Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 15, 2001 To: Oct 22, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Mike Finch -:- This Forum's Agenda -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:32:33 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Agenda???? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 20:45:18 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Secrecy vs openness and honesty, Joe -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:39:19 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- GREAT post Joe! -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:37:54 (EDT)
__ Nick -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:29:04 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM*** Nick! [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:41:36 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Terrific post Nick, thanks. NT -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 20:51:45 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- And aNOTHer great post! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:37:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Yes, I want more, Nick! [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:41:26 (EDT)
__ Nick -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:04:48 (EDT)
__ __ Moley -:- Spot on Nick (OT) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:18:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Yea! Spot on Nick +) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 21:34:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Re: Yea! Spot on Nick +) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 22:33:57 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:59:38 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- My agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:11:48 (EDT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- dat roly-poly concept-maker = da real doubt-maker -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 16:14:24 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- I never tire of hearing truth, Dermot -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:14:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Yeah Pat -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:40:46 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:03:59 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 21:29:21 (EDT)
__ __ Nottingham Mole -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:31:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, NM, well said -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:31:57 (EDT)
__ __ Nottingham Mole -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:22:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ NM -:- Ignore this - posted earlier in error -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:33:40 (EDT)
__ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:02:40 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: This Forum's Agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:22:36 (EDT)
__ __ Mike Finch -:- No Aplogies needed -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:43:41 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- 7) Forum-junkie -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:19:23 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- can we establish a FMG -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 04:46:06 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Yes Mike and a whole lot more -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 00:10:55 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- I agree with everything you said, Deb, except -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:32:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I agree with everything you said -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:23:23 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- 3, 4 and 6 here Mike [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:53:47 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- My Agenda -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:48:45 (EDT)
__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: My Agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:19:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Controlling Agendas -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:13:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Peg -:- Re: Controlling Agendas -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:42:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Lively discussions on AG -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:49:51 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- part of our am agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 00:14:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ berni -:- Re: This forum's agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 06:39:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: This forum's agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:06:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: This forum's agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:40:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: This forum's agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:23:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: This forum's agenda -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:21:21 (EDT)

JHB -:- Forum Links on EPO -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 19:41:06 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Re: Forum Links on EPO -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:11:01 (EDT)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Forum Links on EPO -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:02:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Peg -:- to Vicki -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 23:28:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: to Vicki -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:44:19 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- The debate continues -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:13:30 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Peg, in the US pissed means -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:23:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Thanks Pat...I mean tipsy1 -:- Peg, in the US pissed means [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 18:22:21 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Forum Links on EPO -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:10:29 (EDT)
__ OK -:- Re: Forum Links on EPO -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:16:36 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- From LG: SC's theory about ''Pam'' -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:57:36 (EDT)
__ CW -:- Re: From LG: SC's theory about ''Pam'' -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 18:19:31 (EDT)
__ __ Faith Harper -:- Re: From LG: SC's theory about ''Pam'' -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:22:56 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- Lesjohfaith at checkpoint charlie -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 19:58:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Lesjohfaith at checkpoint charlie -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 20:36:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- You're not always right, Cat -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:38:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Wot, me worry? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:22:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SuCh -:- +soma da players n der raps r make believe,2 -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:57:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Sensational Such! -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 02:03:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sorry, SC -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 18:46:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Pranam, oh Mahatma SC Ji -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:25:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Bless you my brother Premiji -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:51:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Bless me father for I have sinned -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:04:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- You are free to go my son -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 02:40:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You are free to go my son -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:54:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: You are free to go my son -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:37:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Bless me father for I have sinned -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:35:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Deborah -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:35:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Bless me father for I have sinned -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:07:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Secrets, lies and videotapes -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:41:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Secrets, lies and videotapes -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:45:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The 13 yo Hindu inherited the scam -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:16:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: The 13 yo Hindu inherited the scam -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:52:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Gurujism 101 -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:29:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Gurujism 101 -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:58:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Know something that we don't, Katie? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:35:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Know something that we don't, Katie? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:00:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Know something that we don't, Katie? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:19:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Know something that we don't, Katie? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:34:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Here you go again -:- telling the universe what I think -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:29:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I don't even know who you are - good grief! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 18:40:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dear gullible ones.. -:- PAM is... -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 02:12:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Hm, I think an apology is in order -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:48:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well said, Lesley...kudos to you (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:42:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a fantastic comeback! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:16:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- thanks Jim, no bats in my rafters! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:26:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Me use a PC? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:34:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: PAM is... -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 02:34:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Is your consideration misplaced? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 02:53:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Is your consideration misplaced? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:33:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Try fishing -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:02:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I'll take the high road with Vicki -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:49:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Screw that! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:26:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Screw that! Okay! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:59:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Screw that! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:04:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Looks more like the Gutter -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:10:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***CW's got a blurb too*** (JHB?) -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:31:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Looks more like the Gutter -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:21:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Is keeping quiet the 'high road' -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 04:22:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Is keeping quiet the 'high road'? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:26:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- If Marolyn told all that would be the high road -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:08:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Glad to see clarity returning Mr Consome -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:22:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- David, twice after the CAC attack -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:17:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- I'm sorry Pat, it was childish and cruel -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:31:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Are we in a trust-building phase? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:16:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Are we in a trust-building phase? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 19:33:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If that's the case he owes Abi an apology -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:06:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: If that's the case he owes Abi an apology -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 04:01:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Apology gratefully accepted -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:50:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatD -:- Spudpeelers and guest greeters -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 21:03:23 (EDT)

How much do I need to contribute -:- to become a Visions sponsor? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 13:59:45 (EDT)
__ Can I change -:- my sponsorship amount? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:04:17 (EDT)
__ __ Don't my contributions to E.V. -:- cover the broadcast and materials projects? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:13:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Why is my support still needed -:- if access to broadcasts is now free? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:18:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ May I give to both -:- the EV and Visions projects??? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:21:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ex-Pam -:- Can you supply facts? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:20:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yoram Weiss -:- Yes -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:27:56 (EDT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- Re: my sponsorship amount???? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:10:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tim Gallstones -:- The Inner Game of Cult Scamming -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 15:05:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Your Book Editor -:- Re: The Inner Game of Cult Scamming -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 18:01:40 (EDT)

Jim -:- What if Dettmers had joined RE? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 13:16:35 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Re: What if Dettmers had joined RE? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 16:17:51 (EDT)
__ __ Mike Finch -:- Your questions -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:32:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Your experiences! -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:50:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Your experiences! -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:46:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Your experiences! -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:57:37 (EDT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Re: What if Dettmers had joined RE? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 17:12:13 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Recent Exes Forum -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:41:30 (EDT)
__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Recent Exes Forum -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:29:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Some ridiculous things you've said Patrick -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:57:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Some ridiculous things you've said Patrick -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:00:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS Patrick -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:54:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Fair do's Patrick [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:50:14 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:47:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Re: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- they're afraid of crazies like us steve -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:44:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:48:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Re: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Deb, it's not like that -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:03:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- I got the same letter. -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:52:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Curious -:- Janet - do you mean exactly the same letter [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:02:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Do they allow rants, or RANS? -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 00:52:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- hehe Scott, funny post [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:23:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Come on, Deb, it's not like that -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:25:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Come on, Deb, it's not like that -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:37:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey Steve -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 15:31:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Ditto, Steve and Dermot -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 15:34:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But don't you see, Pat? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 21:10:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're a shit-stirrer, JIm -:- Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 04:11:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey Jim???? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:57:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- RE is all ABOUT secrecy -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:10:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Could you please sugarcoat that :'( -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:35:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This only goes to show how insensitive *I* am! -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:39:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: But don't you see, Pat? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 21:31:05 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:32:33 (EDT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: All
Subject: This Forum's Agenda
Message:
Hi Everyone

In a thread below, Jim asked me: What is my agenda ?

An interesting question. I am going to think about it for a day or so before answering, but first, I want to ask a question of my own: What is the agenda of this Forum ?

Or to be more precise, since a Forum cannot really have an agenda, what is the agenda, or objective, or desired outcome, of those who post on this Forum ? In other words, why do they (you) do it ? What is the purpose ?

I can think of several reasons:

1) To bring M down; to finish his work as a guru, at least in the West.

2) To put in the public domain private facts about M, his close advisors, and K.

3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).

4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.

5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.

6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.

7) Forum-junkie; no real reason other than withdrawal symptoms if you don't visit the Forum for a few days. Question: when you turn your computer on, what is the first thing you do ? If you go to this Forum then you are probably in this category.

I am sure this question has been asked previously, but I cannot remember such a thread, and I would be interested in the responses.

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 20:45:18 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Agenda????
Message:
I have trouble with that word when applied to the Forum, because it implies some kind of preconceived set of objectives, which I don't think has ever existed. And even to the extent they now do, that sort of evolved over time, and it never was any kind of set objective. What started out as just a way for ex-premies to contact each other and communicate, became this thing that is so much more powerful. We can tell it's powerful from the way the cult works so hard to either destroy or counteract us. I never dreamed it would become that big a deal.

And I think all of the things you mention may or may not be in the minds of any particular person who comes here, and then probably a lot more too.

As for 'bringing M down,' I don't think we have the power to do that, only Maharaji and those who follow him really can. All we can do is try to expose what Maharaji is doing and has done, and how all that affected us, and to try to break through th lies and censorship of Maharaji and Elan Vital. If that 'brings Maharaji down' it's due to his failures, not the people who talk about them.

'Bringing to the public domain' has alway what I think has been most successful about the Forum and it has had a very profound affect on many, many people. I have always believed that secrecy is usually harmful to people, and because Maharaji is all about secrecy, exposing the truth is only to the benefit of everyone, whether they decide to follow Maharaji or not. And information really does set people free who are open to hearing it.

As I have said before, I feel a moral obligation to be involved in this, at least to some extent, because I feel strongly that I wasted a lot of time following Maharaji, hurting people I loved, as well as myself, and this is an opportunity to make up for that somewhat, by doing something constructive as a result of what was otherwise a major waste. And it's very gratifying to see people break free with some support here, because when I left the cult in 1983, there wasn't any support, whatsoever. I was really on my own, and it wasn't easy.

And for me, being a premie was all about the other premies. That's what was good about it. There were lots of premies I cared about, and most of them were very sincere, great people, who I learned a lot from and shared a lot with. And none of that had anything to do with Maharaji.

So, to the extent this helps any of them who are still involved, or helps people who aren't involved sort it out and break free completely, I'm all for that.

As to the 'forum junkie' concern, I confess that at times I have felt that way, especially when interesting things are going on, which seems to happen with regularity. I confess that I find all this very interesting, because it involves cherished beliefs and examination of how indoctrination works, and it's a fascinating dynamic to watch.

So, there is a certain detached interest I have as well about what goes on here.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 02:39:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Secrecy vs openness and honesty, Joe
Message:
You said: ''I have always believed that secrecy is usually harmful to people, and .... Maharaji is all about secrecy....''

A lot of what gets said here is the same stuff but it always gets said with new insight or read with new insight.

How could I have been so dumb as not to see that the veil of secrecy over Knowledge is the first cult deceit and from then on everything must be a lie or a nudge-nudge, wink-wink thingy.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:37:54 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: GREAT post Joe!
Message:
Don't have much to say, it's just right on. I do feel an obligation to keep the word out that Rawat is a scam, and that people can leave and be OK, in fact, leave and be free of it. Now THAT'S enjoying life.

Bests,
Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:29:04 (EDT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda
Message:
Hi Mike

The nature of the thread which has appeared in response to your question is exactly the reason why I continue to read and contribute from time too time to the Forum. 28 years of active involvement in the cult resulted, as one of its effects, in a significant dulling and almost nullifying of my analytical and critical faculties. This is bizarre given that I have a senior pos in a major UK university, but there was only one version of reality which was acceptable (which is whatever m happened to spout at any particular time either personally or through his close accolytes) and, much to my shame now, I never really challenged or contradicted whatever he said, even when it didn't seem to hold water (which was increasingly often). As I write this, I remember acting last year as a puppet mouth piece at one regional programme when I was asked to promote the concept of the smart card - things had got so pathetic, that we were given a script to more or less learn and deliver as if it was coming from the 'heart' - I couldn't help but laugh out openly as I was doing my bit and spill the beans to the assembled audience. My life as a premie was almost at an end at that moment, as cynicism overtook naivete.

The challenging nature of your question and the very varied nature of the responses here are totally alien to the environment in which I spent most of my adult life, living, as I did, as a devoted follower of the 'lord of the universe'. I have not replaced my more or less undivided dedication to supporting m and EV with anything of any substance since I broke away a few months ago, but much to my continuing surprise, I feel no sense of loss at all - just the opposite; i.e a sense of relief tinged with a certain incredulity at my stupidity.

However, by reading the postings of the people on this forum, I find myself consistently challenged, driven to consider why I am following a particular train of thought/belief. For all those years as a premie, if someone challenged my very cosy perspective on life, it was so easy to dismiss them (remember, 'Knowledge' with a capital K, the Lord of the Universe - you are quite simply on the winning side. It's a bit like supporting Manchester United, even if you have no natural allegiance to Manchester, yet feel so superior, so smug).

I feel as if for years and years I've allowed myself to have been used, abused, confused. It is a genuine pleasure to be a part, albeit often as passive observer, of the often very thoughtful, sometimes controversial and usually heartfelt contributions of so many of the exes who contribute here. One thing is for sure, without the Forum, I would not have had the confidence to actually dismiss m as the clear fraud that he is and to begin to rebuild my life.

So, my motives are not altruistic (even though I would be delighted if a prospective or current premie was in some way influenced by what they read here), nor are they destructive towards m, even though I would jump for joy on the day when m told the world (or at least his tiny premie world) that he had run out of inspiration, and that he had taken them as far as he could go). No, I am simply trying to re-construct my life, and the forum has proved to be a brilliant support.

All the best

Nick

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:41:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM*** Nick! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 20:51:45 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Terrific post Nick, thanks. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:37:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: And aNOTHer great post!
Message:
Really well said, Nick.

What exactly do you do at this university anyway? I'm sure your students enjoy it whatever it is.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 19:41:26 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, I want more, Nick! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:04:48 (EDT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda
Message:
Hi Mike

The nature of the thread which has appeared in response to your question is exactly the reason why I continue to read and contribute from time too time to the Forum. 28 years of active involvement in the cult resulted, as one of its effects, in a significant dulling and almost nullifying of my analytical and critical faculties. This is bizarre given that I have a senior pos in a major UK university, but there was only one version of reality which was acceptable (which is whatever m happened to spout at any particular time either personally or through his close accolytes) and, much to my shame now, I never really challenged or contradicted whatever he said, even when it didn't seem to hold water (which was increasingly often). As I write this, I remember acting last year as a puppet mouth piece at one regional programme when I was asked to promote the concept of the smart card - things had got so pathetic, that we were given a script to more or less learn and deliver as if it was coming from the 'heart' - I couldn't help but laugh out openly as I was doing my bit and spill the beans to the assembled audience. My life as a premie was almost at an end at that moment, as cynicism overtook naivete.

The challenging nature of your question and the very varied nature of the responses here are totally alien to the environment in which I spent most of my adult life, living, as I did, as a devoted follower of the 'lord of the universe'. I have not replaced my more or less undivided dedication to supporting m and EV with anything of any substance since I broke away a few months ago, but much to my continuing surprise, I feel no sense of loss at all - just the opposite; i.e a sense of relief tinged with a certain incredulity at my stupidity.

However, by reading the postings of the people on this forum, I find myself consistently challenged, driven to consider why I am following a particular train of thought/belief. For all those years as a premie, if someone challenged my very cosy perspective on life, it was so easy to dismiss them (remember, 'Knowledge' with a capital K, the Lord of the Universe - you are quite simply on the winning side. It's a bit like supporting Manchester United, even if you have no natural allegiance to Manchester, yet feel so superior, so smug).

I feel as if for years and years I've allowed myself to have been used, abused, confused. It is a genuine pleasure to be a part, albeit often as passive observer, of the often very thoughtful, sometimes controversial and usually heartfelt contributions of so many of the exes who contribute here. One thing is for sure, without the Forum, I would not have had the confidence to actually dismiss m as the clear fraud that he is and to begin to rebuild my life.

So, my motives are not altruistic (even though I would be delighted if a prospective or current premie was in some way influenced by what they read here), nor are they destructive towards m, even though I would jump for joy on the day when m told the world (or at least his tiny premie world) that he had run out of inspiration, and that he had taken them as far as he could go). No, I am simply trying to re-construct my life, and the forum has proved to be a brilliant support.

All the best

Nick

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:18:05 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nick
Subject: Spot on Nick (OT)
Message:
Hi - It's good to see you posting here comrade. I haven't been around our usual haunts lately for a lunch meet but I'd love to meet you again soon.
Maybe me and Nige could meet you soon for a night out. Email me if you fancy. (new email address above)
All the best, Moley
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 21:34:32 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Yea! Spot on Nick +)
Message:
Hi Moley :)

Nice to see you around.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 22:33:57 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Yea! Spot on Nick +)
Message:
Hi Debs - ditto ! :)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:59:38 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda
Message:
Hi Mike, here are my responses:-

1) To bring M down; to finish his work as a guru, at least in the West.

I think if he would just deal honestly and publicly with the complaints against him it might be enough, although if he did that his work would probably be finished anyway.

2) To put in the public domain private facts about M, his close advisors, and K.

Only if the facts are relevant to improper bevaviour.

3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).

Yes - very important.

4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.

Yes, very important.

5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.

Yes, although recognition for wrongs committed may be all that can reasonably hoped for.

6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.

Yes, but personally I would hope contributors express their feelings with a little circumspection.

7) Forum-junkie; no real reason other than withdrawal symptoms if you don't visit the Forum for a few days. Question: when you turn your computer on, what is the first thing you do ? If you go to this Forum then you are probably in this category.

Email first, then this forum. Guilty as charged, m'lud:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:11:48 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: My agenda
Message:
Mike

As a Premie , did you find it the easiest thing in the world to suss out that Rajneeshi's, Moonie's, Scientologist's etc etc , etc were in a WEIRD cult but you were somehow different? No matter if , to any intelligent, neutral observer your position would be completely untenable.

In fact, didn't your EXPERIENCE prove to you that Maharaji was , as you said to Jim, 'the living incarnation of the Lord' ? Didn't that experience penetrate so deeply in your psyche, mind, heart and 'soul'? It did, didn't it?

Did it go se deep that you were prepared to accept all the obvious shit from DLM/DUO/EV etc (and over the decades there was plenty of it) and NEVER REALLY (in your bones) attribute ANY of it to Maharaji, even though any average , intelligent 7yo would quickly deduce that the guy was really an incompetent , praise-loving cult leader? That his 35 / 36 years of 'preaching' (including his court battles with his mother/brother for the family 'religion' ) have resulted in a weird , dwindling cult that is seriously schizophrenic at the core ie Total 'lord of the universe' in India/arti and darshan secretly in Australia ……but a website saying he never wanted to be a leader/ it's all his followers mistakes. And of course at every 'event' trinkets and endless, endless photos of him sold without a hint of irony.

Does it seem ridiculous to you that Maharaji now says (on his own web site) that followers just had weird concepts about him and over the years he's been an innocent, misunderstood, blameless victim of those very concepts? As if those concepts just happened to conjure up , out of the air, those huge badges with his smiling face and 'Lord of the Universe ' plastered all over it. Hey ! No factories involved …..he didn't know about it ……it was just our ideas about him! Likewise, he didn't know that the DIVINE TIMES I was handing out to all and sundry just happened to say ' The LORD is now in London' as a front page spread. Those damn concepts again! Poor Maharaji, if he had known any of this I'm sure he would have put us right IMMEDIATELY.

Also, doesn't it just seem a little bit odd that only a few short years ago, Maharaji was (ridiculously) warning his followers of what a stupid illusion the internet was and how his advice would be to IGNORE it? As if it was something more than just another form of communication, like the telephone etc. Then a few years on to encourage a proliferation of sites ranging from his own, the EV spin site and the ugly CAC site.

On top of all that , there are credible accounts of his hypocritical personal life. If he wants sex , drugs or whatever …fine by me but the HYPOCRICY angle is a little grating.

My agenda? To remind myself and others that as a 22yo man I brainwashed myself and was brainwashed by others ie other premies, mahatmas, 'Holy Family' and Rawat himself (yes, I think it was brainwashing …..very subtle, very insidious but brainwashing nevertheless) to accept Maharaji as you say 'the living incarnation of the Lord'………and no fucking way ( despite what he says these days) did he do the slightest thing to discourage me from doing so ……rather, he actively (beyond the call of duty ! ) did EVERYTHING in his power to ENCOURAGE me.

The conditioning of thousands of hours of satsang went so deep …. (remember some of those events where the initiators would DRONE on from morning till night then the man himself come on stage to add the cherry ? Only for it to be repeated the next day, with chit-chat actively discouraged)… that the central weapon of 'LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND' was lethal for decades.

Eventually, somehow or other, I saw it clear as day for what it was ….A WEIRD PERSONALITY CULT. From the early days, right through I also saw it as that too but, as I say, that lethal indoctrinated weapon of ' leave no room …..' always had the final say.

So in spite of the brainwashing (and yes I admit, helped on by his charisma/charm , which I once so easily fell for) I want to let people know that I was well and truly conned by Rawat Enterprises Inc ( est 193-? By Shri Hans) and well and truly spent most of my adult life in it. Had I been a bit more sussed, I should have walked away as a 22yo before the brainwashing started or at least only have given my essential ' power' to him for a short while only. I also want to tell others …..hey, you want to meditate? Get a little yoga book, read it and meditate. Don't waste your time on a person who just loves to be adored and while he's being adored he and his family get nicely mega rich at the adorers expense.

Mainly , I want to tell myself and others……don't be infantile…don't be conned by any of the new age or spiritual merchants. Think for yourself. Feel for yourself. Yes pick up and put down whatever, and learn from whoever and whatever but don't let some person convince you that you NEED them for your life to be authentic.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 16:14:24 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: bananas@freeatlast.org/asm
To: Dermot
Subject: dat roly-poly concept-maker = da real doubt-maker
Message:
hey, you want to meditate? Get a little yoga book, read it and meditate. Don't waste your time on a person who just loves to be adored and while he's being adored he and his family get nicely mega rich at the adorers expense.

Mainly , I want to tell myself and others……don't be infantile…don't be conned by any of the new age or spiritual merchants. Think for yourself. Feel for yourself. Yes pick up and put down whatever, and learn from whoever and whatever but don't let some person convince you that you NEED them for your life to be authentic.

---

---

---
--

yep!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:14:53 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I never tire of hearing truth, Dermot
Message:
What you said has been said before but I just lapped up your passionate indignation. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:40:46 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yeah Pat
Message:
When it gets down to the brass tacks, our agenda couldn't be clearer or simpler.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:03:59 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine
Message:
mike
all of your categories seem to be negative, even sarcastic.
Deb has described my agenda far more accurately than you have.
for all your genius, you might have failed to understand the magnitude of what belonging to this cult/lifestyle/belief system did/has done to us when contrasted against the backdrop of what the rest of the world experienced during the same time frame.

This is the only place I have found where I can walk in, sit down, open my mouth, and I don't have to worry about how to explain to anyone else here what I spent the last 27 years of my life doing, or why.
It is paralyzing and way TMI to even attempt to do that when I am in the company of 'regular' people who never did this.I can't even think of a way to begin to give them a starting point without telling my life story--and where i live, no one has the attention span to listen to it.

Another fact is this:: right or wrong, this really was my life. This is what i did from age 20 to age 48. I didn't do something else, and I can't go back and change it and live it again like everyone else was living it.
Only the others who were there need no explanation, and it is a relief to refer to the same events, the same people, the same strange habits or landmarks, and now be able to speak freely about my life as it really was, to people who were there and understand it.

War veterans who served in the same battlefield can do this.
For that matter, hippies who were at woodstock, or leftists who were at chicago can do this.

and of late, anyone who was at ground zero on 9-11 can do this.
if you weren't there, no words can explain it. you hadda be there.

so the purpose of having this isn't negative, and it isnt about maharaji so much as it is about me. my life, my reality, what I did, what I thought, felt, saw, knew, wanted, had, didn't get, did get--and telling it to people who have the groundwork already, so i don't have to back up and start from the top, every time i want to voice my mind.

Is it negative, that war veterans fall into speaking with one another in obscure references they understand among one another without explanation? Is it snide and exclusionary and destructive when old hippies get to reminiscing about Grateful Dead tours of yore? Is it deliberately alienating if survivors of 9-11 get shaky and emotional and overcome when they begin to try to speak of the experience of what happened and what they did when the building began to perish?

c'mon mike.
see the prejudice implied in your choice of terms and be evenhanded. we are peers here, in a strange and common experience we share, that took up years and years of our lives, and who else can we talk to about it, so openly and naturally.
?
can you suggest anywhere better?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 21:29:21 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine
Message:
Hi Janet,

I'm glad you found some common ground with me on why I post here. You articulated what I feel about 'normal' very well. It is difficult trying to relate to a life that wasn't real.

Yes, many people make mistakes, but they made them based on lack of information, not because they were deliberately brainwashed. And the mistakes we made were not limited to a bad decision here or there. It affected decades 24/7 of our lives. This is very disturbing.

Even a lot of the good times (like festivals, doing service with loving friends, HOLI and other premie happenings that were utopian bliss at the time are currently tainted with ridicule and shame of deceiption.

At least you don't have to beat yourself up for getting blasted and twirling your skirt at a Greatful Dead contest. Shit! Even the good times are damaged memories.

I appreciate your feedback even though I don't think MF meant to be negative. I felt he put heart into his question as he is thinking about what his agenda is for posting here.

Lots of love, hope you are doing well.

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:31:27 (EDT)
From: Nottingham Mole
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine
Message:
Janet,

How fascinating that you should say:

‘all of your categories seem to be negative, even sarcastic’

Is 4 either of these?

4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.

Do you really think 3, 5, 6 are negative or sarcastic?

3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).

5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.

6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.

Many who post here would probably not consider the other categories negative either. As for sarcastic, well hardly, it's more an observation in view of the previously declared intent of a number of posters to bring Maharaji down.

On the other hand, your post began in an extremely sarcastic and even hostile tone.

Mike’s post has opened some positive discussion and when I last read the thread, yours was the only negative reaction.

Ironic that you should end with…………

‘we are peers here, in a strange and common experience we share, that took up years and years of our lives, and who else can we talk to about it, so openly and naturally’

……………in view of your post on Forum 5 when your response to Mike’s earlier postings where he expressed very personal feelings and was processing very publicly.

Do you remember your suggestion to ‘out Mike to his corporate clients’?

NM

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:31:57 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: Thanks, NM, well said
Message:
You asked Janet: ''Do you remember your suggestion to ‘out Mike to his corporate clients’?''

I hope Janet apologises to Mike for saying that.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:22:09 (EDT)
From: Nottingham Mole
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda and mine
Message:
Janet,

How fascinating that you should say

‘all of your categories seem to be negative, even sarcastic’

Is 4 either of these?#

4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.

Do you really think 3, 5, 6 fit into these categories?

3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).

5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.

6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.

Many who post here would probably not consider the other categories negative either. As for sarcastic, well hardly, it's more an observation in view of the previously declared intent of a number of posters to bring Maharaji down.

On the other hand, I did find your post began in an extremely sarcastic and even hostile tone.

Mike’s post has opened some positive discussion and when I last read the thread, yours was the only negative reaction.

Interesting that you should end with…………

‘we are peers here, in a strange and common experience we share, that took up years and years of our lives, and who else can we talk to about it, so openly and naturally’

……………and rather ironic in view of your post on Forum 5 when your response to Mike’s earlier postings where he expressed very personal feelings and was processing very publicly. Do you remember your suggestion to ‘out Mike to his corporate clients’

NM

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:33:40 (EDT)
From: NM
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: Ignore this - posted earlier in error
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:02:40 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda
Message:
As usual Mike, you waste few words and present us with a thoughtful analysis. Let me use your concise list as a starting point to consider my reasons, which have changed over the years.

Firstly let me dispute your point 7) where you say:

Forum-junkie; no real reason other than withdrawal symptoms if you don't visit the Forum for a few days. Question: when you turn your computer on, what is the first thing you do? If you go to this Forum then you are probably in this category.

No one is a Junkie for no reason. Some people do seem to have not much else better to do, judging by the lack of substance in their posts, than to switch on their computer and go straight to the forum. But 'withdrawal' itself can be for good reason.
Although I certainly scan this forum quite regularly (maybe not quite daily - but almost) I am not ashamed to say that my habit is fuelled, (as I say again below) by a real need to see justice done and to scan the forum for interesting developments.

1) To bring M down; to finish his work as a guru, at least in the West.

I was never motivated to bring M down as such. Rather I felt that the Forum was symptomatic of premies not having the opportunity within M's world, to voice dissatisfaction to him personally. Therefore my expressions on the forum (especially when I dropped the fear-based anonymity) were effectively a challenge to Maharaji himself, to address these issues that either he was unaware of, or was simply ignoring. This was more or less a personal expression that I hoped Maharaji might heed and/or other premies resonate with.

I hoped, and still believe, that communication, sensible thought and public criticism could prompt Maharaji into setting matters straight on my particular questions, one of which was - why he was so tough on us living in ashrams and using his position of trust to control people with fear?

2) To put in the public domain private facts about M, his close advisors, and K.

The secrecy factor about both the Knowledge itself, the goings of Elan Vital, and above all Maharaji's actual life and habits has long seemed indicative that there was something wrong. I have never felt that the secrecy was remotely justified, or explained by the party line.

For a start, newcomers do not have an honest picture of what they are getting into. Therefore the fact that these Forum discussions take place in public and that some of these 'secrets' are discussed, has to be a good thing for them. At least they are getting both sides of the story before they get into it. To this extent I agree that the forum is undoubtedly a public service.

3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).

Only on a public forum can this really happen. Also, premies want to hear any stories about their Master that demonstrate his mercy, compassion etc. These were called 'darshan stories' and we could not get enough of them as premies. Naturally curiosity compels premies to at least prick up their ears when reports that hint of less 'divine' behaviour are published. They can get those stories here.

The points of view of exes indeed are not always dismissed by premies as heinous nonsense. Many share the misgivings that exes have, but are not yet so sure that the bad outweighs the good.

4) To provide an environment where individuals can become clearer in their own understanding and perception, whether as readers only, or as actively participating.

and

6) To give vent to suppressed feelings.

I have got a lot out of both posting and just reading here, just as do many others.
The fact that many choose only to ‘lurk’ is for several reasons.

a) Current Premies are probably just perversely curious to see the 'fallen' in their hell but wouldn't dream of joining in. One premie admitted to me that he was drawn to read the site much as he was drawn to watch some hard porn movie!

b) People 'on the fence' are scared of being confronted about their position by aggressive over-zealous exes.

c) They, like me, have mostly said their bit and are just curious to sift through the dross to pick out gems and new developments and to respond when inspired.

I used to have a lot to say... to get off my chest. I feel that in this respect I have succeeded and have less need to write now, as it would be mere repetition to do so. (Having said this I often do repeat myself addressing newcomers). Like others that posted here and submitted journeys to www.ex-premie.org , it was very helpful to have an environment where I could express my misgivings about what I experienced as a premie and to question the cultic aspects thereof.

This was an exercise done somewhat in desperation after having been frustrated in seeking answers from within the 'system' over the years, or indeed having just 'bottled up' my doubts.

There was an element of anger at having been subjected to authoritarian suppression within the system and a feeling that the Internet hailed an opportunity to get in touch with like-minded aggrieved persons so that we might voice our complaints. Putting pen to paper (tapping words to screen?) as such is after all, a powerful medium of expression and has the effect of making one consider ones buried issues in a concerted way. Just by writing and discussing with others, doubts that maybe one was timid to entertain, are addressed at last.

The fact that so many others seem to share ones feelings and that there is a 'forum' where such doubts are not frowned upon is a relief and gives one confidence in oneself. A confidence that was severely undermined by the habit of demonising the 'Mind' within the cult.

5) To obtain justice for wrongs committed.

In Maharaji's world there is a warped sense of justice, as is borne out by the fact that so many wrongs have been seen to have been swept under the carpet.
I am reliably informed that, as a Scorpio with strong Libran tendencies, I am burdened with a particularly strong sense of justice! Maybe this accounts for my own feelings that there is an urgent need to not let these corruptive historic events be forgotten. If we cannot learn from history then it is a sorry world.

The Internet gives people worldwide the opportunity, through public forums such as this, to expose the abuses of oppressive regimes and cults, both alerting people to the dangers of falling prey to them and drawing attention to the injustices that they have perpetrated that justice may finally be sought.

This is an important point Mike. I have often felt that there was much about Knowledge that was suspiciously unfair. For a start, the qualifications for receiving Knowledge were always touted as simply having sincerity etc. In reality it was necessary that you be a very rare and particular social creature...one that could tolerate all kinds of nonsense from being willing to jeopardise ones job travelling around after Mahatmas to being able to bear the inane endless ramblings of weirdly dressed kids sitting on hard floors.

This certainly severely marginalized the group of people who could possibly be eligible for this Great Universal Truth. Of course if you had a religious conviction that was a severe problem too. To me it was unjust to pretend that Knowledge was a gift that you could put into your life and it would improve, when the agenda became more and more about what you needed to give up of your life. Adding insult to injury, those sacrifices that we all made, that we now maybe feel as a sense of loss, were largely to Maharaji's enormous personal gain.

Here is a man whose huge personal wealth others have given him, many of whom now feel is not altogether deserved. Some people just feel that it is enough to cut their losses and just get on rebuilding their lives. Others feel actually crippled by the abuse that they feel was perpetrated upon them, and feel that their 'moving on', their healing, is inextricably tied up with Maharaji, as chief abuser, being brought to account - to justice.

As long as Maharaji is seen to be 'getting away with his past crimes' - carrying on with business as usual, many feel that they have an obligation, a personal need (maybe in some cases bordering on revenge) to keep pushing for justice- not to let the matter rest. I am driven by a mixture of these feelings (in degrees) and also a higher ethic that compels me to simply pursue truth even if that means, ironically, confronting the person I once adopted as a trusted teacher of that subject and his ideas about what 'It is'.

The public forum is a neccessary watchdog to the continued activities and effects of Maharaji and Knowledge on people's lives. As far asa i'm concerned, if people like the Andersons, feel benefitted -that's fine. I can tolerate their position and indeed can repect it to some degree. However there is a need for an open public space to discuss both the pro's and cons of M and K, and at this time, this seems to be fulfilling that role.

Finally, I must say that I have long been a supporter of the notion that this site should have some moderation to ensure that people stay on topic, rather than use it is a place to discuss world events etc. However, that some personal chat takes place is hardly intolerable, making the job of the FA particularly difficult.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:22:36 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: This Forum's Agenda
Message:
Hi Mike
Very succinct. I think I subscribe to all 7 reasons. It was good meeting you at the Latvian thingy. In the back of my mind I have a slightly guilty conscience about a scathing post I contribured about your good self and reference to 'Intellectual Satsang'. Please accept my apologies, if needed.
It would be very interesting to hear your story in more detail, some more jigsaw pieces. Who's going to write the book? Film rights? Comedy or tragedy?
Best Wishes
Tim
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:43:41 (EDT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: No Aplogies needed
Message:
In the back of my mind I have a slightly guilty conscience about a scathing post I contribured about your good self and reference to 'Intellectual Satsang'. Please accept my apologies, if needed.

Yes, I remember the post. Don't worry about it, no apologies needed - but thanks anyway.

-- Mik

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:19:23 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: 7) Forum-junkie
Message:
I must say that, after nearly ten months of posting and reading here, that ''7) Forum-junkie'' best describes why I read the forum.

Exes are the sort of people who drew me into the cult in the first place; smart, sassy, gutsy, opinionated, enthusiastic, honest, iconoclastic, brave, irreverent etc.

My agenda for writing here is:

''3) So that premies can be exposed to points of view they would not be exposed to if it were not for this Forum (and others like it).''

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 04:46:06 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: can we establish a FMG
Message:
I should like to suggest that this place needs to be more organised.

If we establish a Per Post (or provisionally per-poster) FMG (Finch Motivational Grading) so that the intentions of each post can be weighed and sorted into categories...perhaps we can stop the confusion.. and get some of the posts into tidy piles instead of spread all over the floor.

licenses to post can be issued in various categories - we can use the Recent ex-PAMF Forum administrators to vet applicants.

We cant have babies being thrown willy-nilly any longer.

Synchronised baby hurling is the way forward.

Yours

Loaf - displacing an alarming amount of bathwater
It seems that the FOMFs and PAMFs or even the RE-PAMFs should have their own forums too...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 00:10:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Yes Mike and a whole lot more
Message:
Hi Mike,

I've read your posts and would like to welcome you back.

Yes, you hit the nail right on the head with all of the proposed agendas (agendae?)and I fall into the latter category of agenda 7. Forum Junkie, although I check my email first.

But I open up two windows so that EPO can load, than I keep the two windows open.

If I'm not expecting any return emails I will use the second window for Anything Goes II and toggle back and forth. Believe it or not, if I'm on a reading and posting spree, I have actually opened a 3rd window. I'm a student and sometimes I will use that 3rd window to search the web for school related stuff. Yes, I've opened 4 windows.

Whew! Somebody organize an intervention.

I think a big reason why a lot of us stay at EPO is for the friendship and deepseated relatability. I have enormous compassion for what people have gone through and you know how the addage goes:

'If you want to receive something, than do it for other people.'

Also coming to terms with cult abduction can leave a pretty hollow place in one's psyche and/or heart. It can be very disorientating at first (it was for me and I drifted in the late 80's). This could also induce social alienation, you know a feeling of being defective and therefore removed from 'normal' people who don't join cults and kiss asshole guru's feet and swing arti trays and you get the picture.

Although I don't usually admit it, I believe that people who were premies developed ideals that shouldn't be thrown out because of Maha's fraudulence. Right, wrong, or indifferent, we were an amazing group of people. I still see the same qualities with exes that I cherished from my involvement in the cult. I like the quality and values of people here. Although the cult is in itself, negative, the people emerging with clarity are rather positive.

So, nice to meet you. Hope to see more contributions.

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:32:04 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I agree with everything you said, Deb, except
Message:
.....your last paragraph: ''Although I don't usually admit it, I believe that people who were premies developed ideals that shouldn't be thrown out because of Maha's fraudulence. Right, wrong, or indifferent, we were an amazing group of people. I still see the same qualities with exes that I cherished from my involvement in the cult. I like the quality and values of people here. Although the cult is in itself, negative, the people emerging with clarity are rather positive.''

I believe that we all had those qualities before we met Rev Rawat. Those were the qualities that provided the energy and enthiusiams of the early days.

I was talking to an ex (who very frequently posts here) on the phone yesterday and we both agreed that there was a lot of juice around in the early days but I feel that it started to leak drastically sometime in the 80s.

I've met quite a few former 70s premies in SF and they are mostly still unusual and creative people. It is no coincidence that, since all the most creative and enthusiastic people left the cult, the juice has really gone right out of it for all but a handful of people who don't mind the idea of having a televangelist priest running a money-making religion.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:23:23 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: I agree with everything you said
Message:
Hi PatC,

I didn't mean to imply that Maha was responsible. It was because of the premies. Most of my friends were from the 70's recruitment not 80's as well.

Lots of love to you,

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:53:47 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: 3, 4 and 6 here Mike [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:48:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: My Agenda
Message:
Mike:

I'm not allowed to discuss my agenda on this forum, but suffice to say that Maharaji is only tangentially related. That has been the case since the first word I posted 4 years ago, and I've never apologized for it (and don't intend to). I wish this forum were a reflection of the 'real world' but have come to believe that's a vain hope. It's no longer very interesting to post here, and not much fun. Well, you asked.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:19:14 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: My Agenda
Message:
Mike:

I'm not allowed to discuss my agenda on this forum, but suffice to say that Maharaji is only tangentially related. That has been the case since the first word I posted 4 years ago, and I've never apologized for it (and don't intend to). I wish this forum were a reflection of the 'real world' but have come to believe that's a vain hope. It's no longer very interesting to post here, and not much fun. Well, you asked.

--Scott

Scott, I have always enjoyed your intelligent posts and have observed your recent hiccup with the FA with some surprise. As one who obviously has the ability and desire to make sensible comment about the chosen topic of this forum, I 'm sure you can appreciate that there is a real benefit to keeping generally on topic. I don't know the exact circumstances of your 'straying' but even if this forum does not have room to discuss the wider issues of 'the real world' at length, surely that does not make it an uninteresting place to talk about Mand K. I know it's not fun when people seem to be against you. I have experienced that too.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:13:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Controlling Agendas
Message:
Patrick:

I know you have. I don't mind people being against me, or even moderating my topical excursions. What I mind is having a rag stuffed in my mouth by someone who has participated in those excursions at least as much as I, and just as heavy handedly quelled any sort of open speech on the subject of 'topics' no matter how well considered. To me it largely de-legitimates the Forum, until there's a substantial change in administration. But I can see how you might regard it as better than nothing. And from a practical standpoint the fellow would have a really rough time if he were to quell any speech having to do with Maharaji directly, although it's not clear what would happen if you were to discuss *The Guru Papers* from a critical perspective. You're relatively safe though, it seems.

What can't be done: You can't grab a handful of insight from any substantial analysis and argumentation of larger related events having to do with cults, and then using that insight *re-focus* on Maharaji from a different perspective. That is completely forbidden by the 'new format,' by virtue of the fact that you can't let go of Maha long enough to extract your hand from the jar. And that's the major reason why I regard it as a serious, and even unconscionable mistake.

It's not as though I actually lost that argument. There has been no open discussion of it. Not anywhere. Sobeit. Fact is fact. As far as I'm concerned the only legitimate constraints ought to be the validity and sincerity of the argument. But that's just me. If and when people get fed up with this situation lets have a discussion on some open forum. Maybe it needs some 'soak time.'

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:42:40 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Controlling Agendas
Message:
Is there another open forum that has discussions such as happen here but on other topics? I am glad this forum is on topic but would also appreciate being able to discuss other things in the same way. I am just learning about 'the real world'. I have looked around but am not so good at computers and haven't really found anything. Please could you send me a link if you have one.

Peg

PS preferably one where I won't be ridiculed for being at the stage I am, ie have hardly read a newspaper for 30 years or written anything. Not of major importance tho' as I don't have to post do I?

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:49:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Lively discussions on AG
Message:
has undergone quite a transformation. I'd be happy to chat with you about almost anything over there as I'm sure Scott and hamzen would. We're all very opnionated and enjoy having discussions. So where would you like to start?
[ Anything Goes Too ]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 00:14:16 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: part of our am agenda
Message:
and its one of the coffee break story lines \\\ albiet it has been pre-empted by the world events
Even so -non premies want updates of the unfolding SCAM expozay. but the abuse cover up is BIG .

some have it bookmarked

personally, I am not here to see mafluky get brought down . that is too remote. I am interested to see his reputation as a used car salesman spread. It is fascinating cause its in slow motion.
Z

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 06:39:52 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: bernee@flashmail.com
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: This forum's agenda
Message:
Jim has suggested below that this forum should be a place where 'we (ex-premies) should all be able to chat with each other in a free, unstructured environment but I think the FA tends to disagree with that and wants the topics to be always within certain criteria.
I agree with Jim - except that I think there should be some rules of behaviour - after all manners maketh a man, and whatever the disagreement, there is no excuse for rudeness, although Jim says it is a myth that some people find F7 hostile and agressive and asked...
'Tell me, Mike, what happened to you that was so bad when you first posted? In particular, what did *I* say that qualifies?'
Maybe it's just different cultures or degrees of sensitivity but Mike did present a couple of examples of what was said to him in previous posts e.g.You know, you just might the only premie that avoided promulgating the cult programming when you gave satsang.
Then again, you may be full of shit (and there are so many examples throughout the forum archives - not just between Jim and Mike or Katie etc. but between other exes).
I know that badinage is a great aspect of any group debate but insulting posts that have the intention of putting someone down - without the necessary relationship that badinage requires is just nasty and could indeed make this a place that those of a sensitive nature would not want to spend time in. Some of us remain fragile even many years after leaving ( and is the reason why many of us joined DLM - 'protection of the weary and the weak') and many premies and exes are of a sensitive nature - especially when they are trying to leave the cult.
Mike says 'Certainly lovey-dovey acceptance of everything one says is not challenging. But is it not possible to be challenging and civil ?'
This sums up what I wish the forum would be. A place where people who have been through a similar experience of being 'devotees' of the living master can share ideas and experience, indulge in dialectical debate and hopefully come up with advice to others as to what to do with your life after years of following a path that took you nowhere.
I agree with Scott that Maharaji is only tangentially related or at least should be.
Haven't we wasted enough of our lives thinking about him and his 'mission'?
Best wishes,
berni
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:06:12 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: This forum's agenda
Message:
Berni:

I don't agree with the notion that it should be unstructured, nor does Jim probably, if you pressed him on it. However, I'd substitute the term 'standards' for 'structure.' I just disagree that the 'structure' needs to be based primarily or rigidly on topic (or on manners, directly). There are lots of controls that a population can exert on posters short of excluding them, and these are usually referred to as 'social controls.' So, in most cases there's no need for direct controls. What I think the forum lacks are 'standards' not only to decide when someone is trolling but more importantly to determine when an argument is being won or lost, and that's the chief reason we get into trouble.

I, for instance, don't think there's much credibility to the notion that the WTC disaster was caused by the CIA or the Bush family. I think that I can win that argument hands down, but if people are willing to entertain someone who insists otherwise then there ought to be some sort of flag, at least, to indicate to people that the issue has been engaged and decided. So, unless some radically new evidence is introduced continuing to post such messages ought to be considered trolling, or serving some other personal psychological need that may or may not need to be addressed by the group.

There are also some issues that probably can't be decided to a high degree of certainty, so in those cases we should at least be able to make judgments about whether the views expressed are sincere and leave it at that.

I may or may not feel compelled to respond politely to someone who thinks the WTC attack was justified, or that Jagdeo 'had his reasons' or whatever.

Spamming and obvious trollery, as well as presenting insincere arguments for the sake of strategic advantage ought to be grounds for exclusion, although I have a problem with leaving such decisions exclusively in the hands of one individual, even if it were me.

I am somewhat excited about the concept of moving on past Maharaji, perhaps incorporating what we've learned into a more mature view of the world. I think we can, at least potentially, come to some conclusions about the nature of authority and probems associated with it... without coming to blows.

Now, I wouldn't mind seeing Gerry explain what all that was about. I'm sure he's had time to reflect on it a bit, and there might even come a time when I no longer regard him as a complete poop. I certainly don't think it's fair for this group to slough off responsibility for maintaining this site onto one person's shoulders... at least not and expect the forum to even remotely fulfill our expectations.

Now, I don't think I've necessarily won the argument over topic focus, nor have I lost it. I don't think the issue is all that straightforward, so it'll involve some debate... and perhaps an 'approximation' process. But the current restrictions (if one could even figure out what they were) are probably not what I'd call 'legitimate.' And in case anyone hasn't noticed, I take that issue of legitimacy pretty seriously.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:40:15 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: This forum's agenda
Message:
Hi Scott,
I agree with your take on 'standards' and I didn't mean to say that manners should be a part of the criteria - I just would like to see more civilised discussion, even when people are diametrically opposed.
I guess I do find it hard to stay on any sort of topic - like Holden Cauldfield, I have a tendency to digress and although Mike's thread was about the forum agenda rather than the 'social controls' that you mention Icouldn't help get into the importance of being able to communicate without it becoming a slanging match.
I mean if you and I can exchange ideas without resorting to insults and with our different views on life then why can't others? It's not just a matter of being polite, and I admit that there are some people you encounter that have not got the intelligence, or are just out to wind you up, or are so narrow minded, or lacking in any reasonable moral perspective.. that you either just tell them to sod off or you give up trying to have a dialogue with them and avoid them as much as possible.
However most contributors to this forum are not like that. Even if they have different political, religious or philosophical viewpoints they are able to thrash them out and are willing to listen to each other - that's how we learn.
This is why this forum is so special. In the more open political/religious forums you get a load of maniacs and immature prosletisers(sp?) who you would run a mile from if you ever met in a bar.
Most of us here are linked in some way, and not just because used to be premies, but because we came to M for similar reasons - i.e. we wanted to know what life was all about, we wanted to discover the way to become better people/fulfill ourselves, we wanted to put the world to rights. And I think, despite having wasted a lot of time going down a dead end road, we still want the same things.
Anyhow, I'm digressing again.
I'm with you when you say I think we can, at least potentially, come to some conclusions about the nature of authority and probems associated with it... without coming to blows.
and feel that this and other points that have come up lately about religious fundamentalism, leaders, ethics etc. are all directly related to what we have been doing both while in the cult and since we have left it. Also I think that part of the reason so many are obsessed with talking about what happened in those days of satsang, service and meditation is because we failed to achieve what the whole thing was supposed to be about.
So let's hope these posts don't get trashed
cheers
berni
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:23:47 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: This forum's agenda
Message:
m is central in one respect.. he is the only thing we have in common.

also it tells us a lot about ourselves as we unravel our feelings about him, and those years of our lives in which he was central.

sometimes we need to take time to lay the past to rest.

Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:21:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: This forum's agenda
Message:
Loaf:

I actually have mixed feelings about that era of my life, though not about Maharaji per se. I'm sure others do too. It would seem appropriate to conclude that having eaten a pig that was accidentally burned in a barn fire, roast pig is good... without the need to burn down the barn every time we get a little hungry for pork. The Guru was a catastrophe that may have had both good and bad resultants. My need to communicate about him in particular has been bled off, though it might build up to a critical level if left unattended for a long time (like another 20 years maybe). But the truth is, I really am pretty worried about those kids learning to be suicide martyrs, and I have a hunch that we might see things eye to eye eventually, regarding how to incorparate that dialog into our common experience of cults. I suspect that Abi has a good deal more insight into that than I do, though.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 19:41:06 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: All
Subject: Forum Links on EPO
Message:
After the recent (ongoing?) controversy about the Recent Exes forum, I have updated the forum and links pages on EPO. Let me know if you have any comments on the descriptions of the forums.

Also, on the links page, some of the recent forums that have sprung up are not yet linked. If you think your forum deserves to be there (i.e. you think it will last a while and get used), please email me and I will add it to the links page.

John.
[ EPO Forum Page ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:11:01 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Forum Links on EPO
Message:
Dear JHB

IMO the f7 blurb is great. The recent exes blurb tho' seems to be a bit offputting . Sort of saying 'if you are a wimp go there' Actually I think it is complementary to f7 and personally speaking I am glad it's there but if I had read your description I would (probably)never have applied. If you like I could make a constructive suggestion but at the moment I am a little pissed.

Peg

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:02:17 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Forum Links on EPO
Message:
Peg,
Do I understand it that you post now on recent ex's? If so, would you relay a message that I really miss you and the others postings here? I wondered where everyone had gone too. Honestly, it does help so much reading people who have recently exited. I never know what in a day's time is going to come bubbling to the surface. Today has been a particularly trying day, and I don't even know how to put into words what I'm feeling. Ahh, I should just go and try one of the chai recipes. I must be in need of some tlc.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 23:28:33 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: to Vicki
Message:
I haven't gone anywhere. Because I am rarely alone with a computer, especially in the week when I have to use my son's, and also because by the time i have worked out what I want to say someone else has said it, I don't post much at all. I think some others others left when it was political and haven't come back.

Good luck with the chai...Peg

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:44:19 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: to Vicki
Message:
Please, don't let that stop you from posting, if you can get time on your son's comp. Really, it doesn't matter if someone else has said something, because everyone kinda has their own flavor and understanding, adding a little more of a piece to the puzzle. And I've always felt your words were very interesting, succinct and to the point. Not rambling like mine. But I do understand about getting comp time. I'm in constant competition around this house, hence the weird times I can read and post.

Settled for hot chocolate, no fresh ginger in the house and too tired to get in the car yet one more time today. Mom=taxi cab driver

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 19:13:30 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: The debate continues
Message:
Peg,

As well as the few responses I've had here, I have some email responses. I am giving the issue serious consideration, and I am pleased that you can write without typos when pissed (or as we say here in Latvia, piedzeries). I look forward to your sober, or drunk, suggestions:-)

John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 14:23:52 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Peg, in the US pissed means
Message:
...angry but, if I remember correctly, it means drunk in UK. Are you angry about the description of RE or just a little tipsy? I hope the latter. Best wishes.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 18:22:21 (EDT)
From: Thanks Pat...I mean tipsy1
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Peg, in the US pissed means [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:10:29 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Forum Links on EPO
Message:
Very diplomatic as befits the webmaster of EPO.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:16:36 (EDT)
From: OK
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Forum Links on EPO
Message:
What do they talk about on RE?
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:57:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: From LG: SC's theory about ''Pam''
Message:
Over on LG, SC said that he knew who the ''Pam'' was. I asked if it was a mutual acquaintance of ours. He answered that ''Pam'' was a ''tri-pam.'' I asked if a ''tri-pam'' was a PAM-wannabe. SC replied:

''No, a tri-pam is an unholy trinity of conspirers who've come together to creat a hybrid persona that is supposed to appear as one 'pam'. It's a tricky agenda, but they gave it their best shot.

''Remember, a post from one 'pam' is equal (in net worth) to ten posts from us normal run of the mill writers. So one can understand the need to create these spiritual frankensteins!''

Now I take this very seriously from SC/David Roupell as he is a writer and an expert on ''creating'' personas. His most famous opus was the unholy trinity of Cerise/Marolyn/Selena Crumpet. Thanks, David. You're a good sport.

PS Speaking as the Troll Patrol: ''Pam'' and David both post from the same neck of the woods in Australia.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 18:19:31 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: From LG: SC's theory about ''Pam''
Message:
He is right. Its aperson called Lesjohfaith.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:22:56 (EDT)
From: Faith Harper
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: From LG: SC's theory about ''Pam''
Message:
He is right. Its aperson called Lesjohfaith.


---

I was informed today that someone has somehow linked me to an E-mail posted by Pam. I would like whoever has posted this to know that I certainly did not have anything to do with that or any other post.
I do not see Maharaji as my enemy and I have no reason to blacken his name in this way. Faith Harper

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 19:58:44 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Lesjohfaith at checkpoint charlie
Message:
What is this shit. The information(on EPO)is damning . Who cares who's playing smoke & mirror games . I agree with Pat C , put a name to yourself pam & get more specific or fuck off .

Meanwhile what's your agenda CW ? If you like this stuff why don't you say so . You like playing mind games is the conclusion I've reached , not finding the truth .

FUCK YOU

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 20:36:06 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Lesjohfaith at checkpoint charlie
Message:
The 'PAM' excercise is a collaboration. There are three formerly involved but not PAM people who created the little gem you all drooled over.As for you Pat D well you can go fart in the breeze. I was confirming Pat C's investigative powers. Mind games? what do you think the PAM shit was. Those guys got no further than peeling spuds, a bit of PR, and greeting the guests. It's like urban legend shite; except in this case , it's rural legend.......................
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:38:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: You're not always right, Cat
Message:
In fact, you're wrong here. And I would add that I've been quite disappointed by your powers of prognostication lately - you have a way of talking like you KNOW things that later turn out not to be true (Sorry, but that's the way it is).

I can't understand why you, SC, and the other australian premies who post here are so upset by Pam's post - at least one other premie friend of mine confirms much of it independently, as I said earlier. (And this person is still committed to M and K.) Perhaps Pam's post said more about EV in Australia that people would like revealed here.

Anyway, I think you protest too much.

TC,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:22:02 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Wot, me worry?
Message:
Oh I see Katie....

CW, SC, and the other australian premies who post here are 'so upset about Pam'.

Are we?

That's news to me gal.

I'd expect better from you Miss F5 'must be on the level' Queen!

Show me some of evidence of pwks being 'upset' by Pam's post. No, the people upset by it are the ones who want, desperately, hopelessly, to believe it, to make it work, to make it destroy what they don't like. An image in the imagination. No more no less.

But the Pam post won't change anything.
No matter how many awards it wins.

Personally I find it hilarious. I knew EV sucked decades ago. What took them so long?
I can't stand the way the Sydney Entertainment Centre is run either. But do you think that's going to stop me rushing to get my Pink Floyd tickets when they're in town? No way lady!

But nothing's as hilarious as the seriousness people like Pat C take all this internet stuff (and the very reason people like me poke their engourged belly) .
The subtlety of the poke is what counts.

There's no harm done. Except where the innocent are deceived into buying into the internet forum game. That hasn't happened here in a long time, according to the RSPCI figures recently released in the INF InterCyber Assembly.

Remember dudes, if you wanna win, you gotta play the ball, not the man. That's what the silent gallery here watch for.

Real, genuine skill.

Not thundering emotive hyperbole.

And tiresome endless dissitations of mock virtue.

I guarantee that within 5 years there will be clinics worldwide dealing with IFA : internet forum addiction:

If there is any real difference between two camps it's this.

One side knows the playing field is make believe, imagination.

The other believe it's entirely real.

Your choice Freedom Lovers!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:57:16 (EDT)
From: SuCh
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: +soma da players n der raps r make believe,2
Message:
now, check out ma sympitar

http://www.BeyondTheTrees.com/sympb.htm

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 02:03:01 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: SuCh
Subject: Sensational Such!
Message:
Hey thanks a lot for that.

Wow, what magnificant pieces of fine art and craftsmanship.

Man would I like to get my eager hands on one of those beauties!!

Yum yum, I'm going back there for a feast of inspiration. I guess the closest we could get to that sound would be with an Eventide harmoniser or a simple octaver pedal?

mucious gratios swami amigo

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 18:46:11 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Sorry, SC
Message:
The pwk's I know weren't upset by Pam's post - but I thought your 'theory' of tripartite authorship reeked of desperation. Why do you even care?

I really couldn't understand most of your post - perhaps we are just not on the same wavelength...

JMHO, as always.
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:25:26 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Pranam, oh Mahatma SC Ji
Message:
You have realized the knowledge of all knowledges and have seen that this world is maya. You said:

''If there is any real difference between two camps it's this. One side knows the playing field is make believe, imagination. The other believe it's entirely real.''

That is a very astute observation and explains why you had no qualms about posting under numerous aliases and playing disrespectful mischievous mind games with your fellow humans. It probably also explains why Rev Rawat has no morals.

Yes, David, you are definitely onto something there. I think that difference really is the reason that premies and exes cannot communicate without endless misunderstandings. We live on different planets. You're living in maya and I live on earth.

Whew! Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 23:51:15 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Bless you my brother Premiji
Message:
I said Cyberspace is maya Pat. Like Speilberg movies.

The world?

Well, it's just the world isn't it?

Good and bad right and wrong constanly changing.

A fun energetic goodtime trickster. If you know the groundrules.

A sad fearful traumatic journey if you don't.

Thanks heavens for Knowledge!!!

There's coven meeting taking place today in my local woods
(CW note)

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:04:53 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Bless me father for I have sinned
Message:
Well, sorry, David. Duh! I guess you are not as dumb as your bleached blonde female aliases undoubtedly were. I thought I had you by the balls there.

But cyberspace is real too - as real as you want to make it and most of the exes have a desire to make our time here worthwhile and be real and honest with each other.

I hope you aren't implying that Knowledge and Rev Rawat's sermons are equivalent to knowing the ground-rules. You know that's not true. Some people never learn the ropes even with K and M and many others learn them without K and M.

But you can only know that by letting go of the Maharajism non-religious religion. It's only after you have let go of Rawat's religion that you see that more non-premies than premies are truly happy and sane.

What M calls ''that feeling'' is simply being contented, relaxed, alert, feeling nice, feeling great. Most people without K or M feel that way anyway just as much as premies do. If bad things happen premies and non-premies suffer equally.

The whole trap with the Maharaji religion is that you are struggling for something that is already yours and doesn't need to be striven for. In fact everybody's got it all the time and more people without K seem to have figured that out than the premies that I know many of whom are not a scintillatingly cheerful or sane bunch of people. In fact I know several quite disturbed premies. Some on Prozac.

No, K and M are not THE groundrules. They are rules of the game that you're playing and you're welcome to that. I don't like it.

Sure I like to feel great and be filled with the joy of feeling gratitude for the miraculous life, to have peace of mind and be contented, cheerful and loving and warm and playful. But I don't like the cult's secrecy and lies and the first lie is that K is a secret.

You know you could give K just as effectively as M without the dangers of asking for adoration of yourself as the Master but just as a loving friend. But, if K was not a secret, then Rawat would not be able to make money out of it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 02:40:01 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You are free to go my son
Message:
Hey, What you making grabs at my balls for!!?? (what would C think if he knew!)

It's my brain you're really after isn't it? Come on, eh?

he he

Yea I agree, the ground rules have nothing to do with K or M and neither does anyone's credibilty in this world. Tell me, where do the deborahs of this forum get off trying to continually tar us with this brush of fake superior spirituality? Is that how SHE felt when she consided herself a premie? I'll bet it was.
She whined that SC is a 'perfect example' of something. What? That people who practice K and love M are superior or smarter or more blessed than those who aren't interested in that?
Bollocks, what a narrow little window she must peer out of every morning. Poor soul. Send her to Byron Shire (full of every religion under the sun) and maybe she'll learn how NOT to judge others who think and believe completely different things than she does. She may well find that lesson extremely confronting though...:)

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:54:54 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: You are free to go my son
Message:
SC,

In response to your comment about me to Pat:C) below.

You said in your above post, If you know the groundrules.

A sad fearful traumatic journey if you don't.

Thanks heavens for Knowledge!!!

Now, now, do you always go around capitalizing the direct objects in your sentences. Did you mean to use a lower case 'k'? otherwise, This reads JUST like the Credo of Premiedom.

If you want to generalize your philosophy, than why would you speak just like the 'holier than thous' (and you know who they are) and construct your sentences using and emphasizing the exact same words.

Gee, aren't you a writer by trade? In the real world, I assume. Such a dearth and poor choice of words for a man who pens for a living. Don't you write for your intended audience?

Or does that beg the question, 'Who is your intended audience?

But benefit of the doubt, not withstanding, how do YOU discount everything you have said prior to that post? And, why, for heaven's sake, would you be here at this forum for years as multiple aliases and vehemently shooting down exes' and their posts IF you were such an understanding, caring guy who is furthermore a spiritually unjudgemental soul?

Your combined posts to Pat:C) appears to be a 'bait and switch' trick.

What you're still playing is the game of Revisionism, David.

Why not stop it! If you want to come around, and be friendlier, and have you and your statements accepted and maybe even respected then say so.

And, if so, you may want to start by making an apology to all the people you insulted, hurt, and pissed-off with your relentless and vengeful posts.

You attacked the very principles in every ex-premie's posts that your above post perports.

Another thing, you womanized almost every female poster here, and what you said to Abi was beyond womanizing. It made my blood turn to cottage cheese. After reading Abi's post last week, do you have any remorse about what you said and how you said it to her? Did you ever or would you ever consider apologizing to Abi?

Actually, apologizing to Abi, would be a relief and welcomed gesture to every woman on this forum.

Back to your comments:

she whined that SC is a 'perfect example' of something. What? That people who practice K and love M are superior or smarter or more blessed than those who aren't interested in that?

Yes, that was my accusation! I addressed this point.

Bollocks, what a narrow little window she must peer out of every morning. Poor soul.

SC- how confused can you be? If I am an ex-premie, which I obviously am, than how could I look out of that narrow window every morning?

It is this narrow window that the premies (that are here and challenging the exes and other premies that just sub-consciously and instinctively acting out) that is being defended regularly on the forum by the exes. Not to mention the dope about Maha that most premies will never hear thanks to the well securied premie grapevine.

Why did you say that?

Send her to Byron Shire (full of every religion under the sun) and maybe she'll learn how NOT to judge others who think and believe completely different things than she does. She may well find that lesson extremely confronting though...

This suggestive therapy would be better issued at LG and all the apologists. Don't you read their posts? Why is it you never criticize their posts when they blatantly profess and defend these very comments.

You try and come off as a concept free premie and good for you. But if you are what you say you are, than why do your actions speak contrarily. If you are content, show us contentment. If you are so hip, why not recognize the hip in others.

Deborah

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:37:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: You are free to go my son
Message:
You know how you (and Catweasel and CAC) accused me of being moody. That's all part of becoming uncultivated. I've settled down now. Give Deborah a few more months and she'll have you over her knees gently slapping your cute little tush.

But seriously, David, it is not easy walking away from M and most of us new exes go through terrific ups and downs and lashing out defensively etc. It took me months to get used to you and not hate you.

No, it isn't as simple as M says ""If you don't like it - walk."" It's more like crawl away battered and bleeding at first. It is very hard and tears you up emotionally. Remember we once loved him as much as you do. It's like a painful divorce.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:35:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Bless me father for I have sinned
Message:
Hi Pat:C)

Very good post. You, my dear, could not have hit that nail more on the head. That is the underlying 'cultLie' that is holding the premies back. I mean, it's one thing, if you happen to like cults and cultaddicts but most premies are sickened by the possibility that this could be true. No. They have to believe they have something nobody else does that justifies the albeit awkward outward appearances of their life. SC couldn't have clarified that point any better.

Hope you're doing well,

Deborah

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:35:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thanks, Deborah
Message:
I'm fine. I hope you are too.

Yep, it was so obvious. If it was a snake it would have bit me.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 12:07:36 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Bless me father for I have sinned
Message:
Yet another 'I coulda had a V8' moment. Why has this never struck me as odd until reading your post? I hafta just marvel at how I bought into it hook, line and sinker. If there were only one reason to keep EPO up and running it would be to expose the secrecies.

It just seems so convoluted, that knowledge is this big secret initiation. And that's the entrance key into the select countryclub.
I once lived in a small midwestern town that had some of the richest people in the U.S. among its illustrious residents. This, of course, necessitated having a local countryclub. I had never seen such a collective group of competitive, unhappy, chronically ill, self medicating group of people with children that were so screwed up it was a psycology major's goldmine for thesis papers.

I lived there for five years and could never figure out why the kids at the little elementary school divided themselves at the lunch tables according to their parent's income. I mean, after a certain point, being rich is all relative. Then, shortly before I moved, the local cafe owner and steakhouse owner, who had as much money as they did, laughingly told me the funniest thing I had ever heard which completely explained the bizarre behavior. His wife had delusions of grandeur and got an application. He wrote down that he was a 'fry cook' under occupation so they wouldn't admit them after the grand tour. The club members in the dining room separated themselves from each other as if by glass walls, according to income. The $90,000 -$150,000, $150,000-$200,000, $200,000-$350,000 and then the most envied of all, the $350,000 and over.

This dictated who they were friends with, where they could sit and whom they could speak at PTA, Junior League and soccer ball meetings, who was allowed the plum PTA, etc positions and who could only clean up after meetings and fundraisers. It also extended into the medical field, which doctors were connected to each other, lawyers connected to other lawyers, on and on and on.

They had the most incredible homes, because property values were like those of the 60's here, but were terrified to let each other in lest they would be critisized. They wouldn't shop locally at some Macy level type department stores, but flew to Chicago with magazines to copy outfits out of, their faith in their own taste was non existant. But their biggest paranoia of all was being demoted by someone else in their pecking order by a newcomer, or someone's income instantly increasing. It was especially funny when a local college boy made a few upgrades to his computer and started his own company. You may have heard of it, Gateway 2000. Suddenly this kid with a suspected drug preference was on local banks boards of directors and dining with the political bigwigs. He owned not only that town, but had carte blanche to a couple of states.

Money and secrecy make human beings crazy. Elan Vital and m have taken this combination to new heights. Adding the lord of the universe and inner peace and the reason for human life on this planet, well, there it is, a cocktail for a dog eat dog world. I actually think dogs treat each other far better. There are very few dog fights on the open California beaches where dog walking is allowed.

Secret knowledge sessions indeed!

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 13:41:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Secrets, lies and videotapes
Message:
Thanks for your story. I had a good laugh. I thought it must be some town in Iowa or somewhere in the midwest full of nouveaux riches and then you mentioned Chicago.

Well, Vicki, when I first got out 9 months ago that was the first time that I began to see the importance of keeping K secret but it really was not until yesterday that I realized that that was the root cause of the entire cult deceit. That K is secret is the first cult lie. From then on nothing is true. It's all lies and secrets after that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 16:45:56 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Secrets, lies and videotapes
Message:
As they say at the Ren faire, 'Huzzah!!!'

Isn't it funny, as in no laughing matter, how long it takes to get this stuff figured out? How in the world did a little 13 yr old boy from India put this tangled world together?

Give yourself 5 bonus points- it was Iowa!

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:16:43 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: The 13 yo Hindu inherited the scam
Message:
...from daddy who ripped it off from the Radhasoamis who got it from the Sikhs who heard it from Kabir who got it from his Patanjali yoga guru. Unnfortunately Kabir also read the Gita with all it's mystical mumbo-jumbo. The ''secret'' K has been around for a long time. It's just amazing that educated Hindus have not debunked it.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 20:52:34 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: The 13 yo Hindu inherited the scam
Message:
Okay, I finally get it, and I did read through all the history on EPO, but that kinda put it in a Reader's Digest Abridged form! Now, would you have a second to further blow my long indoctrinated concepts for me? Kabir and these guys, they weren't lord incarnates either? Believe it or not, I figured they were cuz you know who always quotes them.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 21:29:08 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Gurujism 101
Message:
Since Shiva, whose devotees were called bhaktas, (meaning participants in a cult of guru-worship) Hinduism has always had guru-worshipping cults and guru is greater than god because he reveals god.

(Interestingly Dionysus, the god of Mount Nysa, where Shiva lived, had devotees called bacchante. Earlier this year I read a book speculating that they were the same ancient god of ecstasy.)

When the Aryans invaded India they tried to get rid of Shiva worship by replacing him with Vishnu a much less primitive god. Rama and Krishna were incarnations of the Aryan Vishnu. Most ''civilized'' Hindus worship Vishnu/Rama/Krishna but there still are popular Shivite cults but no incarnations of him.

The guru is usually seen as the incarnation/avatar of Krishna. I don't have the quote with me here at work but Chapter 11 of the Bahgavad Gita states gurujism perfectly.

Bhakti (ecstatic love) will reveal the human as divine such as when Krishna's mother saw the entire universe in her little son's mouth or Arjuna saw the many-headed Brahman in Krishna his charioteer.

Remember India does not have much of a culture of romantic love. They still arrange marriages. Guru-worship was the most ecstatic love they had. In the west poets and artists have also seen god in the loved ones.

The sound technique stimulates that part of the brain which houses the imagination. In Hinduism the belief is that, by stimulating that, you begin to become one with the IMAGINATION that created the universe.

But in the west we regard that part of the brain as responsible for feeling ''high'' and having visions such as ''Alice in Wonderland'' or Van Gogh's ''Starry Night.'' Or also the Tooth Fairy, Santa and the bogeyman. It can be stimulated by drugs, electrodes and shabd yoga (sound tech.)

It was this tendency to hallucinate and imagine stuff that made Patanjali (the first writer about yoga) caution against having concepts of what god is.

Yes, all Hindu gurus claim to be greater than god from long before Kabir. Kabir was also an alcoholic.

I prefer to practice bhakti between consenting adults in the privacy of my own home.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:58:03 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Gurujism 101
Message:
Crikey! I'll have to read this a few times to take it all in! Thanks for explaining it in plain English.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 10:35:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Know something that we don't, Katie?
Message:
In fact, you're wrong here. And I would add that I've been quite disappointed by your powers of prognostication lately - you have a way of talking like you KNOW things that later turn out not to be true (Sorry, but that's the way it is).

I can't understand why you, SC, and the other australian premies who post here are so upset by Pam's post - at least one other premie friend of mine confirms much of it independently, as I said earlier. (And this person is still committed to M and K.) Perhaps Pam's post said more about EV in Australia that people would like revealed here.

Anyway, I think you protest too much.

TC,
Katie


---

In fact, you're wrong here.

How do you know? A fair bit of energy's been wasted on this speculation about Pam and whether or not he or she is for real. This isn't an RE secret, is it? Or can't you say?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:00:20 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Know something that we don't, Katie?
Message:
Sheesh, you're obsessed by RE! Don't you think people here have any other means of private communication?

Yes, sometimes I do know stuff that other people on here don't know - and even that the people on RE don't know, but it is because people have told me things in confidence.

I already have said at least once on this forum that I think Pam is real based on the information in his/her letter, and on corroboration from other sources - I don't know what else I can do to stop speculation. I do think having one's identity doubted (by ex-premies) makes one less likely to post again. And I think the Australian premies (or 'premie', maybe) ARE protesting way too much in this case - which ought to be a clue.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:19:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Know something that we don't, Katie?
Message:
I already have said at least once on this forum that I think Pam is real based on the information in his/her letter, and on corroboration from other sources - I don't know what else I can do to stop speculation.

Me, personally, I have no problem with Pam's legitimacy and always thought doubting it was a pathetic premie response. But, seeing as they've made an issue of it, it would be nice to get some confirmation. If Pam's not willing to say who he or she is, perhaps they can do something more, get someone to vouch for them. Are you able to do that? Do you know who Pam is? As it is, John won't publish the letter on EPO, something many people want, without some further contact or clear corroboration.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 11:34:50 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Know something that we don't, Katie?
Message:
No, I don't know who Pam is, sorry. All I know is that CW and SC are wrong in THEIR guess about who Pam is.

I wish Pam would e-mail John too - I can vouch for John's ability to keep things absolutely confidential.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:29:00 (EDT)
From: Here you go again
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: telling the universe what I think
Message:
I have not once, not anywhere on the internet, stated any names or initials of people connected with the Pam post.

Where do you guys get off?

or rather....how!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 18:40:54 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Here you go again
Subject: I don't even know who you are - good grief!
Message:
You didn't even sign your post, so I doubt that I can be implicated in 'telling people what you think' - whoever you are...
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 02:12:27 (EDT)
From: Dear gullible ones..
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: PAM is...
Message:
a transparent hoax by Lesley Veale and her compatriots that's embarrassing their friends and loved ones in Byron and environs. It's neither accurate nor close to being first-hand. It's recycled Dettmers (V2.14 beta) detritus multiplied by local Aussie politics and marinated in family squabbles with a dash of I-wasn't-invited-itis. Toxic matter that requires neither envelope nor postage to spread its infection. Just parrots.

And you're buying it wholesale. Inhaling it into your systems as if it were nourishing. Food for doubt, yum!! So what if it isn't mine, it must be true. Let's eat!

While the world we all live in is battling for survival, goodness and sanity, you're busy spreading gossip and bullshit about Maharaji, who you once perhaps knew and loved, who is introducing people to the sweetest, highest and most centrally located part of themselves while excluding or trashing no one. What a worthy target.

Go figure.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:48:37 (EDT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Dear gullible ones..
Subject: Hm, I think an apology is in order
Message:
I would not have replied; either you don't know me, or you are currently entertaining an insultingly odd view of the way I think; but I must assume that your last comment was addressed to me, even though I am not Pam, and I would like to respond.

You said 'While the world we all live in is battling for survival, goodness and sanity, you're busy spreading gossip and bullshit about Maharaji, who you once perhaps knew and loved, who is introducing people to the sweetest, highest and most centrally located part of themselves while excluding or trashing no one. What a worthy target.'

First of all, I am not spreading gossip and bullshit about Mr Rawat; apart from the signal pleasure, in those first mornings after I became an ex-premie, of realising afresh that I was not going to meditate; it was also an instant relief, not having to bother about the goings on in 'the world of Knowledge', I have been having a well earned rest, and do not intend to break it, ever.

That does not mean that I have stopped caring about the people I know, whether they are premies or not. And I do feel concerned at the levels of deceit that are routinely perpetrated on the ordinary premies, even though I understand that this is caused by the desire to protect Maharaji; what is being covered up is really mainly Mr Rawat's doings, and the doings of people who are directly under his influence.

What is felt as a good, virtuous protective loving action towards 'the sweetest, highest and most centrally located part' of oneself, is, in action, keeping information from people which could protect them because it would change the way they view Mr Rawat. I consider this highly disrespectful to those people, it is hoodwinking them.

And so I applaud Pam, it is dead gutsy to break the taboos and talk about the dysfunctional stuff of our cult family, something Pam has done with warmth, humour and compassion.

Another thing I have enjoyed since becoming an ex premie is being wholely and solely responsible for representing myself alone; being free to fully respond to my own conscience and my own wishes.

I am still unsure about the parameters of what I should and should not feel a sense of responsibility for, I got pretty confused over that during my time as a premie, what with 'the Lord' an' all; however, I am confident in saying that the current world situation, for sure, does not rest on my shoulders.

Best regards, Lesley Veale

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:42:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Well said, Lesley...kudos to you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:16:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: What a fantastic comeback!
Message:
Good one, Lesley!

By the way, why you? Why would this guy (who forgot to sign his name, must have been in a hurry -- SC?) accuse you of, ahem, pamming the forum? Did you fly with the best bats high in the rafters?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 17:26:34 (EDT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: thanks Jim, no bats in my rafters!
Message:
Why me?, well, of course, I have got some unsubstantiated ideas, lol:

I will confess I have been a bit of a 'beragon burner', after such a lot of keeping quiet, I have been making up for lost time, and engaging my friends in conversation that is stimulating to me. I guess Catweasel just thought of me first, though in this instance, he has got the wrong end of the mallet. That mixed up name was a combination of three recent exes from Byron Shire.

All the best, Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:34:57 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Me use a PC?
Message:
Not me Jimbo, ever .

:)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 02:34:48 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Dear gullible ones..
Subject: Re: PAM is...
Message:
So if you're so busy with the lofty ambitions of k and m and world peace, why are you wasting precious moments here?

It really doesn't matter if the facts were recycled or not. It doesn't even matter if they were new or not. There's enough that is factual. Don't you get it? If everything concerning knowledge and m and elan vital was honest, above board and out in the open, there would be no EPO.

I've got an arsenal of substantiated facts that I haven't posted, out of consideration for the wife and kids of m. It's called decency. Look up the definition.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 02:53:52 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Is your consideration misplaced?
Message:
Vicki,

You say:-

I've got an arsenal of substantiated facts that I haven't posted, out of consideration for the wife and kids of m. It's called decency. Look up the definition.

Maharaji's wife and children are complicit in the financial scam if nothing else. Please reconsider whether they are deserving of your consideration. Of course the information you have may be nothing but details of their personal lives that have no bearing on Maharaji's con game, but if you do have information that will help us have a clearer understanding of Maharaji, then please consider posting.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:33:09 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Is your consideration misplaced?
Message:
Yep, just personal stuff. Phew, what a can of worms I got myself into!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:02:09 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Try fishing
Message:
With all those worms I suggest you take up fishing, as I was trying to do:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:49:18 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I'll take the high road with Vicki
Message:
To me it is sufficient that the cult is a secretive, dysfunctional, money-making scam to damn Rev Rawat. There really is no need for the dirt. I have to admit that I have never been interested in gossip about celebrities.

Also, I don't want to hurt anyone not even Rev Rawat. To me it is enough of a difficult task to try to communicate to my premie friends that they can still have all the good stuff they have as premies without the baggage of an embarassing cult and money-grubbing master.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:26:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Screw that!
Message:
Pat,

As one learns doing the work I do, it's hard to tell when enough is enough. Who's to say how many corroborative witnesses it takes to make a point with a jury? How many precedents to persuade a judge? As far as I'm concerned, the wife and adult children of a fraudulent and extremely wealthy cult leader, a guy whose entire family business, all baranches, all generations, has been nothing but the perpetuation of this exploitation, are all fair game. God, for all we know, he's grooming the 'kids' even now to keep the machine oiled, running and profitable when dad retires. Or not. They're all involved in this gross deceit, people continue to not 'get it' and the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth just might make a difference.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:59:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Screw that! Okay!
Message:
I'm all for revelations of a personal nature as long as it doesn't deteriorate to tabloid levels. The insiders' info helps many of us to demystify Rawat and detox ourselves but I also know that speculation and second-hand gossip makes my premie friends even more defensive.

I was probably lecturing myself, Jim, as I have a tendency to hyperbole and flambuoyance. Thank god I don't know any personal info. I'd have probably sold it to the tabloids by now.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:04:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Screw that!
Message:
I agree, Jim.

Marolyn is older than Maharaji and the kids are grown up, benefitting from the profits of their father's guru business. I don't see any reason not to put everything out on the table, even it it is a bit messy.

IMO, as long as m's family--that includes his adult children continue to live off of cult money--any information is fair game. I'm particularly disgusted with Marolyn who has been part of the scam for decades. I'd like to know more about her life because she has supported Maharaji in his cult-a-rama for so long.

She isn't ''Durga Ji'' after all, but a cult-leader's wife. She's part of the cult or at least plays the part. The whole family lives in the residences, drives the expensive autos, flies in the planes, and floats on the big boat--in essence, a life of opulence, paid for by premies.

I want to know all the dirt. Why should they be protected? When the children were young, I'd agree with Pat. Coming forth with information about the family might even give any one of them a way out, if that's what they desire.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 05:10:04 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Looks more like the Gutter
Message:
But Pat. Te Pam thing is B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T. - it is essentially libellous . Are you saying you approve of and condone such scurrilous attempts at recreating history. Well after all I've read from you! I'll be fucked. Who would have guessed?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:31:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: ***CW's got a blurb too*** (JHB?)
Message:
Johb,

Hate to bug you but if you ever put up the PAM post (which I thought was excellent, by the way, and which I feel no reason to doubt authenticity-wise), you could put this endorsement:

...essentially libellous
Catweasle

Not libellous, mind you.

still laughing from the OTHER one

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 09:21:55 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Looks more like the Gutter
Message:
Some premies seem almost desperate to convince everyone that Pam is a hoax. What I know from other, independent sources validates much of what Pam posted. Why the frantic attempts to make sure everyone is convinced that this is a hoax? Scared, premies? You know that whether this was posted by one person or a group, is nearly irrelevant. Most, if not all, of it is true. One more fire to put out for the premies, though. That must get tiresome, always and forever doing damage control. When do you have time to enjoy this wonderful ''Bliss'' that rawat ''gave'' you, even though it is already inside you? Do you never wonder why you adore this oh, so imperfect master who claims to be the perfect master? It is not meditation, or any inner experience one can achieve that I have trouble with. My problem is with rawat and his lies, deceit, greed, and truly disgusting lifestyle. This is a great teacher? I think not.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 04:22:43 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Is keeping quiet the 'high road'
Message:
Pat,

As I don't know what Vicki knows I can't judge whether it's tabloid type gossip, or serious improprieties. I'm just asking Vicki that if it's the latter, then she should consider whether keeping quiet is in the best interest of the victims of the cult. Whatever the Rawat children's guilt or innocence is, Marolyn is definitely in this up to her neck.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 12:26:09 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Is keeping quiet the 'high road'?
Message:
Well, I absolutely agree with you that Marolyn is up to her neck in this. What I have chosen not to divulge is only connected to underage children.

Personally, if we feel we were brainwashed, hoodwinked, taken for a ride, then I can't even begin to understand what it must be like to have m for a biological father.

And to tell you the truth, I was mad at myself for posting that immediatley afterwards. If I knew how to remove posts, I would have. It seemed hypocritical of me to say something and not follow it up. I felt mad, which actually surprised me, that if this is indeed a bunch of sanctomonious (sp) premies sitting around writing this, then it is just so offensive in the hypocracies.

The point I was trying to make was that people on this forum have a conscience, IMO, and don't go around trying to hurt people, premies or non-premies. It's like the madness that infects this world comes down to not having a basic line of decency. To me that includes underage children. Premies say ex's are hurtful spreading lies about m, k and ev, but people here try to be as accurate and substantiated as possible. We want real facts, not more fantasy. That's why PAM postings are valuable. Firsthand, eyewitness accounts.

Now if I'm called into court with a subpoena (sp), it would be a different thing altogether. And yes, I agree that m's kids are living a high falootin' rootin tootin lifestyle thanks to premies.....unless they believe their dad that his patents and business ventures support them in the lifestyle, courtesy of premies, to which they were born. I remeber a satsang-sorry discourse- not that long ago that m said he had to sit his family down and tell them that he was travelling the world spreading knowledge long before they arrived on the scene, and that his priority would still be. It sounded like they didn't want dad flying his globe trotting jet around the earth constantly. With all the money he has, they have to know he doesn't need to, but hey, if it's service, err seva, then that must make a kid feel like he's second class to thousands of people lavishing adoration at the feet of their dad, unless of course you receive knowledge and become part of the roadshow.

I was thinking yesterday how Marolyn told her story once at an event, of how she came to receive knowledge, and that on the day of her k session, she had to work. She was going to call in sick but thought, how does a person go seeking truth with a lie? So she was getting ready to hit the friendly skies and a bottle fell on her foot in the shower, cutting it. Oh, happy days, grace cut her cut so she could truthfully call in sick and go to the knowledge session. I just wonder when did the truths she has seen all these years, which have dissentegrated into so many lies, get justified as lila?

So I apologize to Jim and others if what I said seems hypocritical. I don't want to stoop to these premie's level of hate and deceit. I've never seen anyone here stoop to that level. Pat can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's what he meant by the high rode.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 14:08:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: If Marolyn told all that would be the high road
Message:
Actually, Vicki, I've said things impulsively here that I later regretted because I was feeling emotional and, when the emotion cleared, I saw that I had been indiscrete. That's what the CAC attack against me was all about. My indiscretions. I guessed that you had regrets and was just trying to get you off the hook.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 01:22:36 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Glad to see clarity returning Mr Consome
Message:
'That's what the CAC attack against me was all about.'

Woa! :) A gold nuggett!! :)

The hansard has recorded your candid admission (confession) for future use.

Pat - you gotta learn when to shut up!

Would you like lessons from the Master.... errr... and Mistress internet commuicators?

Selena charges US$75 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet blabbering!

Marolyn charges US$85 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'simple wisdom' proffering.

Cerise charges US$95 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'cool sharp incisive wit' sharing.

Rob Setton charges US$85 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'factual truth' sharing.

Monsignor Monsign charges US$75 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'specialised humour' sharing.

David Whitla charges US$65 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'this is who they say I am' sharing.

Cabeza De Vaca charges US$125 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'profound inner vision' sharing.

The other six are probably a little out of your price range.

Special Winter Rates apply from November!

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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 03:17:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: David, twice after the CAC attack
Message:
.......I apologised and admitted that I had been stupid to gossip about premies when my real goal is to just tell the truth about my dislike of the cult. I guess you did not read those posts.

And don't tell me to learn to shut up. You have put your foot in your mouth almost as many times as I have. Those multiple personalities of yours have been overcharging you.

I learn from my mistakes. I hope you do too. Now how come you've never apologised to me for playing mind-fucking games with me with all your aliases especially when you know I'm a soft touch and completely fell in love with Cerise?

That was dirty and I won't forgive you for that until you say sorry. You broke this dirty old man's heart.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:31:15 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I'm sorry Pat, it was childish and cruel
Message:
It was my way of coping with a hostile new environment. Pretending not to be there!
I admit I am a wild uncrotrollable loopehead who can create a nice harmonious picture of love and harmony, and then fuck it up in a flash of wild uncrotrollable loopeheadedness? What makes us creative types like this - when we are only looking to share love and goodwill with people? Beats me. I think we react over emotionally to other people's darkness maybe.

Yes, I aplogise for the indiscretions, but can say with all sincerity that we WOULD get on that well in person, so please hold onto the affection you developed for those characters for they are all part of the same magnificent painting/portrait.

And that'll be $17.95

!!:)

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:16:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Are we in a trust-building phase?
Message:
SC,

If you really want to establish even a modicum of trust here, why not come clean? By that I mean, telling us who you are and who you've posted as before? For starters, you're David R, right? And you posted as _______ and ________ and _______ too, didn't you?

If that's too much to ask, I'd say that any trust you'd ever hope to engender here would be pretty seriously limited.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 19:33:58 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Are we in a trust-building phase?
Message:
Jim, David did fess up in a post just above. He said:

Selena charges US$75 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet blabbering!

Marolyn charges US$85 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'simple wisdom' proffering.

Cerise charges US$95 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'cool sharp incisive wit' sharing.

Rob Setton charges US$85 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'factual truth' sharing.

Monsignor Monsign charges US$75 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'specialised humour' sharing.

David Whitla charges US$65 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'this is who they say I am' sharing.

Cabeza De Vaca charges US$125 per hour for guaranteed 'hook free' years of happy internet 'profound inner vision' sharing.

The other six are probably a little out of your price range.

David did not name the other six but I figure they were the minor ones who only made one or two posts or were ''premies'' on LG. Also he has twice signed posts to me on LG with his real name. We also have mutual acquaintances who, while now expremies, still like him with the caveat that he is the incarnation of Walter Mitty. Several of them were at his recent 51st birthday party. He's on the level.

I think his agenda here is to save us from rotting like veggies and he is not malicious.

Also he is a writer and vain as hell and knows a discriminating and intelligent audience when he sees one like this forum.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:06:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: If that's the case he owes Abi an apology
Message:
Wasn't 'Cerise' the 'person' who made that 'rogue elephant' comment?

This guy owes her one big, big, big apology for that one. There's no getting past it either. No compromise, no nothing. Abi's comfort here is paramount, in my view. David W (or is it David R? I'm still confused) simply has to resolve that, if he can, before I'd ever talk with him.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 04:01:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: If that's the case he owes Abi an apology
Message:
I had forgotten about that, Jim. Yes, I'm sure David will rue the day that he ever said that. He must have been carried way with writer's vanity when he said it - intoxicated by the cleverness of his turn of phrase.

Yes, if he is the decent guy that I am willing to believe he is, then he will offer Abi a public apology for that.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:50:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: SC
Subject: Apology gratefully accepted
Message:
......and graciously offered. Yes, I know we would have a lot of fun together - if you didn't drive me bonkers first with your Walter Mittyisms.

Yes, I do understand about the hostile environment thingy. If you promise not to tell any more fibs, I'll stick up for you here. Yes, I will. I am very loyal - after all I stuck with a guru whom I did not really like for 28 years because I loved him. Not a good relationship for me. He of course didn't even notice when I came or when I left.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 21:03:23 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Spudpeelers and guest greeters
Message:
You may well be right .

All I can say CW is that you & I are on the wrong side of a line .

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 13:59:45 (EDT)
From: How much do I need to contribute
Email: None
To: All
Subject: to become a Visions sponsor?
Message:
When the sponsorship program began, basic monthly levels of $50 and $75 were suggested to give some idea of what it would take to support the effort. But these figures were in no waymeant to set limits--on either end of the scale. Currently there are people sponsoring at all levels, from $10 per month to more than $500 per month. This support is meant to be an opportunity to participate, at whatever level is comfortable.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:04:17 (EDT)
From: Can I change
Email: None
To: How much do I need to contribute
Subject: my sponsorship amount?
Message:
Monthly amounts can always be adjusted by a simple call to the toll-free sponsorship phone line. No one should hesitate to begin with whatever amount feels right. Every contribution counts! The sponsorship program needs and values all who wish to participate.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:13:13 (EDT)
From: Don't my contributions to E.V.
Email: None
To: Can I change
Subject: cover the broadcast and materials projects?
Message:
Contributions to Elan Vital primarily fund the international tours and events, and the Knowledge conference centers; those to Visions fund the broadcast and material projects. Contributions to Visions are tax deductible and tallied with those you send to Elan Vital to produce a combined yearly tax receipt. But the accounts are kept distinct and separate, allowing you to express your personal preference for the projects you would like to support.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:18:34 (EDT)
From: Why is my support still needed
Email: None
To: Don't my contributions to E.V.
Subject: if access to broadcasts is now free?
Message:
Free access to broadcasts was motivated by a desire to make Maharaji's message more available to a vast audience, NOT because of an overabundance of funds. This took a leap of faith! Viewing may be free but production and satellite broadcasting is incredibly expensive and funding is falling far short. Your support is needed more than ever to keep this effort going.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:21:51 (EDT)
From: May I give to both
Email: None
To: Why is my support still needed
Subject: the EV and Visions projects???
Message:
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I made this one up. The above 4 questions were part of a mailer I got today from Visions...

all I can say is that Yorum the bag man will be coming to your community soon...

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:20:55 (EDT)
From: Ex-Pam
Email: None
To: Why is my support still needed
Subject: Can you supply facts?
Message:
Do you have any information about how much money is raised this way, and how much is spent on the various things you talk about?

For example, how much do the satellite broadcasts cost? How much money is taken in for them? How do you know that funding is 'falling short?' Are any figures ever made public?

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:27:56 (EDT)
From: Yoram Weiss
Email: None
To: Ex-Pam
Subject: Yes
Message:
I will attempt to answer you very unsynchronized questions:

Question: How much money is raised this way?

Answer: Not enough, never enough, Maharaji needs lots more to do his very important work in bringing peace and happiness to the entire world, that he loves so much he is working his fingers to the bone trying to tell them about Knowledge and really giving it to them. [One moment please, while I wring my hands together and laugh..I mean, wipe a tear of gratitude from my eye.]

Question: How much do satellite broadcasts cost?

Answer: Lots and lots of money and Maharaji does not have enough to pay for them and so we need the ungrateful premies to give more. Maharaji told me this just the other day while we were flying on his private helicopter to the landing pad on his $7 million yacht.

Question: How do we know funding is falling short?

Answer: Because Maharaji doesn't have enough money, that's why. He never does, you know, that's why he has to live in a delapidated house in bad neighborhood in Malibu. It's criminal that ungrateful devotees treat the Master this way.

Question: Are any figures ever made public?

Answer: You have got to be kidding. As we used to say back in Israel, OY VEY!!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:10:18 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Can I change
Subject: Re: my sponsorship amount????
Message:
Thank you How Much, I know I have an automatic deduction from my credit card for a lot of money so I get to be a Visions sponsor. I'm sure much of the money goes towards keeping Wadi Sue and Daylata in the newest and best Mercedes Benz convertibles, which are absolute necessities in Southern California. In the slummy area of Malibu where they are forced to practically camp out in their delapidated house, having those nice cars is one of the few pleasures in their very hard lives, other than Knowledge and the frequent darshan, that is.

And I, like Erika Andersen, know for certain that the money only goes to really good things, like DVDs, videos, publications and helping bring the 14 people who received knowledge this year in the USA to have THAT experience and THAT love, and have THAT participation opportunity to also get their credit cards involved.

The reason that both I and Erika Andersen know for certain, is that we both have reviewed carefully the bar charts on the Elan Vital website. After seeing them, who could possibily have any concerns that money being sent for propagation, isn't going towards gold toilets for Maharaji and Donna Karran suits and the very best cognac for Valario Pascotto, Raja Ji and Gurucharanand? I know I don't.

And from what I hear, even Tim Galway uses his credit card to help quell claims of child sexual molestation so it won't reflect negatively on Maharaji. I bet he has an automatic deduction made as well, and I bet it's lots more than $10. I'm sure he is a Visions sponsor.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 15:05:33 (EDT)
From: Tim Gallstones
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: The Inner Game of Cult Scamming
Message:
Thanks Pauline, with your permission I'll use this in my next book. If only I can find a publisher...for some reason each book I've written gets less and less buyers

Banking on Phase II,

Tim

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 18:01:40 (EDT)
From: Your Book Editor
Email: None
To: Tim Gallstones
Subject: Re: The Inner Game of Cult Scamming
Message:
Yes, I thought 'The Inner Game of Cleaning the Septic Tank' would do much better than it did.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 13:16:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What if Dettmers had joined RE?
Message:
Following up on my conversation with Mike Finch yesterday, I've been thinking further on the pros and cons of a private, alternative forum where people don't hvae to worry about premie invasions, confrontation from other exes or publication, even description, elsewhere, of their conversations. It was interesting reading Dermot's posts. See, I never knew Mike Finch. Apparently, he was a fairly high profile PAM in England. I do recall the hubub to that effect when he first posted. So it was interesting watching Dermot's sensitive and careful appeal to Mike to post a bit more out here, in the open, as it were, so that he, Dermot, and all the rest of us, exes, premies and lurkers of any kind, could benefit from his experiences and reflections.

It got me thinking. What if Dettmers had somehow gotten into posting on RE? Can you imagine? First, it's not hard to imagine him taking that turn. He's a guy who well might have wanted to keep a decidedly low profile even while finding a few other exes to share and debrief with. Surely, if he didn't feel that way before he started posting he might have done so after. Remember how hard a time he got from so many here? Civilly and otherwise, many possters, exs and premies, challenged him in all sorts of ways. Exes pressured him on his confidentiality agreement and cashout deal. And that was just for starters. As a group, we wanted to know everything. Many times we were less than patient or polite in asking. And premies? Well, they gave him an even harder time. He was subjected to many crass (albeit transparent) character assassination efforts. What some of us got a taste of in the CAC portrait studio, Dettmers got full blown on the forum.

Fortunately though, for him and us, Mike stayed. He weathered all those challenges and, as we saw with our own eyes, underwent some profound and honest growth and understanding as a result. It was only after extensive dialogue and communication with many of the people here that Mike was able to finally come to terms with his real feelings about Maharaji the man and the deep disappointment he engenders in those who trusted him.

Anyway, because Mike did do this all in the open many, many people have benefitted immeasurably. Could the same ever be said if Mike said a fast 'hi' here, tested the waters, found them a bit choppy and then headed for safe harbour in RE rarely to be seen again? Somehow, I doubt it. Somehow, I think that if he found a cozy crew to bounce things around with outside of public glare and scrutiny, he might never have been so candid, at times raw even (raw for Dettmers, I mean :) ), if this wasn't the only place he could really interact with his former fellow cult members. Thank God for him and thank god for the many people his posts meant so much to.

The same can be said for any important witness to our common history. What if Anth, Maharaji's kids' former tutor, had decided he preferred the less combative tones of RE? Or donner, a super important PAM (in his time, that is :) ). Donner's kind of a spiritual guy and he's taken a bit of flak for some of how he's talked about that stuff from ... from ... well, from me I guess. And others (surely there are others!?). But, thankfully, donner's hung in there and has contributed priceless testimony to this living history, such as it is.

Now, let me be clear, I am NOT suggesting that RE people not post there. I AM suggesting that they never forget the value that public dialogue can have, for themselves as well as others. RE isn't that. This is.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 16:17:51 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What if Dettmers had joined RE?
Message:
Out in the open is the only way to go , at least for people who can fill in the blanks .

The rest of this is to Mike Finch , I haven't looked in here for the past week although I've skimmed throug the relevant thread.

Hi Mike , I shared a taxi with you on the way to the London Latvian night dinner & sat opposite you . That was a very peculiar event wasn't it ? A bunch of people who'd never met each other(mostly) before , getting together to talk about someone we didn't believe in ( to various degrees) anymore .

The thing about the internet , whether for good or ill , is that there are few social nicieties & no distractions from addressing a specific conversation , should one wish to .

It's down to the nitty gritty.

The thing I particularly wanted to know about then but never got round to asking & still do , is this : is it true that you were one of the people who brought Maha to the West & helped set him up in the style to which he has become accustomed ?

I ask from curiosity , not loathing , in my own small way I helped him become what he now is too .

Can't write at greater length , dinner's ready.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:32:42 (EDT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Your questions
Message:
Hi Pat

I shared a taxi with you on the way to the London Latvian night dinner & sat opposite you .

Yes, I remember it well !

The thing I particularly wanted to know about then but never got round to asking & still do , is this : is it true that you were one of the people who brought Maha to the West & helped set him up in the style to which he has become accustomed ?

No, I didn't actually bring him to the West. But I drove him around when he first arrived, and took him to various shops, such as Harrods and Harvey Nicholls, so I suppose in a sense I introduced him to the high life.

I was among those who got him to USA though. That trip was paid for by the then active US premies (all 5 of them !), but it was hard getting him a US visa (he was under age, and his legal guardian, Mata Ji, was opposed, etc). I spent several days, all day, with him at the US consulate in London, going to interviews with US officials and endless waiting.

-- Mike

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:50:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Your experiences!
Message:
Fascinating stuff, Mike. I had no idea.

Listen, can you remember, what did you think then? Did you believe that Maharaji was a living incarnation of God? What did he say in that respect?

And then, as years, decades went by, did you stay a PAM? Did you continue to see M like before? How did your views change? What did he say? What did he do?

Really, Mike, if, once you figure out your agenda you find that it includes helping thousands of other people better understand M and the life they took up because they trusted him, you simply have to tell your story, every last drop of it. I mean, if you find that comports with your agenda, of course.

:)

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:46:39 (EDT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Your experiences!
Message:
Fascinating stuff, Mike. I had no idea...Listen, can you remember, what did you think then?

Yes, I remember it as if it were yesterday !

Did you believe that Maharaji was a living incarnation of God?

Absolutely, no question.

And then, as years, decades went by, did you stay a PAM?

My career as a premie went up and down like a yo-yo; times of great intimacy with M interspersed with years of being in outer darkness, where every fiber of my being was spent in climbing the slippery ladder back up to the inner circle.

Really, Mike, if, once you figure out your agenda you find that it includes helping thousands of other people better understand M and the life they took up because they trusted him, you simply have to tell your story, every last drop of it. I mean, if you find that comports with your agenda, of course.

Yes, I am coming to that conclusion. It will take me a few days to sort it all out, particularly in writing. I have no great revelations though, nothing like Dettmers. Just personal stuff.

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 03:57:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Your experiences!
Message:
You said: ''I have no great revelations though, nothing like Dettmers. Just personal stuff.''

That's just what us former cult peons love, Mike. Remember we all once loved him like we had never ever loved anyone else before. He was our god once. This is our chance to write the history instead of having to put up with the revisionist pap and fibs of the official cult sites.

We made the history (you especially) and we are entitled to write the history. This forum is part of the historical archives.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 17:12:13 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: PatD
Subject: Re: What if Dettmers had joined RE?
Message:
Hi Pat
I remember that evening with bemusement too. And yourself stepping forward and saying 'Hi, I'm Binliner'. This coming from a distinguished looking fellow of middle years. Can't remember everyone there but do remember slowly being relaxed in a crowd of total strangers. I believe a version of Arti was sung at some ungodly hour and under the influence of Bekorovka for those that drank alcohol. It was completely surreal for me as I cannot drink but managed a mild contact high.
Yep, I think this forum is wothwhile despite it's 'flaming' and battles.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:41:30 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
I felt shocked and ashamed to be refused admission to the recent exes forum. I have been traumatized by my years in the cult and I thought it might provide one more arena to discuss the issues involved. I don't believe it is properly advertized with its prominent space on the ex-premie.org forums page. It implies that this forum is unsafe, which I don't like. I'm sorry I didn't respond directly but I felt I needed help in this matter.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:29:37 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Re: Recent Exes Forum
Message:
On the subject of the Recent-Exes Forum - 'sensitive persons club' - which seems to have attracted some criticism and scorn. I am quite sympathetic to, and absolutely see the need for this establishment but can see that it is really not for everyone.

I actually was permitted there myself ages ago although I am not a frequenter. This is a free world and people can do as they wish. If they choose to make judgements about people for membership that's understandable. I can appreciate that they want to keep people out who have been seen to be aggressive/ flaming etc. on this forum. (That would hardly bode well for their future there).

I happen to have never posted there simply because for me it is important to be more outspoken and public. If I was told I was unsuitable for entry there I would probably ask why and feel misjudged but I don't think it's worth blubbing about too much frankly.

Steve, was your rejection was not entirely surprising since I recall that when you first posted on this forum you were, if I remember correctly, pretty aggressive in tone? Whatever - you seemed to me to have dropped that and are perfectly sociable these days.

But, what the hell, you can post here still. You're surely not a retiring flower and as such need not feel that that this rejection matters in the least. Neither should died-in the-wool hardy combatant Jim H feel the slightest wounds from being smartly rejected from the exclusive realm of the sensitive-ones . I am sure he would expect this. Personally I think those who grumble about the preferences of those less hardy exes - and who suggest that they are going from one cult to another -are actually demonstrating a little sour grapes and are not thinking altogether straight. Lack of tolerance towards RE is a little questionable in my mind. Live and let live.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:57:31 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Some ridiculous things you've said Patrick
Message:
For a start I dont think ANYONE has said it shouldn't exist.

So you are implying that a main criteria for rejection is agression/flaming? Well I know people on there who've been agressive to some one or other at some time. I'd wager WE ALL have. In Steves case , i've been around a lot less than you, neverthelss about 9 months or so. He hasn't in that time been overtly aggressive. Is 9 months not long enough a track record ?

Just because YOU don't think it's worth 'blabbing' about, maybe Steve does. Maybe he's more 'sensitive ' than you ,,,,,thus making him more of a canditate for the 'sensitive' club as you put it.

Personally,I couldn't care less either way if Rex is around or not. I certainly don't lack tolerance and I'm sure no one (or few) does. The point Jim made about Dettmers was valid though.

It's no big deal, it's a PRIVATE club as you say. Doesn't stop us here on the PUBLIC forum discussing it though as it's very close in spirit to what's going on here. Ex-premies on a forum.

I bet my bottom dollar that the public forum has at some time or other been discussed on Rex and I'm sure some of the posts on that topic would have been not so 'tolerant'. Quite right too.

Free speech and all that ......

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:00:01 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.co.uk
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Some ridiculous things you've said Patrick
Message:
are you implying that a main criteria for rejection is agression/flaming?

I assume it is - I don't know.

Is 9 months not long enough a track record ?

Of course it is.

Just because YOU don't think it's worth 'blabbing' about, maybe Steve does.

I said it it wasn't worth 'blubbing' about not 'blabbing'. Yes Steve does think it's worth talking about - I don't blame him in the slightest - I was just trying to reassure him that it's not really worth worrying about.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:54:38 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: PS Patrick
Message:
Would you let this ignoramous know how you manage to get the italicised text interpersed with your replies? I've noticed it a lot but can't for the life of me suss it out !

I know it'll be staring me in the face somewhere but .....

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 15:50:14 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Fair do's Patrick [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:47:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve
Message:
Steve,

What do you think of comments some like Katie and other RE members have made that you could and should have somehow pleaded with the FA for admission after they said no?

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 14:52:41 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve
Message:
I'm going through a very rough time right now. I didn't feel like arguing - what can you say to a club that tells you it doesn't take very disturbed people? It's traumatic enough to exit the cult, but then to have exes tell you you're more disturbed than the majority - another trauma, I'm afraid.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:44:30 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: they're afraid of crazies like us steve
Message:
I was equally rejected when I asked for entrance to RE, a long time back. I had noticed that this forum was pretty rough and male dominated, and I felt very vulnerable and emotional and was hoping there was another 'room' I could go to, where I could speak more reflectively and without armor.

I too received a notice in response, declining to have me visit, the reason given, being that they were unequipped to handle disturbed types.

the rejection hurt, smarted , deeply, and I was reminded of nothing so much as the ringing exclusivity that propelled me out of my final
EV event in santa monica in april of 2000.

I wish this feedback would get back to RE and force them to reconsider that perhaps they are closing the door in the faces of those who need them the worst, and maybe they ought to rethink their policy to allow for at least one guest-trial period for each new applicant, to give everyone at least a fair chance to show themselves for who they are, before being voted in or out.

can someone take this to them for their discussion?

this is the same dynamic that premies displayed against the most troubled members , who desperately needed someone to pay attention, and when no one did, they left the hall or the ashram or the program and went out and committed suicide, while arti was being sung, or the videos played on, or the housefather firmly closed the door for the night and locked it and turned out the lights.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:48:57 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Re: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve
Message:
Steve,

Sorry to hear that you are going through a rough time emotionally. You are more than welcome to email me any time you want. See above

Did RE really tell you that you are too distrubed? Have you tried to appeal their decision. I'm sure a lot of us here would write an open letter to RE on your behalf. It's your call, buddy.

If you want an open letter with appeals from us here, I'd be more than happy to oblige.

Take care,

Deborah

p.s. I think you added a lot of value during the political blitz we recently held here. Your controversial remarks opened up some stimulating responses. I'm happy to see a open forum, it is in stark contrast with the thought control happening in various media since the Sept 11th attack.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 13:57:10 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: You obviously were'nt sincere enough, Steve
Message:
The email said

We are small and the FAs are busy professionals who expect members
to be mature and self-managing, to not be disruptive,
to not flame, and to try to resolve problems quickly
and off the site.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:03:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Come on, Deb, it's not like that
Message:
First, RE never called Steve disturbed as such. Read the letter in the link.

But the last thing they want is to hear from you, me or anyone about Steve. They just don't want him, don't you see? That's fine. It's their private place, they can let in whoever they want. They loathe attention, by the way.

My only concern was that the hush-hush secretive environment might be an easy way out for people who are just leaving the cult or are, perhaps, PAMs or others with perspectives and stories everyone would like to hear, even the lurkers. I can just see people settling into RE, finding it easy and loving and disdaining the forum in contrast.

As Bill mentioned, we don't even know who's there. Are there people the rest of us don't know and who we'll never meet? I can see that happening, oh yes I can.
[ RE's letter to Steve ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:52:26 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I got the same letter.
Message:
It was an additional bruise to an already battered soul.
If they are that cruel, I don't WANT to go over there. When they're ready to come out and be real, they can come over here and meet the rest of us.
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Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 17:02:11 (EDT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet - do you mean exactly the same letter [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 00:52:59 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do they allow rants, or RANS?
Message:
Jim:

I can just see people settling into RE, finding it easy and loving and disdaining the forum in contrast.

You know, I've been thinking that I might need a place like that. Every time I bring up my recumbent cycling here Dave starts picking on me intimating that I ride a tricycle, and it makes me feel unappreciated and misunderstood. I also get this aggressive/aggressive compulsion where all I want to do is go out and chase down 20 year old wedgie posers on my lawn chair bike, and blow by them like they were standing still while pretending to be engrossed in *The Atlantic*. It's awfully unhealthy. I wish we could all just getalong. (Long live Jobst Brandt, the William Shockley of cycling.) Did I stray off topic again?

Seriously, I'd really like to see the former Guru do some time for tax evasion or something really mundane like that; just in case anyone thinks I'm getting soft on Gooroos. It doesn't bother me as much as the Madrassas that are preparing those sweet children to be suicide martyrs for Allah, but it would feel a bit reassuring. I mean, I'll do my bit. Where do I apply?

Look, is India on topic yet? Because I feel a tirade coming on about the Punjab and Kashmir. Who was it that screwed up that area of the world, exactly? Are there any Rawats involved? I have an idea. Let's scapegoat him! (I mean if the Muslims and Hindus really want someone to blame, and would be satisfied with a plump little over-ripe doughboy.)

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 08:23:59 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: hehe Scott, funny post [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:25:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Come on, Deb, it's not like that
Message:
Ahem, Jim

I asked Steve in my post to him if they in fact did say that he was too disturbed because I didn't recall reading that.

so, questions are

Why wouldn't they want to hear from me?
What are the parameters for participation?

Why wouldn't new exes eventually find their way here and tell us their stories themselves. Surely they'll be curious for a different level of stimulation. I suppose they need to settle first.

Also, we may want to ask ourselves the Big Question. Do we pounce on people when they arrive if they don't meet our expectation?

Can we try to be more ingenuous with people who have not familiarized themself with us. Not everybody is the same. I felt threatened at first. If you hadn't emailed me months after my post and ask if I would like to discuss Maha involvement over a cup of coffee, I might not have returned. Of course, now I'm happy I did but that initial shock of the forum has to be overcome and different people respond in different ways.

Mike Finch told you that his perspective of the initial contact has changed. He was quite candid about it and I think he surprised himself when he went back for review in previous discussion.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:37:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Come on, Deb, it's not like that
Message:
Deb,

There is much truth to all this. Yes, people sometimes feel threatened, nervous or at least about to burn or even jump off the biggest karma bridge they've ever seen when they first post here. That's true indeed but, for all the senstivity training we might want to give each other, I think it's an inescapable aspect of what this place is, who they are, where they've been, where we've all been and like that.

It used to be that new people simply jumped in and got used to the water. Now there's this other place, supposedly kinder and genlter than this one, where they can settle instead. In fact, that'd be the perfect destination for some trepidatious soul with a big story to tell. Too bad.

Mind oyu, I have to be fair, I guess it's possible that, over time, that person might eventually post here too. On the other hand, they might not and, if they didn't, we have the phenomenon of secret, phantom on-line exes, the kind we never know about but can only imagine. (I'm sure the RE members think I'm nuts now. Maybe there isn't a single person there that doesn't post here as well, at least a little. Shit, am I making a fool of myself? Again?.)

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 15:31:40 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hey Steve
Message:
Hi Mate

Don't even entertain the thought that you're seperate from the majority or whatever....just try and forget about REx ....in real terms it's their loss that you're not suitable for entry.

Your story, your life as an ex-cult member is as valuable as ANY PAM or anyone else.For instance, the PAM stuff is useful for a different angled viewpoint or little insights into Rawats personality but tha's IT.

Your thoughsa and feelings have always been intersting to me as any PAMS, though in a different way.

So, I repeat, try not to beat yourself up over the Rex escapade...you've got people here on this public forum who hear you.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 15:34:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Ditto, Steve and Dermot
Message:
I grovelled once to get K and join an exclusive club er cult. Never again. I enjoy your posts too, Steve, and am glad that you have to put them here.
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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 21:10:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: But don't you see, Pat?
Message:
I grovelled once to get K and join an exclusive club er cult. Never again. I enjoy your posts too, Steve, and am glad that you have to put them here.


---

Selectivity's everything in these situations. Tell me, what would be the good of even having a private chat room if anyone could join? What's special about that?

Anyway, apparently not too many people see this as a problem. Must be my imagination.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 18, 2001 at 04:11:56 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're a shit-stirrer, JIm
Message:
I guess the cultweasel psychoanalysed me correctly by calling me moody. I'm not in a shit-stirring mood though I think you know I can agitate the faeces with the best of them if in the mood.

I'm glad that you are worrying this topic like a frenzied terrier though because I love airing all laundry including the sheets with poop on them but...

Right now I am more worried about your typos. It's getting hard to tell whether it's you or Salam. ;)

I wish you would email me with the exact description of what your problem with the editing feature is. Between Chuck and I we'll find a solution.

PS Looking back on my baptism by fire on FV, I can only say that my inner-child would have loved a gentler environment to detox from the cult. I especially did not need the paranoia-inducing cyberstalking and weird emails from premie trolls. But I believe that children should be seen and not heard, expecially inner children.

PPS Oh, all right - inner kids can come out to play in private between consenting adults.

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 22:57:43 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey Jim????
Message:
I grovelled once to get K and join an exclusive club er cult. Never again. I enjoy your posts too, Steve, and am glad that you have to put them here.


---

Selectivity's everything in these situations. Tell me, what would be the good of even having a private chat room if anyone could join? What's special about that?

Anyway, apparently not too many people see this as a problem. Must be my imagination.


---

Hi Jim,

No Jim, it was not your imagination. We didn't have a clear profile of RE and how and why they think, so I think you were quite innocent in your appeal to the readers of RE's email response to Steve.

I was quite shocked at the slack you caught because of it, for I had no idea who and what they were about. It's one thing to be a member and comply with forum disclosure and it is entirely another thing for you who are not a member to discuss details about any off-shoot of EPO.

I would be insulted if my moral judgement was attacked before I had the opportunity to learn about RE.

Perhaps someone from RE should leave a message addressing their concern with Steve. He apparently was shocked by decision and when I read your post I was shocked as well.

I just sent an email to RE to request a visit. I also offered to oblige to an open letter to RE asking for a revision of Scott's application and giving a recommendation. What do you think?

Deborah

p.s. I didn't know you were a mysogonist? Shouldn't keep things like that a secret. =)

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:10:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: RE is all ABOUT secrecy
Message:
Deb,

Please, save yourself the trouble, and forget about RE. You're just not RE material, Deb. Too loud, too confrontational. Believe me, you're just not the type. But don't feel bad. I've got a feeling that I possibly might have a hard time getting in too, believe it or not. :)

And no, you WON'T be allowed to visit. What? Are you nuts or something? Visit?? Sheesh!

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:35:28 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Could you please sugarcoat that :'(
Message:
Deb,

Please, save yourself the trouble, and forget about RE. You're just not RE material, Deb. Too loud, too confrontational. Believe me, you're just not the type. But don't feel bad. I've got a feeling that I possibly might have a hard time getting in too, believe it or not. :)

And no, you WON'T be allowed to visit. What? Are you nuts or something? Visit?? Sheesh!


---

I'm fooling myself because I'm loud and confrontational, gee Jim, don't hold back.

By the way, did you see JM's link in his post to 'You Americans will love this.'
[ Bush Disco ]

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 23:39:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: This only goes to show how insensitive *I* am!
Message:
Deb, Deb! You okay? Listen, we can't all be the other way. Some of us are this way.

Does that help?

No?

Okay, well, I DID see Bush. Very funny. :)

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 21:31:05 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: But don't you see, Pat?
Message:
well, I do recall one premie who got invited to the private forum and I never saw him on the forum again and I did know him.
Marc, who just posted here and maybe is on the re forum is I think someone I know fairly well.
He may not reappear. That is one of the issues you brought up.
Dettmers was a dream case for sure. And your right, he did catch proper flak here for his writing and I have no idea how he would have been kid gloved if he was out of sight on a cozy we accept you forum.
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