Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 18, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Peg -:- DEVOTION -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:45:21 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: DEVOTION -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:02:21 (EDT)
__ __ magiclara -:- Re: DEVOTION -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:17:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- 1974 Windsor Free Festival -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:04:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: 1974 Windsor Free Festival -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:16:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- DUO Events -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:35:58 (EDT)
__ magiclara -:- Re: DEVOTION -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:45:48 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Meditation begins in the form of -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:15:50 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Jim and Joe in re; your skepticism -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:38:54 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Thanks Pat -- appreciate ur support! [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 12:37:59 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Knowledge and being secular -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:27:25 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Knowledge and being secular -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:08:22 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Skepticism -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:28:59 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Skepticism - agnosticism -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:10:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Agnosticism is just a compromise with tradition -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 21:56:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I'll let Joe argue that one with you -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 14:06:36 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Yes dear twinnie **GREAT POST** -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:34:47 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Jim and Joe in re; your skepticism -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:42:14 (EDT)

Recent Expremie -:- Letter to Elan Vital & IRCC Staff -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 01:15:24 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- Bravo -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:57:38 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sorry, but 'courage'? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 21:58:28 (EDT)
__ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: Letter to Elan Vital & IRCC Staff -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:52:17 (EDT)
__ Mercedes -:- One person missing -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:23:03 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: One person missing -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:27:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Hi Richard -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:50:55 (EDT)
__ CW -:- This is your chance -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:27:52 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Oh dear. -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 05:56:45 (EDT)
__ __ CW -:- Re: Oh dear. -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:29:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Wow, that told him... -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:11:59 (EDT)
__ Nottingham Mole -:- I remember when -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:47:10 (EDT)
__ __ CW -:- Re: I remember when -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:31:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nottingham Mole -:- Re: I remember when -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:08:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- I agree NM -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 02:35:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: I agree NM -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 04:10:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- CW shows his true colors -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 14:02:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Nothing New -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:17:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- What? Screaming in parks? You're not kidding? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:31:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yep -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:13:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Yikes. Worse than Jesus freaks. -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:25:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- It didn't last long -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:31:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I remember Ira in DC... -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:42:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Re: I remember Ira in DC...more names.... -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:04:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Eric and Sally -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 01:40:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Those names -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:57:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Dennis Marciniak, Dennis Marciniak ... ??? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:31:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Dennis, Erica, Sharon -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:36:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ BTDT -:- Re: Dennis, Erica, Sharon -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 01:29:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Does Sharon look like Roseanne Barr? -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 13:56:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Remember Jojo Fisher? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:58:59 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Amaroo 2001 -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 02:14:48 (EDT)
__ __ CW -:- Re: Amaroo 2001 -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:34:40 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Amaroo 2001 - 1.300 Aussies -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:11:54 (EDT)

Jim -:- Is this not the sexiest thing you've ever seen? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 00:52:46 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- I thought it was sexy ;) -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:41:47 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- you could do worse [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:36:25 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- My two pennysworth -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:19:50 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: My two pennysworth -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:32:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Re: My two pennysworth/Non-profits -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 11:47:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- True but... -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:41:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: True but... -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:02:32 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- send mail -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:41:59 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Uh? Where? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 07:10:08 (EDT)

Deena -:- MIND -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 22:59:31 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- You hit the nail on the head, Deena nt -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:53:44 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- ***GREAT POST*** -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:01:55 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: MIND - brilliant, Deena -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:20:24 (EDT)
__ __ magiclara -:- Hindu concepts! -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:54:49 (EDT)

Joe -:- Remember Teddy Tannenbaum? -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:16:56 (EDT)
__ Andrew Coran -:- Re: Remember Teddy Tannenbaum? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 05:06:45 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Joe's willy. -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 12:52:12 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Care to inform us Andrew? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:19:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Andrew Coran -:- Re: Care to inform us Andrew? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:59:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks for the info -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:21:59 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Coaching -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:15:51 (EDT)
__ D -:- Re: Remember Teddy Tannenbaum? -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 21:34:58 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- According to a poster on FV -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:00:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: According to a poster on FV -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:22:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- How could you keep from barfing? nt -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:33:40 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- It's just Knowledge Lite Lite -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:30:06 (EDT)
__ __ Carl -:- What lessons do we learn? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 00:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Yes, learned at the feet of the Perfect Bastard -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:50:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Terrific, Carl -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:23:07 (EDT)

timmi -:- e-mail -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:04:28 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- You'd have to be more specific -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:08:36 (EDT)
__ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: e-mail -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:32:50 (EDT)
__ feh -:- time to buy a vowel [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:17:38 (EDT)

Joe -:- My email to Thomas, Pia's son -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:22:48 (EDT)
__ R2 -:- Re: My email to Thomas, Pia's son -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:30:11 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Too stronger word -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:57:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ R2 -:- Re: Too stronger word -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:29:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Ex-premies don't use Abi -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:25:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ R2 -:- Bullshit -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:50:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not bullshit and here's why -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 22:25:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I disagree, Dave -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:06:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- OK that's it -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 10:08:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- singular and plural motives -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:02:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Took the words right out of my mouth, Dermot -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:25:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ R2 -:- A whitewash! -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:37:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Your halo is slipping, R2-please read -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 03:54:38 (EDT)
__ __ And On Anand Ji -:- 'answer'==accountability; admission of guilt -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:50:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- R2 trying not to lose face -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:08:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ R2 -:- Whatever -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:41:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ pan ji -:- Re: R2 trying not to lose face -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:57:05 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Richard, that's just mean -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 15:15:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ R2 -:- Hardly Joe -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:28:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Averagely written religious cult bullshit, R2 NT -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:33:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well now you resort to lying -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:14:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ R2 -:- I have not lied in any way Joe -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:06:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- A potpourri of perplexity -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:42:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- what 'Master'?? Person don't you mean? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:14:08 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Spitting on Roses. -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 06:20:44 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: My email to Thomas, Pia's son -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:28:14 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Here's his answer -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:35:55 (EDT)

Barry -:- Help?(ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 16:15:43 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Help?(ot) -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:13:17 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Internet Security on CNET -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 23:15:36 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: Internet Security on CNET -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:29:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Thanks again for your comments ... -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:47:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- *cough* not a newcomer *cough* [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:40:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- should be 'back posting again' or something! [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:55:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: should be 'back posting again' or something! -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:13:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Well I appreciate your input -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:58:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Well I appreciate your input -:- Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 10:10:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- you're welcome [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:48:51 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Not a professional, but (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:19:12 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: Not a professional, but (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:34:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Thanks a0aji! [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:43:36 (EDT)
__ anon -:- Re: Help?(ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:02:32 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay? -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 15:13:03 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:10:24 (EDT)
__ Deena -:- Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay? -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 22:25:40 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay? -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 23:28:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Good questions -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:45:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bobo -:- Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay? -:- Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 08:32:33 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Relief and painkillers -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:20:18 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- No relief -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:18:50 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Really? -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:33:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Uh, huh, if I recall correctly -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:26:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Really! -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:56:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- So, didn't you get 'blissed out?' -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:36:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: So, didn't you get 'blissed out?' -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:18:09 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:45:21 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: DEVOTION
Message:
Answering Joes post about why we stayed I ended up saying that the main reason for me was the predisposition to devotion. I have been devoted to many things in my life, boys,girls, men, football teams friends, self improvement and of course M. I did have a lurking suspicion that this was a lack of willingness to take responsibility on my part. but then it has been much praised in all the scriptures and I actually like the energy of people who are really into things...those mad professors who are obviously fascinated by their research, the little old ladies who know the name and habits of every bird/flowerin their garden etc.
Now I feel quite squirmy about the way I used to love those instrumental references to the old tunes and those video clips where only those in the know realise 'darshan' is taking place.
Anyway there seems to be quite a selection of exes and also actuall premies reading this site and (for me anyway) it would be interesting to hear other peoples take on this subject.
Also does anyone know of any literature about this?
Starting to enjoy this
Pegg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:02:21 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: DEVOTION
Message:
Hi Peg,

I think for me, it was devotion to the idea of saving the world, and helping in service to Maharaji as the living Incarnation of God, to save humanity. That was what I was devoted to, and I agree completely, that it was blissful because I gave up the responsbility of trying to figure out how I could fit into that and contribute, which I have since learned is a life-long endeavor for which there is no simple answer. But thinking you had a simple answer was nice for awhile.

If I recall correctly, after the 1976 space-out, Maharaji's speil changed. Before, he had emphasized the practice of knowledge and the path of realization. There was also an emphasis on humanitarian activities through DUO, feeding and clothing the world, and also spreading knowledge.

But by 1977 that completely changed. From then on it was devotion, devotion, devotion, and not to saving the world, or love of god, or the path, it was devotion for, love for, longing for Maharaji himself. I started to have a real hard time during this period, because I never felt the attraction and love for Maharaji the physical person. So that was tough. But it was clear that during this period, at least until I left in 1983, it was all love, devotion and service to Maharaji, and Maharaji said, specifically, that service was required, and only service to HIM qualified, not service to mankind, the greater good, or anything else.

Of course by that time, I was already heavily programmed and indoctrinated into the cult, and it took years before I left. It isn't easy to reject something that was once everything.

So, I would agree that for me too, devotion was definitely a driving force, but I guess it was the object of the devotion that got weird for me.

Thanks for your insights.

Joe

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:17:30 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: DEVOTION
Message:
Hi Joe
I hadn't realised just how far away from that idea of helping the world things went. I had forgotten about DUO. I remember at the 1974 Windsor Free Festival Divine Light had a 'Bad trip tent' I wonder if anyone was involved in that. I would be interested to know if they helped people who were having bad trips by giving them satsang. I don't remember seeing a DLM tent at any other festivals myself, but maybe there was.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:04:49 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: magiclara
Subject: 1974 Windsor Free Festival
Message:
Hi Clara, I did service in the bad trip tent. I got stuck with one guy for most of one day. He was really freaked and two sisters in those ugly long dresses gave him satsang. He ripped his clothes off and wanted to fuck them. They handed him over to me when they saw that all he needed was sex. No I didn't give him sex. I gave him a massage. He was masturbating furiously and unashamedly. Being in pharmacy I knew that he needed thorazine but there was none to be had. I was told to give him satsang but could not bring myself to tell him as he was not in the mood for it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:16:36 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: 1974 Windsor Free Festival
Message:
Hi Pat
Sounds a barrel of laughs that. I never went in the tent but wondered what the strategy would be re satsang. I remember the dawn police raid and people being told to keep away from the DLM tent so that the police wouldn't go there and upset the people having bad trips. I also remember Gong playing for what seemed like days. Could have been the acid of course. I got knowledge the following year.Mad crazy days they were.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:35:58 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: DUO Events
Message:
I remember in 1974, there was an event in Washington DC, called 'Third World Prachar' at which premies from around the US came to discuss propagation to the 'third world' and to minority groups in the USA.

During 1974 and 1975, premies were encouraged to go to nursing homes, mental health facilities, etc., and do 'service' and not necessarly to proselytize to the people there. I remember that on Christmas, 1974, the entire ashram I lived in went to a home for mentally-disabled kids and played games, sang songs, and put on skits for them.

Also, there was a big emphasis on PLA ('Peformers of the Living Arts') which was about theater, music, and was actually quite creative.

But by 1977, all that was completely abolished. In fact, Maharaji implied that all that was a complete waste of time, because the only thing worthwhile was serving Maharaji. After that, we didn't do those things anymore, the creativity in the arts, except for certain, approved music, was gone. Then, we put our energies into making money, and giving Maharaji grandiose monstrosities, like a Boeing 707, new cars and residences, gold plumbing and toilets, and building these elaborate backstages at programs, literally homes for the divine lord and his brood. I recall it as a very suffocating period.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:45:48 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: DEVOTION
Message:
Hi Peg
I related to what you said about '...lack of willingness to take responsibility ...' leading to devotion. I think that was part of it for me. It was also due to low self esteem which led me to think I wasn't strong enough to get through, without some kind of 'parent' type figure. So I gave my power away to M. I have taken it back now and it sure feels good.
Best Magiclara
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:15:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Meditation begins in the form of
Message:
the Master. Adoration begins at the feet of the Lord.

I did not have the same inclination for devotion as you but I certainly have a penchant for awe. Maharajism triggered that in me big time.

But I loved that you also adored little old ladies who know all the birds in their garden. Much better an object of veneration than a Hindu businessman.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:38:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jim and Joe in re; your skepticism
Message:
I just want to let you know that I appreciate it greatly. I may not be an atheist like you guys. Well I was until I got involved on FV in Jan - then I decided that I was being too dogmatic for myself as I need to re-examine every inch of the philosophy that I had formed under the influence of Maharajism. So now I'm agnostic.

Whenever I talk about ''Knowledge'' (aka gyanyoga) in a remotely positive way, I feel that I need to qualify it which I really didn't yesterday. I use the words ''Knowledge'' and yoga etc because they are shortcuts, loaded words for an audience that knows what they mean.

What I mean by K is excitement, elation and awe. Of course I had experienced those feelings before meeting the Rawat Family Circus but the whole gurujism juju is designed to tap into a penchant in humans to be intoxicated with beauty. Satsang and service (the group high) gave me those feelings so I got K eventhough I did not like, trust or respect Rev Rawat. Oops and then darshan happened. The full force of conditioning, expectations and wishful thinking kicked in and I slept with Pauline Premie in her car for the next 8 years.

Then I one day had the guts to allow myself to see him the way I really did deep down and I wrote him a letter telling him he was a fraud. Then began a few years of hell. I suffered mentally and became neurotic and pessimistic. I rotted like a webvan of veggies. I got sick for years. But it coincided with the onset of the AIDS plague and all our friends were sick and dying too. Chuck and I pulled ourselves out of the terrible abyss of losing most of our friends with science of mind, the practice of optimism and positive thinking.

During my years of illness I also went back to Rev Rawat and would always feel good when I went to see him so I continued sending money but somewhere along the line there seemed to be no difference between going to see and not because my improved outlook on life had made his ''programs'' seem boring. I finally figured out that my effort is what had got me where I was.

To cut a long story short - by the time I went back last year - because I wanted to do service, I found that (I am sorry to say this premies) there was exactly one sane person in the community. The rest were either on SSI (welfare) for mental problems or were social misfits, neurotic, impractical, fantastical, depressed or lazy and unemployed. (The reason why the Erica's of premiedom crow about their financial and material success is because it is not the norm in premiedom.) To say the least, I was astonished. At this time I still attributed my happiness to Knowledge and could not fathom that premies had not benefitted from it as much as I had.

I now know that my happiness was a result of my own cheerful outlook on life, my own strength and stoicism in the face of another health problem (colostomy for two years) not ''Knowledge'' or PSR. So I just wanted to let you know that I do not imbue K with any special powers. My own effort was the magic that transformed my attitude and experience of life.

So I'm a card-carrying breatharian but that's for means of relaxation not some prescientific chakra masturbating trip or even some vague ''living master stream of consciousness ego-tripping'' Maharajism BS. Feeling great is natural and the only time that I don't is when I haven't had a good night's sleep or another organ konks out. I'm just as skeptical as you are about K and approach it very much as a study now but I am curious because I would like to be able to explain it scientifically or at least in western terms. However I do not base my happiness on it. I base my happiness on my own strength.

Knowledge is really hooey. Most of us in the west have private rooms and enough time to spend alone and in reflection. The techniques were developed in a culture where everyone one slept in two rooms and were seldom alone. They are designed to create a quiet private space to be alone for a while. That's all they are. That's it.

We don't really need that in the west unless you are the mother of ten screaming rugrats and have your mother-in-law living with you. Just being alone and quiet accomplishes everything that K provides. The rest is pure religion, pure superstitious nonsense. Premies think that maharajism is not a dangerous religion because it is clothed in parables of flying planes and inventing watches. Maybe it is not dangerous but it certainly is infantile.

PS Let's check out the linear conferencing thingy that aOaji mentioned. Sounds good.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 12:37:59 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks Pat -- appreciate ur support! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:27:25 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Knowledge and being secular
Message:
What I mean by K is excitement, elation and awe.

I don't understand, Pat, why don't you call it exicitement, or whatever? Why call it knowledge if that isn't what it is?

I don't believe I've ever said I'm an Athiest, and I don't like that term. I guess I just consider myself and entirely secular person. I don't feel it's necessary to give yourself a term or a label depending on your belief in a supreme being. I just really resist that kind of label. I prefer to think of myself as operating with beliefs outside that realm. So, I just say I'm secular or maybe a secular humanist.

Actually, I recently heard Susan Sontag do an interview and that's how she described herself as well. It just makes more sense to me, rather than go through all kinds of unnecessary analysis about whether god exists or not. I just think that's a waste of time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:08:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Knowledge and being secular
Message:
I seldom make a post nowadays without thinking about the few premies whom I know who have started reading here and I write for them a lot now. I use the word Knowledge for them because it is a concept that they understand.

I understand completely about being a secular humanist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:28:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Skepticism
Message:
You know Pat, I have been giving this a lot of thought myself. Up until a couple of months ago I would have never considered the idea of Atheism. It seemed to me that Atheists were people who were rebelling the other people's ideas of G/gods rather than their own disbelief in anything.

Even though I dismissed the Satsang of earlier years in my departure from M and the premie scene I always felt a relationship to godlikeness or something (difficult to put in words).

I have had been reluctant to feel any belief since I dug up the premie/guru/devotion stuff I had repressed over the years. But since I have purged that shit out of my system I have noticed that any concept of G/god is gone. And gone is the idea that it is empty or meaningless. Just gone. Free. NOTHING.

However, the concept of Atheism freaks people out worse than believing the wrong god. So, the idea of buying a new label is challenging.

I think the need to put a label on internal experiences or results of our well intended faith is a difficult paradox. Just placing the label of Atheist is to label it a 'thing' or 'concept' or is it?

your thoughts ;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:10:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Skepticism - agnosticism
Message:
I guess like Joe I am most comfortable being called a secular or ethical humanist but don't mind the word agnostic because I really don't know about all that god stuff and don't really need to know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 21:56:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Agnosticism is just a compromise with tradition
Message:
If you really started with a blank sheet and asked yourself what we really know about life, God and the other, well, you wouldn't be starting with a blank sheet, no would you? Where'd this 'God' thing come from?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 14:06:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll let Joe argue that one with you
Message:
He's more competent and capable than me. Okay, so I'm being evasive. ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:34:47 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes dear twinnie **GREAT POST**
Message:
Dear Pat,

I especially liked the part of your post about practicing K (or any other form of meditation for that matter), creating a private space, a space for being alone and reflecting. Often when I come home from work, I meditate lying down on the floor in a quiet room (with something propped up under my knees, I'm getting old, ya know). It feels like a space to reflect, to float in spaciousness, to center, to rest, to be. I don't feel like I am practicing yoga, kundalini, magical juju, whatever. It's a nice way to chill. I usually don't fall asleep, because there's a certain sense of alertness and awakeness along with the relaxation brought on by the various meditation techniques. Taking a 15-minute nap and just falling asleep would definitely not have the same effect, and I'd be disoriented (having to wake up) rather than refreshed.

Love, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:42:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Jim and Joe in re; your skepticism
Message:
how to get rid of. Haven't got the hang of this editing mode yet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 01:15:24 (EDT)
From: Recent Expremie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Letter to Elan Vital & IRCC Staff
Message:
Kaye McKinnion
Marna Smith
Joint National Contacts
Elan Vital Inc.
PO Box 521
TOOWONG QLD 4066

Dear Kaye & Marna,

Re: Concerns Regarding Volunteers

For sometime I have been considering writing to you both with regard to some of my concerns and first hand experiences encountered when being involved in the organisation of Elan Vital as a volunteer over many years.

Unfortunately, I shall remain nameless, because I have witnessed how people of Elan Vital are viewed should they wish to express their views that are intelligent, but different to the group norm. I have observed often people being dismissed and told they are not team players. and frowned upon, with no real communication as to the reasons why. I can only conclude from this example that there is a severe lack of openness in Elan Vital and IRCC hence my nameless letter.

You may wish to disregard and trivialise my concerns, however I am not the only person to feel this way. . I know many people personally. who are exhausted, frustrated and humiliated with the organisation and the laborious way it continues to operate. These people are sincere wonderful people who have put in a real effort for a very long time, but sadly have decided to no longer participate.

For many years I have endeavoured to do “service” or participate within Elan Vital organisation. My efforts have always been sincere, heartfelt and without personal ambition.

I have made a decision to no longer participate, I can no longer support and give my free time to an organisation who has continually mistreated its’ people over an extended timeframe.

You see, I never came along to be involved in an organisation that doesn’t treat its’ people equally or well, I came because of a desire inside of myself to be fulfilled and this was the avenue to discover that fulfilment, it certainly wasn’t to discover frustration and humiliation at the hands of others. To be exposed year after year to the ambition of others and the pecking order makes me sick to my stomach
,
Here is the dot point summary of concerns and first hand experiences as a volunteer:

 The endless years of enduring discriminating behaviour by those in paid positions at EV and IRCC is absolutely shocking. You have all so carelessly and thoughtlessly inflicted your discrimination on people and this has happened countless times by:
 Jan McGregor
 Cath Carroll
 Kaye McKinnion
 From my experience those mentioned above all sit in judgement of others and determine where they think people should be in the pecking order.
 People being dismissed from roles without any cause or explanation as to why
 Being politically moved out of a position by others and replaced with others deemed more suitable but in reality are not due to their skill base. In effect making the time and effort put into applying for jobs meaningless
 Being picked for “training” sessions and if not deemed suitable humiliated. Without being provided with any real reason why any human discussion as to why is strongly discouraged and can be met with silence. Following on after training I was again excluded from discussions at the team meeting with the advent of “Secrecy”
 “Secrecy” - with the introduction of “confidentially” people were no longer free to converse in an adult manner without first saying “this is a secret” don’t tell anyone. This can give the appearance that there is much to hide.
 The endless drafting and approving of lists of who can go to meetings, especially when the ‘speaker” is on site at IRCC. This in affect includes some and excludes others. As an example of who can attend a meeting I was working with a team! and a meeting was scheduled for the next day. I wasn’t invited or provided with an explanation why.
 Objectively observing over a 20 years time frame it seems the same group of people are at the top and just recycled in positions.
 From reading the latest EV update the figures provide some interesting questions:
 109 people in Australia received K after two years? 22 and 28 in Vic and Sydney and 59 at IRCC, these figures seem to indicate the lack of effectiveness with how EV is operating and its’ stated mission of spreading M message.
 75 people took up home viewing from NZ/Aus, isn’t there a standard group of 2000+, isn’t the combined NS/Aust take up number of rather 75 small
 The number of attendances by Australians at events is dropping, 1300 went to IRCC for a 4-day event with plenty of notice. Were EV talks about growth, this indicates a decline in attendances from PWK
 The numbers tell a real story. I would certainly be concerned if this was my “Job”.
 To Kaye, Jan and Cath, with regard to accountability, you should all be held accountable for the endless ill treatment of others, the continued discrimination.
.
‘ “WHY” people don’t want to participate.
It is not valid that people don’t want to participate because they don’t know how (which is often touted in the meetings). People aren’t participating because in fact they don’t want to, even though they can.

For others and myself I have spoken to I no longer wish to be exploited without respect, kindness. and value. Looking at it today it is a far cry from the freedom, love and enthusiasm that was evident initially.

Over time this has been lost.

Sincerely,
A PERSON WITH KNOWLEDGE

cc. Cath Caroll/Jan McGregor
IRCC

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:57:38 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: Bravo
Message:
Hi Person,
I imagine that must have taken a lot of courage. I've heard similar things about the scene in Australia. Sounds as though a lot of people are being exploited and not cared for. Also the culture of paranoia seems to make for a very uncomfortable working environment.

The last time I went to a 'video event' I found it cold, paranoid and dysfunctional. A very uptight woman wanted to know all my details and to fill out lots of forms. It's like the heart has gone or been consumed by this strange money making venture.

Good luck and I hope someone hears you.

Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 21:58:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sorry, but 'courage'?
Message:
I think it's a great letter too and a really wonderful thing for Recent Expremie to being casting off the shackles of yesterday (Isn't that a line from Mary Poppins?), but 'courage'? It's anonymous!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:52:17 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: Re: Letter to Elan Vital & IRCC Staff
Message:
Thanks for your honesty. The same thing is going on in the US. This is what happens when lawyers, corporate guidelines and professional public relation firms are used in the name of 'service'. Here, Ira Woods is now top instructor contact. He announced he was asked by M if he would like to work for him again in a local program....He was working as a car salesman after the big instructor washout. He actually did a demo with computer graphics etc interspersing it all with sales techniques such as how many seconds a person has to get a point across in the intial introduction of knowledge. But ask him a real question and all he would say is 'I have no opinion about that.' I know new premies who absolutely refused to go to a knowledge session followup because he was the one heading it. When I brought up his behavior I was practically tarred and feathered.
It's this bullying attitude and endless interviewing for participation positions that is absolutely revolting. All in the name of getting syncronized. Funny how people with lots of money or the infamous large contributors end up with whatever they want.
Then again, it all starts from the top position.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:23:03 (EDT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: One person missing
Message:
And of course this includes the head of the organization the very guru. He is as responsible as everyone else for promoting such heartless behavior. I just wanted to make it clear otherwise it sounds like bad EV only.
Welcome to reality and I don't mean the forum.

Mercedes

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:27:25 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Re: One person missing
Message:
Good to see you are around Mercedes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:50:55 (EDT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Hi Richard
Message:
Hi Richard I usually read FVI I have not been inspired to write.
I'll be off to Oregon next week hope to see you at some point.
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:27:52 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: This is your chance
Message:
Dear Anon
There is one person you mentioned that you did not critize. I suggest you contact them. There is a major change occurring in Australia. Perhaps you might consider the possibility that you may get a hearing.
IRCC is no longer run by Jan and Terry. I happen to agree with a lot of your points. I think you need to give it a go. MS if you dont know who I mean. Give it a try.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 05:56:45 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: Oh dear.
Message:
Recent Ex,

It sounds to me like you've been talking to the hate-filled monmats on the forum, and have begun, (Lord preserve us) to think for yourself again.

This is a very dangerous pastime and could end up with you taking responsibility for your own life, and cancelling your regular monthly cult contribution.

If the Golden Age of Peace doesn't materialise, it will will probably be your fault.

I wouldn't worry about using your own name. As you hint in your letter, the only people who will view you as wierd are the Rawat worshipping toe-kissers. And what wierder bunch of acid casualties can you find than that lot?

Anth, it was the drugz wot made me do it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:29:40 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Oh dear.
Message:
Anth , you are a loser. Stop spinning.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:11:59 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.co.uk
To: CW
Subject: Wow, that told him...
Message:
Anth , you are a loser. Stop spinning.


---

'Spin' implies distortion - I see none. Can you explain?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:47:10 (EDT)
From: Nottingham Mole
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: I remember when
Message:
I remember when Kay was a really sweet part-time Kiwi instructor. Well that's what I saw. And then she became a honcho and moved to Australia. The friend I thought I had started to transform so fast I was shocked when I saw her at the first(?) Amaroo.

I remember MJ saying 'You can see where deviation starts but you don't where it might end up'.

Ironic, isn't it?

NM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:31:58 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: Re: I remember when
Message:
Wrong. She is still a sweetheart. Tryseeing her as you used too. She is the same person.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:08:30 (EDT)
From: Nottingham Mole
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: I remember when
Message:
I am sure she is and I still have more fond memories than that last one. I have not seen her for a long time.

My observation is however, that something strange happens to people in positions of power. This of course is not peculiar to EV. Blame and fear cultures do that to people in many organisations.

But what is knowledge supposed to do? There are many behaviours in EV honchos and PAMs that are outcome driven (putting it mildly)and do not reflect well on that.

NM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 02:35:35 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: I agree NM
Message:
I too am very fond of Kaye. But there is a definte perception that her need to 'fulfil her brief' (ie: earn her pay) led to behaviour that was manipulative and unproductive to the greater good and most certainly as you say, was outcome driven. It must be hard to constantly trying to be seen to be 'achieving' something, so that reports to M could be proudly presented. I think many are intimidated by his extraordinary efficiency and attention to detail that they fall over themselves trying to please. And I guess, in the process, fall over others too.
To the IRCC letter writer...I wouldn't bother writing to Marna Smith, my guess is that after new staff elections she won't be there either. Just wait and see what the new guard offers. I know M has been very much less than enthusiastic about what's happened in OZ for awhile. Change is good and necessary.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 04:10:25 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: I agree NM
Message:
Elections? What planet do you live on? That's a load of self indulgent rubbish.I think you may well have told me more about you than anything else.You seem so 'well informed'. The pity is that here , in this place you have just demonstrated you know Diddley Squat. You have shown your colours though - another fucking politician.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 14:02:38 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: CW
Subject: CW shows his true colors
Message:
Pussy, you just said something which has confirmed a hunch that I have had about you for a long time. Please feel free to email me under any old alias you choose. I know you have been trying to say this for a while and no one really listens but it's all been adding up.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:17:42 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: Nothing New
Message:
Good points NM, I recall the same thing back 20 years ago. Some things don't change.

You mention correctly that power positions sometimes change people in any organization, but I think there is a big difference.

In most other organizations, like in business, government, etc., somebody in a power position knows that he or she will be evaluated on how well things function and the results. Hence, managers who abuse their workers, whom they NEED to be successful, don't last long.

On the other hand, as has always been true in Elan Vital and the Maharaji cult, there is no such evaluation, no effective means of knowing if things are successful or not, because it all comes from whether Maharaji approves or not, and he is about the worst manager you could imagine. He has never had to be fiscally responsible, because he relies on donations, doesn't have to satisfy customers, etc.

Plus, people who get positions in EV and the cult, often feel it is because they are spiritually evolved, perhaps in good with M, etc. and that is the source of their position, not how effective they are with working with people.

Plus, in the Maharaji cult it always has been who you know, what cult circle you hang out in, and how much money you have/donate, that gets you someplace. It's disgusting, and I'm sure that will never change.

Ira Woods never had any interpersonal skills, so I'm surprised he could sell cars. I remember when he was on a campaign in the late 70s to have us stand up and scream in parks to spread knowledge. It was a disaster, but Maharaji actively supported this ridiculous endeavor.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:31:03 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What? Screaming in parks? You're not kidding?
Message:
Good God, was this really method of 'prachar'? Most people I know just love to change their beliefs by being shouted at. Works every time.

Is there any more to tell about this bonehead Ira and his wacky notions?

Can you imagine being told to do this bizarre action, and then agreeing to carry it out?

What was it, like 'shouting from the rooftops' or something? What was shouted? 'Wake up Mankind! Your Lord and Saviour is here! Bow down and worship him!'

Whew. It was bad enough going from door to door pushing And It Is Divine. That lasted for one night.

Best,
Carl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:13:07 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Yep
Message:
Around 1979, Ira Woods was an initiator stationed in Boston. He got this idea that premies should go to parks with a big picture of Maharaji and just start talking really loud, giving satsang. Ira was really into this, and there was basically this idea that if you didn't do it, if you didn't go along, you were not devoted or surrendered.

Then, when Maharaji heard about this he said, reportedly, 'this is how it's going to happen. So, other communities felt they had to get involved.

So, I was coordinator in DC at the time, and the initiators in DC lobbied to do the Ira thing, and we set up a picture of M at Farragut Square, at lunchtime, when lots of people were eating there lunch there. We just started giving satsang loud. It was nuts. One one occasion, a TV station got footage of it and did this really satirical story about it. I got a recording of the video and played it for Ira.

Then, when I was CC in Miami shortly after that, Ira wanted me to get a permit for a PARADE of premies through Miami. Fortunately, Maharaji had a conference with the initiators and he was really negative and pissed about EVERYTHING, so Ira got freaked and was afraid to do ANYTHING and so the parade was nixed.

But the screaming in the parks went on for about 6 months until it was quietly abandoned, just like all the other 'propagation' schemes in the Maharaji cult, and just like the current propagation scheme will also be abandoned, with gullible premies taking each, new scheme as the one that is finally going to work.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:25:33 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yikes. Worse than Jesus freaks.
Message:
The Indian people are really into parades and processions and shouting slogans and so on.

As a band member I was afraid that at some point we'd be asked to form a marching band to drum up converts.

Even the Salvation Army has more class.

The constant atmosphere of peer pressure and 'I'm more devoted than you are': as you say, 'there was basically this idea that if you didn't do it, if you didn't go along, you were not devoted or surrendered.' The old Race For Grace. One could never do enough, you'd never measure up, it was futile, but you still had to try, hoping for a smile or a wink of approval that would indicate you'd just attained heaven on earth.

Ira: what a bozo. Glad I missed that period!

Carl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:31:21 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: It didn't last long
Message:
And it didn't work either, just like nothing else, after about 1973 worked either. Between 1977 and 1983 there were virtually no aspirants, just a handful here and there. We were so turned in on just giving Maharaji the outrageous stuff he wanted during that period that there wasn't much energy to ensnare others. Plus, we looked like the most raving, weird, bizarre cult you could imagine and hardly anybody was interested anyway.

I know I stopped telling people about knowledge because I knew they wouldn't be able to relate to the byzantine process you had to go through to get knowledge, the premies, and how weird Maharaji was. Remember, he was prancing and dancing on stage half naked at the time. Plus, I wasn't very happy as a premie, so what was there to tell people about?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:42:18 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I remember Ira in DC...
Message:
Hey Joe-

I remember that ' that satsang yelling experiment' that went on in DC at that time.....

Remember Jimmy Goldstein bringing his little amplifier and microphone that the band used to use, and haranguing people down at the mall?

Truly embarrassing...

Not to mention Eric Reinemer who used to go down and make fun of people who went to the museums in DC, in his satsangs....

Plus Ira, Prouty, Imbarrato, Colpass and other asorted lunatics?

What were we putting up with? And why?

did you ever save that news clip?

LA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:04:42 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: I remember Ira in DC...more names....
Message:
Let's see....

Eric Reinemer married Sally Vanmanen,another instructor...
Sally always seemed like a girl scout leader to me...very wholesome, mid western sensibility (why was SHE in the cult?)..teacher at Unity School....(maybe she should be contcted regarding the jagdeo affair)

Eric used to take the portable mike and amplifier and yell at people in front of the Smithsonian....I remember one day he was telling at a group of foreign visitors to our nations capital...telling them that they were all crazy and wasting their lives for going into the museum...he said that they were as dead as the stuffed birds in the glass displays...(of course, if they got the knowledge, well maybe there was some hope for them..)

Jimmy Goldstein screaming through his PA system at other people on the mall about how his father told him to become a doctor, but he didn't want to be a doctor, because it wasn't the 'source' of true happiness....

Yes, quite a nice advertisement for the 'knowledge of all knowledges'...

And meanwhile, back at the satsang hall, we had a steady stream of instructors yelling at the premies every night....Randy Prouty giving his trademark 'heavy satsang' about 'nobody makes it without surrender, not even the best premie, unless they are personally surrendered to guru maharaj ji'...
Alan Imbaratto,with the eyes of an assassin, honing in on premies to badger about all of their 'trips', and pressuring non-ashramers into moving into the ashram, completely freaking out all married couples and families....

I remember one night that maharaji actually stayed in the residence that David Horsford started in the DC suburbs (Dave became a 'man' a few months later in that house...probably the best thing that ever happened to him-getting married and raising a kid with his pretty wife...a good friend of his from Gainesville told me that he told Dave to take the opportunity to get the hell out of the ashram and run with it, which he did..)
Anyway, maharaji was staying at the house, and there ws a chance that he might come to the hall....
A bunch of us invited 'new people' to satsang that night, in hopes of maybe having the guests see the lard himself...
Thank god the guest never came...neither did lard..maybe the cognac was flowing at the Brixton house that night, I'm not sure....
A female instructor from Mexico got up and screamed at the premies, telling them that they weren't devoted enough, and that Americans were fat, spoiled and lazy...completely filled with a wierd sort of hate, with devotion, or lack of devotion being the subject of the 'satsang'...

Oh my god, what were we doing?

Were those the 'good old days?'

Strange, huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 01:40:03 (EDT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Eric and Sally
Message:
Let's see....

Eric Reinemer married Sally Vanmanen,another instructor...
Sally always seemed like a girl scout leader to me...very wholesome, mid western sensibility (why was SHE in the cult?)..teacher at Unity School....(maybe she should be contcted regarding the jagdeo affair)


---

Eric is one of the finance team big wigs and Sally is again an instructor. They are good people too bad they are brainwashed all the way.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:57:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Those names
Message:
I had fogotten the name Eric Reinemer, but he really was the Ira wannabe who instigated the Farragut Square debacle, and also, now that you remind me I am so embarrassed, those yelling events in front of the Smithsonian right on the mall in front of the Capitol. Right, we had portable speakers, battery powered.

Eric was a nice guy, though. Wonder whatever happened to him?

Re the news clip. Yes, I got a copy of the video, called 'Lunch at Farragut Square' from the TV station and brought it to Miami to a program a couple of weeks later. I showed it to Ira, partly just to let him know what was going on, and partly to imply that what we were doing looked terrible to people, even though Maharaji was personally in favor of it. I didn't say that directly, but the video freaked Ira, and he said so.

Later, I remember Dennis Marciniak talking about how weird it was that Ira was allowed to do what he did.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:31:21 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dennis Marciniak, Dennis Marciniak ... ???
Message:
That name is so familiar. Was he ever a 'house father' or whatever in Minneapolis? And what about Sharon Stokke? I remember her from MPLS ashram also. I guess she stayed in the cult pretty deeply, huh? I thought she had more natural good sense than that, but I guess not. Shame.

Is Erica Anderson still playing trumpet and doing Ouija board channelings of Lao Tzu? (These were some of her common activities in Houston circa Millennium '73).

Just curious.
Carl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:36:58 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Dennis, Erica, Sharon
Message:
Yes, Sharon is still in the cult, and was even working for Elan Vital a while back, although I was told she got fired.

I thought Dennis was from Milwaukee, and also lived in Detroit, but maybe Minneapolis too. He eventually became President of Elan Vital/DLM in the late 70s, and was president when I was in Miami 1979-1980. I always liked Dennis. He was a regular guy. I have no idea where he is now.

Erica Andersen, well there is a story. She showed up on the forum a few months ago and got bashed around a bit, was questioning, but who knows? He brother, David, is a premie contributor and apologist for the Lord on Lifes Great from time to time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 01:29:03 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Dennis, Erica, Sharon
Message:
Sharon is definitely still with EV. She was something like Natinal Coordinator or contact or whatever then a mew 'team' thing happened and now there's another guy, who is rude as heck. Sharon was the overseer at the Santa Monica event 2000 with M. I was doing service before hand and wondered who in the heck the person was who was just sitting there watching us work our tails off. One of the 'team' managers announced with pride that Sharon said what a smoooooth day we had made possible. I was like who and where is this Sharon person?
Lo and behold, it was the lady sitting in judgement over the rest of us peons working our tails off.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 13:56:19 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Does Sharon look like Roseanne Barr?
Message:
I heard that, but haven't seen her myself in years.

Yes, Sharon always wanted to coordinate things, rather than do things herself. She always knew what she wanted and did what she needed to do to get it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:58:59 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Remember Jojo Fisher?
Message:
She was the assistant in the office in DC, and I remember she refused to get up and scream the cult-talk. She felt guilty about it, but in the end, she had more sense than the rest of us. I remember Eric trying to encourage her to do it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 02:14:48 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Recent Expremie
Subject: Amaroo 2001
Message:
Great letter, RE, and welcome!

I have one question for you. You mention 1300 attending a 4 day convention at IRCC. Was that Amaroo 2001? If so, weren't the official figures something like 4500 (I'm not sure as this is from memory)?

If so, someone is trying to pull the wool over someone's eyes!

John

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:34:40 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Amaroo 2001
Message:
Hey !! 1300 Aussies! thats a reflection of our local economy. It's down marginally from 97. 4500 was the TOTAL figure John.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:11:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Amaroo 2001 - 1.300 Aussies
Message:
RE mentioned that only 1,300 AUSSIES attended. Has Latvia had an unusually hot summer, John?

Yes, RE's letter is brilliant. Welcome, RE. I'm also a recent expremie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 00:52:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is this not the sexiest thing you've ever seen?
Message:
Sorry, but why isn't anyone interested in Aoaji's knowledgeable advice regarding the forum format? It really does seem like it could be an incredibly great improvement to move off the thread model into the linear conferencing one he's talking about. Check out some of the links (although I'm sure most everyone's seen one of the other kinds of forums some time or another). Yes, there are hurdles but, in my opinion, this is worth seriously considering.

Now, honestly, isn't this the sexiest thing you've ever seen?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:41:47 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I thought it was sexy ;)
Message:
I went to the motet site and checked out the conferencing samples. Very slick, indeed. I like that you can access a thread/topic and see all those posts without all the BACK buttoning.

I'm considering it for my Club forum as well. Spot on A0aji!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:36:25 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: you could do worse [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:19:50 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My two pennysworth
Message:
Hi Jim/Aoji et al

I'm barely posting /reading anything at the moment....I'm about to have a break when my back gets better...then after I'll be busy .....

so it may ormay not be some time before I'm a regular again.

However, the linear stuff looks good....I've read most but not all of the relevant posts below.

At the moment I've just got one suggestion IF you all decide to go down the legal entity route. Don't set up a corporation but rather set up a LLC (Limited Liability Company)

* Easier to set up and run
* owned/ controlled by any/all members
* members can be added easily
* much more flexible than a corp
* A legal ' operating agreement ' as simple or as complicated as you want/ need it
* much less reporting hassle / duties etc with regard state & federal authorities

* often used by business/s as alternative to corp OR by partners for 'corporate' like entity but partner or individual taxing
* so flexible can be used for almost ANYTHING ie gay partners could be members of LLC and have everything run through it (property, wills, insurance etc etc )and be legally 'married' in all but name.

.....jsut go to any incorporating service via google.com eg type in Delaware or Nevada or any state ....LLC....read up on its pros/ cons in comparison to corps etc.

Practically every state offers them .....think Wyoming was first ( originally it was based on a swedish(?) or German business model.

For ABSOLUTE privacy , probably Nevada is best followed by Delaware perhaps ....South Dakota ....etc .....but little real difference whichever state you set it up in.

Anyways.......that's all from me.

Cheers

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:32:17 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: My two pennysworth
Message:
Hi Jim/Aoji et al

I'm barely posting /reading anything at the moment....I'm about to have a break when my back gets better...then after I'll be busy .....

so it may ormay not be some time before I'm a regular again.

However, the linear stuff looks good....I've read most but not all of the relevant posts below.

At the moment I've just got one suggestion IF you all decide to go down the legal entity route. Don't set up a corporation but rather set up a LLC (Limited Liability Company)

* Easier to set up and run
* owned/ controlled by any/all members
* members can be added easily
* much more flexible than a corp
* A legal ' operating agreement ' as simple or as complicated as you want/ need it
* much less reporting hassle / duties etc with regard state & federal authorities

* often used by business/s as alternative to corp OR by partners for 'corporate' like entity but partner or individual taxing
* so flexible can be used for almost ANYTHING ie gay partners could be members of LLC and have everything run through it (property, wills, insurance etc etc )and be legally 'married' in all but name.

.....jsut go to any incorporating service via google.com eg type in Delaware or Nevada or any state ....LLC....read up on its pros/ cons in comparison to corps etc.

Practically every state offers them .....think Wyoming was first ( originally it was based on a swedish(?) or German business model.

For ABSOLUTE privacy , probably Nevada is best followed by Delaware perhaps ....South Dakota ....etc .....but little real difference whichever state you set it up in.

Anyways.......that's all from me.

Cheers

Dermot


---

Thanks, Dermot.

Two different communities I know set up as a California Cooperative
Corporation. I don't know why; but they had good lawyers available
for this, and chose that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 11:47:45 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: My two pennysworth/Non-profits
Message:
I recently talked to my lawyer about setting up a non-profit for another group I am involved with.

His short response was this:

It would take about 1&1/2 years and $1000.00 to set one up, after you jump through all the hoops they put you through...

With a lawyers help, it could probably be done for $1500.00 in about one year....

It would cost a bit more with an attorney, but would be a lot easier and a bit shorter to accomplish.

Does this jive with what anyone else has heard?

Also, if we had an attorney at epo willing to do it, it might become quicker and cheaper....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:41:11 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: True but...
Message:
Yep a cooperative probabaly has advantages but as a 'corporation' you still have to have your exec officers, treasurers etc and THEY have their legal responsilities. With members of a LLC it's much more flexible....yeah you'd probably need people to carry out similar roles but others can take over whenevr required.

I don't know too much about 'cooperative' corporations I admit but I doubt very much if anything is as all embracing yet as flexible as LLC. I may be wrong but doubt it.

LLC affords TOTAL limited liability ( and much less need for lawyers :) ) whilst retaining non corporate flexibiltiy.

Anyways I'm sure the most appropriate model will be chosen by consensus .....maybe your model is the one.

Cheers

Dermot

gotta go now !!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:02:32 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: True but...
Message:
Cool.

Becoming a non-profit makes us eligible for discounts on some
services we may need (including a Motet license at a discounted
rate, if we went with Motet; 'friends' of our community may
require we incorporate before they give us a discounted rate
for services such as co-location or hosting).

I think some of the main goals of incorporation should be:

1. group ownership of common property (the computer we obtain
and its data content)

2. ability to enter into contracts as a non-profit org

3. ability to receive grant monies, non-profit exemptons, etc.

4. legally-verifiable tax credit for donors

5. ability to establish a body that votes and makes decisions
that affect the system we all have to use

#4 just means if Jo Citizen writes a check to FooExPrem,
she gets to declare her tax credit.

#5 prevents a Captain Bligh from running the ship according
to whim.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:41:59 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: send mail
Message:
Jim, shoot me an e-mail, please. I don't have your address on file.

a0aji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 07:10:08 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Uh? Where?
Message:
I'm only the FA here and haven't seen that post. Maybe you should get a new FA. What forums and where?

If anyone wants to start a new forum, i.e. Forum 7, then please DO IT. This forum is only my emergency forum set up until someone does something better. I don't have the time to fiddle about creating any more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 22:59:31 (EDT)
From: Deena
Email: None
To: All
Subject: MIND
Message:
I realize that I've been outta the mix for a while here, but have I got it right that premies are being fed by M that they got stuff wrong way back when and that's why confusion reigned supreme? That they misunderstood when he spoke of mind and thought he meant brain? Hello? He's always been clear that mind was the chatter that goes on in your head, the doubt creator according to him. Mind was what kept you from completely surrendering...that nagging doubt that he told you to put aside. The one that if you paid any attention to would mean you'd leave.

To me, this more than anything else, is what makes Maharaji the leader of a cult. It's mind control that defines it...and today he may use other lingo to express what he wants, like, listen to your heart and trust. Makes me wonder...if you listen to a beautiful bird song or watch the sunset, do you need to trust the experience? Is there a need to struggle in order to repeat that experience? It comes naturally. But hearing M, the process of coming to receive K etc. is presented in stages. You have to be an aspirant for one stage, a premie for the next. Secrets. M says it's because it's so there will be trust.

Yikes, that's why some people, actually the majority of people who go to the public events don't pursue the whole thing. It's clear to them. M says it is because it is only a few that will recognize this...it's for everyone on earth, but it's so special only a few...blah blah blah.

If confusion reigned supreme, or still does, it's because he continually dances around changing things and keeps his premies heads spinning so that they have difficulty keeping up with it all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:53:44 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: You hit the nail on the head, Deena nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:01:55 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: ***GREAT POST***
Message:
And welcome back Deena. I've only been around on the Forum for about 6 months, but I walked in the mid 80s and left in stages. Deconstructing the myth and misinformation we were fed has been really good for me.

Best wishes, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:20:24 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Re: MIND - brilliant, Deena
Message:
Thanks for a common sense look at it. Yes, his holeyness is now saying that we misunderstood what he was saying all along because we had so many Hindu concepts. ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:54:49 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Hindu concepts!
Message:
I wonder where on earth we could have got those from?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:16:56 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Remember Teddy Tannenbaum?
Message:
He was a honcho in Elan Vital for a number of years. I don't think he's a premie anymore, at least that's what I heard, but I don't know for sure.

In the continuing tradition of what people who were premies do, Teddy is a 'coach' for effective communications, teambuilding, 'coaching' etc. He has apparently built a business out of it, called Tannenbaum Consulting. Did Joan Apter, Mitch Ditkoff, Dettmers, the Cronins, etc., all get together and decide to do this stuff? And are there actually people/organizations that hire people to do this, apparently useless activity?:

Check out his website, with pictures of he himself, at the following address. Note the cute 'teddycoach' reference:

www.teddycoach.com/html/mchome.html

I notice that Teddy is also baseball fan and a cigar afficienado.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 05:06:45 (EDT)
From: Andrew Coran
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Remember Teddy Tannenbaum?
Message:
He was a honcho in Elan Vital for a number of years. I don't think he's a premie anymore, at least that's what I heard, but I don't know for sure.

In the continuing tradition of what people who were premies do, Teddy is a 'coach' for effective communications, teambuilding, 'coaching' etc. He has apparently built a business out of it, called Tannenbaum Consulting. Did Joan Apter, Mitch Ditkoff, Dettmers, the Cronins, etc., all get together and decide to do this stuff? And are there actually people/organizations that hire people to do this, apparently useless activity?:

Check out his website, with pictures of he himself, at the following address. Note the cute 'teddycoach' reference:

www.teddycoach.com/html/mchome.html

I notice that Teddy is also baseball fan and a cigar afficienado.


---

whats up Joe , got a small willy? Teddy is a cool dude, take care with your words, some people love to make a contribution to this life and do not deserve such stupid comment from people like your self.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 12:52:12 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andrew Coran
Subject: Joe's willy.
Message:
He was a honcho in Elan Vital for a number of years. I don't think he's a premie anymore, at least that's what I heard, but I don't know for sure.

In the continuing tradition of what people who were premies do, Teddy is a 'coach' for effective communications, teambuilding, 'coaching' etc. He has apparently built a business out of it, called Tannenbaum Consulting. Did Joan Apter, Mitch Ditkoff, Dettmers, the Cronins, etc., all get together and decide to do this stuff? And are there actually people/organizations that hire people to do this, apparently useless activity?:

Check out his website, with pictures of he himself, at the following address. Note the cute 'teddycoach' reference:

www.teddycoach.com/html/mchome.html

I notice that Teddy is also baseball fan and a cigar afficienado.


---

whats up Joe , got a small willy? Teddy is a cool dude, take care with your words, some people love to make a contribution to this life and do not deserve such stupid comment from people like your self.


---

Joe has a big willy Andrew. I've seen photos.

And while we're on the subject of stupid comments, what exactly do you mean by, 'make a contribution to this life'?

Is there a collection box somewhere or something? What the hell are you talking about? Do you mean his excrement, or the carbon dioxide he breathes out, or the manure he will become one day? Please explain.

Anth the stupid comment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:19:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Andrew Coran
Subject: Care to inform us Andrew?
Message:
I don't know Teddy and didn't suggest he wasn't cool. I found his website, especially his 'breath' quote, apparently taken directly from Maharaji a big vacuous. But since you seem to know the guy, perhaps you could inform us; I mean perhaps you could actually provide information, but not about your 'willy' thank you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:59:24 (EDT)
From: Andrew Coran
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Care to inform us Andrew?
Message:
I know Teddy, he has not practised the noledge for 15 or more years, lives in LA, happily married,runs a consulting business. Not sure about that quote. What makes you say it was m's quote?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:21:59 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Andrew Coran
Subject: Thanks for the info
Message:
I had heard that Teddy was no longer a follower of Maharaji. As for the quote, what does this sound like to you?

People Breathe. The Planet Breathes. It's all we all have in common.

Whether this is true or not, and I don't think it is, doesn't this sound a lot about how M talks these days, going on and on about breath? It sure sounds like it, but maybe he made it up on his own. It's still a vacuous statement IMO.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:15:51 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Coaching
Message:
Hi Joe. Yes, I remember Teddy. Liked Jim's description, pretty apt. Just want to add a couple cents re the coaching thing. This seems to be the latest thing these days and also seems to target successful and business type people (not surprisingly, the ones who can pay the most). I have an old friend from way pre-K who's doing it now, she switched her successful hypnotherapy practice over to this apparently more successful type of business. I get monthly e-bulletins from her with pithy little questions and quotes about how to be more effective in your life. I think it's a sort of personal type of therapy where they help you sort out your life, decide priorities, clear away obstacles to moving ahead etc. She offered to give me a free coaching session but smelling cult-like tendencies, I declined. I saw a book in the bookstore the other day, also, by the most successful of the coaches, but can't remember her name, so if people are interested, they can always seek it out under the psychology/self-help section. I think people who have charismatic and rather charming personalities (such as Teddy and Joan Apter) are drawn to this emerging profession. I wouldn't be surprised if half the initiators became coaches.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 21:34:58 (EDT)
From: D
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Remember Teddy Tannenbaum?
Message:
Joe, you mentioned Joan Apter...is she still involved with M?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:00:25 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: D
Subject: According to a poster on FV
Message:
Dear D,

Don't know this first hand, but according to a poster on FV, at a recent program in Nottingham, England, she was onstage breaking down in tears sobbing about wanting to serve the Lard.

Unfortunately, still jujued. And she's been a premie longer than most Westerners. She was in the green van that went to India with (what became) some of the first premies. The stories are old, but I think some Germans got to Prem Nagar before the guys in the van.

Back in the 70s when I was around her in LA, she was always kind to me. I'm sorry she's still a premie, but that's the breaks. There are a lot of really nice people who still are.

Bests, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:22:28 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: According to a poster on FV
Message:
HI
Joan Apter was at Nottingam at the front in person, but it was on the video of the history of M coming to the west, that she was in tears because of how much M had done for her and how much she adored him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:33:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: How could you keep from barfing? nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:30:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's just Knowledge Lite Lite
Message:
Check out the opening quote:

People Breathe. The Planet Breathes. It's all we all have in common. Organizations are made up of people. To understand them, watch the People Breathe. -Teddy Tannenbaum

Yeah, Teddy was prominent in the Lou Schwartz, three-piece suit, flow-chart, workshop period. '75 - '76.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 00:28:22 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What lessons do we learn?
Message:
The world of BS experts and consultants, gurus, and other unproductive, manipulative poseurs:

How to inflate or camoflage common sense into a mystery that needs to be 'clarified'.

How to create and teach an unnecessary jargon to justify the jabbering of jaws, and the receipt of a sizable fee.

How to create a doubt or worry about some ('spiritual') insufficiency, and then provide the only solution. (Marketing 101)

How to restate the obvious and 'baffle 'em with bullshit'.

How to crow and take credit for all good results, assign blame for all bad outcomes, and avoid responsibility and accountability for all ongoing fuck-ups. Better yet, deny everything.

How to keep changing the rules of the road. Keep 'em guessing so they can't know whether they're coming or going.

Sorry. It's late. Feeling cranky at the moment: So many BS artists on the make in this world. So when are the goddamn meek gonna inherit the world already? It's about time, don't you think?

Carl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 13:50:25 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Yes, learned at the feet of the Perfect Bastard
Message:
Dear Carl,

Good analysis. I think there were and are premies who were instructors or good at the satsang juju (Pat C, Cynthia and others have given great analyses of this phenomenon on FV) -- i.e. the art of baffling them with bullshit and a lot of the other stuff you said. If they don't come clean with themselves and realize it's a crock of shite, they've trained themselves at the feet of the master to be corporate trainers in a secular arena.

Those of us with robust bull-shit-o-meters (I credit you dear, for my 'o-' extensions -- remember your fascination with o-rama, o-matic etc. back at Ranch Shangri La) just don't have the stomach to do that, just aren't full enough of ourselves, or something.

Neither a leader nor a follower be.

Love,
Francesca, who has come with more power than ever before. Don't let me eat any beans.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 04:23:07 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Terrific, Carl
Message:
thanks for that. It was crisp and clear.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:04:28 (EDT)
From: timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: e-mail
Message:
I realize that this will sound utterly off the wall, but is it possible for the rawat/EV machine to mess with my e-mail? Things are a bit weird with it. Please forgive my paranoia, but this is a bit much. BTW, I have never received a response to my question to EV, as to why they are listed as a church. Didn't expect to, but if there is nothing to hide, what is the problem with the question?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:08:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: timmi
Subject: You'd have to be more specific
Message:
Timmi,

There are some people who are really knowledgeable about computers here (though not I, I'm a baby geek.

What, precisely is your e-mail program doing to make you think it was messed up? Don't know if you've been lurking here but a bunch of people received and e-mail with the sir cam virus.

If you get more specific, someone might be able to give you some suggestions.

Bests, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:32:50 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: timmi
Subject: Re: e-mail
Message:
Yes it is possible. When you emailed them you gave them access to your computer, especially since EV people have access via jobs, whatever to internet servers like EarthLink. I'd call your server, they can tell what's up, if they're any good.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:17:38 (EDT)
From: feh
Email: None
To: timmi
Subject: time to buy a vowel [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:22:48 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My email to Thomas, Pia's son
Message:
Thomas,

I was very sorry to hear about your mother's death. I didn't know your mother, but I recently lost my father after a lengthy illness and so I can understand to some degree what you must be feeling. All the best to you and your family.

I felt I must respond to your essay in which you took the opportunity to denegrate those who disagree with you and your late mother about Maharaji and what he is doing and has done. Contrary to your statement, I have not 'spit' on any rose. I was a premie for 10 years and I have not been a follower of Maharaji for 17 years. My conceptions and perceptions of both Maharaji and knowledge are not based on lies and innuendo, they are based on my own, personal experience.

If you are enjoying your experience with knowledge and Maharaji you have every right to express that, and I have every right to express mine. But I think it is terribly unfair to accuse people of spreading misinformation, especially when you make no effort whatsoever to state specifically what are lies and untruths.

Instead, you and the people behind your website simply categorize all criticisms of Maharaji as 'false' with no proof whatsoever, and further state or imply that all people who express or agree with such criticisms are hateful and part of a hate group. That is both unfair and dishonest.

You state the following:

So many people have been filled with misconceptions and lies about Maharaji and Knowledge. To me it is like somebody spitting on the most beautifull rose. How could you ? You walk up to the rose, enjoy it's preciousness and beauty, smell it's wonderfull fragrance and then you just spit on it.

There are a lot of assumptions in that statement, Thomas. Exactly what 'misconceptions and lies' are you referring to? And isn't Maharaji and his many, well-funded organizations, as well as premies themselves, capable of getting the other side of the story out, and to attempt to correct the 'lies and misconceptions' if that's what they really are?

Why have not you, nor your mother when she was alive, nor Elan Vital, nor Maharaji for that matter, contacted the Ex-Premie.Org and related websites and asked that any lies or other misinformation on that website be corrected? Why hasn't that been done, and why, instead, did Elan Vital and Maharaji himself, undertake legal action to try (unsuccessfully) to shut down those websites?

I have personally been in contact with the individuals who are responsible for maintaining the ex-premie.org website, and I am informed that to this day, no premie, no representative of Elan Vital or Maharaji, nor Maharaji himself, have ever made the slightest attempt to correct anything stated there that is wrong or incomplete. Why is that?

I think you will find that the people who no longer want to be involved with Maharaji are fine people. One of the things many of them would like is answers to some basic questions about why Maharaji did what he did in the past, especially in connection with claiming to be divine, asking that we devote our lives to him, and the like, when those things involved us personally. Maharaji has been unwilling to provide those explanations to date.

You may believe Maharaji has no obligation to do so, but I think that's where you and some ex-premies would disagree. I think you would also find that if Maharaji did that, much of the criticism would subside and there would be no need for your late mother's website. Perhaps you should consider how much Maharaji himself is responsible for the comments about him, which you don't like.

Feel free to email me at any time if you would like to discuss this. It would be nice if the website you operate would publish this email, but I will be very surprised if it does, despite your mother's stated desire for 'objectivity.'

Once again, my sincere sympathy to you and your family.

Joe Whalen
San Francisco, California USA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 14:30:11 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: My email to Thomas, Pia's son
Message:
Joe

When I read your posts I get irritated. You ask for reason. You say you only want answers to the countless questions you and others have regarding what Maharaji has said and done. Then all would be well with the world; EPO would cease to have a reason to be; and the ex-premies could go on with their happy and productive lives.

Who are you trying to fool Joe? It has been expressed as recent as a week ago by certain ex-premies that their express goal in participating on these forums and EPO is to bring Maharaji down. Whether you expressly say this yourself is irrelevant because at best, you offer your tacit support for this goal through your support of EPO and the individuals who make no bones about these intentions. At worst you are sleazy and disingenuous in your posts, such as the one addressed to Pia’s son. Are you asking us to believe you are not part of this campaign to bring Maharaji down, and thus conclude you are an unwilling accomplice who is being used by these darker more militant ex-premies? That all you want are answers? Really??

You see, if your goals are in line with those of the ex-premies to bring Maharaji down, period, then your questions are not presented in order to get an answer. Instead they are weapons that are hurled at premies in the hopes of raising doubt in their minds so that if enough of disenchanted premies with doubts get behind this bombardment of questions, it will lead to Maharaji’s demise. True, there will be some who are not quite sure what value Maharaji and Knowledge still has in their own lives who will be affected by your strategy. But that’s their problem; I guarantee it is not Maharaji’s.

Another thing that is relevant Joe is you want answers to questions that take a lifetime of learning to discover. Take just the question of whether someone is divine. In order to answer that question, a person would first need to have an understanding of “divine”. Now for me, it is through Knowledge that I have learned much about the nature of the divine. You said before you didn’t experience much through practicing the techniques so I’m not even sure there would be any reference point for Maharaji to give you an answer. Beside, if you sincerely have questions for somebody, demanding an answer in the way you guys are doing so is not the way to go. Besides, let’s get real Joe. Even if he did give you an answer, you wouldn’t be satisfied because you already have all your answers formulated.

So Joe, you are either an ex-premie’s patsy being used by the likes of Jim Heller and crew, or you are one slimy and dishonest ex-premie propagandist who feels they have a right to take a run at discrediting Pia’s son. What is it?

Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:57:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: R2
Subject: Too stronger word
Message:
If Pia's son wants to join in the argument then he'll obviously get the opposing view thrown at him. That's not an attempt to discredit him.

I can already see that premies are attempting to use Pia's death as some sort of moral weapon against ex-premies. But it won't work. While everybody appreciates that someone has sadly died here and there are grieving family and friends, it changes nothing in the premie versus ex-premie debate.

Using someone's death as a moral weapon is a distasteful thing, in my view. Anth (who knew Pia) made some excellent points about there needing to be a proper tribute to Pia which could be appreciated by all of her friends and family and not just the premies.

Pia's grieving son is naturally going to stick up for his Mother which shows that blood is thicker than water and family ties go beyond arguments about gurus. You see, I think he may be more concerned about defending his Mother's view rather than actually sticking up for Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:29:32 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Too stronger word
Message:
I can already see that premies are attempting to use Pia's death as some sort of moral weapon against ex-premies.

You mean like ex-premies have used Abi? Hey, somebody's got to point that out!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:25:14 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Ex-premies don't use Abi
Message:
R2 wrote:

''You mean like ex-premies have used Abi?''

Ex-premies don't use Abi. She's a free agent. She posts what she wants to here of her own volition.

That didn't work. Try a better one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:50:21 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Bullshit
Message:
Anybody who believes that isa fool.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 22:25:43 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Not bullshit and here's why
Message:
If anything, Abi has used the ex-premie platforms to express her trauma about her abuse. She has nowhere else to go to express this.

I don't personally think the Jagdeo affair is a stick to beat Maharaji with. It's a PR disaster of his own making and all ex-premies have done is comment on his ineptitude. I don't see how you think ex-premies are using Abi. She is the one who has continually brought the subject up so that it can't be ignored. Also, it is only the victims who have claimed that Maharaji knew of the abuse and allowed it to continue. Most ex-premies have merely sympathised, that's all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:06:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I disagree, Dave
Message:
I do think that Jagdeo affair -- like those concerning all other initiators who were abusing or exploiting premies and premie children sexually -- is a stick to beat Maharaji with. It's just such a study in great, extreme contrasts. On the one hand, here's the supposed Lord of the Universe. We're supposed to trust him with every fibre of our being. And who's he supported by? None other than his Holy Men, saints, Mahatmas. We were like preemies and that was the set up.
So, the moment Maharaji knew that any one of these guys was doing what they were doing, he should have done something. What? Well, I don't know. It's not my fault that he pretended to be god flanked by all these great, realized souls. But he did that and he knew it was bullshit.

He knew, for example, that Trebinanand was capable of exploiting women sexually. He busted him for it, didn't he? So what's it say about him, Maharaji, that he deals with all hush-hush and then sends Trebinand back out on tour, again as a Holy Man, a tour on which Trebinanand rapes a girl in Regina, Saskatchewan? To me it says it all. And yes, it's a major stick to hit guru-ji over the head with; no apologies there. Again, the girl freaked out so bad -- aprently, thinking that she was married to Maharaji after the rape -- that she carved a sign in her forehead and was hospitalized.

Guess what? Here's the punchline: here sister is still a real gopi!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 10:08:54 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK that's it
Message:
I've archived all the relevant posts regarding the sexual abuse by Maharaji's henchmen and will put it on my site when I have time.

That is a stick to clip the Lord of the Universe around the ear with now and then. But Abi's abuse by Jagdeo? Maharaji has wriggled out of that one quite comfortably with his ''emotional meeting'' with Abi's Father. It's a festering sore but Maharaji has so far appeared blameless in most premies' eyes and the ridiculous law suit against Jagdeo has neutralised most premie revultion.

Rather than a stick to beat the Maha with, I think it's a protest banner which people hold up now and then. It has no effect on Maharaji's image in most premies' eyes but it does make new people wonder about him.

More importantly, Abi can protest as much as she wants about her abuse, which she will never forget and drag Maharaji's name through the mud as often as she feels like it.

I find it hard to understand how premies can still be Gopis. I mean, we were instructed to cry for the Lord's darshan once but that was when we saw him every few months. Some of these Gopis must be crying for 362 days of the year.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:02:45 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: singular and plural motives
Message:
R2......SCENARIO 1: a child gets run over by a drunk taxi driver. Driver escapes scene of accident leaving child to fend for herself.
Employer of driver finds out. Continues to employ driver.Years and years pass.

MOTIVES OF INTERESTED/SYMPATHETIC THIRD PARTIES:

1.FIRST AND FOREMOST...welfare of victim
2. Main culprit and accessory brought to book.

Surely that is simple enough to understand ? In or out of a cult , it's still simple yeah?

There is nothing wrong with multiple motives.

Comprehende ???????

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:25:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Took the words right out of my mouth, Dermot
Message:
Plural motives is right!

Maharaji compromised the safety of his premies. Instead of protecting them he exposed them to so-called saints who he knew were capable of sexual abuse. He knew about Jagdeo, but kept him circulating as a holy man in a culture that revered these guys. Same with Trebinand, same with Tejeshwaranand, maybe more. The finger most definitely points at Maharaji as a duplicitous coward in the circumstances. My support of Abi (or Susan or any of the other victims) is a mix of concern for them and concern about Maharaji. R2, or whatever his real name is, would be able to understand this if he weren't tied at the hip with his moronic cult leader.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:37:03 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A whitewash!
Message:
Plural motives is right!

Maharaji compromised the safety of his premies. Instead of protecting them he exposed them to so-called saints who he knew were capable of sexual abuse. He knew about Jagdeo, but kept him circulating as a holy man in a culture that revered these guys. Same with Trebinand, same with Tejeshwaranand, maybe more. The finger most definitely points at Maharaji as a duplicitous coward in the circumstances. My support of Abi (or Susan or any of the other victims) is a mix of concern for them and concern about Maharaji. R2, or whatever his real name is, would be able to understand this if he weren't tied at the hip with his moronic cult leader.


---

Jim, you are so full of shit I could throw up just getting this close to you. To think you are concerned about anybody but yourself is a joke. You've got an axe you've been grinding since before you even heard from Abi. Stop trying to recreate yourself as a caring person bud because we know better. Fuck, who are you kidding!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 03:54:38 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: R2
Subject: Your halo is slipping, R2-please read
Message:
Plural motives is right!

Maharaji compromised the safety of his premies. Instead of protecting them he exposed them to so-called saints who he knew were capable of sexual abuse. He knew about Jagdeo, but kept him circulating as a holy man in a culture that revered these guys. Same with Trebinand, same with Tejeshwaranand, maybe more. The finger most definitely points at Maharaji as a duplicitous coward in the circumstances. My support of Abi (or Susan or any of the other victims) is a mix of concern for them and concern about Maharaji. R2, or whatever his real name is, would be able to understand this if he weren't tied at the hip with his moronic cult leader.


---

Jim, you are so full of shit I could throw up just getting this close to you. To think you are concerned about anybody but yourself is a joke. You've got an axe you've been grinding since before you even heard from Abi. Stop trying to recreate yourself as a caring person bud because we know better. Fuck, who are you kidding!!!


---

R2: Do you have a printer? Children? Trusted friends..?

May I suggest you print out every post on this thread and show them to a few people - the more neutral the better. Ask for comments. You might find it interesting...

In four years on the forum I don't think I have ever witnessed such a bullish refusal to address a single serious point raised. Instead, as Joe mentions elsewhere, your powers of debate are seemingly restricted to impuning the motives of ex-premies. You are flailing wildly, R2. I doubt even Maharaji would want you on his side in an argument.

What you don't seem to realise is that facts speak for themselves. It matters little whether Jim or any other ex-premie is a caring person (I happen to believe they are - at least when it comes to caring about the truth being shared with those who deserve to hear it). Shouting 'bullshit' every time you don't like what you are reading doesn't make a thing bullshit.

At the very least go back and read Joe's original response to your first post on this thread. Then read it again. Maybe keep it in a draw somewhere for later, when you've calmed down a little (perhaps after your meditation). Look at your replies and ask yourself whether you remotely addressed the substance of his post. Ask yourself too, how other premies might view the subsequent exchange of opinions. Do you come across as caring person? And if so, caring about what?

If you cared about your own integrity - never mind that of maharaji - I would further suggest you read more attentively, think a bit more carefully and type a little less impulsively and compulsively.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:50:32 (EDT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: R2
Subject: 'answer'==accountability; admission of guilt
Message:
Joe

When I read your posts I get irritated. You ask for reason. You say you only want answers to the countless questions you and others have regarding what Maharaji has said and done. Then all would be well with the world; EPO would cease to have a reason to be; and the ex-premies could go on with their happy and productive lives.

Who are you trying to fool Joe? It has been expressed as recent as a week ago by certain ex-premies that their express goal in participating on these forums and EPO is to bring Maharaji down. Whether you expressly say this yourself is irrelevant because at best, you offer your tacit support for this goal through your support of EPO and the individuals who make no bones about these intentions. At worst you are sleazy and disingenuous in your posts, such as the one addressed to Pia?s son. Are you asking us to believe you are not part of this campaign to bring Maharaji down, and thus conclude you are an unwilling accomplice who is being used by these darker more militant ex-premies? That all you want are answers? Really??

You see, if your goals are in line with those of the ex-premies to bring Maharaji down, period, then your questions are not presented in order to get an answer. Instead they are weapons that are hurled at premies in the hopes of raising doubt in their minds so that if enough of disenchanted premies with doubts get behind this bombardment of questions, it will lead to Maharaji?s demise. True, there will be some who are not quite sure what value Maharaji and Knowledge still has in their own lives who will be affected by your strategy. But that?s their problem; I guarantee it is not Maharaji?s.

Another thing that is relevant Joe is you want answers to questions that take a lifetime of learning to discover. Take just the question of whether someone is divine. In order to answer that question, a person would first need to have an understanding of ?divine?. Now for me, it is through Knowledge that I have learned much about the nature of the divine. You said before you didn?t experience much through practicing the techniques so I?m not even sure there would be any reference point for Maharaji to give you an answer. Beside, if you sincerely have questions for somebody, demanding an answer in the way you guys are doing so is not the way to go. Besides, let?s get real Joe. Even if he did give you an answer, you wouldn?t be satisfied because you already have all your answers formulated.

So Joe, you are either an ex-premie?s patsy being used by the likes of Jim Heller and crew, or you are one slimy and dishonest ex-premie propagandist who feels they have a right to take a run at discrediting Pia?s son. What is it?

Richard


---

Let's drag Maharaji into court or something. Good.

What is 'bring him down'? Destoy him? As a person?

Or dismantle his ability to manipulate others?

That's too glib a shorthand: bring him down. 'Dismantle his mission'

is a bit closer, more accurate. 'To make sure he can't do to others

what he did to me.'
Answers are also accountability. Don't paint it as though answers
were (in this context) just /explanations/ -- answers, in this
case, involve restitution, and admission of guilt and wrongdoing.
Chris Hafey (And On Anand Ji)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:08:29 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: And On Anand Ji
Subject: R2 trying not to lose face
Message:
R2 has been setting a spin to intimidate Abi and victimize her over and over again. He wants to shame her becuase he has a lot to lose.

*His long sought postion in EV
*His opportunities to be close to Maha
*His income and career history (if Maha and EV get press/he loses credibility not just Maha. He'd have a difficult time explaining that
not only to his prospective employers (future) but to the family, friends, neighbours

R2 puts words into Abi's mouth that SHE is trying to bring down innocent premies (EV). Even though EV=M in responsibility and actions.

R2's latest tactic to repeat over and over again that WE exes are using ABI as a shield (see, this makes him look caring, when in fact he has not been caring but has been extremely abusive towards and careless and insulting and worst of UGLY in the most inhumane way towards her.

THEN, he has the nerve to tell her that unless she stops trying to hurt MAHA and the good well-intended folks at EV that THEY (not he) but THEY will lose respect and support for her.

I have been one of the strongest opponents of this henious fuck who calls himself Richard II from his first post. I saw through him and my BS detector exploded. He thinks he can stifle me with his insults.

So, my mission is OUT him, and have he personally served papers for harrassment. End of story.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:41:29 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Whatever
Message:
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why don't you run along Deb and let us grown-ups talk.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:57:05 (EDT)
From: pan ji
Email: a0aji@nite-cap.org
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: R2 trying not to lose face
Message:
I hear you.

I'm not going to comment further, however. I'm working on my
new Farmer's Schedule; I want to be up at four! So I should be
getting to bed real soon now.

I want one of those silk night caps. I saw one the other night
in a summer-stock production of Peter Pan.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 15:15:08 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Richard, that's just mean
Message:
When I read your posts I get irritated.

Sorry about that R2, perhaps you shouldn't read them.

You say you only want answers to the countless questions you and others have regarding what Maharaji has said and done. Then all would be well with the world; EPO would cease to have a reason to be; and the ex-premies could go on with their happy and productive lives.

Excuse me, but I didn't say this. This is YOUR characterization of what I said. What I actually said was that ex-premies have legitimate questions about Maharaji's personal responsiblity for what he did in the past, and his addressing those questions would go a long way to answer those concerns. I said if Maharaji did that, there might be no need for Pia's website, because Maharaji could himself address the issues and Pia's son wouldn't need to. I have no control over what happens to EPO, but since there is a steady stream of people leaving the Maharaji cult, there will continue to be a need for information, and talking to others who have left, just to get support. So, I don't believe EPO would go away, and I have never suggested that.

It has been expressed as recent as a week ago by certain ex-premies that their express goal in participating on these forums and EPO is to bring Maharaji down.

Much as you would like to suggest otherwise, ex-premies are not a monolithic group. They are as diverse as any group, and the only thing they have in common is they used to belong to a cult and they don't anymore. Period. Any other suggestion of what 'ex-premies' are like, or what they want, comes right out of your imagination and not from reality. I know you want more than anything to paint ex-premies as all part of a hate group, with one, agreed-upon goal, but the dog just won't eat that, R2. It's just not believable, and I think if you just made the effort to see ex-premies as individuals, you might understand that.

As for 'bringing Maharaji down,' I don't even know what that means. As far as I can tell, he has brought himself down, and exists as a fabulously wealthy, charalatan master, with a few thousand ex-hippies from the 70s as his followers in the west. He has come way, way, down from his lofty goals in the 70s, before I ever started reading or writing about him on the internet.

And I don't see why you are so concerned about this supposed power ex-premies have to destroy your master. We are just people talking about him, and our experiences following him, and what we think about all that. True, there is anger expressed, but that's only natural and quite understandable. I know you don't like a lot of the comments, but if it's just open discussion about Maharji that terrifies you (and him), maybe you ought to think about that a little. Is he really that fragile? He is, as I mentioned to Thomas, flush with resources and can correct any misstatements any of us make. But he doesn't, does he? Why? Is it because what we are saying is true?

And so, I'll ask you, R2, what, on the EPO website is incorrect? What of anything I have ever said here is false information? Unlike on the Maharaji cult sites, which are completely censored and controlled, you can actually express your opinion and disagree here. But why do you have to come to an ex-premie site to do that? Why can't you do that on Maharaji's website? And why do both Elan Vital and Maharaji LIE on their websites? Why doesn't that bother you as much as what gets said here? Don't you have a blazing double standard there?

I really do believe that answers from Maharaji would really help. Answers regarding sexual molestation in the cult, answers about his personal behavior, answers about what the 'devotion and surrender' stuff was all about, back when I was living in his ashram and believed what he told me about being the 'superior power in person.' Yes, I take it very personally what he did to me, because it inovolves me personally. But if saying that causes Maharaji to be 'brought down,' that is not my problem, it's his. I have every right to ask these questions, and frankly, the fact that it upsets you, Maharaji and Elan Vital so much, are good indications that we are asking the right questions and getting to the meat of the matter. So, thanks for the feedback.

Instead they are weapons that are hurled at premies in the hopes of raising doubt in their minds so that if enough of disenchanted premies with doubts get behind this bombardment of questions, it will lead to Maharaji’s demise. True, there will be some who are not quite sure what value Maharaji and Knowledge still has in their own lives who will be affected by your strategy. But that’s their problem; I guarantee it is not Maharaji’s.

If premies become 'disenchanted,' simply from people talking about Maharaji and providing information, then how 'real' was their involvement in the first place? Look, if what Maharaji offers is real and true, it can withstand objective analysis. It can and should be able to withstand debate. And I believe very strongly in the proposition that open discussion and information back and forth are very good things. I am a very strong believer in that. So, I think it's better that people be exposed to both sides of the story. If they still want to follow Maharaji, that's their choice. But I think, both premies and aspirants, should know about Maharaji's past, and the fact that there are lots of people who used to follow him who think he's not worth following. That's what a free and open society allows, and thank god we have it.

And I do feel better with the knowledge that just talking about all this seems to help some people move on from Maharaji. Others, like you, don't want to move on, and that's your choice and your right.

Another thing that is relevant Joe is you want answers to questions that take a lifetime of learning to discover. Take just the question of whether someone is divine. In order to answer that question, a person would first need to have an understanding of “divine”. Now for me, it is through Knowledge that I have learned much about the nature of the divine.

I'm sorry R2, but this sounds a lot like sophistry for me. I work in a profession in which I am often making arguments as an advocate. One of the ways that people sometimes try to undermine an argument is to try to redefine the terms, or say they aren't sure what they mean. That's what this sounds like to me. 'Divine' is divine. It means divinity, it means someone claims to be, in Maharaji's case, the incarnation of God, which he clearly did, and now he blantanly lies about it. Now he claims he never did it, and that's a lie. Now, you try to say that 'divine' doesn't mean what I thought it did or whatever, but that sounds suspiciously like rationalization to me. You can believe what you like, but words have meaning to me, and I'm very loathe to let people redefine them. And it wasn't just the words. Maharaji's ACTIONS were at least as culpable. Remember he sat on thrones, wore crowns, had us kiss his feet, allowed people to prostrate before him, etc., etc., far beyond just the word 'divine,' 'superior power in person' , arti, etc. And plus, I was a gullible kid when I got involved. Way to gullible it turns out.

And it's just such nonsense to suggest that Maharaji has no obligation to answer questions because we might not accept the answers. Since when does taking responsbility or apologizing hinge on whether people will accept tthe apology? That's nonsense. You don't ask a question and promise in advance to accept the answer no matter what it is. God, that's nuts.

I won't dignify that last paragraph with an answer, just to say it's offensive and disgusting. I am not a 'patsy' of Jim Heller or anyone, what did I say that was 'dishonest' and as for 'slimy,' well who the hell do you think you are, and fuck you.

Look, R2, I'm sure you love Maharaji, and at least think you do, and as a result you want to protect him in whatever way possible. I remember the feeling. But you aren't coming from a rational place about that, you're coming from an emotional one, and most of us won't buy that, because we don't feel that emotion anymore. It doesn't cloud the way we think about Maharaji anymore.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:28:13 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hardly Joe
Message:
Nothing mean about it Joe. You claimed a degree of innocence in only wanting answers to some of your questions, and then everything would okay. I don’t think that is what you want at all.

What I actually said was that ex-premies have legitimate questions about Maharaji's personal responsiblity for what he did in the past, and his addressing those questions would go a long way to answer those concerns.

Okay let’s go to the archives. Here’s what you REALLY said Joe:

One of the things many of them would like is answers to some basic questions about why Maharaji did what he did in the past, especially in connection with claiming to be divine, asking that we devote our lives to him, and the like, when those things involved us personally. Maharaji has been unwilling to provide those explanations to date.

So we’ve established now that one of the legitimate questions you have is why he said he was divine. And here’s my response from my last post:

Another thing that is relevant Joe is you want answers to questions that take a lifetime of learning to discover. Take just the question of whether someone is divine. In order to answer that question, a person would first need to have an understanding of “divine”. Now for me, it is through Knowledge that I have learned much about the nature of the divine. .

And you DID say that if he did answer such questions you would…..well, I’ll use your words:

I think you would also find that if Maharaji did that, much of the criticism would subside and there would be no need for your late mother's website.

So I hate to be nit-picky Joe but what I said you said, you actually did say. So stop playing hide the cannelloni with me, please.

Much as you would like to suggest otherwise, ex-premies are not a monolithic group. They are as diverse as any group, and the only thing they have in common is they used to belong to a cult and they don't anymore.

Clearly! As witnessed by the wrangling that goes on within your ranks. But certain cells within ex-premiedom are indeed as monolithic a group as the Afghan Taliban. I’m pretty certain the color of your stripes Joe, but even if I’m wrong about that, your support for the goal to bring Maharaji down as expressed by some is at best tacit, and at worse obvious. Either way you are a major contributor to the ex-premie spin being put on the facts. And the answers you give show no signs of having innocent questions.

As for 'bringing Maharaji down,' I don't even know what that means. As far as I can tell, he has brought himself down, and exists as a fabulously wealthy, charalatan master, with a few thousand ex-hippies from the 70s as his followers in the west. He has come way, way, down from his lofty goals in the 70s, before I ever started reading or writing about him on the internet.

Here’s what I’m talking about Joe. The picture of honest and virtuous inquiry…….NOT. You can’t even talk about Maharaji without pumping out your canned propaganda.

If premies become 'disenchanted,' simply from people talking about Maharaji and providing information, then how 'real' was their involvement in the first place?

My point exactly. If they go, they go. The ones who’s experience of Knowledge is based in reality can see how confused even the line of questioning is. But do go on -– and so will I.

Now, you try to say that 'divine' doesn't mean what I thought it did or whatever, but that sounds suspiciously like rationalization to me. You can believe what you like, but words have meaning to me, and I'm very loathe to let people redefine them.

Proves my point Joe. The word “divine”. Can an intellectual definition convey its meaning to one who has no experience of it? Of course it can’t. For you to be given an explanation of someone’s, or even your own, relationship to the divine would be a total waste of time. The reality of the nature of divinity is COMPLETELY different than whatever intellectual definition you have in your head. I can say that with certainty. I’m not trying to change the definition of the word, I’m merely pointing out the impotence of having one.

And it's just such nonsense to suggest that Maharaji has no obligation to answer questions because we might not accept the answers. Since when does taking responsbility or apologizing hinge on whether people will accept tthe apology? That's nonsense. You don't ask a question and promise in advance to accept the answer no matter what it is. God, that's nuts.

I wasn’t suggesting this for a second. I implied you were not really looking for answers so why should he bother. As for apologies, in many cases there is not a consensus out there for a need. For example regarding the ashrams closing, I personally have no problems with the way it was done and no regrets. It’s like a valuable gift being given to many people. Some people see the value and some don’t. IMO it is not incumbent upon the giver to apologize to the people like yourself who were blind to its value. With respect to his personal life, that’s none of anybody’s business. If some of the premie public are disillusioned hearing gossip about what may or may not have happened behind the scenes, that’s really doesn’t warrant an apology to any of them. Sorry.

I won't dignify that last paragraph with an answer, just to say it's offensive and disgusting. I am not a 'patsy' of Jim Heller or anyone, what did I say that was 'dishonest' and as for 'slimy,' well who the hell do you think you are, and fuck you.

Joe, your claim to innocence, by virtue of your intentions, make you dishonest. To claim you are just presenting the other side is disingenuous. As I said, at worst you are a part of what is clearly an organized campaign to publish a version of the facts that are extremely negative, with the expressed purpose of bringing about Maharaji’s demise. If you claim otherwise, all I can say is you walk arm in arm with people who have said this, and even worse. And to claim you only want answers is totally bogus. You have no inclination to have your questions answered because you’ve answered them all yourselves.

Look, R2, I'm sure you love Maharaji, and at least think you do, and as a result you want to protect him in whatever way possible. I remember the feeling. But you aren't coming from a rational place about that, you're coming from an emotional one, and most of us won't buy that, because we don't feel that emotion anymore. It doesn't cloud the way we think about Maharaji anymore.

No Joe there’s nothing emotional about the place I’m coming from. My relationship to Maharaji is through an experience gained through practicing Knowledge, not emotion. I can see from what you’ve said in the past that you would have no idea about THAT feeling.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:33:32 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Averagely written religious cult bullshit, R2 NT
Message:
ZZZ
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 18:14:45 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Well now you resort to lying
Message:
There is no talking to you R2. I have zero respect for your comments because you just lie when it's convenient and that's not acceptable. So get lost.

You alleged refuting is such bullshit. YOU said I said that if Maharaji stopped being such a repulsive liar and answered questions there wouldn't be and EPO, I said you were wrong, that I said there wouldn't be a need for Pia's website and you quote what I said, which is just that. So get fucked, you jerk and stop being such a fucking liar if you expect to have anyone take you seriously.

It's so sad, Richard, becasuse you continually fail to respond to even one of the questions and comments raised about Maharaji, completely fail to answer anything factually, just like Pia's website, and all you can do is impune the motives of people you don't even know. It's very sad. Small and sad.

And as far as organizaed campaigns, are you also a big believer in conspiracy theories? You can also lay your 'divine' crap on somebody more gullible than me.

As for my 'propaganda' about Maharaji, again you fall on your face unable to counter the facts. Maharaji has many thousands fewer followers in the West than he had 20 years ago. That's a fact. He's gone 'down' quite a bit already, reflected in his dwindling number of followers. What is innacurate about that?

The other fact is that Maharaji is a liar. You also don't address that. He claimed to be the incarnation of God and now denies it. So, he's a liar.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:06:28 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I have not lied in any way Joe
Message:
There is no talking to you R2. I have zero respect for your comments because you just lie when it's convenient and that's not acceptable. So get lost.

You alleged refuting is such bullshit. YOU said I said that if Maharaji stopped being such a repulsive liar and answered questions there wouldn't be and EPO, I said you were wrong, that I said there wouldn't be a need for Pia's website and you quote what I said, which is just that. So get fucked, you jerk and stop being such a fucking liar if you expect to have anyone take you seriously.

It's so sad, Richard, becasuse you continually fail to respond to even one of the questions and comments raised about Maharaji, completely fail to answer anything factually, just like Pia's website, and all you can do is impune the motives of people you don't even know. It's very sad. Small and sad.

And as far as organizaed campaigns, are you also a big believer in conspiracy theories? You can also lay your 'divine' crap on somebody more gullible than me.

As for my 'propaganda' about Maharaji, again you fall on your face unable to counter the facts. Maharaji has many thousands fewer followers in the West than he had 20 years ago. That's a fact. He's gone 'down' quite a bit already, reflected in his dwindling number of followers. What is innacurate about that?

The other fact is that Maharaji is a liar. You also don't address that. He claimed to be the incarnation of God and now denies it. So, he's a liar.


---

Joe get a grip on yourself and calm down. You’re not making sense. I made a point of quoting you in my post so there was no question about who said what. I think it is clear I’m haven’t lied. As for the rest of your tirade, I don’t know where to start. I fail to answer your dumb questions when so many others have tried; the numbers of premies going down somehow as an indicator of who’s telling the truth; your contention that Maharaji lied about being the incarnation of God, whatever the fuck that is. You present a potpourri of perplexity here Joe.

As I said before, you win the prize of the millenium for the person who misunderstood the most what the Master was talking about. And as I will say again, any claim you have of merely wanting to get answers is pure crap. You’re in it for the blood my friend so stop playing the innocent.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 20:42:50 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: A potpourri of perplexity
Message:
So set us straight if you would; explain in plain English who is this man Rawat, & why have so many misunderstood what the master is talking about?

You say in your post to Joe : 'the incarnation of god....whatever the fuck that is'.

As you seem to be a man who is in tune with what the master is all about at the moment I think you should tell all.

I mean I used to go up to total strangers & tell them that they could experience God within themselves because at the time I believed that Rawat was the Satguru & he'd to me to do that.

What is the evolved Rawat all about?

You hint that you might know the answer. Do tell, don't be shy, shout it from the rooftops. Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 19:14:08 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: what 'Master'?? Person don't you mean?
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 06:20:44 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Spitting on Roses.
Message:
Hi Joe,

I wrote several letters to Pia before she died. Some were personal, and some were about her website.

The site goes on about 'lies' but doesn't say what any of the lies are. It's intellectualy bankrupt and will impress nobody but fellow cult members, with 'no room for doubt in their minds'.

Tomas is pissing into the wind if he thinks keeping this site going will in any way preserve the memory of his mother. The site leaves you with the impression that Pia was a bit of an idiot, which she wasn't.

If Tomas wants to preserve Pia's memory on the Internet, he would be much better creating a site which is an accurate memorial to her. One that reflects the intelligent, loving, creative, imaginative, caring person that she was. One that her friends and relatives who aren't in a cult would be happy to look at too.

And if someone convinces you that you are looking at a beautiful flower, and takes advantage of you because of this. Then you discover that the flower is plastic, you shouldn't spit on it, you should piss on it. Then you should burn it, so nobody else will get fooled.

Anth the origami arsonist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:28:14 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: My email to Thomas, Pia's son
Message:
Very well put Joe, the premies always shy away from answering the specific accusations, if that is the word. Cult view is very narrow and defensive which speaks volumes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:35:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Here's his answer
Message:
[no text]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 16:15:43 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Help?(ot)
Message:
can any of the computer proffesionals tell me...If your posting on a forum, and you are running a fire wall, and you don't put down an e mail address, can anyone find out where you live from a post? Thank you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 09:13:17 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Help?(ot)
Message:
yes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 23:15:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Internet Security on CNET
Message:
Here's an article that might be a good read on protecting your identity on the Internet. With the caveats in mind expressed by a0aji and anon, of course.

Francesca
[ Internet Security article ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:29:15 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Internet Security on CNET
Message:
It's a good article.

The problem is (and you really have to read Ken Thompson on this):

www.acm.org/classics/sep95/

is that you didn't write the program you're using yourself, and
you do not know all the motives of all the programmers who did.

There is no privacy on the Internet. Marshall MacLuhan predicted
this; and it has come to pass: we traded privacy for convenience.
And it's getting worse, every day!

I am not especially paranoid, but the more I learn about the
number of ways information can be gathered on my activities,
the more I adapt the attitude that every last thing I'm doing
with my computer is public information. I'm of that mindset.
I would *still* pale if some things I've written were shown
to some people; I do rely on common sense ideas about privacy.

But some common sense things are wrong when it comes to computers.
For example, a slew of information about a person's quantifiable,
commercial habits are gathered from their signals, every time they
dial up their Internet connection. I don't really know the value
of added-on services that purport to sheild you from the consequences
of this data-mining; but I do know that there are several active
campaigns going on right now, to recruit 100 percent of all ISP
dialups into one data-mining operation or another -- and they are
winning. If your ISP won't give you assurances your information is
not being gathered, then chances are very good that it is.

Given time, resources, and talent, and /motive/ -- your stem
will be compromised, if it is connected to the Internet (even
part-time connected). If you want to be sure nothing you've
ever typed into your computer makes its way out to someone
hostile, never connect your computer to the Internet. That's
why, when Tom Cruis -- in Mission Impossible -- has to break
into that special room, it isn't a joke (entirely, anyway).
The purpose of that room is to acknowledge that the information
on that computer was so sensitive, it was to *never* be
connected to a network of any kind. The only way to get
information out of it is to enter that room, in person, and
use the console to do it.

Wires run to your house. The telephone company absolutely has
to know which wires are yours -- that is the only way they
can route telephone calls to you. So, if you are using any
sort of conventional wired network, you can be identified,
given talent, motive, opportunity etc -- based on *where* you
are calling from. This is similarly true of cable modems;
the cable modem in your house has an exact network address.

It is a basic problem with networked systems where anonymous
entry into the network is desired, as it would be if you were
truly afraid of having your location traced.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 11:47:00 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Thanks again for your comments ...
Message:
a0aji and glad to have you aboard. I read your other comments below about ideas for password protected forums. I'd be willing to be one of the contributors, but I wouldn't be any help other than that. I know of a bulletin board where they had a lot of trouble with anonymous trolls with fake e-mail addresses, and nothing's perfect (as you pointed out below, they can just sign up again under another name and e-mail address if they get the boot) but getting passwords has cut down on the problems. Everyone can lurk, but only those with passwords can post on this particular board, but there are no discussion categories and each post just gets added on top of the others, so people have to scroll through everything.

I'm getting to be fine with whatever anyone wants to do -- the ideas you and Jim are kicking around, this Forum, recentexes, whatever. I'm glad there are people willing to dedicate the time and expertise to make this Forum and the EPO website happen.

Bests, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:40:37 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: *cough* not a newcomer *cough* [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 16:55:37 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: should be 'back posting again' or something! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 17:13:02 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: should be 'back posting again' or something!
Message:
I don't know; it's been something like two or three years I think.
Less than a year after EPO first came online.

I can't stand this type of webbed board; you have to visit every
damned link to mark it as 'read' or 'seen' (changes the color
of the hyperlink in Mozilla/Netscape browser). So I generally
don't spend much time on any EPO forum -- much too time-consuming
to work with such primitive conferencing tools.

People were very resistant to my suggestions for better
conferencing tools in times past. I bring it up at least
once, each time I surface. Apparently something happened
over the spring or summer, and now people are listening
more carefully than before.

I don't stick around very long; I don't have the time to
fool around with reading every message -- and it is too
difficult to keep track, otherwise, to participate in any
of the conversations at all. If the tools don't get fixed,
I can't stay, because I have better things to waste my
time on than a broken teleconferencing engine!

I'm not guessing, or hoping, there are better conferencing
tools out there. I've been working with better tools for
many years, and I know how much of a difference they make.
They save time -- loads of time -- and they facilitate
communication to such a degree that the entire tenor of
a conversation changes, just for using them. People can
save their annoyance for other people, instead of wasting
it on their conferencing tools! ;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 23:58:46 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Well I appreciate your input
Message:
a0aji

Appreciate your input. People are listening because we had a blowup on FV, changing of the guard, Sir Dave was kind enough to host this forum. But Sir Dave is not attached, if something else emerges and is more popular, less work (and quids) for him, I suppose.

But we are not a cult, so less organization and many conflicting ideas about everything but ratty-ji. Liberation begins ....

Bests, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 18, 2001 at 10:10:37 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Well I appreciate your input
Message:
There's no argument that beyond a certain amount, an organization
preys upon itself. The alternative is a benevolent dictatorship,
as it were -- a system run by one person. A lot of times, those
systems do quite well.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:48:51 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: you're welcome [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:19:12 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Not a professional, but (ot)
Message:
Sir Dave can correct me if I'm wrong, but usually a Forum Administrator can only see the IP (Internet Protocol) address a post came from. (Such as 000.123.221.002) It's just a bunch of numbers. The Forum Administrator would then have to do a whois search to see which ISP (Internet Service Provider) was assigned to that IP address. Then the FA would have to go to the ISP to get the identity of the person making the post. Without having a very good reason, for legal liability concerns on the part of the ISP, the ISP is not going to give out the indentity of one of their customers to just anyone who asks.

In addition to that, most people do not have 'fixed' IP addresses and are assigned one by their ISP each time they log on the internet. Each ISP has a certain number of IP addresses available depending upon the size of the ISP and the number of subscribers so it may take a little research in the ISP's logs to figure out who was on and using that IP address at any given point in time.

Without a subpena, most ISPs are in the business of signing up customers, not giving up their identies to every Tom, Dick and Harry. Hope this helps ease your fears.

So yes, you can be tracked. Will you be tracked? Unless you're doing something illegal, not bloody likely. This is based on US laws and US cases though. Canada may be similar, but living here, I don't follow it.

Maybe the experts will chime in here.

Bests, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:34:06 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Not a professional, but (ot)
Message:
If you attract any attention to yourself, and someone wants you,
you can be had.

Your machine has a unique digital signature that shows up in different
ways, as you make use of the Internet (it isn't any one thing). For
instance, the cookies in your browser's directory. Someone wanting
you badly enough could scan for those cookies (by evesdropping).

Cross-referencing the IP addresses as you post (or only read!) messages here is enough information to give the attacker the means
to keep a watch out for you. From there, it is only a matter of
time. If you sent your real name and address via e-mail, to
anyone, ever, it is possible someone made a record of that
transmission, long before you became a target for surveillance.

Everything at the right price -- a courtesy, a favor. The records
do exist.

You can keep your information secret, to some extent, but you
cannot hide your location, nor the location of any site you visit,
from prying eyes that want you badly enough.

There's no privacy on the Internet. Bet on that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:43:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Thanks a0aji! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:02:32 (EDT)
From: anon
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Help?(ot)
Message:
There is no privacy on the Internet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 15:13:03 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay?
Message:
I think this is a big question. Some of us remained premies for many years, and some people still are in the cult. As we know, you can be pretty attached to the cult, defending both it and the cult leader voraciously. Why?

One theory is that people are feeling distressed before they get involved in the cult, and the cult provides some relief from the distress. The fear among cult members is if they abandon the cult, the distress will come back.

I found an interesting presentation on the internet about cults, and why people get into them and why they stay which supports this 'relief from distress' theory. The Maharaji cult was one of the groups mentioned and studied.

First, what is the research on why people got involved in the first place? It seems to support the 'distress' theory.

A study by Ullman in 1982, found that recent joiners of cults had more childhood trauma, unhappier adolescence and more stress in the 2 years before joining than the control group. Also, the study found that most converts were young, with adolescence being the most difficult period regarding identity in most peoples' lives.

Studies by Adorno, Frenkel-Brunswick and Rokeach found that cult members scored much higher than control groups for authoritarianism and dogmatism. [Surprise, suprise.]

Galanter in 1989 found that cult converts remembered having symptoms high on the 'Psychological Distress Scale' right before joining, although he had no control group.

Galanter is interesting because he specifically studied premies (119 of them in the late 70s.) His theory as to why people stayed involved in the cult is called 'Relief and Group Process.' It's the following process, which I think has a lot of truth in it:

1. When a person gets into the cult they get a sense of relief from personal distress;

2. The more relief one feels, the stronger their attachment to the group and the leader;

3. The 'feeling of peace' depends on the frequency, qualtiy and intimacy of contact with the group;

4. Galanter predicts that the closer the ties to the group, the more relief one feels from neurotic distress;

5. The 'relief' comes from the belief that the cult is the only path to truth, the only source of relief, so one can give up looking, with a strong resulting feeling of relief. [Personally, I think this is THE KEY point, and the main reason Maharaji, despite his supposed new, liberal views, will never suggest there is any other valid path to happiness.]

6. Galanter found that at Unification Church workshops, those experiencing the most distress were the most likely to join, presumably because they were in the most need of 'relief' from the distress.

7. Glanter found among premies, that for people who had been members of Divine Light Mission (now Elan Vital) for two years, they had stronger feelings of cohesiveness and they felt less nervous and tense.

I think this supports the idea that people who didn't experience all that much 'relief' tended to leave, and those who did, and those who had the most frequent, intimate contact with the group, were the ones who stayed in the cult. I think that's why the bulk of Maharaji's followers in the West, are aging premies from the 70s, when the 'One true path' idea was emphasized, when there was a lot more frequent intimate contact with the group happening,
nightly satsang, communities, etc.

This doesn't bode well for people who receive knowledge nowadays hanging around the cult.

Interesting, no?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 03:10:24 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay?
Message:
I wish more people were replying to this. At this point in my 'journey' I am asking myself that and I suppose I can feel the pull to belong (again?) which makes me look for people with similarities.
At the time i took K I was 21 experiencing a late adolescence and would not have said I was in distress at all. 'Having an exciting, learning individual growthful experience of life' is about how I saw it then. Looking from my current perspective I was in such chaos, no security, I had left good friends behind for fascinating strangers I think I was in deep distress.
A few weeks before I went to 'Satsang' I had seen a poster promising world peace and found it a bit wierd and creepy. Next thing I know i am in a room in london with an adorable bald and smiley 'mahatma' who tells me how to meditate and gives me a picture of a little boy (which i find embarrassing)
A few weeks later i am in an ashram convinced I am the lucky one and everyone else is wrong, feeling incredibly secure and as if I belong and will now be safe.
I stayed in more or less this intensity for about 8 years in spite leaving the ashram to marry (1975 ever the follower) In 1980 stopped practising regularly but still went to see M whenever i could still went to other programs and did meditation when I had time.Still had mostly premies for friends and felt that 'belonging'.From then until the last month I have been slowly rejoining the world. I had a cross section of friends and many aquaintances who didn't even know i was a premie ( shame perhaps?)I no longer expected peace in the world or thought M and k to be the only way. But I loved to see him and yes i think I still felt special even though I probably might not have seen it that way at the time. ( I think it is so easy to self delude and sooo hard to be honest even if I want to )
Anyway to get back to the question why did i stay.
1) I think I was in distress even though i didn't recognise it at the time
2) I got a great sense of relief from the feeling that i was home that i belonged and that i was a chosen one
3) I love 'devotion' I know not every premie is into this but for me it was always the main thing and really this site has shattered that for me. It seemed I was able to be unquestioning about so much so long as I was able to believe M was a good enough person to be in love with. Oh my Gawd!
Anyway thanks for that question ...Helping me unravel.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 22:25:40 (EDT)
From: Deena
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay?
Message:
Yeah, bliss was why I stayed and I was addicted to the obsession of not feeling anything else...which is not natural and very unhealthy as a result. In my case distress is definately what I experienced prior to the cult and devoting myself to M. And the distress I began to experience as a result of spending more and more time meditating and watching videos etc. lead me to get out. But the peace you described, of not having to look anymore, that made life so simple and ...I've seen it in reborn Christians too. I agree with your take on it. I believe we are hard wired to follow, to survive...like some other primates.

If you've watched the TV show Voyager there is a character named 7 of 9 who makes me chuckle...she left the Collective and struggles to be an indivdual. As wonderful as the freedom is to not be involved with M anymore I still experience anxiety adapting to life without attributing every leaf moving because of my master. So many years of this belief system is crippling...I imagine it will take years yet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 23:28:31 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay?
Message:
Hi, Deena,

It seems to me that some people had fewer reservations than others. Why did you proceed with such total abandon? I saw this in many premies. They were so absolutely certain that Maharaji was the Lord Of The Universe. I figured that was because of their experience in meditation, or by listening to satsang and doing service, or a combination of the three. But listening to you and Joe, it seems that something else was going on.

You were both distressed by meditation and satsang. So what was it that made you so sure, that freed you from your distress? Personally, I don't get it. Is it just a matter of some being more gullible than others? If you weren't having the 'experience', which I can only assume you weren't because of what you said about being distressed by meditation and videos, what drove you? For me, it was largely the hope that with persistence, my eyes would be openned and I'd see what every other stargazed premie saw. But until then, I was going to proceed with caution. But you and Joe just seem to have jumped right in without really having any good reason to.

What was the source of your bliss? Was it just Maharaji, himself, and the faith you had in him? Was it because you felt you were a part of something that saved you from being alone? I don't understand. For me, it was all about having that 'experience', of merging with the divine and becoming enlightened. And as far as I was concerned, that could only happen within from SS&M. There was no other way, meditation being the most important of the three. But I had reservations, because no matter how hard I tried to apply myself, I saw no ice breaking; I saw myself on the outside looking in. It was a horrible, painful existence being a premie for me. I hated it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 12:45:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Good questions
Message:
Jerry,

What you are asking is very interesting and I think gets to the crux of the issue. Like Peg said, figuring out what it was the initiatlly got us involved, and also got us to stay is really helpful in getting free from it all.

Mi>You were both distressed by meditation and satsang. So what was it that made you so sure, that freed you from your distress? Personally, I don't get it. Is it just a matter of some being more gullible than others? If you weren't having the 'experience', which I can only assume you weren't because of what you said about being distressed by meditation and videos, what drove you?

Well, first, I would say 'distress' of wasn't just of the meditation, it was of the whole cult and how suffocating it was. And the 'distress' grew with time. In the beginning, it was kind of novel, but as time went on, it was clear it wasn't working, and we were programmed to blame ourselves for that. Very stressful, and, I think, cumulative.

And what is 'the experience' we were supposed to be having? Were we supposed to be happy all the time? Carefree and blissed out? 'The experience' is a meaningless term, something Maharaji uses as a kind of code word that can mean almost anything, and allows people to fantasize about what it might be. For me, 'the experience' I had that made me blissed out at first had absolutely nothing to do with meditation. I did the meditation as part of the whole regime that I believed saved me, that gave me the relief not to have to look for the purpose of life anymore, and to have a prescribed recipe for a meaningful life, with Maharaji handling all the complicated details and I no longer had to.

For me, it was largely the hope that with persistence, my eyes would be openned and I'd see what every other stargazed premie saw. But until then, I was going to proceed with caution. But you and Joe just seem to have jumped right in without really having any good reason to.

You were right to be skeptical, and on some level I was too, but there are a couple of reasons for 'jumping in.'

First, Maharaji preached, and I was predisposed to this based on my Catholic background, that it really was an all or nothing thing. If you think it's real, you go for it. And unless you do, unless you make effort to practice, surrender completely, give up the world and devote 100%, you really wouldn't get the whole experience. It was a real bait and switch. At first, it was 'try it you'll like it,' and once in, it bacame, 'make effort and surrender and devote' with all your being, because if you hold back, you are missing out.

Also, I think some of this is based on personality types. I am the type of person (or at least I used to be until I learned some hard lessons), who tended to probably rate high on the dogmatism and authoritarian scales, at least when it came to myself. So, if I really believed in something, I tended to dive in and ask questions later, and I definitely did that with Maharaji, but then he encouraged that as well.

What was the source of your bliss? Was it just Maharaji, himself, and the faith you had in him? Was it because you felt you were a part of something that saved you from being alone? I don't understand. The source of my bliss wasn't Maharaji, because I was never really attracted to him, how he talked, or anything like that, which was a source of a lot of pain for me. That was the thing I was always praying would hit me, love for Maharaji, because lots of premies said they had it, and I knew I didn't. It wasn't the practice either, but they both, Maharaji and the practice, are related.

I was blissed out because I believed I had received the one true gift, the purpose of life, and the only source of true happiness. I felt really lucky and privileged. So, the existence of Maharaji and doing the practice reinforced that, because it gave me comfort that I was doing the right thing following him and doing what he said.

And I think the bliss also came from a belief that we were saving the world, or rather that Maharaji was and we got to be a part of it. Also, like I said, since I did jump in head first, I abandoned my life and all the problems I had with that. I cut every tie to everything and started a clean slate. You get a real high from doing that, and it's easier and more fun if a bunch of other people around you are doing the same thing. So that got me blissed out, too.

I would say the height of my bliss was for about the year after I received knowledge. It was downhill from there.

I can completely relate to the feeling of every other premie having the true experience but not me. I felt that a lot after about the first year.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 08:32:33 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult: Why did we stay?
Message:
As a young teen I read the books of Vivekananda. At the time I found the whole story in it perfectly clear. I completely adopted the whole thing as the truth and nothing ..bla bla... One problem: it was not accessable. When I finally literally bumped into a lanternpost with a poster of rawat and 4 FREE meditation techniques the practicality of the thing made me decide to go for it. I had always reservations, and HOPES. I hoped that I found the true master( because vivekananda said that when the student is ready, the Master will be there).
I am an optimistic person so I went with the HOPE...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:20:18 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Relief and painkillers
Message:
Your point 5 rings a bell with me, although as a explanation for what is essentially the religious instinct, the theory is superficial.

I had a brief period in my rackety life 20 odd yrs ago when I hung out for a couple of months with some junkies.
I got turned on to quite a lot of smack at that time but it never did much for me. I concluded that the reason was I wasn't in pain.

I wasn't in pain because I had big K.
I was in pain because I was spacing out instead of being at the L.feet, but that pain was a different pain.

It's all terribly complicated. I don't think anyone will ever come up with a deterministic explanation as to why people believe what they believe.

My beef with Rawat has nothing to do with whether or not there is a God; nothing to do with the benefits of meditation or not, nor the mechanics of belonging to a group of like minded people.

My beef with the guy is that he's a liar.

I'd be interested in a theory that explained why there was distress in the 1st place which needed relieving : but then we're back to the big picture.....enter stage left the Lotu.

Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:18:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No relief
Message:
Sorry, Joe, the last thing Maharaji provided me was relief from distress. If anything, he increased it. I did, after all, believe he had a special arrangement with the Almighty. I didn't want to be one of those who missed out on paradise. I was both attracted to and repulsed by Maharaji. On the one hand, he was this strange guru character who had people bowing before him singing his praises, glorifying him as God. I was turned off from that. On the other hand, I was afraid if I didn't receive Knowledge and serve him, I'd miss out on my one chance for salvation. It was a quandary. I was being pushed and pulled, and this lasted for a long, long time. It provided no relief, at all. This theory of relief from distress might be true for others but not for me. The distress of being left out if I didn't follow Maharaji is what drove me. And that provided no relief at all. It's a crap theory if you ask me. Most of these psychological theories are.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:33:16 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Really?
Message:
Didn't you feel when you got knowledge, kind of 'special' that you had received the ultimate thing and that you had found Maharaji when so many others hadn't? Didn't you feel relief that you didn't have to search for happiness anymore? Boy, I sure did, although it certainly didn't last.

I'm not suggesting, and neither is the research, that being a premie didn't bring it's own stresses, lots of them, but in the beginning I really did experience a relief and kind of peace. But as time went on, the added stress of having to practice something and believe in something that obviously didn't work, and to deal with the fears like you mentioned, overwhelmed the relief and peace I had felt earlier. That's when it got so miserable I left.

But I could really relate to those studies from my own experience.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:26:39 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Uh, huh, if I recall correctly
Message:
To be honest, Joe, I felt let down. The message I heard from Maharaji was 'experience, then believe'. Of course, what I heard from the premies was 'believe, then experience'. It was a conflicting message, but I figured Maharaji is the boss, so I'll do it his way. I was a little put off by the vow we had to take, and singing arti afterwards was the first and last time I ever did. I didn't like it. I wasn't into it. The only thing I heard was 'Knowledge is an experience.... Knowledge is an experience.... Knowledge is an experience.' That's all I heard, all I was interested in, and I just shut everything else out. So, when I walked away from the Knowledge session without the 'experience', the thing I went in there for, all I felt was disappointed. If I felt relief, it was because I'd finally received K after procrastinating for so long, which I had done for years, for fear of losing my soul if Maharaji was really the anti-christ. Didn't you ever worry about that? That was a big fear among Christians, I think, that Maharaji might be trying to snatch our souls, never mind saving them, so much for relief. Nah, Maharaji was just bad news for me, no peace of mind, ever. And I never did get the 'experience', not as a premie anyway. I've had some beautiful shifts in consciousness outside of M & K, but all Maharaji ever provided was disappointment and confusion.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:56:05 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Really!
Message:
My experience was more like Jerry's: I wanted to get in on the ground floor, what with the Lord being here and all, and I didn't want to lose my chance at salvation. I actually argued with the Bai at my Knowledge session about the light technique and was told to 'be quiet and meditate.' I was expecting something cosmic, I got her fingers in my eye. I should have walked out right then, but I decided to be quiet and meditate, and I didn't leave the cult for a while because I was sure that I just wasn't trying hard enough and that there must be an experience there. So, just like Jerry, it actually caused me more distress.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:36:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: So, didn't you get 'blissed out?'
Message:
Hi Mickey,

Yeah, I had the messianic thing going, but I also got blissed out for awhile. In addition to feeling relief for getting 'the answer,' and feeling like I had no responsibility to look for meaning in life anymore, about the same time, I cut all the strings to my life, basically gave up my identity, got rid of every material possession I had except for a few clothes, and moved into the ashram.

There was a certain blissful happiness that came from that. I no longer had to be 'me,' I had no real responsibilities except to practice knowledge and do what I was told, and Maharaji was taking care of me.

For the rest of my years in the cult, I always wanted to get back to that experience, which happened less and less, perhaps a few times in the 'group high' we got at festivals, but that was about it. Eventually, even that didn't work anymore. Then it was just drudgery.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:18:09 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: So, didn't you get 'blissed out?'
Message:
Hi Joe,
I must confess, I think that I only got blissed out at festivals and stuff, and most of the time I was not being honest with myself; I was pretending to be as blissed out as everyone else seemed to be. I remember how disappointed I was after my first darshan, but everyone was so happy and blissed out that I, too, became just as ecstatic. I did have a lot of fun with folks, almost as much fun as we had at dinner with TD that time.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index