Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 13, 2001 To: Jul 20, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


David Andersen -:- See you guys later.... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:53:44 (EDT)
__ bill -:- The story of David A's late 70's music tape -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:56:01 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: See you guys later.... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:51:24 (EDT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Nice knowing you.Some A's+Q's -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:41 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- My answers to similar questions -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:13:43 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- A question for either JS or DA -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- My psychoanalysis of D.A. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:14:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: My psychoanalysis of D.A. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:43:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ JS -:- Yes Way, that's DA -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:36:16 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Bye to D.A. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:52 (EDT)

Sandy -:- visual health -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 02:20:32 (EDT)
__ Carlos -:- Are you the Sandy who was in the ashram -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:21:46 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Who else doesn't like this background colour??? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:50:56 (EDT)
__ __ Carl -:- Custard! Easy on eye, & for continuity w/ EPO [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:29 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:39:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- A word from a web expert -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- great link for web designers -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:24:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- Yes, Pat, and note also... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:16:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best - YES! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I thought you and I were not going to post anymore -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:34:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- I never said that, but you did (several times) -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:06:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:46:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHBB) -:- Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:03:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, I say it at least once a week -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:46:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Well if San Fran is cool and grey... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:07:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Latvian Date -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 07:47:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Herb Caen, the deceased bard -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Custard Custard ! Give us Custard!! nt -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:42:08 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Minty green - seriously -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Admin Assistant -:- Re: Minty green - seriously -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: Minty green - seriously -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:25:01 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Who else doesn't like this background colour? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:06:40 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Bring back the custard! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:13:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Yes, make View All the Default. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:33:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Collapse, edit, search YES [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:37:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cybercop DI 2 -:- check this out Cat and LG crew -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:42:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- the crew flounders, heh! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:49:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Is this wheat ?- it looks like mushroom from here -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:46:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dave -:- Re: Bring back the custard! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:42:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Black on gray? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:26:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- And since you asked -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:29:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, well maybe try this... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:18:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Custard my Arse ! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:52:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David -:- Lightened it now -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:57:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- EN -Lightened it now -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:24:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Re: Lightened it now -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:31:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I don't get blue writing -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:34:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- Neither do I -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:45:19 (EDT)

gerry -:- Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:52:39 (EDT)
__ sivan -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:18:58 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 01:35:28 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:22:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:23:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:00:12 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- mental ensalada, yes! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:20:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Addicted to Bliss -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:15:06 (EDT)

Abi -:- Dear EV Monitors -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:06:42 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:29:15 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:26:38 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:44:48 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Suggestion to all - and to Abi... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:44:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carlos -:- Don't risk making it tougher for Abi by -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:01:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:57:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:14:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Agreed, Nige -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:36:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Agreed, Nige and Francesca -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:54:08 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E. (Amsterdam) -:- Dear Abi -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:34:08 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Not so fast -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:59:14 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Dear Bjorn. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:16:27 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Fuck off Bjorn -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:36:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel Dettmers -:- Marianne, get real -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:57:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey, Mr anonymous. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:22:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- Yo Charles! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:19:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Not quite, sherlock -:- Re: Yo Charles! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:05:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- Whassup chuck? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:40:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ I agree -:- that totally sucks from a so called 'lawyer' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:50:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Prem Pal Jagdeo -:- Bjorn's got a Boner! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ David -:- Re: Marianne, get real -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Who the hell are you? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And who are you? Perhaps you are new here... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:18:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- This oerson is also probably Bjorne. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:41:26 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:32:08 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- speaking out as self-protectionprotection -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:21:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Sounds like VERY unprofessional behaviour to me... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:01:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- it's just a bit creepy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:05:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Attempts to sway your father? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:49:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Abi, the more I think about this... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:54:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David Whitla -:- Too late redcrow demon -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Tell whoever you like, David. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:47:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ DW -:- Thanks Nigel -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:20:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Thanks Nigel -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thanks for flame-free communication, David... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:54:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DW -:- yes, I agree -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Valerio's webpage -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:00:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Valerio's webpage -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:51:21 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:28:02 (EDT)

Enjoyinglife Reporter -:- Knowledge Session in South Florida -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:57:29 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Do you mean 'Lack of Knowledge' session -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:18:12 (EDT)
__ timmi -:- Re: Knowledge Session in South Florida -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:16:28 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- a Kabir primer for pwks!!! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:10:39 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Internet free speech site -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:08:32 (EDT)
__ Daisy -:- Re: Internet free speech site -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:51:52 (EDT)
__ __ Daisy -:- To the person who emaile me -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:45:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ David -:- A way to post with no trace -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:36:13 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- To Daisy -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:38:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: To Daisy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:49:28 (EDT)
__ __ SF -:- anonymity -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:51:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: anonymity -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:48:26 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- I'll respect your anomymity -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:33:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Your advice -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:28:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Your advice -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:10:05 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Thanks Daisy -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:58:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: Thanks Daisy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:43:13 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Sir Dave is into you having your rights -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:59:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: Sir Dave is into you having your rights -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Cases -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:59:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daisy -:- Thanks, Francesca. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:28:17 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- Anonymity is respected here -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:03:06 (EDT)
__ such -:- Internet free speech site [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:39:29 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- Don't follow leaders; check your parking meter... [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:40:22 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- Cheatananda's 'chump change' vs. miragey's riches -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:33:31 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- Swami C. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:48:37 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- interesting stuff -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:47:21 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- My quick note to the Oregonian reporter -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:20:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: My quick note to the Oregonian reporter -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:07:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Duh? Neglect question inabove post -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:22:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- Good, the word's getting out! (nt [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:37:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dave -:- No need for that -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:04:52 (EDT)

Patrick Wilson -:- I'm just getting it out of me system!! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: I'm just getting it out of me system!! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:49:06 (EDT)
__ __ SF -:- I remember that quote -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:32:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: I remember that quote -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:55:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- Yeah, right = vile! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:10:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SF -:- gotta agree -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:01:17 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:53:44 (EDT)
From: David Andersen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: See you guys later....
Message:
I'm grateful for the input and the stimulation; I've learned a lot and gone through a lot, and am clearer than ever re how I feel, what my bottom line is
---
and I'm off for a while
---
I've been robbing Peter to pay Paul, timewise, to both observe and post here
---
and I realize how incredibly dedicated some of you guys are, time-wise...it blows my mind.

Anyway, my best to you. I tried to speak from my heart, and act honorably and not speak past my experience. And definitely, I had my own agenda
---
in part,to provide an alternative voice for the casual viewer....take good care of yourselves. DA

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:56:01 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: The story of David A's late 70's music tape
Message:
David recorded an album using money from Steve Sordoni (I heard it cost 100 thousand) and frankly it is very good. Especially for the time, and it was a big hit amongst the asram premies that had it.
Our very own lord heard it and said, 'of course you cant release it'
and it was never released.
The lord DID allow him to release that song, 'can I give my heart to you' and the lord commented on it saying 'that song says 'can I' and
guru maharaji says yes and you say can I and guru maharaji says yes and...' you may recall that.
With that familiar -jeeze the premies aint as sharp as the lord wants- kind of comment.

His tape is quite good!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:51:24 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: See you guys later....
Message:
Of course you spoke from your HEART David. That's what I like about you. Maharaji is very lucky to have you as a friend.

But as a good friend David you need to tell them their is a problem which is festering and it won't go away and he needs to come clean. That is what a real 'good' friend will do. And I think you are the man for the job.

M is still allowing the Master/Devotee relationship to perpetuate and he is talking straight about Knowledge and the techniques.

M has to be told that the press will be contacted and his denial will hurt him and his family. The kids still have their whole adulthood ahead of them. Ask him nicely to retire, David. Ask him even nicer to apologize. Then the forgiveness can begin. How can you forgive someone who doesn't apologize? How can you forgive someone who is perpetuating the same deception, meaning the truth about Knowledge and the techniques.

Take care!

You are welcome to email at anytime: see above

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Nice knowing you.Some A's+Q's
Message:
Hey David-

Sorry to see you go, but I do realize how it can get time consuming for you, especially since you had so many different people asking you questions, and you, like Erica, were considerate enough to answer each one of them.

I'd have to give you an 'A' on your willingness to post under your own name, in a civil fashion, respond to all posts, and to do it in a way that fostered real dialog, not just useless flame (and blame) throwing...thanks.

I'll answer your questions briefly, as it seems that you don't want to spend a lot more time here.

1)Did you ever feel love for M?

Yes.
However,due to many occurrences (and EPO info as well as M's website info)I have come to reassess much of that.
Some was real,but a lot was projection, exaggeration,magical thinking,manipulation, etc.

I can't love a person I don't respect.
I don't respect him, nor do I believe that the 'warm fuzzy maharaji' on stage is anything like the man is in the rest of his life.
I've come to see the 'stage presence' as just that.

2)Do you still practice K?
I'm not sure what the current definition of 'practice' is.

I can and do get some value from the 4 techniques.
I also get value from practicing yoga and other techniques which make me feel better.
I was attending the videos regularly until I just couldn't take the hypocrisy that I saw coming from M anymore.
I now look at the 'video experience' that goes on in communities more as a sort of 'self hypnosis' and 'fan club' experience.
I think that new people generally never come back after one or two intro events because they also sense something like that, but many times don't share that with their premie friends who brought them.

Participation? Well, the local 'church ladies' pretty much showed me how unattractive, wierd and distasteful you can make something.
I came to realize that by 'participating' (formerly service)I was actually going against certain principles of honesty and integrity that I hold, and choose to hold in my life.
Participating, without being allowed to talk honestly, would be a negative thing for me, as well as the community.

Hmmm...you tell me Dave....I guess that makes me maybe a 'D-' premie, if we stretch the limits a bit?....I'm curious what you would say....I remember you as a loose type of guy (one of those wierd musician types-just kidding)who didn't seem to be a 'church lady', so how would you rate it?

3)What, exactly is the 'other side' you have so much distaste for?

I think that's pretty much outlined in the first letter I wrote to EV-I think there were 9 points I asked about.
Most of it has to do with the fact that M lied to us about many things, and portrayed himself as 'Lord' in the 70's, and now tries to say that he never did. (you know the story)

Also,the degenerate lifestyle he lived, while portraying himself as a holy, enlightened being who was 'always in god-consciousness'(his words).
I think he presents quite a different version of himself now,and rather than 'level' with us about his own personal journey and evolution (which would probably be quite interesting and acually spark some interest and rapport with his students), he hides the past and says that it doesn't matter. I disagree.

4)What are the 'actions and attitudes'you have PERSONALLY witnessed that have caused your loss of respect?

Many things, but here's one or two PERSONAL ones:

-watching him on the Atlanta propagation video actually put the blame for all of the 'Lord' concepts on the Indian mahatmas, when it was HIM who gave the satsangs with the concepts in them.(mahatmas and Indian premies did contribute, but he sure did as well. But he doesn't seem to want to mention that.)
(These old satsangs verify this.)
This refusal to take responsibility for his actions causes a loss of respect for the man.

-M PERSONALLY told me, when I asked what I might do for him a few years ago,to show videos of him to new people and premies and 'have some fun' with it.
So,I show the videos.(this is in the letter)
However, M knows about all the wierd baggage he has, and also that it is on the internet.
He never warns anyone about this, but instead sends us out to 'spread the word', without telling us of the possible backlash against it.
Believe me, I felt like a fool when I found out, and that's when I stopped showing the videos.
I was embarrassed both personally and professionally by this, and this causes a lack of respect for the man.
My letter to EV about this was replied to in the time honored 'go meditate, brother' fashion.

-I know certain people, who I trust implicitly, that were PERSONALLY at many things in which m acted out in the ways that have been outlined.(These are people I believe, not flaky,hateful people spreading false rumors.)

-Watching him at recent programs try to marginalize his critics by saying that are always about 5% people who are unjustifiably angry or 'out there'.
The message he gives is that they are just whiners or emotionally imbalanced or angry people with no reason to be so.(EV puts this message out as well)

-Many things that you don't have to PERSONALLY see that he did, because they are verifiable.
Example: Receiving awards from politicians for pulling young people out of the drug culture, while getting drunk and stoned regularly himself.
Dancing around in a crown and mala while now claiming that he never wanted to be looked at as a 'messianic figure' or leader.
Claiming that he never said that he was the lord, or god-incarnate.

Time to end this thing, Dave...

I think it comes down to this:

If you look at m as 'Lord', he can do no wrong.
You will not crically look at him.
If something is wrong, or you feel something uncomfortable about the whole thing, it's YOUR fault, NOT m's.
Things like hypocrisy and lack of responsibility and lying are just downplayed, because they don't really mattter, and m is 'human' just like we all are.
I agree, he is human, just like all of us.
So why can't he talk honestly and deal with the stuff he has created, like most of us do?

On the other hand, if you look at him as a man (I agree, not your everyday 'regular guy'), there is much to accounted for.
I look at him in this way.
I always have.
His refusal to deal with these things will continue to bother him, embarrass and hurt his students, and cause a steady erosion of faith and support in him and his work.

Jim Sander

PS-The main reason I left the 'fold' was that I just couldn't be part of a lie anymore.
I felt sleazy being part of it, and it felt cultish and wierd.
My life is incredibly wonderful since I had the honesty to look at this stuff and act on it.

I do, however, realize you feel differently.
Fine with me.
But do any of the points in my letter to EV strike anything in you?
Just curious.
Best wishes...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:13:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: My answers to similar questions
Message:
David,

Thanks again for your respectful approach to posting here - refreshing indeed. Following is my follow up post from below.

Richard

You asked Richard: why did you stop practicing K? Did you ever feel joy when practicing? Did you ever feel love, real love, for M? Truly curious. -DA

Good questions that I don't recall being asked of me on the forum before. I received K in 1972, went Montrose Guru Puja and India Hans Jayanti that year. Moved into the ashram in Tallahassee in 1973 and was brought to Denver that year to design collateral for Millenium 73 in Houston. (BTW: below you commented to Salam that when GMJ saw the propane blue flame throne he shit. Actually, according to Bob Mishler, He reached for the bottle and got hammered. But I digress.) I helped design the pubs (Divine Times, Aind It Is Divine and Élan Vital) until 1979. Did lots of service both direct and indirect in Miami.

I stopped practicing K in about 1986 after practicing daily since 1972. During a K review in Greenleaf, FL. review M said essentially 'You know, you don't have to practice K.' He probably meant it as a cute remark but it shot through me like a spear in my solar plexus. It occurred to me that I had been practing K religiously and not really enjoying it or the programs with M. I had been doing quite a lot of personal growth work and cathartic psychological / physical work that resulted in me having more aliveness and self confidence. At that point, M's clever remark seemed arrogant at best and he inadvertantly deprogrammed me on the spot. I was ready for a reason to reclaim my life and the truth struck home. I quit practicing K within a week and stopped for 7 years.

Flash forward to a K review in Vancouver, BC in about 1993. Curiosity drew me to that event and I found the energy at the event quite calm and I enjoyed seeing K in a new light w/o all the old baggage. The whole Master thing bothered me but still I practiced for a bit but never really got back into it. I went to Long Beach a few times and enjoyed seeing old friends and emersing myself in the nostalgia of a community I once loved. But quite frankly, I had a very difficult time with M's display of arrogance and the obvious worship that went on. I thought those days had past. M said that was all in the past but every video, every song, every trinket in the Divine Mall and especially the way M presented himself screamed 'Be Devoted To Me.' So I realized that M&K were no longer a path/experience/whatever that I wanted to follow.

Yes I felt joy when practicing K. Yes I felt deep, surrendered love for M and for Prem Pal Singh Rawat for that matter. Once I woke up to the reality that the source of love and pain was within me and that M was primarily interested in self aggrandizement and self enrichment, it was time to move on and 'enjoy my life'. I am not embittered or feel that I was ripped off. I took my devotion to GMJ seriously and benefitted as far as it went. I grew up.

You said: That's the crux, actually, of why the forum is ultimately exes' own worst enemy: the denial of an essential, bedrock validity to the lives of the people who practice K and love M.

Well that is certainly a glib pronouncement considering you are one of only a small handfull of premies to even tell their story and maybe one of two to use their real name. Erika (your sister?) was the other if memory serves me well. A richer dialogue would be welcome for me as well since my primary purpose on the forums has been to discover more about how I came to believe in M&K and why he continues to foster dependence and devotion among his followers.

One last comment David. You describe a relationship with M and his family that many PWK's would die for. I know I would have when my world revolved around M's every syllabel. But you must realize that you are quite unique in that experience and, for whatever M's reasons, he has chosen to only show you his genteel side.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:59 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: A question for either JS or DA
Message:
Is David Andersen the singer who has long gray hair in a ponytail, who has been frequently on stage with Maharaji recently? (If so, I think I understand his pro-Rawat attitude a little better).
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:14:01 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: My psychoanalysis of D.A.
Message:
I have seen David Andersen on stage with Rawat. He was being very blissed out (can I still use that term?) David was so giddy that Rawat gave him a momentarily stern look, but then smiled approvingly.

I think that David has some of his family members involved, he very much likes and admires all of Rawat's immediate family, and he gets a real kick out of being so close to the action. It would be hard for him to give up his status and his enjoyable relationships with so many nice and interesting people. Yes, D.A. has much more of his own personal life involved with the scene than most premies ever do.

In addition, the practice of meditation can be quite soothing if you go about it without too much expectations, and festivals and programs must be quite a treat for the privileged ones. There really is nothing but personal satisfaction for D.A. in the practice of Knowledge so why get picky about issues, yuck. I'm sure he has been quite horrified that ex-premies are trying to rock the boat. He has come out and admitted that he doesn't really know the answers about Maharaji's identity or anything about enlightenment and the universe and such, but he just loves Mr. Rawat. It's kind of like being a really big fan of somebody, and getting to be with that person some times. I really don't think it's much more than that.

I suppose my speculations would really rub him the wrong way if D.A. were still reading here. Why I am so mean? Why do I want to burst anybody's bubble, if they are enjoying the ride? Why don't I just walk away and mind my own business? And the answer is... you know, if there were only David Andersens around I would probably just say 'live and let live.' But unfortunately, that's not the whole story. New, gullible people are being told that they can't go home without the Master, and that Rawat is that Master. What utter bullshit. And that is the reason.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:43:29 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: My psychoanalysis of D.A.
Message:
I couldn't agree with you more. If M does quit flying around the world on his golden bird with his DARSHAN than his past has no choice but to catch up with them.

Most premies don't KNOW Maharaji or RAWAT. It's easy to look cool when you're idolized. You have to do much. Breathe, smile politely, past the dubie instead of talking into it like it's a microphone. David's a musician. He has a groovy time w/Rawat.

It's also easy to look cool when you're a frigin multi-millionaire. Expensive toys twinkle and attract us little human critters.

If the BigHead retires, than what?

You're only as good as your last DARSHAN, in M's world.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:36:16 (EDT)
From: JS
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes Way, that's DA
Message:
aa
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:52 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Bye to D.A.
Message:
David Andersen,

Thanks for dropping by. As you now know, anything you say can erupt into a debate, with a lot of different people jumping in with their perspectives. That can understandably wear a newcomer out, but that is also one of the reasons why this forum is interesting. We keep each other vigilant against easy expressions that are not authentic or careful enough. When premies come here, it is an opportunity to get rid of premiespeak and to carefully examine all our cherished concepts. (And believe me, despite Rawat's teaching against concepts, his premies have plenty).

If you had had the time and energy to stick around a little longer, I think we could have eventually come to some mutual understanding. I think your perspective is good to have here, not only to provide an alternative view for the casual reader, but to provide a tension that brings out the essence of what we are struggling with. And I would like to say that what we are struggling with is not just Rawat and his peccadillos, but some basic and universal human concerns.

I feel a little disappointed that I was never able to understand your perspective. You insisted that you follow Maharaji out of an inexplicable love that you have for him. Such a love does not really need defending, but since we challenge it, you defend it by saying what a sweet and kind man he is. But to me, this is not in question, nor is it the point. I want to know why you follow Maharaji the Master, not why you really like Mr. Rawat the person. I'm sure Mr. Rawat is quite interesting to be around, to say the least. But you never got around to answering my question about the journey toward infinity and do you still seek to change your basic consciousness. I myself see no reason to follow Maharaji or any other master unless one is disastified with his own consciousness and seeks to go to that place supposedly deep, deep, deep within where the finite meets the infinite. I don't understand premies who downplay that journey when Maharaji speaks of it fairly regularly.

One thing that concerns me is the possibility that you have posted here before under a different name. If that is true, I must tell you that I think that it is very unfair and dishonorable for you to have done that without letting us know the earlier name. If I knew in advance that you were 'Turner,' for example, or 'Mr. Williams', I would never have bothered to make the posts to you that I did post. I'm not accusing you of being anyone else, because I have no idea if that was the case or not.

In any case, thank you for whatever honest input you have made to the discussion. There are many premies who are interested only in throwing stones at us, so to speak, and to argue with us no matter what we say. If you have a geneuine interest in reaching a common understanding, then please come back any time you feel like it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 02:20:32 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: visual health
Message:
Who chose the colors for the print and background, the Marquis de Sade? It hurts my eyes to look at the beige background and the blue letters for very long. Anyone else feeling it, too?

In the interest of everyone's eyesight, I respectfully suggest that the powers that be here do some research on what's healthy for the eyes regarding color combinations.

Sandy in the sky with eyestrain

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:21:46 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Sandy
Subject: Are you the Sandy who was in the ashram
Message:
in Puerto Rico after Millenium? If so, please eMail me, especially if you know anything about what became of Elisha Perez, or how I could get in touch with any of the other 5 who were there with me and you (if you are that Sandy).
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:50:56 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Who else doesn't like this background colour???
Message:
Do you want the old custard back again as was on F5? If you don't like this background colour (which is 'wheat') please give your own preference or suggestion either in Hex or English. But if you do like this colour, please say so.

As an alternative, how about the colour on the webmaster's note?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:29 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Custard! Easy on eye, & for continuity w/ EPO [nt]
Message:
yowza
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:39:06 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best
Message:
That combination is supposed to be the most restful for the eyes. It is basically black on whiye but with the black ratchetted down a few notches and the white tinted with ivory to remove the glare. Although some have the opinion that it should be chocolate brown on ivory. No one disputes ivory as the best background for text. A couple of shades lighter than your current background.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:24 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A word from a web expert
Message:
Here is a web expert who does dispute ivory as best background color. David Siegal discusses background colors as well as link colors etc. Fascinating for us graphic designer types and hopefully useful in this discussion. Basically he says it is best to use an extremely light shade (he likes Minty Green which I mis-numbered before - should be # EEFFFA). The eyes begins to 'read' the lighter shade as white but the lighter shade is less harsh on the eyes than white. He discusses several ideal colors and pros/cons. (Man, I feel like Woody Allen hauling out Marshall McCluen).

Here's David:dsiegal.com/tips/wonk2/background.html

His main site is a hoot, too. dsiegal.com

Richard
[ dsiegal.com ]

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:24:47 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: great link for web designers
Message:
Siegal prefers mint green which is pleasant but I think the whole point of his argument about backgrounds for text is that OFF white is better than white as the monitor is backlit unlike paper. I have used mint green, pale pink, soft blue and faint yellow effectively with text on several sites with black, charcoal or drak brown text. But I have also used pale grey however it only works with colored text which is not suitable for aforum.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:16:50 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, Pat, and note also...
Message:
...screen-design research began long before the web. One reason I think Windows - and its most popular package Word - swept all rivals like Lotus Freelance out of the game was their switching to a simple black text on white background after all those hideous gaudy word-processing packages of the 'eighties.

Definitely prefer vanilla to spearmint, too.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best - YES!
Message:
Yes Pat, you are right. I have seen this before and it looks really good.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:34:11 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I thought you and I were not going to post anymore
Message:
Oh well so much for that. Best wishes to you and Moley.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:06:32 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: PatC
Subject: I never said that, but you did (several times)
Message:
Took a peek at your restaurant pic. Cool-looking place and v. interesting cuisine. Love the fact you can write such detailed menu notes in an informal style with none of the stuffiness, snobbery and 'assume-you-know-everything-already-if-you-are-one-of-us' you get in the UK in so-called gourmet dining places. Hope to look in there one day. Maybe me, Moley, you, Chuck, Marianne, Joe and anyone else in San Fran... (you did say you CAN cater for more than six, given sufficient warning.)

My/our quitting forum V was about Jim's banning. Jim has since been unbanned and I have been in email contact with JHB and understand now his situation at the time. (No love lost, I don't think...) And our post of the other day re. Amnesty etc. was not a signing-off, although many here seemed to read it that way.

It is funny how our motivations change so rapidly from day-to-day that one minute you are thinking 'I have had enough of this' and the next your are going 'God, I love this place - interesting discussions - fascinating people....'

But, like you, Pat, my conscience is telling me to spend less time here, make better use of my time, and maybe tread more lightly when I do post here. I realise I may have upset some good people with things I have posted in the past, without ever meaning to. My problem - if I have a problem - is I have never needed the ex-premie forum, having exited the cult so long before the internet arrived. Hence, I might sometimes fail to recognise that same need in anonymous posters whose stance from the outset is a hostile one, and to whom I respond in kind. But, then again, I never claimed to be a saint, so why should I pretend to be one now? Hmm, tricky area.. I think I will ask a psychologist.

Best to you and Chuck..

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:46:41 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB)
Message:
I misused the expression in relation to JHB. 'No love lost' usually means you never liked the guy to start with, so what the hell? - which is the exact opposite to what I meant, if you know what I mean...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:03:55 (EDT)
From: JHBB)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB)
Message:
I knew that - I thought it was quite funny when I read it! BTW looks like we're going to have to be very carful with parenthesesb here!
B)

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:46:57 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Yes, I say it at least once a week
Message:
I am trying to rewrite my cookbook and another book about South Africa and therefore trying to limit my reading and posting here. But then you and Moley reappear and I'm hooked again. I just hope Jim doesn't come back or else I will be back to my old addiction.

As for the psychologically troubled premie anonymice - I'm afraid I am allergic to them. More and more they are beginning to remind me of Scientologists and ESTers I have known. In fact many of my real life premie friends also remind me of those. As I've said before I am an agnostic christian and cannot stomach cold, sarcastic and insincere game-playing. I'm too moralistic and too much a believer in kindness.

Hopefully one day we will have a mini Latvian night when you make it to the cool, grey city of love

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:07:57 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Well if San Fran is cool and grey...
Message:
God help you if you ever come to Liverpool. (And be sure to wear a flower in your hair...)

The only Liverpool Latvian do so far was me, hamzen and loaf. I also had separate pub meets here with various individual exes, but according to Anth's rules, when there's only two of you that isn't a Latvian, it's a date. And regarding one such occasion, at least, he was bloody well right :):):):):):):)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 07:47:22 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Latvian Date
Message:
But surely if you have a drink with a real Latvian it can be called a Latvian do, or at least a Latvian date?

John the been to Liverpool and SF and knows which is grey:-)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:29:38 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Herb Caen, the deceased bard
Message:
of San Francisco coined the phrase ''cool, grey city of love'' and also said it was like living inside a pearl. He also called it ''Baghdad by the Bay.''

We had an unfortunate two months of heat this summer but are back to cool fog and grey skies and laughing at tourists from Minnesota in shorts with blue goose-bumps.

Well, by that definition, I guess Chuck, Andy and I are having a Latvian Night every night.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:42:08 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Custard Custard ! Give us Custard!! nt
Message:
d
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Minty green - seriously
Message:
David,

BACKGROUND COLOR: According to web research, Minty Green (CCFFCC) is the easiest on the eyes. Barring that, I would prefer white 'paper'.

VIEW ALL: I also would like 'View All' as the default. I constantly have to hit that button to view all the threads. As at FV, this one is beginning to move quickly in many directions.

FONT: Is it possible for the default font to be San Serif (Ariel, etc)? The current Serif is more difficult to read.

BEST OF: Are these threads being archived? I would be willing to help create a *Best Of* - JM may be doing this already as on F5. I could also help with that JM.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:10 (EDT)
From: Admin Assistant
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Minty green - seriously
Message:
'Best of' posts and archives will continue to be stored on EPO. You can help J-M as before by drawing 'Best of' candidates to his attention.

Colors? Admin assistants are color blind:)

AA

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:25:01 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Minty green - seriously
Message:
Have to agree with Richard here, although I'm not a font expert.

I think view all should be the default. Even if I am in view all, if I post, it defaults back to view less.

bests, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:06:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: Who else doesn't like this background colour?
Message:
I like it. Sandy has been doin to much eye squeezin.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:13:39 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dave
Subject: Bring back the custard!
Message:
This 'wheat' looks a nasty pink on my monitor. Aside from the colour - which hurts my eyes too - it also causes confusion between F6 and AG - when you flip back and forth between forums you can easily forget where you are. Better to match the EPO colours, even though this is now a separate site, IMNAAHO.

The 'collapse' feature is great, as is the 'search messages'. I also like the 'edit message' option for correcting typos etc. Please keep all these. Ta.

But would it be possibly to have 'view all' as the default, rather than 99 messages?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:33:07 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, make View All the Default.
Message:
And let's try minty green if research shows...
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:37:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Collapse, edit, search YES [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:42:11 (EDT)
From: Cybercop DI 2
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: check this out Cat and LG crew
Message:
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; DIL0001021)

well well fucking well

Chief Inspector, we have a closed case.
Final suspect in the can.
Our DI's were right all along, patience always pays.

'OK, put it on the notice board in red.

and prepare the report for the CP.'

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:49:09 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Cybercop DI 2
Subject: the crew flounders, heh!
Message:
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; DIL0001021)

well well fucking well

Chief Inspector, we have a closed case.
Final suspect in the can.
Our DI's were right all along, patience always pays.

'OK, put it on the notice board in red.

and prepare the report for the CP.'


---

check this out Cat and LG crew

Yous' all at sea, man. Better synchronise, innit?
[ is funny, eh? ]

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:46:27 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Is this wheat ?- it looks like mushroom from here
Message:
Not sure about the webmaster's note either - is it a colour???
Personally not into anything with hints of a tint of yellow in it. Would suggest blue - but perhaps too reminiscent of a darshan tunnel.Purple and green (but not lime) go well together. (IMO BTIHNoTaste) Shall I consult a Dulux colour chart and get back to you?
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:42:32 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Bring back the custard!
Message:
I don't think I could bear to bring back the custard, Nigel. I do want this place to look different from ex-premie.org. You're seeing different colours to what I am. This forum is a warm wheat color, light browny yellow, fawn, while AG is brown with a hint of orange and much darker than this.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:26:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Black on gray?
Message:
How about black on gray? That seem to work pretty well when you had it on AG. At least for me.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:29:20 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And since you asked
Message:
This wheat color works just fine for me, and it looks like that on my monitor, too. But I'd hate to see Sandy and Nigel go blind, so maybe something should be done (like maybe they should buy glasses, snicker).
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:18:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Ok, well maybe try this...
Message:
Black type, arial font, white background (colour element provided by emoticoms). Non-controversial and very easy to read - even for the colour-blind and those people with dodgy monitors (like EV? ha-ha!).
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:52:55 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loaf@superheros.as
To: Dave
Subject: Custard my Arse !
Message:
all this talk of custard is upsetting my foppish gay interior design lifestyle. I think we need professionals in here - we all know how colo(U)r wll affect your 'energy' - I mean the lilac room is a very girly place (and great for it) - but obviously the yellow of F5 is a no-go area... can we manage a plaid, or stripes ?

Any chance of a pattern so bold it makes reading the posts difficult ?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:57:53 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Loaf
Subject: Lightened it now
Message:
I think a nice McDonald tartan would look good and make premies' posts more interesting. Until then, I've changed the color slightly and made a lighter shade which is #F7DFBB

What do you think?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:24:15 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: David
Subject: EN -Lightened it now
Message:
I would make the unread threads the MOST VIVID blue.. because it will encourage people to read everything, and by their so doing, make their room more restful.

Can we have tea and coffee facilities too, and perhaps some nice comfy sofas ?

I have some nice silk prints which would hang beautifully....

Loaf
Throne Builder (retired)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:31:32 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: Lightened it now
Message:
It blends well wtih my monitor. But it's the blue writing, it's so luminous... what about forest green writing instead (the colour of Golden Virginia baccy pouches, one of which I am holding up to screen now and it looks good. IMO.)... turning to bright orange (or possibly purple) when read.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:34:31 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: I don't get blue writing
Message:
I see black on the background color. Depending upon which browser you use, you may be able to change the type-face color using tools or preferences.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:45:19 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Neither do I
Message:
I think they meant blue links, which they are. It's impossible to set the default to all 700 posts but if people read the Forum Help, they'll see that if you bookmark the forum when it's showing all 700 posts, all 700 posts will show whenever you click on your bookmark to go to the forum.

There's a lot there above in this thread to digest!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:52:39 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
I hope this wasn't posted previously but I find this tripe hilarious:

Goober:

He said that it was easy to understand and discuss the trivial things in life, but that when it comes to the discussion about this life. most people don't even want to consider it. Yet if we really want to start to exist, we must understand the importance of the breath and the value of life.

He recounted the death of a wealthy friend, who did not have Knowledge. 'All his wealth, all of his achievements, none of them could help him to breathe.'

We know, he said, that we come into the world empty-handed, but do we know that when the master comes we don't have to leave empty-handed.

The problem is that we feel that we come into the world to make a profit, but actually when we leave, we don't even leave with what we came with. However, it is not as if there isn't a reminder. It is not, though, in the mind, it is in the heart.

The heart always longs for fulfillment; it is always calling out for it.

If we can give embrace that which is not dependant on time, which neither comes nor goes, then we can free ourselves from the grasp of death.

From birth, we are actually in the grasp of death, he said, but we forget this. 'That is why there is Knowledge, so you can feel your originality again. If you connect to that experience, your don't have to worry about the clutches of death.'

'All my words would be empty - no matter how wonderful they may sound - without Knowledge. It would be just like pouring grain into a mill and getting no flour out.'

Now wasn't that profound? No wonder he doesn't want to give any interviews, he's a wooden dummy who gets a positive response only from his followers.

I can't believe I ever fell for this stuff.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:18:58 (EDT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
I hope this wasn't posted previously but I find this tripe hilarious:

Goober:

He said that it was easy to understand and discuss the trivial things in life, but that when it comes to the discussion about this life. most people don't even want to consider it. Yet if we really want to start to exist, we must understand the importance of the breath and the value of life.

He recounted the death of a wealthy friend, who did not have Knowledge. 'All his wealth, all of his achievements, none of them could help him to breathe.'

We know, he said, that we come into the world empty-handed, but do we know that when the master comes we don't have to leave empty-handed.

The problem is that we feel that we come into the world to make a profit, but actually when we leave, we don't even leave with what we came with. However, it is not as if there isn't a reminder. It is not, though, in the mind, it is in the heart.

The heart always longs for fulfillment; it is always calling out for it.

If we can give embrace that which is not dependant on time, which neither comes nor goes, then we can free ourselves from the grasp of death.

From birth, we are actually in the grasp of death, he said, but we forget this. 'That is why there is Knowledge, so you can feel your originality again. If you connect to that experience, your don't have to worry about the clutches of death.'

'All my words would be empty - no matter how wonderful they may sound - without Knowledge. It would be just like pouring grain into a mill and getting no flour out.'

Now wasn't that profound? No wonder he doesn't want to give any interviews, he's a wooden dummy who gets a positive response only from his followers.

I can't believe I ever fell for this stuff.


---

my mum had k and died because she couldn't breathe- She realised at the end he was useless and put his photo face down in the drawer and none of her last words were about 'HIM!' - they were words of love to her family who loves her and who she REALISED at the end were the core of her life- the breath thing is a real joke after witnessing that. The breath is good- no argument... but m is another story...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 01:35:28 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
The 'process' of losing oneself becoming a guru worshiper is so gradual though that by the time one have become a sucker, a beggar, a needy person and later one cannot remember were one came from.

Premies believe that they are having an individual experience just because they cannot allow themeselves to judge their own belief system; they are not allowed to think for themselves.They need daddy to tell them what life is about it; they cannot find it on their own.

His 'good' moronic persuasion techniques put me for 26 long years on the disadvantage of 'he knows, I don't' and keept me always needy enough, weak enough to have to come for more. More of what? Well, nothing, but he pretends it is something, he convinces you that it is something, he persuades you oveer and over that without him you CANNOT CROSS TO 'THE OTHER SIDE'. Like he had crossed it...

He keeps you confused enough that you think you are somewhere and in reality, you have lost YOUR SELF. The self dissappeared. The shine trip is fake because underneath all what stands is a pathetic being like the master. There is no freedom being a devote.

A good quote:

'Followers of religion are always looking for inner peace, but they lose their inner peace in searching for it.'

The mental ensalada he creates is good for bussiness: Breath in and out, quick, don't think and there you have it; you have become a smiling vegetable. He has fun, you don't. Gobber sucks! And he so ugly, gosh, what was i thinking...

Hi Gerry. :)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:22:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
Hi Silvia:

Well are you ever full of surprises! I love your postscript.

The mental ensalada he creates is good for bussiness: Breath in and out, quick, don't think and there you have it; you have become a smiling vegetable.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:23:20 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
Are you making fun of me? hahhahaha No, I was not a smiling vegetable but came close to be one. I scaped!

I had 'too much mind'. I maintained a circle of friends who were not premies since I receive K and with whom I would have never discussed my secret life, but simply mentioned lightly, read, I did felt embarrassed of 'that' part of me, dependant in a fat guru who I saw over the years become richer and richer with our personal efforts. Deep inside I knew something was wrong and couldn't dare to question 'HIM', the supreme power in person...(BULLSHIT MAHARAJI: YOU ARE SCAM, you bussiness man, opresssor, party pooper!, but, I had my own mind and many didn't like it. 'Hitler' Smith wanted me out so bad and he was right: I didn't belong to such a stupid, silly, moronic group of people to whom what is left is even as little as a wish to be at least LOOKED BY HIM ONCE...pathetic.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:00:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
Hi Silvia,

No I wasn't make fun of you and I was having fun with you.

About this part:
I had my own mind and many didn't like it. 'Hitler' Smith wanted me out so bad and he was right: I didn't belong to such a stupid, silly, moronic group of people to whom what is left is even as little as a wish to be at least LOOKED BY HIM ONCE...pathetic.

I remember David Smith, what a fuckin piece of work HE was. Shit!

I never bought into the good-premie behaiour either. It got in the way of my darshan. Hell, if you bought the whole enchanalada why you would not chase darshan instead.

The premies who caught my attention and subsequently escorted me to the knowledge session were also somewhat rebellious although they LOOOOOVED M something big and had lots of personal interaction to him. So I fell in those footsteps. Heck my boss had his own money, started his own business, had a squeeze, chased darshan, came and went where he wanted, while living in the BroadRipple.

When I was around other premies (doing service) and M would appear, they would act this 'weird' way, never expressing their personalities or sticking their hand out to say Hi or just talking casually was considered rude or unpremie like. Didn't stop me. I thought, 'sorry suckers, more darshan for me'.

What a flakey history we have. ycchhh cults, ycchhh....

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:20:34 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: mental ensalada, yes!
Message:
Nice post,Silvia. Here's something I found on the net you might find funny:

SOME DETAILS REGARDING SATSANG QUALITY:
DIALOGUE BETWEEN CHARLES SCHUMAN (QUESTIONER) AND PETROS:

> Tell me, now, if you would. Do you find that
> it is the guru, or the crowd in it's expectations
> that create those great vibes?

It's the gestalt created when the guru and the group get together. A strong central presence can get everyone on the same wavelength. Without it, it's just a tea-party!

> If the guru is just faking it, in your
> estimation, how does it effect the vibes?

Most people in the group probably couldn't tell, not having subtle enough discernment or not enough experience in satsangs with other teachers. They will follow the lead of everyone else, however. A few people with more discernment might sense that something isn't quite right, especially if the teacher speaks at length. But such people may decide not to say anything and just go along for the ride anyway and chalk it up to experience.

For instance, I just attended another Maharaji video tonight, with about ten people attending. There was nothing wrong with what Maharaji said or the way he said it, and everyone was very silent and attentive. But I still sense something amiss about this particular group, but I can't put it into words yet.

> Does less talk make for a better satsang?

Surely.

> Your willingness to create your own satsang,
> just to get your fix, was one damned straight
> honest disclosure. Does the guru grok the
> vibes as much as those attending?

I think the guru is usually the most addicted of the bunch! See, he needs the fix so bad, he's become a 'dealer' (dealer of bliss?) in order to get it wholesale.

Much of this was validated for me in a recent satsang with Ram Tzu, who basically agreed with me that satsang can be a form of attachment replacing other attachments on one's journey.

Mind you this is from a person who is not a premie or an ex-premie, but a 'disinterested outsider.' Speaks volumes about what a fake Rawat really is.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:15:06 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Addicted to Bliss
Message:
That is good; where did you get it from? I like this part:

I think the guru is usually the most addicted of the bunch! See, he needs the fix so bad, he's become a 'dealer' (dealer of bliss?) in order to get it wholesale.

Well, we know gurushi well; he is addicted to many aspects of his 'masterhood' and MONEY and POWER over others give him a good FIX everytime, also. I think bliss is his least concern, for what I witnessed being in the cult for 26 years. He likes the rock & roll and as much toys as possible, but tell his devotees material things don't bring happiness: What a hipocrat he is, sorrounded by all he needs, even FREE servants, 24 hours a day. Every single detail of what he wants is taken care of. I could be comfortable more often too if I was in his position. I detest his falshood and lies and would be so rewarding if I ever hear him saying he lied to us...it won't happen; just a wish...

Definetly a person may learn to think a guru is necesary to know how to live life but ultimetly, is that person's personal, individual effort to understand themselves what will lead her/him to learn how to live. 'To live is easy, to know how to live is not' but is not impossible as he tells people that ONLY a guru knows how. Following him is a ticket for mental confusion. The guru's perceptions are not applicable for each individual because the circumstances are different, and a premie in the process applying what they 'learn' from gurushi become very confused, strange individuals, strange to themselves.

GURUS ARE BAD FOR PEOPLE'S MENTAL HEALTH.

There is no easy fix for personal unsatisfaction but only through self honesty and good priciples one can lead a better life, be in charge of one's own life.

Silvia, against ANY addiction. Well, except one: MUSIC. hahahhaha

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:06:42 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
Dear Elan Vital minitors,

can you please pass on a message to Dr Valerio Pascotto for me?

I appreciate that Dr Pascotto felt a need to call my father from Canada last night and have a long 'premie to premie' chat about me. What I find very upsetting is the way that Dr Pascotto continually tries to position me as part of an evil force which is bent on ruining Maharaji. Please tell Dr Pascotto that any attempt to drive any sort of wedge between me and my father on the grounds that I no-longer follow Maharaji will fail. Blood is thicker than devotion.
If Dr Pascotto wishes to tell me (again) that I am part of an evil international force then I would appreciate it if he said so directly to me and not behind my back to my father. He has my contact details.

I think I've made myself clear.

Thanks EV monitors.

Best wishes,

Abi who will continue to speak truth to power until Jagdeo is accounted for

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:29:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
Hi Abi,

I admire your fortitude. Rock on!

You asked him to tell you to your face, how about having him put it in writing?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:26:38 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
apparently his email is valpas@eos.org

(thanks to Nigel who found his website, and a picture of him).

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:44:48 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
CQ: I peeked at his page. Thank you for the link. I recognize that mug. On one page he writes:

The behavior of frogs offers an interesting analogy for business. Thrown in a pot of scalding water frogs are able to survive by quickly jumping out. However, if placed in lukewarm water that is being heated, they adjust to the rising temperature until they boil to death.

Gee, one word could change that to:

The behavior of frogs offers an interesting analogy for CULTS. Thrown in a pot of scalding water frogs are able to survive by quickly jumping out. However, if placed in lukewarm water that is being heated, they adjust to the rising temperature until they boil to death.

M wants people to ease into M & K like a warm bath, . EPO is apparently raising the temperature of the water. n'est-ce pas?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:44:43 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: cq
Subject: Suggestion to all - and to Abi...
Message:
I don't think it is a good idea for anyone to go emailing Valerio unless they either have a personal involvement in the Jagdeo situation or else know for sure that Jagdeo's victims are happy about what you are writing to him.

Abi - I hope I haven't made this a longer thread than you wanted it to be. Sorry, if that is what has happened - but I just wanted to reassure you there wasn't anything to worry about vis-a-vis the perceived 'power' of psychologists. Things have moved on a long way since One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (though not nearly far enough, in my book).

I think for the most part people are very supportive and not about to do anything counter-productive. The Cat and I even had our first ever civil exchange of posts - so who says miracles don't happen..? ;)

Lower down you wrote to me: 'I don't know what to do'. I think just posting your initial thread here was more than enough for the time being. Interested parties will take your comments on board, I am sure..

The rest of us should maybe shut the fuck up and do nothing more than offer support where needed. I don't think it is really our business to interfere in any way unless someone requests our help.

Best,
Nige (the anti-psychologist's psychologist who knows where they are coming from...)

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:01:03 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Don't risk making it tougher for Abi by
Message:
I don't think it is a good idea for anyone to go emailing Valerio unless they either have a personal involvement in the Jagdeo situation or else know for sure that Jagdeo's victims are happy about what you are writing to him.

Abi - I hope I haven't made this a longer thread than you wanted it to be. Sorry, if that is what has happened - but I just wanted to reassure you there wasn't anything to worry about vis-a-vis the perceived 'power' of psychologists. Things have moved on a long way since One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (though not nearly far enough, in my book).

I think for the most part people are very supportive and not about to do anything counter-productive. The Cat and I even had our first ever civil exchange of posts - so who says miracles don't happen..? ;)

Lower down you wrote to me: 'I don't know what to do'. I think just posting your initial thread here was more than enough for the time being. Interested parties will take your comments on board, I am sure..

The rest of us should maybe shut the fuck up and do nothing more than offer support where needed. I don't think it is really our business to interfere in any way unless someone requests our help.

Best,
Nige (the anti-psychologist's psychologist who knows where they are coming from...)


---

trying to help her , especially without her input and aproval. I speak with some 1st hand experiance; I am the father (step-father, technically, but I love her and her sister as much as I do my natural daughter) of a victim of a different pedophile. The issue of what M knew and when he knew it is one thing. But being suportive to Abi, and not risking generating further problems for her is paramount (sp?), IMO.

Guess ourv agreeing proves what you said about miracles, Nigel.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:57:42 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi...
Message:
I totally agree, Nigel. My intention in giving Pascotto's email address to Abi was so that she could, if she wanted, make sure that her communication actually reached him, rather than having to rely on any EV monitors to forward her message.

Perhaps I ought to have also said that the email address was meant to be for her use and her's alone.

Personally I wouldn't dream of getting involved unless Abi specifically requested me to. Which is unlikely.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:14:44 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi...
Message:
Thanks Nigel. I agree that contacting Valerio would be inappropriate.

But it will be interesting to see if he contacts me now. I just wish he'd lay off my father. You see they don't want me to post or be at all involved with epo or this forum. So they try and put presure on my father to put pressure on me to stay away from the 'dark force'. Very nasty levels of manipulation going on which have been pretty upsetting.

best

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:36:28 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Agreed, Nige
Message:
Dear folks,

People who are not involved in this situation (i.e. are not Jagdeo victims) should not bother Valerio. It is one thing for us to post our ideas on a bulletin board.

Just my two cents. I didn't want anyone to bother Charles Glassner either. This is up to Abi and Susan and any other sexual abuse victims of Jagdeo to deal with on their own, in their own way. But we can be supportive, and I support Abi in whatever she decides to do about this longstanding situation.

bests, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:54:08 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Agreed, Nige and Francesca
Message:
Dear folks,

People who are not involved in this situation (i.e. are not Jagdeo victims) should not bother Valerio. It is one thing for us to post our ideas on a bulletin board.

Just my two cents. I didn't want anyone to bother Charles Glassner either. This is up to Abi and Susan and any other sexual abuse victims of Jagdeo to deal with on their own, in their own way. But we can be supportive, and I support Abi in whatever she decides to do about this longstanding situation.

bests, f


---

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:34:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Dear Abi
Message:
Dear Abi
For personal reasons your story (and the story of Susan) upset me. This is a personal thing I have explained it before, but I am not going into that again. You have called me a creep, and others have made even more outrageous accusations. I will not comment that either.
However I also have been the victim of crimes, and a few years ago I was the victim of severe violence. The guy who did it went free, due to the legal system and witnesses that lied.
When I experienced this I started lobbying the minister of justice and members of the parliament. My objective was to increase the rights of victims of violence. It seems that I succeeded in some extent and I received letters from the office of the minister of laws that stated some laws would be proposed. One law was proposed that improved some of the rights for victims, an also the sum of compensation was increased from 200 000 till 1 million. (NOK) Recently there are also suggested laws that makes it possible to have your case re-evaluated, and another one that makes it possible for victims to be given compensation even if the accused is not found guilty.

Probably due to the fact that one organisation “The association of victims of violence”, liked my lobbying, they assigned me to write a document regarding a hearing at the parliament about the proposed law of paying compensation to victims of crimes such as rape, violence and paedophile. I took the assignment quite seriously and made a comprehensive research.

In my research I discovered that in average only about 20 % of reported crimes in my country ends with a sentence for the accused in the area of rape, violence and paedophile. I also argued that the rights of the accused are clearly documented in the laws, but on the other hand the rights of the victims have been stolen in the process. Thus the society the laws of punishments that in the first place, was made to protect the citizens and see that justice would happen, had run away from this responsibility. (My research also uncovered a lot of other amazing things.) The reason for me to mention this is to tell that I have some knowledge about these things even though I have a very limited knowledge of laws and especially in your country..

IMO, even though I feel empathy for your case, I think you should try to see realities on the practice of law. Let us assume that I don’t ‘know the seriousness of the crime you were the victim of. I think however you should notice the following:
* In the eyes of the law there is a big difference between penetration and fondling.
* The fact that it took 25 years before a crime was reported to the police weakens your case a lot. (Anth says he reported the case, but personally I doubt that – if anyone challenges that, I will explain why I doubt it)
* Only a victim of a crime or relatives can report a crime. (EV has no right to do that)
* A prosecutor will only take a case to court if he / she is convinced that the accused will be punished
* The fact that the ex-premie site has used this case as a tool to destroy Ms reputation and that the accused has not been chased, will weaken your case in the eyes of the law.
* Suggestions like reporting Ms representative to his union will also weaken your case against the accused.
*According to international laws of Human Rights no one is guilty until judged. (That makes a lot of statements here against this law) and what has happened here also weakens your case.

I don’t really know what kind of advise to give you. Obviously, IMO, you suffer from posttraumatic sufferings. I wrote with the help of a friend a piece about the cure of such sufferings in F5, but the FA deleted my story. I also think it would be wise to read “rejoice in existence” which is the email message form M (Elan Vital) today.
Anyway I wish you the best.
Bjørn E.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:59:14 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Subject: Not so fast
Message:
* Only a victim of a crime or relatives can report a crime. (EV has no right to do that)

This isn't true in the USA, or at least in California. As to child abuse, in particular, a practicing therapist or medical professional is REQUIRED to report even suspected cases of child abuse, and anyone with information is allowed to report it to the authorities. So, Elan Vital not only could, but should report it, as should Valario, whom I understand is a practicing, licensed, therapist in California.

* A prosecutor will only take a case to court if he / she is convinced that the accused will be punished

I don't know about Norway, but this isn't true here either. A prosecutor with normally take a case if he or she thinks there is a reasonable chance of a conviction. Punishment is often left up to the judge, although that is decreasingly the case in the prison industrial complex that is the USA.

And as for 'victims rights' that has been parlayed into a 'three-strikes' law in California that means people can get 25 years to life for second offense shoplifting or burglary. Accordingly, California has perhaps the harshest criminal penalty system in the entire world, and spends more on prisons than higher education. We now have SEVEN times more people in prison in this state than we had 20 years ago, with a crime rate that has been steadily declining over the same period. It's nuts.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:16:27 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Subject: Dear Bjorn.
Message:
Bjorn,

Can you remember all the shit you caused when you began posting about this sort of stuff before? You ended up upsetting lots of people and getting banned from the forum.

All sorts of your personal problems intruded into your posts and your stuff eventually became offensive.

Now it looks like you want to ride around the houses one more time.

Please take your personal problems to a place where someone can help you with them. This is not the place. You will only end up upsetting people and getting upset yourself, like you did last time.

Sincerely,

Anth

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:36:50 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Subject: Fuck off Bjorn
Message:
Leave Abi alone. No one here cares what you have to say about this. You are obsessed with Abi. Your posts verge on cyber stalking. Go see your therapist.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:57:40 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, get real
Message:
First, the guy is a victim of violent crime, and you tell him to 'fuck off.'

What's the matter, crime victims only have rights to 'speak to power' if they support YOUR AGENDA? Why doesn't his pain count? Because you don't like him? He had it coming? Is that what you are saying?

And given that you make a living defending murderers, rapists and drug dealers, and god knows what else, your hypocrisy is showing. Poor Abi gets your love and support...only as long as she plays into your agenda. Everyone else is told 'fuck off.' Nice, very nice.

When are you going to abandon her? When you're done with her?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:22:51 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Hey, Mr anonymous.
Message:
Why are you scared to use your name here? What are you frightened of?

You really are an anonymous premie shit-stirrer. A sneaky character who shouts abuse from behind a wall, but won't come out and put his money where his mouth is?

What do you know about Bjorns problems?

What do you know about the problems he caused before?

What's your interest in this matter premie-ji?

Wouldn't your time be better spent poking yourself in the eyes, sticking your thumbs in your ears, or sucking some snot?

Anth the human being.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:19:55 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Yo Charles!
Message:
Your browser is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:05:38 (EDT)
From: Not quite, sherlock
Email: None
To: MrT
Subject: Re: Yo Charles!
Message:
You opined Your browser is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)

Ooopsie, back to computer skool.. That aint a unique ID. That fits, oh, about a kabillion computers.

Thanks for playing Dodge The Question. Why are U so interestd in anonymous postings ONLY when they disgree with you? Read the linx on this page about free speech whydoncha. Or this only when hate is on the menu?

And you're about 150 miles too far East, by the whey...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:40:16 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Not quite, sherlock
Subject: Whassup chuck?
Message:
You opined Your browser is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)

Ooopsie, back to computer skool.. That aint a unique ID. That fits, oh, about a kabillion computers.

Thanks for playing Dodge The Question. Why are U so interestd in anonymous postings ONLY when they disgree with you? Read the linx on this page about free speech whydoncha. Or this only when hate is on the menu?

And you're about 150 miles too far East, by the whey...


---

Your browser type is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; DIL0001021)

heh!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:50:04 (EDT)
From: I agree
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: that totally sucks from a so called 'lawyer'
Message:
you should excuse yourself from the case immediately with that insane attitude trowards a sincere witness
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
From: Prem Pal Jagdeo
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Bjorn's got a Boner!
Message:
Great post, Bjorn! Fondling...penetration...it's all so exciting!

P.S. Are you still having sexual feelings for five year old girls?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:37 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Re: Marianne, get real
Message:
Use another name other than Jean-michel Dettmers otherwise your posts will be deleted.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:04 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Re: Who the hell are you?
Message:
Whoever you are,

Fuck off to you too. You come here using variations on the names of two REAL individuals and have the nerve to call Marianne a hypocrite!

I personally don't believe anything Bjorn says because he has an abnormal interest in the Jagdeo issues, particularly concerning Abi and Susan.

As for abandoning people, what about your guru? He's completely abandoned the victims of Jagdeo and the ex-premies don't like it one bit.

So, think before you throw accusations and insults toward anyone here. Abi is telling the truth. Bjorn is a troll, a creep.

EV monitors take note: the Jagdeo issue IS NOT going away. That's right. It ain't so!

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:18:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: And who are you? Perhaps you are new here...
Message:
Hi JMD,

Perhaps you don't know the history of Bjorn's posting record here over the past couple of years?

Both Abi and Susan have felt either spooked or intimidated by Bjorn's prurient obsession with Jagdeo's offences (Bjorn's intentions or sincerity are irrelevant if the effect is to cause upset - wouldn't you agree?). For that reason alone he has been repeatedly asked to stop by various FAs as a condition of posting on the forum. He frequently returns to ask the same questions over and over (this particular post is not an extreme example).

And in what sense is Bjorn's posting here anything to do with 'speaking to power'? Your post makes no sense to me.

BTW: Abi has repeatedly stated that she has never felt used by anyone here to further any other agenda besides bringing Jagdeo to justice. Most premies seem to accept her word on this, and I think you should too. To do otherwise is patronising in the extreme.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:41:26 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: This oerson is also probably Bjorne.
Message:
Either way they are both teal sickos.

Love Jethro

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:32:08 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
And this man is actually registered as a professional psychologist in the state of California - that is a terrifying thought!
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:21:53 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: speaking out as self-protectionprotection
Message:
And there are moments when I get terrified of what they are capable of. I don't like living with that. Speaking out is my only form of self-protection.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:01:42 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Abi
Subject: Sounds like VERY unprofessional behaviour to me...
Message:
I would be very surprised if Valerio is working in a 'professional' capacity, ie. employed by the cult as a psychologist. And if he is, such behaviour in regard to an abuse victim who isn't his client could lead to big trouble if his professional association got to hear about it. (Bad enough even if his involvement here is merely a form of 'service' - or some other freelance paid capacity for Elan Vital).

I wouldn't be too worried, Abi (ie. about Valerio might be capable of). Provided you keep making things public, I would think the guy has a lot to lose in regard to his profession credentials if he oversteps certain ethical mark - and I think he might have already done that... (EV monitors please note!) Yes, I think speaking out is by far your best form of self-protection, Abi - and there's loads of us here who admire you for doing so and would help in any way we could.

If you felt so inclined you would be perfectly entitled to contact whatever professional body he is involved with - and I think you would be safe to do so without fear of their ganging up on you. They would throw the bloody book at him, I would have thought.

Best of luck Abi,
Nige

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:05:40 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: it's just a bit creepy
Message:
Thanks Nigel,

I'm just really fed up with it all. Fed up with the evasions, the double-talk, the attempt to sway my father, the whole sordid and lengthy process. It really gives me the creeps. Not sure what to do really.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:49:28 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Attempts to sway your father?
Message:
What is Valario attempting to sway your father to do? To convince you to do something? To convince your father to cut you off because you are part of an 'evil group?' What is Valario attempting to get your father to do?
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:54:56 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Abi, the more I think about this...
Message:
..the more I am certain there are already grounds for contacting Dr. P's professional association. His involvement with you and your father is entirely related to a serious claim of sexual abuse by another employee of the people hiring the Doctor's services. From the sound of this phone call his conduct here is grossly unethical.

I have work colleagues better-placed to advise me here. Email me on above address if you'd like me to investigate. (Though understandable if you felt it better not to stir things up until you know what EV's next moves are going to be...)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:46 (EDT)
From: David Whitla
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Too late redcrow demon
Message:
I'm afraid you already have stirred 'things' up. Guess that's what too much thinking does. Your post has already flown out of the window to far off lands. Maybe re -read it again in a rational state of mind.

And then prepare to eat it, well seared and served with hot chilli.

Silly boy, should have left well alone. There ain't no heroes in cyberspace, but plenty of shmucks.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:47:30 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: David Whitla
Subject: Tell whoever you like, David.
Message:
Abi posted some worrying information here to the effect that a Doctor Valerio Pascotto, a psychologist and child counsellor apparently tasked by EV with investigating some serious abuse claims against Mahatma Jagdeo has been telephoning her father (NB: rather than Abi herself - who anyway is NOT even his client) to discuss the case and warn of her involvement with 'an international conspiracy' of former cult members.

She is obviously worried, so I suggested she contact Dr Pascotto's professional association, since Dr Pascotto has made no attempts to contact Abi directly, so it would seem. They could assess the situation and do whatever they see fit. That is what professional associations are for, right?

But yes, it certainly does look unethical to me. I have simply commented on certain information presented here. By all means challenge that information if you know something to be incorrect, but I stand by my comments.

(So please send this post to anyone you like, anywhere in the world. I am sure there are many people who might be interested.)

BTW: I don't really believe you have sent my earlier post anywhere, David. But, if you have, I am sure there are many people here interested in knowing who you sent it to and what you wrote.

Was it Valerio? If so, perhaps you could ask him to email me. (I would be happy to talk to him off-forum - or anyone else for that matter. I would rather not discuss this further here because of Abi saying in her post above she is getting tired of it. Not a good time for Catweasel games, I don't think.)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:20:38 (EDT)
From: DW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks Nigel
Message:
For clearing up your motivation at least. Regarding VP, I'd suggest the reason he didn't contact Abi is as you say because she is NOT even his client. In my view it would be highly unethical TO contact her. So straight away we have two opposing views! I haven't sent your post anywhere and have no intention of doing so. But you know the net and public forums.

Abi saying in her post above she is getting tired of it (by 'it' I presume she means the forum 'debates' on this subject) just doesn't wash at all. If that were the case then the VERY LAST place you would mention it would be on a public internet chatroom where you know pertfectly well it will cause plenty of waves (as we have already seen). Emails, phone calls, letters, depositions, registered mail, whatever, to the relevent people, yes, but posting to THIS SITE? Fire off your slings and arrows girls but it doesn't add up, no matter how you crunch the numbers or spin the words. Tired of the tongues wagging? Sorry, but the bold capital lettered heading on the first post of this thread tells a very different tale.
respectfully,
David

BTW. I notice the Cybercops on LG have gotcha, you cheeky sod!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:06 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: DW
Subject: Re: Thanks Nigel
Message:
What I am weary of is Elan Vital's reluctance to actually DO anything about Jagdeo.

Does that makes things clear for you?

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:54:24 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: DW
Subject: Thanks for flame-free communication, David...
Message:
David:

Abi can better answer what you see as an apparent contradiction in whether or not she is 'tired of it', than I can. But as I see it, she feels a need to keep things public as a form of self-protection - which is what she posted above. At the same time I imagine she either tires of being the subject of endless forum discussions, or tires of EV's endless failure to address the matter properly. Either way, there's no big contradiction that I can see. I am sure she is well and truly sick of Bjorn's attentions, that's for sure.

As to your comment about 'the net and public forums' - I know perfectly well this is a public place (else I wouldn't have been typing things like 'EV monitors please note', would I?) And I have certainly nobody to fear (half my work colleagues know of my cult past and the other half couldn't care less) and if you are thinking legally I think most people would say my post was 'fair comment'.

As to other psychologists I know - they'd probably be interested in offering opinions on Valerio's conduct here. As you say, it may be inappropriate for him to personally approach any of Jagdeo's victims, but that does not make it appropriate to contact their nearest and dearest in a manner that might reasonably be interpreted as 'warning her off', especially where he is personally involved in an investigation. I don't know about ethical guidelines in America - just the UK - that's why I offered to find out.

Joy above even suggests Valerio is bound to report all abuse cases he becomes aware of. That sounds a bit unlikely unless it was his own client, but he must be treading some kind of fine line here, wouldn't you say?

Thanks for using your real name,
Nige

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:54 (EDT)
From: DW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: yes, I agree
Message:
I think Joe asked a pertinent question, being 'what exactly did V say in his trans Atlantic call'? Then I think, shit, what business is it of mine? I really don't know but as you can gather, my inclination is to leave well alone. I found the VP website very intimidating. Guess that's what ex hippie muso artist writers will always think of such calculated corporate claptrap.

There was a story on 60 Minutes here in Oz about a notorious pedeophile who they finally caught and caged. I was thinking of A and S and hoping that for godsake something will get done for them. It's my view that the cogs of justice are turning slowly and surely behind the scenes. I believe patience will win the day and that we shouldn't discuss it here anymore. I don't want to sound flippant but do you think there's a possibility that the delay (if that's what it is) could be fuelled by a general compassion for this sick old fella who has fucked up so badly that the actual realisation of it might actually...you know, duff him?
Ah, the wondering mind...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:00:04 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Valerio's webpage
Message:
Here is how the good doctor likes to present himself to the public.

(I should add that this guy only has the SAME NAME as Dr.V.P. - I cannot say for sure that he IS the same person.)
[ Dr Valerio Pascotto ]

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:51:21 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Valerio's webpage
Message:
Looks like he's the same guy, Nigel, and I hope Abi can get some of his decidedly unethical advice in writing (as evidence, if need be).

Here's another site which has an article he and Timothy Gallwey wrote called 'All for one'. Both that site and the one you found describe Dr Pascotto as the founder of 'Effective Organizational Systems'.

Unt here's a veeeery interestink quote from ze gud Herr Doktor:

'The behavior of frogs offers an interesting analogy for business. Thrown in a pot of scalding water frogs are able to survive by quickly jumping out. However, if placed in lukewarm water that is being heated, they adjust to the rising temperature until they boil to death. Business often parallels the behavior of frogs. If a business maintains an awareness of its strengths and needs, employees continue to develop and learn while the business stays competitive and survives. If managers lull themselves into doing things the usual way, they will not notice the rising temperature until it is too late.'

From Dr. Valerio Pascotto's
Website.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:28:02 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
Has Pascotto ever heard of 'alienation of affection?' It seems to me he is teetering on the edge.

Can you believe what jerks these EV guys are?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:57:29 (EDT)
From: Enjoyinglife Reporter
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Knowledge Session in South Florida
Message:
Knowledge Sessions in South Florida

Ghandi, former leader of a newly independent India and a Miami local propagation team member, happily announced Sunday night, 1 July at the Radisson Deauville Last Resort and Unbelievably Tacky Deco Hotel in Miami Beach, to the four people remaining after the 8:00 p.m. scheduled showing of the broadcast of Maharaji in Portland, Oregon, that 73 profoundly stupid people were granted the gift of Knowledge. The Knowledge sessions took place in Miami Beach in both English and Spanish. The aspirants receiving Knowledge came from as far away as 2 miles from such communities as Hallandale and North Miami Beach, and one even came from as far south as Coral Gables. One aspirant came all the way over from Fort Lauderdale to receive the gift; she expressed her profound disappointment, both with knowledge, and the traffic on I-95 for her return home.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:18:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Enjoyinglife Reporter
Subject: Do you mean 'Lack of Knowledge' session
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:16:28 (EDT)
From: timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Enjoyinglife Reporter
Subject: Re: Knowledge Session in South Florida
Message:
Whoever you are, thank you so much for this! I desperately needed the laugh! Bless you.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:10:39 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a Kabir primer for pwks!!!
Message:
'Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu.' -- Kabir
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:08:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Internet free speech site
Message:
Just found Public Citizen's internet free speech site when reading an article about a recent bulletin board 'anonymous poster' case that came down in NJ appellate court. The link is above.

The article about the NJ case is here:
http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/167851.html

As you can see in the article on the NJ case, in one case the poster wasn't outed, and in the other they were. In both cases, someone had to have a good enough case to get a court to issue a subpena.

What did Bob Dylan say years ago: 'Keep your nose clean, and always carry a lightbulb.' :C)

bests, f
[ Internet Free Speech ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:51:52 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: lael2@bigfoot.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Internet free speech site
Message:
There is so much I want to say, and I feel I need to be anonymous. Yesterday when I first saw Forum 6 I thought that maybe I could be safe here. I have lots of reasons for wanting to be anonymous. I don't know if they're good reasons or not. I feel I can't speak right now unless I can be anonymous. Some of my reasons:

--I'm shy
--I don't want to expose anything about anyone else (For example, if I say, 'My best friend did ______' and you know who I am, then you also know something about my best friend.
--What if my family (parents and brothers and sisters) read here?? I don't want them to know so much about me right now
--Each of us requires a different level of privacy. Why don't we simply acknowledge and respect that?
--Maybe somebody doesn't like me and would be happy to see that I'm suffering.
--Other people might judge me. I don't like being judged. I simply want to say how I'm affected, how I feel, how I'm trying to deal with my feelings and my current life. And I'm happy for feedback, but I just don't trust that everyone would be kind and I don't want too have to deal with 'everybody' knowing how I think and what I'm dealing with internally. And on the internet, you don't even know who knows what about you, since you don't know who reads.

So these are just some of the reasons I would love to remain anonymous, until such time as I may feel free to be me. I would like to know if that is possible and probable here.

On Forum 5 it was quite scary to see what would happen. Once a girl wrote, and Janet immediately posted something like, 'Welcome. I remember you; I went to your wedding' and gave all sorts of information about the poster--prior marriages, etc. That girl never posted again. So this is what I'm afraid of--someone will recognize me and reveal me to everyone. I've thought that giving an email address would help alleviate that possibility--then if someone is just too curious they could email me and I could respond or not.

These are my thoughts. For my own well-being I have a need to tell what I've experienced. I'm kind of bubbling over and I need to talk. I'm not sure where.

Thanks for listening.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:45:55 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: lael2202@yahoo.com
To: Daisy
Subject: To the person who emaile me
Message:
Thank you for your kind note. I find that the email address I gave you will not work except for me to receive mail--I can't respond from it. So I have set up this email account, from which I can also reply. I've composed a response to you, and need you to either (1) send an email to my new address, or (2) give me your email address. It wasn't included in your previous email. Or I could just post my response to you here on Forum 6.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:36:13 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Daisy
Subject: A way to post with no trace
Message:
Hi there Daisy. I am the forum administrator for this forum. My email address is above on this post. If you want to post something completely anonymously where there is no trace to you, you can do the following:

Email me the article you have written that you want to post on this forum.

I will then copy your email onto Windows Notepad and omit any headers or email address and reference to your email.

I will then delete your email from my Hotmail account.

Then I will post your message here (copied from my Windows Notepad copy) and the only trace to anyone will be to me. I live in the UK, by the way.

You might want to use the above method of posting something anonymously here and you won't be putting yourself at any risk. If I read something in your post to me that I think identifies you, I will tell you so and remove it with your permission.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:38:55 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: To Daisy
Message:
With straight-forward honesty like that, the name Daisy is fine with me!
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:49:28 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To Daisy
Message:
You made my day!
Daisy
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:51:24 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: anonymity
Message:
Hi
No one gets attacked only for their anonymity. It's the ones who are distuptive, people get sick of it, and eventually it all washes out.
Janet made a big mistake doing that IMO. So I would be wary as well after reading something like that.
Keep posting and talk if you need to. Exiting the cult is very hard.
I trust the FA here as much as one can trust anyone on the net. He has repeatedly shown that he protects anonymity.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:48:26 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: anonymity
Message:
Thanks, SF, for your endorsement of the FA here. It's good to know.
Daisy
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:33:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: I'll respect your anomymity
Message:
Hi Daisy,

You posed an interesting dilemma. From the short time I've been here I have witnessed outings only from disruptive and threatening premies, but your comment regarding Janet's forward welcome to a premie is a vital to our sensitivity.

I'm sure Janet did not mean or think that it would have chased her away, but the observation is astute, nonetheless.

Many times people post her, without any introduction at all, and they open fire with a comment. This is difficult. Is this person a hit and run antagonist, an EV plant, what?

Introducing yourself the way you did and stating your position is the best way to eliminate any possibility. Also, telling someone who is asking a personal or leading question can be responded to with a request that they NOT ask you that at this point.

I have corresponded with a couple of premies via email that are not quite sure How they feel. I don't pry. I don't have a desire to open people like they are a can of beans.

Human interaction on this forum is no different from human interaction on the streets only the heat is up at certain points by the very nature of our presence here.

How do you react when you tell neighbours, friends, family, and new acquaintances, let alone employers about M? Or do you? I'm sure you exercise discretion as to who you talk to, about what, when you offer personal information about your life and life choices.

That's the same type of awareness you need to have here. Some people will try and push your buttons, but they are only typing onto a cyber home page, you can walk away from a post or a pest anytime. Now practicing that, is entirely anoter story.

I'm sure you will be met with a lot of supportive people. People are not mind-readers though, so it's important to let people know where your boundaries are. You don't HAVE to explain why? It's none of our business. Hope you stick around.

We all have something to learn from each other.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:28:31 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Your advice
Message:
Deborah, thanks for your tips on how to handle onesself on internet forums. I will save your email.

About the Janet incident I mentioned, the girl in question sounded like she considered herself an ex-premie, if I remember correctly. And I don't think Janet intended to be insensitive, just chatty.

Anyway, thanks for the 'street smarts' you're passing along to me.
Daisy

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:10:05 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Daisy
Subject: Re: Your advice
Message:
Hi Daisy,

Happy that hear from you. Feel free to email if you'd like.

See above

p.s. I really the handle DAISY, it's cute.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:58:40 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Thanks Daisy
Message:
Your post was refreshing and honest in its humanity. I do hope you feel free to come here and talk. I'm already interested in what you might have to say!

People do need to be sensitive on these issues, perhaps Janet was just trying to be friendly and overstepped the boundary. This is an open forum and people tend to know each other from the past, so please feel free to reveal as little about who you are as you like.

I'm afraid a site like this does tend to attract trolls (anonymous disruptors or community con artists). There's one particular guy uses multiple aliases to harrass this site generally. Sees himself as a champion of free expression! Perhaps he's just misunderstood. But his problems with owning himself as a whole person are something else.

It's what you have to say that I'm interested in!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:43:13 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Thanks Daisy
Message:
Thank you for responding and for being interested! And for giving a definition of 'trolls.' I had gotten the gist, but I like having an exact definition. 'The Three Billy Goats Gruff' had trolls; do you remember? They stayed under the bridge and tried to capture the goats for dinner. But of course, as in all good stories, the goats outsmarted the trolls and dined on the delicious grass on the other shore. Maybe there was only one troll--I'm not sure.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:59:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Sir Dave is into you having your rights
Message:
... to post any way you please. He's the administrator of this board, and as he says in his post below, you are free to post in whatever way is best for you.

I posted those articles because anonymity has been an issue, and I thought it would give people some stuff to ponder. The Webmaster and main FA of the former Forum V also wanted to alow anons to stay anon, at their own wishes.

peace, be well, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Sir Dave is into you having your rights
Message:
Thank you, Francesca and Sir Dave. Francesca, I do not want to take the time to read the court cases you posted. If you have read them and understand them (which I doubt I could without a lot of time and concentration), would you tell me what the end result was? Who did the court decide for? Did the court find for right-to-privacy or right-to-expose? Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:59:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Cases
Message:
Daisy:

I don't read them all either. They're very fact-driven -- i.e. each situation ends up with its own result based on all the circumstances and issues. And unless the issues are close to a situation I particular care about, no reason to wade through them.

However, for a broad generality, many of cases are brought by businesses who claim they were harmed by what an anonymous poster or poster(s) said about it on a bulletin board. And the business has be wronged enough to file a lawsuit and then issue a subpena to the ISP. It's usually big-time stuff, worth money to someone.

An anonymous poster is not usually outed just because someone complains to the ISP. But that being said, each ISP has its own policy, and the policies have evolved because of court cases and various situations that have happened to the ISP. I would imagine Hotboards is going to stay out of it, because its main business is hosting bulletin boards, and you know, people DO talk.

Hope this helps, and doesn't make it more confusing.

--bets, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:28:17 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks, Francesca.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:03:06 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Daisy
Subject: Anonymity is respected here
Message:
You can be as anonymous as you like. There is no pressure here to identify yourself, whether ex-premie or premie or merely human.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:39:29 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Internet free speech site [nt]
Message:
Don't follow leaders; check your parking meter...
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:40:22 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Don't follow leaders; check your parking meter... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:33:31 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cheatananda's 'chump change' vs. miragey's riches
Message:
Alas, it appears that the modern self-proclaimed Hindu yogi 'Masters' and saints have forgotten about the maya - which has been the downfall of many a deluded and greedy rugu. The inspiration for many a guru, Kabir, wrote:

'Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu.' -- Kabir

Currently, the US media has featured several exposes on other charismatic personality cults. The purveyors of some of these cults present patterns and behaviors which are similar to the concepts/mindsets, abuses, and experiences of many former devotees of miragey, too. Yet, for all the attention the press has given to each of these small-time charlatans, the media has generally ignored miragey ever since he stopped giving public interviews back in the 1970s.

Boy, are these reporters missing out! For instance, Cheatananda [featured herein ] is a petty pickpocket compared to miragey's lavish setup and slick operations. But I think you will appreciate noting the similarities. This greedy guru racket is a common con nowadays -- money, power/mind control over others, sex, booze, etc.

Please Read on:

The high price of enlightenment:

Ex-disciples say Swami Chetanananda leaned on his followers to pay for the trappings of his spiritual organization and for investments that failed:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001


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By Richard Read of The Oregonian staff

'Hone Ames doodled furiously in the kitchen of her Cambridge, Mass., home in 1989.
Even many years later, she still clearly recalls cradling the phone as Swami Chetanananda pressed her for more money in 1989.
'Resist,' Ames wrote in the margin.
But resistance is a slippery slope, Ames recalls Chetanananda saying: If you resist, you end up in a pit, you cannot dig out. The whole point of this spiritual practice is that you've got to commit.
Ames says the swami asked for another $62,500 to invest in the conversion of a run-down New Jersey apartment building into condominiums. Come on, Hone.
Hone. The swami coined the nickname for Ames as one of his closest insiders. He'd tease her about it. Call Hone. Hone on the range. There's no place like Hone.
Now that she's left the swami, the nickname she left behind reminds Ames of the person she says she was: Completely controlled by the man she worshipped and feared as her link to God. She says she remains traumatized by the financial losses and psychological pain she and her family suffered.
Ames, 59, still has her notes from that phone conversation with the guru Nov. 14, 1989. The words 'briar patch' and 'manifestation of fear' appear circled and underlined in the margins. The jottings reveal Ames' doubts as she financed ventures promoted by Chetanananda, the persuasive spiritual leader who now lives with his followers in a refurbished manor in Northeast Portland.
Chetanananda refused repeated requests for an interview with The Oregonian concerning finances and other issues. Last Thursday, he submitted a typed statement in response to a summary of allegations.
Chetanananda did not specifically respond to the allegation that investments he advised had resulted in losses of large sums of money for disciples and for him.
'I have never coerced anyone, period,' he wrote, in apparent reference to an allegation that he had coerced students to give him and the Nityananda Institute valuable gifts, to loan him and the institute money and to invest money to fund an opulent lifestyle.
Ames recalls bearing down on her notes that day in 1989, caught between the man she idolized and the warnings of her father and a financial adviser. She says she wanted to help the swami create a retirement fund for his assistants, whom she pitied for their low pay and lack of benefits.
The year before, Ames had invested $250,000 in the same New Jersey condo deal after what she describes as heavy pressure from the swami. She says he ostracized another disciple who declined, a fate she was anxious to avoid.
Ames deposited the initial investment in an account she held jointly with the swami and one of his assistants. A copy of the wire transfer shows that the guru, using his original name, J. Michael Shoemaker, sent the money to the bank financing the condo conversion, which was developed by the husband of a former girlfriend.
Ames provided The Oregonian with detailed documentation of investments and other transactions from 1988 to 1997, when she left the ashram.
Now Chetanananda was telling Ames they needed more money. Ames doubted him, recalling her financial adviser's prediction that New Jersey's housing market was about to dive. But, she reasoned, the adviser wasn't all-knowing like the swami.
So, on Nov. 16, 1989, bank records show, Ames deposited $62,500 into the joint account. She still has the check for that amount that the swami wrote to Executive House LP the same day.
Ames says she couldn't say no to the guru.


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'People are concerned about teachers because they're afraid they're going to get ripped off. There's no avoiding getting ripped off to some extent in this life.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded Jan. 24, 1988

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Former disciples of Chetanananda say that they and other followers showered him with gifts, including Asian artwork, camera equipment, first-class air tickets and accommodations in Hawaii's Four Seasons Hotel and other luxury hotels.
Newsletters routinely list dozens of members giving thousands of dollars a year to the institute, a tax-exempt church.
Property records show that in 1999, longtime disciple Norman Bodek signed over his Northeast Portland house to the swami's Nityananda Institute, listing it as a charitable contribution. Bodek, who has since left the swami, ran Productivity Inc. The publishing and event-planning company gave jobs to dozens of disciples and -- according to Ames -- paid the guru a monthly retainer.
Money, in addition to spiritual teachings, group meditation and sex with the guru, continues to bind disciples into the guru's inner circle, the former followers say.
Ames was by no means the swami's biggest backer. But she says she dug into her savings, spending an inheritance from her grandmother and other reserves.
Ames says that in 1987, as a college-educated resident of Bloomington, Ind., she joined Chetanananda's group after seeking his advice about her troubled marriage and her mother's declining health. Slowly, she transferred her devotion to God to the swami until she recalls seeing him as a Christlike figure.
Ames viewed Chetanananda as a 'spiritual atomic generator,' a gifted astrologer and an all-knowing sage. When he walked into the room, she felt a rush of devotion and love for the man she considered divine, often leaving her feeling faint.
She said she first invested $100,000 in one of his ventures in April 1988 after he told her about a computer program developed by disciples to pile up profits trading commodities.
Bank statements she produced show that by August, the joint-account balance sank to less than $82,000. Within a year, the balance plunged below $300.
Ames recalls the swami telephoning her at her home late that year with the bad news. She says he told her they'd lost all the money on chromium.
Ames wouldn't let herself cry.
She fought back doubts. This was a test, Ames thought. This was a chance to show that her devotion to the guru meant far more than money.

'I'll move to Portland. I'll either have enough people in that building to support it, or I'll go fly-fishing.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded in December 1992


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Ames studied documents spread across a Boston lawyer's broad kitchen table on an evening in early 1993.
She was about to lend the Nityananda Institute $500,000 so the swami could finally build a proper meditation hall. Chetanananda and his followers had searched for months for new quarters to replace their cramped houses in Cambridge.
They settled on a big brick building in Portland, Laurelhurst Manor, built in 1910 as the Anna Lewis Mann Old People's Home. Property records show that the institute borrowed $840,000 toward the $1.2 million price of the house off Northeast Sandy Boulevard. The institute and disciples later bought -- and still own -- a dozen other houses nearby.
But the big brick building at 1021 N.E. 33rd Ave. needed extensive remodeling. Ames says Chetanananda told her the financial demands put him in a vise.
Ames recalls thinking that whoever came up with the money for the hall would deliver salvation to the messiah.
A written agreement shows that Ames made the $500,000 loan for up to three years. She charged 6 percent interest and asked that her support be anonymous. The institute listed its collateral as a house and land on Martha's Vineyard, the island off Cape Cod where the swami held retreats. The Vineyard property was up for sale.
Ames toyed with the idea of giving all her money to the institute. If this man was God, she says she reasoned, why hold back anything?


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'As a swami, of course, I don't have the usual signposts in life that tell me I'm a success or a failure. For instance, when you're a swami, you don't get a salary.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded Jan. 2, 1993

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Ames says that in April 1994, Chetanananda called her into the study of his suite in the Portland manor. She saw his dark expression and braced for trouble.
Ames had moved into the big brick building in 1993. Disciples had beautifully refurbished the structure, renaming it the Rudrananda Ashram. They added a spacious meditation hall financed by Ames' loan, with a two-story arched ceiling and a prominent statue of Nityananda, the Indian guru credited with beginning the swami's lineage.
Fresh flowers arrived by air from California, former members say. French wine flowed in the swami's suite, they remember, with the empty bottles taking a discreet path to the garbage bin past disciples who shunned alcohol and meat.
But Chetanananda appeared pained to Ames as he stood by the oval oak table in his office. Ames says he told her that the New Jersey condo deal had collapsed. All the money was gone.
In fact, court records show, the troubled condo company, Executive House Associates LP, had filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy three years before. By 1994, lawyers were fighting over the last scraps.
Later Ames asked the swami for documentation so she could write off her loss for taxes. He became furious and picked up a chair as though to hit her, she recalls.
Ames says the swami told her to talk with his brother, attorney John Robert 'Bob' Shoemaker, also a disciple. She still has the memo she received from Shoemaker saying that he had no information concerning the bankruptcy.
'As you know,' Shoemaker wrote, 'the partnership never listed you as a partner. The investment was made in Swamiji's name, and his taxpayer i.d. number was used.'
'Egotism, . . . the fundamental sickness of human beings, is what people come here to be cured of. And you know, I run a hospital. I live here 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I'm on call for the last 25 years. This is not a benefit to me. It is a benefit to you.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded in January or February 1996
Ames says Chetanananda paid a visit in February 1996 to the ashram office where she edited his lectures on salary from Productivity Inc. Ames remembers him saying Productivity was in trouble and might stop paying his retainer.
She heard him say ashram finances were dire. The Martha's Vineyard property still hadn't sold. Moreover, Pennzoil, owner of the neighboring Jiffy Lube on Sandy Boulevard, might build a carwash on a vacant lot next door to the meditation hall, spoiling the ambiance.
A written agreement shows that the next month, on March 8, 1996, she signed a one-year extension of her loan to the Nityananda Institute. Some of the pressure was off the institute's finances.


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'I probably try to do too much already, managing this place, carrying on my head the debt load that it represents. I don't know if any of you have been $2.5 million in debt before. All of you who have money pressures on you know what that's like. Well, magnify it a bunch.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded April 2, 1996

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Walter Delaney, the rumpled, white-haired fire chief on the western tip of Martha's Vineyard, spent April 2, 1996, poking through the ashes of the house where Chetanananda once held summer retreats.
Pop singer James Taylor had spotted the fire raging late March 31 across the bay from his home. Taylor called the Gay Head Volunteer Fire Department, made up of a crew of carpenters and fishermen.
Fire trucks raced down Lobsterville Road. Firefighters found the two-story house blazing. They struggled to pump water from a nearby stream. But the wood-frame building was a total loss.
Delaney lists the cause of the fire -- which broke out hours after six disciples had finished a weekend of painting and cleaning -- as undetermined.
The fire, it turned out, was manna from heaven. The property would be easier to sell without the house. And the institute's insurance firm paid several hundred thousand dollars to the Nityananda Institute for the loss, according to a company spokesman who declined to give the exact amount.
The month after the fire, the institute completed its purchase of the vacant lot from Jiffy Lube. Disciples in the great hall financed by Ames could continue chanting and meditating undisturbed. And the grassy lot was perfect for running the ashram's six Rottweilers, attack-trained by a man flown out from Boston.


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'The love and devotion we display toward a teacher is a crucial part of the transformation process.' -- Chetanananda, in his book, 'Choose to be Happy,' Rudra Press, 1996

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Ames says she felt Chetanananda glaring at her across the desk in his suite Jan. 1, 1997.
She recalls watching the swami's face turn bright red as he yelled at her, faulting her for skipping a kitchen chore. She says she had merely overlooked the job on an assignment sheet and was devastated that he would think she had missed it intentionally.
And then it dawned on her.
My God. This man doesn't even know who I am.
She says her years of doubts about Chetanananda bubbled to the surface. The temper tantrums. The false predictions. The disastrous investment schemes. The insults and put-downs. His sexual conduct.
Ames stayed inside the ashram for several more months, agonizing over her allegiance. During this time, she says, she was pressured to convert her $500,000 loan into a gift.
But something had changed. She didn't think of Chetanananda as God anymore.


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'There is one thing I want to make really clearly, and that is I am a liberated soul. . . . I think it may not be possible for a liberated soul to live in the company of human beings.' -- Chetanananda, on Aug. 12, 1997, in a taped talk

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A former disciple's snapshot shows Sharon Ward, the guru's right-hand woman, standing barefoot beside visiting white-robed monks at the Portland ashram. Flames sputtered from the Portland ashram's mortgage papers in the institute's fire pit in July 1997.
Ex-disciples recall Ward, wearing a crisp white blouse and long flowery skirt, clapping as Chetanananda thanked disciple Kerry Ernest Smith. Smith had succeeded in the bakery business after running the ashram-affiliated bakery company in Bloomington years before. Now, Smith had returned to donate $1.7 million to pay off the ashram's mortgage, Ward said.
But Ward faced still more challenges:
The institute would soon have to repay Ames the $500,000 plus interest.
The Martha's Vineyard acreage hadn't sold.
And Melinda Mandell, a former institute member, was suing Chetanananda and the institute. Court records show that she alleged misrepresentation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, breach of contract and racketeering. Mandell sought more than $4 million, claiming the swami had never delivered on a promise to provide ashram housing and instruction if she left her law practice in Boston.
Mandell claimed in the suit that the institute was not a charitable church organization but a for-profit enterprise operated for the benefit of Chetanananda, Ward and other key followers including Bob Shoemaker, the guru's brother and Ward's husband.
Lawyers for the swami and the institute denied all of Mandell's allegations, later describing the racketeering claim as 'confusing, jumbled and scattershot.' The lawyers said that institute representatives denied they had promised ashram instruction, and that Mandell failed to prepare to find employment in Oregon.
The parties ultimately would settle the suit in 1999, under confidential terms. But as complaints and summonses flew in the summer of 1997, the Nityananda Institute began requiring members to sign a form releasing the swami and his church from any liability.
The form said the student understood that Chetanananda, 'the abbot,' did not provide counseling, health care or confidential relationships. 'I accept that I am fully responsible for myself and my life,' the form said, 'including my own actions, behavior, thoughts, financial status, health, relationships, and any other condition.'
By Aug. 3, 1997, Ward, the ashram's executive director, wrote in a letter to Ames, that she had secured a bank mortgage. She paid off the $500,000 loan to Ames and began negotiating interest payments with her.
After the mortgage-burning ceremony and a retreat session for institute members, Ward used some lines from Basavanna, a 12th-century poet, in a fund-raising letter. A copy of the Aug. 7, 1997, draft reads: 'Can there be devotion in words and more words? Can there be devotion unless the body is spent, unless the heart is spent, unless the wealth is spent?'
The letter continued: 'Swamiji has been working so hard, and giving so deeply and freely of himself, that by the end of the retreat, he was exhausted, and so hoarse that he could barely speak.
'In his brief and beautiful closing remarks, he said to us repeatedly, 'Don't hold back.' '


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'If you're the person who's (expletive) judging what work you're going to do all the damn time, what do you need a teacher for? . . . I am constantly meeting people who are sitting in judgment of what I am communicating to them. You can't believe how frustrating it is for me to see people who think they're better than me.' -- Chetanananda, Aug. 28, 1997, in a taped talk, three weeks after the fund-raising letter

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Ames says she moved out of the ashram Dec. 9, 1997. She twisted her ankle carrying a box out to her car.
She says that no one asked her why she was leaving: No one wished her well.
'I bust my guts out for people who mostly wonder, you know, 'What in the hell happened?' and 'What's that son of a bitch trying to get from me anyway?' Well, the truth of the matter is, I'm after your money. (laughter from audience). Or, I could be after your bodies. (more laughter). -- Chetanananda, during a talk in February 1998, after Ames left
In 1998, Martha's Vineyard conservationists hiked across the Nityananda Institute's island acreage, admiring the breathtaking view across Menemsha Bight. They had eyed the property five years before, but their organization usually avoided land with buildings.
Now minus the house, the secluded 28 acres were attractive, with their rolling hills, dense woodland, wetlands, streams and a peat bog. That September, Martha's Vineyard Land Bank commissioners approved the purchase of the property for $1.2 million.
The Nityananda Institute gained some breathing room. Ames got her interest money back. But more trouble loomed for Chetanananda.

'You are a cowardly, vengeful, venomous witch. . . . I do not sexually abuse women. . . . I have never cheated you in business. . . . If you don't stop these slanderous lies and harassment of members of our community, I will sue you. . . . I will make the process as ugly and expensive as humanly possible.' -- Swami Chetanananda, May 14, 1998, in a letter to Ames'


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You can reach Richard Read at 503-294-5135 or richread@aol.com.


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-

Peace and lentils,
[ Page Link ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:48:37 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Swami C.
Message:
Hi Such. Thanks for keeping us updated on the lastest fucked-up excuse for a guru. I met him back in the seventies, a few years after Rudi died, back when he was still Michael Shoemaker. My first impression of him was that he was a pretentious pompous asshole.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:47:21 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: interesting stuff
Message:
Yeah, people are getting hip to these guys.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:20:09 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My quick note to the Oregonian reporter
Message:
Howdy,

I've been reading your series in the Oregonian and enjoying it greatly. I love it when these crooks are exposed.

Don't suppose you remember the boy guru from the early seventies, Maharaji? Now there's a guy who's been able to fly under the radar for a long time. But now, the jig's up on him too, thanks to the internet.

If you would like to check him out, I'm pretty sure there's a local contact in Portland some where. See www.ex-premie.org and www.maharaji.org or www.enjoyinglife.org for more information.

Oh, and don't be too surprised to hear from other folks either. We former devotees have been having a lively discussion about this for years at http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=ex-premieforum.

Best Wishes,

Gerry Lyng

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:07:46 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: My quick note to the Oregonian reporter
Message:
Hi Gerry,

Have you considered sending email to author?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:22:49 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Duh? Neglect question inabove post
Message:
Sorry Gerry,

I just read the subject heading after I posted.

I also sent a comment to the author as well. What a creep, this Michael Shoemaker. The arrogance is mind-boggling.

Cults need much more exposure. Cult thinking and the transference of faith, trust, etc. to another person is full fledged wickedness.

It's amazing how all this shit is hitting the fan at the same time, isn't it?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:37:26 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Good, the word's getting out! (nt [nt]
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:04:52 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: such
Subject: No need for that
Message:
There's no need to put 'NT' if you click the no text function.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: All
Subject: I'm just getting it out of me system!!
Message:
Over on The 'Lifes Great' forum SC commented on my post here about my experiences compared to others, specifially David Anderson. This prompted a bit of another reaction from me which probably belongs here. I have said a lot of this before so sorry if this sounds repetitive. Anyway I am taking a break for a week or two so I'm afraid I won't be able to talk here for a while. I'll leave you with this rant anyway for what it's worth!

SC wrote
what's the difference between these two guys?' All I could come down to was... one experienced something inside that was SO profound it overrode everything on the outside - everything. The other had a pleasant experience of peace/contentment but still related that in some small way to or about Maharaji. Even an attempt to get away from the M association glued you more to it perhaps, whereas a true experience of the heart has nothing to do with outside M. I'm slowly forming the hypothessis that many premies did NOT take full responsibility for their own inner experience of meditation but somehow kept it all bound up with the external M, ashram etc. This I believe has caused untold problems.

I also experienced 'something inside that was SO profound it overrode everything on the outside'. for many many years. I don't deny that.
I appreciate your comments and agree with a lot of what you say although I would claim that I am not confusing my experience of 'the external M, ashram etc.' with my inner experience. I can see how the external M was responsible for the external ashrams, what he wanted to happen,and of course, everything he said and gave 'agya' (=Master' s orders) about.

The fact remains that the external M, however much one is fond and non-judgemental of him, encouraged us to surrender our lives in a very practical way. ie. ashrams, satsang, service and meditation, 'agya' and all that stuff that nobody dare mention nowadays. As I said over on Forum 6, although I enjoyed myself much of the time, I have very mixed feelings in retrospect about my time as a 'grunt' premie in the ashram. I now judge that my talents were wasted, that I was, rather than being 'looked after' or 'cared for' by Maharaji, that I became a part of a rather sick society from which I basically gained zilch and that Maharaji was not in control of the whole thing . Frankly I was much happier meditating at my parents home and away from the idiots I subsequently got lumped in with. I was young, naive and yet trusting and sincere and that trust led me to do exactly what maharaji (the man) recommended. Maharaji said he was the Master and that it was paramount to 'obey' him -follow his agya. It was a heavy trip which I submitted to in good faith.

Not all ashram premies were idiots but there were some very weird ambitious people there ( you know - people who painfully and constantly pined to be instructors and were always blubbing about becoming PAM's) and they tended to over-rule quiet types who just ate humble pie and did what they were told imagining that they were being looked after. Looked after! Some hope. More like forgotten and trodden underfoot in the mad machinations of the organisation to 'serve' Maharaji at all costs.

Maharaji encouraged us to be so consumed and pre-occupied with being 'devotees' that premies just lost their humanity - they became unkind, treated each other without respect - after all Maharaji always was yelling how useless we all were -and now I think that those who are still stuck in that mode are just sad cases. Premies seem to be so obsessed with Maharaji and their great experience -in fact they are generally the one's who I would accuse of 'having a pleasant experience of peace/contentment but still related that in some small way to or about Maharaji'. Show me a premie who doesn't associate their inner experience with Maharaji. I agree that this is the big problem - I just think you've got it back to front suggesting that I am the one who is suffering this delusion.

I now think that this sort of Hindu ashram trip was just a prescription for total squashing of the spirit along with the ego. In fact I think the whole philosophy that Shri Hans and the rest of those Indian Gurus spouted was effectively just intimidating, manipulative, dogmatic, medieval religious power play. I, along with many others were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and got hit by this seductive yet abusive trap. The devotional side and the 'love -tripping' is hugely over-played in my opinion- and also covers a multitude of sins. Maharaji may be a really nice guy who some people can get along with in a normal kind of way but he is responsible for himself believing in and relentlessly promoting that surrender the reins of your life to the EXTERNAL me stuff. He even used to say 'don't worry about your experience -just surrender to me (do Satsang,service and meditation and darshan and nothing else) and the rest will follow.

I find the devotee types can be pretty creepy and unnatural - you just get this feeling that nothing matters to them apart from their own narcissistic obsession with Maharaji and the experience they associate with him as some kind of God-like Master. They sometimes lost their natural respect towards others in the process .
Believe me I often suffered and got walked over by these types and now I feel justified in feeling that I have absolutely no wish to be a part of any autocratic organisation that has this negative transforming effect on people.

Anyway I increasingly believe that the experiences of meditation are also very open to interpretation and that the way Maharaji sets things up so that he appears, hints that he is, the great divinely appointed 'giver' is misleading. Actually if you look at the whole thing from a psychological perspective it's easy to see how this stuff works. For me the current fascinating mystery is what is really going on here in the universe beyond this transparent cultic stuff. Why are we here? Certainly not to be chewed up in some devotional cult. My premie friends feel they know it all and their natural incination to really analyse and learn has been apparently put on hold. They deserve to be disturbed in their false peace for their own good even if it irritates them to be shaken in their slumbers.

My best school friend became a premie with me - he has built his whole life on knowledge and Maharaji and meditates hour upon hour every day and has never deveoped a career or anything. I'm not kidding -he meditates HOURS every day and what good it has done is rather questionable. This guy was one of the many devout premies around here who get together at programs, and afterwards party on down - generally the first thing they do after their morning's fix of a couple of hours of meditation is light up a fat one. I think that is telling that they need to anaesthetise themselves to reality so much. Anyway this guy exemplifies the premie types who just want to traipse around the world getting 'darshan' but can't be bothered to hold down a job and feel contemptuous about the world in which we all live and the dreaded rampant 'mind' which all but they are mislead by.

So he is now in prison in Germany for smuggling coke - English town are populated by such sad cases of 40 and 50 somethings who spout high morals and great PROFOUND experiences but their lives tell a different story. Why the gulf between what premies (including maharaji if you will) say and what they live and do?

The fact is I was abjectly miserable as a squashed being living in the ashram and now I am immeasurably happier having reclaimed my brain and control of my life. I making a better job of my life than Maharaji did. He was wrong and I should not have trusted him. He highjacked my promising future and pretended that his doctrine of humilaiation was ggod for my soul. People say I sound bitter. If that is the case it is justified, appropriate and a reaction to what I experienced. For me it is a part of moving on to tackle this subject and not to just bury or forget my true feelings about what happened. I opened my heart completely and trustingly to Maharaji and sacrificed my being -trusting that a diet of Knowledge alone would be totally fulfilling to my soul. No way was this the case. It was not enough. There were times in the ashram when I was experiencing 'Holy Name -Nectar' and the rest -pumping through my body but in my heart I was miserable in that situation - sitting for hour upon hour in melt-down all weekend satsangs - absolutely mind-numbingly boring and torturously repetitive. Soul Food? I don't think so. Do you see Maharaji sitting for hours watching videos and meditating and doing things he doesn't enjoy? No way! Oh but of course, he has done penance in a previous incarnation as the 'humblest of humble premies' I suppose!

And his kids??? not for them the humble path either I guess. Really I would like to hear what they have to say about the dreadful stuff their dad put us lot through when we were their age. Maybe they would think twice about taking on or endorsing the family business if they had to surrender their BMW's , houses, horses, boy-friends, drinks, teenage drug experimentation, super priviledged life-style, holidays, playing around with music and video production and fun hi-tech stuff etc. to face the prospect of a lifetime of being some nameless, egoless blob doing a brainless menial endless task in some dreary grey British northern town with only the forlorn and desperate hope that the distant master may one day pluck them from obscurity and bless them with the wonderful opportunity to bow down and kiss his foot.

maybe if they had been Indian peasants this fate would have been comparatively heavenly - but for more sophisticated, educated and hopeful young westerners looking forward to a happy fullfilling future - following Maharaji was like being cut off in their prime -like being lured by the Pied Piper into a dark cave and shut in forever away from the pleasures of the world. Hell is described as the lonely experience of being cut off from the love of man and God. That was my experience of being in the ashram.

To me the whole thing seems so hypocritical and wrong.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:49:06 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: I'm just getting it out of me system!!
Message:
Not all ashram premies were idiots but there were some very weird ambitious people there ( you know - people who painfully and constantly pined to be instructors and were always blubbing about becoming PAM's) and they tended to over-rule quiet types who just ate humble pie and did what they were told imagining that they were being looked after. Looked after! Some hope. More like forgotten and trodden underfoot in the mad machinations of the organisation to 'serve' Maharaji at all costs.

IMO, it's still very much the same. To paraphrase a quote from an old friend-- M's cult is a place where all premie pigs are upwardly mobile, while premie lambs are led to slaughter.

Btw, great post Patrick!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:32:11 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I remember that quote
Message:
HST In a world ruled by swine all pigs are upwardly mobile
I think the leader he was referencing was Nixon but funny how it carries through.
I tend to agree the more articulate who come here have the same agenda, to defend their 'teacher'. But at least they are communicating instead of spitting hair balls or looking for scratching posts.

Good to see you around Joey. Hope all is well.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:55:23 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: I remember that quote
Message:
I tend to agree the more articulate who come here have the same agenda, to defend their 'teacher'. But at least they are communicating instead of spitting hair balls or looking for scratching posts.

Well Yeah, right seems to be articulate enough. Is this an example of NOT 'spitting hair balls or scratching posts?'

Speaking of that stuff, how's your special EX premie leader's brain cancer? Are they going to operate or let him sink into dementia? Ooops, kitty out of the bag on that?

But since making phone calls and e-mails is what you're after...you know there's a lot of interesting things about a lot of you guys, too, sweetie...lots of offices, professional societies, parent-teacher associations...OH YEAH...is that the game you wanna play? Think hard....think very hard before you commit all the EX premies to this kind of war, sweetie...

And what about your new found friend SC?

I guess I'll just have to keep my eyes more open. I'd hate to miss out on any new trends:)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:10:42 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Yeah, right = vile!
Message:
Yeah, right him sound like David Whitla, aka Catweazle.

Him sad man, no? Me think him bad also. Maybe he just mad. Heh. It his problem, innit?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:01:17 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: gotta agree
Message:
Others have been praising Andersen's posts. That's all I meant.
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