Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 13, 2001 To: Jul 20, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


wolfie -:- Event in Mainz -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:43:57 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Thanks wolfie -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:32:30 (EDT)
__ such -:- 'Without this guy you never can come home'-yikes [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:14:58 (EDT)

Nige and Moley -:- Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:27:18 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Thanks for dropping a line -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:33:45 (EDT)
__ SF (selene) -:- hi to both of you -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:36:37 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Hi Nigel and Moley -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:21:11 (EDT)
__ bill -:- We will repost many of your gems over time -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:08:31 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Best 2 U Moley/Nige :) (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:16:49 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- You mean you two actually got a life? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:36 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:40 (EDT)
__ __ Nige -:- BTW: ckeck your mailbox.. nt -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:14:40 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Re: 'cause' -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:16:44 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Good to hear trom you. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:08:04 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks, well said... -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:13:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- To all the folks who posted above -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:34:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: To all the folks who posted above -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:05:08 (EDT)

Dave -:- Please read this -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:31:50 (EDT)
__ Doesn't open another window -:- Re: Please read this -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:13:52 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- OK try it now and -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:46:57 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Don't click that link -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:18:36 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- It should open a new browser window -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:43:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: It should open a new browser window -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:46:55 (EDT)

???? -:- can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:14:22 (EDT)
__ bill -:- sure but we look for those we know first. [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:10:22 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- No, from now on it's got to be '????' (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:41:13 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:26 (EDT)

gerry -:- Amesterdam is Bjorn Again -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:33:01 (EDT)
__ Paris -:- So what? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:12 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: So what? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Paris -:- Re: So what? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- More Bjorn/Bongo/Paris, etc. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:44:38 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- and Klown... ? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:33:18 (EDT)

Deborah -:- FA: Bug in software? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:51:13 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: FA: Bug in software?? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:20:58 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- Looks OK to me -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:53 (EDT)

Jeffrey Donner's post -:- A Metaphor -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:18:26 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Jeff, you comin back?....nt -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:54:01 (EDT)
__ __ Jeffrey Donner -:- Re: Jeff, you comin back?....nt -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:25 (EDT)

Malibu Mole -:- Event in WORCESTER , MASS -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:18 (EDT)
Yeah, right -:- Utter Bullshit -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:56:18 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Speaking of utter bullshit, Yeah, right -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:11:48 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Sorry, yeah, right -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:26:49 (EDT)
__ bill -:- relax Mr Yeah, -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:24:25 (EDT)
__ __ Way's post on talking -:- to a premie. Not a war. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Wolfie's post on a talk -:- with a premie -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ And Deborah's post on the -:- subject, again, Not a war. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:32:59 (EDT)
__ SF -:- A threat? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:15:09 (EDT)
__ __ Yeah right -:- So...do you? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- What's this about my balls? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 01:52:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: What's this about my balls? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:40:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: What's this about my balls? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:52:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: What's this about my balls? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:46:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Shirts? - Crap analogy, Dep.. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: What's this about my balls?? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:53:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- OK the forum is a little less without Jim (nt) [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:25:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- It's cooler than that. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:57:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill I propose a name for -:- this forum, Sir David's Luv Club -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:00:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ SF -:- I speak for myself -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:49:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Yeah -:- Re: I speak --and cookies -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:13:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: I speak --and cookies -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:04:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Great post Joey ... -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:36:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Re: I speak --and cookies -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:58:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ You talking about aliases? -:- you stupid stupid person -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:23:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ So what ? -:- Re: you stupid stupid person -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:55:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ I don't care what crappy MSDOS -:- you're using. I said Stop using MK's handle -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:47:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- Re: yoyou has a posse ? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:37:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ So what ... -:- David? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:01:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SF -:- if you agreed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:24:51 (EDT)

Joe -:- To David A, it's a personal thing -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:05:05 (EDT)
__ Richard II -:- It is a personal thing indeed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:42:07 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- It's not so complicated -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:05:16 (EDT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Re: It is a personal thing indeed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:55:26 (EDT)

Selene / SF -:- Off topic and annoyed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:27:06 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Re: Off topic and chuckling -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ SF -:- ok will email -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:00:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Why am I not surprised to find out who SC is? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:46:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene/ SF -:- and a cheery good morning to you -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:14:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- yea and -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:30:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- my ass isn't fat -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:34:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- How sweet the sound -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:43:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- is that bliss not working for you ? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:38:01 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji TV Broadcast -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:06 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Great post ! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:28 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Hey Krusty! Read this one -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:46:50 (EDT)
__ Krusty the Klown -:- Re: Hey Deborah, read this one -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:24:27 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey honey pie -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ me again-forgot to mention -:- Krusty is a CLOWN with K -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:49:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sebastion Cole -:- yes, truth is funny Debutante -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:56:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Cowardly CAT! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:11:46 (EDT)

Steve Quint -:- Forum 6 -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:53:16 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- Make your own or ... -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:09:15 (EDT)

Larkin -:- Songbook online -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:28:21 (EDT)
__ Larkin -:- Experment added to site -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:14:26 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Thank you, thank you -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:53:38 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- Many thanks Larkin -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:21:11 (EDT)
__ Mr D -:- Re: Songbook online -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:53:31 (EDT)

mayo -:- I have a confession -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 12:22:19 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Don't give up the day job Naise. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:49:47 (EDT)

mayo -:- Hey nutty knight -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:20:36 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:43:57 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Event in Mainz
Message:
Hi everyone,
there are different reactions amongst the premies about the programm in Mainz. Of course there are the ones, who say that this was a successfull event. According to my observations this programm was the worst one, not in the way it was organized but in the way, what was said and how MJ was presented. I think the premies here in Germany tried really to make it nice. ´
But some faithful premies out of my town are really shocked about the programm itself. One premie will collected the critics and will write a letter to MJ. He even feels responsible for the guests he had invited and because those guest were really shocked. Some people could stand physically the long videos. It was not only that there was one and a half day only video but, what was so obvious, is the complet twist, how the message is presented. The concept of Master and Devotee again is announced very powerful, like with one statement of MJ himself:' Without this guy( and he definetly was meaning himself)you never can come home' I would say, for people with a normal avarage mental healthy condition, they are now warned after this programm, that they maybe end up in a cult one day. I'm glad, that a few premies more, are asking now: who is responsible for that? So far the discussions about that goes, of course the organisation gets blamed for that, premies are not able to see that maybe MJ himself is responsible for that all. On this really phoney video they showed on the programm, it was produced by his kids and to see and hear him on this video even shocked a premie, who had received knowledge in a very unconviniant knowledgesession in Vienna, but this is another story.

ciao .....wolfie...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:32:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Thanks wolfie
Message:
Always enjoy your perspective on things!

bests, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:14:58 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: 'Without this guy you never can come home'-yikes [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:27:18 (EDT)
From: Nige and Moley
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D!
Message:
(and I am sure that sooner or later you might need some ;)

We would just like to say hi to everyone and hope it all goes well with the relaunch. One way or another, I am sure EPO is here to stay, regardless of onboard personnel or even website location. But well done anyway, to everyone willing to devote their time – past, present and future. For as long as the cult is in business, there will be useful work to be done.

We would also like to add that if we are not around on FVI very much it has nothing to do with any overspill of issues from the recent midsummer madness on Forum V, nor do we feel any personal animosity towards anyone we might have disagreed with.

But for myself (Nigel), I have recently spent some time I otherwise might have frittered away on the forum, checking out the wider internet (a place it is often hard to get myself to if I even pause for a second to look at EPO) and have also been questioning the best ways of using my spare creative energies. If my contributions to EPO have had any value for others (as some people have assured me) it seems to be my ‘Journeys’ post which they talk about rather than forum stuff. And since my journey has a permanent home I don’t feel much need to be here. It does get tiring arguing the same arguments with diehard premie visitors who have no intention of changing their minds and who bear so little resemblance to any premie I have known in real life. Fun for a while, maybe, but ultimately frustrating and too repetitious - but I am glad there are many others willing to stick around and do it

Anyway, we have both decided to get more involved with some other useful causes, notably Amnesty International’s campaigns. With the possible exception of Jagdeo’s activities or some premies being headfucked to the point of suicide, nothing in cult history approaches – for example - the sheer horror of imprisonment without trial followed by torture, such commonplace activities worldwide they barely get a mention in the press- although it is happening to probably hundreds of people even as we breathe each happy new breath. Yeah, Life's Great, right? (There is a lot of evidence that AI’s campaigns DO make a difference and DO save lives, so I would encourage anybody interested to check out their website and send off a cheque if they want to support AI’s work.) Let’s face it, if Prem was going to deliver a world where lions lie down with lambs, he’d have shown some progress by now…

As for me (Moley) I love the forum most of all for the opportunities it brings to meet fascinating people. But I have often felt pangs of guilt about the amount of time I have spent arguing points about the cult when, after all, as Nige has said, there are much, much worse things going on in the world- notably child hunger and disease, the Chinese orphanages, the subjugation of, and violence towards, women - than a bunch of relatively affluent, free people having the misfortune to fall under the influence of a hamster.

BTW: We don’t want to come over as ‘holier-than-thou-our-cause-is-more-important-than-your-cause’. (I know for a fact many exes are involved in all sorts of humanitarian projects but prefer not to mention them here.) And yes, for so many exes, especially waverers and recent exes, the issues discussed here are critical at a personal level and vital for sorting out people’s heads and healing bruised emotions – and until those are dealt with they aren’t going to be in much of a position to look beyond those issues, hence the importance of both EPO and the forum.

Still here, even when not here...;)

Love, Nige and Moley
[ Amnesty Internatinal ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:33:45 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Thanks for dropping a line
Message:
Very nice to hear from both of you.

Well, I'm sure the skills you polished from your participation at the EPO bootcamp will be valuable to any service-of-the-heart you endeavour. It was a real pleasure reading your posts. Your integrity
is indominatable.

Stay well and let us know how things are going with AI.

Moley, you have my email. Email me Anytime!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:36:37 (EDT)
From: SF (selene)
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: hi to both of you
Message:
It was great to read your posts. You both hold a place in my heart.
I have been exploring other websites not cult related , and away from the glaring eyes.
Life is short we need to find something that we feel makes our life worthwhile and hopefully helps others as well.
I won't elaborate here lest I be followed. But trust I am not finding another leader!
Just good to hear from you. A big hug,
Selene
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:21:11 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Hi Nigel and Moley
Message:
Hi you two. Are you living together in sin now?

Glad to hear you are devoting time to Amnesty. It is a wonderful organization that really does make a difference in peoples' lives all over the world. Devoting time to an organization like that puts one's priorities in perspective, doesn't it?

I thought you were going to show up on our doorstep this summer....

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:08:31 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: We will repost many of your gems over time
Message:
You can of course stop in whenever you have a pub visit and nowhere to
be creative afterwards.
Stop in and bring your new subjects with you.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:16:49 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Best 2 U Moley/Nige :) (nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:36 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: You mean you two actually got a life?
Message:
Thanks for checking in you two. It just proves that we're not all 'loosers' and some of us actually can move on and get a life as premies are so fond of suggesting. Hell, I took a year off from lurking once and built my own house so I know it's possible.

But really, glad to have you drop in and I for one hope you find some time to contribute. And if you happen to see Larkin lurkin' anywhere, please ask him for an autograph for me - the songs are fab and a constant source of humor.

Richard who was Postie but now I'm found

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:40 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Re: Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D!
Message:
If you read my intro at the top you'll see that your posts typify what I mentioned about ''your current realisations today will be of great interest to the people here, so please feel free to speak''.

I don't think being an ex-premie is a cause. If so it would be a negative one, wouldn't it. Promoting clearer understanding about what's happened and enjoying communication with people from our shared past - that is a natural by-product of having left Maharaji's influence.

Good luck to you also. Amnesty Internatinal has a lot of cleaning up to do in the world. They'll always need people like you for their worthy cause.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:14:40 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: BTW: ckeck your mailbox.. nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:16:44 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dave
Subject: Re: 'cause'
Message:
Thanks, Dave. (We weren't actually signing-off as such - just trying to point out that if we seem to have disappeared it has nothing to do with any symbolic boycotting of the forum or whatever.)

BTW: I realise exes disagree over whether EPO is a 'cause' or not. But if you think about Amnesty's basic approach to human rights and methods employed, it isn't that different from anything going on here, although it is on a very different scale. Both involve sharing information with the largest possible audience regarding the harm caused by people with power over others, hence reducing the risk of future occurences. But cause, or no cause the forum will continue to provide a precious point of contact for ever-increasing numbers, that is for sure. I think it is safe hands - but you might find a growing demand for very explicit guidelines, if you want to keep the place tidy and civilised without enraging posters affected by any interventions you have to make (speaking strictly from experience ;)

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:08:04 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Good to hear trom you.
Message:
Thank you for putting all this into a greater perspective. 'Life' in its beauties and terrors is so much more vivid and urgent than what the cult-deadened are comfortable to acknowledge.

It's a little too easy to skip around the world mindlessly trilling 'I know who the Lord is, I know who the Lord is, nyah nyah nyah', leaving the poor schmucks with their miserable karmas to fend for themselves. Such is the arrogance of the cult mindset, so it appears to me.

Anyway, thanks again for expressing the larger issues of which we all as humans -- forget the pewk, premie or ex labels -- should be concerned.

Best,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:13:04 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Carl
Subject: Thanks, well said...
Message:
Ha-ha - loved that line 'It's a little too easy to skip around the world mindlessly trilling 'I know who the Lord is, I know who the Lord is, nyah nyah nyah', leaving the poor schmucks with their miserable karmas to fend for themselves.'

Couldn't agree more, Carl. And those inevitable references to 'karma' which permeate hindu-based and new-age belief systems are for me the ultimate kop-out when it comes to being aware of things going on in the world, or as an excuse for a loathsome, smug complacency amongst those who consider themselves spiritually enlightened or materially blessed for past-life achievements. (Though I suspect as premies we all allowed ourselves to indulge in such thoughts to some extent...?)

Best to you too, Carl.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:34:14 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: To all the folks who posted above
Message:
A big thanks for your lovely messages. It'll be hard to stay away for too long with you guys around. xxx
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:05:08 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: To all the folks who posted above
Message:
I do hope you will bring your internet finds here or to the anything goes forum.
DOnt fergit, we are your avid readers!

WHy should you not take your readers with you as you explore more of this world?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:31:50 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please read this
Message:
Please read the forum help page which is linked on the blue rectangle. There are things there which you need to know.

I'm the webmaster. I have put this place online. I do not necessarily agree with all the opinions voiced here but I do believe in free speech which is why this forum is here.

I am against illegal activities being promoted here and will inform any relevant authorities should this arise. I hope that's made things clear.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:13:52 (EDT)
From: Doesn't open another window
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: Please read this
Message:
on any of my computers (only 2 of them).
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:46:57 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Doesn't open another window
Subject: OK try it now and
Message:
tell me if it's opening in a new window. I've changed the HTML. I may have done it wrong before since I was in a hurry.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:18:36 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Don't click that link
Message:
I hate that type of link where you can't go back to the previous page, or stop loading it !!!!! That's a real hassle ..... Why do so many websites do this ?
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:43:11 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It should open a new browser window
Message:
I don't know why it doesn't on your computer. Anyone else have this problem?
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:46:55 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: It should open a new browser window
Message:
Worked fine for me:-) And yes it did open a new browser window.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:14:22 (EDT)
From: ????
Email: None
To: All
Subject: can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT)
Message:
naaaaa
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:10:22 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ????
Subject: sure but we look for those we know first. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:41:13 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ????
Subject: No, from now on it's got to be '????' (nt)
Message:
naaaaa


---

naaaa na na na naaaa na na na naaaa na na na, na na na, na na naaaaa,

'you know how to pony, (oh yeah)
pony maloney, (shoo shoo)
mashed potato...' etc

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:26 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: ????
Subject: Re: can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT)
Message:
Personally, I couldn't care less who you are or what name you use but it becomes pointless if you keep on changing it since then nobody knows who you are.

I'm not your father or your guru and you can make some decisions yourself now.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:33:01 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Amesterdam is Bjorn Again
Message:
Take my word for it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:12 (EDT)
From: Paris
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: So what?
Message:
Your word si not worth a lot.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:38 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Paris
Subject: Re: So what?
Message:
Your word si not worth a lot.


---

Perhaps not. But my currency is not the issue. Bjorn's is. He has been asked repeatedly not to post on the Ex-premie forum, for some very good reasons.

He has upset many people here with his persistent line of questioning, and I felt duty bound to warn those people that he is back under yet another alias.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:24:22 (EDT)
From: Paris
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: So what?
Message:
What is wrong about 'persistent line of questioning'?

Isn't this a new forum where there is no censorship and no one is banned? And outing shouldn't happen?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:44:38 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Paris
Subject: More Bjorn/Bongo/Paris, etc.
Message:
Way asks:

Bongo,

You said last week that you would soon be making some sort of revealing explanation about yourself. So, how about it?

Bjorn replies:

That was my intention, but monday I had a bad dream. Not a nightmare but it was like a long story. I dreamt one of the exes, (not one of my favorites) came after me and my family and tried to kill us. He did not succeed, but it was prety weird.

So this far I've got second thoughts about that.

woo woo !!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:33:18 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: and Klown... ?
Message:
... shows an interesting writing style. It combines half-baked legalisms and a partisan attitude when it comes to equality of treatment as between cultists and regular folk.


What can it mean?
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:51:13 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: FA: Bug in software?
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

did I notice you change your name here?
I noticed that previewing message here changes the text when posted. Actually, a lot. Is this fixable?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:20:58 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: FA: Bug in software??
Message:
While I am keeping an eye on this place, I'll just use plain Dave which is what everybody else calls me. I'll check on this text change but I think you may be refering to the fact that line spaces don't show on the preview although they come back again once the message is posted.

Let's have a look.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:53 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Dave
Subject: Looks OK to me
Message:
Read the help section, linked on the blue rectangle.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:18:26 (EDT)
From: Jeffrey Donner's post
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:
Friends --
I’ve been lurking for several months. In mid-March, my much older and much uglier bro, Michael Donner, alerted me that an interesting discussion was underway in Forum 5. I’ve been fascinated since.

I’m a Catholic priest, pastor of a parish at a state university, studying anthropology. I’m most interested in how religions evolve. My chief interest is in Catholicism which is attempting a significant in-house transformation. I would never have imagined that listening to you guys would be all that useful to my own project -- I got reading because Mike’s life has been so, ahem, interesting. But I got hooked -- especially by people trying to sift out some zone of comfort between being a group and being individuals. I can’t imagine a topic which better defines the difficulties of modern life. And you have faced it in spades with the explosion over Jim.

I just wanted to offer the following metaphor from history as a lens you might use to get another slant on what’s been going on in Forum 5. I am extremely grateful to you for the sharing of your lives that has gone on here, tough as it has been. I send this metaphor as a token of my appreciation and hope it helps a little in the planning underway for forum 6.

One of the issues illuminated by the flap in forum 5 is part of the history between Catholics and Protestants. Here's the metaphor: in the 16th c., the Catholic hierarchy is Maharaji, Luther et al are the ex-premies. What has happened to the Protestants is that once badly burned by a religious bully drunk with his own power, they have become extremely, almost genetically, on alert for anything that smacks of 'Catholicism'. When 'Catholicism' rears any of its old signs in a Protestant group, a part of the group gets allergic and splits. Protestantism continues today to split into smaller and smaller pieces. Lesson: one of the really touchy, and most interesting, issues in religion is the complex relationship between the individual and the group. Brian says his actions were in large part in defense of his individual rights to express himself without being bullied by a flame-thrower, but gets accused by the other libertarians of selling out the group. Jim, the loudest of the libertarians, wants a cohesive group with a coherent point of view. He even seems to want to speak for the group. Ironies are flying in every direction.

So here's an issue worth watching, I think: the world's experience of Catholicism through the 19th c. has spawned a reaction of separatism and splintering in the religious world in defense of the individual. That reaction was a very important move for human beings to make. That splintering, though, has led to a loss of the experience of transcendence that comes with belonging to something/someone bigger than the self. So move two has been the recognition of alienation and the destruction to the human spirit from gross individualism. The question, then, is: what's move three? I think the ex-premies are trying to figure that out at the moment, working out the new game plan about the big issue, group vs individualism, through the details of how to set up forum 6.

If the metaphor is useful, some questions seem to follow. Isn’t part of the issue you’re facing the degree to which the exes want to imagine being a group? And isn’t part of THAT issue the negotiation of how to deal with your personal histories while at the same time trying to offer the benefit of your COMMON experience (which defines you as a group) with those who are still stuck in a cult? By what method, in what style of personal sharing, do you clarify your own anger and disenchantment and how do you translate what you’ve learned about THAT for the sake of those who are still in the cult? I think you’re trying to balance the benefits of owning your own lives against the dangers of collapsing into a gross individualism, and trying to sell that balance to people who think they have experienced the joys of belonging to a group and are not aware of the degree to which they have sold their souls as a guard against the alienation of modern life. That’s a very tricky little proposition to pull off. But it is extremely important, I think, for people to try it, because all over the planet today people are caught between the alienation of modern individualism and the offer of a safety net from every sort of fundamentalism. Any group, and every group, which takes a step in the healing of this issue in the world is a grace given from the future for everyone.

With all my heart, then, I thank you and I wish you the very best.
Jeff Donner

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:54:01 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner's post
Subject: Jeff, you comin back?....nt
Message:
zzz
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:25 (EDT)
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Jeff, you comin back?....nt
Message:
Never far away, Deborah, but busy with my own job and life.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:18 (EDT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Event in WORCESTER , MASS
Message:
Word around here is that Maharaji got cold feet after the debacle in France. Apparently, a media blitz was being prepared for him. E-mails went out to local media companies and the city was inundated with flyers actually inviting everyone to come and see the Great Guru Maharaj ji-Lord of the Universe. Local churches had been e-mailed and told that the Lord was coming and that they were invited to come and see him. Good work over there in the great Northeast. We'll have to give it a try out here.

ps. The clockmaster still wants to know about the plant.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:56:18 (EDT)
From: Yeah, right
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Utter Bullshit
Message:
Word must in your dreams. There was no event planned in that area. And since you lot can't agree on jack shit without having a big dirty laundry session, do you REALLY believe that this 'campaign' would have gone off without being noticed? Especially when the Special Canadian Ex Premie UFO Squad can't keep her mouth shut for more than a minute without having an embolysm?

Speaking of that stuff, how's your special EX premie leader's brain cancer? Are they going to operate or let him sink into dementia? Ooops, kitty out of the bag on that?

But since making phone calls and e-mails is what you're after...you know there's a lot of interesting things about a lot of you guys, too, sweetie...lots of offices, professional societies, parent-teacher associations...OH YEAH...is that the game you wanna play? Think hard....think very hard before you commit all the EX premies to this kind of war, sweetie...

The only thing you and a 'mole' have in common is you live in the dark.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:11:48 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: Speaking of utter bullshit, Yeah, right
Message:
Word must in your dreams. There was no event planned in that area. And since you lot can't agree on jack shit without having a big dirty laundry session, do you REALLY believe that this 'campaign' would have gone off without being noticed? Especially when the Special Canadian Ex Premie UFO Squad can't keep her mouth shut for more than a minute without having an embolysm?

Speaking of that stuff, how's your special EX premie leader's brain cancer? Are they going to operate or let him sink into dementia? Ooops, kitty out of the bag on that?

But since making phone calls and e-mails is what you're after...you know there's a lot of interesting things about a lot of you guys, too, sweetie...lots of offices, professional societies, parent-teacher associations...OH YEAH...is that the game you wanna play? Think hard....think very hard before you commit all the EX premies to this kind of war, sweetie...

The only thing you and a 'mole' have in common is you live in the dark.


---

Your post speaks VOLUMES about Rawat and his premies, and his mission to bring peace into people's lives. Keep up the great work!! You should contact 'he whose name cannot be spoken here', EV's PR wizard, Jean Marie Bonthous, who is great need of synchronized spokespeople at the moment. You would be perfect!

So did you find out YET that Worcester WAS on Rawat's schedule? If not, you just aren't synchronized enough to 'need to know'. You might want to try increasing your contributions.

I ask again, where is the love, big-mouth?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:26:49 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: Sorry, yeah, right
Message:
Sorry to be the one to tell you, my dear premie, but Worcester, Ma. WAS on Rawat's summer schedule. If you were synchronized enough to be on EV's First Class e-mail system, you would have known that, since it had been discussed for there for months, until Mr. Rawat got scared.

By the way, where's the love?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:24:25 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: relax Mr Yeah,
Message:
the malibu mole post is not sensible and I doubt it IS the malibu mole.
The ideas listed are mostly lame, and no ex's are needed at any
premie events. Contacting media is not necessary either.
Why distract all the public from thier own lives to look at this?

Yes, outreach WILL happen, but with grace, and style and kindness.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:29:38 (EDT)
From: Way's post on talking
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: to a premie. Not a war.
Message:
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My own conversation with a 'premie'
Message:
Joe,
This is sad, and a little eerie. In the last two months I had an email exchange with a long-time premie friend of mine. He is aware of all the info on this site. He attended the Miami event last Spring. When I asked him to explain to me his position, he couldn't really do it. He said that he cannot possibly judge the Master because he couldn't know what a Master does or should do. He said that he weeps sometimes because of his ignorance.

When I was around this guy in the 70's, he was a perfectly normal human being. But now he can't trust himself and denigrates himself exactly the way that Maharaji denigrates people. I asked him to look at the effect the supposed perfect Knowledge is having on him. It's supposed to be a good thing, but it doesn't really help people grow into themselves at all.

On ELK now there is a premie expression in which a premie talks about his own mind as if it were an abscessed tooth. And of course the way to get rid of this tooth is to go see Rawat at his events. As you say, Joe, Rawat turns people into their own worst enemies!!!

God, this is awful.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT)
From: Wolfie's post on a talk
Email: None
To: Way's post on talking
Subject: with a premie
Message:
I only talked about some few funny things, mostly like Mr. and Mrs. Ravat going to Dr. Kasarola to check their marriageproblems. Sorry, one premie I know since 10 years, got so confused by this little human story, that she was crying at night in her hotelroom because she could not handle that information
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:32:59 (EDT)
From: And Deborah's post on the
Email: None
To: Way's post on talking
Subject: subject, again, Not a war.
Message:
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Conversation with a 'friend'
Message:
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the post. I'm trying to find some good buddies of mine from the old days. I don't know if they're still with M because I was away from prem circuit for over decade.

This was also good for me to read, because when I read the posts of the premies who post here (flaming and contributing nothing) to the discussion, I think 'This is not what my friends would do'.

At least this person was able to answer to question honestly. And I'm also touched that the 'humanness' and 'friendship' did not have to be compromised.

Very encouraging. Nice posts today! Ah! A new Dawn.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:15:09 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: A threat?
Message:
My oh my. The only person (uh god?) that has been exposed on here is the former Lord of the Universe turned teacher. Are you saying you will go after ex's?
I tend to look at M's cult as a silly has been but now you are talking the tactics of Scientology. You wish.
And how do you plan this smear campaign? leaflets? Calls to supervisors? Let's hear it oh brave one who can't even post a FAKE name. Christ not even a Krusty name.
Who will be your lawyer or need I ask?
I wish M had gone to Worcester. I had told my numerous Catholic cousins and third cousins and all their friends to attend. Worcester is a rough city. Would have been fun.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:25 (EDT)
From: Yeah right
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: So...do you?
Message:
So, do you or do you not disavow disruption, interference and harrassment? JHB didn't have the balls to answer this, perhaps he is affraid to suffer the wrath your shock troops inflicted on Katie and Brian, huh?

Answer the question: are you interested in expression, or are you interested in street fighting? Have Deborah and 'Malibu Mole' already answered the question for you?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 01:52:09 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Yeah right
Subject: What's this about my balls?
Message:
Hey, Yeah Right,

In case you've been asleep, I'm not the FA here. But if you want my personal opinion, I support any legal means to publicise Maharaji and his cult, which is why I volunteered to run the EPO website. I am very against any illegal activity. Hope this clears up my testicular position (and come on, do you think banning Jim from forum 5 didn't require balls?!)

This is John Brauns, now who exactly am a talking to?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:40:48 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls?
Message:
JHB,

This site ain't worth Dick without Jim.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:52:22 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls?
Message:
Dog,

To the best of my knowledge (I've retired from FAing) Jim is not banned from this forum. But to say this forum is not worth anything without him is to raise him on a pedestal, and to insult all the other contributors. Can you justify this?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:46:41 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls?
Message:
Dog,

To the best of my knowledge (I've retired from FAing) Jim is not banned from this forum. But to say this forum is not worth anything without him is to raise him on a pedestal, and to insult all the other contributors. Can you justify this?

John.


---

John,

Jim is one of the main contributors here and even though we differ on many things IMO he is one of the best. To say that my saying this is an insult all other contributors here is 'mind' at its worst.

That's like my saying, 'John I really like the shirt you are wearing today,' and you take this to mean 'I don't like the shirt you were wearing yesterday.'

It is thinking like this that led me to Knowledge in the first place. Holy Name is the only safe and sane place to be.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:45:12 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Shirts? - Crap analogy, Dep..
Message:
Sure - liking yesterday's shirt doesn't necessitate despising today's upper garment, but you only wear one shirt at a time. Not so forum posters. You can wear dozens every day.

If there were two forums, say, one where only Jim posted and another where everyone else except Jim posted, which would you most visit? The former one-to-one experience you could simulate by emailing Jim (you know each other, right?). I have no idea whether he would engage in such a dialogue, but it would pretty soon wear thin, I think.

Like anyone else here, Jim's impact came from the interpersonal dynamics of his conversations with many people - you included. Dismiss the rest of us as 'not worth dick' and you are dismissing yourself in similar terms.

Jim assembled ideas into nicely-turned sentences and posted them. He was damned good at it, but not supernaturally so. It just takes practice and a measure of critical thinking. Try it. Maybe in due course, people will click first on every 'Dep' thread that appears...

BTW: What exactly are you safe from in 'Holy Name'?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:53:04 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls??
Message:
Dog,

Your argument is crap - I agree Jim is a wonderful contributor to these forums (when he isn't on one of his insane witchhunts, probably the best), but you said that without him this forum is worthless. This is saying that all the other posters' contributions are worthless. How else can what you said be interpreted? That is insulting.

Now, maybe you didn't mean it. Maybe you meant the forum is a little less without Jim. Then I would have to agree.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:25:18 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: OK the forum is a little less without Jim (nt) [nt]
Message:
adf
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:57:45 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yeah right
Subject: It's cooler than that.
Message:
It is only education.
Information.
And having available assistance for those that want it.
Provided in a way you havent guessed, dont know yet, and dont need to
worry about.

'Disruption and harrassment and interference' you are worried about.
Dont worry any more, I know what is comeing and it aint that.
The only thing that will be a problem, if it is for some, is just
the facts.

Done in the style only available from Sir Davids Luv Club.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:00:13 (EDT)
From: bill I propose a name for
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: this forum, Sir David's Luv Club
Message:
dfsgfdsfadf
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:49:56 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Yeah right
Subject: I speak for myself
Message:
and, in general, do not engage in prolonged discussions with people who will not identify themselves here. Especially when they post as you just did.

disavow - To disclaim knowledge of, responsibility for, or association with.

My 'participation' :) has been limited to discussion on these pages. If you consider that to fit the above definition so be it. I don't.

I'll talk to you when I know who you are. I don't continue dialog with angry anons.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:13:02 (EDT)
From: Yeah
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: I speak --and cookies
Message:
Unless, of course, the 'anon' agrees with your battle plans?

By the way, how come this webite sends out cookies? How come the webmaster didn't tell anyone this? More tracking and tracing in preparation for your campaign of terror and harrassment?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:04:31 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Yeah
Subject: Re: I speak --and cookies
Message:
By the way, how come this webite sends out cookies? How come the webmaster didn't tell anyone this? More tracking and tracing in preparation for your campaign of terror and harrassment?

Here we see the 7th principle of the 'community con artist' at play:

7. All critics of me are sinners and have gone the world's way. (It's a feature of all con men to preemptively accuse their marks of what they themselves are doing, as a way to confuse the opponent.)

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:36:32 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Great post Joey ...
Message:
Where did you find these 'principles'? I'd like to read the rest!

Thanks,

Anna

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:58:13 (EDT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Yeah
Subject: Re: I speak --and cookies
Message:
Your browser type is: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)

If you stick to one alias you might have some credibility. Talking about credibility, have you checked Hotboard's postion re CGI scripts and cookies?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:23:37 (EDT)
From: You talking about aliases?
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: you stupid stupid person
Message:
YOU ARE NOT MK

MK USES A MACINTOSH

PISS OFF

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:55:34 (EDT)
From: So what ?
Email: None
To: You talking about aliases?
Subject: Re: you stupid stupid person
Message:
I don't use the same computer all the time, you know. You are maya, an illusion I've conjured to dance with.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:47:40 (EDT)
From: I don't care what crappy MSDOS
Email: None
To: So what ?
Subject: you're using. I said Stop using MK's handle
Message:
there's a connecting flight to Bhagdad from where you 'exist'
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:37:22 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: I don't care what crappy MSDOS
Subject: Re: yoyou has a posse ?
Message:
or is it you rich and pay gangstas? I and I not clear what you saying.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:01:58 (EDT)
From: So what ...
Email: None
To: I don't care what crappy MSDOS
Subject: David?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:24:51 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Yeah
Subject: if you agreed
Message:
You wouldn't be so angry now would you?
As for the cookies you'll have to ask someone who runs the place. I disavow any involvement it that.
cheers there is lightening here gotta log off.
Just meditate, watch a video. You will be fine.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:05:05 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To David A, it's a personal thing
Message:
I have to agree with Jim Sander that there are just some things about Maharaji that I could no longer get past. Plus, I was pretty miserable as a premie for quite some time before I left the cult. I only stayed because Maharaji said all sorts of shitty stuff would happen if I left, or stopped practicing, and because he convinced me of his insidious, destructive ideology, that all doubts and misery were due to my own mind and should not be listened to. [By the way David, I left Miami in October, 1980, I guess just a few months before you did.]

Anyhow, anticipating the response, I note that David A asked Jim Sander:

May I ask You a couplke questions?

Sure, although I know you didn't direct them to me.

1) did you ever feel love for M?

No, I can't say I ever did. I really WANTED to, and heard repeatedly from many other people that they did, but since I never even met the guy, that is kind of a ridiculous idea. But I really did want to, I actually prayed for years for that, but I can't say it ever happened.

2) do you still practice K?

No. I practiced as instructed for about 10 years, but I no longer do. I found no difference in my level of happiness or satisfaction, capacity for love, between the period when I practiced knowledge and when I didn't. But when I dumped the Maharaji philosophy, I felt a whole lot better than when I was a premie. Life just kind of opened up and I felt a lot freer and happier.

3) What, exactly, is the 'other side' you have so much distaste for?

I didn't know about Maharaji's drinking, sexual transgressions and drug-taking until after I was no longer a premie. Since then, I have heard about them from a number of people, beginning about 14 years ago. His personal behavior does bother me, and it is relevent, since he is a 'master' and not just a politician or college professor.

But that isn't the behavior that bothers me the most. I'm most bothered by Maharaji's inability to accept responsibility or blame for anything whatsoever, and to engage in, or allow his organization to engage in, rank revisionism and lies about what actually went on in the 70s and 80s, what Maharaji's claims actually were, and waht he actually preached. I was around then; it was a significant part of my life, and I resent the cover-up. I also resent wasting 10 years in his ashram poor and celibate only to find out he really didn't give a crap about us one way or the other.

4) what are the 'actions and attitudes' you have PERSONALLY witnessed that have caused your loss of respect? .

Well, I have personally witnessed Maharaji's failure to acknowledge publicly that a lot of people got hurt by his claims to be the incarnation of God in the 70s and 80s, and seen his lies about that to this day. That's the main one.

I also witnessed Maharaji being very cruel to people on a few occasions that caused me to question the kind of 'loving' person he actually was. I didn't know him personally, so I can't comment on seeing his personal life, which is true of 99% of people who are, or have been, premies, by the way. To suggest that a personal relationship with Maharaji somehow mitigates against all that is ridiculous.

I always did have problems with his obscene wealth, but I was able to rationalize that when I was a premie, because I believed he was God and entitled to whatever he got.

I also categorize as abuse by Maharaji, some of his harrangues to us about surrendering our lives, the threats about what would happen if we stopped practicing or left the ashram, or if we got married, etc. He was particularly abusive at some of the ashram meetings.

I guess that's enough to get started.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:42:07 (EDT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It is a personal thing indeed
Message:
Joe, may I ask you a question. If you never loved Maharaji, and you didn’t really experience anything of note (I deduce this because you noticed no difference after stopping practicing), I’m curious to know why you committed so much of yourself over that 10 year period? I mean, the two primary reasons why a premie today would say they follow Maharaji -- even in light of all the negative stuff you guys are kicking around –- is they have a genuine love of Maharaji and/or a wonderful experience of practicing K. If in fact you didn’t have either, why on earth would you commit yourself to the degree you did for 10 years of your life? Straight fear and coersion?
***
***
Reading your post I can truly understand why you felt a lot better after you left. And I’m sure you are not alone. But can you see that people who DID develop a love for Maharaji and/or for the practice of Knowledge probably see things differently than you? Could that not help explain our differences? And are you able to except that premies have a different response based on these significantly different perspectives. I don't mean this to be confrontive, just wondering.
***
***
Richard
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:05:16 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: It's not so complicated
Message:
. If you never loved Maharaji, and you didn’t really experience anything of note (I deduce this because you noticed no difference after stopping practicing), I’m curious to know why you committed so much of yourself over that 10 year period?

I don't believe I ever said I 'didn't experience anything of note.' I very much wanted it to be true, and I believed, and I had faith, devotion, and that got me high at certain points. Maharaji was the object of that, but he had otherwise absolutely nothing to do with it. So, I stayed because I believed. This isn't unusual, you know. People remain monks and nuns, people stay committed to causes, even though they aren't really happy doing it because they believe in it.

PLUS, Maharaji, who I believed in, said that doubt wasn't allowed, in fact he had a commandment against it. So, if you don't allow yourself to doubt, and always discount it when you do, how do you even get objective enough to know you are unhappy and want to leave? Plus, I also believed him when he sold us that pile of crap about our minds being evil and out to get us. In fact, when I received knowledge, I immediately afterwards was given a letter signed by Maharaji himself saying that now that I had received knowledge that my mind was going to start bothering me and that I shouldn't listen to it, rather I should have faith in Maharaji and just practice knowledge.

Those are the reasons. Also, I was really young when I got involved in the cult. Plus, I think the longer you are in, it gets harder to question it, aside from the programming of the cult not to doubt, because it means that you have to question the entire purpose of your life and that's very hard. It's easier sometimes just to continue believing rather than really question, really open up to the possibility that it is all bosh. It's scary to do that, and that's why I have a lot of admiration for ex-premies who have done that, because I know how difficult it can be. It's completely worth it, though, because it's better to know the truth, be true to yourself, rather than carry on with the Maharaji security blanket.

I mean, the two primary reasons why a premie today would say they follow Maharaji -- even in light of all the negative stuff you guys are kicking around –- is they have a genuine love of Maharaji and/or a wonderful experience of practicing K. If in fact you didn’t have either, why on earth would you commit yourself to the degree you did for 10 years of your life? Straight fear and coersion?

Yes, that is the resvised version of being a premie today, as opposed to what it used to be. It was a real bait and switch. I would also have said I was having a great experience, but in addition, which I don't think premies say anymore because Maharaji has quietly dropped it from his claims, is that I would have said that the savior was on the planet and was bringing peace to the world, and I wanted to be a part of it, even if it wasn't always pleasant, even if I was too small and ignorant to understand what he was actually doing, what his 'divine plan' was, but I wanted to dedicate my life to that and serve him. Now, Maharaji has dropped all those claims, so I guess premies wouldn't say that anymore.

But in a cult, you don't just 'leave' because you are 'unhappy.' Of course you don't. We were indoctrinated by Maharaji to believe it didn't matter whether you were happy or unhappy, the point was that the purpose of your life was to devote your life to Maharaji (insert endless stupid, Hindu stories about people waiting for years cleaning their houses everyday, just waiting for on minute when the Perfect Master stops by, or enjoying being beaten by the master ,etc.)

Somehow, I think you either weren't around, or you have repressed all that.

Unless you know Maharaji personally, I do not believe what you feel for him is 'love.' Sorry, I just think that's delusion.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:55:26 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Richard II
Subject: Re: It is a personal thing indeed
Message:
Most of us had no real contact with God Incarnate. But, imagining we did, many of us had Divine Experiences. Just as Christians do, who imagine they have a personal connection with God.

Not that imagination is a bad thing.

I loved M for a few years, as my doorway to the Infinite. And it was good, for me. Unfortunately, Prem Pal is a fucking phony. He still pretends to be a Master. That's not good. On the spiritual path, honesty is very important. And I don't know how anyone can claim that Guru Maharaji is honest.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:27:06 (EDT)
From: Selene / SF
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Off topic and annoyed
Message:
This is the last time I'll mention this, since I think the SC person who is now using Selena likes attention and I don't want to oblige.
Once again I am not that SC person who posts
on Lifes Great. If he/she only knew!! I have been given inner agya to be Selene since 1998!!
I have just been asked for the 3rd time if I am SC. NO I AM NOT and don't want to be associated with his/her posts.
No point in asking CD to do anything about it so I'll use SF on here and AG. Imitation may be flattery but it is embarrassing in this case. I will not post over there. EVER! I leave that to kinder gentle ex's like Gerry (grin) so if you see Selena over there please it is not me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:10 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Selene / SF
Subject: Re: Off topic and chuckling
Message:
Oh Moon Goddess please email me at my new hotmail account. I can't access my old yahoo account and cannot email you. Just ask David Whitla nicely to stick with impersonating one female, ''Marolyn.'' I'm sure he will kick up a fuss because Selena Crumpet is a beloved creation of his. But David really is an obliging fellow.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:00:41 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ok will email
Message:
Sigh. Why am I not surprised to find out who SC is?
What's this about retiring? As long as we have people coming here to apologize for googoo we need people to speak up. And I get so pissed I have to limit my involvement lest I ruin the 'Luv Club' image
b)
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:46:16 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Why am I not surprised to find out who SC is?
Message:
Because there are only 8 writers who say anything worthwhile on any of these forums.

And you my dear are certainly not one of them.

Isn't Anything Goes more your scene? Back you go...

SHOO!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:14:19 (EDT)
From: Selene/ SF
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: and a cheery good morning to you
Message:
Hola SC, Cerise, Catweasel, Marolyn
You may try to chase me off but I would not do same to you.
The more representatives of Maharajis Knowledge and teachings people read here, the better.
SF
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:30:25 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Selene/ SF
Subject: yea and
Message:
The more snide little jibes you make behind people's backs the more you get your fat ass kicked

Ok with me

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:34:05 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: my ass isn't fat
Message:
Are you looking at a picture of your guru by any chance?
Rant on. You are now on my official blocking software.
Go beat up on somene else, I'm sure you are capable of it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:43:11 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: How sweet the sound
Message:
Of the huge door
of a dark, dingy, damp dungeon
crashing shut.

With the right person the other side of it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:38:01 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: is that bliss not working for you ?
Message:
I and I says there is other ways of doing the techniks. Is good to find what works for you.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Maharaji TV Broadcast
Message:
Monmot wrote a great post over on the old forum about Maharaji's satellite broadcast. Apparenly, in New York, this was available on cable access. Anyhow, Monmot had the stomach to watch the whole thing, and her comments are insightful:

I watched one in its entirety last week, although it took a little doing on my part to make myself sit there. First off, he looked like Chairman Mao (Maoraji?). After I got over that one, I observed his coy cues, smiles and innuendoes and found myself fascinated by the interplay between M and his audience. Maharaji plays them like a world class Stradivarius, evoking happy clapping, laughter, together with a nice range of sighs and knowing chuckles.

As for the content of his speech, we're talking empty calories. Cheez Whiz has more meaning. It's like showing someone the light by talking about the absence of light. M doesn't present, or represent, the light, other than to talk about where and what it is NOT. He blabbed on about how coffee is now trendy, but that the breath is never trendy and that the breath never shows up on 'best of' lists. A fabulous non-sequitur, if I may say so myself. I found most of what he had to say to be fairly negative. He surely is the Master of Negative Space, using absence as proof of presence.

Basically, my overall impression is that M's talks paint premies into an emotional and psychological corner, somehow making them feel that that compression of space and time, that compression of who they really are, and his emphasis on their fatal ignorance, masquerades as an experience of who they really are, when in fact it's really an experience of who they really aren't, and IMO is an experience of smallness, rather than one of spiritual expansion. I know this sounds like a mindfuck, but promoting self-denigration, rigidity and denial under the rubric of spirituality and the 'joy of having a Master' is just that.

I couldn't believe I spent ten years doing that.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:28 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great post !
Message:
Thanks Joe for bringing this over and to Monmot for her writing it.

IMO, the last paragraph is a keeper.

Basically, my overall impression is that M's talks paint premies into an emotional and psychological corner, somehow making them feel that that compression of space and time, that compression of who they really are, and his emphasis on their fatal ignorance, masquerades as an experience of who they really are, when in fact it's really an experience of who they really aren't, and IMO is an experience of smallness, rather than one of spiritual expansion. I know this sounds like a mindfuck, but promoting self-denigration, rigidity and denial under the rubric of spirituality and the 'joy of having a Master' is just that. (emphasis my own)

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:46:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Krusty! Read this one
Message:
Maybe you'll understand why we may not have to contact the station. New uninitiated viewers won't have a clue why the audience is so exstatic. It appears to take a preconceived mentality to digest his empty-say-nothing and pretend-he-did shtick!

But I'll encourage the media campaign, anyways.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:24:27 (EDT)
From: Krusty the Klown
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hey Deborah, read this one
Message:
Honey pie, check out the way your support group dishes you at Louella's place. You're a bigger joke than Sideshow Mel and Cheif Wiggum put together. Maybe it was the UFO thing that put you over the top.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:43:17 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Re: Hey honey pie
Message:
That's their post, not mine. That post speaks about them. People react like that when they don't have a strong voice. People with strong voices stir that shit up in people.

By the way, I have received plenty of support from exes, all of whom are highly respected here. I can't control how other people think and act or react. Do you see me worried over it.

Do you see real people posting that, no. Anonomice. I'm here doing my own thing.

Do you have support here, Krusty? Worried about the poor attorney in NY? Did he hire you to support him? Did he get fired? People like you inspire us to contact NY stations, etc.

Thanks for bringing that one up, by the way. I'll do a little homework in between plotting about glasser.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:49:00 (EDT)
From: me again-forgot to mention
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Krusty is a CLOWN with K
Message:
Thanks for making us laugh. You are a Clown with K. Keep practicing.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:56:56 (EDT)
From: Sebastion Cole
Email: None
To: me again-forgot to mention
Subject: yes, truth is funny Debutante
Message:
Particularly when it's about you, oh thorn without a Rose.

Is there a doctor in the house?

The patient's medication has worn OFF!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:11:46 (EDT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Sebastion Cole
Subject: Cowardly CAT!
Message:
Your browser type is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC)

Nice try CAT.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:53:16 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Forum 6
Message:
I'm already tired of Forum 6. When's Forum 7 going to come online? Anybody know?
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:09:15 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Make your own or ...
Message:
... or enjoy this one. I hope you're joking! Goodness knows we had enough griping to drive the last FA and webmasters away.

Double and tripple sheesh! I love you but you're whining again!

--f

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:28:21 (EDT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Songbook online
Message:
For those with nothing better to do with their sad and sin-blackened lives...

The complete Larkin collection now has a permanent presence on the web. All 47 (count 'em) pieces of inconsequential doggerel penned over four years are listed. Those without proper links exist somewhere in the FV archive, but the Search Engine is failing to pick them up...

If anyone can track them down, let me know. Thanx.
[ The Larkin Collection ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:14:26 (EDT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Larkin
Subject: Experment added to site
Message:
Thanks for kind words below...

I have added the 'Real' M / 'Fake' M experiment' to the page...
>
'I have long been of the belief that Maharaji has no powers (‘omnisicient, omnipotent, omnipresent’), no special ‘connection’ with the ‘hearts’ of his devotees, no special insight into life, the universe or anything else. Nor does he have any special gift for public speaking, for extemporising his metaphysical bon mots and banal analogies – to the extent that, if you removed the conditioned responses elicited by the sound of his voice and his ‘golden glowing face’, premies would be incapable of even recognising their master’s ‘voice’ from the words alone.

Quite simply, for a devotee it doesn’t even matter what he says. The ‘perfection’ they find in his words is their own projection. Any one of them could, with practise, concoct their own satsang.

Try this:

I recently came up with an on-line experiment, the findings of which have so far supported this argument. Even after three decades of listening to Prem Rawat, premies lack the discernment to spot the real thing. What does that say about the alarming similarity between ‘real’ and ‘fake’, I wonder...?'

So can you tell a real Master from a fake Master (ie. me)?
[ Experiment on-line... ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:53:38 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Thank you, thank you
Message:
I've bookmarked it for some chuckles.

bests, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:21:11 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Many thanks Larkin
Message:
Your jolly jottings promise many hours of innocent pleasure for all the family.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:53:31 (EDT)
From: Mr D
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Larkin
Subject: Re: Songbook online
Message:
The search engine is overstretched. It's only a free one and if I add more pages to the search index, others are missed out.

Your site is now in the Hall of Fame (follow link above).
[ Your site is linked here ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 12:22:19 (EDT)
From: mayo
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I have a confession
Message:
I am not a PAM or a PWK or an ex-PAM or an ex-PWK or an UnPAM or an UnPWK or a Premie, Ex-Premie, Un-Premie or Non-Premie. I am not even an Ex-Aspirant. I am a POM and a Mini Minor fan. I want to start a new Mini, on-line fan club, that I could quickly take to an IPO on the Nasdaq.

I thought to myself what kind of gullible idiots can I find to join my fan club quickly so I can make millions off an IPO. I did some market research and it seemed that the best kind of idiots to find would be the kind who would join a cult run by a young kid who insisted that he was god, who liked owning aeroplanes and gold watches and who insisted that thousands of adults suck on his ten toes on a regular basis in order to experience the meaning of life.

I thought to myself 'this is so improbable, no-one is that idiotic' but I searched google using the words toe, suck and orgasm and Fergie came up 1203 times out of 1204. The 1204th site was this forum.

Now, having read your messages, I realise that you are all too zany for a Mini Minor fan club IPO but I have been moved by your journeys and I feel guilty for misrepresenting myself in various links below.As a token of my sincerity for your plight, I would like to offer you a free membership of my new website sexpremie.org. This site has the hottest PAMs, PWKs, POMs, PUGs and PEGs. All have shown hard core commitment to the cause, no amateurs, no aspirants and no hourly charges.

Your brother
in law (and order)

MR m Naise

PS. I am looking for a good webmaster and FA. In the unlikely event that you come across one or two of these who have recently been rendered unemployed, please ask them to contact me, especially if they are prepared to work for nothing. wink wink.

PPS. If your name is Jim don't bother, I have a weak heart.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:49:47 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: mayo
Subject: Don't give up the day job Naise.
Message:
Unless you can fix the bug in your computer that drops the punch-lines off your jokes.

Anth, you had to be there really.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:20:36 (EDT)
From: mayo
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey nutty knight
Message:
I spent a whole hour composing pearls of wisdom to caste before you swine and when I hit post message, my words evaporated like the morning mist and money in Malibu. How dare you.

PS. As a precaution, copy messages before posting because if the software sends you back to your message to fix something, your message will no longer be there.

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