Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 18, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Barry -:- Jim! Hows the bike riding coming? OT( day 6?) -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:05:27 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Barry, why not just email? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:29:07 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: Barry, why not just email? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:35:40 (EDT)

Abi -:- Rawat should offer a public statement about Jagdeo -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:51:51 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Right on! NT -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 06:12:44 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- I second that completely (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:27:05 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Agreed -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 00:19:46 (EDT)

Joe -:- Reporter who covered M at Amherst - 1974 -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:15:38 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Is this for real? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:09:31 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Yes -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 12:18:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill-see if you can find -:- Mishler stuff from denver and miami [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 19:47:20 (EDT)

Jim -:- What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:04:05 (EDT)
__ SC -:- You've ONLY just discovered EXERCISE? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:30:35 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- true self sc? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 19:52:34 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:47:13 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:32:55 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:23:28 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:32:19 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:13:31 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh come on, Rick -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:34:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: heroin vs videos -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:39:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ zelda -:- Re: Oh come on, Rick -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:52:39 (EDT)

Joe -:- Who is this ex-premie? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:45:13 (EDT)

Joe -:- Questions for Premies.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:13:35 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- Re: Questions for Premies.... -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 14:23:55 (EDT)
__ __ magiclara -:- Re: Questions for Premies.... -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 15:30:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- Link?? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:16:26 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- I saw you ask this over in the monkey pit -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:56:17 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: I saw you ask this over in the monkey pit -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:17:27 (EDT)

Nigel -:- To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:22:51 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- me too...very creepy -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 22:41:02 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:39:13 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Yes I'm convinced it's not Bazza.. -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 20:43:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- To recap -- case for suspicion -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:27:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Clarification -- suspicion re Rob not virus [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:28:19 (EDT)
__ Ulf -:- Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:03:47 (EDT)
__ __ ulf -:- Forget above post , mistake. nt, -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:14:50 (EDT)
__ jANET -:- SIRCAM-VIRUS +WORM TIME BOMB -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 02:04:45 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- Re: SIRCAM-how it does it(in colors) -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 03:09:50 (EDT)
__ Jean-Micchel -:- I've also been contaminated -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:04:58 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- RTOOS: remove the offending operating system -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:07:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: RTOOS: remove the offending operating system -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:12:17 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:55:22 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- virus [was 'Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra'..'] -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:13:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: virus [was 'To 'honi' and 'Debra'..'] -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 15:54:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: virus [was 'To 'honi' and 'Debra'..'] -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:37:15 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Not from Barry Shaw -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:25:21 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: Not from Barry Shaw -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:23:59 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- So what can you do? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:57:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Not really -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:14:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Not really -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:02:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- If you're on a UVIC computer -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 20:34:19 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, Dave -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:58:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I am Rob -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:22:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That's the first PIC I've seen -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:00:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No you're not! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:36:57 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Barry is a premie? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:17:14 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Re: Barry is a premie? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:50:52 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- I got the same thing today -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:01:39 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- That's definitely a virus -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:42:59 (EDT)
__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Same thing showed up here -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:48:17 (EDT)

Bobo -:- THEORY:Art and religion-purpose? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 14:00:17 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- If only -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:21:41 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- All's I can say is thank god for DUO! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:53:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: unanious-i read the report -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 03:22:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Absolutely so -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:19:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Absolutely so -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:31:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like, duh! -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:54:16 (EDT)
__ __ Bobo -:- W're not dead yet -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:06:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Aahh, the Club of Rome, remember it well -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:27:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- hamzen -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:26:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Thanks for that Joe -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:24:12 (EDT)

Joe -:- Is Maharaji Annoying or Not? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:13:16 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Does a mobster own a car with a big trunk? [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 18:22:07 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Sorry, correct link is.... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:15:50 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- What noise annoys an oyster? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:28:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Boiling water?? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:39:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- a new tongue twister -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 08:11:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I'm not a sheet slitter -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:19:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Sheet slitter? How about a pheasant plucker? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 12:34:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- CQ, surely you remember the book... -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 13:55:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ thuchabanana -:- well, thuffering thuccotath -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:49:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Sheep sex chic? Sick! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:24:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Funny second time around -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:35:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ oops, meant to post to JOE -:- Funny second time around [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:37:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pearl Divers....n/t -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:38:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Maharaji is a champion annoyance -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:47:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Maharaji is a champion annoyance -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:44:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Premie Desperation -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:36:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- da Ayatollah Maharaji! hohoho -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:44:08 (EDT)

Joe -:- National Bits and Pieces (OT) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:59:37 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- He is no 'ex', just in DEEP denial -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:28:57 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: National Bits and Pieces (OT) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:22:31 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Don't you love Google? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:46:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Don't you love Google? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:40:07 (EDT)

a0aji -:- Inquiry: Status on Forum Development? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:05:00 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Inquiry: Status on Forum Development? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:15:19 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: Inquiry: Status on Forum Development? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 05:08:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Well, how much money DO you have? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:57:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Well, how much money DO you have? -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 15:55:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***EVERYONE PLEASE READ FOR COMMENT**** -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:38:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: ***EVERYONE PLEASE READ FOR COMMENT**** -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 23:35:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji [LONG POST] -:- Re: ***MY COMMENT**** -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 04:32:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- linear conference model -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 09:08:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS*** -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 13:27:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: ***YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS*** -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 16:15:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: ***YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS*** -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:02:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Closing down access is a no no..... -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:11:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Closing down access is a no no..... -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:53:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Thanks for the clarification .... -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:18:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Thanks for the clarification .... -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:38:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Closing down access is a no no..... -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 04:13:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The more I think of it, the better it looks -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:24:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- test - please disregard -:- Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 04:17:46 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Hitler Youth -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:27 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- Not taught to think, but 'taught to OBEY' -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:30:33 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- We were taught in small doses -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:02:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Revisionism is in small doses -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:52:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- pr man was: Goebbels Whittaker -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 20:56:45 (EDT)
__ Voyeur -:- Re: Hitler Youth -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 15:22:02 (EDT)
__ ham -:- Belief & confidence -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:26:26 (EDT)

Salam -:- It is ture? -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:55:35 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Are you kidding? -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:41:33 (EDT)
__ __ ham -:- Point of order Mr Joe -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:23:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Disagree -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:26:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Further point of order- I bet such farts a lot ;) -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:47:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Agreed -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:27:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- vegan + skim milk in chai -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:42:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- mares eat oats and cows eat oats -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:23:53 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- the more full filled, more farts -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:57:26 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I couldn't resist... -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:49:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- = da psychic humour network! [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:37:59 (EDT)

Deena -:- Hello to anyone who remembers me -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:30:22 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- Hi Deena!!! -:- Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:19:41 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Hello to anyone who remembers me -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:55:34 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Hey, Deena -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:38:43 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Hi Deena!!!! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:13:03 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- By the way: re Deena -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:15:02 (EDT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hello Deena! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:37:05 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- Hi Deena and Mickey [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:38:55 (EDT)
__ __ Deena -:- Re: Hello Deena! -:- Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 22:08:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Yo what up! -:- Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:14:23 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:05:27 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jim! Hows the bike riding coming? OT( day 6?)
Message:
and how are other things. yvonne and I are coming out for sure for the 7,8,9,10 of September. can't wait to play those drum pads etc...already bought the plain tickets. Lets jam hard and record it. won't get another chance for a while I think. Post back bud. Bar!
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:29:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, why not just email?
Message:
Worse, Bar, I've got a trial in the interior on the tenth, I think. Yeah, that's right. I think it's the tenth. Sucks, huh? I hardly ever do cases off the island but there it is. Shit.

Bike's fine. Day five.

We can at least hook up Friday, maybe Saturday though.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:35:40 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Barry, why not just email?
Message:
Fri or sat sounds awsome! ya bummer your off the island for the 10th I guess that means you have to prepare for the show over the weekend oh well-we'll hang at least one night though. Great!
Ps i know i should e mail but couldn't resist your OT anger! good to here your getten in shape bra! yvonne and I are almost yellow belts 1 more promotion class. I'll keep in touch about times and dates for the visit. later. let me know you got this with an (nt)
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:51:51 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Rawat should offer a public statement about Jagdeo
Message:
Dear All,

there is little doubt in my mind that what happend to me, my brothers, friends, and to Susan and the women she knew were not isolated incidents. That this is likely is horrific. Most psychological profiles of pedophiles describe compulsive and repeat offenders. So there are probably many children of premies out there is the world who have been sexually abused by Jagdeo.

If Elan Vital and Rawat really cared about premies why don't they address this with compassion and with courage. They should trace his activities since the 70s and contact all of the communities he passed through.

If they really do want to sue Jagdeo then they should call on all premies to come forward with information about his activities. And they should find him.

They could issue such a call on every EV website in the world and send messages first class to all the national contacts.

Rawat should come forward and address the issue and express some sort of public concern that the children of his sincere devotees where harmed by his Mahatma. This is the very least he should do. The very least...

Premies and ex-premies alike know who is in charge here. It is time for Rawat, as a human being, to take responsibility for what Jagdeo has done.

He told my father that Elan Vital will take care of it. I think that he should take care of it. He has been silent about this for far too long. It is time for Rawat to speak about Jagdeo.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 06:12:44 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Right on! NT
Message:
yes
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:27:05 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I second that completely (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 00:19:46 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Agreed
Message:
After posting for 8 months or so and exploring many aspects of M&K, I've concluded that all I want out of this is for M to take personal responsibility beginning with the abuse committed by Jagdeo and other people under M's direction.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:15:38 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Reporter who covered M at Amherst - 1974
Message:
Paper cut delivers divine payback
By Mark E. Vogler
Eagle-Tribune Writer

...My parents brought me up to respect other people's faith, no matter how strange. I usually do. But, on occasion, I've been known to crack a few jokes about the oddities of a religion. And on the way over to Methuen High with two other Eagle-Tribune reporters, I tried to be funny about faith.

Now, I'm convinced that the freakish paper cut was divine payback. I believe that because of other strange things that have happened to me in the past while covering religious events.

For instance, there was a classic one in 1974 when I was working part-time at the Springfield newspaper while a student at the University of Massachusetts Amherst.

Another student who was doing campus radio teamed up with me to report on the Maharaji and his Divine Light Mission's weekend visit to UMass.

We found out that the India-born guru and his entourage were living it up at a Northampton hotel, maintaining a well-stocked bar and smokes, which was inconsistent with the wholesome lifestyle he was trying to present to his followers.

After an overnight reporting expedition, we decided to follow the Maharaji's motorcade back to UMass. The campus radio reporter cut into the motorcade, angering the goons who were trying to box us out. We had a fun time and joked about the Maharaji's followers, who lined up to kiss his feet.

The last laugh was at our expense.

We left the motorcade somewhere in Hadley.The radio announcer's car conked out. When he flipped open the car's hood, a rat jumped right out of the engine area.

Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut when it comes to other peoples' faith. You may have to answer to a higher authority.

Read Sherry Wood's column in this space Thursday. Mark E. Vogler's next column will run Friday. You can contact him by phone at 685-1000, by mail at Box 100, Lawrence, MA 01842 or by e-mail him at mvogler@eagletribune.com

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:09:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Is this for real?
Message:
What's the date on it?

A rat. Come on man. Forget about the Karma chamelion. We got da rat.

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 12:18:58 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Yes
Message:
It's from an article in a Massachusetts newspaper in 1999. I found it by doing a Google search for 'Divine Light Mission.' Like Cynthia said, Google is amazing.
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 19:47:20 (EDT)
From: bill-see if you can find
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Mishler stuff from denver and miami [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:04:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme)
Message:
Hate to do this to you guys but, yes, you are now my personal trainers. It's got to be 30 minutes minimum a day or no posting.

Today's day 5. I'm all sweaty (shower in a minute) and feel great. And you know, I didn't miss a thing.

Next week we start the weight-training (small time)

How many of you don't exercise at all? I've been doing it for five days now and I can't begin describing all the ways its changed my life. [insert funny head]

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:30:35 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You've ONLY just discovered EXERCISE?
Message:
Cor bloody blimey,

NO WONDER Knowledge makes no sense to you!!!

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 19:52:34 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: true self sc?
Message:
this is a response to one of your posts from below, care to respond?

'I guess r2 has had some experience where he thought he had entered
true self zone.
Feeling your breath and having ideas about it does not change reality.
Lots of hindu influenced folks think the ideas that one can attain
some true self state.
That has always proved itself to be an immature assumption and one that ignores thier actual condition.
If r2 has some true self state he can speak from, I would like him to adress the issue of human nature. And also murphy's law.
That will take some origional thinking as there are no eastern thinkers to lean on that have ever addressed those realities.
Certainly not our lord god almighty guru maharaj ji.'

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:47:13 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme)
Message:
Good for you Jim. Day 5 and going strong. So where are you working out?
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:32:55 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme)
Message:
go for it [go-o-o for it] go for it.

anytime i've taken up exercise on a schedule, I've had massive results.
one codicil--
didja have your doctor check you over before you started? we wouldnt want you to succumb to some unsuspected condition like high blood pressure or aheart murmur that this new regimen would suddenly agg4ravate.

you're a type A if i ever saw one, Jim.
Do this the sensible way, so you'll be around to see the eventual end of the empire.

ok?
consult an expert and be rational about it. That's what you would persuade anyone else to do, wouldn't you?

oh--and the women demand pictures.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:23:28 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme)
Message:
I admit I am an exercise addict. 5-6 days a week, minimum, although I find as I age, I need more recovery time. I started exercising in the cult, actually. At age 27, as CC in Miami, I realized I hadn't done real exercise in years, and so I started running around Coral Gables morning and night. I got into myself instead of service, or something. It was the beginning of the end. I felt lots better. Then, when I came to California, everyone was so into exercise it was easy. Actually, exercise was a way to get the hell away from the ashram. I'd go run around a track and get away from the church ladies and men.

What kind of exercise are you doing? Cardio for 30 minutes? I'd recommend that, possibily increasing to 45 minutes 5 days a week, but you need to do weight training, as, unfortunately, we lose about 1% of muscle mass a year after 35 but if you build up muscle, you can compensate. Also, muscle burns more calories than fat, so you can eat more and not gain fat, or something like that.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:32:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme)
Message:
Hi Joe. Exercise bike, half an hour.

Have a few weights around the house, a chin up bar and those push-up hand things for deeper push-ups. Will start all of that next. Right now I'm just happy to be doing something.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:13:31 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What is this? Day 5? (OT in the extreme)
Message:
I do a little exercise too, Jim. Better than the high from smoking a joint, sometimes as good as heroin.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:34:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Oh come on, Rick
Message:
There's nothing like a good fix before a video. Sometimes I can taste the nectar as I nod and drool.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:39:53 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: heroin vs videos
Message:
who needs heroin when there's videos? same effect--nod out, drool, the great emptiness...
no--seriously--\
actually, rick's right. exercise endorphins are 20 times more powerful than morphine derivatives. you DO get addicted to the high.

but its legal and healthy.

obtw--sex releases endorphins too.
so does a good long massage or an extended cuddle.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:52:39 (EDT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Oh come on, Rick
Message:
jim- I think I'll do it too. what the heck . I will have to work up to 30 min on the bike though......

inspiring !

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:45:13 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Who is this ex-premie?
Message:
Somebody has set up a website, with links to this site, about being a premie, including pictures of Prem Negar. Anybody know who this is?

http://www.kia.addr.com/index.htm

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:13:35 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Questions for Premies....
Message:
Sure, ex-premies can comment as well. I was just wondering if premies think being the Perfect Master was something that kind of was a role Maharaji played sometimes, and other times he was just a human being, and kind of screwed up at that. Did he think about what he was doing?

Like when Maharaji told us, for example in the Christmas satsang in 1979, that if we didn't have complete devotion to him we were going to hell, do you think he thought that might fuck us all up a bit, especially now that he refuses to admit he ever said it?

And during those years Maharaji claimed to be the incarnation of God, to wit, 'the Superior Power in Person,' was that just a phase he was going through, or do you premies think that's really who he is? Or was it something he was sometimes and not others?

Do you think Maharaji felt he was the 'Superior Power in Person' when he was having sex in various hotel rooms away from 'the residence' with the premie women that Michael Dettmers propositioned for him, and then Maharaji rejected, after nixing Dettmers' suggestion that he just have sex with prostitutes instead?

Or was he just 'the Superior Power in Person' when he was sitting on a throne on stage, or perhaps when he was having his feet kissed? Was it something that came and went? What do you think?

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 14:23:55 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Questions for Premies....
Message:
Joe, this certainly is a succinct and astute distallation of all our thrash, hash and rehash here. I think it is the cornerstone of Maharajism and any personality cult. Is he is or is he aint the lord?

The split between Prem Pal Singh Rawat and the Speaker formerly known as SatGuru must be the source of cognitive dissonance in any thinking person attempting to follow him. I've theorized about this quite a bit and the nearest I can come to it is found in archetypal psychology. As my feeble noggin comprehends it, there is, say, a 'King' archetype that shines upon various people at various times. Any humane and wise world leader could be said to embody the 'King' archetype for awhile. That doesn't mean they always were nor always would be 'King'. I think young Prem Pal was gifted with an aura of 'SatGuruness' for awhile and squandered that gift. Many of us and thousands of others, gave him the mandate to be SatGuru and to lead us but he squandered that acknowledgement. I don't believe GMJ ever was the Superior Power in Person or God in a Bod but think he had the potential to create a humanitarian movement. Instead he squandered both his potential and our trust. According to the book J-M found on spiritual commercialism in the thread above, Prem Pal Rawat is very typical.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 15:30:02 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Questions for Premies....
Message:
He is scum. I feel really fed up today that I ever heard his name and his; I am the Lord returned and I have this knowledge that will make your life better crap. Mostly these days I can forget it, but today I feel extremely angry for myself, and for the people who have been damaged by this money grabbing worm.
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:16:26 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Link??
Message:
I don't know why it says link by my post above. I have no clue how to do links!
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:56:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I saw you ask this over in the monkey pit
Message:
Can't wait for their answers.

How about a little bet? You give me $20 (U.S.) for every comment about what a sorry, bitter 'looser' you are and I'll give you $20 (Canadian) for every thoughtful reply. Yes?

Silence is as good as a nod is as good as a 'yes'.

You're on. Let's go watch.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:17:27 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I saw you ask this over in the monkey pit
Message:
I don't like the exchange rates, Jim. US dollars only, but I'm not betting.

Actually, I think Life's Great, is...great. I love the fact that premies are talking in the way they do. We should have more of that, although I know Maharaji doesn't like it, and maybe that's why I like it. The more premies talk, uncensored, the better.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:22:51 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers
Message:
In the last week I (and my evil twin Larkin) have received seemingly friendly emails from two strangers. One from something calling itself 'honi', the second, today, from 'Debra Davies' who, to my knowledge, I have never met in my life. Neither correspondent introduced themselves but both had the chatty manner of old friends. And both chatted like old friends for about two seconds, asking how I am and see ya later. Both emails carried attachments containing executable code. Having a strong bullshit detector I have opened neither attachment. I emailed 'honi' a week back asking who he/she was and why he/she was emailing, but no reply.

Today, I replied to Debra. Demon mailserver replied straight back saying Debra's email account was 'temporarily over quota' (whatever that means).

Probably coincidence, but I noticed Debra shares an email domain with one Barry Shaw - former FA of this parish and now born-again premie.

Anyway, since the mailserver couldn't deliver, here is my reply:

Hi Debra! I'm fine. How are you? Do I know you?

I never open email attachments containing executable code unless I am
confident about the source. In the present case I don't feel too
confident. Can you tell me what sort of advice you are after in a
normal email. I don't wish to be impolite but there are at least a few
people in this big, bad world who would happily blow up my computer.

Thanks,
Nige

(BTW: Do you know Barry Shaw? He's from Bellsouth.net too..)

In message <20010814172947.RBDE767.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@3m9mh01>,
Debra Davies writes
>Hi! How are you?
>
>I send you this file in order to have your advice
>
>See you later. Thanks
>
>[ A MIME application / mixed part was included here. ]
>
>

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Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 22:41:02 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: me too...very creepy
Message:
I also got an emial from Debra and two strange men, one claimed to be researching the astrological configurations of ex-premies... I opened the attachment from Debra thinking it was an old student I'd forgotten wanting career advice or something. It was just encoded babble. This gives me the creeps and now I wander if I have a cult virus . Also the astrology bloke wanted details of my birth. Creepy
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:39:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers
Message:
Nigel,

I received the same post in the webmaster mailbox. I'd be surprised and diappointed if it was Bazza.

John.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 20:43:00 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes I'm convinced it's not Bazza..
Message:
..and relieved. I am at the same time slightly troubled that Bazza may be 'Rob Anderson'.. having had (so I thought) many good email exchanges with both characters I would be well pissed off with both of them if they turn out to be one and the same guy - as Jim's recent posts suggest. Actually, more than pissed off, given the support I gave 'Baz' during the recent FV implosion...

Significant, perhaps, that Bazza's arrival coindicided with Rob's departure...? (I was FA at the time and hence well-placed)

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:27:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: To recap -- case for suspicion
Message:
Just because I've got nothing better to do (will ride bike in a minute):

1) Rob called me once and left a message that, in retrospect, sounded like Bazza who I became friends with and spoke to a number of times. This 'voice identification', however, was almost worthless given the fact that I was merely relying on a year-old memory of one or two sentences I heard a couple of times. When confronted with the suspicion, Bazza questioned why I never alleged that that Rob message was him in all the time we talked to each other before he 'found his way back home' or however he described it on his website. Indeed, he suggested that I was only alleging this now insincerely because I couldn't fathom him honestly even thinking of returning to the fold. But no, this isn't true. I'd just never thought of it. It wasn't until Gerry made an off-hand comment on LG to the effect that they were one and the same that I put two-and-two together (rightly or wrongly).

What's most interesting, though, is what happened next. I'd tried to reach Bazza on and off since his whole conflict with Brian and Katie and his swearing off the forum in anger. Although I did exchange one or two emails with him, I couldn't reach him on his phone. This was in marked contrast to before when he was quite accessible. If he wasn't available, he'd always get back to me fast. After he left here, though, things changed. Here's the interesting part: the moment I posted something about how I was starting to wonder if that Rob voice on the old phone message and Bazza's weren't indeed one and the same, he did something radical, he removed his own voice from the voice mail and replaced it with a generic phone company voice. I say 'radical' because, in so doing, he gave up this whole nifty system he had. People would call his cell and, if he didn't answer, they'd get his message directing them to his website where they could look up his availability and know when to call next. So, for some reason, when he was already more than able to avoid me by simply not answering (he's got call display), something he'd been doing apparently for a few weeks (I tried to reach him maybe eight or ten times, if that, during a couple of week period), he now thought it important to prevent me from hearing his voice again. Not just avoid me but avoid me hearing him.

Bazza talked about all this in a heated exchange on LG a few weeks ago. At that time, he said that once he decided to break off contact with the exes here, he had numbers like mine, of ex's he used to talk with, automatically deferred directly to the phone company recording and that that's why I couldn't hear his voice anymore. However that was untrue. Bazza only made that change regarding my number (or any other numbers for all I know) the day I accused him of being Rob based on the old phone message.

2) There is another ex who struck up a phone friendship with Rob. She knows his voice much better than I and could identify it in a moment given the chance. Of course Bazza's gone to great lengths now to stop her or me or anyone I know from hearing his voice. However, her description of Rob's voice matches both my own recollection of the Rob phone message and Bazza's voice: high-timbred, English (but not 'posh'), kind of 'casual' is how I put it. She and I do think we're talking about the same voice, for what that's worth.

3) Bazza is a videographer in Florida. His resume on his website lists the various conventions and other gigs he's done over the last few years. Rob claimed to be a technical or professional writer, also living in the southeast somewhere. Once, Rob told his ex phone pal that he was calling her from a convention he was working at for a company called Citrix. Bazza lists that same convention on his website.

4) Bazza loves intrigue and is a pretty smart fellow. He told me some stories about living in a secret ashram in England way back when, doing spy-vs-spy stuff for Raja Ji, having a ball. Rob, by virtue of the scam he admitted playing on us all here (pretending to be a PAM with agya to get all the premies to quit posting) was most definitely a game player. As Nige says, Bazza showed up right around when Rob, without explanation, dropped out.

All of this could be mere coincidence. Who knows? Perhaps Bazza's even right about my getting unreasonable, not to mention unfair, about this simply because I can't accept his allegedly tentative alleged change of heart. Again, this could be resolved in a moment. All Bazza has to do is call someone. Anyone. I've invited him to leave me a little voice message but he's not interested. Instead, he screams bloody murder about harrassment. Truthfully, methinks he doth protest a little much given how we were friends and all.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:28:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Clarification -- suspicion re Rob not virus [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:03:47 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers
Message:
I got the same e mail from Debra Davies, with the same text.
I dont like it because only 5 people here have my adress.?

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:14:50 (EDT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Forget above post , mistake. nt,
Message:
hygk
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 02:04:45 (EDT)
From: jANET
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: SIRCAM-VIRUS +WORM TIME BOMB
Message:

THIS IS THE SIRCAM VIRUS AND WORM! DO NOT OPEN, AND TAKE THE STEPS AT THE END OF THIS ARTICLE. IT IS UNLIKE EVERY OTHER VIRUS YOU'VE EVER HAD!

It is important that all of you read the following report that I found at www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,45476,00.html :
11:50 a.m. July 23, 2001 PDT 'I send you this file in order to have your advice.'
Does that line sound familiar? If so, you're one of the thousands of Internet users around the world who have received the SirCam virus since it was released into the wild last week.
And it continues to spread quickly. One virus watchdog calls it 'the sneakiest, smartest virus we've seen in a long time.'
But even though it has spread like a wildfire on a windy day in a dry forest, at least one high-profile anti-virus company says it's not the current top e-mail threat in the world.
That distinction belongs to ILoveYou.
That's right, the infamous 'Love Bug' is back atop the charts, a year and a half after it wreaked havoc around the world. According to Trend Micro's live tracking map, anyway.
SirCam, a unique virus/worm, is still rated by most virus-threat tracking lists as the No. 1 menace to computer systems in North America, Europe and Asia. It has been found lurking in computers in over 50 countries. Most antiviral companies reported that copies of the virus continue to circulate widely on Monday.
SirCam is the only virus to be rated as a moderate threat on McAfee's list of three dozen of the newest and most active viruses, and is rated as a 4 by Symantec, with 5 being the most dangerous designation.
The Love Bug's top ranking on Trend Micro's list is based on a serious new outbreak of the old worm in South Africa. Trend Micro gathers the data from computers that use its free online virus-scanning tool.
The Love Bug is also known as 'VBS.Loveletter.' 'We are having a major outbreak of the Love Letters here (Monday) morning,' said John Ochieng, a systems support supervisor for the city of Johannesburg.
'The local technicians estimate there have been about 5,000 or so infections due to the worm, which is still spreading,' Ochieng said. 'We missed the infection the first time it went around. We have just begun to build up our technology, so this is something new to many of our computer users.'
(Ironically, a British security firm called Messagelabs said in a statement that its first sighting of SirCam last Tuesday originated from a South African e-mail address.)
Despite the flood of Loveletters currently plaguing South Africa, the vast majority of the world is more likely to see SirCam in their inboxes.
SirCam arrives with a virus-infected attachment and a random document culled from an infected machine. If the recipient clicks on the attachment, his or her machine is infected with SirCam.
The virus, which affects all e-mail programs -- not just Outlook -- is causing problems for people who practice safe computing and don't even click on the infested attachment.
When SirCam infects a computer, it scans the hard drive of the infected computer, and all drives that the infected machine has access to. It then creates a list of all the e-mail addresses contained in the user's e-mail program and temporary Internet files.
From the contents of the 'My Documents' folder, the worm makes another list, this time of files with specific extensions including .doc, .zip and .jpg. It selects a random file from the list, and attaches it to an e-mail along with a copy of the virus.
Then -- using its own simple mail transfer protocol, or STMP, engine -- SirCam sends an e-mail with the virus and random attachment out to each recipient on the list of addresses it created earlier.
Since the Microsoft Windows operating system's default setting for saved documents and images is 'My Documents,' many people tend to store the majority of their files in that folder. That gives SirCam a wide selection of potentially sensitive documents to send to friends and strangers.
'We are seeing people being affected even when they are not infected,' said Alex Shipp, the chief anti-virus technologist at MessageLabs. 'This virus can generate huge files, which are then sent around by e-mail. We intercepted a file today that was 107MB.'
MessageLabs scans its clients' e-mail for viruses and worms before passing the mail along to the end users. On Monday, the company had intercepted 6,941 copies of the bug from 2,817 different e-mail addresses.
'These huge files can clog bandwidth and really slow down a system, even before the virus is detected and scanned out,' Shipp said.
Ken Dunham, senior analyst for AtomicTangerine/SecurityPortal, expects to see denial of service type problems as SirCam continues to spread, due to the virus sending out large attachments.
Dunham said he has seen reports of SirCam arriving with 100K attachments.
'Any organization with multiple infections of SirCam and a large address book may easily become overloaded with SirCam e-mails and attachments,' Dunham said.
Despite widespread reports of dozens of SirCam-infested e-mails arriving in in-boxes, security experts think that SirCam infections still have not yet peaked.
'Although we have seen significant numbers of this virus in the U.S., we believe that Europe is still waiting to feel the brunt of the SirCam virus,' said Mark Sunner, chief technology officer at MessageLabs.
Thaweesak Koanantakool, director of the Asian National Electronics and Computer Technology Center in Thailand, told a reporter from the Bangkok Post that Thai users unwittingly spread hundreds of copies of the SirCam worm over the weekend, and said that SirCam had become the top computer security problem in Asia by Monday.
'I think, I am 99.9 percent sure, that by Tuesday we will have sad news for Thai business,' Thaweesak said.
South America is also being plagued by SirCam, with a good percentage of the viruses coming from South American addresses, said Andrew Antipass of TechServ, a British security company.
Antipass said he expects to see the virus 'rage across worldwide networks' until the end of this week, if not longer.
'It will start slowing down by the end of the day tomorrow, but will continue to make the rounds for the next few weeks at least,' Antipass said.
He has advised TechServ clients to set their e-mail programs to reject large files until the worst of the SirCam infestations die down.
Dunham was among the few security experts to predict last week that SirCam wouldn't hit hard until Monday. He also believes that SirCam will peak soon, but will remain moderately active for the next two or three weeks.
SirCam uses unconventional techniques to spread. One of the most insidious ways is that it saves virus files in the Recycled folder, which is commonly bypassed during normal system scans. This contributes to its longevity as an active threat, Dunham said.
SirCam also hides its identity by titling each e-mail that it sends with the name of the document it picked up off an infected hard drive.
But so far the text of the e-mail has remained the same. Messages sent by the worm look like this:
Subject: Document file name (without extension)
From: [user_of_infected_machine@isp.com]
To: [random@email.from.address.book]
Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice.
See you later! Thanks
Some versions of the worm come with the above text in Spanish: Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista.
Dunham also predicts SirCam will top active virus lists for at least three months.
Shipp from MessageLabs said SirCam is 'the sneakiest, smartest virus we've seen in a long time.'
SirCam is both a virus and a worm. It replicates itself as a worm does, and it also performs malicious actions on a computer like a virus does.
When activated, SirCam randomly chooses whether to take over all the unused space on a hard drive by filling it with text, or it may delete the contents of the hard drive. SirCam also worms its way deeply into an infected computer's operating system.
When a computer is infected with SirCam, the worm copies itself to 'c:recycledSirC32.exe' and as 'SCam32.exe' in the Windows system directory. The 'SirC32.exe' file is then registered as default startup command for executable (.exe) files so it will run whenever any .exe file is run. The 'SCam32.exe' file is registered as a driver that makes sure it will be started when the system boots up, according to Symantec's analysis.
SirCam cannot be removed by simply yanking its files off an infected hard drive. The computer's .exe file startup key has to be edited first, or there is an excellent chance that the infected computer's operating system will become unstable.
Many antiviral software companies are now providing a tool that helps users purge their system of SirCam.
SirCam is programmed to perform two malicious actions, with the most destructive is set to detonate in October. When a machine is infected, the worm computes a random number that has a 1 in 33 chance of triggering an action that will cause the infected computer's hard drive to generate enough random text to fill the unused space on a hard drive.
This random-text routine will run each time the infected machine is started.
SirCam also checks to see if the date is October 16. If it is, and if the Windows operating system of the infected computer is using the European date format (day/month/year), then SirCam will again generate a random number.
This time the stakes are higher: The number has a 1-in-20 chance of forcing the infected machine to delete all the files on its hard drive.
Don't breathe a sigh of relief at that October date. Dunham and Antipass both expect to see new versions of SirCam within six months.
Variants make it harder for antiviral software to detect malicious code and new strains help to keep a worm in the top 10 threat list.
Even though most people haven't received a copy of the Love Bug since May 2000, it has appeared on security threat lists ever since its debut because of new versions of the worm and occasional isolated, but serious, flare-ups of infections.
SecurityPortal lists the Love Bug as the No. 2 threat on its list for the week of July 20, and McAfee ranks it No. 3 on its July list.
Dunham said that Loveletter continues to be active because it's an efficient worm, and its code is easily accessible to virus writers.
Loveletter's code was originally created with a virus writing kit, downloadable from a handful of malicious hacking sites. The kit, VBS Worm Generator, also makes it easy to create new variants of the worm.
'SirCam isn't a kit worm. It was coded by someone who knows what they were doing,' Antipass said. 'But I would wager a year's paychecks that malicious programmers are already studying its code to learn from it. The next generation of viruses is going to kick computer butt.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 03:09:50 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jANET
Subject: Re: SIRCAM-how it does it(in colors)
Message:
It is important that all of you read the following report that I found at www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,45476,00.html :
11:50 a.m. July 23, 2001 PDT 'I send you this file in order to have your advice.'
Does that line sound familiar? If so, you're one of the thousands of Internet users around the world who have received the SirCam virus since it was released into the wild last week.
And it continues to spread quickly. One virus watchdog calls it 'the sneakiest, smartest virus we've seen in a long time.'
But even though it has spread like a wildfire on a windy day in a dry forest, at least one high-profile anti-virus company says it's not the current top e-mail threat in the world.
That distinction belongs to ILoveYou.
That's right, the infamous 'Love Bug' is back atop the charts, a year and a half after it wreaked havoc around the world. According to Trend Micro's live tracking map, anyway.

SirCam arrives with a virus-infected attachment and a random document culled from an infected machine. If the recipient clicks on the attachment, his or her machine is infected with SirCam.

The virus, which affects all e-mail programs -- not just Outlook -- is causing problems for people who practice safe computing and don't even click on the infested attachment.

When SirCam infects a computer, it scans the hard drive of the infected computer, and all drives that the infected machine has access to. It then creates a list of all the e-mail addresses contained in the user's e-mail program and temporary Internet files.

From the contents of the 'My Documents' folder, the worm makes another list, this time of files with specific extensions including .doc, .zip and .jpg. It selects a random file from the list, and attaches it to an e-mail along with a copy of the virus.
Then -- using its own simple mail transfer protocol, or STMP, engine -- SirCam sends an e-mail with the virus and random attachment out to each recipient on the list of addresses it created earlier.

Since the Microsoft Windows operating system's default setting for saved documents and images is 'My Documents,' many people tend to store the majority of their files in that folder. That gives SirCam a wide selection of potentially sensitive documents to send to friends and strangers.

'We are seeing people being affected even when they are not infected,' said Alex Shipp, the chief anti-virus technologist at MessageLabs.
SirCam uses unconventional techniques to spread.

One of the most insidious ways is that it saves virus files in the Recycled folder, which is commonly bypassed during normal system scans. This contributes to its longevity as an active threat, Dunham said.

SirCam also hides its identity by titling each e-mail that it sends with the name of the document it picked up off an infected hard drive.

But so far the text of the e-mail has remained the same. Messages sent by the worm look like this:
Subject: Document file name (without extension)
From: [user_of_infected_machine@isp.com]
To: [random@email.from.youraddress.book]
'Hi! How are you? I send you this file in order to have your advice.
See you later! Thanks'

Some versions of the worm come with the above text in Spanish:
' Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista.'

'This virus can generate huge files, which are then sent around by e-mail. We intercepted a file today that was 107MB.'
MessageLabs scans its clients' e-mail for viruses and worms before passing the mail along to the end users. On Monday, the company had intercepted 6,941 copies of the bug from 2,817 different e-mail addresses.
'These huge files can clog bandwidth and really slow down a system, even before the virus is detected and scanned out,' Shipp said.
Ken Dunham, senior analyst for AtomicTangerine/SecurityPortal, expects to see denial of service type problems as SirCam continues to spread, due to the virus sending out large attachments.
Dunham said he has seen reports of SirCam arriving with 100K attachments.
'Any organization with multiple infections of SirCam and a large address book may easily become overloaded with SirCam e-mails and attachments,' Dunham said.

SirCam is both a virus and a worm. It replicates itself as a worm does, and it also performs malicious actions on a computer like a virus does.

When activated, SirCam randomly chooses whether to take over all the unused space on a hard drive by filling it with text, or it may delete the contents of the hard drive.

SirCam also worms its way deeply into an infected computer's operating system.
When a computer is infected with SirCam, the worm copies itself to 'c:recycledSirC32.exe' and as 'SCam32.exe' in the Windows system directory.

The 'SirC32.exe' file is then registered as default startup command for executable (.exe) files so it will run whenever any .exe file is run.

The'SCam32.exe' file is registered as a driver that makes sure it will be started when the system boots up, according to Symantec's analysis.

***

SirCam is programmed to perform two malicious actions, with the most destructive is set to detonate in October.


When a machine is infected, the worm computes a random number that has a 1 in 33 chance of triggering an action that will cause the infected computer's hard drive to generate enough random text to fill the unused space on a hard drive.
This random-text routine will run each time the infected machine is started.



SirCam also checks to see if the date is October 16. If it is, and if the Windows operating system of the infected computer is using the European date format (day/month/year), then SirCam will again generate a random number.

This time the stakes are higher: The number has a 1-in-20 chance of forcing the infected machine to delete all the files on its hard drive.

***


SirCam cannot be removed by simply yanking its files off an infected hard drive.



The computer's .exe file startup key has to be edited first, or there is an excellent chance that the infected computer's operating system will become unstable.



Despite widespread reports of dozens of SirCam-infested e-mails arriving in in-boxes, security experts think that SirCam infections still have not yet peaked.

'Although we have seen significant numbers of this virus in the U.S., we believe that Europe is still waiting to feel the brunt of the SirCam virus,' said Mark Sunner, chief technology officer at MessageLabs.

Thaweesak Koanantakool, director of the Asian National Electronics and Computer Technology Center in Thailand, told a reporter from the Bangkok Post that Thai users unwittingly spread hundreds of copies of the SirCam worm over the weekend, and said that SirCam had become the top computer security problem in Asia by Monday.
'I think, I am 99.9 percent sure, that by Tuesday we will have sad news for Thai business,' Thaweesak said.

South America is also being plagued by SirCam, with a good percentage of the viruses coming from South American addresses, said Andrew Antipass of TechServ, a British security company.
Antipass said he expects to see the virus 'rage across worldwide networks' until the end of this week, if not longer.

'It will start slowing down by the end of the day tomorrow, but will continue to make the rounds for the next few weeks at least,' Antipass said.


He has advised TechServ clients to set their e-mail programs to reject large files until the worst of the SirCam infestations die down.

Dunham was among the few security experts to predict last week that SirCam wouldn't hit hard until Monday. He also believes that SirCam will peak soon, but will remain moderately active for the next two or three weeks.
Dunham also predicts SirCam will top active virus lists for at least three months.
Shipp from MessageLabs said SirCam is 'the sneakiest, smartest virus we've seen in a long time.'



Many antiviral software companies are now providing a tool that helps users purge their system of SirCam.


Don't breathe a sigh of relief at that October date. Dunham and Antipass both expect to see new versions of SirCam within six months.

'SirCam isn't a kit worm. It was coded by someone who knows what they were doing,'

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:04:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Micchel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I've also been contaminated
Message:
by this virus.

Use Fixsirc or any recent antivirus software.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:07:43 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jean-Micchel
Subject: RTOOS: remove the offending operating system
Message:
Linux, *BSD, *NIX users aren't affected at all by this virus.
I've received several copies in e-mail. I just laughed and
deleted them.

It's only going to get worse for Windows users. I suggest
removing the offending operating system (basically, anything that
ships out of Redmond, Washington, USA). There are lots of other
system choices available to you, no matter what hardware you own.

a0aji

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:12:17 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: RTOOS: remove the offending operating system
Message:
bad advice. There are millions of people that use windoz.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:55:22 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra' - unknown emailers
Message:
So what happens to the virus when it's not opened? Does it just sit there like a bomb waiting to be detonated? Does it ever expire?

Can you have someone to check it without opening it up and report them?

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:13:57 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Deborah
Subject: virus [was 'Re: To 'honi' and 'Debra'..']
Message:
You can send it to me if you like.

It is an e-mail attachment, if I recall correctly. Yahoo e-mail
detects it, when you tap on the 'scan this with Norton AntiVirus'
hyperlink (or somesuch; it's not in front of me now). If you know
how to forward your e-mail (and you don't mind being a bit more
vulnerable to man-in-the-middle snooping of your e-mail) you can
just create a Yahoo e-mail account and forward your e-mail to it.
From there, it is perfectly safe to look at your e-mail, since
you can use their link to scan the infected e-mail while it is
still on their (Yahoo's) computer!

I thought that was quite nice; I'm a big fan of Yahoo e-mail.

a0aji

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 15:54:37 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: virus [was 'To 'honi' and 'Debra'..']
Message:
Hi, ?how does your name go, aOaji, I didn't receive an email with an attachment, i was curious what to do if I ever do receive a suspicious email.

I use the computer at the University in an office to which I have access. Maybe I'm less vulnerable, maybe not.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:37:15 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: virus [was 'To 'honi' and 'Debra'..']
Message:
Hi, ?how does your name go, aOaji, I didn't receive an email with an attachment, i was curious what to do if I ever do receive a suspicious email.

I use the computer at the University in an office to which I have access. Maybe I'm less vulnerable, maybe not.


---

It's a0aji, which is some sort of an abbreviation of
And On Anand Ji. It is meant to be fun and easy to type.

a0aji is easier than aoaji because when you reach for
the 0 your finger can't go any further, and in the font
I use here, there's a special dot inside the 0 to indicate
what it is (zero: 0 not oh: O).

If you get suspicious mail, forward it to an expert or
delete it. You should know exactly which keystrokes or
mouse clicks will get you through it safely (deleting,
forwarding or the like). Practice them and do them
precisely -- one mistake could infect your system, depending
on if it was vulnerable to begin with.

You should also take this time to inquire with whoever has
set you up with a computer to work with, and ask them exactly
what you have, so you can stay informed as to how to deal with
your particular setup. For instance, if you have Windows 95,
or Windows 98, or any other Windows variation, your instructions
will be completely different than if you are on a VAX, or on a
Macintosh, or on a Linux machine. The time to find out isn't
when you're under pressure; it's now, when you are under no
particular pressure to deal with an emergency (or prevent one,
hopefully).

a0aji

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:25:21 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Not from Barry Shaw
Message:
I've been getting these emails for weeks now. Sometimes from supposed email addresses in Germany, France, England and today I got one from Spain (supposedly) and they all carry the same attachment which has a very nasty virus in it.

All the emails say the same thing more or less, ''I send you this file in order to have your advice.''

The reason I know they all contain a nasty virus is because they're going to my hotmail address which scans the file for viruses. It states that there is no known cure for the virus the file carries.

I think someone is spamming the net with these email viruses and it has nothing to do with Barry Shaw (Bazza). I have been in email contact with Bazza and he has no reason to send me viruses. Also, he doesn't know my email address that the virus emails are going to. It's a different email address to the one he corresponds to me on.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:23:59 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Not from Barry Shaw
Message:
I've been getting these emails for weeks now. Sometimes from supposed email addresses in Germany, France, England and today I got one from Spain (supposedly) and they all carry the same attachment which has a very nasty virus in it.

All the emails say the same thing more or less, ''I send you this file in order to have your advice.''

The reason I know they all contain a nasty virus is because they're going to my hotmail address which scans the file for viruses. It states that there is no known cure for the virus the file carries.

I think someone is spamming the net with these email viruses and it has nothing to do with Barry Shaw (Bazza). I have been in email contact with Bazza and he has no reason to send me viruses. Also, he doesn't know my email address that the virus emails are going to. It's a different email address to the one he corresponds to me on.


---

The entire /Internet/ is under attack. This is the W32/Sircam
virus. Literally everyone will probably see a copy of this virus,
unless their software sheilds them from it -- it is quite effective
at propagating itself. When you get it sent to you, it is probably
sent to you from a spammer who had you in their e-address book!

http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-22.html

http://www.cert.org/ is always a good first stop, whenever
anyone mentions 'computer virus' or 'worm' to you. If it isn't
listed on www.cert.org, it isn't a threat worth paying attention
to, generally speaking.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:57:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: So what can you do?
Message:
Can you report this to someone?
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 01:14:22 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Not really
Message:
The anti virus companies are the only ones you report it to so that they can make a fix for it and they already know about it. It's essential to have a virus protection program on your PC.

Everyone already knows it's all over the 'net. They can't do anything about these viruses but make programs that can disable them.

I love Norton Anti Virus 2001 (it scans my e-mail as it's coming in) but there's a lot of good ones out there. With a virus protection program I can delete the virus and know that it is gone.

You can install virus protection software and scan your computer first thing. They usually advise this anyway.

bests, Francesca

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:02:11 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Not really
Message:
Hi Francesca,

Well I am usually on the same computer at UVIC in an office at the library. I looked in the 'programs' file and noticed we use NORTONS Anti-virus 2000. Noticed an email protector icon as well. Does the 2001 have a lot more advantage?

Hope you're doing well today :)

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 20:34:19 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: If you're on a UVIC computer
Message:
Deb,

If you're on a UVIC computer, you probably should tell them about it. I think as long as they can update their virus definitions they are OK. It depends upon what kind of license they have. My home use one only allows me a year of updates, then I have to buy new software.

The University may have a different deal, especially if it is the network version. Hope that helps.

Yeah, doing good today! :) thanks, hope you too!

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:58:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Hey, Dave
Message:
If you're in email contact with my good old friend, Bazza, who couldn't leave me alone when he was ex-ing (?), ask him if he wouldn't mind leaving you a voice mail. All it will take is one brief clip to settle the Rob question. Of course, he must be sooooo offended ....

Ha!

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:22:27 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I am Rob
Message:
I thought people had guessed that by now.
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:00:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: That's the first PIC I've seen
Message:
Cool. Everytime I open a post that has a PIC, I get a box with a broken image link. Tell me how you did that, please.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:36:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: No you're not!
Message:
The voice is different. See Rob became friends with one of our own here. Talked lots on the phone. All she needs to hear is Bazza's voice to say yea or nay. (Hey, now I'M sounding like Rob!)
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:17:14 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Barry is a premie?
Message:
Did I miss something? Barry Shaw has returned to the cult? I don't believe it. Isn't that kind of like, having seen the elephant sitting in the corner, pretending it isn't there?

Oh, and yes, that's a virus, Nigel. It probably wasn't sent to you intentionally.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:50:52 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Barry is a premie?
Message:
Joe,

You were probably out gallavanting somewhere when Barry Shaw informed us that he was back to meditating now and that he plans to attend one of the South American programs. His comments were rather cryptic and amenable to interpretation. I have my own thoughts about this, but I don't want to say what they are, in case they are correct. But I will give one hint - look for some very unusual and spectacular video to come out of one of the South American programs!!! Go Bazza!!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:01:39 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I got the same thing today
Message:
This is the work of the sircam virus, launched by a hacker. Whoever sent it to you is a victim.

My e-mail from Deborah Davies said:

'Hi! How are you?

I send you this file in order to have your advice

See you later. Thanks'

I remember getting virus warnings from our network team here at work. This is a virus that has been going around the Internet for a while. As soon as I saw the message the words were familiar from one of the virus warnings.

If, by some chance, it did originate with Bazza, chances are that he received the virus, opened it in error, and it mailed itself to everyone in his address book. People you know don't send these things on purpose.

I just looked in my e-mail and here is the message from our staff, below. Whatever anyone does, don't click on the attachment. Delete that e-mail message!

Francesca


---

---

---

---

---

---
-

'Also, the sircam virus is still going around . . . . Please make sure that your virus definitions are dated 8/5/2001. This virus information is as follows:

This worm arrives as an email message with the following content:

Subject: The subject of the email will be random, and will be the same as the file name of the email attachment.
Attachment: The attachment is a file taken from the sender's computer and will have the extension .bat, .com, .lnk or .pif added to it.
Message: The message body will be semi-random, but will always contain one of the following two lines (either English or Spanish) as the first and last sentences of the message.

Spanish Version:
First line: Hola como estas ?
Last line: Nos vemos pronto, gracias.

English Version:
First line: Hi! How are you?
Last line: See you later. Thanks

Between these two sentences, some of the following text may appear:

Spanish Version:
Te mando este archivo para que me des tu punto de vista
Espero me puedas ayudar con el archivo que te mando
Espero te guste este archivo que te mando
Este es el archivo con la informaci=n que me pediste

English Version:
I send you this file in order to have your advice
I hope you can help me with this file that I send
I hope you like the file that I sendo you
This is the file with the information that you ask for

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:42:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's definitely a virus
Message:
Nigel,

That virus is all over the place. It automatically uses others' email to send you the same message, interestingly with all different subject lines though, and, if you execute it, it'll use your computer to do the same thing. I got a bunch of them last month, as did Laurie.

So I doubt that Ron, er, I mean Barry, intentionally sent it to you.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:48:17 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Same thing showed up here
Message:
I, too, received an email from the mysterious Debra, asking for my advice. Hotmail automatically scans any attachments and warned that the message contained 'an uncurable virus.' It won't let you download such messages so I guess I'm safe. Perhaps it came from someone having THAT experience.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 14:00:17 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: bob_s_32792@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: THEORY:Art and religion-purpose?
Message:
There is a lot of new scientific discovery about spirituality and creativity being hardwired into the human species. Some say that the Neanderthal, who had more brains than us, missed this feature, which in time caused the demise of them.
Picture 3 individuals: one in the early stone age, one now and one in about 10 000 years ( Given that civilisation has not been devastated by wars, extictions or natural disasters, and that the human genome has not been altered)
The contemporary of Fred Flintstone had the same brain structure as us. Life was more simple in those days, and apart from hunting-gathering skills there was not as much mental challenge.
To prevent the brain from withering away or get too rigidly stuck in their reality (giving up the flexability) something needed to be found to occupy it. (Use it or lose it)
Somehow evolution favoured this religion art hard wiring: It allows for grand visions of purpose and destiny, but also builds fantasy and abstract thinking. The creative part links to reality and encourages skill and consistency. It might have given humans the edge to adapt to new circumstances. The inherent tendency of religion to be conservative might even have prevented the humans to become too opportunistic. (although not very succesfull!)

Now look at the future human: Assuming that civilisation has evolved we can assume that the knowledge, skill and efficiency in the use of their brain is far greater than ours. The way people learn will have evolved. It would make us look very dense. But if we would have kids there they would not have a problem keeping up with society-Because the human brain is flexible!

We are stuck in the middle, between magical thinking of the past, on our way to unfold our potential, but still in need of spinning our dreams to keep sharp and flexible

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:21:41 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: If only
Message:
there was the time scale you mention, but alas

http://www.hamzen.f2s.com/html/global_warming.html

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:53:00 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: All's I can say is thank god for DUO!
Message:
Hamzen,

Here's your article:

GLOBAL WARMING

40% of the arctic circle has melted in the last 50 years.

Temperatures are expected to rise by 5.8c over the next 100 years, over 10f.

Sea levels will be and already are constantly rising due to the effects of global warming.

Bangladesh will be flooded by 2050, 120 million people homeless, pacific islands are already starting to submerge. What applies to Bangladesh, also applies to any land close to sea levels.

In Britain this means that Norfolk, Suffolk, and parts of many other counties will be submerged, in the USA the Mississippi basin etc. While this is happening, localized, less long term flooding, will increasingly occur due to unstable weather conditions, storms etc.

Even if ALL industrial production were to stop, COMPLETELY, NOW, global warming will happen exactly the same as predicted for the next 100 years. This is because of the size of the atmosphere, and that is working on the assumption of all industrial production and energy consumption stopping now, when it is rising not receding.

The arctic melt is already starting to affect the gulf stream, which by 2050 will have diverted into the Bay of Biscay, This means Britain and Ireland, which will have southern Spanish weather by 2030, will start switching to extreme arctic conditions by 2060, because we will no longer receive its warming effects, we are after all level with Newfoundland and Siberia. The infrastructure effects could be interesting, the announcements for delays by British Rail could bring even more ironic laughs than their recent attempts.

This leaves out the thinning of the ozone layer which protects us, and all life from the effects of UV rays. As the ozone hole enlarges, all life beneath it will cease as UV light burns off new growth. The WWF recently put out a report that life will be unliveable for humans by 2050, because of the combined effects of the ozone hole problem and global warming. All of these estimates are very conservative and are constantly being revised to more drastic levels, especially as the level of energy consumption (the main cause of global warming) is constantly rising as the Ôthird worldÕ gets more industrialized and affluent, see China, India, Brazil, Indonesia. This also leaves out the infrastructure problems world-wide, and the huge water shortages which will inevitably lead to water wars. If Britain over the next 50 years becomes like southern Spain, where does that leave Spain and other equatorial countries, I hate to imagine.

There is also the saturation levels being reached, of the ocean floors and the Amazon forest, as sinks for carbon dioxide. At the moment the levels of CO2 are kept reduced by these sinks, tree growth speed has increased with the phenomenal increase in CO2, but the upper limits of this growth are about to be reached, and that is without our help in cutting the forest down for american burgers etc.

And the worst politicians are the conservative ones such as Bush, supposedly supporters of family values. Very odd.

Ahh well, at least itÕs all out in the open now, and far too late to do anything but affect the rate of increase, not the increase itself, so at last I can start having a life instead of attempting to understand the madness of it all.

For those of you STILL doubting, the agreement amongst scientists is UNANIMOUS.

Even British insurance companies recently warned that 20% of British houses will be uninsurable against flooding by 2020.

Lets party or become multi-millionaires.

ItÕs gonna be one hell of a party.

What are all those little 'O' things?

Also, are you sure about all of this? I mean, unanimouty among scientist? Really? Every last one? If we're going to discuss this, I'd like to know that you're not being hyperbolic. Now, Hamzen, tell me the truth. The figures, the timelines, the inevitabilty ... is this all settled business in the scientific community as far as you know?

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 03:22:01 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: unanious-i read the report
Message:
yup. its official now. its detailed region by region, ecosphere by ecoshere, each species known, each habitat. no more wiggle room.
i wish i had bookmarked the site.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:19:33 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Absolutely so
Message:
I've had a mate of mine who is the main system modeller for Severn Trent Water Authority, one of our largest water co's, look over my article. He's their expert on global warming, whoincreasingly finds the military & the insurance co's turning up at his presentations, he said that everything in the article is mainstream, in fact leaves a lot of the worst out!

There is now TOTAL agreement amongst climatologists etc on this, the only disputes are nitpicking over whether it will be 5.3c or 6.6c etc etc. After the Club of Rome everybody is so conservative in putting out figures, the obvious cry wolf syndrome, but they are constantly (every year/18 months) revising it upwards, and constantly reducing the time spans.
You only have to look at energy consumption figures, and the increases in industrial production to see that it will be WORSE than this.

The funny thing is it's 10/15 years too late to stop the really heavy shit, this information was all available before 1990, never could understand why the media was so slow in making it main headlines. Politicians yeah, gurus yeah, media no, especially the less mainstream ones.

But even in the agit-prop groups, they still don't make this even close to THE issue, I reckon it's just TOO large for most people.

For further confirmation check out the UN's recent report, grim reading. Sorry don't have a link for that, but it only came out last month, shouldn't be hard to track down if you want.

My mate I mentioned earlier, is getting a couple of addresses of real kosher scientific sites dealing with gw (ironic or what, the initials), will be up on my site within the month.

Talking of my site hope you will pop-in sometime, home grown forum there, small and friendly, gonna do a slow community build.

What's your e-mail add again, got some other OT, mostly music links for ya,

BUT check this link out, best music link I've found on the net, and crank up the volume,
http://www.jojomayer.com/html/low.html
genuinely live d&b

Re the fuckin o's in the article, got to check that out, it's translated all the '''s into 'O''s, very odd.

Even the Kyoto agreement would be tinkering, and last I heard the USA, Japan and Australia hadn't even agree to that!!

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:31:00 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Absolutely so
Message:
Ham,

Email's jamesheller@home.com

I did some browsing around on gw after reading your post and couldn't find figures like yours. Where should I look? The UN, you say? 'kay, I will. But I'd be most interested in any such sites you can turn me on to.

The d&b video was cool. Live d&b is like an aural candy shop. I've got some friends in Vancouver who're doing something similar. Actually, it's our old drummer who moved over there, playing with an excellent bass player, dj and mc. The toasting / dub stuff reminded me of them.

I did check out your site and liked it. One thing that was a bit tricky was how abruptly links appeared and disappeared under the cursor. Know what I mean? Small technical point, otherwise it looks very promising. I'll drop by again ... hey, where is it? Okay, I'll save it this time!

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:54:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Like, duh!
Message:
Just figured it out.
[ Hamzen's site ]
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:06:21 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: W're not dead yet
Message:
We are not dead yet! The world will face very serious environmental problems, but we are a resilient species.
BTW I thought in '70, reading the club of Rome report that the world was doomed within 20 years. This was one of the reasons for dropping out, not pursuing a career and getting stuck in the cult
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:27:47 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: Aahh, the Club of Rome, remember it well
Message:
More than serious, with the global warming and the ozone hole, nothing will be able to grow by 2050, even the WWF put out a report saying Earth unliveable for humans by 2050..
Unlike the Club of Rome, which was really just Forrester and his old school systems approach (very weak), the agreement amongst ALL environmental scientists is identical.
There are no doubts about this shit.

All we can do is lessen the speed of destruction, and gw & his ilk have already shown they don't give a monkeys about that.

Re Club of Rome, was part of my reason for joining too, enviro aweareness etc, but that just shows our naivete, even in the systems field Forrester was an old schooler with no idea outside of industrial production lines, was an awful lateral thinker.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:26:01 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: hamzen
Message:
Hamzen, I got your email and I think your article is great. There is a great article in Harpers about how much of the ice shelf in Antarctica has vanished. It's entitled :'Earth to George.'
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 23:24:12 (EDT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks for that Joe
Message:
Any articles you've done yourself you'd fancy up there?
Any good links, especially from the ngo/developmental etc side of things, let us know, want to keep expanding the links section & keep it top quality.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:13:16 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is Maharaji Annoying or Not?
Message:
There is a website called 'Am I Annoying or Not' on which people can vote as to whether a popular figure is annoying or not. Well, guess what, the former Lord of the Universe has his own page, and you can VOTE, after reading the pros and cons of the level of his annoyingness. So far, over 1700 people have voted on his Lardness and over 77% have voted that he is ANNOYING. Check it out at:

http://www.amiannoyingornot.com/view.aspID=2019

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 18:22:07 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Does a mobster own a car with a big trunk? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:15:50 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry, correct link is....
Message:
www.amiannoyingornot.com/view.asp?ID=2019

The '?' got left out of the one, above.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:28:10 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What noise annoys an oyster?
Message:
If your looking for a mantra, say this three times very fast.

What noise annoys an oyster?
Any noise annoys an oyster.
But a noisy noise annoys an oyster most.

(Toungue tangler taught me by me English mum who never sold sea shells by the sea shore)

I noticed GMJ listed next to Bill Maher of Politically Incorrect - a show I enjoyed thoroughly when it was the Comedy Channel and like it now on commercial tv. Wouldn't it be a hoot to have Ex's and PWKs go at it with Maher as host? I think janet proposed this before.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:39:00 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Boiling water??
Message:
My dad told me that one too, but it isn't much of a 'tongue tangler', is it? (we call them 'tongue twisters' over here.)

Anoisynoiseannoysanoysteranoisynoiseannoysanoysteranoisynoiseannoysanoyster.... Easy as piss. Rolls off the tongue much as a nice drop of scotch slides down the gullet: like a torchlight procession.

Try this instead, three times quickly:

The sick sixth sheik's sixth sheep's sick.

Once even, would be impressive...

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 08:11:48 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: a new tongue twister
Message:
Here's a new one you might like:

[synthespian = a blend of synthetic and thespian. In the USA, the word has been a trademark since the late 1980s of the Kleiser-Walczak Construction Co., whose principals, Jeff Kleiser and Diana Walczak, worked on Toy Story, Judge Dredd, and many other films, and have pioneered many of the techniques. Other terms sometimes used are cyberhuman and vactor (for virtual actor).]

i.e. computer-generated digital 'actors'
.
.
.
Here's the tongue-twister:

'Since the thin synthespian thinks this so,
This is so, thinks the thin synthespian'.

Repeat 3 times at speed, then buy yourself a pint (of WD40, to untangle your tongue!)

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 11:19:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I'm not a sheet slitter
Message:
I'm not a sheet slitter or the sheet slitter's son, but I'll slit sheets 'til the sheet slitter comes.

(Jovial Joe, so sorry to hijiack your joke thread, just joyriding your jocular jab at Ji with junky jargon.)

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 12:34:53 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Sheet slitter? How about a pheasant plucker?
Message:
I'm not the pheasant plucker
I'm the pheasant plucker's son,
And I'm only plucking pheasants
Til the pleasant phucker ...

ooops.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 13:55:19 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: CQ, surely you remember the book...
Message:
... 'What To Do 'Til The Pheasant Plucker Comes'.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:49:45 (EDT)
From: thuchabanana
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: well, thuffering thuccotath
Message:
i.e. suffering succotash [lima beans + corn -- trad New England tribal dish, shared with da Pilgrims]
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:24:27 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Sheep sex chic? Sick!
Message:
thesixsicklychicsheiksshaggedsheep-sicksexsicksick(sic)
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:35:32 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Meant to post to Joe
Subject: Funny second time around
Message:
I remember seeing that when I first got here. Thanks, I'll bookmark it this time. Yes, Joe the Politically Incorrect show is a great idea.

Janet? You offered (alas, it was the wrong thread)to check into that possibility. I have an article I would like to send you. It is from a rag magazine. This woman is in NEW YORK. I want her to write an piece on the cult. Thought you could help. It's so funny. You want to read it, trust me. She'd be great.

My email is above.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:37:12 (EDT)
From: oops, meant to post to JOE
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Funny second time around [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:38:08 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Pearl Divers....n/t
Message:
LOLOL!
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:47:39 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Maharaji is a champion annoyance
Message:
Maharaji is among the top 100 most annoying entries in the entire site. I think he is rated about 60th, just a couple of slots behind the Ayatollah.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:44:50 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji is a champion annoyance
Message:
Hi Joe,
That's a great site. But I don't see maharaji on the 'most annoying' list. Perhaps he fell behind quickly. Or perhaps, as I suspected, we were only in a third-rate cult.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 17:36:28 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Premie Desperation
Message:
When I found the site, there were only 1700 votes cast and Maharaji was in the top 50 of the most annoying people at over 77%. Now, some premie, who obviously is such a 'looser' that he or she has nothing better to do in his or her life, has voted about 700 times and now only about 70% of the voters find Maharaji annoying, dropping him from the top 100. God, premies are desperate.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:44:08 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: da Ayatollah Maharaji! hohoho
Message:
Maharaji is among the top 100 most annoying entries in the entire site. I think he is rated about 60th, just a couple of slots behind the Ayatollah.


---

www.amiannoyingornot.com/view.asp?ID=2019

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:59:37 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: National Bits and Pieces (OT)
Message:
Well, I'm feeling a little annoyed this morning about of couple of things I read and I thought I would share them with you. I know, I know, who the hell do I think I am that anybody is interested in my opinion? Should we vote on that?

Anyhow, you (many) gay guys who frequent this forum, if you're thinking about having an affair with a married man, stay out of North Carolina. Apparently, if someone steals your spouse in the Cigarette State, you're allowed to sue for alienation of affection, as is the case in a small number of other states I can't name for you. According to AP, a Charlotte woman is suing the gay men who she claims ended her marriage of 11 years. Hmmmm. Is there any situation left in life that's not theoretically subject to litigation? Can I sue the LA Dodgers for emotional distress? [The Giants are one-half game out of first place and it's making me crazy!]

Also, in another annoying story, ex-gay John Paulk told a congregation of fundamentalist Christians in Austin, Texas, that Christians should reach out to gays and lesbians because: 'For some reason, homosexuals have become the lepers of the church,' said Paulk, sounding mystified about a phenomenon he has helped establish.

A couple of years ago Paulk appeared on the cover of Newsweek as a former drag queen now a member of the board of Exodus International, an organization that he claims 'cured' him or homosexuality. Paulk had a little fall from grace last year when he took time out from being an ex-gay to cruise a gay bar in DC, where his picture was taken and was reported in the press. Paulk later 'confessed' he had 'fallen' (or maybe he was just there to use the bathroom).

Paulk told the audience that he wanted to 'reach out' to the gay community, I think particularly to gay men, aged 25-40 who work out regularly, are height weight proportionate and are uncut. [My editorial comments, sorry.]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:28:57 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: He is no 'ex', just in DEEP denial
Message:
In my opinion, of course. (Re: Paulk).

'Religious' indoctrination, hysteria, persecution - FEH! Look at the hypocritical nastiness perpetuated by these clowns through the ages. Sorry, I shouldn't dishonor clowns by using their name as a pejorative. Clowns are cool; vicious or 'compassionate' assholes, never.

Feelin' fierce,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:22:31 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: National Bits and Pieces (OT)
Message:
Hi Joe,

Well, I don't blame you one bit for being annoyed. The homophobia in this country is enough to make me puke.

Hey, I was at the Google search engine and typed my name in and this is what appeared:

http://www.cybertopia.net/reporter/letters/2941let6.html

It's a letter I wrote to our local rag after reading all the hate letters printed the previous week. I was shocked that I in was searchable via Google. My open letter to Maharaji is there too.

Hmmmmm.....I guess I'm out of the closet about how I feel about hate-mongers!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:46:18 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Don't you love Google?
Message:
It's the best, and fastest, search engine around, or at least I have seen.

I'm not really annoyed, it's really funnier than anything else.

Joe

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:40:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Don't you love Google?
Message:
Yes!

I just looked up a couple of my sisters, one who is a bookbinder and artist, and another who is also an artist. They were both listed!

How do they get all that stuff?

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:05:00 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: All
Subject: Inquiry: Status on Forum Development?
Message:
What is the status on the development of this Forum? Has there been interest shown in migrating off of the Hotmail platform?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:15:19 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: Inquiry: Status on Forum Development?
Message:
I've set this forum up because it was needed urgently as the old one was being closed. If anyone wants to set up an alternative forum on another platform and be the FA, they're welcome to. If it's better than this one, it will become Forum 7.
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 05:08:24 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Inquiry: Status on Forum Development?
Message:
No Forum 6.2 for you, huh? ;)

I wish I had the money. I'd set up a good one.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 09:57:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Well, how much money DO you have?
Message:
Aoaji,

How've you been anyway?

And what improvements do you think we could / should have here? How?

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 15:55:46 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Well, how much money DO you have?
Message:
Aoaji,

How've you been anyway?

And what improvements do you think we could / should have here? How?


---

Hi Jim.

I've been ok. You?

Broke as always. Can't afford basic dental. Oh well!

I think we probably need our own server, co-located with an ISP,
running a good conferencing system. This invariably involves all
the elements I think it does: a system administrator (volunteer
is fine); a licensed software product, individual accounts to
login and post to the system (anonymous handles possible, but
passwords are required); a halfway decent machine (Pentium III
is reasonable) and a good network connection (DSL or better, with
a Static IP and something specific in the ISP's Terms of Service
allowing 'servers' -- some or many DSL carriers offer this level
of service for about $70/month).

We'd need to incorporate (Cooperative Corporation or the like) and
have a responsible Treasurer, Board of Directors and the like, so
that the community property remains the property of the community!

We have to get away from a threaded conferencing model and move
into a linear model (such as Motet or WellEngaged or COW). It
would be preferable to have our own e-mail accounts as well --
this promotes settling disputes in private, when between friends.

Some things would need to be accomplished on Opening Day, and
others (such as e-mail accounts) could wait for some prosperity
to happen, to justify the support and extra effort required to
implement them.

Well, that's about it -- almost everything except the legal expertise
to create a Cooperative Corporation, and the ISP fees to provide
the connectivity, could be acquired by donation of non-currency
resources. I mean, a machine and a place to keep it should not
be too hard to secure; co-location is fairly expensive; keeping
it at someone's house is cheaper (but there is the social contract
to think of).

I just don't think it would be that hard to raise the required
funds, especially if use was attractive. Passworded accounts
would promote responsible posting, and at any rate would end
the debate about identity-forging; I am *certain* that passwording,
in and of itself, is no barrier to participation. Fees, they
would be. Requiring real names, could be.

Having our own server would also mean we'd have a web server to
host related web pages, not just the conferencing engine stuph.

Topics could grow organically; it would be simple to maintain
running topics with messages numbering in the hundreds or even
thousands. A good system generally has about 30 conferences
with 3,000 topics distributed among them, when mature. About
5 to 15 percent of those topics are non-dormant during any
calendar month; the others are there to preserve the context
of the community (of those who came before them; of the sporadic
contributor). Very old discussions are archived (they are
exhibited in their original venue, but are marked as read-only,
locking out any new contribution to those topics -- and they
are taken off the active topic list, to keep it at a manageable
size).

I think 30 people contributing $5/month should do it. If we
can't get that level of a committment, we're doing something
wrong, and that needs to be addressed before the rest of it
can be.

Or something like that... I think I've gone too far out on the
limb here, with some of this; but it is (mostly) my best thinking
on the matter, having done some of this Elsewhere on the Internet,
for any number of days! ;)

a0aji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:38:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ***EVERYONE PLEASE READ FOR COMMENT****
Message:
Aoaji,

How've you been anyway?

And what improvements do you think we could / should have here? How?


---

Hi Jim.

I've been ok. You?

Broke as always. Can't afford basic dental. Oh well!

I think we probably need our own server, co-located with an ISP,
running a good conferencing system. This invariably involves all
the elements I think it does: a system administrator (volunteer
is fine); a licensed software product, individual accounts to
login and post to the system (anonymous handles possible, but
passwords are required); a halfway decent machine (Pentium III
is reasonable) and a good network connection (DSL or better, with
a Static IP and something specific in the ISP's Terms of Service
allowing 'servers' -- some or many DSL carriers offer this level
of service for about $70/month).

We'd need to incorporate (Cooperative Corporation or the like) and
have a responsible Treasurer, Board of Directors and the like, so
that the community property remains the property of the community!

We have to get away from a threaded conferencing model and move
into a linear model (such as Motet or WellEngaged or COW). It
would be preferable to have our own e-mail accounts as well --
this promotes settling disputes in private, when between friends.

Some things would need to be accomplished on Opening Day, and
others (such as e-mail accounts) could wait for some prosperity
to happen, to justify the support and extra effort required to
implement them.

Well, that's about it -- almost everything except the legal expertise
to create a Cooperative Corporation, and the ISP fees to provide
the connectivity, could be acquired by donation of non-currency
resources. I mean, a machine and a place to keep it should not
be too hard to secure; co-location is fairly expensive; keeping
it at someone's house is cheaper (but there is the social contract
to think of).

I just don't think it would be that hard to raise the required
funds, especially if use was attractive. Passworded accounts
would promote responsible posting, and at any rate would end
the debate about identity-forging; I am *certain* that passwording,
in and of itself, is no barrier to participation. Fees, they
would be. Requiring real names, could be.

Having our own server would also mean we'd have a web server to
host related web pages, not just the conferencing engine stuph.

Topics could grow organically; it would be simple to maintain
running topics with messages numbering in the hundreds or even
thousands. A good system generally has about 30 conferences
with 3,000 topics distributed among them, when mature. About
5 to 15 percent of those topics are non-dormant during any
calendar month; the others are there to preserve the context
of the community (of those who came before them; of the sporadic
contributor). Very old discussions are archived (they are
exhibited in their original venue, but are marked as read-only,
locking out any new contribution to those topics -- and they
are taken off the active topic list, to keep it at a manageable
size).

I think 30 people contributing $5/month should do it. If we
can't get that level of a committment, we're doing something
wrong, and that needs to be addressed before the rest of it
can be.

Or something like that... I think I've gone too far out on the
limb here, with some of this; but it is (mostly) my best thinking
on the matter, having done some of this Elsewhere on the Internet,
for any number of days! ;)

a0aji


---

Wow, seems like you know your way around this pool hall quite well, Aoaji. (By the way, I'm fine. Thanks). I'd be more than happy to contribute to a model such as you suggest. I especially think the password idea's ripe now for the reasons you've suggested. There used to be more merit to the idea that we didn't want to discourage premies from dipping their toes in the water but now that they've got their monkey bars on LG, that concern's lost its pep.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 23:35:33 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ***EVERYONE PLEASE READ FOR COMMENT****
Message:
Okay here we go:

I think we probably need our own server, co-located with an ISP,
running a good conferencing system. This invariably involves all
the elements I think it does: a system administrator (volunteer
is fine); a licensed software product, individual accounts to
login and post to the system (anonymous handles possible, but
passwords are required); a halfway decent machine (Pentium III
is reasonable) and a good network connection (DSL or better, with
a Static IP and something specific in the ISP's Terms of Service
allowing 'servers' -- some or many DSL carriers offer this level
of service for about $70/month).

All sounds good to me. Conferencing centre? Does this mean voice? Love the idea of more power and preparing for a larger, hence more volume forum. Also, if it has voice, we may have on-line conference with reporters, etc.

**********************************************************************

We'd need to incorporate (Cooperative Corporation or the like) and
have a responsible Treasurer, Board of Directors and the like, so
that the community property remains the property of the community!

Don't know the pros and cons. This is discussion onto itself.

**********************************************************************

We have to get away from a threaded conferencing model and move into a linear model (such as Motet or WellEngaged or COW). It would be preferable to have our own e-mail accounts as well --
this promotes settling disputes in private, when between friends.

Linear model? Can you link an example? Love the idea of email accounts. This could protect our personal accounts from unsolicited email, and the idea of handling disputes privately is intelligent.

**********************************************************************

Some things would need to be accomplished on Opening Day, and others (such as e-mail accounts) could wait for some prosperity to happen, to justify the support and extra effort required to implement them.

Yes, it would take a committee to organize but the outcome is appealing.

**********************************************************************

Well, that's about it -- almost everything except the legal expertise to create a Cooperative Corporation, and the ISP fees to provide the connectivity, could be acquired by donation of non-currency resources. I mean, a machine and a place to keep it should not be too hard to secure; co-location is fairly expensive; keeping it at someone's house is cheaper (but there is the social contract to think of).

Yes, but we could play around with the idea and take our time to evaluate the costs, hidden costs, responsibility etc. We are not under any kind of deadline now.

**********************************************************************

I just don't think it would be that hard to raise the required funds, especially if use was attractive. Passworded accounts
would promote responsible posting, and at any rate would end the debate about identity-forging; I am *certain* that passwording, in and of itself, is no barrier to participation. Fees, they would be. Requiring real names, could be.

Fees: I don't think this will be a show stopper
PASSWORDS: Wow, we have good reasons to want them, that's for sure. And if things get ugly over the years (which they are bound to) especially if law-suits happen, press releases happen, etc.

**This would require a discussion. Perhaps, first timers can be given a grace period, if they are not stalkers or EV plants sent her to harrass, badger, or threaten, they could get a password. Premies, Non-premies, and defectors.

**********************************************************************

Having our own server would also mean we'd have a web server to
host related web pages, not just the conferencing engine stuph.

Yes, excellent idea. This could also help the $$$$ situation. Why should everyone have their own costs, pitch in for the space.
Good idea.

**********************************************************************

Topics could grow organically; it would be simple to maintain
running topics with messages numbering in the hundreds or even
thousands. A good system generally has about 30 conferences with 3,000 topics distributed among them, when mature. About 5 to 15 percent of those topics are non-dormant during any calendar month; the others are there to preserve the context of the community (of those who came before them; of the sporadic contributor). Very old discussions are archived (they are exhibited in their original venue, but are marked as read-only, locking out any new contribution to those topics -- and they are taken off the active topic list, to keep it at a manageable
size).

Wish I could see example. So, in other words, it would be like a laundry list of topics. But the contributions to the topic would be compressed unless activated? Sorry for the non-techy articultion.

**********************************************************************

I think 30 people contributing $5/month should do it. If we
can't get that level of a committment, we're doing something wrong, and that needs to be addressed before the rest of it
can be.

I offered to send SirDave a months's payment late Sept. I don't think $$$ will be the problem. People could pledge in a special page. Then the group can vote on how the money is spent. This way, no one makes a profit and we all know where we stand. Pledging could also be anonymous but the $$$ shown. Open book policy.

**********************************************************************

Or something like that... I think I've gone too far out on the limb here, with some of this; but it is (mostly) my best thinking on the matter, having done some of this Elsewhere on the Internet, for any number of days!

THINKING ALLOWED.

Brain storming is best when people don't edit their ideas first. The details can be hashed out diplomatically. Nobody should think 'what will someone else think, or so and so will trash this idea'.
That sucks.

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 04:32:00 (EDT)
From: a0aji [LONG POST]
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: ***MY COMMENT****
Message:
Note: I often use words like 'always', 'never', 'absolutely' etc.
these words are invariably inaccurate. -a0aji

Deborah:

Thank you for taking the time to offer your comments. I think
they'll be helpful and informative, as they are discussed one
at a time.

&gt; Posted: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 23:35:33 (EDT)
&gt; Original: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:38:15 (EDT)
&gt; Posted by: Deborah
&gt;
&gt; Subject: Re: ***MY COMMENT****
&gt;
&gt; Okay here we go:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; I think we probably need our own server, co-located with an ISP,
&gt; &gt; running a good conferencing system. This invariably involves all
&gt; &gt; the elements I think it does: a system administrator (volunteer
&gt; &gt; is fine); a licensed software product, individual accounts to
&gt; &gt; login and post to the system (anonymous handles possible, but
&gt; &gt; passwords are required); a halfway decent machine (Pentium III
&gt; &gt; is reasonable) and a good network connection (DSL or better, with
&gt; &gt; a Static IP and something specific in the ISP's Terms of Service
&gt; &gt; (TOS) allowing 'servers' -- some or many DSL carriers offer this level
&gt; &gt; of service for about $70/month).
&gt;
&gt; All sounds good to me. Conferencing centre?

The 'Forum' you are now reading is considered a conferencing
system. We are conferring with each other here.

&gt; Does this mean voice?

No. It means posted messages, similar to what we have now.

&gt; Love the idea of more power and preparing for a larger, hence
&gt; more volume forum. Also, if it has voice, we may have on-line
&gt; conference with reporters, etc.

I don't have any experience with other kinds of conferencing
systems (they do have them: whiteboards, video, audio -- I
would only guess they'd be kind of pricey, and at any rate
would require investment in the necessary hardware by every
single participant! You'd need a video camera at your house;
I'd need one at mine, etc.)

**************************************************************

&gt; &gt; We'd need to incorporate (Cooperative Corporation or the like) and
&gt; &gt; have a responsible Treasurer, Board of Directors and the like, so
&gt; &gt; that the community property remains the property of the community!
&gt;
&gt; Don't know the pros and cons. This is discussion onto itself.

I don't see any other way to collect money to create community
property. The alternative is to simply trust that whoever is
doing this won't walk off with our machine, or simply stop
operating it -- they could get mad and pull the plug, and since
it is their machine, we'd have to start all over. Creating a
corporation and a board of directors is not a very big deal,
overall; and it makes owning property as a group possible.

The property, of course, is not only the computer we'd need to
do what I think we need to do, but the content stored on it --
that is what is really valuable here. Somebody has to take
responsibility to archive it and to make it available to the
public.

If we do what I say we need to do, we're building an e-Library!
Can you imagine building a brick and mortar library, without
incorporating first? I can't.

Somebody tell me how else this is done, since I've participated
in two separate groups who've done it the way I mention (by
creating a Cooperative Corporation) and have not heard (in tens
of thousands of written, online discussion about it) of an
alternative that was better-suited to this well-defined task.

*****************************************************************

&gt; &gt; We have to get away from a threaded conferencing model and move
&gt; &gt; into a linear model (such as Motet or WellEngaged or COW). It
&gt; &gt; would be preferable to have our own e-mail accounts as well --
&gt; &gt; this promotes settling disputes in private, when between friends.
&gt;
&gt; Linear model? Can you link an example?

www.motet.com

You should read the introduction at

http://www.motet.com/html/intro.html

and then register so you can login to the demo system, found at

http://www.motet.com/html/demo.html

&gt; Love the idea of email accounts. This could protect our personal
&gt; accounts from unsolicited email, and the idea of handling disputes
&gt; privately is intelligent.

Me too. They help bring a community into focus; plus, the
e-mail you receive is from other community members, and yet
it is private. It's an additional step; not every conferencing
engine supports e-mail (they expect you to implement e-mail
separately from the conferencing, on those systems).

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; Some things would need to be accomplished on Opening Day, and others
&gt; &gt; (such as e-mail accounts) could wait for some prosperity to happen,
&gt; &gt; to justify the support and extra effort required to implement them.

Yes, it would take a committee to organize but the outcome is
appealing.

A single visionary with deep pockets could do it alone, hiring
staff as needed, and then simply invite the public to join in
the actual conversations on the new system.

I don't care to wait any longer for someone to do this on their
own initiative, with the specific goal of supporting ex-premies
in a community, ongoing basis, with a strong commitment to the
future of such a gathering.

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; Well, that's about it -- almost everything except the legal
&gt; &gt; expertise to create a Cooperative Corporation, and the ISP fees
&gt; &gt; to provide the connectivity, could be acquired by donation of
&gt; &gt; non-currency resources. I mean, a machine and a place to keep
&gt; &gt; it should not be too hard to secure; co-location is fairly
&gt; &gt; expensive; keeping it at someone's house is cheaper (but there
&gt; &gt; is the social contract to think of).
&gt;
&gt; Yes, but we could play around with the idea and take our time to
&gt; evaluate the costs, hidden costs, responsibility etc. We are not
&gt; under any kind of deadline now.

I don't think time pressure is all that helpful; it is my hope
that someone with more experience in some areas (such as leadership)
would step up and help out, where needed. I've seen it go the
other way, where some financial and functional goal was set that
was too ambitious, and the time pressure placed on everyone to
perform or to know wtf they were doing was too much. The result
was they built (ok, we built!) our community, but when it was
finished, a lot of people who were the life-blood of the place
had lost interest, because there was so much struggle to get
it going, and it brought out plenty of people's hidden ambition.

My ambition is simple enough: I know that a technically-excellent
system will broaden and deepen our conversations. Everything else
is basically a pain and a necessity toward that goal. I also see
the value of a committed view toward archiving every single message
left on the system, for posterity. People will exit the cult
for years and years to come, since many of them have no idea
they are still *in* the cult.

When they do exit, this place needs to be there for them, with
all the logs of the old conversations (series of postings) available
for research. This is especially true as the people who've been
here the longest lost interest in continuing here.

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; I just don't think it would be that hard to raise the required funds,
&gt; &gt; especially if use was attractive. Passworded accounts would promote
&gt; &gt; responsible posting, and at any rate would end the debate about
&gt; &gt; identity-forging; I am *certain* that passwording, in and of itself,
&gt; &gt; is no barrier to participation. Fees, they would be. Requiring real
&gt; &gt; names, could be.
&gt;
&gt; Fees: I don't think this will be a show stopper

I misspoke. Generally, on such systems, there are two levels of
participation. There are those who are essentially patrons, who
support the place for the love of the place, and there is the
public, who gets to use the place for free. We would need 30
patrons (I'm guessing) willing to put up $5/month to keep the
place operational. Naturally, these 30 would rotate; next year's
30 would not all be the same as this year's 30, as people's
interest comes and goes.

&gt; PASSWORDS: Wow, we have good reasons to want them, that's for
&gt; sure. And if things get ugly over the years (which they are bound
&gt; to) especially if law-suits happen, press releases happen, etc.

I'm not a lawyer. Some ideas have come up that are useful,
including Terms of Service, which is essentially the contract
that any member of the public accepts, by logging onto our
system with an established identity and password. I'm pretty
sure (this depends on what state or country the Cooperative
Corporation is formed in; both of ours were formed in California)
the Cooperative Corporation shields the individual Members from
certain liabilities (but not all). Not everyone who uses our
system will be a Member; but all will have a password, which
is a mechanism that *can* be used to get them to agree to a
specific set of guidelines and Terms of Service.

I'm sure the text of the Terms of Service would be a very
hot debate! The trick is, I think, to include everyone who
wants to contribute, in the body of ideas floated for inclusion
in the Terms of Service. The Board (and/or voting Members)
ratify (or whatever) the Terms of Service; and from there on,
all people establishing new accounts (or renewing old accounts)
are bound by the agreement. I think this takes care of most
issues with regard to things such as harassment, infringement
on intellectual property, libel and all that jazz.

I'm not a lawyer. But don't worry -- they come out of the
woodwork for these discussions, if interest is there in
hashing them out.

&gt; **This would require a discussion. Perhaps, first timers can
&gt; be given a grace period, if they are not stalkers or EV plants
&gt; sent her to harrass, badger, or threaten, they could get a
&gt; password. Premies, Non-premies, and defectors.

The usual procedure (on systems where it is assumed that 99
percent of all newcomers are not hostile and could at any rate
be shunned simply by not being very welcoming to them) is to
give all newcomers an opportunity to show they're a valuable
member of the community (or at least, an indifferent member!)
and give them enough privileges to get into a little bit of
trouble with the regular users (who are all more or less
keeping their word and abiding by the TOS).

I have absolutely nothing 'official' to recommend about
shunning hecklers (which is the term I'll stick with, when
discussing people who disrupt valid conversations or attempt
to frighten the members or in any way make participation
deeply unpleasant -- for anyone at all present). I can only
offer comments as to what has worked on more peaceful systems.

1. e-mail helps; whenever a dispute arises, take it to e-mail first.

2. phone calls help (assuming good faith) if friends have a bitter
argument, e-mail will not really help; at some point the
compressed medium of e-mail (which is, after all, telegraphy,
like Morse code!) will not reach a happy resolution -- you
need to hear the other person's voice and humanity to get it,
by then.

If neither e-mail nor voice telephony reaches an agreeable
compromise, not much else can be done, without getting into
access and censorship issues. But there's good news there,
too!

Many systems (I'm not sure about Motet) now have a filter,
which is a list of names you store with your account. When
you login with your name and password, all your preferences
for using the system are retrieved from the central computer
that everyone communicates with. Among those preferences
can be stored a list of names of people you'd rather not
hear from.

When you use the system, it filters out messages from only
those participants you specify in your filter list.

Shunning could be organized -- you could write e-mail,
privately, to those you think would support you, asking
them for unified shunning of the offending name/byline/handle.

This is all spontaneous and I really don't have to tell
anyone how to do it! It will happen without documentation. ;)

What's interesting is, of course, what the shunned personality
does when everyone (or most everyone) stops conversing with
them (which will be evident fairly early in such a proceeding).

Most will login again, using a new identity, and start the
process over (of being excessively annoying to others, and
getting shunned by them). But what happens is that the
newcomers (just like on an un-passworded system) begin to
stand out from the people who are stable and committed,
socially, to their identities, such that their byline becomes
a 'brand' you can 'trust', if you get my drift. This is all
organic; it happens all by itself; nobody orchestrates it.

Eventually people who are used to the system get wise to
all the usual tricks the more disruptive people pull. They
develop defenses that are useful and necessary. One of
the very best ones is the use of private conferences, which
almost every good conferencing engine (including Motet)
provides. The first use will undoubtedly be a closed
discussion among women, where access is by invitation
only (usually, the woman hosting such a discussion invites
people through e-mail and sets up an access list, so that
people don't have to fool around with passwords on a
per-discussion basis).

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; Having our own server would also mean we'd have a web server to
&gt; &gt; host related web pages, not just the conferencing engine stuph.
&gt;
&gt; Yes, excellent idea. This could also help the $$$$ situation.
&gt; Why should everyone have their own costs, pitch in for the
&gt; space. Good idea.

It is a very good bargain (the whole thing is, actually) as
compared with any time in the past. I am a long-standing (6
years or so) member of another system that started out with
a 30,000 dollar (US) investment! That level of investment
was needed, then. I think a good deal of that went into
providing a solid foundation for the future; but some of it
was start-up and first three months' operational costs.

Today we can do it a lot more ad-hoc than that, I believe;
the hardware is essentially free (donated) and the connectivity
can be contracted for with a lot less commitment. If it
failed utterly, the hardware could be returned to the donor,
the phone company is called to disconnect the DSL line, and
we all smile and ask each other what we learned from all that.

That is, until an actual Cooperative Corporation is formed!
I don't know how those are disbanded. The two I belong to
are still thriving, many years later.

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; Topics could grow organically; it would be simple to maintain
&gt; &gt; running topics with messages numbering in the hundreds or even
&gt; &gt; thousands. A good system generally has about 30 conferences with 3,000 topics distributed among them, when mature. About 5 to 15 percent of those topics are non-dormant during any calendar month; the others are there to preserve the context of the community (of those who came before them; of the sporadic contributor). Very old discussions are archived (they are exhibited in their original venue, but are marked as read-only, locking out any new contribution to those topics -- and they are taken off the active topic list, to keep it at a manageable
&gt; &gt; size).

Wish I could see example.

www.motet.com (see above for more accurate sub-URLs).

&gt; So, in other words, it would be like a laundry list of topics.

The active topics rise to the top of a list of all topics.
Typically, you ask to see the new messages that have arrived
since your last visit. If you're ready to mark them as having
been seen, you click one button; if you want to save your
place and read that one again, next time you visit, you
click another button.

&gt; But the contributions to the topic would be compressed unless
&gt; activated? Sorry for the non-techy articulation.

They're essentially hidden from view -- the new stuph rises
to the top of the list; if you get curious about the old,
dormant topics, you scroll down the list (backward in time,
as it were) and re-read old conversations, and add to them
(which brings them to the top of the list again!)

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; I think 30 people contributing $5/month should do it. If we
&gt; &gt; can't get that level of a commitment, we're doing something wrong, and that needs to be addressed before the rest of it
&gt; &gt; can be.
&gt;
&gt; I offered to send SirDave a months's payment late Sept. I don't
&gt; think $$$ will be the problem. People could pledge in a special
&gt; page. Then the group can vote on how the money is spent. This
&gt; way, no one makes a profit and we all know where we stand.
&gt; Pledging could also be anonymous but the $$$ shown. Open book
&gt; policy.

I don't have money experience, but I do know what some things
cost -- and I believe some forms of group money need better
supervision than others. It would be interesting to see
something open implemented, but realistically, if the
Corporation were formed, it probably wouldn't be open.

Obviously people will lobby for that -- they always do. ;)

**********************************************************************

&gt; &gt; Or something like that... I think I've gone too far out on the limb here, with some of this; but it is (mostly) my best thinking on the matter, having done some of this Elsewhere on the Internet, for any number of days!
&gt; &gt;
&gt; THINKING ALLOWED.

Well that's good!

&gt; Brain storming is best when people don't edit their ideas first.
&gt; The details can be hashed out diplomatically. Nobody should think
&gt; 'what will someone else think, or so and so will trash this idea'.
&gt; That sucks.

I'm not a leader, and my feelings are hurt very easily. I know
my limits. But I've seen so much come together and work, and
been a part of that! I want to see some of those things
happen here, for us. I find them most valuable, of all the
things I've participated in, online.

Christopher &lt;a0aji&gt;

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 09:08:00 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: a0aji [LONG POST]
Subject: linear conference model
Message:
[question: what is linear?]

If you www.tour motet.com, you'll come across a demonstration of how
their system works.

The linear conferencing model works by presenting the same information
in the same order, to all participants (which is not the case on the
Hotboards system). With linear, messages appear one after another,
usually grouped by ten messages per page, or more. You scroll through
them, reading them one after another -- you can often see three
messages from three different authors, on a single screenful of text!

This adds tremendous continuity to the experience of conversation,
online. By conversation, I don't mean live chat -- but posts of a
more substantive nature, such as those we are exchanging here.

With the linear conferencing model, you can always see the last 5
messages (or so) in the conversation you are contributing to; your
remarks generally are entered beneath all the other remarks that
were made in that topic, previously. Topics usually run at least
1,000 messages before they are retired from active use; if they
grow to that size, they are usually retired (archived, frozen) and
a new topic with a similar name is begun, to carry on where that
topic left off. This makes it easier to refer to messages by a
reasonably small serial number, when quoting a message left long
ago, in a new context.

Compare linear with threaded -- the threaded message bases are
organized by topic, and are constantly forking new threads (new
subject lines). Every single message on the system is on its
own separate screen; you can never read more than one message at
a time. This leads to quoting, since it is otherwise difficult
to determine which message is being replied-to. Also, messages
on a threaded system are read in a different order, by pretty
much every single person who uses the system -- the chronology
of the messages isn't preserved by the structure of threaded
system. This has the unwanted result that everyone is talking
about something different, because each of them read things in
an order unique to themselves -- people can't follow the larger
context, because there isn't one -- everyone has a private
context, and there is no shared context.

Linear messaging addresses all this, but it does so in a way that
a lot of people do not like, for various political reasons. Linear
messaging presents the same information to all participants in the
same order, because it can -- it is centrally-located and it
coordinates everyone, centrally. Threaded messaging, on the other
hand, has no center -- you read the messages in the order in which
they arrive, which is different for every person in the network!

A lot of studies have been done on threaded vs linear, and most of
them say that linear messaging increases a sense of community, and
promotes greater understanding -- thereby reducing hostility to
that which is intentional, rather than as a side-effect of being
unable to communicate effectively because you simply cannot keep
up with the disorganized system you're stuck with using, and because
you're seeing things from a point of view that isn't shared by
anyone else.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 13:27:47 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ***YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS***
Message:
Thanks again for the detailed explanation, Aoaji. I'm all for creating just this kind of forum although it seems a little slow on the uptake around here regarding this. Too bad.

Setting aside the ownership or access issues (i.e. passwords), do you have any idea what the easiest, simplest and perhaps cheapest way to get this kind of forum would be? For example, say we didn't get our own server, could we still do it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 16:15:01 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ***YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS***
Message:
Thanks again for the detailed explanation, Aoaji. I'm all for creating just this kind of forum although it seems a little slow on the uptake around here regarding this. Too bad.

Setting aside the ownership or access issues (i.e. passwords), do you have any idea what the easiest, simplest and perhaps cheapest way to get this kind of forum would be? For example, say we didn't get our own server, could we still do it?


---

I'm glad you're interested, Jim.

My remarks below are based on a Motet platform; there are plenty
of other avenues of pursuit. Ultimately, an ISP will have to be
convinced it is safe to run any conferencing engine (program) we
license (including those under various OpenSource licenses that
cost no money to use).

I was looking at Bryan Higgins' site (www.motet.com) -- it looks
like Motet (which I've worked with before, and like) will run on
any ISP machine, if the ISP is willing to set it up. So all that's
needed then is the license fee, paid to Bryan; and the ISP set-up
fees and their monthly fee.

see

http://www.motet.com/html/license.html

Note it says 'non-profit organizations'. ;) Some entity or other
would by necessity have to contract with the Motet vendor; the
prices start at $500 for a one-time license for a non-profit, which
is good for an unlimited number of users. It goes up to $1500 for
500 users (probably our minimum requirement; 50 users is the next
tier down!) and that would be the license category we'd be in if we
didn't incorporate (unless someone knows how to convince them we
*act* like a nonprofit, even though we aren't one.) Again, putting
myself across gracefully isn't my strong suit.

It would probably work out best to negotiate with an ISP that
already hosts one or more Motet-based communities, since they
would then be familiar with the extra security issues (for them!)
that come with hosting a Motet-enabled server (the conferencing
engine that lets us post messages to one another).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 17:02:07 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: ***YOU GUYS SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS***
Message:
http://builder.cnet.com/webbuilding/pages/Programming/CGI/ss03.html

This page (see link above) explains why finding an ISP that is
willing to host someone else's software (CGI server software such
as Motet) is a difficult task. Nobody wants to do it; it's a
security nightmare.

Basically, anyone who wants to do it is already doing it; and that's
how we get 'Hotboard' dotcoms. And thats *all* we get; for some
reason, the industry has been consistently clueless about running
decent conferencing software that the public can immediately start
using, for a fee.

A normal ISP (one that is not already running 'Hotboard' type of
operations) is loathe to run any CGI programs they did not write
themselves; the reason is simple: they're going to run it on a
server that is shared among their clients (that's how they can
offer it at a low enough price to attract clients) and anything
that goes wrong will screw things up for everybody on their system.

That's unacceptable.

What they normally do, instead, is allow you to provide your own
server, or rent/buy one from them, and co-locate it (the server
is physically located in a cage on the ISP's premises; it can be
remotely controlled by its owner, but it has the full bandwidth
of the ISP's connection to the Internet.)

That way (if you co-locate) when something bad happens (like, the
CGI program goes crazy) then only your machine can come to harm,
not their other clients' machines. If your machine causes havoc
on their network, they just isolate your machine (they'll physically
or electronically pull the plug on the network interface, if you
mismanage your co-located server!)

The market for these things is well-established; the ISP's call
the tune -- it's their marketplace and they make the rules. It
can be quite frustrating, if you have any sense of what you are
missing, when looking at the offerings by a 'Hotboards' type of
company. The next step up seems to be licensing something like
Motet, and running it on a home DSL connection, out of the
goodness of your heart. The next step up from there is to co-locate
by physically keeping the server on the ISP's premises. I have
not looked deeply into that option; but I've noticed they have
fairly strong guidelines as to which kinds of machines are eligible
for co-location (they want to sell you one of their machines, or
rent one to you, now, don't they?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:11:48 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Closing down access is a no no.....
Message:
...which is what this proposal would mean.

Having a password makes it a club. Fuck that.

Looking at LG I'd say that most of those swinging on the monkey bars are the monmots & v.interesting it is too.

I don't understand what purpose, when the battle has been taken to the enemy's camp, throwing up a barricade would serve.

Enemy is too strong; we're talking about propagandists for a trip that we've all been into versus those who've seen through it.

In many cases they've seen through it by making their own minds up as to who is telling the truth in the exchanges that take place on this forum, the previous one & now also LG.

What is this 'community property' & Board of Directors shit ?

If Sir Dave needs a fiver to keep this site running, I may well send him one: on the other hand I may not, if I forget about it.

Information to the MAX, input from everywhere, ignore bullshit artists, then lots of people will be helped to shake off the influence of the man who was once God.

The internet is the guy's nemesis, the only technology that he hasn't been able to turn to his own advantage.

Don't block it off. Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:53:56 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Re: Closing down access is a no no.....
Message:
What is this 'community property' & Board of Directors shit ?

---

If we obtain a system, it has to be owned by somebody.

It could be owned by an individual, a partnership, or by the
members of a group. If we wanted it to be owned by the members,
incorporation (on some level) is the only construct available.

Right now Hotboards (essentially) owns everything -- perhaps,
even the intellectual property here. Prior to that, Brian,
and/or his ISP owned the Forum.
Incorporating involves a board of directors -- that comes with
it. So do bylaws and other trappings of a corporation. I do
not know the exact differences, but a California Cooperative
Corporation is usually sought (or the equivalent) for the type
of organization we would want to be come (if at all ;)
I've spoken (by typing messages of post-length ;) with dozens
of people about this subject, off and on, over many years. There
is no real doubt about it: incorporation is the only way to become
a member-owned co-op or the like. It is, of course, possible to
pretend such a corporation exists, and behave pretty much the
same way real members of a real corporation would behave, without
actually incorporating. I think a lot of small clubs do just
that, especially if they hold no property in common. Once real
(and valuable) property ownership comes into it, the question of
insuring that ownership stays with the members can come up quite
suddenly (even where there is clearly no malice).

I'm sure others better-versed in this than I, could comment more
accurately.

In order for Members or the Board to vote on anything that's
important to the community, there has to be a means to establish
how a vote is taken.

More to the point, there has to be a means to establish who holds
a valid right to vote, and who does not -- and to establish how
many votes each has, and how the votes are counted, etc.

I can tell you that in recent years, the Cooperative Corporation
I'm most closely involved in has had trouble staffing its Board
of Directors; pretty much anyone who self-nominates is elected
by the Members! Anyone willing to step up to the plate is usually
more than welcome. Further, the Members, by and large, are more
than happy to let the Board run everything important, and the Board
does a great job -- all are grateful to them for doing it voluntarily.

For a while, we hired someone to run the system's technical areas
(who then also became a social member, as it were; a good participant
in the online discussion areas) -- but as usage dropped, we moved off
co-location and into someone's private ISP business (friend of a
friend), did not hire someone else when the old admin asked to be
excused of his duties, and ran everything by volunteer efforts.

Worked out fine.

On the other hand, a few years before all this stability, it was
pretty crazy for a while, with people imagining there was power
to be fought over! It's pretty funny now, looking back at it; but
at the time there were debates about simply *everything* since we
were all so political about it all. ;)

Fer christ's sakes. Unbelievable.

Most of the people who fought so bitterly aren't even around to
wallow in their little victories about this policy or that. It's
interesting to note that only the very deeply-committed people
stayed on, to create a quiet, but vibrant and loving community,
ongoing.

a0aji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:18:36 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Thanks for the clarification ....
Message:
...the teckie stuff above, about which I know zero.

I would certainly be interested in a system that abolished threads, as I often find myself contributing to a conversation that is past its sell by date (like this one)

Anyone who lives in the wrong time zone to the majority, (I'm GMT, christ knows what it's like in Oz, is that yesterday or tomorrow?)finds a whole slew of new threads to absorb every time they tune in.

The only way to make a point is to start a new thread ...& so on it goes.

Keep talking : Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 18:38:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Re: Thanks for the clarification ....
Message:
Sounds like we may be on the same page, then. Good! -a0aji
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 04:13:50 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Re: Closing down access is a no no.....
Message:
...which is what this proposal would mean.

Having a password makes it a club. Fuck that.

Looking at LG I'd say that most of those swinging on the monkey bars are the monmots & v.interesting it is too.

I don't understand what purpose, when the battle has been taken to the enemy's camp, throwing up a barricade would serve.

Enemy is too strong; we're talking about propagandists for a trip that we've all been into versus those who've seen through it.

In many cases they've seen through it by making their own minds up as to who is telling the truth in the exchanges that take place on this forum, the previous one & now also LG.

What is this 'community property' & Board of Directors shit ?

If Sir Dave needs a fiver to keep this site running, I may well send him one: on the other hand I may not, if I forget about it.

Information to the MAX, input from everywhere, ignore bullshit artists, then lots of people will be helped to shake off the influence of the man who was once God.

The internet is the guy's nemesis, the only technology that he hasn't been able to turn to his own advantage.

Don't block it off. Pat Dorrity


---

Thanks for your interest.

Parallel efforts can be made; the best system may or may
not win. Nobody said anything about closing down this
forum, either. You may have to find someone to run it,
if the other project gets off the ground, however. ;)

a0aji

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Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 19:24:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: The more I think of it, the better it looks
Message:
Now that you've brought it up I'm convinced that threads suck compared to the ... what'd you call it? Linear Conferencing Model? Whatever, it's so much better. One question I have, though, is whether or not a forum like that can let a reader know if there are new or unread posts in one of the conversations without the reader having to open the conversation pit itself.

I'm sorry that no one else has taken an interest in this yet. But they will, I'm sure. This just seems like the way to go.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 16, 2001 at 04:17:46 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: test - please disregard
Message:
test - &lt;disregard&gt;
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 11:02:27 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hitler Youth
Message:
Did anybody see the program they had on the History Channel last night about Hitler's Youth? What struck me was how similar the mentality was to premiethink. Now, I'm not saying Maharaji is Hitler and premies are Hitler Youth. All I'm saying is the mentality is the same.

These kids were programmed to believe that Hitler was God, just as premies were (are?) programmed to feel the same way toward Maharaji. They showed filmclips of rallies and I swear the look in the eyes of these Hitler Youth was identical to those of premies at a festival, i-fucking-identical. No lie. It sent shivers through me.

It just goes to show how peoples' minds can be snatched from them so they believe what's programmed into them. It's occurred to me that's just the way humans are built. We have receptors, apparently, in our minds for these cult leaders. We're naturally prone, it seems, to gather in numbers to follow the ones who claim to have the answers, to know where the path to liberation lies. It doesn't matter if they do or don't. All that matters is how strongly they act as if they do. If they're convincing enough, we fall into the trap of believing their lies.

For the Hitler Youth, it was a tragic awakening they had when they learned they'd BEEN had. The end result of their folly was the death and destruction of their entire nation. They didn't get a second chance to wake up from their dream. They got destroyed. If you ask me, it's just a matter of time before another Hitler comes along. It's as if human nature demands it. We're all on the lookout for God in a Bod, and God help us when some motherfucker who leads a world power decides to play that role.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:30:33 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Not taught to think, but 'taught to OBEY'
Message:
Hitler Youth school veteran: 'We weren't taught to think; we were taught to obey.'

Martin Borman Jr.: 'One time I asked my father what the philosophy of National Socialism was all about. He paused for a moment, and then he said, 'national socialism is all about obeying the will and orders of the fuhrer.''

chilling!

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 22:02:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: We were taught in small doses
Message:
'They were good. They were very good. They told us things in small doses, always in small doses. This way we never knew what was happenning to us.' - Former Hitler Youth

Chilling, indeed, such.

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 16:52:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Revisionism is in small doses
Message:
Hi Jerry,

I absolutely believe that the small but consistent doses does the trick. Perhaps that is why the premies who walked (unconsciously) like myself get hit the hardest with the truth.

In a course I took one year, we learned that Hitler's PR man (forget name) wrote about how Propaganda works.

His advice to Hitler: TELL THEM SOMETHING SIMPLE AND SAY IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

Notice the arguments over at LG.
'it is a gift' or
'it's my experience' or
'i am thankful to Maha for this gift'
'you are ungrateful' or
'you are angry'

**And they say it over and over again.

I had not seen or heard of Maha and premies in approx. 12 yrs. so the dose was HUGE for me. It literally bowled me over. I fell off my chair. This is why the LG gang is so unmoved by CULT facts. They swallowed the revisionism a little at a time.

Just a spoonful of sugar (darshan) helps the medicine (propaganda) go DOWN. THe medicine (propaganda) go DOWN. The medicine (propaganda) go DOWN.

Everybody!

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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 20:56:45 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: pr man was: Goebbels Whittaker
Message:
Joseph Goebbels
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 15:22:02 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Hitler Youth
Message:
Read Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler and see if you don't think the phrase those in the cult used - 'working towards the Fuhrer' which is where followers 'know what to do' without being told isn't the same as 'working towards Maharaji', which I remember being used. I read the second volume a month or so back and the similarities repeatedly sent chills down my spine,
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:26:26 (EDT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Belief & confidence
Message:
Don't you think it comes down to getting confidence, self-belief, reckon it's some basic survival function in the face of existential terror.
That whole social thing is pretty powerful too
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:55:35 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: It is ture?
Message:
That premies don't fart. I only ask because I can't remember being one. I also fart a lot.

And I was told that the purpose of life is to get fulllfilled. I know nothin about that. Any help or comment is appreciated as I thought that there was no purpose.

Thanks for the help.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:41:33 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Are you kidding?
Message:
Meditation rooms in the ashrams often smelled like rotten garbage. Do you recall the diet? Lots of raw foods, nuts, dried fruit, soybeans...macroneurotic diets? Need I go on?

But it's a known fact that flatulence increases with age, as the digestive system gets less efficient. Ever wonder where the term 'Old Fart' comes from?. So, it would have smelled a lot worse if it weren't for the fact that we were all so young as premies.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 13:23:29 (EDT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Point of order Mr Joe
Message:
I would like to point out that on a raw food diet no farts, on a cooked, especially bean based vegan diet, ugh rank!
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:26:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Disagree
Message:
I had a crazy housemother one time who put us all on a 'raw foods' diet for a few months. Not only did I lose about 15 pounds, I was never so gassy in my life. I do agree with you aboug beans, though.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:47:33 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Further point of order- I bet such farts a lot ;)
Message:
Age is irrelevant. On a fish/seafood, lean meat, fruit and veg diet - cooked or raw (mostly cutting out the grains, dairy and pulses), farts can be pretty-well eliminated, along with irritable bowels etc.

Immediate painful and lasting extermination to even the gentlest of lentils everywhere...
Nige

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 19:27:49 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Agreed
Message:
Right Nigel. Fish, eggs and pasta are fine. I don't eat meat, but I've heard that isn't a problem either, in that department, but has lots of other problems, especially the way meat is handled and prepared these days.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:42:06 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: vegan + skim milk in chai
Message:
hahahahahahahahahahahhaha

only by royal request -- on her Majesty's Service

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami, OBE

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:23:53 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: mares eat oats and cows eat oats
Message:
and lil' lambs eat ivy -- all cows eat grass [in da open spaces of da bass clef] -- cows make mucho methane -- biggest single contributor of any species!

Smokey da Bear says: Only you can prevent force farts!

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:57:26 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: the more full filled, more farts
Message:
ate a very beeg Mexican dinner today: chimichangas, lots of beans, Spanish rice, tortilla chips and salsa, hot chiles, guacamole, Dos Equis. very full filling, indeed. caramba, muy muchacho!

then, my thilly friend pulled my finger -- and she got a real humdinger!

you know, many premies are vegetarians -- eating lotsa beans. many premies, many farts.

you know dat one guy [whassis name?] - 'you-know-who'. He was always talking about da famous ladus of human beans and smelling one's farts. Just look at him -- lots of methane gas coming from him, too, because he eats his beans with so much lard. he ees a major cartel of ze bio-gas -- BIOPEC. I theenk maybe dat's his other beanzness, no?

Peas and lentils,

PS lard comes from de waste parts of pig

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 16:49:35 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I couldn't resist...
Message:
I placed the name: Lord Guru Fart Maharaji in the ''Complaint Generator' and this is what came out (no pun):

My complaint about Lord Guru Fart Maharaji

In all my letters, I try harder than anything else to make myself clear. I try to state things as simply and unambiguously as I can, because I find that that's the best way to convince my readers that Lord Guru Fart Maharaji was warned by his own secret police not to force women to live by restrictive standards not applicable to men. I will start this discussion by arguing that he believes that some people deserve to feel safe while others do not only because he has a need to believe that. Then, I will present evidence that we could opt to sit back and let him exercise control through indirect coercion or through psychological pressure or manipulation. Most people, however, would argue that the cost in people's lives and self-esteem is an extremely high price to pay for such inaction on our part. Lord Guru Fart Maharaji's rejoinders are merely childish attempts at ridicule. So I give you this letter. I hope it helps.

I'm going for more!

Cynthai

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 21:37:59 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: = da psychic humour network! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:30:22 (EDT)
From: Deena
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hello to anyone who remembers me
Message:
I just stopped in to say hi...haven't been here in a long time. I find that after 4 plus years of leaving 'Lard', as he is so fondly called here, that it does get easier and life is definately better. But amazingly enough the cult's effects continue is subtle ways. I feel for everyone struggling to be an individual after not being one because of him.
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Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2001 at 21:19:41 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Hi Deena!!!
Message:
Nice to see a post from you again!
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:55:34 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Hello to anyone who remembers me
Message:
Hi Deena,
I remember you. It was around late '97 or early '98 when you stopped posting. I'm glad you're okay.
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 18:38:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Hey, Deena
Message:
I just got a call the other day, out of the blue, from Lawrence Bittner. Do you know him? He and his (two?) brother(s) were Regina stalwarts in the cult back in the day. He was married to Linda (later Bucove, now ?), whose sister, Patty, was raped by Trebinanand.

Lawrence stumbled upon the ex site and spent a full twenty-four hours reading it all, every post in the archive, everything. He was stunned. As he told me, he walked away around the same time I did, 1980, but never had the facts for full closure. Now he does.

Glad to hear that Doug's drifted into premie purgatory now. That's sure a good step, isn't it? How's the kid, by the way?

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:13:03 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Hi Deena!!!!
Message:
Great to hear you are doing well. I've thought fondly of you over he past few years. As you can see, I check in here from time to time still. Lots has happened the the Maharaji cult due to the website and the forum. It's interesting to watch.

How's your dog? Mine is as much of a handful as ever. Take care, and all the best.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 12:15:02 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: By the way: re Deena
Message:
Just to let all the newcomers know, Deena was one of the first defections from the cult to arrive on the forum. Selene showed up shortly thereafter. Since then, there has been a continuous stream of PWKs who have left the cult and posted on the forum saying so.

Deena is very smart, funny and a great person.

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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 21:37:05 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Hello Deena!
Message:
Hey Deena, where ya been? It's good to hear from you!
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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 20:38:55 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Hi Deena and Mickey [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 22:08:49 (EDT)
From: Deena
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Hello Deena!
Message:
Thanks Mickey! Guess I've been busy making up for alot of lost time. I've been enjoying all of what I use to believe, and was taught to regard as only an illusion, so I never took the time for. Premie life of meditating and watching videos, working to make the money to get to events etc. use to be the priority. Now I spend as much time as I can in the country... I even have a kayak! Still not the least bit spiritual, let alone religious. Made a promise to my husband not to write on the forum years back but I think he wouldn't feel the same now if he knows that it's benificial for me. It was a sensitive time and one of Maharaji's people who he use to live with in the ashram informed him that I was here. He requested I not be. I didn't feel the need to be here anymore, it had become an obsession... so the timing was good. Now I feel some more healing can occur. If people who work for M want to tell my husband someday I'll deal with that. He hasn't seen M, seen videos or meditated for years and we never talk about anything related to it either. Perhaps he'll get back into it someday, I don't know. Our relationship has never been better, that's for sure and he seems happier than I ever remember him...a real happiness, not that glazed eyed smiley faced kind.

Lots of reading here that I'd like to find some time for.

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Date: Tues, Aug 14, 2001 at 00:14:23 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Yo what up!
Message:
Come on over to Anything goes, this place is way to serious!
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