Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:24:11 (GMT)
From: Jul 06, 2001 To: Jul 15, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Abi -:- Bye Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 05:25:21 (GMT)
__ Carlos -:- Abi, your post gives me the first reason -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:10:12 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Bye Jim - epitaph for a fighter - thanks Abi -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 07:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Jim lives -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:00:18 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Jesus, he didn't die for pete's sake! -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:22:31 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Sorry Pat, but this is bullshit -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 12:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Sorry John, let me make myself clear -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 22:37:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- No, that wasn't bullshit -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 14:24:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- I wasn't talking about Jim -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 18:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- But Jim is a good example -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:38:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Way, this isn't true -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Joe, you're right -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 15:35:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Very diplomatic, Way -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 18:06:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Your definition of tact is (inaccurate = tactful, -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:55:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Not quite right, Carlos -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- please don't push me, Way -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:54:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Katie, what I would like to say to you -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 02:11:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Katie, what I would like to say to you -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 02:44:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Okay! I hear you, subject closed ............../nt -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 03:10:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Deborah, I know your intentions are good -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:02:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanks Katie...I email you later -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 20:23:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- No more pushing -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:26:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Way (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:28:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- None of this is dependent on Jim (or any of us) -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 17:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- None of this is dependent on Jim (or any of us) -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 01:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Could it be? -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:14:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Could it be? -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 16:17:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Could it be? -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 16:44:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Messy layers of frozen crap -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Needing someone who you think knows more than you -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- yup -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:51:10 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- and he was soo funny -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- I am sure he will pop up somewhere else -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 11:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- I am sure he will pop up somewhere else -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:48:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- The lies and hate on Life's Great... -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:59:17 (GMT)

janet -:- repost from Lifes great (mine ©) -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 04:07:44 (GMT)
__ salam -:- janet , note -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- janet , Your a great writer.......nt -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:55:10 (GMT)
__ __ Carlos -:- She waives the copyright only to use by the forum, -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:47:03 (GMT)
__ Cw -:- repost from Lifes great (mine ©) -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Don't worry Catweasel (mine ©) -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 08:20:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill-that is Ted Patrick -:- the deprogrammer's technique......nt -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:29:56 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- Dear MK -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:47:54 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- Dear MK -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:37:48 (GMT)
__ MK -:- Dear Ian -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:58:23 (GMT)

Mark N -:- A harmless poem -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:10:06 (GMT)

JohnT -:- Mel Bourne's post on Lifes Great -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:35:57 (GMT)
__ The actual post -:- Mel Bourne's post on Lifes Great -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:11:31 (GMT)

Joe -:- Conversation with a 'premie' -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:55:35 (GMT)
__ Way -:- My own conversation with a 'premie' -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 14:05:32 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- My own conversation with a 'premie' OUCH -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 11:17:15 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Conversation with a 'friend' -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:42:21 (GMT)
__ bill-Jim and Deb would -:- have been correct to blast the guy...nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Sorry, not sure what you meant by that remark -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 23:49:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Try to understand the victim under the premie. -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 00:33:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I do! Read my post above... -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 03:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- it is a matter of timing...luck of the draw,,nt -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:36:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- What does that mean?.............../nt -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 01:58:56 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- Conversation with a 'premie' -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Goober, the Hegelian master -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Hi Ger! Who was Hegel again? NT -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 17:54:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I fergit, Rick, I think I was stoned when I wrote -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 21:34:27 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Clear insights joe! nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:58:34 (GMT)

Richard -:- The obvious value of EPO -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:18:08 (GMT)
__ michael donner -:- The obvious value of EPO -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- EPO vs. the forum -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:34:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- EPO vs. the forum -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 05:35:06 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- The obvious value of EPO -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:32:01 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- I agree: The obvious value of EPO -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:42:28 (GMT)

Loaf -:- M on TV in the USA -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:42:47 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- FYI: Maharaji Video on Dish Tonight..... -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 23:00:51 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Oy Vey -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 16:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Piranhas Eat My Brain.... -:- Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 19:28:57 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- I want my, I want my, I want my MTV.... -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ Monmot -:- Money for nothing, and chicks for free...nt -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 23:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Respects to Dire Straits (I think) (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:29:15 (GMT)
__ janet -:- M on TV in the USA--where were you n what channel? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ Paul -:- It was in NYC, regular cable and -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Paul, can we talk about 'how to contactt station' -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:51:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Paul -:- Although no longer in NYC, I'll see what I can -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 18:38:34 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- no idea jan.. satellite and it was B something -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- I saw it......It's 'BTV'......nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:05:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Gee, did M come on before or after Gangaji? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:41:03 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Very interesting but what to do now? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:36:41 (GMT)
__ Mili -:- Why not use your 'AG' forum, Dave? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:33:34 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Surely YOU of all people should not want that -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:43:09 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Sir Dave, help us get back on track -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:04:07 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Consider it done -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 01:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Consider it done -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:54:18 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- The forum will have to move -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:03:49 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Okay, but that sucks!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 14:02:52 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- r.e. forum[s],synergy, + stop n smell da roses... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:04:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, Such, I hear you -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:35:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- r.e. forum[s],synergy, + stop n smell da roses... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- r.e. forum[s],synergy, + stop n smell da roses... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 23:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- I said this below, but.... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I said this below, but.... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:15:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- John, are you going to do this? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:40:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- John, are you going to do this? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:45:39 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Very interesting but what to do now? Nothing. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Prediction: Short retirement for Jim..... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:42:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Better have a consequence system up by then..nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:32:55 (GMT)
__ __ JHB (Forum Admin) -:- To those who voted for the forum to stay here -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:25:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Where will it go? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Where will it go? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:11:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill-This post by Deb -:- is completely unacceptable. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:23:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ulf -:- is completely unacceptable. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:34:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanks for your support ulf! -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- this is one of many and she is proud of this. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- This was in response to RICHARD II's horrid post -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Bill, personally I agree with you -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:29:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Deleting is not my goal. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Where will it go? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cum Links? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- You got it, Joe -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Be Here Now -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:17:33 (GMT)
__ donner -:- Very interesting but what to do now? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:38:25 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Very interesting but what to do now? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:35:15 (GMT)
__ Jorge -:- Question -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:29:26 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Leave it alone for awhile. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Leave it alone for awhile. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 13:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I say give it some time. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 13:19:58 (GMT)
__ Patrick W -:- Very interesting but what to do now? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:59:41 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Patrick, thanks very much -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 12:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- GREAT POST Patrick and you ... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Eloquent and sensible Patrick W -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:31:07 (GMT)
__ bill-This is not anything -:- goes. There are consequences here. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Bill Burke should be banned !!!. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:43:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill-egad, it that one of -:- the dastardly deeds? Time out time I guess!..nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Where is HERE? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:46:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill-you being FA and -:- having this be anything goes is not a solution..nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:18:35 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- After the Tornado: Picking up the pieces -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ bill-free for all- is -:- irresponsible. Jim wont listen about abuse....nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:32:15 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- whats the problem ? could someone fill me in ? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- What really got Jim banned. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:50:55 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- down below and in the inactive, if you read -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- A correction, and one important omission -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- I saw that thread before it dissapeared -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:31:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Ridiculious Janet -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:04:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Ridicul[i]ous? Janet- -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:10:54 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Yes, here's a brief summary -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:39:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Appendix -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And some are at both Forums -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 23:40:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- thanx salaam , janet and Dave... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- This way folks! -:- Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 01:12:53 (GMT)

Marianne -:- Two Feet's Insightful Reality Check -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:46:49 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Reality check -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:15:22 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- This just has to be mentioned -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 07:53:11 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- What did MJ say that would make YOU hoot now? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:56:27 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- 'When you meditate, meditate for yourself... -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Maybe Maharaji needs to heal and move on? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- 'It's like, you know this is a path, and like, -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 13:18:28 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- cognacji:'would you please get your nose out of my -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:01:08 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- What did MJ say that would make YOU hoot now? -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 03:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Knowledge as peanut butter - By His Grace -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 07:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- The naieve, the adolescent, the unbalanced -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- if you don't laugh, you cry (nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:04:15 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- a silver lining:internet evolution + reality check -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:58:47 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Cool!......................../nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:08:01 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Thanks so much SUCH! love and -----n/t -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:29:55 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Francesca -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 17:04:47 (GMT)
__ Gina -:- words of *such* wisdom, compassion and clarity. nt -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:35:00 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- reality check - amen, Swami -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:36:25 (GMT)

Lesley -:- Rationality and emotionality -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 22:01:22 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Rationality versus emotionality? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 23:23:33 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- copernicus ot -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 03:09:55 (GMT)

Nelson -:- 'I see no ships' - long post -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:02:02 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Thanks, Nelson -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 08:08:28 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Rawat on cable TV in the US ? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:55:03 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- I couldn't stand it. -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 04:27:11 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Rawat on cable TV in the US ? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:07:13 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- It'll help old Ted Farkel and that TRAC center ... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:42:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Could use a little TED, Pauline and Larkin now /nt -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:50:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Thank You Richard -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thank YOU Pauline! -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:38:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Pauline I just love you to bits -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rawat on cable TV in the US ? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:32:30 (GMT)
__ __ Voyeur -:- Rawat on cable TV in the US ? -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Rawat on cable TV in the US ?Possibly.... -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 23:36:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Regarding Raja Ji -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Other way around dear -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:44:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Other way around dear -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:22:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Been There -:- RJ and crock o'shit -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 00:25:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- RJ and crock o'shit -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:58:12 (GMT)

Way -:- German surprise -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:45:11 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- German surprise is really no surprise! -:- Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- The sickest thing about the Mainz event -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:20:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- The sickest thing about the Mainz event--yuccck -:- Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:23:41 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 05:25:21 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Bye Jim
Message:
I know people are trying to move away from this subject and get back on track but I just wanted to write something short about Jim. I stumbled across epo in 97 and he was the first person I contacted because I was so impressed with his intelligence and integrity. He knows more about what I've been through with the cult than most because I totally trust his integrity. He's really been there for me in a way that no-one else has. He's never manipulated the information I've given him and always given me sound feedback. He's been part of my support loop for four years and I'll always be greatful to him for that. He was always the very first person I turned to when things got difficult and he always gave me compassionate and wise support. None of that support was about using what I told him to further his own agenda in any way. I'll always respect him for that. He has far more integrity than most. He's been a true and loyal friend to me.

Very sad to see him go.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:10:12 (GMT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, your post gives me the first reason
Message:
to respect Jim as a person I've ever had. Because of the way he supported you I'll be glad to cut him some slack, should the need ever arise.

You know him, I don't. How do you reconcile his being verbally abusive (which is still abuse) to so many, both PWKs and exes, with his obviously (from your description) sweet and gentle treatment of you? Or was his behavior to others just irrelevant to you (understandable, if so. No critisism implied.) Or did you just let it go 'cause we all have warts? I'm just curious; please don't feel compelled to reply in any way. My issues over Jim are my problem, and I need to work them out, not you.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 07:20:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Bye Jim - epitaph for a fighter - thanks Abi
Message:
I agree with every word that you said. Jim's biggest fault is that he prefers not to be two-faced which is the first requirement for diplomacy and tact - which no one will dispute he lacks.

I did not know him as long as you did but it was a pleasure to know him for that short time. I've got to add something funny for him or he would never forgive me.

And most people did not understand his sense of humor. May he rest in peace.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:00:18 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Jim lives
Message:
I did not always agree with Jim's approach, he could be rude and abrupt, but I never had reason to doubt his motives and committment to tell it like it is about the cult and M.

I believe in free speech and I do not always have to find agreement in ones particular style of communication to get what is being said. Jim could cut to the chase quicker than anyone and he would not suffer fools making his point.

Warm and fuzzy he was not, articulate, intelligent, concise and brutally honest he was, I think he was an important ingredient in the mix and I will miss his input

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:22:31 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Jesus, he didn't die for pete's sake!
Message:
Yes, he had humor but tact? How many people did he tell to 'fuck off'?

Anyways, I will miss him too!

He's finally free!

I like to think of Jim as an Arnold Schwartznegger type of guy. And who could ever forget Arnold's most famous line as Terminator? 'I'll be back.'

Love to you, and BTY, your banning demands, in posts a few days past, were absolutely hilarious!

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 12:17:23 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sorry Pat, but this is bullshit
Message:
he prefers not to be two-faced which is the first requirement for diplomacy and tact.

There is no way that people who behave diplomatically or tactfully can or should be described as two-faced.

In case you haven't noticed, that's how we all get on with other people. I'm sure you behave tactfully in your restaurant, and I'm also sure you are not two-faced (well maybe sometimes with some obnoxious customer!).

And I must say your post was not very tactful:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 22:37:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sorry John, let me make myself clear
Message:
I said: ''...he prefers not to be two-faced which is the first requirement for diplomacy and tact - which no one will dispute he lacks.''

I simply said Jim was not two-faced but did not say anyone else WAS. Except I know that I can be. I have to be two-faced with people I don't like such as one or two customers per year maybe and I have been chummy with CW and other premies in an attmept to be tactful and have usually regretted it immediately.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 14:24:31 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: No, that wasn't bullshit
Message:
I want to submit my defense of Jim. He has said on Anything Goes that he is really quiting. I don't know if he will even lurk. I am sorry to see him go.

I think Maharaji is doing a serious disservice to people and needs to be stopped. Please see Joe's post below about his conversation with a premie. Maharaji's message is that people having an evil ignorance inside them that requires them to become lifelong devotees. Rawat is a fraud who claims to be the current savior. We need to stop him.

Jim's energy should be used, not squelched. If he goes overboard and needs to be balanced out by another voice from time to time, then that is perfectly possible, and usually happens.

'Diplomacy' and 'tact' are in fact euphemisms for 'two-faced.' 'Two-faced' is just a tactless way of saying it. If diplomats from all the different countries were like Jim, there would be continual war on this planet.

Pat is completely right about Jim. He is the opposite of polite and some people just don't like that. I myself am not a fan of politeness. I once fell in love with a person. He was always so polite to me. Even when I wanted to have an honest conversation with him, he would just be polite. I started to hate politeness then.

Of course we have to be polite with each other and thank God not everybody is so free with the 'fuck yous' like Jim is! But there is a reason why this website exists. A good reason. As long as Prem Pal Singh Rawat is out there deluding people into believing that he is some kind of savior, then this site should be here, and be strong.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 18:18:55 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I wasn't talking about Jim
Message:
I was talking about Pat claiming that being tactful and diplomatic is being two-faced.

Concise Oxford Dictionary:-

tact: Intuitive perception of what is fitting esp. of the right thing to do in order to avoid giving offence or to gain goodwill, adroitness in dealing with persons or circumstances.

two-faced: having two faces, (fig.) insincere.

Although someone who is tactful could also be insincere, I think the usual use of the word excludes insincerity. Being insincere is usually considered derogatory; being tactful is usually considered to be a compliment.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:38:47 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: But Jim is a good example
Message:
JHB,

This is just semantics of course, and not really important. But to clarify my position: Tact is used to not offend. That automatically implies that a person is being careful to present one face and not the other possibly offensive one, metaphorically speaking. There is, as you are insisting, nothing wrong with being tactful, in fact it is nearly always advisable, and comes from a sincere desire for harmony. But it is not always sincere in the sense of being totally truthful. Thus, we have a continuum upon which both two-faced insincerity and goodwilled diplomacy both occur.

Jim is an example of a person who should never be a diplomat but who could sometimes come in handy when dealing with terribly two-faced people like Prem Pal Singh Rawat and his devotees.

I am not trying to challenge your position on Jim. I respect the work you are doing.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:43:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way, this isn't true
Message:
I have seen Jim be very diplomatic when he wanted to be.

For example, a certain individual showed up on the Forum some time ago, with lots of good information on M, but who was, how can I say it, heavily into the new-age, astrology, etc.

Jim treated this person with respect and kid gloves. If it was an ex-premie without that kind of information, or a premie, he would have evicerated them.

Also, Michael Dettmers was another example. For quite some time, Michael was ambivalent about what he should say, if anything at all, and was refusing to discuss what he knew about Maharaji. Unlike some of the rest of us, Jim was completely diplomatic and refrained (and I was astonished) from attacking him. I call this diplomacy in both cases, because Jim saw that other issues were more important than arguing.

So, I disagree with your evaluation of Jim.

I also disagree that being diplomatic is being two-faced. It depends on the goal. If you are trying to engage and discuss with people, diplomacy is better. But there is also something to be said for just being direct.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 15:35:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you're right
Message:
Joe,

I, too, noticed those times that Jim was uncharacteristically mild mannered. I forgot about that.

As for the various connotations of being two-faced, I think I will tactfully retire at this point.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 18:06:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Very diplomatic, Way
Message:
As for the various connotations of being two-faced, I think I will tactfully retire at this point.

Spoken like a true diplomat.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:55:53 (GMT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Your definition of tact is (inaccurate = tactful,
Message:
bogus = untactful). Any event, thing or situation can be described tactfully or untactfully. When communication is important, tact is useful. When confrontation, even at the cost of risking comunication, is the goal, tact is undesirable.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:44:59 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Not quite right, Carlos
Message:
Carlos,

Your first statement about anything being described either tactfully or untactfully is true enough, but hardly worth mentioning.

Your second statement isn't quite accurate. You say: 'When communication is important, tact is useful.' But no - when communication is important, sometimes tact is useful and sometimes it isn't. For example, if somebody asks your opinion about their new hairdo, then tact can be useful, but when somebody asks you if you think they are so badly hurt that they should go to the hospital, then tact is not useful or the least bit required.

Your last statement, about tactfulness being undesirable when confrontation is the goal, is a valid point, but an idiotic one.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:54:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: please don't push me, Way
Message:
I respect you very much. But I hardly think it's 'completely truthful' for someone to claim that they have a 'right' to know something that they already DO know - and in doing so, mislead other people.
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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 02:11:54 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, what I would like to say to you
Message:
Katie, in defense of Jim and his subsequence lynching, I would like to mention the following:

It is in my opinion that you are isolating only one detail of this fiasco and asserting your defensive argument out of context.

This was a reactionary tactic Jim did, not an action. It's a complicated issue because of all the variables. Lots of layers of who did what, who said what, and so on.

I'm obviously willing to re-think how I feel about you and your hubby and JHB and Bazza and everything that happened.

I would rather hear you say, 'I'm sorry I tried to persuade all of you that this was All about Jim'. He was, however, playing both you to reveal something you didn't want to come forth. Brian throwing one of Jim's posts up on line as the final act of revenge was also unwarranted. That was a post. It was meant for us. Glasser did not receive that as an email. People are now confusing posts with actual legal communique.

The winds have settled, and you're here but where is Jim. He contributed much too much to this forum to be so callously rejected. For feelings about being abused are apparently not shared by over half the camp. The abuse is how you chose to 'feel' about it. Jim is not here in the flesh, he's here as a poster. This is not a fully fleshed out characterization of who he is. Perhaps if would of met him and shared some social moments you would of heard the irony in his tone.

Let me share a personal story with you:

The first time I posted here as a non-ex (K-81 was the handle I used if any of you remember)I got hit with one of his confronting post taunting me about why I only had fond memories of M & K. And I was sweet as candy and extremely respectful of the ex-premies. I didn't want to argue with anyone so I never posted again. Six months later I receive an email from guess who? Jim. He says that he was going through the archives and observed from my email that I was in fact, in the same city as he. Would I be interested in going for a cup of coffee and talk? What a nice friendly and charming voice. Yes, said I, that would great. I'd like to ask you about your experience. For some reason or another it never happened and I thought OH Well, maybe another time when I feel like it. Because my phone call was on such a friendly note, I remembered him and thought one day I'll go back and stir up communication and find out what these exes are talking about. When I decided to peek back into the forum I was literally floored and emotionally fell apart at the shock of how deep this was and was literally weeping and shaking while placing my initial posts. Jim posted a thread asking me to drop by. He was wonderful, charming, witty, clever, hospitable, and a heck of a lot of fun. He has this cool apartment, an incredibly bright, successful, attractive, and warm-hearted girlfriend and his friends and neighbours obviously admired him. His ironic tone was always present when I read his posts. I could actually visualize that perpetual if not impish grin on his face. His mind is like mercury, it's brilliant and I admired his fortitude.

His indominatable strength catapulted this forum to where it is today. Needless to say, he deserves more credit than criticism.

Jim is gone and I know it shouldn't have happened this way. Even if he enjoys being away, it's wrong that he was discarded in this damaging way. I can't begin to justify it.

You may not get the chance to apologize to each other now that he's gone. Trust me, you may view this whole debacle differently in time.

What surprises me is how quick we are learning to accept culpability for our actions and reactions. I'm proud of this quality in all of us.

I personally want to convey my deepest heart-felt apologies for my reactions to you, and perhaps you can forward that message to Brian for me because I believe I burnt that bridge to the ground.

I reacted outed integrity for what I perceived to be happening. The hurricane was in full fury when I jumped in and I did not have the emotional distance nor stability to handle myself appropriately.

Luckily, I found the 'eye' of the hurricane and am currently experiencing the absense of the torrential winds.

Take care :}

And you take care too, Jim :}

Sorry you're gone :{

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 02:44:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Katie, what I would like to say to you
Message:
OK Deborah -
First, Brian did not 'throw one of Jim's posts on line'. I don't know who that guy, Joe, was who posted it, but it wasn't Brian. We already knew about that post, and didn't repost it (although we did pay attention to it.)

Also, I am not trying to persuade ANYONE that it's 'all about Jim' - I do not know where you get that from. I think the whole thing is a big mess, and I certainly don't think Jim caused it. (Neither do I believe he was lynched.) What I objected to is the characterization of Jim as 'never two-faced' - because, as we've both just seen, he was. You can call it 'tactical' or 'reactionary', but it wasn't completely honest.

And, to tell you the truth, I didn't think what Brian wrote in that e-mail to Charles was 'a betrayal' or whatever. He has said similar things on the forum to Jim's face - if anything, the contents of the e-mail was more mild than a lot of things he has said. (And surely you must be aware of some of the things Jim has said about me to premies here and elsewhere - what's the difference?) But I disagree COMPLETELY with the idea that anyone here, Brian, Jim, Jean-Michel, you, whoever, has any kind of obligation to post their personal e-mails, no matter who they are written to.

I know Jim has helped a lot of people here, and I am sure he has many friends in real life, and can be a great guy, etc. Believe it or not, I have defended him on the forum many times in the past (although not vice versa :)!) But he and I have NEVER really gotten along, and I will spare you the details of why I believe that it would be better if we never contacted each other again. Believe me, it wouldn't work for me - I've tried it. I also do not believe I owe him an apology - and, as you know, I will apologize when I feel that I am in the wrong.

Again, you don't know the whole story, and what has been going on for the past four years, and I wish you wouldn't make assumptions about how I'm feeling, or how other people here are feeling (including percentages of people who are taking one side or another.) I've found that most people here hate these personal arguments and don't pay attention to the details, thus don't really take sides.

I'll relay your message to Brian, but he's pretty burned out right now and I believe he needs some space. But *I* appreciate your apology.

One more thing - the status quo here is changing very rapidly now. I hear what you are saying in your post, but things might be very different tomorrow - that's the way it's been on this forum since I've been here. I believe that the longer you are here, the more perspective you will get on the people and personal events here.

Glad you're in the 'eye' - but maybe it wasn't a hurricane after all, and most of it has passed over.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 03:10:21 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Okay! I hear you, subject closed ............../nt
Message:
Just put it out there, that's all.
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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:02:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Deborah
Subject: Deborah, I know your intentions are good
Message:
But maybe we ought to talk about this via e-mail - if you want.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 20:23:58 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie...I email you later
Message:
But in all fairness, it if feel that way towards Jim, I don't have to try, nor do I want, to convince you otherwise.

My concerns are about the things that are left here as perpetual evidence. I'm concerned more about the BIGGER issues.

By the way, who's this Sheriff Bill following me all around the forum asking questions for other posters. Does he really think he's a sheriff. Thilly wabbit, trix are for kidz.

I wasn't expecting a response, thanx Katie.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:26:04 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No more pushing
Message:
Katie,

I know you feel badly about the whole situation. And I've witnessed Jim pushing you around untactfully. My perspective is that Jim has a soft heart, but a tough skin, and he doesn't undertand that some people are soft in both places. And he is not always correct.

I haven't been able to understand the whole 'episode' so I don't really know what you are talking about specifically, nor do I hope to.

Take good care,

Way

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 20:28:59 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks, Way (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 17:27:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: None of this is dependent on Jim (or any of us)
Message:
The key to all this, IMO, is not any individual person and the way they approach all this. It's the collective contributions and growth of everyone.

I think Jim is glad to be away from Forum V. It was an obsession for him, which is a potential pitfall for any of us. And he knew, and expressed openly, that it was a real problem for him. I think getting bannned had the silver lining of helping him out there, but for how long I don't know.

I don't think it's really helpful to do all this freaking out that Jim is gone. He is nobody's leader. He's just Jim, a real person who has a real life.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 01:10:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: None of this is dependent on Jim (or any of us)
Message:
Joe,
You have a lot of common sense. If I am ever freaking out on some bad acid, man, you are the guy I would call. Seriously, it's always surprised me what a powerful figure Jim is for alot of people here. I think he's attracted such a 'following' because he has such a strong personality with such strong opinions and isn't afraid to express them, traits on the other end of the continuum from the intellectual and moral dessert of premiedom. But it makes me uncomfortable how people kind of worship that about Jim too, because sometimes Jim is just plain flat-out wrong. I feel like people are blinded by his strong personality and haven't done him any favors by being in such awe.

So seeing you say, 'He's just Jim, a real person who has a real life' is a good reality check. Anyway thank you.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:14:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Could it be?
Message:
Could there be some tendency among those of us who were willing to give our lives over to a guru, to revere 'leaders?' Could it be that Jim, for some people, fulfilled that role?

The more I've been communicating with premies, the more I think that the Maharaji cult is a cult of low self esteem. Like the guy I was talking to over the phone, and some of the premies on 'Lifes Great' they seem to all have accepted this idea that they don't know anything, are defective, and need somebody to 'improve' them. I wonder if some of that tendency might carry over into ex-premies.

I know that about a year after I left the cult, I was going to therapy with a psychiatrist. I couldn't figure out why it wasn't working, and then I realized I was making 'guru' out of him. Instead of just using him to help me see what was going on, I was looking for him to cure or purify me. I immediately fired him (over his objections) and got a new therapist, armed with that insight.

Just a theory.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 16:17:29 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Could it be?
Message:
I agree that cults involve low self esteem and that cult followers have the tendency to want a strong leader to follow until they outgrow that and become more comfortable being the authority of their own lives.

Cults involve a host of other psychological issues as well, all discussed here. The one issue I am most intrigued by is the tendency of cult followers to shut down or dissociate when life gets too stressful, and the difficulties cult follwers have trusting people and forming healthy attachments. I often wonder about attachment disorders and gurus. It certainly took me a long time to learn how to bond with a man in a healthy way after the unhealthy attachment with my dad and then with Maharaji and my other guru. Being the perfect pure angel of God was a role that wasn't compatible with a healthy physical relationship with a man, and becoming a mom certainly was a great deal more primal than anything I had experienced as a premie. There's plenty of fodder there for a lifetime of therapy I am sure.

I've learned alot about putting people on pedestals and I have had people do that to me as well. Someone told me it's actually a hostile place to put someone because they have no place to go but down.

I think you did the right thing with your therapist since you realized that you were in a negative sort of bonding pattern with them. That took alot of insight.
Take care

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 16:44:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Could it be?
Message:
Cults involve a host of other psychological issues as well, all discussed here. The one issue I am most intrigued by is the tendency of cult followers to shut down or dissociate when life gets too stressful, and the difficulties cult follwers have trusting people and forming healthy attachments.

Very true. It took me years after the cult to form a healthy relationship, and it took lots of work. Maybe these things are connected. I think part of the problem with forming relationships is the lack of self-esteem, perhaps looking to a relationship partner to help in the 'improvement' process, and, of course, Maharaji is in the middle of any relationship. There is another person in the relationship bed, a person that, since he more of an imaginary friend/lover than a real person, it's difficult to do anything about.\

God, the whole thing is wretched. I mean, you can kind of see the external problems of being in a cult, but the more 'internal' ones are more insidious, because the person might seem superficially okay. The whole thing gives me the creeps.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 23:33:27 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Messy layers of frozen crap
Message:
I know. It is totally creepy. I am goign to get some more therapy because I feel like I am stuck in a traumatic event that occured during my guru days, a botched surgical procedure I had when I almost died. I was so vulnerable and there I was surrendering myself so innocently on the operating table, and thinking my guru would make it all okay, and it wasn't okay.

It's funny because all other traumas in my adult life, I have dealt with and have bounced back (ie, healing my relationship with my parents, Gary getting cancer last year, his sister dying, etc). But I seem stuck in this one traumatic event from the past. I have a name of a social worker who specializes in that particular issue and I think I will go for it.

I have to say that I am very grateful that I found the forum which is a place that gave me a framework for all of this messy emotional stuff from the cult days. It's like it was this frozen stuff inside of me from my past that I couldn't even look at, it was too painful.

Anyway, Joe thank you for being such a stable force here the last few days. It's helpful.
Gotta go finish a huge editing project so I can go on vacation tomorrow. YEAH!

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 14:57:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Needing someone who you think knows more than you
Message:
Or, rather, needing someone who you think knows more than you about life in general, or seems to be more sure about his/her own beliefs than you are.

I'm not sure if this is always connected with low self-esteem in other areas, but a lot of premies and exes seem to have this trait.

I've told you my own story about this, Joe - what I did after exiting the cult - and won't repeat it here because it sounds so dumb :).

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:51:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: yup
Message:
HI Helen,
Joe has always been one I could count on to be grounded.
I dont know how he does it frankly, but I agree with you.

You know, Jim also attracted a following of premies who
pester us still.
I think they will calm down without all the prodding they got.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:56:03 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: and he was soo funny
Message:
Dry, witty, smart. Not at all sentimental which is refeshing sometimes. And he was just brilliant too.

sob...

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 11:49:33 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I am sure he will pop up somewhere else
Message:
In the meantime I dont want to desert this place which has in itself been a haven - and personalities come and go...


Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:48:03 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I am sure he will pop up somewhere else
Message:
Good for you Loaf. As for me I need some space, as we all do from time to time. It's all been a bit freaky recently and I'm not sure what to make of it. And it was a bit disturbing going into Lifes great and witnessing the hate from some of those nice guys. Toxic.

bye

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:59:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: The lies and hate on Life's Great...
Message:
Speak volumes of what is really happening to the cult and it's victims. It's a sympton of a disease process which is coming to the forefront. The cult is starting to implode upon itself and although like a tiny reservoir of smallpox somewhere in the world; there will always be devotees (followers), M at this point, had better hope that all that savy investment he claims carries him and his into his old age. If worse comes to worse, M can always sell his watch collection.
The believers are getting fewer and fewer, the donations are way off and the real TRUTH is surfacing for all to see. What you see on LG is the death throes of a cult.

Just my opinion and I don't think it is all together wishful thinking. Premies were never what you would call stupid. In fact, most of them, are the cream of civilized society.

Take care, I miss Jim too, that SOB!

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 04:07:44 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: repost from Lifes great (mine ©)
Message:
this in response to a premie crowing that they have somehow broken up the forum and EPO and brought about ths state of disarray. he claims 'we did it! the forum closes at the end of July'.
to which spoke thus:

correction: what they have said, was, the forum moves to a separate location at the end of july. it doesn't end.

and it's quite strange that you think you did anything. in reality, each person who was party to the unfoldment acted only as/for/by ( and where applicable,dishonored solely) themselves. and aside from glasser's illegal theft and use of copyrighted original writings without permission, for defamatory public diarrhea, all of the players in the drama were no longer premies.
you didn't do any of it.
for that matter, neither did maharaji.

you could take a personal lesson from understanding what each of those human beings did. or you will be in the same rueful position yourself.

tell us what 'you' 'did'.
did you reveal the private identity of a poster?
did you contact them at their place of business?
did you lift original writings without the author's permission and put them on your site?
did you claim to have legal clout that you actually didn't?
did you steal private email you knew you had no right to ?
did you give that stolen mail to someone else you also knew was not authorized to access it?
did you have the integrity to apologize to the person whose information and private communication was made public, and pledge to cooperate in helping them rectify whatever damage they might have sustained?
did you bait the author of the stolen mail to reveal its contents? did you inflame onlookers with dishonest provocation? did you imply untruthfully to the gallery that they had been wronged by that author?
did you dissemble as if you did not know the contents of the letter, when you already held it?
did you publicly try to humiliate the honest and conscientious work of the individuals who do the work that you can't be bothered with?
did you use every trick in the book to deflect the spotlight away from your crimes by attacking your identifier?
did you have to weigh vast responsibility against personal worth, and make the decision whether to close the site for thousands, close the forum for thousands, ban the criminal, sever the forum from your labor out of a sense of duty, or to abdicate your post entirely, in response to unmerited disrespect for your years of time and expertise?
did you take a principled stand against humanly flawed judgement? did you make any reasoned, calm appeals for valuing what was important, for improving conduct in light of lessons learned? did you crystallize fairly for newcomers a balanced synopsis of what took place, without losing your equilibrium?
Have you kept clearly central to your sight the value of all individuals to reclaim themselves, to help them identify what it is that troubles them, what clarifies their sentiments and dispositions for them, what they feel helps them most, and remained open and accepting of how they process their understanding?
have you done any of this?
if you have not, them you cannot claim any part of this chain of events.

no.

you did none of these things.
the individuals who have just come through these passages are the only human beings who can rightfully be said to have done anything.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 09:43:05 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet , note
Message:
by posting on the forum you lose all right to what you say and type. Read the forum introduction. Only a reminder.
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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:55:10 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: janet , Your a great writer.......nt
Message:
sdfhgd
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 19:47:03 (GMT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: She waives the copyright only to use by the forum,
Message:
ie, its webmaster, and FAs, and not in their private persons but only acting as EPO or F% FA. YOU have no rights without her permision, IMO. I'm not a lawyer. But it is certaain the dislaimer you're reminding her of gives you, nor any other poster, any rights.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:39:45 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: repost from Lifes great (mine ©)
Message:
Yeah?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 08:20:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: Don't worry Catweasel (mine ©)
Message:
We're gonna love bomb all the premies on Forum 6 in a new and gentler Luv Club. No need for blocks and other instruments of torture, not unless you're into that kind of thing.

I read through your post above several times and on the fifth reading it made a lot of sense.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:29:56 (GMT)
From: bill-that is Ted Patrick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: the deprogrammer's technique......nt
Message:
dfhfh
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:47:54 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Dear MK
Message:

I have just read some of your 'posts' on Life's Great.

Maharaji must be very proud of you!

What an example of how Knowledge can transform someone's life.

You should be an instructor!

Jai Satchitanand!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 13:37:48 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Dear MK
Message:
That's really funny!
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 06:58:23 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Dear Ian
Message:
Hi Ian,

Yea I read them this morning too and was shocked and annoyed.
I don't know who (well, I have an idea) is doing it or why but that person posted several messages using my initials. I replied and posted a warning/alert about it.

Fortunately, the fake 'MK' is incapable of writing in correct English and has a rather shallow spiteful manner. So the difference is quite apparent to those who know my writing.

I do lash out (as you can see below) but it is only when every other avenue of polite communication has been exhausted.

Thanks for your post, I don't blame you getting the satirical stick out.
For my two cents about this forum debate... I feel this one here is by far the most credible and well presented of the ex.premie web pages. My hope is that it stays right here and that K and B continue with the main site and have a hand in the appointment of Forum 6 FA's. I'm also hoping that flaming anonymouse premie trolls like me might be able to add our squeeky voices from time to time (under strictly controlled guidelines of course!)

stay well,
MK

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:10:06 (GMT)
From: Mark N
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A harmless poem
Message:
Brian is tired
Katie is wired

Jim has gone
Patc went along

FV is expiring
FA is retiring

Sir Dave the Knave
will host the rave

Jim has quit
but left some shit

We need a life
said Brian and his wife

There is no god
I must be odd

I am free
M is on TV

Thanks to Katie
and her matie

ahimsa said Ghandiii

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:35:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mel Bourne's post on Lifes Great
Message:
You can read it on The free EX-PREMIE forum

Best of Fora!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:11:31 (GMT)
From: The actual post
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Mel Bourne's post on Lifes Great
Message:
I'm embarrassed to be called a 'premie'...
Message:

…after reading the posts from Mr Nice Guy and Bongo in the Michael Dettmers thread below.

As some here may know, I’ve been involved on the F5 for a couple of years on and off as a “premie” and have been abused and attacked for my “apologist” views by the best (or worst) of them, but I must say that I don’t think the Mr Nice Guy’s syrupy venom or Bongo’s patronising preaching does Maharaji’s cause any justice and I’m sure that many premies who have been following the issues raised by Sue, Abi and Dettmers would probably agree with me.

To take stock, the UNAVOIDABLE allegations are:

1. Pedophile activity by Jagdeo and Maharaji’s apparent reluctance to publicly address and action the situation when he became aware of it (recently or otherwise).

2. The double standards apparent in the so called “X” rating of selected premies as asserted by Dettmers, which introduce an element of “double standards” which could undermine trust in Maharaji.

3. The procuring of premie women for Maharaji’s sexual pleasure in which Dettmers has admitted personal involvement.

4. The chronic long term use of alcohol and other drugs, which could obviously compromise Maharaji’s clarity of mind and impair of his judgement; potentially very dangerous given the demonstrable influence he has in many peoples lives. I’m talking about down to earth brain damage here.

5. The apparent inadvertent killing of an Indian cyclist whilst he was driving and the “cover up” personally witnessed and disclosed by Dettmers.

I think these allegations are very serious and, despite whether you profess love for Maharaji or not, will provide a huge stumbling block for his work, not because Dettmers (or anyone else) has “exposed” them, but because they are caused by Maharaji himself and, rightly or wrongly, the 'real' world has some expectation of moral integrity from it's 'spiritual masters' . I think the gravity of these allegations go far beyond the Bongo/Nice Guy type perception of Maharaji “goofing off”, because, if true, it would appear points 1 & 5 have potential criminal ramifications. This is a fact, not an anti Maharaji rant.

So how do we as premies , “lovers” come to terms with this. The kind of reaction that Nice Guy and Bongo are showing in their posts, while understandable to a point, will not really help the average premie assimilate all this, it will merely polarise opinion and create conflict, and is really only a symptom of denial anyway. Reactionary sites like Charles’ and Pia’s do not really constructively address the facts and assist premies come to terms with them (not that F5 does, of course).

My view is that it is important for people to be sure of their own experience of Knowledge. I also believe that, whether the allegations prove true or false, any genuine feeling of love respect for Maharaji, which is based on the experience of Knowledge, cannot be extinguished. Whether Maharaji is shown to have a seriously flawed character does not necessarily mean that the Knowledge that he has shown is equally flawed or that his sincerity in it’s promotion is questioned, but Maharaji, as a person, is obviously subject to all the human imperfections which can also include a capability to make serious errors of judgement and even, apparently, errant behaviour.

Ultimately, though, we will all have to survive this and stereotyping each other as “ex’s” or “premies” and holding preconceived ideas about each other won't help. In fact, if we're not careful there is a real prospect for an enormous amount of damage to be done to a large number of people if this matter is not managed with sensitivity and genuine concern.

Mel

********************

Just wondering. Would anyone care to respond to Mel? :)

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:55:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Conversation with a 'premie'
Message:
I had a telephone conversation last night with a current 'premie,' somebody I was good friends with when I was a premie myself. It was an interesting, although sad, conversation.

I asked him why he continues to believe in Maharaji and he said he didn't know. He said he didn't know anything, and wasn't in any position to judge what was going on because he was so, I guess, messed up. I asked him who told him that he was messed up. You guessed it, Maharaji did.

I asked if he ever considered the fact that Maharaji both tells you that there is something wrong with you, that you are thirsty, not listening to your heart, listening to your mind, trying to analyze things, and forgetting the purpose of your life and even that you ARE alive, and then provides a solution to those supposed 'problems.' Had he ever thought about it? Does he really think that there is an evil conspiracy in his brain to make him miserable? Who really believes such nonsense?

We talked some more, but this seems to be basically the issue here. Like Levine said in the conclusion to the Rolling Stone article, Maharaji is so incoherent and vacuous in what he says, that it's difficult to point out anything wrong in what he says, because he says almost nothing. But there is one point implied: there is something wrong with people and they need improvement and he can improve them. But Maharaji has a severe conflict of interest in saying that.

And then, of course, when being a premie doesn't really make you happy, you can pretend to be happy, you can blame your mind, and resolve to try harder, and not 'forget.' And you can waste time doing that for the rest of your life.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 14:05:32 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My own conversation with a 'premie'
Message:
Joe,

This is sad, and a little eerie. In the last two months I had an email exchange with a long-time premie friend of mine. He is aware of all the info on this site. He attended the Miami event last Spring. When I asked him to explain to me his position, he couldn't really do it. He said that he cannot possibly judge the Master because he couldn't know what a Master does or should do. He said that he weeps sometimes because of his ignorance.

When I was around this guy in the 70's, he was a perfectly normal human being. But now he can't trust himself and denigrates himself exactly the way that Maharaji denigrates people. I asked him to look at the effect the supposed perfect Knowledge is having on him. It's supposed to be a good thing, but it doesn't really help people grow into themselves at all.

On ELK now there is a premie expression in which a premie talks about his own mind as if it were an abscessed tooth. And of course the way to get rid of this tooth is to go see Rawat at his events. As you say, Joe, Rawat turns people into their own worst enemies!!!

God, this is awful.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 11:17:15 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: My own conversation with a 'premie' OUCH
Message:
God, this is awful - the mind as an abcessed tooth!

The whole thing is based on self-denigration, and as the Goodygoody Girl pointed out, can make one unbelievably needy and broken down.

Ouch.

These last two posts really reminded me of the potential value of this forum. And also reminded me how important it is, for me, that this forum model respect for each other, rather than continuing the verbal abuse of the cult.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:42:21 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Conversation with a 'friend'
Message:
Hi Joe,

Thanks for the post. I'm trying to find some good buddies of mine from the old days. I don't know if they're still with M because I was away from prem circuit for over decade.

This was also good for me to read, because when I read the posts of the premies who post here (flaming and contributing nothing) to the discussion, I think 'This is not what my friends would do'.

At least this person was able to answer to question honestly. And I'm also touched that the 'humanness' and 'friendship' did not have to be compromised.

Very encouraging. Nice posts today! Ah! A new Dawn.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:29:09 (GMT)
From: bill-Jim and Deb would
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: have been correct to blast the guy...nt
Message:
dfhdfh
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 23:49:11 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill-Jim and Deb would
Subject: Sorry, not sure what you meant by that remark
Message:
Please explain
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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 00:33:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Try to understand the victim under the premie.
Message:
;sldfglsd
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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 03:03:15 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I do! Read my post above...
Message:
This whole cult shit is a shock to me. I can only assume that you MUST still be a premie. No exes ever single me out and insult my behaviour (well except in regards to a few recent posts). It's ONLY the premies who want me to try and condescendingly make me feel bad or insane. I have enough integrity and selfconfidence to be unwavered by that tactic.
The reason the exes are extremely supportive of me (read people's post to me) is because they UNDERSTAND what's happening and EXCUSE the process of my healing endevour. They heard my voice before the torrential rains fell and complimented me, frequently. Some of the dearly departed have emailed me to stay in touch.

Remember that unlike the RANTING premies I've allowed myself to grasp the meaning of this and don't want to be assaulted by the premies that are viciosly and aimlessly attacking.

The reason that I really admire Joe's post is that it confirms how I feel about the premie friends that are not here. I feel for their unchallenged belief (if in fact it is unchallenged). I'm searching for some of them now, if they don't want to hear about the info I won't push them. After all, I know and respect them and vice versa. However, I think most of my friends have moved on. M and his dysfunctional circus act is outdated.

My friends all had diligent minds and acknowledged their intellect even during the premie years and many of these people including myself were acquainted with Maharaji. I was a service freak in my day and lived to see his fuckin form. I had lots of darshan (whoopie) outside the programs and so did a lot of my friends. I had conversations with the man and I wasn't intimidated by the faultiness of mind. He acknowledged that and spoke with me accordingly. I rec'd K in '81 and was very wordly compared to the 70's initiates. All my premie friends had rec'd K in the 70's and many of them lived with M at one time or another.
By the way, I don't condone verbial abuse (mine included) from exes nor from current premies. But people who are verbially attacking, insulting, me and other exes deserve what they get.

Under no condition will I reduce myself to a sacrificial lamb just because some prem-flamers aren't ready to handle the truth. Perhaps if you knew my history on this forum you wouldn't be so quick to categorize and LABEL me. You don't know me or how I feel about some of the premies with whom I shared my life. Political correctness is a two way street. Not that I'm an advocate of PC, the truth heals in time, lies and repressed emotions degrades.

I challenge rather than repress. Exes don't have to lie down and get beated. This is not going to express our integrity. Exes communicate with words that have meaning and continuity. Have many honest and considerate posts from premies are here. Not too many.

Trust me from a person who only allowed myself to recently read the actual contents of these pages, it was this very integrity and indominatable fortitude that made me jump in. The contrast was stark. I knew the winning horse and bet on it. It took me only hours to see the stark contrast.

This behaviour was here when I arrived. It didn't hurt me at all. It impressed me. Every premie will see what they need or want to see. The personalities and inflamed posts are NOT the piece-de-resistance. It's those formiddable archives. Personalties are just that!

I trust in that process and apologize for my outbursts. It is of no consequence to the premies that will arrive. I cannot nor will not be singled out and socially controlled by these allegations of yours Bill. You're picking on the wrong girl. I don't you see you getting in the face of every other passioned poster.

Why me?

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 04:36:40 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: it is a matter of timing...luck of the draw,,nt
Message:
dfsdfsdf
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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 01:58:56 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: What does that mean?.............../nt
Message:
sheesh
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:10:37 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Conversation with a 'premie'
Message:
I asked if he ever considered the fact that Maharaji both tells you that there is something wrong with you, that you are thirsty, not listening to your heart, listening to your mind, trying to analyze things, and forgetting the purpose of your life and even that you ARE alive, and then provides a solution to those supposed 'problems.' Had he ever thought about it? Does he really think that there is an evil conspiracy in his brain to make him miserable? Who really believes such nonsense?

Good insights, Joe. If you're troubled and disturbed like I was when I got into it, it's pretty compelling. There's almost no way to prove to yourself what the problem is and very difficult to quantify what helps. Any 'solution' is pretty much a long-shot and anyone who sounds like they know what they're talking about can be convincing. The only thing you know for sure is that you're up shits creek without a paddle.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 03:14:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Goober, the Hegelian master
Message:
I liked Joe's post too, Rick, you ole reprobate.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 17:54:23 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hi Ger! Who was Hegel again? NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 21:34:27 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I fergit, Rick, I think I was stoned when I wrote
Message:
that. You know have it is with us drug crazed nutball exes.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:58:34 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Clear insights joe! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:18:08 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The obvious value of EPO
Message:
I recently heard from a couple who both used to practice knowledge and attend programs but don't do either now. They are exploring other paths and are quite satisfied with that eclectic approach but still hold M&K in high regard as their primary spiritual influence. He is a long time, very involved premie from early '70's. She was not as involved and, while surfing the net to see what was up with M these days, came across EPO. She was intrigued by the contents here and especially Michael Donner's letter to Maharaji. She reported her find to her husband and he read Michael's letter which has stimulated a long conversation about M & K with someone close to me who still practices K. This is just the type of dynamic interaction EPO fosters. The value of EPO and the forum is far greater than we know.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:55:51 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The obvious value of EPO
Message:
i couldn't agree more with you richard! a bit of self control would go a long way towards making this site useful , in my opinion. keeping on focus...not making it a club or incrowd type of thing....not nitpicking each other's ideas...letting sleeping dogs lay...and that kind of stuff.

could you do that, jim, brian, john et al??

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:34:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: EPO vs. the forum
Message:
I think Jim made a good point in his goodbye speech at AG. EPO doesn't need the forum. Only the people who participate in it do. But for any premie on the fence, just the site, itself, should be enough to knock them to the right side of it. Worked for me, especially the part where I found out that other premies were struggling with K, also.

Hanging out with Maharaji and his sycophants, you'd think you were the only one who ever felt disappointed by his 'experience'. God forbid a dour word should ever be said about it. Big, big, no no. It was refreshing to see that somebody had the courage to yell out that the emperor's wearing no clothes.

The only thing I'll miss about Forum 5 is that Brian really did a good job of customizing it with some proprietary software, some of which I think he wrote himself. Also, there's the archives. They will be missed as well.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 05:35:06 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: EPO vs. the forum
Message:
Jerry,

It's the intention that we'll continue to store archives.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:32:01 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The obvious value of EPO
Message:
Yes, I think it is very valuable, too.

I really don't want to tell anyone what they shouldn't be doing. But I have to admit that I have the belief that people who are 'half-in' may be harboring a bit of stuck energy, and that getting more clear on some of the facts may help to free it up, to their benefit. As far as people who are 100% in and committed and say they are enjoying it, I have no interest in influencing them unless they seem to want to discuss it. And I never meet such people anyway any more.

Actually, it would be quite fascinating to meet a dyed-in-the-wool premie.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:42:28 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I agree: The obvious value of EPO
Message:
Richard, only a short while ago I came upon the site and actually read its contents.

Although there is a so-called history to the in-fighting of exes, it was far out-shadowed by the current contents of these pages.

Michael Dettmers post is the one that 'hooked' me because it spoke to the premie in me. I knew his brother personally and of course understood the magnitude of his postion.

As a premie, I was not sheltered by the news of M's pot-smoking, cognac drinking, and business tactics, etc. I took it in stride as M having a 'human' life as well.

Learning about the procurement of female premies for his sexual selfishness blasted me. Why didn't he contract prostitutes. He could afford the best. NO. He had to have devotion IN and OUT of bed. Chinese fire drill to cover up killing a man on a bike. X-rating tales from the crypt. Shit! This was not the 'man' to whom I devoted myself. Excessive drinking was a mild shock. Dubey rituals, the same.

I wish FA, Katie, and Brian adn Jim, would reconsider their blame game amongst exes, it's small potatoes compared to the BIG DECEPTION.

In the words of Sri Michael DonnerJi,

...............'We have bigger fish to fry'...............

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:42:47 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M on TV in the USA
Message:
I have just returned from the US of A - and whilst staying at my friends house, indulged in some channel hopping as they have about eleventy million channels, and being English I have 4 and a half.

and what did I find on Thursday night... 8.pm - 9.30 ELAN VITAL. Ooh I thought.. I'lll watch this.

The interesting thing was how completely exposed M was by his setting.. and what I mean is this..

Channel surfers skim and have low boredom tolerance.

American TV is purposeful and direct. Adverts are clear if not over-stated.

American TV is quick.

M is slow, unclear, and appears deeply unattractive, like some smug presidential motivational speaker with a weight problem.. selling a vague and completely undefined product at a completely undefined cost.

He really shows himself up badly. Also he talked far too much to his fans in the audience, lots of in-jokes about the Master... and he also smugly said that he reserved the right to change his schedule, to tumultuous applause...

Oh dear... it really DOES look like a cult, and I feel that the sattelite thing and the fact that humans can stumble upon him in mid-anecdote without ANY PREPERATION could be his downfall.

Propogation is collapsing. M - you must be seriously arrogant if you feel you are interesting enough as you are. Sorry Pal, but you have been spoiled and very badly advised by sychophants for too long.

Blame them.

It is very clear that M is not interesting to the american people - only to his circle of fans who are even more besotted because they are now feeling blissed out AND defensive.. what a heady mix. Loyalty can do damage. Dont forget that. it can blind and it can Kill.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 23:00:51 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: FYI: Maharaji Video on Dish Tonight.....
Message:
There's a video at 6 p.m. (Pacific time) scheduled on Dish Network. It's on 'BTV,' number 9602; I don't know about the unanimity of the Dish system, but that's where it is on my dish system. Also, on the Guide, it says 'Elan Vital.'

Bon appetit.

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 16:57:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Oy Vey
Message:
Well, I don't have a dish, only one of the many versions of cable, and I haven't seen any listings on cable in the Bay Area. Have you seen any listings on cable? It seemed like in New York, EV was on a cable access channel.

Are you going to watch? Will you stay awake?

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Date: Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 19:28:57 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Piranhas Eat My Brain....
Message:
Hi Joe:

I watched one in its entirety last week, although it took a little doing on my part to make myself sit there. First off, he looked like Chairman Mao (Maoraji?). After I got over that one, I observed his coy cues, smiles and innuendoes and found myself fascinated by the interplay between M and his audience. Maharaji plays them like a world class Stradivarius, evoking happy clapping, laughter, together with a nice range of sighs and knowing chuckles.

As for the content of his speech, we're talking empty calories. Cheez Whiz has more meaning. It's like showing someone the light by talking about the absence of light. M doesn't present, or represent, the light, other than to talk about where and what it is NOT. He blabbed on about how coffee is now trendy, but that the breath is never trendy and that the breath never shows up on 'best of' lists. A fabulous non-sequitur, if I may say so myself. I found most of what he had to say to be fairly negative. He surely is the Master of Negative Space, using absence as proof of presence.

Basically, my overall impression is that M's talks paint premies into an emotional and psychological corner, somehow making them feel that that compression of space and time, that compression of who they really are, and his emphasis on their fatal ignorance, masquerades as an experience of who they really are, when in fact it's really an experience of who they really aren't, and IMO is an experience of smallness, rather than one of spiritual expansion. I know this sounds like a mindfuck, but promoting self-denigration, rigidity and denial under the rubric of spirituality and the 'joy of having a Master' is just that.

I couldn't believe I spent ten years doing that.

Onto my OT stuff: Last week you posted about summer reading. I just picked up a book yesterday which made me think of you. It just came out in paperback, so you may already have read it when it first came out. It's called 'The Informant' by Kurt Eichenwald, and is about the inside workings of the corporate world that the public never sees...secret codes, industrial espionage, covert meetings etc. Another one I'm reading is called 'A Massive Swelling: Celebrity Re-examined As A Grotesque Crippling Disease,' by Cintra Wilson. It's pretty damn funny and out there (good summer reading). And I just bought a history book by Bernard DeVoto called 'The Year of Decision: 1846,' the first in an historical trilogy by him. I'm a fiction freak, but those are the non-fiction books on my list.

Ciao for now.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:04:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I want my, I want my, I want my MTV....
Message:
Travelin' the planet
Tellin' folks about God
Tellin' us that God is right inside of us
Dressed in Armani
Flying Gulfstream airplanes
Don't you even think about no stinkin' bus

Gotta move those big golden toilets
Custom paper, that's special fancy t-peeeeeee
That's the ticket, that's the way he does it
Money's a-comin', he shows God for free....

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 23:04:18 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Money for nothing, and chicks for free...nt
Message:
also Dire Straits...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:29:15 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Respects to Dire Straits (I think) (nt)
Message:
ohyeah
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:02:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: M on TV in the USA--where were you n what channel?
Message:
someone else posted the other night that they had come upon one of the new cable commercials or infomercials while surfing on cable at someone's house in upstate new york, i think, somewhere in new york state, at any rate. i think they said they thought they were on channel 110 when they found it.

I'm curious as to what cable provider or network channel you saw it on. i don't know how far up the channels run on tv now. dishnet goes up to 500 i think. i think the visions broadcasts of him on sundays run on their channel 105 or 105, so I'm curious as to what channel and what service you were watching this on.

do you remember? did you make a note of it at all?

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:40:36 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: It was in NYC, regular cable and
Message:
it was channel 108, 109 or 110. sorry I can't remember the exact one. Paul
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:51:51 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Paul, can we talk about 'how to contactt station'
Message:
I'd like this topic to be a category in itself. People write or call stations and comment on programs all the time.

Would you be willing to find out 'Who' to write to for us, I cannot afford the long-distance expense right now to do it myself. maybe a website with an online feedback is available for the exes to tell them what we KNOW about M and K.

If enough of us write or email 'from around the world' it will get someone's attention and hopefully a media allie.

Cheers :}

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 18:38:34 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Although no longer in NYC, I'll see what I can
Message:
find out.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:20:58 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: no idea jan.. satellite and it was B something
Message:
its wasnt of interest to me Jan. Sorry
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:05:25 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I saw it......It's 'BTV'......nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:41:03 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Gee, did M come on before or after Gangaji?
Message:
M sounds desperate! Perhaps there's a cash flow problem? Trying to drum up some new victims?
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:36:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Very interesting but what to do now?
Message:
According to my poll, 63% of people want the main ex-premie forum kept at ex-premie.org. This has been the figure since the poll began which means that it's likely a fair representation of what the majority think.

This figure has to be taken into account when trying to figure out a way out of the mess things are in.

So far, I have pushed for a seperate forum to the ex-premie.org site because that's what I felt was the solution. However, I may be wrong and perhaps there's another solution.

I'm not seeking to grasp power but I'm keen that all the conflicts are resolved. I see a crossroads and I'm unsure which way to go. If I shut up and go away, maybe the situation will resolve itself; or I can jump in and take over.

There has been very little feedback or reaction to my idea of a new forum or how best to solve this situation and stop the bickering which in my mind, is pointless. What to do? Please give your constructive ideas. Thank you.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:33:34 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Why not use your 'AG' forum, Dave?
Message:
Just trying to be helpful here, ya know.. ;o)
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:43:09 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Surely YOU of all people should not want that
Message:
All these years you have complained about anything goes
abuse you suffered.
(you DID respond in kind more than a couple times:)

An adult forum that is responsible is just down your alley

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:04:07 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave, help us get back on track
Message:
I want EPO FV to stay as it is. As a very recent ex-er I can tell you that this site means a lot to me.

We have to have damage control so things don't get out of hand. I think the FA has to have and exercise discretion in these matters so that dirty laundry doesn't take over.

Politics on FV is everyone's concern. I'm not willing to let a little 'pissing contest' spoil this.

EPO is a formiddable and formiddable archive. The front page should PERSUADE non-exes to go to the other sites for awhile.
The page could REQUEST that that they introduce themself (and perhaps use a handle)first efore launching into commentary and told why we SUGGEST that.

If exes get too uncivil and seek to lynch a new person who makes an honest attempt to communicate about their experience, perhaps FA or other exes could intervene about FV principles.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 01:24:54 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Consider it done
Message:
No need to worry, this train is NOT going off the rails, Deborah. Your points have been taken and digested.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:54:18 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Consider it done
Message:
Umm,,er,, a bottle of Rolaids, on me.

Thanx for your social sensibilities.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:03:49 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The forum will have to move
Message:
I've read some of the responses to Sir Dave's post and I see that some people don't understand that what was being argued here wasn't just forum policy but also the site policy which allowed the forum to be hosted here in the first place.

It's become clear in all this that moving the forum onto this site was a mistake. It brings the protection of the site into conflict with forum users' expressed rights to have a say in forum policy.

I spoke with the legal owner of this website on the phone the other night and he and I are in agreement that moving the forum off the site is best for the site and the forum in the longrun.

Fights that spill out of the forum (as this one did) affect the host. In this case that drags the webmaster into the fray.

Wherever the forum is located, the forum policy will not overrule the terms of use that the forum server puts on hosting the forum. The people understand that as a given elsewhere, but have problems applying the same principle when the host is EPO.

It isn't fair to other forum users that I have a right to post my own opinion as a person and also have a right to control the discussion as the webmaster of the site hosting the forum. It's also not fair that people don't have a say in who the webmaster is when that person has a say in what they can post on this forum. This inherent unfairness is just going to cause more problems down the road.

The forum must move off of the site. The fights that erupt here aren't at all connected with putting content on the site and making certain that the links work, but they do involve the site legally in whatever goes on here.

I hope you will continue discussing where the forum will move, forum policy, who will be the FA, who will register the forum in their name, etc.

I'll be closing Forum 5 at the end of July, and there needs to be a new forum in place before then.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 14:02:52 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Okay, but that sucks!!!!!!
Message:
I wish the forum could stay here.
I hate the software with AG.
Are you sure this is the only alternative?

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:04:42 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Brian and everyone here
Subject: r.e. forum[s],synergy, + stop n smell da roses...
Message:
For anyone who might care:

1) I personally would prefer keeping a central forum somehow associated with epo and with civil guidelines and openness

2) + attractively displayed links with any other ex-premie sites and forums that want to network. [in any case]

Brian, please give folks through August if you insist on shutting down -- otherwise, it might affect a lot of people harshly, if there are some glitches, delays -- prefer a smooth process.

I think almost every conscientious ex who reads/posts regularly would appreciate a constructive, cooperative spirit from everybody. We might wish to consider: what is good for the group overall, and what protects the rights and safety of each individual, what ensures the integrity of the forum's structure, management, operations and procedures, and what type of forum environment fosters mutual respect, intelligent and courteous debate, information, education, personal growth, networking, and support?

I can understand your [and others'] present frustration. However, why not wait a few days until everybody has had some time to reflect calmly and generate and develop some good ideas here -- and let's have some constructive input, folks, for healthy improvement + change, share genuine concerns/issues + possible solutions.

You know, Brian, right now in many places today where exes live the sun will shine, flowers will smile, and birds will sing their melodies. There's nothing quite like lying back on some soft grass or in a hammock for a few minutes, looking up at the clouds, or some trees, or a starry sky -- and feeling the often neglected joy of simply being in such a wondrous space. Yesterday, I walked in a garden filled with the ambrosia of lavender, orchids, roses and delphiniums. How lovingly delicate and intricate orchids are! Just to walk through a quiet forest, and sit and gaze from a mountain peak, stroll on a beach and listen to the ebb and flow of the sea tides, or hike on a green hilly trail to some misty cool waterfalls, or walk through a breezy tall meadow of rustling reeds and wildflowers.

I have a good younger friend who is slowly dying from lymph cancer -- our relative time is also fleeting, and life is most precious to each being. So, if there is even a brief moment to enjoy and feel good about life, then let that moment be now... For, we all require some contentment and self-validation -- lacking that, it is easy for any of us to get so caught up in the messes that people create through their own zeal, stubborness or miscommunications and misperceptions, with naturally resulting hurt feelings. No, we are not cold images of stone; we have warm lifeblood, and our own respective thoughts, feelings, and needs. Honor each other.

Hang loose, Brian!

best wishes
and

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:35:46 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Hey, Such, I hear you
Message:
You wrote:
You know, Brian, right now in many places today where exes live the sun will shine, flowers will smile, and birds will sing their melodies. There's nothing quite like lying back on some soft grass or in a hammock for a few minutes, looking up at the clouds, or some trees, or a starry sky -- and feeling the often neglected joy of simply being in such a wondrous space. Yesterday, I walked in a garden filled with the ambrosia of
lavender, orchids, roses and delphiniums. How lovingly delicate and intricate orchids are! Just to walk through a quiet forest, and sit and gaze from a mountain peak, stroll on a beach and listen to the ebb and flow of the sea tides, or hike on a green hilly trail to some misty cool waterfalls, or walk through a breezy tall meadow of rustling reeds and wildflowers.

I agree. The problem that Brian and I have had is that we are both people who take things very seriously. I KNOW we could change and not be bothered by what goes on on this forum, but frankly, I'd rather simplify my own life now, and work on changing the 'too serious' part as it comes.

I read a lot of posts on here where people wrote 'I just came back from vacation and found all this had happened on the forum'. I ENVY all of you who were able to write that. You may rightly accuse me of whining when I say this, but we have had two weekends and an intervening week filled with nothing much besides the controversy on the forum. Lots of phone calls, e-mails, heartache, tough decisions, etc. My family came down for the fourth of July, and we did get to go to the fireworks, but that's about it. The fact is that neither of us wants to have to think about the forum anymore. We want to be able to post here (wherever y'all decide it should go) as ourselves, without being seen (rightly or wrongly) as 'authority figures'. We want to be able to go away for a week without having to worry about what's going on here. Those orchids and delphiniums sound good to me (although you MUST live in the Pacific NW to be able to see them in a garden this time of year.)

You wrote:
I have a good younger friend who is slowly dying from lymph cancer -- our relative time is also fleeting, and life is most moment to enjoy and feel good about life, then let that moment be now... For, we all require some contentment and get so caught up in the messes that people create through their own zeal, stubborness or miscommunications and misperceptions, with naturally resulting hurt feelings. No, we are not cold images of stone; we have warm lifeblood, and our own respective thoughts, feelings, and needs. Honor each other.

My brother-in-law died suddenly at age 46 in March. He had a massive stroke, and never recovered consciousness. Brian and I were there with my sister and my nephew when they turned off the life support. So I am sure we would both agree with you that life is fleeting, and that we need to make the most of it.

For three and a half years, Brian and I have been committed to this site. We have gotten a lot out of it, but it has taken a lot out of us too. I know there are many other ex-premies out there who could do the same job we have done, and I'm guessing they could get a lot out of it too. But, as you say, life is going on all around us, and there are things we have missed as a result of the time we have put into the site and forum. I don't regret that time, but I also need to put time into those things I have neglected as a result of it.

Take care,
Katie


I hear you here, as well.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:19:51 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: such
Subject: r.e. forum[s],synergy, + stop n smell da roses...
Message:
Yes,, hang loose

Both Brian and Katie , and Jim , are wanted here
Smell the roses, let it pass , shake hands.

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 23:57:18 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: r.e. forum[s],synergy, + stop n smell da roses...
Message:
Wow, thanks Such. I've posted an excert (with a link to your piece) at The free EX-PREMIE forum
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:56:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I said this below, but....
Message:
Is there a way just to provide a LINK to a FORUM from the website (and vice versa), but that otherwise the FORUM would ostensibly be the same? I mean is this a big deal?
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:15:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I said this below, but....
Message:
The issue is the feasability of porting Brian's software without Brian. Brian reckons it's not feasible, and having some IT experience, I respect his view. So the new forum will look different.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:40:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: JHB
Subject: John, are you going to do this?
Message:
I'm afraid I don't have any IT skills. I am a dumb consultant, and rely on a large IS department in my firm to take care of everything. They are wonderful, and it's heaven.

But I would be willing to donate $$ if you need it. That's the least I can do.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:45:39 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: John, are you going to do this?
Message:
I've just reread my post and I can see it could sound like I'm going to write some forum software. No, the idea is to find something out there better than Hotboards or Paradise.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 18:37:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Very interesting but what to do now? Nothing.
Message:
FV will still continue to provide a place for new expremies to deconstruct, debrief and detoxify. AG/FEF will revert to grinning heads and duck-hunting. There is no demand for a forum separate from EPO. The market has spoken. So my offer to help you start F6 is futile especially since Jim has now retired. My battle was mostly about free speech rights so now I'm getting out of expremie politics and will just continue to be a Lone Ranger.

Here's an interesting post from Lifes Great by MW:

Jim and PatC retire -Hah!

Charles Glasser did a fine job. He has succeeded in shutting up the two biggest windbags and driven the expremiies into two camps. Jim has posted on the socalled Free Expremie Forum that he has left for good and won't be telling his lies about M any more. Patc has said he will not post on F5 and no one will read his rubbish on the free ex forum anyway - just another hasbeen sad case. My guess is he just rebels against all authority and now hes rebelled against Katie and Brian who have handled the Charles situation very well. Good riddance to them boith

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:42:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Prediction: Short retirement for Jim.....
Message:
Wanna wager?
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:32:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Better have a consequence system up by then..nt
Message:
sdfsd
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:25:01 (GMT)
From: JHB (Forum Admin)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: To those who voted for the forum to stay here
Message:
I don't think that's possible.

I am very aware of the stress this situation caused Brian and Katie and it is simply not acceptable. For the webmaster to be responsible for content on this site, and yet have no power over that content is also not acceptable. Brian has never appled pressure on how I run this forum, but, as others have correctly surmised, I have to take into account all factors when making decisions, and one of those factors, is how this forum is affecting the webmaster.

I am not willing to continue with this situation, and I don't believe Brian is either.

I want those 67% to consider why you voted the way you did. Was it because you like the design of this forum? If so, I think the issue I raised above is a little more important. I hope you'll think so as well when you think about it a little more. Was it because this forum has some special status? Well, a new forum can have the same status. We can link to it in the same way as this forum is, and archives can be stored on EPO. Or was there some other reason? If so, please let us know.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:53:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB (Forum Admin)
Subject: Where will it go?
Message:
Excuse me if I haven't followed this discussion too closely, but where would the Forum end up, if not part of the website?

I agree that it should remain connected, and I don't quite understand why that's impossible, but if it does move, what does that mean?

Does it just mean there is a LINK to the FORUM from the website, and otherwise everything remains the same?

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:11:37 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Where will it go?
Message:
Somewhere else:-) The main impact on posters will be that it doesn't look like Brian's forum software is portable, so Forum6 will use some other software. Hotboards is not favourite, but at least people are getting used to it. If you are aware of any reliable forums available out there, then let us know:-)

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:23:38 (GMT)
From: bill-This post by Deb
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: is completely unacceptable.
Message:
>>Don't revise history for me DICK, you have condoned sexual abuse and your reputation on the line. Go Home, get out of here, you're not a trusty-worthy person.

>>Have you ever been sexually abused? If not, the how do you know how you'd react to it? If you have been sexually abused, who are you to say how someone else should react to it?

>>If it was someone other than a GURU M CULT figure--would you have said the same thing?

>>And your also in a mind-fucking cult. You're soul's being raped as you read this. However, that's the least of your problems.

>>Truly a very UGLY person. And truly, a very Little, little, little, little insignificant lifeform.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:34:54 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: bill-This post by Deb
Subject: is completely unacceptable.
Message:
No it is not unacceptable
When you are leaving the cult , and you start to understand
what , being in this cult,,has done to you.
it is very acceptable to make post like this. we should
understand this , anger is a part of leaving.

Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:08:09 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: Thanks for your support ulf!
Message:
I'll post my response to bill-
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:27:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: this is one of many and she is proud of this.
Message:
There are ways to deal with anger and abuseing the person just
behind you in the exit line in the cult is NOT acceptable.

By the way ULF, your posts are interesting.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 00:16:51 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: This was in response to RICHARD II's horrid post
Message:
Are you Richard II, if not listen up anyways

Richard was told to change his name because we had a Richard. I said we could call him DICK because of the revolting insensitive lcdicrous post he left to Abi.

He insulted her, he accused her and her astute assistant Michael Dettmers of possibly lying. He, an unknown, acctually tried to dictate 'how she should handle it'

When Abi tried to communicate to him, he (in the little manhood manner he's accustomed to) ignored her posts.

She posted again. Richard II posted to other people WHILE she pleaded (go back and read thread) to get her point across.

Richard II tried to bring this up with me, Abi posted again under the new thread. DICK again ignores her post.

Anybody who would undervalue Abi's situation and child molestation and tell them to basically get over it has UGLY and extremely dubious 'tolerance' for sexual abuse, especially children.

Now, do I make myself clear, Richard II

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:29:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, personally I agree with you
Message:
But if I were to delete all posts containing profanity, I would be very busy, and would probably initiative even more profane posts.

BTW, if I did want to delete it, how would I find it from the info you gave?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:39:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Deleting is not my goal.
Message:
I think Deborah is quite capable of adjusting.
Jim will not without repeated consequences.
And others come here and it is a good time to
tighten the quality restrictions.
Fine with me that the forum move, but what got me
going was the threat of this moving into Sir Davids
-anything goes- hands.

All the fury just made it clear to me that I have really had it with the swearing and venomous attacks some people think are
thier right to engage in.

The time IS ripe for that kind to change, and seeing you taking anything goes arguments from (frankly) posters I like,
I had to come down on the side of consequences.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:58:11 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Where will it go?
Message:
Joe, it will just be like Forum I, and Forum II, and Forum IV. Hope that helps.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:43:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Katie
Subject: Cum Links?
Message:
I mean will the website link to the Forum and the Forum link to the website?

If so, then thanks. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but obviously somebody has to make it happen. I am no help in the technical department, but I will donate $$ if it's needed.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:48:06 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You got it, Joe
Message:
Let's find the platform, and then we'll worry about the Lati (plural for Lats, the Latvia currency:-))

Links will be there.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:17:33 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: JHB (Forum Admin)
Subject: Be Here Now
Message:
I would have voted to keep the forum here, but apparently I was out of the room when the vote was taken.

Why keep it here? Because this is such a visible 'place' and is thus encountered by many many people to whom this ongoing dialogue has meaning and worth.

I have always been disgusted by the brawling and bickering that takes place here, including the recent brouhaha involving Jim. It reminds me too much of a high school where I used to teach. Conversations beginning 'He said she said...' would soon escalate into fights.

On this site, I find myself wishing they would think about the purpose of Forum V rather than engaging in vituperative wordslinging just cuz they feel like it. I've also always supported CENSORSHIP on the part of the webmaster if those folks can't exert a little self-control. So sue me.

As far as the legal issues and cyberlogistics brought up in support of the move...well, those are areas in which I am frankly stupid. I don't get it. So, if you gotta move, so be it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:38:25 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Very interesting but what to do now?
Message:
fyi i didn't vote but would have voted to stay on this forum if and when they allow folks back...if not then...i guess i would switch...so sad as most lurker as they have been referred to, i think come to this site. and afterall...seems that is what we (i have at least) been about.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:35:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Very interesting but what to do now?
Message:
This can be easily solved by leaving this page here and having a transfer script to the new page. Haven't you seen the message 'This Page has Moved, Please wait and you will be Taken There'?
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:29:26 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Question
Message:
I wonder if some of the voters were premies trying to keep the house divided.

Is there a way to check that Sir Dave?

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:53:16 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Leave it alone for awhile.
Message:
Let the dust settle.

Your forum is not quite like this one. It serves a purpose as does the somewhat regulated one here.

Why are you so anxious to take over?

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 13:01:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Leave it alone for awhile.
Message:
It isn't good to have ex-premies split like this. It's bad for business and means the forum is less potent. That's why I have felt a sense of urgency although I think I'm in a minority.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 13:19:58 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I say give it some time.
Message:
People are going to eventually forgive each other.
Yes, I hope Jim and Katie will make some peace. I know they will. But Jim is going to have to crawl a little, maybe, I hope he will consider that. At least I hope he will apologize to Katie. I have always thought of Jim as BRUTAL but not cruel.
As for those that left, I think they will be back and just need a little breather.
I didn't entirely agree with the FA's decision to ban Jim, however I could see why he did just that.
I sorely do not want to see the forum moved or unmonitored for many reasons. If anyone should be banned it should be Bazza for stealing e-mail.
I think this forum and web site are very powerful tools for undoing M's cult doctrine and to change the site location or how it is monitored would be a step backwards. Let's give the forum a chance and see how it evolves from this most poignant event. The forum may end up better than ever because of this!

I think it can be beneficial if premies do come here and see this turmoil and realize that hey, these people are actually talking to each other! Now is that bad for business?

Please give the issue a little rest. Not time to read the will yet!

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:59:41 (GMT)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Very interesting but what to do now?
Message:
My vote is to leave the forum here. Make another one if you like - there are already a number of alternatives that are , if you like, more or less experiments in freedom of speech.

The fight between the forum administrators and Jim or whoever, is hopefully a relatively minor hiccup. I have myself on occasion wondered whether EPO should be more 'democratically' run by ex-premies as the title suggests. My understanding is that it is pretty much run by Brian, Katie, JM (and their FA's) as they want -that may not be exactly how I would do it but that doesn't bother me now in the least.

People who are very offended by the way it is run need to realise that there is always the alternative of setting up another website - there's no special cachet in the domain name 'ex-premie.org' - those who want to do this could easily call it something else. The sky's the limit.

The fact remains that this forum is here and has established, in it's lifetime, a reasonably high-profile reputation. Some would say it has earned considerable ill-repute, if not for it's salacious reports about Maharaji, then for it's in-fighting and hot-headed exchanges. That infamy is well-earned and counts for a lot in my opinion!

Personally I would like to see those more regular contributors, who are now boycotting the site because of their objections over this matter, bite the bullet and return if they still have something to say.

I am not sure exactly what Jim has done to break the rules but I would, of course, like to see him return - maybe with some agreement on the rules of behaviour.

There has been some comment on the 'anti-authority' dynamic that is playing out here. I tend to agree that ex-premies generally are very hyper-sensitive to any thing that whiffs of authority, especially given our former brush with the Great Authority, and now are naturally keen that any entity that we are involved with is as uncontrolling as possible.

It may be time to grow up a bit here and just accept that Brian, Katie et al are doing their best and that it's OK that they feel the need to keep control of the site. They are often accused of being control freaks etc. I think this is usually a rather knee-jerk reaction from impassioned exes who , in their exitement about forming a kind of anarchic organisation opposed to M, are not appreciating the practicalities and inevitable issues of control that setting up a website and forum requires.

Whilst Brian and Katie find themselves attacked for the way they run this -I think that it is essential that the exes appreciate what they are up against and give them some appreciation.

I say all this as one who has personally had misunderstandings with Brian - where I was offended that he misinterpreted my intentions and seemed to be paranoid that his control was threatened etc.

Having had plenty of time to consider this I take his point that if one doen't like this place you can go do your own thing - there is nothing stopping you. I quickly realised that I don't have the time and it is by no means a great priority for me to create a website like this, so why should I expect him to dig my groovy ideas for his site?

In short, I realised that I have had a bit of a problem with controllers generally. Trouble is - in this forum
you get a taste of freedom expressing yourself freely and then you get carried awaywith the apparent new freedom and forget who owns the joint and start wanting to make changes to the ground-rules! So my suggestion to those who are getting loud-mouthed and uncivil is: Don't bother. Relax. We're all human and do things differently.

I confess I do feel some sympathy for Katie who doesn't seem to be so inured to taking flak as her apparently thicker-skinned other half. I hope they realise that despite some disagreements, I generally support their efforts and accept that they run their site as they wish.

I think this forum is a bit of an established classic now and is a good stage for people to say their bit and be heard.

The forum's established infamy offers assurance that you will be heard if you post here!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 12:00:41 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Patrick, thanks very much
Message:
I'm really impressed by your honesty in this post. Much appreciated.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:26:27 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: GREAT POST Patrick and you ...
Message:
..add your voice to several others that are saying to just let the dust settle and chill out a bit. Also agree with Joe that this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot. A friend once passed on some advice from his father: If you see a pile of dog doo and take a stick and start playing with it, pretty soon it's going to be everywhere.

But that's general advice. Your points are well-expressed and well-taken. I told my husband this morning that I felt that people on this forum, at times, project some of their anger against Maharaji onto others, and, conversely, also project some of the anger from other areas of their lives onto Maharaji. We are very complex creatures, and when things get too black-and-white, that's usually a red flag for me.

I for one, often need to look at what I'm putting out, rather than focus on the object of my hate/love/indifference etc.

--love, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 14:31:07 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Eloquent and sensible Patrick W
Message:
I don't seem to have the energy or brainpower to muster up a post of my own on this topic but I cheer your well thought out essay. Tincture of time plus a wee bit o' humility / humanity goes a long way. My only hope is that this will eventually make the forum voice stronger and louder.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:39:32 (GMT)
From: bill-This is not anything
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: goes. There are consequences here.
Message:
The responsibilities here demand that out of bounds behaviours
be consequenced.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:43:52 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill Burke should be banned !!!.
Message:
The responsibilities here demand that out of bounds behaviours
be consequenced.

Bill, you have just committed the dastardly crime of turning a noun into a verb. I demand a retraction this minute!

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:20:24 (GMT)
From: bill-egad, it that one of
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: the dastardly deeds? Time out time I guess!..nt
Message:
dfgsdf
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:46:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: bill-This is not anything
Subject: Where is HERE?
Message:
I suggested moving the forum to another ''here'' where it wouldn't affect ex-premie.org.

''Here'' is just on a server somewhere in America. It's not even the same server that ex-premie.org is on but the domain name is the same. If the forum was with another domain name and yes, on another server somewhere in America or even Timbucktoo, nothing would appear to have changed except the URL would be different. Ex-premie.org's ass would be covered though.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:18:35 (GMT)
From: bill-you being FA and
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: having this be anything goes is not a solution..nt
Message:
sdfgsf
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:57:05 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: After the Tornado: Picking up the pieces
Message:
I agree that the bickering(and that's what it is)is pointless. I have no interest in who's right or wrong. When I found EPO and read the 'stuff' contained there, it raised many issues within me. My Mr. Mind had been wondering but I was well trained to suppress these doubts. Then, I migrated to the Forum and have gone through many changes since.

There is a need for a forum because it's a dynamic, living thing. As to where it should be located, I think for convenience sake, it should stay with EPO if at all possible. While I don't like the bickering, I appreciate the fact that like in real life it does happen. This is in stark contrast to EV who seems to need to project the image of dignity. Other than mutual respect for legal consequences, a free for all style would make administration rather routine.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 21:32:15 (GMT)
From: bill-free for all- is
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: irresponsible. Jim wont listen about abuse....nt
Message:
sadffasdf
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 09:44:12 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: whats the problem ? could someone fill me in ?
Message:
I've been away and seem to have missed something.

loafie

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:50:55 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: What really got Jim banned.
Message:
He completely tormented Katie with his incessant demands that she post the e-mail Brian wrote to the asshole Glasser. It was bad. I've never seen Jim in quite this form. It was hateful.

Anyway, Katie got seriously hurt, as I would of, and Jim was banned for flaming as well.

Lot's of people are taking a time out. Already some who said they were gone forever are already back.

I wish everyone would give this time to heal before deciding to take the forum to anything goes. That would be a mistake.

It's gonna take awhile.

I came back from vacation to this as well. Time never stands still in cyber space now does it? Is there time in cyber space? Just kidding.

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:49:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: down below and in the inactive, if you read
Message:
everything, there will emerge a saga that took place here in the days just past.
it seems to begin with bazza acting as FA at a tme when a new and nasty poster appeared out of the premie camp, here. bazza outed the fellow to be one charles Glasser, Jr, and put up his place of employment as a junior lawyer in nyc with some big firm of 500 emplyees. Bazza's doing this resulted in a bunch of people grabbing glasser's info off the board while it was up there before the reg FA found it and wiped it.but the cat was out of the bag. people who had his email and his place of business and his identity used it in various ways.
Glasser proceeded to put up a website of his own, illegally taking posts by ex's from here and the Journeys, and using them to make ex's out to be insane, mentally ill, drug addicted losers looking to blame MJ going back 30 years, for their own supposed loser lives.
aside from the fact that glasser's HTML is an unmitigated disaster and his pages parse halfway off the screen, or garble and overlap text, rendered unreadable,--the people who grabbed his info when it was up used it to do netsearches on the guy and posted what they found, here.
several who had captured his email addresses used them to contact him.
Deb wrote him once, about his using her loud and profane venting of her hate. he did't respong, shewrote again. Glasser tried to use this to claim she was netstalking him. plainly a bluff and naoises only.

Then Jim Heller wrote to Glasser, penning him a mocking note, making fun of Glasser's trying to puff himself up and present himself as if he were bigger than he is, having a real office an everything[sic] just like a real lawyer.

Glasser's reaction ws to write to webmaster Brian and inquire whether Heller represent/ed/s EPO and counsels 'us' as our attorney.
All in all, an expected question, from one attorney receiving correspondence at his workplace from another, when the two are on opposing sides.

Brian responded to Glasser that no, Jim speaks for no one but himself. Brian could have curbed himself and said no more than that, but he allowed himself to convey more to Glasser than was perhaps called for, expressing to him that Brian personally viewed Jim as various unflattering things.

This piece of private mail between Brian and Glasser was obtained from the FA mailbox by Bazza with his still valid password, and put in Jim's hands. Jim proceeded to confront Brian and Katie with efforts to get them to reveal its contents here on the forum, wording his demands to imply that it contained things damning about all ex's, not just Jim, and that we had a right to know what Brian told Glasser. Katie had not seen Brian's letter out, so she truthfully could not tell JIm. But it became clear by his wording that JIm already had the letter in his possession and was baiting someone to make it public. All of the letters finally came out in postings and a great bloodbath ensued.
Ex's felt that Brian had consorted with the enemy--Glasser--even aided and abetted him/them, by his comments re Jim as well as his giving glasser his assurance that forum policy and EPO policy had been violated by the publicly posting of Glasser's identity, workplace and email, and that Brian would cooperate fully should Glasser decide to pursue legal recourse for damage done him as a result.

So A rift opened over Brian as webmaster--his loyalty to ex's, his style in communicating with Glasser, his attitude about JIm, and his overall authoritarian exercise of his role as webmaster of EPO and the forum.

Another rift opened over Jim Heller and his obtaining an email not meant for his eyes, and procured by means not intended. Heller indulged himself in some pretty ugly confrontation here with Katie, then with Brian, and first Katie and then Brian spoke of walking off their jobs and letting EPO go on without them. They were each understandably insulted and offended at being treated as such, in return for all the work they have done, and do, to make this place a reality for thousands of readers. Who would stay and take that kind of shit?

The FA decided to out himself in order to explain the action he took when Heller's having the email became clear, and heller's further insulting of Katie and then Brian: the FA banned JIm from forum5.
Yet a new rift then opened up over this development.

Pat Conlon and Deborah, nigel, and others boycotted F5 and walked out, regrouping at AG, saying they refused to hang out at such a censored and overcontrolled place, where you couldnt even trust your own webmaster not to sell you out to the enemy. Jim was free to post over there, so he did.

Meanwhile, things here became emptier, uncertain and suspended. Sir Dave has renamed AG for the guys who are now using over there as their gathering place. They asked him to rename it 'the free Ex-premie forum' of late, which he has.
He has also colunteered to take over and run here the same way. he has been running a ppoll this week as to what people want, and the poll seems to indicate that by a margin of 70 to 40, people want the forum to stay part of EPO, here.
the crowd over at AG feel that the forum ought not be connected to EPO because it leads to scenarios like this, where the site has too much to lose if the forum is a free for all, and they protest coddling anonymous premie flamers and trolls while selling out ex's like Jim Heller to premies like Charles Glasser, for the asking.

that's as much as i have been able to distill as of today. that brings you up to the moment, but read the history as it ufolded, below and in the inactive. and over on the former AG, now TFEPF

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:40:41 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: A correction, and one important omission
Message:
3 months before Bazza outed Charles, he posted an anonymous reply to a premie calling himself NotSoNiceGuy, who had posted a rather unpleasant, anti-ex, post. In his anonymous post, Bazza revealed that he knew the premie worked for a Law Company. Bazza knew this because of his FA access to IP addresses. Throughout this incident, I was convinced, and still am, that Bazza was not being malicious, but the problem arose that premies started talking about it being dangerous to post on Forum5 as you may be reported to your employers. A reasonable fear, and one that I feel very strongly needed to be allayed. This could only be done by publicly admitting it happened, and trying to ensure all readers that it wouldn't happen again.

The error in your otherwise excellent summary is that Bazza himself deleted his post outing Charles, not me. In fact I never saw it on the forum (I was given a copy later).

Forum Admin (JHB)

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 22:31:31 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: I saw that thread before it dissapeared
Message:
sfdhsdf
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:04:31 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Ridiculious Janet
Message:
How can you have a ratio of 70-40%.

It's 63-37% the last time I looked.

And nobody asked me to rename the AG forum, I did it all by myself from my own idea.

By the way, don't you write fast.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:10:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Ridicul[i]ous? Janet-
Message:
you typo'd --so did I. i don't preview my posts anymore since the html screws them up. the typo is corrected over on AG
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 10:39:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Yes, here's a brief summary
Message:
Very briefly; Jim Heller was blocked and banned from this forum and a load of people left and said they'd not post here again because of it.

I think the whole affair has been caused by mishandled communication or rather lack of it. The reason given for Jim being banned was to protect the ex-premie.org site and domain and that is why I've suggested the forum could be hosted away from ex-premie.org.

If Jim had just been banned and a few people complained then it wouldn't have been so serious but the people who left were the big hitters. Brian and the FAs words only inflamed the situation and LA-ex for example told them to stick their forum up their ass.

People left extremely angry about the way the situation was handled. This is not good. There were complaints that the FA had not done a good job overall and has been too heavy handed. I certainly think there could have been more and better communication.

That's why I put forward the suggestion of moving the forum off this site where it would be independent of ex-premie.org and would never pose a legal threat to it. I also suggested a free-for-all forum where deletion of posts and blocking would be a rarity and not a commonplace occurance.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:29:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Appendix
Message:
Loaf

A boofhead lawyer by the name of Charles the unmentionable put a website on the net, tell us to go and stick it up our nose. Some of us did not like it so we told him to stick it up his rectum. Jim included. Bazza in his excitement got hold of the lawyer that can't be named details from the server log and posted it. The Headmaster FA and Brian told Bazza to get fucked, which he did. Meanwhile Jim got hold of a top secret letter that Brian sent to the lawyer that can't be named. Brian told the lawyer that can't be named that some posters on this form are dick heads. them dicheads did not like to be called dick heads so they told Brian et al to stick it. Brian did not like to be told to stick it, so he told the people that were discribed as dickheads to stick it instead. This and that happened and the shit hit the fan. After the dust setteled Jim was banned. Others decided that they are not gonna take it without having their civil rights taken into consideration so they told Brian et al to shove it. The exes split into two groups. One is here and the others are at AG. Sir Dave been negotiating removing f5 from epo as a seperate entity, this is where you came in.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 23:40:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: And some are at both Forums
Message:
Why not have it all?

--peez, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:34:51 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: thanx salaam , janet and Dave...
Message:
wow. Thankyou all for your summaries.. its hard to know what to say.. it seems to me in my calm holidayed state to be 'a tale told by an idiot'...as Shakespeare put it... 'full of sound and fury but signifying nothing'.

It is rather odd coming back at a time like this.. when I feel detatched from the squabble. I hope the dust will settle in time.

Cant we just pretend that the people that arent here are on holiday.. and that they will all come back when they have calmed down. Jim will be missed fpor a while, but ho hum...he'll be back I am sure. I dont want to get involved with factions, I just want to come here and work through some stuff to do with my life and our shared experience and perceptions of M and K.

Love from a rather deliberately naive Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Jul 12, 2001 at 01:12:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: This way folks!
Message:
Cast from the promised land of Forum V by proprietorial edict, the terrified ex-prems has nowhere to go except The free EX-PREMIE forum.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:46:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Two Feet's Insightful Reality Check
Message:
In a thread below, Two Feet made a post about Captain Rawat's musing at Nottingham that people have suggested he should be planning on providing for his future, but that there was no need for him to do so since, in that tired old premie adage, 'the future will take care of itself'. How disgusting and offensive this comment is, Captain Rawat!

Captain Rawat does not have to plan for his future because he and his family were taken care of financially decades ago. How dare you suggest that you even have to consider such financial issues? You are a multi-millionaire, who owns and has access to lavish homes the world over, a Gulfstream 5 jet for your personal use, a yacht worthy of display on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous, and a personal fortune which will keep you and yours comfortable for years to come. You did not have this fortune or these assets when you came to the west. You acquired it from the sweat of your devotees. You don't need to worry about your pension because people like Joe Whalen gave his inheritance amounting to tens of thousands of dollars to you instead of going to law school. YOUR future, Captain Rawat, is secure, because other people gave up their own financial security to you. Don't bow your head in ignorance when you mention this at programs. Admit that you don't have to worry because your devotees sacrificed their professional and personal futures in order to protect you, at great expense to themselves. Where is your gratitude to them, to us, for these sacrifices?

Rawat's comments in Nottingham just further illustrate the spiritual and emotional bankruptcy of how he views other people.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:15:22 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Reality check
Message:
Hi Marianne I was thinking about you.
The gall of this man to even speak those words. He has no morals, he is a selfish SOB.
Retirement yeah, that is what I am trying to do now in my 40's, plan for retirement because all the while this guy was more important than my own wellbeing. Codependent? Yes, I am better but that was what got me in this bloody cult.
Anyway send you hugs Marianne,
Mercedes :)
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 07:53:11 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: This just has to be mentioned
Message:
It may be obvious to most Ex cult members but when Rawat said, --that people have suggested he should be planning on providing for his future, but that there was no need for him to do so since, in that tired old premie adage, 'the future will take care of itself'-- he is really 'allowing' his adoring flock to think for themselves that the future will take care of itself so there's no need for financial planning for retirement age. In other words, they can conclude of their own free will that rather than setting money aside for retirement they can spend it now on HIM. What a guy, What a guy!
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:56:27 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What did MJ say that would make YOU hoot now?
Message:
Hi darling! It's really amazing that MJ said that, isn't it?

I can hardly believe it.

I mean, if you heard this now, sitting in a program, you would start hooting and laughing.

It put me into thinking of other things that he used to say that I would leap out of my seat hooting and laughing at, right now.

Let's see:

God, my mind is a blank, but I know it's in there. Can anyone remind me, so I can have a hoot and a laugh. That's partly why I come here.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:04:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: 'When you meditate, meditate for yourself...
Message:
...don't meditate for me. I'm already at that infinite state.'

Laughable unless by 'infinite state' he meant California. Or perhaps he meant 'perpetual state' as in state of perpetual inebriation.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:07:19 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Maybe Maharaji needs to heal and move on?
Message:
You know maybe he really, really, you know, like needs to do some serious healing, get some closure over this Lord of the Universe episode and try and move on.

To be FRANK, maybe he needs to do some therapy. SUMMER in your heart only happens when you heal. But there is hope, there is always hope. Tell him from me, there is 'hope'. It can be a VILE process at first but you have to stay with the healing. And trust too and patience. Got to be patient and trust that there are people who care, there really are. So he needs to heal so he can move on and stop speaking about all of this. Because really the more he speaks about this, the more he will prevent the healing process from happening.

But I'm quoting out of context, aren't I EV monitors..

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 13:18:28 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: 'It's like, you know this is a path, and like,
Message:
you have to completely grow into it, you have to completely move into it. And there is going to be a certain point where you are going to start from zero. Because a car doesn't start from sixty miles an hour and just keep it up. He has to start from zero miles an hour; and no matter if he has got 84 cylinders in it - it's got to start from zero miles an hour and then DEVELOP itself. There is going to be a point where it's going to be zero, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 till sixty - there is going to be a point. And like, when you reach to a point you just imagine something still faster. And that faster speed you are going in becomes nothing for you, it just completely becomes illusion for you - you just HATE it, you don't LIKE it - it just really becomes crazy for you, because you are going that fast yet still you want to go faster. Because it's like, you have completely devoted yourself to just presuming the fastest speed. And then you reach to no point. Because when you are reaching to the perfect point, your mind wants to go somewhere even FURTHER more.'

Vrooommm! Bood'n, bood'n, bood'n!

Guru Maserati, 11-28-73, Denver, Colorado
The Round Mound of Profound

Tee hee, Katie!
;) Gina

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:01:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: cognacji:'would you please get your nose out of my
Message:
anal sphincter?'
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 03:04:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: What did MJ say that would make YOU hoot now?
Message:
Hi Marianne and Disculta, thanks for remnding me why I read FV.

His Holeyness often talked about his dog, his wife and his car in the same breath such as: ''If you give your love to your dog or your wife or your car it will never last like the love that you give to the urug etc.''

The man is a total phoney and probably nuts.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 07:19:11 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Knowledge as peanut butter - By His Grace
Message:
This always struck me as a most profound and wise gem. It comes from And it is divine march 75

'And who is going to finally getting all the credit for spreading this Knowledge around? It's never been Guru Maharaji Ji himself; you know that. It might sound funny to you, but it's never been. He has got the peanut butter, but he is not gonna spread it around. You are the knife! You spread it.'

It does sound funny to me Maharaji. I'm so glad I'm no-longer spreading peaNUT butter. Never really wanted to be a knife. And then of course who or what is the bread? People in the world? And who gets to eat the bread that the knife (premie) has spread the peanut butter (knowledge) on? Well, one things for sure, we know who got to consume all the 'bread' because he's certainly got a lot of it now.

And this is peculiar too and from the same satsang by The Lord of the Universe.

It's about bread too, in a way.

'I was in Denver and finally got the chance to be able to go through the whole organization, the subsidaries and everything. [read, the 'bread']It's so amazing. I mean, it's terrific. The potential of premies is too much. It's even too much to imagine what they can do. It's like an overnight job. See, this is the thing here: one and one usually make two. But not here. One and one make eleven. When it's a case of premies, one and one make eleven.'

Hmmm...

And later...

'They have these bags in America and I bet you anything they have them here too. They are bean bags. When you first sit on them, they are really uncomfortable because there is nothing there. You just sit on a pile o' beans. But if you jiggle yourself aroud, that's like, trying to occupy more space than you really need, it's so comfortable. You can stretch out your legs; you can do anything you want. It's really comfortable.

So premies, if you giggle yourself around a little bit, more community, more people recieve Knowledge. And that's convenient for you. [...] Everything is interconnecting. And if this link isn't good enough, don't try and hook another link to it, because it's just going to go - ping! - and be right where it was. And that's even worse; that is really, really bad. So many premies get confused that way.'

And who can fault them. From a knife to a bean in a bag, to ... oh gosh the logic is just too much.

And then he said:

'So, it's like, I'll be more than happy to send a mahatma here.... But, every premie has to be able to cooperate with him. When that happens it's just so beautiful, it's just so strong. Just get into it and you will see.'

[Yes, we did indeed see]

'When we organise big programs, we have to stay awake, say, two nights and two days, non-stop. All you see premies doing is drinking coffee, probably. No food, nothin' doing, just working, working. People sometimes say 'How can they? They gotta be mad! They gotta be crazy. They gotta be nuts to be able to work like that'.

Nuts like peanut butter.

At the front of this magazine it says:

'Dear Reader, By the grace of Almighty Lord, we bring you the magazine And It Is Divine. You will find this magazine very different from others, because it shows not only the suffering of the world but also a way out for all humanity. '

If you don't laugh, you cry.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:37:56 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: The naieve, the adolescent, the unbalanced
Message:
The weary and weak.

Gad, how could any of us ever bought that nonsense!

Must of been young, inexperienced, not quite grown up or unbalanced with 'issues.'

That's how I remember premies. The one these days are either in too deep; the Ira Woods; or intelectually lazy, or still unbalanced.

I know these are somewhat bigoted statements concering the type of human Ralwat is able to dominate with his Master hype and breath is oh so precious dogma, however that's pretty much how I see it.

There will always be the weary and weak, and the co-dependents.

Knowledge is power. The sooner M's followers wake up to the hard cold facts the sooner they will really grow as people. Talk about marking time in one never ending vacumn!

Not to worry about retirement though, there's always 'the grace' or the state to take care of you!

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 11:04:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: if you don't laugh, you cry (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:58:47 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a silver lining:internet evolution + reality check
Message:
upon further calm reflection regarding volatile happenings around this very limited arena of ex-premiedom here as of late:

* 99% of the tens of thousands of ex-premies don't even participate here or at any other ex-premie or premie sites -- they simply moved on, without fanfare or controversy, or either are busy elsewhere, disinterested, or simply don't have or can't afford internet access (especially in many areas of India, Africa, and Latin America), or perhaps they don't write or speak in the available language choices.

* what has been developing on the internet [including FV] is an organic unfolding of the human nature of diverse personalities and choices, which is now naturally transpiring, transforming and evolving as various site choices/options, individual voices and tones, and an assortment of approaches and site parameters or guidelines. This same evolution and diversity plays out constantly in political movements, religions, clubs, economies, and personal lifestyle choices, etc.

* as the internet grows, so too will the continued proliferation of choices and options for all cults and their respective exes.

* a more civil F5 [or F6] might actually be m's and EVI's worst nightmare -- no more rational basis for labelling epo as 'ex-premie.hate' by the cult operatives. That means even less credibility for maha and the org operatives, when he tells premies to avoid this website.

* more ex-premie sites means more likelihood of ex-premies, premies, aspirants, and their families finding ex-premie sites via search engines, and thereupon reading critical and revealing facts about the miragey personality cult from a wider spectrum of voices, and consequently participating, too.

* more ex-premie sites and forums - and hence choices - means less authoritarian or possible monolithic control of exes' individual voices on the internet by any individual or small clique by any one site -- incl tone, opinions, and respective goals/missions. In effect, less potential for cult-like behaviours or rigid mindsets or regimentation.

* more ex and premie forums and sites means more opportunities for debate and further disclosures.

* let's face it; the fact is that there never was a united front here, anyway, except perhaps in the very beginning.

* neither Brian, JHB, Jim, Bazza, or Katie are 'traitors', and the poor deluded premies are not our hated 'enemies;' that's some kind of knee-jerk reactive emotionalism, partisanship, animosity, or just a downright ignorant and/or intolerant fascist warlike mentality. Understandable in this situation? clearly, yes. But unfortunate [and hopefully fleeting] -- not admirable, altruistic or sensible.

* further rabid emotionalism, partisan animosity or name-calling here now amongst the exes [or other compulsive and unrestrained negative behaviours] will only serve to obscure reason and sanity, thereby undermining healthy fellowship, the continued legitimate exposure of maha's cult, and assistance to those questioning or needing excape from the cult's clutches.

* I would hope that all the ex-premie sites would at least agree to link together, using Salam's model links as the basis for continued activities and a common cause -- in the spirit of cooperation, friendship, and personal freedom of choices and modus operandi.

(Note: I do think that the operators of epo and FV should always bear in mind and appreciate, too, that a whole lot of people's input and efforts have contributed to the success of this site, and that no one party, clique or directorship can honestly or legitimately claim proprietorship to the truths or diverse written expressions made here. This has been a community effort of many well-intentioned ex-premies.)

Accordingly, I hope some folks out there will understand and appreciate my simple message here. It is said that there is a silver lining in every cloud. Well, this is actually human nature operating and creative Evolution in action, my friends, and what may have seemed to some lately merely as some kind of a personal or political vendetta playing out on this byte-size stage is simply the somewhat painful birthing of the next step for all involved.

Wishing everyone well, and peace, contentment, and goodwill in the hearts and minds of everyone so affected,

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami


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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 19:08:01 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Cool!......................../nt
Message:
zzz
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 16:29:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Thanks so much SUCH! love and -----n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 17:04:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca
Message:
Are you coming over from the south pole or have decide to live with the penguins?

Well am trying to know if you are around, if you are e-mail me, plleetttzzzzzzz

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 12:35:00 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: words of *such* wisdom, compassion and clarity. nt
Message:
peace
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 02:36:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: reality check - amen, Swami
Message:
Couldn't have said it better myself and only good will come from all of this.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 22:01:22 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rationality and emotionality
Message:
I sat down the other day and wrote this, any input into the musings of my brain most welcome:

Have you ever tried telling a young girl you don’t believe in fairies? My guess, if you have, is that the response you got was one of gentle concern, and the question, perhaps, 'Don’t you believe in magic, then?'

I recently read a book (Gallileos Daughter by Dava Sobel) which highlighted the psycholgical split in our thinking.

When Copernicus first said that we go round the sun, not the sun round us, it was as if we went ‘errrrr’. You can imagine how it must have been, it must have seemed to contradict the very evidence of our senses, after all we had watched the sun rise and set every day of our lives.

It seemed to take off slowly, Copernicus was able to publish, even though, at that time books were okayed by the Church; but then, Gallileo turned up and said we can use our ability to think logically to make sense of the evidence of our senses and determine, at least from our necessarily limited perspective, what is the truth of the matter, and the evidence mounts up that we go round the sun.

Now we had a problem; here was a man, devout believer in God, Catholic to the end, saying that we were not the centre of the universe, which was the current belief of the day. This, because it was specifically bound up in the relationship we had developed with our omnipotent God, directly challenged our deepest convictions.

It appears, from Dava Sobels book, that he struggled with the dilemma to the end of his life.

Well, in my estimation, we’re still struggling. Gallileo may have sat down and tried to resolve it, but in many other countries inquiring minds had the bit between the teeth, and they were not about to sit down and talk when a whole new approach to understanding life was firing. And those who disliked the loss of authority and certainty reacted badly.

To me, it seems that we put it in the too hard basket, and have been attempting instead to learn how to tolerate mutually exclusive beliefs in one living body, something we have approached with all seriousness, dedication and inventiveness, and a marked lack of success in terms of happy healthy living.

Naturally enough, we have used the tools at hand, our own innate abilities, such as compartmentalising, bonding, trickery, in ways that hurt, because we have turned them on ourselves, constituting, really, self abuse. I have come to the conclusion that this is a bad idea, I think we are one organism enveloped in skin, and it is not our rationality and emotionality that are mutually exclusive, just some of the ideas we have picked up.

And, boy, do we have some silly ones. For instance, why does a man buy a beautiful large tract of land, rip it to pieces, subdivide it into the smallest pieces he can, then go home, get out his trowel, and work in his garden???????????????

I do not think we have an easy road ahead of us, and maybe we will go down in a ball of smoke trying, we know from our own personal journeys into reintegration how hairy it can get,……and we also know how good it feels.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 23:23:33 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Rationality versus emotionality?
Message:
Hi leslie, The history of Astronomy is one of academic goals so I really appreciated the analogy and will look for the book in the library.

I'd just like to tweek one statement you made for historical accuracy:

It seemed to take off slowly, Copernicus was able to publish, even though, at that time books were okayed by the Church;
Copernicus

Copernicus had an uncle who was a Bishop in the church and Copernicus was very involved himself. Copernicus knew how blasphemus his astronomical postulation would be so he never attempted to publish his theory. It was upon his deathbed that his peers promised to publish his works

I found this part very revealing:

but then, Gallileo turned up and said we can use our ability to think logically to make sense of the evidence of our senses and determine, at least from our necessarily limited perspective, what is the truth of the matter, and the evidence mounts up that we go round the sun.

This is cool. It's interesting that his belief came first and then because of the innovation of using a lens which Galileo turned up to the heavens, low and behold! he proved his theory. He discovered craters on the moon and sunspots (challenging of course, the Aristotlian/Platonian religio-science concept that perfect is umblemished). What solidified his theory was the fact that he determined the phases of Venus. Meaning that Venus orbited the Sun. Hence, the whole emergence of Geo-centricism

Now, how can I tie that bit in with M & K. Look at the premies fierce belief system of PERFECT (Master) and UMBLEMISHED assumption. M intertwing his soul with Knowledge has done a lot of harm to all of us. Thank God I realized that damaging Belief System in this life.

Greatful for EPO! You rock!

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 03:09:55 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: copernicus ot
Message:
Yeah, you're right, he didn't try to publish, nevertheless he did pass the idea around and he didn't get into trouble, just started it!lol
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:02:02 (GMT)
From: Nelson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'I see no ships' - long post
Message:
Dear All

Below is a translation of a number of documents which came through my letter box this morning. I decided to set myself the task, suffering from the frustration of recent FV events.

I haven't translated absolutely everything, and there are one or two very short phrases which defeated my rusty French. Similarly, the quality of the translation wouldn't get an A+, but I think I have been true to the gist of the original.

It comprises: a letter from EV president, France;a summary of a Conference Call to French premies;a summary of q+a's from the French EV web site. I didn't finish the whole translation - bored with the spin. The most interesting bits are the Conference Call and some of the Q + As.

Elan Vital, 24 June

Dear Friend

I became the new president of Elan Vital on 31 March 2001 and it is in that capacity that I am writing.

On Monday 11 June we organised a telephone conference call, so that as many people as possible could be informed about the situation concerning EV. We had been able to get 80 simultaneous lines, and about 200 people participated in the conference. The attached document summarises the main points, gives extracts from the questions/answers on our web site, and a copy of the right to reply article published in L'Humanite, which published it its entirety except for the paragraph concerning how to contact EV.

We do not want to accept the image which certain people want to give of us. We are therefore working actively with professionals both on the legal and media side of things. Several legal actions and media activities are being considered and will be put into place in the very near future. We want to react in the most efficient way to ensure that neither Maharaji nor EV has to undergo another so unfairly libellous media campaign. We have to make sure that EV can evolve with dignity in an environment in which ambiguity has been lifted.

It will be quite easy, but it has become a priority of EV. A team of specialists and volunteers are dedicated solely to achieving this objective in the shortest possible time.

I want to say that we are happy that Maharaji was able to come and speak and to leave the country in total safety. He was informed point by point about everything that was happening, before, during and after Versaille.

I want to take the time to thank all those who spent much time and energy to ensure that the programme happened in the best of conditions.

And 1026 new people attended the introductory programme in Barcelona which followed Versailles, and 750 new people the Lisbon one.

Best wishes

Jean Paul Briberian.

Summary of the Conference Call of 11 June

As many of you will have noticed, EV a recently been the object of a defamatory media campaign. A number of factors coming together at the same time explains its extent:

 A small group of people who have received the techniques of Knowledge (between 30 and 40 in the world), in order to oppose Maharaji are taking part in a few very defamatory Internet sites. These sites are driven by 4 or 5 very active people. One of them lives in France. He/she a created a site in which about a dozen French speaking people participate.
 One part of this site formed the subject of a special 44 page edition of the magazine 'Combat', of which two thirds were dedicated to Elan Vital. This edition was published in mid-May. This magazine is only sold by correspondence and has links with the paper 'L'Humanite'. They only publish defamatory articles.
 Claiming that it could not and did not know how to contact EV, L'Humanite published large extracts from 'Combat'. WE immediately reacted by asking for the right of response, which was published, along with another defamatory page.
 Combat, the Voltaire Group and the ex-premies published a press release asking that Maharaji should not be allowed to enter into Shengen territory.
 A section of the press took up these articles to make written, tv and radio reports: le Figaro, LE Parisien, Radio Monte-Carlo, Europe 1, France Info, France Culture, France Musique, Radio Nostalgie. Many of these reports were negative.
 During the week preceding the programme in Versailles, the Senate voted for a law which had already been in the news, both abroad and in France. This law is meant to facilitate the struggle against sects by creating the offence of 'abuse of the state of ignorance' which would replace, at the last minute, that of 'mental manipulation' which had initially been projected.

In this context, the arrival of Maharaji on 27 May in France fell just at the right time for the media.

It seemed important to us to have an open attitude towards journalists. We gave them extensive access to the Versailles hall so that they could realise themselves that we are not a sect and that our concern for transparency is real. Those who came to Versailles - France 2 and France Info - were able to film the grounds around the hall, the forum , the auditorium and to ask ask questions to anyone who was prepared to answer.

They seemed surprised but pleased with the welcome they had been given. The relationship was good.

Result

 The next day France Info showed interviews with 3 people with Knowledge and with M. Vivien, manager of MILS.
 France 2 did a report on the news of 27 May. The pictures and the commentary were in complete contradiction with what the tv crews had been able to film during the 2 days (they claimed that they were not able interview anyone except for the spokesman, blurring the first line of the contributions section of the invitation which stated that no fee was asked for to get in to the hall and declaring that it cost money). Apparently, the aim of these journalists was only to show a pre-established scenario.
 Canal+ did not show the 4 minutes which was due to be screened the next Sunday on Karl Zero's 'Vrai Journal'.

What we learned

Unfortunately, our lack of knowledge of the media world worked against us. We realised, but a little late, that the services of an external consultant could have prevented the reports from being so manipulated.

Furthermore, the speed with which the press intervened: before 8.30am on the first day. The journalists did not give us the time to warn the guests of their presence in the halls. Many guests reacted - justifiably - at the idea of being on the television associated to a so-called sect, moreover one labelled dangerous. The prejudice brought to family or professional life could be serious.

We had anticipated these problems by reminding the journalists on several occasions that we did not want to see on screen people who had not given their permission. The journalists assured us that they would respect the French law in relation to photographic rights. We sent them faxes to remind them officially of our concerns.

France 2 and Canal+ assured us that the projected pictures would be blurred, and France 2 told us that even the archived images would be as well, except, of course, those of the people who agreed to give an interview.

Questions and Answers

You can find on www.elanvital.fr a series of questions and answers relating to Elan Vital, Maharaji and the Knowledge, as well as a press section to go with the press release from Versailles. In particular you can read answers about Maharaji's resources, which seemed to preoccupy the media.

Although all these answers are or are going to be soon on the site, I want to remind you a few very important points which are replies to criticisms often put against Maharaji and Elan Vital.

 Maharaji holds programmes at no cost. Neither he nor his family receive any royalties. Only his travelling expenses are paid for when he does a programme. For his private travel, Maharaji pays himself for the cost of the plane put at his disposal.
 Maharaji has his own revenue, coming largely from investments in companies. When he came to the West, patrons who appreciated his message helped him. He now has the means to live the comfortable life which he desires.

(nb there are 4 or 5 more 'answers', but they are dull and I am bored! They aim to show that EV pays all its taxes, has never been prosecuted etc. etc. The final attachment was the press release which has already been translated on FV).

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 08:08:28 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Nelson
Subject: Thanks, Nelson
Message:
What struck me about it was that EV felt it needed to prepare for speaking about the TRUTH and how EV wants to EVOLVE with dignity. Very, very interesting. Thanks, again.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:55:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat on cable TV in the US ?
Message:
Can anybody get details ?

I assume you can find this on Ev's websites somewhere ....

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 04:27:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I couldn't stand it.
Message:
JM:

Sheesh, we can't get the Tour de France (OLN is on some silly part time schedule that omits the biggest bike race in the world in favor of Winnie the Pooh), but no problem getting a pudgy middle-aged con man. We have some public access channels that show this sort of crap, but I have them programmed out.

Scott 'Can't believe I have no TdF coverage' T.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 16:07:13 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rawat on cable TV in the US ?
Message:
J-M,

I believe EV sent out an email announcement about 6 months ago that the M-fommercials that used to be pay-per-view on Dish Network satellite would now be free. That applies to the satellite broadcasts that require the viewer have a satellite dish receiver. If the New York broadcasts ar via cable, then that is a new development. I'll check to see if I can locate the email from EV.

I can just imagine Bubba and BeckySue in Arkansas channel surfing for a good porno movie late one night and -WHAM- there's Marolyn or Waddi talking about how beautiful it is to have a master that reminds you to breathe. 'What the heck is that thing they talkin' about? Hey, let's watch this. I kinda' miss Jim and Tammi Faye Bakker'

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:42:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: It'll help old Ted Farkel and that TRAC center ...
Message:
... in Alabama, won't it. Old Ted can show them that hubcap arti is where it's at.

==f

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:50:15 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Could use a little TED, Pauline and Larkin now /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 20:56:37 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thank You Richard
Message:
I knew it would come to this, and you miserable, negative, drug-addicted, mental cases who are constantly trashing Maharaji on this website would ask for some from-the-heart inspiration. I knew you had it in you. You aren't completely gone; remember a long time ago when Maharaji said he had 'never lost a premie?' Well, here we go.

I am really tired today, because I'm back in New York (I was asked to stop participating at Elan Vital because of some of the things I did there, although I think Elan Vital is kind of screwed up. Poor Maharaji has always had to put up with organizations that are just so disorganized. But I say, fuck them. All I need is Maharaji and my breath, so I'm glad to be back living in the trunk of my car in Flusing, Queens.)

Anyhow, like I said, I'm tired, because I stayed up all night at my friend Jennifer's apartment and watched cable access to get to see Maharaji propogate to the millions of people in New York. Man, there are some weird people in this world, which I know from watching that channel. Nudity, crudity, even a guy who ate his own feces while tap dancing. Very weird. So, how blissful to see Maharaji's face appear amongst all that darkness.

You know, they say that when times are darkest, that's when the Perfect Master, er, I mean THE Master, comes into this screwed up, lunatic world to show them that love, that peace, that truth and that experience, which is that gift. Anyhow, it was just so great to see Maharaji's 5-minute infomercial in between the feces guy, and a woman who played chess on a chess board tatooed to her humongous breasts.

Boy, Maharaji is really using all the technology available to him to spread this knowledge to every land and tell them that our father is finally here. I mean, who other than the 'artist of creation' would do something so artistic as appear on cable-access TV? And even though cable access is free, I'm sure Visions spent about a gazillion dollars pulling that together, and we will have to do tons of fundraising for the next 10 years to pay for that. I mean, video and cable access don't cheap, you know.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 05:38:29 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Thank YOU Pauline!
Message:
Funny but you don't quite sound yourself. Is there perhaps a tiny bit of old Mister Mind creeping in to your normally empty head? You don't happen to know a PWK in NY named Charles that's a really important big-time lawyer that speaks two languages do you? He looks like he may be just the type of guy for you. In any case you are welcome here anytime.
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:54:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Pauline I just love you to bits
Message:
Please repost this on AG. We need a good laugh over there too and Mahatma Coat Ji is calling for you. Please pretty please. Here's the link.

The Free Expremie Forum (the germ of F6)

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:32:30 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Rawat on cable TV in the US ?
Message:
Someone I don't remember posted this info here a couple of days ago.

He saw Rawat's face on some cable TV progamme in NY ....

Great news !!

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Rawat on cable TV in the US ?
Message:
This may be a red herring but I wonder if this is a possibility. Just before this business with the satellite TV thing started I went to a large EV/Raja Ji 'what's happening' session here in New York. Raja Ji was doing his usual ramble but then asked 'how many people can/would get satellite TV receivers if MJ would broadcast from there?'. About 15% of people put their hands up - he was shocked and didn't seem to understand that it is a physical impossiblity, certainly if you live in Manhattan. I wonder if EV has got round this problem by raising funds in NY and arranging the broadcasts on a community channel?
Probably wrong but you never know!
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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 23:36:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: Rawat on cable TV in the US ?Possibly....
Message:
I know a bit about satellite TV and local cable access TV too.

In some communities a local cable access channel can use one satellite dish to broadcast onto cable.
Anyone on the cable can then get the satellite feed.

I think that presently this is only for certain channels.

There is one cable access channel out of Boulder,Col. on the Dish 500 satellite system that will broadcast any local cable access programs from around the country for free on that channel on the Dish 500.
They even pay a little bit once in awhile to get a show for their channel.

BTW, that could be an effective outlet to broadcast any 'other' types of M videos, other than the standard cult-fare available today from the friendly master.

I tend to think that the NYC viewer saw the current Dish network broadcast, which is on a certain channel for anyone to see.
I don't think they even have to request it, it's just on, along with all the other infomercials....

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:44:13 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: Regarding Raja Ji
Message:
Hi, I didn't know Raja Ji was still supporting his brother. I have a good friend that I want to get in touch with and he is (or maybe in this case, was) a good friend of RJ.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 19:44:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Other way around dear
Message:
Raja Ji is being supported BY his brother. You don't think he's giving up that gravy train too soon, do you? LOL

--f

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 21:22:29 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Other way around dear
Message:
I heard it from someone directly that Raja Ji said it was all a 'crock of shit'.

But the money thing, yeah! How could he leave that!

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 00:25:11 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: RJ and crock o'shit
Message:
RJ's always been glib -- and many say that for a long time the premies' hard-earned donations were going up his nose. (How dare he?) I can believe he may have said to someone privately that it's all a crock o' shit.
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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 01:58:12 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: RJ and crock o'shit
Message:
Oh he did say that! I just don't remember who told me.

Nose candy indulgence is not a big stretch considering what we know about his brother, is it?

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 15:45:11 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: German surprise
Message:
Jonathan Minton of ELK seems to be loosening up, or losing it, or something.

His report from Germany had some surprises. Jim, at Forum 6, posted the main surprise, a distinct insult to Marilyn Rawat. If I were still a premie, I would definitely object to the Master's wife being critiqued in this manner, regardless of the fact that it was entirely deserved.

Perhaps when Jonathan says that 'letters were then read' he meant that somebody other than Marilyn was reading them, and so he was insulting a mere premie. But it doesn't read like that, and if that is the case, they might consider a better wording.

Another surprise for me was Jonathan admitting to having a 'smug grin' on his face after the event. An unusually accurate account for a premie.

I was also surprised that Rawat was quoted as telling the premies to present Knowledge to newcomers 'without intellect.' We already know that's what he likes in his premies, but to come right out and say it so bluntly, hmmm? How can you do that, anyway? How do you talk to someone in an understandable manner without any intellect involved? Do you just sit there and beam?

This report combined with Wolfie's presents a really bizarre picture.

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Date: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 17:48:02 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: German surprise is really no surprise!
Message:
Way, premies won't notice the innuendos and they nod non-critically so will the aspirants that attend.

Funny how M is using 'intellect' now rather than the ambiguous mind. Reason is:We've highlighted their intellectual deficit and so now M wants to discredit intelligence. Yeesh, do we ever have a lot of fodder for the press. This is getting better by the minute

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 15:20:04 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: The sickest thing about the Mainz event
Message:
As reported on ELK: 'Maharaji said he has seen aspirants halfway through a Knowledge session who show more understanding than those who have been around for 30 years.' The report says that this remark elecited a big applause and must have touched a common chord.

Well, who was applauding? The recent initiates or the old-timers? I'm sure it was everyone. Oh, Maharaji, you are so big and I am so small. Beat me down, Master. Whip me into shape. I could never possibly make it without you.

The Master/devotee relationship surely does manifest as spiritual sado-masochism.

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Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2001 at 20:23:41 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: The sickest thing about the Mainz event--yuccck
Message:
Maharaji says that all the time:

I heard that in 1980 when I rec'd knowledge. He always says that to invalidate the cult dribble for new people.

It's fresh blood and fresh bucks. Flattery will get you every where.

Execept, irony is, poor premies don't know when they're kicked in the teeth and laughed at by the one they adore and defend the most.

That is truly sad. Asshole Maharaji

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