Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 13, 2001 To: Sep 17, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Scott T. -:- I think I'm outta here folks. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:39:34 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Please don't leave, Scott -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:37:27 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- :: well-said :: -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:33:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: :: well-said :: -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:44:59 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- agree with Scott more than anything else -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:04:48 (EDT)
__ bill -:- You are so good at analysis, but -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:19:53 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- what we have in common -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 14:04:07 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: group think :: -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:07:31 (EDT)
__ __ Salam -:- Re: :: group think :: -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:43:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- ::[smile]:: [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:00:20 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- But this is just the beginning, Scott -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:21:09 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Aren't you forgetting global warming? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 05:18:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: Earth, over easy :: -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:54:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- WWF report couple of months back -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:02:07 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: But this is just the beginning, Scott -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:15:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: nice post :: [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:41:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: But this is just the beginning, Scott -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 01:26:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Just the beginning, -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 02:18:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Why can anything really change? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 05:24:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Why can anything really change? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 08:34:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- I hope you're right Scott -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:14:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sorry, about your friend, Hamzen... -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:32:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Just a minute! -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 21:06:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: right :: [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:43:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- More moments. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 23:53:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Just a... what? -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 22:59:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Just a... what? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:15:05 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Gee, Scott. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:18:33 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Gee, Scott. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:41:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Gee, Scott. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 20:20:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- What's up, Doc? -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:27:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Dr. Gee, Scott -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:47:55 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- Before you go ... -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:05:43 (EDT)
__ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Before you go ... -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:12:24 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Why?. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:58:24 (EDT)
__ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Why?. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:07:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- OK, am leaving too. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:27:11 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- hey Scott -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:06:10 (EDT)
__ Voyeur -:- Re: I think I'm outta here folks. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:44:15 (EDT)

Catweasel -:- Vale Charlie Mance -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:40:54 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- For at least once, your are right on -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:55:24 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Ditto that NT -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:35:44 (EDT)

PatD -:- Stratford-upon-Avon at 11am -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:29:05 (EDT)
__ Ulf -:- Re: Stratford-upon-Avon at 11am -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:59:25 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Liverpool at 11am -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 15:07:08 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- World citizens -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:57:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: World citizens -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:53:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: World citizens -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 14:52:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: World citizens -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:04:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: World citizens -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:54:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Selene -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 15:09:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- conflicting emotions -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:36:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Love to you too, Selene [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:53:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: World citizens -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 15:23:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- hugs Loaf and an apology -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:59:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: World citizens -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:12:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: World citizens -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:21:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- our universities too -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:04:57 (EDT)

Salam -:- It's not a Theological Issue -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:10:07 (EDT)
__ **** -:- Salam alaikum -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 07:12:12 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- FUCK OFF BASTARD!!!! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 18:36:39 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Not theology, cultism. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:18:54 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Not theology, cultism. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:47:16 (EDT)
__ a cold-hearted view -:- this is no more than a.. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:28:53 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: this is no more than a.. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:23:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Oh Sorry I forgot -:- man is the Crown of Creation.. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:39:20 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: this is no more than a.. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:39:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Settle down and -:- don't be so emotional -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:04:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- OK -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:48:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- You have gay water melons ? [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 15:26:14 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Martyrs. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:09:56 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Martyrs. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:24:24 (EDT)
__ All Wars are Theological -:- Re: It's not a Theological Issue -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:11:46 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- Re: It's not a Theological Issue -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:05:19 (EDT)
__ __ Salam -:- They were called Human-Waves -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:06:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Kurds and the Basij -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:24:37 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- More please - interesting and different -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:47:15 (EDT)

bill -:- My rant against jews -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 00:14:02 (EDT)
__ Mandy -:- Be ashamed! -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:25:23 (EDT)
__ __ bill-you need to gorw your -:- ability to understand things you read. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:52:18 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- go meditate, premie -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:21:10 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Your rant against the Jews. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:03:49 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- As you say, just because the wanted -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:23:44 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- :: clash :: OT^2 -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:11:38 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Jordan -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:31:48 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Rant indeed. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:04:36 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Another point -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:57:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Your sources are wrong ol buddy -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:26:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Your sources are wrong ol buddy -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 02:15:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill-thank you Jethro, -:- that 47 action did cause a lot of trouble. [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:17:09 (EDT)
__ __ ironman -:- Scotts lesson in the truth. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:18:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill-good line, -:- Commit to the truth. [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:28:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- My lesson in truth. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:43:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ironman -:- Scott continues to learn (sort of..) -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 08:47:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Egad Scott, that is so flawed [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:30:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Paul -:- a few small points -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 14:39:22 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- Re: My rant against jews -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:02:03 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- why are you speaking for all americans -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:11:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- oh excuse me you were speaking of -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:14:39 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Re: My rant against jews -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:45:28 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- 'The bog standard American'. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:13:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: 'The bog standard American'. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:55:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: 'The bog standard American'. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:03:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Marshall Plan etc. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:23:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: The Marshall Plan etc. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:04:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Bombing Canada. -:- Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 05:14:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- I am sorry -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:47:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Loaf. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:02:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Hey Loaf. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:02:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Hey Loaf. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:42:23 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: My rant against jews -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:45:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Spot on! (NT) -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:07:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Retaliation. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:41:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Retaliation. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:14:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Retaliation. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:13:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Retaliation. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:09:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Retaliation. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:29:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Retaliation. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:44:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- ::only you can prevent forest fires :: -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:07:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- nato -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:26:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- nice post -- thanks [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:15:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -- here's something from the -:- British ambassador to Nato, 1986-92 -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:58:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Fires and tall buildings. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:26:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Fires and tall buildings. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:34:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::sponsored by Billy Graham Crusade :: -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:15:35 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: My rant against jews -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 00:23:02 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Israelis and Jews. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:18:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Israelis and Jews. -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:24:45 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: My rant against jews -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:08:23 (EDT)
__ __ bill-correct Rick,. -:- My rant against Isreali behaviour [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 00:24:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- If US had not boycotted -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:28:51 (EDT)

War is coming -:- and the real God will stand up -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 23:55:00 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Well Said -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 01:04:35 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- A new type of war -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:01:40 (EDT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Some great points Joe! -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:52:57 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Re: Well Said -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:08:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- That's very unfair -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:10:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ The time of Nationalism -:- is obsolete -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:02:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Uninformed anti-Americanism -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:14:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Uninformed anti-Americanism -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:26:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Uninformed anti-Americanism -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:41:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The British Dilemma -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:09:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Uninformed anti-Americanism -:- Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:05:28 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:39:34 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I think I'm outta here folks.
Message:
I felt I had something in common with you guys, but I'm not sure we even see the same world. I'm pretty sure I saw what I saw on the morning of Sept. 11, and I just haven't got time to rehash every anti-American fashion and fad that's around. I think there are serious things to do, and doing them right (meaning fighting a necessary and righteous war) could make the difference between our survival as a species, and not. I just don't have time or inclination to share my thoughts and feelings with what seems to have become a faction of adolescent leftist ideology. Maybe you're just in some sort of denial mode about what we've witnessed, or perhaps you just like to tell yourselves stories... but I don't intend to enable it any longer. I'm in the wrong place. Talk amoungst yourselves.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:37:27 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Please don't leave, Scott
Message:
I really do understand your point of view. We need diplomats AND warriors, good cops and bad cops, someone to walk softly and somone to carry the big stick. I'm not blind to the dangers and I know exactly what you are talking about.

I lived through the same arguments in South Africa. The Africans were no more ready to assume power than the Palestinians and everything the the Afrikaners feared would happen has happened BUT good has also come from ending apartheid.

I'm not nearly as much of a leftist as you may think. Actually I think I'm very much middle-class, middle of the road businessman who just wants to see a world that's safe for people to work and improve their lives and raise their kids.

I prefer to hear views opposing mine as I know I am not right. Truth comes from a dialectic between opposing POVs. I get uncomfortable when everyone agrees.

I actually introduced the topic of Zionism because I thought I would be shot down in flames by everyone else and was quite surprised to see that the opposite happened. Maybe now I will begin to espouse your POV - well tempered with my make love not war hippie peacenik stuff.

When I first heard the news I shouted out to Chuck and Andy, ''Nuke the bastards!'' Oh yes, I was angry but I am also very wary of jingoism. I don't think that you are at all jingoistic and are rather advocating a practical approach. I really appreciate your POV.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:33:00 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To:

Subject: :: well-said ::
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:44:59 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: :: well-said ::
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:04:48 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: agree with Scott more than anything else
Message:
I have been in lurk mode but I feel a moral obligation to say that a lot of what I have read here caused me to feel much like Scott. I can say as one who often has differing political beliefs to the vast majority here that I sometimes have felt the posts have run on the ugly side. I can't even put this into words. I just mostly want to let Scott know he isn't alone.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:19:53 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You are so good at analysis, but
Message:
your post on isreal is greviously flawed.
It is the first time I would consider saying that to you by the way.
On any subject.
You are brilliant.
I would hate to stop reading you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 14:04:07 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: what we have in common
Message:
We were in a cult. Some a couple years, some a couple decades.
We got out and for some like me, EPO was part of getting out and helped me a lot. The various forums also helped.
Others found this site long after they had left.
That's about it, for me, for what we have in common. Others will disagree.

We have strong and often opposing political views. I like your posts but can understand why you'd want to get out of this discussion.
I too have perceived some anti American sentiment here and it's harsh, the timing at least. I also got mad at a friend over the phone for spouting the standard American patriotic party line w/o giving it much thought. I don't think you did this. Take care, Scott.

ps I've also enjoyed meeting most of the exes I've met in person, didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:07:31 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: :: group think ::
Message:

I felt I had something in common with you guys, but I'm not sure we even see the same world. I'm pretty sure I saw what I saw on the morning of Sept. 11, and I just haven't got time to rehash every anti-American fashion and fad that's around. I think there are serious things to do, and doing them right (meaning fighting a necessary and righteous war) could make the difference between our survival as a species, and not. I just don't have time or inclination to share my thoughts and feelings with what seems to have become a faction of adolescent leftist ideology. Maybe you're just in some sort of denial mode about what we've witnessed, or perhaps you just like to tell yourselves stories... but I don't intend to enable it any longer. I'm in the wrong place. Talk amoungst yourselves.



---

We are discussing the intentional murder of tens of
thousands, or hundreds of thousands of human beings,
in defiance of the simple prohibition:

Thou shalt not kill.

Not every American is required to think like Sipowicz, to
be a valid citizen or a patriotic one.

To struggle with the philosophy of mass murder is worth a
little inconvenience to everyone, I think. I also think
it's on topic; this group especially brings something unique
to the table.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:43:49 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: :: group think ::
Message:
Oh I love the way you write and format your text. You are still number one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:00:20 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: ::[smile]:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:21:09 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: But this is just the beginning, Scott
Message:
The terrorism won't stop. We've learned that from Northern Ireland. If you give in to terrorism then it's a weapon that's just used more often. I think terrorism will be the new war of the 21st century. It's impossible to eradicate.

There will be valiant attempts to destroy it but now that the cat's out of the bag, it will not go away. I think now that the world's major powers understand that war between nations is pointless and uneconomical, the war of terrorism will take its place for a long time to come - maybe centuries. Instead of countries fighting, there will be private ideologies which will spur on the fanatics to wage clandestine war against their political or religious opponents.

It will be a long drawn out war with no end. No end in sight in our lifetime...

I value your opinions, Scott.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 05:18:23 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Aren't you forgetting global warming?
Message:
the war of terrorism will take its place for a long time to come - maybe centuries

All the latest suggests the planet will be unliveable by 2050 for humans

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:54:30 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: :: Earth, over easy ::
Message:
Hamzen said:

All the latest suggests the planet will be unliveable by 2050 for humans

---

You've said that before -- it is one of the most dire
predictions I've heard. I was curious as to its source.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:02:07 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: WWF report couple of months back
Message:
And when you know what's being predicted across the board, not difficult to see.

Latest effects of diversion of the gulf stream shows it will be heading into the bay of biscay even quicker than last years predictions, and might even stop completely.
After all 40% of the north polar ice cap has already melted, and the melt rate is increasing, blah de blah de......

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:15:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: But this is just the beginning, Scott
Message:
David:

I'm afraid I don't agree with you about much of that, at least in spirit. There has been a sea change in what we used to call terrorism that requires that we *do* eradicate it. The first stage of that is strategic, and involves what must be the equivalent of a World War. I'd call this the stage to 'put it into submission' or perhaps 'remission.' We have both the capacity and the will to accomplish that stage. The first counter-terrorist war was declared formally by the US Congress under the Presidency of Thomas Jefferson in 1801, against the Barbary Pirates. (So a Declaration of War need not be against a sovereign nation, at least according to US tradition and the intent of the founders.) The war lasted more than 5 years. The issue has been with us for a long time.

Subsequent to the first stage, or perhaps concurrently in the long run, must be a compaign to codify 'justice' in the way humans and organizations, including obsolete (ethinically and religiously based) and nearly obsolete (ideologically based) national entities, treat one another. I'd call this the 'interpretive stage,' and to my way of thinking it's the stage that you guys are prematurely stuck in. We have a ways to go before that can be more that a tactical part of stage one, but perhaps your participation could take the form of that application. Clearly resolving some of the grievances of parties like the Palestinians could go a long way toward drying up the recruitment potential of UBL and the like. But you have to see the Palestinians for what they are, and I don't think many of you do. They don't even have the institutional capacity to say 'yes' at the moment. You will have to shore them up institutionally to get them where they need to be, or any efforts spent to mollify them will be wasted.

The consequences of putting stage 2 before stage 1 are enormous. If we do that there won't be any stage 2, ever. There may not even be a world. Force is ugly, but it is not the opposite of beauty or justice. We will have an end in sight in our lifetime, if not to either stage at least to a definable substage that represents some form of inspiration. And essentially what I'm saying is that you can get nowhere at all without Sipowictz (however he spells it). You guys can't sustain the effort required for the first stage. He can. Nothing against you, but you think too much and your thoughts are too closely connected to your compassion. I'm trying to understand Sipowictz, because I see how important he is. I think I do understand him. We aren't very far apart at the moment.

The reference to Gordon Sinclair's speech has to be taken in context, which I did not provide. It was 1972 during the economic 'slowdown,' and he is long dead now. There is a jingoistic tone that seems incongruous to our ears, to be sure. Here's a more contemporary reference, from yesterday's National Post, by Christie Blatchford. I understand there is an even stronger version in today's publication.

http://nationalpost.com/features/siege/091101column2.html

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:41:36 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: :: nice post :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 01:26:53 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: But this is just the beginning, Scott
Message:
sound like a good idea. Unfortunatly it won't work. Nations have their own view of who to do things and what to do. we can talk about it until or jaws fall off, but once you come to the implentation it won't work.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 02:18:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Just the beginning,
Message:
Salam:

What about it won't work in due time? The time frame I have for this evolution is about 200 years. It might be as little as 50, depending on circumstances, luck, and a few other imponderables. There are waypoints that are significant along the way though. Mortimer Adler is one of the first persons to think about this in a book he wrote in 1941, before nuclear weapons or mass terrorism. It was called simply 'How to Think About War and Peace.' It's now out of print, ut I have a copy tucked away with the pages yellowing and brittle. It'll work. The only question is, will we?

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 05:24:18 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why can anything really change?
Message:
When we have a planet that will be nigh on unliveable for humans by 2050 and can't even bother to acknowledge it, why should this be any different?

Wish that wasn't so, but humans don't seem to be very good at implementing solutions to acknowledged problems on anything other than a patchwork basis.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 08:34:20 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Why can anything really change?
Message:
I reject your premise, completely and utterly. The radical Islamic cult of Bin Laden has no problem transcending the patchwork paradigm, if that's really what it is. The limitations that humans (the good ones and the bad ones) possess are not of the nature that you suggest, and only seem so because the 'fixers' in our society fail to take the trouble to see humans as they actually are. I recommend that you read the modern American Pragmatist philosopher, Frederick Turner, in this regard.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:14:15 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I hope you're right Scott
Message:
But I don't see ANYTHING being done to confront a problem that in less than 20 years will make this whole present disgusting incident anything but tiny in comparison.

Re Bin Laden, if this isn't too early a time to get abstract when the rawness is so overpowering, Bin Laden and all the terrorists of whatever persuasion are part of that patchwork approach, it would be easy for them to cause massive disruption to the financial systems, but they still think very l9nearly most of the time, thank god.
But this incident is worrying from that angle.

And again apologies if this a bad time for the abstractions.

Think almost any discussion is in poor taste at the moment whatever angle we're coming from, think the leaders will do whatever they are going to do at the mo, especially qwith the high public support levels for action.

And having just been through three weeks of nearly losing one of my best mates to a pointless accident, and I was there when it happened (she's just coming out of a coma), I have a lot of empathy for the grieving and other feelings in your community at the moment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:32:18 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sorry, about your friend, Hamzen...
Message:
My best wishes to her and to you.

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 21:06:23 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just a minute!
Message:
Scott wrote:

''and to my way of thinking it's the stage that you guys are prematurely stuck in.''

There's nothing like tarring everyone with the same brush, is there. What is it that ''we guys'' are supposed to be thinking? I haven't read all the posts and if I'm a ''you guys'' I'd like to know what I've been tarred with.

I don't underestimate the danger that we all face from terrorism. I mean, a chemical bomb on London would wipe out most of the city and they're not that difficult to make. A bit of anthrax released in the right place would kill millions here.

I have said that there must be a war. It's absolutely necessary although it must be a war against terrorists and not countries. At least Powell did reiterate that view today that we can't see the enemy because they are spread out over many countries, including America.

What won't work will be a war between America and the terrorists. These are global terrorists and it will take many countries to eliminate the immediate danger. And I don't see that danger going away, even after a long campaign because nuclear and chemical bombs cannot be uninvented and planes can always be flown into buildings. Plus we'll never have the whole world agreeing with the major nation's foreign policy, even if America finally got it right.

So it's here to stay, in my view.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:43:12 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: :: right :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 23:53:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: More moments.
Message:
David:

After thinking about this a bit more, I can see the point that the impulse to conduct small and medium scale terrorism will be with us for a long time, if not forever. But the odds of large scare terrorism are significantly reduced, if not eliminated, by the elimination of the large scale resources that support them, together with an institutionalized awareness of the potential.

It's human nature for awareness to wane, and a sense of urgency to diminish. What I'm really concerned about is the establishment of institutions that embody an effective response to the terrorist threat. Some of these are indeed socio-economic in the long run, and this is an awareness that the western world lacks. The very insightful writings of Herman Daly come to mind, and his discussions of 'steady state' world economy. He became something of a lightning rod within the World Bank and left, but perhaps we should bring him into an institute that studies this problem (if he's still alive), assign him students, etc. I certainly see that as a component of the solution.

But the first task (with which it seems you agree) is to make resources on the level of nation states unavialable to terrorist organizations. This means, in a word, Iraq. Possibly also Syria, Libya, and a few other so-called 'rogue' states. Ironically Afghanistan and the Taliban are small potatoes by comparison. The chief problem with Afghanistan is that it is a harbor, where the resources of Iraq flow. So if I were prudent, and I were George W. Bush, I would ignore Afghanistan for the moment and pick a fight with Saddam. I'd make that my first priority. But I'd act as though I were going to invade Afghanistan up to the last minute. Anyway, just a thought. Noboby tells me anything, so I'm just speculating. I don't know how you'd clear such an invasion with the rest of the Arab world, the Saudis and so forth, for example. It appears they're willing to let us go into Kabul, but Baghdad?

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 22:59:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Just a... what?
Message:
So it's here to stay, in my view.

And I think it can't be. Such fatalism has no meaning. Who do I mean by 'you guys?' I mean those of us who conclude that a more fair distribution of the world's resources is the proximate solution to the problem of terrorism, and a host of other problems. To a very large degree the solution is force. Perhaps the vision that 'you guys' have, could find it's place in rooting out the vestages of the impulse to impose terror, as a means of social control or manipulation. But what I fear is that such a vision on its own *could become* the root cause, rather than it's cure; at least for this moment in history.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:15:05 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Just a... what?
Message:
I don't know, Scott. For nations who have been battling terrorism for decades longer than we have, it must appear brazen of the US to think that we're the ones who are going to solve the problem once and for all. If you ask me, the best thing we can do is just add our resources to the fight that other nations have been waging already. I don't see how we can succeed without international assistance. Instead of Bush sounding off as if terrorism is our problem only, he'd be wiser to acknowledge that terrorism is a worldwide plague. I know he has done that to some extent, but it's overshadowed by his jigoistic attitude that we're going to lead the way. I disagree with that. We're just one nation in many that are plagued by terrorism, and if the truth be told, we're the new kids on the block. I think a little humility about our obvious failure to contain terrorism (witness WTC) is in order, and instead of false bravado in front of the rest of the world, maybe it might be wiser if we went to the international community with cap in hand and asked for a little help. So far, all I've seen is demands for it. That can only rub people the wrong way, and is not the right foot to start off on.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:18:33 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gee, Scott.
Message:
If you only want to listen and speak to people who agree with you, open discussions, where all opinions are allowed, are not for you. And just because you disagree with certain actions of the US government, that doesn't make you 'anti-american.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:41:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Gee, Scott.
Message:
Joe:

It's the decoction, the relative proportions, that get me. Too much know-nothing flying boy kind of crap. Being able to bitch isn't enlightenment. A little of it goes too far. There ought to be a law that you're not allowed to bitch until you've seen a vision of the void. But I'm a real heavy guy right now. I know too much about our power structure that's not really of a documentable letter by letter sort, especially for an intellectual. I see Dick Armey and I can tell he's been weeping. I wonder why you can't see it. That's all.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 20:20:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Gee, Scott.
Message:
There are a lot of people weeping, Scott. I don't get your comment about Dick Armey, nor the 'vision of the void,' but I can understand you are upset, as lots of us are.

I talked again to my friend Julie's mom and she said Aon may have lost half of its 1100 employees in WTC 2. They were having a big teleconference call today with the head of the company.

It's a horrible thing and we have an obligation, those of us not directly affected, to give compassion. But I also think we have an obligation to talk about how to prevent this from happening in the future, and I think that requires a full understanding of why we are so hated, whether we think that's justified or not. In that sense, I think the viewpoints of those outside the USA are very important, although maybe not always pleasant to hear.

But I'm glad to hear you haven't departed in despair.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:27:27 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What's up, Doc?
Message:
Scott, I can't make fuck all out of what you are saying. You've been reading to many philosphers.

Of course Joe is correct that we need to understand WHY the US is so hated. It doesn't take a PhD to figure out we've fucked over most of the world in our greed and lust for domination. The chickens are coming home to roost. That's the sad truth.

'You guys' who want to beat the fucking war drums, you fucking jugheads in Washington are the same mind set which created the problem in the first place.

You've always been a followere haven't you Scott? I could care fuck all if you leave this forum. In fact, I should block your redneck warmongering ass outta here for good...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:47:55 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dr. Gee, Scott
Message:
And then Joe said:

I think that requires a full understanding of why we are so hated, whether we think that's justified or not. In that sense, I think the viewpoints of those outside the USA are very important, although maybe not always pleasant to hear.

---

The U.S. is hated (as evinced by recent terrorists attacks
against it) and that has to be examined honestly, and not
glossed over.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:05:43 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Before you go ...
Message:
... you owe it to yourself to read Pat Conlon's post. I've linked it here. I'm sure there are others, besides Voyeur's (you should read that one too, it's near Pat's).

As Americans are being painted with a broad brush by some, don't paint ALL posters here with a broad brush. But I agree, if it upsets you, by all means, don't read it!

I got an e-mail yesterday from a friend of mine that I didn't realize was still into Maharaji and almost totally buys into the revisionism and it really got me upset. I thought he was more intelligent than that. I said, dang, Francesca, try not to lay yourself open to even having to READ that sort of shite.

Bests to you,
Francesca
[ Pat's post ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:12:24 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Before you go ...
Message:
Francesca, as you can see from my entry in this thread, I had just about had it too. I can't forget what I saw out of my own windows and I am fed up with people who are rationalizing from a distance.
If anyone wants to set up a forum where politics, religion and nationality don't count which deals with the GMJ aftermath, I will contribute, but things have changed after Tuesdays and the real seekers of peace and love and not murder will be found elsewhere.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:58:24 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Why?.
Message:
you planing to save the world. this is a public forum and anyone can say what they like as long as they pay some curtisy to others, or do you think you have a higher purpose?

Adolescent leftest ideology? ofcourse, as long as it doesn't rub against your skin.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:07:07 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: Why?.
Message:
AS I am on my way out I can say things that I have refrained from.
You, Salam, are a prime culprit that has caused the disintegration of this forum with trivia, irrelevant accusations, and prejudice as well as incoherent contributions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:27:11 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: OK, am leaving too.
Message:
so there you go. Now the forum can live happly ever after.

bye.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:06:10 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: hey Scott
Message:
i just read your e-mail. I forgive you,

take care

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:44:15 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: I think I'm outta here folks.
Message:
I agree and have written a similar message below.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:40:54 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Vale Charlie Mance
Message:
Charlie Mance aged 100 years , one of the last 20 WW1 veterans here in Australia died today. Charlie enlisted as a 16 year old and was sent to fight on the Western Front.'His horror at being gassed and wounded yet still fighting as a teenager never left him'.
Last year he said of war 'It's useless. Why make things to destroy humanity? We should utilise the wonders of the earth.'
He recalled the horror of his gassing on July 5th 1918
'Your eyes went,your voice went and your skin blistered up.I've suffered bronchitis ever sinceand my vision is terrible'
Charlie spoke out for over 80 years.War can only happen if there are those who pursue it. There is no logic to madness. We are deeply saddened and feel great compassion for all those in New York ,in Afghanistan, in the Balkans,in Israel and in Palestine who are suffering from the scourge of war.There are no winners ,no rights and only uncountable wrongs. Humanity is balanced on a knifes edge.I hope we,all of us, can offer a vision for the future .
'We should utilise the wonders of the earth'
Charlies eyesight might have been pretty poor but his vision was A1
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:55:24 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: For at least once, your are right on
Message:
Thanks for sharing that.

Bests,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:35:44 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Ditto that NT
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:29:05 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Stratford-upon-Avon at 11am
Message:
Everyone in the streets & I mean absolutely EVERYONE stood in silence. People came out of shops & offices, the traffic stopped, drivers switched off their engines.

There was total silence for 3 minutes.

R.I.P

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:59:25 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Stratford-upon-Avon at 11am
Message:
hi Pat
3 hours ago i went down to a shoop to by some food , as i went inside
the clock was precis 12 o`clock ,, everybody stood in silence ,
so this is also happening here in Denmark.
best wishes Ulf
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 15:07:08 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Liverpool at 11am
Message:
I watched the 3 minutes silence on TV (that sounds odd)..and cried for the first time since watching open mouthed on the 11th. It did me some good. This afternoon i had tea with some friends, one of whom is from Iraq, we are all shocked and stunned and bewildered and scared.

God bless.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:57:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: World citizens
Message:
Thank you, PatD and Ulf -
Although I am still very shocked and sorrowful about what has happened, reports like yours make me feel more hopeful. Not sure I can add anything coherent, but I will try.

I went into work the day after the attack and felt sick when I saw people wearing red, white, and blue ribbons. I know it makes people feel better, but to me, it's a separatist symbol. I also work with several people from the Middle East and I can tell they are scared they will be ostracized. This all makes me sad, because the tragedy to me, is far more about people than nations.

If you watch people looking for survivors of the WTC blast on TV, so many of them come from other countries, including many from the Middle East. Maybe we need to redefine our concept of 'American'.

Another thing - perhaps some people see the Pentagon as a symbol of war, and feels that the people who work there are all militaristic warmongers. I don't feel that way because my father worked there for many years, and I have been there many times and know that the people who work there are just that - human beings. And I have been dealing with students at work whose parents and relatiaves work in the Pentagon and who were frantic on Tuesday trying to contact them. All of the relatives of people I know personally are all right, but some of their friend's parents are not accounted for - either in the Pentagon blast, or in the WTC collapse. And I can tell you that the expressions of sympathy and solidarity from all over the world mean a lot to the kids I've talked to who were afraid that their parents had been killed.

We won't display the American flag at our house - to me it sends the wrong message. I wish there was a world flag to display.

Love to both of you,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:53:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
At the University of Victoria, the Muslim society set up a table with a basket of ribbons (White w/ends dipped in blue on one side/red on the other). They've declared it International Mourning Day.

So I didn't get the same cultural message as you did. But I do understand from the American citizen point-of-view of how you feel.

Point of view is everything.

I also wanted to tell you that I haven't read much anti-American sentiments here on the forum. Did I miss something? Could you give a concrete example of a comment or two.

Selene agreed with you, so I just wanted to be on the same page.

Thanks,

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 14:52:47 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
Hi Deb -
I can't give concrete examples because don't want to go through the posts again (or start a fight). What I objected to the characterization of 'Americans' as a homogeneous group. Because I'm a liberal Democrat, I have always been somewhat ashamed of being American - also of being white. Because I have this inherent guilt already, I feel worse when people make generalizations about 'Americans' that don't fit me or even most of the people I know - including the politically conservative Americans that I know (some in my own family).

I grew up in a second-generation government service family and lived overseas for several years. Both my father, who worked for the Navy Department, and my grandfather, who was in the Foreign Service, believed that their lives were best spent in public service to the U.S. So I am very torn in this situation. I have emotional ties to the State Department and the US Military at the same time that I deplore many of their actions. And when you grow up in DC, it is far harder to make abstract judgements about the 'US government' because you know, or related to many people who are part of that government.

Hope this explains a little bit - I KNOW I'm still not all that coherent, but this has been a really hard week for me.

Just found out my brother saw the plane hit the Pentagon - he was in DC at the time working on top of a building. It's been an emotional blow for all of my family - I hope people here can understand that and not be judgemental.

Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 20:04:47 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
Yeah Hi Katie,

I've buttoned my lip on any general accusations about Americans in lieu of the incident. Because I lived in the US for 20 years I realize that Americans generally are individualistic and have good hearts.

The media, unfortunately, provides the images for the rest of the world. And media, dictates reality. I am concerned how the gov't will handle the situation but this is not a good time to be spewing stereotyped politics.

So so sorry that your brother had to see that plane hit the pentagon. Gee, that must be traumatizing. Hope he'll be well soon. When I see images on television (I usually see them on Internet), it hits home for me. I think how devastating the atrocities must be for those who experience it first hand. Makes me realize that my trauma is so much less than the people in NY or Wa. So very sad.

Don't like the Falwell/Robertson incident. I was talking to a couple of my friends (husband/wife) who are Christian and told them about the controversial statements and they were very supportive of my opinion about it. They don't have an agenda like those guys. Terrible.

Interesting how their accusations echo the sentiments of the perpetrators!

Take care of yourself and let's hope this is the end and not the beginning. Jihads suck.

Lots of love,

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:54:18 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
Hi Deb
Can't speak for Katie (hi Katie BTW) but I was glad she posted her feelings, it helped me. Since you know what I went through Tuesday I'm sure you know I'm very shaken and emotional. There have been posts that have appreared to lump all US citizens together.
Am I over reacting? wouldn't be the first time but read the last 4 days posts and make your own conclusions. I think I need to get out of the discussion, it's not helping me.
Personally I can barely look at Bush on TV, he always looks to me like he is puzzling over where he left his car keys.
I only can hope he has good advisors and that they will make level headed decisions. Most people i know are as frightened as anyone else.
I don't have much respect for blind patriotism and don't want to be accused of being part of it.
It's like saying all Brits are 100% behind Tony Hair. or all Mid East people are terrorists.
Hope things are OK, I answered your email. That's nice, what your University did.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 15:09:28 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene
Message:
Dear Selene -
I am glad that what I posted helped you - I feel that I've been so incoherent. I hope you are OK - just got the bare details of what you went through Tuesday from your posts - and of course you know that my family was all in the DC area at the time so that was quite scary when we were waiting for more attacks. Even worse was the fact that Brian's son lives in Lower Manhattan - and we had no idea where he was for a while. (He was evacuated, but is OK.)

Re the blind patriotism - I'm not doing the American flag thing because we have a large international community here and I don't want to scare anyone. And of course, I lived overseas as a child and thus I am very sympathetic to people from other countries who are living in the US during times where all foreigners are being looked at with hard eyes. But I did realize that I am tired of feeling guilty for being an American, which has helped.

I don't like Bush, but I have started feeling empathy and compassion for him after watching the prayer service at the National Cathedral. I can't imagine being in his position. Re Bush's advisors, my mother (who is also a liberal Democrat) worked with Colin Powell and has nothing but the highest praise for him as a decent human being with a lot of personal integrity. I don't agree with Colin Powell's political stance, but I do agree with my mother regarding his integrity. So that makes me feel better. And I think he knows the costs of war first-hand - as Bush does not.

I don't really want to post here anymore - especially since I am so conflicted about the whole thing, as you can read in my post to Deb above, and also because I don't think I'm making much sense. But it was good to read your post.

Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 16:36:59 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: conflicting emotions
Message:
Hi Katie,
I know, understand. And feel the same way really, even though I'm sort of a mix regarding liberal or not liberal - have to call it not liberal since right wing just doesn't fit.
Thank you for responding. I emailed a few people with details about my Tuesday morning but didn't want to give the trolls any fodder.
Bush is hanging in there. What to say, he seems to have found his car keys for now.
I'm not comfortable posting here for many reasons. But this has brought me back for now.
It was good to read your reply :)
Love, Selene
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 17:53:57 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Love to you too, Selene [nt]
Message:
Hi Selene -
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 15:23:38 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
When I worked for an ad agency in the 1990s i wanted to promote a world flag..

for one reason or another it didnt happen.

Shame though.

I am a bit bruised by all this... I want to hide away and lick my wounds.. and yet I need to talk about it, i have lost the ability to chit chat and am desperate to understand what is really going on.

I was deeply shocked by the awful cynical thought of conspiracy that occurred to me as soon as I heard and saw what had happened..it hit me like a ton of bricks and I dont know what to do with it... perhaps this is some psychological mechanism for turning grief and sorrow into an inverted, fucked up British style anger.. but I need a hug anyway.

I think we all do.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 18:59:18 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: hugs Loaf and an apology
Message:
Sorry I sorta flamed you in the thread below. Well, it wasn't a flame really, not my version (eesh) but anyway, I hope you feel better.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:12:52 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
Ironic really that it was the World Trade Center that was attacked. A large number of the people there were not American. It's estimated that there were at least one thousand British people there who are all now dead. Many Japanese, French, Australian, German, Spanish, Russian, Indian, Chinese... need I say more?

And 25,000 tourists in the shopping mall below the WTC from all over the world. All dead. The fact that all countries have expressed their horror at what happened does clearly imply that the world sees this attack as an attack by madmen upon the security of all the world and not just America.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:21:09 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: World citizens
Message:
Good to see you, Sir David - and thank you for making that point. To me, the World Trade Center has never been a 'symbol of America' in any way (not like the Statue of Liberty, for example, or the buildings in Washington DC.)

The other point is that New York is in many ways an international city - many people from all over the world come to live there. It's very likely that many of the American citizens (or citizens-to-be) who were killed were born in other countries as well.

I don't see this as an 'American' issue - and I don't agree with the political and religious leaders of the US insist on putting it that way.

Love to you - hope you and yours are well.
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:04:57 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: our universities too
Message:
at least the state university I work at, don't know about the private or more elite ones. But here we have people from all over the world attending as students and also teaching and working in staff positions.
Some have received life threats and have been yelled at for no other reason than where they (or their parents) live or originated from. The community has banded together against this type of prejudice and official warnings have been sent.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:10:07 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: It's not a Theological Issue
Message:
Though it looks that way. So far we can assume that no one knows who did it or why, but all fingers are pointing to Ossama Bin Ladin. Others are pointing to the Palestinians and even in Particular to Hamas as being the most aggressive in the region.

Well I don't think its Hamas, as they are run and controlled by Iran and Syria. These two countries have been trying to adopt a moderate police towards the USA and the rest of the west.

As for the rest of the Palestinian, well you would say that the past 11 months of violence would have triggered it. But Yasser Arafat is not that stupid. The violence in the occupied territory is been going own solely to disrupt Israel, it has minor ramification, it can be resolved simply by Arafat ordering his buddies to seize activity. Most likely Iran and Syria will do the same with Hamas.

The act of destruction of civilian target using suicide bombers can only be described as a personal revenge. An extreme hate. What has happened has nothing to do with religious belief, Islam, Jewish or anything else, I think it's a personal vendetta.

Remember that the CIA trained Osama Bin Laden during the time when America supported the Afghani Tribes against the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. Once Russia withdrew America and the CIA had a memory lapse and forgot that they new who the Talabans where. Well it looks like the Talabans have decided to send the Americans a reminder notice. Let's not forget Pakistan involvement. This country was the gateway for the American to pass their support to the Talaban rebels, it's is still the gateway for the Talabans to export their Opium and Heroin to the west, which is almost the only thing that is keeping the Talabans in power. Pakistan is deeply entangled with the Afghans, but this last incident may have the power to make them rethink their involvement.

As for NATO, they have no way in sending troop into Afghanistan and Pakistan, being an American puppet for so long might allow troops to land on their soil in return for aid.

Islam has nothing to do with this, if you think so then you have to excuse me if I say that you are a bit naive.

Osama Bin Ladden is not a Muslim. He is no more than a mad man looking for revenge from a country that abandoned him.

Though he is operating under the guise of Islam, he is causing millions and millions of Arab nationals and Muslims around the world to suffer.

Osama bin Ladden is no more than a cult leader that prays on people's weaknesses and shattered dream with the promise of being martyrs and entering heaven if they die in the act of screaming their heads off 'Allah U Akbar'. Iran did that in the Iraq-Iran war when thousands and thousands of Iranians where slaughtered walking over mind fields and getting blown to pieces because they all had a copy of the Qu'ran around their necks with a picture of Ahyatullah'i Kumaine plastered in it. A lot of Muslims at the time considered this to be blasphemy.

If people in the Arab world jeer and cheer about what happened recently, would you blame them? For they last 50 or so years they have been programmed by their government to think that Israel is the enemy and America is against the Arabs while their leader spend millions and millions going to Casinos in Monaco and run brothels importing western girls in their backyard.

I think before anyone starts jumping up and down and getting into hysteria, I suggest that you turn to your own government and ask them what is the real reason that Osama Bin Laden is attacking your country; not how to build an even bigger army.

America is not the most popular country already, almost everyone in the mid-east think they are the enemy, they are not particularly loved in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Central America, Afghanistan, Iran. They last thing they want to do is flatten another country.

This whole affair is an out fall from the times of the cold war, it has bragged it's sorry ass so far and I really believe it's about time the people involved re-think where they want to be.

Thousands of deaths could have been prevented is the issue was dealt with properly from the beginning. American policy has failed miserably. It's time they take stock, instead they are rallying the world behind them against an enemy that is living amongst them.

for all the american people that I come to know through this forum, through e-mail and phone calls, I really feel for you. Am sorry that this has happened to you,

I love you all [including Charles]

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 07:12:12 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam alaikum
Message:
Whom do you like more: Bush or Bil Laden?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 18:36:39 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: FUCK OFF BASTARD!!!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:18:54 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Not theology, cultism.
Message:
Salam:

'The act of destruction of civilian target using suicide bombers can only be described as a personal revenge. An extreme hate.'

It is most easily explained as an attempt by a grandiose messiahnic figure to expand his sphere of influence through the radical acts of his followers. Personal revenge? Whose? Against whom? Personal revenge just doesn't *ever* take this form. Even a lone suicide bomber doesn't go to these levels of planning and expense. You know all too well what this was about. You know better than most of the pundits and talking heads what it was about... because I daresay you've lived part of it yourself, as have we all around here.

And you're wrong about other things as well. America *is* the most popular country. I conduct and analyze polls, so I know. It's the most popular country on earth, by a pretty big margin. As a general rule countries other than one's own don't score very highly on opinion polls. The US is the exception. You fail to avail yourself of your own hard won lessons in life to understand the events around you. It is time you grew up, my friend.

--Scott

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:47:16 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Not theology, cultism.
Message:
Execuse me Scott, but you are a bit slow here. If it is Bin Ladden, and I don't think he is working alone, then he is taking a personal revenge on anything American.

As for popularity, I don't doubt it at all, but in which way? Every kid in the west bank knows who America is.

Am not anti-American. I don't support America and I don't have to cconfirm to an Amrican way of thinking. If I have something to say I will say it. Running blind and going gaga gaga is your choice not mine.

Just like I don't like the guru and I speak against him, I find it in my right to say what I think and I don't give a fuck if the fbi comes knocking on my door. I think am clear in stating how things are, not how they should be or what I think of them. I am not fabricating facts. All what I said is known to anyone that is prepared to look and you don't have to belive me, look at the links in the post that I made to anth and decide for yourself,

Salam

[p.s I maybe ignorant on some issues, must admit though]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:28:53 (EDT)
From: a cold-hearted view
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: this is no more than a..
Message:
population control device...nature's way of cleansing itself not unlike a forest fire caused by lightning....we can come up with all our reasons and explanations but the beat goes on
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:23:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: a cold-hearted view
Subject: Re: this is no more than a..
Message:
And apparently fools are as numerous as ever.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:39:20 (EDT)
From: Oh Sorry I forgot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: man is the Crown of Creation..
Message:
exempt from the laws of nature. If you accept this Malthusian theory at all like disease as an agent of elimination, than why can't war also be.....because you can't conceive it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:39:44 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a cold-hearted view
Subject: Re: this is no more than a..
Message:
You must have a brick for a brain to say this. Try telling that to the thousands that are rotting under the rubble, their families and the millions of Americans and people around the world.

Your stincking Darwinisim ideas are what Hitler, Stalin, Saddam and bin ladden are advocating, put some acid between your ears.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:04:35 (EDT)
From: Settle down and
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: don't be so emotional
Message:
It was just presented as an alternative possibility

more of a macro than micro view...just as seeing this as a continuation of the midevil(sic)Crusades provides another perspective

Now go chase a Kangaroo....acid between my ears! Don't be looking for someone to be angry at

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:48:55 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Settle down and
Subject: OK
Message:
am waiting for water mellons to come out.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 15:26:14 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: You have gay water melons ? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:09:56 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Martyrs.
Message:
Hi Salam,

Thanks for an informative post. I disagree with you about the martyrs.

Don't you think the hijackers believed they would become martyrs when they died? I can't think of anything else that would have inspired them as much.

Anth the Marmite

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:24:24 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Martyrs.
Message:
Anth,

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding:

when I said this is not a theological issue I meant to say that one should look for the real cause of the problem which started way before anyone outside a samll cirlcle of certain countries in the mid-east could say America was the enenmy. At present it looks that way. however, I think Bush made it very clear in his [show off] telephone conversation to the mayer of NY that they should not go blaming any muslim they aee as being anti-American and a collaborator. This is mass hysteria. Hollywood loves it and they already made few films about of which I dare mention 'Seige'.

As for being Martyres, yes. Those people thought they were being martyres. They really belived that by crashing plane in the world most populated area will rid the world of as many Americans as they can, in return God will give them a block of land in heaven.

It is really very hard to explain this without living it.

The principal danger presented by the phenomenon of 'sub-state' supporters of terror like bin Ladin is the combination of tremendous financial resources coupled with an extremist ideology backed, in his view, by heavenly decree; an ideology which advocates the wholesale slaughter of its perceived enemies, whether soldiers or civilians, children or adults. Bin Ladin's worldview sees the entire world as the battlefield.

I can talk about this forever, but anyone who is interested in knowing where this comes from here are some links including a link on the history of Bin Ladden. Makes a good reading for the weekend:

THE UNITED
STATES AND THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR

The Martyrs, the real victms
why is Afghanistan the way it is
Who is Bin Ladden
BBC report: who is Bin Ladden? CIA origin
Interview with bin Ladden, the reason behind his hate
Why will Pakistan comply with USA demands
Coming to Grips with Jihad
A good collection of articles from FRONTLINE. Very informative

I promised myself not to get involved into this debate. Unfortunatly I can't just sit and watch the circus.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:11:46 (EDT)
From: All Wars are Theological
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: It's not a Theological Issue
Message:
in that the poor people that actually do the fighting are convinced that God/Allah is on there side. The old men that send the young people off to fight and perhaps die invoke the name of God to justify the killing that will be happening.

Don't you think these guys who drove the planes into the buildings were convinced that Allah had a special place waiting for them in the muslim happy hunting ground?

and isn't this current problem facing us earthlings really just a continuation of The Crusades as we in the West have called it? Yes, it is cultural and yes it is political but it must also be theological if 'the winner' can claim their god took care of there asses.

Thanks though, I did enjoy your perspective and agree with a lot of what you said.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:05:19 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: It's not a Theological Issue
Message:
'Iran did that in the Iraq-Iran war when thousands and thousands of Iranians where slaughtered walking over mind fields and getting blown to pieces because they all had a copy of the Qu'ran around their necks with a picture of Ahyatullah'i Kumaine plastered in it'

Can you give me reference on this?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:06:22 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: They were called Human-Waves
Message:
They would run enfront of the tanks to clear they way for them.

Tehran used Pasdaran forces and Basij volunteers in one of the biggest land battles since 1945. Ranging in age from only nine to more than fifty, these eager but relatively untrained soldiers swept over minefields and fortifications to clear safe paths for the tanks.

See this link

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:24:37 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Kurds and the Basij
Message:
In the mid-80s, an attorney I worked for as a secretary did a probono case and got political asylum for a family that was Kurdish AND Catholic. The father had been a high up administrator at the airport in Tehran, but had been set up by some government officials. They held up a plane so long that he had to let it take off without the officials, or compromise safety. Of course they knew this, and then said he was guilty of showing disrespect for the officials. He was in danger of being killed when he fled.

Not all those Basij were volunteers, is what I heard. They took the boys at a very young age and set them out to run ahead of the troops without weapons, as cannon fodder. The sons in the family were just about the right age. I recall a lot of explanation of the Basij in the briefs that I typed for her. (Back then, only secretaries had computers. The dark ages.)

I saw an article about it in National Geographic, years ago, too.

==Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:47:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: More please - interesting and different
Message:
And don't you think the US bankrolling of the outdated theocracy of Israel has anything to do with Arab anti-Americanism?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 00:14:02 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My rant against jews
Message:
Before I retreat once again to my headphones and do a sufi style dance to REM's shiny happy people song,

If I exclude my neighbor, and oppress him, and drive him from his home, and demonize him when he protests, I am the one that caused him to be my enemy.
If I enlist another to help me, my helper now has an enemy. Why does my helper not chastise me?
With money I buy political influence.

All those I know around me, every media source, radio included, all see this World War 3 issue wrong I say.

The complaint at the core of this whole 'terrorist' evolution, is that one day in 1947, people in 400 villages were driven from thier homes and land and not compensated and
also have been mistreated ever since.

Until that is admitted, there is no end to this.
All the usual talk about the aspirations of freedom and equality are not for the palestinians.
Jews lived in all the arab countries for centuries and jews still live in Iran, and the arabs did NOT hate the jews.

If I dont offer justice to one of my sons, and let a bigger kid misreat the younger one, the younger one will come to QUICKLY hate me and his brother. That is true of anyone.
Until the jews admit that thier exclusionary agressor bad behaviour is the root of all this problem, and try to love thier neighbor they are doomed to centuries of conflict.

We of course have foolishly not admitted the truth
and wont any time soon.
Extremists come out of any group.
Aggreived people will have thier fair share of extremists, how can I not look past the reactions to the source of the whole issue and see that the jews are blind to thier religious arrogance.
They caused the whole thing and have dragged us into the consequences of thier abuseing thier neighbors.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:25:23 (EDT)
From: Mandy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Be ashamed!
Message:
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Giving in a 10th of an inch in justifying this enourmous atrocity is abhorrent.

You are despicable, stupidf and just inhuman.

You just debate, debate and debate. You are totally fucked up.

Despicable.

Mandy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:52:18 (EDT)
From: bill-you need to gorw your
Email: None
To: Mandy
Subject: ability to understand things you read.
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:21:10 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mandy
Subject: go meditate, premie
Message:
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Giving in a 10th of an inch in justifying this enourmous atrocity is abhorrent.

You are despicable, stupidf and just inhuman.

You just debate, debate and debate. You are totally fucked up.

Despicable.

Mandy.


---

Yours is a worthless, mindless post, just junk. You are way out of your league here.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:03:49 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Your rant against the Jews.
Message:
Hi bill,

Your description of how Israel was created and Palestine occupied in 1947 is a bit like jumping into the middle of a movie. You can't ignore the events leading up to this.

Here's my take on a period of history I haven't studied too closely (I'm a Mesolithic kinda guy).

So, those of you who know more about this period, please correct me if I'm wrong.

In the 30s, it looks like Germany and Austria were well on the way to becoming a major world power. It had the best scientists, designers, artists, and was making history in fields like pyschology. Many of the leading figures in all these areas were Jews. There was also a faction of more traditional Jews, who advocated a serparate Jewish homeland. Many of these emigrated to Palestine. They were viewed by most German Jews as extremists. The majority considered themselves Germans, and were an important part of the exciting things that were happening in the country.

Than along came the fascists- followed swiftly by the Holacost. At the end of the war, the surviving Jews in Europe wanted somewhere of their own to live.

And who can blame them? They'd been persecuted and slaughtered all over Europe for their religion for at least a thousand years (probably two thousand).

And what about the 'extremist' Jews who'd been warning about this kind of thing all along. Boom, they were right, and they dictated the flavour of the state of Israel.

Enter the British.

My father was a British paratrooper in Palestine during the troubles.

After WW2 Britain was fucked. We were totally broke. We already owed the US a fortune for weapons and supplies, but we were fucked. We had bits of Empire all over the world that we could no longer support. The US began picking up the important bits, but then there was Palestine.

The last thing we wanted was the Jews and Palestinians blowing hell out of each other, with us caught in the middle, trying to stop it. Obviously, the sooner we got the hell out of there the better.

I'm sure there were other interests at work, but the net result was a cold, incompetant, fudged solution that basically robbed the Palestinians of their homes, land, and country.

Britain woke up with a hangover and left the place in a mess.

Here's something maybe someone can help me with. Wasn't most of Palestine inside what is now Jordan? And isn't 80% of the Jordanian population Palestinians?

I'm sure there's some surprising connection there.

Anyway- it's never simple is it?

My dad's take on it all was, they'd sell stolen British army weapons to both the Jews and the Palestinians, making sure they'd never fire before handing them over.

Anth, would like to hear some input on this from those who know more.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:23:44 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: As you say, just because the wanted
Message:
a homeland does not make driving people off thier land and out of thier homes ok and that is still what is causeing the war.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:11:38 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: :: clash :: OT^2
Message:
My father was a British paratrooper in Palestine during the troubles

---

My Daddy was a bankrobber

G C G
But he never hurt nobody

G C G
He just loved to live that way

C D G
And he loved to steal your money

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:31:48 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jordan
Message:
About half of the population of modern Jordan consider themselves Palestinian. Before the occupation of Palestine by the Israeli state, Jordan included Paletine, and was then called Transjordan (it straddled the River Jordan)

Syria, Iraq, Eqypt, Transjordan et al were all part of the Ottoman Empire (a centuries old multi-cultural Islamic Empire that took in modern Turkey, North Africa, the Middle East, and in Europe, Romania, Bulgaria, and former Yugoslavia.) The Ottomans allied with Germany in the First World War. Following its defeat the Ottoman Empire was dismembered and independent countries formed instead. The British mostly drew the new map, largely following the administrative divisions used by the Ottomans.

Thus was the state of Transjordan formed. It was mainly into this state, and in particular into Palestine itself, that Jewish emigration from Europe headed, with that turning into a flood in the aftermath of the Second World War's Holocaust.

The slogan then was a land without people for a people without land but it was a lie. Palestine was the most crowded and fertile part of Transjordan. The United Nations 'gave' a part of Palestine to the Zionist settlers, but the modern Israeli state has expanded by force of arms far beyond these borders, and has yet to define the extent of its ultimate territorial ambitions.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:04:36 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Rant indeed.
Message:
An alternative view, proposed by my friend Beth... the cycling princess from Alaska:

The WORLD gave israel to the israelis' 53 years ago because the UN deemed it
appropriate after the jews had been exiled, and killed all over the world
for thousands of years.

A brief history of israel for you, who obviously doesnt' understand it.
Most of this is paraphrased from a pro-Peace site, so its not particularly
Israeli biased or anything:

At the time Israel was created all Arab regimes - including Palestinian
leaders of the time - categorically rejected the partition plan and vowed to
destroy Israel. At that time troops from Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq
entered Palestine to support the local Palestinian Arabs. (i.e the arabs
were the attackers)

The war left the new Israeli state with 80 per cent of the territory that
was to have been divided between the two communities. The number of Arabs
within Israel had been reduced from around 700,000 to 165,000. Many had fled
in the face of the Israeli counter-attack, spurred on by news of real - and
invented - massacres in Arab villages. Few imagined that they would never
return to their homes.

What was left of Arab territory in Palestine was soon incorporated into
neighbouring states. Egypt took over administration of the Gaza strip and
Transjordan (now just Jordan) took over the sizeable West Bank, which
included the Old City of Jerusalem, to create the Hashemite Kingdom of
Jordan. (so egypt and jordan took land intended for the palestinians and
KEPT IT for themselves)

Then we had the Suez Canal conflict:
Nasser took the Suez canal and blockaded the Straits of Tiran, Israel's only
outlet into the Red Sea (i.e. once again the ARABS were the aggressors).
Israel promptly invaded Sinai on October 29, 1956, and the former colonial
powers Britain and France joined her in what amounted to an invasion of
Egypt. Israel was eventually forced to relinquish its gains in Gaza and
Sinai and the European powers to withdraw. So despite the fact that the
egyptians were the aggressors, Israel had to return the land won.

The 6 Day War:
Tension had been building throughout the first half of 1967, with Israel
warning the Arabs states to end their support for Arab guerrillas raiding
Israel from neighbouring countries (i.e. the arab guerillas were performing
terrorist acts on israeli citizens - the arabs were once again the
aggressors). The Arabs saw war as inevitable and, despite the clear
possibility of a surprise Israeli pre-emptive strike, they were confident of
victory this time. Israel attacked Egyptian airfields and destroyed most of
Egypt's air force on the ground within a couple of hours. This allowed
Israeli forces speedily to capture Sinai. Israel bussed their troops back
to Jerusalem and into the attack against Jordan, occupying the West Bank and
the Old City before Jordan accepted a UN demand for a ceasefire on the
evening of 7 June. Egypt accepted the following day, allowing the Israelis
to switch their attention to Syria. Quneitra in the Golan Heights was
occupied and Syria accepted the ceasefire on 10 June. The defeat was so
swift that Arab reinforcements from as far away as Algeria and Kuwait were
not able to arrive in time.

The Yom Kippur War (another Arab offense, what a surprise!):
On October 6, 1973 - the Jewish Day of Atonement, an Israeli national
holiday - Egyptian forces blasted their way through the sand defences built
around the Israeli lines at the Suez Canal and succeeded in crossing the
waterway. So once again, the Arabs were the aggressors. The Egyptians made
some initial gains but this had to be balanced against Syrian loss of ground
as the Israelis recovered from their initial shock. At one point Israeli
forces were only 24 miles from Damascus. The October war, in which 19,000
died, was at least a victory for Egyptian and Syrian bluff. Present Anwar
Sadat had previously tempered some of his more violent rhetoric and no one
believed the two Arab countries had the stomach for another fight.

Probably only the Egyptians and Syrians knew of the plans. Other states,
including Jordan and Iraq, joined in after the initial offensive.

The Arabs showed that they had improved their strategy since 1967. They also
had better weapons from their ally, the Soviet Union, including an umbrella
of SAM missile defences. But the fact that the Israelis were able to recoup
made this far from an Arab victory in terms of military success.

Sadat went on to fly to Jerusalem in 1977 and become the first Arab leader
to make peace with Israel.

Lebanese Wars:
This was in fact a series of wars, waged by Israeli to counter the
cross-border raids performed by Palestinian guerrillas in Lebanon, Israel's
northern neighbour. Once again the Israelis were attacked by terrorists and
chose to protect itself - i.e an ARAB aggression and harboring of guerillas.

Israel had responded to Palestinian guerrilla attacks by several retaliatory
incursions, including a major operations in the late 1970s. But under prime
minister Menachem Begin and his hawkish defence minister Ariel Sharon,
Israel launched a full-scale invasion of its northern neighbour on 6 June,
1982.

The Israelis unilaterally withdrew from most of Lebanon in February 1985 but
still maintain a 'security zone' on the Lebanese side of the frontier. Who
can blame them?

Intifada:
On December 6 1987, six Palestinian workers were killed in the Gaza Strip
when an Israeli ran into them with a truck. Palestinians were convinced the
accident was deliberate murder and three days later, a Palestinian youth
picked up a stone from the ground and threw it at an Israeli patrol. His
friends followed suit and soon hundreds joined in.

The spontaneous uprising in the occupied territories, after 20 years of
Israeli rule, took everyone by surprise, not least the exiled Palestinian
leadership which was forced to try to keep pace with events on the ground.
Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza had been under Israeli rule for a
generation and despite some stirrings here and there, Israel's domination
had gone largely unchallenged.

A bunch of teenagers were to change all that. Barricades were set up
throughout the territories, tyres were burned and the illegal Palestinian
flag hoisted in 'liberated' areas. Women and old men would gather the stones
with which the Palestinian youth would bombard their oppressors.

Israeli did not know how to react. It was difficult to denounce such a
popular and uncoordinated movement as the work of 'terrorists'. Some
political leaders cautioned that Israel should pull back but the hardline
'Iron Fist' policy of defence minister Yitzhak Rabin prevailed. He famously
advised the security forces to break the bones of the rioters they detained.
The Israelis closed universities, deported alleged troublemakers, tore down
Palestinian homes - all to no avail. The unrest nevertheless galvanised the
international community into finding a permanent solution, a process that
culminated in the Oslo agreement in 1993.

The Current Conflicts:
I'll assume you can read the newspaper and understand the current conflicts
going on. Israel gave Palestinians certain areas to live in but limited
freedoms and movements. Wouldn't you if it was your country who had been
systematically attacked by these people over and over again? The
palestinians are pissed and do stupid arab things like send 7 year old kids
to shoot at soldiers and then hold them up to the press when they get
killed. I certainly don't condone killing civilians but I think at this
point Israel has had quite enough...who can blame them after reading the
above.
--End Quote

The salient point here is that the Palestinians have twice rejected a 50/50 division of the lands we know as Israel and Palestine in favor of a holy war to drive the Jews out of the middle east and begin the diaspora again. It is not surprising that Palestine is a basket case. There is nothing that Israel or the US could possibly do to forestall the terrorist mass murder carried out by a radical cult of Islam, other than kill, disgrace, jail or convert every last one of them. There is no such thing as the ability to invent the truth. You either commit yourself to see it, or you depend on others to see it for you.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:57:57 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Another point
Message:
'The number of Arabs within Israel had been reduced from around 700,000 to 165,000. Many had fled in the face of the Israeli counter-attack, spurred on by news of real - and invented - massacres in Arab villages. Few imagined that they would never return to their homes. '

It should also be mentioned that at that time 800000 Jews from Arab countries were made refugees and had to flee to(the newly created) Israel. Like the Palestinian refugees these refugees were kept in caps(ma'abarot).
Israel, unlike the Arab states, did not keep these people in camps for long. It it had there would be a 'Jewish refugee' problem today equivalent to the Palestinian refugee problem.
Then there is the question of where are the Jews from Jordan(trans-Jordan). All murdered.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:26:18 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Your sources are wrong ol buddy
Message:
Hate to disagree with you on any issue, but that history is incorrect.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 02:15:31 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: Your sources are wrong ol buddy
Message:
Well you don't know what my sourtces are.
I suggest you do a (google?)search on 'Jews from Arab countries'.

Here is an example, a letter from an Iraqui Jew,

Letter to the Editor to the

ABA Journal – March 2001

The Jewish Dispossessed

http://www.abanet.org/journal/mar01/letters.html

A major obstacle to peace in the Middle East is the Palestinian refugee problem. Yet, a key component to understanding it has been overlooked and obscured in the current dialogue. What is this elusive component? The exodus of Jews from Arab countries. These Arab Jews now constitute more than 40 percent of Israel’s population.

These Jews fled their homes under threats of persecution and death. For example, in 1951, when they were permitted to leave, more than 100,000 Jews left Iraq. They fled as stateless citizens, having given up their possessions, property and the only homeland they had known for 2,500 years.

Iraqi Jews were fortunate to escape with their lives since Prime Minister Nuri Said recommended a final solution in a meeting with Jordan’s prime minister and Sir Alec Kirkbride, the British ambassador to Jordan. Said proposed the Jews should be forcibly evicted 'in army lorries escorted by armored cars ... to the Jordanian-Israeli frontier,' according to Kirkbride. There, they would be ordered to 'cross the line,' then, in all probability massacred.

The reason so many Iraqi Jews left in 1951 was fear. Even with a remnant of Jews remaining in Iraq, hangings continued. The most infamous ones occurred Jan. 27, 1969, when nine Jews were hung in Baghdad’s public square for being alleged 'American and Israeli spies.' Baghdad Radio called upon all Iraqis to 'come and enjoy the feast' and declared a national holiday. Some 500,000 paraded and danced past the scaffolds where the bodies hung. Today, less than 50 Jews remain in Baghdad—out of a community of more than 200,000. Who kept the Jews’ property? The Iraqi government, including attempts to expropriate more than $200 million in community property alone.

This pattern was repeated throughout Arab lands, where 1948 Jewish populations have been decreased to next to nothing. To where did these Jewish refugees vanish? The majority went to Israel, often living in tent camps for up to 12 years, just as the Palestinian refugees. However, they got citizenship in Israel and did not remain permanent refugees.

Palestinian commentators and others would have you believe that no Jews were forced to leave Arab lands. A case in point is the December cover story, 'Where Will They Go?' by Jeffrey Ghannam. The article briefly states that '600,000 Jews lost property when Arab nations expelled Jewish citizens upon Israel’s establishment.'

The actual number is probably 800,000 to 900,000 Jews from Arab lands who have been forced to escape since 1948. The number of Palestinians who left Israel in 1948 is probably only 430,000. Indeed, according to a report by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestinian Studies in Beirut, the majority of Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled, and 68 percent 'left without seeing an Israeli soldier.'

As for the characterization that U.N. Resolution 194 provides a right of return for the Palestinian refugees, this is misleading. The term 'refugees' in paragraph 11 encompasses both Palestinian and Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Nowhere does Ghannam explain this, nor is the fact that no compensation has been provided to these Jewish refugees mentioned. As Palestinian Arab activist Sabri Jiryis stated according to Al Nahar newspaper on May 15, 1975: 'No need now to go into detail concerning the way they succeeded in uprooting the Jews from their homes in Arab lands, where they had lived for hundreds of years—expelling them in the ugliest fashion. ... This cannot be justified. ... The problem of Arab Jewry and its transfer to Israel ... has very practical ramifications concerning the future of the Palestine problem.'

While Jewish refugees from Arab lands have received no compensation for expropriated property, Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel’s Custodian of Absentee Property.

Unlike the Palestinians, I have never seen where my family lived for more than 2,500 years since the Babylonian Exile. I am an Iraqi Jew. My family, my relatives, in fact almost 200,000 Jews were forced to leave Iraq. The majority of Jews left Iraq in 1951 as stateless citizens after having to give up almost everything. Less than 50 Jews remain.

This was a pattern repeated in Aden, Algeria, Egypt, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen and now in Iran with the show trials just concluded in Shiraz. On a personal note, my uncle was imprisoned and tortured in 1969 for trying to stop the hangings of nine Jews in the Baghdad public square. Years before, in January 1952, a relative, Joseph Basri, was hanged in Baghdad.

Carole Basri
New York City

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:17:09 (EDT)
From: bill-thank you Jethro,
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: that 47 action did cause a lot of trouble. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:18:59 (EDT)
From: ironman
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scotts lesson in the truth.
Message:
Scott,
for someone who proclaims to know the truth you are amazingly adept and 'skimming' over (even inventing)the important parts. The 'world' did not in fact give israel to the israeli's for any reason you mentioned.

Please go to the UN website and actually read UN resolution 181. The UK, who at the time held palestine as a mandated territory, supported by US interests, gave up their mandate to a portion of the lands to enable the creation of the state of israel.

Fact 1 - the world did not give israel to the israeli's. The UK did.
fact 2 - the bulk of the world opposed the move
fact 3 - In hindsight and by any sense of equity and justice ....the land of what is now called 'israel' was not britains to give to anyone ...it was merely mandated by the UN under their control. Many peoples who lived in those lands at the time were the true owners and were dispossesed ...no wonder there has been such hatred and agression ....someone stole their land.

Come on Scott ...we're giving you some help here ....commit to the truth...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:28:26 (EDT)
From: bill-good line,
Email: None
To: ironman
Subject: Commit to the truth. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:43:08 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ironman
Subject: My lesson in truth.
Message:
Beth's rendition, presented in an unedited text, was a quick way to get most of the relevant facts into the dialog. No doubt you are correct that in a technical sense the nation of Israel was created out of England's mandate. I reject, however, your contention that the Jews 'dispossesed the true owners' or that in any moral sense Israel wasn't given to the Jews as their rightful homeland. It so happens that two ethnic groups have a claim to the same land, admittedly a dilemma, but only one rejects sharing it. You seem to be of the only slightly veiled opinion that the Jews don't belong there, and that they should leave to begin their diaspora yet again. There can't be any doubt, in anyone's mind who has a mind, that if the Jews belong anywhere on earth it is in Israel.... so a conclusion that they don't *must* be seen as tantamount to a claim that they don't belong anywhere. A pragmatic question: If it comes to a choice, which neighbor would you rather have, Israel or the Palestinians? And in a larger sense... you who expound the 'wisdom' of appeasement... which would you least like to have as an eternal enemy?

And another small piece of history. Most Palestinians left Israel by choice, thinking themselves safer elsewhere. Those that did not leave are, for the most part, still raising families and living peacefully within Israel. There is a problem for those who left and now want to return to lands that have been appropriated by Israelis. There is an active debate about how to deal with this dilemma within Israel. The Palestinians barely know how to debate any issue among themselves, let alone come to an agreement that's binding on all in the community. I would say that this is the real problem, and has led directly to their untenable position.

'Someone stole their land.' The only nations that 'stole' land intended for Palestine, and never made any attempt to repare, were Jordan and Syria, land they are hardly going to give back unless compelled by overwhelming force. Your simplistic reading of the dilemma reflects the Palestinian 'dumbing down' of the problem. It is unacceptable.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 08:47:32 (EDT)
From: Ironman
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott continues to learn (sort of..)
Message:
Scott,

as you seem highly dispossesed of the desire to search for the truth (eg your comments about the non existent dispossesion) I will merely stick to answering your question, just to keep things simple.

Q. If it comes to a choice, which neighbor would you rather have, Israel or the Palestinians?

A. Neither. Both are filled with hate and driven by religious / cultural and moral values that I find quite repulsive (the same goes for most organized religions).

Final comment. Israel now exists but is bathed in hatred and the blood of innocent peoples of many persuations. Certainly not a success story. To the rational mind there certainly needs to be some serious housecleaning before the objective of a state or place of peace, love and a postive future can be met. Who needs to argue about 'who did what to who' .... the real thinking should be about cleaning the mess up so the rest of us can seek relief from the unbearable tirade of bloodshed we are bombarded with daily from that horrible pace.

It certainly does'nt appear that 'gods chosen people' have performed very well have they ? The message for everyone out there is to take stock of the true evil that belies organized religions, whether yankee bible bashing snake dancers, jews with homberg hats or muslims dressed like walking tents. This is the disease that needs eradication. It's been around alot longer than aids, there definitely is no cure yet and the body count is monumental. Will somebody please throw a few bucks at researching a cure for religious beliefs ....please ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 16:30:10 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Egad Scott, that is so flawed [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 14:39:22 (EDT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: a few small points
Message:
Scott, Isreali army documents released in the last few years reveal that during the formation of Isreali Statehood, there was a concerted, organized effort on the part of the army to drive palestinians out of Isreal. This, of course, counters the long-standing myth in the American Jewish community (and I am Jewish) that the palestinians up and left of their own free will. Also,(and this is not in response to your posts), I dislike having being Jewish equated with being Isreali or even zionist. When both sides are not committed to a win-win solution, and I believe that neither side is, there will be only destruction and suffering--everybody loses. Paul
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:02:03 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: My rant against jews
Message:
I can only agree wholeheartedly - but what is frightening is the difference between how the bog-standard Americans see themselves, and how the rest of us see America.

media spin and political manipulation of propoganda is so explicit in the US - every time i go there (these days) it slaps me in the face.. and now the flag wavers and streaming out of their churches bleating WAR

It is so scary.. i have a chat room i frequent which is often full of americans, and the voice of sanity is slowly being whipped into a state of emotional hysteria..

And the pronblem is that the more extreme American posturing, the more it makes them detestable, even to us brits, so goodness knows what the arabs are thinking...

And all of this is a smokescreen for the real issue in the middle east.. which most Americans that I talk to over the past few days have NO feeling of responsibility for.

Does the 'War on terrorism' include the IRA by the way ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:11:31 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: why are you speaking for all americans
Message:
Does that include Canada and Mexico and Central and South America by the way?
I have often expressed the same thoughts Bill did. So have many other 'Americans'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 17:14:39 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: oh excuse me you were speaking of
Message:
bog-standard americans whatever that is. So I guess you did qualify (?)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:45:28 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: My rant against jews
Message:
and now the flag wavers and streaming out of their
churches bleating WAR

What were the terrorists who hijacked the planes into the WTC bleating?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:13:40 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: 'The bog standard American'.
Message:
Hi Loaf,

I wonder what a 'bog standard American' is.

The 'bog standard American' is into American Football and Baseball, but not Soccer, right?

However, when the Olympics were in LA, the soccer matches were sold out with crowds like 70-80,000. This is because millions of 'bog standard Americans' have South American, Mexican, and European origins, where Soccer is the major sport.

Hollywood and the American media give us a warped impression of a white, mainly middle class America. The real America is not like this. It is a hotch-potch of races, religions and ethnic groups. Most of them are trying very hard to survive supporting their families, in much more difficult social and working conditions than we have in Western Europe.

So, what I'm essentially saying here Loaf is, the 'bog standard American' probably sees him or herself pretty much the same as the rest of us. Just folk trying to pay the rent and trying to feed the family.

Just don't let them play with guns.

Anth the pina-colada charlie parker.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:55:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: 'The bog standard American'.
Message:
As I recall there were something like 300 Pakistani and Pakistani-Americans killed in the WTC atrocity. Something like 500 of the victims were British. The headline in the leading French newspaper published after Sept. 11, another day that will live in infamy, read: 'We are All Americans.' Here's a small, only-modestly-inaccurate commentary by a Canadian broadcaster named Gordon Sinclair, published in the Congressional Record:

America: The Good Neighbor.

'This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for
the Americans as the most generous and possibly
the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war
by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
and forgave other billions in debts. None of
these countries is today paying even the interest
on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas
DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider
putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about
Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon - not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans
put theirs right in the store window for
everybody to look at .

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and
most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
laws, are getting American dollars from ma and
pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the
Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not
one of those.

Stand proud, America!

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:03:59 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: 'The bog standard American'.
Message:
As I recall there were something like 300 Pakistani and Pakistani-Americans killed in the WTC atrocity. Something like 500 of the victims were British. The headline in the leading French newspaper published after Sept. 11, another day that will live in infamy, read: 'We are All Americans.' Here's a small, only-modestly-inaccurate commentary by a Canadian broadcaster named Gordon Sinclair, published in the Congressional Record:

America: The Good Neighbor.

'This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for
the Americans as the most generous and possibly
the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war
by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
and forgave other billions in debts. None of
these countries is today paying even the interest
on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas
DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American
Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider
putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about
Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon - not once, but several times -
and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans
put theirs right in the store window for
everybody to look at .

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and
most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian
laws, are getting American dollars from ma and
pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India
were breaking down through age, it was the
Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody
loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was
outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not
one of those.

Stand proud, America!

--Scott


---

this is quickly reaching 'chestnut' status. I've seen it
three times.

Is that point of view so rare?

It did touch me when I read it, but I read fast.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:23:13 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Marshall Plan etc.
Message:
Ok Scott, there's another perspective on this.

'Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain
and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war
by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
and forgave other billions in debts. None of
these countries is today paying even the interest
on its remaining debts to the United States.'

The reason the US pumped billions into Western Europe at the end of the war was to stop it becoming Communist. Things were leaning that way. The Communist party had formed the backbone of the anti-Nazi resistance in many European countries, and it looked like they would seize power unless something was done. Thanks by the way.

'When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.'

And in 1946, the American army lined up along the French border with Germany, ready to invade and overthrow the democratic government, if the communists won a referendum at the time. The communists lost it and the troops went back to base.

'When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring,
59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.'

Britain offered help with the present disaster. It was refused. Powerful countries usually refuse help, because it makes it look like they can't cope.

'The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.'

See above.

'I'd like to see just one of those countries that
is gloating over the erosion of the United States
dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing
Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas
DC10? '

Yeah, well, we did build Concorde with the French, but it was banned over US airspace.

'Why does no other land on earth even consider
putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about
Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find
men on the moon - not once, but several times -
and safely home again.'

America, well done for the man on the Moon. Didn't he leave six plastic bags of urine and a blow up American flag?

The guy who wrote this stuff should watch out. It looks like a bunch of the hijackers were from Canada. There might be a few Cruise missiles landing on his head soon.

Anth the Libran.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:04:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The Marshall Plan etc.
Message:
The French helped us out a bit during the Revolution, and Denmark celebrates *our* 4th of July as a national holiday. As you say, our motives were at least partly fueled by a fear and loathing of Marxism, another 'The Right over rights' system, albeit substancially by the sight of a demolished Europe and a tattered people. There are doubtless other exceptions to such absolute statements, and we are better at examining our own motives than anyone. But, in general, the spirit of the thing is even more true than the letter....

And what the FUCK is this crap about the Canadians having to watch their back?? Crawl out of your cyberhole and see if you can't piece together a sense of propriety and perspective. Being cute won't get you as far as you think.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 05:14:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bombing Canada.
Message:
The French helped us out a bit during the Revolution, and Denmark celebrates *our* 4th of July as a national holiday. As you say, our motives were at least partly fueled by a fear and loathing of Marxism, another 'The Right over rights' system, albeit substancially by the sight of a demolished Europe and a tattered people. There are doubtless other exceptions to such absolute statements, and we are better at examining our own motives than anyone. But, in general, the spirit of the thing is even more true than the letter....

And what the FUCK is this crap about the Canadians having to watch their back?? Crawl out of your cyberhole and see if you can't piece together a sense of propriety and perspective. Being cute won't get you as far as you think.

--Scott


---

Scott,

You've misunderstood my comments about bombing Canada. I'm trying to make a point about what seems to be happening with the calls for revenge. It's all to do with 'Harbouring Terrorists'.

If they live in Afghnanistan, the media tells us 'Afghanistan is harbouring terrorists and is therefor a legitimate target for airstrikes.'

I'm pointing out that Canada also 'harboured' several of these terrorists, and, by the logic being used by your government, should also be a legitimate target, as should the State of Florida, which not only 'harboured' them, but also trained them to fly.

See Scott, this whole concept of 'harbouring terrorists' is a bit stupid isn't it. This is my point.

Perhaps it would be better to find out who financed them.

Anth hoping you get it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:47:40 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I am sorry
Message:
i am all scared and worried about what will happen next - and thats why my normal sense of lesse-faire is a bit fractured.

I like Americans. I am just having a really hard time with all the revenge urges which are being drummed up.

I feel powerless, frightened, and sad that bullies (of any nation) rule the day.

This is such a sweet little world. Terrible things have happened - lets not do more terrible things or inspire them if we can help it.

Sorry for being a bit inflamed.. i am frightened, that is all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:02:47 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Hey Loaf.
Message:
Hey Loaf,

It's OK, we're only discussing things here. I know how you feel. It's a very sensitive time, and people feel very emmotional about things. The last thing anyone wants to do is upset anybody further, particularly the Americans.

What we're witnessing though, is not simply 'good' vs 'evil', like we are being told it is. We shouldn't allow the war-mongers to whip everyone up into a frenzy and go on a Moslem killing spree. We should try and understand what motivated the hijackers, as well as bringing them to justice.

It's good we are talking about this stuff Loaf, particularly with people from all over the world. We dont' get that chance when we just watch it on the TV, which is very one-sided in the way it is presented.

This is all new ground for us. It's good to talk.

Anth the fingers

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:02:07 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Hey Loaf.
Message:
I think it's too late. Most Americans know little of the history in the Middle-East, and after two civilian 100-story buildings full of office workers being blasted to smitherians, they really don't care.

America has never experienced an attack like this, and people here see it as evil. Now they want blood. The politicians and military already wanted blood, and now they have an excuse. Whatever happens, it won't be pretty.

I think the target is going to be Islam fundamentalists, which includes a lot of people in different countries. After America strikes back, some other incident is likely to happen which will escalate tensions further.

No one wants war, but unfortunately, by the time they realize that, it will probably be too late. Why didn't the terrorists fly the planes into the White House or a military base? If they wanted to succeed at this, they needed the sympathy of the American people. That may have been impossible in the first place, but for sure, now it's gone forever.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 09:42:23 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Hey Loaf.
Message:
We shouldn't allow the war-mongers to whip everyone up into a frenzy and go on a Moslem killing spree. We should try and understand what motivated the hijackers

---


Anth,

I'm pretty sure we should use the system of courts and trial,
not the system of war -- and to defend each his own border,
and stay well within it, for the time being.

Staying within a national boundary guarantees an appropriate
use of force (to a high degree, at least) doesn't it?

I think my government and media are at fault, for not having
the decency to put off declaring war for at least a few
weeks. This tells me they know they are enjoying a very
temporary popularity. Once more people grieve (it takes
weeks to do so) and process, our anti-war pacifist community
will be heard. I feel sad and alone and angry in my
pacifist voice, but I know there are others like me; but
they are smart enough to lay low.

Don't worry -- a person does not get to choose what their
conscience dictates. I can do as I will, but I cannot will
as I will.

Against my personal sense of saftey, I have to speak out
against the war. I have to do it now, only 3 days into
the very first part of this terrorist attack on a city
that is only a two-hour drive from here; an attack that
is holding friends and loved ones hostage (at foreign
airports, waiting until it is safe to board).

The U.S. made a serious mistake last night on the national
televised media. They sent out a jingoist speech by a
famous preacher, claiming God is on our side in mass murder
of our unseen enemy; and they put two men with stars on
their epaulets in front of a Pentagon press-conference
symbol (indicating quasi-official speech of the government)
advocating a protracted military war against Afghanistan.

The ghastly character who did the speaking will be seen as
mega-scary to most northerners; he was a southern-accent
Brig. General speaking in coded speech -- very frightening
to anyone who has already seen through the overblown
propaganda on television.

Any of us who thought we could ride this out and hold our
peace now know that we have to speak out, and loudly --
and take whatever consequences there are for doing so.
I fully understand that many people were .. led .. by the
speeches these two men made on CSPAN last night. But the
U.S. has an entrenched pacifist movement; most of them
are only in their 50's; still young enough to lead the
generations that came after them, to their proper
consciences.

The U.S. media is cowardly; they all tell the same story,
or divide the story up and each pursues a theme that builds
on the audience of the other channel's stories. As soon as
there is an audience share for the other untold stories,
we'll begin to hear a more balanced view from all sides.

It hasn't happened yet; not that I've seen. I believe it
will and it must and it is a matter of time, only. Congress
is eerily unified; many will have to back-pedal and
reconstruct themselves, for they are also selling votes,
and surfers of fashion and trend.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful of all those families who
lost their loved ones on Tuesday. I meant to wait weeks,
for grieving to settle in, before speaking. I didn't even
know I was going to speak, quite frankly. However, what I
saw on television last night has changed that; I cannot wait
to speak any longer. I cannot stand by and watch this
jingoism as it gobbles America.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:45:54 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: My rant against jews
Message:

I can only agree wholeheartedly - but what is frightening is the difference between how the bog-standard Americans see themselves, and how the rest of us see America.

media spin and political manipulation of propoganda is so explicit in the US - every time i go there (these days) it slaps me in the face.. and now the flag wavers and streaming out of their churches bleating WAR

It is so scary.. i have a chat room i frequent which is often full of americans, and the voice of sanity is slowly being whipped into a state of emotional hysteria..

And the pronblem is that the more extreme American posturing, the more it makes them detestable, even to us brits, so goodness knows what the arabs are thinking...

And all of this is a smokescreen for the real issue in the middle east.. which most Americans that I talk to over the past few days have NO feeling of responsibility for.

Does the 'War on terrorism' include the IRA by the way ?


---

All I can tell you is the U.S. is coming with a big fucking
stick, with murder in its eyes. I'm not kidding. I don't
know if you over there get our CSPAN, but last night (Thu)
on CSPAN, there were two speakers from the Pentagon, standing
in front of the press conference symbol that denotes a more
or less official Pentagon press briefing, laying things out.
Both wore stars (an Admiral of the Navy, and a Brig. General
of the Army).

I didn't believe Little Boy Blew (Georgie Bush) when he said
[paraphrased] 'We will not distinguish between terrorists and
those who harbor them' -- he was unwilling to name names.
Those fucking generals didn't seem to have any compunction
about naming *.stan as the enemy to make war upon. They
also strongly indicated a protracted war, on [this is me]
the scale of Vietnam, in terms of time investment and
diverted resources.

It's been decided. I would bet money on it, based on the
absolutely uncharacteristic tone and language used during
that one briefing. I haven't seen anything like it, on
American cable television, since the Gulf War, with Stormin'
Norman Schwartzkopf (sp?)

It's already been decided, this some 69 hours after the
initial attack on the WTC in NYC -- less than three full
days afterward. I can't help but think that what I've
just said is *exactly* what those generals (well, one
army general and one admiral) wanted me to think. The
brig. general was particularly no-nonsense in tone and
meter, in that peculiar speech pattern characterisic of
the U.S. Army.

Gobbles America.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:07:04 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Spot on! (NT)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:41:23 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Retaliation.
Message:
It's amazing that the only question being asked is, 'Who do we kill?'. This is not an intelligent response.

Doesn't anybody in power know how hard it is to stop a war once it starts. If America declares war on Islam they are in for big trouble.

One of the things that has always attracted me about Islam is the volatile blend of religion and politics. There is a big area within each Mosque where the faithful meet after prayers and discuss politics. Soldiers motivated by religion and martyrdom are the bravest and craziest of all. America doesn't know what it's fucking with here.

Here's one slice of the situation. America started mentioning Pakistan when it was talking about targets. I think there are about 2,000,000 Afghan refugees living in Pakistan. Many are Taliban supporters, as are many Pakistanis, including the Government. What if Bush goes at Pakistan too? There are half a million or so native, or by family, Pakistanis in the UK. They are not going to sit quietly and watch Bush order Cruise missiles at Lahore or Peshawar. There will undoubtedly be large disturbances in the UK, flamed by extremeists from all sides. We have only just come out of a period of civil disturbances involving Asians in Britain.

An emmotional, bloodthirsty, reaction can only make things much worse, and will probably alientate the US further.

I saw a BBC TV programme called 'Question Time' last night, live, with the US Ambassador answering questions from a broad spectrum of the public. He was astonished by what he saw as very strong 'Anti-American' sentiment, from a British audience from whom he expected full support. After all, there were hundreds of British casualties too.

It does seem Americans have a view of themselves as a nation which is out of sync with how the rest of the world sees them.

If they ride into town shooting at anything moves, the worlds image of the US will only decline further. And who is there to talk sense to Bush? The generals are oiling their pistols. Blair seems more fanatical than anyone, with his war of 'Good' vs 'Evil', and Britain has a history of eagerly joining in wars, invited or not.

Maybe time for a walk on the beach.

Anth the bit of screwed up paper under the desk, (Duck, Cover and Screw)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:14:34 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Retaliation.
Message:
Americans are terribly selfish. They just want to polish their cars and watch TV and not have to think. When those planes flew into the WTC, they knew that was all over. Next would come nerve gas and biological weapons.

Now that their shiny cars and television time is threatened, they don't care what happens next. They just want to fight.

It's like if you throw a rock into a pickup truck driven by a redneck, he isn't going to analyze anything. He's going to stop the truck and try to kick someone's ass.

That's what you have here... a redneck who's pickup truck was just pelted with rocks

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:13:44 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Retaliation.
Message:
That's what you have here... a redneck who's pickup truck was just pelted with rocks

---

[laughter heard]

O how true that is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:09:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Retaliation.
Message:
Again, I don't quite understand what you're advocating, though I do get your admonitions. OK, we won't ride into town shooting at anything that moves... at least not into a Pakistani town. I'm pretty sure of that. It would certainly be best if we approached Afghanistan very carefully... not gingerly, but in the same spirit that guided Alexander's conquest of that land some 2400 years ago. The Taliban are not the only force in the land, and if we are very smart they won't unify the country behind them. I'm not opposed to the 'death of a thousand cuts' for UBL (his CIA knickname). There are well meaning people demanding some sort of visible retaliation, but we are a patient people. Mostly we're mourning, holding candelight vigils, and giving blood. Not exactly the best ad for our cowboy image I know, but there it is.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:29:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Retaliation.
Message:
Scott,

You don't want innocent civilians blow up right? Neither do I.

You think it was a crime against humanity. So do I.

You want the people behind it brought to justice. So do I. If this means sending the Marines into Kandahar and having a shootout with ben Ladin and his supporters, or whatever, so be it. If he's behind it, get the bastard.

But for chrisake don't sending off Missiles to Baghdad, Kabul and anywhere else where the inhabitants piss you off.

I don't think we're really too far apart on this Scott.

Whaddya think?

Anth the olive oil.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:44:24 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Retaliation.
Message:
Just to interject

I had the thought (experimental! just a thought!) of moving
directly to a court, a tribunal. /capture/ the enemy. Bring
them in front of a court.

If a body kills a body (one body) on U.S. soil, and both
perp and vic were Citizens, that's how it is handled: we
arrest and convict.

Tell me where that model doesn't fit here?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:07:07 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ::only you can prevent forest fires ::
Message:

I can only agree wholeheartedly - but what is frightening is the difference between how the bog-standard Americans see themselves, and how the rest of us see America.

media spin and political manipulation of propoganda is so explicit in the US - every time i go there (these days) it slaps me in the face.. and now the flag wavers and streaming out of their churches bleating WAR

It is so scary.. i have a chat room i frequent which is often full of americans, and the voice of sanity is slowly being whipped into a state of emotional hysteria..

And the pronblem is that the more extreme American posturing, the more it makes them detestable, even to us brits, so goodness knows what the arabs are thinking...

And all of this is a smokescreen for the real issue in the middle east.. which most Americans that I talk to over the past few days have NO feeling of responsibility for.

Does the 'War on terrorism' include the IRA by the way ?


---

All I can tell you is the U.S. is coming with a big fucking
stick, with murder in its eyes. I'm not kidding. I don't
know if you over there get our CSPAN, but last night (Thu)
on CSPAN, there were two speakers from the Pentagon, standing
in front of the press conference symbol that denotes a more
or less official Pentagon press briefing, laying things out.
Both wore stars (an Admiral of the Navy, and a Brig. General
of the Army).

I didn't believe Little Boy Blew (Georgie Bush) when he said
[paraphrased] 'We will not distinguish between terrorists and
those who harbor them' -- he was unwilling to name names.
Those fucking generals didn't seem to have any compunction
about naming *.stan as the enemy to make war upon. They
also strongly indicated a protracted war, on [this is me]
the scale of Vietnam, in terms of time investment and
diverted resources.

It's been decided. I would bet money on it, based on the
absolutely uncharacteristic tone and language used during
that one briefing. I haven't seen anything like it, on
American cable television, since the Gulf War, with Stormin'
Norman Schwartzkopf (sp?)

It's already been decided, this some 69 hours after the
initial attack on the WTC in NYC -- less than three full
days afterward. I can't help but think that what I've
just said is *exactly* what those generals (well, one
army general and one admiral) wanted me to think. The
brig. general was particularly no-nonsense in tone and
meter, in that peculiar speech pattern characterisic of
the U.S. Army.

Gobbles America.


---

Europe *must* bring pressure on the U.S. to dismantle some
of the worst of the murder in its eyes. The U.S. is blind
in its jingoist arrogance. I love my country, and if called,
I will serve -- I can't explain why, other than the fact that
I did it once before. It's what I know.

I'm paranoid and afraid to voice that opinion. I get
that there are women, children .. and *plenty* of men in
Afghanistan who will die, shortly, for no reason I can
give, and to no good that I can name. It's already happened.

I don't understand how a coalition to prosecute this war was
formed so quickly. What the FUCK is wrong with the Brittish?
Don't you get what NATO just did? While you're condenming
the U.S., try to remember to condemn your own goverment, for
supporting such sweeping gestures of war, which in the coming
days ahead, translates directly to body bags numbering in
the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands. Body bags filled
with people who have no interest in this fight, and who had
no interest in the initial attacks on the U.S. I'm saying
that from having read the same media everyone else has
read, only I draw different conclusions from the same set
of facts.

Sure: there are large numbers of people in those 'bad'
countries harboring terrorism. I've no doubt of that.
What I doubt is that prosecution against them can be
effectually carried-out by killing all their civilians
who .. wept .. for recent losses in New York and Washington.

When I was a little boy, I struggled to understand what had
happened to the German people during that awful regime that
was defeated in WWII. I'm still struggling with that; but
I know (and love deeply) several german-americans; I get
what the immigrant culture brought with them, and I cannot
believe german nationals are entirely different than those
who's families immigrated to the U.S. That leaves me with
a majority/minority split, which is what there must have
been in any civilized nation, anywhere, during times of war
in which the in-power regime waged 'uncivilized' war (as
though there were such a thing).

I don't know what the fuck I'm saying anymore so I will STFU.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:26:51 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: nato
Message:
What the FUCK is wrong with the British? Don't you get what NATO just did?

What NATO decided was that, yes, an act of war has been committed against the States, and under the Treaty that counts as an attack on all NATO members. The UK and other NATA members is at 'war' just as much as the States.

This is not necessarily a Bad Thing. The more countries join the coalition the more the hotheads are going to have to talk - the President will want to keep the coalition together. For all the talk of 'war' I do not think it particularly likely that 'we' will be bombing Kabul for a while, if at all.

I certainly hope not. The crime will likely turn out to have been only loosely co-ordinated and financed by a central co-ordinating body. It is very hard to accept, I am sure, but I think the evidence will show the action was 'demand' led as much as driven by the 'supply' side. Drain the pool of public support and the warlords will be delivered into our hands.

I hope people can understand that although hatred of the American state is widespread, especially among the arabic speaking peoples, that is not the same as hatred of America or Americans. Most of the world (including the Arab world!) would move to the States in a heartbeat!

'It's the foreign policy, stupid.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:15:39 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: nice post -- thanks [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:58:07 (EDT)
From: JohnT -- here's something from the
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: British ambassador to Nato, 1986-92
Message:
Sirs,

Of course they were acts of war. It was indeed a day of infamy. Of course the United States is entitled to defend itself, to seek vengenace for its losses and to expect solidarity from its allies. Of course the perpetrators were criminals.

But that, in a sense, is the easy part. It will be harder to decide just who, and how numerous, is the enemy with whom we are at war. Just how are we going to define victroy and defeat? No foreign government, with one exception, has endorsed the assault. But it seems clear that large and probably growing numbers of citizens in the Third World sympathise with the attacks; welcome the evidence of the vulnerability of the United State in particular; reject their governments' expressions of horror; and are indifferent to loss of life on a scale to which many of them are anyway accustomed.

We delude ourselves, therefore, if we regard this tragedy as no more than a spin-off of the Middle East impasse, inflicted on the United States by a small group of fundamentalist fanatics.

We delude ourselves if we continue to describe the terrorists, like the outrages for which they are responsible, as cowardly. They may be inhuman, wildly misguided and incomprehensibly extreme. But they are intelligent, sophisticated and well organised. They are willing to sacrifice their lives, something usually regarded as the ultimate evidence of bravery. Tragically there are many young people willing to follow their example.

We delude ourselves if we continue to regard attacks on innocent civilians as beyond the pale. If hate, anger and despair are great enough, civilain populations will be attacked. The Second World War demonstrated that this applies to all of us.

We delude ourselves, finally, if we think that we can conduct a war of the kind in prospect without accepting profound sacrifices that will diminish both the freedoms and the prosperity that we all take for granted.

One can only hope that Western governments recognise this watershed for what it is: the culmination of developments that have been in train for a decade and longer. Somehow the free world as a whole, not just the US alone, has to develop a common strategy of response that goes beyond mere retaliation. That strategy must encompass the defence of our way of life and punishment for those who violate it. But it must also embrace a co-ordinated attack on the underlying injustices, the consequences of which are visible at the Channel Tunnel and in the waters around Australia as well as in New York and in Washington, that fuel and will continue to fuel a war under way for some time but now becoming hideously obvious.

Sir MICHAEL ALEXANDER
British ambassador to Nato, 1986-92

Published in 'The Independent' 14 Sept 2001

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:26:31 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Fires and tall buildings.
Message:
AOAJI:

I understand your trepidation, but rejoice that our first impulse is to fight. I was standing in the kitchen looking at the TV with my
landlady and a border named Ron that morning. At that point Ron said
something like 'where's the tower?' I replied overconfidently that it must be behind the smoke somewhere. He said: 'No, I don't think it's there anymore.' I gradually came around. Where was the tower? Are my eyes failing? And then they showed the pictures of the collapse. A few minutes later the second tower collapsed. I've been angry and on the verge of tears ever since, just like our President.

At the time of the Oklahoma bombing I was a runner. I had completed several Marine Corps Marathons, and had run a lot of 10Ks. I had just returned from a long fast 10K run in Accotink Park that morning, just outside the beltway, and felt really great, sweaty and loose. As I turned on the television to catch the news I saw the smoking relic of the Murro Building. I haven't run since, and can't really put my finger on why. It just wasn't fun anymore, somehow. I'm not sure. But one thing that was missing from that experience
was the meaningful possibility of a fight. I'm in a fighting mood now, and it's a little more than a momentary thing. The goal is more than retaliation even. I can be calm about that.

I'm going out to ride Saturday. I'll probably have more fun on this Century bike ride than I've had in a long time, because getting somewhere fast is no longer the goal. Some of these people on the ride work in the Pentagon.

I don't feel as impotent as I did after OK City, in spite of the fact that the horror is worse. In a sense I think I understand this better, though like the rest of you I don't understand it at all. I'll tell you something about the latest apprehensions at Kennedy and LaGuardia. The 'second team' it seems, forgot to wind their watches or set their alarms and tried to get on the plane with a ticket dated for Sept. 11. When restrained they complained that they had 'pilot's licenses,' something that tipped off the authorities even more. Terrorists and cultists are really stupid you see. They have a sort of brain damage that crops up unexpectedly and causes them to make horrendous mistakes in their sophisticated plans. They are, in a word, dopes.

Those fellows all know something now for certain, after a life of living in the dreadful uncertainty created by the doctrine of predestination. They know they aren't among the 'elect.' Their chance to create a 'sign' for themselves has passed. They know that when they die, they won't be going to heaven... but somewhere else. Somewhere probably not nice at all. They failed, you see. Allah didn't choose them. Allah despised and rejected them, long before they were ever born. They never even had a ghost of a chance.
As such they are more demoralized now than any of us. This, I understand.
Such as I have, give I thee.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:34:34 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Fires and tall buildings.
Message:
AOAJI:

I understand your trepidation, but rejoice that our first
impulse is to fight. I was standing in the kitchen looking
at the TV with my landlady and a border named Ron that
morning. At that point Ron said something like 'where's the
tower?' I replied overconfidently that it must be behind the
smoke somewhere. He said: 'No, I don't think it's there
anymore.' I gradually came around. Where was the tower?
Are my eyes failing? And then they showed the pictures of the
collapse. A few minutes later the second tower collapsed.
I've been angry and on the verge of tears ever since, just
like our President.

At the time of the Oklahoma bombing I was a runner. I had
completed several Marine Corps Marathons, and had run a lot
of 10Ks. I had just returned from a long fast 10K run in
Accotink Park that morning, just outside the beltway, and
felt really great, sweaty and loose. As I turned on the
television to catch the news I saw the smoking relic of the
Murro Building. I haven't run since, and can't really put my
finger on why. It just wasn't fun anymore, somehow. I'm not
sure. But one thing that was missing from that experience
was the meaningful possibility of a fight. I'm in a fighting
mood now, and it's a little more than a momentary thing. The
goal is more than retaliation even. I can be calm about
that.

I'm going out to ride Saturday. I'll probably have more fun
on this Century bike ride than I've had in a long time,
because getting somewhere fast is no longer the goal. Some
of these people on the ride work in the Pentagon.

I don't feel as impotent as I did after OK City, in spite of
the fact that the horror is worse. In a sense I think I
understand this better, though like the rest of you I don't
understand it at all. I'll tell you something about the
latest apprehensions at Kennedy and LaGuardia. The 'second
team' it seems, forgot to wind their watches or set their
alarms and tried to get on the plane with a ticket dated for
Sept. 11. When restrained they complained that they had
'pilot's licenses,' something that tipped off the authorities
even more. Terrorists and cultists are really stupid you see.
They have a sort of brain damage that crops up unexpectedly
and causes them to make horrendous mistakes in their
sophisticated plans. They are, in a word, dopes.

Those fellows all know something now for certain, after a
life of living in the dreadful uncertainty created by the
doctrine of predestination. They know they aren't among the
'elect.' Their chance to create a 'sign' for themselves has
passed. They know that when they die, they won't be going to
heaven... but somewhere else. Somewhere probably not nice at
all. They failed, you see. Allah didn't choose them. Allah
despised and rejected them, long before they were ever born.
They never even had a ghost of a chance.

As such they are more demoralized now than any of us. This,
I understand.

Such as I have, give I thee.

--Scott



---

Scott,

I have a friend who is a Goldwater Republican, and last night
we spent hours on the phone, enjoying each other's company
as usual. For some reason (it is our age, I think) we are
able to debate hour after hour, and it is pleasant business.
I think having a human voice I can recognize from my deep
past (childhood) voicing the 'other' view is integrating.
It seems to be for him, as well.

I don't agree with your posts, but I love your voice. And
I hear a great deal of what you're saying.

Continue. -a0aji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:15:35 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ::sponsored by Billy Graham Crusade ::
Message:

I can only agree wholeheartedly - but what is frightening is the difference between how the bog-standard Americans see themselves, and how the rest of us see America.

media spin and political manipulation of propoganda is so explicit in the US - every time i go there (these days) it slaps me in the face.. and now the flag wavers and streaming out of their churches bleating WAR

It is so scary.. i have a chat room i frequent which is often full of americans, and the voice of sanity is slowly being whipped into a state of emotional hysteria..

And the pronblem is that the more extreme American posturing, the more it makes them detestable, even to us brits, so goodness knows what the arabs are thinking...

And all of this is a smokescreen for the real issue in the middle east.. which most Americans that I talk to over the past few days have NO feeling of responsibility for.

Does the 'War on terrorism' include the IRA by the way ?


---

All I can tell you is the U.S. is coming with a big fucking
stick, with murder in its eyes. I'm not kidding. I don't
know if you over there get our CSPAN, but last night (Thu)
on CSPAN, there were two speakers from the Pentagon, standing
in front of the press conference symbol that denotes a more
or less official Pentagon press briefing, laying things out.
Both wore stars (an Admiral of the Navy, and a Brig. General
of the Army).

I didn't believe Little Boy Blew (Georgie Bush) when he said
[paraphrased] 'We will not distinguish between terrorists and
those who harbor them' -- he was unwilling to name names.
Those fucking generals didn't seem to have any compunction
about naming *.stan as the enemy to make war upon. They
also strongly indicated a protracted war, on [this is me]
the scale of Vietnam, in terms of time investment and
diverted resources.

It's been decided. I would bet money on it, based on the
absolutely uncharacteristic tone and language used during
that one briefing. I haven't seen anything like it, on
American cable television, since the Gulf War, with Stormin'
Norman Schwartzkopf (sp?)

It's already been decided, this some 69 hours after the
initial attack on the WTC in NYC -- less than three full
days afterward. I can't help but think that what I've
just said is *exactly* what those generals (well, one
army general and one admiral) wanted me to think. The
brig. general was particularly no-nonsense in tone and
meter, in that peculiar speech pattern characterisic of
the U.S. Army.

Gobbles America.


---

Europe *must* bring pressure on the U.S. to dismantle some
of the worst of the murder in its eyes. The U.S. is blind
in its jingoist arrogance. I love my country, and if called,
I will serve -- I can't explain why, other than the fact that
I did it once before. It's what I know.

I'm paranoid and afraid to voice that opinion. I get
that there are women, children .. and *plenty* of men in
Afghanistan who will die, shortly, for no reason I can
give, and to no good that I can name. It's already happened.

I don't understand how a coalition to prosecute this war was
formed so quickly. What the FUCK is wrong with the Brittish?
Don't you get what NATO just did? While you're condenming
the U.S., try to remember to condemn your own goverment, for
supporting such sweeping gestures of war, which in the coming
days ahead, translates directly to body bags numbering in
the tens (if not hundreds) of thousands. Body bags filled
with people who have no interest in this fight, and who had
no interest in the initial attacks on the U.S. I'm saying
that from having read the same media everyone else has
read, only I draw different conclusions from the same set
of facts.

Sure: there are large numbers of people in those 'bad'
countries harboring terrorism. I've no doubt of that.
What I doubt is that prosecution against them can be
effectually carried-out by killing all their civilians
who .. wept .. for recent losses in New York and Washington.

When I was a little boy, I struggled to understand what had
happened to the German people during that awful regime that
was defeated in WWII. I'm still struggling with that; but
I know (and love deeply) several german-americans; I get
what the immigrant culture brought with them, and I cannot
believe german nationals are entirely different than those
who's families immigrated to the U.S. That leaves me with
a majority/minority split, which is what there must have
been in any civilized nation, anywhere, during times of war
in which the in-power regime waged 'uncivilized' war (as
though there were such a thing).

I don't know what the fuck I'm saying anymore so I will STFU.


---

Just one more quick note --

Oh yes, almost forgot this: Rev. Billy Graham crusade -- are
you familiar with Graham? His son was on television last
night, essentially saying 'God is on our side' and that
God sanctions mass murder! It was very clear that this
man was providing the red-blooded, United States soldier,
with all the moral imperative necessary to carry out the
military mission against Afghanistan in the coming days
ahead.

Theocratic-State sanctioned mass murder, corporal punishment.

Ok, they're coming to get me now. This will be my last
transmission before the Fed takes my toys away. Anyone
need a large collection of doggie pr0n? ;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 00:23:02 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: My rant against jews
Message:
It may be prudent to re-title your post to 'My rant against Israelis'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:18:15 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Israelis and Jews.
Message:
This is an interesting point Rick. What is an Israeli? If an Israeli is a citizen of that part of the world known as Israel, then it doesn't seem the 'Palestinians', born in 'Israel' have citizenship does it? They should have civil rights, like the Jews who live there. The operate a system of apartheid. Eventually it will have to end.

Anth the Semi-antic

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:24:45 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Israelis and Jews.
Message:
Agreed. The problem with the middle-east situation is that it is a ball of string so entangled, that attempting to de-tangle it will result in more knots. I wish I could see some good coming out of this, but I don't.

The way the string is tangled now, there will be more terrorist acts in the U.S. (and probably worse than the WTC), and some terrible destruction by the U.S. in the middle-east.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 03:08:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: My rant against jews
Message:
It may be prudent to re-title your post to 'My rant against Israelis'

Thanks for offering to sanitize this for me, but I'd rather see it than step in it.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 00:24:17 (EDT)
From: bill-correct Rick,.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: My rant against Isreali behaviour [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:28:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: bill-correct Rick,.
Subject: If US had not boycotted
Message:
last week's conference in Durban on racism because it did not want to debate Zionism perhaps a lot of tensions would have been diffused. Zionism like apartheid is now an anachromism. It must be discussed and Israel must evolve from a theocratic state into an inclusive secular state.

There is now no longer a threat of a repeat of the holocaust, the fear of which led to the creation of Israel. Muslims and Middle-eastern Hebrews have lived alongside each other for centuries. If the European Jewish immigrants don't like Arabs they should move to America just as those Afrikaners who do not like Africans have left South Africa.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 23:55:00 (EDT)
From: War is coming
Email: None
To: All
Subject: and the real God will stand up
Message:
This is all so very absurd. The Crusades have never ended. The U.S. and Israel are just modern day players in one continuous example of how people are manipulated. The individual Christian, Jew or Muslim would not arrive at this horrible place of hatred if not guided there by someone claiming to be one of God's homies.

I am sick and fucking tired of people telling others what is right. Obviously, none of us know a damn thing about anything of relevance. This makes us easy pickings for anyone knowing how to take advantage of this. The need for this forum is because of a despicable man who is just such a predator...very small time but still a predator.

Say what you want but I am sick and tired of anyone telling me how to be. I know not to hurt anyone. I think we all do, when left alone.

Conforming to group think is very premie like. Fuck all this and anyone who is so fucking arrogant as to think they know how to be. I don't want to be led anymore

'Constipation begins in the form of our master.....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 01:04:35 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: War is coming
Subject: Well Said
Message:
Thanks for that.

I think we need to start a few anti groups and I heard an editorial that made me think about this.

I'm against 'symbols.' The World Trade Center is NOT a 'symbol' of anything. It's a very large building, and thousands of ordinary people work there.

I'm against anything that deminishes human life. If believing in an 'afterlife' encourages people to do anyhing that diminishes human life, then I'm against that, too.

I'm also against this total lack of any glimmer of recognition of why people might have been driven to carry out the atrocities they did -- why the US is hated with such bitterness. Because if we don't make that connection these kind of tragedies will be committed again, and maybe with worse consequences.

The idea that we can track down and destroy 'terrorists' and that they won't just be replaced by others, maybe more as a result of what we do and how we do it, is ridiculously simplistic. Maybe it's also deluded. I don't think our political leaders are doing us any favors by reinforcing popular ignorance with all this self-reverential rhetoric, flag-waving, and war declarations.

In the process we are liable to lose a lot of our civil liberties, things like habeas corpus, and the like. Like I said below, it scares me. I don't think democracies survive "wars" very well, especially when it's so unclear what or who it is we are at war against, and when we will decide whether we have won or lost.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 10:01:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A new type of war
Message:
Look back over the last 5,000 years and you'll see the same pattern repeated over and over bringing war upon war. At our present state of evolution, I think war is inevitable. The world is a big place and there are many divisions created by geographical distance, differing histories and differing beliefs.

Even in Northern Ireland, a tiny place, there is violent disagreement and hatred between two peoples who are racially identical. So what hope the world with all its diversity? How can people from different countries and backgrounds and beliefs ever understand each other and not want to fight each other?

Always though, it has been, that the minority start the wars while the majority follow like sheep. Look at all of history; most people were just farmers and merchants doing their thing in peace and then the war lords came along and started another conflict. It is always the few creating havoc for the many.

So when will the voices of the many finally be heard? When will the voices of the warlike few be drowned out by the farmers and merchants?

I believe it will happen when there is proper global communication between the ordinary peoples of the world. I think the internet will help in that but it's too late now to stop this new war that is upon us. I think most Americans and British have no stomach for yet another war. There is a vocal minority who are rubbing their hands with glee and sharpening their swords though. They are looking forward to this war. But it's a war like no other because the enemies are everywhere and nowhere. They are invisible - that's the difference.

America does have an enemy, there can be no doubt about that and there can be no flinching from the conflict that is to come. I think it's inevitable. There has to be a war now and the wheel turns again. What is in America's favour now though is the fact that most nations are on America's side. Even Russia. Provided that America and its allies tread carefully, I think WW3 may be avoided. But terrorism is here to stay and for each Muslim fanatic who dies in the Jihad, there will be another two to take his place.

So where does it end? They should put armed guards on the planes though. That will save a lot of lives in future.

I think terrorism is here to stay, not least because the major countries of the world do not want to war against each other. So instead, ""war"" becomes a hidden thing, not set by national bounderies but by private ideologies. It's much harder to fight this kind of war but it is what confronts us now in this new century.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 07:52:57 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Some great points Joe!
Message:
The idea that we can track down and destroy 'terrorists' and that they won't just be replaced
by others, maybe more as a result of what we do and how we do it, is ridiculously simplistic.
Maybe it's also deluded. I don't think our political leaders are doing us any favors by
reinforcing popular ignorance with all this self-reverential rhetoric, flag-waving, and war declarations

This is a good point Joe, how can our government possibly expect to control or eradicate a deep rooted belief system that lies at the core
of the hatred perpetrated on humanity this day through violence.

As Salam indicated in his post above, it is a human wave, destroy one faction and another will arise. The biggest myth of all is thinking that vengenge will stop violence, as long as there is a wronged party the vicious circle continues ad infitum.

It is such an easy sell for the American Government right now to protract the support of the bloodthirsty masses and generate the lowest common denominator response, that of brutal retaliation.

Is there no other way? When will the bar be raised and
someone in power recognize and seize the opportunity to guide us above the standard response to kill and destroy.

There is so much wealth and resourses in this country, instead on spending Billions on fighting terrorizm why not use that financial power and might to assist and develop less fortunate peoples and nations of the world?

I am not anti-american but I frankly feel as if the USA has fared miserably as a World leader, This country could set a much better example. America controls so much of the world wealth and power, many resourses could have been appropriated to divert such occurrances as these terrorist acts in NY.

Violence will not stop with more violence, It is so sorry that many Billions of dollars and lives will now be spent to do just that.

Those billions of dollars and lives could have produced so much more with real leadership, through a government of principles, not corruption, through resourcefulness not retaliation, through education not annihilation.

Just a few personal thoughts in a crazy outraged world right now, excuse me for venting. This is a great forum, at least we can express ourselves freely here. I can't change much on the large scope of world affairs, but I can still maintain and express my own course of action in life.

It is late and I am rambling, I had to attend the funeral of a dear friend earlier yesterday, I was able to say a few words of tribute at his service, it was very emotional.

It has been one tough week.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 02:08:44 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Well Said
Message:
Someone in a chat room yesterday was ranting about How those two great towers had fallen like patriots.. like true Americans.. I was nearly ill. I dislike the hi-jacking of planes, but equally dangerous is the hi-jacking of language to control thought.

A very intelligent and articulate lady politician from pakhistan (I think) said on a BBC discussion programme last night that she objected to this attack being repeatedly defined 'as an attack against civilization' - she pointed out, quite rightly i feel, that America is not a civilized country.

In the audience there was musch applause.

America will play any card it can in the manipulation of perspective.. land of the FREE ?? My Arse !

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 12:10:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: That's very unfair
Message:
I agree with you that a lot of the language is nauseating, and very unsettling. I hold out hope that shortly that kind of thing will die out and people will start being more reflective and thoughtful about all this. But the outrageous rhetoric is on all sides, like that ricidulous statement by the Pakistani politician is equally unhelpful and false.

Many Americans disagree with much of what the US government does, and many of us try to make our opinions known. But the US media doesn't help much, and Americans are extremely uninformed about what goes on outside its borders. That is very true.

But if you disagree with what the US does, and you are a Brit, you might try lobbying your own government. As it is, every time George W. Bush (and Bill Clinton for that matter), bends over, Blair kisses his ass. Britain is in lock-step with the US on just about everything (and vice versa), so Brits are just as complicit as you say Americans are.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 06:02:50 (EDT)
From: The time of Nationalism
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: is obsolete
Message:
..if it ever made any sense. We highly evolved beings divide up land, give it a name and then get people to go 'rah, rah, rah, sis boom ba, I love my country'. Every time I see the Olympics and see people in the seats waving flags, I feel embarrassed for my species. These are all artificial boundaries that we are manipulated into rooting for as in ' for God and country'. No different than rivalries between sports teams.

British arrogance against the U.S. is really quite interesting in the historical perspective. I guess you could say the American colonists were terrorists or patriots depending on your perspective...big fucking deal.

Don't focus on the governments but the individual people of the world, like most of the people in Viet Nam, they just want government to leave them the fuck alone ...any pro or anti thinking re: a particular country is just being victimized by the owner of the 'sports team'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:14:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Uninformed anti-Americanism
Message:
Loaf maybe you are playing with the wrong bunch of Americans in your chat room and watching too much TV whenever you come here. You're painting Americans with an awfully broad brush.

But I must say I have not been surprised by the anti-American feelings expressed here by the Brits. It is after all a national sport for you guys. I lived in Britain for eight years and Americans were generally held in disdain by the sophisticated educated types.

When I first went to live in the UK the anti-Americanism was because of the escalating war in Vietnam and well-justified but then I began to see that it went deeper than that. In the London of the swinging 60s Yanks were regarded as ''uncool'' - which basically meant unsubtle, not quick on the uptake, clumsy, opinionated and arrogant.

At the time I agreed with the Brits and for the first few years that I lived here I still thought the same - that Americans were brash, uncultured and childish. But that's not America. That's TV. TV is made for the lowest common denominator OF THE WHOLE WORLD. American TV is made for universal consumption by the working class consumers of the world. That's pop-culture.

(Unfortunately the presidential elections are part of that pop culture and we can never elect a real statesman. In fact I would like to see the president elected according to the original contitution - by Congress. The popular election has become a farce which is why the Supreme Court could disregard it so cavalierly. Every intelligent American knows that it is a media circus event but they also know that some ivory-tower academic will not play well either in Peoria or Pretoria and tolerate it as a necessary evil.)

After a few years here I started to get to know the real Americans and see that, yes, they are ''uncool'' but they also are not much different from ordinary working class westerners anywhere else. And then you start thinking about those simian throwbacks, British football hooligans, who are basically the equivalent of American ghetto gangbangers and rioters. And you think about Europe's dirty little secret - there still is a class structure and the only people who have a voice are the middle class intelligentsia. While here any old factory worker or wrestler can have his say and he does often and loudly and can end up being the governor of a state the size of Britain and France combined.

Yes, America is a democracy of the lowest common denominator and not a carefully orchestrated middle class one. And, yes, it has been a multiracial and deeply divided society for many hundreds of years longer than Europe which has been till the sixties a white homogenous one.

Educated Americans don't like their leaders anymore than educated Europeans do but they also know that we have to compromise and tolerate the shortcomings of democracy. People from every country in the world live here. They come here and grow and adapt and they keep on coming at the rate of nearly a million a year - far more immigration than any other country in the world. They are our biggest insurance against another nationalistic war.

No guys, you Brits really ought to stop playing your hoighty-toighty little anti-American games. You remind me of the cockneys who come over here and put on the dog and next thing are management consultants because they have charmed the sweet naive Yanks with their fake hot-potato-in-mouth accents.

Sorry, America is the future and we are well eqipped to deal with it. It's messy and no one knows what's going to happen and we're winging it and we're getting there. Meanwhile the Europeans are trying to drag the past along and never make mistakes. The US constantly makes mistakes. That's called learning and adapting.

Time to get off your high-horses and watch the future being created by those who are not afraid of making mistakes while you Brits wail and gnash your teeth at the ''uncool'' Yanks and pat yourselves on the back for having created the past. Too smug and self-congratulatory.

And this has not been an ad hominem against you in particular, Loaf, because I think you know that I also am a card carrying liberal like you. It's just that your post triggered off a lot of the annoyance that I have been feeling against Anth and several other Brits today because of the smarmy smart-alecky anti-Americanism.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:26:48 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Uninformed anti-Americanism
Message:
Pat:

Thanks. That brought tears to my eyes. They're still there.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 19:41:43 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Uninformed anti-Americanism
Message:
I am feeling very emotional today, Scott. I just saw this French woman say on TV, ''Today we are all Americans.'' And I burst into tears. Bless you, Scott.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 13:09:11 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: The British Dilemma
Message:
I went to school for a year in England in the 70s, and I found the British acceptance of the class sytem, and apathy about politics in general was something that drove me up the wall. It made me nuts, so much so, that I gave up talking to people about much of anything. There was also a lot of anger and resentment that Britain was reduced to being a second-rate power, both militarily and economically. Plus, American popular culture, such as it is, has invaded everywhere, and there is good reason to also resent that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 11:05:28 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Uninformed anti-Americanism
Message:



Copyright 1997 Paradise Web Enahancements


All Rights Reserved

Return to Index -:- Top of Index