Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Jul 23, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Abi -:- Dear EV Monitors -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:06:42 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:29:15 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:26:38 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:44:48 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Suggestion to all - and to Abi... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:44:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carlos -:- Don't risk making it tougher for Abi by -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:01:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:57:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:14:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Agreed, Nige -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:36:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Agreed, Nige and Francesca -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:54:08 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E. (Amsterdam) -:- Dear Abi -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:34:08 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Not so fast -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:59:14 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Dear Bjorn. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:16:27 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Fuck off Bjorn -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:36:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel Dettmers -:- Marianne, get real -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:57:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Marianne, get real -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:19:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey, Mr anonymous. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:22:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I agree (s)he's a shit stirrer, but -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 01:02:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You may be right Carlos. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:12:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- Yo Charles! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:19:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Not quite, sherlock -:- Re: Yo Charles! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:05:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- Whassup chuck? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:40:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ I agree -:- that totally sucks from a so called 'lawyer' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:50:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Prem Pal Jagdeo -:- Bjorn's got a Boner! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ David -:- Re: Marianne, get real -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Who the hell are you? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- And who are you? Perhaps you are new here... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:18:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- This oerson is also probably Bjorne. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:41:26 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:32:08 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- speaking out as self-protectionprotection -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:21:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Sounds like VERY unprofessional behaviour to me... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:01:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- it's just a bit creepy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:05:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Attempts to sway your father? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:49:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Abi, the more I think about this... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:54:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David Whitla -:- Too late redcrow demon -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Tell whoever you like, David. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:47:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ DW -:- Thanks Nigel -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:20:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Thanks Nigel -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thanks for flame-free communication, David... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:54:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DW -:- yes, I agree -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Valerio's webpage -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:00:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Valerio's webpage -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:51:21 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: Dear EV Monitors -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:28:02 (EDT)

Enjoyinglife Reporter -:- Knowledge Session in South Florida -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:57:29 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Do you mean 'Lack of Knowledge' session -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:18:12 (EDT)
__ timmi -:- Re: Knowledge Session in South Florida -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:16:28 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- a Kabir primer for pwks!!! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:10:39 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Internet free speech site -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:08:32 (EDT)
__ Daisy -:- Re: Internet free speech site -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:51:52 (EDT)
__ __ Daisy -:- To the person who emaile me -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:45:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ David -:- A way to post with no trace -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:36:13 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- To Daisy -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:38:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: To Daisy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:49:28 (EDT)
__ __ SF -:- anonymity -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:51:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: anonymity -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:48:26 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- I'll respect your anomymity -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:33:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Your advice -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:28:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Your advice -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:10:05 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Thanks Daisy -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:58:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: Thanks Daisy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:43:13 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Sir Dave is into you having your rights -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:59:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: Sir Dave is into you having your rights -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Cases -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:59:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daisy -:- Thanks, Francesca. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:28:17 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- Anonymity is respected here -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:03:06 (EDT)
__ such -:- Internet free speech site [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:39:29 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- Don't follow leaders; check your parking meter... [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:40:22 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- Cheatananda's 'chump change' vs. miragey's riches -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:33:31 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- Swami C. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:48:37 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- interesting stuff -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:47:21 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- My quick note to the Oregonian reporter -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:20:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: My quick note to the Oregonian reporter -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:07:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Duh? Neglect question inabove post -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:22:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- Good, the word's getting out! (nt [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:37:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dave -:- No need for that -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:04:52 (EDT)

Patrick Wilson -:- I'm just getting it out of me system!! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: I'm just getting it out of me system!! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:49:06 (EDT)
__ __ SF -:- I remember that quote -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:32:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: I remember that quote -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:55:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- Yeah, right = vile! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:10:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SF -:- gotta agree -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:01:17 (EDT)

wolfie -:- Event in Mainz -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:43:57 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Thanks wolfie -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:32:30 (EDT)
__ such -:- 'Without this guy you never can come home'-yikes [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:14:58 (EDT)

Nige and Moley -:- Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:27:18 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Thanks for dropping a line -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:33:45 (EDT)
__ SF (selene) -:- hi to both of you -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:36:37 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Hi Nigel and Moley -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:21:11 (EDT)
__ bill -:- We will repost many of your gems over time -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:08:31 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Best 2 U Moley/Nige :) (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:16:49 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- You mean you two actually got a life? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:36 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:40 (EDT)
__ __ Nige -:- BTW: ckeck your mailbox.. nt -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:14:40 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Re: 'cause' -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:16:44 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Good to hear trom you. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:08:04 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks, well said... -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:13:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- To all the folks who posted above -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:34:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: To all the folks who posted above -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:05:08 (EDT)

Dave -:- Please read this -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:31:50 (EDT)
__ Doesn't open another window -:- Re: Please read this -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:13:52 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- OK try it now and -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:46:57 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Don't click that link -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:18:36 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- It should open a new browser window -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:43:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: It should open a new browser window -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:46:55 (EDT)

???? -:- can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:14:22 (EDT)
__ bill -:- sure but we look for those we know first. [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:10:22 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- No, from now on it's got to be '????' (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:41:13 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:26 (EDT)

gerry -:- Amesterdam is Bjorn Again -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:33:01 (EDT)
__ Paris -:- So what? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:12 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: So what? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Paris -:- Re: So what? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- More Bjorn/Bongo/Paris, etc. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:44:38 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- and Klown... ? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:33:18 (EDT)

Deborah -:- FA: Bug in software? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:51:13 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: FA: Bug in software?? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:20:58 (EDT)
__ __ Dave -:- Looks OK to me -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:53 (EDT)

Jeffrey Donner's post -:- A Metaphor -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:18:26 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Jeff, you comin back?....nt -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:54:01 (EDT)
__ __ Jeffrey Donner -:- Re: Jeff, you comin back?....nt -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:25 (EDT)

Malibu Mole -:- Event in WORCESTER , MASS -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:18 (EDT)
Yeah, right -:- Utter Bullshit -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:56:18 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Speaking of utter bullshit, Yeah, right -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:11:48 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Sorry, yeah, right -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:26:49 (EDT)
__ bill -:- relax Mr Yeah, -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:24:25 (EDT)
__ __ Way's post on talking -:- to a premie. Not a war. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Wolfie's post on a talk -:- with a premie -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ And Deborah's post on the -:- subject, again, Not a war. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:32:59 (EDT)
__ SF -:- A threat? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:15:09 (EDT)
__ __ Yeah right -:- So...do you? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- What's this about my balls? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 01:52:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: What's this about my balls? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:40:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: What's this about my balls? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:52:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: What's this about my balls? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:46:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Shirts? - Crap analogy, Dep.. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: What's this about my balls?? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:53:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- OK the forum is a little less without Jim (nt) [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:25:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- It's cooler than that. -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:57:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill I propose a name for -:- this forum, Sir David's Luv Club -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:00:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ SF -:- I speak for myself -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:49:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Yeah -:- Re: I speak --and cookies -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:13:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: I speak --and cookies -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:04:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Great post Joey ... -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:36:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Re: I speak --and cookies -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:58:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ You talking about aliases? -:- you stupid stupid person -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:23:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ So what ? -:- Re: you stupid stupid person -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:55:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ I don't care what crappy MSDOS -:- you're using. I said Stop using MK's handle -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:47:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- Re: yoyou has a posse ? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:37:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ So what ... -:- David? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:01:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SF -:- if you agreed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:24:51 (EDT)

Joe -:- To David A, it's a personal thing -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:05:05 (EDT)
__ Richard II -:- It is a personal thing indeed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:42:07 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- It's not so complicated -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:05:16 (EDT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Re: It is a personal thing indeed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:55:26 (EDT)

Selene / SF -:- Off topic and annoyed -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:27:06 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Re: Off topic and chuckling -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ SF -:- ok will email -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:00:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Why am I not surprised to find out who SC is? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:46:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene/ SF -:- and a cheery good morning to you -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:14:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- yea and -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:30:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SF -:- my ass isn't fat -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:34:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- How sweet the sound -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:43:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- is that bliss not working for you ? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:38:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ There's other ways of -:- communicating too -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 02:10:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MrT -:- krusty kommunications -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 04:50:42 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji TV Broadcast -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:06 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Great post ! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:28 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Hey Krusty! Read this one -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:46:50 (EDT)
__ Krusty the Klown -:- Re: Hey Deborah, read this one -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:24:27 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey honey pie -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ me again-forgot to mention -:- Krusty is a CLOWN with K -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:49:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sebastion Cole -:- yes, truth is funny Debutante -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:56:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr D -:- Or do they? -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)


Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:06:42 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
Dear Elan Vital minitors,

can you please pass on a message to Dr Valerio Pascotto for me?

I appreciate that Dr Pascotto felt a need to call my father from Canada last night and have a long 'premie to premie' chat about me. What I find very upsetting is the way that Dr Pascotto continually tries to position me as part of an evil force which is bent on ruining Maharaji. Please tell Dr Pascotto that any attempt to drive any sort of wedge between me and my father on the grounds that I no-longer follow Maharaji will fail. Blood is thicker than devotion.
If Dr Pascotto wishes to tell me (again) that I am part of an evil international force then I would appreciate it if he said so directly to me and not behind my back to my father. He has my contact details.

I think I've made myself clear.

Thanks EV monitors.

Best wishes,

Abi who will continue to speak truth to power until Jagdeo is accounted for

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:29:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
Hi Abi,

I admire your fortitude. Rock on!

You asked him to tell you to your face, how about having him put it in writing?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:26:38 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
apparently his email is valpas@eos.org

(thanks to Nigel who found his website, and a picture of him).

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:44:48 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
CQ: I peeked at his page. Thank you for the link. I recognize that mug. On one page he writes:

The behavior of frogs offers an interesting analogy for business. Thrown in a pot of scalding water frogs are able to survive by quickly jumping out. However, if placed in lukewarm water that is being heated, they adjust to the rising temperature until they boil to death.

Gee, one word could change that to:

The behavior of frogs offers an interesting analogy for CULTS. Thrown in a pot of scalding water frogs are able to survive by quickly jumping out. However, if placed in lukewarm water that is being heated, they adjust to the rising temperature until they boil to death.

M wants people to ease into M & K like a warm bath, . EPO is apparently raising the temperature of the water. n'est-ce pas?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:44:43 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: cq
Subject: Suggestion to all - and to Abi...
Message:
I don't think it is a good idea for anyone to go emailing Valerio unless they either have a personal involvement in the Jagdeo situation or else know for sure that Jagdeo's victims are happy about what you are writing to him.

Abi - I hope I haven't made this a longer thread than you wanted it to be. Sorry, if that is what has happened - but I just wanted to reassure you there wasn't anything to worry about vis-a-vis the perceived 'power' of psychologists. Things have moved on a long way since One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (though not nearly far enough, in my book).

I think for the most part people are very supportive and not about to do anything counter-productive. The Cat and I even had our first ever civil exchange of posts - so who says miracles don't happen..? ;)

Lower down you wrote to me: 'I don't know what to do'. I think just posting your initial thread here was more than enough for the time being. Interested parties will take your comments on board, I am sure..

The rest of us should maybe shut the fuck up and do nothing more than offer support where needed. I don't think it is really our business to interfere in any way unless someone requests our help.

Best,
Nige (the anti-psychologist's psychologist who knows where they are coming from...)

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 00:01:03 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Don't risk making it tougher for Abi by
Message:
I don't think it is a good idea for anyone to go emailing Valerio unless they either have a personal involvement in the Jagdeo situation or else know for sure that Jagdeo's victims are happy about what you are writing to him.

Abi - I hope I haven't made this a longer thread than you wanted it to be. Sorry, if that is what has happened - but I just wanted to reassure you there wasn't anything to worry about vis-a-vis the perceived 'power' of psychologists. Things have moved on a long way since One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (though not nearly far enough, in my book).

I think for the most part people are very supportive and not about to do anything counter-productive. The Cat and I even had our first ever civil exchange of posts - so who says miracles don't happen..? ;)

Lower down you wrote to me: 'I don't know what to do'. I think just posting your initial thread here was more than enough for the time being. Interested parties will take your comments on board, I am sure..

The rest of us should maybe shut the fuck up and do nothing more than offer support where needed. I don't think it is really our business to interfere in any way unless someone requests our help.

Best,
Nige (the anti-psychologist's psychologist who knows where they are coming from...)


---

trying to help her , especially without her input and aproval. I speak with some 1st hand experiance; I am the father (step-father, technically, but I love her and her sister as much as I do my natural daughter) of a victim of a different pedophile. The issue of what M knew and when he knew it is one thing. But being suportive to Abi, and not risking generating further problems for her is paramount (sp?), IMO.

Guess ourv agreeing proves what you said about miracles, Nigel.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:57:42 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi...
Message:
I totally agree, Nigel. My intention in giving Pascotto's email address to Abi was so that she could, if she wanted, make sure that her communication actually reached him, rather than having to rely on any EV monitors to forward her message.

Perhaps I ought to have also said that the email address was meant to be for her use and her's alone.

Personally I wouldn't dream of getting involved unless Abi specifically requested me to. Which is unlikely.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:14:44 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Suggestion to all - and to Abi...
Message:
Thanks Nigel. I agree that contacting Valerio would be inappropriate.

But it will be interesting to see if he contacts me now. I just wish he'd lay off my father. You see they don't want me to post or be at all involved with epo or this forum. So they try and put presure on my father to put pressure on me to stay away from the 'dark force'. Very nasty levels of manipulation going on which have been pretty upsetting.

best

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:36:28 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Agreed, Nige
Message:
Dear folks,

People who are not involved in this situation (i.e. are not Jagdeo victims) should not bother Valerio. It is one thing for us to post our ideas on a bulletin board.

Just my two cents. I didn't want anyone to bother Charles Glassner either. This is up to Abi and Susan and any other sexual abuse victims of Jagdeo to deal with on their own, in their own way. But we can be supportive, and I support Abi in whatever she decides to do about this longstanding situation.

bests, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:54:08 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Agreed, Nige and Francesca
Message:
Dear folks,

People who are not involved in this situation (i.e. are not Jagdeo victims) should not bother Valerio. It is one thing for us to post our ideas on a bulletin board.

Just my two cents. I didn't want anyone to bother Charles Glassner either. This is up to Abi and Susan and any other sexual abuse victims of Jagdeo to deal with on their own, in their own way. But we can be supportive, and I support Abi in whatever she decides to do about this longstanding situation.

bests, f


---

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:34:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Dear Abi
Message:
Dear Abi
For personal reasons your story (and the story of Susan) upset me. This is a personal thing I have explained it before, but I am not going into that again. You have called me a creep, and others have made even more outrageous accusations. I will not comment that either.
However I also have been the victim of crimes, and a few years ago I was the victim of severe violence. The guy who did it went free, due to the legal system and witnesses that lied.
When I experienced this I started lobbying the minister of justice and members of the parliament. My objective was to increase the rights of victims of violence. It seems that I succeeded in some extent and I received letters from the office of the minister of laws that stated some laws would be proposed. One law was proposed that improved some of the rights for victims, an also the sum of compensation was increased from 200 000 till 1 million. (NOK) Recently there are also suggested laws that makes it possible to have your case re-evaluated, and another one that makes it possible for victims to be given compensation even if the accused is not found guilty.

Probably due to the fact that one organisation “The association of victims of violence”, liked my lobbying, they assigned me to write a document regarding a hearing at the parliament about the proposed law of paying compensation to victims of crimes such as rape, violence and paedophile. I took the assignment quite seriously and made a comprehensive research.

In my research I discovered that in average only about 20 % of reported crimes in my country ends with a sentence for the accused in the area of rape, violence and paedophile. I also argued that the rights of the accused are clearly documented in the laws, but on the other hand the rights of the victims have been stolen in the process. Thus the society the laws of punishments that in the first place, was made to protect the citizens and see that justice would happen, had run away from this responsibility. (My research also uncovered a lot of other amazing things.) The reason for me to mention this is to tell that I have some knowledge about these things even though I have a very limited knowledge of laws and especially in your country..

IMO, even though I feel empathy for your case, I think you should try to see realities on the practice of law. Let us assume that I don’t ‘know the seriousness of the crime you were the victim of. I think however you should notice the following:
* In the eyes of the law there is a big difference between penetration and fondling.
* The fact that it took 25 years before a crime was reported to the police weakens your case a lot. (Anth says he reported the case, but personally I doubt that – if anyone challenges that, I will explain why I doubt it)
* Only a victim of a crime or relatives can report a crime. (EV has no right to do that)
* A prosecutor will only take a case to court if he / she is convinced that the accused will be punished
* The fact that the ex-premie site has used this case as a tool to destroy Ms reputation and that the accused has not been chased, will weaken your case in the eyes of the law.
* Suggestions like reporting Ms representative to his union will also weaken your case against the accused.
*According to international laws of Human Rights no one is guilty until judged. (That makes a lot of statements here against this law) and what has happened here also weakens your case.

I don’t really know what kind of advise to give you. Obviously, IMO, you suffer from posttraumatic sufferings. I wrote with the help of a friend a piece about the cure of such sufferings in F5, but the FA deleted my story. I also think it would be wise to read “rejoice in existence” which is the email message form M (Elan Vital) today.
Anyway I wish you the best.
Bjørn E.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:59:14 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Subject: Not so fast
Message:
* Only a victim of a crime or relatives can report a crime. (EV has no right to do that)

This isn't true in the USA, or at least in California. As to child abuse, in particular, a practicing therapist or medical professional is REQUIRED to report even suspected cases of child abuse, and anyone with information is allowed to report it to the authorities. So, Elan Vital not only could, but should report it, as should Valario, whom I understand is a practicing, licensed, therapist in California.

* A prosecutor will only take a case to court if he / she is convinced that the accused will be punished

I don't know about Norway, but this isn't true here either. A prosecutor with normally take a case if he or she thinks there is a reasonable chance of a conviction. Punishment is often left up to the judge, although that is decreasingly the case in the prison industrial complex that is the USA.

And as for 'victims rights' that has been parlayed into a 'three-strikes' law in California that means people can get 25 years to life for second offense shoplifting or burglary. Accordingly, California has perhaps the harshest criminal penalty system in the entire world, and spends more on prisons than higher education. We now have SEVEN times more people in prison in this state than we had 20 years ago, with a crime rate that has been steadily declining over the same period. It's nuts.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:16:27 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Subject: Dear Bjorn.
Message:
Bjorn,

Can you remember all the shit you caused when you began posting about this sort of stuff before? You ended up upsetting lots of people and getting banned from the forum.

All sorts of your personal problems intruded into your posts and your stuff eventually became offensive.

Now it looks like you want to ride around the houses one more time.

Please take your personal problems to a place where someone can help you with them. This is not the place. You will only end up upsetting people and getting upset yourself, like you did last time.

Sincerely,

Anth

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:36:50 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bjørn E. (Amsterdam)
Subject: Fuck off Bjorn
Message:
Leave Abi alone. No one here cares what you have to say about this. You are obsessed with Abi. Your posts verge on cyber stalking. Go see your therapist.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:57:40 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, get real
Message:
First, the guy is a victim of violent crime, and you tell him to 'fuck off.'

What's the matter, crime victims only have rights to 'speak to power' if they support YOUR AGENDA? Why doesn't his pain count? Because you don't like him? He had it coming? Is that what you are saying?

And given that you make a living defending murderers, rapists and drug dealers, and god knows what else, your hypocrisy is showing. Poor Abi gets your love and support...only as long as she plays into your agenda. Everyone else is told 'fuck off.' Nice, very nice.

When are you going to abandon her? When you're done with her?

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 13:19:46 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Re: Marianne, get real
Message:
Hi Richard 11 (just a wild guess)

does it comfort you to think that I am the passive victim of the ex-premie community?

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:22:51 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Hey, Mr anonymous.
Message:
Why are you scared to use your name here? What are you frightened of?

You really are an anonymous premie shit-stirrer. A sneaky character who shouts abuse from behind a wall, but won't come out and put his money where his mouth is?

What do you know about Bjorns problems?

What do you know about the problems he caused before?

What's your interest in this matter premie-ji?

Wouldn't your time be better spent poking yourself in the eyes, sticking your thumbs in your ears, or sucking some snot?

Anth the human being.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 01:02:36 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: AJW
Subject: I agree (s)he's a shit stirrer, but
Message:
Why are you scared to use your name here? What are you frightened of?

You really are an anonymous premie shit-stirrer. A sneaky character who shouts abuse from behind a wall, but won't come out and put his money where his mouth is?

What do you know about Bjorns problems?

What do you know about the problems he caused before?

What's your interest in this matter premie-ji?

Wouldn't your time be better spent poking yourself in the eyes, sticking your thumbs in your ears, or sucking some snot?

Anth the human being.


---

(s)he may not be a premie. A lot of crazies who surf the net might like it if they found a forum they could rile up easily. And, let's face it, that WAS one characteristic of F5, and looks like it might become one of here, too.

Not saying it couldn't be a premie, it certainly is not paranoia to think some of my fellow students might be that sick. But I saw nothing that shouted out 'sick premie ' to me in that post; just sick and pathetic human.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:12:26 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: You may be right Carlos.
Message:
Maybe you're right Carlos, and it wasn't a premie.

I might be getting jaded in my old age.

Anth, fuck off you bastards and leave me alone. And stop following me everywhere. I know your game.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:19:55 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Yo Charles!
Message:
Your browser is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:05:38 (EDT)
From: Not quite, sherlock
Email: None
To: MrT
Subject: Re: Yo Charles!
Message:
You opined Your browser is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)

Ooopsie, back to computer skool.. That aint a unique ID. That fits, oh, about a kabillion computers.

Thanks for playing Dodge The Question. Why are U so interestd in anonymous postings ONLY when they disgree with you? Read the linx on this page about free speech whydoncha. Or this only when hate is on the menu?

And you're about 150 miles too far East, by the whey...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:40:16 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Not quite, sherlock
Subject: Whassup chuck?
Message:
You opined Your browser is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)

Ooopsie, back to computer skool.. That aint a unique ID. That fits, oh, about a kabillion computers.

Thanks for playing Dodge The Question. Why are U so interestd in anonymous postings ONLY when they disgree with you? Read the linx on this page about free speech whydoncha. Or this only when hate is on the menu?

And you're about 150 miles too far East, by the whey...


---

Your browser type is Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; DIL0001021)

heh!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:50:04 (EDT)
From: I agree
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: that totally sucks from a so called 'lawyer'
Message:
you should excuse yourself from the case immediately with that insane attitude trowards a sincere witness
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
From: Prem Pal Jagdeo
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Bjorn's got a Boner!
Message:
Great post, Bjorn! Fondling...penetration...it's all so exciting!

P.S. Are you still having sexual feelings for five year old girls?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:37 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Re: Marianne, get real
Message:
Use another name other than Jean-michel Dettmers otherwise your posts will be deleted.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:04 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: Re: Who the hell are you?
Message:
Whoever you are,

Fuck off to you too. You come here using variations on the names of two REAL individuals and have the nerve to call Marianne a hypocrite!

I personally don't believe anything Bjorn says because he has an abnormal interest in the Jagdeo issues, particularly concerning Abi and Susan.

As for abandoning people, what about your guru? He's completely abandoned the victims of Jagdeo and the ex-premies don't like it one bit.

So, think before you throw accusations and insults toward anyone here. Abi is telling the truth. Bjorn is a troll, a creep.

EV monitors take note: the Jagdeo issue IS NOT going away. That's right. It ain't so!

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:18:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel Dettmers
Subject: And who are you? Perhaps you are new here...
Message:
Hi JMD,

Perhaps you don't know the history of Bjorn's posting record here over the past couple of years?

Both Abi and Susan have felt either spooked or intimidated by Bjorn's prurient obsession with Jagdeo's offences (Bjorn's intentions or sincerity are irrelevant if the effect is to cause upset - wouldn't you agree?). For that reason alone he has been repeatedly asked to stop by various FAs as a condition of posting on the forum. He frequently returns to ask the same questions over and over (this particular post is not an extreme example).

And in what sense is Bjorn's posting here anything to do with 'speaking to power'? Your post makes no sense to me.

BTW: Abi has repeatedly stated that she has never felt used by anyone here to further any other agenda besides bringing Jagdeo to justice. Most premies seem to accept her word on this, and I think you should too. To do otherwise is patronising in the extreme.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:41:26 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: This oerson is also probably Bjorne.
Message:
Either way they are both teal sickos.

Love Jethro

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:32:08 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
And this man is actually registered as a professional psychologist in the state of California - that is a terrifying thought!
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:21:53 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: speaking out as self-protectionprotection
Message:
And there are moments when I get terrified of what they are capable of. I don't like living with that. Speaking out is my only form of self-protection.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:01:42 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Abi
Subject: Sounds like VERY unprofessional behaviour to me...
Message:
I would be very surprised if Valerio is working in a 'professional' capacity, ie. employed by the cult as a psychologist. And if he is, such behaviour in regard to an abuse victim who isn't his client could lead to big trouble if his professional association got to hear about it. (Bad enough even if his involvement here is merely a form of 'service' - or some other freelance paid capacity for Elan Vital).

I wouldn't be too worried, Abi (ie. about Valerio might be capable of). Provided you keep making things public, I would think the guy has a lot to lose in regard to his profession credentials if he oversteps certain ethical mark - and I think he might have already done that... (EV monitors please note!) Yes, I think speaking out is by far your best form of self-protection, Abi - and there's loads of us here who admire you for doing so and would help in any way we could.

If you felt so inclined you would be perfectly entitled to contact whatever professional body he is involved with - and I think you would be safe to do so without fear of their ganging up on you. They would throw the bloody book at him, I would have thought.

Best of luck Abi,
Nige

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:05:40 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: it's just a bit creepy
Message:
Thanks Nigel,

I'm just really fed up with it all. Fed up with the evasions, the double-talk, the attempt to sway my father, the whole sordid and lengthy process. It really gives me the creeps. Not sure what to do really.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:49:28 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Attempts to sway your father?
Message:
What is Valario attempting to sway your father to do? To convince you to do something? To convince your father to cut you off because you are part of an 'evil group?' What is Valario attempting to get your father to do?
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:54:56 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Abi, the more I think about this...
Message:
..the more I am certain there are already grounds for contacting Dr. P's professional association. His involvement with you and your father is entirely related to a serious claim of sexual abuse by another employee of the people hiring the Doctor's services. From the sound of this phone call his conduct here is grossly unethical.

I have work colleagues better-placed to advise me here. Email me on above address if you'd like me to investigate. (Though understandable if you felt it better not to stir things up until you know what EV's next moves are going to be...)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:46 (EDT)
From: David Whitla
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Too late redcrow demon
Message:
I'm afraid you already have stirred 'things' up. Guess that's what too much thinking does. Your post has already flown out of the window to far off lands. Maybe re -read it again in a rational state of mind.

And then prepare to eat it, well seared and served with hot chilli.

Silly boy, should have left well alone. There ain't no heroes in cyberspace, but plenty of shmucks.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:47:30 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: David Whitla
Subject: Tell whoever you like, David.
Message:
Abi posted some worrying information here to the effect that a Doctor Valerio Pascotto, a psychologist and child counsellor apparently tasked by EV with investigating some serious abuse claims against Mahatma Jagdeo has been telephoning her father (NB: rather than Abi herself - who anyway is NOT even his client) to discuss the case and warn of her involvement with 'an international conspiracy' of former cult members.

She is obviously worried, so I suggested she contact Dr Pascotto's professional association, since Dr Pascotto has made no attempts to contact Abi directly, so it would seem. They could assess the situation and do whatever they see fit. That is what professional associations are for, right?

But yes, it certainly does look unethical to me. I have simply commented on certain information presented here. By all means challenge that information if you know something to be incorrect, but I stand by my comments.

(So please send this post to anyone you like, anywhere in the world. I am sure there are many people who might be interested.)

BTW: I don't really believe you have sent my earlier post anywhere, David. But, if you have, I am sure there are many people here interested in knowing who you sent it to and what you wrote.

Was it Valerio? If so, perhaps you could ask him to email me. (I would be happy to talk to him off-forum - or anyone else for that matter. I would rather not discuss this further here because of Abi saying in her post above she is getting tired of it. Not a good time for Catweasel games, I don't think.)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:20:38 (EDT)
From: DW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks Nigel
Message:
For clearing up your motivation at least. Regarding VP, I'd suggest the reason he didn't contact Abi is as you say because she is NOT even his client. In my view it would be highly unethical TO contact her. So straight away we have two opposing views! I haven't sent your post anywhere and have no intention of doing so. But you know the net and public forums.

Abi saying in her post above she is getting tired of it (by 'it' I presume she means the forum 'debates' on this subject) just doesn't wash at all. If that were the case then the VERY LAST place you would mention it would be on a public internet chatroom where you know pertfectly well it will cause plenty of waves (as we have already seen). Emails, phone calls, letters, depositions, registered mail, whatever, to the relevent people, yes, but posting to THIS SITE? Fire off your slings and arrows girls but it doesn't add up, no matter how you crunch the numbers or spin the words. Tired of the tongues wagging? Sorry, but the bold capital lettered heading on the first post of this thread tells a very different tale.
respectfully,
David

BTW. I notice the Cybercops on LG have gotcha, you cheeky sod!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:06 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: DW
Subject: Re: Thanks Nigel
Message:
What I am weary of is Elan Vital's reluctance to actually DO anything about Jagdeo.

Does that makes things clear for you?

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:54:24 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: DW
Subject: Thanks for flame-free communication, David...
Message:
David:

Abi can better answer what you see as an apparent contradiction in whether or not she is 'tired of it', than I can. But as I see it, she feels a need to keep things public as a form of self-protection - which is what she posted above. At the same time I imagine she either tires of being the subject of endless forum discussions, or tires of EV's endless failure to address the matter properly. Either way, there's no big contradiction that I can see. I am sure she is well and truly sick of Bjorn's attentions, that's for sure.

As to your comment about 'the net and public forums' - I know perfectly well this is a public place (else I wouldn't have been typing things like 'EV monitors please note', would I?) And I have certainly nobody to fear (half my work colleagues know of my cult past and the other half couldn't care less) and if you are thinking legally I think most people would say my post was 'fair comment'.

As to other psychologists I know - they'd probably be interested in offering opinions on Valerio's conduct here. As you say, it may be inappropriate for him to personally approach any of Jagdeo's victims, but that does not make it appropriate to contact their nearest and dearest in a manner that might reasonably be interpreted as 'warning her off', especially where he is personally involved in an investigation. I don't know about ethical guidelines in America - just the UK - that's why I offered to find out.

Joy above even suggests Valerio is bound to report all abuse cases he becomes aware of. That sounds a bit unlikely unless it was his own client, but he must be treading some kind of fine line here, wouldn't you say?

Thanks for using your real name,
Nige

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:54 (EDT)
From: DW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: yes, I agree
Message:
I think Joe asked a pertinent question, being 'what exactly did V say in his trans Atlantic call'? Then I think, shit, what business is it of mine? I really don't know but as you can gather, my inclination is to leave well alone. I found the VP website very intimidating. Guess that's what ex hippie muso artist writers will always think of such calculated corporate claptrap.

There was a story on 60 Minutes here in Oz about a notorious pedeophile who they finally caught and caged. I was thinking of A and S and hoping that for godsake something will get done for them. It's my view that the cogs of justice are turning slowly and surely behind the scenes. I believe patience will win the day and that we shouldn't discuss it here anymore. I don't want to sound flippant but do you think there's a possibility that the delay (if that's what it is) could be fuelled by a general compassion for this sick old fella who has fucked up so badly that the actual realisation of it might actually...you know, duff him?
Ah, the wondering mind...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 09:00:04 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Valerio's webpage
Message:
Here is how the good doctor likes to present himself to the public.

(I should add that this guy only has the SAME NAME as Dr.V.P. - I cannot say for sure that he IS the same person.)
[ Dr Valerio Pascotto ]

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:51:21 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Valerio's webpage
Message:
Looks like he's the same guy, Nigel, and I hope Abi can get some of his decidedly unethical advice in writing (as evidence, if need be).

Here's another site which has an article he and Timothy Gallwey wrote called 'All for one'. Both that site and the one you found describe Dr Pascotto as the founder of 'Effective Organizational Systems'.

Unt here's a veeeery interestink quote from ze gud Herr Doktor:

'The behavior of frogs offers an interesting analogy for business. Thrown in a pot of scalding water frogs are able to survive by quickly jumping out. However, if placed in lukewarm water that is being heated, they adjust to the rising temperature until they boil to death. Business often parallels the behavior of frogs. If a business maintains an awareness of its strengths and needs, employees continue to develop and learn while the business stays competitive and survives. If managers lull themselves into doing things the usual way, they will not notice the rising temperature until it is too late.'

From Dr. Valerio Pascotto's
Website.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:28:02 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Dear EV Monitors
Message:
Has Pascotto ever heard of 'alienation of affection?' It seems to me he is teetering on the edge.

Can you believe what jerks these EV guys are?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:57:29 (EDT)
From: Enjoyinglife Reporter
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Knowledge Session in South Florida
Message:
Knowledge Sessions in South Florida

Ghandi, former leader of a newly independent India and a Miami local propagation team member, happily announced Sunday night, 1 July at the Radisson Deauville Last Resort and Unbelievably Tacky Deco Hotel in Miami Beach, to the four people remaining after the 8:00 p.m. scheduled showing of the broadcast of Maharaji in Portland, Oregon, that 73 profoundly stupid people were granted the gift of Knowledge. The Knowledge sessions took place in Miami Beach in both English and Spanish. The aspirants receiving Knowledge came from as far away as 2 miles from such communities as Hallandale and North Miami Beach, and one even came from as far south as Coral Gables. One aspirant came all the way over from Fort Lauderdale to receive the gift; she expressed her profound disappointment, both with knowledge, and the traffic on I-95 for her return home.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:18:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Enjoyinglife Reporter
Subject: Do you mean 'Lack of Knowledge' session
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:16:28 (EDT)
From: timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Enjoyinglife Reporter
Subject: Re: Knowledge Session in South Florida
Message:
Whoever you are, thank you so much for this! I desperately needed the laugh! Bless you.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:10:39 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a Kabir primer for pwks!!!
Message:
'Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu.' -- Kabir
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:08:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Internet free speech site
Message:
Just found Public Citizen's internet free speech site when reading an article about a recent bulletin board 'anonymous poster' case that came down in NJ appellate court. The link is above.

The article about the NJ case is here:
http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/167851.html

As you can see in the article on the NJ case, in one case the poster wasn't outed, and in the other they were. In both cases, someone had to have a good enough case to get a court to issue a subpena.

What did Bob Dylan say years ago: 'Keep your nose clean, and always carry a lightbulb.' :C)

bests, f
[ Internet Free Speech ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:51:52 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: lael2@bigfoot.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Internet free speech site
Message:
There is so much I want to say, and I feel I need to be anonymous. Yesterday when I first saw Forum 6 I thought that maybe I could be safe here. I have lots of reasons for wanting to be anonymous. I don't know if they're good reasons or not. I feel I can't speak right now unless I can be anonymous. Some of my reasons:

--I'm shy
--I don't want to expose anything about anyone else (For example, if I say, 'My best friend did ______' and you know who I am, then you also know something about my best friend.
--What if my family (parents and brothers and sisters) read here?? I don't want them to know so much about me right now
--Each of us requires a different level of privacy. Why don't we simply acknowledge and respect that?
--Maybe somebody doesn't like me and would be happy to see that I'm suffering.
--Other people might judge me. I don't like being judged. I simply want to say how I'm affected, how I feel, how I'm trying to deal with my feelings and my current life. And I'm happy for feedback, but I just don't trust that everyone would be kind and I don't want too have to deal with 'everybody' knowing how I think and what I'm dealing with internally. And on the internet, you don't even know who knows what about you, since you don't know who reads.

So these are just some of the reasons I would love to remain anonymous, until such time as I may feel free to be me. I would like to know if that is possible and probable here.

On Forum 5 it was quite scary to see what would happen. Once a girl wrote, and Janet immediately posted something like, 'Welcome. I remember you; I went to your wedding' and gave all sorts of information about the poster--prior marriages, etc. That girl never posted again. So this is what I'm afraid of--someone will recognize me and reveal me to everyone. I've thought that giving an email address would help alleviate that possibility--then if someone is just too curious they could email me and I could respond or not.

These are my thoughts. For my own well-being I have a need to tell what I've experienced. I'm kind of bubbling over and I need to talk. I'm not sure where.

Thanks for listening.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:45:55 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: lael2202@yahoo.com
To: Daisy
Subject: To the person who emaile me
Message:
Thank you for your kind note. I find that the email address I gave you will not work except for me to receive mail--I can't respond from it. So I have set up this email account, from which I can also reply. I've composed a response to you, and need you to either (1) send an email to my new address, or (2) give me your email address. It wasn't included in your previous email. Or I could just post my response to you here on Forum 6.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:36:13 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Daisy
Subject: A way to post with no trace
Message:
Hi there Daisy. I am the forum administrator for this forum. My email address is above on this post. If you want to post something completely anonymously where there is no trace to you, you can do the following:

Email me the article you have written that you want to post on this forum.

I will then copy your email onto Windows Notepad and omit any headers or email address and reference to your email.

I will then delete your email from my Hotmail account.

Then I will post your message here (copied from my Windows Notepad copy) and the only trace to anyone will be to me. I live in the UK, by the way.

You might want to use the above method of posting something anonymously here and you won't be putting yourself at any risk. If I read something in your post to me that I think identifies you, I will tell you so and remove it with your permission.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:38:55 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: To Daisy
Message:
With straight-forward honesty like that, the name Daisy is fine with me!
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:49:28 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To Daisy
Message:
You made my day!
Daisy
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:51:24 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: anonymity
Message:
Hi
No one gets attacked only for their anonymity. It's the ones who are distuptive, people get sick of it, and eventually it all washes out.
Janet made a big mistake doing that IMO. So I would be wary as well after reading something like that.
Keep posting and talk if you need to. Exiting the cult is very hard.
I trust the FA here as much as one can trust anyone on the net. He has repeatedly shown that he protects anonymity.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:48:26 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: anonymity
Message:
Thanks, SF, for your endorsement of the FA here. It's good to know.
Daisy
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:33:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: I'll respect your anomymity
Message:
Hi Daisy,

You posed an interesting dilemma. From the short time I've been here I have witnessed outings only from disruptive and threatening premies, but your comment regarding Janet's forward welcome to a premie is a vital to our sensitivity.

I'm sure Janet did not mean or think that it would have chased her away, but the observation is astute, nonetheless.

Many times people post her, without any introduction at all, and they open fire with a comment. This is difficult. Is this person a hit and run antagonist, an EV plant, what?

Introducing yourself the way you did and stating your position is the best way to eliminate any possibility. Also, telling someone who is asking a personal or leading question can be responded to with a request that they NOT ask you that at this point.

I have corresponded with a couple of premies via email that are not quite sure How they feel. I don't pry. I don't have a desire to open people like they are a can of beans.

Human interaction on this forum is no different from human interaction on the streets only the heat is up at certain points by the very nature of our presence here.

How do you react when you tell neighbours, friends, family, and new acquaintances, let alone employers about M? Or do you? I'm sure you exercise discretion as to who you talk to, about what, when you offer personal information about your life and life choices.

That's the same type of awareness you need to have here. Some people will try and push your buttons, but they are only typing onto a cyber home page, you can walk away from a post or a pest anytime. Now practicing that, is entirely anoter story.

I'm sure you will be met with a lot of supportive people. People are not mind-readers though, so it's important to let people know where your boundaries are. You don't HAVE to explain why? It's none of our business. Hope you stick around.

We all have something to learn from each other.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:28:31 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Your advice
Message:
Deborah, thanks for your tips on how to handle onesself on internet forums. I will save your email.

About the Janet incident I mentioned, the girl in question sounded like she considered herself an ex-premie, if I remember correctly. And I don't think Janet intended to be insensitive, just chatty.

Anyway, thanks for the 'street smarts' you're passing along to me.
Daisy

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:10:05 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Daisy
Subject: Re: Your advice
Message:
Hi Daisy,

Happy that hear from you. Feel free to email if you'd like.

See above

p.s. I really the handle DAISY, it's cute.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:58:40 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Thanks Daisy
Message:
Your post was refreshing and honest in its humanity. I do hope you feel free to come here and talk. I'm already interested in what you might have to say!

People do need to be sensitive on these issues, perhaps Janet was just trying to be friendly and overstepped the boundary. This is an open forum and people tend to know each other from the past, so please feel free to reveal as little about who you are as you like.

I'm afraid a site like this does tend to attract trolls (anonymous disruptors or community con artists). There's one particular guy uses multiple aliases to harrass this site generally. Sees himself as a champion of free expression! Perhaps he's just misunderstood. But his problems with owning himself as a whole person are something else.

It's what you have to say that I'm interested in!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:43:13 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Thanks Daisy
Message:
Thank you for responding and for being interested! And for giving a definition of 'trolls.' I had gotten the gist, but I like having an exact definition. 'The Three Billy Goats Gruff' had trolls; do you remember? They stayed under the bridge and tried to capture the goats for dinner. But of course, as in all good stories, the goats outsmarted the trolls and dined on the delicious grass on the other shore. Maybe there was only one troll--I'm not sure.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:59:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Sir Dave is into you having your rights
Message:
... to post any way you please. He's the administrator of this board, and as he says in his post below, you are free to post in whatever way is best for you.

I posted those articles because anonymity has been an issue, and I thought it would give people some stuff to ponder. The Webmaster and main FA of the former Forum V also wanted to alow anons to stay anon, at their own wishes.

peace, be well, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Sir Dave is into you having your rights
Message:
Thank you, Francesca and Sir Dave. Francesca, I do not want to take the time to read the court cases you posted. If you have read them and understand them (which I doubt I could without a lot of time and concentration), would you tell me what the end result was? Who did the court decide for? Did the court find for right-to-privacy or right-to-expose? Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:59:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: Cases
Message:
Daisy:

I don't read them all either. They're very fact-driven -- i.e. each situation ends up with its own result based on all the circumstances and issues. And unless the issues are close to a situation I particular care about, no reason to wade through them.

However, for a broad generality, many of cases are brought by businesses who claim they were harmed by what an anonymous poster or poster(s) said about it on a bulletin board. And the business has be wronged enough to file a lawsuit and then issue a subpena to the ISP. It's usually big-time stuff, worth money to someone.

An anonymous poster is not usually outed just because someone complains to the ISP. But that being said, each ISP has its own policy, and the policies have evolved because of court cases and various situations that have happened to the ISP. I would imagine Hotboards is going to stay out of it, because its main business is hosting bulletin boards, and you know, people DO talk.

Hope this helps, and doesn't make it more confusing.

--bets, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:28:17 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks, Francesca.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:03:06 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Daisy
Subject: Anonymity is respected here
Message:
You can be as anonymous as you like. There is no pressure here to identify yourself, whether ex-premie or premie or merely human.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:39:29 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Internet free speech site [nt]
Message:
Don't follow leaders; check your parking meter...
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:40:22 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Don't follow leaders; check your parking meter... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:33:31 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cheatananda's 'chump change' vs. miragey's riches
Message:
Alas, it appears that the modern self-proclaimed Hindu yogi 'Masters' and saints have forgotten about the maya - which has been the downfall of many a deluded and greedy rugu. The inspiration for many a guru, Kabir, wrote:

'Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu.' -- Kabir

Currently, the US media has featured several exposes on other charismatic personality cults. The purveyors of some of these cults present patterns and behaviors which are similar to the concepts/mindsets, abuses, and experiences of many former devotees of miragey, too. Yet, for all the attention the press has given to each of these small-time charlatans, the media has generally ignored miragey ever since he stopped giving public interviews back in the 1970s.

Boy, are these reporters missing out! For instance, Cheatananda [featured herein ] is a petty pickpocket compared to miragey's lavish setup and slick operations. But I think you will appreciate noting the similarities. This greedy guru racket is a common con nowadays -- money, power/mind control over others, sex, booze, etc.

Please Read on:

The high price of enlightenment:

Ex-disciples say Swami Chetanananda leaned on his followers to pay for the trappings of his spiritual organization and for investments that failed:
Tuesday, July 17, 2001


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By Richard Read of The Oregonian staff

'Hone Ames doodled furiously in the kitchen of her Cambridge, Mass., home in 1989.
Even many years later, she still clearly recalls cradling the phone as Swami Chetanananda pressed her for more money in 1989.
'Resist,' Ames wrote in the margin.
But resistance is a slippery slope, Ames recalls Chetanananda saying: If you resist, you end up in a pit, you cannot dig out. The whole point of this spiritual practice is that you've got to commit.
Ames says the swami asked for another $62,500 to invest in the conversion of a run-down New Jersey apartment building into condominiums. Come on, Hone.
Hone. The swami coined the nickname for Ames as one of his closest insiders. He'd tease her about it. Call Hone. Hone on the range. There's no place like Hone.
Now that she's left the swami, the nickname she left behind reminds Ames of the person she says she was: Completely controlled by the man she worshipped and feared as her link to God. She says she remains traumatized by the financial losses and psychological pain she and her family suffered.
Ames, 59, still has her notes from that phone conversation with the guru Nov. 14, 1989. The words 'briar patch' and 'manifestation of fear' appear circled and underlined in the margins. The jottings reveal Ames' doubts as she financed ventures promoted by Chetanananda, the persuasive spiritual leader who now lives with his followers in a refurbished manor in Northeast Portland.
Chetanananda refused repeated requests for an interview with The Oregonian concerning finances and other issues. Last Thursday, he submitted a typed statement in response to a summary of allegations.
Chetanananda did not specifically respond to the allegation that investments he advised had resulted in losses of large sums of money for disciples and for him.
'I have never coerced anyone, period,' he wrote, in apparent reference to an allegation that he had coerced students to give him and the Nityananda Institute valuable gifts, to loan him and the institute money and to invest money to fund an opulent lifestyle.
Ames recalls bearing down on her notes that day in 1989, caught between the man she idolized and the warnings of her father and a financial adviser. She says she wanted to help the swami create a retirement fund for his assistants, whom she pitied for their low pay and lack of benefits.
The year before, Ames had invested $250,000 in the same New Jersey condo deal after what she describes as heavy pressure from the swami. She says he ostracized another disciple who declined, a fate she was anxious to avoid.
Ames deposited the initial investment in an account she held jointly with the swami and one of his assistants. A copy of the wire transfer shows that the guru, using his original name, J. Michael Shoemaker, sent the money to the bank financing the condo conversion, which was developed by the husband of a former girlfriend.
Ames provided The Oregonian with detailed documentation of investments and other transactions from 1988 to 1997, when she left the ashram.
Now Chetanananda was telling Ames they needed more money. Ames doubted him, recalling her financial adviser's prediction that New Jersey's housing market was about to dive. But, she reasoned, the adviser wasn't all-knowing like the swami.
So, on Nov. 16, 1989, bank records show, Ames deposited $62,500 into the joint account. She still has the check for that amount that the swami wrote to Executive House LP the same day.
Ames says she couldn't say no to the guru.


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'People are concerned about teachers because they're afraid they're going to get ripped off. There's no avoiding getting ripped off to some extent in this life.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded Jan. 24, 1988

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Former disciples of Chetanananda say that they and other followers showered him with gifts, including Asian artwork, camera equipment, first-class air tickets and accommodations in Hawaii's Four Seasons Hotel and other luxury hotels.
Newsletters routinely list dozens of members giving thousands of dollars a year to the institute, a tax-exempt church.
Property records show that in 1999, longtime disciple Norman Bodek signed over his Northeast Portland house to the swami's Nityananda Institute, listing it as a charitable contribution. Bodek, who has since left the swami, ran Productivity Inc. The publishing and event-planning company gave jobs to dozens of disciples and -- according to Ames -- paid the guru a monthly retainer.
Money, in addition to spiritual teachings, group meditation and sex with the guru, continues to bind disciples into the guru's inner circle, the former followers say.
Ames was by no means the swami's biggest backer. But she says she dug into her savings, spending an inheritance from her grandmother and other reserves.
Ames says that in 1987, as a college-educated resident of Bloomington, Ind., she joined Chetanananda's group after seeking his advice about her troubled marriage and her mother's declining health. Slowly, she transferred her devotion to God to the swami until she recalls seeing him as a Christlike figure.
Ames viewed Chetanananda as a 'spiritual atomic generator,' a gifted astrologer and an all-knowing sage. When he walked into the room, she felt a rush of devotion and love for the man she considered divine, often leaving her feeling faint.
She said she first invested $100,000 in one of his ventures in April 1988 after he told her about a computer program developed by disciples to pile up profits trading commodities.
Bank statements she produced show that by August, the joint-account balance sank to less than $82,000. Within a year, the balance plunged below $300.
Ames recalls the swami telephoning her at her home late that year with the bad news. She says he told her they'd lost all the money on chromium.
Ames wouldn't let herself cry.
She fought back doubts. This was a test, Ames thought. This was a chance to show that her devotion to the guru meant far more than money.

'I'll move to Portland. I'll either have enough people in that building to support it, or I'll go fly-fishing.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded in December 1992


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Ames studied documents spread across a Boston lawyer's broad kitchen table on an evening in early 1993.
She was about to lend the Nityananda Institute $500,000 so the swami could finally build a proper meditation hall. Chetanananda and his followers had searched for months for new quarters to replace their cramped houses in Cambridge.
They settled on a big brick building in Portland, Laurelhurst Manor, built in 1910 as the Anna Lewis Mann Old People's Home. Property records show that the institute borrowed $840,000 toward the $1.2 million price of the house off Northeast Sandy Boulevard. The institute and disciples later bought -- and still own -- a dozen other houses nearby.
But the big brick building at 1021 N.E. 33rd Ave. needed extensive remodeling. Ames says Chetanananda told her the financial demands put him in a vise.
Ames recalls thinking that whoever came up with the money for the hall would deliver salvation to the messiah.
A written agreement shows that Ames made the $500,000 loan for up to three years. She charged 6 percent interest and asked that her support be anonymous. The institute listed its collateral as a house and land on Martha's Vineyard, the island off Cape Cod where the swami held retreats. The Vineyard property was up for sale.
Ames toyed with the idea of giving all her money to the institute. If this man was God, she says she reasoned, why hold back anything?


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'As a swami, of course, I don't have the usual signposts in life that tell me I'm a success or a failure. For instance, when you're a swami, you don't get a salary.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded Jan. 2, 1993

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Ames says that in April 1994, Chetanananda called her into the study of his suite in the Portland manor. She saw his dark expression and braced for trouble.
Ames had moved into the big brick building in 1993. Disciples had beautifully refurbished the structure, renaming it the Rudrananda Ashram. They added a spacious meditation hall financed by Ames' loan, with a two-story arched ceiling and a prominent statue of Nityananda, the Indian guru credited with beginning the swami's lineage.
Fresh flowers arrived by air from California, former members say. French wine flowed in the swami's suite, they remember, with the empty bottles taking a discreet path to the garbage bin past disciples who shunned alcohol and meat.
But Chetanananda appeared pained to Ames as he stood by the oval oak table in his office. Ames says he told her that the New Jersey condo deal had collapsed. All the money was gone.
In fact, court records show, the troubled condo company, Executive House Associates LP, had filed Chapter 11 bankruptcy three years before. By 1994, lawyers were fighting over the last scraps.
Later Ames asked the swami for documentation so she could write off her loss for taxes. He became furious and picked up a chair as though to hit her, she recalls.
Ames says the swami told her to talk with his brother, attorney John Robert 'Bob' Shoemaker, also a disciple. She still has the memo she received from Shoemaker saying that he had no information concerning the bankruptcy.
'As you know,' Shoemaker wrote, 'the partnership never listed you as a partner. The investment was made in Swamiji's name, and his taxpayer i.d. number was used.'
'Egotism, . . . the fundamental sickness of human beings, is what people come here to be cured of. And you know, I run a hospital. I live here 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I'm on call for the last 25 years. This is not a benefit to me. It is a benefit to you.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded in January or February 1996
Ames says Chetanananda paid a visit in February 1996 to the ashram office where she edited his lectures on salary from Productivity Inc. Ames remembers him saying Productivity was in trouble and might stop paying his retainer.
She heard him say ashram finances were dire. The Martha's Vineyard property still hadn't sold. Moreover, Pennzoil, owner of the neighboring Jiffy Lube on Sandy Boulevard, might build a carwash on a vacant lot next door to the meditation hall, spoiling the ambiance.
A written agreement shows that the next month, on March 8, 1996, she signed a one-year extension of her loan to the Nityananda Institute. Some of the pressure was off the institute's finances.


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'I probably try to do too much already, managing this place, carrying on my head the debt load that it represents. I don't know if any of you have been $2.5 million in debt before. All of you who have money pressures on you know what that's like. Well, magnify it a bunch.' -- Chetanananda, on a tape-of-the-month recorded April 2, 1996

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Walter Delaney, the rumpled, white-haired fire chief on the western tip of Martha's Vineyard, spent April 2, 1996, poking through the ashes of the house where Chetanananda once held summer retreats.
Pop singer James Taylor had spotted the fire raging late March 31 across the bay from his home. Taylor called the Gay Head Volunteer Fire Department, made up of a crew of carpenters and fishermen.
Fire trucks raced down Lobsterville Road. Firefighters found the two-story house blazing. They struggled to pump water from a nearby stream. But the wood-frame building was a total loss.
Delaney lists the cause of the fire -- which broke out hours after six disciples had finished a weekend of painting and cleaning -- as undetermined.
The fire, it turned out, was manna from heaven. The property would be easier to sell without the house. And the institute's insurance firm paid several hundred thousand dollars to the Nityananda Institute for the loss, according to a company spokesman who declined to give the exact amount.
The month after the fire, the institute completed its purchase of the vacant lot from Jiffy Lube. Disciples in the great hall financed by Ames could continue chanting and meditating undisturbed. And the grassy lot was perfect for running the ashram's six Rottweilers, attack-trained by a man flown out from Boston.


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'The love and devotion we display toward a teacher is a crucial part of the transformation process.' -- Chetanananda, in his book, 'Choose to be Happy,' Rudra Press, 1996

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Ames says she felt Chetanananda glaring at her across the desk in his suite Jan. 1, 1997.
She recalls watching the swami's face turn bright red as he yelled at her, faulting her for skipping a kitchen chore. She says she had merely overlooked the job on an assignment sheet and was devastated that he would think she had missed it intentionally.
And then it dawned on her.
My God. This man doesn't even know who I am.
She says her years of doubts about Chetanananda bubbled to the surface. The temper tantrums. The false predictions. The disastrous investment schemes. The insults and put-downs. His sexual conduct.
Ames stayed inside the ashram for several more months, agonizing over her allegiance. During this time, she says, she was pressured to convert her $500,000 loan into a gift.
But something had changed. She didn't think of Chetanananda as God anymore.


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'There is one thing I want to make really clearly, and that is I am a liberated soul. . . . I think it may not be possible for a liberated soul to live in the company of human beings.' -- Chetanananda, on Aug. 12, 1997, in a taped talk

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A former disciple's snapshot shows Sharon Ward, the guru's right-hand woman, standing barefoot beside visiting white-robed monks at the Portland ashram. Flames sputtered from the Portland ashram's mortgage papers in the institute's fire pit in July 1997.
Ex-disciples recall Ward, wearing a crisp white blouse and long flowery skirt, clapping as Chetanananda thanked disciple Kerry Ernest Smith. Smith had succeeded in the bakery business after running the ashram-affiliated bakery company in Bloomington years before. Now, Smith had returned to donate $1.7 million to pay off the ashram's mortgage, Ward said.
But Ward faced still more challenges:
The institute would soon have to repay Ames the $500,000 plus interest.
The Martha's Vineyard acreage hadn't sold.
And Melinda Mandell, a former institute member, was suing Chetanananda and the institute. Court records show that she alleged misrepresentation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, breach of contract and racketeering. Mandell sought more than $4 million, claiming the swami had never delivered on a promise to provide ashram housing and instruction if she left her law practice in Boston.
Mandell claimed in the suit that the institute was not a charitable church organization but a for-profit enterprise operated for the benefit of Chetanananda, Ward and other key followers including Bob Shoemaker, the guru's brother and Ward's husband.
Lawyers for the swami and the institute denied all of Mandell's allegations, later describing the racketeering claim as 'confusing, jumbled and scattershot.' The lawyers said that institute representatives denied they had promised ashram instruction, and that Mandell failed to prepare to find employment in Oregon.
The parties ultimately would settle the suit in 1999, under confidential terms. But as complaints and summonses flew in the summer of 1997, the Nityananda Institute began requiring members to sign a form releasing the swami and his church from any liability.
The form said the student understood that Chetanananda, 'the abbot,' did not provide counseling, health care or confidential relationships. 'I accept that I am fully responsible for myself and my life,' the form said, 'including my own actions, behavior, thoughts, financial status, health, relationships, and any other condition.'
By Aug. 3, 1997, Ward, the ashram's executive director, wrote in a letter to Ames, that she had secured a bank mortgage. She paid off the $500,000 loan to Ames and began negotiating interest payments with her.
After the mortgage-burning ceremony and a retreat session for institute members, Ward used some lines from Basavanna, a 12th-century poet, in a fund-raising letter. A copy of the Aug. 7, 1997, draft reads: 'Can there be devotion in words and more words? Can there be devotion unless the body is spent, unless the heart is spent, unless the wealth is spent?'
The letter continued: 'Swamiji has been working so hard, and giving so deeply and freely of himself, that by the end of the retreat, he was exhausted, and so hoarse that he could barely speak.
'In his brief and beautiful closing remarks, he said to us repeatedly, 'Don't hold back.' '


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'If you're the person who's (expletive) judging what work you're going to do all the damn time, what do you need a teacher for? . . . I am constantly meeting people who are sitting in judgment of what I am communicating to them. You can't believe how frustrating it is for me to see people who think they're better than me.' -- Chetanananda, Aug. 28, 1997, in a taped talk, three weeks after the fund-raising letter

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Ames says she moved out of the ashram Dec. 9, 1997. She twisted her ankle carrying a box out to her car.
She says that no one asked her why she was leaving: No one wished her well.
'I bust my guts out for people who mostly wonder, you know, 'What in the hell happened?' and 'What's that son of a bitch trying to get from me anyway?' Well, the truth of the matter is, I'm after your money. (laughter from audience). Or, I could be after your bodies. (more laughter). -- Chetanananda, during a talk in February 1998, after Ames left
In 1998, Martha's Vineyard conservationists hiked across the Nityananda Institute's island acreage, admiring the breathtaking view across Menemsha Bight. They had eyed the property five years before, but their organization usually avoided land with buildings.
Now minus the house, the secluded 28 acres were attractive, with their rolling hills, dense woodland, wetlands, streams and a peat bog. That September, Martha's Vineyard Land Bank commissioners approved the purchase of the property for $1.2 million.
The Nityananda Institute gained some breathing room. Ames got her interest money back. But more trouble loomed for Chetanananda.

'You are a cowardly, vengeful, venomous witch. . . . I do not sexually abuse women. . . . I have never cheated you in business. . . . If you don't stop these slanderous lies and harassment of members of our community, I will sue you. . . . I will make the process as ugly and expensive as humanly possible.' -- Swami Chetanananda, May 14, 1998, in a letter to Ames'


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You can reach Richard Read at 503-294-5135 or richread@aol.com.


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Peace and lentils,
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:48:37 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Swami C.
Message:
Hi Such. Thanks for keeping us updated on the lastest fucked-up excuse for a guru. I met him back in the seventies, a few years after Rudi died, back when he was still Michael Shoemaker. My first impression of him was that he was a pretentious pompous asshole.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:47:21 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: interesting stuff
Message:
Yeah, people are getting hip to these guys.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:20:09 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My quick note to the Oregonian reporter
Message:
Howdy,

I've been reading your series in the Oregonian and enjoying it greatly. I love it when these crooks are exposed.

Don't suppose you remember the boy guru from the early seventies, Maharaji? Now there's a guy who's been able to fly under the radar for a long time. But now, the jig's up on him too, thanks to the internet.

If you would like to check him out, I'm pretty sure there's a local contact in Portland some where. See www.ex-premie.org and www.maharaji.org or www.enjoyinglife.org for more information.

Oh, and don't be too surprised to hear from other folks either. We former devotees have been having a lively discussion about this for years at http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=ex-premieforum.

Best Wishes,

Gerry Lyng

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:07:46 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: My quick note to the Oregonian reporter
Message:
Hi Gerry,

Have you considered sending email to author?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:22:49 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Duh? Neglect question inabove post
Message:
Sorry Gerry,

I just read the subject heading after I posted.

I also sent a comment to the author as well. What a creep, this Michael Shoemaker. The arrogance is mind-boggling.

Cults need much more exposure. Cult thinking and the transference of faith, trust, etc. to another person is full fledged wickedness.

It's amazing how all this shit is hitting the fan at the same time, isn't it?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:37:26 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Good, the word's getting out! (nt [nt]
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:04:52 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: such
Subject: No need for that
Message:
There's no need to put 'NT' if you click the no text function.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: All
Subject: I'm just getting it out of me system!!
Message:
Over on The 'Lifes Great' forum SC commented on my post here about my experiences compared to others, specifially David Anderson. This prompted a bit of another reaction from me which probably belongs here. I have said a lot of this before so sorry if this sounds repetitive. Anyway I am taking a break for a week or two so I'm afraid I won't be able to talk here for a while. I'll leave you with this rant anyway for what it's worth!

SC wrote
what's the difference between these two guys?' All I could come down to was... one experienced something inside that was SO profound it overrode everything on the outside - everything. The other had a pleasant experience of peace/contentment but still related that in some small way to or about Maharaji. Even an attempt to get away from the M association glued you more to it perhaps, whereas a true experience of the heart has nothing to do with outside M. I'm slowly forming the hypothessis that many premies did NOT take full responsibility for their own inner experience of meditation but somehow kept it all bound up with the external M, ashram etc. This I believe has caused untold problems.

I also experienced 'something inside that was SO profound it overrode everything on the outside'. for many many years. I don't deny that.
I appreciate your comments and agree with a lot of what you say although I would claim that I am not confusing my experience of 'the external M, ashram etc.' with my inner experience. I can see how the external M was responsible for the external ashrams, what he wanted to happen,and of course, everything he said and gave 'agya' (=Master' s orders) about.

The fact remains that the external M, however much one is fond and non-judgemental of him, encouraged us to surrender our lives in a very practical way. ie. ashrams, satsang, service and meditation, 'agya' and all that stuff that nobody dare mention nowadays. As I said over on Forum 6, although I enjoyed myself much of the time, I have very mixed feelings in retrospect about my time as a 'grunt' premie in the ashram. I now judge that my talents were wasted, that I was, rather than being 'looked after' or 'cared for' by Maharaji, that I became a part of a rather sick society from which I basically gained zilch and that Maharaji was not in control of the whole thing . Frankly I was much happier meditating at my parents home and away from the idiots I subsequently got lumped in with. I was young, naive and yet trusting and sincere and that trust led me to do exactly what maharaji (the man) recommended. Maharaji said he was the Master and that it was paramount to 'obey' him -follow his agya. It was a heavy trip which I submitted to in good faith.

Not all ashram premies were idiots but there were some very weird ambitious people there ( you know - people who painfully and constantly pined to be instructors and were always blubbing about becoming PAM's) and they tended to over-rule quiet types who just ate humble pie and did what they were told imagining that they were being looked after. Looked after! Some hope. More like forgotten and trodden underfoot in the mad machinations of the organisation to 'serve' Maharaji at all costs.

Maharaji encouraged us to be so consumed and pre-occupied with being 'devotees' that premies just lost their humanity - they became unkind, treated each other without respect - after all Maharaji always was yelling how useless we all were -and now I think that those who are still stuck in that mode are just sad cases. Premies seem to be so obsessed with Maharaji and their great experience -in fact they are generally the one's who I would accuse of 'having a pleasant experience of peace/contentment but still related that in some small way to or about Maharaji'. Show me a premie who doesn't associate their inner experience with Maharaji. I agree that this is the big problem - I just think you've got it back to front suggesting that I am the one who is suffering this delusion.

I now think that this sort of Hindu ashram trip was just a prescription for total squashing of the spirit along with the ego. In fact I think the whole philosophy that Shri Hans and the rest of those Indian Gurus spouted was effectively just intimidating, manipulative, dogmatic, medieval religious power play. I, along with many others were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and got hit by this seductive yet abusive trap. The devotional side and the 'love -tripping' is hugely over-played in my opinion- and also covers a multitude of sins. Maharaji may be a really nice guy who some people can get along with in a normal kind of way but he is responsible for himself believing in and relentlessly promoting that surrender the reins of your life to the EXTERNAL me stuff. He even used to say 'don't worry about your experience -just surrender to me (do Satsang,service and meditation and darshan and nothing else) and the rest will follow.

I find the devotee types can be pretty creepy and unnatural - you just get this feeling that nothing matters to them apart from their own narcissistic obsession with Maharaji and the experience they associate with him as some kind of God-like Master. They sometimes lost their natural respect towards others in the process .
Believe me I often suffered and got walked over by these types and now I feel justified in feeling that I have absolutely no wish to be a part of any autocratic organisation that has this negative transforming effect on people.

Anyway I increasingly believe that the experiences of meditation are also very open to interpretation and that the way Maharaji sets things up so that he appears, hints that he is, the great divinely appointed 'giver' is misleading. Actually if you look at the whole thing from a psychological perspective it's easy to see how this stuff works. For me the current fascinating mystery is what is really going on here in the universe beyond this transparent cultic stuff. Why are we here? Certainly not to be chewed up in some devotional cult. My premie friends feel they know it all and their natural incination to really analyse and learn has been apparently put on hold. They deserve to be disturbed in their false peace for their own good even if it irritates them to be shaken in their slumbers.

My best school friend became a premie with me - he has built his whole life on knowledge and Maharaji and meditates hour upon hour every day and has never deveoped a career or anything. I'm not kidding -he meditates HOURS every day and what good it has done is rather questionable. This guy was one of the many devout premies around here who get together at programs, and afterwards party on down - generally the first thing they do after their morning's fix of a couple of hours of meditation is light up a fat one. I think that is telling that they need to anaesthetise themselves to reality so much. Anyway this guy exemplifies the premie types who just want to traipse around the world getting 'darshan' but can't be bothered to hold down a job and feel contemptuous about the world in which we all live and the dreaded rampant 'mind' which all but they are mislead by.

So he is now in prison in Germany for smuggling coke - English town are populated by such sad cases of 40 and 50 somethings who spout high morals and great PROFOUND experiences but their lives tell a different story. Why the gulf between what premies (including maharaji if you will) say and what they live and do?

The fact is I was abjectly miserable as a squashed being living in the ashram and now I am immeasurably happier having reclaimed my brain and control of my life. I making a better job of my life than Maharaji did. He was wrong and I should not have trusted him. He highjacked my promising future and pretended that his doctrine of humilaiation was ggod for my soul. People say I sound bitter. If that is the case it is justified, appropriate and a reaction to what I experienced. For me it is a part of moving on to tackle this subject and not to just bury or forget my true feelings about what happened. I opened my heart completely and trustingly to Maharaji and sacrificed my being -trusting that a diet of Knowledge alone would be totally fulfilling to my soul. No way was this the case. It was not enough. There were times in the ashram when I was experiencing 'Holy Name -Nectar' and the rest -pumping through my body but in my heart I was miserable in that situation - sitting for hour upon hour in melt-down all weekend satsangs - absolutely mind-numbingly boring and torturously repetitive. Soul Food? I don't think so. Do you see Maharaji sitting for hours watching videos and meditating and doing things he doesn't enjoy? No way! Oh but of course, he has done penance in a previous incarnation as the 'humblest of humble premies' I suppose!

And his kids??? not for them the humble path either I guess. Really I would like to hear what they have to say about the dreadful stuff their dad put us lot through when we were their age. Maybe they would think twice about taking on or endorsing the family business if they had to surrender their BMW's , houses, horses, boy-friends, drinks, teenage drug experimentation, super priviledged life-style, holidays, playing around with music and video production and fun hi-tech stuff etc. to face the prospect of a lifetime of being some nameless, egoless blob doing a brainless menial endless task in some dreary grey British northern town with only the forlorn and desperate hope that the distant master may one day pluck them from obscurity and bless them with the wonderful opportunity to bow down and kiss his foot.

maybe if they had been Indian peasants this fate would have been comparatively heavenly - but for more sophisticated, educated and hopeful young westerners looking forward to a happy fullfilling future - following Maharaji was like being cut off in their prime -like being lured by the Pied Piper into a dark cave and shut in forever away from the pleasures of the world. Hell is described as the lonely experience of being cut off from the love of man and God. That was my experience of being in the ashram.

To me the whole thing seems so hypocritical and wrong.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:49:06 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: I'm just getting it out of me system!!
Message:
Not all ashram premies were idiots but there were some very weird ambitious people there ( you know - people who painfully and constantly pined to be instructors and were always blubbing about becoming PAM's) and they tended to over-rule quiet types who just ate humble pie and did what they were told imagining that they were being looked after. Looked after! Some hope. More like forgotten and trodden underfoot in the mad machinations of the organisation to 'serve' Maharaji at all costs.

IMO, it's still very much the same. To paraphrase a quote from an old friend-- M's cult is a place where all premie pigs are upwardly mobile, while premie lambs are led to slaughter.

Btw, great post Patrick!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:32:11 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I remember that quote
Message:
HST In a world ruled by swine all pigs are upwardly mobile
I think the leader he was referencing was Nixon but funny how it carries through.
I tend to agree the more articulate who come here have the same agenda, to defend their 'teacher'. But at least they are communicating instead of spitting hair balls or looking for scratching posts.

Good to see you around Joey. Hope all is well.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:55:23 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: I remember that quote
Message:
I tend to agree the more articulate who come here have the same agenda, to defend their 'teacher'. But at least they are communicating instead of spitting hair balls or looking for scratching posts.

Well Yeah, right seems to be articulate enough. Is this an example of NOT 'spitting hair balls or scratching posts?'

Speaking of that stuff, how's your special EX premie leader's brain cancer? Are they going to operate or let him sink into dementia? Ooops, kitty out of the bag on that?

But since making phone calls and e-mails is what you're after...you know there's a lot of interesting things about a lot of you guys, too, sweetie...lots of offices, professional societies, parent-teacher associations...OH YEAH...is that the game you wanna play? Think hard....think very hard before you commit all the EX premies to this kind of war, sweetie...

And what about your new found friend SC?

I guess I'll just have to keep my eyes more open. I'd hate to miss out on any new trends:)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:10:42 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Yeah, right = vile!
Message:
Yeah, right him sound like David Whitla, aka Catweazle.

Him sad man, no? Me think him bad also. Maybe he just mad. Heh. It his problem, innit?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:01:17 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: gotta agree
Message:
Others have been praising Andersen's posts. That's all I meant.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:43:57 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Event in Mainz
Message:
Hi everyone,
there are different reactions amongst the premies about the programm in Mainz. Of course there are the ones, who say that this was a successfull event. According to my observations this programm was the worst one, not in the way it was organized but in the way, what was said and how MJ was presented. I think the premies here in Germany tried really to make it nice. ´
But some faithful premies out of my town are really shocked about the programm itself. One premie will collected the critics and will write a letter to MJ. He even feels responsible for the guests he had invited and because those guest were really shocked. Some people could stand physically the long videos. It was not only that there was one and a half day only video but, what was so obvious, is the complet twist, how the message is presented. The concept of Master and Devotee again is announced very powerful, like with one statement of MJ himself:' Without this guy( and he definetly was meaning himself)you never can come home' I would say, for people with a normal avarage mental healthy condition, they are now warned after this programm, that they maybe end up in a cult one day. I'm glad, that a few premies more, are asking now: who is responsible for that? So far the discussions about that goes, of course the organisation gets blamed for that, premies are not able to see that maybe MJ himself is responsible for that all. On this really phoney video they showed on the programm, it was produced by his kids and to see and hear him on this video even shocked a premie, who had received knowledge in a very unconviniant knowledgesession in Vienna, but this is another story.

ciao .....wolfie...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 00:32:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Thanks wolfie
Message:
Always enjoy your perspective on things!

bests, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:14:58 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: 'Without this guy you never can come home'-yikes [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:27:18 (EDT)
From: Nige and Moley
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D!
Message:
(and I am sure that sooner or later you might need some ;)

We would just like to say hi to everyone and hope it all goes well with the relaunch. One way or another, I am sure EPO is here to stay, regardless of onboard personnel or even website location. But well done anyway, to everyone willing to devote their time – past, present and future. For as long as the cult is in business, there will be useful work to be done.

We would also like to add that if we are not around on FVI very much it has nothing to do with any overspill of issues from the recent midsummer madness on Forum V, nor do we feel any personal animosity towards anyone we might have disagreed with.

But for myself (Nigel), I have recently spent some time I otherwise might have frittered away on the forum, checking out the wider internet (a place it is often hard to get myself to if I even pause for a second to look at EPO) and have also been questioning the best ways of using my spare creative energies. If my contributions to EPO have had any value for others (as some people have assured me) it seems to be my ‘Journeys’ post which they talk about rather than forum stuff. And since my journey has a permanent home I don’t feel much need to be here. It does get tiring arguing the same arguments with diehard premie visitors who have no intention of changing their minds and who bear so little resemblance to any premie I have known in real life. Fun for a while, maybe, but ultimately frustrating and too repetitious - but I am glad there are many others willing to stick around and do it

Anyway, we have both decided to get more involved with some other useful causes, notably Amnesty International’s campaigns. With the possible exception of Jagdeo’s activities or some premies being headfucked to the point of suicide, nothing in cult history approaches – for example - the sheer horror of imprisonment without trial followed by torture, such commonplace activities worldwide they barely get a mention in the press- although it is happening to probably hundreds of people even as we breathe each happy new breath. Yeah, Life's Great, right? (There is a lot of evidence that AI’s campaigns DO make a difference and DO save lives, so I would encourage anybody interested to check out their website and send off a cheque if they want to support AI’s work.) Let’s face it, if Prem was going to deliver a world where lions lie down with lambs, he’d have shown some progress by now…

As for me (Moley) I love the forum most of all for the opportunities it brings to meet fascinating people. But I have often felt pangs of guilt about the amount of time I have spent arguing points about the cult when, after all, as Nige has said, there are much, much worse things going on in the world- notably child hunger and disease, the Chinese orphanages, the subjugation of, and violence towards, women - than a bunch of relatively affluent, free people having the misfortune to fall under the influence of a hamster.

BTW: We don’t want to come over as ‘holier-than-thou-our-cause-is-more-important-than-your-cause’. (I know for a fact many exes are involved in all sorts of humanitarian projects but prefer not to mention them here.) And yes, for so many exes, especially waverers and recent exes, the issues discussed here are critical at a personal level and vital for sorting out people’s heads and healing bruised emotions – and until those are dealt with they aren’t going to be in much of a position to look beyond those issues, hence the importance of both EPO and the forum.

Still here, even when not here...;)

Love, Nige and Moley
[ Amnesty Internatinal ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:33:45 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Thanks for dropping a line
Message:
Very nice to hear from both of you.

Well, I'm sure the skills you polished from your participation at the EPO bootcamp will be valuable to any service-of-the-heart you endeavour. It was a real pleasure reading your posts. Your integrity
is indominatable.

Stay well and let us know how things are going with AI.

Moley, you have my email. Email me Anytime!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:36:37 (EDT)
From: SF (selene)
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: hi to both of you
Message:
It was great to read your posts. You both hold a place in my heart.
I have been exploring other websites not cult related , and away from the glaring eyes.
Life is short we need to find something that we feel makes our life worthwhile and hopefully helps others as well.
I won't elaborate here lest I be followed. But trust I am not finding another leader!
Just good to hear from you. A big hug,
Selene
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:21:11 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Hi Nigel and Moley
Message:
Hi you two. Are you living together in sin now?

Glad to hear you are devoting time to Amnesty. It is a wonderful organization that really does make a difference in peoples' lives all over the world. Devoting time to an organization like that puts one's priorities in perspective, doesn't it?

I thought you were going to show up on our doorstep this summer....

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:08:31 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: We will repost many of your gems over time
Message:
You can of course stop in whenever you have a pub visit and nowhere to
be creative afterwards.
Stop in and bring your new subjects with you.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:16:49 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Best 2 U Moley/Nige :) (nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:36 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: You mean you two actually got a life?
Message:
Thanks for checking in you two. It just proves that we're not all 'loosers' and some of us actually can move on and get a life as premies are so fond of suggesting. Hell, I took a year off from lurking once and built my own house so I know it's possible.

But really, glad to have you drop in and I for one hope you find some time to contribute. And if you happen to see Larkin lurkin' anywhere, please ask him for an autograph for me - the songs are fab and a constant source of humor.

Richard who was Postie but now I'm found

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:40 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Re: Best of luck, webmaster JHB and FA Sir D!
Message:
If you read my intro at the top you'll see that your posts typify what I mentioned about ''your current realisations today will be of great interest to the people here, so please feel free to speak''.

I don't think being an ex-premie is a cause. If so it would be a negative one, wouldn't it. Promoting clearer understanding about what's happened and enjoying communication with people from our shared past - that is a natural by-product of having left Maharaji's influence.

Good luck to you also. Amnesty Internatinal has a lot of cleaning up to do in the world. They'll always need people like you for their worthy cause.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:14:40 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: BTW: ckeck your mailbox.. nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:16:44 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dave
Subject: Re: 'cause'
Message:
Thanks, Dave. (We weren't actually signing-off as such - just trying to point out that if we seem to have disappeared it has nothing to do with any symbolic boycotting of the forum or whatever.)

BTW: I realise exes disagree over whether EPO is a 'cause' or not. But if you think about Amnesty's basic approach to human rights and methods employed, it isn't that different from anything going on here, although it is on a very different scale. Both involve sharing information with the largest possible audience regarding the harm caused by people with power over others, hence reducing the risk of future occurences. But cause, or no cause the forum will continue to provide a precious point of contact for ever-increasing numbers, that is for sure. I think it is safe hands - but you might find a growing demand for very explicit guidelines, if you want to keep the place tidy and civilised without enraging posters affected by any interventions you have to make (speaking strictly from experience ;)

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:08:04 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Nige and Moley
Subject: Good to hear trom you.
Message:
Thank you for putting all this into a greater perspective. 'Life' in its beauties and terrors is so much more vivid and urgent than what the cult-deadened are comfortable to acknowledge.

It's a little too easy to skip around the world mindlessly trilling 'I know who the Lord is, I know who the Lord is, nyah nyah nyah', leaving the poor schmucks with their miserable karmas to fend for themselves. Such is the arrogance of the cult mindset, so it appears to me.

Anyway, thanks again for expressing the larger issues of which we all as humans -- forget the pewk, premie or ex labels -- should be concerned.

Best,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 13:13:04 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Carl
Subject: Thanks, well said...
Message:
Ha-ha - loved that line 'It's a little too easy to skip around the world mindlessly trilling 'I know who the Lord is, I know who the Lord is, nyah nyah nyah', leaving the poor schmucks with their miserable karmas to fend for themselves.'

Couldn't agree more, Carl. And those inevitable references to 'karma' which permeate hindu-based and new-age belief systems are for me the ultimate kop-out when it comes to being aware of things going on in the world, or as an excuse for a loathsome, smug complacency amongst those who consider themselves spiritually enlightened or materially blessed for past-life achievements. (Though I suspect as premies we all allowed ourselves to indulge in such thoughts to some extent...?)

Best to you too, Carl.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:34:14 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: To all the folks who posted above
Message:
A big thanks for your lovely messages. It'll be hard to stay away for too long with you guys around. xxx
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:05:08 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: To all the folks who posted above
Message:
I do hope you will bring your internet finds here or to the anything goes forum.
DOnt fergit, we are your avid readers!

WHy should you not take your readers with you as you explore more of this world?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:31:50 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please read this
Message:
Please read the forum help page which is linked on the blue rectangle. There are things there which you need to know.

I'm the webmaster. I have put this place online. I do not necessarily agree with all the opinions voiced here but I do believe in free speech which is why this forum is here.

I am against illegal activities being promoted here and will inform any relevant authorities should this arise. I hope that's made things clear.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:13:52 (EDT)
From: Doesn't open another window
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: Please read this
Message:
on any of my computers (only 2 of them).
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:46:57 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Doesn't open another window
Subject: OK try it now and
Message:
tell me if it's opening in a new window. I've changed the HTML. I may have done it wrong before since I was in a hurry.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 09:18:36 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Don't click that link
Message:
I hate that type of link where you can't go back to the previous page, or stop loading it !!!!! That's a real hassle ..... Why do so many websites do this ?
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:43:11 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It should open a new browser window
Message:
I don't know why it doesn't on your computer. Anyone else have this problem?
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:46:55 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: It should open a new browser window
Message:
Worked fine for me:-) And yes it did open a new browser window.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:14:22 (EDT)
From: ????
Email: None
To: All
Subject: can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT)
Message:
naaaaa
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:10:22 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: ????
Subject: sure but we look for those we know first. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:41:13 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ????
Subject: No, from now on it's got to be '????' (nt)
Message:
naaaaa


---

naaaa na na na naaaa na na na naaaa na na na, na na na, na na naaaaa,

'you know how to pony, (oh yeah)
pony maloney, (shoo shoo)
mashed potato...' etc

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:26 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: ????
Subject: Re: can I post here under any name I want ?- (NT)
Message:
Personally, I couldn't care less who you are or what name you use but it becomes pointless if you keep on changing it since then nobody knows who you are.

I'm not your father or your guru and you can make some decisions yourself now.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:33:01 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Amesterdam is Bjorn Again
Message:
Take my word for it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:12 (EDT)
From: Paris
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: So what?
Message:
Your word si not worth a lot.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:38 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Paris
Subject: Re: So what?
Message:
Your word si not worth a lot.


---

Perhaps not. But my currency is not the issue. Bjorn's is. He has been asked repeatedly not to post on the Ex-premie forum, for some very good reasons.

He has upset many people here with his persistent line of questioning, and I felt duty bound to warn those people that he is back under yet another alias.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:24:22 (EDT)
From: Paris
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: So what?
Message:
What is wrong about 'persistent line of questioning'?

Isn't this a new forum where there is no censorship and no one is banned? And outing shouldn't happen?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:44:38 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Paris
Subject: More Bjorn/Bongo/Paris, etc.
Message:
Way asks:

Bongo,

You said last week that you would soon be making some sort of revealing explanation about yourself. So, how about it?

Bjorn replies:

That was my intention, but monday I had a bad dream. Not a nightmare but it was like a long story. I dreamt one of the exes, (not one of my favorites) came after me and my family and tried to kill us. He did not succeed, but it was prety weird.

So this far I've got second thoughts about that.

woo woo !!!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:33:18 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: and Klown... ?
Message:
... shows an interesting writing style. It combines half-baked legalisms and a partisan attitude when it comes to equality of treatment as between cultists and regular folk.


What can it mean?
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:51:13 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: FA: Bug in software?
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

did I notice you change your name here?
I noticed that previewing message here changes the text when posted. Actually, a lot. Is this fixable?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:20:58 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: FA: Bug in software??
Message:
While I am keeping an eye on this place, I'll just use plain Dave which is what everybody else calls me. I'll check on this text change but I think you may be refering to the fact that line spaces don't show on the preview although they come back again once the message is posted.

Let's have a look.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:53 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Dave
Subject: Looks OK to me
Message:
Read the help section, linked on the blue rectangle.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:18:26 (EDT)
From: Jeffrey Donner's post
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Metaphor
Message:
Friends --
I’ve been lurking for several months. In mid-March, my much older and much uglier bro, Michael Donner, alerted me that an interesting discussion was underway in Forum 5. I’ve been fascinated since.

I’m a Catholic priest, pastor of a parish at a state university, studying anthropology. I’m most interested in how religions evolve. My chief interest is in Catholicism which is attempting a significant in-house transformation. I would never have imagined that listening to you guys would be all that useful to my own project -- I got reading because Mike’s life has been so, ahem, interesting. But I got hooked -- especially by people trying to sift out some zone of comfort between being a group and being individuals. I can’t imagine a topic which better defines the difficulties of modern life. And you have faced it in spades with the explosion over Jim.

I just wanted to offer the following metaphor from history as a lens you might use to get another slant on what’s been going on in Forum 5. I am extremely grateful to you for the sharing of your lives that has gone on here, tough as it has been. I send this metaphor as a token of my appreciation and hope it helps a little in the planning underway for forum 6.

One of the issues illuminated by the flap in forum 5 is part of the history between Catholics and Protestants. Here's the metaphor: in the 16th c., the Catholic hierarchy is Maharaji, Luther et al are the ex-premies. What has happened to the Protestants is that once badly burned by a religious bully drunk with his own power, they have become extremely, almost genetically, on alert for anything that smacks of 'Catholicism'. When 'Catholicism' rears any of its old signs in a Protestant group, a part of the group gets allergic and splits. Protestantism continues today to split into smaller and smaller pieces. Lesson: one of the really touchy, and most interesting, issues in religion is the complex relationship between the individual and the group. Brian says his actions were in large part in defense of his individual rights to express himself without being bullied by a flame-thrower, but gets accused by the other libertarians of selling out the group. Jim, the loudest of the libertarians, wants a cohesive group with a coherent point of view. He even seems to want to speak for the group. Ironies are flying in every direction.

So here's an issue worth watching, I think: the world's experience of Catholicism through the 19th c. has spawned a reaction of separatism and splintering in the religious world in defense of the individual. That reaction was a very important move for human beings to make. That splintering, though, has led to a loss of the experience of transcendence that comes with belonging to something/someone bigger than the self. So move two has been the recognition of alienation and the destruction to the human spirit from gross individualism. The question, then, is: what's move three? I think the ex-premies are trying to figure that out at the moment, working out the new game plan about the big issue, group vs individualism, through the details of how to set up forum 6.

If the metaphor is useful, some questions seem to follow. Isn’t part of the issue you’re facing the degree to which the exes want to imagine being a group? And isn’t part of THAT issue the negotiation of how to deal with your personal histories while at the same time trying to offer the benefit of your COMMON experience (which defines you as a group) with those who are still stuck in a cult? By what method, in what style of personal sharing, do you clarify your own anger and disenchantment and how do you translate what you’ve learned about THAT for the sake of those who are still in the cult? I think you’re trying to balance the benefits of owning your own lives against the dangers of collapsing into a gross individualism, and trying to sell that balance to people who think they have experienced the joys of belonging to a group and are not aware of the degree to which they have sold their souls as a guard against the alienation of modern life. That’s a very tricky little proposition to pull off. But it is extremely important, I think, for people to try it, because all over the planet today people are caught between the alienation of modern individualism and the offer of a safety net from every sort of fundamentalism. Any group, and every group, which takes a step in the healing of this issue in the world is a grace given from the future for everyone.

With all my heart, then, I thank you and I wish you the very best.
Jeff Donner

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:54:01 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jeffrey Donner's post
Subject: Jeff, you comin back?....nt
Message:
zzz
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:01:25 (EDT)
From: Jeffrey Donner
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Jeff, you comin back?....nt
Message:
Never far away, Deborah, but busy with my own job and life.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:18 (EDT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Event in WORCESTER , MASS
Message:
Word around here is that Maharaji got cold feet after the debacle in France. Apparently, a media blitz was being prepared for him. E-mails went out to local media companies and the city was inundated with flyers actually inviting everyone to come and see the Great Guru Maharaj ji-Lord of the Universe. Local churches had been e-mailed and told that the Lord was coming and that they were invited to come and see him. Good work over there in the great Northeast. We'll have to give it a try out here.

ps. The clockmaster still wants to know about the plant.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:56:18 (EDT)
From: Yeah, right
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Utter Bullshit
Message:
Word must in your dreams. There was no event planned in that area. And since you lot can't agree on jack shit without having a big dirty laundry session, do you REALLY believe that this 'campaign' would have gone off without being noticed? Especially when the Special Canadian Ex Premie UFO Squad can't keep her mouth shut for more than a minute without having an embolysm?

Speaking of that stuff, how's your special EX premie leader's brain cancer? Are they going to operate or let him sink into dementia? Ooops, kitty out of the bag on that?

But since making phone calls and e-mails is what you're after...you know there's a lot of interesting things about a lot of you guys, too, sweetie...lots of offices, professional societies, parent-teacher associations...OH YEAH...is that the game you wanna play? Think hard....think very hard before you commit all the EX premies to this kind of war, sweetie...

The only thing you and a 'mole' have in common is you live in the dark.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:11:48 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: Speaking of utter bullshit, Yeah, right
Message:
Word must in your dreams. There was no event planned in that area. And since you lot can't agree on jack shit without having a big dirty laundry session, do you REALLY believe that this 'campaign' would have gone off without being noticed? Especially when the Special Canadian Ex Premie UFO Squad can't keep her mouth shut for more than a minute without having an embolysm?

Speaking of that stuff, how's your special EX premie leader's brain cancer? Are they going to operate or let him sink into dementia? Ooops, kitty out of the bag on that?

But since making phone calls and e-mails is what you're after...you know there's a lot of interesting things about a lot of you guys, too, sweetie...lots of offices, professional societies, parent-teacher associations...OH YEAH...is that the game you wanna play? Think hard....think very hard before you commit all the EX premies to this kind of war, sweetie...

The only thing you and a 'mole' have in common is you live in the dark.


---

Your post speaks VOLUMES about Rawat and his premies, and his mission to bring peace into people's lives. Keep up the great work!! You should contact 'he whose name cannot be spoken here', EV's PR wizard, Jean Marie Bonthous, who is great need of synchronized spokespeople at the moment. You would be perfect!

So did you find out YET that Worcester WAS on Rawat's schedule? If not, you just aren't synchronized enough to 'need to know'. You might want to try increasing your contributions.

I ask again, where is the love, big-mouth?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:26:49 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: Sorry, yeah, right
Message:
Sorry to be the one to tell you, my dear premie, but Worcester, Ma. WAS on Rawat's summer schedule. If you were synchronized enough to be on EV's First Class e-mail system, you would have known that, since it had been discussed for there for months, until Mr. Rawat got scared.

By the way, where's the love?

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:24:25 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: relax Mr Yeah,
Message:
the malibu mole post is not sensible and I doubt it IS the malibu mole.
The ideas listed are mostly lame, and no ex's are needed at any
premie events. Contacting media is not necessary either.
Why distract all the public from thier own lives to look at this?

Yes, outreach WILL happen, but with grace, and style and kindness.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:29:38 (EDT)
From: Way's post on talking
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: to a premie. Not a war.
Message:
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My own conversation with a 'premie'
Message:
Joe,
This is sad, and a little eerie. In the last two months I had an email exchange with a long-time premie friend of mine. He is aware of all the info on this site. He attended the Miami event last Spring. When I asked him to explain to me his position, he couldn't really do it. He said that he cannot possibly judge the Master because he couldn't know what a Master does or should do. He said that he weeps sometimes because of his ignorance.

When I was around this guy in the 70's, he was a perfectly normal human being. But now he can't trust himself and denigrates himself exactly the way that Maharaji denigrates people. I asked him to look at the effect the supposed perfect Knowledge is having on him. It's supposed to be a good thing, but it doesn't really help people grow into themselves at all.

On ELK now there is a premie expression in which a premie talks about his own mind as if it were an abscessed tooth. And of course the way to get rid of this tooth is to go see Rawat at his events. As you say, Joe, Rawat turns people into their own worst enemies!!!

God, this is awful.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT)
From: Wolfie's post on a talk
Email: None
To: Way's post on talking
Subject: with a premie
Message:
I only talked about some few funny things, mostly like Mr. and Mrs. Ravat going to Dr. Kasarola to check their marriageproblems. Sorry, one premie I know since 10 years, got so confused by this little human story, that she was crying at night in her hotelroom because she could not handle that information
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:32:59 (EDT)
From: And Deborah's post on the
Email: None
To: Way's post on talking
Subject: subject, again, Not a war.
Message:
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Conversation with a 'friend'
Message:
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the post. I'm trying to find some good buddies of mine from the old days. I don't know if they're still with M because I was away from prem circuit for over decade.

This was also good for me to read, because when I read the posts of the premies who post here (flaming and contributing nothing) to the discussion, I think 'This is not what my friends would do'.

At least this person was able to answer to question honestly. And I'm also touched that the 'humanness' and 'friendship' did not have to be compromised.

Very encouraging. Nice posts today! Ah! A new Dawn.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:15:09 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Yeah, right
Subject: A threat?
Message:
My oh my. The only person (uh god?) that has been exposed on here is the former Lord of the Universe turned teacher. Are you saying you will go after ex's?
I tend to look at M's cult as a silly has been but now you are talking the tactics of Scientology. You wish.
And how do you plan this smear campaign? leaflets? Calls to supervisors? Let's hear it oh brave one who can't even post a FAKE name. Christ not even a Krusty name.
Who will be your lawyer or need I ask?
I wish M had gone to Worcester. I had told my numerous Catholic cousins and third cousins and all their friends to attend. Worcester is a rough city. Would have been fun.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:38:25 (EDT)
From: Yeah right
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: So...do you?
Message:
So, do you or do you not disavow disruption, interference and harrassment? JHB didn't have the balls to answer this, perhaps he is affraid to suffer the wrath your shock troops inflicted on Katie and Brian, huh?

Answer the question: are you interested in expression, or are you interested in street fighting? Have Deborah and 'Malibu Mole' already answered the question for you?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 01:52:09 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Yeah right
Subject: What's this about my balls?
Message:
Hey, Yeah Right,

In case you've been asleep, I'm not the FA here. But if you want my personal opinion, I support any legal means to publicise Maharaji and his cult, which is why I volunteered to run the EPO website. I am very against any illegal activity. Hope this clears up my testicular position (and come on, do you think banning Jim from forum 5 didn't require balls?!)

This is John Brauns, now who exactly am a talking to?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:40:48 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls?
Message:
JHB,

This site ain't worth Dick without Jim.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:52:22 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls?
Message:
Dog,

To the best of my knowledge (I've retired from FAing) Jim is not banned from this forum. But to say this forum is not worth anything without him is to raise him on a pedestal, and to insult all the other contributors. Can you justify this?

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:46:41 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls?
Message:
Dog,

To the best of my knowledge (I've retired from FAing) Jim is not banned from this forum. But to say this forum is not worth anything without him is to raise him on a pedestal, and to insult all the other contributors. Can you justify this?

John.


---

John,

Jim is one of the main contributors here and even though we differ on many things IMO he is one of the best. To say that my saying this is an insult all other contributors here is 'mind' at its worst.

That's like my saying, 'John I really like the shirt you are wearing today,' and you take this to mean 'I don't like the shirt you were wearing yesterday.'

It is thinking like this that led me to Knowledge in the first place. Holy Name is the only safe and sane place to be.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:45:12 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Shirts? - Crap analogy, Dep..
Message:
Sure - liking yesterday's shirt doesn't necessitate despising today's upper garment, but you only wear one shirt at a time. Not so forum posters. You can wear dozens every day.

If there were two forums, say, one where only Jim posted and another where everyone else except Jim posted, which would you most visit? The former one-to-one experience you could simulate by emailing Jim (you know each other, right?). I have no idea whether he would engage in such a dialogue, but it would pretty soon wear thin, I think.

Like anyone else here, Jim's impact came from the interpersonal dynamics of his conversations with many people - you included. Dismiss the rest of us as 'not worth dick' and you are dismissing yourself in similar terms.

Jim assembled ideas into nicely-turned sentences and posted them. He was damned good at it, but not supernaturally so. It just takes practice and a measure of critical thinking. Try it. Maybe in due course, people will click first on every 'Dep' thread that appears...

BTW: What exactly are you safe from in 'Holy Name'?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:53:04 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: What's this about my balls??
Message:
Dog,

Your argument is crap - I agree Jim is a wonderful contributor to these forums (when he isn't on one of his insane witchhunts, probably the best), but you said that without him this forum is worthless. This is saying that all the other posters' contributions are worthless. How else can what you said be interpreted? That is insulting.

Now, maybe you didn't mean it. Maybe you meant the forum is a little less without Jim. Then I would have to agree.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 20:25:18 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: OK the forum is a little less without Jim (nt) [nt]
Message:
adf
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:57:45 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Yeah right
Subject: It's cooler than that.
Message:
It is only education.
Information.
And having available assistance for those that want it.
Provided in a way you havent guessed, dont know yet, and dont need to
worry about.

'Disruption and harrassment and interference' you are worried about.
Dont worry any more, I know what is comeing and it aint that.
The only thing that will be a problem, if it is for some, is just
the facts.

Done in the style only available from Sir Davids Luv Club.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:00:13 (EDT)
From: bill I propose a name for
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: this forum, Sir David's Luv Club
Message:
dfsgfdsfadf
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:49:56 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Yeah right
Subject: I speak for myself
Message:
and, in general, do not engage in prolonged discussions with people who will not identify themselves here. Especially when they post as you just did.

disavow - To disclaim knowledge of, responsibility for, or association with.

My 'participation' :) has been limited to discussion on these pages. If you consider that to fit the above definition so be it. I don't.

I'll talk to you when I know who you are. I don't continue dialog with angry anons.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:13:02 (EDT)
From: Yeah
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Re: I speak --and cookies
Message:
Unless, of course, the 'anon' agrees with your battle plans?

By the way, how come this webite sends out cookies? How come the webmaster didn't tell anyone this? More tracking and tracing in preparation for your campaign of terror and harrassment?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:04:31 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Yeah
Subject: Re: I speak --and cookies
Message:
By the way, how come this webite sends out cookies? How come the webmaster didn't tell anyone this? More tracking and tracing in preparation for your campaign of terror and harrassment?

Here we see the 7th principle of the 'community con artist' at play:

7. All critics of me are sinners and have gone the world's way. (It's a feature of all con men to preemptively accuse their marks of what they themselves are doing, as a way to confuse the opponent.)

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:36:32 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Great post Joey ...
Message:
Where did you find these 'principles'? I'd like to read the rest!

Thanks,

Anna

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:58:13 (EDT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Yeah
Subject: Re: I speak --and cookies
Message:
Your browser type is: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; DigExt; BCD2000)

If you stick to one alias you might have some credibility. Talking about credibility, have you checked Hotboard's postion re CGI scripts and cookies?

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:23:37 (EDT)
From: You talking about aliases?
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: you stupid stupid person
Message:
YOU ARE NOT MK

MK USES A MACINTOSH

PISS OFF

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:55:34 (EDT)
From: So what ?
Email: None
To: You talking about aliases?
Subject: Re: you stupid stupid person
Message:
I don't use the same computer all the time, you know. You are maya, an illusion I've conjured to dance with.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:47:40 (EDT)
From: I don't care what crappy MSDOS
Email: None
To: So what ?
Subject: you're using. I said Stop using MK's handle
Message:
there's a connecting flight to Bhagdad from where you 'exist'
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:37:22 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: I don't care what crappy MSDOS
Subject: Re: yoyou has a posse ?
Message:
or is it you rich and pay gangstas? I and I not clear what you saying.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:01:58 (EDT)
From: So what ...
Email: None
To: I don't care what crappy MSDOS
Subject: David?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:24:51 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: Yeah
Subject: if you agreed
Message:
You wouldn't be so angry now would you?
As for the cookies you'll have to ask someone who runs the place. I disavow any involvement it that.
cheers there is lightening here gotta log off.
Just meditate, watch a video. You will be fine.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:05:05 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To David A, it's a personal thing
Message:
I have to agree with Jim Sander that there are just some things about Maharaji that I could no longer get past. Plus, I was pretty miserable as a premie for quite some time before I left the cult. I only stayed because Maharaji said all sorts of shitty stuff would happen if I left, or stopped practicing, and because he convinced me of his insidious, destructive ideology, that all doubts and misery were due to my own mind and should not be listened to. [By the way David, I left Miami in October, 1980, I guess just a few months before you did.]

Anyhow, anticipating the response, I note that David A asked Jim Sander:

May I ask You a couplke questions?

Sure, although I know you didn't direct them to me.

1) did you ever feel love for M?

No, I can't say I ever did. I really WANTED to, and heard repeatedly from many other people that they did, but since I never even met the guy, that is kind of a ridiculous idea. But I really did want to, I actually prayed for years for that, but I can't say it ever happened.

2) do you still practice K?

No. I practiced as instructed for about 10 years, but I no longer do. I found no difference in my level of happiness or satisfaction, capacity for love, between the period when I practiced knowledge and when I didn't. But when I dumped the Maharaji philosophy, I felt a whole lot better than when I was a premie. Life just kind of opened up and I felt a lot freer and happier.

3) What, exactly, is the 'other side' you have so much distaste for?

I didn't know about Maharaji's drinking, sexual transgressions and drug-taking until after I was no longer a premie. Since then, I have heard about them from a number of people, beginning about 14 years ago. His personal behavior does bother me, and it is relevent, since he is a 'master' and not just a politician or college professor.

But that isn't the behavior that bothers me the most. I'm most bothered by Maharaji's inability to accept responsibility or blame for anything whatsoever, and to engage in, or allow his organization to engage in, rank revisionism and lies about what actually went on in the 70s and 80s, what Maharaji's claims actually were, and waht he actually preached. I was around then; it was a significant part of my life, and I resent the cover-up. I also resent wasting 10 years in his ashram poor and celibate only to find out he really didn't give a crap about us one way or the other.

4) what are the 'actions and attitudes' you have PERSONALLY witnessed that have caused your loss of respect? .

Well, I have personally witnessed Maharaji's failure to acknowledge publicly that a lot of people got hurt by his claims to be the incarnation of God in the 70s and 80s, and seen his lies about that to this day. That's the main one.

I also witnessed Maharaji being very cruel to people on a few occasions that caused me to question the kind of 'loving' person he actually was. I didn't know him personally, so I can't comment on seeing his personal life, which is true of 99% of people who are, or have been, premies, by the way. To suggest that a personal relationship with Maharaji somehow mitigates against all that is ridiculous.

I always did have problems with his obscene wealth, but I was able to rationalize that when I was a premie, because I believed he was God and entitled to whatever he got.

I also categorize as abuse by Maharaji, some of his harrangues to us about surrendering our lives, the threats about what would happen if we stopped practicing or left the ashram, or if we got married, etc. He was particularly abusive at some of the ashram meetings.

I guess that's enough to get started.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:42:07 (EDT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It is a personal thing indeed
Message:
Joe, may I ask you a question. If you never loved Maharaji, and you didn’t really experience anything of note (I deduce this because you noticed no difference after stopping practicing), I’m curious to know why you committed so much of yourself over that 10 year period? I mean, the two primary reasons why a premie today would say they follow Maharaji -- even in light of all the negative stuff you guys are kicking around –- is they have a genuine love of Maharaji and/or a wonderful experience of practicing K. If in fact you didn’t have either, why on earth would you commit yourself to the degree you did for 10 years of your life? Straight fear and coersion?
***
***
Reading your post I can truly understand why you felt a lot better after you left. And I’m sure you are not alone. But can you see that people who DID develop a love for Maharaji and/or for the practice of Knowledge probably see things differently than you? Could that not help explain our differences? And are you able to except that premies have a different response based on these significantly different perspectives. I don't mean this to be confrontive, just wondering.
***
***
Richard
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:05:16 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: It's not so complicated
Message:
. If you never loved Maharaji, and you didn’t really experience anything of note (I deduce this because you noticed no difference after stopping practicing), I’m curious to know why you committed so much of yourself over that 10 year period?

I don't believe I ever said I 'didn't experience anything of note.' I very much wanted it to be true, and I believed, and I had faith, devotion, and that got me high at certain points. Maharaji was the object of that, but he had otherwise absolutely nothing to do with it. So, I stayed because I believed. This isn't unusual, you know. People remain monks and nuns, people stay committed to causes, even though they aren't really happy doing it because they believe in it.

PLUS, Maharaji, who I believed in, said that doubt wasn't allowed, in fact he had a commandment against it. So, if you don't allow yourself to doubt, and always discount it when you do, how do you even get objective enough to know you are unhappy and want to leave? Plus, I also believed him when he sold us that pile of crap about our minds being evil and out to get us. In fact, when I received knowledge, I immediately afterwards was given a letter signed by Maharaji himself saying that now that I had received knowledge that my mind was going to start bothering me and that I shouldn't listen to it, rather I should have faith in Maharaji and just practice knowledge.

Those are the reasons. Also, I was really young when I got involved in the cult. Plus, I think the longer you are in, it gets harder to question it, aside from the programming of the cult not to doubt, because it means that you have to question the entire purpose of your life and that's very hard. It's easier sometimes just to continue believing rather than really question, really open up to the possibility that it is all bosh. It's scary to do that, and that's why I have a lot of admiration for ex-premies who have done that, because I know how difficult it can be. It's completely worth it, though, because it's better to know the truth, be true to yourself, rather than carry on with the Maharaji security blanket.

I mean, the two primary reasons why a premie today would say they follow Maharaji -- even in light of all the negative stuff you guys are kicking around –- is they have a genuine love of Maharaji and/or a wonderful experience of practicing K. If in fact you didn’t have either, why on earth would you commit yourself to the degree you did for 10 years of your life? Straight fear and coersion?

Yes, that is the resvised version of being a premie today, as opposed to what it used to be. It was a real bait and switch. I would also have said I was having a great experience, but in addition, which I don't think premies say anymore because Maharaji has quietly dropped it from his claims, is that I would have said that the savior was on the planet and was bringing peace to the world, and I wanted to be a part of it, even if it wasn't always pleasant, even if I was too small and ignorant to understand what he was actually doing, what his 'divine plan' was, but I wanted to dedicate my life to that and serve him. Now, Maharaji has dropped all those claims, so I guess premies wouldn't say that anymore.

But in a cult, you don't just 'leave' because you are 'unhappy.' Of course you don't. We were indoctrinated by Maharaji to believe it didn't matter whether you were happy or unhappy, the point was that the purpose of your life was to devote your life to Maharaji (insert endless stupid, Hindu stories about people waiting for years cleaning their houses everyday, just waiting for on minute when the Perfect Master stops by, or enjoying being beaten by the master ,etc.)

Somehow, I think you either weren't around, or you have repressed all that.

Unless you know Maharaji personally, I do not believe what you feel for him is 'love.' Sorry, I just think that's delusion.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 22:55:26 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Richard II
Subject: Re: It is a personal thing indeed
Message:
Most of us had no real contact with God Incarnate. But, imagining we did, many of us had Divine Experiences. Just as Christians do, who imagine they have a personal connection with God.

Not that imagination is a bad thing.

I loved M for a few years, as my doorway to the Infinite. And it was good, for me. Unfortunately, Prem Pal is a fucking phony. He still pretends to be a Master. That's not good. On the spiritual path, honesty is very important. And I don't know how anyone can claim that Guru Maharaji is honest.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:27:06 (EDT)
From: Selene / SF
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Off topic and annoyed
Message:
This is the last time I'll mention this, since I think the SC person who is now using Selena likes attention and I don't want to oblige.
Once again I am not that SC person who posts
on Lifes Great. If he/she only knew!! I have been given inner agya to be Selene since 1998!!
I have just been asked for the 3rd time if I am SC. NO I AM NOT and don't want to be associated with his/her posts.
No point in asking CD to do anything about it so I'll use SF on here and AG. Imitation may be flattery but it is embarrassing in this case. I will not post over there. EVER! I leave that to kinder gentle ex's like Gerry (grin) so if you see Selena over there please it is not me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:10 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Selene / SF
Subject: Re: Off topic and chuckling
Message:
Oh Moon Goddess please email me at my new hotmail account. I can't access my old yahoo account and cannot email you. Just ask David Whitla nicely to stick with impersonating one female, ''Marolyn.'' I'm sure he will kick up a fuss because Selena Crumpet is a beloved creation of his. But David really is an obliging fellow.
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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:00:41 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ok will email
Message:
Sigh. Why am I not surprised to find out who SC is?
What's this about retiring? As long as we have people coming here to apologize for googoo we need people to speak up. And I get so pissed I have to limit my involvement lest I ruin the 'Luv Club' image
b)
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:46:16 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: Why am I not surprised to find out who SC is?
Message:
Because there are only 8 writers who say anything worthwhile on any of these forums.

And you my dear are certainly not one of them.

Isn't Anything Goes more your scene? Back you go...

SHOO!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:14:19 (EDT)
From: Selene/ SF
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: and a cheery good morning to you
Message:
Hola SC, Cerise, Catweasel, Marolyn
You may try to chase me off but I would not do same to you.
The more representatives of Maharajis Knowledge and teachings people read here, the better.
SF
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:30:25 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Selene/ SF
Subject: yea and
Message:
The more snide little jibes you make behind people's backs the more you get your fat ass kicked

Ok with me

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:34:05 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: my ass isn't fat
Message:
Are you looking at a picture of your guru by any chance?
Rant on. You are now on my official blocking software.
Go beat up on somene else, I'm sure you are capable of it.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:43:11 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: How sweet the sound
Message:
Of the huge door
of a dark, dingy, damp dungeon
crashing shut.

With the right person the other side of it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:38:01 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: is that bliss not working for you ?
Message:
I and I says there is other ways of doing the techniks. Is good to find what works for you.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 02:10:12 (EDT)
From: There's other ways of
Email: None
To: MrT
Subject: communicating too
Message:
Try English, it helps with literate people.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 04:50:42 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: There's other ways of
Subject: krusty kommunications
Message:
English is as she is spoke, David. Seen?

You's an anonymous, shape shifting reptillain troll - is english OK? And you is krusty and kross cos I and I is thinking for I and I. Is not yo' Master thinking for I and I. Seen?

So what is about, you sayin' how I is to talk? Seen?

Yous ways of communicating is coming back at yous, and you is dancing! Is the dance of the deluded to their own maya. You clear now?

Is funny, no?
Is very funny.

One love.

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Maharaji TV Broadcast
Message:
Monmot wrote a great post over on the old forum about Maharaji's satellite broadcast. Apparenly, in New York, this was available on cable access. Anyhow, Monmot had the stomach to watch the whole thing, and her comments are insightful:

I watched one in its entirety last week, although it took a little doing on my part to make myself sit there. First off, he looked like Chairman Mao (Maoraji?). After I got over that one, I observed his coy cues, smiles and innuendoes and found myself fascinated by the interplay between M and his audience. Maharaji plays them like a world class Stradivarius, evoking happy clapping, laughter, together with a nice range of sighs and knowing chuckles.

As for the content of his speech, we're talking empty calories. Cheez Whiz has more meaning. It's like showing someone the light by talking about the absence of light. M doesn't present, or represent, the light, other than to talk about where and what it is NOT. He blabbed on about how coffee is now trendy, but that the breath is never trendy and that the breath never shows up on 'best of' lists. A fabulous non-sequitur, if I may say so myself. I found most of what he had to say to be fairly negative. He surely is the Master of Negative Space, using absence as proof of presence.

Basically, my overall impression is that M's talks paint premies into an emotional and psychological corner, somehow making them feel that that compression of space and time, that compression of who they really are, and his emphasis on their fatal ignorance, masquerades as an experience of who they really are, when in fact it's really an experience of who they really aren't, and IMO is an experience of smallness, rather than one of spiritual expansion. I know this sounds like a mindfuck, but promoting self-denigration, rigidity and denial under the rubric of spirituality and the 'joy of having a Master' is just that.

I couldn't believe I spent ten years doing that.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 12:31:28 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great post !
Message:
Thanks Joe for bringing this over and to Monmot for her writing it.

IMO, the last paragraph is a keeper.

Basically, my overall impression is that M's talks paint premies into an emotional and psychological corner, somehow making them feel that that compression of space and time, that compression of who they really are, and his emphasis on their fatal ignorance, masquerades as an experience of who they really are, when in fact it's really an experience of who they really aren't, and IMO is an experience of smallness, rather than one of spiritual expansion. I know this sounds like a mindfuck, but promoting self-denigration, rigidity and denial under the rubric of spirituality and the 'joy of having a Master' is just that. (emphasis my own)

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Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:46:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Krusty! Read this one
Message:
Maybe you'll understand why we may not have to contact the station. New uninitiated viewers won't have a clue why the audience is so exstatic. It appears to take a preconceived mentality to digest his empty-say-nothing and pretend-he-did shtick!

But I'll encourage the media campaign, anyways.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:24:27 (EDT)
From: Krusty the Klown
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hey Deborah, read this one
Message:
Honey pie, check out the way your support group dishes you at Louella's place. You're a bigger joke than Sideshow Mel and Cheif Wiggum put together. Maybe it was the UFO thing that put you over the top.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:43:17 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Krusty the Klown
Subject: Re: Hey honey pie
Message:
That's their post, not mine. That post speaks about them. People react like that when they don't have a strong voice. People with strong voices stir that shit up in people.

By the way, I have received plenty of support from exes, all of whom are highly respected here. I can't control how other people think and act or react. Do you see me worried over it.

Do you see real people posting that, no. Anonomice. I'm here doing my own thing.

Do you have support here, Krusty? Worried about the poor attorney in NY? Did he hire you to support him? Did he get fired? People like you inspire us to contact NY stations, etc.

Thanks for bringing that one up, by the way. I'll do a little homework in between plotting about glasser.

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:49:00 (EDT)
From: me again-forgot to mention
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Krusty is a CLOWN with K
Message:
Thanks for making us laugh. You are a Clown with K. Keep practicing.
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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 02:56:56 (EDT)
From: Sebastion Cole
Email: None
To: me again-forgot to mention
Subject: yes, truth is funny Debutante
Message:
Particularly when it's about you, oh thorn without a Rose.

Is there a doctor in the house?

The patient's medication has worn OFF!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)
From: Mr D
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mr D
Subject: Or do they?
Message:
I dunno.



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