho a set of 'Osho Zen Tarot' cards. This website was listed at the back of the enclosed booklet as www.osho.org, but when I tried it just now the homepage came up osho.com.
Hope this is helpful,
Gina
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:17:37 (GMT)
From: sicul
Email: sicul@gmx.de
To: Gina
Subject: Hello, go to www.osho.com
Message:
You can solve the problem from a wider standpoint

visting http://www.universelle-lehre.de

because Maharaj ji and Osho are some negative examples

of modern gurus ! Are You a seeker of real initiation ?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:08:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: sicul
Subject: What do you mean by * real* initiation ?
Message:
See the light ? Become schizophrenic ?
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:15:29 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: My definitions of a cult
Message:
I came up with these a couple of years back - I realise we have seen a few others posted here and elsewhere, but I didn't altogether agree with those I have read.

But anyway, see how well these fit (a) any group you would already think of as a cult, and then (b) Elan Vital.

A useful exercise for premies, especially?

Then also consider how well these attributes also desribe fascism. The only difference being the cult, lacking in political power, does not have absolute control of you unless, of course, you relinquish your will. Which, perhaps, is why cults encourage us to do precisely that..?

Anyway, for me a cult:

(1) Has a single leader whose authority is not to be questioned, who is

(2) accorded God-like status.

(3) No mechanisms exist within the movement to remove the leader.

(4) Members are encouraged or required to serve the leader.

(5) There will be no dialog between the organisation and similar organisations proposing alternative, or even identical belief systems, albeit with a different father-figure.

(6) It will be claimed (or implied) that the movement's belief/path/lifestyle is the only path to liberation/enlightment/happiness.

(7) Public criticism of the leader will lead to that member's being disciplined, expelled, or at least removed from public events.

(8) Even where the movement claims charitable status, all incoming monies will remain within the cult 'process', or go to the leader. Certainly none will materially benefit people outside the closed loop of current members or prospective future contibutors.

(9) The leader will enjoy a luxurious lifestyle compared to those of his followers.

(10) The internal control structures will be secretive and undemocratic.

(11) Full membership involves a covert initiation ritual, structured to make the new member feel both favoured and indebted.

(12) As far as is permissible within the law, finances will not be open to public scrutiny.

(Other factors, eg. special jargon may be present. I have focused on what I think are the essential ingredients.)

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:12:46 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: forum5god@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself
Message:
This is the hardest post I've ever written on this forum, but in spite of all the reasons why I do not like what I'm doing, I am certain it's the right thing to do.

Jim is henceforth banned from this forum.

The reasons for this are as follows:-

His hounding of Brian and Katie regarding Brian's email exchange with Charles, and Brian's ownership of the EPO website, is, in my judgement, flaming, which is against the rules of this forum.

He published an extract from a confidential email, which had been stolen by someone who had been trusted with access to confidential information. He knew that email had been stolen, and yet he still published it.

His defence of these actions is that what he did was in the public (ex-premie community's) interest, and some exes agree with him. I don't for the following reasons:-

Brian was responding to a confidential email where Charles asked if Jim, who had emailed Charles, legally represented Brian. Brian responded by saying he didn't, and Brian then (unwisely in my view), gave Charles his opinion of Jim. This opinion was well known to everyone who reads here regularly, including all the premie lurkers, so it was no great revelation. But it was given in a private email, and no one had the right to demand it be published here, nor to publish it here against the wishes of Brian and Charles. If there is anyone here who disagrees with this principle, please let me know so that I can avoid emailing you.

Jim became privy to this email because an ex-FA sent it to him while he still had access to the FA mailbox. I misjudged this FA. Thinking about it since, I realise that I understood the culture of confidentiality having worked in an investment bank for nine years, three of which I had priveleged access to the corporate email system. But this ex-FA clearly doesn't understand this principle. Just as I wouldn't have misused the access I had in the bank, I won't misuse the access I have here. Those who think it is OK to misuse that access, please do not volunteer to be FAs. Jim knew that the ex-FA had misused his access, but still believed it was right to publish the email, as long as the ex-FA gave permission! This is bizarre logic. Jim knew that the email had been improperly acquired, but he still published it. Anyone who thinks that the ex-FA had any rights over publishing that email, has a strange sense of morals.

Jim's other defense is that for Brian to criticise Jim to a premie, who has published a website criticising exes, is fundamentally different to criticising Jim to someone else. This implies to me that Jim is at war with premies, and that Brian is a traitor. This is a strange view of the world, which I don't share. I believe most of us here could have done what Charles did at the height of our devotion, had we the resources to do so. At that time, I would have had no morals regarding selectively painting exes in a bad light to defend my Lord. BTW, those who think that I or Brian can somehow enforce copyright of exes' posts and journeys are living in a fantasy world.

Regarding Brian's actions, I have privately criticised Brian by email, but that exchange is private. I also deleted a long post from Brian (possibly before anyone else read it) that, although it sincerely expressed Brian's views, would at that time have only inflamed the situation. I only mention these facts here in case anyone thinks I am biased in this matter.

I am very sad to ban Jim, as he was instrumental in helping me break free from the cult. When I first found this site, I spent weeks scouring the archives from Forum I onwards and I found Jim's clarity (amongst others) in arguing with premies very helpful. So I just want to say thank you to Jim, and I'm sorry it's come to this.

There will be reactions to my decision, and I'll try to respond to any posts or emails. One reaction will be that some will feel this forum has lost value. In trying to settle this matter, I considered several courses of action.

One was to walk away. This would have left the forum back in Brian's hands, as has happened before. My own conscience wouldn't allow me to do this.

Another was to leave things as they are. This would have meant that two valuable contributors to this forum would have been hounded out by Jim. Also, the forum would still be hosted on the EPO site which would have been a difficult situation with Brian being the webmaster.

Another option was to move the forum to a different platform. This would clarify the separation between the forum and the EPO site. I could then have banned discussion on ownership of the EPO site as being off topic, and nothing to do with this forum (which it isn't even while the forum is here). But Jim would still have succeeded in hounding Brian and Katie off the forum.

When considering the option of banning Jim, I was aware that other posters may, as a result, leave the forum. I've no doubt Jim will post elsewhere, and others are of course also free to do so. As I've said before, anyone is free to start their own forum, and their own ex-premie website. I have no problems with exes doing this, and wish success to any such ventures.

Now because this is a controversial decision, because I feel such a decision shouldn't be made anonymously, and because several of you who disagree with this decision already know who I am, I am breaking with the 18 month old tradition of the FAs being anonymous, with regard to the 'main' FA only.

I am John Brauns, who posts as JHB. My email address is in EPO White Pages, although I would be grateful if FA related mail is sent to the FA mailbox above.

Finally, anyone who shares the same principles as I do, and who wants to help in administering this forum, please email me. I will continue to post on forum matters as Forum Admin, as will other FAs, so my decision to out myself does not affect the confidentiality of anyone else doing this job.

Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:44:59 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Then DELETE ALL our contributions! Let JIM RESPOND
Message:
We'll start other forum but I myself and I know others would like our contributions to this forum to be deleted. I requested taht by e-mail and was told that '...is not possible'.

I feel used by the people in charge of this forum. People at top 'hate' Jim and that is not right. These people are not capable of being unbiased in their practices, and in my opinion do not have emotional balance to do their job. THEY ARE IN A POWER TRIP; they cannot manage the forum without putting their own personal opinion in all which is not fair because this forum is not about them but about all of us.

Banning Jim again was VERY STUPID.

UN-BAN JIM AND LET HIM RESPPOND. You cannot 'throw the stone' and run now... Why ban him? Because others do not like HIS opinion? That is a cheap solution which favors only the ones who hate Jim. This forum sucks!

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:28:14 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself
Message:
Thank you John for your explanation of a difficult decission. I agree Jim outed himself, there is a limit and confidentiallity is of utmost importance an attorney like Jim knows it, I guess in Canada they too benefit from the attorney/client privilege.
Take care,
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:04:33 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: My apology-Brian's fault for mixing up players
Message:
I wrote in a post to Brian:

You insecure asshole. Who gave you permission to assume that because JIm didn't like you, you had the right to do a COWARDLY thing like tell him he's banned.

Brian's response was:

I didn't do that, which might be a small point to make at this time. Who gave you permission to assume that I was given permission to assume just because Jim didn't like me, that I ever told Jim that he's banned?

His incoherent but obviously misleading response made me feel that I mixed you up. Did Brian write that letter/email or not? did he answer my question in his new response when I clearly asked him if it was YOU who wrote it. NO.

I expect honesty when someone as important as the WebMaster is answering.

Sorry for the confusion. I'll post under the thread telling people it's for you.

So, why did you make the decision to OUT him? Because Katie & Brian are having personality insecurity issues? That's not a good enough reason. Show me the posts which prove his culpability.
Don't talk AROUND it, that's Premie Bullshit.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:26:42 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: THE INCREDIBLY SHRINKING PENIS!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
What the fuck is the matter with you? How little can an ALPHA WANNA BE stoop so low as to give a cowardly apologist who leaves trails of breadcrunmbs to his 'real' life a clue. Let him do his own fuckin homework. YOU'RE a NON-TRUSTWORTHY idiot. This is not about morals. Their is no contract for morals according to JHB. This is your own ego-bruised, peepee wipped reaction. This has nothing to do with Jim's behaviour.

Let me point out the differece between you and Jim.
Well, remember Jim sent an email to Pia requesting that his name be dropped with a retraction? Remember? I know it must be really painful for you remember, but remember. Guess What? It was removed the next day with changes to the web site. But NO, not you. YOU DESTROY the camp carelessly and thoughtlessly thinking that you are diplomat.

HE was obviously taken seriously while YOU were used as a fool.

Take a look around you. proof is in pudding?

Any how, there is nothing WRONG with Jim's behaviour. Lot's of people are afraid of 'thinking' and 'arguing'...they just scream out assertions that never get analyzed and exercised. Not everyone can handle cerebral energy. That's fine...they can answer the other posts from people of like mind and similar chakras. Jim never offended me, he challenged me as he did many others. Have you noticed most people loved Jim's posts. Did people want to quit after Katie bid adieu? Although she does have fans, hard to find in a den of hate and anger mongers.

However, there is something WRONG with your behaviour. YOU wrote the discrediting email to Glasser. Dissing Jim is not 'civility' you asshole. We've read Animal Farm. Don't play mind-fuck games.

What you did was the epitomy of Lack Of Control--why would you want to look good in Glasser's eyes? Glasser is a baby. If we were to pull down his pants, we'd find a diaper.

JHB, if you discuss with your wife Jim's behaviour, that's fine. if you tell your father, mother and friends at the Thanksgiving gathering, fine. But Glasser is the opponent. He succeeded thanks to you. What ever moral praise you think is deserving is a lost cause.

You have LOST your credibility. You KNEW what you wrote and didn't want us to see you for the insecure Jim-fearing pathetic geek that you obviously are.

By the way, Who invited you to switch horses during the race. If you wanted to turn this forum into the JHB moral forum you could of informed us. I type in E-X__P-R-E-M-I-E when I want to get here. Not JHB_sharemymorals.org

You really fucked up this time...Why don't you resign if you don't want to ADMINISTER a forum for ex-premies.

There's marketing opportunities for you to be a Red-Cross for mind-fucked cultists. This is not that place. YOU DIDN'T START EPO. Who do you think you are?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:07:59 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: BRIAN (not JHB)
Subject: THE INCREDIBLE SHRINKING PENIS!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
I mistakingly addressed this JHB and I apologize. Although I want to rip a piece olut of him for his assinine decision based on the emotional and psychological immaturity of a couple of people administrating (ONLY) this forum.

Read post below to see where confusion was derived.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:09:26 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Deb.....ID update :)
Message:
The FA = JHB ...John

The EPO webmaster = Brian

Two roles, two people :))

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:50:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Please read my post carefully
Message:
Deborah,

You haven't been following this very closely. I never wrote to Charles dissing anyone.

Read my post again, and attempt to rationally argue your case.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:29:27 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Jeeze John
Message:
You sure have taken some flak from me and others ....

Sorry you didnt elicit a Jim -like line by line response from me....figured a good ole emotional outburst more appropriate under the circumstances:)

primitive irish rage always seems to win over cool English detachment......ah well

Believe it or not ....it was issues , actions, stances that got me going. As a person....as opposed from your role......you're John the sincere Latvian ex :)))

In your role as FA .....well I'm sure you know how I feel about that vis a vis banning Jim etc.

Life goes on .....and continues to be an exhilirating ride

Chers

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:13:17 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Divide and conquer. NT
Message:
XXXX
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:44:51 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself
Message:
will that the biggest dumb ass decision you've made so far. No, not about Jim, but about telling us your name. I will retire before doing that.

fortunatly for me, I don't e-mail people that I know, so I will not have any missing opportunities to have my private e-mails stollen.

I am surprised that anyone could get access to Brians 'private' e-mails. And you're really making the other FA sound like a dork, as if he was planted there by Jim. I do agree that accountability has been compromised. The e-mail should not have been sent.

As far as Jim being banned, how can I make sense of what am saying, he is not here to hear the accusations.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:12:01 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The saddest thing
Message:
is that this is giving those brain-dead premies something to celebrate.

Regardless, thank you to EVERYONE on this forum whose postings have not only helped me, but many, many others through the cult-exiting process. I couldn't have done it without you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:04:10 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: FA,why not step down?Otherwise,I'm outa here...
Message:
Dear FA;

In your list of possible options,you mention that stepping down would put the FA into Brian's hands, which you did not want to do, for some reason.

Why not step down, and hand over the FA duties to someone else(besides Brian) for awhile?

WHY do YOU have to continue?

Banning Jim is certainly not the answer.

Almost everyone has probably broken the rules here at one time or another.
Things like flaming,posting under different aliases,spreading rumors,ganging up etc...

YOU certainly have broken rules.

To ban Jim is simply stupid.

Why not step down and let someone else deal with it?

Must you be the FA?

I'm leaving until this is cleared up.

Sincerely,
La-ex

PS:Jim's presence has, IMO, done more to point out the rawat cults stupidity, and lead more premies and fence sitters AWAY from M than anyone else I know of.

Isn't THAT the main purpose here?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:00:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: a Joe post from july 9 2000
Message:
Jim, I think Keith has already been blocked from the forum at least once, maybe more, for disrupting the forum -- posting too many stupid posts, etc. I have seen the FA from time to time repeat the policy that posting here by premies is a privilege and not a right and I agree with that. Sometimes individual posts or threads are deleted if they are over the line, in the opinion of the FA, and I have always felt comfortable with that -- more comfortable than just blocking people, unless they break one of the few rules, like post under other people's names, threaten, disrupt, etc.
I think the premie posts are very good examples of cult-thinking, and often lead to some good discussions. Keep in mind that some premies are terribly confused and are really questioning and keep coming back because they are getting something here that they don't get from the cult, even though they don't admit it. They may spew a lot of nonsense during the process -- maybe like Elaine, living in the twilight zone of sort of being a premie and sort of not. But I think this forum is important for people like her and I think she ought to be supported and not rejected, even if some of us don't like what she has to say.

Also, from my observation, it's only the more fringe premies who ever have the nerve to even post here. Based on the heavy traffic on the forum, I think a LOT of premies read it but don't dare post. The more plugged in premies are too frightened of becoming a pariah in the cult which they hold on to like a life preserver. Those premies on the fringe have nothing, or less, to lose. Keith, for example, wants to be his own guru I think, which wouldn't make him popular in Elan Vital. I wouldn't be surprised if he is on the 'bongo' list that M's security carries around.

And as form premies coming in large numbers to defend the cult, that isn't going to happen, but if it did I couldn't be happier. Just how do you think they are going to defend the indefensible? How are they going to defend the Elan Vital FAQs which are on their face patethetic lies and spin? I would love to see that and I think it would really open things up.

Finally, I don't want to give EV the ammunition to say that not only do anonymous posters make wild allegations and false statements here, but that we don't allow premies to give the other side of the story. Making this forum as open as possible while pointing out the censorship and lack of open discussion on the Maharaji sites really gives ex-premies the higher moral ground.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:48:53 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: FUCK THAT! WE NEED A NEW FA
Message:
Jim's contributions have been invaluable.

If the EPO continues to host the forum with such a tyrannical FA, I would very much like a refund on the monetary contribution I made to keep it up and running.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:10:20 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Banning Jim is not the solution to the problem
Message:
But you sure did call attention to something that has been brewing for a long time. Let me say here right up front that I do not agree with this banning. This has nothing to do with any personal experiences I have had online with Jim. This is about not using a chainsaw to slice bread with.

It would take a pretty big person, deserving of much respect in my book, to back off from such an unconscious decision and reconsider the feedback of his or her peers, but always being true to him or her self as well.

Discretion is the better part of valor.

To err is human,

To ban Jim is really fucked up....

And to forgive is divine.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:27:44 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: A possible solution
Message:
I suggest that a 'new age' practice be initiated here that begins now. It's begins with everyone involved humbling themselves, confessing to each other their trespasses on each another, then asking for and receiving and giving forgiveness all the way around. No crystals necessary, just the heart of a child within each of us.

If everybody agrees to play straight up, respectful of each other and totally honest, this could be incredible.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:57:20 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: A question, FA
Message:
Just when exactly is this ban effective?
Are you going to give Jim the chance to respond to some threads and posts before you implement the ban?
I think that is only fair, especially if he stays the hell away from Katie, who is no longer here anyway.

Please consider this suggestion, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:53:33 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Big Mistake. Might as well ban all of us!
Message:
We have all 'flamed' here in one form or the other.

Yes, I see many of your points and I don't think the place to talk about this is off line thru emails.
Sure Jim showed poor judgement in posting that email. Sure, Brian showed poor judgement in what he said to Glasser. Yes, Katie got dragged from one end of this forum to another by Jim. He was a real bully. How many of us came to her rescue? Did you? Why didn't you stop the flaming when it was occuring?
What is done is done. What has happened is most unfortunate because I think Katie got really hurt. I can only hope that some time and distance from Jim and this forum will heal that wound for Katie. She is a remarkable person and a very loving one. It's easy to get horribly burned in cyber space and in 'chat' forum rooms. Especially for those of us who are sensitive. Me included.
But to ban Jim over this incident is a mistake in my book. We have all flamed in one form or the other.
To single out Jim for the ugly dialogue between him and Katie is to censor Jim's and Katie's free speach.
This will accompolish nothing; banning Jim. From this point on the forum will lack the kind of spontaneity and ruthless honesty which I respect.
Why not dish out a punishment instead? To outright ban Jim is a punishment in and of itself which doesn't fit the crime in my book.
Just my two cents.
I think you do an exceptional job as FA but went a little overboard on this one.

Sincerely, Tonette Beckwith

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:54:54 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Well said, Tonette.
Message:
All these people signing off forever is upsetting, to say the least. I have no idea if the damage done is irreparable, but I would love to think not. The information on EPO is invaluable, but I think the forum gives the site a human (with occasional exceptions) touch which can be equally invaluable. The forum can be, and usually is, the place where exes and premies alike can discuss how all the information provided on EPO affects them in a real way. It's where the rubber meets the road.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:30:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: LG bastards already celebrating
Message:
Those fucking cult bastards are already celebrating that Jim has been banned.......someone suggested they ban him from there too.

What else can we do to further the cult cause.....weve helped Glassner and LG .....what can we do to help Pia. Any suggestions? Let JHB know as soon as poss

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:55:23 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: correction
Message:
(weird...I posted a correction earlier and it never manifested?)

Anyways.....I said someone suggested they ban Jim on LG

They actually ASKED ....'what about banning him here?' Im told there is a difference......duhhhh

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:52:07 (GMT)
From: Sonny Glade
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Well well, what have we here then?
Message:
A fully paid up member of the Hate Club perhaps?
I must hasten over to LG to see what's going on, nay, join in the celebrations.
Charles, could you take this one down for a poss posting on your site please.
S
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:22:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Forum Admin
Subject: The Reverend will be pleased
Message:
Forums on the worldwide web are a relatively new thing. Never before in the history of Man has there been such a thing. We are still trying to figure out how best to administer them. I think they are pretty much ungovernable and there is very little we can do to make them into what we would like. The best we can do is delete spam although on premie or ex-premie forums, spam is a rarity.

I've administered several Maharaji related forums and they have turned out completely different to how I planned them. I now realise that forums are impossible to predict and by their very nature, are chaotic. Such is the nature of the web.

There's a lot of material here for the Reverend John Hammond-Smyth.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:03:33 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Jim/This Forum/Outing Myself
Message:
IMHO, it just makes you look like a tyrant, FA. You'd better behave or the big, bad, FA is gonna git ya'! Ooooooh!

You bad.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:49:25 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: unbelievably IDIOTIC FA
Message:
Truly truly absurdly IDIOTIC!!!

Hounding? For a start...Brian and Katie gave as good as they got (which they have every right to do )and onlookers could decide to read or not to read. When Mili was posting here I chose (after sussing out his motives and modus operandi) not to read his posts.Simple.

All you have done is leave this forum to the likes of Catweasel et al and deprived it of one of its most effective assets ie Jim.
(not to mention all the other treasured assets Nigel,Moldy,Pat c et al who are leaving as a result of your TOTALLY SHORTSIGHTED decision.

I don't care what moralistic reasons you bring up ......you're an idiot. The only people to benefit will be Rawat and his followers.If you don't see that you're worse than an idiot.

Any jobs for traffic wardens in Latvia? I hear you get a really good hat and uniform and can fine people from morning to night.

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:30:17 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Grow up
Message:
A lot of the problems caused on this Forum have only arrived since you took on the role of FA. You have consistently posted in the same thread as Forum Admin and JHB. I spotted this from the very beginning of your tenure and knew your identity. I have observed the gradual decline of the Forum since then. A couple of days ago we were treated to a ridiculous situation in which
you started a thread off as Forum Admin and then, a few minutes
later, congratulated yourself as JHB. This must certainly break at least the moral rules of this Forum. Consequently your must be considered a hypocrite.

No FA has EVER interferred in the running of F5 as much as you have. Previous FA's were sensible and intelligent enough to keep out of the threads and the minor squabbles that, on occasions have ensued here. You have neither common sense or intelligence.

To ban Jim Heller is ridiculous in the extreme.

I read this forum regularly and post very infrequently. It provides a most useful function, which you have been damaging for some time.

Your period of administration has been an unmitigated failure.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:41:43 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: I partially agree
Message:
Responding to myself was silly - I was actually thinking I never respond to the FA, so I thought that consistently not responding would compromise my identity. So I am surprised you identified me from posts responding to the FA. BTW, when do you think I took over as FA?

But seriously, characterising this latest blowup as a 'minor squabble' is wrong. The ex-FA (BTW, you do not say whether you support his actions) seriously undermined the integrity of this forum by using confidential information to threaten a premie, out him, and then share a confidential email with Jim.

If you do support his actions, then I have no interest in your opinion of me as an FA.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:32:18 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Any way you cut it, you're out of order.
Message:
The major squabble is ONLY with EV, Maharaji and his minions. Unfortunately, your actions are alienating some of the most vibrant contributors to this message board; Jim, Nigel, PatC with more to come. We now have the spectre of more than one X forum, thus greatly diluting the effectiveness of the opposition to the Malibu Mansion.

In light of this, your pontificating over the forum's 'integrity' is just too silly. Since when has this place had any. This ain't the White House or Buck Palace. It's a FORUM where people can, if they want, duke it out. What's wrong with a catfight? Where was EV's 'integrity' when they tried to take the X sites off-line? They steamed right in with every resource at hand. Do you think they wouldn't have used any of the old dirty tricks routines if they could have instead of the legal avenues they tried? Many would stop at nothing to get this site down.

Do the right thing. Not for you but for this little web-group.
Give it up. This would allow the X web presence to remain concentrated on one site, an important thing. Nothing can justify the effect your actions are having. EeVee couldn't really have done any better. Divide and conquer. Never fails.

Chill,

Coach

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:41:02 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Am I?
Message:
I notice you make no attempt to argue the principles I am trying to defend. You just say that it's a cat fight here, and it's good that exes are all in one place. But that catfight has already alienated people, and exes are not all in one place - there are at least four ex-premie sites.

Tell me, Coach, how can Brian host a forum that screams vitriol at him? If that's not possible then the forum has to move. Well move it. I'm staying here.

I think I've thought this through a little deeper than you have.

Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:13:37 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Whatever
Message:
I really don't give a flying fujitsu about your principles.
Why do you feel obliged to impose your principles onto this forum? You're supposed to ADMINISTRATE not PONTIFICATE. Brian's a big boy and appears to know how to take care of himself without you holding his hand and has seemed perfectly capable of hosting a website under a prolonged nuclear strike, let alone a few flames from Jimbo. Site's still up ain't it?

I'm sure you have thought this through a lot more than me. Problem is, what you haven't thought of is that the MAIN function of an FA is to facilitate the running of the forum. Not to drive away a large proportion of it's punters. Not to be the guardian of it's morals, integrity, psychic persona, and so on. That just pisses people off.

Who gives a flying fedora about Glasser, anyway? Fuck him. He'd fuck you over anyway he could given half the chance. That's why he put his site up. A reaction to the 'X Factor.'

Whatever. Please yourself. I guess in the great scheme of things it's no great shakes. There's more to life than hassle.


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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:36:36 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Exactly coach administrate not pontificate
Message:
but sadly I think JHB will prove too stubborn to see the writing on the wall and continue the line of moral priggishness.....I dont think he's at all bothered that the punters pack up and leave.

He can sleep at night in his judeo/chritian morality whilst Glassner, Pia, whittaker et al will see it all as Maharajis grace.

Yet ....yeah....in the scheme of things......this is just our little world.......ultimately no great shakes. Such a pity though ....so counterproductive it's just mindbogglingly stupid.

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:42:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel and Moley
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Banning Jim? Well we are out of here too.
Message:
We may email some of those involved in this recent saga. But banning Jim after what has happened is adding insult to injustice. (Not forgetting Bazza's public humilation after doing an excellent FA job).

Nigel: re. Jim's and Katie's exchanges. As I see it, Katie has voluntarily acquitted herself no less assertively than Jim over recent threads, and given what we now know about Brian's shocking post to Glasser, on top of his referring to FV posters who chose to email Glaseer as 'assholes' (and it isn't only Jim who has committed that particular serious offence) and further given Brian's high-handed and insulting posts to Joe (OF ALL PEOPLE, fer Chrissakes!) who merely expressed an opinion...

Well given all that, and now this decision to ban Jim, I'm afraid it's goodbye from me too (Nigel).

Moley: FA There are so many things I could argue with in your post. But I won't, because I am going. But - there are 2 things I want to say before I leave:
1: I think banning Jim is an utterly despicable act.
2: I'm gonna post above my Email exchanges with Glasser, as my last contribution to this forum- and let them speak for themselves. You are playing into the hands of people like Glasser... be it upon your head.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:32:58 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: Nigel and Moley
Subject: Steve M - this is my last post too
Message:
I've had plenty of run ins with Jim but I respect him. It's not about whether he did the right thing. It's the principal of freedom . This principal is being repressed . This is becoming a cult.

I never knew this was a flame free forum ! It never has been a flame free forum. Without interference these issues blow over.

I'm not being very articulate here I know but it's 3.30 am and I'm foggy.

Anyway I feel pretty disgusted by this non democratic administration and see that it's usually premies who somehow instigate this stuff sometimes indirectly.

If you ban Jim , it's like removing a couple of cylinders from your car engine.

I find it absurd that long term disruptive premies will still be able to post here under various disguises and Jim's gone.

&%&(%&$%$)/)(?)(/ Something is very wrong

Bye

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:48:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel and Moley
Subject: Banning Jim? Well I'm out of here too.
Message:
Well said, Nigel and Moley. I won't wait to be banned. I'm out of here too. See you on our new non-authoritarian, non-politically correct, non-secret forum soon.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:04:15 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Please email me the URL
Message:
of your new forum and I'll advertise it here. I'll also ask J-M to add it to the EPO links page.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:51:46 (GMT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Please email me the URL - me too Pat
Message:
Thx.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:43:46 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: This is sad, the only winner is pukeraji NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:53:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: SF
Subject: My last post and my email address
Message:
Email me SF.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:33:27 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Will miss you
Message:
Thanks for your insight and humor Pat. Hope to find you on another forum (Anything Goes?)
My best,
Henry
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 03:26:33 (GMT)
From: Gina (in the gallery)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, thanks for being kind to this newcomer...
Message:
and for taking the time to engage in honest discourse with someone who 'stumbled' into the forum 3 weeks ago quite by accident. I had no idea what kind of hornets' nest I had happened into. This whole situation is somewhat confusing and dismaying...there is a lot of forum history buzzing around here that newcomers aren't meant to understand, so I'll respect that and stay out of it except to say that I am sorry to see you go.

Go well,
Gina

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:05:01 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I will sorely miss you!
Message:
Please don't leave.
Can you at least continue to lurk and see what happens?
Maybe this will be resolved.

Love, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:30:36 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: My Last Post...
Message:
Da daaaaaaaah....
Da daaaaaaaah....
Da dup dup-dup da da da-da-da daaaaaah...
Da dee da da, dee da-da, dee da-da, da, da-da daaah....
De da dahh, dup dup dah, dup dup da da, dup dup dah
Da da dah, dup dup daaah, dup, dup daaah, dup dup da da, dup dup daaah...
Da daaaaaaaah....
Da daaaaaaaah....
Da dup dup-dup da da daaaaah
daaaaaarrrggggh...!!!

(ulp - time for bed - swallowed the fucking mouthpiece...)

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:16:24 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Larkin
Subject: Very Eloquent, Thanks nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:36:17 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodnight
Message:
We hate to go and leave this pretty site.

Dum diddle-um dum dum dum dum, Dum diddle-um dum dumm

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:40:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: As your former assistant FA
Message:
whom you fired this morning because I stuck up for another former FA, Bazza, I guess you better ban me too.

But my absolute sincere respects to you for outing the wizard behind the curtain.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:36:40 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Hmmm, I had just posted this to Katie below..
Message:
: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:33:30
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Aint you fergitting something?
Message:
Hi Katie,
I must be blind, I dont see where you can say
'I certainly do not think I'm needed, or even wanted, by the great majority of posters on here'

You have been a long time plus here and think of the posts by lurkers who dropped in to call you the house mother of the forum.
Even they could see your care and think of all the folks who
were in various states of distress and you responded and
helped them. Boy the list is long of those you took aside
and gave a shoulder to.
Even those that came here once, like gary meade, you made the
off lineforum for him and peoplethat were just leaving the cult and needed that qoieter more focused help.

Sheesh, think of all the folks that got thier only kind words from you.
Those like me who are barely capable of offering a personal
hand and dont know what to say to some forms of distress
were pleased to see you come to the aid again and again to a number of posters who needed the touch to even weather the forum
so that they could keep here and adjust thier heads.

A hard guy forum is not what most folks need. You knew that and
stepped right into the fray to provide stuff that frankly
even the most personable of the guys dont provide.

How about just not reading those old timers who are not
offering freindship but you just
continue a dialogue with new folks
and dont even bother reading all the posts to that new person.
The new folks will read your posts and your great usefulness to them will be for them to appreciate.

You and I are not really after changing the ex's, leave the new posters to read who they want. They could read a post from you
telling them to just read those that seem to be a help to them
and not those that they cannot handle. Or however you say it.

by the way, do you think that the rest of us forum posters
read any attacks or comments at you seriously?
HOw about just cherry picking your involvement here?
Pick those you love and hang with us/them, and greet the
wanderers with your grace and wit and save the sword for use against Brian:)

Trust the newbies to read whom they want, protecting them is
the FA duty. We should make sure the FA has that as his/her
main focus. I guess that is what the fuss was about with that
recent issue with charles.
In that case, I support you and Brian for being staunch about
protecting the newbie, even the hostile one.
We can handle hostility from a premie!
They take time.
We have all the real cards, and the point is to help them, not
fry them.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:51:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Kant, Hume, Descartes, Spinoza He Isn't
Message:
Life

If Life were a gift, it would need to be accepted.
If Life were a path, it would need to be journeyed.
If Life were a song, it would need to be sung.
If Life were a moment, it would need careful attention.
So, is life a gift?

Some weigh the gift and find it too heavy; others find it too light.
Some measure the box and find it too small, while for others it is too big.

Some have opened the gift and are delighted.

From Haha Rage Ji's website, Response section. Firstly, if you press the button next to the word 'Response' on the home page you get a cute pop-up box saying

Response

My views on selected topics and my responses to selected Email.

Maybe two items under one heading because not enough room on the page or in the design for separate buttons.

Secondly, I take it the above is a view, like a mini-essay. What would you give it, about elementary school second grade English level? If I were a second-grade teacher, I'd probably get a headache trying to grade it - I'd probably return it to the writer and ask for a rewrite.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:07:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: He isn't even as good as Hallmark cards NT
Message:
k
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:29:21 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EV Australia new website
Message:
Long over due. nice splash page, haven't looked at the content.

EV Australia

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:11:07 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: EV Australia new website
Message:
They don't even show a small picture of the rat!
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 07:10:33 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: EV Australia new website
Message:
They di inside on of the pages, with the Sheik Maharaji showing off in Amaroo.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 16:55:46 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.comt
To: Everyone
Subject: ACIM post and Sunday
Message:
I just read the 'Premies and ACIM' post. It was shattering and distressing. I understand that disagreements happen; the whole thing was really disturbing, though. Of course, I don't know people here very well, not well enough to understand them and their backgrounds.

Another Sunday: at least an hour alone while my husband practices, (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean), and then the broadcast to look forward to (gag). I think I'll look for a job to work on Sundays; this is depressing. At least a Sunday job, while I would hate working, would be some more money to help out.

Sorry folks, feeling a bit gloomy here. I'll perk up.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:20:35 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: sunday
Message:
I hear you Timmi. Does your husband work already? When I was a premie and had to go to work in the morning I did get up an hour earlier to do meditation. No reason for him to skip work. Just like the forum, last week I haven't been posting because I was just too tired before/after work, so what? (Reading most of it now I can't say I have been missing much). It must be nauseating to be exposed to those videos. Do you like gardening, sports or reading? I would use my time well if I were you. It also takes some of the 'charge' of the subject of k. and m., that you see it more like an annoying hobby than him having a weird 'mistress'.
The other strategy I would suggest is sitting in the room with him when he goes practising, and also practise the 4 techniques, or yoga, or just push-ups. Videotime could be the time to test the limits of your sound system with 'dark rock' , or if you don't like that, just enjoy our pleasant company on the forum...

(Of course I am not telling you what to do, just try to lighten you up a bit and letting you know that I feel for you in this difficult relation.)

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:29:55 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Bob
Subject: sunday
Message:
Bob,
Actually, my husband only works a part time job, which doesn't help the situation. He has way too much time on his hands to devote to his 'master'. And we are REALLY short on money. I'm not allowed in the room when he is practicing, so yoga or anything else there is out. I do sometimes do it in another room, just to try and keep my sanity! Keeping the conversation going on other topics, hobbies, etc. is a big help, as you suggested. The broadcasts and videas are probably about the worst. I just try to stay close to my husband without actually getting sprayed with the skunk's stench. Not easy, though. Thanks for writing, you did help me lighten up and gave me positive things to think about.
Timmi
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:05:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Sunday, Bloody Sunday
Message:
You've mentioned this being locked out of your bedroom before, Timmi. Isn't it your room too? I think this stinks personally. I would scream bloody murder and tell him to go meditate in a closet. Also get two TVs. He can watch the bloody googoo on his while you watch ''Sunday Bloody Sunday'' on yours. (A very funny movie.)

A part-time job? Financial difficulties? I'd tell him to grow up. I know premies are warm and lovable and often good in bed because they are so touchy feely but....good food and fine wine on your dinner table would make it even better. He needs a real job.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:07:50 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Sunday, Bloody Sunday
Message:
Listen to Pat! You can't let yourself be thrown out your bedroom. The way you describe your husband does remind me about how the girlfriend of a heroinaddict talked about him.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:03:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: ACIM post and Sunday
Message:
Hi Timmi,

Sorry to hear you're down. I've been thinking about your situation - from what you've said it isn't all bad. My sister confessed to me only recently that her husband's TM-trip is a real source of irritation to her (and they've been married for about 15 years now). I'll try to email you soon.

Hugs,

Anna

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:10:43 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Stonor
Subject: ACIM post and Sunday
Message:
Anna,
No, it is not all bad. There is much that is good. Something terrible about feeling lonely and depressed, though, especially on Sunday..... It will get better, and thanks for writing.
Timmi
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 19:43:27 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: ACIM post and Sunday
Message:
I have to concur that that ACIM thread was depressing - what was all that hostility really about? -and I only read the titles of most of the posts. YOu might want to apply to the RE forum, where there is an agreement that we not flame or attack each other. We discuss all kinds of good stuff there.

I want to offer you my support and love, too, with your situation of being married to a premie. I think it's wonderful in a way. It gives you the opportunity to really, really release the old patterns. Many people just run away and years later we find ourselves not really out of the cult, just having pushed it aside. You are being steeped in it, and it gives you the opportunity to keep choosing a new reality for yourself. I think that's the key, though, to keep choosing a new reality for yourself. Don't make your spouse responsible for what you're feeling, but rather just decide that you will take responsibility for generating new inspiration and creativity and fulfillment for yourself. Whatever turns you on. After all, dependency is one of the diseases of our cult involvement, and here is your opportunity to become more independent in turning yourself up and on. Bob or Pat above suggested a few possibilities, which sounded good, but only you know what you are excited about.

My experience has been that present in every situation that seems stagnant is the seed of my next opportunity to grow into something new and wonderful. It's sometimes like a small portal hidden within the walls of same-old, same-old that surround me, but if I can squeeze through it, a whole new world opens up. One of these portals, for me, was when I got so sick that I couldn't move, back in the early eighties. My official doorway was MJ and K, but it wasn't cutting it to free up my soul from the depression of immobility. I was mildly interested in classical music. I bought a couple of CDs, thinking 'what the hell,' and suddenly it became a passion that has lasted to this day, and is still a reliable and seemingly endless source of beauty and joy to me.

If you get extremely inspired and on-purpose in your own life, it can only help your partner if she is eventually going to look for new options for herself. My opinion is that the time is quite close when most premies will be running for the hills, because the number of public allegations will be stronger than the cult's ability to spin the whole thing, and as insiders start to leave, a great new movement out will occur, such as happened in the early eighties. But even if she doesn't leave, as many people here have said, the thing is to focus on what you love about her, and imagine that part expanding in your experience.

Hope this helps a bit.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 12:07:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: What was it really about?
Message:
Disculta: I have to concur that that ACIM thread was depressing - what was all that hostility really about?

It was about whether the ex-premie organisation ('epo') is run by Brian, or ex-premies generally.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 14:37:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Holy shit
Message:
I lurked a bit on the forum today in an attempt to figure out what the hell is going on here.

I wish that these sorts of conflicts could be taken off-line and dealt with there in email. It really makes the occasional poster and lurker uneasy seeing this stuff.

I urge you, Jim, to take a look at why you need to have these public battles with Katie over and over again. It's very apparent that you want to drag her reputation through the dirt.

I wonder at your obsession with what other people say about you in private emails.

Whatever happened with the Charles issue, it appears to me that Katie and Brian acted out of their consciences on that matter,and thus it doesn't deserve this kind of attack-mode, Jim. It's like trying to shoot a sparrow with a cannon. So you disagree with how Katie and Brian handled it, and you haven't liked Katie for years--so what? To take up the forum for DAYS arguing about it seems really excessive. If you feel like your reputation is undeservedly getting a bad rap, can't you deal with it via email, privately?

It's really dismaying to come here and see this. Take care, all, yes even you, Jim. And Jim, in case you want to get into a long discussion about this, let's take it off line eh? HelenRDC@aol.com
Helen


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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:25:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Why didn't you just email me then, Helen? LOL NT
Message:
hhhhhh
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:33:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why didn't you just email me then, Helen? LOL NT
Message:
You're absolutely right, you got me there, Jim. What I should have said, and what I wanted to say was much more general and I have expanded on it a bit in my response to Joe's email.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 15:09:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, how can you STAND AOL?
Message:
That server drove me nuts. And then, you have to go through a Byzantine bureaucratic hell to get them to discontinue. But I hated the 'service' and didn't feel the need to support AOL AND Time/Warner.

Saw a great French film last night called 'The Closet.' When the French do comedy well, they do it very well.

By the way, I agree with you, but I do wish Brian hadn't said those things about Jim to Charles. Brian is entitled to his opinion about Jim as well as the rest of us, but Brian should have been forthcoming and told Jim what he told Charles.

I'm sure Jim doesn't care what that cult-apologist Charles Glasser thinks of him. Burt since Charles Glasser is a vicious liar, without much in the way of scruples, Brian should realize that whatever he tells that guy about any of us, may well get used in ways only Charles Glasser's deluded mind could devise.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:32:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Helen, how can you STAND AOL?
Message:
Well, my main point that I was trying to get across in my post is how these politically convoluted fights look to the occasional lurker/poster. Also, I am surprised that Jim is so offended by what Brian said about him in an email. I have seen Brian say the same things many times to Jim's 'face' (so to speak).

Anyway I am probably commiting the same sin by bringing all the stuff up again. I probably should just stay out it. More generally, I wish that people could try to not air their dirty laundry so publically. It just seems unseemly. We should all take a little pride in our cyber community and not stoop to this low in-fighting, which just makes us all look really petty. End of sermon, go ahead Jim, call me Schoolmarm, I always got a kick out of that, in real life I am anything BUT.

Anyway, Joe, I also wanted to see the Closet. I loved all his other movies, especially Les Compres (sp). Problem is the only theater playing it, and another one I want to see, 'Songcatcher,' is all the way downtown. We spent the entire day down at the folk life festival downtown yesterday, dropped our daughter at the babysitter and then didn't want to drive all the way downtown again for a movie. So we saw 'AI'. Have you seen it? Shades of Bladerunner, similar theme, the moral resonsibility we have to our 'creations' (robots, cyborgs). It was very disturbing, very dark, not a kid's movie at ALL.

Regarding AOL, Joe, we are such creatures of habit. We aren't that unhappy with it, and we are loathe to change. If you have a better service let me know what it is. I have nothing to really compare it to, so I really don't know what I am missing :)

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:21:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Not the point, Helen
Message:
I don't think it's 'what' Brian said so much as that he said it behind Jim's back, to Clarles Glasser, who is a morally impacted person, or at least has no objective abilities when it comes to his cult, and therefore all of us. It isn't that Brian said negative things about Jim, it's that he said it, as EPO webmaster, in a confidential email to Charles. That was completely inappropriate, and I wish he hadn't done that.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:37:30 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi, Helen
Message:
Well, my main point that I was trying to get across in my post is how these politically convoluted fights look to the occasional lurker/poster.

How do you know people aren't just laughing their asses off? I have to admit, I get a kick out of them every single time. Ever since the Jim/Bobby battles that use to rage here, I can always count on a good show at Forum 5. Best entertainment on the net.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 04:04:37 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hi, Helen
Message:
i have said before, i wish they would play this stuff out elsewhere...that the forum can be used for focus on m and the cult and not the politics of the forum..he said, she said, i said, etc. discouraging...for me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:00:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: RIGHT on, Mike n//t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 00:11:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hi, Helen
Message:
Yeah, but it hurts people. That's the problem. Bobby would probably not agree with you that those exhanges were funny.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:48:57 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, Songcatcher is wonderful. /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 02:39:50 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Helen, Songcatcher is wonderful--I agree
Message:
Hi Helen:

The music in Songcatcher is just wonderful. All of the singing is fabulous, and Iris DeMent sings one that was so touching. Great flick...catch it before it disappears.

I wish I could wave a wand over the forum...the turn of events are sad.

Take care
M

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 03:12:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Monmot/Richard
Subject: Helen, Songcatcher is wonderful--I agree
Message:
Thanks for the recommendation regarding the movie, you too, Richard. Yes, I had better catch it before it vanishes. Good movies that are hard to commercialize tend to disappear.

yes, the turn of events here is sad. However, I personally don't think people are taking seriously enough the idea of stealing someone's email and posting it. I think that's pretty egregious stuff myself. Personally, I know I will be alot more careful about who I trust here at EPO.

Anyway, I will continue posting here now and then. Maybe y'all would like to chat via email sometime. Take care
Helen

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 19:51:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Do I get to respond a bit or what?
Message:
Nothing's stopping you from kicking this cat around on the forum this morning, Helen, so I guess I might as well respond.

Well, my main point that I was trying to get across in my post is how these politically convoluted fights look to the occasional lurker/poster. Also, I am surprised that Jim is so offended by what Brian said about him in an email. I have seen Brian say the same things many times to Jim's 'face' (so to speak).

Of course this shit is ugly. But, Helen, it's unfair and inaccurate for you to suggest that I was just bent out of shape because Brian criticized me as he did in email and I happened to get a copy. My whole point is that Brian did that as the EPO webmaster in this particular email exchange with Glasser of all people. You might not see a problem with that but then I wouldn't expect you to. The last time I got in an argument with Katie your opinion was that I had serious mental problems. Hm.


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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:37:17 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do I get to respond a bit or what?
Message:
You have a longer memory than I do, Jim. I can't even remember us fighting about Katie and me saying you had serious mental problems, but I can imagine myself saying that to you! I am sure whatever I said, you were probably behaving like a jerk at the time. Yes, it's coming back to me, I told you to get some help because you seemed so obsessed with minutae, it was really creepy.

I don't agree that Brian has the obligation to say only nice things in his email correspondence with others regarding you, even if he was wearing the hat of representing EPO at the time. I think you are holding him up to a higher standard here than you hold yourself. Could you do that--be totaly unbiassed about people here, if you were the webmaster? Could you be unbiassed about the people who criticized you and complained and called 'hey webmaster' when they wanted something done? You accuse Brian of being a martyr, but trust me, you would not find it to be a picnic being either an Fa or webmaster of a website with alot of members working out their issues with 'authority figures.'

It's hard for me to be sympathetic to you, Jim, you always seem to have a beef with people here and want to drag them through the mud here. It's just tiresome after awhile.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 05:28:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You guys surprised me a bit today
Message:
No, this isn't about 'that' stuff. Not this one. But, really, you guys all surprised me a bit.

Last night, on the way to bed, I noticed this old 'Elan Vital' from 1978. Believe me, when I'm off forum I'm usually off topic but this magazine was just peaking out from the side of my filing cabinet (the one where I store all of your emails with one another) and I grabbed it for a sec. That's when it hit me. Holy cow! Here was Maharaji not just saying that he was the Lord of the Universe but even giving a People Magazine-style interview as to what that was like! And then, look over here -- there he is actually warning the premies, not once but several times, that he had the power to destroy the whole world in a flash if he wanted to! Why? Because, as he explained, he was the Almighty, after all.

I woke up early this morning so excited to be able to post this shit on both the forum and LG[s]. I had to get it up in case I died or something. Or, more realistically, so I could see what everyone thought a few hours later when I got up again. How in the world could the premies even think of dealing with this? And you guys, ... well, I just thought you'd be falling all over yourselves in the excitement one naturally feels in these matters when the smoking gun falls right into your lap. I remember feeling this way when we first got some of the other good quotes that JM's so nicely put up for all to enjoy. But this, I thought, was a bit different. This was Maharaji actually being interviewed about being the Lord, telling us how he'd like to let us have that experience too, if only he could. This was something new.

So, yeah, you guys surprised me a bit. Like, don't you see the significance of this? Maharaji told 'the world' last month that ne is not God. EV scoffs at the idea that he ever said otherwise. But these quotes, like the others only more in a way, put the lie to all of that.

Personally, and this is just a suggestion, I think that they should be permanently displayed on EPO, frond AND centre. I'm not sure where the suggestion box is around here but if any of you are talking with the webmaster one of these days, you might want to pass along the idea.

No, really, aren't these quotes something else? Catweasel sure thought so. As did CD, whose opinion on LG[s] as to whether the premies who denied m was a liar had 'lost the game' was astutely expressed:

Some people just don't give a damn about your 'logic' games.
What good have they done you in your life. You haven't proven anything of real value. Its just easy word play that fits in with your legal analysis training. Thats it.

Got a message to cheer somebody up or provide inspiration with some depth? Lets hear that. Put your verbal talents to use for the positive. Does everything you say have to start out with I've won, you've lost, no youre wrong, I'm right?

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:57:46 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I thought it was a great find. Thanks for that..nt
Message:
fgshsdf
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:20:51 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sounds like you need something that you crack on.
Message:
Sounds like you need some appreciation and gratitude, or that is what you are fishing for. I am grateful and I appreciate any and all information that will give me a better picture of what it is that I am trying to see in its entirety.

One who supplies such information however is not entitled to run roughshod over anyone just because he or she has done some homework. If you can keep the information coming and not feel so entitled to ream anyone you feel like, you'd be a hell of a guy.

So from a most unlikely source, namely myself, I will say that some of the things you have brouht here have been most edifying. Just don't spoil it by being such a tire iron.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:39:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sandy
Subject: Hi Sandy
Message:
If you can keep the information coming and not feel so entitled to ream anyone you feel like, you'd be a hell of a guy.

I hope I'm not intruding on your ongoing dialogue with Jim, but what do you exactly mean by 'ream' in this context? I've looked at three dictionaries and one of them showed 'victimize' as a definition, which is I gather what you mean. Do you really think that Jim victimizes people here? If so, how do you figure that?

Just don't spoil it by being such a tire iron.

Again I've consulted three dictionaries regarding 'tire iron' and one of them has an obtuse reference to 'iron' being harshness of character. I've met Jim and followed his posts for nine months and I don't see that.

Anyway, I don't usually interfere with Forum arguments, but I found this one too tempting.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:50:31 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hi Steve
Message:
What I am talking about is self-evident in the threads. It may not be your own personal experience, but it is the experience of myself and others, premie/ex-premie nothwithstanding.

If you say you don't know what I mean or you need references, you are either baiting me, just being obtuse, or you have not read the threads with compassion for your fellow human beings.

Are you going to even take my go at being positive with Jim and try to make it into something else? For Christ's sake man, leave a precious moment alone. I gave him kudos for bringing valuable information to light, and I suggested that he go easier on the humans. I see no problem with that.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:13:43 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sandy
Subject: Hi Sandy
Message:
What I am talking about is self-evident in the threads.

'Self-evident' means 'requiring no explanation. If I say that it was dark out last night, I think that's fairly self-evident. If someone else said it, I would assume that the moon was not out or covered by clouds, not many street lights in the area, etc. If it was in a novel, I would not write a letter to the author requesting explanation. But in a discussion group, I think we are all entitled to request explanation if we want more detail on a point. It can't hurt to ask, right? Yes, you were addressing your post to Jim, but if your message were really private, you would put it in an email, right? If you were criticizing Jim at a separate table at the pub, I probably wouldn't interfere in the conversation, but if it was close to earshot, I might. This forum is less private than a table at a pub, in my opinion. Even though your post is addressed to Jim, I click on every post to look and see if something public might be included that I might want to learn about - so all posts are fair game for response if appropriate, IMO.

Also, by its very nature, this Forum contains a lot of revelation of private discussion and hearsay. Requesting clarification of parts of such discussions is at the heart of the Forum, IMHO.

So when you say that 'what I am talking about is self-evident in the thread', that is an obvious snub to me. When you use words like 'ream' and 'tire iron' in reference to a friend of mine, I feel entitled to ask for explanation. No, I definitely don't agree with you that the explanation is self-evident. How can you say that?

Sincerely,

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 19:38:06 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hi Steve
Message:
Steve,

Your friend Jim can and has been a tire iron to me and others here. He also reams whoever he chooses and all one has to do to get a free reaming is to disagree with Jim and not be spot on to the Oxford dictionary. That is not esoteric information. Where have you been? If you bask in the glow of his friendship, then of course you may not be in the direct line of fire, nor does your friendship have any bearing on this matter.

I don't want to clutter up the threads with personality loops like this, with Jim or anyone else. I do believe with everything in me that he knows what I mean and you have a pretty good idea too. So let's not do this anymore on this forum. If you have a beef with me any further, you can e-mail me at mcpass1@earthlink.net

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:07:51 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sandy
Subject: Hi Sandy
Message:
I don't want to clutter up the threads with personality loops like this, with Jim or anyone else.

There's a great song by the Rolling Stones with the line :
You can't always get what you want
And if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

Sandy, I've seen a lot less instructive threads than this one. Do what you want or what you need to, but don't play word games with me, please.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:41:12 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hi Steve
Message:
No word games here. I don't see any need to go further on this and make you a shopping list of all the reasons I used words like 'tire iron' and 'ream' to describe how Jim has been. Then I would be accused of having some sort of personal vendetta and using up space to prove it. So I am going to be accused of something...not answering you well or copping out, or going after Jim. I feel that I did answer you well and I do not wish to go after anyone.
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 13:39:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I have an old glossy little brochure around here
Message:
It's about 3 x 5 folded up. It's got a pic of young GMJ in dhoti and kurti with his hands up in blessing formation. There are blue and yellow rays coming from behind his head. The headline is 'The Lord Has Come'. Inside the brochure are many quotes from many scriptures which attempt to tie them as a reference to GMJ. It was done by DLM. I don't see how DLM could or would do this without at least his blessing if not personal direction.

I was not around until the late 70's. I cannot imagine a group of well-meaning premies doing such a publication without his knowing or approval.

I have not been able to find it lately, since I just painted the interior of our home and things got all moved around.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:17:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I posted that interview last year
Message:
Jim,

You must have missed it. When I read your post I thought it was a good reminder, not that you thought it was something new. But maybe you're right about it having some prominence on EPO - write to the webmaster with your suggestion.

John.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:47:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: WHAT?? oooops! NT
Message:
fffffff
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 14:25:29 (GMT)
From: LOL
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: write to the webmaster with your suggestion
Message:
write to the webmaster with your suggestion

While you're at it Jim could you get the webmaster to copyright our Journeys?

LOL

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 06:05:33 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What are you surpised at us for?
Message:
I don't get it, Jim. I saw the post at LG as well as the standard premie response. I thought it was great and even pasted it into my little cyber notebook of Maharaji quotes to use in future discussions. But I don't understand what you're surprised about. What did we do? Or is that what DIDN'T we do? You just laid it out for all to see. Really, what was left except to wait and see what the premies had to say? And really, what is left to say after what they DID say?

What did Cat do, he told you to fuck off. Big surprise there. CD pleaded with you to say something nice. SC, well SC was just being SC. Carlos thanked you for the quotes. It doesn't matter that Maharaji no longer claims to be God In A Bod, and even claims he never said such a thing. Carlos KNOWS that's what he is. Go figure. Wm said something slightly incoherent that it just hurts my head to try and figure out. So, what's the big surprise? What could any of us possibly have done but shake our heads in further disbelief at the blinders premies have on?

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 11:27:30 (GMT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Please quote/paraphrase me acurately
Message:
Corections of your (non-malicious, I'm sure; after all, you aren't Jim) inacuracies

1) What I stated, I stated as belief, not as fact.

2) I believe all human beings are aspects of God (God in a bod, in an ex phrase I love). So I believe both you and M are God.

3) I believe Satguru is a/the aspect of God who can, in a manner of speaking, remove the amnesia re: their true nature from the other aspects.

4) I believe M is a/the Satguru.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 23:08:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: It's a matter of degree, isn't it, Carlos?
Message:
Carlos,

The point I'm trying to make is that you still believe things about M he hasn't staked a claim on in years, and even outright denies he ever did.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 06:10:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh, Jer, it's no biggie
Message:
Sorry, don't mean to offend. All I meant was I expected more of a reaction, that's all. I mean, God, there it all is. The whole rotten banana. That's all. No biggie.

.... time to jam.....

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:01:03 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: just another smoking gun
Message:
Hey, will you quit that Jim! A guy can't move for all them smokin' guns ya keep bringing in here.

I know I'm wasting my time with you, but sheesh, Jim! Just be nice, will ya. I don't like reality, got that!

Sheesh again.

bloody trouble maker

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 12:33:33 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: JohnT And Everyone
Subject: Double Sheesh nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 07:29:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim et al
Subject: Jim, we all remember that shit . We aren't premies
Message:
with ''evolution'' alzheimers.

Well, I know you're being dry and even a bit coy here, Jim, but what did you really expect from exes? You got a bit of a rise out of the premies on LG but it was a cheap shot since only Cat is cynical enough to know what you're getting at. The other PWKs are still rubbing their eyes and scratching their heads.

I was just thinking how refreshingly nutty it all was. Little Pimple Rawat was so bouncy and we were so gungho. It was such fun. Pimple was obviously the Merry Prankster and we were all ''gods and better get used to it'' as Ken Kesey (according to Richard) said. Man o man did he fit right into my acid induced entheogenic cosmology!

Then came the ashrams and the WPC and DUO and DECA and one goddam stupid scheme or car or plane after the other and it began to smell fishy. Thanks to the refrigerative powers of Knowledge (freezes your brain) we didn't notice the stink of rotting fish and ''evolution'' occurred.

Now Whitewash Whittaker can write (with a straight face - which he is very good at - that Pimple never said he was god and all emails have to be through a secret ''first class'' encrypted system and premies are told by EV officials that ''Miragey can't say everything in public. There are just some things he cannot say.''

Give me the good old days when the Lord of the Universe was greater than god and could tell us more about the human brain than a neuro-surgeon and we were not ashamed of it. Meanwhile ''thanks to the advice of some very good accountants'' (thanks Sandy) ''Miragey is now independently wealthy.'' Nice work if you can get it.

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