Jim -:- If someone doesn't post something good ........... -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:06:53 (EDT)

Bob -:- Power website !! -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:02:07 (EDT)

Moley -:- Hey CAC people - I shag sheep in my spare time -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:43:23 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Hey you fucking CAC cowardly bastardfaces… -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:29:13 (EDT)

Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, I'll vouch for Nigel -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:34:44 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Looking for a top 20 spot are we? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:00:54 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Great post-mortem shot, Mike -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:17:30 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- If you were gay, you'd be there already.... -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:48:58 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- There's not many of us left -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:41:14 (EDT)

OTS -:- OTS responds (and how) -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:09:49 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Re: OTS responds (and how) -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:29:54 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- OTS's 20th July Post -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:17:45 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- OTS and Kalamazoo -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:49:06 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- You're kidding - is this the same person -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:43:43 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Best NON-exit speech yet too! -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:27:04 (EDT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Best exit speech yet! -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:12:03 (EDT)

__ __ Richard -:- Brian, post was from OTS -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:17:03 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Wonderful post -- lots of courage -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:46:23 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- That was great... -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:37:06 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- thanks Richard and OTS -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:42:40 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Thanks Gerry -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:28:30 (EDT)

gerry -:- And the Winner Is... -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:44:59 (EDT)

__ a0aji -:- :: that's cute :: [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:25:55 (EDT)

Unnamed CAC Victim -:- is that a ball peen hammer? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:55:53 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Why, yes it is, actually -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:10:55 (EDT)

__ __ Thelma afraid to use real name -:- Get ready for premie exodus -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:14:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Can I do the Latvian exes? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:20:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- trust you to pick the easy one;) [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:22:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What do you mean by 'do'? [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:31:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: What do you mean by 'do'? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:14:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Vai ne, yourself [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:15:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Hey Thelma -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:32:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Thelma afraid to use real nameb) -:- Hey, Deb -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:37:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey, Deb -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:01:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Miss PWKb) formerly known as Pat:) -:- I can't comment, Deb ;) [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:15:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That's coolb) [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:23:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ Roger AK eDrek -:- Re: Get ready for premie exodus -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:29:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- I'm going back to the cult too, Rog -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:13:34 (EDT)

Sir David -:- My final email to CAC -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:41:30 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Big up to ya Sir D -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:34:26 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Good luck in all respects, Dave -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:44:05 (EDT)

__ __ Richard -:- Yes, good luck -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:14:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: be well, Dave :: [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:24:48 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- a different perspective -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:53:16 (EDT)

__ Thelma afraid to use real name -:- Best wishes, Dave, but but but -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:32:18 (EDT)

__ Loaf -:- i refuse to be at war Sir Dave [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:57:21 (EDT)

__ __ Chuck S. -:- I also refuse to be 'at war' -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:10:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I also refuse to be 'at war' -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:30:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ Loaf -:- War.. what is it good for ? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:21:55 (EDT)

Richard -:- Faith & Fear: Children of Krishna -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:01:59 (EDT)

gerry -:- ****Best OF**** nomination -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:37:37 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: ****Best OF**** nomination -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:10:28 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Yeah, you got it right, alright, Anth -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:42:14 (EDT)

Jerry -:- What people will believe (OT) -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:07:29 (EDT)

Newsboy -:- Most of page 3, todays LONDON TIMES -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:03:21 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Thanks, here's the article -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:14:17 (EDT)

__ __ a0aji -:- :: link to another Sai Baba article :: -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:37:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ ivan.w.peters,aberdeen -:- Re: :: link to another Sai Baba article :: -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:09:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- My Name is Chris Hafey -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:12:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Tammy Faye b) -:- Praise the lord and pass the collection plate -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:02:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why do religious freaks write so poorly? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:34:47 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Thanks, here's the 2nd article -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:50:37 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Extra, extra ... -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:20:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Newsboy -:- Shit blown my holiday hideaway cover NT -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:21:24 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- A snippet of Lifes Great for you, Jim -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:39:33 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Wango Tango is desperately Trying to cover ass -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:09:17 (EDT)

__ Thelma formerly Pat:C) -:- Scared to post under my own name -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:49:44 (EDT)

__ __ Thelma formerly Pat:C) -:- From LG re your banning -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:11:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What a fucking joke! -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:55:20 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Thanks Pat reassuring for a new ex [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:47:40 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- You're welcome, Peg -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:52:09 (EDT)

one thing is obvious -:- Mr. Maha and his co-conspirators -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:01:14 (EDT)

__ Julian -:- Maharaji shows his true colors -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:22:17 (EDT)

__ What is the procedure -:- for stopping my automatic -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:21:17 (EDT)

__ __ If all else fails -:- Re: for stopping my automatic -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:14:13 (EDT)

__ __ make sure Dr Crusher -:- circumvents your Borg chip first [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:11:08 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- That's a bit radical, don't you think? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:08:20 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Re: for stopping my automatic -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:09:59 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: for stopping my automatic -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:27:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ Thanks -:- Stopping my automatic monthly contribution [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:41:05 (EDT)

__ peg -:- Re: Mr. Maha and his co-conspirators -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:32:02 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- yes, Peg it is interesting -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:56:48 (EDT)

Loaf -:- can we have a top of page link to CAC here ? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:11:35 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Noooooooo -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:16:08 (EDT)

Loaf -:- This was posted on Lifes Great... and my reply -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:22:38 (EDT)

__ !wantabadge -:- The absolute audacity . . . -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:10:11 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Beatifully said -- how're you doing? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:23:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Epilogue from The Guru Papers -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:30:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Jim, this is great stuff [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:48:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Very relevant, as usual Jim -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:53:24 (EDT)

__ __ And On Anand Ji -:- :: nice post :: [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:29:10 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Huge ooopsy - just reposted it above. -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:58:47 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Re: This was posted on Lifes Great... and my reply -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:20:27 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Peg -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:19:53 (EDT)

__ __ Loaf -:- Re: This was posted on Lifes Great... and my reply -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:51:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Still laughing! [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:20:08 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Nonsense, Peg -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:02:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- I guess I should have read this first! [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:21:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ I like you guys You're sooo funny -:- Peg... thanks [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:47:21 (EDT)

Joseph A. Whalen -:- Letter to CAC, Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:08:11 (EDT)

Roger AK eDrek -:- good job, this has got to stop -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:26:51 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Way to go, Joe -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:06:00 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- A question Joe. -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:39:59 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- I have alsobeen advised not to speak about CAC -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:09 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: I have alsobeen advised not to speak about CAC -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:58:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- How did you know I was in the curry cult. btdt? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:07:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: How did you know I -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:35:51 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Good letter, Joe -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:14:19 (EDT)

Two questions -:- for Charles Glasser -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:53:28 (EDT)

'CAC Attack' Alert -:- Joe,Anth,Marianne on the site now -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:28:58 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- My challenge to Premies and Exes. -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:36:48 (EDT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- I didn't know you are a Libra -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:38:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ Thelma afraid to use real nameb) -:- But he isn't Pig like you and me;) -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:42:42 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- nth CAC means shit in most languages -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:34:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ Thelma afraid to use real name -:- Oops. I guess that's Anth to the nth degree [nt] -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:36:31 (EDT)

__ Roger AK eDrek -:- Anth, can I sell them those pictures I've got -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:34:07 (EDT)

__ __ salam -:- sorry -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:02:41 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- My final say on Cult Against Critics -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:31:00 (EDT)

__ Mercedes -:- Re: Joe,Anth,Marianne on the site now -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:08:53 (EDT)

__ Marianne -:- Dear CAC and Elan Vital -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 00:22:05 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Pop the Cork. -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:30:35 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Whos that gorgeous looking bloke? -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:54:25 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Yours too, Marianne -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:15:31 (EDT)

__ My favorite -:- Re: Joe,Anth,Marianne on the site now -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:39:16 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Relentless Self Promotion -:- Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:17:34 (EDT)

Salam -:- a point of order -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:56:17 (EDT)

__ salam -:- and Jim -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:59:12 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Yes -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:04:59 (EDT)

Jim -:- Cults, like other viruses, just keep changing -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:52:04 (EDT)

__ John Cavad -:- Re: Cults, like other viruses, just keep changing -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:05:56 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Quit harrassing me, John! -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:21:33 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- In love with an ideal -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 17:28:45 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- GM and concepts, curious really -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 16:24:53 (EDT)

btdt -:- cac twin -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 14:41:58 (EDT)

__ sushi -:- mark of destructive cults -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:13:24 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Re: Amway -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:06:04 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: Amway -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:38:09 (EDT)

Loaf -:- being open can leave you open -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 14:22:48 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Scary really isn't it Loaf -:- Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 16:05:21 (EDT)

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:06:53 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: If someone doesn't post something good ........... Message:

I'm going to get out of my sick bed and try to ride my exercise bike again. Come on, guys, I really don't want to do that! Won't someone start a fight with me or something instead? Please??

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:02:07 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: All Subject: Power website !! Message:

Just found the link to j'accuse below, already out of sight. Although I am not a cristian myself I think that the established cristian communities can crush rawat and the cult. There is an existing network, an abundance of money and plenty of determination. The tone in this open letter sounds exactly right to me. I hope it can be put on EPO. This letter is a gem. everybody should read it!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:43:23 (EDT) From: Moley Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Hey CAC people - I shag sheep in my spare time Message:

Why didn't you respond to my Email invitation Borisnotgoodenough? Scared I'll get the wellies out??? Of course you'll have to sweet-talk me to find out what my regular job is. Suffice to say I'm sure you'd find it interesting. Yours in anticipation of greater things to COME. Moley xxx

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:29:13 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Hey you fucking CAC cowardly bastardfaces… Message:

Where’s MY page? I did start the Trojan Horse thing (others jumped in for the glory, but it was my idea) and my evil cousin Larkin is simply asking for it. Come on, I double dare you… I am the sincerest of sincere drug-addled ‘probably armed and dangerous’ cyberstalkers. Do me one, please. I mean, pretty please with ornately-carved, blue-tinted god-men embellished knobs on...! Come on, I'm gagging for it... Nige [ Evidence of cyberstalking... ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:34:44 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Yeah, I'll vouch for Nigel Message:

I've seen his picture. His body language says it all - bad to the bone. A real cyberstalking substance abuser skirt chasing skirt wearing whatever and everything. If you see this cyberstalker Nigel please contact InterPol immediately.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:00:54 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Looking for a top 20 spot are we? Message:

Obviously CAC got inspiration from Woo-Woo site, love the Church of the Sub-Genius link. Your site should be up above in the links I reckon. Are Fitzroys Crap Theories going up sometime soon? Recent attempts in hamzens modelling career fail dismally, see link, especially the pic on the far right! [ This can happen to you if you leave THE guru ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:17:30 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Great post-mortem shot, Mike Message:

You're not still sexually active, I hope. Naw, that's not possible. Actually, it's not a bad picture. Kind of like Lou Reed if he wasn't a teetotaler.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:48:58 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Nigel Subject: If you were gay, you'd be there already.... Message:

Such is the rampant homophobia of that group of 'students' of the master Maharaji, who by the way, seems to have made zero effort to distance himself from what they have done, homophobia and all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:41:14 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Nigel Subject: There's not many of us left Message:

Of all of us who have held positions of power within this movement (of the bowel variety). You, me, Bazza (no - strike that one), Charlie (no - retired long ago), Brian (no - retired recently) and Katie. So, it's a three horse race, you, me and Katie. I guess me and Katie are just too nice, so Nige - you're definitely next!:-) John

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:09:49 (EDT) From: OTS Email: None To: All Subject: OTS responds (and how) Message:

OTS has asked me to post this for him. - Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TO: EPO Readers FROM: OTS DATE: August 27, 2001 RE: Update I made my first and only post here on July 20, and have now had five weeks to digest everything, including my statement and your comments and posts back to me, which, til today, I have not answered. However, due to some FOG CLEARING IN MY HEAD, I have now, after 29 and a half years, finally ended my association with Maharaji -- fully and totally. It was a sad day, yesterday, as I filled up two suitcases (over 50 pounds in weight) with every videotape, audiotape, audiocassette music tape, CD, book, brochure, service file, jewelry, Amaroo logo shirt, Indian cloth sack, 3x5 picture, 4 x 6 picture, 8x10 picture, larger mala-wearing dancing pictures, hand-written prayer book, and a blueprint for a large outdoor festival years old (showing the placement of the Darshan recovery area, etc.) and anything else associated with Maharaji and/or his father found in my house and tossed it all in a large dumpster behind an Indian restaurant near where I live. That’s it folks -- the baby, the bathwater and the whole fuckin basinet -- outta here! I have replaced it all with a newly acquired bobble-head doll of my favorite baseball player. I apologize for my arrogance in my July 20 post. I was trying to hold on to my beloved cult participation and belief systems (that, in fact, Maharaji is God or even greater than God, knows all, is a perfect master, whatever that is, etc.) After almost three decades, it is quite painful to come to the realization that Maharaji is only in it as a family business, he is not the Superior Power in Person, he is not all-knowing, he is not going to take me across the 'oceans of this world . . . to the other side' (wherever that may be), and he has not given me peace even though I surrendered the reigns of my life to him totally years and years ago, as he suggested. My family members and friends (the few I have left) will be shocked if it ever comes up. I doubt it will, they’ll just continue to think of me as a cult-driven sadsack. That’s okay. I was. I cannot believe that I am just now realizing all this. But it is all too clear to me now. I was in a race (triathletic) for recognition and acceptance by the one who was going to save me. [Just this year in Portland, he told the aspirants, religion is for salvation after this life, Knowledge is for salvation during this life.] Oh, please, save me, save me save me!!! Oh, Please! Maharaji says now he is not a leader, a spiritual practitioner or a teacher, but I know what I was told and what to believe for many many many many many many years by him and his appointed saints and organizers, including the writings of his father, Shri Maharji in his 'Hans Yog Prakash' (a devotional manual if there ever was one). And now, again, I was recently faced with having to sing Arti to him and prostrate before him at this feet during Darshan. This is not 30 years ago, this is THIS YEAR -- 2001. In fact, I have now come to the conclusion that I was trapped for near 30 years in a personality cult (sort of like followers of ‘N Sync or Barbara Streisand -- but a million times worse) and just wanted to get closer to the star personality which we all worshiped as God! 'Only by His Grace,' was my/our byword. NO LONGER! I’m through with all this shit. I told you in my July 20th post that I had/have personal contacts with Maharaji and that I liked him and he liked me. Well, as some of you responded to me, so what?! You’re right. That I continued in my master/student relationship even though his organization was in shambles was/is a contradiction, you said. I now agree. I have now come full circle and want to say that I am feeling so free today in that I am relieved of this religion and the fear I carried with it -- my quest to get closer and closer, to get a better seat, to have more chitchat with him, to be respected as one closer and closer to the 'inner circle.' What an ego-driven waste. I am and always have been just a lowly mid-level meaningless person in his organization. And finally poor from running all over the world to satisfy my quest as outlined above. What a stupid out of balance person I was. However, I am so disappointed in his performance in the past 15 years. What about the first 15 years with him? In retrospect, he seemed to be trying for a while, but failed. He promised to work hard to bring this Knowledge to the rest of the world. In my opinion, he didn’t do it. Whether because of laziness, or whatever personal problems he was dealing with, he just didn’t do it. I worked really hard over the past 15 years to try and get propagation going in my city, but it was just a joke -- locally and nationally. The public was just not buying. [Why couldn’t I see through the fog?] Just recently some new person was given a videotape said, 'Okay, I want to see him.' Well, she was told, he doesn’t come around too often -- like hardly ever. It is obvious that Knowledge isn’t going to be spread with any success via videotape or broadcasts. Nope. And how far does someone have to drive to attend some hotel room meeting to get informed about what the next step is in the process for them to receive knowledge (including having to pass all kinds of interviews and rounds of rounds of screening (many by elderly people from other cultures))? It doesn’t have to take a quarter million dollars for him (and his large entourage and production company) to come and speak in a hotel room. He can do it himself, easily and cheaply, yet he won’t. I tried my hand last year at participation involving putting on one of his large events. A personal disaster for me. No cooperation, sleep depravation, burn out. Dealing with EV and its staff and volunteers was completely frustrating; in my opinion because everyone involved was only really concerned with getting a better seat, being closer to the inner circle, getting some personal time and recognition with him, etc. Ever been around him in a small or mid-sized group of people? It’s so weak. People just blurt out the most outrageous, stupid and silly things. And everyone just laughs. Hahahahaha. Insipid and clearly a drag. I never went for that kind of conversation with him. In the end, today, I feel that as a person, I like him, personally, a little. But because of this Master shit, I have lost all respect for him. He speaks nicely and can inspire one to seek one’s inner truth, but that doesn’t equate with the total adoration that is required by him and his. This is a very sick personality cult. It doesn’t do one any good. He IS the weakest link. Good bye.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:29:54 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: OTS responds (and how) Message:

OTS, I'd love to correspond with you if and when you like: jamesheller@home.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:17:45 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Richard Subject: OTS's 20th July Post Message:

I hope she doesn't mind, but I've been brought to task for not getting the F6 archives on line, so here is OTS's first post (via Sir Dave). To me it shows a standard pattern of awakening for someone who genuinely felt she loved Maharaji but couldn't avoid all the other stuff. Her latest post shows she's had a really good look at her involvement with Maharaji. John. Subject: Anon article posted here by request From: David To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:09 (EDT) Email Address: sirdavid12@hotmail.com Message: I was emailed this article today by a premie who has asked me to post it here for you to read. Here it is: TO: Your Readers FROM: OTS SUBJECT: Shades of Gray DATE: July 21, 2001 Warning: This is long, but you all appear to be very bored, so here goes -- my first, last and only post here. About two years I ago, I stumbled onto EPO and was shocked; hit the BACK key and vowed never to go back to the site. (You guessed it, a premie). I’ve kept up the “company line” for the past two years, you know, something like, “Hey, if you’re not into it, fine, but get a life, move on.” But, “thanks” to Pia G., I had to find out what had gotten her so upset. If it weren’t for her “It-Ain’t-So” site, I would have never asked the obvious: WHAT isn’t so? and gone back to EPO. Why go there for the answers? Because, EV appears to me faceless and nameless -- locally, nationally and I guess internationally. I get no information whatsoever from EV. Who runs EV? What are their names? When will they hold a question-and-answer session in person in my town? [I know Pia and her wonderful and lovely husband and kids and am so sorry for her health situation. However, I think her site is embarrassing, as are the ELK site, the FAQs on the EV site, and the response from EV lawyers you’ve posted, but also, as well, most of the hateful speech linked to and on your EPO site.] Anyway… I’ve appreciated reading many but not all of the posts of the exes and feel that some of the dialogue is useful, however, stale. I spent about 125 hours over the past six weeks reading the entire “Best of” Forum and most of the material on the EPO. [Side comment, “thanks” to all of you who wasted my time with your unnecessary posts like “Great post,” “Definite *Best of*” “zzzzzzzz” “dsfgdfsg” etc.] However, in truth, as a caring human being, I really feel the pain of the exes and sympathize with and understand what they are saying and where they are coming from. I do. Really! All of it! I wish you all well. As you might tell, I appear conflicted in that I empathize, but don’t agree with the thrust of it at all. I have learned a lot. This whole dialogue is not a joke. I also have had to face what I did with my life the past thirty years, and where I am at today as well as how it has positioned me for my final 20+ years on earth (I hope) -- financially, emotionally, and (I agree with Nigel) motivationally. I’ve enjoyed very much the re-analyzing. It helped me to see where I have fallen short in my life and not taken responsibility for my actions/mistakes, etc. It’s been really good for me to come to terms with the whole enchilada -- the pluses and minuses. And for that, I send some thanks. Do I believe all of M’s alleged problems are of paramount import to me? No, I do not. Our relationship transcends all of that. Always has. Your concerns are in many cases 25+ years old. My experiences and feelings are real to me and cannot be denied. But, I know you all think I’m a self-deluded idiot, brainwashed by the cult, lost. No worries. I always felt that Jagdeo was a son of a bitch, really. What a nasty guy -- to me and most others. When not on the road in little U.S. towns and hamlets, he was hated by those in Denver. And now to read about Susan and Abi -- I am so sorry for your troubles. What an infuriating and horrible thing, I’m sure. [Note: When he first came to the U.S., he was nice, respectful to others, and carried a little cloth sack around with his things in it. But, a few weeks after his arrival, he was summoned to a meeting with MataJi (M’s mother, whom I blame for everything you guys are troubled about, including regarding her youngest son) and all of a sudden became a mean despot. I’m close with the person who took care of him, and Jagdeo was confronted and admitted that it was MataJi in the meeting who’d told him how to act and how to be -- including orders to never sit at the same level as a premie, always sit above them, etc. etc. Jagdeo apologized and never was disrespectful again to this person, who had stood up to him.] As you probably know, your case is weak, however. (Not your beef, but your case.) To me, your site’s notion of justice is out of whack. Your lawyers will not “pierce the corporate veil.” On the other hand, do I think Valerio is a joke? Yes, I do. And that he charges hundreds of dollars to go to one of his corporate-speak service trainings? Outraged. Why? Because I see the graduates (EV managers) of those seminars and I do not see any improvement at all in their service performance. Have I been ticked over the past few years by the fact that major donors are getting to spend a lot of time with Maharaji and always sit up front at events, while financially strapped me with not great eyesight anymore is usually near the back or way over on the side at my one-hour-a-year U.S. event? Yes I am. But, hey, that’s life. I’ve dealt with a lot more in the past 30 years. It’s not the essence. I am writing today because of your kindness and respect shown to David Andersen [hey MFer, you are completely fly for a white guy and you knows it, cuz] and her sister. I hope that you might find it in your hearts to be nice to me, but I know how easy it is for many of you to dissect every word and parse every sentence posted by non-exes. Thanks, but save it, okay? I will not be responding to your comments or lists of questions for me. I do not want any argument, dialogue or pissing contest. I’ll check back in a few days, but then, like David Andersen, it’ll be adios amigos for me!!! I am tired from and of reading your site. One request: please don’t copy this message in its entirety and then reprint the whole thing but with your comments stuck in after every few sentences >>. I hate that. If you must, just write a paragraph and get your point across, okay? Did you ever live in a two-bedroom apartment with 23 people and have to do all their laundry, as well as cook, clean the place, make lunches, make breakfast, chase rats, mice and roaches 24/7, clean the satsang room, which was also the bedroom and knowledge room (sessions all day and night) all day long, every day, with no break, and have to constantly fix and plunge the stuffed up seriously over-used toilet, constantly shop for food and have to carry up all the groceries four flights of steps yourself, and then have to make chai at an exact temperature five times a day on top of all the rest? And be sleep-deprived but made to rise before dawn to sing and pray in Hindi before you could meditate and your myriad of responsibilities begin all over again? And be disrespected and told that, no, you can’t go out for ice cream -- ever again You cannot go to the movies -- ever! And your mother, weeping softly through her forced smile as she drops you off -- her teenaged daughter/housemother -- in the cold night after an all-too-infrequent dinner-out-with-mom, amongst all these drunks and druggies lurking, loitering, urinating and flashing all over the block and right in front of your darkened building. And you will not get to tool around town in a swank light blue Plymouth sedan and have an expense account, as others did. And you may not go out to dinner with your main squeeze or any friends. You cannot do shit! Some can, but you can’t. (On weekends, while in the ashram, I used to play softball in the park with beer-drinking, pot-smoking nonpremie hippies, because I had nothing else to do all weekend long -- no vacations, skiing, nothing.) And by the way we are transferring you to Kalamazoo, Michigan. Did you surrender your entire life over to M, but found that in charge were some idiots who really didn’t give a shit about you? I did. It hurt. (By the way, if you’re out there: Fuck you, Candy McNary, you bitch!) [Do I have some anger left? Evidently.] Way too many of the women wannabe executives/feminists with their ashen faces and stupid high collars made me sick. Ugly as shit, too. Kissing up to Bob and Lou and the Michaels and all the rest. What a bunch of phonies and pathetic status climbers. Though I have seen just about everything that went on and know most all of the players personally for the past 30 years, I can say without hesitation that I don’t know everything, obviously. I kind of enjoyed (known as guilty pleasure) reading AJW, Nigel, Jim Sanders, Richard R., Joy J., Mike Finch, Friends of Mike Finch, Way and a few others -- especially Michael Donner! I hear where you all are coming from. I especially feel empathy for those who lived in England in the 70’s and other older countries with long rich cultures and traditions and were part of DLM in any way shape or form and who had to go through all that crap. You know, the insensitivity of the Indian Mahatmas and their never-ending trips (sick and otherwise); the robotic badly interpreted agya; the outright selfishness, hurt and noncaring; having to leave the ashram penniless and homeless and having to start from scratch at near 30-years-of-age with a really weak résumé. (I know these all -- all too well.) I feel especially saddened by these tales from across the Atlantic for some reason -- perhaps because I feel that the U.K. was the original birth place of the Church Ladies. Because, being so far away from groovy Denver and the former DLM headquarters, you all were seriously lagging and lacking in any kind of fun whatsoever, it appears. If you’ve had the chance to read Sophia Collier’s Soul Rush book (great writing) on the EPO, you know that things kind of deteriorated as far as the monastic lifestyle out at the old IHQ ashrams (pronounced in the U.K. as “ash,” as in cigarette ash and “rams” as in the animal -- not the deep “a” as in “opera” for both syllables as it is pronounced in the U.S.). The idea of bringing the Eastern monastic lifestyle into the aftermath of the freaky 60’s here in America was all too much. Just didn’t work. Too many 20-year-olds with raging hormones. (Again, I blame Mrs. J.J. Mata Ji). The long sleeves and long skirts and Earthshoes® for the gals; the second-hand suits for the guys -- nice touch. [However, remember that in ’74-’75, we got wholesale discounts on some new clothes from some New York fashion houses and everyone got a new fashionable coat and a few newer style outfits, though we still had to beg for replacement underwear and socks (“Please, Danielle?”).] I recall that, aside from practicing meditation, satsang and service, the only thrill I got (initially) was looking forward to putting cayenne on my daily housemother’s special -- the veggie plate -- at dinner. That was it! Red pepper. What a rush! Wow! What an exciting existence. But, you know, I loved it all. Really. Those were exciting, fun times, through it all. [Am I schizo? Maybe.] Though I write anonymously today, I miss the smiles and laughter of Joan Boykin, Joe Natter, Joan Leahy, Lou Schwartz, Shelly Kaplan, Kathy Sullivan, Dan Hinckley, Kim Schaurer, Janet and Guy Rollins, and the hundreds of others I lived and worked with. And I miss the community premies who didn’t live in the ashram, but were just as inspirational and loving and supportive of me. What happened to them? Where did they go? Where are they? What happened? I miss you all. You are/were wonderful people, lovely to me, funny, fun, insightful, friendly and caring. I also sincerely miss and will always miss Jon Chan (“Time for arti,” in his sweet Asian whisper), Francisco Arce, David Davis, Darrell Evers, Titi Benofi, Nick Seymour Jones, Michael Compton, Bill Rowe, Jordi Kessler, Eileen Mishler, Steve O’Neil and Sandy Meadows -- all dead now, all former premie friends. The living ones, I wonder about. Where’s Tiny, Suzi Bai, Dick Mezey, Ellen Saxel, Thabo Chitja, and so many many others? And why have they disappeared like Chandra Levy? So, what’s my relevant point here? Well, like Dave Andersen, I have a master/student relationship with Maharaji that includes a personal aspect to it. Am I friends with him and his family? No. But he and I like each other. He knows me. I know him. We talked just recently. Privately. He’s always cared personally about me and shown it. He’s the greatest! (In fact, he once told me during play that he was going to smash me into a million pieces.) I love him. My experience is mine. Undeniable. You can’t touch it. Okay, we’ve got problems (I’ve now read all about them). And I’m sorry. And I hope things get ironed out. (But, as you can see from the above, I am not too enamored with the organizational aspect and think it is quite dysfunctional.) Not that I have turned a blind eye to the above enumerated problems, or your many allegations, but, nobody is going to tell me -- NOBODY -- that the joy I’ve experienced in listening to him has not been real and inspiring, time and time again, or that his personal guidance and advices to me have not been always right on, or that Knowledge hasn’t worked. No! I know all that like I know I’m alive. I am sorry you guys hate his guts. I really am. Unconditional love requires overlooking seeming faults on both sides of the relationship. I’ve witnessed his growth and mine, and I feel our relationship’s great worth for me. I hope that all of you find peace one day and come to terms with -- TO YOU -- the terrible fate that has befallen you by being associated with Maharaji. If you can, enjoy the wonderful remaining years you’ve got left (if any. Who knows?). Hug your wife, smell your kids, go to the beach, and get the fuck off the Internet already. Thanks. All you hungry sharks may now continue your online feeding frenzy. Your brother, always, OTS.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:49:06 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: JHB Subject: OTS and Kalamazoo Message:

OTS, did you really get sent to Kalamazoo? I lived there and helped start the ashram there (on Stuart Street in August, 1973). I left in February, 1974, soon after Bill Patterson arrived. Is that where you lived? I'd be interested to know. Thanks for sharing your current thoughts about your departure from the cult. It wasn't easy for us when we left -- even years ago, like me. And I am paying for it again now. Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:43:43 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: JHB Subject: You're kidding - is this the same person Message:

Are you sure JHB that that post is the same person as the one who left the post at top of thread? OTS, me oh my, you have your brain back. What a beautifully written post you contributed. You must have done a lot of soul searching in the past month. I applaud you. Thanks for the sensitive timing. A shred of hope in a time of crisis. Much appreciated. :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:27:04 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: JHB Subject: Best NON-exit speech yet too! Message:

This thing's fantastic! Too much, OTS. Nice to hear from you. It's like listening to Humpty Dmupty on speed, smiling, muttering away happily as he starts to fall ......

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:12:03 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Richard Subject: Best exit speech yet! Message:

As a recent ex myself, my sentiments exactly, well said Richard, you so elouquently expressed the entire gamut of emotions and reasons why I too threw in the towel after 29 years in the cult. Thank you for your courage in confronting the truth about the guru and the cult and sharing your experience so honestly with us

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:17:03 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Brian, post was from OTS Message:

An anonymous poster named OTS asked me to post that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:46:23 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Wonderful post -- lots of courage Message:

Yes, courage. It isn't easy to question what you've been believing for so many years. I was only involved in the Maharaji cult for 10 years, and it wasn't easy then, but at least there is a lot more support here, and more information available. OTS, thanks for being a sincere person with integrity. It's great to see. You seem to be the kind of person, someone sincerely trying to understand the truth and to see what's real and what's bullshit, that encouraged me to become a premie in the first place. It's nice to see that there are people like you still around. I have a question though. You mentioned arti and darshan in 2001. Was that at Amaroo? Are you saying, that in 2001, Maharaji still has ARTI sung to him and still has thousands line up to kiss his feet? Are you talking just a few months ago? Have you ever wondered why people at introductory or aspirant programs are not told about this? It just seems so outrageous that ex-premies are attacked so ruthlessly for relaying this kind of information. Are you aware that members of your cult TARGET those who disagree with Maharaji and his actions? Have you checked out the nifty website your fromer compatriots have put together at www.stopcyberstalkers.org?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:37:06 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Richard Subject: That was great... Message:

but just wait a few months and you won't think maharaji speaks nicely or is inspiring. Every time you hear him he'll sound lamer and lamer.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:42:40 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Richard Subject: thanks Richard and OTS Message:

OTS, I just hope that you didn't throw out the suitcases with the videos and pics. It's fine to throw out the baby with the bath water but suitcases are expensive. In a dumpster behind an Indian restaurant? Very appropriate! Welcome to freedom and sanity. OT: Thanks for those pics Richard. I mean to ask you if those lilies had a perfume. They looked so enticing and cool.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:28:30 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Thanks Gerry Message:

For putting my peace loving website The Great Worldwide Linkup on your links at the top of this forum. Peace, man. That's where it started all those years ago. Make love not war. Ah, it all comes back to me now...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:44:59 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: And the Winner Is... Message:

This Year's Fakiranand Memorial Golden Hammer Award for the highest dedication to our Guru Maharaji goes to: CAC

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:25:55 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: gerry Subject: :: that's cute :: [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:55:53 (EDT) From: Unnamed CAC Victim Email: None To: gerry Subject: is that a ball peen hammer? Message:

Going to talk to my boss to do damage control in the event the higher ups call for my head. Is that a ball peen hammer, Ger?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:10:55 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Unnamed CAC Victim Subject: Why, yes it is, actually Message:

Good Luck with your boss. My live-in girlfriend is pretty pissed about all this and wants me to shape up. She told me I had to get a haircut. Can a job be far behind? This CAC thing is ruining my life. . . . . . . . . . . . (snicker)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:14:47 (EDT) From: Thelma afraid to use real name Email: None To: gerry Subject: Get ready for premie exodus Message:

I can't deal with my email from premies right now. Till I was advised not to talk about the cult the against criticism, I was simply copying and pasting answers to them. Now I have had to tell them to read this forum and see what others are saying about it. A number of my premie friends are now reading this and I will have to be on my best behaviour. (Sorry, Anth I will now longer be able to flirt with you lest I be accused of having cybersex with a happily married man. Jim and Joe I will not be able to respond to all your posts in case I am accused of stalking you.) I was wondering how we will deal with the arrival of a bunch of new posters. I think the answer is to break the forum up into smaller fora to be more manageable. We could have the ''Jim argues with New Agers Forum.'' That will be the largest as most of my premie friends have some warm-fuzzy conceptual cobwebs. I personally will be starting the Expremie Forum for Gay Colostomates, Transvestite Pornographers, Cordon Bleu Chefs and Dog Lovers. Any other ideas? Gerry maybe you can start a Gunlovers and Urban Terrorists Forum with Salam and Roger.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:20:48 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Thelma afraid to use real name Subject: Can I do the Latvian exes? Message:

I don't feel very talkative:-) John the only Latvian premie or ex-premie he knows

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:22:23 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: JHB Subject: trust you to pick the easy one;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:31:34 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: JHB Subject: What do you mean by 'do'? [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:14:10 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: What do you mean by 'do'? Message:

Run the Latvian exes forum of course. With such a large membership, it's going to need an experienced FA to keep them in line (you know these Latvians, don't you Jim?). Also, I'll be able to help with the language problems, vai ne? Dþons

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 20:15:53 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: JHB Subject: Vai ne, yourself [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:32:21 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Thelma afraid to use real name Subject: Hey Thelma Message:

Thelma, About those friends of theirs, would they be willing to post their comments (anonymously if necessary) about their opinion on the CAC site. I think their comments would be valuable. Maybe you could make a post in your own name and provide a list of commentary. Sorry for coming down so hard on you regarding those apology adn sappy comments about Wango Tango but I see it for what it is. Good to see you having some fun.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:37:54 (EDT) From: Thelma afraid to use real nameb) Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Hey, Deb Message:

As you said: ''Their lies speak for themselves.'' No need to belabor the point. I'll ask my pals if I can use their emails but don't expect too much. Most of them are rattled and scared.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:01:39 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Thelma afraid to use real nameb) Subject: Re: Hey, Deb Message:

What a terrible thing for them to hear about their group. Do they suspect Elan Vital's involvement? Are they mad at the BigHead for not coming forward in light of this criminal behaviour?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:15:01 (EDT) From: Miss PWKb) formerly known as Pat:) Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I can't comment, Deb ;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:23:18 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Miss PWKb) formerly known as Pat:) Subject: That's coolb) [nt] Message:

I'm just testing to see how to do the head with the cool shades.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:29:27 (EDT) From: Roger AK eDrek Email: None To: Thelma afraid to use real name Subject: Re: Get ready for premie exodus Message:

Well, .... Nah, I can't even go there. My specialized Forum would just be to vile and despicable.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:13:34 (EDT) From: Thelma the Church Lady Email: None To: Roger AK eDrek Subject: I'm going back to the cult too, Rog Message:

Our kind and merciful master has shown me that he is all powerful and controls the internet and has the best lawyers. I made a terrible mistake to leave him. I know you hateful exes will say it is because I am scared of him and that my silicone implants are trembling with fear but the fact is that I miss straightening out those white table cloths for aspirant events even if no aspirants come. I also was never harassed for being a transvestite pornographer or sleeping with happily married men or taking drugs because so many other PWKs do that too. But watch out because my new agya is to be a cult-weasel agent provocateur for the net jihad and to that end I will in future be posting as Pussy Weasel Kitty. That's Miss PWKb) to you louts.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:41:30 (EDT) From: Sir David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: My final email to CAC Message:

Dear CAC webmasters, I will not be taking any legal action against your site although I understand that some of the people mentioned on your site will be. I realise now that I made a mistake in ever getting involved in this anti-Maharaji business. I am not a well person, having a heart condition and other disabilities. My own life and that of my family's are the only things which are important to me. I never again will venture into the world of premies and ex-premies. Other people can do that but I will stay well clear. In a way, I have finally been released from any involvement with Maharaji and his organisation. I consider any further involvement by me to be a waste of time and energy. I regret ever having been involved as a premie or an EX-premie. I will leave you with your war. I hope that you will see that it is a futile war. There will always be differences of opinion and people will always have different experiences which they will relate. Too much has been made of those differences and thus, the people who were once together have been polarized into to two opposing factions. Such polarizations are of no use to anyone, whether they be in Northern Ireland, The Middle East or in the premie/ex-premie cyberspace. I think the person responsible for this polarization is Maharaji. You may feel differently, of course. I hope you will eventually see that the only way to deal with opposition to your master is not by opposing the opponents, but by putting forward a credible and understandable alternative view. That is the only way forward, in all these situations. Yours sincerely, David Simpkiss. And that, I hope will be my final say on this matter. I wish everyone well, premie and ex-premie and leave with some sadness that while we were once together, with common ideals and aspirations - we have ended up as apparent enemies. There must be a better way than this!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:34:26 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Big up to ya Sir D Message:

For all your stirling work on the net. You may regret having ever been involved, hopefully in the passage of time, when all this settles you'll see how many people you helped escape from big boys spiritual quagmire. Personally I had a REALLY soft spot for the Rev Hammond-Smythe, someone whose posts I always looked for first when checking in on the forum, he cracked me up no end of trimes. You deserve a good rest from it all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:44:05 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Good luck in all respects, Dave Message:

Dave, Your health concerns sound like they really do militate against too much involvement in this whirlpool. Good call on your part. As one who's come and gone so many times, it's hard for me to say 'bye' to you with a straight face. But, whether you come again, lurk a bit or truly close the door, it's been a pleasure knowing you. Who could count all the things you ever wrote that I agreed with or appreciated but never bothered replying to? God, there have to be at least five, maybe seven, over the years. :) No, you'll be missed for sure. You often made the point that we're just cyber here, not real in the sense of what you see out your window. But, Dave, there's a slice of real in these cyber selves. That's why I think I know you some. Know you and respect you, even though you're so wrong about so much so often. :) Best of everything, sincerely, Jim

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:14:03 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, good luck Message:

David, please read the post from OTS above and be confident in the knowledge that you are responsible for that and many other similar stories as well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:24:48 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Richard Subject: :: be well, Dave :: [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:53:16 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Sir David Subject: a different perspective Message:

Ever see those local news stations that uncover unscrupulous merchants who diddle customers out of their hard-earned dollars? They come in with their cameras and you usually see some shady store clerk scurrying into the back room. Somehow they get the customer's money back or the merchant replaces the shoddy roof shingles with the quality product that was ordered in the first place. And it's all very clear that someone did the diddling and someone else was diddled. Fifty years ago something like this might not have worked. If the store merchant was protected by the mafia, a tough thug would visit the customer who was complaining and smack him or her around. Then they'd go to the TV station and beat the crap out the newsperson and break their camera. And everyone who complained would wish they'd kept their mouths shut. Another favorite of the mafia is to threaten someone's family. Nothing like having your loved one's threatened with danger to make a strong person timid. So that's what we have here with CAC and Sir Dave who was cheated by maharaji. Dave spoke out but now he's just happy he's still alive and that his daughter is out of danger. And somewhere there's some creep who designed the CAC web site; some guy who probably actually gets to sleep at night. Someone whose God was insulted and decided to settle the score. It's hard to imagine, but somewhere this person actually exists and leads his life. He gets up in the morning, takes a pee, has some tea and goes to work. He walks down the street, takes a bus, etc. And inside this person is this terrible mess; this complicated, confusing, sticky awful mess. He feels like a piece of shit, but he also feels superior because he's one of the chosen ones. He knows maharaji is the Lord but it also occurs to him that he spends a lot of time doing things to convince himself that it's true. And the terrible anger that wells up when something challenges that, really puts him at odds. But he has to keep it going or nothing is going to seem worth anything at all. Life would be bleak and he wouldn't even want to be alive. So how will this play out? Will Joe and Anth and Marianne and Roger and Way and Salaam and Dettmers and Thelma and Jim and JM and gErRy end up just resigned that their names appear as Cyberstalkers on a web site? Or will they manage to get this CAC person into court? Will they get sued and be forced to take down the site? Or just change the content somewhat? Or will they be put in prison or give probation? Will Sir Dave ever feel safe enough to beat off the bad guys again? I'd bet on it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:32:18 (EDT) From: Thelma afraid to use real name Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Best wishes, Dave, but but but Message:

I completely understand what you are saying. If I had young daughters I would be just as concerned. I just wish you would pop in for a spot of duck hunting at Anything Goes Too.b) But it really isn't war. It's lila and the game has just begun. ;) Love and peace, Pat:C)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:57:21 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Sir David Subject: i refuse to be at war Sir Dave [nt] Message:

I am n

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:10:37 (EDT) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Loaf Subject: I also refuse to be 'at war' Message:

I also refuse to be 'at war'. I believe most premies are not like the people doing CAC. I think it is the sort of dishonesty, lies and cult-like behavior that CAC is pertetuating, that will drive many more premies away. While I don't consider all premies to be my enemies, the premie CAC assault is difficult to just ignore. And it's ironic that someone as gentle and non-judgemental toward premies as Sir Dave is, should be it's first victim. But in a revolution, those who WANT to create polarization first try to get rid of the most moderate people, those who would try to create sympathy and understanding between the extreams. Is this not what CAC is doing? The FBI has a division which is, ironically, called CAC (Crimes Against Children). Even though Sir Dave is in Britian, if the perpetrators of endangerment to his children are in the United States, I believe it still falls under their jurisdiction. I am not looking for a fight or a war, but it is MY partner that is being maligned on the premie CAC site, and MY address and phone number. I AM involved in this, I have no choice. Even though I am not looking for a fight or battle, it does not mean I will not take steps to stop lies, blackmail and injustice. There is a difference between a war and police action. You can desire to not harm others, yet still not allow them to harm YOU. I'm not going to attack premies, I'm just going to keep repeating the truth. The truth always wins ultimately, because it holds up to scrutiny. Time is on our side.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 18:30:30 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: Re: I also refuse to be 'at war' Message:

Chuck, of course this is way to look at the situation. There is a difference between a war and police action. You can desire to not harm others, yet still not allow them to harm YOU. This is how everyone needs to be looking at the situation. To call this a war between premies and exes is silly. This is definately a police matter as well as federal offense and action should be taken accordingly.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:21:55 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: War.. what is it good for ? Message:

yes Chuck.. if i or my loved ones were compromised in any way by this irresponsible behaviour I would be more full of wrath than i could imagine.. I only meant the 'I refuse to be at war' in a general ideological sense.. it was irresponsible of me to omit that there are people for whom this latest attack is physically and emotionally dangerous and damaging. I will fight tooth and nail for you all.. dont laugh.. in the wrong hands, bread can kill. (I have a bread gun) je suis le president du burundi Loaf.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:01:59 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: All Subject: Faith & Fear: Children of Krishna Message:

This PBS documentary will premier on KCTS Seattle Tuesday at 10pm then elsewhere. The photos alone are quite chilling and make me grateful that the DLM I knew was never that extreme. But the comments from the experts about ISKON members' psychological behavior closely parallel what we know and have experienced with GMJ/DLM - M/EV. This brings to mind a time when GMJ was in Denver and the Hari Krishnas went by on the street below. He looked out and commented 'they don't do that in India... but they should' - implying that he thought their zealous expression of devotion was a good thing. Another time when he was touring the art room with Marolyn artist Rance told GMJ about a wonderful restaurant whose owners 'liked spiritual people'. GMJ's reply was 'well they won't like us because we're not spiritual'. So contradictory - such lila - so enigmatic! [ Faith & Fear: Children of Krishna ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:37:37 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: ****Best OF**** nomination Message:

this is Anth's succinct and (of course) funny essay from Lifes Great (sic.) Getting caught in a cult. Message: Premies say, “You get knowledge of your own free will.” But this is not really true. There’s a large amount of persuasion and conditioning that takes place before hand. By the time you get to the knowledge session, you’re already a believer. The process is like one of those large, funnel shaped nets, that’s dragged along by a trawler. The further down the funnel you go, the more intense it gets, and finally, at the end, is the cult initiation ceremony, called a ‘knowledge session’, designed to flop you out the other end, on a cold table, where the master stands with his fish knife, ready to liberate you. The funnel is there to make sure that, when you show up for the initiation ceremony, you are already a believer. It filters people out until only the faithful remain at the end. It works something like this: 1. A cult member gets a friend, colleague, or family member to come along to a special ‘introductory video’. Most people sniff ‘cult’ even at this early stage, and decline the offer. 2. Those who go to the video, are attending an event which is specifically designed to lure them further into the tunnel. Usually cult members, who are renowned for scaring new people away with their guru worshipping diatribe, are kept away from these events, unless they are bringing in fresh cannon fodder. 3. The next stage down the funnel is to attend a few more ‘introductory videos’, and get softened up for stage 4, the ‘instructor’. 4. When you get the idea that ‘knowledge’ is ‘an inner experience’, and Maharaji is the ‘giver’ or ‘teacher’, you’re ready to meet an instructor. These characters have been around since the cult came West in the late 60s, and have been called by different names- ‘mahatmas’, ‘initiators’, ‘instructors’, and, in the new ‘EST’ style fad that the cult seems to be entering, will probably be called ‘facilitators’, or ‘consciousness managers’ or something. Anyway, a ‘cult priest’ will interview you, and decide if you’ve been softened up enough to invite you along to a private session. 5. The private session takes place in a small, comfortable environment. The cult priest grills you, shows you a video, answers questions and determines if you are ‘ready for knowledge’, ie, ready to be initiated into the cult. Basically this means accepting that the meditation techniques you will be shown are an experience of ‘inner truth’, ‘your lifeforce’, or whatever way you feel most comfortable describing what religious folk call the ‘spirit’, or ‘soul’. (There has been a strong move away from ‘spiritual terminology’ within the cult, for the past few years.) It also means accepting that Maharaji is the only teacher who can show you this ‘inner truth’, or ‘knowledge’. When you’ve swallowed these two spoons of medecine (‘knowledge’ is ‘inner truth’, Maharaji is the one and only master of it.), then you’re ready for the next stage in the tunnel. 6. The ‘knowledge selection session’, is the final process before initiation into the cult. If you ‘pass’ the selection process (because by now, you should be hungry for truth and hungry to become a follower of Maharaji), you go through to the ‘knowledge session’, where you declare there is no other Master than Maharaji, and you understand that what you are about to experience is ‘precious inner peace, lifeforce etc’. Another fat fish, ready for the plate. 7. Finally of course, there is the ‘knowledge session’, where you are shown the techniques and made a member of the cult. After that, you can go to special meetings for cult members only, practice the meditation every morning and fill out a standing order. Welcome to ‘Guruworld’, where the only position in the organisation is prostrate before the master. It’s not always as I’ve described. Once the priests did the initiation, now they select and Maharaji does, mass initiation sessions himself. The packaging is always changing, and premies will always tell you, ‘Yes, indeed, it did used to be crazy. But it’s all changed now. They’re called ‘facilitators’, not ‘instructors’, he’s called a ‘teacher’ not a ‘guru’, it’s not called ‘a knowledge session’, it’s a ‘consciousness seminar’, ‘…or whatever. Basically, it’s designed to get you flat on the slab, ready for gutting. Your freewill, discrimination, morals, and of course your cash, will all be removed, then it’s into the freezer for a few years premie-ji, until an Ex’ comes along and pulls the plug, so you can thaw out. Or maybe the electricity fails, and you melt naturally. Luckily, like in ancient Egypt, your vital organs have been preserved in jars, and function as good as new, when restored. Did I get it right guys? Anth the Fish Finger.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:10:28 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: ****Best OF**** nomination Message:

That's pretty darn good. Think I'll print that one out and file it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:42:14 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Yeah, you got it right, alright, Anth Message:

Although don't you think it should be 'Anth the Fillet of Soul'?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:07:29 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: All Subject: What people will believe (OT) Message:

And you thought we were dumb for believing Maharaji's hocus pocus? Check this guy out. An Outpatient Exorcism (It Was Only a Crab) By SETH MYDANS AU, Indonesia — Where did that crab come from? With a casual flourish, Sukari Yasir pulled his hand from under his patient's gut and held up the crab, wet, whitish, wriggling slightly, about three inches long. 'It didn't hurt when it went in, so it doesn't hurt when it comes out,' said Mr. Sukari, 64, explaining why there was no exit wound. In his all-black outfit and black gaucho hat, his stethoscope around his neck and his medical tools in hand — a dagger and two Phillips screwdrivers — he seemed an unlikely medical man. But he is pretty typical around here — a dukun, or faith healer, who performs white magic to extract the cursed objects that black magicians have inserted into people's bodies to make them sick. 'This is a gift from God and I am just his instrument,' Mr. Sukari said as the crab crawled up his wrist. 'These are things that a doctor couldn't find. I don't make things up. I take animals out of people's bodies.' He poked at the back of another patient, one of eight who were sitting shirtless in the sun on a wooden bench. 'There's something in there, feel it?' he said, and some of the people who tried said they could. Mr. Sukari burrowed his hand beneath the man's rib cage and came out with a handful of rubble: three pebbles, a small crystal and a rusty nail. With a flip of the hand he tossed them onto the ground. A goat bleated nearby, and Mr. Sukari's trained parrot called from its cage: 'Allah!' 'I didn't feel anything,' said Masrian, a 45-year-old farmer who had been relieved of his crab. 'I was a little bit surprised.' He said he had been sick for about two years with an ailment that bewildered medical doctors. 'Half of my head is always hurting and there's a burning feeling in my nose,' he said. 'Also I have back problems.' Another patient, Sukran, 60, said: 'I used to be crazy. I stopped people in the marketplace and threatened them with machetes. I've been coming here for a year now and I feel better as long as I don't eat meat.' Faith healers — some mixing mysticism with chicanery — are a common feature of rural Indonesia, said Ronny Nitibaskara, an anthropologist at the University of Indonesia. Many, like Mr. Sukari, have studied for years, using fasting, prayers and training in traditional martial arts. People visit them for cures, to find missing property, to learn the future and to ward off evil. They pay what they can — some eggs, a chicken, a few thousand rupiah. 'People fear them and respect them,' Mr. Nitibaskara said. 'Their mistakes are excused and their word is accepted even though it is wrong and it is nonsense.' Many people in Indonesia appear to be unsure what to believe and many take the position that it is safest not to rule anything out. Almost everyone seems to have heard of mystics who can perform extraordinary feats, or to know someone who has witnessed them. One young man said he had a friend who had seen a mystic turn a peanut into a stone, though what the purpose might be was unclear. Some faith healers say they can fly or disappear or are invulnerable to harm. Mr. Sukari was charmingly evasive when asked if he had such powers. 'They say that I can fly, do you believe it?' he said. 'A helicopter flies like me. It's not that I can't disappear, but if I do I might not come back.' He did say, though, that when he rides on buses he is not always asked to pay a fare. 'Maybe it's that they can't see me,' he suggested. He was less modest about his cures, selling his patients magic pills and giving them verses to memorize that he said would make them immune to bullets. Mr. Sukari, an elfin man who cracks jokes even as he calls spirits from the vasty deep, said he trained for years in the arts of magic, learning to walk through fire, fasting at the bottom of a well and studying the dark secrets of his art. He does not say where he learned the dextrous hand movements that allow him to produce from the torsos of his patients an assortment of crabs, frogs, bats and cockroaches as well as screws, hinges, seashells, chicken bones, twigs, nails — most anything a person might find as he walks along the road. It is the ritual that makes it tempting to believe, along with Mr. Sukari's friendly charm. The cure begins with an evening session of prayer and diagnosis that precedes the morning surgery. As his caged birds and monkeys call from the yard outside, his patients sit shirtless on the floor of a darkened room as he examines their backs, mumbling incantations as he does so. He pokes with his fingers, slaps with the side of his dagger, scribbles on their skin with a ballpoint pen. He listens with his stethoscope and prods with his screwdrivers. One lights up with a small red light when he pushes a button. The other makes a beeping sound. 'Not much nutrition in the blood,' he said of one patient as his screwdriver beeped. And of another, 'Dirty blood, difficult to get the blood pressure.' Then, moving from one patient to another, he dug his fingers into pressure points and the patients grimaced and twisted, some of them rising involuntarily to their knees. The key diagnosis comes when the patient lies on his back and an egg is placed on his stomach. 'Instead of using an X-ray,' Mr. Sukari said, 'I use a chicken egg to find out what's going on inside.' And in any case, he said, these are not the kind of objects that an x- ray would detect. 'They are invisible to modern science.' As for the malevolent crab, Mr. Sukari placed it in a small plastic bag filled with water. Giving the patient, Mr. Masrian, a special prayer to recite, he told him to return the crab gently to a pond. What WON'T people believe?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:03:21 (EDT) From: Newsboy Email: None To: All Subject: Most of page 3, todays LONDON TIMES Message:

is devoted to two stories on Sai Baba. 'Three died after putting faith in Guru' and 'I sought peace and couldn't find it.' Adimittedley 'The TIMES' , arguably once a venerable media institution is now just another 'Murdoch rag' , nevertheless they devote 2/3rds of page 3 to the story with pics(offline version). 3 pics of three dead ex-followers. Big pic of SB and 2 pics of the Indian ashram. Appparently The UK Foreign Office is about to investigate SB and the UN cultural agency has cut ties with SB due to the sexual abuse issues. SB's teaching also taught in 500 UK schools. Hope the link to the TIMES works. [ Todays "The Times" ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:14:17 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Newsboy Subject: Thanks, here's the article Message:

Three die after putting faith in guru BY DOMINIC KENNEDY THREE British men have died mysteriously after becoming followers of an Indian mystic famed as a “god man” and miracle worker. Sai Baba’s activities are being studied by the Foreign Office which is considering issuing an unprecedented warning against the guru to travellers. The Times has learnt that three Britons have apparently taken their lives after placing hope in India’s most popular holy man. One of them had complained of being repeatedly sexually molested by Sai Baba at his ashram in Puttaparthi near Bangalore. Michael Pender, an HIV-positive student, was found dead at a London hostel after taking alcohol and painkillers. He had already tried to commit suicide at the holy man’s headquarters. Aran Edwards hanged himself at home in Cardiff after joining a Sai Baba support group and being encouraged to write to the guru to solve his psychological problems. Mr Edwards sent a flurry of anxious letters but was devastated after receiving no replies and being told that the guru did not read his mail. Andrew Richardson, a South Africa-born British national, jumped off a building in India shortly after visiting Sai Baba’s ashram. Among visitors who have paid respects to Sai Baba are the Duchess of York, the Prince of Wales’s architect Keith Critchlow, the cricketer Sachin Tendulkar and the Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee. Sai Baba’s message is being preached in more than 500 British schools through charities which claim to provide non-denominational education in “human values”. Tom Sackville, a former Home Office Minister, last night urged the Government to take decisive action to warn teachers and pilgrims of the dangers of becoming involved with Sai Baba. The guru’s reputation is plummeting after the United Nations cancelled a conference at his headquarters, issuing a condemnation of his alleged sex abuse of youths and boys. Unicef pulled out of a conference it was due to sponsor with the guru’s educational organisation in Puttaparthi last September. The UN’s cultural agency issued a trenchant statement: “The organisation is deeply concerned about widely reported allegations of sexual abuse involving youths and children that have been levelled at the leader of the movement in question, Sathya Sai Baba. “Whilst it is not for Unesco to pronounce itself in this regard, the organisation restates its firm moral and practical commitment to combating the sexual exploitation of children, in application of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which requires states to protect children from all forms of sexual exploitation and violence.” In hundreds of British schools, Sai Baba-influenced educational programmes on “human values” are currently being promoted as part of the National Curriculum. The Charity Commission met the trustees of one of the educational charities involved, the Sathya Sai Education in Human Values Trust UK, last year and “found no concerns”, a spokesman said. Mr Sackville, chairman of the anti-cult organisation Fair (Family Action Information and Resource), said that he had successfully intervened to persuade a girls’ school to reject a Sai Baba-inspired course. “Schools are not on their guard because at official level they are not given any steer,” Mr Sackville said. “Some other countries would have had official warnings.” He said that Whitehall was strongly opposed to letting the British Government apply sanctions to cults, which civil servants describe respectfully as “new religious movements”. As for the Charity Commission’s clean bill of health to the Sai Baba educational organisation, Mr Sackville said: “There’s a lot of very naive people around in these government institutions.” He called on the Foreign Office to issue a warning against Sai Baba along the lines of recommendations to travellers to beware the dangers of Aids and violence abroad. The Foreign Office is believed to be considering putting out just such advice.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:37:44 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Jim Subject: :: link to another Sai Baba article :: Message:

ISSUE 1982 Saturday 28 October 2000 [With list of external links] Divine downfall The guru Sai Baba has left India only once, yet his devotees across the world are estimated at up to 50 million. They worship him as a living god who, at the very least, can change people's lives and possibly even work miracles. But now his followers are bitterly divided by allegations that their guru has for years been systematically sexually abusing boy disciples summoned to his presence. By Mick Brown Follow the link for the article. -a0aji [ Divine Downfall: Telegraph Article ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:09:02 (EDT) From: ivan.w.peters,aberdeen Email: None To: a0aji Subject: Re: :: link to another Sai Baba article :: Message:

to the hiding behind anonymity -aOaji to mr mickbrown and to others . what has the homosexual/alleged boy sex/ satanism of the sadly deceptive sai baba to ddo with prem pal rawat/maharaji or his beautiful faithful god -fearing wife marolyn. mr brown over the years have you sought the one true god of moses yeshua/jesus and maharaji or have you followed the devil/satan of sai baba afew years ago iread abook by an ex follower of sai baba called lord of the air - written by a man who came to jesus, slotus feet and in that book sai baba ,s sinful homosexuality wasexposed. dont dare try to link that homosexual alleged boy molester with maharaji who lives preaches and teaches holiness in heterosexual marriage. is mick brown alaw -breaker in the realm of drugs - he certainly has mis -taught many to so do via the late sinful ,drug condoning internatinaltimes,frendz and other occultist media rags. ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:12:17 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: chris@hafey.com To: ivan.w.peters,aberdeen Subject: My Name is Chris Hafey Message:

to the hiding behind anonymity -aOaji to mr mickbrown and to others . what has the homosexual/alleged boy sex/ satanism of the sadly deceptive sai baba to ddo with prem pal rawat/maharaji or his beautiful faithful god -fearing wife marolyn. --- But you can call me Mister Tibbs. I think people see that when you have one like Sai Baba, you can have another like Sai Baba. It reveals a pattern found in messianic cult leaders. Actually, I'm hard-pressed to name a messianic cult leader who hasn't engaged in sex in a wildly inappropriate way. These men (or women, case may be) are held to a higher standard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:02:44 (EDT) From: Tammy Faye b) Email: None To: ivan.w.peters,aberdeen Subject: Praise the lord and pass the collection plate Message:

Oh, I'll take the high road and you'll take the low road and I'll get to Scotland afore ye. Is it true, Mr Peter's what you say about Maharaji? Is he really Jesus come again? Praise the lord and pass me my false eyelashes.:C)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:34:47 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: ivan.w.peters,aberdeen Subject: Why do religious freaks write so poorly? Message:

Is this a sign of some sort? Did Moses/Jesus/Yeshua inspire you to do this? Or was that achoice you made many years ago -- religion or education? Just asking. You say Marolyn's a God-fearing woman. In fact, she's married to him, right? How do you explain her affairs?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:50:37 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Thanks, here's the 2nd article Message:

For those who didn't notice the other other article I sought peace and couldn't find it' BY MICHAEL DYNES IN DURBAN AND DOMINIC KENNEDY MICHAEL PENDER, a student, hoped that Sai Baba would be able to cure him of HIV. Like thousands of devotees from around the world, Mr Pender went on a pilgrimage to Sai Baba’s ashram in Puttaparthi, southern India, expecting to find magic and divinity. Instead Mr Pender, known as “Mitch”, was found dead after taking tablets in the lonely bedroom of a hostel for the homeless in Highbury, North London. He was 23. Kathleen Ord, who first told him of Sai Baba’s teachings, has since destroyed her books and videos on the holy man. She said: “I blame myself in many ways because, if I hadn’t introduced them, Mitch would probably be alive now. That’s what he went to India for, thinking he’d find a cure. “He tried to commit suicide in the ashram. He had overdosed on drugs more than once. He had some strange, very powerful experiences there. There was something sexual that was frightening.” Her son, Keith, has given a detailed account of what Mr Pender. The guru flattered the British student by describing him as “the reincarnation of St Michael”. Mr Ord’s evidence, posted on the Internet, states: “He told me that the very first private interview that he had with SB was a sexual encounter. “At first he couldn’t believe any of this was happening. It felt unreal and frightening. But then after the first interview he thought SB must have been showing him something about himself . . . that there must have been some spiritual or ‘divine’ explanation behind the swami’s actions. “But after the fourth interview, he became very despondent and confused about the whole thing; each interview was a repetition of the first . . . Baba ‘materialised’ an emerald ring on the fifth interview and gave him money on the sixth. “After telling me of his experiences, Michael became quite depressed.” On January 12, 1990, Mr Pender’s body was found by thesupervisor of his hostel. Traces of paracetamol and alcohol were found in his blood, but a pathologist found it impossible to determine if they were lethal doses. An open verdict was recorded at an inquest in St Pancras. Aran Edwards, a classical guitarist and postgraduate theology student at the University of Wales in Newport, joined Sai Baba’s Bath and Bristol support group. David Bailey, a concert pianist from Conwy, North Wales, who had become one of the guru’s closest British aides, met Aran with the group. “He was sort of persuaded that Sai Baba looked after him, did everything for him and that he should write to Sai Baba with his problems,” Mr Bailey said. “He was quite an ill person, mentally unstable and needed orthodox help. In the end, he wrote a couple of dozen or more letters to Sai Baba. The group had told him this was what to do. “He used to ring me from phone boxes pleading with me. There were 35 phone calls, I suppose . . . he was absolutely desperate that I should talk to Sai Baba for him because he was in such a state and had written all these letters which he had sent out and hadn’t had a reply. Could I please help because I was Sai Baba’s right-hand man? “At the end I said, ‘Wake up. He doesn’t even read these letters’. He was so distraught about the situation, he decided to commit suicide.” Aran Edwards, a single man, was found hanged from a staircase at his home in Cardiff, on April 19, 1999. He was 37. A suicide verdict was recorded by the coroner. Stuart Jones, of the Bath and Bristol group, said: “He was a very fragile kind of person, very sensitive, very gentle in nature. If you are thinking there is a link, I know for a fact there wasn’t a link in the sense of all the allegations going about Sai Baba. He was in distress long before.” Aran never visited Sai Baba in India. But Andrew Richardson, a British national born in South Africa, did. He made a pilgrimage to Sai Baba’s ashram, booking in for a week, but mysteriously leaving after only two days. On September 19, 1996, Mr Richardson travelled to Bangalore and hired a taxi at the railway station to one of the city’s tallest buildings, the State Bank of Mysore. Mr Richardson flung banknotes and travellers’ cheques in the air, ran into the bank and up the stairs to the eighth floor, where he smashed a window and leapt 84ft to the ground, killing himself. He was 33. Two letters were found on his body. One to Sai Baba outlined his quest for spiritual enlightenment. The second was a suicide note saying he was in a deep depression: “I came to India in search of peace but could not find it.” His mother, Deirdre, at her home near Pietermaritzburg, said: “Andrew wanted to see Sai Baba, but was also heading to Calcutta to see Mother Teresa . . . All he wanted to do was work with the poor.” *************************************************************** Very sad stories.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:20:05 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Extra, extra ... Message:

Yes Jim , you posted one of the articles. Underneath it there is also a second article entitled ' I sought peace and couldn't find it'. Did you see that? However theres a third , much longer article, in the TIMES 2 Supplement but unfortunately where I am now, I don't have accss to a scanner. The third article is really interesting. Five things caught my eye. 1. when the Indian Prime minister ( one of his devottes ) visited him , SB produced a gold watch out of nowhere. Unfortunately it was privately videofilmed and clearly showed a sleight of hand. The video was NEVER allowed to be shown in India but has been shown elsewhere. 2. Four young male long time devottess attacked him with knives, killing two bodyguards. They fled into a room and locked themselves in .Indian police later shot all four dead. 3. James Masons ( late brit actor) wife was big devottee. Left his £13m estate to baba ....children contesting it but cult holding money in their own overseas trust. 4.. Devotees vehemntly deny sex molestation charges. Claim sai Baba is touching an energy point under male testicles to produce cosmic energy uplift. 5. THIS IS FUNNY....REMIND YOU OF lg? ......'Dee Puri at the London HQ , denounces the suggestion that SB takes money from the rich, pointing out that 'at HIS 28yo London premises entrance is free. There is no money going to Baba at all......' As for the suggestions of sexual harrasment she told THE TIMES ' I don't want to talk about it because there is no such thing. I think such conversations disturb me and my beliefs. The organisation is most unhappy that you have tried to hurt us. Nobody will speak to you unless you want to write something which is truth, which is not controversial. 'As far as I'm concerned , Baba is a great great guru. Thirty years I have been a devotee of Baba and millions and millions of people are, so I would very respectfully ask you please not to put that sort of question to me' OR IN GLASSER/EV SPEAK ' Thanks for sharing. Now leave me alone'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:21:24 (EDT) From: Newsboy Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Shit blown my holiday hideaway cover NT Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:39:33 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: A snippet of Lifes Great for you, Jim Message:

Wango Tango posted this message: Nice sentiment, I think From CG's revamped webpage: *********************** People Who Simply Don't Practice Knowledge: People can always decide that they want something else in their lives, or choose to walk other paths. That is as true the day after receiving Knowedge as it is 20 years later. Someone who makes that choice with no malice is simply a person who does not practice Knowledge anymore. I certainly bear them no ill-will, and I don't know anyone who does. For me, that comes down to 'live and let live.' Being an avowed 'ex-premie' means something very different. It is an affirmative, conscious and deliberate choice to participate in a destructive and hostile mechanism. No one was ever 'forced' or 'tricked' into practicing Knowledge. To claim that you were is to disempower yourself; to refuse to take resonsibility for your own life and your own choices. It is lazy, self-centered and ultimately destructive. There are benign, gentle and funny people who spend time with the critics out of boredom, nostalgia or curiosity. I think that these folks know deep in their hearts that there is something very special about Knowledge and Maharaji, otherwise they wouldn't spend the time that they do thinking about him and talking about Knowledge. I think that it is very easy to be confused, and that when a person is confused, talking only to other confused people has a way of making it worse. ************************ Food for thought, no? Loaf responded thus: erm... its incorrect thinking.. and this is why. KNOWLEDGE has an effect. The culture and the practice of K does cause changes.. I am sure we all agree, otherwise it wouldnt 'Work'. Now then... as long as you dont resent those changes... all well and good. BUT if an individual wants to 'reboot' or 're-install their own Operating system' THEN you find out that knowledge and Maharaji have qualities which are not so nice... and the more you see this, the more your system rejects it.. and the more it rejects it the more insidious does the damage seem. It is an illusion to say 'simply walk away'.. and in this matter (as much as maharaji's own lifestyle, the difference between theory and practice are revealed. The MORE you have loved maharaji and Knowledge, the harder it is to walk away. Not because 'oh I will miss having him around' - but because the patterns of thought that have been strenfgthened under his influence look a bit shoddy out in the open. Thoughts such as 'This world has nothing for me' or 'Who is really mine' or 'I dont need this hassle' actually are very VERY damaging. You cant get the toothpaste back in the tube folks.. so dont accuse people who dont like it of complaining unneccessarily. Until you question the whole game (which is your right after all) you wont realise what a pickle you are in. So keep your heads down, keep practicing.. stay with him. You have no choice, not without some very dirty laundry. Loaf Then I butted in and said: Beauty is truth and truth is beauty You said: ''KNOWLEDGE has an effect. The culture and the practice of K does cause changes.. I am sure we all agree, otherwise it wouldnt 'Work'. ''Now then... as long as you dont resent those changes... all well and good. BUT if an individual wants to 'reboot' or 're-install their own Operating system' THEN you find out that knowledge and Maharaji have qualities which are not so nice... and the more you see this, the more your system rejects it.. and the more it rejects it the more insidious does the damage seem.'' Loaf, maybe we don't mean exactly the same thing when we use the word Knowledge. By Knowledge I mean the path of beauty, as the poet Keats said ''beauty is truth and truth is beauty.'' I would be more blunt than you and say that Knowledge shows you how to tap into that beauty and that you do not have an option to just walk away from it as Maharaji has advised. He used to say, ''If you leave this Knowledge you will splinter into a thousand pieces'' or ''you will rot like a truckload of vegetables.'' Nowadays he says, ''You cannot come home without the master.'' Once you have walked the path of beauty you cannot turn away from it. The mistake that Maharaji has made is to tie that path to him because, when you decide that you no longer like him (but still love Knowledge,) then a lot of ''splintering'' and ''rotting'' takes place. It is very painful to leave Maharaji. That's why some expremies are so angry and upset and feel hatred for Maharaji. Some divorces are messy. But if it is not a good marriage the relief sets in soon and you begin to realise that the path of beaty is still there and that the challenge of ''re-installing your own Operating system'' is exciting and liberating. The only reason why I got involved in the premie/expremie debate is because I know so many premies who are miserable because they are no longer comfortable with Maharaji (a master who hires expensive New York lawyers and sanctions websites in his name to intimidate his critics into silence and threaten their rights to free speech.) SC said to WT: You 'think' it is a nice sentiment? he he ...and every last word true! treading carefully amogst the thorns eh Wango?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:09:17 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Wango Tango is desperately Trying to cover ass Message:

What is the matter with you. This is not nice sentiment. This is Wango Tango trying to cover his ass. have you ever read his posts. Did you read his post the day the CAC came out. I bet he knew about it before it came out PAT. Why are so blinded by their flailing attempt to cover a piece of their ass? I don't get it. WT say: I certainly bear them no ill-will, and I don't know anyone who does. For me, that comes down to 'live and let live.' Apparently THAT IS A LIE. Wango Tango is accused of being Charles Glasser in the first place. And their is a lot of proof that they have been UGLY horrendous people who are desperately trying to save face. And the fact that the CAC site is UP. PROVES PREMIES ARE LIARS at best and CRIMINALS at worse. Furthermore, the cultmembers (WT included rejoiced when he and his puerile sidekicks saw the sight) have reduced themselves to Blackmail, endangerment of a child and serious libel. This is a serious offense. Fun guys? Puh..leeeze. The posts speak for themselves and this CAC site speaks for itself. Many of WT posts prove he is a hypocrite DESPERATELY trying to cover his ass right now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:49:44 (EDT) From: Thelma formerly Pat:C) Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Scared to post under my own name Message:

Here's another LG snippet for you. Bjorne said: Technically it is according to international laws of Human rights illegal to state that someone is running an illegal operation, if the the persons are not judged. However if the persons are judged later, there will of cours be no libel case. I libel cases it is the person who comes with libel statements that has to prove his statement is correct. The person who has been libelled does not need to prove his innocence. Carlos responded to Bjorne thus: Bjorn, the law in several countries is based on the Code of law of Emporer Bonapapate, and the principle is that s/he is presumed to be guilty until proven innocent but must be afforded a chance to prove hih/her innocense. In the rest of the countries, where law is based on British, or Commonwealth law, the presumption is that the accused is inocent until proven guilty in a CRIMINAL case. Guilt or innocence don't apply in civil cases, just the establishment in favor of the accuser by a 'prepondeance of the evidence' (The evidence has to establish there is more than a 50% likelihood the defendant did what the plaintif said he did.) And truth IS a defense in libel cases. But the CAC guys said they researched everything real carefully before posting anything and then but up a lot of stuff about the wrong Pat Conlon! in a civil suit by that guy, they'll lose. Unfortunately I don't think what they did to Sir Dave rises to the level of CRIMINAL blackmail (it certainly is blackmail in a moral sense). And every thing else clearly gives them civil but not criminal exposure, in my opinion. So the most we can hope for is that they'll lose everything they own but won't go to jail. Pity. Thelma formerly known as Pat:C) hater of snakes. PS I trust Carlos eventhough I disagree with his religion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:11:57 (EDT) From: Thelma formerly Pat:C) Email: None To: Thelma formerly Pat:C) Subject: From LG re your banning Message:

Rick asked CD: What are the rules concerning posting here? What are the parameters that will result in a post or thread being deleted? I was looking for a thread started by Joe a few days ago that was entirely deleted. Did you do that? Why? What are the rules regarding being banned from this forum? What rules did Jim violate that resulted in his banishment? Is criticism of maharaji allowed here? CD replied: >What are the rules regarding being banned from this forum? Obsessive posting of messages not related to the primary focus of 'Lifes Great' is a possible grounds for being banned. You can agree or disagree with 'Lifes Great' and present your case. That is fine. Constant whining, reposting of declarations from F8 and personal attacks are not OK. Banning somebody is a last resort to this place becoming an undesirable street corner with high wattage megaphones. People who are familiar with the posts of Jim and Deborah know why they can't post here at this time. This is not rocket science. They have their own forum to promote their agendas which are not the focus of this site. They also can set up their own web site just as easily as this one was set up. I do not condone personal attacks against Jim or Deborah. Those types of posts will be deleted as I am made aware of them since Jim and Deborah can not repsond directly on this site at this time. >Is criticism of maharaji allowed here? Yes, if it does not become obsessive. The F8 site is the forum dedicated to messages and discussions critical of M. The intent of this forum is to discuss 'Lifes Great'. Sharing of personal successes and inspiration is encouraged. Though we have problems and tragedies to overcome, I believe that the greatest successes will be achieved by learning about and being reminded of the great potential we all really do have. BZ responded to CD thus: rules, you want to live by rules, remember what school was like with all those rules. Get real. What happened to freedom of speech anyway. Say what you what to say, is this site so precious to your experience that it matters what someone might say. To which Carlos responded: BZ, the freedom of speach we enjoy under the protection is freedom from arbitrary limitation of speach imposed by the goverment, or in public areas. But a place of work, a club, or an internet forum is NOT a public place, even if open to the public. So what you are really complaining about is censorship in a place where that is NOT constitutionally prohibited. And cesorship for cause, to boot, Jim had the intent of this forum pointed out to him a number of times. But he chose to ignore that, probably, IMO, becuase his agenda of 'attack premies' isn't aproprite here but he edoesn't want to give it up when he's here. CD, that's why I suggest some preliminarg steps that are milder consequences than banning, and a panel with unanimity being required, or at least a majority. But I know that's your call; this is a request and a suggestion, not a demand. Carlos is a democrat not a cult fascist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:55:20 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Thelma formerly Pat:C) Subject: What a fucking joke! Message:

Let me see if I've got this right. One, two or more premies are on an announced mission to destroy some exe's lives (yes, Anth, I know. Some of the CAC profiles, like yours, never rise above farce. Some do, some don't), trying to ruin our livelihoods, reputations, etc. EV, itself, sets up this fake lawsuit against Jagdeo and then immediately backhands the very victims it would ever need as witnesses if it really was serious, premies, like Catweasel, threaten to smash me with a baseball bat, guys like Bjorn continue to cut through delicate issues with a blunt, trusy butter knife -- held the wrong way! -- Glasser, Andersen, SC, WT, R2, dave and others dismiss all exes complaints as the mad ravings of imbalanced, crazies or charter 'Hate Club' members, rather than discuss the issues substantively, and CD just waits for opportunities to brag about his bad taste in music and gross GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome), and what? I said something wrong? Too funny!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:47:40 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Thanks Pat reassuring for a new ex [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:52:09 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Peg Subject: You're welcome, Peg Message:

I hope you read it after I cleaned up the mistake (pasted something in twice.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:01:14 (EDT) From: one thing is obvious Email: None To: All Subject: Mr. Maha and his co-conspirators Message:

have been greatly affected by the on-line presence of those who see him for what he truly is. By affected, I mean bottom line. If the bank account was not being affected there would be no need to even recognize the detractors. Defections are happening more than ever. Contributions and sponsorships of cult broadcasts are not increasing. Desparate measures are called for to stop the exodus. Expect more shit to happen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:22:17 (EDT) From: Julian Email: None To: one thing is obvious Subject: Maharaji shows his true colors Message:

Nothing can stop the exodus now. These are the final, flailing and desperate attempts of a nasty little man with a nasty little cult to save his miserable little kingdom. The CAC website has shown Maharaji's true colors. He has no regard for ordinary people. He is not worthy of being called a master nor is he worthy to advise or lecture people on life. His only strategy is to try and destroy his critics and force them off the net. He is even trying to ruin their livelyhoods. And yet with every step he now takes he simply shows what a thoroughly reprehensible and vicious character he is. His critics have been moderate in their actions. They have merely spoken of their own experiences with Maharaji and knowledge. They have merely asked Maharaji for answers. They have all shown themselves to be reasonable people. Maharaji should pack up and go home now. He is an embarassment to his own followers. Everyone can now see what a vicious, uncaring and self centered person he is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:21:17 (EDT) From: What is the procedure Email: None To: one thing is obvious Subject: for stopping my automatic Message:

monthly contribution to the cult? Must I just notify EV or should I also notify my bank/credit card company that I no longer wish to have this money automatically charged to my account?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:14:13 (EDT) From: If all else fails Email: None To: What is the procedure Subject: Re: for stopping my automatic Message:

cancel your present account, set up another bank account transfer your funds or cancel your credit card and have them reissue you a new one [ Graphic Link ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:11:08 (EDT) From: make sure Dr Crusher Email: a0aji@balyogeshwar_paramhans.edu To: What is the procedure Subject: circumvents your Borg chip first [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:08:20 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: What is the procedure Subject: That's a bit radical, don't you think? Message:

You sure you want to do that? Myself, I've given Maharaji a month to get his shit together. If I don't see any real improvements by then, yeah, at that point I'm going to cancel my monthly contribution. But I just don't want to get into this weird scenario where, say Maharaji really does 'get better'. Then what? I've got to set up the monthly transfer all over again? Naw, it's easier this way. One month, Maharaji, or else I really will cancel my donations! :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:09:59 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: What is the procedure Subject: Re: for stopping my automatic Message:

In the UK, it's enough to just tell your bank, although if it's a direct debit, the receiving bank will continue to try to collect it, so as a courtesy you should tell EV as well. Having said that I don't think EV qualifies as an organisation that can issue direct debits, so just tell your bank. Make sure you ask for confirmation that the regular payment has been concelled. John

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:27:31 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: What is the procedure Subject: Re: for stopping my automatic Message:

monthly contribution to the cult? Must I just notify EV or should I also notify my bank/credit card company that I no longer wish to have this money automatically charged to my account? --- You must inform both EV AND your bank IN WRITING and precede it and follow it up with a phone call.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:41:05 (EDT) From: Thanks Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Stopping my automatic monthly contribution [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:32:02 (EDT) From: peg Email: None To: one thing is obvious Subject: Re: Mr. Maha and his co-conspirators Message:

My husband has just stopped his contribution after I showed him this site. Another friend I told said that a day or two later she met a couple who were also 'raging ' about being led up the garden path. Information really is so powerful. What can they do next then? I don't think there is anything that will work. Ohmygod I am just remembering tha feeling back in '72 of being in at the beginning of something Is that what i'm looking for again? What's going on anyway? Help my brain is scrambling. Big questions what is true? do I exist? sorry folks time for a nice cup of tea.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:56:48 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: peg Subject: yes, Peg it is interesting Message:

We came to M and K because we wanted truth and beauty in our lives. Now we have seen that he does not speak or live the truth and sanctions ugliness in his name. PS In case you don't know - if I post anything under Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch - that's me having fun.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:11:35 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: All Subject: can we have a top of page link to CAC here ? Message:

it would make my life easier.. as I dont feel happy calling it one of my 'favourites'. Ho hum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 02:16:08 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Noooooooo Message:

pleeaatzzz. Use this I don't like cacas

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:22:38 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: All Subject: This was posted on Lifes Great... and my reply Message:

From CG's revamped webpage: *********************** People Who Simply Don't Practice Knowledge: People can always decide that they want something else in their lives, or choose to walk other paths. That is as true the day after receiving Knowedge as it is 20 years later. Someone who makes that choice with no malice is simply a person who does not practice Knowledge anymore. I certainly bear them no ill-will, and I don't know anyone who does. For me, that comes down to 'live and let live.' Being an avowed 'ex-premie' means something very different. It is an affirmative, conscious and deliberate choice to participate in a destructive and hostile mechanism. No one was ever 'forced' or 'tricked' into practicing Knowledge. To claim that you were is to disempower yourself; to refuse to take resonsibility for your own life and your own choices. It is lazy, self-centered and ultimately destructive. There are benign, gentle and funny people who spend time with the critics out of boredom, nostalgia or curiosity. I think that these folks know deep in their hearts that there is something very special about Knowledge and Maharaji, otherwise they wouldn't spend the time that they do thinking about him and talking about Knowledge. I think that it is very easy to be confused, and that when a person is confused, talking only to other confused people has a way of making it worse. ************************ Food for thought, no? MY response (which i am quite proud of which is why I are posting it here) !! erm... its incorrect thinking.. and this is why. KNOWLEDGE has an effect. The culture and the practice of K does cause changes.. I am sure we all agree, otherwise it wouldnt 'Work'. Now then... as long as you dont resent those changes... all well and good. BUT if an individual wants to 'reboot' or 're-install their own Operating system' THEN you find out that knowledge and Maharaji have qualities which are not so nice... and the more you see this, the more your system rejects it.. and the more it rejects it the more insidious does the damage seem. It is an illusion to say 'simply walk away'.. and in this matter (as much as maharaji's own lifestyle), the difference between theory and practice are revealed. The MORE you have loved maharaji and Knowledge, the harder it is to walk away. Not because 'oh I will miss having him around' - but because the patterns of thought that have been strenfgthened under his influence look a bit shoddy out in the open. Thoughts such as 'This world has nothing for me' or 'Who is really mine' or 'I dont need this hassle' actually are very VERY damaging. You cant get the toothpaste back in the tube folks.. so dont accuse people who dont like it of complaining unneccessarily. Until you question the whole game (which is your right after all) you wont realise what a pickle you are in. So keep your heads down, keep practicing.. stay with him. You have no choice, not without some very dirty laundry. Loaf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:10:11 (EDT) From: !wantabadge Email: None To: Loaf Subject: The absolute audacity . . . Message:

Hi there everyone As at the end of any personal relationship, a trite cliché, such 'refuse to take responsibility for your life” is anathema to the experience, the reality, the love, time spent, attention paid, and many other qualities that go into a 'beautiful relationship,' (as you felt it to be at that time.) Though the relationship might evaporate, feelings don't evaporate as readily, and may change into even more complex dilemmas; the longer and deeper the relationship was, the more indefinable, confusing and traumatic an ending is likely to be. And nothing is more insulting than to be told these rather stupid and meaningless cliches at a time of intense soul-searching . . . Therefore, the biggest worry to me, is the authority with which this 'premie' wrote (and does he, worryingly, represent all other 'premies') in speaking with such superficiality when faced with intelligent, rational thought, discussion and concern over what has been for many people THE most significant relationship in their entire lives: that which included devotion. I consider Devotion to be a quality of the soul and is usually only found in close, intimate, and probably familial relationships where one presumes a depth of trust and unconditional love, eg mother and child. To me one of the highest qualities of the meaning of life itself lies in this realm, and to dismiss it so lightly is at the very least, irreverent. Are you seriously expecting me to accept that this man is actually experiencing a state of calm, serenity peace and bliss? So, when faced with someone allegedly devoted to the doctrines of unconditional love and devotion, but who is actually demonstrating judgmental antipathy, together with dismissiveness and divisiveness in his bandying of that modern word 'choice' (80's psychobabble) around, an even deeper sense of unease sets in as to what exactly I have, in reality, spent the last 29 years unquestioningly aspiring to. I am deeply disturbed by the pious vacuousness currently shown as apparently representing m, his aspirations, values and life's mission which I understand as bringing 'this experience' to the world(?). So is 'this experience' a 'choice'? What exact credentials does this 'premie' hold, in order to decree judgement on anyone, whoever called themselves a premie, at any time whatsoever, since premie (lover) was someone whom m alone created. The 'Experience of Knowledge' is alluding me nowadays, because my original eternal triangle satsang, service and meditation existed purely in the realm of being at those lotus feet which was outside and completely separate from any other worldly experience. The contract as I then understood it, would bring me 'this experience' (nirvana, shangrila, the holy grail, and even samhadi, with any luck, aka as Grace.) Why is it that I am now unable to define my current 'experience' as The Eternal and Divine Love, freely promised, since I have left no stone unturned in my last 29 years of 'practice.' So is this 'premie' now going to tell me where I stand between me and My Maker? Does he have the terms and conditions of the entire Heavenly Realm, and did I miss something when the badges were being given out? Has this person been appointed to categorise the human race. As far as I am concerned everyone who requested and received knowledge from m did at one time in their life even if only for one moment had a sincere desire. Further comment on this is absolutely no one else’s business. The bigotted nature of this posting has triggered me into my first posting because I still believe that the only person who can ultimately address all the unrest and unease of the current issues Is M himself? I really have no understanding of why he isn’t doing this, himself. As m used to say “there is nothing between me and you. . . “ except apparently the entire organisation and his brother. I am supposed to believe this person has agya. Are you serious?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:23:46 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: !wantabadge Subject: Beatifully said -- how're you doing? Message:

You got a name? You gotta have at least a handle or something. If you like you can use my middle name, Irwin. Trust me, it's not as if I use it all that much. You're so right that there's a mile wide canyon between how the premies approach these discussions and how the rest of us do. I guess it's easier for the exes in that we've already accepted our loss. There is no Santa Claus. Boo hoo. The premies, on the other hand, are clutching at the curtains, afraid to stand, afraid to fall, just clutching. One book I found excellent regarding how the cult and how we got into it is The Guru Papers, a link for which I've included above. Interesting reading for sure. [ The Guru Papers ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 16:30:09 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Epilogue from The Guru Papers Message:

Epilogue: Where Do We Go From Here? Behind the masks of authoritarian power is the idea that there is some greater intelligence that knows what is best for others. What this always amounts to is that someone either claims to have that intelligence, or to have a direct line into properly interpreting it. This can occur in any realm and in differing degrees. Its most extreme forms occur when moral superiority is linked to infallibility. The image of the guru represents the epitome of this construction, which is the reason for this book's title. Often included in this is the corollary that the authority cares more about your well-being than you do, and can do so because of being selfless. Whether or not a state of ultimate selflessness or infallibility is achievable by anyone can be debated. Then too, there is the question of how anyone could be certain someone else really is in such a state. What is clear, however, is that obeying others because they claim to be morally superior, or to have an inside track to the truth, not only breeds corruption and lies, but removes people from personal responsibility. We use the development of the individual as a metaphor to help describe our view of humanity's past, where it finds itself to date, and where it needs to go. In this analogy, prehistory is like humanity's infancy where, as with infants, the prime need is survival. During this stage individuals' lives were totally dependent on their immediate small band. With the coming of agriculture, the species moved into its childhood. As with a child, this period was marked by growth and expansion. As the population mushroomed, small group interdependency was replaced by ever larger authoritarian hierarchies. It was here that the still predominant authoritarian forms, including our current moralities, were initiated. The industrial revolution and tapping into nature's powers through science accelerated development and expansion, moving us into adolescence. Youth is characterized by great self-absorption. Adolescents play with their newly discovered powers without much knowledge or concern for consequences--especially consequences for others. In adolescence there is often rebellion against adult authority, but not against authoritarianism. Teenagers generally look to or construct new gods and idols to follow. Or they develop a misplaced faith in their own point of view, or that of their peers, by ignoring any information that does not fit. This stance of unchallengeability that is directed toward other authorities is itself authoritarian. Adolescence is also marked by feeling and acting as if one were immortal. A key element of becoming an adult is facing one's mortality. Doing so can bring a shift in the focus of life, which in turn reorganizes basic habits. Upon seeing aging and eventually dying as part of life, the question then becomes how to do so with care and elegance. Adulthood is a time when acting out of longer-term implications becomes necessary instead of insouciant short-term gratifications. The emphasis turns more to care and maintenance, and one must begin to get a handle on excesses that the aging body can no longer ignore. One realizes that although death is inevitable, one can affect not only the length, but also the quality of life by one's actions. Just as the movement from adolescence to adulthood rarely occurs without some struggle, adjusting to the reality of mortality rarely occurs without some denial. We view humanity as a whole as likewise struggling with the necessity of leaving its adolescence behind, because it too is facing its mortality. That the species will someday vanish, as will our sun go nova, is not the issue. Upon facing the possibility of imminent extinction through self-destructiveness, the real issue is can people shift their habits to prolong both the length and quality of life on this planet? Similar to the individual, this would, in the species, include a shift in values and behavior to greater preservation and care. As in infancy, humans are again collectively confronted with the tenuousness of existence. The difference is that now we are the danger; but we also have the necessary self-awareness to realize that our survival or demise is in our own hands. As with the individual, this confrontation with death is part of the developmental process that forces a reexamination of values and priorities, which must include how our actions today impact future viability. This is essential in order to grow up, as a person and as a species. Another necessary element in becoming an adult is realizing that ultimately others cannot know what's best for you. Authoritarian power, whether political or ideological, has been the major form of control throughout the history of our species' childhood and youth. This includes looking for a savior to make things right. The very idea of a savior contains the assumption that such a person knows what's better for you than you do, thus making whatever the presumed savior says unchallengeable. The savior approach to problem-solving not only keeps people childish, it is the basic mode of the old paradigm. It has also justified the greatest violence and abuses. The old paradigms all have some authority--be it a leader, wise man, guru, avatar, representative of god, or prophet--telling the rest of us what life is about and how to lead it. How to replace this old methodology that we are outgrowing is a major issue facing humanity. The past by its nature has a strong pull--a weighty authority and an implicit credibility. It is natural for solutions that worked in the past to be given priority. This is the power of custom, habit, and tradition, for existing paths are easier to take. It is also natural to believe the answer still lies in the old solutions, but that they just need to be done better, or implemented with more forcefulness. This is a reasonable course until it becomes clear that trying to utilize old forms better makes things worse. That point has been reached, and so the past no longer holds the key. When old paths lead to a dead end, the solutions that worked before become part of the problem. This is why the need for a paradigm shift is in the air. Where to go from here must come from the interacting perspectives of living people exercising their will not only to survive, but to create a world where there is a future. Hope lies in the possibility that our self-destructiveness is not our true nature, but rather that we have the intelligence and courage to change even the deepest patterns, should this be necessary. It is now necessary; and fortunately change is propelled by confronting a dead end. The old systems of belief, morality, and also of the way power has been constructed, protected, and used have served humanity to bring it where it is today, but are no longer serving. They have become self-destructive. If humanity is to grow up and develop its enormous potential for creativity, it must also face the realities of its destructiveness. In these papers we have painted only a partial picture of how authoritarianism runs deep in the psyches and structures of humanity. The larger work Control, of which this book is a part, will examine a greater range of institutions, issues, and beliefs, showing their authoritarian basis. We do so because what precedes and accelerates change is an awareness not only that change is needed, but also why it is needed. This book does not offer programmatic solutions in the form of specific content. It does offer a different way of conceptualizing both problems and solutions. First and foremost, it aims to show that if the process of change is authoritarian, it is not change at all. What is basically putting humanity at risk is its technologically leveraged capacity for violence toward itself and Earth's ecosystems. This combined with authoritarian hierarchies structurally produces not only corruption, but the likelihood of those on top using those below uncaringly. During humanity's infancy when the group's well-being was linked with caring for every individual, all children were protected and cared for by the group. Now children, the future of the species, get lost in the shuffle, especially if their parents are incapable or unwilling to care for them. This points to one final example of the dead end of our present course. One of the greatest sources of violence on the planet is unwanted, uncared for, unloved children. Such children as they grow older are not only typically angry and prone to violence, but are potential time-bombs that can capriciously explode and destroy whatever is around them. A world is being created that is full of people without hope, often driven by hatred and envy, who do not care about their own lives, let alone yours. How can such people really care if life on this planet continues or not! The worldwide increase in population coupled with an increasing discrepancy between haves and have-nots creates more and more people without hope. When a large segment of the population lives without hope, it is dangerous for everyone. If we are to survive, what is needed are people who have realistic hope for a better future and who value themselves enough to care about others and the world at large. This would involve forging a viable morality that makes the self-worth and well-being of all children primary. Thus society as a whole must consider itself the parents of all its children, not leaving the responsibility for their care only with legal parents. The construction of such a morality is the job of all of us. But if its basis is authoritarian, it will necessarily breed the same old self-mistrust and callous use of people in the name of some unchallengeable 'higher' principle. It could be argued that it's too utopian to expect ordinary people to look to themselves as the bottom line of what's right, and also to care sufficiently about the state of the world. It is true that this has never occurred in history--but then it never had to. It is not that people need to move toward personal responsibility, mutual respect, and care in order to become or feel morally better. It is rather that we need to do so simply to survive. Our hypothesis, which this book develops, is that the powerful and pervasive nature of authoritarian programming can explain the mystery of humanity's seeming dual nature, including the capacity to compartmentalize expressions of violence and care. If our perspective is accurate, it is good news in that we are not biologically stuck, and thus at an evolutionary dead end. On the contrary, we are stuck in outmoded beliefs and methods that give us no idea of our potential. Democracy, which is an idea, has spread throughout the world in a historically short period of time because it ignites people's aspirations to have more control over their own lives. The ideal of democracy has moved much of the world to where it is today. Democracy in itself, however, cannot cope with the extraordinary challenges the world now faces, because at best a democracy can only reflect the values of its members. If, within democracies, authoritarian values and beliefs are conditioned (to varying degrees) in much of the population, this imposes serious limitations on how democratic the democracy can actually be. Yet democracy is an example of the power of an idea. If, as we assert, current problems are a function of outmoded authoritarian beliefs, this is truly a source of hope: Self-perpetuating structures depend totally on beliefs that live in people's minds. Although beliefs tenaciously resist reorganization, should they change, the changes can come swiftly, with extraordinary repercussions. Seeing more clearly the hidden nature and pervasiveness of authoritarian beliefs can itself undermine their power. For us, hope lies in the possibility of moving beyond our authoritarian past in order to build together a future that values keeping this planet habitable for its interwoven and interdependent forms of life. If the challenge is met, the world will have to be a better place for those living in it, because for the first time since the early small bands of humanity's infancy, everyone's well-being is once again linked with survival. [ The Guru Papers -- Epilogue ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 19:48:51 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, this is great stuff [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 17:53:24 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Very relevant, as usual Jim Message:

Shame the human race as a whole, especially including us guru nutters, who probably cared the most about the future of this planet, should have been having 20 years ago. Any goods links on the global warming stuff I sent ya. I'm gonna start trawling it now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 15:29:10 (EDT) From: And On Anand Ji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: !wantabadge Subject: :: nice post :: [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:58:47 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Huge ooopsy - just reposted it above. Message:

with my tuppenceworth.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 04:20:27 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: This was posted on Lifes Great... and my reply Message:

Hi Loaf Thanks for the repost. i don't suppose you'll get a sensible reply over there. I think it was you who said something before about the damage done to our thinking. I am feeling this myself now, I am remembering that 'scripture' used to be my favourite lesson at school because I used to enjoy the questioning and debate that was allowed in that lesson. I used to be clever. Now i find it hard to argue a point. I can't blame M & K for this totally because I could have pursued a more intellectual life premie or not (and still can) but having accepted that the most important things in life are 'going Inside' and 'devotion' gave me just the excuse for mental laziness I needed. Anyway why I wrote...You seem to be saying that irreparable damage may have been done. Have i got you right? Are you sure? this is scary. how long have you been out? It seems to me that some of the old boys on this forum are thinking quite clearly, but maybe that's just in relation to premies (which is what an amazingly high % of my friends are) Aaarrrrgh!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:19:53 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Peg Subject: Bullshit, Peg Message:

I am feeling this myself now, I am remembering that 'scripture' used to be my favourite lesson at school because I used to enjoy the questioning and debate that was allowed in that lesson. I used to be clever. Now i find it hard to argue a point. Peg, I've spoken to some of your childhood friends and they said that your real interests as a young girl were boys and gurus. That's all you'd ever talk about, boys and gurus. Now look what you've done! No, seriously Peg, you really have nothing to worry about. That brain of yours is deeply hard-wired. You were born to THINK and the fact that you even want to puts you in a very good spot. I remember when I left the ashram and started reading again. I was like a dry sponge. It's all there, Peg. Don't worry about it. Honestly. This is your lucky day.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:51:41 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Peg Subject: Re: This was posted on Lifes Great... and my reply Message:

hello pegs is damage irreparable.. well for me i can never go back to what i was like before knowledge.. therefore i cannot erase the past so i incorporate what has happened into me. It did affect me. i am changed by it.. but I want to move on, not just back. The process of moving on involves a great deal (for me) of reconciliation with a self that i had lost touch with. I needed to forgive myself for having feelings that werent 'divine' I needed to stop acting or feeling 'special' that was a tough one. I have to learn not to Blast people with my 'inner certainty'.. as a role model for relationships Maha makes it difficult to be equal..i find that I default to inferior/superior given half a chance. FOR THIS NEXT BIT Peg- PICTURE ME WALKING IN SLOW MOTION BY THE OCEAN AT SUNSET have i come free of all this?... not by a long way. Have I benefited from the entire trip? ... of course. Can human beings be happy ?... if they so wish. Have I adopted the annoying habit of speaking in generalisations and third person tones ?........ yes. Will human beings ever be free from the Master ?.... if they so wish. How will I know when I am free ?......... you will know. How ? .....you will know Peg .. i cant answer your question ! See you soon Loaf (up to his ankles in cold water)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 12:20:08 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Still laughing! [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:02:34 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Peg Subject: Nonsense, Peg Message:

Of course irreparable damage has not been done. Aren't you enjoying having your mind back, being of sound mind, being in your right right mind? It gets better everyday. Promise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:21:01 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I guess I should have read this first! [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:47:21 (EDT) From: I like you guys You're sooo funny Email: None To: Jim Subject: Peg... thanks [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:08:11 (EDT) From: Joseph A. Whalen Email: None To: All Subject: Letter to CAC, Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat Message:

August 26, 2001 Dear CAC, Elan Vital Board of Directors and Prem Pal Singh Rawat (aka) Maharaji: I have been the subject of a personal and vicious attack by members of your organization, who specifically refer to themselves as followers of Maharaji and adherents to his teachings, over the internet on a webstie at www.stopcyberstalkers.org. I can only assume that both Elan Vital and Prem Pal Singh Rawat are behind this attack, since the objections all have to do with comments I have made about them. The website contains false information about me that is defamatory to me both personally and professionally. The website is also an invasion of my right to privacy as a private person, and an incitment to inflict harrassment or violence on me. The website labels me a “cyberstalker” for doing nothing other than using my free speech rights to discuss my former involvement with your organization as both as a former employee of Elan Vital, and a former member thereof, and my involvement with Mr Rawat, Maharaji, who is my former spiritual “master.” Because I have been critical of Maharaji and my former employer, Elan Vital, I have been attacked, and thus I can do nothing but assume you have either instigated or are have actively encouraged others to do this. The website requests that other members of your organization contact my employer as well as the the American Institute for Chartered Property and Casualty Underwiters, through which I hold a professional licensing designation, San Francisco State University, where I have been on the faculty, and the Risk and Insurance Management Society of which I am a member, and falsely tell them that I have engaged in criminal activities. The website gives the address of the physical location where I work as an obvious incitement that I be harrased and possibly the subject of violence at my place of employment. The website also falsely accuses me of using my professional designations and training to defame others. As you can see, the damages incurred by me by your organization and its members are substantial and ongoing. Because of my former involvement with both your organization and Maharaji, I know for a fact that if Prem Pal Singh Rawat disapproved of this website and publicly said so, that defamatory website would disappear very quickly, since the instigators of the website, whoever they are, state their allegiance to Mr. Rawat. In this situation, Mr. Rawat’s continued silence can only be interpreted as his having instigated or actively encouraged the defamatory contents of that website, or that he approves of same. If Mr. Rawat makes a public statement within the next 48 hours and the defamatory material prepared by your members is removed as a result, I will refrain from taking further action. If not, I intend to do so. I will post this letter on the ex-premie.org forum, but now that I have been the subject of this illegal defamatory attack, I will be unable to comment further, until I am able to seek additional advice of counsel. I would appreciate acknowledgement that you have received this notice. Very truly yours, Joseph A. Whalen San Francisco, California

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:26:51 (EDT) From: Roger AK eDrek Email: None To: Joseph A. Whalen Subject: good job, this has got to stop Message:

this is evil shit that could easily cost us our careers and livelihoods thanks to some freaky fanatic. Maharaji has the power to stop this illegal activity if he so chooses.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 11:06:00 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Joseph A. Whalen Subject: Way to go, Joe Message:

They hate you Joe, they really hate you! Congratulations on your recent elevation (descent?) to CAC sainthood - you really deserved to be on the first list but at least you made it. Seriously though, your letter and stance are strong and straightforward. Well said.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:39:59 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Joseph A. Whalen Subject: A question Joe. Message:

Joe, I notice in your CAC page, that you used to be a member of a 'bizarre cult'. What cult was that then? Anth, who is going to include his CAC page in his CV.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:16:09 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Joseph A. Whalen Subject: I have alsobeen advised not to speak about CAC Message:

While an investigation is taking place into CAC I am no longer at liberty to talk about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:58:06 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: I have alsobeen advised not to speak about CAC Message:

Thought this might amuse you while you are legally bound and caca gagged. :) [ curry cult ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 05:07:36 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: How did you know I was in the curry cult. btdt? Message:

Thanks for that. I'm a curryholic - the hotter the better. I blame the Gujerati premies for that. Looks like you are having fun on the net. Ain't it great to enjoy the mind, the intellect without Maharajism concepts and superstitions?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 08:35:51 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: How did you know I Message:

It's on cacas site. 'It is well know to everyone that PatC is and addicted curry muncher, in fact he has been seen hanging outside Indian resturant'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:14:19 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joseph A. Whalen Subject: Good letter, Joe Message:

What's to say? Whatever it is, I'll do it in email.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:53:28 (EDT) From: Two questions Email: None To: All Subject: for Charles Glasser Message:

Charles, you state 2 things on your new update section. Can you explain how you know these things to be true? 1-You know that maharaji would never want people to hurt each other or hate each other... How do you know this, exactly? On the contrary, most people who have been around maharaji have given numerous stories showing maharaji to do just that; their stories reveal a man who loves to play with power and hurts people regularly.. Many stories also reveal a cruel, sadistic streak in the man...do you really know that he doesn't hate or encourage hate between people? So, once again, how does Charles Glasser really know that? 2-You state that you know that maharaji or EV could never stop this guy Boris..... Once again, Charles, how do you really know that, exactly? Most people around maharaji state that if he tells any premie to stop something, they stop, immediately. Most premies believe maharaji to have some sort of 'divine' status, and are scared to death of the man that they believe is gods messenger on earth. Why do you believe that Boris would not take the site down if maharaji requested him to? Or, if Boris is not a premie connected to maharaji, he is defaming maharaji by putting up accounts of ex-followers who were in a wierd cult...this 'wierd cult' is maharaji's, right? Aren't you speculating, Charles, or do you have some special access and know things that we don't know? And don't you think that Boris is extremely stupid for doing this? And hurting everyone, including your master?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:28:58 (EDT) From: 'CAC Attack' Alert Email: None To: All Subject: Joe,Anth,Marianne on the site now Message:

It now seems that Joe Whalen, Anth and Marianne are now on the caca list of subversives to be watched. What is so funny, is that in order to defame them, it is stated that some of them were once members of a wierd cult...m's cult, in fact.... Is Boris shooting himself in the foot or what? How stupid can this get? Rawat-this is really backfiring on you bad, man...wise up buddy...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:36:48 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: 'CAC Attack' Alert Subject: My challenge to Premies and Exes. Message:

I defy you to read my page on the CAC site and not laugh out loud. Really. It's so funny I'm going to email the URL to all my friends and put a link to it on my own website. To be honest, I was feeling quite left out when I wasn't on the site when it was launched, and I'm still a bit peeved that Salam got on the list before me. Dot, my wife, was really interested in the bit that said, 'If you need assistance to protect yourself from this individual...etc'. I think she's sent an email already. 'once a promising, aspiring writer, has sadly turned into an aging, bitter, self-centered, activist interested only in promoting his floundering career, to the detriment of innocent victims...' ...fine so far, no problems with that. 'Ginn surfs the Net and goes from bulleting board to bulletin board, scavenging for pieces of news which he will spin and twist to suit his manipulative needs. He then attempts to sell his fabrications to tabloids.' Hey, that's not a bad idea, I might try that. The rest is pretty ordinary run of the mill stuff, my penchant for getting dressed up in drag and injecting myself with heroin from rusty syringes- shit, that's been public knowledge for years. They have missed a few important aspects of my personality though: The fact that I'm certified insane (or was it sane?, I can't remember). The fact that my sex life has been soley with soft toys for the past six months- I've been in a deep meaningful relationship with my Teddy Bear, but am starting to get attracted to a fluffy pink elephant I've seen in the toy shop. I know you can't buy love, but ...I digress. Anyway, its good to see the tone of CAC maturing into pure comedy. By the way, in the UK, 'Cac', sometimes spelled 'Cak', pronounced, 'Cack', is a slang word for 'shit', as in, 'You've got cac on your shoe.' This makes me think the site doesn't originate in the UK. Anth the mild mannered christian..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:38:37 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: AJW Subject: I didn't know you are a Libra Message:

How scandalous, So am I Brian the co-conspirator

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 14:42:42 (EDT) From: Thelma afraid to use real nameb) Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: But he isn't Pig like you and me;) Message:

Thanks again for your email. It meant a lot to me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:34:19 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: AJW Subject: nth CAC means shit in most languages Message:

Here we say caca. In South Africa it is KAK. But I shouldn't be talking to you as I am notorious for having sex with happily married men.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:36:31 (EDT) From: Thelma afraid to use real name Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Oops. I guess that's Anth to the nth degree [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:34:07 (EDT) From: Roger AK eDrek Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth, can I sell them those pictures I've got Message:

you know the ones taken at the first S.F. Latvian bash

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:02:41 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: sorry Message:

If you're really desperate I will swap places with you. ROFL.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:31:00 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: 'CAC Attack' Alert Subject: My final say on Cult Against Critics Message:

I know I don't have to tell you all. Save every word guys. We've been handed victory on a plate.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:08:53 (EDT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: 'CAC Attack' Alert Subject: Re: Joe,Anth,Marianne on the site now Message:

This nonesense has to stop. Innocent people's reputations are put on the line. This cac site has to be stopped. I've been away and return to see Marianne and Joe and Anth added to that list. Have the site owners no morals? Send you the best to you all. I am so sorry I ever considered m my master it really is a shame. I am so glad I am out of that sick cult. Mercedes

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 00:22:05 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: 'CAC Attack' Alert Subject: Dear CAC and Elan Vital Message:

I have read the information written about me on the CAC website. Because it was and is designed to discredit people who criticize Maharaji and his organization, I can only assume that Elan Vital and Maharaji are also somehow involved in this site. You are on notice that information you have posted on your site is false. Some of it is defamatory. You have suggested that people contact the State Bar of California and the people in charge of the San Francisco Public Defender's Office in order to make false complaints about me which will damage my professional reputation. I take this matter very seriously and intend to do something about it. Elan Vital montiors, please pass this information along to your Board of Directors. Maharaji, you could put a stop to this by making a public statement disavowing the CAC site and all of its contents, and requesting that it be taken down. I urge you to do so immediately. Due to these events, I will not be making any further public comment on matters related to the CAC site. Marianne Bachers

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 07:30:35 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Pop the Cork. Message:

Hey Marianne, I notice you were teaching law in Cork, England. I guess that means the site authors don't come from Ireland too. In fact, there's only one country in the world where people are that bad at Geography. Anth Millbrook, France.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 06:54:25 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Whos that gorgeous looking bloke? Message:

Whos that gorgeous looking bloke in the picture on the cak website? The one with his arm around you and his eyes blocked out. Is it a film star, it could be Kevin Costner. By the way, I'm with Madonna in my picture, they've blacked her eyes out too. Anth, gotta go and sell something to the tabloids.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 01:15:31 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Yours too, Marianne Message:

Good one. Talk to you later.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:39:16 (EDT) From: My favorite Email: None To: 'CAC Attack' Alert Subject: Re: Joe,Anth,Marianne on the site now Message:

I think the most bizarre one has to be about Marianne.... They call her 'paranoid', because she thinks someone might be monitoring the site....gee, I wonder who that might be? This is getting so bizarre, it is hard to believe ..... Does maharaji really want this guy's site on the net? Why?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 13:17:34 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: My favorite Subject: Relentless Self Promotion Message:

Well, Marianne's was good, I admit. but I am a bit of an Enigma to the Filament: Creating a profile of Gerry is difficult, since he does not seem able to articulate coherent views or opinions. What he lacks in intellect, however, he makes up in sheer hate, ferocity, and volume. Lyng targets innocent people on a number of forums and harasses them for months or years in a row. He makes a point of informing his victims that he 'sleeps with a shotgun under the bed.' He is suspect to be capable of spontaneous physical violence and should be considered possibly armed and dangerous. In case I haven't told any of my new victims (you know who you are) they call me 'Scary Gerry' at the gym in Olympia. A word to the wise should suffice...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:56:17 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: a point of order Message:

This is from cyber-shit-stirrers[CSS] website Little does he know that Australian authorities recently arrested Australian residents for cyberstalking activities against US citizens in the US I have read this sentence many times and it appears to imply a hidden threat. It also implies a knowledge of something. A police investigation in fact. If this is true, where did this person get his info from. The only other party that knew about the police investigation is EV. Anyone can tell me something that I don't know. Can you also please help me locating the thread where CSS mentions: Salam alleges that he belongs to a terrorist group; he sends cryptic messages and shares anti-semitic, pro-Hamas views. ... If you do not like what Mohammed did to the Jews 13 centuries ago, tough tities. I can not either. The fact remains, tribal war was an everyday thing at the time, and you are still trying to judge the past in present day's standards. Does not work. Arafat is nothing more than a puppet in the hands of the Saudis and the Kuwaitis. They pay him. At one time he was an honest freedom fighter, put then it got into his head that as long as he is leading a group of armed militia he may as well take advantage of the situation. His dreams came through at last with the emergence of the Territory of Palestine. As far as I am concerned, Arafat is no better than another dictator, but unfortunately, the Palestinians have no one to replace him. I am not sure what or how do Israel and the west wants the political system to be in Palestine. It is very likely that they want a puppet to lead, so as to be able to control this country better. Democracy, ha, what a joke. Not in the mid-east. You seem to think I am jockeying about Israel expansionism. I do not. It is not a joke. That IS A FACT. I don't see how that can be taken to be as sympathetic to Hamas? Oh I see, being anti-Arafat means you are from Hamas. cacas, you have been watching too many hollywood videos lately. But thanks anyway, the shit is going to hit the fan soon.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:59:12 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: and Jim Message:

I think that was you I was arguing with.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 23:04:59 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: salam Subject: Yes Message:

I admit, I'm CAC .... joke! Salam, Check your email and let me know what you think

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:52:04 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Cults, like other viruses, just keep changing Message:

Reading the funny Slate article on Falun Gong that Chuck posted on AG (and which I've also linked here, borrowing his joke as well), I'm struck by how cults keep evolving, as do other fashions and trends, to outfox the antibodies. It's as if the cults, or the cult leaders, more precisely, tailor their pitch so as to disarm one or two of their anticipated objections. I know Maharaji sure as hell did that. When I got Knowledge in Vancouver in 1973 the city was aswarm with various eastern gurus and other mind trappers. Maharaji, wanting to single himself out in a heavy field of competitors and to also be able to overcome suspicion, came up with the 'no doctrine' doctrine. It didn't matter how much actual hindu bullshit he the nfed us, so long as he'd framed his pitch as being doctrine-free we thought of it so. You can still see premies, even today, claiming as much, that there's no teaching to this teaching. Bizarre the dance they have to do, as they now must look back to that earlier period, which, like I say, we also thought was doctrine-free and, first, admit that it wasn't and second, find a way to explain it away. In that light, it be most interesting to hear a premie explain not only how heavily saddled we were with 'concepts' then but how, even then, Maharaji gloated about how there weren't any. If that was wrong, and we were indeed full of such hindu trappings even though we said we weren't, who's to say that the cult isn't still fooling itself? But my general point is that like any good scam artist, cults have to evolve to meet anticipated suspicion and criticism. Maharaji's whole history is one of fucking up, trying to scapegoat anyone and everyone and then trying to cover his tracks. His cult is a little different than his father's is a little different than his brother's is a little different than all the rest. If EV continues after m retires, if that's what he's going to do, the successor cult's going to be a bit different too. [ The (Falun) Gong Show ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:05:56 (EDT) From: John Cavad Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Cults, like other viruses, just keep changing Message:

Hi, Jim from Canada. Maybe you remember me? I used to be active on this site a few years ago. I just wanted to say thanks for sticking in here and fighting off all those absurd cult ideas from premies that visit. Thanks for sticking to this very worthy cause. You have influenced many for the better, I'm sure. Best Wishes, John

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 21:21:33 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: John Cavad Subject: Quit harrassing me, John! Message:

What is this? Even years later and you can't leave us alone? John, hi. Of course I remember you. How're you doing? Been lurking? What inning you come back in on? The scoreboard's kind of wonky but I think we're winning. Beer?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 17:28:45 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: In love with an ideal Message:

That was an interesting article, Jim, but it was the link to another article about Buddhism that really made me think about how when we're presented with the promises of these cults we automatically respond in a positive manner. It's a natural reflex to respond to peace, serenity, and of course, as Falon Gong promises, eternal life. But when you get into it you begin to see that it's just an infatuation with an ideal. Here's an excerpt from the article on Buddhism showing the conflict between the ideal of Buddhism and the failure of human nature to live up to it. The nuns were followers of a lama I'd written a book (The Buddha From Brooklyn: A Tale of Spiritual Seduction) about, the founder of one of the largest Tibetan Buddhist monasteries in this country. I had become interested in the practice of Buddhism in America—and fascinated by the appeal of a religion that was, at best, a difficult fit with American culture. The nuns (and their lama) are Americans, baby boomers, and over the four years that I spent interviewing them about their lives, we became friends, too. I admired them, liked them. I was attracted to Buddhism too—and felt that these Americans were wonderful examples of a spiritual philosophy in practice. I warned them sometimes, 'You might not like how my book turns out.' And my nun friends seemed only amused by this notion and would insist otherwise. When I finished writing, I called to say that my book contained many positive stories—of many lives immeasurably improved by the practice of Buddhism—but also included other, less positive stories. There was a desperation for money at the temple, and curious power plays and group ostracism. I had heard disturbing accounts of members being strong-armed by nuns and monks to make donations to the temple. Current members who were in charge of the temple accounts had admitted that hundreds of thousands of dollars had been raised for specific temple projects but spent supporting the lama and her comfortable lifestyle instead. I had also become friendly with some former members, in particular a young nun and monk who had broken vows and been physically punished by the lama before the entire ordained monastery. A charge of battery was brought against the lama and later dropped. The nuns wondered why negativity needed to find its way into my account of temple life—but again, they seemed pleasantly detached, so, well, Buddhist. But when the book was released and the hate mail began arriving at my house, I soon discovered that being a Buddhist means being a human being—as magnificent and mysterious and complicated as that is. Two nuns denounced the book as 'smut.' Three nuns e-mailed me to say I had gone through the temple's 'dirty laundry.' There were a couple of unfortunate threats too. 'I pray the book will fail—for your sake,' one nun wrote me. Another e-mailed this: 'You have taken on Tara, Mother of all Buddhas, and you'll be sorry.' I suppose I was frightened, but mostly the letters made me depressed. Was this Buddhism in action? And what happened to my perfectly detached nun friends? They had never been perfect, of course. Or inhumanly mellow and kind. The nuns were people, just people—just like you and me and the 14th Dalai Lama. They would have preferred some whitewashing of their life stories—and the story of their lama. That's pretty human, I guess. And they would have preferred a little whitewashing of Buddhism too. For them—and indeed, for many of us—it's the last refuge, the one remaining hope. After so much religious corruption, so many flawed hierarchies, and so many sobbing televangelists who seem always on the take, Americans want to believe that Buddhism is free of such problems—free of ego and hierarchies and money-grubbing. We want Buddhism to be pure, unassailable. We almost need it that way. So we tell ourselves it's a philosophy, a set of teachings, not really a religion. It's simple. It's calming. You buy a little Buddha for your mantelpiece and feel better. You drink some green tea and feel cleansed. We're afraid to know much about it—about the demons, the 18 various kinds of hell, or the 108,000 prostrations you need to do just to get through the beginner's phase. Reality might ruin the fun. And it might spoil the good shopping too. Buddhism has brought meaning and happiness to the lives of millions of people for thousands of years, of course. And—even after my exposure to its lightest and darkest sides—Buddhism has brought a great deal of that to me too. But it's a religion, probably no better or worse than the other great ones. And like other religions, Buddhism is a very nice thing, as an idea, as an exercise in extreme optimism, but in practice it can get a little ugly and strange and distorted—the way things do when people get together and contemplate what might happen to them after they die. People are people, and even with the best intentions, weird things happen. Didn't Buddha say that? Buddha said a lot of things that made us believe that life could be perfect, that WE could be perfect. But can we, really? Show me some evidence.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 16:24:53 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: GM and concepts, curious really Message:

All my years as a premie I never could get it. My experience in meditation was quite powerful, certainly I felt I understood 'it', so why didn't he just trust that feeling/practice. Even now, in this supposedly knowledge lite baggage free period, it's amazing how many concepts he throws in with the 'no concept' concept, where's the trust in the package he's selling. The only way I coulkd rAtionalize it, was weith a mixture of the lila one and most premies are not ready one, premies couldn't cope with the experience etc, which meant I had plenty of spiritual arrogance and superiority, and fucked up-ness from the lila warp. But still it seemed really odd, if the knowledge is 'it', which my experience always cinfirmed it was. So I blocked off from it, added it to my unconscious package of dissonance. So we are left with a practice it's very difficult to hold onto, needing constant reminding of, yet it's supposedly simple and accessible to everyone, but in practice...... And he then riddled people with guilt about not practicing, and what would happen if you walked. If I'd been in the ashram environment know damned well I'd have ended up institutionalized at best, never was good on the guilt one at the best of times.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 14:41:58 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: cac twin Message:

Looks like the same tactics were used on this site,`and thought you all might find it interesting how a mirrow site was set up. It is remarkable how all these cults are similar in ce methodology to ev/k/m, as well the tactics employed in supressing any opposing questions and/or opposing views. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/index.htm

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:13:24 (EDT) From: sushi Email: None To: btdt Subject: mark of destructive cults Message:

Your link includes what follows. Doesn't sound familirar> Marks Of A Destructive Cult * Mind Control (undue influence): Manipulation by the use of coercive persuasion or behavior modification techniques without informed consent. * Charismatic Leadership: Claiming divinity or special knowledge and demanding unquestioning obedience with power and privilege. Leadership may consist of one individual or a small group of core leaders. * Deception: Recruiting and fundraising with hidden objectives and without full disclosure of the use of mind controlling techniques; use of 'front groups.' * Exclusivity: Secretiveness or vagueness by followers regarding activities and beliefs. * Alienation: Separation from family, friends and society, a change in values and substitution of the cult as the new 'family;' evidence of subtle or abrupt personality changes. * Exploitation: Can be financial, physical or psychological; pressure to give money, to spend a great deal on courses or give excessively to special projects and to engage in inappropriate sexual activities, even child abuse. * Totalitarian Worldview (we/they syndrome): Effecting dependence, promoting goals of the group over the individual and approving unethical behavior while claiming goodness. Techniques Of Mind Control * Group pressure and 'Love-Bombing' discourages doubts and reinforces the need to belong through the use of child-like games, singing, hugging, touching or flattery. * Isolation/Separation creates inability or lack of desire to verify information provided by the group with reality. * Thought-Stopping Techniques introduce recruit to meditating, chanting, and repetitious activities which, when used excessively, induce a state of high suggestibility. * Fear and Guilt induced by eliciting confessions to produce intimacy and to reveal fears and secrets, to create emotional vulnerability by overt and covert threats, as well as alternation of punishment and reward. * Sleep Deprivation encouraged under the guise of spiritual exercises, necessary training, or urgent projects. * Inadequate Nutrition sometimes disguised as special diet to improve health or advance spirituality, or as rituals requiring fasting. * Sensory Overload forces acceptance of complex new doctrine, goals and definitions to replace old values by expecting recruit to assimilate masses of information quickly with little or no opportunity for critical examination. NOTE: Not all of these features need to be present simultaneously for a mind control regime to be operative. Harmful Effects * Loss of free will and control over one's life. * Development of dependency and return to child-like behavior. * Loss of spontaneity or sense of humor. * Inability to form intimate friendships outside the cult or enjoy flexible relationships. * Physical deterioration and abuse. * Psychological deterioration (including hallucinations, anxiety, paranoia, disorientation, and dissociation). * Involuntary, de facto servitude or exploitation. NOTE: Not all of these harmful effects will be experienced by everyone who has a destructive cult experience. 'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that that cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' -- Jenne Mills, former member of the People's Temple and subsequent victim of assasination a year following the November 18, 1978 Jonestown suicide/murders of 911 adults and children.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:06:04 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Amway Message:

Two good premie friends of mine got into Amway, and tried to get me in. After deciding that the model couldn't possibly work without continuously recruiting new members, I told them I wasn't interested. I haven't seen them since (although I hadn't seen them for a while beforehand either. I hope they've got out of both cults:-) John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 15:38:09 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Amway Message:

Oh crickey! Ev/M can't survive without the pyramid scheme either! --- As she smacks her forhead and utters 'Gee, I coulda/shoulda just had a V-8'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 14:22:48 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: All Subject: being open can leave you open Message:

I went to visit Charles glassers site the truth about M.. beautiful layout especially on ie4 with my resolution.. and I accidentally found myself at M's site. Now.. I remember when that site went up.. must have been about 96... and I remember staring at it with 'those eyes of appreciation' and thinking 'wow how kind he is to give us this way to keep in touch with him'. hmmm.. I didnt quite have that response today. It strikes me now that the psychology of all this is quite interesting. recently my journey was being read by premie porn mongers...because it does not dis-respect the past or M (I presume)I cannot imagine what other motive they could possibly have. Re-reading it however has taught me a thing or two. Compared with where I am now, what I thought was integrity and truth (then) now seems blatently wooly and full of holes. I was under the influence for many years.. and coming off this stuff is stranger than heroin. Subtler. And the influence of knowledge made me 'slightly pourous'.. so that I still dont have very much idea of where I start and finish. my edges are blurred. I am unable to see myself with any clarity. I freak out, and dont even notice, I pretend to myself that everything is fine. It was a very big thing when I forst admited to myself thatI was unhappy. How could I be unhappy.. I have the K of all Ks.???? So far from myself.. and yet preaching TRUTH. Living a delusion and proclaiming PERCEPTION. Yes it is true that the psychological facts and ANY analysis of M or K were a threat to my 'bubble' for many years.. dodnt question it, just feeeeeel, trust the force Luke. However, now that I am standing a little bit clear of the fog, I can see that truth and sensitivity and love and awareness do not die when you question M.... rather there is a balance. I cant regret for a minute my part in it all.. because internally I am gone, lost, blown away, still in pieces. I have no grip on myself.. and no desire to have one. M taught me to trust. Not by being trustworthy- nor by giving me something to trust.. he just promotes trust AS a FEELING. Now... how dangerous is that ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001 at 16:05:21 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Scary really isn't it Loaf Message:

Know from my own example, there was me, a pretty dissident premie, for years verging on decades, supposedly detached from it all, only into the meditation etc etc. Then I fully left and my god, apart from the short term despair was seeing all these fuzzy boundaries open up where all the repetitive concepts used to lodge, andf realizing even just how much I'd been rationalizing and baggaging even though I'd gone way beyond that stuff for years, and it had all been very unconscious,m not on a thought process level, but purely emotional. A sudden total feeling of exposure. A lot of it I realized over time was that unspoken seperation into that world, even if just internal, and the other. When I started going to house parties and talking to people I realized just how far street culture had moved in terms of wisdom etc, and I was the one feeling like an adolescent with so much to learn. Without my mates, who mostly are half my age, it would have been much tougher dealing with those wobbly feelings, like disorientation etc. And frightening how my image of street wisdom was so stuck in the way it was 20 years before as though the 'world' never moved on. Such arrogance, and bogus confidence. That promoting trust as a feeling is really his three card trick, no force involved. Certainly as a community premie I found it easy to deny it was a cult, you could, on the outside never feel co-erced into giving money, worshipping him beyond a quiet admiration, especially in the later years, no fixed religious services etc etc No forced mass marriages like the moonies, no uniforms like the hari krishnas, no guru with a beard like the maharishi, no miracles like sai baba, superficially just a straight up guy, a quietly unspoken superior guru. But the glue was there in an even more creepy fashion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index