Jim -:- May I reiterate this point? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:17:41 (EDT)

__ silvia -:- please -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:46:47 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Re: please -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:22:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- catalogue,package all the reported abuse[rs] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:54:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Right. Anyone got details on Parlokanand? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:02:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Richard? Could you elaborate please? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:45:54 (EDT)

David -:- The man of many names -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:56:09 (EDT)

__ Passing Through -:- The Holy Name -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:10:01 (EDT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- IP addresses -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:17:34 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- You could call him -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:35:52 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Thanks from me too -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:01:21 (EDT)

__ __ David -:- Yes but -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:12:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- New Zealand? [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:18:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Got it in one -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:23:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- why is it silly? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:41:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- good point -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:17:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah I don't get it -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:37:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- I get it -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:50:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes but she(?) could get another no? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:59:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Cold this time of year -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:13:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thats what I meant! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:18:21 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- thanks Dave nt -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:59:07 (EDT)

Selene -:- SC wants me to confront directly -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:17:04 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- Some ideas, + address da 'compensation' factor -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:32:20 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- good ideas -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:11:42 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Selene... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:49:37 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- + in maha's own Indian culture -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:37:10 (EDT)

__ __ REAL TALKING COW -:- Cynthia, How can we ever thank you !? :) -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:56:49 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- thanks Cynthia -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:57:02 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Oh my Gawd!! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:55:58 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia the Cow Lover -:- I call them my ''Ladies''... [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:54:07 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia the Cow Lover -:- Posted twice, sorry....cg... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:51:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- btw I picked up a book ot -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:23:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a cow you are, Selene! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:52:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- survival mechanism -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:58:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If you were my friend ... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:02:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: jail -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:14:42 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- don't bother -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:22:45 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- oh the cult -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:09:22 (EDT)

BeenThereDoneThat -:- Abi -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:34:23 (EDT)

Abi -:- calling all abusive premie men -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:39:10 (EDT)

__ Magnolia -:- non-abusive, non-premie message! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:03:54 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- very good! [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:39:31 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- That Goes For Me, Too -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:57:49 (EDT)

Larkin -:- Smile -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:49:26 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- My favorite line ..... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:16:56 (EDT)

saucy -:- hey Hammi -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:31:29 (EDT)

SC -:- Hey Jimbo, where's the music article? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:27:44 (EDT)

__ MOO -:- SC - check out DURGA JI COW -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:27:34 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- you are a revolting sexist pig -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:39:56 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- morning Abi -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:15:24 (EDT)

Abi -:- you fucking bastard jagdeo -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:07:14 (EDT)

__ Susan -:- pretty intense -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:55:12 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca -:- RIGHT ON, SUSAN!! [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:59:36 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- We owe it to ourselves -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:14:39 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- Re: We owe it to ourselves -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:53:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- victimization: shame, silence, + fear -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:30:30 (EDT)

__ Dave Punshon -:- Re: you fucking bastard jagdeo -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 09:33:59 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- Dear Abi -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:58:21 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- Sweet Such -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:01:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- cycles, + here/now, + after I'm gone -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:01:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ Bobo -:- triggered -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:27:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: triggered -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 10:58:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Abi, Dave, Such, Silvia -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:55:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It's Okay To Be Angry, Abi -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:48:42 (EDT)

BeenThereDoneThat -:- Wolfie -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:04:07 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Re: telling children -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:01:58 (EDT)

__ A Friend -:- Re: Wolfie -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:37:50 (EDT)

__ __ donner -:- Re: Wolfie -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:27:48 (EDT)

__ __ Bobo -:- Re: Wolfie -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:59:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Tell Them The Truth About Maharaji... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:22:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ bobo -:- Re: Tell Them The Truth About Maharaji... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:05:18 (EDT)

Jim -:- Maharaji's false dichotomy -- an anology -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:41:50 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- Re: Maharaji's false dichotomy -- an anology -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:07:11 (EDT)

__ Bobo -:- superficial? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:44:14 (EDT)

__ __ Bobo -:- Re: superficial? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:48:51 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- If music be the food of love -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:43:08 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- NO! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:12:47 (EDT)

Jim -:- What happened to Pia's page? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:25:40 (EDT)

__ janet -:- Re: What happened to Pia's page? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:22:48 (EDT)

__ __ Salam -:- Re: What happened to Pia's page? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:25:59 (EDT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- Pia, may her sincere heart Rest in Peace [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:22:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Re: Pia, may her sincere heart Rest in Peace -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:23:40 (EDT)

Jim -:- Let -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:49:57 (EDT)

__ Big Mo -:- first service -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:14:35 (EDT)

__ Salam -:- Let what? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:10:38 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Let me learn how to not do that by mistake -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:18:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Try reading when you do that -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:39:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Re: Let me learn how to not do that by mistake -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:28:37 (EDT)

Jim -:- Let -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:49:57 (EDT)

Deborah -:- ATTN: FA/JHB Outing Stalkers -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:21:58 (EDT)

__ Dave -:- How it works -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:43:38 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- R2 -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:40:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- He's a long way from you -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:01:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ Mitch Ward -:- That's disgusting -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:06:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- HARMLESS discussion???? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:03:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: That's disgusting -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:16:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mitch Ward -:- You know the answers to all -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:35:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Right Back At Ya, Mitch [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:22:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- you can't take responsibility for your own words -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:44:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mitch Ward -:- Really? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:12:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- wow, what a creep! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:08:47 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- Richard 11 -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:37:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:09:14 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: How it works -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:53:05 (EDT)

__ Barry -:- It's ok Deb! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:38:20 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- I don't do FA'ing -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:55:21 (EDT)

Jim -:- Here's your answer -- again, R2 -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:44:08 (EDT)

__ R2 -:- And here's mine -- again -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:56:24 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- My reply -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:20:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ R2 -:- And mine -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:40:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: And mine -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:58:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wrong, wrong, wrong -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:56:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ R2 -:- Hey Jim -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:06:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Hey R2 -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:27:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- R2 = CG ?! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:17:46 (EDT)

__ __ Barry -:- Re: And here's mine -- again -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:43:44 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Joe, Jim, Timmi here's a DLM case for 'ya -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:42:45 (EDT)

__ timmi -:- Re: Joe, Jim, Timmi here's a DLM case for 'ya -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:27:09 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- You're always welcome -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:54:42 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Come on now -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:50:00 (EDT)

__ CW -:- Bring it On!!!!!! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:34:21 (EDT)

__ Bin Liner -:- pre-cognitive dreams -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:38:47 (EDT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: pre-cognitive dreams -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:49:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Strange Encounter -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:01:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Strange Encounter -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:09:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Come on Such, give us the story }) [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:17:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- sheesh,embarrassed right now. -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:40:48 (EDT)

bill burke -:- Please notify forum of rawat events..nt -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:33:45 (EDT)

__ Barry -:- Re:rawat event! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:36:44 (EDT)

__ such -:- hiya,brudda.yep,good reminder. [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:04:08 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:17:41 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: May I reiterate this point? Message:

I think this is important so I'll say it again. Maharaji most certainly compromised the security of premies and their children by dealing secretly with every Mahatma sex scandal as it arose. Rather than admit that these guys were just regular human beings and not to be trusted any more than anyone else, he lead us to believe that they were 'holy men' or 'saints'. Their mystique heightened like this, he could count on major support from them for his own mystique as Lord. This is obvious and borne out by the historical record. There is no denying it. So look at the kind of shit that happened? Trebinanand sexually assaulted a girl and Maharaji quietly slapped his wrist for it. Soon after, Trebinanand's sent back out on the road as Maharaji's 'saint' and, with all the undue trust and respect accruing to one of such lofty spiritual purity, he's free to roam again. No warnings, no nothing. So what does he do? Rapes a girl in Regina, Saskatchewan. She flips out, thinks that this means that Maharaji's 'married' her somehow, carves a circle in her forehead and is institutionalized. What sayest thou, premies?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:46:47 (EDT) From: silvia Email: None To: Jim Subject: please Message:

Where was this information given? On Fv? and do u know when? I don't know why this guy is still in bussiness. Can we all work in a letter and put our signatures and do something to exposse him? I'm sick and tired of thinking that he continues to deceive people, new people, just like he did with us on the 70s. It makes me really sick, specially knowing the father of my son is still a sick premies and that my only son may fall under maharaji's indoctrination sooner or later. Hey, can I call you? Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:22:11 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: silvia Subject: Re: please Message:

Where was this information given? On Fv? and do u know when? Which part? I've known about and reported the rape story for years. It's common knowledge. The girl (now woman) has two sisters as well. They're both premies and one, especially, is a ga ga gopi, even today. Can you imagine? As for the earlier incident, Richard posted below: Mahatma Trevinanand (Trebinanand) was reported for taking liberties with a woman in New Orleans in 1973. It was a case of requesting more than a regular massage. He was due in Tallahassee and got called to Houston where Bal Bhagwan Ji (Sat Pal) was gearing up for Millenium. His punishement was reprimand and had to cut is shoulder length hair. Don't recall what happened beyond that re: further abuse. I just put it together. I don't know why this guy is still in bussiness. Can we all work in a letter and put our signatures and do something to exposse him? Come on, Silvia, a letter to whom? What's that going to do? The forum is a 'letter' and it's being read by many. It's hurting the cult like crazy. Otherwise, who would you send a letter to? Please don't just say 'someone'. That doesn't help. I'm sick and tired of thinking that he continues to deceive people, new people, just like he did with us on the 70s. It makes me really sick, specially knowing the father of my son is still a sick premies and that my only son may fall under maharaji's indoctrination sooner or later. Do you honestly think your son could fall for this shit knowing what he must know from you? I guess it's possible but sure doesn't seem likely. As for his dad, well, luckily you've got a life of your own now. Aren't you so happy that you're not still with this poor cult member? Hey, can I call you? Sure, anytime.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:54:17 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Jim Subject: catalogue,package all the reported abuse[rs] Message:

if everyone with information brainstorms, and using epo documentation, forum archives, other stuff posted on the internet, and personal testimony -- generate a more complete list of the empowered cult abusers and their alleged abuses/crimes + any documemtation. display it on an epo page. like da International Court at the Hague, or Nuremburg. But, first, leave it up to da international internet court of public opinion! Then, this may generate other responses from people reading about it. Bingo! Civil class action... if EV can go after jagpedo in a civil suit, then the ex-premies and families can do likewise, criminal statutes of limitation notwithstanding.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:02:56 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: such Subject: Right. Anyone got details on Parlokanand? Message:

Yes, Such, you're right. We should collect all the reports of sexually predatory mahatmas. How about Parlokanand, for example? How many boys did he molest and, most importantly, did he continue circulating as a mahatma after the first allegation? How could m ever justify that?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:45:54 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Richard? Could you elaborate please? Message:

Richard, Do you know anything more about what you reported regarding Trebinanand? Did he force his way with the woman? Did he seduce her? I think the details are important in light of what he did next. Know what I mean?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:56:09 (EDT) From: David Email: None To: All Subject: The man of many names Message:

What are we to call him? He has posted as Passing Through, Snake, Mala, Chambolle Musign and now as Mich Ward and SC. He resides in Australia, in the Sydney area. Richard 2 is not the same person. Richard 2 is in California.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:10:01 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: The Holy Name Message:

Dear Forum, I have only posted as Passing Through. PT

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:17:34 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: IP addresses Message:

Identical IP addresses ending in .60 = Snake .60 = Mala .77 = Passing Through OK, Snake and Mala are undoubtedly the same person, posting during the same internet session. Perhaps you share the same ISP and dialed up and posted within minutes of Snake/Mala? You can see why I'd surmise you are the same person though. SC and Mich Ward are the same though without doubt.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:35:52 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: David Subject: You could call him Message:

SC = shrivelled cock. Thanks for the detective work. But better just to block him, if you can. Until he gets a new name. Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:01:21 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: David Subject: Thanks from me too Message:

I wonder, Dave, once Catweasel brings his 'legal action' against me for stalking people on the internet, do you think I then might finally get to learn who this brave soul is?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:12:45 (EDT) From: David Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes but Message:

all the speculation about where she/he is is way off. Like the wrong country off. Catweasel is in, well, let's see if anyone can guess which country. Not Oz but not too far off.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:18:17 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: David Subject: New Zealand? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:23:02 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: Got it in one Message:

Our friend Catweasel is in New Zealand. Kind of makes all those 'outings' of the cat look a bit silly.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:41:10 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: why is it silly? Message:

ISP's and anonymizer services are not so hard to work. Shall I explain? Or do you know something I don't? come on now let's do it, fake an IP a time zone and a place of origin. not hard at all. sorry but unless I miss something I don't see your point. So explain please and help me out here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:17:03 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Selene Subject: good point Message:

Thank you for putting it so poignantly and succintly. I look forward to Sir Dave's response.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:37:20 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joey Subject: yeah I don't get it Message:

I hope that he will explain. I could very well be missing something but wonder what it could be. I mean even I could pay for a few of them for less than $100. The poignant and succint were borrowed from a challenge some guy who called himself Rob gave to me, to challenge my anonymizer skills, a year or two ago. Got me interested in the technology. That and a bit of hacking that was done of my servers. Selene one of those exs with authority issues :)

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:50:23 (EDT) From: David Email: None To: Selene Subject: I get it Message:

Yes I realise people can use proxy servers. However, the ISP I have for Catweasel is (as she has already said here) one of the biggest in her country. You can't use this one as a proxy server and neither could you telnet to it to use it as a server. It would require a paid account to use it. Of course, if I'm wrong, Catweasel will correct me.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:59:40 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: David Subject: yes but she(?) could get another no? Message:

or 4 or whatever. Is what I mean. It all depends on your dedication to the cause I guess. beats me. I do know I can right now sign up for several (now Finland, they really like this stuff) maybe one from blank or blank and yeah I have my one legit with my real name everyone knows. But I could be 5 other people too huh? So I do think defending someone solely on their ISP is naive. Got any other usual suspects in mind Dave? haha, I do.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:13:33 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Selene Subject: Cold this time of year Message:

She'd have to phone up NZ from Oz if she lived in Oz. Her ISP is also big in Australia too but of course the branch she's using is in NZ. There's no mistake about that. South Island, NZ. Nice place but cold this time of year. I've got three ISPs myself but they're all in the UK. Does anyone really get an overseas one? If one really wants to hide, all one has to do is use a proxy or telnet to a foreign server (my favourite trick).

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:18:21 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: thats what I meant! Message:

If it's any good it's still not traceable is it? OK soon the troll will be here claiming law suits. Email me if you want to talk about this.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:59:07 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: David Subject: thanks Dave nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:17:04 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: All Subject: SC wants me to confront directly Message:

So, I'm asking for directions :) How does one do that, confront a troll, an anonymous creative writing excellent studly guitar playing hunk who no one knows, directly? Any suggestions? Now please undestand I do believe there is a place for anonymity for someone has been hurt bad or needs protection but... all one needs to do is look at how it's being used against ex premies, on our forum, and draw their own conclusions. btw SC barry has a link, that may help you with your angst regarding your supposed manlihood. I'd do the html but not interested enuf. Cheers

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:32:20 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Selene Subject: Some ideas, + address da 'compensation' factor Message:

OK. Factors: maybe they be compensating for: their closeted male inadequacy fears, actual self-loathing, a misogynist, patriarchal, abusive or socialized upbringing, or they are simply sikh sikh sikh predatory anon internet abusers looking for ahimsa Bambi prey for their demented satiation, or maybe they have a peewee dingaling. Anyway, however one looks at it, it's all tied in with their own messed-up emotional insecurities. Maybe they can't compete with da other Bull elephants or dung beetles, or it's like their subliminal misguided pitbull-servant idea of doing it by codependent proxy on behalf of da beloved maha Massa. [Those are some of the buttons to push (but anything anatomical starts getting into da nasty reverse misogynist realm, however -- I call it misandroism - or a Ms. Androist).] Also, take anything a ritual abuser says, and as soon as you notice a pattern, take their exact words [or tactics], and rephrase them -- mirror them. Abusers love to try to pump themselves up by singling out and directly impugning or destroying others' credibility 1-on-1 -- just throw their ladus right back at 'em - in their face. They [abusers, bullies] can't handle it. Then, if they're traveling in bully-boy packs, their hyena ilk will jump in and cry -- foul, unfair, butt-ugly, etc. Then, there are several choices, including: 1) rational explanation or dissection of the dynamics at play, 2) gang-post and stomp on their stupid heads, watch them run with their tails between their legs, 3) advise them that they are in for a good ass-kicking every time they wanna play bully-boy [or bully-girl], 4) challenge them to a civil issues debate where no defamatory or personal attacks or innuendoes are allowed toward any of the participants, 5) post ' **rabies alert!**[nt ' and watch others jump in to administer da rabies shots, or 6)'Bad doggie! [nt ' (and Then, See Spot, see Spot run! Hasta la vista, baby!), or 7) get a thread petition going to block da obviously pathological ones (thereby eliminating da problem), or 8) post 'misogynist prem spam [nt' and EVerybody just ignore 'em and don't rsvp. Whatever, try hard not to take any abusive stuff they write seriously. That's their intent - to wound your feelings. Turn it back > into their inadequacy, their sickness, their own bestial inability to be civil or decent evolved human beings. And, of course, whatever the tactics you choose or invent, make sure you enjoy it immensely!!! Like, Enjoy this Life! hahaha Hope some of this has sparked some inspiration or so more good discussion here. i.e. da Verbal Self-Defense Support Network. Don't take no stinky ladus from anyone coming here. Never Again! Take back the personal power! Network, support, empathize, assist... It's healthy, necessary, part of da recovery process. Email each other. Above all, except for self-defense -- Share da love and kindness. Ya catch da bees with honey. Blessings to all those who have suffered in shame, silence, and fear. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:11:42 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: good ideas Message:

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:49:37 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: Selene... Message:

Dear Selene, This is a troll. Don't allow it to give up your dignity. I was thinking about that ''sodden cow'' remark. Except for the sodden part, it is actually a compliment (although certainly not meant to be on SCs part, and of course the sodden part). I live around hundreds of cows. Not one is fat. Cows are fat is a myth. Get up close to one, or a calf, and the beauty of their eyes is incredible. They are gentle, large, yes--but not fat. I never met a fat cow unless she was pregnant! They're beautiful animals! They provide all the milk we drink and ice cream too. They are beautiful creatures to behold. You're too good a person to fall into a confrontation with an anonymous troll. I must admit, I'd be tempted. Don't bother...gerry's right. Hope you're okay, though--it was a mean thing to say and meant that way. And sure, we're the hateful ones! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:37:10 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: + in maha's own Indian culture Message:

cows are literally considered sacred! da milk of human kindness

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:56:49 (EDT) From: REAL TALKING COW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Cynthia, How can we ever thank you !? :) Message:

I live around hundreds of cows. Not one is fat. Cows are fat is a myth. Get up close to one, or a calf, and the beauty of their eyes is incredible. They are gentle, large, yes--but not fat. I never met a fat cow unless she was pregnant! They're beautiful animals! They provide all the milk we drink and ice cream too. They are beautiful creatures to behold. Cynthia, I thank you on behalf of cows everywhere. As you know, we have recently witnessed one of the worst deliberately premeditated mass slaughter of cows in the history of the planet. These have been horrific times for cows and cow lovers everywhere. But people such as yourself Cynthia, unabashed as you are in sharing with us all that which is near and dear to your heart, gives us hope and inspiration. Hope and inspiration that we will return to our former numbers with many new little baby cows and cowettes, and that again the world's population of cows will be restored to 1.3 billion, as it was before the evil European slaughter. Cythia, did you know that 1.3 billion cows can release 70 million tons of methane gas into the atmosphere? BUT, big fucking deal! Mahraji can produce a zillion tons of mental gas with ONLY 4,000 premies at Amaroo!!! Again Cynthia, on behalf cows everywhere and those who love cows- WE...LOVE YOU ! !

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:57:02 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: thanks Cynthia Message:

I lived near a dairy farm in Pennsylvania once. That's my entire cow experience. I'm sure 'he' has lots more expeience with farm animals than I do - You are right, of course and so is Gerry. The Cat has been making insinuations about Jim's defense cases for months. And I made a point about it. Seems that some buttons were pushed. But yeah, I'm not into the big dramatic fight. I need to pack and head for some cooler lands and rain and mountains. And am procrastinating. I'm sure you know how that is, after your move! Hope things have worked out with all that btw. Good points, both of you.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:55:58 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Oh my Gawd!! Message:

Cynth, Anyone who ever accused the exes of not looking for a silver lining in these inherently distasteful communications with Maharaji cult members simply must read your post. Too much. :)

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:54:07 (EDT) From: Cynthia the Cow Lover Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I call them my ''Ladies''... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:51:28 (EDT) From: Cynthia the Cow Lover Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Posted twice, sorry....cg... Message:

nn

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:23:37 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia the Cow Lover Subject: btw I picked up a book ot Message:

for my trip. A friend reccommended it, White Oleanders by Janet Fitch. For some reason I think you'd like it a lot. It's supposed to be for my trip and I have already read a quarter of it, started last night around 11 and read til 3 a.m.!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:52:23 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: What a cow you are, Selene! Message:

You read for four hours when you could have been staring at your computer arguing with ghosts? God, some people!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:58:01 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: survival mechanism Message:

When you live here in the summer, you live in stories and movies. Congrats on getting on that bike by the way. I am proud of you. And a Good Book or Movie is special, the troll(s) are always there in those other times, no?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:02:55 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Selene Subject: If you were my friend ... Message:

You'd bug me regularly to find out if I'm riding as well as posting. Sorry, I'm pathetic. Can't ride now, though, because I'm at Laurie's. Mind you, once Cat has me arrested for stalking people on the internet I'll be able to work out in jail, I guess. In the meantime ....

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:14:42 (EDT) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: jail Message:

>Mind you, once Cat has me arrested for stalking people on the internet I'll be able to work out in jail, I guess. Depends how you get on with the other inmates. Be nice! And don't tell them the real reason you are doing time. CD

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:22:45 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: don't bother Message:

This is probably some overweight nerd wannabe whose only instrument playing ability is the skin flute (solo, of course.) You know, the kind who type with one hand...

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:09:22 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: oh the cult Message:

Sometimes i wonder if some of these characters are even 'students' of whatshisname. but aren't the ex's the drug crazed looosers with Mental Problems? Guess I'll have to check out he who cannot be named site again. Naw I think I have to wash dishes. Love ya.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:34:23 (EDT) From: BeenThereDoneThat Email: None To: All Subject: Abi Message:

Abi, I have a question for you. Would you like to start a foundation for children and adults who were abused as children in cults, religious organizations, and anything similar? There are enough people who believe you whole heartedly, ex-premies and current premies. Perhaps the leagalities of current prosecution and law suits, as well. Each state probably has laws that very in regards to time frame. The real issue that a foundation could address is getting help for those that were abused and not having to depend or wait for the abusing organization to take responsibility. You are an intelligent, articulate, caring, responsible person and I personally, can think of no one better to head such a foundation. Consider it and see if this is something that interests you. Best to you.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:39:10 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: calling all abusive premie men Message:

Hey creeps why not just join up and go for me in one long thread. You have the sophisticated, urbane agression of the educated R2, the deranged indulgence of the inappropriately inquisitive Bjorn bloke, the pure savage bar room curses of the delightful SC, the snide and desperate snivels of Mitch whatshisname... Am I missing someone? Any more sexist, abusive premie men out there who like trashing me? Come on, time to come out of your closet. Bond in your hatred. Cathart all that pent up stuff. Take a deep breath, remember Holy Name and let rip. And hey, if some other women join in you can abuse them too. Let me think... you could call me an hysteric, manipulative, a shrew, a self-serving victim faker, an enemy of your master blah de blah. But why not try and go beyond the typical sexist stereotypes for a change and try and use your intelligence. You could create your own little club - the trash survivors of child sex abuse club. So Jai Sat Chit Ananad brothers - stalk and abuse away.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:03:54 (EDT) From: Magnolia Email: None To: Abi Subject: non-abusive, non-premie message! Message:

abi- as the girlfriend of a pwk, i have been listening and asking questions both of pwks and occasionally of their now grown children. of course, nearly none of the kids have the slightest interest in their family's guru, but one of the girls has described at least two of the local male pwks (both exes now) as sexually abusing premie children. one lives in another country now and continued in his pedophile behavior through the 90s, at least. he was a sort of premie leader for the area in the early 80s. she remembered the other pwk exposing himself repeatedly to children when she was a child. perhaps pedophilia is just too damned common, so i don't know whether dlm and ev had a higher rate of sexual abuses than other religious organizations do. still, i have found most of the pwks and exes in this area a pretty strange bunch, and i wouldn't want any of them to babysit my children (other than my beloved pwk, who is warm and wonderful like many of you on this forum). folks love to blame the victim, abi, and i have been constantly appalled by the verbal barrage that is directed toward you at times by many of the assholes who lurk here. i got back online yesterday and read ev's report by ms. gross regarding jagdeo's victims, and all i can say is that you deserve only good things to happen to you, and none of this hateful bullshit. one suggestion - perhaps you should get a friend or partner to screen all messages directed to you, and only let yourself look at the positive ones. my therapist did this for me a decade ago, when my ex-husband was sending me angry letters, and it helped me to get the negative messages out of my head so that i could focus on happier thoughts. Magnolia

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:39:31 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Magnolia Subject: very good! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:57:49 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Abi Subject: That Goes For Me, Too Message:

Come on, you wimpy sexist creeps! Call me a name, I can take it! You're all invited to join the current troll club ''The Official EV/Maharaji Pedophile Lovers Club'' 'We love to trash survivors of our favorite sex offenders....' Cynthia :_

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:49:26 (EDT) From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Smile Message:

Smile, Handsome Guru man, You’re the Only One Leading all love’s children To that breakfast in the sun Never more to think again Never more to blink again Tease them to the brink again Oh what fun..! Shine, Golden Guru man The darkest hour is passed Aquarius is dawning - yea, Thine age has come at last And here’s your holy army, man All more than two parts barmy, man So charming is their swami man - till he’s rat-arsed.. Heil, Master Guru man Your Word it shall be done Your car [oops! - sorry – ‘cup’] it runneth over And your kingdom it is come They’ve no-one else to match you with No mortal man to batch you with Don’t ever let them catch you with Your pants undone… Rise, lusty Guru man Here’s sisters by the score Their lives are yours, surrendered – hey! – What could you ask for more? But basking in the afterglow Some wanton child now wants to know: Was she co-star in the show or unpaid whore..? File, flaky Guru man Some lawsuits left and right Don’t be a victim of The libel, bile and spite But just in case, you better shred The evidence of all you’ve said In case the taxman gets ahead and so goodnight… Run, little Guru man The hour is getting late And karma’s called you home for tea The truth it will not wait You’ve no more pals to call upon (but here’s a sword to fall upon…) For else they’ll have your balls upon A golden plate… [ the collection ]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 15:16:56 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Larkin Subject: My favorite line ..... Message:

Your car [oops! - sorry – ‘cup’] it runneth over Good one!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:31:29 (EDT) From: saucy Email: None To: All Subject: hey Hammi Message:

were did you go again? am looking for the url to your website, what is it pleettzzz?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:27:44 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: All Subject: Hey Jimbo, where's the music article? Message:

It appears to be lost amongst a sea of acrimonious utterings which I have no compunction to wade through at this time.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:27:34 (EDT) From: MOO Email: None To: SC Subject: SC - check out DURGA JI COW Message:

below. So whaddya think? Did she swallow before or after he was of legal age. You know... Durga Ji the COW and that GOAT little Lord of the Universe lover of hers. MOO MOOO MOOOOOO

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:39:56 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: SC Subject: you are a revolting sexist pig Message:

How dare you speak to Selene like that. Who on earth do you think you are? You owe her an apology boy. Where do you get off speaking to women like that? What sick thrill does it give you. Where oh where is the peace, love and enlightenment your Master gives you. DISGUSTING Apologise to her.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:15:24 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Abi Subject: morning Abi Message:

Thank you. Consider the source, or in this case lack thereof. When a real person, real identity talks to me I am more inclined to listen. Until then, none of these characters mean much, Jim called them ghosts. But I appreciate your words.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:07:14 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: you fucking bastard jagdeo Message:

you pig of a man, you filth, you wretched scum. You broke our souls you bastard. I just got a letter from a childhood friend who was in that room with me. She lives in fear. She has nightmares. She was a bright, brave child and you broke her! You broke us. Let me count the suicide attempts made by the children that were in that room. Seven attempts. One successful. Broken lives. We were just kids. You fucking bastard!!!! And how many others? What happend to the children at the Denver Unity School. How many others? And you, EV, play political games to protect your master. You send your goons here, you spy on every word I write, you report back to your heartless troops. Don't you understand how deep the damage is? Don't you understand what it did to us? It made us prisoners of our nightmares, it made us trash out bodies, it made us hate ourselves, it stopped us from finding love. bastards, you fucking, nasty creepy fucking bastards

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:55:12 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Abi Subject: pretty intense Message:

Abi, It must have been really intense to read her letter. I send her my support. There are heartless, cruel sadistic people in this world. There are people who do not have the capacity to care about how their actions affect others. In fact, there are people that get kicks out of causing others distress. Obviously, Jagdeo was among these. But, I think the internet provides an arena for people who have cruel tendencies to act them out without having to endure the usual societal repreccussions. I think some of these people especially enjoy tormenting you on this board. I frankly don't think it has ANYTHING to do with protecting their supposed love for their master, I think it has to do with the opportunity to be cruel and sick and be self righteous about it. I think these men think it is fun. Nothing to do with their guru at all.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:59:36 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Susan Subject: RIGHT ON, SUSAN!! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:14:39 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Abi Subject: We owe it to ourselves Message:

we victims (I'm one) have to learn to live with it because it will never go away enough to forget altogether; you know that. I don't know the process stage you are at, or you you received/receive therapy and even that I read your posts, only you know what you feel. I don't want to intrude in your need to express your anger and I understand it is healthy, but I feel like sharing how I lessen and delt with my pain, frustrations and anger toward the abuser. To me, the recovery process has taken years, too many, but then I realized that I had to be good to myself, avoding feeling those horrible feelings; I had to let go. How? Thinking that that abuser is a horrible person, a little being, an ignorant, etc. and that I am not, that I am a loving person and that my bad feelings toward him had the potential to bring me to his level: I can become too, in another way though,a horrible person if I fed in those negative emotions, a horrible person in many ways but mainly toward myself. In the process of feeling angry and frustrated I CAN forget about being good to myself. I don't know any other way to put it. English is my second language and I cannot express very well, more, because I am writting taking a brake from my busy day, but what I am trying to tell you comes from my understanding exactly how you feel because it happen to me too. Yes, this type of people who violate children rights to their innocense, those who robbed us and made us grow 'different' are horrible monsters, and they did it because they are/were ignorant beings, low entities who in their insecurities and desires chose to violate the weak to feel some kind of power or strenght. They are sick beings. They are BAD people, but you are not. Yes, attack EV and ask for answers. Where is him? Is good to find him for many reasons. He may be doing the same still today to other children, but what about Abi? Abi, do what you can because it will make you feel good doing it, standing up for the hurt 'child' withing but keep yourself vigilant of your feelings otherwise it can hurt you even more. I don't know you. I just felt giving you a little advice of how I dealt with my similar experience. Live well. Love Abi. jagdeo have to be found: That will help bring closure, I agree, but don't hate him so much that you get hurt once more. I wish you well.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:53:39 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: We owe it to ourselves Message:

Thanks for sharing all of that and I apprecaite your insights into the whole experience. I really don't though, spend my days cursing jagdeo and sticking pins into voodoo dolls. I don't live in a perpetual state of anger and hate. I just became very sad and angry about it because i read a letter from a friend who was also abused. I felt angry for her, for myself too, but also for the others. Mostly I love being with my little boy, romping about and playing with him and his little pals. Laughing with friends, talking about things which have got nothing to do with any of this cult abuse stuff. Jagdeo has not taken over my life. In fact I do not really think about him very often. He is like a thing, a distant monster. I don't ever look at the picture of him on epo. I was having a lot of nightmares about it when Valerio was talking to me but they have gone. I know how to do things to minimise the pain. I really do have a life outside all of this. Things I want to do which have nothing to do with any of this stuff. But that still doesn't stop me from being angry about it all. Especially when I read about the tormented life of another victim. That makes me angry because she can't speak it to anyone but me. The shame, silence, and fear are what we have to fight. Thanks for your wisdom. I'll give what you said some careful thought Abi

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:30:30 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Abi Subject: victimization: shame, silence, + fear Message:

'The shame, silence, and fear are what we have to fight.' Bingo -- exactly! i.e. da dreaded family secret - don't ask; don't tell anyone. what did I do to deserve this, as a child [or as an adult in da cult]? my fault? how can I possibly tell anyone? I'm so humiliated, ashamed. what would they think? would they distance from me? would they reject me, not love me? what situations are likely to create that fear? can I trust this person? what does this person want from me? can I open enough to ever trust or love anyone in a real relationship? I just don't want to be hurt again -- and again, again. 'I am a rock, I am an island. and a rock feels no pain, and an island is alone...' --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - + if anyone tries to build his/herself up by simply tearing you down as a human being, don't stand for it -- either disassociate from that person, confront them with their abuse, or throw their trip right back, then and there, in their bleepin' face! Abusers hate that last response -- they go into denial, or start whining. Ever since exiting the cult last year, I have felt SO strong again -- finally. I don't take any sh-- from anyone. I honestly try to be kind and truthful and fair with people, but if someone deliberately abuses my goodwill and openness, I have no problem turning their vomit spigot right back on them. Not exactly pleasant, but sometimes necessary -- but Never be a doormat, Never be a victim again. Never Again!!! Take back your personal power!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 09:33:59 (EDT) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: you fucking bastard jagdeo Message:

Dear Abi Your experience was truly nasty - makes me feel ill thinking about it. I was abused by my piano teacher - Fred Fitzjohn was his name - in the early 1960s, so I know what it's like. He was a trusted family friend and neighbour, and I just knew that he would be believed (not me) if I spilled the beans - he would have denied it. Also, if my father did believe me, Fitzjohn would have been dead, and I didn't want to see my dad end up in jail or hanged. Jagdeo used to stay at the 'ashram'(?)in East Acton, London whilst I was living there. My job was to run errands for him, and sometimes massage his back. If I had known about his child abuse I would have shopped the bastard to the police like a shot. Lots of love, Abi Dave

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:58:21 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Abi Subject: Dear Abi Message:

As a survivor of longterm child abuse, I feel deeply for you and the others you mentioned. 40 years after going out on my own, I still have bitterness that occasionally wells up in me, and I know all too well the deep emotional and psychological scars that afflicted my life detrimentally. Believe it or not, I have even found myself saying similar things to no one in particular in the bathroom mirror, when something happened to regurgitate the bad memories. Letting out the long-repressed hurt -- even after so many years, and forgiving, the pain is nevertheless still there. Things happen sometimes or somewhere to remind me; it's almost unavoidable. I can't help it, try as I might. sheesh. So, I hope you find some peace and happiness soon. May God bless you, Abi, and all so affected. Love, da lil' swami PS I made the decision awhile back to bequeath a chunk of my worldly investments and inheritance to legit child abuse shelters/education.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:01:41 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Sweet Such Message:

It's hard sometimes isn't it. Just made me so angry to read about her pain. I was the oldest of all of us and we were alone a lot. I guess I wish I could take care of her somehow. Makes me so angry. She is like my little sister. She's had such a hard time of it. Sorry to hear about your abuse too. I think you have far more integrity and courage than our former Master. You did something to help children. He never has. Getting triggered is a bummer isn't it.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:01:21 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Abi Subject: cycles, + here/now, + after I'm gone Message:

Abi: r.e. triggers: it could be a tele show, walking along a street and seeing some abusive parent hit a little kid in the face in public, reading the newspaper about a kid who was routinely tied up and tortured, reading about a kid who was brutally stabbed at home this morning, seeing the cigarette burn marks on my brother's arms, seeing an almost familiar scene or place or hearing an out-of-control abusive person -- deja vu, or just observing my own pathetic reactions to situations where I should have set some personal boundaries with abusive or overtly aggressive people, but didn't -- it was my whole conditioning. + Abusers have this uncanny radar for people they can abuse. The abuse later tied in perfectly with susceptibility to the exaggerated m. enthronement cult claims, the fascist hierarchy, the material and physical deprivation and personal devotion sacrifices, and endemic low self-esteem routinely fostered in the cult mentality directly by miragey's speeches, directives, and via his DLM/EV honchos. Now, the m. trip is presented as enlightened despot Massa and his Big Brother mind-numbing video warm fuzzies, but there are plenty of psychopaths and abusive people still involved in service/participation for miragey. The cult historically has fostered a daisy-chain of enablers, co-dependents, and abusers -- all kowtowing to the capricious whims of insatiable, dyfunctional miragey. Where did miragey learn some of his own abusive behaviours? dada guru. Shri Hans used to beat some of his disciples with a stick, he dissed his subservient wife by taking a second wife right in front of her, he verbally abused devotees, and he propped up his megalomania with Massa/slave-dog diatribes and writings. miragey was dysfunctional, losing his dad when he was impressionable and only 8. After he proclaimed himself da massa, m. made an icon out of dada. The cycle perpetuated with him, and then miragey expanded and extrapolated the cycle of abuse, megalomania and ritualized delusion -- with the wide net of his cult. Perhaps the premies and a legally defrocked miragey should get a team of some medical professionals and just convert EVI into a 12-step AA-style cult recovery group for those still involved -- with clinical debriefing and deprogramming. That's essentially what epo and F6 have been doing, anyway, online, albeit often confronting. Private personal professional counselling has also helped a lot of the former premies and their families. I just wish my own kid understood better now and wasn't so bitter and distant because of the past, too, and how his parents' heavy cult involvement essentially destroyed our family. Gee, that's another trigger for me -- right there. But, it's a pretty day. A nice weekend for a walk, or a country drive, or simply sitting quietly in a lovely floral English garden. Don't forget to stop and smell da roses! Peace and lentils, P.S. Except for phased-in donations, the bulk of da money will go to the abuse shelters/education after I'm dead -- I can't touch the estate right now [probably better that way, too]. suggestion [hope you don't mind]: create a network with your friend and any other victims. document everything that happened. compile signed depositions or notarized letters. be pro-active; take the personal power back. Set personal boundaries of protective self-respect and only socialize with those who likewise support and respect you.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:27:40 (EDT) From: Bobo Email: None To: Abi Subject: triggered Message:

Of course I can only respect and acknowledge your fight against these very real demons. What really appals me is that some low lifes and also EV question your motives. Of all people they think they have the right to do that!!! I would favor those people being blocked. I understand that the jagdeo issue is part of the dark history of EV and as such part of the dark history of all of us as ex premies, and that discussions about that part of the equation are inevitable. The kind of critiscism you have to endure has child abuse victims over the course of history prevented from speaking out. It is probably hard to filter but some of the personal attacks (R2) are unspeakable.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 10:58:16 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Bobo Subject: Re: triggered Message:

Good point Bobo. I think the EV press release effectively warns other victims off from trying to seek justice. I know many are scared of EV and what they will do to them if they come forward and who can blame them now. They fear that EV will trash them. It's the fear that keeps them silent. They are wary of this big international organisation and what it is capable of. God knows I get pretty terrified myself. it gets a bit spooky sometimes.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:55:53 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, Dave, Such, Silvia Message:

Dear Abi, Just wanted to say that I think about you often and send you best wishes. I am glad to hear of your life with your son. Good reminder that what we put on this Forum is only one part of our thoughts and lives. A lot more going on once we rise from the keyboard. dear All, Several people that are close to me were victims of child abuse and so many of the things that were said by everyone in this thread touched my heart this morning and rang true. I have heard and seen a lot from them, and the anger and pain do run deep, and there are many things that can trigger it. I would also like to see the verbal abusers blocked but it's not my Forum. Richard II has gone after Abi since (I believe his first post) and Bjorn, well, we won't even talk about it. Love to you all, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:48:42 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Abi Subject: It's Okay To Be Angry, Abi Message:

Dear Abi, What a difficult time to get that letter. I support you in expressing your anger right now. You, of all people here, have endured so much more beyond the original abuse at this point. Then these creeps come in and man, Abi, I really think they ought to be blocked. They are truly being brave to even talk to them. I wouldn't, but I have a feeling I know exactly where you're at right now. Why not make a doll and stick pins in it? Make one of Maharaji, too. It would be no personal threat and might be a good release. Or stomp on them and rip them to shreads. The rage inside you right now is normal. The letter you got is such a trigger and I cried when you wrote about another victim of that monster. Jagdeo is a monster of extreme proportions. But, you do not need these cyberstalker's validation to own your anger and grief over your abuser's crimes. Nor EV's. Go for the money. They owe you a lot. Christ, Maharaji could sell a few of watches and cars and set up a trust for all of the victims of his past/present/future agents, such as Jagdeo. It would be much better PR than sending off a fake and false press release. I just don't get it, Abi. They must be nuts! Don't let them paint you as crazy, because you are NOT CRAZY! Chaos during crisis times is normal. You don't know how long this process will take. How could EV? To Maharaji, EV, all PAMs, and especially Jagdeo: HEALING TAKES AS LONG AS IT TAKES, ASSHOLES! Read a fucking book about abuse. Especially you, Maharaji...and don't just go the the last chapter because you're too lazy to read a book. And leave Abi alone with this campaign of your cultic insanity! SHAMELESS. YOU ARE ALL SHAMELESS! Love to you, Abi Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:04:07 (EDT) From: BeenThereDoneThat Email: None To: All Subject: Wolfie Message:

You wrote a little while back that your kids were not interested in receiving knowledge. You are very lucky. I am in the precarious position of now telling my two children that maybe it's not such a good idea to get knowledge. They are both now over eighteen, have been to many events, seen Maharaji since they were babies before babies were banned. And now, how do I explain everything that I once held dear and true and lived daily perhaps is not so? My daughter in a knowledge session with the possiblilty of being accosted? My son x-rated so he can smoke dope with Maharaji? They've never eaten meat, except my daughter was once forced at a friend's house. Maharagi said something like 'How many animals are being killed? Many, many animals ......'to be eaten. I've got that old Divine Times somewhere. Do I want them to go to events anymore? No. They have seen so much deception, deceit and dishonesty in their young lives because of exposure to corporate america. The one place they always saw me turn was to Maharaji and the premies ie events, etc. Now I have the wonderful pleasure of telling them, hey guess what? Maharaji was up to stuff that isn't so wonderful and EV is just a corporation like the rest? I'm so not looking forward to this. They waited eagerly to turn eighteen to receive knowledge.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:01:58 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: BeenThereDoneThat Subject: Re: telling children Message:

Not the same as you but similar. My children were there before banning. My son got close to an old premie friend last year and watched a few videos, my daughter asked to borrow a video the day after i found this site and my tinted specs fell off. my other daughter is asleep upstairs so I'm sneaking on the computer. I always imagined they would get knowledge one day. Now I want to talk to them about this but dread it. One of the hardest things for me as a parent is watching my kids grow up and get disillusioned. I guess the positive of this is to think that if we have been duped knowing about it will give them some wisdom for later. It is sooo humiliating tho' isnt it. I'd like to hear how it goes. I finally told my husband and it was such a relief. i thought he'd be devastated, he had been secretly been wondering about many things and now we can talk this through with each other.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:37:50 (EDT) From: A Friend Email: None To: BeenThereDoneThat Subject: Re: Wolfie Message:

Give them the techniques yourself. Do it lovingly. Meditate with your children to help them steady their concentration. This has been done my many parents who have walked. It is very liberating, and eliminates the corrupt element in the knowlwdge process. IT IS NOT A PRECARIOUS SITUATION. If you grow up in front of your children and take back the reins of your life - in front of them - they will be spared a 20 year detour. And get some quite decent tools for inner experience as well ! Plus you will heal 2 generations at once. Not a bad days work.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:27:48 (EDT) From: donner Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Re: Wolfie Message:

i agree with 'friend' and the post... makes good sense...it always amazes me how giving and teaching the techniques to someone is so hard...was for me..even though i knew intellectually that m never owned knowledge nor the exclusive rights to sharing this wonderful 'technology' to go inside. that brainwashing was deep. amazing to see how th whole package was presented, related and intercnnected to reinforce m's position in it all... good luck you wonderful women in your efforts with your children. never easy no matter what us outsiders say. good luck and blessings on your efforts and stuggles.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:59:48 (EDT) From: Bobo Email: None To: A Friend Subject: Re: Wolfie Message:

Sounds like a great idea!! I do wonder how they would react visiting EPO and see all the information displayed there.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:22:57 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Bobo Subject: Tell Them The Truth About Maharaji... Message:

What Donner said was right on! For so many years I held that devotional promise not to ever reveal the techniques. I've done it recently, just to show my friends what the techniques are about. Plus, being truthful with your children, whether grown or not, will only show them you are human. That they are human. That Maharaji was/is the illusion in your/our lives. That you were sadly, badly mistaken about him, and it is a cult. I always wondered what initiators/instructors felt during the k sessions. Wanted to be one. Now, I'm free to give out techniques guiltfree! Wonderful idea, Friend, and Donner, too! Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:05:18 (EDT) From: bobo Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Tell Them The Truth About Maharaji... Message:

Still think that it is the best way to , almost formally, cut ties with rawat as guru

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:41:50 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji's false dichotomy -- an anology Message:

Here is an article from U.S. News and World Report about scientific exploration into the nature of music. Take a look. I found it interesting, maybe you will too: The musical mind If song has no purpose, why is it deep-wired in the brain? By Tim Appenzeller Music means nothing to Isabelle Peretz's patients. The University of Montreal psychologist studies people who have suffered brain damage from a stroke or surgery and lost the ability to make sense of the simplest tune. To the most seriously affected, 'Happy Birthday to You' is a meaningless jumble of notes, and a Mozart sonata sounds no better or worse when it is played off key. Their plight seems bizarre. But the bigger mystery, scientists are coming to realize, is that music speaks so powerfully to the rest of us. It's found in every culture and has probably been with us as long as we have been fully human. Yet unlike other basic skills, such as language and toolmaking, it doesn't seem to help us survive and reproduce. It doesn't even mimic the real world, as some art and games do. As David Huron, a musicologist at Ohio State University, puts it, 'Music is weird.' The more scientists learn, the weirder it seems, because this seemingly useless taste is deeply embedded in our brains, and maybe even in our genes. Some of the latest evidence comes from scientists in Germany, who have found that even in people with no training in music, the brain is capable of sophisticated musical analysis. The faint magnetic signals emitted as neurons fire show that the brain gives a little start of surprise when a passage of music takes an unexpected turn. Other researchers have recently mapped a broad network of brain regions that separately analyze pitch, melody, timing, and emotion. Choosing dessert. It all shows that listening to music 'is a very sophisticated thing to do,' says Robert Zatorre, a neuroscientist at McGill University in Montreal. Some researchers argue that we do it simply because music, like wine or a rich dessert, tickles pleasure circuits that evolved for other, more useful purposes. 'Auditory cheesecake,' neuroscientist Steven Pinker of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has called it. Other scientists think our musical brain evolved because it gave our ancestors some as-yet-unidentified evolutionary advantage. And still others theorize that music came along for the ride as we evolved the brain circuits needed to decipher speech or natural sounds. Despite the competing theories, few would disagree with Zatorre when he says, 'There's something about the brain that predisposes us to learn about music.' He thinks our brains are prewired for the task, enabling us to learn music as fast and effortlessly as we learn to talk. Others go further and argue that a sophisticated ear for music may be inborn. Sandra Trehub of the University of Toronto teaches babies 6 to 10 months of age to listen to snippets of music played over and over again and to react when they hear a change. Those experiments have shown that Everybaby is, if not a little Mozart, at least a natural music lover with abilities 'incredibly similar to adults.' Like adults, babies perceive a tune as the same when it is shifted in key, yet if the pitch of a note or two is changed they instantly know something is wrong. The tunes that adults find most pleasing, in which successive notes differ in pitch by specific intervals–octaves and so-called perfect fifths, for example–are the ones that delight babies as well. Babies are much better at remembering tuneful snippets than less melodic tunes. It's possible, Trehub concedes, that by 6 months, babies have already heard enough lullabies and stray melodies to have cultivated an ear for music. Yet others have seen the same abilities in newborns, she notes, and the babies she has tested don't prefer music that is specifically Western–the kind they are most likely to have heard. Instead, they seem to respond most strongly to scales and intervals found even in unfamiliar, non-Occidental music. Trehub speculates that we are born with a musical brain because music provides a special communication channel between parent and child. Lullabies are found in every culture, she points out, and so is parents' habit of speaking to babies in singsong, musical baby talk: 'Music is a child-caring tool.' Or maybe, says Huron, music evolved because it provided a crucial social glue in humanity's evolutionary past. Campfire songs, hymns, and marches help unify groups today; tunes piped on Ice Age flutes may have given our Paleolithic ancestors the social cohesion they needed to hunt, forage, and do battle. Many people trying to explain the musical brain favor a different idea, however: that even if music itself did not give our ancestors a survival advantage, it is closely tied to something that did, namely language. Some of the same mental faculties that let us appreciate Mozart also come into play in conversation, after all. 'Much of the information that's transmitted during speech is transmitted by pitch and timing,' two of the crucial elements of music, says neurologist Mark Tramo of Harvard University. Think of the little upturn at the end of a sentence that signals a question. Double duty. Brain-imaging studies show that parts of the right brain that are sensitive to pitch in music play the same role in speech. And the left brain, sensitive to the split-second differences in timing that make, say, pa and ba sound different, is also busy when we listen to music. Work published by German researchers this spring shows that Broca's area, a patch of brain that analyzes language syntax, seems to do a similar job in music. Its activity spikes in response to inappropriate chords just as it does for a verbal incongruity. Yet even if music shares some mental equipment with speech, it is much more than just an offshoot of the spoken word. Indeed, brain-imaging studies suggest that some neurological wiring is unique to music. Equally compelling evidence comes from Peretz's 'amusic' patients. Even though music is beyond their ken, their ability to speak and understand seems unaffected. Indeed, says Zatorre, 'they are completely intact in every way–one is a real estate developer, one is a nurse.' The music has stopped for them, but they carry on. And that brings back the deep strangeness of music, seemingly so central to our lives–and so irrelevant. ****************************** When I came upon this article (after my vigorous fifteen-minute ice-breaking exercise bike session) I couldn't help but think of the music threads on LG. AND, of course, this lead me to think of Maharaji and music and what he'd likely say about the subject. Now, here's a wonderful little article about this fascinating corner of brain research. What is music and how does it work? Why do we like it? -- and so on. All good stuff. Yet, am I wrong or unfair to say that, without a doubt, Maharaji would, if asked, dismiss this article and the research it discusses as so much unnecessary mental nonsense? I mean, honestly, isn't that exactly what he'd say? Come on, let's be fair now, isn't it? Sure it is! Maharaji, as he always has, would say something trite about how music is meant to be felt or enjoyed, not 'intellectualized'. I'm not sure how far one can go with the parallels between Mao's Chinese Cultural Revolution and premiedom (like I said, we never ate our community coordinators), but to the extent that they both were so damn anti-intellectual, yeah, there's some similarity). But isn't that attitude wrong? Isn't it the case that there's plenty of room to both enjoy music and to enjoy discovering more and more about what it is and how it works? Isn't that discovery every bit as rewarding in its own right and in its own way as the sensory pleasure of music itself? I sure think so. Ok, maybe they're not equal -- who cares? Point is that there's room for both. It's no either / or. That's a false dilemna, isn't it? But Maharaji has always played that false dichotomy for all it's worth. I have to say, it even seemed to make sense back in the day. Back in the early seventies when he used to say and we used to believe that one could 'realize' Knowledge in an instant, in less than a second, it made sense to forget about anything less direct than keeping absolutely, one hundred per cent focussed on the so-called Holy Name. One followed one's breath as intensely as possible because, like I say, we thought we could actually take off any moment. Hell, we, too, could reach the exalted state of consciousness of the mahatmas! You didn't have to be Indian. Saph did it, didn't he? Or if not Saph, how about the first four western 'saints': Woods, Brigham, Sullivan and Patterson? We honestly thought we could take off into another world and leave our minds behind. The mind, in the circumstances, was just a dead weight around our necks. That's what being a premie was all about back then. But Maharaji stopped talking that game a long time ago. Now no one's blasting off to anywhere anytime soon. Now it's just a matter of feeling appreciation, clarity and being synchronized. Now, Maharaji doesn't even advocate trying to meditate all the time. Yet, even though that old bizarre intensity's gone, the anti-intellectualism's maintained in spades! See what I mean? And why? Well, call me skeptical but to me the answer's obvious: it conveniently frees Maharaji up from answering anything. 'Will he save you when you die? What exactly is this master shit after all? What did he mean when he said 'x' or 'y'?' All the questions side-stepped by trickign the premies into thinking that they've got a choice. They can either think about life or they can enjoy it. Which one do they want? Personally, I dig music AND I dig understanding as much as I can about the mystery of music. i dig sex AND I dig understanding as much about that too. Everything's like that. Too bad the premies have been dissuaded from all that pleasure. The pleasure of real Knowledge, as well as the pleasure of Maharaji's 'Knowledge'. No?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:07:11 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Maharaji's false dichotomy -- an anology Message:

Jim, You'd be surprised that Maharaji is a big fan of documentaries. He actually HAS a curious intellect, and he has mentioned that repeatedly, just before he goes off about thinking about water is not drinking water. But if there's a documentary on TV about water, he'd watch it and be fascinated by it. It's kind of a case of what's good enough for the goose isn't good enough for the gander; do what I say, not what I do. I bet if Maharaji read this article he'd find it very interesting. But at the same time he WOULD say that reading about music and the brain is not the same as listening to and enjoying it. Well, no fucking shit! That still doesn't mean learning stuff like this CAN'T be stimulating. It can be and it is, and it makes no sense to belittle it when that's the case. Yeah, Maharaji is bad news. If you ask me, he stunts growth. Too bad for people who get caught up in his trap.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:44:14 (EDT) From: Bobo Email: None To: Jim Subject: superficial? Message:

Music is one of the easiest ways to access the full scala of human feelings including those which are monopolized by religions and our unfamous rawat. Most of the music produced in DLM, including India however , has never escaped the level of superficial popular songs. Religion has produced the deepest, most moving music, like gospel, many classical masses, the Russian orthodox church music etc etc. Could it be that the intensity, or lack thereof is an indication of the level of substance of the religious experience?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:48:51 (EDT) From: Bobo Email: None To: Bobo Subject: Re: superficial? Message:

Because the part of the brain which gets to be used in the most intense appreciation or composition of music does not at all get triggered in the practicing of m.'s knowledge. It just get's bypassed: not good enough, failed. flunked!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:43:08 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: If music be the food of love Message:

... play on, Jim! Play on! I love that kind of science. It seems people like us (as far as can be ascertained from cold bones) evolved almost 250,000 years ago, perhaps on the coastline of Southern Africa. But ceremony, and fire, and art, and technology (by which I mean the combination of a variety of materials -- wood; leather; glue; bone; stone -- to make tools, not just the use of a shaped stone or branch) those sorts of cultural activity seem to be far more recent. For perhaps a half million generations people (with skeletons just) like us left no traces of having taken part in such activities. And then, around 30,000 to 50,000 years ago depending on location there was an explosion of sophisticated tool making; cave painting; art; and ceremonies (ceromonial burial of the dead in particular has left plenty of archaeological evidence). I find it hard to imagine, and maybe there are gaps in the picture presented by our current understanding of human origins. But the scientific evidence seems to be that although people like us have walked the earth for half a million generations, something changed in our brains (but not in our bones!) comparatively recently. Was it a hardware change, perhaps caused by a sexual preference for more aware mates? Or was it simply a cultural development like language? If the latter, why did it take people like us so long to achieve the development? Perhaps early modern humans really did have little awareness of themselves; not much of a self-reflective consciousness. Let me try to explain what I mean by that. Look at the painfully slow accretion of stone working techniques. Over hundreds of thousands of generations the techniques and sophistication of stone working hardly progressed. It's as if the people bashing the rocks were not able to stand back from their work and look at how they were doing it - why it worked, and why the tools so produced worked for their intended task. But then something changed - perhaps language - and the techniques used started to evolve at a fast and accelerating rate. It took us two hundred thousand years to go from shaped pebbles and sharpened sticks to being able to attach a carefully crafted barbed stone head to a wooden shaft using thongs of leather reinforced with glue. And then a quarter of that time to go from that composite tool to computers and symphonies! Perhaps we became able to reflect on our own activities, perhaps we developed modern minds and language long after we first developed human bodies. But whatever happened, you can be sure that, as you say ... too bad the premies have been dissuaded from all that pleasure. The pleasure of real knowledge and understanding and awareness of what we really are. [ Twelth Night, Act 1, Scene 1 ]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:12:47 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: NO! Message:

Jim, Maharaji has evolved. Now it's all about being in the moment with every breath. It's so beautiful Jim, it's like waking up and realizing that everything really is perfect and we just have to have the attitude of graditude and find some appreciation for the beauty of this life. We honestly thought we could take off into another world and leave our minds behind. The mind, in the circumstances, was just a dead weight around our necks. That's what being a premie was all about back then. This is a unformed and not yet-ripe attitude. If you had matured in Knowledge and evolved along with Maharaji instead of being stuck in concepts, in mind, you's see that Maharaji meant no such thing. The mind, the intellect, that mental power that allows one to--pilot a jet, for chrissakes-- Maharaji never had anything against that. He wants his premies smart, educated and worldlywise to help him spread the gift of knowledge to all peoples of the earth, all colors and all creeds. Jim, it's your bitterness and lack of clarity that are really holding you back. You need to get a grip on yourself and connect once again to that which is within, the holy name (or technique no 4, or is that 5...)

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:25:40 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: What happened to Pia's page? Message:

There was a whole team there, supposedly, standing up and being counted, working together with one noble ambition, to get the truth out and resist the forces of darkness. A team with departments, hierarchy, staff, volunteers, the whole bit. Then their 'leader' dies. Then, nothing. No tribute, no nothing. Not a word. Nothing. ??

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 01:22:48 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: What happened to Pia's page? Message:

Damn. I didn't even know she died. That was so fast! wow. how amazingly shitty of them not to say anything, either on her site or at EV or anywhere. We could do it, just to make a point of underscoring that individuals DO matter, that it isnt all 'Maharaji, maharaji, maharaji'. man, that's cold. i suppose they will say that WE were cold, because we actually had the consideration to engage Pia as a valid human being, and took her up at her word, with intelligent interest in discussing her views like valuable subjects. We weren't afraid to take her as she was. Death and weakness didn't muzzle us with fear and pity and taboos. I would wonder if those around her when she died, paid attention, and listened to find out if all those hours of harping on what to see at death culminated as we have been repeatedly told they would. I wonder what she experienced. I wonder if anybody was there with her. I wonder if she was conscious. I wonder whether maharaji played the part she thought he would when the time finally came? I dont mean this in a nasty way. I genuinely am asking. Wonder if anyone will ever tell us? Anth must be sad. He was personal friends with her. Has anyone contacted him?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:25:59 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: What happened to Pia's page? Message:

remembering PIA Let's not forget that Pia was the owner of the site, so all material is copyright and belongs to her thus it is a legal issue. you can't just go and post anything on her site without being authorised. Whoever will inheret her site will be the webmaster and it is up to that person to do whatever he/she wants, which is most likely greiving.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:22:15 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: janet Subject: Pia, may her sincere heart Rest in Peace [nt] Message:

with Love and sympathy for your grieving family, from da [allegedly hateful] exes (who were also da Lard of da Universe's premies, once upon a time, too) Pia, although your shooting star has expired in this earthly night, your ardent passion touched even those of us who felt obliged to set your claims aright, though whatever was said and done is now a fleeting past for you, let it be remembered here that most who disagreed once shared your view, and though we've moved beyond such rapt belief, we truly hope your soul has found long sought relief. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:23:40 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Re: Pia, may her sincere heart Rest in Peace Message:

with Love and sympathy for your grieving family, from da [allegedly hateful] exes (who were also da Lard of da Universe's premies, once upon a time, too) Pia, although your shooting star has expired in this earthly night, your ardent passion touched even those of us who felt obliged to set your claims aright, though whatever was said and done is now a fleeting past for you, let it be remembered here that most who disagreed once shared your view, and though we've moved beyond such rapt belief, we truly hope your soul has found long sought relief. Peace and lentils, ---

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:49:57 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Let Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 08:14:35 (EDT) From: Big Mo Email: None To: Jim Subject: first service Message:

This quote's been hanging about my HD for ages. 'Don't be discouraged by a failure. It can be a positive experience. Failure is, in a sense, the highway to success, inasmuch as every discovery of what is false leads us to seek earnestly after what is true, and every fresh experience points out some form of error which we shall afterwards carefully avoid.' -John Keats

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:10:38 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Let what? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:18:59 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: Let me learn how to not do that by mistake Message:

Sorry, bit of an unintentional knock-knock joke. hey, I just actually got off my ass, moved the empties and rode my bike for 15 minutes! Major development.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 18:39:15 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Try reading when you do that Message:

Hey, Jim, congrats on your big breakthrough. I know a guy who gets passed the boredom of excercise by reading while he's on his bike. Maybe it'll work for you too. Pedal while you read. Who knows? You could become a hunk AND a genius at the same time.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:28:37 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Let me learn how to not do that by mistake Message:

you got to be kidding? can't belive my eyes man. 15 minutes away from your computer, wow.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:49:57 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Let Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:21:58 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: All Subject: ATTN: FA/JHB Outing Stalkers Message:

If someone who accesses another poster's personal life and uses it on the forum against them, than that person should be outed. Please act accordingly

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:43:38 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Deborah Subject: How it works Message:

The information that can be gleaned from a poster's IP address is the name, address and email of the Internet Service Provider of the poster. The ISP can identify who the poster is and where he is dialing up from. That is, they can identify the person who has the internet dialup account. If the poster is posting from an internet cafe then that shows up and I'll have the name, address and email of the cafe. The cafe can usually identify the poster if a misdemeanour has occured. If the poster is using a proxy server then that too will show up to me and then I can report misdemeanours to the proxy server and they'll block the poster or report him to his ISP or the police or the CIA or FBI or Interpol. The info on Jim is public domain. It's not personal info.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:40:48 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Dave Subject: R2 Message:

Dear Dave, I am starting to become disconcerted by Richard 2. I feel he is threatening me whether he says so or not. I do not know who he works for. Could you please consider asking him to disclose who he is and who has sent him and if he does not do this can you then consider blocking him from this forum. Thanks Abi

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:01:48 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Abi Subject: He's a long way from you Message:

He's in California and he's harmless. I've already said here that threatening posts will be reported to the poster's ISP. The only dangerous person here is me, Abi.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:06:15 (EDT) From: Mitch Ward Email: None To: Abi Subject: That's disgusting Message:

and it's not the first time you've turned your paranoia onto a premie who's just trying to engage in harmless discussion. You try to taint them as an EV spy sent here to drive you to the wall, right? Hey Abi, you need to go see a real therapist and get this thing sorted and stop blaming innocent people all around you. By the way, your soul cannot be broken and nothing on this planet can stop you from seeking and finding love.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:03:41 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Mitch Ward Subject: HARMLESS discussion???? Message:

Richard II has cruelly gone after Abi since his first post. Your post is insulting! Abi, you need to go see a real therapist ... How DARE you?? Sir Dave, block this one too. I've had enough of these trolls, with names or without!!! Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:16:02 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Mitch Ward Subject: Re: That's disgusting Message:

1. when have I turned what you term my 'paranoia' onto a premie? 2. On what grounds do you think that R2 is engaging in a harmless discussion? 3. Who else have I accused of being an EV spy? 4. Who else have I accused of trying to drive me to the wall? 5. I need to see a therapist? Ask your Master to pay for one why don't you. 6. Who are the innocent people all around me I am blaming? 7. You are not an authority on my soul 8. There are many things on this planet that can stop people from seeking and finding love. Read up on child abuse.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:35:40 (EDT) From: Mitch Ward Email: None To: Abi Subject: You know the answers to all Message:

those questions. So I'll leave it between you and your conscience.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:22:32 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mitch Ward Subject: Right Back At Ya, Mitch [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:44:08 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Mitch Ward Subject: you can't take responsibility for your own words Message:

You can't answer my questions because it would reveal what you just said about me to be a lot of manipulative nonsense. That's on your conscience not mine.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:12:14 (EDT) From: Mitch Ward Email: None To: Abi Subject: Really? Message:

You can't take responsibility for your own life woman. You're a career victim who thinks that no-one else on this planet has suffered an injustice. So you throw your spite, fear and anger at anyone you decide deserves it. You're in great need of intestinal fortitude. Otherwise known as true courage.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:08:47 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Mitch Ward Subject: wow, what a creep! Message:

You still haven't been able to answer one of my questions to you. That takes courage I guess. I'm a career victim? How does speaking out about Jagdeo amount to a career exactly? And don't call me 'woman' you patronising creep of a man. I think no-one lese has suffered an injustice on this planet? Are you daft or just being vile for the sake of it. You know nothing of the work I do outside this cyberspace. In fact you know nothing about me at all apart from what happens here. I lack courage? So Mr brave macho man why not answer some of the very simple questions I asked you. Or haven't you got the guts (or intelligence) to do this? I throw my 'fear' at anyone I decide deserves it. Who do I throw my 'fear' at? God, some of these premie men are sickening creeps.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:37:28 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Dave Subject: Richard 11 Message:

is starting to frighten me.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:09:14 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Abi Subject: What? Message:

Abi, this weenie is an inept little coward who can't come out from the shadows and simply can't think straight. Frightens you? Yeah, I guess in terms of making one worried about the future prospects for humanity, maybe.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:53:05 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Dave Subject: Re: How it works Message:

I understand very well that the info on Jim is public domain. I was asking for ethical consideration on concern for all posters. It kind of defeats the purpose to use our real names and be accountable for everything we say when the fucken fried fish get away with their anomymouse bullshit. You make the ground rules, I don't. In the case of Richard II. He was and is not subtle with his veiled threats and consistent harrassment toward Abi. I knew from his very first post what his mission was about. Fine, you think it makes them look stupid. Well, has it occurred you to Abi is being abused and worn-down by this evil fuck. Is it more important that audience gets entertained, at the expense of better ratings.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:38:20 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Deborah Subject: It's ok Deb! Message:

anyone starts stalking my friend Deb...Why..I tell ya! There there Deb, do you feel better? Good!

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:55:21 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I don't do FA'ing Message:

But if you're talking about Jim and his legal work, the I'm sure Jim understands that public information is public information. Regarding outing, from my FA'ing days, it's almost impossible to out someone unless they've been stupid, like Charles Glasser. I still have no idea, for instance, who Catweasel is, so if Catweasel behaved badly (as of course he always does), I could not have outed him. John.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:44:08 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Here's your answer -- again, R2 Message:

Me: You look at the stuff you can easily deal with instead of the foo foo spiritual gobbledygook that's hard to argue about ('true self'? I don't think there even IS such a thing). You: There is a lot of annecdotal evidence to suggest 'true self' is NOT foo foo gobblygook. So you just forget about that do you, in favor of....of what? Me again: ...you start acting on the assumption that he's a **** throughout. You again: So you go on an assumption. ****, now that's pretty compelling! Say, I'm going to stop right there Jim. Your argument is a non-starter. ********* First issue: what to make of the 'anecdotal' evidence that suggests that 'true self' is real. Forget it! Like you, I'd imagine, I know a lot about all this shit. I mean, unlike most of my colleagues, for example, I was steeped in all this spiritual searching stuff for years. Years before during and even after being in the cult. So I know the market, yes I do. And what do I think? That there's nothing there. That the whole idea of 'true self' is naive, romanticism without a shred of substance. There is no more a 'true self' inside you than there is a baby Jesus or little blue Krishna. It's all religious nonsense. By the way, what, if anything, have you ever read about the current scientific study of the brain? Anything? See, I'm convinced that the whole idea of some 'true self' melts in seconds once you start turning the right pages. It's all a matter of 'knowledge', now, isn't it? Second issue: is it wrong to analyze something by assuming certain facts first? No, of course not. What's bad, though, and where the conspiracy guys get so confused, is when you build assumption upon assumption. Now that get's tricky. But assuming that Maharaji's a fraud (I think that was the word that CD censored.), that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You make the assumption and see how well the facts fit. Guess what, R2? They fit like a glove!

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:56:24 (EDT) From: R2 Email: None To: Jim Subject: And here's mine -- again Message:

My original challenge to you was for a “valid proof for whether someone who supposedly can show you your true self is a fraud?” You believing there is no “true self” certainly offers no proof of anything. And by you assuming because of this belief of yours that Maharaji claiming to show true self has to be a fraud, is FAR from being proof he is a fraud. You drew a blank on that one Jim. You asked, “is it wrong to analyze something by assuming certain facts first?” Well no. Analysis based upon certain assumptions is normal. It opens up possibilities of further exploration. But if proof is your goal, which is what I asked you for, then you’d better take all assumption out of the equation. Strike two! But then what is really telling about how you think is where you try to say there’s some indefinable line where just the right quantity of assumption is valid grounds for proof. You said what distinguishes Jim Heller from these whacko conspiracy guys is that you’ve found the right balance of assumption to mix with your beliefs. Fuck! Like I said your argument is a non-starter Jim. You better get reading cause you’re running out of time, fast.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:20:19 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: R2 Subject: My reply Message:

My original challenge to you was for a “valid proof for whether someone who supposedly can show you your true self is a fraud?” You believing there is no “true self” certainly offers no proof of anything. And by you assuming because of this belief of yours that Maharaji claiming to show true self has to be a fraud, is FAR from being proof he is a fraud. You drew a blank on that one Jim. You're confused here, bud (or should I say 'Charles'?). A number of ways. First, I don't accept the assumption in your question. I don't buy that there is someone in the category of people who 'supposedly can show you your true self'. That's a null set to me. You might as well be asking for “valid proof for whether someone who supposedly is a perfect master is a fraud?” (Or a unicorn, for that matter). (By the way, I really find your question itself poorly worded. What does that mean, that you're challenging me 'for valid proof' that xxxx? I don't get the wording. My answer's based on my assumption of what you mean from the context but your words are confusing.) Second, you misunderstood my answer even more fundamentally. I wasn't saying that I assume Maharaji's a fraud because he claims to be able to show you your true self (although, interestingly enough, I actually could have made that argument. I just didn't happen to.) No, that's not what I said at all. You, sir, need to read more carefully. I said: You look at the stuff you can easily deal with instead of the foo foo spiritual gobbledygook that's hard to argue about ('true self'? I don't think there even IS such a thing). -- my point being that there is all sorts of other stuff -- besides the 'true self' issue -- that once can consider to determine if the guy's a fraud. Now do you understand? You asked, “is it wrong to analyze something by assuming certain facts first?” Well no. Analysis based upon certain assumptions is normal. It opens up possibilities of further exploration. But if proof is your goal, which is what I asked you for, then you’d better take all assumption out of the equation. Strike two! I disagree. The problem here is that you're trying to prove Maharaji can do 'x' when 'x' is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to argue about. It's too subjective and not at all subject to normal proof and evidence. It's like saying 'Last night, Baby Jesus, came into my heart'. How can you argue about that? You can't. However, if you assume that I'm a liar and then test that hypothesis given the kinds of things you can consider, you can form an overwhelming circumstantial case that I'm lying about Baby Jesus. For example, maybe I'm a convicted felon who's defrauded people in every state in America, using one scam after another. Still doesn't conclusively prove that I'm lying about Baby Jesus but it's pretty damn close. No reasonable person, knowing all that, would ever believe my Jesus claim. That's what I mean by 'testing the hypothesis'. It's just another way of saying considering the evidence. Here, the evidence, sadly for you, is overwhleming that Maharaji can't be trusted. Not only does he make radical claims and promises but he refuses to be accountable for them years later. That, my friend, is the hallmark of untrustworthiness. (And please, spare me the cult bullshit on this issue. The fact is Maharaji refuses to be accountable to critical former followers. Period.) This, and many other reasons, confirm the hypothesis that he's a fraud. Got it? But then what is really telling about how you think is where you try to say there’s some indefinable line where just the right quantity of assumption is valid grounds for proof. You said what distinguishes Jim Heller from these whacko conspiracy guys is that you’ve found the right balance of assumption to mix with your beliefs. Fuck! Like I said your argument is a non-starter Jim. You better get reading cause you’re running out of time, fast. Reading? Reading what? Look, Glasser or whoever you are, you're really confused here as well. The case against Maharaji being a fraud in general is easily proveable. He claims that he never wanted to be a leader yet his most famous Peace Bomb satsang is a specific call to the world to see him as exactly that. And on and on and on. This kind of proof is conclusive on that point. However, vis-a-vis the more subjective issue as to whether or not Maharaji's fraud in the 'true self' department, the only proof is circumstantial and that, Charles (?), is indeed a judgment call. How much consistency do you need to see a pattern? It's inductive reasoning and yes, it's subject to gray standards of reasonableness.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:40:20 (EDT) From: R2 Email: None To: Jim Subject: And mine Message:

(By the way, I really find your question itself poorly worded. What does that mean, that you're challenging me 'for valid proof' that xxxx? I don't get the wording. My answer's based on my assumption of what you mean from the context but your words are confusing.) So you say your answer was 'based on [your] assumption of what [I meant]'. Now that is rich Jim! I asked a simple question in response to your question: Could Maharaji be a fraud? You chimed in, as usual, and said, 'hey that's easy [to answer]', and proceeded to fall flat on your face. Now in a rather long I-gotta-get-myself-outta-this-one post you say it's really my fault you couldn't give me a coherent answer. You 'find [my] question itself poorly worded'. Fuck off with your excuses. It's not my fault you feel you have to open your mouth ALL THE TIME Jim. It's not my fault you lead with your chin. And it's not my fault when you find yourself choking on your foot. I must admit though, I will take some blame for laughing at how stupid you look. Second, you misunderstood my answer even more fundamentally. I wasn't saying that I assume Maharaji's a fraud because he claims to be able to show you your true self (although, interestingly enough, I actually could have made that argument. I just didn't happen to.) No, that's not what I said at all. You, sir, need to read more carefully. I said: You look at the stuff you can easily deal with instead of the foo foo spiritual gobbledygook that's hard to argue about ('true self'? I don't think there even IS such a thing). -- my point being that there is all sorts of other stuff -- besides the 'true self' issue -- that once can consider to determine if the guy's a fraud. Now do you understand? Oh so you want to rehash the Lord thing again, and whether he ever said he was or wasn't. You are right to a degree Jim. It could be argued -- and it has on the ex-premie forums -- that somehow we got the impression he was, and 'see right here he said this, and he said that, and we sang you are my mother, father, step-brother, etc'. I'm not going to get into that except to say that if that is the debate, it can't be won by either side. YOU certainly have never won it. Of course I have never seen him quoted as saying 'I'm God', which is the other side of the argument. Or maybe you want to point out once again the stories of sex, drugs and rock'n roll and how any upstanding perfect master wouldn't dream of tainting their divine temple with the stuff us mortals consume every day. Hey, that's arguable too. How should a perfect master behave? Do you know? (Hey....that's silly you don't even think there's such thing as a 'true self'.) So pretending for a second you do believe such a thing exists, how should they behave? According to the rules of the Catholic Church? You know, I was thinking the other day. Back in the old days how relieved I was that Maharaji knew EXACTLY where I was coming from. Many premies used to say this too. He never made me feel like he was judging me but just kept saying, 'It's ok, the truth of who you are is deeper than all that'. And sure enough it was. So I don't know Jim. If you are a church lady, well I guess that stuff is hard to take. I personally love the comraderie. R2 said: You asked, “is it wrong to analyze something by assuming certain facts first?” Well no. Analysis based upon certain assumptions is normal. It opens up possibilities of further exploration. But if proof is your goal, which is what I asked you for, then you’d better take all assumption out of the equation. Strike two! Jim said: I disagree. What!!! You surely aren't saying you can prove something based upon assumptions. That my dear Jim is an oxymoron. That is idiotic. That is the basis for delusional thinking. Hmmmm. The problem here is that you're trying to prove Maharaji can do 'x' when 'x' is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to argue about. It's too subjective and not at all subject to normal proof and evidence. When talking about whether a person can show another person the deepest truth abouth themself, you are correct. It is inarguable. So why the fuck did you brazenly jump up and say it was easy? But that's not to say a person can't know beyond a shadow of doubt what and who they truly are. It just means they'd never be able to convince someone intent upon refuting it. So fine Jim, if you prefer to find your truth between the pages of your books, go for it. No skin off my nose. Here, the evidence, sadly for you, is overwhleming that Maharaji can't be trusted. Not only does he make radical claims and promises but he refuses to be accountable for them years later. That, my friend, is the hallmark of untrustworthiness. Not so Jim. He made a radical claim he could give me peace if I came to him with a guileless heart, and he kept that promise. The only people who gives a shit whether he said he's God or not are the idiots who think it matters. It doesn't Jim. You're just looking for a scapegoat. (And please, spare me the cult bullshit on this issue. The fact is Maharaji refuses to be accountable to critical former followers. Period.) This, and many other reasons, confirm the hypothesis that he's a fraud. Got it? He doesn't need to be accountable to you Jim? He gave you a gift you found no value in, and you chose to toss it. And now you've spent the last 15+ years festering over it. Somebody needs to be accountable for those years Jim but it's not him. R2 said: But then what is really telling about how you think is where you try to say there’s some indefinable line where just the right quantity of assumption is valid grounds for proof. You said what distinguishes Jim Heller from these whacko conspiracy guys is that you’ve found the right balance of assumption to mix with your beliefs. It's really funny how you tried to create distance between the assumptions you make and the ones the whakos make. Assumption on assumption I think were your words for them, as opposed to just one level of assumptions for you. Something like that. That's really rich Jim. I guarantee those whakos have the same thing to say about people like you. Could you tell if something you cherish as fact is really based upon an assumption? Of course you'll say yes because your that kinda guy, but I guarantee you can't always tell. YOU are in fact the obstacle to separating fact from assumption. Why? Because it takes a lot of integrity to be spot on Jim, and from what I've seen of you, well, I guarantee you can't. I'll go by your reasoning here. From the pattern I've seen of you in action it's pretty safe to say the foundation of your 'truth' is most probably seriously flawed. That's just inductive reasoning my friend.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:58:31 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: R2 Subject: Re: And mine Message:

You're an angry fuck, R2. You don't have any peace.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:56:58 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: R2 Subject: Wrong, wrong, wrong Message:

You're full of shit, R2. I'm not going to bother doing this with you anymore. M most definitely said he was God, let's start there. The evidence is conclusive and overwhelming. Take a look at the quote section of this site. If you can't admit that, you're not arguing in good faith and I've got nothing more to say to you.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:06:20 (EDT) From: R2 Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim Message:

You just got your ass kicked.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:27:00 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: R2 Subject: Re: Hey R2 Message:

In your imagination, dude. You're in your own little cult world and you have your own little cult values, cult rationalizations, cult everything. There's no talking with you. By the way, if you want to prove I just had my 'ass kicked' get an independent outsider here to support your opinion. You can't and you know it. I, on the other hand, can get one in a flash. All I have to do is ask one of the guys down the hall to stop in for a few minutes and read the thread. I wouldn't insult them by telling them what to think, they know that. I'd just ask them for their honest opinion. Want me to?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:17:46 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: R2 Subject: R2 = CG ?! Message:

Surely not! R2 is a fuckwit who cannot do simple propositional logic (if it involves his Master's fraud). CG is a big shot lawyer who cannot do simple propositional logic (if it involves his Master's fraud). I really don't see the connection, Jim. Unless it is that only a legal mind seeking to obfuscate the issue would write “valid proof for whether someone who supposedly can show you your true self is a fraud?' What can it mean. Let's see ... “valid proof for whether someone who supposedly can show you your true self is a fraud?' means “valid proof for whether X is a fraud?' (where X = 'someone who supposedly can show you your true self') In the case that X is Captain Prempal Rawat of Malibu, he is a known and documented fraud and liar. And that is true regardless of the existence or non-existence of a true self but putting to one side any particular instance of 'X', it means 'proof that X is a fraud' where X is a person who claims to be able to show a person his or her true self In the absense of proof of a true-self (which must be independantly ascertained) R2/CG's challenge is empty. Try the word 'unicorn' instead, here. “valid proof for whether someone who supposedly can show you your unicorn is a fraud?' 'Engram' does nicely here as well. So what R2/CG does is to advance two arguments by an ambiguous assertion, and then to switch between defending one or the other to make a smoke-screen. Perhaps he's in a cult.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:43:44 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: R2 Subject: Re: And here's mine -- again Message:

Give it up R2. james is a full on athienst now..not nothen/nohow/no one/no where is gonna change that. And I know for a fact the guy gobbles up books like cheetos! so you better be just as hungry or you will never proove to Jim any gobblelygoop what-so-ever. Just a friendly word of advise.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:42:45 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: All Subject: Joe, Jim, Timmi here's a DLM case for 'ya Message:

This is ha-farkin' larious. There is a case in the Supreme Judicial Court of Maine: Mark A. Dotter v. Maine Employment Security (1981) 435 A.2d 1368 I kid you not. This is a hoot. Dotter asked to go to a lot of programs over the years and finally had to quit his job to go to Hans Jayanti. Dotter won. It's a religious freedom case. Here's some snips: 'Since May of 1972 appellee Mark A. Dotter has been a member of the Divine Light Mission, a religious faith currently headed by Guru Maharaji. During the year the Divine Light Mission holds three major festivals: Holi, which is celebrated in late March or early April; Guru Puja, which is held in July; and Hans Jayanti, which falls in November. At these festivals members of the sect gather with Guru Maharaji to engage in spiritual discourse. Each festival lasts several days.' (at p. 1369) 'As a threshold matter the judge found that there was a direct relationship between Dotter's resignation and his desire to attend the religious festivals. Although the Divine Light Mission did not require attendance at the festivals and did not require its members to refrain from work during the festivals, the festivals nevertheless were a prominent aspect of the religion's form of worship. Dotter's choice to attend the festivals, although in a sense 'personal,' was based on an important tenet of his faith. Consequently, Thornton Academy's refusal to allow Dotter to attend the festivals placed a burden on the exercise of his religion.' (at p. 1371) Well, anyway, I thought y'all needed a laugh. Those with access to US law books might want to have a look. Not a religion, eh. It's on the books, pal. If it's not a religion anymore, why the TAX EXEMPTION. It's about $$$$$. LOLOLss Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:27:09 (EDT) From: timmi Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Re: Joe, Jim, Timmi here's a DLM case for 'ya Message:

Thanks, Francesca. I know premies quit their jobs to go to events all over the country and world. I have sat with bunches of them many times and they remember how they rented/borrowed/whatever some van to pack full of people and drive a zillion miles to see rawat. I have asked how they got time off from their jobs to do that so often. They told me they just quite whatever jobs they had --- if indeed they had a job at the time. I have asked how they afforded it. Lots of answers there! Some borrowed money from relatives, in-laws, anybody. Some used credit cards, though if they kept quitting their jobs, how they ever paid them off is a mystery to me! I do know one woman who constantly moans about her debt, though virtually every penny of her credit card debt is from going to see rawat. She is constantly unhappy and saying if she could only move to Malibu, everything would be okay. The 'best' way of getting money seems to have been to know a premie who had money, because they would always give away money so others could get to wherever the event was. The whole thing sickens me, and that disgust I have not even tried to hide from my husband. I have difficulty respecting anyone who would quit a job and/or go into debt for something like that. Especially when there is a family to support as there often is. Thanks for the information, Francesca. Thanks for letting me vent this crap!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:54:42 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: timmi Subject: You're always welcome Message:

I recently heard of a premie who borrowed money from people before Amaroo. Well, after Amaroo the premie who borrowed all the money quickly moved out of town. My other premie friend in Santa Cruz told me about a premie friend of hers (a little mentally unbalanced, this friend) who goes to so many programs that she is also in debt and broke, and was trying to find a way to get to Amaroo. As that premie argued in his case, and as the court agreed, going to those programs is a central part of the religion. When I first moved out of the ashram in 1982, I didn't have any money to go to a program on the east coast, and although I could have gone in debt, I didn't want to do that. In a meditation session one morning it occurred to me that it was more important to be able to connect with something essential in ANY given moment than it was to go to a program and see Maharaji. And yet I also realized that it was much easier to go in debt, take time off work, make travel arrangements, and travel all the way across the country than it was to sit right there, in that moment, on my cushion, and have it all. Confronting, that. I saw it was the cult of a contact high from M that many people had going. And that kind of relationship is not just limited to Maharaji. A lot of followers get that way. Francesca

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:50:00 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Come on now Message:

suchabanana wrote below: 'Whenever I have certain types of pre-cognitive dreams, they always happen in real-life. I've been keeping one of the heaviest dreams secret here for a long time -- it will scare the living shit out of many of the premies. Perhaps it's almost time for me to reveal what happens to the cult -- and is already happening right now.' Comments anyone? Or perhaps the prophet can continue...

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:34:21 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Bring it On!!!!!! Message:

Psychitzoid Paranoia really interests me.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:38:47 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: pre-cognitive dreams Message:

I've had a couple of these myself as well as 2 'psychic' i.e inexplicable experiences which were different. These all happened in my late teens early twenties bar one in my thirties. I believe you have had a strange encounter yourself which you described here & which I remember I took the piss out of at the time (not the experience, the interpretation). I do believe along with whoever said it that 'the universe is queerer than we can ever imagine', so I'm not inclined to dismiss such's claim as lunacy. He isn't trying to construct a theory around his 'impossible' experience. However, he's let the cat out of the bag & should certainly tell all now, especially if it means I can get Wm.Hill to give me 10,000 : 1 on Rawat choking to death on a spliff, or whatever. Pat Dorrity }) (don't know what this symbol means, it just took my fancy)

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:49:27 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Bin Liner Subject: Re: pre-cognitive dreams Message:

What was that strange encounter I had which I mentioned? Dead right, the cat's out of the bag. If someone in real life ever half tells a story like that, I never leave them alone until I've heard it all.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:01:59 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Strange Encounter Message:

Wasn't it you who saw the UFO being chased across London by the R.A.F helicopter?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:09:36 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Bin Liner Subject: Re: Strange Encounter Message:

Yep. I saw the UFO as did a load of other people that night. I had the advantage of my hand held telescope through which I got a brilliant close-up view of the craft. If only I'd had put my long telephoto lens onto my camera, I'd have had some good pics too. But at the time, I was too spellbound to try doing that. I was thinking that if I looked away, the thing might fly off.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:17:19 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Come on Such, give us the story }) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:40:48 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: sheesh,embarrassed right now. Message:

I made a lil' confession, and now inquiring minds wanna know. oy vey. gotta decide whether to spill mo' guts, without any ifs, ands, or butts. [been holding this lil' story back for 3 years] lemme think about this subject a bit -- the repercussions might cause da cult [and my extended fam] a fit. no 'magical thinking' by me was involved; just a humble question to my Creator after meditation, and then a frightful inner vision evolved. it frankly scared da holi ladus outa me, and so I can't imagine what it might do some poor lurking premie. So, maybe will post da Pat Halley cream-pie finale first! stay tuned... peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:33:45 (EDT) From: bill burke Email: None To: All Subject: Please notify forum of rawat events..nt Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:36:44 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: bill burke Subject: Re:rawat event! Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:04:08 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: bill burke Subject: hiya,brudda.yep,good reminder. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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