Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 15, 2001 To: Oct 22, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Faith Harper -:- Xenas E-mail -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 15:21:38 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Do you have Hotmail? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:04:57 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- And there's the spiders too -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 23:55:59 (EDT)
__ SC -:- Hi Faith -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 22:38:18 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- That's so rude! -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:54:24 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Ye of little Faith ;) -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:53:19 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- That's just spam -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:58:20 (EDT)
__ Barbara -:- Re: Xenas E-mail -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 15:57:09 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Faith, welcome to the internet -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:35:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rex Hunt -:- Piscatorial expert -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:36:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: Faith, its internet pollution -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:57:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS Faith, it was not an expremie -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:11:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: PS Faith, it was not an expremie -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:50:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- It's a fact, Pussy -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:58:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moll of Mole -:- Re: PS Faith, it was not an expremie -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:25:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: PS Faith, it was not an expremie -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:22:36 (EDT)

Vicki -:- Bjorn E -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:51:10 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- agree -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:04:52 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Vicky -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ Agnes Copperfield -:- But we feel sorry for Uriah Heep [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:41:20 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Bjorn E--I Agree! [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 15:43:46 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:38:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:35:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:02:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:41:46 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- how dose vids/events work:audio secrets[?] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:35:40 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- getting a bit carried away ? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:47:02 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- jes havin' some fun -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:20:09 (EDT)
__ cq -:- More audio secrets -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:40:01 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- parametric array + low-hz + subliminal message -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:13:32 (EDT)
__ such -:- da vid tranquility zzzzz factor -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:07:14 (EDT)
__ such -:- dat backstage audio-wave generator[?] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:00:08 (EDT)
__ __ Vicki -:- Such, could it be...... -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:38:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- could it be, yes it could -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:23:50 (EDT)

Jim -:- Could this be right re email ethics? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 20:43:20 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Could this be right re email ethics? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:27:32 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- whose letter is it anyway?? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:45:43 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- RE is NOT an organisation -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:25:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes it is -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:53:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- It's not as juicy as you think -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 00:39:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Let's be fair now -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 00:54:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- And neither is EPO - despite suffix -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:33:53 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Well, obviously you don't -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:42:39 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: Could this be right re email ethics? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:07:34 (EDT)
__ suchami bananderbilt -:- dat doubt-maker: if ya hafta ask... -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:40:15 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Too zen for me but... -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:47:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- To zen is human -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:43:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ suchelectricalbanana -:- dat was zen, dis ist now -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:04:31 (EDT)

JHB -:- Check out this site! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 18:01:39 (EDT)
__ Chuck S. -:- Another one to add to Maharaji Watch... -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:02:57 (EDT)
__ janet -:- trust no one-not even yourself. -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:18:14 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Janet, look a bit deeper:) -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:36:10 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- in gawd we tryst -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:11:18 (EDT)
__ such -:- re: dat's a site fer sore eyes -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:00:43 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Now, who did that? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:32:17 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Now, who did that? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:46:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Now, who did that? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:06:45 (EDT)

AJW -:- Catweasle, you forgot my question. -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:50:42 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- yes, what did you mean CW? -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:19:22 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji's Fundraising -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 16:16:53 (EDT)
__ such -:- Maharaji's Fundraiding [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:43:16 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Almost no PWK get a global picture -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:51:55 (EDT)
__ __ Vicki -:- P.S. -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:29:26 (EDT)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Almost no PWK get a global picture -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:25:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- Bingo! we have a winner -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 18:05:53 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Maharaji's Fundraising -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:39:29 (EDT)
__ Nick -:- Re: Maharaji's Fundraising -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:57:56 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Regional co-ordinator you say? (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:09:19 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Hehe Nick -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:15:00 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Maharaji's Fundraising -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:41:38 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Maharaji's Fundraising -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:02:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Maharaji's Fundraising -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:29:58 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Virus alert (ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:35:58 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- It's a hoax -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:48:49 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- sorry to be so annoying :) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:58:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Anne Thracks -:- Not at all! (NT) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:22:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- hey, it's me Aunt Thorax! [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:41:50 (EDT)

Bjørn E -:- International human rights -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:31:08 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: your tuppence. -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:31:36 (EDT)
__ salam -:- bull -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:13:10 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- ***Bjorn supports RE!*** (LOL!!!) JHB? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:10:24 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Jim, did you like the new blurb? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:13:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- On further thought, CANCEL the link -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:02:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm also thinking about this -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 18:31:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, John ....but -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:18:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Of course you are free to debate -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 03:00:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Very convincing reasoning Jim [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:13:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- At the risk of stirring the s..t, I agree -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:20:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's it exactly! -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:31:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The Jim-free Forum -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:03:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Yeah John, well done. [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:33:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, but this would make it better -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:19:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Agree-Great blurb for RE Thought provoking!! [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:03:11 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- could you be more nauseating? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:33:04 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E -:- nauseating?=disgraceful, discusting? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:12:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- your wife was right -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:16:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sven -:- your daddi was right -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:05:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- BASTARD! ~) [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:07:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- another enlightened premie -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:23:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- JHB -please sort this scum -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:55:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm not FA here -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ..and you are scum, Sven [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:49:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- FA: Cyberstalker alert -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:30:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: FA: Cyberstalker alert -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 06:54:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I'll reply to that -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:36:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Your reply -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 09:08:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Here's your change. -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 10:04:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great post, Scott -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:45:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- LoL Jim [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:54:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- A Correction, Jim.... -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:15:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Well Scott, I disagree with you -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:02:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Bjorn states: ''I humbly state...'' -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:27:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- ...Because, you insensitive jerk -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:26:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Facts, Dermot -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 09:21:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- A does not equal B -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:40:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Empiricism in practical perspective. -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 10:23:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Nothing is worse than a dullard on the law -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:27:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Jim the great has spoken -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:59:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Observation -:- Re: Jim the great has spoken -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:18:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- BTW Jim -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:21:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- And Jim a question to the big lawyer -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:31:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: And Jim a question to the big lawyer -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:09:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: And Jim a question to the big lawyer -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 16:12:23 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Sorry my mistake this should be -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:32:26 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Re: Bjorns 'document for parliament' -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:57:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- My'document for parliament' -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:09:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- why go on and on and on -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:41:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Justice is important -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 09:49:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Justice is important -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:34:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- You sound conflicted... -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 10:16:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Conflicted or not..., -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:20:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- trite, arrogant and thick as a brick -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:16:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- a tip -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:37:24 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 15:21:38 (EDT)
From: Faith Harper
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Xenas E-mail
Message:
Last night I received the following E-mail
from Xena with no forwarding address.

Kinky messy fist fucking lesbians sodomized 'slut'
Xuxa teens orgy pleasure.

I would like to know if this has come from the FA
or anyone who has access to privite information on this forum?

I can only think that this E-mail has come to me as a result of my one and only post on this forum regarding my denial of any knowledge of the letter posted by someone known as Pam and the main reason this has been sent to me I would guess is because I stated that I have no reason to engage in this endless war of words regarding Maharaji.

Please have the honesty to address my query. If I am mistaken then I apologise for my mistake.
If I am correct then who ever has sent this to me must really take a look at their agendas as this is more a reflection of their state of mind then anything to do with Maharaji.
This is cyber stalking and there is no justification for it. If this has come from you guys then your credibility is zero.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:04:57 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: Do you have Hotmail?
Message:
When I was an FA here, we had an FA mailbox which was a hotmail account. It continuously received mail like this. I don't know how they get the addresses, but I suspect they simply send to all possibilities, so if you get a new hotmail account, after a little while you will start to receive rubbish like this.

Regarding linking this to your post here, as you didn't give your email address that is an impossibility.

John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 23:55:59 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: And there's the spiders too
Message:
automatic e-mail checking software that trawls for addresses.
This site is registered in search engines, has links to other sites.
Just one of the bores of the internet.
Just turn up your security level in your e-mail software in your preferences, and you should cut a lot of it out.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 22:38:18 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: Hi Faith
Message:
This is in response to you post down below ....

I was also informed today that someone told you I suggested the triad was, well, you know...you guys (naughty Rutty?!)

No, I suggested no such thing. You are not the vindictive or conspiritorial type, John is much too smart (and busy I imagine) to get caught up that sort of stuff and Rutty is enjoying a well earned break from the rigours of Amaroo et all and enjoying her creativity. It's my personal belief that not practicing K or not 'following' Maharaji in NO WAY decreases a person's worth, intelligence, attractiveness or integrity. In fact, as people on this forum testify regularly, there are some who feel much better off being free of a cult thinking mentality. Good for them.

Hope to see you some time this summer Faith (W keeps calling). It would be wonderful to experience the delicate culinery delights of your Indian cooking.
Remember the beautiful coral heart? Guess who has it now??!!

cheers,
D

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:54:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: That's so rude!
Message:
Kinky messy fist fucking lesbians sodomized 'slut'
Xuxa teens orgy pleasure.

Faith,

Did it ever occur to you that Xena might not want you publishing her private email to you like this? Did you ask her?

Sheesh!

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:53:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: Ye of little Faith ;)
Message:
Faith,

I would be shocked as hell if anyone here ever sent anything repulsive like that to you. People may sometimes have sarcastic comments but they are posted directly to the person who posted.

You may have been told that the exes here do malicious things, especially if you've ever read Glasser's or the Anderson Twin's site. The truth is, Faith, that people here are NOT like that at all.

Sorry you had to feel violated by this forum. I'm sure was not very pleasant.

Are you the 'Faith' who used to live in Miami in the early '80's.

Hope you feel relieved.

Deborah

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:58:20 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: That's just spam
Message:
No one has sent it to you personally, I'd reckon. In fact, spammers often don't have your e-mail address -- they do it through your ISP's server. Whatever you do, don't reply to it. I don't know how long you've been on the Internet, but most people end up with spam.

I don't want to pick on you per-se, because people are throwing around the term 'cyberstalking' without having the foggiest idea what it means, I might add. Look at the link above for what the US Department of Justice has to say about cyberstalking. Cyberstalking usually involves repeated incidents, threatening behavior, and someone actually tracking you down and repeatedly contacting you and harassing you.

Most spam does not qualify, because they don't even know who you are and could care less. If you reply, many spammers collect e-mail addresses and then sell them to other people for business solicitations.

Here's information about SPAM, I couldn't include both links in the link portion. Definitely good to educate yourself about this stuff.

Bests,

Francesca
[ DOJ Definition of cyberstalking ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 15:57:09 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Faith Harper
Subject: Re: Xenas E-mail
Message:
Faith:

I get some pretty shocking emails like that occasionally. As far as I know, that kind of stuff is garden variety disgusting spam. Did the email have a website link included? I honestly don't think anyone sent it to you because of any disavowal you may have posted. Much worse has been said on the forum by people without their being spammed like that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:35:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Faith, welcome to the internet
Message:
That stuff is just spam. Everybody eventually gets it. Net smut-purveyors are the lowest form of life on earth. I feel sorry for parents who have to warn their kids about smut mail. I'm convinced that one of the worst offenders is actually the very company who provides my email box.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:36:12 (EDT)
From: Rex Hunt
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Piscatorial expert
Message:
Hey Pat, you worked out the fish you have lured? Its like Pink Snapper only it's red.Same species.The female is a little shyer than the male.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:57:11 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Faith, its internet pollution
Message:
I get it all the time in my hotmail - as well as 'you can enlarge your penis' and 'get out of debt in 3 days'.
at first I thought someone sent it to me- until I found the box to tick in hotmail to block such posts.
even after blocking such posts, a new one can leak into my inbox and it seems to open the floodgates again.

so I have to 'block' every few weeks.

also- I have recieved the Xena one .
If someone here was 'spamming' I think they would be a little more creative. It is ignoramus spamm.
Z

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:11:33 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: PS Faith, it was not an expremie
Message:
....who posted your name on this forum. It was a premie who lives in your neck of the woods who posts anonymously as Catweasel. Yes, he fights dirty. Does not want us to know his name but seems not averse to publishing others' names.
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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:50:32 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: PS Faith, it was not an expremie
Message:
Good one Pat. Good one.Unbelievable.
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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:58:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: It's a fact, Pussy
Message:
I know that I would probably like you if I knew who you were. You have a wicked sense of humor and a modicum of passion but it's hard to respect an imaginary weasel thingy.

Just look how lovey-dovey David Roupell and I are now that we have got his Walter Mittyisms out of the way. :)

Yes, I know you won't do it but I sure wish you would.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:25:03 (EDT)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: PS Faith, it was not an expremie
Message:
Pat, I thought CW came from down Melbourne way and his name was Michael.............................
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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:22:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Moll of Mole
Subject: Re: PS Faith, it was not an expremie
Message:
When I said ''your neck of the woods'' I meant Oz. Yeah, I know it's huge.

And you are allowed to say his name as far as I know. It isn't illegal and I won't tell your gangster hubby, Moll.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:51:10 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Bjorn E
Message:
Had forty seven responses to his posting below, and twelve of those were from him. Me thinkest he likes coming over to our house to play because he gets no attention at home. Negative attention is better than nothing for a child starved for attention. Evidently that home that knowledge provides isn't doing the trick for him. Since timeouts don't work for him and putting him on restriction and taking away his allowance phases him not a bit, how about just plain, old ignoring him? Thirty five people talking to him must have made him feel reeeeeally good.
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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:04:52 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: agree
Message:
my irritation got the better of me. He has to be one of the biggest creeps I've come across. Skin crawling.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:01:30 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Vicky
Message:
Don't you worry Vicky, I will stay away.
These days I am working on Human rigts. So I replied to a post and tried to address the fact that quite a few people don't know know about these laws that are actually been a part of the laws in european countries. But of course that is 'nauseating' according to the first comment of my tread.
It is also quite hard to understand that a statement 'that I humbly say I don't know', makes some people feel the creeps.

So be it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:41:20 (EDT)
From: Agnes Copperfield
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: But we feel sorry for Uriah Heep [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 15:43:46 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Bjorn E--I Agree! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:38:03 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I
Message:
Hi there Cynthia, how are you?

And Hi to you, Vicki

It never fails. And just look at the response he gives you in return. In his mind, it's because he said 'he honestly doesn't know' that we were ticked off.

In his posts about Maha, he blames us for accusing him of saying 'he honestly knows'. When in fact, he blatantly lies about his magazines from the 70's where Maha insists that he was only a Man. He apparently got his own editions of And It's Devine or whatever.

Bjorn cannot be wrong for anything, in his mind, that is. Severe cult thinking even outside the realm of M & K.

Go figure. Thanks for saying something. More avoidance is necessary. i absolutely agree with you and your advice.

Deborah

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:35:23 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I
Message:
Gee, thanks! I don't know what he said to me because I refuse to read his posts anymore. Is that an annoying no-see-um knat I hear buzzying round my ear?
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:02:52 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I
Message:
Oh Vicki,

You have avoid the posts. Then every once in awhile you find you have the stomach and you take a look so you'll at least know what others are saying. But avoidance has to be the rule of thumb.

however, Bjorn says mindfucking things all the time and works to spin the topics all the time.

Worse, he has viciously stalked Abi and said blood curdling comments. This, sister, is NOT acceptable to me. At all.

Nice to read your posts.

p.s. Did I read somewhere that you are aka btdt?

Take care,

Deborah

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:41:46 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Bjorn E--I Agree! And so do I
Message:
Yep, you are right about his bloocurdling posts to Abi. I mean, that is probably the one thing here that everyone is the MOST protective about, Abi. So for his to say something so outrageously rude gets us all in an up roar. There is nothing we wouldn't do to protect Abi from further abuse. So when he posts, and we read anything, he gets what he wants, he just doesn't care how he gets it because he is so desperate and will stoop to the lowest of the low and insensitive.

Once, while I was in France, I was at a trainstation exhausted and thirsty. I went to the sitdown restaurant and the luggage bag I was carrying bumped into a glass, sending it shattering to the floor. The waiter, along with every single person there, turned, sized me up as an uncouth tourist, and started what I can only imagine was the most foul and abusive torrent of rage. I didn't understand one word.
As I looked at the people around me lower their heads in embarressment, I offered to pay for the glass. He wouldn't even acknowledge me. From one who was used to getting berated often during childhood, this was a completely unique experience. The words didn't sting. They couldn't hurt. Yes, I was embarressed somewhat, but it was only a cheap glass. I learned a big lesson that day about words and their power, or lack of.

For me, to give this guy, if that's what he is, one bit of acknowledgement is to buy into his game. I won't play.

Yes, btdt is/was me. When I first started reading here, all I could keep muttering was, 'Yep, been there done that' after so many posts!

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:35:40 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org/asm
To: All
Subject: how dose vids/events work:audio secrets[?]
Message:
we know that miragey and his minions have been actively interested in biofeedback programming since 1973-4, as evidenced by reports regarding the 'consciousness wave' and 'biofeedback' in DLM publications, incl dat phantom paperbwack 'Who is Rugu Miragey?'

Now, see how it's done:

http://www.centerpointe.com/product/holosync/index.cfm

http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm

http://www.centerpointe.com/product/research1/index.cfm

http://www.centerpointe.com/news/archives/1998-06-01.txt

peace and lentils,

da lil' swami
[ http://www.centerpointe.com/product/holosync/index.cfm ]
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:47:02 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: getting a bit carried away ?
Message:
No one has said whether there is any more than hearsay evidence ( & those very vague) that these mindcontrol techniques have been used at public programmes .

In any event during the glory days of the 70's there was no background music , only devotional songs sung by real people on stage.

I can't remember the 1st time there was spacey new age tweetlings going on through darshan ....77/78 maybe ?

No , if we're going to address our common delusion , looking for an outside 'reason' , i.e we fell into the hands of a mister big with unlimited resources to take over the world , won't do it .

We are the ones who took the child & made the man .

I notice everytime I go shopping I get called 'sir'. When I was 20 I'd rather have cut my foot off than call anyone 'sir' , & yet just a year later I was kissing someone elses feet , not without grave misgivings ( i.e inner turmoil non rationalised ).

Can we ever get to the bottom of this ? I suspect not , I'll wait for the evidence that biofeedback was played through the air conditioning , but even if it was it's not an explanation .

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:20:09 (EDT)
From: such
Email: banana@friedatlast.org/y
To: PatD
Subject: jes havin' some fun
Message:
personally, i find this subject far more interesting than, for instance, speculating about who's the latest multi-personality troll on da forum.

whether marji and co. have exploited this technology [or not], it's still interesting to read the information available on the internet about these techniques, and see how other groups have already been using this technology for mind-altering and to rake in big bucks.

Remember, Scientology has used its lil' interrogation truth meter for 35 years, and lo-frequency audio programming has been a factor of biofeedback research for almost 40 years. Heck, the Nazis, CIA, and KGB all experimented with various sorts of mind manipulation through technology and multimedia. By now, the documentation and hardware is out there and available to anyone so inclined.

As mentioned before, miragey and his org minions clearly expressed an interest in this research way back in the early 70s. They also put electronic eavesdropping bugs in some UK offices, among other things. So, I wouldn't necessarily rule out subliminal electonic mind control programming. After all, mirageyism is all about mind control and cult member manipulation. I mean, we're not talking about da fairy godmother and Saint Kabir here; we already know 'bout da assassination attempt and coverup, da rawrat hit and run manslaughter and perjuries, da sexual abuses, da diversion of tens of millions of dollars, da authorized cash smuggling, da rugu and org rote cheat and deceit. Hey, it's not a stretch. go figure... hahahaha

peace + lentils,

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:40:01 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: More audio secrets
Message:
Don't forget to check this neat little device:

The Audio SpotlightTM
This beam of sound behaves just like a beam of light - 'shining' it at a specific listener allows only that person to hear it, and projecting it against a surface creates an acoustic 'image' at the point of reflection. It is the first device that provides total control over both the location and distribution of high quality sound, something impossible to achieve with traditional loudspeakers.

http://sound.media.mit.edu/~pompei/spotlight/

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:13:32 (EDT)
From: such
Email: banana@bigbrothervisions.org/y
To: cq
Subject: parametric array + low-hz + subliminal message
Message:
http://sound.media.mit.edu/~pompei/spotlight/

Yeah, by generating 8-11 hz waves focussed at an audience, an insidious maniacal brain-washer could get 'em in the susceptible feelin' groovy trance mood, then direct the parametric array speaker at specific audience members near the front, and input subliminal messages into their heads that no one else would hear.

You know, like: "it is by grace that you can participate -- write a big check, write a big check - Now!"

the technology exists, by his satanic majesty's request - oy vey.

kinda reminds me of sumptin'. hmmmmmmm...

P+L,
[ http://sound.media.mit.edu/~pompei/spotlight/ ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:07:14 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org
To: suchabanana
Subject: da vid tranquility zzzzz factor
Message:
David Krech, University of California at Berkeley psychologist predicted almost twenty-five years ago: 'I foresee the day when we shall have the means, and therefore, inevitably, the temptation, to manipulate the behavior and intellectual functioning of all people through environmental and biochemical manipulation of the brain.'

http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm

http://www.centerpointe.com/product/research1/index.cfm

http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm
[ http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:00:08 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org
To: suchabanana
Subject: dat backstage audio-wave generator[?]
Message:
David Krech, University of California at Berkeley psychologist predicted almost twenty-five years ago: 'I foresee the day when we shall have the means, and therefore, inevitably, the temptation, to manipulate the behavior and intellectual functioning of all people through environmental and biochemical manipulation of the brain.'

http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm

http://www.centerpointe.com/product/research1/index.cfm

ahh, yeth, I am feeling thutch blith!...

PS you should try it in quad [vs stereo]!
[ http://www.centerpointe.com/discussion/faq.cfm ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:38:11 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Such, could it be......
Message:
....the reasons for stopping the premies from giving live satsang? Supposedly it was because we were not clear and therefore incapable. In the kit training promo Michael Nori video, m referred to that time.

So instead, we have m's videos by the truckload, satellite events that aren't always live feeds, infact rarely, and all produced by one organization only-Visions. Nice little tidy operation, isn't it?

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:23:50 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org/y
To: Vicki
Subject: could it be, yes it could
Message:
hey, he stopped shatsong 'cause da pwemmies who were meditating who were good public speakers made more sense than he did - don't wanna empower any potential competition, after all. so, he pulls da rug out from under da phlegmies -- control freak fuhrer trip: only marji to speak, only marji knows, everything and whole org focus jus marji, marji, and more marji. I mean, after all, maybe it became clear that every premie was a potential Bubblegum ji [Satpal]. Look what Shri Hans did, too. How many Sarupanand devotees claimed to be a massa? haha

then, dey got this sinister mind-control audio-video technology available - not very expensive. Now, if you got a megalomaniacal control-freak cult, are they gonna use it, or not? hehehe

kit twaining progwam -- yikes -- btw, Nouri was my roommate; he still apologist for dat greedy rugu. [Mikey be rich and pretty, but not too smart, apparently.] kit training - i.e. 'kitty litter.' kinda like dose Tony Robbins tapes -- er was dat Scientology, er was dat Amway? hmmmm...

You heard that miragey has decided to rename Elan Vital [the church formerly known as Divine Light Mission]? Now, it's gonna be called Scamway.

Peas + lentils,

PS could it be, yes it could, sumptin coming, sumptin good -- but not tonite, To-night...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 20:43:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Could this be right re email ethics?
Message:
Following up on Katie and my discussion re the netiquette of email privacy, I've been thinking further. Somehow, the idea of Steve sending me the RE FA's email rejection letter and my posting it here or the idea of my posting Erika Andersen's email to me explaining that her cult apologist site isn't interested in any sort of dialogue with 'hard-line' anti-M folks like me don't seem wrong to me. Now maybe that's just because I'm unethical, plain and simple. However, I don't really think that's the answer (not to say that I'm not still unethical, of course).

Email is like but not identical to snail mail. Snail mail comes in different stripes. Some snail mail, like Marolyn's letter for instance, is most definitely private, personal and intended for the recipient alone. I agree that mail like that should be kept private in almost all circumstances and only exposed or publicized for strong, compelling reasons. It just so happens that I think I had those reasons for first posting that letter. A cult by nature is based on artifice, deception and information deprivation. Marolyn's letter offered an excellent and unique window on the thinking of a woman we once worshipped, oh yes we did. As she and her husband have chosen to stonewall all our many sincere entreaties to dialogue, etc., I'm satisfied that she doesn't deserve the same privacy rights vis-a-vis her thoughts about life, Maharaji and premies as she would otherwise. In short, I have no qualms about showing everyone how Durga Ji, Goddess of Love, called people who stop 'practising' assholes. We deserve to know what she's saying, no matter where she's saying it.

Generally, however, I do think that private letters should stay that way. And some email, not all, is just that private.

There is some mail, however, that has a certain official element to it. This mail, electronic or otherwise, is not, in my opinion, as secret. When FA's or web site managers are doing their thing, there's a certain offical aspect to their communications that just aren't as sensitive -- or at least shouldn't be -- as simple, private communications between people. For one thing, the communications often include official or bureaucratic decision making. Acts are undertaken, official positions are stated. None of these are necessarily private by nature nor should they be. In Steve's case, imagine if the RE FA had first emailed Steve saying that he or she was about to tell Steve what their decision was but that he had to first promise to keep it a secret. I think that would have been weird precisely because the 'official' is asking for a cloak of secrecy that enshrouds their 'official' ation. That's not fair. What if Steve said no? Would he still be entitled to an answer? Yes he would, just as I was entitled to an answer from Erika regardless of who I choose to share it with.

I see grounds for flexibility here in another respect as well. Don't we often tell people all the time what so-and-so said to us about this-and-that? Yes, of course we do and, unless there's something particularly sensitive about the information, no one even thinks to criticize the informant as unethical or rude. Say, for instance, that the RE FA had called Steve and said just what was in the email. Would Steve have been rude or unethical telling someone or even telling a lot of people? No. People relay such communications all the time and no one bats an eyelash.

Now, though, email has, in some ways, replaced oral communication. It's just so damn easy. Why look! It's allowed us to 'talk' with others here, there and everywhere day in and day out. What might have once been oral is now, for convenience sake sometimes if no other reason, just whipped off as a fast email. Does the fact that these communcations are reduced to writing somehow embue them with more automatic sanctity and privacy? I don't think so.

No, I think that the best way to approach email confidentiality is to follow what we do with oral conversations. There are some things that are so obviously private that both parties know without mention that the message should be kept confidential. Then there are other messages that could be considered that way but the parties better expressly state as much and take nothing for granted. We do that all the time when we talk to one another, 'I'll tell you but you have to promise ....' Why shouldn't some of our email be like that too?

And then there are communications that don't deserve confidentiality even if it's asked for. The RE's response to Steve qualifies, IMO. Steve was entitled to a response and it's his to do with as he pleases. If it reflects poorly on the institution responding to him, so be it. What I mean is that even if the RE FA had asked Steve to keep this to himself I don't think he'd have any obligation to do so. Just like Erika would have no right to expect me to keep her email to me private. The fact is, it wasn't private, it was someone's official business.

Something like that. What do you think? I'm right? Wrong? Off the wall? Sleazy? What?

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:27:32 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Could this be right re email ethics?
Message:
Jim,

I believe that correspondence whether snail or email belongs to the recipient. The expectation of confidentiality should not be assumed by the sender; the sender should, IMO, specify if the correspondence is private and confidential. Yet, regardless of the writer/sender's expectation, it's been sent, and the risk of exposure will be there. I've received private snailmail correspondence which I've shared with others, although not on a public forum. That's the difference here about your issue. If it was okay by Steve, why not post it?

As JohnT said, once you put a letter in a mailbox, ya can't get it back. And don't get caught trying to shove your arm into the mailbox, especially these days. However, if the PO considers the letter as ''posted'' then likewise so should the sender of an email. I think it's a personal ethical/moral issue and could be discussed 'til the cows come home. Permission of the recipient is important.

The issue about RE and Steve's email rejection is a good example. Did Steve give you permission to post the response here? That speaks to Steve being the owner. I don't believe you would have been ethically required to make a request of the RE FA to post the letter because that person had already clicked 'send.' And the RE FA is anonymous. That adds another issue onto the plate.

That's my 2 pennies,
Cynthia, with a terrible cold, ears blocked and a head that feels like a helium balloon. But I don't sound like Donald Duck:)

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:45:43 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: whose letter is it anyway??
Message:
Ethics, eh? Do you mean those principles that people who disagree with us lack?

But seriously, has anyone reading this ever tried to get back a letter they've just dropped in a public collection box? You can ask the postie as much as you like, but he or she will not give it back to you, even if you can prove that you wrote the damned thing.

No, the Postal Service will insist on delivering the item to the address on the envelope. The moment you entrust a letter to the postal service it is out of your control.

Nor can you phone the recipient and demand the return of your property unopened, for it is no longer the property of the sender, but is owned by the recipient. The physical object, the paper and ink, has been given by the sender to the recipient, and it is theirs to do with as they will.

The point is that we have to start from the position that a communication belongs to the recipient.

But the idea of breaking a confidence is not so much a legal issue as one of reasonable expectations and personal trust. A feeling of trust can be breached in all sorts of ways. But not surely by a person discussing a response they have received from some organisation in response to a query ?!

I think you covered the ground nicely.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:25:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: RE is NOT an organisation
Message:
... any more than F7 is an organization, any more than F6 or FV were organizations. All of the Forums we so blithely post on are put up by people who do the FA work, and people who pays the bills.

The only organization here or on RE is in all of the minds of those who perceive an organization. It's just people posting on bulletin boards provided by other people. The owners of the boards set up rules, sometimes with input from the posters. Some people like the rules. Some people don't. Thus when people start fighting these perceived organizations, the FAs either decide they've had enough and fold up the tent (such as FV), or take the flak and carry on.

Some folks left a cult and they still keep trying to create a new one. It ain't gonna happen here. Some folks still have a need to fight figures they perceive to be in authority or control.

I don't think my pointing this out is going to change things, but, whatever!

--f

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:53:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes it is
Message:
An organized group of people is an organization. Add rules, meeting place and membership, especially the selective kind, and it's even more of an organization. Add administrators with delegated power (like your FA's for instance), more so again.

Your psychoanalysis notwithstanding, the fact is some anyonmous FA's rejection letter to Steve is hardly personal.

Some folks left a cult and they still keep trying to create a new one. It ain't gonna happen here. Some folks still have a need to fight figures they perceive to be in authority or control.

Well, for Steve, Janet and whoever else you guys bumped over time, those FA's are just 'perceived' authority figures, they're the real thing. All I've heard you say about all of this seems to boil down to your wanting everyone to accomodate RE to the extent that, even if they're rejected as members, they'll still respect that club and do nothing to undermine whatever reputation it has (internally, at least) as a kindler, gentler reality than this forum. You've said absolutely nothing about the other concerns I raised. For example, what if Dettmers had taken the easy way out and just joined RE? For all I know there could be other Dettmers ruminating even as we speak over whether or not they want to finally speak out against the cult and its leader. Don't you think it's a loss to the rest of us, not to mention the myriad lurkers, including premies, if that person settled in on RE and not here? Can't you see that?

Or perhaps you can assure me that the forum does not get generally dissed as a wild and woolly -- unsafe -- place on RE. Or perhaps you can't see any of this because you're just too close to the situation.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 00:39:39 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's not as juicy as you think
Message:
Jim,

You are just SO SURE that there's all these PAMs telling stories that you'll never get to hear because they went over to RE and didn't come here! Folks are so deprived of the juicy posts--that's your fear
---
face it! It's not nearly as hot as your imagination. Not even close. You just can't stand not knowing--that's at the bottom of it. There's no big deal here Jim. Your speculation and imagination on this topic is wasting a lot of space on this Forum. First the War, now RE.

You made a big deal about Mike Finch. He doesn't post there any more than he posts here.

If you're so concerned about the topic of this Forum, why are you wasting your time on this???

There are no 'members' of RE. Just a bunch of folks with passwords that post on a Forum. And on this one, there's no passwords. Big whoop.

If a person will post on RE or not at all, better that they go there than go nowhere, Jim. Some people get up their courage to post here after posting on RE. Some people come to RE when F7 is particularly contentious, and then come back to F7 when they can handle it. Many of the folks on RE post here also.

You are not going to get every expremie out there to post on F7 and do things your way. You are not going to get every expremie who won't post here and thinks that F7 is a bit too rough for them to like it any better by badgering, needling and wheedling on this topic and banging your drum. I don't care who doesn't like RE. Let them trash it and pile on.

Honestly Jim, at least for me, you have too dang many questions, flurries of them, and they are usually asked in an intense prosecutorial tone. Most of us enjoy being cross-examined about as much as we like lying on an operating table or going to the dentists. I admire your energy, but sheesh!

You said:
You've said absolutely nothing about the other concerns I raised. For example, what if Dettmers had taken the easy way out and just joined RE? For all I know there could be other Dettmers ruminating even as we speak over whether or not they want to finally speak out against the cult and its leader. Don't you think it's a loss to the rest of us, not to mention the myriad lurkers, including premies, if that person settled in on RE and not here? Can't you see that?

Put your money where your mouth is and stay on topic here. I am sick of going back and forth on this, and I don't want to start a thread like you had with Mike Finch. Off my back Jim. Get over it for chrissakes. How many threads have you started related to this. Give it up.

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 00:54:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Let's be fair now
Message:
Jim,

You are just SO SURE that there's all these PAMs telling stories that you'll never get to hear because they went over to RE and didn't come here! Folks are so deprived of the juicy posts--that's your fear
---
face it! It's not nearly as hot as your imagination. Not even close. You just can't stand not knowing--that's at the bottom of it. There's no big deal here Jim. Your speculation and imagination on this topic is wasting a lot of space on this Forum. First the War, now RE.

You made a big deal about Mike Finch. He doesn't post there any more than he posts here.

If you're so concerned about the topic of this Forum, why are you wasting your time on this???

There are no 'members' of RE. Just a bunch of folks with passwords that post on a Forum. And on this one, there's no passwords. Big whoop.

If a person will post on RE or not at all, better that they go there than go nowhere, Jim. Some people get up there courage to post here after posting on RE. Some people come to RE when F7 is particularly contentious, and then come back to F7 when they can handle it. Many of the folks on RE post here also.

You are not going to get every expremie out there to post on F7 and do things your way. You are not going to get every expremie who won't post here and thinks that F7 is a bit too rough for them to like it any better with all by badering, needling and wheedling on this topic and banging your drum. I don't care who doesn't like RE. Let them trash it and pile on.

You said:
You've said absolutely nothing about the other concerns I raised. For example, what if Dettmers had taken the easy way out and just joined RE? For all I know there could be other Dettmers ruminating even as we speak over whether or not they want to finally speak out against the cult and its leader. Don't you think it's a loss to the rest of us, not to mention the myriad lurkers, including premies, if that person settled in on RE and not here? Can't you see that?

Put your money where your mouth is and stay on topic here. I am sick of going back and forth on this, and I don't want to start a thread like you had with Mike Finch. Off my back Jim. Get over it for chrissakes. How many threads have you started related to this. Give it up.

Francesca


---

1) I'm not SO SURE of anything. After all, how would I know? I'm merely saying it's possible and, if it isn't happening now, it may later.

2) First you quibbled over 'organization', now it's 'member'. Come now. If you have to apply and be accepted, you're a member.

3) You say there are folks that post there rather than no place at all. How do you know? And if people are saying that on RE it just proves my point in spades, by the way.

4) You really hate this topic, don't you? Tell me, don't people on RE talk about the forum regularly? So what's so bad about people on the forum talking about RE? Fran, there are substantive issues and there are procedural issues. This is an on-topic procedural issue.

5) By the way, what was so bad about my thread with Mike Finch? You don't think it important to clear the air once in a while. At first, Mike said that he was 'abused' when he came here. Then he went and got the posts from the archives and, upon looking at them again, conceded that he wasn't all that 'abused' after all. What? You don't think that's a good thing?

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:33:53 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: And neither is EPO - despite suffix
Message:
The suffix .org in domain names indicates 'non-profit', which EPO is - however, it is not, nor has ever been any kind of organization - with membership, etc. Elan Vital still doesn't get this, but I'm hoping that maybe ex-premies will.

BTW, good post, Francesca.

TC,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:42:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, obviously you don't
Message:
........publish your friends', lovers' and allies' emails against their wishes if you want to keep their trust but, as for other emails, well, all's fair.....as long as it has no legal, moral or social consequences.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:07:34 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Could this be right re email ethics?
Message:
jim, I too, use things others have told me orally and repeat them to others when I feel they are important enough to serve as an illustration f some point I am making, and I have two friends who have made it clear to me later that they never intended for me to make what they told me privately to be repeated to others without their knowing it. Si have also been surprised and chastened for doing this.

On the other hand, email IS mail, and mail is not supposed to be assumed to be shareable without permission from the writer--barring perhaps mass mailings done on a large scale. as yoda said, 'size matters not. whether its a small note or a long manuscript, if it was written from one private person to another, or from a boss to an employeee, I beleive the rule is regarding private conversations between individuals.

when the message is issued from an organization, however, I don't think the personal and confidential applies. esepcially when it's a rejection notice. I think the rejected has a right to make that news public if they so choose. there is no non-disclosure contract in place, no gag order, no posted conditions made known in advance, so in this case, I don't think the public revelation violated anything.

But then, I believe in the sunshine laws. I always felt that the more light a thing is exposed to, the more honest it is forced to be. And I think that's a good thing.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:40:15 (EDT)
From: suchami bananderbilt
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org/asm
To: Jim
Subject: dat doubt-maker: if ya hafta ask...
Message:
uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:47:30 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: suchami bananderbilt
Subject: Too zen for me but...
Message:
uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uh.....uh...lessee...hmmm...uh...duh....hmmm...uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....


---

I just wanted to see how you made the message box stretch out so long.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:43:50 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@fried_at_last.com
To: Pat:C)
Subject: To zen is human
Message:
I dunno, maybe it was me goldendoughnut cyber-stargate!

P+L,

PS r.e. peline elongation: fyi, dat's classified, secwet agent stuff - like me Aunt Thorax. but kin thoitenly make dat organ schwing, huh!... ja - it's Polka Time!!! ah, vun and a 2, oompa oompa oompa oompa... hahaha

http://www.clevelandstyle.com/phof_012.htm [r.e. weird al's dad]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:04:31 (EDT)
From: suchelectricalbanana
Email: bananas@laughoutlard.org
To: such
Subject: dat was zen, dis ist now
Message:
http://www.clevelandstyle.com/phof_012.htm

weird Al's dada
[ http://www.clevelandstyle.com/phof_012.htm ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 18:01:39 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Check out this site!
Message:
It's almost interesting:-)
[ GuruMaharajji.com ]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:02:57 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: maharajiwatch@yahoo.com
To: JHB
Subject: Another one to add to Maharaji Watch...
Message:
Thanks JHB, it's another site I can add to the Maharaji Watch Web directory.

Does anyone remember a few months ago, someone posted the URL to a website that had a black and white photo of Maharaji dressed up as Krishna, playing the flute? There was a photo of the webmaster, a woman, and some other women, they had all been ashram sisters together at one time. I didn't save the URL, does anyone still have it?

The Maharaji Watch Web Directory now has a link near the bottom of the front page, to a bravenet forum I've set up, for people to leave comments about the different websites, or to post replies that were rejected by the Maharaji websites that claim they want replies, but are only willing to print ones they agree with.

I'm going to add the ELK website to the directory soon, so any comments about ELK droppings are welcome, too. If anyone knows some other sites to I could add, let me know at maharajiwatch@yahoo.com.

Thanks

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:18:14 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: trust no one-not even yourself.
Message:
oh yeah--there's some real solid advice you can base your life on.
you trust no one, you go insane.you stop trusting yourself, you break down and go to pieces. maybe commit suicide. you don;t trust your eyes, ears, percetions, the people around you, your family, your government, your doctor, you end up either shaking in a corner in a daze, drooling and staring and unable to communicate, or you explode and go postal.

whoever put this site up is a jerk. someone who has never lived through mental illness, hospitalization, being betrayed by someone close to them. survived addiction, being sold out, cheated, or any other massive shattering of their world reality, and lived to walk the world knowing themselves again.

here, asshole: live my life for a year, and then come back and tell me this again.
you gotta trust yourself.

life is impossible without trust.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:36:10 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, look a bit deeper:)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:11:18 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org
To: janet
Subject: in gawd we tryst
Message:
er, lessee, maybe it's more like: in gawd we twist...

P+L,

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:00:43 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: re: dat's a site fer sore eyes
Message:
http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=gurumaharajji.com&SearchType=do
[ http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=gurumaharajji.com&SearchType=do ]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:32:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Now, who did that?
Message:
Be sure to check out the BELIEVE link. It is actually one of my favorite Jim posts.
[ Believe ]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:46:53 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Now, who did that?
Message:
Hi Pat,

Got your email. I'm sick with a bad cold and have been busy with leaf-peeping guests for a couple of weeks. I'm tired. The guests are all gone and so are most of the leaves. We've already had a little snow, yikes!

Pretty funny Jim post.

That love, you know? That inside within inside inside, outside no, inside yes. That love of saturug. Sat means perfect, u-rug means ''install it yourself carpeting.'' Perfect carpeting, yeah. He steps all over everyone.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:06:45 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Now, who did that?
Message:
Yes, houseguests can be draining. Sorry to hear about your cold. I've promised myself I will never have any more kids or houseguests until I have a mansion with separate wings for them and servants to wait on them. Thank god is cool and foggy along the coast. A few miles inland it's still in the 80s.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:50:42 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Catweasle, you forgot my question.
Message:
Hi Cat,

Down below, you said, 'I believe they are 'mistaken' about Jagdeo. That's just a crock. Get over to India yourself (if your game!)and you can search the place from top to bottom but you wont find JD. He isn't there and hasn't been there for a while.'

You seem to have information about the whereabouts of Jagdeo.

How do you know he isn't in India and hasn't been there for a while?

Do you know something about this, or were you just bullshitting?

I asked you about this below, but you didn't reply.

Anth who once believed in Santa.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:19:22 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: yes, what did you mean CW?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 16:16:53 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's Fundraising
Message:
Down below 'Mr Observation,' said the following:

As a money-making operation, fund-raising for propogation to ostensibly 'spread knowledge' has been a resounding success. But in terms of actually achieving a sustained, growing movement - m's ceaseless fundraising circus has been a collossal failure. Yea, with the eminently laudable goal of dispensing 'peace portals' to the masses, this has amounted to nothing less than a supreme on-going racket. Tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars has been raised for this goal over the past thirty years utilizing a variety of techniques and methods of persuasion with an ever-changing cast of characters. At the end of the day, the only thing that is growing is m's bank account.

Even when I was a premie back in the early 80s, one of the big DRIPS for me was that we raised millions of dollars for propagation, and the cult just kept shrinking, at least in the West. I recall raising thousands of dollars when Maharaji came to San Francisco one time, and hardly anyone was even interested in coming to follow-up programs, and maybe a couple of people eventually received knowledge who came to the program. [I mean, we sold flowers on the streets, raised all kinds of money from people, tens of thousands of dollars, and Maharaji didn't even stay overnight in San Francisco, he just flew back to Malibu.]

And then, the fundraising demands would come up again and again, and they never stopped, and it was all for Maharaji 'doing his work', which I never saw any results from, at least not in proportion to the huge sums we raised.

It got to the point where I refused to fundraise anymore, because, at that time, I thought the money was being wasted, not by or on Maharaji, but by people running Elan Vital. That was the only conclusion I could come to, since I still believed fervently in Maharaji and what he was offering to the world. It couldn't be Maharaji or knowledge that was the problem, it was just mismanagement at Elan Vital.

I remember around 1981, when I was CC in San Francisco, Maharaji was doing a 'tour' on the East Coast, and I was told by David Smith to raise money, in cash, from the premies in San Francisco, and fly to Baltimore with the money. I have no idea what the money was going towards -- I guess for the tour and for 'propagation,' but I bet most of it went for Maharaji's personal use.

At that time, we had just been through years and years of intense fundraising for the Boeing 707 plane, and the premies in San Francisco were by and large not well-heeled, many had kids and just scraping by, and were also broke from having to fly to Miami repeatedly for 'festivals' which occurred 3 or 4 times a year (Holi, Hans Jayanti, Guru Puja, etc., etc., )which was expensive. I just was incapable of doing it, and I felt really guilty that I wasn't surrendered enough to do what I was told by David Smith, Maharaji's agent for my devotion and surrender.

So, I lied to David Smith and I refused to ask the premies for money, but Smith had ordered me to go to Baltimore, so I didn't know how I was going to explain all this. Smith asked me for the money, and I lied, and said I had dropped all the cash into the donations box. One other time, somewhat later, I was asked to help raise money for yet ANOTHER luxury plane for Maharaji and I said I would, and then did nothing. I just wasn't able to do it anymore, because I never saw any results from the millions we had raised, except that Maharaji seemed to be happy in his lifestyle, and I just felt so guilty and disingenuous hitting the premies up for money all the time. As an ashram premie I had no money myself, but if I did, I might have given it. I just wasn't able to hit other people up for it.

My question is, do any premies these days question where all the money is going? I mean, propagation has been a failure, and yet millions and millions continue to be raised with no visible results. Does this cause problems for anyone? Is this ever discussed among the premies? I mean, premies aren't idiots; some of them are successful business people. Has this ever occurred to them, or been discussed? Does Yoram Weiss address it when he is hitting people up money for Maharaji?

I know one PWK who still, to some extent, practices knowledge and still recognizes Maharaji as his master, although he's a bit tenuous, but maybe that's just around me, a notorious ex-premie.

He told me that he doesn't contribute any money anymore, either to Elan Vital or Maharaji (but does go to programs sometimes), because he thinks the money is always wasted, not by Maharaji, but by the honchos around Maharaji. Since he thinks his donations are just wasted, he doesn't contribute anything, although I can tell he feels guilty about that. Obviously, because he isn't a big contributor, he never sits up front at programs.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:43:16 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maharaji's Fundraiding [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:51:55 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Almost no PWK get a global picture
Message:
They're asked to contribute:
$30 for their smartcard
$40 minimum monthly donation to support the 'free' video broadcasting system
$100 minimum donation to attend a 'free' program
Plus they get Visions catalogue to buy those beautiful 'gifts' for their relatives and friends
Plus they're invited to attend Yoram & friends' 'free' meetings where they're pressured to 'participate' and give $1000s to support m's 'free' tours and jets' updates
Plus they pay $6,000 to attend a seminar with Rawat once or twice a year
Plus they're invited to make a 'special gift' if they want to have a 1st or 2nd row seat at programs
Plus some are offered the possibility of owning a permanent residence on the divine land of Santyogashram where they'll never be allowed to stay without m's authorization, and only if he doesn't need their house for His special guests
etc etc I guess the list is endless, and EV is always short of money and has immense debts ....

How gullible can you get ?

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:29:26 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: P.S.
Message:
And my personal favorite.......the ev monthly mail-in envelopes have a special section where one can indicate a 'special' contribution of stocks and bonds (or some such) and bequething assests. Yes, folks, screw your family while you're alive and after you're dead. Don't take care of those near and dear to you, take care of the who-wants-to-be-a millionaire and his family and corporation, oops, I meant tax free organization, oops I meant non profit church.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:25:55 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Almost no PWK get a global picture
Message:
Ya, know I would much rather have paid up front for receiving the k techniques. Just like for Transcendental Meditation, which seemed like such a joke but hey, it was only $20. This on the otherhand, never stops. A person pays not only with their life via devotion, but the money thing never stops. Of course it's easy to see once one is outside the perimeters, but when it's all in the name of the 'lord' and 'k is so special it can't be bought' and then of course all those people wouldn't 'give it a chance' and want an instant refund. Still, the idea that this is free is one big joke.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 18:05:53 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Bingo! we have a winner
Message:
Ya, know I would much rather have paid up front for receiving the k techniques. Just like for Transcendental Meditation, which seemed like such a joke but hey, it was only $20. This on the otherhand, never stops. A person pays not only with their life via devotion, but the money thing never stops. Of course it's easy to see once one is outside the perimeters, but when it's all in the name of the 'lord' and 'k is so special it can't be bought' and then of course all those people wouldn't 'give it a chance' and want an instant refund. Still, the idea that this is free is one big joke.


---

yep, it's da ultimate con game.

promise em salvation -- Free, but keep the techniques secret and controlled, get em to believe in a livin' divine infallible Lard Massa in-cars-nate as absolutely fundamental to dat package, use mental reinforcement through vids, muzak, cult buzzwords and phrases, incultcated concepts, and keep that gwatitude + participation - spelled C-A-S-H - flowing into da coffers, where it is readily diverted through shell corp. scams for special projects and luxury toys, all serving and waiting on da Massa hand and foot. hohoho

when it comes to marketing/advertising spirituality, caveat emptor [let da buyer beware]: 'cause dere ain't no such ting as a Free launch. dat puppet-massa, dose strings, dose free beings suckered and seduced into dat circus barker's puppy-puppet show - like a reverse Pinocchio, going to da freak show and falling for the come-on raps, then going into a submissive trance, becoming a slave-puppy-puppet and forgetting one's identity as an individual unique human being, naturally created without any strings or umbilical cord attached to an incarnate puppet-Massa.

peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:39:29 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Fundraising
Message:
Yes, Joe it was in '81 that it became obvious that the money raised for propagation was not being used for that purpose. The juice had simply gone and what was left was a racket. That's when I wrote to rawat and told him that he was a conman.

However, I then felt guilty. Like Nick I worried about rotting veggies. Giving money even knowing that it was being wasted was my way of allaying my guilty conscience.

I still think that this is basically the way the ''fund-raising'' works. PWKs feel guilty about not bringing new people to M and K so they give money instead.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:57:56 (EDT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Fundraising
Message:
Joe

You refer back to the early 80's in your post, yet it made me think of just last years in my experience of m's world. As regional co-ordinator for the North East of Engalnd, I was aware that I was increasingly being used as a puppet voice for m and his acolytes. Time after time I see myself standing up at the end of a video, giving some p-re-determined message about the need for funds (usually, I would talk about the 'opportunity').

I remember distinctly in 2000 acting as EV's puppet in trying to encourage the premies to apply for their smart cards. I had been given a long script and the instruction was to learn it and deliver it as if it was 'coming from the heart'.

So, I did my bit, but half way through, the fraudulent nature of what I was doing came to the surface and I just laughed out loud and spilled the beans with the audience. This was the beginning of the end for me - cynicism was beginning to overtake naivete.

Following this, I received a promotion at work which entailed a significant increase in my time commitment to the job. I used this as my excuse for resigning from my service - I was too afraid to simply resign (rotting vegetables loomed large). What was fascinating, and this is the link with your post, Joe, is that a few weeks after I had resigned, I received a phone call which was aimed at getting me to join the group of 'serious financial donors'. The person who rang me was a friend of long standing. For years I had seen him sitting in the front 3 or 4 rows at m's programmes,aware that he was not overtly involved in m's work, yet I had never put 2 and 2 together. All suddenly made sense.

Fortunately, the spell had been broken and I wasn't in the slightest tempted.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:09:19 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Nick
Subject: Regional co-ordinator you say? (ot)
Message:
for the North-East?

If you're ever in the vicinity of Durham, fancy a pint?

(email above)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:15:00 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Hehe Nick
Message:
That's funny....Ev's idea of sincerity, fake from start to finish except you didn't reach the finish before cracking up.

It reminds me of the telesales racket. I tried to hack it with one of those jobs years ago, reading one of those miserable scripts while having to sound spontaneous. After a while it's soul crushing.

I don't know if you're aware of it but there seems to be an increase in telesales calls in the evening here in the UK. I feel quite sorry for the 'cheery' sounding suckers, especially when I cut into their spiel and tell them I don't take sales calls in the evening. I've probably ruined their evening.

Anyway, hope you're well and regards to your other half :) and hope the 'kids' are ok too.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:41:38 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Fundraising
Message:
One of the justifications was that the money we raised in the affluent west was used for propagation in poor countries such as in Africa.

John the gullible.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:02:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Fundraising
Message:
Yes, John,

I heard that ''Robin Hood'' spiel too. Maharaji once said that he gave the African premies (I think it was Africa) one of his very own VCRs or movie projectors--something like that. Then he complained that they weren't handling it to his standards, i.e., when he saw it, it had bumps and scratches on it, explaining that a gift from m is precious. Jeezum Crow, if he really wanted propagation to happen he could actually take the millions donated and buy the poor folks a hall! What a creep.

Anyway, during the period of 1981-1997 I was not involved with m at all (I went back in '97, then quit him). I was astounded to receive a phone call for money in the early 90s from a Vermont premie, a woman who was the coordinator here, who I had never met!

I was really pissed, even though at the time I still believed. The person actually asked for $50 to $100!!! I told her I was unable to donate (even though I could have).

That was a major subconscious drip for me. The money must have been for one of the more expensive items on Maharaji's wish list.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:29:58 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Fundraising
Message:
Coulda been for the Gulf Stream upgrade or the Amaroo fundraiser or the sinking coffers of EV. There were/are so many it's hard to keep 'em straight.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:35:58 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Virus alert (ot)
Message:
Got the following in my business mail from a trusted , reliable souce so thought I'd tell you guys, but hope it's not old out of date stuff, I got it today anyway. .................................

Never accept the negative until you have thoroughly explored the positive!
>WORST EVER VIRUS (CNN announced)
>
>PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE ON YOUR CONTACT LIST
>A new virus has just been discovered that has been classified by Microsoft
>as the most destructive ever! This virus was discovered yesterday afternoon
>by McAfee and no vaccine has yet been developed. This virus simply destroys
>Sector Zero from the hard disk, where vital information for its functioning
>are stored.
>This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself automatically to
>all contacts on your list with
>the title 'A Virtual Card for You.' As soon as the supposed virtual card is
>opened, the computer freezes so that the user has to reboot. When the
>ctrl+alt+del keys or the reset button are pressed, the virus destroys
>Sector Zero, thus permanently destroying the hard disk. Yesterday in just a
>few hours this virus caused panic in New York, according to news broadcast
>by CNN. This alert was received by an employee of Microsoft itself. So don't
>open any mails with subject: 'A Virtual Card for You.' As soon as you get
>the mail, delete it.
>Please pass this mail to all of your friends. Forward this to everyone in
>your address book.
>I would rather receive this 25 times than not at all.
>
>Also: Intel announced that a new and very destructive virus was discovered
>recently. If you receive an email called 'An Internet Flower For You,' do
>not open it. Delete it right away! This virus removes all dynamic link
>libraries (.dll files) from your computer. Your computer will not be able to
>boot up !!
>


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Get your FREE download of

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:48:49 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: It's a hoax
Message:
The clue is 'PLEASE SEND THIS TO EVERYONE ON YOUR CONTACT LIST'. When you receive one of these take a minute to check the internet (you know that big pile of computers out there), and you'll save having to annoy all your friends.

Here is Symantecs' entry on this:-

Virtual Card for You

Reported on: January 10, 2001
Last Updated on: April 19, 2001 at 09:50:38 AM PDT

The Virtual Card for You is a hoax that should be ignored. The following is the text that may be received as an email message:
Virus Alert VIRUS WARNING To ALL INTERNET USERS:

A new virus has just been discovered that has been classified by Microsoft (www.microsoft.com) and by McAfee (www.mcafee.com) as the most destructive ever!

This virus was discovered yesterday afternoon by McAfee and no vaccine has yet been developed. This virus simply destroys Sector Zero from the hard disk, where vital
information for its functioning are stored.

This virus acts in the following manner: It sends itself automatically to all contacts on your list with the title 'A Virtual Card for You'.

As soon as the supposed virtual card is opened, the computer freezes so that the user has to reboot. When the ctrl+alt+del keys or the reset button are pressed, the virus
destroys Sector Zero, thus permanently destroying the hard disk.

Please distribute this message to the greatest number of people possible. Yesterday in just a few hours this virus caused panic in New York, according to news broadcast
by CNN www.cnn.com). This alert was received by an employee of Microsoft itself.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:58:22 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: sorry to be so annoying :)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:22:12 (EDT)
From: Anne Thracks
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Not at all! (NT)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:41:50 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Anne Thracks
Subject: hey, it's me Aunt Thorax! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:31:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: All
Subject: International human rights
Message:
Good points Mike!
There is something called the 'European Convention on Human Rights'. In most countries in Europe this law is superior to the countries own laws: I think most exes are not aware of these laws at all. Many other countries have implemented this laws in their own constitutions:
I post following articles from these laws:
ARTICLE 3
No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment
ARTICLE 6
1.In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgement shall be pronounced publicly by the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interest of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
2.Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
3.Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
(b) to have adequate time and the facilities for the preparation of his defence;
(c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
(d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
(e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.
ARTICLE 9
1.Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
2.Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others
ARTICLE 10
1.Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information an ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2.The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
.

ARTICLE 8
1.Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. (Do you read me Hamzden?)
ARTICLE 17
Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction on any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.

You ask Mike, and this is my perspective:
1) To bring M down; to finish his work as a guru, at least in the West.
Me: Why should this be an objective? Some people like some don’t. Why interfere with the human rights or the American constitution to chose whatever religion for what ever reason people have?
2) To put in the public domain private facts about M, his close advisors, and K.
Me:Why use untruthful methods in doing so and breaking both international and national laws?
3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).
Me: PWKs have not asked for your opinion. And if you do that, why jump over basic principles and obligations of human international rights
4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.
Me Fine, but is it not better to perform this task in a private sphere like RE?
5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.
Me: Every case has 2 sides: If there are any crimes committed, charge the people responsible. Why sit like a bunch of cowards behind a computer, (anon or not) and come with biased (and brainwashed truths) and skip the responsibility to follow the obligations in the freedom of speech?
6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.
Me: If that is the case, this could be done at a private forum, not at a forum open to anyone but the members. Or it could be done where people have to use their own name posting.
7) Forum-junkie; no real reason other than withdrawal symptoms if you don't visit the Forum for a few days. Question: when you turn your computer on, what is the first thing you do? If you go to this Forum then you are probably in this category.
Me: I think most persons posting here, are Forum junkies. Rather than encouraging people to post, (I don’t think it is healthy) they should encourage each other’s to join some kind of organisation like AA to free oneself from unhealthy addiction.

Just my 2 cents
Bjørn the naughty boy who had an agreement with my wife not to post anymore, but made a compromise to post now and then but not take part in the discussions

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:31:36 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: your tuppence.
Message:
Just my 2 cents
Bjørn the naughty boy who had an agreement with my wife not to post anymore, but made a compromise to post now and then but not take part in the discussions

You probably won't mind if no one bothers to make change for you then.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:13:10 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: bull
Message:
})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})})

make that bulls.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:10:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: ***Bjorn supports RE!*** (LOL!!!) JHB?
Message:
4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.
Me Fine, but is it not better to perform this task in a private sphere like RE?

JHB,

This might be that little extra something you need for your new blurb on the Recent Exes Fourm. An endorsement from Bjorn, international human rights activist.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:13:25 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, did you like the new blurb?
Message:
I asked for comments but none have been forthcoming yet:-)

John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:02:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: On further thought, CANCEL the link
Message:
John,

Thinking about this further, I think you should cancel the link to Recent Exes altogether. If these guys want to have a private, secret club, one in which even membership itself is a privileged confidence and one in which none of the rest of us have any idea about, why should EPO be advertising it at all? What are you advertising, John? Have you ever been there? Do you even know? You say it's not just for recent exes. How do you know it's really for recent exes at all? And if it is, how is it for recent exes? It obviously doesn't admit them all.

No, I think that if these guys want to have their private club, fine, let them really do it in private. Why should EPO be in any way endorsing or referring to it? It's obvious that the RE members don't like even being discussed here, the less said the better. So why the link? To encourage people to apply ... to what?

Imagine this was a party or something. People show up, mill around, congregate here and there, but there's this one room you can't get into unless you're invited. You can ask for an invitation but you don't even know who you're asking. They just want you to show a little leg, as it were, and if they like you, fine. The one thing we know about what happens in that room is that it's confidential. No one coming out of the room, say to go to the bathroom or kitchen, is supposed to say anything of what happens there. It's private. For how long? Forever. Are there people in there that never go elsewhere, that others in the party haven't even met? Don't ask, it's none of your business. The room's not for the curious either. You have to know that you want to join by ....... and here's the problem: you have to know that you want to join because it's advertised in the main party as a place for new people. It's called the New Partygoers Room. Only problem is it's not at all just for new partygoers and not all new partygoers get in.

I'd say that would suck.

If these guys want to do their private thing, fine, let them. But don't link to it as if it's some sort of natural stepping stone for new people, for recent exes. It's not, not by a long shot. Indeed, some might argue that going private and confidential is actually detrimental to one's breaking out of the cult in some respects. Reasonable people might differ on that one.

None of the other places EPO links to are private and highly secretive. This link is particularly troublesome because it's targetted at the very people who might be interested in reading the links and figuring out what to do, where to go -- recent exes.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 18:31:06 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm also thinking about this
Message:
Jim,

I am discussing the issue with the RE FA, and other concerned members. I am waiting to be convinced that the prominence given to RE on EPO is justified. If I am convinced, then I will state my reasons on this forum. If I am not convinced than I will still advertise RE on the links page on EPO with little editorial comment. The process of convincing me will take at least a month.

If you want to debate this with me in the meantime, please email me, but I can't see what can be gained by continuing to raise the subject here.

John.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:18:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, John ....but
Message:
Jim,

I am discussing the issue with the RE FA, and other concerned members. I am waiting to be convinced that the prominence given to RE on EPO is justified. If I am convinced, then I will state my reasons on this forum. If I am not convinced than I will still advertise RE on the links page on EPO with little editorial comment. The process of convincing me will take at least a month.

If you want to debate this with me in the meantime, please email me, but I can't see what can be gained by continuing to raise the subject here.

John.


---

John,

In a sense I'd say we're all 'concerned members' and that's why I raise the issue here. It's your call, of course, but I can't imagine why you wouldn't want general feedback, either for the value of various opinions in their own right or simply as a means to gauge of their popularity. I don't have any particular plan to keep talking about RE here but I also don't feel even the slightest compulsion to not talk about it either. Debating the issue with you might be fine but its' not the same as discussing it, or debating it, openly with others too.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 03:00:29 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Of course you are free to debate
Message:
What I was trying to say is that the only possible concrete change in the status quo (apart from RE being closed or changing to not password protected) will not happen for at least a month, but by all means I'll listen to any feedback.

The problem, which I'm sure you're aware of, is that RE members know what it's about but can't give any examples because of their confidentiality rule, and non-members can't know what they discuss because of the members only rule so we're all left with our opinions - members saying it has value, the rest of us not knowing but speculating. So all that's left as far as I can see is how much prominence is given to RE on EPO.

John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:13:47 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Very convincing reasoning Jim [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:20:02 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: At the risk of stirring the s..t, I agree
Message:
It is not open to all recent exes and it appears to have as many oldtimers as newbies. Now, if it were renamed to reflect it's real purpose (such as Expremie Password protected site - a private club for inner children) that would be fine.

Meantime, giving it prominence on EPO makes it look like it's an official debriefing, rehab or detox thingy through which one has to pass before being allowed on the adult forum. But it's only a private kaffee-klatsch. That's fine but the current name does not reflect that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:31:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: That's it exactly!
Message:
... giving it prominence on EPO makes it look like it's an official debriefing, rehab or detox thingy through which one has to pass before being allowed on the adult forum. But it's only a private kaffee-klatsch.

What worries me is the possibility that new people might apply there simply because it seems the thing to do for new people. Once on RE I have no doubt whatsoever that they will hear one bad thing after another about this forum. Thus, comfortably settled in, they'll stay and that's that. The secret ex-premie forum. Great.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:03:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Jim-free Forum
Message:
I suggested to Zelda that it should be called that.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:33:59 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yeah John, well done. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:19:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes, but this would make it better
Message:
John,

Yes, it was good. But come on, John, can't you just put this up for a few days or something? Too funny!

No, seriously, it was good. I meant to say something.

--still laughing!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:03:11 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Agree-Great blurb for RE Thought provoking!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:33:04 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: could you be more nauseating?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:12:10 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: nauseating?=disgraceful, discusting?
Message:
Probably, and maybe, depending on which perspective.
John Brauns told me, 'Doubts are good' Is it OK to express ones doubts even if they don't fit your perspective?

But blame the right people who made these laws. In my country, these laws if in conflict with national laws are superiour. Probably even Australia have some similar laws, so you you might blame the members of your parliament?

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 00:16:55 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: your wife was right
Message:
you should listen to her
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:05:43 (EDT)
From: Sven
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: your daddi was right
Message:
you should listen to him
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:07:40 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sven
Subject: BASTARD! ~) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:23:43 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Sven
Subject: another enlightened premie
Message:
it gets boring more than anything. Like dull toxic sludge that you have to keep wiping away every now and then, it sort of oozes from certain cult members, like they excrete it.

clean you act up bore

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:55:09 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Sven
Subject: JHB -please sort this scum
Message:
People like you give premies a REALLY bad name
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I'm not FA here
Message:
Ham,

Gerry is the FA here. It's his call, but I agree this guy appears to have lost all humanity.

John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:49:42 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sven
Subject: ..and you are scum, Sven [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:30:33 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sven
Subject: FA: Cyberstalker alert
Message:
Please make a note of this poster's IP#.

This could also qualify as harassment of Abi by the cult.

If it's meant to be a joke - it is not funny and stinks of creepiness and manipulation.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 06:54:01 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: FA: Cyberstalker alert
Message:
Hi Pat: Just one question:
If person A and person B send the same content in a message, except person A is a bit more harrassing, why is only person B the one who is accused of cyberstalking?

Bjørn just wondering, and who doesn't like the content of neither person A or B

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:36:05 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: I'll reply to that
Message:
Person A(bi) has an unpleasant history with person B(jorn) because person B spent a long time making unpleasant requests for details of the sexual abuse that person A went through when a member of person B's cult. Person A finds many of person Bs posts nauseating and self-congratulatory nonesense because of that and also because of the general tone and content of person B's posts which are irritating and facile. Person A thinks that person B should indeed listen to his wise wife and refrain from posting. When person B then effectively defends the vile comment of a fellow cult member directed at person A which mocks the sexual abuse she experienced as a child and the subsequent way his cult delt with it, person A feelings like telling person B to...
(use what's left of your imagination person B)
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 09:08:17 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Your reply
Message:
Imaginary things are imaginary.
I did not refer to me as B but to a person who calls himself Sven. I have not defended person B (Sven). Actually I did write I did not like his comments. I accept that you find my posts 'nauseating and self-congratulatory nonesense', (doesnt mean I totally agree) But dont tell things that is not the truth. And I have a hard time to understand that posting extracts of laws of International human rights, is 'discusting'? But I have to admit there are lots of stuff I dont understand.
Just to mention it, every story has 2 sides. Maybe I or someone else will feel an urge to tell the other side of a story. Who knows?
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 10:04:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Here's your change.
Message:
And I have a hard time to understand that posting extracts of laws of International human rights, is 'discusting'? But I have to admit there are lots of stuff I dont understand.

Like the fact that Abi was almost certainly *not* referring to quotations of the 'laws' on human rights (it's actually a declaration), but rather to your editorial comments?

Just to mention it, every story has 2 sides. Maybe I or someone else will feel an urge to tell the other side of a story. Who knows?

Sometimes the two sides are appropriately labeled 'wrong' and 'right.'

You ask Mike, and this is my perspective:
1) To bring M down; to finish his work as a guru, at least in the West.
Me: Why should this be an objective? Some people like some don’t. Why interfere with the human rights or the American constitution to chose whatever religion for what ever reason people have?

No one is interfering with the constitution here, nitwit. Your point is completely invalid, or in straightforward terms *wrong*.

2) To put in the public domain private facts about M, his close advisors, and K.
Me:Why use untruthful methods in doing so and breaking both international and national laws?

I'm afraid you've failed to demonstrate even the slightest degree of 'untruthfulness' in the allegations. In fact, if this *were* to go to court (world or otherwise) we'd undoubtedly find that we've only seen the tip of the iceberg. Furthermore, many of the allegations have already been verified (albeit left-handedly) by Elan Vital.

3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).
Me: PWKs have not asked for your opinion. And if you do that, why jump over basic principles and obligations of human international rights

The most charitable statement one could make about this 'interpretation' of the international declaration on human rights is that it's disgustingly ignorant and bigoted, not to mention downright dangerous. Allegations concerning Maharaji's behavior and that of his associates are as true as those made about Saddam Hussein, so by implication if the former are 'violations' of Maharaji's 'human rights' so must be the latter. Yeah, I'd call that disgusting... even vile.

4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.

Me Fine, but is it not better to perform this task in a private sphere like RE?

No, not really. But that's apparently debatable, and we're debating it. As a general rule *clarity* requires challenging closely held beliefs, not reinforcing or protecting them.

5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.
Me: Every case has 2 sides: If there are any crimes committed, charge the people responsible. Why sit like a bunch of cowards behind a computer, (anon or not) and come with biased (and brainwashed truths) and skip the responsibility to follow the obligations in the freedom of speech?

I'd suggest that Abi has a right, after that complete misrepresentation of our, and her, involvement here, to refer to you as disgusting. I'm pretty disgusted myself... but recognize it may not be appropriate to see you as anything other than brain damaged. But I wonder if, after all, it might still be possible to charge Maharaji with murder, or at least vehicular manslaughter and lieing under oath, in the case of the Indian cyclist. We certainly have eyewitness testimony to offer. The only trick would be convincing the slob to go back to India to stand trial, since the international tribunal probably has better things to do. There may also be a statute of limitations involved. In either case there's nothing invalid about making the accusations or presenting the evidence on this forum since we're simply interested in providing information not seeking a prison term for the offender. You're welcome to present counter evidence, if you can find any.

6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.
Me: If that is the case, this could be done at a private forum, not at a forum open to anyone but the members. Or it could be done where people have to use their own name posting.

It could, but doesn't have to. Clearly posting under a real name, rather than a pseudonym carries a good deal more weight, and people here have already pointed that out. Most humans are capable of making those kinds of judgments themselves, contrary to your apparent belief.

7) Forum-junkie; no real reason other than withdrawal symptoms if you don't visit the Forum for a few days. Question: when you turn your computer on, what is the first thing you do? If you go to this Forum then you are probably in this category.

Me: I think most persons posting here, are Forum junkies. Rather than encouraging people to post, (I don’t think it is healthy) they should encourage each other’s to join some kind of organisation like AA to free oneself from unhealthy addiction.

Pot. Kettle. Black. 'Nuff said.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:45:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Great post, Scott
Message:
Wading into Bjorn land takes dedication. It's like feeding antibiotics to your cat. Okay, maybe not, but you still feel like washing your hands after.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:54:03 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LoL Jim [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:15:41 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A Correction, Jim....
Message:
Wading into Bjorn land takes dedication. It's like feeding antibiotics to your cat.

It's more like giving your cat an enema. Bjorn's a first class pig, whoring for his Lord. He's just a lascivious lurker who finally has to relieve his slightly tumescent dick by jerking off on this forum, and he's one super sick fuck.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:02:28 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Well Scott, I disagree with you
Message:
butI see no reason to discuss the things you state. Disagreements happen in real life. No need to use dirty words. And I humbly state I dont know the truth.
My main point was to point to the fact that none seems to know this convention, which originally was a declaration and has been sanctioned and become a convention and is implemented as standards for laws in europe. However they are not criminal laws, but usually the parts of it are implemented in the criminal laws. Declarations are more like suggestions and I am discussing with some people if when a country makes and signs a declaration, is the country responsible when none of the points in the declaration is fulfilled. One declaration that about every country in UN has signed, is about the 'human rights for victims of violence and abuse of power' It is a fact that hardly no country have fulfilled or implemented this declaration from 86, in spite the fact that UN several times have sent manuals for the implementation of these points. Such a declaration should give rights to people like Abi (or me), but the countries will no implement this declaration which was meant to be the Magna carta of victims of crimes. (see also my post below) I find that a shame. I am considering in fact to sue my government for breaking international human rights and to question if there is any responsibility for a country to make and sign a declaration, when they first translate the declaration wrong, and then do not follow any of the points in the declaration. Realisticly I will not 'win'. But it would be for the benefit of victims is someone took upun themself the burden to do so.
Anyway, truthfulness, honesty, fairness, respect is important I think.

And just to mention it; if a case with exes was brought to court, the exes would bear the burden to prove the allogations or statements made are true. And by the way, at LG, i proved some untruthfulmnesses, one PWK mailed me and said it was exellent work but some exes said it was no proof. So not surpisingly perspectives differ.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:27:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Bjorn states: ''I humbly state...''
Message:
All I can say is that this is slimier than Uriah Heep. It gives me the creeps. Almost better than anything Dickens ever wrote. It makes me feel as dirty as Agnes and as angry as David Copperfield.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:26:30 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: ...Because, you insensitive jerk
Message:
Person A ...was referring to your wifes advice to quit posting on the forum. You yourself, said FIRST that you weren't going to post again because your wife asked you not to...then when you did post, you said you'd just post the one post but not reply.

Person B, referring to Abi's childhood rape experiences said she should follow her spineless , cultist father and put that fucking 'master' of yours above his daughters traumatic plight.

If you can't see the difference in OFFENCE , then you really are a brain-dead cult apologist .....now why don't you show some integrity and fuck off instead of abusing Gerrys offer ie to post one post, have your say, then fuck off.

Whatever you do, don't reply to me with your twisted reasoning ....

-Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 09:21:52 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Facts, Dermot
Message:
I posted a post regarding International human rights. Some people found that not OK. Fine for me.
I wrote my wife said to me it is OK to post now and then, but not to partake in disuscions. But I am a 'naugthy boy'.
A asks me to folow the advice of my wife.
B asks A to follow the advice of her father. Sounds pretty similar to me.
Gerry offered me to post one post once, later he said it was Ok for me to post. (Slightlty difference to what you say:) So one way not keep me from posting is to stick to the truth.
Another one is to take away my freedom to express myself.
Third way is to make me realize how stupid it is to post here.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:40:32 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: A does not equal B
Message:
it's a basic logic.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 10:23:28 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Empiricism in practical perspective.
Message:
I wrote my wife said to me it is OK to post now and then, but not to partake in disuscions. But I am a 'naugthy boy'.
A asks me to folow the advice of my wife.
B asks A to follow the advice of her father. Sounds pretty similar to me.

So, in precisely what sense is Abi a 'naughty girl?'

So one way not keep me from posting is to stick to the truth.

Tried that. Doesn't help, but we'll keep trying.

Another one is to take away my freedom to express myself.

Why would we do that, you put on such a good show?

Third way is to make me realize how stupid it is to post here.

That, apparently, is beyond the realm of possibility.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:27:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Nothing is worse than a dullard on the law
Message:
Bjorn,

Nothing is worse than hearing a dullard like you go on about the law. Really, Bjorn, it's bad. It's like there's a thick, greasy film on the pan or something.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:59:40 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim the great has spoken
Message:
but in fact the document I recently made for a hearing in the parliament, I emailed to the legal professor who had written the original hearing document about this. He told me, that some of my intrepretations of laws did not really hold waater, but he found my views very interesting and useful for the lawmakers and the politicians. (actually he was the one that told me that the european convention of human rights which also are printed in the norewegian in whole, is superiour to our national laws. But, he also said, that one chapter, where I really ridiculed the supreme court, and even proved some kind of senility, because the person managed to contradict himself 3 times in one paragraph, he found very useful. (If you ever think I ridiculed anyone at the exes forum, you should have read this). He also stated that he would use some of my perspectives in his work!
BTW, re article 6, in my country there are hardly any rights for the victims of crimes, stated in the law or in the practice of law. Being almost a total illiterate in legal stuff (I admit so) I find that this article gives also some rights even to the victims. You as a lawyer, what is your professional opinion about the first sentence in this article? Does it or doesn't it include even the victims? And just to mention this, my document (stated above) is a fight to improve the rights for people who are victims of crimes!!

To be or not to be (thin or thick) that is the question
Bjørn

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:18:43 (EDT)
From: Mr. Observation
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Jim the great has spoken
Message:
Bjorn to be mild:

Jim Heller is a criminal lawyer not one who specializes in international human rights law. As such he is qualified to defend or prosecute any one who commits a supposed breach of Canadian criminal law, such as murder, fraud, etc., and defend an individual if his/her rights have been abrogated concerning the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which is an addendum to the Canadian Constitution.

Ask your 'legal professor' where the European Convention on Human Rights sits vis-a-vis the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights - are there European human rights not included in the UN bill? Just curious.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:21:02 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: BTW Jim
Message:
Just to make no doubts; Most countries in Europe, (probably including Latvia) have this convention in transated form in full text printed in their own law books. (at least it is so in Scandinavian countries) I think it even have been sanctioned by the nations belonging to UN, Think it was originally made by a treaty in the UN. You may see the law, in english version at :http://www.hrcr.org/docs/Eur_Convention/euroconv2.html
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:31:34 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: And Jim a question to the big lawyer
Message:
Imagine if a person commits a crime on the internet, and there is actually precedence that the same laws aply at the web as 'on land', does a person have to go to the police in the country where he lives, in the country where the offender lives or in the country where for instance the person who owns the web site lives to report the crime? So where is the crime commited? Is the person only responsible for the laws in the country he lives, in the countries the crimes have been commited or what do you think. Honestly I don't know.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:09:05 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: And Jim a question to the big lawyer
Message:
Bjorn, it's considered impolite to ask for free advice from a professional person who makes his living advising people in matters of law. I suggest you ask a local lawyer, OK?

Also, I invited you here to post here once only, to express your opinion on the 'Pam' post. Don't get too cozy.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 16:12:23 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: And Jim a question to the big lawyer
Message:
Gerry I aggree, but it is not my concern, I am not going to report any one so there is no need for me to ask. But I must admit, I have been thinking about legal complications on the net. I think the issue is of importance, not only at EPO but also at other places.

My short term memory maybe is weak, but I think (if I uderstood you corectly), when I at EPO asked for your permission to post here, that you gave that permission with no limits.

But you will not find me to be a regular poster due to a promise to my wife who absolutely dont like me to post here at all. But I will try my best to be polite. OK?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:32:26 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Sorry my mistake this should be
Message:
under the tread of Mike below:
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:57:49 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Bjorns 'document for parliament'
Message:
Having English as a second language does not hide the simpleton.

It seems Bjorn is HOPING to imply that he has some credibility what with his
' document I recently made for a hearing in the parliament'

I t was probably a public submission to a hearing committe and any tom dick or bjorn can write one of those and they HAVE to be read by the committee- which can be made up of professionals including professors.

The committee MUST read every Human Rights list which is bent to the shape of an addlehead. A persistant addlehead will press for comment from committe members and of course they would make some positive comment .

day job ???

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 07:09:24 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: My'document for parliament'
Message:
True Zelda regarding the hearing. But due to the things I expose in my document, according to the research I have done, I definitely think some people will scratch their heads. But actually one person said this was the best she ever read about this issue, another person said it was an extremely important document, and the professor said he would use some of it in hois furhter work (actually he is the advisor for the governement in legal questions)

I personally dont think my document is that important, but to get these kind of feedbacks is not to bad for a sipleton. (who by the way is even the most stupid person Jim ever met, and according to exes is extremely unintelligent).- Maybe there is a leakage of clarity when I try to communicate in english.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 08:41:39 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: why go on and on and on
Message:
about the things you do? Why all the constant self-promotion? Have you lost all sense of dignity that you have to resort to blowing your trumpet in a forum which is dedicated to deconstructing the very cult you belong to?
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 09:49:48 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Justice is important
Message:
Yesterday there was a story in my newspaper about a girl who had been gang raped for 12 hours. Her testimony was not open for the public but the girl was questioned for 7 hours about the crime. The newapaper questioned will the court doubt her story. All the offenders pleaded innocent.That is my point: In the practice of law at least in my country, there is an unwriten law that says the doubt should benefit the offenders. Similar counsciousness that the benefit of doubt should be for the good of the victims are totally absent. Like judges in my country say; 'It is better to let 10 guilty persons go free, than to judge one person that is in fact innocent.' I disagree with this. In my country there are about 15000 people 'killed by justice' (or whatever you would call it in english) where the victims in the court experience again to be the victims - i.e. their offenders walks free and the court, police the prosecutors don't believe the story of the victims. This is a problem and I have engaged my self in this issue.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:34:55 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Justice is important
Message:
There are many social issues which I think are problems and which I am engaged in as I am sure many of the ex-premies who post do. But most of them don't go on and on and on about their good work in order to promote themselves as saints.

And by the way, if you are so concerd about women getting raped why don't you ask Rawat about his mahatmas. I know the sister of a premie who was raped so brutally that she went mad afterwards and carved a circle into her hed signifiying her 'marriage' to Rawat. In my opinion what gives you away is that while you go on about your good deeds and your defense of victims (and your own position as victim) you seem to have very little social conscience or compassion for the many people here who has really suffered from the cult you are involved in. Instead, you call them liars!

oh, why do I bother

I just wish you'd listen to your wife and stay away. Really.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 10:16:39 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: You sound conflicted...
Message:
to me. Anyway, there seem to be jurisdictional and statute of limitation problems involved with prosecution of the offender, not problems of sufficient evidence. One way to sort this out would be to have Jagdeo sue for defamation or something, and then sort out the truth from falsehood in a court. Yeah, like that's gonna happen...

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:20:05 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Conflicted or not...,
Message:
I( think these things are important issues. Crime in my country (where the laws are very liberal for the criminal - unlike in the US) the bill for the crimes is about 100 billions a year. (equals 50 kg rice to 1 billion persons a year). The suffering of the victims cannot be calculated. There is an rapid growth of crimes.
Thing might be discussed, even without glasses of exes or PWKs. (ooops I forgot I am in your eyes really stupid)
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:16:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: trite, arrogant and thick as a brick
Message:
Bjorn,

You say that you're an important rights activist in Norway but I can't imagine that people can even listen to you without letting their attention wander immediately. Everything you say is either trite or wrong. Here anyway.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 11:37:24 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: a tip
Message:
why not join a discussion list or forum where people are actually invested in discussing these issues

BYE

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