Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 13, 2001 To: Sep 17, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Victoria -:- No one told me there'd be days like these -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:12:14 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Hello to Victoria - an old friend! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:15:18 (EDT)
__ __ Victoria from Forum IV days -:- Re: Hello to Victoria - an old friend! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:40:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- And I also apologize.. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:33:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Hello to Victoria - an old friend! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:47:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Victoria -:- Re: Hello to Victoria - an old friend! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:09:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Victoria -:- I'm on the outside, I'm looking in, -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:32:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: I'm on the outside, I'm looking in, -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:35:05 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- My apologies, mistaken identity... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:24:54 (EDT)
__ __ Forum 4 Victoria -:- Re: My apologies, mistaken identity... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:43:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Victoria -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:07:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Victoria -:- Re: Hi Victoria -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:27:55 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Forum Janitor, Please... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:58:01 (EDT)
__ __ Victoria -:- Re: Forum Janitor, Please... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:56:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Forum Janitor -:- A misunderstanding here -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:52:58 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- More bad news about terrorism..... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:45:49 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Re: More bad news about terrorism..... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:25:17 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- USA is a great country -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:05:03 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- THIS THREAD IS TERRIBLE -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:29:57 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- That's true Cynthia -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:23:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- can cows join in?? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:09:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Selene, can cows join in? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:19:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- glad you can see it -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:57:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You've got it sweetie... [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:55:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Hey SC, er, Dave -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:33:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- why do you spell gerry with a small g? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:46:24 (EDT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: THIS THREAD IS TERRIBLE -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:07:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Mel... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:55:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Mel... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:13:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- The NOW statement is great... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:24:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: The NOW statement is great... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:27:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks Cynthia, and take care ..... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:32:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Rephrase - sorry -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:23:13 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- P.S..And don't you dare... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:46:39 (EDT)
__ don p. -:- Re: More bad news about terrorism..... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:01:48 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- don p. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:05:48 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Triage. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:03:06 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Completely innapropriate -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 02:47:01 (EDT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Completely innapropriate -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:15:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Completely innapropriate -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:17:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Fugitives or refugees? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:16:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- You're making me go down I route -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:45:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: You're making me go down I route -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:59:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ don p. -:- Re: You're making me go down I route -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:01:16 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: More bad news about terrorism..... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 00:17:06 (EDT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: More bad news about terrorism..... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 01:25:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- More bad news about your soul. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:13:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: More bad news about your soul. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:59:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ don p. -:- Re: More bad news about your soul. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:09:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:27:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Blame America -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:18:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Blame America -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:45:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Blame America -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:01:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Blame America -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:29:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ don p. -:- Re: Blame America -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:16:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- blame, etc. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 08:57:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: blame, etc. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:34:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- blame, etc. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 08:55:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Blame America -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:06:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks, Jerry.... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:39:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks, Jerry.... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:39:20 (EDT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- an additional thought... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:00:39 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- The CIA -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 23:03:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: The CIA -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 00:50:34 (EDT)

Help Needed -:- Help -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:10:03 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Nothing like a war to increase sales -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:26:31 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- re rick -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:47:23 (EDT)
__ Ulf -:- Re: re rick -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:58:54 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Ulf -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:52:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Hi Ulf -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:20:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hi Ulf -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:00:33 (EDT)
__ __ yelnaws -:- Re; ULF -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:44:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Re; ULF -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:28:45 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- I did it -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:11:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: I did it -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:07:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I feel so good -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:29:10 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- a piece of advice -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:52:20 (EDT)
__ __ yelnaws -:- sylvia -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:36:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- As someone said to you -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:38:49 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: re rick -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:51:02 (EDT)

Deborah -:- SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:44:15 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:51:58 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- If they whoever they are don't hate .... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 23:10:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i will post bin laden's interview -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 23:47:56 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- If thy -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:59:53 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- You've got to admire Saddam's cheek -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:35:29 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Give peace a chance -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:01:51 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- Re: Give peace a chance -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:08:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Give peace a chance -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:24:44 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Give peace a chance -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:08:16 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:00:01 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Can you be more specific? [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:13:10 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:58:35 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- That's right ... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:40:33 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:11:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:11:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- What I meant was -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:43:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: What I meant was -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- to all the nice people -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:35:07 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: to all the nice people -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:39:21 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- and he's short. -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:59:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yelnaws... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:56:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- This post was not deleted -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:53:08 (EDT)

Forum janitor -:- Time to buff the floors... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:27:51 (EDT)
__ Buffy -:- Re: Time to buff the floors... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:00:12 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- is up to u -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:53:42 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Start buffin'... [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:41:42 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- You have my vote [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:29:38 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Is 'war' the right word? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:22:14 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Is 'war' the right word? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:49:25 (EDT)

Repost of -:- Some practical ways to help (ot) -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:33:49 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- 'national emergency':democracy in peril -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:46:26 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:00:37 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:45:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:39:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thank you for that Such... [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:44:23 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:35:34 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Fucking AYE, Pat! -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:24:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Fucking AYE, Pat! -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:23:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- He's history, Cynth -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:31:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- don't -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:55:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: don't -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:28:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: don't - why? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:20:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanks Ger -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:49:20 (EDT)

gerry -:- Check out the turd in toilet bowl... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 15:24:34 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- A throwback to the Knowledge session -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:51:01 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- when did THAT appear there? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 15:53:54 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- I don't know -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:02:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- he's placating his following -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:29:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: he's placating his following -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:35:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- he had to say something -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:43:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthai -:- Me, too, Selene -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:28:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well, It Wasn't there yesterday... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:18:48 (EDT)

Chuck S. -:- Religious Cults have all the answers... (OT?) -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 13:30:12 (EDT)
__ CNN -:- Petition to Rebuke Falwell/Robertson -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 18:44:47 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- I signed this, and... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:09:36 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: Religious Cults have all the answers... (OT?) -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 18:32:48 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- I'm embarassed to be from Virginia -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:06:38 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: I'm embarassed to be from Virginia -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:41:09 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: I'm embarassed to be from Virginia -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:27:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ KatieH -:- Deb and Cynthia -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:41:40 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- They are disgusting...(OT?) -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 14:52:20 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:12:14 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: All
Subject: No one told me there'd be days like these
Message:
It's days like these that really make you think about religious fanaticism, as an ex-fanatic, I have to ask myself, would I have crashed a plane into the world trade center for Maharaji? I think no, I asked the same question when jonestown happened, and i thought probably i would have drank the koolaid but i wouldn't have taken anyone else out with me, let them find their own way, you know?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:15:18 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Hello to Victoria - an old friend!
Message:
Hi Victoria - I don't really post here anymore (except for the last few days), but I do remember you very well, and I'm glad to see you here. I can vouch for you being a bona-fide ex who had many good insights to contribute to this forum.

Glad to see you here,
Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:40:08 (EDT)
From: Victoria from Forum IV days
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Hello to Victoria - an old friend!
Message:
Hey Katie,

Thanks a lot, I remember you too and the healing and sharing of those days, how great it was to find the forum for the first time. Trying to find yourself after the cult, it's damn near impossible with traditional psychotherapy or even trying to work things out with friends...that doesn't really happen with people who don't have the same frame of reference, as you know.

I think I quit posting because of this incredible paranoia and really mean-ness that happens on the forum, partially, but also because I had already worked out a lot and have you all good people to thank for it.

Hope you are well and that your circle of friends is not too close to the tragic events we are all watching and reading about in the news. It's times like these that we really need community so I guess that's why I returned to the forum...looking for that sense of belonging and sharing. To feel connected.

Was searching the recent archives and can't find any posts from the other Victoria, maybe they were deleted, I found only reponses.

Glad to see you too,
Love,
Victoria

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:33:54 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Victoria from Forum IV days
Subject: And I also apologize..
Message:
to you Victoria, for skimming over you post.

The threads here have been running so fast, it's difficult to keep up.

Cynthia, with egg on my face :o

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:47:00 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Victoria from Forum IV days
Subject: Re: Hello to Victoria - an old friend!
Message:
Hey Victoria -
The other 'Victoria' was a pseudonym - really obnoxious, and obviously not a real person posting under their own name. I'm sorry you got the backlash from it - but, as you probably realize, everyone is quite upset these days. I did want to post in your support. I have basically 'moved on' from this site too (like all the premies were always urging us to do - snicker), but came back for the same reason that you did.

I agree very much about the sense of community. My family lives in DC, and a lot of the students at the university where I work have parents who work in the Pentagon, so it has been pretty rough - but people are sticking together. It's definitely brought me and my mom closer together, so that has been a plus.

Take care, and love to you and yours,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:09:26 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Hello to Victoria - an old friend!
Message:
Katie,

I agree with you, people really are sticking together, a lot of people seem to be a whole lot nicer than they were before, it feels like there's a lot of stuff that doesn't matter as much and people are getting down to more serious stuff and trying to make a real connection. Like we are all at one gigantic funeral and just want to show support for each other. Well some people anyway, other people are more distant and analytical and these people are not at the funeral and when the mourners get together with the analyzers it can be very very uncomfortable. I think I am at the funeral with my kids and my husband is not with us, so I come to the forum and here I am. I didn't lose anyone personally and I am grateful for that, but the feeling is very tenuous, isn't it? I work with a woman whose brother worked in the WTC. She couldn't even fly to New York, you know? It's awful. It's unimaginably horrible. I am sorry for your students' parents, I don't know what your subject is, but I imagine you are dealing with current events now and helping the students. My 12-year-old son says he wishes he were there so he could have saved some of those people. And I'm so glad he was not there.

Love,
Victoria

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:32:18 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: I'm on the outside, I'm looking in,
Message:
Hey Katie,

It is the old premie dichotomy of the feelers vs. the thinkers trap that I was heading for, but I think the analysis is good, what's bad is the bigotry. I've truly had an awful weekend trying to make connections that weren't really there and being damn near paralyzed with overwhelming feelings. Reminds me of the staind song, inside I'm ugly, ugly like you. I really need to find some way to motivate myself toward a better life. Even without m I've found ways to stop thinking and stop feeling and only the inability to stop thinking and feeling has brought me to this juncture. Reminds me too of Thoreau, most men lead lives of quiet desparation. So that's it.

Victoria

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:35:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Re: I'm on the outside, I'm looking in,
Message:
Hey Victoria -
I only have time to write a short message because I have to go to work (I don't teach - just work with a bunch of students, and I don't know how helpful I've been except to let them know I feel the same way they do!) I think some people are analyzing this because it hurts too much to feel sad - same with the angry people too. My husband got very angry, but is now starting to feel more of the sadness. (But the bigotry is indeed awful - on both sides - and I'm doing what I can to prevent it.)

I understand about wanting to stop feeling and thinking, believe me - but I can't do it either. (I could write a lot more about this if I had more time.)

I was moved by what you said about your son - I hope he is all right. This must be so hard for kids to deal with. And I hope you are all right too.

Back to another day at work...

Love to you,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:24:54 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: My apologies, mistaken identity...
Message:
Victoria,

I thought you were someone else who is a troll. My apologies.

I understand the feeling of wanting to retaliate. I've had them too.

Again, I don't know you and I'm sorry I offended you.

Best,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:43:20 (EDT)
From: Forum 4 Victoria
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: My apologies, mistaken identity...
Message:
No really, I'm glad you said something because I was completely in the dark about this other Victoria and was beginning to feel that I did not exist at all until you replied.

Apology accepted,
Victoria

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:07:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Forum 4 Victoria
Subject: Hi Victoria
Message:
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Deborah Rose. I used to live in Miami where I rec'd K in 1980. I lived around the corner from the BigHead for most of my stay in Miami. I later moved to California. Yes, you bet, after the BigHead made his move. I followed approx. a year later being the incultcated fool of a service freak, darshan addict gopi.

I drifted away after meeting a guy who became my boyfriend for a couple of years. M was flying around the world and made a few programs in California. I attended them but found myself years later away from premies and M. So, I decided to look him up on internet. Found Ex-premies.org, left a post or two, never came back until a few months ago. When the first page loaded I saw a post by Michael Dettmers.

Because I knew at that moment that something was wrong and I had to find out what it was I started to read, and weep and every repressed memory of the vows, and cult behaviour came out of me. I was a fuckin wreck for a long time.

Since you posted here before, you must be familiar with Jim Heller. Well, months after I posted the first time, he emailed me to tell me he noticed we were in the same city and would I be interested in getting together to talk. I phoned him and liked the sound of his voice and I felt it would be a good and informative conversation but I got busy (read:repressed) and that coffee chat subsequently never happened. But luckily I realized that any time I wanted to talk abut my past involvement w/M and being a premie that I could have a private conversation with someone face-to-face rather than the forum. That encouraged me to go back to the forum again.

So, here I am. Doing better. And how are you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:27:55 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hi Victoria
Message:
Hi Deborah,

Go ahead and have coffee with Jim. This forum is certainly cathartic and so many of the exes helped me sort things out. I got in trouble when I started in with the premies who post here, but I had some email exes that saw me through some tough decisions. Even so, the letters don't have eyes and body language and intonation and all those things that make up communication.

I received k in 1977, was a devotee for about a year and a half. I'm doing better too, worse sometimes but that doesn't have much to do with m really. It only comes up when I make a friend, eventually I have to tell them about my fanatical past and so it looks like 2 or 3 years is a good span, less than that and the sheer unrelatability creates an ireparable gulf...isolation...more than that and the not telling creates the gulf.

Glad to hear you are doing better, we will survive,
Victoria

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:58:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Forum Janitor, Please...
Message:
Can we block this idiot?

Once and for all?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:56:08 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Forum Janitor, Please...
Message:
Can we block this idiot?

Once and for all?


---

I guess it is idiotic, but that's what came to mind and where else to discuss it but with ex-premies like myself? Like everyone else, I'm watching the news, it's unimaginable, the horror. But I didn't come online to discuss the politics, I wanted to discuss how it relates to fanaticism and specifically ex-premiedom.

'The Ex-premie Forum (Version 7)

Welcome to the forum for all people who used to be followers of Maharaji. This place is for you to share your thoughts and express yourself. Your own experiences of your time as a premie and your current realisations today will be of great interest to the people here, so please feel free to speak.'

Yeah, block me, once and for all. These are my first postings to Forum 7, I used to post to forums 3-5.

More power to you sister,
Victoria

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:52:58 (EDT)
From: Forum Janitor
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: A misunderstanding here
Message:
Victoria,

We have a person posting as 'Victoria Bitters' who is quite vitriolic and disruptive. I don't think you are this person and that Cynthia has mistaken you for her.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:45:49 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More bad news about terrorism.....
Message:
Hi all

I’ve been reading the debate on the forum unbelievable tragedy that unfolded earlier this week. The loss of life and significance is overwhelming.

To help Scott and other American ex’s understand why there is a undercurrent of anger toward the US that may have helped catalyse this weeks catastrophy, I have attached a link that documents CIA involvement in support of death squads and terrorism over the last 50 years all over the world. I was surprised and appalled by the depth of it’s involvement in these activities without the knowledge or endorsement of the American people, and suspect that the numbers of innocent deaths that it has been both directly and indirectly responsible for is far greater than the toll from this weeks deaths. It’s truly unfortunate and sad that innocent American lives may have been lost because of the undeniable indiscretions and clandestine activities of it’s Government and Intelligence Services over the years all over the world.

George Bush Sen is a former Director of the CIA, and in my view must share some responsibility for the loss of innocent lives as a result of these activities wherever they’ve occurred in the world.

This information dated October 1999 is originally from CIABASE files on Death Squads supported by the CIA. Also given are details on Watch Lists prepared by the CIA to facilitate the actions of Death Squads

If the link fails the address is – http://www.newsmakingnews.com/death_squads.htm

Mel
[ CIA activities ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:25:17 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: More bad news about terrorism.....
Message:
Hi Mel -
I KNOW about most of the CIA stuff (although I don't know if the 'average American' does - is there such a thing?). I have known for years that the CIA was way out of control during the cold war.

I don't need your post to make me understand why people hate Americans in general. I have felt guilty my whole life about being American, not to mention white. And I know that a lot of people hate me PERSONALLY because I am American - my family lived overseas when I was a child (my dad was born overseas), so I've experienced it. One result of this incident is that I feel LESS guilty about being born an American than I have in a long time, which to me is a positive thing.

All this to say that it is really hard to keep hearing more information like yours when I already feel indicted for being born in a certain country. I know you mean to present the 'other side', but it still is hurtful, as Cynthia said.

No nation has clean hands. Period. We can argue about who is worse, but to me that is pointless and divisive.

Hope you are well, and take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:05:03 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: USA is a great country
Message:
Katie (and others),

Stop beating yourself up about your country. It is a genuinely great country. It must have the best constitution of any in the world. It seriously attempts to live by that constitution. People genuinely have rights and freedoms denied to most people on this planet. For every terrorist that hates the country there are thousands outside America that long to live there. The American economic system (which derives directly from the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens) isn't perfect, but it's very successful. The contrast between the economic success of the US and the economic failure of soviet communism was the major cause of the collapse of the latter's ideology and the tyranny that went with it.

So, if I criticise America, I am not anti-American, I'm just trying to help a good friend understand why some people don't like him. It's good you recognise some of the faults of your country, but please recognise its greatness too.

Cheap but serious point follows:-

I'm really pleased Bush is going after those that support terrorism wherever they are. How will he deal with those who sponsor the Irish Republican Army?

John the friend of America.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:29:57 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: THIS THREAD IS TERRIBLE
Message:
This is just awful. I understand why American's are hated. I understand it all too well.

How do you think if feels for the majority of American citizens to be painted with a broad brush of hate at time of deep sorrow?

How dare you? At a time when innocent children have lost their parents, at a time when our nation has been attacked by fanatic cultists?

The US Gov. is not innocent of violence. But when someone needs money or assistance for disasters, who is called upon first? America.

This thread is just depressing and sad. Hate me all you want. I don't care anymore. My grief is too raw.

Look at the shots of NYC. People in NYC are in the deepest mournful state; lining up with pieces of DNA so they can find out if they'll every recover a body part of their loved ones.

This thread has made me very angry at men. Men cause wars, not women. Men rule the religions, not women. Women are so oppressed in the Middle East. Those veils on the women in the Middle East are not mandated because they just don't want women showing their faces. They are there because men mulilate their faces. They cut off their ears and noses and beat them.

Men are the exclusive causes of hatred and violence worldwide. That's a fact.

Stop it. If you don't like the US, fine, I can't do anything about it. By 'you' I speak to all men on this board.

I'm tired of feminism being taboo on this board. Get used to it men, I've had my fill of the men in this world who have all the power to suppress women. We are in a critical imbalance in this regard.

And I don't see much relief. I am not a man hater. I love all good men who understand that it is testosterone poisoning which causes all this violence. Yes, I have heard many men acknowledge this, the good men. And I know in my heart that most of the men who post here are good men. So knock off this hatred, please. It's an insult to the women here. And I'm not going to be silenced by my feminist/womanist views anymore.

If you don't like what is happening in the world, get off the board and become activists. Violence begets violence.

How do you think the women of this world feel right now, watching men in tremendous power here in America and abroad, making all of our decisions for us? Personally, I feel quite rotten about it.

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:23:06 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That's true Cynthia
Message:
It's hard to admit sometimes because there are so many fantastic men around. Just people really, not one or the other.
But your reminder is timely and correct, men have made one awful mess of their respect for women and indeed, each other.

Man is a bloody trouble maker, a war maker.
Also socially, an animal.What happens in 'those' countries is very well publicised in the Oz media and god, it is bad. The last week Sunday Magasine had a story headed..'I killed my sister, because she was raped. It was a matter of honour.' There's a pic of this guy sitting on his bed with a picture of his, now deceased, sister. It defied belief and comprehension.
Your voice is a true one in my opinion, unless men fucking realise something about life (which women know far more about because they are forced to involve themselves in the very process of creating life) they going to self destruct.

We man things are laughably ignorant of the true sacrifice a woman makes and learns from in that whole reproduction process. Men spend half their life initiating procreation and the other half destroying what they've created.
I support your quest to bring feminine influence in proceedings up at least 70%.
cheers,
SC

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:09:54 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: can cows join in??
Message:
haha no text
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:19:37 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene, can cows join in?
Message:
Wink, wink....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:57:53 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: glad you can see it
Message:
:) You gotta laugh, you know?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:55:28 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You've got it sweetie... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:33:29 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Hey SC, er, Dave
Message:
It's David, right? Why do you use the initials 'SC?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:46:24 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: why do you spell gerry with a small g?
Message:
why don't you build graphite guitars?

Why doesn't trust exist here?

these questions and more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:07:41 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: THIS THREAD IS TERRIBLE
Message:
Cynthia

The issue is not with the American people as such, who like allpeople the world over, show the best human qualities when confronted with catastrophes like the one in New York. Like you say, this is about the power elites of the world in struggle, but I'm not so sure that women would have done any better than men, in my view that's typical feminist 'cult' thinking (although I know you will agree with that!)

Írrespective of gender we are all human beings, and your particular indignation should not be a reason to debate the issues,and share views and opinions no matter how personally confronting they may be.

Make no mistake, the pain and suffering in New York, although unique in America's history, is by no means unique in the world outside the US and is no more or less significant than the suffering of other nations.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:55:47 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel...
Message:
Mel,

You said:

...but I'm not so sure that women would have done any better than men, in my view that's typical feminist 'cult' thinking...

Feminism is not a cult. That's an insult. Read the statement from NOW. I'm not even a member of NOW. How could women have done any better for this world when in, especially the Middle East, Africa, India, women are considered expendible? How could women have done any better? The women who have held power in this world have not done much for the women of this world. Margaret Thatcher comes to mind.

Calling feminism a cult is plain stupid and ignorant.

There are men who are feminists. There are men who, having been educated by women, understand that violence is primarily caused by men around this world.

What power on a global scale, have women been able to obtain except through small groups of activists who work to stop violence on this planet.

I'm quite sure that women would do much better. Women are nurturers. I don't say that all women are oppressed, nor all men are oppressors. I only know what I witness on a small scale.

Feminism is a cult...wow...that's a new one...and pretty ignorant IMO. Educate yourself.
[ NOW Statement ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:13:09 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Mel...
Message:
Cynthia

I knew you'd disagree, but in my view any idealogy risks becoming a cult, it's the fanaticism of it's adherents that determines whether it has acheived a cult following or not. Clearly feminism is an idealogy and as a consequence runs the same risk.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:24:10 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The NOW statement is great...
Message:
and you'll notice I didn't accuse you of being too emtional either!

Mel ;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:27:35 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: The NOW statement is great...
Message:
Frankly, I am emotional right now. But I am not an extremist feminist. I just want all people, of all colors and genders to have freedom and justice on this planet.

I'm sorry I struck out.

As for feminism as an ideology, well, yes, there is that. But women and men who consider themselves feminists do good work, they act in order to try to change this out of control world.

Best,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 12:32:20 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia, and take care .....
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:23:13 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Rephrase - sorry
Message:
Cynthia

I said

Írrespective of gender we are all human beings, and your particular indignation should not be a reason to debate the issues,and share views and opinions no matter how personally confronting they may be

What i meant to say was...

Írrespective of gender we are all human beings, and your particular indignation should not be a reason to prevent debating the issues,and share views and opinions no matter how personally confronting they may be.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:46:39 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: P.S..And don't you dare...
Message:
tell me I'm being too emotional!

That's just too easy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:01:48 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: More bad news about terrorism.....
Message:
exactly, i'm amazed how lots of former hippies, yippies and what
have you identify so much with the terrorist u.s. adminstration.
this is where it all begins MY country, MY nation , can't believe
these guys were premies for almost 30 years..you are not your body,
you are not your mind....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:05:48 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: don p.
Message:
You are a premie. And now you bring a hateful message to us.

Read the message at the top of this board. Carefully. Since you've been brainwashed to belive you are not your body or mind, perhaps you need a little help.

Fuck off!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:03:06 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Triage.
Message:
Mel:

Obtain a couple of large lag hooks you can secure into the cieling, and then use them to hang upside down by your ankles to see if you can get bloodflow to your brain.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 02:47:01 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Completely innapropriate
Message:
Nothing like stomping someone in their hour of grief.

But I won't blame you as a premie because I've seen plenty of other posts here just as insensitive.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:15:46 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Completely innapropriate
Message:
Hamzen

What about the many hours (no,sorry...years) of grief that the US government has caused to thousands of families around the world. How sensitive are you to that?

Usually a time of grief is a time when people can take stock of things that they may normally be impervious to. Actually, this is a time to see other perspectives beyond hysteria and jingoism that seems about to sweep the US.

BTW,this is beyond petty premie/ex squabbles, so please don't let this particular prejudice of yours intrude.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:17:56 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Completely innapropriate
Message:
You like it better that Australia just closes its doors for fugitives?
To me that sounds like neglect, but of course that is much easier to get away with!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:16:15 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Fugitives or refugees?
Message:
Hi Bob

I assume you mean the Tampa situation. I've no problem with these particular people escaping from the unbelievable conditions in Afghanistan. I look forward to a favourable High Court decision granting them the asylum they seek in Australia.

I am, in fact, married to a refugee, but not from Afghanistan.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:45:37 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You're making me go down I route
Message:
I don't wanna, butr I casn't let this be.

Mel, your viewpoint I understand too well, it's almost identical to mine, and I've got global warming in there big time too, I just think it's WAY too early for christs sake.
If you can't understand that, well I don't know what to say.

And my point about premie/ex-premie was to show that my criticism had NOTHING to do with that issue at all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:59:51 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: You're making me go down I route
Message:
Hamzen

I just think it's WAY too early for christs sake.

So do you think we should we wait a few days until after the missiles hit Kabul and kill a few thousand more innocents before we face the facts? Is the American grieving process worth more than these lives?

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:01:16 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: You're making me go down I route
Message:
of course, all my muslim friends say that american blood and israeli
blood is worth much more than anybody elses....u.s. you are NOT the
center of the world as you erroniously believe...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 00:17:06 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: More bad news about terrorism.....
Message:
To help Scott and other American ex’s understand why there is a undercurrent of anger toward the US that may have helped catalyse this weeks catastrophy, I have attached a link that documents CIA involvement in support of death squads and terrorism over the last 50 years all over the world.

Gee, Mel, thanks for the help. We can always count on you. But no, it doesn't help explain how fanatics would fly a plane into a building. Not for me anyway. Maybe other countries just have their own demons to contend with the same as we do. Do you think that's possible, Mel, or does all evil in the world trace it's origins back to the Great Satan, America?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 01:25:57 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: More bad news about terrorism.....
Message:
Jerry

Gee, Mel, thanks for the help. We can always count on you.

Glad to oblige.

But no, it doesn't help explain how fanatics would fly a plane into a building.

There plenty of American fanatics who would now be quite to happy to 'Nuke the Moslems' because innocent American lives have been lost, maybe they would be able to explain the mindset to you.

Maybe other countries just have their own demons to contend with the same as we do.

Very true, but it also seems to me that these CIA activities could be included on the list of some of these countries' demons too.

... or does all evil in the world trace it's origins back to the Great Satan, America?

Not all evil, but obviously a very well documented portion of it!

Let's face it, Jerry, in all honesty, the US is not entirely blameless, now is it? I'm not particularly anti US, but sometimes I'm gob smacked at the US Government's incredible hypocrisy in it's domestic 'human rights' rhetoric and it's actual human rights track record, particularly in the Middle East and Latin America.

The role of apologist doesn't suit you, Jerry !

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:13:02 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: More bad news about your soul.
Message:
Mel:

Don't know whether you know it or not (or have simply forgotten it along with your middle name and date of birth) but the US has a *law* against the assination of civillians. This does not extend to 'combatants' who have, for one reason or another, pulled the target onto their own backs. This was not always the case, but it is now, and for the forseeable future. Clearly it does not apply to either Saddam Hussein or UBL, although Fidel falls into a gray area. But thanks for the lesson in brain damaged cult thinking, which by the way is the real reason behind the Act of War committed against the US on Sept. 11, 2001. Anger it was not.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:59:01 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: More bad news about your soul.
Message:
Hi Scott

the US has a *law* against the assination of civillians.

When will this law be applied for CIA operatives and their stooges?

When willthe US Goverment hand over Dr Kissinger to the Chilean courts who have requested his extradition to give evidence regarding the US support and covert involvement with the Pinochet regime?

Seems to me justice can only be served if it complies with US startegic interests. If it doesn't, well....

I'll ignore your snide remarks associating me with cult thinking, but I disgree with your notion that Tuesdays events are the sole result of 'cult thinking'. Certainly, that may have been a catalyst for this catastrophe, but I think you are deluding yourself if you refuse to acknowledge the existence and extent of anger towards the US and the reasons for it.

I was surprised by your tantrum and leaving the discussion the other day, describing opinions differing from yours as (I think) adolescent leftism.'

My country, my country (right or wrong!) Talk about cult thinking!

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:09:14 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: More bad news about your soul.
Message:
exactly...wonder if this is post of mine is being posted ..seems like
most of my posts are withheld by the forum god...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:27:36 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hear! Hear! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:18:26 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Blame America
Message:
Mel, I can see the argument where many Arabs feel threatened by the western way of life that has crept into their lands and dominated it, but obviously that's only because a substantial amount of Arabs have welcomed it. Those who reject it by turning to extreme measures of violence against innocent civilians are not unlike any other extremist militant group elsewhere. We have them here in our own country, (yes, those very individuals who would love to 'nuke Muslems') as I'm sure you do in Australia. It's the mindset that certain individuals fall into where they see the root of all their problems being the encroachment of outsiders contaminating their blessed way of life. These people are so single minded in their hatred of what they perceive as outside evils, there's no reasoning with them. So, to 'blame' America for what happenned on Tuesday doesn't really address what's happenning. You've first got to have a portion of a population that feels so disenfranchised by foreign agents that they will resort to such terror. And, personally, I don't see where somebody like bin Laden should feel that way. This guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. If you ask me, he's just fucked up in the head. from what I know, not even his own family wants to have anything to do with him. Unfortunately, there are a multitude of hate driven maniacs who find the outlet for their hate, that they're looking for, in the leadership of bin Laden and those like him who give them a target to hate. But no, Mel, 'blame' is not the right word. Maybe America has helped to cultivate the terrorist, but that's only because the sick mind of the terrorist was already there just looking for an outlet for it's madness.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:45:42 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Blame America
Message:
Jerry

So, to 'blame' America for what happenned on Tuesday doesn't really address what's happenning

My reference about 'blaming' was not particularly in reference to Tuesday's tragic events. It was about the history of US involvement in protecting it's own interests world wide and the extremes it has been prepared to got to. You would have to admit that there could also be an element of 'fanaticism' in the methods that they've used to persue their agenda. Maybe not in a passionate human sense, but more in a cold hearted 'corporate'sense. Anyway, you would definitely have to admit that the pain and suffering that they may have caused in countless lives in the process would probably dwarf the suffering caused by Tuesday's events. However unpalatable the facts are, they are also, unfortunately, true. This may be a good time as any to face up to them, it will probably be the only chance we all have.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:01:23 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Blame America
Message:
Mel,

It's true. America's policies have caused untold suffering in the world. It's true, it's true, it's true. And I'm saying that without, probably, knowing the full brunt of it. I'm wary of the corporate mindset, myself, and how far it will go to make a profit. I think it's criminal the abuse of foreign labor that's currently taking place because American labor, in it's long struggle for decent wages and working conditions, has chased the American maufacturer to foreign lands where respecting the rights of workers isn't so stringent. Believe me, it sickens me. And all this stuff about the CIA, what do you think, we're dumb and you're enlightening us? We've known about this shit since The Pentagon Papers. The fact is that in spite of what America may be guilty of itself, we still have a right to protect ourselves, to come and go about our business without worrying about a bomb blowing up in our face. Everybody has that right, everywhere. To dredge up what everybody already knows about the CIA is hardly going to help ensure that right, now is it? I can only surmise that you've got this great big bug up your ass about America and jump at every opportunity you can to expose our sins. That's not going to help anything. If you want to help the human spirit along in this process, you're not doing a very good job. Like hamzen pointed out, all you're really doing is kicking somebody when they're already down. What does that say about you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:29:10 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Blame America
Message:
Jerry

I can only surmise that you've got this great big bug up your ass about America and jump at every opportunity you can to expose our sins.

Not really, Jerry, but all we are hearing (in the rest of the world) is about America's suffering and apparent lust for revenge. All this talk of war and about how it's all the fault of this or that group, etc, etc, ad nauseum as though America is the only country in the world and no other nation has ever suffered so much!

Because of this, I think that America right now is the most dangerous and threatening country and in the world. I'm sorry if that confronts your yankee sensibilities and current grief, but it's true. The world is scared shitless as to how America is going to respond, and given it's documented covert track record in dealing with foreign policy it is a huge bug up everyone's arse (not just mine!)

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:16:54 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Blame America
Message:
yes, i have been told by my muslim friends (arabs, pakistani, afghani
etc) that the americans are a better people than the rest of the world,
their blood is more precious than others blood, a hue and cry starts
when for the first time in their history the u.s. is hit by a bomb
attack of that extent and the whole CIVILIZED WORLD as they like to
put it is SHOCKED....others lifes don't count..only u.s. and israeli
lifes..you poor suckers..you think the u.s. is the crown of creation,
what i would have expected of the americans was to blame the real cunts
who are responsible for that disaster : their own government !!!
but obviously they are too stupid to even see that....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 08:57:51 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: blame, etc.
Message:
I've been listening mostly to radio, CSPAN etc. and gotten a distinct impression, from all around me, that a *great deal* of restraint is being both urged and exercised. Much emphasis is being placed on caution and seeking alternatives to an egomaniacal retaliation.

I have never felt 'proud to be an American' having come of age during Vietnam, and leaving America for Canada when my brother and boyfriend were drafted. I live now in what I fondly refer to as the cheat and deceit capital of the world. (DC) Since Tuesday morning, expressions of caring and concern have come from people all around the globe, and have really astonished me. I expected entirely negative anti-american sentiments abroad, and an overkill version of 'bomb-bomb-bomb, bombbombiraq' (that's to the tune of 'Barbara Ann') locally.

Instead I have felt cared about by the rest of the world. It is a first, and has been encouraging for me. Canadians in particular have been extraordinary, both in contributions to relief efforts and compassionate sentiments towards the American people.
It's been interesting reading the posts below re: CIA facts vs. appropriate timing for US Bashing, etc., and whose fault is it anyway?
Either-or? I doubt it. This nasty stuff has purportedly been going on all around the world since the beginning of time. Now the sticks and stones are bigger and the planet is smaller. It's a complex web of sheer insanity.
Many people wonder how anyone could hate so fervently as to undertake such an attack. I've heard and read a great deal of commentary about the intensive programming that people such as these terrorists have gotten, from a very young age and it reminds me of a song from the musical South Pacific:
'You've got to be taught to hate and fear
you've got to be taught, from year to year
it's got to be drummed in your dear little ear,
you've got to be carefully taught.
...You've got to be taught before it's too late,
before you are six or seven or eight,
to hate all the people your relatives hate,
you've got to be carefully taught.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:34:17 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Re: blame, etc.
Message:
Annie

You're right, there is an incredible outpouring of support for the victims of this attack, and international boundaries, religions or race are no barrier to the genuine compassion.

There is also another message coming through loud and clear and is now directly expressed in US media with a one word headline, unfortunately that word is not 'restraint' as you seem to think, it's 'war'. This is the clear message of the US government.

When the hurt turns to anger and the urge for revenge takes over the compassion will evaporate into fear. It's already starting to.

You can rest well assured that the US government has already frightened the Pakistani government with dire consequences if it does not comply with it's wishes for access to Pakistan to mount an assault on Afghanistan,if necessary. Who could resist an angry US with all it's firepower, especially when Bush has made it abundantly clear that this is war between Good and Evil, and if your not with us, well.....

In my view this has really got beyond the stage of speculation of that cult thinking and Islamic brain washing is the only manipulation that is going on. Uncle Sam's media programming machine is now gearing up for an excerise in jingoistic cult thinking that will make Maharaji's alleged attempts pale into insignificance by comparison and rival the best of the Islamic efforts. Look and see, it's already happening....

Did you know that the average Afghani has no TV and that there is no infrastructure as we know it their country? Apart from some radio broadcasts and frightening rumours sweeping the population, some Afghanis may even die as innocent victims of a US led military reprisal without even knowing what happened in New York. Can you comprehend this? Can you imagine the terror that is right now sweeping the country? Would you agree that the terror for them right now is any less than the terror that Americans have experienced?

The decisions have been made and we can only pray that the outcome will be 'restraint'.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 08:55:57 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: blame, etc.
Message:
I've been listening mostly to radio, CSPAN etc. and gotten a distinct impression, from all around me, that a *great deal* of restraint is being both urged and exercised. Much emphasis is being placed on caution and seeking alternatives to an egomaniacal retaliation.

I have never felt 'proud to be an American' having come of age during Vietnam, and leaving America for Canada when my brother and boyfriend were drafted. I live now in what I fondly refer to as the cheat and deceit capital of the world. (DC) Since Tuesday morning, expressions of caring and concern have come from people all around the globe, and have really astonished me. I expected entirely negative anti-american sentiments abroad, and an overkill version of 'bomb-bomb-bomb, bombbombiraq' (that's to the tune of 'Barbara Ann') locally.

Instead I have felt cared about by the rest of the world. It is a first, and has been encouraging for me. Canadians in particular have been extraordinary, both in contributions to relief efforts and compassionate sentiments towards the American people.
It's been interesting reading the posts below re: CIA facts vs. appropriate timing for US Bashing, etc., and whose fault is it anyway?
Either-or? I doubt it. This nasty stuff has purportedly been going on all around the world since the beginning of time. Now the sticks and stones are bigger and the planet is smaller. It's a complex web of sheer insanity.
Many people wonder how anyone could hate so fervently as to undertake such an attack. I've heard and read a great deal of commentary about the intensive programming that people such as these terrorists have gotten, from a very young age and it reminds me of a song from the musical South Pacific:
'You've got to be taught to hate and fear
you've got to be taught, from year to year
it's got to be drummed in your dear little ear,
you've got to be carefully taught.
...You've got to be taught before it's too late,
before you are six or seven or eight,
to hate all the people your relatives hate,
you've got to be carefully taught.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:06:18 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Blame America
Message:
Mel,

I'm scared of the leadership of America, too. I feel alienated from it and have for some time now. It just seems to be the governemnt of the rich these days, not the people, and their agenda and POV on how to deal with this trgedy does frighten me somwhat. I can imagine how the rest of the world must feel. Your worries are well noted. Hopefully, we won't do anything stupid in the aftermath of this tragedy that can only make matters worse. We have done that in the past, and I only hope we've learned our lesson.

Best wishes, Mel.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:39:22 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks, Jerry....
Message:
....it's good that you've acknowledged another perspective

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:39:20 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks, Jerry....
Message:
....it's good that you've acknowledged another perspective

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:00:39 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: an additional thought...
Message:
Just reading the link again.....

I can't help thinking that Bin Laden's rating in the terrorism 'Hall of Fame' is truly insignificant when compared to the CIA's rating, the only difference, of course, is that Bin Laden's efforts appear successfully directed against the US and the West

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 23:03:21 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The CIA
Message:
Yes, the CIA has been involved in a lot of awful shit. To some extent it has been reigned in because a lot of the travesties were more over-looked because of the Cold War, and no that's over, so no more excuses. Since then, there have been restrictions.

But the thing about the CIA is not only that it's brutal, but it's almost completely inept. It didn't know that the Soviet Union was crumbling, didn't know that Iran was going to seize our embassy, didn't know that there had been Soviet troops in Cuba for many years, didn't know that India was going to explode a nuclear weapon, and apprently had no idea that terrorists, in one of the most widespread and sophisticated and lenghty operations in history, were going to fly airliners into office towers and the Pentagon. Then, they had spies within the organization, including Ames, who was giving information to the Soviets for years, and nobody seemed to notice that he was living like a multi-millionaire on a CIA salary. DUH!

Part of the ineptness comes from it's belief that you can rely on technology and CIA agents don't have to get their hands dirty talking to acutal people. Guess what, that doesn't work.

But our response is always to throw more money at it. The CIA is rotten and inept to the core and we would be better of chucking it and starting over.

But by the way, Mel, Australia has things it should be ashamed of, too. One is the atrocious way it supported the brutal and deadly Indonesian army in its occupation and suppression of East Timor. Australia has a lot of blood on its hands for that one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 00:50:34 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The CIA
Message:
Hi Joe

But by the way, Mel, Australia has things it should be ashamed of, too. One is the atrocious way it supported the brutal and deadly Indonesian army in its occupation and suppression of East Timor. Australia has a lot of blood on its hands for that one

True, no argument from me on that !

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:10:03 (EDT)
From: Help Needed
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Help
Message:
CNN Dog food and Dog boots needed for the rescue dogs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:26:31 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Help Needed
Subject: Nothing like a war to increase sales
Message:
I got this web site sent to me in a bulk email. I've ordered five. One for over my front door, one for the back, one for my car, one in the living room and one in the toilet.
[ Get your flags here ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:47:23 (EDT)
From: yelnaws
Email: None
To: All
Subject: re rick
Message:
tell me more
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:58:54 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: yelnaws
Subject: Re: re rick
Message:
Hi
why did my post to Yelnaws go away????
Please explain
Ulf
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:52:52 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Hi Ulf
Message:
This thread is probably going to be deleted. Yelnaws doesn't know how to communicate.

If you decide to email him, please take care, he may be a troll, taking advantage of you.

Best to you,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:20:51 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Hi Ulf
Message:
Hi Cynthia
Thanks a lot, i know you are very noble, and i love your advise
but knowing how it is to be not english , i was feeling i would give the human a change ,,, but i am not a fool , and i wouldt have seen
a statement of dishonesty at first look
i have been there ,, yes ???

Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:00:33 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Re: Hi Ulf
Message:
Hi Ulf,

It was the fluctuation between broken English, not a real accent and him/her using quite good English that has made me conclude this is a troll.

Much love to you,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:44:30 (EDT)
From: yelnaws
Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com
To: Ulf
Subject: Re; ULF
Message:
Hi Ulf they think i am against them, they dont seem to believe who i am u seem nicethank for ur letter.
You can e mail me if u wish.
Or whatever
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:28:45 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: yelnaws
Subject: Re: Re; ULF
Message:
Hi Yelnaws
I am not sure about you???????

For me only english people use U , and not you

Please tell me more about yourself
I am still scared about the way the cult made me act
So i dont have any time for easy talk

Best wishes Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:11:31 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: I did it
Message:
I have decided that this person is a troll and his intentions are to disrupt the forum. If you are interested in further contact with him, please do so by email. I can't let trolls take over the discussion and personally, at this time, I have no patience for people who like to play games.

Hey Ulf! I like your posts and I can understand your English easily. My family was originally from Denmark by way of Ireland. Do you know the surname 'Lyng?' That's my last name. There is a city or town in Danmark called 'Lyngby' I think. 'By' meaning burg, right? I don't want to censor your discussion but this person is not being straight with us, in my opinion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:07:39 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I did it
Message:
Hey gerry
I did not see all of Yelnawss post , but i did feel that perhaps he was misunderstood, so i would take the risk of talking to him

knowing what i know , when i first came here .

But i trust your jugdement..

And now Gerry , i got a big surprise for you ,
I am born in Lyngby , in a litlle town just outside lyngby
Called Brede
Just 1 k.m. away
For me Lyngby was the big town ,

Your town is called (now ? ) the Kings lyngby
That is because there is another Lyngby , there is far more near germany, so you dont mix them.

But the main lyngby is here, and i think thats the one you are talking about
There is a lot of history to the town

Is a very nice town outside copenhagen,lots of woods there ,i used to go to lyngby when i was a kid for fishing, not salt water ,, big fish there ,, so much fun,, i would love to invite you, we could go fishing
togheter
In danish LYNG is the name of a tiny litlle flowers

that grow in meadows places,,, blue shinning to the sky,, very smalll
I will show you someday , come to denmark,,,,
Best wishes
Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:29:10 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Ulf
Subject: I feel so good
Message:
Well, maybe some of it is due to the pale ale, but your post warmed the cockles of my heart. Thank you Ulf, that was very fun to read.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:52:20 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: yelnaws
Subject: a piece of advice
Message:
Hi,

If you are really troubled by Rawat it would be of great help, to yoruself, if you express your feelings. Talk. We understand.

Best wishes,

silvia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:36:09 (EDT)
From: yelnaws
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: sylvia
Message:
Hi sylvia u seem very nice what is up with the rest
It is like a battle field here
I dident know i had to go to war
anyway i have sent you an email
PS .....To the others i can read as well
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:38:49 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: yelnaws
Subject: As someone said to you
Message:
many premies have come to our ex-premies forum and lied to us and since we've offered you our help, our ears, and you didn't responded you became a 'suspect'. Premies are not liked much here, for obvious reasons.

I hope you are okay. Feel free to write here whatever you like or need; I'll answer.

Love,

silvia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:51:02 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: yelnaws
Subject: Re: re rick
Message:
Sure, Bubba. Maharaji is a dirt-bag, scum-sucking, greasy, inarticulate, uneducated, arrogant, deceitful bastard.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:44:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US
Message:
from SkyNews

Well everyone, listen to what Saddam has to say:

Iraqi president Saddam Hussein has urged the US not to take military action in retaliation for attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.

In an 'open letter' broadcast live on Iraqi television, interspersed with images of burning stars and stripes flags, he said: 'America needs wisdom, not force. It had used force along with the West, to its extreme extent, only to find out later that it did not achieve what they wanted.

'Will the rulers of America try wisdom just for once so that their people can live in security and stability?'

What do you think?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:51:58 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US
Message:
surprise. i think he's telling us something we are going to ignore, with sad results.
the guy is right. but no one will listen.
i have been reading interviews with bin ladin as well. they dont hate us, the people, they hate the american government. that cia list is good start.
it pays to walk a mile in the other guys shoes and see what its like to be them, before leaping into sumary action.
i belong to Working Assets. i feel as they do.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 23:10:19 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: If they whoever they are don't hate ....
Message:
....the American people why did they just murder 5000 + of the American people?

They whoever they are hate your guts , believe it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 23:47:56 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: i will post bin laden's interview
Message:
i got from a friend off the NPR website.
its revealing. the man's transcendent faith in allah is stunning.
to this particular point, his response is' the US makes no distinction when it bombs and kills women, children, animals, and the Koran tells us to reciprocate to our enemies as they do to us. when the US stops doing this to us, we will cease doing it to them.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:59:53 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: If thy
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:35:29 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You've got to admire Saddam's cheek
Message:
Sharon is worried now because Bush is trying to get Arafat and the Palestinians into the coalition and has asked Sharon to hold a cease fire. Sharon has disagreed to a ceasefire and has intensified attacks on the Palestinians in the hope that he can get a quick military solution. Sharon is annoyed that Bush does not see the Palestinians as the enemy but instead has asked them to join the coalition.

So if Bush pulls Palestine into the coalition, Sharon and Israel will be isolated and in the end, forced to climb down. Looks like Bush isn't as dumb as he looks. Certainly not dumb if he's got Pakistan on his side overnight and what all this means to Saddam Hussain is that he himself is going to become isolated within the Arab world - not something he wanted. He won't be able to stand up as the great leader who is going to fight against the great Satan of America on behalf of all Muslim nations if Eygypt, Pakistan, The Palestinians and other Muslim nations are joined within the coalition against terrorism.

George W Bush might this time do what his Father couldn't do - invade Iraq and take out Saddam Hussain. If Bush can get the international agreement to do this, he will. Saddam Hussain can see the writing on the wall. He is no peacemaker. He's trying to save his ass.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:01:51 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Give peace a chance
Message:
In case anyone didn't know, Saddam is a creation of the CIA. He holds his current position of power curtesy of the USA. During the eighties, Saddam was big buddies with and business partners with...guess who...Papa Bush.

Sadam, whose territory historically included Kuwait, complained to his mentor George Herbert Walker Bush that the Kuwaitis were slant drilling his oil reserves. Uncle George told Sadammy, go ahead take it, then fucked his protege over and stabbed him in the back. Ah such are the wilies of good ole Unca Sam. Yokes on you, Sadammy!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 21:08:30 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Give peace a chance
Message:
I don't know anything about the slant drilling business but the 'territory that historically included Kuwait' bit is way off the mark.

Kuwait , Bahrein , Abu Dhabi , Oman & the other Trucial states were nominally part of the Ottoman Empire when Britain offered them protection from their proxy rulers in Istanbul in the 19thC.

Iraq & its border with Kuwait was created by a British surveyor who drew straight lines across empty desert that no-one at the time (30's ?) wanted .

Saddam's claim on Kuwait is as ridiculous as a British claim on Boston would be.

You guys are really going to have to get a grip on who's lying & who isn't or we're all fucked.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:24:44 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Give peace a chance
Message:
Pat,

My understanding is that Syria, Iraq, Eqypt, Transjordan, the various Arab Emirates et al were all part of the Ottoman Empire (a centuries old multi-cultural Islamic Empire that took in modern Turkey, North Africa, the Middle East, and in Europe, Romania, Bulgaria, and former Yugoslavia.) The Ottomans allied with Germany in the First World War. Following its defeat the Ottoman Empire was dismembered and independent countries formed instead. The British mostly drew the new map, largely following the administrative divisions used by the Ottomans.

In the case of Kuwait, it was indeed historically a province of Iraq, and that was also the case under the Ottoman Empire. But in the aftermath of the First World War the Brits wanted safe anchorage in the Gulf, and access to oil. So we sucked up to the local wealthy families, agreeing to help them into power, in exchange for their 'friendship'. It was in this spirit that Kuwait was carved out of the historical Iraq and made into a client state of (initially) Britain.

The slant drilling into an oil field that underlay both Iraq and Kuwait did take place. The Iraqis regarded this as an expropriation of their own natural resouces and asked the Kuwaitis to stop. That they did not is held to have been a trigger to the Iraqi invasion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:08:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Give peace a chance
Message:
Yeah Pappa Bush also bosom buddies with 'Danny' Ortega. Lots of stuff avg. American doesn't know about politics.

Take care Gerry,

Deb

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:00:01 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US
Message:
I think he's a gangster & if he gets it cos of all this then too bad whether he had anything to do with it or not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:13:10 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Can you be more specific? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:58:35 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US
Message:
There really isn't a solution. The WTC bombings didn't come with a list of demands. These guys want to destroy Western civilization and they may be unstoppable no matter what we try.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 05:40:33 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: That's right ...
Message:
There really isn't a solution. The WTC bombings didn't come with a list of demands. These guys want to destroy Western civilization and they may be unstoppable no matter what we try.


---

... but chill. A corollary of what you say is that they gave it their best shot already, OK? So you can stop worrying about an immediate biological/chemical/nuclear follow-up. Of course, an enraged Uncle Sam may well make more enemies and that could change, but for now you've (we've) got time to think things through.

Why is America unpopular in the world (yet the world would move there in a heartbeat)?

'It's the foreign policy, stupid'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:11:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US
Message:
Than Saddam saying, 'Give the other guys a head start!'

He almost sounds sincere. Do you think the perpetrators are consolable? Sounds like Saddam knows the situation intimately.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:11:44 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: SADDAM'S PLEA TO THE US
Message:
Than Saddam saying, 'Give the other guys a head start!'

Well, yeah. The U.S. has been doing damage to Sadaam for ten years. He has no love for America.

Do you think the perpetrators are consolable? Sounds like
Saddam knows the situation intimately.

Consolable? Like maybe up for a cup of tea? I doubt it. Imagine the strongest hate you've ever felt and multiply that by 10,000, and that's probably what they feel towards America.

On the other hand, if we all agreed to live by Islamic law, they might find that consoling. Of course, you'd have to knock off your posting on the Internet because you're a woman.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:43:47 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: What I meant was
Message:
Rick,

I wasn't maybe clear enough in my comment. I responded to saying:

Do you think the perpetrators are consolable? Sounds like
Saddam knows the situation intimately.

What I meant was that do you think Saddam is right, meaning that the problem is in our government leaders, rather than the fact that the whole world is not of Muslim faith. Maybe they JUST do not want us to inflict our values on them or impose our selfish requests that insult or threaten their religious convictions.

I know it's a lot of sorting out. But my first impresssion is that faith is NOT the primary issue.

In an interview with Bin Laden that Salam linked us to in one of his posts, Bin Laden was strictly talking about the leaders, not the people. And in the comment I posted from Saddam, he is doing the same.

I don't know if they are demanding that the world adhere to their faith. That's what I meant.

fondly,

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: What I meant was
Message:
Hi Deborah,
I think ultimately they are demanding the world adhere to their faith. I also think the distinction between the leaders and the people is a red herring.

If the people support the leaders, and chose the leaders to represent them, then the people are included in the terrorists' hatred. Certainly if the American people didn't support their leaders before this incident, they do now. If the American leaders were the only target, why didn't the terrorists just strike the leaders? They hit buildings with 5,000 people and no leaders. I guess the bombing of the Pentagon would be considered striking the leaders but that was a small fraction of the damage.

If the terrorists' had some actual demands, they would have communicated them. Bin Laden has expressed he wants to destroy the U.S., not change its policies.

Maybe the U.S. could have avoided this by not getting involved in the mid-east in the first place, but I don't see the terrorists bargaining in any way.

I haven't heard anyone being interviewed in the western media suggest the terrorists have some demands, and they haven't expressed them.

Respectfully,
Rick

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:35:07 (EDT)
From: yelnaws
Email: None
To: All
Subject: to all the nice people
Message:
I am a troll. I am a lap dog to my master, fat ass Rawrat. I am here to waste your time and cause trouble. This message will self destruct with the help of the FA (gerry) in a few minutes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:39:21 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: yelnaws
Subject: Re: to all the nice people
Message:
Guru Maharaj Ji is a big, fat, nasty, ugly, lying, cheating, substance-abusing, pedophile-supporting, fraudalent, boring cult leader.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:59:27 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: and he's short.
Message:
so there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:56:38 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Yelnaws...
Message:
You were blocked yesterday, if you're so computer illeritate as you stated, how did you come back?

GET LOST! Pervert

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:53:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: This post was not deleted
Message:
Hi Cynthia, This post was already up when Gerry said that it was blocked. I noticed Gerry deleted some lower posts but when I left the computer yesterday this post was still standing.

Hope your doing well,

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:27:51 (EDT)
From: Forum janitor
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Time to buff the floors...
Message:
IF there are no (or only few) objections, I'll delete the thread where don puerco delights in murder and mayhem and clean up a few more messy spills.

Silvia, I admire your impulse to help Yalnews and you will have to continue that by private email. I strongly believe it is that creep from Spain who is blocked and continues to post under different aliases and from proxy servers. There is a lot we can do to track down these pests and to report them to their ISPs. Most Internet service providers are taking a hard stand against internet stalkers and are quite cooperative in limiting their activities.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:00:12 (EDT)
From: Buffy
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Forum janitor
Subject: Re: Time to buff the floors...
Message:
Just a point. CACA and charles has Spanish translation on their sites, am only wondering if there is any relation between them. What area in Spain, isp blah blah blah. I just happen to have few 'associates' in Spain that may be willing to investigate or maybe not.

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:53:42 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Forum janitor
Subject: is up to u
Message:
You may be right.

Have my 'blessings'::) I think you are right.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:41:42 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Start buffin'... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:29:38 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Forum janitor
Subject: You have my vote [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:22:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is 'war' the right word?
Message:
Yes, there should be a well thought out campaign against terrorism where we build a wall so high it can't climb over it, or better still, find a way to eradicate it so such a wall isn't necessary. But is the proper word for this 'war'? After thinking about it, I don't think so. The word 'war' summons up visions of warriors in tanks and jets and on battleships engaged in furious battles with other such warriors.

In the campaign against terrorism, no such battles are going to take place, or at least, IMHO, they shouldn't. That would be just a lashing out with no concern for the consequences, non of which can be good. I think this campaign against terrorism needs to be much more covert than that. Right now, people are bandying about the word 'war' as if, any day now, bombs are going to start dropping, and perhaps hoping that is what it means.

I hope the President makes it clear that this is going to be a 'war' unlike any we've ever fought before where the soldiers on the front lines are going to be more unseen than seen and that the enemy, preferrably, can be brought to justice through non violent means. Terrorists, after all, are criminals. To think of them as soldiers fighting for a cause gives them too much honor. They are scum, pure and simple. They are fundamentalists that want to tear down civilazation and send it back to a medieval age. They don't care how many innocents they have to murder to achieve that end. They should be hunted down and be dealt with as criminals, not soldiers.

So, if what we're fighting here is really criminals instead of soldiers, is 'war' against them the proper way of looking at it. I know there's a 'war' on crime, and a 'war' on drugs, but nobody confuses the context in those cases the way I think a lot of people are confusing the way the word 'war' is being used in the context of terrorism. It's really up to the President to clarify this, and the way he's been talking, I'm afraid he might be confused about it himself. I hope I'm wrong.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:49:25 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Is 'war' the right word?
Message:
I think when Bush says war he means it; big explosions, lots of blood, bombs, rockets, guns, the whole thing. People want revenge and who better than a guy like Bush to give it them. Do you think Bush is smart enough to have pulled off a stunt like the WTC incident? I mean, imagine he's the leader and he has to organize and execute it. No way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:33:49 (EDT)
From: Repost of
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Some practical ways to help (ot)
Message:
A friend sent me this - thought I'd repost it. Have also heard that there is a great need for respirators with replaceable cartridges, welding torches and gloves, protective goggles, hard hats, work boots. The people in NYC have enough food, water, and clothing (except for items noted above) for now.

Here's a list compiled by someone in a journalist's email group I am in.

HOW TO HELP

* Blood and platelet donors will be needed over the next several weeks to help replenish the nation's supply. Call the Red Cross at 1-800-GIVE-LIFE or America's Blood Centers at 1-888-BLOOD-88 to schedule an appointment. Please
note that long waits have been the norm for blood donors nationwide this week; if possible, call your local hospital first to find out when to donate with a shorter waiting time.

* To donate money to the Red Cross for assisting victims of the September 11th attacks, call 1-800-HELP-NOW.

* The United Way of New York and The New York Community Trust have established a fund to help the victims of the attacks and their families. Anyone wishing to contribute may call (212) 251-4035.

* Don't forget the four-legged heroes working hard to sniff out survivors and perform recovery services at the WTC and Pentagon sites. The search and rescue squads need help, too. The dogs' paws are being cut up as they cross the rubble and they have to be retired early for fear of infection. The S&R human volunteers are asking for booties for their dogs' paws and first aid kits for the animals. There's a Web site, www.ruffwear.com/donations, which is accepting donations of their site's paw protectors and first aid kits, among other products, and will send the gear to the S&R squads ASAP.

A colleague heard two stories about brave dogs at the WTC site
---
one a Labrador retriever who led his human, a blind man, down 80 flights and to safety; the other a mutt who has saved the lives of several rescue workers twice and ended up himself in the canine ICU after inhaling too much dust.

The rescue workers carried the dog off on a stretcher and made sure that he got the best care possible. Just another option for those looking to help.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:46:26 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: dalilswami@freeatlast.com
To: All
Subject: 'national emergency':democracy in peril
Message:
there was not only horrific carnage and destruction - but democracy itself was attacked

r.e. democracy and elections: the New York state primaries taking place on Tuesday morning 9/11 were immediately cancelled and rescheduled.

Imagine if it had been election day nationwide in the USA - or in any nation hit by terrorism.

r.e. freedom: Similarly, under the umbrella of 'national emergency', Americans' civil liberties may be restricted, and articles of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights infringed.

related article [NY Times]: 9/12/1
September 12, 2001

THE ELECTIONS

Pataki Orders Postponement of Primaries Across State

  Interactive Feature: Terror Attacks

Barely five hours after the polls opened in New York City, Gov. George E. Pataki ordered primary elections across the state postponed indefinitely yesterday as city officials struggled to cope with the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.
Mr. Pataki's executive order stopped the election literally in midstream: polls were open, New Yorkers were voting, and the candidates were attending to their last subway stops, interviews, telephone calls and literature distribution.
Instead, upon hearing the news — or seeing, as was the case with two of the mayoral candidates, the smoke billowing from the World Trade Center towers — the candidates headed for hospitals to donate blood, or their offices to follow the events, or home to join stunned family members.
Elections officials said it was the first time in memory that a primary had been postponed after voting had begun (city primaries were delayed by 12 days in 1981 in a dispute with the Justice Department over election procedures), and there was considerable confusion at the Board of Elections and at the campaigns about how this might play out.
Mr. Pataki's assistants said they had no idea when the election might be rescheduled.
Next Tuesday would presumably not work because it is the Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashana, one of the holiest days on the Jewish calendar. The following Tuesday, Sept. 25, was supposed to be the date of a runoff in the Democratic primary for mayor of New York, presuming that none of the four major candidates drew more than 40 percent of the vote, as had seemed likely.
One option, officials said, would be to hold the primary election on that day, and hold the runoff two weeks later, thus cutting into the length of the general election season.
The governor, citing his authority under state law, issued the order late yesterday morning, after a second plane crashed into the World Trade Center complex. Assistants to the major candidates said that given the turn of events, they would refrain from campaigning for the time being.
One question that will have to be confronted in the days ahead is whether votes that were cast yesterday morning should be thrown out or counted as part of the final total. That would keep people from having to vote twice.
Beyond timing, there is the matter of financing.
Under the city's campaign finance law, the candidates are allowed to spend a set amount of money for the primary, the runoff and the general election. The candidates agreed to the spending limits in exchange for winning subsidies from the city for their campaign.
Primaries were being held in most of the 62 counties in New York yesterday, according to state election officials. Among the primaries canceled was one in Nassau County between Assemblyman Thomas P. DiNapoli and Thomas R. Suozzi, two Democrats vying for county executive.
In New York City, the candidates responded to the disaster in different ways. Among the Democrats, Mark Green, the public advocate, returned to his Upper East Side home to his family. Alan G. Hevesi, the city comptroller, went to his office downtown where, he said, he watched both buildings collapse from his window.
Peter F. Vallone, the City Council speaker, handed out cups of water to commuters walking over the 59th Street bridge. Fernando Ferrer, the Bronx borough president, was preparing to go donate blood to help the victims.
One of the Republican mayoral candidates, Michael R. Bloomberg, a communications billionaire, learned that three employees of his private corporation, Bloomberg L.P., were on the top floor of one of the twin towers, giving a seminar, just before the incident, said his spokesman, William Cunningham.
Mr. Cunningham said there was no word on whether those employees had escaped.
The other Republican candidate, Herman Badillo, also had a change of plans. He had intended to spend the day campaigning in the Bronx, and then head off to vote at 3:30 p.m. He never had that opportunity.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:00:37 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril
Message:
Such,
You have a cool, level head. What would you suggest to be the best way to handle all this, if someone in power asked?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:45:14 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril
Message:
Such,
You have a cool, level head. What would you suggest to be the best way to handle all this, if someone in power asked?


---

get consolidated multi-national cooperation to apprehend bin Laden and terrorist associates/operatives. have an international public trial at the Hague. methodically root out all international terrorist cells.

have the UN get Israel and Palestine together to sort out some of the issues. US put pressure on Israel and PLO to moderate tone and policies, in the interests of peaceful co-existence.

feature photos/stories of the victims and their families on televisions worldwide - so that everyone will understand that we are a family - all in the same situation.

pray for peace in the hearts of humanity.

donate money to the International Red Cross and Oxfam refugee relief.

keep your investments where they are, for the moment; don't fuel a panic.

volunteer at a local public school, homeless shelter, food bank, etc.

mandate El-Al type security measures at all airports and on all airliners, and install a bomb-proof door to all commercial airliner cockpits. or, build armor-plated cockpits.

maintain vigilance over all major dams, nuclear plants, railroads, bridges, large buildings, public places.

be wary of suspending any citizen freedoms/rights or changing democratic constitutions. do not give blanket powers to anti-terrorist authorities, but rather have careful checks and balances and appropriate civilian oversight of anti-terrorist organisations.

schedule lots of small free concerts of appropriate acoustic chamber music and programme soothing inspirational instrumental music on more radio stations. e.g. Appalachian Spring, The Lark Ascending, Gorecki Symphony #3, Barber Adagio, pastoral music, etc.

teach peace to children, and set an appropriate example in word and deed.

... that's just for starters...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:39:50 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril
Message:
Thank you very very much. I am feeling truly frustrated living in this country. Since the presidential election, when we all saw that our vote really didn't matter. Now it's the same thing. What the people 'want' seems to only validate Bush's agenda on polls. I don't believe it.

This morning, on one of the national news shows, a widow of a man who died in the Pentagon debacle said she wants peace, not revenge. She doesn't want any other woman to be in her shoes. It was very brave, how and what she spoke. It's like there's no where to go in this country, unless to wave a flag and shout for revenge. The Bush family, with their audacity of telling us to go back to work while he prepares for war...what an ass. Why doesn't he put those twins of his in uniform and send them off to war first?

Please post more of what you think. It helps.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:44:23 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Thank you for that Such... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 19:35:34 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: 'national emergency':democracy in peril
Message:
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

We must not allow our countries governments to react to these terrible events by increasing the curtailments of individual liberties.

We must insist rather that the extension of these liberties to those in the many nations where they do not exist be the end goal of the coming violent reaction.

If we do not do this we are lost.

In response to the posts below from Rick & Salam : Afghanistan is ungovernable & unconquerable to any outsider. The only way to defeat the Taliban is to give military support to their enemies & to buy up the opium crop with gold .

That's just for starters , if we want our system to prevail worldwide then we must make it worthwhile for the excluded ones to join in & this will cost a shitload . I believe the American people & their friends can & must rise to this challenge.

Love to all : Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:24:04 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Fucking AYE, Pat!
Message:
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

We must not allow our countries governments to react to these terrible events by increasing the curtailments of individual liberties.

We must insist rather that the extension of these liberties to those in the many nations where they do not exist be the end goal of the coming violent reaction.

If we do not do this we are lost.

In response to the posts below from Rick & Salam : Afghanistan is ungovernable & unconquerable to any outsider. The only way to defeat the Taliban is to give military support to their enemies & to buy up the opium crop with gold .

That's just for starters , if we want our system to prevail worldwide then we must make it worthwhile for the excluded ones to join in & this will cost a shitload . I believe the American people & their friends can & must rise to this challenge.

Love to all : Pat Dorrity


---

Gawd, I'm so glad you said that. Yes, Opium is a big part of the equation. The 'Golden Cresent' as it is called (as opposed to the 'Golden Triangle') is the source of heroin in the whole world now.

Fuck all! The US government, as well as the UK are in the drug trade in a huge way. For a long time. TOTAL CORRUPTION AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS !!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 22:23:48 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Fucking AYE, Pat!
Message:
How do think most of the dectators of the world justify there rule. it's all in the name of

National Security

If Americans allow elections to be banned, a single person to hold all power, the army to walk down the street with machine guns, parilement supporting one track decisions, air traffic cannceled, borders shut, wars legetimised, ethnic violence, then you are asking to live in a dectatorship, a very scary one too.

I will think many times before I allow myself down that path.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:31:12 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: He's history, Cynth
Message:
Soon as I get back from my hike, I'll block this idiot and delete this thread.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:55:33 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: don't
Message:
see if she/he talks more. This person send me an e-mail and it seems sincere, but mentally confusaed, as many of us were at some time.

If you do not delete/block catweasel or others, why do RIGHT AWAY with this person? We do not YET what is going on. Wait please.

If I could I would post her/his e-mail to me, and will do it with her/his permission....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:28:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: don't
Message:
Silvia this person is confused and is a trouble maker as well. There is nothing sincere about this thing's posts.

The posts are meant to try and get a rise out of us. Sick sense of humour, but some of the premies are like that.

I vote 'DELETE' and go on. It's not like we're sending missles to the person, it's own a deletion of the post.

How are you doing, anyways? Send me an email.

Lots of love to you,

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:20:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: don't - why?
Message:
I've never experienced someone having problems with English and diction because they are confused or upset. What was the diction like on the email s/he sent you? When this person first showed up, you came back and said it was a she. I've read all the posts and this person fluctuates between a made-up sounding accent, and regular English.

I hope your attention to this person doesn't waste your time...

I know, I know, we've discussed it before. I'm not trying to dictate to you at all. I just have a feeling that this person isn't legit.
Yelnaws asked again if Maharaji is the anti-christ below. I posted a link to EPO, asking him/her to read and come back. No go.

Yelnaws is poking into threads and doesn't at all seem to be in any peril. As for Catweasal, I haven't a clue why s/he is not blocked.

Please take care, that's my concern...
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:49:20 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks Ger
Message:
It's too annoying. Don't like the shit it stirs up in the regular posters as well. Idiot has nothing better to do, at a time like this.

Religious fanaticism is lethal. Thanks for the block. And the delete.

hope you're fareing well

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 15:24:34 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Check out the turd in toilet bowl...
Message:
Here's a message from the Reverend RawRat speaking from the golden throne at Goober.Org:

In this hour of need, dear God
Grant us your grace,
Guide us from darkness to light
From confusion to clarity
From pain to joy
From hate to love.
Give us the strength to endure.
Give us the courage to go on.
Bless us with your kindness.

Maharaji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:51:01 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: A throwback to the Knowledge session
Message:
Oh My Guru Maharaji, I dedicate my life to you... bring me from darkness into light, from hatred into love...

Now along with that it's 'confusion to clarity', 'pain to joy'. A little bit of the old, a little bit of the new, I guess.

Do you think he really means it? I don't. Just more posturing if you ask me, right up there with Dubya and the rest of them, although Dubya probably does feel more of a loss than Goober. If I recall correctly, Maha never did have much good to say about the American way of life although he has made a pretty penny here, hasn't he?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 15:53:54 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: when did THAT appear there?
Message:
do you know?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:02:00 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I don't know
Message:
Imagine, godin a bod praying to himself.

Also, since not a leaf moves without the big RawRat, I'd like to say fuck you RawRat, you butt wipe...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:29:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: he's placating his following
Message:
And trying to save whatever is left of his face.
Can't wait to hear the gushing over this from AB or BC or ....
anyway M is a small pea in a small pod as this goes on though I am sure he is concerned about the economic ramifications.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:35:44 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: he's placating his following
Message:
No mention of the tragedy on EV or Visions, I just checked.

And private aircraft is grounded....

what a urug!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:43:26 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: he had to say something
Message:
M has taught through 3 decades - feelings and thoughts are misleading, distractions from the truth... on and on
Focus, direct your energy to what is real inside and all will fall into place, blah blah blah
Must have been quite a task for him to come up with those few sentences. Congrats to his spin writers. I find them as dispicable as he is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:28:49 (EDT)
From: Cynthai
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Me, too, Selene
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:18:48 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Well, It Wasn't there yesterday...
Message:
Because I checked...

Maybe the EV monitors read my complaints that HE has't said a word.

Took him long enough to say anything...

What an asshole

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 13:30:12 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Religious Cults have all the answers... (OT?)
Message:
Robertson and Falwell: America has lost God's protection

CHRIS KAHN, Associated Press Writer Friday, September 14, 2001

The Rev. Jerry Falwell and religious broadcaster Pat Robertson said the United States was vulnerable to this week's terrorist attacks because the nation has insulted God and lost divine protection.

'God Almighty is lifting his protection from us,' Robertson said in a four-page statement issued Thursday by his Christian Broadcasting Network.

'We have imagined ourselves invulnerable and have been consumed by the pursuit of ... health, wealth, material pleasures and sexuality.'

Falwell, a Baptist minister and chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., said Thursday on Robertson's religious TV program 'The 700 Club' that he blames the attacks on pagans, abortionists, feminists, homosexuals, the American Civil Liberties Union and the People for the American Way.

'All of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen,'' Falwell said.

He added later, 'God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.'

'Jerry, that's my feeling,' Robertson responded. 'I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.'

Elizabeth Birch, executive director of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights organization, said Friday the comments of Falwell and Robertson 'were stunning. They were beyond contempt. They were irresponsible at best, and a deliberate attempt to manipulate the nation's anger at worst.'

Robertson, who founded the Christian Coalition and unsuccessfully ran for the 1988 Republican presidential nomination, said in his statement Thursday that Americans have insulted God by allowing abortion and 'rampant Internet pornography.' He also chided the U.S. Supreme Court for, among other things, limiting prayer in public schools.

'We have a court that has essentially stuck its finger in God's eye,' Robertson wrote. 'We have insulted God at the highest level of our government. Then, we say, 'Why does this happen?''

Robertson was among conservative religious figures who backed President Bush in last year's election. A White House official called the remarks 'inappropriate' and added, 'the president does not share those views.'

Falwell said Friday that he didn't mean to blame any one group.

'But I'd say this is a wake up call from God,' Falwell told The Associated Press. 'I feel our spiritual defenses are down. If we don't repent, then more events might happen in the future.'

Bill Leonard, dean of the Wake Forest University Divinity School in Winston-Salem, N.C., compared Falwell's and Robertson's comments with militant Islamic rhetoric that has been condemned worldwide.

'It trivializes theology. It trivializes the dead,' Leonard said.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 18:44:47 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Petition to Rebuke Falwell/Robertson
Message:
Here's a link to sign a petition to have Messrs. Falwell and Robertson officially rebuked for their horrific remarks. They are no better than Osama Bin Laden, IMO, to express such ill will and to foment such hatred.
[ Petition to Rebuke Fallwell/Robertson ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:09:36 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CNN
Subject: I signed this, and...
Message:
Even if you don't want to sign it, read some of the comments many of the signers made. Quite a few of the people who signed it are from Virginia - some from Lynchburg - and it's quite heartening to read what they have to say.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 18:32:48 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Religious Cults have all the answers... (OT?)
Message:
Bill Leonard, dean of the Wake Forest University Divinity School in Winston-Salem, N.C., compared Falwell's and Robertson's comments with militant Islamic rhetoric that has been condemned worldwide.

That about says it. If Falwell and Robertson had their way, America would be run in much the same way the Taliban runs Afghanistan. A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist. Christian or Muslim, it doesn't matter. Falwell and Robertson better watch it, though. They've come dangerously close to applauding this terrorist action by not condemning it. Instead, incredibly, they've attempted to justify it.

Assholes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:06:38 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: I'm embarassed to be from Virginia
Message:
Dear Chuck -
They ran that quote from Jerry Falwell across the bottom of the CNN screen the other night and I about had a fit. I am kind of glad he said it in public because I think it shows what kind of person he is, and I think he will lose some support for saying this - ditto for Pat Robertson, who I also abhor.

We live about 1 1/2 hours away from Lynchburg, VA, Falwell's headquarters, and I was absolutely disgusted to hear that Mr. Falwell was actually participating in a prayer service for people in this part of Virginia on Friday. He makes me sick - and he makes a lot of other people where I live sick too (I hope this helps a tiny bit).

Also, Billy Graham's son gave a Christian diatribe in to Judy Woodruff of CNN's microphone just before the prayer service in the National Cathedral yesterday. My mother told me she was screaming at the TV saying 'Judy, shut him up!' She watched the whole thing - I had to change the channel to avoid it. Dr. Billy Graham, his father, was able to (mostly) restrain himself WITHIN the cathedral, which I respected.

In solidarity -
Katie the feminist

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:41:09 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: I'm embarassed to be from Virginia
Message:
Virginia is such a beautiful state, I hope these guys don't stir up a civil war. Shit! That's so sad that they have to have a group to blame or retaliate. It is quite apparent from the list of the terroists name that the group is Muslim. I don't even like to say that, because it is a fanatical group of Muslims and should be reflective of ordinary people who happen to be of the Muslim faith.

I know it's hard to have a face-less foe but to single out all these groups as 'I told you so' is so cowardly.

Take care, hope things don't get worse.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:27:08 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: I'm embarassed to be from Virginia
Message:
Hi Katie,

How are you? This makes me so sick. These men are so off the wall it makes me want to scream.

They are so smug and arrogant. Just looking at them, Falwell, Robertson and the Graham father and son team think they have it all figured out.

I'm sick of it.

Nice to see you here, btw, it's been a while.

Love,
Cynthia, (gotta go, I'm missing a very nice day!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 13:41:40 (EDT)
From: KatieH
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Deb and Cynthia
Message:
Hi Deb and Cynthia -
I'm actually GLAD Falwell and Robertson said those things because it reveals their true colors - and it has gotten a lot of publicity. Robertson was a major supporter of Bush in the last election, as was much of the Christian right - and I am very happy that the White House has publically dissociated themselves from these views. (Cheney's daughter is gay, for god's sakes! And that's just one example!)

Cynthia, thank you for posting the link to the NOW statement - it was great, and I'm going to forward it to family and friends.

BTW, I'm just here for a visit, will be gone soon - but nice to see both of you too.

Love to both of you -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 14:52:20 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: They are disgusting...(OT?)
Message:
I think everyone should read When God Was a Woman by Merlin Stone.

It gives an incredible perspective about the evolution of religions.

As for Robertson/Falwell, they are to me a couple of Christian thugs who live in wealth off the backs of their followers (sound familiar)?

I am not a believer in any god in a bod, nor god as a specific gender, but I've been very offended this week, hearing stuff like god, our father, etc., etc... Too close to home for me, being an ex, having worshipped 'dad.'

Hope you're well Charles,
Love,
Cynthia
[ When God Was a Woman ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index