Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:24:11 (GMT)
From: Jul 06, 2001 To: Jul 15, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Two Feet -:- Post Nottingham ... Ruminated Thought -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 13:05:19 (GMT)
__ Henry -:- Don't wait for the grace - start IRA -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 04:18:20 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- yeah, it bothers me too -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:24:48 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Well, Maharaji abandoned, ME... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Actually, you are lucky he did abandon you. -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 22:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- Well, Maharaji abandoned, ME... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:11:55 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Food for Thought but not for the table -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:00:48 (GMT)
__ michael donner -:- Post Nottingham ... Ruminated Thought -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Michael, Questions..... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- Michael, Questions..... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Michael, Questions..... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:41:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- About the abandoned initiators -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:50:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Jeez Joe -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:07:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- The 50k payoff -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:17:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hi sweetie... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- TF-Great question,MD-perfect answer nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:04:24 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Another great post TF -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:18:29 (GMT)

it_IS-so -:- shuttle posting -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:08:25 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- shuttle posting -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:03:00 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Okay I voted -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- thank you, here is a lolli -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 13:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Awesome work, me ol' dungi mate!! Thanks. -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:17:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Cool Salam....Thanks!! n/t -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Cool Salam....Thanks!! -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:20:24 (GMT)

janet -:- the brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:35:14 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- catastrophe or opportunity -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 00:38:18 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Big Pic: exes' Integrity vs. cult's Dishonesty?(nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:32:42 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- the brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 11:14:47 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- the brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:35:22 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:15:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 03:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:33:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Thank you - You responded intelligently -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:27:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Thank you - You responded intelligently -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:33:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Forum for exes/EPO for premies -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:15:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Forum for exes/EPO for premies - yes, John -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Couldnt be more wrong Pat...nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 06:10:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Forum for exes/EPO for premies - yes, John -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:22:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'd like to work with you n Dave to reach a happy -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Looks like there may be a vacancy for an FA -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Let's split the work load -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:50:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- You need to rethink this issue.,,,,,nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 06:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- 'political biases' vs imitation of cult deceit?(nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:56:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Dissing Jim to Charles, Answer to Richard -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:56:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill-when there ar e no -:- consequences, there is no freedom......nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:48:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Property is theft -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- I was arguing to the 'other side' of J's comments -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:52:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- I was arguing to the 'other side' of J's comments -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:13:30 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Please repost on Forum Six -Free Expremie Forum -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:51 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Message delivery service -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:24:01 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Return to sender -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Sorry, closed today -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:40:13 (GMT)
__ clh -:- the brouhaha right now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- feel free to take it over in total.Šjanet schwartz -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:47:26 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Thanks for the score card janet -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Thanks. we can't rush their growth. we wait. -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Thanks for the score card janet -----OT -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:48:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes Salam, that's me OT -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- A real discussion !!-- great to see NT -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:00:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- what are? the keeper of the records -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- never mind- just a comment on the manners -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:11:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- never mind- just a comment on the manners -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:34:43 (GMT)

Dermot -:- Volunteers to run ex-prem.org??? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:20:29 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- will not touch it with a bar of soap -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:51:27 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- My vote - let K and B do their thing and we'll do -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:48:42 (GMT)
__ bill -:- you didnt read thier posts well enough..nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- read Katies post to me on LG Bill -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- LG? Sorry, Dermot, I dont know how to access it.nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:51:35 (GMT)
__ A non-poster -:- May banned posters volunteer..? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:58:55 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Who needs censorship anyway? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:14:01 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Would you take over the Forum V?.../nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Only in this way -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:33:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Only in this way--Sounds like a good way. -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Now you're talking, Sir Dave -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill-I love you but the -:- idealist ideas unfortunately dont work on humans n -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:06:52 (GMT)

Joe -:- Ex-premie Laura Davis, expert on child sex abuse -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:32:30 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Ex-premie Laura Davis, expert on child sex abuse -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:45:59 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Ex-premie Laura Davis, expert on child sex abuse -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- PS -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 03:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- PS to Abi -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:39:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- interesting topic -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Sex NOT in the City -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:23:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Sex NOT in the City -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:51:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Abi -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:11:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Hi Deborah -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 22:03:02 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Good for you, Disculta....../n -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:32:31 (GMT)

Joe -:- Maharaji's Cheap Hinduism -- true then, and now -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:20:19 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Maharaji's Cheap Hinduism -- true then, and now -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:00 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Also, as I said to la-ex about a month ago ... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- So, it probably is him, then -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:54:33 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- I know Alan Imbarrato -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ DV -:- I know Alan Imbarrato -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:30:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Hopefully -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DV -:- Hopefully -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:46:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Regarding MM -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:55:13 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Know where Alan is now? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Sorry--try Thousand Oaks directory -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Here's where Allen Imbarrato is.... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Here's where Allen Imbarrato is.... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:03:00 (GMT)

Chuck S. -:- Debate VS Polite Noise and Unanimity... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:02:35 (GMT)
__ cq -:- I vote for debate ... but on whose terms? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:14:42 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Yes debate, but the least terms may be the best... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:45:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- The Wrong Moccassins? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:58:01 (GMT)
__ __ bill-nt -:- Maybe you guys could just read those threads again -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:24:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Once was enough, thanks... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:28:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Once was enough, thanks...who needs post mortems? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:54:58 (GMT)

Paul -:- Maharaji promo on NY cable TV -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:33:47 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Are you serious? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:59:29 (GMT)
__ __ bill-NT---Joe, I would -:- never lump drag queens with such madness and greed -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ Paul -:- absolutely!! (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Are you serious? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ Voyeur -:- Are you serious? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:09:33 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Maharaji porno on NY cable TV -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:47:48 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Maharaji is signing his death certificate -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:41:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- TV News Consumer advocates -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:51:09 (GMT)

Cynthia -:- Bring back Jim and Let's Get Back on Topic! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:29:52 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Charles accomplished fuck all -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:14:59 (GMT)
__ Silvia -:- Jim BANNED? This is getting ridiculous!! -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:22:44 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Like you said, you didnt read all the posts...nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:26:28 (GMT)
__ DV -:- I think this forum needs a flame room linked with -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:06:21 (GMT)
__ Charles Sprague -:- Agreed, Cynthia, but unfortunately it seems... -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Charles...and everyone else -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charles Sprague -:- Put butter on their feet...(OT) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:36:32 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Yeah the visitor is nicknamed 'DEEP THROAT' -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Tempest in a teapot -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:34:50 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Bring back Jim and Let's Get Back on Topic! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:43:50 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Bravo Cynthia (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 17:58:56 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:21:29 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Maybe there was NEVER a problem!!!!! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:51:32 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:42:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:20:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You can't protect it completely -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- 'solutions' are a dime a dozen -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 17:48:55 (GMT)
__ michael donner -:- Maybe there is a solution -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:26:13 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Thanks For That Post, Mike -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:43:41 (GMT)

Dermot -:- How did JHB attain his power -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:08:15 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- He was chosen by his Father who was FA before him -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Lol Joe (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:23:06 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- JHB didn't attain his power--he assumed it!!!!! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:56:45 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- How did JHB attain his power -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:18:13 (GMT)
__ donner -:- How did JHB attain his power -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:14:22 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Bigger fish -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:40:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- You're a Bigger fish than you realize -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:08:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Your divisive rhetoric -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:53:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Yes -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- It's not about Jim WINNING-It's about you WHINING -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:14:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Okay -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Okay, Not over. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Okay. Over. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- HOW FUCKIN BIG OF YOU TO ANSWER MY POST, BRIAN! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:52:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- OK, Brian thanks for that -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:48:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:42:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Yes -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:24:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh Oh -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:04:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- Uh Oh is right -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:17:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ barney -:- Glad I'm not like you two loosers! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- I agree Gerry -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- How are you doing, John? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm OK -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:26:18 (GMT)

Abi -:- BRING BACK JIM! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:42:47 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- BRING BACK JIM! Jim may have other plans -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:24:11 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Happy to -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:00:24 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Can't let go of the wounded egos, eh? -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- The ''Landlords'' of FV... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- The ''Landlords'' of FV... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Happy to - Jim read this! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:38:40 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Another Bitch -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:30:21 (GMT)
__ MK -:- Well Steve if you can't smell the stench by now -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:09:42 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Such words reveal your truth -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 11:41:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- Got to admit Dave it's bloody funny over there -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:45:12 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Yeah, Yeah, Yeah -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:22:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- Yeah, Yeah, Yeah -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Yeah, Yeah, Yeah - no, no, no, Steve -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- No, No, No, No, No, No, Pat -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:15:39 (GMT)

wolfie -:- Mainz was unbelivebale....Bing Bam Boom!!!!!!!!!! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:45:08 (GMT)
__ don puerco -:- Mainz was unbelivebale....Bing Bam Boom!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 11:38:28 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- A_Mainz_ing GRACE...la la la la -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:32:16 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- A_Mainz_ing GRACE...la la la la -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:32:16 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Mainz was unbelivebale....Bing Bam Boom!!!!!!!!!! -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Powerful post wolfie LOL -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:55:15 (GMT)
__ toby -:- thanks too, for the report -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:41:40 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Thanks Wolfie....(nt) -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:48:41 (GMT)

Salam -:- My objection to Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:49:36 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i would accept that as honest, from him. -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 07:41:17 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- My objection to Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:53:18 (GMT)

Francesca -:- Here, there and everywhere -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:05:25 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Here, there and everywhere -:- Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:34:58 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 13:05:19 (GMT)
From: Two Feet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Post Nottingham ... Ruminated Thought
Message:
I've been meaning to tell someone this because it's important to me and I never used to have anyone to say these things to. When I went to the Nottingham program for the day I really struggled to keep awake when M was talking but I woke up at one point because what he was saying interested me … it was, in my opinion, totally irresponsible.

M was talking about Pensions ... how people have told him that he should think about providing for his future but ... with shrug of the shoulders ... the future will take care of itself.

I've been thinking about this ever since and it's the implication that bothers me ... that all you have to do in life is practice K and then everything will be taken care of … or is the truth that premies have better things to do with their money e.g. financially support him.

Surely M has treasures enough stored for this life and the next ... but what about those thousands of premies sitting in front of him who are led by his spoken (do as I say, don’t do as I do) example? What is going to happen to EV when all these people reach pensionable age (which is getting closer by the year) and haven’t thought about the future ... because they followed his implied example and don’t know any better?

If I sound like a pension advisor … I’m not! But I have spent time with people who do, literally, live in the moment because they are part of what I term a 'survival culture' … a people / community / extended family system that inherently provides for one and all. We don't ... so … my question is this:

Who is going to be there to support the old and retired premies who have based their lives on M’s implied example and let the future take care of itself. When the chips are down is Maharaji? Will he respond in kind and return something of the selfless devotion that has been showered upon him over all these years?

I have a sinking feeling that I know the answer…

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 04:18:20 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Two Feet
Subject: Don't wait for the grace - start IRA
Message:
Great post Two Feet.
Amazing how long magical thinking persists. I drifted away from Rawat and officially left in 1989. Finally got practical and started saving for retirement in 2000. That's 11 years of being stuck in magical thinking. Even though I thought I was no longer following Rawat, I refused to look at the future and the fact that I needed to start saving. Now I'm 49 and have finally woken up financially. It was easier to stay asleep in ignorance. Thanks again.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:24:48 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Two Feet
Subject: yeah, it bothers me too
Message:
Rawat has been saying things like that for so long to the premies, it is embedded into their thinking. Technically they know he won't help them, he says that too, but emotionally they are convinced that his 'grace' will provide.

Sick, isn't it!

'Even in your deepest darkest hour I will not abandon you'

another little porkie pie from the humanitarian leader.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:44:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Well, Maharaji abandoned, ME...
Message:
I can't speak for anyone else, but there was a time in the cult, when I sincerely asked for his help, even in the form of a registered letter, and he did absolutely nothing.

Then, he said that being in the ashram was a supreme, and life-long, committment, however, one day, Maharaji just abandoned the ashram premies, dumped them into the streets, and even sticking them with the debts. How is that for ABANDONMENT.

Then Maharaji abandoned me because he told me he was the incarnation of God, and hence I should listen to what he said, indeed, it was my supreme privilege to serve him, so, I trashed my life for 10 year to do that, only to be ABANDONED by Maharaji when it was no longer to his benefit to be God anymore, and he just pretended he never did. Again, I was abandoned.

How much 'darker' does it have to get before Maharaji stops ABANDONING people?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 22:11:05 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Actually, you are lucky he did abandon you.
Message:
Or rather, lucky you realized it. Now you are free!

bw,
C.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:11:55 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Well, Maharaji abandoned, ME...
Message:
Whenever I think of that quote, which he went into with relish over and over again, I remember his flirty little smile, and an image of myself slumped in confusion at the base of the black wall of my despair. Yeah, he is definitely lying when he sits on his throne and tells his premies 'the perfect master has a little trick, see, the master doesn't say the deepest darkest hour won't come, (elaboration, elaboration), but when you get to the bottom of the barrel, there is a trapdoor, just open it and drop through.' well, I've checked and there isn't one, what there is is those people who have already come up empty handed, and care about how you may be feeling.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:00:48 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Two Feet
Subject: Food for Thought but not for the table
Message:
Two feet...thank you for posting that. Yes, you are so right, so right indeed. Unfortunately, many premies are going to wake up to this plight too late.

M's brainwashing altered all our destinies and that's were our incentive for being comes from.

Now, personally, I can cut my losses but I refuse to cut my awareness despite this fact.

I regained a lot of my individuality as a result of drifting away. It was like Time just crept into my life and wedged a rift between me and Premie Cultdom. When I came back to this site for remaining closure of my past priemie life, I was absolutely shocked. Never could I imagine the horrors of the perpetuated BigLie.

To hear that Marolyn and the kidz are up there doing damage control and propagating this horrific family business just boggles my mind. How could they? What are THEY thinking?

Accepting the Truth will renew a flood of potential in you. Trust me, this process is only 7 weeks old for me. To stay in denial or downplay will only perpetuate the damage you unfortunately willingly committed against yourself due to M's deception.

This is a major concern for a lot of us. Take your power back and go do the things you know in your heart you should of done.

You have my support in your cult-be-gone decision as well as my support for your professional goals. It's all tied together.

Peace be with you. Very good point to bring up!

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:51:01 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Two Feet
Subject: Post Nottingham ... Ruminated Thought
Message:
hi, in the early 80's when m was dismantling the initiator/instructor process that he created...discharging people from a path that most of us thought was for life...we gave our lives to him with vows etc especially to become an instructor/initiator..
and then he began telling people to stop doing that and gave them nothing else to do...get a job, move whereever you like, do whatever you want..etc..and no ashram system anymore either.

I tried to get even a little money to help transistion people from what had been for most full time service for many years...and got pennies. I personally left with about 500 dollars in my pocket. not much to start a new life with.

m was wrapped up in his own marital problems then and didn't have the time nor energy and didn't take the responsibility to do his own duty in this regard. but he did take care of himself and he is set for life...because that is where he put his energy, where he paid attention.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:59:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Michael, Questions.....
Message:
Thanks for that post.

How did the initiators react to Maharaji setting them loose? What did they end up doing? Where any of them angry, or was it just 'lila and surrender?'

I recall leaving the ashram with zero money, and not even the hint of suggestion that I was entitled to a dime, despite the fact that I had turned over every cent I made for a good 8 years. I was fortunate in that I at least had a job at the time.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:07:40 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Michael, Questions.....
Message:
hi joe, there were many reactions...some surrender..some angry, many confused because of the 'i thought it was for life' idea, some worried...many worried about what to do, where to do it..so many of them into our mid forties and even early fifties by then...a few younger...some with significant health issues that required lots more money and time to transition then was available.

it was my 'service' to help sort all this out with little or no imput from m at the time. we did some career seminars, one day things and some books to read, tried to find temporary housing in a city where someone wanted to go...most used their own contacts with friends or family in an area of choice...the miami ashrams/houses were still available for some months to most but that was changing fast as well.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:41:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Michael, Questions.....
Message:
Did Maharaji worry or comment at all that he was concerned about what the Initiator's reactions might be? How many initiators were let loose at one time? Were all of them given $500 each?

Did Maharaji meet with them and explain WHY they were being set loose? Why didn't he want initiators anymore, anyway, and why did he 'make' so many of them if he didn't need them?

Was it mostly a financial decision that they were too expensive?

What kind of health issues were there, and what did those people do?

Did any of them who were angry express their anger at Maharaji?

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:50:19 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: About the abandoned initiators
Message:
'What kind of health issues were there, and what did those people do?

Did any of them who were angry express their anger at Maharaji? '

I was in contact with many of the 'abandoned' instructors (and ashramites) in Miami at that time. Since it was professional, I can't say anything specific.

Some of them had really serious health issues. The ones I tried to help were very, very pissed off, but mostly unable to admit it, even to themselves, which wasn't helping with their health issues.

It was a bit of an emotional holocaust.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:07:29 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Jeez Joe
Message:
You mean you didn't get $50,000 like the premies did who now post on Lifes Great?

It seems like y'all were all in the wrong ashrams. Those guys got thousands and the rest had to pay the debt. Lila really is something, isn't it?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:17:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The 50k payoff
Message:
Did someone really say that, gerry? Did they use their real name in the post? Did they say who paid them and how they were paid?

How are you?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:40:02 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi sweetie...
Message:
Yes,someone made that statement on LG. I'm thinking perhaps it was Carlos, but I'm not sure. I hope he can correct me and point to the proper source if I am wrong.

Bien, y tu?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:04:24 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: TF-Great question,MD-perfect answer nt
Message:
qq
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:18:29 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Two Feet
Subject: Another great post TF
Message:
Haven't you heard, M is going to convert the Malibu shack into an old folks home for pensionless premies. How arrogant to belittle someone's future financial security when he has amassed his fortune from just such pronouncements. Good analysis TF.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:08:25 (GMT)
From: it_IS-so
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: shuttle posting
Message:
are you jumping from one forum to the other to keep up with the time?

I know I am [I confess]. And it sucks right? I mean here you are reading something and someone says somethinge about someotherplace that is somewhere else all together. So you click on your favorite or short cut or what ever else you go to get there. Well I had enought of that. So I made my on little invention for shortcuts. Here it is,

Short Cutlett

I made this my home page. Now if am reading f5 and someone mention some other forum, all I do is click on home, chose the forum or the site I want and go there instead of having to figure out where in my favorite it is. Even Charles Glass-Snot is there. Oh by the way Charles Glass-Snot has been elected as the official independent voice of EV, heeeeehaaaaaaaa. Check ELK.
[sheesh ELK is not in the list], but I will be nice to you, here it is

Enjoying Life with Snot

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:03:00 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: it_IS-so
Subject: shuttle posting
Message:
Thanks!!
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:14:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: it_IS-so
Subject: Okay I voted
Message:
The majority votes so far are: 36% want a new site. 38% want it to express their opinions and 38% want it only moderately moderated. Moderation being the operative word in both senses of the word.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 13:14:11 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: thank you, here is a lolli
Message:
actually if you add up everything and split the voters that obstaned or where not sure you will find that the ratio is 65% to 35%. The only thing is that a lot more people visited the page and did not vote, why? I don't really know.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:17:47 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Awesome work, me ol' dungi mate!! Thanks.
Message:
but didn't vote -- the recent swirl of seemingly interminable ex politics are only reminding me why I dislike politics in general so much nowadays. Imagine swirled peas!

what a tangled web - anyway, thanks for your cool work and idea for untangling it all.

Good on you, Salam! [raising a bottle of ale in toast]

Peace and lentils,

your lil' dungi buddy,

such

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:31:10 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Cool Salam....Thanks!! n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:20:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cool Salam....Thanks!!
Message:
Nice to be appreciated. Now I feel all important :)

I will be adding other links as I go eventually, and am trying to get the bugger to work with netscape.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:35:14 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the brouhaha right now
Message:
this is a letter I sent to another EP that , when i finished it, I wanted to post here, as well.
these are some of my sentiments about the current uproar:

i agree with you, about the present uproar. i am absolutely disgusted that Jim Heller did what he did. His lawyering tricks really fucked him up this time. What a waste of a man's work and potential.

I see why brian had to do what he did, and in all this uproar, i don't see anyone talking about the actions of Bazza, pilfering FA mail for Jim and putting it in his hands. How is it Bazza is getting off so easy, in all this? I mean to post something to that effect.

Heller has really shit himself by doing all the things he's done. As a lawyer, his reputation is repulsively stained to hell.

First he writes to Glasser at his new york law offices, one attorney to another, and implies by insinuation that he speaks for all the ex premies, by using words such as 'we and us and the ex premies'.
that was strike one.

Glasser does the natural thing, and writes to the webmaster, asking if jim represents us, as retained legal counsel. that's logical, from one lawyer to another.

Brian is truthful and replies to glasser that no, jim speaks only for himself. Then he goes a bit further than necessary, and confides in his own outspoken style to Glasser what he personally thinks about jim. heller had it coming, he can't feign surprise after all these years of invective. you get back what you give. goes around/comes around, etc.

Then either Bazza sees the correspondence and gets it to Jim, using his lingering FA mailbox password, or Jim asked him to do so, to give JIm the filched mailing from Brian to Glasser. Jim knew damned well that ethically he ought to refuse to accept to receive, or view the purloined correspondence. If he had any honor, he would have. But no, he seized upon it. Strike two.
Right there, he shit himself. He could have saved it there. But he comitted himself with that act.

He damned well knew it was a violation, because he tried to conceal his possession of the mail--strike three--
and then attempted with his courtroom tactics to manipulate Katie or Brian to post its contents, as he knew was the only legal right anyone had to make it public.
strike four.

Not only did he challenge them to disclose the contents of the letter to Glasser he dissembled not to have, but he dishonestly tried to up the peer pressure, and draw all the other ex's into his maneuvers, to get Katie or Brian to reveal the letter's contents, by implying with inference and implication that the letter had made unflattering statements about ALL the ex's--strike five--when he knew that there were no such references in the letter--strike six.

but he tripped himself. It backfired on him. He asked katie in such a way, publicly, that she nabbed him by his own wording at his concealment.
strike seven.
His challenges made it visible that he already knew what was in the letter, which by all rights, had ethics been kept, he should not have known.

and despite his operating concept, from court, that only the author of the letter has the right to make its contents known to the public, he was further embarassed by another, better schooled observer, who corrected that impression, by citing that sent mail is considered to belong to the one it is written to, as is a gift sent to someone, not to the writer of it.--which is why the postal service will not give you back a letter you have already mailed, and why you pretty much cannot unsend an email after you have dispatched it to your intended recipient. Omar Khayam said it centuries ago:
'the moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on; nor all your piety, nor all your wit, can stop nor change a word of it'.
strike eight.

And when Brian defends his actions, and the FA goes public and explains his actions, people start huffing off and leaving. Threats/warnings, all of them quite potentially real, are openly made, that the forum, the site, or both, could be taken out of existence by the decision of the man wh makes it possible in its present form.
Or Jim can be banned.
strike nine. or ninth inning, game over, sudden death.

And I still don't see Bazza getting his due in all this, first for outing Charles Glasser to the forum, and then subsequently supplying JIm with the correspondence from Brian to Glasser.

Meanwhile the premies are cheering and rejoicing at the disarray, failing to grasp that this is how it looks when a group refuses to tolerate dishonesty and shifty maneuvers committed in their name or with their illicitly 'borrowed', hard earned legitimacy,--by a practicing attorney, no less-- and demands housecleaning in public, when it is discovered. They don't yet get the contrast, between EV's filthy habits and practices of concealing everything dishonestly, and presenting their 'synchronized' front to the world and to their drones, and the radically visible and different commitment of EPO, to explode all such dirty and dishonest moves for all to see and judge, even and especially if it turns out to be one of their 'own'.

So the losing team sulks and tantrums and storms off the field, sore, not at the loss of the game, but over the discovery, judgement, sentencing and barring from the game of one of their once celebrated star players for cheating-- not recognizing that the game is greater than any one player within it, and that the purity of the engagement has been saved at the expense of one of the players within it who broke the rules---

and the spectators riot in the stands and in the streets, lost in the tumult of the moment, at the perceived win, in exultation at the ejected star's downfall, and don't recognize that it is their own neighborhood, their own world, they are vandalizing and reducing to rubble.

Pete Rose comes to mind. So does Mike Tyson. Or the watergate hearings. Or any capitol punishment occasion when the crowds gather to mark when an infamous figure goes to the chamber for the last time.

The vindictive rejoicing in the short run eclipses the gravity of the real significance in the long run.

the popular mob, Valuing the wrong thing, in the face of the right.

and humanity is the poorer for it.

do you mind if i post this? i didnt know it would come out so strong.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 00:38:18 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: catastrophe or opportunity
Message:
I think the symbol for the word 'crisis' in Chinese is a combination of two other word symbols, since there is no actual word for 'crisis' in Chinese.

The two word symbols used to symbolize 'crisis' are 'catastrophe'
and 'opportunity'. That seems to be what a crisis is, the cross-roads where these two energies meet.

Maybe you all think that I ought to be the one of the most vociferous voices praising Jim's banning. I am not. Rather, I see this as a tremendous opportunity for him to finally back off from his whole abusive shtick and take a walk around himself and check himself out. If he did that and came out a better person for it, never forsaking his beliefs or ideas about things, but with a more civilized way of being who he is, this could be a positive turning point for alot of things on the Forum. He would not lose face but rather save and enhance face by taking the high road, not just to stay on the forum, but to really finally give others the same respect that he so badly demands and needs.

I do not propose a verbal or behavioral castration, nothing of the kind. I do propose a set of guidelines that we all have to abide by which will protect the basic tenets of common decency for anyone and everyone who comes here, all thge while allowing for frank and open discussion and dilog about 'anything and everything', as stated in the forum introduction. For those who wish to act outside those guidelines, there are many other places on the internet they can go. I have suggested this before and I am suggesting it again now. The role of the FA would be to make sure that if anyone crosses that line, they are either told to back off, or after three strikes, they are out...or something like that.

I believe that everything happens for a reason. This is no exception. We are all learning from this experience. This can be a catastrophe or an opportunity, it all depends how we play it. I would refer us all to my previous posts about raising the standards around here, and also to Mark's post about same.

People
Eventually
All
Cop to
Everything

Nobody
Obnoxious
Wins

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:32:42 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Big Pic: exes' Integrity vs. cult's Dishonesty?(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 11:14:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the brouhaha right now
Message:
Janet; read my post titled A major contradiction on The free EX-PREMIE Forum because there's a major contradiction here that would need to be clarified if people want to pursue this.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:35:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the brouhaha right now
Message:
Janet,
Thank you so much for writing this. I admire your guts. If we can't behave honorably, how can we judge M for being dishonorable? Thank you.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:32:04 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now
Message:
Hi janet,

I'd like to discuss these points you brought up.

i agree with you, about the present uproar. i am absolutely disgusted that Jim Heller did what he did. I see why brian had to do what he did,...

Can you shed some light on this statement?

****************************************************************
His lawyering tricks really fucked him up this time. What a waste of a man's work and potential and in all this uproar,

His lawyering skills did not fuck him up, how could that be? How do your skills fuck you up. No. Only other people's insecure reactions to his skills could of fucked them up.

****************************************************************
i don't see anyone talking about the actions of Bazza, pilfering FA mail for Jim and putting it in his hands.

Now, that's a very good point. Let's talk about that one. I addressed in one of my many flaming responses today. Bazza stole the info---he just gave it to Jim. Jim's hassling of Katie & Brian was, at that point, understandable. He knew, whether by ethical means or not, what they did. What THEY did is what is seriously under scrutiny. Jim was trying to reveal what the EPO webmaster was doing and when I find out I was disgusted. Jim, Katie and Brian or any other person (ex or not) don't have to get along. But we ALL need to know that EPO is going to sell us down the river if they don't like our feedback.

****************************************************************
Heller has really shit himself by doing all the things he's done. As a lawyer, his reputation is repulsively stained to hell.

I live in Victoria, Jim has not tarnished his 'lawyer' reputation. On the contrary. It's your view of his reputation as a person, maybe. But not as an attorney. Interestingly, some of his neighbours know more about M then premies or exes on this forum. Really, it amuses me.

Don't forget: Jim also made an executive decision when he posted the letter, he knew what he was doing and more importantly WHY. He's not only a lawyer but a honest and true EX-Premie who doesn't believe in selling all of our souls to Glasser. It's principle - not school yard fight.

****************************************************************
Regarding strike One:

First he writes to Glasser at his new york law offices, one attorney to another,and implies by insinuation that he speaks for all the ex premies, by using words such as 'we and us and the ex premies'.

Yes, well he does speak for us all...I personally have my posts displayed. His figure of speech is appropriate he was talking about the 'all' and not about 'him' . You may have the beginning of a point here, but you will have to expound on it first and ask others if they interpreted the same message.

****************************************************************

Glasser does the natural thing, and writes to the webmaster, asking if jim represents us, as retained legal counsel. that's logical, from one lawyer to another.

Janet, I'm not a lawyer and I can tell you it was a BLUFF. This was not a sophisticated inquisiton from a powerful man. Did the correspondance get mailed on legal letterhead. NO. It was a wimpy premie legally-unsophisticated shot in the dark. He just asked a sucker who buckled, someone who Mistakingly took it at powerful legalese. Glasser's a clown. He's nobody. He's blowing stale air up his arse. Do you really think Glasser had any semblance of a legal case. You're a smart cookie, Janet, tell me what YOU think. I'm interested. I'm also bias, I could take on Glasser without a law degree.

****************************************************************

...told Glasser what he personally thinks about jim. heller had it coming, he can't feign surprise after all these years of invective. you get back what you give. goes around/comes around, etc.

Katie--would you sleep with the enemy? This wasn't a comment to another ex-premie. It was to Glasser! Brian hurt all of US, not Jim. He's not wounded. This is shadow boxing, you can't get a black eye, only a bruised ego. We're in CyberSpace! Ground control to Major Tom...

****************************************************************

Strike two is handled in above comments:

Let's hang Brian out to dry FIRST for saying a comment that hurt all of us. That's the reason Jim had to expose Brian. Do you think I want a WebMaster with shit for brains!

****************************************************************

Your strike Three is redundent, you just broke up Strike 2. Let's move on.

****************************************************************

Strike four, five, and six are not seperate: You just elaborate or repeat a point but they are not DISTINCT points so I'll handle it together.

and then attempted with his courtroom tactics to manipulate Katie or Brian to post its contents, as he knew was the only legal right anyone had to make it public.

Actually, if we go back, we'll see that Jim asked them to divulge letter, they refused. Then he asked them if any thing was written about them. They hedged. This hedging caused Jim to go for the throats, which is appropriate if (and only if-I'll admit) you agree that Brian acted in not only poor but destructive taste in a manner that he was not authorized. What is the purpose of this forum? I keep thinking this rhetorical question? But apparently it is not.

****************************************************************

...by implying with inference and implication that the letter had made unflattering statements about ALL the ex's-

it wasn't an erroneous implication--I furiously agree that Brian damaged us all. He's an asshole to vent his opinion to Glsser under the circumstance. Shit Janet! This is Glasser we're talking about. If you don't believe that Jim was right about the damage it would cause ALL of us. Read the forum. This sensationalism is due to Brian's action and maligned judgement.

****************************************************************

Strike seven: This is not a fact or strike

****************************************************************

He asked katie in such a way, publicly, that she nabbed him by his own wording at his concealment.

From my point of view, he nabbed her. He put up against the wall, a task in which she willingly challenged. Even if your perception is right, being nabbed is not a strike. It's a consequence.

****************************************************************

Strike Eight:

he was further embarassed by another, better schooled observer,

Don't keep me in suspense :}

****************************************************************

By the way, I do like the Omar Khayam insertion. He's so cool!

Okay, enough niceties, ... let's back to your post.

****************************************************************

And when Brian defends his actions, and the FA goes public and explains his actions, people start huffing off and leaving. Threats/warnings, all of them quite potentially real, are openly made, that the forum, the site, or both, could be taken out of existence by the decision of the man who makes it possible in its present form. Or Jim can be banned. strike nine. or ninth inning, game over, sudden death.

People, (not just Jim), but PEOPLE telling Brian, JHB, and Katie that they were wrong. What threats? What warnings? Oh shit, I missed them, you're having more fun than me. Can you mention the posts and I'll look them up.

And yes, Brian may have blown it this time, people are pointing that out to him. Yes, they are predicting the outcome, quite accurately and deciding to take their valuable time, energy, incentive, determination, dignity, etc. somewhere where a Traitor will not destroy their diligent efforts. I had no idea Brian could or actually would exercise such a futile form of revenge.

****************************************************************

janet you are arguing against Brian when you say:

Meanwhile the premies are cheering and rejoicing at the disarray, failing to grasp that this is how it looks when a group refuses to tolerate dishonesty and shifty maneuvers committed in their name or with their illicitly 'borrowed', hard earned legitimacy,--by a practicing attorney, no less-- and demands housecleaning in public, when it is...

Premies are not laughing for the reasons you claim. Remember they think we're just Hate and Anger. What would they EXPECT a Hate/Anger club to you. Perhaps enoy our new found minds, instincts, dreams, hopes, memories, or maybe have Latvian nights and have a good time and keep each other's sense of humour in tack and perhaps (God forbid) Fall in Love.

That's silly...they think this is a victory for them because they're STUPID Denial-Ridden fanatics who couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag. BRAIN-DEAD, worst case scenarios, CONFUSED if they're lucky.

****************************************************************

They don't yet get the contrast, between EV's filthy habits and practices of concealing everything dishonestly....

They don;t get ANYTHING! Let alone Contrasts! Where have you been? You are reading into their sensibilities and crediting them with layers of critical thinking they can only dream of one day retaining. Sophistication is not their strong suit, at this time, anyhow. Not until they lose the Maha BigHead and say fuck you to the BigLie.

****************************************************************

So the losing team sulks and tantrums and storms off the field, sore, not at the loss of the game, but over the discovery, judgement, sentencing and barring from the game of one of their once celebrated star players for cheating-- not recognizing that the game is greater than any one player within it, and that the purity of the engagement has been saved at the expense of one of the players within it who broke the rules---

See, all of these comments come from the a-priouri reasoning that Jim was wrong. Now, if you see that Brian was wrong, the tables reverse. People are not leaving sore, they're leaving pissed, pissed and disgusted at Brian. Not sore that the celebrity player is gone. Jim's departure is a warning sign, it's FIGHT not FLIGHT.

****************************************************************

and don't recognize that it is their own neighborhood, their own world, they are vandalizing and reducing to rubble.

Actually, everyone recognizes that except the WebMaster and the WebMistress.

****************************************************************

Your Pete Rose and Tyson analogies ddidn't cut it, but this statement does:

The vindictive rejoicing in the short run eclipses the gravity of the real significance in the long run.

However, the short term victory is for Brian, Katie, JHB, and of course all the co-dependent premies and worst of all for the BigHead. The exes that leave are leaving to insure that someone like Brian never fucks up the stakes and years and years of hard work ever again.

****************************************************************

So in summary Janet, some of your comments are valid, if and only if you take the stance that Jim is the bad guy. Other points are redundant and others irrelevant.

If you the damage as a result of Administration (after all this whole thing would of been different if B & K had cooled their heels, and communicated with Jim before publically posting their anger and accusations. But they didn't. They had warnings that Jim wasn't going to let this go, but engaged in public debate about something they Knew they had fucked up. It was Katie's nightmare to realize tho REALIZE Jim already knew, but yet she and Brian played it out on forum anyways. Premies will have their apparent short-term victories but we'll see who wins when the smoke clears.

No offense to you for your opinion. I realize that you and Jim have been butting heads, but you have put this post out for scrutiny. Meanwhile, have a good day! And thanks for a previous compliment, it was appreciated.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:15:01 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now
Message:
Deb:

Don't forget: Jim also made an executive decision when he posted the letter, he knew what he was doing and more importantly WHY. He's not only a lawyer but a honest and true EX-Premie who doesn't believe in selling all of our souls to Glasser. It's principle - not school yard fight.

OK, same test that I've applied to Maharaji many times: show me an instance where Jim offers up his own interests for 'principle?' One instance where he doesn't attack a weaker opponent, just because he can and he's bored. One situation where he's used something other than aggression to get anything done, when there was the least temptation to act aggressively. I'm willing to have my eyes opened on this one, but I've been waiting for over four years and haven't seen it happen once. Maybe I missed it when I blinked.

--Scott

Hint: With this assignment you might develop some sympathy for Catweasel.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 03:32:27 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now
Message:
Hi Scott T.

Listen you argued your opinion about Jim quite cogently.

Perhaps on one hand I am a lot like him, perhaps on the other, I don't have the history of various posts and extrapulating the quality of the posts to the past is in my poorer judgement.

But in all fairness, I MUST acknowledge that behaviour since I've witnessed since I've been posting for 7 weeks is relitively valid.

What I have observed is people's refusal to accept the challenge or avoid his debate, and unfortunately, to their own demise. Because I'm a strong advocate of critical thinking and willingly accept a challenge (even if I fall on my face, it happens). These challenges are a part of life, but not welcomed by most prems and non-prems alike.

I for one, have to learn to handle the challenges of the flaming prems. I fail drastically. Shit, I crash and burn.

Then like a Phoenix, I arise from the fuckin ashes to Rule once again. We're different people, eh?

Thanks for the feedback, I've stopped challenging. Some of my points are relevant, others not. OH Well!

BUT! don't ever ask me to accept the challenge and virtuosity of CW again. I have NO respect for him, at all. Never will. He crossed unforgivable lines, Scott.

..... yuuucckkkkkk...yuuucckkkkkk...and more yuuucckkkkkk

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:33:03 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now
Message:
thanks for the thoughtful dissection. When I wrote this, I was only reflecting on Jim's ations, to the recipient i was writing to. I was basically ruminating out loud to see if it had jelled for me yet--and so far, only about Jim.

I haven't yet tackled trying to express what I feel about Brian's actions.

I agree, that when I heard his way of communicating to Charles Glasser re. his personal view of Jim, I was apalled. I do realize that part of the struggle we are engaged in, here, is the recovery and re emergence of being individuals again, and of honoring and encouraging others we engage with to respond as individuals, and not as the mindless, fuzzy, boundary-erased cult members that we were all brainwashed into believing we were in the cult. It is a constant discipline to remember that the ultimate release from the perniciousness of that experience is to reattain remembering that each of us is a sovereign individual, ourselves, and that everyone we address is a sovereign individual, unique in their own right. Our cult conditioning and our ancient mammal mob/herd/clan/tribe/family instincts still impel us to revert to the Us/Them mentality out of reflex, habit or dna legacy. it is a lower form of consciousness we have to practice desistance with.

Brian as an individual in his own right had every reason and right to convey to Charles Glasser what he personally thought and felt about Jim Heller, based on years of personal friction and disagreement. Had none of us ever been in a cult, the exchange would have meant nothing to any of us. Opinions are ideed like assholes, in that everyone has one and others are free to regard the issuance therefrom as shit, with the codicil that even so, without shitting and an asshole, we would all die of our backed up waste and toxins, and the earth would not get back the used, extra, organic material by which it renews the circle of life and insures that the web of ecology goes on supporting everything in its niche.
so even the most odious contribution is an indispensible part of the whole, without which, it would all die out and end for all.


that said, we ARE a collective. We are the ex premies. and we are unique individuals. Charles Glasser is a unique individual as well. And he, too, is a member of a collective, ie, the premies right now. Brian is his own individual, and he is one of our collective. Charles is an individual, and one of a collective.
So what Brian did is a conflict. it was personally valid and ok, but heinous from the collective's vantage point.
which is the higher goal? homogenaity of the collective, or individual truth and honesty?

after our experience in cotton brain premieland,
we all bridle at the familiar attempts to lump us into a group. so brian's response should have been no shock, in truth. ordinary people do it every day. and we are trying to get our normalcy back. you have to walk your talk, to get sane.

but it did shock.
only because our old conditioning is yanking our chains. belong,. defend. band together.show a united front. close ranks. protect.

well--isnt that what we despise about elan vital, and lampoon about the premies? and the leader's pathetic efforts to keep it smooth and seamless, when by definition, individuals are different and no two people can see the world the same at the same time? They look so fake and dishonest precisely because they are trying to maintain an illusion that reality doesn't support. And we exist to defy them and call them on it, and expose it to them- and for them, and about them.

Brian as a person, as an individual, who does his own thinking, when asked by another individual, had to be himself. He couldnt be anything else.

I haven't even gotten to coalescing my sentiments about Glasser, but i must say, both he and Jim have proven out the reasons why lawyers are so reviled by the general public, as a class. Between their identical lawyering habits: of talking politely and unoffensively, when it suits their purposes, and then letting fly, with the most lying, dissembling, dishonest, repulsive descriptions of posters, in the blink of an eye, i have grounds of which to despise both of them. And I mean personally, as individuals, as men, for their comportment--not for how i veiw them as representative of their collectives--because i do not. They have soiled themselves only.

It matters not that they are on seemingly opposite sides of the argument or issue. Never forget what Mark Twai dryly noticed:
'One lawyer in a town, can't make a living.
But two, can'.

...
The only attorney who hasn't disgraced herself here is MariAnne Bachers. And given her exemplary comportment and self governance, I never expect her to.

...

I a gaoing to continue to watch and reflect and muse on what is happening here, as I can name it, but at this point, i am far from a final conclusion on it.

It's a disaster. But periodic explosions like this come due and blast open new roads, and usually what emerges is healthier and stronger and better than before.

I am not leaving. This is too important. The dialog, the discussion, the effort, must continue.

Again--thanks for the thoughtful dissection. If more jells, I'll voice it in the future as i grasp it.

Katie and Brian couldnt have been otherwise, without betraying their own sense of self. I wouldnt have asked it of them to do so. Self is the prize we are trying to reclaim.

On the other hand, I still feel Jimm fucked himself. He needn't have. The man has great talent and potential, but he repeatedly fails to work on his worst blind spots and weaknesses. And this time, he shit himself. He initiated the contact to Glasser, he dissembled, he put on false impressions and he knew it, he received stolen mail not meant for his eyes and he knew it,--and the whole roster of violations I delineated above.

Sorry. at this juncture, I find Jim guilty, not brian.
brian's was a misdemeanor, that called for a warning and a correction.
JIm's was a felony, meriting arrest, sentencing and punishment for deliberate crimes.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:27:24 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thank you - You responded intelligently
Message:
janet, i was very impressed with your careful articulation to the dissection of your post.

I agree that we are individuals and I would like to reinstate the fact that I have been removed (physically and spiritually) from the Cult-think for over 10 yrs. However, I don't believe that Katie & Brian have the right to steer their personal agendas in spite of the intended purpose of this site.

You're absolutely Right. They are individuals, but they acted on BEHALF of the whole Group.

I don't know if you have read Jim's post on AG last night, but it turns out Brian told Bazza upon his departure that he believes EX-PREMIE.ORG should be for premies.

Now, I am going to start a thread asking people whether we should allow Brian to switch horses but KEEP EX-PREMIE.org

He didn't start EPO. Jim did. And I don't think people know about Brian's intended purpose of turning this into a HOWARD JOHNSONS for skeptical premies.

Premies did not gather, write, edit, and post the formiddable plethora of M damaging evidence. If we leave, and let the baby have his bottle, all this info is for naught. Maybe we should ask JM if he did all this for the premie TALK-EASY.

It's OK for me to agree to disagree about some of the political biases. I'm a big girl. And I admire your intelligence.

However keep in mind that the idealism of your philosophy has inherent leaks in this cult/mahabighead reality. If this philosophy was shared by the other side (Premies) we wouldn't be debating this out.

Cheers :} Have a good day. Thanks for bieng civil. I look forward to more of your posts.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:33:31 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thank you - You responded intelligently
Message:
Deborah:

I don't know if you have read Jim's post on AG last night, but it turns out Brian told Bazza upon his departure that he believes EX-PREMIE.ORG should be for premies.

I seriously doubt that this is anything other than spinning up what someone else says out of context, to make himself look good. You know it, and I know it, and it says more about the innards of the person saying it than about Brian, who is probably about as whacky as they come. Brian presents the exes with a dilemma, but it's not an extraordinary one and it's resolvable through conventional means. We should be discussing that as a completely separate issue, while trying not to drop off to sleep.

Of course the forum should be for premies. There's therapeutic value in discussing this among ourselves of course, but beyond that what's the grist for this mill if it isn't those odd ideas that premies harbor about their lord? I mean, leave the premies out and we'll be discussing evolution and Rick Nelson.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:15:58 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Forum for exes/EPO for premies
Message:
Deborah,

The forum is primarily for ex-premies, but the information on the EPO website is primarily for wavering premies, aspirants, and other outsiders to know the truth about Maharaji. That's what Brian meant.

Now how can you disagree with this? Although the info on EPO is of interest for exes, it is much more relevant for premies.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:45:10 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Forum for exes/EPO for premies - yes, John
Message:
But the forum has to be laissez faire like Forum Six or else free speech rights and dissent is squashed.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 06:10:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Couldnt be more wrong Pat...nt
Message:
sdfsdfg
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:22:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Forum for exes/EPO for premies - yes, John
Message:
Like I said to Dave, I have doubts about whether this would work, but we can only try it and see:-)

John the doesn't do laissez-faire at home

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:28:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I'd like to work with you n Dave to reach a happy
Message:
medium. Three should be enough to get all POVs and not go back to either anything goes (over the top IMO) or too authoritarian approach. What say?
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:45:47 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Looks like there may be a vacancy for an FA
Message:
I may have too many other responsibilities - you know, chopping down trees, that sort of thing.

John the chainsaw massacre.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:50:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Let's split the work load
Message:
I'm too busy too to do full time FAing but Dave's also offered and we can definitely work something out. Just let's look into the practical details of splitting the administration of Forum Six from EPO to avoid further conflicts of interest.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 06:11:52 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You need to rethink this issue.,,,,,nt
Message:
asdfasdf
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:56:49 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: 'political biases' vs imitation of cult deceit?(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:56:27 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: janet
Subject: Dissing Jim to Charles, Answer to Richard
Message:
Your post at the start of this thread shows that you have a very sharp mind. I haven't seen anyone able to describe recent events here so clearly, and my own attempts to do that here have either gone unheard in the uproar or (far more often) have been colored by an anger that resurfaces every time I tried.

I spoke very sharply about Jim in that email. My words expressed my own opinion of him as a person. My opinion grew from the years that I've battled with Jim over his use of the forum to rally 'group' pressure against Katie and I to force us to conform to his personal beliefs rather than to our own - and to attack us personally for refusing to yield to the 'group', while offering 'logical' justifications for others in the 'group' to join in the attacks.

Standing up to 'group' pressure to conform to 'group' beliefs that we don't personally share was as draining on us in the past as it has been recently when faced with his newest use of that same tactic - a tactic which he still continues to apply from AG.

The main objection that I see here to my having shared my own views in email to Charles is the mistaken beliefs that I belong to any 'group' which believes that Charles is 'our enemy', and that I was speaking for anyone other than myself. At no time did I fall into using false plurals ('us', 'we') to misrepresent my own views as being held by anyone other than Katie and myself.

I am not the 'leader' of any 'group' posting on this forum - whether people are wandering around in life looking for a 'leader' or not.

The angry and hateful views expressed on the forum lately regarding premies in general are not views that I share, and none of you speak for me here in any capacity when you voice your own personal opinions on anything.

Moreover, it's the fact that while the outraged 'group' of current forum users DON'T share my views and yet I am seen as being in implicit 'agreement' in the eyes of people like Charles with views that I don't share that influenced my decision to STRONGLY AND ACCURATELY describe to Charles the gap between Jim Heller and myself - fully realising that the 'group' has repeatedly expressed personal views which gave Charles no reason to trust me in the first place.

Charles had every reason to perceive me as being the 'ring-leader' of a group of people hostile to his beliefs, which gathers on a forum administered by an 'FA' who had threatened him with jobsite harrassment for posting here, which contains members who were at that very same time carrying out that harrassment threat, and which was in complete agreement with the self-appointed 'leader' who DID profess to speak for them on this forum through the deliberate use of false plurals - Jim Heller.

Charles had every reason to percieve me as being the sort of person who would betray email trust by putting his email in the hands of a person like Jim Heller.

Charles had every reason to distrust my personal assurances to him that I DON'T represent anyone but myself, that Jim Heller doesn't represent me in any manner at all, or that Charles could trust both me and John to keep his emails confidential.

Charles had every reason to NOT be surprised when his cautious and very-hard-earned trust was betrayed openly on this same forum when Jim Heller DID post a portion of Charles' email that DID fall into his hands.

In the face of what DID happen, I don't care if anyone here objects to my having warned Charles in any words available that this was something that I beleived Jim Heller to be capable of doing.

The backlash that I have faced on the forum since that portion of Charles' confidential email was printed here is one of outrage from people that I would DARE to express my honest - and totally accurate - views of Jim Heller to Charles. A view that they mistakenly, in MY opinion, do not share.

And Janet, you are the only person not directly involved in the attempt to undo the damage done by Jim's actions who has shown a willingness to honestly piece together the recent events which only served to prove again to me that my expressed views of Jim are completely accurate - whether they are shared by the 'group' or not.

I have seen nothing happen here in the last few weeks to sway me from my 'outrageous' personal belief that Jim Heller is a loudmouth and a trouble-maker.

And Richard - regarding your earlier question asking if Katie and I would accept an apology from Jim, I can only speak for myself. I've seen nothing on AG to cause me to believe that he is at all sorry for what he's done or that he will ever change...

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:48:28 (GMT)
From: bill-when there ar e no
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: consequences, there is no freedom......nt
Message:
dfsdg
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:47:04 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Property is theft
Message:
it is also freedom (not many people know the full quote from Prince Kropotkin).

I think it is very loaded to put it about that an email was stolen. I've explained why in my Ho! Ho! Very Satirical post.

JohnT
- everyone went

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:47:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Resonse to your version of brouhaha right now
Message:
Deborah,
Please stop speaking for everyone in your post. I don't see it the way you see it it all. Speak for yourself please. Brian certainly didn't hurt me so please don't say he hurt all of us, or that Jim speaks for all of us. Jim does nto speak for me, ever. Please, we are all individuals and apparently all have differing opinons about this brouhaha. Don't lump me into your generalizations. I left the cult many many years ago.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:52:13 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I was arguing to the 'other side' of J's comments
Message:
But your point is well taken.

It's hard to think of everyone when you get going. I was simply trying to argue for Jim where Janet was arguing for Brian.

But I didn't notice a friendly reminder to her. Why is that?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:13:30 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I was arguing to the 'other side' of J's comments
Message:
Because as far as I can see she is addressing the ethical issues here instead of taking the stance that premies are the enemy and so whatever we do to them is okay.

I see now, after your explanation, that you were taking the other side in your post, that you were speaking figuratively. I am just livid right now, sorry I didn't mean to take it out on you.
I have limited my involvement here alot over the past year and it's been a long time since something here got me so riled. I can't get so involved with this place, it's not a productive use of my time. Take care
Helen

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Please repost on Forum Six -Free Expremie Forum
Message:
Not everyone can reply to it as at least one contender has been silenced. But you made some very valid points in your usual dramatic style.

Over on Forum Six - the Free Expremie Forum you would not have to say ''do you mind if i post this? i didnt know it would come out so strong.''

Over there you can post whatever you like because no one has any authority other than their influence and reputation, as is the right and proper way on the laissez faire internet.

There is a conflict of interest in having EPO and FV together. This can stifle dissent. Sir Dave has come up with a very sensible solution. Let's just get on with the solution and kiss and make up. Lots of people including me made mistakes.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:24:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Message delivery service
Message:
Jim says,

'Would someone plese tell Janet to shut the fuck up?

Here's what she's saying in her new post on the Forum:

First he writes to Glasser at his new york law offices, one attorney to another, and implies by insinuation that he speaks for all the ex premies, by using words such as 'we and us and the ex premies'.

She's dreaming. As I posted before -- twice now -- here's what I actually said:

Charles,

That's a wonderful piece of work you've put together there. And you're a real attorney and everything, huh?

Interesting .....

Jim Heller

The last few times I confronted Janet on anything (her enlightenment ideas, her fealty to that feminist snake, whats-her-name) she's run away rather than discuss it any further. So now I'm blocked and she's going to town. Funny.'

He is on AG, in case you want a wrestling match.
Oops that was part of the message.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:07:52 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Return to sender
Message:
Hi Salam
Tell Jim that this is one way for people to use the forum. They disagree- but they are speaking to each other without the shut the flucks up et all. And it is interesting BECAUSE they can have the debate without gladiatoring.

So far its is civil-- and he can learn something by just the first few posts in this trread -- about STYLE of debate.

this may not be the best opportunity to assimilate it - because it is Jim they are talking about - but he could try.

they are using their intellect to discuss the points- not brawn.

tis lovely and how exs should be allowed to speak to each other without interruption.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:40:13 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Sorry, closed today
Message:
Hey, you go and tell him.

And get off my back.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:09:24 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the brouhaha right now
Message:
This is the only detailed, accurate and reasonably objective summary I've seen. I wish you'd post it on 'the free ex-premie forum' (new name of 'anything Goes', same old url) & 'Lifes Great'. Lotta disinformation & speculation being distributed there.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:47:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: clh
Subject: feel free to take it over in total.Šjanet schwartz
Message:
i dont feel like running out the door and rushing off to the latest trendy hangout, down the block. I'm comfortable here, and someone's got to stay and watch the place. we might get customers.

if you copy it , put in the Š and copy it in its entirety, please.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:15 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks for the score card janet
Message:
I agree with clh, this is a reasonably objective summary of what went down. I was hoping someone would post a Cliff's Notes version of the hesaid/shesaid and you seem to have done it. The only thing missing now is Jim as designated hitter. A post from FA today said Jim could return if he apologized to K&B and promised to keep it civil. I offered to post Jim's answer if he sent it via email but so far nada. I asked Brian if he would accept Jim's apology but my post wasn't replied to.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:51:40 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks. we can't rush their growth. we wait.
Message:
and continue in the way in which we believe we should.

your appreciation means much to me, richard.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 05:48:01 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks for the score card janet -----OT
Message:
are you the same richards that runs the site for the ex mugs shot with a new idea, if you know what I mean.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:59:15 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Yes Salam, that's me OT
Message:
And I think you've already emailed me about that.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:00:10 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Deborah and Janet
Subject: A real discussion !!-- great to see NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:07:32 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: what are? the keeper of the records
Message:
I said OT and am asking him a question becuase am not sure how many Richards are there.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 06:11:46 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: never mind- just a comment on the manners
Message:
in this thread -- I like it . Not sure about the richard thing- that passed me by. sorry.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 08:34:43 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: never mind- just a comment on the manners
Message:
am talking about this

Mug Shots

Don't know about the manners. Just let them work it out amongst themselves.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:20:29 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Volunteers to run ex-prem.org???
Message:
Katie wrote to me on Lifes Great Forum and I responded to her there.

Unfortunately, this post here has to be short (and sweet, I hopeJ ) as I've already written a long post respectful and mindful of all exes inluding Brian,Katie,JHB and Jim , only for my comp to freeze.
I have to sleep soon and rise in 2/3 hours so I'm rushing this.

This is all just tentative as I have no definite idea of Brian and Katie's hopes/plans. Judging from the tone and content of her post to me ,though, it seems she (Brian too?) has reached the end of her tether as regards being responsible for this site.

What is the best way for all exe s to discuss and agree upon a smooth, democratic ,successful transition IF B and K decide to call it a day?

Are there any willing and able candidates for the webmaster/FA roles?

Is it possible that out of all this murky , messy personal/emotional upheaval of the last few days that a consensus can be reached to satisfy ALL (or at least the vast majority ) of exes?

In the (unfortunately, not too near) future I'd like to be involved but it's a case of 'I would if I could but I can't'. How about others?

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:51:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: will not touch it with a bar of soap
Message:
I can probably mantain the software, but have no interest whatsoever in resolving conflicts. Of course I can turn the server off for a day or two for everyone to chill out each time the neighbors complain, daz is goot, yar?
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:48:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: My vote - let K and B do their thing and we'll do
Message:
ours over on Forum Six the Free Expremie site where the motto is caveat emptor and laissez faire. Sir Dave has come up with a good solution. Let's all kiss and make up and start partying again please. The funeral is over and I don't like post mortems.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:33:53 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: you didnt read thier posts well enough..nt
Message:
sdfgsdfg
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:44:59 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: read Katies post to me on LG Bill
Message:
Seems prety clear to me .....did you read it?
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:51:35 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: LG? Sorry, Dermot, I dont know how to access it.nt
Message:
dgdfgh
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:58:55 (GMT)
From: A non-poster
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: May banned posters volunteer..?
Message:
Or do we let MK and Catweasel thrash it out?
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:14:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who needs censorship anyway?
Message:
My forum, The free EX-PREMIE Forum (formerly the Anything Goes forum) is an experiment on what happens if there is absolutely no censorship of any kind. In the three years it's been going the only posts I've deleted are duplicates and I have not been sued nor threatened and neither have I lost any sleep over the place.

Usually in these forums the main problem is advertising spam but it's not a problem here. Most threats made on forums are empty mouthings of bored or angry people. They never carry out their threats.

Just to speculate academically; if I was the FA of a main ex-premie forum, I would FA it in exactly the same way I've done The free EX-PREMIE Forum
. I wouldn't ban people because they only come back using another ISP anyway. I would delete spam but that's about it. I certainly wouldn't read all the posts but would let other people direct me to any crap that needs deleting. Mind you, the obvious spam is easily found.

My conclusion is this: if people come to a forum that they know is theirs to speak freely on without hinderence, they respect that forum. What people don't like is censorship and authority. Neither do they like webmasters complaining about the clientelle. That really gets their backs up.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:46:04 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Would you take over the Forum V?.../nt
Message:
zzz
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:33:21 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Only in this way
Message:
I would take on the main ex-premie forum (not ex-premie.org) on these terms: that I would be solely responsible for it and not ex-premie.org. Also, I would have to delegate forum admin to some other people but I would want the bare minimum of forum admin, i.e. delete spam (which is actually a rarity) and I would run it as a free-for-all the same way as my other forum is.

I would also prefer to have a flame room where people could argue the toss about such scintillating topics as who wrote what to who several weeks ago and what exactly they meant by it etc etc.

In essence, I'm not afraid of the responsibility of it but I wouldn't run it you see. Actually, nobody would. There would just be a few guys keeping an eye on things and only occasinally intervening.

Legal problems - they could sue me if they could find my money, which they couldn't. Nobody sues over the sort of petty ''crimes'' committed here. I'd give forum admin to some of the guys who have done it in the past like Pat and Nigel if they wanted it and other people. They would just be steering miscreants to the flame room or deleting spam.

I wouldn't block premies and when people came here and tried to dig up explicit sexual details of Jagdeo like Bjorn has done, or when people make hurtful comments to abuse victims then I'd at least expect people here to put them right. Bullies are cowards and if you hit them back, they usually back off. Blockng is the very last resort and even then, it doesn't usually work.

Michel Deradune could post her beautiful satsang but she would also get the responses to read too.

Looking back on recent times, the main problem has not been the premies but has been the infighting here and general disagreement between the clientelle and the staff. In other words - we have been our own worst enemies.

If Jim goes off on one and people find it a bore then they should just tell him so. Jim does listen. Regarding the serious crimes of stolen emails and outing of premies - I think a punishment of being forced to read the whole of enjoyinglife.org should be metered out with tests to make sure you've read it all.

In short, I'll take on the ownership of the forum and be the fall guy but I won't read all the posts and do the admin. Neither will I archive the posts. Other people with more time, energy and greater attention span than mine should do that. If they start blocking all and sundry and deleting too much then I'll fire them and get someone else.

Hey, you're asking for me to take on the forum. Yes I'll do it but not on my own although I don't mind being the one responsible.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:47:05 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Only in this way--Sounds like a good way.
Message:
You see Sir Dave, I agree that there can be some semblance to order but not a MAKE-IT-UP-AS-YOU-GO type.

This argument is filled with inconsistent statements. You can't isolate one statement or thread for that matter and justify your mistakes after the fact. And this is what has happened.

Bazza pulled a fastone, gave it to Jim-who taunted Katie and Brian to have it devulged. They didn't. They shouldn't of said what they did and they know it. Bet they won't admit, but I'm beyond the point of having people validate my reality.

Your views and ideas are fine. I vote to put an online committee to vote on serious issues.

Would you have ever dissed an EX to a asshole with a debunking website that posted your emails?

Question: Did K & B give permission to have my posts there as a reconcilliation for Jim's 'Hello how are you email'

Really, Jim's email is benign. Now my emails and posts are another matter.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:02:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Now you're talking, Sir Dave
Message:
As I said to you on Forum Six - the Free Expremie Forum - caveat emptor and laissez faire is the reality of the net.

I also said on F6 no one is to blame. Let's just get on with it and kiss and make up and talk about it and fight about it but FV really needs to be separate from the current adminstration which is insufficiently liberal and there are conflicts of interest.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 03:06:52 (GMT)
From: bill-I love you but the
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: idealist ideas unfortunately dont work on humans n
Message:
asdfsad
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:32:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ex-premie Laura Davis, expert on child sex abuse
Message:
Laura Davis is an ex-premie, who I knew at COLL in San Antonio. She also lived as a premie for some time in Denver. I think she now lives in Santa Cruz. Anyhow, Laura is an expert on child sexual abuse, and is also writing books on parenting. She might be a good person to consult regarding the pedophilia in the Maharaji cult.

She has written the following books.

The Courage to Heal : A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse Allies in Healing : When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused As a Child, a Support Book -- by Laura Davis;
The Courage to Heal Workbook : For Women and Men Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse -- by Laura Davis;

Laura's bio, which does not mention the cult:

Laura Davis is a nationally known author, lecturer and workshop leader. She writes a monthly parenting column, 'Becoming the Parent I Want to Be,' which appears in papers throughout the country. She is the co-author, with Ellen Bass, of 'The Courage to Heal' and 'Beginning to Heal' and the author of 'The Courage to Heal Workbook' and 'Allies in Healing.'With Janis Keyser, she has written Becoming the Parent You Want to Be: A Sourcebook of Strategies for the First Five Years and maintains a parenting Web site. Laura is the stepmother of a young adult and the mother of a six year old and a two year old. She lives with her family in Santa Cruz, California.

She can be contacted at:

authormail@becomingtheparent.com,keyser@got.net

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 07:45:59 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ex-premie Laura Davis, expert on child sex abuse
Message:
Dear Joe,

that is amazing. The Courage to Heal is classic in the field. I've read it a few times and found it very useful.

I will definitely contact her. Just what I need. A high profile ex-premie feminist writer. Great!

I think that there is a need for a greater awareness of cults and sexual abuse.

Thanks for that Joe.

Abi

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:13:11 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ex-premie Laura Davis, expert on child sex abuse
Message:
I just sent her the following e-mail:

Hi. My name is Katie Darling, formerly Katie Baier, when I was a premie.

I knew your brother Paul quite well socially (went to his wedding). I often wonder how he is doing.

I was a therapist for many years after leaving DLM and worked with a lot of people exiting. Surprising number of people were sexually abused - more than the non-cult-member average.

I am writing because there is a big issue happening about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of many premie children for perhaps two decades. Maharaji has been avoiding and denying the whole thing, but several victims/survivors have come forth and told their tale to him and on www.ex-premie.org. Joe Whalen, who says he knew you at COLL, suggested that you might have some input that might be helpful. There is a forum on the above-mentioned website, which is often pretty wild, where the victims have posted, and their stories are preserved in various places on the site.

Many of us who post there had left for over a decade before were realized that our cult involvement was something else we might need some recovery from. Don't know if this would be true for you, but you might find the whole website quite fascinating. Turns out MJ has been a raging alcoholic since 13, and had multiple mistresses, killed a man, etc.

My name on that website is Disculta, although I am not really anonymous.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 03:49:47 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: PS
Message:
Hi Disculta,

I just wrote to Laura too.

btw I have an article coming out with a UK journal called Feminist Theory this year and when they asked for my author bio I added 'researching sexual abuse in cults'. I'm thinking of specialising in the area!

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:39:30 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: PS to Abi
Message:
Researching sexual abuse in cults.

I think it's a very interesting area. Obviously you have been horribly affected by this phenomenon, but this seems a brilliant way to turn it all around.

You know what is really weird? Way back when I was working with premies, I had several cases where people who had been sexually abused by their fathers (confirmed in a couple of cases although I believed them anyway) had very strange feelings of having been sexually abused by MJ. These were actually fantasies (I'm sure he didn't come into their rooms in the middle of the night in their home town). But it made me think about the way people who already had that wound in their 'aura' or limbic brain or whatever were experiencing MJ.

It made me think a lot about what goes on in other planes and dimensions. On one level it's projection that made these people have these experiences. But there is something subconsciously sleazy - a sort of inner planes seduction - that seemed to go on with MJ. I don't think he was conscious of it except at very simple levels of 'I put my crown and mala on and they go nuts.' I think his own alcoholism and lack of awareness about himself caused him to project all kinds of subtle messages that certain of us were hooked by. Ah! Now that I'm writing this, I am realizing that the reason I am writing it is because I was EMOTIONALLY incested myself by my father. I found it very very challenging to sort this out, over the years. Even though I'm grateful nothing overt happened, so much happened on sort of subconscious levels and it affected my life and relationships for decades, and it took a long time for me to acknowledge that something really had 'happened' even though it wasn't physical. It certainly set me up to be attracted to a distant guru who seemed to have some deep 'romantic' hold on me, in my dreams and fantasies, despite outwardly treating me like nothing.

I think a really good book on cults would look at the subtle dynamics that get set up as well as the overt sexual and other abuse that goes on.

Just thinking right now.

love Disculta who goes a bit more anon when talking about family

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:36:03 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: interesting topic
Message:
btw I just heard back from Laura Davis who was very sweet and very supportive and gave me some good ideas. I'm going to stay in touch with her. What I might do is ask someone I know who heads an big exit counselling group if he can put me onto some other people who have been emotionally and sexually abused so that I can interview them and then gather together a lot of stories and publish them as a collection with a co-authored introductory essay. It wouldn't just be about EV and Jagdeo but would be a broader analysis of the abuse issues in cults today. A sort of speaking out about cult abuse but also an educational book about the dangers of them. Years a go I met a very lost young woman who had been brought up in some wacky Hindu cult in Queensland and she said there was just loads of sexual abuse going on all the time. And we know about Sai Baba, the Krishnas, not to mention the Catholic church etc. And they are all so patriarchal too...

I was chatting to a friend of mine who was maried to a premie the other night and we were talking about the strange sexual energy that infused the cult. A few men we knew were just totally over the top freaky perverts. But really it was the whole way that Maharaji was eroticized. All the drooling over him, the foot fetish etc. It was all about divine love but somehow some strange sexual thing was projected onto him too. Maybe it's the Krishna gopi discourse that got reworked with Divine Light Mission. We were all his gopis in Holi. I don't even want to start psychoanalysing that!

I remember this essay Lacan did once which analysed an image of St Teresa in terms of the 'jouissance' or sexual pleasure she was communicating about her experience with the divine which is a very well known and influential essay. Kristeva would be another useful theorist to apply this to. I think jouissance is one way of analysing all of that strange energy but maybe on a more mundane level it was about sublimated sexual dysfunctions and odd projections. I remember this one premie woman used to just fall apart and drool about Maharaji during satsang. And the whole darshan experience had such strange sexual overtones. It was like he was the primal love object. The fainting, the mass hysteria, the shouting 'we love you maharaji' the total loss of self that happened when he danced.

I think one of the hardest things to let go of is the devotion. But what is that devotion exactly? When you look at hagology you see that so many of the saints, especially the women, had an obviously eroticised relationship to Christ. It's there in their writing. Even Simone Weil. And Christs body was in fact eroticised in so many paintings. It is about going beyond the limits of the Law, transgressing the rational and entering into the sublime. A surrender to the other who is posing as God in human form! Anyway, I do think there is murky stuff there and it's not just because of what happened to me. I just think it is part of the religious experience and I'm not the first person to say this. And I think that in cults when you have a human being pretending to be god then the dymanic gets intensified and twisted in unhealthy ways.

It took me ages to get to the stage where I could look at a photo of Maharaji and recognise that he was not in fact totally beautiful and oozing love but really just a rather short and plump man.

It is so freaky really. But there you have it: a cult.

take care

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:23:45 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sex NOT in the City
Message:
Remember when sex was condescendingly termed and 'altercation'?
How weird was that?

Living in the same cities as M was even worse. Why?

He lived there and most premies equated available with available. It all comes back to me, now.

Sexual Romances were far and few between, at least for single premies, and the results were usually dysfunctionally diastrous.

Non-sexual romances were emotionally easier to deal with, without the scars of weird behavior. Could massage each other, share satsang, do service, or party-down with blissed out premies.

Premie men were for the main part, too effeminate for my tastes. Men sappier than women were all wrong!

However, When you did find an attractive man, there were innumerous reasons why romance didn't occur.

Ashram? .........PAM?..........Too many girlfriends? .

Already married?......... Missed darshan opportunities?

Just plain dysfunctional (physically/emotionally,).......yeesh

Wait there's more:

Agya to divorce?... Agya to Marry?... ..

Agya to get the fuck out of Dallas, or the country?

Any thing else? Did I miss one?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:51:22 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sex NOT in the City
Message:
I guess I didn't really experience much of the adult stuff until much later but I certainly witnessed a lot of dysfunctional relationships going on. Drugs, peverts, flashers, crazy people on acid, neglected children, dole scams, etc. I so wanted to be with normal people.

I shared a house with some premies when I was a teenager and that was a nightmare.

Not that I think all premies are freaks or anything. I just think the cult produced a culture of indifference to basic ethics.

Hope Jim is OK.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:11:56 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Hi Abi
Message:
Yea lots of dysfunction caused by the 'concepts' that M so deplorably inspired. Wicked little man he is.

Regarding Jim:I've spoken with a couple times. He's out of here, he deleted the links on his computer, but with your permission I'll email your Farewell post.

You may have noticed that RichardII the evil-hearted showed up. He's trying to make me the bad guy because I exposed him for the horrid post he wrote. Wish people like him didn't exist.

Abi I think I met some of your gang in Miami, did you know Rikki and LoLo and Rance Berela and that gang. Did you live around 79th and Collins or know Spring.

I heard about Jagdeo back in '83 I think, I believed the story at the time, but I just didn't know what to do with it back then? It was overshadowed by everyone's bigger than life so-called experience of Knowledge. Actually, many premies didn't even practice K, they were all just lalalalaa over the BigHead.

Just want you to know I have always been a staunch defender of child abuse, not to mention sexual abuse of any age. I feel bad now I was so stupid and incompetent to respond at the time because I was such a guru-groupie.

fondly,

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 22:03:02 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hi Deborah
Message:
I spent most of my premie life in England and Australia so don't know any of the people you mentioned.

It does chill me to hear that you heard about Jagdeo in 83 and I guess I can understand why it is that so many premies back then didn't do anything. The infatuation with M etc. I think premies assumed also that something was being done perhaps. What bothers me and Susan is that there is possibly an incident we don't know about which was pretty bad.

Sounds like Jim does need a break. Pity so much bad feeling has been generated over all of this. But that's life. We all make mistakes.

take care

abi

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:32:31 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Good for you, Disculta....../n
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:20:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's Cheap Hinduism -- true then, and now
Message:
I finally got around to reading the entire Rolling Stone article from 1974 that JM has put up on the site. It's a terrific article, and very thoughtful. This is the author's (Levine) conclusion, which I thought was brilliant and completely as true today in Maharaji's cult as it was in 1974:

...What the Guru expounds is a kind of five-and-dime-store Hinduism, a cheap, easily assimilated import that denigrates individual ego and mind ('the werewolf that starts eating you up,' Maharaj Ji says in favor of a more collective consciousness). Mind is the real enemy, for it separates, makes distinctions, analyzes, and so frays the social fabric further when the need is felt to smooth it over.

There is no use trying to understand Maharaj Ji's appeal in traditional ways-in terms of his charisma, say, or the contents of his statements-because his appeal is precisely that he is so uncharismatic and his statements so empty. There can be no disputing what he says because he says virtually nothing. Instead, Maharaj Ji provides a nucleus for a community of believers without demanding any particular beliefs of them other than those they already hold.

Brilliant. Like the premies who come here, Maharaji appeals to a fear of much a human being does (make distinctions, analyze and separate), and like Charles Glasser Jr., they denigrate others who do so, (like us) because they see it as something to be feared (mind) as cause of their problems, as well as the basic problem with humanity and the world.

Since this is the preconceived notion, Maharaji just plays into that, and this belief system creats a catch-22. If you analyze Maharaji and the 'experience' you lose it, because you are analyzing/listening to your mind, and aren't listening to your heart. If you don't analyze, you never, ever, look at Maharaji, knowledge and your 'experience' critcally. Thus, you remain disabled from even knowing what your 'experience' is, let alone whether Maharaji has something to do with it. You remain in a cult.

Also, someone raised the issue of whether 'Alan' who is discussed in the piece is Alan Imbarrato. I tend to think not. According to the article 'Alan' was in college in 1965, and so that person would be significantly older than many of the rest of us. I recall Alan Imbarrato as being roughly my same age, so I don't think that's him.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:25:00 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maharaji's Cheap Hinduism -- true then, and now
Message:
'There is no use trying to understand Maharaj Ji's appeal in traditional
ways-in terms of his charisma, say, or the contents of his
statements-because his appeal is precisely that he is so uncharismatic
and his statements so empty.'

Nice analysis. We seventies premies were postmodernists, whether or not we were in academia at the time. M was not charismatic or profound or anything...and we loved him for that. Just a simple God in Flesh...so easy. Bye.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:54:46 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, as I said to la-ex about a month ago ...
Message:
Allen was in the 'movement,' i.e. a political activist. I think the interviewer just spelled his name wrong. When I worked at Peace Press in LA (between about 77-80), Allen visited LA and in one of my conversations with him he told me that when he was in the movement organizations that he was a part of used to get their materials printed at the Peace Press.

--f

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:54:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: So, it probably is him, then
Message:
It just seemed like the dates mentioned in the article would make him too old, but perhaps he's in his mid-50s now.

Has anyone talked to him recently about what he thinks about his days being a devotee of Maharaji?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:32:10 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I know Alan Imbarrato
Message:
Alan is one of the first waves of premie exodus. I was introduced to AI by Michael Murray (early wave of initiators). He was conducting seminars back in 83/84. He's approx. fifty yrs. old today.

I attended one of Alan's workshops (in Thousand Oaks). He was certain Maha BigHead was just another guy even though most of the people in the seminar were very active and PAM acquainted.

Alan was polite and did not pry into our Active belief system and therefore I (We) all respected him.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:30:26 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I know Alan Imbarrato
Message:
Hi. Any chance Michael Murray is an ex?
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:36:52 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Hopefully
Message:
Michael had a huge family...I think 5 or 7 kids (all of them were premies I think including his mother).

I went out with him a few times, he was obviously very non-judgemental towards Alan and that was back in 84(ish)

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:46:54 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hopefully
Message:
I wonder if this is the same MM. Did he do a lot of security? Is so, he and I were good friends, but I lost touch.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:55:13 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: DV
Subject: Regarding MM
Message:
Oh, I'm sure.

He lived in the Rez staff for awhile (Miami) although he travelled extensively with his primary service as an initiator.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:35:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Know where Alan is now? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:53:16 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry--try Thousand Oaks directory
Message:
Or see if you can find Michael Murray. They were good buddies at the time. Michael turned a lot of us onto Alan's seminar.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:46:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Here's where Allen Imbarrato is....
Message:
He is the President of something called 'Ki Systems' which seems to be a kind of new-agy business consulting firm. It apparently has a program called 'Winning at Work' to indoctrinate, I mean motivate workers. He is in Southern California.

[Am I correct that this kind of profession seems to proliferate among current premies?]

You can see Allen's website, including a picture of Allen (he is looking well) at:

www.kibizsystems.com/kiwesite/AboutUs.html

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:03:00 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Here's where Allen Imbarrato is....
Message:
Thanks Joe,

Yes, that's the guy. Quite a handsome mug I must admit! He's aging very nicely. And he looks happy. Think I'll drop him a line. He'll be glad I figured the cult-shit out.

Poor guy, we were all attending programs while we did the seminar. And some of us had 'opportunities' to do direct service-you know-including go to the Rez shit. Poor Alan just shook his head. We were cool but we were fooled.

Thanks for the search. The workshop I attended was 'winning at work' if I 'member correctly.

So, lots of shit going down here, isn't it? I've whipped throught the threads in my typical KickAss and Take Name fashion. It's nice to have a calm word.

See ya Joe...tell me about yourself! Miami? LA? DECA? REZ?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:02:35 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Debate VS Polite Noise and Unanimity...
Message:
I work on the weekends, and often can't post then because I'm so busy. So sometimes I post on Monday about things that happened over the weekend.

I was going to say today, that arguments on the forum are not the biggest tragedy that could happen. Arguements bring issues to the forefront.

One of the most agrivating things about working on M's participation Committee was the way everything was kept SO civil and nice. So civil, that debate was squashed. The Churchladies would make polite noises, insisting that the input and suggestions of new people were welcomed and encouraged.

There was great emphasis by the Churchladies on achiving unanimity and unity in the decision making process. 'Unamimity' in reality meant, you were supposed to give in to the status quo. The Churchladies would seem to bend and go along with changes, but when it came to a vote, they would always revert back to the politically correct position, and then try to convice you, ever so reasonalby and politely, to again go with the flow, in the name of unamimity and helping the Master, instead of being difficult. If you persisted in disagreeing, you ended up feeling like an obstructionist. Yet going along with things I did not agree with made me end up feeling like a resource to be exploited. Plus their secret emails, secret this and confidential that, closed meetings for some people, etc. really put me off. The Secrecy really got to me in the end.

So I was going to post here this morning,''Gee, thank goodness it's not like that here. We can all disagree, arguments are a healthy sign that we all have input and real change and influence is possible. We can have opinions as diverse as Jim's and Katie's and Brian's and JHB, and we can all co-exist on the same forum. Sure it's unpleasant at times, but it beat's UNANIMITY, because it's more REAL. We all have different strenghts. The different approaches taken by the above mentioned people to help premies are very different, but perhaps there is strength in allowing ALL those approaches to be used. Disagreeing with each other does not have to be a weakness.''

But here it is Monday, and Jim Heller has been BANNED. Now his critics can critisize him without his rebuttle. Jim Heller, a non-anonymous ex-premie, is forbidden to speak on this forum, while the likes of anonymous premie trolls and spin-doctors, like CW, MK, MW and the like are WELCOMED. It boggles the mind. It also sends a clear message to those of us who agreed with Jim. I got the message, and I'm a bit speechless. Were you folks just making ''polite noise'' about welcoming input from new people, when you really just want to preserve the status quo, and the heck with anyone who challenges that? I'm having deja vu.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:14:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: I vote for debate ... but on whose terms?
Message:
and do those terms include the right to bite the hand that feeds you?

So Jim has been barred from the EPO Forum. Apparently for the second time, and by the same FA as barred him before (a few years ago, I think).

Man! this forum is better than any soap opera! (though to be fair to Corrie, Eastenders, Brookside et. al, I never watch soap operas, so what do I know?)

.
.
.

What do I know? Well, I know this:

Having 'only' spent the last hour or so skimming the threads to try and find out why such a dramatic turn of events has come about since last Friday (when I last accessed the Forum), my knowledge of the details may be somewhat sketchy, but what appears to be emerging is this:

Jim is barred (since about 24 hours ago).

The FA (who has outed himself - blimey, I never thought it was you John!) says it's because he 'published an extract from a confidential email'.
.
.
.
Hmmmm, now where did he publish that email, John? On this Forum eh? This Forum on which YOU are the main administrator?
.
.
.
Now what was that phrase? 'The buck stops ...'

OK, look, I for one am not demanding your resignation, but in terms of the buck stopping somewhere, AND in terms of you doing what you thought to be the right thing, I don't see how EITHER you or Jim can emerge from this with anything less than egg on both your faces.

And maybe that egg splatters onto the faces of ALL exes in the process.

.
.
.
Look, you've slapped Jim's wrist. OK, so why not bar him for ... say a week?, (and, as one who knows that it's only pubs with the best buzz/conversation that are worth getting barred from, I'm sure Jim can deal with that) - then give him limited posting for a bit (3 times a week too much? - it'll focus his posts, for sure) and by then he'll have remembered that Katie and Brian are ultimately responsible for giving him his 'dinner plate' (if you get my meaning), on which he can air his opinions, and we'll all have focused back on the reason this site and Forum was created in the first place.

Or would it be better to hold out long enough for Jim to get round to setting up his own Forum? (is THAT what this is all about?) Hmmmm, could work in everyone's favour, I guess.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:45:15 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Yes debate, but the least terms may be the best...
Message:
... terms. All the arguing seems to come to be about controling information, and on over-concern of protecting the anonymity of hostile premies. They are entitled to be hostile and anonymous if they choose, but I don't see it as OUR responsibilty to bend over backwards to keep their secrets. Banning Jim may shut him up in the short term, but is not solving the conflict.

I notice Sir Dave dosen't worry about control too much, maybe he has a point? Did you see his post above? What do you think of the idea of a ''flame'' room?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 18:58:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: The Wrong Moccassins?
Message:
... or - 'walk another mile in my wellies, wiseman'
(with apologies to Aardman Animation's Wallace and Grommit in their all-time classic, 'The Wrong Trousers')
.
.
.
Chuck, it IS all about controlling information. You've hit the nail on the head there. Let's face it though, if one of your or my private emails were leaked, the least we'd do (excuse me, I should say 'the least I'd do') would be to take steps toward preventing it happening again.

With that motivation in mind, all attempts at face-saving take second place to the primary task, which is - plugging that leak.
.
.
.
And while we're at it, let's face this too:

if anyone published one of my private emails anywhere, I'd be out for their blood. Wouldn't you?

And if it was published on THE one forum whose site I was webmaster of - well, ... blood and thunder! No wonder Brian was rattled. He had every right to be. And if you were in the same position, Chuck, I'd be surprised if you'd continue to advocate the same arguments as you have done.

The more the details of this issue are coming to light, the more I find it only natural to empathise with the people who haven't chosen to side with Jim. Although my initial (automatic?) response was to defend his right to post here.

But, putting myself in Brian and John's shoes, I must admit, it's not so hard to see it from their viewpoint.

But there's two sides to this. Give me a little time to work on the other. OK?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:24:19 (GMT)
From: bill-nt
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Maybe you guys could just read those threads again
Message:
dfyjdf
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:28:47 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: bill-nt
Subject: Once was enough, thanks...
Message:
... plus it's hard enough keeping up with all the new posts. I'm sure I'm as sick of the arguments as anyone else. But banning Jim is no solution, except to those who wish to shut him up. He wants things to be out in the open, and so do I. Banning is pretty drastic, and there was no warning, and given that the forum introduction warns that flaming happens here, it seems like a weak excuse by itself for banning Jim. It allows his critics to run him into the ground while he's not here to defend himself. I'm not happy about it, and am saying so.

I rather like Sir Dave's idea, in a thread above, of having a ''flame'' room. Would it be like a sub-forum for flaming? I wonder if it's possible to implement? Would a 'flame' room for containing such arguments appeal to you as a solution?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:54:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Once was enough, thanks...who needs post mortems?
Message:
Let's just get on with Sir Dave's solution. The individuals involved can thrash it out among themselves but EPO and a free speech forum must be separate to prevent conflict of interest.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:33:47 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji promo on NY cable TV
Message:
While on vacation in NY last week I was surfing the TV channels and there was a picture of the great one himself and a tag line giving a phone # for anyone interested in getting more info on knowledge. Unfortunately, I had missed the show and was getting the credits at the end. The preceeding show had been created by Visions International. I think it was on cable channel 108 0r 110. Any NYers out there who have seen the show??
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:59:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Are you serious?
Message:
That's hysterical. The guy is reduced to cable access, along with the drag queens and faith healers.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:31:05 (GMT)
From: bill-NT---Joe, I would
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: never lump drag queens with such madness and greed
Message:
dfgasdffsd
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:43:32 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: absolutely!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:13:19 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Are you serious?
Message:
I suppose this is going to give drag queens and faith healers a bad name now...

The video that you missed might have had the same audience in it that applauds, laughs, ooohs and aaaahs on Ronco infomercials. Or maybe it might just be mistaken for the same discriminating audience.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:09:33 (GMT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Are you serious?
Message:
My thoughts entirely. Here in New York, when I am scrolling through the local channels to see what 'creative' (I am being sarcastic) programming is on, I am going to see an introductory video...............so that's what it's come down to now? Oh boy!
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:47:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Maharaji porno on NY cable TV
Message:
Paul, VACATION in NYC??? Hoowah!!!

I heard that the Lard was going public with TV. This should be really fun. I think the public at large will be very amused.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:41:18 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Maharaji is signing his death certificate
Message:
This is good news, really good news. Why? Because the station will have a mail reader.

Let's write the station and tell them what we know?

Any Takers...email me and we'll talk about a collective strategy.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:51:09 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: TV News Consumer advocates
Message:
All the major channels have consumer Advocates. They do short spots in the local news hour Like...'DOES THIS WORK'..usually it's about a product on infomercial but why couldn't it be M and his K?
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:29:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bring back Jim and Let's Get Back on Topic!
Message:
I've been offline all weekend and I come back here to find out that Jim's been banned and many strong individuals are leaving in protest. What the fuck?

Okay, I have missed many of the arguments. I may have missed the politics operating on this board, but the last time I read the forum guidelines it said 'expect to be flamed.'

If I had the time and ability to do the FA job I would, and if I had the power to do it, I would fire the FA now. What has occurred in the past week is absolutely ridiculous and it's not just because of Jim!

I also believe that for so many strong contributors to leave the forum in support of Jim is noble but also short-sighted. I disagree with the FA, now will the FA ban me too? This is more like facism than freedom of speech. More reason to stay!!!!

Are we going to allow the backlash websites which came online in the past few weeks to SUCCEED in weakening this place as a protest against the Maharajism cult, as well as a support for new exes coming here? I'll bet the premies and the EV monitors are THRILLED to see Jim banned. That's short-sighted.

I agree with Michael Donner. There are bigger fish to fry and enough time has been wasted on the lawyer from NY, Charles. In essence, Glasser has accomplished his goal in dividing and conquering. I don't care if Bazza gave an email to Jim. BFD, really, now. I don't care if Jim posted it here. Why? Because we are all human and make mistakes, and beside that, I don't think in the grand scheme of things it matters that much.

I refuse to leave this forum because I believe that the current FA is not being objective and is crossing the line in terms of his decision making regarding who may or may not post, and by censoring folks here when IMO, it isn't warranted. I also believe that the FA needs to become more tolerant, more even-handed in decisions in the future.

Of all people to ban--JIM????

This is my other observation: because Jim and Brian, or Jim and Katie, or Jim and the FA don't like eachother or are in the throws of an argument is beside the point of this Forum.

What is the point of this forum, if we allow the members of the cult to see how successful the results of their ''operation backlash'' has become? Played right into their hands, did we? This goes for all of us, not just the main players in the argument.

Step back, everyone. Get back on topic folks. Enough is enough!

And bring Jim back. I'll stay and stay and stay and continue to make the request. If the FA doesn't like it, I'll continue to make the request anyway.

(I came online today to say I have to move my computer and probably won't have time to post this week, but I think I will postpone moving my computer and try to get online when I'm able).

So, everyone, please stay. Don't let this Charles Glasser person and Pia and most of all, the Grand Rev. Rotwat divide, conquer, and sit back and laugh.

By leaving, you are giving the FA MORE power. See? Please reconsider.

All of the strongest voices are needed here, especially now.

Can we get back on topic soon, folks?

Sincerely pissed off,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:14:59 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Charles accomplished fuck all
Message:
the forum is here, the site is here and exes are as determined as anything not take it face down. AG has oicked up strength and you don't really know what the future holds. If anything Charles has lost his credibility as being independent. He has been take in by the large bozzom, which only indicateds that EV and maharaji are on it. Well fuck maharaji, EV and charles glas-snot. And FA if you want to delte anything, fuck you too.

meantime, am off to bed.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 12:22:44 (GMT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Jim BANNED? This is getting ridiculous!!
Message:
Rididculous, as many aspects of this forum.Don't have time to write more.
Yuck!
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:26:28 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Like you said, you didnt read all the posts...nt
Message:
fghdfgh
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:06:21 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think this forum needs a flame room linked with
Message:
a big fat link button next to the 'Reply' script. Then if enough people hit the button, the flamer's posts would be thrown into the flame room, whereupon other interested flamers could jump in and post, joining any additional flamer's posts that were also thrown in. Of course, there are control issues- maybe one could only hit the flame button x # of times. This way, if the posts start getting too nasty, boring, or irrelevant, yet have their own merits, they are still there yet not so prevailing. And not archive the posts, whatever good that would do.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:40:43 (GMT)
From: Charles Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Agreed, Cynthia, but unfortunately it seems...
Message:
That some sort of power struggle is happening. You said:

''Okay, I have missed many of the arguments. I may have missed the politics operating on this board, but the last time I read the forum guidelines it said 'expect to be flamed.'''

I think we have all ''missed the politics operating on this board.'' I think that was Jim's point about confidential emails from the EPO webmaster. Is the problem that one email? Or is it that there are too many things being decided behind the scenes FOR us? Who gets to decide which information gets to be withheld from us, and why?

And indeed you ARE right, the forum guidelines say ''expect to be flamed''. The FA certainly did not interfere with the anonymous ''Mr.Williams'' flaming me. But suddenly, flaming is a reason to ban Jim. Jim Heller, a non-anonymous ex-premie who has the respect of many who post here. But anonymous premies are allowed to flame here, and their identities are protected. What is the agenda being dictated to us here?

Sure, if Bazza agreed not to reveal identies as FA, the Main FA has a legit complaint. But I liked Bazza as FA. He used to warn us if anonymous people were lying about where they were posting from. He used to like to share information with us. I hope that haveing to keep secrets hasn't driven him away, and back into the arms of the Cult. It has to be awful having to leave the secrecy of M's world, only to be asked to keep the secrets of anonymous premie posters who come here and lie about who they are, where they are posting from, and refuse to engage in real discussion, but only come here to disparage exes and seed fear and paranoia. I'm not saying don't let them post, I'm only saying don't protect their identity from US when their sole purpose is to discredit us by using anonimity as a weapon. And perhaps there is a point at which they should be banned, unless they use their real name. I am not here to be a cat-scraching post.

Can you imagine someone showing up at a town meeting, like the ones that are so popular in Vermont, with a sheet covering them completely? Using an electronic device to alter their voice, so you couldn't even tell if they were male or female? Then this anonymous person starts ripping the people of the town new assholes, and the mayor and town couniclers bend over backwards to protect this anonymous persons identity, and ban anyone who critisizes their decision? Would that happen in the real world? Or would the people of that town rip the sheet off, and put the mayor and town councilers in their place? Just because this is cyberspace, doesn't mean we can't conduct ourselves like we are in the real world, because that is, in fact, where we ARE. Well, at least most of us? ;-)

On another topic, did you see a post I made to you a while ago, about the Fischer predetor epidemic I've heard about in New England, that my parents told me about? They live in a rural area, and their cat was eaten, and so was their neighbors, and my brothers cat, even though he does not live in a remote area. They have to keep their new cat(s) indoors. Their Vet said it is essential, cats have no defence against Fischers. I was concerned, because I know you are moving into a more remote area, and you have some cats. Chances are you know about the Fischer problem, but I just wanted to make sure your kitties are not in danger.

Thanks for the encouraging words. I was going to stay away in protest, but I think I will continue here for the very reasons you mentioned. As Dermot said, Bravo Cynthia! :-)

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:07:49 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Charles Sprague
Subject: Thanks, Charles...and everyone else
Message:
Everything you guys said is true. I liked your analogy about someone showing up at a Vermont Town Meeting. That white sheet would definitely have it ripped off of them. Actually, our town is in a battle (which I have also missed because I'm so busy) about our town librarian who is a gem of a person and librarian.

One of the ladies on the Library Commission started harrassing her with phone calls and spamming her with email. Petitions have come out so fast in support of the librarian (who resigned, then took her resignation back at our request) that the particular bitchy woman on the library commission will be forced to resign.

I am very aware of the Fischers, Charles. One summer about five years ago, our small communities (about 5 towns spread out) lost 100 cats to fischers. Now that I'm moving very close to the National forest, my cats are going to have to adjust to being indoors most of the time, and never outside a night.

Joe, I know this will die out. I just hate to see so many good, solid exes leaving because of this incident. Thanks for the positive thoughts.

And Deborah, you go girl...you remind me of myself about two years ago. I've gotten out a lot of the anger since I came here and I especially hate it when politics get us all screwed up to the point of such heated fights. Maybe fights are good, but I am very disturbed about placing anonymous posters above any ex here who has proven to be valuable: that's many of us, including Jim Heller.

That's what's so nice about not being anonymous. We have nothing to fear. I don't think there is much of a legal liability involved in this craziness, but more of personality conflicts and strong disagreements.

Dermont: thanks for the ''bravo!''

Got to go now...I'm expecting phone calls and have to go offline.

Love to you all,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 22:36:32 (GMT)
From: Charles Sprague
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Put butter on their feet...(OT)
Message:
Just a helpful hint regarding moving cats to a new home:

When we moved, we followed the advice of an old wives tale, regarding the cat. Soon after arriving at the new house with her, we put butter on her paws. She immediately began to lick it all off, and it put her into a licking frenzy, and she started to clean herself completly. By the time she finished, she had calmed down and was comfortable in her new environment, instead of trying to escape outside.

- Chuck, a.k.a. Ann Landers of the Cat World

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:08:07 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Charles Sprague
Subject: Yeah the visitor is nicknamed 'DEEP THROAT'
Message:
Cuz he gives the Deep Deep Satsang....what a bunch of maroons!
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:34:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Tempest in a teapot
Message:
I agree with you Cynthia, but Jim will be back. He was banned once before and that didnt' last long. I just hope that for whatever time Jim is banned, that he uses his time productively and enjoyably. And this will all pass quickly, that is my prediction.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:43:50 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Bring back Jim and Let's Get Back on Topic!
Message:
Hey sister, words from the wise. I'm going to leave my $.02 under the JHB outing thread. Give me 5 minutes.

Talk with you soon.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 17:58:56 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Bravo Cynthia (nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:21:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
I think Forum 5 should be kept intact as it is and put onto a different server that is not connected to the ex-premie.org server. The software for the forum is fine but it needn't be on the same server and part of the ex-premie.org site.

Of course, the links to Forum 5 (or would it be 6) would still be there on ex-premie.org.

There would have to be a change of FA and Jim and all other people who are banned would have to be allowed back and the past forgotten.

I think this would be a solution. Failure to do that would be due to people's pigheadedness. If necessary there should be an election for a sutable FA. Maybe it's head FA. Every now and then there could be another election and the old FA might keep the job, or not depending on the vote.

Any FA who got voted out of the job and complained about that would not have been suitable to be an FA in the first place. You catch my drift?

Money would be needed to put the Forum 6 on a new server and regular contibutions would be needed to pay for the bandwidth etc. This might only be in the region of about $20 per month and of course, it could easily be payed for.

Don't forget The free EX-PREMIE Forum for all people who want an alternative place to post and read.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:51:32 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maybe there was NEVER a problem!!!!!
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

I liked what you said except I have a problem (not a big one)with the following statement:

There would have to be a change of FA and Jim and all other people who are banned would have to be allowed back and the past forgotten.

Personally, I don't need to forget anything. I log onto to site to remember, remember what time and ego conspire to repress. I am a big enough girl to read, understand, comprehend, and respond to intelligent thoughtful arguments. It's the brain-dead fuckin idiot responses from the weak insecure people who read this forum who should be forgiven. Not Jim, Not Moley, Not Nigel, Not PatC and whoever else has left. These people (and others) are the cornerstone of critical thinking and persuasive ability.

And that's all I have to say about that!!!Otherwise, good post.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:58:50 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
Your idea of separating the forum from the site was one that John looked at, as did Katie and I. But if people aren't willing to protect the OLD forum and the site hosting it from liability, then what makes you think that they'd be any more willing to protect the NEW one?

And if people are willing to protect a NEW one, they why are they so adamant that they see no reason to step up and blow the whistle when they see someone threaten the OLD one?

The forum policy to delete threats and to block people who repeatedly post them came as a result of Jim having blown the whistle on someone posting a threat on Forum 2. THAT Jim was someone that I respected, but I have no idea what happened to him.

The Jim that was blocked from this forum was someone who LED a campaign of email harrassment and online threats against the workplace of someone. And as a lawyer, didn't even hesitate to ask what could result from sending harrassing email to an employee of a large law firm at his place of employment.

I didn't see anything in Jim's posted email to indicate that he wasn't covering his own ass when choosing his words. But I saw no warning on his part as to what other people shouldn't say.

So let's say you elect an FA. What happens when that FA tries to enforce the rules protect the new forum, and someone refuses to comply with them?

Are the rest of you going to step up and pressure that person into complying on the new forum?

If so, then why have you completely abandoned that resposibility on the old one? You all left it to the FA and to me. It wasn't your forum or your fight, so fuck it...

And now everyone has stomped off when they don't like how that fight was handled while they did nothing themselves to recognise or deal with the problem. The idea that these same people would give a damn on any DIFFERNT forum is extremely dubious in the face of their total apathy and outright participation in the offenses on THIS forum.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:19:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
My point is, if the forum is on another server under a different name then someone else takes liability for any legal hassles from it and not you, the webmaster of ex-premie.org.

What kind of reaction did you want from the people here? (Myself included). I am not anti anyone in particular. I don't feel the need to take sides. Some things have been done wrong but you can't undo that and all anyone can do is live with it.

The forum is similar to a battle ground in many ways. It is the front line. Better then that it is seperate from the ex-premie.org 'headquarters' which is behind enemy lines. Also far better that the name on the domain that hosts the forum is different to the name who hosts ex-premie.org.

I'd be quite happy to host the forum myself and take any legal flak, if there ever was any and I think there's very little danger of that actually. I would rent the webspace and put the domain in my name and then only I would have to worry about legal problems. But still you and the FA would have access to the forum config, just as it is now. I'd just be the fall guy.

I wouldn't particularly want to be the FA but if I could get an agreed decision on who the FA would be, that would be fine.

I still think this is the best solution but if you don't it can't go ahead because it's your forum software, isn't it.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:42:19 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
I don't have a problem about the forum software being mine. It's actually pretty crappy under the hood, since writing it was the way that I learned perl. I write code now that is far easier to maintain than the mishmash underlying the nice 'feel' of this particular forum.

I understand that your point is that EPO wouldn't be jeopardised by a forum hosted elsewhere, and I don't dispute that at all.

What I'm wondering is if you secure a domain, pay a server (which would cost a lot based on the 90+% that the forum uses of this site's bandwidth), and put a forum there - what is to ensure that the NEW site doesn't become the 'site that now needs protecting?'

If people are unwilling to take EPOs safety into account when posting here then how can you ensure that 'EPx' is safe from that same indifference?

And when you realise that you are in the same position then that I'm in now, how are you going to respond any differently than to pull rank yourself to protect yourself?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:20:39 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
Brian, let me (or whoever hosts the forum) worry about any need to protect it. I say if it's out of your hands and off your plate it will be better for you and ultimately everyone.

I must stress that I'm talking about the forum here and not ex-premie.org. The forum is the front line and it will always be subject to criticism, attack and abuse. So why would you want that responsibility as well as ex-premie.org?

There is too much for one person to do there. Concentrate on what you're good at and leave the responsibility forum to someone else. Of course, if you still want to, you can put the archives on ex-premie.org as you have been doing.

Incidentally, all of the flak comes because of the forum and not the ex-premie.org website.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:54:46 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
Brian, let me (or whoever hosts the forum) worry about any need to protect it. I say if it's out of your hands and off your plate it will be better for you and ultimately everyone.

Okay, I'm not being clear on what I'm asking.

If the forum is moved to another site then, yes, it's not my concern how the person legally responsible chooses to protect that site.

But this is one of 3 forums on this site, and my over-all problem doesn't go away as a result. So my real question is:

What do you suggest that I do differently to protect this site from the content allowed by anonymous people that you would do on another one?

I'm not saying that you wouldn't have a different method of dealing with the problem, or that there isn't one available. I'm asking how I might use that method now, whether this F5 is moved offsite or not.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:36:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: You can't protect it completely
Message:
You can't protect it completely and myself, I am more of an attacker than a defender. If there is an ex-premie forum then it's going to come under attack. Look, this is all a bit like playing poker. There are no guarantees and it's all a bit of a gamble. It is highly likely that an owner of a forum like this will come under attack verbally and maybe, (only maybe) legally.

Yet the owner of such a forum has very little to lose (cos they're already a 'looser' anyway) and what's the worst that's going to happen?

They might lose the site (as I did with my previous Truth site) but they can just start another one. What are acceptable losses? Lose the site. Nobody's going to sue over the sort of things that have been happening here.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 17:48:55 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: 'solutions' are a dime a dozen
Message:
Domains are cheap.

message board software is cheap. Who cares if it goes down. Move somewhere else.

The EPO is a different story. The point as Sir Dave so aptly pointed out is to dis-associate the two.

Forums are everywhere. Links to new ones are easily changed.

The EPO is not.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:26:13 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maybe there is a solution
Message:
maybe its just because i am use to this format, but i prefer the format of the forum 5 over the others...the threads that you can plug into are more clear and earier to follow...just a comment on that part of the issue only.

as for the rest, what a waste of time and energy folks...and much larger picture here and story re cult and m to tell. (waste of time for all..including you jim but all others too..pigheaded..yess.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:43:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: michael donner
Subject: Thanks For That Post, Mike
Message:
Your post sounds like a bit of sanity in this crazy world of Forum V.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:08:15 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How did JHB attain his power
Message:
to ignore the wishes of practically ALL posters and thus drive lots of them off the forum?

I mean, did he volunteer? Was he appointed? (and if so, by whom?)

Maybe just maybe some pride will be swallowed for the greater good of this forum. I just get the feeling though that narrow-minded, short-sighted pig headedness will be the order of the day. Hope not.

Jeeze ....all that imaginative, clever, sincere writing talent gone down the drain.Well not lost......but this environment of F5 was its perfect platform. Whilst two or three people finally get what they want, I guess.A quiet, CIVIL life. hahhha.

Yup Abi......TRAGIC is an appropriate word.

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:09:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: He was chosen by his Father who was FA before him
Message:
Although the details are somewhat open to debate. Some say a light shone above his head as he spoke to thousands and they prostrated before him. Others say his Father selected him sometime before the Father's death. The FA was VERY young at the time, and most people could not believe it was really him doing it. Isn't it amazing? ::))
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 00:23:06 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Lol Joe (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:56:45 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: JHB didn't attain his power--he assumed it!!!!!
Message:
Exactly Dermot...I just sat back and read yesterday and today I'm going like a firecracker right down the threads.

When did the FA switch horses? And to be a traitor? Where were we to see this happening? Giving Glasser information and slandering not only one of our own, but one of our best.

Please read my post to JHB concerning outing Jim, if I ever make down that far. Keep those posts coming. I'm ready to kick some ass.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:18:13 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: How did JHB attain his power
Message:
I moved the forum onto the site at Anth's request, with his assurance that it would be administered by him. He was involved in a lot of other things in his life, and he relied on a rotating group of people who volunteered or were cornered [grin] into helping.

Eventually Anth stopped doing it all together. Nigel took on the responsibility of being the 'main' FA, but he quit publicly over an argument with Runamok on the forum.

John stepped up at that time.

I had been watching a dizzying change of guard until I wasn't even sure who was or wasn't authorised to have access to the editor scripts.

So I told John that since he was doing the job, as far as I was concerned he was the one who I would deal with. He promised me that if he quit, that he'd let me know at the time so that I could coordinate with the new FA.

The agreement to host the forum on the site wasn't made with those who would post on it, but with the person who administers it.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:14:22 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: How did JHB attain his power
Message:
yes, in spite of everything...and because of everything..allow jim back and welcome others...bigger fish to fry folks, come on, get real.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:40:42 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Bigger fish
Message:
yes, in spite of everything...and because of everything.. allow jim back and welcome others... bigger fish to fry folks, come on, get real.

How 'welcome' are people in your own house after they've made it clear that they value their enjoyment of the party over any willingness to protect your furniture?

I agree with what you're saying about bigger fish to fry OFF this forum, but ON the forum itself the forum and site ARE the fish.

I think that blocking is a crude solution to a problem. Removing the forum is even cruder. But what other solutions would you propose?

You've known Jim for many years. I've known him for only 4 years. I've never been able to 'reason' him into changing his behavior any more than he's been able to 'reason' a single premie out of their beliefs in Maharaji over that 4 year span.

You've always struck me as being pretty level-headed. But really Mike, what would you do differently, and how much time would you be willing to spend to see that people who post here use this forum responsibly? What's your suggestion?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:08:40 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: You're a Bigger fish than you realize
Message:
I've never been able to 'reason' him into changing his behavior any more than he's been able to 'reason' a single premie out of their beliefs in Maharaji over that 4 year span.

Where the fuck do you come off with that attitude. You can't control Jim, you can't control his behaviour. Oh you mean the behaviour of insulting you on a fuckin cyber cultbashing forum.

Fuck Brian, how fuckin selfish of your ego!!!!!!!

You compare Jim who STARTED THIS FORUM WITHOUT YOU AND YOUR PATHETIC GUILE-LESS PENIS-DEFLATED help. He did this without you, what fuckin part of that don't you understand.

Did you guys get hold of some bad charnarnamrit?

Get a clue. Where are you. come on...it's spelled:

E-X-(underscore)P-R-E-M-I-E.org. WHAT DOES THAT SPELL?

Can you tell me Boys and Girls??. Jesus fucking Christ?

p.s. Cult-thinking doesn't have to be permanent.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:53:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Your divisive rhetoric
Message:
You've known Jim for many years. I've known him for only 4 years. I've never been able to 'reason' him into changing his behavior any more than he's been able to 'reason' a single premie out of their beliefs in Maharaji over that 4 year span.

Brian, can't you see that you yourself are a very big part of the problem?

Jim has probably helped more people out the cult than we can even know about. Many people have publicly stated their thanks to Jim for helping them see through the cult.

I'm sure you receive your share of thanks for maintaining the site (and rightly deserve them) and there is no need to denigrate Jim's dedicated and persistent efforts here.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:23:34 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes
Message:
Hell, Gerry - I KNOW that I'm part of the problem!! I was trying to get back into posting as just 'me' rather than as some authority figure. I don't do that well at all, as you can see below...

I come across as a complete asshole at times, and at times that's an accurate reflection. I don't do 'authority' well. I want to protect the site, but in the past there were so many people who shared that interest that I was able to post without having to put on the uniform to ensure its safety.

Nobody spoke up this time in outrage over what happened here other than Katie, the FA, and me. When you got here you were more interested in having missed the fight. You never asked, 'how does the fallout from this affect the forum?'

As for Jim helping people, he helped me when I first found the forum in 97. And I'm sure that he's helping those who have been posting here recently.

But Jim isn't running any Red Cross campaign here, and helping isn't as important to him any more. Winning seems to be his sole priority. Winning against premies, winning against Brian, winning against whoever has a position that isn't his or a priority that interferes with the tactics he chooses to use to ensure that he wins.

In the past he wasn't at all willing to allow the forum itself or the site itself to suffer due to an unwillingness to moderate HOW he chose to provide that help. He was also surrounded by people who took it on themselves to step up and tell him that he was way over the line without first having to put on some voice of authority as FA or webmaster. He used to take those points into consideration at the time.

You ran forum 4 when it started. I didn't follow the fray over there after it moved off the site.

What made you finally throw up your hands and quit? Was it the cooperation of the people who used the forum, or was it the abuse from them?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:14:34 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: It's not about Jim WINNING-It's about you WHINING
Message:
You insecure asshole. Who gave you permission to assume that because JIm didn't like you, you had the right to do a COWARDLY thing like tell him he's banned.

You're a wimp. You're self-inflated. Did you not get recognition while you were a premie? Oh poor poor baby. You can't even commit to a purpose of why you are here. Pathetic, truly pathetic.

I think you should resign. Be a red-cross centre for premies hand holding. Let some of us that dont have a sacrificial lamb jones get on with kicking some good MahaBigHead ass. Fuckin Traitor

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:04:22 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Okay
Message:
You insecure asshole. Who gave you permission to assume that because JIm didn't like you, you had the right to do a COWARDLY thing like tell him he's banned.

I didn't do that, which might be a small point to make at this time. Who gave you permission to assume that I was given permission to assume just because Jim didn't like me, that I ever told Jim that he's banned?

You're a wimp. You're self-inflated. Did you not get recognition while you were a premie? Oh poor poor baby. You can't even commit to a purpose of why you are here. Pathetic, truly pathetic.

My purpose here is to keep this website online. How well my choices of words here aid in that cause is definitely a good question to ask. But you're not demonstrating an alternative vocabulary.

I think you should resign. Be a red-cross centre for premies hand holding. Let some of us that dont have a sacrificial lamb jones get on with kicking some good MahaBigHead ass. Fuckin Traitor

From an earlier post exchange with you I know that you can respond better than this. Your point here seems to be that you are angry. Point taken.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 20:45:10 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Okay, Not over.
Message:
Brian,

I didn't do that, which might be a small point to make at this time. Who gave you permission to assume that I was given permission to assume just because Jim didn't like me, that I ever told Jim that he's banned?

Are you saying that this was just FA's (JHB)decision?

My purpose here is to keep this website online. How well my choices of words here aid in that cause is definitely a good question to ask. But you're not demonstrating an alternative vocabulary.

Tell us more about your purpose. Tell us about the apparent hidden agendas that have creeped up. Tell us how you tried to keep the site online by blasting on-forum rather than conducting the affair through email and also Tell us how Yours and Katie personality sensitivites come into play here. I'm anxious to know!!!

But you're not demonstrating an alternative vocabulary.
Don't switch horses, I've seen enough of that shananigans this week. Swearing is not comprable to the topic at hand.

From an earlier post exchange with you I know that you can respond better than this. Your point here seems to be that you are angry. Point taken.

Yes and Thank you for that acknowledgement.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:53:23 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Okay. Over.
Message:
I responded to your extremely rude post. I did so as nicely as I have ever responded to any rudeness of that magnitude.

I also read your resonse to JHB below where you say that you don't believe that Jim did anything wrong.

We are worlds apart...

very distant worlds apart...

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 23:52:41 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: HOW FUCKIN BIG OF YOU TO ANSWER MY POST, BRIAN!
Message:
Oh, did you do me FAVOUR by answering my Post. Oh silly me...I thought you had a brain and a conscience. I didn't think the only thing you knew how to do was ACT like a Civilized person.

Is this how YOU display your trouble shooting on EPO. Just act like a phony dilegent fuck and maybe, just maybe I'll think your a deep and sensitive enlightened man worthy of admiration.

You and Katie seem to want to FAKE happiness, FAKE diplomacey, FAKE courteous behaviour. You want to use the nicey words but your delivery suffers incongruency.

Did I claim to write 'sweet' letters. NO. I CAN. But I won't, not now, anyways. That's your fuckin trip, Brian. I write angry, hateful, posts to meaningless dick-measuring fights that are affecting ALL OF US. This is not JUST about you and JIM.

I fight the Bull Shit - I don''t EAT it! Capiche. Want to come to my seminar. It's real! I'll have you deprogrammed in no time.

Were you displaying courtesy to Jim after you found out about the FA incident that one of your own leaked. NO.

Have you've been able to prove to me that Jim has baggered you and Katie...NO. Prove it to me: Show me the posts.

Do you think just because you REPEAT my statement that you have handled the objection. This is WHY you hate Jim. You can't argue worth shit, you just wimpily get people to beleive you've been worked over. It's in your fuckin heads, man!

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:48:17 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: OK, Brian thanks for that
Message:
This is a complex can o' worms issue that I don't pretend to understand but want to thank you for exposing your vulnerability a bit. In the next thread down started by Abi, I offered to post any reply by Jim to FA's offer of reinstatement. If Jim complies with FA's guidelines, can you live with it too? You are in a unique and non-enviable position here. Most of us want to see the Forum continue with it's good work. But frankly, speaking for myself, I hardly give a rat's behind about the intramural stuff until the Forum is threatened. For you it may be a huge issue and I respect that. But how can we move this forward?

Richard

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:42:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Yes
Message:
helping isn't as important to him any more. Winning seems to be his sole priority.

I hope this isn't the case.

I really did miss the fight but I can imagine what it was about.

What made you finally throw up your hands and quit? Was it the cooperation of the people who used the forum, or was it the abuse from them?

It was definitely the abuse. No doubt about it. I don't have any answers. I can only learn from my own mistakes and modify my own behavior.

PS I'm sorry for my part of the abuse you and Katie have suffered.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 18:24:37 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes
Message:
I'm sorry that I jumped you when you came back after the fight.

The past week has been wearing on many people on the forum, but for Katie and I it's been absolutely draining and we only reinforced that in each other when we walked away from our computers.

You and I both seem to be wired to react rather than to make our points taking into account that the reader has no idea what we're about to say until we say it. We tend to jump right to our conclusions rather than just show what our reasoning is and allow readers to get there themselves as they read the post. And then we both get angry when the reader disagrees with our unsupported conclusions.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:04:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Uh Oh
Message:
I've suspected for a time now that you and I are rather alike in some ways.

Now I'm gonna steal your wife :)

Gerry--always a sucker for a sexy and sultry voice

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:17:13 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Uh Oh is right
Message:
Gerry--always a sucker for a sexy and sultry voice

Thanks, Gerry. I've been practicing with a tape recorder...

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:13:11 (GMT)
From: barney
Email: drek@oz.net
To: gerry
Subject: Glad I'm not like you two loosers!
Message:
Sheesh!

Can't neither of you guys stay out of trouble?

Am I gonna have to stick my finger in a light socket to get fired up to kick some ass?

I'm tired now. Time for a nap.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:05:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I agree Gerry
Message:
To be kind, I think Brian was limiting his comments to those premies that Jim has argued with on the forum. I was one of those who read such arguments, and exited, but I haven't heard of any premie that argued with Jim on the forum subsequently exiting. But we don't know, so Brian should confine his criticisms of Jim, if he wishes to make them, to those faults that have contributed to this situation.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:17:12 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: JHB
Subject: How are you doing, John?
Message:
Bit of a rough ride, eh?

E-mail me if I can help.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:26:18 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I'm OK
Message:
Thanks Gerry for the offer of help. I'm doing fine so far. Nothing that's happened since I banned Jim has surprised me, so I was prepared. The pity is that no one has actually taken the trouble to rationally respond to my post banning Jim, line by line, like Jim would have done. All I had initially was emotional reactions, but very little reason. Thankfully, some calmer voices are speaking now.

Let's see what happens:-)

John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 13:42:47 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BRING BACK JIM!
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:24:11 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: BRING BACK JIM! Jim may have other plans
Message:
Hi Abi, It's nice to meet you. I'm really sorry about the insensitive responses from 'human' slime like Richard II. You have a lot of support here, not to worry about gnats like him.

Anyhow, I just rec'd email from Jim -- I discovered Jim when I logged on to this forum 2 yrs. ago but I never explored the EX-premie potential because I had just drifted away from Maha BigHead and therefore had no immediate threat.

Turns out we live in the same town approx 10 blocks away. Cool eh? Did you know that's he's a funny guy? Really, all the time. He's got neet friends and neighbours that admire him as much as we do? Some people picture a bully, but truth is: He grins all the time. He's just got amazing conviction and he's trained to argue his points whereas the most of us, pretty much suck. I learned a lot from him and I'm really glad I can just walk over to his house.

I'm sure he appreciates your support even if he decides not to come back, if asked.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:00:24 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Happy to
Message:
If he promises to stop his campaign of harrassment against Brian and Katie, and stick to what he's good at.

Abi, do you think this is an unreasonable condition?

Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 21:19:59 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Can't let go of the wounded egos, eh?
Message:
Silly suggestion. How about we suggest that Katie and Brian not publically argue, vent, and toss around their little priviledge. They lost an argument -- boohoo --why don't you suggest they Get on with it!

Don't answer the posts! That's all. Give accountability for your actions. Act diplomatically when considering how to approach the EPO. We can't tiptoe around people's personality issues.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 01:19:50 (GMT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: The ''Landlords'' of FV...
Message:
Since the Forum is HOSTED on the website and server used by EPO, I think that may influence the FA to ban people who disagree with Katie and Brian.

This whole argument about what Brian said in the email may not have been so prolonged if Brian had admitted he dissed Jim when talking to Charles Glasser. It's hardly supprising, given that Jim and Brian don't like each other.

Ideally Brian would have just said to Charles 'No', when asked if Jim was representing EPO. If Brian had admitted that, I would have thought it was not the best judgement to use, but then Brian's only human, it's not the end of the world.

Instead it got drawn out into a big argument, the result of which is, that Katie and Brian's most vocal critic has been banned from the forum, with the cooperation of the FA, who's forum is hosted on their website and server. That has to make it difficult for the FA to separate the interests of the forum from what Katie and Brian say are the interests of EPO. They are like the forum's landlord. It can be dangerous to anger the landlord.

Would you say there is a conflict of interest here?

Brian claims: ''The Jim that was blocked from this forum was someone who LED a campaign of email harrassment and online threats against the workplace of someone. And as a lawyer, didn't even hesitate to ask what could result from sending harrassing email to an employee of a large law firm at his place of employment.''

I didn't see any evidence of that, did you? Or is Brian being overly-dramatic? Or is there yet more confidential email we are not privy to?

All this drama seems to be about controlling information on the forum. How is that the concern of the EPO webmaster, if the forum is indeed a separate entity? Is this just using the control of information as a means of wielding political power? Haven't we had enough of that from a certain guru in Malibu?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 02:59:36 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: The ''Landlords'' of FV...
Message:
Very astute. What's the story with the 'large Law Firm' would it make a differecne if he was checking groceries at Safeway.

Fuck, such a lack of sophistication. Silly child play.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:38:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Jim
Subject: Happy to - Jim read this!
Message:
Hey Jim. Here's your chance to get out of the penalty box and apply your talents where they do the most good. Whether your answer is yes, no or fuck you - email it to me and I'll post it. (Assuming I wont get banned in the process.)

Richard who is not taking sides but wants to help flush this turd of an issue

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 09:30:21 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Another Bitch
Message:
You know what's fucked? Haha Roger always said 'Knowledge is for life - you can't give it back. In later years he became fond of saying: 'If you like it, fine, if not, fine, just walk away.

O.K., so like he's saying that you can walk away but you can't give it back. And there was also some stuff about knowledge rotting if you walk away. Anybody here figure this one out for me?

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:09:42 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Well Steve if you can't smell the stench by now
Message:
and see the rotting vegetables all around you then you ain't gonna figure out nothing.


A possible remedy:

Off to the optometrists.

Followed by an ENT specialist.

Then copy Bazza.

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 11:41:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Such words reveal your truth
Message:
and yet you are too blind to see it. Most people are now posting on The free EX-PREMIE Forum now, by the way.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:45:12 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Got to admit Dave it's bloody funny over there
Message:
I didn't stop laughing at the free and easy 'way of expression' that is obviously the go. Good to see actually after all the serious stuff here.
MK
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:22:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: MK
Subject: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah
Message:
Then copy Bazza.

That's a very smartass post, IMO. When you say copy Bazza, do you mean leave the Forum? I would never abandon ship.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah
Message:
No I mean start practicing again! Apparently that's what he's doing.

You're right Steve that was a smartarse post and thank you for handling it like a gentleman. I was getting really hyped about the Wimbledon final. I'm glad Goran finally won, a victory of sorts for his people and a well deserved honour after ten Wimbledon appearances where his humour and skill have been widely appreciated.

stay well,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 10:35:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah - no, no, no, Steve
Message:
Bazza posted on Lifes Great that he had a darshan dream and has started meditating again. That's what MK/DW means. Your rotting veggies will stop rotting when you go back to M and K. He's trying to frighten you back into the cult.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:15:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: No, No, No, No, No, No, Pat
Message:
MK is a she, I believe it's Marolyn Rawat posting.

When you say, 'He's trying to frighten you back into the cult', do you mean Bazza?

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:45:08 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mainz was unbelivebale....Bing Bam Boom!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Hi everyone,

sorry I have no time at all to report now, cause I'm moving to another building and they diconnect me from my PC.

But really folks, now they go completly crazy. Only a mentally sick person can plan a programm like this in Mainz.
On the first day only videos, and what kind off, is beyond believe, if this videos are not a tool for brainwahing, then I change my sex. It was unbelivebale and I don't find the right words in the moment. Can you imagine, when only the word 'Master' appeared on the screen people applauded. And then ........wah wahh wahhh duumm dumm this is a production from 'WADAHAMAR' people applauded again. No it's unbelivebale how stupid it can get.
But for myself, I had a good weekend because I had a lot of good comunication with premie friends and I was in a company of people, where I could talk freely and this helped me a lot to stay in a good mood. Of course, some people were a little bit shocked by my statements, but I hope my statements still were sensitive enough not to hurt someone seriously.
After the progamm on sunday, for an hour or so, I felt like a mashed potatoe, after a while of talkimg with my friends, I found a good feeling for myself again.
For the responses to my post I will thank everyone. It touched me, okay sometimes I'm too sentimental, but I appreciate your honesty.
But eventhough I can't believe that a thing like this can go on, I see it's very powerful. A lot of people asked me were I've got all my information from and I can say, I only talked about some few funny things, mostly like Mr. and Mrs. Ravat going to Dr. Kasarola to check their marriageproblems. Sorry, one premie I know since 10 years, got so confused by this little human story, that she was crying at night in her hotelroom because she could not handle that information On the next day when I've met her again, she said I never should do a thing like that again. I excused myself, it was not my intention to spoil her the event.
I realy have to stop now. But I will report more I think it has to wait till next we. I discoverded even a lot about myself and why M was so attractive for me.

ciao.....wolfie.......I have to get my trip together, to move in another building..

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 11:38:28 (GMT)
From: don puerco
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Mainz was unbelivebale....Bing Bam Boom!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
i agree wolfie..except for maharaji himself the whole event
was a very slush sobstuff happy family affair...while watching
them videos the only thought in my head was a zappa song entitled
'the torture never stops' . i was glad to escape in the break, thus i could not get a glance of daya and amar..ooh...
maharaji seems to be real scared by all these exes that he has to
distribute such horrible make believe family videos.next time i'll have to thoroughly check when exactly he will be on stage,coz the rest is really negligable.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:32:16 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: A_Mainz_ing GRACE...la la la la
Message:
Hi Wolfie. Glad you had a good time. I know it's sad that this little 'reality check' of Maha & Marolyn getting counselled was hard but that goes to show you how deep the 'reality' is buried.

It sounds like you were the perfect gentleman. Don't let her fears tell you what you should and shouldn't say, it's up to people to process info the way CAN. Other people are GREATFUL for information and will thank you the rest of their life.

Keep us posted. You're like a real-time fly on the wall!

Welcome back!

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 19:32:16 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: A_Mainz_ing GRACE...la la la la
Message:
Hi Wolfie. Glad you had a good time. I know it's sad that this little 'reality check' of Maha & Marolyn getting counselled was hard but that goes to show you how deep the 'reality' is buried.

It sounds like you were the perfect gentleman. Don't let her fears tell you what you should and shouldn't say, it's up to people to process info the way CAN. Other people are GREATFUL for information and will thank you the rest of their life.

Keep us posted. You're like a real-time fly on the wall!

Welcome back!

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:22:10 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Mainz was unbelivebale....Bing Bam Boom!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
thnaks alot for reporting...and being honest with your friends for sure.
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 15:55:15 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Powerful post wolfie LOL
Message:
Wolfie,

I laughed out loud at if this videos are not a tool for brainwahing, then I change my sex. Hilarious way to say it. Also After the progamm on sunday, for an hour or so, I felt like a mashed potatoe... is very descriptive.

Isn't it amazing how powerful and seductive the experience of nostalgia is. I went to Long Beach event after not practicing K or seeing M for 7 years. I was stunned by the wave of affection I felt when the old photos were projected and instrumental versions of the old devotional songs were played. Eventually I snapped out of it and all that stuff rang as true as Christmas Carols on the Muzac at K-Mart.

The fact that your friend freaked out at just knowing that M&M went to therapy is representative, IMHO, of the disbelief many premies can't handle. No wonder there is so much anti-ex activity. The truth hurts but eventually will set you free. You did the right thing.

Richard who has also felt like mashed potatoes and french fries on occassion

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 14:41:40 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: thanks too, for the report
Message:
as anybody can see by that little example with the girl that
couldnt take the Dr. Kasarola-information.
The cult is harmfully misleading people into a completely unreal
environment.

This must be stopped.
We must stop it.
I emailed the mayor of Mainz before the event, if they could do
something about it.
The answer was , that the sect didn't make any public problems
in the past, so it is hard to do something about it.

But we know!

Toby

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 08:48:41 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Thanks Wolfie....(nt)
Message:
zzzzz
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:49:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My objection to Maharaji
Message:
Is not about his plane, his boat, his house, his porking blondies, his money, his drinking, his somking, his his his.

My objection to Maharaji is : 'he should stop claiming that he is a master'.

He should tell the truth about how he was promoted to be one.

I don't mind him teaching meditation, in fact I will accept him saying that he is a meditation teacher. I will also accept if he says I have one way of meditation and this is a video or a CD of it, give me 50 bucks.

Anything else won't do. So what do you think Mr. Charles and Pia? Where is the hate in that?

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 07:41:17 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: i would accept that as honest, from him.
Message:
anybody else have an opinion about it?
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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:53:18 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: My objection to Maharaji
Message:
Does this mean that you have already stopped recommending auto-knowledge to your friends?

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:05:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here, there and everywhere
Message:
That's where I'll be posting. I'm not getting into this battle. Wherever my hot air is coin of the realm, and the company is good, there I'll be.

love, F

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Date: Mon, Jul 09, 2001 at 05:34:58 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Here, there and everywhere
Message:
that the idea of being free. If EV had a forum I'll even post there. Actually am so desperate to tell them how much I appreciate what m and k done to me. I really really like it and enjoy it, being free of course.
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