Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 07, 2001 To: Oct 14, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Joe -:- EPO is still NUMBER ONE -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:50:04 (EDT)
__ peg -:- Re: EPO is still NUMBER ONE -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:50:50 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Hi Peg -- here's how -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:20:16 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Another creative idea, ala Barbara -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:43:16 (EDT)
__ salam -:- you can also try -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:26:53 (EDT)
__ cq -:- It's a fait accompli, Scott - -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:41:40 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- In commando units? -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:03:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Re: In commando units? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:41:14 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Marines are a cult -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:30:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Marines are a cult -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:08:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ p -:- Re: Marines are a cult -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 18:36:57 (EDT)
__ such -:- da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:35 (EDT)
__ such -:- da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:27 (EDT)

Francesca -:- ARIZONA?? not the tea -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:32:20 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- must be a rite of passage -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:15:48 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Don'tcha just love those names (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:14:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Pretention alert -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:32:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- hey you've been there -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:18 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- step right up! hur-ry, hur-ry!! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:51:16 (EDT)

hamzen -:- My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:34:24 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Have you had a shower yet? -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:12:40 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Not much hate there everyone -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:24:21 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- more good writing, ham -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:49:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Yes, Ham, go go go! nt -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:16:32 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:46:28 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- Getting back..ON Topic..;-) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:47:49 (EDT)
__ __ Gregg -:- ON Topic..;-) -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:29:42 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Rich, this is hysterical -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:31:01 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :) -:- Yes, it's nice to be back! [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:06:57 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Not 'supporting him' but imprisoned by him. [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:19:51 (EDT)
__ Francesca ~) -:- My biggest answer to the premies -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:08 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- Re: My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:47:55 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Therapy. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:50 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Re: Rai etc -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:08:27 (EDT)
__ __ Gregg -:- OT to AJW re Rai -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:17:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Re Rai -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:03:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Rai's Up -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:22:25 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Mine too by and large...... -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:48:14 (EDT)
__ Brian S -:- Re: My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:42:00 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Sating the obvious well and patiently -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:09:25 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Everyone read Hamzen and here's more! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:44:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Rawat as a real person -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:36:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Great summary , Pat D -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 00:25:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- Pat D, GREAT post [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:56:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Rawat as a real person -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:38:38 (EDT)

Jim -:- David Andersen on 'catalyst' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:47:29 (EDT)
__ bill-fer allahs sake, -:- what 'beauty of the techniques'? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:24:36 (EDT)
__ __ Susannah -:- Re: what 'beauty of the techniques'? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:58:33 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Like some bad 50's ad -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:24:48 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Dear Ham -- drum & bass (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:01:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Great music taste Francesca -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:37:55 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: David Andersen on 'catalyst' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:22 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :) -:- **BESt OF FORUM** [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:03:39 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- YES! Thanks Timmi. [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- did goober massage dave with oil? [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:20:43 (EDT)

Abi -:- Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:04:36 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Being Re-abused -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:25:07 (EDT)
__ EiYDh -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:59:07 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- What a bunch of scumbags & lowlifes they are -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:14:39 (EDT)
__ __ Barbara -:- Darkness Masquerading as Light -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 01:00:34 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:15:49 (EDT)
__ __ Gina -:- Sommerville - Glasserly - Leitner - Jacobs -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:01:46 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:02:18 (EDT)
__ magiclara -:- Love and support from me tooo Abi (NT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:19:52 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:10:52 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- take care of yourself -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Dear Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:14:28 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Yeah such me too -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:06:18 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:41:15 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- I am so sorry to heard about this -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:54:43 (EDT)
__ Gina -:- Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:36:34 (EDT)
__ __ Suzanne -:- What license does Valerio Pascotto have? (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:10:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ The Fencepost -:- Valerio Pascotto's licenses -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:26:02 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:59:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Where's Abi's Post? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:30:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ABI -- YOUR POST DISAPPEARED -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:37:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- Re: Where's Abi's Post? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 21:57:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Have a good think, gerry -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:33:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks for that Joey -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:58:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- I thank YOU, gerry -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:35:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ jOHNt -:- wHAt the F**%& -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:23:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: here's the F**%& -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:39:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- racists -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:56:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: racists -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:33:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- prejudice -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:46:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: wHAt the F**%& -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:38:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- To Salam and JohnT -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:05:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: To Gerry -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:11:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- back to Joey -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 18:08:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- back to Gerry -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:28:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: To Salam and JohnT -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:53:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- what happened to Abi's post? -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 12:11:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __   -:- yep it did it again -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 12:17:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Try it yerself -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 12:14:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- cyber wormhole -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:25:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- SC complained about this also -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:54:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- indexing is corrupted -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:38:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :) -:- Thanks Selene! -:- Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:17:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gina -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:29:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PS to Abi -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Marcia Leitner is a lawyer -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:28:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS to Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:34:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: PS to Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:39:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: PS to Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:28:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:17:55 (EDT)

don -:- reply to bill -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:52:17 (EDT)
__ Jorge -:- Ugh! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:08:40 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:44:01 (EDT)
__ toby -:- to jm kahn -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:03:08 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:56:41 (EDT)

Disculta -:- Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:08:29 (EDT)
__ Toneete -:- Beautiful post -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:27:28 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- One thing puzzles me -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 20:03:38 (EDT)
__ The Post -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:44:49 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Thanks Disculta, saved it! [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:37:57 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- sleeping with one's ex -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:58:58 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :) -:- Hello to you Gregg! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:29:11 (EDT)
__ Francesca :) -:- Yes, PatC,** BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:03:32 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:51:08 (EDT)
__ karen -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:48:42 (EDT)
__ __ Vera -:- do we know each other? -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:31:27 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Welcome, karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:05:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Yes, welcome Karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Yes, welcome Karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:34 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** in ages -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:27:36 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Re: ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 23:20:14 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:05:46 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Helmet Controversy -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:07:11 (EDT)

[Blank] -:- To da American Infidels -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 21:27:53 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:50:04 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EPO is still NUMBER ONE
Message:
Hi guys, just got back from a long trip, but just checking in to say that I just looked again at the Lycos search engine which will search websites by which ones get the most traffic. When asked to search for which 'Maharaji' sites get the most traffic, Ex-premie.org is, once again, numero uno.

Drek's site is number two, Maharaji's site is FOURTH and Elan Vital is FIFTH. Parts of the EPO sites are 6th and 9th. Sir Dave's 'truth about Maharaji' site is 7th, which is no longer on line, even through much of it is now on 'It Is So.'

The section of the EPO site with the plans to Maharaji's 'residence' get so much ilnternet traffic, that particular page is the 9th most popular.

You can see for yourself at www.lycos.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:50:50 (EDT)
From: peg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: EPO is still NUMBER ONE
Message:
Hi again Joe! Wondered where you'd got to.

If you can be bothered, could you tell me how to do a search like that, I couldn't work it out.

Peg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:20:16 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To:

Subject: Hi Peg -- here's how
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:43:16 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Another creative idea, ala Barbara
Message:
Hi:

I was just talking with an old girlfriend of mine from HS and she had this marvelous idea on how to conduct the war in Afghanistan; something I'd never have thought of myself. I don't know if it's entirely feasible, but there might be a way to operationalize it on some scale. Basically her idea is to have units composed of women during the ground war. Now, I don't think we have such units now, and don't think we've trained women to do that anyway, but why couldn't we field a few Special Forces units composed entirely of women and use them in the critical assault of the Bin Laden forces if and when we identify their location? What a total and complete humiliation of these machismo blowhards! He would hardly be regarded as a martyr, having been defeated by mere women, and it also says something about the US attitude toward terrorism. Now don't take this the wrong way ladies, because this is from the point of view of the Muslim world, but it says that we don't even regard these terrorist units as worthy adversaries for our men. We let our women take car of them! Now, isn't that an absolutely GREAT IDEA? The question is, how do we convince Bush to start training female commandos?

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:26:53 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: you can also try
Message:
Air drops
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:41:40 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: It's a fait accompli, Scott -
Message:
I just went to the Marines' website at http://www.marines.com/tour/02strip/index.html and couldn't believe the headline which reads:

'One must first be stripped clean. Freed of all the false notions of self'. Blimey, sounds like a boot camp for Buddhists.

As to women in the forces, quote 'Today, 768 women account for 4.3 percent of all Marine officers and 8,051 women make up 5.1 percent of the active duty enlisted force in the Marine Corps. These numbers continue to grow, as do opportunities to serve. Ninety-three percent of all occupational fields and 62 percent of allpositions are now open to women.' (From http://www.usmc.mil/info.nsf/Women)

You wanna see what a 'Lady Leatherneck' looks like?
Just click here (and you may be surprised!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:03:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: In commando units?
Message:
Chris:

It was my impression that women are not used as frontline troops or ground combatants. There also aren't any women in the Delta Force. Anyway, there aren't any all-woman units, which is essentially what is required for the idea to work.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:41:14 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: In commando units?
Message:
It would make a great headline though, wouldn't it?

'Pvt. Benjamin body-bags Bin Laden' !

There was a documentary a couple of nights ago on UK television about the Marines, which showed one of the women's corps going through the 'trial of fire' intensive training known as the 'Crucible'. I mistakenly(?) thought that women were therefore used in front-line combat situations.

In fact, there were two women taken prisoner in the Desert Storm war, one of them being US Army Major Rhonda Cornum, who was taken as a prisoner of war when her Blackhawk helicopter was shot down over Kuwait.

http://www.fas.org/man/crs/92-008.htm states (as of Dec. 1996)

'Currently, women are still barred from many combat positions by service policies. Secretary Aspin asked the services to reconsider the exclusion of women from other combat jobs outside of front-line infantry and armor units, and on Jan. 13, 1994, announced new rules that would allow women in more combat support roles but continue to bar women from direct ground combat units.'

'… Women already serve as Marine Security Guards for U.S. Embassies overseas and may serve as Hawk Missile technicians and operators. Examples of jobs closed to women are combat engineers, infantry, and tanks. All pilot positions remained closed to women at the end of 1992, but after Secretary Aspin's announcement of Apr. 28, 1993, the Marine Commandant said women would in the future compete for aviation slots on a gender-neutral basis.'

Also see
http://militarywoman.com/academic.htm for debate and discussion on women in the military.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:30:23 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Marines are a cult
Message:
I know guys you just didn't know anymore after they came out of bootcamp (basic training). Totally different from when they went in. Gungho like you wouldn't believe. Scary, but I guess that's the best way to prepare a guy for war, make him love it. If you want to see a great film on bootcamp, check out Stanley Kubrick's 'Full Metal Jacket'. There's a scene in there where the drill seargent is bragging about Lee Harvey Oswald's marksmanship. 'WHERE DO YOU THINK OSWALD LEARNED TO SHOOT LIKE THAT?! THAT'S RIGHT, GODAMMIT! IN THE MARINES!!' There's another scene where the recruits are trained to repeat after the instructor 'Killing is fun.... Killing is fun.... Killing is fun....' Too much. Kubrick at his best.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 19:08:42 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Marines are a cult
Message:
The real USMC hymn isn't 'from the halls of montezuma' etc , but

HYMN , HYMN , FUCK HIM .

Kubrick's antennae didn't reach right down into gonzoland.

I have a very good friend who is USMC retd. I think it's more a brotherhood than a cult , but I wouldn't argue the toss.

I'm glad they're on our side anyway , cult or not.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 18:36:57 (EDT)
From: p
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Marines are a cult
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:35 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards...
Message:
oh, ye strap-on batallions, allons enfants de la mere tri-couleur!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:27 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards...
Message:
oh, ye strap-on batallions, allons enfants de la mere tri-couleur!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:32:20 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ARIZONA?? not the tea
Message:
Just echoing Donner's post and Jean-Michel's post below about the recent meeting with M and the 'donors' in Arizona. Anybody have any concrete info about when, where, who went, how invited, and what went on? Inquiring minds ... and all that.

Peace,

F

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:15:48 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: must be a rite of passage
Message:
That I don't have a clue what they met about.
Last I heard it was a fund raiser for Amaroo and a synchronicity tune-up. I'd be willing to say it involved money somehow. But
alas, none of them talk to me anymore. oh and i'm sure it was Phoenix, no where left in AZ to go.
M likes The Pointe an exclusive resort. That's where he was last in AZ, eesh what a memory I brought my husband. What a polite person he is, to not have told me to take the shuttle home.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:14:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Don'tcha just love those names (OT)
Message:
That I don't have a clue what they met about.
Last I heard it was a fund raiser for Amaroo and a synchronicity tune-up. I'd be willing to say it involved money somehow. But
alas, none of them talk to me anymore. oh and i'm sure it was Phoenix, no where left in AZ to go.
M likes The Pointe an exclusive resort. That's where he was last in AZ, eesh what a memory I brought my husband. What a polite person he is, to not have told me to take the shuttle home.


---

... like 'Pointe'??? They are so pointless!!! Pretention alert! It reminds me of cheezy new subdivisions with oversized homes and carriage lamp lights. Ah yes, we are wealthy, uppercrust (uh, make that uppercruste). More like the new money crowd. Ah, yes, they are so, so ... riche!

I always thought that M went for a lot of stuff that was cheezy and pretentious, but we told ourselves he had such 'immaculate' and 'impeccable' style. I kinda excused him because he was like a Hindu kid in a candy store in our culture. He's probably gotten a bit better, but he is so much like someone who doesn't know what to do with all that money, so into pretention and looking the part of the rich man. Always hob nobbing in Beverly Hills on the premies' dime. Oh, and the latest is that he's an 'ordinary guy.'

LOLs, sweetie.

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:32:39 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Pretention alert
Message:
Yeah right , I'll bet he's so proud of himself that he had the good taste to turn down the rhinestone encrusted suit with the slight flare to the trouser leg that he always fancied when he was about 12 .

You've gotta laugh at the little prick.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:18 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: hey you've been there
Message:
yeah, pretty silly stuff. I was being generous calling it exculsive.
I think the claim to fame is that it is built on a hill of barren rock, so it's higher in elevation than the rest of that dismal city.
hmmm.. they must have gotten summer rates or the McXXXXX's are in
persona gratis status. (Hi you two how's it going? Heard your kids got knowledge. hmmm.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:51:16 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: step right up! hur-ry, hur-ry!!
Message:
Supplies are limited!

http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/hottopics/attack/exploi100801.htm

Yes, ma'am, dose cwazy dude pinatas are selling like hotcakes. btw, re 'bin laden'. is dat, like, 'a weighted down, vermin-teeming garbage bin reeking of rotten pork'?
[ http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/hottopics/attack/exploi100801.htm ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:34:24 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My/Your reasons for being here
Message:
Bjorn has just asked me why I am into anti-propagation, when I got so much from the practice of knowledge. A good question I thought.
Wondered what everyone elses reasons were for being here, since the hate filled one is so obviously a caricature.
Mind you in premie terms, it probably is hate, because any expression or discussion about anything dark is negative and anti-life. Why would anyone focus on such thoughts etc etc

The following is my post to Bjorn

Your post
''There are loads of exes who got plenty from the practice of k, and who state it quite openly, if anything I got more from it than I had hoped, and my hopes were quite high.' why spend time and energy doing antipropagation?'

There are a number of reasons for me personally, can't state for anyone else.

Committment to truth.
Having been brought up by a buddhist inspired single mother very committed to human justice and truth, and having been inspired by that from the start, I know I can't just switch off from it because it's uncomfortable to face it/deal with it.
I would much rather be doing other things with the time I spend around this issue, (still a VERY small part of my life, and greatly reduced during the last year) but that would be too easy.

(1) I know for a fact that there are loads of premies suffering from mental constrictions and lila knots that they don't know how to deal with.
A fellow called Bryn put up his journey on forum 7 the other day that explained why the ex-premie site had been so valuable to him. It had been the verbalizing of feelings he'd had for years but had never found the language to express it with, that site gave him the language to embrace the courage/resolve to finally move on.
I know countless instances of others expressing exactly the same sentiments.

(2) The realization that gm had no intention of truly spreading the value of k, the time I wasted hanging around, constantly making excuses for him, and blaming the premies and EV for the total failure to spread something I saw as totally precious. In other words doing my bit not not let him get away with it quite so easily as he had done for thirty years.

(3) The HUGE waste of funds and energy put in by premies thinking they were helping to spread k, when mostly they were just enabling gm to act like a kid in a sweetshop.
Did you know he's so committed to spreading k that he will not do tours unless he's GUARANTEED $10,000 a day in expenses. I had no idea just how corrupt he was til I read that, and had it confirmed from a number of reliable sources.

(4) Finding out about the historical roots of k, and realizing just how many lies I'd been told over the years.
Parallel to this, reading about the follower of the completely fake nigerian guru maharaji who posted at the forum three or so years ago, who came upon our site by accident, and had been having very powerful, beautiful meditation experiences, and had been attributing them to HIS guru maharaji who he thought was the source of those experiences.

(5) This made me realize just how much those of us who had gained a lot from k had been denying just how much the pleasure we had had from k had been purely our own focus & personal 'grace'.

(6) Hearing from so many ashram premies the garbage and abuse they had taken from gm over the years, especially those who had had regular official meetings with him re ashram stuff, and the awful health & safety abuse of the DECA premies indulging in another of gm's whims and whipping boy mentality.

Tied in with this was my realization at how unjust I had been from my lofty spiritual perch over the years with official premies, I owed it them to do my bit for all my bad judgements. Again tied in with this the realization that a lot of them were VERY sincere in their practice over the years, but had experienced very little, and weren't just fakes and poseurs as I had always assumed.
Again I owed it to them.

(7) Reading the outright lies posted by EV and gm about the historical route in the west he had taken, and why the ashrams had existed. That they think they can get away with that is outrageous and an affront to too many people who knew completely differently, almost on a par with soviet revisionist history, even I never thought he could stoop THAT low.

Also the fact that when people signed up to the ashrams they had made a contract with gm, they surrendered the reigns of their lives to him, and his part of the contract was that he would enable them to stay in the ashrams for their lives. He broke that contract very soon after he was still abusing people in meetings for leaving.

Last but very definitely not least, out of respect for all those supposed bongoes, who were totally committed to believing that gm meant every word he said, but were either unable to deal with the ashram pressure, or were unable to commit themselves as much as gm implied they should and felt unworthy, or just plain were getting no experience and felt again from many things he had said, that they must be unworthy, because the grace wasn't happening for them.
If a group of no more than 30 ex-premies could add up over 100 premie suicides, can you imagine what the full figure is like, heartbreaking to imagine.
Tied in with this was the kind of abuse that Jagdeo got away with for years, the abuse that those who've come forward have had to take from gm/ev because of that which is almost more insulting than the original abuse, the cover-ups for Fakiranand etc.
Also the fact that gm could abuse his authority and seduce premie women, and then dump them in a horrible manner is appalling.

I could go on, but those are the main points.

By the way I don't feel hate for gm, I feel a mixture of righteous anger, and sadness for him, for being so lacking in feeling and courage, truly a little man, when he had everything going for him, and a truly superb caring heartfelt bunch of individuals supporting him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:12:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Have you had a shower yet?
Message:
If communicating with a good, clear mind is invigorating and refreshing, what must be the effect of talking with Bjorn?

Excellent posts, this and the other recent ones, Ham.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:24:21 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Not much hate there everyone
Message:
So thats a premie cliche exposed, not much 'hate' being displayed from us all, but it does show up the language problem of being a premie, and how language becomes so corrupted that you don't have one left. ~As Bryn said for himself the other day, it took him miles longer to leave than it should have done because he had no language for dealing with it.

what has been interesting in my discussion with bjorn focuses on two points,
how unable they are to deal with critical thoughts because they are not suffused with a nice vibe, really it's back to that old one of 'the mind' being the problem. This leaves them unable to deal with the shadow side, uncomfortable feelings etc, because k is the be all and end all of everything in their conceptual bunker mentality, is like an embodiment of heaven in some way, and anything else just sullies it.

But it was also the other reaction about how criticizing gm is a form of abuse by us, which links in with the curious concept behind the cyberstalker caca site.
Think they definitely see us as cyberstalkers, which is such a weird perversion of the usual meaning of the word.

Think they got so used to no public criticism for ages because of gm's media blackout that they really thought they were protected. It must be an awful shock if you think like that to suddenly realize it's all out there in the open, and they are not protected in any way, that they just lose the plot.

As that article jm posted above shows, we really were out there in some conceptual never-never land, which comes through in a number of posts in this thread too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 02:49:12 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: more good writing, ham
Message:
The ecstatic ''love'' that PWKs feel for their dad/friend/master is fragile and emotional, not real love at all but childish infatuation and quite a bit of self-brainwashing or self-hype. It needs to be defended from all criticism as it really is a folie a deux and inexplicable to normal people.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 11:16:32 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes, Ham, go go go! nt
Message:
agd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:46:28 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: My/Your reasons for being here
Message:
Hi Hamzen. That's a great post..says it simply and poignantly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:47:49 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Getting back..ON Topic..;-)
Message:
I cant tell you how good it is to open the Webpage to This Forum and to find again...Cogent..Insightful and Relevant Posts about...of all things..MAHARAWAT..the Master..Mindfucker himself ...

It was a few months ago that I found this site and began the final Unraveling of the Odyssey that began in my adolescence when I picked up a hitchiker who was going to a meeting where they talked about a 14 year old boy who claimed he could reveal knowledge of God within..
And now, in the last year of my 4th decade I finally wandered across information and insight that let me see behind the curtain of the Great and Powerful Wizard...
This Forum, when On Topic, is a UNIQUE and Powerful Asset for those of us who were Ensnared in the Labyrinth Of MahaRawats Deceit. It is still all New to me..and though I am now convinced that MahRawat is a fraud...the Belief systems and the Energy I have Put into them over the years still linger...Robbing me of My Life..my Choice..My Freedom..
Though the World Events of the Last Month are Compelling...I personally have found the discussion of them on this forum to greatly dilute this forum's effectiveness...at least for me...Apart from being amazed and appalled by some of the commentary from people who I had formerly felt kinship with as fellow Ex-premies, I missed the focused discussion of MahaRawat and Knowledge that ONLY the Interaction on this site and the Information on Ex-premie.org gives me...
For those of you, who are dilitant exes...having left years ago and abandoned the belief systems impressed on us by The Satrugu...You May not have be aware that this Forum is a POWERFUL Aid in the Ongoing Process of Self Deprogramming that some of us are still going thru..

Anyway, I have little illusion of being able to direct the topic of conversation here..But I did want to Say Thank You, to those who have been posting so powerfully On Topic recently...Incredible Posts by Hamzen, Disculta, Francesca..come to mind...Anyway..thats it..and BHOLE SHRI EX PREMIE DOT ORG KI JAI!!....RichMandrake..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:29:42 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: ON Topic..;-)
Message:
Yeah, Rich, I too am glad we're talking about the Humbug behind the curtain. When I want to debate the merits of bombing Afghanistan, I'll do it with friends and family, and I'll read the news from all the wonderful news and opinion sites on the Web. (I won't sit in front of the tube for hours - too much obfuscation and speculation.)

But talking about a fradulent master preying on a bunch of innocent suckers by appealing to their better spiritual instincts...dis is da place for dat!

Thanks for your story, and best of luck in your ongoing deprogramming. It's really a universal story which goes beyond cults...we are all trying to drop crippling belief systems of one kind or another.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:31:01 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Rich, this is hysterical
Message:
Rich ended his post with this:

' BHOLE SHRI EX PREMIE DOT ORG KI JAI!!....RichMandrake.'

He he he

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:06:57 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Yes, it's nice to be back! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:19:51 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Not 'supporting him' but imprisoned by him. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:08 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: My biggest answer to the premies
Message:
Why do you care???

But you have said it all, and several others on here. If there weren't perfectly wonderful people straggling in, saying they'd practiced this stuff for 28 years, following M and trying to think the best, I'd bag it and we could just be an 'anything goes' discussion group.

But that's not the case.

My other big point, and my major one is that I didn't get as much out of Knowledge as I've gotten out of a lot of other types of meditation, and none of those other teachers or groups put me through the crap you get put through to receive Knowledge. This is what I told my friends Pat C. and Chuck S. over a year ago when we had our discussion where we were all examining our spiritual affiliations. (Subsequent to that discussion, we quit the groups we were involved in.)

The meditation techniques are not that awesome, really, there's loads of them out there to be learned. Thus I don't have anything to be eternally grateful for but what I tap into or focus on using those tecniques, that I can tap in and focus on a variety of ways, that I tapped in and focused on before I received K. And it's not a matter of gratitude, it's just a matter of waking up. Some of that is our own doing. Not to get lost in being egotistical about it, but there isn't this Spriritual Power, God or whatever that picks us up, totally clueless and useless until he/she/it does!!! We are a part of everything, and that thing we are told to worship is what WE are, in essence. You can't totally surgically remove it from the rest of yourself and worship it like that. But oh, people try to. What a trap.

Not only that, but along with the techniques comes M's messed up philosophy. The cruelest dualism M -- and the Hindu dogma that he derived his warped philosophy from -- whopped on us is that 'inside' and 'outside' stuff. Like the truth is inside, and this ucky stuff is 'the world.' I believe and experience that there are gross levels of reality, and believe and experience there are definitely what the Buddhists call 'kleshas,' or mental defilements that cover the true nature of things like clouds cover the sun. But there is still light, even behind the clouds. Put simply, we have moments where we are more aware, and in the present moment, than at other moments. I can't imagine someone trying to retreat "inside" during a major catastrophe, for example.

So I think, in the end, he does more harm than good, and those 'sincere seekers of truth' as he called us, should be told they might want to look elsewhere. I don't mind being a lighthouse on the rocks.

Love,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:47:55 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: My/Your reasons for being here
Message:
That's it exactly Hamzen. It's the first-hand testimonies of those who have been damaged and the blatant smokescreen the cult hides behind.
And it's still happening. It's why I care. On a personal note my life has finally come around quite nicely after a few years away but I'll never forget the lessons. NO MORE CHARISMAtIC LEADERS or personality cults.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Therapy.
Message:
Hi Hamzen,

I've found it very therapeutic to post on the forum. I spent so long in the cult, believing I was dedicating my life to the Creator, that it has taken a while to untangle myself and my thoughts from the shite I swallowed as a premie.

A couple of times I've had conversations here with people that have genuinely moved my perspective to a healthier place. And I thank everyone for that.

You develop a secret, hidden, fear as a premie, that, if you stop practicing and leave Rawat, something terrible will probably happen to you. Expressing my doubts and feelings has definitely helped overcome this fear.

On another tack, the eternal quest you sent me on for, 'Space is the Place,' and 'What have you done.' has ended up with two blind alleys so far. And it looks like you gotta go to Marrakesh to get vinyl Rai.

Anth, who used to scratch his albums in the 60s.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:08:27 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Rai etc
Message:
Anth, thanks for the search, really appreciated.

Hope you had a good un on your birthday, what a relief to have a birthday without all that baggage.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:17:36 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: OT to AJW re Rai
Message:
You mentioned Rai...I've been playing a cut from the recent Cheb Mami CD over and over today. Fantastic!

And...Space is the Place...are you talking about Sun Ra? I used to be a big fan of his and saw him play lotsa times in the seventies and eighties.

Gregg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:03:52 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: Gregg
Subject: Re Rai
Message:
Hey greg, I'd love a tape of the rai, but the really special rai I'm after has hip-hop beats behind it, but is an absolutely superb fusion, not tacky at all.
No the Space is the Place is by the Irrestible Force, it's a trippy house track from around 93, What Have You Done To ME is a breakbeat house track from 92.
You're a lucky bugger to have seen Sun Ra, never saw him ever.
My free jazz days are rare now, breakbeat house stuff has completely done it for me for ages now, ie Leftfield, detroit ghetto tech, uk garage but especially drum&bass, fucking love d&b.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 15:22:25 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Rai's Up
Message:
Hi Gregg,

I'm a Rai fan, but Hamzen, a DJ, sent me on a mission to find Rai on vinyl when I lived in Paris. He also sent me after the other two songs- yup it's Sun Ra.

Talk to Ham' about this stuff. He's nuts about it.

Anth Rai's and shining.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:48:14 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Mine too by and large......
Message:
.....although there's an element of favourite soap opera compulsion in my own reasons for being here .

I admire the people who have kept up the battle on this & previous forums against the propagandists of this lowlife rip off merchant , & those who have taken the time to try & work out what the hell it was /is all about.

I look at LG now & then but the thought of trying to engage in dialog with someone like Bjorn just depresses me.

Good for you that you are prepared to do it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:42:00 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: My/Your reasons for being here
Message:
I have also come to review my many reasons for being here and reclaiming my free will. You covered many of the same reasons and issues nicely in your post Hamzen regarding the conflict of separating what good I got from knowledge as opposed to the truth regarding the dysfunctional process that goes with it.

I do not hate m either, nor I am not fueled by anger towards him. I mainly just do not repect him anymore and cannot accept the way he chooses to do business as a purveyor of truth when he himself falls so short of it by his example. He lives his life on a do as I say basis not do as I do.

I feel that at one point in time he felt as if he was the savior incarnate, that he held the only keys to the experience of Knowledge and so did I. Only now I know better and I think that he does too, I am willing to openly tell the whole truth about that and he does not appear to be able to. He could openly state upfront, that there are many ways and many masters, many paths, and that he is just one method, one way, not the only way.

I know he has a lot to lose in doing so but it is not as if I did not have a big investment in this thing either. I bought into the cult in a big way and I put my life, my money and emotions into the practice and the cult wholeheartedly. It was/is not easy to rake over 29 years of beliefs and examine them with out predjudice and honestly admit that things are not quite right. And then do something about it, take true action according to my own heart based on factual knowledge and leave the cult and m behind.

For me that did not mean leaving the meditation techniques entirely, it just meant that I had a broader picture of what they were and accordingly who m was. These are age old techniques, they are useful and they are revealed by many and m is just one of the many sources not the exclusive source. It doesn't bother me that he is not the only one, what disapoints me is that he does not tell you that. He allows you to believe that he is the sole owner or proprieter of these methods and he continues to further his cause on this premise.

That to me does not represent a master of truth, there is no truth or mastery there, this is more akin to a less than reputable salesmen leaving out the facts and not fully dicloseing important facts that may affect ones decision.

The interesting phenomena is that I have and still do experience the knowlegde by itself as a positive. Why? because that part of it is still true for me. What is different is that I can now consciously and collectively verbalize my newfound truths about who maharaji is in the matter and deal with that as well.

The reason that I can separate these two seemingly conjoined things today is because I know the truth about each of them so much better.

Factual knowlegde, emotional knowledge, spiritual knowledge you can have them all and not need a master or a guru to run herd over them.

There is the big difference, and that is why I choose to be an ex-premie today.

I have graduated my need for dependancy, I am my own master

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:09:25 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sating the obvious well and patiently
Message:
I could not have said it better. Like you I do not hate Rev Rawat but occassionally I will find myself feeling very indignant that, all the while I was taking him very seriously, he was playing games with my mind, my feelings and my money and time.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:44:52 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Everyone read Hamzen and here's more!
Message:
I couldn't have said it all better either. It's a complete summary of all the reasons why many of us still come here.

I have a wonderful life, great marriage, fulfilling, creative career etc. etc. (I sound like my old friend Erika!). MJ doesn't figure in my life either. If people weren't still trickling out with horror stories I would never bother coming here. I remember talking many years ago to a good friend who had been MJ's accountant at one time. It was a few years after both of us left, and he wasn't even interested in talking about the whole thing, which he called 'about as significant as a flea on an elephant's ass.' He wasn't suppressing anything, he was just enjoying life so much now (cackle). I remember that even then, about ten years ago, I felt that this description of the flea and the ass just about summed up my feelings about MJ too. I had already found much more profound and integrated experiences of connection to my source, and lots of other interesting stuff. Who cared about MJ.

Then I came across a little newsgroup where Jim and I and a few other exes were talking about the whole thing. This was years ago. Premies came and argued and I realized that there were people STILL BELIEVING THAT STUFF! And it became a minor hobby of mine to hang around a bit on the edges, and contribute my 2 cents to the conversation and give my support to people trying to exit. For all the reasons that Hamzen so clearly laid out.

I don't hate Rawat either. I can't even imagine him at all as a real person, actually, because the person I was relating to was a massive projection (invited by him and accepted by me). Pat C. sent me a pic of him recently (haven't seen him for at least 15 years) and I stared at it, trying to figure out who that was. Didn't recognize him at all. It's just about the behavioral pattern that whoever he is is manifesting, that has the potential to ensnare and wound people - sincere, innocent people. I actually believe - know, in fact - on a sort of 'meta-level' that there are no victims. On that level I take rsponsibility for my own creations, too. And simultaneously I find that there are multiple levels of reality, with different structures of responsibility, and they all need to be addressed. This stuff is hard to talk about, but perhaps this will make sense to someone. It is important to BOTH hold Rawat responsible for his sociopathic behavior, including protecting and even rescuing people from it, if possible, AND be aware of the parts in ourselves and others that have attracted and colluded in the whole drama. If you only do one side of this - i.e. say we are all responsible for our choices - then you deny the human reality of the experience that many of us have had. For example, many of us have experienced sincerely trusting someone who was seemingly emanating vibes of sincerity. When we woke up, we experienced betrayal. Maybe there's a lesson about discernment in there. But there is also a lesson about assertion, being able to say NO, that's NOT okay.

On the other hand, if we only assert, yell, blame etc. then we are caught in MJ's loop and quite vulnerable to being dubbed a bunch of blamey whiners. For me the path meanders between these levels. I take responsibility for what I brought in to MJ's world which made me supremely fresh meat for him, and the beliefs and tendencies which kept me there when I was suffering. I also hold MJ responsible for the way he has used his power that has hurt people. I actually believe he will have to face this at some point in his own spiritual path (or whatever you want to call it). I'm not calling him to accountability so much on these deep levels because I think the Golden Rule will take care of all that. I'm not his teacher any more than he's mine. I mean hold him responsible on more of a practical level, like full disclosure and honesty now, for example (of all the stuff mentioned in Hamzen's posts, for example).

Keep up the good stuff, Hamzen and all.

love Disculta

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:36:16 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Rawat as a real person
Message:
Good post Disculta :trying to understand Rawat was the thing that brought me to EPO in the 1st place . As a residual premie (last year)the possibility of finding out more about the man in whom I had invested so much of my life was irresistible , even though I was prepared for a lot of it to be 'hate filled bullshit'.

To my surprise & increasing horror I couldn't dismiss the damning personal accounts of people who had known him personally & who had been much more closely involved in the cult than I had been .

Now I think I do know 'who he is' & it ain't pretty .

He was a child groomed for stardom by his mother & doted on by Jagdeo & Sampuranand , criminals both , spoiled rotten & taken up by a bunch of acid/brain dead westerners (us) who encouraged him in his delusions & corruption . Or at least some of us did. Lots of others of us didn't have a clue but just believed his spiel because we didn't know anything about yoga & 'something happens' when you do the teks.

What is he now ? An entertainer who won't do a show if the money is no good .

If he had the balls to say 'I'm packing it in now ,thanks for the ride , fuck you all it's only LILA ', then I might have a sneaking sympathy for the guy. On reflection though , maybe not.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 00:25:00 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Great summary , Pat D
Message:
You just said everything that I wanted to say with a lot less words. I am cleaning out the cobwebs in my head and you handed me the right broom to do the job on them with that dose of clarity.

Thanks again Pat D.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:56:24 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Pat D, GREAT post [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:38:38 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Rawat as a real person
Message:
hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That sums it up very nicely I would say.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:47:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: David Andersen on 'catalyst'
Message:
Here's a repost of Andersen's satsang on 'Catalyst' from his cult apologist site, PleaseConsiderThis.com. The format is exactly what I left behind twenty years ago. A little folksy premable to show what a relatable and regular guy he is, turn on the fog machine:

Catalyst

It's a funny word. Cat-a-lyst.
Say it ten times out loud and it gets real funny.

Sorry, Dave, but it isn't and it doesn't. I can just see you sitting in front of a group of people and trying to force a little humour like this. How embarrassing! Mind you, we all did it. It's just that you CONTINUE to do it. Oh well....

Events, people, objects, thoughts: they are all catalysts, acting on humans to produce feelings. Everyone I know has a short list of what I call 'reliable catalysts to feel joy'. These are things that we produce, place ourselves in the 'line of,' or make happen. We know they will fairly reliably result in an internal experience of joy.

Oh my god, better get out the lab coats and clipboards. This is getting really interesting -- not! Really, how banal. And what's with this 'internal experience of joy'? Is that different than, say REGULAR joy? Anyway, you have to laugh at the premie (in other words, Maharaji-clone) way of trying to sound like you've got a real handle on something by making these broad -- ultimately useless, sweeping -- surveys of the human condition.

Some of my favorites:

The discrete personal-disclosure-and-braggadoccio section:

A steaming cup of world-class coffee, properly brewed.

read: I'm a man of quality. Now what I like and how to enjoy it. A new age yuppie indeed!

Playing music with gifted artists who listen and are generous, in front of a receptive audience.

read: I, too, am a gifted artist. If you play with me, be cool, eh? If you listen to me, be cool too. Thanks.

The Lakers, playing at their best.

read: I am not Jack Nicholson but I'm a bit LIKE Jack Nicholson. I'm cool, for one thing.

A bunch of men who know and love each other, joking around for an hour or so.

I'm no sissy. I might fawn over my fat runt of a guru but I am, in the end, a man's man, so much so that I can talk about how much love I have for my posse. These ah' ma' peepow.

Watching my children do something they passionately love.

read: Quality kids for a quality dad. That passionate love thing? Yeah, that's right. Who you think they got it from? Their mother??

The graceful curvature of women.

read: I am, after all, a man. Let's not forget that, huh?

Certain Impressionist paintings.

read: I'm not an egghead or anything, just a man of quality. Know what I mean?

A good cigar at the right time.

read: A Clinton supporter

'The Simpsons' TV show.

faultless

Tuning and preparing a fabulous piano.

I surround myself with quality. I'm an arbitrer of quality. Plus, I can play. Not bad, eh?

Writing a good song.

If I don't say so myself.

Big Sur.

Boring. .....

Babies who, looking deep into my eyes, laugh.

Oh my God! I just remembered some of the weird things premies believe about babies. How they're where we need to get back to and all that shit ..... Talk about Third Rock from the Sun

Parties with really good, bedrock, long-time friends.

Yes, and I have SOOOOOO many of those because, what'd I tell you? I'm a Quality Guy!

Laughing so hard, for so long, my stomach hurts.

WITH a great sense of humour, buy the way. Can you imagine this guy writing a personal ad?

There is one thing, however, which is more powerful, more reliable, and much simpler than my 'reliable catalysts' one thing that is the greatest gift I've ever been given.

This is the part where the smile drops, the schmaltzy music begins and Andersen turns to face a closer camera. How many of these satsangs did we endure? How many times did we do this weird dance ourselves?
It offers me true independence makes it so that I don't need to depend on lining stuff up on the outside to feel what I want to feel.
Yeah, Dave, you gotta stop lining up all those little babies and fabulous pianos, dude. It's Independence time!
Because the joy exists inside of me. The coffee, music, baby, or landscape don't beam the joy into me they catalyze a feeling that's already there, hidden. Waiting.

Ooooooh, this is getting too scientific for me!

The gift that Maharaji gave me, techniques to access what he calls Knowledge, are that greatest gift. When I practice the techniques in a sincere and committed way, they allow me to access the feeling I've longed for and worked hard to catalyze ever since I was born. Without having to depend on my 'reliable catalysts' for joy, I can experience their beauty with so much fun, so much gratitude. They become more precious to me because I know they could change at any time, and I know that if they do change, I can still be naturally and deeply connected to the source of joy inside.

So let me see, how about a REALLY good cigar? How about a REALLY nice set of curves? Are you saying that all you gotta do is hook up to that joy INSIDE -- not the other one -- and these things are gonna be even better? Alright!

For 28 years Maharaji has been relentless in reminding me that I have the potential to be my own man, to see my own beauty, to act and choose from the most honest, best-feeling place. He is, for me, the greatest catalyst; he has effected greater change and growth in me than any other person. He has treated me with unusual care and respect. He has demonstrated his love and concern for me in a practical way many, many times. I have made a tremendous number of mistakes in dealing with him and his work; he has never given me any reason to think he has taken it personally, or that his respect and concern for me has diminished. I believe he knows that I love him and am sincere, and he accepts that. This consistency of love, respect, and acceptance is unique in my life.

Quit throwing up that cotton candy, Dave. It's gross..... No, really, what's this got to do with anything? I came here especially to learn all about 'catalysts'. What happened? Started out great. You got right into the word, catalyst. This was really promising. But then all you did was flop into all that 'Maharaji blah blah blah .... gratitude' shit. I want to learn about catalysts!

His gift, Knowledge, is also unique in my life because it is a direct pipeline to the feeling, the experience, that I use my 'reliable catalysts' to produce. This, to me, is freedom, or the possibility of it. To enjoy and look forward to the pleasures of life without having to count on them for my joy is liberating and a source of immense comfort, because one thing has been made clear to me in 52 years of life on this planet: everything changes, and it behooves me to find the source of joy inside me.

Well you did use the word 'behoove' so I take back what I said about you being a bit stupid. No dummy's ever gonna use a word like that. Sheesh, I don't know WHAT to think now. Hm ... I guess your sincere message of love really moved me or something. Hey, like a cataylst. Like a real-live catalyst in my own life. I get it!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:24:36 (EDT)
From: bill-fer allahs sake,
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: what 'beauty of the techniques'?
Message:
None of these guys will admit that they dont see a thing inside.
They dont hear a thing worth a squat.
They definately dont taste anything,
and I feel the breath more than him and it does no such shit he claims.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:58:33 (EDT)
From: Susannah
Email: None
To: bill-fer allahs sake,
Subject: Re: what 'beauty of the techniques'?
Message:
You said it! I can tell you one thing, I see the 'light' every time I step into the shower. I also see it after coming inside on a sunny day. Have no clue about the celestial music. Man, if that is angelic music (sound of blood rushing through the temporal arteries), heaven will be pretty boring! And the nectar? Never anything tastier than post-nasal drip.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:24:48 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Like some bad 50's ad
Message:
Are there any premies out there with really good taste, going for it, who are past that cool 70's newage/rock&roll posing?
I would love to have that concept blown but I doubt it.

Some mates dragged me out sat night after a very heavy month, not just the wtc, haven't felt like socializing, all words seemed pointless.
So it's a chill-out, and I'm quite happy just soaking it up, then the drum & bass hit the decks.
What a release, SOOO needed.
So I'm thinking would there be any ex-premies who could even get warm to the truth of this stuff, the only music I know that can take you through the centre of real anger/pain & passion, and come through the other side somewhere really expressive and not be denying all the bollocks of this world, ie the whole, dark AND light.
All I could come up with was Selene, you, Jethro, Heidi the cunt, and Robyn.
And yeah why pick on ex-premies, well I suppose I've found the wordy male abstractions of the last month here difficult, at a time as a lurker when I was hoping for more. But then I thought, what about premies, and laughed out loud, a rip roaring one, and really let rip on the dance floor with a passion.
Can you imagine a premie into drum&bass, what a joke. Ten minutes and they'd be calling it hate music, twenty and they'd be out of the building. Trance maybe, goa trance hippyshit, the odd one (like catweasel) who thinks he's cool, chill-out, a few more, but drum&bass, forget it.
Remembered me 15 years ago, when my tick list was almost identical to David Andersons, old before my time, yessirree.

And then the last thought in this mental thread was that, it might be too much for most exes, but some of 'em could ride with it a bit a least, Jerry, Gerry, even ~Scott came to mind, etc etc, you get my drift.

So much social wisdom that's around now, missed because they think everyones still stuck in the 70's like they are.

Sorry for the ramble but looks like I'm going into blogger mode at the mo.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:01:51 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Dear Ham -- drum & bass (OT)
Message:
Hamzen,

Don't listen to a lot of it, but it is great to dance to. A friend of mine is a musician, and went from ambient to jungle and drum & bass a few years ago. He got a kick out of watching me get lost in the groove several years ago before his own band played. I'm his mother's age, you understand, in a tied dyed shirt and overalls. So who do you like in that vein?

I know for the oldies (dinosaur music) you mentioned Nick Drake -- now he is one of my faves, as well as Richard Thompson. Also love Tim Buckley. For a while my husband and I were only listening to 'dead guys' (not RT, obviously).

--F

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:37:55 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Great music taste Francesca
Message:
Definitely add your name to the list then.

Back in the day loved Fairport Convention, wasn't so keen on Thompsons solo stuff, Tim Buckley I still play occasionally, have always felt him in the skin.
But my mostest were Soft Machine, the Greatful Dead, Quicksilver, & Country Joe, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young and late 60's Miles Davis
throw in some Steve Miller and Hendrix too.

Keith Jarret, Pat Metheny and free jazz through my premie years, LOVED Albert Mangelsdorff and a lot of the european free jazz set, Archie Shepp, Albert Ayler, late Coltrane, but especially Ornette Coleman, and at the opposite end, Jimmy Giuffre and Paul Bley.

But the last ten years, well how many hours you got.
I've been into drum&bass since it was hardcore in '93, loved as in LOVED, LTJ Bukem & Goldie & Photek 94-96, I still think that was some of the deepest music ever made, nowadays more into the Optical/Ram label (they're just a couple of miles from me) tech step dark stuff, says more about the times if you know what I mean....

There's also some really interesting garage/drum&bass fusion going on over here inspired by djzinc and the true playaz crowd, serious booty big arse wobble music, but quite fluid too

On a slower tip, LOVE Leftfield, Circulation label house stuff, slower breakbeats fucked up stuff, and a bit of garage.

David Gray is the first non house/beatz related stuff coming out that's given me any real pleasure for years, a bit of Radiohead, a couple of the tracks on the David Gray album sound like Nick Drake tracks gently remixed, very moving.

You fancy doing some tape swaps, if you do my e-mails here for ya

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:22 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: David Andersen on 'catalyst'
Message:
'''For 28 years Maharaji has been relentless in reminding me that I have the potential to be my own man, to see my own beauty, to act and choose from the most honest, best-feeling place. He is, for me, the greatest catalyst; he has effected greater change and growth in me than any other person. He has treated me with unusual care and respect. He has demonstrated his love and concern for me in a practical way many, many times. I have made a tremendous number of mistakes in dealing with him and his work; he has never given me any reason to think he has taken it personally, or that his respect and concern for me has diminished. I believe he knows that I love him and am sincere, and he accepts that. This consistency of love, respect, and acceptance is unique in my life.'''

I am so sick of hearing premies say that Maharaji truly loves them, or that the only one who truly loves them is Maharaji. Grow up, people. The only one, and I mean ONLY one rawat loves is himself. Grasp that reality, look honestly at your lives and at last start living them. Stop hanging about waiting for rawat to tell you that you can breath. Hey, guess what? You could breathe long before he came along and you will be able to breathe long after he goes. He doesn't care as long as he is comfy and has people fawning over him. That is it, folks. That is as real as he gets. Too bad there's not more to it than that, but there isn't.

Think about 'giving darshan'. Is that the action of someone who truly loves you? Do they ask, or even let, you get on your knees to them to kiss their feet? No, of course not. That is not what love is. Love is an equal thing. Darshan is abject adoration, and as such, more than a little sick. There is no love or respect involved in having people pranam to you and kiss your feet. It's an ego trip for the recipient of the action, nothing else. Maybe a pseudo-high for the devotee if he or she is completetely under the power and control of the cult leader, but there is nothing real there. It is impossible because it is an utterly unequal relationship. I would beg all premies to try and regain their own lives, and again, charge rawat with soul murder and get him away from innocent people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:03:39 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: **BESt OF FORUM** [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:54 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: YES! Thanks Timmi. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:20:43 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: did goober massage dave with oil? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:04:36 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc
Message:
Dear All,

it has been several months now since Rawat met my father. Since then Elan Vital flew me to Brisbane for a really awful meeting with Dr Valerio Pascotto before Amaroo began. (I wasn't allowed to go because I 'don't love Him'). Dr Pascotto admitted to being involved in an investigation into Jagdeo along with Marcia Lietner. Apparently a report was made and submitted to Rawat. He had no answers for why nothing was ever done.

I was eventually contacted my a Texan lawyer called Frank Sommerville who claimed that he had been hired by Elan Vital to pursuade me to sign a 'release' document on the grounds that it would help me heal. We had a number of conversations of which I have extensive notes.

At one point Ford Greene tried to talk to them. He was involved in a very nasty hit and run two days after he spoke to Sommerville and was in intensive care for over a week.

After Ford was out of the picture, Frank Sommerville offered me a very short amount of therapy on the condition that I remain silent about the cult and that they are given the power to terminate the therapy whenever they want to. That was the full extent of their offer. Several weeks therapy.

My therapist is so disgusted by the way that they are treating me that he refuses to bill me.

My friends, my therapist and my doctor, and those members of my family who have not been manipulated by the cult, are disgusted by Elan Vital. I really feel that I have been re-abused.

Since Elan Vital and Rawat approached my father I have developed a chronic lung disease and my eye sight, already fragile, has become worse. The stress they have put me through has been horrific and I will not forget it. Not will I forgive them.

So what can I ever do about this? I can write. I will write a new page for the Jagdeo section of epo. I will provide details and names of the people who have been involved in this. I will go outside the internet and write about it elsewhere. I have someone who can help me with this.

Maybe it took me so long to realise what they were doing to me because part of me was so loyal to my father and perhaps because part of me still hoped that those premies and that Guru were pure, real, caring, honest, loving. I suppose there was some residual belief in me, a hope perhaps that Guru Maharaj Ji really did mean what he said to my father when he met him. So it took me a while, and at great cost, to recognise that my father was being manipulated and that so was I, and that the organisation that was doing this and the man behind it are heartless. Now it is all horribly clear. And I feel polluted for ever letting them seduce me into being silent about what they were doing. They used my father against me so effectively. Dr Pascotto knows his stuff.

This cult sickens me. I feel as though I've finally woken up from months of a very nasty nightmare.

Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 13:25:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Being Re-abused
Message:
Hi Abi,

Last week I quit the forum in a fit of temper and you came to support me and I made a vow to myself that I would always support you and Susan and all the other victims of Jagdeo. So, like it or not folks, I'm back. I promise not to bring up the taboo subject :) I got nailed for last week.

What you wrote in your post above is part of your healing process. I know you've been holding onto this information for quite a while. It's a difficult time physically and emotionally. Good for your therapist for not charging you! There are some really good ones out there and he surely ''gets it.''

So now you know how it works. The ''it'' I refer to is the issue of child sexual abuse, and the good therapists who will donate their time for someone who needs help--mine did that too, during a skinny money time. It gives me renewed faith in humans.

Gina noted below that a parent would generally do most anything to support a child, whether an adult or still a child. That's not really true necessarily. Even in today's world, with all that we know about this subject, when it hits home, many times denial sets in big time--like with your father.

You father is in a cult which adds a double-whammy to your situation. Not only did you lose your innocence through the abuse and have to suffer the consequences of being abused within a cult, but the cult leaders have taken him from you. That's horrible, and that adds another item to your list of issues to deal with.

I don't know what else to say, except that warm thoughts are with you. I wish you were closer so I could meet you and see you face to face.

You are very strong, Abi. Very, very strong. Hold onto that. Please take care of all aspects of your health. Whatever happens to Maharaji, Elan Vital, Pascotto, and all the other players in this act of deception will, simply happen.

Keep writing. It's one way to get through the pain and distress and feeling of being overwhelmed.

It's about time you started feeling well, don't you think? You deserve it so much. Whatever makes you feel happy, do more of that. I know how hard the ''process'' is. Keep TELLING! Telling the truth is the best medicine, too.

That's all for now,
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:59:07 (EDT)
From: EiYDh
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc
Message:
Maharaji has deserted you, just as he will desert everything and everyone, when the shit hits the fan. What a chickenshit coward he is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:14:39 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: Abi
Subject: What a bunch of scumbags & lowlifes they are
Message:
They really are starting to show themselves to be despicable.

I found your story heartbreaking, I'm really glad you are getting some support.

Your therapist sounds like a gem.

Definitely you've got to put yourself first, which you are obviously starting to do.

Again, another e-mail address if you need someone to contact.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 01:00:34 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Darkness Masquerading as Light
Message:
Frank Sommerville is a tax lawyer who represents churches in IRS audits and disputes. What does he know about signing releases in order to heal. What an egregious insult to Abi, and what a sorry excuse he must be as a lawyer and a human being. Sommerville et al. give scumbags a bad name.

Abi, I can only imagine how stressful this is to you. I am very sorry that the likes of sub-humans such as the EV minions, Valerio Pascotto, and Frank Sommerville dare to approach you with offers of 'healing.' I didn't think my respect for them could sink any lower, but it has. Talk about darkness masquerading as light.

Take care.
B

PS: Valerio Pascotto already has had a complaint filed against him as a therapist so, if you decide to file a complaint, it will be taken seriously, since he already has a mark against him with the State Board. He is an accomplice in a cover-up of child abuse, something the State Board will not look kindly upon.
[ Frank Sommerville ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:15:49 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc
Message:
When I wrote to EV Sommerville ended up writing me back too. He said they did not need my help in DUO's lawsuit against Jagdeo in Australia. I didn't have the energy to respond....what to say to someone the cult has hired to protect it and what to say so a person who betrayed Abi's trust with that ugly thing they called a press release.

Sommerville does make for an interesting websearch though...it seems he specializes in protecting religous organizations from lawsuits by the victims of pedophiles who use the religion to find their victims.

Abi, I am behind you. Stay strong.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:01:46 (EDT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Sommerville - Glasserly - Leitner - Jacobs
Message:
Does anyone know if Frank Summerville is in as deep as the following Elan Vital Church Associates:

Charles Glasserly
Marcia Leitner
Robert Jacobs

Thanks,
Gina

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:02:18 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc
Message:
Abi,

Thanks so much for sharing that. Sommerville sounds like a piece of work. Please take care of yourself and I hope you feel better. You can at least be assured that you know the truth now, about what these people are up to. Free of those illusions, you'll be much better able to defend yourself.

And it isn't your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. You are the one who was the victim and for you to be blamed and treated that way is criminal. Valerio Pascotto using your father to protect his cult leader is also reprehensible.

I think you are right that exposing all this; making it as public as possible, is the very best thing you can do to protect yourself and others. Thanks again,

Joe

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:19:52 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Love and support from me tooo Abi (NT)
Message:
t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:10:52 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc
Message:
Hi Abi,

I remember the first correspondance I had with Glen, after your dad had told me about Jagdeo's abuse. The suggestion was that Jadgeo, was so pure and holy, he could never do such a thing. Maybe he'd been telling some children a story, and his hand had rested on a child's knee and been misinterpreted.

Around this time, a friend, also a longtime committed premie, went for drink with me and confronted me about my 'allegations' which were 'unfounded' and without substance.

I ended up yelling at him, 'What if it had been your daughter who had been abused?'

Every stage, and at every point of crisis, in this sorry matter the cult have behaved in a cowardly, evasive, uncaring and pathetic way. They have only changed their position under the utmost pressure. And when they have done this, it has been to protect themselves and Captain Rawat.

The first 'official' letter I received from Glen pointed out that if I suggested Rawat knew in any way what was going on, then they would consult their lawyers.

One of my concerns is how many other victims there are out there Abi. The cult seem to have done nothing to contact them, or their parents to begin to sort out the mess Jagdeo has caused. I've heard about other possible cases of abuse since I became involved. (You know about these.)

I think the way they have dealt with Jagdeo has done more damage to Rawat and his cult than any other incident. It shows them up for what they really are- mindless, toe kissing, heartless, dolts.

I'll email you Abi.

Anth the infidel.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: take care of yourself
Message:
lung ailment - oy vey. In that case, hope you live in a house with an air filter/vac built into the heating system, and are close enough to the ocean to visit regularly and breathe in the air.

whenever possible, slow, deep abdominal breathing exercises are good, too.

Peace and lentils,

PS my eyesight has been deteriorating, too, which is disconcerting and awkward for me sometimes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:14:28 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Dear Abi
Message:
Yes, dear Abi, take care of yourself.

It is frustrating to see you going through this, on the other side of the world. It sounds as though you are in the middle of two powerful forces, one of which is saying that you should let go of this for your health and wellbeing (and which is being echoed outside by the pernicious cult assholes); and the other voice is saying fight it for your health and wellbeing. And maybe you feel you are falling in the middle, not quite achieving the peace and wellbeing that might come from going all the way in either direction.

I wonder if you can therefore find a way to do both, and be at peace about the limitations. On the one hand, take steps that feel right to bring this whole thing to a place of justice. Allot a certain amount of time and energy to doing this, and no more. On the other hand, when you are not doing that, totally let go and rest and heal yourself. And ne'er the twain shall meet, so to speak. I have had to do a similar 'both/and' process in my own life, and I am also dealing with chronic illness.

Hope this is not invasive advice. Meant with all love and support,

love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:06:18 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Yeah such me too
Message:
My eyes have been the pitts for several years and getting worse as I age.

Best wishes to you,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:41:15 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc
Message:
Abi, I send you my love, support and deepest respect for what you have been through and what you are still having to go through. If I can ever help or listen, please feel free to e-mail me. Timmi
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:54:43 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I am so sorry to heard about this
Message:
Dear Abi,

And I am so sorry to hear about Ford Greene, and that EV took advantage of such a tragic accident. Is Ford OK? Is he still able to help you?

I am so glad that you feel as if you have woken up. That is such a good thing to feel, although, of course, the ruins you see around you are not pretty. As ugly as it can be, I always feel it is better to live with my eyes open -- although I've been told to shut up more than once in my life!

Love and best wishes,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:36:34 (EDT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked.
Message:
Abi,

As I read your post I was shocked but not surprised. Valerio Pascotto is breaking all the rules of his profession and I strongly suggest you report him as he definitely needs to have his counseling license revoked. He is manipulating you and your family out of .... who knows? Greed for Maharaji.... Maybe he and Marolyn got a thing going at Pepperdine..... really who knows? You should also keep in mind that his brother Alvaro Pascotto is in charge of the Rawat children's company. Please be careful. These are devious and deceptive men. And please consider my advice to report Valerio Pascotto to the appropriate licensing boards.

As far as the attorneys, I don't know what can be done. Seek legal counsel.

Finally Abi, when a parent has a child that was raped and that parent knows the Organization/Church ergo Pastor Rawat and wife Marolyn nee Johnson Rawat.... who have turned a blind eye ... the natural reaction of a 'normal' (unbrainwashed parent) IS a tremendous drive to tear apart the perpetrator and his sponsors in this case:

Mahatma Jagdeo

Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Marolyn nee Johnson Rawa
Premlata Rawat
Hansi Rawat
Amar Rawat
Dayalata Rawat

I don't know your father but something is very, very wrong here. It might be time to cut off communication with him as he obviously does not care too much about the harm done to you .... or the danger he placed you in as a child and now as an adult.

Take care.
Gina

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:10:55 (EDT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: What license does Valerio Pascotto have? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:26:02 (EDT)
From: The Fencepost
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Valerio Pascotto's licenses
Message:
nt


---

Marriage and Family Therapist license with the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a Psychology License with the California Board of Psychology. Both are current.

http://www.bbs.ca.gov for the Board of Behavioral Sciences.

Gina has posted the psychology board's URL below.

==The Fencepost

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:59:10 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked.
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:30:03 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To:

Subject: Where's Abi's Post?
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:37:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To:

Subject: ABI -- YOUR POST DISAPPEARED
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 21:57:24 (EDT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Where's Abi's Post?
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:33:48 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To:

Subject: Have a good think, gerry
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:58:06 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To:

Subject: Thanks for that Joey
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:35:50 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To:

Subject: I thank YOU, gerry
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:23:57 (EDT)
From: jOHNt
Email: None
To:

Subject: wHAt the F**%&
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 16:39:49 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: here's the F**%&
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 04:56:03 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To:

Subject: racists
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 10:33:29 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: racists
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 15:46:26 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To:

Subject: prejudice
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:38:58 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: wHAt the F**%&
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:05:41 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To:

Subject: To Salam and JohnT
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 17:11:36 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: To Gerry
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 18:08:16 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To:

Subject: back to Joey
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:28:39 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To:

Subject: back to Gerry
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:53:01 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: To Salam and JohnT
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 12:11:24 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To:

Subject: what happened to Abi's post?
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 12:17:40 (EDT)
From:  
Email: None
To:

Subject: yep it did it again
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 12:14:12 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To:

Subject: Try it yerself
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 13:25:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: cyber wormhole
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 14:54:50 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: SC complained about this also
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 21:38:41 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To:

Subject: indexing is corrupted
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 00:17:14 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To:

Subject: Thanks Selene!
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:29:41 (EDT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked.
Message:
Abi,

It seems that Valerio Pascotto is influencing your father for the protection of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

Following is the Web Address of the California Board of Psychologists.

I feel strongly that you have a valid complaint against Valerio Pascotto.

Hang in there.

Gina

http://www.psychboard.ca.gov/enforce/complaints.html

Filing a Complaint with the Board of Psychology

This document:

explains how to file a complaint against a psychologist, psychological assistant, or registered psychologist,
describes the review and investigation process, and
lists the types of actions the Board may take in response to a complaint.
Who May File a Complaint?

Anyone who thinks that a psychologist, psychological assistant or registered psychologist has acted illegally, irresponsibly, or unprofessionally may file a complaint with the Board of Psychology. In this document the person who files a complaint is referred to as the 'complainant,' and the person against whom the complaint is filed is the 'licensee/registrant.'

Note: Everyone has the right to file a complaint without fear of harassment. If you feel you are being harassed by the licensee/registrant you've complained about, you should notify the Board immediately.

What Types of Complaints Does the Board Handle?

Complaints under the Psychology Board's jurisdiction include the following behavior by a psychologist, psychological assistant or registered psychologist:

sexual contact with a patient
violating the patient's confidentiality
providing services for which the individual has not been trained or licensed
drug abuse
fraud or other crimes
false advertising
paying or accepting payment for patient referral
unprofessional, unethical, or negligent acts
focusing therapy on the licensee's/registrant's own problems, rather than the patient's
serving in multiple roles, i.e., having social relationships with patients, lending them money, employing them, etc

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:09 (EDT)
From: PS to Abi
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked.
Message:
Abi,

In light of the harrassment/intimidation you are receiving from Valerio Pascotto, Marcia Leitner, and the Texas Attorney I'd carefully note the following sentence from above:

Note: Everyone has the right to file a complaint without fear of harassment. If you feel you are being harassed by the licensee/registrant you've complained about, you should notify the Board immediately.

Also, who is Marcia Leitner and I'll find out the proper authorities to file a complaint with concerning her role in this intimidation of you.

Gina

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:28:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: PS to Abi
Subject: Marcia Leitner is a lawyer
Message:
She lives in the SF bay Area.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:34:41 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PS to Abi
Message:
Abi, it's time to put an end to this, time to get tough and start calling the shots. I don't know how to help since you are so far away. All I know is that, if I were you, I would surround myself with ONLY good allies who encourage you to fight and stand up and not be victimised. You do not need any weasels manipulating you right now. I wish I could send you some moral support and give you some fighting Irish spirit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:39:12 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: PS to Abi
Message:
I agree with Pat, and am here to help you however I can, Abi. Just let me know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:28:01 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: PS to Abi
Message:
Likewise, Abi, - if there's any way I can be of help ... writing letters, whatever ... please - let me know.

Just remember - there's a lot of us out here who don't want to see you suffer any more.

Be strong when you feel strong. And when you don't - let others help. Yes?

Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:17:55 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked.
Message:
Abi I'm so sorry. It's always a harsh wake up call to find out those you trust are not there for you. Especially family.
In this case you have it right on, it's cult manipulation.
I too am still surprised when I hear about the premies not being what they were in my eyes years ago. Even as cynical as I have gotten about M and premies, it still surprises me, so I can understand somewhat.

I'm sorry about your health , about all of this. But it's good to hear from you and see you are taking steps to help yourself.
Lots of love to you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:52:17 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: All
Subject: reply to bill
Message:
very good posts, bill ! many 'jews' don't realize that zionism is
in fact diametrically opposed to judahism since the very core of that
religion is the belief that ONLY the messiah can reunite the israeli
tribes..zionism is manmade...and the results can clearly be seen....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:08:40 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Ugh!
Message:
Zionism is secular. No doubt about it. We should be glad that it is. Would you prefer a Israeli goverment that was the jewish version of the Taliban? I certainly wouldn't.

Those articles just sounded like anti-israeli propaganda to me. Yes, there is a tiny ultra orthodox community that supports the destruction of Israel because of their messianic interpretations. Should Israel be destroyed because of this? Does this make Israel not jewish? Come on guys! This viewpoint is not even held by the majority of orthodox jews, just a few isolated fundamentalist fruitcakes. You seriously think they're right?

I wish this forum would go back to discussing M intead of anti-semitic/anti Israeli propaganda junk. Yep, it's just junk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:44:01 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy'
Message:
I guess we exes don't have to bother much anymore about Rawatists' retaliations anymore ...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:03:08 (EDT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: to jm kahn
Message:
just found out that sir david's account on bravenet was deleted.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:56:41 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy'
Message:
time you update the links here

http://www.multimania.com/jmkahn/

or do you have a double?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:08:29 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:
It occurred to me that with the recent current events, and MJ's patently pathetic response to them, there might be more fence-sitters lurking around here than usual, and not much in the way of ex-sang for them to dig their teeth into.

I was a premie for a long time, a long time ago. I know that when I was a premie, I did my best to avoid awareness of any other remotely inspiring teachers or teachings who were out there because it went against the 'one perfect master' theory. But things are very different now. There is so much more information and there is the internet. And if you are a current or wavering premie, you probably have heard lots and lots of quite inspiring stuff spoken by all kinds of different people since the 911 disaster. I know if I were a premie now, I would have a hard time finding any relevance to my master at this time, with his generic prayer and no really helpful offering at a time when someone with a teacher might want to turn to their teacher for help.

I realize, from the few premies I still know, that for most people, MJ occupies more of a sentimental place than a really awe-inspired place in your hearts these days. It's hard to completely let go and move on, so it's easier to relegate him to a fairly insignificant place in your life - a bit like church on Sunday, something we used to laugh at in the passionate, early days of his arrival in the west.

If you have relegated him to a symbolic, distant father-figure place in your life, you may not see much reason to go all the way and remove him completely. Many of you have added other more up-to-date influences to your repertoire (viz. David Andersen's amazing use of Byron Katie's teachings to lecture exes below) but you still want to keep MJ there. Why? Is it because it is one place in your lives where you have memories of feeling special, or where you hold out the hope of being unconditionally loved, of going all the way. Is it the place that reassures you that you are on some kind of a 'path,' so that you feel that the 'growth' part of your life is handled? Are you afraid of facing some kind of breakdown or emptiness if you really turn around and surgically extract the huge web of beliefs and - let's face it - subtle fears, that MJ has woven in your being?

Yes, I know, I know, you are having 'that experience' that we can't understand, or have forgotten. Well, I still mediate, in a different way, on the flow of my breath, and I can only say that my experience has become much more pleasurable and my feeling of connection to a kind of universal energy has increased since I decided to become an ex-premie, rather than an occasional or lingering premie. It's a bit like that friend of yours who is in a relationship that really needs to end, but he keeps sleeping with the ex-wife because he doesn't want to face up to his loneliness. The thing is, he isn't attracting any new relationships, either. In terms of the experience of leaving a 'master' or whatever he calls himself these days ('you can't come home without the master!' he said that!) I have found that it is better to make a clean break. Then you can really start a new relationship. With your self. With your direct connection to your source through YOUR breath, if that's your choice (remember, despite the absurd rhetoric, it's YOUR breath, and he didn't show it to you, and millions of people worldwide meditate on their breath). And if meditating on your breath isn't your thing, fine. You maybe just enjoy the feeling of 'love' you get at programs. Now this is really like sleeping with an inappropriate ex, because along with that 'feeling' you are being subtly and not-so-subtly programmed by pretty much every word he says. 'You can't come home without the master' indeed! Do you realize what spiritual fascism this is? What blinders MJ is wearing to the vast number of people who are doing fantastically well - better than most premies probably - without 'the master?' And there are dozens of other masters saying the same thing, with very similar followers buying the same line. Do you really think that MJ is the only, or even the most exalted one? Because if he isn't the only one, he is a fake, because in all his words for 20-some years he has implied that he is the only living master right now. If all the others are complete fakes, this is fine. But if they aren't, he would be working WITH them, because they would be meeting at their exalted level and would know each other, wouldn't they?

It feels so great to be free of the whole thing. Yes, I know you are deeply trained and programmed by the recent spin-doctoring to believe that we are all just stuck in the past with our objections to MJ, and that things have changed. Have they gotten better? Is there more joy than ever at those meetings you go to? Or is it going downhill?

There are so, so many exes who don't post here because MJ doesn't have any relevance at all in their lives. I have to say that this goes for me too, but I enjoy some of this ex-premie internet activity because I have directly seen it helping many, many premies who are trying to leave, especially in the past year. On this forum and another one called Recent Exes (which is password-protected, we have seen a great exodus of people leaving after up ro 30 years in recent months. People who were just keeping MJ on the shelf as their cute little guru rather than face leaving have been brought to the point of seeing the point of actively leaving. I and others have had a lot of correspondence with them, and have watched them becoming freer and freer and happier and happier as they cast off the incredible burden of cult programming which, only months earlier, they swore they didn't have. They are so grateful for life now. They feel as though they have retrieved a part of themselves.

If you are a premie, and think it would be safer to just keep MJ going in the background rather than confront your own belief system and perhaps leave, I just want to say that you have no idea how much of your energy is really caught up in that little part that has frozen and refuses to feel your gut doubts. When you go through the process of thinking about leaving, and get into a good dialogue with some people that have left (and you can do this in many ways, not just on this forum, which can be a bit intense at times) you will recover so much energy and free attention that many other things in your life will start working better.

Love Disculta

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:27:28 (EDT)
From: Toneete
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Beautiful post
Message:
I'm going to print this out and send it to my premie friend if that's allright with you Disculta.

Findly, Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 20:03:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: One thing puzzles me
Message:
Many of you have added other more up-to-date influences to your repertoire (viz. David Andersen's amazing use of Byron Katie's teachings to lecture exes below) but you still want to keep MJ there.

What's 'amazing' about Andersen's use of BK's teachings? He seems to be getting her right, quoting her verbatim even. The amazing thing, I'd say, are her teachings themselves. Pure, spiritual mind-fuck crackpot. No?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:44:49 (EDT)
From: The Post
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:
'Because if he isn't the only one, he is a fake, because in all his words for 20-some years he has implied that he is the only living master right now. If all the others are complete fakes, this is fine. But if they aren't, he would be working WITH them, because they would be meeting at their exalted level and would know each other, wouldn't they'

I am an ex-follower but what a load of conceptual crap! So much of what you are saying suggests a person who is still very much in denial about their own inner confusion regarding m. Your objections regarding m's 'generic prayer' is silly. M has already offered his followers a method of going within and transcending difficult times - whether he 'owns' this, or whether there are other paths is immaterial. You 'follow your breath', one of m's techniques is discovering the feeling of the energy behind the breath. So what?

Your reasoning is hardly convincing argument for people taking down their sentimental association with m. The revelations regarding his m's imperfect advice to early followers in the west, his abusive personality, dependence on alcohol, profligate lifestyle, etc., have much more resonance with me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:37:57 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks Disculta, saved it! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:58:58 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: sleeping with one's ex
Message:
That was a great analogy. Although many of us have never slept with an ex-spouse, most of us have had relationships we knew were not good for us, relationships we knew were bound for the rocks, yet we kept the thing together because it was easier than confronting the truth about ourselves and our realationships.

It must be hard indeed to leave after thirty years! I was only in for a few years. The sense of relief and freedom was definitely strong, though. (I smoked cigarettes for a year or two; it wasn't too hard to quit. My wife has smoked for decades; quitting is almost impossible for her.)

Anyway, nice post, Disculta. The spiritual potential that opens up after liberation from the cult is boundless; thanks for reminding premies and exes of the post-M possibilities.

Love,
Gregg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:29:11 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Hello to you Gregg!
Message:
Dear Gregg,

Haven't seen you post much lately. Glad you're still around -- like to hear your voice!

Bests,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:03:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Yes, PatC,** BEST OF FORUM*****
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:51:08 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:
You are absolutely right, Disculta. I have had premies tell me, though, 'I could not survive without Maharaji.' The tragedy is that they believe this. And this is my major problem with rawat. These people were not born thinking they had to have maharaji to exist. He made them beieve that, because of his own greed and need for power and control. And it for those reasons that I would charge Prem Pal Rawat with the murder of thousands of souls and free spirits. He continues to keep these spirits prisoner for his own selfish needs, while attempting to destroy yet more innocent people willing to listen just a bit too long to a deranged being. He is a disgrace to all true teachers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:48:42 (EDT)
From: karen
Email: curteij@southcom.com.au
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:
So well put. After 25+ years as a premie, a lot of the time a fringe dweller, but still with the sentimental attachment you speak of, I have been reading these posts and have quietly shed the shock and the embarrassment of realizing it was a cult all along! It is so like, as you say, staying in an inappropriate relationship for all the wrong reasons. It is a strange process but familiar! And I know that the empowerment that comes from refusing to be deluded anymore will be worth way more to my life than hanging on to something that is so obviously whacky.
Such insightful, inspiring good posts here. I wonder how many like me read and benefit without contibuting...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 03:31:27 (EDT)
From: Vera
Email: None
To: karen
Subject: do we know each other?
Message:
Karen,

Did you have a boyfriend with the initials JP back in the 1980s?

V

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:05:47 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: karen
Subject: Welcome, karen
Message:
Dear Karen,

Disculta's post is the kind that has been missing here lately. So glad to see we're back on track, and welcome!

Best wishes,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Yes, welcome Karen
Message:
We're glad you're here. There are a lot of us here, more than those posting. The 9/11 disaster has needed a lot of attention, but there are many of us exes floating around who have a wealth of experience to share about the strange trip we were in, and the strange process of extracting oneself from it.

Pull up a chair and have a cup of tea.

love Disculta

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Yes, welcome Karen
Message:
I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, Karen.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:27:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** in ages
Message:
Absolutely on the nose, Disculta!

I was just thinking of how many thousands of fringe premies, occassional premies and former premies there are in SF and Marin. SF once had the largest proportion of any city in the west. Many still have a pic of M when he was a bouncing chubby teenager with a mala and tilak on their altars next to Buddha or Yoganand or Ramana Maharshi or even Ganesha.

If they're happy - fine. I'm here if they have lingering oppression in their lives because of any superstitions attached to M and K. I know I sure had a few to get over. It's not easy to be a former apostle of the former living messiah.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: ***BEST OF FORUM***
Message:
very timely. good for guru picture cobweb busting.
congrats
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 23:20:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT)
Message:
This post has nothing to do with politics, or war, or religion. It's purely 'inspirational.' Sam Whittingham, a Canadian, was the first human to exceed a land speed of 80 mph in a human powered vehicle on level ground with no wind or draft assist.
[ World Human Powered Speed Challenge ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:05:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT)
Message:
But which kind of bicycle helmet is the most aerodynamic? ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:07:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Helmet Controversy
Message:
Pat C:

Time trialers use those long tear drop things, but they don't reach speeds even a fraction of the Whittingham bike, which is a completely enclosed 'monocoque' airfoil. Whittingham's 'Varna' is not a 'laminar flow' vehicle however, so chances are Matt Weaver will go faster in the near future in some version of his 'Virtual Edge.' These are not the bikes grandma used to ride. My guess is that since they're completely enclosed (and Weaver's doesn't even have a window) that they don't wear a helmet. I might be wrong, however.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 21:27:53 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To da American Infidels
Message:
Please take care. I really feel and understand what you are going through at these times. The next few weeks are uncertain and no one can tell what will happen.

I don't care what a belief system a person carry, but when it comes to bringing pain and destruction am against it.

Be safe and again take care, god bless

Salam




Copyright 1997 Paradise Web Enahancements


All Rights Reserved

Return to Index -:- Top of Index