Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 20, 2001 To: Nov 27, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Sir Dave -:- A most consistent web site -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:22:44 (EST)

STANK MUFFIN -:- The trouble with teeth -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:50:42 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Jim! I guess this guy.... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:31:10 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Relevance? [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:57:31 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- a poem. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:13:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Re: a poem. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:15:11 (EST)

Barry -:- 'e' helps parkinsons patients!(ot) -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 12:36:28 (EST)
__ Barry -:- This is cool. what do you think?(nt) -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:32:39 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Like Kesey in '60's (OT) -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:11:48 (EST)

Barry -:- Mary K? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 11:44:00 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Scuse mefor liven! -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:16:48 (EST)

Salam -:- ha ha, hateonline has gone. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 10:23:41 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Re: hateonline has gone. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:02:27 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- I knew it -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:41:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Salam, you infidel! OT -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:51:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Only Officially -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:34:30 (EST)

Archie McDonald -:- No Real Sadness At Waking UP -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:16:44 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Hi Archie. -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:47:28 (EST)
__ bill -:- your folks would be/are proud of you [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:59:33 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Thanks Archie, nice post -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:12:48 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Archie, I'm looking forward ... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:26:12 (EST)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Pat, you're so right about parents... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:56:37 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- ****BEST OF**** [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:46:36 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- PWKs are so ''significant.'' -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 04:01:02 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Thanks Archie -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:05:45 (EST)
__ salsa -:- It only gets better -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 10:27:13 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Hi Archie, good to see you -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 10:12:51 (EST)
__ __ Archie McDonald -:- Hello Eddie -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:03:19 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Real Sadness -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 09:38:42 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Half a Loaf? or Loaf half full? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 21:25:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- thankyou Bill -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 03:37:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Bill, Loaf thanks for belly laugh! Priceless -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:57:56 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- oops, pooftah means Him? [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 21:32:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: oops, pooftah means Him? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:22:15 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Loaf, you're a young chicken. -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:56:43 (EST)
__ __ Bryn -:- Loaf. you is my hero! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:36:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- No ! You is mine ! [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:37:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- No No! Don't you see? That's the whole point. -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 08:54:47 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- It could be worse -- you could be older -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:32:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Rites of passage -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:43:54 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Jim thanks -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:36:13 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Loafie - big hug from me too -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:23:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Loafie -:- Thanks Moley... you are a love (nt) [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:37:03 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Damn right, you need a hug, Loaf -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:22:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- the PC dating agency swings into action ! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:39:16 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Real Sadness -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:23:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Real Sadness -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:31:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Here' some more hugs, Loafie -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:49:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I left my heart..... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:40:17 (EST)
__ __ magiclara -:- Re: Real Sadness -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 11:46:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Real Sadness -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:43:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Real Sadness -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:21:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- thanks mags [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:38:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- re:real sadness -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:08:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I dont know what to say :)) [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 03:39:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- And the Jack Kerouac Award goes to... -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:20:06 (EST)

Archie -:- -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:45:48 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Filament, Spare Tire or Gas Filter ? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:27:04 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- As with all worldly things -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:39:07 (EST)
__ such -:- charlatan preacher Gortner saw thru m immed -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:23:27 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- M & M's Marjoe and Maharaji -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:58:56 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Thanks, J-M. The picture's worth a thousand words. [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:23:01 (EST)
__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Hey, how come so many -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:04:02 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Hey, how come so many -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:41:56 (EST)

gerry -:- This is weird -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 23:06:43 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Is it a toilet paper ad? [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:58:11 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Even wierder: she's still listed as owner -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:46:38 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Ulf, we need you. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:07:51 (EST)
__ __ Ulf -:- It means -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:09:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: It means -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:12:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- what does this mean? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:39:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I hope Pia's loved ones don't read this -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:48:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I hope Pia's loved -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:31:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Morning Ulf. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:16:10 (EST)
__ PatC -:- That's Ariel. Didn't you see the movie? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:19:08 (EST)
__ G -:- maybe an error -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:26:59 (EST)
__ __ Troll Alert -:- It's the Copenhagen Mermaid, you goose [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:58:56 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- she's not typing... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:49:15 (EST)
__ __ __ salam -:- no she is not -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 03:56:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- If the group agrees (correction) -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 01:44:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- mistake (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 01:37:48 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- LOL -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 23:15:44 (EST)

Vicki -:- Current Maharaji Tour -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:50:59 (EST)
__ Gail -:- Re: Current Maharaji Tour -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:24:57 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- It is sad -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 22:16:09 (EST)
__ __ Carl -:- Powerful post, Brian -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 02:35:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- You've said it all too Carl! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:50:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- Hi Fran! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:10:08 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- Dear Brian S -- enjoying your posts -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:29:05 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You're on a roll, Brian. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:24:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- .Thanks to all of you -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:24:43 (EST)
__ PatD -:- The Great Betrayer -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 19:06:52 (EST)
__ Archie McDonald -:- Re: Current Maharaji Tour -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:54:55 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- Very true, Vicki. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:33:56 (EST)
__ __ Tim G -:- No regrets, no baggage -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:07:01 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Dream, dream, dream. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:28:21 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- For me, the mind is too small a place to live! [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:41:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Try expanding your mind, then [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:48:12 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- For me, the mind is a wonderful tool. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:13:02 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Who on earth lives in their mind, Dog? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:07:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Anth and PatC - you kidders you! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:59:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Dog. -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 16:03:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The funny thing, Dog, is that.... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:06:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sounds like vipassana to me Pat! [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:05:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Vipassana! Is that like vegetarian lasagna? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 04:08:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Remember satsang?? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:04:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- To Jim and Pat - Vipassana -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:08:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Paradigm grandfathering? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 19:04:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Paradigm grandfathering? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 06:59:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- To Mike F - Vipassana -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:12:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Remember satsang?? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:03:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is there an answer in there somewhere? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 23:07:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Love is the answer Jim! -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 17:06:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Luddite? Maybe not quite yet -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 18:17:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- brain functioning / mind -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 23:55:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no, not this again! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:04:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- It's a mystery to me. -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:35:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Does that make it any the less? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 06:49:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Key misunderstanding happening there, Ham -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:30:29 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Everly Brothers: Dream, dream, dream. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:00:06 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Yep, we followed the tooth fairy [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:24:03 (EST)
__ such -:- dreamweaver:cheat and deceiver -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:20:04 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Such a banana angel delight? (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 09:23:16 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Living in a Dreamworld... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:00:36 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Waking up from the nightmare -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:20:01 (EST)
__ __ __ salsa -:- well said -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:04:22 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- Re: Waking up from the nightmare -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 21:28:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Waking up from the nightmare -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 21:59:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:57:37 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Rawat: No Meditation and no Heart -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:15:45 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Great post, Vicki - thank you [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:59:25 (EST)


Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:22:44 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A most consistent web site
Message:
''The Great Worldwide Linkup'' has been going since 1998 and has brought both premies and ex-premies together without prejuduce. (See above link)

Premies and ex-premies can all say without fear or favour that it is a most positive site. It is where the divisions that are so obvious elswere, simply do not exist.

Everyone is welcome to use it.
[ The Great Worldwide Linkup ]

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:50:42 (EST)
From: STANK MUFFIN
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The trouble with teeth
Message:
teeth are bleak troublesome spooked out horses,

the number of blind lemmings is low compared to how many murdered mites dance for their dinner.

Fresh,
future driven.

We change our undies,
at least once a week.

Pimp,
pump,
plump.
The fat lady BBW internet sex glasses that she wore

were red
and pinched
wet and puked apon
like mom's stew meat sundays.

Thank dog
for god under the table.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:31:10 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: STANK MUFFIN
Subject: Jim! I guess this guy....
Message:
named Carlos at LG liked the poem so much, he felt you all should see it?
I think he moved it over to here.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:57:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: STANK MUFFIN
Subject: Relevance? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:13:41 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: a poem.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:15:11 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: a poem.
Message:
Criss Dicky (I suspect) took it from Life is great and posted it here.
Why? I don't know.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 12:36:28 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'e' helps parkinsons patients!(ot)
Message:
The drug is being studied by Dr. oliver sachs.
The dr. who the movie 'awakenings' was about!
Interesting.
[ http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s247109.htm ]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:32:39 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: This is cool. what do you think?(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:11:48 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Like Kesey in '60's (OT)
Message:
That's how Ken Kesey got his start in the psychedelic carnival. He was getting paid $75 a throw to participate in experiments on the effectiveness of psychtropic drugs for medical use. The rest is history, resulting in some great novels like 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' and 'Sometimes a Great Notion' written under the influence. I'm not sure the CIA got quite the results they were looking for, though.
So now we'll have groovy Parkinsons patients sneaking out to all night raves and writing cool novels about trembling to the cosmos. The more zealous will start a new religion and call themselves Shakers.

Richard, who hopes he doesn't get Parkinsons now via instant karma for making a joke at someone else's affliction

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 11:44:00 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mary K?
Message:
Is the Mary K company a cult? If so explain.
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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:16:48 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Scuse mefor liven!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 10:23:41 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ha ha, hateonline has gone.
Message:
I don't know if am late on this or something but I just checked the evil site of the evil doer and it's gone. Nada, capotski, gone. Horry.

See for yourself

http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/

Good job everyone. That sends a message to those cult followers. You ain't gonna mask the truth with your lies.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:02:27 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: hateonline has gone.
Message:
Salam,
After numerous unanswered emails to the hosting group in Denmark, Ulf called and spoke to them in Danish and the site was down right away. Here's the link to the thread:
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&id=7855.3856783877153

Richard, who was said to be a hateful spreader of lies but is really a cheerful spreader of organic compost
[ Ulf made the call ]

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:41:49 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I knew it
Message:
I am late. Sheesh, that what you get for not reading the forum.

anyway, there is nothing wrong with another celebration. The beer is on me.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:51:48 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam, you infidel! OT
Message:
I thought you didn't drink beer.

Your pal, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:34:30 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Only Officially
Message:
what I do in private is something else. But don't publicise it.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:16:44 (EST)
From: Archie McDonald
Email: None
To: All
Subject: No Real Sadness At Waking UP
Message:
Pressed wrong button previous thread.

I felt no great sadness at waking up and leaving the Maharaji cult. It is something that was building over a period of time. The realisation of a thousand drips that was always subdued by the brainwashing.

I guess the myth of knowledge kept me in there but I now know that the techniques are taught by many some in the same format and some in a slightly different format.

I now practice a different form of meditation which I find just as rewarding but really better because it has not any of the cult strings attached and I just do it when I want as part of my natural growth and desire to know.

EPO has been a great help in my 'waking up' and was the big drip that finally killed off any feeling of loyalty to M and the 5% belief that he may be still possibly the 'Lord'. The final step from believing in a Lord to not believing in a Lard.

I felt no sadness because I felt that I had left nothing behind to be sad about. I felt no anger either except more recently as I wake up to the realisation of the lost relationships, carears, and family ties that have been a direct result of my involvement with M. This is especially true of my parents who are now both dead and I am trully sorry that they are not still alive so that I could communicate with them free of all the cult indoctrination.

Since I 'left' my relationships with my wife and with the rest of humanity have changed for the better. My whole sense of well being is better and I am well glad to be out of the cult.

I read the forum regularly and feel a bond with the people here because of our common shared experiences and to see how people have moved on and living meaningfull lives as normal human beings. I guess I may know a few of you. I know that my wife knows AJW and my stepson is friends with his son. And others I may well know as well.

Best Regards to all.

Archie

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:47:28 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Hi Archie.
Message:
It really gives me a little buzz everytime I read a letter like yours. Another liberated soul back on Planet Earth.

Life really does improve, the further away from the Captains crumbling cult you get. Once you get out, it's like you're given a brand new drawing book and set of paints.

We really owe a lot of thanks to those brave, thoughtful souls who set up EPO. (Thanks again.)

I suspect my son travelled with your stepson in Oz for a while, three or four years ago. He'd been hanging around, and staying with several premies while he was there. They were all really kind, generous and hospitable when he was there, particularly our old friends John and Jill. Dot and I were most grateful. When he got back to the UK he was seriously thinking about taking knowledge. Fortunately, during the year he was away, I saw the light. After he'd been home a few hours, I gave him a copy of my 'Journey' to read. He was a bit shocked, as I'd been gung-ho when he left.

Anyway, needless to say the story had a happy ending. He was saved from becoming a culthead in injury time.

Now the cats are sprinting out the bag, and there's all this information pouring onto the net about the Captain and his shady goings on, it's going to be hard to attract anyone at all to the cult.

'The Golden Age' seems to have stalled on the starting line. Wait. What was that bang? Wohay. The engine's blown up. The car's on fire. I wonder where the Captain's scurrying off to?

Say hello to your wife. (I still don't know who she is. She probably had a different name when I knew her in my past life.)

Take it easy Archie. I know you're going to enjoy life outside the cult.

The Ex-premie record speaks for itself. In the UK, there are hardly any premies left compared to glory days of the 70s.

Thank Gilgamesh it's all over.

Anth, 'open uppa your bank account to the universe of love, and he will fill himself up.'

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:59:33 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: your folks would be/are proud of you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:12:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Thanks Archie, nice post
Message:
You mention that you were processing the whole idea of the cult for some time and that's why you're landing is probably so smooth.

Others read this stuff, and fireworks go off. It is important to respect and understand that the process will be different for everyone for multiple reasons.

Being angry and emoting hate are also very valid reactions to the realization of Maha's Cult. What he is doing is a crime on humanity and based on megalomania and excessive greed for devotion power and money.

Glad you're free and that the landing was smooth.

Cheers,

Deborah

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:26:12 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Archie, I'm looking forward ...
Message:
...to getting to know you. I hope you write more. I thoroughly enjoyed your message. Like you, I am sorry that my parents did not live long enough for me to love them honestly without the cult-think getting in the way.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:56:37 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, you're so right about parents...
Message:
It really has been true for me....how when you leave the cult consciousness, your relationships become so much better.

I just spent 4 days with my parents, thoroughly enjoying their company...this was literally impossible for me to do until the last 2 years when I left the fold....

It's also true for all of the other relationships in my life....when I left the 'the world is illusion' concept ingrained in us by m for decades, I became one with my life, the world, and people all aorund me.....the separation is gone...peace is simple and easy...nowhere to be, except right where I am right now....

It's funny isn't it, that in order to get to that simple place inside, we all came to believe that we had to do all of those strange things in following m through his latest hoops to jump through....

When I stopped listening to m, my life naturally came around and made itself right...that includes work, relationships and everything else I encounter in my life....and what a relief to not have to do that routine he puts the premies through!...

How do you spell relief?...........dropout!

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:46:36 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: ****BEST OF**** [nt]
Message:
It really has been true for me....how when you leave the cult consciousness, your relationships become so much better.

I just spent 4 days with my parents, thoroughly enjoying their company...this was literally impossible for me to do until the last 2 years when I left the fold....

It's also true for all of the other relationships in my life....when I left the 'the world is illusion' concept ingrained in us by m for decades, I became one with my life, the world, and people all aorund me.....the separation is gone...peace is simple and easy...nowhere to be, except right where I am right now....

It's funny isn't it, that in order to get to that simple place inside, we all came to believe that we had to do all of those strange things in following m through his latest hoops to jump through....

When I stopped listening to m, my life naturally came around and made itself right...that includes work, relationships and everything else I encounter in my life....and what a relief to not have to do that routine he puts the premies through!...

How do you spell relief?...........dropout!


---

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 04:01:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: PWKs are so ''significant.''
Message:
Somewhere on this page a premie troll accused exes of being insignificant. I guess the premie feels significant. I know I sure did. In fact I felt absolutely special. After all I had the Knowledge of god and even sent checks to god in a bod. I was really IN THE KNOW, so goddammmed superior.

That fake significance was a huge barrier between me and all of my loved ones. They were going to die and did not know the immortality that I had the secret to. I felt so sorry for them. Why could they not see that I was shining with the truth?

Yuk! I much prefer being insignificant, thanks.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:05:45 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Thanks Archie
Message:
Wonderful post Archie. You've got a huge heart, man.

Missing the 'community' got me going back to see M in the mid-90's after 7 years or so of abstinance. The old music, slideshows and seeing lots of old friends seduced me back into 'that place'. It was familiar and comforting until I woke up again. I found myself sitting in that huge Long Beach convention hall listening to M speak, thinking about how great it would be to just 'let go' to 'that feeling' and be a whole person. I call it the 'White Knight Syndrome', i.e. someone or something will rescue me from my mediocre life. Fortunately, a bit of descrimination rose to the occasion and, in fact, rescued me from thinking I needed rescuing.

I was operating under M's socially acceptable image de jour of being a humanistic teacher of meditation. That somehow did not compute while viewing the devotional porno videos of M strolling on the beach to lite disco and bad poetry. The divine photo gallery screamed 'worship me' and the histrionic rant coming from the stage said 'I know everything that really matters to you and you are chopped liver'. (EV monitors: I made up the chopped liver part. Don't want anyone accusing me of spreading hateful lies.) So I walked.

I still get pangs of wanting to be part of a dynamic and loving community but not at M's price of admission. I have moments of sadness that such a noble cause became perverted as it has.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 10:27:13 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: It only gets better
Message:
really.
Take care.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 10:12:51 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Hi Archie, good to see you
Message:
I knew you for a while in the 70s. I'm not sure whether you'll remember me or not.
My name then was Eddie Fisher.

I'm glad you can breathe freely again.

Jethro

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:03:19 (EST)
From: Archie McDonald
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Hello Eddie
Message:
Hello Eddie Good to hear from you. I do remember you.

Archie

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 09:38:42 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Archie McDonald
Subject: Real Sadness
Message:
archie..I woke up this mornin....

I have been thinking about stuff recently (strange eh) and its odd that i havnt had any regrets over my time with M - not serious ones... but recently I have been a little 'down' - and the old established K, Event pick-me-up was not what I wanted any more.. I have lost my taste for going through the escape hatch..and so i have to face a few home truths.

Truths which are coloured now with regret and loneliness.. I am not laying all the blame on my time with M.. not at all, but in these matters, the matters of my relationships.. I know that the pseudo holy atmosphere of events and 'listening' did NOT help me.

Over the past week, for the first time in what seems like a looong time..I have been feeling lonely.

Nothing to serious I suppose.. but it was the sort of loneliness that like a single loose thread, can unravel a jumper.

I am coming to realise that I miss people. I need to be more sociable.. but rather like a stranded 1980s Premie disliking bars and smoke and alchohol... I dont know where to go or what to do.

Then i start looking at my life... a 39 yr old pooftah whose self defense mechnisms have kept him afloat, aloof even, and for whom Knowledge was a powerful shield against allowing myself to Need anybody.

well... now my shield is gone.. the community and even the social rhythm and structure of going to events, locally, regionally, internationally... gone.

I have lost my festivals.

and I have missed my lover..... perhaps all my best years spent in prim Knowledge sexual-denial have cost me that one real relationship which would keep me company and love me as I go through all this..I traded a taste for real relationships for the easily available fantasy one with a jelous and posessive master.

I have no lover - and being a 40 yr old mildly depressed ex-cult poof is hardly going to win the hearts of any lusty young men over...that was all available 20 yrs ago... and I slept through it.

Now that I am awake I realise.. I am not my 'type' any more.. I dont blame em for running ! I went to sleep a beauty and woke up.. a beast.

(I dont mean that folks. its just the analogy talking !)

I have just come to look around at the wreckage of my life.... breakfast in the ruins.. and my saviour, my One great 'get out of jail free' card has long since expired.

So here I am .. sitting among the 20 yr old debris of a neglected life.. Mid Life Crisis standing at my shoulder..

What next folks ?

The needs which I sublimated in order to pursue Knowledge are as pressing as ever.. only this time, I feel them.

We all need a hug sometimes.

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 21:25:00 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Half a Loaf? or Loaf half full?
Message:
You know, there are kids in the big brother/big sister program that
dont have folks.
I had 2 kids here that I befriended and played a role for and I reccomend doing it for you.
Best way to sail past the midlife thing is volunteer and do something for others.
There are lots of organizations that do good, I say definately call the big sister program at least to see what they say.
If I was single, I would befreind one of the strays that really dont
ask for much time, but just someone to talk to and do some things with and someone who will care and maybe do some little things that
can make a real difference.
There ARE guys still around, they may not look so studly anymore, maybe slightly Beastlike, but I would notlose your hope for that.
By the way, many people have kids in their forties.
If you go to some local elementary school when they have some fair, look at all the parents, quite a few are MY age. And I am older than you. forty nine to be exact.

Frankly, if I was in your spot, I would definately pick a date by which I planned on getting pregnant.
Good husband material or not, at one point I would just say, thats it, times up, My kid gets a father that is not my ideal choice,
and maybe this guy aint offering a ring, but he IS going to be a father, and who the hell knows, he may be a good one. Even if I dont want to live with the guy, my kid has a dad, and I will love my kid, and that is all the kid really needs, ONE parent that actually cares.

You will be fine, and if you do that, and need help and money for your kid, my email is
bill52@rocketmail.com

Just being me Loaf, I care about you.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 03:37:19 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: thankyou Bill
Message:
what a lovely post.
Thanks.

The fact that I am a bloke had led me to believe that I couldn't get pregnant .. but now I at least want to die in the attempt !

seriously though.. thanks fer your advice.

I love helping others

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:57:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Bill, Loaf thanks for belly laugh! Priceless
Message:
I just love this bloody forum. You guys are great.
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 21:32:55 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: oops, pooftah means Him? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:22:15 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: oops, pooftah means Him?
Message:
Yep Bill Pooftah is a Brit term for a gay man. Classic posts. Cheered me up. Thanks. Marvellous lanuage mix ups aren't they? Where are you from ?
Mags (rofl)
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:56:43 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loaf, you're a young chicken.
Message:
Shit, I wish I'd got out at your age. I'd learn a new musical instrument, join a band, take up fishing, watercolours, reading more, writing.

You're just a young chicken Loaf. When you get to my age you'll have something to moan about.

When I lived in London, we only had small, face hight mirrors. When we lived in Holland, last year, we had a full length mirror in the bedroom. Several times I caught my reflection in it and surprised myself with the thought, 'Shit. Who's that fat old bastard stumbling across the room.'

Ah ha. Now I need a hug.

Hang on in there Loaf, on the aging side, it only gets worse.

Anth, fuck, I've pissed myself again. Dooooot!

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:36:45 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loaf. you is my hero!
Message:
Continue to continue chuck.

LOVE FROM BRYN xxx

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:37:50 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: No ! You is mine ! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 08:54:47 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: No No! Don't you see? That's the whole point.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:32:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: It could be worse -- you could be older
Message:
Loaf,

You're not going to get too much sympathy for your age around here, unfortunately for the rest of us.

But, yes, you raise a very real issue. A VERY real one. Leaving behind the cult was a social disruptor for all of us. I left after only eight or nine years in and have since had twenty years to rebuild my life but even then I know that I'm a bit of a misfit in some respects. By that I mean that my twenties could have been spent building my life, socially as well as in other respects, and that I might still have those people as friends. To me, pne of the most disappointing experiences I've had leaving the cult is losing the easy-going friendship I enjoyed with so many of my fellow cult members when I was in.

A bunch of old-time premies got together in Vancouver a couple of years ago and, surprise, surprise, I wasn't invited. Honestly, even though I understood damn well why, that hurt my feelings. I still have this goal of ALL of us, all the people I once knew and was friends with, dancing on Maharaji's figurative grave together.

But you need a new hobby, perhaps. Have you thought of taking up meditation? :)

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:43:54 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rites of passage
Message:
getting the cold shoulder from old friends has probably been the most difficult part of my exit. I guess you really know that you have made it all the way out cult when you are no longer called on the phone tree, you are struck from the mailing list and are not invited to events anymore.

It is not like I have an interest in attending another program or receiving anything further from the cult today, because I don't and that part doesn't really bother me. It's just that after preaching all this love and brotherhood over the years once your cult member friends figure out that you are going against the grain, all of those features, benefits and relationships go out the window. Pretty shallow and superficial philosophy when really put to the test.

Oh well, what could one possibly expect from the cult that acts like a cult and pretends to be something else. We are one in the spirit, we are all sister and brothers in that love, la la la.

Now we come to this....

Hey! did you hear about Brian Smith? he renounced Maharaji, NO, I don't believe it really, I always liked him, he always seemed so devoted so willing to do whatever was needed for Maharaji, what happened? I dunno, he really got into his mind I guess, started believing bad things about maharaji. Oh yeah! well fuck him then, I always knew there was something about him that I didn't like, and he wasn't coming round as regularly as he should. Take his name off of the list and never speak to him again, the ungrateful bastard.

Some lifelong friends huh, I have actually heard this "simulated conversation" about other exe's before. Typically whispered and bandied about in bewildered, aghast & angered tones amongst fellow cult menbers, rarely if ever with the departed member directly.

It would be more honest and easier to accept if they were as upfront as that. Instead, it is up to you to bear the burden of the projected chill factor, shunned away, even though you don't always feel the same towards them.

The brother and sister bit all these years was just an act, it turns out they are not even good enough friends to honor an honest good-bye.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:36:13 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim thanks
Message:
39 does not sound old.. until you try picking up a gayboy....LOL

Thanks ever so much for your words... now... about this meditation business...

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:23:11 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loafie - big hug from me too
Message:
Give me a ring and I'll come for a cuppa yer scrumptious coffee
****
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:37:03 (EST)
From: Loafie
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Thanks Moley... you are a love (nt) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:22:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Damn right, you need a hug, Loaf
Message:
Perhaps you need to move to SF where the young asian men love older, wiser and spiritual men.

The other side of the coin. I had a lover through the last 20 years in the cult and in fact brought him into it. Last night I had to apologise again to him for the nasty person I had been while in the cult.

I keep having light-bulbs going off in my head when I realize how insane I was, how badly I treated people including my own family. I did not realize how much anger I had in me that was caused by suppressing my detestation of Rawat. Fear and loathing.

I was afraid of following those hunches that he was not god but hated him. It was an ugly and sick relationship and it affected all my other relationships. I have a lot of apologizing to do to many people for being a mentally deranged cultist.

Not every poof is looking for a young athletic pornstar for a husband. Some are looking for real love, trust and respect. What's the bet you find someone even better than you ever imagined?

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:39:16 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: the PC dating agency swings into action !
Message:
a bet ?

heehee

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:23:00 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Real Sadness
Message:
Hey Loaf,

How about a big hug from a straight guy? Love you, man. Incredibly heartfelt post from you.

You ask 'what's next?' Plenty. Anyone who could post what you did has tremendous courage and the fire to engage in life fully. For myself what's next is to continue reclaiming the parts of myself that have atrophied over time. I have recently been working with the idea and experience of Boddhi Chitta (sp?). It is the Buddhist idea of the awakened heart/mind. That was partially what attracted me to GMJ in the first place. Now I'm revisiting the experience without having to attribute it to anyone.
M&K has always been about blissing out and getting high on darshan. Amusing experience but it was about escape and never addressed the emotional side of life. So part of withdrawel from blissing out is having to face the emotions and abandoned self. By the way. "Follow your bliss" is usually misquoted as meaning to just bliss out all the time. Joseph Campbell said 'follow your bliss' as part of an entire treatise on conciousness. Loosly paraphrasing him, he says that if you follow your bliss, it will lead you on your life's journey that will eventually lead to the dark, rich underworld of your life. There one finds the raw materials (emotions, thoughts, etc) to be a whole person. Staying in the bliss bunny state will never yield a mature person.
As I begin the journey into the second half of life, I'm amazed at the richness of my emotional body and how fear, anger and sadness actually are allies for living a full life. In the past they were summarily dismissed as 'the mind' or otherwise unimportant and to be avoided. I hear the Brits don't generally believe in therapy or counselling but it seems to work here in the colonies.

Peace to you, Loaf.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:31:01 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Real Sadness
Message:
Thanks Rich, very much.

AFTER K I found it really strange to have to 'repect' my petty feelings and all the mortal weaknesses of 'this world'

and so here I am... rummaging about with some long lost friends and enemies, (feelings).. it all takes a bit of getting used to, cos every one of these feelings is fastened to my sense of self and my place in the world.

The penalty for dis-connecting the 'feeling bit' from the world, from your self, from the organic and social personality and subjugating it into a mono-relationship where all gratitude is hijacked is that there is quite a bit of paying back to be done after years of running up debts.

Render unto caesar....

Its a bit like growing up.. I imagine.

But the pain seems to deepen things... just as the shadows deepen a picture.

Loafie
x

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:49:56 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Loaf
Subject: Here' some more hugs, Loafie
Message:
Hi there Loafie. Here's more hugs from the SF ex contingent. Thanks for writing so soulfully about this part of the exiting process, and the just being human process. Your words have struck chords with many of us, Loaf. When you reach out here, people respond in kind. No one tries to explain away your pain or tells you to ignore it by meditating or doing service or getting out of your mind. Sorting out who we are when we've been through a traumatic event is a difficult, maybe time consuming process. As the posts here have shown, it's a necessary part of leaving the cult, and of just being human. There's no panacea for the emotional pain life experiences sometimes bring us. We are here for you and we hear you. And we learn from you.

As for Pat's description of the SF gay community -- well, SF is a wonderful place -- that's all I can say. You Brits all threaten to show up on our doorsteps but never do! (Did ya read that Nigel and Moley, Jethro, etc???) We'd love to see you all.

Feel free to email me, Loafie.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:40:17 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I left my heart.....
Message:
It would be nice to come out and visit.

Thanks marianne.. you am so nice.

xx

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 11:46:18 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Real Sadness
Message:
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Loaf))))))))))))))))))))))))))Here's a virtual hug. Now you know where I live if you want a real one. Bloody cults and masters waste of space the lot of em.
Love Mags
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:43:50 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: Real Sadness
Message:
thanks maggs....

how are Stanley Bastard McNulty (?)Beast of Bodmin,Gas Wall heater Worshipping, Set fire to Yourself, Physiotherapy, Cliff Richard Cat and Rob ??

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:21:39 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Real Sadness
Message:
Nearly right it's set yourself on fire not set fire to yourself. Everyone is fine thanks. We should go out on't thrash one night you know. Love Mags
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:38:49 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: thanks mags [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:08:06 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: re:real sadness
Message:
hey, damn..whaddya know. look at the date. I'm right on time. it's the recognition du jour and I'm feeling the same thing everybody else is talking about. I'm not as out of touch with the real world as I feared.
Hey loaf. it's the same over here in venice with me today. feeling bummed, down, alone, isolated, but I know what i would have to pay to go back to that fake company and I won't do it. Will not. If satan were to offer me that contract again I'd rip it--and his face, off--and burn them both.
don't anyone tell my psychiatrist this, but i deliberatly went off my feelgood meds a week ago. it happened naturally actually. i started falling deep asleep without them, taking naps that left me more restored than i have felt in years, and i just forgot all about my being supposed to take them. as a result, this strange feeling of unreality has left me. the meds gave me a kind of 'take the edge off' softening, which outwardly made me a nicer person to be around, because i was just slightly doped and couldn't marshall my brain to focus sharply. I had been on the pills 2 years when i started to fall asleep witht taking them.
i notice this week without them, I have been quick, sharp, awake, conscious, demanding and much, much clearer. my mind has gotten its awareness back. I wake up at 7 am without an alarm and work all day. I'm eating better. When i do tire, its right around sundown and i eat dinner and fall into a deep, spontaneous resting sleep afterward for about 2 hours. years of pretending to be nicey nice and sugar coat all my real thoughts and acts, its all disappearing. I catch myself struggling to be extra perfect and i snap and irritably chuck the whole act and say 'fuck it! i don't feel like that and I'm through with that shit!'. and ya know what?
I feel me, coming back. I feel the me I shut up in a closet 27 years ago, finding its way out into the daylight again. wow, is it real.
and sadness. oh boy, sadness. tonight my23 year old son looked out the window into a driving rain and announced 'Mom, I'm going out. I never get to go out, and I'm sick of being in the house.'
I got bummed. I had a tantrum. I made it real evident how unhappy I was to be left utterly alone on a rainy weekend night. I told him flat out that i wasn't happy about it. I told him it was gonna suck, waking up in a cold house alone by myself. He promised to come home in the morning right after tea with his female interest. I pouted. I sulked. But I didn't make him stay home. I knew he had a valid right to go, and that I needed to be with myself and find out what this was that was rising in me.
I have been rotten company all week. Thanksgiving, I didn't go over to a friend's feast, conscious of how moody and cranky I've been. They brougt me a plate afterwards. My outbursts sound childish and immature, even to me, but I'm letting them surface. I would rather have them than perpetuate the artificial do-gooder, ever patient, little miss helpful, perfect example act I lived for decades, thinking I could be a living example to potential converts, to draw them to my gooroo by my amazingly saintly behavior.
it's all gotta come down. It's all gotta crumble so I can find out who i am without it, beneath the facade, behind the wall, liberated from the mask.

I try to tell my kid i have to do this.I aplogize to him for how bitchy i am lately, and he laughs and says it's ok, he likes weird people. he says a lot of friends were grumbly, bad tempered people.
i pause to think of my never-been a premie friend Mark, the one who came to programs since 1991 with me, who had darshan dreams and reached the light, Music and nectar without ever gettng into a Knowledge session--and Mark has a temper like a storm. a storm in a small box. he roars and busts things and cusses and lleaves a swath of destruction. he usually weeps at the end of it.
we all forgive him. we all like him. he spurns the very idea of conforming to 'nice' behavior. and it hasnt cost him any friendships. he's the only guy i know who has no declared enemies, in fact. he can live like that, i have nothing to fear for myself.

yeah, it sucks, that all those glowy, lovey, little angel perfect scenarios we came together for were all a bunch of shit. ally pally. kissimee. miami. those doofy blue tunnels. our funny clothes. our funny language. our funny food. we wanted the whole world to come and join and be like us.
it was a fantasy.

now, i crave to be with creatures that can't fake what they are.
my cats. my plants. the weather. building things and painting fences and sewing things. i live in a twn famous for its fakery and for its supposed 'reality'. los angeles. movies and gangstas. i revile both illusions. i see right to their core and go back to my hobbies. all the locals who are trying so hard to be gorgeous and beautiful and hip and sexy have about as much substance as a fake movie prop window made of sugar water. and the tough, cruel, violent,frightening ,swaggering gangstas have it wrong too. theyre missing out. whitey's dream isn't real but neither is their counter response to it. it's another illusion. another put on. another mask. another pretense.

and i know. i can see it. idon't believe the hype. I am what i am and i didn't come here to be anybody else's idea of how i should be.
i really dont care if the person next to me likes me or not. is that shocking? maybe this is what the pupa feels like when it gets too big for its shell and bursts out. or the sprout or the old tree when it cracks the concrete and pushes up into open air. its too damn bad i broke it, but i just couldnt stay in there any longer. the space was too smal and i am growing too fast to fit in there anymore. i couldnt live there any longer. I'm just too big.

i guess you could say, my tears burst my damns. but the barricades were artifical to begin with, weren' they?

apocryphal story from today in real life:

a storm blew in today, hours earlier than anticipated. down in the yard, my friend mark has been living in a tent till he can find an apt to rent. we put it up in summer, but as time went on and he didnt find a place, he added walls to it with tarps and string and clothespins to make it more for the rainy winter.
it near;y blew down in the last storm we had, the blasts tore open the sides and shook it, and he raced around roaring at the sky as he battened it down and fortified it and saved it.

but today he was not here. he was indoors, with other buddies. the rains started gentle. but then it pcked up and got nasty. the wind came on, building. he had let another homeless friend have the use of the place while he was away, and that guy had spent all last night completely redoing the place, nicer, cleaner, homier, safer and saner.
he too, was upstair s with us when the winds rose.
he ran out to try to save his llittle place. my son ran out to join him to help. i debated from my upstairs window until crisis was upon them.
they were screaming that the poles were bending and threatening to break. the wind was bending the tent this way and that. the phone rang and it was mark, wanting to know if his place was ok and if he should come back. in the moments while he was talking, it became clear that he better, if he cared about his stuff. and i saw that i had to get out there and help because the boys werent seeing what i was seeing.
staying dry was a futile ploy. so i discarded the raincoat and boots idea and went the other way:stripped to my skin and put on a bathing suit and grabbed my penknife and ran out there.
I'm fat, my lard will just keep me warm while i work.
the boys were trying in vain to save everything in the tent: TV, radio, lamp, papers, candles, while the wind rocked the house.
I set about cutting loose the walls, which wer acting like sails bellying out in the wind. these were the same sails/tarps i myself had strung up after the last storm. slashing the string and ropes loose, I labored to free them so the wind would have nothing to push against, undoing all my sturdy careful work of a few weeks back. all the while i was ruefully noting to myself how survival required the exact opposite tactic that we tried the last time. the wind seemed to be alive, gleefully trmenting us looking for ways to get at us and take away the tent if it could.wherever it attempted to pick up the tent and strain it, I stepped to the spot and cut the ties, denying it purchase and force. i was screaming at the boys to reverse strategy, to open it up and give it no resistance, so it could blast through and find nothing to knock over.
my son seemed to be sleepwalking. i had to get all military on him and shout 'move it! fastfastfastfast! nownownownownow!!! stay WITH me! no! HERE! right NEXT to me!' and he complaine'youre' so pushy!' I roared over the storm'you wanna fight? you wanna get pushed? lets do it. c'mon. push me! lets see what you got!' and i was truly goading him to see if i could rile him, knowing a jolt of adrenaline would definitely get things moving faster.
we tied guy wires out the the trees. they ran loose stuff across theyard into the other tent. i tore away the tarps and opened out the sides till there was nothing left for the wind to tear at.
mark arrived on a bike, soaked and adrenalized, shouting something about 'horatio hornblower' to the sky. i think it was a jibe at me, but i didnt have time to find out. by then all that was left was his bed and some bare tables. we stretched a tarp over the bed and i screamed to tuck the thing under like sheets, not leave anything out for the wind to get under. i threw tables on top to weight it down. and suddenly, we had robbed the storm of its power. nothing it did made a difference. instead of protecting and shielding everything, trying to keep it hidden and to ourselves, we had done the opposite: we laid it open till there was nothing left to tear away. and at the same moment without conference, mark and i both raised our defiant voices to the storm and bellowed' is THAT all you got???? whatsa matter??? can't find anything to destroy????? let's see you do it!!! come on!!! I'm right here!! give it to me, you bastard!!!'

and the wind seemed to poke around us, tenatively, like a dog, sniffing for some prey that was no longer there, and gave up, to look elsewhere for someone else to harass.
we cleaned up some odds and ends, looked about, and went upstairs.
i reflected on the drastic measures that saved us, while drawing a hot bath in my bathing suit.
i thought about the literal cutting of the ties, that deprived the enemy of its greatest weapons.
i thought about the contrast between trying to hold onto things to save them, and opening them up wide so there was nothing to hide. I thought about the futility of trying to put on protective gear to stay dry before going out, thus losing time and doubtless getting wet anyway, versus my statement as i stripped to the skin and put on my bathing suit 'I'm waterproof. fuck it.'
the only thing that got cold, it turned out, was my head. so next time, i'll know to put on a wool cap or a bathing cap, to keep the top of my head hot. my fat did indeed keep me warm.
i got all the cats into the house, warm, dry and safe. put on the kettle, wrapped up in towels and ordered everybody to take a hot bath, me first.

you live, you learn.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 03:39:34 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I dont know what to say :)) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:20:06 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: And the Jack Kerouac Award goes to...
Message:
... Janet for 'Militaristic Genius Hippie Mom Does Venice'.

Quite a tear you're on there good lady. I'm not sure I'd advise you doing it stand-up on the street corner but definitely get those words down on paper or pixels for future use. You live you learn, indeed.

Richard, who begged his shrink, to no avail, for happy meds to take away the 911-induced PSTD anxiety and now is mining emotions like they were gold nuggets

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:45:48 (EST)
From: Archie
Email: None
To: All
Subject:
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:27:04 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Filament, Spare Tire or Gas Filter ?
Message:
New magazine article on EPO !!

The world's most overweight midget.
Forget him.
By Marjoe Gortner (OUI Magazine - May 1974)
[ Who Was Maharaj Ji ? ]

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:39:07 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: As with all worldly things
Message:
The Filament has burned out, the Spare Tire has gone flat and the Gas Filter has clogged up.

But you keep on finding long lost articles, Thanks again JM for your brilliant research skills in seeking out these old literary gems.

I remember back then reading a similar Marjoe story in Playboy, but this one in OUI I missed. I see now why The Spare Tire quit giving interviews.

These unindoctrinated journalists could see then what some of us are just beginning to wake up to now.

Thanks again

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:23:27 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: charlatan preacher Gortner saw thru m immed
Message:
2 of a kind...

The author of the article, Marjoe Gortner, was a Bible-thumping Christian evangelist who suckered lots of true believers at revival meetings into giving it up at the offertory, made a bundle of moola, then made a film showing his faith-healing and revelation tricks - and became a celebrity.

While I find Marjoe interesting [and recall this article], I have always felt a bit uncomfortable with his self-serving facetious schtick.

that notwithstanding, the Oui article addresses miragey from some different angles. like a card shark or hustler assessing another hustler, reading his pitch, lines, plays, shuffle, eyes, attire, retinue, etc. -- sizing up the Eastern competition. hahaha

thanks.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:58:56 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: such
Subject: M & M's Marjoe and Maharaji
Message:
2 of a kind...

They were both child spiritual pitchmen trained at a very early age to mimic the intentions and aspirations of their parents.

They both manifested the child prodigy illusion of channeling a higher power or authority through proper training and indoctrination.

Marjoe at least got off of it, Maharaji probably never will.

Shirley Temple on peyote raised by Native American Medince men would have been a real spiritual phenomenea too.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:23:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, J-M. The picture's worth a thousand words. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:04:02 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hey, how come so many
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:41:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Re: Hey, how come so many
Message:
If I could draw, I would. That pic is worth a 1000 words of my ''psychobabble.''
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 23:06:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: This is weird
Message:
I know Pia's site is caputski, but what in the world is this image doing on her former home page?
[ it-aint-so.org ]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:58:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Is it a toilet paper ad? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:46:38 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Even wierder: she's still listed as owner
Message:
My guess is that her domain was abandoned and then bought by someone else and Network Solutions/Verisign has not updated their records.

I feel a bit sorry for Pia's children in this regard. Probably not a biggie -- the only people who paid attention to the site were a few premies and some expremies. Most people won't know the difference.

A warning to all who abandon domains, I guess!

--f

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:07:51 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Ulf, we need you.
Message:
What does '5 dage tilbage' mean? My guess is, '5 shopping days to Christmas'.

Anth the salty blue cheese.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:09:23 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It means
Message:
It
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:12:52 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Re: It means
Message:
It means : that something are going to happen ( on this page.?)
In 5 days
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:39:58 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: what does this mean?
Message:
from the html source file. The title page is

dansk design 2002 kalender

sounds like a 2002 calender.

Personally I think this is one of these pictures that have many meanings.

I think it's the light with Pia in it wondering where her nickers were.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:48:11 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I hope Pia's loved ones don't read this
Message:
I doubt if they would like her memory trivialized. Quite inappropriate, Salam.
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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:31:44 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I hope Pia's loved
Message:
Am only describing what am seeing. and if her relative had any repect for her, they wouldn't allow her site to fall to pieces as it did. I wonder what will she think of Maharaji if she can come back for a day and have a look?
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:16:10 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Morning Ulf.
Message:
Blimey, that was quick.

Looks like a cheap publicity stunt. It worked on me and I don't even speak Danish.

Hope all is well in the land of the Vikings. (There's a brilliant BBC TV series on the Vikings at the moment by the way Ulf. Apparently they didn't have horns on their helmets, but were quite horny.)

Anth who is also a cheap publicity stunt.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:19:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: That's Ariel. Didn't you see the movie?
Message:
It's this Disney animation movie all about this mermaid in Copenhagen with a bad case of hemarrhoids. That's why she's scratching her tuchas.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:26:59 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: maybe an error
Message:
It could be due to an error mapping domain names to IP addresses. I don't know.
The title is 'dansk design 2002 kalender', dansk means Danish.
The text in the image babe.jpg is '5 dage tilbage...' and
(I believe) means '5 days back...'
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:58:56 (EST)
From: Troll Alert
Email: None
To: tim
Subject: It's the Copenhagen Mermaid, you goose [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:49:15 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: tim
Subject: she's not typing...
Message:
she apears to be sticking something in her bum bum!
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 03:56:15 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: no she is not
Message:
she has an itch on her side.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 01:44:43 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: If the group agrees (correction)
Message:
that she is typing, SHE'S TYPING, with her hands behind her back I'll give ya that, but oh no, she is definately typing.

This is just another example of good proper cult training.

Come on Barry! see what you missed by not joining the cult?

You can't even tell a typewriter from dildo

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 01:37:48 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: mistake (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 23:15:44 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: LOL
Message:
Shit! One day they're going to take me away.

Fuck, can't stop laughing. Awww, it hurts. STill LOL

Maybe I'm just tired and should go home. Goodnight folks.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:50:59 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Current Maharaji Tour
Message:
It has only been a few months since I woke up to the facts behind M's public facade on EPO. This then, will be the first program I have not been invited to in nearly thirty years of following M. It brought to the surface some surprising feelings that I wasn't expecting, mainly saddness. Living with these for a few days
gave me time to mull over just what was behind these bubbling bits of depression.

And what it came down to for me is this, letting go of beautiful dream that had become my reality for thirty long years. A dream that superimposed upon my life a reality that was so real, it made everything else seem false. M and knowledge became the benchmark that not only I identiifed myself with, but also every other human in this world, including my family, and my day to day reality. Everything.

This beautiful world of knowledge was so much better than the harsh, cruel world. So I was told and so I believed, had to believe or the dream could never have become real. And without a real dream, M is out of business.

The wise lord on stage, with his platitudes and worldly observations, explaining how I was going to keep getting across the ocean of confusion that this life is, if I just stayed on board.

The wise father that would sprinkle kid psych 101 stories about his own children, and how he was so wise in understanding their developement.

The patient, devoted husband who loved his wife so faithfully.

The safe harbor that knowledge was to come in from the cold, hard world and be safe in. Remember the skipper in the storm satsang at Long Beach?

So it is hard. Very very hard, to realize that the dream superimposed on my life was just a dream. It's like waking up from a beautiful dream and facing the fact of "Ya, I was just dreaming." Logically it's easy to understand it was a dream, but emotionally it is hard because those feelings are residual and cause one to wish it had been true.

So the fact that I'm not invited, even though the door is supposed to be always open, is very telling. It's like once someone realizes the dream scam, and doesn't accept that "It's okay, x-rate me", then it's imperative to keep people away from premies. I'm not the type to get in anyone's face about all I've learned. But it's a risk they can't take.

So Maharaji goes on tour when he knows premies are spending their hard earned money on Thanksgiving and Christmas. The timing is very appropriate. Get the bucks before they are spent on families. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that EV is in the red again and they are trying to close the gap, like they've had to do for the past couple of years. They know no one is going to fork over Christmas money, but they will go see M. This is the highest suggested donation since Amaroo.

The point of my writing this? That it's hard for the typical, naive premie to wake up because this beautiful dream sounds so much better than real life. And we made it better. We removed ourselves from dealing with real life. The problem is, it was just a dream.

The heart inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. The calmness inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. But this world M created for us to believe in is not.

And how much a premie devoted themselves to this dream is in direct ratio to how hard it is to give the dream up. Thank god for EPO.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:24:57 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Current Maharaji Tour
Message:
Ouch! It almost hurts to read your post. Not to worry! We always were in the soup--we just didn't know it. In fact, this great dream ways horrid because we never got any closer to a conclusion. We never reached the goal. Our lives were on hold 'waiting the words of the masta, watchin'the hidden light, listenin to catch his orders in the very midst of the fight (with our sanity).'

Congrats on your great escape.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 22:16:09 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: It is sad
Message:
I know what you are feeling, I too just woke up from the dream and I have felt the tinge of residual sadness that accompanies the exit.

As I get further away from the cult strings and the M attachment that little dose of saddness that come up every now and then seems like a small price to pay for my freedom. The same emotion also begs examining, what did I lose, and why am I sad it.

For me the honest answer is by leaving I gained much more than I lost, I left behind a lot of entanglements that prevented me from developing my own person and accomplishing my own goals in life.

What is really sad is as a premie I carried around this superior, condescending spiritual attitude that would permeate and ambush any relationship that I tried to engage. I remorse in the wake of alienated friends, family and lovers.

Sadly I stagnated for years with other likeminded cult members and any meaningful conversation about real life issues, real thoughts typically got shuffled away behind a massive wall of magical cult speak. Some of the inane cultdrivel that was passed around as life wisdom and understanding simply astonishes me now in retrospect it is so laughable, whooohee.

So boring, so superficial, why would I willingly choose to live that way?

No, I am not sad to be shedding those illusions and dreams set up by M and the Cult, they cost me too much in the long run. They consumed my life with a false reality set forth by maharaji to manifest his dream, not mine.

I have my own life today, my own dreams and my precious remaining wits about me now to get on with things, I am free at an age were I should have plenty of time and energy to accomplish many good things yet to come.

I am very happy today to trade my new dreams in life for M's old one's

Thanks for the thought provoking post Vicki

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 02:35:44 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Powerful post, Brian
Message:
This really says it all: 'They [the cult illusions] consumed my life with a false reality set forth by maharaji to manifest his dream, not mine.'

That humiliating feeling of having been a rube and a sucker is the price for gaining a real dose of wisdom. Some good things can't be learned except by having made mistakes. This cult thing is a biggie, but boy, once escaped from, it really gives us a new tool, an improved BS detector. Chances are we will never again fall for the deceptive blandishments of any self-appointed political or 'spiritual' authority, or even most of the so-called official ones.

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:50:07 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: You've said it all too Carl!
Message:
Improved BS detector and the statement that:

we will never again fall for the deceptive blandishments of any self-appointed political or 'spiritual' authority, or even most of the so-called official ones.

Good stuff with an accent on the positive. What we've gained, not what we've lost. We always lose something when we gain -- in this case, we've lost blissful ignorance.

Love,

f

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 14:10:08 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hi Fran!
Message:
Hope your holidays are warm and fuzzy, and with all the trimmings.

I am having a long working weekend, four days of piano gigs, but it's not really like work. My partner is in Mexico, taking his mom and sister on a little vacation to Puerto Vallarta. So the house is getting a bit disarrayed. I'll have to tidy up before he returns or I'll hear about it!

By the way, I finally got your message about LH (Lately I haven't been checking that particular email account regularly). I hope he's doin' ok. I haven't emailed him yet.

Where are you located, how far from SF?

Carlotta

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:29:05 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Dear Brian S -- enjoying your posts
Message:
Dear Brian,

I have not given you an atta boy lately, but I've really been enjoying your contributions to the Forum.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:24:10 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: You're on a roll, Brian.
Message:
I'm just loving all your posts lately. You sound just the way you look - beautiful. I feel very lucky to have met you.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 18:24:43 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: .Thanks to all of you
Message:
Carlotta, Francesca, Pat, I am truly honored and blessed to have friends like you folks walking with me through this transition in life.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 19:06:52 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: The Great Betrayer
Message:
It has only been a few months since I woke up to the facts behind M's public facade on EPO.

This is the thing isn't it,for those of us who thought the big questions had been dealt with.

You assume that on your deathbed you float down the blue Darshan tunnel & merge with the ocean of eternal love. Well maybe you do, but any faith you have in that direction is fucked when you find out that the guy who sold you the idea is a .....(fill in the blanks).

I find I have a problem with death all of a sudden,& although I'm certainly of an age when that's natural....got a whole lot of catching up to do.

FUCK HIM

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:54:55 (EST)
From: Archie McDonald
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Current Maharaji Tour
Message:
Vicki,

I to realised that M`s stuff was a facarde after 28 years of being 'involved'.

Believe me I haven`t felt so good in years.

I really feel that the journey to that inner realm can be achieved by ourselves as part of life`s journey. We don`t need M and his cult for that.

Best Wishes

Archie

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:33:56 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Very true, Vicki.
Message:
You said:

The heart inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. The calmness inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. But this world M created for us to believe in is not.

The first two sentences of that statement were/are real for me, and for many of the premies. Unfortunately, they often become the motivation for not wanting to examine the last sentence, the dream world of belief in Maharaji. Premies have been conditioned to believe you can't have the first two without the believing in Maharaji. It's the religion that is the guru's dog collar.

Once you've seen the dog collar for what it is, and you free yourself, well, it's gotta hurt some. I think you once said that people keep saying to you that after you leave Maharaji, it hurts, but it gets better over time. You went on to say that, while it may be true, it doesn't help you NOW when you're hurting. I can understand that.

There is a certian amount of hurt that no one can save you from. It's a bit like a divorce, having the beautiful dream exposed as merely a dream. Talking about it with others who have gone through it helps, but there is still a process of readjustment, it was a big part of your life and will always be a big part of your past.

Letting go of the dream hurts, but you are also letting go of something that was exploitative, and are now making room for healthier things in your life. You can KEEP what helped you from the experience, learn from your mistakes, open yourself to help from many sources, and learn new ways to enjoy your life, without someone elses religious baggage to carry as you move on. And the best part is you can have it all without having to sacrifice honesty.

I really enjoy reading your posts, I only left 11 months ago, so they really resonate with me. I think they help a lot of people too. The first months are the most difficult, but fortunately it really does get easier with time. Better days are comming! They are starting even now :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings here, it helps us all.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:07:01 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: No regrets, no baggage
Message:
Hi Chuck

I can honestly say that I have not regretted leaving M's world for many many years. In fact I am exceedingly grateful that I have nothing to do with it any more. Of course I know a few friends who are still trapped and mostly I bite my tongue about the subject. Occasionally when it feels right I speak my mind in no uncertain terms.
I enjoy your postings and Vicki's too.
Best Wishes
Tim

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:28:21 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Dream, dream, dream.
Message:
Hi Vicki,

Thanks for posting that. It's just over three years since I quit the cult, and it's interesting to see the perspective of someone who has left more recently.

The only reason I'd like to go and see the Captain nowadays is to stand up and ask him some questions.

What I wanted to say is, I still have plenty of dreams in life. The difference nowadays is that there is the possibility of fulfilling them. With the Captain, you're just pissing into the wind. The dreams and promises he dangled in front of us were bullshit.

I'm just very grateful I got out of the cult with some of my life left to call my own.

In some ways it's like going back to the beginning again- like reaching the airport, and then having to go home to get your passport.

But at least were back in reality, not pissing our lives away for a fucked up, has-been, dithering, dickhead with the worst case of "delusions of grandeur", since...since...fuck it, the worst case of delusions of grandeur ever seen on the planet.

Greater than God my arse.

So, don't worry about losing that one Vicki. There's plenty more where that came from, and the games not rigged when you chase those.

I think it's got something to do with believing in Santa Claus, but I'm not sure what.

Anth "last night I saw St Augustine, alive as you or me."

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:41:57 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: For me, the mind is too small a place to live! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:48:12 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Try expanding your mind, then [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:13:02 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: For me, the mind is a wonderful tool.
Message:
I don't live there Dog, I use it. I also use my eyes, ears, legs, teeth, toes, fingers, dick, (I use that for a couple of things- getting nails out of wood, stirring the porridge), intestines, heart, liver, lungs, kidneys.

I live in a little wooden hut beside the sea in England.

Anth never mind, it'll be over soon and you'll be free again.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:07:13 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Who on earth lives in their mind, Dog?
Message:
We live on earth and in an atmosphere. Only my mind is in my mind. I'm not. I'm a body living on a beautiful planet. I think I know what you're getting at but I would prefer not to try to read your mind. I wish you had not just posted a one-liner. That's so unfair to make someone itch with curiosity to know what you really meant by that.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:59:14 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Anth and PatC - you kidders you!
Message:
C'mon guys. Remember satsang? Our mind, the internal dialogue, our story, is always commenting and judging and planning and yadda yadda yaddaing on. Remember?

The mind blocks the light our our true nature our innate wisdom. It limits our seeing and being who we really are. It makes a lot of noise and attracts our attention to a fraction of the reality in which we exist.

There is a difference between the concept and the reality. When we live in the mind we see only the shadows that it casts, and these shadows are our concepts, our definitions, our ideas of the world. What we usually experience is not what is going on, but what we think about what is going on. And the two things are different!

It's nice to have a mind. But not all the time.

When we can shut up the old 'drunken monkey' from time to time, we can experience the silence. We can see, hear and feel what a miracle life is. How remarkable it is.

Here endeth the sermon.

Deputy 'the Buddist' Dog

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 16:03:31 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Hey Dog.
Message:
Hi Dog,

You don't still believe that bullshit about the mind taking you away from reality do you? It really is a load of cult shite.

I heard lots of other stuff in satsang too Dog. Like, Perfect Master, Lord of the Universe, perfect peace, divine light, holy name, buckets of spiritual garbage, totally valueless, unless you want to start your own religion and get rich.

Come on Dog. Try using your mind, instead to putting it down. It's one of the things that seperates us from the beasts.

Anth, 'In his head'. Hoo hoo hoo.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:06:46 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The funny thing, Dog, is that....
Message:
...the mind just quietly takes it place in the scheme of things when you are not fighting it or trying to control it. :)
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:05:57 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sounds like vipassana to me Pat! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 04:08:33 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Vipassana! Is that like vegetarian lasagna?
Message:
Mr Dog, you're a sweetie I know but does all that eastern mysticism really still get your rocks off? Isn't it a bit like having your mom read the same fairy tale to you every night? Don't you long to think and feel for yourself and explore the sweet mystery of life without other peoples' concepts clogging up your brain pipes?
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 20:04:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Remember satsang??
Message:
You're still a sucker for all those spiritual fairy tales, huh?

When you gonna learn something about the brain, Dog? I daresay that even a cursory survey of brain science would put an end to all this 'drunken monkey' nonsense. But then you're happy in your ignorance, right? I forgot.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:08:39 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Jim and Pat - Vipassana
Message:
Hi Jim and Pat

You're still a sucker for all those spiritual fairy tales, huh?

I have liked both your posts where you emphasize the scientific view of the brain, and your general attempts to ground people (including yourselves) in rational argument.

I myself am trying to come to terms with my scientific education (PhD in Mathematical Physics etc), and my fascination with mystical experiences and meditations etc.

I am coming to the conclusion that the two paradigms can co-exist quite peacefully, and yet I see in your posts that you don't think they can or do - is that a fair comment ?

Put it this way: If every experience is the result of the firing of neurons, including spiritual and mystical experiences, why does that negate doing mystical or meditative practices ? After all, when you are hungry, the appropriate neurons fire, and yet you still eat - you don't say 'Oh that is just neurons firing'.

I accept that the beliefs and concepts around most meditations are excess baggage, but if a particular meditation practice itself (without any belief system) produces what Hamzen calls a 'spiritual tickle', and in fact has several benefits to the meditator, why is that a no-no ?

In fact, Vipassana meditation, as I understand it, is about the only meditation which requires no beliefs at all, other than it is worth being clearer about one's own mental states. So why does it spark derision ?

I am asking in a genuine spirit of enquiry, since I do have problems with this whole issue; but I think it is just a case of needing to get rid of excess spiritual baggage (hey - 30+ years on a Hindu-originated path !), and that if you do, there is still a core of meditation-type activity which is worth doing.

-- Mike

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 19:04:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Paradigm grandfathering?
Message:
I myself am trying to come to terms with my scientific education (PhD in Mathematical Physics etc), and my fascination with mystical experiences and meditations etc.

I am coming to the conclusion that the two paradigms can co-exist quite peacefully, and yet I see in your posts that you don't think they can or do - is that a fair comment ?

What two paradigms? Scientific knowledge and superstition? Because, at the end of the day, isn't that what we're talking about? The ancients who created the spiritual paradigms wee just guessing and, science tells us, guessing wrong. It seems to me that the only reason to give them any credence whatsoever is simply because they are such old belief systems, deeply interwoven, as they are, in our historical and philosophical fabric. Kind of like grandfathering in the old practicioners in the field just because they've been at it so long. Who cares about whether or not they've got the latest degrees or credentials when their experience is so strong?

But wait, do the old practicioners have any real knowledge? Apparently, not. This is what I always find so puzzling in premies' willingness to concede the emptiness of all the guru's spiritual hokum but still hold steadfast to the notion that M has soem right to sit up on there on that stage just because ..... because ..... because he's been sitting there a long time, and his father sat there a long time ....

Forget it.

So, I guess it depends on what paradigm you're talking about. Science has earned a right to a position at the table. I don't see that any alternative perspective has as well.

Put it this way: If every experience is the result of the firing of neurons, including spiritual and mystical experiences, why does that negate doing mystical or meditative practices ? After all, when you are hungry, the appropriate neurons fire, and yet you still eat - you don't say 'Oh that is just neurons firing'.

Hunger's a real, biological impulse. We understand it for what it is and respond to it accordingly. It doesn't matter what the scientific mechanism is because it's all working okay. No extra baggage that I'm aware of particularly.

Spiritual practices are nothing but extra baggage. Truth is, at most you can get a great brain ride with the right kind and amount of extra or subnormal stimulation. But all the spiritual beliefs that accompany these ancient stimulation exercises are just loaded with misunderstanding -- or should I say mythunderstanding.

Another difference is that we need to eat. We don't need to lock ourselves up for hours on end to get a certain kind of buzz, one which is really quite trivial, perhaps, stripped of all its superstitious implications.

I accept that the beliefs and concepts around most meditations are excess baggage, but if a particular meditation practice itself (without any belief system) produces what Hamzen calls a 'spiritual tickle', and in fact has several benefits to the meditator, why is that a no-no ?

Well, who said it was? But, like I alluded to above, there's also the question of the cost/benefit question: is it even worth it to orient your life around such practices if, in fact, there is nothing greater than a bit of a tickle in store?

In fact, Vipassana meditation, as I understand it, is about the only meditation which requires no beliefs at all, other than it is worth being clearer about one's own mental states. So why does it spark derision ?

Personally, I don't buy that stuff about being clear about one's mental states. To me, that's a lot of baggage right there.

I am asking in a genuine spirit of enquiry, since I do have problems with this whole issue; but I think it is just a case of needing to get rid of excess spiritual baggage (hey - 30+ years on a Hindu-originated path !), and that if you do, there is still a core of meditation-type activity which is worth doing.

I'm not a good one to ask because I really threw out the whole tub and can't recall seeing any baby fall out in the process. Some, I guess, who meditate regularly (I almost said 'faithfully') might say it's the best thing they've got going.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 06:59:47 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Paradigm grandfathering?
Message:
Thanks Jim for your thoughtful response. Pat said he wanted to continue this off-Forum, so I have emailed him, and cc'ed you.

-- Mike

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:12:33 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: To Mike F - Vipassana
Message:
Mike, I hear you loud and clear. I think you know that I still practice meditation. I will be frank with you. I have stopped talking about meditation on the forum because I have no wish to give Rev Rawat any ideas for re-inventing himself or his product by presenting it in a more western and enlightned way. I discuss this with exes privately and would be happy to do so with you whenever you wish.

Meanwhile here on the forum my position is that I will criticise any and all non-scientific explanations for what William James called ''Varieties of Religious Experience.'' When Rawat and other religious charlatans throw in the towel, I will begin to talk about it openly.

I also firmly believe that highly subjective ideas are best discussed between consenting adults in private. So, please don't take my jokes about mysticism too seriously. I intend no insult to anyone except Rawat.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 22:03:48 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Remember satsang??
Message:
Spiritual fairy tales? Silence is a fairy tale Jim? Oh I forgot! You've put all your eggs in one basket - you are Mr. Rational Mind.

And what is ignorance anyway? Could it be associated with suffering? Suffering comes when we get enmeshed in the story line of life. The problem is not the content, but our identification with the content. Oh, but I forgot, you are way smarter than the Buddha.

IMO quietness is the truth. Some have called it peace. You know 'He maketh me to lie beside the still waters.' The inner quiet and calm allow us to see much more. We get a new sense of how to create and control our universe. We stop reating to events simply with blind conditioning and habits patterns of thought. It improves the quality of our life.

You, Mr. Ego, are like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell.

Sorry Jim but when I meditate I feel good and secure and real and smart. You can stay bouncing around in your conditioning if you want.

'We shape clay into a clay pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds what we want.'
-- Tao te Ching

When meditation washes away my thoughts it brings a sense of rightness, of clarity, of being one. That's good enough for me old bud.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 23:07:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Is there an answer in there somewhere?
Message:
Sorry, Dog, but I've looked through your post a few times. Beside the typical spiritual boilerplate nothing on this:

When you gonna learn something about the brain, Dog?

Did it drop out? I mean the answer, of course. Who knows where your brain is?

No, seriously, aren't you even slightly interested in getting past all those books you picked up in the seventies and learning something new?

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 17:06:06 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Love is the answer Jim!
Message:
It is often easier to fight external enemies than to confront one's inner demons. I happen to like wiping the slate clean now and then, I also happen to like brushing my teeth.

It's not all about the brain Jim. Some of the smartest people in the world are evil. The brain is just where all the records are.

With meditation I transcend the mind and get that inner click, that feeling of okayness about life. Hope you don't mind.

IMO meditation is significantly more pleasurable than throwing more records onto the pile. But hey, whatever turns you on.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 18:17:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Luddite? Maybe not quite yet
Message:
One day, Dog, if not sooner, later for sure, we'll all be luddites if we don't learn about the brain. What did you think of John M's newspaper article?
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 23:55:02 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: brain functioning / mind
Message:
You have yet to reasonably argue for the notion that the mind is just brain functioning. Such oversimplification runs counter to common sense. There's one part to Occam's Razor that should not be glossed over, and that is 'without necessity'. What Kant called the 'transcendental experience of apperception' - that is, being aware of so much at once - suggests strongly that the mind is not simply neurons firing, for how could it all come together - truly together - on a physical level? This is not an argument from ignorance, for I'm not claiming to have proved something, and there is a basis in common sense, given that physical particles are not known to have this kind of non-locality, and 'red' (as opposed to corresponding wavelengths) is not a known quality of matter.
There's a difference between a neuron firing that corresponds to a little bit of an experience of red (assuming it works that way, who knows) and the experience itself, between a biochemical and a feeling. Then there's the even more mysterious question of what is it that is aware of red, blue, a tone, etc., and all at the same time. There are big questions still left unanswered - IMO by anyone - about the mind, and to say that what most people mean by the mind doesn't exist or is an illusion is a cop-out, just as 'spiritual' people saying that the physical world is illusory is a cop-out. 'illusion' can be a very deceptive word.

There's also the notion that all mental states, all mental experiences, are solely triggered by neurons firing; that there are no other triggers either in the mind itself or elsewhere. That notion has not be shown to be true, it is not scientific fact, but speculation. Oh, and we both should be careful not to fall into the fallacy of ignorance about this. A lack of scientific proof of something does not make it false. It cannot at this time be said scientifically that there are or are not other triggers.

It very well could be that non-physical mental states can trigger the firing of neurons, it's not necessarily a one-way street, and frankly, I don't think it is. I base my personal belief partially on seemingly 'paranormal' personal experiences, and the everyday experience of intent/volition/attention. I also put some stock in what other people have told me about their experiences, I don't automatically say 'they are wrong/lying/hallucinating etc.' or 'there must be a physical explanation'.
To give an example, I had a dream about a parasitic crustacean severing the head of another crustacean, I never had heard of such a thing. The next day I read about one in a science article (maybe in Nature) about parasites. The crustacean basically injects a small part of itself into a crab, and that small part is the next phase in its lifecycle, quite amazing. It grows inside the crab and then ends up controlling the brain of the host crab, and that's just the start of the weirdness involved. I know what a 'skeptic' would say about this dream, but I don't buy it. Btw, how do you suppose that evolved?

I disagree with dog's idea about going beyond the mind, what he's labeling not-mind is really part of the mind. Labeling different parts of the mind as fundamentally seperate/different is absurd, as is the notion that the mental and the physical have nothing to do with each other, as there is obviously a connection. why shouldn't the experience of 'silence' not be considered part of the mind?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:04:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Oh no, not this again!
Message:
You have yet to reasonably argue for the notion that the mind is just brain functioning.

What else is is then, G? Come on, put your cards on the table. Spell it out. If you think there's something else creating or causing the mind, what?

Such oversimplification runs counter to common sense. There's one part to Occam's Razor that should not be glossed over, and that is 'without necessity'.

We've got necessity galore. There is nothing superfluous about the materialist theory that the brain is the sole generator and forum of consciousness. If not the brain, what? God? The soul? Angels?

What Kant called the 'transcendental experience of apperception' - that is, being aware of so much at once - suggests strongly that the mind is not simply neurons firing, for how could it all come together - truly together - on a physical level?

Why don't you ask a neuroscientist and see if he agrees. I tend to think not. Now why do you think that is, hm?

This is not an argument from ignorance, for I'm not claiming to have proved something, and there is a basis in common sense, given that physical particles are not known to have this kind of non-locality, and 'red' (as opposed to corresponding wavelengths) is not a known quality of matter.

It is indeed an argument from ignorance and you are indeed trying to prove something: that the mind is something more than neurons firing.

There's a difference between a neuron firing that corresponds to a little bit of an experience of red (assuming it works that way, who knows) and the experience itself, between a biochemical and a feeling. Then there's the even more mysterious question of what is it that is aware of red, blue, a tone, etc., and all at the same time. There are big questions still left unanswered - IMO by anyone - about the mind, and to say that what most people mean by the mind doesn't exist or is an illusion is a cop-out, just as 'spiritual' people saying that the physical world is illusory is a cop-out. 'illusion' can be a very deceptive word.

It's all details, G. WE have every reason to believe that further discoveries in neuroscience will indeed answer these and other questions. You're all about arguing from ignorance, it seems.

But anyway, why don't you simply tell us what you think the answers are? Instead of pointing out the incompleteness of science, why don't you tell us what you actually believe is going on?

There's also the notion that all mental states, all mental experiences, are solely triggered by neurons firing; that there are no other triggers either in the mind itself or elsewhere. That notion has not be shown to be true, it is not scientific fact, but speculation. Oh, and we both should be careful not to fall into the fallacy of ignorance about this. A lack of scientific proof of something does not make it false. It cannot at this time be said scientifically that there are or are not other triggers.

No, you're right. However Occam's Razor cuts away all the other explanations you might propose, I think. Of course we won't know what they are unless you tell us.

It very well could be that non-physical mental states can trigger the firing of neurons, it's not necessarily a one-way street, and frankly, I don't think it is.

You got some evidence to back this up?

I base my personal belief partially on seemingly 'paranormal' personal experiences, and the everyday experience of intent/volition/attention. I also put some stock in what other people have told me about their experiences, I don't automatically say 'they are wrong/lying/hallucinating etc.' or 'there must be a physical explanation'.

That's your bias, not mine. You obviously love the idea of some sort of paranormal something or other. I don't.

To give an example, I had a dream about a parasitic crustacean severing the head of another crustacean, I never had heard of such a thing. The next day I read about one in a science article (maybe in Nature) about parasites. The crustacean basically injects a small part of itself into a crab, and that small part is the next phase in its lifecycle, quite amazing. It grows inside the crab and then ends up controlling the brain of the host crab, and that's just the start of the weirdness involved. I know what a 'skeptic' would say about this dream, but I don't buy it. Btw, how do you suppose that evolved?

I'm a skeptic and I don't know what to think of your dream. But, you know, I do think there's a mundane explanation. We might not know what but it exists. How about you? What's your guess?

I disagree with dog's idea about going beyond the mind, what he's labeling not-mind is really part of the mind. Labeling different parts of the mind as fundamentally seperate/different is absurd, as is the notion that the mental and the physical have nothing to do with each other, as there is obviously a connection. why shouldn't the experience of 'silence' not be considered part of the mind?

Agreed.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:35:28 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a mystery to me.
Message:
You have yet to reasonably argue for the notion that the mind is just brain functioning.

What else is is then, G? Come on, put your cards on the table. Spell it out. If you think there's something else creating or causing the mind, what?

You didn't address what I wrote, instead you ask what I think, a diversion. It doesn't matter what I think. To answer your question, it's a mystery to me, I don't have this figured out at all. So what?That doesn't make your notion true, to say so would be a logical fallacy.

Such oversimplification runs counter to common sense. There's one part to Occam's Razor that should not be glossed over, and that is 'without necessity'.

We've got necessity galore. There is nothing superfluous about the materialist theory that the brain is the sole generator and forum of consciousness. If not the brain, what? God? The soul? Angels?

What necessity? There's nothing superfluous about your theory, there's something missing, as evidenced by the reasons stated. Just because I don't describe what the something(s) is/are, doesn't invalidate what I'm saying. Again, to say so would be a logical fallacy.

What Kant called the 'transcendental experience of apperception' - that is, being aware of so much at once - suggests strongly that the mind is not simply neurons firing, for how could it all come together - truly together - on a physical level?

Why don't you ask a neuroscientist and see if he agrees. I tend to think not. Now why do you think that is, hm?

There are neuroscientists who do agree, Chalmers for one, a very prominent neuroscientist. Besides, that's an illogical argument from authority. Ah, you didn't answer the question.

This is not an argument from ignorance, for I'm not claiming to have proved something, and there is a basis in common sense, given that physical particles are not known to have this kind of non-locality, and 'red' (as opposed to corresponding wavelengths) is not a known quality of matter.

It is indeed an argument from ignorance and you are indeed trying to prove something: that the mind is something more than neurons firing.

No it isn't, my argument has actual substance and you know it, I'm showing evidence of necessity because matter does not possess these qualities. These qualities must be accounted for, not just dishonestly dismissed. Do you think matter does possess these qualities? If so, why? What evidence do you have? And wouldn't that redefine the word 'matter'?
Showing evidence for and claiming proof are different, the 'argument from ignorance' idea deals with claimed proofs. I'm not claiming proof.

There's a difference between a neuron firing that corresponds to a little bit of an experience of red (assuming it works that way, who knows) and the experience itself, between a biochemical and a feeling. Then there's the even more mysterious question of what is it that is aware of red, blue, a tone, etc., and all at the same time. There are big questions still left unanswered - IMO by anyone - about the mind, and to say that what most people mean by the mind doesn't exist or is an illusion is a cop-out, just as 'spiritual' people saying that the physical world is illusory is a cop-out. 'illusion' can be a very deceptive word.

It's all details, G. WE have every reason to believe that further discoveries in neuroscience will indeed answer these and other questions. You're all about arguing from ignorance, it seems.

Who's WE? A small percentage of people. What reasons? Your assumptions? And you said it, 'believe'. If further discoveries do answer them, and hopefully that will happen, the answers may very well not agree with your beliefs - your faith.

But anyway, why don't you simply tell us what you think the answers are? Instead of pointing out the incompleteness of science, why don't you tell us what you actually believe is going on?

My point isn't that science is incomplete, but that actual observations conflict with your belief system. I don't know what is going on, I'm not that smart. Are you?

There's also the notion that all mental states, all mental experiences, are solely triggered by neurons firing; that there are no other triggers either in the mind itself or elsewhere. That notion has not be shown to be true, it is not scientific fact, but speculation. Oh, and we both should be careful not to fall into the fallacy of ignorance about this. A lack of scientific proof of something does not make it false. It cannot at this time be said scientifically that there are or are not other triggers.

No, you're right. However Occam's Razor cuts away all the other explanations you might propose, I think. Of course we won't know what they are unless you tell us.

No, it does not, first because the 'without necessity' condition is not fullfilled, second, it doesn't cut out anything. Occam's Razor is a method for selecting a theory to be given priority to in terms of investigation. That's all it is. It doesn't imply anything. It is not a 'principle of parsimony', nor is it a statement that 'the universe is simple'. You proclaim this notion of simplicity as if it's some proven truth. Why? How complex is the Universe? It obviously has more than zero complexity, and more than a couple of bits of complexity. So what's the magic number, 42? Or is it infinite?If the Universe were finite in complexity, how could it cause itself?

It very well could be that non-physical mental states can trigger the firing of neurons, it's not necessarily a one-way street, and frankly, I don't think it is.

You got some evidence to back this up?

Yes, see below.

I base my personal belief partially on seemingly 'paranormal' personal experiences, and the everyday experience of intent/volition/attention. I also put some stock in what other people have told me about their experiences, I don't automatically say 'they are wrong/lying/hallucinating etc.' or 'there must be a physical explanation'.

That's your bias, not mine. You obviously love the idea of some sort of paranormal something or other. I don't.

It's not that I love it, it seems to be the more likely explanation.

To give an example, I had a dream about a parasitic crustacean severing the head of another crustacean, I never had heard of such a thing. The next day I read about one in a science article (maybe in Nature) about parasites. The crustacean basically injects a small part of itself into a crab, and that small part is the next phase in its lifecycle, quite amazing. It grows inside the crab and then ends up controlling the brain of the host crab, and that's just the start of the weirdness involved. I know what a 'skeptic' would say about this dream, but I don't buy it. Btw, how do you suppose that evolved?

I'm a skeptic and I don't know what to think of your dream. But, you know, I do think there's a mundane explanation. We might not know what but it exists. How about you? What's your guess?

I can't conceive of an explanation that would be called 'mundane', can you? I don't have a guess, it's a mystery to me.

I highly recommend the article, it's in Discover magazine, August 2000, entitled 'Do Parasites Rule the World?' (online version is only text) The parasite is called Sacculina.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 06:49:14 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does that make it any the less?
Message:
So it's a built in mechanism of evolution to feel good for some people, with the buzzes, and psycho changes that route can produce.
Does that make it any the less?

You're into evolution happening for a purpose right, not just natural drift, then surely those 'spiritual' tickle centres in the brain must have some evolutionary purpose, surely you're not becoming anti-evolutionary Jim?

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:30:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Key misunderstanding happening there, Ham
Message:
You're into evolution happening for a purpose right, not just natural drift...?

No, Ham, no purpose at all. Natural drift entirely. That's the whole point of it all. That's why they call it Darwin's Dangerous idea. Directionless, undirected, undesigned .....no purpose at all.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:00:06 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Everly Brothers: Dream, dream, dream.
Message:
When I was a very little girl, about 3-4, this was my favorite song:

Everly Brothers

WHEN I WANT YOU IN MY ARMS
WHEN I WANT YOU AND ALL YOUR CHARMS
WHENEVER I WANT YOU
ALL I HAVE TO DO IS DREAM, DREAM, DREAM, DREAM.

WHEN I FEEL BLUE IN THE NIGHT
AND I NEED YOU TO HOLD ME TIGHT
WHENEVER I WANT YOU
ALL I HAVE TO DO IS DREAM

I CAN MAKE YOU MINE TASTE YOUR LIPS OF WINE
ANYTIME NIGHT OR DAY.
ONLY TROUBLE IS GEE WHIZ,
I'M DREAMING MY LIFE AWAY

I NEED YOU SO THAT I COULD DIE.
I LOVE YOU SO AND THAT IS WHY.
WHENEVER I WANT YOU ALL I HAVE TO DO IS DREAM.

That's what loving m was about literally. I still love the song but I can dream of my real life love. I also adored Perry Como's ''Catch A Falling Star''...same age.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:24:03 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Yep, we followed the tooth fairy [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:20:04 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@ezra_gangsta.edu
To: Vicki
Subject: dreamweaver:cheat and deceiver
Message:
the dreamweaver: cheat and deceiver
robs prime of believer
a soul in fever

occult confusion
a cult delusion
I'd call it amusin,
except...

take back your days
and your nights
your thoughts
essence
goals
projects
purpose
space
joys
journeys
discoveries
amazement
amusement
contentment

no fear in freedom
individual trust
shattered heart's hopes
retrieved from the dust

the power that makes
and takes
also awakes!

what you own
you carry within
and no one else
may claim that.


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btw,
Once upon a time, I dreamt I was an angel, soaring hither and thither; to all my intents and purposes an angel. I was conscious only of my happiness as an angel, unaware that I was suchabanana. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was an angel, or whether I am now an angel, dreaming I am a man... [hehehe, i've got a Dow Jones]

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 09:23:16 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Such a banana angel delight? (nt)
Message:
Such a banana angel delight? (nt)
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:00:36 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Living in a Dreamworld...
Message:
The waking up part has caused me exhilaration and grief. I was the kind of premie who dove in head first and even after leaving the ashram in Jan. 1981, and didn't ''keep in touch,'' I still invested my belief system (I still believed him to be lord), my prayers (he told me to), my trust (he always said he'd never abandon me--no cheat and deceit), and even in his platitudes he had me convinced he loved me more than anyone else in the world could (so I always held him out at my first and last resort in life). When I went back in 1997 I went into a state of denial/acceptance over and over until I just came here and read. My first drip was the Jagdeo matter. Actually, the Jagdeo matter was a bucket of cold water on my head and I am convinced Maharaji covered up the child abuse which constitutes a huge a character flaw.

I loved him. I'm not afraid to admit it. But his world is a fake. And he betrayed me and all others who have ever devoted themselves to Maharaji as lord, ashram premies, married, single, whoever.

Removing that veil of Maharaji's deception is an act of courage and facing fear of waking up. It's difficult to focus on all the losses associated with Maharaji's congame. I love to dream and I linger on the good ones; I am always happy to wake up from a nightmare.

I don't forgive him and don't expect him to do anything on my behalf to assuage the abuse of being a premie of Guru Maharaj Ji, Lord of the Universe for 25 years.

I was thinking about being an adult and what's generally accepted as adult behavior in our culture. When one lists all of Maharaji's behaviors it's apparent he is not an adult at all. He is still a delinquent teenager who has no conscience, but he is older now and man, it shows.

I'm starting to ramble. Sorry...I just want you to know you are not alone in this exiting process.

Thanks, once again, for your beautiful writing and thoughts...

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:20:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Waking up from the nightmare
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I was goingto say the exact same thing, so I'll post it you instead.
The dream was a 'Brain-lie' substitution to deceive us from our natural dreams. We dreamt Maha's dreams, made his dreams come true at the expense of realizing or at least pursuing our own dreams.

I'm pissed off because he deeply affected my 'natural' dreams even after I drifted away. Threads of premie-Maha thinking were still attached to my psyche long after I thought I was thinking for myself.

Their is no dream for premies. They are removed from society--dazed and cofused. And worse, some may never come back.

No. It's a nightmare, an inhumane nightmare.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 08:04:22 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: well said
Message:
. We dreamt Maha's dreams, made his dreams come true at the expense of realizing or at least pursuing our own dreams.

THE BASTARD!!! AND HE WONT QUIT!!!!

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 21:28:45 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Waking up from the nightmare
Message:
Hi Deborah,
How about emailing me?
bburke at rocketmail.com
I wont respond for a few days or so, but I will.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 21:59:16 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: bill
Subject: Re: Waking up from the nightmare
Message:
bill, email is coming back undelivered. Email me. see above
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:57:37 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re:
Message:
try

bill52@rocketmail.com
the other seems to have a problem

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:15:45 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Rawat: No Meditation and no Heart
Message:
Ironic, isn't it? Here's this guy mouthing all these beautiful platitudes, many of them basic truism, most if not all, he doesn't really believe or understand.

It's clear form his 'Why do ask?' answer to the question about his meditative practise that Rawat has no such disciple in his life. It's abundantly clear he has no real heart connection within inside (snicker) himself either. If he had the connection, he would not engage in the behaviors he does. Certainly, someone with a strong heart connection would be unable and unwilling to abuse people as Rawat demonstrated in his 'Trainings.'

No, this is one cool and calculated extractor of your very lifeblood.

I'm so glad you woke up from this nightmare disguised as a dream, Vicki.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:59:25 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Great post, Vicki - thank you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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