Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Jul 23, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Bjørn E. -:- The right to redressing myself. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:55:49 (EDT)
__ Janet Schwartz -:- Re: The right to redressing myself. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 22:26:25 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Janet -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 21:12:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E. -:- You don't know what you are talking about. Gerry -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 03:16:42 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E -:- Thanks Janet -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 07:46:32 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- human rights and medication -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:41:44 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E. -:- If 'Absence of empathy is evil' - -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:15:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- forgive -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:37:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Thanks Abi -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:09:26 (EDT)
__ mama -:- Re: The right to redressing myself. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:28:27 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Go see your therapist, Bjorn -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:19:57 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Re: The right to redressing myself. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:37 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Well put :} [nt] -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:30:53 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E. -:- To Bill etc. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 03:03:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- etc. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:06:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: etc. -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 07:25:09 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: I had no idea! -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:49:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Bjorn, are you still here? [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 06:19:52 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Nollidge cures Bjorn !!! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:20:32 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- And a touch of nostalgia before you go... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:45:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: And a touch of nostalgia before you go... -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:41:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E. -:- You are a liar, and you know it Gerry -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:06:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Tell me where the lie is, bim -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:15:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn A -:- Re: Tell me where the lie is, bim -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:20:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Bjorn, we've been here before. -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 06:00:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- So what, but please leave me alone. -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 07:45:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- All you ask is peace. -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:07:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Bjorn, with the best will in the world... -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:55:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Just a comment Nigel -:- Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 18:27:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Fire away Bim Doubtfire -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:40:19 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- 'we had to surrender to his program' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:12:19 (EDT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Does THIS sound familiar? -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:21:47 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: 'we had to surrender to his program' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:51 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- like day job view, er deja vu [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:15:00 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:27:35 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind' -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:43:16 (EDT)

PatC -:- Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:23 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- Yes, why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 03:26:56 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- A wonderful post JohnT (NT) -:- Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:19:22 (EDT)
__ Carlos -:- It was thru EPO I found Lifes Great, -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:54:26 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:19:08 (EDT)
__ CW -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:57:41 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- I don't agree, Pussy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:20:09 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- LG:pwks' denial;flamed me 4 discussing m-LOL [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:45:32 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:04:03 (EDT)
__ __ Carlos -:- RR, David isn't the only premie willing to -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:33:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- You are correct Carlos -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:57:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Members of both the premie & ex hate -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:17:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I do my best to ignore ignoramuses -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:19:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I think it is (as most fools who use it -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:43:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- I disagree, Carlos -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:04:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I meant that sharing my experiance in -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:23:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: I disagree, Carlos - me too -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:21:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Pat, you can contribute on LG without -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:27:59 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- You answered your own question -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:31:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Yes of course -:- you do Pat, like that special person -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 01:57:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ CAT! -:- David Whitla [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 08:54:01 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Wrong crux -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:26:34 (EDT)
__ SF -:- It's like any newsgroup -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:56 (EDT)
__ __ ps from SF (selene) -:- the here that I meant -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:01:56 (EDT)
__ Gray Davis -:- It's the cheese (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:00:08 (EDT)

AJW -:- Hey Dave. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:24:23 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- If I may be more forthcoming...:) -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:18:20 (EDT)
__ __ Ian Dury -:- Hey Nigel -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:41:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Ian Dury? I thought you were dead.. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:51:00 (EDT)
__ Francesca :) -:- Hey Dave. I third that. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:52:53 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Re: Hey Dave - I second that -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:42:48 (EDT)

wolfie -:- a little entertainment -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:19 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Wolfie, what was the rawat kids video like? [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:47:22 (EDT)

crabby Horse }( -:- Mr. D. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:01:56 (EDT)
__ Mr D -:- Re: Mr. D. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:59:32 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Mr. D. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:08:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Crabby Horse }( -:- yah -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:05:41 (EDT)

David Andersen -:- See you guys later.... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:53:44 (EDT)
__ bill -:- The story of David A's late 70's music tape -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:56:01 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: See you guys later.... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:51:24 (EDT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Nice knowing you.Some A's+Q's -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:41 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- My answers to similar questions -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:13:43 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- A question for either JS or DA -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- My psychoanalysis of D.A. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:14:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: My psychoanalysis of D.A. -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:43:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ JS -:- Yes Way, that's DA -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:36:16 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Bye to D.A. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:52 (EDT)

Sandy -:- visual health -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 02:20:32 (EDT)
__ Carlos -:- Are you the Sandy who was in the ashram -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:21:46 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Who else doesn't like this background colour??? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:50:56 (EDT)
__ __ Carl -:- Custard! Easy on eye, & for continuity w/ EPO [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:29 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:39:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- A word from a web expert -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- great link for web designers -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:24:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- Yes, Pat, and note also... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:16:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best - YES! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I thought you and I were not going to post anymore -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:34:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- I never said that, but you did (several times) -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:06:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:46:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHBB) -:- Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB) -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:03:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, I say it at least once a week -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:46:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Well if San Fran is cool and grey... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:07:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Latvian Date -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 07:47:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Herb Caen, the deceased bard -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Custard Custard ! Give us Custard!! nt -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:42:08 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Minty green - seriously -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Admin Assistant -:- Re: Minty green - seriously -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: Minty green - seriously -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:25:01 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Who else doesn't like this background colour? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:06:40 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Bring back the custard! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:13:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Daisy -:- Yes, make View All the Default. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:33:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Collapse, edit, search YES [nt] -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:37:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cybercop DI 2 -:- check this out Cat and LG crew -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:42:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ MrT -:- the crew flounders, heh! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:49:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Is this wheat ?- it looks like mushroom from here -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:46:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dave -:- Re: Bring back the custard! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:42:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Black on gray? -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:26:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- And since you asked -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:29:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ok, well maybe try this... -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:18:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Custard my Arse ! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:52:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David -:- Lightened it now -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:57:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- EN -Lightened it now -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:24:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Re: Lightened it now -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:31:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I don't get blue writing -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:34:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- Neither do I -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:45:19 (EDT)

gerry -:- Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:52:39 (EDT)
__ sivan -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:18:58 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 01:35:28 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:22:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:23:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:00:12 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- mental ensalada, yes! -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:20:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Addicted to Bliss -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:15:06 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:55:49 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The right to redressing myself.
Message:
A lot of lies have been posted about me at FV. I could sue or report it to the police if I wanted.
In responses to my post to Abi, I have written what I think is something Abi should consider. I have also told a story, which is true, how I have been working pretty hard to increase the rights of victims of criminal cases. It seems like I have succeeded and my hope is that my document in the hearing case in the parliament will even place the Human rights of victims at another level in my country. The document is yet not published but it will be so within mid august. If nobody believes me I can fax personal letters from the Prime minister, the Justice minister and the leaders of political parties in my country.

I have considered suing some people, I even have their name and address, but I have chosen not to yet.

It is true that I suffered severely from Posttraumatic Stress disorder; the major reasons for that was being a victim of serious violence, and seeing the offender walk without punishment. Another major thing is that I was sexually abused as a child. To me it was pretty traumatic not only to get accusations that I am a paedophile but also see that my full name is outed.

I have also been accused of being really unintelligent and that might be the case. (Even posting at an ex-premie forum is en evidence, I will agree to that.) However I have been doing pretty well. By most measures I am pretty rich. I own 2 companies, (by now pretty worthless due to my illness) I also own 7 flats and one beautiful cottage in the mountain; Bjørnebu. (which even is on the Internet as I rent it out when I am not using it myself) I have even been awarded with a price for being a talented inventor. I also have a silver medal in the national championship of sailing as a junior. I have a lovely wife who I have been married to for 25 years. I have also 2 great daughters; one is studying social economics and the other is extremely successful in her career. I love my family, and it appears that they love me.
So even how unintelligent I a must be, I have done pretty well.

Katie, has questioned if the name outed is really my name. If you have any doubts of that, ask Michael Dettmer, Katie Darling or Joy, who I happened to know in Denver when I stayed there, or ask poster Jolly (Kaj Bjørkqiust) who I spent a holiday with in Finland when I visited the person who became my wife. And if you don’t believe my story, ask my therapist.

I have been accused of being excusing Jagdeo behaviour. I must say that is a lie. However, being myself a victim of sexual abuse, this was an important issue for me. I wanted to find the truth about the subject. Therefore I posted. My first post was about that Mr Jagdeo should have been in jail. Many times Jagdeo has been accused of raping kids at ex-premie forums, however, to my knowledge, such evidence doesn’t exist. I would also stress that I am able to see that according to international Human Rights no one is guilty of a crime until judged. Statements saying someone is guilty are against international laws of Human Rights. I am also able to see that people with such tendencies, are ill, and should get medication.

Every time I have been banned from ex-premie Forums, the reason have been that I have stated that as far as I know, nobody have been raped. At the ex-premie forums to say anything like that is definitely politically incorrect.

One of the reasons I started posting was a post from a person called Marianne. It gave me the creeps that any person could state that it warmed her heart, to read about the Jagdeo case in one of Sir Daves links. It made me sick. At one time I was banned, I wrote to Jim and told him this story why I was concerned about the Jagdeo case. Without asking me, he posted my mail at FV. (I think that is illegal) When Marianne read about this, she freaked out, and being aware that I was banned, she called me a liar, and stated that everyone who knew her knew she would never write something like that. However. :This is what she indeed posted when Sir Dave gave the links to the Jagdeo story:
Date: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 20:22:38 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave, my hero!
Message:
Hi Sir Dave! Thanks for that post. It warmed my heart! Marianne

I have been accused of being obsessed by the Jagdeo case. That is not true. I have been posting about almost everything, under my own name, and under other aliases. Every time under an alias, whatever I wrote about, some person; Gerry, Hal and Katie outed me due to my mistakes in the English language. When I was outed and met with false accusations, I changed my alias. I even told the FA why I changed aliases. If a hypocrite is someone accusing another person of something they themselves are doing, it seems to me that the nature of an ex-premie is to be a hypocrite and to lie.

I most probably will not post here anymore.

If anyone has more stones to throw, I would suggest they should ask themselves a question; “what have I done for the victims?”. At least I can swear on the Bible or whatever, that I have tried to do something, at least for the victims in my country. And if any of the victims should really for once do anything to really chase Jagdeo, I am willing to offer a contribution of 100 bucks.

Last I would say, I have been ill and I was diagnosed to suffer from Posttraumatic stress disorder. I wrote a piece about a very efficient treatment, called Neuro feedback. This is a method that actually is a training which goal is to make the two parts of the brain to function like they are supposed to. The strange thing, the cure has remarkable similarities to Knowledge. In my training with this, I got a bit better, but strangely enough, what cured me, was to go to Nottingham. To meet once more with M, changed my life again. Some of the tests / training shows the level of your state of being from 1 – 10. - a 10 is really bad, 1 is excellent. Before I went to Nottingham, my average level was about a 6. After Nottingham I reached 1.

I could post some more posts, as I think there are something’s that should be addressed. I am capable of writing some pretty nasty stuff, but it is not my intention to hurt anyone.

Whatever you do, it is your choice. I find it ridiculous to discuss K & M in the first place.

Bjørn E.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 22:26:25 (EDT)
From: Janet Schwartz
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: Re: The right to redressing myself.
Message:
Bjørn:
This is the first time I have ever gotten an opportunity to hear you out in your own words, calm , composed, reasonable and honest. My esteem for you as a person has increased greatly after having had this chance.
I had hoped to begin this new forum in a better form and tone than the last one. was apalled at the bullying and lowlife consciousness that pervaded that arena. I don't intend to sink to that level again, whether by peer pressure or insecurity or tempatation.

It would appear that common consideration is not as common as the civil person would hope for. By no means let that reality move you from your personal standards of truthfulness and clarity and honesty.

I understand you far better, having now read your presentation above. Unlike your detractors, I do not see anything in what you state as offensive or perverse. All that you have sppoken is verifiable elsewhere as valid human knowledge, and is not representative of what you have been accused of displaying on any of these forum posting boards.

Your feelings for that child were utterly normal and are in the literature the world over. Children can be extremely seductive, intentionally or not, and are whole and sexual beings from birth, regardless of what our hypocritical society would like to believe and pretend. I do not condone the rape or sexualizing of a child by any means. But I am not blind to the real presence of children's awareness of their sexuality from a very young age. I have watched 2 year olds--female children-- climb into the laps of grown men and knowingly play to them in charm and guile and sweetness, enjoying their effect on the man and using it to cajole him into granting them some favor they had discovered they could readily achieve by doing so. I have conversed with the men afterwards and frankly discussed what they felt and experienced and realized, and they were candid about how much it shocked them that a little girl that young knew what she had about her and had figured out how to use it to get her way already.
This does not exonerate pedophiles or acts of sexuality on any child. Jon Benet Ramsey is dead, for her precociousness in knowing (being coached in?) how to manipulate her innate sexuality, and Drew Barrymore was a cocktail party alcoholic by the age of seven, from being trained and coached and encouraged to indulge her talents from birth, being born inside of one of the venerated acting, dramatic families of hollywood, and being surrounded by her parents friends, agents, producers and other star level, attention getting types, and the parties, the familiars, the posing, the entire environment. neither she nor JonBenet were allowed to hve an innocent, normal childhood.

But it does go to indicate that children are sexual beings, and indeed, all humans are, and you or any boy at 13, in the throes of puberty and adolescing, a boy could very well feel such things as you so candidly relate that you yourself did. It is not indicative of sickness. It is understandable and not worthy of the uproar others have met it with here.
Your experience at Nottingham is also completely logical. In regards to your PTSD and the experiences which induced it in your life, It makes sense that seeing Maharaji would be an experience that could take your stress levels down to a 1.
a human being can experience a reduction of stress to zero at such an event. That doesn't mean they necessarily have to then worship or serve the speaker, or attribute superhuman powers to them, or create a castle of beliefs surrounding themselves and the other person for the rest of their lives, either.
So I don't see your going to the program in the same light as others here ridicule it as.

I very much welcome this chance to see you as you truly are, and I thank you for speaking in your own behalf this way. I make patient allowances for language difficulties when there is a possibility the speaker is not absolutely fluent with english, and may need clarification and help to arrive at exactly what they mean to convey. If they sem to say outrageous things, it bears exploring to discover if they actually meant what their words came out seeming to declare.
On this, I give you the benefit of the doubt. Your points seem calm and clear to me, and I thank you for taking the time to state yourself yet again, this time, perhaps,the best.
I now feel like I have met you as you wanted to be understood.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 21:12:46 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Janet Schwartz
Subject: Janet
Message:
You don't know what you are talking about.

(rest of fist-shaking post deleted by gerry for his own sanity)

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 03:16:42 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You don't know what you are talking about. Gerry
Message:
Many months ago, I told my theraphist about what happened to me here and your claim that when feelings that occur in the life of a juvenile, will follow that person for the rest of his life. Frankly she got quite upset, and actually said such confused feelings at a young age are absolutely normal. I also told her the story about the seual abuse that happened to me, when I was a kid, and she said that this is not regarded as an act of an paedophile, since my relative was only about 15 and I was about 10.
I think you should get your facts straight before you accuse someone.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 07:46:32 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Janet Schwartz
Subject: Thanks Janet
Message:
I wish you the best in life

Bjørn E

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:41:44 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: human rights and medication
Message:
Dear B,
what was that about people violating International Human Rights by saying that someone is guilty of a crime? Also, what was that about people needing medication if they speak out about a crime which has happened to them???

Jagdeo is guilty. Sue me, but save the medication.

Bye - no more dialogue with you on this.

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:15:40 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E.
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: If 'Absence of empathy is evil' -
Message:
is a true statement, like it is stated in the Nürnberg process against nazis, I know some evil people.
In my book, the feeling of empathy, feeling compassion and understanding for other human beings, wheather they are victims or ill, is empathy.

If you want to misunderstand me, Abi, I can't help. If you notice in normal publications, they never write 'so and so is guilty'. Someone might say, 'I think so and so is guilty'. Statements like 'He is guilty' is a violation of international laws of Human Rights.
In my post, I stated: 'I am also able to see that people with such tendencies, are ill, and should get medication' I don't refer to people who state that so and so is guilty, I refer to people who have a sexual desire towards children'

I hope there will be no more dialogue on this.

Bjørn E.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 08:37:27 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: forgive
Message:
Let's just forgive each other for misunderstandings and move on.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:09:26 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Thanks Abi
Message:
I forgive gladly, but I don't think there is anything you have done to me worth mentioning. A lot of what has happened has been misunderstandings.
The only problem I have towards myself, is to forgive myself for wasting so much time at the EPO.

I will move on, and I wish you the best.

Bjørn E.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:28:27 (EDT)
From: mama
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: Re: The right to redressing myself.
Message:
Men you have problems. I feel like mine are very little compared to yours. Thanks for posting.

BTW: Doesn't your guru help you? Why do you have to come here?

Sue yourself: You are as as always your worst enemy.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:19:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: Go see your therapist, Bjorn
Message:
Once again you have made a post that is totally at odds with reality. You have misrepresented me and have posted a false impression of one of my previous posts. Bjorn, you need psychiatric help. Get it. Take care of yourself instead of focusing on Abi and Jagdeo. You need to tend to your own mental impairments.

You are obsessed with Abi and Jagdeo. Start being obsessed with your own well being for a change.

I have the professional capability to do what is necessary to defend my reputation.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:19:37 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: Re: The right to redressing myself.
Message:
Bjorn,
If you do post again, a good rule of thumb is to not post it immediately but go do something and come back and look to see if
all the sentences are really worth it.
Take out all sentences that would bother others and serve no purpose.
An easy one would be to NOT say to a person who says she WAS abused, and your maharaji met with her dad and is investigating Jagdeo, or at least says his staff will, Dont say to her 'I see no evidence that
Jagdeo abused someone.'

Another issue would be that you have indeed told this story on numerous occasions, and I do sympathize with your dreadful
experience, try to not read Abi's posts, and try to not use them to
upset her,
How would you like it if I was to say 'I see no evidence that someone
attacked you'?
You would be insulted for starters right?
And you ARE a guy, and a woman's sensibilities ARE different.
Dont fergit, you would treat ABI more carefully and say different things if she was YOUR daughter.
I know you would, I would also.
Go easier type with more kindness, the master does not need
defense here or he would have a staff person doing it already.
Trust that he can take care of himself and you have not gotten agya
to go to war on his behalf, and Jim is not here to goad you, so,
try to not repeat old mistakes!
We all learn more and more.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:30:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Well put :} [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 03:03:21 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: To Bill etc.
Message:
Bill, etc.
Men have feelings too. And sometimes they get hurt.

One of the symtpoms of my illness, is to be extremely vulnerable.

A correction: bill, you claimed I should have said ' 'I see no evidence that Jagdeo abused someone.' On the contrary I always said I believe Jagdeo sexually abused the victims. What I tried to to point out. is that there in there is a major difference between raping / having sexual intercourse and fondling with a kid in the eyes of the law and I guess if you asked victims who have experienced such a thing, they would think you were crazy if you said there is no difference.
I am also sure that if anyone even touched one of my kids, I wouldn't rest until justice was done.

IMO, the actions and strategy in this case, strongly points to the evidence that J. was not the target. Another evidence of that, is that, true or false, someone at the EPO once told about another mahatma who was molesting young boys, but he was sent back to India. That is not a case to be discussed at EPO.

I would also say, as I have stated a few times before, IMO even to read about sexual abuse of children, stirs up bad memories and upsets anyone who has been a victim of sexual abuse.

Don't worry, unless I find a really good reason, and if possible I will avoid any contact with ex-premies. In retrospect, I consider my posting an reading at the EPO sites as probably the biggest mistake in my life.

The advice to check what you write before you post it, is something I think also others absolutely should take to heart.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:06:35 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: etc.
Message:
Hi Bjorn,
I think that the reason no one is pursueing the other mahatma is perhaps because we havent heard of his involvement in the mission of the rawat family of late, also, having someone who is definately
going through it with us here on the forum and processing publically
with us the whole experience links us to roar on her behalf and
insist on her getting heard and not dismissed as DID happen unfortunately.
It didnt help the cause that the EV faq's were so wrong in explaining the past, it did cause a lot of anger and I must say I was insulted
by it myself.
You know, it is said, that adversity reveals character. Well, the adversity that the ex premies provided did not reveal any applaudable
character traits in EV of prem rawat that I can name.
And I did hold him in the highest regard as you might guess from my previous role as gopi!

Well, the whole buddhist idea that there is no self aware god, just a oneness with qualities and humans playing roles as one with it- is
an idea that just about always produces the same result.
Madness.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 07:25:09 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: etc.
Message:
Here is a post from a former devotee of Gurajinda Singh who is also Satguru and Perfect master of the time.

More 'gems' from the South Central USA Newsletter:

_______________________________

'As you may have already heard, there appears to be a SLIGHT possibility that Baba Ji might make
a brief stop in Texas to be with us sometime this summer. To prepare for such a visit, even though the likelihood is small, I have asked secretaries in Austin, Dallas, and Houston (the most likely cities) to obtain information regarding suitable meeting places. A telephone tree for our regional area has also been set up, so that satsangis and seekers may be informed as soon as possible, if he should come.
(Name withheld) heads up this project. I would like to emphasize again that there is only a SLIGHT chance of such a visit. Even if he does not come, we should be happy that he has even been thinking about such a possibility!'

____________________________________

So GS is putting these people through all this anticipation and work on the off chance that he might decide to show up. People are jumping through hoops as we speak. No advance warning. The
telephone tree is set up to call people so they can drop whatever they are doing and go to be 'graced' by his wonderfulness.

This is really pathetic.

This shows what an inconsiderate jerk Gurinder is. How about giving them a date in advance so they can prepare and then actually showing up? What a concept. It is called R-E-S-P-O-N-S-I-B-L-I-T-Y. It is called C-O-N-S-I-D-E-R-A-T-I-O-N for one's fellow human beings.

God incarnate? He doesn't even display basic human decency.


---

reminds me of what happened in San Francisco. premies prepared for him '18 times' [quote from Sharon Stokke] futilely, because capricious m. and the tour coordinators teased and tricked them SF premies about megalomaniac m. coming.

Years of preparation + thousands of hours of lots of people's wasted energies -- better spent elsewhere.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 17:49:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: I had no idea!
Message:
How did all of this fit-in to your reality or belief system at the time? 18 times is unbelievable.

Bet the bugger NEVER thought twice about whether this shit would come back to haunt him.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 06:19:52 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bjorn, are you still here? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:20:32 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: Nollidge cures Bjorn !!!
Message:
Bjorn I think you need to meditate and watch some more videos, you're slipping to about an eight on the scale.

Seriously, we know you're not a pedophile, you have a social conscience, you're a good businessman and family man and a devoted follower of Rawat and Jagdeo. Isn't that enough for you?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:45:29 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And a touch of nostalgia before you go...
Message:

But, Bjorn, what if the five-year old asked you out for a drink sometime?

Yes Bjorn,

It's true, we've all fallen in love with five year-olds from time to time. Why just a few years ago I had this little airport encounter with a girl, oh, she couldn't have been more than six, maybe seven. God what a fox! A real hottie, as they say.

We were layed over in Denver in the middle of a storm. I was coming back from an ex-premie cult meeting and this little sweetie was just kind of hanging out doing the most exquisitely lovely things, playing with her older brother, running around. Boy, you don't see adults with that kind of energy, do you?

-- Sorry, I can't go on. This is too sick and my apologies to anyone and everyone. I just wanted to remind you, Bjorn, that you are indeed a sick puppy. Yeah, you're right. There's a lot you don't know and foremost among those things must be why you'd a) 'fall in love' with a five year-old and b) come ehe and tell us about it. Those things are best said as 'Expressions' on ELK, don't you think? It's not quite so warm and fuzzy here.

That's your friend Jim speaking before he told you to never email him, talk with on the forum or have any contact with him whatsoever or suffer the legal consequences. Remember? Ah the good old days...sniff, sniff.

'Memeber this? Ah memories..

I wrote in one post, that when I was a 14 year old kid, I fell in love with a kid of 5 years. I even wrote, I for a moment had sexual feelings.(for about 10 minutes). I remember I thought this girl was so funny so charming, so incredibel beautiful, that I thought I one day would marry her. My crush on her lasted about 3 days. And as I stated I never did any thing to her.

Now Bjorn, that was a pretty stupid thing to write in a discussion about jagdeo's crimes against children, wouldn't you say?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 18:41:43 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: And a touch of nostalgia before you go...
Message:
That is sick!! He does need help! He sounds like he always had a hung up with kids... Are the neighbors kids safe? Are his own kids safe? Is he for real coming here threatening with suing people?

My fricking god. Mariachi does sickens people's minds...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:06:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You are a liar, and you know it Gerry
Message:
It is true that I posted a post, where I stated that when I was a kid, (13, unsecure, counfused or whatever) I had a crush for a young kidfor a couple of days. I imagined I would marry her when she grew up. What I also wrote in the same post, is that I am grateful that such feelings never ever occured later in my live.
It is also true that when I was about 18 and still a virgin, (confused, insecure or whatever) a gay person made a pass on me. It made me somehow flattered, but I did not share his feelings. But all this is none of your business, Gerry, and I think honestly you are sick.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:15:55 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn E.
Subject: Tell me where the lie is, bim
Message:
Bjorn,

I was just poking around in the archives and I found those posts. I also read a good dozen or so posts where Jim reams you unmercifully, and IMO you deserved it.

What I don't understand about you is that you keep letting out these little smelly farts and then tell us all not to sniff the air. Who cares if someone made a pass at you when you were eighteen. Why bring it up?

I know it's none of my business, but why did someone kick the shit out of you? Noone, not even you deserves that kind of treatment. What brought it on?

About my post quoting you: would you prefer if I remove it? Better decide fast while I can still edit the post.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:20:59 (EDT)
From: Bjørn A
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Tell me where the lie is, bim
Message:
I know what is a lie and what is the truth. I have redressed your lies over and over again and still you repeat them. I have it in my files. I dont care if you delete what you wrote. Your lies and posts tell more about you that they say about me.
BTW I know something you would not like me to know. But I won't tell you what that is. Not now.
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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 06:00:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bjørn A
Subject: Bjorn, we've been here before.
Message:
Bjorn,

Go away. You're getting yourself into trouble again. Just like you did last time and the time before that.

Gerry is quite correct. Why are you parading all this crap here on the Ex-Premie forum. This not the place for it.

If all this stuff bothers you, go and get some professional help. Fuck knows why you want to puke all this crap out in front of a partly hostile audience.

Really Bjorn, get a grip of yourself.

Instead of using your problems to get attention, you'd be better going to somebody who can help you solve them.

And if you keep yelling to everyone that Gerry is a liar, at least you should say what his lies are. Or maybe like Pia, you think it's sufficient simply to yell 'Liar', and leave it at that.

Get your head our your arse Bjorn.

Anth where's me pistol?

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 07:45:19 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: So what, but please leave me alone.
Message:
Anth

Every human being has the right to redress his name and reputation; in a totalitarian regime like F6 it is impossible, but when I use that right here in what you call ' a partly hostile audience', it is still my right, and none of your business.

What I am trying to get, is to get a grip of myself. I think others should do the same.

Gerry is not correct at all. I have proved some of his lies before, but I am not going into that again. And behave yourself Anth, I might write some stuff people and you wouldn't like.

All I ask for is peace. Please leave me alone. If anything at least I have one excuse for my behaviour; I have been ill and one of the symptoms of my illness according to the 'book' and to my experience, is that I will have a tendency to express an anger above what is normal for me.

So I will choose if possible never to post here again, and that is my choice. I find it ridiculous to discuss somethings that cannot even be described. If you find it a fruitful life to spend your time smearing another persons name and reputation, that is your choice. Anyway I wish you the best in life.

Bjørn E.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 06:07:20 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: All you ask is peace.
Message:
Bjorn,

If all you want is peace, why the fuck are you sticking your head over the wall here, knowing full-well that some folk will throw rocks at you.

Surely if all you want is peace, this is not the place to find it.

I thought that's what the Captain did for you? Or have you left his cult too?

Good luck in your quest.

Anth the only peace you'll get round here is a piece of my mind.

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:55:39 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Bjørn
Subject: Bjorn, with the best will in the world...
Message:
So I will choose if possible never to post here again, and that is my choice. I find it ridiculous to discuss somethings that cannot even be described. If you find it a fruitful life to spend your time smearing another persons name and reputation, that is your choice. Anyway I wish you the best in life.

Anth din't smear your name and reputation. He said - not unkindly - your contributions here are not helping you and not helping anyone else. If you need help (which you yourself have suggested), this is not the place to find it.

And like Anth said, we have been here before. Go back one year or two years. Look in the archives: your exchanges with ex-premies follow the same pattern over and over - almost word-for -word. It's like that film Groundhog Day (if you have seen it). A living hell of frustrating repetition, with one difference - you can choose not to be here. I suggest, for your own good, you make that choice.

Seek help elsewhere and come back later, Bjorn. Ex-premies are not hateful by nature - they can be very supportive - but this forum is not here to provide group therapy. It is about Maharaji and Knowledge and exists primarily for the use of ex-premies. If you can stick to those topics and leave your own problems out of it, you might one day have a more fruitful dialogue.

Look after yourself, Bjorn. We can't do that - and neither can Maharaji, unfortunately. Take care.

(BTW: a web-page is not a 'totalitarian regime'. Anyway, you are free to opt for the democratic EnjoyingLife site, Maharaji.com or Pia's place where discussion is as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit...)

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Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001 at 18:27:31 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Just a comment Nigel
Message:
Did you really think I imagined that Anth would spend his life ruin MY name and reputation? Funny!!! But I realize that in order to smear Ms name, there is an oportunity to throw dirt on people who dont share ex-premies experience or feelings.

I am into getting cured from PTSD. A part of that is to at least try to clean myself from the lies and accusation, that has been posted about me. Because to me this has been painful so I have done what I felt was neccessary. I know better than anyone else my own history , what I wrote and what other people wrote . And if you find such behaviour to be what you call 'can be very supportive' we obiously live in different worlds with different values. I agree that the 'Groundhog Day' is a good example, but in my perspective it takes place everyday here at FV or F6. Over and over againd the same old stories, the same discussions.

BTW I have discussed a lot of topics at FV. Guess who brought up the things you are reffering to? Only a few times of several 100s posts from my side, the J. issue has been brought up, from my side to get the facts straight, from my oponents side the motive seems to stop me posting by humiliating me. And to tell the truth , the discussions about other topics have never been fruitful.

Nigel, there is a big difference between a site that is a promotional site and a discussion site. In history 'totalitarian regime', , abuse power, and censor oponents, but pretends like they don't. I am aware that not everyone has been banned, but I am also aware that at least previously quite a few posts were deleted, and about every oponent was attacked, mobbed and ridiculed.

I applaude that due to 'competion' and critisism, the awareness and counsciousness at the EPO have reached another level, but still there is a lot of dirty stuff going on.

Having said that, I hope I can say goodbye for good. I wish no harm, but I hope that everyone can enjoy life the best they can whatever way thay choose.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:40:19 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn A
Subject: Fire away Bim Doubtfire
Message:
woo woo. I'm scared now.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:12:19 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'we had to surrender to his program'
Message:
After their faith in the guru is crushed, fearful ex-disciples face the prospect of life outside the church
Wednesday, July 18, 2001


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By Richard Read of The Oregonian staff
Debi Moore recalls cringing as Swami Chetanananda joked and laughed at dinner in a villa where he stayed in Nepal in 1999.

Moore says she shifted uncomfortably as she sat with other disciples on floor pillows. She remembers watching closely as Chetanananda, a Kentucky-born guru originally named J. Michael Shoemaker, held forth on a couch far from the Northeast Portland manor where he lives with about 75 followers.

Moore, then a 46-year-old data analyst, says she had traveled with her boyfriend to Katmandu to decide whether to stay with the spiritual leader she had revered for 26 years. She says she was appalled by tales of violence during sexual encounters she had repeatedly heard were taking place between Chetanananda and women in his flock.

Moore says the whispered reports of violence shattered the belief system she had so carefully constructed during a quarter-century of meditation and worship. She recalls agonizing at the prospect of leaving the practice, believing that quitting would halt her spiritual development.

Chetanananda repeatedly declined requests for an interview with The Oregonian concerning disciples' allegations of sexual abuse and other issues. Last Thursday, he submitted a typed statement in response to a summary of the accusations.

In the statement, the swami defended his sexual relationships with his students as appropriate. He did not specifically respond to an allegation that he had had violent sex with women who suffered injuries, including a disciple who appeared to Moore and her boyfriend to be hurt in 1998.
'I am not a sadist and I am not violent,' he wrote.

Moore says that in February 1999 she found the guru ensconced in a Spanish-style, Katmandu home.
She thought the house, with its marble floors, wide porches, manicured lawn and guarded front gate, stuck out from the poverty and simplicity of the ancient city. She remembers recoiling at what she viewed as excesses: A caretaker, a driver, two cooks and women doing laundry scurried around, and a barber stopped in.

On this night of the full moon, Moore recalls, two dozen disciples sat around a candlelit table on rich Oriental rugs. She says a young Tibetan woman interpreted between the swami and Wangdu, a Tibetan lama, as three little girls watched with the reverence of grandchildren.

Moore says Chetanananda made a crass joke, ribbing Wangdu about getting laid.

Laid. He used that word, Moore remembers thinking. She says she watched the translator squirm beneath a prim buttoned-up white blouse, dutifully interpreting while Wangdu glanced sideways.

Moore says that as the swami forged on, lacing his jokes with vulgar terms, she felt he enjoyed the young woman's embarrassment. Finally she cut in.
'Swami,' Moore recalls saying. 'The children.'
Moore says she returned to Portland after accompanying the swami and his entourage on a photo safari in a Nepali tiger reserve. She slipped her goodbye note under the swami's door in the ashram April 9, 1999.

'I love you,' she wrote. 'Every day I'm grateful for what I've received from you and the community.'

'I promise you, Shree (sic), the people who stand against me will be crushed, and their children and their grandchildren.' -- Chetanananda, autumn 1998, writing to Sree Chakravarti, a healer from India. In the letter, he accused her of trying to disturb his relationships with his students and supporting efforts to destroy him

Former disciples say that 10 longtime devotees, including Moore, left the ashram in spring 1999 as tales of sex and violence circulated.

Disciple Dana Swift recalls sitting in group meditation and seeing herself get up and leave. She says the vision came again, during another session, and again. On April 29, 1999, Swift quit the program, 11 years after signing up.
The previous month, Chetanananda and Nityananda Institute had entered a confidential legal settlement with Portland-area lawyer Melinda Mandell, a former follower who had filed suit accusing them of breach of contract, racketeering and other wrongdoing.

The Oregonian obtained records of the case later, before Multnomah County Circuit Judge David Gernant sealed them at Mandell's request. Mandell's attorney argued that allegations contained in the case file could damage reputations of the people involved. He added that Mandell thought that alleged thefts of personal property she had reported to police during the proceedings would be less likely to continue if the file were sealed.

Mandell, a Portland lawyer, declined to comment, and she objected to The Oregonian identifying her and reporting on the case.

Moore, Swift and other disciples who left Chetanananda that spring say that quitting the spiritual practice had once been almost impossible to contemplate. In one stroke, they say, a disciple would have to give up friends, community, religion, home -- and in some cases, church employment -- for an uncertain future.

Ex-members say people tended to leave after a cathartic event shattered their faith in the guru. Boston cook Marty Keady, an ashram chef and disciple for four years, says he felt disgust in 1996 when he realized he enjoyed seeing the guru castigate another follower.

Jim Hassan, a Massachusetts man who joined the ashram in 1989, says he lost faith after hearing that the swami was sleeping with a friend. ' 'If you leave, you'll be dead within a year,' ' Hassan says the guru threatened him in 1994.

But former disciples say that it wasn't until May 1999 that Chetanananda drew an explicit line between the ashram and the outside world. Moore recalls that her boyfriend, who had stayed with the swami, told her that the guru had forbidden his followers to talk with anyone who had left.

Chetanananda wrote in his statement last week that he had never threatened anybody who wanted to leave his community. He said he did not prohibit students outright from contact with former members. Today, in fact, not all members shun former disciples.

Moore says her boyfriend told her the swami's directive that May gave him an impossible choice: Her or the guru. Moore says she felt scared.
'If he gives you the Kool-Aid,' Moore remembers asking her boyfriend, 'will you take it?'
* * * * *
Moore recalls that in August 1999, fear gripped her as she clutched her steering wheel. She says she forced herself to turn into the parking lot of the ashram at 1021 N.E. 33rd Ave., for the first time since quitting.

Moore says she walked quickly toward the door on an errand stemming from her position as treasurer of the Kerns Neighborhood Association. She held an envelope containing cash for the annual
neighborhood picnic, which disciples had helped build into a popular event drawing about 500 people.

She recalls glancing at the institute's steel fence, afraid she might be charged by the Rottweilers, the dogs kept on the premises as pets. The big, brick manor loomed above her.
No one accosted Moore that day or threatened her. But she says her fear was palpable.
Moore remembers hearing similar expressions of fear when she attended the meeting of an informal support group made up of former members. The ex-disciples say they feared the swami because they knew his temper and his violent talk. They say they feared him because, even when they knew it was irrational, they had been told so long that he could read their minds. Most of all, they say they feared him because they felt -- by staring into their eyes during meditation for years, and in other ways -- he had penetrated the core of their beings.
Chetanananda disputed such impressions in his statement last week. 'No harm has ever happened to any person who has left our community as the result of any action by me or anyone associated with me,' he wrote.

But one woman says she continued to experience nightmares every couple of weeks 13 years after leaving the ashram. Her then-husband had bad dreams just as often -- every night, when he was under stress -- seeing the guru coming after him, sucking him back inside.
Former members got unlisted phone numbers. They told friends not to reveal their addresses. They asked police to watch their homes.
They say they feared not just the swami but his most fervent followers, people they believed might do anything -- as they felt they themselves once would have -- to prove loyalty to a man who represented a higher law.

Former disciple Aurelia Navarro, who recalls enraging the swami by researching his sexual liaisons before quitting the ashram, says he told her, 'If this were India, I would be found floating face-down in the Ganges' River.
* * * * * *
'Generating a vision . . . That's having a very, very deep and profound commitment to something bigger than you. For me, it was my teacher . . .' -- Chetanananda, during a talk in Santa Monica, Calif., June 14, 2000

Inside the ashram, the routine continued. Ashram resident Michelle Lawson, a former San Francisco lawyer who became a disciple in 1996, said last July she was incredulous at the hostility and fear. Lawson and Cynthia Brown, a 27-year disciple and chairwoman of Portland State University computer science department, said they believed the swami had attained enlightenment.
'There's no coercion in our group,' said Brown, who acknowledged the institute was not a democracy. 'If we had 15 enlightened people, then we could all decide, but we've only got one.'
Some former members, who cited negative aspects of their experience in the ashram, also describe benefits. Melanie Rubin, a disciple from 1985 to 1998, still remembers meditation classes with the swami as some of the most powerful, heart-opening and beautiful experiences of her life.
Rubin, a documentary video producer, says the swami's sexual conduct and autocratic style created an unhealthy environment for her. But she says she appreciated the structure that let her pursue her spiritual development, and the chance to participate in a community of warm, intelligent people.

Ashram teacher Ruth Knight, a 23-year devotee, smiled blissfully last July as she introduced a reporter for The Oregonian to the meditation practice.
Knight reclined on an easy chair in an ashram living room beneath a painting of Rudi, the swami's late guru, pictured sitting naked on a leopard skin.
'To really have a guru is an amazing and rare event,' Knight said. 'A student has to have a master in order to progress.
'A teacher needs to be from a lineage. A lineage can sort of be thought of as an energy field.' Energy comes down from guru to guru.
Knight led the reporter through the meditation routine.

Breathe in through your nose. Feel the breath enter between your eyebrows. Feel it come down to the throat chakra, or energy center, past the heart chakra and into the abdomen.
'In spiritual work, you're asking to grow and change. But the ego tries to maintain the status quo,' Knight said. 'People are very clever at finding ways to justify no longer growing . . . and quit their practice.'
Sharon Ward, the institute's executive director and general counsel, dismissed former members' fears as outlandish.

Ward said during an interview last September that the group was not a cult but a spiritual community, and she described the swami as an open and compassionate man.

'If you want to really understand who we are, come and meet me, meet us. You may or may not want to practice yoga and meditation here. But in either case, know, from within yourself, who we are.' -- Chetanananda, Sept. 18, 2000, in a public statement sent to The Oregonian after refusing numerous requests for an interview
On Dec. 21, 2000, an e-mail from an outsider alerted Ward to a new Web site, launching a battle that continues. Former members had created the site -- www.leaving-nityananda-institute.org -- that featured an anonymous statement about Chetanananda by 11 people.

'He told us the only thing we had to surrender was our tensions,' the open letter said, 'when in fact we were expected to surrender everything to his program: our families, our girlfriends if we were men, our bodies if we were women . . . our money, our former religious beliefs and morals, and our sense of belonging in the society at large.'
Soon afterward, institute members registered Internet domain names, such as www.leaving-nityananda-institute.com, resembling that of the former members' site, to steer Web surfers their way. The sites accused the former members of using hate-group tactics to incite prejudice and intolerance.
Six members posted a signed statement describing the institute's philosophy. 'Neither students nor teachers are required to practice celibacy,' they wrote. 'Everyone is free to make his or her own choices regarding personal relationships.'
This week, former members updated their Web site with results of a recent survey of several ex-disciples, many of whom reported behavior described as abusive.
In his typed statement, the swami said accusations were being made by 'a small but vocal circle of former members who regularly meet to distribute malicious gossip via the Internet. . . . The allegations that are not outright lies are distortions so gross as to be impossible to respond to.'
'Interpersonal experience . . . while full of caring, may also be full of chaos and clutter. Many religious rules, such as celibacy, are established to save us from that clutter.' -- Chetanananda, Institute newsletter, January 2001, explaining that rules don't apply to his religion of love

Dana Swift, who spent 11 years following Chetanananda, has moved to another state and found a new job. She shuns spiritual teachers. But she continues meditating occasionally, and does Tibetan and Hindi chanting.

Hone Ames, who spent 10 years as a disciple, has moved away from Portland, renewed friendships and family ties and resumed her career as an author. Ames says that a medical doctor and a therapist diagnosed her as suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. But she says she now enjoys a full life free of manipulation and fear.
One of 11 women who told The Oregonian that Chetanananda had sex with them is now a medical practitioner.

'I went through a period of time when I wanted to cut him up in little pieces,' she says. 'I don't think if I was somebody with a good childhood, that had a lot of support, I would have gotten into it.'

Current Nityananda Institute members reject the authoritarian label. 'Nobody worships him; he's just a very, very fine and extremely caring person,' said Pat Tarzian, a 13-year member. 'I'm not in a cult, wearing orange,' said Carolyn Morgan, a member for more than 20 years.
Ruth Knight, who teaches in The Movement Center, the institute's yoga school, which has provided a source of new disciples, said recently that the program had a record 300 students. Knight dismisses public criticism as the product of a vendetta by a handful of disgruntled former followers.
'I wish them well,' Knight says. 'I think they've created a hell for themselves that they can't get out of.'
* * * * * *
Debi Moore heaved a chunk of seasoned maple out her barn door last winter and pulled a maul off a wall rack. Deftly, she tipped the log on end with her right foot, stepped back and swung the maul in an arc over her head.
Almost two years after quitting the ashram, Moore was continuing to rebuild her life, settling into a rural routine far from Portland. She and her boyfriend bought acreage and a run-down house in a mountain range where no one would think to find them. They stayed together after each emerged separately from Chetanananda's influence.
'I didn't know he'd get out,' Moore says of her boyfriend. 'You can't talk someone out. It occurred in him.'
She grieved over lost friends inside. She met with a therapist. She read about cult psychology. Gradually, she says, she overcame paralyzing fear of the guru.
She began a new job, started exercising and took a pottery class.
She and her boyfriend installed windows and insulation. They framed walls, planted 200 trees and watched deer come down from the mountains.
Moore still felt a hunger for something deeper, a thirst for spiritual meaning. But she knew that when she returned to that quest, it would have to ring true in her mind, her body, her emotions and her relationships with others.
The maul hung in the air. Moore flexed her arms.
Moore knew that some other ex-members still felt victimized. But after 26 years with the swami and nearly two years free of him, she considered herself a survivor.
at: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/lc_43guru18.frame

The steel wedge neatly cleaved the firewood with a satisfying clunk. Moore tossed the pieces on a sturdy cart and hauled it toward the house.
You can reach Richard Read at 503-294-5135 or richread@aol.com.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 00:21:47 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Does THIS sound familiar?
Message:
The following material is taken from the leaving-nityananda-institute
.org website. Sounds pretty familiar to me!********************************************************************

The Cult Test: If You Are In Doubt

Identifying Traits of Abusive Groups

We offer a shorthand list followed by a longer list of cultic traits compiled from: Recovery From Cults, by Michael D. Langone, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich, 'Crazy' Therapies, by Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Combating Cult Mind Control, by Steven Hassan

Michael Langone, in his article 'Cults, Violence, and the Millennium,' suggests the following three characteristics as essential in the definition of a cultic group:

1. centralized control by a charismatic leader
2. an us-versus-them mentality that isolates
3. a lack of tolerance for dissent

Compiled list:

1.Control-oriented leadership – leader claims to be an all-knowing, liberated being.

2.Hierarchical structure with an elite inner circle – including leader’s assistants.

3.Group leader not accountable to any authorities, as are, for example: military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations.

4.Polarized us-versus-them, black-or-white mentality causing conflict with wider society.

5.Manipulation of members by alternating guilt/anxiety/fear/ostracism and attention.

6.Group perception of being spiritually unique/elite and separate from normal culture.

7.Denunciation of other spiritual/religious leaders and groups.

8.Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about group and leader.

9.Spiritual practices emphasize experience rather than rationality.

10.Sexual abuse - leader uses power to sexually exploit members.

11.Economic exploitation of members by leader and assistants.

12.Confidentiality of members private affairs (legal, medical) violated by leader and assistants.

13.Members’ subservience to group causes them to cut or weaken ties with family, friends, and personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining group.

14.Reliance on outside professional help, doctors, therapists, etc., discouraged.

15.Leader poses as self-sacrificing divine agent who only promotes members’ well-being.

16.Service is inner directed toward the group not the surrounding community.

17.Revamping of members’ cultural/moral values to suit leader’s lifestyle and program.

18.Conformity to group’s/leader’s values, life style, mode of dress, diet, esthetics, and so on.

19.Promotion of dependence on group/leader – often disguised.

20.Important personal decisions must be approved by leader – members seek his blessing.

21.Phobia induction vis-à-vis leaving the group/leader.

22.Painful exit process – ex-members ridiculed, threatened, and dumped.

Note: If you check any of these items as characteristics of the group you are concerned about, and particularly if you check many of them, you should reexamine the group and your relationship to it. Such reexamination usually runs against the dictates of the group leaders and will be difficult for the member to do. Begin by speaking to outside health and legal professionals and ex-members. If your group is indeed healthy and non-abusive, there is nothing to fear from taking these cautionary steps.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:51 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: 'we had to surrender to his program'
Message:
Wow didn't this line get you:

The sites accused the former members of using hate-group tactics to incite prejudice and intolerance.

fuckin eeerrrrie

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:15:00 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: like day job view, er deja vu [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:27:35 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind'
Message:
Over on Life's Great, somebody quoted Maharaji from Rome in 1977, talking about the mind. Once again, I'm reminded of the damaging and ridiculous stuff he indoctrinated into his premies.

'When I say mind, I mean mind. Not your brain that has things going on in it, blood going through it, and which thinks and sees for you. I'm talking about something that sorta hovers, like a bee, all around that area. It follows you wherever you go, bugs you whenever it can, troubles you whenever it can, even in your quietest moments. That little thing that does it is what I'm talking about. That's what I'm refering to as 'mind.' Hans Jyanti 9/11/77 Rome, Italy

This whole ideological crap that Maharaji taught that there is a part of yourself that 'follows you around' and 'troubles you' is one of the most damaging things he did to us. It was a way to keep people attached to Maharaji, because the 'enemy is within' and is kind of a ghostly tormentor, after you all the time.

Absolute bullshit, and very destructive.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:43:16 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji and 'the (evil/annoying) mind'
Message:
Hi Joe,
I wonder if he didn't have it about 20% right. It isn't so far-fetched that a 'part' of oneself can be disturbing. After all, it's a common belief in psychology that we take on elements in our environment and internalize them and give them life. For instance, a critical parent; even after their gone, they still leave a residue.

I think maharaji capitalized on this occurrence and promised a solution. And I think the reason so many premies took it to heart was because their 'minds' or parts of themselves did trouble them.

The dirty trick was that he didn't have a solution. And obviously, his characterization of the 'mind', or whatever it is that troubles people in their own heads, was greatly distorted to disguise the fact he didn't have a solution.

He really went off the track with the 'Mr. Mind' business. He turned it into something satanic, and made himself the antidote. He also greatly distorted the consequences of not dealing with the 'mind', and especially of not dealing with it how he prescribed.

Actually, most people who do nothing about what troubles them just plod on. And most people who follow maharaji are in a very peculiar hell. He just got confused on the details.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:23 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum??
Message:
In a thread below Francesca said to David Andersen (who has had the good sense to depart after admitting that he had an agenda to present the other side):

We have an ex-premie Forum here for people to let their hair down, deconstruct, discuss. Then premies lurk, and where the ex-premies feel free to express themselves, if it is extreme, the premie lurkers just feel compelled to jump into the fray. Often when premies start posting, they are very angry. Your sister (Erika) was a notable exception. But this place was not created for committed premies, but they are free to be here, of course, and participate.

So we end up with this odd situation where I would never say the kinds of things I say on this Forum to premie friends or family, because they would NOT want to hear it. Socially we avoid getting into a head-to-head confrontation on views that will necessarily be opposing, although we may discuss it a little. It is definitely not an 'us' and 'them' thing. But here, where the topic is what it is, confrontations happen that may not happen elsewhere. And tempers flare, and words flame. Sometimes the sensitive exes are really traumatized and stop posting here. And some of the premies feel like their views are not appreciated, but that's what Lifes Great is for.

I responded to Francesca thus: You just said something to David that explains one of the big reasons that I have decided to limit my participation in the forum. More premies are coming here. In real life I am a live and let live kind of guy and would not dream of confronting premies or arguing with them. I have no right to attempt to convince someone else that I am right and they are wrong.

Unfortunately as you say, this forum is for expremies who really can no longer stomach hearing the praises of rawat sung- no matter how kind and courteous the premie is. We react to singing his praises in much the same way premies react to us criticising him. It rubs us the wrong way.

The expremie forum is not a level playing field anymore than Lifes Great is. The game on either side is rigged. I no longer post on LG for that reason. Why would I want to go into someone's house and criticise their furniture? Why would a premie want to come here?

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 03:26:56 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, why do premies post on Expremie Forum?
Message:
I dunno, Pat, but I cannot help feeling that there is a wierd game of strip-tease going on! It strains the old credules overmuch to imagine that Charles Glasser (he of hate-site fame), having gone to all THAT trouble to make a splash, would not want to get stuck in here. Now, let me see if I can imagine what sort of posts he'd make. Oh yes. Here's one.

And the same with your old friend David Whitla. It is clear to anyone interested that he has posted as the appalling Catweasle and has long been generally loutish and, I would say, thugish on line in defence of 'his' cult. Could it be argued he does not realise that the way he uses words radiates enmity and an almost palpable desire to hurt and harm? I don't think so, not if one bears in mind his 'real life' identity.

One is forced to consider that these are confused and divided people, who really do want to shed their cloaks and join in the fun. But that would mean letting go of much they have previously held sacrosanct. So they hang around, shedding a sock here, a necktie there, perhaps occasionally allowing a flash of the true person to be exposed.

It's a kind of strip-tease, Pat. But I've never enjoyed talking with premies, I'm afraid. Although I am sure many of your premie friends are warm and wonderful people to be with, I would probably avoid them (if I knew!). It's strange, as I do feel that a person's conscious mind -- or at any rate their beliefs and theories about things -- is just a small part of their total being. It's not just the premie-like systematic cognitive disability (at least about K and M) and false assurance that careers into kraziness that I find discomforting. That can be avoided. What I find so hard to take about the premie mind-set is that there is a wilful ignore-ance. I experience that as a sort of self-mutilation and it repells me. The world has seen many great philosophers and saints, poets and musicians. Yet to the premie mind, these are all as tinkling bells compared to Rawat.

Now, ex-premies on the other hand are a different matter entirely. By and large they seem the same beautiful open-hearted types they ever were. Full of compassion and understanding, warmth and empathy, but now with a suitably accute sense that there IS a truth to things, there IS something that matters apart from feeling nice and fuzzy from meditation and wilful ignore-ance. And deluded attachments.

I first found the EPO site when I searched for Maharaji's site for MrsT. Then I read all of the Journeys (this was about 18 months ago). Many of those Journeys caused me to weep and rage. But one writer in particular cried in her agony that no-one seemed to care, except those others who had also been in the cult but had extricated themselves. My grief told me otherwise. I cared, and I cared very deeply, that she had been taken advantage of on that way.

I have no idea whether my involvement as a relative outsider has given any reassurance that yes, there are people who care about the abuses carried out by Rawat under the cover of being a spiritual master. But people do care about these abuses. Cultic mind-control is an issue. Leave the Jehovas' Witnesses and your family and friends are forbidden on pain of excommunication to have anything to do with you ever again. Another guy I work with know has a friend whose daughter was stolen by Zen Master Rama. He would like to do something about that. People do care about this issue, it has touched so many lives.

Like most denizens of the ex-premie Forum (version 6), I have all the time in the world for sincere people trying to reclaim their lives, minds and selfhoods back from the greedy vampire Rawat. I find the apologists, let alone the cynical defenders of the cult, unpleasant. But that merely makes me more sure that we are doing the right thing to face the lowlife and the deludes and say, quite simply...

Time to let go.

One love.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 19:19:22 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: A wonderful post JohnT (NT)
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:54:26 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It was thru EPO I found Lifes Great,
Message:
In a thread below Francesca said to David Andersen (who has had the good sense to depart after admitting that he had an agenda to present the other side):

We have an ex-premie Forum here for people to let their hair down, deconstruct, discuss. Then premies lurk, and where the ex-premies feel free to express themselves, if it is extreme, the premie lurkers just feel compelled to jump into the fray. Often when premies start posting, they are very angry. Your sister (Erika) was a notable exception. But this place was not created for committed premies, but they are free to be here, of course, and participate.

So we end up with this odd situation where I would never say the kinds of things I say on this Forum to premie friends or family, because they would NOT want to hear it. Socially we avoid getting into a head-to-head confrontation on views that will necessarily be opposing, although we may discuss it a little. It is definitely not an 'us' and 'them' thing. But here, where the topic is what it is, confrontations happen that may not happen elsewhere. And tempers flare, and words flame. Sometimes the sensitive exes are really traumatized and stop posting here. And some of the premies feel like their views are not appreciated, but that's what Lifes Great is for.

I responded to Francesca thus: You just said something to David that explains one of the big reasons that I have decided to limit my participation in the forum. More premies are coming here. In real life I am a live and let live kind of guy and would not dream of confronting premies or arguing with them. I have no right to attempt to convince someone else that I am right and they are wrong.

Unfortunately as you say, this forum is for expremies who really can no longer stomach hearing the praises of rawat sung- no matter how kind and courteous the premie is. We react to singing his praises in much the same way premies react to us criticising him. It rubs us the wrong way.

The expremie forum is not a level playing field anymore than Lifes Great is. The game on either side is rigged. I no longer post on LG for that reason. Why would I want to go into someone's house and criticise their furniture? Why would a premie want to come here?


---

M's page, the World wide Linkup and the lyrics to Arti. I also saw people I'd known posting. I saw people being verbally abusive, and I'm talking about exes to exes (exes to premies, especially our jerks in our Hate club - fortunately as small a minority as the exes in your hate club seems to be - we've got to sort of expect that, especially if we are rude enough to atempt satsang here.

And so I started coming for 2 reasons, to see what was going on with old buds, and to seek to intervene when someone seemed to be being trashed inapropriately (IMO, of course). Ocasionally I come, now, to corect a misquote , or even a miscarachterization, of something I've said.

I commit to you folks, I'll try and give you the kind of respect I want you to give me. I may use an alias, if I fear anti-premie bias on the part of some might obscure some point I wish to convey. But I know I am a guest here; even under an alias I will strive to be one worthy of welcome.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:19:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?
Message:
PatC, I feel the same way about LG. Let the premies have their forum and say what they want without being nipped on the bud.

But, coming over to the exes forum, is a whole other ball of wax.

I would also like to express the importance of introducing yourself and letting people know what you are here for. Many of the premies give nothing. They want to take up our time.

We exes can be far more potential if we let the ridiculous posts remain unchallenged. It's taking up valuable time.

Where I disagree with you is posts from sincere and honest premies.
I appreciate the honesty. And I applaud the honour and integrity to stand up for what they believe. The angry revisionists with the incoherent statements are better left unanswered by the 'had enoughs'.

Someone else will pick them up or they'll hang impotently.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:57:41 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?
Message:
Austrian Drapes? The furniture re-arranged? Fresh flowers ? OH MY GOD .......We've been burgled! Gay Burgulars!
Pat why dont you just settle? They are ,until passwords are used, open public forums. All four. Reality is a bummer Pat.
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 04:20:09 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: I don't agree, Pussy
Message:
You said; ''...forums. All four. Reality is a bummer Pat.''


I say: There are only three M related fora and reality is beautiful.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:45:32 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: LG:pwks' denial;flamed me 4 discussing m-LOL [nt]
Message:
LG:pwks' denial;flamed me 4 discussing m-LOL
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:04:03 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?
Message:
PatC,

I'm a bit confused why you would stop posting because more premies were posting now. This is a forum FOR past followers - says so right at the top. I thought you of all people would welcome a more open dialogue.

Anyway, here is an exchange from below where David A. responded to just that question. I'm not sure he answered the question but there are some interesting and revealing statements in there.

Richard

RR: I am curious why you have been lurking (reading and not posting) for so long if you are satisfied with M&K. I also lurked here for quite some time and told myself it was National Enquirer type fascination or Premie Pornography. I was drawn to discussions on the forums because, even though I had quit practicing K several years before, there were still many unresolved issues. For myself, just writing about my experiences has been extremely rewarding.
Richard

DA:Great question. I have been observing here (lurking is kinda perjorative) for a while, and have been confronted and propelled into some amazing experiences by what I've read. It has confirmed the fact for me that my passion for Knowledge, and my love for Mr. Rawat, is simple, and true for me, and not based on a bunch of Hindu concepts, not based on other peoples' ideas.

I have had the chance to spend quite a bit of time with M over the past 15 years, in many different private and public situations, and my perceptions of him,and his behavior, via my direct experience, are a radical departure from most of what has been said here. My reactions when I first started to come here were extremely emotional
---
-like someone had attacked a family member, a child
---
and then, gradually, I started to see that the attackers were people just like me, and that the seed of everything nasty I saw and judged in other people was in me as well. And the blame and anger and warlike stance kinda faded. My brother wrote an article for the New Yorker, which was never published (regretfully, IMO) that very intelligently and creatively looked at M and EV, and the EPO, and attempted to suss whether M and EV were, in fact, a cult or not. His opinion was no; his further opinion was that many of the posters on the EPO site had psychological issues that prevented them from letting go of old hurts and moving on.

There have been a ton of mistakes made by people who thought they were serving M by treating other people like shit; there have been a ton of spiritual concepts jettisoned in 30 years; M, above all, is a human being, and to somehow freeze him in the space he was when he was 15, or 20, like a bug in amber, denies him his essential humanity: the right to grow, and change, and fail, and succeed.

Should he apologize to people for the pain they experienced? Maybe. That's up to him. Would I apologize to people, if I was in his position, for my own growth and change? I just don't know. But the fact that he does or does not does not alter my love or respect for him. I've been around a lot of addicts and alcoholics in my life, and Maharaji is neither. He's a great dad. He's an incredibly funny and kind man. He treats those who serve him personally with tremendous respect. What can I tell you? This is my direct personal experience, based on last month, not 20 years ago.

I loved M before I knew him personally, and I love him now. I absolutely support your right to see things a completely different way, and do not see you as flawed for doing so. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy. That's the crux, actually, of why the forum is ultimately exes' own worst enemy: the denial of an essential, bedrock validity to the lives of the people who practice K and love M.

People aren't stupid. They eventually feel who's coming from where, and make their own informed decisions.

I think you'll start to see a much richer dialogue now between exes and premies, and many more sites put up by pwks with their own story to tell, completely independent of EV. And I say bring it fucking on.

Talk to you soon
---

---
DA

Thanks again for that David but, at least for now, you are the only premie willing to discuss his experiences and beliefs openly. I welcome more open dialogue as well. - RR

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:33:10 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: RR, David isn't the only premie willing to
Message:
PatC,

I'm a bit confused why you would stop posting because more premies were posting now. This is a forum FOR past followers - says so right at the top. I thought you of all people would welcome a more open dialogue.

Anyway, here is an exchange from below where David A. responded to just that question. I'm not sure he answered the question but there are some interesting and revealing statements in there.

Richard

RR: I am curious why you have been lurking (reading and not posting) for so long if you are satisfied with M&K. I also lurked here for quite some time and told myself it was National Enquirer type fascination or Premie Pornography. I was drawn to discussions on the forums because, even though I had quit practicing K several years before, there were still many unresolved issues. For myself, just writing about my experiences has been extremely rewarding.
Richard

DA:Great question. I have been observing here (lurking is kinda perjorative) for a while, and have been confronted and propelled into some amazing experiences by what I've read. It has confirmed the fact for me that my passion for Knowledge, and my love for Mr. Rawat, is simple, and true for me, and not based on a bunch of Hindu concepts, not based on other peoples' ideas.

I have had the chance to spend quite a bit of time with M over the past 15 years, in many different private and public situations, and my perceptions of him,and his behavior, via my direct experience, are a radical departure from most of what has been said here. My reactions when I first started to come here were extremely emotional
---
-like someone had attacked a family member, a child
---
and then, gradually, I started to see that the attackers were people just like me, and that the seed of everything nasty I saw and judged in other people was in me as well. And the blame and anger and warlike stance kinda faded. My brother wrote an article for the New Yorker, which was never published (regretfully, IMO) that very intelligently and creatively looked at M and EV, and the EPO, and attempted to suss whether M and EV were, in fact, a cult or not. His opinion was no; his further opinion was that many of the posters on the EPO site had psychological issues that prevented them from letting go of old hurts and moving on.

There have been a ton of mistakes made by people who thought they were serving M by treating other people like shit; there have been a ton of spiritual concepts jettisoned in 30 years; M, above all, is a human being, and to somehow freeze him in the space he was when he was 15, or 20, like a bug in amber, denies him his essential humanity: the right to grow, and change, and fail, and succeed.

Should he apologize to people for the pain they experienced? Maybe. That's up to him. Would I apologize to people, if I was in his position, for my own growth and change? I just don't know. But the fact that he does or does not does not alter my love or respect for him. I've been around a lot of addicts and alcoholics in my life, and Maharaji is neither. He's a great dad. He's an incredibly funny and kind man. He treats those who serve him personally with tremendous respect. What can I tell you? This is my direct personal experience, based on last month, not 20 years ago.

I loved M before I knew him personally, and I love him now. I absolutely support your right to see things a completely different way, and do not see you as flawed for doing so. I would hope you would extend me the same courtesy. That's the crux, actually, of why the forum is ultimately exes' own worst enemy: the denial of an essential, bedrock validity to the lives of the people who practice K and love M.

People aren't stupid. They eventually feel who's coming from where, and make their own informed decisions.

I think you'll start to see a much richer dialogue now between exes and premies, and many more sites put up by pwks with their own story to tell, completely independent of EV. And I say bring it fucking on.

Talk to you soon
---

---
DA

Thanks again for that David but, at least for now, you are the only premie willing to discuss his experiences and beliefs openly. I welcome more open dialogue as well. - RR


---

discuss his experiances openly and with respect for an exes having his/her own chosen perspective; there are a few of us. Since I am an unrepentant bhakti most of the time it will not be apropriate for here, but AG or LG are both available.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:57:55 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: You are correct Carlos
Message:
Glad you pointed that out and glad you are into conversation. Why else come except for civil exchange?
RR
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:17:51 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Richard
Subject: Members of both the premie & ex hate
Message:
Glad you pointed that out and glad you are into conversation. Why else come except for civil exchange?
RR


---

clubs come to these forums to spew hatred. NB exes: I am NOT talking about venting, even nasty as shit venting, against my guy. I understand that such may be helpful to you in shedding associations/attachments you want to get rid of. When I recognize venting, I don't see the venter as a hate club member. And I know that, thusfar, anyway, there aren't any real clubs. But it is a good descriptive phrase; I like it.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:19:51 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: I do my best to ignore ignoramuses
Message:
Anybody being hateful is ignorant. I don't relate to this 'hate club' thing. I see it mentioned frequently, especially on Lifes Great (sikh) but don't notice much actual hatred per se. I notice ex's being much more outspoken, honest and specific and premies being more fearful, vague and evasive but not much hatred expressed either way. I think 'those hate club people' is a way of saying 'I'm afraid of having my belief system challenged'.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:43:05 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Richard
Subject: I think it is (as most fools who use it
Message:
Anybody being hateful is ignorant. I don't relate to this 'hate club' thing. I see it mentioned frequently, especially on Lifes Great (sikh) but don't notice much actual hatred per se. I notice ex's being much more outspoken, honest and specific and premies being more fearful, vague and evasive but not much hatred expressed either way. I think 'those hate club people' is a way of saying 'I'm afraid of having my belief system challenged'.

Richard


---

do so) the actions of a few being credited not just to the ones who did it but to the whole group of which they are a small and, in this case, IMO, NOT representative sub-group. That's one of the reasons I stress there is a 'Premie Hate Club' as well as an Ex Hate Club'. We both have our fringe subgroup of sickos who go to far. At least, they seem sick to me because I find their tactics abusive and all abuse is sisk as far as I am concerned.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:04:11 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: I disagree, Carlos
Message:
Since I am an unrepentant bhakti most of the time it will not be apropriate for here, but AG or LG are both available.

I think your input is valuable here even if you are a bit of an anachronism. People need to recall (or hear for the first time) what it really means to be a premie. I admire your straight forward honesty, and your polite style certainly engenders respect.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:23:33 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: gerry
Subject: I meant that sharing my experiance in
Message:
Since I am an unrepentant bhakti most of the time it will not be apropriate for here, but AG or LG are both available.

I think your input is valuable here even if you are a bit of an anachronism. People need to recall (or hear for the first time) what it really means to be a premie. I admire your straight forward honesty, and your polite style certainly engenders respect.


---

ways that were, for me, unavoidably going to be singing his praises would be inapropriate here.

I certainly hope my input can be valuable to others besides myself. Thank you for your encouragement and endorsement, Gerry.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:21:47 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I disagree, Carlos - me too
Message:
But Gerry, Carlos really is not a gameplayer or a timewaster. He is as honest as the day he was born and I always enjoy talking to him.

Carlos, as far as I'm concerned you are completely welcome. You are refreshingly uncynical and sincere. I stopped posting over on LG because I felt that I had nothing to contribute. Criticism of M and K on LG as far as I'm concerned is bad manners.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 21:27:59 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, you can contribute on LG without
Message:
But Gerry, Carlos really is not a gameplayer or a timewaster. He is as honest as the day he was born and I always enjoy talking to him.

Carlos, as far as I'm concerned you are completely welcome. You are refreshingly uncynical and sincere. I stopped posting over on LG because I felt that I had nothing to contribute. Criticism of M and K on LG as far as I'm concerned is bad manners.


---

dissing M just as I can contribute here without promoting him, if you care to do so. No question of bad manners then; and I, for one, will miss you if you don't come back.

Thank you for your kind words and endorsment, too. I'll try and desrve them.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Why do premies post on Expremie Forum?
Message:
Thanks for bringing that post forward. I think David's candid and etremely honest comments are refreshing.

His comments, however, are strongly based on his personal feeling about M, the man, and friend whose crib he visits. That's okay. But it has nothing to do with the perpetual fraud of his MASTER-ship and exclusive dissipation of the Hindu memditation techniques.

This is what it all comes down to at the moment. it is not about not knowing how to let go of the past, but presenting evidence of the past in light of M's consistent and persistant denial.

He owes apologies for everyone who received techniques, devoted their lives, killed themselves, got hurt by members of organization, wasted their youth, retarded their career, and impotententalized their sexuality.

This was a cruel hoax to perpetuate.

How can you forgive someone who has not apologized? He just makes execuses. I believe David loves M has a man and Maharaji is very lucky to have redeeming qualities. He is very lucky to have a sincere, honest, and personally forgiving friend who may be the perfect person to help him through this exposure.

But David, if you are reading this, M has not stopped. Many premies still believe in the Maharaji as God-singularity existing as both inner and outer in form.

Maharaji asked them for their lives and the premies don't even get his phone number. They still call him MASTER. M, the stage M, is not honest about K or himself. He relies on the premies to relay the 'truth' of his master-devotee relationship. Why would people spend their rent (let alone retirement funds) to travel thousands of miles to see him as a figure head for a couple of hours. Why? Why visit a Hindu opportunist unless you had underlying belief system of him being the bridge to this so-called connection. Connection to what?

Maharaji is saying 'intellectually arresting' comments and the premies are cheering. He could say 'dogshit' and they'd have the same experience. They project 'You are my master, how blessed I am to be in your presence' onto him. And he knows it! And he does nothing to stop it. Why should David A. have to come here and explain that it was all a concept. Of course it was a concept.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:31:41 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: You answered your own question
Message:
Richard you asked me why I would stop posting because more premies are coming here. At the end of your post to david Andersen you said: ''Thanks again for that David but, at least for now, you are the ONLY (my emphasis) premie willing to discuss his experiences and beliefs openly. I welcome more open dialogue as well. - RR''

Yes, David was sane and courteous. Most of the current premie posters are anonymous and/or nasty and superficial. I prefer to keep positive company that is open, loving and sincere.

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 01:57:40 (EDT)
From: Yes of course
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: you do Pat, like that special person
Message:
you became using the HomeBuild browser??

Oh what tangled web we weave

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Date: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 08:54:01 (EDT)
From: CAT!
Email: None
To: Yes of course
Subject: David Whitla [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:26:34 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Wrong crux
Message:
David sounds very similiar to any other well spoken and sincere member of what most people would consider a fringe group at best and probably a cult. I personally find nothing in his post which is either compelling or convincing.

Rawat's a saint, the devotees are fucked up worms who have 'made tons of mistakes thinking they are serving M.' Ho hum. Where's the 'rich dialogue' in that?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:56 (EDT)
From: SF
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It's like any newsgroup
Message:
meaning who the hell knows why they post here?

Can you imagine going over to a Right to Choose group and posting the opposite view?
My guess there is a mix:
Sincere premies who want to explain their side are the minority but they have come along a few times (I think).
Then there are the cases with nothing better to do who like to get a reaction. Or perhaps worse, their delusions cause them to think they can actually shut us up, one by one if not as a group.
And finally, I have to agree with you there are so many more things to do. I am happy I have met you, and all the San Francisco and area ex's .

I am forever thankful to Nige, Jim, Katie, Joe, Ellen.. the list goes on for the help they gave me when I first came to these sites.
Don't any of you underestimate the power of the pages you have put up on the EPO site or the power of your voice. They changed my life for the better in so many ways.

And the stubborn Irish side to me will not go away simply because I am hissed at from time to time. We have a unique breed of reptile (frog?) here called a horned toad. It hisses and spits blood when it feels threatened but is basically harmless otherwise.

Like you, I have become involved in other things that are interesting and time consuming and the natural result has been less time here.
L,
Selene

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:01:56 (EDT)
From: ps from SF (selene)
Email: None
To: SF
Subject: the here that I meant
Message:
when I said we had the horned toads living 'here' was my actual back yard, not 'here' as on the pages. Why on earth I felt the need to explain that is odd but understandable I suppose.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:00:08 (EDT)
From: Gray Davis
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It's the cheese (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:24:23 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey Dave.
Message:
Is there some fucked-up premie creep posting under several names in Abi's thread below?

May I request the asshole be banned?

Anth the reasonable

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:18:20 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: If I may be more forthcoming...:)
Message:
Just a stupid pun. Nothing to add.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 18:41:23 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hey Nigel
Message:
Nice one!

Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:51:00 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Ian Dury? I thought you were dead..
Message:
Hit me with your rhythm stick, indeed...

Nige (there ain't 'arf been some clever bastards...lucky bleeders, lucky bleeders)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:52:53 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey Dave. I third that.
Message:
I'm sick of trolls, anonymous or not.

--f

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:42:48 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Hey Dave - I second that
Message:
''Jean-Michel Dettmers'' et al is obviously malicious.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:19 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a little entertainment
Message:
Hi everyone,

here are a the lyrics from a song I made during a stay at the programm in Rome 1990. It is somehow expressing my state of mind at that time and I'm glad, that I did not express false and stupid praises for MJ. Here it goes:

there are days where you feel strong
and there are days where you feel weak
..........everybody has a hungry heart

love can make you feel so good
love can hurt you deep.....
tears of passion rolling down my cheeks

hi Christine Belange, you came from France
maybe tomorrow it will rain
hi Marie Elaine, you came from Spain
maybe tomorrow you will see

have you seen Rick, I've heard he stoned
he feels alone and does not know, which way to go
and here I sit, all by myself
and I rejoice, in the wind of my soul

for a moment I was shocked
I thought I've lost the summer
no, I don't need an umbrella
to shelter me from rain ..no I don't

people came from Africa
were dancing in a pizza-bar
but the Pope said
no music on sunday...no music on sunday

hi my friend I'm surprised
you travell round the world
without any Visa, any creditcard
hi my friend sleep in my bed
I'll sleep on the floor
cause the nights
are still too cold outside in Rome

have you seen Deborah
she eats no meat
she's still in prison
but...she smile so sweet
but...she smiles so sweet.....pling pling...end

just for my friends out there in the cyberspace who don't care about my broken english

ciao ......have a good time ..everyone......wolfie

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:47:22 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Wolfie, what was the rawat kids video like? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:01:56 (EDT)
From: crabby Horse }(
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mr. D.
Message:
It's really hard to read the messages when you open a thread because you have centered everything. Can't tell who is bumping who. Can you align messages to the left so the order or responce will be seen,

yours,

Crabby Horse

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:59:32 (EDT)
From: Mr D
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: crabby Horse }(
Subject: Re: Mr. D.
Message:
I just tried it and can't see any difference. Threads just run down on the the left instead of centre. I don't know what you mean at al.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:08:21 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mr D
Subject: Re: Mr. D.
Message:
Dave,

With all the posts' headers being centred and of different lengths, it's not possible, when viewing the thread while reading a message, to see which posts are responses to which posts. Try it with a long thread, and compare with AG.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:05:41 (EDT)
From: Crabby Horse }(
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: yah
Message:
Click the first post by PatC above, scroll down and looks at the way the post appear. Looks like shit. In the Html code, the whole table [which where everything is] is centred, yah? Take the Center tag off, yah?[ put don't ask for help is the whole think is fucked up, yah?]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:53:44 (EDT)
From: David Andersen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: See you guys later....
Message:
I'm grateful for the input and the stimulation; I've learned a lot and gone through a lot, and am clearer than ever re how I feel, what my bottom line is
---
and I'm off for a while
---
I've been robbing Peter to pay Paul, timewise, to both observe and post here
---
and I realize how incredibly dedicated some of you guys are, time-wise...it blows my mind.

Anyway, my best to you. I tried to speak from my heart, and act honorably and not speak past my experience. And definitely, I had my own agenda
---
in part,to provide an alternative voice for the casual viewer....take good care of yourselves. DA

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:56:01 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: The story of David A's late 70's music tape
Message:
David recorded an album using money from Steve Sordoni (I heard it cost 100 thousand) and frankly it is very good. Especially for the time, and it was a big hit amongst the asram premies that had it.
Our very own lord heard it and said, 'of course you cant release it'
and it was never released.
The lord DID allow him to release that song, 'can I give my heart to you' and the lord commented on it saying 'that song says 'can I' and
guru maharaji says yes and you say can I and guru maharaji says yes and...' you may recall that.
With that familiar -jeeze the premies aint as sharp as the lord wants- kind of comment.

His tape is quite good!

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:51:24 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: David Andersen
Subject: Re: See you guys later....
Message:
Of course you spoke from your HEART David. That's what I like about you. Maharaji is very lucky to have you as a friend.

But as a good friend David you need to tell them their is a problem which is festering and it won't go away and he needs to come clean. That is what a real 'good' friend will do. And I think you are the man for the job.

M is still allowing the Master/Devotee relationship to perpetuate and he is talking straight about Knowledge and the techniques.

M has to be told that the press will be contacted and his denial will hurt him and his family. The kids still have their whole adulthood ahead of them. Ask him nicely to retire, David. Ask him even nicer to apologize. Then the forgiveness can begin. How can you forgive someone who doesn't apologize? How can you forgive someone who is perpetuating the same deception, meaning the truth about Knowledge and the techniques.

Take care!

You are welcome to email at anytime: see above

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:55:41 (EDT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Nice knowing you.Some A's+Q's
Message:
Hey David-

Sorry to see you go, but I do realize how it can get time consuming for you, especially since you had so many different people asking you questions, and you, like Erica, were considerate enough to answer each one of them.

I'd have to give you an 'A' on your willingness to post under your own name, in a civil fashion, respond to all posts, and to do it in a way that fostered real dialog, not just useless flame (and blame) throwing...thanks.

I'll answer your questions briefly, as it seems that you don't want to spend a lot more time here.

1)Did you ever feel love for M?

Yes.
However,due to many occurrences (and EPO info as well as M's website info)I have come to reassess much of that.
Some was real,but a lot was projection, exaggeration,magical thinking,manipulation, etc.

I can't love a person I don't respect.
I don't respect him, nor do I believe that the 'warm fuzzy maharaji' on stage is anything like the man is in the rest of his life.
I've come to see the 'stage presence' as just that.

2)Do you still practice K?
I'm not sure what the current definition of 'practice' is.

I can and do get some value from the 4 techniques.
I also get value from practicing yoga and other techniques which make me feel better.
I was attending the videos regularly until I just couldn't take the hypocrisy that I saw coming from M anymore.
I now look at the 'video experience' that goes on in communities more as a sort of 'self hypnosis' and 'fan club' experience.
I think that new people generally never come back after one or two intro events because they also sense something like that, but many times don't share that with their premie friends who brought them.

Participation? Well, the local 'church ladies' pretty much showed me how unattractive, wierd and distasteful you can make something.
I came to realize that by 'participating' (formerly service)I was actually going against certain principles of honesty and integrity that I hold, and choose to hold in my life.
Participating, without being allowed to talk honestly, would be a negative thing for me, as well as the community.

Hmmm...you tell me Dave....I guess that makes me maybe a 'D-' premie, if we stretch the limits a bit?....I'm curious what you would say....I remember you as a loose type of guy (one of those wierd musician types-just kidding)who didn't seem to be a 'church lady', so how would you rate it?

3)What, exactly is the 'other side' you have so much distaste for?

I think that's pretty much outlined in the first letter I wrote to EV-I think there were 9 points I asked about.
Most of it has to do with the fact that M lied to us about many things, and portrayed himself as 'Lord' in the 70's, and now tries to say that he never did. (you know the story)

Also,the degenerate lifestyle he lived, while portraying himself as a holy, enlightened being who was 'always in god-consciousness'(his words).
I think he presents quite a different version of himself now,and rather than 'level' with us about his own personal journey and evolution (which would probably be quite interesting and acually spark some interest and rapport with his students), he hides the past and says that it doesn't matter. I disagree.

4)What are the 'actions and attitudes'you have PERSONALLY witnessed that have caused your loss of respect?

Many things, but here's one or two PERSONAL ones:

-watching him on the Atlanta propagation video actually put the blame for all of the 'Lord' concepts on the Indian mahatmas, when it was HIM who gave the satsangs with the concepts in them.(mahatmas and Indian premies did contribute, but he sure did as well. But he doesn't seem to want to mention that.)
(These old satsangs verify this.)
This refusal to take responsibility for his actions causes a loss of respect for the man.

-M PERSONALLY told me, when I asked what I might do for him a few years ago,to show videos of him to new people and premies and 'have some fun' with it.
So,I show the videos.(this is in the letter)
However, M knows about all the wierd baggage he has, and also that it is on the internet.
He never warns anyone about this, but instead sends us out to 'spread the word', without telling us of the possible backlash against it.
Believe me, I felt like a fool when I found out, and that's when I stopped showing the videos.
I was embarrassed both personally and professionally by this, and this causes a lack of respect for the man.
My letter to EV about this was replied to in the time honored 'go meditate, brother' fashion.

-I know certain people, who I trust implicitly, that were PERSONALLY at many things in which m acted out in the ways that have been outlined.(These are people I believe, not flaky,hateful people spreading false rumors.)

-Watching him at recent programs try to marginalize his critics by saying that are always about 5% people who are unjustifiably angry or 'out there'.
The message he gives is that they are just whiners or emotionally imbalanced or angry people with no reason to be so.(EV puts this message out as well)

-Many things that you don't have to PERSONALLY see that he did, because they are verifiable.
Example: Receiving awards from politicians for pulling young people out of the drug culture, while getting drunk and stoned regularly himself.
Dancing around in a crown and mala while now claiming that he never wanted to be looked at as a 'messianic figure' or leader.
Claiming that he never said that he was the lord, or god-incarnate.

Time to end this thing, Dave...

I think it comes down to this:

If you look at m as 'Lord', he can do no wrong.
You will not crically look at him.
If something is wrong, or you feel something uncomfortable about the whole thing, it's YOUR fault, NOT m's.
Things like hypocrisy and lack of responsibility and lying are just downplayed, because they don't really mattter, and m is 'human' just like we all are.
I agree, he is human, just like all of us.
So why can't he talk honestly and deal with the stuff he has created, like most of us do?

On the other hand, if you look at him as a man (I agree, not your everyday 'regular guy'), there is much to accounted for.
I look at him in this way.
I always have.
His refusal to deal with these things will continue to bother him, embarrass and hurt his students, and cause a steady erosion of faith and support in him and his work.

Jim Sander

PS-The main reason I left the 'fold' was that I just couldn't be part of a lie anymore.
I felt sleazy being part of it, and it felt cultish and wierd.
My life is incredibly wonderful since I had the honesty to look at this stuff and act on it.

I do, however, realize you feel differently.
Fine with me.
But do any of the points in my letter to EV strike anything in you?
Just curious.
Best wishes...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:13:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: My answers to similar questions
Message:
David,

Thanks again for your respectful approach to posting here - refreshing indeed. Following is my follow up post from below.

Richard

You asked Richard: why did you stop practicing K? Did you ever feel joy when practicing? Did you ever feel love, real love, for M? Truly curious. -DA

Good questions that I don't recall being asked of me on the forum before. I received K in 1972, went Montrose Guru Puja and India Hans Jayanti that year. Moved into the ashram in Tallahassee in 1973 and was brought to Denver that year to design collateral for Millenium 73 in Houston. (BTW: below you commented to Salam that when GMJ saw the propane blue flame throne he shit. Actually, according to Bob Mishler, He reached for the bottle and got hammered. But I digress.) I helped design the pubs (Divine Times, Aind It Is Divine and Élan Vital) until 1979. Did lots of service both direct and indirect in Miami.

I stopped practicing K in about 1986 after practicing daily since 1972. During a K review in Greenleaf, FL. review M said essentially 'You know, you don't have to practice K.' He probably meant it as a cute remark but it shot through me like a spear in my solar plexus. It occurred to me that I had been practing K religiously and not really enjoying it or the programs with M. I had been doing quite a lot of personal growth work and cathartic psychological / physical work that resulted in me having more aliveness and self confidence. At that point, M's clever remark seemed arrogant at best and he inadvertantly deprogrammed me on the spot. I was ready for a reason to reclaim my life and the truth struck home. I quit practicing K within a week and stopped for 7 years.

Flash forward to a K review in Vancouver, BC in about 1993. Curiosity drew me to that event and I found the energy at the event quite calm and I enjoyed seeing K in a new light w/o all the old baggage. The whole Master thing bothered me but still I practiced for a bit but never really got back into it. I went to Long Beach a few times and enjoyed seeing old friends and emersing myself in the nostalgia of a community I once loved. But quite frankly, I had a very difficult time with M's display of arrogance and the obvious worship that went on. I thought those days had past. M said that was all in the past but every video, every song, every trinket in the Divine Mall and especially the way M presented himself screamed 'Be Devoted To Me.' So I realized that M&K were no longer a path/experience/whatever that I wanted to follow.

Yes I felt joy when practicing K. Yes I felt deep, surrendered love for M and for Prem Pal Singh Rawat for that matter. Once I woke up to the reality that the source of love and pain was within me and that M was primarily interested in self aggrandizement and self enrichment, it was time to move on and 'enjoy my life'. I am not embittered or feel that I was ripped off. I took my devotion to GMJ seriously and benefitted as far as it went. I grew up.

You said: That's the crux, actually, of why the forum is ultimately exes' own worst enemy: the denial of an essential, bedrock validity to the lives of the people who practice K and love M.

Well that is certainly a glib pronouncement considering you are one of only a small handfull of premies to even tell their story and maybe one of two to use their real name. Erika (your sister?) was the other if memory serves me well. A richer dialogue would be welcome for me as well since my primary purpose on the forums has been to discover more about how I came to believe in M&K and why he continues to foster dependence and devotion among his followers.

One last comment David. You describe a relationship with M and his family that many PWK's would die for. I know I would have when my world revolved around M's every syllabel. But you must realize that you are quite unique in that experience and, for whatever M's reasons, he has chosen to only show you his genteel side.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:59 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: A question for either JS or DA
Message:
Is David Andersen the singer who has long gray hair in a ponytail, who has been frequently on stage with Maharaji recently? (If so, I think I understand his pro-Rawat attitude a little better).
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 14:14:01 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: My psychoanalysis of D.A.
Message:
I have seen David Andersen on stage with Rawat. He was being very blissed out (can I still use that term?) David was so giddy that Rawat gave him a momentarily stern look, but then smiled approvingly.

I think that David has some of his family members involved, he very much likes and admires all of Rawat's immediate family, and he gets a real kick out of being so close to the action. It would be hard for him to give up his status and his enjoyable relationships with so many nice and interesting people. Yes, D.A. has much more of his own personal life involved with the scene than most premies ever do.

In addition, the practice of meditation can be quite soothing if you go about it without too much expectations, and festivals and programs must be quite a treat for the privileged ones. There really is nothing but personal satisfaction for D.A. in the practice of Knowledge so why get picky about issues, yuck. I'm sure he has been quite horrified that ex-premies are trying to rock the boat. He has come out and admitted that he doesn't really know the answers about Maharaji's identity or anything about enlightenment and the universe and such, but he just loves Mr. Rawat. It's kind of like being a really big fan of somebody, and getting to be with that person some times. I really don't think it's much more than that.

I suppose my speculations would really rub him the wrong way if D.A. were still reading here. Why I am so mean? Why do I want to burst anybody's bubble, if they are enjoying the ride? Why don't I just walk away and mind my own business? And the answer is... you know, if there were only David Andersens around I would probably just say 'live and let live.' But unfortunately, that's not the whole story. New, gullible people are being told that they can't go home without the Master, and that Rawat is that Master. What utter bullshit. And that is the reason.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 16:43:29 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: My psychoanalysis of D.A.
Message:
I couldn't agree with you more. If M does quit flying around the world on his golden bird with his DARSHAN than his past has no choice but to catch up with them.

Most premies don't KNOW Maharaji or RAWAT. It's easy to look cool when you're idolized. You have to do much. Breathe, smile politely, past the dubie instead of talking into it like it's a microphone. David's a musician. He has a groovy time w/Rawat.

It's also easy to look cool when you're a frigin multi-millionaire. Expensive toys twinkle and attract us little human critters.

If the BigHead retires, than what?

You're only as good as your last DARSHAN, in M's world.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:36:16 (EDT)
From: JS
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes Way, that's DA
Message:
aa
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:29:52 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: David Andersen
Subject: Bye to D.A.
Message:
David Andersen,

Thanks for dropping by. As you now know, anything you say can erupt into a debate, with a lot of different people jumping in with their perspectives. That can understandably wear a newcomer out, but that is also one of the reasons why this forum is interesting. We keep each other vigilant against easy expressions that are not authentic or careful enough. When premies come here, it is an opportunity to get rid of premiespeak and to carefully examine all our cherished concepts. (And believe me, despite Rawat's teaching against concepts, his premies have plenty).

If you had had the time and energy to stick around a little longer, I think we could have eventually come to some mutual understanding. I think your perspective is good to have here, not only to provide an alternative view for the casual reader, but to provide a tension that brings out the essence of what we are struggling with. And I would like to say that what we are struggling with is not just Rawat and his peccadillos, but some basic and universal human concerns.

I feel a little disappointed that I was never able to understand your perspective. You insisted that you follow Maharaji out of an inexplicable love that you have for him. Such a love does not really need defending, but since we challenge it, you defend it by saying what a sweet and kind man he is. But to me, this is not in question, nor is it the point. I want to know why you follow Maharaji the Master, not why you really like Mr. Rawat the person. I'm sure Mr. Rawat is quite interesting to be around, to say the least. But you never got around to answering my question about the journey toward infinity and do you still seek to change your basic consciousness. I myself see no reason to follow Maharaji or any other master unless one is disastified with his own consciousness and seeks to go to that place supposedly deep, deep, deep within where the finite meets the infinite. I don't understand premies who downplay that journey when Maharaji speaks of it fairly regularly.

One thing that concerns me is the possibility that you have posted here before under a different name. If that is true, I must tell you that I think that it is very unfair and dishonorable for you to have done that without letting us know the earlier name. If I knew in advance that you were 'Turner,' for example, or 'Mr. Williams', I would never have bothered to make the posts to you that I did post. I'm not accusing you of being anyone else, because I have no idea if that was the case or not.

In any case, thank you for whatever honest input you have made to the discussion. There are many premies who are interested only in throwing stones at us, so to speak, and to argue with us no matter what we say. If you have a geneuine interest in reaching a common understanding, then please come back any time you feel like it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 02:20:32 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: visual health
Message:
Who chose the colors for the print and background, the Marquis de Sade? It hurts my eyes to look at the beige background and the blue letters for very long. Anyone else feeling it, too?

In the interest of everyone's eyesight, I respectfully suggest that the powers that be here do some research on what's healthy for the eyes regarding color combinations.

Sandy in the sky with eyestrain

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 23:21:46 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Sandy
Subject: Are you the Sandy who was in the ashram
Message:
in Puerto Rico after Millenium? If so, please eMail me, especially if you know anything about what became of Elisha Perez, or how I could get in touch with any of the other 5 who were there with me and you (if you are that Sandy).
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:50:56 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Who else doesn't like this background colour???
Message:
Do you want the old custard back again as was on F5? If you don't like this background colour (which is 'wheat') please give your own preference or suggestion either in Hex or English. But if you do like this colour, please say so.

As an alternative, how about the colour on the webmaster's note?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:05:29 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Custard! Easy on eye, & for continuity w/ EPO [nt]
Message:
yowza
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:39:06 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best
Message:
That combination is supposed to be the most restful for the eyes. It is basically black on whiye but with the black ratchetted down a few notches and the white tinted with ivory to remove the glare. Although some have the opinion that it should be chocolate brown on ivory. No one disputes ivory as the best background for text. A couple of shades lighter than your current background.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 15:26:24 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A word from a web expert
Message:
Here is a web expert who does dispute ivory as best background color. David Siegal discusses background colors as well as link colors etc. Fascinating for us graphic designer types and hopefully useful in this discussion. Basically he says it is best to use an extremely light shade (he likes Minty Green which I mis-numbered before - should be # EEFFFA). The eyes begins to 'read' the lighter shade as white but the lighter shade is less harsh on the eyes than white. He discusses several ideal colors and pros/cons. (Man, I feel like Woody Allen hauling out Marshall McCluen).

Here's David:dsiegal.com/tips/wonk2/background.html

His main site is a hoot, too. dsiegal.com

Richard
[ dsiegal.com ]

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:24:47 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: great link for web designers
Message:
Siegal prefers mint green which is pleasant but I think the whole point of his argument about backgrounds for text is that OFF white is better than white as the monitor is backlit unlike paper. I have used mint green, pale pink, soft blue and faint yellow effectively with text on several sites with black, charcoal or drak brown text. But I have also used pale grey however it only works with colored text which is not suitable for aforum.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:16:50 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, Pat, and note also...
Message:
...screen-design research began long before the web. One reason I think Windows - and its most popular package Word - swept all rivals like Lotus Freelance out of the game was their switching to a simple black text on white background after all those hideous gaudy word-processing packages of the 'eighties.

Definitely prefer vanilla to spearmint, too.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:56:16 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Charcoal grey on Ivory is the best - YES!
Message:
Yes Pat, you are right. I have seen this before and it looks really good.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:34:11 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I thought you and I were not going to post anymore
Message:
Oh well so much for that. Best wishes to you and Moley.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 17:06:32 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: PatC
Subject: I never said that, but you did (several times)
Message:
Took a peek at your restaurant pic. Cool-looking place and v. interesting cuisine. Love the fact you can write such detailed menu notes in an informal style with none of the stuffiness, snobbery and 'assume-you-know-everything-already-if-you-are-one-of-us' you get in the UK in so-called gourmet dining places. Hope to look in there one day. Maybe me, Moley, you, Chuck, Marianne, Joe and anyone else in San Fran... (you did say you CAN cater for more than six, given sufficient warning.)

My/our quitting forum V was about Jim's banning. Jim has since been unbanned and I have been in email contact with JHB and understand now his situation at the time. (No love lost, I don't think...) And our post of the other day re. Amnesty etc. was not a signing-off, although many here seemed to read it that way.

It is funny how our motivations change so rapidly from day-to-day that one minute you are thinking 'I have had enough of this' and the next your are going 'God, I love this place - interesting discussions - fascinating people....'

But, like you, Pat, my conscience is telling me to spend less time here, make better use of my time, and maybe tread more lightly when I do post here. I realise I may have upset some good people with things I have posted in the past, without ever meaning to. My problem - if I have a problem - is I have never needed the ex-premie forum, having exited the cult so long before the internet arrived. Hence, I might sometimes fail to recognise that same need in anonymous posters whose stance from the outset is a hostile one, and to whom I respond in kind. But, then again, I never claimed to be a saint, so why should I pretend to be one now? Hmm, tricky area.. I think I will ask a psychologist.

Best to you and Chuck..

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:46:41 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB)
Message:
I misused the expression in relation to JHB. 'No love lost' usually means you never liked the guy to start with, so what the hell? - which is the exact opposite to what I meant, if you know what I mean...
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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 13:03:55 (EDT)
From: JHBB)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: 'no love lost...' (JHB)
Message:
I knew that - I thought it was quite funny when I read it! BTW looks like we're going to have to be very carful with parenthesesb here!
B)

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:46:57 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Yes, I say it at least once a week
Message:
I am trying to rewrite my cookbook and another book about South Africa and therefore trying to limit my reading and posting here. But then you and Moley reappear and I'm hooked again. I just hope Jim doesn't come back or else I will be back to my old addiction.

As for the psychologically troubled premie anonymice - I'm afraid I am allergic to them. More and more they are beginning to remind me of Scientologists and ESTers I have known. In fact many of my real life premie friends also remind me of those. As I've said before I am an agnostic christian and cannot stomach cold, sarcastic and insincere game-playing. I'm too moralistic and too much a believer in kindness.

Hopefully one day we will have a mini Latvian night when you make it to the cool, grey city of love

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:07:57 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Well if San Fran is cool and grey...
Message:
God help you if you ever come to Liverpool. (And be sure to wear a flower in your hair...)

The only Liverpool Latvian do so far was me, hamzen and loaf. I also had separate pub meets here with various individual exes, but according to Anth's rules, when there's only two of you that isn't a Latvian, it's a date. And regarding one such occasion, at least, he was bloody well right :):):):):):):)

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 07:47:22 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Latvian Date
Message:
But surely if you have a drink with a real Latvian it can be called a Latvian do, or at least a Latvian date?

John the been to Liverpool and SF and knows which is grey:-)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:29:38 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Herb Caen, the deceased bard
Message:
of San Francisco coined the phrase ''cool, grey city of love'' and also said it was like living inside a pearl. He also called it ''Baghdad by the Bay.''

We had an unfortunate two months of heat this summer but are back to cool fog and grey skies and laughing at tourists from Minnesota in shorts with blue goose-bumps.

Well, by that definition, I guess Chuck, Andy and I are having a Latvian Night every night.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:42:08 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Custard Custard ! Give us Custard!! nt
Message:
d
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:07:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Minty green - seriously
Message:
David,

BACKGROUND COLOR: According to web research, Minty Green (CCFFCC) is the easiest on the eyes. Barring that, I would prefer white 'paper'.

VIEW ALL: I also would like 'View All' as the default. I constantly have to hit that button to view all the threads. As at FV, this one is beginning to move quickly in many directions.

FONT: Is it possible for the default font to be San Serif (Ariel, etc)? The current Serif is more difficult to read.

BEST OF: Are these threads being archived? I would be willing to help create a *Best Of* - JM may be doing this already as on F5. I could also help with that JM.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:38:10 (EDT)
From: Admin Assistant
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Minty green - seriously
Message:
'Best of' posts and archives will continue to be stored on EPO. You can help J-M as before by drawing 'Best of' candidates to his attention.

Colors? Admin assistants are color blind:)

AA

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:25:01 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Minty green - seriously
Message:
Have to agree with Richard here, although I'm not a font expert.

I think view all should be the default. Even if I am in view all, if I post, it defaults back to view less.

bests, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:06:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: Who else doesn't like this background colour?
Message:
I like it. Sandy has been doin to much eye squeezin.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:13:39 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dave
Subject: Bring back the custard!
Message:
This 'wheat' looks a nasty pink on my monitor. Aside from the colour - which hurts my eyes too - it also causes confusion between F6 and AG - when you flip back and forth between forums you can easily forget where you are. Better to match the EPO colours, even though this is now a separate site, IMNAAHO.

The 'collapse' feature is great, as is the 'search messages'. I also like the 'edit message' option for correcting typos etc. Please keep all these. Ta.

But would it be possibly to have 'view all' as the default, rather than 99 messages?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 14:33:07 (EDT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, make View All the Default.
Message:
And let's try minty green if research shows...
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:37:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Collapse, edit, search YES [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:42:11 (EDT)
From: Cybercop DI 2
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: check this out Cat and LG crew
Message:
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; DIL0001021)

well well fucking well

Chief Inspector, we have a closed case.
Final suspect in the can.
Our DI's were right all along, patience always pays.

'OK, put it on the notice board in red.

and prepare the report for the CP.'

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 16:49:09 (EDT)
From: MrT
Email: None
To: Cybercop DI 2
Subject: the crew flounders, heh!
Message:
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows NT 5.0; DIL0001021)

well well fucking well

Chief Inspector, we have a closed case.
Final suspect in the can.
Our DI's were right all along, patience always pays.

'OK, put it on the notice board in red.

and prepare the report for the CP.'


---

check this out Cat and LG crew

Yous' all at sea, man. Better synchronise, innit?
[ is funny, eh? ]

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:46:27 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Is this wheat ?- it looks like mushroom from here
Message:
Not sure about the webmaster's note either - is it a colour???
Personally not into anything with hints of a tint of yellow in it. Would suggest blue - but perhaps too reminiscent of a darshan tunnel.Purple and green (but not lime) go well together. (IMO BTIHNoTaste) Shall I consult a Dulux colour chart and get back to you?
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:42:32 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Bring back the custard!
Message:
I don't think I could bear to bring back the custard, Nigel. I do want this place to look different from ex-premie.org. You're seeing different colours to what I am. This forum is a warm wheat color, light browny yellow, fawn, while AG is brown with a hint of orange and much darker than this.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:26:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Black on gray?
Message:
How about black on gray? That seem to work pretty well when you had it on AG. At least for me.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:29:20 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And since you asked
Message:
This wheat color works just fine for me, and it looks like that on my monitor, too. But I'd hate to see Sandy and Nigel go blind, so maybe something should be done (like maybe they should buy glasses, snicker).
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:18:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Ok, well maybe try this...
Message:
Black type, arial font, white background (colour element provided by emoticoms). Non-controversial and very easy to read - even for the colour-blind and those people with dodgy monitors (like EV? ha-ha!).
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:52:55 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loaf@superheros.as
To: Dave
Subject: Custard my Arse !
Message:
all this talk of custard is upsetting my foppish gay interior design lifestyle. I think we need professionals in here - we all know how colo(U)r wll affect your 'energy' - I mean the lilac room is a very girly place (and great for it) - but obviously the yellow of F5 is a no-go area... can we manage a plaid, or stripes ?

Any chance of a pattern so bold it makes reading the posts difficult ?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 07:57:53 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Loaf
Subject: Lightened it now
Message:
I think a nice McDonald tartan would look good and make premies' posts more interesting. Until then, I've changed the color slightly and made a lighter shade which is #F7DFBB

What do you think?

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:24:15 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: David
Subject: EN -Lightened it now
Message:
I would make the unread threads the MOST VIVID blue.. because it will encourage people to read everything, and by their so doing, make their room more restful.

Can we have tea and coffee facilities too, and perhaps some nice comfy sofas ?

I have some nice silk prints which would hang beautifully....

Loaf
Throne Builder (retired)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 08:31:32 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: Lightened it now
Message:
It blends well wtih my monitor. But it's the blue writing, it's so luminous... what about forest green writing instead (the colour of Golden Virginia baccy pouches, one of which I am holding up to screen now and it looks good. IMO.)... turning to bright orange (or possibly purple) when read.
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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 10:34:31 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: I don't get blue writing
Message:
I see black on the background color. Depending upon which browser you use, you may be able to change the type-face color using tools or preferences.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 20:45:19 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Neither do I
Message:
I think they meant blue links, which they are. It's impossible to set the default to all 700 posts but if people read the Forum Help, they'll see that if you bookmark the forum when it's showing all 700 posts, all 700 posts will show whenever you click on your bookmark to go to the forum.

There's a lot there above in this thread to digest!

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Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 22:52:39 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
I hope this wasn't posted previously but I find this tripe hilarious:

Goober:

He said that it was easy to understand and discuss the trivial things in life, but that when it comes to the discussion about this life. most people don't even want to consider it. Yet if we really want to start to exist, we must understand the importance of the breath and the value of life.

He recounted the death of a wealthy friend, who did not have Knowledge. 'All his wealth, all of his achievements, none of them could help him to breathe.'

We know, he said, that we come into the world empty-handed, but do we know that when the master comes we don't have to leave empty-handed.

The problem is that we feel that we come into the world to make a profit, but actually when we leave, we don't even leave with what we came with. However, it is not as if there isn't a reminder. It is not, though, in the mind, it is in the heart.

The heart always longs for fulfillment; it is always calling out for it.

If we can give embrace that which is not dependant on time, which neither comes nor goes, then we can free ourselves from the grasp of death.

From birth, we are actually in the grasp of death, he said, but we forget this. 'That is why there is Knowledge, so you can feel your originality again. If you connect to that experience, your don't have to worry about the clutches of death.'

'All my words would be empty - no matter how wonderful they may sound - without Knowledge. It would be just like pouring grain into a mill and getting no flour out.'

Now wasn't that profound? No wonder he doesn't want to give any interviews, he's a wooden dummy who gets a positive response only from his followers.

I can't believe I ever fell for this stuff.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 04:18:58 (EDT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
I hope this wasn't posted previously but I find this tripe hilarious:

Goober:

He said that it was easy to understand and discuss the trivial things in life, but that when it comes to the discussion about this life. most people don't even want to consider it. Yet if we really want to start to exist, we must understand the importance of the breath and the value of life.

He recounted the death of a wealthy friend, who did not have Knowledge. 'All his wealth, all of his achievements, none of them could help him to breathe.'

We know, he said, that we come into the world empty-handed, but do we know that when the master comes we don't have to leave empty-handed.

The problem is that we feel that we come into the world to make a profit, but actually when we leave, we don't even leave with what we came with. However, it is not as if there isn't a reminder. It is not, though, in the mind, it is in the heart.

The heart always longs for fulfillment; it is always calling out for it.

If we can give embrace that which is not dependant on time, which neither comes nor goes, then we can free ourselves from the grasp of death.

From birth, we are actually in the grasp of death, he said, but we forget this. 'That is why there is Knowledge, so you can feel your originality again. If you connect to that experience, your don't have to worry about the clutches of death.'

'All my words would be empty - no matter how wonderful they may sound - without Knowledge. It would be just like pouring grain into a mill and getting no flour out.'

Now wasn't that profound? No wonder he doesn't want to give any interviews, he's a wooden dummy who gets a positive response only from his followers.

I can't believe I ever fell for this stuff.


---

my mum had k and died because she couldn't breathe- She realised at the end he was useless and put his photo face down in the drawer and none of her last words were about 'HIM!' - they were words of love to her family who loves her and who she REALISED at the end were the core of her life- the breath thing is a real joke after witnessing that. The breath is good- no argument... but m is another story...

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 01:35:28 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
The 'process' of losing oneself becoming a guru worshiper is so gradual though that by the time one have become a sucker, a beggar, a needy person and later one cannot remember were one came from.

Premies believe that they are having an individual experience just because they cannot allow themeselves to judge their own belief system; they are not allowed to think for themselves.They need daddy to tell them what life is about it; they cannot find it on their own.

His 'good' moronic persuasion techniques put me for 26 long years on the disadvantage of 'he knows, I don't' and keept me always needy enough, weak enough to have to come for more. More of what? Well, nothing, but he pretends it is something, he convinces you that it is something, he persuades you oveer and over that without him you CANNOT CROSS TO 'THE OTHER SIDE'. Like he had crossed it...

He keeps you confused enough that you think you are somewhere and in reality, you have lost YOUR SELF. The self dissappeared. The shine trip is fake because underneath all what stands is a pathetic being like the master. There is no freedom being a devote.

A good quote:

'Followers of religion are always looking for inner peace, but they lose their inner peace in searching for it.'

The mental ensalada he creates is good for bussiness: Breath in and out, quick, don't think and there you have it; you have become a smiling vegetable. He has fun, you don't. Gobber sucks! And he so ugly, gosh, what was i thinking...

Hi Gerry. :)

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 21:22:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
Hi Silvia:

Well are you ever full of surprises! I love your postscript.

The mental ensalada he creates is good for bussiness: Breath in and out, quick, don't think and there you have it; you have become a smiling vegetable.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 01:23:20 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
Are you making fun of me? hahhahaha No, I was not a smiling vegetable but came close to be one. I scaped!

I had 'too much mind'. I maintained a circle of friends who were not premies since I receive K and with whom I would have never discussed my secret life, but simply mentioned lightly, read, I did felt embarrassed of 'that' part of me, dependant in a fat guru who I saw over the years become richer and richer with our personal efforts. Deep inside I knew something was wrong and couldn't dare to question 'HIM', the supreme power in person...(BULLSHIT MAHARAJI: YOU ARE SCAM, you bussiness man, opresssor, party pooper!, but, I had my own mind and many didn't like it. 'Hitler' Smith wanted me out so bad and he was right: I didn't belong to such a stupid, silly, moronic group of people to whom what is left is even as little as a wish to be at least LOOKED BY HIM ONCE...pathetic.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 17:00:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Hey listen to this happy crappy
Message:
Hi Silvia,

No I wasn't make fun of you and I was having fun with you.

About this part:
I had my own mind and many didn't like it. 'Hitler' Smith wanted me out so bad and he was right: I didn't belong to such a stupid, silly, moronic group of people to whom what is left is even as little as a wish to be at least LOOKED BY HIM ONCE...pathetic.

I remember David Smith, what a fuckin piece of work HE was. Shit!

I never bought into the good-premie behaiour either. It got in the way of my darshan. Hell, if you bought the whole enchanalada why you would not chase darshan instead.

The premies who caught my attention and subsequently escorted me to the knowledge session were also somewhat rebellious although they LOOOOOVED M something big and had lots of personal interaction to him. So I fell in those footsteps. Heck my boss had his own money, started his own business, had a squeeze, chased darshan, came and went where he wanted, while living in the BroadRipple.

When I was around other premies (doing service) and M would appear, they would act this 'weird' way, never expressing their personalities or sticking their hand out to say Hi or just talking casually was considered rude or unpremie like. Didn't stop me. I thought, 'sorry suckers, more darshan for me'.

What a flakey history we have. ycchhh cults, ycchhh....

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:20:34 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: mental ensalada, yes!
Message:
Nice post,Silvia. Here's something I found on the net you might find funny:

SOME DETAILS REGARDING SATSANG QUALITY:
DIALOGUE BETWEEN CHARLES SCHUMAN (QUESTIONER) AND PETROS:

> Tell me, now, if you would. Do you find that
> it is the guru, or the crowd in it's expectations
> that create those great vibes?

It's the gestalt created when the guru and the group get together. A strong central presence can get everyone on the same wavelength. Without it, it's just a tea-party!

> If the guru is just faking it, in your
> estimation, how does it effect the vibes?

Most people in the group probably couldn't tell, not having subtle enough discernment or not enough experience in satsangs with other teachers. They will follow the lead of everyone else, however. A few people with more discernment might sense that something isn't quite right, especially if the teacher speaks at length. But such people may decide not to say anything and just go along for the ride anyway and chalk it up to experience.

For instance, I just attended another Maharaji video tonight, with about ten people attending. There was nothing wrong with what Maharaji said or the way he said it, and everyone was very silent and attentive. But I still sense something amiss about this particular group, but I can't put it into words yet.

> Does less talk make for a better satsang?

Surely.

> Your willingness to create your own satsang,
> just to get your fix, was one damned straight
> honest disclosure. Does the guru grok the
> vibes as much as those attending?

I think the guru is usually the most addicted of the bunch! See, he needs the fix so bad, he's become a 'dealer' (dealer of bliss?) in order to get it wholesale.

Much of this was validated for me in a recent satsang with Ram Tzu, who basically agreed with me that satsang can be a form of attachment replacing other attachments on one's journey.

Mind you this is from a person who is not a premie or an ex-premie, but a 'disinterested outsider.' Speaks volumes about what a fake Rawat really is.

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Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:15:06 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Addicted to Bliss
Message:
That is good; where did you get it from? I like this part:

I think the guru is usually the most addicted of the bunch! See, he needs the fix so bad, he's become a 'dealer' (dealer of bliss?) in order to get it wholesale.

Well, we know gurushi well; he is addicted to many aspects of his 'masterhood' and MONEY and POWER over others give him a good FIX everytime, also. I think bliss is his least concern, for what I witnessed being in the cult for 26 years. He likes the rock & roll and as much toys as possible, but tell his devotees material things don't bring happiness: What a hipocrat he is, sorrounded by all he needs, even FREE servants, 24 hours a day. Every single detail of what he wants is taken care of. I could be comfortable more often too if I was in his position. I detest his falshood and lies and would be so rewarding if I ever hear him saying he lied to us...it won't happen; just a wish...

Definetly a person may learn to think a guru is necesary to know how to live life but ultimetly, is that person's personal, individual effort to understand themselves what will lead her/him to learn how to live. 'To live is easy, to know how to live is not' but is not impossible as he tells people that ONLY a guru knows how. Following him is a ticket for mental confusion. The guru's perceptions are not applicable for each individual because the circumstances are different, and a premie in the process applying what they 'learn' from gurushi become very confused, strange individuals, strange to themselves.

GURUS ARE BAD FOR PEOPLE'S MENTAL HEALTH.

There is no easy fix for personal unsatisfaction but only through self honesty and good priciples one can lead a better life, be in charge of one's own life.

Silvia, against ANY addiction. Well, except one: MUSIC. hahahhaha

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