Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Jul 23, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


miraclelurker -:- The Owl -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:07:56 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Good one, don't know why . . . -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 01:29:36 (EDT)
__ scram -:- Owl -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:42:12 (EDT)
__ j schwa -:- Re: The Owl -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:29:20 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- Re: The Owl -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:24:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- to Janet -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:09:23 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- No call for that Janet -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:48:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: No call for that Janet -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:41:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Almost right -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:55:47 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Sorry, I just did -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:23:26 (EDT)
__ mayo -:- don't respond to this person -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:36:16 (EDT)
__ __ Steve m -:- Curse in Miracles right Seline ! nt -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:06:43 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- Re: don't respond to this person -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:27:19 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- A bit heavy, Mayo! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:07:38 (EDT)

Jethro -:- Does this seem familiar? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 06:46:19 (EDT)
__ sivan -:- Re: Does this seem familiar? -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:47:16 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- YUP! it does [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:38:25 (EDT)
__ such -:- r.e. SF exes:18 times event baited! -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:19:35 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: I had no idea! -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:49:55 (EDT)

Joey -:- A week-end chuckle :) -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:01:22 (EDT)
__ such -:- our kids: 'yeah, my dad was in a cult'! [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:12:06 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: our kids: 'yeah, my dad was in a cult'! -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 15:53:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:42:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:55:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Gina -:- Re: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:53:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ sivan -:- Re: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:55:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- that is sad -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:36:28 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- What a guy! thanks! [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:10:38 (EDT)

Larkin -:- 4 absent friends - an appreciation.. -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 16:11:26 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Given this man a Nobel Prize. (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:43:46 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Ex-Premies links at EPO -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 04:37:41 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- thanks Larkin -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 17:41:05 (EDT)
__ __ Carol -:- Me too, thankyou -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 02:34:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- things are well thank you -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:37:35 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- posted by Steve at LG:money diversions -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 15:02:26 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- ** J-M - A keeper ** (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 07:35:11 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 22:35:57 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:00:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- SMITH'S TRANSPARENT UNDERWARE -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:36:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: SMITH'S TRANSPARENT UNDERWARE -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:16:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: SMITH'S TRANSPARENT UNDERWARE -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:49:27 (EDT)
__ Steve -:- Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 18:23:17 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:12:50 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Well said, Steve!!! BEST of FORUM -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:33:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ Steve -:- Re: Well said, Steve!!! BEST of FORUM -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 16:50:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- How did I know you were ... -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:15:28 (EDT)

David -:- Anon article posted here by request -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:09 (EDT)
__ Bryn -:- Dear Mr.Anon -article-person -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 08:00:42 (EDT)
__ bill -:- the love issue -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:03:12 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- Re: the love issue -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:07:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Re: the love issue -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 21:05:48 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Re: the love issue -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:53:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- I dont know how to [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 13:48:42 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Well, aren't you special? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 16:04:29 (EDT)
__ mayo -:- What a load of ol bollocks -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 07:36:31 (EDT)
__ Catweasel -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 03:35:23 (EDT)
__ __ sILVIA -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:52:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:17:20 (EDT)
__ Isabella -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 18:52:46 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:33:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:22:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:42:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:33:46 (EDT)
__ __ David -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 19:43:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Isabella -:- Who do we love? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 09:42:49 (EDT)
__ Carlos -:- OTS, I'm still a premie, too. I recently -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 16:25:06 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- Re: OTS, I'm still a premie, too. I recently -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:11:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carlos -:- OTS raised the 'unconditional love' -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 23:12:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: OTS raised the 'unconditional love' -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:04:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- 1/25/73, Parlokanand, Grand Rapids, Mi. I was -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:22:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Imagine there's no Heaven -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:19:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Always apreciate your perspective, Sir -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:28:22 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Thanks to OTS -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 15:01:51 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Mata Ji is 26 year old information -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:54:06 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- Welcome OTS -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:09:26 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Some of the people -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:24:20 (EDT)
__ __ Richard II -:- Re: Some of the people -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:30:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Hang on -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:34:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Who do ya love? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:50:45 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- and Tiny was an abusive sadistic pig -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:14:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Suzie Bai Whitten -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 15:54:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- That's correct -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 05:28:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Would suzy bai care to post on EPO? nt -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:54:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- screen writer? we got the material! [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 13:59:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re:we got the material! Got THAT right, such [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:27:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- let's get Suzy bai to write a screenplay...nt -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:03:33 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Candi McNary -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:37:35 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- Re: Anon article posted here by request -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:19:21 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Ahem, the same old assumptions -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:56:25 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Well summed up, Gerry (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 16:13:38 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Jerry, I hear where you're coming from -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:38:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- go Francesca -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:59:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: go Francesca -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:03:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I do remember his BDay -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:39:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I do remember his BDay -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:51:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- Re: I do remember his BDay -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:55:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Silvia had more info -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:01:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Silvia had more info -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:38:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- Re: Silvia had more info -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:57:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- we can start with Stonor's cartoon -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:15:51 (EDT)
__ __ deborah -:- Re: Ahem, the same old assumptions -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:26:41 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- I agree, gerry -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:18:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I agree, Joey -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:29:28 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- PS -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:13:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: PS -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:31:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- Re: PS -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 03:05:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: PS -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:32:13 (EDT)

gerry the armed and ready -:- Annie git yer guns... OT -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 11:53:45 (EDT)
__ Passing Gas -:- hey Gerry the REAL reason -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:42:00 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Check homicide figures elsewhere..(nt) -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:57:00 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- How severe are the penalties -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:37:14 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: How severe are the penalties -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:48:19 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Annie git yer guns... OT -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 11:58:17 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Annie git yer guns... OT -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:41:30 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: Annie git yer guns... OT -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:19:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Annie git yer guns... OT -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 09:41:45 (EDT)

bill-July 19 1966, old man -:- rawat died slipping on soap in shower nt -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:40:20 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- To HAPPY please respond -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 03:39:18 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- It was POISONED Soap ! [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 21:58:46 (EDT)
__ As true as your -:- DNA/Claudia theory NT -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:42:53 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- I have rawat dna, get some navlara stuff. [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 21:42:02 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:07:56 (EDT)
From: miraclelurker
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Owl
Message:
http://ag.arizona.edu/~brussell/fable.html
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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 01:29:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: miraclelurker
Subject: Good one, don't know why . . .
Message:
... some people are giving you a hard time. Oh well. You showed up on the other forum at a bad time. You never did get to answer my other post, but I'm not going to repeat myself, in case you're not coming back to read the responses.

--f

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:42:12 (EDT)
From: scram
Email: None
To: miraclelurker
Subject: Owl
Message:
SCRAM!
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:29:20 (EDT)
From: j schwa
Email: None
To: miraclelurker
Subject: Re: The Owl
Message:
http://ag.arizona.edu/~brussell/fable.html


---

what the hell is this? can't you read? if you want to put a link in your message for others to go view, it says clear as day below this input box where you are to put the url and the name you want to call the link.

wake up. you're not at forum 5 anymore. this board works differently. take the time to glance around and learn how it works, okay?

how stupid can you be????

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:24:01 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: j schwa
Subject: Re: The Owl
Message:
wow! what IS up your butt today? So what if the person didn't hyperlink, it's not that big a deal.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to highlight copy and paste a URL

What I want to know is who posted that link, and why that address.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:09:23 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: to Janet
Message:
I apologize for getting irritated at your post. I spend all my work week computing and so am very sensitive to novices who may not know how to do something and I cringe when I hear one of my coworkers be harsh to these people. So I was doing same here but did not mean to be so harsh to you.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:48:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: j schwa
Subject: No call for that Janet
Message:
A friendly reminder about the fantastic capabilities of this forum would have sufficed.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:41:48 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: No call for that Janet
Message:
I'm sorry if the wording came out rather harsh. I got annoyed, because when I first saw the screen, there was nothing visible in the text box. I Thought the poster had left it blank. It compounded the time and impatience I ended up spending going from screen to screen, looking for what on earth they wanted us to see. Sometimes I think people just don't LOOK, when it is right there in front of their eyes. me included, i suppose..
Sir dave, let me ask you, since you know how all the bells and whistles here work:
if a poster wants to direct readers to another place by link, do they just put the URL in the box below the text that SAYS 'link URL' and the reader only need click on the box to be taken to the page referred to? do i understand that correctly?
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:55:47 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: janet
Subject: Almost right
Message:
They put the URL in the Link URL box and the link name in the Link Name box. That's all that's needed. Then the link name will become hyperlinked to the URL and people can click on it to go there.

This is all explained in the Forum help which is linked on the blue rectangle near the top of the forum.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:23:26 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: miraclelurker
Subject: Sorry, I just did
Message:
and I like the story, miraclelurker. Well made point.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:36:16 (EDT)
From: mayo
Email: None
To: miraclelurker
Subject: don't respond to this person
Message:
This angerous individual precipitated the breakup of Forum with a seemingly innocent post about 'A Course in Miracles'.

This dngerous post caused Jim, Katie, Brian, JHB et al to all finally freak out and marked the end of an era, a time of innocennce and devotion to the cause of mercilessly bashing anyone and everyone who disagreed with anything at all.

No. Miraclelurker, you are a fiend and must be stopped at all costs.

Mayo

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:06:43 (EDT)
From: Steve m
Email: None
To: mayo
Subject: Curse in Miracles right Seline ! nt
Message:
This angerous individual precipitated the breakup of Forum with a seemingly innocent post about 'A Course in Miracles'.

This dngerous post caused Jim, Katie, Brian, JHB et al to all finally freak out and marked the end of an era, a time of innocennce and devotion to the cause of mercilessly bashing anyone and everyone who disagreed with anything at all.

No. Miraclelurker, you are a fiend and must be stopped at all costs.

Mayo


---

nt

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:27:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: mayo
Subject: Re: don't respond to this person
Message:
Course In Miracles is a cult! I know of one good friend who got into it and got out. Our friendship was almost destroyed while she was into it, it was all she could talk about. And the same mindset, an abstracton of experience, lack of individual responsibility, groupthink.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:07:38 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: mayo
Subject: A bit heavy, Mayo!
Message:
Mayo,

It just happened to be in that thread that the final confrontation between Jim and Katie too place. I don't think you can blame MiracleLurker for this:-)

John

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 06:46:19 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Does this seem familiar?
Message:
Here is a post from a former devotee of Gurajinda Singh who is also Satguru and Perfect master of the time.

More 'gems' from the South Central USA Newsletter:

_______________________________

'As you may have already heard, there appears to be a SLIGHT possibility that Baba Ji might make
a brief stop in Texas to be with us sometime this summer. To prepare for such a visit, even though the likelihood is small, I have asked secretaries in Austin, Dallas, and Houston (the most likely cities) to obtain information regarding suitable meeting places. A telephone tree for our regional area has also been set up, so that satsangis and seekers may be informed as soon as possible, if he should come.
(Name withheld) heads up this project. I would like to emphasize again that there is only a SLIGHT chance of such a visit. Even if he does not come, we should be happy that he has even been thinking about such a possibility!'

____________________________________

So GS is putting these people through all this anticipation and work on the off chance that he might decide to show up. People are jumping through hoops as we speak. No advance warning. The
telephone tree is set up to call people so they can drop whatever they are doing and go to be 'graced' by his wonderfulness.

This is really pathetic.

This shows what an inconsiderate jerk Gurinder is. How about giving them a date in advance so they can prepare and then actually showing up? What a concept. It is called R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-I-T-Y. It is called C-O-N-S-I-D-E-R-A-T-I-O-N for one's fellow human beings.

God incarnate? He doesn't even display basic human decency.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:47:16 (EDT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yam82
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Does this seem familiar?
Message:
Here is a post from a former devotee of Gurajinda Singh who is also Satguru and Perfect master of the time.

More 'gems' from the South Central USA Newsletter:

_______________________________

'As you may have already heard, there appears to be a SLIGHT possibility that Baba Ji might make
a brief stop in Texas to be with us sometime this summer. To prepare for such a visit, even though the likelihood is small, I have asked secretaries in Austin, Dallas, and Houston (the most likely cities) to obtain information regarding suitable meeting places. A telephone tree for our regional area has also been set up, so that satsangis and seekers may be informed as soon as possible, if he should come.
(Name withheld) heads up this project. I would like to emphasize again that there is only a SLIGHT chance of such a visit. Even if he does not come, we should be happy that he has even been thinking about such a possibility!'

____________________________________

So GS is putting these people through all this anticipation and work on the off chance that he might decide to show up. People are jumping through hoops as we speak. No advance warning. The
telephone tree is set up to call people so they can drop whatever they are doing and go to be 'graced' by his wonderfulness.

This is really pathetic.

This shows what an inconsiderate jerk Gurinder is. How about giving them a date in advance so they can prepare and then actually showing up? What a concept. It is called R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-I-T-Y. It is called C-O-N-S-I-D-E-R-A-T-I-O-N for one's fellow human beings.

God incarnate? He doesn't even display basic human decency.


---

God incarnate? One thing m did do for me is to make me REALISE this is a crok of shit- and every other master before or since is a load of crap. I dont believe any human knows more of the intrinsic than another ( but I dont even trust my own belief- but I trust my disbelief)) Cant help my peripheral interest because I am just so amazed to have been so entrenched.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:38:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: YUP! it does [nt]
Message:
zzz
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:19:35 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: r.e. SF exes:18 times event baited!
Message:
Here is a post from a former devotee of Gurajinda Singh who is also Satguru and Perfect master of the time.

More 'gems' from the South Central USA Newsletter:

_______________________________

'As you may have already heard, there appears to be a SLIGHT possibility that Baba Ji might make
a brief stop in Texas to be with us sometime this summer. To prepare for such a visit, even though the likelihood is small, I have asked secretaries in Austin, Dallas, and Houston (the most likely cities) to obtain information regarding suitable meeting places. A telephone tree for our regional area has also been set up, so that satsangis and seekers may be informed as soon as possible, if he should come.
(Name withheld) heads up this project. I would like to emphasize again that there is only a SLIGHT chance of such a visit. Even if he does not come, we should be happy that he has even been thinking about such a possibility!'

____________________________________

So GS is putting these people through all this anticipation and work on the off chance that he might decide to show up. People are jumping through hoops as we speak. No advance warning. The
telephone tree is set up to call people so they can drop whatever they are doing and go to be 'graced' by his wonderfulness.

This is really pathetic.

This shows what an inconsiderate jerk Gurinder is. How about giving them a date in advance so they can prepare and then actually showing up? What a concept. It is called R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-I-T-Y. It is called C-O-N-S-I-D-E-R-A-T-I-O-N for one's fellow human beings.

God incarnate? He doesn't even display basic human decency.


---

reminds me of what happened in San Francisco. premies prepared for him '18 times' [quote from Sharon Stokke] futilely, because capricious m. and the tour coordinators teased and tricked them SF premies about megalomaniac m. coming.

Years of preparation + thousands of hours of lots of people's wasted energies -- better spent elsewhere.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:49:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: I had no idea!
Message:
How did all of this fit-in to your reality or belief system at the time? 18 times is unbelievable.

Bet the bugger NEVER thought twice about whether this shit would come back to haunt him.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:01:22 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A week-end chuckle :)
Message:
I'm not sure if this has been posted on the forum but hope you guys find this as funny and cute as I did. It comes from the 'Cult Observer' Vol. 18, No.1, 2001.
*********************************************

Jamie Kennedy, 23, the great-grandson of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard and a nationally recognized 'slam poet' who lives in Mission Viejo, California, says his mother and ex-girlfriend have been visited by Scientology agents asking about references to Scientology in his poems and his decision to appear at an anti-Scientology benefit last November. 'They can't shut me up,' said Kennedy. 'I've made a career of not giving a f
---
.'
Billed as the 'Hellspawn Leprechaun,' Kennedy shares his great grandfather's red hair and in -your-face attitude.
'Genetically, I think we share some traits. In high-school, a psychiatrist asked me if I had a history of mental illness in my family. I said, 'Well, my great grandfather was a cult leader.'

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:12:06 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: our kids: 'yeah, my dad was in a cult'! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 15:53:37 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: our kids: 'yeah, my dad was in a cult'!
Message:
...and they'll also be able to add:

'...but at least he got out and didn't die in one.'

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:42:33 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are...
Message:
Joey:

today is my son Dave's 26th birthday. Hope one day soon we'll be speaking and seeing each other again. can't help it -- but have been feeling so sad right now...

peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:55:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are...
Message:
Hope you get to see him and speak soon.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:53:35 (EDT)
From: Gina
Email: all-yall@mindspring.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are...
Message:
Such, so sorry that you're feeling so sad.
I hope for you that 'one day soon' comes very soon.
Respect and love,
Gina
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:55:10 (EDT)
From: sivan
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday,Dave,wherever you are...
Message:
that is so sad, why did it happen?
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:36:28 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sivan
Subject: that is sad
Message:
I think there is a natural seperation period that goes on with parents and their adult children. Mine were barely in touch during thier early twenties. In some ways i think this is healthy or at least preferable to a clingy unhealthy neediness or either side.
But hopefully it all comes back to gether. I wonder how many children resent their parents running off all over the globe to see M and spending money that was needed at home?
I've talked with my kids about this. They didn't understand and were angry for a while but say they are not angry anymore and not at all interested in googoo. S
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:10:38 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: What a guy! thanks! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 16:11:26 (EDT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: 4 absent friends - an appreciation..
Message:
Thanks, Katie and Brian
While feelings get heated
Some guidelines get broken
And admins unseated..
As the forum gets fractious
And factions start forming..
Some sulky and silent
Some battlement-storming..
We’ll e’er yet remember
Your efforts unfailing
Through years of hard labour
To keep this ship sailing..

And thanks too, James Heller
They’re missing you badly
You were never the fellah
To suffer fools glady
Tho’ some were offended
And others enchanted
All probably realise
they took you for granted..
(But if you’re not back
Ere’ the summer is over
I’ll eat my own faeces
And pray to Jehovah..)

And cheers to you Bazza
Your exit was drastic
It’ll never be said
You weren’t enthusiastic
(If somewhat untamed
For a duty FA..;))
But to get the hell out
Is a small price to pay
For the fun of chase
That you clearly enjoyed
(We need an FA here,
If you’re unemployed…)

But remember the cult
And those smothered resentments?
- Those synchronised smiles
Of eternal contentment..?
Well, we’re warm-blooded humans
It’s cool to give vent!
- Tell the truth as YOU see it
‘til passions are spent..
Not ‘The Truth’ as delivered
By The Golden One
- Come back you dear bastards
Let's have some more fun!

[last lines edited since originally posted]
[ Larkin ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:43:46 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Given this man a Nobel Prize. (nt)
Message:
ah rate lar.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 04:37:41 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Ex-Premies links at EPO
Message:
Please submit your website heere if you want to have it linked at EPO links' page

Ex-premies Links
[ Ex-premies links ]

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 17:41:05 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: thanks Larkin
Message:
Things will settle down. I think all those people know how we feel, but that was nice. Breaks are good too. I know, I just took one for a few hours :)
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 02:34:12 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Me too, thankyou
Message:
And...Hi Selene! I just popped in after a break of many months. I haven't heard from any of my old premie friends anymore (I guess I got too far from the fold!). I haven't had any of this on my mind in quite awhile, not since I saw M when he was in Portland earlier this year. Looks like things have changed a bit here. Hope all is well for you and yours.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:37:35 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: things are well thank you
Message:
I've been doing a lot of writing, playing iwth my baby (he's 3 now) and have generally mellowed out a lot.

As for 'The Fold' the farther away the better I say.

Good to hear from you.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 15:02:26 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions
Message:
'Carlos I don't think you're capable of believing
anything at all which is indicating that your 'Dada ' is anything less than you think he is.

I've said things here from my own experiance entirely and been accused of lying. I was a full time employee of maharaji for some years and have testified that premie money given for propogation was used to finance his whims and extravagent lifestyle. All I get back is that I'm a bitter liar.

I testify that everything Maha spent during my time in his office was paid for from fundraising for propogation I mean everything. Birthday presents for his kids of 45000$ everything. Cars galore ...etc etc

But then again I'm a bitter ex so it must all be lies... ??????

Steve Mulley Residence gofor, mahraji's office employee, West london community co- ordinator, Residence security, Mahraji's escort driver, Darshan security, Aspirant coordinator, Maharaji's bringer of breakfast , friend of Maha's cook. Ex mug'

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 07:35:11 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: ** J-M - A keeper ** (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 22:35:57 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions
Message:
I believe you sucha: We don't need to be great mathematicians for taht one. Where is the money if not around him? David Smith has two transparent underware. MAHARIACHI IS SUCH A CREEP: SHAME ON YOU FATSO! SEE YOU IN COURT SOON.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:00:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions
Message:
Hiiii Silvia,

I didn't look at the name before I read the post but as soon as I read the part: David Smith has two transparent underware.

I knew it was you. You are so funny.

Deborah, no longer member of MAHARIACHI band.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:36:28 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: SMITH'S TRANSPARENT UNDERWARE
Message:
hahahahahaha is the true. The premie who washed them told me, the poor DEVOTEE/ToeKisser guy....

Be glad you are NOT in 'the band'. Mariachi transform people in very strange 'individuals', individuals between quotes because we both know well that K as taught by mariachi does not make you more than just a sheep, marching under the same song of a dispersonalizing painful trip...of AWAKENING...that you have become simply another cult member.

I try to see the joke and still can find it...I detest his dishonesty and feel deeply offended by mariachi, still!

VIVA LA LIBERTAD!

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:16:43 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: SMITH'S TRANSPARENT UNDERWARE
Message:
Oh Silvia, it's good to read your posts.

Poor David and his translucent expired underware. God! I never even thought about premies washing instructor's underware as service. What else did you learn? Let's gossip!

'NO. We're not in a cult' shhhhhheeeeeeeeesssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:49:27 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: SMITH'S TRANSPARENT UNDERWARE
Message:
:)))) What is a cult? ooops.... Underwares? The guy was always such an ass with me, and then he would have a spur of niceness, trying to patch all up. Always lecturing me, braking my balls. Always telling me I was not wanted in my service, but there was nobody else to do it! hahahahaha...I hate it those days: What a lost of time. Experience my ass! That was insanity, believe me.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 18:23:17 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions
Message:
This conversation is part of an ongoing discussion about the separation of money collected for propogation from ordinary premies and the money given as gifts to maha for his personal use. Carlos says that it was always separate and from my experience I disagree.

I spent time in maha's office set up. Whilst I can't prove that the payments for the maintenance of all his goodies was coming from ordinary donations we all knew at the time that it was so. I worked 12 hrs a day most days for nothing . I still have to repay the government for that time spent because I made no contribution for my pension or health. I can say forsure that all the expenses for us guys at OGM were not payed for from M's personal funds but that it all came from ordinary donations. As I mentioned previously we all had new cars and lived in the most expensive area of the country in a massive house. We had full time cooks , housekeepers and premies doing repairs etc. When we went to programs we were accomodated in decent hotels and ate out in the best restaurants. I spent a lot of time as a gofor doing such crucial service as collecting M's croisants for breakfast from a bakery 50 miles from the residence and getting a few samosas from an Indian takeaway also 50 miles away.

We had great fun shopping for our Lord, hand made shoes , shirts etc all from the same shops that the Royal family uses.

Nothing we did had anything at all to do with propogation but all of us guys were there to just ensure that he and his family's every desire was catered for.

I resent being called on these issues by premies who were not there. If there are any premies who were in OGM who refute what i say then that would have more credibility. When premies who were x rated around M come forward and deny that what Dettmers and Donner say , using their own names then I'll listen .

This Guru who never wanted to be a leader and is only a helpful meditation teacher allowed me to give years in service , sacrifice education, career , relationships, financial security. I didn't do it for a Joe Blow I did it for the highest manifestation of God to ever walk the earth and I really fucking resent the revisionism.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:12:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Re: posted by Steve at LG:money diversions
Message:
Good post Steve. Having abused our well-intended desire to serve a Lord as Guru, he deserves to hear no less. OUR extended adolescence was not a 70's self-inflected mistake. Many of the 70's seekers I meet today entertained the Indian-exotic mysteries without joining a CULT.
The severity of M's manipulation for his own egotistic megalomaniac lifestyle is something the bastard wishes would go away. This is the type of stuff that any consciousable member of society would find hineous. Ruining decades of trusting, loving, worshipping fellow human beings is not a little mistake.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:33:16 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Well said, Steve!!! BEST of FORUM
Message:
Dear Steve,

I was not around the Maha closely, but I respect the integrity of those that were who have come forward. My husband received Knowledge from Michael Donner. Michael Donner has named the people (Jeff Grossberg, Joe Natter and others) who he says would agree with him on some of the points he's made. One of our best friends is a premie. Our premie friend has a close friend who is an ex. This ex used to spend every day at the residence doing direct service and left the whole thing over the sordid details of finances and the way things were managed back then. My premie friend trusts this ex (I used to know him also and he is a person of integrity). Why shouldn't I??

The people who come on this Forum and try to refute Donner and Dettmers and others PAMs had nowhere NEAR the 24/7 access that these people had. Going up to the res occasionally and having personal contact and interviews does not tell the real story.

In another system (Tibetan Buddhism) I became an insider and was privy to the anger of a teacher. He was very kind much of the time, and, I believe, really wanted the best for his students. But he would never have expressed his anger and wrath to students that were on the perifery. It was only when a student was more committed, working with him personally, and perhaps then it was unavoidable, that such things would come out. Because of the system of never saying anything bad about a guru, even people who walked away or found another teacher are supposed to never criticize him. Those who were closer or lived at the center at least felt free to compare 'notes,' because we weren't telling each other anything the other didn't already know. The point is that unless you get to a certain level of closeness, or are around 24/7, you can't really say. I found kowtowing to him when he was angry, especially in such a traditional guru-disciple relationship, to be abusive. It is only in those wacky Hindu and Buddhist stories where you accept such treatment by teachers and masters, and of course, the revisionism is that M is not leaning on that tradition. And of course, the analogy ends here because my former teacher didn't want people to spend much money on his own welfare, and even refused to have a wife or family so that the center would not be burdened with the expense.

So I hear you Steve. I'm sick of it, but I believe, as I said to Donner somewhere below, that you guys are lambasted even more than the rest of us for being the bearers of bad news. Talk about a hate club! The premies really have one going when they throw verbal stones at you and other and call you liars. Thanks for being brave. Also wouldn't blame you if you just tossed in the towel and laid low.

best wishes,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 16:50:18 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Well said, Steve!!! BEST of FORUM
Message:
Thanks Francesca,

How did you know I was thinking of throwing in the towel and keeping a low profile ? Actually I'm definitely thinking of not talking to premies anymore on forums. I don't think I have the temperement. I'm not used to being called a liar as that is absolutely the last thing that anyone who knows me would say. In fact I'm well known for being brutally honest verging on tactless !

I think if I do post I'll come here, I do find a huge gulf in honest examination of issues between premies and exes..

Honesty , integrity and truth tables.... Premies 1 expremies 100

Best wishes F See you in the lilac room sometime

Steve

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:15:28 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: How did I know you were ...
Message:
... thinking of throwing in the towel and keeping a low profile? Because I've been doing the same myself, after being called a liar and MSU (making shit up), and making up things out of 'whole cloth,' and every other ding, dang thing by people in a state of denial. You've gotten way worse treatment.

I can handle premies who say, 'yes, it's true, or at least I have no reason to disbelieve you because so many others have said the same, and I'm not denying any of it, but I'm continuing on for now,' or something like that. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Anyway, I just can't keep my mouth shut but I AM going to limit my posts to premies. That's why the few times I've gone to LG and been tempted to post, I've told myself, 'no, no and no'!!! I'll stick with the premies I know off the Forums, who would NEVER come to an ex-premie Forum to fight it out.

And yes, I do frequent the lilac room. Even the shade is lovely, so I'll see 'ya there.

bests, Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:09 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
I was emailed this article today by a premie who has asked me to post it here for you to read. Here it is:

TO: Your Readers
FROM: OTS
SUBJECT: Shades of Gray
DATE: July 21, 2001

Warning: This is long, but you all appear to be very bored, so here goes -- my first, last and only post here.

About two years I ago, I stumbled onto EPO and was shocked; hit the BACK key and vowed never to go back to the site. (You guessed it, a premie). I’ve kept up the “company line” for the past two years, you know, something like, “Hey, if you’re not into it, fine, but get a life, move on.” But, “thanks” to Pia G., I had to find out what had gotten her so upset. If it weren’t for her “It-Ain’t-So” site, I would have never asked the obvious: WHAT isn’t so? and gone back to EPO. Why go there for the answers? Because, EV appears to me faceless and nameless -- locally, nationally and I guess internationally. I get no information whatsoever from EV. Who runs EV? What are their names? When will they hold a question-and-answer session in person in my town? [I know Pia and her wonderful and lovely husband and kids and am so sorry for her health situation. However, I think her site is embarrassing, as are the ELK site, the FAQs on the EV site, and the response from EV lawyers you’ve posted, but also, as well, most of the hateful speech linked to and on your EPO site.] Anyway…

I’ve appreciated reading many but not all of the posts of the exes and feel that some of the dialogue is useful, however, stale. I spent about 125 hours over the past six weeks reading the entire “Best of” Forum and most of the material on the EPO. [Side comment, “thanks” to all of you who wasted my time with your unnecessary posts like “Great post,” “Definite *Best of*” “zzzzzzzz” “dsfgdfsg” etc.] However, in truth, as a caring human being, I really feel the pain of the exes and sympathize with and understand what they are saying and where they are coming from. I do. Really! All of it! I wish you all well. As you might tell, I appear conflicted in that I empathize, but don’t agree with the thrust of it at all. I have learned a lot. This whole dialogue is not a joke. I also have had to face what I did with my life the past thirty years, and where I am at today as well as how it has positioned me for my final 20+ years on earth (I hope) -- financially, emotionally, and (I agree with Nigel) motivationally. I’ve enjoyed very much the re-analyzing. It helped me to see where I have fallen short in my life and not taken responsibility for my actions/mistakes, etc. It’s been really good for me to come to terms with the whole enchilada -- the pluses and minuses. And for that, I send some thanks. Do I believe all of M’s alleged problems are of paramount import to me? No, I do not. Our relationship transcends all of that. Always has. Your concerns are in many cases 25+ years old. My experiences and feelings are real to me and cannot be denied. But, I know you all think I’m a self-deluded idiot, brainwashed by the cult, lost. No worries.

I always felt that Jagdeo was a son of a bitch, really. What a nasty guy -- to me and most others. When not on the road in little U.S. towns and hamlets, he was hated by those in Denver. And now to read about Susan and Abi -- I am so sorry for your troubles. What an infuriating and horrible thing, I’m sure. [Note: When he first came to the U.S., he was nice, respectful to others, and carried a little cloth sack around with his things in it. But, a few weeks after his arrival, he was summoned to a meeting with MataJi (M’s mother, whom I blame for everything you guys are troubled about, including regarding her youngest son) and all of a sudden became a mean despot. I’m close with the person who took care of him, and Jagdeo was confronted and admitted that it was MataJi in the meeting who’d told him how to act and how to be -- including orders to never sit at the same level as a premie, always sit above them, etc. etc. Jagdeo apologized and never was disrespectful again to this person, who had stood up to him.] As you probably know, your case is weak, however. (Not your beef, but your case.) To me, your site’s notion of justice is out of whack. Your lawyers will not “pierce the corporate veil.” On the other hand, do I think Valerio is a joke? Yes, I do. And that he charges hundreds of dollars to go to one of his corporate-speak service trainings? Outraged. Why? Because I see the graduates (EV managers) of those seminars and I do not see any improvement at all in their service performance. Have I been ticked over the past few years by the fact that major donors are getting to spend a lot of time with Maharaji and always sit up front at events, while financially strapped me with not great eyesight anymore is usually near the back or way over on the side at my one-hour-a-year U.S. event? Yes I am. But, hey, that’s life. I’ve dealt with a lot more in the past 30 years. It’s not the essence.

I am writing today because of your kindness and respect shown to David Andersen [hey MFer, you are completely fly for a white guy and you knows it, cuz] and her sister. I hope that you might find it in your hearts to be nice to me, but I know how easy it is for many of you to dissect every word and parse every sentence posted by non-exes. Thanks, but save it, okay? I will not be responding to your comments or lists of questions for me. I do not want any argument, dialogue or pissing contest. I’ll check back in a few days, but then, like David Andersen, it’ll be adios amigos for me!!! I am tired from and of reading your site. One request: please don’t copy this message in its entirety and then reprint the whole thing but with your comments stuck in after every few sentences >>. I hate that. If you must, just write a paragraph and get your point across, okay?

Did you ever live in a two-bedroom apartment with 23 people and have to do all their laundry, as well as cook, clean the place, make lunches, make breakfast, chase rats, mice and roaches 24/7, clean the satsang room, which was also the bedroom and knowledge room (sessions all day and night) all day long, every day, with no break, and have to constantly fix and plunge the stuffed up seriously over-used toilet, constantly shop for food and have to carry up all the groceries four flights of steps yourself, and then have to make chai at an exact temperature five times a day on top of all the rest? And be sleep-deprived but made to rise before dawn to sing and pray in Hindi before you could meditate and your myriad of responsibilities begin all over again? And be disrespected and told that, no, you can’t go out for ice cream -- ever again You cannot go to the movies -- ever! And your mother, weeping softly through her forced smile as she drops you off -- her teenaged daughter/housemother -- in the cold night after an all-too-infrequent dinner-out-with-mom, amongst all these drunks and druggies lurking, loitering, urinating and flashing all over the block and right in front of your darkened building. And you will not get to tool around town in a swank light blue Plymouth sedan and have an expense account, as others did. And you may not go out to dinner with your main squeeze or any friends. You cannot do shit! Some can, but you can’t. (On weekends, while in the ashram, I used to play softball in the park with beer-drinking, pot-smoking nonpremie hippies, because I had nothing else to do all weekend long -- no vacations, skiing, nothing.) And by the way we are transferring you to Kalamazoo, Michigan. Did you surrender your entire life over to M, but found that in charge were some idiots who really didn’t give a shit about you? I did. It hurt. (By the way, if you’re out there: Fuck you, Candy McNary, you bitch!) [Do I have some anger left? Evidently.] Way too many of the women wannabe executives/feminists with their ashen faces and stupid high collars made me sick. Ugly as shit, too. Kissing up to Bob and Lou and the Michaels and all the rest. What a bunch of phonies and pathetic status climbers.

Though I have seen just about everything that went on and know most all of the players personally for the past 30 years, I can say without hesitation that I don’t know everything, obviously. I kind of enjoyed (known as guilty pleasure) reading AJW, Nigel, Jim Sanders, Richard R., Joy J., Mike Finch, Friends of Mike Finch, Way and a few others -- especially Michael Donner! I hear where you all are coming from. I especially feel empathy for those who lived in England in the 70’s and other older countries with long rich cultures and traditions and were part of DLM in any way shape or form and who had to go through all that crap. You know, the insensitivity of the Indian Mahatmas and their never-ending trips (sick and otherwise); the robotic badly interpreted agya; the outright selfishness, hurt and noncaring; having to leave the ashram penniless and homeless and having to start from scratch at near 30-years-of-age with a really weak résumé. (I know these all -- all too well.) I feel especially saddened by these tales from across the Atlantic for some reason -- perhaps because I feel that the U.K. was the original birth place of the Church Ladies. Because, being so far away from groovy Denver and the former DLM headquarters, you all were seriously lagging and lacking in any kind of fun whatsoever, it appears. If you’ve had the chance to read Sophia Collier’s Soul Rush book (great writing) on the EPO, you know that things kind of deteriorated as far as the monastic lifestyle out at the old IHQ ashrams (pronounced in the U.K. as “ash,” as in cigarette ash and “rams” as in the animal -- not the deep “a” as in “opera” for both syllables as it is pronounced in the U.S.). The idea of bringing the Eastern monastic lifestyle into the aftermath of the freaky 60’s here in America was all too much. Just didn’t work. Too many 20-year-olds with raging hormones. (Again, I blame Mrs. J.J. Mata Ji). The long sleeves and long skirts and Earthshoes® for the gals; the second-hand suits for the guys -- nice touch. [However, remember that in ’74-’75, we got wholesale discounts on some new clothes from some New York fashion houses and everyone got a new fashionable coat and a few newer style outfits, though we still had to beg for replacement underwear and socks (“Please, Danielle?”).] I recall that, aside from practicing meditation, satsang and service, the only thrill I got (initially) was looking forward to putting cayenne on my daily housemother’s special -- the veggie plate -- at dinner. That was it! Red pepper. What a rush! Wow! What an exciting existence. But, you know, I loved it all. Really. Those were exciting, fun times, through it all. [Am I schizo? Maybe.]

Though I write anonymously today, I miss the smiles and laughter of Joan Boykin, Joe Natter, Joan Leahy, Lou Schwartz, Shelly Kaplan, Kathy Sullivan, Dan Hinckley, Kim Schaurer, Janet and Guy Rollins, and the hundreds of others I lived and worked with. And I miss the community premies who didn’t live in the ashram, but were just as inspirational and loving and supportive of me. What happened to them? Where did they go? Where are they? What happened? I miss you all. You are/were wonderful people, lovely to me, funny, fun, insightful, friendly and caring. I also sincerely miss and will always miss Jon Chan (“Time for arti,” in his sweet Asian whisper), Francisco Arce, David Davis, Darrell Evers, Titi Benofi, Nick Seymour Jones, Michael Compton, Bill Rowe, Jordi Kessler, Eileen Mishler, Steve O’Neil and Sandy Meadows -- all dead now, all former premie friends. The living ones, I wonder about. Where’s Tiny, Suzi Bai, Dick Mezey, Ellen Saxel, Thabo Chitja, and so many many others? And why have they disappeared like Chandra Levy?

So, what’s my relevant point here? Well, like Dave Andersen, I have a master/student relationship with Maharaji that includes a personal aspect to it. Am I friends with him and his family? No. But he and I like each other. He knows me. I know him. We talked just recently. Privately. He’s always cared personally about me and shown it. He’s the greatest! (In fact, he once told me during play that he was going to smash me into a million pieces.) I love him. My experience is mine. Undeniable. You can’t touch it.

Okay, we’ve got problems (I’ve now read all about them). And I’m sorry. And I hope things get ironed out. (But, as you can see from the above, I am not too enamored with the organizational aspect and think it is quite dysfunctional.) Not that I have turned a blind eye to the above enumerated problems, or your many allegations, but, nobody is going to tell me -- NOBODY -- that the joy I’ve experienced in listening to him has not been real and inspiring, time and time again, or that his personal guidance and advices to me have not been always right on, or that Knowledge hasn’t worked. No! I know all that like I know I’m alive. I am sorry you guys hate his guts. I really am. Unconditional love requires overlooking seeming faults on both sides of the relationship. I’ve witnessed his growth and mine, and I feel our relationship’s great worth for me. I hope that all of you find peace one day and come to terms with -- TO YOU -- the terrible fate that has befallen you by being associated with Maharaji. If you can, enjoy the wonderful remaining years you’ve got left (if any. Who knows?). Hug your wife, smell your kids, go to the beach, and get the fuck off the Internet already. Thanks. All you hungry sharks may now continue your online feeding frenzy.

Your brother, always, OTS.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 08:00:42 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: David
Subject: Dear Mr.Anon -article-person
Message:
I am very pissed off with high status characters who make their mighty one-sided pronouncements and then walk off-stage never to return. Premies seem to have adopted this behaviour as part of their communicating process. Over on LG I had a bit of a dialogoe with a person (WK) who seemed addicted to launching meaningless one-liners and fucking off leaving me to untangle them. Hit and run is a crime at all levels, not just on the highway.

I do actually understand this inability to enter into rational dialogue. Although it appears, to a discerning person, as nothing more than high handed, patronising and condescending behaviour, it is in fact worse than that! To an ex-premie it is transparantly the obvious and inevitable consequence of practicing knowlege.

Mr Anonymous,If you check back in, please accept my complete lack of respect for your perspective and the way you communicate it. Find some courage and a bit of wit, and learn to give and take. My email address is above, but write with respect.

love Bryn

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:03:12 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: David
Subject: the love issue
Message:
Hello and I guess, goodbye, although I think you could hang around
and converse a bit.

You know, I also have had to deal with the unconditional love concept
and I think you may want to review the subject again.

We want to have relationships with others, some demand a lot to have a relationship with them and some REALLY demand a lot.
I have found that I deserve to be accepted as I am without catering
to anothers demands for special treatment to earn thier freindship.

I have found that all freindships come with positives and negatives, and that although I can overlook grevious flaws in another because
of reasons of my choosing, like those that choose to be personal freinds of saddam hussein who is very much into torture, I cost myself
something when I have to close my eyes to anothers behaviours and
pretend.
Hell, I do that I must admit, and so what do I say to you who also
decides to do that.
Except, that maturity will bring about a state where we will no longer
tolerate spending time in relationships that are frankly based in
too much pretense.
I wish you a good life, dont lie to others, and see god in ALL equally if you must see god in one person.
I personally refuse to see god in anyone.
I think god is not worth thinking about. If we were really supposed to think about god, we would not have so many religions that are so different and so nutty.
I think the lesson is that we are NOT supposed to involve ourselves worrying about pleaseing god, but are supposed to live as best we can
enjoying ourselves in spite of Murphy's law that bothers us daily.

I can try to do the impossible, and look for the love I need from others, and find someone who will dole parcels out to me so I can
adore them. So I can just allow myself to feel special.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:07:22 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: the love issue
Message:
More and more lately I have decided NOT to overlook things that really bother me about a person. I used to have dozens of 'friends' who were not really friends because I spent so much time denying their destructive influence over me. Or the energy it took from me to keep the friendship. It was a very hard thing for me to do, to basically clean house and take care of myself.

I was raised and programmed (thanks for your part M - NOT) to not speak up and to people please.

But I have grown up some , hope to change more, and now have a small circle of friends, but they are fun, we are good for each other, we don't get into the dark crap and .... none of them even heard or if they did do not care about a 40 something year old Mr. Rawat who is leading a cult. Needless to say I have no premie friends left but again, those friendships demanded I agree with the religious beliefs. And right into the late nineties this was true.
Question Maharaji's motives and you were outcast.
Good post Bill thank you.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 21:05:48 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: the love issue
Message:
Your comment about cleaning house made me laugh, as some of the very folks that have the most demands are right here in the house!

UGH!

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:53:47 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: the love issue
Message:
can I see your photo? I'll show you mine.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 13:48:42 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I dont know how to [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 16:04:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Well, aren't you special?
Message:
I hope that you might find it in your hearts to be nice to me, but I know how easy it is for many of you to dissect every word and parse every sentence posted by non-exes. Thanks, but save it, okay? I will not be responding to your comments or lists of questions for me. I do not want any argument, dialogue or pissing contest. I’ll check back in a few days, but then, like David Andersen, it’ll be adios amigos for me!!!

This is as far as I read. I figured why read any further if this individual isn't going to engage in any discussion. Why bother posting at all if that's the case? In spite of what this individual might think, I DO have a life and that doesn't include reading long, self indulgent diatribes. This person must think he's very special that I would even care to. And what a bullshit thing to do, to email somebody else to post for you. What does he think you are, OTS, press secretary or something?

What a laugh.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 07:36:31 (EDT)
From: mayo
Email: None
To: David
Subject: What a load of ol bollocks
Message:
The organisation is the manifestation of the man. You can't say that you hate the organisation but love the man, they are inseperable.

If you hate the organisation, you hate the man
If you love the man, you love the organisation

2+2=4

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 03:35:23 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
Bravo.No need for anything else. My experience is slightly different. But in essence the end is the same.I dont expect miracles from a volunteer organisation; in fact I expect the opposite.Let's just say that things change and a lot of the control freaks have been put out to pasture. Things can be done kindly. Take a deep breath.
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:52:01 (EDT)
From: sILVIA
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
You too, you have expired.

Are you still breathing? any oxigen going in? Any rational thinking going one? Wake up. The boSs runs the show cat. WAKE UP!

jSCA

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:17:20 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: sILVIA
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
You may be shocked Sliver but I know a little more about who does what than I'll ever let on here. Frankly none of you even come close. Credibility comes from verifiable fact not vapid hot air . You and Deborahhhhhh keep on congratulating each other on your impeccable insight. It keeps you busy. As for knowing what's happening I'd rather put my head on the entrance to a Meat-ants nest than listen to you two whingers. Groan on....................
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 18:52:46 (EDT)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
I love you, man.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 10:33:46 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Isabella
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
How deep is your love and endoctrination?
Do you see yourself as a human being or as a DEVOTEE/cult member?
Do you question your needs?
Do you remember how you were BEFORE getting in the cult?
Do you get along with your family?
Do you respect them?
Do you honor them?
How often do you visit your mom or dad?
How many close, deep friendship relationships do you have and for how long have you maintained them?
How is your physical and mental health?
Do you have a love relationship and for how long?
What do you think about your sexuality?
Is mahariachi handsome?
Do you have sexual fantasies with him?
Is one of your 'dreams' to be around him?
Do you worship him?
Do you adore him?
Do you want to convert everybody you encounter?
Do you see everybody without K as people who are suffering, inferior to yourself?
Do you love yourself and if the answer is yes tell me please in words how and why?

I could go on....You don't have to give long answers, yes or no would be fine. Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:22:43 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
Silvia, he strictly instructed us not to give him lists of questions.

Ha ha, who does this clown think he is, anyways?

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:42:57 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
Isabelle told ex-premies not to ask questions? is that true? If it is it sound familiar. We say in my 'pagos/tierras': 'As the stick is the splinter.'

Lard doesn't answer questions except those 'make believe' ones he has written in his papars, at rare programs. No, premies are not individuals but the result of what mariachi wants to create: FRICKING ROBOTS!

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:33:46 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
You asked:
Isabelle told ex-premies not to ask questions? is that true?

No my dear I was not speaking of Isabella but rather the guy who emailed the anonymouse post at the top of the thread. He left a list of demands for the responding posters.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 19:43:58 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Isabella
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
I presume it's OTS you love and not me. :'(
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 09:42:49 (EDT)
From: Isabella
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Who do we love?
Message:
I presume it's OTS you love and not me. :'(


---

Well, I found his (her?) message stunning, so I guess it would be ots in this case. It remarkably mirrors my own.

But, I'll love you too if you want David (but which of the David's are you? David A? David J? Sir Dave? I can't keep track of all you D boys). If its Sir Dave - yeah - I love you for posting it.

And, by the way, there ain't no bollocks there at all. OTS has articulated perfectly how many folks I know feel. And the fact that some folks can't understand the seeming paradox is perfectly fine with me. Doesnt change nuttin, honey.

Is

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 16:25:06 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: David
Subject: OTS, I'm still a premie, too. I recently
Message:
heard about Suzie She no longer likes to be called Bai. I was in Kazoo, too. in '73. In fact, I first heard satsang there, from Gary Toth and moved into the information center there. When were you there? Do we know each other? Please feel free to eMail me.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:11:05 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: OTS, I'm still a premie, too. I recently
Message:
You know, I also have had to deal with the unconditional love concept
and I think you may want to review the subject again.

We want to have relationships with others, some demand a lot to have a relationship with them and some REALLY demand a lot.
I have found that I deserve to be accepted as I am without catering
to anothers demands for special treatment to earn thier freindship.

I have found that all freindships come with positives and negatives, and that although I can overlook grevious flaws in another because
of reasons of my choosing, like those that choose to be personal freinds of saddam hussein who is very much into torture, I cost myself
something when I have to close my eyes to anothers behaviours and
pretend.
Hell, I do that I must admit, and so what do I say to you who also
decides to do that.
Except, that maturity will bring about a state where we will no longer
tolerate spending time in relationships that are frankly based in
too much pretense.
I wish you a good life, dont lie to others, and see god in ALL equally if you must see god in one person.
I personally refuse to see god in anyone.
I think god is not worth thinking about. If we were really supposed to think about god, we would not have so many religions that are so different and so nutty.
I think the lesson is that we are NOT supposed to involve ourselves worrying about pleaseing god, but are supposed to live as best we can
enjoying ourselves in spite of Murphy's law that bothers us daily.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 23:12:57 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: bill
Subject: OTS raised the 'unconditional love'
Message:
You know, I also have had to deal with the unconditional love concept
and I think you may want to review the subject again.

We want to have relationships with others, some demand a lot to have a relationship with them and some REALLY demand a lot.
I have found that I deserve to be accepted as I am without catering
to anothers demands for special treatment to earn thier freindship.

I have found that all freindships come with positives and negatives, and that although I can overlook grevious flaws in another because
of reasons of my choosing, like those that choose to be personal freinds of saddam hussein who is very much into torture, I cost myself
something when I have to close my eyes to anothers behaviours and
pretend.
Hell, I do that I must admit, and so what do I say to you who also
decides to do that.
Except, that maturity will bring about a state where we will no longer
tolerate spending time in relationships that are frankly based in
too much pretense.
I wish you a good life, dont lie to others, and see god in ALL equally if you must see god in one person.
I personally refuse to see god in anyone.
I think god is not worth thinking about. If we were really supposed to think about god, we would not have so many religions that are so different and so nutty.
I think the lesson is that we are NOT supposed to involve ourselves worrying about pleaseing god, but are supposed to live as best we can
enjoying ourselves in spite of Murphy's law that bothers us daily.


---

banner, so I'm confused by your apparent response to my post. Do you think I'm OTS? I'm not. Was it something else, like maybe other posts of mine? or what?

I do seek to realise God in everybody. That's oone reason I tried to be nice to Jim even when he swore at me, apparently for having the effrontery (sp?) of being an unrepentant premie who dared stand up to him.

I disagree with your contention that there being so many religions (and I would add mystery schools to the mix) means we shouldn't think about God. But I don't think it matters, or should matter, to you what I think. I believe we both should follow our deepest understanding of what the next thing we ought to do is, do it, and then move on to the next thing in the same fasion; while watching out for mistakes made on the way and doing what we can to clean them up when we spot one. But 'cause I believe that only means I should try and do that. And I do.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:04:01 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: OTS raised the 'unconditional love'
Message:
Hi Carlos,
Mistakes seem so much a part of living that I now consider it a proof that there IS a god.
The obstacles we all run into cant be avoided by anyone no matter how they try to insulate themselves. And the problems come in such a variety and hits all folks.
Just this weekend we put on a party for the oldest boy who is 23 and about to get married in a month.
Sure enough, we had all kinds of fiasco's leading up to the party just to sort of give the devil his due.
Seems like murphy's law demands it's cut of anything in life.
And for those that dont have problems, they have a lot to worry about because WHAT is building up? What will clobber them? Something I assure you.
And I know lots of folks who are quite christian, they seem to be purplexed trying to understand WHY thier life is so not right.
Religions skirt the issue.
Love is the great commandment, yet that is exactly the hardest thing to accomplish.
I think that there is no hope of getting the love you need from those around you. Unless you have a kid before they hit age 11 in the house.
We have to just get it from our attitude and ask for whatever help
wishing hopefully will bring us.
Then at least I have love inside and can dole it out to those around me and whomever can recieve it as a plus, well, good for them.
I cannot love someone unconditionally and they cannot do that for me.
Biggest problem in relationships is looking for something out of the next person that they cannot hope to really give, or give constantly
or as much as we think we need.

blah blah blah right?
When did you recieve knowledge? Mr Harden:)

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:22:12 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: bill
Subject: 1/25/73, Parlokanand, Grand Rapids, Mi. I was
Message:
living in Kalamazoo, going to WMU, why?

I notice you put the post I responded to as your reply to OTS as well as your reply to me. Naturally this makes me feel even more that you think I am, or might be, OTS. I hereby give the FA my permission to confirm that, based on browser type information and ISP data, he has no reason to think I am him/her.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 06:19:17 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Carlos
Subject: Imagine there's no Heaven
Message:
and no God either. This need to see God in people is handed down from some ancient Christian texts. I prefer to see the person in the person, not God. When all's said and done, we see the person and if we want to describe their good side as 'God' so be it but it's only a name we call the bit we like.

Regarding unconditional love - it is often there between parents and children. Children do love their parents unconditionally, unless they are mistreated or abused in some way. Parents are often taught by their children how to love unconditionally. I don't mean 'teach' as in that they do it intentionally but the process of the long term relationship with the children can bring it out.

Of course, the best friendships also have unconditional love as does helping someone who we feel responsible for and certainly much of the love between animals and humans is unconditional love.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:28:22 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Always apreciate your perspective, Sir
Message:
and no God either. This need to see God in people is handed down from some ancient Christian texts. I prefer to see the person in the person, not God. When all's said and done, we see the person and if we want to describe their good side as 'God' so be it but it's only a name we call the bit we like.

Regarding unconditional love - it is often there between parents and children. Children do love their parents unconditionally, unless they are mistreated or abused in some way. Parents are often taught by their children how to love unconditionally. I don't mean 'teach' as in that they do it intentionally but the process of the long term relationship with the children can bring it out.

Of course, the best friendships also have unconditional love as does helping someone who we feel responsible for and certainly much of the love between animals and humans is unconditional love.


---

Dave, even tho we usually differ at least a little about God, etc.

In your role as FA would you tell Bill that I'm not OTS, please? He seems to thinkj I am.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 15:01:51 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Thanks to OTS
Message:
OTS,

Thank you very much for writing. I am glad that you expressed yourself so openly. Your letter was very poignant, especially the part about the rest of our lives being only 20 years or so and what are we going to do with it. It makes me feel that having a human life is an opportunity, maybe not quite the way that Shri Hans used to talk about it, but we do sense something valuable, don't we. And it's not easy.

It must really be a difficult experience to be happy being a student of Maharaji and then seeing so much negativity about it all. I never had that experience. The closest thing I ever felt was when I was a very sincere and contented premie and nobody in my family or circle of friends was the least bit positive about it. I just chalked it up to their being less evolved that myself! Fortunately I no longer feel that way.

You seem to think that because of all the complaining we've been doing since 1997 that we all hate Rawat and we damn the bad luck we had to ever have been associated. I don't think that any of us really feel that way, although I can see how you might get that impression. I think that many of us actually still appreciate our youthful days seeking Truth and Love and we really don't blame either ourselves or Rawat, or Mataji for that matter, that we didn't quite attain the ultimate experience.

Surely you realize that we so-called exes have not abandoned our honor for Truth or our love for love. It's just that we don't believe Maharaji is the Master of those things. I certainly would never tell you that the good experiences you have had and continue to have are not real. And if you have them in connection with Mr. Rawat, I truly can say that I think that is fine. If the story was as simple as that, then I would not object at all. But that isn't the whole story. Maharaji tells people that without him as their Master they will never fulfill their lives. I really wish he would never say such untruths and propogate such an unhealthy philosophy.

Thanks for all the names. Some have gone on, and we are soon to follow. The most important thing now is that we honor each other.

If you do a search for +'Kathy Sullivan' +'Books of the Month', you will find her current website. She is no longer with Maharaji, but she still lives in Malibu and runs a bookmobile or something like that, the last we heard here on the Forum.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:54:06 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Mata Ji is 26 year old information
Message:
TO OTS:

As I said below, blaming things on Mata Ji is REALLY old information. There was a big family split in 1974. I know, I was caught in the middle of it, but went back to the LA premie community in 1976. M hasn't been listening to her for years. At a program I went to in the mid-80s M said he patched up things with her before she died.

That 25-year old information argument is specious, because many posters left recently. And many of us have friends, family and spouses that were premies, and were keeping us up with the latest news. I walked gradually, not in anger. One by one many of the premies I know have left K and M, at least in my circle. One of my closest friends, however, IS still a premie.

I would like to know what happened to Bill Rowe, because my husband and I really liked him. I also waht to know why you call us a hate club, hungry sharks, etc. If you read your own post, there was about as much love and dislike expressed in it as many posts on the forums. And if you read it as if it was written to you, in between the love expressed, there is a lot of put-downs and condescention.

Why should we get off the Internet any more than you should? Do you think we spend all day here? My life wasn't 'ruined' by M. There's a lot worse out there, but you wouldn't have found out anything you learned without this site and the forums. Easy to say go away all of you people, now that you've opened Pandora's box.

I am not here to talk to premies or to change their minds about M & K. I couldn't care less, frankly. You came across this information on the 'net, and are now midly lashing out at us as a result of reading it. Hope you can get over your reactions and accept it or move on.

Best wishes to you,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:09:26 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: David
Subject: Welcome OTS
Message:
OTS,

I really enjoyed reading your post. A walk down samsara lane to be sure. We surely know each other if you mention all of those people from IHQ. I would love to chat with you off line and perhaps fill in the memory gaps and who's where. Email me in full confidence of it staying private.

I'm not an M-hater and get flamed here on occassion for even suggesting I enjoyed my ashram life. That could because IHQ ashrams were country clubs compared to the ones in the provinces. At the time I was glad I was insulated from being a 'community premie' and enjoyed that more priveledged life. I payed dearly for it but received a lot in return so I don't consider it a waste of time because I chose to be there. I learned the career I do to this day (graphic design) and saw that time as a cross between grad school and boot camp. Chastity, poverty and obediance were vows I chose to interpret the same as my Guru did for himself and for that my integrity had the day off. I live with that. Others were not so fortunate nor so loose with the rules.

Sorry you feel that we are hungry sharks here. Posters come here for many reasons but I think you know that. I sense from some of your comments that you are protecting yourself from a shark attack but hopefully conversation will ensue and not attack. Please do post directly if you choose. Your perspective adds to the complete story that, as you say, is missing from Pia or EV sites.

Richard who proudly wore one of those brown cloth coats with imitation rat fur collars

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:24:20 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Some of the people
Message:
Dick Mezey was seriously ill for a while in the early 80s, although I was never sure what was really wrong with him. I hope he recovered. His brother, Alan Mezey, was deprogrammed around 1978 and was not seen in premie circles after that. Apparently, it was successful.

I know you don't want to be analyzed, and so I won't. It seems to me you have a lot to go through yet. I would just suggest trusting your feelings and your bullshit-detector. I know as a premie, at least as far as Maharaji was concerned, that was very repressed, but like any other muscle, the more you exercise it, the more you allow yourself to listen to it, I think you'll be just fine, although it probably won't be easy, if my experience is anything to go by. Uncomfortable in questioning sacred cows, but quickly ended.

One of the things I have discovered, in probably the very hardest way possible, is that 'unconditional love' is not only false, it is very dangerous. The reason for this is that the object of your devotional 'unconditional' love has to love you back the same way for it to have any reality, and to avoid terrible calamities. Some say God loves unconditionally, if he or she really exists, but with a human being, it is a recipe for disaster.'

I tried to love Maharaji unconditionally, but that just meant I accepted anything he said or did as just fine, no matter what damage it did to me and others. That isn't love, OTS, it's some kind of devotional servitude, and I want no part of it, no matter how good it might feel at the time. There are a lot of bad side effects.

So, he's nice to you. Is that quite enough?

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:30:18 (EDT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Some of the people
Message:
>>I would just suggest trusting your feelings and your bullshit-detector. I know as a premie, at least as far as Maharaji was concerned, that was very repressed, but like any other muscle, the more you exercise it, the more you allow yourself to listen to it, I think you'll be just fine, although it probably won't be easy, if my experience is anything to go by.

My friend, I for one have had a very good “bullshit meter” in place for a long, long time, and my feelings are the only vector that makes any sense to me. You most probably would imply that yours is working and mine isn’t by virtue of us coming to different conclusions. You sound very presumptuous and paternalistic in your stance.

>>One of the things I have discovered, in probably the very hardest way possible, is that 'unconditional love' is not only false, it is very dangerous. The reason for this is that the object of your devotional 'unconditional' love has to love you back the same way for it to have any reality, and to avoid terrible calamities. Some say God loves unconditionally, if he or she really exists, but with a human being, it is a recipe for disaster.'

Sad.

>>I tried to love Maharaji unconditionally, but that just meant I accepted anything he said or did as just fine, no matter what damage it did to me and others. That isn't love, OTS, it's some kind of devotional servitude, and I want no part of it, no matter how good it might feel at the time. There are a lot of bad side effects.

Yes, well it appears the application of your brand of unconditional love lead you astray from your self. That is a shame.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:34:22 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Richard II
Subject: Hang on
Message:
The unconditional love was supposed to be coming from the Lord of the Universe. But in reality, that never happened.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:50:45 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Who do ya love?
Message:
With apologies to Bo Diddley: Who do ya love?

Apparently Maharaji didn't love that bicycist he ran over very much. I don't think the Pope or the Dalai Lama, for example, would have done that to someone. So does someone have to have a certain status, be in a certain position in relation to Maharaji, in order to merit his love and consideration?

I do know that when he said he loved premies, at the moments when he said it at least, I had no reason to doubt it. He was radiating it, and I'd be a fool to say that Maharaji's feeling or emotion was fake.

But, even if someone is convinced he does love, the question is WHO does Maharaji love? And if that love is selective for certain people, that that is very limited, finite sort of love, and not unconditional at all. Unconditional love does not pick specific 'objects.' It radiates out from the heart and touches all who come within its ambit. Otherwise, it is conditional, by definition. A love with conditions put on it, i.e., Maharaji will only love premies, but can run down a bicyclist and walk away.

I don't know if I've ever really seen any human being exhibit unconditional love consistently. But at least the Dalai Lama and the Pope wouldn't run away. In fact, Bishop Gallegos (in Northern California) got hit by a car and killed trying to HELP a stranded motorist, but then again, he was only a Catholic bishop. But this begs the question: why should Bishop Gallegos be kinder than the Master himself?

I guess it's because the Master is only a regular guy. Sorry folks, this does not compute.

bests,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:14:19 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: and Tiny was an abusive sadistic pig
Message:
'Tiny' Gregory Reinhardt used his position in the ashram to routinely punch and otherwise abuse some of the brothers, and while others were living on a subsistence vege diet, he used to take ashram money and go out and gorge himself. In truth, he was an abusive pig.

like you I'll reserve any 'unconditional love' for the source of love -- all human relationships are conditional. m. imposed and imposes conditions on his students. But where were the conditions and criteria for the relationship which were imposed on him? we were mentally programmed and taught to unconditionally obey and accept everything miragey said and did -- yes, a recipe for disaster. That's the trap that premies fall into -- they suspend their own sense of reasoning for a cult manipulated mirage.

Peace and lentils,

Suzy bai, haha. I remember her trying to play guitar at satsang. go figure... Who knows? Maybe she's into Lilith Fair now or Jenny Craig or Amway or Tony Robbins.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 15:54:13 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Suzie Bai Whitten
Message:
It has been reported by a few people on the Forum that Suzie Bai Whitten was working as a screen writer in California, and had left the cult some time ago.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 05:28:42 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That's correct
Message:
I saw her at the end of 1999 and that's what she told me.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:54:24 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Would suzy bai care to post on EPO? nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 13:59:34 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: screen writer? we got the material! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:27:36 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re:we got the material! Got THAT right, such [nt]
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 14:03:33 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: let's get Suzy bai to write a screenplay...nt
Message:
ff
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:37:35 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Candi McNary
Message:
God, OTS, what did she do to you? I rather liked Candi, but if it is any concilation, she suffered many depths of hell as a premie/initiator. She told me once that she got so freaked out during her Initiator Training Program that she had obsessive thoughts about suicide. So, you can see many people suffered in the Maharaji cult system.

But to the extent Candi, or the notorious Nazi David Smith had authority to inflict sadistic abuse on vulnerable ashram premies, aspirants, or any premie who was sincerely trying to 'surrender' like Maharaji said we were supposed to, it was because someone allowed that system to run and continue, and to care so little to even notice, or perhaps even condone what was going on, and that's Maharaji, whom I know you won't judge because you love him unconditionally, but it's nevertheless a fact he is responsible.

As for the 25+ issue, it's actually more like 17, or perhaps less, since that's when my involvement ended, and, in fact, the sexual improprieties were going on in the late 80s according to Mr. Dettmers, but regardless, is there some kind of statute of limitations in your mind about this? I mean, because it happened 15 years ago, should we just forget it? And if it was going on 15 years ago, doesn't it make you think it might be going on now? I know you don't care either way, but I think most other rational people might.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:19:21 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: David
Subject: Re: Anon article posted here by request
Message:
Interesting memories, premie brother. I'm not going to argue with you. Just a couple of points in the defense of our hate club, though:
- We do have kids and lives and so on...and have occasionally noted the fact in our posts, and have even exulted in our increasing sense of joie de vivre (I almost said elan vital)since giving up the incessant self-monitoring process of 'Realizing Knowledge.' However, on EPO our main point is the deconstruction of the path of Knowledge and its Maximum Leader.

- Not all of us hate Maharaj Ji. I don't.

- Not all of us unequivocally regret our involvement with Him. I had good times. (I am also glad I got out.)

- Our main point about these good times is that we feel they really don't have a whole lot to do with Prem Pal Rawat. Looking at his words and actions unsentimentally, we feel he is not the Master he claims to be. We know how it feels to be in love with him and we feel that distance from him has allowed us to assess the emotion somewhat differently than when we were premies.

Good luck to you in your spiritual evolution. In some ways, we are of course brothers on the path. (That's me and you, cuz...some exes are straight up atheists now.)

Gregg

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:56:25 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Ahem, the same old assumptions
Message:
Nothing new here-wait-maybe the 'Mataji did it' twist is a little novel, but probably not. The premies did it, EV corrupt social climbing PAMs did it, only the master is pure. Never doubt the purity of the master. Ex-premies have no personal equanimity and he hopes we find peace, hug our spouses, go to the beach, (get a life--get it?) and interestingly, 'get the fuck off the internet.' Hmmm...

And, of course, 'personal experience' is paramount and overrides all human concerns.

The programming is indeed deeply embedded. Lately I've come to the conclusion there is no hope for the hardcore. My future efforts will be aimed at opposing 'propagation' and preventing new people from falling into Rawat's insidious trap.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 16:13:38 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well summed up, Gerry (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:38:09 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Jerry, I hear where you're coming from
Message:
I am so tired of premies writing messages that contain just as much love and dislike as any of our own, and then calling us a hate club.

Also the same 25+ year old rag, when many people who post have RECENTLY LEFT. There is much current information. Plus even donner and Dettmers left in the mid-80s. So like, DO THE MATH. And most people posting did not run away in 1973 and avoid all contact with premies. For many years I was up on recent development from close friends who remained premies. It's just whitewash in order to discredit what we are saying, but I don't know what it would be like to have been involved in this for over 20 years, because there's NO WAY I would have been. These revelations about M are just the coup de grace, because years ago I stopped thinking that he was inspiring, uplifting or credible, without knowing about his golden toilet seat. But I certainly had my earful of his praises until one by one, most of my premie friends left.

GMJ had a break with Mata Ji in about 1974. I know, and was caught in the middle of the family feud as a member of Bhole Ji's Band. So blaming stuff on Mata Ji is exactly 26+ year old nonsense.

However, I don't care whether any of the premies leave or not, personally. I'm not on a crusade to convert them from gurujism. I'm here to be a part of people telling it like it is, for whomever wants to know that it's a cult of worship of a very flawed teacher, with (saving grace) some meditation thrown in.

Instead of killing the messenger, or strangling the messenger, this one is telling us to get off the Internet. At least a gentler approach, but condescending and insulting. How would they have found out what was going on? Basically, 'you told me this stuff, NOW GO AWAY, PLEASE!! Run along now, you hateful people who told me stuff I just couldn't stop reading.'

I think dislike of Rawat = hate, is the premie equation. I have noticed that most expremie people (I say most, because there is some flaming) do not dislike premies, and have friends, sometimes spouses that still are.

Specious, specious, specious. And tiring. I wish this person all the best, but I don't really care what premies think about M, although I care about them as human beings. David Andersen wore me out. All the best to him too, but it rots my brain to hear too much of that.

bests, f

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:59:25 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: go Francesca
Message:
I agree completely. We can support each other here and help provide information for anyone who finds EPO or this discussion board and let them draw their own conclusions.
That is the extent of it for me.
It would be interesting to see some real figures on how many 'students' of Rawat there are in the west as vs. say 10 years ago but I doubt it's possible to find accurate numbers.
Even as I sit here with the cooling half working and barely room to put my manuals up and type at the same time, I wouldn't trade my life for Rawat's at any cost.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:03:20 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: go Francesca
Message:
There were phone conferences for city contacts where PAMS would encourage premies to get on the phone to invite people to the next Lard event. Why? Well, man$$y reasons but one IMO is because it doesn't look good to have so many empty seats at a large event.

An example of how low the numbers have gotten in the U.S. cities is that David Mancoff said to us, a community which used to be huge but there were only 15 present-who showed up because we got in the phone and manipulated them, 'invited' old premies to come to hear 'the instructor' visiting us- he said then that 15 was a very good number, that many cities only had only two, three people, and many only one. So, there you have it.

The reality is the numbers are extra low and what Lard is doing now with his private satellite events is his last resort to keep the few left interested and unaware of what is happening around the U.S. and rest of the world. He keeps those few interested 'feeling the thirst' , keeping the devotion/tie alive(dependecy)until the next large event who everybody would be invited BY HIM to attend, and many will get in further debt following his desires and invitations.

Is a fricking cult and the leader needs the devotees more that they need him: Is called $$$$. He is a materialistic pig who hides his true self behind the facade of MASTER. yeah, I guess I could say I am anybody: That doesn't mean I am really that person. Mariachi is a very deceptive person and I feel trully sorry for all the premies and ex-premies who lost their lives; for the ones who dedicated their lives and are still trapped and lost and needy;for the ones like me who lost much time of their precious lives supporting such a maniac, materialistic 'master' who as ex-premies who have been around him describe him, an ordinary being, nothing special.

The numbers are low Selene, very, very low. Lots of effort is put to gather people to fill those large events, lots! The cult is shrinking and in the mean time he is $$$collecting' all he can. His time is up in the West. Not many human beings fall for the trap of the 70's anymore. This is an age of information available to everyone: The biggest reference 'book' is the internet and now PCs are available in the US in each Public Library. He lost: His game was expossed.

I wouldn't trade places with him either Selene: He is a sick and manipulative low entity. I have morals and self-respect. He lacks both.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 11:39:59 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I do remember his BDay
Message:
Dec. 1997 they played with curtains masking the hall to make it look like there were more people.

Thanks for the info!

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:51:26 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: I do remember his BDay
Message:
How many people are 'low'? How many premies have left since early 80s?

And if it is a lot, how do the current premies justify it?

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:55:19 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: I do remember his BDay
Message:
And if it is a lot, how do the current premies justify it?

BigHeadbold tells them they are so, so special and they smile....

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:01:03 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Silvia had more info
Message:
Than I do in her previous post. 1997 was the last time I went to see the BigOne. I remember looking around, seeing the extra black stage curtains blocking off areas of the hall to make it, basically, a smaller room. I've worked in theater tech, noticed it right away but also heard others commenting on the low attendence I mean it was their
LOTU's/SatGuru's/whatevers birthday, they were still calling them International Events and The Long Beach Convention Center had lots of empty seats. That's all I know. The other interesting thing was the languages spoken around me, a lot of the people there were NOT from the US. And I recognized the usual cast of characters from the early years. A FEW younger people. I doubt the'll give me the demographics :)
And to think, they had that huge swap meet in the other room.
i'll bet they are still trying to sell that crap off. Want to drink your morning coffee out of a mug with his mug on it? Or did the cups have the super exclusive copyright logo?
The only way to start your day huh?
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:38:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: Silvia had more info
Message:
Why don't we produce some ex-premie coffee mugs. We can design a whole series of them. Send proceeds to support F-VI.

We can drink out of them while we post.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:57:53 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Silvia had more info
Message:
ahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:15:51 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: we can start with Stonor's cartoon
Message:
Just put a mop of hair on the third guy, the fat one.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:26:41 (EDT)
From: deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Ahem, the same old assumptions
Message:
Gerry, I've drawn the same conclusion:

My future efforts will be aimed at opposing 'propagation' and preventing new people from falling into Rawat's insidious trap.

Although, I enjoyed hearing what this person has to say, this post is set up to align with the enemy but deliver the spin.

I don't buy it.

I can understand how someone could draw the conclusion that they still choose to follow their heart felt love for Maharaji.

But in this case, too much finger pointing and unreal idealistic comparison. First he says he not going to blame, that he understands all too well, and in one flash of an Orwellian moment, bingo! Does the opposite.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:18:20 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I agree, gerry
Message:
The programming is indeed deeply embedded. Lately I've come to the conclusion there is no hope for the hardcore.

I think more action is needed in terms of the kind of media exposure that happened in France with Combat and the buzz it created in parts of the media over there. I really believe that the cult was genuinely spooked by this. Look at Pia's site and it's almost half devoted to the Combat piece. Then you have EV dropping approx $70,000 for a full page add in Le Monde to contain what they percieved to be the damage from the negative exposure. Ya, you can argue that they only attracted even MORE attention to what the negative buzz is all about, but the fact that they would spend that kind of money at the drop of a hat is IMO very significant in demonstrating how seriously this cult feels threatened by the possibility (if not the probability) of the exposure that was once confined only to the internet spreading through other media. Ya know, once it starts it could spread like wild fire :)

My future efforts will be aimed at opposing 'propagation' and preventing new people from falling into Rawat's insidious trap.

Yup, I think that's a really intelligent way to go. In the end, it might be the most effective way to get to those hardcore premies as well.

The best to ya, ger! :)

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:29:28 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Joey
Subject: Re: I agree, Joey
Message:
You are welcome to email me Joey, I have an article you might be interested in reading.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:13:48 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: PS
Message:
I got a reply from Rich Read of theOregonian who wrote the series on Chetananda cult. He said he will check out the sites I sent him. And I invited him to check out this forum also.
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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:31:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: PS
Message:
Good news gerry. I'm having someone myself come take a peek. If you leave your email, I'll send you a copy of the type of stuff she writes. I'll also let you know which rag she writes for and how to get in touch.

Thanks for the update.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 03:05:32 (EDT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: PS
Message:
Hi Gerry, I read the article on that Guy in the last Sunday Paper here....must be what triggered me to check in again to this site. (I haven't even easedropped here in months!) I had never heard of him (Chetananda), but then probably his followers had never heard of 'our' guru back then or later because they were so caught up into their own cult,too!
Carol
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:32:13 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: gerry
Subject: Re: PS
Message:
Gerry, you are also welcome to email me.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 11:53:45 (EDT)
From: gerry the armed and ready
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Annie git yer guns... OT
Message:
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!) In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in 'successfully ridding Australian society of guns.'

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.

The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note Americans, before it's to late!

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:42:00 (EDT)
From: Passing Gas
Email: None
To: gerry the armed and ready
Subject: hey Gerry the REAL reason
Message:
Guns were restricted in Australia.
Read it and shudder
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 20:57:00 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: gerry the armed and ready
Subject: Check homicide figures elsewhere..(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:37:14 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: gerry the armed and ready
Subject: How severe are the penalties
Message:
for keeping arms or acquiring replacements?

Are citizens forbidden altogether to keep arms, or are there elaborate hurdles to jump over, i.e., permits, background checks, or other approvals and supervisions and so on?

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:48:19 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: How severe are the penalties
Message:
Carl, I'm not up on the particulars of the law and I posted this without attribution, sorry. It was written by Carl Limbacher of Newsmax.com
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 11:58:17 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: gerry the armed and ready
Subject: Re: Annie git yer guns... OT
Message:
I guess the problem is that once a country has let out the genie of arming its citizens, you can't put the genie back:-(

John

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 14:41:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Annie git yer guns... OT
Message:
That's exactly what I was thinking.

Living in Canada is unique. We don't fear losing what we've never had, or in this case, making an opportunity out of it.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:19:24 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Annie git yer guns... OT
Message:
I guess the problem is that once a country has let out the genie of arming its citizens, you can't put the genie back:-(

John


---

John, you seem to be implying that at some point governments gave citizens the OK to arm themselves.

Self defense was the norm throughout human history. As weapons developed, bad people used them against others. People had to arm themselves against those few who were criminals. Even today police are rarely able to prevent crime or protect citizens, they usually show up after the fact.

And remember, there's always the use of weapons for hunting. Having and using weapons is as natural growing food and eating. It's just the way things are. Governments had very little to do with it. Except now, of course, with frightening results as the Australian experience shows.

Thank god that Ashcroft (Attorney General of US Justice Department) had the good sense to reaffirm his and our commitment as a nation to the constitutional right of CITIZENS to bear arms.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 09:41:45 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Annie git yer guns... OT
Message:
Gerry,

I understand your point, but I was thinking of the UK where deaths from firearms are extremely low. Would you advocate the UK adopting the US model?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:40:20 (EDT)
From: bill-July 19 1966, old man
Email: None
To: All
Subject: rawat died slipping on soap in shower nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 03:39:18 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: bill-July 19 1966, old man
Subject: To HAPPY please respond
Message:
Glad you brought this up.

Someone called Happy posted about this. The threa is at http://www.ex-premie.org/archives/archive.cgi?arch=f3a42c#P0U9E?arch=f3a42c

Happy said that

Date: Thurs, Mar 18, 1999 at 11:32:45 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Hans Ji slipped on soap
Message:
About Hans Ji Maharaj's death:

According to what I heard, from what I consider reliable sources,
Hans Ji slipped on a piece of soap in his bathroom, fell and hit his head. That's why his death came suddenly and unexpectedly.
M. has also confirmed that the death came suddenly - he was called home from school.

Anyway, it's fairly certain that Hans Ji Maharaj did NOT 'leave his mortal body in perfect peace', as stated in DLM/EV books
and films.

I find it very hard to believe that Mom should have poisoned her husband. Very unbelievable. I do trust the story about the
soap.

But I do think that her choice was BBJ as satguru, and certain mahatmas - among them, Gurucharanand - wanted Prem Pal
instead. I remember once having heard Gurucharanand mention that he actually had HEARD Hans Ji say that Prem Pal was to
be his successor. Whether it is true, or just something Gurucharanand let out, I don't know, and I guess nobody does.

So Happy, I think NOW a good time to tell us your sources.

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 21:58:46 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: It was POISONED Soap ! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:42:53 (EDT)
From: As true as your
Email: None
To: bill-July 19 1966, old man
Subject: DNA/Claudia theory NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 21:42:02 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: As true as your
Subject: I have rawat dna, get some navlara stuff. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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