Jerry -:- How do I sign up? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:15:17 (EDT)

__ Mr. Dooley -:- 5 times a week -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:18:42 (EDT)

Rick -:- I'll let gErRy have at this one... -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:09:23 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Not a mistake -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:05:04 (EDT)

__ gErRy -:- Woh, TWA 800 all over again. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:31:19 (EDT)

__ __ Rick -:- Re: Woh, TWA 800 all over again. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:38:10 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Blame the poor -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:35:53 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: Blame the poor -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:17:28 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- My sentiment exactly -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:16:42 (EDT)

salam -:- I know who was behind caca -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:00:07 (EDT)

__ salsa -:- the post -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:10:18 (EDT)

__ __ Timmi -:- Re: the post -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:29:44 (EDT)

__ [Blank] -:- The 14 lies of JHB -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:41:59 (EDT)

__ __ how did you circumvent the -:- 'no name' error feature? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:00:56 (EDT)

__ __ __   -:- You're not a member of -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:45:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __   -:- You need to be 'EX' rated... -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:15:06 (EDT)

berni -:- What this Forum is really about. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:13:43 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Yeah, but let's get real about this -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:50:14 (EDT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Yeah, but let's get real about this -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:52:15 (EDT)

__ __ berni -:- Getting real and not religious -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:15:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Berni -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:35:40 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Yeah but Jim -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 15:42:12 (EDT)

toby -:- Maharaji is happy -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:33:07 (EDT)

Barry -:- Fucken VIRUS! ot -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:55:26 (EDT)

__ janet -:- Re: was it SirCam?? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:24:17 (EDT)

__ __ Susannah -:- Re: was it SirCam?? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:34:00 (EDT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: was it SirCam?? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:39:33 (EDT)

__ silvia -:- hey -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:10:24 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- PE_MAGISTR.DAM (ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:42:15 (EDT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: PE_MAGISTR.DAM (ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:27:17 (EDT)

__ __ Barry -:- thank u scott -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:59:30 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- Re: Fucken VIRUS! ot -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:41:48 (EDT)

__ __ Jerry -:- You got it -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 15:43:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Viruses - How about this solution? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:32:30 (EDT)

__ __ Barry -:- ummm..norton what? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:20:23 (EDT)

prefer to withhold name -:- a book dedication -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:17:13 (EDT)

__ Voyeur -:- Dr. Andy Lockie -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:07:21 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: a book dedication -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:43:54 (EDT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: a book dedication -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:44:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ prefer to withhold name -:- Re: a book dedication -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:30:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- that better. Now try this -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:13:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Definitely a premie (at least was) -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:22:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Definitely a premie (at least was) -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:29:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- He lives in Surrey UK -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:34:57 (EDT)

gerry -:- David Roupell aka SC grooves at LG -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:35:18 (EDT)

__ jethro -:- A challenge? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:14:23 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- What piqued my curiosity -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:43:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- Thanks Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:32:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Wallabee -:- SC's a wannabe -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:39:31 (EDT)

JHB -:- New Journeys Entries -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:17:28 (EDT)

__ Vera -:- Sai Baba possibly worse than PPSR -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:47:07 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Write to Gill -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:15:14 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Also, White Pages entries -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:21:51 (EDT)

__ __ carol attley -:- white pages -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:46:33 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- Out of the frying pan, into the fire (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:36:26 (EDT)

cq -:- 'Infinite Justice' or 'Operation Re-think'? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:54:51 (EDT)

Timmi -:- Well, I have a question -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:31:03 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Well, I have an answer -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:05:12 (EDT)

Gerry -:- Back to Prem, Please, Pals? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:03:02 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- LOL (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:02:36 (EDT)

__ Nige -:- Or how about a compromise..? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 20:29:27 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Or how about some enthusiasm ..? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:22:39 (EDT)

__ __ Timmi -:- Re: Or how about a compromise..? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 20:54:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- For fun, let's have a baby-throwing festival -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:30:58 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- cure fer some ham? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:56:03 (EDT)

__ __ ggg -:- You did it again such!. . . -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 19:24:40 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- Back to Prem -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:31:59 (EDT)

__ Francesca :o -:- Lock de door and ... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:32:01 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- I swear on the bible that -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:53:22 (EDT)

__ Barbara -:- Lock Icon? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:37:50 (EDT)

__ XX -:- Re: Back to Prem, Please, Pals? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:05:45 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- stop and look hard -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:34:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: stop and look hard -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:06:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- hi gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:39:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- 'The usual behaviors' -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:07:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:11:58 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- My Biggest Mistake Here... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:50:59 (EDT)

__ silvia -:- BIG WORDS -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 16:36:51 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- My Response... -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:47:44 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- The women's war -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:57:05 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Re: My Response...no sweat. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:42:26 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- look after yourself -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:25:04 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- this male dominated forum-- -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Look Janet -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:54:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Look again -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:45:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: this male dominated forum-- -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:42:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not true Rick -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:58:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Not true Rick -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Blatant stereotyping -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:56:40 (EDT)

__ Francesca :P -:- Every one of us makes this place -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:50:02 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- long live feminism! -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:59:52 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- To the forum Ladies -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:47:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- Re: To the forum -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:29:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: To the forum..Yo Janet -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:52:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: To the forum Ladies -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:53:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- No problem Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:45:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- oh dear.. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:17:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: oh dear..Yep, you're right Abi -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:36:26 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- The terror is over-done -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:47:32 (EDT)

__ __ Vera -:- The terror is under-done if anything -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:40:18 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: The terror is over-done -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:41:41 (EDT)

__ __ Rick -:- outbreak -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 23:49:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:43:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:26:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:05:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Scott, give peas a chance -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:46:32 (EDT)

__ __ Tonette -:- Really? Over done? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:14:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No wonder I always fall for nurses -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:48:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Yes, overdone -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:38:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:51:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:18:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Yes, overdone -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:10:53 (EDT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Hope so. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:04:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- What I mean by hysteria -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:48:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What I mean by hysteria -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:50:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Hope so. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:24:10 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Oh please Cynthia... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:26:38 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- Re: My Biggest Mistake Here... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:56:43 (EDT)

__ Moley -:- What Cynthia!!!!! -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:00:27 (EDT)

__ __ maybe -:- if your children WERE americans... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:24:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- It's not just about Americans -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:38:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ Moley -:- Re: if your children WERE americans... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:23:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- It's academic. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 19:20:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: if your children WERE americans... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:40:32 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- P.S. It IS About Me and Maharaji... [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:24:07 (EDT)

__ __ Gerry -:- I'm deleting this thread -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:42:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ Moley -:- Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:48:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:59:14 (EDT)

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:15:17 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: All Subject: How do I sign up? Message:

Over at LG, Bjorn has announced that satelite feeds are now 5 times a week. Enlightenment right in the privacy of your own home. Custom made for a recluse like me. Maybe I'll be as awestruck as Bjorn is. Sounds like you found your niche, Bjorn. Me, I'm just stuck watching reruns of The Nanny and The Simpsons, so where do I sign up? Yesterday I watched a satelite event where M spoke in Rome this summer. I strongly recommend everyone to watch that video. While I watched it, my jaws kind of fell down and I wondered, 'how can anyone reveal such a profound wisdom into just one hour speach' Hmm.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:18:42 (EDT) From: Mr. Dooley Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 5 times a week Message:

would be a proper thing to make Osama watch, if and when captured and caged give him a dose of the real son of allah

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:09:23 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: All Subject: I'll let gErRy have at this one... Message:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011004/aponline130004_000.htm [ airline crash ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:05:04 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Rick Subject: Not a mistake Message:

According to Putin (and he should know) the missiles used in the Ukrain excercise (which had Russian observers watching it) could not have possibly entered the airspace where the jet was flying and they were not armed with warheads either.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:31:19 (EDT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Rick Subject: Woh, TWA 800 all over again. Message:

what a gnarled up, tangled ball of yarn this one is already. I wonder who was on board. The flight originated from Tel Aviv.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:38:10 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Re: Woh, TWA 800 all over again. Message:

15 Russian, 51 Israelis and 12 crew die... according to Matt Drudge

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:35:53 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: All Subject: Blame the poor Message:

Last night, West Wing had a special episode on terrorism, made in the aftermath of the events of September 11th. It was a well done dramatic examination of terrorism, but it failed, IMHO, to expose the root cause of it. In fact, I found myself appalled at it's conclusions, that it's the poor, the oppressed, who rise up as terrorists against their oppressors. Poor people don't rise up against anybody. They just suffer silently until lead into battle by those who have something to be gained by their sacrifice. How poor is bin Laden, the Taliban, Saddam Hussein or Arafat? Only rich people point to the poor and say, 'See, if that wasn't happenning, there'd be no terrorism.' Bullshit. If there were no rich who were jealous of there fellow rich and wanted what they have, then there'd be no terrorism. So stop blaming the poor, rich people. They just suffer the consequences of you rich motherfuckers fighting to be King Of The Hill.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:17:28 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: Blame the poor Message:

Your post brings up some good questions, Jerry. What part does does economics and living conditions play in politics and war? The hatred felt by many extremist Muslims is only marginally influenced by economics, although if there ever was a mass uprising it would be mostly poor people. In bin Laden's case, although he's rich, his main motivation is more religious, cultural and territorial, just like those who idolize him. The U.S. is motivated by economics more than the terrorists in this situation. And oddly enough, I think money is the key to solve this situation. Or more accurately, information, which costs money. This is a war of information. The war of information has already been won in the U.S. As long as the economy stays relatively stable, the population will be content enough to accept that things work well here. The education system, media, and major religious organizations are influential enough to guide the peoples' heads that rest on bodies with full bellies. But powerful as the West is, they haven't penetrated the Muslim part of the world effectively; or succeeded in getting the mainstream institutions of that part of the world to gain significant control. But you're definitely right that if people are hungry enough, all they think about is food. And the one's we have to worry about in the Muslim world aren't that hungry.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:16:42 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: My sentiment exactly Message:

Last night, West Wing had a special episode on terrorism, made in the aftermath of the events of September 11th. It was a well done dramatic examination of terrorism, but it failed, IMHO, to expose the root cause of it. In fact, I found myself appalled at it's conclusions, that it's the poor, the oppressed, who rise up as terrorists against their oppressors. Poor people don't rise up against anybody. They just suffer silently until lead into battle by those who have something to be gained by their sacrifice. How poor is bin Laden, the Taliban, Saddam Hussein or Arafat? Only rich people point to the poor and say, 'See, if that wasn't happenning, there'd be no terrorism.' Bullshit. If there were no rich who were jealous of there fellow rich and wanted what they have, then there'd be no terrorism. So stop blaming the poor, rich people. They just suffer the consequences of you rich motherfuckers fighting to be King Of The Hill. ---

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:00:07 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: I know who was behind caca Message:

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ilovemaharaji

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:10:18 (EDT) From: salsa Email: None To: salam Subject: the post Message:

Re: LORD MAHARAJI says NO MORE carlos_harden 8/22/01 3:36 pm The founder(s) of CAC, aparently premies, have created an obstacle for our Master while trying to serve Him. S/he/they claim to document thouroughly everything they publish. Yet they published information about the WRONG Pat Conlan, a gay man in San Francisco who has never been involved with us, who has never even been to 1 satsang, video event, satelite feed or program attended by our Master, thinking he was Pat Conlon the gay ex who lives in San Francisco. This rather effectively destroys CAC's credibility, as well as exposing its founder(s) to civil liabilities. Worse, there were a number of exes who had been moving away from being obstacles to our Master's work. One, who had been an Assistant Forum Administrator on the ex's Forum 5, had even retutrned to the practice of Knowledge. Another, who was also named by CAC in their list, gerry, had been moving towards neutrality. Now he has been reinspired to oppose our Master; and he is one of the exes who has evolved varios ways to use the media to hinder prachar. So, please remember, dear premies, that when we speak in a public forum, such as this one, potential aspirants will see us as His representatives. We MUST exersise caution to never hinder Him while still being open and honest. It isn't always easy, but it can be done. It MUST be done, if we wish to be His servents and not His obstacles; that, or we must remain silent.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:29:44 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: salsa Subject: Re: the post Message:

Barf bag, please.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:41:59 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: salam Subject: The 14 lies of JHB Message:

I thought Bjorne is getting voiceourous a bit having a go at jhb and accusing him of making 14 lies. I found that strange. Now why would he mention that particular number for? And considering how large ex-premie.org is, I don't find that terribly bad. The 14 lies of jhb

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:00:56 (EDT) From: how did you circumvent the Email: None To: [Blank] Subject: 'no name' error feature? Message:

it would never let ME do that. you must have ops or admin or something.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:45:37 (EDT) From:   Email: None To: how did you circumvent the Subject: You're not a member of Message:

the elite internet spy network.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:15:06 (EDT) From:   Email: None To:   Subject: You need to be 'EX' rated... Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:13:43 (EDT) From: berni Email: bernee@flashmail.com To: All Subject: What this Forum is really about. Message:

Hi all, I just wanted to voice my agreement with Pat when he says that, despite the theme of the forum, he lacks enthusiasm for discussions about Maharji and 'knowledge'. I suppose to premies it means everything to be able to go under the blanket rather than think about the terrible things that are going on, but to those of us who have lost any faith we might have had in some sort of guiding force (god?) to this random, violent life, it is all of little significance. Of course, as I have said before, I recognise the importance of providing an alternative to the Elan Vital propaganda (thus helping aspirants make a better informed decision) and the support of those escaping. But it is these conversations about what can be done to move the human race forward since September 11th that have drawn me back in. We all got got sucked into premiedom because we wanted to know more about the human condition and how best to improve ourselves. Now that we no longer trust that M knows how to help us with either, we only have each other - which is why the forum can be so important. I feel an important lesson was learnt in however many years each of us spent under the spell of knowledge and it trappings. i.e. Don't trust leaders - they are no wiser than any one else and should be there simply to oraganise things and administer the wishes of the people. In fact, it is more than likely that leaders are way out of touch with normal life and are less wise to what's going on than those they lead. That's why it's a shame that there is so much pro/anti feelings about America, Ireland, England etc. Surely it's the people in each country that count - not the government that is usually voted in by a small percentage of the population and more than likely contains more members that have been corrupted by power or greed than genuine public servants. We have a much stronger bond here on the net that transcends geographical boundaries and will, as time goes on, hopefully grow to make a 'one-world' society. So IMHO, despite the political argy-bargy, all these conversations about what society should be doing to make the world a safer place, are relevant on an ex-premie forum. Also, because of the irrational emotional defensive attitude we must have all felt if anyone criticisced our Lord, we are better able to understand, to some small degree, the mentality of religious fundamentalists. I hope that Bush and cohorts have spent a long time talking to ex-members of Al-Qaeda as, in the same way that EPO and exes can portray and accurate picture of the whole premie world, so too will the ex-al-qaeda's be able to help to 'know your enemy'. I guess what is not relevant is the defense that some people have of a particular political party or the idea that all Americans, Russians, Brits etc. are all the same and attack a whole nation because of a few statements read in the newspaper. Apart from the reasons above, I think there is a deeper raison d'etre for this forum and Nigels recent post has the beginnings of a sort of forum constitution... 'pro-common sense, pro-democracy, pro-universal human rights, pro- the safety and security of innocent civilians everywhere. I am anti the exploitation of the poor by the rich, anti the persecution of minorities, anti one-party communism, anti the uninvited meddling in smaller nations' affairs by their more powerful neighbours (be it from countries on the left or right), anti-dictatorships of the left, right or fundamentalist nutter. Oh - and I am also anti-organised religion, new-age beliefs and creationist thought. Then there's anti-handgun-law, anti-death penalty, anti-royalist and anti the existence of an unelected House of Lords....and anti-pacifist on the grounds that there is indeed such thing as a just war I know this was not meant to be a manifesto, and I hope you don't mind me quoting it, Nigel, but maybe some of us should use this as a starting point to define our interpretation of what we are doing here. Anyhow,I know we are powerless to do much about whatever happens in Afghanistan etc. ( no matter what we think or say it looks like there will be fighting soon) but I find it helpful to read and discuss these issues on a forum where people have come through what we have - and learnt from it. I just wish I had more time, it's hard enough reading all the posts but contributing as well?!....- I'd better go and do some work now. Best Wishes berni

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:50:14 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: berni Subject: Yeah, but let's get real about this Message:

My colleagues, friends, neighbours and relatives don't need, and aren't drawn to, an internet forum for talking about the implications of September 11. Nor would I ever be, I can't imagine. It's just that we all happened to come together here with a much more precise and unique agenda, to discuss and, in some ways, confront the Maharaji cult that exploited us and continues to exploit others even today. I agree, that agenda, which is not particularly timely, pales in urgency contrasted with the world events that concern us all. But I also see that we're suffering a level of infighting and division here that's most unfortunate given our common bonds as former premies. I've never before had a bone to pick with Dermot, Nigel, Moley, Cynthia or many others who I've enjoyed sharing this space with but now politics has 'rented us asunder'. If only people were inclined to make the simple transition of using AG for these issues and leaving this forum for Maharaji-related issues, it'd be no problem. Those who wanted to hash political matters out could do so, keeping a clean slate, as it were, on this forum, for the topics that really bring us together more than they divide us. We need a certain level of cohesiveness, some fundamental agreements, I think, if we want to avoid being just another internet fight club. Now, I know that, in some ways, world events can't help but reflect various ways on Maharaji and his cult. But most of the political discussion here hasn't been about that anyway. So, that's what I think. I'm going to try to encourage people to move these discussions over there. I mean, what's the harm in doing that? Nothing, as far as I can tell.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:52:15 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Yeah, but let's get real about this Message:

Jim: I'm not really into discussing the WTC attack on AG along with the other stuff that finds its way there. And I'm not into Berni's 'manifesto' either. I don't disagree with the specific points, but have a hunch I'd disagree with the implied program. I'm not really into discussing Maharaji either. So I guess that lets me out of about everything. That's OK. My thinking has sort of gelled to a concise explanation of the phenomenon anyway, and it's time to get back to some of my money-making projects and exercise program. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:15:08 (EDT) From: berni Email: None To: Jim Subject: Getting real and not religious Message:

Hi Jim, I guess you are right about retaining focus and not getting into areas where we have different opinions on other topics such as politics, education, nutrition and the colour we should paint our walls. I think most of these debates are a result of the shock, fear, sadness and other emotional turmoil that we have all been experiencing since September 11th. However I still think, as Dawkins said last week in the Guardian, that this whole tragedy has come about through religious indoctrination and that is directly related to the subject matter of the forum. He speculates about how people with the mentality of the highjackers could be developed...but because I have no scanner I will just quote a few sections ( missing bits between [..]) '...You'd have to get them young. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie (that they would be rewarded with 72 Virgin Brides etc. in heaven ) sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart.... As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand; a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it ( nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give thtem flying lessons. [..] I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end [..] that a matryr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming throught a wormhole to another universe [..] especially if they also believe that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. ' Richard Dawkins September 15th. But I guess this challenges religion as a whole rather than Elan Vital and is not the 'precise and unique agenda, to discuss and, in some ways, confront the Maharaji cult that exploited us' that you define the forum as. So I agree that maybe some of these debates should be off on another forum except for those OT subjects that help us ex-premies find inspiration in our heathen lives. But at least we are free to discuss these things amongst ourselves - rather than the old days of S.S & M. and nothing else, apart from darshan/devotion ( the fourth leg of the stool ). all the best berni

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:35:40 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: berni Subject: Thanks, Berni Message:

...for typing out that Dawkins stuff. Definitely not OT. I actually enjoy the OT stuff as it gives me insight into the people here but I think the political stuff is being divisive and rubbing a few people the wrong way. We'll never all agree politically although I've quite enjoyed the debate. The thing is that it has begun to dominated the forum almost to the exclusion of on-topic and other off-topic stuff.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 15:42:12 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah but Jim Message:

it seems to me it's just been a 'a fucking huge mega hurricane in a teacup ' , I'm sure it'll blow over :) No really , after all my moans, groans , disputes and everything else I know (after a little breather) that the diverse people here (Right, Left or centre) are as interesting and intelligent bunch of folks to be found anywhere.I'm sure a sense of cohesiveness will return in the natural flow of things. Speaking for myself, I've had my moans about things happening here recently but there's no real animosity.Hey, I've been trying REALLY hard to dislike Scott for ages and just can't do it :) As for me , I'm having a little break ,,,,,believe it or not I have important deadlines to meet but as it's more self employment than a boss breathing down my neck, I've let it slip.And yeah, I reckon the main focus here is already returning to focus on you know who. Slowly but surely. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:33:07 (EDT) From: toby Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji is happy Message:

'cause we don't even talk about him here anymore. No one tries to bring him down here and all Jagdeos are forgotten. How wonderful for him. Maybe he supported bin Laden with his 'divine Grace'. Very effecful Toby

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:55:26 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: Fucken VIRUS! ot Message:

Hey everyone how the fuck are ya? I've been off for a fucking month. Picked up a fucking virus from hell that took everything off my desk top, wiped out my start menue, and blew my activeX security files. If it wasn't for a friend sending me a boot disk and the start up CD - I think I would have had to throw my system into the landfill! Not one tech would touch me, and not one store that sold my system would ither! Fuckers. Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone has had a simular virus (the same prognosis?). And what did you do about it? SHIT ITS FUCKING GREAT TO BE WIRED AGAIN!!!!!!I thought I was going to fucken die!! YEEEEEeeeEEEEeeeEEeeee HAAaaaaAAAaaa Mutha Fuckas- I'm BACK!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:24:17 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Barry Subject: Re: was it SirCam?? Message:

some questions: are you running Windows? do you have a folder that came pre-named 'My documents'? if you did, or do, first off, CHANGE THE NAME OF THAT FOLDER RIGHT NOW. call it anything but that. next Q: look in your recycle area for something starting with SirC or SCam. if you see any such, sircam is still in your system. then go look to see what is in your exe. stash. look for the same tags again. if you find anything there matching those prefixes, sircam has wormed into your drivers. bad news. it will check your date clock everyday for a date in october, soon, and when tht day comes, it will activate a russian roulette program to decide whether to overwrite or wipeout your hard drive. you are not out of the woods yet. if you find it in your exe. drive, it has promoted itself to become the default driver of every thing you ever runon an exe command. keep that reboot backup master handy. and beware of your incoming email if you get anything from anyone, esp aomeone you dont know, and it says something bland and inoccuous like 'hi. how are you. i sent you the following file in order to have your opinion. thank you. talk to you soon' followed by an attachment then youve jus gotten it AGAIN. dont open it. but thats not enough. if you have it sitting there, its already gone looking for your 'my documents' folder and if you still have such a folder, its looking for a nice big chunky one at random, composing an outgoing email to your whole address book, attaching the document to it, embedding the script for the virus worm, to infect everyone further on down the line. if you get such an email, go look at your 'sent mail' storage and see if such a mass mailing went out without you doing it. if you find such a record, immediately email everyone on the list and tell them what i told you here. they have SirCam, if you see that. also, reply to whoever sent you the innoccuous email and warn them as well, same as the sent folks. it crossed my ming back in midsummer when i first read of this, that it could well be part of a global terrorist strike to try and bring down the internet on that time bomb date in the sirCam script. windows is what US govt offices use in their computers. if the sircam worm got into enough of them, it could bring down the system for a while. maybe long enough to let them do something much bigger than sept 11.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:34:00 (EDT) From: Susannah Email: susimae@yahoo.com To: janet Subject: Re: was it SirCam?? Message:

Dear Janet, I am new to the use of a computer (less than a year). How do you NOT open e-mails? I find that I cannot delete them until I open them. Please enlighten me! Susannah

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:39:33 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: was it SirCam?? Message:

Janet: My understanding was the SirCam uses vulnerable mail servers (it may not use yours) so the sent items folder won't necessarily show who has been contacted. SirCam is pretty innocuous compared to this PE_MAGISTR bug. I think SirCam just destroys files (including executables) and is fairly easily removed. I cleaned a friends computer of SirCam last week. I don't open anything that looks even vaguely suspicious. Apparently though, this new NIMBDA worm doesn't even require that you *open* any attachments. Just reading the email will do it. (Assume you can see it in the preview window though.) --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:10:24 (EDT) From: silvia Email: None To: Barry Subject: hey Message:

it could have been worse. At least your brain wasn't eaten by a greedy guru...like it happened to many of us. ())

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:42:15 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Barry Subject: PE_MAGISTR.DAM (ot) Message:

I got several emails with attachments that had this critter (similar to a number of virii in the same family) but fortunately didn't open any. Apparently a trojan/virus/worm that screws up your exe files, registry and even the CMOS BIOS. By sister and niece have it. I use TrendMicro's PC-Cillin2000, which updates the virus files and the software. Caught it and deleted the email as soon as it hit my inbox.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:27:17 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: PE_MAGISTR.DAM (ot) Message:

Just in case anyone wasn't as luck as I. [ PE_MAGISTR Fix ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:59:30 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: thank u scott Message:

I'll check it out. It was such a drag being out-o-comission there for so long.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:41:48 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Barry Subject: Re: Fucken VIRUS! ot Message:

Barry, I hope you have Norton Anti Virus or McAfee and are keeping the virus definitions current. It's the only way, cowboy! Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 15:43:13 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Francesca Subject: You got it Message:

Barry, I hope you have Norton Anti Virus or McAfee and are keeping the virus definitions current. It's the only way, cowboy! Francesca --- There's about 10,000 or so of the little critters out there, and new ones are being created every day. Some are more popular than others. The only way to protect yourself against them is as you say, Francesca. Anybody who doesn't have a good anti-virus program for which they're downloading the latest definition files is skating on thin ice. Cleaning viruses is a pain after they've struck. Most of them are relatively harmless, but some of them can render your system inoperable. I recommend the same programs you mention, Norton Anti-Virus or MacAfee. Both provide excellent protection, provided you keep them current which is easily done by downloading the latest DAT (virus definition files) from thier websites.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:32:30 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Viruses - How about this solution? Message:

Hey, computer users!!!! Don't want to spend money on expensive anti-virus software? Don't want to slow your system down running resource hogging anti-virus software? Don't worry! You don't have to! Let Microsoft do it for you!!!! Simply get a hotmail account, and when you receive an email with a suspicious looking attachment (and let's face it they all are!), simply forward the email to your hotmail account, try to open the attachment there, and let Hotmail virus check it for you! If it's infected, go back to your own email and delete the critter pronto (and tell the sender). If it aint, no worries! Seriously, I now do this, and it's saved me from three attacks recently. I have anti-virus software, but I disable it most of the time because it slows my system down too much. Can anyone see a flaw in this solution? John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:20:23 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Francesca Subject: ummm..norton what? Message:

Kidding! You bet Fran. Had Norton Anti virus before, but didn't update on a reg basis. Learned a hard lesson. Thanks!

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:17:13 (EDT) From: prefer to withhold name Email: None To: All Subject: a book dedication Message:

I came across a book on homeopathy with the following dedication: 'To GMJ, who showed me the thing I most needed to know.' Something about it seems strange. Could this be dedicated to Guru Maharaji Ji, by any chance? Any ideas, anybody?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:07:21 (EDT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: prefer to withhold name Subject: Dr. Andy Lockie Message:

Very much a premie from the early days in the UK and one of the first to see how to generate an income from the 'audience' of adoring premies who knew he had treated the wholy ones....

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:43:54 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: prefer to withhold name Subject: Re: a book dedication Message:

what is the name of the book and the author. I'd say it could be general motors. you know, the Americans did it, yar?

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:44:09 (EDT) From: michael donner Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: a book dedication Message:

definitely, gmj was common short for maharaji...what is title and author of the book? some of us might know the author.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:30:15 (EDT) From: prefer to withhold name Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Re: a book dedication Message:

The author is Dr. Andrew Lockie. Sound familiar to anyone? Can't remember the title I'm afraid! Something about Homeopathy.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:13:13 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: prefer to withhold name Subject: that better. Now try this Message:

Dr Lockie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:22:31 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: prefer to withhold name Subject: Definitely a premie (at least was) Message:

Andy Lockie was in the medical ashram in London in c. 1973/4 with my wife. I think I met him once. He obviously was a premie when the book was written, but maybe he's exited since?:-) Do you remember when the book was written? John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:29:09 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Definitely a premie (at least was) Message:

I thought I remembered the name from the P of P. He also headed the first aid team for Copenhagen 1974 festival.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:34:57 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: prefer to withhold name Subject: He lives in Surrey UK Message:

Don't know the guy myself, but perhaps someone might remember him. [ About Dr. Lockie ]

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:35:18 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: David Roupell aka SC grooves at LG Message:

After the Arizona conference, I am of the opinion that we would be better sharing what love and clarity we do experience with those that wish to enjoy the fruit. And for David, that means sharing little to no love and clarity. Anyone catch the what and when of this little Arizona gig? Was this for the big donors? Argument is impossible when it comes to a living, feeling experience. I am now advising others not to continue participating in feeding other people's relentless need to prove themselves wiser or better informed than others. Ha, that's pretty funny coming from the self admitted perpetrator of the CAC website libel. Imagine this guy advising anyone of ANYTHING. Too fucking much! Face to face is the only real litmus test of anything. (urrp-Ed.) Now come on Dave, give the proper attribution. You couldn't have come up with something as fresh as that yourself. That was ahem, shall we say, 'masterful.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:14:23 (EDT) From: jethro Email: None To: gerry Subject: A challenge? Message:

Face to face is the only real litmus test of anything. (urrp-Ed.) Is this person saying that he wants a face to face with exs?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:43:51 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: jethro Subject: What piqued my curiosity Message:

Roupell talks openly about going to Arizona for a meeting with his master and other wealthy donor premies. And now he is telling people basically to not engage the enemy (us, I guess) but to let that peace, that love, that clarity be self evident. Then, I suppose, folks will just naturally flock to the Maha. So I think it is important to note that perhaps this is the new 'agya.' Most assuredly the 'ex problem' was discussed. His Holeyness himself probably spaketh a parable unto the faithful (after carefully vetting it's contents with his public relations consultant, his lawyer and his accountant.) They know they can't beat us in the trenches and are hoping we just run out of steam.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:32:49 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: gerry Subject: Thanks Gerry Message:

Yeah, either it's the new 'agya' OR they want us to think it is OR Roupell wants us to think it is. My, my, what's an ex to do??? In any event, thanks for pointing it out. Only time will tell, eh? It would be nice if that were the new agya. Sheesh, you'd think a holey living master would at the very least be into live and let live! Bests, Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:39:31 (EDT) From: Wallabee Email: None To: Francesca :) Subject: SC's a wannabe Message:

He did not even attend the Arizona meeting. But yes, that was the gist of the meeting.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:17:28 (EDT) From: JHB Email: jhb@ex-premie.org To: All Subject: New Journeys Entries Message:

Susannah Donner (no relation) left Maharaji and later found Jesus. Gill Harley left Maharaji and later found Sai Baba. Read all about it here:- Susannah's story Gill's story John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:47:07 (EDT) From: Vera Email: None To: JHB Subject: Sai Baba possibly worse than PPSR Message:

I hate to rain on Gill's parade, but there's been some evidence linking Sai Baba to the sexual abuse of children. He was, moreover, caught out by the cameras of the Indian Humanist Society in recent times, faking his magic tricks. Vera

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:15:14 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Vera Subject: Write to Gill Message:

I doubt she's reading here, but she did give here email address. John.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:21:51 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: JHB Subject: Also, White Pages entries Message:

Just a reminder that EPO has a White Pages section for ex-premies. Currenly there are about 150 entries there including about ten posted since I took over EPO. Have a browse to look for old friends. John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:46:33 (EDT) From: carol attley Email: carolincat@yahoo.com To: JHB Subject: white pages Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:36:26 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: JHB Subject: Out of the frying pan, into the fire (nt) Message:

x

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:54:51 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: 'Infinite Justice' or 'Operation Re-think'? Message:

'Operation Infinite Justice' or should that be 'Operation Re-think'? One of the most publicised headlines that preceded what was formerly known as operation 'Infinite Justice' had, undoubtedly, to be the 'Wanted: Dead or alive' tag that Bush placed on Bin Laden. Has the irony of this escaped anyone? Thinking about this, I wondered: how often has a military operation had to be re-named? Inspiring confidence in global security is all well and good. But is that what this 'war' is really about? Is it really about making the world a safer place to live in? Or just America? No doubt my doubts will be seen as 'anti-American', if, as Scott T says, '... our acknowledgement of a wrong convinces the terrorist or recruit that their thoughts are magic, and their will is destined'. But I can't help wondering why 'solidarity against terrorism' should mean that we, as the allies of George W Bush's version of democracy, have to use the self-same tactics of terror against our enemies. Does the word 'Ouroborous' mean anything to anyone here?

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:31:03 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: All Subject: Well, I have a question Message:

What kind of ego charges $3.00 for a wallet size photograph of himself??? Ick.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:05:12 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Well, I have an answer Message:

What kind of ego charges $3.00 for a wallet size photograph of himself??? Ick. --- The kind of ego who says: ''Never doubt the purity of the Master'' and ''You cannot come home without the grace of the Master'' and....oh you know all those other megalomaniacal things.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:03:02 (EDT) From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Back to Prem, Please, Pals? Message:

And Cynthia, thanks for your heart felt contributions. You are always welcome here. Sheesh well, just look at the place. The ashtrays are stuffed to overflowing, there's beer cans scattered all over and nasty white rings on all the nice furniture. The rug's a mess, the dog's been under the bed for three days and who knows what happened to the cat. And there's still some idiot passed out in the garage. I can't even bear to look at the bathroom...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:02:36 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Gerry Subject: LOL (nt) Message:

whizzbang

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 20:29:27 (EDT) From: Nige Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Or how about a compromise..? Message:

Good point, Ger. We could talk about exactly how Goldenballs is going establish peace in his lifetime. Quick, Prem, make a call to the White House... Oh - I forgot, he never said that, did he?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:22:39 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Nige Subject: Or how about some enthusiasm ..? Message:

It sure is hard to find anything more to say about His Holeyness. He just suddenly seems so piddling. I needed the passion of my anger at his hoax or indignation at his venality to fuel my writings about him. I don't feel like directing my current existential angst at him. It would be neither fair to him or interesting to me. I think I may have run out of things to say about Rev Rawat. I guess the Maharajism blip has finally disappeared off my radar screen. I'm looking forward to the arrival of a passionately indignant new ex.....

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 20:54:35 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Nige Subject: Re: Or how about a compromise..? Message:

'''Goldenballs'''???? Thank you! I haven't laughed like that in days!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:30:58 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Timmi Subject: For fun, let's have a baby-throwing festival Message:

Timmi, that comes from the saying ''thowing out the baby with the bath water.'' I can't remember who invented it. Was it the artist formerly known as Bin Liner or Loaf? It's very therapeutic to invent new epithets for Balyouguesswhat and be as irreverent as one possibly can be. My favorite is equating the swirl on His Holeyness' website to the golden toilets in his dilapidated beach cottage in Malibu for which he has just built a guard house for 4.5 million dollars.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:56:03 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: bananasRus@chiquita.cr To: Gerry Subject: cure fer some ham? Message:

http://www.lileks.com/institute/gallery/ads/prem.html is da spam pretender a cured ham or just makin' bacon? Well, all i kin tell ya is: don't pig out on Dat fat ham, y'all... leave a lil room fer some true grits... Peace and lentils, [ http://www.lileks.com/institute/gallery/ads/prem.html ]

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 19:24:40 (EDT) From: ggg Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: You did it again such!. . . Message:

. . . blimey, eimdh - you struck the right note, with piggy prem's palate teasers!! cheers m'dear

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:31:59 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Back to Prem Message:

OK, you guys can go back to talking about Prempal Rawat. I'm not really interested, except as a sort of surrogate for the general issues raised by charisma and cult thinking. They both involve dilemmas, because I view charisma as essential and problematic at the same time. Life's just like that, I guess. To me the last few weeks have been part of an effort to make the general discussion around Maharaji practical, because the truth is not many people care about him in particular. It's also a huge object lesson in the ultimate implications of cult orientation. Sort of whimsical to think about an ex-al Queda website getting sidetracked into a discussion of Maharaji. I'll leave you with that one. :-) --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:32:01 (EDT) From: Francesca :o Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Lock de door and ... Message:

... throw away the key. Right on, FA. People are going to be chased away by this mess after a while! --f

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:53:22 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Francesca :o Subject: I swear on the bible that Message:

from now on I will not talk about politics only crazy religious cults.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:37:50 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Lock Icon? Message:

Hi Gerry: I noticed some threads have a lock icon on the first post. All the posts come up blank under the locked threads (I guess that's what the lock means, huh?). Thanks B

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:05:45 (EDT) From: XX Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: Back to Prem, Please, Pals? Message:

>Sheesh well, just look at the place. How is your head doing?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:34:30 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: XX Subject: stop and look hard Message:

This suddenly smacks of the same idiotic shaming and censoring we did to each other in the ashram, guys. Remember? 'no chit-chat!' 'focus your mind on the form of guru maharaj JI' 'let's get back to the practice. we arent here to talk about other subjects. Maharaji's all that matters in this world.' take a good long look. this is exactly the head-in-the sand habit we excoriate premies for. talking about the great wide world in general is healthy. we are the family of man. the human race. we can address maharaji stuff if someone comes in needing to, but amongst ourselves, the very reason we are different from our still pointy headed brethren is because we realized there was far more to life and the world than repeatedly making ourselves turn away from things that attracted our attention and making ourselves dutifully resume the position, and try to concentrate on Him. we stopped doing that, remember? and we stopped making it our lives' purpose to make others do it so everyone would be like we were. and suddenly the ancient programming reasserts itself and we hear the voices monotonously reminding us to drop those other subjects, and return our focus to Him. yuuuuuuck. are ya seeing it? are ya hearing it? where else have we heard this refrain before? I thought we were over it! so which one of you guys decided you were gonna be Satsang monitor, without consulting us? is there a schedule? a dress code? a list of bongos? a glossary of terms for the unenlightened? please take a hard look at this and ask yourself what reflex just kicked in, and is this what you want in your life?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:06:51 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: stop and look hard Message:

so which one of you guys decided you were gonna be Satsang monitor, without consulting us? is there a schedule? a dress code? a list of bongos? a glossary of terms for the unenlightened? I guess that would be me. Any time there is a vote of 'no confidence' I'll relinquish the password to the next sucker, er person. Patty will be happy to see the $100 plus per month charge vanish from her credit card. And I can go back to being oh so gErRy. And you can post naked if you like. I sometimes do. You are definitely on the bongo list, though. Come to think of it, so am I. And you have just been assigned the service of collating a glossary of terms for the unenlightened. But seriously Janet, I have plans to spruce the place up, make it more 'multifunctional' and devise a financial plan to make the forum pay for its self, and perhaps--gasp--a small stipend for me. I'm unemployed and also enjoying all the advantages of Hep C so I need to look at non physically taxing ways to generate income. Ta for the posts, though. I've been wondering where you were...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:39:13 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: gerry Subject: hi gerry Message:

i have the hep c markers in my blood. cant donate anymore. no symtoms tho. puzzlement as to where i was exposed to it. none of the usual behaviors for catching it. bummer bout yours. assuredly-- you are the farthest thing from a nose in the air,perfect premie satsang monitor that i have ever seen. stay like that. where've i been? glued to the all night tv news, sleeping days. its 9:30 am and i really need to crash.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 13:07:36 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: janet Subject: 'The usual behaviors' Message:

i have the hep c markers in my blood. cant donate anymore. no symtoms tho. puzzlement as to where i was exposed to it. none of the usual behaviors for catching it. Yes, well the usual behaviors can be as mundane as having received any blood or blood fractionals before 1990. That include gamma globulin and the like which are made from the blood of hundreds of individuals. Many or most hemophiliacs have Hepatitis C. And some people include going to the dentist as part of the 'usual behaviors.' Inhaled blood aerosol from the high speed drills. Lots of dentists have HCV of 'unknown' origin. Anyone out there ever share a snort with someone and use the same staw? Oh what a perfect vector for this organism. Microscopic blood droplets innoculated directly into the nasal passages. Home sweet home. My point is EVERYONE should be tested.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:11:58 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: gerry Subject: Hey Gerry Message:

You are very funny and non-defensive. I am so sorry to hear you have 'C.' Are you in England or US? Would you mind e-mailing me about this (I have a couple of ideas). darlingwave@aol.com

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:50:59 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: My Biggest Mistake Here... Message:

My biggest mistake was to start posting here again. After a couple of weeks of reading some (not all) of the political discussions, it's become clear that one's views are not accepted unless they are 1) from a man; 2) especially an educated man; 3) educated women. No views by women and feelings allowed...that's how it feels and appears to me. I am not interested in hashing out Bin Laden's and the Talabad problems, the jihad, the cult and oppression of innocent men, women and children. Why? Because I can't change it and discussing it brings out too much of my old terror. I am a proud American. If nuking the whole area wouldn't start WWIII, and destroy the planet, I say, hell, nuke the whole area and that will be that. I am angry and terrorized. I do want revenge. But I don't think there's a safe way to do it without endangering our species on this planet. I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO. There are many meanings of the word terrorism, the root word of which is terror: terror: Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE Date: 14th century 1 : a state of intense fear 2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT 3 : REIGN OF TERROR 4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands (insurrection and revolutionary terror)...synonym see FEAR reign of terror Etymology: Reign of Terror, a period of the French Revolution that was conspicuous for mass executions of political suspects Date: 1801 A state or a period of time marked by violence often committed by those in power that produces widespread terror. So we have political, global terrorism. Yet I know that terrorism begins at home. You see, for 19 years I was raised by a terrorist. I know all too well the affects of years and years of indoctrination into a world of terror, fear, worry, anxiety. My adrenal glands are shot now. I was much too little to not have my central nervous system destroyed for life because of the terror. As a child living in my little world with my terrorist, I learned how to protect myself. How? By waiting until I became bigger and able to leave--and kicking my terrorist in the balls when he came after me. In young adulthood I asked: Why didn't Mom leave? Why didn't she protect us? Why didn't she retaliate? For one thing, whenever she tried to protect her children the terrorist attempted murder on her. So she was too full of fear to react. She was for so many years made to believe she was powerless. She dosed herself with valium so she could raise her five daughters--the valium didn't make her tranqualized, it just made her normal enough to function. She knew then, as I now do, that if she even had left him, he would have murdered us all. This is know for sure. Headlines: The Hartford Courant: Man Murders Wife, Five daughters, and Self. It would have been us. What terrorism and fanaticism does to those who fall victim to it, living in it, whether in a country's policial/religious oppression by it, or living in one home in Connecticut is really quite indescribable--and not much different basically. Have you seen the cover of Time Magazine? There's a whole article about what products to buy for protection against bio-chemical warfare--and what works and what doesn't. I don't have much confidence in the outcome of our world's plans to fight terrorism. IMO, world leaders missed the boat on that one many years ago, to opt for power and money. And yes, most world leaders are men. So I am a feminist, married to a man. I'm a terrorism survivor, every day, for 19 years. So I think without the big words, I can express what the feeling is based on direct experience. Frankly, I think the intellectuals here are admirable for making such good talk. Shit, you even got kudos on LG about your discussions. For what that's worth from another bunch of cultists. So, signing off again for now. May be back to read, maybe not. The long tomes of arguments have become so boring to me, not to mention too many words--SAY the obvious! I was always taught as a writer that too many words does not a good writer make. Forum 7? What is it anymore? I certainly don't know, but won't be called a cultist because I happen to have educated myself about oppression of women and children across this world over the centuries. Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 16:36:51 (EDT) From: silvia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: BIG WORDS Message:

yeah, I hear you. I agree with what you voiced here. Take care. Silvia, to simple to be taken 'seriously' ....

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:47:44 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: My Response... Message:

First I want to clear up the ''nuke'' statement I made. If anyone here really knew me they'd know I was being sarcastic. I won't even allow a gun in my home and we've got bears (not in the home, outside). I think the use by anyone or country of nuclear or ANY weapons against any humans is unconscionable. Yes children die every day from hunger, abuse and neglect, landmines, you name it...all over the world. I don't have any children and the situation in today's world is why. I chose not to have children because the world is already over-populated and figured if I really needed a child to love I could always adopt. The points I made in my post were mostly ignored. What I was trying to convey overall is that because I know what it feels like to live in terror for almost 2 decades, albeit in one small home, that the feeling of terror is something you could learn about from me. I know what it's like to be a prisoner as a child. Ignored. I have posted views slanted toward my belief that men have done a lousy job controlling this world and have been dissed, not every time, but a lot. I've been told my feminist ideology is cultic thinking. I've made statements on many occasions, not just about the WTC attack, but on other issues, and have been ignored, only to see later that someone, usually one of the guys, after 50 gillion words of writing, has come up with the same, simple conclusion I had made. It has made me feel demeaned. This has been done here...and when such conclusion has been made you guys all pat eachother on the backs while I smile behind my keyboard in disbelief that missed my statements days and weeks before. I stopped watching a lot of tv the on September 11th. I was posting here because I had no other way of communicating with anyone, the long distance lines were dead. So I just had to talk to someone about what was going on. My statement about my mother's inability to rescue her daughters from my terrorist's reign was an attempt to explain to Jim why the Afghanistan women don't stop their sons from throwing rocks. What the hell are they supposed to do? Take away their supper? What supper, do they even have supper? It's about the suppression of women and also the indoctrination of women by the male centered religious fanatics that renders them helpless. How can I compare world events with home events? Because violence begins at home. Not every home, but many. Religions are male centered. Look at the overpopulation of the world because of strict Roman Catholic rules against birth control. You've got the pope, and all men dictating to women about their bodies. Then there's Isreal where fighting has been going on for decades. England and Ireland. Do you really think that the women like this shit going on in their little worlds? Do they have any power to stop it? Obviously not, because things are only getting worse. We don't chose what gender we are born with. I don't blame all men for all bad things. That's why the reaction to feminist views here by the guys has been astonishing me. My ''Fuck You'' abusive post to Dermot was in reaction to being blamed for starting the political posts on 9/11/01, in a thread that was getting ridiculously long about ''when do we stop talking about politics.'' Well, duh, is all I have to say. You choose. That's when. No excuse, though and apologies go out to Dermot. This will be my last post for a while. I'm just not interested in this place right now. I've been thinking about it a lot. Whenever something major happens in our country and the media turns our attention away from the other issues of import, especially legislative work being sneaked through....I believe the same thing is probably happening with EV/M. While the discussions here are both bright and dull, I wonder what new acquisition Maharaji has made while the world's problems are being solved here. Whatever. I stand by my feminist views. Like I said, taking a break was good and I need more. Also, if something big does hit the fan, and folks start heading north for shelter (with winter coming soon) I'll be busy. I hope not. Truly. But I am pessimistic about the future.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:57:05 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The women's war Message:

Of all the Taliban's many enemies, few oppose them with such bitter passion as the women of Afghanistan, whose place in society is now scarcely higher than that of animals. But some, reports Raymond Whitaker, have taken their lives in their hands to fight for their rights. [ The women's war ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:42:26 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: My Response...no sweat. Message:

Hi Cynthia Thanks for the apology and I sincerely apologise to you too for reacting. Believe it or not, I can relate to your general expression of views as you've laid out in your posts. Apart from the odd one here and there, though, such as nuking :) Anyway, enjoy your break ....I'm having a break too. ...and watch those bears ...though I've heard they're not always agrressive especially if left to do their own thing :) Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:25:04 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: look after yourself Message:

there is nothing to fear except fear itself at least that's what I tell myself when I'm totally freaked!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Abi Subject: this male dominated forum-- Message:

I must step up and stand beside cynthia and tell you guys, some of you really are a bunch of pompous, self important blowhards! You truly DO completely miss, pass over, ignore, not pay attention, shrug at, and in numerous other ways, stonewall the voices of the feminine that speak to this assemblage. is it your egos? is it density? what gets your attention? why is it that you get into such rugged, horns-locked contesting and debate and rebuttal with the other men, here, and when a woman has something to say, you go right on as if she had'nt spoken at all? you men need to check yourselves on this, and make more deliberate effort to really hear, really comprehend, what one of us is saying when we lob our commentary into the ring. we all speak english. we all have brains and discernment. I have had the idential experience that cyn is describing. I have spoken plainly here about various things, and gotten zero reaction, and then weeks or months later, lived to see one of the men reach the same conclusion as if it had never been put forth before. can you men really afford to be so tardy and dense in your arrival at the understanding? wouldnt it considerably sharpen your advantage to recognize early information from a reliable source, and heed it the first time you caught it? that kind of wasted time, catching up to the early ones, is expensive. I would think you would jump at the chance to see the picture ASAP. We keep telling it to you. And you keep tuning us out. To your--and to our--detriment. you wanna try running the world without us?? I mean, if you insist on treating us as invisible, we can leave. come on--put yourself in that reality. a world without women. forever. even you gay men would be in tears.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:54:00 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: janet Subject: Look Janet Message:

The forum is dominated by males because we're superior and women should stick to their crochet and recipes; there's plenty of crochet websites on the net. Computers and politics are for men, real men and women can't possibly begin to understand the complexities of the political world. And of course, Janet, men cannot run the world without women. There'd be nobody to wash the clothes and do the ironing.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:45:34 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Look again Message:

hey dave: you poor things. that itty bitty missing piece of chromosome on your Y gene must make you feel so selfconscious. no wonder you fellows are always strutting and roaring. you're hoping no one will notice you're missing a part. it's a good thing we remembered to bring it along. (_I_)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:42:37 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: this male dominated forum-- Message:

I think you make some valid points here, Janet. Although I don't think it matters so terribly much, what I think. But most of us men here are relatively powerless about anything we're talking about, and mostly being entertained, educated and stroking our egos (some more than others). Men are particularly bad at responding to personal complaints or being asked to behave differently. And although there's an emotional component women seem to have, that men can barely grasp, it's more essential to personal growth than a discussion of the current terrorist problem. The emotional component is relevant in a very long-term sense, to the current terrorist situation and almost everything else. And because of that, it isn't immediate or urgent in the way a bomb is. And the men and women who do have power in the current world sitation are the very worse of what men are. I don't want to insult Cynthia because I've found her make alot of sense at other times, I found her post at the top of this thread to be ranting and erratic and self-indulgent. Perhaps you're putting too much value on men and their perspective. If were just obsessively masterbating our intellects in a closed circle, you can still say what you want and need to say. Many times I post and no one answers. I feel hurt or ignored or undervalued, but then I realize there's nothing I can do about that, and that it's more important to say what I have to say than sulk about the results. Also, if men can lay around expounding with each other in a relatively useless way, and women actually have things to offer, they can start and continue their own threads. What's this thing about taking your ball, leaving the playground and going home. If women have confidence in what they're saying, just say it. Say it to each other, say it to the men, and keep saying it. More than anything else, I think many posts have alot of effect here that never get responded to. We just don't always get to know which posts those are.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:58:57 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Rick Subject: Not true Rick Message:

Rick wrote: ''And although there's an emotional component women seem to have, that men can barely grasp'' To be serious, this is offensive to men and extremely sexist. Not to mention untrue.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:15 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Not true Rick Message:

Definitely it's offensive; pointing out a big deficiency is hard to take. But it doesn't have to be that way. It's conditioning, mostly, that can be changed if desired. True? Well, it's hard to prove but a case can easily be made that traditionally men have done the hunting and inventing, and women have done the nurturing and feeling. Do women know more about feeling and expressing feelings? And know more about being intuitive? I think so.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:56:40 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Rick Subject: Blatant stereotyping Message:

Neither men nor women are deficient. There is no big deficiency between men and women. I see a big deficiency in generalising about men and women in this way though. I guess this is the PC way in America - tell men they are deficient and must get in touch with their female side. What a load of bollocks. Women are fine as they are and so are men, in the main. Men are just as caring and emotional as women are supposed to be, just as women can be just as tough and assertive as the supposed male role. It's all crap though, this male/female role thing. However, the more people want to see the world in such terms, the more credence it gives to the belief.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:50:02 (EDT) From: Francesca :P Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Every one of us makes this place Message:

... what it is. Just ignore it. And if you don't want to, and I don't see you here, I'll e-mail you so we don't lose touch! Love, Francesca

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:59:52 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: long live feminism! Message:

Loved your post Cynthia.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:47:39 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Abi Subject: To the forum Ladies Message:

As I have been the main one in dispute with Cynthia, would you mind if I try to explain the background and chronology here or would that be a tad too rational and unemotional? I'd prefer to point you to some relevant posts to be able to defend myself completely but for some weird reason Gerry has deleted them. I guess its in line with the current 'anti free speech' climate as described in the link I posted in my thanks to Nige post. Gerry also was quick to assure Cynthia that her heartfelt posts are always welcome here including , I guess, her ORIGINAL abusive post to me in particular and all men in general. By default I assume my posts are not welcome. So ….1. I posted two little posts, one to Carl and one to Cynthia in response to their replies to PAT C. Carls point was that we were all blowhards and Cynthias was that (mainly us men here) just had no feeling. That all the political posting was a load of crap and anyway she doesn't have a degree in either history or politics. I responded to her , not at all rudely or impolitely, that she started the political posting from day one as she was , quite understandably, (and I did say 'quite understandably' ) upset by the turn of events. I also pointed out that I don't have a history or politics degree but was just posting as a human being trying to understand. 2. Her response including her 'fuck offs' 'unfeeling men' 'I back the Canadian feminists' ' more fuck offs' 'your full of bullshit' 'Self righteousness' etc etc etc etc . In short her post was not only completely out of proportion to my original post to her and completely full of emotional crap. But hey ladies, that's ok isn't it? I mean she was only replying to a MAN. Why should she not be emotional and abusive huh? 3.I then replied with a short a post and admit I lost it. It was irrational and emotional. Now that ISN'T all right is it ladies? I mean I'm a man responding to a WOMAN. See the double standards in play here? Or maybe you don't. Whatever. I said to her in response ' Fuck you too' and 'Take your loopy fucking feminism and take it to some weird feminist cult meeting'. Not very nice I know. No excuse really but as I say it was an emotional response to an abusive emotional post.Actually, any women who actually KNOW me , also know I'm not really anti-feminist and ideed Cynthia and I have spoken in the past (more rationally) and reached agreement on the subject. 4. I then wrote my leaving post shortly after (still annoyed at her out and out RUDENESS and also upset by the continual 'anti American ' accusatory tone of the forum as a whole. So what do I say? 'Loopy feminist on one side and ultra-pax Americanas on the other'. But hey I'm not only a MAN , I'm not AMERICAN so I really don't have much legitimacy here ,according to some ,it seems. 5. In another rant from this great, loving rational feminist she then decides to protect her AMERICAN kids. It would be ok to NUKE some part of the planet. Presumably the fact that probably hundreds of thousands NON AMERICAN children would suffer as a result…….who cares eh? Again she's a woman so you all accept this irrational emotional outburst? Only MOLEY to her credit spoke against it. Of course Scott explained it all away. I wonder if he or anyone else would have explained away a post calling for someone to NUKE AMERICAN CHILDREN????? YOU TELL ME. Nota single person has bothered to post saying they thought Cynthias ORIGINAL post to me was disproportionate and uncalled for. Do 'feminists' protaganists have carte blance to post rude posts to a particular man or men in general? I guess so huh? Woe betide a reverse role situ though eh? According to Gerry her 'heartfelt ' posts are 'always' welcome. I never found her post to me 'welcome' Gerry. Francesca assures cynthia she'll email her. I hope not to say he deserved it…how dare he bother to think, feel and post political posts……he's a man. No , I don't think so Fran but I hope I'm not wrong about that. Abi also supports 'feminists'. What , no matter if they are just out and out, unjustifiably rude? Or is it ok because she was rude to a MAN ? Actually , I'm just clearing up loose ends here. I stand by my 'leaving' post . I really don't feel welcome here …..from the FA it seems, the feminists or the Americans. That's cool , I can live with it, don't worry about that. I think the whole tone is now partisan, emotional and anti-free speech. I'm quite attached to free speech for some reason and when it is freely spoken it's usually best to have rational, non-emotional responses to the speech. When it is PREDOMINANTLY irrational and emotional then it gets too much. Of course I'm not proposing we all become unfeeling robots or anything but balance is important. The balance has gone here IMO. There's 'n undercurrent that I find disturbing. Maybe I'm a' weirdo , out of step with the 'majority think' mode. So be it. I can say though, I've lost any sense of generally belonging to the 'expremie ' community. I never did consider it a cult-like community and I'm certain it isn't. Nevertheless, even as a loose gathering of like minded folks, I feel estranged from it. I really DON'T belong here. From now on I'm not going to think in terms of 'ex' 'prem' 'non-prem'……I'm going to relate to people as individuals. I'm sure there are open minded individuals in all camps and narrow-minded bigots in all camps. I actually really knew that but these last few weeks have brought it to the forefront. From now on I will respond purely INDIVIDUALLY whether one day I'm in a majority and another in a minority , will be the last of my concerns. What's that saying? TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:29:50 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: To the forum Message:

for what it's worth, Dermot, I know exactly what you are sensing, because it's all over the place, these days. I, too, am seeing it transparently. And I, too, am rearing and bucking at all the politically correct self censorship closing in. No way am I gonna let anyone step on my rights to free speech. I am me. it is quite impossible for me to be other than what I am. I have to say what i see, what i think, what i sense, what i know. If it doesnt sit well with the hearer, they had better remind themselves that by defending my right to say it and do it, I defend their rights at the same time. I can see the urge to turn and walk out. But that leaves the arena barren of the very thing that right is there to ensure. I was hoping you would stand on your views and say more. It keeps the vitality alive. for what it's worth, you aren't gonna see me going out and buying any american flags. I'm sick at the sight of them all. yesterday i went into a car dealership on main street and demanded an audience with the top man, and when i got him, i took him out front and pointed out the seven threadbare, soiled, tattered, torn,ancient american flags they had, flying over their garage, and gave him a stern lesson in the Respect For The Flag that I learned at age 6 in brownie scouts: the flag is never to touch the ground. The flag is never to be flown at night, after dark.. Not unless it is brightly lit. if it cannot be, it is lowered at sundown, folded meticulously, and stored with all care. In military camp, taps is sounded. the flag is never to be flown soiled, torn,rent,faded or in any other way desecrated. It is to be flown clean, intact, in full repair and in full colors, or not at all. a flag no longer fit to be flown is not to be chucked in the trash like common garbage. The correct disposal for a flag being retired is to lower it from the staff, fold it properly, lay it in a fresh fire and salute it until it has burned completely to ashes, and then what is left is to be laid in the ground and buried with as much honor as if a great general were being laid to rest, because the white stripes of that flag represent the bandages hastily torn and used to bind the bleeding wounds of soldiers in the field, and the red stripes represent the blood soaked bandages they generated while they fought, through the pain, and the blue field with white stars represent a land of true freedom, with nothing over anyone but the heavens above and the stars therein. When you lay that flag to rest, you are laying to rest all and every soldier and civilian who ever fought and bled to defend that freedom, and so you honor it as you do any person who did so. i told the fellow 'take them down. better to fly nothing at all, or one sound, new, bright,fresh flag, than seven desecrated ones.' he hastened to say 'new ones have been ordered'. I still repeated to him 'take those down, today, before sunset. to leave them as you have them is tantamount to stringing them up by nooses and leaving them twisting in the wind for all to sneer at. take them down. Better to have the poles empty until the new ones arrive. Better to have one good one than seven dead ones.' and he gulped. I burned a flag once, during the uproar in the 80's over it. I wanted to see for myself what i felt. guess what. tears came to my eyes. I reached out with my bare hands and put the flames out. but you wont see me buying any, or wearing any, or hanging any. i know too much. i refuse to be swept up in the fad. i frown on all these people sporting little plastic favors. I frown at all the flags getting lacerated as they get ripped thru the car airstream at 70mph down the freeway. How cheap. How ignorant. How unaware these so called patriots are. no. you wont be seeing me do that. they are late to the game. I knew this stuff 46 years ago and i still know it. and they don't. i'd rather wear bloody bandages and sleep under the open stars. i've always been someone who didnt fit in. groups dont like me. i usually end up with one forming around me, instead. not that i want one there. theres just one of me, and im it. i dont know how to be anyone else than me. and since i'[m the only one of me in existence, theres no comparison. if you want me, you gotta come to me for it. right? are you any different?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:52:21 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: To the forum..Yo Janet Message:

Hi Thanks for your long post. Your posts are often controversial and usually really interesting. The odd post of yours is actually BRILLIANT. The one I remember most is the long 'night cafe /catweasel (?) ' themed one of a few months back. Other times, I find I don't go along with a lot of what you say. No problem in that. It's good your peculiarly individual voice is here though and I'm sure many respect your insights and basic 'guts'. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:53:46 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: To the forum Ladies Message:

Dermot, I didn't delete any posts. I 'locked' some threads, that's all. Everything is still there. I relate to Cynthia. She had a nightmare childhood and so did I but not to the extent that she did. So I tend to cut her more slack because I see myself in her emotionality and immediacy. I wish you would stay. I stopped reading the political threads days ago, but from what little I read before then, I would probably take your side on many issues. Let me say that with a bit of reserve because I haven't read the threads and don't intend to do so. I don't think you are a 'weirdo' or even out of step. I'm sure many people share your opinion. You were valiant to hang in as long as you did against the 'professional' debaters. This is not intended as a pejurative against anyone, but I realized early on that even though I truly believe I am more correct in my world view than say, Scott or Jim, I don't have nearly their skills in debating and exposition. I am very sympathetic to feminism and I think that rudeness can come from anyone regardless of their beliefs. And occasional rudeness and shows of strong emotions doesn't necessarily mean the person is rude and overly emotional at the core. It's more situational. And I'll stopped now with the idea that Scott voice several days ago: I believe this all has more to do with the fact of thousands of bodies buried in a hole in NYC, than ideology.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:45:32 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: gerry Subject: No problem Gerry Message:

I,ve got everything off my chest and you always were (are) one of my fav posters. A sort of intelligent, insightful madness :) And yeah good for you for relating to Cybthia ...no problem. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:17:38 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Dermot Subject: oh dear.. Message:

had no idea that exchange had taken place. How messy. Sounds unpleasant for all. I'm a feminist and I don't hate men. I think the man hating feminist stereotype went out in the 70s didn't it? Feminism, like any other ideology or way of seeing the world is made up of lots of different people with lots of different points of view. We're all emotional and messy at times. Let's be kind to one another.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:36:26 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: oh dear..Yep, you're right Abi Message:

...I just wanted to state my case. Unpleasant for both sides, yep you're right. Time to forgive, forget and move on I guess. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:47:32 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The terror is over-done Message:

There's more chance of winning the lottery than being killed or even injured by terrorists. America is experiencing mass hysteria and I blame the mass media for that. The terrorists are not that bright or well equipped. The reason why the September 11th atrocities were able to happen was because there was extremely lax airport security in the USA. The terrorists can't make chemical or biological weapons that can affect cities - more like just a closed government building at the most. There is not going to be a world war. Can't you read the signs of the times? The world has no stomach for it. More likely the world will become a more co-operative enviroment with old grudges forgotten and new alliances forged. Look at old Putin. He's wanting to have friendly talks with NATO and doesn't see them as the threat any more. George W has indicated that the Palestinian/Israeli problem must now be solved once and for all and for good reason. I think you'll soon see that the nightmare that the mass media perpetrate just isn't going to happen. Don't bother to buy one of those chemical suits, it just wouldn't suit you.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:40:18 (EDT) From: Vera Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: The terror is under-done if anything Message:

Sir Dave said: 'The terrorists can't make chemical or biological weapons that can affect cities - more like just a closed government building at the most. There is not going to be a world war.' With all respect, UBL's al Queda network, and those networks affiliated with it, have quite likely got access to chemical weapons, and have definitely researched how to deliver them to cities. It's been officially acknowledged that only one such an attack could wipe out a million people - I'll dredge my memory banks for the reference if you want one. Re your point 2: the world war has begun - indeed it began, you could say, when UBL declared war on the US, formally and in writing, in 1996. The declaration is on his website still. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings: but I fear this one will be with us till the end of our lives - maybe the end of our children's lives too. Vera

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:41:41 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: The terror is over-done Message:

Yes, Dave, that is the truth but the attack came at a very bad time - just as the economy is taking a heavy fall. The dotcom industry has gone from bad to worse this year and the unemployment rate has shot up. Americans don't sleep enough as it is (6.5 hours average) and now many have insomnia. Sleep clinics are overwhelmed. Half of Gen X were dotcommies and they can't find jobs. Twelve famous restaurants in SF have closed in the past month. I have to refinance my house to keep going. Office space in downtown SF has a 15% vacancy rate. Tourism is non-existent. (UA is giving away free tickets to NY to try to stimulate the tourism industry.) People are depressed and the flu vaccines will be late this year. This winter is expected to be very gloomy. America the beautiful, free and happy isn't feeling very cheerful. I guess we will have to take lessons from you Brits on how to be stoical - a word seldom used here except by the Amish.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 23:49:25 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: outbreak Message:

let's hope dave is right... http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html [ outbreak ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:44 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: outbreak Message:

well that just made my day. anyone here read tom clancy's 'executive orders'. it plays out exactly like this is. starts with the hijacking of a plane and turning it into a missile that destroys the US capitol bldg, wiping out the supreme court, congress, the president and cabinet. proceeds to a muslim doctor in deep africa spiriting away a very sick nurse dissolving of ebola virus to a bunker in a terrorist supporting middle eastern nation. development of ebola as an aerosol and contagious infectant, hidden in shaving cream canisters, to pass customs. ten anonymous arab terrorists booking flights to the US, checking into ten different cities, ten different hotels, going to ten different trade conventions and casually wandering around until they decide on a nice spot in the ventilation system to unobtrusively release the valve on the shaving cream can and leave the show. days later, americans start to get sick. looks like the flu. gets worse. spouses catch it. the cdc figures it out. closes down the nation in quarantine. hospitals overloaded with isolation cases. all thats left for them to play out, now, is a bunch of assassination attempts on the presidents wife, kids, self. i wont spoil the ending. you should read it. there'll be no surprises after you have. you'll already know the script.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:43:00 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: outbreak Message:

Apparently this isn't 'hemorrhagic fever' as we've come to know it (ebola). It isn't communicable except through a vector (a tick). Nasty if you get it, but not much of a terrorist threat.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:26:05 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: outbreak Message:

well that just made my day. anyone here read tom clancy's 'executive orders'. it plays out exactly like this is. hijacking of a plane and turning it into a misslie that destroys the US capitol bldg. a muslim in deep africa spiriting away a nurse dissolving of ebola virus to a bunker in a terrorist supporting middle eastern nation. development of ebola as an aerosol and contagious infectant hidden in shaving cream canisters to pass customs. ten anonymous arab terrorists booking flights to the US, checking into ten different cities, ten different hotels, going to ten different trade conventions and casually wandering around until they decide on a nice spot in the ventilation system to unobtrusively release the valve on the shaving cream can and lever the show. days later, americans start to get sick. looks like the flu. gets worse. spouses catch it. the cdc figures it out. closes down the nation in quarantine. hospitals overloaded with isolation cases. all thats left is a bunch of assassination attempts on the presidents wife, kids, self. i wont spoil the ending. you should read it. there'll be no surprises after you have. you'll already know the script.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:05:56 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: outbreak Message:

The virus is widely distributed in the blood of sheep, cattle and other mammals across eastern Europe, Fortunately, not on my list of preferred snacks. From what I've heard hemmorhagic fever doesn't make a very good bio-weapon, because it immobilizes and kills so quickly that it doesn't spread very far. But just in case, I'm only eatin' corn flakes and tofu. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:46:32 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott, give peas a chance Message:

......or at least cabbages, broccoli and fruit. And brown rice - not enough real vitamins or good fiber in cornflakes and tofu. ;)

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:14:00 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Really? Over done? Message:

You wouldn't say that if you in New York at the time of the trade center bombings. You wouldn't say that if you saw the incinerated people who survived the Pentagon disaster. You wouldn't say that if night and day you have F-15's flying over your house. You wouldn't say that if you saw how your hospital is SCRAMBLING to put in place some disaster response to bio-terriosm. Just my percpective. Take it or leave it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:48:36 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: No wonder I always fall for nurses Message:

You're just so damn practical. Tonette. I could just squeeze you.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:38:19 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Yes, overdone Message:

London where I live has been terrorised by IRA bombing campaigns for two decades. We've had some massive bombs go off here. By the way, London is also a target for the Bin Laden terrorists. The terrorists want you to be afraid. They're amateurs though. They're crap. They got lucky and US intellegence needs to be put through the mill for missing that one. There has been terrorist attempts by them here and they are thwarted every time because they have no proper equipment or resources and leave too many trails. Look what has happened. People's darkest fears have been realised but it's highly unlikely that the terrorists will ever get that lucky again. Why haven't they followed up with a new attack? Because they're incompetent. Now they've played their ace, which was a once only thing, they're stuck on what to do next. They tried to crash a light aircraft packed with explosives into the G7/8 summit in Italy a few months ago and failed because they left too many trails and were caught by the Italian police. Sure terrorism is frightening but terrorists by their very nature are a bunch of wankers.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:51:15 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree Message:

If a corporation kept asking it's most highly-trained pros to kill themselves they'd be out of business pretty damn soon. Yep, thank god fanatical religious cultists are dumb. I can't resist this tease, Dave: Just like the CACroaches were dumb but they sure spooked you. Okay, I know it's unfair. They spooked you because of your kids.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:18:42 (EDT) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree Message:

Right, that's it - bend over and take six of the best. Trouble is, you might enjoy it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:10:53 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Yes, overdone Message:

All the same Dave, I don't think a wanker net would make me feel all that safe. You never know when someone might transform into a sly guy, just to slip through the holes in the net.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:04:19 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Hope so. Message:

Dave: I just don't see any hysteria, so am not sure what you perceive as the problem. I'm cautiously optimistic about the future, but it may be a matter of having looked into the abyss and 'got religion.' And I still think that mass terrorism is going to be a continuing problem for awhile, maybe quite awhile. As Alice Cooper says, 'The Devil's gettin' smarter every day.' Is it worse that what came before? How could it be worse than the Holocaust, Stalin's purges, Pol Pot's purges, or Rawanda? If we subside into complacency though, I don't think we'll have seen the worst. And there is still a *national* government out there that's been working on weaponizing these biologicals for some time, in secrecy. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:48:32 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: What I mean by hysteria Message:

By hysteria I mean fear based upon televised events which though terrible, do not mean that the watcher is in any danger, although they believe they are. I don't think it's worse than what came before in a global sense. Sure it's terrible if a loved one is killed by a terrorist attack but I can't see this leading to the kind of mass carnage of the two world wars or the million civilians slaughtered in Rawanda.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:50:01 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: What I mean by hysteria Message:

Several years ago they did a survey in a number of small towns in Iowa to find out what people were concerned about, and the top concern turned out to be 'crime in the streets.' The pollster couldn't quite grasp what was going on so he went back and asked 'What crime; in what streets?' Turns out they were concerned about the crime in the streets of Chicago, because that's what they saw on the news every night. Anyway, I don't know anyone who's buying any gas masks or digging any bomb shelters, which sounds like stuff that we did in the 50s and 60s. Turns out those bomb shelters were great places for nooky. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:24:10 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Hope so. Message:

Yes right Scott . One day at a time . When the decision is taken to park SH in the dustbin of history we'll be looking back on these days as halcyon.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:26:38 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Oh please Cynthia... Message:

I am less educated and articulate than you and I want to post here...don't desert the cause. Peg

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:56:43 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: My Biggest Mistake Here... Message:

Cynthia: I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO. Geez. All I can say. Who hasn't felt that way in the past three weeks? But it takes a child to say what the child feels. Have you seen the cover of Time Magazine? There's a whole article about what products to buy for protection against bio-chemical warfare--and what works and what doesn't. Well I figure life's not so damn precious that I want to go to those lengths to protect it, especially if it involves living that way indefinitely. Better to leave it to others. I'm really leary of tall buildings though, because I hate the idea of being buried alive. About that idea of starting another planet... --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:00:27 (EDT) From: Moley Email: moldy_warp@hotmail,com To: Cynthia Subject: What Cynthia!!!!! Message:

Cynthia, you said I am a proud American. If nuking the whole area wouldn't start WWIII, and destroy the planet, I say, hell, nuke the whole area and that will be that. I am angry and terrorized. I do want revenge. What area are you talking about for christ-sake? And, I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO. Half a million Afghan die every year before they reach their fifth birthdays. What are you talking about, You don't sound much like a woman to me. Moley ( who has 4 children - unfortunately non of them are American).

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:24:45 (EDT) From: maybe Email: None To: Moley Subject: if your children WERE americans... Message:

...you would FEEL what Cynthia is saying, instead of being strictly academic and PC in trying to understand what she said. But then, maybe you and Nigel are just BETTER than the rest of us.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:38:51 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: maybe Subject: It's not just about Americans Message:

Apparently the Montreal subway system bomb scare in 1998 has been linked to bin Laden through the Tafir wal Hirja group, along with threats from the World Islamic Front to blow up the Molson Centre during a hockey game, among other places.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:23:30 (EDT) From: Moley Email: None To: maybe Subject: Re: if your children WERE americans... Message:

I don't know who you are. So you think it is 'academic' to object to the 'nuking' of an unspecified area, children 'n all, do you... eh??? Well in that case, I'll side with academia anytime. FEELING = dropping nukes - yeh - brilliant!!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 19:20:30 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Moley Subject: It's academic. Message:

And, I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO. Half a million Afghan die every year before they reach their fifth birthdays. What are you talking about, You don't sound much like a woman to me. Cynthia made the observation above in order to describe her helplessness, as best she could. (And a pretty damn good description it was, too.) She broached the subject of wanting to nuke Afghanistan in order do describe her terror (which she pointed out in no uncertain terms). You've been hanging around the hallowed halls too long if *I* understand the language of feelings better than you. FEELING = dropping nukes - yeh - brilliant!!! In academe this is called 'specification error.' Not Cynthia's. Yours. There's a missing dependent variable. Take another look. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:40:32 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Moley Subject: Re: if your children WERE americans... Message:

and I'm with you on this one, Moley. Hope you're well - the new homeopathic approach I'm following is working more wonders! :) Anna

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:24:07 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: P.S. It IS About Me and Maharaji... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:42:18 (EDT) From: Gerry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I'm deleting this thread Message:

as long as no-one objects too strenuously. I can't see the benefit and I don't want more hurt feelings here. Now everyone kiss and make up.

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:48:21 (EDT) From: Moley Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:59:14 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Moley Subject: Re: Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? Message:

No I don't think gifls can handle it. But that really depends on the definition of 'it.' And 'gifls' come to think of it... But seriously, I have a soft spot for abuse survivors like Cynthia and perhaps I'm being overly protective if not damn near paternalistic. Is yours a "strenuous" objection? PS the next day...it was a dumb impulse to want to delete the thread, I'm glad I did not, and I apologize for saying it.

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