Bjørn E -:- Hi Pam (Is a tiny curse in Church OK?) -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:21:16 (EDT)

hamzen -:- e-mail address for epo? jhb? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:45:11 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Re: e-mail address for epo? jhb? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:06:04 (EDT)

don -:- björns post on LG -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:27:48 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: björns post on LG -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:54:21 (EDT)

Guy Rollins -:- Chai? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:49:40 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Chaieeeeeeeeeee. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:34:58 (EDT)

__ __ Suedoula -:- Does it work with soymilk? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:14:34 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- PS. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:46:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Anth's chai's awful -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I dunno... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:08:09 (EDT)

__ janet -:- Re: Chai-here ya go -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:10:14 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Chai? few hints -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:55:44 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Chai? and if you like it piquant... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:56:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- FA - lock this thread because -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:34:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Dave, you need a cup of tea... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:28:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Extra kick -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:24:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- P.S. Forgot the ginger -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:03 (EDT)

btdt -:- THEN LET'S DO IT!!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:22:13 (EDT)

__ P.S. -:- real name -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:38:06 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Ta da, for your bravery! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:39:46 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- Uhhh, I hate to play into Jim's hands here but ... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:36:35 (EDT)

__ __ Vicki -:- see my p.s. post -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:41:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Congratulations -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:49:30 (EDT)

gerry -:- 11,000 page views in last 30 hours NT -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:45 (EDT)

__ Zelda -:- 11,000 page views- what do you mean? [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:25:17 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Re: 11,000 page views- what do you mean? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:30:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: 11,000 page views! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:34:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- bet it was 'Pam's report -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:05:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- No, it's the Chai thread. (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:31:21 (EDT)

Loaf -:- The single minded trap -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:11 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Re: The single minded trap -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:26:28 (EDT)

__ __ Loaf -:- Re: The single minded trap -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:19:08 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- GREAT post, Loafie! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:40:53 (EDT)

Jean Paul -:- Question to Pat Conlon -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:38:35 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Hi, Jean-Paul -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:00 (EDT)

__ __ Jean Paul -:- Re: Hi, Patl -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:20:36 (EDT)

gerry -:- Dear Pam, your NB was NB'd -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:29:18 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Gerry could you change the text please -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:02:58 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Yup, that's a good idea -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:29:31 (EDT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Flame free or hot? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:19:34 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- sanjay dewan...???? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:24:43 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: sanjay dewan...???? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:06 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Ok, thanks J-M... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 21:58:48 (EDT)

__ [Blank] -:- Re: sanjay dewan...???? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:05:24 (EDT)

Pam -:- 'my memoirs' -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:54:30 (EDT)

__ PC -:- It is you Jim? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:47 (EDT)

__ __ don -:- Re: It is you Jim? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:09:09 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Peter, your head is up your arse. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:56:39 (EDT)

__ __ Know It All -:- Fictitious people -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:34 (EDT)

__ PC -:- It is you Jim? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:12 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- why is that funny to you???????????? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:09:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: why is that funny to you? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Selene- btdt/vicki quote from below -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:54:47 (EDT)

__ Elaine -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:20:12 (EDT)

__ __ Stonor -:- Hi Elaine! (ot) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:58:54 (EDT)

__ Chuck S. -:- Anonymity and Comfort Zones... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:33 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Good post, Chuck [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:00:03 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- ELOQUENT, my dear, simply eloquent!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:54:57 (EDT)

__ Been There -:- Pam: A few questions -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:06:32 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Been There - Read Abi's post below! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ Been There -:- To JHB: I'm speechless -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Okay, PAM, I apologize -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- One HUGE point of disagreement -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:14:38 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Well said, Francesca [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:34:26 (EDT)

__ Tonette -:- Thank you! Another chapter -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:11:24 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Thank you, Pam -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:41:24 (EDT)

__ janet -:- ***best of forum*** -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:54:53 (EDT)

__ don -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:34:23 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Flawed logic. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:35:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ don -:- Re: Flawed logic. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:04:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- There will be no whitewash in the shitehouse. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:20 (EDT)

__ Yves et Danielle ARGANT -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 08:57:11 (EDT)

__ __ Nick -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:59:20 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Yves et Danielle -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:36:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- I translated Combat magazine.. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:00:31 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:40:04 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Excellent post Pam -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:51:15 (EDT)

__ Patrick Wilson -:- My reaction and further comment... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:50:37 (EDT)

__ __ hamzen -:- Re Indian languages ex-premie sites?Pat C? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:59:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re Indian languages ex-premie sites? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:12:53 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Just answer the questions ma'am. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:25:14 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:17:31 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:36:12 (EDT)

__ __ don chauvi -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:39:02 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:51:12 (EDT)

__ __ CW -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:39:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ bob -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:32:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Asst FA -:- Things change? No, only aliases -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:36:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Things change? No, only aliases -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:22:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Woddyathinkcat? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:45:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Anth you forgot a couple og things -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:08:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Anth you forgot a couple og things -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:04:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Cat, hang on a minute. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:42:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Hey Cat, hang on a minute. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- What about my question Cat? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:39:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Sometimes you almost sound human but... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:24:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- He is human Pat. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:52:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Sometimes you almost sound human but... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:29:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Only 'mildly innaccurate' eh Cat -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:33:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Of course premies say EV is only Maya! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:54:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Not so -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:37:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: Not so -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 08:11:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Not so -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:15:13 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Underwhelmed? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:34:55 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:34:20 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Thanks Pam -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:32:16 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- ANOTHER BEST, BEST OF FORUM!!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:39:37 (EDT)

__ __ bob -:- Re: ANOTHER BEST, BEST OF FORUM!!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:13:38 (EDT)

__ Jim S. -:- Required reading for all... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:23:11 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:14:38 (EDT)

__ A Friend -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:02:36 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Whoever you are -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:01:37 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- not a cow shits? ha :) -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:49:02 (EDT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: not a cow shits? ha :) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:12:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- I see your point -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:39:48 (EDT)

__ JHB (EPO Webmaster) -:- Could you email me please? -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:31:16 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- A small disagreement and an agreement -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:24:09 (EDT)

__ Susan -:- thank you thank you -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:22:38 (EDT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: thank you thank you -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:08:21 (EDT)

__ Mr. Dooley -:- Simply the BEST thing ever written here [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:37:34 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- What an amazingly excellent post! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:19:50 (EDT)

__ __ Barbara -:- Totally Outstanding...Just Amazing... -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:51:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: Totally Outstanding...Just Amazing... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:15:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Applause, applause! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:00:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Applause, applause! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:08:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ***Applause! Applause! BTDT!! BEST OF*** -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 22:12:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Excellent both of you, Cynth and Vicki -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:13:48 (EDT)

Jim -:- What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:00:22 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Hear, hear! Jim and Steve Quint -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:23:51 (EDT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Re: Hear, hear! Jim and Steve Quint -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:04:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Fear of airing thing in public, huh??? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:03:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Fran -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:14:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You refuse to get it -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:43:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Fran, YOU don't get it, I/m afraid -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:52:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You're assuming a lot -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:57:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ Moley -:- Steve - you would have had my vote -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:54:54 (EDT)

__ FA, Recent Exes -:- Re: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 00:29:00 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- So, what's your name? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:27:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Peg -:- reasons for hiding! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:00:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Pat's in a bad mood today Peg. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:46:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Peg, see what I say about this -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:04:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS Peg, I just answered your email -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:19:29 (EDT)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:52:09 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- Re: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:59:40 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Well said, Selene. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:33:19 (EDT)

__ Zelda -:- re Steve -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:25:05 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Hear! Hear! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 02:59:32 (EDT)

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:21:16 (EDT) From: Bjørn E Email: None To: All Subject: Hi Pam (Is a tiny curse in Church OK?) Message:

When I noticed that you had posted, and I saw the responses, I thought, “Hey, here are some juicy stuff”. But I was a bit disappointed. Several times your friend Anth has told about your coming. Whenever I read posts, I kind of smell. Somehow I can sense where someone is coming from. Sometimes I read people’s posts and “smell” they are sincere or at least they believe what they write. Sometimes I feel people are lying. Sometimes I even feel that some PWKs are not really honest. Yesterday I read your post. . I find you sincere in the sense that you believes in what you writes. But that doesn’t make me believe everything you writes. When I read your post, one thing strikes me. And this thing, in my perspective is the same with a lot of exes. Their involvement in Knowledge was based on their belief and not on their experience. I have read lots and lots of testimonials of exes. In fact I am sorry to say this, I have not yet found anyone really inspired, inspirational – or happy. That is when I read between the lines. I noticed that you (and exes) try to tell that things become better when you leave. I find this quite natural. They have been involved for “wrong reasons”; i.e. believing M is LOTU, believing that M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth or whatever. And some people have been into a power trip or a competition race to stay closest to M. But in your post, Pam, I did not find any statements that you ever enjoyed the experience of Knowledge. And when some people are leaving M, it is IMO like getting new clothes, because the old ones (and the lies to one self) stink. I have expressed this before, by saying that when people are confused, any decision will feel like a relief. The sad thing about this is the tendency to create a new “religion”- “let us save all the people who still THINK they enjoy Life and like M”. I think those people never asked to be saved. I wonder, where you were when M in the “cleaning up process”, asked every PWK in positions to reconsider their involvement? I am not a Pam. I am a “small guy” in EV. I am not a “church lady”. Am I a “gentleman of the church”? I don’t think so. In fact, I like to be a bit naughty and even curse a bit in a church. I even like when other people curse in a church. Maybe that is a reason why I for 25 years was not given an “important” position – even if believe it or not, I have some talents and gifts. I have to give you credit for one thing you mention: The “secrecy issue”. Last year, as the representative of Norway, I was asked to attend a “conference call”. When we were told not to take notes, and not reveal any of those things we heard to anyone, I felt 2 reactions. First I felt “honoured” because finally I would hear some of the secrets behind the scene. Secondly, I felt a bit confused, what was the reason for me to listen, when I was supposed not to tell anyone else about what I heard. So at FC, I wrote to John Mc “something” (the Irish guy who had the call), and asked about my concerns. I told him that I did not find anything in my perspective that could be a potential danger to tell any other person about. I also told him that some years ago, I wrote a letter to M. In this letter, (I tried not to complain, but I described how it feels like when you have been working on an “urgent” project, even through the night to complete it, and then there is no response from the “leaders of EV in my country”.). I also told M, that it indeed feels very strange when the organisers in my country came home from conferences with M, and they had a secret smile on their face, but they never told anything about what M said. What happened some weeks after this was interesting? (If it happened because of my letter to M, I dont know) Because suddenly, the top EV guy in my country called me, and said that M would have a international conference in the upcoming Long Beach program, and that M wanted to invite all people to this conference who were the “backbones of the communities” BTW, John replied, and said it was Ok for me to tell others about what I heard. But since then, I have not been keen on attending conference calls. As I see it, “secrecy” gives strength to those who are in power. And I see that this is changing in EV. And it kind of dawns upon me; “What secrets are not yet revealed” To me it seems like the average ex, know the brand of Ms toilet paper so to speak. I am by nature quite sceptical. I believe in what I see. One thing I find funny in your post is how you describe instructors or mahatmas. When I stumbled over the gates at Prem Nagar, once in the late autumn of 72, I was told that mahatmas were great souls. After a week or so, I discovered that some PWKs, were more inspired. So I figured that mahatmas were just ordinary human beings, who had been given the responsibility on behalf of M to reveal Knowledge. I figured that what happened in 74? When this mahatma smashed a hammer in the head of a person that this fact would load and clear tell everyone that mahatmas are very ordinary people. I have also met some “instructors”. Some of those are pretty common IMO. So in the midst of the waves of the big sea, I try to cling to one simple formula. That is to recognize the gift of Knowledge so I may understand the gift of Life and for this I find my master inspiring. A few days ago, I listened to a program by M. I have to tell, I am proud of him. Every sentence he uttered, was dedicated to inspire me to enjoy the gift of Life. If that fact makes a reason for some people to dislike him, so be it. I think he should be credited for that. I could address a lot of things you write. I happen to believe you are for real, you are a middle aged woman, probably unmarried and you see that your involvement has brought you nowhere, Probably you are a nice personality, but I sense that there is not exactly a cue in front of your tent. And I think you are the friend of Anth – if so, he spoke of you several times. If I am wrong I apologize. When you write; “M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion. “ I think anyone who really have found something in his or her inner landscape at all, will strongly disagree with you about this. (Even every so-called “enlightened soul” in the history of mankind, I think would say you missed something big.) And when you describe meditation – the ear part -, I realize we our perspectives of meditation differ with “light years”. So if you want to advice people in matters regarding the “inner self”, I think you should not give up your day job. Why am I still involved in M and his Knowledge? Because I enjoy Knowledge and enjoy listen to M. In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel I am given 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. In fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or there is one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful. So, if you happen to follow Ms advice, “If you don’t like it, please leave”, I think that is good for you. But never try to say to me; I should leave, because you did find what you were searching for. Because what I found, brings me at least some joy every day. And I am always very sceptical to people who talk shit about other persons behind their back. Even if they don’t mention the names of those they talk about. And especially when they are anonymous. So take care and whatever you do, at least try to enjoy your journey. Life is too great, to spend moaning and groaning about other people. Best regards Bjørn (a 'flawed character' who was allowed to post by Gerry) .

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:45:11 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: All Subject: e-mail address for epo? jhb? Message:

John, I can't find an e-mail link for you/admin at epo.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:06:04 (EDT) From: JHB Email: jhb@ex-premie.org To: hamzen Subject: Re: e-mail address for epo? jhb? Message:

or webmaster@ex-premie.org. Simple really, and the Feedback link on just about every page seems to work quite well:-) John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:27:48 (EDT) From: don Email: None To: All Subject: björns post on LG Message:

I thought this is a sensible post that everyone should read: (Previous Message) (Next Message) (Next Thread) (View Entire Thread) (Message List) Posted: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:10:08 (EDT) Original: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:52:25 (EDT) Posted by: Bjørn E Recipient: gerry Subject: Hi Gerry Message: When I read posts, I kind of smell. Somehow I can sense where someone is coming from. Sometimes I read people’s posts and they are sincere or at least they believe what they write. Sometimes I feel some people are lying. Even PWK's. But I thank you for your post and concern. Yesterday I read the post of Pam. I find her sincere in the sense that she believes in what she writes. But that doesn’t make me believe everything she writes. When I read her post, one thing strikes me. And this thing, in my perspective is the same with a lot of exes. Their involvement in Knowledge was based on their belief and not on their experience. I have read lots and lots of testimonials of exes. In fact I am sorry to say this, I have not yet found anyone really inspired – or happy. (Even not you Katie Darling my old friend – “Happy-EX”) I noticed that Pam (and exes) try to tell that things become better when they leave. I find this quite natural. They have been involved for “wrong reasons”; i.e. believing M is LOTU, believing that M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth or whatever. And some people are into a power trip. In Pam’s post I did not find any statements that she ever enjoyed the experience of Knowledge. So leaving is IMO like getting new clothes, because the old ones (and the lies to one self) stink. I have expressed this before, by saying that when people are confused, any decision will feel like a relief. That sad thing about this, is the new “religion”- “let us save all the people who still THINK they enjoy”. I think those people never asked to be saved. I am not a Pam. I am a “small guy” in EV. I am not a “church lady”. Am I a “gentleman of the church”? I don’t think so. In fact, I like to be a bit naughty and even curse a bit in a church. I even like when other people curse n a church. Maybe that is a reason why I for 25 years was not given an “important” position – even if believe it or not, I have some talents and gifts. At least that is what my theraphst tells me. Yet I am involved. Why? Because I enjoy Knowledge and enjoy listen to M. In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel he has handed me a 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. I fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful. I recently decided not to post anymore. That was from personal reasons as I found the price too high. The main reasons were 2 things. First I realized there is a total waste of time to argue with people who are dishonest. I got another proof of that, when someone I “discussed” with, lied about 2 things, and even if I gave a chance for the person to correct his proven lies, he has chosen not to. In fact he made another lie, when I stopped posting. Yesterday, I posted at the F7. I have made a deal with you Gerry not to post there. So I asked for your permission to post a more or less OT next week. (It would be about justice and some thoughts). Maybe will do that, maybe will post one post to Pam later today. I’ll chew on it. The thread was deleted, but I noticed before the post was deleted, Anth and Cynthia replied and actually both asked for Gerry not to allow me to post there. Anth said I just would bring myself into trouble, but I found most interesting to read Cynthia’s comments. She said the moment she saw Abi posting, she knew 'Bjorn' would post. Actually Cynthia, the opposite is the case, because I kind of sensed what would follow. (Sometimes I wonder if I am a bit clairvoyant). And I did not want to be “involved”. Why? Because this case makes me depressed, the reason is a mixture of what I know and have witnessed, and also the fact that I was sexually abused as a kid. When someone at F7 discussed my stopping posting, , they said something like someone had touched some sore points in me. In one way they were correct, but don’t think they knew my real reasons. My nature is quite sceptical. I believe in what I see. One thing I find funny in Pam’s post, is how he describes instructors or mahatmas. When I came to Prem Nagar, once in the late autumn of 72, I was told that mahatmas were great souls. After a week, I discovered that some PWKs, were more inspired. So I figured that mahatmas were just ordinary human beings, who had been given the responsibility on behalf of M to reveal Knowledge. I figured that what happened in 74? when this mahatma smashed a hammer in the head of a person that this fact would load and clear tell everyone that mahatmas are very ordinary people. I have also met some “instructors”. Some of those are pretty common IMO. So in the midst of this and what happens, is that I try to cling to one simple formula. That is to recognize the gift of Knowledge so I may understand the gift of Life and for this I find my master inspiring. A few days ago, I listened to a program by M. I have to tell, I am proud of him. Every sentence he uttered, was dedicated to inspire me to enjoy the gift of Life. If that is a reason for people to dislike him, so be it. I probably will not post anymore. Enjoying Life is much more fun. Bjørn a “flawed” character who is what he is. Your Name: Subject: Your Email: Quoted Message: When I read posts, I kind of smell. Somehow I can sense where someone is coming from. Sometimes I read people’s posts and they are sincere or at least they believe what they write. Sometimes I feel some people are lying. Even PWK's. But I thank you for your post and concern. Yesterday I read the post of Pam. I find her sincere in the sense that she believes in what she writes. But that doesn’t make me believe everything she writes. When I read her post, one thing strikes me. And this thing, in my perspective is the same with a lot of exes. Their involvement in Knowledge was based on their belief and not on their experience. I have read lots and lots of testimonials of exes. In fact I am sorry to say this, I have not yet found anyone really inspired – or happy. (Even not you Katie Darling my old friend – “Happy-EX”) I noticed that Pam (and exes) try to tell that things become better when they leave. I find this quite natural. They have been involved for “wrong reasons”; i.e. believing M is LOTU, believing that M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth or whatever. And some people are into a power trip. In Pam’s post I did not find any statements that she ever enjoyed the experience of Knowledge. So leaving is IMO like getting new clothes, because the old ones (and the lies to one self) stink. I have expressed this before, by saying that when people are confused, any decision will feel like a relief. That sad thing about this, is the new “religion”- “let us save all the people who still THINK they enjoy”. I think those people never asked to be saved. I am not a Pam. I am a “small guy” in EV. I am not a “church lady”. Am I a “gentleman of the church”? I don’t think so. In fact, I like to be a bit naughty and even curse a bit in a church. I even like when other people curse n a church. Maybe that is a reason why I for 25 years was not given an “important” position – even if believe it or not, I have some talents and gifts. At least that is what my theraphst tells me. Yet I am involved. Why? Because I enjoy Knowledge and enjoy listen to M. In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel he has handed me a 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. I fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful. I recently decided not to post anymore. That was from personal reasons as I found the price too high. The main reasons were 2 things. First I realized there is a total waste of time to argue with people who are dishonest. I got another proof of that, when someone I “discussed” with, lied about 2 things, and even if I gave a chance for the person to correct his proven lies, he has chosen not to. In fact he made another lie, when I stopped posting. Yesterday, I posted at the F7. I have made a deal with you Gerry not to post there. So I asked for your permission to post a more or less OT next week. (It would be about justice and some thoughts). Maybe will do that, maybe will post one post to Pam later today. I’ll chew on it. The thread was deleted, but I noticed before the post was deleted, Anth and Cynthia replied and actually both asked for Gerry not to allow me to post there. Anth said I just would bring myself into trouble, but I found most interesting to read Cynthia’s comments. She said the moment she saw Abi posting, she knew 'Bjorn' would post. Actually Cynthia, the opposite is the case, because I kind of sensed what would follow. (Sometimes I wonder if I am a bit clairvoyant). And I did not want to be “involved”. Why? Because this case makes me depressed, the reason is a mixture of what I know and have witnessed, and also the fact that I was sexually abused as a kid. When someone at F7 discussed my stopping posting, , they said something like someone had touched some sore points in me. In one way they were correct, but don’t think they knew my real reasons. My nature is quite sceptical. I believe in what I see. One thing I find funny in Pam’s post, is how he describes instructors or mahatmas. When I came to Prem Nagar, once in the late autumn of 72, I was told that mahatmas were great souls. After a week, I discovered that some PWKs, were more inspired. So I figured that mahatmas were just ordinary human beings, who had been given the responsibility on behalf of M to reveal Knowledge. I figured that what happened in 74? when this mahatma smashed a hammer in the head of a person that this fact would load and clear tell everyone that mahatmas are very ordinary people. I have also met some “instructors”. Some of those are pretty common IMO. So in the midst of this and what happens, is that I try to cling to one simple formula. That is to recognize the gift of Knowledge so I may understand the gift of Life and for this I find my master inspiring. A few days ago, I listened to a program by M. I have to tell, I am proud of him. Every sentence he uttered, was dedicated to inspire me to enjoy the gift of Life. If that is a reason for people to dislike him, so be it. I probably will not post anymore. Enjoying Life is much more fun. Bjørn a “flawed” character who is what he is. Your Reply: Textless Message? NoYes Quote message in Reply? NoYes Admin Post? (Admins Only) Yes: Password: This Entire Thread: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- .. gerry to bjorn Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:52:25 (EDT) . Bjørn E Hi Gerry Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:10:08 (EDT) . CD Re: to perspective Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:39:53 (EDT) . gerry Re: to perspective Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:52:57 (EDT) . CD Re: to perspective Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:13:32 (EDT) . Dermot I like that Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:57:29 (EDT) --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- (Previous Message) (Next Message) (Next Thread) (View Entire Thread) (Message List) (Administration) Forum Owners Only --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- HotBoards.Com 1.0 Message Forums Copyright 1999-2000 Cyber Concepts, Inc. All rights reserved.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:54:21 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: don Subject: Re: björns post on LG Message:

Bjorn says 'In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel he has handed me a 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. I fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful.' 'Inspiration and clatity' is great....but looking for someone else to provide them is exactly the problem. As long as you look for someone else you are avoiding reading the book of your own life, abrogating the responsibility if you like. This endless routine of wanting to have 'the experience' is what blocks us from tasting freedom. There will remain the 'I' that wants and the thing to be attained. The vastness of life comes when self-interest is in abeyance...notice how it comes unexpected and uncalled for...no method no master and no desire. This treadmill of seeking peace, contentment, and satisfaction rather than observing what actually is going on is what Gurus and Masters feed on. That is why M is fairly obviously discontented in his own life. The pupil makes an idiot of the master and vice versa. I can hear myself speaking in Bjorn's post (20 years ago) and can palpably relive the duality that us poor premies used to go through. Remember those Satsangs 'One part of me wants to serve Guru Maharaji and the other part......' Anyway best wishes to you Bjorn Tim

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:49:40 (EDT) From: Guy Rollins Email: guy@architx.com To: All Subject: Chai? Message:

Does anyone have a good chai recipe? How many cardaman seeds.... I'd appreciate it -- more now than I used to in the ashram days. If you would email me directly that would be helpful. Thanks in advance...hope this isn't too LITE for EPO.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:34:58 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: Chaieeeeeeeeeee. Message:

This should make about 3 mugs of chai. Put 4 or 5 cardomons and 3 or 4 slices of fresh ginger in 1 - 2 mugs of cold water and boil them for a minute or two in an open saucepan. Add a couple of black tea bags and boil for a further minute or so. Don't use loose tea unless you put it in a metal container or tie it up in a bit of cloth, like they do in India. Add a generous amount of white sugar (chinny) and boil for another minute or so. Add 1 - 2 mugs of fresh, whole milk. Bring the chai to the boil. Let it rise to the top of the pan, then remove from heat and let it go down. Boil it up to the top of the pan twice more, then decant to mug. Take the tea bags out before you pour, otherwise they get in the way. Careful, it's hot. You can play around with adding things like aniseed, vanilla, or whatever, to your taste. If you make tea for a vacuum flask, it always has a strange taste it picks up from the flask. If you make chai instead, you lose that 'flasky taste'. Anth the PG Tips.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:14:34 (EDT) From: Suedoula Email: None To: AJW Subject: Does it work with soymilk? Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:46:47 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: AJW Subject: PS. Message:

This is my favorite type of thread. Maybe we could start a Recent Exes Recipe Swapping Forum. Nice friendly recipes, but no flambes. Anth, the burnt out poached egg.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:51 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth's chai's awful Message:

Cinnamon and a touch of vanilla makes it sweeter.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:08:09 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I dunno... Message:

you invite these foreign bastards round to your house, they eat all your curry, drink all your wine, kip on your sofa, 'borrow' half your cassette collection, tell you you're their best friend in the whole wide world. Then the next thing is, they're stabbing you in the back on the internet, betraying confidences, creating scandal, and sullying your good name to all and sundry. Anth, where's me Harry Potter book? I'm depressed.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:10:14 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: Re: Chai-here ya go Message:

hi guy. where ya been lately? you should pop in more often! chai--you start with milk in a pot and heat it but not let it get to boiling. a double boiler with water in the bottom one and the milk in the upper one keeps it from getting any hotter than 212°. You use black tea, either in bags or loose, as strong as you like it. some like it stiff, some like it mild. a heaping tablespoon per cup, and one extra for the pot, is the usual rule of thumb. as for the spicing, you can buy ready mixed chai herbs in the health food stores, in bags you can steep in regular boiled tea water, if you're on the go, and just put the milk in like youdo to coffee or regular tea, after it's steeped. but if you're making it from scratch, you can use the bags and tear them open into the pot. again--one bag per cup you're making. a cup is 8 ounces, so 2 bags for 16 oz, 3 for 24 , 4 to a quart. 8 is 2 quarts, 16 is a gallon. you can do the math from there. you can be finicky and measure, or do it by feel and instinct. remember--traditional--hot milk, put in tea and spices after hot, strain out to serve and drink. --- modern fast paced --- , microwave a cup of water, drop in tea bag, add milk and sweetening after steeped. hope dat helps. i missed chai too. it was nice finding it again, minus the froufrou and all the ridiculous ritual.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:55:44 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Guy Rollins Subject: Re: Chai? few hints Message:

Also use vanilla, cinnamon, ginger ....

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:56:27 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Chai? and if you like it piquant... Message:

...add one clove per cup and a pinch of cayenne. Cardamon, ginger, cinnamon and clove are the basics. I like J-M's touch of vanilla but prefer rose or almond oil. The cayenne is for palates jaded by chillie peppers. Remember to make notes of your formulas...er...recipes....so that you can improve it each time to suit your taste by adjusting the quantities. If you make it with boiling water instead of milk then it's best to add either half-and-half or whipping cream or, as is commonly done in Indian households, sweetened condensed milk. It's luxurious to top it off with a bit of rose flavored whipped cream but decadent Indian matriarchs prefer dollops of ghee. Of course you could simply buy ''Bengal Spice'' tea....that commercial thingy and add a dollop of brandy or a liqueur to get rid of the commercial vibrations but it is essential to drink it with ladus...remember those ladus...or was it camel dung?....I forget. ;)

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:34:39 (EDT) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: FA - lock this thread because Message:

I suddenly feel that I can't express myself here with all these off topic posts.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:28:05 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: Dave, you need a cup of tea... Message:

...take 4 cardomons, 3 or 4 slices of ginger, two tea bags, 1000mg of Lysergic Acid, I tab of ecstasy, a tablespoon of Marmite, 10 grams of good hash, 2 oz of butter, and a 6v battery. Anth with another PG Tip.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:24:54 (EDT) From: Vicki Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: Extra kick Message:

My Indian friends add only cardamon, sugar, lemon grass and white pepper! It has such a punch that I'm sure any virus is instantly anhiliated (sp). The tea at the Indian shops is stronger than ordinary stuff, and seems to give it a more robust flavor. My favorite restaurant adds a bit of fennel. But the main trick is the boiling of the milk, it brings out the sweetness.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:03 (EDT) From: Vicki Email: None To: Vicki Subject: P.S. Forgot the ginger Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:22:13 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: THEN LET'S DO IT!!! Message:

Hey everyone, Abi said a foundation for helping kids abused by cults is a good idea (see thread below, I don't know how to bring it up). There is so much intelligence and capability here on this forum to tap into legalities and monies. This would give her a respected avenue to address all the sordid things done to children and provide help. We can do the grunt the work and let Abi take it in whatever way she feels is the most dignified and healing. Ya all ready for something real to happen?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:38:06 (EDT) From: P.S. Email: None To: btdt Subject: real name Message:

I will no longer be posting under'btdt' but will use my real name which is Vicki.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:39:46 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: P.S. Subject: Ta da, for your bravery! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:36:35 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: btdt Subject: Uhhh, I hate to play into Jim's hands here but ... Message:

Dear btdt, You are posting on this Forum anonymously. That's all well and good if that's what you need to do. But how can you talk about such grandiose plans when we don't even know who you are? Do you have any idea what it takes to start a foundation? How many hours of work, and infusions of capital, fundraising, etc.? Foundations are usually formed around at least one person who practically dedicates their life to the cause. P.S. Jim and Pat :C), I do see your point somewhat on the anonymous issue. Bests, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:41:39 (EDT) From: Vicki Email: None To: Francesca Subject: see my p.s. post Message:

Perfectly understandable. I have fully extricated myself from all Elan Vital duties and therefore, hip hip horray for me, I feel comfortable using my own name. Yes, I do understand what is involved in starting a foundation. A lot of hard work, for starters. But can you think of a more worthwhile cause? I personally can't stand the fact that money I gave m and ev helped fly this vulture around the world to commit these crimes.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:49:30 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Congratulations Message:

Vicki, I did not mean to imply that you should come 'out' until it was the proper time for you, only that it's hard to do 'real' work in the world while we remain anonymous. I had no idea you were in the extrication process. Congratulations, my dear. I have been out for years but have folks that are still 'in.' Certainly hindered my exit process, because it is hard to think of how wrong the whole thing is when folks you love are still so enamored of the whole thing. But it was a good thing. At some point, I need to think for myself, as Chuck S. said so eloquently below, without needing validation from others. Conversely, I can still think that something is total horshite and love people who can't see it my way. Best wishes to you, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:45 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: 11,000 page views in last 30 hours NT Message:

Hmmm

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:25:17 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: gerry Subject: 11,000 page views- what do you mean? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:30:01 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Re: 11,000 page views- what do you mean? Message:

"Page views" are the industry standard for setting advertising rates. It's the number of times a page is read by someone. They used to be called "hits" but that became inaccurate when links on the same page started being counted as hits. Anyway, it's a lot of page reads for a little backwater bayou like this.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:34:44 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: 11,000 page views! Message:

wow. so that must mean that there are alot of lurkers. There must be 50-60 regular posters here ? the mind boggles at the math.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:05:50 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Zelda Subject: bet it was 'Pam's report Message:

its truly powerful when someone at the top leaves and tells the truth.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:31:21 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: janet Subject: No, it's the Chai thread. (nt) Message:

no tea

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:11 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: All Subject: The single minded trap Message:

reading Francesca's reply to PAM down below has spurred me to re-iterate and re-examine what I posted a few days ago on Recent Exes... that the fixation upon the self and M alone is a dangerous single note symphony to play... The Question asked was : Where do we find our Joy ? And my thoughts have inspired me to realise the cost of the self-seeking and seperate path, in which 'I' am removed from 'This world'....suddenly - instead o knowing or acknowledging in theory the human cost of M-centric 'divide and conquor' living... I got a brief flash of insight into what it has cost. I realise the truth that I seem to have never really met anybody else. Every interraction I have ever had has been like 'ships that pass in the night' - I dont mean in the usual sense, but in the sense that I am seperate from them, and they are unknowable to me and they affect me only in so far as they collide with my headlong course. In my memory, it seems it has always been this way. I remember tripping on magic mushrooms before getting K and realising that other people were 'out of bounds' or seperate from me. This is not to imply that I am not an empathetic person... I am simply expressing the realisations I am having sparked by examining premie bliss in the light of almost autistic self absorbtion. It makes me feel lonely... an only child, playing with his toys in an imaginary world. Imaginary friends. Something in me, very young, submitted itself to the thought that I would never have anybody, I would always be alone, and has gone about compensating for that ever since... and along comes Revd Rawat and puts his finger on the spot. The isolation of Knowledge then - and the mono-vision of maha Mania was such a homecoming to me. It was a relief not to have to pretend to be interested in 'small talk'. I could invest myself inside my bubble... and the world, and other people were their own problems. This aloofness, is immature. I have been in suspended animation for 20 years - the seperateness of the concept of INNER is dangerous. Where do we get our joy ? The question is a good one, because it exposes the myth (and the truth) at the heart of Knowledge. Until we have expanded ourselves to find joy in others, in society, in work - there will be this immature person within who will respond with delight at Rawat's suggestion that the war is over.... that the world and others are irrelevant to the 'real' truth, and that INNER is more real than Outer. I wonder how many Professors, statesmen (and women), successful and fulfilled mothers, fathers, businesspeople, inventors, authors, sculptors, actors, engineers, farmers, fire-fighters, doctors, publishers, film makers and barristers would talk of their 'self' NOT being influenced, defined and connected with their world ? The 'holding back thing' which premies do, when you see them en-masse with their smug and arrogant tongue-in-place smiles, the subtle reservation which they think makes them better than the mass of humanity, striving for identity. It would seem that Rawat was offering a short cut to freedom... in actual fact short cuts sometimes miss out the best part of a journey. To win the lottery is not the same as having built a company, developed a career, forged success in a creative fashion. To steal the trophy and parade with it, is NOT the same as having competed for it fairly, and won. who is clapping as you do your lap of 'honour' ? Nobody. You are alone, and your trophy would be much better placed in the hands of someone who deserved it. I am going to give it back... and start again. Loafie

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:26:28 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: The single minded trap Message:

Hi Loafie Thanks for your post. It's funny....I feel as if I have an inner strength, an inner stoicism if you like that was probably there before K. Well,it carried me through some heavyy ego disintegrating bad acid trips hahaha.(Good trips too of course). However, I know what you mean when you talk of the K/aloofness syndrome....very weird world, that one.I think perhaps Rawats incessant early day heavy spiels (at least up to late 70's/early 80's)...just concentrate on satsang, service,meditation ....and for instance his purposely guilt inducing stuff such as his heavy Kissimee spiel when he called us all two-faced hypocrites (ah !!! the IRONY ...coming from him)sort of took what was basically a good, positive thing in us (ie an inner strength..a sense of benign self-power) and accentuated it and twisted it so much that it became a perverse, unsociable weirdness. His condemnation of chit-chat at festivals/programs etc ...his assertion that such socialbility was somehow bad, wrong ....a betrayal of your master. These days I feel more balanced. Being sociable is cool but so too is feeling a sense of ....well not cold aloofness or anything like that ....but nevertheless a centredness...a fearlessness at the core ,so to speak. I'm rambling a bit...not quite getting across what I mean. Even from childhood I've felt an inner strength and a feeling that my sojourn here is transient ....but also appreciate the fact that other 'individuals' are here experiencing it all with me. Haa I must shut up now....I'm trying (and failing) to describe what is after all just a vague feeling.... Enjoyed your post anyway.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:19:08 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: The single minded trap Message:

I know what you mean... what I described above was an awareness of a single strand of my nature which M and K strengthened.. somewhat at the expense of others. The pre-occupation with MY eperience, MY place in the pecking order, MY darchan, MY seat in the arena, MY Guru Maharaj Ji even until I left, a few years ago, left little room for a strong social concsience to develop IF IT WASN'T THERE TO BEGIN WITH. And with me, it wasnt. In theory... it was yes. I was a nice enough guy, but in practice, the early 80s of Thatcherism in the UK, premie-ism and immature-ism made me a pretty selfish person. I remember when i first seriously questioned the whole chebang. it was at the residence in the UK in about 1992 ish. M was around, M's kids were zipping about on quads.. the sun was shining I should have been as happy as a pig in muck. But I wasnt. I was quietly freaked out. I saw the power games of the premies, the un-ease, the fear, the jostling for acceptance from him.. the complete LACK of centredness and I thought...'by their fruits ye shall know them'. I know that things get pretty intense at the top of ANY hierarchy, especially around a celebrity... but this was dirty. I knew then, somehow, that knowledge hypnotises. When combined with subtle suggestion (nowadays) or blatant instruction (then-a days)those 4 techniques leave a person wide open to be 're-programmed'.. The actual nice feeling is the same feeling a computer has when its case is off. To promote TRUST as a FEELING.. to encourage the sense of openness for its own pleasure.. is a dangerous thing, because we are wide open to suggestion. The Context of knowledge and the receiving of it is loaded with 'interferance'.. it is 'the masters Gift'.. 'By His Grace'...and its not as if he is not nowadays an extremely accomplished speaker. He knows how to charm a room full of open minds... tell them what they want to hear..remind them of their mortality, and their disappointments in 'this world'.. remind them of what they already 'KNOW'.. that there is a better way, that it feels nice to have your case screws loosened... and that 'there needs to be someone whom you can trust' and bingo.. join the dots.. without being told (whereas in the old days I had been told 'trust Guru Maharaj Ji') I removed my motherboard myself and cheerfully handed it over. I trusted. I trusted the feeling of trust, but I never ever saw who or what it was that I was trusting. Now i am saturated with knowledge.. i cant ever pretend or imagine what I would have been like without it. And my 'aloneness' or seperateness IS a great quality. BUT I am changing,learning and opening to make it just one of many qualities I play. For too long Inner-ness was my default setting. In truth it is probably best employed as a screen saver. Loafie

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:40:53 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Loaf Subject: GREAT post, Loafie! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:38:35 (EDT) From: Jean Paul Email: None To: All Subject: Question to Pat Conlon Message:

Pat, A few months ago, you said that the technics of meditation 'revealed' bij Rawat belong to krija yoga. The teachers in krija yoga emphasize that the teacher doesn’t need to present himself like a messager of god and that he doesn't have a special grace. All the gurus like Rawat use these technics for their own purpose and include them in a system of devotion, participation, kissing the feet of he living and unique perfect master etc… Do you have documents or more information about the schools of krija yoga that you talked about?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:00 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jean Paul Subject: Hi, Jean-Paul Message:

At one time I studied all the yogas from books. Gradually during the first ten years my cult involvement I got rid of those books because I thought I no longer needed them since I was the student of the reincarnation of Krishna and Jesus, the living god, and the books were ignorant. When I discovered the Radhasoami connection documents on EPO I began to search the net for more info. I did not keep bookmarks to the sites I read but I kept lots of notes. One day maybe I will put the notes together for others to read but right now I am not very enthusiastic about yoga or Hinduism. I suggest that you do as I did and use search engines to find the info that you are looking for. Spiritweb has essays on many different types of yoga. I personally can't tolerate it because it is completely New Age but some of the article are interesting. If you have any specific questions and I know the answers I will be happy to answer you.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:20:36 (EDT) From: Jean Paul Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Hi, Patl Message:

Thank you for your answer. First of all, excuse my english. I am not interested in yoga and I don't use the 4 technics anymore. But, according to your text of 21 or 22 april , the fact that the 4 technics are a part of yoga without reference to perfect master, devotion, grace, etc… is important to put back these technics in a good context. If this is clarified, it is an another element to denounce the fraud of Rawat and others. I am also interested with the nature of these technics. They seem to lead to concentration and absorption ( like samatha or chine in buddhism) but without showing all the aspects that we are because the position of the mind doens't allow space for anything else. So, they allow temporary peace but don't give a complete view of the forces that constitue our being and in consequences they cannot favour deep knowledge and changes. It is interesting that samatha or chine in buddhism are only tools to bring the mind quiet so that it can be used for insight investigation or meditation.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:29:18 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Dear Pam, your NB was NB'd Message:

NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts. On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes. Hey thanks for the memoirees. I think we have taken a large step in addressing your concerns about this forum. We now discourage off topic threads, which were the source of a most of the acrimony and fighting. It is my goal to make the forum a safe and non-abusive haven for rational and civil discussion, for as wide a variety and number of people as possible.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:02:58 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry could you change the text please Message:

to make it clear no off-topic threads can happen here, and point out that anything goes is now the off-topic version of this forum, and that there is a mild non-flaming off topic forum too, as well as a password protected forum for recent exes with a link.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:29:31 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Yup, that's a good idea Message:

Ham, Just cleaned a seven and a half pound silver and packed in some oysters and manila clams as well as chantrelle mushrooms which Miss Patty is presently washing in the sink. Plus I'm already into my cups. Would tomorrow be OK?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:19:34 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Flame free or hot? Message:

What should my forum be? Click on the ''Flame Free'' link to see what I mean.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:24:43 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: sanjay dewan...???? Message:

Hello all, This morning I opened my hotmail account and had this message from the above individual, skdewan@rediffmail.com, cc: alan@woodcon.com: RE: shreenanglisahib: sir can we share views on the linage of mr prempal rawat i know the linage and made a site www.shreenanglisahib.com you will get a reward if you find mr hans there skdewan I don't know this person or the ''Alan'' either. That's exactly how the message read, no punctuation, and I didn't go to the site. And I haven't really studied the the lineage issue regarding M. Any clues?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:06 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: sanjay dewan...???? Message:

I've already posted this several time: the guy is a satsangi, PR of the Shri Nangli Sahib group/website. Looks like he's trying to recruit among the exes, and is a bit pissed we've debunked the Perfect Master fairy tale on EPO ...... Maybe he's picking the email addresses from the white pages.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 21:58:48 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Ok, thanks J-M... Message:

I haven't had time to read all threads...I must have missed your posts. Sorry... Be Well, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:05:24 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: sanjay dewan...???? Message:

some time ago, JMK posted something about this site. didn't follow it up as it looked like someone had concrete in their head. So Ask JMK. The headless monster

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:54:30 (EDT) From: Pam Email: None To: All Subject: 'my memoirs' Message:

'Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.' - Novalis Greetings to premies and ex-premies, Over recent years, as one of Maharaji's organisers, and an occasional PAM, I've seen many disturbing things in the world of Knowledge. Additionally, in conversation with other premies, numbers of equally disturbing things have been told to me. One, two, I could walk over, but gradually a picture has emerged that causes me concern for the welfare of people under Maharaji's aegis. I have come to the conclusion that it is time to say something about all of this. For a number of reasons that I do not wish to debate, I am choosing to remain anonymous. For myself, it is now clear, I am no longer a part of Maharaji's world, and though I do not wish to become a regular member of the ex premie forum, I would like to thank all involved for their insights and information, and for providing this forum for those people who are looking for answers. I started some time back putting down in writing all the things that are disturbing me. I've decided the best idea is to 'publish' appropriate extracts of this document here. Information is a powerful tool, though very little of it has been furnished to us by Maharaji's organisation, or by Maharaji himself. Indeed if I had to name the one pervasive theme of my experience with M - from the very early 1970s till 2001 - it would be secrecy. I am sure there are intelligence organisations that have less secrets than EV, and international spies who have less secrets than PAMs. For three decades, I have been one of the worst offenders. Information, of the type which has been provided at EPO and on the Forum - and below, I hope - allows premies, aspirants and interested outsiders to make informed decisions about joining or not joining, staying or leaving. In a way, all the opinions about M are secondary. The fact that Maharaji killed the cyclist in Delhi, and shifted the blame to a premie; that he drinks heavily; that he has selected premie women as sexual playthings; that he is worth 50 million US dollars; that for 25 years he has covered up, and declined to act on, a close lieutenant's sexual abuse of children...all this speaks volumes to those who want to make an informed decision. Our commentary and analysis is close to redundant. So, here is some more of that information - plus, admittedly, a bit of commentary. Another little corner of the M/K/DLM/EV jigsaw which grew so large for us over the last 30 years. A jigsaw which, till the ex-premie organisation started changing so many lives, we were only shown one or two pieces of at a time. The below is 18 pages - at least on my PC - so you may want to download it to your machine. Warm regards, Pam ****************************************xxxxxx 'How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?' - C.G. Jung It's been a long trek from the belly of the beast, up the esophagus, out the mouth and into the daylight. I hardly recognize the landscape, I've been in that belly so long. Quite recently, I've been in the strange positon of doing service for M while in my heart having left him. It was weird - but I got by. I made the final leap when I was ready. In the meantime I attended programs, did my work/service, and went through darshan, without feeling anything. It's bizarre to be in the cult environment and simultaneously deprogram yourself - but it can be done. What caused the shift? I think simply growing up was part of it. Believing in Santa Claus in advanced middle age just seemed too silly for words. Believing that Maharaji was the Living Master, to say nothing of the incarnation of God, was truly beyond the pale - especially when you'd learned enough of what he is like behind the stage act. (See below for all that.) But surely Maharaji hasn't taught that he's the incarnation of God since the 1970s? Yep. Sampuranand declared M to be Lord Krishna (the supreme God of Hinduism) onstage before 80,000 people in Delhi, in the late 1990s. M got up onstage straight after, to support the statement. The Indians loved it of course, though many of us Westerners were a little startled. What about the PR trainings we've had, where we're taught to tell media people that M has never claimed to be God? Maybe it doesn't apply if his statement is not made on American soil?? But in the end - in a strange quirk of fate - it was something little that did it for me. It was a conversation M had with a few of us about computers. Basically he was raving about Macs - how superior they were. I like Macs - though I don't own one - but frankly they are no better than PCs. They just come with a different set of pluses and minuses. M's brand chauvanism seemed really petty to me, and it made me wonder for the first time if he was such a wise figure after all. Funny how a trivial thing like that can trigger all your subterrainian doubts. Once those doubts began, they were like a torrent. Years of drips, then the Amazon in full flood. Once the 'doubtmaker' - i.e. your mind - begins to awaken, there's no stopping it. I could no more regard M as a special person now than fly to the moon. Even being in a room with him, toward the end, I just saw the screen on which I projected all my love, divinity, fear, and a whole bunch of Freudian father stuff. He's so ordinary once you see all that in yourself. But the last thing I want to do now is to make him into a monster. That's giving him an equal amount of power. In truth Maharaji is a pleasant enough guy much of the time. He is relaxed and relaxing to be with, and likes to make jokes and keep it light. He certainly relaxes in the company of men better than that of women - but he can get along with women too. He's just got the equation round the wrong way. M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion. What else could it be? You can't assess it or comprehend it. In practise (not in theory) it comes and goes all the time. 90% of those who practice it divorce their spouses. The organisation comprised of those who practice it is chronically dysfunctional - with leaders few people have liked, going back 30 years. Shattering stuff to realise after three decades - virtually the whole of one's adult life. A little like spending 30 years in Heaven, and at the end seeing that the angels were just guys with 5 o'clock shadow and acne who were paid $5 an hour to dress up; that all the singing was taped; and that the Almighty and his throne were just a pretty hologram. Bitterly disillusioning for a bit. But liberating thereafter - because finally you have some choices. ************************************************xxxx 'Repetition and forced attention are very conducive to the induction of a trance.' - Steve Hassan 'Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me.' - Maharaji With some exceptions, premies as a group are low achievers. The reason, of course, is that premies' ideas about Maharaji and Knowledge depreciate the value of all other endeavour. Whether it's stated or not - and it isn't, thesedays - doing 'other things' just doesn't cut the ice that 'achieving the purpose of this life' does. So people who could be flying jets or creating successful businesses end up spending a lot of time sitting under blankets with their fingers in their ears. And one person who spends very little time with his fingers in his ears ends up flying jets. If you speak to any long-term PAMs - e.g. John Miller (captain of M's old yacht) or Randy Prouty - they'll tell you than M cannot not do events. He adores being adored. There's only one Major Achiever in the world of Knowledge - not 10,000. And there's only one person at a major event who is completely comfortable in the knowledge of who he is. Everybody else is shooting for the false moon he has installed in a false sky, and can never know rest. ********************************************xx 'Whatever deceives seems to produce a magical enchantment.' -Plato I know others have said there were no financial improprieties in EV. I can only speak from my own experience - which is that EV was substantially a cash organisation until the 1990s. Money raised from the membership for Maharaji's personal use - e.g. a new quarters at the 'Windmill' area of Amaroo, costing several hundred thousand dollars - is still kept off the books. Assuming one could keep Raja Ji's drink-sodden hands off them, the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out $10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are. Raja Ji still pursues his traditional role of schmoozing, wining, dining and flattering rich premies to extract $$$ from them for the family coffers. This is not always successful, as some of these people have class, and Raja Ji is a rather gauche character. Having seen things from the inside, I'm still kind of shattered that thousands of innocent premies around the West think this thing is about Knowledge, love and the rest. It's a family business, and it's about money. Every recent Indian guru is the same: Sai Baba, Mukhtananda and Osho all trade(d) their spiritual credentials (which, like Maharaji's, are mostly faked anyway), and a convincing stage act, for cash payments from westerners who see themselves as spiritually impoverished. Money is the main game, but these people also get side-benefits from devotees, such as sex: Sai Baba gives oral sex to adolescent boys in the guise of some ceremony; Mukhtananda was well-known for raping adolescent girls in the guise of transferring 'shakti'; and Osho (a.k.a. Shri Rajneesh) would bonk anything that moved - telling his credulous followers that sex and enlightenment were more or less the same thing. Most of the above tolerate(d) abusive sexual behaviour by their lieutenants - most frequently child sexual abuse. Sound familiar? On the home front, the thing that concerns me most - as both a very-recently-ex-EV international organizer and as a human being - is the sexual antics of the instructors. The sexual frustration of the instructors is not something (thank God) I've experienced firsthand - but it is a kind of epidemic. Numerous premie women I know are molested, propositioned, pursued and worse by instructors, in many countries. Because these guys - many of whom I've known since the early 1970s - have never grown within a normal relationship, their approach to women now is highly dysfunctional and dishonest. I can't bring myself to name individuals - doing so would tarnish some of EV's brightest lights, of longest-standing. And they're mostly still my friends. We all got each other into the M cult - and now we're forming networks and giving support as, one by one, each individual is plucked out of it. So even the sexually abusive instructors - and that's the majority of those I know - are people I'd like to help out the door, rather than simply attack and discredit them. Having said that, this policy will change and names will be named, and incidents described in all their shameful, gory detail, if these practices continue. (And believe me, I know so many of the heartbroken women involved that I will definitely find out.) Too many women have been damaged by these serial womanisers/gropers/molesters (who lie to their current woman about their affairs with women in other 'ports') to allow this 'epidemic' to continue. This is not abuse a la Jagdeo - but it is playing with people's feelings in a callous, chronic way. I hope it's really clear that I'm going to blow the whistle on these people if this doesn't change. I don't want to hurt anyone - but at the same time unless these guys start to grow a bit, they'll continue hurting innocent, vulnerable girls all over the planet. And there's none so vulnerable as a woman who believes in the myth of 'Maharaji's instructors'. I should make it equally clear that I'm not talking about equal, consensual, honest relationships - e.g. Sampuranand and Bai Ji. And I'm not talking about some occasional on-the-road flings - we've all had those. I'm talking about using women as sexual playthings, and serial dishonesty, Maharaji-style. People around Maharaji (PAMs) get into power trips and bullying - the well-known 'mini-Maharaji' syndrome. Many PAMs drink a lot (or are alcoholics), just like the Master: throwing up on the way back to your tent after a night drinking with M around the campfire is not exactly unknown. Similarly, just like Maharaji, some instructors have misused their status for sexual gain. At the very least these instructors need to get counselling on how to form normal relationships. Ideally this counselling will take place post-K - because the inherently dysfunctional master-student relationship is the fertile soil from which dysfunctional approaches to women grow. A post-Knowledge setting for this kind of change is important, not only because Knowledge tends to replace/reduce normal growth, but because EV will never act against this sort of behaviour. The system thus encourages it. When reports are made (which is rare), EV takes no action. The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident: otherwise EV's record is of no response, no action, no attempt to assist the women involved, and no attempt to change the climate which gives rise to the incidents. (In recent years policies have been written on sexual harassment. Believe me, they don't apply to M or the instructors.) M's attitudes to women don't help much either. He once told a group of us at Amaroo that he wanted to gather all the girls with 'good tits' at one end of the property, and all the girls with 'bad tits' at the other end. In his public satsangs he frequently uses the example of when 'you come home from a hard day's work and your wife doesn't have dinner on the table in time' and the like. I'm not wild about PC myself, but this sort of thinking surely belongs in the 1950s. I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter. For example if Marolyn enquires as to whether Monica is present in Maharaji's campground with him - and she is indeed there - these staff have been instructed to tell Marolyn that she is not. If Maharaji and Monica are staying in a hotel together, Marolyn is to be given the same line. I was surprised by this at first, as Marolyn has obviously known about Monica for some years. I can only presume that the depth and extent of Maharaji's relationship with Monica is what is being kept secret from his wife, via these institutionalised deceptions. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Maharaji - but it makes the inner sanctum staff look even worse, IMO. It's a stark illustration of how one's values can deteriorate when one is focussed on the 'greater good' of keeping the Living Master. Such training also furthers the climate of deceit about this relationship. Even until the mid-1990s, Monica was telling me, when she entered an area where M was, that she was joining him to 'show him the latest videos' from Visions. As if everyone didn't know. The deceit - sorry, 'confidentiality' - is pervasive: the Monica thing is just the most visible example. The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave. For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them. ****************************************xxxxxx 'Today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside of the group. When the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a substantial image-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever betray the group.' - Steven Hassan By the late 1990s, EPO was starting to crack through the dynamic described by Hassan - showing just how powerful the Internet is. Premies were reading posts and journeys from people they'd once known and trusted - people who had left Maharaji, and left knowledge, but - unaccountably - had not turned into rotten vegetables. People started to leave. One of these was the woman assigned by the PR team to monitor the Forum, amusingly enough. To counter the rising problem of EPO, M had spent a log time trashing the Web - calling it, for example, 'the world wide parking lot'. This didn't work: premies got wired as much and as enthusiastically as everyone else. So the decision was made by Maharaji in July '98 to inaugurate an EV website. Mark Winter in the UK was given the task. The publicly stated reason for Enjoying Life was to propagate K and give premies a chance to express gratitude. Maharaji confided to the group responsible for it that the site's real purpose was to counter the anti-M sites - EPO basically. Latitude was given to Mark W in creating the site - i.e. premies were allowed/encouraged to diverge from the party-line devotional blather and mention problems they might have had getting their minds around Knowledge, and even a few jokes passed by the censors. That was to give the Enjoying Life site a bit of the 'realism' or rawness that traditional EV propaganda has usually lacked - and which EPO has in abundance. The Enjoying Life site was basically established as EPO's online competitor. In October 98, M told me he was extremely pleased with the result: I saw his Net-phobia evaporate overnight. ******************************************** 'The most curious part of the thing was, that the trees and the other things round them never changed their places at all: however fast they went, they never seemed to pass anything. 'I wonder if all the things move along with us?' thought poor puzzled Alice. And the Queen seemed to guess her thoughts, for she cried, 'Faster! Don't try to talk!'' Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass EV has nearly come to a halt at the present. Less people have received Knowledge in the West in the past year than in any year since 1971 - a 30-year low. Currently there is a participation drought throughout the West. People are pulling back, and getting on with their real lives. EV is being run by some of the old stalwarts, but the future of both the organisation's structure and the personnel who run it is uncertain. For once this is not because of mass burn-outs or M's habit of firing personnel left, right and center - it's because of a withdrawal of groundtroops. In Australia, the jewel in M's crown, Amaroo is apparently laying off staff, and activty is very low due to lack of funds. It's not clear who's going to be running the country's organisation overall. This follows a recent move by Derek Harper (instructor), Lee Marges and Catherine Gavigan (organisers) to oust Kay McKinnon (Pacific contact). It was generally believed that her $50,000+ annual salary could be better spent elsewhere. Kay McKinnon has survived for now, but that status is far from certain for even the middle-term. (A lot of people have been bucking for her to be booted for years.) Thus no-one down under really knows how to begin planning for the organisation's future. Ironically, all this happens against a backdrop of Maharaji's statement to the rich guys at the Arizona conference last month that he 'wants the politics to stop'. The politics in EV can never stop, as it's created by imprisoning people's democratic instincts within a top-down theocratic heirarchy: Maharaji, his family, PAMs, instructors, organisers, groundtroops and church ladies. Thus there will always be tension between instinct, conscience and common sense on the one side, and the uncomfortable, ultimately inhuman imperatives of the master-student relationship on the other. In kicking against this spirit-shrivelling dynamic in themselves, EV people also kick against each other - for they generally project the problem outward. Thus other organisers - but not me - are 'petty', 'insensitive', 'manipulative' and 'power-hungry'. In a normal organisation this could be ironed out with psychological growth. In one where the expansive behind of the Living Master of The Time sits like a lava plug on the volcano of our emotion, self-expression and individuality, it wasn't possible. So EV has seen nearly three decades of revolutions, changes in style and terminology, trainings, team-building programs, workshops, conferences, mutinies and purges - and everything stays the same. 'Direction is essential for the continuing existence of the crowd. Its constant fear of disintegration means that it will accept any goal. A crowd exists so long as it has an unattained goal.' - Elias Canetti The politics M is trying to amputate has been endemic to EV for 30 years. It's getting more petty and vicious - not less - as the caliber of those remaining dwindles, and EV's pool of available managerial talent shrinks. The secrecy is getting tighter too. Throughout the West people are getting really sick of the endless emphasis on 'confidentiality' - i.e. secrecy. In some places people have to sign confidentiality agreements before they can even do service. Managers and local contacts are starting to feel they're not able to share much with the groundtroops and church ladies any more, and they feel guilty when they do. (When you sin against the government, a corporation or even your family it's one thing: but sinning against The Living Master an the Whole Purpose of Existence is another.) I wonder how long the loyal Valerio will want to keep cleaning up the psychological messes created by the unreal relationships we premies have with M. Having been to several of V's trainings, I can vouch that he's a great trainer. But all the trainings, and the 'emergencies' Valerio is responsible for dealing with, will not do more than deal with symptoms - keep the lid on short-term. The basic dynamic needs to change. People need to create proper lives for themselves in the real world, and more importantly create proper inner lives for themselves. It's pretty obvious that most people who leave K start 'moving' in their relationships, careers, etc, better than before, when they were in the golden cage. But maybe the biggest thing is realising that the INNER life is better without Knowledge, and without Maharaji. Cleaner, happier, more even, more concrete. I've been on the phone in recent weeks to old friends who have done this. Sadly, I cut them off when they did - but now contact has been reestablished it's great. These guys have ended up happy. Those who've stayed have just got more and more stunted. I felt it in myself till I got out. Look around. EV is a psychic graveyard. And it's not because people have not done enough trainings. ****************************************xxxxx 'The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought (that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc) should be literally unthinkable.' - George Orwell, 1984 One of the things I have found most surprising since leaving is that so few people followed orders to hand in the DLM magazines in the late 1970s. Ex-premies everywhere still have piles of them. The attempt to re-program us away from our early history - when Maharaji was God, his brothers divine incarnations, and we an elect group more or less guaranteed salvation - was thus a failure. Probably one of the worst aspects of the attempt to re-write history is the claim by Maharaji and EV that the Indian concepts of the 1970s were promulgated by the mahatmas, and that M had no role in this. In reality, one thing that M aways had direct control over - even as a teenager - was the activities of the mahatmas and instructors. And of course this is relevant not just to the 'Indian concepts' debate. It's highly relevant to the Jagdeo affair. Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course. The rules of the recent trainings are: 10 second rule conscious respect confidentiality honesty participate unanimous no brain farts no dark thoughts But the rule underlying all of these - at least the trainings I went to - was RESPONSIBILITY. People who didn't take responsibility for their actions were absolutely stomped on by M. I saw hard-boiled businessmen stumbling around in the Delhi dust in shock, and non-smokers take up smoking, after some of his temper explosions around the question of responsibilty. People were terrified: it is no exaggeration to say that some shook from head to foot. Many probably thought the sky was about to fall in. How does that all square with sitting on his hands since the late 1970s, when he was first informed of Jagdeo's criminal activities? Maybe Perfect Masters are somehow exempt from preventing child sexual abuse, because they have their eye on some larger karmic scene which is invisible to the rest of us? Believe that and you may as well believe in the tooth fairy. On a recent Delhi trip, I chatted with Jagdeo in the IOC, in the centre of the ashram - where we were both staying. He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - maybe still does. He also still has access to children - was indeed spotted fondly patting one in the IOC in the last year or two - though I have no evidence that he is sexually abusing same, and hopefully this is unlikely after all the bad publicity. The Jagdeo affair is a towering example of the corruption that's set into the heart of what I believe to have, once, been a genuine attempt to help the world. That M is so central to Jagdeo's crimes continuing is, alone, reason enough for me to leave. There isn't a rationalization in the world that excuses complicity in raping children. That my friends continue to defend M in this respect seriously stretches my respect for them. ****************************************xxxx 'The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master's feet and guards against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can at least bask in the sun of a semi-divine being. He can enjoy the archaism and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for all responsibility is laid at the Master's door.' - C.G. Jung 'Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.' - Maharaji The first seed of doubt was sown in my mind in 1997. In LA toward the end of that year, Maharaji was depressed for two or three months - right through till Christmas. I was quite shocked by this. Things had upset M at the end of the 1997 Amaroo event - like a cow getting into his private campground and shitting in front of his doorway. Everybody certainly heard about that: 'I almost stood in it!' (Not a cow shits without...) Also he was stopped by some security person on a road for not having a pass. Finally, the schizophrenic son of two premies dropped some acid, then wandered into his campground for a chat at the doorstep to the divine pent. M's radio calls to the security personnel were misunderstood, and people raced all over the property - except to where the problem was. His final radio call was pretty testy. But the thing that made him the most pissed was an article that appeared in an Aussie newspaper. I think it said that he was a rich guru who did rather well financially out of his devotees, or words to that effect. Not something you could actually argue with. He was really angry at the PR team for not somehow stopping that article from appearing. And I remember thinking - before I could censor myself in the time-honored premie way: 'Why doesn't he alter his own behavior if he wants to stop articles like that from appearing?' The article just described the luxury homes, the jet, etc, as far as I can recall. All of these things are M's lifestyle choices - not things invented by a malicious journalist. Naturally the PR team accepted the spears in the chest, and various post-mortems were done to ensure they performed better next time. NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts. On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes. ****************************************xxxxx 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru... Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God... So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. You will find that Guru is the Supremest of all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high thing, such a high power, has come. I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' - Maharaji 'Who says I am not under the special protection of God?' - Adolph Hitler It's fairly well-known that the people around Maharaji tend to be heavy-drinking and competitive, and to engage in internicine warfare. (They even joke about it themselves.) They're also frequently ill physically. Indeed most of the half-dozen people closest to M are physical wrecks. I think a lot of this comes from the chronic fear in which PAMs live - fear of displeasing the superior power in person. The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no longer acknowledge him as their master. The 'loyal' exceptions - e.g. Marolyn, Monica, Sampur - generally have an economic or power benefits to keep them in the fold longer-term. ****************************************xxxxx 'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' - Jeanne Mills, former member of the People's Temple. At the recent event down at Amaroo, there were serious financial losses from a malfunctioning credit card system - people's purchases didn't register. In the months before the event there was a premie revolt over the huge registration fees. Not long before the event only a few hundred had registered. Panic set in, and Padarthanand was sent on the road to explain how the fee wasn't mandatory after all(!) Thereafter, a large number of people were admitted for free. The upshot is that the Amaroo finances are not in good shape. Some of the premies whose loans and mortgages support its existence are getting a bit sweaty-palmed. The official story on the 2001 event is that it was all sweetness and light. But the usual brawls went on. Most of the tent-erecting team mutinied before the event, because of a 'fascist' manager. (It could have been 1974.) The manual workers, without whom the event wouldn't have happened, were kicked off the site at event time, as usual, which caused lots of bad feeling. Probably they'll all swallow it, and come back next year for more. Then complain again when the predictable happens. Serious intra-managerial disputes lingered on from the Sept 2000 fundraising event, where several relationships melted down amid that event's howling dust-storms, especially in the front-of-house area - which has always been a major source of potential revenue, thus the importance of cohesion there. Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends. Valerio didn't get the respect during the day (the training) that he gets from poorer, community premies: these guys are rich, and aren't used to being patronized and belittled. He got put in his place a couple of times - though the training as a whole was fun and educational. Now, a year later, the defections of higher-level managers - some of them from K and M altogether - have left thinned-out upper EV echelons, and people are doing senior jobs who would not have been considered five years ago. There have been worried discussions about the quality of the folks who are now in quite senior managerial positions. ********************************************x 'A striking expression, with the aid of a small amount of truth, can surprise us into accepting a falsehood.' - Vauvenargues I'd guess that the disgraceful CAC site was M-approved, simply because every major venture of premies without exception is M-approved. (Not a penny drops...) A PR friend told me that the American premie writer Scott Ritter (he's currently hanging out down under I think) was deputized by the international team, earlier this year, to help come up with an online antidote to EPO that used 'radical new thinking'. Scott, I gather, was stymied by this. How could you shoot down so many well-attested facts? I woud surmise that CAC was born out of this frustration. Personally I think Scott is too nice to have created CAC, but the fact that he was put on the case this year suggests that an offical concern about EPO had reached sufficient heights for radical action to be taken - by someone. And taken it was. One reason CAC was pulled, I would guess, was that it was causing so much disgust even among the senior EV managers. Giving away exes' family's addresses, and tarring exes as pedophiles, is about as low as it gets: even the brainwashed have standards. The big-eating Frenchman would have kept this operation under the tightest of wraps, were it an officially sanctioned one. Even most of the PR team probably wouldn't have been told it was sanctioned by M - let alone anyone else. All the above re CAC is speculation - though not unreasonable speculation. It certainly fits with EV's pro-active pattern on the Internet since EPO began, of countering it. First came the large technical task of 'influencing' search engines so that search words like 'Maharaji' and 'Elan Vital' brought up the official sites first and the anti ones last. That job was done by an Australian techie in the late 1990s, and took him many months. Then Enjoying Life. Then Life's Great - which reversed the original policy of censoring premies. CAC kind of fits with a developing pattern. ****************************************xxxxx 'A morality based solely upon the tenuous thread of religious mythology is only effective for a comparatively primitive mind, through which God is invested with magical parental powers of punishment and reward. As people in general become emotionally healthier, more able to individuate from their parents, the gods become divested of their power to control.' - Robert Godwin As we grow away from this old, unhealthy parental relationship, I hope we exes can also get away from an adversarial relationship with premies. Their sins were till recently ours, and their blindness was ours too. A master-student dynamic distorts everything below it, but you don't see that when you're in it. An exhausted housemother falls asleep in the meditation room, and someone yells at her. A rich boy from Hardwar who got very lucky with the Western zeitgeist wants another Maserati, so premies forego things they and their children need to buy it for him. Someone commits suicide in the ashram, and the premie doctor fakes the death certificate. Not things people would normally do - but a cult provokes deep, strange loyalties, and 'abnormal' becomes normal. That's what a cult is, pretty much. We lived within this strange paradigm too. And accepted it, and propagated it to others. I think our task is to support each other in getting out, just as we supported each other on the way in, and for the duration. I strongly feel that we're all in it together: some have manned the lifeboats, and some have even rowed well clear of the sinking ship. But others are still in the ballroom listening to the band; and others still are fast asleep in their staterooms. But everybody is leaving, one way or another. It's a co-operative venture. We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year - pledging undying love to the womanizing, alcoholic Californian multi-millionaire whom we'd persuaded ourselves was the most important person on Earth - in blissful ignorance of the impending revival of the self we'd been taught to despise.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:47 (EDT) From: PC Email: pvcramer@yahoo.com To: Pam Subject: It is you Jim? Message:

So funny reading this 'coming out' of this alleged PAM. It is so transparent that it is a joke. More interesting is the gullibility of the people in this forum. Don't you see... The writer, takes the same regurgitated hearsay that has been trashed over and over in this forum, adds a bit of salt and pepper, some spice with second-hand quotes, a few rumors and an more hearsay and then everybody falls over with stupid admiration.... Is just funny... I'll tell you how it is. Maybe Jim, maybe another frequenter of this forum, is pissed-off that so many OT threads about Bin Laden, America's evildoing and other politics are being discussed here, instead of the anti-cult business. So these people come together and put this well cratfed piece of missinformation out, counting on the idiocy and gullibility of the people in this forum to just buy it! (Jim it is you? Man, you are good... How long it took you to fabricate this shit, Uh? not much, righ? You knew they will bite...) Do you want me to believe that a sane person, that knew of so much corruption and scandal first-hand, put up with it for years...? Why? Com'on! Give me a break, would you? Either this guy is a total idiot, or a total fabrication. I would go for the latter. The most amazing part is the one that this guy tries to make this forum more sensible, less obscene so that is more apealling. Good try... It ain't going to happen. And wat about, the 'new' sex scandal about the instructors? What a piece of BS. There are hardly a handful of instructors left, but probably you don't know this because your are not who you say you are. And the one 'I met Jagdeo'. Another good one! You give yourself up in your total lack of current information, and in the too polished way this piece was constructed. This person is so ficticious that it hurts! Peter Cramer

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:09:09 (EDT) From: don Email: None To: PC Subject: Re: It is you Jim? Message:

I had the same idea as you, the person may be fictitious, but the facts are real.....newly assembled to clear off obl...whatever

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:56:39 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: PC Subject: Peter, your head is up your arse. Message:

It just couldn't be true could it? All these lies about the Perfect Master, spread by evil, hate-filled Ex-premies with grudges and axes to grind. Sure, the Moonies, the Harry Krishaz, TM, they're all cults with false teachers. But Captain Rawat, he can do no wrong can he Pete? Christ, even if he smacked you over the head with a baseball bat it would be 'His Grace' wouldn't it Peter? He is Perfect. It's all his divine game right? Who would have thought it. You started out a sincere seeker of Truth, trying to give your life to the Creator, and you ended up covering up for Captain Rawats paedophile pal. Funny how things turn out isn't it? Get back under you blanket and poke yourself in the eyes for half an hour, maybe when you come out all the nasty stuff will have disappeared. Hang on in there Pete. Keep the faith. It's all part of his divine plan. All will be revealed on Judgement Day. Anth, let's sing a lament.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:34 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: PC Subject: Fictitious people Message:

The only people using fictitious identities are premies. You know who you are. And so do we. KIA

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:12 (EDT) From: PC Email: pvcramer@yahoo.com To: Pam Subject: It is you Jim? Message:

So funny reading this 'coming out' of this alleged PAM. It is so transparent that it is a joke. More interesting is the gullibility of the people in this forum. Don't you see... The writer, takes the same regurgitated hearsay that has been trashed over and over in this forum, adds a bit of salt and pepper, some spice with second-hand quotes, a few rumors and an more hearsay and then everybody falls over with stupid admiration.... Is just funny... I'll tell you how it is. Maybe Jim, maybe another frequenter of this forum, is pissed-off that so many OT threads about Bin Laden, America's evildoing and other politics are being discussed here, instead of the anti-cult business. So these people come together and put this well cratfed piece of missinformation out, counting on the idiocy and gullibility of the people in this forum to just buy it! (Jim it is you? Man, you are good... How long it took you to fabricate this shit, Uh? not much, righ? You knew they will bite...) Do you want me to believe that a sane person, that knew of so much corruption and scandal first-hand, put up with it for years...? Why? Com'on! Give me a break, would you? Either this guy is a total idiot, or a total fabrication. I would go for the latter. The most amazing part is the one that this guy tries to make this forum more sensible, less obscene so that is more apealling. Good try... It ain't going to happen. And wat about, the 'new' sex scandal about the instructors? What a piece of BS. There are hardly a handful of instructors left, but probably you don't know this because your are not who you say you are. And the one 'I met Jagdeo'. Another good one! You give yourself up in your total lack of current information, and in the too polished way this piece was constructed. This person is so ficticious that it hurts! Peter Cramer

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:09:40 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: PC Subject: why is that funny to you???????????? Message:

I am not sure about this person , who could say, but even *If* this PAM is a fake why is that funny? do you mean to say that it is ironic or sad/funny? ok that in itself but WHY is it funny that others would be taken in? I saw this place go gaga over the new and improved rob and no one protested. Zelda mentions this but is so vague I can't imagine anyone understanding her post. Sorry Zelda So, is it that anonymity is not trustworthy even if it is a right and a need for some? You could be a little bit kind. I started this post angry. Now I don't know but I can tell you I don't think it is Jim!! and I don't think it is funny to laugh at people's trust. Especially after they left a freaking cult. So what of the cult members hey? What about their trust?

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:00 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Selene Subject: Re: why is that funny to you? Message:

hey selene now just because my post misses pronouns,has no puncuation, sentence structure, or clear idea does not mean it is vague. I have read it over and it is perfectly understandable to a twisted mind like mine. :::::-\ Z ZZZ

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:54:47 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Selene- btdt/vicki quote from below Message:

she says it well I think in 'applause applause ' below ''About people who post here under the guise of ex premies that cause the flaming you spoke of, it occurred to me yesterday that they are probably plants by M to derail topics and redirect topics, that hit too close for comfort to M., and get ex's at each other's throats to keep off topic. Peole who are not the obvious Catweasles but people who those here earnestly believe to be ex's.'

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:20:12 (EDT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Pam Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

Thank you - this was an excellent time for me to drop in for a few minutes and see this. Elaine

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:58:54 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Elaine Subject: Hi Elaine! (ot) Message:

It's an incredible post, isn't it ... funny, I was thinking of you today. Hope you're doing well, and that you've found some reliable tradespeople! I just found out a couple of weeks ago that I have to find $4000 for a new roof(!) - impossible until next year, and another lean winter ahead ... but at least my deep-freezer is stuffed full, and I'm rapidly filling the one in my fridge, even though I've been giving stuff away. Love and hugs, Anna

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:33 (EDT) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Pam Subject: Anonymity and Comfort Zones... Message:

I hope that eventually you will feel comfortable revealing your identity. I say this because when I was still looking at the forum and EPO while I was still a premie, I would read posts by anonymous ex-instructors, and secret 'moles' in the Malibu residence, etc. It was very easy to dismiss ALL such anonymous postings as gossip or even lies. Michael Dettmers postings affected me greatly, because he revealed who he was. If he had made his postings anyonmously, they would not have affected me at all. So I hope that revealing your identity eventually is something you will consider. I feel what you wrote has a strong ring of truth to it, but until you choose to reveal yourself, it will be regarded as anonymous gossip by many, especially fence-sitting premies. As for your remark: ''NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts. On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes.'' I used to think that too. Many premies do, I'm sure. They are used to a more syncronized, conflict-free environment. They aren't used to having their comments strongly scrutinized and critisized, or their ideas vehemently challenged. They don't like the forum because of that. It's so un-peaceful. Well, I can only say, ''Welcome to the real world.'' In the Real World, not everybody agrees, nor are they always pleasant or syncronized. To make the forum more like you think it should be, would require a sort of control most people here would not feel comfortable with. I myself would rather live with the rough edges than have to conform to a sort of PC correctness about what ex-premies should have to be like. The forum is not really about ''belonging'', but is more about scrutinizing and analysing, re-constructing and understanding. Posting here, you have to develop a thicker skin, and sometimes just agree to disagree with people. I feel that is all for the best, and it has actually helped me to clarify my own thoughts and feelings, without having to always have them validated by anyone else. It's OK if people don't agree with me, and being able to accept that has made me a stronger person. And having my beliefs challenged has also helped me, to see more clearly, deepen my understanding, or simply change my mind in lieu of more information. Growing and changing isn't always comfortable in the short term, but is much better in the long term than the alternative; stagnating in a belief system that requires you not to not consider new information, so you will never doubt. If increasing the ''comfort zone'' here for recent exes means not arguing so much, by making it more ''agreeable'' by tolerating and not questioning the kind of sloppy thinking that got so many of us in the cult in the first place, I would have to question the value of that. Recent exes have to learn to be comfortable stepping outside of their Premie Comfort Zone, to be able to function happily in a world where not everyone is in agreement. Even after you leave M, you will find many of your subconcious beliefs and assumtions being challenged for a long time afterwards. It's all to the good though, and helps you ultimately. Best regards, Chuck Who knows that You Too Can be a Sat Gooroo

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:00:03 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: Good post, Chuck [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:54:57 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: ELOQUENT, my dear, simply eloquent!! Message:

Dear Chuck, Thanks for that Chuck. Especially with my post below, expressing distaste at the pressure sometimes exerted on those who would remain anonymous, you have eloquently stated the corollary. The exPAM posts with the most credibility Detters, Donner, Jim Sander, Jean-Michel, Cynthia Gracie and others who were instructors, PAMs and Decca slaves come to mind. 'All the President's Men,' as Mark Appelman once said. I knew some of those people, or knew who they were through the DLM/EV hierarchy enough to know they were credible. I'm waiting for some more female PAMs. Where are you, ladies???? Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:06:32 (EDT) From: Been There Email: None To: Pam Subject: Pam: A few questions Message:

Pam, I have had knowledge for 28 years and have also been 'close', though not as close as you nor for so long. I am marginally involved and still wish to remain anonymous. I wonder if you could clarify a couple of things: 1. Re the 'responsibility' issue at the training in India: What was it that M. did or said that made people terrified? 2. I have followed the Jagdeo story closely...but have never heard anyone suggest that he actually raped children. I understood from what I read that he 'fondled' etc. Is there evidence that he actually raped children? If so, did M. and instructors know this? 3. Do you know what caused M's 2-3 month depression in 1997? Why did it surprise you? 4. You say the 'The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no onger acknowledge him as their master.' I have received communications within the last year from PAM's who still capitalize 'He' and 'Him' when they refer to M. (as in, 'such is His infinite kindness.' If, as you say, most don't acknowledge him as their master, what do they acknowledge him as, i.e., what is the relationship? Friend? 5. Thank you for acknowledging that your statements about EV and M being behind CAC are just speculation. It was so gross that I had a hard time believing that he/they would stoop so low. 6. Re 2000 Amaroo: What is the 'front-of-house' area that has always been a major source of potential revenue? Do you mean front seats -- buffer zone area, etc.? If so, glad to hear there was a melt-down. It's a system that stinks rotten. 7. Can you say who the PR person was that exited after being assigned to monitor EPO? Thanks for any clarification you can give, and for, as someone else said, a 'brilliant essay.'

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:49 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Been There Subject: Been There - Read Abi's post below! Message:

Been There, you wrote to my amazement:- 2. I have followed the Jagdeo story closely...but have never heard anyone suggest that he actually raped children. I understood from what I read that he 'fondled' etc. Is there evidence that he actually raped children? If so, did M. and instructors know this? Read Abi's fragmentation post below. John.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT) From: Been There Email: None To: JHB Subject: To JHB: I'm speechless Message:

JHB: I hadn't read Abi's Fragmentation post. Thank you for referring me to it. I'm speechless. I knew Jagdeo. I always thought he was weird...but I had had not idea of the extent of his abuse. He should be hauled into court. He should have to face his victims.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Pam Subject: Okay, PAM, I apologize Message:

Last night when I read your essay, my first impression was that you were trading on your PAM status to make a big impression but were doing so unfairly by chosing anonymity. I also did not appreciate being lectured about how to behave on this forum. But I did not for one minute doubt the truth of your message. The sincerity and understated factualness of your writing was obvious. And I had seen enough of the behavior you describe as happening among the higher-ups to agree with you on that. I was also very disappointed that you chose to remain anonymous because I feared that the cultweasels who post here would simply dismiss you and they have as you can see from the inane posts by them in this thread. My annoyance also stemmed from personal reasons as I suspected that I knew you and had been in email contact with you for a while. Your anonymity felt like a slap in my face. (At the very least, I thought to myself when I first read your essay, you could have warned me ahead of time so that I could vouch for you.) of course I am speculating and you may not be the person I thought you were. Now I wish to apologize. The reasons for your anonymity really are none of my business. Your essay is brilliantly written (another reason for my suspicions as to your identity) and obviously took quite a lot of effort. Thank you and welcome and please forgive me for being so ungracious. Patrick Conlon

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:14:38 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pam Subject: One HUGE point of disagreement Message:

Dear Pam, I slept on this one, and I have one huge point of disagreement with you. I will preface this whole thing by saying that I am not trying to blame you, or preach to you, or make you feel bad, but you put several statements out there in your long and well-written post, such as the one below, that I respectfully disagree with: We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year . . ' I respectfully disagree. There are the rank-and-file premies, and church ladies who have no idea what is really going on. They are deluded but innocent. But I cannot agree that, there but for fortune, I would be in the shoes of those who have 'blood on their hands,' such as Valerio Pascotto, in his shameful treatment of Abi and gosh knows how many other of the Church of Rawat's victims, and in the shoes of my former ashram buddy, Marsha, and Glenn, and other premies that are a part of this massive coverup that has gone on for years. And those who have taken part in other coverups that I don't know about. Some people are just not corruptible to that degree. But I am sure there are many premies that are part of the conspiracy of silence, that are finding it in their hearts and minds to speak up now, and perhaps wake up and walk away, that would agree with you totally. Maybe if I'd stayed in for as many years as they had, I would have been in those shoes. Perhaps we will never know how far I could have gone down that path with my old friends, but I sincerely doubt it. One thing I noticed about the whole premie religion is that it is, basically, a sometimes begnignly selfish one. It is OK to only care about 'one's own experience' and not care much about anyone else's if no one else is being harmed. The problem is that in the real world none of us lives in a vacuum. When I was involved, I watched people willingly step over other people to get positioned for darshan or some plum service. I remember this one sister in the ashram who went on a jihad. She was David Smith's right hand for awhile in the SF community in the early 80s. After that ashram meeting at Kissimmee, she went around the house throwing out things like soy mayonnaise, calling it 'substitutes for things the Lord doesn't want us to eat.' She threw out people's books. I got the feeling she could practically stab someone in the back, because when she was on 'the bubble' it was just her and Guru Maharaji. Maharaji promoted that in his satsangs. I always thought it was wierd. I feel sorry that people who started out as nice folks, at least to me (maybe I was naiive), could become so morally corrupted, so lacking in integrity, as to do some of the things that PAMs have done to ordinary premies. How people could sneak Fakirinand out of the country after the attempted murder of Pat Halley, for example. But then again, one of those people who was involved in the Fakirinand follies, Mike Donner, is someone I now have a lot of respect for. So there is hope that people will wake up, and that we can all get along. That people can quit walking the path of self indulgence and selfishness, following the teachings of the selfish Master. But I cannot just gloss over it and condone some of the things that have been done. I left the ashram in 1982, and local community contact by about 1985, and spent many years disengaging myself from the cult as some of my best friends were (and a few still are) premies. Best wishes to you, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:34:26 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Well said, Francesca [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:11:24 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pam Subject: Thank you! Another chapter Message:

Who needs to write a book? Who needs to spend time trying to illuminate premies what is really 'real'? You said it all. And have provided the last chapter to my little booklet which I will share with all my premie and ex-premie friends, past and present. Your post with Michael's and Jim Heller's and others make the telling so very easy. Read and weep. Come to terms and move on. The whole printing is over 150 pages. But, printing paper is fairly cheap, especially when you factor in the human soul selling that is occurring by following Maharaji and his cult. Kudos to you! Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:41:24 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Pam Subject: Thank you, Pam Message:

I don't post on-topic here much, but I wanted to thank you very much for your post. I also wanted to say that many things you said in your post have also been said to me by one of my premie friends, although this person is still very committed to M and K. So your post rings very true to me. I hope you'll feel comfortable enough to post more on this forum - it is perfectly acceptable to be anonymous here, by the way. Take care, and thanks again, Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:54:53 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Pam Subject: ***best of forum*** Message:

publish this as a book, Pam. the world needs it. michael dettmers and donner should collaborate with you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:34:23 (EDT) From: don Email: None To: Pam Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

as long as the writer remains anonymous I take it is a stunt to divert people's attention from bin laden back to the big M. I actually think this may be made up by some literary barkeeper or the likes, prove me wrong , pam

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:35:31 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: don Subject: Flawed logic. Message:

don, just because you don't know the identity of the author, doesn't automatically mean what they say is untrue. Where does this logic come from? And what if it's all true premie-ji? Will you still be lining up to kiss the lotus feet? Anth, 'And I saw her face...'

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:04:07 (EDT) From: don Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Flawed logic. Message:

Did I say I didn't believe this stuff? It just seemed to me a com- pilation of things that were all known more or less. that's why I said what I said and thanks for the title premie ji, those new folks in front of the tv screen certainly are different from US

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:20 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: don Subject: There will be no whitewash in the shitehouse. Message:

hi don, it was you saying, 'I actually think this may be made up by some literary barkeeper or the likes, ' that made me think you didn't believe Pams post. Have you left the cult? Sorry for calling you a premie if you have. Usually it's premies who attack the credibility of the people who post here. That's why I mistook you for one. (Shit, don't say Peter-above is an ex too.) Anyway don. I stand by my story- Bin Laden was trained by the CIA. It's all in a book I just read. Anth the where's me shoes?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 08:57:11 (EDT) From: Yves et Danielle ARGANT Email: yves.argant@wanadoo.fr To: Pam Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

Dear Pam, We have just plugged in on your message. Amazing ! Amazing but not in the way you think, at least for us. We thank you for your critical spirit and for this general view of the 'premies-world' and the sincerity and intelligence you observe all this. We appreciate your softness to the people who are still 'in' and your suggestion to 'help' them out, without destroying them. We personnally are premies who might be qualified as 'dinosaurs' as we have been practising for 30 years. But premies who might be qualified of lovers of knowledge, but who have always be lucky enough not to invest themselves in EV. We have always met so much opposition in this association, because we always wanted to speak only of knowledge. Yet, the people around were fighting for privileges, power, and personal fame. Just as in all human associations. Although it is a normal human behaviour, behaviour we detested and always dejected. That's why we were dejected by what we call ' the jet-set of the premies'. We have always tried to follow the precious advice of Mahraji saying 'nobody in between' and to take care not to submit to the 'club'. It's not question of a 'club' but each individual. As far as we are concerned, the practice of knowledge has always brought us much relief and we have never been able to observe that our mind and intelligence was affected by the practice. In particular, over these last years, we have been obliged to use of the 'capital of intelligence' we have to face an flabbergasting adventure. We have never wanted to adhere to this 'intelligentsia' of 'important premies', yet, during the last four years, we have been cut off almost completely from the 'group'. We didn't have time to consider anything else than keeping the boat over the waters. Why that ? After fours years of hell, of enquiries everyday, 8 hours a day, to understand what was happening to us in our lives, we have finally come up with this terrific answer. We are victims of a plot mounted over many years. It is not a joke. Our lives were at stake and should have brought in huge amounts of money, in case thoses lives should end !!! The benefit was not foreseen for M, but for people in the French Governement. These people, as far as we know, have nothing to do with M, nor with E.V. To stay short (it's a long, long story), we have discovered that an action against M and against premies is on the run and is led by the highest intelligentsia of the french government. The reading of what you so sincerely say here only confirms that the ultra modern and war methods used by this governement are in fact efficient everywhere. We wouldn't want to bother you too much, because we would like to establish first a relationship without judjement to put up a climate of bilareteal trust based on proved, real facts, to avoid being considered 'insane'. We think that we have important revelations to make, too. We have tried to pass them on to M. But we have met, in France, a strong opposition and we think that the people who are against telling this to M are part of the people who are at war with M, even if they seem to serve him.What's really going on ? We don't understand. For the little we give to the practice of Knowledge, it's of such great benefit in our lives, it has helped us go through this turmoil we have been thrown in by the french governement and his 'anti-sect' determinated policies. We are so happy that JMK has opened this EPO, where he lets us express ourselves. Yet, he can't accept our story. He says we are crazy. Why ? We can produce all the documents and all explanations. Our children too !! We were a familly without a story. No responsibilites in EV. Our only target was to live happily, with our kids. We were not interested in knowing the size of M' bedroom. We are not jealous. We don't care. It's not the size of your house that makes the size of your happiness. We have been ruined, but not by 'M'. But we are sure that the people who are at war with him are the same people who led this secret war against us. We know now that a war is going on against him and the premies. That this war is led by professionals and special services, that the methods used are surprising and very efficient and are worth of the highest secret service actions. We wonder whether we will find a wide-enough mind who will be able to read this and try to understand a little, at least enough to raise questions. If you are a 'real person' and not just an invention of the war led to 'M', we wish to speak to you, get in touch with people around you, to explain another aspect of what is happening now, another version. Maybe you might communicate us the adress of Scott Ritter, so that we may get in touch with him. We are delighted to have 'met you' because we enjoy 'debate' and we are not afraid of real things. Bye, Yves et Danielle Argant

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:59:20 (EDT) From: Nick Email: None To: Yves et Danielle ARGANT Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

Yves and Danielle Please check your e-mail Love to you both Nick

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:36:42 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Yves et Danielle ARGANT Subject: Yves et Danielle Message:

you are not crazy. the french government is indeed very, very serious about keeping a much closer watch, on any group it learns about, that could be judged a cult. i helped translate part of the magazine issue of <> this year, from french to english, so that members here could read parts of it. As a result of that work, I came to comprehend that the french governments intent is to place itself protectively ,between innocent, trusting, beleiving individuals, and any agent it sees as seeking to deceive, them thru methods of mind control, brainwashing, religious claims and manipulation. I think their rage is well placed. Try to remember that EV is not the only organization they are awaare of. Try to remind yourselves that there have been deaths, suicides, mental illness, tragic outcomes and volumes of injustice that has come to their attention as various cases have been tried in the courts, as various past members have left groups, and told the truth behind the public image so carefully crafted, and don't forget the tactics that some groups have used in retaliation against those who have spoken out! If your child or friend was getting fooled by one of these groups, I think if you had the power, you would roar and act at once to protect them. Please remember--the newly approached person being invited by a group member, does not know the vast and ugly truth behind the organization. The recruiter probably doesn't know it, either. But the government does. They have far more facts and records in their hand than any member is ever permitted to know. And their only aim is to keep France free. To preserve for every citizen the human right to make up their minds, based in reality, free will, genuine information, and without dissembling and falsehood. If all you two have done is practice the techniques, over the years, and not been part of the organization, then you might consider that the state of 'being cut off' you find yourselves in is not relting from your government, but rather, from EV and MJ and changes in how things are done lately. There IS no 'community' today, in the world of knowledge. It's all been reduced and isolated, down to one household, one satellite dish. It's been deliberately liited to you and your screen. why? this way, ex's can't come and disrupt events. this way, MJ can stay home. this way, no halls have to be rented. thats money that can go in MJ's pocket. no bongos to worry about. all that cash pouring in for suubscriptions to broadcasts. it wasn't done to personally cut you off. It's just the true state of things today. I want to hasten to outline to you: the french government is not going to be witchhunting individuals. the new law is very stern about following the rules: Only if a group is brought to court over something it did and only if it repeatedly causes such problems and only if the courts deem it a danger to society, based on these findings-- only after all the strictest conditions have been met, will the court recommend to the government that the group be legally disbanded and forbidden to assemble or conduct it business in france any more. it is a fair sentence, with fair rules, spelling out what binds each side. so perhaps you have misinterpreted what you see. Most likely, the government is NOT targeting YOU, personally. It will not go out hunting. It has to wait for a case to come into the courtroom. But if you find yourself locked out of the EV community, its simply because things don't get done as they used to.there is no community anymore. It's all evaporated down to satellite feeds at home. In short--no one is intentionally singling you out for anything. The government isnt allowed to, and EV frankly just doesn't care about anybody! The truth is, you have drifted out of touch. things changed, while you stayed the same.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:00:31 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: janet Subject: I translated Combat magazine.. Message:

the html dropped the name out of the text by mistake. I refer you to the april/may issue of 2001, on cults and public health . the magazine is dedicated to combat against anything that is a danger to the health of the public. at first it was only about AIDS [in french, 'SIDA] but it widened its scope to include public mental health as well, after the recent increase in bizarre cases of mass suicide, refused medical treatment, aggressive and destructive break-ins of records, each by members of cult organizations, acting on orders from their cult leaders, adversely affecting others a great deal. It finally reached the point of such issue, the government felt something drastic had to be done about it. So they have. By sharp contrast, EV is bothered by no such remote concerns. I might also suggest that the state of paranoia forming in your beliefs is a classic clue as to how much your membership in this has damaged your ability to look at things rationally and objectively with dispassion. might I gently suggest that you recognize what it is doing to you, and that you venture to let go of your ties, and intentionally break free and leave it? you can't lose your community--you have none. thed government certainly can't harm you if you don't belong. once you put down the last, diminishing, fading strand of association, you will have freed yourselves to be able to see things again from a perspective based on nothing but your own intelligence.and things you are forbidden to think, right now, will suddenly be available to you again, when the cult agenda is let go of. Go ahead and let go. EV isn;t going to care a damn, if you do. And the government will be relieved and happy for you. That's all they really want for you. Honest. like i said--if you're out, if you cut the ties with EV, if you reclaim your right to think for yourself, even if the government IS going after EV, they won't be coming after YOU, because YOU won't be counting yourselves as having any part of EV. It really is ok to stop. it really IS ok to let go. It really IS honest to just walk away and go back to being just you. be assured: anything that was real and good will remain with you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:40:04 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@eircom.net To: Yves et Danielle ARGANT Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

Dear Yves et Danielle, thanks for responding to this site and this latest defector from the EV 1. I am a completely independent person who has no link with Any conspiracy or group to oppose Maharaji, apart from my own discimination and experience that tells me that his teaching and organisation is actually holding people back from finding freedom and fulfilment in their lives. In fact the opposite of what he purports to do. I have understood this clearly in my own life and observed it in the lives of many of my friends within and without the cult. 2. It has become a cliche to blame the organisation around Maharaji for all the shortcomings of the movement. But the organisation reflects the leader and he in fact controls it with a very tight fist. It does not speak well of his capabilities to put it mildly. 3. I don't understand what your own personal problems are but can only respectfully say that you could both bew a lot happier if you put this man and his teachings behind you and start with a clean slate. To have No knowledge is the first step on the way to freedom. Peace and Love Tim

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:51:15 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Pam Subject: Excellent post Pam Message:

Great writing, some excellent & relevant quotes. More info specially re Jagdeo and the money laundering would be appreciated. But especially loved the scene with gm dealing with the acid head, and the security people misunderstanding, running around like jackasses with fireworks up their asses, hilarious, but also the cow pat scene. Really there's a cult version of a spinal tap script in there, and I reckon you could do it. Re the aggression here, I don't think you understand how precarious it's felt here. A lot of the time the aggression has been the only way to deal with ignorant premie spammers and to make sure the coherence of the site stayed on topic, and didn't get swamped. The aggression has subsided drastically this year, as the number of new people have arrived, and knowing that we were finally starting to get through to the premie community and especially gm. But I suspect there is another side to this. I know when I first arrived here, and I had left for years, and had put together de-construction of his abuse of power etc, I still found it over aggressive, and although after seeing the ignorance of the premies who post here, and some of them, in fact most, have been the worst examples you can imagine, aggression is the ONLY language that gets them to fuck off. But still I noticed an uncomfortableness in myself with it, and that has a lot to do with an inability to deal with reality, and the self censoring that we all did over the years. Issues still to deal with when you leave I think. That's why the recent exes forum exists.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:50:37 (EDT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: Pam Subject: My reaction and further comment... Message:

Thanks for a very good essay. I like to read more from you. I am sending it to some premie friends for their reaction. One thing that came to mind reading your post: You say that the Indians would find the EPO stuff quite interesting/ confronting/unnacceptible. Maybe someone (JHB) would consider doing a Hindi EPO! Another thing... I have had the benefit of quite a number of years looking at this whole thing, discussing it on and of the forum, and having time for the implications to sink in. For a long time I posted anonymously (in fact my handle was 'Anon') and I can honestly report that it is a most excellent, rewearding - even 'enlightning' move to start using one's own name and being completely up-front in this affair. I firmly believe that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by rejecting the fear that drives us to live in secrecy. It actually becomes important, neccessary - empowering and imperative to be forthright and accountable for one's words and feelings. I think you must understand this. The 'reasonable' reasons I concocted for myself - to rationalise my need for anonymity - evaporated over time (and with arguments from Jim and others) and seemed ridiculous in the long run. I was timid about what Maharaji would think at first - until I realised that he was actually the one person with whom I really wished to discuss my misgivings. Then I felt uncomfortable about getting demonised by premies and then that extrapolated intpo paranoia about my family being the object of premie disapproval etc. All this has proved fear-based nonsense and I have gained nothing but respect and self-confidence from stating who I am, and my current feelings. I think there is a lot of fear in the back of people's minds that , not knowing God, there is the possiibility that Maharaji might be God or some agent thereof. (and this whole thing basically plays on the common belief that there is a Great Unknown and that Maharaji is somehow possibly a manifestation of that). So Premies who, like you and I, start to see unconscionable things develop in our chosen 'religion', find that there is a nagging doubt that Maharaji might be a trustworthy God after all and all the perceived faults are some elaborate 'Lila'. As a somewhat advanced 'ex' I have experienced that this idea doesn't really go away entirely, probably because one is aware that one still does not have any ultimate answers, but the expectation of that diminishes with the acceptance that this is simply the way it is. Also, it is a matter of practicality. I had to distance myself initially from Maharaji's influence because- even if my mind saw no need to leave - my body was reacting by making me sick. I now feel that it is simply the situation that , OK Maharaji may have initially taught me how to meditate etc. (which may or may not be a good thing) but I am no way going to bottle up my feelings or deny my conscience because he may be this great 'Master' (whatever that's supposed to be). I am utterly comfortable these days to question Maharaji and the preciously held religious views of premies because I see that those who follow him and the premie lifestyle, as I did for years, are quite obviously disfunctional and really, causing harm in many ways. I think that I can narrow the cause of this harm almost to one thing and that is - Fear. To me, the reluctance to question, the need to put someone on a pedestal, to empower someone with such authority, is all fear based. The confusion that I see in current premies is that they just cannot see that their 'love' and loyal 'devotion' (as you pointed out in Loyal-to-the-bitter-end Glen, who lives nearby and with whom I occasionally discuss this stuff) has roots in the past where fear and dependancy were, in retrospect, an extremely obvious dynamic. I think premies, in their urgent remonstrations that the past is dead and buried, and that Maharaji has moved on, are missing the facts, denying that they need to at least look at and acknowledge the historic intimidation and humilation that has played a part in making them what they are and has made Maharaji what he is today too. The way premies see Maharaji, if all the reports of his behaviour are true, is obviously myopic. Their ability to exercise 'Occams Razor' (the principal whereby 'if it quacks, has webbed feet, wings and a beak, and looks like a duck then in all probability IT IS A DUCK) seem to have gone out of the window. Maharaji can literally behave with consummate dreadfulness and he will still be seen as the kindly benefactor for whom all sins are forgiven. Several premies (who actually acknowledge that all the contentious reports abouit M are true) have come up with the same analogy to explain their continued admiration. They cite the example that Michael Jackson's alleged dubious private sexual predelictions do not alter people's admiration for him, or ' gratitude ' to him as an entertainer. I have a problem with this attitude actually. If someone in a postition of power is guilty of a crime or abusing others, it is unjust if their good deeds be permitted to draw attention away from their misdeeds to the extent that they are not brought to account for the latter. Premies effectively will not countenance that Mahartaji be brought to account for certain things and indeed close ranks to ensure that he is not held responsible in any way. This amounts to a conspiracy to protect him I suppose. Lately I have been watching the web developments with little inclination to react myself but with some interest. I see the franticly composed and statedly one-sided, proliferation of websites that have sprung up as being a rather absurd indication of the enormous discomfort premies suffer at having their beliefs and icons questioned. I am settling into an attitude of moderate tolerance towards people with preciously held views but I reserve the right to speak freely about what I think about religious movements, and I would like to see more sensible thought and education about the world of cults and the insidious manipulations that go on in the name of 'Truth'. The fact that premies and Maharaji are so touchy about being examined or having a spotlight on their 'secret' activities and initiations, means that their 'Truth' is highly vulnerable. What have they to be ashamed of??

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:59:56 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re Indian languages ex-premie sites?Pat C? Message:

This has struck me recently too. As it disintegrates in the west, as long as this new tv shit doesn't help it linger longer, he is bound to retreat to where the majority of his followers are. There really needs to be versions of epo in a number of languages. Someone must have contacts, know of some bi-lingual exes.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:12:53 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re Indian languages ex-premie sites? Message:

As Pam said, when the Indian premies find out about the meat, booze, blondes and mistress, they will leave Rawat immediately. Now, I can kick myself that I lost contact with my Indian premie friends when I first dropped out of premiedom 20 years ago. They set up conflicts in me. The western premies were obviously out to lunch but the Indians still sucked me in with their faith and devotion. I had to cut them off in order to avoid my conflicts. If only I had known then what I know now. But, one day one of them will step forward and, when EPO is translated into Hindi, that will be the end of Rawat being able to tell the Indians that he is the incarnation of Krishna as he still does.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:25:14 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pam Subject: Just answer the questions ma'am. Message:

Hi Pam, A deep, heartfelt “Thanks”, and sincere cyber-hug for your post. I printed it out and read it over breakfast. (It’s got kipper and egg on the bottom now). What an inspiring start to the weekend. Stuff like this can kick off the process that ends with somebody leaving the cult and getting in touch with themselves again. This is the most powerful type of writing there is. It changes lives. Aside from the content, it’s well written. (Did you do research, sorting quotes for a cult publication? You’ve come up with some excellent, relevant, stuff.) I whole-heartedly agree with your conclusion that premies and ex-premies are “all in this together”. Some of my closest friends are premies. I have no wish to end these relationships. Some premie “friends” broke off contact with me after I left the cult. Those that remained have shown me how deep their friendship really is, and I value it even more. On the topic of the forum, and also in its defence, there has always been a spirit of freedom of expression here. Censorship is kept to a minimum. People prefer it that way, in fact, as someone who was involved with it practically for over a year, it’s difficult to see how it would work better any other way. Also, like a newspaper, you don’t have to read every article, or exchange. Invariably, with this open atmosphere, all sorts of shite will crawl, plop, or splatter onto the screen from time to time. And sometimes, what is shite to one person, is manure to another. Anyway… I digress. I have a few questions for you, relating to the Jagdeo business. I imagine you’ve read the stuff on EPO and are aware of my interest. I’m particularly interested in the “high level meeting” you mention took place in 1980, attended by Maria Isabella. Do you know where and when the meeting took place? Do you know anyone else who attended, besides Maria Isabella? Do you know who arranged the meeting, what was discussed, and what the conclusions were? Are you aware of any other occasions when the matter was discussed at cult conferences etc? (Phew, I feel like a cop. Sorry.) Like a coffee? Good. Okay, I’ll start the tape again. You say, “Glen wasn’t involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express.” I’m an old pal of Jonathon Cainer. We had some good times together over the years and I always liked him. I tried to communicate with him privately when the Express stuff was going on, but he didn’t get back to me. Anyway, knowing that Jon’ isn’t short of a bob or two, and in cowardly fear of legal action, I’ve always been careful never to suggest that his employment at the Express was connected to any suppression of the story they were doing on Jagdeo. The nearest I got to an explanation was that the story had been dropped, “for commercial reasons”. Anyway, your comment about, “suppressing the story” interested me. Do you know any more about this? Pause tape. “You can call your lawyer if you want. You don’t have to answer, if by doing so you incinerate yourself. OK. I’ll start the tape again.” “Did you spend any time in Afghanistan in the 1980s or 90s? Do you have any foreign bank accounts? Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party, or other extreme political groups? How many full-length pranams do you estimate you’ve done in your time as a cult member? Have you ever taken any of the following drugs: Bliss, Ecstasy, Samhadi, Romular and Red-Wine? (I had flash backs for five years on that one man.) Thanks again Pam, Anth the 10 second, conscious, respectful, confidential, honest, participating, unanimous, brain fart, shrouded in dark thoughts.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:17:31 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Pam Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

Dear pam, thank you so much for your long post. It is definately a milestone for EPO and for those who are wavering within the premie world still. Powerful because it is informative, intelligent (none of that boring ranting that turns so many of us off and scares away visitors here) and witty. Insightful too, You have obviously researched in some depth the dillusional nature of theocratic closed systems, the dillusional possibilities that spring up when us humans get together to progress some ideal (especially if it relates to the world of religion/spirituality), The trouble and mischief that emanates from belief is incalcuable and is once again Earth Threatening at the moment. Anyway, congratulations on your leap and incisive comments Visit us as much as you can..a healthy voice Love Tim

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:36:12 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Pam Subject: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

Being a writer I know that I can make things up. Your only credibility is your real name and you have chosen ''not to debate (your) anonymity.'' I'll talk to you when I know who you are. PS I let ordinary premies get away with anonymity but not PAMs. Everyone here will ooh and aah over you because of you former status in the cult. To me that simply makes you a bigger accomplice than the rest of us. You can exonerate yourself by saying who you are. So far all I see is a pompous windbag.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:39:02 (EDT) From: don chauvi Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

Nice try,but i don't buy.Come on , Pat, admit it, you did it! That masterpiece interlarded with aphorisms from the great thinkers of the world could only be from such a genius as you,come out so we can all applaud....

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:51:12 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

now Pat I was surprised by your windbag comment. Not that it is a good thing to fawn over this Pam, but why would you think a Pam should declare their name any sooner than anybody else? You are saying he can exonerate himself- but Pat he is not asking you to exonerate him/her. then again it could be rob . (just kidding) He was always trying to smoke info out of us- ie was there any organized legal action ect and he always popped up when there was a groundswell around a particular issue- never tackled the issue square but via a fenceline alcholic Pam personality goaded ,cajoled and smooged on another thread untill somebody got mad at or drunk with him and then he would come out with his real agenda- getting info. love and light Zelda who still hears the snake rob in the grass

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:39:40 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

How do you know who are ordinary premies pray tell Pat?(Maybe we just keep it all under our hats?) Some facts there are a little dated and mildly inaccurate.The thing for me is that EV is actually an impermanent structure that will/has worn out it's usefulness.It all comes down to knowing who YOU are. Me? I couldn't care less if it fell down around my ears. It is irrelevant. Ever here the term 'Phoenix company'?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:32:15 (EDT) From: bob Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

I can't help myself: Yes Phoenix company.. you want to be part of . . . . That??? There was a time when we looked , slightly disdainfully, at, even divine..'Organisations' (Fake, fake fake...!!) Ask yourself the Question: no matter how much maraji can turn you on, (sorry, I have to interrupt this post to save my keyboard from corrosion from acidic vomit) do you really want to serve this toad in his quest to control his victims? You can know who you are . Just use your fucking brain, or , whatever take any of the meditations readily available on or off line. the sorry caricature has nothin to do with it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:05 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: bob Subject: Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

You amaze me you MF. I am using my brain you are not using yours. I am saying that you are wasting your fucking time spraying EV.You seem to be too stupid to understand why I mention the Phoenix syndrome. Things change

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:36:48 (EDT) From: Asst FA Email: None To: CW Subject: Things change? No, only aliases Message:

Did you know that there are 30 regular posters here currently from the USA out of a pop of 280,000,000? And that there are 8 regulars from the UK out of a pop of 60,000,000? And that there are 7 regular posters from Australia 5 of whom are anonymous out of a pop of 15,000,000 and that 5 of those seven post from Sydney? Do the math Rawat apologist. You're transparent and you're pissing in the wind.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:22:08 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Asst FA Subject: Re: Things change? No, only aliases Message:

These are very interesting facts. Are you sure you wish the lurkers to know just how pissant this site really is? 5 from Sydney?Fuck me , we are talking saturation arent we?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:45:10 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: CW Subject: Woddyathinkcat? Message:

Hi Cat, What's your take on Rawats boozing, shagging, leaving the scene of an accident, deceiving Marolyn, drunken driving, protection of Jagdeo, abuse of followers etc? Is it all lies? Have we twisted the facts? Or is it just a lila? Woddyathinkcat? Anth, swept out to sea in the river of bondage to maya etc.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:08:34 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth you forgot a couple og things Message:

that they lied about not knowing about jagdeo, that they know where he is, that he still has access to kids, that they have known for 20 years, that gm has known for ages, and that money laundering by premies of suitcases full of cash are STILL going through customs to line gm's pockets, I'm sure there must be some law on this don't you.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:04:25 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re: Anth you forgot a couple og things Message:

I have no idea who the author is but I believe they are 'mistaken' about Jagdeo. That's just a crock. Get over to India yourself (if your game!)and you can search the place from top to bottom but you wont find JD. He isn't there and hasn't been there for a while.The only way this issue has made it to to the surface is because there is so precious little else for you monkeys to throw around. Sexual abuse claims have a designated pathway that is lit up like Heathrow Airport at 10 pm. Clearly this is not the pathway that the 'victim' in this case has chosen or been advised to follow . Perhaps her advisers wish to re-invent the wheel. It seems clear to me that the issue is being seized upon by the more opportunist here among you simply to bucket M. I fail to see how the approach promulgated here will actually benifit any victims. It's another piss poor publicity grab. Frankly I think that the actions of those advising Abi borders on criminal negligence. If it happened here in OZ they would find themselves before the Law Institute. Now to the second really dumb claim. Considering that 95% of recent transactions have occured at Amaroo via Credit Cards; what do these mules carry in their suitcases - Amex slips? You believe what you want to. But me? I smell Rob................

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:42:31 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Hey Cat, hang on a minute. Message:

Cat, How do you know Jagdeo is not in India? Knowing where he isn't implies you know where he is. What information do you have on this? Anth the balsa wood socialist.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:32 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Hey Cat, hang on a minute. Message:

Maybe. Abi should have snatched the olive branch held out to her by the Ozzies..................

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:39:39 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: CW Subject: What about my question Cat? Message:

Like, how do you know jagdeo's not in India? anth, who would like to know why you said that.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:24:48 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Sometimes you almost sound human but... Message:

....in the end the death's head always seems to show through the fake flesh and it is the pitiful grimace of a mind in a torture chamber. You poor sad person whoever you are.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:52:32 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: He is human Pat. Message:

He's a sincere, creative, generous guy. He has immense faith in God. The trouble is, this has been hijacked by the Captain and his bullshit Knowledge/Perfect Master trip. Give him time. He'll see the light eventually. He's not stupid. But for now, remember he thinks he's a disciple of the Living Lord, like Peter and Paul in Galilee. He knows it's not working out right, but he thinks it's all a test. Or have I got it all wrong Cat? Yes, I admit it. I've got it wrong. He's a brainwashed, fanatical cult member, who loves the sound of his own voice above everything else. He drives all his friends and aquaintances crazy because he never stops ranting. He's a complete nut. His big regret is that he wasn't a General in World War 2. (I wonder if he was the 'tent foreman' at Amaroo who caused a rebellion and strike amongst the premie slaves. It sounds exactly like his sort of work.) Pollyantha -schizophrenic and subject to vast mood swings.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:29:56 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Sometimes you almost sound human but... Message:

Aw come on Pat . Why dont you shut the f..k up you pitiful old queen. At least my death mask is only theatrical make-up. Now yours , well I'm sorry Pat , I'm really sorry........

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:33:14 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: Only 'mildly innaccurate' eh Cat Message:

Interesting response. So does thast mean, even to you, that the Jagdeo information being known for years, and high up, and the financial courier service, can't be denied, apart from all the stuff about gm in there, which of course you selectively avoid dealing with.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:54:37 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: CW Subject: Of course premies say EV is only Maya! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:37:48 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Not so Message:

You seem to confuse my personal opinion with some sort of party line. Pay homage to the glass tower if you wish.Many of us have no need to seek approval or power from a voluntary organisation.The illusion is that there is anything there.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 08:11:06 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: Not so Message:

i dont know if you are a premie or not because I am here sporadically. It is true that premies that are slick, successful and confident in the world OFTEN spout off about the fact that they dont care about EV or maraji for that matter- because the knowledge makes them happy so they dont care what M or EV has done or is doing. it is a glass sided denial which eclipesis everything but self interest.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:15:13 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Re: Not so Message:

I have no interest in whether K appeals to you or not. I'm simply saying that you aren't dealing with a box of banana brains.Some of us are a little more together than you credit us for.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:34:55 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Underwhelmed? Message:

Underwhelmed eh Pat? And I bet that's not all you'll be under this weekend. You sound like you could be a little under the weather too. But I digress. I've been in contact with more than one cult honcho, who has inwardly left the cult and Captain Rawat, but is still tied up with the organisation. Sometimes these people have signed stuff that gives them serious legal and financial obligations to the cult. This means that if they identify themselves, they could be creating serious, and very real, problems for themselves by going public. I'm sure once these ties are cut, they'll feel more comfortable about revealing who they really are. You go through all sorts of shit when you start to exit. You question Pam's credibility Pat. Be honest. Read the post again and tell us you don't believe it. To me it has the ring of truth. (But there again, I'm the gullible type Pat. Shit, I was even in a cult myself once.) Bonne weekend mon vieux, Anth, been in steep decline since waking.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:34:20 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed Message:

Yeah Pat, I lean toward your view too. I was kinda hinting at it in my post but also think he/she has made a very big leap with this first shot. I think maybe (maybe) (s)he'll reassess his/her stance on anonymity. Revealing his/her identity would make his/her post at least ten times more effective and help other pams do the same thing. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:32:16 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Pam Subject: Thanks Pam Message:

If everyone would spill the beans like you it would make it easier for people to come to their senses. I am going to show this to someone later... I think it will get through to them. It seems everyone has a different achilles heel where 'knowledge' is concerned but straightforward, revealing stuff from people who have actually been in with the in crowd is very powerful. Could you answer me this? Do you think M believes himself to be anything special or does he see it as a business? ie is he cold blooded in using his pwks as money cows? I agree with you about premies as I so recently was one and have a lot of premie friends who are fine people imo. There are some horrible exceptions it seems from some of the posts here. I hope you will tell us more. Peg

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:39:37 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Pam Subject: ANOTHER BEST, BEST OF FORUM!!! Message:

Thank you! Re changing the tone here, it can only be done one person at a time. So WELCOME! Best wishes, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:13:38 (EDT) From: bob Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Re: ANOTHER BEST, BEST OF FORUM!!! Message:

***********BEST OF FORUM************(() ())

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:23:11 (EDT) From: Jim S. Email: None To: Pam Subject: Required reading for all... Message:

Thank you Pam for your extensive and thoughtful post. I think that everyone should read this post...premies, ex premies, aspirants, and especially the friends and family of those people. If you would add any more information, insight or opinion it would be welcomed by everyone, I'm sure. I agree with you what you have to say about the sometimes rough and tumble nature of the forum....it probably does turn off some people, especially when they see some of the cyber-wars that have emerged lately...I'm not sure how it can be improved, except for possibly somehow taking those arguments off to another site to continue.....over the last few years, the information, insight and commentary on epo has been extraordinary and responsible for many people being able to take a long, honest look at maharaji for the first time....yours was one of the most informative... Thanks again for your post. I hope that you can add more as time goes on, and that everyone gets a chance to read what you have written....information is indeed powerful...it can help many to reassess their lives and move on...

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:14:38 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pam Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:02:36 (EDT) From: A Friend Email: None To: Pam Subject: Re: 'my memoirs' Message:

Ms. Pam , Thank you for administering the most heartfelt, literate, and thorough 'high colonic' the current era (2001) Premie World has ever received ! And what shite still remains within the very fiber of this lot, and its woeful myopic leader. So much for the 'that was the 70's its different now' crowd. Yeah. Maybe worse. It sounds like you and Dave Anderson , while running in the same 'Insider' circles, seem to inhabit different worlds. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when you two meet to compare notes, or when the professional apologists at PleaseConsiderThis, try to spin this megadose of reality away with their breezy prose and selective memories. (And to think that they proudly expose their young children to all of this!) One mistake I would like to point out, however. 2005 in not the year the ship goes down. Early 2003 at the latest. Once the 100th credible ex-premie (monkey) goes public, the centre won't hold. My guess is that your piece alone has moved the demise of this travesty forward about 6 months just by itself. Thanks for your efforts in cleaning up your bit. Its like listening to tales of Bin Ladin and the bloody Taliban. Just different types of bombs. Crimes of thre true believers. Peace bomb indeed . Though we were all, at one point, true believers.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:01:37 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pam Subject: Whoever you are Message:

Thanks very much for your post. Apart from it's obvious revelatory power, it was aesthetically cool too,,,nice ,relevant quotes. It's bound to help lots of people face up to what they probably already know deep down!! So, thanks again .....maybe one day you'll reveal your identity which in turn may help those PAM friends of yours to jump the sinking ship too. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:49:02 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Pam Subject: not a cow shits? ha :) Message:

What to say? Thank you so much. I expect more and more of these posts to happen as time goes on. M hates the internet does he? You know I would think 50 million would be enough to go away and leave it all behind. Why does he go on? Does he truly believe he is doing so much good that he owes it to the world to continue or does he think he needs more money? Although I agree our opinions are secondary to the facts, they sustain us and support the facts and it is up to people like you to fill us in with details. They don't talk to me anymore so what can I tell anyone? Only my thoughts. Thoughts which I have learned over these last few years are not pieces of shit but valuable and important at least to me. And as for conflict either I have gotten more sophisticated or more hardened but it seems that again, as time goes on the conflicts are not as bad here as long as one is willing to listen and try to communicate. Thank you especially for the info on Jugdeo. I knew this was a cult after all! Classic symptoms. And though you say M is not a monster the picture you paint is not at all pretty, people close to him getting sick from the stress and all. I cannot say I am ready to befriend those who allow this to continue. But again, thank you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:12:52 (EDT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Selene Subject: Re: not a cow shits? ha :) Message:

one of your questions is 'why does he go on' isn't 50 million enough?...his identity is completely into the role of the master. without that 'purpose ' in his life he would drink even more and be even more depressed then ever. making a new start is hard, as many of us know....and would be very hard for him after all this.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:39:48 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: michael donner Subject: I see your point Message:

Just can't imagine it being so tough for the poor old codger. but then I can't imagine wanting to be in the god biz or whatever he thinks it is. Thanks for the insight, I think you may be right about him. Very strange. Just saw an article that the Rev Moon is really getting up there in age, 70s. It fascinates me what must go on in these people's minds.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:31:16 (EDT) From: JHB (EPO Webmaster) Email: jhb@ex-premie.org To: Pam Subject: Could you email me please? Message:

Thanks. John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:24:09 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Pam Subject: A small disagreement and an agreement Message:

What can I say? Superb. I like the quotes:-) Disagreement - the forum will always have conflict. Freedom demands it. I know premies come here and are offended by the disputes here, but I can't see an alternative without blatant censorship. Many people have come here and said the same thing as you about toning the forum down, but it hasn't happened yet, so I think it's unlikely it will. Agreement - most current premies are not the enemy, in spite of CAC. They are the same as we are but just stuck in the quicksand a bit deeper. If we don't attack them, then working together we can pull them out:-) John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:22:38 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Pam Subject: thank you thank you Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:08:21 (EDT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re: thank you thank you Message:

thanks so much for your post, the time you dedicated to it, the clarity and all...stick around for a bit and please continue to offer some insights and stories from your personal experiences. no judgements are needed, the facts and simple stories speak for themseoves.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:37:34 (EDT) From: Mr. Dooley Email: None To: Pam Subject: Simply the BEST thing ever written here [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:19:50 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pam Subject: What an amazingly excellent post! Message:

Thanks for all of that. The facts, the speculations and the opinions. All excellent. Good for you. Good for all of us. Thanks again.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:51:45 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: Jim Subject: Totally Outstanding...Just Amazing... Message:

As Jim said, good for you, good for us. Who's the 'big-eating Frenchman'? :-)) I think I know. Again, thank you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:15:03 (EDT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Barbara Subject: Re: Totally Outstanding...Just Amazing... Message:

big eating frenchman must be jean marie bountou (sp)

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:00:32 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Barbara Subject: Applause, applause! Message:

Pam: Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your gut wrenching, painfully honest, and illuminating post. We have been waiting to hear from you and others like you for a long time. I suspect Abi's similarly heroic posts helped you to forge ahead. All who read here owe both of you a great debt of -- dare I say it -- gratitude. Please feel free to email me. Confidentiality ensured. I'd imagine there are loads of frantic phone calls and emails being exchanged in light of your post. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:08:22 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Applause, applause! Message:

Thank you for taking the time, careful attention and courage to compose these truths. Personally, for me, the timing is critical. I have been feeling lately that there is a big hole inside of me and that I would be eternally caught in this web that continually pulls at me. This 'war' from Sept. 11, the ongoing illness of my mother and the latest go around with my father in cardiac intensive care, have left me, I guess, vulnerable. Now I regognize that same vulnerabiliy of nearly thirty years ago that allowed me to accept M and k. I thought it was real, he was real and that this hole inside me was just waiting for the real deal. It all fit and my world, the world at large and life finally made sense. Gee, if the lord incarnate arrives and tells you you're so sick the doctor can't even tell you how sick you are but the pill of knowledge will make you completely well..........(I have that DLM stashed somewhere)........ K numbed this hole, filled this hole and was soothing. Now I understand it is a temporary anesthetic because the hole is still there. It is something that I have to understand and deal with whatever created it to begin with. You may not have enjoyed stating facts about M and things he said and did, but it is the actual facts that help me understand the fake and falseness of it all. The 'tit' comment tells me how lowly M's regard is for the premie women that love him with their innermost heart. The fact that he has known about Jagdeo and doesn't want to put himself at risk for a lawsuit, forget about EV, and let untold amount of children suffer being raped, again and again and again, how can anyone stay and now come screaming forward to testify for Abi? These facts are the facts that aren't open to biased opinions. They are just facts that blare out truth. About people who post here under the guise of ex premies that cause the flaming you spoke of, it occurred to me yesterday that they are probably plants by M to derail topics and redirect topics, that hit too close for comfort to M., and get ex's at each other's throats to keep off topic. Peole who are not the obvious Catweasles but people who those here earnestly believe to be ex's. I'm so disgusted by M. and his corporate shenanigans yet I'll give him this, he's one smart cookie to have surrounded himself with people that will go down with the ship to stay with the master of illusion. They don't know where to go and what to do. They are utterly dependent upon keeping the facade. Ultimately, we all have to deal with the gaping hole that leaving k leaves. We all have to deal with the lost years. Most of all, we all have to deal with the hardest fact of all... he wasn't the lord incarnate. Thank you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 22:12:54 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: btdt Subject: ***Applause! Applause! BTDT!! BEST OF*** Message:

Dear Btdt, You, Abi, and so many others have written things that make me understand that I am not alone in the suffering of life after the cult. I sat in front of a bonfire with hubby tonight, listening to animals walking around in the woods...Life is great, yet that hole you speak of inside you is what I have felt for so long since I realized that Maharaji is a fraud. When you said: We all have to deal with the lost years. Most of all, we all have to deal with the hardest fact of all... he wasn't the lord incarnate. This says it all for me. I really liked your post. The good part is that the hole is starting to fill up with my real self. For good, bad, bratty, bitchy, smart, strident, elequent or rude, I am finding my way in the reality of my life. That is the real richness of living. Not needing HIM! Not wanting him. Not forgiving him if it is particularly not your style, and not worshipping him and giving up all his false brainwashing lies. I find my solace in nature. Art. Music. My family. My best friend and lifemate. It's not the same for everybody. That's just how I live. A bonfire in the dark where stars spark at night. Outside and up in the sky, not inside my head, like Capt. Rawata always said. Sorry for the rambling, it's been a good day. Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:13:48 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Excellent both of you, Cynth and Vicki Message:

It is this difficulty of leaving someone in whom we once placed all our hopes for a more beautiful and peaceful world that makes me take posts like the Pam's seriously and why I flew off the handle because it was anonymous. Francesca and Chuck will tell you that none of us took any allegations seriously until Dettmers started psoting under his real name. Sometimes I think the old time exes have forgotten the difficulties of exiting. It's been 9 months for me since I started posting here and I still have ''flashbacks'' which is what I call them....like suddenly realizing that I used to be a very trustful person who had complete faith in the basic goodness of the universe. Then I took that faith and put it in a Hindu businessman from Hardwar. It kind of tainted my faith and I do not like to feel cynical and pessimistic. But the cult thingy gets less important everyday however I hope I don't forget how hard it was for me so that I become callous to newbies.

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:00:22 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? Message:

Steve Quint applied to the Recent Ex forum and was rejected as per the following: Dear Steve, Thanks for your note asking about membership at Recent Exes. My co-FA and I have been discussing your email and have decided that this wouldn't be a good time for you to become a member there. Our site is undergoing alot of growing pains at the moment. Here is my concern: From your posts on forum 7, I have noticed that at times you need extra support that we are not equipped to give at Recent Exes. We are small and the FAs are busy professionals who expect members to be mature and self-managing, to not be disruptive, to not flame, and to try to resolve problems quickly and off the site. I do not mean to imply that you do not have a lot to offer and I wish you all the best. If anyone is a recent ex, it's Steve. He spent his entire adult life in the cult and only exitted about a year or so ago. He himself has acknowledged that he suffers from certain chronic mental difficulties but he's also a smart, sincere guy who does not, contrary to the insulting, patronizing suggestion of this email, 'disrupt' or 'flame' people. From time to time, he's posted that he's depressed, sometimes deeply so, but it's not as if he's bothered anyone overmuch in terms of hand-holding or the like. Maybe the wonderful folk on the Recent Ex forum are all 'busy professionals' like the FA's. Maybe they have no deep issues to resolve around Maharaji. Maybe they're all cracker-jack 'self-managers'. Or maybe RE is just a precious little clique that loves itself a little too dearly. I couldn't believe you guys did this. Shame on you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:23:51 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hear, hear! Jim and Steve Quint Message:

Steve has made the same or fewer faux pas here than I have and is a decent man who learns from his errors and apologises. Recently I was invited to join by several members of the password forum and I declined politely. The fact is that its secrecy and cliquishness remind me of a.....yep, cult. Steve, you are well out of it. Be thankful that you were not accepted as it would have stunted your growth just as all closed circles stunt growth, e.g. the premie cult. I hope you will phone me on Monday as promised.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:04:52 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Hear, hear! Jim and Steve Quint Message:

Thanks for the offer, Pat. I got another email from the Recent Exes FA and they seemed angry that their email got posted on F7, saying that they would have preferred to discuss it privately. Sounds like just the kind of attitude I or we are trying to get away from, fear of airing things out in public. Oh that the cult would air things out in public, what a better world this would be. Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:03:26 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Fear of airing thing in public, huh??? Message:

Steve, Why in heaven's name were you applying to a password protected Forum where people are keeping interactions confidential, if you have a wish to air everything in public? Some people do NOT want to air everything they have to say on a public forum such as this one, where it can be read by EV monitors and, if people are particulary sensitive, folks who will criticize their views. And some people don't want retalization from premies that they may know, current spouses, ex-spouses, whatever. There are many reasons. If that's not for you, why the heck did you apply? Live and let live. Different strokes for different folks. I don't know why many people are so quick to critize things that are simply -- not for them. Best wishes, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:14:07 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Come on, Fran Message:

Steve, Why in heaven's name were you applying to a password protected Forum where people are keeping interactions confidential, if you have a wish to air everything in public? Some people do NOT want to air everything they have to say on a public forum such as this one, where it can be read by EV monitors and, if people are particulary sensitive, folks who will criticize their views. And some people don't want retalization from premies that they may know, current spouses, ex-spouses, whatever. There are many reasons. If that's not for you, why the heck did you apply? Live and let live. Different strokes for different folks. I don't know why many people are so quick to critize things that are simply -- not for them. Best wishes, Francesca --- What would you have had Steve do? Shut up about it out of some sense of loyalty or respect to the wonderfully mature people of RE who, unlike him, are professionals, flame-free and non-disruptive and capable of such mature self-management? Sounds a bit like a witch's test: if you sink and drown you're okay. Sounds like a bunch of snobs to me.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:43:24 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: You refuse to get it Message:

Steve said that: we are trying to get away from, fear of airing things out in public. I repeat. What is the purpose of joining a password protected Forum if this is how you feel. Steve didn't start this mess, YOU did, by posting the FA's e-mail to Steve. I understand why Steve would be upset by being told he couldn't join. He could have expressed that to the FA first. He could have even posted here himself. No, he went to you, and you are enjoying making a big stink out of it. It seems that you and others have a great degree of disdain for RecentExes, and now those folks can all join the 'pile on.' The degree of bullying and groupthink that occurs on this forum is exactly why some people would prefer to communicate by private e-mails and post on RecentExes. Why do you attack people who don't want to do things your way? Do you think it helps the culture of this Forum? Do people think that intimidating folks who choose to be anonymous helps things? Sorry, sounds like a bunch of snobs to me. Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:52:21 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: No, Fran, YOU don't get it, I/m afraid Message:

I repeat. What is the purpose of joining a password protected Forum if this is how you feel. But Steve wasn't joining anything. He wasn't good enough. What you'd prefer, apparently, is that he just keep your precious RE's rejection of him secret, out of respect, I guess, for the venerable institution of the club he could never join. You're protesting too much, Fran. 'Intimidating'?? Bullying?? Group think?? If that's what you guys on RE think this is, boy, you must feel so much ..... what? Purer or something? More, ahem, sincere? More independently-minded in any event, huh? Look, you have no reason in the world to believe that Steve wouldn't have played by your clubhouse rules if you'd let him join. Your case now -- that he really wasn't interested anyway, whether he knows it or not -- is ridiculous. Face it, you just didn't want Steve to join because you all have this little image of yourselves that Steve doesn't enhance. Talk about 'group think'!

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:57:01 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're assuming a lot Message:

You're assuming that I post on RE. You're assuming that I'm in charge of people who join. That we're in a little club that has an image Steve won't enhance. You're wong about most of that. And I certainly don't think I'm purer. You're being rude, demeaning and you're a bully Jim. Every word you say reinforces the reason why a site like RecentExes would exist. The pushier you are, the worse you make it. You STILL don't get it Jim. You're a bully. Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:54:54 (EDT) From: Moley Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: Steve Quint Subject: Steve - you would have had my vote Message:

But I didn't see the relevant thread on RE. I'd better not say anything else here cos, as a member of RE, I am bound to confidentiality. Love Moley

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 00:29:00 (EDT) From: FA, Recent Exes Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? Message:

You're right, Jim. That email does sound really insensitive. I am a burned out FA right now. Recent Exes isn't perfect. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have value, just as this forum has value. Steve if you are reading this, I apologize. I've written you another email. The first one really wasn't about you, it was my own burnedouted-ness talking. Recent Exes FA

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:27:26 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: FA, Recent Exes Subject: So, what's your name? Message:

What is the point of hiding behind anonymity once you are out of a cult?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:00:57 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: reasons for hiding! Message:

What is the point of hiding behind anonymity once you are out of a cult? --- Mine;- 1)Because I have been asked by my husband not to. He does not feel ready to get totally out and i respect that. There is much talk of EV monitoring on this site. 2)Because I have become ridiculously attached to my handle. My old reasons;- 1)Because I wasn't totally out (in myself) and didn't want people I cared about finding out before I told them. because I had some shame about posting here.. it felt like betrayal. Possible reasons I can imagine other people might have;- Fear of CaC reprisals or similar. A secretive or very private personality Wanting to be different from how they have been. playing around For goodness sakes Pat I didn't know you were so intolerant! Peg

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:46:34 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Peg Subject: Pat's in a bad mood today Peg. Message:

I think he got out of bed on the wrong side or something. One good reason to keep a Forum Administrator anonymous, is because it stops the job being a personal issue. It also helps if people share the job. Maybe you should get an assistant, to do shifts at the weekend or something. Use a regular poster who shows symptoms of sanity. If the forum is administered anonymously, using agreed guidelines, (which is usually the case, though the guidelines may be vague), then it shouldn't matter who does the job anyway. Anth been burnt out by a forum too.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:04:50 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Peg Subject: Peg, see what I say about this Message:

... in my post to the PAM above. I don't expect you to say who you are but I do expect PAMs to. Anyway, I know who you are and we have mutual friends and I can vouch for you.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:19:29 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: PS Peg, I just answered your email Message:

and sent it off and suddenly realized that you thought of one DB and I was thinking of another. I meant give my love to RB whom we call D...

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:52:09 (EDT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: FA, Recent Exes Subject: Re: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? Message:

Well said. Cheers

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:59:40 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: What exactly is the 'Recent Ex' forum? Message:

My turmoil over Recent ex's was this: I could not figure it out whatsoever. I did not fit in, I knew it, I posted that I should get out but had volunteered at the time to help technically. I can't tell you at all what it's about. I never did get the hang of it. Anyone reading my posts there would have laughed their butts off at my attempts to be something I am not, which failed miserably. Did any one person there cause me to feel this way? no of course not. Yet the rule to not flame left me confused as to how to conduct myself. Not that I have to flame all the time, or even most of the time. that isn't it. It's more like, there is this rule so what does that mean that I am a member here? Can I say this or that or is that too inflammatory? should I not say this or that or is that holding back? eek!! Too confusing. It could just be my particular personality that can't grasp the subtlties (but weren't YOU were the cause of RE being created in the first place Jim :) ok that is a joke no?) I imagine they are going through more of an identity crisis than growing pains but I don't really know. Steve I am sorry that happened to you but you are not missing anything that I can see. Aside from the roller coaster ride the 'official' forum goes through, it is as ok as anything. Conflict can help with growth and healing as long as the dosage isn't too high and only you can protect yourself from overdosing. And applying for membership is quite an odd thing, no? What if you were recruited? Think how confusing THAT was.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:33:19 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Selene Subject: Well said, Selene. Message:

Who the hell wants to ''join'' a club after being in a fucking cult? And you have to be ''approved.'' Shades of Elan Vital! Also, as far as I know, we are talking about adults most of whom are close to fifty for fucks sake. This has made me mad as hell. Sorry for the cussing. If had to have my hand held at fifty I'd probably kill myself. How dumb can you get!

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Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:25:05 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Jim Subject: re Steve Message:

For what its worth.. For all his emotional problems or whatever they are- Steve is not high maintenance. He has resolve,courage,sensitivity and an outside support system that is always part of his process. In fact, I think how he percieves and expresses the ups and downs of his 'ex-ness' would be a help to recent exes.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 02:59:32 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Hear! Hear! Message:

I am glad the Recent Exs FA has acknowledged an arror was made in the response to Steve. Sure he may have seemed to be wobbly immediately after his exit. That's OK, and I don't recall Steve ever flaming as such. No Steve, if I wanted to cite a person as mature and self-managing, who neither disrupts nor flames then you'd get my vote alright! Now we are back on topic, with war discussions taking place on AG, I hope you will feel there is plenty of safe space for you here. I for one enjoy your take on things, your wry humour amd quiet understanding. Stick around, Steve!

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