Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 07, 2001 To: Oct 14, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


gerry -:- Scott's getting a little time out -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 12:34:51 (EDT)
__ don -:- Re: Scott's getting a little time out -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 05:23:13 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- to don: nope [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 09:25:12 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Problems w/ the speed of threads anyone? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:14:01 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: Problems w/ the speed of threads anyone? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:55:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Thanks Gerry for the Flame Free Link -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 19:55:09 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave }( -:- I am a troll -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:03:13 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- See above -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
__ bill -:- I trust Gerry -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:00:28 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Just when I thought we had an libertarian -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:46:21 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- What do you suggest? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:58:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- And I suggest... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:40:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- And I suggest... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:39:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That won't work, Scott -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:09:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Yeah that's a fair point -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:41:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Yeah that's a fair point -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:51:38 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Scott's getting a little time out -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:32:10 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Welcome to the club, Rick :) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:57:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Welcome to the club, Rick :) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:26:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Jerry and Joe -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:05:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Welcome to the club, Rick :) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:46:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Welcome to the club, Rick :) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:32:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- I thought recently that you didnt post enough. [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:02:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- I've missed your posts too Joe (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:18:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, bill and hamzen -- where I was (OT) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:25:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Thanks, bill and hamzen -- where I was (OT) -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:37:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Chicago - Beautiful??? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:48:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, very beautiful -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 19:23:54 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: Scott's getting a little time out -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:42:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Scott's getting a little time out -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:11:29 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Not Really -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 14:43:51 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: Not Really -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:13:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Not a bad idea, Gerry -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:06:35 (EDT)

salam -:- what's your say -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:27:37 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: what's your say -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:44:34 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- If I'm not mistaken... -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:30:23 (EDT)

Abi -:- Elan Vital denies all responsibility -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:12:12 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Wow from me, too -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:49:24 (EDT)
__ Bob -:- Clarity -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:55:57 (EDT)
__ WOW -:- Re: Elan Vital denies all responsibility -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:25:48 (EDT)
__ Jean*Michel -:- Update for the Jagdeo page? -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:15:01 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- I'm working on it...... -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:49:37 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Truly disgusting -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:30:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Re: Truly disgusting -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:10:56 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Update for the Jagdeo page? -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:28:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Go Abi -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:22:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- correction -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:45:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Abi -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 02:51:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Okay, but a bit of honesty would be nice -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:07:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Okay, but a bit of honesty would be nice -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:50:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Yes, Cynthia, gag order stinks -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:00:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nick -:- Re: correction -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:56:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:23:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ WOW Again -:- Re: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:37:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Z -:- Re: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 14:39:52 (EDT)

RichMandrake -:- Tony Gwynn...A Credit to His Race..(ot) -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:47:39 (EDT)
__ Mr. Dooley -:- Sorry but Teddy Ballgame was -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:55:09 (EDT)
__ __ RichMandrake -:- Ahh Yes...Another San Diegan.. -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr. Dooley -:- Re: Ahh Yes...Another San Diegan.. -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 05:30:05 (EDT)

Abi -:- Frank Sommerville again -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:13:35 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Re: Frank Sommerville again -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:48:49 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- professional rules, my ass -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:10:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Yogi Bear -:- What does it take to become a member -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:52:23 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- What Mr Vile said -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- That is really sick. -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:17:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Oh My Gawd! -:- Re: What Mr Vile said -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:37:41 (EDT)

Funny, as ever.. -:- Private Eye..(ot) -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 20:13:44 (EDT)
__ don -:- Re: Private Eye..(ot) -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:58:05 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- The new apartheid in the cult -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 18:23:28 (EDT)
__ bill -:- I also wish you had been there what a hoot [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:22:16 (EDT)
__ CW -:- Re: The new apartheid in the cult -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:19:40 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- The usual articulate response -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:41:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:26:41 (EDT)
__ don -:- Re: The new apartheid in the cult -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:21:01 (EDT)
__ such -:- Re: The new apartheid in the cult -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:43:41 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: The new apartheid in the cult -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:09:07 (EDT)
__ never a Kitty -:- I can see it now -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 20:12:01 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Question, Pat -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:04:57 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- As an ancient fag, Joe -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:45:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS: ''Thou shalt not propagate to friends.'' -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:22:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Kittys, Pewks ... what about the Fur Balls? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 12:36:28 (EDT)

Mr. Dooley -:- re: Mr. Rawat and his message -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:30:02 (EDT)
__ don -:- Re: re: Mr. Rawat and his message -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:56:31 (EDT)
__ __ Mr. Dooley -:- Your comments are UNACCEPTABLE -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:06:55 (EDT)
__ berni -:- Re: re: Mr. Rawat and his message -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:06:46 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: re: Mr. Rawat and his message -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:10:29 (EDT)

Sir Dave }( -:- Scott - New bike faster than motorbike! -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:55:20 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Pedicabs and pedicures. -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:40:43 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Scott - New bike faster than motorbike! -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:20:14 (EDT)

Bob -:- OT (Anthrax) -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:17:53 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: OT (Anthrax) -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:25:02 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:46:27 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- a cult classic sit-com! -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:06:23 (EDT)
__ Disculta -:- Incredible, but, but, but... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:25:20 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, the article really did say that -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:55:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: No, the article really did say that -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:46:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:56:22 (EDT)
__ Susannah -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:12:32 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:15:55 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:44:40 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hypnotic videos/music -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:44:02 (EDT)
__ Brian S -:- Powerful Stuff, Jean-Michel -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:31:54 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- It could almost have been written yesterday -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:18:44 (EDT)
__ __ Brian S -:- My sentiments exactly Pat -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:44:42 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Another article in the same issue -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:22:22 (EDT)
__ __ Brian S -:- I have done several Indian -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:35:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- ***BEST OF....*** Brilliant, Brian -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:29:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- You explained that really well... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:17:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Its a very humble philosopy -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 14:30:36 (EDT)
__ berni -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:28:43 (EDT)
__ __ Susannah -:- We Were Young, Bernie -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:16:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- dear Mark Twain -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:39:32 (EDT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Today's cult same, different packaging... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:25:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ berni -:- Re: Today's cult same, different packaging... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:04:45 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- I should have read your post first, berni -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:25:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ berni -:- s'okay Pat -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:50:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Susannah -:- Recovering our MINDS -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:24:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- In New Premiespeak, Mind='Doubt Maker' -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:45:04 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:17:59 (EDT)

Toby -:- Harbouring a terrorist , or -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:52:16 (EDT)

swami j. suchabanana -:- approval of 'tactical nuclear' weapons -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:55:18 (EDT)
__ berni -:- Fighting the mindset of fanatics -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 05:41:47 (EDT)
__ __ Vera -:- possible outcomes to WW3 -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:00:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: possible outcomes to WW3 -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:10:58 (EDT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:20:52 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:29:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- ground zero -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:42:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: ground zero -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:30:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ out of your mind or in your mind? -:- Re: ground zero -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:59:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Huh? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:36:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: Huh? - typo? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:39:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Huh? - typo? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:35:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ berni -:- bombs away !!!! yee hahh -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:29:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Mischaracterization -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:50:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Scott - you've got it wrong -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 05:23:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Scott - you've got it wrong -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:30:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ berni -:- bully tactics -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:03:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- da air drops by the infidels -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:34:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susannah -:- Re: bombs away !!!! yee hahh -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:34:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I have to respond -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:18:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- ok, do it. -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:53:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Help me out a little here. -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:01:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- there ye go -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:41:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: there ye go -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:51:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- sorry I forgot -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:44:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susannah -:- They Understand Might -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:04:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: They Understand Might -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:31:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- A just war? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:12:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susannah -:- Re: A just war? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 20:07:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Me an infidel? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 22:46:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susannah -:- Re: Me an infidel? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 23:44:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- OK -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 10:16:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Salam, I thought you were an Aussie -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:18:12 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 12:34:51 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Scott's getting a little time out
Message:
Since by his own admission he has nothing to say about the topic here, Maharaji, and since he is alienating a lot of people with his war mongering and constant stirring of the political pot, he has been put in the cooler.

Also Joey has been blocked as well as don.

Maybe when this headache goes away I'll reconsider.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 05:23:13 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Scott's getting a little time out
Message:
am I blocked ?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 09:25:12 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: don
Subject: to don: nope [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:14:01 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Problems w/ the speed of threads anyone?
Message:
Am I the only having problems with this?

Unless you stay around regularly over the day or so it takes a thread to disappear, it's impossible to really involve yourself in a discussion. Quite often I also think the same depth doesn't get reached, apart from threads like abi's which are really important, disappearing while you blink. Somebody who was away for two days would have missed that one.

Maybe we could with switching to something like these forums,

http://expremie.proboards.com/

A bit slower than this one, you can't see who has posted from the thread title, but you get the whole thread, with all the posts in that thread open in one screen, it's easy to seperate off-topic from on topic, and still keep it all in one place, and important threads wouldn't disappear 'jus like that'. You also don't have to register if you don't want to, but if you do you can put graphics, flash movies etc in as your tag, the gm humour that could be displayed that way would be fun.

Not suggesting we use those forums, just suggesting them as a possibility. The speed of this forum is getting to me. I want to post, but I also want a life.
I have also nearly missed very late additions to threads recently.

Also gerry, could we have a link to the new non-flaming site put up please,
http://pub48.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=4100229455

and does anyone have a link for the 'war' discussion forum that was posted here recently?

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:55:05 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Problems w/ the speed of threads anyone?
Message:
I agree things are too fast here for many people. The solution is to stay on topic. That will slow things down considerably and threads like Abi's could be on the board longer.

I put the link up for the 'Frame Free' place Ham, but I'm not all that keen on pointing traffic out of this site. There's not that much flaming here anymore and if we stay on topic, there will be very little. I would think that we make this the main talk shop for Maharaji discussion and have OT boards for other stuff.

I don't like Proboards much at all.

Opinions, anyone?

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 19:55:09 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks Gerry for the Flame Free Link
Message:
Why not start a thread so we can all vote on it,
I do like the community off-topic stuff, but the speed of throughput here is getting silly, in a couple of months it'll be half a day and it's gone.
Maybe someone would be prepared to do the admin on an off-topic board, keep this one on topic, have a link above to the off-topic.
Either that or two boards that are mixed topics.

Maybe if we got this going you could sit there with a look of total control, 'what admin overload', when Patty gets back. What would be great is somewhere you can split the boards like Proboards, so they're on the same site, but split the topics, there must be somewhere that does that.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:03:13 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I am a troll
Message:
I don't write on-topic posts either. Better block me too.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: See above
Message:
I don't write on-topic posts either. Better block me too.


---

Never. You wrote the great Cheese Mystery and are forever sacrosant, dear Sir.

Now aint life unfair?

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:00:28 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I trust Gerry
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:46:21 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Just when I thought we had an libertarian
Message:
doing the admin here.
Come on Jerry, you can do better than that.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:58:59 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: What do you suggest?
Message:
I suggest we have a separate forum for political discussions and that we try to stay on topic, for the most part.

It's Gerry with a G, btw to distinguish me from Jerry on the US East Coast.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:40:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And I suggest...
Message:
that we broaden the topic to something that's more relevant to our lives. Besides, I've said a number of times that this terrorism business is really a cult problem with political overlays. You guys talk a lot about Maharaji gossip, but there's been very little discussion of the cult subterranean structure, which is similar for all cult groups. This one just happens to be a really mean, nasty, fullofitself, homicidal one with visions of world domination. I submit that many of the people on this forum who resent me the most (including you) would prefer that this be regarded as a *political* problem. Bush and Blair have a political problem *and* a cult problem.

But back to the gossip about our wimpy little former guru, I guess. Not that it's completely irrelevant, but there is 'Recent Exes' after all.

And Gerry, the only reason you don't still regard me as a 'nice guy' is that you really really really hate my message. I'm as nice, and as insufferable, as I ever was.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:39:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And I suggest...
Message:
that we broaden the topic to something that's more relevant to our lives. Besides, I've said a number of times that this terrorism business is really a cult problem with political overlays. You guys talk a lot about Maharaji gossip, but there's been very little discussion of the cult subterranean structure, which is similar for all cult groups. This one just happens to be a really mean, nasty, fullofitself, homicidal one with visions of world domination. I submit that many of the people on this forum who resent me the most (including you) would prefer that this be regarded as a *political* problem. Bush and Blair have a political problem *and* a cult problem.

But back to the gossip about our wimpy little former guru, I guess. Not that it's completely irrelevant, but there is 'Recent Exes' after all.

And Gerry, the only reason you don't still regard me as a 'nice guy' is that you really really really hate my message. I'm as nice, and as insufferable, as I ever was.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:09:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That won't work, Scott
Message:
Scott, we can't broaden the topic safely here without all sorts of fallout and dissension. Sad but true. I've seen many good articles I've wanted to post or link to here over the last few days but I don't because I know where that will lead. The cult parallel is overhwelming, true. However, once we get into that people start talking about the so-called legitimate or reasonable grievances motivating the IF terrorists and then we've got trouble.

Recent Ex's is a small, very protected closed shop where people aren't supposed to argue. That's hardly what we want or need.

So, like it or not, I think the best thing is indeed keeping this forum focussed on our former, wimpy-ass guru. Does his significance pale in light of recent events? Sure. So be it.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:41:38 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yeah that's a fair point
Message:
Think there is also an argument that a balance of off-topic posts are important too, it makes it more 'real' here, community shit etc, and I say this as someone who had difficulties with a lot of the political posts.
One of the the major problems as a premie was divorcing yourself from the 'real' world.

But my point before was re the blocking 'style'. If you're thinking of blocking couldn't you put a post saying that, and why and see what responses you get.
The fact that we are a free speech environment for people who have forgotten what that means, carries a lot of clout. That we don't just close people off, cause we don't like what they say, is very powerful I think. Idiotic jibberish spammers fine, no-one would disagree with that I think.
I also think doing it more democratically would reduce some of the flak on you I think, when you make decisions people don't agree with, oh and by the way, appreciate you taking this on, am sure you had better things to do with your time etc.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:51:38 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Yeah that's a fair point
Message:
The fact that we are a free speech environment for people who have forgotten what that means, carries a lot of clout. That we don't just close people off, cause we don't like what they say, is very powerful I think.

Yup. What a juxtoposition to the silence of the lambs in the cult. I'll make a more concerted effort in curbing my considerable impulsiveness in the heat of the moment. Not fair when I'm holding the 'stick.'

I like your idea of taking blocking more seriously and having discussion about it first. Democracy does require participation (the voting percentage of those qualified to do so is pathetic in this country.)

Did you see that Life Is Great has gone password protected? Maybe CD is just playing with the idea like when he turned on the profanity filter which drove everyone nuts...

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:32:10 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Scott's getting a little time out
Message:
Gerry,
I decided a couple of days ago to no longer respond to Scott's posts because he became so intensely obnoxious. But I don't see any hard and fast rules he violated.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:57:02 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Welcome to the club, Rick :)
Message:
I think the FA position isn't the easiest job, and I appreciate those like Gerry who do it and take the abuse that seems to come along with it. And I have always been against blocking. But if someone is never on topic, I think it is completely legitimate for the FA to ask why they are here, and if in that person's opinion, the OT discussions are taking over the real purpose of the forum, I think that's a legitimate position.

Look, we are a fun group. We have a lot of smart people here and I'm sure Scott enjoys talking to all of us because we are all so brilliant and insightful. ::)) I do the same thing from time to time. But hopefully the FA is taking some care at keeping the actual purpose of this Forum in mind. I'm glad at least somebody does.

Maybe the way to help the FA out is for each of us to try to stay on topic and keep pulling back to topic when we stray. Remember, there are lots and lots of premies, ex-premies, aspirants, etc., reading this forum and we should keep them in mind. They probably couldn't care less what our political opinions are and have come here for actual information and discussion about Maharaji from ex-premies. I'm speaking to myself here as well and we probably shouldn't have hard and fast rules, but this really is an issue. There are lots of other places to talk about all kinds of other stuff.

Anyhow, Scott isn't blocked anymore, so it's a moot issue.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:26:13 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Welcome to the club, Rick :)
Message:
Maybe the way to help the FA out is for each of us to try to stay on topic and keep pullin back to topic when we stray.

Well, what do you do if you're just fucking bored with the 'topic'? What do you do then, stifle? Don't forget, Scott is a former devotee of the Big M like everybody else here. Think of all those days he was squirming at satsang just bursting to discuss the latest political controversy or the newest invention in cycling, knowing that he never could, so he just kept silent or instead espoused the obligatory accolades for M & K. Let's just say he's getting his revenge. Good for him. I feel the same way. It's a breath of fresh air to discuss whatever it is you want to, whenever you want to, for however LONG you want to, without somebody telling you you've stepped out of line. We all know who we are here and what we're about. But sometimes talking about that takes second place to other subjects we find more interesting. I see no harm in that.

Remember, there are lots and lots of premies, ex-premies, aspirants, etc., reading this forum and we should keep them in mind. They probably couldn't care less what our political opinions are and have come here for actual information and discussion about Maharaji from ex-premies.

Well then they should open their mouths and introduce themselves to let us know they're there. I for one haven't got the slightest idea how many lurkers there are or what they think of us. How are we going to know if they don't tell us?

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:05:43 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry and Joe
Message:
I can see the importance of not having the forum disrupted but the political situation lately is extraordinary. In the past, the forum naturally got back on track after other topics temporarily deflected the focus. That's already happening, so I don't see any reason for concern.

The small amount of posts about maharaji over the last month reflects the lack of interest. That's just now starting to change, and I suspect interest in discussing maharaji will increase unless something major develops in the news.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:46:38 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Welcome to the club, Rick :)
Message:
Jerry, I have to agree with you mostly. People should be able to discuss anything they want for as long as they want. There are lots of outlets for political discussion but very, very few for people who are questioning the cult or attempting to rid themselves of its influence.

What's the problem with having a forum exclusively for the discussion of current events? We could have a prominent link from here to there.

When I'm feeling better, I plan on doing a little sprucing up of this place, to make it better for all and hopefully I'll get some suggestions as to how to do that.

As for lurkers, I don't know how many there are out there of course. But I can say that we have had over 300,000 page views for this forum in August and September combined. Maybe you can extrapolate from there.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:32:22 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Welcome to the club, Rick :)
Message:
Jerry, like I said, I'm not in favor of hard and fast rules, but there is a subject here and I was just suggesting that we keep that in mind, on a personal basis, not as a result of some rule. Personally, I have a hard time with rules, maybe as a reaction to those 5 commandments Maharaji said we had to follow for all those years until he started pretending he never did.

As for the lurkers, there have always been lots and lots of them, and I can't tell you why they dont' post, but for many people it's very difficult. I know one person who has lurked here for years and has posted exactly ONCE. Others might just be afraid, and premies, well they are in a cult so what can you expect. Whatever the reason, I was just saying that the audience of this forum is lots more than the people who post.

Since my primary purpose for being here in the first place, is to try and help people get out of the cult, I just wanted to keep that in perspective.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:02:12 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I thought recently that you didnt post enough. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:18:52 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I've missed your posts too Joe (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:25:46 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Thanks, bill and hamzen -- where I was (OT)
Message:
I was in Chicago last week for a conference and the weather was fantastic. It was like Summer. Flying was no problem, and in Chicago all the talk was about the fears of working in the Sears Tower which is the tallest building in the USA. But that seemed to be dying down as well.

I don't care what anybody says, Chicago is a beautiful city. I almost wanted to move back there and then I thought about the Winters.

After the conference, I drove 100 miles to my Mom's house and went to her 80th birthday party. It was great fun, with cousins and friends I hadn't seen in years. I hope I am as healthy and coherent as my Mother is if I am lucky enough to make it to 80!

So, that's why I wasn't around posting. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:37:09 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Thanks, bill and hamzen -- where I was (OT)
Message:
You know, you might be pleased to hear that if a person lives past 50, thier AVERAGE life expectancy is 88 for a woman.
I figure your mom is above average :)
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 18:48:59 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Chicago - Beautiful???
Message:
when I was in Chicago, although I was impressed by the view from the Sears Tower, I was also shocked by the lack of greenery. The only trees I could see were to the north by the lake. Even NY has small gardens between the apartment blocks. London from the air is positively green.

John.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 19:23:54 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes, very beautiful
Message:
I stayed in Lakeview (about 3000 North), and it was very green and lush, and the trees were beginning to turn colors, even though it was also very urban. Lakeview used to be kind of seedy when I lived in Chicago and was a raging ashram cult member. Now it's gotten very trendy and has a large gay population.

Then, on Thursday, I had to visit a client in suburban Barrington, and it reminded me of Ireland it was so lush and green.

I agree, though, there are certain parts of Chicago that are nothing but buildings and not so green.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:42:44 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Scott's getting a little time out
Message:
I have to read at least some of Scott's post as my job here. I can't and won't let him turn this into a political forum. That's partly why I blocked him.

I consider his relentless OT pursuits to be a form of spam, regardless of how well thought out and presented they may be.

And his determination to air out this little bit of forum laundry on this site is trouble. I don't want another meltdown. Do you think I should lock this thread to end it here?

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:11:29 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Scott's getting a little time out
Message:
You the boss. I defer to whatever your decision is. Conveniently for Scott, he only displays his obnoxiousness to those he disagrees with, so naturally those are the only people that will speak in favor of banning him. But I have to say, I've posted as much OT as Scott.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 14:43:51 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not Really
Message:
Look, this is just a transparent attempt to quell statements and opinions Gerry's uncomfortable with. As him why he doesn't open up the forum to debate about his suitability as administrator if you think this block has anything to to with Gerry's tender regard for exes. He quells when he feels he can get away with it, and if not he threatens. That simple. Check out AOFfor my dfense since Jerry (with a G) doesn't feel I've earrned that respect over the many years I've been posting here.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:13:52 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Not Really
Message:
OK Scott, you win. I can't block you. You are way too clever for that. Actually I was just in the Admin area to unblock you but I see that is unnecessary now.

I've stated many times that I'm willing to hand over the password to other more qualified people. Until then, how about your starting a forum for ex-premies who wish to discuss current affairs? I'd make a prominent link here and I think this might be a suitable working solution for all parties.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 17:06:35 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not a bad idea, Gerry
Message:
What do you think, Scott? I think starting a forum that focuses on current events would be right up your alley. You up for it?
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:27:37 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: what's your say
Message:
CNN is taking a poll regarding whether or not International monitors should be sent into Israel.

CNN Poll

http://home.netscape.com/ex/shak/international/packages/mideast/

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:44:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: what's your say
Message:
I am surprised at the current results of that poll. I'd have thought that American's would want to have UN peace-keeping troops in the Palestinian Territories and Israel. Maybe (since it is on an American site) the visitors don't understand the log jam that that area of the world is in now.

Personally, if I had supreme power, I would ban all the current religions and erase them from people's memories. The world would be better for it.

.. Dave


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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:30:23 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: If I'm not mistaken...
Message:
The Israelis will never agree to monitoring because the last time they did their hands were tied in spite on continued attacks by the Palestinians. They want to maintain their right to retaliate if the Palestinians don't uphold their end of the bargain as they haven't previously. I'm sure somebody out there will challenge this but, hey, I only know what I read in the news. You know something else?

The Israelis are banging their heads against the wall holding onto the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Strategically, it's probably to their advantage to but, politically, it's a disaster. World opinion is largely against them.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:12:12 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Elan Vital denies all responsibility
Message:
Dear All,

thanks for your support. I will be taking this further elsewhere.

Thought you might be interested in some more of the things which Sommerville said. It will give you an insight into how they operate. But really , there are no suprises for those who already know.

On the 11th of May he stated that Marcia Lienter hired him. On the 23 May he claimed that Jagdeo had been removed from Elan Vital and its affiliates and that Elan Vital had lost track of Jagdeo.

On 21 June he suggested I release all claims I might have against EV. Also that EV 'denies any wrongdoing'.

On 29th of August he offers a months therapy on the condition that I remain silent about EV. 'Elan Vital denies all responsibility, legal and moral, for any tragedies that you have suffered'. He asked me to sign on the dotted line below to signify my acceptance of their total and utter lack of responsibility. And to agree to silence. I did not sign it. I showed the document to my therapist who was deeply disgusted by it.

During one conversation with him he also suggested that Elan Vital would fly me to Hawaii (without legal representation) to sign a 'release' document which would basically ensure my total silence for the rest of my life.

Behind all of this is Rawat. Dr Pascotto, my father and Lietner all kissed this man's feet at Amaroo. They sang arti to him. Pascotto escorted my father through the darshan line.

Rawat is the one who made Jagdeo a Mahatama and financed his trips around the world where he had access to many children.

Rawat lied to my father when he met him at Amaroo. Rawat claimed that this was the first time he had ever heard about Jagdeo's abuse of children but Dr Pascotto told me to my face in a hotel in Brisbane days later that he and Lietner had done a report on Jagdeo and presented it to Rawat several years ago.

I'm going to write it all up in chronological order as soon as I can.
Abi

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 12:49:24 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Wow from me, too
Message:
Abi,

I wonder how you held up under all that abuse and the involvement by the cult of your own father and all the rest.

I think the bottom line is this: If Prem Pal Singh Rawat had any integrity whatsoever, he would make a public statement about this, and actually show some speck of leadership. Intead, he lies to you and follows his usual course of pretending he has nothing to do with it and leave it all to his henchmen to pile on even more abuse. All the while, Elan Vital writes shameless press releases blaming the victim. If anyone wanted to see an example of the moral bankruptcy of Maharaji and his cult, they need look no further than this awful mess.

Meanwhile, the Andersen twins, Mitch Ditkoff and others write facile, dishonest crap in defense of their master on their transparently white-washed website. It's so pathetic it would be laughable if there weren't real victims, like Abi and others involved.

I think you are right, Abi, that recording all this and making it available to anyone who wants to see it, is probably the most powerful thing you can do to fight back for yourself and others.

You sure have my admiration, Abi. I hope to be able to meet you in person some day.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:55:57 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Clarity
Message:
I can't believe that you held up under the pressure of signing away your rights! It takes extraordinary clarity to do this! It makes me wonder if there are any victims out there who did not have your clarity and who did renounce their right to speak out?
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:25:48 (EDT)
From: WOW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Elan Vital denies all responsibility
Message:
Abi- this is really revealing and powerful stuff.
It shows so much about rawat and his minions...
I feel for you, in going through so much.

If you can write all of this up, it will add more to the ongoing indictment of rawat.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:15:01 (EDT)
From: Jean*Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Update for the Jagdeo page?
Message:
That's where it belongs I guess ....
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:49:37 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean*Michel
Subject: I'm working on it......
Message:
Watch this space.....
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:30:40 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jean*Michel
Subject: Truly disgusting
Message:
I am so disgusted by this I can find no words. It is, as you have said Abi, a further abuse.

Please take care of yourself (see my 'dear Abi' post below).

The fact that you have proof that Rawat lied to your father is major, big stuff, on the same level as 'he killed a man' etc. I hope that this makes you feel empowered and that you are taking great care of your body and emotions in every possible way.

All love and support to you,

love Disculta

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:10:56 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Truly disgusting
Message:
I agree Disculta,

Abi, your abuse and the abuse of your dad is enrageing and
I am glad you will relate the story.
I personally will take action.
I missed his event in la recently but I intend to make others.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:28:44 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jean*Michel
Subject: Re: Update for the Jagdeo page?
Message:
Yes, I'm going to write it all down. Want to be sure I get all the deatils right though. It was a bit of a nightmare. I taped the phone calls from Sommerville and gave the tapes to a friend who is putting it all down. Don't know if I'll ever get the tape from the Dr Pascotto meeting though. They probably got their lawyers to analyse it.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:22:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Go Abi
Message:
Get your strength from knowing that you simply want the truth to be told and for someone to take responsibility and fess up and apologise.

The problem in dealing with the cult mind is that they assume the worst about everyone and probably think you are milking them for money which I know you are not. At least that is not my impression of you. I believe that you want closure and justice and human decency.

There lies your strength. The fact that they want to buy you off means that they do not understand your need for simple honesty and justice. I wish you all the strength and tenacity in the world.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:45:54 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: correction
Message:
Hi Pat,
I've really let go of Elan Vital or Rawat ever saying that they are remotely sorry for what jagdeo did to me and others. The simply don't give a toss. But yes, I am sure that they think I am Mind, and that all I ever wanted is lots of money and probably made the whole thing up so I could harm their God.

I don't think I'll ever get closure from them or anything like a decent human response. I have to find closure in myself.

They can't hurt me anymore than they already have (I hope). Being brought up in that cult was a nightmare really. Just glad there is a world out there which is real, a space to see the cult for what it is

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 02:51:01 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: mcpass1@earthlink.net
To: Abi
Subject: Abi
Message:
Dear Abi,

All the best to you and may the grace, love, peace and strength of the Most High God surround, fill and completely and totally heal you. Courage is a rare trait in this world. The truth will set you free.
Cling to it and be at peace.

All this talk about signing things that disavow responsibility reminds me of corporations that make things which hurt or kill people, and when a victim or survivor comes forth to file their grievance, the corporation makes a simuilar offer, money or something else of value in return for silence. This goes on alot, thanks to the love of money which is the root of all evil. This sort of transaction makes it possible for our brothers and sisters to become hurt or killed as well, which could be avoided by conscientious and conscious action to make things right. It is the very few, the very brave and those who really live in the heart of God, who can stand up to that sort of pressure and not bend. We are our brothers' and sisters' keeper. In a healthy body, the cells all work together to keep the body healthy. Only in a sick body do cells not report a threat or problem to the central communication system and not get a response and a correction to the problem.

I had to give you some juice after reading your posts, I could not just sit silent at my computer and not reach out after feeling your energy through cyberspace. Cyberspace, shmyberspace! That is just the channel, we are here now and communicating.

Once again, all the best, and more power to you.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:07:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Okay, but a bit of honesty would be nice
Message:
Yes, Abi, I too no longer expect the cult to do the decent thing but they need to tell the truth instead of weaseling around.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:50:39 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Okay, but a bit of honesty would be nice
Message:
Hi Pat,

There is nothing wrong with looking for financial restitution for abuse that took place in the cult. For them to offer abi ONE month of therapy is a joke.

The cult is too wrapped up in getting $$ for his lardness, and not a penny for Abi. They aren't going to tell the truth, it would open too many doors for others to sue. And placing a gag order on any settlement is the absolute worst thing to do to a child sexual abuse survivor. Secrets and lies are the basis of abuse manipulation. That gag order stuff bothers me a lot.

But, I don't expect any truth-telling by M or EV. Maharaji simply doesn't care. He's probably out shopping for a new jet or something.

Hope you're well, Pat,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:00:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Yes, Cynthia, gag order stinks
Message:
I agree that financial restitution is needed too but not at the cost of a gag order. Secrets and lies are the realm of cults and conspiracies.

I'm fine. I hope you are well and happy.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:56:51 (EDT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: correction
Message:
Abi

I don't know you, but have read your posts over the past 10 months. Your so honourable stance and your strength fill me with admiration. EV's response just fills me with shame that I towed the party line and unthinkingingly represented m. as flawless/immaculate for 28+ years. I am left speechless when I read your account of m denying any prior knowledge of your situation.

I am filled with shame. He is shameless.

All the very best to you

Nick

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:23:21 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:28:22 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit
Message:
Abi,
I'm literally speechless reading this.

Please have all copies copied and stashed in several safe places of whatever coorespondence has taken place.

This is so disgusting. You are a very brave lady.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:37:55 (EDT)
From: WOW Again
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit
Message:
Abi-

This is so unbelievable.
Please hang in there, and know that by only going for the truth, and justice, you are far stronger and more credible than they will ever be.
All of these revelations paint an ever more revealing picture of the cult and it's mindset.

It's unbelievable that ev has even stated that they deny any 'moral' wrongdoing for your situation.
It's logical that the cult would try to deny any 'legal' wrongdoing, but to extend it to the moral level is unbelievable.

Have any of their dealings with this whole issue ever been 'moral'?

Your bravery is inspiring.

PS: Does anyone know if Sommerville ever lived in Miami, Fla. during the deca days?

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 14:39:52 (EDT)
From: Z
Email: None
To: WOW Again
Subject: Re: Thanks Abi, for your bravery and grit
Message:
Abi- my guts churn when I think this charade.
If I had a wish it would be that you and the others would have the strengh to fall on the lying lard and his Elan Vital (what a joke) with a couple of sllick lawyers and a law suit that they couldnt lie themselves out of.
they should be forced to prove it didnt happen or pay up for the rest of your lives. compensation, loss of earning capacity, therapy and your childrens childrens children.
What manipulative bullshit to say you want money.No Duh

Of course they deny it - so did the catholic church for years.
whether m knew about it or not - somebody did.

moral . Ha. morally they should take responsibilty for what happened. Premies smell a rat . If EV wants to do damage control in their own ranks they should make restitution.

Catholics now can hold their heads up because the church has been forced to admitt abuse - that it did not know about- and pay the victims.

sorry abi- you have heard all this before and you dont need it now - I know it took guts to get this far. I hope you can sleep
peacefully knowing the support you have.
Zelda

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:47:39 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Tony Gwynn...A Credit to His Race..(ot)
Message:
The Human Race...and the BEST Damn Hitter I have ever Seen.

Being a long time San Diego Resident and baseball fan, I have had the Pleasure of watching Tony Gwynn, the Greatest Pure Hitter of the
Last 50 years, work his Magic for the San Diego Padres for the last 2 decades. Tony retired last week. I attended the Game on Sunday, Tony's Last Game, after which there was an hour long Ceremony honoring Tony and Remembering his many achievements. With the East Coast Media Bias and the Fact that San Diego itself is not a major Media Center, Tony has gotten less press than Cal Ripken. Yet San Diegans and Southern Californians who know Baseball, know who the better player was...His contribution to Our Community, however, lies less in His Baseball Skills than in his Heart and Humanity.
For an Hour on Sunday, 60,000 fans cheered and periodically chanted Tony..Tony..Tony...as Bob Costas hosted a Restrospective of Tony's Many Achievements. As I looked around, I saw a crowd of mostly White (with some hispanic and a few black) people...who truly loved this guy. You see, Tony has almost daily for almost two decades woven his magic into the tapestry of San Diegan's everyday lives...He appears on Radio, Tv..Talk Shows...is Quoted in the Papers...and it becomes like we know the guy...like he is a neigbor..or the guy
we work with...And the Consistent Impression We Have been left with is a Man...who is smart, kind, happy, generous, humble..a family man..who loves his wife and kids... and yet spends hours perfecting his craft: hitting a baseball where they aint; a Really Good Guy.

Tony has never to my knowledge championed any Racial Causes..yet,in his own unassuming way, he has done more for Racial Healing and Equality...than any Black Man this city has ever known. He has done it simply by this: Being a Real Fine Human Being. And not hating or
being angry for what he doesnt have...but loving and enjoying and appreciating what he Does have.

There is a very politically correct phrase that goes around a lot in these parts...it appears on bumperstickers as : Celebrate Diversity.
Well Tony has done it differently...He has somehow managed to Allow us of Different Races to Celebrate Our Sameness with Him...I am a White person who grew up in an area that had practically no Black People. Tony Gwynn is a Black Man with Very Dark Skin. Yet by the way he has played Baseball and Lived his life in Public View, he has
allowed me to see him as a Human being first and a Black Man..very secondarily. He has, by approaching life and people as good and
something to be honored and enjoyed, helped me to See him as Somehow the Same as Me. And By seeing him that way, he has helped me to See Black People more as 'just folks' and not some insurgent factor that wants to gain power and then use it as a means of retribution and revenge against..(gulp) the White Man.
Race is a subject Enveloped in Political Correctness here in America...There are very strict bounds about what you can say publicly without being ostracized or having your job threatened. That Political Correctness serves to Drive Racial fear and Prejudice Underground,not resolved, but expressed covertly. I see this and know this. Tony without ever Expressing Directly any Views on Race...has tangibly contributed to the healing of Racial Fear and Ignorance in our
Community. Thus, on Sunday 60,000 mostly white people cheered and Chanted and Loved a Man...who for the past two decades shared his life and His Brilliant talents with San Diegans of all Races. A
Decent and Good Human Being and an Incredible Hitter...that incidentally happened to have Black Skin. Tony...Tony...Tony...Tony..

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:55:09 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Sorry but Teddy Ballgame was
Message:
the best hitter from San Diego in the last 50 years. The Splendid Splinter(born in S.D.) did not retire from The Red Sox until 1960. This is not to detract from Tony who was a great singles hitter and does seem like a human being.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Ahh Yes...Another San Diegan..
Message:
Ted was Definitely a Better Slugger...and may be the Best Hitter of All Time...However as an average hitter...I do believe that if Tony Gwynn had been playing in the late '30s early '40s when Ted hit .406...Tony would have hit .430 or better.

There were no Black Players then..so the talent was diluted...no middle relief specialists...closers...The Pitchers worked a 4 man rotation and generally completed the ballgame...when they often had less than their best stuff...The Players were smaller slower..and not as athletic as they are now..
Still era for era...your point is well taken...I do Say Tony Gwynn is Definitely the Best Pure Hitter..of the last FORTY YEars then...and a very likeable good human being ...who never claimed to be the Lord God...;-)

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 05:30:05 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: Ahh Yes...Another San Diegan..
Message:
Hey,

Points well taken. On the other side, it could be argued that there were only 16 teams until '61 so the pitching was not as diluted. I agree though that today's players are better due to conditioning. I grew up thinking Mickey, Yogi and Whitey were Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Then I settled for Humpty Dumbrowski Ji.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:13:35 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Frank Sommerville again
Message:
Dear All:

Here are some extracts from an e-mail Sommerville sent me on the 6th of September. I asked him a few questions and this ws his reply. You'll see that Elan Vital totally denies that any member of their cult was associated with CAC.

'QUESTION: Third, an Elan Vital website calling itself Citizens Against Cyberstalking
appeared recently and accused a number of people who have spoken out about Jagdeo's pedophiles of stalking Mr Rawat.

RESPONSE: Elan Vital, along with its officers, directors and agents, is not involved in the website in any way. As a result, it has no say in its contents. It has not provided information to anyone.

QUESTION: Fourth, you, Frank Sommerville, contacted by father Christopher Bray, after
Dr Valerio Pascotto called him from Canada to discuss this process. Will you reply to my father and confirm that you indeed made such an offer to me via him?

RESPONSE: I contacted Christopher Bray as a member of Elan Vital because he asked for an update on your situation. I made no offers to him. I did not use him as an intermediary. In fact, I asked him not to call you, but apparently he did not follow my request. Our conversation involved a concerned member wanting information about Elan Vital's negotiations with you.

QUESTION: Can you also explain why it is that Elan Vital instructed you to contact my
father instead of Ford Greene?

RESPONSE: Elan Vital, thru its attorneys, may contact any member. As Elan Vital's attorney, I spoke with a member, Christopher Bray, about a matter of importance to him. I understand that Mr. Bray asked Elan Vital for an update. The professional rules state that I may not contact an individual who is represented by an attorney. That exclusion does not extend to members of my corporate client (unless they are individually represented in an action against the organization).

QUESTION: Am I to believe that Jagdeo is being brought to justice by Elan Vital for sexual
abuse he has inflicted on children in India? Have they indeed found Jagdeo?

RESPONSE: I understand that DUO (an Indian organization) has filed suit against Jagdeo in India. I do not know whether he has been served with the lawsuit.'

The lawsuit is just a Public Relations stunt. If they really wanted to bring Jagdeo to justice they would have done something about it in 1999.

Rawat, Marcia Lietner, Dr Valerio Pascotto and the rest of them do not care about the sexual abuse of children. if they do not care about the sexual abuse of children within their cult what else do they not care about? What else are they capable of?

Abi

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:48:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Frank Sommerville again
Message:
Dear All:

Here are some extracts from an e-mail Sommerville sent me on the 6th of September. I asked him a few questions and this ws his reply. You'll see that Elan Vital totally denies that any member of their cult was associated with CAC.

'QUESTION: Third, an Elan Vital website calling itself Citizens Against Cyberstalking appeared recently and accused a number of people who have spoken out about Jagdeo's pedophiles of stalking Mr Rawat.

RESPONSE: Elan Vital, along with its officers, directors and agents, is not involved in the website in any way. As a result, it has no say in its contents. It has not provided information to anyone.

What an empty reply! How does HE know? Did he canvass the issue with each and every EV officer, director or 'agent'? Of course not. I hate lawyers. :)

QUESTION: Fourth, you, Frank Sommerville, contacted by [sic] father Christopher Bray, after Dr Valerio Pascotto called him from Canada to discuss this process. Will you reply to my father and confirm that you indeed made such an offer to me via him?

RESPONSE: I contacted Christopher Bray as a member of Elan Vital because he asked for an update on your situation. I made no offers to him. I did not use him as an intermediary. In fact, I asked him not to call you, but apparently he did not follow my request. Our conversation involved a concerned member wanting information about Elan Vital's negotiations with you.

Let me see if I understand this properly. Sommerville assumes that you're an abuse victim and accepts that you likely are troubled sufficiently to require counselling which, he says, the cult wants to assist you with. He knows, as you've told him all along, that trust is the fundamental issue and that one particular source of your mistrust stems from your belief that the cult has undermined your relationship with your father. So what does he do? He secretly discusses the matter with your father under the bullshit guise that he was merely updating a member of his client's organization as if your father was an EV official in charge of liasing with counsel. Nice guy.

QUESTION: Can you also explain why it is that Elan Vital instructed you to contact my father instead of Ford Greene?

RESPONSE: Elan Vital, thru its attorneys, may contact any member. As Elan Vital's attorney, I spoke with a member, Christopher Bray, about a matter of importance to him. I understand that Mr. Bray asked Elan Vital for an update. The professional rules state that I may not contact an individual who is represented by an attorney. That exclusion does not extend to members of my corporate client (unless they are individually represented in an action against the organization).

If he wants to dig out the professional rules you might want to look them over too. As I understand it, Sommerville had no professional or proper purpose bypassing your counsel and talking with your father. Like I say, your dad was not a relevant EV official so Sommerville's answer rings quite hollow. Too bad your dad isn't more on side. It'd be quite interesting to hear just what Sommerville told him. Maybe even in light of them there professional rules.

QUESTION: Am I to believe that Jagdeo is being brought to justice by Elan Vital for sexual abuse he has inflicted on children in India? Have they indeed found Jagdeo?

RESPONSE: I understand that DUO (an Indian organization) has filed suit against Jagdeo in India. I do not know whether he has been served with the lawsuit.'

Sommerville knows that no EV official, high or low, had anything to do with CAC yet he's in the dark on one of the most fundamental questions concerning his retainer, i.e. what the hell's happening with this alleged EV lawsuit against Jagdeo? Wonder what the professional rules say about telling the truth?

The lawsuit is just a Public Relations stunt. If they really wanted to bring Jagdeo to justice they would have done something about it in 1999.

Rawat, Marcia Lietner, Dr Valerio Pascotto and the rest of them do not care about the sexual abuse of children. if they do not care about the sexual abuse of children within their cult what else do they not care about? What else are they capable of?

Abi

I think it's probably unfair to say they don't care. It's probably more a matter of everyone just being so busy these days, you know? :)

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:10:07 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: professional rules, my ass
Message:
The lawyer says: ''The professional rules state that I may not contact an individual who is represented by an attorney. That exclusion does not extend to members of my corporate client (unless they are individually represented in an action against the organization).''

This is weasel talk and even funnier in that all of a sudden EV has ''members'' one of whom is your father and specia; ''exclusions apply members of his corporate client. This in spite of stating categorically that EV does NOT have any members on all its official literature and websites. More weasel talk.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:52:23 (EDT)
From: Yogi Bear
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: What does it take to become a member
Message:
of EV? Do you have to recite the 'I hearby swear that I will not tell no one about the Knowledge I just learned-I won't be late to satsang-I won't put off til tomorrow what I can do today-and I won't doubt the purity of my master (and maybe send a few bucks to him when possible)' secret saying? or will a smart card suffice for membership? I am a member of my church, but I have no card or swearing in statement. I just go listen once a week.

But you're not a church, I forgot. Hmmmm. I am becoming confused. Maybe mister lawyer-for-the-cult would like to bone up on his corporate clients' IRS status and study its FAQ page on their website.

Would you like some salt with that foot? Counselor?

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What Mr Vile said
Message:
to my father in that creepy conversation was bascially that I should just trust them and that they would compensate me once I had entered into therapy. The whole idea of getting me to accept a months therapy was to get me to sign something to shut me up. Once I had signed my voice away in exchange for a months therapy they could totally wash their hands of the situation. They never had an intention of doing anything other than shutting me up for as little as possible.

Sommerville also denied being involved in that revolting press release about me and Susan. However, he clearly was.

I asked him once about his job, Cults hire him to silence their victims. He calls it 'healing', said he had a 'special gift' for it. He said the only people he had turned down were the witchdoctors. One of the victims he delt with was given $5000 US for being locked in a room and raped repeatedly. He was proud of this outcome, even boasted to me about it several times. I found it disgusting, really disgusting. Rawat sure does have some nice people working for him...

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:17:37 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: That is really sick.
Message:
Include this in your testimony.
It WILL be getting around.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:37:41 (EDT)
From: Oh My Gawd!
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: What Mr Vile said
Message:
Abi,

I asked him once about his job, Cults hire him to silence their victims. He calls it 'healing', said he had a 'special gift' for it. He said the only people he had turned down were the witchdoctors. One of the victims he delt with was given $5000 US for being locked in a room and raped repeatedly. He was proud of this outcome, even boasted to me about it several times. I found it disgusting, really disgusting. Rawat sure does have some nice people working for him...

I cannot believe this so-called lawyer! He's the kind that generates all those bad lawyer jokes. $5K for being raped repeatedly, well, that's a settlement his CLIENT certainly liked, I'm sure.

If cults hire him to silence their victims, well, he has laid out his 'credibility' right there. And, in the process, Maharaji, personally, yes, personally, has used his cult tactics to alienate your father from you, which originated at the Amaroo meeting. It all stinks.

And of all things, do not trust Maharaji, EV, Valerio, or anyone remotely affiliated with Maharaji's cult. They are out to cover their butts. And for Maharaji, that's a big cover.

Be well, Abi,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 20:13:44 (EDT)
From: Funny, as ever..
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Private Eye..(ot)
Message:

[ Well, it made me larf.. ]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:58:05 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: Funny, as ever..
Subject: Re: Private Eye..(ot)
Message:
me 2
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 18:23:28 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The new apartheid in the cult
Message:
There has always been a caste system of one sort or another in the cult (at the local level the Church Ladies look down on the old hippie fringe premies) but here is the latest version.

One of the local premies decided to rent a booth at the Castro Fair (which took place last Sunday) to propagate K. Now this in itself is extremely peculiar because this premie is not only one of the angriest, most mentally unbalanced PWKs in the community but regularly threatens to commit suicide and readily admits that he cannot practice K because ''his mind always bothers him so much.''

(He once told me when I asked him how he could propagate when he is so fucked up: ''I'm not propagating K. I'm propagating M, the living Master.'')

The Castro Fair is an annual street party for gays. This PWK is gay (no, not in the old sense - he is far from that - rather he can be charitably described as gloomy) and decided that his queer brothers needed K and M. So a booth was rented and he asked for reimbursement from the local PWK ''propagation team.'' He also asked for funds to buy ''Propagation'' packages which consist of videos, cassettes and booklets of Rev Rawat's sermons.

The PWK team agreed to this but, on the night before the PWKs were about to propagate K to the fags at the Castro Fair, Gloomy Gus was told that he could not help to man the booth as he was not a ''KITee.''

Yes, guys, he was not allowed to spread this Knowledge to every land because he had not attended a ''Knowledge Introduction Training'' seminar. And yes, those who have attended such seminars (which cost $90 to attend and the more you attend the higher up in the caste system you go) are proud to call themselves ''KITees.''

So, it seems that the cult apartheid system now has a new caste. The Brahmins are the elite and small X-rated ''Inner Circle'' - 80 were invited to a weekend aboard the Divine Yacht. Then there are the Kshatriyas (warriors) who consist of the 600 biggest donors who attended the meeting in Arizona. Then there are the Vaisyas (merchants) who are now called KITees - formerly known as Church Ladies..

I guess the sudras, dalits and outcastes (who don't give any money) are the PUSSIES - premies used to doing satsang and service. And a war between the Kitties and the Pussies is about to break out.

And now I must take my Doggies for walkies. It's another perfect day in paradise as we say in SF.

PS I wish I had gone to the Castro Fair. I would have loved to see the Kitties formerly known as church ladies facing off against our wonderful faggy Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who no doubt gave them not only a piece of their minds but treated the Kitties to a flash of naked genitals too. Yes, it's wild party.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 16:22:16 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I also wish you had been there what a hoot [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 06:19:40 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: The new apartheid in the cult
Message:
Frogshit Pat. Frogshit
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:41:09 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: The usual articulate response
Message:
I'm increasingly thinking you MUST be a really ANGRY ex, surely no premie could be so brainless as to think they are displaying anything valuable about the wonderful world of mr rawat with the kind of responses you post.

On the other hand maybe I've been away from the cult world so long I had forgotten just how vacuous some people there are.
No wonder mr rawat can't entrust the premies with the message for the public when people like you are around.

Just how many years practising with k and feeling his love have enabled you to evolve to this high spot?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:26:41 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject:
Message:
I was never in the cult you obviously imagined Hamzen. So I have little compunction in calling a spade a shovel.It amazes me what pass for facts here. I think it ;therefore it is?
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:21:01 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: The new apartheid in the cult
Message:
wonderful insights into pat c.'s cosmology...in a hundred years the
hindus will build a temple in his honor ...
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:43:41 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: The new apartheid in the cult
Message:
and, like Mr. Natural, miragey, and Simple Simon, maybe Ruby and da biker dykes met a pie-man goin' to da fair.

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/mr_nat_6.htm

you sure 80 spent the weekend on the yacht? perhaps they were just invited aboard for a lil' party cruise, as part of a high-heeled sponsorship program.
[ http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/mr_nat_2.htm ]

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:09:07 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: The new apartheid in the cult
Message:
wouldn't you say this is discrimination against faggots?;):)())
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 20:12:01 (EDT)
From: never a Kitty
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I can see it now
Message:
That poor guy MUST be off quite some bit to even consider facing
those Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and trying to propogate M no less! haha can just think of the comments to his pictures now.

So it's KITees now. How quaint. Why they will be a regular landmark education corp at this rate, if only they could get the wacko leader deported the way it happened to Warner E.
thanks for the news PatC. It gets weirder and weirder.
Selene

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:04:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Question, Pat
Message:
Pat, so, if the Pwk who tried to get the booth together was not allowed to 'propagate' at the booth (and by your description, I think I know who you mean), who did? Who were the 'KITees?' Did they go forward and have the booth? Were they all church ladies?

Just as background, the Castro Street Fair is one of the largest street fairs in the world. About 500,000 show up for it. Every year I used to walk up Castro street from my house in Noe Valley and see the mass of humanity on the streets of the Castro. The fair was started by Harvey Milk way back in the 70s when he ran a camera store on Castro, before he got elected, and then assassinated. I was in Chicago and wasn't able to attend this year, but it would have been funny to see PWKs doing propagation at the fair. I can't imagine they had much success, at propagating... whatever it is they propagate.

They always have a section of booths for churches, and various community groups, political parties, etc., at the fair, so I suppose that's where the Pwks would have been.

Actually, Pat, I've never noticed the Castro Street Fair being very wild in the years I have gone. It's more like a family event, with lots of arts and crafts, food and music. It's not like Folsom street which is the week before. It's very tame, although very crowded.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:45:05 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: As an ancient fag, Joe
Message:
The usual suspects, the industrial strength church ladies ran the booth: the twitching person mentioned in the article J-M just put on line and his wife and the local lesbian instructor and the fag church-ladies of Church Street. Aaargh!

Can you just imagination that humorless, pious and constipated bunch trying to ''propagate'' to the Sisters? I bet more than one lifted her nun's habit and exposed her derriere and invited a little ''propagation'' or at least some sowing of seed.

The year I moved from Berkeley to SF, 79, I went to the Castro Street Fair for the first time with a couple of the ashram closet brothers. (We had also done the Parade a few months earlier.) I ran a face-painting stall. It was wild. I painted more buns than faces.

I had a ball. It was such fun after being with all the premie closet cases. This was pre-AIDS and there was a quite a bit of public sex. Yes, it is much tamer but so is the Parade. Of course Folsom and Dore are still crazy.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:22:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PS: ''Thou shalt not propagate to friends.''
Message:
When the local team was gearing up for the Kitty propagation thingies (I wonder do you produce kitty litters from Kitty propagation?) last year I told them:''What's the problem with trying to propagate? It's easy. Every friend or lover I have ever had has eventually gotten K. Just make new friends.''

The twitcher's wife (who had attended prototype KITS) said: ''Mwaji said you don't have to be friends with the people you propagate to. In fact he said it is better not to propagate to your friends.''

I was so astonished that I had no answer to give her.

Yes, it's true nearly all of my former friends and lovers eventually asked me about getting K and then got it. (Joe, Joy and Fran, you remember ML, JF and a bunch of the other newbie premie fags in the Haight - most of those were my babies.)

I stopped propagating when I left premiedom in 81 when Chuck got K. Then of course even Andy wanted it 5 years ago eventhough I had not ''propagated'' it to him in the four years he had already been with us.

The interesting thing about the local Kitties is that the instructor's main squeeze of over 5 years does not want K but has been to India on her own search and does not like M. The local CC is married to a non-premie who also dislikes M as does his grown son who had a heart to heart talk with me about it one day. Another local Kitty, BM (yes, that BM, Marianne - he's currently working for Dunrite in LA) has a lover of nearly four years who also detests M and told me that the idea of being blissed out and spacey like his premie lover seemed childish and superficial.

I guess I could give these Kitties the benefit of the doubt and think that they have not gotten their lovers interested in M or K because You Know Who told them not to propagate to friends but I doubt it. My take is their lovers know them too well and know their mental imbalances and lack of real inner peace or strength and simply tolerate it because they love them.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 12:36:28 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Kittys, Pewks ... what about the Fur Balls?
Message:
Fur balls -

Fucked Up Rawatis Believing A Loathsome Little Scam?

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:30:02 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: All
Subject: re: Mr. Rawat and his message
Message:
It has never been so clear as now that Mr. Rawat and his message is totally irrelevant. No one could think this little man has anything to offer in this world at war. Should he not be speaking up now or is he just content to maintain his own little cult of believers who find it to threatening to see him as he is?
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:56:31 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Re: re: Mr. Rawat and his message
Message:
nothing ever happens on this planet that has not happened before,
same goes for 'this little man',there's always a little man here to
bring you good news..but you like war, so we got obl right here, he sure will
give you what you desire
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:06:55 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Your comments are UNACCEPTABLE
Message:
not really but that's the word being used these days so I thought I'd try it out.

Good luck in finding the courage to face the little demon what has infected you within/without

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:06:46 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Re: re: Mr. Rawat and his message
Message:
Thought I'd repost this as it may not have been seen from down below from Old-Ex.
Being a bit of an atheist, I'm not so sure about the 'listening to God' parts but, if you substitute this for the common sense most of us have if we take the time to think things through, I reckon there are some words of wisdom even for the most heathen of us

Perhaps I'm posting this a bit late, but today I happened to come across a quote from the Dalai Lama, apparently from 9/11. You may draw your own conclusions as to how it compares to Maharaji's prayer.

'The events of this day cause every thinking person to stop their daily lives, whatever is going on in them, and to ponder deeply the larger questions of life. We search again for not only the meaning of life, but the purpose of our individual and collective experience as we have created it--and we look earnestly for ways in which we might recreate ourselves as a human species, so that we will never treat each other this way again.
The hour has come for us to demonstrate at the highest level our most extraordinary thought about Who We Really Are.

There are two possible responses to what has occurred today. The first comes from love, the second from fear.

If we come from fear we may panic and do things--as individuals and as nations--that could only cause further damage. If we come from love we will find refuge and strength, even as we provide it to others.

This is the moment of your ministry. This is the time of teaching. What you teach at this time, through your every word and action right now, will remain as indelible lessons in the hearts and minds of those whose lives you touch, both now, and for years to come.

We will set the course for tomorrow, today. At this hour, in this moment. Let us seek not to pinpoint blame, but to pinpoint cause. Unless we take this time to look at the cause of our experience, we will never remove ourselves from the experiences it creates. Instead, we will forever live in fear of retribution from those within the human family who feel aggrieved, and, likewise, seek retribution from them.
To us [Buddhist thinkers] the reasons are clear. We have not learned the most basic human lessons. We have not remembered the most basic human truths. We have not understood the most basic spiritual wisdom. In short, we have not been listening to God, and because we have not, we watch ourselves do ungodly things.

The message we hear from all sources of truth is clear: We are all one.
That is a message the human race has largely ignored. Forgetting this truth is the only cause of hatred and war, and the way to remember is simple: Love, [in] this and every moment.
If we could love even those who have attacked us, and seek to understand why they have done so, what then would be our response? Yet if we meet negativity with negativity, rage with rage, attack with attack, what then will be the outcome?

These are the questions that are placed before the human race today. They are questions that we have failed to answer for thousands of years. Failure to answer them now could eliminate the need to answer them at all.
If we want the beauty of the world that we have co-created to be experienced by our children and our children's children, we will have to become spiritual activists right here, right now, and cause that to happen. We must choose to be a cause in the matter.
So, talk with God today. Ask God for help, for counsel and advice, for insight and for strength and for inner peace and for deep wisdom. Ask God on this day to show us how to show up in the world in a way that will cause the world itself to change. And join all those people around the world who are praying right now, adding your Light to the Light that dispels all fear.
That is the challenge that is placed before every thinking person today.
Today the human soul asks the question: What can I do to preserve the beauty and the wonder of our world and to eliminate the anger and hatred--and the disparity that inevitably causes it--in that part of the world which I touch? Please seek to answer that question today, with all the magnificence that is You. What can you do TODAY...[at] this very moment?

A central teaching in most spiritual traditions is: What you wish to experience, provide for another. Look to see, now, what it is you wish to experience--in your own life, and in the world. Then see if there is another for whom you may be the source of that.
If you wish to experience peace, provide peace for another. If you wish to know that you are safe, cause [others] to know that they are safe.
If you wish to better understand seemingly incomprehensible things, help another to better understand.
If you wish to heal your own sadness or anger, seek to heal the sadness or anger of another.
Those others are waiting for you now. They are looking to you for guidance, for help, for courage, for strength, for understanding, and for assurance at this hour. Most of all, they are looking to you for love.

My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.'

- Dalai Lama

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:10:29 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Re: re: Mr. Rawat and his message
Message:
you should really read the article that jmk has recently added to epo to find out what are the suttle and real motives behind rawatisim.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:55:20 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Scott - New bike faster than motorbike!
Message:

[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:40:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Pedicabs and pedicures.
Message:
Dave:

Too bad you're not here in the states this coming weekend. It's the annual 'Seagull Century' which is a widely attended 100 mile ride on the Eastern Shore of the Chesapeake. It'll have something like 6,000 riders. I've never seen a pedicab on it, though there was some guy with an 8-year-old girl on a tandem that averaged 23 mph. Papa was a motor.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:20:14 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Re: Scott - New bike faster than motorbike!
Message:
is this why you're angry?})
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:17:53 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: All
Subject: OT (Anthrax)
Message:
I haven't been posting much lately, (mostly work related). I do want to post my opinion about the probable anthrax attack. I think this is GREAT news!! Why?? because I suspect it was a try-out and it failed miserably!! (Only One victim in a buildig with ... ? workers) That means that al Quada is NOT able to handle biological warfare!!!!
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:25:02 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Re: OT (Anthrax)
Message:
Although it's likely the anthrax was deliberate, it isn't known who did it. If the al Quada did it, they could have intended to infect only a few people. And if they intended to kill more but failed, the possibility is there they could improve. I don't think we should tear out the champagne yet.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:46:27 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis
Message:
What's Behind the 15-Year-Old Guru Maharaj Ji?

by Gail Winder and Carol Horowitz
[ The Realist article, december 1973 ]

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:06:23 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: a cult classic sit-com!
Message:
...As the devotees settled on the floor, it was as though we were watching a rock star paying a surprise visit to his fans. There was excitement in the air and everything in the office came to a standstill the moment Mahatma Ji entered the room. And there we were, face to face with one of the Holy Men, who was obviously enjoying all the attention he was getting.

When Billy White told the honored guest that we were from the media, his eyes lit up and he looked as if he wanted us to ask him some questions. In the course of our short interview with Mahatma Ji, he told us that he had been a follower of Guru Maharaj Ji for four years, and that he had been an engineer in India before that.

The conversation got around to politics when we asked the mahatma and the assembled premies what their position was on the war in Indochina. His reply was that they did not support either side, since the Guru teaches us that war is wrong and that the love of Guru Maharaj Ji is the only way to procure peace.
We asked if that meant that D.L. M. does not support the right of the Indochinese people to self-defense against American aggression. The answer was no (that was an irrelevant question).

Testing how far they were willing to go, we asked, 'What if B52's are above you, dropping bombs on your homes, schools, children and everything you know and love is being destroyed, what then?' The group smiles (another irrelevant question). 'Well, then, far out! It doesn't matter!'

Even though we half expected something like this, we couldn't quite believe what we had just heard, and couldn't quite control the anger and frustration boiling up inside. So that was the end of our interview with the mahatma and his admirers.

As we made our exit, two men from the office followed us out onto the street. They wanted to give us some more Satsang, and couldn't understand why we were angry and upset. One of the men was genuinely confused, and wanted to smooth things out and make us feel better. The other stood there mocking us, grinning and staring and full of hate.

Suddenly I lost control and started screaming that they were robots, incapable of understanding or displaying any human emotions or reactions. Smack! Everett (the one with the evil eye) hit me in the face with a roll of posters (of the Guru, no doubt) he was carrying. 'That's reaction,' was his only explanation.

As more and more premies filtered out into the street to see what was happening, we confronted them with what had just occurred, and waited to see what their reactions would be. The mahatma's only response to the incident was, 'Well, nobody's perfect - he just hasn't meditated on the Knowledge enough yet.'...

...The Guru is daddy, the premies are his children, and all the authoritarianism implied in that structure is present, only worse, since the daddy is also god and never makes a mistake. Mindlessness is the goal for premies to strive for. As Rennie put it in an interview with Ken Kelley, 'I just surrendered my mind completely to Guru Maharaj Ji and said 'No more - from here on out you do the thinking and I'll do the listening.' '

Not only are the premies seen as children, they are also machines that only the Guru knows how to operate:

'The mind has an automatic acceleration on it and you can't control it. Only one man can control it, the man who built it, who mastered it, who is a doctor on it! Only He knows how to find the acceleration screw so he can loosen it up and take it out, so that the proportions of the mixture will be set properly.
I'll tell you what is wrong with people's brains today. See in the carburetor there are two screws ...' miragey

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:25:20 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Incredible, but, but, but...
Message:
I really didn't get the 'racist' thing that the authors were saying. They quoted an article from And It Is Divine, and the impression I got, and which I vaguely remember, is that the point of the article was: 'look what bullshit science can be used to prove.' I'm SURE that the point of the AIID article wasn't that 'negroes are inferior.' I was pretty much a spiritually subdued radical leftist, and I used to read AIID from cover to cover, and if that had been the point, I would have freaked out. I'm not saying that I might not have found some divine rationalization... but no! I was pretty feisty about such things the whole time I was a full-time devotee (while simultaneously trying to be what I thought MJ wanted - this was a double-binding mind-fuck!).

I don't believe that the near-fascist interpretation of that statement from AIID was accurate. But there was an unbelievably toxic belief system prevailing, which this article really lit up for me again. Gawd, that stuff about women always used to drive me nuts. I remember there was a woman named Gita who was a big cheese in South America, and she got a bit out of control, and MJ was reported to have said, 'That's the last time I have a woman in a position of power,' or some such stuff.

Anybody remember the AIID article? It's just that I think that if we make or seem to be buying into inaccurate accusations, the central truth of the real objections is weakened.

love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:55:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: No, the article really did say that
Message:
I distinctly remember the article. It was about an elder in the Ku Klux Klan. He was talking about that bible prophecy about a little coloured boy from the east gonna come and lead us and everything. His point was that just proved how stupid it was to believe anything in that old testament, the jew one.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:46:04 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No, the article really did say that
Message:
Jeez!

But the point of the article wasn't that the article writer was saying that 'negroes are inferior' then. Weren't they kind of lampooning the Klu Klux Klan guy and the scientist for their ignorance?

It would be fascinating to read some old AIIDs.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:56:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Sorry
Message:
I was just kidding. You remember all those other 'elder' articles? Elder this, elder that.

No, don't remember nothin' 'bout no NEEgroe's.

But I agree with you that the cult was hardly racist. We all thought we were liquid Guru Maharaj Ji in different bottles, after all. Just weren't that many blacks into it, for whatever reason. Probably just like there weren't all that many black hippies, I guess. Some but not even equally represented per capita compared to the general population. The Realist had its own axe to grind which it did on any surface it could find. Otherwise the article's good though.

And yes, aint' it the truth that it would have had no impact whatsoever on us cult members. I wonder, though, what if the article mentioned, amongst other things, stuff like X-rating and vehicular homicides? Alas, we'll never know.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:12:32 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis
Message:
WOW!
That article was written 5 months after I 'received knowlege'. But I doubt it would have made any impression on me then.

What really tweaked my memory was the mention of the sea of white faces in the satsangs. I also rarely met anyone over the age of 30. HMMM...let's see, could this have been a planned target for the 'ministry of Mr.Rawat'? Young, impressionable, spoiled, moneyed, idle and rebellious youth, freshly hatched out of college dorms and a steady diet of mind expanding drugs.

Yes I remember the catchy slogan, 'I want the knowlege you can't get in college'. I wonder how many people dropped out of college because of their involvement with DLM.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:15:55 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis
Message:
When I was in the ashram I we were interviewed by a reporter for some local paper. We all (this is how i remember it) thought that it had gone well and eagerly awaited the publication.

What came out must have been along the lines of that article. The thing that amazes me, reading it now is that at the time my only reaction was disgust at the biased way they had presented our 'sincere truth', I cannot remember a single twinge of doubt. I am not only embarrassed but totally horrified to have been so ...??? BRAINWASHED. It seem to remember saying as I spoke to people on street corners that 'Yes I am brainwashed, but we need to be...!!!'

This is the scary part of realising it was such a cult..If I could be that taken in how can I ever trust myself again?

Thanks Jean Michel.

Peg

ps Someone quoted you as saying they had low frequency equipment at programs to create alpha waves or something. Is that right? Do they always have them or just once? Love to know the answer to that.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:44:40 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis
Message:
Hi Peg, I know what you mean when you say 'at the time my only reaction was disgust at the biased way they had presented our 'sincere truth', I cannot remember a single twinge of doubt.

that is how we felt, if we were any sort of loyal, sincere premie at all. The thing is, even though I do feel it, we shouldn't be embarressed by it too much. We were being true to our feelings and trying to help those unfortunate fellow humans that did not have the knowledge. Trying to show them that all their troubles and worries were easily overcome by joining our happy band.
I mean, if you discovered the cure to cancer, it would be your duty to propogate the information as vigorously as you could. That's what we tried to do - even though we were wrong in our asssumptions that practicing the knowledge would solve all.
What sometimes niggles me these days is the lack of commitment of some of the premies. Statements like 'it's not for everybody' and 'if you don't like it you don't have to stick with it' go against all that we were told it was - i.e. universal truth, not a matter of taste. So don't feel bad about trying your best to pass on what you thought was the best thing for all humanity.
However, I do relate and empathise with your statement 'If I could be that taken in how can I ever trust myself again? '
I think I suffer from this also and, although I do tend to get carried away sometimes, I am always wary of communicating my opinions ( however well intentioned ) on others - even when it seems to me the best way of helping them. I don't trust my ability to judge situations or people as well as I used to. Perhaps something to do with getting older but certainly not helped by being let down by the promise of 'satchitanand'.
best wishes
berni
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:44:02 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Hypnotic videos/music
Message:
Did you watch those darshan videos in India, slow motion and hypnotic music composed by Rawat a few years back ?

That's what I was referring to. This is a common trick used by many groups, and if the level is low enough, you can mix it with any music and nobody will ever notice. I'm almost sur he's using that trick, because I can't find any other reason why some of those 'special videos' never publicly released were 'so powerful' ...... He can mix and edit the sound himself in his studio, and nobody will know. I bet he does.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:31:54 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Powerful Stuff, Jean-Michel
Message:
How could I have been so blind to the obvious truths that are pointed out so clearly here? I witnessed and was a party to so many of the similar convoluted attitudes and like events covered in this piece. My lament today is why didn't I see what a crock of shit the cult was then? Was I that far gone? the answer is an embarrassed yes.

I was even one of the types who would argue with reasonable people when confronted with candid questions about the cult and guru. I was heavily under the ether of cult brainwashing, Wow, this article just made me realize how far gone I was, it just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Reading this review is a lot like looking back into a crystal ball and seeing my future unfold before me. I am sorry that it took so long to realize what is so simply stated so long ago by these reporters from the Realist, Gail Winder and Carol Horowitz.

Brian the converted realist ...

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:18:44 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It could almost have been written yesterday
Message:
Thanks, Jean-Michel. That was most embarassing to read. I kept wondering why I wasn't asking the same questions as the authors were 28 years ago. They were radical left and so was I at the time. I guess I wanted the bliss so much that I was willing to overlook the ''reactionary'' immorality of the cult. I especially liked the following passages:

Later that night in Boulder we interviewed Sheldon Jaffe, the director of Divine Sales (D. L. M.'s chain of 16 thrift stores-one of their sources of 'green energy'). Sheldon was typical of many premies we talked to: overweight, pale and twitchy, he clearly gets a lot out of being a 'heavy' in the organization. He said he was alienated, unsatisfied and unhappy before joining up with the forces of Guru Maharaj Ji. Now, he told us, he gets to fly all over the country as National Director of Divine Sales, and attend Board of Directors meetings.

Dear Sheldon. That could have been written yesterday. He's still twitching today. And this epitomises some throughly modern PWKs as well:

Testing how far they were willing to go, we asked, 'What if B52's are above you, dropping bombs on your homes, schools, children and everything you know and love is being destroyed, what then?' The group smiles (another irrelevant question). 'Well, then, far out! It doesn't matter!'

And this passage describes exactly the mentality behind the CAC attack:

As we made our exit, two men from the office followed us out onto the street. They wanted to give us some more Satsang, and couldn't understand why we were angry and upset. One of the men was genuinely confused, and wanted to smooth things out and make us feel better. The other stood there mocking us, grinning and staring and full of hate.

Suddenly I lost control and started screaming that they were robots, incapable of understanding or displaying any human emotions or reactions. Smack! Everett (the one with the evil eye) hit me in the face with a roll of posters (of the Guru, no doubt) he was carrying. 'That's reaction,' was his only explanation.

I guess the penance that I will do for the rest of my life for the sin of ever supporting this disgusting cult is that I will always be embarassed and ashamed of my involvement with it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:44:42 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: My sentiments exactly Pat
Message:
Emabarrased is about a close a term as I can come up with to describe what I felt reading this post. I was floored, just bowled over this morning realizing how duped and deaded I was to the reality of what was going on.

I really did think I was that far in and information like this shows me how lucky I was to escape.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:22:22 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Another article in the same issue
Message:
This Little Nipple Went to an Indian Sweat Lodge

By Teenie Weenie Deanie

I had been anticipating the sweat lodge for quite a few months. Dale had asked me sometime in the fall if I wanted to travel with him the next time he visited Raymond, a Shoshone medicine man who lived somewhere in Wyoming. Sure, I had replied . . . I mean, the way Dale talked about this guy made it sound too good to pass up; 'Probably a stronger power than don Juan,' the now famous Mexican sorcerer.
I had read the books about don Juan, had experimented with some of the same drugs he used in his rituals, and was familiar with much of his symbology, through direct experience. But I had never met anyone who had those kinds of powers. I was really eager to make the trip.
'Maybe I'll be changed into a swallow . . . 'A typical cynical response. Dale talks about the eagle who appears during the sweat. Sure, man, an eagle. But of course I don't completely doubt him. Maybe, who knows. Dale tells me later than I am the first friend of his who has accepted his offer to go there. Too much hocus pocus for the average john. (I am, of course, a most different fellow.)
For the next few months I kept bringing up the subject of the sweat lodge to Dale, and he always said that it would happen real soon. But I was ready to go every time I asked. I didn't quite realize just how serious Dale was about this place and this Indian man, that he wasn't up to making the trip until there was some real reason to go.
My fantasies were growing larger all the time, the image of this terribly hot sweat lodge where one had to give up oneself to the heat or cry to be let out, where a great medicine man could read my mind and heal my soul. Where the great spirits of the American. lindens lived and breathed as humans . . . and on and on. 'Let's go, man!'
We flew from San Francisco to Salt Lake, where we were going to meet Eric Short, a Cree Indian from Canada, who would take us to the sweat lodge 'under his own pipe.' Eric is a young ex-alcoholic working with Indian drinking problems, and an up-and-coming medicine man in his own right. He works with Dale, and had set up the trip to Wyoming. Jerry, another co-worker with Dale, had decided to come also, so there were four of us climbing into the rented car to make the 350-mile drive to Raymond's place.
It was obvious to me that there were four different people making this trip . . . Dale was wound up with his problems, very quiet and sort of removed; and Jerry seemed also to be on his very own trip. Between the four of us, not much happened on the way there. A cold beginning, I kept thinking.
What exactly am I doing here? I really don't know these people, and maybe I made a big mistake coming on their trip. But those kinds of thoughts weren't coming too often to bug me. I was ready for whatever, and just hoped it wasn't going to be more than I could handle . . . I was pretty sure that there wouldn't be much support from my companions if I needed it, we were all too strongly on our own trips to be of much help to anyone else.
Very late that night we rented a motel a few miles from the place, in one of those western towns were everyone is drunk on the streets after 10 p.m. The kids were cruising the main street, flashing the 'V' sign, and the cops were busy busting a loud tavern full of Indians.
Where we are going is actually on the Indian reservation, but this town is not, and it is here that the white man still puts his funny trips on the Indians . . . buy this, drink this, need this.
I was not feeling in the best of spirits when I went to sleep that evening, especially after a long talk with Eric: A total complete male chauvinist pig; 'All I really want is coffee when I get up and my shirt to be ironed. If I can't get that, I look for a new chick.' Wait a minute, I said to myself, is this man going to be a holy man for his fellow Indians?
He can hardly see anything of just about everything I consider to be most holy . . . freedom, individual rights, and an end to the 'Mr. Clean' era of freshly-ironed minds. 'Let's be natural' is my motto . . . and I had always thought that the Indians were the essence of Mr. Natural. What is going on here? My cynical paranoia, always passing judgment.
The morning found us all more relaxed, getting' excited about the coming sweat. We hung around town until early afternoon, buying lots of food at the local Safeway for a big feast that evening . . . we bring the vitals and they provide the fixing.
It was clouding up and threatened snow. A very strange town, cowboys and Indians, new Ford pickups and Marlboro smokes. Real Men. And me, one of those long-hair fairy pinkos from out of state. I was really feeling like an uptown hipster by the time we left for Raymond's farm. These people were so poor, and lived in such terrible houses.
And the drive into the reservation didn't get much better. New Fords for driving down Main Street, and lowly shacks to keep out the Winter cold. And it was really getting cold. The road turned from blacktop to gravel, and then to dirt and mud. Ahead was a small house, two trailers, some funky shacks and a camper that fit the back of the pickup . . . this was Raymond's place . . . and there was the brand new Ford pickup.
'Oh boy,' I thought, 'are we in for it.'
But no one else seemed to feel my uneasiness, and we walked into the house totally unannounced. Through a functional kitchen and into a small living room with a giant color television blaring out some football weirdness to some very funky-looking people. A toothless man with one of those gray mechanic hats and hip very toothless wife, I supposed, sitting together glued to the TV. Sure enough, Raymond and his wife.
This was even more than I had hoped for. Here was Mr. Funky and his fat wife . . . and then the kids started coming though, and I had to stand up and shake hands with each one, so formal and tense, so unlike I had imagined this 'don Juan' to be. I really wasn't quite sure what I had imagined, but it wasn't this . . . and his children. so many of them for such a small house. And the pictures of the high-school graduations on the walls. I somehow felt like this man had completely copped out to the forces of his white conquerors. But not for long.
Never had I seen a man so gentle with his children, yet so firm. And such a warm smile. In fact, he always had on a smile. In fact, he was always laughing. And so was his wife. She soon became one of the warmest people I had ever met. She had 14 children, and 11 grandchildren, many adopted, and all from different Indian nations. She had a child from just about every tribe I had heard of, and they quickly accepted me into their company and had me outside playing basketball in the snow.
I was starting to get high, from such open people.
Inside, we had met four of Raymond's daughters, very plain-looking women starting to put on weight, all in their teens and twenties, full of giggles and very shy. Soon they were out playing basketball too, and we were really moving that ball around. Everyone was so friendly (the best word I can think of) and really into playing.
Raymond came out and walked over to a funny-looking tent affair not too far from the house . . . this was the sweat lodge, about 12 feet in diameter, and about 4 feet high, covered with old tarps and tents, very funky, very fitting with the rest of the farm.
Raymond started chopping wood and building a big fire at one end of the lodge. I started taking pictures of everything, and he couldn't believe it, that someone would want to take his photo. But he told me not to take any of the lodge; it wasn't allowed. My firs hit of a mystical presence.
Pretty soon he piled large pieces of volcanic rock on the fire, and more wood on top of them, and we all stood around the fire trying to keep warm. I understood why they played such vigorous basketball, just to keep warm. Looking around the horizon, it sure was beautiful, open land for as far as you could see, horses turned against the cold wind and snow off in the distance.
I started to realize that this was the traditional homeland for these people for centuries. It was their land, always had been. I was a visitor from the United States. They were real goddamned Indians, and they weren't drunk like most of the ones I had contact with before. And they were really honestly friendly, not trying to hustle me for a quarter for more wine, and they were having me as a guest at their very important ritual, the sweat.
The sweat: It is the purifier, the medium which brings the four elements of the universe - earth, air, fire and water -together so that we can pray for help from these forces, can pay our respects to them all at once. I was really beginning to feel something very large happening here.
Soon some of the teenaged boys came running through the snow in swimming suits, and stood by the fire to keep warm. It was almost time for the sweat to begin. On the way to change into our suits, we three white men from the West Coast stopped individually to spend a moment with Raymond, to try and tell him why we had come to the sweat, what we wanted from the spirits of the sweat.
I told him that I wanted my heart to be opened, for a better understanding of my heart and its power with my mind. He no longer looked like the ex-alcoholic toothless funny old man. When I spoke to him I was speaking to an ageless spirit, his eyes were so deep and his feeling so real, no joking around, a serious moment for both of us.
That finished, we hurried to a small cabin to undress and then ran through the icy wind and snow back to the fire. And we waited for quite some time, a bunch of almost naked men and boys around a fire, laughing and joking and really feeling good. I really felt good. And I kept saying to myself, 'I am getting high, brother.' And Dale and Jerry and I were starting to feel closer, to share longer moments of eye contact, and a knowing smile that all was so nice.
Soon Raymond came, and we followed him into the lodge; I had to squat down to walk around in it to the spot Raymond pointed out for me, around a deep pit in the center, I guessed, for the hot rocks. The inside of this place blew my mind. It was beautiful, willow branches woven into a frame, beautiful material covering it, and various little sacks and pieces of leather hanging from the wood.
Soon the men and boys were in, and it was only half filled. The young kids were laughing at us, telling us how hot it was going to get. 'You must be crazy to come to such a hot place,' Raymond piped in, starting to laugh again. Soon all the women and their babies started to come in, and it filled up.
I was sitting across from those daughters, and somehow they looked different to me. I realized that I was just being much more accepting of them, that I was no longer looking just at the physical, and was beginning to feel the real person inside the body. They were very real ladies, and it felt good to have them sitting with us.
Raymond's wife spoke to us about the sweat, what to do if it got too hot, and how to use the stalks of sage we had picked up on the way in. Someone brought the rocks in, and I was ready. I couldn't imagine how hot they were talking about, I had been in many saunas before, but I wrapped my bare shoulders in a towel just in case, to keep off the steam. The flaps were closed, just as she was telling us that if it got too hot, start to pray for everyone in the lodge.
We were packed in like sardines, the walls of the lodge up against our backs, the fire pit about a foot in front. Total darkness, very quiet; I could hear some water being thrown on the rocks 'Hiisssssss . . . 'and soon the heat began. The steam rose from the rocks, and flowed across the roof of the lodge and down the backs of the participants . . . it was hot, but it felt good.
Suddenly there was a high-pitched voice penetrating the darkness, one of the sons was singing 'Hey Hey Yeh Yeh Hey. . .'and soon some of the women were joining in, and pretty soon I was singing some Hindu prayer I knew. The singing took my mind off the heat.
More water, more steam, hard to breathe. Louder singing, such sweet sounds. Suck harmony I had never heard before.
And more water, sounded like a whole bucket, and for a moment the heat was too hot to bear. But just at that moment Raymond yelled something in his Indian language, and the flaps were thrown open, at both ends, and the cool air from the outside rushed through the lodge. I was sweating profusely, and so were Jerry and Dale, sitting to my right, Eric to my left was just smiling, and I realized that I was too, grinning ear to ear.
Everyone was smiling, and there hadn't been one sound of displeasure from any of the infants wrapped up in the arms of the women. I felt incredible, the sweats were supposed to last for four minutes, with a four-minute break, for four times. But time seemed to stop, it was not important. Soon the flaps were closed again.
More water, more heat, and such beautiful singing. I was praying for Raymond and his wife, and their beautiful children, and my friends, and the shrill whistle that penetrated the air didn't seem unusual with all the singing. This time the final bucket of water was so hot that I fell forward to find cooler air to breathe; just as I was falling the flaps were again thrown open. Such relief, such perfect timing . . . Raymond, you are too much.
This time as I gazed with a broad smile across at the women, I saw such beauty in womanhood sitting in front of me as I had never seen before. Here, sitting with me, seemed to be the ideal image of a woman, full of such peace and countenance, warm dark eyes full of earth, and it almost seemed that these ladies were growing right out of the earth. I was completely overcome with such a love for these people, my body was filled with their spirit.
Raymond prepared a large pipe with tobacco, smoked some and then passed it around to each participant. It was a small ritual, but it strengthened the bond between all of us; we were all sharing the same pipe, the same space. Then darkness, the flaps were closed again.
The third sweat was totally timeless. It could have lasted for hours, I was so high and praying like I had never prayed before. I was laughing and singing, yelling, trying to harmonize with the Indian songs, never quite making it, but it didn't matter. Even the heat was singing, and the lodge was filled with the sound of people slapping themselves . . . Raymond's wife had said earlier that if it got too hot, just slap where it was hot. I tried it, and the heat seemed to get worse. Must be something the Indians know how to do that I don't.
I was spinning in joy when the flaps were opened for the third time. The women came from the universe, and their children, their children were the most beautiful I had ever seen, so light, so joyful. Raymond turned to us and said that the spirit had spoken to him, and had told him that all of our prayers would definitely be answered, if only we would be good. We felt so good, the spirit had come, everyone was so happy.
It was only much later that someone told me the spirit had entered during the second sweat, and that he had blown his own loud whistle upon entering. The whistle . . . no one in the lodge had a whistle, who could have blown it? I know now that it was the spirit.
Darkness again, for the last sweat. I started to sing, but soon realized that I was being drawn to chant a mantra I had learned from the Maharishi Mahesh, one that I had used daily for over six years. I was going into deep meditation, transcending the heat and the darkness.
There was a strange noise to my left, the sound of a bird flapping its wings, and just then I felt the wing of a large bird rub up against my mouth and around my face. 'Far out,' I said, 'I just got rubbed by a bird . . . ' And then it flew on to my right. More chanting of my mantra, more heat, more incredible singing, such a sound, I could hardly believe it was really human.
Then I thought to myself, wait a minute, what is a bird doing in this place? How did it get in? It wasn't possible for anyone to be running around inside, there just wasn't enough room. And before I knew it, the flaps were opened for the last time. I turned to Jerry, who was next to me on my right. He was wiping the weirdest-looking stuff off of his forehead, almost looked like the stuff you blow out of your nose. But coming from his forehead. And his forehead had a bright red line running across it.
Everyone was so high, hard to believe. Slowly we filed out of the lodge, to the left of a mound of dirt at the opening with an animal's skull sitting on top, everyone laughing and oblivious to the falling snow. Dale, Jerry, Eric and I walked slowly the 200 yard to the cabin, the snow melting as it hit our skin.
As we dressed I asked Dale if he felt a bird flying around in the lodge, and he laughed at me. 'Man, that was an eagle.' I told him how the bird had rubbed up against my mouth. 'Maybe he was telling you something old buddy.' More laughter by everyone. and I said, 'Maybe I use my mouth too much.' I spoke the truth.
Dale said that the eagle had stopped in front of him and had blown cool air into his face. And once before the bird had only appeared to Raymond's wife, and he had heard her praying and thanking the spirit for visiting her. By the time we were dressed we were in that blissful place so desired yet so seldom experienced during life, and we all knew it. We marveled at how high we felt, how beautiful everything was, and on and on.
Back inside Raymond's house a giant banquet was waiting lot us, fried chicken, roast beef and all the goodies we had brought from town. What a feast, the whole family sitting together at the table. Clyde, the 10-year-old, finished first, and sprang up to a chalk board behind the table. He wrote 'Love is happiness. Some bring it by coming and some bring it by leaving.' And then lie laughed, having put in his two-cents-worth.
We literally floated through dinner, agreed that we felt good enough to try and make the drive back to Salt Lake, said many, goodbyes to these warm people, and set off from this Indian household late at night, in a driving snowstorm, for the trip back.
Eric drove us through and over a most incredible snow-covered road. In fact, there was no road to see, and the falling snow seemed like strobe lights hitting the windshield. We passed over an h000-foot pass, totally dangerous, without a hitch . . . we all knew that nothing could go wrong. We had the power, whatever it wat .
Back to Salt Lake for a few hours of sleep, and then we caught an early morning plane to San Francisco. Into a car and on the freeway to our homes in Santa Cruz . . . Man, I had sat with an eagle. We had all sat with an eagle, and we knew it, and what does it mean? I hope to sit with an eagle again.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:35:35 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I have done several Indian
Message:
Sweat ceremonies, and a spirit quest, where I went out into the woods alone without food for a week.

I had powerful experiences compacted into in a few minutes and days even more so than I did from years of practicing the knowledge. None of which lends credence to either of the two as a suggested spiritual path, cause and effect might be a better example of why I experienced what I did.

It bears asking the question, what is all of this talk about spirit? it seems that deprivation on the one hand, (fasting) and physical assault on the other (extreme exposure to heat) sets up a unique sensory experience that blows the ordinary funtional mind . You want to run away from the heat, but you don't, and you want to eat but you don't either. You endure the discomfort and your ordinary mind aborts. You are taken outside of your comfort zone with no guidelines and the insuing experience is often interpreted as something outside of yourself
like a spirit, a higher power etc. If the proper indoctrination is in place beforehand, that concept will be there to capture your thoughts and vision and that is what you will gravitate towards.

I was told that the grandfather spirit would enter the sweat lodge, and by group agreement that is what we were sure had happened afterwards.

I was told that god was on this planet, now this was a movement that I could really get behind and by golly, we set about doing what we had to do to produce this result through our thoughts and actions. And this is what I conditioned myself to experiencing, a false concept that lasted for years.

None of those concepts about M pertains to me today. Except at the time I acted on them as if those very concepts and M were real, and I got back out of it an experience that I 'thought' was real. Now that I see what a farce it all is, I also see that I can have what I want for myself spiritually (for lack of a better term) and I can fill in my own blanks.

I now choose to work with a blank canvas inside of myself, each day I paint a new picture according to my actions and words, and I am free to make such decisions accordingly as long as they are ethical, honest and cause no harm to anyone. This is a basic analogy of my sense of freedom so don't take it literally please, there is no imaginary Brian busy inside working away with a paint brush.

I now see that my reasons back then for buying into the cult was a result of my being accessable due to my vulnerability to the influences that presented themselves as a higher authority.

I had nothing to go on, I was venturing into strange territory, where PWK's and mahatma's reigned, I was out of my comfort zone, giving up my concepts. Now I realize that I was just taking on someone else's beliefs and concepts, and where is the spiritual knowlegde in all of this? I was supposed to be escaping concepts, not taking on more, sheesh.

It turns out as I progress in my exiting process that the choice was always within me, and I realized where I had been remiss when I relenquished my power to discern where I began and where the spiritual influences, or concepts left off. It is an entanglement that many may never escape, I consider myself one of the lucky ones.

The difference for me today is that I am a complete package as far as my needs for spiritual enlightenment are concerned. I can fill my own cup from my own source and I do not require or need a master telling me how to satisfy myself or dog me down.

I don't think that anyone does

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:29:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: ***BEST OF....*** Brilliant, Brian
Message:
I see more everyday that I actually brainwashed myself because I wanted so desperately to believe that the reincarnation of Jesus would bring peace into this world.

Yes, I prefer the blank canvas approach nowadays too. I feel like a teen again - open to learning new stuff and not having to fit it into some preconceived framework.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:17:45 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: You explained that really well...
Message:
Recieving Knowledge WAS like steping out of one's comfort zone, letting go of ones concepts, and all the while being told that Knowledge and Maharaji were NOT about concepts, but about feeling and experience. And when the M and K concepts just crept in anyway, and you spotted them, it was your ''mind'' or the ''doubtmaker''. It could be so subtle, I wasn't even aware of it happening. Then before you know it, it's ''Leave no room for doubt in your mind, because you don't want to lose that nice feeling, do you? So leave no room for doubt in your mind, be grateful, hang on to That Experience, and write a check to support M in his work... you DO want to help M spread this Knowedge, don't you?''

Thanks for comparing it to the Indian sweatlodge thing, I had always wondered what that was all about. The way you described it makes sense. At least the Indians didn't ask for a Malibu Mansion and private jet, eh? ;)

Oh, and I especially liked the part about ''...I also see that I can have what I want for myself spiritually (for lack of a better term) and I can fill in my own blanks.'' It's very freeing to realize that, that you can have that WITHOUT the Goober.

Your whole post was very clear - Thanks!

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 14:30:36 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Its a very humble philosopy
Message:
> Thanks for comparing it to the Indian sweatlodge thing, I had always wondered what that was all about. The way you described it makes sense. At least the Indians didn't ask for a Malibu Mansion and private jet, eh?

No, the American Indians only asked that you take care of the Mother Earth, be ecologically conscious, walk the red road in life, ('do unto others as you would have them do unto you') don't take the black road, (participate in evil, dishonest deeds ) appreciate all things on the planet from the rocks and stones at your feet to your very life source itself and respect the life of everything in between. Even the rocks, and water have life according to the Indians.

Just a good simple philosopy, no collection plate passed just contribute your small part individually to make the world a better place to live.

They have their boogeymen (evil spirits) and their messiah (grandfather spirit), but as far as religion goes, I would say this is one of the better ones.

I would rather sit in a sweat lodge than go to church anyday, at least in the sweat lodge I will open up my pores and purify my body.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:28:43 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis
Message:
Thanks Jean-Michel,
Brilliant article - but it is painfull to confront how foolish I/we were being on the side of the premies.
During the 70's, whilst many of my peers were trying, whether or not successfully, to do something about the real problems in the world through political activism, I was becoming a premie.
Maybe if I'd joined those politicos I would have, like a few did, gained a position of power and influence rather than being an unskilled, powerless member of the proletariat now too old to do much about becoming anything else, due to having wasted a quarter of a century pursuing mystical goals.
It's embarrassing to read the piece,as I remember someone outside the Astrodome festival trying to get me to read what I think was the same article, of course no premie would read such a thing and regarded all those who wrote or read such things as sad and dangerously lost in the illusion of their evil minds.
There are so many good parts but just to pick out one premie's answer to the criticisms made by the journalist...
As we made our exit, two men from the office followed us out onto the street. They wanted to give us some more Satsang, and couldn't understand why we were angry and upset. One of the men was genuinely confused, and wanted to smooth things out and make us feel better. The other stood there mocking us, grinning and staring and full of hate.
Suddenly I lost control and started screaming that they were robots, incapable of understanding or displaying any human emotions or reactions. Smack! Everett (the one with the evil eye) hit me in the face with a roll of posters (of the Guru, no doubt) he was carrying. 'That's reaction,' was his only explanation.

What is even more embarrasing, although I gradually came to realise it as I was going through the gradual process of deprogramming myself, is that the whole thing was such a conservative, right-wing, even racist movement founded on mind control and emotional manipulation rather than the more sane approach of rational debate.
Oh well
berni
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:16:07 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: We Were Young, Bernie
Message:
I don't know about you, but I did all kinds of dumb things as a youth. It is called IMMATURITY. We must forgive ourselves and try to laugh a little bit about our folly
---
and be thankful that we are wiser now.

It is an evil thing to take advantage of the young, for they do not have the proper defences and life experience to know that they are being had. You can tell a little child anything and he's likely to believe it. An 18 year old is not much different.

What did we have to compare this thing with? Only our upbringing, which many of us were so eager to abandon, that it made us vulnerable. It is called REBELLION. So we were immature and rebellious
---
let's get on with it now that we see the big picture!

I NO LONGER: ride motercycles at 120 mph, have intimacy with everyone I meet, wear miniskirts and tube tops, insist that the whole world be vegetarian, drive a beat up Volkswagon, decorate my home with Indian tapestries, think that soybeans are going to save the world, make my own tofu, believe that the third world is where it's at, and think my parents were terribly stupid.

It's embarrassing to admit that I was the stupid one, but like Mark Twain observed, when he was 15 he thought his father to be the most ignorant person, but at 21 he was amazed at how smart his father had become in 6 years.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 22:39:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: dear Mark Twain
Message:
Mark Twain observed, when he was 15 he thought his father to be the most ignorant person, but at 21 he was amazed at how smart his father had become in 6 years.

Now that man often made sense unlike Rev Rawat but of course, as Chuck and Brian pointed out, his holiness deliberately does not make sense in order to blow our minds and produce bliss.

I just love MT. Yes, we were young and rebelling against parents and society.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:25:29 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Today's cult same, different packaging...
Message:
Berni, the passage you quoted so well describes the CAC mentality we have so recently experienced. How little things have changed, in essence.

One of my favorite quotes was right at the begining: 'Before it ends, we will doubtless see decadence in many forms...' How prophetic! To some people it was obvious even then.

I got K in the early eighties, and much of this background stuff was unknown to me. I knew somethings about the Guru's wealth, but not the extent of it. The Knowledge Lite era had begun. The whole thing was being presented with a new spin. Reading so much about how it had been earlier on, explains to me SO MUCH. The begining contained the seeds of everything that came after.

Current PWK's claim that everything has changed so much. It would seem that the only thing's that have REALLY changed are that information is now better hidden than ever, and a new language and spin control is used to present M&K to new people as not a religion or a cult. It's now a slick indoctrination process, to accept M as a teacher, then a Master, then as You-Know-Who. The spin CONTROL is what I felt mostly, when I was last involved nine months ago. What they are calling propagation is pathetically awful. It's just about keeping the Goober and his family in the luxury they have become accustomed to having.

I'm sure we all have some misgivings for being involved for so long, like you expressed. Hopefully we have all learned from the exprience and can warn others by helping them recognize the manipulation, and also help others figure their way out of M's grand mind-fuck. I know that's the main reason I post here, and why I made the website Maharaji Watch, to give people as much information as possible. The lies of the cult don't hold up to scrutiny, and talking about our experiences on this forum helps bear witness to that. In that respect our unfortunate experiences can at lest help others. And we are out of the cult now - YIPPEE!!! Better late than never! I'm feeling more peace of mind and happiness than I've felt in years, without the Goober sitting on my neck. No one should have to sacrifice honesty in order to feel happy.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:04:45 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Today's cult same, different packaging...
Message:
Hi Chuck,
Just wanted to say well done with your Maharaji Watch site.
Although I've visited before ( great collection of links ) this time I enjoyed the premie site 'Deradune' where I found out that we are infiltrated with extra-terrestrials. I think the good lady who hosts the site would get on great with David Icke - but don't anyone go there! It seems funny at first but after a few pages you start getting funny feelings :/
http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index1c.html
cheers
berni
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:25:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: I should have read your post first, berni
Message:
You said almost exactly what I said and picked the same horrible passage. It really is embarassing to think we were so dumb.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:50:31 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: s'okay Pat
Message:
great minds... and all that. At least now we recognise that our minds can be great rather than something to be ignored and avoided.
cheers
berni
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:24:30 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Recovering our MINDS
Message:
Yeah, what is so bad about having a MIND? I never understood that. All I could see is that when something did not jibe with the DLM party line and there was any questioning, either openly or inwardly, it was chalked up to THE MIND, and quickly discarded. One of the hallmarks of a cult is that you are required to check your brains at the door.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:45:04 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: In New Premiespeak, Mind='Doubt Maker'
Message:
The latest fashion is to refer to the mind as 'the Doubtmaker'. You only need to be paranoid about the mind if you doubt the Master or His purity or his motives for what he wants. Having doubts about The Master can make you unhappy, so you shouldn't scrutinize anything he says or does if it's going to jeprodize 'That Experience'. M never said the mind was bad, we just misunderstood, or if he DID say it, he's evolved since then, and so should we, and throw away/destroy all those old tapes, videos, magazines and booklets where he says all those things that he never did say anyway ;)
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:17:59 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis
Message:
great article. I always thought that DUO/DLM/EV was a racist organisation headed by an elite.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:52:16 (EDT)
From: Toby
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Harbouring a terrorist , or
Message:
harbouring a paedophile.The terribrle events now
proof to anybody that whoever is harbouring criminals of any kind , do not only share their attitiude , they indeed live under the same blanket.
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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:55:18 (EDT)
From: swami j. suchabanana
Email: bananas@messengersofarchangels.org
To: All
Subject: approval of 'tactical nuclear' weapons
Message:
Tactical Nuclear Weapons Deployed
6 October: DEBKAfile’s military and intelligence sources report that Presidents George W. Bush and Vladimir Putin, in a single 70-minuted conversation on September 23, eleven days after the terrorist assaults in New York and Washington, agreed on the deployment of tactical weapons. This is an epic shift in the global balance of strength.
Putin gave the nod for US forces poised in Central Asia to jump into Afghanistan to be armed with tactical nuclear weapons, such as small neutron bombs, which emit strong radiation, nuclear mines, shells, and other nuclear ammunition suited to commando warfare in mountainous terrain.
In return, Bush assented to Russia deploying tactical nuclear weapons units around Chechnya after Moscow’s ultimatum to the rebels, some of whom are backed by Osama Bin Laden, to surrender, went by without response. DEBKAfile’s military sources place the US nuclear weapons in four former Soviet Central Asian bases: the military air facility at Tuzel, 15 km (10 miles) northwest of the Uzbek capital of Tashkent; at Kagady in the Termez region; in Khandabad, near the city of Karshi; and at the military air base in Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan.
In addition to the nuclear weapons units, Russian bombers carrying small neutron bombs were moved to Russian military air bases around the border of the breakaway province, in Stavropol northwest of Chechnya, the Godowta base in Georgia to the south, and Mozdok in northern Osetia, northwest of Chechnya.
Russian and U.S. military sources refuse to take questions on these startling events.
The US is far from eager to actively inject a nuclear element into the war against terrorism and will not be the first to do so. According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, the US plans to hold those tactical nuclear weapons in reserve, unleashing them in the campaign against bin Laden only in certain extreme circumstances:
1.  To counter a move by Bin Laden’s men first bring out nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against the US force fighting inside Afghanistan.
2.   If a chemical or biological assault by the Taliban against Pakistan.
3.   Should groups of bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network – either in Central Asia or the Balkans – wield these weapons of mass destruction against US military targets or US nuclear arms in other parts of the world.
4.  If using them is the only way to save heavy American combat casualties.
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 05:41:47 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: swami j. suchabanana
Subject: Fighting the mindset of fanatics
Message:
Thanks for that Such, although, after hearing a discussion on some news programme last night about the possible nuclear war between Israel and Iraq, I think I would be better off not knowing any of this stuff.
Do they know what they are doing?
There is no doubt that this will escalate quickly - in the last few days the riots in Pakistan and the protests by Muslims in other parts of the Middle East point to gathering division between the two sides in what will undoubtedly be a 'holy war'. I can't help feeling this is exactly what the terrorist attack on the WTC set out to achieve.
What I can't understand is the long term aim of this 'war on terrorism'. In this case it translates into a war on muslim fundamentalism which can never be won. I know Divine Light Mission is a far cry from the fanaticism of the various Islamic groups, but, having been in such an organisation we know that the more the leader/guru/master is attacked the more the followers will stop at nothing to carry on the way of life that the master/cult/holy book has laid down. It is not even direct orders such as fatwah or agya, it is a generic attitude to overcome the dark forces of the non-believers ( 'manmath' or whatever - the likes of us ).
It even seems, from the footage on T.V. of thousands marching with banners bearing the photo of Bin Laden, that the beginning of the attacks on Afghanistan is turning him into a hero and his religious/political teachings into something worthy in the eyes of many Muslims.
I know that there is a possibility that the invasion of Afghanistan may succeed in the aim of getting revenge on those suspected of organising the catastophe of Sep 11, but I just wonder how this strategy (whatever it may be ) will ever erase terrorism which is not centered in any country but in the minds of these crazy people in countless organisations and 'cells' throughout the world?
Does anyone think that those in power have considered the long term aims of what they are doing, as there seems to me and other powerless laymen that I have talked to, that what is going on could result in a world situation that doesn't bear thinking about.
Sorry if this is a bit OT but please, if anyone has anything positive to say about what is going on, speak up and help to set an old non-believing ex-premies mind at rest.
berni
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:00:23 (EDT)
From: Vera
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: possible outcomes to WW3
Message:
... if anyone has anything positive to say about what is going on, speak up and help to set an old non-believing ex-premies mind at rest.
berni


---

I think there are so many variables in this vast equation that no-one can predict how it will end - assuming it does - just as no-one could have predicted how the Cold War would end: in cinders or in the Soviet collapse. Just too many variables.

I think that with air superiority now apparently established in Afghanistan, the Taliban's days are numbered - which will be cheered by 99.99% of the world's population - and of Afghanistan's. Hopefully the US will be more careful than usual, and not slaughter thousands of civilians into the bargain: signs are that this is so far the case.

I guess what everyone wants to know is 'Will the war against terorism be won?' This depends on how big and well-resourced OBL's organisation - and its affiliates - are. No-one is too clear about this at present. Were the WTC attacks something which strectehd them to their operational limit? Or were they just a small example of what they're capable of? I don't know. Maybe the CIA has an idea by now.

Last week I wrote that these guys have biological weapons - which certain people here volubly doubted. I trust there are no doubters left now. It's also conceivable that they have, or will get, nuclear weapons - God knows enough Russian plutonium has gone missing - and (in the words of military historian Sir John Keegan, on Australian TV about an hour ago) will 'explode them simultaneously in six of the world's leading cities'.

Sorry to be 'Typhoid Vera' again: but it's best to face up to the possibilities - something which no-one as doing before Sept 11, quite clearly.

Finally, there's the complicating factor that even if al Queda et al are destroyed, that destruction may enrage and thus radicalise other Muslims - who will form new networks, and wreak new destruction a bit down the track.

As I've said from the beginning, only a more benign US foreign policy - one which does not annually murder thousands of innocent people - will stem the rising tide of Islamic emotion. There are signs around the world that this view is now being shared by many - including leaders - tho naturally no US media, or leader, have expressed it as yet.

Vera

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:10:58 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vera
Subject: Re: possible outcomes to WW3
Message:
I agree with most of what you've said, oddly, although I disagree with the notion that the US is indescrimitately 'murdering thousands of innocent people' (though you've at least stopped claiming *hundreds of thousands*). As I've said, I think those estimates are based on disinformation and wild extrapolations. Though it is possible that a lot of people have died as a result of sanctions on Iraq I suggest you read Berni's excellent explanation of the moral dilemma that I believe is involved there. It seems to me that in dealing with people like Hussein we have only a choice between the sledge hammer of war, and the claw hammer of sanctions. It is a crude, unjust and possibly inadequate response to the problem, but only makes things worse to mischaracterize it as 'murder.'

I'm also not very confident about our intelligence services. Seymour Hersch seems to think they're in a good deal of denial and disarray. If history is any indication they won't be in fighting trim for a good six months to a year, though the FBI seems to be doing a pretty good job of investigating after the fact. The CIA is a bureaucratic anachronism.

Regarding the instances of anthrax contamination, if that turns out to have been a terrorist incident it only demonstrates the inadequacy of this medium. The exotic nature of some of these weapons of mass destruction also lends itself to intelligence tracking. It was the 'common' character of the Sept. 11 hijackings that were their chief advantage, which is something you sacrifice if you get into nuclear, biological and chemical weaponry. The lust for that kind of power (and I *do* mean *lust*) may end up destroying these organizations.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:20:52 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: berni
Subject: Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics
Message:
Hi Berni

It is, as you say, turning into an unthinkable situation. It don't smell good to me. America sadly lacks creative leadership although the country is packed with creative people. Th problem is fairly clear, namely dogmatic and cult thinking, Fundamentalist narrow thought is deadly. As the late Krishnamurti said 'Ideals are dangerous things'. How do you derail or more to the point put back on the rails a rabid idealist? Certainly NOT by bombing him/her. Notice that it is usually him BTW,

So we need some different tactics. Bomb the countries with food conveniences and gifts, Show the people that they are not thriving under theocratic rule. Apprehend Bin Laden and give him a sex change. Start a dialectic on the value or otherwise of Belief (in my opinion more dangerous than dynamite) Enter into debate and bomb only with gifts.

OK you say that might be naive. Look what the alternative is..and has always been.
Love
Tim

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:29:48 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics
Message:
Bush and Putin aren't fools and Russia has vast experience in successfully (albeit brutally) dealing with terroism which can only help George W in making the right decisions. I think it's inevitable that this will fractionalise into two clearly opposing factions spread over a large area and not respecting national bounderies.

So there could well be civil war in Muslim countries and probably great civil unrest in Western countries too. There's already been considerable civil unrest and riots in British Muslim areas, before 11th September. This will only make things worse. However, the actual Musim countries where civil war may break out, such as Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, won't in my view destabalise the world because the people allied to bin Laden do not have the wealth and arms neccessary to overthrow their govenments.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:42:20 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: ground zero
Message:
Analysis

Who stands to gain?

Anyone introducing nuclear weapons in the area at this time has to be out of their minds.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:30:51 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: ground zero
Message:
Anyone introducing nuclear weapons in the area at this time has to be out of their minds.

I agree, and hope the rearranged logic isn't also true: 'Anyone who is out of his mind might introduce nuclear weapons in the area.' Because we know just who *is* out of his mind, right?

I have some fairly radical ideas about what we might have to do, but it's more along the lines of psychhological warfare than the use of mass destruction devices. So far the enemy has had the lead and advantage in psychological warfare, but that has to change. I think the really brutal stuff ought to be done by women, for their own reasons. I can't say exactly why, but it seems just to me. While it is men that have defended civilization in the great wars, it is women who have *preserved* civilization during upheaval. This is a different kind of war, that threatens hearth as much as institution, and the rage and indignation that women feel seems somewhat more appropriate than the institutional righteousness that I and my male colleagues feel. I don't think we're wrong... but it is easier to see, interpret and approve the outrage of women. Then again, it was mostly women who stormed the Bastille.

--Scott T.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 10:59:33 (EDT)
From: out of your mind or in your mind?
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: ground zero
Message:
Re: Anyone introducing nuclear weapons in the area at this time has to be out of their minds

You think many of the players in this war game are sane?
That's the big problem and why I ask if those who are supposedly on the side of world peace know what they are doing. The destruction of the infidel world would probably be rewarded in heaven - especially if the guy with the bomb in his suitcase was killed along with everyone else.

Thanks for the links Salam
cheers
berni

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:36:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: out of your mind or in your mind?
Subject: Huh?
Message:
The destruction of the infidel world would probably be rewarded in heaven - especially if the guy with the bomb in his suitcase was killed along with everyone else.

I... don't understand. Did you actually intend to say that, or is it a typo?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:39:05 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Huh? - typo?
Message:
Hi Scott,
What I meant to say was that there are many of these religious maniacs who think that the act of destroying thousands of non-believers like ourselves is an act of great virtue.
And that if they die themselves in the process they will be rewarded in Heaven.
It's true that I did not express it clearly but what did you think I meant?
berni
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:35:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Huh? - typo?
Message:
It's not clear from the statement that it's *their* belief that's being expressed. Thanks for clearing it up. I think the belief is a bit more complex than you present it, however, and involves detailed issues of doctrine as well as a good deal of machismo. For instance, I don't think they fear death as much is discomfort or humiliation. And there is also something implied in that doctrine that leaves them vulnerable to anti-cult tactics.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:29:29 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: out of your mind or in your mind?
Subject: bombs away !!!! yee hahh
Message:
C'mon anyone - tell me it's all for the best. There were so many advocating the current
attacks - but have you seen the suffering caused already from the footage on t.v. ?
Are we fighting terrorism with terror and are we sure those that are being killed and maimed are not innocent?
Bombing the hell out of Afghanistan such as power stations to cut off the few people that actually have electricity and the whole concept of 'bombing to smithereens a country so advanced it has, to date, laid a total of 18 miles of railroad tracks throughout the entire country! How very 19th century of them! I hope our missiles were able to take them out. I don't want this thing going on forever. Best that we obliterate them before they come up with some smart idea like the telegraph.' to quote one of the many American commentators that I admire - i.e. Mike Moore.
and who knows what else?
Couldn't they just have sent in a few teams of SAS types and captured the suspected terrorists?
This cannot be right.
berni

p.s. I suppose they did drop a few food parcels for anyone lucky enough to survive the Russians, the Taliban and the bombings.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:50:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Mischaracterization
Message:
You emphisize the fact that power plants (and some civilians) were harmed, but that we dropped a few insignificant parcels of food here and there. Do you know the quantities of either, because I submit that the extent of civilians harmed, and the extent of civilian aide, are vitally important pieces of information in assessing the situation. If, for instance, we happened to have killed (inadvertantly, for who could argue otherwise) a half dozen people, while providing food for fifty to one hundred thousand, then you'd have to completely abandon the principle of objectivity to see that as a nefarious abuse of power, or terrorism. Why are you using rhetoric that's virtually lifted from the enemy's malignant speech, delivered by UBL's right-hand man? I mean, I'm serious. Presumably you're not nuts, and you're not malignant, so I just don't get it. Are you hoping this is all a fanciful nightmare, and if we challenge the obviety of the circumstances we may just awaken to the smell of coffee and raspberry jam?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 05:23:05 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott - you've got it wrong
Message:
Hi Scott,
You are right to bring up the points you did. I don't know how many were killed or how much food was dropped. I made the post after seeing some distressing news footage and it was more emotional than rational - I guess I shouldn't watch the news ( although I can't help it ) as I cannot bear to see people getting killed by acts of violence by their fellow man. Yet I understand your logic - a classical ethical dilema. If you had to kill one innocent civilian who you knew was a good person, in order to save the lives of a hundred - then what do you do?
At University it was presented as being an infiltrator of a terrorist group arguing for the lives of some captured civilians. The leader of the terrorists says that you can let all the civilians go if you just kill one particular one who the leader has a personal grudge against. He hands you the gun and you have to do it there and then whilst looking in the face of an innocent person you are about to kill.

You say 'Why are you using rhetoric that's virtually lifted from the enemy's malignant speech, delivered by UBL's right-hand man? I mean, I'm serious.
I'm not sure which statements you are referring to - not the quote from Michael Moore, who I don't always agree with but who does make me laugh sometimes? - but it seems that you feel that I am against any sort of action that will root out those responsible for the terrible events on 911 and will prevent these maniacs from attacking the Western World again. You also seem to be saying that I sympathise with and am agreeing with the words of these people.
On the contrary, my post was only to ask if the alliance is doing the best thing to achieve these goals.
I don't know the answer but I see a few possible problems with the present course of action, although I would be only too pleased to be proved wrong in my unease. In a way that's why I post on this topic - out of a worry that each step in the fight against terrorism is being made in the right direction.
It's probably silly to even think about it as I have no power to influence the decisions of the generals and leaders, but it's difficult not to be a critic of government policy that will effect the lives of many generations to come.
If the only way to stop further violence and eliminate the threat of terrorist attacks by these lunatics is to bomb Afghanistan then I'm all for it, but my original post was asking how this was going to stop those religious fundamentalist who are only too pleased to die for their beliefs, from doing something similar to the WTC; or worse by using Nuclear or Biological weapons. Also, that attacking the members of a Muslim fundamentalist group in Afghanistan when, as John Simpson, a BBC reporter at the scene thinks, all the important members of Al-Qaed are not actually in Afghanistan? will only insense members of other Muslim fundamentalist groups worldwide and make the ill-equipped army that the allied forces defeats into heroes.
Do you disagree with this? and do you think the attacks will ever be able to obliterate all of them, because if only a handfull survive then... how many were on those highjacked planes?
Dave says that Bush and Putin ( and I hope he would include Blair ) are not fools. I agree, but when it comes to matters relating to trying to defeat a group of people with minds influenced by religious fanaticism, I am not so sure they know what that means. Have they ever been brainwashed, been members of such a cult and then managed to get out? I know that they probably have good advisors and are expert at war strategies but this is becoming a religious war, despite efforts to avoid it.
Just to say again that I have never intended to 'use rhetoric that's virtually lifted from the enemy's malignant speech' the more I read this the more I feel that you regard me as the enemy and in that you are wrong.
I totally agree with your statement ' we need to understand fundamentalist Islam, find it's weaknesses, and exploit them without any ruth. and I am not sure why you think so bad of me for just asking for some sort of reasonable opinion as to whether the present course of action is the best under the circumstances.
berni

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:30:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Scott - you've got it wrong
Message:
Berni:

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I think the enemy uses emotional reactions like yours to their advantage, which is why you hear people like Hussein and Al Queda spokespersons referring to American actions (provoked by the murder of 7,000 innocent civilians) as 'terrorism.' I did not think you would have said all that was in that post after serious reflection. You asked:

If the only way to stop further violence and eliminate the threat of terrorist attacks by these lunatics is to bomb Afghanistan then I'm all for it, but my original post was asking how this was going to stop those religious fundamentalist who are only too pleased to die for their beliefs, from doing something similar to the WTC; or worse by using Nuclear or Biological weapons. Also, that attacking the members of a Muslim fundamentalist group in Afghanistan when, as John Simpson, a BBC reporter at the scene thinks, all the important members of Al-Qaed are not actually in Afghanistan? will only insense members of other Muslim fundamentalist groups worldwide and make the ill-equipped army that the allied forces defeats into heroes.
Do you disagree with this?

Well, you know not responding to a bully out of fear of angering him is inappropriate, although this is frequently part of the threats presented by bullies. The fact is that having taken the action in the first place they have no moral or ethical right to claim outrage, and the emotional reaction is just part of the terrain of war. We need to take other measures to mitigate it, but want to point out something about Muslim beliefs (as I understand them):

The Islamic belief that fuels suicide attacks has to do with their doctrine of predestination, and we can influence how they see that in a number of ways. Also, unlike you, I think there are situations that require extreme responses and I feel that one thing that emboldens the opposition is that they don't fear us enough. They believe that we will treat them fairly if they are captured, primarily in terms of native comforts. We need to remove any notion that we will accomodate them in comfort, and emphasize the extent of thte *discomfort* and humiliation we feel they deserve. I won't go into more detail, but suspect that discomfort is a greater deterrent than death in he Moslem world, and especially with the Saudis. And I'm not just talking about making them eat peanut butter without milk.

This dimension is one reason I favored using women for as much of the ground attack as we can. It humiliates the enemy in a way that is less likely to give them justifications and honor in acts of terrorism, and casts acts of terrorism as acts of weaklings aimed at harming the weak and not the strong. But that's just a proposal. It's a complex situation, demanding a good deal of finesse. I'm not yet convinced that this administration has the required skills and knowledge, but hope they do. Chiefly I have reason to believe (because of the way they conducted the Florida elections) that they don't have a good understanding of the prinicple of political (public opinion) legitimacy.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:03:23 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: bully tactics
Message:
Scott,
I know that backing down and tolerating their crazy view of life is not an option. I agree the bullies must be stopped completely. My point in the paragraph you quoted was 'are we doing the right thing in bombing Afghanistan when, apart from Bin Laden, the most powerful members of his and linked terrorist organisations are not there. (in the view of John Simpson )?'. And although I know 'not responding to a bully out of fear of angering him is inappropriate' there is a case for not getting the billions of Muslims in the world riled by killing their fellows, even accidentally in the course of trying to kill terrorists.
But you have not answered one of my question e.g. Do you think they will be able to get all the fanatics belonging to al-Qaed or whoever the groups that identify with Bin Laden are?
Because if they don't then there will be no end to all this, and if they are not confident in doing so they could be making a big mistake.
I wish I shared your confidence, shaky though it seems, in the various political leaders who make up the alliance as I am not yet convinced that a more subtle, (perhaps more devious?) approach achieved through infiltration with the aid of this new world-wide alliance against terrorism, would achieve a better outcome.
I guess my trust in leaders took a bit of a bashing when I realised I had wasted the best part of my life supporting one who was taking me nowhere.
berni
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:34:28 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: da air drops by the infidels
Message:
Doctors without Borders
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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:34:27 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: bombs away !!!! yee hahh
Message:
What are we supposed to do? We want to knock out the Taliban, like cancer cells, and allow another, hopefully more humane government to take it's place. It will and has opened up the powderkeg of mass hysteria in Muslim countries, who have often been at war with each other anyway. I can't believe what I am seeing
---
-rioting, looting and shooting each other. Are they confused?

Why are we so critical of our own country (the USA)? Who hijacked the planes and killed 6,000+ people? Why have we never seen photos in the newspapers of the 9/11 dead, but Mr. Bin Laden's speech got a full page spread in yesterday's local paper. We are dealing with madmen, like primitive Hitlers, and they have invaded our borders and violated our people.

My 5th great grandfather did not fight against the British for nothing, nor my 4th, who fought and died at the Battle of New Orleans, nor my g-g grandfather, who died a miserable death in Andersonville Prison in Georgia, nor my father's brother, who died in Holland in WW2, nor my father, who risked his life in the Phillipine Islands and saw victory there in 1945. It was for freedom's sake, and that's just the way it is.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:18:16 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: I have to respond
Message:
to your post, because I'm troubled by the same things. I think we have to trust to the long run of history to make obvious what doesn't appear to be obvious to many in the heat of the moment. I also have to think that one reason we're seeing such loud and vocal uprisings is that these people don't fear us enough. In spite of what they say about us they know that they can count on our being 'fair' to the opposition, and they also know that they have something of a stranglehold on their own governments which fear fundamentalist Islam. I think we need to understand fundamentalist Islam, find it's weaknesses, and exploit them without any ruth.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 23:53:14 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: ok, do it.
Message:
if that's what you want. but don't cry foul next time.
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:01:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Help me out a little here.
Message:
Salam:

I can't figure out what your post is about, or who it's in response to. Do what? What does 'crying foul' mean? Seriously. I guess I can't figure out the hierarchies of some of these posts, where earlier posts are sometimes further right than later ones. I mean, it looks like you're responding to Berni, but in that case I have no idea what you're saying. You can't be responding to Susannah because your post is to the left of hers. Should I be using non-proportional fonts?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:41:16 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: there ye go
Message:
am replying to susanaaaaH's post. She think bombs are the solution.

In fact maybe she should propose that Americans should deploy their nukes too. That'll sort everyone one out, only there are 5 countries with nukes around Afghanistan.

but then again, she is being stupidly patriotic.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:51:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: there ye go
Message:
Salam:

I looked at her post again, and don't see anything in it about using nukes indiscrimitately, or at all for that matter. And I don't see how you'd conduct a moder war without bombing the enemy, destroying their infrastructure, etc. Next you'll be asking us to use rubber bullets? This is war, and we've certainly given the Taliban ample opportunity to meet are terms, which are immanently reasonable. They obviously didn't feel they could surrender without losing face, so I favor sending our female troops after them to make it absolutely clear how we feel about the 'stature' of this enemy. They are an affront not only to our time-honored institutions, but to our sense of decency. And if we don't have female troops trained to do the job, then put female commanders in the field. That's my take at the moment. Get them to fear our women, and hold the men in reserve.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:44:50 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: sorry I forgot
Message:
a war is not a war if it doesn't have good bullets. big fat ugly boombs half a ton each make good foder.

As for your suggestion on using woman. Have a considered if your plot fails. something like in 9 months you will have a lot of bearded little babies runing around screaming 'am an American Taliban'.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:04:07 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: They Understand Might
Message:
What is YOUR solution? These people do not understand negotiation, they understand muscle. Scott had a point. They have stopped fearing us. They know how psychologically weak we have become. And those who have benefitted most from the blood shed for freedom do not respect the sacrifice.

I don't know if it's hit you yet
---
but our borders have been invaded by evil men and they have murdered 6,000 of our own people. We can't be so wimpy, we have to show them what they understand. I think the gov. has shown great restraint, not inciting uprisings here (though the press might be guilty of that), and encouraging unity among the citizens.

Another thing is that we are not attacking the Afghanastani people, unlike the Bin Louden crowd, who seek to destroy America, the infidel. No, we are giving them food, and want to see them prosper in the future without the Taliban.

Does anyone here agree with me? If not, I'm going on the Paul Revere Society forum!

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 03:31:25 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: Re: They Understand Might
Message:
Well, I agree with you completely. Sounds like pure common sense to me. These people are a sick and fanatical cult like the Nazis and Stalinists.

I'm not that interested in the theoretical political stuff but I have seen enough of the real stories of the real people who died and those who were left behind to mourn and these people lived through war in their own supposedly safe and civilized working environment. This was not some piddly car bomb. This was a sophisticatedly planned act of war.

Tonight I heard this: ''The terrorists were living in America - hidden in plain view, our neighbors.''

We opened our doors and hearts to them as immigrants and extended them the same civil rights and protections as we have and that they wish to destroy. Hell does not have a furnace hot enough for them.

And, yes, we are also trying to help the civilians of Afghanistan. We are doing right and this is a just war.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 09:12:03 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: A just war?
Message:
In whois opinion? Exactly like the just gulf war in 1990, stopping Saddam from destroying the freedom loving nation of al-Saud and Al-Sabah. What shit you're talking about, or don't you read the news as to what has been said. Bin Laden is a product of America that has gone sour. Haven't you listened to what is being said? There is a subtle message in what bin Laden and his cohorts are saying. Put bluntly, he want to kill every American on the planet. what am trying to explain to susaanaaah is that while you people think that you are so clever with your little gadget, you have fallen for his polly. He wants you to come after him, to through bombs, kill civilians, destroy power plant and carpet bomb the desert looking for rats. He wants you to get into Afghanistan and do it, because the more you guys show your faces, the more reason he has to prove his point, that America is against Islam.

Do you really think that dropping a 1kg ration packs from the air is going to change anything. Who the hell do you think they are fooling?

Am sorry to say this, but I found this argument to be narrow minded. I do feel sorry for 4-5000 people dying for nothing but I do feel sorrier for few millions becoming homeless blah blah blah.

I would have thought that Americans having experienced what it means to live in pain and sorry that they might begin to accept the fact that they are part of the world, not the world. Obviously they haven't.

As for how brave or weak the Americans are, well, all I can say that the micky mouse show in Somalia said it all.

america is a great country and it has a lot going for it, being so, that doesn't give it exclusive right.

Anyway, fuck you. I don't feel like taking this argument any further. Unless of course u want to.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 20:07:56 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: A just war?
Message:
Salam, Are you an American? You don't sound like it. I don't know where you live, but we have freedom here and we intend to keep it.

We are not going to go the way of the world and become 'a part' of it in the sense that you allude. If terrorist bombs go off in Israel every day, in French cafes or British subways, it doesn't follow that we have to put up with it too. America will not go down without a fight.

Are we supposed to not do anything because we're afraid of all those nuts that will come against us? In this world we all have different roles. You could say that America is the policeman. People hate the po-lice, it's a hard job, but somebodys got to do it. And not just everybody gets to be one. You have to pass the tests, and they are indeed rigorous. No cowards need apply.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 22:46:44 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: Me an infidel?
Message:
may alaha smite me and my desendents for the next five generations.

Am a confused ex-Arab Aussie that followed a guru one day to get away from life's reality which I find myself being thrown back into.

You sound like a hot headed person, which I like. Unfortunatly as you can see on the top threads there are people complaining that this forum is becoming too ot and is not dealing with the issue of goober.

Personally I think that what is going on is having a tremendous impact on our lives and future. During the guru years I was told to forget it because it's mind blah blah blah and I am surprised to see people rejecting it. I can't for the life of me be quite when my country is at war. How can you?

Anyway, you rest assure that I don't agree with half of what you said and find it interesting to see the Am-erica is acting as a police. Who gave them that right? And what is so special about Am-erica that other countries don't have. As far as your goverment is concerned, they are the only democratic system that should be. Everyone else should prefrebaly stay the way they are. Yeah yeah, stop jumping up and down, you peobably want to shout and scream at me but a simple fact will tell you that am saying da truth. From Morocco to Iraq there are about fifteen countries with over 150million people each and everyone is living under a dectatorship regime. The only reason they can do that is because of Israil. Each and everytime peolpe in these countries stirr, some miracolous event happens that is caused by Israil. And because Israil the bastard country [in their term] of the west and particularly Am-erica everyone hates you. Arabs simply hate Americans. They were brought up like this, at school, between friends their parents. They don't know why. Ask yourself, really, deep deep inside. What do you know about the Arabs. Fuck all. all what you know is what you have been delibratly told through the press. you and me are sterotypes. We only see what they want us to see. what do you know about Islam? About from the word Islam, the Qou'ran and bin Laden, nothing else. Oh maybe you can add 'fatwah'. big deal.

So here you go, two camps wanting to wage war on each other with no clue as to why. Both camps are throwing insults and exchanging hostilities without any awarness as to the real reason.

And who is the really casualty. It's me and you dummy. the politicians are getting richer anyway this goes, the people are the one that take the flak.

And doesn't that lead to reacisim, I am better than you blah blah blah. and isn't racisim part of cults blah blah blah blah.

Do you get my point.

How ever said make love not war had a deep understanding of things.

But like I said to you, if you want to fight go ahead. In fact you should stop posting and go to the army. tell them how patriotic you feel and that you want to go and kill bin Laden. You want to wage jihad against the mujahideen.

Personally, I love the west and this is where am staying, the arabs, the jews, the Afghans, the Indians and anyone else can go and fuck each other. Am not contributing to the fight.

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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 23:44:09 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Me an infidel?
Message:
Alright already!!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 10:16:28 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Susannah
Subject: OK
Message:
Peace and flowers ());):)
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Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:18:12 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam, I thought you were an Aussie
Message:
You said: ''Bin Laden is a product of America that has gone sour. Haven't you listened to what is being said? There is a subtle message in what bin Laden and his cohorts are saying. Put bluntly, he want to kill every American on the planet.''

Precisely. You said it very well. Hitler also was a product of Britain's defeat of Germany in WWl. Like Hitler, Bin Ladoo feels that he is right and justified and is arrogant enough not to be afraid of the US. He needs to be made very afraid.

Now I will stop posting politics. I'll save it for AG in case I get blocked from here.

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