Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 18, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


cedarflower -:- confussed! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:16:35 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: confussed! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:28:39 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- Re: confussed! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 09:27:05 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Not confussed -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 01:49:44 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Good luck! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 22:04:47 (EDT)
__ __ Joy -:- Excellent post, Carl -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 04:20:22 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- talk about football, confussed -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:38:26 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- or politics, or mutual funds, -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:51:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Right -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:19:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- Dumbya owes 5 robes + Ralphie! [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:35:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Thanks such, for the light-hearted touch:) [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:59:51 (EDT)

David -:- I was mistaken -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:28:47 (EDT)
__ SC -:- Still Mistaken Pal -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 03:14:07 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Wrong, very wrong -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 05:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- David, err, ahem.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 10:13:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- This is boring but -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:26:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- It ain't your job - period! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:45:49 (EDT)
__ such -:- re: S + M -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:47:36 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- David, did you ever... -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:47:43 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- orig. crispy rec.--w/no artif. ingred's -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 14:16:07 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Bizzare -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:16:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Talking of the 'Divine Times' -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 09:36:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Nearly right - ask Glen Whittaker -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:16:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Stoke-on-Trent:my uncle was Lord Mayor! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:29:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- you will be writing, I will be reading. [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 16:43:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Bizzare -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:43:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do I get to use the studio? -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:37:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Jim! thats great man!!!! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:18:59 (EDT)

Mr. Mind -:- YES PwK's, You Too are Guilty -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 06:26:23 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Good for you [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:04:12 (EDT)
__ R2 -:- I guess there's nothing left to do -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:51:52 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- Re:there's everything left to do -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 14:33:20 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Right on! NT -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 07:42:33 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: YES PwK's, You Too are Guilty -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 06:55:42 (EDT)

JHB -:- A gem from the archives re: abuse -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 04:06:59 (EDT)
__ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: A gem from the archives re: abuse -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:40:28 (EDT)

Wizard of Id -:- on Miragey? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:35:56 (EDT)
__ Wizard of Id -:- bad link above - 2nd try -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:38:40 (EDT)
__ __ Wizard od Id -:- see Sunday, Aug. 12th (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:32:17 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Good one [nt] -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:07:16 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- da divine right of kings! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:47:44 (EDT)

Barry -:- This is heavy! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 15:22:26 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: This is heavy! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:21:19 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Thanks Cynthia. -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:21:44 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Sometimes Life is Heavy -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:21:52 (EDT)
__ __ Hi Joe -:- Joe?.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:26:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Joe?.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:20:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Joe?.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:47:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Joe?.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:21:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Joe?.... -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 22:27:34 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Strong topics, and wimpages. -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:17:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Incompetence is my point too. -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:29:16 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: This is heavy! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 01:58:21 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: This is heavy! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:12:30 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I know! I know! (OT) -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 02:04:45 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: This is heavy! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 22:34:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: This is heavy! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:41:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Wow! excellent reply! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:33:36 (EDT)

Silvia -:- Help: EV/Visions is harrassing me! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:23:05 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Help: EV/Visions is harrassing me! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:15:22 (EDT)
__ __ sILVIA -:- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:25:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bob o -:- Re: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 08:27:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ silvia -:- visiting -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:05:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Remake of Thelma and Louise -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:44:40 (EDT)
__ such -:- the wristwatch costs $525 -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:40:16 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Bone China Cup costs only 39 plus shipping -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:24:13 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- any coffee mugs? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 12:54:06 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Have a good vacation! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 13:37:10 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- HE SELLS HIS PHOTOS TOO! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:25:37 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- psst...you wan some feelthy pictures? [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 18:32:45 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: HE SELLS HIS PHOTOS TOO! -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:58:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- more hahahahhaha -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 21:01:17 (EDT)

Bobo -:- So what's the status? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:50:18 (EDT)
__ Barry -:- Bobo! Are you by chance... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:09:10 (EDT)
__ Barry -:- Bobo! Are you by chance... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:09:05 (EDT)
__ Barry -:- Bobo! Are you by chance... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:09:02 (EDT)
__ REJOICE -:- Isn't Patrick Halley Day this month? [nt] -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:36:06 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- coming soon: Pat Halley's 3rd letter : The Finale -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:35:30 (EDT)

JHB -:- Updated Journey on EPO (Hamzen) -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:55:46 (EDT)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Updated Journey on EPO (Hamzen) -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 15:08:00 (EDT)
__ __ ham -:- I've been meaning to e-mail ya? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 19:26:39 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- I have questioned Hamzen the event -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:04:22 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Thanks JHB -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:02:52 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Thanks JHB -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:09:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ hammy -:- Under the same management? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:38:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Under the same management? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:32:40 (EDT)

JHB -:- New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann) -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:52:11 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann) -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:49:22 (EDT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Spinsang -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 19:48:40 (EDT)
__ __ Annie -:- Evolving from brookside close! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:41:49 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- some nice reflections from Marcelo -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:22:09 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- for the sake of those -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:25:22 (EDT)
__ ANNIE -:- Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann) -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 11:40:18 (EDT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- The ego trippin' Mahatma who gave K -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:53:43 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann) -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:49:57 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann) -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 02:41:41 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Email address -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:53:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: Email address -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:19:07 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- To Abi, Susan....and Jim -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:09:57 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- Re: To Abi, Susan....and Jim -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:40:44 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- Mel, how do you separte M&K? -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:29:59 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Great post, La-ex ... bUUUUuuuttt -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:41:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- It depends which kind of premie, Jim... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:08:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good point, Nige -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:43:18 (EDT)
__ bill -:- the 'non doubter' line needs a review Mel.. [nt] -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 17:01:32 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Time to connect the dots, Mel? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:41:05 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- thank you Mel -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 14:53:48 (EDT)
__ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: To Abi, Susan....and Jim -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 11:07:51 (EDT)
__ __ Deja View -:- Re: To Abi, Susan....and Jim -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:17:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- EV=M -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:37:39 (EDT)
__ __ DEborah -:- BTDT--Thank you for reporting that -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:42:43 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- But it doesn't come from nowhere Mel -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:44:01 (EDT)

Joey -:- Iron in the Soul -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 00:38:48 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** Bravo! [nt] -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 13:48:33 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- I agree wholeheartedly -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:55:19 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Rusted, pitted, battered & friable -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 02:33:19 (EDT)
__ such -:- precisely, Joey! [good reading] [nt] -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 01:28:57 (EDT)

Barry -:- Promotion! (ot) -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 22:51:06 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- that's sweet thanks -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 23:29:24 (EDT)

Jim -:- May I reiterate this point? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:17:41 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Donner? Would you please ask Gary something? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 21:47:13 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something? -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:13:47 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Sometime last year -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 05:49:17 (EDT)
__ __ donner -:- Re: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 23:43:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- **BEST OF FORUM** and good thread -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 13:56:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 00:08:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ donner -:- Re: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 23:51:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dave Punshon -:- donner, was gurucharanand.. -:- Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 05:53:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr D -:- Or do they? -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)


Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:16:35 (EDT)
From: cedarflower
Email: cedarflower@yahoo.co.uk
To: All
Subject: confussed!
Message:
My place here on this is site must be a little odd to some of you people.My situation is one I am finding very difficult to get my head around.My partner for a long time was into m and all his stuff but has recently seen a new side to it all and is feeling very let down and betrayed,I think she will be fine but needs to get it out of her system.My angle on the other hand is not so fine.For years I made it clear that I was not into this m person but was persueded he was a good person with very valid ideas.It took me a while to get round all this but in the end I did and I learnt to respect and support my partners beliefs.This took alot out of me and the effort was huge.I got to meet all her friends who were also into m and they turned out to be wonderful people,but I still felt that I was spiritually retarded.Now things have gone so the opposite I am having trouble dealing with the whole 'he's a fake' thing.I work around people who worship the ground m walks on an we get on well.They hope one day ill follow them and also recieve knowledge ,but if I dont ,its o.k .You see when they find out about my partners turn around I am going to come under heavy fire from both sides.I have respect for both sides and I give support where I can,I am considered a good listener and try to be as diplomatic as possible.So, my question is (bearing in mind that the friendships here a very strong)what can be said to keep our friends, still our friends ?
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:28:39 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cedarflower
Subject: Re: confussed!
Message:
Hi Cedarflower,

I think your post is an excellent example of the fact that 'receiving knowledge' is not really a significant part of the Maharaji cult trip. Even though you never received knowledge, you still were programmed to some degree, just being around other members of the cult, that Maharaji was/is somebody special, and that there is some value to what he offers. So, I think to a degree, you will probably go through some kind decompression, but maybe not as extreme as your partner, since she was in a lot longer than you.

I admire the fact that you didn't receive knowledge just because those around you wanted you to. A lot of people do that. They think that if they receive knowledge it will make their relationship better, that they will have a supportive 'group' of 'friends' to be a part of. Good for you that you trusted your own intuition.

Yes, just like any other group of people, many premies are very nice people, often very sincere. We were all premies once, too and we can relate. But there is lot that goes along with being a premie that is very damaging. It's a major mind-fuck, if you know what I mean, and I think it really stagnates a lot of people who are involved. It's infantalizing, sort of.

Just remember that you and your partner will always be much better off knowing the truth and seeing things the way they are, rather than you would like them to be, or you have been led to believe. It's hurts some at first, but like Deena says above, things do get much better, and you and your partner will feel much freer, and much better, getting that charlatan Maharaji out of your lives.

That doesn't mean you have to look down on your premie friends. Everyone has to come to the realization themselves, in their own time. It's the kind of thing you can't convince someone of if they aren't ready to hear it, as we all know, because we were premies once too, and couldn't hear it, and sometimes we converse with premies on the forum and know how frustrating that is.

Good luck.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 09:27:05 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: cedarflower
Subject: Re: confussed!
Message:
Hey Cedarflower-

Thanks for your sincere post.

I think Carl's post said a lot...I don't feel too much to add, except that everything always works out one way or another...I wouldn't try to take too much responsibility for what happens or doesn't happen....it doesn't really seem to be your issue (at least not directly, because you don't have knowledge or seem to want to get it...I understand that indirectly it is, because of your involvement with your partner who is a premie).
I don't think you can control too much of the situation, in terms of how other people feel and react...

What I found with my own situation in seing through maharaji was that when people found that I couldn't go along with the maharaji agenda anymore, my real friends stayed (although it inevitably does place a strain on the relationship to some degree, as there is now a 'hot-button' issue to work around), while the acquaintances seemed to get a bit more distant.
I didn't really lose any close friends, although there definitely is a new element in the relationship.

I didn't talk to any of my friends about the maharaji issue for quite awhile, but I now am starting to.

I got tired of hearing them talk in glowing terms about seeing maharaji, while I remained silent.
So every time one of them said something pro-maharaji, I would add, in my response, what I felt, which was definitely an anti-maharaji sentiment.
While awkward at first, I felt that it was the most honest way to be with them...if they are really friends, they should be able to hear anything I want to express.

Due to that, many of them are now opening up a bit to actually understanding what some of the anti-maharaji sentiments are all about.

In some ways the whole issue is very unpredictable....I never dreamed I would feel the way I do now about maharaji...
Just a day or two before I realized I was leaving, I had absolutely no idea that I would do so.
I also never had any idea that when I did leave, I would feel so good.
I have reclaimed parts of my life that maharaji stole, and to recognize that and act on it is incredibly liberating and empowering....I never would have realized how much happier I would be by leaving maharaji-I had been conditioned for almost 30 years to believe just the opposite...

La-ex

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 01:49:44 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: cedarflower
Subject: Not confussed
Message:
Premies are cowards, really. They will not question anything even if you talk about your point of view. If they ask I would simply remind them that the beauty of life is that it has a place for everybody; it is our perception which creates our individual reality and each being has the right to see with their own eyes life, themselves, and some don't want or need a master.

Premies believe with 100% certainty all m says and they see themeselves, and pedal that, that they are the chosen ones, special ones etc. Don't buy EVER that. Is all a facade and full of adoration to the leader of the cult. That is the ultimate goal: Become a toe sucker...Don't get trapped in their web; do not contemplate knowing more, please! Be yourself:YOU ARE ALREADY COMPLETE!

MAHARAJI IS THE LEADER OF A CULT!

It is really the case of looking like something good but is truly the opposite. Just remind them, premies that we are free to believe what we want.

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 22:04:47 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: cedarflower
Subject: Good luck!
Message:
This is a delicate situation, no doubt.

If you've been diplomatic so far, that will continue to help you if your intention is to keep your friendships with premies intact or at least civil.

But I imagine your primary interest is in being loving and supportive to your partner who may be going through some profoundly unsettling realizations about where and how she had directed her primary heart-felt spiritual efforts for X years.

Please don't underestimate the depth of her dismay, or the manner in which she may seek balance and healing. It may take a while to resolve, or not; there may be anger or depression, or not; but in time there should be a refreshing sense of reality and clarity of thinking and energized joy of release in her new-found freedom. Well, I hope so anyway. Most who post here have travelled a challenging path of self-deprogramming and recovery, with a lot of help from the ideas and materials available here. For most people there seems to be a similar sense of deep relief after all is said and done.

It is ironic, you might agree, that even though you were never a premie to begin with, you are now in the process of deprogramming yourself from the cult in a way. It is tricky because M's 'philosophy' does contain some valid or at least appealing ideas. Or perhaps I should say, he does present some 'timeless truths' along with a host of other concepts having to do with his personal glory. The meditation techniques, while not unique to him, are felt by many to be extremely helpful in 'discovering peace within'. This is true for many exes also, the only difference being that the slavish and ritual adoration of M, practically institutionally mandated, had finally gotten to be untenable and repugnant.

As for your premie friends, they deserve some compassion as well, as would any Jehovah's Witness, Moonie, Mormon, 'Born Again' Christian, Scientologist, Presbyterian, Catholic or Republican. Without question, there are very nice or friendly people in many groups espousing dubious ideas. But let no one leave you with the feeling that you are 'spiritually retarded'. If your friendships are fundamentally based upon assenting to or sympathising with a philosophy you have examined enough to understand in your gut that it is not for you, then the closeness may cool somewhat. But if the relationships are grounded in basic fellow-feeling and simple human love and respect, then all will remain sound. Some folks can agree to disagree and still love one another. That's my guess, my hope, anyway.

Please keep posting as things unfold. Your perspective is unique and will be very helpful to many who may now be going through a similar situation and who now may only be silently monitoring this Forum.

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 04:20:22 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Excellent post, Carl
Message:
That's a really nice post, Carl.

My advice to Cedarflower also would be to just steer clear of the subject of the supposed Master at all, and keep the friendships on a human level. Premies, as a whole, are pretty cool people and just stay focused on what it is about them that you like, apart from the obnoxious M, and hopefully all will be well. I just avoid the subject like the plague, there's no sense arguing 'religion' as everybody is where they are and they're no doubt well aware of your non-involvement. Just be true to yourself, and if you don't want to be involved in the whole trip, don't be. Follow your own path scrupulously, be true to your own heart and soul and beware the power of group-think and cultish mentality, it can suck you in before you know it.

Best wishes,
Joy
(20 years an ex and still has some premie friends)

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:38:26 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: cedarflower
Subject: talk about football, confussed
Message:
That'll really show you who your friends are, & you won't have to worry about being spiritually retarded . You can be retarded in real life then & all your friends can practice being diplomatic to you in return.

Howzat for free advice

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:51:14 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: or politics, or mutual funds,
Message:
or gardening, or music, or movies, or food, or photography, or golf, or health plans, or historical or fiction literature [great books], families and kids, or pet companions, or beers, or maybe quantum or astro-physics...
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:19:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Right
Message:
Or if you want to start a big fight, raise amongst a bunch of die-hard liberals whether one should have voted for Ralph Nader or not. I was at a dinner party the other night that almost erupted in a food fight. No talk of cults, though.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:35:03 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dumbya owes 5 robes + Ralphie! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:59:51 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Thanks such, for the light-hearted touch:) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:28:47 (EDT)
From: David
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I was mistaken
Message:
The person calling himself SC and Mitch Ward probably was not the person calling himself 'Passing Through'. He could have been but he claims otherwise. However, I'm not wrong about SC being Mitch Ward.

Passing Through has denied being Snake and Mala and we have to take his word for it. Snake and Mala were definitely one person though. Mala pretended to be a person recently receiving knowledge while Snake was an old premie.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 03:14:07 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Still Mistaken Pal
Message:
dingoblue is the second largest internet carrier in the South Pacific. And they don't give out names to Hotboards 'admin' I can assure you.

You're not sticking the Snake/ Mala tab on me still?
Well that's a relief . I've never even heard of the fuckers!

Was that some attempt at a pissweak apology?

Hmmm... You're beginning to sound like a politician. You weren't 'mistaken' by the way, you were totally out of order. Anyway, your apology should be placed on LG where your shame was first exposed.

St Peter's church hall was my spiritual womb too, all of us sitting on cushions singing our hearts out before listening to an inintelligable Indian Mahatma. Incence everywhere, slight smell of grass ocassionally. Boy, those sure were the days!

I think we enjoyed those days of public bliss and unity. Have to say, Amaroo gets pretty bloody close during a 4 day event. I'd love to see you there one day Mr Simpkiss, you are remembered fondly.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 05:01:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Wrong, very wrong
Message:
Nobody who has ever posted here remembers me from the old days. It's almost as if I dreamt it all.

I am shameless, dear chap. I have no shame. If you knew me you'd know that. But you're getting paranoid. I never asked your ISP (which isn't dingoblue) for your name. I'm not interested. However, your ISP is having a problem with resident spammers, I see. A Scottish website has written on their site:

''The amount of spam coming from ****.com.au is rising rapidly. Complaints are being ignored. So we had no choice but to ban ****.com.au users from our mailservers. This means if you are an **** account holder, email to us from your **** account will be rejected by our mail server.''

Your ISP has been replaced by **** above. I'm sure you're not one of the spammers they're having problems with but it is interesting.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 10:13:01 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: David, err, ahem....
Message:
I'm now NOT with dingoblue?? Jesus David, you gotta change your intelligence service! Hey, I'm trying to help you here!!

Following is the letter I got when the one.tel network went down. Following that riveting read is one of my subsequent dingoblue invoices. I would be very grateful if you'd let them know I'm not using their service. It would save me $30 a month.

Dear ***** ******
As a customer of One.Net, you are no doubt aware that
One.Tel Limited (the parent company of One.Net) has
been put into voluntary administration.

You have received this email because dingo blue has
been appointed by the administrator of One.Tel to help
provide you with immediate, alternative Internet (ISP)
services.

If you would rather view an HTML version of this email,
please click on the link below:
http://email.emailit.com.au/kct123126810.5891.0.22569

Firstly, we strongly suggest you should either print or
save this email in case your current Internet service
is withdrawn.

Here's what you get from a dingo blue Internet service:
* Up to 5 email addresses
* 5MB personal web space
* Generous 1.5GB downloads per calendar month
* 12 hour session limits (from July 15th 2001)
* dingo blue is backed and owned by AGL (Australia's
leading energy provider)

At dingo blue, we have Internet plans to suit different
levels of usage. If you're a heavy user of the Internet,
then 'Big Bytes' will suit you. If you're a light user,
then 'Small Bytes' is for you.

Whichever you choose, we'll credit your account with
$40 just for joining. That's how committed we are to
saving you money.

Here's how 'Big Bytes' shapes up:
* $25 per month if you also sign up to dingo blue long
distance
* $35 per month if you only take the Big Bytes service
* Unlimited number of dial-up sessions
* Up to 400 hours access per calendar month

Or dingo blue 'Small Bytes' - for lighter users:
* $10 per month for 10 hours Internet access if you
also sign up to dingo blue long distance
* $15 per month for 10 hours Internet access if you
only take the Small Bytes service
* 2.5c/min ($1.50/hour) thereafter

Signing up to dingo blue is easy!

The quickest (and easiest) way to sign up is to click
on the link below, and simply complete your application
on-line:
http://email.emailit.com.au/kct1231256810.5891.0.22570

You will then be issued with a user name and password.

Next, follow the link to either 'browse online' or
'download the instructions' on how to set up and
configure your computer to dingo blue.

Alternatively, call 1300 555 408 for full details and
assistance. (Please be patient when calling in - we
anticipate a large number of calls and there could be
delays. We apologise in advance for any inconvenience.)

Welcome aboard!

Yours sincerely,

Martin Paech
Chief Executive Officer
dingo blue


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PLEASE NOTE
The $40 account credit will be made to a new dingo blue
telecommunications account 30 days after the account
holder has paid their first dingo blue invoice.
Services acquired via the Offer are subject to dingo
blue's Standard Pricing, Terms and Conditions, as
amended from time to time.

From July 15th 2001, a 12-hour session limit will apply
to continuous dial-up sessions. Of course you can
re-connect immediately should you want to. An automatic
disconnection will occur if you don't actively use your
dingo blue dial-up connection for 60 minutes or longer.
Call charges apply. Unused hours are not rolled over.
Limit of two services per household. Not for commercial
use. Reasonable Usage Policies for both Big Bytes and
Small Bytes can be viewed here:
http://email.emailit.com.au/kct1231256810.5891.0.22571


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OPTING OUT.

If you'd rather not hear about special customer offers -
no problem. Just REPLY to this message and write
UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line. We'll remove you from our
list.


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(c) 2001 dingo blue Pty Ltd ABN 26 086 565 862 All rights reserved.

Ref 133 - 266804331

Return-Path:
Received: from mona.dingoblue.com.au ([202.139.168.221])
by mail007.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f7603mP16993
for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:03:49 +1000
Received: from sonja ([172.20.1.69]) by mona.dingoblue.com.au
(Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GHMDIB00.6JZ for
user@dingoblue.net.au>; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:03:47 +1000
From: 'dingo blue bill'
To: user@dingoblue.net.au>
Subject: Dingo Blue Invoice
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:03:47 +1000
Message-ID:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary='
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Dear user,

Please find attached your monthly dingo blue invoice for your review.
Please note that all payments will be automatically deducted from your
nominated credit card or bank account 16 days from the invoice issue date.

Please let us know if you have any questions about your statement.
Likewise, don't forget that you can always log on to our web site at
http://www.dingoblue.com.au and view both your billed and unbilled usage at anytime! The advantage of using the website is that you can sort your call
data however you would like and keep an eye on what costs are coming up next
month!

Kind Regards,
dingo blue

P.S. If you don't have Acrobat Adobe to open the invoice, go to
http://www.adobe.com and download 'Get Acrobat Reader'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:26:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: This is boring but
Message:
This is what your IP address threw up:


Optus Communications Pty Ltd (NET-OPTUSNET1)
54 Carrington Street
Sydney, New South Wales 2001
AU

Netname: OPTUSNET1
Netblock: **********

Coordinator:
Whelan, Geoff (GW311-ARIN) domain@optusnet.com.au
61 2 1300 301 325 (FAX) 61 2 9439 1760

Domain System inverse mapping provided by:

NS1.OPTUSNET.COM.AU *********
NS2.OPTUSNET.COM.AU *********

Record last updated on 22-Dec-2000.
Database last updated on 13-Aug-2001 23:08:28 EDT.


OK so optusnet.com.au is the parent of dingowhatever. This is not my main job, you know.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:45:49 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It ain't your job - period!
Message:
maybe practice your jousting or archery a bit more...?

Glen remembers you, so do lan, Alan, Mary and Bobbie

What deleted your memory files? Fear of remembering how blissfull happy you really were back then? Too bad , others can, and do, remember for you. If that ain't love then tell me what is!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:47:36 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: David
Subject: re: S + M
Message:
let's see: a Snake with Mala? uh.... gee, sounds eerily familiar....hmmm, like deja vu.....uhhhhh...... flashback....but the psychic friends connection definitely points to some kind of sado-masochistic relationship... yes, that relationship, that feeling, that trust, that devotion, that new Aston Martin...

Some people obviously learned their lessons well -- er, da de facto cheat/deceit. bottom-feeders.

hohoho

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:47:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: David
Subject: David, did you ever...
Message:
... in your wildest imagination at, say age 19 or even even a couple of years ago for that matter, think you would be attempting to identify anonymous trolls on a global level? What a long strange trip it still is.

Richard (original crispy recipe)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 14:16:07 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: orig. crispy rec.--w/no artif. ingred's
Message:
and naturally sweetened, with no over processing, or genetic modifiers, certified organically grown, free of animal cruelty, earth friendly, ecologically correct, PETA approved,
and preserved only with humor and irradiated only by enlightenment.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:16:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Bizzare
Message:
At 19 I couldn't decide whether to get back into cycle-racing or carry on being a hippie. Then I found DLM. This kind of internet thing was beyond even science fiction back then.

It was Saint Peter's Church Hall with Mahatma Ashokanand Ji and Glen Whittaker leading us to the lotus feet of the Lord. The Anand Band was the most hi-tech thing available, together with the ''Divine Times'' newspaper and ''Divine Light'' magazine.

Never back then, did I think I'd be hosting a worldwide forum for ex-devotees of the Living Lord. Searching out anonymice premies in Australia via my home computer would have been laughable.

Life is bizarre. If I'm still around in ten years time, I wonder what I'll be doing then?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 09:36:05 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Talking of the 'Divine Times'
Message:
I remember you jogging what's left of my memory when you quoted one of the headlines from an early 'Divine Times' (maybe even Issue #1?).

'The West welcomes the Lord' it read.

I wonder if you've still got a copy of that issue, Dave? If so, a scan of it and a permanent home on EPO would make it blatantly obvious to new aspirants that when EV say that M 'never claimed to be God', they're talking out of their nether regions.

As they say, a picture's worth a thousand words.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:16:59 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Nearly right - ask Glen Whittaker
Message:
Glen Whittaker will back me up on this one. The headline of the first ever 'Divine Times' read:

THE WEST GREETS THE LORD

I believe Glen Whittaker penned that headline himself. No, I'm afraid I don't have it. It's all stuck in my memory from long ago. Another headline which caught the eyes of shoppers in Stoke-on-Trent where I was selling it on the streets was:

HOSPITALS KILL!

I believe Mahatma Ashokanand Ji was responsible for this literary stroke of genius.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:29:59 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Stoke-on-Trent:my uncle was Lord Mayor!
Message:
Sir Dave:

ever heard of Naylor's department store[s]?

Uncle Harold lived up on the hill overlooking the city, in the house built by the founders of Royal Doulton china and once owned by L.L. Milne [author of Winnie the Pooh}

First time I heard da 'Beatles For Sale' album was playing billiards and sipping sherry at Xmastime with my cousins and Lord Harold. hahaha

Peace and lentils,

Sir
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aka swami j. suchabanana

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 16:43:00 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: you will be writing, I will be reading. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:43:45 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Bizzare
Message:
If I'm still around in ten years time, I wonder what I'll be doing then?

You'll be relaxing on a chaise longue at the pool within the compound of the former rez in Malibu - now known as 'Sir Dave's Cheddar View Rest Home for Ex's' - while M's kids bring you wonderful organic tropical fruit drinks with tiny umbrellas and massage your extravagently tanned limbs. Well, it could happen!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:37:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Do I get to use the studio?
Message:
And I'm not a smoker but I'd take it up briefly it I could smoke a big, fat, stinky cigar in his bedroom and put it out in the carpet. Oh we'd have some fun trashing that place, wouldn't we?

Hm, is that a threat? A threat to vandalize, cause mischief, create a disturbance and convert property? Well, I most certainly didn't mean it that way.

Time to go ride my bike (30 minutes a day, last three days)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:18:59 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim! thats great man!!!!
Message:
Are you really riding your bike 30 min a day? Thats great man. When I come home we'll all have to go to fight club with Collone. Spend some of this new energy your probably building. By the way hows the CD, the Band, the new song writing? E mail me bud I miss ya all. later.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 06:26:23 (EDT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: All
Subject: YES PwK's, You Too are Guilty
Message:
I posted this on the cult forum yesterday and was censored by the poor sap that owns it.

Yes Dear Premies, you too are guilty(after the fact)of all the same things as your Master. From this point on, you can no longer escape responsibility for his actions. There are too many charges against Mr. Rawat, from too many independent sources. He, not just his various shell organizations, has caused much harm to thousands.

So, from this point on, you are also guilty if:

-You give him money

-You try to propogate his crap

-You don't make sure that all the other foot kissers you know are aware of all the charges against your OWNER(Trying to protect their experience is bullshit)

Call this a guilt trip if you like but that slime has hurt too many people and despite the mesmerizing hold that SLIME still has on you, you know deep down what you should do.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:04:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Good for you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:51:52 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: I guess there's nothing left to do
Message:
.....but begin the crucifi-x-ions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 14:33:20 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Re:there's everything left to do
Message:
get up, get, put the body in motion
do it to start the commotion

wind it up, baby!

ya know, I was thinking, the other day...[yess, i was indulging in that forbidden vice that's so dangerous and threatening to the power structure]
that when we were called 'premies', we were always being idientified by our love, which is what 'prem' means, in hindi.

it strikes me that it was only after maharaji retired the quaint little endearment of calling his followers 'premies' and instead decided to rename them People with Knowledge, shortened to PWK's [which can be pronounced either 'pukes' or pwick's, depending on your preference], that his followers began to feel free to be as abusive and degrading as they felt like.
all the lovey stuff dissipated like windex in the hot sun.
and now, a puke is a follower who can think no original thought of their own, can only vomit up the odious, indigestible, poisonous drek that they ingest from their master, while a pwick is an egotistical, snotty, superiorly deluded insulter, with the intellectual capacity and virility of elmer fudd.

however, for the sake of old times and fair balance, if 'premie' was coined out of the hindi word for 'love', and we the ex'es are supposed to be a hate club, perhaps we should find the hindi word for 'hate', or some other suitable equivalent for the emotion or motivating feeling that drives us, and give ourselves a corresponding name to be the obverse of 'premies'.
anyone now hindi well enough to venture suggestions?

'manamath' is HIS word, so i set it apart before we open the floor to nominations and naming notions.

anyone?

suggested root words to work from:
hate
disgusted
wrathful
disillusioned
wise ones
realized
betrayed ones
divorced ones

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 07:42:33 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Right on! NT
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 06:55:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Re: YES PwK's, You Too are Guilty
Message:
Well said, Mr Mind. If premies tell other people about their 'master' they should also include that as well as being the 'only way to come home' that he is also an alchoholic and drug user who doesn't meditate himself and will tell them that they 'should never doubt the purity of the master'.

Anything less is a lie. They should also tell people that only a fictional relationship with the master is important in their lives and all other relationships can go to hell. They should be told not to plan for their future with such things as pensions and savings accounts but to give all their spare money to Maharaji because as he has said - he never worries about pensions.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 04:06:59 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A gem from the archives re: abuse
Message:
I found this in the forum archives. Given our continuing concern with the abuse that occurred in DLM/EV, I thought it worth reprinting.

John

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Mon, Sep 06, 1999 at 18:39:27 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Building an abuse-resistant culture
Message:
This is a long post, trying to outline an idea I’ve been brewing for some time now. It's serious, too - maybe Anth can lighten it up!

Several people have pointed out that it’s probably a given that individuals with a proclivity to abuse will be drawn to organisations such as churches, and community groups, where
they can have access to victims. That this happens can hardly be blamed on the organisation involved. However, an organisation can do a number of things to build a culture in
which such individuals are unlikely to get away with abusive behaviour. How does an organisation build a culture which minimises the possibility of abuse? Although we’ve been
talking on this forum about DLM/Elan Vital, this question is equally relevant for any organisation where people are potentially vulnerable - particularly organisations where children
are about, or where there are people with reduced ability to look out for themselves, eg people with mental retardation.

As a first step, the organisation can be very careful in its selection of those who are to hold positions of power. Selection processes should be open, referees carefully checked.

Mechanisms which provide avenues for feedback in relation to those who have been selected for powerful positions can be provided, for example, performance reviews. These
could routinely encompass interviews with those in subordinate positions or roles, to see how they’ve found working with that person. Certainly, this may not pick up heavy abuse,
if it’s been well-hidden e.g. through threats. But it might give the potential abuser pause if s/he knew that feedback would be routinely solicited.

Wider measures may be more powerful. An organisation can develop a culture of review, in which feedback and discussion are encouraged at all levels. This may not be as neat as
its more authoritarian alternative, but it increases ownership and means that people feel free to talk about things which aren’t going so well. Potentially, it means the organisation will
be stronger, as it is continually able to identify problems in their early stages, and set things right. If open discussion and feedback were the norm, it’s more likely that people would
feel free to speak up when something really off the wall, like child abuse, happened. Of course, to develop a culture of this kind, the organisation would need to be responsive to
people’s input: where problems were identified, something would need to be done to fix them. We’ve probably all worked in workplaces where there’s much talk about how valued
our contributions are, but very little real listening and action from those above when those opinions are voiced.

Some ways in which such a culture could be encouraged are: upper management getting to know people at lower levels. Open door policies. Meetings where people get to
participate in developing strategic direction, policy and procedures, and in making decisions. Formal reviews which encourage input from staff/members/clients eg through
interviews, focus groups, questionnaires, working groups, and which result in recommendations which reflect input, and are acted upon. Those in leadership roles can make it clear
that each person is valued, that clear and open communication is valued, and that people are expected to act in a way that respects the rights and needs of others.

People can be encouraged to trust their own feelings and intuition: if someone’s doing something to you that feels wrong, it most probably is. This is a standard strategy for helping
kids recognise and avoid abusive situations.

In more formal terms, an organisation can set up mechanisms through which complaints can be lodged. This needs to be done with care: too often the person to whom complaints
are supposed to be made is the very person who is in the position to abuse. Organisations can be creative in designating people to whom problems can be brought - they might
include a range of people, at different levels, and of different 'types' - men, women, professionals, non-professionals - the idea being that at least one of them will be someone whom
a potential victim would trust. All would need the personal qualities and skills to know how to handle a complaint. All would need the backing of the organisation. All would need to
know when it would be appropriate to involve outside authorities, such as the police.

Another safeguard which an organisation can employ to guard against extreme attitudes and behaviour, including abuse, is to make sure it is open to scrutiny by the wider
community. This might involve things such as holding widely-publicised and open AGMs, inviting outside people on to governance bodies, including community members outside
the group on the list of people with whom complaints can be taken, encouraging the use of community-based mediation and facilitation mechanisms when conflicts arose. External
review mechanisms are a powerful way to enable an organisation to find and fix its blind spots, including those which foster abuse.

All these things are safeguards: they don’t guarantee that abuse won’t happen, but they make it less likely that it will begin, and more likely that it will not continue.

So how does Maharaji’s organisation stack up on these kind of safeguards? I haven’t been around for about four years - people are always telling me it’s changed for the better
(heard that for 20 years while I was still 'in'). But the Elan Vital I knew did not have any feedback mechanisms, either for individuals, nor for the organisation as a whole. At college, I
routinely filled out evaluation forms at the end of each semester’s teaching - not once do I recall anything similar in relation to MJ’s instructors. As to having input into the 'big'
issues - such as the direction of the mission, the way in which K was perceived to relate (or not relate) to other aspects of life, or how meditation should be given to people who
were interested in it - there was no QUESTION of having input - MJ was the one and only person who determined how these things should be.

Open discussion? Any suggestion of criticism, particularly of MJ, was labelled 'negativity' and immediately dismissed. One of the final 'drips' for me was hearing MJ make it clear
that if you had a problem with ANYTHING to do with his trip, you should not raise it: his exact words were 'if you have a but, sit on it.' I must say, premies did discuss, amongst
themselves, the problems with particular instructors, many of whom were very strange human beings (though I never heard anything about Jagdeo and children). However these
concerns could not be raised with MJ, whose instructors they were. There was just no avenue to do this. If I’d been g’s mom, I wouldn’t have known anyone close to MJ to inform.
Letters were not answered, who knows if they were read? And anyway, we all knew that letters to MJ should not be 'negative', they should be full of praise and appreciation.

There were those question and answer sessions, occasionally. Not that they were discussions - the premies were the beggars, those sunk in confusion, MJ was the one with all the
answers. I can remember - and this is in the 90s - MJ waving a bunch of premie questions around, explaining how silly people were to have questions. Anyone who did so had to be
very brave: first, everyone could tell how confused you were just by the fact that you asked a question - MJ said people only asked questions if they were confused and not
sufficiently in touch with the real thing - the big K. Secondly, you ran the risk of public ridicule.

Open door policies? Top management in touch with the people? During the 20 years that I followed MJ, making every effort to make him my primary relationship, I think he spoke to
me twice. I have no idea if he knew my name, or anything about me. As someone who DID have issues about some things, I tried for years to get to have some sort of dialogue with
him - never happened. There was no way for me to make contact. And no sign from him that he would want me to do so.

Acting on feedback? That’s the major issue re Jagdeo and MJ. It seems he had the feedback, but didn’t act.

Were there messages that people were valued, that respectful interaction was expected? Sometimes. But at other times, MJ’s line did not encourage premies to treat each other well. I
can remember him saying 'you can’t trust the premies'. The whole three-legged stool analogy made it clear that there wasn’t room for other people in the equation - they were really
just a distraction. I also remember him talking about how we needed to be opportunists. Maybe he meant taking the opportunity to meditate, but he didn’t make that clear, and many
premies seemed to take it to mean they should fight their way to the top of the service ladder, stepping on whoever’s head was handy. There were the times when the whole idea of
community was denigrated. And relationships, we all knew, were doomed to failure, as they represented such an imperfect form of love. No, I think any sense of community and
respect - and I know it was there at times - was the product of the humanity of the premies themselves, rather than of MJ’s encouragement.

Were we encouraged to trust our own feelings and intuition? On the surface, the answer is yes: MJ talked all the time about following your feelings (heart as opposed to mind). But
then, he also defined what constituted 'heart'. I, for one, came to profoundly distrust any feeling I had about MJ and his world which was not gratitude, bliss, uncritical love. In the
ashram, there were times when I felt very uncomfortable about what was going on, and my intuition told me to get out fast. I stayed because it was agya to stay, and because I
'knew' I should be grateful to have the wonderful opportunity etc etc. I had friends living in premie houses which were much more open, loving, and tolerant places - I longed to be
with them, and in retrospect, I would have been much better off. What I learned in the ashram was that my feelings and perceptions were not to be trusted. Later, when things
started going wrong for my family, I was again repeatedly told that I wasn’t seeing things right, and that my feelings were incorrect. It has taken me a long time to learn to feel
comfortable with my own perceptions and feelings - to apply appropriate levels of questioning to them, but not to judge them by external criteria: eg MJ wants it this way, so it must
be right.

Formal complaints mechanisms? I never heard a whisper of such a thing.

Scrutiny from the wider community? The Elan Vital I knew was a very inward-looking organisation. With the exception of the short DUO phase, there was little involvement in the
outside world, except as a source of recruits or dollars. While non-devotees might have been called upon for technical advice, I do not recall their expertise being sought in 'people'
areas. The organisation’s books weren’t open; membership of Elan Vital, in a legal sense, was strictly limited; I was never invited to an AGM, let alone their being open to the public;
conflicts were supressed, certainly never taken to community-based conflict resolutions mechanisms; the idea of external review was a million miles away from EV culture.

The bottom line, to me, is that the kind of culture which encourages the openness in which abuse is unlikely to thrive, is a democratic culture. MJ’s world is authoritarian,
anti-democratic at its core. MJ is IT, what he says, goes. I find it amazing, at this distance, that intelligent, liberal-minded people - like me and you - accepted such an authoritarian
set-up without question. It could only have been because we believed MJ was the one person who had a right to play the role of an authoritarian ruler - he was the Perfect Master.
Premies still believe this. Premies who would be appalled at the idea of dictatorship in any other context, still accept it in Maharaji’s world.

Diz

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:40:28 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: A gem from the archives re: abuse
Message:
Wow. You've pretty much hit it on the head. EV still operates this way even though they claim otherwise. Everything now is supposed to be 'team' effort ie team this and team that, however the actual performance is still the same. There is now a form one can fill out to critique participation, but nothing like what you speak of. And god help anyone who has a question that implies any sort of negativity. To bring anything up on a conference call one practically gets 'boo'd'. To question the absurdity of how much money is required to host non maharaji events one must be extremely brave. There is only one person in one of the top EV positions that deals with people humanely but that's not even an acceptable rational in light of all the information. His name is Steve Rush. The guy over him is a bully. But now I understand why these people are allowed to be bullies. The people here who were pams and honestly spoke of their experiences leads me to believe the corporate trickle down theory applies to EV. The CEO sets the tone. Whether that is a CEO in a corporation or the principal in a school, that's where it starts. And we all know who the real CEO of EV is in no uncertain terms.The 'plum' positions in EV are filled only by Maharaji's authorizaton. Of course it's done in a sneaky way, the person must fill out a participation form and then formally okayed by EV. But I've been told by key people how they ended up where they are.
I admit that I've been relunctant to share everything I've learned here but not anymore. I can see quite clearly how EV is an environment that is not condusive to healthy participation. With all the recent postings concerning abuse, I now have to ponder if this is exactly why Maharaji never acted. There was more than Abi's experience and obviously he knew it. How was he to deal with one without the others coming to light? With some guts and honesty that's how and maybe cashing in his boat, for a start.
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:35:56 (EDT)
From: Wizard of Id
Email: None
To: All
Subject: on Miragey?
Message:

[ contentblocks.com/client/washpost/wiz.asp?client=6> Wizard of Id ]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:38:40 (EDT)
From: Wizard of Id
Email: None
To: Wizard of Id
Subject: bad link above - 2nd try
Message:
(the old-fashioned way)

Wizard of Id

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:32:17 (EDT)
From: Wizard od Id
Email: None
To: Wizard of Id
Subject: see Sunday, Aug. 12th (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:07:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Wizard of Id
Subject: Good one [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:47:44 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Wizard of Id
Subject: da divine right of kings!
Message:
i.e. 'L'etat c'est moi!' -- Louis PSR XIV hahaha
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 15:22:26 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: This is heavy!
Message:
Yesturday I read in the Edmonton Sun, that a man was raped by 2 men in an alleyway off White avenue in the early hours etc...The man said he was walking through the alley, and then felt a hard blow to the head from behind etc..
The reporter went on to write that this may happen more often than not, and that the victims seldom report their violations etc...etc.
The reporter then goes on to talk about how rape is not about sex, and that it's about power. He then goes on to say 'men raping men is probably the ultimate power rush'(quote). Now! Do you think this kind of reporting is good? I mean, don't you think writing something like the above quote is only going to give some asshole, already fucked up! a new perspective on an old power trip? Meaning: Hey! thats right! That would be way more of a power trip raping a man rather than a woman !' What is going on here? Is this kind of reporting right? I'm so sick of these jerks promoting the latest violent sick game of the day. Anyone agree that some reporters personal opinoin on whats the ultimate power crime..well we could do without?
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:21:19 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: This is heavy!
Message:
Hi Barry,

I read this yesterday and have been thinking. Rape is always about power. For the reporter to presume that 'men raping men is probably the ultimate power rush' indicates to me the reporter is lacking in information.

Ultimately, the sexist attitude shines through his remarks because the assumption is that 'man on man' rape is the 'utlimate power rush,' rather than another other type of sex offense. That's plain dumb.

Knowing what I do know about sexual predators, it's not good to generalize about this ''power rush.'' Sex offenders have their own MO's, and although it is about power, it is not the kind of thing that rapists IMO will copycat necesarily. Male on male rape happens in jails and prisons all the time.

So I guess I agree with you that the reporting is off. Write a letter to the editor expressing your concerns. I would say the ultimate power crime would be murder. Rape feels like murder, but you have to live afterwards. The stigma of men being raped is slowly unraveling. It's time for folks to understand that ALL rape is bad, not about sex, but about power, and it's not about machissmo.

I've commented on this subject a lot. The reporter sounds stupid, sensationalizing a terrible crime in the way he has. Tell him off!

Hope this helps...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:21:44 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia.
Message:
that was a great reply.
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:21:52 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Sometimes Life is Heavy
Message:
Even a premie, who falsely believes he or she is protected from unpleasantness by noticing the breath and fondly remembering their 'master' possibily by opening the wallet and looking at his ugly puss in a picture, on some level knows this.

I think it's fairly accepted that rape really isn't about sex but is about power. It's a violent, power act, as opposed to a sexual one. I think generally people are better off having the true facts, and censorship of unpleasant events is harmful in the long run. I doubt very much that talking about violence encourages more violence. On the other hand, victims, health professionals and the criminal justice system might be better off knowing the truth about these events. I say it should be reported.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:26:49 (EDT)
From: Hi Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe?....
Message:
Joe i agree with you. life is harsh and people should report these crimes. I am not argueing that. My thing was that this guy said, after reporting on the crime of rape itself(witch I've always known is about power)goes on to write that this is probably the ultimate power crime! thats dumb I think and will only arouse the regular rapeing scum bag to muddle over the idea, and then possibly give it a go!
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:20:07 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Hi Joe
Subject: Re: Joe?....
Message:
Well, I didn't see the whole article, but 'ultimate power crime' might be a bad choice of words, I will give you that. But I doubt very much that somebody is encouraged to rape because of reading an article. I think it comes from a deep-seated anger, rage, and self-hatred. I also think most people who engage in violent abuse were themselves abused at one time or another. Some people who were the subjects of long-term abuse as children take it out on themselves, some take it out on others, and some overcome it.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:47:35 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Joe?....
Message:
Hi Joe:

I agree with the following:

But I doubt very much that somebody is encouraged to rape because of reading an article. I think it comes from a deep-seated anger, rage, and self-hatred.

I do agree those tendencies have to be in place, but people can still get ideas on how to act-out their crime based on media sensationalism.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:21:48 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Joe?....
Message:
I do agree those tendencies have to be in place, but people can still get ideas on how to act-out their crime based on media sensationalism.

Maybe, but what do you do, just keep everything in the dark for fear of encouraging someone to do something wrong? I don't think there is any way you can hide negative things, no would you want to.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 22:27:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Joe?....
Message:
I agree with you. I told Barry that people need to have the explanation balanced, that's all. Otherwise, it could have the same effect as advertising. It seemed the reporter sensationalized the POWER aspect opposed to explaining it clearly. That's all.

Barry felt uneasy because of this fault on the reporter's part.

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 20:17:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Strong topics, and wimpages.
Message:
Joe:

Here here! But I'm not sure the objection was so much about *what* was reported, as about how it was interpreted. I supposed that there are only two possible motivations for rape, so it's pretty reasonable to conclude that power is the objective. But if sex isn't about intimacy then it's always about power, one way or another. And rape *is* about sex, or it wouldn't have much sting. Just how often *does* this happen, I wonder? If there are only five crimes a year in this category (outside of prison), then I'd have to ask: Don't we have anything better to talk about? And if it *is* happening frequently, then maybe we need to take a closer look.

BTW, Canada has laws against reporting certain details of crimes, and publishing the names and other details about those involved, that are much stricter than in the US. In spite of the fact that these laws supress 'the truth,' they seem reasonably healthy to me. I don't think society would be 'better off' knowing that stuff. Quite the contrary.

And I know all I'll ever want to know about the Chandra Levy case, until it's solved. My vote would be to fire the next twelve reporters who open their mouths about it as an example, not because I feel threatened, but because it's a sign of incompetence.

Q: How frequently does the word 'skyrocketing' appear in the US press every year in a context that has nothing to do with the exploration of space or the missile program? Does the term refer to the ascending or descending curve of the trajectory, do you think? I want to know whether I should get the binoculars, or duck and cover.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:29:16 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Incompetence is my point too.
Message:
thanks Joe
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 01:58:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: This is heavy!
Message:
Well, if it really happens 'more often than not' I'm moving to West Virginia, where it's safe.
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:12:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: This is heavy!
Message:
You're right-on with that one. Write a letter to the editor. The reporter is not wrong to say that it is also or mainly about power, and offer an explanation. But weilding power in a business postion, or political postion is different than sexually dominating someone by a long shot. Very tasteless perspective.

So how's the weather in Edmonton?

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 02:04:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I know! I know! (OT)
Message:
Deborah:

I just watched the World Track and Field Championships on TV, and the weather in Edmonton looked pretty good. Maurice Green came up lame in the 100M, but won anyway limping across the finish. Man, that guy's fast!

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 22:34:22 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: This is heavy!
Message:
thanks Deb. the weathers hot and sunny here. Really nice day. But I do hope that you got my point-if so disregard, but anyway, I really wanted to attack this issue of saying (in a way) This is the 'Hot new power attack-men raping that is'.) It's like the stupid fool reporter is just asking for other asshole(s) to pull the same shit. I think that kind of opinion should not be condoned?
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:41:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: This is heavy!
Message:
Yes Barry, I was agreeing with you to a degree. The 'effect' you are intuiting is because of the imbalanced (distorted)declaration and I agree that it can or will cause copycat crime.

However, the power-issue is a fact and that needs to be reported as well. It's a deeper level of understanding the crime. People cringe when they read stuff and the repulsion causes them to avoid understanding. That's Scott's point, I assume. Unfortunately, Words are double-edged swords.

Here's WHY I agree with you:

If you look at advertising directed at men, you will notice that the image is usually triangular, in other words 'Power', climbing up to the top. Hierarchy, etc. Now the colours are usually dark, Blacks, Browns, Reds, Navy Blue (depending on the demographics and type of product.

Let's take a car advertisement. The words (in male directed ads)will always boast about how Speed, Handling, POWER, Extras etc. This is no coincidence.

Same car targeted for women. Design tends to be amorphous. Soft pastels or silvery in colour. Dreamy texture. Words to describe the car: Reliable, dependant, security, (interesting?)

So, using the POWER word is very dangerous. Especially leaving a word like that dangling in the article without proper discussion is irresponsible and I think you should tell them so.

People need discussion and balanced explanations.
Do some research and write a letter to the editor. I'm sure a lot of other men and women feel or felt the same way you do and did when they read the article. It made you feel uneasy for a good reason.

See ya buddy

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:33:36 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Wow! excellent reply!
Message:
Very clear to me now Deb, I mean it! that did it for me. you are a very intteligent lady for true thankyou.

i myself can not spell worth a bean etc..etc..but thats another story!
see you!

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:23:05 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Help: EV/Visions is harrassing me!
Message:
I received the August Catalog. My mind is being harrassed! LOL. Why are they sending me still the catalog when on the phone I requested many months a go to be removed from their mailing list? I say: To get me in it again. To hope IT touches 'my heart'.

Below quotes of maharaji at different sections of the HUGE catalog they now send.

'To receive THAT gift in your life is the greatest honor. Is the greatest reward. It is the greatest medal.To accept that Knowledge and to practice that Knowledge in your life is the greatest achievement that a human being can ever have.' Maharaji. Excerpt from Nottingham Closing Event.

'To Go within is the greates pilgrimage that you will ever make.' France, Versailles, May 27th, 2001.

To recognize my Master takes effort every day. Every day. It's not a simple thing. Believe me, it is not a simple thing. It is more delicate than any love you have ever felt.' Versailles, same day.

Thre is more, I hope I had the time to post them all...

What is going on here?

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:15:22 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: Help: EV/Visions is harrassing me!
Message:
Oh yea!
'To Go within is the greates pilgrimage that you will ever make.'

I can think of a pilgrimage I'd like to make, but it's illegal.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:25:31 (EDT)
From: sILVIA
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Message:
LETS BRAKE THE LAW: LETS GO TOGETHER! nO, TOO MUCH PROTECTION

I want a one on one 'thing'.

lol

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 08:27:57 (EDT)
From: Bob o
Email: bob_s_32792@yahoo.com
To: sILVIA
Subject: Re: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
Message:
what is you talking about??
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:05:37 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Bob o
Subject: visiting
Message:
malibu
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:44:40 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: sILVIA
Subject: Remake of Thelma and Louise
Message:
Ahh, Hi Silvia,

I owe that fucker NOTHING. No respect. NOTHING. He owes me big time.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:40:16 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: the wristwatch costs $525
Message:
don't see any gold Rolexes with diamonds, however. darn!
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:24:13 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Bone China Cup costs only 39 plus shipping
Message:
That is a total bargain! Imagine, drinking your coffe every morning longing for your master, you dog! How incredible and sweet! uuuuuu

Of course, another choice is the pen: Only $85!!! You can write all the checks you want and remembering him...he must have one identical! uuuuu

There is nothing like being in touch with your hearts, how many do you have BTW? There is the heart of matters and is money. Daddy has to buY Durga another Mercedes to shut HER...oh, sorry...I'm dreaming again...

so nice to receive the DIVINE catalog to remind US how incredible special WE ARE: He will never, never abandon me... the creep!

Anyway, thanks for your bargain appreciation. I hope we can talk about this again. We are truly so, so special and the world is missing it! hahahahaha...who cares about 'THEM': 'We' have our little satellite cult and a NASTER! rIGHT?

ARF!lol

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 12:54:06 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: any coffee mugs?
Message:
Hey it's entertainmenet value at least.
Talk to you in a few days Silvia. I'm (tryint) to get out of this heat for a while.
Love, Selene
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 13:37:10 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Have a good vacation!
Message:
if you leave. I read you want to go somewhere. Do it!

I'll call you one of these days. Have fun!:)

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:25:37 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: HE SELLS HIS PHOTOS TOO!
Message:
5'BY7' $6
wALLET (LOL-PUT'EM IN YOUR WALLET BABY, ADORE HIM) 43

ADORE THE IDOL: IS NOT ABOUT YOU AFTER ALL!!

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 18:32:45 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: psst...you wan some feelthy pictures? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:58:04 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: HE SELLS HIS PHOTOS TOO!
Message:
Hi Silvia,

When I got sick of receiving the ''doo-dad'' catalogues, I emailed them with this message: ''Please remove me from your mailing list. I no longer wish to receive it, and you should know you're in a cult.''

The email answer I got was this: ''You are removed.''

LOLOL! I was removed! I loved it.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 21:01:17 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: more hahahahhaha
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I wonder why they send me the catalogue STILL. Haven't I said enough?

Is a waste of trees, well, what the greedy guru cares about the enviroment, right? ...bussiness first...

Just in case one of his photos capture me again? yuck! I hate his face. It gives me the creeps...

Thanks for the advice.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:50:18 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: All
Subject: So what's the status?
Message:
Rawat has been touring Europe. The ex-premie forum 'evolved'. It ain't so came and went. EV is spinning legal about Jagdeo. Everyday people testify about the suffering they have endured or the demons they are still fighting. A small group of renegade premies is showing off the worst side of being human. Maharajji is and was way too insignificant for any media to pick up on for us very revealing and important information. he is 'expanding' as an insomniac salesman. etc etc.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:09:10 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Bobo! Are you by chance...
Message:
canadian, and did you tree plant with a guy named kent Skolos?
We knew a guy named Bobo a long while back. We gave him and his girlfriend a lift to LA. Are you him? long shot, but anyways?
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:09:05 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Bobo! Are you by chance...
Message:
canadian, and did you tree plant with a guy named kent Skolos?
We knew a guy named Bobo a long while back. We gave him and his girlfriend a lift to LA. Are you him? long shot, but anyways?
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 02:09:02 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Bobo! Are you by chance...
Message:
canadian, and did you tree plant with a guy named kent Skolos?
We knew a guy named Bobo a long while back. We gave him and his girlfriend a lift to LA. Are you him? long shot, but anyways?
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:36:06 (EDT)
From: REJOICE
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Isn't Patrick Halley Day this month? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:35:30 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: REJOICE
Subject: coming soon: Pat Halley's 3rd letter : The Finale
Message:
have to transcribe it. It's on top of my desk at the office right now.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:55:46 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Updated Journey on EPO (Hamzen)
Message:
Dedicated to Jethro (strange Hamzen omits the events in the early morning of his last visit to the Latvian club in London....;-))
[ Hamzen's Journey ]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 15:08:00 (EDT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Updated Journey on EPO (Hamzen)
Message:
Hi Hamzen,
great journey, many parallels, I've still got your thermos flask! Stay cool,
love Kelly
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 19:26:39 (EDT)
From: ham
Email: hamzen2001@yahoo.co.uk
To: Kelly
Subject: I've been meaning to e-mail ya?
Message:
You kept the flasks as well, you're a gem.

And then can I find your e-mail address, can I fuck, fancy sending us an e-mail at the above?

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:04:22 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I have questioned Hamzen the event
Message:
you describe and he denies all memory of it.

The rest of us must have imagined it!!!!!

Jethro

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:02:52 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks JHB
Message:
That was quick.

Afraid, there will be some additional text going onto that, but not for a while yet, apologies for the extra work etc.

And what's wrong with doing a jacvkson pollock over the carpet I wanna know, apart from not being the person who cleaned up the canvas!! Thanx jhb

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:09:12 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Thanks JHB
Message:
Ham,

Quick? My response was several days - you responded in minutes!

Don't worry about the extra work. Yours was the first I worked on, so I was feeling my way - I've got the hang of it now (I think!). BTW, The club is reopening at the end of August. I haven't seen it, but I believe they have new carpets:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 09:38:05 (EDT)
From: hammy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Under the same management?
Message:
Would you have access?

It was tyhe latvian pool that did me, a game made for stoners I reckon,

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:32:40 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: hammy
Subject: Re: Under the same management?
Message:
Yes and no - Aija, the manageress, was forced out by some idiots who had a grudge against her. I say idiots because they won't find anyone who'll put in the effort she did, but they have a new bar manager, a cousin of a friend of mine, and as he's OK, I hope his cousin's OK.

I would have access as I'm a life member of the organisation that owns the place, but my access is limited geographically:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:52:11 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann)
Message:
Marcelo has no regrets....
[ Marcelo's Journey ]
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 12:49:22 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann)
Message:
This crap is just satsang. Makes me sick to my stomach.
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 19:48:40 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Spinsang
Message:
This crap is just satsang. Makes me sick to my stomach.


---

Could be so Rick. He says ' within the lie ..the beauty remains'.

Va fan culo Marcello : Where'd you get that one ...low life Sicily?

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:41:49 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Evolving from brookside close!
Message:
(a rather sad soap on uk tv!)
It seems that some people are prefering to live still in the world of 'brookside close!
We have a choice after all.... stay hung up on all the terrible things that 'someone else' has inflicted on us, or yes feel those very real feelings... but then see the bigger picture!!!!
We're all capable of seeing it, just not if we've built some hideous huge wall, that we think will protect us somehow from the goblins in this world. LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL!!!!!!
How the fuck do you think this man exists doing his weird shit????
CAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME PUT THE SAD FUCK THERE!! (no this isn't hatred it's laughable!)
Don't you get it?????!!!!......Life is a learning process, eventually we will learn... actually maybe some of us will never learn!!!!
We need intense, often bad things to shift us !
SORRY LIKE(bit of a geordie phrase meaning sorry but not really!) all those that are so bitter, but the only person that bitterness and hatred will damage is yourself, I thought this was common knowledge amongst the more switched-on of this world. It just aint the way, it just doesn't work!!!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:22:09 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: some nice reflections from Marcelo
Message:
+ there is also the matter of m's and EVI's [aka DLM] full accountability, however -- for the sake of truth, justice, and all those trusting souls who have been/are/or might be harmfully affected.

I would also prefer not to sit in judgement, but shall leave that to the courts and to the processes of the universal energy.

Whatever has happened and/or may transpire, I have full confidence in this cosmos' universal laws of cause and effect, action and reaction, and perhaps karma -- that what goes around comes around, and that for every action there is an equal reaction.

We do reap what we have sown. May we therefore sow and reap bountiful fruits -- and share those fruits with our fellow human beings.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:25:22 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: for the sake of those
Message:
+ there is also the matter of m's and EVI's [aka DLM] full accountability, however -- for the sake of truth, justice, and all those trusting souls who have been/are/or might be harmfully affected or deceived.

I would also prefer not to sit in judgement, but shall leave that to the courts and to the processes of the universal energy.

Whatever has happened and/or may transpire, I have full confidence in this cosmos' universal laws of cause and effect, action and reaction, and perhaps karma -- that what goes around comes around, and that for every action there is an equal reaction.

We do reap what we have sown. May we therefore sow and reap bountiful fruits -- and share those fruits with our fellow human beings.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 11:40:18 (EDT)
From: ANNIE
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann)
Message:
the most RESPECT ever to this man, he is as clear as a cool crisp winter night, and so RIGHT-ON!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 10:53:43 (EDT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The ego trippin' Mahatma who gave K
Message:
That was Mahatma Vijaynand I believe...another to add to the list?
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:49:57 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann)
Message:
OH HOT DAMN--MARCELLO!! I MET HIM IN LOS ANGELES IN 1976! ARGENTINE. SON OF A PSYCHIATRIST. ARIES ALL TO HELL. HE DROVE ME BACK TO DENVER AFTER MY MOTHER DIED IN LOS ANGELES. HE WAS THE ONE WHO TOOK TO THE SPIRITUALIST MINISTER'S IN SOUTH DENVER, WHERE I FIRST FELT MY MOTHER'S PRESENCE, AFTER HER DEATH, AND I UNDERSTOOD FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT THERE IS AN AFTERLIFE, REGARDLESS OF OUR BELIEFS OR NOT!!

DID HE GIVE HIS EMAIL ADDRESS???

OH HOT DAMN

MARCELLLLOOOOOO.....IT'S ME-- JANET SCHWARTZ. WANNA TALK???

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 02:41:41 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: New Journey on EPO (Marcelo Bermann)
Message:
I remember Marcello as well. He was a friend of the couple in the Argyle who had a baby (or maybe he was the husband?), and was chummy with Valentine Vargas as well. I take issue with him about the suggestion that 'demonizing' Maharaji comes from the same place as worshipping him. Well maybe, but telling the truth about the guy is hardly demonizing him, nor is it prima facie evidence of an obsession. Anyway, Maharaji wasn't a cannibal. He was just a self centered megalomaniacal little poop. He's like that fat little cousin we all had who always drank out of the milk carton without telling anyone, raised to the level of a God Twerp. No, not a demon. Notatall.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:53:29 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Email address
Message:
His address is on his journey page.

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 08:19:07 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Email address
Message:
got it!
yeehaaa
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:09:57 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Abi, Susan....and Jim
Message:
Hi Abi

Just to let you know that not all premie males (not that you’ve said “all”) endorse the treatment that you’ve been getting from SC and co. I am sure that these commentators are in a miniscule minority and are probably not fathers themselves. Their views should not be taken as a consensus of premie opinion about the matter, they are just a small bunch of insensitive loudmouths who do themselves, premies in general and their “Lord” a HUGE disservice by hogging the air on these forums in such a despicable manner.

I have a daughter who is probably around the same age as you, she’s 30. She spent a good many years around DLM, EV personnel but, fortunately, was not subjected to the abuse that you and others were. I am always mindful of the fact that it could have been her instead of (or as well as) you. I am certain that other premie parents feel likewise.

I think that you and Susan have taken a really brave and effective stand on the Jagdeo matter and you should be assured that I and other premies support of you. Your efforts have at least got EV to recognise the issue and initiate some kind of action (hopefully effective) and I agree totally with the notion that you and other victims require some sort of public apology from Maharaji and EV rather than the “background” comments recently made by Linda Gross.

It totally amazes me that even from a “common sense” point of view that Maharaji’s PR people can’t grasp that the fact that the way this issue is being dealt with is a major liability to the Majharaji's “Mission” .

Mel ,
the non-doubter in the purity of the Master’s “knowledge”, but if the Master has a wart why be a denier of it’s existence

PS – to Jim,

You are obviously correct in your contention that Maharaji was in error for continuing to endorse known sexually abusive Mahatmas on an unsuspecting premie communities and, personally, this whole business sickens me.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 20:40:44 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: To Abi, Susan....and Jim
Message:
Thanks for yout support and it is a relief to know that not all premies are heartless. I just wish that Maharaji or the EV hierarchy would do the right thing re the Jahdeo issue. The longer it goes on the worse it seems to get.

Take care

Abi

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 15:29:59 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, how do you separte M&K?
Message:
Hey Mel-

Thanks for an honest, above board repsonse from a premie on the epo site.
That takes guts.
I know what it's like to be a premie...I was one for 28 years, until I 'saw the light' in a way that is probably totally different than most premies would take it.

I'm not going to be presumptuous enough to think I can or should try to talk you out of your position with maharaji and practicing knowledge.
That's your business, and my position is my business....

BUT, here's my question for you and other premies, especially the ones who want to help maharaji in his work, which as we all know, is spreading knowledge.

HOW do you do it?
HOW do you go out and tell people, 'Well, we have this perfect knowledge, but don't worry about our quite imperfect master'.
Even though maharaji says that they are inextricably intertwined (you don't get one without the other...you need both....no knowledge without the master....no one comes home without the master...etc), how do you then bridge that gap between the perfect experience that you claim he gives,(and you nedd him for) and him?
When it becomes obvious that maharaji lies and manipulates his own followers, and this is totally provable, how do you tell the new people that he doesn't?
Or how do you tell the new people that they just shouldn't think about it?

That's the part I have a problem with...

And here's why I think premies go along with this stuff.....

Premies turn a blind eye towards maharaji because they simply cannot afford to see through him.
They have become so deeply conditioned to believe in him and depend on him, that their lives would be incredibly confused if the man they believe is their anchor, the guy who is really clear (and not drowning in the ocean of maya), turns out to be someone is quite insecure, confused, addicted, and doesn't even practice what he preaches, on many levels.

Many premies have given so much of themselves to maharaji, by taking his agya quite literally (in the giving up of their lives totally to him, especially those in the ashram), that they have very little of a life for themselves.
They desparately need to believe in him, and see him constantly.
He reinforces this, and encourages this.

Here's why this won't work....

Although premies will inevitably find a reason to absolve maharaji from any criticism (because they cannot afford to see him in any other light), when new people (who have no vested interest in maharaji or knowledge at this point) see this sort of intellectual and moral laziness and denial, it will throw up a red flag that is undeniable.
The premies denial, and refusal to evaluate maharajis words and actions in a common sense way will speak volumes to their already doubting minds.
And they are entirely right to doubt.
Their very real questions will never be honestly answered, as that would undermine their trust in the 'master'.
And these actions on the part of both maharaji and the premies will only reinforce those doubts and hesitations they have.

Combine that with a trip around the EPO site, and there goes your propagation, AND sadly, there goes your reputation with those people that you are closest to in your community.(the ones you are likely to bring to an intro program...friends, co-workers, family, neighbors etc..)

Isn't it ironic that the man who used to say that 'man is cutting off the same branch he is sitting on', is doing that exact same thing to himself?(and the people he professes to love 'more dearly than life itself').
The premies, by their silence, are all in danger of having his denial, coupled with their refusal to face the truth, cut off their own branch as well.

One big difference is that maharaji will probably remain rich throughout it, and then partially retire, while inventing new history to manipulate things further, and clear his name by blaming all the defamatory stuff on premies, mahatmas, EV, the press etc..

The poor premie, trying to serve his master and doing some altruistic deed, gets screwed.
And in their case, that can easily mean public embarrassment, possibly detrimental effects to their professional/work experience, and being the target of a lot of strange looks from the people they attempt to bring in, although those 'looks' generally will not be shown, but just remembered while that person takes one giant step away from the premie.

Does any of this ring true, Mel?

I'm really just trying to point out the obvious...actually something that would HELP the premies, and maharaji himself....

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:41:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Great post, La-ex ... bUUUUuuuttt
Message:
How does it take guts for a premie to post anything anonymously?
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:08:58 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: It depends which kind of premie, Jim...
Message:
For the kind of premie who believe M is still yet omniscience AND omnipotent - bicycle road-kill notwithstanding (and from reading Lifes Great [sic], it is clear such a species is still extant albeit in dwindling numbers) - it probably would take some courage to post here as Mel has done.

But fair point, Jim, though kudos to Mel anyway for posting this. At least that other kind of premie will also be reading and probably admiring Mel's guts for taking a stand. The other kind of Master (omisicient and omnipotent) would have zapped Mr Bourne with a thunderbolt by now.

Perhaps he has. Will we ever know?

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:43:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Good point, Nige
Message:
You're right. Omnipotent gurus. I forgot.
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 17:01:32 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: the 'non doubter' line needs a review Mel.. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 16:41:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Time to connect the dots, Mel?
Message:
PS – to Jim,

You are obviously correct in your contention that Maharaji was in error for continuing to endorse known sexually abusive Mahatmas on an unsuspecting premie communities and, personally, this whole business sickens me.

What a relief your post is compared to that of your fellow premies. However, your speculation that guys like SC are just a 'miniscule minority' might not be accurate. After all, aren't they just reflecting the same hostility EV itself has demonstrated towards Abi and Susan in its latest press release? Here, let's take a look:

Conflicting and spurious allegations regarding the alleged incidents of sexual abuse have been posted anonymously on the Internet and EVI is concerned to set the record straight. We make the following points:

'Spurious'? That's like 'lying' right? Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay, somewhere following we should be looking for some lies, right? Right.

Neither alleged victims has ever taken law enforcement or legal action over the alleged childhood incidents.

Well, that's not exactly accurate, is it? Didn't Susan say somewhere that she'd contacted the cops in Florida, where she was assaulted? I mean, we all know that a historic sex assault concerning an old man somewhere in the Indian subcontinent and a complainant that's also outside the jurisdiction is not exactly going to register a lot of interest but EV makes the falacious point nonetheless. It's not true but, no that's not the lie they're referring to.

Both alleged victims claim to have previously notified EVI about the incident. Our inquiry determined that these claims were unfounded.

Oh here we are! Both Abi and Susan are liars now. That is, according to EVI, they are. I'm sorry, what again was the point of this lawsuit they've launched? I'm getting confused ....

The second alleged victim detailed psychological difficulties encountered as a result of the alleged abuse. Although under no legal obligation to do so, EVI responded immediately with an offer of help, including payment for professional counseling of the person’s choice. This offer was rejected. The person then demanded a large amount of cash, public apologies from persons uninvolved with the episode, and, finally, that EVI buy her a house. Later, the person’s attorney told EVI that the organization would have to pay dearly to buy the alleged victim’s silence. We found these actions disconcerting. Subsequently, EVI learned that the person had been simultaneously negotiating with the producers of Australian television’s “Sixty Minutes” to broadcast the story, who apparently turned it down. The person then began negotiating with the French Communist magazine “Combat Face Au Sida,” which advocates actions based on the recently passed “About-Picard” law. This law, which is considered to restrict freedom of thought, conscience and religion in France, has been strongly criticized by the US State Department, members of the United States Congress as well as by civil rights leaders worldwide. According to the Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, the law ” goes against freedom of association, expression, religion and conscience; it imperils the rights of minorities and creates prejudices incompatible with the notion of tolerance intrinsic to human rights.”

Well, there's a lot here. None of it looks too nice for Ms. Second 'Alleged' Victim. After first calling her a liar, EV's now calling Abi a rank opportunist. She has the audacity to insist on a public apology from someone 'uninvolved' (hey, good word!) in the matter and we all know who that is. Worse, she's trying to simply blackmail the good ship EVI, the good and generous ship, EVI, the good, clean and generous ship, EVI, all under the guise of settlement discussions. Never mind the fact that EVI approached her and asked her, in supposedly private discussions, what she thought she deserved given the harm she suffered. You and I both know that there's a good reason the courts award substantial compensatory damages in these affairs. They reflect the very real, long-term injury victims sometimes suffer in these matters. And we don't know if indeed Abi asked for any of what EV's saying she did. We certainly don't know how she said what or in what context. All we have is EV's callous and cruel broadcasting of their version of these supposedly confidential discussions. Abi never publicized them, EV did. And to what end? Just one: to assassinate her character and divert any sympathy she might otherwise deserve. EV's trying to get full credit for 'launching a lawsuit' -- look at that, a real live press release and everything! -- but in the same breath they're trying to shake Abi off like she's something nasty stuck to their shoe. Indeed, all that other stuff about her own alleged efforts to do her own 'press release' is, I understand, largely inaccurate. But, whether it is or not, it's clearly mentioned to depict her as some sort of rabid stalker of the good ship EVI.

EVI spokesperson, Linda Gross, said that even after DUO had indicated that, to the best of its knowledge, Upadhaya was living in Buxar in the Indian State of Bihar, the alleged victims continued to make false and conflicting claims that DUO was harboring Upadhaya and had not revealed his whereabouts.

How exactly did DUO indicate anything to Abi? And, sorry to be rude to EVI, but how did they prove it? And where now did Abi make these 'false and conflicting claims'? I recall a number of people, perhaps Abi among them, discussing various leads and theories as to where Jagdeo was. My sense of the discussions was that no one knew jsut what to think. Surely these weren't the 'false and conflicting claims', were they? And surely they don't all fall at Abi's feet even if they were?

“Any statement that EVI harbored this man, and innuendo that EVI knew of and ignored the allegations of sexual misconduct are flatly false and defamatory. It is just not true,” Ms Gross said.

Okay, so there it is. The good ship EVI has been broadsided by Abi, the great white shark. She's defamed them, stalked them, lied to them, slapped away their generous hand and conducted herself deceitfully, insincerely and without principle. And you say what? That SC et al. are a 'miniscule minority'? Wishful thinking, Mel. Hate to say it, but these guys, like Glasser, whose site in all its ugliness was endorsed with the cult imprimatur, being advertised, as it were, on ELK, are not flying any pirate flag. That's a beautiful swan logo you see up there on their mast, Mel.

Furthermore, you know as well as I do that all of this nastiness is condoned if not inspired, even directed perhaps, by Maharaji himself. Not a leaf moves, Mel ... Certianly not these kinds of leaves.

So what of it?

******************

But back to yur original point quoted above, what about the fact that Maharaji compromised premies' safety in general for his own selfish interests? You know, it sounds like Maharaji was really juggling a few things back then. On the one hand, he had this bank of Holy Men, living Saints, for God's sake, shaved, robed and trained to roam the planet, pretending that they were themselves God realized (and thus proof that Knowledge really 'works') and pretending, as well, that they had, as a result, the heightened spiritual perception to be able to recognize that Maharaji himself was God in human form. On the other hand, they couldn't keep their dicks in their dhotis. Worse, he had this big public relations nightmare with his family. How could he dare alienate any of his saints by reigning them in too hard if it just sent them flying into the enemy camp? Tough choices all round, I'm sure. He really has my sympathies.

The problem, though, Mel, is that he tricked every last one of us into thinking that we could trust him with every last fibre of our being. Leave no room for doubt. Remember that one? Maharaji tricked us into thinking that he and he alone was looking after us every moment of our lives and then some. Our families? Naw, they ain't nothing. Maharaji was our father. He was the one who'd stopped the bombs. He was the one who'd taken us into the land of love, not fear, true, spiritual, blissful, unconditional love. He was the one, He was the one, He was the one!

And meanwhile, these very human Indian guys were out raping, molesting, seducing all these premie women, not to mention children.

So good for you, Mel, in being able to say as much as you have. Yes, I agree. Maharaji was indeed 'in error'. In fact, he was in gross error. He acted like a scoundrel in the circumstances. In so-called spiritual matters, as he always explained, we were blind. He was our eyes. He was our cane. We had to trust him implicitly. Did he deserve that trust? Does he now? And, Mel, whatever you think, can you tell him to his face? Does he even give a flying fuck what you think? Really?

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 14:53:48 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: thank you Mel
Message:
I consider you to be a good person, and I appreciate your posting this. I do not think all premies are cruel like the ones we see posting these hatelful things, or whomever dreamed up the attack on Abi on the EV website, though surely that could not have been the work of one individual, and just as surely, it is in Maharaji's power to oversee all that gets posted on the website or to have it removed.
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 11:07:51 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: To Abi, Susan....and Jim
Message:
Mel,
Many premies feel as you do and we are listening to those that say quit sending Elan Vital money, contributions, fundraising and especially monthly donations. Instead, send them a note that states why you won't be giving them anymore money until they deal with this situation honorably, legally, and morally-and not their current morals. I'm hearing enough talk to know that newcomers and oldtimers are repulsed and disgusted by this entire scenario. They are amazed at Abi, Susan's and the other's courage, they want to know if they are okay, nearly throw up when they hear about the others and are seriously thinking twice about what kind of organization Elan Vital is and what kind of 'master' Maharaji is that he is not personally handling this. So spread the word-NO MORE MONEY.
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:17:53 (EDT)
From: Deja View
Email: None
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: Re: To Abi, Susan....and Jim
Message:
The sociologist in me finds it extremely interesting that you guys are slowly but surely setting the stage for blaming E.V. for all of this. You're not quite there yet, since you inevitably ascribe at least a little responsibility to M. himself, but you're workin' on it. Not hard to see who'll get the bill, eventually.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 10:37:39 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deja View
Subject: EV=M
Message:
The idea that EV and M are seperate entities is purely a form of legal teflon for the guru. I think the Teflon will turn out to be more like a glue strip frankly. I blame Jagdeo first. I do also blame the cult ( m and the cult in my mind being entirely enmeshed ) for sending him around the world. I did report it as described when I described.
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 18:42:43 (EDT)
From: DEborah
Email: None
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: BTDT--Thank you for reporting that
Message:
What a wonderful and refreshing bit of news to read. Please thank all of them from friends of ABI at the EPO for their wise and humanistic concern. And mostly for their pro-active response to this crime.

I am so happy and relieved to know that people's conscience is speaking louder than the deception of the Maha organization.

Hey you premies out their with brains and big hearts, I do miss you. I had a lot of good times, really I did. It was the beauty of the premies that attracted me to Knowledge and it's your beauty that will make everything right one day. I thank you with all my heart.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 06:44:01 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: But it doesn't come from nowhere Mel
Message:
That whole culture of abuse starts right at the top.

From the abuse of ashram premies mahatmas and any close pam he has always used verbakl abuse, bullying, and ladening on th guilt.

Remember he is also the one picking up blonde female premies, or rather getting the honchos to do it for him.

This is what happens in org's with just one source of control & power. There are no checks on HIS power, so anyone involved at that level gets sucked into the monkey see, monkey do syndrome.
When the mahatmas also know they'd be spirited out of the country rather than face prosecution, the only check is fear of gm's wrath. That must stop some stuff, but if you've already got a problem, you're in absolutely the right environment for getting away with it.

Just basic organizational analysis.

As for your comments re gm, quite courageous of you to have such thoughts, but you are quite rare amongst premies. Most, even if sickened by this stuff, switch off, because they either can't cope with thinking 'negative thoughts' about gm/ev, or that gm is an 'untouchable', beyond all criticism. Lila has a lot to answer for.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 00:38:48 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Iron in the Soul
Message:
It's actually quite disturbing to many that in the eyes of EV and M's internet spin artists, the victims of Jagdeo's horrifying abuse are somehow not victims at all, but they've become instead trading cards in a PR game that can be viewed with deserved skepticism and even cynicism, as Maharaji covering his ass by trashing those who have been hurt the most in this sordid affair.

Closing one's eyes to the true nature of evil is certainly nothing new in the world of bullshit intellectuals. In that sense, someone like Richard II should know that he doesn't stand alone. It is in fact the kind of denial Jean-Paul Sartre, author of the classic existential novel Iron in the Soul, made famous.
Confronted with hard evidence of the evils of Stalinism, Sartre and his partner in crime, Simone de Beauvoir, were unrelenting supporters of the communist regime, and remained so until uncontrovertible evidence risked turning their reputations as champions of freedom into self-mockery.

Yet revisionism and denial did not die with Sartre and De Beauvoir. They live on in myriad incarnations all around us, and here on thre ex-premie forum in the likes of Richard II, Bjorn, Catweasle, etc.,anonymous trolls or ghosts as you like, but each actually revealing in his/her own way, how knowledge and devotion to m may be more a matter of 'iron in the soul' than it is of 'that feeling, that peace, that love'
With each act of denial and obfuscation of the issues, these people who so willingly reduce themseves to the ridiculous status of anonymous cartoon characters, seem to remain blissfully unaware that through their use of exculpatory language and callow justifications, they give succor not only to Maharaji and Jagdeo, but to sexual offenders everywhere.

All this, in spite of the fact, as Jim put it:
Maharaji most certainly compromised the security of premies and their children by dealing secretly with every Mahatma sex scandal as it arose. Rather than admit that these guys were just regular human beings and not to be trusted any more than anyone else, he lead us to believe that they were 'holy men' or 'saints'. Their mystique heightened like this, he could count on major support from them for his own mystique as Lord. This is obvious and borne out by the historical record. There is no denying it.

Now it's quite obvious that if a premie like Richard II for example, who actually seems quite intelligent and bright (if not utterly twisted), seemingly representative of Maharaji's bullshit intelligentsia (even though it's understandable that Maharaji mentioned in the same breath as 'intelligentsia' sounds completely oxymoronic)...if he can't accept the obviousness of Jim's statement, then we might want to examine-what exactly is Richard II's problem?

British historian Paul Johnson, who wrote a scathing examination of the private lives of celebrated intellectuals, has shown that certain members of a society's intelligentsia, whose prime motivation is either ego gratification or self-publicity will take stands that vitiate against both logic and their own principles in orger to advance their socio-economic status. But the level of cognitive dissonance necessary to bury one's conscience so completely must require something more. Of course in the case of someone like Richard II, we know what that 'something more' is- a cultic sense of devotion to maharaji and knowledge. Hence, he chooses the role of Maharaji apologist for himself.

Now if we were to look for a moment at the way in which the Hitler and Stalin apologists for example, who were prominent thinkers, leaders and champions of freedom in their own societies, remained so unmoved by mounting evidence of concentration camps and forced labor gangs, we can see one of history's more egregious examples of moral blindness
What's truly amazing is that Maharaji's apologists have attempted to raise that brand of denial to a current level of acceptability. Again, all one has to do is witness their inability to accept certain basics in the situation, the kind of basics contained in Jim's statement that I've already quoted.

But is this repeated incidence of premie self-delusion an example of a career premie's attempt to advance his/her status with m and within his cult? It obviously isn't self publicity since whoever he is, he's choosing to post anonymously.

OR, is it just plain heartlessness?
Whatever the answer, it seems that m's legacy of abuse continues to unfold. This may be the time for any premie who still considers him/herself a thinking and caring person to question whether m's poisoned nipples are worthy of being sucked on till your last breath?

If the answer to that question is yes, you may want to check your spiritual barometer for a malignant condition that should be recognized, unmistakably, not as knowledge...but as, iron in the soul.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 13:48:33 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** Bravo! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 13:55:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: I agree wholeheartedly
Message:
Hi Francesca,

I also agree with you about focusing on the good stuff on the forum and what we don't need to be doing with our time, i.e. arguing with disruptive trolls.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 02:33:19 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Rusted, pitted, battered & friable
Message:
Excellent post Joey.

What we are seeing being played out in all this is the venal underside of human nature, a morally bankrupt and cynical abuse of persons and resources for the self-aggrandizement and enrichment of an irresponsible phantom convinced he is above common decency, common sense and fundamental justice.

We could go on and on with scathing terms for the fraudmeister and his nonsense, but the compelling drama will be in how he dances to try to escape the results of his actions. If karmic law has any validity, then this is impossible. Results will always follow. If actions are corrupt, contemptible and concealed, then what will follow? Godly eternal wisdom and bliss? 'Love'? I don't think so.

This M&K phenomena is extremely instructive, however. Cults abound. This drama is similar to many others, and is probably the playing out of an age-old archetype: Pride goeth before a fall. Hubris creates its own doom. That's karmic law. We may live to see it and learn from it. There may be in us all a seed-tendency or something similar to M's exaggerated delusions and ego, regrettably. May we be purged of it.

Best,
Carl

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 01:28:57 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: precisely, Joey! [good reading] [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 22:51:06 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Promotion! (ot)
Message:
Hey everyone! I'm just so dam happy right now. today i got promoted from ladies shoes into full time electronics and furniture. my girlfriend and I are happy as two worms in a test tube! It's so great when you go from food banking and the welfare to condos and cash! i'm not sayen money is the reason for anyones happiness, but man! Our lives have gone up into a new level of happiness and freedom. I don't know if anyone knows this but we kind of moved the Big edmonton on a wing and a rumour. we liquidated most all our shit (and I do mean shit!) and drove the crap Huindi out here on candle wishes and cheap gas. everything is going so well. you know sometimes you can feel like such a waste of space, and other times..well, you just feel like saying hi to every sad sack you meet...and telling them, hey! It's all going to get better! thanks for letting me sap out. later
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 23:29:24 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: that's sweet thanks
Message:
Makes me appreciate my (ahem) DOS Programmer job whatever the hell that would be. b)

Best to you. I've enjoyed talking with you and all.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:17:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: May I reiterate this point?
Message:
I think this is important so I'll say it again. Maharaji most certainly compromised the security of premies and their children by dealing secretly with every Mahatma sex scandal as it arose. Rather than admit that these guys were just regular human beings and not to be trusted any more than anyone else, he lead us to believe that they were 'holy men' or 'saints'. Their mystique heightened like this, he could count on major support from them for his own mystique as Lord. This is obvious and borne out by the historical record. There is no denying it.

So look at the kind of shit that happened? Trebinanand sexually assaulted a girl and Maharaji quietly slapped his wrist for it. Soon after, Trebinanand's sent back out on the road as Maharaji's 'saint' and, with all the undue trust and respect accruing to one of such lofty spiritual purity, he's free to roam again. No warnings, no nothing. So what does he do? Rapes a girl in Regina, Saskatchewan. She flips out, thinks that this means that Maharaji's 'married' her somehow, carves a circle in her forehead and is institutionalized.

What sayest thou, premies?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 21:47:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something?
Message:
In a discussion with Cosmic Traveller on LG I just realized something relevant to this issue of whether or not Maharaji compromised premies' safety by not only continuing to promulgate the mahatma myth when he knew that these guys were far from pure and were in fact capable of sexual predation but by even sending actual busted offenders back out on tour after only secretly dealing with their transgressions. I was talking about Tejeshwaranand, who, as I mentioned earlier, actually converted one of the Vancouver ashrams into his harem, seducing not one but several 'sisters' on the basis that sex with him was a step towards 'realizing Knowledge'. Then I seemed to remember that Tej was only sent to Vancouver and asked to stay there for a while after he'd done something 'wrong'. My memory's shaky on this but I seem to remember some whispered, dark secret that he'd gotten in trouble with some girl in the states, maybe knocked her up or something. Mike, could you ask Gary about this? What does he remember?

And how about you yourself, Mike? I think you've spoken about this before but I can't remember just what you said. Was there not a policy to do major hush-hush damage control whenever a mahatma forgot his role as an ascetic renunciate who'd given his body, mind and soul to the living Lord? And if that's the case, surely Maharaji was behind this policy, wasn't he? In retrospect, therefore, would you not agree that Maharaji protected his image instead of his premies?

It's like the tobacco companies suppressing scientific knowledge about the risks of smoking. Maharaji suppressed knowledge about the risks of trusting mahatmas. Clearly.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 07:13:47 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something?
Message:
Jim,

Read Marcelo's journey - he doesn't mention the Mahatamas name but the story sounds the same. I don't know if knows anything more, but maybe he would be more forthcoming if you email him. In fact I'll email him.

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 05:49:17 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sometime last year
Message:
there was a premie of bbj(satpal) posting here.
I asked him what happened to Vedpraktanand, who was sent back to india circa 94/5 for sexual misconduct by m and later joined bbj's side.

Anyway I asked this bbj-premie what happened to vedp and he answered that 'all is forgiven in the ashram'and that Vedp is now travelling India teaching the shastras(Hindu scritures). And that all the person had to say.

The key words here are 'all is forgiven in the ashram'. Mahatmas etc can do no wrong. So if they do APPEAR to, it must something beyond our understanding(lila).

Personally I believe that m and pams knew loads of stuff that he's not letting in about.
With m's philosophy there is no conscience or 'values'.

Talk about the blind leading the blind.

jethro

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 23:43:32 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something?
Message:
jim, you are correct in the bottom line re whose interest m was protecting and interested in...alway, first and last himself in everthing he did/does..always.

many of the mahatmas who where busted for sexual activities in the early days were during the time of the 'holy family' drama. m always perceive a risk that they would swing to mata ji or bbj or ? if he was too heavy on them...so often, they would be brought before m in denver or malibu or whereever and sat around for days or weeks and final got broungt before m and scolded, told to sit around some more and perhaps do 'meanial service' and usually sent back into the field. sometimes, in the extreme or usually if a second incident was reported they were sent to india and sampuranand was to deal with them...not sure what happened there.

there was never much of a system to check up on the mahatmas and the culture was to give them the benefit of the doubt if there was one. the quality control was hopeless, training was non-existant. usually m himself would blame others as is his manner...blame mata ji for picking or sending them to the west...or the sisters in the west for being too loose and free...or anyone he could but take responsibility himself..often presenting himself as a victim in the holy family struggle and his hand were tied etc. so mch for the strong, commanding lord of lord....that was only his stage persona at best.

there were many mahatmas involved in sexual misconduct...ted, parlokanand, rajaswaranand...many names the excape my senior brain...probably 10 at least...and of course a few western instructors...who he dealt with more swiftly usually...with more control...unless they were somehow his favorites of those who were 'politically' sensitive to some national situation...ie julien west due to her father abbry west...or like that. and certanly other significant misbehaviour...for example the spending on clothing by many of the better known instructors was tolerated and joked about...joan apter is a good example of one who could go through serious money while on tour...and the list goes on. no surprises here as the exploits of this travelling road show was well known...grumbled about locally, occasionally reported nationally and nothing really done..no standards set, no real training or re-training...all the instructor conferences were nothing but endless 'satsang' waiting for m to show up for an hour here and there to lecture us to be more devoted, to inspire more devotion..to demand more devotion etc.

but, nothing new or revealing here really. typically, the instructors mostly modelled m...his clothing and spending, his tirads and demands like that.

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 13:56:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** and good thread
Message:
Thanks Mike and Jim:

I've already seen several good things in this thread and will keep reading. This is the kind of stuff I come here for, not the endless bickering with trolls.

Love, Francesca

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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 00:08:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Just got off my bike. 30 minutes today. Gave me a chance to read some more 'Cocksure' by Mordechai Richler.

Yes, you're right, nothing new. What's important, though, is just this point that Maharaji knew these guys were fucking up sexually and never warned anyone. Can you imagine that scene in Vancouver with Tej? Have you ever asked Gary about it? If I'm right in my fleeting memory on this, Tej gets sent there after some sexual transgression. But somehow, maybe because Gary didn't really know, or maybe because he was ordered to stay mum about it or maybe just because we were so goddamned confused, Tej is allowed to set up this little 1,001 Arabian Nights scene.

Ask Gary about Idene. She was one of the women. Married at the time to Mike Klapper, a doctor who, I understand, since made something of himself as a wholistic lecturer and writer, Idene was just your typical, 'householder' community premie. Until Tej got her, that is. On the pretense of seeing some great potential for immediate spiritual awakening in her, he 'took her under his wing', along with a few others, and, lo and behold, she quickly 'realized Knowledge'! The whole community sat rapt in satsang night after night as she described the miracle. Yes, she explained, she could finally see Maharaji in everything. Then, satsang over, Idene, Linda, Kathy, they'd all go back with mahatma ji to his ashram next door. Can you imagine?

Me? I was so naive then I actually pranamed to mahatma ji himself a few times before heading off to work. No, really, I did. I was in my own 'Guru Maharaji's everywhere' phase, but playing it by the book.

And all along, mahatma ji's pompous travelling mate, Garnet Dupuis, a real life Pepe Le Pieux if there ever was one, was sitting around waiting for his shirts to get ironed thinking that he, and not some ordinary chick from tne community, was supposed to be realizing Knowledge. Garnet was asked to give satsang every night as well, wasn't he? He was travelling with Mahatma Ji, wasn't he? Yes, but he wasn't fucking him, unfortunately. Now was he?

It was during this time that we did that big program in Nelson. The ashram was that place that you and Gary took Laurie and me for dinner. Remember Gary's story about how Tej took a break from one of the three Knowledge sessions he gave that night, getting Gary to take his place showing light to people (over half saw Maharaji or other past Masters, i.e. people who never chose to be seen as leaders). Tej 'took rest' and knocked a sister up. Again, big secret.

This was also the period when one very confused Dave Wener hung himself because, believe it or not, he was starting to have doubts about Maharaji's divinity.

My point, anyway, is that it's impossible for anyone to say that Maharaji ever protected the premies. Impossible. Abi's case, while a particularly terrible one, is only one of many.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 23:51:01 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Re: Donner? Would you please ask Gary something?
Message:
and gurucharand of course..was sexually active
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Date: Sun, Aug 12, 2001 at 05:53:24 (EDT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: donner, was gurucharanand..
Message:
sexually active in the late 70s?
He stayed with us at Acton quite alot around 78 and 79, and seemed
to be living a celibate lifestyle....was he secretly bonking the sisters?
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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)
From: Mr D
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mr D
Subject: Or do they?
Message:
I dunno.



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