Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 07, 2001 To: Oct 14, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Timmi -:- darshan lines -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:13:24 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: darshan lines -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:35:10 (EDT)
__ __ Elaine -:- OT-Joe W -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:27:31 (EDT)
__ __ Mr. dooley -:- Re: darshan lines...and as it evolved -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:00:30 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Poll: Did you always have doubts about M -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:01:32 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Always OTT. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:01:34 (EDT)
__ Tonette -:- Yes, part of me knew it was false -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:01:21 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:03:43 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- oh peg you just reminded me -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:04:22 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- No, you weren't stupid. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:45:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Patsy: 'Jaba the Hutguru? LOLOL! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:54:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Patsy: 'Jaba the Hutguru? LOLOL! -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:17:52 (EDT)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:13:06 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- You're a treat, Sue -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:51:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: You're a treat, Sue... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:17:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: You're a treat, Sue... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:53:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Ten foot pole, Cynthia -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:20:48 (EDT)
__ Zelda -:- I NEVER allowed doubt to enter -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:24:40 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Brilliant, Zelda! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:58:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Z -:- Re: Brilliant Zeldas silly premie smirk -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:22:44 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Good one, Zelda -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:04:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- 'jim.. jim.. jim.' ;) [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:13:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Sad to say -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:11:14 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:04:53 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Yes (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:41:34 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Me, too... but -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:58:20 (EDT)
__ Mr Dooley -:- Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:30:46 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Very true, Mr. Dooley -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:08:35 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- nope he never did it for me -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:24:45 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Yup, he did it for me -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:33:54 (EDT)

Marc -:- Spiritual Exhaustion -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:15:23 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- Marc...Wonderful Hearfelt Post..thank you..(nt) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:56:54 (EDT)
__ bill burke -:- This place can really help [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:47:50 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: Spiritual Exhaustion -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:58:34 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: Spiritual Exhaustion -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:58:31 (EDT)
__ berni -:- Re: Spiritual Exhaustion -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:10:31 (EDT)
__ michael donner -:- Re: Spiritual Exhaustion -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:00:17 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- Re: Spiritual Exhaustion -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:43:32 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Welcome, Marc -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:30:13 (EDT)

Ben Lurking -:- Whois 'Sanjay Dewan' -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:28:59 (EDT)
__ cq -:- that site keeps crashing my 'puter(nt) -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 14:03:20 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Whois 'Sanjay Dewan' -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:43:58 (EDT)

Ticked -:- Valerio Pascotto and Tim Galway and Others -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:22:50 (EDT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto and Tim Galway and Others -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:52:52 (EDT)

berni -:- Forum censorship? or just a mistake -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 04:43:46 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Forum censorship? or just a mistake -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 05:09:35 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- So somebody read it at least -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 06:32:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I've just reposted it. -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 08:57:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: I've just reposted it. -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:16:55 (EDT)

LG back on again? -:- Is it true? -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:34:14 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Is it true? -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:29:11 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Say something positive, John! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:47:23 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- What does CD mean? -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:50:25 (EDT)
__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: What does CD mean? -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 00:21:47 (EDT)
__ Loco -:- yes -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:45:20 (EDT)

LG back on again? -:- -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:33:26 (EDT)

Timmi -:- It occurs to me.......... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:57:18 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- The latter, Timmi -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:31:17 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- and........ -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:59:06 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The incredibly shrinking guru. -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:40:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: The incredibly shrinking guru. -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 10:27:17 (EDT)

salam -:- Love and Peace -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 20:54:28 (EDT)
__ Mummiji -:- You crabby ... !!!!! -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:31:01 (EDT)
__ __ [Blank] -:- ok then -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 00:07:48 (EDT)

Jim -:- ***COME ON OUT, PREMIES!!!!!!!!*** -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:00:04 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, do you think premies like what happened? -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:42:59 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- mao (ot) -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:03:44 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- well dog--do something about it! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 04:15:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- yea Dog! Go bark up EV's tree! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:46:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Exactly, Janet .... ANNNND .... -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:43:36 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- God, Dog, you're so obtuse! -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:56:59 (EDT)

Jim -:- Question for Joey -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:41:45 (EDT)

Chuck S. -:- Political discussion WELCOMED at A.G. -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:38:19 (EDT)

Abi -:- Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:31:47 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Abi -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:17:59 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- To: Dermot :) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:12:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: To: Cynthia :) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:56:59 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- there is a lot about Jagdeo in the link here too -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:07:10 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:29:08 (EDT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:04:03 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Abi, I'm glad you're back here -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:36:02 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: Fragmentation ... and integration -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:34:35 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- PS, Abi -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:41:54 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 13:01:43 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- you are so brave Abi -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:34:25 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Captain Rawat and the Pervert. -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:19:28 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:12:38 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 10:20:32 (EDT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 06:56:30 (EDT)
__ Tonette -:- Sickened, disgusted and deeply saddened -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:30:12 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 00:05:47 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:33:28 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 20:27:39 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:37:52 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- You are one courageous woman Abi -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 18:48:59 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: You are one courageous woman Abi -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:12:31 (EDT)
__ Disculta -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 18:39:40 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:41:58 (EDT)
__ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 18:28:38 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:45:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ A Friend -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 00:32:21 (EDT)
__ such -:- scary stuff;like Freddie Krueger - only real! -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:54:09 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- thanks Such -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:46:57 (EDT)
__ Helen -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:28:39 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:48:58 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Speechless -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:22:22 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Speechless -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:51:24 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:22:08 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:54:11 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Abi. I needed to hear that. -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:56:59 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- thanks Pat -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:57:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I wish I knew you. I know I'd like you. -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:37:19 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- ASOLUTELY BEST OF FORUM** although ... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:48:57 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- I am free! -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:14:29 (EDT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Re: ASOLUTELY BEST OF FORUM** although ... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:20:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: ASOLUTELY BEST OF FORUM** although ... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:17:08 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- Re: Fragmentation -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:59:04 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- hope you write them out -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:04:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Dear Abi -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:55:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- self pity as a trap -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:50:34 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Holy ................................. -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:50:17 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- yes, my dad... -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:01:51 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Abi you are wonderful -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:37:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- thanks berni -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:05:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- Well done Abi -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:48:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- thanks to you -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:06:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- How traumatic--still -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:53:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: How traumatic--still -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:09:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Re: How traumatic--still -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:55:55 (EDT)

Joe -:- Erika Andersen and M's Obscene Wealth -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 14:30:07 (EDT)
__ Hey Joe, -:- That's the way, uh-huh, u-huh, I like it (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:54:40 (EDT)
__ Lesley -:- He comes from a rich family -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:13:53 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- True, he came from a rich family, BUT -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:23:25 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Driven by envy -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:51:08 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Great post, excellent typo -:- Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 14:54:56 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:13:24 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: darshan lines
Message:
I have a question I need an answer to, please. It is about darshan lines. Are there really donation boxes at those? Is the expectation that everyone will put something in the boxes? Is there a 'presumption' that giving is part of darshan? Anybody help me on this? I'd be most grateful.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:35:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: darshan lines
Message:
I don't know how it's handled now. In fact, Maharaji and the premies don't like to even admit that darshan occurs anymore. It's a super embarrassment to them because they go around saying all the nasty 'Hindu Rituals' were eliminated by Maharaji years ago. Darshan, the most extreme and blatant Hindu ritual, the humiliating feet-kissing ceremony, is still occurring in full swing.

Anyhow, in the past, 'donations' were suggested at darshan. But I don't think anyone was ever told they had to contribute or anything like that. I think there is some kind of a tradition that the devotee gives some kind of an offering to Maharaji, and sometimes people gave flowers, or jewelry, or money or something like that.

Maharaji used to haul in tons of stuff. He had a whole couple of warehouses in Miami to store the stuff he had, some of which people gave him. One time I saw one of those warehouses and it freaked me out. One section was filled with watches and jewelry.

This was the 100% devotion period. We were supposed to give our everything to Maharaji, including our cash.

Anyhow, in the later 70s, word came out from Maharaji and the Initiators to stop giving him 'stuff' and start giving money only, because that's what he really 'needed.' I recall Initiators talking about that in the communities. People had the 'service' of handing out envelopes to people has they came through the line, and there were big barrels to collect the donations. This money did not go to Elan Vital. It went to Maharaji personally.

I know when I was at Elan Vital Headquarters in the late 70s and early 80s, that it was common for Maharaji to collect a quarter million dollars or more (in 70s money) when he gave darshan at a big program. One of the Coordinators from the Pacific, who is now an ex-premie, said the same was true there, and she would sometimes carry large quantities of cash from the darshan collection accross borders for Maharaji's personal use.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:27:31 (EDT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OT-Joe W
Message:
Joe,
I just received (last week) a mailing from Michael Clegg's organization.I'm sorry I don't have it in front of me -wow - he has the life now it seems! He is offering the BEST trip to somewhere in the tropics and is including all sorts of perks.
I can't remember it all but it was mega top of the line cool and inviting and classy.
I think Michael knew how to make money alright. I say - good for him.
Elaine

I haven't been here so excuse me if this Sadeem thing has already been brought up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:00:30 (EDT)
From: Mr. dooley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: darshan lines...and as it evolved
Message:
they began to hand out envelopes to those that showed up empty handed...just a subtle suggestion
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:01:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M
Message:
In a thread below about Charanand, magiclara said that she always had misgivings about M and would have preferred Char to be guru. I agreed with her but added that neither Char nor M have any juju left as that had all been in my imagination anyway.

Then I got an email from one of the quieter exes saying that he felt the same way. I've often wondered how mnay exes never really trusted or liked M. The thoroughly modern PWKs seem always to have adored His Holeyness.

PS I was thinking the other day about the lack of intelligence among the premies who post here and I concluded that it was this lack which led them to not notice or object to the revisionism.

They weren't concentrating on what LOTU said in the old days anymore than they are now. I guess they need a master because they have very short attention spans and are unable to sustain thinking for very long.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:01:34 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Always OTT.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I always believed. Life was a big game with God. Jump, and he catches you etc.

I don't think I ever really doubted. I just collagulated and quit.

I don't doubt the Captain nowadays either. I just think he talks a load of shite.

Anth the infidel.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:01:21 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes, part of me knew it was false
Message:
Yes, Maharaji, and his lttle spiritual trip, his lttle 'lila' with his holy family and all was bullshit from the start. What a trip it was. However, being so immersed as I was with some friends that I really loved, that I would say, was my downfalling, my brainwashing, my programming. The whole knowledge trip was shit then and it is totally shit now. Anyone who reads a third of what is written on EPO and can't come to terms with the con game that has been played on them is, in my mind, slightly unbalanced. Oh the exiting process can be painful for some but for me it was well, a breath of fresh air.

Good luck to all who read here.
Take it in.
And move on.

Love, Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:03:43 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M
Message:
When I was first given my picture of M by Charanand post 'knowledge' I was very doubtful and hid it in my I Ching. I went up to London with three mates after one satsang. This was done in a slapdash way after the Ching had said 'it furthers one to see the great man'

It wasn't long before the satsang kicked in and I was off to join the ashram. Yes I still had loads of doubts... but I had transferred them ALL to myself. M had become the golden one.

In the early 80's I started to use my brain a bit, pulled back to be on the fringes and allowed myself a few conscious doubts.

But it wasn't until reading EPO that I allowed my mind out of the closet....I don't think I was ever unintelligent but was I STUPID??!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:04:22 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: oh peg you just reminded me
Message:
after the late 90 program when I was ridged with NO but hadnt found this site and processed it all - I brought home a Amaroo automatic donation form and hid it in my I Ching!
I would go to peek at it once in a while and slam it shut and pace the room a few times and gasp and wring my jewelled- hands- with -bread dough .
I was not stupid, just soft frozen in suspended animation.
Zelda
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:45:43 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: No, you weren't stupid.
Message:
Thanks for that, Peg o my heart. Didn't the I Ching always tell you that ''it furthers one to see the great man?'' ;)

You were trying to think positively about your investments as any sensible person would. When I look back on it now I see that I was the driving force behind my whole involvement. I hyped it up. I had the faith. I did everything including creating wonderful experiences for myself.

Meanwhile Jaba the Hutguru was buying watches.

Give my love to DB next time you see him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:54:08 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Patsy: 'Jaba the Hutguru? LOLOL!
Message:
I needed that one, PatC., Thanks...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:17:52 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Patsy: 'Jaba the Hutguru? LOLOL!
Message:
I think I'm getting my sense of humor back since it disappeared on 9/11. ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:13:06 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M
Message:
I also fall into the 'wouldn't leave any room for doubt' category. I was always around premies who either had been close to M at some point or were slated to be close to M. I hung around with people who got lots of Darshan. I figured that the reason my experience didn't seem to compare with theirs -- (if I was having the same kind of experience they were, then I would get the darshan they got , or would get) was because I wasn't trying hard enough or wasn't pure enough of heart or just wasn't something enough. It couldn't be M -- it had to be me, just look at all the others around me, they were getting it, just not me.

It wasn't until I had moved out of the 'shram and met my soon to be husband who wasn't involved and didn't care to be that I took a closer look at some of the pwks I was spending time with and realized that most of them were wackos and any experience they were having wasn't worth my envy.

There I was hanging around with Sheldon Jaffe and actually having him look down on me due to his 'status' in the premie world, yet I grew up in the same neighborhood as he did and his only claim to fame back then was the magnitude of reputation as a 'geek.'

I walked away more from the whole scene than M -- really until I found this forum, I never gave much thought to being angry at M for the bill of goods I was sold. I wasn't even really involved in the whole 'we didn't say that, you just heard what you wanted to hear' scene. I thought about M sometimes and wondered what it would be like to see him again. I had dreams every now and then (even recently) of being places like at a program and knowing that M was close by and trying but never being able to get to see him.

I have been out for so long but am still haunted. This forum has been such therapy for me. I was drawn in by Michael Dettmers posts and then by the EPO site. I relived so much and processed so much more and have been able to come out from under that feeling of 'if I had only tried harder, K would have worked for me, too.' I am so appreciative of hearing it the way it really was (is.)

This is probably more than you wanted to know but I couldn't help myself.

Well, back to reality -- my kids are dripping wet and running naked around the house.

Best,
Susan

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:51:24 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: You're a treat, Sue
Message:
Believe me the ''geek'' lives a few miles from me and he would no longer look down his nose at you. He might try. He specializes in that but his obvious lack of social skills and any semblance of charm would make you take pity on him.

He's the one stuck in an infantile cult but you are free and happy and probably sleep a whole lot better.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:17:33 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: You're a treat, Sue...
Message:
Sheldon Jaffee? I used to bust his ass til the cows came home!

LOL~! Creeeepy~!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:53:47 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: You're a treat, Sue...
Message:
Drat,

I've revealed the true depths of my vulnerability!

M = LORD
SHELDON = NORMAL

No wonder my former belief system sent me into therapy!

Best,
Susan

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:20:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Ten foot pole, Cynthia
Message:
I don't think I want to ask you to explain what you meant by that. I almost prefer the cartoon that flashed into my mind....but what did you mean?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:24:40 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I NEVER allowed doubt to enter
Message:
about M. So any doubt that 'should have been' lay fallow.
It was not until I allowed myself to listen objectively that I also was able to acknowledge the huge DOUBT ZONE that had developed.

With the help of EPO- I slowly explored the doubt zone and was able to go fearlessly into the dark cobwebby corners of DENIAL that had been hidden for so long. This exploration brought LIGHT into my consciousness and Margy was exposed.

I realized that although I had been inspired by Marajis Saggitarian charm and optimism, I had been for the most part been engaged in SIMULATING the 'devotion ' that the premies exuded- because I was very committed to knowing GOD. I did not see that my attraction to Maraji was fused with my quest for knowing god personally.

When I was a premie I DID percieve that there was a gap or blank space between my attraction to Maraji and my utter committment to finding god within.
Now I see that a connection to peace or 'god within' has nothing to do with Maraji.
In fact, my obsessive 'attraction' to maraji (which I tried to label as devotion) hindered my emotional developement and hence my experience of a true peace within and without.

now that I have accepted that I allowed myself to be tricked I am more content than I have ever been.

One thing that helped me wake up was when I attended a program after many years away. The faces of the female premies was downright scary. The plastic SIMULATED calmness was like a freak show. The vibe coming from these women was FALSE.

I didnt know what to make of my gut reactions to that program until I found this site.

Z

A SNL skit could not have done it better.
And of course there was the pleasant goat eyes of the well dressed intiators... } : I

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:58:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Brilliant, Zelda!
Message:
I especially related to the bit about ''simulating the devotion.''

Recently I realized that most of the ''devotion'' that I felt was actually the other premies' devotion. I especially got sucked in when living in the Indian ashram in Durban. I swear on the Koran (or should that be Gita?) that I smelled nectar everytime one of the Bais' entered the room in their flowing pure white saris and fresh shiny tilaks.

Yep, I was just a second-hand premie who got high on the true devotees vibes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:22:44 (EDT)
From: Z
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Brilliant Zeldas silly premie smirk
Message:
Oh ya!! I thought it was nectar - but suspected they just knew how to bathe.

It was especially yucky when the premies from the west imitatied the Indian premies. Somehow the Indians seemed to be natural with the devotion thing. Us american premies developed our knowing smirk . that smirk was what alienated me from my family - cause I tried to sell it as bliss.

Not once did I walk into a room where a premie was alone and observe the smirky smile-- until they saw me and it would quickly flash onto thier face . Me too of course. funny how I though that was normal!

I thought the 90s premies would have quit the smirk .
but sure enough- at the late 90s program, the well heeled pams were too cool to smirk --but the Gap clad aged hippy minions just HAD to smirk when Marjorie anounced darshan.
The really funny thing was that the PAM acted so TOLERANT & the old hippys pantomimed the 70s swoon- but with a certain self consciouness cause there were new aspirants around.

The vibes in the auditorium were so bad it was farsical and every cell in me clanged NO. AND I WENT THERE OPEN!!

oi
Z

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:04:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Good one, Zelda
Message:
I'd drop the Sagittarian bit, though, but beside that, yeah, I hear ya'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:13:15 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'jim.. jim.. jim.' ;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:11:14 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Sad to say
Message:
I never had any doubts whatsoever. Whatever he said and did, I accepted it. But I was never closes enough to see the real stuff he did. I think that says more about my naiveness that anything else. Or stupidity.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:04:53 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M
Message:
Never having been a premie, only a 'close call', I may not be qualified to answer this poll. From the first, I had doubts. Too many inconsistencies. Too many 'easy' answers to what I thought were legitimate questions. Everybody seemed to look away when things didn't quite 'add up'. And anything rawat did was either marvelous or excused for some lame reason or other. Hope it's okay to respond as a ''never was a premie''!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:41:34 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes (nt)
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:58:20 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Me, too... but
Message:
Of course I alway had doubts. But Maharaji said that doubts were not allowed and were your mind. So what that cult is all about is ignoring and repressing doubts.

Premies who have been involved since the 70s are more afraid of doubts, especially about Maharaji himself, than almost anything else, because they were so indoctrinated about it for so long. It's so automatic that they don't even know they are having and repressing doubts.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:30:46 (EDT)
From: Mr Dooley
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Poll: Did you always have doubts about M
Message:
definetely had doubts when I saw him-everything was great when I wasn't and could create my fantasy about him
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:08:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr Dooley
Subject: Very true, Mr. Dooley
Message:
The real problem was Maharaji-in-the-flesh. I distinctly remember my mind asking me why the hell I was deferring to, let alone worshipping, this little punk, three years younger than me (back when that spread still meant something) when I was doing some service at the ashram he was staying at in Seattle, '74. Of course we all understood that as proof that the mind was ready to fight and scream all the harder in the presence of the Lord.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:24:45 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: nope he never did it for me
Message:
Ask Joe to repost his reactions to the dance and mala routine. He said it so well.
I was always a crappy hippie. I never could get into the extravaganza shows he put on in the 70s. And the gushing premies especially the women who swooned over his BODY!! and talked about wishing they could have sex with him.
And the darshan scared me, confused me and made me angry on a very primal level. I was aware of it even then and put it down to my mind freaking out, my ego not wanting to surrender. Now where did I get that idea I wonder ;)
What I was attracted to was the hope for an answer. To my personal struggles and also the chance for world peace, all that stuff. I wanted to believe this was it and so many premies had so much energy that it seemed like it really could happen. That and this premie guy. Same old story.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:33:54 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yup, he did it for me
Message:
Hi Selene,

I remember Joe's post.

I was a die-hard gopi convinced that total surrender to his lotus feet would bring me everlasting joy and happiness. I was one of those gushing 'sisters' who lusted after his ??? great bod??? that's a laugh now. Gawd. He disgusts me and I find it hard to even look at a picture of him now.

And it wasn't sexual, it was a desire he seeded, through his twisted system of indoctrination. I forgive myself. That's it. F**k him.

I don't forgive Maharaji. I am not Christian and feel no such obligation! I'm smiling today. It's been a long haul through a rocky field this past few weeks.

How are you, Selene? I hope you are doing well.

Late for me, time for bed...
Cynthai

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:15:23 (EDT)
From: Marc
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Spiritual Exhaustion
Message:
I never thought I would ever be doing this. I was a premie for almost 29 years, but I think I spent the past 20 years trying to convince myself it wasn't all a sham. But most of it is a sham.

It isn't all a sham. Knowledge of self can lead to a wonderful life, but it's limited, and I have come to the painful conclusion that Maharaji has nothing to do with any of it.

For me, he has become a huge obstacle. Maharaji and all that goes on around him are like a huge piece of fly paper. It's easy to get stuck on it and it's hard to get unstuck. I think I'm unstuck now, and I am glad for that.

This has been very painful for me, especially the past two years, when I couldn't deny the obvious. I loved Maharaji, and maybe I still do, but like I read someone else say here, so what? It isn't about friendship or love affair with a person.

I like Maharaji as a person, pretty much, the times I have been around him, but he is bad for me and it's time to move on. I just wish I had done it 20 years ago and hadn't wasted so much time, energy, treasure and love. Yes,love. It was a waste of my love. I should have been giving my attention and love to things that really mattered, like my wife, my kids, other people I care about, and not chasing the dream of having a master to guide me, to take away responsbility from me, to make me a child again. That never really happened, and I don't want to be a child anyway.

I'd like to thank all the people who make this website possible. It's really helped me get unstuck from the Maharaji world. As I work through all this, I will try to say more. Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:56:54 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Marc...Wonderful Hearfelt Post..thank you..(nt)
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:47:50 (EDT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: This place can really help [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:58:34 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Re: Spiritual Exhaustion
Message:
Thanks Marc, good to hear from you. Keep in touch
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:58:31 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Re: Spiritual Exhaustion
Message:
Thanks Marc, good to hear from you. Keep in touch
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:10:31 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Re: Spiritual Exhaustion
Message:
Well said, Marc,
Lot's of us have been there and come away intact.
re: your feelings towards M - maybe think of him as a loveable rogue.
The conman who believes his own con.
And I know just what you mean when you say and not chasing the dream of having a master to guide me, to take away responsbility from me, to make me a child again
Don't we all want that - I guess some of realise that M is not going to be the one to provide it - or maybe we have be our own masters?.
take care
berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 17:00:17 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Re: Spiritual Exhaustion
Message:
hi marc...i love your analogy with fly paper, so right on the target. and also the notion of it being 'time to move on'. never to late to move on.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:43:32 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Re: Spiritual Exhaustion
Message:
Thank you Marc. One of the first things that happened to me when I found this forum was the flood of guilt and remorse over all the money, attention and love I took away from my children and placed with Maharaji. It was paralyzing. I posted and posted about it for days, weeks. People were very kind, supportive.
Finally, after ages I've realized that it wasn't so bad. I'm my own worst critic. My adult children are fine, they love me. And they can count on me they turn to me and share their thougths and needs as they can't really count on their premie father for such things. He is more of a blend now. A couple gurus, a mismash of beliefs and rituals. Not much help in the nurturing adult department.

And they remember the good things, the friends the good people they met. It took ages for me to get to see this. I have learned that I am a very slow learner! I hope you continue to explore your mind, to find what is real and what is not really your thougths but the result of years of denying those thoughts. And IMO hating oneself was the result.

So would you say that the new window dressing they put on hasn't really changed the fundamental programming? It sounds like you would agree with me on this.
I would also admit that placing blame soley on M and the cult doesn't work for me. I've had to see that I am responsible now and have to do a lot of work on myself. But at least a major stumbling block has been removed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:30:13 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Marc
Subject: Welcome, Marc
Message:
A premie friend of mine just asked me if K was harder to do without M and I said: ''No, it's easier without all the BS (belief system) concepts he attached to it.''

I no longer feel spiritually exhausted after 28 years of struggling to make sense of His Silliness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:28:59 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Whois 'Sanjay Dewan'
Message:
I recieved a message wanting my comments on mr prem pal rawat form the above - I have no idea whe he got my email address as I very rarely us my real address, and I haven't used it in 3-5 months. Ideas or comments

Here is the url he sent me - I haven't been there yet as whois returns no such domain name.
Ben
[ Lineage of Mr Prepal Rawat ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 14:03:20 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To:

Subject: that site keeps crashing my 'puter(nt)
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:43:58 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Whois 'Sanjay Dewan'
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:22:50 (EDT)
From: Ticked
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Valerio Pascotto and Tim Galway and Others
Message:
Just read Abi's post below.

I think all should read her story including Valerio's and Tim's clients.

Dr. Valerio Pascotto is the founder of Effective Organizational Systems. Over the past fifteen years, he has helped many individuals and corporations to reach their potential and maximize their productivity. He has conducted seminars and developed programs for industry in the area of team building, leadership, and work effectiveness.

Clients include

the American Heart Association www.americanheart.org,
Arco www.arcogas.com,
the City of Pasadena www.ci.pasadena.ca.us,
the Daily News,
Ernst and Young www.ey.com,
Fedco,
First Interstate Bank www.firstinterstatebank.com,
Fleishman-Hillard www.fleishman.com,
Goldman Sachs www.gs.com,
Pepperdine University www.pepperdine.edu,
Southern California Edison www.sce.com,
Southern California Gas www.socalgas.com,
University of Southern California,
and the Watts Health Foundation , among others.

He has been a personal counselor to individuals in key management areas to improve their persuasiveness and communication effectiveness.

Valerio Pascotto obtained his Doctoral Degree in Psychology at Pepperdine University and holds a Psychology License, a Marriage, Family, and Child Counseling license and is certified as an independent Birkman consultant.

Finally, Valerio Pascotto and Tim Galway's Article 'The Inner Game of Work':

http://www.contextmag.com/setFrameRedirect.asp?src=/archives/200010/0ToC.asp

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 19:52:52 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Ticked
Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto and Tim Galway and Others
Message:
Yeah I work in somewhat the same arena but in Australia.

Most of those organisations quoted are huge. Well I worked for BHP - one of our largest organisations - but so have a billion others. And did I do a half day chat or a 3 year development program? I try and put as good a spin on it as I can. He's doing the same thing.

Then there's the psychology degree. It would require a lot of work but so what. What was the work he has done, what arena, what supervision was given and by whom. There a two types of doctorate psychology degrees in the US. One is the soft one and one is the one where science is also taught. Most of the psychology degrees taught there are the softer options which means that many psychologists are unable to distinguish real outcomes from seemingly good ideas. In Australia we don't have those soft type of Doctorates - otherwise I might aloso have been tempted. DR Howie - not the greatest ring to it but it would seriously enhance my consulting prospects, you bet.

My response.
Cheers

Peter Howie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 04:43:46 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: bernee@flashmail.com
To: All
Subject: Forum censorship? or just a mistake
Message:
Gerry,
This may be unjustified and if it is just my browser not showing what it should or something I apologise in advance but there seems to be some posts missing - particularly my last ones.
I know that my post was locked, although I don't think it was that off topic - after all it was about the conditioning of those under the influence of religious indoctrination - but it seems that it has been erased.
I can't believe there was anything offensive in it and if so please let me know why my efforts were so bad that they had to be deleted.
If it is possible to delete a post when someone has taken the time writing to share heartfelt views rather than trying to be objectionable or offensive, then it I wonder if it is worth the careful self-censorship needed to avoid mentioning off-topic subjects.
As far as I remember, my post was asking if it was not right that we should include discussion on the general harm that any religious/cult mentality has on people rather than just the effects of being a premie.
I know I threw in a few comments about the violent outcome from the recent atrocities carried out by the highjackers to illustrate the importance of using our experience as 'escapees' in assessing the situation, and I understand that your answer is 'No - we don't want such debates' but surely you could have just said that and left my post for others to read.
I guess I'm just mad because of the time it takes for an illiterate old ex to write these things.
It's one thing to be accused of talking rubbish another to have your writing, your opinion, your efforts to communicate... just erased. I don't think you even did that to some of the worst premie posts.
In the years that I have posted on various forums - it has never happened to me before.
So I will curb my posting activities as I find it impossible to stay within the strict limits that are required, but I would just like to know what it was about the post that deserved it being destroyed?
berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 05:09:35 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Forum censorship? or just a mistake
Message:
I hope you saved your post, berni, because it was a long one a good too. Repost it on the Adult X-rated Ex-premie Forum, Anything Goes Too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 06:32:34 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: So somebody read it at least
Message:
Thanks Pat,
Nice to know someone enjoyed it.
No I didn't save it, that's why I'm cheesed off - just typed it into the reply box. I know it wasn't Shakespeare but I don't think it was bad enough to be trashed.
cheers
berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 08:57:12 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: I've just reposted it.
Message:
Berni,

I happened to have it in an archive file so I reposted it on AG as a response to Scott's thread on the subject.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:16:55 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: I've just reposted it.
Message:
cheers John,
I've replied over there - at least now I can be judged on how OT it really was - maybe even get an explanation why it was kicked off this forum.
berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:34:14 (EDT)
From: LG back on again?
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is it true?
Message:
Is Life's Great back on again?

I just checked and it seemed to be back on again at 11:30pm EST Thursday....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:29:11 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: LG back on again?
Subject: Re: Is it true?
Message:
Chris has deleted all the recent threads between Bjorn and me and Hamzen. It really is a waste of time posting there.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:47:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Say something positive, John!
Message:
John,

Do something positive. Like CD.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:50:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: LG back on again?
Subject: What does CD mean?
Message:
Someone sends me LG posts from time to time. Some of them are these laughable things of CD's where he cajoles people to 'do something positive'. Now, besides the fact that he's stuck in the Maharaji cult, all I know about CD is that he has questionable taste in books and music, is a programmer and compulsively buys guitars. Has anyone ever asked him what he does that's so damn 'positive'? What? Give blood? Volunteer at hospitals? What?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 00:21:47 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What does CD mean?
Message:
Mili has a website. See if it will keep you busy. This is the url;

http://www.geocities.com/milivoi/Microcosm/

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:45:20 (EDT)
From: Loco
Email: None
To: LG back on again?
Subject: yes
Message:
2 pwk imprisoned by exes.

http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=8892.482268729711

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:33:26 (EDT)
From: LG back on again?
Email: None
To: All
Subject:
Message:
Is Life's Great back on again?

I just checked and it seemed to be back on again at 11:30pm EST Thursday....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:57:18 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: It occurs to me..........
Message:
that if anything near what happened to Abi happened in a corporation or with a political figure, all hell would break loose. Why is none of this heard in the media? Is rawat able to keep it all quiet, or is he so utterly insignificant to most of the world that nobody will even bother with what they might consider a 'small' story? It is not a small story. It is a horrific story of abuse and cover-up, and it should be in the papers all over the world. Somebody tell me how to start, please.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:31:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: The latter, Timmi
Message:
You said: ''....or is he so utterly insignificant to most of the world that nobody will even bother with what they might consider a 'small' story?''

That's it. He's not even big news in India where he purportedly has ten times as many followers as all the other countries put together. And, in the west, he's in the same category as Baba Free Toilet or the woman in Marin who channels Annie Besant on Saturdays for her 15 devotees.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:59:06 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Timmi
Subject: and........
Message:
here is my e-mail address, if anybody has any thoughts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:40:38 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: The incredibly shrinking guru.
Message:
Timmi:

[I'm making an exception to my general rule to not post on this forum, because I need to say something about Abi's post.]

What Pat C. says is true, and one of the reasons I feel the current imposed constraints on discussion on the forum are ill-advised. You narrow the focus to M and you're likely to completely lose sight of the 'scale' of his significance. One of the things that freed me from the cult was my experience investigating David Lane's site on Rhadasaomi. Of the myriad gurus in all the various lineages Maharaji was hardly mentioned! I think he appears in one or two sentences. The outrage! This incredibly important figure in mankind's evolution and he's hardly mentioned! But the fact is, he's not mentioned because he's not important. Paul Twitchel had more significance to the introduction of Rhadasaomi beliefs in the west than M, and he's pretty obviously just a small-time smarmy con man. Maharaji isn't even creative enough to come up with anything new. It's just the same old regurgitated Sant Mat stuff from anytime in the last 1.5 centuries.

The other part is of course the fact that it's not even Maha that committed the direct offense, which *might* be newsworthy were it not for the fact that child rape is all too common in cults. One might almost infer it, so there's little shock value. People have known this about Sai Baba for years, for instance, and he's probably far more important in the guru business than Maha. And so it's not even the insignificant guru himself that's the direct offender (and news audiences don't make sophisticated assessments about mere cover ups). It's just one of his minions, and we all know how hard it is to get good minions nowadays...

Which reminds me, who else was it that has the advantage of that sort of imagined insulation from the activities of his minions?

This is not to imply that the offense itself is insignificant, or that the exposure of it is anything less than heroic. There are many women, young and old, who've been abandoned to this lonely lifeboat... and there's rage as caustic and destructive as the result of any widespread injustice. (I hope 'wide' isn't on the list of 'disallowed terms.') More important that Abi is heard by those who know the circumstance, than by the public at large anyway.

--Scott 'in it for the long haul and larger scope' T.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 10:27:17 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: The incredibly shrinking guru.
Message:
Scott,

Rawat is a minor cult leader but his cult does demonstrate quite well the nature of the beast. Combat's focus on Elan Vital was instructive in this respect.

I am in contact with a cult buster in Melbourne and have spoken to him about the media. He found the whole story very interesting and said he would help me find a space in the media for it. I'l do that when I feel stronger physically. Apparently cults are constantly trying to sue him, or at least threatening to, and the media that he speaks in. He seemed very experienced. It would good speaking to someone who is so familiar with cults and was also so passionately dedicated to uncovering them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 20:54:28 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Love and Peace
Message:
Nahhh, this forum sucks and gerry is a moron.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:31:01 (EDT)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: You crabby ... !!!!!
Message:
You crabby middle-aged man!!! You KNOW that ONLY that Guru Marshmallow, or whatever his name is sucks. Apologize right this instant to Gerry, who is trying to keep this forum on topic for those less fortunate than yourself who are still in the cultmallow or trying to unstick themselves!!!

(May your Great Great Grandfather of the Infinite Turban forgive you ... and do I need to contact my friends Jean and Aline about the screw-your-head-on-right manoeuvre of the Canadarm again?!!!)

The NERVE of some peoples children!!!

Your long-suffering Mummiji

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 00:07:48 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Mummiji
Subject: ok then
Message:
he only sucks :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:00:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ***COME ON OUT, PREMIES!!!!!!!!***
Message:
Is there a single one of you able to comment on Abi's latest disclosures?

Read what she's written.

Read the truth about what Jagdeo did to her.

Read how Maharaji lied to her father.

Read how the cult dealt with her.

Remember how EV called her a dishonest golddigger.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:42:59 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, do you think premies like what happened?
Message:
Do you think the average premie is a monster or something?

And don't give me all that 'religion makes people that way' crap. Remember, MaoTse Tung, Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot were all born again atheists.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:03:44 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: mao (ot)
Message:
Hi Dog,

There's a brilliant biography of Mao, 'The Secret Life of Mao-Tse-Tung', written by his doctor, who was with him, and his entourage, most days from the 50s until when he died. It's a perfect companion to Wild Swans- a biography of 3 generations of Chinese women.

Anth the bookworm

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 04:15:12 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: well dog--do something about it!
Message:
if premies dont like it, if they dont approve, if they want abi treated better, if they are offended by how EV is doing this, then for god;s sake, TELL them so!! You guys ARE EV! It is nothing other than a bunch of you and people just like you, beancounting and doing recordkeeping and programs. they keep track of your memberships. there isnt any other organization you can be in, in order to be amember. that said, riot and storm their HQ and make them get it--that this isnt what all you premies want them doing in your name! that Is whose name they exist in, ya know. they speak for you. not MJ. MJ speaks for himself. He is the Speaker, after all. No premie would dare presume to speak for the master. but they DO supposedly speak for all of you. so tell them what youwant them to say to him, for you. thats what they say theyre there for. to convey what you all want, to MJ.
you have a membership with them--no other--so speak up! how they gonna know what you all want them to say, if you don't let em know?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:46:47 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: yea Dog! Go bark up EV's tree!
Message:
Dog, you don't have to turn Jim's quest around and defend every premie. That's not what was requested. Jim wants you to discuss how you feel about it and what, as a result of getting the whole story, are you willing to do about it?

Please don't turn such a senssitive issue into a pissing contest! Better to not answer the post at all. In this case, at least.

Be well,

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:43:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Exactly, Janet .... ANNNND ....
Message:
Dog,

I asked you to comment on some specific things: Maharaji lying about not knowing when he spoke with Abi's father, EV's dismissal of her as a gold-digging liar, etc. All you did was ask this rhetorical question as to whether or not premies like what happened to Abi. Hey, as far as I know, premies believe EV which is completely schizophrenic on this. On the one hand, supposedly suing, or trying to sue, Jagdeo (what a laugh that is!), on the other, calling her, in its press release, what amounts to a lying golddigger.

Don't hide, Dog. Comment fully. Be a man, for Christ's sake.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:56:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: God, Dog, you're so obtuse!
Message:
Do I think premies like what happened to Abi? What, are you nuts? Of course they didn't. That's not my question.

My question is all about Maharaji's and EV's cruel and callous lies and deception. Any premie with any integrity would have to leave Maharaji over this. Period.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:41:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Question for Joey
Message:
Joey,

I posted a question for you on AG.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:38:19 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Political discussion WELCOMED at A.G.
Message:
I just wanted to affirm that political threads are welcomed and encouraged on the Anything Goes Too! forum.

Some mention of war politics on F7 is unavoidable, but when long threads of aguments keep appearing here, they cause on-topic threads about the cult to scroll off much faster. I believe it's important to keep F7 mostly on-topic, for new exes and lurking readers who need the information and help only an ex-premie forum can provide.

The A.G. forum, on the other hand, hasn't been used a lot. I created it for off-topic discussions.

I don't join in a lot of the war discussions, but I do read many of them, and have really enjoyed a lot of the links people post to the many differnet sources of information.

I understand that we exes are a cyber community of sorts, and the war affects us all and many want to talk about it. That's fine, I just don't see why the majority of that discussion can't be kept on the off-topic forum for exes. It's just one click away.

Anyway, y'all are WELCOME to use the Anything Goes Too! forum for these long politics and war discussions.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:31:47 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Fragmentation
Message:
I've got a lung disease which came on a few weeks after I met with Dr Pascotto in April and I don't give a fuck anymore. This is what Jagdeo did to me. I don't want sympathy I just want it to be known.

I was about nine. '76. We had moved out of Wringford Manor because Unity School had very recently closed down. We were living in Cawsand, a nearby village by the sea. We'd go up to Wringford and have satsang a lot. I was totally into satsang and thought that Rawat was God. I dreampt about him all the time. My father would put on satasng tapes of 'Durga Ji' and 'Maharaji' at night so that we could benefit from it as we fell asleep.

Jagdeo arrived and everyone was very excited because he was such a high soul, such an important Mahatma. The whole community felt blessed. One day soon after he arrived he asked for the premies children to visit him in his room. Me and my two brothers Ivan and Josh, two girls and another boy all went into his room. We were escorted there by a woman with long hair. I have forgotten her name. He was dressed in the white robes that they wore then. He was very nice to us at first and showed us some Indian food he'd had brought up. It was on a low table. His room was at the top of the stairs to the left and overlooked the swimming pool and the lawn there. It was a very special room. A Mahatma room.

He said that he loved being with children so much because they were pure and that he missed his own children in India. We felt sorry for him. He asked us a few inane questions, what our names were, how old we were, if we wanted to get Knowledge. We all said yes of course. I was especially keen. I was the oldest. The youngest was about five years old. Then he told us that he wanted to play a special game with us all and we had to lie on the floor in a circle and he would stand in the middle. So we did. You don't argue with a Holy Man when you are a child in a cult.

Then he went from child to child and rubbed himself up against us. This became more frenetic. He told us that we weren't allowed to look at what he was doing. That we had to shut out eyes. When he got to me he had an erection. He squashed it onto me and I feel suffocated and scared. He was breathing quite heavily. The five year old girl was nearest the door. He really got stuck into her. Both my brother Ivan and I saw this. There was a struggle. As Ivan said years later, 'something very heavy went down in that room'. I asked him how he felt after it and he said he was much more withdrawn after that.

Jagdeo then got up and stood in the middle of the room again. This time, he told us, we had to ask him to squash us. That was the new game. Several of the others asked him to squash them but he ignored them and focused on me. He told me to ask loudly so I did. I felt very freaked out by this. He got down on me again and really started groping and rubbing himself. Then he got up and told the others to leave the room. I had to stay on the floor.

I will never forget the feelings I had when they all left. It was pure terror but I felt totally helpless.

After they left he told me to take off all my clothes because they were Mind. I said I was shy and he told me to do it again so I did. Then he made me lie down and he raped me. He put his hand over my mouth to stop me screaming. There was a photo of Rawat on the wall opposite me and at some point I just prayed so hard for protection that I left my body and went into the photo. I fragmented. I dissociated. I got out of my body and my mind splintered. Someone knocked on the door to see if everything was alright and he told her to go away. I wished she'd opened the door. I remember feeling as though I was being stuffed and suffocated and a horrible smell. But worst of all were his eyes. One of his eyes was much smaller than the other. He was like a real monster. I don't really remember much else, how I dressed or how I got home. I went into myself.

The next day he asked to see me again, I was really terrified. He said he was going to teach me how to play chess. He would be the white ones and I would be the black ones. Because I was Mind and he was at one with Maharaji. He told me that he would always win because he was on Maharaji's side. How true. I was scared of him. I asked to go to the toilet and I was shaking and sweating. My hands were sweating and I just kept of praying to Maharaji for protection. When I came back I saw some premies sitting on the lawn down below the window and I wanted to shout to them for help but I knew that they wouldn't understand what it was that I wanted to say. I hardly knew myself. I just wanted to get away. The same thing happend as before, just like it did after the others had left. I don't think I put up much of a struggle.

I told my brother and he tried to tell my Mum. It was in the parking lot outside the house. I'd whispered to him in the car that Jagdeo was creepy. I didn't know how to speak it. We thought that babies came from stalks. She didn't hear what he said because it was a difficult thing to hear about a Mahatma.

After that I started getting nightmares. They were so bad that I would punch the wall next to my bed in the night so hard that I would wake up with bleeding knuckles. I screamed so loudly that I would wake up with a sore throat. I had nightmares about a smooth long thing. I think I was sick for a while. I was full of terror and turned to 'Maharaji' for comfort.I developed an imaginary relationship with him. he could hear my every thought, see everything I did, he was the whole world, every leaf on every tree. He was a seagull flying above me. If anything nice ever happened to me it was By His Grace. If anything bad ever happened to me it was By His Grace. My parents eventually got a bit annoyed about the nightmares. They'd tell me to shut up. I'd wake them up. I screamed out night after night and for years later well into my 20s 'Stop it! Go away!'

My teachers at the primary school were decent people. They were concerned that we were all in a cult. We eat at a separate table, called the 'vegetarian table'. The headmaster Mr Bridge asked me questions about the cult. He gave me a lot of support and encouraged me to do well. We were all totally cult children, especially me. I was a fanatic. I'd tell kids at the school that my real father had lots of cars and planes. That he was very rich and was going to spread peace to the world. Most of them thought we were freaks. We moved to another village where most of the premies lived. I went to satsang as much as possible. I was always the one my parents took to festivals. I was a very pure devotee and all I wanted to do was get Knowledge and be an iniator. I got Knowledge when I was 13. I meditated for an hour before school, on the school bus, I organised satasng with the others premie kids at school, I had photso fo GMJ on my books, I meditated for an hour at night.

When Elan Vital flew me to Brisbane via a gold Amex card of Tim Galways I was told I couldn't go to the Event or see anyone except Dr Pascotto. They refused to return my phone calls. Rawat was of course just too busey.

When I got Knowledge my parents gave me a card with a picture of a monster on it. Inside they wrote 'Mr Mind won't get you now! This is your true Birthday!' I celebrated it as such. My bedroom was full of photos of GMJ and I had a large alter. I collected things from people in the village to do fundraising for GMJ. I made blacberry jam and other stuff so I could give M money. My mother made his children toys. I secretly wanted to marry Hansi even though he was a bit younger than me. It was as though they were the Royal family and we were the peasants, greateful if a mere old sock from his foot found itself into what GMJ once referred to in a 80s satang as the premies'rat holes'.

But I locked my room at night and I had nightmares and I hated my body with a passion and pretty soon I was bulimic. I've tried to kill myself several times. I've wrecked by body. I'm now chronically ill. The abuse doesn't stop when the abuser stops touching you. It lingers and infects you. You internalise it. My mind was warped by the heavy indocrination.

I'm going to tell you of what I know that he did to another girl in America. Someone who has never posted here and never will. I hope that she understands why I have done this and forgives me. Jagdeo made this lost 12 year old dance for him naked. He told her to take off her clothes because they were Mind. He took her into his bed.

He is sick and the cult that let this happen is sick.

For the last couple of years I have had dreams about being locked in a room I can't escsape. It's the room at Wringford. As I wrote all of this and spoke out and tried to deal with it I had these dreams. In the first one I was standing outside the door and another part of me was behind the door, shaking it, and pushing it and screaming to get out. Her anger scared me. I didn't want her to get out. In the next dream I was moving towards the door. Then I was right near it. I had a key in another dream. Then I had the key in the lock and I was turning it. The last dream I had was amazing. The door was gone ( or so I thought) and I was standing outside somewhere full of light. I tried to move forward but then I saw that there was a glass door in front of me blocking the way. How can I get through this door I asked and a voice said 'Do I really have to spell it out for you?' I said 'yes'. And an invisible finger traced the black letters of CONSCIENCE. For me that means speaking out and telling the truth. It is the only way of getting out of that room.

I hope all who are locked into the Maharaji cult escape too.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:17:59 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi
Message:
You don't deserve this shit.

Thanks for your posts and I hope you find the best way of exposing this whole sad, sordid affair to a larger audience so that Rawat and his apologists SQUIRM.The first essential of that 'best' way though is for it to be helpful and healing for YOU.

I remember Kissimee 1979....holding my daughter in my arms ...she was a few months old....I came across Rawat spontaneously and silently pledged to love and cherish her for the rest of my life and to do likewise with Rawat.I'm so glad I've left Rawat and SO GLAD I've always and will always love and cherish my daughter.

....I'm sorry but ...your father??????????????

Best Regards

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:12:37 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: To: Dermot :)
Message:
Hi Dermot,

How are you? Thanks for posting what you did above to Abi. Losing her father is but another piece of the horrid stuff Abi has to deal with in all this.

It warms and comforts my heart and restores my faith in humanity to hear all the fathers and mothers here crying out in disbelief and outrage at Abi's father's betrayal, and her stunning account of her childhood horror.

(I guess it didn't take either of us too long to come back here..I hope you stay and we can get to know eachother).

Be well,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:56:59 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: To: Cynthia :)
Message:
Hi Cynthia

Good to hear from you.

Yeah I agree .. I just can't understand how a father can ignore his daughters suffering to such an extent.

I never did like Jagdeo much even whe he was considered a 'saint' (ha)

I had a bit of an argument with him once in Leicester over a private issue that he butted his fucking concepts into.He was a bit put out that a mere bottom of the rung premie (ha)such as myself would dare to question his authority.

If I were Abi's father I'd be hunting the bastard down in India not kowtowing to Rawat and his cronies.

No, it didn't take us long to return here :) but it's just a fleeting visit on my part as I'm still busy. I'll return on a more regular basis soon though I guess.

...anyway catch ya later !

Best Regards

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:07:10 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: there is a lot about Jagdeo in the link here too
Message:
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=10770.42217810598
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:29:08 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Abi,

You told! You did it! You are free, Abi, FREE! That's so fucking great. Fragmentation was the perfect word for the title of your post. I understand completely. I also have addresses for websites which might interest you. I will email you. You are too much. You TOLD!

Your graphic description of your abuse is one of the most brutal, tortorous, and wounding that I have ever heard of, especially because it happened in that evil cult. And I know in my heart Maharaji knew and did nothing. This I don't doubt.

As for self-pity, it's okay to indulge a bit if you want. Who else can pity that little girl inside that was hurt so bad? Just don't go overboard. You know what I mean.

I'm beyond proud of you. You are way up on my list of brave humans. Congratulations. There's no one else in the world like you. You shook the universe in your post.

Love to you, (...and rest, please)
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:04:03 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Abi,

I found your post to be both thoughtful, reflective, passionate and real. I think from the depth of responses, that others have as well.

I get a sense that you have really had a shift in yourself. I get this from the really healthy tone of your post as well as the clear expression of the content. Healthy tone means to me that the ideas expressed are lucid and clear.

I also get a sense that you are not 'blaming' of MJ and by this I mean that you have simply worked out in a true manner that he is responsible for some fucking nasty crap. Blaming usually means not being self-aware. I get a strong sense of your own self-awareness and conclude that you have been working hard on your own psychic health for some time. Congratulations on this and I hope the physical illness becomes manageable for you as well.

I personally have been touched deeply by your post. I've been currently working with a Catholic school where a teacher suicided. I've been touched by their grief and their anger as well. Your real story here is a shcoking delight.

Thank you

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 18:36:02 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Hi Abi, I'm glad you're back here
Message:
I feel devastated having read your post. It bothers me when I think you're eyesight is getting worse and that you developed pneumonia from your visit to Maha's thugs. How can, NO! never mind, THEY won't get away with this one. You've done excellent homework.

Bottom line: Maharaji has CHOSEN to hire these thugs and INSTRUCT them to coherce you into shutting up? WHY?

PatC asserted that Maha is insignificantand therefore doesn't care. I don't entirely agree with that opinion. Okay, the BigHead is as far form being known as Christ to the Christians, the Messiah to the Jews, and Allah to the Muslims--but the FatOne is obviously worried about being the Cult Leader of this child-sexual abuse scandal. And YES, Maha has perpetrated the scandal. Let us not forget that he himself is GUILTY of sexual abuse himself. No non-cult member will see his sexual liasons as casual sex amongst consenting adults. Not-a-one.

Maha would not be going to such great lengths if it were not the case. I claim Maha is very very very very worried about this, indeed. I'd bet my last breath on it!

I can't believe the confusion, and physical/emotional agony that Jagdeo could inflict on children, not to mention the manipulation of child naviety he dared even dreaming yet fulfilling of committing on a child. This is very disturbing. Makes me very sad.

And your parents telling you shut up when you were having nightmares makes me upset as well. How could this cult have that kind of a stronghold on your parents maternal and paternal sensibilities?

And your father is still justifying it, at least on some level? THis fact alone would draw attention to the cult's clutches on the minds of the followers. Especially if your father is not estranged. It doesn't compute!

By the way, I was sad to see you go last time and now I am very glad to see you've come back. We are your family now, at least till your own parents get much better. And if they do ge tback to normal, we'll still be here. I'm glad you are having a breakthrough in regards to your famial blood being thicker than the cult blood. Sadly, it's apparently not true.

Optimistically, If the trauma has worsened your eyesight, than healing the cause can turn the fate around. Your recient dreams of your trauma seem to have been lucid, I'm hearing a new and increasingly convincing voice in your posts. I liked the part about seeing the CONSCIENCE spelled out for you. And I like your interpretation as well.

I knew it was UGLY when R-II arrived on the scene and when SC/Roupell maliciously taunted you. It kept me away from my school work, and kept up at night crying at times. I would occasionally talk to Jim on the phone and tell him I was devastated with those posts.

It was complete propaganda that you were accused of being a gold-digger by Maha's spin-team, in writing no-less, on the web. Not only did I never think that for a moment but I often wonder why you didn't/don't sue for multi-millions. Maha's corruption in this case is worthy of that price tag. Actually more! but how do you collect dignity, confidence, innocent idealism, hope, adolescence, family, friends, careers, and life memories which have also been lost?

As far as being sick due to releasing repressed ideas of the cult, I agree. I've been going through a real lot of personal trauma, social withdrawal, lack of trust and chronic personal sadness. I actually have to fight to stay grounded and healthy. I'm glad I'm at school, because it keeps my mind fresh and positively active but I feel that finding out you've been royally duped and accepting such is not easy.

And everyone here is at various levels of being OUT and what that means exactly and what that may or may not entail and thus it's even hard to be heard on this forum and forget about telling the world, they just look at you like you have leprosy.

Take care and rest your eyes and also rest assured that you will not go through any more of this without the support of people who care and support your plight.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:34:35 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation ... and integration
Message:
Abi, fragmentation has to be the right word for what you've been through.

You were brought up in a family that worshipped a concept of divinity they called the 'Perfect Master'. An incarnate, physical presence who they (and also us, as former premies) believed to be the Lord. The Second Coming. God in human form. (no matter how much he might now deny it, that is SURELY how he presented himself to the West when he first ensnared so many of us.)

And you have had to live with the fact that this so-called 'perfect master' allowed one of his mahatmas to abuse you since you were nine years old.

Fragmentation, you call it? No other word would suffice.

But, IMO, you've also taken a big step toward re-integration.

It surely must take a lot courage to experience what you've been through - perhaps even more to feel able to tell other people about it.
And one of the most positive consequences of exposing that so-called 'mahatma's' ('great soul's'?) crimes is that other premies and children of premies who have suffered as a consequence of his abuse might feel less inclined to keep silent and deny what happened to them in his presence.

Which brings us to the likes of Pascotto and Sommerville.

You say 'Sommerville's whole rationale for the silencing thing was on the grounds that it would help me heal'.

Silencing does not help a victim one iota. Quite the opposite. Who does Sommerville think he's fooling?

And as for Pascotto, Elan Vital's so-called 'psychologist' - evidently he sees child abuse as something to be hushed up. Why? Simply because it reflects badly on his so-called 'master'.

Before talking with him again, you might want to take a look at this Survivors of Therapists site.

Somebody should report his condoning of the attempt to 'gag' you on this matter to the relevant authorities.

BTW, here's a couple of sites that might be of interest to you:

http://incestabuse.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.utk.edu%2F%7Ebartley%2Fother%2Fvast.html

'the memories don't go away but the pain of them ceases with time'
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1124/geobook.html

Reporting suspected child abuse or neglect is one of the most important things you may ever do:

You may save a child's life

You must obey the law

You can break the cycle of abuse

Making a report is not 'snitching', blaming, accusing or judging. It is calling upon professionals with the training, authority and responsibility to investigate.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:41:54 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: PS, Abi
Message:
These two sites might be of help as well:

http://pssp.on.ca/posttrauma.html

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1124/geobook.html

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 13:01:43 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Thank you, Abi, for telling your story. You are very courageous. My involvement with the cult is embarrassing to me now and has caused severe mental illness, schizoaffective disorder. I had a difficult childhood as well. I take some pride in being a survivor and have faith that truth will win out. All the best to you and I hope you receive the necessary therapy and healing that you so deserve.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:34:25 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: you are so brave Abi
Message:
Thank you for telling the whole story...the whole horror. People just don't get how truly evil Jagdeo was because it is so very hard to tell the story. You are brave and I hope telling it brings you closer to peace.

You were a very little girl, a total innocent who was attacked in the most vile disgusting way, a way that can scar a person forever, by someone who you thought was a great soul, appointed by your Master, your Guru Maharaj Ji, your all to you, the superior power in person. It was a physical and spiritual rape, and I cannot imagine much worse that can happen to a child.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 11:19:28 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Captain Rawat and the Pervert.
Message:
Hi Abi,

I applaud your courage in speaking out against Jagdeo and the cult that protected him.

The way the cult and Captain Rawat have dealt with this matter has been despicable. They have done everything possible to prevent this story becoming public. They’ve lied, threatened, cajoled and used every kind of pressure they could. But they’ve failed miserably. And in the process they’ve shown themselves to be, not an organisation devoted to love and peace, but a mindless, heartless, sycophantic bunch of zombies.

Their only concern, from the moment the story became public, has been to protect Rawat from any adverse publicity. They have never showed any concern or compassion for the victims.

And what do we know about Rawat’s part in all this?

Jagdeo was a close friend of Rawat, who had known him since he was a small boy.

Jagdeo was reported to at least three “Mahatmas”, Gurucharanand in Australia, Judy Osbourne and Randy Prouty in California. One of these told the victim that “Maharaji already knew about this, and was glad it wasn’t somebody else.”

I received an email from an Ex-full time official of the cult, who I know personally. She told me that Jagdeo’s crimes were discussed privately, amongst small groups, at Co-ordinator conferences in the late 80s. The solution was eventually to limit his touring to the Asian communities in the Far East. If anybody reading this was a party to any of these discussion, maybe you could let us know more about what went on.

The people who received reports of Jagdeo’s abuse, are suffering from “memory lapses” now. They haven’t denied it happened. They just, “can’t remember”.

I think there may be many more victims than those who have already come forward. I heard from an Ex-premie who was involved with Unity School in Denver, that Jagdeo used to have “special sessions” with the children there. I hope he wasn’t up to the same shit, but I fear the worst.

The cult should have a thorough and open investigation. It should contact it’s members and ask anyone with information, to come forward. It should set up a fund to finance independent counselling and therapy for all Jagdeo’s victims, and negotiate adequate, satifactory compensation. Rawat could sell a Ferrari or two to kick it off.

Anth, who knows this won’t go away.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 09:12:38 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
I am so so so very sorry. That any child would have to endure this violation is dispicable. That anyone, who had the courage to speak of this, to be treated like this, is just plain shameful and cowardly.

My question is, why the trip to Hawaii to discuss this? Why on Tim Gallway's card? What is the lung disease? I'm suspicous about the timing.

Would you like an international foundation to help children who have been abused by cults?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 10:20:32 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Frank Sommerville told me that at some stage they might fly me to Hawaii to sign some sort of gag order because he had made it clear to EV/marcia Lietner that he had no interest in flying to Australia or becoming familiar with Australian law. So they had to do it on American soil I guess. If I had signed something like that it would have mewant that I was bound not to talk about the cult to anyone at all except my therapist.

They flew me to Brisbane just before Amaroo. It was an electronic ticket. I told the airport that a cult had paid for it and that I needed to know who in the cult had done this so they told me off the record that Tim Galway had. I had no idea at the time who he was. When I first met Pascotto and told him to thank Galway for me and he looked totally freaked out. I think they live in a paranoid mafia world.

The disease I have is Chronic Airway Obstruction Disease. I got bronchitus just after flying to Brisbane and have had pneumonia and so on ever since. I guess it was the stress.

Sure I would love it if there was such a foundation. What a great idea.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 06:56:30 (EDT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Abi,

Thank you for speaking out yet again. The abuse you suffered at the hands of one of Maharaji’s mahatmas is inexcusable. How Maharaji has responded to this situation is even more indefensible.

PWK please examine your conscience and ask yourself if you are satisfied with how Maharaji and his minions have responded to this situation. If not, please express your outrage.

Michael Dettmers

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:30:12 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sickened, disgusted and deeply saddened
Message:
You don't know me but I have a daughter and I tell you if anybody did that to my child I'd kill him. I don't care if I had to travel to the ends of the earth to do it. I don't care if it took every penny I owned. I don't care if it took me to my last breath. I'd find that poor excuse for a human and I'd castrate him for starters.

Abi, you're not fragmented. The premies who continue to follow Maharaji with their cult-addled brains are. Any premie who reads your account and continues to invest in M both spiritually, emotionally and intellectually is morally and ethically bankrupt. Plain and simple.

I'm sorry about your father. Part of me wonders if your path to wholeness would be quickened if he would stand beside you. In fact, this might not be an issue now for you. I can only speculate.

I can't tell you how deeply your account affected me. I can only trust that with your spirit and obvious intelligence you will find recourse and retribution.

Fondly, Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 00:05:47 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Abi,

I said I won't be posting here for a while, but I just couldn't hold myself from reading your post.

I really am lost for words as to what to say. I have read your posts in the past and the story of Jagdeo, but this is the first time that I have been touched by it. It is a terrible thing to go through. Am glad that you have had the courage to say it as it was. I can say'look after yourself' but it's just is not enough.

My heart goes out to you. Lots of love,

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:45:12 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Abi, I so wish I could say something to help. I fear there is nothing that will, but I offer you my love and support. If I can help in any way, please let me know. Feel free to e-mail me if you like; I'd love to talk with you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:33:28 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Timmi,
thanks for those words and thoughts.
Abi
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 20:27:39 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
What a terrible childhood . Seems to me the closer you got to god in human form in those days the more you suffered. I'm having lunch on Sunday with a 22yr old who was brought up in the cult but without an experience like yours . I shall print out your post & give it to her.

That's small consolation for you I know but be proud that you've spoken out . I'm proud of you anyway even though I've never met you .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:37:52 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Pat,
thanks for that. Funny about the god stuff. It's like a spiritual pollution. Which cult was your friend brought up in?

abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 18:48:59 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: You are one courageous woman Abi
Message:
And ev and rawat really are scumbags, knowing this and treating you the way they have.

I had no idea just how heavy an experience you'd been through.

EV and rawat deserve everything that comes to them, they obviously assumed you would just crumble under the pressure and disappear, and the fact that they are doing so little to track him down, when he could still be doing this in India is absolutely despicable.

I really hope being open like this in public really strengthens you to deal with the demons.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:12:31 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: You are one courageous woman Abi
Message:
You are right. I think they wanted to wear me down so that I would be so desperate I would accept their offer. Got the impression that Sommerville and the rest were very patronising. He said that he wasn't about to minimise what had happened! Talking to him was awful.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 18:39:40 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
My heart is beating really fast. I have heard many stories of abuse before, but this is a double abuse - a physical/emotional abuse compounded with a spiritual betrayal of the highest magnitude, AND your father is complicit.

So please let us and others who are sane and support you be your family and love you back to health on all levels.

love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:41:58 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Thanks Katie. I will get past all of this and I will get healthy again somehow. The last six months have been ghastly but taught me a lot.

Abi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 18:28:38 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Abi, I am sitting here reading your account with another former premie and we both had to respond, just to say how our hearts go out to you over this horrific experience of yours.

I might add that there are some premies that I know who are very upset at the way you seem to have been treated by Elan Vital. One bloke in particular told me today that he had been sexually abused at his school here in the UK and is particularly sympathetic to your misfortune as a result. I got the impression that he knows Valerio and some of these EV people and feels that he would like to express his concerns that you have not been properly treated to them. Of course he is still into Maharaji etc. and is probably not so sure that this reflects badly on his Master. If you want to talk to this guy (though I wouldn't be at all surprised if you don't) email me and I'll put you in touch.
Whatever it takes, you must surely not allow this trauma to make you ill. It's not something to give in to. I personally experienced that I was getting 'physically' ill from my involvement with Maharaji back in the 90's. What was going on exactly I don't really know, but backing off and expressing my misgivings on the forum over a period of years definitely helped me get better.
It sounds weird having a father so tied up in the whole thing - I guess that doesn't help. He should be on your side.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:45:47 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Thanks Patrick,

I think I'll pass on talking to your friend though. I tried talking to a premie before but the devotion to Rawat just kept on clouding things.

I've heard about other premies getting physically ill from being involved. It does help to have this forum as a support. Sad about my father, but he was always a big time devotee and I guess his own issues are caught up in his need to believe in it all. Too bad.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 00:32:21 (EDT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Abi

Your compassion for your father's blindness is top drawer.

At least he has had his greatest desire fullfilled - proximity to a TRUE MASTER . Too bad he hasn't realized yet that the MASTER is YOU !

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:54:09 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: scary stuff;like Freddie Krueger - only real!
Message:
well, if that's miragey's concept of a 'great soul' [mahatma], then the cult is truly sick, sick, sick. hope people reading who are still wavering take note, regarding how miragey and elan vital have empowered, coddled and protected this monster for many years.

hope you regain some good health asap.

Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:46:57 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: such
Subject: thanks Such
Message:
something is not right with the cult, that's for sure.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:28:39 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Abi,
I have a nine year old girl and I cannot imagine how this must have been for you, I hope it helps to write it here. I also think you are brave to write about this. I just can't get over how Jagdeo exploited his position to invoke fear, so he could carry on in his sick and twisted way. This is just horrible and I am so sorry.

You call your post 'fragmentation' and I understand that that is what the mind and body does in response to extreme trauma, but your narrative is not fragmented at all, it is very clear. I wish you health and happiness. And freedom from the grip of this monster--no, two monsters--Jagdeo the perpetrator and Maharaji the 'passive' monster.
Helen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:48:58 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
What really gives me the creeps is that Susan told them about him and nothing was done. That they knew about it and did nothing.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:22:22 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Speechless
Message:
I have no idea what to say.....except, thanks for telling the truth. It's unthinkable that a child would have to go through such hell.

How can Elan Vital justify the way they attacked you? How can Maharaji and Elan Vital justify continuing to abuse you? Like you said, where is the conscience of people like Marcia Leitner, Valerio Pascotto and Maharaji? Is this what that cult does to people?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:51:24 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Speechless
Message:
Guess it is what the cult does to people, at least these ones. I got the impression that they thought I was Mind because I have posted here. Mind is the enemy. Ironic that Jagdeo thought that childresn clothes were Mind and had to be removed. Sickening.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:22:08 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@idigo.ie
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear dear Abi, that is just the worst thing I've read for a very long time. Well done for spelling it out. Don't give up on your life because of that lung disease (I have a potentially serious disease myself and it has actually helped me appreciate each day much more) .. you are infinitely precious and with your bravery and honesty there is much benediction ahead.

I know that what was done to you was one of the worst crimes that can be done and I don't know how to help to find justice for you, But knowledge is strength and this info only spurs us on to seek justice.

Much love and admiration
Tim

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:54:11 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Dear Tim,

I wont give up and you are right that illness makes you more aware of how precious life is. I am just so glad that there is a real world outside the Maharaji cult.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:56:59 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Thanks, Abi. I needed to hear that.
Message:
I had never heard the whole sordid story before. I just hope that it is doing you good to let it all out and not keep any secrets. I know that it helps me to just tell the truth about pain and hurt from my past.

I doubt if you will ever get anything but more lies from the cult in their vain attempt to whitewash Rawat. Expecting them to soothe you pain is futile.

I think you know by now that there are lots of us here who will make sure that you story is widely known and than you will be not only vindicated one day but healed of this revolting sadistic and insane thing that destroyed your childhood.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 22:57:13 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: thanks Pat
Message:
I know you've been through it too. So many people have. You know what, it didn't destroy my childhood though because part of me was so angry that it kept me vital. There is part of you that they can never hurt.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:37:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Abi
Subject: I wish I knew you. I know I'd like you.
Message:
But I do worry about you anyway. I'm probably your father's age and possibly knew him in England in the early seventies and your mom too and maybe even saw you as a little kid. But I can't think too much about that because I'm afraid it is making me cry to think of you as a child going through that.

You're probably about my son's age and I worry about your health. Please email me anytime you wish if you wan't to talk about that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:48:57 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: ASOLUTELY BEST OF FORUM** although ...
Message:
... it sounds shallow to say that. I don't know what else to say.

You are brave, you are graceful in the midst of horror. And you are free.

With love,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:14:29 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I am free!
Message:
You are so right.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:20:50 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Re: ASOLUTELY BEST OF FORUM** although ...
Message:
I recieved a message wanting my comments on mr prem pal rawat form the above - I have no idea whe he got my email address as I very rarely us my real address, and I haven't used it in 3-5 months. Ideas or comments

Here is the url he sent me - I haven't been there yet as whois returns no such domain name.
Ben
[ Lineage of Mr Prepal Rawat ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:17:08 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: ASOLUTELY BEST OF FORUM** although ...
Message:
For Sommerville, talking about this is exactly what prevents the healing process. His whole rationale for the silencing thing was on the grounds that it would help me heal. Said he worked with a team of psychologists who helped him deal with people like me. Gave me the creeps. All these cover-ups he's created. God knows what truths he has silenced.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:59:04 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Fragmentation
Message:
Abi
For the 3 or so years I've been here I have always wondered why some who had left the cult decades ago still post here. I did not understand it at all. Now I am rethinking this after reading your post and am glad those people are around.

There are demons in my head that won't go away, things that happened to me and I know if I could write them here it would help me.
I admire your courage.

I remember being sad that I lived in an area where there was no Unity School to send my children!! Now I feel sick at the thought.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:04:21 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: hope you write them out
Message:
I think it does help to put it down. To make sense of it. It's like an exorcism, especially if you don't indulge in it and get caught in self-pity. That can be a trap.

Thanks for your support

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 03:55:32 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: pmaccanner@hotmail.com
To: Abi
Subject: Dear Abi
Message:
I am so sorry that happened to you. I hope that speaking out will be the start of a better time for you. I think it is so brave and generous of you.

Unity School had finished by the time I had my kids or I could have easily moved down there feeling I would be doing the best for them.

I don't suppose there is anything I can do as I live in the UK and don't have any contacts but I feel moved to offer. My address is above.

Peg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 16:50:34 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: self pity as a trap
Message:
Yes it's a huge one. I've been stuck there but am not anymore. Finally. Thanks for answering Jim about your dad. I've wondered but was cautious about asking because someone once posted to me in a way that made me feel I was being too demanding in my posts to you. So I've tried to be quiet but I can't help but reach out.
Love,
Selene
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:50:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Holy .................................
Message:
Abi,

You've never heard me say this here before but I've got tears in my eyes on this one. No, to hell with that, I'm simply crying. Lots of love, girl. Too much, too, too much.

Your father ..... how can he....aw forget it....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:01:51 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yes, my dad...
Message:
Don't really understand him at all. He got darshaned is all I can say. He even thought that Rawat was talking to him personally during satsang. They made him feel special. He actually told me when I was in Brisbane that he felt torn between me and Rawat and my jaw just dropped. He struggled with this for a bit and then came down on their side. Dr Pascotto is a very smooth talker.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:37:34 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Abi you are wonderful
Message:
...for being so brave and honest.
I have never read such a moving and poignant post.
I wish you all the best and hope that you have a good life.
It sounds to me that you have developed a strong and brave character despite such terrible abuse.
cheers
berni
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:05:19 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: thanks berni
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 17:48:06 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Well done Abi
Message:
I am so sorry you had to go through this and admire your bravery. These are the reasons why the forum needs to get back on topic.
Love to you Magiclara
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:06:06 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: thanks to you
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:53:49 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: How traumatic--still
Message:
Your writing will be shared with others.
I cant imagine how hard writing it must be as reading it is
traumatic enough.
Truly Gerry is right to focus us while you are unearthing so much.
One day your father will come away from the evil fuck.
Let us see the legal document they claim they sent to evil jerkdeo.
Let them give us his address and town so the local police can be aware of what is in thier midst.

You are my main reason for my plans.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 23:09:10 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: How traumatic--still
Message:
Dear Bill,
I don't think my father will ever leave Rawat. He said as much to me. He can't see that Rawat has anything to do with this really.

And I don't think they will ever surrender much about Jagdeo. They just close ranks and really they don't give a damn.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 03:55:55 (EDT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: How traumatic--still
Message:
Dear Abi,
You're right, they can't give a damn, they can't understand, the thing that is real for them is their sick making emotional attachment to Mr Rawat. But, and it's a big but, the common or garden premies, as they hear your story, are voting with their feet.

My sympathy is with you, love Lesley

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 14:30:07 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Erika Andersen and M's Obscene Wealth
Message:
I very much enjoyed Jim's deconstruction of David Andersen's 'article' on the website he runs with his sister, called 'Please Consider This,' which probably should be more appropriately called 'Apologists for the Maharaji Cult.'

I've read a few of the 'articles' so far, and I have to say that Mitch Ditkoff at least comes accross as honest. I actually enjoy his articles and he appears at least to be open to talk about what really went on in the cult. He isn't as dishonest and manipulative, and dripping with transparent hedging and spin as the Andersen twins.

Anyhow, on the subject of Maharaji's personal wealth, we get the following from Erika Andersen:

Personal Wealth

Money is a tricky topic. Very few of us seem neutral about it we hate it, we want it, we obsess about it, we're afraid of it. Some of our feelings are even more complicated: we don't want to want it but we're envious of people who have it; we'd like to feel comfortable with it, but instead it makes us feel overwhelmed and incompetent; we enjoy having it, but feel guilty spending it.

Given all this, I guess it's no wonder that some people get really uncomfortable about the fact that Maharaji is personally wealthy.

Just like her brother David, as Jim pointed out, Erika begins by preaching about how we 'all' are with a kind of religious, new-age tilt, that any premie or ex-premie will find familiar because it's a manipulation technique that has been used in satsang for years, and Maharaji uses it just about every time he speaks.

These averments are made obviously for the purpose of setting the tone she wishes to set, that talking about Maharaji's wealth, were he got it, and what he does with it in light of his professed 'mission' and stated priorities, is only due to that fact that we're 'all' a bit neurotic about money, so how could we possibily judge Maharaji and his $7 million yacht? Like I said, it's manipulative, and reflects the unwillingness to address these issues head on. But then, that isn't Erika's intent. She knows well what the criticisms of Maharaji really are, and she has no intention of actually addressing them, because she can't.

She goes on:

Add that to the fact that there was little or no separation, in the early '70s, between the money given to Maharaji personally and money given to the organizations that supported his work, providing lots of interesting historical murk and you have a pretty volatile brew.

Here Erika is just historically innacurate. While I was still an employee of Elan Vital, until at least 1983, there remained little separation between the organization's finances and Maharaji's finances, although by the 80s, a decade after Maharaji arrived in the West, the separation did exist on paper at least. Elan Vital personnel (initiators, coordinators, etc.) were instructed to encourage donations, indeed fundraise among the devotees, directly for Maharaji personally; the ashrams were instructed to send money directly to Maharaji (to write out checks in his name and send them to Malibu); Elan Vital fundraised,in secret as much as possible, for Maharaji's planes which he oversaw with compulsive attention and which he personally selected; Elan Vital held 'festivals' now called 'events,' at which participants were instructed to give cash in the feet-kissing darshan line which went directly for Maharaji's personal use, (and on and on and on).

To suggest that there wasn't all kinds of overlap between donations to Elan Vital and Maharaji personally, at least until the mid-80s, is ludicrous, and I know it's ludicrous because I saw it myself.

Even now, long after that separation has been very clearly made, critics of Maharaji still focus on his personal wealth: where does he get it, why does he have it and why don't I?

So now we get the dumb idea that all criticisms about Maharaji's wealth and where he got it and what he does with it, just arise out of jealousy or envy. This is so ridiculous as to warrant no response.

Instead of addressing the obvious legitimate questions about Maharaji's personal wealth, Erika just again implies that to even question the issue means there is something wrong with the questioner, in this case, it's due to our petty jealousy. Once again, I think these are skills honed in satsang by people who desperately wanted to be high priests in the Maharaji cult, and would do just about anything to demonstrate to him their loyalty and support. That apparently continues and many of us did the same thing during our cult years.

Where does he get it?

This, I think, is the big one. Critics often allege that Maharaji 's personal wealth comes from his followers, poor schnooks hoodwinked into believing 1) that their money is going for something else, and/or 2) that something bad will happen to them if they don't give him money. Kind of like a crooked televangelist.

In regard to 'giving to something else' issue, it depends on the period you are talking about. During the decade or more when Maharaji was claiming to be the incarnation of God on earth, I think even Erika can figure out that a lot of donations were probably made under false pretenses.

Second, there was tremendous pressure to give money to both Maharaji and Elan Vital at least for the period I was involved, since Maharaji gave us a COMMANDMENT to do 'service' the major form of which was giving money. Moreover, ashram residents turned over all of their money they earned to the ashram and much of that money went to Maharaji personally and they had no personal choice about this at all.

Finally, Maharaji got all kinds of free, slave labor for things like his plane, servants at his numerous 'residences' around the world, also under false pretenses, as he was demanding devotion and surrender at the time to himself as the living god.

True, nobody held a gun to anyone's head, but that melieu, and pressure to donate and dedicate permeated the organization, and was repeated in the tirades Maharaji layed on us almost every time he spoke to us.

When Maharaji said that if we didn't dedicate to him we would go to hell, like he said on Christmas Day, 1979, with me sitting in the room, that had a big impact on whether and how much money money people donated, don't think it didn't. The fact that to this day Maharaji has never clearly admitted those errors he made and corrected the false propaganda he espoused, makes it even worse.

These days, I am informed that pressure is still put on people to donate both to Maharaji and Elan Vital. It seems there is now a carrot and stick approach. In addition to Maharaji's directive to do 'participation' (give money), large donators get perks, like close seats at programs, special access to the person they believe to be the living Perfect Master, parties on his $7 million yacht and the like. Sure, the methods have changed, but the relentless fundraising, without any sort of proof of were the money actually goes, appears to continue to this day.

I may be fuzzy on many things, but I am absolutely clear on this: none of Maharaji 's personal support comes from donations that I, or anyone else, make to the various organizations around the world that help to support his work. It goes to make Maharaji 's message available to people who are interested in hearing it, through satellite broadcasts, videos and other materials, and at public events where Maharaji speaks. My donations also help cover the costs of the sessions where people are shown the techniques of Knowledge, so that these sessions can be offered free of charge.

Erika doesn't bother to tell us how she knows this, since the finances of Maharaji, Elan Vital, and the various other cult organizations are kept highly-guarded secrets. Isn't it interesting that Erika is so sure about this, and yet, like I said below, unlike any other charitable organization, and most legitimate churches, Elan Vital and Maharaji never tell anyone how much money is collected from donations and how much is spent on the various things they claim to spend it on. All we get from Elan Vital are bar charts with percentages with no amounts and no explanation of what any of it actually means. It's so self-serving as to be laughable. I think it also makes premies feel like idiots because neither Elan Vital, nor Maharaji, appear to think Maharaji's followers are competent enough to even have the information. This, while 'fundraising' continues unabated. [This secrecy within Maharaji's organization is one of the reasons so many premies come to EPO to find out what is really going on.]

As an example of the EV misinformation, like I said below, Elan Vital says it covers Maharaji's 'expenses' for 'events.' From what I understand these are astronomically high, including paying rent to a company Maharaji controls for a Gulfstream jet, covering Maharaji's expenses to fly the plane, for his personal servants, for residences, and all best of everything that Maharaji requires, but we don't know for sure, because none of this is disclosed. And given that Maharaji has never had a job in his life, and has a ninth grade education, it's pretty easy to see where his money didn't come from.

But, of course, we are supposed to take Erika's word for it that it's all legit. Especially given the financial improprieties of the past that even Erika acknowledges, one would think that Maharaji and Elan Vital would be keen to demonstrate their stellar financial procedures and controls, at least to the people they are asking to donate to them. The fact that it's all a secret speaks for itself.

So, why isn't this information disclosed to the public, and why does Elan Vital hide behind the 'church' exemption and avoid all legal obligations to do that? And why doesn't Erika even address that? [This is especially ironic, since Maharaji claims that what he is about isn't a religion.] Well, when it is financially convenient, Maharaji seems to be willing to overlook that and be a 'church.'

Erika is free to donate to whomever she likes, but it is cearly legitimate that people ask the questions about these things, both what is going on now, and what went on in the past, and by even the most basic standards, no answers are given by Maharaji or Erika, and I think it's unlikely we will ever get them. Erika or anyone else can give money under those circumstances, but it doesn't make one defective if you raise those questions.

Why does he have it?
Shouldn't Maharaji be skinny and ascetic, living a humble life and wearing scratchy clothes? Shouldn't he give away all his worldly goods and wander from place to place, preaching...no, wait, that's Saint Francis of Assisi. Sometimes I think we've all watched Gandhi too many times.

This is more red-herring, manipulative crap from Erika. Like in her 'myths' article, the suggestion that anyone has said that Maharaji should live an ascetic life is a absurd. The question actually is, where did he get his money, and even more, if his true mission, as he has claimed, is to 'spread knowledge' to the world because he cares so much for the world and loves them just so much, why does he have a $7 million yacht instead of using those resources for his avowed mission? This, while at the same time his organizations are out fundraising for that purpose. It makes one wonder what his priorities actually are, and the fact that he has a declining number of followers in the west and only a handful of people receive knowledge in the west every year, while at the same time he has become fabulously rich, are additional indications of what Maharaji's priorities really are, and always have been, when it comes to money.

In the rest of her article Erika just reiterates that Maharaji shouldn't have to live like a monk and she apparently likes that he has gold plumbing fixtures. Well, that's her choice.

But her ending jab at Maharaji's critics that they are just driven by envy is total bullshit and I have a hard time seeing how an intelligent person would stoop to even make that argument with a straight face. But then maybe Erika is really laughing.

Joe Whalen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 21:54:40 (EDT)
From: Hey Joe,
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That's the way, uh-huh, u-huh, I like it (nt)
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:13:53 (EDT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: He comes from a rich family
Message:
Hi Joe,

In 1999, my father asked me the question he had periodically asked me since 1973: where does Maharaji get his money from.

I replied that I had heard that he came from a rich family, that he had been a wise businessman and made many personal investments which were paying off.

I did not say: from us.

That is not to say that I had a problem with Maharaji having the best of everything, I thought that's what perfect masters required to make living with us low life unconscious beings bearable. But, why could I not say the simple obvious truth of the matter: from us?

Clearly, at the time I bravely trotted out those 'possible' answers, I knew that I, along with so many others had been giving him as much cash as we could possibly afford, I knew that money given to ev in the regular way was passed on for his personal expenses. I did not know if his family was rich, I did not know that he was a successful investor, I had just vaguely 'heard' these notions.

Could it be that Mr Rawat is a little bit embarrassed by the underhand way he has been raking in the money? He is very fond of saying that he doesn't need anybody, we all need him. Perhaps he doesn't like to admit that, whereas we actually don't need him at all, without his premies and the money they give him, he would be the one with real problems!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 16:23:25 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: True, he came from a rich family, BUT
Message:
he didn't inherit anything !!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 15:51:08 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Driven by envy
Message:
Right Joe , who amongst us would envy Rawat's Steptford Wives lifestyle. Certainly not me . If he was a middle-aged bum on a boat in the Caribbean with a couple of willing girls & a key or 2 of grass , then I might envy him the money that would make that kind of life possible.

Envy someone who uses unpaid servants to pick every single fallen pine needle by hand from his driveway....no way.

That particular personal recollection of their time doing service for the Perfect Master is buried in the archives somewhere .

Great post Joe : Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 11, 2001 at 14:54:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great post, excellent typo
Message:
These averments are made obviously for the purpose of setting the tone she wishes to set, that talking about Maharaji's wealth, were we got it, and what he does with it in light of his professed 'mission' and stated priorities ...

Funny.

Joe, you hit all the bases. I wonder if either David or Erika hve the guts to come here, where they've been many times before, and pick up the conversation(s) now that they've got their own silly soapbox.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index