Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 02, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Dermot -:- Pack it in, Anth.. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:20:44 (EDT)
__ Forum Führer ~) -:- Anth is blocked -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:03:12 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- oe even..chuckle and b .. :) NT -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:22:26 (EDT)

gerry the polite version -:- Did anyone speak politely to Bjorn about this???? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 12:32:27 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Distasteful behaviour -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 02:17:44 (EDT)
__ David -:- What happened to the impolite version? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 20:41:37 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: What happened to the impolite version? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:05:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ David -:- I just want a straight answer -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:29:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- great satire! nt -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 22:25:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Lol (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:23:16 (EDT)

Salam -:- K-lite training -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:02:13 (EDT)
__ such -:- premies 1-on-1 spread Kn. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:26:04 (EDT)
__ __ Ulf -:- Great post , nt, -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:56:30 (EDT)

la-ex -:- Quick poll: -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:17:03 (EDT)
__ such -:- Wizard of Oz -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:02:53 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- premies:Dorothy + buddies -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 17:42:24 (EDT)

David -:- Are you stiff? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:27:59 (EDT)
__ such -:- are u stiff - viagra? haha [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:04:02 (EDT)

lax-ex -:- how about talking to.... -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 20:47:29 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- About getting an answer for mr Schultz -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:37:51 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re:What are you fuckin talking about -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:11:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Do I owe you something, Deborah? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:26:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You owe US something, Bjorn? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:52:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- I don't owe US a thing -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:27:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I don't owe US a thing -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:37:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: I don't owe US a thing -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:59:08 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: how about talking to.... -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 04:35:01 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- No, that's not going to help -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:17:20 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- 'Guru Whisperer' - good one! [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 22:15:41 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sorry, la-ex, I read you wrong there -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:54:24 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- interesting proposition [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:00:27 (EDT)

gerry -:- Goober's watch now in production? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:36:17 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: Goober's watch now in production? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 04:33:08 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- I thought 'Time' was an illusion. (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:10:06 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I've already got a watch , sans motif [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:59:46 (EDT)

Jim -:- What happened to all the premies? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 14:48:55 (EDT)
__ Catweasel -:- Re: What happened to all the premies? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:30:10 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- What an asshole you are Catweasal -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:49:26 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- 2ND time ...FUCK OFF WEASELSHIT -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 09:38:24 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Cat, you're all at sea. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:13:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dr Sigmund Catweasel -:- More Prozac for Anth! -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 08:38:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Cat, I'm recommending you to the Vatican. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 12:29:41 (EDT)
__ Sandy -:- Re: What happened to all the premies? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 01:04:10 (EDT)
__ __ David -:- Is this better, sir? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:10:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Re: Is this better, sir? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:48:05 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:22:50 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Bjorn -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:10:17 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sorry, I don't agree [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- A challenge for Jim part 2 -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:55:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:09:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Because Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:21:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't ever bother me again, then -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:07:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Is that a threat, Jim? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 03:51:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Is that a threat, Jim? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:53:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- It is a free world, Cynthia.. and -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:48:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Is that a threat, Jim? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:46:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Janet -:- Could you please explain in simple words -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:53:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- God, this is boring -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 13:55:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Sorry Above post is from Bjørn (notJanet) nt -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:55:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- My mistake. That wasn't NT -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:33:38 (EDT)
__ Carlos -:- Jim, maybe we saw your 'reasonable' -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:38:37 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I've got just one question for you -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:08:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carlos -:- Jerry, it'd be rude of me, IMO, to post -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 04:43:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks but no thanks -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 17:21:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hi Carlos, you have a good idea -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 16:20:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carlos -:- Jerry, it would be rude of me, IMO, to go -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 03:56:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I disagree -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:19:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: I disagree -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 20:52:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- premies don't want to play is the POINT [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:08:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fine. That's your opinion -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:05:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Fine. That's your opinion -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 23:21:02 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- What? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:52:05 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Not so hard to understand Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:29:45 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Not so hard to understand Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:33:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:47:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:21:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Here's a thought, ladies -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:33:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Are you sure, Gerry? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:04:40 (EDT)

Jim -:- Open letter to Maharaji, EV, Pia, Glasser et al. -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 14:18:24 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- A funny thing happened when I tried to email m -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 14:29:10 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: A funny thing happened when I tried to email m -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:21:27 (EDT)

DepressedaboutMJ -:- 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 12:49:27 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- EV is in deep financial shit. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:24:35 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- You're full of it Anthe -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:33:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Not true mate. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 13:23:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Not true mate. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:19:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Here's the source! -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 17:54:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Great work John! Is it on EPO? -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 13:05:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Thank G ! -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 17:20:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Thanks John T ! -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:13:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Steve -:- well here in Portugal -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:16:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Joey -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:03:49 (EDT)
__ __ Catweasel -:- Anth is in deep financial shit. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 08:44:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Correct Cat. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 13:14:03 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:56:55 (EDT)
__ Been There -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:38:35 (EDT)
__ __ wolfie -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:34:35 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- Been Tehere, I think you're still there -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:26:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Been There -:- Re: To Joey -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 01:55:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: To Been There -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 16:16:28 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:18:48 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 12:59:14 (EDT)
__ __ secret agent -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:47:01 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:42:26 (EDT)

Bjørn E -:- (repost from LG); Wouldn't it be fair, Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 06:41:55 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Great Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:15:07 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- So? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:29:49 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Sure, Bjorn. Why not? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:16:32 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E -:- Because -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:07:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:12:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- The proof is in the pudding - -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:23:44 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- moral relativism -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:13:54 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: moral relativism -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 12:04:18 (EDT)

SincereDupe -:- Maharaji NEED to be Embarrassed at Thousand Oaks?? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 05:49:43 (EDT)
__ such -:- Somebody -- Yeah,Go for it!! [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:01:03 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Maharaji NEEDS to be Embarrassed EVERYWHERE -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:49:25 (EDT)
__ David -:- Thanks for your reaction -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 07:47:09 (EDT)

JHB -:- Thousand Oaks and Dollars -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 03:43:35 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Thousand Oaks and Dollars -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:20:03 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Coming Broadcasts -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:11:18 (EDT)

Steve Quint -:- Hello From The Wasteland -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 03:21:00 (EDT)
__ John Clare -:- I am -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:50:46 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- Please take Good care of yourself! -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:39:05 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Steve -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 07:22:35 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- In praise of Abi -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:29:35 (EDT)
__ bill -:- In praise of independence -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:00:57 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- In praise of Bill (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:22:35 (EDT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- WHY is the truth no longer the truth -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:19:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Passing Through -:- WHY today is no longer today -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:28:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- C'mon PT-change is one thing, how about honesty? -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:14:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- People change.PT was 'Turner' ( honest? - dunno)nt -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 17:24:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- C'mon la ex-how about listening -:- Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 00:50:07 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- great post, beautifully put :)nt -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:18:14 (EDT)
__ __ PatC b) -:- Re: In praise of independence -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 04:11:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: In praise of independence -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:58:02 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- yes! [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:23:09 (EDT)

Jim -:- A possible premie nominee -- Kurt Andersen -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 22:20:08 (EDT)
__ such -:- blood = thicker than water. nyet -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:20:18 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- Kurt could be good,or Raja Ji? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 23:26:47 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Kurt? Ok. Raja Ji? Ix - nay -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:25:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Cos I'm afraid of being called EX-LAX.. -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:01:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Lax-ex -:- I like Pia,Charles,EV,m's neighbors -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 20:41:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not, silly, not LAX-EX, LAX simplicitur! -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:46:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That'd only happen if you go back -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:25:18 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Kurt could be good,or Raja Ji? -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:06:27 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:20:44 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pack it in, Anth..
Message:
How come all your posts either make me (a) chucle or (b) laugh.

This was my day to feel angry about cult bullshit and what do you do ? Chill me out and make me laugh...

I don't know...some people !

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:03:12 (EDT)
From: Forum Führer ~)
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Anth is blocked
Message:
for using ze obscene languages und being drunk while on ze forum. Ha, und you thought little Johnny JHB was strict.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:22:26 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: oe even..chuckle and b .. :) NT
Message:
zz
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 12:32:27 (EDT)
From: gerry the polite version
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Did anyone speak politely to Bjorn about this????
Message:
Bjorn was sexually molested by a sixteen year old when Bjorn was ten. Bjorn says this is "not a crime" in Norway because of the ages involved. I am irritated by this statement and I don't think it's accurate.

Here in the US, this teenage offender would be prosecuted if found out. It's definitely a crime here and I can't imagine that it would be that much different in Norway.

Bjorn, what did your perpetrator do to you? I want the specifics. Was there penetration, digital or genital?

What? It's none of my business you say? These are very uncomfortable questions? Very inappropriate questions? My, imagine that.

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 02:17:44 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: gerry the polite version
Subject: Distasteful behaviour
Message:
As usual Gerry you lie and twist words and behave extremely distateful. Actually you dont deserve an answer.
In Norway there is something called 'criminal lower age limit' That limit is 16.
What I wrote to Abi since she asked, is that my thereaphist when I told her about the incident, said it is not a 'crime', She said such things happen a lot, call it juventile experimental sex done by an insecure person or whatever. The incident had a big negative influence in my life for many years. When I read about things here, it came back to my memory. Call that pathetic, but I am only human.
I did not write this person was 16, I wrote he was 15 or 16. He most probably was 15. I did not ask to see his ID.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 20:41:37 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: gerry the polite version
Subject: What happened to the impolite version?
Message:
Did you change it yourself? I thought it was impossible to change headings. Please explain.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:05:45 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: What happened to the impolite version?
Message:
Did you change it yourself? I thought it was impossible to change headings. Please explain.


---

It 'evolved.'

I never wrote it, I didn't say it and besides that was then and this is now. Get a life, Dave, sheesh, move on.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:29:50 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: I just want a straight answer
Message:
How did you change the heading? That's all I want to know. Email me the answer if you want. I'm just curious.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 22:25:10 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: David
Subject: great satire! nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:23:16 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Lol (nt)
Message:
zzz
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:02:13 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: K-lite training
Message:
Premies in Australia are being trained to 'talk about Knowlege' in a 'smart' way. A weekend seminar where they watch a dvd and 'practice' on each other. This is because in the past premies were stupid and said stupid things about it.

So there.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:26:04 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: premies 1-on-1 spread Kn.
Message:
Not m. The premies told their friends and the people they met -- that's how propagation really happened. no training and seminars required.

just as it's the premies who set up all the programs and pay for everything. m. tries to reap any and all credit, but all he did was open his big mouth and take all the credti for the thousands of lil' people he has absolutely dissed over the years.

seeing/hearing m. actually turned off more people than not. I can't begin to tell you how many people I brought to satsang, m. events, and later to vid programs who were very interested in learning meditation, until they actually heard him and his master bs megalomania and puppet-maker concepts.

Maybe premies should have taught HIM how to give satsang -- as an equal with no bs guru concepts whatsoever - not sitting on a stupid throne wearing the crown costume of the Living Lord in the flesh.

Hey, premies: this is simply the latest m. personality cult org propaganda/propagation push -- which is just more bs indocrination and just using you some more to empower Rawrat and suck in new recruits to worship him and give him money. It has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. Meditation is separate from him. Your life and experience of breath is totally separate from him.

What a bleepin' pathetic joke. m. and EV are actually caving in to ex-premies' wisdom now! how the phony deluded mighty have fallen...

If EVI and m. have to train da massa's 'dogs' [read Shri Hans] at doggie obedience school, then something is dreadfully wrong in the state of Premmark.

Whatever happened to spontaneity. Now, it's k-lite programmed android-ville. and Amaroo = benign Jonestown -- pass the kool-aid...

geez -- what a dying cult, grasping at straws now.

Peace and lentils to everyone who has been infected somehow by the cult,

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:56:30 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Great post , nt,
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:17:03 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Quick poll:
Message:
I was just wondering which fable you think best describes mr. rawat as we have known him...

1-Satgurus Clothes (emporers clothes)

2-The little guru who cried wolf (the little boy who cried wolf)

3-All of the above

4-None of the above...here's my choice....

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:02:53 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Wizard of Oz
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 17:42:24 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: premies:Dorothy + buddies
Message:
+ da people of oz. now, Dorothy and pals [scarecrow, tinman, lion, and Toto] saw the charade going on behind the curtain, and are now ex-premies who have come to the rescue!

m. + cult apparatus = da wicked witch-wizard schizo church-cult package [Jeckyll and Hyde]. EV = registered church = not a religion since 1972.

go figure... the oz we're talkin' about here sure ain't Kansas. [more like watching looney tunes -- wily coyote]

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:27:59 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Are you stiff?
Message:
Well no need to be. At least not on this forum. You can be as stiff as you like in the privacy of your own home though. There's no restrictions on putting pics into posts so be all loose and let it hang out.

If you need help with your stiffness then please read the Forum help on the blue rectangle.
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:04:02 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: David
Subject: are u stiff - viagra? haha [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 20:47:29 (EDT)
From: lax-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: how about talking to....
Message:
(this was suggested by me down below)
For the premies:
The guy who ran the San Yisidro meeeting with m and the advisors?
Wasn't his name Schutz?

OR, how about a letter to him asking him for advice on how to bring maharaji to the table, so to speak, to help clean up the mess he has created through his controlled climate of fear.
It seems that Mr. Schutz had great insight into that aspect of the cult, and warned m that he needed to be responsible for his control over premies...

The letter would be interesting, as well as a possible response or suggestion from Mr. Schutz...

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:37:51 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: lax-ex
Subject: About getting an answer for mr Schultz
Message:
I think that unlike Detmers, Mr Schultz has moral, professional ethic codes and he is obliged to follow. You see, M was HIS client, So you will not get an answer from him.
And I also think that M turned down mr Schultz due to the fact, that I think M disagreed with him.
It is a free world, isn't it?
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:11:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re:What are you fuckin talking about
Message:
Bjorn:

State your credientials, right now? WHo are you? How come youclaim to know anything about Michael Dettmers? Tell me about ALL your service gigs, right now.

Tell me HOW you know M's relationship with anybody, including your own.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:26:45 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Do I owe you something, Deborah?
Message:
I once knew Dettmers just a bit, and I knew Misheler, but that is noene of your business.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:52:43 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: You owe US something, Bjorn?
Message:
Fuck you Bjorn.

This is what you said in above post:

I think that unlike Detmers, Mr Schultz has moral, professional ethic codes and he is obliged to follow.

How do you know about Mr. Dettmers moral, professional ethic codes. How do qualify to tell us that? You think all you have to do is say that, and BINGO!!! it's true. Explain how your encounter gives you specialized insight. Did Maha call you up and explain it all to you? And if Maha called you up and tattled on MD, what did maha tell you about MD? Tell us all about it. Back up your statements.

Why do you premies have to disqualify MD's confessions? Is it because his confessions SCARE you the most? Is it because you fear the unknown and unknowable and believing him will shatter that little guru-and-me world of yours?

You have seen his behaviour here. Is he ranting all over the fora? NO. Does he help people who come here and get shocked? YES. Does he have a lot to say? YOU BET.

One day you premies are going to wish you caught-on earlier and that you had key people around to sort out Maha'a Cult-inflected and seriously manipulative mission. You'll be left to bleed on your own. Foolish assholes, all of you.

Oh excuse me, here you go Bjorn:

You see, M was HIS client, So you will not get an answer from him.
And I also think that M turned down mr Schultz due to the fact, that I think M disagreed with him.

Yahhhh thuuunk!

It is a free world, isn't it?

Uhh! No it's NOT.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:27:53 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I don't owe US a thing
Message:
I am witnessing things. From that I draw my conclusion, I even try the mission impossible to use my tiny brain.

Re Dettmers, I tried to get replies from him via e-mails. He did not respond. I asked him some questions that he was unable to answer, and stated somthing I don't think is the truth.

I used to have the greatest respect for Dettmers and I really liked him as a person. He used to be polite, honest (I thought) and he seemed to have a lot of integrity. My respect for him, is not what it was and that is not because he is an ex-premie. In fact I respect some ex-premies.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:37:32 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: I don't owe US a thing
Message:
Why do you think anybody owes YOU anything?

Do you not see the contradiction? The double standard?

You are screaming for respect, you say you have it, you demonstrate just the oopposite; but lift your eyes up and tell yourself what you read in the SUBJECT line of this post.

What does that tell ya about your attitude?

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:59:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: I don't owe US a thing
Message:
I deliberately misunderstood; US means United States of America. But still I have respect for some of the ex-premise - not for all. And nobdy owes me a thing.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 04:35:01 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: lax-ex
Subject: Re: how about talking to....
Message:
ettmers arranged that weekend seminar. contact him for who the guy was and how he got ahold of him. i agree that his having already met MJ is a huge edge.
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:17:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: lax-ex
Subject: No, that's not going to help
Message:
What do you think this is? Maharaji's a cowardly cult leader who'd rather give up his mistress than talk to us. This isn't a love fest, LAX, it's a challenge. As I understood Dettmers' account, Schutz didn't get past square one with Maharaji before he bolted. You can ask him whatever but I fail to see that he's anything of a 'Guru Whisperer.'

Look, it's entirely likely that Maharaji will not only not respond but may even direct Pia and the rest to stonewall me as well. If that happens, as far as I'm concerned, we win by default. Don't you see it that way? I'm sure that anyone -- OUTSDIDE the cult, of course -- who happens to see that the challenge went unanswered will think so as well. So what do we get out of this? Well, if the premies do participate, we get some interesting feedback from the outside world. Not casual, off-the-cuff remarks but, I'd hope, something a little deeper. Who knows? Maybe Maharaji will be vindicated, maybe not. But this, at least, is a way to measure the 'reasonableness' quotient in some of the things he and EV say about themselves.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 22:15:41 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Guru Whisperer' - good one! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:54:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, la-ex, I read you wrong there
Message:
Just took another look. You were suggesting Schutz as a premie candidate. Okay, I see. Hm, maybe a good idea were it not for the fact that he gets paid for 'consulting' and I can't imagine him ever agreeing to publically judge a former client without that client's consent.

Sorry for the misread, though.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:00:27 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: lax-ex
Subject: interesting proposition [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:36:17 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Goober's watch now in production?
Message:
I wonder if it comes with a swan motif?
[ The Filament's Bright Idea? ]
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 04:33:08 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Goober's watch now in production?
Message:
no, this isnt the one. rawat's invention/patent calls for a device that can plug into an onboard computer, calculates your position on earth by GPS satellite tracking and tells you exactly where you are and what time it is by local convention anywhere in the world for the asking.

if you want to understand it in detail,
click on this and peruse the patent application at your leisure.

but i WILL lay odds rawat sees this atomic watch site and wants one for himself, while he's waiting for his brainchild to be made. wouldn't surprise me at all.
[ rawat's watch patent on file ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:10:06 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I thought 'Time' was an illusion. (nt)
Message:
tic toc
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:59:46 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I've already got a watch , sans motif [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 14:48:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What happened to all the premies?
Message:
As I just mentioned on LG, a week ago all the premies were high-fiving each other like crazy, celebrating their collective wisdom at our expense (forget about the fact that that wisdom ranges from m being just a regular guy to the Lord of the Universe!).

Then I propose a mature, reasonable way to confront the issues between us and suddenly the premies start to clam up.

Hm, hard to understand what's going on ....

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:30:10 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What happened to all the premies?
Message:
First you need to understand something really basic. That is that most people who have knowledge and are still enjoying it and their lives find you one of the most offensive cretins on the whole of the world wide Web. You rank only slightly lower than the phedophiles and Rock Spiders you choose to defend
Talk to you ? You MF KS! I'd rather chew on broken glass and wash it down with battery acid. It might leave a better taste in my mouth!
Does that answer your questions?
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:49:26 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: What an asshole you are Catweasal
Message:
First you need to understand something really basic. That is that most people who have knowledge and are still enjoying it and their lives find you one of the most offensive cretins on the whole of the world wide Web. You rank only slightly lower than the phedophiles and Rock Spiders you choose to defend
Talk to you ? You MF KS! I'd rather chew on broken glass and wash it down with battery acid. It might leave a better taste in my mouth!
Does that answer your questions?


---

You have no sense of decency, cat-weasal. When logic knocks at the door of your mind, all you have to offer is name-calling and hatred.

You generalize about premies 'enjoying life.' You generalize about all of the individuals here who have already rejected Maharajism because it is a cult.

The cult word scares you so you spew shit all over people.

Go away. You have no balls, just like your Lard!

And if you're a woman, you still have no balls! You're a coward just like goomraji. Goomraji has lost the majority of the premies in the US, Canada, and Europe.

Now, as stated in a thread, (although Maharaji is NOT about money) $45 a pop will cover only 1/2 of the expenses for a program that is DRIVABLE for the goob to attend. But I suppose he'd want to take his helicopter just for fun.

Knowledge is for free. RIGHT!

Go away, pest. You need to enjoy life more. BTW, with all your brave words, hatred, contradictions, what is your true identity?

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 09:38:24 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: 2ND time ...FUCK OFF WEASELSHIT
Message:
enjoying knowledge !!!! hahaha you really are a sad sad sad fucking case.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:13:17 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Cat, you're all at sea.
Message:
You sound like a raving looney, standing up in a wobbly, leaky, rowing boat you've just unhitched from the harbour wall, yelling, 'You are all doomed unless you come aboard the Captain's cruiser and sail away to America with me.'

Don't forget your lifejacket Cat.

Anth, in the air-conditioned hotel, watching through the window, sipping cocktails served by a beautiful atheist.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 08:38:59 (EDT)
From: Dr Sigmund Catweasel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: More Prozac for Anth!
Message:
Have you seen Al Pacino in 'The Devil's Advocate'? Vanity is my favorite.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 12:29:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dr Sigmund Catweasel
Subject: Cat, I'm recommending you to the Vatican.
Message:
I'm going to nominate you for the patron saint of lost causes.

(I haven't seen the movie by the way. While we're on the subject, have you seen 'Mickey Mouse Comes to Town'? It reminded me of 'Satguru Has Come.')

Anth the cartoon catholic.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 01:04:10 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What happened to all the premies?
Message:
Jim,

You know the answer to your own question. In the eyes of premies, the Master can do no wrong, even if he does wrong. If you found your truth, congratulations. Don't expect anyone to see it your way, even if you have all the facts to back it up. Sometimes attitudes are more important than facts. The ones who are totally soaked in are not the ones you need to speak to after all, are they...so why are you wasting your time and energy? Think...as you used to tell me.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:10:52 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Sandy
Subject: Is this better, sir?
Message:
The colours that is, or do you still think I'm the Marques de Sade?
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:48:05 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Re: Is this better, sir?
Message:
What do your own eyes tell you?
It is better for me, thank you very much.
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:22:50 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim
Message:
Wisdom comes often from when someone understands something of importance. Maybe, we can credit you for the wisdom as you make it so incredible clear that the whole dicussion around M & K stinks. Pretty unwise to discuss thing with people of no understanding or to discuss something that cannot be discussed.

Just my 2 cents.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:10:17 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Bjorn
Message:
Jim is not talking about having people judge your feelings. It's not about how good something is or isn't. It's about judging the hard facts. Try understanding. It sounds very like you guys don't trust Maha, yourselves.

If you have confidence in Maha's mission, past and present and future. Then you would have no problem allowing an outsider (of your choosing) to evaluate the hard facts. That's all!

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Sorry, I don't agree [nt]
Message:
What stinks, Bjorn, is a discussion with no clarity. I find that discussions with premies are impossible because premies can't be trusted to abide by logic or the fair meaning of words. That's why I think the panel's a good idea.

If you think it's useless trying to judge Maharaji this way how do you explain the EV FAQ which actually asks you to do exactly that? The FAQ doesn't say just judge him by your experience. It asks you to consider the evidence, irrespective of your experience. What do you say to that?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:55:33 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A challenge for Jim part 2
Message:
You wrote:'I find that discussions with premies are impossible because premies can't be trusted to abide by logic or the fair meaning of words.'
That is just my point Jim, It is impossible to discuss things that cannot in reality be discussed, also because both parties are totally unable to think rational thoughts. A rational thought is clear and totally unbiased. If there is any kind of biased thinking, it becomes illogical IMO: (But acording to you I am stupid, an idiot, moron, unintelligent, having no ability to rational thoughts etc. That is OK.

But then the challenge:
You have posted probably 10 000 posts (think about that)!!! So except for the last week, I challenge you to find one post among them, where your view has been unbiased.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:09:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: What??
Message:
Of course I'm biased. Satisfied?

But why won't you answer MY question about EV's request that you, too, consider the evidence? Go take a look at their FAQs. It's all there. What do you say? Are they wrong to ask you to analyze the evidence and to thereby determine for yourself whether or not EV's a cult? Remember, they don't ask you to rely on your 'experience'. They ask you to consider the exact same kind of evidence our panel could review. Answer this, Bjorn, or leave me alone.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:21:21 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Because Jim
Message:
You accuse about every PWK poster to be stupid and unable to think rational thoughts, and IMO you are sitting in a glasshouse throwing stones.

It is really boring to repeat myself. I couldn't care less if some person(s) considered EV to be a cult. I don't consider myself to be a cultmember, but the issue is of no importance for me. I have enough to try to enjoy the gift of Life.

As to your question: I have not read the FAQ ( I must admit that) but if they have asked the individuals to judge for themself, I find that fair. What you try to do, is to have some experts???? make that jugdement for them. I find that less fair.

BTW do you find all sentences in courts correct???

I have to go to bed. It is late here.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:07:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Don't ever bother me again, then
Message:
You're deceitful, Bjorn. Leave me alone.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 03:51:37 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is that a threat, Jim?
Message:
And could you elaborate on what you mean by 'You're deceitful'.
At least I havn't lied so what do you really mean?

And does that mean that if I ask you some challenges I have planned, you will not reply?

Bjørn E (who still thinks internet is a big sandcase where words are the sand, and someone throws sand, and says 'I will not play with YOU anymore')

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:53:50 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Re: Is that a threat, Jim?
Message:
And could you elaborate on what you mean by 'You're deceitful'.
At least I havn't lied so what do you really mean?

And does that mean that if I ask you some challenges I have planned, you will not reply?

Bjørn E (who still thinks internet is a big sandcase where words are the sand, and someone throws sand, and says 'I will not play with YOU anymore')


---

It was a request, Bjorn. Jim said, 'then leave me alone.'

There's a difference. And if you think the Internet is so useless, you are hereby invited to LEAVE!

Bjorn, get yourself more help. You need it.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:48:58 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It is a free world, Cynthia.. and
Message:
a joke is a joke.

I don't really care what you think. Thinking doesn't change the wheather. And when I need help, I ask for it. To any person who can give me the help I need.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:46:13 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Re: Is that a threat, Jim?
Message:
I see your point, as far as the global sandbox metaphor goes, but i get the essence of Jim's feeling quite clearly.deceit can be detected before the listener can delineate exactly how or where the deceit is occurring.there is something deceitful to the way you speak of your involvements in this.it is tortuous to maintain that something may be a cult for others but not you. there is self deception embedded in a statement that declares such a view.before you refute me, remember--i too went for 27 years of my adult life absolutely relieved and smug that i could see so clearly that all those OTHER poor folks were getting sucked into cults, but I WASN'T. I thought I was slick. I thought I had done my homework. I looked into TM for a year, and read up on sai baba, and reverend moon, and yogi bhajan, and every other group and leader you've heard of. and I felt so smart that I had seen thru all the cults and not been taken in, because in all that contention, I had discerned the one group that was not a cult.you know, Jim has raised an excellent crux to this whole debate. for a moment let's expand the scope of his proposed challenge, and rather than limit it to one for us, one from them, and those two pck a mutual third--let's enlarge the hypothetical panel.let's ponder how many figures could be invited to sit on this panel and hold forth as to why their group is not a cult.let's consider the Hare Krishna's. They will tell you that they are practicing the ancient vedic way of life as revealed in the oldest scriptures on earth. they will tell you that they are merely students of a world-familiar tradition that has been embraced by millions, over the course of thousands of years. they will point out that what they do is no odder than muslims bowing to mecca 5 times a day or shunning certain foods, or wearing the accepted dress as told to them by those who have gone before..and yet one glance at them and common sense tells you they are in a cult!but they maintain they aren't. you speak of a difference between adherent who approach it in cult mentality, and others who can approach the same thing not as cult mentality.ok. I would say the Krishna 'Temple has that clear distinction.If you go to o and observe, you will see that the Indians whob go to the temple comport themselves with dignity and normal bearing. They speak in everyday voices and attitudes. the temple is a minor aspect of their life and what they consider themselves to be. They have normal families, normal businesses, normal relationships with the rest of the world, and don't feel any need to pressure others to be as they are.not cult.the americans, the white kids and hispanics and blacks, by sharp contrast, clearly DO go at it in pure cult telltale behavior. They dress bizarrely for their culture. they don't allow themselves to think about anything that is not in their scripture classes. They try to convert everyone in sight and avooid them otherwise, in a belief that such association will make them impure, unclean, contaminated.that's 'cult'.so on this expanded panel you could have a spokesperson for the Krishna Temple, telling why his way of life is not a cult.you could have the scientologists there, also explaining why their organization is not a cult. they are absolutely certain it isn't, you know. they may have gotten it to be called a church, despite the fact they have zero belief in god or things sacred or holy or spiritual--but, no, they aren't a cult. just ask them.and every spokesperson from every group you could conceivably ask to attend, will maintain that they are not in a cult.there is a deception, a deceit, required, in order to stay in such a belief, especially when shown evidence at odds with the belief.one must first be deceived by the group, then one must deceive oneself, and lasty, one becomes complicit in perpetuating the deception upon others in turn.and we all have built in survival senses that tell us when someone is not telling us the truth. their words don't match their actions don't match their thinking doesn't match their movements don't match their eyes or their tone of voice. we sense falsehood. we can sense when something feels unreal.but we are capable of being fooled.being fooled is not a sin. but the one who calculates to fool us is perpetrating a crime upon our natures, and doing so knowingly and with an ulterior motive.not all cults begin as such deceptions. prabupad probably didn;t set out to make a cult, he probablybelieved uttrly in teaching the vedic way. but his efforts turned into a cult. his specific coloring of the teachings changed it from a pure and honest pursuit to a cult dependent on him.L Ron Hubbard, by contrast, set out from the first to propagate scientolgy as a huge and deliberate joke, which caught on and got way too serious.both men are dead now, and what they started rolls on, both cults, notions that have gone horribly wrong and not what their starters intended in the beginning.reality is greater than any falsehood conceived by man, and will always expose falsehood over time, just with its sheer immensity and presence.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:53:59 (EDT)
From: Janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Could you please explain in simple words
Message:
Janet: I know you are an intelligent womam. My English is not even my second language, so when you dont use periods, commas, capital letters and and use words I dont understand it is not easy for me to grasp what you are saying.
You say; 'I see your point, as far as the global sandbox metaphor goes, but i get the essence of Jim's feeling quite clearly.deceit can be detected before the listener can delineate exactly how or where the deceit is occurring.there is something deceitful to the way you speak of your involvements in this.it is tortuous to maintain that something may be a cult for others but not you. there is self deception embedded in a statement that declares such a view.'

So if you read my posts to Jim in a thread below, and if you could accept the fact that I am not lying, then maybe you could explain why I am deceiteful. I also aks you to consider what I wrote about cults under the name Bongo. If you havent read it, I will repost it.

I would be grateful for an explanation

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 13:55:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Janet
Subject: God, this is boring
Message:
I know, why don't I block all the premies and then they can come back using different names and we can play the game of "Guess that pseudonym".
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:55:13 (EDT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: Sorry Above post is from Bjørn (notJanet) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:33:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My mistake. That wasn't NT
Message:
What stinks, Bjorn, is a discussion with no clarity. I find that discussions with premies are impossible because premies can't be trusted to abide by logic or the fair meaning of words. That's why I think the panel's a good idea.

If you think it's useless trying to judge Maharaji this way how do you explain the EV FAQ which actually asks you to do exactly that? The FAQ doesn't say just judge him by your experience. It asks you to consider the evidence, irrespective of your experience. What do you say to that?


---

I meant to hit 'quote message in reply'

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:38:37 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, maybe we saw your 'reasonable'
Message:
As I just mentioned on LG, a week ago all the premies were high-fiving each other like crazy, celebrating their collective wisdom at our expense (forget about the fact that that wisdom ranges from m being just a regular guy to the Lord of the Universe!).

Then I propose a mature, reasonable way to confront the issues between us and suddenly the premies start to clam up.

Hm, hard to understand what's going on ....


---

way to confront the issues was flawed and served no agenda but yours. The way in which one gets a nuetrally balanced group of appraisers or arbitrators (which you and I know is what the method of picking panel members you proposed was copied from) just doesn't have enough panel members to determine what the 'reasonably informed public' - I think that's the phrase you used - would think; 3 people just isn't enough for a representative, and statistically valid, sample to determine the thinking of ANY group of more than about 25 people.

Since as an attorney and an intelligent and literate person you must have known this, to me it is just one more proof of your willingness to cynically manipulate premies to further your agenda of 'attack' (as you once described the right way to treat us).

Why should we co-operate with furthering your agenda when a 'win' could provide us with no more than entertainment value at best?
And why didn't you describe how your method of choosing panelists is used elsewhere? Were you trying to impress your fellow exes? I don't think you needed to, if that was it. Hell, I'm one of your most vocal critics and I admit you are bright, as well as learned.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:08:04 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: I've got just one question for you
Message:
Carlos,

You've all but said that you believe Maharaji is God in human form. And don't go telling me how we're ALL that. Maharaji makes no such claim, today at least. He even says he never made any such claim, ever. How do you reconcile what you believe about him with what he says about himself? Do you know something about him that he doesn't know? You surely can see where you and he don't see eye to eye on who he is. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

As far as this panel of arbiters goes, I have to agree with you, it's not going to prove anything (sorry, Jim). It will only show what 2 people think about the whole deal. It would be interesting though, if you could find somebody who has no ties with Maharaji, who knows very little about him, to see what they would say over all the evidence provided. Personally, I don't think you can find ANYBODY, including yourself, who would rationally conclude that M is anything but a fraud. That's provided that a rational conclusion is arrived at. And we all know what that is, don't we? I hope.

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 04:43:12 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, it'd be rude of me, IMO, to post
Message:
Carlos,

You've all but said that you believe Maharaji is God in human form. And don't go telling me how we're ALL that. Maharaji makes no such claim, today at least. He even says he never made any such claim, ever. How do you reconcile what you believe about him with what he says about himself? Do you know something about him that he doesn't know? You surely can see where you and he don't see eye to eye on who he is. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

As far as this panel of arbiters goes, I have to agree with you, it's not going to prove anything (sorry, Jim). It will only show what 2 people think about the whole deal. It would be interesting though, if you could find somebody who has no ties with Maharaji, who knows very little about him, to see what they would say over all the evidence provided. Personally, I don't think you can find ANYBODY, including yourself, who would rationally conclude that M is anything but a fraud. That's provided that a rational conclusion is arrived at. And we all know what that is, don't we? I hope.


---

who I feel M is, what I feel his nature is, etc., on F6. And unlike some premies I try to remember I am a guest here, and behave accordingly (something I wish more exes would reciprocate when you folks post on LG). Also, I bet there'd only be a couple of exes who'd give a damn what I feel or believe, let alone why.

But if there are any who would like to share about that kind of stuff, not preach at each other pro or con, but share, human to human, if you have a sound card ansd a mic for your computer, plus speakers or a headset, there is a site, www. PalTalk.com , where up to 50 of us could have a PC to PC live audio conference for free. With a little help from the FA, or someone we might all trust such as PatC, Brian, Katie or gerry, we could probably set it up so folks could participate while maintaining anonymity if they cared to do so. We might be able to log into a conference there anonymously without help; I haven't looked into it in depth yet.

Well, what do you say? want to HEAR what I believe about M, and why I think he's not mad at me for feeling about him the way I do and believing about him what I do, assuming he has any idea about about my feelings and beliefs (which I don't assume)?

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 17:21:40 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Thanks but no thanks
Message:
Carlos,

I'm not asking you to express your beliefs about Maharaji. I already know what they are. You believe he's God in human form. He says he's not. He used to say he was. Yes, it gets confusing. But if you want to remain current as his student, I'd stop thinking of him the way you do. It's not part of the program anymore.

About this idea of your's to have a chat with mikes and soundcards, Im not really interested. Thanks anyway.

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 16:20:35 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: Hi Carlos, you have a good idea
Message:
Hi Carlos,

Yes, I would be interested in discussion using a technological setup which includes sound. That idea is very intriguing. I think it would great to hear people's voices. Like I said to you in a previous post, if you don't know a person's voice you have to make it up in your head. Unfortunately, it's very subjective and limitive. A whole new dimension of communicaition opens up to put your voice with reading words. Good suggestion.

But bro. Explain what you mean by just share human to human and not to have a pro-con discussion. Why the limitations? Be more specific, please.

Idea: how about incorporating that idea with some kind of Debate Panel thing icluding outsiders?

Keep thinking!

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 03:56:04 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, it would be rude of me, IMO, to go
Message:
Carlos,

You've all but said that you believe Maharaji is God in human form. And don't go telling me how we're ALL that. Maharaji makes no such claim, today at least. He even says he never made any such claim, ever. How do you reconcile what you believe about him with what he says about himself? Do you know something about him that he doesn't know? You surely can see where you and he don't see eye to eye on who he is. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

As far as this panel of arbiters goes, I have to agree with you, it's not going to prove anything (sorry, Jim). It will only show what 2 people think about the whole deal. It would be interesting though, if you could find somebody who has no ties with Maharaji, who knows very little about him, to see what they would say over all the evidence provided. Personally, I don't think you can find ANYBODY, including yourself, who would rationally conclude that M is anything but a fraud. That's provided that a rational conclusion is arrived at. And we all know what that is, don't we? I hope.


---

into what I think of M, who he is, what his nature is, etc., on this forum. Unlike some premies I try to respect the purpose of exes having F6 (and I wish more exes would reciprocate when you post over on LG). Further, if you are really interested in how I justify my beliefs to myself, and why I don't feel he's mad at me over themm if he's aware of how I feel, I believe you'd only find two or three exes who'd join you in that interest.

If you are reakky interested, and if you have a micraphone for your computer, a sound card and speakers, there is a free PC to PC chat sevice that allows you to have up to 50 people in a PC to PC audio conference on the net for free, called www.PalTalk.com . I'd be up for setting up such a dialouge situation, maybe with a little help in coordination from FA so that people who are interested but want to remain anonymous could still participate. And if we do this I promise not to preach, just to be open about what I feel and haxe come to believe, and why.
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:19:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I disagree
Message:
Jerry,

The panel won't just show what two people think, anymore than any panel of judges 'just' shows what a few people think. If we assume that the first two nominees take their committment seriously (and hopefully the premies will trust their nominee so as I assume the exes would Beyerstein) and that they will then sincerely pick someone between them that will also be committed to fair, thorough consideration of the evidence, I think that's really something. Again, like I've said, when was the last time anyone outside the cult or any of its membership, past or present, has given more than a passing glance at Maharaji?

True, there's nothing ultimately conclusive in the proposed panel's analysis but it sure beats talking in circles. Or do you expect a fair, honest answer from Carlos?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 20:52:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I disagree
Message:
Jim,

I'm just not so sure that anything's going to come of it. For one thing, I think every premie knows that they can't find anybody that would rationally conclude that Maharaji is anything but a fraud based upon his proclamations of the past compared to what he proclaims today. So, there won't even be an attempt on their part to find such a person. You talk about getting honesty from a premie. Where are you at? Do you think they'll honestly try to find somebody to fulfill the qualifications of an impartial arbiter? Don't make me laugh. Anything, ANYTHING, that smacks of disproving Maharaji's credibility, they will avoid like the plague. See no evil, hear no evil....

And yes, it will only be the opinion of two people, nothing else that comes from this panel. I think you're getting a little slick by comparing them to a panel of judges that speaks for everybody. Just look at the last presidential election in the USA. That panel of judges called the Supreme Court spoke for themselves and how they interpreted the law. A lot of people disagreed with them, just as a lot of people might disagree with the panel you're trying to setup. No panel speaks for anyone but themselves. We can agree or disagree, but all panels speak from their own judgement, not anybody else's. Still, it's an interesting proposal. It would be interesting to see what such a panel concludes. Unfortunately, I don't think premies want to play. Too bad.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:08:25 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: premies don't want to play is the POINT [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:05:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Fine. That's your opinion
Message:
Jerry,

You make it sound as if it's stupid for anyone to ever arbitrate anything. This is how it's done, Jer. Both sides pick arbitrators and away you go. Perfect? No. Better than nothing? You bet.

AND if the premies don't play, I don't know about you, but to me that's pretty damning for them. It shows that they don't have any faith in any of their arguments about the fair interpretation of the evidence. If that's the only point we can make, let's make it.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 23:21:02 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Fine. That's your opinion
Message:
Jim,

There are cases where a ruling on something HAS to take place. Of course then arbitration is necessary. But this is no such case. We don't have two sides here asking for a ruling that both will abide by. All we have here is a challenge to premies to put their case before arbitration. They see no need for it, so they're not going to ask for it. Is it damning to them if they don't play along? Of course it is. It's also par for the course. So, what else is new?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:52:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: What?
Message:
Carlos,

First, I don't know what you're talking about re my pretending there's great originality in this panel idea. I never said that, don't believe it and think it's unimportant anyway. Really, I don't know even what you're talking about.

As for the small numbers, hey fella, courts decide much bigger issues than this with even one judge all the time. This proposal's manageable, Carlos. It's a real and honest way to confront the issues that Maharaji, through EV (via its FAQs) have already asked you to consider! What about that, eh?

You keep talking about how this is all for 'entertainment value' at best. Tell that to Pia, Glasser and Maharaji and EV. Tell it to yourself the next time you argue about the fair interpretation of what Maharaji's said or done, yesterday or today.

Frankly, Carlos, you just look frightened. That's obvious.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:29:45 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not so hard to understand Jim
Message:
On reflection, unless Maharaji wants it to happen it won't happen.

He's their master remember... the premies are completely impotent in such matters.I'm often reminded how so fucking deep that conditioning was. Thank fuck. I now stand alone facing life and death, warts * all !!

I'm beginning to think it's a complete waste of time discussing M/K with premies. I hope I keep my offline premie friends but I'm beginning to feel I'll just have to keep my mouth shut and follow my own way just as i keep my mouth shut to my ma who is a devout catholic.

Sad but true.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:33:56 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Not so hard to understand Jim
Message:
Yes Dermot, I agree with the following:

I'm beginning to think it's a complete waste of time discussing M/K with premies. .

But in response to your statement I'm beginning to feel I'll just have to keep my mouth shut

Keeping your mouth shut is exactly what maha and the premies want us to do. Expose this shit to outsiders is exactly what they don't want us to do.

So the question then is, What shall we do?

I've taken a careful look at the situation and realized I have to bring this public. If EV and maha don't want to communicate, then they can read about themselves in various print. Or watch documentaries about the cults, with their own tactics broadcasted on television.

It's the only solution. Everything else is a waste of time. But the EPO site is very good for people evaluating their current or previous involvement. Perhaps while we're here we could put more attention to that aspect and offer less attention to the reluctant premies.

Why give them that much power?

Does it feel good to know we gave all of our power to the SatGuru?

Than why would it feel good to give it to the premies and the EV-cult promoters? And especially to the BigHead, how good does it feel to let him have his way with us, again? yuuucccckkkkk, bbblllleeehhhh.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:47:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum
Message:
Hi all,

Premies, EV, Charles, Pia and the Honcho Most Highest cannot question whether or not it's a cult.

Black and white thinking is what happens when cult conditioned. If a they agree to anything, they would be conceding there is a question of 'is it a cult or not?'

Too risky. Deep down, some premies must know they'd lose in the debate; the denial is so strong because of the brainfuck by m, et al, and the question cannot even be posed. Way too risky.

They had their fun with us. They reacted. They lost. Period. I agree with Deborah. Worldwide publicity is the only answer. At least a lot of national coverage in the U.S and Europe.

Hell, they couldn't even succeed in making us into a hate group, making Jim the leader by maligning his name and character.

Well, I think that's just fine. Publicity is the best way to go, IMO. I'm not afraid. My real name is out here. Yet, the premies, the gopi old timer, true believers have too much to lose.

So, I'm satisfied that in this 'war' against the Maharajism cult we won the first big battle with the recent backlash.

Personally, I don't plan on keeping my mouth shut, or my keyboard inactive in the near future. A funny thing happened on the way to the forum.

We're still alive and well, getting stronger every day.

Welcome back JIMBO! I missed you a lot.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:21:35 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

Thanks for contributing your opinion. It is the only way to go, now.

No more Mr. or Mrs. Nice Ex? They haven't seen anything, yet.

By the way, I love the movie, 'A funny thing happened on the way to the Forum'. I saw it during a Classics course @ UVic. Hysterical.

Email me if you'd like to talk SHOP. Have a great day!

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:33:52 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Here's a thought, ladies
Message:
Mail a 'promo' package of satsang and some choice guru pics to all Rawat's neigbors.

He'd be the laughingstock of Malibu in one day...

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:04:40 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Are you sure, Gerry?
Message:
Are you sure, Gerry. Malibu worships money and Maha has money and so I don't know if his neighbors give a damn. Maha's constant entourage, and dripping wealth make him a celebrity. But you could be right.

However, sending info to business people the BigHead DEALS with is entireley different. He's the CLIENT to business people.

At DECA, (especially the hangar), Maha was always called the Client. Because the 'hangar' would refurbish executive aircraft, we'd have pilots that owned or piloted the aircraft hang out for weeks or months on end while their aircraft was worked on. It was very important to be 'hush hush' in front of them. Nobody ever knew (well sometimes they found out)who exactly the CLIENT was.

I remember one of the mortal clients asking me out to lunch. My boss told me the guy was going to try and make me cough up the goods on the CLIENT. I went out with the creep for lunch and he persisted for the entire hour. I messed with his head and he picked up the tab.

Keep thinking, I like where you're going with those ideas

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 14:18:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Open letter to Maharaji, EV, Pia, Glasser et al.
Message:
Dear Maharaji, Pia, Charles Glasser, EV and the good folks who run ELK:

It's common knowledge that ex-premies allege that EV is a cult and Maharaji a cult leader. In fact, your various sites have all responded to that criticism, one way or another. Even you, Maharaji, have gingerly talked around the issue on your own website where you make a point of saying that, despite other people's opinions, you never wanted to be seen as a 'figurehead or leader.' Since then, you've all said mcuh more. First, EV grappled with the issue in its own FAQ section, going so far as to suggest its own cult checklist. With the briefest of explanations, EV then applies its criteria to itself and, to no one's surprise, finds that it is not a cult. It then invites readers to undertake their own analysis.

Since then, first Pia, then Glasser, have spoken out even stronger on the issue. It's clear that all of you are seriously troubled by the cult allegations. Who wouldn't be?

This, then, is a good faith challenge to you all to participate in an exercise to fairly resovle the issue. What I am proposing is that a three-person panel be formed from candidates both exes and premies nominate to consider the evidence. My suggestion is that the exes nominate one member, the premies another and that those two panelists then choose a third between them. The only restriction on nominees is that they must be people never actually affiliated with DLM or EV. Outsiders, in other words. The goal, of coruse, is to get fair and reasonably-informed outsiders to analyze matters that, frankly, we all might be a little too close to for ideal objectivity. Both exes and premies have long accused the other side of lack of clarity in this respect. This, then, is an effort to achieve that clarity.

I have taken it upon myself to seek out a nominee for the exes. Dr. Barry Beyerstein is a psychology professor at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver and also a director of CSICOP (the Committe for the Scientific Investigation of Claims Of the Paranormal). He has graciously agreed and there is a general consensus among the exes that he is a suitable nominee for us.

I have also asked the various premies posting online to nominate their own participant but, so far, none have. Perhaps premies feel that it would be presumptuous for them to do so without some 'official' permission from EV or Maharaji. Who knows? Maybe there are other reasons. Whatever the matter, it's time that we all put some joint effort into publically addressing the issue.

Now, remember, this is just one guy's attempt to deal with this problem. Perhaps you have a better one. For example, perhaps you think that the panel, as I've proposed it, is inherently unfair. I've thought it best to leave the process to the panelists themselves, asking only that their deliberations be ultimately publicized so that we can appreciate their reasoning. Again, maybe you have some better ideas. But isn't it time we all met somehow, even if only through this arms-length process, to consider the common issues that concern us?

I'm posting a copy of this letter on both Lifes Great and the ex forum.

Look forward to your sincere and early replies,

Jim Heller

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 14:29:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A funny thing happened when I tried to email m
Message:
I tried to send a copy of this letter to m's site but only got a message saying that the maximun message length was 3200 characters and asking me to 'please be succinct'.

Too funny, huh?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:21:27 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A funny thing happened when I tried to email m
Message:
Jim,

How could his website know whther or not your email was succinct?

I have come this time with all the Power. By my GRACE, I can allow you up to 3200 Characters on my email.

The Ominscient One needs a little more Omnipotence, wouldn't you say?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 12:49:27 (EDT)
From: DepressedaboutMJ
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
I just received an email from Elan Vital concerning the Program in Thousand Oaks. They stated that the requested (minimum)donation to attend the event was $45. They Further stated that:
'This fee covers a little more then 50% of the event costs. Additional contributions are needed and greatly appreciated.'

This doesnt make sense to me.. It seems to me that there will most likely be at least..2,000 people attending. At $45 a head that would be $90,000 going to Mr. Rawat. I figure the cost of renting the Thousand Oaks Civic Arts Plaza for one evening might be $5-10,000 at most. And, as we all know, labor costs for Mr. Rawat are very Inexpensive...Thus its very hard for me to believe Elan Vital is running a LOSS at $45 a head.

Could anyone please help me with this??..what is Mr. Rawa's Real Take (profit or loss) likely to be from this event. Is the statement that $45 a head covers 'a little more than 50% of actual event costs' accurate? Is it an intentional deception? Is it 'Cooking of the Books' accounting?..

Thanks for your help on this...

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:24:35 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: DepressedaboutMJ
Subject: EV is in deep financial shit.
Message:
High depressed,

You're not as depressed as the poor bozos trying to balance the books. (If the columns don't match, multiply the one on the right by the 'Grace' factor and everything will be fine.)

The cult have been suffering a decline in income for the past few years, due mainly to people wising up to what's going on and cancelling their standing orders. (They were told for years it, 'wasn't about money,' so they put this to the test.)

Anyway, it was hoped that the latest cultfest at Amaroo would get the faithfull pouring in and the bank balance healthy. Unfortunately only the 'Chosen fewer than last time,' showed up and they're still paying the bills.

So, if you're a premie, one thing you can be sure of is that you're going to be continually hit for money, until you either die, or leave the cult.

The Captain's ship is sinking, and all the faith in the world won't keep it afloat.

Anth, rescued by a U-boat.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:33:06 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You're full of it Anthe
Message:
The cult have been suffering a decline in income for the past few years, due mainly to people wising up to what's going on and cancelling their standing orders

You don't have one shred of proof to back that up.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 13:23:43 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Not true mate.
Message:
The cult have been suffering a decline in income for the past few years, due mainly to people wising up to what's going on and cancelling their standing orders

You don't have one shred of proof to back that up.


---

I have definite proof.

I personally have persuaded twenty six premies to cancel their standing orders in the past seven weeks.

But don't take my word for it. Write to Glen Whittaker and ask him if the cult finances are doing OK, or does he need another donation?

Rawat spends money much faster than his slaves can wring it out of each other.

And how come you're such an expert on EVs financial state ms anonymous? Care to give us the present bank balance of the cult in the UK, or anywhere else for that matter?

Anth, who feels immense joy every time he persuades a premie to cancel a standing order. It's like 'Grace', only more powerful. Chiseling away at Rawat's income is one of my most satisfying hobbies.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 15:19:39 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Not true mate.
Message:
Anth, before I reply in full to your post please let me assure you that the person writing to you at this moment is indeed none other than yours truly, Joey as in Joey Faywlowicz of Montreal QC, who has been posting here from the days of forum 3. I really don't know where John T got the idea that there are two Joeys, but as far as I can see all the Joey posts in this thread are mine.

Ok, onwards.

You said,

I have definite proof. I personally have persuaded twenty six premies to cancel their standing orders in the past seven weeks.

And I commend you on it Anth , I really do- I just hope you're getting to m's major donors. IMO, the paredo principle probably holds true in this case and 80% percent of the money going to m and EV would come from his top 20% donors (this has been backed up by others posting on the forum). That said, your efforts as commendable as they are may be more than offset by a few of m's millionaires coming through with increases in THEIR donations, 'doing it for the gipper' so to speak, in his time of crisis.

But don't take my word for it. Write to Glen Whittaker and ask him if the cult finances are doing OK, or does he need another donation?

Oh common Anth, pleeease! Do you really expect Glen Whittaker to tell you the truth. These guys always need a pretext to raise money and this is a perfect occasion for them to create a false sense of impending financial doom just when m needs the 'means' and resources to do battle with his enemies. Remember in Nottingham m said that he was in a 'war', a war which he would win even he loses a battle here or there, but the 'war' he would win, because as he put it, he is 'coming from the heart.' Well if there's a war in m's mind ...he needs a war chest. So he can do stuff like drop $70,000 at the drop of a hat buying a full page add in Le Monde to deal with the fallout from the 'Combat' piece.

And how come you're such an expert on EVs financial state ms anonymousCare to give us the present bank balance of the culte for that matter?

I've already answered your first question at the top of this post. Re your second question I'll be glad to submit to to you the following set of figures that I've obtained from EV's Canada registered charity information return for the years 1996 and 1999 . ( I'm currently in the process of obtaining their return for 2000 . It's no big deal...these are easily available from Revenue Canada.)
Now these are quite detailed financial reports but for the sake of my argument that the cult is sucking in money like never before I submit the following.

In 1996 EV Can received a declared total of $438,422 of which official tax receipts were issued for $348,813. In 1999 EV Can received a declared total of $792,101 of which official tax receipts were issued for $577,327.

I'm sorry Anth, but it seems that in canada at least, the cult has almost doubled its sucking of green blood from premies between 96 and 99. We'll see what happens when I get the figures for 2000.

BTW, do you know where these figures John T have been published, that is outside his own site? I'd really like to look at the original document.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 17:54:58 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Here's the source!
Message:
Source: Companies House search on Company/Branch Name of 'Elan Vital Limited', then order reports.

'Companies House' is where all sorts of companies (in the widest sense) registered in England and Wales file their accounts for public inspection.

Sorry for any false alarm about your handle. There has been trouble with a guy posting under other people's names to cause dismay and confusion.
[ More useful page ]

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 13:05:05 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Great work John! Is it on EPO?
Message:
That's useful information, John, and I'm sure there's others who'd join me in thanking you for going to the trouble of getting (and having to pay Company House for) the figures. I'm still waiting for the IRS to reply to my request for EV's exemption document - could be a long wait!

I found the following particularly revelatory: (I hope you don't mind me posting this small excerpt here. Exes - listen up! - there's more at John's own site that's also important, so don't let my edited highlights stop you from checking out the whole document).

ELAN VITAL LIMITED

Results and Dividends
The profit for the financial year (year ended 31 March 2000) after tax and after covenanted donation was £583.

The directors do not propose that any dividend be paid, and recommend that the above amount be credited to reserves.

Review of Business Development
The principal activity of the Company continued to be that of Conference and Convention organisers and general traders.

Turnover for the year was £384,336 (1999 - £528,553).

The directors attribute the decrease in Turnover mainly to the fluctuation in receipts from conferences and travel bookings.

Political and Charitable Contributions
The company is a wholly owned subsidiary of Elan Vital, a registered charity and has covenanted to donate all its profit which would be chargeable to corporation tax to Elan Vital. The donation for the year amounted to £134,109.

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 17:20:48 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thank G !
Message:
It was G, not me, who went to the trouble of getting the gifs of Elan Vital's accounts from Companies House. He offered them on Forum V and I grabbed them the better to illustrate 'Unholy Trinity', to show that there is something going on, it ain't just poems!
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 21:13:22 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thanks John T !
Message:
I've been wanting to see the figures from the UK for a while and I appreciate the link to their source.

So now the question that remains is-why the discrepancy between EV in the UK and EV Canada? Why are revenues on the rise in Canada while they're going down in the UK?

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 14:16:19 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: well here in Portugal
Message:
I just recieved a letter from Elan Vital asking me for money because although the program was a great succes they're financially up shit creek and the registrations just didn't come close to covering cost.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:03:49 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey
Message:
Check the published accounts for Elan Vital UK Profit and Loss figures for 2000 and 1999. I've supplied the link. You will notice that turnover is down from £528,553 in 1999 to £384,336 in 2000. Stocks are up though, a very Bad Sign.

Incidently, there is another Joey posting here, you anonymous shape shifting reptillian deluded premie troll.
[ EV accounts for 2000 ]

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 08:44:26 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth is in deep financial shit.
Message:
That's bullshit Anth.In your dreams!Are you perhaps projecting your own situation worldwide? You Cornish landlocked moon-cusser. Pirate in a big Dress, with big hair (borrowed) over a bald patch!
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 13:14:03 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Correct Cat.
Message:
That's bullshit Anth.In your dreams!Are you perhaps projecting your own situation worldwide? You Cornish landlocked moon-cusser. Pirate in a big Dress, with big hair (borrowed) over a bald patch!


---

You're quite right Cat. Just like the Captain, I am having 'cash-flow' problems.

I'll be giving a talk in the pub tomorrow night for half an hour, for which I'll be requesting a minimum $90.00 donation.

All this money will be spent doing charitable work for the benefit of others. My private yacht, jet, and many mansions are all paid for out of my private business concerns. And anyway, they’re not really mine. I assure you, all your money will go to bringing the knowledge of truth to the weary and the weak.

But what the hell, me and the family gotta eat ain't we Cat.

And whoever told you I had a bald patch was lying. Are you perhaps projecting your own situation worldwide?

Anth the standing orders prefered.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:56:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: DepressedaboutMJ
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
Yes I've been depressed about MJ myself.

Reply to the email, asking them to break down the costs.

$45 is a lot for the premies to pay. Why, to see the guy they dedicated their entire life to. How RUDE!

Premies are convinced that Maha needs money. Doesn't anybody put 2 and 2 together? They see his plane, yacht, extravagant homes, home improvements, $45,000 brthday gifts for the kids, and yet they still say, 'Maha, needs money to come to Thousand Oaks to SEE US. OH, what a wonderful opportunity for US. To SEE HIM'

Shit. This doesn't sound like a cult?

Did you see the plans for his home improvement? How does his oppulent environment promote KNOWLEDGE? The greedy bastard should pick up the expenses, himself. This is proof the premies are addicted to his idol-ship and not to the inner experience.

This guy lives like Bill Gates, only Bill Gates worked for his money.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:38:35 (EDT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: DepressedaboutMJ
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
You're calculations sound good, but your assumption that Maharaji takes ANY profit is flat out wrong. Maharaji takes NO profit from the events. His funds and EV's funds are completely separate. However, EV does cover the costs of M's accommodations for events: suites, travel, etc. which can be high, but since travel in this case is driving, and he doesn't need a suite, how can $45.00 cover only half the costs? That's a mystery.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 11:34:35 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
Hi,

I don't know facts, but I can imagine that the famous 'GUEST SPEAKER' somehow gets payed from EV, this I think still would be legal but the moral aspect is dubious. A non profit organisation can hire someone. The hired-one can make a good deal, specially with non profit organisation. Somewhere there must be the hole were the money runs out. And I think that for those special productions from 'WHADAMAR' (production company of MJ's kids), as education material to devolpe human potential, maybe too much is paid too. According to my phantasie, if I would be his lawyer, somehow I would arrange the moneyflow in this way from the non profit organisation to the Rawats. For sure there is a legal way to have a moneyflow from the none profit organisation to the Rawats, but it would be against morals, because the premies are fooled.

Since I stopped donating money, I feel better. Money, money makes the world go round. If more and more premies would stop donating money, then we maybe could proof the true motivation of MJ and EV. In Mainz MJ spoke about, that he could make a lot of money if he would sell this knowledge. No he does not want this, knowledge is free, but its better and much easier when you can pay 30$ for a smartcard after the knowledgsession. Before people get knowledge, they are anyway asked what kind of participation is possible for them. If you can't offer your time, at least sweety premieji give a little money and we would like to have that little money please regulary every month:
'BE THANKFULL!!!!!!!'

................wolfie

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:26:15 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Been Tehere, I think you're still there
Message:
You're calculations sound good, but your assumption that Maharaji takes ANY profit is flat out wrong. Maharaji takes NO profit from the events. His funds and EV's funds are completely separate.

You speak as some sort of authoritative voice, but there's every reason to believe that you're full of it, especially since you're giving us the official EV bullshit line.

What about EV paying funds to m's various shell companies? What about funds that are received as cash donations and not officially receipted by EV? Are you going to tell us that that money is NOT diverted to m?

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 01:55:16 (EDT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: To Joey
Message:
Joey, I believe the official EV line. If you read Dettmers, he says that it was under his watch that the funds were completely separated (for tax reasons). So the way it works (I think) is that checks, payments or donations to EV stay in the EV coffers for official EV expenditures. Donations or gifts given directly to Maharaji are, of course, his to do with what he wants. All I'm saying is that the 'requested but not mandatory' program administrative fee if made out to EV will stay with EV. If people want to make direct gifts to Maharaji, they can also do that. And it seems to be as people have said before, that the bigger the donations are (in either category), the bigger the special privileges, such as close seats and special invitations. While I'm not on the 'resource' team and don't have first-hand knowledge, I'm quite sure that the official line is true, that EV's funds and Maharaji's personal funds aren't mixed.

Now as for shill corporations, how they're funded, etc., if they are EV subsidiaries they fall into the non-profit status and the same rules apply to them. As for anything other than EV subsidiaries, I have no idea.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 16:16:28 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Re: To Been There
Message:
Joey, I believe the official EV line.

I can see that, and it's interesting how you're using Dettmers postings to back you up.

If you read Dettmers, he says that it was under his watch that the funds were completely separated (for tax reasons). So the way it works (I think) is that checks, payments or donations to EV stay in the EV coffers for official EV expenditures.

OK. But again, what about anonymous cash donations that EV receives in its donation boxes by premies who have been falsely led to believe that there exists an urgent need to cover the costs for an event, when in the fact the costs have been more than covered? Are you telling me that you don't believe such surplus cash would be diverted to m personally? I think you're dreaming if that's the case.

Now as for shill corporations, how they're funded, etc., if they are EV subsidiaries they fall into the non-profit status and the same rules apply to them.

As far as I know the shell companies in question are NOT 'EV subsidiaries' but independant legal entities of their own. Take a look at Premo Marine Corp (that owns m's yacht Serenity) at EPO and it's clear that this a for profit company independent of EV. What makes you think otherwise?

for anything other than EV subsidiaries, I have no idea (emphasis my own)

Yes, I'll accept that.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:18:48 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: DepressedaboutMJ
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
Could anyone please help me with this??..what is Mr. Rawa's Real Take (profit or loss) likely to be from this event. Is the statement that $45 a head covers 'a little more than 50% of actual event costs' accurate? Is it an intentional deception? Is it 'Cooking of the Books' accounting?..

Sounds to me like you're on the right track.
Let's face it, m and his closest accomplices aren't really happy unless they're sucking up as much money as possible from the premies.
Tell'em bullshit if you have to, but get that money.
It's always been that way.
What about the time $500,000 was raised by the French premies so that m could get his own place in France? Once the money was raised, m scrapped the plans for his own place and simply took the money without offering any explanation as to how it would be used.
This cult's means of raising funds is based totally on deception.
Then again, its belief system is based on deception. Why shouldn't everything else about it NOT be the same?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 12:59:14 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: DepressedaboutMJ
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
We just got an e-mail that said 'The suggested seating reservation fee is $45.00. This fee is requested, but not mandatory. It covers less than 30% of the event costs. Additional contributions are needed and greatly appreciated.' My husband will probably want to send money, though I doubt he will be able to go to this crap-fest. Somebody tell me to delete the message before he even sees it!
It looks as though the broadcast today is the 30th Anniversary thing in Nottingham. I think I'm going to be ill............. I have stuff I am afraid to post as it would very likely identify me. How can I do that without being identified? Help!!! Sometimes I feel like I am the crazy one and they are all fine. I know that's not true, but it gets to me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:47:01 (EDT)
From: secret agent
Email: it_is_soau@yahoo.com.au
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
Easy solved. E-mail it to me and I will put it on my site, dah? :)
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:42:26 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: 45 Bucks a Head cover only 1/2 of Cost ??
Message:
Hi.

Maybe you can tell your husband you'd be really happy to spend that money on the two of you since he won't be going to the program and you can have your own little festival and celebrate the 30 years.

A bottle of wine, nice food, flowers, video.

$45 for a stay-home evening. That's a better way to celebrate.

In reponse to your fear of being recognized:

Put the word out in underground email. It's fun. Send it someone who you trust and have them put it out for you.

By the way, is your husband catching on to your astute observations?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 06:41:55 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: All
Subject: (repost from LG); Wouldn't it be fair, Jim
Message:
if you really want to go on with your panel, that that panel also considered if ex-premies are a cult. You and other ex-premies constantly deny that 'ex-premies' is a cult.

In a post below, where I asked who is going to pay the bill and for the sake of fairness, I considered that the the members of the panels should be people who don't have any knowledge about EV or ex-premies. I suggested to find such a panel here in Norway.

Your reply to that was: 'Your 'challenge' doesn't interest me. It's completely beside the point. If you were a little sharper you'd see that. '

(BTW your challenge does not really interest me either, but the whole thing proves how narrowminded and unable you are to have unbiased thoughts)
I also wrote to you;
'BTW, if a person feels joy and enjoys Life, what difference does it make if some person(s) consider a group to be a cult.'

I tried to make a point about the 'cult' of Ayn Rand' but unfortunately you did not get my point.

Yesterday on TV there was a program about a cult consisting of danish middleaged women. They were only about 25 people, and they were fans and litterary worshipped Cliff Richard. They bought him nice gifts and they went to all his concerts. Back home in Denmark they met met frequently, they supported each other, when someone was ill, they stood up for each others, and f.instance when one person was seriously ill, the others bought her a ticket for the next concert in London. They were really sweet, but as they said, everybody considered them to be totally nuts.

My point is you can be a fan, and belonging to a group, ; it be to support Greenpeace or be one of the 'Cliffers' (as the danish women called themself) or be a fan of Cliff Richard - and thus can be a 'cultmember' or you can be a 'non cultmember'.
Jan Gronwald (I cant remember the spelling of his name) stated that the behaviour of person determines whether he is a cultmember or not.
I agree to that.

My point is also, that EV is not a cult, which EV correctly states at the FAQ question. However there are some people who will behave like cultmember and there will be people who don't. Thus the result of your panel will have no value at all, and I hope in spite of your narrowminded pattern of thinking can admit that everything is relative.

BTW, can anyone address the panel members? That is if the panel ever takes place?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:15:07 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Great Jim
Message:
I might do something like that but I consider it might be hard to persuade that this issue is of any importance at all. As I stated, if you are happy, feel joy in your life, this issues has no importance of all. The fact is that people make a cult. It is not Cliff Richard or Ayn Rand who make a cult. There will be special people with special behaviour that makes a group a cult.
But I appreciated your answer, and especially that you will take the challenges I come up with. Great.

Bjørn E who thinks the internet is a big sandcase

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:29:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: So?
Message:
Alright, Bjorn, are you prepared to seek out a nominee then? Someone you can approach as I did Beyerstein? You'd have to run him by your fellow premies, of course. But let's get the ball rolling, shall we? All it takes is that one step from you premies, the rest is easy.

Say you come up with someone. You tell the premies about him, maybe see if EV, Pia, Glasser, Maharaji or the ELK crew have any better candidate. If no one surfaces, then he or she's the one. They then talk with Beyerstein and it's then for those two to manage their process a bit. Can you see how this would work?

Here's a thought: once the panel's chosen, we could all email the panelists with the evidence we want them to consider and whatever arguments we want to make to them. These would be public, of course. Maybe we could have a forum set aside for just this purpose. There'd have to be a deadline for submissions, though. Say a month, perhaps? Afterwards, the panel takes over. They email each other, they talk on the phone, whatever. When they've decided that they're ready to decide (say we give them another two months or something), they do so. Then, like a three-person court, they write their decision. If they can sign onto each other's reasons, fine. If there's a dissenting opinion on the ultimate question, then expect a dissenting judgement. The point is, they have to decide. They have to vote. Is Maharaji a cult or not? (AND, if you insist and you're the one that comes up with the premie-nominated panelist, we can ask them to vote on your question too: is the ex-premie online community a cult?)

Fun eh?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:16:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Sure, Bjorn. Why not?
Message:
You know, if it's of any assistance, sure. If that's what it's going to take to bring you guys to the table, why not? You think I'm one bit afraid of having that question included in the discussion? Go for it, Bjorn.

But where's your nominee? Come on, guys. Where?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:07:40 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Because
Message:
on second thought I think it will be really lame to go to some people I know at the university and say. 'Hey, I am discussing something with a guy called Jim at the internet, and there are 2 groups of people; one called the PWKs and the other one is called ex-premies. There is a really important issue, You see this Jim, he is really a pain in the ass because he never gives up and he is convinced that the group called PWKs are in a cult, On the other side I think that the other group the Ex-premies are a cult. So I just wondered if you would be willing to be a member of a jury to decide which is correct. You see this is really important. You must volonteer to do this, and you probably will get around 100 phone calls and 1000 emails.'

Any person who would accept the challenge would be ready for the nuthouse. Everyone else would think I should go there.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:12:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Bullshit
Message:
Do you think Beyerstein's 'ready for the nuthouse'? A lot of people might see that there's a certain 'public service' element to participating. You haven't even tried, Bjorn. You haven't even tried. Instead, you pretend that you're into it but then the moment I call your bluff and give you what you want you back out. Where's the honour in that?
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:23:44 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The proof is in the pudding -
Message:
but you are to biased to understand that.
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:13:54 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: moral relativism
Message:
is the refuge of the irresponsible.

PS Passing Through - can you not start a thread because I said that.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 12:04:18 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: moral relativism
Message:
that was funny- re Passing Through :)
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 05:49:43 (EDT)
From: SincereDupe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji NEED to be Embarrassed at Thousand Oaks??
Message:
Its 2:30 in the morning. I have been reading the Posts on this and 'the Truth about MJ' website. I am SHOCKED APPALLED DISGUSTED. its been less than a week since I first found Ex-premie.org and Read the Accusations They Seem To have an Overwhelming Consistency and Credibility If True it means that Maharaji is a Greedy Meglomaniacly Ugly Man who has USED and Continues to USE People with no concern for their lives. All the While Pretending to be the MASTER

If i Knew this were true for sure. I would feel it is My DUTY to Embarrass Maharaji Publicly and Force him to Start Dealing with the HARM he HAs done to Many of Us

Is anyone Ready to Stand Up at a Program. and Yell about his Alcholism??? his Using of Women. his Sadistic Behaviors??? His harboring a Pedophile His Claiming to be the LORD GOD??? His Generally Demeaning Behaviors. and his demands to Surrender to HIS Wishes alone..and Denials of such?

I do not yet know for certain that the accusations on this site are true. but if anyone Does. then you have my Admiration and respect if Your Interupt his Program and Embarrass Him

He should NOT be allowed to continue his Charade He (apparently) has hurt too Many People

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:01:03 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: SincereDupe
Subject: Somebody -- Yeah,Go for it!! [nt]
Message:
Its 2:30 in the morning. I have been reading the Posts on this and 'the Truth about MJ' website. I am SHOCKED APPALLED DISGUSTED. its been less than a week since I first found Ex-premie.org and Read the Accusations They Seem To have an Overwhelming Consistency and Credibility If True it means that Maharaji is a Greedy Meglomaniacly Ugly Man who has USED and Continues to USE People with no concern for their lives. All the While Pretending to be the MASTER

If i Knew this were true for sure. I would feel it is My DUTY to Embarrass Maharaji Publicly and Force him to Start Dealing with the HARM he HAs done to Many of Us

Is anyone Ready to Stand Up at a Program. and Yell about his Alcholism??? his Using of Women. his Sadistic Behaviors??? His harboring a Pedophile His Claiming to be the LORD GOD??? His Generally Demeaning Behaviors. and his demands to Surrender to HIS Wishes alone..and Denials of such?

I do not yet know for certain that the accusations on this site are true. but if anyone Does. then you have my Admiration and respect if Your Interupt his Program and Embarrass Him

He should NOT be allowed to continue his Charade He (apparently) has hurt too Many People


---

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:49:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: SincereDupe
Subject: Re: Maharaji NEEDS to be Embarrassed EVERYWHERE
Message:
Hi Duped. In the same boat. Unfortunately it's true. Whether every single iota of information is TRUE now is splitting hairs. I learned what I needed to learn. Screw the little details.

Your idea would be a WAKE up call to the premies who won't come here. It will definitely get tongues wagging, I can assure you of that. But then what? You get hauled out by security. Not a good look, but maybe worth it. Problem. You get to do it ONCE. And the audience will only think you quacky. Not him. Remember.

Maha NEEDS to be publically embarrassed. In every country, every state, every province, etc. Every form of media as well. The local papers, media, newsreporters, etc. should get inundated with requests to cover the story.

Suchabanana links to a huge expose by the Oregonian press (4-days) on the cult of Cheatananda. This paves the way for more just-like-it stuff.

If you'd like to talk to via email, you're welcome. I'm here at the computer right now.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 07:47:09 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: SincereDupe
Subject: Thanks for your reaction
Message:
Whether anyone embarrasses Maharaji at the program or not, the various websites which tell the true story are always there for people to see.

Your post above shows that people do need to be told the truth. I bet you're glad you learned the full story rather than live in ignorance. Appalled but glad all the same. Thanks for sharing your reaction here.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 03:43:35 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@apollo.lv
To: All
Subject: Thousand Oaks and Dollars
Message:
From the program registration form:-

Only major credit cards are accepted as payment. 'International Conference Management' is the merchant that will process the charge and that will appear on your credit card statement.

and:-

This service is offered by International Conference Management under certain terms and conditions. By submitting this application, you indicate that you accept these terms. The data and services provided by International Conference Management are provided 'as is.' International Conference Management does not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or fitness for a particular purpose of any of the data or services provided by Élan Vital, the sponsors of the event, and to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law disclaims all implied warranties in connection with the data or services.

So why aren't EV running the event like they did Amaroo?

John.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:20:03 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Thousand Oaks and Dollars
Message:
Do you think they're worried about misrepresentation?

This service is offered by International Conference Management under certain terms and conditions. By submitting this application, you indicate that you accept these terms. The data and services provided by International Conference Management are provided 'as is.'

And what does this mean? Really! I don't get it.

International Conference Management does not warrant the accuracy, completeness, or fitness for a particular purpose of any of the data or services provided by Élan Vital, the sponsors of the event, and to the maximum extent permitted by applicable law disclaims all implied warranties in connection with the data or services.

p.s. I wonder how the premies will justify all this legalize.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:11:18 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Coming Broadcasts
Message:
''August Sunday 12th / Thursday 16th
RECOGNIZING THE MASTER
When a person feels the need for inner fulfillment, there is a friend who can help. This particular friend is the true Master, but recognizing him requires a certain understanding. Maharaji emphasizes the importance of recognizing the Master in this talk from a recent European tour.'' How can people, premie or not, listen to this kind of crap? John, it's really getting to me. I had thought and hoped it would't, but it's been a struggle the last few days. More stuff I can't even post. How can I do that and tell people this stuff? I am scared of some of it. Not the information, but it wouldn't be hard to identify me from most of it. Any ideas? HELP!
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 03:21:00 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Hello From The Wasteland
Message:
Hi. I'm currently homeless and penniless due to being kicked out of my mom's apartment for rebellious teenage style behavior. But life is interesting and I'm continuing to meet tons of interesting, awesome people. I've probably met a thousand people since Christmas when I started 'getting out more' after years of relative seclusion due to schizophrenia. I'm at a friend's house two blocks from where the annual Vancouver fireworks are held. We watched the first presentation tonight on the roof of her apartment building. The presenter was South Africa and it was marvellous.

Regards to all.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 07:50:46 (EDT)
From: John Clare
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I am
Message:
I am -- yet what I am, none cares or knows;
My friends forsake me like a memory lost:
I am the self-consumer of my woes;
They rise and vanish in oblivion's host,
Like shadows in love's frenzied stifled throes:
And yet I am, and live -- like vapours toss't

Into the nothingness of scorn and noise --
Into the living sea of waking dreams,
Where there is neither sense of life or joys,
But the vast shipwreck of my life's esteems;
Even the dearest, that I love the best
Are strange -- nay, rather, stranger than the rest.

I long for scenes where man hath never trod
A place where woman never smiled or wept
There to abide with my Creator, God,
And sleep as I in childhood sweetly slept,
Untroubling, and untroubled where I lie,
The grass below -- above the vaulted sky.

Posted by JohnT.
John Clare (1793 - 1864) wrote the poem while incarcerated in the Northampton County Asylum. May the sun long shine on you, Steve.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 17:39:05 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Please take Good care of yourself!
Message:
Peace and lentils,

such

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 07:22:35 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Steve
Message:
Hi

Hope things work out for you.

Sorry to hear your homeless and penniless....sounds dire.

You couldn't patch it up with your ma and from there find a place of your own? A thousand people is a LOT of people.....remeber though, one good friend is worth hundreds of acqaintances.

Take care mate

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:29:35 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: All
Subject: In praise of Abi
Message:
Despite being the subject of my critique, Abi and I had (for me) an enjoyable chat while you were out.
Succinct, clear and friendly.
Looking forward to another one.
PT
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:00:57 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: In praise of independence
Message:
PT,
I am responding to your post to me.
I figure that you were riffing off what small comment I made about
-does feeling your breath negate ever other issue here-
and you were venting the head of steam you built up answering others
posts when you got to me.

I dont know whether or not it would be in your personal best interest
to dethrone m in your heart or not.
I personally needed a lot of tapping of the blind mans cane (so to speak) before I could make a step away from so many years of gopi life. I had to feel confident about my place in life as far as
my heart goes before I could slowly move m off center stage without thinking I was blundering badly.
I had to answer questions for myself about WHY.
WHY am I faced with this dilemma in my life.
WHY is the truth no longer the truth.
WHY are there so many inconsistant things in regards to m.
Is it really the case that I can get to some goal or 'place' where
I am in the promised place.

If m IS the master of life, why does he speak like he does and why does he do what he does.

Once I got one foot in the door here, I just had to be able to sort it out and just HAD to stare at the dilemma till I came to an understanding about it that I could really feel was right and true.
It was very hard frankly and yet I am very glad I went ahead and
tackled the issue.

The struggle to understand was not between me and anyone else here on the forum. It was me standing up and facing whatever was in fact
accurate, and trying to digest all sides till I actually could do that without negating any positives and without negating any negatives.

I feel my breath more that you I bet. Just a guess, and I mention it just to let you know where I stand on that particular issue.
The value here is to hopefully ......well, who else is there that
can relate to us? My wife said to me 'speak to a therapist' and I said
how possibly could they understand all the issues I had to unravel?
It was too deep for me, too completely emeshed in me, and how would anyone be able to figure out for me how to transition.

Here at least there is the interest in the subject and the space to work it out.
I know that there are some that refuse to do the hard work of looking
at it straight. Those that are at least willing to stare at it long and hard will find that they CAN indeed move ahead safely and without compromising thier integrity and sincereity and find thier footing on actual solid ground.

In our own life.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:22:35 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: In praise of Bill (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:19:28 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: WHY is the truth no longer the truth
Message:
You've put your finger on the bottom line here . Rawat's revisionism is contemptible stupid & useless .

What he is revising though is the fact that many thousands of people sincerely believed that he was the Lord of the Universe .

You're right that therapists couldn't get their heads round dealing with someone who has been betrayed by the greatest manifestation of the almighty in human form, ever .

Thanks for your thoughts Bill : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:28:48 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: WHY today is no longer today
Message:
Dear Pat,
What you call revisionisim is simple change.
M was a 13 year old Indian who had spent his entire life in an ashramic place when he first arrived in the west.
Isn't it reasonable that exposure to the west, growing up, his own experiences would cause change?
M is now 40+ with adult children.
There would be something seriously wrong with him if he didn't change.
PT
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 10:14:10 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: C'mon PT-change is one thing, how about honesty?
Message:
I absolutely agree that rawat has changed over the years.
We all do.
It's just something that happens to most people.

But how about some sense of basic honesty?
Do you think he has one?
If he did, wouldn't he explain this 'change'?
Why does he need to ?
Because he got incredibly rich and used and manipulated thousands of people all over the world by telling them that he was the Lord, the most powerful incarnation of god to ever walk the planet.
He used the fear of god to get thousands of sincere people to give their lives to him in ashrams, only to dump them when he no longer had a use for them.

Shouldn't he explain these things?

Do you see why so many people either have left him or don't believe him anymore?

I'm not sure which fable applies more to mr. rawat-
-Emporers clothes
-Little boy who cried wolf

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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 17:24:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: People change.PT was 'Turner' ( honest? - dunno)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 31, 2001 at 00:50:07 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: C'mon la ex-how about listening
Message:
Have you spoken to all the people in your past and told them you are no longer (pick one)-
in love with (insert name here)
going to be a (insert occupation here)
living in (insert place here)
When M came to the west he was full of Indian concepts and imagery.
It's like Shakespeare- it sounds strange but that's how they spoke.
Being Lord of the Universe is no big deal in India- if you aren't the Satsomething or the Mahasomething you are not going to be understood.
Is Clapton still God?
Is Mohammed Ali still the greatest?
Or have they put out a press release apologizing for the deception.
PT
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:18:14 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: great post, beautifully put :)nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 04:11:46 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: In praise of independence
Message:
Well, I guess I can't call you bill-nt anymore. Thanks for that. You said it beautifully. Anything I could add would be redundant.
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:58:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC b)
Subject: Re: In praise of independence
Message:
Bill,

Beautifully said. Thanks so much.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:23:09 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: yes! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 22:20:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A possible premie nominee -- Kurt Andersen
Message:
Dave, I hope you read this. As many of us know, a couple of years ago, your brother, Kurt, wrote a piece about Maharaji for The New Yorker that never saw daylight. Kurt is thus someone who's already done some of the research the panelists will have to do. That is, he's already talked to members, current and past, and has looked at the archival record, such as it is. As your and Erika's brother, you know that he was going to great lengths to be fair in his article (which I take it you've read in draft as Erika suggested she did. I haven't, although I did lend Kurt one of my two copies of 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' which he never returned, his promises to do so nothwithstanding. But, hey, no biggie.) Kurt's a smart guy and, like I said, he might be a natural. What do you think?

You have to admit, Dave, that EV's FAQs, and pages like Pia's and Charles Glasser's are going to look ridiculous if the premies just run and hide the moment we exes say we're ready to finally resolve the issues we're all bitching about, from one side or the other.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:20:18 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: blood = thicker than water. nyet
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 23:26:47 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Kurt could be good,or Raja Ji?
Message:
Jim, I think Kurt might be good as well...or maybe the Raja himself

It's funny, when you start to think about all of this stuff...the more you think about who the cult might nominate, coupled with the fact that they most likely never will put someone in the ring, tells a lot about them...

If they really have nothing to hide, you would think that they would be happy to defend their good name and reputation against the 'hate club' at EPO.

But the fact that no one will likely volunteer speaks volumes to me.
First of all, I can't see anyone volunteering to participate unless M himself ok'ed it.
I don't see M doing that.
I don't see M doing it himself either.
It makes you wonder why they wouldn't...the conclusion I reach is that so much of their bullshit would come to light....even with many of the lifers, it would start to hit hard...it would take so much of the 'mysticism' out of it that premies still believe in, although they will tell you they don't...

I think if the invitation was worded in a very professional and sincere manner, stating that the purpose was to bring clarification and resolution to thousands of lives, a response would have to be in order from EV/M.
Their response (most likely declining) would be telling.
No response would also be telling.
A detailed list of attempts by people to contact EV and extend this invitation would be telling.

I think that the MRC letter was worded nicely-it asked for a response and gave reasons for it.
It might serve as some sort of model.

Also, wouldn't Raja Ji really be a great nominee for the premies?
Also, Michael Dettmers, if he would consider it, would be a great possibility.

I think your idea has great possibilities, especially if it doesn't look like it's taunting M, but just asking very logical, heart felt, common sense questions.
A non-response to such a reasonable request would tell a lot.

I think one possible way to start would be to take EV's own cult checklist and ask them if, according to their OWN checklist, it would make DLM/EV of the 1971-1986 era a cult?
And wouldn't that make M a cult leader?
And has he EVER addressed any of that or made reparations to the damage done, since we are assuming that cults have negative impacts on their members.

Anyway, the possibilities are endless....

I agree, a page linked to EPO would be great.

This could also dovetail nicely with the 14 objections....

It would be tough for any aspirant to get past this without questioning more...

Also, might make a few premies question things as well...

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 13:25:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Kurt? Ok. Raja Ji? Ix - nay
Message:
La-ex,

Why, after all these years, haven't you legally changed your name to LAX yet?

No, Kurt's okay because he's never been a premie. Mr. Banana contends that, as Kurt's the brother of two current, long-time premies, he'd never be fair. That's a good point but I still think it's for the premies to decide. But Raja Ji .... ? No way.

Now, would / could these guys -- any of them, ever participate without m's permission? I dunno. Not my problem. Not yours either.

I'm going to suggest to John, though, that all this stuff be reduced to a nice, succinct web page on EPO. A standing offer, so to speak. Surely, that will make a strong point vis-a-vis any further argument from premies who deny the fair meaning of the facts and history.

Work with me, baby!

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:01:18 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cos I'm afraid of being called EX-LAX..
Message:
On the other hand, Pat C. tells me that I have been the equivalent of ex-lax to the cult...
Maybe I'll come around, we'll see...

I think the letter/panel/challenge is great....

What do you think the next step is?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 20:41:11 (EDT)
From: Lax-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I like Pia,Charles,EV,m's neighbors
Message:
OK, I'm going to test the waters with lax-ex...we'll see what happens.

The more I think about it, the more I like offering this dialog to the premies through Pia, Charles or EV's websites...
The final letter could be posted on EPO and other ex sites, along with being sent to all the premie sites....it would be mentioned that it has been offered to all of the premie sites...
If they don't post it, it will start to illuminate things right away....

A possible pro-premie rep could be Harvey Cox, well known author and professor of religion at Harvard.
He wrote an article or two in the early days that were actually not too critical of m.

I think some sort of professor of ethics/philosophy/religion would be good as well...
OR
how about Charles Schutz (sp?)-the guy who was the facilitator at the famous San Yisidro debacle...or maybe m's therapist-Dr. Kassorla (sp?)

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 21:46:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lax-ex
Subject: Not, silly, not LAX-EX, LAX simplicitur!
Message:
Sorry, I just thought that 'la-ex' amounts to LAX which we've all flown into sometime or other.

Anyway, yeah the best I can imagine the premies coming up with would be someone like Cox. Mind you, he's still stuck with the evidence. AND, don't forget, he and Beyerstein still have to agree on a third panelist. That's the beauty of the project.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 16:25:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: That'd only happen if you go back
Message:
By the way, does anyone know of a single ex who ever went back? I'm not talking about a newager like Carol who never really put her feet down on the ground, so to speak (I'm sure she'd be flattered by that, by the way), but anyone else. Is it possible to pranam all over again when you know about Peter Frampton?

The next step, I think, is to see if anyone -- officially or even just a couple of premies, hell, one even -- puts their money where their mouth is. If so, the ball's in play.

Otherwise, I'd ask JHB, the new webmaster, if he wouldn't mind putting up something permanently so that anyone new dropping in can see that we have indeed tried to meet EV, Pia, Glasser et al. in this way, as well as all the others.

Got any other ideas?

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:06:27 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: Kurt could be good,or Raja Ji?
Message:
Been poking about the net again and I suggest that we take some of this conversation

here

scroll down to where it says 'click to enter forum, post your comments here'. I will re-do this page in time.

I think this way we can all convine to one place.

Any ideas?

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