Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 11, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


EddyTheEagle -:- FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:58:43 (EDT)
__ Joe the former Catholic -:- It's Fatima, not Fatimah -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:58:37 (EDT)
__ such -:- uh, Michael Jackson? uhhh.... -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:33:02 (EDT)
__ EddyTheEagle -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:05:23 (EDT)
__ __ don puerco -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 06:01:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ wolfie:D -:- show me the way -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:21:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- show me ze way to ze Jim Morrison channeling.. -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:00:22 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Why would anyone believe this junk? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:13:52 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:06:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:24:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Exactly dude -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:48:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- So, following up... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:14:47 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:33:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Prof. suchabanana -:- John's anti-Christ was Nero -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:45:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I don't believe you, suchabanana -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:08:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- don't 'believe',just observe... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:48:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- We are all ears.?? nt. -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:58:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- strawberryfields forever...NT -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:10:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- turn off yer mind,relax and float downstream... [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:53:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ don puerco -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:54:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C)onlon -:- Sorry, Janet - tooo fruity -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:19:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Sorry, Janet - tooo fruity -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:38:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Sorry, Janet - tooo fruity -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:45:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- It's Platonic -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:32:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- I prefer a nice, dry whine w/my fruit, eh? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:05:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ wolfie -:- For Pat:C) -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:28:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, wolfie - nice compliment - Final Conflict -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:30:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're nuts [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:08:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- You're too generous. -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:38:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- or da power goes our:r.e. fridge [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:51:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- brain move-in--how: -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:40:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: You're nuts -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:26:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ EddyTheEagle -:- Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:01:24 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- been there, done it... -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:38:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ wolfie-) -:- yeah...life is too short....NT -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:43:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ EddyTheEagle -:- Re: been there, done it... -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:17:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bobo -:- cultural pattern? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:53:25 (EDT)

Carl -:- Change topic anyone? I had to laugh at myself . . -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:41:40 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Inculcated behaviours -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 19:24:23 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- I like foxy ladies sucking my toes -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:18:12 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Change topic anyone? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:04:49 (EDT)
__ __ Carl -:- The public eye -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:39:39 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- speaking of which -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:26:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: speaking of which -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:33:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- I've got acuitis -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:43:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- I'm glad the early ashrams were vegetarian -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:10:53 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Yes, but not much anymore -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:36:14 (EDT)
__ __ Carl -:- Life on the floor -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:57:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Life on the floor -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:33:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Nectar technique and juju -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 20:04:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bobo -:- Re: Life on the floor -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:09:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Could you elaborate please? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 20:19:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I'm surprised at you Jim -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:55:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- It really depends on who you believe.. -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 00:33:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Fossils -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:35:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Herbivores let their shit fall out anywhere -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:02:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I've Got Venison In My Freezer... -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:29:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Vegetarian -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:26:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Vegetarian -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:10:43 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Fix text: 'never' at restaurants or friends . . . [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:34:40 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- oh god-lost my whole post on this -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:20:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: oh god-lost my whole post on this -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:38:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: oh god-lost my whole post on this -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:38:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bobo -:- some advice please? OT -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:32:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: some advice-- OT-OK -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:43:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Please recompose! Your posts always fascinate! [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:36:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Please recompose! -OK- -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:29:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- READ JANET's POST above! FUN-NEE! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 10:42:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Now, that's ripe, Janet! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:51:50 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- 'Food' for thought AND editing -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:49:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Yippee about the edits! -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:34:38 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- 'Food' for thought AND editing -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:47:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I still sing arti every morning - yuk! -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:01:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- How about some Gershwin? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:51:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Here's a better song for you -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:42:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- One Foundation -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:12:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Didn't realize that -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 22:13:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Here's a better song for you -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:43:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Janet -:- Re: Here's a better song for you -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:51:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks Carl, Deb and Janet - you're angels -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:59:37 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Elan Vital sex offenders -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:22:58 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- Re: Elan Vital sex offenders -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 00:24:14 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Elan Vital sex offenders -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:05:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Long hair=KrishnaSukanand nt -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:36:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- If that's so, then this is important -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:24:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Mahatmas as venerated as M -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:13:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Parlokanad was pedophilia -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:35:40 (EDT)
__ Cutoff Age? -:- If 15 qualifies then Marolyn Johnson (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:48:57 (EDT)
__ __ Janet -:- Re: If 15 qualifies then Marolyn Johnson (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:55:01 (EDT)
__ __ Cutoff Age? -:- Re: If 16 qualifies then Randy P -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:50:36 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: Elan Vital sex offenders -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:46:51 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Where are those little boys now, I wonder? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 19:01:41 (EDT)
__ __ juan don -:- Re: Elan Vital sex offenders -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:56:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Years in San Antonio -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:14:29 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- By the way -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:24:10 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Yes, Maha is a sexual offender -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:21:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Yes, Maha is a sexual offender -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:52:39 (EDT)
__ __ Kaj -:- Re: By the way -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:37:27 (EDT)
__ __ Crabby Horse }( -:- Re: By the way -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:37:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Archives -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:54:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Yes -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:43:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Crabby Horse }( -:- thanks. -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:08:07 (EDT)

Bjørn E -:- The 'Gruondhog days' -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 07:38:39 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Funny you should say that, Bjorn... -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:52:29 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: The 'Gruondhog days' -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:00:21 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Yes, Time to quit. Go away. -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:23:48 (EDT)
__ Sir David -:- Maharaji's misunderstanding -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:04:54 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: Maharaji's misunderstanding -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:20:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- lied -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:52:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir David -:- Re: Maharaji's misunderstanding -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:36:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: Maharaji's misunderstanding -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 09:08:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Just a comment about the movie -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:36:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Kaj -:- Re: Just a comment about the movie -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:41:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: Just a comment about the movie -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:58:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- That explanation makes so much more sense -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:48:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It's a great film to watch, Gerry -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:37:28 (EDT)

Barry -:- To forum admin. -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:54:16 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Re: To forum admin. -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:11:49 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Yes I do. (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 23:25:57 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- fessing up -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 07:41:37 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Ok then, were all cool here! (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 23:27:19 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: To forum admin. -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 05:42:24 (EDT)

David -:- Premie threatens to kill Maharaji -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:13:13 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- I support that decision -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:28:55 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Right on, Sir Dave! [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 00:08:00 (EDT)
__ such -:- a bongo premie did that at LG, too -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:45:51 (EDT)
__ __ donner -:- Re: a bongo premie did that at LG, too -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:05:32 (EDT)

gerry -:- Rawat's looking bad--the cheap fucker -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 20:13:56 (EDT)
__ Catweasel LLB -:- You are Dreamin -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 09:50:43 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- You're clueless, Catweasal -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:02:23 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- What does it matter catweasel? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:44:35 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- No he's not -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:53:31 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- This is no dream, Cat, it's a nightmare -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:56:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: This is no dream, Cat, it's a nightmare -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:33:39 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Yup! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:52:34 (EDT)

Timmi -:- a church? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 20:13:41 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Re: a church? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:56:23 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Re: a church? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:30:37 (EDT)
__ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: a church? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:54:25 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:58:43 (EDT)
From: EddyTheEagle
Email: None
To: All
Subject: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
Hi everyone. Long time I have not posted here, because I guess I had nothing important to say..but I have checked the site from time to time..

Now I have come across something interesting. Aparently Fatimah's 3rd secret is connected to a young boy who starts a new religion and is a false prophet bringing false peace to the world....anyone has come across that????

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:58:37 (EDT)
From: Joe the former Catholic
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: It's Fatima, not Fatimah
Message:
The story is that the Virgin Mary gave those kids in Fatima, in Portugal, a letter to give to the Pope, which he wasn't supposed to open until 1965. He did open it and there have been various rumors about what was in it. It is all hogwash, however.

Anyhow, the youngest of the Fatima kids became a nun and died not all that long ago. She told this story about what our loving Virgin Mother told her:

Apparently, in between one of the appearances, one of the kids (a girl age 10), died. The next time the kids saw the Blessed Virgin, they asked her what had happened to this girl. The Blessed Virgin said that this girl was burning in pergatory, and that she would be there until the end of the world, at which time she would, mercifully, be released from hellish torment and be allowed into heaven. This story was cruelly laid on many of us Catholic kids about out evil natures and the pitfalls of sin. What could some 10 year old girl have done to cause her to burn in pain for probably millions of years? I dunno. She probably thought about sex or was disrespectful to a nun or something.

The Fatima story is a joke, used to foment superstition, the authority of the church and to keep kids in line. It's sad. It's something the Catholic Church ought to be ashamed of.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:33:02 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: uh, Michael Jackson? uhhh....
Message:
was it like ballyouguesswar?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:05:23 (EDT)
From: EddyTheEagle
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
This I quote is my refertence:

The United States utilized its Vatican moles that had been recruited and nurtured during WWII and soon obtained the entire Vatican study which included the prophecy. This prophecy stated that if man did not turn from evil and place himself at the feet of Christ the planet would self-destruct and the events described in the book of Revelations would indeed come to pass. It stated that a child would be born who would unite the world with a plan for world peace and a false religion beginning in 1992. By 1995 the people would descern that he was evil and was indeed the Anti-Christ. World War III would begin in the Middle East in 1995 with an invasion of Israel by a United Arab nation using conventional weapons which would culminate in a nuclear holocaust in the year 1999. Between 1999 and 2003 most of the life on this planet would suffer horribly and die as a result. The return of Christ would occur in the year 2011.

MAJESTIC 12
AND THE SECRET GOVERNMENT
By William Cooper

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 06:01:45 (EDT)
From: don puerco
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
wow, that's one for wolfie..he likes that stuff...ciao dear
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:21:26 (EDT)
From: wolfie:D
Email: None
To: don puerco
Subject: show me the way
Message:
to the next whisky bar......it's getting dark outside.........

ciao my e-mail friend...............wolfie....you know me quite well!

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:00:22 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: wolfie:D
Subject: show me ze way to ze Jim Morrison channeling..
Message:
hohoho
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:13:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: Why would anyone believe this junk?
Message:
If it's fiction you want, why not read a little Flash Gordon or something? Oh, what's that you say? It's not just fiction, that's not exciting enough, you want fiction that pretends to be real? Hm, yeah, I see. You want to be fooled! I've got it now.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:06:52 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
Wow, I never heard of Fatima's 3rd Secret, but in my conspiracy theorist days I encountered a lot of MJ-12 'for eyes only' documentation.

This MJ-12 also goes by XX or Dos Equis ;) for those in the know

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:24:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
Dos Equis. Damn near as good a Corona, and much better than Carta Blanca. The really neato thing about insider stories is that only an insider can verify them, and not even an insider can falsify them, because they just aren't 'insider enough.' So they're basically non-falsifiable. One problem: If it's non-falsifiable, it's worthless.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:48:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Exactly dude
Message:
Spent a lot of time getting papers and hearing stories from those that were apparently in the know. Meeting a lot of the players was tantalizing at first until I realized I couldn't trust them any more than the government.

Absolutely no critical thinking on the parts of many ufo/conspiracy-theorists. Because they believed in ufos and conspiracies, they gullibly believed everything ever written.

I spent time involved in ufo investigation for awhile. Worked with Fox TV on more than one occasion. Worked with Whole Life Expo coordinators. Eventually decided 'What is, is, I'm outta here.'

Open-mind is an double-edged sword. People got to watch their minds.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:14:47 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: So, following up...
Message:
Deborah:

The other thing that most people don't realize about non-falsifiable conditions is that it makes no difference whether they're true or not. In other words, if the condition can't be falsified then it's effects are already being factored in by the collective condition if true, or have already been discounted if untrue. The only change you might make by acting on the proposed condition *as if* it mattered would be to make things worse. Now, if we actually saw ETs we'd have some verification of the condition so acting on that knowledge *would* make a difference, and you could test your perceptions to discover if the 'fact' you've observed is, in reality, false (a delusion or misrepresentation or something). If you have nothing to falsify then you've got vapor, or less than vapor.

On the other hand, if your present condition is really crappy then it might pay you to bet on something else as long as the penalty for doing so isn't too great, and the potential rewards large enough. In effect, what you're doing is *making* an hypothesis falsifiable by imposing a time limit. So, if life is really lousy you might speculate that the present condition isn't worth preserving for it's own sake, and that your behavior is really just a prep for entry into another state or condition; of becoming 'one of the elect' or whatever. So, your behavior *might* make a difference to a later condition (and that effect provides evidence of falsifiability), but it's a gamble that doesn't really have any realistic odds. In that case 'not knowing' is the asset. This scenario only comes into play if you've decided that there's nothing worth preserving in your present condition.

So, the Calvinists were persuaded to work and save in order to produce a 'sign' of elect status, but once the side effect became an end in itself (wealth) then they ceased to act on their *faith*. The uncertainty no longer had value and lost it's power to motivate.

I guess people might come to such a conclusion even if they happen to have wealth and security, if they tend to take that for granted. In fact 'Maslowe's Hierarchy of Needs' seems to suggest that we rise to a plateau when motivated to fill a need, becoming dissatisfied with that condition, and then move to the next plateau. At this point we might decide to take a sort of collective risk on the unknown, provided the situation is spelled out clearly enough and we have a sufficiently low assessment of the present. We might believe a charismatic leader who suggests that we can dispense with the rulebook in order to take the next step, for no better reason than simple boredom or a general feeling of malaise. That's why life has to not only be secure, but interesting and stimulating.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:33:01 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
in 1990 i met an extraordinary man who had been high up in the CIA and the Pentagon, who also was a Native American Shaman and a UFO contactee. I stress, not an 'abductee', but a fully cognizant, intentional visitor on their ships whoaccepted the voyage more as an official emissary from our government to meet with them, than a hapless frightened citizen snatched by surprise.
Soon after my relationship with this person began, my experiences began to open in realms and ways i never could have previously believed.
I began to get future visions, not alone, but with two young kids of age 20, who cross confirmed that they saw waht i was given to see, at the same times the visions were brought to us.
We became cnversant with angels, cosmic messengers, middle of the night phone calls from this man to alert us that we would be getting such information and to watch for it, and things that were shown to us were later echoed by parties we met out in the public, who had no direct knowledge of what we were seeing in our tiny enclave. Inexplicable matches, like the names of beings who adressed us, not commonly known to the rest of the world, events , dates, chains of causation, that we had not seen in any external reference like books or the internet before they were shown to us.
It got especialsly intense through1991 and 1992. My friend was called away during the Gulf War at the height of the conflict, and later returned and confessed to me that he had been sent on a mssion to corner saddam in his underground bunker and take him out if he could. He rued to me that he had gotten his gun right in the guy's ribs, and found he couldnt pull the trigger. He said he felt an immense presence commanding him not to do it, that God would not be pleased and did not want it solved like that, so he ended up desisting from it.
That's just one of thousands of moments like that, which filled out days then.
After having been brought into this strange period of apprenticeship, two of us moved to Los angeles in 1993, at nothing less than a direct visitation from the Archangel Gabriel and a vision of Mother Mary. Over our personal misgivings, we yeilded and made the move. This wasn't your everyday experience, and our search for a new apartment wasn't meeting with any success where we were. A typical episode would be that we would have the money in hand and the manager's guarantee that when we got over to the new place in 15 minutes, the place was ours, he was reserving it for us alone to move in.
We'd get there and he wouldn't be there, and we'd wait all night in the freezing cold for him to come back, only to finally see hi return at midnight, telling us he got an emergency call to go to the hospital, that his brother had been in a car crash, right after we had hung up on our previous call, and that he was sorry, but a girl had shown up in her packed car with money, as he had left the building for the ER, and she needed a place immediately because she had just driven cross country and had nowhere to spend the night, so he took her cash and let her have the place he had guaranteed to us.
all in all, we took it as a sign that our Messengers meant business, and there was no point in resisting their orders to go where we were indicated.
Obviously, the dates and events named in your cited passage did not take place as prophecied. We received them, too. Not only from our Messengers, but we heard more details when we worked the Whole Life Expo in the early 90's, and listened to lecturers, leafed through some books in their stalls, and talked to other exhibitors in the hall.

Like most, we had questions and doubts as to the veracity of all these extreme scenarios we had been urged to believe and go by, when they failed to materialize on schedule as foretold.
Our guides gave us the explanation that the crisis was successfully averted, on many fronts, in part thanks to our collective willingness to act as we had been notified to, as well as many other parties we would never know about.
I confess that in this aftermath, I grew cynical and felt i had been made a fool of, and rather than feel honored and special and be willing to continue in it, I instead got bitter and hurt and injured, and cut off my willingness to be a part of it any further. Understandable, since the predicted holocaust did not take place, and it is hard to appreciate something that doesnt happen over whatever actually does.

I have since learned of a number of things that brought us a hairsbreadth away from these described scenarios, and were averted.
One such came right to my backyard. The hired man who did odd jobs around our proprty for the landlord was mysteriously called away in the middle of the sumer for an unspecified number of days. He had been a Navy Seal, 20 years ago. He told his mom not to worry and not to grieve if he didn't return. When he got back, he was distant and preoccupied and not himself. I gently coaxed him into confiding some of what he was brooding about. In bits and pieces, he let on that he had been called away to assemble and train a team of explosives experts and enlisted men in as short a time as he could muster. His commanding officer of 20 years ago had tapped him from the Reserves, as the bestsuch man he had ever trained, and wanted him to turn out a company of men as good as he was, on very short notice.
It was the first time he had been called back since discharge, 20 years ago.
He allowed as to how they had been flown across the world. He let me play 20 questions with him about the details, giving only yes and no answers, to technically preserve his vow of secrecy. If i guessed, that was ok.
fom my Q's and his nods, the story emerged that our national intelligence had confirmed that middle east terrorists had mass nuclear weapons of destruction aimed at Los Angeles and several other major US cities, set to go off shortly--within hours or days--and a lightning strike to take them out before they could be armed, launched and detonated, along with their operators, was mobilized. My companion reminisced that they had droped x tons of explosives on the forces. 900 plus humans were now dead by his hand, and his men's. He commented that it was strange to be back in los angeles on a hot summer day, with everything as usual in the neighborhood, knowing that he was the only one who understood that all this would have been a vast radioactive crater, had his mission failed, or he not been called, or his country not known or acted in time. He gazed off at the horizon and stared, trying to forgive the locals their complete ignorance of what they had just been spared, and would never know how close they came.
No one believed his account, save for me. the owner scoffed and said he was lying. but when the cops stopped him on the beach for drinking among the homeless vets, he invited them to call their watch commander or chief and ask who he was. warily, they did so. and were clearly told to leave him the hell alone and let him unwind, however he chose to. the cops hung up and stared at him and backed away and drove off. it happened with a second patrol car, the same way. He told me his CO had asked each of them if there was any favor he could obtain them in thanks for their doing their jobs, before he dismissed them back to their civilian lives, and this was the favor he had requested be done for him. and he got it.

so as for crises averted, horrendous scenarios that never materialized, scoffing in cynical doubt--I know the terrain well.

The child and the religion is likely not Maharaji. supposedly he will be an arab, the son of a staggeringly wealthy arms merchant in the middle east, not commonly known to the public.
The boy was born in feb 1963, acts now as an apprentice and messenger, going around the world on his father's business, learning the trade and getting known to his customers, in preparation for the conferring of authority and trust and inheritance of the power. He is privately religiously schooled by an islamic fanatic, who wears a red jewel on an ornate breastplate, and another in miniature, on a ring that his believers kiss when they do obeisance to him. this boy was schooled privately in switzerland, and will come into such a position of economic power that no transaction on earth will be able to take place without going through him to effect it. [the mark of the beast]. he will present himself to the world as if a benign shopkeeper who can get you whatever you need, and peopel will regard it as a lifesaving benevolence, as circumstances will be such that you have no choice and no other way to get what you must.
this is the description of the antichrist. he is already born and moving in the world. we dont know him yet. but he's out there. learning.

In our encounters with the Messengers, we also made personal acquaintence with visitations from Jesus, [yes, that Jesus}and were able to ask and question him directly about things. He made it clear that he and his associates were not poised to rescue us like whining babies, thaqt he was not coming back until we rose up and took responsibility for ourselves, made our own determination, individually and collectively, to throw off what was unright and establish the life of human beings on this world the way we knew in our souls our creator intended us to live and treat each other and the world we live on.
in other words, no one is gonna save your from yourself/ves. you have to do it. once you do, i can return.
we asked him for a date or timeline for his return. he said give or take, about 30 years from today, depending. (that was new year's 1992)

I am interested in anything more you have on the thrid revelation of Fatima, BTW.
and because of my own cynical nature and strange experience,, i receive it all now with a wary stance.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:45:08 (EDT)
From: Prof. suchabanana
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: John's anti-Christ was Nero
Message:
r.e. biblical Revelations of the hermit John in the Greek isles:
and the number 666 was the underground Nazarene cult's numerology code for Nero's names.

Over the years, I've met a lot of people claiming stuff like: abuction by the greys, implantation of devices in their bods by ETs, knowing who the hit-men were in the JFK assassination, a guy claiming to be Amun-Ra da sun god, etc., even a kid con artist from N. India claiming to be the living incarnation of God-messiah - maha.

Part of your account reminds me of da Celestine Prophecy [James Redfield's fiction book and capitalist pseudo-New Age trip now].

Janet, you wrote: ' i receive it all now with a wary stance'. Yeah, be here and now. There are so many trips out there, so many seductive illusions -- the only thing real for each of us is our own life.

PS speaking of Jesus: I was in a relationship one time with a Catholic who went away on a crusise ship for a few months, and even though Jesus wasn't my guru, I prayed to him at bedtime and asked him what was happening with this person. I fell asleep and had a dream that the person was having an affair with this young Jewish guy on the ship. When she came back the next month and was staying at my apartment, I found a letter she misplaced talking about her shipboard romance with a Jewish college student.

Another time when m. had announced there was going to be Hans Jayanti somewhere, but that he wouldn't announce where it would be until the week before [1978], m. appeared to me in a dream and told me he was gonna have a program in Rome at the Palazzo della Sporte, where I used to go to see the Stones and the Who back in the 60s. I told da premies - and they laughed at me. A week later the announcement finally came that the program was gonna be exactly as in my dream.

I have had pre-cognition and revelatory dreams/visions for many years. Sometimes they're hard to interpret, but after awhile they become clear -- like the biblical dreams of Joseph in Egypt.

Whenever I have certain types of pre-cognitive dreams, they always happen in real-life. I've been keeping one of the heaviest dreams secret here for a long time -- it will scare the living shit out of many of the premies. Perhaps it's almost time for me to reveal what happens to the cult -- and is already happening right now.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:08:55 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Prof. suchabanana
Subject: I don't believe you, suchabanana
Message:
I don't believe that you can possibly have any prophetic knowledge of what happens with the cult. Sure we can hazard guesses. Maharaji will die eventually, that's for sure. Just like anyone else, he could die before his allotted time by accident or illness. Or he may live to a ripe old age and spend his last years flying kites with his great grandchildren in some haven.

Nobody really knows and if we guess, someone might guess it right. However, if you really claim to have foreknowledge of what happens, why not tell me? My email address is on this post. However, if you post it here on this forum, just remember that prophesies of doom can be self fulfilling, if you know what I mean.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:48:49 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: don't 'believe',just observe...
Message:
After all, I am just a lil' messenger...
[I did not ask to be a messenger.]

those who have ears, will hear, those who have eyes, shall see it, and know it to be true... know ye not? it has Already been coming to pass, before our very eyes...

ok, Coming Soon to a forum in yer neighborhood: da [formerly secret] Revelations of da lil' swami.

And ye shall know it by a sign; first, da EV press release r.e. da pedophile.

Second, da 3rd and Final Letter to ex-premies from Patrick Halley.

[Be vigilant, my brother knight.]

and

Third, da Revelations of Suchabanana.

+ more to come...

Be patient, my brother knight. Good things come to those who wait. I myself have quietly waited 3 years to reveal this vision, which has already been in the process of slowly manifesting on this material plane of existence.

Verily, Woe unto the deceiver[s]! But the guileless children who have suffered, yet persevered in goodness, shall be redeemed.

I will share the vision, in good time. Fear not, my brother. We only need to come from a good space ourselves, and continue to prepare the way, for the sake of those yet to come...

The energy that has created us has also blessed us with the gift of mirth and some humour, too. Let us therefore rejoice in good fellowship and support now for each other, despite any trials and tribulations, from any pain or sadness in our lives to newfound growth and the vision of joyful awakenings...

For now, 'Without levity, no levitation' -- suchabanana

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:58:10 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Prof. suchabanana
Subject: We are all ears.?? nt.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:10:11 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: strawberryfields forever...NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:53:05 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: turn off yer mind,relax and float downstream... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:54:26 (EDT)
From: don puerco
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
me oh my, i take off my invisible hat..such astounding news from the
beyond, hopefully the lil arab boy (of course !!!!!!) will screw up
all those zionist assholes in palestine as well...
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:19:35 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)onlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Sorry, Janet - tooo fruity
Message:
Couldn't get past the second paragraph eventhough I'm a tropical fruit who feeds vegetables to nuts - well, and fruits.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:38:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)onlon
Subject: Re: Sorry, Janet - tooo fruity
Message:
I thought it was an impending episode of *Earth: Final Conflict*. But then the Taelons never showed up.

[Is Jonathan Edwards Fantasy or SciFi?)

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:45:29 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Sorry, Janet - tooo fruity
Message:
sounds it, huh.
i dont watch that series.

my take? its all huckerism now. i wanna pinch his balls for doing it.
he shoulda stuck to being riker.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:32:29 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: It's Platonic
Message:
Janet:

I've been affected by people like that as well. I've come to conclude that there's a sort of weakness in the human psyche that induces certain people to become tyrants. Plato discusses this in *Republic* in terms that sound uncannily like modern psychology. Essentially the tyrant adopts an insignificant satellite personality as the whole self, and then promotes it as an overwhelming 'exception' to the rules we deem appropriate for actual humans. In other words, they deliberately promote a characature of themselves not only as the total reality of *their* personality, but also as an *expression* of the whole of humanity.

Such people may exhibit a form of gullibility themselves, in the sense that they often believe people to be 'followers' simply because they say so. They fail to see how anyone could resist their charisma, and yet fake it. Drugs like cocaine seem to help too. A disproportionate number of the people I've known in this condition use cocaine. It would be totally pathetic were it not for the fact that there are so many people ready and willing to follow such persons.

As for *Earth: Final Conflict*, I don't think anyone watches it. It used to come on at 1:00 AM after the Sunday lineup, but due to lack of sponsorship has now moved to the SciFi channel. It has a cult following. I think it's a pretty good show, and manages to deal with many of the weaknesses of self-deception that afflict humanity, in a fantastic sort of way. Doubt it will ever catch on with the general public though. Not schmaltzy enough.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:05:06 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat:C)onlon
Subject: I prefer a nice, dry whine w/my fruit, eh?
Message:
if you had tolerated the cosmic stuff to the very bottom, you would have been relieved to see that I finally got bitter and bruised [more fruit analogies-anal pun not intended until i saw it in retrospect-and i love retro, don't you?]
--that was just after i passed the sweet and ripe stage and dropped off the tree--
and today i am wary and slow to believe anything that comes at me in a similar manner. I'll listen--but guardedly.

give it another shot Pat. try to read it--but with some distance. I think you'll be relieved to reach the end and see that your faith in me is restored after all.

i swear, I'm not making this yo. I'm just telling it the way it hapened to me. I have witnesses to corroborate--and some of them were hostile at the beginning. Nowadays, we're all older and wiser. But I gotta report it the way it actually went down.
Believe me--nobody was more suspicious than i was. I put that puppy through every test I had, and fought it the whole way, and it still kept happening.
I'm pretty sure it would start again in a second, if i let it. But i won't be anybody's chump again.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:28:55 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)onlon
Subject: For Pat:C)
Message:
Hi Pat,

I forgot to say, it's nice to have you hang around that place. It feels more at home for me. You are like the kitchen in a house, I can smell the food and the wine.

ciao........wolfie:p

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:30:12 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Thanks, wolfie - nice compliment - Final Conflict
Message:
How nice that you think of me like a kitchen. It's my favorite place. It has a practical purpose and is full of practical gadgets and turns simple fruits, nuts and vegetables into delicious concoctions.

The funny thing is that I have just begun to watch ''Final Conflict.'' It cames on at 2am so I record it and watch it the next day after I get home from work. After a glass of red wine and a joint it is very entertaining and nicely made.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:08:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You're nuts [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:38:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're too generous.
Message:
There are just too damned many boxes in this forum. Hopefully I'm typing in the right one this time. Has anyone asked the site designers if they could possibly make things *more* confusing?

How about this stem cell human cloning controversy, huh? I'm going to spec a cloned Scott T. body, at peak sexual maturity, that I can keep in the fridge in case I get tired of having people call me 'sir.' Only problem is how to spec the brain. I mean, what if someone is home? Could I still move in? I wouldn't want to be halfway through the download and find that the hard disk is out of space.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:51:34 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: or da power goes our:r.e. fridge [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:40:39 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: brain move-in--how:
Message:
oh: for that, you just need to work out a walk-in agreement with the occupying being, so that they can hold the body for you until you're ready to effect the transfer. they'll keep it warm for you until the hour of displacement takes place, and then you'll have to undergo a knd of out-of- body teporary shock, like a fall off a ladder or an induced coma, so that you can take over and they can withdraw and return to the nonphysical plane.
no bigger. it happens all the time. study cases of extended amnesia.
i say, go for it.
now those raelians--they've good the right idea!
what sentimental humanitarians they are. in fact, that gives me an idea.....
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:26:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You're nuts
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:01:24 (EDT)
From: EddyTheEagle
Email: eddy@eagleland.net
To: janet
Subject: Re: FAtimah's 3rd Secret
Message:
Jesus...you guys are all nuts...did M do that much damage to your brains...Councillers must love this site...I should open an ex premie councilling parlour..lots of money to be made here I see
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:38:21 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: been there, done it...
Message:
looks like time already expired on some of that apocalyptic stuff -- hope you haven't become one of those bored-again fundumbmentalists.

That's just more cult stuff and conspiracy theory food for da mind! haha

life is too short to get involved with doomsday prophecies -- we all gonna die, anyway!

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:43:58 (EDT)
From: wolfie-)
Email: None
To: such
Subject: yeah...life is too short....NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:17:16 (EDT)
From: EddyTheEagle
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: been there, done it...
Message:
Actually I am not even Christian....bu its amazing that they talk about this boy who sets up a new false religion...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:53:25 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: cultural pattern?
Message:
There are several movies about child emperors or religious leaders, Of course there is the Dalai Lama, and boy Jesus in the temple.
I think our world culture anticipates a genuine saviour to be self talented and not to be educated as a leader. In rawats case: his charisma clearly diminished with age( even the most hateful exes, like me, are moved by rawats pictures of before 1970.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:41:40 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Change topic anyone? I had to laugh at myself . .
Message:
Anybody else find themselves doing odd remnant behaviours from various cult conditionings?

For example, yesterday noon, standing at my kitchen counter, I made myself a lovely sandwich: a perfect avocado and just-picked tomato sandwich on lightly-toasted pumpernickle bread, with a smear of garlic hummous, a romaine lettuce leaf and a small dollop of creamy parmesan salad dressing. It was a masterpiece!

Before biting into it, I lifted the sandwich up before my face and toward my 'third eye', and with closed eyes and a wordless prayer, paused for a moment in appreciation for being alive and in gratitude to the giver of all life.

Then, chow down. Yum!

I don't do this 'third-eye' routine very often (or say 'grace' for that matter), never at restaurants or at friends' houses, although I may consciously pause for a moment of patience before digging in.

But once in a while the little 'third-eye lift' just happens; it comes from 'auto-pilot'. I found myself in the middle of doing it and then snapped to attention that the action came from the past.

Now, here is the thing: it didn't seem harmful or too weird. In fact, it felt centering and pleasant. I did not visualize or 'pray to' any guru or master. It was just quick little breathing focus of appreciation.

Now, one tries to be attentive and 'mindful' of one's actions (in the Buddhist sense, I guess). But I know this little action came from early ashramic conditioning. I mean, I didn't learn or do this back with Ma and Pa. There, instead, we had 'saying grace': 'Bless these gifts which we are about to receive, from thy bounty, through Christ, our Lord, amen.' Something like that.

I guess my question is, does anyone else feel that these inculcated behaviours (others might be ritual curtseys before royals, bowing to social superiors, feet-touchings of masters and elders, genuflecting in church before altars, making the 'sign of the cross', etc.) are helpful or ludicrous? Or what??

This opens up to other questions of body language and the largely unconscious way we creatures with our faces and gestures communicate with each other. At least some of those expressions and gestures are learned behaviour. And become automatic.

But I was eating that sandwich alone! Would 'God' notice or care about our rituals, however conscious or otherwise we may be of them? I expect that they are developed to help us. But when do they become rote and/or enforcable by guilt and then a trap?

I would bet most folks can remember verbatim the bedtime prayers (if you were trained that way) your mother or father taught you when you were just learning language.

Related questions: role of guilt in spiritual practice.

Just some food for thought or discussion . . . !

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 19:24:23 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Inculcated behaviours
Message:
Almost a year ago we moved our kitchen around & the rubbish bin ended up on the left side of the fridge whereas before it had been on the right. Annoyingly for ages after I quite often found myself ready to can something in the wrong place, having gone right instead of left.

Ludicrous yes helpful no, but no-one else was involved so it doesn't matter.

The things you mention apart from the 'grace' action with the sandwich, are not necessarily either ludicrous or helpful(not sure what you mean by helpful)just appropriate or inappropriate.

I wouldn't curtsey to royalty because I'm not a woman.
I wouldn't bow down to my superiors because I'm not Japanese.
I always dip my fingers in the font & bless myself when I enter a catholic church because I was brought up to do that.
I would have no idea what to do in a synagogue for example & so wouldn't do anything. No big deal.

In the very unlikely event that I'm ever forced to kiss the feet of the master I shall attempt to rub noses, shake his hand & kiss him on both cheeks. When I'm dragged away I'll make the sign of the cross & shout, allah akbar motherfucker I need a bacon sandwich, whilst waggling my tongue.

I'm on your side God if you exist: Rawat Fuck Off.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:18:12 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: I like foxy ladies sucking my toes
Message:
NOT!!! hahaha! but a lil' foot massage for achy-breaky ol' swami would definitely be ok, though.

I keep a chair reserved for the Second Coming, that no one is allowed to sit in. NOT!

Actually: not from da cult [or from anywhere else], but 1) I usually do a spontaneous silent inner prayer and thanks before eating. 2) I always pray silently to my creator/sustainer universal energy and/or meditate a bit before sleepytime, too. Have done so for a long long time.

No guilt involved in these personal private practices -- simply Lifestyle Choices. Freedom of choice.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:04:49 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: Change topic anyone?
Message:
Hi Carl,

I think the religious conditioning is to ask god to bless the food. But on the practical side, pausing to feel our breath, centering ourselves and shaking off the daily anxiety is a good way to begin eating. It will aid our digestion in the process. So, practically and perhaps scientifically speaking, the food is like blessed.

Funny that you should ask that, I was having dinner the other evening with a fellow student. I approached the table (University cafeteria) before she did, I paused, closed my eyes & meditated for a moment. At he same time, I questioned my behaviour because it reminded me of cult and/or religious conditioning. I'm gun shy about anything that smacks of religion or conditioned behaviour these days.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:39:39 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: The public eye
Message:
Hi Deborah,
Re gun shy, I hear you.
It seems to me that so much of premie-dom is/was about years and years of peer pressure, ambition and the oft-mentioned 'race for grace'. And the conformity, knowing the party line, and the 'synchronicity' as I understand it was later called.
Small wonder that it has taken some of us a while to not give a shit what anyone else thinks. One's relationship with the sustaining life force (or whatever) doesn't need to be approved of by anyone else. That includes any priest, pope, guru or goofball.
If the urge to meditate is genuine and not as a guru-fear-guilt trip, then great! The inner life is ours anyway. As someone recently pointed out on the Forum, the way in is simple and is in public domain. It should have always been freely shared, and not shrouded in secrecy and perpetual financial obligation.
I think it's very ok to feel and be grateful to the LifeForce, lunchtime, anytime, eyes closed, half-lidded, or wide open.

Bon appetit,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:26:40 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: speaking of which
Message:
I like it fairly calm when I eat -- when I'm around other people, nervous or anxiety-ridden chatter gives me indigestion. I also always seek out the quietest table or area at a restaurant.

I still like eating with chopsticks sometimes [whenever eating Chinese, Thai, or Vietnamese food]. Taking smaller bites and chewing thoroughly aids digestion, too.

People eat too fast, in a hurry nowadays -- a fast-food mentality. Years ago, I remember in France and Italy having nice long relaxed dinners and then pleasant conversations with friends.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:33:17 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: speaking of which
Message:
Yes such, I agree. But don't you like unquiet settings some time. Italian restaurants sometimes are loud, chatty, but conducive to fun, excitement. I eat well under those circumstances.

For me the bottom line is attitude. Quiet, or fun and boisterous is good. Nervous, anxious and unconscious shoving of food is not.

When I am at a restaurant to dine, even when I;m by myself which most of time, I won't order the next appetizer or entree because of the tendency of restaurants to hurry you. I like to sit for 15 minutes sometimes and enjoy my wine before ordering the entree which will usually take 20-30 longer.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:43:55 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I've got acuitis
Message:
from too many years in bands. loud noises hurt my ears. I also won't eat in any restaurant area where people are smoking.

I also don't like rich, creamy sauces -- can't digest 'em. still a vegan [but confess to some lacto: a lil' skim milk in da chai and da occasional cheese sandwich or low-fat pizza, yesterday ate an ice cream cone]. Those are my food vices. like a pint of ale or glass of wine, too.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:10:53 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I'm glad the early ashrams were vegetarian
Message:
I experimented with a vegetarian diet long before K, and found it sensible on many levels and energizing.

It's been a constant, even after having left the ashram a long time ago. That is one of the good things about the whole deal, at least for me.

I was shocked at one point to hear about M eating meat. Don't know if it is true, but, if so, I would assume the Indian traditional Hindu community would be rather upset were they to learn of it. They take that stuff very seriously.

There was a recent case about an Indian fellow suing McDonald's for using a lard product in the preparations of their french fries. He had been assured that it was a vegetable oil, and freaked when he learned the truth. He had to go back to India to be ritually cleansed of the pollution, something like that. (Gee, I may have heard about this on the Forum, come to think of it. Maybe from one of your posts!)

Best wishes to the suchmeister,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:36:14 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Yes, but not much anymore
Message:
I STILL to this day (I left the cult 17 years ago), I find myself sticking my tongue back down my throat and into my nasal passage doing the 'nectar' technique, which I think is now 'technique number 4'. I experience no more 'nectar' now than I ever did, which is nothing but some yucky nasal drip sometimes, depending on the allergy season.

I spent so many years, constantly trying to do the nectar technique (Padarthanad and other mahatmas said that if you were doing nectar technique you were 'automatically' doing holy name (now technique number 3), which, at that time, we were supposed to try to do 24 hours a day, as Maharaji had a commandment that we were to 'constantly meditate and remember holy name.'

Maharaji quietly dropped that commandment as some point, without explanation, as usual, and pretended it was somebody else's stupid idea, probably the premies, as usual.

I also still, even with friends sitting around the living room, have a desire to sit on the floor cross-legged, and I even do it in chairs. A couple of times I found myself doing it at business meetings. Weird. Again, I spent so many years sitting on the floor in half-lotus position (thousands and thousands of hours sitting in 'satsan' and thousands of hours in meditation), that it also became a habit that's hard to break.

I never did the 'food to the third eye' thing, even when I was a premie.

And when I see a picture of Maharaji, I react to it. It's an image burned into my mind, seeing as I sang Arti to his picture and pranamed to it also thousands of times. But those are older pictures. The pictures of him today, I hardly recognize. He looks like Sung Myung Moon or some kind of jaded, middle-aged, Asian business man with a bad haircut. Now I think he's gotten kind of ugly, where he used to be somewhat cute in the early years. I think partly due to his alcohol abuse for so many years, and living a pampered lifestyle in which he has been waited on hand and foot for his entire life. But there you have it.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:57:06 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Life on the floor
Message:
I can relate to that! So many years crosslegged on the floor. Sitting in a chair or on a couch was practically sinful. And one NEVER sat on the furniture when the HF were around. At least that was the drill for a long long time.

But it probably kept us pretty limber. It seemed there would be a feeling of pity or embarrassment when someone, usually older, would come by and have difficulty sitting down on de ground with the rest. They would have to sit in a chair, and could not (presumably) effectively receive the grace that could only flow downward from lotus feet.

There again, trained rote thinking promulgated by the Hindu culture.
Once upon a time it may have been a beautiful and necessary civilizing tradition, thousands of years ago when marauding bands of 'dacoits' terrorized the land.

But now the feetki$$ing and so on are an insidious kind of psychic terrorism.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:33:38 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: Life on the floor
Message:
Yes! To this day, I prefer to sit on the floor cross-legged.

As Joe said about the nectar technique, I often find myself doing it, but because I could never get my tongue past the beginning of my soft palate, I don't get the snot stuff--it actually comforts me, as well as focuses my MIND better. Infants do it all the time...it's probably a natural human impulse.

There are lots of reminents of the cult behavior that pop up for me. The worst happens for me when I see New Agers (no offense intended to New Agers, mind you) behaving in many of the same ways, i.e., rising food to the third eye. (Oops, I almost typed ''rising foot to the third eye)!!! That would have been quite a challenging technique indeed, lol! ''No pain, no gain'' as Padarthadan (sp?) said in my k session, (chuckle).

I still 'bless myself' in the Catholic tradition, but I like that too, because I am in no way a Catholic, reminds me of my mother, and has no religious significance to me. I also say ''Jesu, Madia, and Josefo'' why the Italian/Spanish slant? You got me, I'm pure 2nd generation Polish!

There are reminants of the cult I have to be careful about, though because I have to constantly guard against the ingrained, brainwashed urge to pray to the goober. Words ruined, also have caused me to reframe many verbal expressions.

I'm glad I was a vegetarian, too. But I have fallen, I shall be flogged. Interestingly, though, when I went on a weight reduction eating regimen a couple of years ago, I did feel much better without meat in my system and lost a lot of pounds. But I still love to eat it, anyway.

It's a matter of being aware of what is toxic to me and what is okay.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 20:04:43 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Nectar technique and juju
Message:
Cynthia:

Funny what you said about quasi-nectar technique. According to one Buddhist teacher, just putting the tongue curled back and flattened against the roof of the mouth is supposed to be a focusing aid in meditation. There was no juju about nectar or stretching the tongue to get it way back there. It is funny how something so simple can be made in hocus pocus.

We were 'snot' missing anything.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:09:10 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Life on the floor
Message:
The only place I sit on a chair is at work or behind the computer, on which I sit crosslegged half of the time .I used to like sitting like that outside too, but 7 years in Florida (fire ants) have broken that habit.
I associate vegetarian with the cult and crazy ex-wives, so I eat more meat than a pack of velociraptors.
What puzzles me about being vegetarian: there is so much evidence that homo sapiens evolved as a predator. Developing and maintaining a large brain seems to require lots of ready available protein.
Almost all herbivorous mammals are incontinent.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 20:19:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Could you elaborate please?
Message:
Go ahead, Bobo,

Talk me into eating meat again. Seriously. I'm game. (??!)

Will I be healthier? Smarter? Thinner? Help me out -- and I'm not kidding -- I wish I'd never become a vegetarian. I completely agree that it was bad thinking on my part, lots of trendy acceptance of hindu bullshit and that's about it. Yet I've heard so much pro vegetarianism, I know the meat industry is sordid as hell, and I've got a really big aesthetic hurdle to overcome. Still, if I could change the past I never would have fallen into this habit.

So, go ahead, if you like. What's this about the brain and meat? Incontence? (Not yet a problem!)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:55:51 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I'm surprised at you Jim
Message:
You surely must realise that we evolved as hunter gatherers. Our diet at our present state of evolution would naturally be a large amount of fruits and leafy veggies plus roots and grains with regular feasting on any animal or fish we could catch.

The reason why I stopped being a pure vegetarian in the mid eighties was because of this evolutionary fact. We are not naturally vegetarians but are omnivores.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 00:33:40 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It really depends on who you believe..
Message:
There's so many books on this subject and they all have a lot of research to back them up. The conclusions that are drawn from the different sets of facts are also different.

One argument against eating meat is the size of human intestines. Dogs, for example, have teeth for ripping meat, and short intestines. The meat digests and passes through. The problem with humans is that our intestines are so long that meat putrefies in the gut.

I'm a vegetarian for personal reasons of compassion for animals, and environmentalism (eating low on the food chain is generally better for the planet) and never because anyone told me to be. People making fun of me can't talk me out of it either, thought I will certainly not argue or debate with anyone who wants to eat meat. I'm not out to convert people. I became a vegetarian before I received Knowledge, so the two are not intertwined for me. Of course, bugs get killed to grow vegetables so there's no reason to be overly 'holier than thou.' (Of course, some sources of meat, such as cows, eat lot of plant material, so many bugs and ALSO they cow get killed.)

Also, any toxins that are ingested by an animal are stored in the animal's body, such as in the fat, just as they are in human bodies. The toxins from animal sources are thus are way more concentrated than they are in plants.

One good book on vegetarianism (there are many out there) is 'Diet for a New America' by John Robbins. He used a lot of solid research instead of loopy theories so it is well respected in the medical field.

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:35:47 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Fossils
Message:
Fossils show we have evolved from an omnivorous ape similar to today's chimpanzee, which is omnivorous. Mankind reached its current state of evolution, in The Rift Valley in Africa, where we were hunter/gatherers. Only when we started farming did we take the first steps to becoming civilised.

If we were purely vegetarian, we would not be able to digest meat properly nor would we have any appetite for it. If we wanted to eat exactly as our evolution dictates, then we would only eat wild animals or fish that had very recently been killed. This would not be the majority of our diet though. The main diet of our species is vegetarian.

Chimps, who are the nearest to us in evolutionary terms are naturally hunter/gatherers if left to their own resources. They generally hunt monkeys and other small mammals. Their main diet is vegetarian with meat eaten only on the occasions where they are fortunate enough to catch it. Their teeth as well as ours have the necessary molars and incisors for eating as an omnivore.

Of course, both chimps and humans can survive on a purely vegetarian diet. Most omnivores can do likewise.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:02:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Herbivores let their shit fall out anywhere
Message:
Carnivores creep away and do it privately and most have to push to get it out. Of course cow dung smells quite pleasant compared with dog shit. But enough about bowel movements.

I was a militant macrobiotic hippie veggie for five years before I met Rawat - terribly self-righteous - ''Get that dead animal off my plate, please!'' Then I went to visit my mom 15 years later and was tempted by her delicious home-cooking and became a little less militant.

But the thing that changed my mind was French cordon bleu cuisine. Haute cuisine is the art of making cadavers look and taste elegant and to disguise them with enough sauces and other stuff that they no longer appear disgusting. Every other form of cadaver preparation still leaves me nauseous.

Supposedly we need fish oils. Linseed oil contains omega-3 fatty acids but tastes and smells like it is used for polishing cricket bats which it is. Also supposedly we need some rare amino acids conatined in meat.

However the meat industry is so disgusting and produces a product that is so inferior that, no matter how much I try to be open-minded, I am still nauseated. The answer is to only eat anything wild that has been caught and cooked immediately which means hardly ever eating meat which is fine. Our living neolithic ancestors, the Khoi of South Africa, eat a diet 90% vegetarian and occassionally eat a little meat. They have no heart disease, no osteoporosis and no cancer.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:29:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: I've Got Venison In My Freezer...
Message:
I'm not fond of it, but a friend made a steak that was delicious.

So, this friend gave me some ground venison. I've no idea how to cook it. Up here in the mountains, in the sticks literally, people use a lot of venison to keep alive during winter.

I'm too fond of Bambi to get into the hunting stuff, and with my fear of guns, I'll stick with store-bought meat.

There are many veggie recipies I used to love that make me ill just remembering the flavor. Plus the housemother who used to chastise us 'sisters' for using too much salad dressing! Waste not...of course. lol

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:26:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Vegetarian
Message:
I have remained a vegetarian, although I think I can do it because I was vegetarian before I was a premie, so I don't directly associate it with the cult. I have eaten eggs and seafood from time to time, and now being vegetarian is mostly just a habit; the idea of eating meat just doesn't occur to me.

Also, I understand vegetarianism is yet another teaching Maharaji abandoned, without much explanation of what the original vegetarian requirements were all about. Typical.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:10:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Vegetarian
Message:
Joe:

I'm still a vegetarian as well. Bit of a nuisance on multi-stage bike tours, and almost completely rules out cycling in the midwest (not that I care). I always eat seafood at the 'Happy Harbor' on the Maryland shore. It's an odd sort of 'biker bar' that's frequented by people who ride Treks and Harleys. I don't have any deep philosophy about vegetarianism, just don't seem to like the idea of eating meat any more. Totally unappetizing. Have toyed with the idea of eating bugs though. There are some very tasty bugs flying around out at Point of Rocks, especially in the late spring and early fall.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:34:40 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Fix text: 'never' at restaurants or friends . . . [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:20:36 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: oh god-lost my whole post on this
Message:
Your post spurred me to remeber a list of 27 things i can identify that i do that normal people don't, and when i submitted it, the server lost the post and said it was due to an error-me forgetting to enter my name in the header!!
auuugh
!
sir dave? is there any way that text can be preserved and not wiped out in between screens, from the writing, submitting, and the error message? can you talk to hotboards about this?

damn. it was my all time best post!

i guess i could try to recompose it from memory.
damn!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:38:00 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: oh god-lost my whole post on this
Message:
Hi Janet,

I too would love to read your list of 27 things...

I often have a problem with posting a reply. Could be my computer, don't know. It just happened to me. But I use Netscape Navigator 4.78 which SUCKS. It's always losing my connection.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:38:49 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: oh god-lost my whole post on this
Message:
Hi Janet, when I forget to put my name in the box I get that message but the BACK button takes me to reply screen.

But today, I tried to answer Carl's post and I got an error that caused the computer to shut down. I think that was because the error was due to the SUBJECT field having too many characters. So I wiped out half the Subject field and it worked fine.

Hope you're doing well!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:32:06 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: some advice please? OT
Message:
Please tell me how I can link a picture. It must have something to do with 'Image URL' but as an illiterate I don't know the meaning of this. I would like to once in a while post nice OT pictures, like landscape and clouds in infrared, with my modified webcam.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:43:14 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Re: some advice-- OT-OK
Message:
Please tell me how I can link a picture. It must have something to do with 'Image URL' but as an illiterate I don't know the meaning of this. I would like to once in a while post nice OT pictures, like landscape and clouds in infrared, with my modified webcam.


---

. beginner's lesson:
a URL stands for 'universal recource locator'. its shorthand for where on the web to look for the item. basically that's its address on the www.

each part of the URL stands for something.
the beginning letters like http://
stand for ''hyper text transfer protocol'.
hypertext is writings that exist only in cyberspace, not physical. transfer protocol is the method for going and getting the electronic packet of energy that represents the information, moving it from where it 'lives' to your screen, opening it , decoding it, and displaying it so you can read it on your screen.
the stuff after the :// tells the network where it is stored on the internet. the www is not all there is to the internet, but its the part of it you see the most.
once the call goes out and the searcher gets to the www [think of an immense cyber shopping mall-cum-city], it then has to point itself to specific places-adresses-inside that mall/city.
each part of the URl after the 'www.' is a successively smaller and smaller, more specific sector of the web for the searcher to go to, to get what you're calling for.
the first part is called the site name. It usually ends with a suffix categorizing it as to what kind of site it is--government, education, commercial, organizational, or connectivity.[dot gov, dot edu, dot com,dot org, dot net]. the cutoff of the site name ends with a forward slash. think of it as the door to the building or the shop in the mall. you go in and shut the door.now you start looking around for what you came for. the first, largest kind of think you're there to get is labeled a file. anything after that is a subfile of the first one. think of those dolls-within- dolls, that nest in smaller and smaller versions, one inside the other.
the URL of this very page is
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=ex-premieforum&id=8693.4330155025248
lets take it apart:
http: hypertext transfer protocol

//www. go to the worldwide web for this item

hotboards
[ find the site named 'hotboards'
.com/
it's going to be a commercial one that does business for money, someone is making money off it.

plus/
find the file labeled 'plus'--that's what they decided to call it when they organized their stock
by label, inside this particular 'store'

when you find that batch of files, go thru them and get the one labeled
plus.mirage?who=ex-premieforum&id=8693.
[it will have two different ways to identify it. you can ask for it by name or by a serial number]

when you find that one box full of stored text, find the single item numbered
4330155025248
using hypertext tranfer protocol, lift it into your 'saddlebag', back out of the entire series of nested dolls, go out the door you came in, leave the mall,and bring back the bundle to this machine and open it for me, here on my screen.

why the long lesson about URL's?
because in order to display a link to anything, it has to hae its own URL.
that means, it has to exist on a webpage, somewhere, on the www.
which means, you are going to have to put these lovely images you want to show us, on a webpage of your own creating, someplace on the www, and then make the URL or at least the site name, the file name, the subfile name and a suffix to tell any messengers what kind of file you want it to be displayed in. with visuals, you will need to decide if you wasnt it in a simple .gif format [for cartoons, graphs, charts, 'plottable images'] or if it should be in a complex, rich format with a lot of variation and subtlety, for photos and paintings and real life shadings. for that, it needs to be in jpg or jpeg format.
which means you not only need to put up a webpage, with its own URL, but you need to scan the photos in, onto the web, and save them in your own subfiles, name them and ID what kind of file they come in, and stash them on your site so that when someone clicks on that URL in the linking box, their messenger can find each segment of the URL, in turn, as described above, and come back with it to present it to the reader.

some sites like geocities, talkcity, tripod, webtv, have simple prefab pagemaker programs in place, that are not too hard to fill out and make a simple webpage without knowing much. but you will still have to scan in the nice pictures [if theyre your originals] or transload them to your own webpage site and give them your own name for them, if you find them somewhere else on the web, and don't take them to your place if they're copyrighted.
i know how to force the URL of any page I'm looking at, out into view, on webtv, but I don't know how you do it on PC or mac. if you see a nice picture on someone else's site, and want to put a link to it here for us to go look at, you have to force the URL out into view while you're at the site, copy and cache it ,then come back here and spit it out into the box labeled Image link. If it's text you're sending us to look at, put the URL in the 'link URL' box. the link name can be anything you want to call it for convenience and fast concept. that part is up to you. but the URL's have to be lifted at the pages, exactly, as they appear, and pasted exactly, in the boxes below

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:36:13 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Please recompose! Your posts always fascinate! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:29:57 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: Please recompose! -OK-
Message:
ok--I'll try.

well, let's see...in order to spot them, we have to go back and compile a list of strange things we did as premies that normal people in our culture wouldn't do or think about the way we did.
so i will title this list 'you might still have it in your system if you:

1) take your shoes off at the door and never wear them indoors..
2)make a beeline for the altar or first picture of Maharaji you see and pranam to it before doing anything else.
3)never begin anything without first getting centered and silent inside.
4)have a strange, clinging affectation for cetain indian things like:
incense
indian food
chai
tabla
harmonium
kirtas
dhotis
shawls
sitting on the floor cross legged
imitating indian accents
4)you still like quoting from Kabir, Nanak, Surdas, Tulsidas, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Gita, and odd parts of the Bible.
5)sleeping on a mattress or a framed bed makes you feel nervous.
6)you can't feel at home sleeping on anything but a foam mat on the floor
7)you still wake bolt upright and sit up and try to drag your consciousness into some semblance of one pointed focus before you let yourself rise from bed--even if it's just to go pee and go back to bed.
8)you can't look at a silver serving tray without seeing arti
9)cotton balls and anything shaped like a hershey kiss makes you think of arti.
10)you have a lingering tendency to decorate things with swans or lotuses
11)you still prefer to fill your house with soothing, cosmic, environmental sounds that suffuse peace and quiet throughout.
12)while others would put on a sweater or turn up the heat when chilled. you prefer to wrap yourself in a shawl or blanket and sit like a mountain.
13)you lapse into doing yoga stretches when forced to wait someplace with nothing to do
14)you still think you can realize God through food. because of this, you have a mystical belief in the powers and virtues of:

brown rice
tofu
tamari
miso
lentils
herbal teas
wheatgrass
sprouts
greenmagma barley juice
blue-green algae
raw juices
fasting
intestinal and colon cleansing
breatharianism
raw foods
live foods
anything organic
fanatical vegetarianism
every new health food fad that comes through
15) you have a devout belief in the superiority of alternative healing techniques, like
iridology
shiatsu
touch for health
chiropractic
foot massage
acupressure,
and will not go to an AMA doctor until these methods have failed you
16) you are hopelessly drawn to funny clothes you associate with your premie years:
yoga whites
long skirts and dresses
natural cotton white clothes, perfect for Holi dyings
earth shoes
birkenstocks
things with swans or lotuses on them
17)the sight of flowers makes you think of altars, malas, program stages or satin runways strewn with freshly plucked and strewn petals.
18)you either love or are nauseated by the smell of gardenias
19) you have a compulsion to intervene and reframe everything you overhear as a spiritual observation
20)you are happy to tackle dirty,menial, tedious, repetitive tasks no one else wants, with a cheerful and industrious attitude.
21)you expect no reward or pay for doing this
22)this makes you a chump that everyone else exploits and thinks you're a fool for accepting.
23)whenever youre somewhere the energy level starts to approach a din of chaos, you automatically close your eyes and center on your breath until your vibe spreads and everyone gets quiet or falls asleep.
24) you notice this a lot in buses and trains and planes.
25)in situations that others would find alarming, anxiety inducing, a punishment or a deprivation of stimulus--such as a stalled elevator, a locked room, solitary confinement,the 'hole' in jail, the quiet or padded room in a mental ward, trapped by an earthquake--you find familiar and welcome as the meditation room in the ashram.
26)in instances where this isolation is supposed to serve to punish you, you astonish, vex and disconcert your keepers, by embracing the opportunity with joy and reverence, settle into meditation, and let time dissolve.
27) in situations where the mood is getting restless, violent, suspicious and escalating towards dangerous tension and explosion, you have the knack of being able to intervene and speak reasonably, calmly, gently, persuasively and peaceably, diffusing and reducing the confrontation to something more like letting things be, to each his own, live and let live.
28)the compulsion to sit in lotus position is so ingrained, you unconsciously assume it even when sitting in chairs, buses, trains, planes, restaurants, clubs, bars,as a passenger in cars, and at business meetings, appointments, waiting rooms, at the computer, et al.
29)you can't eat without first getting still and going into the silence and finding your center.
30)you don't like to talk at meals
31) you still like to wear earplugs whenever you can get away with it and not endanger yourself or someone else. You'll even wear just one, if you can't wear both.
32) when you can't sleep, you sit up in the dark and do the techniques, even half assedly, just to give yourself something to go back to. they put you to sleep better than anything else you've tried.!
33) when you're getting too intense and wound up about something and it isn't working right, you finally tell yourself 'ok--i surrender!'--and then it suddenly works just fine.
34) when something is a close call or you narrowly escape disaster, you mutter 'thank you maharaji' under your breath or silently inside.
35)when something is comically chaotic and the people around you are taking things way too seriously, you find their intensity amusing and blow it all off with the catch-all dismissal 'it's all Lila/Maya/Illusion'.

there--how's that?

see yourself in any of these?

i sure as hell do.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 10:42:28 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: READ JANET's POST above! FUN-NEE!
Message:
And rings so true!

Others? (Speculation and conjecture, of course . . . !)

While under the meditation blanket eaten M&M candies to help you 'stay awake'?

At times merely mouthed the words to arti without giving any voice to it (because somehow you just couldn't in full faith buy into the inflated rhetoric)?

Experimented with simultaneous auto-erotics and the light technique to see if one would enhance the other?

Thought that M could see you and what you were doing at all times, particularly from his vantage point 'out of his photograph' wherever it was placed in the room?

Thought that doing lowly miserable 'service' was pleasing to God and was humbling your ego and removing eons of 'bad karma' that prevented you from realizing Knowledge?

Profoundly pitied family members and friends and the rest of humanity who were uninterested in M&K, and yet kept a subtle but distinct barrier to any sympathy and compassion for them, as much to say, Well to hell with them if they 'don't get it'?

Yet, at the same time, felt shy or embarrassed to bring anyone any closer to the whole scene because it was just so fundamentally weird and suspicious, and you knew what they would have to endure to get the techniques?

Have already begun worrying about your next incarnation, not quite sure that you've broken free from the 'circle of birth'?

Yet, you feel 'saved'?

You pray to Prem Pal Rawat in words, out loud or whispered, or in language-thoughts, visualing his face in your mind in the third eye area as best as you can?

You don't think any of this is particularly strange?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:51:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Now, that's ripe, Janet!
Message:
Thanks for making the effort to recompose your list. I certainly see how many of them still apply to me. I also enjoyed the serendipitous appearance of heads whenever you typed an 8 followed by a bracket, 8). That first happened to me when I typed the word slob inside of brackets and got (slob)!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:49:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: 'Food' for thought AND editing
Message:
Dear Carl:

First the editing. One cool thing about this Forum is that after you've posted your message you can still edit it. If you've closed your browser, or exited the forum it might not work, but within certain parameters you hit the link that says 'edit this message,' then click 'save.' Sometimes it tells you it's been saved and sometimes it doesn't but if you go back to F6 the changes are there. EXCEPT in the subject line. Other people can't edit your message (except the FA), but you can.

Now re the food for thought, when the behaviors are rote, without any intention behind them, they are funny, stupid even. But when they remind me to be conscious, they aren't bad. As long as I don't slip into some old conditioned expression, and come from it in the present moment, being conscious and grateful is fine with me. I can easily get arrogant (so I had the PERFECT gooroo for a few years there), so being humble and grateful over something as non-confrontational as food is a good place for me to start.

As far as there being a 'god' that cares, that's not my religion. I'm not pleasing anyone or anything when I do the 'grace' thing. I'm being conscious in the present moment that it took a lot of effort on a lot of people's part to get the food to the table, and I'm grateful to have it. Seeds were planted, crops were tended, bugs died (and in the case of meat eaters, animals died, and bugs died to provide the grain for the animals), and on and on. Often I am not conscious enough to get into that level of detail, and just try to remember that the food is a gift from the universe and leave it at that.

And often I just dig in with no pause whatsoever. But the only 'god' I have is pure consciousness itself. The Buddhists got me away from the God thing, and as long as I don't get hooked into the dogma that they have going, my incarnations from Catholic, to Maharajism to Buddhism to whatever haven't been all bad.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:34:38 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Yippee about the edits!
Message:
Hi Fran,
Thanks for the cool editing technique! You are now a guru. And I am grateful. Do I need to get one of your Smart Cards now? h@h@h@!

In the ashram, and certainly in Indian/Hindu culture, food was/is a big big deal. There were complicated protocols and significances about who ate when and before whom, and how and with which hand. Then there was the prashad and 'bhog' prashad thing. I remember a mahatma concerned over the least bit of wastefulness -- not a bad idea, btw -- but it was like 'the god of food will be angry if you waste even one grain of rice', that kind of thing.

But my thoughts were more about the funny ways autopilot behaviors get burned into our motherboards, or some such analogy. Funny, sometimes, when people from different cultures get confused when encountering one another, e.g., westerners will indicate a negative by shaking their heads from side to side, while many easterners will do that to indicated agreement. Easterners often consider direct eye contact to be rude, while westerners tend to regard eye-avoidance as indicating dishonesty.

And this stuff is ingrained right from the cradle.

Yeah, I'm sure there is no objective 'God' who gives a toot whether someone mumbles a formulaic prayer or not. What is of any value would be the sincerity or understanding felt by the 'prayee'. But what is interesting is the way the formulas still rattle around and pop out into behavior. Which tells me that a certain amount of the thinking process can be on autopilot if one is not vigilant. It seems that the simple observant and breath-centered point is a useful tool for disempowering magical, fruitlessly habitual or rote thinking. Creative thinking tends then to flower.

And as long as one's thinking was clarified in the process, effective meditation would clearly guide one away from culthood.

Now, time for another sandwich.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:47:09 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: 'Food' for thought AND editing
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:01:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: I still sing arti every morning - yuk!
Message:
For 28 years I sang arti every am to cheer myself up and focus. I need to find another song to sing as I am a firm believer that everyone should sing and dance at least once a day to put life in perspective. So, when I am making my first cup of tea I find that I still hum ''I give you my heart for in you it will mellow'' drifting through my mind as I wait for the tea to brew.

I've been thinking lately that I stuck with the fantasy of having a guru for so long because it sure does make it easier to have a real live god to have faith in and focus on - exactly what gurus are for - for lazy peasants with no self-motivation.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:51:19 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: How about some Gershwin?
Message:
(a-hem):

' It's very clear, Out Love Is Here To Stay;
Not for a year, but ever and a day.
The radio and the telephone and the movies that we know
May just be passing fancies, and in time may go.

But oh my dear, Our Love Is Here To Stay;
Together we're going a long, long way.
In time the Rockies may crumble, Gibralter may tumble,
They're only made of clay,
But Our Love Is Here To Stay. '

I think this was the last song they wrote together before George died.
Great, huh?

Best,
Carl

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:42:45 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Here's a better song for you
Message:
Why don't you start singing:

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.

I think I can make it now, the pain is gone
All of the bad feelings have disappeared
Here is the rainbow I’ve been prayin’ for
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.

Look all around, there’s nothin’ but blue skies
Look straight ahead, nothin’ but blue skies

I can see clearly now, the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind
It’s gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Sun-Shiny day.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:12:16 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: One Foundation
Message:
That's a good one, even though One Foundation used to play it at programs!

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 22:13:32 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Didn't realize that
Message:
I only have Johnny Nash and Jimmy Cliff in my MIND when I sing that song. Very interesting.

I guess it's like the Beatle's song REVOLUTION being used for running shoes. Or Carly Simon's ANTICIPATION for ketchup.

Hope I never hear it in that context. I love the song and the lyrics.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:43:03 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Here's a better song for you
Message:
Hi Deb
I can see clearly now,, is a song , that we here in Europa
Many times sang to M, at the festivals.

Every time i hear this song , i think of him.
So for me , it could never be my morning song.

Best Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:51:52 (EDT)
From: Janet
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Here's a better song for you
Message:
Here's an alternate:
Don't Stop
If you ever
don't want to smile
If it takes just a little while
Open your eyes, and look at the day
You'll see things in a different way

Don't stop thinkin' about tomorrow
Don't stop
it'll soon be here
It'll be here, better than before
Yesterday's gone
Yesterday's gone

Why not think about times to come?
And not about the things that you've done
If your life was bad to you
Just think what tomorrow will do

Don't stop thinkin' about tomorrow
Don't
stop
it'll soon be here
It'll be here, better than before
Yesterday's gone
Yesterday's gone

All I want is to see you smile
If it takes just a little while
I know you don't believe that it's true
life never meant any harm to you

Don't stop thinkin' about tomorrow
Don't
stop
it'll soon be here
It'll be here, better than before
Yesterday's gone
Yesterday's gone

ooooooooooohhhhhhhh,
don't you look back...

- Fleetwood Mac

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:59:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Janet
Subject: Thanks Carl, Deb and Janet - you're angels
Message:
All beautiful songs. Of course, being and old fag, I love Gershwin especially. Yes, there are so many more uplifting songs than farti.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:22:58 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Elan Vital sex offenders
Message:
Paedophile apologists such as Bjorn and others here have just begun to annoy me a little. I don't like Maharaji either. So, anyone sticking up for paedophiles or apologising and preaching about Maharaji screwy philosophy might be blocked, depending on my mood.

And talking about paedophiles, weren't there some other 'Mahatmas' who were abusing children, boys as well?

Weren't there also some mahatmas who were abusing women and raping some of them?

If anyone knows the names of these people, could you post them here please, with details, on this thread (or email me) and then I can draw up a list of Elan Vital sex offenders and have it on my website. Of course, they don't have to have been mahatmas. Any premies who were child abusers or rapists will count too. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 00:24:14 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Elan Vital sex offenders
Message:
There was a man called Anthony Bates who hung around Wringford Manor Farm which was Unity School and he was also a pedophile and abused a friend of mine and also did some very creepy things to us.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:05:53 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Elan Vital sex offenders
Message:
Mahatma Trevinanand (Trebinanand) was reported for taking liberties with a woman in New Orleans in 1973. It was a case of requesting more than a regular massage. He was due in Tallahassee and got called to Houston where Bal Bhagwan Ji (Sat Pal) was gearing up for Millenium. His punishement was reprimand and had to cut is shoulder length hair. Don't recall what happened beyond that re: further abuse.

A note on sexual abuse among 'spiritual' leaders. These manifestations of the shadow side of spirituality seems to be the rule rather than the exception. It has been reported in virtually every religion - Eastern, Western, new age and otherwise. It is the denial of the shadow that causes the abuse in the first place. Sexual repression in DLM ashrams populated by hormone rich 20 year olds and among Indian mahatmas surrounded by free love hippies was a petri dish ready for abuse. Of course, this doesn't at all forgive tolerating these abuses once known.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:36:48 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Long hair=KrishnaSukanand nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:24:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: If that's so, then this is important
Message:
Mahatma Trevinanand (Trebinanand) was reported for taking liberties with a woman in New Orleans in 1973. It was a case of requesting more than a regular massage. He was due in Tallahassee and got called to Houston where Bal Bhagwan Ji (Sat Pal) was gearing up for Millenium. His punishement was reprimand and had to cut is shoulder length hair. Don't recall what happened beyond that re: further abuse.

Later, in the summer of '74 in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada, he downright raped a girl I know. She flipped out, carved a sign in her forehead, apparently thinking this meant she was married to Maharaji now or something, and was institutionalized for a while.

See, the thing these premies don't get is that none of this would have been possible if Maharaji and the mahatmas weren't playing this ultimate confidence game with us. The mahatmas talked him up, he talked them up. We poor shlubs bought it all thinking that they couldn't all be wrong. They must have been all aware of each other on some cosmic plane or something. I dunno, something like that. Anyway, they all fed the myth-making machine like crazy.

So let's say, just for argument's sake, that Maharaji was completely diligent in taking out of commission each bad apple as they emerged --

Parlokanand fucking young boys? Good, thanks for letting me know. He's outta there. Next plane back to Delhi. Tejeshwaranand setting up an actual harem in the Vancouver ashram? Oops! Let's get him outta there too. What's that you say? Trevinanand? Alright, pull him. Jagdeo still doing that? For Christ's sake already! --

even if you gave Maharaji full credit for acting quickly, isn't it apparent that he acted as secretly as he could so as to maintain the essential myth of the Indian holy man, so holy he could recognize the greatness of Satguru? And isn't that myth the very thing that continued to lull us into trusting these 'God men' without qualification? Question: when did Maharaji first realize that these mahatmas weren't 'god realized'? When did he tell us?

Now, having said all that, I hasten to add that I don't for a moment think he even acted quickly as speculated. He had other things on his mind, the safety of premies and their children, sadly, was not chief among them. How could it have been?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 07:13:36 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mahatmas as venerated as M
Message:
The mahatmas were given such a heightened role, they were venerated almost as much as HF. Special raised seating, pranaming to them, special food, best quality everything, waited upon hand-and-foot. They were given the red carpet treatment everywhere they went, with throngs of adoring youths and young adults looking up to them for wisdom and divine revelations OF THE FULL MANIFESTATION OF GOD ALMIGHTY. What power they had!

No doubt the temptations of all that fresh nubile flesh dancing before them caused plenty o' sap to rise. They were only human, although the party line was that they were in constant communion with the full realization of Lord God.

Krishnasukanand was the first mahatma I ever encountered, in Miami in early 1972. He had long Christ-like hair, and wasn't too difficult to understand. Somehow I was convinced to drop everything and go to Montrose Colorado for GuruPuja where I got K via Rajeshwar. Rajeshwar seemed cool and not too dreamy-trippy, rather more of an intelligent academic yet somewhat charismatic speaker. I remember him sitting and sweating in his undershirt in those hot goverment-issue dark green canvas tents where the K-sessions were held. He was eating peaches or plums and spitting out the pits rather undecorously. Which seemed appealingly natural and human, like he would frankly fart out loud and not care about it. Never could stand the fluffy dreamy air-head trippiness of much of the scene.

I wonder what ever became of K-suk and Rajeshwar?

I vaguely remember when Parlokanand was sent away, but the details were very hush-hush. It was whispered that it was for some kind of sexual misconduct, but I never heard about the 'boy' part of it. Would that have been preadolescent children, or was he just getting frisky with the ashram brothers?

Also, I got the distinct impression the mahatmas were channeling a lot of cash back to the boss too. I believe there was a sort of tacit competition, or ranking of their relative grace-worthiness, based on how much dough a mahatma could bring to 'the master'.

It sure was a heady time. I'd be curious to hear about the later years, after the split, when Western mahatmas (initiators or whatever) were running around. Were they given the same or similar carte blanche to get the best of material goodies, and be served hand-and-foot?

What a scene, ja?

Best,
Carl

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:35:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Parlokanad was pedophilia
Message:
I guess I knew more about Parlokanad because he got sent to COLL where I was living. There were some rules involved, like he wasn't allowed to give satsang and had to work in the premie car wash. I don't there he was there too long, however.

It was definitely kids that Parlokanad was into. He was taken out of circulation in the States, at least. I heard he was sent back to India and god only knows what happened to him there.

True about the Mahatmas being venerated.

I don't think it was so much that these things happened, as awful as they were, but that there was this terrible, oppresive, system that allowed it to happen -- the whole idea of subservience and surrender, andt he idea, especially among ashram premies that Maharaji was taking care of you. Plus, most of us were pretty young, immature, and the system made us all regress to children in many ways.

Plus, once something happened like what Parlokanad or Terbinanand did, it was all kept hush, hush. If Maharaji had been any kind of a responsible 'master' he would have spoken to us directly about this, that if we knew of, or were the victims of, any kind of abuse, we should report it immediately. But that didn't happen. It was either ignored, or swept under the carpet.

And this doesn't even address the physical and psychological abuse that went on in the Maharaji cult. Many people didn't have their heath needs met, and people like David Smith psychologically abused people with abandon.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:48:57 (EDT)
From: Cutoff Age?
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: If 15 qualifies then Marolyn Johnson (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:55:01 (EDT)
From: Janet
Email: None
To: Cutoff Age?
Subject: Re: If 15 qualifies then Marolyn Johnson (nt)
Message:

---

uh...you were about to say
---
?
could ya finish the thought? I was on the edge of my seat.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:50:36 (EDT)
From: Cutoff Age?
Email: None
To: Cutoff Age?
Subject: Re: If 16 qualifies then Randy P
Message:
of the 'Hit and Run' Chinese Fire Drill fame.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:46:51 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Elan Vital sex offenders
Message:
Mahatma Parlokanad was sexually molesting little boys around 1975 or so. He got de-frocked, and got sent to COLL in San Antonio where I was living. Then he got sent back to India, and I don't know what happened to him. This was all common knowledge among the premies at the time.

There were quite a few Mahatmas who were having sex with housemothers and the like. Tejeswaranad was one, but I can't recall the others. Bob Mishler says in his radio interview that they had a lot of problems with Mahatmas sexually abusing premies, but Parlokanand is the only pedophile, other than Jagdeo, that I am aware of.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 19:01:41 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Where are those little boys now, I wonder?
Message:
Intesting stuff Joe (albeit depressing). But I think we see a blueprint here for everything that has happened since. If Parlokandand was abusing children, why the fuck wasn't he reported to the police?

Seems to me, get the offender out of harm's way (ie. harm to DLM/EV) has been the only policy up to now for dealing with Margie-poo's aberrant saints. (Though, if questioned about those episodes, I doubt whether anyone around in those days will remember a thing.)

Ignorance is bliss and vice versa.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:56:56 (EDT)
From: juan don
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Elan Vital sex offenders
Message:
Were you at the ashram in San antonio? What years? We may have known each other.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:14:29 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: juan don
Subject: Years in San Antonio
Message:
I was there from December, 1974 until July, 1976. When were you there?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:24:10 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: By the way
Message:
Should we also include Maharaji on the sex offenders list?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:21:36 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Yes, Maha is a sexual offender
Message:
Of course he is Dave. I'm so glad that someone is saying that besides me. I am a woman who was a certified gopi. I know what the divine dance for Maha was about, that had nothing to do with SEX. The Krishna figure was meant to be able to be every gopi's lover, that was a confort in the divine sense. Imagine being a 23 yr. woman (or man for that manner) who is not having normal relationships with other mortals. Premie women are devotees. I don't care how much things have changed today. Maha has corrupted their minds, hence the woman's natural descretion.

Michael Dettmers tried to convince to Maha not to screw the premie women, he tried to convince the prick to sleep with prostitutes.

See the difference. Prostitues are in control of their decisions, premie devotees are manipulated on the deepest level.

DO you think Michael would be going out of his way to console and handle the nervous breakdowns of these women if the bastard was just another one night stand. Michael would be telling them to grow up. Is he?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:52:39 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Yes, Maha is a sexual offender
Message:
To add to Deborah's post, I too believe that Maharaji is also a sex offender. A sexual predator who used his immense power at a time in the cult when he was considered, as Deborah said, Krishna.

I was also a certified gopi and being in the ashram made those of us who were true believers vulnerable to being in the ''Lover of All'' mentality. To abuse power sexually is a big no-no, especially in the western world, especially in the US.

I feel very sad for the woman he used, abused and threw away. That seems to be a pattern for m, doesn't it? On every level, M uses, abuses and throws people away.

Maharaji is lower than a slug.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:37:27 (EDT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: By the way
Message:
Yes! To my mind Maharaji is a sex offender - just think about the premie blondes he abused, that dettmers witnessed about.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:37:08 (EDT)
From: Crabby Horse }(
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: By the way
Message:
While u being annoyed and all that, is this forum getting archived?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:54:54 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Crabby Horse }(
Subject: Archives
Message:
This forum is being archived, it's just that I haven't got around to getting the archives onto EPO:-)

Any day now, but not today as we're half way through about 1000 bales of hay:-)

John the horse breeding webmaster

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:43:27 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Crabby Horse }(
Subject: Yes
Message:
and JHB is in the process of putting the archives onto ex-premie.org.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:08:07 (EDT)
From: Crabby Horse }(
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: thanks.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 07:38:39 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The 'Gruondhog days'
Message:
Has anyone seen that movie? M talks about it and explains that K can free you of your groundhog days.

The sandcase forums (ex-premie and LG) remind me more and more about the groundhod days. Same shit happens day after day. Time to quit visiting these places, I think

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:52:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Funny you should say that, Bjorn...
Message:
I described your contributions here a couple of weeks ago as being exeactly like 'Groundhog Day'. Same questions, same obsessions, same accusations, same appeals for sympathy; similar replies, seemingly ignored. Goes on and on - no change. Up till now I had never been convinced that anything any ex-premie said even lodged for a moment in your long-term memory. Now I know different. Yes, DO a take a break. I think it will do you good. No malice or irony intended. Take a break - your being here isn't doing you much good that I can see, or anyone else. Go smell the mountain air and (if you like) tell yourself that it is Maharaji's gift. Thousands would disagree, perhaps, but why kow-tow to the masses?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:00:21 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: The 'Gruondhog days'
Message:
SSDD
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:23:48 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Yes, Time to quit. Go away.
Message:
Fuck off you LIAR.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:04:54 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Maharaji's misunderstanding
Message:
So if you want to stop visiting and posting here, why do you visit and post here?

Maharaji and yourself have missed the while point and message behind the Groundhog Day film. That doesn't surprise me since Maharaji's an ignoramus and you just follow blindly whatever he says. It was not about escaping groundhog day, it was about making the day right and learning as much as possible from the day - that's the opposite of escaping it. It means dealing with it.

This shows how defunkt is Maharaji's ridiculous philosophy and how bankrupt his ideas of escapism are. It also shows why Maharaji and premies show no responsibility to cases like the Jagdeo paedophile abuse of children and how Elan Vital, Maharaji and premies like yourself are happy to defend a paedophile who has damaged people for life and live in your tiny escapist world where you can forget about reality.

Since you don't want to post here, you won't mind it if I block you, will you.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:20:21 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Maharaji's misunderstanding
Message:
I watched thwe movie and to me the it was a story about the same shit happened every day and the guy could not escape, in spite of the fact that he hated the place) Finally the guy learned something and escaped. That is what M told about the movie. (But I assume you have not heard M talk about this, huh?)

I never were 'happy to defend a paedophile who has damaged people for life'. In fact I several times claimed that in my opinion J. should be charged for the crimes he did. I have also critizised the way the victims and their advisors have made a PR jippo out of it, and I have critizised the way the PR person at EV exposed the behaviour of the victims. So far people have critizised me for that, but my conscience is clean in this case.

If you want to block me, you are welcome. However that will break the principles of the principles of the freedom of speech.

Sincerely Bjørn E.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:52:25 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: lied
Message:
EV did not 'expose the behaviour of the victims' they misrepresented and lied about what has happened. It was a calculated strategy aimed at warning me off from ever going to the media, a measure of things to come.

Please don't reply.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:36:30 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Maharaji's misunderstanding
Message:
Maharaji's description of the film is way off. Just shows that's he's a complete dickhead. In the film, the guy learned to like the day and got a lot out of it. He didn't hate it at all in the end.
That was the moral of the story but that would be way over Maharaji's head.

You've said that you don't want to read or post here, therefore I will be doing you a kindness by blocking you. You can speak freely all you want on Lifes (sic) Great. People don't want you to post here, it seems.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 09:08:35 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Maharaji's misunderstanding
Message:
Well, block me if you will. Maybe this is a favour and my way to escape from my 'Groundhog days'.

What I remember of the film this guy had to go to the same place every year and he hated it. And then it happened that he could not escape because the tunnel was blocked. And when he woke up next morning, it was a new 'Groundhog day'. Until he finally learned something and escaped.

So I feel it suits my situation, that was my point. If you disagree, I dont care.

Have a nice 'Groundhog Day'
Bye

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 08:36:01 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Just a comment about the movie
Message:
Every day the person tried to go away from that place, but everyday there was no possibility for escaping, (snowstorm or whatever). So I think the movie was about escaping from a place the guy hated. (In spite of what you are saying)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:41:40 (EDT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Just a comment about the movie
Message:
No, Bjorn, you got the movie wrong. It was not about escaping, but about learning not to escape: as long as the guy tried to escape,
he couldn't. When he learned to live his life right, he did not have to re-live his day over and over again.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:58:40 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: Re: Just a comment about the movie
Message:
Hi Kaj. Hope you are doing well.

Well, I liked the movie and I remember something about the guy who used to exploit people, could not escape. What I remember is that finally he started to help people by doing unselfish acts and then he could door out was opened and he could leave. But it is a while since I watched the movie so I will not bet on it. Guess there are some space for interpretations.

I am still married to Seija, even though we had our struggels, we had a good marriage and she has been wonderful wife overall. We have 2 great kids and I am very proud of them.

But I am out of here

Best wishes Bjørn, (I suppose you remember me?)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:48:07 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: That explanation makes so much more sense
Message:
No, Bjorn, you got the movie wrong. It was not about escaping, but about learning not to escape: as long as the guy tried to escape,
he couldn't. When he learned to live his life right, he did not have to re-live his day over and over again.


---

OK now I understand. Bjorn and his whiz of a guru had me confused. Thanks for the clarity, I appreciate it.

Gratefully yours, :)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:37:28 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: gerry
Subject: It's a great film to watch, Gerry
Message:
I loved that film. I guess that's why I was annoyed at the misinterpretation of it by the dickhead master.
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:54:16 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To forum admin.
Message:
I am very sorry about todays thread posted by the premie ( www.killfatguroo.com). I stupidly answered him/her with an idiotic violent retort to his/her request, and I posted a link to a weapons site as well. I guess I don't know enough about this place to know the prems from the x's, and besides, I should realise going along with even an ex-prems violent threats toward M doesn't help the cause or the others here that are still true caring non-violent people. In the future I will not respond and back up these threatning kinds of posts at all-no matter who posts them. Sorry Nigel,forum admin.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 11:11:49 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: To forum admin.
Message:
do you know Bazza?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 23:25:57 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yes I do. (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 07:41:37 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: fessing up
Message:
Well done for 'fessing up there Barry. That's one way you can tell a regular bod from a cult victim -- when members of the 'home team' on the ex-premie Forum are wrong, we are (usually) able promptly to admit it.

Kilfa'guroo sounds like an Aussie town, doesn't it!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 23:27:19 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Ok then, were all cool here! (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 05:42:24 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Barry
Subject: Re: To forum admin.
Message:
I'm sure Nigel will forgive you.
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:13:13 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Premie threatens to kill Maharaji
Message:
The person who posted here as Gordon Showcase today is not the usual Gordon Showcase who is known to post from time to time but was instead a premie who has posted here before using the name McGruff.

As "Gordon Showcase", he posted a message here today to the effect that he wanted to kill Maharaji. This post has now been deleted. Obviously he was pretending to be an ex-premie and posted his violent and threatening message in order to make out that ex-premies were posting threats.

In future, any threatening posters will be reported to their Internet Service Provider with full details of their post.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:28:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: David
Subject: I support that decision
Message:
Interesitn how it was a premie who posted that, isn't it. Talk about repressed feelings. It takes a deep and pussy wound to even think up a plot like that. Person needs to get help, fast.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 00:08:00 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Right on, Sir Dave! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:45:51 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: David
Subject: a bongo premie did that at LG, too
Message:
the exes here are too civilized + smart for that kind of hooey.

a number of us asked LG yesterday to delete a similar post inciting assassination.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:05:32 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: a bongo premie did that at LG, too
Message:
thanks for the strong stand on this subject forum administrators
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 20:13:56 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Rawat's looking bad--the cheap fucker
Message:
He ought to just pay up and shut up. What a dope. Who in the hell is giving him legal and PR advice?

It goes against all reasoned sense for him to allow whatshername to post such an offensive and ill-thought-out press release.

I'm stunned at their stupidity. I hadn't realized until now just what idiots these people really are.

One thing is pretty clear: Rawat doesn't want to set any precedent for accepting personal responsibility and more importantly, a precedent of paying damages to victims.

Little Sant Ji Filamento is probably ruining another pair of Gucci's with his incontinence thinking about what surely is to follow in the wake of this major PR fiasco: MORE VICTIMS COMING OUT OF THE WOODWORK DEMANDING THEIR SHARE OF THE SETTLEMENT MONEY.

Just like the catholic fucking church and their pedophile priests, these are never isolated incidents. THERE MAY BE HUNDREDS OF JAGDEO VICTIMS OUT THERE.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 09:50:43 (EDT)
From: Catweasel LLB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You are Dreamin
Message:
Are you serious? Like the Catholic Church. One guy doing something VERY cunning. And you tag the whole show? Give me a fucking break!
Rock spiders are generally loners and NEVER admit to their actions.
The Catholic church is full of such reprobates. We are not talking about the Catholic Church. We are are talking about one sick sad old man who if what has been said is true , is a very screwed up unit. Try it on Gerry. Who is advising you. It will NEVER fly. All you can do is throw mud and hope some sticks . It's crap. Pure crap.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 14:02:23 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Catweasel LLB
Subject: You're clueless, Catweasal
Message:
Your stupidity is showing, cat. Read Joe's post below.

The RCC held out as long as they could until they were forced by multiple lawsuits, and publicity to admit their wrongdoing by harboring sexual predators (pedophile priests) who wounded and hurt hundreds of boys and girls who grew up wounded, and gee, felt the right to ask for compensation!

Now the Maharjism cult is having the same problem and they are being idiots in their methods of this heinous cover-up. Maybe you should be writing to your LORD, cat.

You don't have to worry Cat, you must be constantly in Holy Name, right? Either that or you have ''personal agya'' to be here at F6, as if you have some kind of power to protect your cult leader, Maharaji.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 13:44:35 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Catweasel LLB
Subject: What does it matter catweasel?
Message:
As though the black hole that emanates from here could have any effect on the source of light, the one who can dispel all darkness with just a glance.

Have more faith bro.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:53:31 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Catweasel LLB
Subject: No he's not
Message:
There is fairly compelling evidence that Maharaji knew about Jagdeo in 1977, and there would be plenty of testimony that Jagdeo was touring on behalf of Maharaji and Elan Vital for many years after that. And, as we know, it was Jagdeo's position as a mahatma, just like it was with priests in the Catholic church that gave him access to little girls and got the confidence of their parents. Likely, that was the main reason Jagdeo was even being a mahatma, because it gave him access to his sexual perversity.

The Catholic Church has been caught doing some of the same. There have been cases in which it was shown that the church knew about pedophila by certain priests, and instead of taking them out of circulation, sent them to other parishes, where they ended up doing the same thing. That's why the church has had to pay out so much money sometimes to the victims.

But even if Maharaji and Elan Vital didn't know about what Jagdeo was doing, which I find unbelievable, they probably still have vicarious liability for the actions of their agents, ministers and employees.

Frankly, the reason Maharaji doesn't apologize like he should, is that he is probably being told by his high-priced lawyers, that it would open him to personal liability, because he is trying desperately to keep a separation between himself and Elan Vital.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 10:56:17 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Catweasel LLB
Subject: This is no dream, Cat, it's a nightmare
Message:
I'm not saying that Elan Vital is full of pedophiles (although wasn't Parlokanand also a pedophile?)

I'm saying that Jagdeo, in all likelihood was a serial offender, with possibly hundreds of victims.

Let's stipulate for the moment that Jagdeo is indeed guilty and as you say, "one sick unit." Jagdeo was chosen by Rawat to represent him and to give the "gift" of knowledge. Jagdeo used his authority to rape little girls. Rawat must shoulder at least some responsibility, don't you agree, Cat?

How is it different from this: my wife was hit by a car driven by a Thurston county government employee and now the county must pay my wife for damages. The employer didn't hit Patty, the employee did.

Still the county must pay up. That's just the way it is. The lady who hit Patty was also vulnerable to criminal charges, had we wished to press them.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:33:39 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: This is no dream, Cat, it's a nightmare
Message:
Legally there is a huge difference. Firstly no conviction. Secondly the inability of victims to give specifics will mean prosecution is very unlikely.
Finally to use your analogy if a county employee murders your wife ; with a gun supplied to him to kill vermin and then kills another 5 women over 5 years can the victims families (yours included) sue the county? No.
Criminal activity is a whole different ball of wax. The Priests and brothers have been generally prosecuted in criminal cases before a civil case occurs.
My point is not whether the alleged actions occured or not . I am simply stating the legal reality. As a case it will not fly.
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:52:34 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yup!
Message:
Little Sant Ji Filamento is probably ruining another pair of Gucci's with his incontinence thinking about what surely is to follow in the wake of this major PR fiasco...

M and EV have proven two things for the whole world.
Firstly, they can't be trusted to negotiate in good faith. If anyone doubts that, all they need to do is ask Abi about her experience in negotiating with the cult.
Secondly, along with all his bullshit titles or self-descriptions like- businessman, investor, inventor, artist, poet, music composer...m can now add another title.

DEFAMER OF SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS

And unlike some of his other titles, this one is no shit.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 20:13:41 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: a church?
Message:
Does anyone know to whom does e-mail addressed 'pr@elanvital.org' go? I found the address on the 'Press Release' page. I wrote and asked, quite simply, why Elan Vital is registered as a church. That was about 12 hours ago, but I have not received a response. Does it take a long time to hear from them, or is it a 'dummy' address? Anybody here have any ideas?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 12:56:23 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: a church?
Message:
Good job, Timmi! Let me know if you get a response, and please save your letter or e-mail asking them why they are registered as a church. Of course I'm not expecting them to respond, but even their lack of response would say somthing.

My e-mail address is above. I'd like a copy of both your request and their response, if you ever get it.

Bests, Francesca

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:30:37 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: a church?
Message:
don't count on getting a reply, though you maybe lucky.
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 21:54:25 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: a church?
Message:
Pr=public relations. Address your email to Terry Yingling.
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