Court Reporter -:- Documented 'drug money' story -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 18:17:22 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Documented 'drug money' story -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 19:32:57 (EDT)

Just in! -:- Rug money supports Maharaji! -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:32:36 (EDT)

Johnson Harrington -:- You Pathetic Creep -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 18:27:02 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- You appear to be very frightened. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:26:13 (EDT)

More damning evidence! -:- Re: blood and murder money -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:52:19 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- Very funny -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:08:14 (EDT)

__ __ Little Mo -:- Never Mind That, Here Comes Mongo -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:39:52 (EDT)

JP -:- some info, pliz -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 13:14:34 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: some info, pliz -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 21:02:26 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- Also try the mother of all sites -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:24:02 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Try here to start -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 14:46:49 (EDT)

Rev John Hammond-Smyth -:- The word that cannot be spoken -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:19:05 (EDT)

__ Big Mo -:- Re: The word that cannot be spoken -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 19:39:52 (EDT)

__ Postie -:- Halle-freakin'-lujah Rev JH-S! I see delight! [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 12:17:44 (EDT)

Yeah right -:- Re: The word that cannot be spoken -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:39:19 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Bravo, Rev, Bravo! [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:32:35 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- Window of opportunity -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:25:42 (EDT)

__ bill -:- windows.net -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:28:03 (EDT)

__ Moley -:- Getting your tits out in public... -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:24:22 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Is your confidence dwindling -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:20:52 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- An old chesnut. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:27:42 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Re: An old chesnut. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:35:19 (EDT)

__ Francesca :C) -:- Passing Gas perhaps? [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:25:29 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- A question for you, first, PT... -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:10:31 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Window of opportunity still open -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:58:27 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- very dull -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:33:53 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Bleh!..................(nt) -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:42:39 (EDT)

__ Way -:- Re: Window of opportunity -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:00:51 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Of course -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:25:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ Way -:- Re: Of course -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:28:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- How about Jagdeo? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:39:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: How about Jagdeo? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:27:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: How about Jagdeo? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:12:47 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- OK - I'll give it a go -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:09:23 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Not there yet JHB -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:36:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- You missed the point (deliberately?) -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:47:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Don't be angry John!I'm trying -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:55:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm not angry in the slightest:-) -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:31:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Can In try again,John? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:58:43 (EDT)

__ MrT -:- Is it cos you likes toe kissing? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:57:44 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- I agree, Mr T -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:10:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ David -:- So do we -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:19:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Not all -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:25:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ David -:- The Royal We, maybe [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:39:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- M'Lord.............................(nt) -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:02:11 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- Dishonesty still there -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:43:23 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- Stupid beyond belief, Kenneth... -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:08:19 (EDT)

__ David -:- Drug money supports Maharaji -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:49:38 (EDT)

__ __ Even hotter! -:- Drag money supports Maharaji! -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:12:21 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Well done david! -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:07:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ David -:- Drug dealing is illegal though -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:14:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- We know it's bullshit but -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:19:17 (EDT)

__ janet -:- Re: Dishonesty still there -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:14:23 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Delivery for janet -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:21:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ David -:- So what? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:15:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Old new is no news. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:22:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ David -:- I never claimed otherwise -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:38:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- The sin of omission -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:05:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You do that every time, Ken. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:47:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You said it in spades -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:43:08 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: Dishonesty still there -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:17:39 (EDT)

__ Mr. Mind -:- Re: Dishonesty still there -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:48:27 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- No! You first! -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:03:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Please, please, me! -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:16:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Please, please, me! -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:53:49 (EDT)

Mr. Mind -:- I want this Knowledge!/ Free Will? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:36:06 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Great link guys -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:21:02 (EDT)

Deborah -:- What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:06:44 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- belief + serotonin = devotion -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:19:48 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: belief + serotonin = devotion -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:41:27 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- That's an easy question. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:34:15 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: That's an easy question. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:48:43 (EDT)

__ __ Richard II -:- Re: That's an easy question. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:36:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- May I respond??? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:50:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Re: That's an hard question. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:51:46 (EDT)

__ Catweasel -:- What is it? Practice it and find out. -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Positive pathway for the future. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:37:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ Catweasel Bristow -:- And why are you wearing that dress? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:42:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Well Cat. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:55:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: And why are you wearing that dress? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:23:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hi Janet -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:02:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel singing you -:- May the Schwartz be with you.. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:06:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Do me a favour Cat. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:00:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- The verbose -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 19:24:46 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Listen toe sucker -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:24:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Lowdown on the Cat. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:25:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ SF / Selene -:- The Lowdown Cat. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:56:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ Catweasel -:- What do you suck? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:45:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ MrT -:- yo' talkin' about the brothers, innit -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:41:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ The erudite Catweasel -:- It's fairly obvious... -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:12:47 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 17:44:55 (EDT)

__ __ Gina -:- Thank you, John, point well taken... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:45:28 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:12:24 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:47:06 (EDT)

__ __ silvia -:- Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 17:23:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:22:29 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:58:02 (EDT)

Timmi -:- this is so stupid.......... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 08:42:30 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- VERY STUPID -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:34:52 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: this is so stupid.......... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:37:50 (EDT)

__ __ Timmi -:- Re: this is so stupid.......... -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 14:53:20 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- Kabir refutes m. as master -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:07:19 (EDT)

__ __ Sandy -:- Re: Kabir refutes m. as master -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:29:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Kabir refutes m. as master -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:00:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- yep, + what kind of job? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 00:19:29 (EDT)

__ Gina -:- Re: this is so stupid.......... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 13:26:11 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Another extraordinary post--Take Care! -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:59:41 (EDT)

__ ulf -:- Re: this is so stupid.......... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:22:05 (EDT)

__ David -:- Re: this is so stupid.......... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:10:54 (EDT)

__ __ Carl -:- But M doesn't NEED to meditate . . . -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:57:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: But M doesn't NEED to meditate . . . -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 11:30:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Timmi, have you seen this... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 17:19:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Timmi, have you seen this... -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 14:51:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You're welcome -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:25:09 (EDT)

Tomkat -:- Catweasel EXPOSED... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:18:24 (EDT)

__ Catweasel -:- Re: Catweasel EXPOSED... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:08:25 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- how apropos -- haha. cute! [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 13:33:15 (EDT)

gerry -:- OK, it's not earthshaking but... -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 21:57:46 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: OK, it's not earthshaking but... -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:25:24 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Send media or newcomers here -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:25:33 (EDT)

__ such -:- heard from Rich, too -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:49:22 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- Re: OK, it's not earthshaking but... -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:13:22 (EDT)

Irene -:- The Spanish Foro Still OPEN -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:45:42 (EDT)

Dave -:- Don't worry about message at top -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 15:16:30 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Page is looking better Dave -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:02:33 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- check email [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:23:36 (EDT)

la-ex -:- suggestion to premies on how to give to maharaji.. -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:33:50 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- love the third one -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:36:24 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: GREAT suggestions to premies -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:31:10 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Re: GREAT suggestions to premies -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 18:01:57 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- you didn't know?? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:29:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: you didn't know?? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:10:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- ROFL hahahahahaha -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:43:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: M & M & M -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:44:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ sivan -:- Re: you didn't know?? -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:30:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: you didn't know?? -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:40:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ me again -:- Typo: Read 'Hi Sivan' -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:52:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: you didn't know?? -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:45:04 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Re: GREAT suggestions to premies -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:35:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: GREAT suggestions to premies -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:45:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: GREAT suggestions to premies -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:07:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: GREAT suggestions to premies -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:25:44 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- Knowledge = happiness myth -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:41:01 (EDT)

Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 18:17:22 (EDT) From: Court Reporter Email: None To: All Subject: Documented 'drug money' story Message:

Does anyone remember a Washington, D.C. satellite community in Harper's Ferry, West Virginia in the late 70's, early 80's? There were half a dozen premies involved, who owned and/or worked for several businesses, and were quite active. They did quite well, and a considerable amount of money was sent to Rawat. Around the spring of 1980, a police raid on the community leader's home uncovered a considerable amount of cash, a pound of cocaine and some marijuana. This was all reported in the local papers at the time, except for the Rawat connection. Ring any bells?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 19:32:57 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Court Reporter Subject: Re: Documented 'drug money' story Message:

Hard to keep up. Lots of premies were into drugs and importation.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:32:36 (EDT) From: Just in! Email: None To: All Subject: Rug money supports Maharaji! Message:

According to several very reliable sources, Amir Tarkanian, a Turkish aspirant, has been raising money for the Guru via the sales of expensive, patterned rugs, both area and throw in various sizes. Several of the recent European Guru visits were partially financed by these sales. Wake up, people! This is happening now, in 2001!

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 18:27:02 (EDT) From: Johnson Harrington Email: None To: Just in! Subject: You Pathetic Creep Message:

Very clever, Mr Wiseguy. These childish posts will do nothing to stop the world discovering the truth about the Maharaji's membership of the Medellin cartel and his recent stay at the Betty Ford Clinic. The secret is OUT. The press will be whipped up into a pirana-like frenzy and your foot fetish days are OVER.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:26:13 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Just in! Subject: You appear to be very frightened. Message:

This is only a cyber forum. You don't have to run and hide. The exes didn't start the thread, bozo, one of your own did. And read his silly retorts. Guy made a mistake by posting such a laughable statement. Now look at what you have to do to balance the faux pas. Try a different strategy, you might get somewhere.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:52:19 (EDT) From: More damning evidence! Email: None To: Just in! Subject: Re: blood and murder money Message:

Special investigative forces have learned that Joe McPutsy, a Philadelphia hot dog vendor, has paid for his reservation to programs with money acquired from McPutsy's role as a hot dog vendor. The media must be alerted immediately that the murder-for-meat business is behind maharaji's quest for Glabal Domination. The Hebrew National factory is now being kept under strict 24-hour surveillance. It is clear that maharaji has BLOOD on his hands!! here's the PROOF!!! http://206.61.100.37

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:08:14 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: More damning evidence! Subject: Very funny Message:

Does Maharaji get complimentary hotdogs? Looks like it.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:39:52 (EDT) From: Little Mo Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Never Mind That, Here Comes Mongo Message:

.........................Hotdogs................Rugs.............Burgers.................Pussy................Cognac.................Coke......................S&M....................Charcoal Suits & Brown Shoes........(purleeese!!!).................Bad Taste In Women....................Hey, When Did We Drop This Stuff!!??..........................Anyone Got Any E??...........Halitosis.........................Hotdogs................Rugs.............Burgers.................Pussy................Cognac.................Coke......................S&M....................Charcoal Suits & Brown Shoes........(purleeese!!!).................Bad Taste In Women....................Hey, When Did We Drop This Stuff!!??..........................Anyone Got Any E??.................Halitosis.........................Hotdogs................Rugs.............Burgers.................Pussy................Cognac.................Coke......................S&M....................Charcoal Suits & Brown Shoes........(purleeese!!!).................Bad Taste In Women....................Hey, When Did We Drop This Stuff!!??..........................Anyone Got Any E??...........Halitosis.........................Hotdogs................Rugs.............Burgers.................Pussy................Cognac.................Coke......................S&M....................Charcoal Suits & Brown Shoes........(purleeese!!!).................Bad Taste In Women....................Hey, When Did We Drop This Stuff!!??..........................Anyone Got Any E??.................Halitosis

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 13:14:34 (EDT) From: JP Email: Ancestor@www.com To: All Subject: some info, pliz Message:

I'm doing some kind of personal research about M. I'm not ex nothing, I'm not into nothing. Just wandering if there's more web pages exposing M's big scheme and the corporation biz.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 21:02:26 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: JP Subject: Re: some info, pliz Message:

here is a list of links that puts most of the important links in one place. Links

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:24:02 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: JP Subject: Also try the mother of all sites Message:

Try this one. The 'Best of Forum' is one part of this main site. The white papers are good. Just check the categories and happy reading. [ Ex-Premie.org ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 14:46:49 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: JP Subject: Try here to start Message:

Good luck. [ Best of Forum ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:19:05 (EDT) From: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Email: pulpit@church.com To: All Subject: The word that cannot be spoken Message:

The Word That Cannot Be Spoken The Nameless One And it came to pass that in those times, there dwelt in the Land of Prem, a prophet whose name was Charles the Nameless One. And he didst preach unto the multitudes his message of hate, and lo, his church was called the Church of Hate by the Children of Ex-prem. And Charles the Nameless One went out unto the Lands of Prem and Ex-prem, even unto the Land of Lifes (sic) Great to spread his divine message and he causeth a great consternation to fall upon the land, yea, even unto the King and Queen whose names were Brian and Katie. And The Nameless One didst mock the children of Ex-prem and taunteth their prophets and leaders and sayeth that they were unclean and quoteth from their scriptures of Saint Deborah and Saint Silvia saying, ''This is the proof that these people are an abomination in our land, for they are not professional writers like myself and know not the ways of the law. ''For verily I say unto you, I am a nationally graded fencer and have fought against the 12,453rd best warrior in the country and didst smite him with my foil.'' And The Nameless One didst see that it was good, for his church didst proclaim his own glory unto all the land. And it came to pass that in the Forum of Ex-prem, there appeared a judge whose name was Bazza the Great. And he didst speak unto the Forum, saying, ''Woe to you, you Nameless One, for it is written in the secret texts of this place that thou art a lawyer whose name is Glasser.'' And the Children of Ex-prem all trembled and fell upon their faces as he spake thus, for he had uttered the name of the Nameless One. And the King and Queen didst tear their clothes on hearing the Name of The Nameless One spoken. And they sayeth, ''O Bazza the Great, thou hast spoken the name that shall never be spoken and now thou must get thee hence from this place unto a land far away.'' And Bazza the Great didst take his leave and travelled unto the land of Lifes (sic) Great where he sought solace amongst the seers and prophets of that place. And there came upon the Children of Ex-prem, a great tribulation as more and more people didst dare to speak the name of The Nameless One. Some sayeth that this was the work of the Devil and that The Nameless One had been sent from Satan to turn the Children of Ex-prem against one another. And lo, a great argument rose forth from the multitudes and they spake the words of war, such as ''Get lost asshole'' and ''Fuck you'' and there was a wailing and gnashing of teeth as nobody could agree on anything. The Tribulation of Jim Behold, in a vision I see the prophet, Jim of Heller, and he standeth alone in the wilderness. For Jim hath been cast out of the temple and he waileth unto the winds and yet no man heareth him. He seeketh refuge in the Land of AG and doth wander even unto the Land of Lifes (sic) Great. Yea, verily, his argument hath fallen upon deaf ears there for no man shall listen to him in that place. The Battle And I see rivers of blood that flow out of this land and I see the sons and daughters of Ex-prem in mortal combat against each other. I see them lift sword and dagger in anger and brother smites sister and sister smites brother. And I hear a voice rise up from the battle and lo, it is the voice of a great prophet from the City of Angels, for he sayeth, ''Thou canst stick thy forum up thine ass!'' And for many days and nights the battle rages, and they fight upon Forum V and unto the battlefield of AG thereon and still there is no end, for no man giveth an inch. And the prophets all say with one voice, ''Verily, we shall tear ourselves apart, for this is the Nameless One's doing and his power comes from Satan.'' And lo, I hear another voice that cometh from the battlefield and it is the voice of the Lady Deborah. And she sayeth, ''Canst thou lead us from this place, unto a better land?'' and the boy David sayeth, ''Consider it done.'' After the Battle And there was a new Heaven and a new Forum and the Children of Ex-prem all layed down their swords and wept, for the fighting had been the fiercest ever seen in those times. And they travelled unto a land of wheat background and funny heads, where all men were free to speak what was on their minds. And the boy David sayeth, ''This land is yours and I will not interfere (too much) therein. For verily I say unto you, we all share a past that is unique amongst men and though we now walk upon different paths and have different brethren, let us not forget that we were once together.''

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 19:39:52 (EDT) From: Big Mo Email: None To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Re: The word that cannot be spoken Message:

ALLELLUJAH!! dah Rev HaV SpOke

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 12:17:44 (EDT) From: Postie Email: None To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Halle-freakin'-lujah Rev JH-S! I see delight! [nt] Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:39:19 (EDT) From: Yeah right Email: None To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Re: The word that cannot be spoken Message:

Then how do you explain this little gem below? Looks like some folks jes' can't help themselves. New dawn for the forum? Looks like the same nightmare from here... --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Posted: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:24:22 (EDT) Original: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT) Posted by: Silvia Recipient: Catweasel Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) Subject: Listen toe sucker Message: YOU ARE AN IDIOT! You enjoy it? Let it be it. We got tired of it. We left. We WANT to TALK BAD about it. Is good for us. We like it. We find enjoyment telling the truth, get it? You sound like your pompous ass MARIACHI! GO SERENADE SOMEWHERE ELSE. Let us alone. SCRAM! WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE, premie, little, small, needy, yuck...toe sucker!?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:32:35 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Rev John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Bravo, Rev, Bravo! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:25:42 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: All Subject: Window of opportunity Message:

Come on! Give me your best shot. I've read all the postings. I still think M and K are in the clear. 30 minute free for all, starting now. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:28:03 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: windows.net Message:

Hi Pass, What have you been doing lately. I mean, what else that has nothing to do with the god issue. Have any hobbies? Activities you like? WHere do you wander on the web? WHere do you live anyway........You have passed through occasionally for a number of years, how many folks do you live with?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:24:22 (EDT) From: Moley Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: Getting your tits out in public... Message:

OK. So in 1977, direct agya from M banned sex before marriage for aspirants. Swiftly followed, in 1978, by agya to stop breast feeding our babies in public and to not educate our kids at home.. Interesting, or what? Especially considering Hans Ji and the other spoiled Rawat-brats subsequent unorthodox education! Still, I suppose you'll just tell me that the Lord of the Universe has special privileges not afforded the unrealised? Well?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:20:52 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Is your confidence dwindling Message:

Hey, you said it: I still think M and K are in the clear.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:27:42 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: An old chesnut. Message:

Come on! Give me your best shot. I've read all the postings. I still think M and K are in the clear. 30 minute free for all, starting now. PT --- What are your three main criticisms of Captain Rawat? Anth the JHB

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:35:19 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: An old chesnut. Message:

Come on! Give me your best shot. I've read all the postings. I still think M and K are in the clear. 30 minute free for all, starting now. PT --- What are your three main criticisms of Captain Rawat? Anth the JHB --- Come on, admit you think god tastes of snot! JHB the Anth

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:25:29 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Passing Gas perhaps? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:10:31 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Passing Through Subject: A question for you, first, PT... Message:

Are you the same 'Passing Though' who passed through a couple of years ago using the same alias? Spent a few months arguing similar points as you, too. I think it would help people with long memories to know if they might be engaging in futile repetition when they opt to converse with you. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:58:27 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Window of opportunity still open Message:

You've read ALL the postings? Archives too? Check the link - http://www.geocities.com/forumarchives1/search.htm oh, and if you think M is still 'in the clear' (you mean innocent?) after conning thousands of people into following him because he claimed to be the new messiah - well, you obviously approve of con-artists. Now, where's your 30-minute reply to all this? [ archives ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:33:53 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: very dull Message:

Hurry up and pass on through why don't you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:42:39 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Bleh!..................(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:00:51 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Window of opportunity Message:

That's a bit open ended. Care to take on any one of the 14 objections and discuss it?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:25:03 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Way Subject: Of course Message:

Ready when you are. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:28:29 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Of course Message:

No, you pick.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:39:46 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Way Subject: How about Jagdeo? Message:

Jagdeo is a paedophile. M is told he is a paedophile. Therefore M supports paedophiles? How about, M is disgusted like everyone else. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:27:11 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: How about Jagdeo? Message:

PC, Ah yes, the infamous Jagdeo affair. An important concern is for the victims. Another concern is about what should happen to Jagdeo now. But I think the primary philosophical concern for premies and ex-premies who are personally removed from the crimes themselves is the question about when Mr. Rawat was first informed about the crimes and what this means about his character. Susan told both Judy and Randy in the 1970's and both of those people reported back to her that they had informed Rawat. Abi told Mahatma Guru Charnanand. Therefore, Rawat either knew very early on or he was kept in the dark about the situation by his closest associates. Either way, the situation looks very bad for Rawat. I suppose that premies would prefer to think that Rawat was never told until recently, since this would be the best of the alternatives for Rawat's reputation. We know that Rawat's reputation is the primary concern for himself and his cult followers. They are willing to hide Rawat from the law in any circumstance, (but the hit and run incident is another topic). I think the major concern for ex-premies is that Rawat should definitely have had more of a handle on the activities of his mahatmas. That fact that one of his representatives was busy molesting premie children (there are several victims) of course does not mean that Rawat supports paedophiles, but the situation does reflect very badly on him. It seems most likely to me that Rawat was told by Randy, Judy, and Charanand. It seems that Jagdeo was allowed to continue his service, nevertheless. Certain premies have said that they were asked to keep a special vigilance on Jagdeo, so it seems most likely that many people were in fact aware of the situation. If this is the case, then Rawat can be judged as a person without common human decency. As it stands now, I think it is the opinion of most ex-premies that Rawat has not done nearly enough about this situation. He has made no official recompense to the victims, nor has he offered any apology or explanation to his followers about this situation. All he has done, to my knowledge, is to meet with Abi's father and offer him some private words of regret. What he has done regarding Jagdeo himself is unknown to us. The very fact that none of us know what has been done about Jagdeo now is regretable. People who follow Rawat deserve to know the truth about this situation. But Rawat evidently feels that he owes nobody any explanations. At the very least, he could make some sort of conciliatory offer to the victims. And such a move should not come from some personnel from Elan Vital. So, PT, do you have a different perspective and opinion about this objection? If so, what is it? Even if you disagree with the ex-premie viewpoint about this situation, you surely must realize that we do have a right to make the strenuous objection that we have made.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:12:47 (EDT) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: How about Jagdeo? Message:

How about, 'Why doesn't M bring him to justice rather than hiding him away?' That's a better question..... Any unenlightened idiot can just turn his head and pretend it didn't happen.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:09:23 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: OK - I'll give it a go Message:

The cosmic experiences that some people have after receiving knowledge are unrelated to the grace of the master. The proof of this is that people who follow all such 'masters' claim the same type of cosmic experience, and others who follow no 'master' also claim the same type of cosmic experience. The interpretation of those cosmic experiences as 'divine' or 'true' (in some unexplained 'absolute' sense) is not based on real evidence, but is just an assumption based on what the subject has been led to believe. For you to love or, more correctly, worship Maharaji because you have had some cosmic experiences in meditation orin his presence is intellectually dishonest on your part. And if there is no such connection between the experience and Maharaji, and especially if the experience is not one of divinity or absolute truth, then Maharaji's hunger for riches, and his insistence that we hold in in extremely high regard, looks like the con that I believe it is. OK - how did I do? John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:36:46 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: JHB Subject: Not there yet JHB Message:

My love for my wife is intellectually dishonest because I cannot make you feel it and therefore it isn't happening? In fact, I experience a very direct connection between practicing Knowledge and how I feel. How's that. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:47:25 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: You missed the point (deliberately?) Message:

You ignored my central point about cosmic experiences, and the incorrect interpretation of them, so please try again. John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:55:21 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: JHB Subject: Don't be angry John!I'm trying Message:

I can't be enjoying any experience, cosmic or otherwise, because I can't convince you. How's that? PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:31:05 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: I'm not angry in the slightest:-) Message:

PT, You must a little hard of understanding, so I'll try to write very slowly. When you had your cosmic experience that convinced you that k was the 'truth' and that Maharaji was the 'master' you made an intellectual jump that I now argue was not justified based upon the evidence. I have now told you that many people have such cosmic experiences and come to quite different conclusions about what the experiences mean. You haven't responded to this. Telling me you love your wife, like Roy Orbison, and enjoy cosmic experiences, is nothing to do with making the logical leap that knowledge is the 'truth' and that Maharaji is the 'master', now is it? John the trying to deal with the intellectually challenged.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 10:58:43 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Can In try again,John? Message:

How about, I love Roy Orbison. His songs mean something to me but you think he stinks. Is that closer? I can't be getting good feelings from that crap? PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:57:44 (EDT) From: MrT Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Is it cos you likes toe kissing? Message:

You's a man who loves and RESPECTS his master, innit? 'Cept you is ashamed so you is hiding? Is hard to understand.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:10:17 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: MrT Subject: I agree, Mr T Message:

I do love my master. But hey, I love my wife, my ex-wife, my child, my mother, my family, my friends. In fact, I have an optimistic feeling for humanity in general. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:19:50 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: So do we Message:

and let's face it, we'd be out of business if he packed it in.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:25:59 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: Not all Message:

Do you mean 'you' or do you mean 'us'? PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:39:33 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: The Royal We, maybe [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:02:11 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: M'Lord.............................(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:43:23 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: All Subject: Dishonesty still there Message:

Despite the fact that the statment 'Drug money used to finance M' is clearly dishonest and illogical, this forum continues to promote it. Make up your minds. Are you iinterested in the truth or only the opinions that conform with your own? PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:08:19 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.do.uk To: Passing Through Subject: Stupid beyond belief, Kenneth... Message:

(Do you mind if I call you Kenneth? - not wishing to insult folk called Kenneth, of course - it's just I am not comfortable talking to glove-puppets..) 'Dishonest and illogical' re. Honesty: Passing on what you know from past experience, if done in good faith, is not dishonest. How can it be, Ken? re. Illogical: Premies take drugs (gurus too, I hear). Selling drugs makes money, money gets people to festivals. pays registration and further's guru's mission. Makes sense to me. Did you hear about those impoverished Brazilian sisters who prostitute themselves to get to festivals? Another time, maybe... Correct us on points of fact if you know someone is lying, but leave out the 'dishonest and illogical'. Please.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:49:38 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: Drug money supports Maharaji Message:

If I were to make a small fortune from prostitution, on the pimping side and then donated a lot of the money to Maharaji, you could say that prostitution supports Maharaji. You might also say that prostitution, drug money and second hand book sales support Maharaji. You might also just say that second hand book sales support Maharaji. Nobody is claiming that drug money exclusively supports Maharaji. That would be silly. Why there's embezzlement of funds donated for propagation as well.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:12:21 (EDT) From: Even hotter! Email: None To: David Subject: Drag money supports Maharaji! Message:

In West Hollywood, CA, a bake sale (including several extremely suggestive pastries) conducted by several female impersonators raised money for the current knowledge sessions. Scandalous! Where will it end? The horror.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:07:14 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: Well done david! Message:

Yes, that's right David. You could also say that 'Single mothers support M', 'Sailors support M', even 'Millionaires support M'. What I object to, and you should, is that this Forum takes one occupation out of thousands and highlights it. It's the equivalent of saying 'PT is a lazy, imperfect, ignoramous because he didn't put apostrephes around 'Forum'. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:14:01 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: Drug dealing is illegal though Message:

which is why it's been highlighted. Anyway, you're the one who keeps highlighting it. After a few months it will be old hat, just like the mistresses and the dope smoking have become.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:19:17 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: We know it's bullshit but Message:

what about others? Uninformed and agressive people might assume that this 'Forum' is believable. And attack M because of it. Just because a lie gets old doesn't make it any more honest. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:14:23 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Dishonesty still there Message:

its too bad that your level of denial is so strong that you can't handle the truth. people who did the drug deals and witnessed the money have no reason to lie about it except for the fact that it could have gotten them prison time or shot. in view of that, their willingly making the reality known took a hell of a lot of courage than you possess to look at it and integrate what that means. Considering the risk, the easy way out would be for them to lie and deny it. But they don't. You, on the other hand, have all the reason in the world to want to believe a lie, because of what you stand to lose if you believe the truth. youre quite right. dishonesty IS still in force. but its not with us. we've taken the rough step of busting it and seeing what wsent on for wwhat it was. probably still is.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:21:05 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: janet Subject: Delivery for janet Message:

No Janet. I'm not denying that sluts, drug users, bankrupts and adulterers support M but sluts, drug users, bankrupts and adulterers support the Pope. So what! PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:15:58 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: So what? Message:

It's a newsworthy item. And we're in the news business here.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:22:10 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: Old new is no news. Message:

It is news but of the most puerile sort. A blend of sex, power and money puts you firmly in the tabloid class. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 08:38:42 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: I never claimed otherwise Message:

but tabloids write the truth, too. Certainly, in the UK, they are not allowed to print lies and if they do they can get hefty libel suits and have to pay out huge sums. Just because it's spicy, doesn't mean it's not true. So which part do you think isn't true?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 09:05:07 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: The sin of omission Message:

Everything is true! Everything is disputable. Manipulation is achieved by how you proportion the true and the disputable. PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:47:06 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: You do that every time, Ken. Message:

ie. switch to haiku-aphorism mode. Why not answer the question?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:43:08 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: You said it in spades Message:

Everything is true! Everything is disputable. Manipulation is achieved by how you proportion the true and the disputable. PT --- The E.V mindset and your Master's voice. How about the TRUTH is achieved by applying native wit and understanding to revelations kept carefully hidden for a quarter of a century + . Revelations which neither you nor any other of your ilk are prepared to address . And why not ?...because you don't give a fuck about it all do you ? I have no beef with 'grunt' premies who have no internet access & there are lots as I'm sure you're well aware , but people like you who know all the issues and still maintain that Rawat is ...??? You don't say what....God maybe ? FUCK OFFF Truth Will Out motherfucker : who knows how , who knows when ,but when it does & however distorted it may have become in the process ,people like you will have the glorious option of going down with the Captain . I look forward to the day.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:17:39 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: Dishonesty still there Message:

its too bad that your level of denial is so strong that you can't handle the truth. people who did the drug deals and witnessed the money have no reason to lie about it except for the fact that it could have gotten them prison time or shot. in view of that, their willingness making the reality known took a hell of a lot more courage than you possess to look at it and integrate what that means. Considering the risk, the easy way out would be for them to lie and deny it. But they don't. You, on the other hand, have all the reason in the world to want to believe a lie, because of what you stand to lose if you believe the truth. youre quite right. dishonesty IS still in force. but its not with us. we've taken the rough step of busting it and seeing what went on for wwhat it was. probably still is. ---

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:48:27 (EDT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Dishonesty still there Message:

then get fat boy to come out of hiding and answer some questions..that would get it all cleared up

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:03:42 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Mr. Mind Subject: No! You first! Message:

Questions please! PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:16:27 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Please, please, me! Message:

Come on Mr Mind. What don't you know? PT

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:53:49 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Please, please, me! Message:

How do you Address the unpleasant personality and utter lack of compassion that Mr Rawat exhibits in his personal life, no signs of caring or sharing . No responsibility for his own mistakes and a wall of silence instead of open communication with both his followers and questioners. A very poor teacher in my opinion. The best teaching is by example, remember

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:36:06 (EDT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: All Subject: I want this Knowledge!/ Free Will? Message:

Many of the techniques in this link were/are used to bring us to the point of thinking we wanted K of our own free will. [ manipulation ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:21:02 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Mr. Mind Subject: Re: Great link guys Message:

zzz

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:06:44 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: All Subject: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! Message:

This Knowledge thing is being so fiercely defended by Maha and his EV circus. Premies defend Knowledge even when it is not being contested. So, what is KNOWLEDGE? What happens when a person accepts a Knowledge session?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:19:48 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Deborah Subject: belief + serotonin = devotion Message:

Or in 100 words: 'Knowledge' refers to (a) 'an experience' or (b) 'set of devotional procedures'. As 'experience' Knowledge is euphoria, well-being, rush of serotonin - no more/less profound than anyone else's. What a premie experiences during (b), if euphoric, is considered authentic K; but if less than euphoric, merely mind. Euphoria happens in deep relaxation (meditation), group highs (events) and in an infantile bonding with authority love figure. Partial shut-down of perceptual centres in meditation provides mild hallucigenic quality, but Knowledge is neither infinite nor cosmic. Just psycho-physiological cause and biochemical effect. The 'K'-word is, in fact, redundant - as should the Master be.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:41:27 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: belief + serotonin = devotion Message:

Thanks Nige. I'm just really curious how everyone perceives KNOWLEDGE. Maha rarely says 'boo' about a Most-Special Gift. WEIRD. How could something so important to humanity be spoken of so little? Do the premies even know what KNOWLEDGE is? What do they say to people when people ask, 'So what is Knowledge'? Do they just tell them to go to a program and let the BigHead tell them? But the BigHead doesn't talk about Knowledge, his presence just gives the crowd an adrenal rush. So much investment on the part of the premies to support his warped life endeavor.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:34:15 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: That's an easy question. Message:

This Knowledge thing is being so fiercely defended by Maha and his EV circus. Premies defend Knowledge even when it is not being contested. So, what is KNOWLEDGE? What happens when a person accepts a Knowledge session? --- Hi, Knowledge, or course, is an experience. It is not a belief. It is what you see and feel, when you press your eyeballs. It is what you hear when you stick your thumbs in your ear. It is what you taste when you stick your tongue to the back of your throat. It is what you feel when you follow your breath, going, 'So Hung' at the same time. I think even the premies agree with that. The trouble is, premies think the patterns they see when they press their eyes, and the sound they hear when they stick their thumbs in their ears, and what they taste at the back of their throat, and what they feel when they follow their breath, is a direct experience of the life force, commonly known as 'God'. This is of course, utter bullshit. God is not patterns of 'light' or the rumbling of blood in your ears, or the mucoid like taste in your mouth. Although premies say it's not about belief, it is. You have to belief that your experience is 'divine'. Maharaji's cult is still called, 'Divine Light Mission' in lots of places. You also have to belief that Maharaji is the Perfect Master, the embodiment of 'Knowledge' in a human body, ie 'God on Earth'. Once you remove the two pillars of the premie religion, 'Knowledge is God within,' and 'Maharaji is the Perfect Master', you're left with a tatty, Mickey Mouse style, hindu cult, and a bloke suffering delusions of grandeur the like you've never seen before. It's a crock of shit. Anth the wise.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:48:43 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: That's an easy question. Message:

Thanks for the feedback Anth. The level of committment is atrocious, isn't it? For Maha to transfer the inner contenment and/or pseudo psychodelic experiences to Maha is criminal. I had huge experiences of serendipidy. A lot of faith produced a lot of confirmation, the confirmation strengthened the faith and on and on it went. I appreciate your $.02

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 15:36:02 (EDT) From: Richard II Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: That's an easy question. Message:

Okay Anth the wise, you have passed the definitive judgement on what God is not, that is it is not an inner kaleidescope, the pulsing of blood through your veins, snot, and a replicated sound of your breath rising and falling. Now, in order to justify the lofty position you have taken as someone who knows something about the subject, I think it incumbent upon you to present your credentials. You've informed us what God IS NOT, so the credentials we will need from you are nothing less than now being able to tell us what God in fact IS. Don't you think that's fair? So now please speak from your experiences of knowing God, oh great one, and share your valuable insights with us who are ignorant. Please tell us how we can know God for ourselves. Could you also please debunk all those references to these so-called aspects of the Divine that show up through time in so many scriptures, so we can once and for all get on with the real business of knowing the ultimate. I sit at your feet awaiting your wisdom, oh frilly frock-ed one. Richard

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:50:51 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Richard II Subject: May I respond??? Message:

I wrote this to Passing Through above, and he/she has failed to respond. You sound like an intelligent person, so maybe you could have a go. I'm not claiming to know what God is, just making a point about the cosmic experiences that I, and others, have had. The cosmic experiences that some people have after receiving knowledge are unrelated to the grace of the master. The proof of this is that people who follow all such 'masters' claim the same type of cosmic experience, and others who follow no 'master' also claim the same type of cosmic experience. The interpretation of those cosmic experiences as 'divine' or 'true' (in some unexplained 'absolute' sense) is not based on real evidence, but is just an assumption based on what the subject has been led to believe. For you to love or, more correctly, worship Maharaji because you have had some cosmic experiences in meditation, or in his presence, is intellectually dishonest on your part. And if there is no such connection between the experience and Maharaji, and especially if the experience is not one of divinity or absolute truth, then Maharaji's hunger for riches, and his insistence that we hold him in extremely high regard, looks like the con that I believe it is. John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:51:46 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Re: That's an hard question. Message:

Okay Anth the wise, you have passed the definitive judgement on what God is not, that is it is not an inner kaleidescope, the pulsing of blood through your veins, snot, and a replicated sound of your breath rising and falling. Now, in order to justify the lofty position you have taken as someone who knows something about the subject, I think it incumbent upon you to present your credentials. You've informed us what God IS NOT, so the credentials we will need from you are nothing less than now being able to tell us what God in fact IS. Don't you think that's fair? So now please speak from your experiences of knowing God, oh great one, and share your valuable insights with us who are ignorant. Please tell us how we can know God for ourselves. Could you also please debunk all those references to these so-called aspects of the Divine that show up through time in so many scriptures, so we can once and for all get on with the real business of knowing the ultimate. I sit at your feet awaiting your wisdom, oh frilly frock-ed one. Richard --- Hi Richard, Whether you think it's 'fair' or not, as regards 'What is God?' I haven't a fucking clue. Anth the ignorant.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 21:38:37 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Deborah Subject: What is it? Practice it and find out. Message:

There is no mystery. As Dave said last week it can be a relaxing and enjoyable experience. I couldn't care less whether you do or you dont. But for something you espouse to have no interest in ,it's fascinating to see you dedicate so much of your time to researching every aspect of it. Reaction is the easiest of earnest activities. What do you do that is creative , renewing and offering a positive pathway for the future? Or do you just bitch?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 05:37:17 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Positive pathway for the future. Message:

Hey Cat, Do you think spending your life in a religious cult, supporting a fucked-up, failed, master in a life of decadent luxury is paving a pathway for the future, all I can say is your future doesn't look too bright from here. Anthstrodamus

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:42:49 (EDT) From: Catweasel Bristow Email: None To: AJW Subject: And why are you wearing that dress? Message:

That is why you are hidden away down in Cornwall living the life of a pirate and I'm happily making my way in the new world.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:55:49 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Catweasel Bristow Subject: Well Cat. Message:

That is why you are hidden away down in Cornwall living the life of a pirate and I'm happily making my way in the new world. --- A couple of things Cat. The 'New World' ain't so new. People have been living down there for about 30,000 years. The island I live on has only been inhabited for about a third of that. So really, I'm in the 'New World' and you're in the old one. As regards the dress. I'm getting in touch with the female side of my nature. Want me to send some pics? Anth the Post-Glacial-Drag-Queen.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:23:20 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Catweasel Bristow Subject: Re: And why are you wearing that dress? Message:

your continent was populated by felons with life sentences who were banished from england. at least anth wasn't. and we americans left because we wanted to have a relationship with god without anyone telling us how we could and couldnt.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:02:44 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: Hi Janet Message:

What say you about KNOWLEDGE?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:06:20 (EDT) From: Catweasel singing you Email: None To: janet Subject: May the Schwartz be with you.. Message:

Go back five generations here and you have free settlers. Poor Paddies from Limerick and dour Scottish squatters claiming huge tracts of land. The 1850's and races of every kind descended on the Goldfields to make their fortune. Even Yanks! Frankly being the international world traveller that I am , I can say with no false modesty that we live in a very free society. A tolerant society. Reconcilliation with the native inhabitants is real. Look at the half a million people that walked over Sydney Harbour Bridge in a symbolic display of solidarity. Our current nasty mean minded bunch of lily livered fascists in Goverment are about to be turfed out. What can you expect from a Goverment lead by a short arsed Duck like-man named Howard with two key Cabinent members called Abbott and Costello?? Simply Janet your grand illusion was borne of the same flight to freedom as ours. The poor, the disaffected and the persecuted bolting from the vice-like grip of the most class bound society on earth-the fucking Poms.It is reflected in everything coming out of that God forsaken pit of exploitation -including the smooth and unfortunate Anth Our continent was populated by a gentle peace loving people.Only now has the whiteman started to hear the land. Kan Guru's? Take me to your living heart.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:00:21 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Catweasel singing you Subject: Do me a favour Cat. Message:

Is being an Aborigine in Queensland still a crime punishable by death? Anth the Smooth, Unfortunate, Irish Pom.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 19:24:46 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: AJW Subject: The verbose Message:

No

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:24:22 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Listen toe sucker Message:

YOU ARE AN IDIOT! You enjoy it? Let it be it. We got tired of it. We left. We WANT to TALK BAD about it. Is good for us. We like it. We find enjoyment telling the truth, get it? You sound like your pompous ass MARIACHI! GO SERENADE SOMEWHERE ELSE. Let us alone. SCRAM! WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE, premie, little, small, needy, yuck...toe sucker!?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 17:25:51 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Lowdown on the Cat. Message:

Hi Silvia, Maybe I can give you a bit of insight as to why the Cat posts here. As you may expect, it's related to his personality. He's the kind of person (like myself) who loves an audience, and most of all, loves the sound of his own voice. In the old days, when he 'gave satsang' it was impossible to shut him up. If you're ever on your own with him in a room, he'll nail you to the wall with his babble. Leave the room to get away from him, and one of two things will happen. Either he'll follow you out, continuing his babble, or he'll continue talking to the wall for a few moments, until he realises there's nobody else in the room. He's been extremely frustrated since the Captain told everybody to stop talking about the 'experience of inner snot'. This forum is his only outlet. He's a heavy-duty-fanatic. But he's also a generous soul, so don't be too hard on him. Anth the RSPCA Inspector.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 20:56:08 (EDT) From: SF / Selene Email: None To: AJW Subject: The Lowdown Cat. Message:

Since beginning posting on AG I managed to avoid the Catweeeezler for at least a year. It may have been more. Or less. I consider it a good sign that I am not sure. Then, I was able to converse with him because he liked that I was mad at Jim on at least 3 occasions. Then it dawned on me that the Cat had been attacking me and others with his other aliases. several this year. He outs himself he can't resist bragging and strutting about, you got that right. So, no I do not think he is a generous soul. In fact I think he is creepy he profiles reads studies and targets weaknesses. The word stalking isn't exactly right but it's the second one that comes to mind after profiling. In particular with his latest identities. Anyone who wants to should be hard on him. (I feel a bad pun cumming on but never mind) It feels good to say this. Jim if you are reading I apologize for any times I sided with the weasel in an argument with you. Of course this will bring on a cat spray attack AGAIN. oh well ezekial rant on I will not answer. BECAUSE I don't have to b) and because: This post is not for you it's a warning to others. CAT=cerise=ezkial=SC and all her derivitve little names=MK=Marolyn and perhaps Rob? btw Cat a common sentiment in our English Dept is that editors and proofers (almost used pofters here haha - are hung up on grammar while the best creative writers don't' give a fuck about it. Cheers Silly Cat. Selene the mange inspector

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:45:16 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Silvia Subject: What do you suck? Message:

Congratulations you behave like the second most illiterate wannabee on this site. Suck on that!

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 07:41:54 (EDT) From: MrT Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: yo' talkin' about the brothers, innit Message:

illiterate means can't read, y'understand? Is it you's thinking -- the word for a person who can't think. Heh, methinks it's a weazel ! Is you goin' to tell us of the the toe kissing and how good it make you feel? I's askin' nicely, see?

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 11:12:47 (EDT) From: The erudite Catweasel Email: None To: MrT Subject: It's fairly obvious... Message:

The Girl can't read hence my point! You dig ? And I believe you quite enjoy sucking on one of these MrT. Hang on and I'll give you a big blow. It will knock the top of your head off! You know that song ' Hold on , .. ......'

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 17:44:55 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! Message:

I read Gina's post below, and what I wanted to say to her ties in with your question. Gina compares the meditation taught by Maharaji with the breathing techniques taught by other meditation teachers or to pregnant women. But I think there is a difference. Not because there is anything special about Knowledge, but in the expectations of the practicioner, and the occasional fulfilment of those expecations. When we received Knowledge in the old days, the talk was of cosmic experiences, better than acid trips. For me, experiencing anything less in meditation was failing. Now fortunately or unfortunately I had some cosmic experiences in meditation, and those convinced me, more than all the satsangs from Maharaji or mahatmas, that Knowledge was the real thing, and that consequently Maharaji was the real thing. That one piece of false logic kept me believing in Maharaji for the next 25 years. The point about this type of experience is that they are mind blowing. They don't fit in with our normal perceptions and perspectives of life. When we have such an experience, our intellects have to deal with it. I don't think it's impossible to deal with it rationally as Maharaji and the mahatmas used to claim, but it's just very difficult, and so we come up with some stupid interpretations. What I'm trying to say is that what many premies refer to as Knowledge is the cosmic experiences that it is possible to have when meditating. I don't blame anyone, including myself, for the irrational reactions to such an experience. I had a debate with Cosmic Traveller on LG a little while ago. He described some experiences that I believe had anyone had them, in the context that CT had them, they would be devoted to Maharaji. Unfortunately, Maharaji is making a very good living from his manipulation of people's interpretations of their private cosmic experiences. John.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:45:28 (EDT) From: Gina Email: all-yall@mindspring.com To: JHB Subject: Thank you, John, point well taken... Message:

I understand what you're saying and I'm glad you pointed this out. Yes, even though the possibility of connecting with our breath is right there inside of each of us, there IS a difference between the more spiritual experience of using mindful breathing to sit for peaceful meditation and the more practical utilitarian experience of using mindful breathing to get centered for the purpose of control during an activity or a situation...differences relative to the intent and expectations of each of us as individual practitioners. I've found this to be quite true in my own experience over the years. Yes, thank you for making this very good point. And for maharaji to have been manipulative with and proprietary about the private meditation experiences, occasionally cosmic or otherwise, of so many innocent seekers for so many years, IS very unfortunate. John, I think THAT's what is irrational. Thank you, Gina

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:12:24 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! Message:

I liked what you had to say. I actually had a Jimmy Hendrix experience myself in the Knowledge session. I was already primed on the contact-high thanks to all the premies I knew from work. Everytime a premie would come into the office, they would talk to me about the endless surendipity. Of course, they did not call it that, but rather the grace of the living lord. Well you know how that goes....but I would like to know how the whole thing works.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:47:06 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! Message:

I like Michael Dettmers' definition of Knowledge - complete devotion to Maharaji. Full stop. Anything else one could say ends in endless debate over the relative value of the meditation techniques as taught by M. If you 'practice Knowledge' or 'receive Knowledge' it is about devotion to M plain and simple. I too am curious how K is being portrayed these days. Apparently 'give it a fair chance' and 'stay in touch' have replaced 'constantly meditate and remember holy name' and 'never delay in attending satsang'.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 17:23:04 (EDT) From: silvia Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! Message:

When I was the Aspirant Contact aspirants had to fill up a form when they were ready to recieve K. answering many questions.One was if they ever saw mariachi in person, meaning, to what extent the person is interested it shows not in what the person feels privetly in their hearts, as individuals, but they are judged by the answers they give in the filled form. You must show devotion and that is something completly understood by the aspirants contacts and by any premies. K is about becoming taken 100% by the master. Falling in love with him, being a servant of HIS cause which is to recruit more people. The bs he explains we now know is secondary. Mariachi is just another cult leader and the 'experience' is auto-suggestion, self-hypnosis. Anybody can reach it if you want to. I have that feeling at times and I do not adore him anymore. I do not follow anybody or religion dogma. I feel specially happy sometimes and do not know the reason and do not care anymore to find an answer either. Life is to me today about finding my lost parts, parts I left behind, forgotten; because I was and acted as a cult member I forgot to enjoy and appreciate many other things in life. My life was filtered by my eyes of a devotee of BIgHead. Mahatmas and mariachi do not have super-powers as we used to think in the seventies after all. Does GOD needs forms? Super beings need forms? Is all BS! vThe form was send or taken by the aspirants to them to a meeting for people wanting to receive K usually happening during a program. One of the requisites to receive K is that a person has already seen mariachi in person. Why? That shows that the seed of interest and the possibility of future development of devotion has taken place. The experience of K is falling in love with an imaginary friend. Have you ever when you were young fall in 'love' with a Tv person, idol, music star, etc? Is similar to that. You feel like you are connected in your dreams with that person and that person doesn't even know who you are or that you exist but nevertheless, you felt 'something', a connection, some love. The most incredible feelings of love I felt them after leaving the cult and it was with a man. No, I am not atlking just about sex. Some incredible, profound feeling! My son's birth brought in my life a similar love, pure, clean. Mariachis like lard are slick and monopolize on the breath to make people associate their breath with him. That is why he always repeats it, in each program. People begin to associate mahariachi with their each second coming in breath. IS A TRICK! Nothing real happens. Is an illussion. If the breath is important in our minds and we became influenced by its importance is because we human KNOW that when the breath is gone you are dead. It seems complicated. I hope I had more time to talk about this, since I have thought about it alot, but I must go to work. maybe later I come back and write more. Devotion and becoming his slave, a cult memeber to help him make money to fulfill his wordly desires is what is about, and falling in love with an imaginary friend. I prefer LIVE love myself: More fulfilling. LOL

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 19:22:29 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: silvia Subject: Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Really, what is it! Message:

It's amazing how organized the whole propagation/propaganda thing perpetuates. I was falling all over myself in bliss and convinced my initiator that 2 weeks was more than enough time to be an aspirant and besides I was going to a program and wanted to get HolyBreath! I was thinking back to my pre-Knowledge life and trying to sort out where the hook started. And knowing more about what happens to people, once they make that connection, is a curiosity. Thanks for the feedback. The questionaire form is creepy news.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:58:02 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: What is KNOWLEDGE? Message:

Thanks for the following: I like Michael Dettmers' definition of Knowledge - complete devotion to Maharaji. Michael Dettmers hits the nail on the head, doesn't he. POUND! Scary question, isn't it?..............Anyone?

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 08:42:30 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: All Subject: this is so stupid.......... Message:

If 'what I am looking for is inside me', as if anyone else could possibly presume to know what I am looking for, then it has to be accessible to me at all times. By very definition it would have to be. Not only there if I lock myself away and poke my fingers in my eyes, stick them in my ears and shove my tongue up my nose. It has to be there constantly, whether I am checking out someone's groceries, doing housework or resting in the yard. And I sure as heck hadn't ought to have to listen to a 'master' all the time and follow him around to find it! What a crock of crap! And why is anything 'Kabir said' automatically assumed to be absolutely true, and quotes by any other source are suspect. To quote any other person is to evoke a response similar to, 'Right, like s/he really said that.' That last thing is hard to explain, I'm afraid. But I find it really irksome. If 'majaraji said' or 'kabir said' than that is it. There is no other discussion. And rawat has said some incredibly stupid and erroneous things! Sometimes I listen and look around and everybody is swallowing this crap! I am in shock at times. I want to ask them if they didn't hear what he had just said. And one of these days I will. Sooner, rather than later. For now, I just bring something to read while they are worshiping the TV idol they can't live without. As I said before, if rawat wants my husband, rawat is going to have to get my husband while I am sitting right beside him. At least until he locks himself away to 'practice'. I want to say, 'It's not where you have been told it is, my Love. You have been lied to and deceived.' All in time.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:34:52 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Timmi Subject: VERY STUPID Message:

I like There is no other discussion. And rawat has said some incredibly stupid and erroneous things! Sometimes I listen and look around and everybody is swallowing this crap! I am in shock at times. I want to ask them if they didn't hear what he had just said. He has said so, so many stupid stuff and yes, i used to hear it and couldn't grasp why THE MASTER was so very satupid. The premies? After programs we used to ask each other 'Do you remember what he said?' Because in reality we didn't remember much. We will wait to get the video to remember what he said; we were in a trance? Absent? Is such a piece of crap. The most best part and funny was when he put his foot in his mouth. Many of us thought that he did it in purposse, read, LILA, but no, I know now the guy is just a moronic being. Period. He contradicts himself so, so much. Is almost like he wants to make you confused so you don't now anymore what to think, what yuo believe: This is the main reason why so many people go crazy. Psychologicallt speaking he damages peoples' minds in a way that is simply shameful. I detest him! The father of my son is still a premie, more devotee than ever, more confused than ever. Your husband is a premie?

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:37:50 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Re: this is so stupid.......... Message:

You really rock. I'm beside myself impressed with you. Send this to your local paper. It's publishable. Amazing! You make it sound so pathetically simple. Why hasn't anyone figured that one out? Watch out, Maharaji, this one is on fire.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 14:53:20 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: this is so stupid.......... Message:

Thank you for your words! I'll consider it!

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:07:19 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Kabir refutes m. as master Message:

Timmi: 'Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu.' -- Kabir m. quotes Kabir, so Kabir must be scriptural gospel, right? Or, is it just selectively, huh? Because - according to Kabir's own definitions of a true saint or perfect master, then m. is NOT either one. But, that's already obvious to most knowledgeable people by now. m. also used to direct us to pray to him and offer worship to him: at initiation time, and then through arti and ritualized prayers many of us were taught to pray directly to him -- Not even to almighty God. Later, he admitted that he didn't even hear any of our prayers. He doesn't even remember or know who most premies are -- he said that, too. So, how's he gonna hear anyone's prayers and help them at the time of death - if he doesn't [and can't] hear your prayers now? Know ye not? Ye are ALL the Sons [and daughters] of God! Look what devotees made of Jesus' trip! Now, we see just the same thing -- constantly reinvented by so many people in so many religious cults. There's another Indian personality cult worship temple going up right now in my neighborhood, of all places. 'Course the bored-again fundumbmentalist Xians are outraged! Ironically, it's socially acceptable to have a cult where you worship a dead living incarnation of God, or alleged son-of-god, or Prophet -- but not a living one. haha Anyway, here's the link to their site: http://www.swaminarayan.org/ 'Philosophy: The Swaminarayan Sampradaya is a Bhakti Sampradaya which advocates God within the disciplines of Dharma. Lord Swaminarayan has propagated a philosophy where He says that God is Supreme, has a divine form, is the all doer and always present on earth. He simply states that jivas never merge or dissolve into God and neither are they part of God but always subservient to God. The Jiva, through absolute surrender and attachment toward the Guru, attains the realized state and becomes eligible to offer pure worship to God.' Key section: 'The Jiva, through absolute surrender and attachment toward the Guru, attains the realized state and becomes eligible to offer pure worship to God.' -- that absolute surrender and attachment toward the guru stuff is the danger zone. Check out their arti and darshan section, etc., too. Sound familiar? Lastly, the breath [spiritus] is the gateway between life and death. But no one needs submission to or belief in a guru [aka master] to experience breath -- or its power. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 22:29:57 (EDT) From: Sandy Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Re: Kabir refutes m. as master Message:

>Jesus was a carpenter, probably the best one around...and I am sure he saved not only souls but also some coin for His ministry, Paul was a tentmaker, Andrew and Peter were not just fishermen, they owned the equivilent of a small company, boats and all, Luke was a doctor, and so on. Nowhere in his directions did he say to his apostles (one who is sent) live off the people they turned on to the gospel, although insolicted love gifts were always welcome. The more I see this in black and white, the more I see between the lines. But we bought it for some reason and now we see things differently. My grandma used to say that education costs money, so if we learned something and paid the price, it was a valuable transaction. If there is suchabanana on the table, there is suchabanana on the table. (A paraphrase of Maharaji's answer to question about UFO's...) Peas and lentils, mit a little curry if you please, Sandy PS I am working a new job (love it, helping union members get coverage that is not being provided by companies and unions) and it takes alot of time, so I won't be around nearly as much...but I am with yas. Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:00:20 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Re: Kabir refutes m. as master Message:

Congradulations on your new job! I'm not sure what you had to say in that post though.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 00:19:29 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Sandy Subject: yep, + what kind of job? Message:

Yo, Sandy! good to hear you are enjoying working with da grass-roots humans; hope you got worker's comp, health plan, etc., too, for yourself. at 50+ years, that's very important for anybody. r u doing pension plans, or HMO stuff? what union, industry? yep, agree with what you said. also, Paul was employed by SPQR Senatus Populus que Romanus [for da Roman empire in the eastern provinces]. have been posting at LG, talking with da fervent pwks. [lil' admission] maybe came on a bit too strong at first for them to grok -- but they're just folks, too, after all. predicament is just like we wuz - not too long ago, actually. they virulently spammed any criticism of ya-know-whooie! deja vu [again] haha. hope your domestic juggling act, er tightrope, is like superfragilisticexpialidocious [whew - sp?], er, even keel now. stay in touch! Peace and lentils, mio fratello,

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 13:26:11 (EDT) From: Gina Email: all-yall@mindspring.com To: Timmi Subject: Re: this is so stupid.......... Message:

I believe 'it' IS inside of each of us, like Sir David says 'wherever inside is,' and it IS accessible at all times, but made harder to get to when there is a guru in the way. Like others have said so well here, to do meditation is a completely different experience from devotion to some guru with a self-serving philosophy and agenda. Simple, everyday meditation on the breath has become a practical part of daily life for many of us...no mantra, no guru, no special techniques, no sitting under a sheet locked away in another room. Simple, helpful, mindful breathing, remembering to breathe whenever we need to get focused. The same breathing we teach to unmedicated women in labor, to stay on top of contractions, to help prevent and/or control pain-induced or fear-based panic and hyperventilation. When I was involved in perinatal emergencies as a nurse I used mindful breathing to center myself when the adrenaline rush hit...very practical in that the adrenaline caused an intentional tremor in my hands which made it difficult to draw up the emergency meds in the syringes or start IV's if I didn't get centered and calm very quickly. Many people who deal with emergency situations use this simple trick...to slow their breathing and heartrates, get centered, focused on the work to be done. Simple, practical, helpful, everyday. Always there, no need to dial up the guru first. I do think sometimes we need good teachers for meditation or yoga, to get us started, just like we need good teachers to help us learn mathematics or music, but in my experience the best teachers share their knowledge and wisdom and certainly do not require that their students become their 'followers' for life! That's just outrageous. I do not mean to say we shouldn't respect and honor our good teachers, even if only in our hearts or in our memories, but we should be free to take whatever we learn from ANYONE and use it as practical applications in our own lives, no strings attached. The good teachers teach and encourage their students to thrive and grow on their own. They also encourage their students to learn from other sources, and they help make those sources available to them, nurturing and urging them forward on their journeys. As many people here have already pointed out, maharaji is not a good teacher. There are many extraordinary teachers out here in the world, some number of whom I've read right here on this forum, among all the 'ordinary' people all around us...who do not require selfless service and devotion from us in order to learn what they can teach us. No, maharaji is not a good teacher, clearly he is a self-serving, personal-agenda-driven middleman. Gina P.S. Timmi, I am Gina Boger-Haney in Atlanta Georgia, US. We 'met' briefly during the last few weeks of Forum V so I'm aware of your unique situation. I tried to email you but for some reason my email bounced, so I'll say this here. I am signing off from the forum now...mostly due to time considerations...actually it looks like Sunday mornings will be the only time I'll be able to look in now. I'm glad you posted this morning, because I wanted to say something to you before I go. I've put my email address above...if you want someone else in your friend support network, just to 'talk' to, feel welcome to email me. I work mostly at home now...I run a busy household full of musicians and teenagers...my husband, my sons, all their bands practice here in our studio...seems like almost all of my adult life I've been the 'housemother' in a musicians' house! I also run the office here for a company my husband has now, so I check email daily. Occasionally there is a response delay in my email correspondence just because the computer is in the studio and there's so much going on, and the business email, sales and tech support, have to be taken care of first. But I am here. Bye, everyone, go well. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, compassion, honesty and amazing insights. With respect and love, Gina

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 15:59:41 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Gina Subject: Another extraordinary post--Take Care! Message:

You have a lot to teach yourself. Thanks for that part on centering oneself in order to handle life saving situations. The irony is beautiful. Of course, we know, instinctively, what the power of breath is about. Maharaji is and always was a bad teacher for a plethora of painfully obvious reasons. Asshole should retire.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:22:05 (EDT) From: ulf Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Re: this is so stupid.......... Message:

offcourse it is crazy But what is it that makes human beings to eat a belive system like that ? You must understand , that before you are in a place where you really eat all the bullshit , there is many months of `` fighting doubts,, or as we used to say : calm your mind ,, and that is to let completly go of your own commen sense . Day after day, Endless satsangs , hour after hour , someday you dont know what is rigth or wrong. then you are ready for Knowlegde. You stop beliving in your own judgement. Scary , yes indeed Best Ulf

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 09:10:54 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Timmi Subject: Re: this is so stupid.......... Message:

Maharaji has the classic Hindu exaggeration and oversimplification, not to mention complete untruth. If a person is looking for an experience from meditation then it is to be found inside (wherever inside is). However, a meditational experience doesn't always come and to base one's life on meditational experiences which come and go like the weather is a passport to disaster. A meditational experience is just one thing. There's many other things which people need and often need far greater and far more urgently. Following Maharaji can lead people to believe that everything they want and need in life is to be found from a meditational experience. This just isn't true and if you look at the premies, it clearly is not borne out in their experience. There's nothing wrong with someone practising meditation if they want to. It is a harmless activity. Following Maharaji's philosophy is a different matter and since he never meditates himself, his directions and philosophy regarding meditation are extremely dangerous for people to sincerely follow.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:57:06 (EDT) From: Carl Email: None To: David Subject: But M doesn't NEED to meditate . . . Message:

He has already 'realized' it. He is the Incarnation of the Godhead, completely, absolutely at one with the Ultimate Total Reality of Eternal Existence. He is the LORD incarnate, don't you know. What need of he to 'meditate' upon God. He IS that for which all beings yearn. The Generator, Operator and Destroyer. His every action and gesture is unutterably exquisite and perfect, in grace, intention and result. Meditate? For M? How superfluous. Quaint, but unnecessary for him, er, Him.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 11:30:33 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Carl Subject: Re: But M doesn't NEED to meditate . . . Message:

It makes me want to hurl........

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 17:19:24 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Timmi, have you seen this... Message:

[ Australian Website? ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 14:51:56 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Timmi, have you seen this... Message:

No, I hadn't, but I have now and I thank you for sending it on to me. This stuff makes me more ill everytime I read it, but it is all information I need. Thank you. And thanks everybody who wrote in this thread. I can't tell you how helpful you are to me in this struggle for my marriage and life.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 16:25:09 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Re: You're welcome Message:

It's a pleasure to help you. Your investment in your marriage is real.. Unfortunately, the Premies have an investment with a conman. He's a figment of their imagination. They transfer the whole inner experience to him. They give Maha credit for their own experience. Fuckin cruel hoax. Look at the apparent 'investment' these people have to lose.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 05:18:24 (EDT) From: Tomkat Email: None To: All Subject: Catweasel EXPOSED... Message:

Click here to see the real Catweasel/Victoria Bitter

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 10:08:25 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Tomkat Subject: Re: Catweasel EXPOSED... Message:

And I want to know that you have all been very busy! She's got a face like ...well a cats bum!

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 13:33:15 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: how apropos -- haha. cute! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 21:57:46 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: OK, it's not earthshaking but... Message:

I did get a reply from Rich Read of the Oregonian who gave me permission to share his response to the email I sent him entitled If you liked Cheatananda, you'll Love Maharaji: Gerry- Thanks so much for your comments on the series. It's good to get some balance; I expect our Letters to the Editor will be running various missives from disciples, who appear to be livid. I'll check out that site you suggest. Best, -Rich Read Like I said, no big deal here, but the whole point is to steer as many journalists as possible towards our issue. We have to make it short, interesting, and easy for the reporter. Another point is that there should be a local tie in of some sort. Rich wrote about Cheatananda because Cheatananda lives in Portland. It would be effective to contact media in any city where Rawat goes trolling for fresh meat. Also if you are in the locale were an 'event' is being held, a little guerilla marketing, leaflets, bulletin board pin ups, etc. would be effect. Another good tactic would be to stand outside the hall where the Speaker is droning on and on and hold a sign. Call the media, of course. Now maybe they won't give a shit, but sometimes they're desperate for fresh stories, and we all know sex sells...

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:25:24 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: OK, it's not earthshaking but... Message:

Good start! I agree with the media alert suggestion. That is the achilles heel? And you are Paris, non? It is silly and unbelievably naive to think that journalists, news reporters, television hosts, etc. will not find a story here. And steering the media to the other cyber-exposing cult stuff only closes the deal, my friends. The BigHead will not hold up to media scrutiny. I'm sure the France Combat incident ruffled his feathers. WE KNOW WHERE IT HURTS! I don't feel sorry enough for Maha to prevent harmful media exposure. He can retire in luxury. I feel sorrier for the young god-idealistic above average intelligent people who forfeited their family, friends, potential relationships, business opportunities, and every thing else that constitues a normal everyday life for a fuckin LIE. How much is enough? Exactly? The harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 12:25:33 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: gerry Subject: Send media or newcomers here Message:

***Best of Forum*** I have heard amazing responses from people reading these posts. It takes time to understand what goes on on the forum but the BOF provides a valuable 'Cliff's Notes' resource of archived information.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:49:22 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: gerry Subject: heard from Rich, too Message:

I emailed him, too, and we have exchanged several letters since. I also urged him to be careful - streetwise for awhile. He was very nice in his letters. P + L,

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:13:22 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: OK, it's not earthshaking but... Message:

Sex sells. Yeah if only we could capture a pic when he is getting a string of red plastic balls .... oh dear me excuse me. I'm channeling Red Butler!! He don't come round these parts anymore. Which is surprising considering he don't need real big rooms anymore and it's downrite cheap to convene this time of year in Phoenix. Sigh, I miss out on all the fun. But your suggestions will be listened to. Already have been if I read the Malibu Mole post correctly. It stirred up at least one troll to no end.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:45:42 (EDT) From: Irene Email: None To: All Subject: The Spanish Foro Still OPEN Message:

here is the link: http://www.ex-premie.org/spanish/foro/foro.cgi Daaa. Copy, paste. Too lazy to link it myself. hahahhaha

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 15:16:30 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Don't worry about message at top Message:

This forum is paid for although the bandwidth is pretty high and a few people have offered to help me pay for it. If you want to give something, I can accept PayPal payments although not at the email address on this post. So if you want to help, please email me on the above address and I'll give you my PayPal email address and details of the account.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:02:33 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Dave Subject: Page is looking better Dave Message:

Looks like you've done a little techy aesthetics to the page.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:23:36 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Dave Subject: check email [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 12:33:50 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: All Subject: suggestion to premies on how to give to maharaji.. Message:

Just a suggestion for any premie lurkers who might be having some 'doubts' about the 'purity of the master' after reading about some of his past and present escapades on the 'X-side' of things... Since maharaji's stated purpose for over 3 decades now has been to 'spread this knowledge' to everyland..(and tell them our Lord is here?....well, maybe just tell them our 'speaker' is here...OK. that sounds beter...), why not help in a REAL way, for a change? A few suggestions: 1-STOP giving maharaji any money right now. Propagation does not need more money to go on. MAHARAJI needs more money to go on. Thousands of videos are sitting in premies closets that can be used to show to possible aspirants. Invite them to your house..it's much more real than a hall or hotel. Also, FREE M-TV is now available. Also, the 'Mahatma Mac' (where you can realize your immortality from the 4 techniques on a DVD)is or soon will be available ... 2-Talk real with the potential aspirants.(and question why m doesn't want you to) Let them get to know you and quit hiding behind the David Smith school of propagation which says 'why listen to me play a lousy violin, when you can listen to a 'master of the violin' play it perfectly for you.. Tell them your doubts...what you dislike about the guru and ev... Tell them how much you really experience in meditation. Explain why you keep going to endless videos every week which say the same inane things...(are you really learning anything new, or is it a form of 'self hypnosis'?) Tell them if knowledge and devotion to m really makes you so incredibly happy. Tell them about devotion, or gratitude to the master. Tell them that you never have a chance to ask your master any real questions. Tell them to check out the masters 'x-rated' secret life and see if it looks like the life of a man who is honest, peaceful and happy. 3-Explain to them why you need to go all over the globe to follow the speaker, if the truth he showed you is within. 4-Be their friend, get to know them. That will do far more good than conniving them into watching endless trite videos. 5-Be honest with them. Explain why maharaji is presented as a 'speaker' or 'master', who is really just a nice guy, but in reality, you worship him in faraway places like India or Amaroo, where you line up to kiss his feet and sing arti to him. Tell them that you are hiding this fact from them BEFORE they get into the aspirant process. 6-Tell them that maharaji promises immortality and makes vague references to being krishna, while presenting himself as a humble servant. 7-Let them know how he lives, while never working for a living. Where did all that money come from? 8-Ask maharaji to be honest and explain why his private life is a disaster, while he puts on a 'warm, fuzzy ,blissful' stage act? Ask maharaji if HE practices the 4 techniques for an hour minimum every day. If not, why not? Hmmm..this list is getting long...better end it soon, because it could go on endlessly... Basically, how about this: If knowledge is so great, let it sell itself. Stop giving money to the guru, be a real human being, be with people, tell them about knowledge. Ask them why they DON'T want to get into it. Look honestly at your own doubts and experiences with practicing.(not festival experiences). Most of all, ask yourself why you're still doing it. And why you can't question m. And why he hides so much. And why does this teacher never really get his students to actually learn anything? Why haven't YOU mastered it yet, after possibly 30 years of trying? Has HE mastered it? What would that mean? How could you measure it? Oh well, a few obeservations to chew on while you're waiting for the next program to be announced...

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 22:36:24 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: la-ex Subject: love the third one Message:

3-Explain to them why you need to go all over the globe to follow the speaker, if the truth he showed you is within. I've come to see those days as any religious revivalist glom together to ilk out some remnants of a group high.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:31:10 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Re: GREAT suggestions to premies Message:

I didn't know that premies weren't speaking about knowledge or giving satsang until I read the pages. How did that all happen? M one day told premies to stop giving satsang? How did they react to that at the time?

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 18:01:57 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: GREAT suggestions to premies Message:

Deborah, I remember this clearly in a program in Brighton, UK. Satsang had stopped for a while (I can't remember how long) and Maharaji did a Q&A session. Someone asked about propagation, and Maharaji replied that spreading knowledge was his job, and not ours. I remember feeling so relieved that I didn't have to tell anyone about M or K again (and only did once in the next 18 or so years before I became an ex!). Someone else asked him about there being no magazines, cassettes, videos or photos for sale, and Maharaji replied 'And you're still here!' It seems clear to me now that there were legal battles behind the scenes about ownership of all these products. John.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 18:29:10 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: you didn't know?? Message:

As you may know I wasn't reading much F5 during the days when you began posting, so, I don't know much about you so, I have a question by reading your post above: When did you left? The 'talking ban' happened long, long a go. Just curious.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:10:31 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: you didn't know?? Message:

No Silvia, not until I read a comment in one of the posts. Around 1984/85 Maha BigHead conducted an International Instructors Conference. I attended as administration staff. It was 3 days long I think and everyone including M & M & M. I listened in some of the BigHead's lectures where he was teaching them 'wordly' skills and how to bed business people to get what you want, etc. But I never heard him announce the GAG Order. About a year later, I attended a LosAngeles program with my then current boyfriend who was not impressed. I thought he was as dense as the anti-christ at the time for not getting it! Another year later (86/87) I attended a program in SanFrancisco. I was living in Marin County at the time and heard M was coming to town. I brought 2 friends to this 'new program'. I hadn't heard of premies or heard anything about the BigHead during that time. That was the last time I ever saw the BigHead ;}

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:43:27 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: ROFL hahahahahaha Message:

now you 'killed me'! BigHead did it! ROFL, again... I thought he was as dense as the anti-christ at the time for not getting it! I took a boyfriend from Argentina to a Miami program! He wanted to kill me...hahhahaha Oh, those charms I used to have... Well, I still do. I'm just modest, hide them now if not I cannot have girl friends, the boyfriends want to know more...lol That is what happen when one is born beautiful... auughhhh M&M&M? please, tell me. :)

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:44:43 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: M & M & M Message:

Oh that was Maha, Marolyn, and Monica or is it Monica, Marolyn, & Maha. Maybe it's Marolyn, Monica, and Maha. But it could be......

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 02:30:36 (EDT) From: sivan Email: sivan28@yahoo.com To: Deborah Subject: Re: you didn't know?? Message:

No Silvia, not until I read a comment in one of the posts. Around 1984/85 Maha BigHead conducted an International Instructors Conference. I attended as administration staff. It was 3 days long I think and everyone including M & M & M. I listened in some of the BigHead's lectures where he was teaching them 'wordly' skills and how to bed business people to get what you want, etc. But I never heard him announce the GAG Order. About a year later, I attended a LosAngeles program with my then current boyfriend who was not impressed. I thought he was as dense as the anti-christ at the time for not getting it! Another year later (86/87) I attended a program in SanFrancisco. I was living in Marin County at the time and heard M was coming to town. I brought 2 friends to this 'new program'. I hadn't heard of premies or heard anything about the BigHead during that time. That was the last time I ever saw the BigHead ;} --- I wonder what makes some people 'get it'(like I thought I did) and others not 'get it' or not want to understand it? Was it the generation/cultural influence, a lack of insight, too much trust.....I dont know. It always made so much sense- but not to many other people I met over the last 20 years. Guess they were more insightful or smart.. or something....who knows...any ideas?

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:40:30 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: sivan Subject: Re: you didn't know?? Message:

Hi Silvin, good thought provoking questions. I just posted a What is Knowledge? thread. I'd be interested in knowing what different people have to say. Maha never spoke about Knowledge. The Mahatmas did that! OH Perhaps in smaller circles he spoke at Knowledge, but not for the group en masse. My connection started with premies. I got a real contact-high from being around them and alas, they led me to the Maha trough. I worked for a premie (ashram dude) and lots of premies would drop by. There was also a premie business that sold airline tickets and housing stuff. I'd go by there every day and eventually I fell into the fold. Their was a real kinetic energy I remember that much. I'd like to hear what you have to say about Knowledge. Thanks for the post.

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 16:52:58 (EDT) From: me again Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Typo: Read 'Hi Sivan' Message:

sorry

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 03:45:04 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: sivan Subject: Re: you didn't know?? Message:

No, some people still think about what they are listening, others, us, fell in a trance and became absent minded.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:35:02 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: GREAT suggestions to premies Message:

Yes, he told premies they couldn't give satsang any more, not long after I left in 1984 I believe. Unbelievable, isn't it? Biggest mistake he could have made, with so many intelligent people who could have really related to new people in different ways. How have the current premies hung in there for so long without even the joys of premie satsang?

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:45:11 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: GREAT suggestions to premies Message:

Hi Disculta, Happy Saturday. Did a lot of premies start leaving around '84? That's very close to my premie-knowledge withdrawl. I knew a couple premie instructors who split but I don't think they knew the impact of the deception. They kept their comments to the irrelevance of Knowledge. To date, approx. how many of the early 80's crowd have remained?

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:07:47 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: GREAT suggestions to premies Message:

Yes, lots of people were leaving around the time I left. There was a tremendous birth of interest in Miami in all kinds of other groups and paths. I think many premies 'left' without really leaving or evaluating their experiences as premies, and later 'went back' because they still contained the 'I am a premie' meme. Since I did it a bit differently and rather visibly (it's in my journey), once I was out I was more or less out. So I don't know much about the cult since then except what I read here. I even got mostly new friends, although one of my best friends remained an instructor for a while, then left, and I heard a lot of terrible stuff from him about how abusive MJ was being, which helped me in times of missing the cult. love Katie Darling

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 20:25:44 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: GREAT suggestions to premies Message:

Thanks. I'd love to know what happened to some of that Miami gang. I had a lot of great times, albeit psychologically abducted by a cult leader, with some of these people. I like the part about the 'I am still a premie meme'. I'm reading a few articles I downloaded re: Susan Blackwell's Theory. Interesting stuff?

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 14:41:01 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Knowledge = happiness myth Message:

If m.'s so-called knowledge makes one happy, then why did some city coordinators [er, contactpersons] (and a large number of other premies) feel it necessary to start taking daily ANTI-DEPRESSANTS -- AFTER they had been practicing knowledge and surrendering their minds and lives to miragey for a number of years? If knowledge makes one happy and content, then why did m. himself become an alcohol abuser and drug user as a teenager? Especially since he was also mandating strict rules against drugs and alcohol in the ashrams, accepting awards for supposedly getting hippies off drugs, and spouting that drugs and alcohol were an impediment on the spiritual journey? On the use of drugs and alcohol: 'Well, the only thing I can tell you is that, look, you already have a Knowledge that is much more superior than that. It is like this: a person is in one city and he is telling everybody, 'Oh, I want to go to another city as soon as possible.' And he has a falcon jet which is A-OK. It runs; it's perfect. But all he does is take his suitcase and start walking. And that's not the quickest way. It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji that's hypocrisy -- s.o.p. for miragey. like, he should just say: 'DO as I SAY; DON'T do as I DO!' Peace and lentils,

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