Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 13, 2001 To: Jul 20, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Patrick Wilson -:- To David Anderson (part 1) -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:54:05 (EDT)
__ David Andersen -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:03:33 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- I think that's kind of dangerous -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:40:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ David Andersen -:- Re: I think that's kind of dangerous -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:24:04 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:58:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Francesca maybe a BEST OF FORUM -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:30:11 (EDT)
__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ David AndersEn with an E -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:16:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:26:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Credibility and pianos -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:22:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Credibility and pianos -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:23:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- Brilliant, Patrick [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:05:21 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- ''Blame is evil' ?? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:02:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Great posts, Patrick and Dermot, thanks (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:39:59 (EDT)
__ __ wolfie -:- real and deep love before I knew him -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:55:58 (EDT)
__ Amsterdam -:- To Patrcik -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
__ __ Steve -:- Re: To Amsterbjorn -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:07:01 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- On 'Sulking' -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:27:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: On 'Sulking' -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:53:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Your alias is anagram of 'Mad Master'! - Cool... -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:09:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh come on, be fair -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:18:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:28:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ daisy -:- Re: It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:23:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:52:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ashram Abuse -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:29:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ deborah -:- Re: Remember the Deprogramming -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:08:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: Ashram Abuse -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:14:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :( -:- And isn't it a shame you'd get judged as a whiner -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:49:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: P.S. I had fun, too. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:24:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: P.S. I had fun, too. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:54:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:17:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Above post meant for Amsterdam NT -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:30:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: about ahsrams -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:16:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To NEW READERS -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- I try my best to be fair -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:13:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: I try my best to be fair -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:35:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: Ashram -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:16:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Ashram -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:59:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: Ashram etc. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:59:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Amsterdam too much circumlocution!!! NT -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:04:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: Amsterdam too much circumlocution!!! NT -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:08:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Ok Ok i read itagain and -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:39:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- AND AMSTERDAM -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:43:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Re: AND AMSTERDAM -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:50:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Oh come on, be fair -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:58:09 (EDT)
__ such -:- V Gd post! (nt -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:42 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Thank you, Patrick -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:43:42 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:42:16 (EDT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 13:22:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:05:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:02:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:39:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- How do you know? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:12:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Isabella -:- How do you know? [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:56:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You never answered the 'how do you know?' -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:33:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- PMFJI -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:40:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: PMFJI -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:22:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nurse Tessa -:- Doctor! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:14:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Re: Fraud! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:26:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:30:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: One of David's responses to me -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:37:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: One of David's responses to me -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:17:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David A -:- Re: One of David's responses to me -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:12:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Another question for David Andersen -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:27:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yes Way, good post (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:03:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ wolfie -:- very good questions nt -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ David Andersen -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:07:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:11:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David A. -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:17:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Gee, David, -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:22:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ David A. -:- Re: Gee, David, -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:23:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ;C) -:- donner YOU !** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:11:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Personal Observation -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:28:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Personal Observation -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:25:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ like est to landmark forum -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:39:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SF -:- last msg from selene -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:40:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- David A... -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:02:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS ! -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:31:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ David Andersen -:- Re: PS ! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: PS ! -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:22:44 (EDT)

Krusty the Klown -:- More questions for ForumGod, or FA or whatever -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 23:02:41 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Questions for Krusty. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:47:50 (EDT)
__ __ Amsterdam -:- Info for Anth. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:21:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Amsterdam -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:53:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- One more thing -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:19:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Well you just proved yourself wrong -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:16:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- To Anth -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:35:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- ToJethro -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 09:44:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- EV On-line Brochures -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:24:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Where's the Enjoyimg life forum -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:23:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Amsterdam or Krusty -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 09:52:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ mayo -:- lies all lies you liar -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:09:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: lies all lies you liar -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:16:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mayo -:- you misrepresent me -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:28:25 (EDT)
__ Mr D -:- Re: More questions for ForumGod, or FA or whatever -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:09:30 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: More questions for ForumGod, or FA or whatever -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:02:24 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Read the top of the page -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 00:05:25 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Salam, what's LG and where is it? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:50:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- What LG he says. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 05:58:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Salam, what's LG and where is it? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 05:12:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Krusty the Klown -:- Yes, a destructive agenda -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 10:57:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- Thas right! -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:55:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Clarification -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:00:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ church mouse -:- Oh God, she is so...unbearably -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:26:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CAT! -:- Re: Oh God, she is so...unbearably -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:29:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The exterminator -:- another computer and someone else's handle? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:59:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CAT! -:- m-bots -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:04:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Some good sugestions, Krusty -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:16:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Krusty the Klown -:- Thanks for clearing that up -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:01:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You sound like you're ... -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:00:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- you are welcome -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:46:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Thanks for clearing that up -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:44:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- Re: Thanks for clearing that up -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:42:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: No Thank you for clearing that up -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:42:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Big typos in sentence above -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:53:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- A stolen phrase -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:05:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: A stolen phrase -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:09:16 (EDT)

Anth's post -:- from the deceased forum -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 21:51:41 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- For the record. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:32:21 (EDT)
__ __ Mayo -:- Oh no don't deny the truth -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:43:45 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: For the record. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 05:17:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mayo -:- Hey you -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:52:19 (EDT)
__ from Suchies post -:- How to surrender Anth -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 21:57:47 (EDT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- today:sex with a guru -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 13:07:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: today:sex with a guru -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:33:13 (EDT)

Brian and Katie -:- Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:42:37 (EDT)
__ Richard Wallace -:- Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:12:30 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 23:15:42 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Hail, hail, the gang's still here -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:28:50 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 20:37:47 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 20:03:14 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:53:26 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- what is the Moon Lodge -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:31:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: what is the Moon Lodge -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:04:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Gotcha -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:55:57 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- A beautiful transfer of power -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:07:02 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Attn: EXCITED-You asked me to email you (OT) -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 17:47:53 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Typo: EXITED-You asked me to email you (OT) -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:47:13 (EDT)

AJW -:- Forum 6. -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 16:27:57 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Forum 6. -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:30:38 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Dave. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:18:00 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- Additional questions -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 17:59:42 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Additional questions -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:43:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Colors (colours) -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:56:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Line breaks -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 23:39:17 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Additional questions -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 18:05:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Additional questions -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 18:07:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Additional questions -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 18:20:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Additional questions -:- Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:50:11 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:54:05 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: All
Subject: To David Anderson (part 1)
Message:
Hi David A,

I remember your music too. I saw you at Tim Hain's house a few years back and thought you played a mean lap steel. It's a good development to see people posting with their real names and also being civil to each other. I would like to chat with you about my experiences (I was involved with doing music for Maharaji on and off for some years). I guess we may have some experiences in common.

I have been interested to talk amongst people on these forums for some years because I felt that there was some arrrested development and disfunctional stuff amongst premies that could be addressed, even healed by talking. I also have always felt quite strongly that Maharaji himself has some clear responsibilty in the way that those peoples lives panned out, who followed his recomendations to adopt a certain lifestyle - a lifestyle which he encouraged us to focus on more and more - exclusively serving him and surrendering one's own desires.

I received Knowledge when I was 17 (in '74) and my life became totally absorbed into following Maharaji. I actually was a rather good musician myself at that young age and soon my musical aspirations naturally transformed into the desire to play music for M. Basically I used (like everyone else) to follow M around the world for many years and soon got the message that he wanted us to 'surrender our lives' .

I lived in Brighton in the UK in the seventies. Mike Finch and I started the ashram there, under the watchful eye of David Smith, Charanand etc. For me it was an intense ride because I never really got my youthful desires fullfilled and, although I put my enthusiasm and good faith into going in the direction Maharaji recommended, there was an underlying heartbreak at having to deny the things in life that I had so much wanted to do -ie (at that age) play around with girls, get high, play music and get a band together - be successful etc.. I just had all this stuff coming at me to surrender, and being sincere and, in truth, quite intimidated by Maharaji as 'The Master', the supposed Divine Authority, I felt pressured and extremely obligated to sacrifice my life to serve him. This was absolutely irrefutably because of the tone of Maharaji's satsangs at the time which I was listening to very, very closely. I heard him be very clear and demanding about this 'surrender' stuff. To a sincere young man it was very humbing and even 'humiliating' if you will. I know I wasn't getting 'the wrong end of the stick' of Maharaji's message, because I made a point to try to practice Knowledge the way he wanted, not, as he would warn, by ' fitting Knowledge into my life' but rather by 'giving my life to Knowledge - to Him'. That was his message at that time and the consequences are still with us and are playing out.

It didn't help that Maharaji appointed guys like David Smith who personally put the absolute shits up me and many others about how we should surrender and give up our own desires etc.- and I have to say that I consider this was essentially Maharaji's responsibility because Smith was merely passing on, with a really heavy vibe, Maharaji's strict edicts to potential ashram members .

I gave in to this requirement with a trusting heart for years, living in the ashram and giving up evrything I loved, which as you can imagine was itself awrenching sacrifice. Can you believe it, but Maharaji was quite clear that we should cut ties with family. For me this was a sad development because I had a wonderful family and an elderly father who died whilst I was in the ashram and whom I rarely saw.

Eventually in about 1980, Barry Evans (who knew I had been a reasonably good guitar player) was given the 'service' of getting some 'surrendered' musicians together and he rescued me from my distant ashram post (where I was basically miserable and frustrated) and I did some music with them in London. Actually it was a weird time but we had fun being a more loose lot - Danny Ellis, Tim Hain, Tony Wade, Barry, Paul Mattocks, Lorna, Jim Gaffney, are a few names that come to mind as being good friends from that period.

Later the powers that be decided we were having too much fun for 'ashram' premies and Danny and I got sent to the most distant God-forsaken ashram to do penance (Dick Cooper being the guy in charge then in the UK). Another miserable period ensued for me then which ended when I was unceremoniously slung out by the co-ordinator of that particular ashram. (who had been told to weed out people who were anything other than totally without their own agendas and servile.

My widowed mum took me back in and with some money left to me by my father (who had just died) I bought an 8-track recording system and started making inroads into the TV music world. Frankly ifit hadn't been for this ashram/ surrender debacle I know that I would have had a much better shot at making a musical career, although I have to say that the huge effort I then made , aged 25 in 1981, to establish an income doing music , has paid off quite well.

Ironically, after being 'liberated' from the ashram system my dream of meeting Maharaji came true. I used to supply Visions with tracks for M's videos quite often, and I guess for a while I was sort of flavour of the month for background music. I met Maharaji on several occasions at Reigate, to chat with him about synths and stuff, which he was becoming interested in. Later he came to my house in Brighton with Peter Dawson, Monica and Mike Woods who filmed him tinkering with keyboards and stuff for a clip.

Later I went to LA, rehearsed with Geoff and Kim et al, and played guitar at Rome, Madrid and some other places -did some recordiing and stuff. I got to see quite a lot of Maharaji and his family and the 'backstage' scenario. I too felt a much more natural connection with Maharaji and he seemed friendly enough. I did notice that those around him were often very tense and uptight in his presence and that made me uncomfortable. Also I felt that he did little to discourage this obsequiousness -in fact I judged that he kind of rather liked it that way.

I have just found that I have very gradually backed off from the whole scene and now, with hindsight, feel that the period of my life spent being an aspirant and ashram premie was in many ways, a deeply unhappy and unneccessary experience. Of course I made many friends and I learned a lot, as one does in all difficult situations in life anyway.

Regarding Maharaji's controversial lifestyle - the reports of his various behaviours that paint the picture of a Master with feet very much of clay - I would say this:

For the sake of discerning the truth, I have gone out of my way to talk with the people who feel so strongly that they have reported this 'secret' or supposedly 'private' stuff. Most notably perhaps I met Michael Dettmers and asked him to explain himself to me personally over a meal whilst he was in London. After talking at length with him I could tell that he was compelled through conscience to speak out about things that he felt were grave inconsistencies that Maharaji was responsible for, that had a damaging effect on people. I
was open to this possibility because I too had increasingly seen that painful things that had happened in the past were effectively being swept under the carpet in the name of 'being positive' , ignoring the negativity etc -rather than being dealt with. I have since got to know Michael quite well and I believe that his reports about his experiences with Maharaji are all true and that any truly concientious premie should examine their feelings very closely about what these things really say about their image of who Maharaji is and what kind of pedestal he be put on.

I personally felt that Maharaji had never addressed my painful experiences in the ashram, and that, although a more lenient and 'lighter' chapter seemed to be the order of the day, I still hurt badly underneath from what I can only describe as the 'abuse' that went on and this was somehow being denied. Having invested so much trust in Maharaji over the years, to learn that he may not have been so deserving of such enormous trust and yet had demanded it and indeed 'inspired it' back then, was deeply upsetting. Maharaji does not seem to care that those who really gave up a lot in the past to follow him, and who probably trusted him a hell of a lot more than those who nowadays have to give up very little and are not made to feel guilty about pursuing their own lives and agendas, have had to face an enormous blow when their faith has been so catastrophically tested. Not only does Maharaji not want to explain why he demanded us to give up so much but he apparently condones that premies virtually deny a lot of home truths.

Naturally, even though one has been taught to ignore doubts, it is hard to do so when one's better sense and indeed one's heart and conscience are screaming that one does a reality check on one's life as a premie. What we see now is a natural backlash from people who know what actually went on - who invested a lot and who feel that Maharaji has not met their trust and commitment with any kind of the love, care and concern that one would hope from someone claiming to be inspired by divine love.

Like you, I developed a personal love for Maharaji. I have purposely backed away from his influence because I did not enjoy it any longer. I feel that this was directly because Maharaji never addressed the deep hurt I nursed from surrendering my youth so totally to him in the seventies. It'sd just down to that. I could have had so much of a better time. When I see him and his family enjoying so much the pleasures of the world I cannot help but remember how my youth was spent often in deep pain at having to give up friends, family, things that I loved to do, to spend years - whole weekends sometimes in endless satsangs - doing menial boring jobs in places and with people I didn't particularlyy gel with, crying under my meditation blanket - confused as to why I had to endure such a tough test of faith.

Quite honestly, I find that I have been so relieved to stop being around premies and the whole scene. If anyone likes it that's fine - but my experience is that the way it is has stifled the development of some very sincere beautiful human beings whom I loved -and I hate to see them proclaiming to be in touch with Truth and love etc whilst clearly lacking the guts, conscience or empathy to see that their 'exclusive' experience and insight about life is in many ways a blinkered and narrow one.

If you see Maharaji, would you say hi from me and add that I think that he would help himself and a lot of former and current premies by facing up to these issues and being a bit less remote and vague about the past . He obviously thinks it's fine to just abandon people like myself to our doubts rather than explain himself more - he is more concerned with spreading 'Knowledge Lite' to a new generation of people than helping those former premies who gave up their lives for him and are having huge difficulty in coming to terms as adults with what hit them.

If he wants to know why I don't want to be involved these days it is because I find it hard to truly trust someone who put me through so much pain when I was a naive and trusting kid, and who cannot find it in their heart to so much as offer any clarity or explanation. It is not good enough just to be told to not doubt in the face of such personal experiences.

I'm sorry but I don't believe that what Maharaji is doing is so wholesome or right. It hurts to have to make harsh judgements about someone whom one worshipped and loved for years - but it this is about moving on and growing - learning -honesty and integrity. It has to be done.

Regarding meditation and the idea of Masters etc. I would say that I feel there is an obvious case for the benefits of teachers who do not abuse the trust of their pupils and who do not put themselves 'above' their pupils to the point where they take on an authoritarian role.
I think that meditation is arguaby a practice (amongst others) that benefits from some kind of structure and ecouragement from a teacher or individuals. I have continued to meditate pretty much as I was originally shown and can report that even without associating it in one's mind with Maharaji -and even nursing some rejection of the notion of it being anything to do with him -it still works. There is however a dynamic I fully admit, whereby in the atmosphere of Satsang and when one invests trust in the teacher, one is clearly encouraged to practice more etc. I think that the degree to which one associates the experience exclusively with the adopted teacher (in our case Maharaji) is more to do with wishful thinking and a learned response than reality.

In my experience it has been very enlightning and a relief to actually do less meditation and to reject the subtle pressure and sense of being bound to practicing that all the promises, vows and warnings produced. There are other things in life and I really think that as premies we generally became so obsessed with the 'high' feelings in meditation to the point where we often could not think straight. That we then became vulnerable to the influence of some a very questionable Guru system that has it's roots in a medieval society that ran largely on fear and inequality is something to learn from not to deny.

Richard's '14 Objections' are a reasonable collection of issues which anyone with intelligence and integrity would agree need to be openly addressed. Otherwise Maharaji and his followers are always going to be dogged with skeletons in the cupboard that people with real integrity cannot simply and selfishly ignore.

Premies often say of people who criticise Maharaji or who have reported some controversial thing they witnessed that put them off 'That's not my experience -so it doesn't matter' . To my mind this sort of attitude indicates a lack of empathy, sense of truthfulness and human responsibiliy to each other, that seems an unfortunate and yet common trait of premies.

I think that it is telling that whilst premies have mainly put up websites that refute and deny the issues 'carte-blanche' without even daring to look into them, -it is former followers on the whole who feel compelled to rein in Maharaji's onward gallup saying 'Hang on a minute, before you go marching so confidently ahead telling anyone with a problem to get lost -we think that the next bunch of people who you woo into trusting you know that you HAVE a past and some responsibility's outstanding!'

If these things degenerate into ugly battles and displays of hatred by premies and exes in equal measure, then I would say that this reflects Maharaji's contentment to remain uninvolved. I see his reluctance to comment with any and take resposibility as less of a 'Lotus-like' detachment, but more of a fearful reluctance to be seen as less-than-perfect- which the process of openly confronting his more prosaic past and his effect on others would undoubtedly reveal.

I would like to discuss and talk about these things with you and others more. I'm afraid that I may not be able to post for a week or so after Wednesday but I'll look in when I can.
I sincerely hope that this new forum can prove to be a postive development towards 'flame-free' communication.

I would encourage all posters to not be anonymous since I have found it to be personally rewarding to be up-front and accountable. I have taken Knowledge and Maharaji most seriously all my life and now that I have identified that fear has long been a factor in the equation of the dynamic with Maharaji, I am seriously committed to putting my money where my mouth and kicking out fearful behaviour for good.
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:03:33 (EDT)
From: David Andersen
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: To David Anderson
Message:
Hey, Patrick
---
--
An amazing post. I honor your honesty, and have a lot of respect for anyone who follows their own compass. Naturally, you and I disagree on a whole wide range of things, but I truly felt saddened when you were describing the pain and sense of loss you experienced. It's very late at night where I am, and don't want to disrespect you with a short post, or seem like I'm preaching, teaching, or moralizing, so that's really all I can say with any real juice
---
that I'm touched by your honesty, and I'm hurt by the pain you express. If we were friends, and had a trusting, man-to-man relationship, I would say more to you
---
-if you're open to some feedback from a fellow member of your sub-species (musos) I could contact you offline.

I loved Maharaji, with a real and deep love, for 15 years before I knew him. I don't know why, rationally; I can't explain it causally, except to say that I've always had a passion for Knowledge, and I see it now as true independence
---
an absolutely reliable means of access to joy, independent of my usual and favorite catalysts: nature, music, my kids, reading, laughter,pianos, friends, spliffage, anthropology, etc. etc. etc. Joy is joy. The joy that Knowledge brings is the same joy this other stuff brings, IMO. But K is independent, available 24/7/365, totally private, totally portable, not dependent on any idea or philosophy or set of beliefs
---
--it's the fucking bomb, the real deal, to me. So I guess you could construe that as a reason to love and honor
M
---
he made it available to me. But I just loved him from the first time I saw him; knew he was for real, and knew he was my guy. I've questioned that thousands of times over the years; but the questions have never been stronger or more real than the ancient love I feel.
Trippy and cornball, huh? Well, maybe, but that's the way it is for me
---
and that does NOT prevent me from being a fully functioning human, a talented craftsman, an artist, an intellectual, all the things I am in the world of relationships.
'Blame is evil,' as my lovely daughter so wisely said to me several months ago
---
and I'm finding out how true that is each day in my own life. I feel strong and powerful; I feel like a good man, and I feel like taking responsibility, ownership, of each and every choice I've ever made in my adult life. To me, blame is a sickness that has hurt me continually my entire adult life, and with some solid therapeutic work, I'm really coming out the other side of it. Feels great. Highly recommend it, when the hunger & commitment is there.
Was I ever afraid of M? Yes, of course
---
I projected a shiteload of fear onto him. Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No
---
I sincerely can't think of anything.

Now I guess I'm rambling, but I wanted to honor your taking the mask off with some of my own vulnerability
---
-posting here feels like a risk, in a way: I've seen people get hatefully flamed and beaten up; the reason I began to post is that I felt something new, some real attempt across the Great Divide to be civil, to try and understand what are seemingly alien positions....we're all just flawed human beings, trying to make sense of life.

To bed. Take care, Patrick....maybe more later about the repressed English persona....you whingeing tosser :--) xoDA

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:40:00 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: I think that's kind of dangerous
Message:
David, thanks for the response, all I can say is that after I rejected knowledge and Maharaji, I didn't feel any change. My level of happiness, I think, is pretty good. I guess I have a question for you though: Knowledge makes you happy, but compared to what? Are you saying you are happier than you were before you received knowledge? What makes you say that? Were you miserable before?

And I guess you can't really compare until you get out from under it. I mean, as long as you believe it really gives you 'the juice' or that 'the juice' you get, from wherever it comes is due to 'knowledge', then I don't think you will really know. All I can say is that I discovered there is all kinds of happiness, and the essence, the experience of 'life' in all it's wonder, really has nothing to do with some meditation practice, or belief in a master.

M
---
he made it available to me. But I just loved him from the first time I saw him; knew he was for real, and knew he was my guy. I've questioned that thousands of times over the years; but the questions have never been stronger or more real than the ancient love I feel.

Well, to each his own, as they say. I can't relate, but I guess there's somebody for everybody, as they say, and no accounting for love or taste. I never felt that, which makes me wonder about Maharaji's so-called universal appeal. Maybe you just like the guy, maybe a whole lot, and that might color a lot of things. It's like that Rogers and Hammerstein song from Cinderella that asks: 'do I love you because you're beautiful, or are you beautiful because I ove you?' Maybe that's a little bit relevant, and perhaps you aren't the most objective when it comes to Maharaji, and maybe you don't want to be. I do. I need to be. I have to be. I couldn't live any other way.

To me, blame is a sickness that has hurt me continually my entire adult life, and with some solid therapeutic work, I'm really coming out the other side of it. Feels great. Highly recommend it, when the hunger & commitment is there.

I think there is a big difference between 'blame' in the sense that you are usurping responsibility and projecting it on others, and understanding WHO is really responsible for what happened.

One of the downsides from your 'no blame' philosophy is a kind of fuzzy new-age extreme conservatism, that whatever happens is what is supposed to happen, or some kind of EST-nonsense that the individual is 'responsible' for all that happens to them. I find that very dangerous and irresponsbile. I think it leads to the sickness of 'blaming' one's self, and perhaps never really developing the boundaries between my own responsibility and those of others. Plus, it can really make you a victim, and that's really damaging to the self-esteem.

Was I ever afraid of M? Yes, of course
---
I projected a shiteload of fear onto him. Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No
---
I sincerely can't think of anything.

Well, here you are implying that it was all 'projection' and perhaps you will tell us next that Maharaji is just a mirror. Yeah, right. Maharaji exuded fear quite often, and I recall numerous times when he told us we were worthless pieces of dust, that we didn't even have the right to look at him, that terrible things would happen to us if we ever left him or the practice of knowledge, etc. Yes, there was lots of fear. I found premies to be some of the most fearful people I have ever known. They were afraid to utter even one negative thing about Maharaji.

Try it David. Anything you don't like about Mahararji? Anything you think he has really screwed up? Come on, tell us.

Was I ever afraid of M? Yes, of course
---
I projected a shiteload of fear onto him. Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No
---
I sincerely can't think of anything.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:24:04 (EDT)
From: David Andersen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: I think that's kind of dangerous
Message:
Joe
---
your anger is tiresome.

I have said freely and openly I don't know, haven't a clue, how life works, whether things are fated to happen, chaos theory, grand plan, blind chance(which I personally doubt); but I don't KNOW. If you think you know how it works, God bless ya.
A woman recently said to me, 'the trick is to let go of the blame you have for other people, and not beat yourself up.' Exactly.
I don't understand you, I guess. How do you take responsibility, and at the same time be a victim? I have an active distaste for the New Age, btw. IMHO, almost everything in life is a choice, inside and out.
My self-esteem is just fine, ego intact, and I am not a victim, by any stretch of the imagination.

I wonder if you see just how disrespectful you get
---
an edge of put-down, a casual insult; do you think that people can't see that, and don't suss that your anger colors a lot of your expression? I don't like it
---
it's not an honorable thing. I absolutely honor your right to live and perceive life as you see fit; by your own words you seem to be happy and well-adjusted; why do you feel you have to put me down, basically dismiss my deepest experiences? That feels off
---
out of sync with your assertions.
--you wrote:

All I can say is that I discovered there is all
kinds of happiness, and the essence, the experience of 'life' in all it's
wonder........

That's good. If that's really what you experience that's great for you. If you're fulfilled, that's beautiful. Sincerely.
Please respect me seeking my own fulfillment my own way
---
-or don't. Your choice. I'll be a lot more inclined to dialogue with you if you do.

OK--be good......DA

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:58:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: To David Anderson
Message:
Dear David,

Hearfelt post from your own point of view, David. I don't care whether or not I agree with you, because of course I don't. But I'm certainly not going to flame you. I have said before, not sure whether you saw it on FV, that this is an unusual situation. We have an ex-premie Forum here for people to let their hair down, deconstruct, discuss. Then premies lurk, and where the ex-premies feel free to express themselves, if it is extreme, the premie lurkers just feel compelled to jump into the fray. Often when premies start posting, they are very angry. Your sister was a notable exception. But this place was not created for committed premies, but they are free to be here, of course, and participate.

So we end up with this odd situation where I would never say the kinds of things I say on this Forum to premie friends or family, because they would NOT want to hear it. Socially we avoid getting into a head-to-head confrontation on views that will necessarily be opposing, although we may discuss it a little. It is definitely not an 'us' and 'them' thing. But here, where the topic is what it is, confrontations happen that may not happen elsewhere. And tempers flare, and words flame. Sometimes the sensitive exes are really traumatized and stop posting here. And some of the premies feel like their views are not appreciated, but that's what Lifes Great is for.

One thing though, I've got a memory like a steel trap, at times. You said:
'Blame is evil,' as my lovely daughter so wisely said to me several months ago
---
and I'm finding out how true that is each day in my own life.

That reminds me of someone else who used to post here. But if I'm right I don't want to out you former nom de forum here. If you want to e-mail me and see if I'm right, go right ahead. If you'd rather not, and you did post here under another name, boy, your voice has sure changed to someone I remember from what I was hearing. But like I say, premies have a fit when they see us saying what we are usually too polite to say around premies, so I'm not surprised at some of the reactions.

Praise b something.

Love, Francesca

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:30:11 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Francesca maybe a BEST OF FORUM
Message:
You just said something to David that explains one of the big reasons that I have decided to limit my participation in the forum. More premies are coming here. In real life I am a live and let live kind of guy and would not dream of confronting premies or arguing with them. I have no right to attempt to convince someone else that I am right and they are wrong.

Unfortunately as you say, this forum is for expremies who really can no longer stomach hearing the praises of rawat sung- no matter how kind and courteous the premie is. We react to singing his praises in much the same way premies react to us criticising him. It rubs us the wrong way.

The expremie forum is not a level playing field anymore than Lifes Great is. The game on either side is rigged. I no longer post on LG for that reason. Why would I want to go into someone's house and criticise their furniture? Why would a premie want to come here?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:56 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: To David Anderson
Message:
Hi David,

thanks so much for your reply -unfortunately I have to rush off so I can't reply at length. Sure it'd be good to meet and chat someday. You sound like a nice guy -my pal Tim Hain spoke highly of you too!
I will reappear here in about a fortnight I guess -maybe then we can also chat offline. If you want to email me you can do so at patrick@patrickwilson.com (my website is www.patrickwilson.com and you can check it out if you like!).

I hear your sincerity and friendliness and it warms me. Your daughter's comment I feel is a little naive if I may say so -I'm sure she has a sweet understanding of what she says though. I also have a lovely daughter and I know she says some great things too (although she's only 5).

I think that the issue here is more of holding Maharaji partly responsible for things that have happened to one as a premie. It's very 'new-agey' to say that blame is evil but it is a word that has a valid and useful meaning. People simply can indeed be 'imputed with faults' and Maharaji is surely no exception. In itself there is no harm implicit in blaming someone or even oneself. I agree that we should all like you say 'feel like taking responsibility, ownership, of each and every choice I've ever made in my adult life' . and again I say that I wonder whether Maharaji is doing this over some issues - I also feel that I accept my past choices- for example the choice to obey his 'Agya'. There were some additional factors though that were influential.

There are occasions, I might point out, when it is actually sick NOT to blame someone when blame is due. The knack I guess is to point out peoples faults in such a way that is helpful and kind - so that they can learn and not react defensively.

As a matter of fact, Maharaji has blamed premies on many occasions for ballsing hings up. Don't forget that.

You add : 'I projected a shiteload of fear onto him.'and then 'Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No
---
I sincerely can't think of anything.
'

Well, I can think of some things and I am rather astonished that you can't - to be honest. Much of what he said would be construed by anyone with intelligence to have a somewhat intimidating tinge. Why blame yourself wholly and be reluctant to let Maharaji take some of the blame -`I mean it sounds like YOU are blaming yourself here soley for projecting fear- don't be so hard on yourself! Blame him just a little - he can take it! Give yourself a break! You were not a stupid creature who since birth projects fear left, right and center without some reason. Even Maharaji confessed that his father was an intimidating character. Believe me, he said some scary heavy duty stuff. Theres no harm in understanding that .

Also, you say you love Maharaji - well, I don't know about you but I tell those I love exactly how I feel if I think they are wrong or to blame for something stupid. I sometimes get the impression that premies think that loving Maharaji has a different dynamic all on it's own. The Master is deemed to be totally beyond criticism by virtue of how much 'Lerve' there is flowing between you. I think that is most unhealthy. That sounds less like real respect and more like obsequiousness.

Thanks for the reply Dave

yours

The Whinging Tosser!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:16:23 (EDT)
From: David AndersEn with an E
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: To David Anderson
Message:
No problem.....re the reply; and back at ya re the sincerity.

Some quick points:


---
-My daughter is a powerful, beautiful adult who has faced many incredible challenges and crises in her life. This is not Pollyana bullshit; this is a wise, courageous woman speaking her own hard-won truth. The word 'evil' may be confronting, or even misleading to you, but it resonates with me; I've experienced blame as a powerful destructive force
---
destroying families, parent-child relationships, business relationships, all kinds of student-teacher and mentor situations
---
and most of all, destroying one's own joi de vivre.


---
-Do you tell your mother exactly how you feel about everything?
Do you tell your significant other every time they piss you off, or you think the'yre wrong? I don't. I accept the fact that I have unique and different relationships with every person I love; there's no template that fits all; that said, one has to express himself honestly, with context and respect. I've noticed that Maharaji applauds people being secure enough to be honest with him, and seems to reward honesty with respect. If I'm serving a client of mine in my piano business, and they're trusting me to advise them on a $30-40-50-60K decision, paying $20K and up for a thrashed Steinway, and then paying me another 20 to 30 to completely restore it, I have a professional and ethical responsibility to tell that client ALL the news, good AND bad, about that piano before he pulls the trigger. If I lie to him, my reputation among the real players goes to shit, and I'm a weasel, or at least have ethical weaknesses. Why should serving Maharaji be any different? It shouldn't, and it isn't, for me.
Ask Tim if he would ever describe me as obsequious. I've been subtly blasted by church ladies for the opposite, but not in a while, I'm thrilled to say.
Let's say Maharaji's doctor was a PWK. You think Mr. Rawat would
want that guy to be anything but absolutely, bluntly truthful with him? Would it be serving him, or anyone else, to do differently?

Bottom line is this. I love the guy. He is, in my perception, a good, sweet, intelligent, incredibly perceptive man who treats people with incredible kindness. This is what I've seen, and this is what I know.
I've seen him in all kinds of situations,and always he's treated people with basic civility and respect. He's a human being. He's not perfect in the world of relationships, IMO. Am I, or any human I know? No.
To me it's simple common sense,based on my own data, my own experience. To you, it may seem like I'm nuts,or totally at odds with what you've been led to believe
---
-but I personally feel at least as credible as Mike Dettmers... :--)

Posting on this thing sucks time out of your life like a young and eager courtesan.....bye bye. Take good care....have fun....lighten up; lie under a fine piano while a great player does their thing; it does wonders for ALL the organs.....DA

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:26:01 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: David AndersEn with an E
Subject: Re: To David Anderson
Message:
Posting on this thing sucks time out of your life like a young and eager courtesan

So now we have eager courtesans (prostitutes.) Charming. I'll bet most young women, some of them mere children, are really eager to be forced into degradation and disease. God, you premies are really shining, such mirrors of the master.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:22:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: David AndersEn with an E
Subject: Credibility and pianos
Message:
Have to disagree that you can assert you are as credible as Michael Dettmers. You have had nowhere near the exposure to M as Dettmers did, although your more distant relations with M may be more current.

Your denial of seeing any fault with M will lead to no meaningful dialogue on the topic, at least with us, and shoots down your credibility in the face of all the known facts. I do appreciate your heartfelt honesty however, and your comment about pianos.

There is just nothing like an acoustic piano. The vibrations go up into space and down into the earth.

love, Francesca

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:23:54 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Credibility and pianos
Message:
I agree with the following comment:

Have to disagree that you can assert you are as credible as Michael Dettmers. You have had nowhere near the exposure to M as Dettmers did, although your more distant relations with M may be more current.

I like David and his honesty but this is also the big difference between Dettmers, Donner & other PAMs.

The MD's are talking about an inner circle. Also, DA cannot witness something that has already happened. I don't know why he contests that point. I think his characterization of M's human side is very credible. It made me feel good to hear he has that redeeming side.

But M has different relationships with different people. After all, he's human. One thing has nothing to do with the other. M's buddy side has nothing to do with his pretend Master side, nor does it have anything to do with his bastard to other premies side, past, present, or future.

Prempal is lying about the exes, how admirable is that?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:05:21 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Brilliant, Patrick [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:02:22 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: ''Blame is evil' ??
Message:
Interesting.

We all really know that Maharaji once claimed to be 'Divine','the living avatar', 'God in human form '. In a court of law or even in a court of dispassionate, reasonable minded investigation he wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he denied it. He does deny it to premies and the rest of us. Why? There are countless written and taped satsangs veryifying this. Not just him alluding to it or vaguely suggesting it but actually stating it as fact. Now that isn't honest is it?

I've noticed premies online (and every time I speak about the subject offline to premies, it's always their first (and sometimes ONLY)response.'Come of it he's just a human being ' I couldn't agree more. He's only human. Unfortunately he doesn't really agree !

One thing that REALLY REALLY PUZZLES ME is this:- Premies are ALWAYS willing to lavish praise on Maharaji but resent ANY (I mean ANY, not just some) criticism of him. For a premie (I dare you to deny this) a mother , father, relative, friend, politician, circumstance, 'culture & society',media, upbringing, ....and on and on and on.....ANYONE or ANYTHING is fair game for criticism or blame. But not him? Doesn't that strike you as being very very very odd? Very strange?

He himself glories in praise. He lives on it. He needs it. Thrives on it.Let's face it he pretty much demands it ! But blame? no way jose!

This is pretty weird for 'only a human being ' don't you think? I mean you'd think he and his premies think he's PERFECT or something?

Now me, Dermot Mullan...I'm just a human being. I have countless faults, nmade countless mistakes,I'm really imperfect to the Nth degree, I've even repeated the same mistakes over and over again. My imperfection is boundless:) .....I can say one or two tiny things in my favour.If and whenever I really hurt someone I deeply regretted it and tried to make amends. I've never ever messed with peoples minds and hearts on a grand, global scale. I've never claimed to be the PERFECT master (perhaps because I wasn't born into an Indian family 'religion cum business' ). Prem pal singh Rawat has made this claim . The fact that he has devoted, loving followers is (in terms of honesty and truth) wholly irrelevant. Inevitably he'll attract a following given his start in life !! That ultimately means nothing even though it may be pleasant for you to experience the love and friendship you have with him. Either his basic claim to authenticity is true or it's false. I think all the evidence when looked at impartially proves it.

As I said below ' JUST WALK ' is not a sincere response. It's an insult. It's a deriliction of DUTY.

This was my last parting shot (truly, really, DEFINITELY :) ) However, the vast majority of the other exes here will basically tell the same story (from their own peculiar, individual perspective) and make the same FUNDAMENTAL ACCUSATION. In my opinion it has nothing to do with hate ( what a feeble response Maharajis yes men/women make when citing that !)He is a public figure. It isn't reasonable or correct for a public figure to lap up praise but resent critcism. He deserves to be blamed (not just for superficial or practical things) for his fundamental, dishonest errors. He deserves to be continually blamed because he just will not sincerely confront his critics ( prefers spin of official EV and the satellite 'independent' sites.

Blame is evil ????? Get real mate. He deserves the blame....and he's only human, right?

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:39:59 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dermot
Subject: Great posts, Patrick and Dermot, thanks (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:55:58 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: real and deep love before I knew him
Message:
Hi David,

maybe it is a languageproblem, but how can it be, that you loved Maharaji with with a real and deep love for 15 years before you knew him??

Sorry, what you say reminds me to this kind of praises I can find sunday mornings on TV, where succesful people are talking of their deep love to Lord Jesus ( for example:The hour of Power)

Why I get a strange taste, when I hear this gloryfing stuff. It's not love, no it has to be real and deep love and of course a proof always seems to be, how succesful someone is in the world. The love you got is reflected in wordly succes, specially in money???

ciao .....wolfie......just thinking.....

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: To Patrcik
Message:
Hi Patrick
I feel sorry for you. It is sad that you did not enjoy any of your stay in the ashram. Actually it was a system that M closed almost 20 years ago. I think that should tell something.
In your post I counted that at least you mentioned or described 'surrender' / or giving up career, family etc. (BTW where I stayed everyone kept their ties to their families intact). The number of times you mention this, makes you sound like a bitter person.
M. says he is a human being. The nature of human beings is to make mistakes. To love another human being requires that a person is able to look beyond the mistakes, and see what is good in another person.

Anyway, I can understand your feelings, even though I don't share your experiences.

Good luck to you and take care. Life is too short to spend time sulking.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:07:01 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Re: To Amsterbjorn
Message:
Were you ever in the private ashram meetings with Maha ? I think not.

So what the fuck do you know ?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:27:53 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: On 'Sulking'
Message:
You know Amsterdam, your condescending comments about 'sulking' might put you in the category of being very judgmental, and perhaps lacking much empathy for fellow human beings. I also think you might be pretty much ill-informed about your own cult. This is a common trait of premies. I'm not surprised, though, given the secrecy that exists and has always existed in the Maharaji cult.

To be precise, I believe Maharaji closed the ashrams 17 years ago, which, tells us, I'm not sure what. From what people like Michael Dettmers have told us, he closed them because he didn't think the premies who lived their appreciated them enough, and he was concerned about money, because the ashram premies were getting older and most didn't have medical isnurance, pensions and the like.

The WAY he closed them was pretty reprehensible. Maharaji had indoctrinated into us that the ashram was a life-long committment, that it was a supreme opportunity and one should never leave. I have him on tape saying this by the way, and I heard him say it numerous times.

The problem was, it wasn't a committment that Maharaji felt he had any obligation to uphold. When they were no longer the cash cow they had them, Maharaji just dumped the ashrams and even stuck the ashram premies with the debts.

In the meantime, people trashed their lives for a decade or more trying to serve the living Lord of the Universe, foregoing careers, relationships, or any ability to personally direct their own lives.

As for keeping ties with families intact, that was pretty hard to do, and one actually felt guilty for even trying to do that as Maharaji denigrated family relationships repeatedly, as he did any form of human relationship. I was never uncivil or even un-loving to my family, but I hurt them greatly for putting the Lord of the Universe ahead of them, for missing out on many, many family events where I would have been were it not for the ashram, etc. I was not even allowed to attend my grandfather's funeral, causing even more hurt to my family.

Many people believe 'getting beyond' injustices has to do with trying to right them, perhaps to uncover the reality of what happened, even damand those who prepetrated the autrocities, in this case Maharaji, are required to admit their errors, and take responsbility for them, something you want Patrick to do, but you make no such demands on Mr. Rawat. That's pretty hypcritical.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:53:18 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: On 'Sulking'
Message:
Hi Joe
In my post, I tried to express my empaty. If I failed, I failed.

I stayed in the ashrams for 3 years. I consider this periode in my life a 'lesson in life'. I came with nothing and even though I left poor, I did not leave empthyhanded. In hindsight I might have ended up like a junkie. I have become quite successful. To day, I am richer than my neighbours, and more wealthy than most of my friends.
I suppose I lived in another 'ashram' culture. I spent most holidays with my family.

Why M closed the ashrams is speculations. I think what he did was brave. Doing that he admitted a mistake. Not that ashram life might benefit those who sincerely wanted to live there, but I think people like Patrick never should have moved into the ashram. When M closed the ashrams I think he gave a signal that ashram life is not for everyone and that is perfectly OK to live a normal life. That is my opinion.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:09:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Your alias is anagram of 'Mad Master'! - Cool...
Message:
Hi Amsterdam,

You write: Why M closed the ashrams is speculations. I think what he did was brave. Doing that he admitted a mistake.

Bravery, my ass. It was because the ashrams were becoming a financial liability, not to mention the image problem of cults after Jonestown. Plenty of evidence to suggest as much if you scour the archives and read the main site in more detail.

And Maharaji has never publically admitted a mistake. He has, of course, changed direction on a number of occasions, and he has frequently admitted the mistakes of OTHERS...

I think you should read Dermot's post in Patrick Wilson's thread. he raises a very interesting question about criticism and blame.

But I am so glad you have been more successful than your neighbours. I always noticed the people reporting the best K experiences were often coincidentally blessed with a bit more in the way of material comforts. Such is the Grace, I guess...

BTW: are you going to stick with one alias from now on, Bjorn? If you hadn't noticed, there are posters here genuinely freaked by your creepy posts of the past - and I think it is fair they should know who they are talking to, so they can make a point of not talking to you...

I assume you ARE Bjorn (anyone else would have denied the suggestion by now).

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:18:27 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Oh come on, be fair
Message:
A couple of comments:

I stayed in the ashrams for 3 years. I consider this periode in my life a 'lesson in life'. I came with nothing and even though I left poor, I did not leave empthyhanded.

Well I sure did. What did you take with you, exactly? A severence package?

In hindsight I might have ended up like a junkie. I have become quite successful. To day, I am richer than my neighbours, and more wealthy than most of my friends.

You could say the same thing about prison. You might have been hit by a bus, too, what exactly is your point, because it doesn't make any sense?

There were lots of people, like Patrick and like me, who gave up their lives to be ashram premies because they believed what Maharaji said and who he was. I feel I wasted my 20s doing that, only to see Maharaji dump the ashrams without explanations. It's not that I wanted the ashrams to continue, I wanted Maharaji to act like a responsible adult and admit his errors and apologize, perhaps even offer support and help for the ashram residents and initiators that needed it. Instead he did nothing because he didn't care, and apparently still doesn't. To my value system, and my understanding of right and wrong, there's a pretty clear violation by Maharaji of regular human decency that pretty much disqualifies him in my book as somebody I would take seriously as a 'master,' someone I would 'love' or respect in pretty much any sense. The bottom line is that Maharaji caused me and others a lot of damage. Sure I'm complicit in that because I was stupid enough to believe what he said, but at least I am human enough to admit it. Maharaji apparently isn't.

I have never heard Maharaji admit that the ashrams were HIS mistake. My understanding is that he blamed the premies, according to Michael Dettmers and others who were once 'x-rated' but no longer feel obliged to follow that pledge.

I suppose I lived in another 'ashram' culture. I spent most holidays with my family.

I guess so. I think that was pretty rare.

I think people like Patrick never should have moved into the ashram. When M closed the ashrams I think he gave a signal that ashram life is not for everyone and that is perfectly OK to live a normal life. That is my opinion.

Yeah, I get that. Telling Patrick he never should have moved into the ashram is a bit obvious don't you think? Of course he never should have. None of us should have. But I think Patrick was pretty clear why he did. It was what Maharaji said, repeatedly, about surrenduring your life. Again, we had the misfortune of believing what Maharaji said, before the point at which he decided not to say it anymore, and pretend like he never did say it.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:28:40 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It sure was a different ashram culture
Message:
I was thrown out of the ashram because I stayed at my mother's(whi I had not seen for 3 years) for one night when she was ill.
I was lierally thrown out onto the street with NOthing.

10 years of writing to m yielded no response.

It was on maharaji's direction.
If you don't believe me ask Dick Cooper who I think is probably in Oz probably hanging out with his side-kick Beth Burrel.

Jethro(formely Eddie Fisher)

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:23:14 (EDT)
From: daisy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: It sure was a different ashram culture
Message:
My understanding, in my ashram in the US, was that being in the ashram included cutting all ties to the 'outside world.' This included family. For much of my time in the ashram I lived within 45 minutes of my parents and siblings. I rarely saw them, and certainly never on holidays. My father phoned me at the ashram once, and was given the third-degree by whomever answered before he could talk to me--I don't remember what questions he was asked before I spoke with him. For better or for worse, cutting ties with one's family was part of what it took to become a surrendered, 'free' person capable of soaring to the heights of selfless service. 'He who is without preference can have devotion.' I believe that was a quote of Shri Maharaji.

I think we knew that ahead of time, before moving in. Perhaps it was in the ashram manual that we (at least I) was asked to read on the day I moved in.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:52:55 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: daisy
Subject: Re: It sure was a different ashram culture
Message:
I left the ashram (the second time) because I wasn't allowed to visit my brother (a premie) who had developed mental illness and was in hospital.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:29:34 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Ashram Abuse
Message:
Wow, that's heavy. At least you had the good sense to leave.

I was not allowed to go to my grandfather's funeral because the ashram didn't have funds for a plane ticket, and because it was just 'mind' and I had to understand who my 'real family' was.

In 1979, in Miami, Maharaji came and gave satsang at DECA, the premie/ashram slave labor camp that was refurbishing a Boeing 707 for Maharaji, as well as other particular luxuries he (and also Raja Ji and Claudia) wanted. He told us how 'pleased' he was that we were there, and that we understood who our 'real family' was. He also said that 'the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for Christmas.'

Perhaps Amsterdam ignored these ignorant and abusive comments by Maharaji, and perhaps he or she had a liberal ashram housefather, but I think that was probably exceptional. Most people in the ashram wanted to do what Maharaji said, and he said, repeatedly that your biological family was just as irrelevent and distracting as relationships.

And, at the risk of being repetitive, Maharaji has never come clean on any of that, publicly, as he should, and like Gregg said, since he is a dishonest liar, he is off the radar screen of most people with any kind of values insofar as a spiritual teacher is concerned.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:08:35 (EDT)
From: deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Remember the Deprogramming
Message:
I received Knowledge in 1980, when M was in transission from his Mala-cross dressing phase to the gucchishoes/Armani-suit yuppie look.

Days after I rec'd K, I witnessed one of last (if not THE last) Krishna gigs in Kansas City Missouri (the show-me satsang theme).
Premies were telling me how M was changing his look so he could propagate and how I was the new type. They told some campbell soup version of Mischler and warned we not take any gossip seriously. They also told me about deprogramming. Then I met people who were refugees from the evil clutches of their parent's attempt to have them deprogrammed. I bought it!

M had a group who was in control of preventing deprogramming at the time. I met MiraBei who was one of these people. She came from a very good and literate family who knew better. Well their efforts failed and one day she committed suicide asking M took re-incarnate her in the next life. I'll never forget reading about that story in one of the posts when I first started to read the forum.

Before I rec'd K, I worked for premies on Lincoln road in Miami Beach. I met tons of premies because the airline ticket business was just down the street. Think I remember names like Adler, Malone, ... I worked for a premie, company was called 'Elan Air'. I would tease the premies about the guru all the time but they just smiled so knowingly.

So I came to M through the influence of many old-timers. My boss John Orzano lived in an ashram, the BroadMoor Hotel and he would tell me all kind of stories all the time. I've been thinking a lot about the deprogramming that M's squash-team conducted and feeling pissed off how arrogant the 'just walk philosophy'. Why would premies need to deprogrammed? Why would there even be such a concept if it was never a cult?

It's so sad the pain Maha BigHead put people's family through. It ruined non-gullible people's life as well.

How many families and friends do you think suffered for M's arrogant Lord of the Universe adolescent prank?

Any one else remember deprogramming stories?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:14:11 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Ashram Abuse
Message:
Each of us had a different experience, both of Knowledge and of living in the ashrams, since each of us came with our own particular background, psychological makeup, strengths, and weaknesses. I don't think we have to decide 'Ashrams were good' or 'Ashrams were bad.' Amsterdam had a great experience and he seems to have listened well and stuck to what was best for him. There are others who likewise seemed to keep their head above water. Others of us, or I guess I will speak for myself, swallowed the whole belief system, did not give any credence to my own inner stirrings, thinking they were just murmurings of my dying ego, which I would be much better off without.

Regardless of whose 'fault' this was, I now want to deal with the aftermath. I am grieving for the person I once was: bold and unafraid, natural, scrupulously honest, outspoken, clear, a leader, self-confident, capable, admired by many, trusting myself. I have become afraid to say what I think; I have almost zero self-confidence and self-esteem; I kind of hide in the corners. I have lost my profession (didn't keep up with licensing requirements while in the ashram) and have the option for only low-end, uninteresting jobs. Once again, I cannot blame anyone--I know others in the ashram did not necessarily become like this. And I wonder why it never occurred to me to leave. Well, I think I know: I thought this was the one true way and giving up everything was worth it to be a follower of the Lord who was now on our planet.

What I really wish is that I could have stayed the person I was AND have received Knowledge. What a beautiful life that would have been. Of course, perhaps it wouldn't have been--we'll never know.

Anyway, rather than grieve for losing the personality I loved, I'd like to find it again, and that's what I'm trying and hoping to do.

Incidentally, I wonder if people who did not live in the ashram (and for more than three years) can understand some of the issues some of us face. I notice that on Pia's site three of the people who describe having a wonderful time in their lives were married and with children throughtout. This must have been a different experience, one in which one had to remain somewhat normal.

I think many people are sick of hearing about the ashram. I wish the ashram people could talk amongst ourselves to sort some of this out, without having to do it in front of everyone, and have them judge us as whiners.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:49:11 (EDT)
From: Francesca :(
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Daisy
Subject: And isn't it a shame you'd get judged as a whiner
Message:
... for talking about the negative experience of living in the ashram on an ex-premie bulletin board. That's what it's come to, because this isn't totally an expremie board. Premies are allowed to post here, and you've pointed out the achilles heel in the openness of this forum.

I've heard from exes that don't feel comfortable posting here. Not necessarily about the ashram per se, but the whole experience.

They post some deep traumatic experience for them and get called whiner drug addict mental cases by premies. Then they feel beat up. It sucks, but I don't know what to say.

bests, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:24:16 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Re: P.S. I had fun, too.
Message:
P. S.
I meant to say that just because I'm feeling some pain now doesn't mean that I didn't have some fun in the ashram, too. I did. I loved everyone being together (sometimes!), some of the people I had the pleasure of spending time with, I REALLY loved the singing and harmonizing, doing service sometimes, speaking in satsang...
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:54:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Re: P.S. I had fun, too.
Message:
Hey Daisy,

I had fun myself as a premie. Always. Up until I started posting here I considered the ten years of continuous involvement to be the best years of my life.

Realizing the truth of M & K has changed my perspective and the grief about what happened has replaced my erroneous perception.

But our good times with other cult-gullibles is real. It's the healthiest attitude to take. It wasn't the fault of other premies that we bought into the bigger purpose. It's M's fault.

And we deserve to keep what ever cherishable memories we have. I mean, how we can invalidate our whole existence. That's too cruel a thing to do to ourselves. Just my opinion.

I got hit by a banned-but-then-unbanned ex (who is now my friend) about 'what cherishable experiences'. I didn't answer the post.

But I still enjoyed cocktails with him and his girlfriend.

People have their quirks, eh?

Take care,

Deborah, who has a few rocking-chair-worthy stories herself to tell some day.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:17:29 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: daisy
Subject: Re: It sure was a different ashram culture
Message:
There were several years when I was not in contact with my family and my mother called the Salvation Army to come and find me. I found this out several years later that they had contacted the ashram amd were told that they didn't know me.

Really weird stuff!!!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:30:20 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Above post meant for Amsterdam NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:16:37 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: about ahsrams
Message:
Actually I was the 'ashram secretary' in the country I lived. I am probably more pragamtic, and allowed the residents to go home for holidays. The ecconomy was good so why shouldn't I? I allways thought common sense was more important than strict rules.
I also happened to live in Denver, there it also was kind of loose.I remember someone talked about a secret survey in Denver that indicated that about 60 % of the ahsram residents had broken most of the ashram rules. I remember me and another guy, had half a pint of beer, and not having tasted alchohol in years we were almost drunk.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:11 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: To NEW READERS
Message:
To see more detail of the closure of the ashrams, look at the archives and JM's site, where much more detail is given.

It seems that man non-ashramees have no idea what went on.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:13:52 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I try my best to be fair
Message:
Hi Joe
I guess some persons in life are like a strainer, they keep the good stuff and leave the rest. Some do the oposite.

Re Ashrams. I left with gratitude for life, I learned to have discipline in my life and perseverance. I also learned to understand the simplicity and important issues in life. When I succeeded in 'this world', those factors were of importance.

Re surrendering: I hope I dont sound like I consider myself 'superiour', but due to 'luck' I happened to experience /understand what surrender is: It has nothing to do with living in an ashram. Surrender IMO/experience is something that might happen when you really understand something of real importance that makes you win the 'inner war'. To say that this feeling, is feeling good, is probably the understatement of the century.

And Joe, unlike you or Patrick, I never gave up my life to live in a ashram. I listened to M and he told if you really want to, you can move into the ashram. I wanted to, so I moved in. M told me to be an oportunist in life, so when I did not feel that ashram life did benefit me, I moved out.

Anything you or I say, can be twisted. So when IMO Patrick should not have moved into the ashram, (I really dont know if that was the case) that is based of his own story. Or at least I think he should have moved out earlier.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:35:42 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Re: I try my best to be fair
Message:
What was the differenece between ashram-life and non-ashram life for you?

I am genuinly curious as to what changed in your life by moving out of the ashram and why you felt you had to move in.

Jethro

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:16:15 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Ashram
Message:
It is really none of your business, but I'll try to answer.
I enjoyed Life in the ashram, and I enjoyed Life when I left. (I had a few ups and downs though).
Living in the ashram I tried to follow the rules, which I sometimes failed to follow. Those times I felt guilty, and even wrote to M about it.
I left because I fell in love.
I moved in because of 2 reasons. At one point M Gitanand pointed at me and said: You should move into the ashram. I thought abour that for a long time. I lived in a premie house that became the ashram. I kind of followed the flow. But I never regretted my stay there. In spite of a couple of difficult periodes, I really had a lot fo fun. I think I never laughed as much in my life. But reading from other persons experiences, I think the culture of 'my' ahsram was a total differnt culture. We had a lot of self-irony and even though we tried our best, we broke some rules.(It was only 7 - 10 people living there)
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:59:16 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Re: Ashram
Message:
In the Uk (I assume you are not in the Uk), ahsramees obviously took everything more seriously. It was to do with fully committinmg one's life to the Living Lord (right Glen et al!!). The rules wre given by Him. It was something absolute.
He told us to explicitely obey his instructors, honchos etc even if we didn't agree with what they were saying. He to relate to their instructions as His.

You see Amsterdam ( or you Bjorn????....) Maharaji IS vicareously responsible for all that happened. In particular to the ashramees that did it for real. I don't mean those that had secret bank accounts(remember SB telling me that in Oz).

Anyway having said all that, I would like your take on Maharaji's silence on Jagdeo and his rewrite of history.

Jethro

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:59:50 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Ashram etc.
Message:
Re Ashrams I lived in different countries actually and the cultures were slightly different, but not like you describe in Uk.
You wrote:
'Anyway having said all that, I would like your take on Maharaji's silence on Jagdeo and his rewrite of history.'
Why do you say that. Do you really want to hear the truth or what? I probably cant help you, but I ve got a feeling that reality is not very welcome here. However i might have posted what I know, that is if I wanted.
BTW I have written a document to be presented for a hearing for the parliament for a sugested law that will increase the rights for victims of violence, rape, and paedophile. Believe it or not, one organisation of victims assigned me to write this which will be published in the autumn. I assume that the lobbying I did in connection to some human rights, made them ask me to do this thing.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:04:46 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Amsterdam too much circumlocution!!! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:08:58 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Amsterdam too much circumlocution!!! NT
Message:
Jetro
You asked me a question, I replied and asked you a question. You did not reply. Is the truth or another perspective too hard to swallow?
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:39:40 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Ok Ok i read itagain and
Message:
I see that you have NOT answered my question which was
' I would like your take on Maharaji's silence on Jagdeo and
his rewrite of history.'

You have not addressed M's silence on Jagdeo and his revisionist history.

Where you concerened hearing the accusations against jagedo?

If so did you(like Ron Geaves did) make your own enquiries? or maybe it doesn't matter to you because the only important thing is keeping m's name clear?

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:43:20 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: AND AMSTERDAM
Message:
are you Bjorne?
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:50:38 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: AND AMSTERDAM
Message:
Jetro,
I intended to drop the whole case as I consider it a waste of time. I had planned to do what I did above, I.e. to redress myself, but earlier this week I had a bad but very realistic dream that G. came to my house and tried to kill my family- not me. (Would be interesting to see if he looks like the person I dreamt him to be)
As a private person, and a victim myself, I was concerned and tried to find out what happened. I dont know the truth, and it is limited what I can find out. But what I found it is likely that J. is a paedophile, but did not cross the line of having sex with his victims. According to what I have discovered M. was never told about j. I found out things I have not told here, and I will not tell unless things get really ugly, but definitely there are some exes not telling the truth.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:58:09 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Oh come on, be fair
Message:
Hi, I think that was a sensible reply to a senseless comment. I never lived in the ashram, although my group living had its similarities. But I certainly understand the dilemma. I received K in 1980 and aspired for the ashram but they closed shortly afterwards.

Although I met a 80's version of M, I watched all the old videos and can attest to the fact that M did say the things he said. THe videos didn't lie. At the time, I thought it was funny that M said cruel things. Sorry for my lack of discretion on that part, he was prick for messing up premies than pointing at them and laughing and making them look confused. Of course, they were confused. THey devoted themselves to the confuser. Nasty guy.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:42 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: V Gd post! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:43:42 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Thank you, Patrick
Message:
A kind, thoughtful and serious post that says it all for me. I'm so glad that you did not stay away for another six months as you promised.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:42:16 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
Patrick,

Holy smokes, man! I know Forum 6 is only 1 day old but I nominate your post as a keeper. It is heartfelt and filled with excruciating honesty. Thank you for taking the time to write that.

I should point out to other readers that there are some interesting posts by David Andersen and responses below in a thread titled PatC: Forum Six and anonymous premie trolls. You have to click 'View All' to see that thread.

Richard
(BTW: You referred to 'Richard's 14 Objections' but I merely posted a link to The 14 Objections as a way to stimulate discussion. They were thoughtfully written by a team, not me.)

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 13:22:08 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
hi richard..i did go the the 'view all' and read some of david's posts. one caught my eye for example and seems typical of some of the attitudes of those still apologizing for m's behaviour.

david asks, in regards to millium and the 'blue flame chair' on the stage at the astro dome in houston in nov. 73 'what were they thinking, i'll bet m shit when he saw it' is he kidding or what? there is no 'they' who created this chair without m knowing about it. m was then and is now in contrrol of how he was/is presented to the public. especailly programs...he controls down to fine details of the songs song and when, etc. it was always him that deliberately stirred up devotion, authority on a throne, that whole nine yards. to say differently is just not true. i was there to see all from 72 to 84 and even beyond...m was always calling the shot..and when necessary always willing to blame someone else when it didn 't turn out as he wanted it to. the message, both verbally and visually was his message. he was in control...he was dilberately manipulating our emotional attachment to him...for obvious reasons...to tie us to him in service and devotional love...in dedication of our selves, our resources of time and money to dedicate to him. that is the path he offers.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:27 (EDT)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: Who writes the songs
Message:
m was then and is now in contrrol of how he was/is presented to the public. especailly programs...he controls down to fine details of the songs song and when, etc.

Sorry Mr Donner...it may have been true then (and I really can't say - having not been involved in that area), but I can most definitely emphatically and absolutely say this is NOT true now, nor has it been for quite some time. This is not a matter of opinion or perspective. Its just wrong.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:05:48 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Re: Who writes the songs
Message:
How could you say something Donner witnessed in the past is 'wrong' because you don't see him doing that today. If he did it then, then Donner is 'right'.

Did you or do you live in one of the staff support houses? Donner's 'personal' one on one experiences with M over many years is hardly comparable to the average premie who only witnesses him at a program or has brushed his side during service.

I spoke personally with M on occasions with no one else around on some or maybe just a handful at others. M knows how to come across in his public mode. That's what's being talked about here.

Please qualify your personal one on one relationship with M so we can understand or respect your opinion.

David Anderson explained the extent of his personal acquaintance and so his opinion of M is substantiated. Now, perhaps you have explained how you know M so well in previous posts, I haven't been here for 2 months yet.

Are you a current PAM?

M is obviously still blaming others

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:02:25 (EDT)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Who writes the songs
Message:
I dont say what Donner witnessed in the past was wrong. I thought I was pretty clear. I wasn't there then. But, I can say that it is not correct now, nor has it been for many years.

And no, I am not a PAM...and now I'm remembering why this is a sucky post for premies to post. So much hostility.

Bye

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:39:23 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Re: Who writes the songs
Message:
Donner said:

m was then and is now in contrrol of how he was/is presented to the public. especailly programs...he controls down to fine details of the songs song and when, etc.

Your reply to him was:

Sorry Mr Donner...it may have been true then (and I really can't say - having not been involved in that area), but I can most definitely emphatically and absolutely say this is NOT true now, nor has it been for quite some time. This is not a matter of opinion or perspective. Its just wrong.

My response t you:

Isabella, you're absolutely right about your clarification regarding the past.

However, you are not omnipresent, how could you possibly state that this is definitely emphatically and absolutely say this is NOT true now, nor has it been for quite some time.

You have not qualified that opinion. If you are not a PAM, to what extent is your personal one on one service to M? In what capacity do you serve him? How often does do you meet with him? Do you visit his home and socialize like David Anderson? Do you part of his staff? Tell us about yourself.

You said it is not a matter of opinion or perspective but you did not substantiate it. Please substantiate your comment. That's all.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:12:12 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: How do you know?
Message:
You say that M's orchestrating the programs is not true, is just wrong, but from whom do you get your information? It just seems that you should have more than just your assertion that it is wrong to back it up, especially when Donner was there. I don't want to sound adversarial, but why should I believe you? Give me a rope, here.

He obviously didn't pick every song for those all day satsang-a-thons, but he certainly orchestrated what went on around 'the main event.' The few times I had any involvement in doing music for those portions of the programs, feedback was definitely given from Maharaji about what he did and didn't want.

And frankly, it gets a little silly to blame everything on other people, instead of M himself. If he is so realized, why would he let a bunch of yo-yos lead him around by the nose?

--f

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:56:52 (EDT)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: How do you know? [nt]
Message:
You know what? I'm sorry I even brought it up.

This is such an interesting group. You can somehow completely accept something from someone named 'Malibu Mole' - saying that there was an event planned for Worcester, MA ('and what exactly does Malibu have to do with Worcester?', she wondered)...and that it was cancelled after the Paris affair, with no corroborating evidence whatsoever. This tidbit seems to have just been eaten up like a fresh nectarine. Why? Because it reinforces your fantasies.

But, I come along, also 'anonymice' and let you know in a nice way (or as nice as I can be in this environment) that whatever there was 16 years ago, it is not the case now - and the response is 'why should we believe you?' Because it doesn't reinforce your fantasy.

Okay - so don't believe me. It doesnt really matter, does it? We're back to that old 'hate' agenda again. And whatever fits into that will be accepted by some of you, and whatever does not fit into that will be rejected.

Too bad really.

Is

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:33:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Re: You never answered the 'how do you know?'
Message:
Nobody is being hateful in this thread, you were only asked, 'how do you know?

Responding with the statement: Okay - so don't believe me. It doesnt really matter, does it? We're back to that old 'hate' agenda again. is a disproportional reaction to the question.

Why don't you tell us how you could know that M is not like this and hasn't been this way for years. Do you have a reasonable answer to that question? What levels of security and service do you participate in.

You said that it was NOT an opinion or perception but unless you calmly state how you know you are only frustrating yourself. You are admittting that it IS only your opinion or perception.

David Anderson said he is also a friend of M. He visits with him and his family. He can attest to some of M's virtues. He can't, however, attest to the inner sanctum of M's world because he doesn't LIVE with him NOR does he conduct M's personal affairs. He is a friend. So, now we know M can be nice to friends. That's a point for M. No one is arguing that point.

But you are screaming when asked nicely what do YOU do for and with M on a personal basis to qualify your statement. Even David Anderson admitted to not knowing some answers. He's honest. I respect that.

If you don't have a relationship with M other than a practicing, program-attending premie, than you don't know, nor could you.

They don't call it X-rated for nothing, Isabella.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:40:35 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: PMFJI
Message:
The reason why most premies can't answer your question is because their relationship with m is purely in their heads.

M is actually a sleazeball(as Elwood Blues would say) and coward of the highest order and not a The Celestial Being of the Highest Order, as he would have us believe of him.

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:22:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: PMFJI
Message:
THe funny thing is David A answered many of my questions with the preamble, I don'know or In my opinion.

I respected that. It's OK to have opinions and perceptions, but they are only personally validating.

You can't argue that you KNOW something you couldn't possibly KNOW.

Being swept along like cattle at a slaughter house through the DARSHAN line does not qualify as personal contact, either.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:14:23 (EDT)
From: Nurse Tessa
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Doctor!
Message:
medication please!
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:26:34 (EDT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Nurse Tessa
Subject: Re: Fraud!
Message:
Your browser type is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC)

If you stuck to one alias you might have some credibility.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:30:14 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Re: Who writes the songs
Message:
Just being nosey - who does manage program presentation style nowadays? Because it all seems remarkably synchronised?

John

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:37:57 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: One of David's responses to me
Message:
Hi Mike,

I asked David a slew of questions and one was in regards to X-rating. He responded honestly that he didn't know and had been in M's company for many years and never was approached in that manner.

I told him, in response, that visiting M and his family was not the same as Living with him or coordinating his personal affairs. It's obvious to me that M wouldn't do that on a casual basis but this is not my department.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the X-rating?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:17:19 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: One of David's responses to me
Message:
i have and others have elaborated on x-rating often before...certainly not for everyone...only few that were around all the time. he wuld not smoke or drink very often in front of the instructors for example..except a few...but to be assigned to residence with inside access...you had to be x-rated. i doubt even anth was x-rated, nor david's sister or most of the construction guys working on his residences..not even all the security guys, unless they were inside the houses. people like gary adler, steve braband, alvaro, valario, the cooks etc. folks like me were usually x-rated sometimes as a way of 'holding us closer'...coopting us. it worked.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:12:40 (EDT)
From: David A
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: One of David's responses to me
Message:
Hey Mike
---
I've been with M in many situations, public & private, and nothing like you describe has ever been proposed or suggested to me.
Ever.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:27:36 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Another question for David Andersen
Message:
David Andersen,

I saw your response to one of my posts on Life's Great. Thank you for that response and also thank you for posting on the Ex-premie website using your real name and explaining your position with Maharaji and Knowledge so well.

I am pleased that there is now more of an open opportunity to discuss these matters with each other. I hope someday that Mr. Rawat will also speak more openly about our concerns. I cannot imagine myself ever becoming a follower of his again, and it is difficult for me to imagine Mr. Rawat ever changing his image or his basic message. But who knows what might happen.

I think a very basic question that we all must come to terms with is whether we should follow Maharaji or not. That is the question that we all ask ourselves. Of course, many people hear about Maharaji and don't bother getting into the scene at all. But that option is too late for any of us. Most of all have put much of our life into Knowledge and what it might mean for us.

I recently corresponded with Basant Lal, a spokesperson for Satpal. I asked him why there is no mention of Prempal on Satpal's website. He wrote back: '...Regarding Prempal Singh Rawat we don't want to say anything because Shri Mata Ji, the patron of the Society has denounced him long back. We don't believe in mudslinging. It is for his then activities that we cut our relations with him and removed him from organisation. It is left to everyone to assess him and decide for himself whether to follow or not to follow.'

I only off this quote here to highlight the most basic question - whether to follow or not to follow Prempal.

I am very interested in your perspective, David Andersen. One reason for my interest is you have a relationship with Maharaji, and you have a relationship with Mr. Rawat. I am wondering if you see a dychtomy of any sort between these two beings.

I remember going to the Long Beach 1997 program and Maharaji telling a story about one of his kids. He said that the parent in him thought one thing and the Master in him thought another. I do not remember the exact quote or the surrounding circumstances. But I was very much struck with a new thought about Maharaji, and the thought was that Rawat plays the role of a Master in perhaps the same way that some person plays the role of a teacher or professor at work, but when at home, he doesn't play the same role anymore. To be honest, this was troublesome to me, because I felt if someone were the Master of the Knowledge of the Self, it would be more than a part-time role and there would be no interior conflict within such a Master. Perhaps I was reuminating too idealistically. (But I am not yet making the point I want to make. This is only preliminary setup so far).

When Rawat is on the stage speaking as the Master, he often says things like this: 'The Master is taking you to the other side, to the place where the finite meets the infinite. To make this journey, you need the balancing rod of this Knowledge, and then you need the Master. Some people say you don't need a Master, but those people aren't going anywhere. It's just fantasy and imagination for them. Without Knowledge you are a victim of your own unconsciousness. Without the Master, you cannot go to your destination.' I have paraphrased this quote from a talk Maharaji gave in Kuala Lumpur, 17 Oct. 2000.

My question to you, David, and to others like you, is: Do you relate at all differently to Maharaji than you do to Mr. Rawat? And, knowing that none of us can really answer the question 'Who is Maharaji?', do you in fact follow him as the Master who is taking you to Infinity? Do you still feel that you need to go somewhere, or acquire some state of consciousness?

You see, I ask this question because I think it is the essential difference between you and me, between premies and exes. I used to want to make that journey to enlightenment. I used to follow Maharaji for that purpose, and that purpose only. But somewhere along the line of my life, a surprising change happened to me. I saw myself in a different light, so to speak, and I saw myself as a being who did not need enlightenment, who in fact was already the being that he was made to be. I now think that my earlier hopes for enlightenment were a little silly, because I didn't really know what the hell I was pursuing, nor could I know. I also could not know whether or not Rawat was my true guide. How could I know? How could I ever know? I realized that perfection is not for me. Humility, gratitude, acceptance, honor, love - all these wonderful things ARE for me. I am most fully blessed, just as I am, and always have been. And if there is in fact a perfectness, then I of course salute it. How could I not?

So you see, I have left off the question of whether or not I should follow Rawat as the Master. It's not exactly that I answer that question as a NO. It's just that I realize I need not answer. I need not follow. There is nothing that Rawat has to give that I need to receive. So why follow him? There is no reason to follow him.

So I think I have made my point, and I hope I have done so in a way that is not too long and is comprehensible to you. Please let me know if you have any comment. I would really appreciate some sort of reply explaining the goal you have in life? Do you want enlightenment? Do you want to change your consciousness in some way? Do you want to go somewhere that Rawat says exists? In short, why do you follow him as your Master?

Whatever explanation you can give that is comprehensible by both sides of the brain would be particularly welcomed. I am afraid that an explanation that relys only on a heart-felt feeling would probably not go far toward our mutual understanding, because I am sure that 'that feeling' is experienced by the devotees of Satpal just as much as they are experienced by Rawat's current premies, and by other people as well. What I hope to achieve is a way for 'that feeling' to be shared among us all. What I would applaud would be a reunion of Satpal and Prempal under one love, one philosophy, one acceptance of the mystery of life. What I don't want are fake answers to the mystery of life. Let it be a mystery. I don't think that God will mind if I don't answer it or even seek to answer it. I fear that guruism diverts our attention and our hearts from the very thing that the heart truely wants, which is that which unites us all in our essential unity.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:03:46 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes Way, good post (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:50 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: very good questions nt
Message:
xxx
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:07:11 (EDT)
From: David Andersen
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
Hey Mike
---
--sorry but I absolutely disagree. I've witnessed personally many times over the years event details, protocols, procedures, structures, and chronologies that M had nothing to do with--and thst's just not the last 15 years, that's 28 years. Hindsight abd memory can be useful AND can be damaging. With all due respect, I submit that it was and is impossible for m to be on top of every detail.....it's just not true, IMO.

Memory can be a tricky thing. I'm certainly not calling you a liar, but what you say definitely does NOT jibe with my experience; certainly M has big input into many event aspects, no doubt; but you spin it in a pretty negative way, Homes....(why am I not surprised?)
:-)
More later; gotta go. Take care....DA

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:11:21 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
hi david from 72-84 you were not nearly as exposed to the inner workings of events, plane building, travelling, PR, magazines, divine times, land purchases, car purchases, throne building, stage building, venue selection, initiator selection, instructor conferences etc. as I was, to say the least...my main point is simply (and i didn't put a negative spin on it)...m has himself consistantly promoted devotion and dedication to himself. that was the essesence of the path.

how could you possibly disagree with that fundamental truth. now, we could bring guy rollins and teddy tannenbaum and jeff grossberg and joe natter into this conversation perhaps as folks acutally following the directions of the master in many of these areas...they would agree with my observations.

david, you were on the fringes during these years...be honest now. when you say 'i'll bet he shit when he saw the blue flamed chair' you have to be speculating...i was there and he loved it! In fact, the general situation during all those years was that we could never get it quite right...should have always been more..more whatever, more flowers, more shine, more devotion...never good enough for him...he always found some fault in what was given out of hard work, 7/24 dedicaton.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:17:29 (EDT)
From: David A.
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
Funny
---
I remember him thanking people consistently for their hard work from a very early point
---
and I love working with/for people with high standards, that are never satisfied, as long as they treat me with respect....and M always has.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:22:35 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: David A.
Subject: Gee, David,
Message:
I worked on all the stages from millenium on, worked at deca,
worked on his res, worked on his furniture, amars crib stuff,
the cars the helicopter, the 707 and other aircraft,
and the only time he referred to the 'thank you' concept was when
he said, and I bet you recall, 'sometimes I feel to say thank you
but then I realize the premies tried to do it, couldnt and the grace
came in and did it and so ....'

he NEVER did and if he started, it was after his mom died and he went through his mid life crisis, which, was not successful because he
reverted in late 96 back to the i am lord schtick.
December 11, night program.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:23:18 (EDT)
From: David A.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: Gee, David,
Message:
So--I guess you don't believe me. Not much I can do about that. But don't automatically expect me or anyone else to believe you....Did you have any great times doing all that stuff, or was it all a fear-based sacrifice? I'm not being an asshole; I really want to know. I can't imagine busting my ass for no fun, no love, payoff. It doesn't make sense.

Take care....DA

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:11:22 (EDT)
From: Francesca ;C)
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: donner YOU !** Best Of Forum**
Message:
Mike:

You've done it again. Thanks for hanging in there. Just like they did to Abi on FV, people seem to knock really hard on those with factual information, rather than 'feelings.'

love, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:28:20 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Personal Observation
Message:
Thanks Michael.

I have one personal observation of this, as somebody who spent very little time around Maharaji.

In 1979, they were designing the stage for Hans Jayanti in Kissimmee at DECA. There was I think a mock up of the stage. I stood at the side while Maharaji mercilessly laid into the premies doing the design about how he hated it. They kept asking what he wanted that was different and he wouldn't respond. The vibe was that if they were real devotees they would know what he wanted without him saying it. His behavior was not only abusive, it was scary, and I was incredibly relieved that I was not the target of his attacks.

So, in this particular situation, there was going to be NO stage design until Maharaji approved it, which he eventually did.

Not one leaf moves, you know.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:25:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Personal Observation
Message:
I also had personal observances especially during the Internation Instructor's Conference in 1985ish. I was part of the administrative staff. M would come into the conference room early in the am and late at pm to convey exactly what he wanted done. Most of the premies during those days could not talk to M, they just got all 'limpy' but I remember him being in very much control. He spent a lot of time talking to me because I wasn't shy and had administration skills as well as devotion. We worked very hard to make that conference run smoothly. Like 18 hrs. a day. He had no qualms about our sleep deprivation. When prems say that M was victimized, it's a clear indication they have never been around him.

David Anderson has been around a long time and I'm sure he remembers many things but 28 yrs is 28 yrs and face it, it's hard to remember it all. Besides M is the omnipresent one, not us. We only saw what we had permission to see. We can only remember what we once knew.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:39:24 (EDT)
From: like est to landmark forum
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
Either way the cult has revised it's image drastically to both hide the personality cult aspect and also to attract people who are not into the hippie, east Indian thing. (people with money perhaps?)

I'm very doubtful Maharaji just woke up one day and happened to notice all the changes and smiled and shrugged and said ok.
I do agree on one thing, Mr. Andersen (any relation to our dear Rob Andersen?) M is definitely not on top of a lot of things.

Selene

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:40:36 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: like est to landmark forum
Subject: last msg from selene
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:02:05 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: David A...
Message:
Hi David

(BTW, were you posting as 'Harry' a few days ago on 'Lifes Great? Just a hunch, but no more than that ..)

Anyway, I was looking at your respone to Donner and the timing of it. Many hours after PW's valid,deeply thoughtful post. A post such as that can't just go unanswered so I'm hoping you are giving it the deep consideration it deserves as opposed to side-stepping it :)

I just have a few comments. I've noticed from you and Pia, Charles et al and even 'Harry', the anonymous PAM, a tendency to refer to Donner and Dettmers in particular as 'having their own slanted agenda' and other vague insuations, but there is never a particular, out and out allegation directed against either of them.Nor is there any inclination or desire from any current PAM, webhost etc to reaally go head to head with either of those two guys and REALLY discuss matters. Those two have played incredibly important roles within 'Maharajis world', so to speak and vague asides are just not good enough.Also unlike you and Patrick (Maharaji meets and bonds with 'his' musicians) they have seen the multi-faceted Maharaji...the good, the bad and the ugly , if you like:)

A similar reaction occured years ago when Mishler jumped ship. Almost a Stalin like tendency to rewrite history and brush certain individuals out of it. Stalins fav trick was to doctor photographs. Each time he had a close party member liquidated they suddenley disappeared from photographs and were subsequently maligned. No, I'm not comparing Mr Rawat with Stalin per se, but I'm sure you get my drift. Mishler (who had Rawat as best man at his wedding) suddenley was viwed as a mind-infested fruitcake. This view was prevalent from top to bottom. I've never heard anyone mention it recently but there was even a 'nudge and a wink ' understanding that somehow his early death was a result of bad karma! Sounds crazy, but this side of the pond at least that was widely intimated in the usual Premie way :)

You seem to have asked the question more than once 'did you ever love Maharaji?'. Now you as a musician PAM also know the guy to some extent as an individual as well as a stage personna. The vast majority of us though don't have that to weigh in the equation. I think PW really describes well the mixture of love and fear (but with hindsight I'd question the 'reality' of that love as areal (as opposed to a conditioned figment of imagination) individual connection between any joe premie and Rawatbut deep down I reckon the fear WAS there in the majority of premies. A lot of the time ashrams were based on it. That's Rawats ashrams btw. Owned, run and directed (ultimately) by him via the David Smiths et al. That is not to say we had deep, loving, powerful experiences at times. But that's not the same as really 'loving' Rawat. Again PW really gets to the nitty gritty, under the surface reality of the mixed and murky (ironically, not at all 'clear' experience of being a premie. Also it won't wash just to say' that was years ago in the 70's/early 80's man' It is OUR COMMON PAST. IT IS OUR HISTORY, OUR LIFE. If we can't truly LEARN from OUR OWN HISTORY then all the talk that Rawat has matured and EVOLVED is hogwash. For evolved I'd substitue AVOIDED.

So I hope you'll give Patricks post some deep thought and respond to it in kind. He certainly puts into words a lot of what I (and I'm sure many others)experienced from the early 70's as a young man right up to the late 90's. The story of our lives.

I jsut thought I'd post this but actually I really want to take a good long break from reading and posting. I'm glad I read Patricks post before doing so.

I need to chill out for a little while from thinking about Rawat and K. I'm glad to say I can do that in peace!

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:31:53 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: PS !
Message:
Just as I was grilling some cheese on toast it occured to me (oh..these Divine insights , so unpredictable!)

No seriously....when Rawat says 'don't like it? Just WALK!'

Goin back to the point of it being our history, our life it occurred to me what a completely ridiculous, shallow (bordering on spiteful even???) thing to say.

How can a 25 year + history just be walked away from without serious thought, reflection, discussion, feeling ?

Just walk .....that's a stupid thing to say or it's another example again of him AVOIDING the deep, fundamental issues.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:37 (EDT)
From: David Andersen
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: PS !
Message:
Fascinating how we frame things differently: 'just walk' has always struck me as liberating, as challenging, as saying hey, if you're doing this out of a sense of guilt or duty or fear, then you should do something else
---
life's too quick to be in pain & doubt a lot of the time.
I am, after all, the only one going in the hole when I kick the bucket, so I'd better make it good while it lasts.
Of COURSE people will go through whatever they go through when they make a big life decision, and it will probably be painful, and confronting, and difficult; that's kind of a priori, and understood by most adults. To me, it's exactly like saying to a loved one 'if you really can't accept me and love me as I am, with all my flaws and quirks, then you should take a hike from this relationship; it's pretty obviously not working for you...' But, I agree, to get to that place takes some work. However, I don't perceive M's statement as disrespectful or denigrating. Confronting, yes.

Have a good break. Turn off your fucking computer and go do something in the natural world....remember the call of the wild.....DA

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: PS !
Message:
Hi Dermot, that's a great point. When anyone exes on these forums ask the prems why would they want to be here if they were so content with M & K they avoid answers. Of course they want to understand what the heck is going on around here, how could any thinking person not.

It only took me hours to draw a conclusion but it's the sorting out of the past, present, and future that takes time.

Thanks for considerate nudge the other day regarding one of my posts, Dermot. You're a good man. Have a nice break!

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:22:44 (EDT)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: ** Best Of Forum**
Message:
Hey Mike
---
--sorry but I absolutely disagree. I've witnessed personally many times over the years event details, protocols, procedures, structures, and chronologies that M had nothing to do with--and thst's just not the last 15 years, that's 28 years. Hindsight abd memory can be useful AND can be damaging. With all due respect, I submit that it was and is impossible for m to be on top of every detail.....it's just not true, IMO.

Memory can be a tricky thing. I'm certainly not calling you a liar, but what you say definitely does NOT jibe with my experience; certainly M has big input into many event aspects, no doubt; but you spin it in a pretty negative way, Homes....(why am I not surprised?)
:-)
More later; gotta go. Take care....DA


---

Again, to reiterate what Dr Andersen says - your take is absolutely incorrect Mike....

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 23:02:41 (EDT)
From: Krusty the Klown
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More questions for ForumGod, or FA or whatever
Message:
A question, my lord:

You say in the notes that 'This is a place for former followers to reflect, etc.' What is your offical position regarding this place as a place to coordinate disruptive activities of programs or ev events, or harrassment of ev doing its thing?

'When you talk about destruction, don't you know you can count me out...'

---
-John Lennon, 'Revolution'

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:47:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Questions for Krusty.
Message:
A question, my lord:

You say in the notes that 'This is a place for former followers to reflect, etc.' What is your offical position regarding this place as a place to coordinate disruptive activities of programs or ev events, or harrassment of ev doing its thing?

'When you talk about destruction, don't you know you can count me out...'

---
-John Lennon, 'Revolution'


---

Krusty, why on Earth would anyone want to do anything like that?

Has anyone ever done anything like that in the past?

The cult self-destructed years ago. The only ones left are the real hard-core believers in the Lord in human form, and a few new people, who haven't sniffed the 'cult' yet, hanging around until their colds get better. We're the firefighters cleaning up the mess the morning after.

Trying to disrupt the Captains cult, is like trying to cause damage to property in Grozny, or Kabul. There's nothing left standing to damage.

Do we know you Krusty? Are you a premie or an ex? Have you posted under other names?

Anth, just answer the questions maam, then you can go home.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:21:10 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Info for Anth.
Message:
Anth, as ususal I think you missed a few points.

Ms. programs in Europe have been extremely successful.

Ex-premies own behaviour is self-destructive, their credibilty is gone.

No longer is EPO the one and only place where ex-premies can abuse PWKs, and censor their posts. No longer they can ridicule PWKs and steal their rights of freedom of speech.

There is a tiny change in the understanding that we are in the same boat; i.e. we have one thing in common, we are PWKs-

Amsterdam (who thinks there are way too many chemicals in Anths brain and that he asks questions that are none of his business).

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:53:17 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Amsterdam
Message:
Amsterdam, I don't think it's the drugs that are preventing me deciphering your gibberish. Have you considered getting professional help? You sound like a confused person to me.

Maybe you should quit the cult and try chemicals instead.

It wowowowowowowowowowowowoworkeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed ffffffffoooooooorrrrrrrr mmmmmmmmemeeeeeeanthatriptoofaraarrrrrrrrrtgh

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:19:39 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: One more thing
Message:
This is an ex-premie forum. Read the intro. If you think you're being abused here, by all means go away. I don't think you are being abused, however. The only premies who have had trouble were nasty, nasty, nasty. (For example, many of us like CD, he's always been pretty nice.) This is, rather, the forum where premie trolls can come and abuse exes, IMO.

I must admit though, some exes get their licks in on Lifes Great (or was that Life's Hate?), but they ain't me.

--f

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:16:02 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Well you just proved yourself wrong
Message:
Your post is still here, innit?

Good cult party line though. The best mantras never change.

;-)

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:35:30 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: To Anth
Message:
Anth,

Amsterdam says'No longer is EPO the one and only place where ex-premies can abuse PWKs, and censor their posts. No longer they can ridicule PWKs and steal their rights of freedom of speech.'

So now Anth look at EV sites and m's site to see real examples of non-censoring and freedom of speech.

All ther best

jeth

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 09:44:30 (EDT)
From: Amsterdam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: ToJethro
Message:
Jethro
So your point is???

An information page, that never was intended to be a discussion site, but merely promote and inform, is examples of censoring freedom of speech?

I think I missed your point. Do you mean if Ford Motor had a information page, it should contain the 'voice of the critics'?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:24:05 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: EV On-line Brochures
Message:
Do you mean if Ford Motor had a information page, it should contain the 'voice of the critics'?

Actually it should - then they would know what their customers like and don't like about their cars. I read a very interesting article by Douglas Adams (RIP) where he discussed the development of computers, and how they have modelled previously existing objects in human life, but humans are always several steps behind what they are actually capable of.

The first computers were used as calculators. Then word processing programs came which were basically typewriters. Then came the internet, and every company believed they should have an internet site. But their sites (Adams actually used BMW as an example) were basically brochures. The one site he cited as actually ineractive in dealing with their customers was Amazon. He wrote to them and pointed out that they had no system for recording the names of books that customers had searched for but couldn't find. Amazon responded and now have such a feature. He then suggested asking customers which books they would like to see made into films, and selling the info to Holywood. Again Amazon responded.

The point is, all EV's sites are brochures (and Maharaji's brochure is well out of date - where are the stats for 1999 & 2000?). No interaction, censorship of submissions to ELK (read EPO for the evidence), no links to any on-line forums, including Lifes Great (last time I checked), and certainly no links to any of the critics' sites. BTW Enjoyinglife.org actually promised an on-line forum, but it never materialised.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:23:38 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Where's the Enjoyimg life forum
Message:
that was promised....or are you going to blame it all on Jon cainer?
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 09:52:08 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Amsterdam
Subject: Amsterdam or Krusty
Message:
Care to address any one of the 14 Objections posted below?

Richard Rogers who has a real name

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:09:38 (EDT)
From: mayo
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: lies all lies you liar
Message:
I challenge these terrible lies in the order in which they appear.

1)Hey anyone can make a mistake.

2)Everyone in Malibu has a mansion and a private jet, its normal, just like everyone in Australia has sun tan lotion, you don't think twice about it.

3)They were a chain of luxury hotels for singles modelled after Club Med. Ashram was just a brand name that we used.

4)(this is not funny at all)

5)There is a patent pending called Amazing 1 Click Meditation, so it is unique.

6)Who reads the fine print anyway?

7)Excuse me! don't you know what x-rated means. It does not mean too much materialism or a reckless lifestyle, it means too much sex, so this point can't be right then.

8)Dealt with in 7 above. Anyway when you have perfect genes, it is incumbant upon you to make them widely available no matter how distasteful the process may be. Enlightenment comes one fuck at a time.

9)No, no, no, this is totally incorrect, the man hit the car, there is a difference.

10)He does not smoke Cubans and he drinks decaf so how can you accuse him of abusing stimulants.

11)This actually just a Laser dinghy bought from K-Mart for $972.18 less 10%. Its name is the Seven Million Dollar Yacht. Just like the TV show was called the Six Million Dollar Man.

12)Its no different at the Metropolitan Opera in New York.

13)This is incorrect. You are taught to go inside on a long and lonely journey that you do yourself alone with no outside interventon and what you put in you get out and the external world cannot impact on this internal voyage. He only suggests that you think of him with every breathe you take so that his name is on your lips at that fateful moment when you take your last breathe. This is the only possible way to escape the endless cycle of birth and death. Of course you are totally free to ignore this dire warning but you may live again to regret your decision.

14)This is deep but the good news is that if you have an inner friend then you can always play an inner game of tennis.

So you see Richard, at a stroke you have been discredited and shown to be a godless Chinese communist party member. I spit on your braggon.

mayo.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:16:48 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: mayo
Subject: Re: lies all lies you liar
Message:
Thanks so much, Mr Mustard errr, I mean Mayo for that wonderful and quite astute reponse to The 14 Objections. You have made everything so clear and have contributed an important retort to all us hate-filled loosers here.

Richard who will probably at his last breath say 'Holy fu.........!!!!!!!!'

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:28:25 (EDT)
From: mayo
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: you misrepresent me
Message:
I call myself 'mayo' because you people here are all lost in the mayo, if wanted to name myself after a condiment I would probably choose 'pickle' as in 'what a pickle you people here are in'

Furthermore I realised at once that you were a religious fundamentalist nutcase, who else would want to die with the world 'holy' on his lips. 'f...' I can understand and in fact thats got to be the way to go.

As we say in the trade 'coitus terminatus'

mayo

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 02:09:30 (EDT)
From: Mr D
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Re: More questions for ForumGod, or FA or whatever
Message:
It's never happened on any previous forum. When was the last event that was disrupted by ex-premies? There's comments here about what EV does but that's not harrassment.

This place is a talkng shop. Nothing more. Much is revealed by people who post here. It's benign. It harms nobody.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 06:02:24 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mr D
Subject: Re: More questions for ForumGod, or FA or whatever
Message:
Who the hell is Mr. D.

Well, that an idea for you, start an FAQ, dah?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 00:05:25 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Read the top of the page
Message:
Current premies may also post here although if you try to push your own beliefs about Maharaji and his knowlege onto people, you will find scant agreement here

same shit gonna happen to you if you go to LG and tell everyone to stick it because they are a bunch or retards, stupid and mahraji is a fag. But am sure you don't think that. So why don't you stop knittpicking and start posting, ya?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:50:17 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, what's LG and where is it?
Message:
Hi Salam,

What's LG and how do I get to it?

Howya doin? Looks like I missed lots of forum fun.

Anth who promises not to touch anything.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 05:58:36 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What LG he says.
Message:
where have you been man in the eskemo? LG stands for Light Gas, it's the stuff you get when you eat a lot of beans. Nnnaaahhhh just kidding. Probably someone else gave you the address. But here is a good collection of finger tips links. All you need to tell where to go and it will take you there, dah?

Limks for Anth

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 05:12:34 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Salam, what's LG and where is it?
Message:
Just in case you are in a tearing hurry to get there Anth.
Lifes Great (sic)
[ Lifes Great ]
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 10:57:15 (EDT)
From: Krusty the Klown
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Yes, a destructive agenda
Message:
Yes, I got Knowledge many years ago, whether I still practice or go to programs is none of anyone's business....

The Expremy forum has as a fact been a meeting point for many organzied efforts to try to interfere with Maharaji. Recntly Deborah and Jean Michel openly tried to solicit letter writing campaign to block the televising of Maharaji.

People have traded notes forum V about upcoming programs and tried to organzie picketing and leaflets and many have made anaonymous phone calls to hotels and meeting halls to try and cancel plans. One of the French sponsors of the anti-cult law got on the radio and suggested that people phone in bomb threats to auditoriums.

Don't be naive. Some folks are here to explore, but there are others here to exploit anger and hate. And don't forget the way the forum was used to post private inofrmation about people for the sole purpose of having people call his office and get him in trouble.

As much as I am interested in exploring the internal issues I may have with Maharaji, I am also wanting to hear from the FA god about whther this is also meant as a meeting place for 'pro-active' people to do things to stop Maharaji.

Thanking you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:55:59 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Thas right!
Message:
KtK: whther this is also meant as a meeting place for 'pro-active' people to do things to stop Maharaji.


Yous guys into promulgation, no? I and I into promulgation of that reason, you know what I'm saying. Whassup?
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:00:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Clarification
Message:
Hey Krusty,

You commented:

Recntly Deborah and Jean Michel openly tried to solicit letter writing campaign to block the televising of Maharaji.

Not exactly. I wanted to know how to get in touch with the station so that I can tell them what is said about M. at the EPO.

If M has to give up public television because HIS PAST id chasing him, than it is HIS own undoing.

If it was a show on UFO's and you could say, hey, I know he has a mock up model of a spacecraft and access to some nifty software, wouldn't you call?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:26:55 (EDT)
From: church mouse
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Oh God, she is so...unbearably
Message:
horribly grotesque...and

now this rabid creature ia attacking the UFO club...!

HER PAST id chasing her?

something sure the fuck is!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:29:09 (EDT)
From: CAT!
Email: None
To: church mouse
Subject: Re: Oh God, she is so...unbearably
Message:
Hi David, or is that MK?
Why are such a cowardly, mousey Cat?
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:59:49 (EDT)
From: The exterminator
Email: None
To: CAT!
Subject: another computer and someone else's handle?
Message:
Wow,

aren't YOU just a picture of credibilty?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:04:14 (EDT)
From: CAT!
Email: None
To: The exterminator
Subject: m-bots
Message:
Don't read too much into browser types. They, like you, are maya, an illusion I've conjured to dance with.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:16:42 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Some good sugestions, Krusty
Message:
1. Call newspapers in the cities where Rawat is holding a program and try to get a reporter to write a critical story on Rawat. Point the reporter to the EPO main site. Do the same to the local TV and stations.

2. Call the hotels and auditoriums and let them know about the 'Speaker' and his attempts to brainwash new people into his cult.

3. Picket program sites and leaflet the area with the truth about Rawat.

4. Call local radio talk shows and tell the listening audience about Rawat's destructive cult.

5. Write to any TV station showing Rawat's propoganda and tell them why you dislike this cult.

6. Phone in bomb threats to auditoriums? I hadn't thought of that one, as it's obviously illegal and not nice. No, that one's out, Krusty. But keep thinking.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:01:07 (EDT)
From: Krusty the Klown
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks for clearing that up
Message:
Good. When you call a reporter, make sure they read Deborah and Sofi's posts, and make sure they see the dozens of others that do so very much for your credibility. And make sure you tell them about the threats and flame wars and identity tracking. And remind them that your unsubstantiated allegations are 20 and 30 yrs old, and that there's never been a government indictment or fact-finding against Maharaji. That'll really get them interested.

Funny how on LG and other fourms, the EX's 'play nice' and talk all kinds of 'hey, I'm not out to hurt anyone' but not one person here has disavowed your agenda. I guess some people REALLY ARE suckers for group think, or are afraid of not being committed to the cause....sounds like a cult!!!!

'JOIN EX-PREMIE.ORG -- THE CLUB THAT LOVES TO HATE!!!!'

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:00:39 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: You sound like you're ...
Message:
... doing some pretty good hating yourself. Read your own posts.

I rest my case. :C)

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:46:07 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: you are welcome
Message:
It's not my agenda, Krusty. It's just a list of things anyone can do if they are so inclined. What are you worried about? If Rawat's clean, there's no problem, right?

I hope you took note that none of my suggestions include taking any action against Rawat's cult members. They all have to do with Rawat himself. He's made himself a public figure and can be held up to public scrutiny.

Your little dig at the end was childish, IMO. But then I am talking to 'Krusty the Klown.'

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:44:29 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Re: Thanks for clearing that up
Message:
Oh, I'm sure they reporters will get a kick out of it. If everyone was sitting around casually discussing cults and cult leaders, and cult deceptions, not to mention the sexual abuses, and murders, well that would just be weird.

Of course, there will be inflamed posts. I am not ashamed for a reporter to see my flames. Ironically, this is the type of stuff that makes good read. I've worked with Fox TV in California when they wanted to do a show on UFO's in the 80's. I know what makes Good TV

This is only shameful in the eyes of premies and perhaps the Maha BigHead. It's normal behaviour in lieu of what has gone on.
Nobody would take it seriously if it was as interesting as a 'Knitting Bee'. Gee. Give that comment more thought.

It hurts M and the wacko bandwagon, for CG to have his site. Especially because CG works for a prestigious law firm. CG's professional credibility would be embarrassingly hurt. Have I gone public with CG's site and its revelance. NO. But you are giving us some good ideas.

Who's Sofi?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:42:05 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Thanks for clearing that up
Message:
Haven't looked, won't look at Chuckies site, but someone mentioned Sofi wrote one of the journeys he lifted off EPO
uh, [charles that is] lifted the journey.
Such a fine example of a premie. Really. The best.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:42:42 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: No Thank you for clearing that up
Message:
Selene, I believe it was Silvia's post Glasser was talking about. Why do you think this guy is so defensive over NY television shows and the Glasser dude. He's an attorney for a prestigious firm, over 300 attorneys I believe I read somewhere. Until Glasser is only a mail boy I seriously doubt that he could get in trouble for having someone email him with an extremely ambiguous comment. Now, emailing other attorneys by mistake, or other tricky plots, could work at least as far as getting tongues wagging at his firm.

But this I'm not telling you if I paractice knowledge cat is obviously worried about NYers hearing any thing negative about Maha BigHead. Maybe he doesn't want his mommy to say, 'Sonny, I told you the guru was just a bad boy, why don't you ever listen to me?'

Maybe he could just let Glasser defend himself, you know, he's got a law degree now. Man should be able to defend himself, ya thunk?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:53:01 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Big typos in sentence above
Message:
The statement, But this I'm not telling you if I paractice knowledge cat is obviously worried about NYers hearing any thing negative about Maha BigHead. got messed up. Could have been me.
Read as: This cat is obviously worried about NYers hearing any thing negative about Maha BigHead. Don't know where the first part of sentence came from.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:05:34 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: A stolen phrase
Message:
Mi>The Lard Works in Mysterious Ways
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:09:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: A stolen phrase
Message:
maybes he's showing us whose boss. Forcing me to channel a premie in the middle of my anti-cult execution. Imaging that!
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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 21:51:41 (EDT)
From: Anth's post
Email: None
To: All
Subject: from the deceased forum
Message:
Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 08:20:52
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I'm having second thoughts.
Message:
Hi Everyone,
I thought I should let you all know I'm having second thoughts about quitting Knowledge and the Captain.

I should have seen it coming when Jim got zapped when he went through the darshan line in Amaroo, dressed in drag. (I assure you his present predicament is merely a consequence of the 'bolt of grace' that struck him when he confronted the Captain on his throne.)

And then there's the bold of lightning that struck my computer recently, blowing it up and rendering me offline and incommunicado. (If a bolt of lightning isn't an 'Act of God', then what is.)

And finally, when I get online again, I discover that the Forum Administration structure has collapsed, and the POWER is now in the hands of the raving loony, Anarchist recluse, subversive, cyber-nut-aristocrat, who ate too much lead in his game before he became a vegi-, Sir Dave. Catweazle would be a safer pair of hands. Surely the end is nigh and the enemies of the Lord are shaking under their duvets.

Surely the Lord has made his move- for yeah, not a worm farts without his will.

Anyway, all these so obviously cosmically connected events made me sit down and think again. I decided to do the rational thing, and practice with an open mind- just to see what would happen.

Well- first I felt this incredible peace welling up inside me. All my thoughts seemed to stop. Then my inner being started to glow to the extent that I was first surrounded by, then became one with a light that is not a light, yet more than a light, brighter than a thousand suns, and yet glinting in the eye of a new born baby.

Then from this light emerged Captain Rawat, wearing his pilot's uniform and carrying a bag of Duty Free cognac. It was as if he was at the very centre of creation.

The he spoke, 'Anth, once you were one of my favoured children, but you betrayed me. Before I cast you down to hell, to become decorations for Kali's party dress, I am offering you a final chance of redemption. Jim took it. Now it's your turn. Get out your standing order form, and authorise regular monthly payments of £50.00, or you will burn in hell for eternity. This is your last chance. Next time it won't just be your power supply and modem that gets blown.'

Well, I can take a hint. I went to the village and borrowed a photo of the Captain. You know, he doesn't look so bad after all. If he lost a bit of weight, cut down on the cigarettes.

Anyway, I'm feeling more peaceful than I've done for ages.

I'm thinking of checking out the local video next week.

I'd just like all my ex-premie friends to know that I still want to be friends, no matter what happens.

Anth, blinded on the road to the Damascus Arms.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:32:21 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Anth's post
Subject: For the record.
Message:
Hi,

When I put this post up on Saturday, as a couple of my friends pointed out, my tongue was well inside my cheek. I thought my vision of the Captain with a bag of duty-free would remove any doubt about what I was really saying (nothing as usual).

Anyway, it seems that not everyone got the joke, and I've had a few emails (well two), asking me if I'm really having second thoughts.

NO I'M NOT IT WAS A JOKE HONEST.

Anyway, I'd like to get onto something more serious.

I've finally realised where we went wrong following the Captain.

OK, he couldn't help a hamster realise where its sunflower seeds are. He needs the yoga techniques more than we do. This much even a blind ragworm can see.

However, we shouldn't let our disappointment in the Captain tarnish our path towards the Creator.

One place we went wrong was with the first technique, Holy Name as it was once known (maybe it was the 2nd or 3rd, whatever).

Anyway, SO HUNG, is a crap mantra. There are other mantras that have an existence on a more spiritual plane, and a few masters around who can initiate you into this higher level of knowledge.

They have ashrams, are vegis,wear orange, and chant the glory of the Lord all day.

They even have special rope-haircuts, so when the Lord swoops from his sky in his chariot at the end of the World, he can scoop them up without stopping.

I've been to a couple of meetings. They are real, sincere, honest, loving peaceful people. I get an incredible vibe from them, their altar and their curry.

Yeah, for the path takes us where we knew not, for when the Lord Krishna finally manifests, only those with the right tattoo shall be raised up to Valhalla...or something.

Anthjuna about to get a really wierd haircut and dye his long-johns orange.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:43:45 (EDT)
From: Mayo
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Oh no don't deny the truth
Message:
My dear dear friend,

I think that yhou are being toooo modest. Your post was sincere and from the bottom of your heart. I can tell these things. It has uplifted me and motivated me to return to the bliss as well. I confess that I too was freaked out, lost in the mayo. I tooo jumped off that ship that takes you across the deepest ocean in safety and at top speed.

Please don't let these insincere forum buggers get to you, remember they toooo are lost in the mayo.

Not only am I medidating again but I am giving myself an hour a day of satsang and I am singing farti at the end of it. Now I am looking forward to having doshan the earliest availability of the divine digits.

I am soooo happy now.

Peace, love and bliss to you my saviours messenger.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 05:17:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Re: For the record.
Message:
Anth, can you email me please.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:52:19 (EDT)
From: Mayo
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Hey you
Message:
Every second message on this forum is someone saying to someone else 'hey so and so - e-mail me'. Whats the point of having a forum if everyone is just using it to ask their friends to e-mail them you nutty knight.

PS. Please e-mail me your e-mail so I can e-mail you too otherwise I will just feel rejected and then go back to Mahavishnu and it will all be your fault.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 21:57:47 (EDT)
From: from Suchies post
Email: None
To: Anth's post
Subject: How to surrender Anth
Message:
'What surrender means is that you open yourself deeply: that you suspend your feelings of fear, resistance, doubt and misunderstanding. . . . In this way you become a manifestation of the teaching.' -- Chetanananda
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 13:07:05 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: from Suchies post
Subject: today:sex with a guru
Message:
this Chetananda expose is apparently being serialized each day in the print media and on the internet [to link each day just change the day number e.g. day1, day2, day3, etc.:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/guru_day2.frame

In the grip of the guru: A Broken Trust

Eleven women, all ex-disciples, say Swami Chetanananda's seduction of them was an abuse of the revered spiritual teacher's profound power over them as they sought enlightenment through him
Monday, July 16, 2001


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By Richard Read of The Oregonian staff
'Every authentic teacher you ever meet will also be a total rascal. I'm worse than that.' -- Chetanananda, in a Jan. 24, 1988, tape-recorded talk.


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In the grip of the guru
» Day 1: Securing a spiritual empire
» Day 2: A broken trust
» Day 3: Investing in the guru
» Day 4: Leaving the guru
Dana Swift's life hit bottom one day in February 1988. She warmed herself by an open oven door, watching roaches climb the kitchen wall.
At 24, the Boston bartender had done drugs, done boys, done everything that interested her. Please God, she remembers thinking, in her apartment near Cambridge, Mass., there's got to be more to life than this.
She reached for the Yellow Pages.
Manicures. Massage. Mattresses.
Swift says she hated her boss at another job, who sexually harassed her. She was mad at her boyfriend, who was mean. Severely traumatized as a child, she felt worthless. She says she just wanted to withdraw from everything. On some level, she knew she needed help.
Mausoleums. Media.
Swift wore black, her standard uniform. The outfit, set off by hostile gray-blue eyes and red hair, warned people off her path.
There it was. Meditation.
Swift dialed a few numbers for meditation centers. Then she hit upon one. 'Nityananda Institute,' said a woman's cheery voice.
The woman invited Swift to a Sunday open house to hear Swami Chetanananda field questions. Chetanananda, an American-born guru originally named J. Michael Shoemaker, had moved his group of about 60 followers six years earlier to Cambridge, Mass., from Bloomington, Ind.
Swift attended a talk by the orange-robed guru, who sat cross-legged on a wide wooden chair above Shiva, an attack-trained Rottweiler named for a Hindu god. Disciples taped the swami's Sunday talks and other lectures, and sent the cassettes to members of a tape-of-the-month club.
Swift recalls soaking up the teachings, thirsting for the swami's divine energy, drinking in his every word during evening lectures. She felt euphoric, as if she were deeply in love.
She worked to surrender herself completely.


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'The teacher takes on the student's tensions and processes it and gives it back to the student as energy.' -- Chetanananda, in remarks recorded March 13, 1988 -- the month after Swift first saw him -- for the March tape-of-the-month.

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Swift remembers a meditation class that March. She dropped her black jacket on the floor and sat on it. Chetanananda's closest followers took choice seats on pre-placed pillows. They chanted in unison.
Swift closed her eyes in meditation. When something touched her forehead, she jumped. It was Chetanananda, holding two fingers between her eyebrows.
The guru was giving shaktipat, funneling energy into her.
Some disciples groaned at his touch and keeled over. Others convulsed. A few responded with loud screams that struck Swift as primal, they were so eerie.
The guru's institute owned four houses near the Radcliffe College campus. According to a later chronology published by the institute, followers opened Rudi's Bakery, named for his late mentor, in Boston in 1982. The next year, the chronology said, they launched Rudra Press, a publishing company.
Chetanananda recruited editors who say they produced books from his lectures. He attracted some wealthier members. The institute's newsletters repeatedly thanked donors for helping with expenses in Cambridge and on Martha's Vineyard, the island off Cape Cod where the institute owned a retreat center and some acreage.
On this day in March 1988, Swift's knees began to hurt. She strove to breathe into her chakras, the seven internal energy centers recognized by yoga practitioners.
She fought the urge to shift her knees. She thought she could feel the energy flowing, dissolving crystallized tension deep inside her. She felt the sense of euphoria fill her.


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'You can continuously choose to discover and live in a finer realm than the one you travel in,' -- Chetanananda, in a tape-of-the-month recorded March 13, 1988.

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After an evening lecture that March, Swift noticed that as usual Chetanananda's favored followers disappeared upstairs.
She watched Sharon Ward, a lawyer who was the guru's right-hand woman and administrator, walk up to the swami's third-floor apartment. She saw John Robert 'Bob' Shoemaker, the guru's brother, whom Chetanananda married to Ward in a ceremony that month, head up the stairs.
Swift remembers feeling secure in the self-contained community, where disciples renounced meat and alcohol. Without venturing outside the group, followers could see lawyers, homeopathic practitioners, massage therapists, computer experts, a tax accountant or jewelry and carpet dealers.
To Swift, it began to seem normal that people asked the swami what clothes they should wear, whether they should dye their hair, what style of eyeglasses to wear, whether they should date another disciple.
One day, she says, the swami told her not to wear black. She bought a new wardrobe full of colors.
Swift says she yearned to feel close to Chetanananda. But she felt that the inner circle consisted only of chosen followers with money, looks or useful expertise. She wondered what happened in his inner sanctum.


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'A real spiritual teacher does not in any way need to control you or your thinking.' -- Chetanananda, on the tape-of-the-month, recorded April 24, 1988.

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Years later, two followers who climbed those stairs recalled how special they felt. They described the guru's routine in his private quarters, on condition that their names not be used.
In his suite on several evenings that spring disciples filled wooden bowls from a buffet on a glass table set below track-lit Tibetan artwork. They sat on pillows on the floor facing their leader. The followers noticed the appetizing smell of brown rice and vegetables filling the room.
Chetanananda settled into a plush leather armchair, a former member of the inside circle recalls. More than once, he turned on the movie 'Repo Man,' watching Emilio Estevez play the street punk who began repossessing cars after his parents gave his college money to a televangelist's cult.
One of the ex-followers recalls Chetanananda beckoning a student to sit just below him. He gave the man shaktipat. Soon the disciple fell backward.
Casually, the guru returned to the movie.
At the end of the evening, disciples quietly competed to gather dishes for washing in the apartment's cramped kitchen. Disciples also cleaned the swami's suite, picked up his socks, washed his car. The point was to serve the guru and keep him happy, no matter what it took.


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'Literally I have, you know, 20 people in my room from 8 o'clock in the morning 'til 10 o'clock at night. It's continuously changing, but it's there.' -- Chetanananda, April 24, 1988, talk.

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Finally in April 1988, Chetanananda invited Swift to his room.
But she says she thought it odd that he led her upstairs by the hand. She pulled her hand away.
In his room, he sat on a small couch and patted the seat next to him. She says she concluded he was propositioning her.
Other women disciples said years later that, despite Chetanananda's vow of celibacy during his 1978 initiation as a swami, they were accustomed to sexual advances from the guru. In all, 11 women told The Oregonian that Chetanananda had had sex with them while they studied with him. They provided detailed accounts corroborated in multiple cases by people they told at the time.
Given the swami's profound influence over them then, the 11 women say the sex was damaging.
'Sex is never appropriate for a person in the role of counselor, psychologist, doctor or teacher,' said one of the women. She was a medical student in 1997, when she says he seduced her after they each drank a bottle of wine in his suite inside the Portland ashram.
The women said that far from being consenting adults, they felt they could not say no to a spiritual teacher they trusted with their souls.
Chetanananda refused repeated requests for an interview with The Oregonian. Last Thursday, he responded to questions with a typed statement in which he acknowledged having had 'sexual relationships with mature, adult consenting women' during the past 30 years.
The guru wrote that the last vow he took during his initiation in India was to renounce all other vows and to return to teach. He is not celibate, he wrote.
In 1997, Chetanananda said during a talk that his spiritual practice had evolved.
'For me, purity has nothing to do with what you eat or don't eat and who you sleep with,' the swami said then. 'If living in a bordello and doing whatever every night is what helps you do it, that's fine, too. For me.'
In his statement last week, Chetanananda said that while it was inappropriate for high-school and college instructors to have sex with their students, his situation in a long-standing community of 'consenting adults' was different.
'Anyone who is offended by the existence of such relationships simply should find a practice and a teacher with whom they agree,' Chetanananda wrote.
Swift says she never had sex with the swami and didn't dwell on his conduct that day.
She says she chose to sit apart from him in his room that day in 1988, and searched for a safe subject of conversation. When you stay with your parents, she said, do you attend Catholic church with them?
The swami glared at her. My father is a . . . bigot, she recalls him yelling, pounding the arm of a chair.
Swift sat in confused silence. The swami asked after a romantic interest of hers.
He's fine, Swift said. But the swami shook his head.
No more, she recalls him saying.
So when the guy phoned a couple of days later, Swift cut him off cold. Swift felt that if the guru had asked her never to talk to her best friend again, she would have cut her off, too.


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'If you're going to do any kind of deep experiencing . . . the first thing you're going to have to get through is that piece of plastic in your head called the mind. It's just Saran Wrap.' -- Chetanananda, May 11, 1988, in a talk the month after Swift visited his room.

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Another woman -- then one of Chetanananda's closest disciples, and now one of the 11 who say he had sex with them -- says she bounded up the back stairs to his apartment May 19, 1988, eager to see the man she considered God.
The woman, who spoke on condition that her name be withheld, remembers it this way: They stepped into his bedroom. His orange T-shirt, baggy black sweat pants and bikini briefs fell to the floor. They made love.
The woman says they had been lovers since Oct. 12, 1987, when she submitted to him while groggy from pain medication and tranquilizers that she took following surgery. She says Chetanananda, who was staying for three nights as a houseguest of her and her then-husband, said that her troubled marriage was destined to fail.
The swami told her, she says, that she had been his princess in Germany during his last life and would be his queen in this life. She recalls the swami saying that she had been sent to him by Rudi, his late mentor, and Nityananda, Rudi's guru.
She believed that an omniscient being had fallen in love with her.
Yet, she says at other times, when the swami became distant and withdrawn, she felt a sense of dread bordering on fear.
She says he had violent, painful sex with her, and her fear grew.
In his statement last week, the swami did not specifically respond to a question about whether he had had violent sex with women, causing them injuries. 'I am not violent,' he said, however. 'I have always tried to act in the best interests of everyone who practices here.'
The woman says she woke from a nightmare several nights later, terrified.
She told the guru that in the dream, she stood at the intersection of four corridors.
She looked down the corridor ahead of her and saw a black dog. She looked down the right passage and saw another black dog. Down the hall behind her, she saw a third black dog.
Along the left corridor stood a man with a gun. She had no way out.
She says the guru told her to remember what Rudi had said: The only way out of Dodge City is straight up.


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'Open yourself completely every day. . . . Don't worry about the beauty or the pain of it. . . . There's no growth without distress and disturbance.' -- Chetanananda, tape of the month for June 1988, less than a month after the second woman of the 11 says he had had painful sex with her.

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The same woman says Chetanananda telephoned her a few weeks later. He asked her to buy him a handgun for his collection of firearms.
The woman felt sick. She never bought the revolver. She felt the guru's attention and affections diminish. She felt that the request for the gun had been a test.
She says Chetanananda had sex with her most recently in 1996. Ever since the violent sexual encounter, the woman felt isolated. She faulted herself for failing somehow.
But she was not alone. A third woman says the swami arranged in Bloomington for her to marry a follower she barely knew. She says the guru had sex with her twice while she was married.
A fourth woman says she performed oral sex on the guru at his request after she gave him therapeutic massages. She says that in 16 years of giving massages as a nurse, she had never had sex with other patients. She says she believes that her desire for a strong father figure led her to submit to the guru.
A fifth woman says Chetanananda seduced her in Cambridge and continued having sex with her about every six weeks for six years. She says he told her that she should devote her energy to a spiritual path instead of having a boyfriend, and that he would try to be a boyfriend for her.
'I simply wanted him as a meditation teacher,' she says. 'I was incredibly naive and trusting and didn't know any better.'
The women spoke on condition that their names would be withheld, saying they feared retribution and deserved anonymity as victims of sexual abuse.
Women said the guru linked sensuality with his spiritual practice. They felt the swami establishing a special bond during open-eye meditation, when he stared into the eyes of advanced students.
'Being extra close to the guru means that you become extremely special,' said a sixth woman, who said that she had had sex with Chetanananda three times. 'You don't object. This is the guru, remember?'
A seventh woman described lingering psychological and emotional scars from an intensive four-year sexual relationship with the swami. 'I honestly thought it was going to get me all the way' to enlightenment and God, she said. 'He led me to believe that he was the way to get there, and if I didn't continue to participate there would be great harm to me.'
Diane Asay, a current disciple, said students bear responsibility for choosing to have sex with the guru.
'I've watched people climb all over people to get into his bed,' Asay said. She says jealous former lovers are going public to hurt the swami, who is helping to lead a grand spiritual reformation that will make their complaints appear trivial a century from now.


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'I don't get any points in heaven for all the people I brought in. I don't. It benefits you.' -- Chetanananda, at his birthday retreat, July 23, 1988.

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Former disciples say the sexual conduct described by the 11 women affected a wider circle of people.
Swift says that a distraught young man, one of the swami's most committed students, came to her apartment in the summer of 1990.
She says he told her that his girlfriend, also a disciple, had told him that Chetanananda had had sex with her. His girlfriend said it had happened a few times two years before.
Swift was stunned. She was hearing for the first time that her teacher was not celibate. She tried to console the young disciple.
Yet sex between gurus and disciples is common, sociologists and other experts say, due to some gurus' absolute power over devoted followers. The New Yorker magazine reported in November 1994, for example, that some women who followed the late Swami Muktananda, the man who initiated Chetanananda as a swami, said the guru from India had had sex with them.
Muktananda, who died in 1982, preached celibacy. Scores of devotees left his organization after hearing of the sexual allegations, The New Yorker reported.
Swift says that in 1990, after the young man left her apartment, she paced around swearing about Chetanananda. She felt the guru's students were lost beings seeking help and that he was taking advantage of them.
The man says he stewed for a month. Then a college graduate in his 20s, he had studied under the guru for six years. He spoke on condition that his name not be used, because he says he still has affection for the community. He says his girlfriend's revelation broke his heart.
He confronted the swami on the ashram's back porch.
It's not a big deal, he remembers the guru saying. She made the advances; what was I supposed to do?


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'Now personally I think celibacy is total baloney. In India it's one thing. But here it's something totally different.' -- Chetanananda, April 1992 tape-of-the-month.

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Disciples recall Chetanananda speaking repeatedly in Cambridge of his frustration over the ashram's cramped space.
They say the Boston area had proven a more difficult place than expected for Chetanananda to woo recruits and gain stature.
Key disciples searched the nation for a new site, almost buying a former alcohol rehabilitation center in Florida. Then a disciple's relative in Portland mentioned Laurelhurst Manor, a former retirement home for sale at 1021 N.E. 33rd Ave.
One evening in late 1992, disciples recall, Sharon Ward announced in the crowded meditation room that the institute would move to Portland, Oregon.


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'Spiritual growth is about surrender, not about understanding. Whenever that part of you that wants to figure out, or know why, or what for, or so on or so forth, kicks in, kick it out. Kick it out.' -- Chetanananda, in an April 21, 1993, talk.

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Swift says she felt numb and indifferent. People outside the ashram sometimes asked her whether she had a feeling or opinion about anything.
She had overcome the anger of her old life. The only thing that moved her now was her devotion to the spiritual practice.
In the spring of 1993, disciples lined up amid snow flurries to pass hundreds of boxes out of the Cambridge ashram to trucks. They watched a crane hoist a stone Buddha from the ashram over the street.
Swift joined the move to Portland. Wherever the swami went, she would go, too.


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You can reach Richard Read at 503-294-5135 or richread@aol.com.

Peace and lentils

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:33:13 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: today:sex with a guru
Message:
Thanks for the post. I went to site yesterday or day before and then emailed them about EPO. I am very offended that M would have sex with devotees. It is horrific, actually, because they are not using or relinquishing the same discretion as they would with anyone else.

And of course, the guru is not honest. That part where the boyfriend confronts the guru and the bastard has the nerve to respond that she made a pass at him that he couldn't refuse. errggg

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:42:37 (EDT)
From: Brian and Katie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO
Message:
In March of 1997, Richard Wallace found a few skimpy webpages put online by some ex-devotees of Maharaji. Invited to contribute his own Journey, he wrote: 'I looked at this web page. Nice! I hope it takes off.' Those few pages and Journeys, along with Richard's expressed hopes, eventually became the starting point of EPO's current content.

Nine months after Richard posted this, Brian and Katie took over running the website. It's now 43 months later. And EPO is not only still online, it has also 'taken off' beyond the hopes of any of us.

Now it's time for Brian and Katie to take off. JHB has agreed to take over the job of webmaster of EPO, and Jean-Michel is going to continue to put content online. We've spoken to Scott about it, and he's assured us that JHB will have his full support. He will certainly have our full support, and we both hope that he will also have yours.

Joe Whalen as agreed to serve as the US billing contact, and to act as a 'clearing house' for contributions toward the server and domain charges. This will simplify the process of converting any donated funds to USD, which the server requires for payment.

John is currently able to receive email sent to 'jhb@ex-premie.org', and Jean-Michel can be reached via 'jm@ex-premie.org'. Mail sent to webmaster@ex-premie.org will be switched over so that John will be receiving it, and the account brian@ex-premie.org will be closed.

For those who want to send personal email to Brian or Katie in the future, our email addresses are:

brian@tigerriver.com
mishkat@gateway.net

Now for the acknowledgements -

First, our sincere and profound thanks go to John Brauns for committing to take on the job of EPO webmaster, and for insuring that ex-premie.org will stay online. We think he will do a great job - probably far better than we ever did!

We also want to convey our thanks and appreciation to Jean-Michel, who, as well as being the fastest page-maker in the Western World, has also been a good friend.

Sir David and his band of FA's also deserve accolades for being ready to take responsibility when needed.

We would also like to express thanks to Scott Perry for his trust in us, and for his consistent help when needed; to Joe Whalen, for his friendship and his help with logistics; and to all the FA's for contributing their time and effort to help keep the forum on-line.

Katie would like to extend her personal thanks to the people in the lilac room, and to the women of the Moon Lodge, who helped keep her sane.

And of course, we want to thank each and every one of you who has contributed to the ex-premie.org site - whether by submitting a Journeys entry, writing content, donating money, or simply by talking about your own experiences on the forum.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:12:30 (EDT)
From: Richard Wallace
Email: rbw@indra.com
To: Brian and Katie
Subject: Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO
Message:
I just wanted to say thanks to all the people who put EPO and the Forums together and maintained them. When I posted my Journal entry I had no idea this site would have such an impact. When I first searched online back in 1996 or '97 for any discussion about Maharji, the only person I found initially was Jim Heller. This is all quite amazing to me. I hadn't looked in here from 1997 until just recently so you can imagine my surprise at how this whole thing has grown. I really thought people had made their minds up long ago about M&K and the discussion would die out fairly quickly.

I think it's funny that here in Denver, headquarters for DLM in the '70's, very very few people around here have any idea who M was. If you mention 'the fat kid guru' a few people remember, but that's about it.

I hope this discussion continues to be an antidote to the M cult long into the future.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 23:15:42 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Brian and Katie
Subject: Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO
Message:
Katie and Brian,

Thanks for all of your hard work behind the scenes and personal contributions on the forum(s). It's another turn of the big cosmic wheel for you and I wish you fulfillment and clarity.


Here's looking at Katie and Brian.


Richard who still thinks getting married was a pretty flaky excuse for missing Latvian Lunch in Seattle

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:28:50 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Brian and Katie
Subject: Hail, hail, the gang's still here
Message:
Stunning run, Brian, Katie, John Brauns, J-M, Sir Dave, and everyone. Thanks to Joe, and and thanks to everyone who's ever contributed or lurked.

Best wishes to you all, and let's keep it rolling folks!

peace and love, Francesca

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 20:37:47 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Brian and Katie
Subject: Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO
Message:
Thank you both. I don't know how you managed until now, but I know it must have been a great effort to do so. Well now you don't have to be the landlords anymore.

Be good and take care.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 20:03:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Brian and Katie
Subject: Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO
Message:
Dear Katie and Brian,
I am glad you found someone you, and most of us here trust (I think anyway) and I for one think you've done a great job over all this time and I just want to thank you for all your time, effort and trouble.
Welcome and thanks to John and JM (I've been thinking of you a lot lately), and Sir Dave and the rest of the FA's. I know I'm not around much but maybe someday I will have more time and be around more but either way I support the existance of EPO and all the forums that have sprung up around it.
Love,
Robyn, a pround member of the Moon Lodge :)
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:53:26 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Announcing the new Webmaster of EPO
Message:
Thanks Robyn !!!
I'm not posting very much these days, but beware !!! I'm still around !!! Quite busy with my job and some other things.

I'm going to take care of those pages on EPO ......

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:31:21 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: what is the Moon Lodge
Message:
Just curious. Sounds interesting! :C)

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 07:04:01 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: what is the Moon Lodge
Message:
Dear Francesca,
The Moon Lodge is a place, in Native American cultures, as I understand it, where the women went to spend the time of their menstration. We use it to define our women's email group as we are a support system for each other. We 'met' on the forum but some of us don't write here much or at all anymore.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:55:57 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Robyn
Subject: Gotcha
Message:
Thanks, Katie told me what it was too, but not the Native American part. That's a nice name. And yes, sometimes it's hard to post here, especially stuff that is too personal. Kind of like running around naked on the freeway. Not only revealing, but you might get hit by a truck. In this case, troll.

love, F

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:07:02 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: A beautiful transfer of power
Message:
Governments of the world, eat your hearts out.
I trust Briatie, er I mean Katian, Lennono, have a wonderful extended honeymoon and come back and post soon.

Sounds like they may be offline for a while but I cant imagine them
leaving for long with the forum as fun as it is.

Now that they are off the hotseat, they can come back and post from
'that place'.

Thanks so much for all you have done.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 17:47:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: All
Subject: Attn: EXCITED-You asked me to email you (OT)
Message:
Hi, please check above for my email. I look for off-line discussion with refarding Gold's book 'The Lord as Guru' and other related stuff
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:47:13 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Typo: EXITED-You asked me to email you (OT)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 16:27:57 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Forum 6.
Message:
Hi Dave,

Having been out of the picture for a while, due to Acts of God etc, I've missed a few episodes of the Forum Soap, and have a some questions about F6, which you may or may not have answers to.

Anyway, here's my questions.

1. Are you going to get anybody to help you?

2. What sort of stuff do you think should be booted off? I assume publishing personal threats, personal details that individuals don't want making public (addresses and phone nos for example). Anything else? What about premies who are are nasty and aggressive? Will you kick their posts off? As you know, some of them have been quite vindictive and offensive in the past.

4. Is anyone going to do the archiving and will these still be available at EPO?

5. Under what circumstances will you ban posters?

6. How do you feel about doing the Forum Admin?

7. All the best in the new role Dave.

Anth the 8.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:30:38 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Forum 6.
Message:
1. Are you going to get anybody to help you?

Yes, as and when it's needed. I'm playing it by ear. I am just the webmaster. I've put the thing together.

2. What sort of stuff do you think should be booted off? I assume publishing personal threats, personal details that individuals don't want making public (addresses and phone nos for example). Anything else? What about premies who are are nasty and aggressive? Will you kick their posts off? As you know, some of them have been quite vindictive and offensive in the past.

All of the above can be booted off. Offensive posts will be deleted and people blocked but only if its of benefit to the whole group.

4. Is anyone going to do the archiving and will these still be available at EPO?

I've got a volunteer to do the archiving.

5. Under what circumstances will you ban posters?

Only if it's generally agreed that someone needs to be blocked, not because they are a premie but because they are writing grossly offensive posts.

6. How do you feel about doing the Forum Admin?

Actually I feel remarkably detatched! I don't expect to be doing it for long. In the end, someone else can take over because I've only wanted to keep the show on the road when it nearly careered off the cliff. I'm an ideas man, me. Can't be bothered with day to day jobs.

I hope to convey perhaps some of my own realisations by my limited input into this site. I feel that now that the wizard behind the curtain has been revealed, there is little else to do. Personally I'm over it. However, people need this place to resolve things and there's also the aspect that we all have a common background, even though for me it was only during the seventies.

I hope good can come out of this forum. I don't want to hurt Maharaji or premies but I would like to increase the level of understanding, for all concerned, premies and ex-premies.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 04:18:00 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks Dave.
Message:
Sounds good to me. Enjoy the ride.

Anth I've finished the interview, can I have a couple of pictures now please?

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 17:59:42 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Additional questions
Message:
4B. Will the old Forum 5 Archives still be maintained for reference?

4C. If so, will your superb Search Engine still do the work of finding a past post?

9. To JHB: Why was there no warning and FV unceremonialy shut down?

What I would have posted under your 'terminal' thread was, thanks for your efforts as well as all of the FA's, Jean-Michel, Katie and Brian. And thank you to all who posted there in integrity.

Forum 5 is dead, long live Forum 6!

Richard

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:43:29 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Additional questions
Message:
Well, ex-premie.org archives are still being maintained as usual. My search engine is a bit out of date, I'm afraid. There is a problem in that there's a limit to its index capacity. It is a free search engine after all.

By the way, are these colours OK?

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 22:56:24 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Colors (colours)
Message:
Color-wise, it looks fine. As a graphic designer, I prefer the basic white 'paper' but will get used to this mocha latté background. The type font is another issue. All type including displayed message field appears in serif type font. This seems to be forum specific as I have my default font set to san serif (Ariel) but all type here defaults to serif. I find san serif easier to read than serif.

Also, my posts here have no paragraph breaks, do I have to insert a line break code for that?

Richard

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 23:39:17 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Line breaks
Message:
I figured out that the paragraph breaks don't appear in the preview but they do in the actual post.
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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 18:05:05 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Additional questions
Message:
9. To JHB: Why was there no warning and FV unceremonialy shut down?

Richard,

I thought there had been lots of warnings, but then I've been steeped in this issue for a while:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 18:07:29 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Additional questions
Message:
Last I heard, FV was good until the end of the month - but not to quibble. Hopefully you're not so steeped you got bitter.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 18:20:14 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Additional questions
Message:
Richard,

Although I couldn't predict exactly how it would happen, what has happened on was broadly what I wanted, which is the separation of EPO and the forum. No, I was never bitter although I'm a little sad that a couple of people I very much liked and respected may have turned against me.

John.

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Date: Sun, Jul 15, 2001 at 19:50:11 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Additional questions
Message:
Hi John
I never realised that you were the FA of F5 so would like to send you a heartfelt round of applause for all the work you did and the GREAT facility you offered.
Francis Bacon (the first) said 'late thanks are ever best'
This place looks pretty classy for a fresh beginning.
And sorry you got a little burnt in your capacity. It's always the people who put in the selfless action get the stick.
Best
Tim
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