bill-July 19 1966, old man -:- rawat died slipping on soap in shower nt -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:40:20 (EDT)

__ As true as your -:- DNA/Claudia theory NT -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:42:53 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- M devotees destroy planet -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:40:13 (EDT)

__ bill -:- How about -m jousts with windmills-? [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:45:48 (EDT)

Abi -:- Dear Elan Vital -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 22:40:30 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- PS -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:04:25 (EDT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- who runs EV? you-know-who! -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:51:28 (EDT)

gerry -:- Kah-Boom Ba! -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:54:26 (EDT)

Francesca :C) -:- Traditional Family Property org or cult? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:33:51 (EDT)

__ such -:- Oh,that's just dumb rich SS + WPC reincarnates [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:10:46 (EDT)

Joy -:- Hot Idea for an Enterprising Entrepreneur -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:15:09 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Hot Idea for an Enterprising Entrepreneur -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:20:05 (EDT)

__ Francesca :) -:- Hello Joy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:36:46 (EDT)

__ __ Richard -:- Here's an example of how it might work -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:02:54 (EDT)

Announcing -:- A new ex forum for people who don't.. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:46:53 (EDT)

__ Nige -:- Hey, relax, Way ...:) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:02:55 (EDT)

__ __ Way -:- Re: Hey, relax, Way ...:) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:30:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: Hey, relax, Way ...:) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:09:10 (EDT)

Silvia -:- I swear in the Holy Bible that I will -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:44:17 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Fuckin BEST OF FORUM**** -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:14:51 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Re: Fuckin BEST OF FORUM**** -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:07:53 (EDT)

__ SF (selene) -:- premies will say -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:36:39 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Re: premies will say -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:34:01 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Who said premies were clones...? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:02:22 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Re: Who said premies were clones...? -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:32:06 (EDT)

PatC -:- Without the Master you cannot come home -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:05:30 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- Good post PatC! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:18:04 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Re: Without the Master -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:15:47 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- PatC, way to go!.......... [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:21:43 (EDT)

__ Gina (Home Girl) -:- Beautiful story, Pat, & point well made [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:18:27 (EDT)

__ la-ex -:- Pat,a perfect example of why EPO is so good... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:22:00 (EDT)

__ Way -:- Pat - a suggestion -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:57:48 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Re: Without the Master you cannot come home -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:56:32 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Re: Without the Master you cannot come home -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:20:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Oh my - splitting hairs -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:46:37 (EDT)

__ Mercedes -:- Re: Without the Master you cannot come home -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:22:33 (EDT)

__ John Keats -:- all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:43:37 (EDT)

Ian Dury -:- Please don't miss this -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:12:38 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- thanks.Now,next shift at LG,someone, please?! haha -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 02:14:49 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- angels: take a wing-man to LG -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:22:32 (EDT)

__ Gina -:- Roger that, Such, bogies @ all o'clock's! -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 19:15:43 (EDT)

David -:- This is as it is -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:52:17 (EDT)

__ bill -:- 'a bit'? You mean a royal lot! [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:44:59 (EDT)

__ PatC -:- Re: This is as it is - and it is okay -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:57:08 (EDT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Pat - as I see it banning a troll... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:31:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- True Nigel -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:09:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- you were the best FA Nige -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:10:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- You say that to all the FAs -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:08:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ SF -:- yes you do -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:17:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Gave it to Roger? Roger??? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:28:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Actually, Anth was the best FA... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:36:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- it was really more like R and R -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:31:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Funny you should say that... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:51:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ SF -:- calling 'our' bluff -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:05:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: calling 'our' bluff -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:18:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- this email bounced nige -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:38:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I am not surprised..dyslexic fingers.. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:46:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- did I say r)ob oh I mean Blob -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:21:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- this editor made me do it -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:25:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- go for it Selene and Nige -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:13:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Sorry, I can't do it... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:24:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And my suggested guidelines -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:27:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Louella Parsnip -:- Sounds good to me... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:07:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, how about... (response to CW below) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:05:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Forget it-Too many rules -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:10:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- yeah no more new ex's -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:19:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Very on topic Selene -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:46:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- easy answer -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 15:03:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- b) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:13:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: b) PS: Before forewarned! -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:15:42 (EDT)

Bjørn E. -:- The right to redressing myself. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:55:49 (EDT)

__ Janet Schwartz -:- Re: The right to redressing myself. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 22:26:25 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- human rights and medication -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:41:44 (EDT)

__ __ Bjørn E. -:- If 'Absence of empathy is evil' - -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:15:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- forgive -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:37:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Thanks Abi -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:09:26 (EDT)

__ mama -:- Re: The right to redressing myself. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:28:27 (EDT)

__ Marianne -:- Go see your therapist, Bjorn -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:19:57 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Re: The right to redressing myself. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:37 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Well put :} [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:30:53 (EDT)

__ __ Bjørn E. -:- To Bill etc. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 03:03:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ bill -:- etc. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:06:35 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Nollidge cures Bjorn !!! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:20:32 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- And a touch of nostalgia before you go... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:45:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: And a touch of nostalgia before you go... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:41:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ Bjørn E. -:- You are a liar, and you know it Gerry -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:06:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Tell me where the lie is, bim -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:15:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn A -:- Re: Tell me where the lie is, bim -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:20:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Fire away Bim Doubtfire -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:40:19 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- 'we had to surrender to his program' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:12:19 (EDT)

__ Ian Dury -:- Does THIS sound familiar? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:21:47 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: 'we had to surrender to his program' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:51 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- like day job view, er deja vu [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:15:00 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:27:35 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:43:16 (EDT)

PatC -:- Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:23 (EDT)

__ Carlos -:- It was thru EPO I found Lifes Great, -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:54:26 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:19:08 (EDT)

__ CW -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:57:41 (EDT)

__ __ PatC -:- I don't agree, Pussy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:20:09 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- LG:pwks' denial;flamed me 4 discussing m-LOL [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:45:32 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:04:03 (EDT)

__ __ Carlos -:- RR, David isn't the only premie willing to -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:33:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- You are correct Carlos -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:57:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Members of both the premie & ex hate -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:17:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I do my best to ignore ignoramuses -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:19:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I think it is (as most fools who use it -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:43:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- I disagree, Carlos -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:04:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I meant that sharing my experiance in -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:23:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: I disagree, Carlos - me too -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:21:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Pat, you can contribute on LG without -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:27:59 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EDT)

__ __ PatC -:- You answered your own question -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:31:41 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Wrong crux -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:26:34 (EDT)

__ SF -:- It's like any newsgroup -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:56 (EDT)

__ __ ps from SF (selene) -:- the here that I meant -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:01:56 (EDT)

__ Gray Davis -:- It's the cheese (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:00:08 (EDT)

AJW -:- Hey Dave. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:24:23 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- If I may be more forthcoming...:) -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:18:20 (EDT)

__ __ Ian Dury -:- Hey Nigel -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:41:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Ian Dury? I thought you were dead.. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:51:00 (EDT)

__ Francesca :) -:- Hey Dave. I third that. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:52:53 (EDT)

__ PatC -:- Re: Hey Dave - I second that -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:42:48 (EDT)

wolfie -:- a little entertainment -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:19 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Wolfie, what was the rawat kids video like? [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:47:22 (EDT)

crabby Horse }( -:- Mr. D. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:01:56 (EDT)

__ Mr D -:- Re: Mr. D. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:59:32 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Re: Mr. D. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:08:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ Crabby Horse }( -:- yah -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:05:41 (EDT)

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:40:20 (EDT) From: bill-July 19 1966, old man Email: None To: All Subject: rawat died slipping on soap in shower nt Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:42:53 (EDT) From: As true as your Email: None To: bill-July 19 1966, old man Subject: DNA/Claudia theory NT Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:40:13 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: All Subject: M devotees destroy planet Message:

Have you seen the 'new' posting on 'The Truth About Maharaji', that 'Drug Money Finances Maharaji'. Can I suggest 'Maharaji supports Nazis' on the basis that he likes German cars. And 'Maharaji devotees destroy planet' on the basis that PwK use presticides. And 'World poverty caused by Maharaji' on the basis that if he had discovered unlimited food and water the poor would be better off. You guys aren't tryiing. PT

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:45:48 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: How about -m jousts with windmills-? [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 22:40:30 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: Dear Elan Vital Message:

EV: I have to stress again that I find it unconscionable that Dr Pascotto contacts my father. LEAVE HIM ALONE. Tell your psychologists AND your lawyers to leave my father alone. If you wish to say something, do so here in this public forum or contact me through the appropriate chanels. You can push his buttons all you like but remember that I think for myself. I am no-longer a member of your cult and your mind games have a limited effect on me. You put me through hell before, during and after Amaroo and I am not going back there again. I am not going to kiss your feet. So Valerio, either gather the courage to contact me directly or not, but leave my father alone. And the same applies to your lawyers. Is that FRANK enough for you? Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:04:25 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Abi Subject: PS Message:

Who runs Elan Vital? It wouldn't be Maharaji would it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:51:28 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Abi Subject: who runs EV? you-know-who! Message:

Abi, if a cult psychologist [dat's a real oxymoron, for ya] contacted your family, then m's cult is just trying to manipulate you guys and milk your family for any info or anything said that they might use to then distort and undermine the victims' accounts of Jagdeo's crimes against children. Also, I am seeing that most of the premies posting at LG would rather smear those of us oldtimers who bear witness, instead of opening their plugged up ears to listen carefully. They called me a liar the last 2 days -- for mentioning my old housemates Marolyn and Nouri in a post. At least the exes don't all band together like jackals to lie and defame people speaking the truth. Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:54:26 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Kah-Boom Ba! Message:

Here's a repost from Lifes Great by our very own swami suchabanana. Take it away, swamiji! Check EV bs revisionist FAQs and ask yerself: 'have I been used today?' Fact: this lil' ol' swami does not accept money for revealing the truth [and never has], not Rolls Royces, Ferraris, nor extra-marital blonde devotee nookie action, multiple mansions, Rolexes, jet planes, yachts, Presidential and Royal hotel suites, devotee servant/slaves, million dollar recording studio for a total musical ignoramus, 'bigshot' gurupie status, honcho front-row seats at guru personality worship events, or anything else material or as a perquisite. Let's look at those 3 criteria again, mangled tangle (wango tango, the pseudonym of the person to whom the post was directed--ed): 1. centralized control by a charismatic leader - Ok, who are the other speakers who may speak freely and unscripted at the cult events, who is the central personality on the Big Brother vids, who keeps reinforcing the concept of the need for a master, the need to obey and follow the one master, never leave room for doubt in your mind about him or the cult, the pre-eminence of the master over the techniques, the format for every event, the control of the message, what to say to your friends and new people -- i.e. how to be a mindless cloned zombie? Who else is on equal footing with miragey in the cult? who really controls all the assets of Seva? who tells the people at EV what to do, even though he is not officially the president or CEO? Who has exclusive use [as the owner] of a yacht he does not legally own? Who told premies not to do drugs or alcohol, but made close associates promise secrecy [x-rating] about his own indulgences -- the fearless leader, nay, the 'imperfect master' - weaving one tangled web after another of public and private cheat and deceit. Who really controls the message, the medium, the money, the spotlight, and manipulates the minds of trusting people? 2. an us-versus-them mentality that isolates: how many pwks have not experienced this cult mindset, to some extent? or the we know something, you don't mindset, or they're a cult, but we're not mindset, or the media is just out to get m. mindset, or the hateful ex-premies must be in their minds mindset,etc.? 3. a lack of tolerance for dissent: see, as soon as pwks post here with criticism of miragey, some of the resident premie.hate hyenas attack the honest and well-meaning pwk critics. Hey, you can have meditation [if you like (or just forget it)] AND dump the false and greedy guru/master empowerment trip as utter baloney and as irrelevant and deceitful spiritual baggage. Frankly, I urged some tolerance from all at epo for premies; yet, I'm met here with bs attacks from ignorant people who think credibility is measured in: p.c. cultspeak and cultthink, or how many millions one has - born-again capitalists, or whether someone was a gurupie social climber or a cult celeb who fathered a premie daughter out of wedlock [like Mike N.] and shirked his duty as a real father the whole time lil' Jenny was growing up - in order to selfishly pursue the material illusion of glittery fame and wealth. An objective observer might view that as a pathetic waste of human potential and lives! So, that's the kind of spirituality people here learned from miragey's tangled web and his example - what a mangled tangle, indeed! They've learned selfishness, gluttony, materialist addiction, codependencdy to m., moral irresponsibility, legal irresponsibility, to ignore glaring m. and cult abuses, hypocrisy, misuse of donations, and stick their thumbs in their ears and their heads in the sand when it comes to the truth of the cult and the actual unedited history. 'meaningful dialogue'? haha yeah, right! some of these pwks have forgotten how to use their brains -- too much brainwashing, too much surrendering and buying into an imperfect flawed kindergarten master. m. used to say: 'you are accepting this knowledge, you are not accepting me.' But, the fact is, you don't receive knowledge w/o at least going through the motions of buying into his whole master and tech monopoly scam. This knowledge is free, right? so, stop sending any donations to EV [the money will just be misused or wasted, anyway] and especially those personal checks to miragey the manipulator's post office box. At my knowledge session, the instructor said repeatedly: 'if you have millions, give millions.' Even after breaking off contact from the cult psychos who were harassing my family, I still got pleas for money, money, money... to support what? m's presidential suites, luxury planes, luxury cars, servants, fatty food, and perverse cult megalomania -- which is an abomination to genuine spirituality and to the traditions of ascetics and down-to-earth teachers who have not parlayed twisted superstitious yoga into selfish riches and temporal power for themselves -- on the backs of poor devotees. 'credibility'? No one, NO one, here has shown me any, so far. Instead, I see the vacuous muddled minds, inflated egos, and selfish hearts of the fallen deluded devotees of a fallen greedy rugu... the truth hurts, rotten veges... a mangled tangle. I've got nothing against premies, except those who lie for and defend miragey's and EVI's 'cheat and deceit'. I'm a pwk, too, after all, and was a loyal deluded, dedicated premie, too, for almost 30 years -- at great sacrifice to my career, my family, and my lifestyle. satsang, service, and meditation was actually a way of life for many of us who weren't 'bigshots'. too bad miragey was a fake guru and a fraud as a respectable human being -- a demented, insatiable, addicted, imperfect master who didn't even meditate himself or follow his own rules or guidelines for living... If one compares the history, trappings, and workings of the Rajneesh cult, the Sai Baba cult, and the miragey cult, the parallels and similarities are overwhelming... but, let's save that for another tea-time. Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:33:51 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: All Subject: Traditional Family Property org or cult? Message:

A lunchtime tale of cultdom: Whooie. Forgot about M-b-Jesus. I was down on the mall and there were these guys with light brown suits, and red scarfy things tossed over their upper chests and shoulders. They had leaflets and were trying to engage passers-by, but I ducked into the store as one of them descended upon a funky person on a park bench. They were in the part of downtown where the street preachers take turns yelling at people during lunch hour, but I was taking a late lunch. As I left the store and walked by the square near the big Catholic cathedral, the brown suiters were now gathered in a military-like stance and formation, with two standard-bearers up at the front holding aloft red heraldic flags that said 'Traditional Family Property.' There was one with a text of some sort, leading some sort of low mumbo jumbo chant. As I passed them and was about 1/2 block away, they ended the mumble with a group cheer, 'Traditional family property! Traditional family property! Traditional family property! USA! USA! USA!' All I could find on the web was that they were listed everwhere along with the Family Values Coalition and such as supporter's for Ashcroft's nomination for US Attorney general. Yi! Anybody know about these guys. Makes you glad some people have gnaw ledge. bests, f Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:10:46 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Oh,that's just dumb rich SS + WPC reincarnates [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:15:09 (EDT) From: Joy Email: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk To: All Subject: Hot Idea for an Enterprising Entrepreneur Message:

I sent the following comment to Richard via e-mail and he urged me to post it on the new Forum since he thought everyone was a bit shell-shocked from all the recent upsets. I was only kidding, but it might not be a bad idea for someone who needed to make a little extra cash (I'm still only kidding, really). 'There should be a weekly publication on the internet, sort of like Soap Opera Digest, detailing the ups and downs, latest romances and fights on the Forum. Hey, that's not a bad idea, is it? Someone who's a regular lurker (like yourself) could post a weekly bulletin and charge for the service, so people who are too busy to spend much time on it could still keep up with the action! $10 a month and you get a week by week synopsis! Larkin's latest songs,* best of* posts, hot gossip, etc.' Well, any takers? I'd subscribe!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:20:05 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Joy Subject: Re: Hot Idea for an Enterprising Entrepreneur Message:

This is a good start. How about a newsletter. It will tell you where the 'Hot Picins' are located. It will summarize the week or month's events. It will give you the latest dish It will feature Best of Forum It will give http:// addresses and why you may want to see them Regarding M. It will give tips for helping M decide to retire It will give you M's artineray of events It will quote M's latest not-worth-traveling-around-the-world-for anymore diatribe Any suggestions?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:36:46 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: Joy Subject: Hello Joy Message:

I was wondering whether I'd get an e-mail to you before you took the plunge back into the Forum. Not much to say but hello, and in some ways you didn't miss anything except a few brilliant turns of phrase on a subject that is always being discussed, debated and deconstructed here! much love, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:02:54 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Francesca :) Subject: Here's an example of how it might work Message:

Joy, Following is an actual and unedited email (honestly) from a mutual friend of ours. After a chat about some of the revelations on FV, I sent them a link to the *Best Of* section JM put together on EPO. The person is like many 'post premies' - was into M&K but not enough now to go to a video. Don't know about what is known now. This was their reaction. Richard Well....................2 hours later, I MUST stop! Fascinating!!!!!! Disgusting!!!!!!!Amazing!!!!!! I knew it!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T stop reading, have to eat, have to pee, have to have caffine........CAN'T stop........

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:46:53 (EDT) From: Announcing Email: None To: All Subject: A new ex forum for people who don't.. Message:

..like too many guidelines. [ An Alternative Ex-premie Forum ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:02:55 (EDT) From: Nige Email: None To: Announcing Subject: Hey, relax, Way ...:) Message:

It was just response to CW's complaint about 'too many rules' in the thread below... (it will be off-line before bedtime) Hmm, maybe you are relaxed already, but just in case it gave the wrong impression, I have now softened the language, somewhat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:30:23 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Nige Subject: Re: Hey, relax, Way ...:) Message:

You mean I don't get to be banned for life?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:09:10 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Way Subject: Re: Hey, relax, Way ...:) Message:

Sorry, pal, rules is rules...!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:44:17 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: All Subject: I swear in the Holy Bible that I will Message:

ESTABLISH PEACE ON EARTH: I won't but I want millions. I sad it because it sounds good and I was broke, and I liked toys and couldn't get them. So what? I'm a materialistic greedy guru, so, I will made everybody who come to me, gradually, as 'small' as possible, I will keep them needy of me and I will get all the fame, power and money I want. I'm an Indian guru. I know few tricks, my father taught me how to keep all interested and afraid of rotten vegetables. First I offer something that 'they cannot find ANy place else', then I confused them enough that they hang around and but all my trinkets and crappy videos full of good sounding nonsense and I'll get all I want and need. I can hire prostitutes when I want sex: I'm an insecure person and have no clue how to seduce a woman. I'm so ugly that if I was a regular person women would run from me. But hey, now I'm rich and can find the best prostitutes around. Love? What is that? Sex, lies and rock and roll is what I'm about. I'm the cool guru, who doesn't give even one un-calculated step. I have atroop of liars who can make all look good even when my lies are obvious; they are MY worshipers. THE ONE WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS! I NEVER GREW UP AND I DON'T HAVE TO: My wishes are orders. I have anough stupid people around me to TAKE ME 'THERE', TO THE OTHER SIDE$$$$. I have no fears. People are like ants and every opportunity I have I make fun of them. They are NOTHING. Compassion? hahahaha... Stupid word created. I AM THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE OF DARKNESS. I will live forever. I am GOD, a dark, opressor GOD and I wake up every morning worshiping the IMAGE of the one whot allowed me to become so, so powerful and rich. I can hire the best troop of lawyers. I am set....I am .... SHUT THE FUCK UP MAHARAJI!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:14:51 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Fuckin BEST OF FORUM**** Message:

You bust me UPPPPP!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:07:53 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Fuckin BEST OF FORUM**** Message:

I supposse you mean you got a laugh. I'm glad. What is there to do? cry? Pleeeeeease premies, give us a brake... there are no rotten vegetables, JUST A ROTTEN TEACHER. It makes me sick to think that premies want to see us, the ones who want REAL freedom as hateful beings,m when in reality, the one who hates them the most is the one who jailed them, LOOOOOOOONG a go, the one who steals their chance for real freedom and happiness... and they settle for a fake happiness, full of frustrations and self-hate. Yes, self hate, because how otherwise can the premidon trip be justified if not as self-repression, self-hate? Whatever represses you stops you from being who you CAN be and if you are not allowed to be human, is the one lying to you 'loving you'? No fricking way. What happens is the fricking guru doesn't give them a break. He keeps having ENOUGH fricking stupid brainwashing blablabla empty program as I said, to keep everybody busy. If he stops for a while talking people MAY beging to think for thememselves and he knows that is bad for bussiness. How many people have received K? Not many. Hardly any new people and the old ones are leaving every minute. Does he cares about the damage he has done to people minds, souls? No. I'm sure his sick mind has many, many ways to justify his wrongdoing, after all, what other choice he has? Work in Mc Donalds? Would he be an artist painting 'those' flowers? A Pilot? hahahaha... he doesn't pilot the plane, he just sit there, the pompous ass. Oh yes, we are mad, but to talk about it is healthy FOR MY MIND! I'm reafirming he is fake and I am real. I am a human being, accepting ALL my parts. He is just for one: $$$$ baby! The fricking guru is all for the bussiness and any person who thinks the opposite, any person that came to believe he has ANY power over them, any person who thinks he is some God or Lord of any kind needs immediate psychological help. Is like being an addict: You know taht drugs make your life unmanagable but you continue craving and wanting the drug. Life with guru sucks, but he convinces you so good that there is nothing better that you are not even able to doubt... You have fell for the biggest lie of all, you have become trapped. And if you leave, specially after decades of brainwashing life can become a little difficult because as Selene said yesterday on the phone, we had no adult life free of his BS, so now we must re-learn how to live, but hey, I wouldn't ever come back to be a feet kisser, no way. Life is real today and the possibilities are endless. With guru, an end street is all you have. I'll write soon. I'm just taking a brake of my responsibilities.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:36:39 (EDT) From: SF (selene) Email: None To: Silvia Subject: premies will say Message:

Al that was 15 years ago. Which is somehow supposed to make it ok. Don't ask me why. they have an interesting way of rationalizing, sort of like the abused wife who says 'He doesn't hit me often. It was my fault for provoking him'. ughhhhh (Hi Silvia)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:34:01 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: SF (selene) Subject: Re: premies will say Message:

Hi Selene, Is dry and hot here as I remember it was when I visit Arizona. Aughhhh... Al that was 15 years ago. That what guru mariachi tells them, now is now... How easy he want to patch all his bs! Well, is not like that for us ex-premies. Words have power and what he said to be real real then and kept bragging about it for decades is true today and I find him to be a liar. If premies have no morals and no problem in being supporters of such a low being is up to them. Their stupid decission. He lied to us, period. End of the argument. If a person realizes that he lied how can one stay and support him at all? Screw him and his idiotic breath monopolizing. God he is not. Just a greedy, rich wanna be: He got some serious bucks but he can't buy class. He is a low life as he always was. Fricking liar! Adulterer. Prostitute user. Idolater of false images, false little god like his non-swan dead father, food 'hugger' (read too fat=eats too much LOL)power starving controlling, annal retentive, drunk. Me, a hater? Hey, I just have the guts to speak what I think. Not too many can, pussie cats, weakies, etc., etc.... I rather be a human being than a wanna be fake 'saint'. I have more chance of finding life truth than the one who affirms he already found it: They found a dead end street. Is a ego trip. Now they are wishing death to see what is like... what guru mariachi promised about it. pathetic. He is so fake that he changes his stories daily and premies respect him, and premies have the guts to tell us we are missing the point? No way. MAHARAJI SUCKS!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:02:22 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Who said premies were clones...? Message:

[ You should see the RAEL THING.. ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:32:06 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Who said premies were clones...? Message:

Nigel, in your travels, you may find the news section of sightings.com to contain some articles the may interest you. The site was linked to the forum one day and I now go there weekly to see what articles interest me. They do like the silly notion of ET visitors, but I ignore that stuff and go for whatever articles I like.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:05:30 (EDT) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Without the Master you cannot come home Message:

Rev Rawat said that last week in Mainz. This is extremely silly and manipulative and annoying at best and, at worst, dangerous and irresponsible. Perhaps I should have titled this message, ''Confessions of a breatharian,'' because I am going to fess up to something: I really enjoy breathing. It's because I enjoy breathing so much that I have to criticise Rev Rawat. I grew up in a noisy household. The kitchen door was always open and all the kids in the village gathered there. My parents were loud and had alarming fights with lots of shouting and pots and pans flying. And Grannie Flossie was always pounding away at the piano and singing ''A Bird in a Gilded Cage.'' When I was seven we went to visit Flossie's cousin Gladys who lived in the city. My father left to go drinking with his pals while Flossie and my mom drank tea with Gladys in her parlour. Gladys was a spinster and I was a boy so I was not allowed into her parlour but had to have my tea in the dining room by myself. I sat there at the dark shiny mahogany table and was fascinated by the highly polished parquet floor. It smelled and gleamed as if it had just been polished. A vase of pink carnations stood in the middle of the table. Their scent also caught my attention. I could hear the tinkle of teaspoons and hushed conversation of the three women wafting down the passage from the parlour. The afternoon seabreeze sprang up from the Indian Ocean and blew the white lace curtains inward. I had never known such cleanliness (mom was a slob) or sweetness in my life before. Then I noticed something else that I had usually only experienced when in the wilderness away from people. It was quiet; so silent that I could hear the tick-tock of the grandfather clock in the passage. Then I heard the sound of my breath. It seemed to come and go as the lace curtains blew in and out and each breath was perfumed with carnations and floor polish. To this day those smells bring on waves of nostalgia. Was it 1967 that ''Sgt. Pepper'' first came out? Whenever - I was about 19, lying on the floor of a penthouse overlooking the Indian ocean when I first heard it. The owner of the penthouse was a former circus trapeze artist who had recently opened the first gay club ever in the history of South Africa. I was his bartender and had been invited to a party in his penthouse high above Durban's beachfront Golden Mile. The livingroom was filled with an assortment of elegant queens and surfer beachbums. Pipes of Durban Poison (dagga or cannabis) circulated non-stop. It was the third time that I had smoked it and this time it worked. The Beatles wove their spell and I had my first psychedelic experience. My imagination flowed like ''Fantasia'' to the music. Effortlessly I ''saw'' the music and even ''smelled'' it. The beauty! Each breath was so miraculous that tears rolled down my cheeks. Later I would think of that night and realize that I understood what Keats meant when he said that beauty is truth and truth is beauty. Many psychedelic trips and four years later I gave up drugs and started to meditate. The first technique that I did was called ''tranquil breath.'' I heard about the kid guru going to Glastonbury and thought he was a cheap show-off and self-promoting conman. My friends all got his ''Knowledge'' and went to India. If you can't lick 'em, join 'em and I did. When I was told that the breath was the Holy Name of God I immediately was hooked. I understood what that meant. I may not use the same words to describe it anymore. That is after all a very Hindu way of looking at it. Too religious and constricting which is probably why Rev Rawat has stopped referring to it as such. But calling the breath the ''Holy Name'' really is only poetry - poetry written by a primitive pres-scientific pre-agnostic people. But no matter what, the breath is still something worth writing poetry about. That is at least one thing Rev Rawat has got right - except of course his poetry is so inane. So why do I still think he's a ''cheap show-off and self-promoting conman?'' Because he is such an inane poet? Partly - but mostly because he is such a bad yoga teacher and has promoted his own glories over those of sanity, common sense and respect for the mystery of life. He has enriched himself by degrading a simple message of reverence for the unexplained miracle of the breath with superstition and the ugly retro-feudalism of gurujism. And that's my main beef against Rawat. How dare he say at Mainz last week that ''you cannot came home except with the help of the Master?'' He will suffer untold eternal agonies for saying that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:18:04 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: PatC Subject: Good post PatC! (nt) Message:

aha

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:15:47 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Without the Master Message:

Hi Pat, So I guess that means, when we die and get to the gates of heaven, St Peter will look in his book and say, 'Sorry guys. You cancelled your monthly donation to Captain Rawat, took his picture from the wall and took responsibility for your own lives again. It's down to Hell for you, where you'll have to fuck Margaret Thatcher four times a day and watch home decoration TV in the intervals. Anth the freshly painted Tory. Anth the celebate rakshasa.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:21:43 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: PatC, way to go!.......... [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:18:27 (EDT) From: Gina (Home Girl) Email: None To: PatC Subject: Beautiful story, Pat, & point well made [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:22:00 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: PatC Subject: Pat,a perfect example of why EPO is so good... Message:

It is so fascinating to me to have a forum where Reverend Rawat's sermons can be actually looked at and dissected, rather than swallowed whole. It is so illuminating, especially when you see the many ideas, beliefs and concepts that the right reverend espouses,while at the same time he also says that he has no beliefs to promote. I am not talking about endlessly dissecting his sermons to try and nitpick them to death to find the discrepancies. This can be done with anyone, if one wants to prove them to be hypocritical. But it is so interesting to really look at some of this stuff. I think maybe we should gather a list of the reverends recent discourses in the last few years and weed out some of the many beliefs he is promoting, while claiming to not promote them. Wouldn't it be interesting to ask m or one his instructors about some of these, such as: 1-No one in the history of the world has ever saved themselves without the master. (Q-what does he mean by saved? Is he THE master? Is every person on planet Earth right now NOT saved, unless they are a premie? And when shri hans was alive, was every person on planet Earth also lost, unless they were a premie of his? And worst of all, how about those ex-premies? Where are they going? They were saved, but 95% of them decided to get Un-saved for some strange reason.) 2)Everyone leaves this world empty handed, but I can give you something that won't leave you empty handed (at death). (Q-Could the reverend explain SPECIFICALLY what he means? What is he saying that he is giving? Immortality through a DVD on an I-Mac computer?) 3)Krishna says: remember me at death, and you will come to me. (Q-Is the reverend telling his present day premies to remember Krishna at their time of death? If so, is he really recommending Hinduism now to the premies? Since that is highly unlikely, isn't he perhaps saying to the premies (in a secretive sort of way that only they will 'get') that he is the present day Krishna, and that premies should remember reverend rawat at their time of death? 4)Your immortality is inside of you. (Q-since he is teaching you how to 'go inside', isn't he promising immortality here? Once again, he can show you how to achieve or experience immortality. And once again, how is that done, specifically? Is it the DVD on the I-mac, the knowledge session video in the TV at the community hall, or the secret password protected web site where aspirants can go to get the 4 techniques? Or does it occurr when the new premie finally sees maharaji at a live program? Holy breath? (seems to be making a comeback in out of the way places like amaroo these days) Maybe we should start collecting some of these recent quotes and post them somewhere on the site. They certainly would pose interesting issues for aspirants to explore, premies to try and explain, instructors to dodge, and the right reverend rawat to weasle out of.... La-ex

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:57:48 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: PatC Subject: Pat - a suggestion Message:

Pat, You might consider writing your memoirs for publication. If you do, try to keep the Rawat stuff to one or two chapters. The dining room scene was lovely and thought-provoking. More of those kind of small but significant moments would be good. But I know that your life has had some major drama in it as well, and with a little Thelma thrown in, you could really have a book.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:56:32 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Without the Master you cannot come home Message:

Well PatC, I must say you totally suprise me. I checked in thinking it would be great to see one of your lectures on Maharajism and here you've done one better. You've described what I would call your own personal cosmology. Carnations and floor polish. I could practically smell that and hear the clock ticking. Very poetic, my good man. Thanks for sharing part of yourself. I believe it is so important to recall the person who was filled with wonder and awe when he/her first heard of the Sat Guru. It is precisely that sweetness and beauty and truth and beauty and love and truth that I need to recall in order to continue reclaiming my true self. Thanks for the encouragement. I think I'll run out and get some carnations and floor polish and reach nirvana - oops that's your cosmology. Let's see, mine is around here somewhere. Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:20:53 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: Without the Master you cannot come home Message:

You've described what I would call your own personal cosmology. Pat did nothing of the sort. Cosmologyis the study of the physical universe considered as a totality of phenomena in time and space. I believe it is so important to recall the person who was filled with wonder and awe when he/her first heard of the Sat Guru. You're confusing a natural youthful exuberance for life with guru worship. What you fancy as 'your cosmology' is nothing but guru worship, bhakti yoga. If that's what you like, fine, enjoy. But don't mistake it for a 'cosmology.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:46:37 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: gerry Subject: Oh my - splitting hairs Message:

I think you totally missed my point which was offered in good spirit. Change 'personal cosmology' to 'personal story'. Feel better now? When I said 'awe and wonder' I was referring to my state of mind before I heard of GMJ. In other words, I brought that awe and wonder and transferred it to worshiping GMJ - not the other way around. I also said It is precisely that sweetness and beauty and truth and beauty and love and truth that I need to recall in order to continue reclaiming my true self. That was what I was about before I heard of GMJ and K. And in my own experience, it is possible to revisit those states of being. Of course M, at some debatable point, coopted those qualities and claimed he was their source but it is who we were before that interests me. Yes we were young and naive but there was more to it than that. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:22:33 (EDT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Without the Master you cannot come home Message:

because he is such a bad yoga teacher and has promoted his own glories over those of sanity, common sense and respect for the mystery of life. He has enriched himself by degrading a simple message of reverence for the unexplained miracle of the breath with superstition and the ugly retro-feudalism of gurujism. And that's my main beef against Rawat. How dare he say at Mainz last week that ''you cannot came home except with the help of the Master?'' He will suffer untold eternal agonies for saying that. --- Thank you Pat, love the way you put it. I quoted the last part of your post. I couldn't agree more. Love, Mercedes

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:43:37 (EDT) From: John Keats Email: None To: PatC Subject: all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know Message:

From Ode on a Grecian Urn When old age shall this generation waste, Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say’st, Beauty is truth, truth beauty,”—that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know. Posted by JohnT - never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:12:38 (EDT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: All Subject: Please don't miss this Message:

Over on Life's Great, suchabanana has an amazing series of posts under the thread '4 holi pwk meditation mantras'. Really incredible, suchabanana! EV Monitors- WARNING! If you read the above-mentioned posts, you will probably end up leaving the cult!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 02:14:49 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: thanks.Now,next shift at LG,someone, please?! haha Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:22:32 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: All Subject: angels: take a wing-man to LG Message:

I think occasional ex-prem partying and sharing da maha truthful cult information even with da predictable lobotomized flamer premies at LG is important, in the process of ongoing premie and aspirant truth outreach and the divine rescue mission of da betrayed trusting souls... r.e. da cult: da lucky ones left before bowing and surrendering their lives before m's photo, and some got kn and just took off on their own, w/o any deeper cult involvement. also, the come-latelys missed the doodoo heavy heavyduty maha googoo cult shit. circa 90's was setting up all the empty cult chairs each week at videos, putting away the empty chairs... Note: angels going to LG: take a wing-man. they got some MIGs [misguided missile idiot gurupies] if premies [er, pc is pwk, folks, what's a premie - a premature baby, or what?] wanna come here, let 'em -- exes can surely more than hold their own with truth and grace and wit and style. and it's a blessed sight to see exes and affected premie families get together to party and share truth and wisdom over at Life's Great, too, in spite of some lobotomized flaming premies.hate.htm. hahahehehoho You know, the more exes and questioning premies and aspirants at LG and here, the merrier. Let's have some real consciousness raising. Who's afraid of da big bad wolf? I encourage all exes and concerned premie relative families to check in here regularly and to also visit Life's Great forum and weigh in there with your insightful observations, concerns, and experiences. Peace and lentils, Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 19:15:43 (EDT) From: Gina Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Roger that, Such, bogies @ all o'clock's! Message:

I'm not one of the angels, but I just came back from my first venture over to LG where I've just finished reading your entire thread. Wow. I gotta say I hear your point, encouraging participation at LG, loud and clear. Not sure this is for a trash-talkin forum rookie, though, at least not without a helmet and a flak jacket...tough crowd! Looked like about 24 hours? I hope you got some good sleep after! Much thanks to you and anyone else who steps across that line and just tells the truth and hangs on through the barrage. Respect and Love, Gina....... who is such a forum rookie that when I previewed this message and it wasn't divided into the paragraphs I thought I'd written, I never could figure it out, sorry...and yet, there you go...reason enough that you might not want the likes of me over on LG trying to post in a serious debate, eh?! Geez, here I mustered the courage to come back to the forum and can't get the hang of the new thang. Or maybe just can't hang!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:52:17 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: This is as it is Message:

I notice below that I've been asked to block someone. I should say that I'm not prepared to run a heavily moderated forum and if you want a heavily moderated forum, someone else must come forward who is acceptable to people and take over this forum. This isn't a negative post. What I'm saying is that I am too busy with my own life to worry about posts here from premies who people don't like. I realise some people will find that unacceptable and will want a 'proper' forum admin who will protect people from posters who you don't like or want here. It all depends on what one's philosophy is regarding the internet. Mine is that online forums are impossible to control and 'make safe'. I believe that the more one tries to stifle dissenting or distasteful opinions, the more one narrows oneself down to a little club of like-minded people. I prefer a broader and more risky approach. I prefer the opinions to come, as they are from the people who read the forum or webpage and I prefer no safety net because without a safety net, a new dimension is reached in understanding all of the varying and conflicting opinions. Also, without a safety net, more impassioned feelings are voiced. I'm not interested in arguing my way of thinking to you and I've made no secret of it before. This forum will continue as it is, which is pretty much uncensored until people themselves are prepared to either take over, lock stock and barrel with a more moderated forum or start their own moderated forum which can supercede this one as the main ex-premie forum. This is not a problem. At least I have given people a breathing space to stop and reflect on what it is they want from a place such as this. In short, this place stays as it is now, virtually uncensored with no blocks on premies or people who some people find distasteful and stay it will until someone or some people come up with something better and more acceptable to the whole. At such time, I will bow out gracefully without any bad feeling but pleased that I at least have added my bit to the saga of the forums and history of the online premies and ex-premies. David Simpkiss.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:44:59 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: David Subject: 'a bit'? You mean a royal lot! [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:57:08 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: David Subject: Re: This is as it is - and it is okay Message:

Actually when I agreed with Anth about banning the troll I was simply stating my outrage and that is all I really wanted to express. Like you I beleive the net is impossible to control. Perhaps I will express my outrage differently next time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:31:29 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: PatC Subject: Pat - as I see it banning a troll... Message:

Banning a troll is no worse than, say, asking an unwelcome guest to leave your houseparty (or restaurant ? ;)) Nothing to do with freedom of speech or human rights or whatever. They can set up a cool Troll Page or prasadam restaurant elsewhere and deny your human rights in return (mega - ouch!) Disruptive behaviour (like the internet itself) may be impossible to control but you can nevertheless limit its impact on your common-interest group - which, after all, is all we are. No big deal. An ex-loosers club. When I was FA on forum V a while back, I deleted volumes of unreadable gibberish spam posts before most readers even noticed they were there. Without a measure of control (preferably with the consent of site users) and clearly specified posting guidelines Forum 6 will swiftly become dysfunctional. For sure. Am I volunteering for the job? Gawd - I am not sure anyone would trust my integrity any more. But if I did it, I could not be anonymous - anonymity in high places only fuels paranoia, and we have seen more than enough of that lately. There is no shame in hosting a discussion site on the web or in saying Prem Rawat is not God (I am certain that 99.99999% of the human race might even agree with said sentiment..) Guidelines and a modicum of control are essential. Thanks for setting this up, Sir D, and ensuring continuity, and thanks for spelling out your own postion here, re. adminning. Fair play to you. The rest of us better sort this out pronto if we want a useable forum to leave to our grandchildren...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:09:47 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Nigel Subject: True Nigel Message:

Without a measure of control (preferably with the consent of site users) and clearly specified posting guidelines Forum 6 will swiftly become dysfunctional. For sure. I agree. With all the talk about freedom of expression and 'we were under M's authoritarian rule and don't want that here', the point is lost that without a few enforceable guidelines, F6 becomes another Anything Goes. AG serves a purpose but I would prefer F6 to be a bit more focused than that. Thanks Sir David of Cheddar and a huge thanks to all the past perfect, imperfect, pluperfect and future perfect FA's!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:10:48 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Nigel Subject: you were the best FA Nige Message:

and I don't like the idea of anonymous Fas after the last mess on F5. But that is me. And I have heard all the arguments as to why they should be anon, ho hum -Whatever!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:08:15 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: You say that to all the FAs Message:

Now selene, I'm really hurt. I thought I was your favorite FA of all time. Guess those emails didn't mean a thing. DO I HAVE TO POST THE EVIDENCE??? ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' (snicker)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:17:30 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: gerry Subject: yes you do Message:

Anyway I was in the loony bin during your stint or was it in between when you gave it to Roger? I know nothing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:28:18 (EDT) From: gErRy Email: None To: SF Subject: Gave it to Roger? Roger??? Message:

Anyway I was in the loony bin during your stint or was it in between when you gave it to Roger? I know nothing. --- I was going to post the EVIDENCE but I just took a nap and I had this dream were this ex-ex-premie came and killlled my family. Not me or Patty or Bocephus or Uncle Spunkle but everyone else. It was terrifying. And that's why I'm not going to present the EVIDENCE.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:36:39 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Actually, Anth was the best FA... Message:

Like me, he prefers to do sweet FA most of the time. Hi Anth - did I wake you up? Stuff going down here...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:31:58 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: gErRy Subject: it was really more like R and R Message:

Really. And that patch, it had to be surgically removed I could not help it . I'm nice and good and sweet now. Surely you are not afraid of me? Or is it Roger you fear? M did a number doncha think?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:51:14 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Selene Subject: Funny you should say that... Message:

..but I am biased (and there was usually a couple of us on duty during my tenure so it was probably the other one whose jackboots you really enjoyed ;) Not to mention I have just surrendered the reins to more worthy causes... Shit, do I have to? It will take at least two or three of us taking turns to make it work. I really don't have the time to do it full-time. Wanna be an admin assistant, Selene - anyone? Gotta think about this and allow others to volunteer or give me the thumbs down. New blood would probably be better. But kind of you say what you said. Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:05:58 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: Nigel Subject: calling 'our' bluff Message:

Sure I'll do it. Email me details. b) I like that (B)ob head, I named it

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:18:55 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.yhk To: SF Subject: Re: calling 'our' bluff Message:

I wasn't fishing for praise or calling your bluff, Selene. I am attracted to doing it again - provided proper guidelines are established etc. At the same time, I am very aware of the time commitment involved to do it properly. Do I have your email? How did you do that blob head thing?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:38:03 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: Nigel Subject: this email bounced nige Message:

solly are you sure you posted it ok? I tried uk w/o h still bounced.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:46:59 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: SF Subject: I am not surprised..dyslexic fingers.. Message:

..this time of night. Try correct address above b)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:21:24 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: Nigel Subject: did I say r)ob oh I mean Blob Message:

I mean Bob it's a right paren and a b b paren but if you put a left paren in front of it all it kinda looks like he has a bit of hair left on his po little ole ead, or else he just got hit by a baseball bat or somefin. I'll email

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:25:49 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: SF Subject: this editor made me do it Message:

wanted to make a new head. nevermind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:13:19 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: SF Subject: go for it Selene and Nige Message:

I could not stand the anonymity of FAing. But I do think oldtimers are best as they are more trusted. Yes, I agree with certain limitations but don't feel that I can ask Dave to do something that I would not - spend too much time worrying about the forum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:24:23 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: PatC Subject: Sorry, I can't do it... Message:

I have just been told my teaching workload is to increase by 30% this coming year. Spending less time here is no longer optional. I will have to spend a LOT less time here. But for anyone willing to get involved, may I suggest the following structure and guidelines: - A team of at least 3, preferably 4 admins sharing equal status. First four volunteers get the job (at Sir D’s discretion. Obviously premies do not qualify) - Set up a rota with each duty admin working one week in four per month. -Anonymity for FA’s optional. -Duty admin makes the big decisions about blocks and bans. -Non-duty admins are also on-duty whenever they happen to be online, but only for minor decisions regarding the editing or removal of guideline-breeching posts. -When an admin quits, invite volunteers and have a free vote among the other three admins (or how about a free vote open to people who have posted Journeys on the main EPO site – set up a committee of same and do it by email ..? – a bit more like democracy, perhaps?) - Anonymous Fa’s could call themselves FA1, FA2, FA3 and FA4 if they liked. It might help newbies understand why the FA’s style keeps changing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:27:42 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Nigel Subject: And my suggested guidelines Message:

The ID Rule: One name or alias per poster. Temporary joke aliases permissible provided the context makes it clear no deception is intended. The Gloved Fist Rule: Anonymity is fine and will be respected. However, anonymous posters flaming named individuals in a manner the FAs consider intimidating may be asked to negotiate their future participation with the admins. The Djuro Rule: Excessive disruptive posts from people clearly not intending to take part in on-topic discussions may be given the choke-collar, ie. something like three posts per day, or 1000 words – whichever is the greater. (and maximum one thread post per day?) The Absolute and Totally No Exceptions Rule: No threats. The Stop Wasting Our Time With Your Hobbies Rule: Off-topic posts should be marked ‘OT’ The Outing Rule: no revealing of personal details of forum participants without their consent. No revealing of personal addresses or home telephone numbers of any member of homo sapiens. (Primates are fair game) The Linking rule: linking to sites which breech the Outing Rule is probably impossible to control, given the permanent link to Anything Goes, but FA’s may remove posts relating to forum participants so exposed, at the victim’s request. The Warmonger Rule: No OT threads whose only purpose is to flame or personally attack another forum participant. (‘Attack’ here does not mean the same as ‘challenge’ – which is fine - but a challenge should not be OT.) The Kindly Take It Elsewhere Rule: Threads which the FAs deem to be satsang only (rather than genuine discussion about M or K) may be removed on humanitarian grounds. The For God’s Sake Show a Bit of Sensitivity Rule: asking known victims of Jagdeo explicit questions relating to their sexual abuse, or otherwise obsessing about same, will not be tolerated. The Fuck Off And Die Rule, Paragraph 17a, subclause (iii): anyone who pisses off the admins once too often is out on their ear without further discussion. ** all rules to be applied without bias towards premies or exes ** Best, Nige (who has probably broken a fair few of these in his time, but is currently working on ‘How to be a Fascist’)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:07:23 (EDT) From: Louella Parsnip Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Sounds good to me... Message:

... Not unsimilar to my own guidelines: You may be kind and feed the feral cats on the back porch or in the barn, but don't let them into the house where they will bring in fleas, scratch the furniture or spray on the carpet. If they've been ''fixed'' and de-fleaed, that's different. But they still need to me domesticated and housebroken to enjoy the comforts of living in a house, without spoiling it for other house dwellers. Let varmits and critters be varmits and critters, but don't let them into the hen-house. Keep a proper House Cat to keep mice and rats out of the kitchen and the pantry. Some might call that facism, but I call it common sense. I don't enjoy mouse turds in my food, or animal feces on the carpet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:05:12 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Ok, how about... (response to CW below) Message:

1. The All Posts Will Be Deleted Just To Be On The Safe Side Rule: All posts will be deleted just to be on the safe side. 2. The Bugger Off The Lot Of You Rule: Persons disregarding Rule (1) will be blocked for life (FA's included). ** The above rules will apply equally to premies and ex-premies **

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:10:11 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Forget it-Too many rules Message:

Who cares?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:19:41 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: PatC Subject: yeah no more new ex's Message:

doing FA stuff. enufs enuf. so let's keep it on topic - how bout that Worcester Mass cancellation huh? I'm a brat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:46:23 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: SF Subject: Very on topic Selene Message:

Selene, Right on about recent exes as FA's and I haven't really focused on the Worcester cancellation, but yes, very interesting. I like your kind of brattiness. It's playful and not mean! And you know, the premies that can't handle what we are saying are always telling us to lighten up. What are they going to do about you girl? You are already lightened up, and sassy. love, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 15:03:15 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: easy answer Message:

They accuse me of being stupid , a relic who can't code for shit, a dumbfuck who is aging rapidly along with acquiring a fat ass ... hmmm can't remember the rest, must be that IQ thing. As I told someone here who is new and has received more than her fair share of hate from Glasser, and the more virulent ones from LG, they go after the ones that catch attention, make a strong voice, and OR give out factual information on the cult. I'm glad you agree about the recent ex / FA thing. Thanks :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:13:20 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: SF Subject: b) Message:

Totally OT and NS (non sequitur): I'm just experimenting. It seems that in the new thread I just started doing a b) caused one of those head thingies to appear so I'm seeing if it happens again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:15:42 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: b) PS: Before forewarned! Message:

Typing a ''b'' followed by a right bracket causes a head to appear. I wrote ''mom was a slob'' in parentheses and got (mom was a slob)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:55:49 (EDT) From: Bjørn E. Email: None To: All Subject: The right to redressing myself. Message:

A lot of lies have been posted about me at FV. I could sue or report it to the police if I wanted. In responses to my post to Abi, I have written what I think is something Abi should consider. I have also told a story, which is true, how I have been working pretty hard to increase the rights of victims of criminal cases. It seems like I have succeeded and my hope is that my document in the hearing case in the parliament will even place the Human rights of victims at another level in my country. The document is yet not published but it will be so within mid august. If nobody believes me I can fax personal letters from the Prime minister, the Justice minister and the leaders of political parties in my country. I have considered suing some people, I even have their name and address, but I have chosen not to yet. It is true that I suffered severely from Posttraumatic Stress disorder; the major reasons for that was being a victim of serious violence, and seeing the offender walk without punishment. Another major thing is that I was sexually abused as a child. To me it was pretty traumatic not only to get accusations that I am a paedophile but also see that my full name is outed. I have also been accused of being really unintelligent and that might be the case. (Even posting at an ex-premie forum is en evidence, I will agree to that.) However I have been doing pretty well. By most measures I am pretty rich. I own 2 companies, (by now pretty worthless due to my illness) I also own 7 flats and one beautiful cottage in the mountain; Bjørnebu. (which even is on the Internet as I rent it out when I am not using it myself) I have even been awarded with a price for being a talented inventor. I also have a silver medal in the national championship of sailing as a junior. I have a lovely wife who I have been married to for 25 years. I have also 2 great daughters; one is studying social economics and the other is extremely successful in her career. I love my family, and it appears that they love me. So even how unintelligent I a must be, I have done pretty well. Katie, has questioned if the name outed is really my name. If you have any doubts of that, ask Michael Dettmer, Katie Darling or Joy, who I happened to know in Denver when I stayed there, or ask poster Jolly (Kaj Bjørkqiust) who I spent a holiday with in Finland when I visited the person who became my wife. And if you don’t believe my story, ask my therapist. I have been accused of being excusing Jagdeo behaviour. I must say that is a lie. However, being myself a victim of sexual abuse, this was an important issue for me. I wanted to find the truth about the subject. Therefore I posted. My first post was about that Mr Jagdeo should have been in jail. Many times Jagdeo has been accused of raping kids at ex-premie forums, however, to my knowledge, such evidence doesn’t exist. I would also stress that I am able to see that according to international Human Rights no one is guilty of a crime until judged. Statements saying someone is guilty are against international laws of Human Rights. I am also able to see that people with such tendencies, are ill, and should get medication. Every time I have been banned from ex-premie Forums, the reason have been that I have stated that as far as I know, nobody have been raped. At the ex-premie forums to say anything like that is definitely politically incorrect. One of the reasons I started posting was a post from a person called Marianne. It gave me the creeps that any person could state that it warmed her heart, to read about the Jagdeo case in one of Sir Daves links. It made me sick. At one time I was banned, I wrote to Jim and told him this story why I was concerned about the Jagdeo case. Without asking me, he posted my mail at FV. (I think that is illegal) When Marianne read about this, she freaked out, and being aware that I was banned, she called me a liar, and stated that everyone who knew her knew she would never write something like that. However. :This is what she indeed posted when Sir Dave gave the links to the Jagdeo story: Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:22:38 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir Dave, my hero! Message: Hi Sir Dave! Thanks for that post. It warmed my heart! Marianne I have been accused of being obsessed by the Jagdeo case. That is not true. I have been posting about almost everything, under my own name, and under other aliases. Every time under an alias, whatever I wrote about, some person; Gerry, Hal and Katie outed me due to my mistakes in the English language. When I was outed and met with false accusations, I changed my alias. I even told the FA why I changed aliases. If a hypocrite is someone accusing another person of something they themselves are doing, it seems to me that the nature of an ex-premie is to be a hypocrite and to lie. I most probably will not post here anymore. If anyone has more stones to throw, I would suggest they should ask themselves a question; “what have I done for the victims?”. At least I can swear on the Bible or whatever, that I have tried to do something, at least for the victims in my country. And if any of the victims should really for once do anything to really chase Jagdeo, I am willing to offer a contribution of 100 bucks. Last I would say, I have been ill and I was diagnosed to suffer from Posttraumatic stress disorder. I wrote a piece about a very efficient treatment, called Neuro feedback. This is a method that actually is a training which goal is to make the two parts of the brain to function like they are supposed to. The strange thing, the cure has remarkable similarities to Knowledge. In my training with this, I got a bit better, but strangely enough, what cured me, was to go to Nottingham. To meet once more with M, changed my life again. Some of the tests / training shows the level of your state of being from 1 – 10. - a 10 is really bad, 1 is excellent. Before I went to Nottingham, my average level was about a 6. After Nottingham I reached 1. I could post some more posts, as I think there are something’s that should be addressed. I am capable of writing some pretty nasty stuff, but it is not my intention to hurt anyone. Whatever you do, it is your choice. I find it ridiculous to discuss K & M in the first place. Bjørn E.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 22:26:25 (EDT) From: Janet Schwartz Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net To: Bjørn E. Subject: Re: The right to redressing myself. Message:

Bjørn: This is the first time I have ever gotten an opportunity to hear you out in your own words, calm , composed, reasonable and honest. My esteem for you as a person has increased greatly after having had this chance. I had hoped to begin this new forum in a better form and tone than the last one. was apalled at the bullying and lowlife consciousness that pervaded that arena. I don't intend to sink to that level again, whether by peer pressure or insecurity or tempatation. It would appear that common consideration is not as common as the civil person would hope for. By no means let that reality move you from your personal standards of truthfulness and clarity and honesty. I understand you far better, having now read your presentation above. Unlike your detractors, I do not see anything in what you state as offensive or perverse. All that you have sppoken is verifiable elsewhere as valid human knowledge, and is not representative of what you have been accused of displaying on any of these forum posting boards. Your feelings for that child were utterly normal and are in the literature the world over. Children can be extremely seductive, intentionally or not, and are whole and sexual beings from birth, regardless of what our hypocritical society would like to believe and pretend. I do not condone the rape or sexualizing of a child by any means. But I am not blind to the real presence of children's awareness of their sexuality from a very young age. I have watched 2 year olds--female children-- climb into the laps of grown men and knowingly play to them in charm and guile and sweetness, enjoying their effect on the man and using it to cajole him into granting them some favor they had discovered they could readily achieve by doing so. I have conversed with the men afterwards and frankly discussed what they felt and experienced and realized, and they were candid about how much it shocked them that a little girl that young knew what she had about her and had figured out how to use it to get her way already. This does not exonerate pedophiles or acts of sexuality on any child. Jon Benet Ramsey is dead, for her precociousness in knowing (being coached in?) how to manipulate her innate sexuality, and Drew Barrymore was a cocktail party alcoholic by the age of seven, from being trained and coached and encouraged to indulge her talents from birth, being born inside of one of the venerated acting, dramatic families of hollywood, and being surrounded by her parents friends, agents, producers and other star level, attention getting types, and the parties, the familiars, the posing, the entire environment. neither she nor JonBenet were allowed to hve an innocent, normal childhood. But it does go to indicate that children are sexual beings, and indeed, all humans are, and you or any boy at 13, in the throes of puberty and adolescing, a boy could very well feel such things as you so candidly relate that you yourself did. It is not indicative of sickness. It is understandable and not worthy of the uproar others have met it with here. Your experience at Nottingham is also completely logical. In regards to your PTSD and the experiences which induced it in your life, It makes sense that seeing Maharaji would be an experience that could take your stress levels down to a 1. a human being can experience a reduction of stress to zero at such an event. That doesn't mean they necessarily have to then worship or serve the speaker, or attribute superhuman powers to them, or create a castle of beliefs surrounding themselves and the other person for the rest of their lives, either. So I don't see your going to the program in the same light as others here ridicule it as. I very much welcome this chance to see you as you truly are, and I thank you for speaking in your own behalf this way. I make patient allowances for language difficulties when there is a possibility the speaker is not absolutely fluent with english, and may need clarification and help to arrive at exactly what they mean to convey. If they sem to say outrageous things, it bears exploring to discover if they actually meant what their words came out seeming to declare. On this, I give you the benefit of the doubt. Your points seem calm and clear to me, and I thank you for taking the time to state yourself yet again, this time, perhaps,the best. I now feel like I have met you as you wanted to be understood.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:41:44 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: human rights and medication Message:

Dear B, what was that about people violating International Human Rights by saying that someone is guilty of a crime? Also, what was that about people needing medication if they speak out about a crime which has happened to them??? Jagdeo is guilty. Sue me, but save the medication. Bye - no more dialogue with you on this. Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:15:40 (EDT) From: Bjørn E. Email: None To: Abi Subject: If 'Absence of empathy is evil' - Message:

is a true statement, like it is stated in the Nürnberg process against nazis, I know some evil people. In my book, the feeling of empathy, feeling compassion and understanding for other human beings, wheather they are victims or ill, is empathy. If you want to misunderstand me, Abi, I can't help. If you notice in normal publications, they never write 'so and so is guilty'. Someone might say, 'I think so and so is guilty'. Statements like 'He is guilty' is a violation of international laws of Human Rights. In my post, I stated: 'I am also able to see that people with such tendencies, are ill, and should get medication' I don't refer to people who state that so and so is guilty, I refer to people who have a sexual desire towards children' I hope there will be no more dialogue on this. Bjørn E.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:37:27 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: forgive Message:

Let's just forgive each other for misunderstandings and move on.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:09:26 (EDT) From: Bjørn E Email: None To: Abi Subject: Thanks Abi Message:

I forgive gladly, but I don't think there is anything you have done to me worth mentioning. A lot of what has happened has been misunderstandings. The only problem I have towards myself, is to forgive myself for wasting so much time at the EPO. I will move on, and I wish you the best. Bjørn E.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:28:27 (EDT) From: mama Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: Re: The right to redressing myself. Message:

Men you have problems. I feel like mine are very little compared to yours. Thanks for posting. BTW: Doesn't your guru help you? Why do you have to come here? Sue yourself: You are as as always your worst enemy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:19:57 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: Go see your therapist, Bjorn Message:

Once again you have made a post that is totally at odds with reality. You have misrepresented me and have posted a false impression of one of my previous posts. Bjorn, you need psychiatric help. Get it. Take care of yourself instead of focusing on Abi and Jagdeo. You need to tend to your own mental impairments. You are obsessed with Abi and Jagdeo. Start being obsessed with your own well being for a change. I have the professional capability to do what is necessary to defend my reputation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:37 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: Re: The right to redressing myself. Message:

Bjorn, If you do post again, a good rule of thumb is to not post it immediately but go do something and come back and look to see if all the sentences are really worth it. Take out all sentences that would bother others and serve no purpose. An easy one would be to NOT say to a person who says she WAS abused, and your maharaji met with her dad and is investigating Jagdeo, or at least says his staff will, Dont say to her 'I see no evidence that Jagdeo abused someone.' Another issue would be that you have indeed told this story on numerous occasions, and I do sympathize with your dreadful experience, try to not read Abi's posts, and try to not use them to upset her, How would you like it if I was to say 'I see no evidence that someone attacked you'? You would be insulted for starters right? And you ARE a guy, and a woman's sensibilities ARE different. Dont fergit, you would treat ABI more carefully and say different things if she was YOUR daughter. I know you would, I would also. Go easier type with more kindness, the master does not need defense here or he would have a staff person doing it already. Trust that he can take care of himself and you have not gotten agya to go to war on his behalf, and Jim is not here to goad you, so, try to not repeat old mistakes! We all learn more and more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:30:53 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: bill Subject: Well put :} [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 03:03:21 (EDT) From: Bjørn E. Email: None To: bill Subject: To Bill etc. Message:

Bill, etc. Men have feelings too. And sometimes they get hurt. One of the symtpoms of my illness, is to be extremely vulnerable. A correction: bill, you claimed I should have said ' 'I see no evidence that Jagdeo abused someone.' On the contrary I always said I believe Jagdeo sexually abused the victims. What I tried to to point out. is that there in there is a major difference between raping / having sexual intercourse and fondling with a kid in the eyes of the law and I guess if you asked victims who have experienced such a thing, they would think you were crazy if you said there is no difference. I am also sure that if anyone even touched one of my kids, I wouldn't rest until justice was done. IMO, the actions and strategy in this case, strongly points to the evidence that J. was not the target. Another evidence of that, is that, true or false, someone at the EPO once told about another mahatma who was molesting young boys, but he was sent back to India. That is not a case to be discussed at EPO. I would also say, as I have stated a few times before, IMO even to read about sexual abuse of children, stirs up bad memories and upsets anyone who has been a victim of sexual abuse. Don't worry, unless I find a really good reason, and if possible I will avoid any contact with ex-premies. In retrospect, I consider my posting an reading at the EPO sites as probably the biggest mistake in my life. The advice to check what you write before you post it, is something I think also others absolutely should take to heart.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:06:35 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: etc. Message:

Hi Bjorn, I think that the reason no one is pursueing the other mahatma is perhaps because we havent heard of his involvement in the mission of the rawat family of late, also, having someone who is definately going through it with us here on the forum and processing publically with us the whole experience links us to roar on her behalf and insist on her getting heard and not dismissed as DID happen unfortunately. It didnt help the cause that the EV faq's were so wrong in explaining the past, it did cause a lot of anger and I must say I was insulted by it myself. You know, it is said, that adversity reveals character. Well, the adversity that the ex premies provided did not reveal any applaudable character traits in EV of prem rawat that I can name. And I did hold him in the highest regard as you might guess from my previous role as gopi! Well, the whole buddhist idea that there is no self aware god, just a oneness with qualities and humans playing roles as one with it- is an idea that just about always produces the same result. Madness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:20:32 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: Nollidge cures Bjorn !!! Message:

Bjorn I think you need to meditate and watch some more videos, you're slipping to about an eight on the scale. Seriously, we know you're not a pedophile, you have a social conscience, you're a good businessman and family man and a devoted follower of Rawat and Jagdeo. Isn't that enough for you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:45:29 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: gerry Subject: And a touch of nostalgia before you go... Message:

But, Bjorn, what if the five-year old asked you out for a drink sometime? Yes Bjorn, It's true, we've all fallen in love with five year-olds from time to time. Why just a few years ago I had this little airport encounter with a girl, oh, she couldn't have been more than six, maybe seven. God what a fox! A real hottie, as they say. We were layed over in Denver in the middle of a storm. I was coming back from an ex-premie cult meeting and this little sweetie was just kind of hanging out doing the most exquisitely lovely things, playing with her older brother, running around. Boy, you don't see adults with that kind of energy, do you? -- Sorry, I can't go on. This is too sick and my apologies to anyone and everyone. I just wanted to remind you, Bjorn, that you are indeed a sick puppy. Yeah, you're right. There's a lot you don't know and foremost among those things must be why you'd a) 'fall in love' with a five year-old and b) come ehe and tell us about it. Those things are best said as 'Expressions' on ELK, don't you think? It's not quite so warm and fuzzy here. That's your friend Jim speaking before he told you to never email him, talk with on the forum or have any contact with him whatsoever or suffer the legal consequences. Remember? Ah the good old days...sniff, sniff. 'Memeber this? Ah memories.. I wrote in one post, that when I was a 14 year old kid, I fell in love with a kid of 5 years. I even wrote, I for a moment had sexual feelings.(for about 10 minutes). I remember I thought this girl was so funny so charming, so incredibel beautiful, that I thought I one day would marry her. My crush on her lasted about 3 days. And as I stated I never did any thing to her. Now Bjorn, that was a pretty stupid thing to write in a discussion about jagdeo's crimes against children, wouldn't you say?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:41:43 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: And a touch of nostalgia before you go... Message:

That is sick!! He does need help! He sounds like he always had a hung up with kids... Are the neighbors kids safe? Are his own kids safe? Is he for real coming here threatening with suing people? My fricking god. Mariachi does sickens people's minds...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:06:08 (EDT) From: Bjørn E. Email: None To: gerry Subject: You are a liar, and you know it Gerry Message:

It is true that I posted a post, where I stated that when I was a kid, (13, unsecure, counfused or whatever) I had a crush for a young kidfor a couple of days. I imagined I would marry her when she grew up. What I also wrote in the same post, is that I am grateful that such feelings never ever occured later in my live. It is also true that when I was about 18 and still a virgin, (confused, insecure or whatever) a gay person made a pass on me. It made me somehow flattered, but I did not share his feelings. But all this is none of your business, Gerry, and I think honestly you are sick.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:15:55 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn E. Subject: Tell me where the lie is, bim Message:

Bjorn, I was just poking around in the archives and I found those posts. I also read a good dozen or so posts where Jim reams you unmercifully, and IMO you deserved it. What I don't understand about you is that you keep letting out these little smelly farts and then tell us all not to sniff the air. Who cares if someone made a pass at you when you were eighteen. Why bring it up? I know it's none of my business, but why did someone kick the shit out of you? Noone, not even you deserves that kind of treatment. What brought it on? About my post quoting you: would you prefer if I remove it? Better decide fast while I can still edit the post.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:20:59 (EDT) From: Bjørn A Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Tell me where the lie is, bim Message:

I know what is a lie and what is the truth. I have redressed your lies over and over again and still you repeat them. I have it in my files. I dont care if you delete what you wrote. Your lies and posts tell more about you that they say about me. BTW I know something you would not like me to know. But I won't tell you what that is. Not now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:40:19 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn A Subject: Fire away Bim Doubtfire Message:

woo woo. I'm scared now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:12:19 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: All Subject: 'we had to surrender to his program' Message:

After their faith in the guru is crushed, fearful ex-disciples face the prospect of life outside the church Wednesday, July 18, 2001 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- By Richard Read of The Oregonian staff Debi Moore recalls cringing as Swami Chetanananda joked and laughed at dinner in a villa where he stayed in Nepal in 1999. Moore says she shifted uncomfortably as she sat with other disciples on floor pillows. She remembers watching closely as Chetanananda, a Kentucky-born guru originally named J. Michael Shoemaker, held forth on a couch far from the Northeast Portland manor where he lives with about 75 followers. Moore, then a 46-year-old data analyst, says she had traveled with her boyfriend to Katmandu to decide whether to stay with the spiritual leader she had revered for 26 years. She says she was appalled by tales of violence during sexual encounters she had repeatedly heard were taking place between Chetanananda and women in his flock. Moore says the whispered reports of violence shattered the belief system she had so carefully constructed during a quarter-century of meditation and worship. She recalls agonizing at the prospect of leaving the practice, believing that quitting would halt her spiritual development. Chetanananda repeatedly declined requests for an interview with The Oregonian concerning disciples' allegations of sexual abuse and other issues. Last Thursday, he submitted a typed statement in response to a summary of the accusations. In the statement, the swami defended his sexual relationships with his students as appropriate. He did not specifically respond to an allegation that he had had violent sex with women who suffered injuries, including a disciple who appeared to Moore and her boyfriend to be hurt in 1998. 'I am not a sadist and I am not violent,' he wrote. Moore says that in February 1999 she found the guru ensconced in a Spanish-style, Katmandu home. She thought the house, with its marble floors, wide porches, manicured lawn and guarded front gate, stuck out from the poverty and simplicity of the ancient city. She remembers recoiling at what she viewed as excesses: A caretaker, a driver, two cooks and women doing laundry scurried around, and a barber stopped in. On this night of the full moon, Moore recalls, two dozen disciples sat around a candlelit table on rich Oriental rugs. She says a young Tibetan woman interpreted between the swami and Wangdu, a Tibetan lama, as three little girls watched with the reverence of grandchildren. Moore says Chetanananda made a crass joke, ribbing Wangdu about getting laid. Laid. He used that word, Moore remembers thinking. She says she watched the translator squirm beneath a prim buttoned-up white blouse, dutifully interpreting while Wangdu glanced sideways. Moore says that as the swami forged on, lacing his jokes with vulgar terms, she felt he enjoyed the young woman's embarrassment. Finally she cut in. 'Swami,' Moore recalls saying. 'The children.' Moore says she returned to Portland after accompanying the swami and his entourage on a photo safari in a Nepali tiger reserve. She slipped her goodbye note under the swami's door in the ashram April 9, 1999. 'I love you,' she wrote. 'Every day I'm grateful for what I've received from you and the community.' 'I promise you, Shree (sic), the people who stand against me will be crushed, and their children and their grandchildren.' -- Chetanananda, autumn 1998, writing to Sree Chakravarti, a healer from India. In the letter, he accused her of trying to disturb his relationships with his students and supporting efforts to destroy him Former disciples say that 10 longtime devotees, including Moore, left the ashram in spring 1999 as tales of sex and violence circulated. Disciple Dana Swift recalls sitting in group meditation and seeing herself get up and leave. She says the vision came again, during another session, and again. On April 29, 1999, Swift quit the program, 11 years after signing up. The previous month, Chetanananda and Nityananda Institute had entered a confidential legal settlement with Portland-area lawyer Melinda Mandell, a former follower who had filed suit accusing them of breach of contract, racketeering and other wrongdoing. The Oregonian obtained records of the case later, before Multnomah County Circuit Judge David Gernant sealed them at Mandell's request. Mandell's attorney argued that allegations contained in the case file could damage reputations of the people involved. He added that Mandell thought that alleged thefts of personal property she had reported to police during the proceedings would be less likely to continue if the file were sealed. Mandell, a Portland lawyer, declined to comment, and she objected to The Oregonian identifying her and reporting on the case. Moore, Swift and other disciples who left Chetanananda that spring say that quitting the spiritual practice had once been almost impossible to contemplate. In one stroke, they say, a disciple would have to give up friends, community, religion, home -- and in some cases, church employment -- for an uncertain future. Ex-members say people tended to leave after a cathartic event shattered their faith in the guru. Boston cook Marty Keady, an ashram chef and disciple for four years, says he felt disgust in 1996 when he realized he enjoyed seeing the guru castigate another follower. Jim Hassan, a Massachusetts man who joined the ashram in 1989, says he lost faith after hearing that the swami was sleeping with a friend. ' 'If you leave, you'll be dead within a year,' ' Hassan says the guru threatened him in 1994. But former disciples say that it wasn't until May 1999 that Chetanananda drew an explicit line between the ashram and the outside world. Moore recalls that her boyfriend, who had stayed with the swami, told her that the guru had forbidden his followers to talk with anyone who had left. Chetanananda wrote in his statement last week that he had never threatened anybody who wanted to leave his community. He said he did not prohibit students outright from contact with former members. Today, in fact, not all members shun former disciples. Moore says her boyfriend told her the swami's directive that May gave him an impossible choice: Her or the guru. Moore says she felt scared. 'If he gives you the Kool-Aid,' Moore remembers asking her boyfriend, 'will you take it?' * * * * * Moore recalls that in August 1999, fear gripped her as she clutched her steering wheel. She says she forced herself to turn into the parking lot of the ashram at 1021 N.E. 33rd Ave., for the first time since quitting. Moore says she walked quickly toward the door on an errand stemming from her position as treasurer of the Kerns Neighborhood Association. She held an envelope containing cash for the annual neighborhood picnic, which disciples had helped build into a popular event drawing about 500 people. She recalls glancing at the institute's steel fence, afraid she might be charged by the Rottweilers, the dogs kept on the premises as pets. The big, brick manor loomed above her. No one accosted Moore that day or threatened her. But she says her fear was palpable. Moore remembers hearing similar expressions of fear when she attended the meeting of an informal support group made up of former members. The ex-disciples say they feared the swami because they knew his temper and his violent talk. They say they feared him because, even when they knew it was irrational, they had been told so long that he could read their minds. Most of all, they say they feared him because they felt -- by staring into their eyes during meditation for years, and in other ways -- he had penetrated the core of their beings. Chetanananda disputed such impressions in his statement last week. 'No harm has ever happened to any person who has left our community as the result of any action by me or anyone associated with me,' he wrote. But one woman says she continued to experience nightmares every couple of weeks 13 years after leaving the ashram. Her then-husband had bad dreams just as often -- every night, when he was under stress -- seeing the guru coming after him, sucking him back inside. Former members got unlisted phone numbers. They told friends not to reveal their addresses. They asked police to watch their homes. They say they feared not just the swami but his most fervent followers, people they believed might do anything -- as they felt they themselves once would have -- to prove loyalty to a man who represented a higher law. Former disciple Aurelia Navarro, who recalls enraging the swami by researching his sexual liaisons before quitting the ashram, says he told her, 'If this were India, I would be found floating face-down in the Ganges' River. * * * * * * 'Generating a vision . . . That's having a very, very deep and profound commitment to something bigger than you. For me, it was my teacher . . .' -- Chetanananda, during a talk in Santa Monica, Calif., June 14, 2000 Inside the ashram, the routine continued. Ashram resident Michelle Lawson, a former San Francisco lawyer who became a disciple in 1996, said last July she was incredulous at the hostility and fear. Lawson and Cynthia Brown, a 27-year disciple and chairwoman of Portland State University computer science department, said they believed the swami had attained enlightenment. 'There's no coercion in our group,' said Brown, who acknowledged the institute was not a democracy. 'If we had 15 enlightened people, then we could all decide, but we've only got one.' Some former members, who cited negative aspects of their experience in the ashram, also describe benefits. Melanie Rubin, a disciple from 1985 to 1998, still remembers meditation classes with the swami as some of the most powerful, heart-opening and beautiful experiences of her life. Rubin, a documentary video producer, says the swami's sexual conduct and autocratic style created an unhealthy environment for her. But she says she appreciated the structure that let her pursue her spiritual development, and the chance to participate in a community of warm, intelligent people. Ashram teacher Ruth Knight, a 23-year devotee, smiled blissfully last July as she introduced a reporter for The Oregonian to the meditation practice. Knight reclined on an easy chair in an ashram living room beneath a painting of Rudi, the swami's late guru, pictured sitting naked on a leopard skin. 'To really have a guru is an amazing and rare event,' Knight said. 'A student has to have a master in order to progress. 'A teacher needs to be from a lineage. A lineage can sort of be thought of as an energy field.' Energy comes down from guru to guru. Knight led the reporter through the meditation routine. Breathe in through your nose. Feel the breath enter between your eyebrows. Feel it come down to the throat chakra, or energy center, past the heart chakra and into the abdomen. 'In spiritual work, you're asking to grow and change. But the ego tries to maintain the status quo,' Knight said. 'People are very clever at finding ways to justify no longer growing . . . and quit their practice.' Sharon Ward, the institute's executive director and general counsel, dismissed former members' fears as outlandish. Ward said during an interview last September that the group was not a cult but a spiritual community, and she described the swami as an open and compassionate man. 'If you want to really understand who we are, come and meet me, meet us. You may or may not want to practice yoga and meditation here. But in either case, know, from within yourself, who we are.' -- Chetanananda, Sept. 18, 2000, in a public statement sent to The Oregonian after refusing numerous requests for an interview On Dec. 21, 2000, an e-mail from an outsider alerted Ward to a new Web site, launching a battle that continues. Former members had created the site -- www.leaving-nityananda-institute.org -- that featured an anonymous statement about Chetanananda by 11 people. 'He told us the only thing we had to surrender was our tensions,' the open letter said, 'when in fact we were expected to surrender everything to his program: our families, our girlfriends if we were men, our bodies if we were women . . . our money, our former religious beliefs and morals, and our sense of belonging in the society at large.' Soon afterward, institute members registered Internet domain names, such as www.leaving-nityananda-institute.com, resembling that of the former members' site, to steer Web surfers their way. The sites accused the former members of using hate-group tactics to incite prejudice and intolerance. Six members posted a signed statement describing the institute's philosophy. 'Neither students nor teachers are required to practice celibacy,' they wrote. 'Everyone is free to make his or her own choices regarding personal relationships.' This week, former members updated their Web site with results of a recent survey of several ex-disciples, many of whom reported behavior described as abusive. In his typed statement, the swami said accusations were being made by 'a small but vocal circle of former members who regularly meet to distribute malicious gossip via the Internet. . . . The allegations that are not outright lies are distortions so gross as to be impossible to respond to.' 'Interpersonal experience . . . while full of caring, may also be full of chaos and clutter. Many religious rules, such as celibacy, are established to save us from that clutter.' -- Chetanananda, Institute newsletter, January 2001, explaining that rules don't apply to his religion of love Dana Swift, who spent 11 years following Chetanananda, has moved to another state and found a new job. She shuns spiritual teachers. But she continues meditating occasionally, and does Tibetan and Hindi chanting. Hone Ames, who spent 10 years as a disciple, has moved away from Portland, renewed friendships and family ties and resumed her career as an author. Ames says that a medical doctor and a therapist diagnosed her as suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. But she says she now enjoys a full life free of manipulation and fear. One of 11 women who told The Oregonian that Chetanananda had sex with them is now a medical practitioner. 'I went through a period of time when I wanted to cut him up in little pieces,' she says. 'I don't think if I was somebody with a good childhood, that had a lot of support, I would have gotten into it.' Current Nityananda Institute members reject the authoritarian label. 'Nobody worships him; he's just a very, very fine and extremely caring person,' said Pat Tarzian, a 13-year member. 'I'm not in a cult, wearing orange,' said Carolyn Morgan, a member for more than 20 years. Ruth Knight, who teaches in The Movement Center, the institute's yoga school, which has provided a source of new disciples, said recently that the program had a record 300 students. Knight dismisses public criticism as the product of a vendetta by a handful of disgruntled former followers. 'I wish them well,' Knight says. 'I think they've created a hell for themselves that they can't get out of.' * * * * * * Debi Moore heaved a chunk of seasoned maple out her barn door last winter and pulled a maul off a wall rack. Deftly, she tipped the log on end with her right foot, stepped back and swung the maul in an arc over her head. Almost two years after quitting the ashram, Moore was continuing to rebuild her life, settling into a rural routine far from Portland. She and her boyfriend bought acreage and a run-down house in a mountain range where no one would think to find them. They stayed together after each emerged separately from Chetanananda's influence. 'I didn't know he'd get out,' Moore says of her boyfriend. 'You can't talk someone out. It occurred in him.' She grieved over lost friends inside. She met with a therapist. She read about cult psychology. Gradually, she says, she overcame paralyzing fear of the guru. She began a new job, started exercising and took a pottery class. She and her boyfriend installed windows and insulation. They framed walls, planted 200 trees and watched deer come down from the mountains. Moore still felt a hunger for something deeper, a thirst for spiritual meaning. But she knew that when she returned to that quest, it would have to ring true in her mind, her body, her emotions and her relationships with others. The maul hung in the air. Moore flexed her arms. Moore knew that some other ex-members still felt victimized. But after 26 years with the swami and nearly two years free of him, she considered herself a survivor. at: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/lc_43guru18.frame The steel wedge neatly cleaved the firewood with a satisfying clunk. Moore tossed the pieces on a sturdy cart and hauled it toward the house. You can reach Richard Read at 503-294-5135 or richread@aol.com.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:21:47 (EDT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Does THIS sound familiar? Message:

The following material is taken from the leaving-nityananda-institute .org website. Sounds pretty familiar to me!******************************************************************** The Cult Test: If You Are In Doubt Identifying Traits of Abusive Groups We offer a shorthand list followed by a longer list of cultic traits compiled from: Recovery From Cults, by Michael D. Langone, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich, 'Crazy' Therapies, by Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Combating Cult Mind Control, by Steven Hassan Michael Langone, in his article 'Cults, Violence, and the Millennium,' suggests the following three characteristics as essential in the definition of a cultic group: 1. centralized control by a charismatic leader 2. an us-versus-them mentality that isolates 3. a lack of tolerance for dissent Compiled list: 1.Control-oriented leadership – leader claims to be an all-knowing, liberated being. 2.Hierarchical structure with an elite inner circle – including leader’s assistants. 3.Group leader not accountable to any authorities, as are, for example: military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations. 4.Polarized us-versus-them, black-or-white mentality causing conflict with wider society. 5.Manipulation of members by alternating guilt/anxiety/fear/ostracism and attention. 6.Group perception of being spiritually unique/elite and separate from normal culture. 7.Denunciation of other spiritual/religious leaders and groups. 8.Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about group and leader. 9.Spiritual practices emphasize experience rather than rationality. 10.Sexual abuse - leader uses power to sexually exploit members. 11.Economic exploitation of members by leader and assistants. 12.Confidentiality of members private affairs (legal, medical) violated by leader and assistants. 13.Members’ subservience to group causes them to cut or weaken ties with family, friends, and personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining group. 14.Reliance on outside professional help, doctors, therapists, etc., discouraged. 15.Leader poses as self-sacrificing divine agent who only promotes members’ well-being. 16.Service is inner directed toward the group not the surrounding community. 17.Revamping of members’ cultural/moral values to suit leader’s lifestyle and program. 18.Conformity to group’s/leader’s values, life style, mode of dress, diet, esthetics, and so on. 19.Promotion of dependence on group/leader – often disguised. 20.Important personal decisions must be approved by leader – members seek his blessing. 21.Phobia induction vis-à-vis leaving the group/leader. 22.Painful exit process – ex-members ridiculed, threatened, and dumped. Note: If you check any of these items as characteristics of the group you are concerned about, and particularly if you check many of them, you should reexamine the group and your relationship to it. Such reexamination usually runs against the dictates of the group leaders and will be difficult for the member to do. Begin by speaking to outside health and legal professionals and ex-members. If your group is indeed healthy and non-abusive, there is nothing to fear from taking these cautionary steps.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:51 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Re: 'we had to surrender to his program' Message:

Wow didn't this line get you: The sites accused the former members of using hate-group tactics to incite prejudice and intolerance. fuckin eeerrrrie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:15:00 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Deborah Subject: like day job view, er deja vu [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:27:35 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind' Message:

Over on Life's Great, somebody quoted Maharaji from Rome in 1977, talking about the mind. Once again, I'm reminded of the damaging and ridiculous stuff he indoctrinated into his premies. 'When I say mind, I mean mind. Not your brain that has things going on in it, blood going through it, and which thinks and sees for you. I'm talking about something that sorta hovers, like a bee, all around that area. It follows you wherever you go, bugs you whenever it can, troubles you whenever it can, even in your quietest moments. That little thing that does it is what I'm talking about. That's what I'm refering to as 'mind.' Hans Jyanti 9/11/77 Rome, Italy This whole ideological crap that Maharaji taught that there is a part of yourself that 'follows you around' and 'troubles you' is one of the most damaging things he did to us. It was a way to keep people attached to Maharaji, because the 'enemy is within' and is kind of a ghostly tormentor, after you all the time. Absolute bullshit, and very destructive.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:43:16 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind' Message:

Hi Joe, I wonder if he didn't have it about 20% right. It isn't so far-fetched that a 'part' of oneself can be disturbing. After all, it's a common belief in psychology that we take on elements in our environment and internalize them and give them life. For instance, a critical parent; even after their gone, they still leave a residue. I think maharaji capitalized on this occurrence and promised a solution. And I think the reason so many premies took it to heart was because their 'minds' or parts of themselves did trouble them. The dirty trick was that he didn't have a solution. And obviously, his characterization of the 'mind', or whatever it is that troubles people in their own heads, was greatly distorted to disguise the fact he didn't have a solution. He really went off the track with the 'Mr. Mind' business. He turned it into something satanic, and made himself the antidote. He also greatly distorted the consequences of not dealing with the 'mind', and especially of not dealing with it how he prescribed. Actually, most people who do nothing about what troubles them just plod on. And most people who follow maharaji are in a very peculiar hell. He just got confused on the details.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:23 (EDT) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?? Message:

In a thread below Francesca said to David Andersen (who has had the good sense to depart after admitting that he had an agenda to present the other side): We have an ex-premie Forum here for people to let their hair down, deconstruct, discuss. Then premies lurk, and where the ex-premies feel free to express themselves, if it is extreme, the premie lurkers just feel compelled to jump into the fray. Often when premies start posting, they are very angry. Your sister (Erika) was a notable exception. But this place was not created for committed premies, but they are free to be here, of course, and participate. So we end up with this odd situation where I would never say the kinds of things I say on this Forum to premie friends or family, because they would NOT want to hear it. Socially we avoid getting into a head-to-head confrontation on views that will necessarily be opposing, although we may discuss it a little. It is definitely not an 'us' and 'them' thing. But here, where the topic is what it is, confrontations happen that may not happen elsewhere. And tempers flare, and words flame. Sometimes the sensitive exes are really traumatized and stop posting here. And some of the premies feel like their views are not appreciated, but that's what Lifes Great is for. I responded to Francesca thus: You just said something to David that explains one of the big reasons that I have decided to limit my participation in the forum. More premies are coming here. In real life I am a live and let live kind of guy and would not dream of confronting premies or arguing with them. I have no right to attempt to convince someone else that I am right and they are wrong. Unfortunately as you say, this forum is for expremies who really can no longer stomach hearing the praises of rawat sung- no matter how kind and courteous the premie is. We react to singing his praises in much the same way premies react to us criticising him. It rubs us the wrong way. The expremie forum is not a level playing field anymore than Lifes Great is. The game on either side is rigged. I no longer post on LG for that reason. Why would I want to go into someone's house and criticise their furniture? Why would a premie want to come here?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:54:26 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: None To: PatC Subject: It was thru EPO I found Lifes Great, Message:

In a thread below Francesca said to David Andersen (who has had the good sense to depart after admitting that he had an agenda to present the other side): We have an ex-premie Forum here for people to let their hair down, deconstruct, discuss. Then premies lurk, and where the ex-premies feel free to express themselves, if it is extreme, the premie lurkers just feel compelled to jump into the fray. Often when premies start posting, they are very angry. Your sister (Erika) was a notable exception. But this place was not created for committed premies, but they are free to be here, of course, and participate. So we end up with this odd situation where I would never say the kinds of things I say on this Forum to premie friends or family, because they would NOT want to hear it. Socially we avoid getting into a head-to-head confrontation on views that will necessarily be opposing, although we may discuss it a little. It is definitely not an 'us' and 'them' thing. But here, where the topic is what it is, confrontations happen that may not happen elsewhere. And tempers flare, and words flame. Sometimes the sensitive exes are really traumatized and stop posting here. And some of the premies feel like their views are not appreciated, but that's what Lifes Great is for. I responded to Francesca thus: You just said something to David that explains one of the big reasons that I have decided to limit my participation in the forum. More premies are coming here. In real life I am a live and let live kind of guy and would not dream of confronting premies or arguing with them. I have no right to attempt to convince someone else that I am right and they are wrong. Unfortunately as you say, this forum is for expremies who really can no longer stomach hearing the praises of rawat sung- no matter how kind and courteous the premie is. We react to singing his praises in much the same way premies react to us criticising him. It rubs us the wrong way. The expremie forum is not a level playing field anymore than Lifes Great is. The game on either side is rigged. I no longer post on LG for that reason. Why would I want to go into someone's house and criticise their furniture? Why would a premie want to come here? --- M's page, the World wide Linkup and the lyrics to Arti. I also saw people I'd known posting. I saw people being verbally abusive, and I'm talking about exes to exes (exes to premies, especially our jerks in our Hate club - fortunately as small a minority as the exes in your hate club seems to be - we've got to sort of expect that, especially if we are rude enough to atempt satsang here. And so I started coming for 2 reasons, to see what was going on with old buds, and to seek to intervene when someone seemed to be being trashed inapropriately (IMO, of course). Ocasionally I come, now, to corect a misquote , or even a miscarachterization, of something I've said. I commit to you folks, I'll try and give you the kind of respect I want you to give me. I may use an alias, if I fear anti-premie bias on the part of some might obscure some point I wish to convey. But I know I am a guest here; even under an alias I will strive to be one worthy of welcome.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:19:08 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? Message:

PatC, I feel the same way about LG. Let the premies have their forum and say what they want without being nipped on the bud. But, coming over to the exes forum, is a whole other ball of wax. I would also like to express the importance of introducing yourself and letting people know what you are here for. Many of the premies give nothing. They want to take up our time. We exes can be far more potential if we let the ridiculous posts remain unchallenged. It's taking up valuable time. Where I disagree with you is posts from sincere and honest premies. I appreciate the honesty. And I applaud the honour and integrity to stand up for what they believe. The angry revisionists with the incoherent statements are better left unanswered by the 'had enoughs'. Someone else will pick them up or they'll hang impotently.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:57:41 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? Message:

Austrian Drapes? The furniture re-arranged? Fresh flowers ? OH MY GOD .......We've been burgled! Gay Burgulars! Pat why dont you just settle? They are ,until passwords are used, open public forums. All four. Reality is a bummer Pat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:20:09 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: I don't agree, Pussy Message:

You said; ''...forums. All four. Reality is a bummer Pat.'' I say: There are only three M related fora and reality is beautiful.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:45:32 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: PatC Subject: LG:pwks' denial;flamed me 4 discussing m-LOL [nt] Message:

LG:pwks' denial;flamed me 4 discussing m-LOL

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:04:03 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? Message:

PatC, I'm a bit confused why you would stop posting because more premies were posting now. This is a forum FOR past followers - says so right at the top. I thought you of all people would welcome a more open dialogue. Anyway, here is an exchange from below where David A. responded to just that question. I'm not sure he answered the question but there are some interesting and revealing statements in there. Richard RR: I am curious why you have been lurking (reading and not posting) for so long if you are satisfied with M&K. I also lurked here for quite some time and told myself it was National Enquirer type fascination or Premie Pornography. I was drawn to discussions on the forums because, even though I had quit practicing K several years before, there were still many unresolved issues. For myself, just writing about my experiences has been extremely rewarding. Richard DA:Great question. I have been observing here (lurking is kinda perjorative) for a while, and have been confronted and propelled into some amazing experiences by what I've read. It has confirmed the fact for me that my passion for Knowledge, and my love for Mr. Rawat, is simple, and true for me, and not based on a bunch of Hindu concepts, not based on other peoples' ideas. I have had the chance to spend quite a bit of time with M over the past 15 years, in many different private and public situations, and my perceptions of him,and his behavior, via my direct experience, are a radical departure from most of what has been said here. My reactions when I first started to come here were extremely emotional --- -like someone had attacked a family member, a child --- and then, gradually, I started to see that the attackers were people just like me, and that the seed of everything nasty I saw and judged in other people was in me as well. And the blame and anger and warlike stance kinda faded. My brother wrote an article for the New Yorker, which was never published (regretfully, IMO) that very intelligently and creatively looked at M and EV, and the EPO, and attempted to suss whether M and EV were, in fact, a cult or not. His opinion was no; his further opinion was that many of the posters on the EPO site had psychological issues that prevented them from letting go of old hurts and moving on. There have been a ton of mistakes made by people who thought they were serving M by treating other people like shit; there have been a ton of spiritual concepts jettisoned in 30 years; M, above all, is a human being, and to somehow freeze him in the space he was when he was 15, or 20, like a bug in amber, denies him his essential humanity: the right to grow, and change, and fail, and succeed. Should he apologize to people for the pain they experienced? Maybe. That's up to him. Would I apologize to people, if I was in his position, for my own growth and change? I just don't know. But the fact that he does or does not does not alter my love or respect for him. I've been around a lot of addicts and alcoholics in my life, and Maharaji is neither. He's a great dad. He's an incredibly funny and kind man. He treats those who serve him personally with tremendous respect. What can I tell you? This is my direct personal experience, based on last month, not 20 years ago. I loved M before I knew him personally, and I love him now. I absolutely support your right to see things a completely different way, and do not see you as flawed for doing so. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy. That's the crux, actually, of why the forum is ultimately exes' own worst enemy: the denial of an essential, bedrock validity to the lives of the people who practice K and love M. People aren't stupid. They eventually feel who's coming from where, and make their own informed decisions. I think you'll start to see a much richer dialogue now between exes and premies, and many more sites put up by pwks with their own story to tell, completely independent of EV. And I say bring it fucking on. Talk to you soon --- --- DA Thanks again for that David but, at least for now, you are the only premie willing to discuss his experiences and beliefs openly. I welcome more open dialogue as well. - RR

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:33:10 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: None To: Richard Subject: RR, David isn't the only premie willing to Message:

PatC, I'm a bit confused why you would stop posting because more premies were posting now. This is a forum FOR past followers - says so right at the top. I thought you of all people would welcome a more open dialogue. Anyway, here is an exchange from below where David A. responded to just that question. I'm not sure he answered the question but there are some interesting and revealing statements in there. Richard RR: I am curious why you have been lurking (reading and not posting) for so long if you are satisfied with M&K. I also lurked here for quite some time and told myself it was National Enquirer type fascination or Premie Pornography. I was drawn to discussions on the forums because, even though I had quit practicing K several years before, there were still many unresolved issues. For myself, just writing about my experiences has been extremely rewarding. Richard DA:Great question. I have been observing here (lurking is kinda perjorative) for a while, and have been confronted and propelled into some amazing experiences by what I've read. It has confirmed the fact for me that my passion for Knowledge, and my love for Mr. Rawat, is simple, and true for me, and not based on a bunch of Hindu concepts, not based on other peoples' ideas. I have had the chance to spend quite a bit of time with M over the past 15 years, in many different private and public situations, and my perceptions of him,and his behavior, via my direct experience, are a radical departure from most of what has been said here. My reactions when I first started to come here were extremely emotional --- -like someone had attacked a family member, a child --- and then, gradually, I started to see that the attackers were people just like me, and that the seed of everything nasty I saw and judged in other people was in me as well. And the blame and anger and warlike stance kinda faded. My brother wrote an article for the New Yorker, which was never published (regretfully, IMO) that very intelligently and creatively looked at M and EV, and the EPO, and attempted to suss whether M and EV were, in fact, a cult or not. His opinion was no; his further opinion was that many of the posters on the EPO site had psychological issues that prevented them from letting go of old hurts and moving on. There have been a ton of mistakes made by people who thought they were serving M by treating other people like shit; there have been a ton of spiritual concepts jettisoned in 30 years; M, above all, is a human being, and to somehow freeze him in the space he was when he was 15, or 20, like a bug in amber, denies him his essential humanity: the right to grow, and change, and fail, and succeed. Should he apologize to people for the pain they experienced? Maybe. That's up to him. Would I apologize to people, if I was in his position, for my own growth and change? I just don't know. But the fact that he does or does not does not alter my love or respect for him. I've been around a lot of addicts and alcoholics in my life, and Maharaji is neither. He's a great dad. He's an incredibly funny and kind man. He treats those who serve him personally with tremendous respect. What can I tell you? This is my direct personal experience, based on last month, not 20 years ago. I loved M before I knew him personally, and I love him now. I absolutely support your right to see things a completely different way, and do not see you as flawed for doing so. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy. That's the crux, actually, of why the forum is ultimately exes' own worst enemy: the denial of an essential, bedrock validity to the lives of the people who practice K and love M. People aren't stupid. They eventually feel who's coming from where, and make their own informed decisions. I think you'll start to see a much richer dialogue now between exes and premies, and many more sites put up by pwks with their own story to tell, completely independent of EV. And I say bring it fucking on. Talk to you soon --- --- DA Thanks again for that David but, at least for now, you are the only premie willing to discuss his experiences and beliefs openly. I welcome more open dialogue as well. - RR --- discuss his experiances openly and with respect for an exes having his/her own chosen perspective; there are a few of us. Since I am an unrepentant bhakti most of the time it will not be apropriate for here, but AG or LG are both available.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:57:55 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Carlos Subject: You are correct Carlos Message:

Glad you pointed that out and glad you are into conversation. Why else come except for civil exchange? RR

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:17:51 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com To: Richard Subject: Members of both the premie & ex hate Message:

Glad you pointed that out and glad you are into conversation. Why else come except for civil exchange? RR --- clubs come to these forums to spew hatred. NB exes: I am NOT talking about venting, even nasty as shit venting, against my guy. I understand that such may be helpful to you in shedding associations/attachments you want to get rid of. When I recognize venting, I don't see the venter as a hate club member. And I know that, thusfar, anyway, there aren't any real clubs. But it is a good descriptive phrase; I like it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:19:51 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Carlos Subject: I do my best to ignore ignoramuses Message:

Anybody being hateful is ignorant. I don't relate to this 'hate club' thing. I see it mentioned frequently, especially on Lifes Great (sikh) but don't notice much actual hatred per se. I notice ex's being much more outspoken, honest and specific and premies being more fearful, vague and evasive but not much hatred expressed either way. I think 'those hate club people' is a way of saying 'I'm afraid of having my belief system challenged'. Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:43:05 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com To: Richard Subject: I think it is (as most fools who use it Message:

Anybody being hateful is ignorant. I don't relate to this 'hate club' thing. I see it mentioned frequently, especially on Lifes Great (sikh) but don't notice much actual hatred per se. I notice ex's being much more outspoken, honest and specific and premies being more fearful, vague and evasive but not much hatred expressed either way. I think 'those hate club people' is a way of saying 'I'm afraid of having my belief system challenged'. Richard --- do so) the actions of a few being credited not just to the ones who did it but to the whole group of which they are a small and, in this case, IMO, NOT representative sub-group. That's one of the reasons I stress there is a 'Premie Hate Club' as well as an Ex Hate Club'. We both have our fringe subgroup of sickos who go to far. At least, they seem sick to me because I find their tactics abusive and all abuse is sisk as far as I am concerned.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:04:11 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Carlos Subject: I disagree, Carlos Message:

Since I am an unrepentant bhakti most of the time it will not be apropriate for here, but AG or LG are both available. I think your input is valuable here even if you are a bit of an anachronism. People need to recall (or hear for the first time) what it really means to be a premie. I admire your straight forward honesty, and your polite style certainly engenders respect.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:23:33 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com To: gerry Subject: I meant that sharing my experiance in Message:

Since I am an unrepentant bhakti most of the time it will not be apropriate for here, but AG or LG are both available. I think your input is valuable here even if you are a bit of an anachronism. People need to recall (or hear for the first time) what it really means to be a premie. I admire your straight forward honesty, and your polite style certainly engenders respect. --- ways that were, for me, unavoidably going to be singing his praises would be inapropriate here. I certainly hope my input can be valuable to others besides myself. Thank you for your encouragement and endorsement, Gerry.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:21:47 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: I disagree, Carlos - me too Message:

But Gerry, Carlos really is not a gameplayer or a timewaster. He is as honest as the day he was born and I always enjoy talking to him. Carlos, as far as I'm concerned you are completely welcome. You are refreshingly uncynical and sincere. I stopped posting over on LG because I felt that I had nothing to contribute. Criticism of M and K on LG as far as I'm concerned is bad manners.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:27:59 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com To: PatC Subject: Pat, you can contribute on LG without Message:

But Gerry, Carlos really is not a gameplayer or a timewaster. He is as honest as the day he was born and I always enjoy talking to him. Carlos, as far as I'm concerned you are completely welcome. You are refreshingly uncynical and sincere. I stopped posting over on LG because I felt that I had nothing to contribute. Criticism of M and K on LG as far as I'm concerned is bad manners. --- dissing M just as I can contribute here without promoting him, if you care to do so. No question of bad manners then; and I, for one, will miss you if you don't come back. Thank you for your kind words and endorsment, too. I'll try and desrve them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? Message:

Thanks for bringing that post forward. I think David's candid and etremely honest comments are refreshing. His comments, however, are strongly based on his personal feeling about M, the man, and friend whose crib he visits. That's okay. But it has nothing to do with the perpetual fraud of his MASTER-ship and exclusive dissipation of the Hindu memditation techniques. This is what it all comes down to at the moment. it is not about not knowing how to let go of the past, but presenting evidence of the past in light of M's consistent and persistant denial. He owes apologies for everyone who received techniques, devoted their lives, killed themselves, got hurt by members of organization, wasted their youth, retarded their career, and impotententalized their sexuality. This was a cruel hoax to perpetuate. How can you forgive someone who has not apologized? He just makes execuses. I believe David loves M has a man and Maharaji is very lucky to have redeeming qualities. He is very lucky to have a sincere, honest, and personally forgiving friend who may be the perfect person to help him through this exposure. But David, if you are reading this, M has not stopped. Many premies still believe in the Maharaji as God-singularity existing as both inner and outer in form. Maharaji asked them for their lives and the premies don't even get his phone number. They still call him MASTER. M, the stage M, is not honest about K or himself. He relies on the premies to relay the 'truth' of his master-devotee relationship. Why would people spend their rent (let alone retirement funds) to travel thousands of miles to see him as a figure head for a couple of hours. Why? Why visit a Hindu opportunist unless you had underlying belief system of him being the bridge to this so-called connection. Connection to what? Maharaji is saying 'intellectually arresting' comments and the premies are cheering. He could say 'dogshit' and they'd have the same experience. They project 'You are my master, how blessed I am to be in your presence' onto him. And he knows it! And he does nothing to stop it. Why should David A. have to come here and explain that it was all a concept. Of course it was a concept.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:31:41 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: Richard Subject: You answered your own question Message:

Richard you asked me why I would stop posting because more premies are coming here. At the end of your post to david Andersen you said: ''Thanks again for that David but, at least for now, you are the ONLY (my emphasis) premie willing to discuss his experiences and beliefs openly. I welcome more open dialogue as well. - RR'' Yes, David was sane and courteous. Most of the current premie posters are anonymous and/or nasty and superficial. I prefer to keep positive company that is open, loving and sincere.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:26:34 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Richard Subject: Wrong crux Message:

David sounds very similiar to any other well spoken and sincere member of what most people would consider a fringe group at best and probably a cult. I personally find nothing in his post which is either compelling or convincing. Rawat's a saint, the devotees are fucked up worms who have 'made tons of mistakes thinking they are serving M.' Ho hum. Where's the 'rich dialogue' in that?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:56 (EDT) From: SF Email: None To: PatC Subject: It's like any newsgroup Message:

meaning who the hell knows why they post here? Can you imagine going over to a Right to Choose group and posting the opposite view? My guess there is a mix: Sincere premies who want to explain their side are the minority but they have come along a few times (I think). Then there are the cases with nothing better to do who like to get a reaction. Or perhaps worse, their delusions cause them to think they can actually shut us up, one by one if not as a group. And finally, I have to agree with you there are so many more things to do. I am happy I have met you, and all the San Francisco and area ex's . I am forever thankful to Nige, Jim, Katie, Joe, Ellen.. the list goes on for the help they gave me when I first came to these sites. Don't any of you underestimate the power of the pages you have put up on the EPO site or the power of your voice. They changed my life for the better in so many ways. And the stubborn Irish side to me will not go away simply because I am hissed at from time to time. We have a unique breed of reptile (frog?) here called a horned toad. It hisses and spits blood when it feels threatened but is basically harmless otherwise. Like you, I have become involved in other things that are interesting and time consuming and the natural result has been less time here. L, Selene

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:01:56 (EDT) From: ps from SF (selene) Email: None To: SF Subject: the here that I meant Message:

when I said we had the horned toads living 'here' was my actual back yard, not 'here' as on the pages. Why on earth I felt the need to explain that is odd but understandable I suppose.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:00:08 (EDT) From: Gray Davis Email: None To: PatC Subject: It's the cheese (nt) Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:24:23 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: All Subject: Hey Dave. Message:

Is there some fucked-up premie creep posting under several names in Abi's thread below? May I request the asshole be banned? Anth the reasonable

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:18:20 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: AJW Subject: If I may be more forthcoming...:) Message:

Just a stupid pun. Nothing to add.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:41:23 (EDT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Hey Nigel Message:

Nice one! Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:51:00 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Ian Dury? I thought you were dead.. Message:

Hit me with your rhythm stick, indeed... Nige (there ain't 'arf been some clever bastards...lucky bleeders, lucky bleeders)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:52:53 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: AJW Subject: Hey Dave. I third that. Message:

I'm sick of trolls, anonymous or not. --f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:42:48 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Hey Dave - I second that Message:

''Jean-Michel Dettmers'' et al is obviously malicious.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:19 (EDT) From: wolfie Email: None To: All Subject: a little entertainment Message:

Hi everyone, here are a the lyrics from a song I made during a stay at the programm in Rome 1990. It is somehow expressing my state of mind at that time and I'm glad, that I did not express false and stupid praises for MJ. Here it goes: there are days where you feel strong and there are days where you feel weak ..........everybody has a hungry heart love can make you feel so good love can hurt you deep..... tears of passion rolling down my cheeks hi Christine Belange, you came from France maybe tomorrow it will rain hi Marie Elaine, you came from Spain maybe tomorrow you will see have you seen Rick, I've heard he stoned he feels alone and does not know, which way to go and here I sit, all by myself and I rejoice, in the wind of my soul for a moment I was shocked I thought I've lost the summer no, I don't need an umbrella to shelter me from rain ..no I don't people came from Africa were dancing in a pizza-bar but the Pope said no music on sunday...no music on sunday hi my friend I'm surprised you travell round the world without any Visa, any creditcard hi my friend sleep in my bed I'll sleep on the floor cause the nights are still too cold outside in Rome have you seen Deborah she eats no meat she's still in prison but...she smile so sweet but...she smiles so sweet.....pling pling...end just for my friends out there in the cyberspace who don't care about my broken english ciao ......have a good time ..everyone......wolfie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:47:22 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Wolfie, what was the rawat kids video like? [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:01:56 (EDT) From: crabby Horse }( Email: None To: All Subject: Mr. D. Message:

It's really hard to read the messages when you open a thread because you have centered everything. Can't tell who is bumping who. Can you align messages to the left so the order or responce will be seen, yours, Crabby Horse

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:59:32 (EDT) From: Mr D Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: crabby Horse }( Subject: Re: Mr. D. Message:

I just tried it and can't see any difference. Threads just run down on the the left instead of centre. I don't know what you mean at al.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:08:21 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Mr D Subject: Re: Mr. D. Message:

Dave, With all the posts' headers being centred and of different lengths, it's not possible, when viewing the thread while reading a message, to see which posts are responses to which posts. Try it with a long thread, and compare with AG. John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:05:41 (EDT) From: Crabby Horse }( Email: None To: JHB Subject: yah Message:

Click the first post by PatC above, scroll down and looks at the way the post appear. Looks like shit. In the Html code, the whole table [which where everything is] is centred, yah? Take the Center tag off, yah?[ put don't ask for help is the whole think is fucked up, yah?]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index