Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 20, 2001 To: Nov 27, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Marianne -:- Don't engage the trolls, PLEASE -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:26:55 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Marry them instead.. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:55:15 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Can't the FA delete these cult dickheads? (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 06:46:37 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- They can but MAY they do so? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:36:46 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- In my day. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:34:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I agree with Anth that if my fellow -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:07:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hey, Carlos, would you be my assistant?? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:41:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I would be happy to help in -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:47:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Carlos -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:23:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I like Carlos :) [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:40:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: I like Carlos :) Me too. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:46:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- DUH! the dickheads are banned -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:39:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: In my day. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:45:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Kick out the Trolls. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:59:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Kick out the Trolls--That's My Vote [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:05:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Okay! Everyone please vote -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:31:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Okay! Everyone please vote -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:48:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Forum is not a democracy. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:21:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I prefer the TROLL ALERT warnings -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:37:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Pat, I missed it... -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:11:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I'm glad you missed it, Cynthia [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:50:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- If it's not too much work -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 18:30:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Okay! Everyone please vote -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 18:06:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Okay! Everyone please vote -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 09:20:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Ban roll-on -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 02:07:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Ban roll-on -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:51:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Someday, maybe this year -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 12:33:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Berkeley's still Berkeley OT -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:33:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Someday, maybe this year -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 12:31:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Carl if you come to SF look us up... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:04:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Me too, Carl! -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 00:58:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- That would be so cool! (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 08:10:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- I never read his posts. I abstain [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 19:16:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Just say when, oldtimer! [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:41:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- I vote Out with the DECOY posts -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:34:37 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- I must be a slow learner -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:35:06 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- ame kind of cult zealotry which -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:47:27 (EST)
__ __ JohnT -:- May I make a suggestion? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 07:31:37 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Read Marianne's post 1st, PLEASE -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:47:58 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I think Deleting Them is Best... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:32:47 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) channeling Nancy Reagan -:- JUST SAY NO TO CULTWEASELS! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:41:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: JUST SAY NO TO CULTWEASELS! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:58:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatD -:- betrayers of the love within yourselves -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:56:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Clive -:- yes, your love betrayed, no-one elses. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 22:59:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- Not in the same ballpark -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:08:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not all exes are the same, Clive -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:23:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- What you're saying if fluff -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 23:58:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Get out of his face, Deborah! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:27:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Have you lost it, Jim? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:50:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- It's the new, kinder, gentler Jim, Deb -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:39:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Lost what? My sense of humour? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:57:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- YUP, I missed the joke - Jim -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 16:00:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- You spelled humor wrong. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:43:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- Thanks, Jim, you seem like the only ex... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:33:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Clyve, I'm not the ONLY good ex -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:42:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- Thanks, Jim, I will email you -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:29:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Jsut remember, we're not all the same -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:35:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- That's cool, Jim. Peace, brother -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:41:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- PS, Jim. Nice talking to you -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:21:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Troll alert [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:23:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- Fuck off you sad pathetic looser -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:26:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks Clyve but to be fair .... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:31:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- You're in a cult, Jim. Herd mentality. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:26:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- No, you've got it wrong, cultweasel. -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:29:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clive -:- Re: What you're saying if fluff -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:29:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: What you're saying :? fluff? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 07:00:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Very well said, Janet -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:17:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Oh I see alright, right through you... [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:53:48 (EST)

Beachboy -:- Michael John and Lesley -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:15:49 (EST)

Peter Howie -:- The Con & scapegoats -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:39:42 (EST)

Peter Howie -:- Blind obedience & John McG's post -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:18:37 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, another reasonable premie! -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:08:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- How dare you attack yet another premie like this? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:16:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- He attacked us wacky-baccy smokers first -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:21:05 (EST)
__ __ Excusez Moi -:- Blinders: Selective Vision -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:38:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- ***Warning: Herd Identification*** -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:12:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Excusez Moi -:- I'm Not Worthy, I'm Not Worthy... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:30:16 (EST)
__ G -:- not so contradictory -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:44:38 (EST)
__ __ G -:- What if he's wrong? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:09:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ G -:- not talking about opinions -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 19:59:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- a piddling wage makes not a slave -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:49:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- really structured as in totalitarian? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:33:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- How about addressing the issues? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:03:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh G, give it up -- Cat's a coward -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:23:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Give Cat a little room, G -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:55:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chairman Maoraji -:- Jim, Jim, Jim... -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:06:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Oh gosh, I forgot -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:03:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Clyve -:- You're sooo wrong, G -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:34:52 (EST)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: What a fool believes- he sees' -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:25 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Extremely poor communication -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- But what about the cable example? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:58:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: But what about the cable example? -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 23:14:15 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Right that's it -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:23:46 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Contradictory accounts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EST)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Contradictory accounts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:01:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Excellent posts Peter -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:25:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Excellent posts Peter -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:40:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:17:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- consulting industry is empty -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:08:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:13:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Pete, what can I say? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:47:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- How to ever do 'good' is the question -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:33:11 (EST)

eDrek and Marianne -:- When two or more are gathered... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:06:52 (EST)
__ janet -:- Re: When two or more are gathered... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:23:31 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Janet, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:27:29 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Happy Thanksgiving eDrek & Marianne -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:19:40 (EST)
__ Selene -:- there are more -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:15:03 (EST)

ET -:- 'Realizing' Knowledge -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:13:40 (EST)
__ AJW -:- 'Realizing' Knowledge -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:03:57 (EST)
__ Jim -:- This was my first 'drip' -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:00:24 (EST)
__ __ ET -:- Realize in in Room -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:55:16 (EST)
__ __ hamzen -:- U never experienced grace states on acid? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:18:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Re: U never experienced grace states on acid? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:28:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Couldn't agree more Jim..hi/bye. -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:20:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Ditto [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:36:12 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- For myself it was VERY real -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:58 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- What does 'Enlightenment' Mean? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:12:25 (EST)
__ __ __ The Use Of Reason : -:- to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:49:54 (EST)
__ __ 'Grok' is such -:- a lovely word, -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:21:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Grok -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:27:25 (EST)

hamzen -:- Call me naive but -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:56:34 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Hey Hammy - sounds, etc.. (ot) -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:58:49 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Ok - here's the link.. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:11:41 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- OKAY, you're naive ;) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:18:24 (EST)
__ __ a d -:- hamzen naive ;) - you - plain scary -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:58:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Industrial strength Troll alert -:- hamzen naive ;) - you - plain scary [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:10:35 (EST)
__ Selene -:- Re: Call me naive but -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:10:09 (EST)
__ __ hamzen -:- Your timings excellent -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:23:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Selene -:- will email postal address -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:49 (EST)

suchabanana -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:38:20 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Ditto and Thank You -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:36:39 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:26:55 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Don't engage the trolls, PLEASE
Message:
There are several premies who post here who hijack the forum, especially when important posts and topics come up. They make posts which cause us -- me included -- to fight with them and then the important topics and threads disappear. Please don't pay attention. One such post appears below. People are coming here to get information and the destabilizing posts make it difficult for them to find what they are looking for.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:55:15 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marry them instead..
Message:
No, you're right Mar. In fact, I have spent all day ignoring them, and enjoyed it so much, I am going to stay up late and do it some more into the wee small hours..;)

(xxx from Moley)

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 06:46:37 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Can't the FA delete these cult dickheads? (nt)
Message:
They're a waste of pixels.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:36:46 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: They can but MAY they do so?
Message:
Anything that is obviously vicious (like references to a person's kids or private life) should be deleted but most of the cultweasel stuff is nonsense anyway and should simply be ignored. Deleting them may even make them more determined to disrupt. Not responding is definitely the solution.

I'll remind you to ignore them if you remind me when I forget - just as long as you don't start nagging me to remember my breath or enjoy life, okay?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:34:47 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: In my day.
Message:
Hi Pat,

When I did duty as FA, I just used to delete troll posts as they appeared. The dickheads soon stopped posting when they realised they were wasting their time.

I really think the forum is a much better place without them.

It's like running a bar, and there's this twat who keeps coming in and annoying the locals. In the end, it's best to ban him and kick him out.

Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again.

What's the use in having the POWER if you don't use it Pat? This isn't a place for cultheads to spout their crap.

Fuck the premie trolls. Kick them off. Wocha worried about? They are knuckle head, toe kissing, amoral dickheads. This is a much nicer place without them.

Also Pat, if you delete them quickly, nobody even knows they were there, and life goes on quite merrily, and nobody ever complains.

Anth the reasonable

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:07:24 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I agree with Anth that if my fellow
Message:
Hi Pat,

When I did duty as FA, I just used to delete troll posts as they appeared. The dickheads soon stopped posting when they realised they were wasting their time.

I really think the forum is a much better place without them.

It's like running a bar, and there's this twat who keeps coming in and annoying the locals. In the end, it's best to ban him and kick him out.

Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again.

What's the use in having the POWER if you don't use it Pat? This isn't a place for cultheads to spout their crap.

Fuck the premie trolls. Kick them off. Wocha worried about? They are knuckle head, toe kissing, amoral dickheads. This is a much nicer place without them.

Also Pat, if you delete them quickly, nobody even knows they were there, and life goes on quite merrily, and nobody ever complains.

Anth the reasonable


---

PWKs who are still students of M's who post here misbehave they should be deleated. And throwing satsang at you guys here is misbehaving. So is you guys throwing anti satsang over at LG. To be anti the topic of a BB is rude, period.

Please note I'm only agreeing with Anthe that the power to delete should be used, apropriately. I do not endorse much of his opinions about non-troll PWKs.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:41:13 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Hey, Carlos, would you be my assistant??
Message:
Hi Pat,

When I did duty as FA, I just used to delete troll posts as they appeared. The dickheads soon stopped posting when they realised they were wasting their time.

I really think the forum is a much better place without them.

It's like running a bar, and there's this twat who keeps coming in and annoying the locals. In the end, it's best to ban him and kick him out.

Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again.

What's the use in having the POWER if you don't use it Pat? This isn't a place for cultheads to spout their crap.

Fuck the premie trolls. Kick them off. Wocha worried about? They are knuckle head, toe kissing, amoral dickheads. This is a much nicer place without them.

Also Pat, if you delete them quickly, nobody even knows they were there, and life goes on quite merrily, and nobody ever complains.

Anth the reasonable


---

PWKs who are still students of M's who post here misbehave they should be deleated. And throwing satsang at you guys here is misbehaving. So is you guys throwing anti satsang over at LG. To be anti the topic of a BB is rude, period.

Please note I'm only agreeing with Anthe that the power to delete should be used, apropriately. I do not endorse much of his opinions about non-troll PWKs.


---

Carlos, I'm absolutely serious too. You know I trust you and I agree with everything you just said. The other solution is a password protected forum like Chris Dickey's PW protected premie forum.

Did you know that the CAC attack was a copy of a Scientology attack on it's former members which was created by paid professional cult apologists?

Have you looked at any of the scary posts made here by anonymous premies? Have you seen how they are trying to intimidate the women and the filthy names they have called them? Perhaps they attack the women because they think women react more emotionally and get hurt more easily.

I'm at a loss here and would very much appreciate your advice on how to deal with these people. I've never really known any premies like this ever before. They really make me sad.

The problem is that, if you delete them or block them they come back with new IP#s and new aliases. A couple of them think that they'll drive us nuts running around deleting them and are having fun with that game. The fact is I am squeamish about censorship too.

I would prefer to leave their ugly posts to let their hateful words speak for themselves but it is upsetting most of the women here and many of the men. I honestly don't know what the answer is and would appreciate your input.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:47:43 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I would be happy to help in
Message:
Hi Pat,

When I did duty as FA, I just used to delete troll posts as they appeared. The dickheads soon stopped posting when they realised they were wasting their time.

I really think the forum is a much better place without them.

It's like running a bar, and there's this twat who keeps coming in and annoying the locals. In the end, it's best to ban him and kick him out.

Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again.

What's the use in having the POWER if you don't use it Pat? This isn't a place for cultheads to spout their crap.

Fuck the premie trolls. Kick them off. Wocha worried about? They are knuckle head, toe kissing, amoral dickheads. This is a much nicer place without them.

Also Pat, if you delete them quickly, nobody even knows they were there, and life goes on quite merrily, and nobody ever complains.

Anth the reasonable


---

PWKs who are still students of M's who post here misbehave they should be deleated. And throwing satsang at you guys here is misbehaving. So is you guys throwing anti satsang over at LG. To be anti the topic of a BB is rude, period.

Please note I'm only agreeing with Anthe that the power to delete should be used, apropriately. I do not endorse much of his opinions about non-troll PWKs.


---

Carlos, I'm absolutely serious too. You know I trust you and I agree with everything you just said. The other solution is a password protected forum like Chris Dickey's PW protected premie forum.

Did you know that the CAC attack was a copy of a Scientology attack on it's former members which was created by paid professional cult apologists?

Have you looked at any of the scary posts made here by anonymous premies? Have you seen how they are trying to intimidate the women and the filthy names they have called them? Perhaps they attack the women because they think women react more emotionally and get hurt more easily.

I'm at a loss here and would very much appreciate your advice on how to deal with these people. I've never really known any premies like this ever before. They really make me sad.

The problem is that, if you delete them or block them they come back with new IP#s and new aliases. A couple of them think that they'll drive us nuts running around deleting them and are having fun with that game. The fact is I am squeamish about censorship too.

I would prefer to leave their ugly posts to let their hateful words speak for themselves but it is upsetting most of the women here and many of the men. I honestly don't know what the answer is and would appreciate your input.


---

any way I feel is apropriate. Problem is I'm likely to remain anrepentent Bhakti premie my whole life and never become an ex. And F7 IS the forum for you exes. I don't see how I could avoid a tremendous conflict of interest if I were to be an FA here.

But I'd be happy to give you feedback if there is ever a case you feel is borderline. And I feel if you got the FAs/Assistant FAs to take turns reading all the new posts and deleating ones that clearly cross the line, that could work. Trolls would never be posted for more than a part of 1 day then. Some would last a little longer, till it was decided that s/he had gone too far, in grey area posts. But setting up clear guidelines that the FAs & AFAs could all agree on would keep that to a minimum.

And I think what Anth found to be true when he did it would probably still be true today. Most of the trolls would soon give up if their inapropriate stuff was quickly taken down. Only way to find out is to doi it and see what happens.

Yes, I've seen some of the garbage some sico's post. Yes, something needs to be done. Yes, most premies are nice folks, and therefor most exes are nice folks. But we have our sicos, too. If they come back witrh a different name, Fuck 'em. Delete their new posts, too; unless they are OK posts, get rid of them. Just don't make a big deal out of it while doing it. Let them see that their bullshit is unimportant, powerless stuff that you are getting rid of cause you want the space for stuff that has value. Take that kind of attitude and they won't want to come back because they won't be getting what they want, which is to cause turmoil in ex-land and thereby validate their pathetic little selves.

Yes, I'd heard that about CAC & the earlier Sciento;ogy site.

Call me, if you like. About thius or anything.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:23:07 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Thanks, Carlos
Message:
I will take you up on your offer of help. I'm sure you know I don't care if you're an unrepentant bhakti. My friend, Cos, is too. It's not loving people I have a problem with. It's the nasty, spiteful ones.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:40:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I like Carlos :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:46:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: I like Carlos :) Me too.
Message:
He's honest, kind and broadminded - a decent man.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:39:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: DUH! the dickheads are banned
Message:
They just told JHB, Gerry and other FA's to fuck off, that they were too clever to stay away.

They have threatened you NOT to bother banning anymore because they don't respect your conditions for being here and they love to be mysogynistic. They want to post to the guys to diffuse the importance of the posts. It's a tactic.

They say they are balancing the opinions but that is a lie. They blantantly lie and insult any poster who says 'boo' against them. They are bullies who seriously believe they are above all laws. They push their way on to the board than say whatever the fuck they please, regardless of how ugly.

The exes are balancing their own opinions. Do we agree with each other. NO. That, my friends, is what you call self-correcting.

Katies's friend's email was a balance. I'm perfectly fine with that email even though it had inherent contradictions. But so did John McG's post. He was over-analytical with little new-agey rationals but both posts were honest posts. That's balance.

WE are banning abusive insulting trolls who have a wicked history and no remorse for previous viciousness. They are not apologetic and in denial for posts they left 5-minutes ago.

I was banned from LG. Big deal. Do you see me posting there. Don't you think I could? I have exposure to hundreds of computers. I'm at a University with keys to rooms in three departments. I also have access to Supercomputers, in the Engineering lab. Proxies. You name it.

But invading a forum because you can doesnt' make it right. People won't want to stay if they see this shit on the board all the time and their posts are intended to take up people's time so they can't read all the good stuff.

Where's the balance?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:45:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: In my day.
Message:
Anth:

Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again.

But, there are always those regulars who clue in the folks who don't know what total asshole wasters, losers, manipulators the trolls are. Cling-ons. Pains in the asses. Mean and nasty, trying to pull me into that mind-set of (cough) hate--a feeling I very seldom have.

The other part is not only to ignore them, but not to read them!

Cynthia, who likes to be bossy and is a lousy team player--I want to lead!

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:59:22 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Kick out the Trolls.
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

The advantage with kicking their posts off as soon as they appear, (besides eventually getting rid of them), is that nobody has to avoid reading their dumbass, culthead abuse and propaganda, because they aren't there to read. This is why I'm in favour of kicking them off.

I used to do it when I was FA, and they soon stop posting when they realise they are wasting their time. I think they go to another forum somewhere, which I usually ignore.

Anth 'If I had the wings of a sparrow, '

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:05:35 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Kick out the Trolls--That's My Vote [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:31:22 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Okay! Everyone please vote
Message:
If the majority agree that troll posts should be deleted, I'll be happy to delete them. Let's get this straight first - are we all talking about the same two regular trolls, SC and CW? The bar bores with bad breath?
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:48:14 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Okay! Everyone please vote
Message:
The ideal forum, IMHO, would be an open, intelligent and mutually respectful conversation. Well, that's a lofty dream but improbable. However, we should be able to decide what the forum is to be and not tolerate troublemakers.

I wouldn't want the forum be a mutual admiration society that all thinks alike. I enjoy it when the occasional PWK posts here and then sticks around to engage in dialogue. (The Andersons, Blue Max, anyone else?) It opens up the conversation and may present strongly held viewpoints that deserve to be debated.

That said, I see no value in trying to tango with someone doing the wobble dance. Drive-by satsang or hit-and-run (as it were) spammers deserve no respect or tolerance. So nuke the trolls at will but let the ambassadors of M post.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 07:21:27 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: The Forum is not a democracy.
Message:
It's a benevolent dictatorship.

Use the POWER, kick the bastards off.

Anth the benevolent citizen.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:37:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I prefer the TROLL ALERT warnings
Message:
Yesterday, on your advice, I deleted a vicious post to Cynthia. While I was at work, the troll posted again and Deb responded. If I had not deleted it and instead posted a TROLL ALERT, she may have spared herself more unpleasantness as the trolls seem to specialize in insulting the women here.
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:11:48 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks, Pat, I missed it...
Message:
It was probably SC. He's a particularly nasty one.

Many thanks,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:50:31 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I'm glad you missed it, Cynthia [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 18:30:05 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: If it's not too much work
Message:
If it's not too much work for you. But I'm wondering if that would just result in alternate personas and spam.

It would be easier to just ignore them. But people can't seem to do that. Oh, the seductive, seductive Cat.

My vote is, remove the posts when you can, don't get too anal about it, and self-control goes a long way. Of course, we keep getting new people on the board all the time, and they may start engaging the trolls, so the less of their posts, the better. They don't add a thing to the discussion, except occasionally.

--f

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 18:06:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Okay! Everyone please vote
Message:
I banned CW from FV for off-topic posts, and proceeded to delete many of his posts which irked him a little, but not much. He really seems to be insane. We at least enjoy rational debate and discussing something that was an important part of our lives. What can Cat possibly get out of this? And it's not as though it's a small part of his life. If anyone mentions Cat in a post, he's there to respond with some contentless response, so he must be reading everything. That requires dedication or obsession. He can't possibly get any intellectual satisfaction from his contributions here, as he never contributes any intellectual content, and he certainly gets no camaraderie from exes posting here.

No, all I can assume is that he is mentally imbalanced, obessively compulsive, and deeply unhappy.

John.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 09:20:37 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Okay! Everyone please vote
Message:
Or.....
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 02:07:37 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Ban roll-on
Message:
That is, ban the proven turditos. This forum doesn't need a bunch of weaselly time-and-space wasters that essentially 'nyah nyah nyah' like immature third graders.

I can see how some folks get a kick out of getting down and dirty with 'em -- sharpening one's claws and so on -- but there are other fora for that: AG, LG, maybe others.

But is any premie necessarily a troll? IMO, only if they refuse to deal with questions and issues in a spirit of true inquiry, and instead toss red herrings, straw men, denial and insult into the mix. Who needs it? A monumental waste of time.

But if some premie, a fence-sitter perhaps, wants to engage in a dialogue, then I don't see why not give them space. Usually some level of emotional honesty can come through in the written words, although a diabolical jerk can always try to fake sincerity.

Even so, most arguments of the ex persuasion hold water quite well; those of the premies leak like a colander. So the exercise isn't wasted. Plenty of onlookers get the benefit regardless.

There will probably always be premie malcontents for whom crashing into this forum will be their little thrill, their 'service', their way of pretending to be Hanuman, loyally defending the Lord, racking up good karma for a favorable birth in their next incarnation or something. When their true colors show, just ignore 'em. Don't engage. Then ban 'em.

I like it when someone flags a post with 'Troll Alert': I just don't bother with those. It is a sort of Pyrrhic victory to shout down, trade insults or vanquish them in debate. The thrill of indignation and well-expressed righteous anger just isn't worth the major waste of time on such calcified cultheads, imo. They may think they are being like agents provocateurs, but their lack of sincerity has already doomed them, the poor lost souls.

Carl

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 04:51:13 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: Ban roll-on
Message:
Excellently put, Carl. Thanks for the effort to express that. It was like a bright light shone into a dark corner.

This was brilliant: ""It is a sort of Pyrrhic victory to shout down, trade insults or vanquish them in debate. The thrill of indignation and well-expressed righteous anger just isn't worth the major waste of time on such calcified cultheads, imo. They may think they are being like agents provocateurs, but their lack of sincerity has already doomed them, the poor lost souls.""

I hope to meet the man who wrote those words one day. Thank you.

I agree about the TROLL ALERT warnings. I'll give a heads up and hope you and others will too.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 12:33:10 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Someday, maybe this year
Message:
I hope my partner & I can visit SF this next year. Would love to meet you and dine at your establishment. What is your veggie menu like?

A long time ago I used to live (pretty much as a hippie street-person) in Berkeley, and would hang out at Moe's Books and various coffee shops on Telegraph Ave. That was around 1970 and 1971. That was where I first heard of M. And of course 'Be Here Now', etc. It was a heady time, and a great time to be young, exploratory, footloose and free. I became a vegetarian before K, and have stayed with it.

Some of my fondest memories are of SF and the CA coast around Big Sur and also up in Marin. That's some exquisite Godly beauty there. I hope it hasn't gotten trashed or overdeveloped. I expect SF has changed a lot. I was there when the Haight was still hanging on as a counterculture enclave. I missed the whole Castro Street scene, not having been out, and was in any case soon swept up into the whole M thing. In some way that may have saved my life, if you know what I mean.

Carl

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:33:37 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Carl
Subject: Berkeley's still Berkeley OT
Message:
Their local governement just passed some resolution banning the war in Afghanistan. The Haight still has enclaves of hippies including old crusty premies but is very yuppified now.

The Castro scene probably would not have appealed to you. Sure, it was a candy store in the 70s but it was strictly eye-candy - not very brotherly and a bit superficial. The Castro-clone culture was never my cup of tea. I preferred the radical faerie types of the Haight - lots of premies, now mostly passed on.

I wish I had done my homeless hippie thing here rather than London in the late 60's early 70s.

Big Sur and west Marin still have huge tracts of undeveloped mountainous areas. The over-development has taken place mostly in the east and south bay areas where it is not so mountainous. This is still a nature lover's paradise.

You'll still love it. Keep in touch by email and let me know when. We'll have a Latvian night for you.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 12:31:27 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Someday, maybe this year
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:04:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Carl if you come to SF look us up...
Message:
Carl, the Castro is a great neighborhood, although the house prices are a bit high. There is a real community spirit, and although it has become a bit of a tourist attraction, it's wonderful the place exists and gay people come from all over the world just to see it.

I live with my partner over the hill in Noe Valley, also a great neighborhood. He has a place in Berkeley, so we also spend a lot of time there, and Berkeley is also great. Tons of great book stores, great restaurants, theater, live music and compared to SF, it feels like the country.

Be sure to look us up if you are in town. I guess one good thing that came out of my cult involvement, is it got me to the Bay Area.

Oh, also, Big Sur is just as beautiful as ever, and not developed. West Marin is also mostly protected, and Point Reyes is a magical place. It feels like the West of Ireland to me.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 00:58:14 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Joe
Subject: Me too, Carl!
Message:
I'd love to spend some time with you and your partner. The SF exes will get together in your honor.

I feel a special bond with you about your sister.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 08:10:57 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: That would be so cool! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 19:16:23 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I never read his posts. I abstain [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:41:34 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Just say when, oldtimer! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:34:37 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I vote Out with the DECOY posts
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:35:06 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: I must be a slow learner
Message:
I actually thought that they may learn something here even if only to communicate on the net democratically. But they haven't gotten any better at that and they really do seem to be incapable of democratic discussion. They also appear to be hardened and closed minded. That kind of attitude is a sign of bigotry or fanaticism - the same kind of cult zealotry which created CAC.

I guess I have to accept that they will not change their ways and are intent on disrupting and hijacking the forum. The words undermining and sabotage spring to mind or at the very least disrespect and anti-social game playing. I have no intention of playing with them anymore. They are not nice people.

However I do have to react to an extent especially when the Borg appear in new disguises pretending to be humans. I'll take the consequences of not having any qualms about drawing attention to anyone who is posting under another alias for malicious purposes.

I'm not a very good policeman but, if you blow your whistle loud enough (by email if necessary) I'll hear it. I can't stand deceitful people and, in this milieu, they take the shape of cult apologists, disruptors and agents provocateurs.

The CACroaches and Cultweasels are simply playing games with us - mindfuck games just like their massa.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:47:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: ame kind of cult zealotry which
Message:
Think CAC authors! Think threats to exes weeks (not years) but weeks before CAC were realized with first CAC sight.

Think tip of 'JIHAD' threat post PatC posted one week before CAC.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 07:31:37 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: May I make a suggestion?
Message:
Once a troll has been banned, any posts they make should be either deleted, or gutted.

By gutted I mean that the contents of the post should be removed by the FA and replaced with a notice saying something like 'Post from banned TROLL whatsisname removed. Please use Life's Great to talk with this TROLL'.

I believe both Roupell and CW have been asked to stop using the forum, so that would be fair.

It may also be an idea to put a sentence or two in the words at the top of the Forum to alert new users of the Troll attacks and to explain the policy of gut and ignore.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:47:58 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Read Marianne's post 1st, PLEASE
Message:
Thanks for the heads up. That bothers me too. I made an attempt to warn people about the other thread only to see it have the opposite effect.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:32:47 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I think Deleting Them is Best...
Message:
Hi all,

Are you exhausted, Pat? Happy Thanksgiving...

Anyway, this subject has been discussed so much it feels like beating a dead horse. I go with the deletion as you described. Censorship? They behave like cyberstalking trolls so must be treated as such. I know it's impossible to delete them all, but as much as you feel you can do.

CW and SC have self-imposed themselves upon us for no purpose other to disrupt. It's hard to resist them because they say abusive stuff and my first impulse is to react. It's childish nontheless.

O well...Have you heard any of Andre Bocelli's work? He's a beautiful tenor and quite a hotty, too. Sad, he's blind.

Just a bit of morning babble...
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:41:45 (EST)
From: Pat:C) channeling Nancy Reagan
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: JUST SAY NO TO CULTWEASELS!
Message:
You're right, Deborah. You said all along there was no need for them. Also they bring out the absolute worst in you and me. ;)
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:58:16 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C) channeling Nancy Reagan
Subject: Re: JUST SAY NO TO CULTWEASELS!
Message:
You're in-the-know!

Pat, it was sooooo nice here last week with all the posts. We don't need abusive shit stealing the forum from out within us. We are putting in a lot of valuable time.

This is not dialogue. It's intentional and flippant abuse. Read DUH! they are already banned post.

How was Thanksgiving at the restaurant?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:56:54 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Clive
Subject: betrayers of the love within yourselves
Message:
I'm divorced Clive, because I discovered that my cosmic lover was a two timing little fuck.

If you can continue to be married to a man who has a secret life entirely at odds with his public face,then let's hear your psychobabble in explanation.

Yeah LILA....explain that,I'm all ears to know why the incarnation of god should be such a shit.

Proud to be scum : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 22:59:05 (EST)
From: Clive
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: yes, your love betrayed, no-one elses.
Message:
We all have a 'secret' (called private in most people's heads) life that is at odds with our public face Pat.

If you haven't been self aware, comfortable enough with yourself and honest enough to admit that (at least to yourself)
then we're not in the same ball park at all.

There is so much lying on this forum, I believe it is not intentional but due to the inescapable fact that many here are completely lying to themselves. It's easier than facing some confronting facts about their own self worth and their sad insignificance to all but a handful of other people.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:08:36 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Clive
Subject: Not in the same ballpark
Message:
How intuitive of you to conclude that.Maybe you've realised Knowledge & can see people's auras or whatever it is happens.

many here are completely lying to themselves

About what exactly?

It's easier than facing some confronting facts about their own self worth and their sad insignificance to all but a handful of other people.

My mental equilibrium is none of your business,& I'm pleased I'm insignificant to all but a handful. I haven't got the ocean of compassion that it takes to be significant to mankind.

Burst the bubble Clive...it's easy..switch on your doubtmaker & run with it .

Don't be one of those who'd believe it's dark outside at 11 in the morning because someone else tells you to.

Where's your self esteem?

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:23:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Clive
Subject: Not all exes are the same, Clive
Message:
We all have a 'secret' (called private in most people's heads) life that is at odds with our public face Pat.

If you haven't been self aware, comfortable enough with yourself and honest enough to admit that (at least to yourself)
then we're not in the same ball park at all.

There is so much lying on this forum, I believe it is not intentional but due to the inescapable fact that many here are completely lying to themselves. It's easier than facing some confronting facts about their own self worth and their sad insignificance to all but a handful of other people.


---

Clive,

I agree that ex-premies have a tendency to lie to themselves and each other just like premies do. There are assholes on each side, if you want to think of it that way. And sometimes it's not even a matter of people being assholes. It's just their paradigm.

But we're not all that bad, Clive! I'm sorry to see that you're not getting a lot of room to express yourself here. Woudl you like to email me?

Take care,

Jim

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 23:58:35 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Clive
Subject: What you're saying if fluff
Message:
It's a filler for words that convey information. What exactly are you addressing?

There is so much lying on this forum,

Be specific, mention the lies by example.

I believe it is not intentional but due to the inescapable fact that many here are completely lying to themselves.

Explain. Lying to ourselves about what? Again, be specific.

It's easier than facing some confronting facts about their own self worth and their sad insignificance to all but a handful of other people.

This sentence changes pronouns, however, even if we correct that problem, it still does not make sense. Please untangle that statement.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:27:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Get out of his face, Deborah!
Message:
Deborah, can't you just agree to disagree sometimes? How do you expect Clive to ever respect you, let alone become your friend, if you don't give him some room, huh? It's your paradigm, girl! Work on it. Lose the crazy wild-dog pack mentality, Deborah. Clive is a person too, don't forget.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:50:21 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Have you lost it, Jim?
Message:
Clive says, 'There is so much lying on this forum'

I say, 'Be specific, mention the lies by example. '

Clive says, ' I believe it is not intentional but due to the inescapable fact that many here are completely lying to themselves.

I say, 'Explain. Lying to ourselves about what? Again, be specific. '

Clive says, 'It's easier than facing some confronting facts about their own self worth and their sad insignificance to all but a handful of other people.

So I say, 'This sentence changes pronouns, however, even if we correct that problem, it still does not make sense. Please untangle that statement. '

And you fuckin say, this is a crazy wild-dog pack mentality.

Do me a favor and stay away from my posts from now on. Will ya?

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:39:31 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: It's the new, kinder, gentler Jim, Deb
Message:
Friend of the premies. A new paradigm for 2002. He's has made me feel quite ashamed of how badly I have been treating premies. I may also adopt the new paradigm. ;)
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:57:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Lost what? My sense of humour?
Message:
Sorry you missed the joke, Deb. I thought it was pretty obvious.
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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 16:00:24 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: YUP, I missed the joke - Jim
Message:
And I've also been away from the computer for 24 hrs. I'm meeting with a study group for my film class and will email you later.

Have fun ~)

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:43:38 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You spelled humor wrong.
Message:
You Canadians don't know how to spell.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:33:45 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim, you seem like the only ex...
Message:
...who realizes that premies are really treated badly on this forum. Keep up the good work.

PatC - couldn't resist.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:42:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Clyve
Subject: No, Clyve, I'm not the ONLY good ex
Message:
Clyve,

I've been flamed and attacked many a time for speaking up honestly for you guys. I know. I can see what's happening. But change takes time, Clyve. Now, would you like to email me or not?

Take care,

Jim

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:29:35 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim, I will email you
Message:
If only there were more exes like you who don't jump to conclusions and think that all of us premies simply want to disrupt the forum and drive poor PatC nuts deleting posts then we could all get along.

Definitely I will email you. I think all this stuff is better discussed privately anyway. The fact that so many exes attack M here publicly is very upsetting. That's the biggest problem us premies have with the exes. Why can't they just get on with their lives and leave M alone?

Love and xxx,

Clyve

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:35:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Clyve
Subject: Jsut remember, we're not all the same
Message:
Clyve,

There are assholes on both sides, as you know. Perhaps if you put a peace sign on your posts no one would attack you or something.

But yes, email me.

Take care,

Jim

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:41:18 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's cool, Jim. Peace, brother
Message:
I feel at last as if this forum may become a place where us premies would be welcome to talk about the wonderful gift that M has given us.

I just wish you had been to the Philly program. It was just great. M had us laughing and crying about.....well, I can't remember what he said but it was his usual deep wisdom and wonderful warm love. You know, like it's just beyond words that feeling.

Love,

Your brother Clyve.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:21:50 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: Clyve
Subject: PS, Jim. Nice talking to you
Message:
I got to go now as I am facilitating a training today. I know most exes think that all I do is put a bunch of fruits, nuts and vegetables in a blender and push the button but the trainings really are helping so many people to understand more about this wonderful gift of K and how kind M is.

Love, Clyde

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:23:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Clyve
Subject: Troll alert [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:26:12 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Fuck off you sad pathetic looser
Message:
It's exes like you who are just perpetuating your sick and twisted hate. Now if more exes were like Jim...well they aren't. Most of them are disgusting hateful mentally cripple paranoid schizos like you you fucking sick creep with your psychobabble.

So go ahead and delete me. That's censorship. You are afraid to hear the truth. You still love M but only think you hate him. Just remember your breath and you will be back in his arms, you sick fucker.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:31:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Clyve
Subject: Thanks Clyve but to be fair ....
Message:
Clyve,

Please, I think it's unfair to say that most exes are 'disgusting hateful mentally cripple paranoid schizos'. After all, there may or may not be a whole bunch of other exes on RE who aren't at all like that.

Anyway, even if PatC is a 'fucking sick creep', as you put it, I'm not sure that it's fair to dismiss everything he just said to you as psychobabble.

Take care, Clyve,

Jim

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:26:30 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're in a cult, Jim. Herd mentality.
Message:
I thought you hated PatC because he doesn't like rock n roll but no when it comes to sticking up for each other against exes there you are ganging up on us every time with your cult think and group mentality.

PS I don't think I will bother to email you.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:29:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Clyve
Subject: No, you've got it wrong, cultweasel.
Message:
Jim doesn't hate me. I hate him because he won't lend me that little pink Jackie O number with matching pillbox hat that he wore to darshan in Amaroo. You cultweasels always twist things around.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:29:32 (EST)
From: Clive
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: What you're saying if fluff
Message:
Ok here's a suitable translation for the hard of seeing.

some people are too scared to admit that they are devoid of any real self esteem.

some people are too scared to admit that, far from being important or relevant, they are in fact totally insignificant to all but a handful of people - if that.

I believe this is a worldwide problem as technology marches ever onward.

The lying on this forum is based on the two above mindsets, it's an inescapable dilema for those without inner confidence or real outer friends. It leads inexorably to chatrooms where nobody will ever actually 'know' you. That way you can stay hidden despite all the pompous boasting about 'posting as myself' which just happens to be the biggest lie of them all.

I hope that simple explanation makes your plight a little clearer to see and understand.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 07:00:08 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Clive
Subject: Re: What you're saying :? fluff?
Message:
Yours is a most peculiar post, clive. what a strange set of statements.
we all had an experience of maharaji, here. we are talking about it.
is it something about communicating over the internet that you are denigrating? if so, why are you in here, communicating with us over the internet?

you speak of absence of self worth. and yet years of maharaji's abuse of us was aimed at stripping us of any sense of self worth. the only one who was supposed to have any worth was him.
and we who are talking to one another here are here because we did hit a boundary of self worth that we realized we just weren;t willling to be dragged past, and there we parted company with the great abuser-and all his little aprentice abusers--and came here instead.
your post is pretty much senseless. it makes me wonder what you saw or read that so got to you, that you felt you had to post something.

your peculiar comment about 'posting as myself' being a lie, is a real classic mixed message, a no win kind of headfuck that, by design, can't be addressed and is only supposed to dissolve self worth.
I post here as myself. I knew quite a number of these other people who post as themselves, too. when we compare notes on our days in the thick of premiedom, we tell each other about our real first person memories of being there. you speak of chat rooms where people put on fake personas. this isnt a chat room. its a forum. we don't come here to pick up the opposite sex and cyber. we come here to unwind the ways in which being involved with maharji harmed us.its good to see that you're sensitive to people presenting themselves publically as something they're not. that shows you have the tools to deconstruct the entire EV MO as well as the Head guy's.

funny you comment on us as to whether we are significant or not. we know we're significant. how do we know? well, for one, ppeople here take the time to tell us personally when something we have contributed, affects them and helps them greatly.

does much of that go on in the premie world, these days? it never did while i was in it.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:17:52 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Very well said, Janet
Message:
But actually I don't mind being insignificant. I've never really been ambitious. The fake significance of being a premie who has some special secret Knowledge really was a barrier between me and the rest of humanity.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 17:53:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Clive
Subject: Oh I see alright, right through you... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:15:49 (EST)
From: Beachboy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Michael John and Lesley
Message:
Time to head for the beach!
Your sophistry and navel gazing is tres boring.
You Aussies should be having more fun!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:39:42 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Con & scapegoats
Message:
I'm not sure if this happened at the trainings but a favourite of the con games is the 'plant'. The plant either makes money or fails just short of making money in order to lure the 'mark' into gampling their money on a con.

If this was the case with the training then the 'plant' would be expecting to be knowked off or out and would come back at a later time or to another session.

This is seen in street auctions or small shop auctions. The auctioneer seems to be giving away fantastic bargains - but they always elude you or me -it is the person behind you or beside you that gets them. Of course after a few sales they all meet out of sight and return the goods and split the fees and go and start again.

Cheers

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

ps I am somewhat delighted that the Amaroo mob were so problematic. It goes to show that human development and desire for expansion can't always be stifled.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:18:37 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Blind obedience & John McG's post
Message:
John's remembered quote of MJ 'If a manager tells you to dig a hole immediately above a buried electrical cable then the only thing you are to say is 'How deep' ' - is very reminiscent of the 70's. It also entrenches the beauracracy as channelling the grace. To me it also contradicts CW's story that the whole organisation of the 80's was about individuals going mad and nothing to do with MJ.

At that time whatever was asked by various people in the beauracracy was as good as 'agya'. It sems that this is still the case. It is all a different version of the premie on the movie LOTU saying that they would slit someones throat. More scary is imagining following some loopy premie's idea about something because of their positional authority in the organisation.

John's quote seems to contradict Katie's friend who talks about 'taking off shoes, socks, pants' story. ????

Anyway perception rules. Like Joe said below - some people will take enormous effort to maintain a worldview. And don't we all? It is the 'rose coloured glasses' syndrome except in this case it is the 'MJ coloured glasses'. In psychology this is called a 'theme effect' - where a particular way of seeing the world colourers everything. e.g. people who have been abused seeing everything through the perspective of 'abuse/victim' lens. People who have been ripped off seeing everything through the perspective of 'don't trust' lens, etc. In this case people who are devotees seeing everything as 'lila of lord'.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:08:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Another PAM
Subject: Hey, another reasonable premie!
Message:
You guys be careful, please, to give this guy sufficient room to express himself, 'kay? Otherwise, we're every bit as bad as them. See, I'm learning. In fact, I think I'm actually changing my paradigm!
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:16:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Troll Alert
Subject: How dare you attack yet another premie like this?
Message:
How would you like it if the very first time you posted here someone replied with a 'Troll Alert' warning? I'm ashamed to call myself an ex-premie right now. I think I'm going to be ill.

Sorry, Another PAM, some of us are working to change things around here. Until we do, though, I can't gurantee your safety. Perhaps you'd like to email me?

Take care,

Jim

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:21:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He attacked us wacky-baccy smokers first
Message:
I must have reacted with my usual paranoid schizophrenia.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 13:38:14 (EST)
From: Excusez Moi
Email: None
To: Another PAM
Subject: Blinders: Selective Vision
Message:
He also has a liking for other people's wives and pot-smoking too. Excess of smoking wacky backy is known to make one paranoid with a tendency towards schizophrenia!

Funny how you guys/gals resort to ad hominem attacks on John Macgregor as a rebuttal to his statements.

Wouldn't you agree, Another PAM, that the above statement you made to discredit John happens also to be true about Maharaji? Granted, Maharaji (a married man, lest you forget) might not have a taste for other men's wives, be he has used PAMs (maybe you're one) to procure his women for him, and he also has a long time mistress, for whom he bought a house in the San Fernando Valley. Maharaji (and copious amounts of premies) have also been known to indulge in the wacky tabacky, so perhaps the 'tendency toward schizophrenia' you mention is the result of your direct observation of Maharaji and said pot-smoking premies. As an aside, you're ignorance about pot smoking and its relation schizophrenia underscores your ignorance, but that's okay with you, I assume, because you don't mind being ignorant for the Lord.

Instead of lobbing your ad hominems over the transom like some verbal terrorist, why not refute John's statements with some facts of your own. You're a PAM, so you must have some countervailing facts bouncing around your cranium, unless you've lost the key to that safe-deposit box. Please enlighten us. We're listening.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:12:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Excusez Moi
Subject: ***Warning: Herd Identification***
Message:
I don't like what I'm seeing here. Looks to me like a frenzied pack of wild dogs lunging at the throat of yet another reasonable premie. All Another PAM's trying to do is express himself. But you guys .....

Come on, it's not so black-and-white. Give the guy a break.

Sorry, Another PAM, you were saying?

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:30:16 (EST)
From: Excusez Moi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm Not Worthy, I'm Not Worthy...
Message:
Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, Jim. Like Pat, my paranoid schizophrenia must've kicked in. Where's my psychotropics? Can't remember the name of my meds, but they sound like a carnival ride... Thought I could ween myself offa the suckers, but no, what do I do, attack a clear and premie. A PAM at that. Oh begorrah, Oy veh!

Hair shirt and iron maiden, here I come, and if I'm lucky, the rack.

Kyrie elieson, kyrie elieson, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, dominus vobiscum. And the Pope's phone number: Et Cum Spiri tu tu o. Must call the Big Guy for a dispensation quick before he shucks his mortal coil.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:44:38 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: not so contradictory
Message:
I don't think the 'dig the ditch' quote really contradicted the 'shoes, socks, pants' edicts. Tke pwikies did take off their shoes and socks, didn't they? Sounds like humiliating subservience to me. And Rawat did initially say 'take off you pants', didn't he? Very weird. What if he hadn't then ORDERED them NOT to take off their pants? What would have happened? Even in NOT taking off their pants, they were in a way obeying Rawat, at least that's the way Rawat made it seem. That was one hell of a mixed-message mind fuck. It's like he's saying 'I could make you take off your pants, but I won't.' The rest is just a cover, just like intro programs are, and him saying that he nevered said he was God. He manipulates them to be blindly obedient, then rubs their subservience in their faces, blaming them for it, showing them how much they are acting like snivaling worms, how 'no good' they are. This is a typical dominance/submission game. T
he Master has to insult the dog for being so cowardly submissive, that comes with the territory.

When a mixed message happened, the recipient of the mind fuck takes into what the real message is, but is not necessarily aware of it, they are very confused. The real message is not clearly stated, and in a way that makes it have more of an effect, like implying that someone is stupid, that's more effective than just saying 'You're stupid.' It's a way to get around people's defences.

Many years ago a honcho told a story about Rawat ordering him to run a red light. Rawat didn't then recind the order. The honcho didn't run the light. Rawat said 'Maybe next time.' The fact that Rawat told him to run a red light, to do something dangerous, is a warning signal.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:09:14 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: What if he's wrong?
Message:
Your manager might be wrong. YOu shouldn't bet your life that your manager is correct, that's something you should verify yourself.
I think your interpretation is just a rationalization. You should NOT ask 'How deep?', if you want to know how deep the cables are buried, your should ask 'How deep are the cables'. But before that, you should challenge the order to dig over electrical cables. Is it really needed? Isn't there another place to dig the hole? Why over electrical cables? Why did you tell me to dig a hole here without telling me there are electrical cables and how deep they are? Are you some kind of idiot? Are you trying to get me KILLED??? THOSE are the questions you should ask.
A situation like that, where someone's life is at stake, should be discussed in depth. Think of all the useless tasks that premies have been told to do, and like mindless slaves, they do it.
Also consider DECCA, where in fact premies DID work in harmful conditions (chemicals) and WERE physically harmed, thanks to the so-called merciful Rawat. They didn't question what was going on.
So your interpretation is proved false by the facts.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 19:59:21 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: not talking about opinions
Message:
You don't get it at all. First, you're a volunteer and as a volunteer - not slave - you don't have to do a single thing that you are told. If you don't want to dig a hole over electrical cables, you don't have to. You should ask the questions a proposed. Of course, you - like a coward - don't address them. You should also ask yourself 'Do I want to do this? IF so, a BIG IF, do I want to bet my life on the assumption that this manager is correct?' If you don't feel like digging, don't dig!
I wouldn't be seeking his opinion, it's not a matter of his opinion. He could simply be mistaken, and it wouldn't be his opinion. The records could be wrong or he could read them wrong or not rememmber correctly. Things like that have things have happened. There WOULD a need to wonder. I value my life. Do you value yours?
Digging over electrical cables is NOT something to be taken so lightly that you should just trust and do what you're told.
What Rawat is telling you is to have absolute faith in him and Elan Vital. What a bunch of crap.
IF he told you, 'Here, drink this Kool-Aid.', what would you do?
I know one thing, I wouldn't drink it. Nor would I dig, I'd say 'You do it, if you're so sure it's safe.' Of course,I wouldn't be there in the first place, it's a collosal waste of time. A cult compound in rural Australia, what a ridiculous idea. I was there once, due to my foolishness, and it was weird. Flies everywhere, Rawat not showing the techniques to people who had travelled long distances (What the hell does he want anyway? Who does he think he is thinking he knows whether they are 'sincere' and 'ready' enough? They travelled a long distance, of course they want to be shown the techniques.), lousy food, tropical sun beating down, warnings about snakes.

The first question to ask yourself in that situation is 'What the hell am I doing even being here?'

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:49:41 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: a piddling wage makes not a slave
Message:
Just because some - not all - of the 'trainees' were paid a piddling wage for their still largely volunteer work, that doesn't mean they have to do what they are told.

In Construction Safety it states:
'1. Have all underground services been located?
Before digging starts, make sure you know the exact location of any undergound electrical cables, gas lines, water and sewrage and telecommunications cables. Do not rely solely on site plans and drawings as these are sometimes not accurate or complete. Seek assistance from the local services and distribution companies.'

They have a right to refuse to dig, and they have a right to thoroughly check things out, to make sure that they are safe. They are not obligated to leave their fate in the hands of their manager.

It sounds, based on the context of the training, the wording, and Rawat's dictatorial history, that he meant 'How deep should I dig the hole massa?' and that the volunteer (they don't have to be there and most could make much more money elsewhere) should blindly trust their manager. But even if you were correct, there's still a problem. If they have to ask how deep the cables are then something is terribly wrong, they shouldn't have to ask that question. They should have been told by their manager, the fact that they were not is a warning sign. Therefore they should ask all the questions I raised.

Now how about addressing the issues/questions?

If M told you to run a red light (like to did to a premie) would you do it? If he handed you some Kool-Aid and told you to drink it, would you do it? How about Kool-Aid you knew to be poisoned?

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 19:33:16 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: really structured as in totalitarian?
Message:
'It sounds like that because that is the way John wrote it.'
No, because of the reasons I stated which you have not addressed.
You are wrong about salaries and wages'
Simply saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so. How do you figure I'm wrong? Suppose I hire a cleaning lady and I tell her 'Hey honey, I've got something special for you to clean.' Does she have to do what I say just because I'm paying her?
'wrong about your interpretation of how a Contractor/employee must do a check.'
I didn't say they 'must' do a check. They have a right to insist upon it before digging, and a right to refuse to dig no matter what. They have a right to challenge authority (so-called 'authority' in this instance).
'Ultimately there a person with authority in the company/organisation must authorise such activity. Usually this person will be a Manager/supervisor/foreman.'
So what?
'You obviously haven't worked in a really structured enviroment for a long time hey G??'
I've worked in NORMAL structured environments - real corporations - for many years, and I am very successful. Your use of the word 'really' is, I have to say, creepy.

Would you do anything M told you to do?

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:03:28 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: How about addressing the issues?
Message:
The fact remains that M has ruled Elan Vital in an authoritarian manner, and in that context, 'How deep?' smacks of blind obedience. This is all just a diversion.

Would you or would you not do anything M told you to do? You still have not answered the question, nor the issues I've raised. Like what happened at DECCA, premies were heavily exposed to carcinogenic chemicals, and have since developed cancer. So much for being protected by M's 'grace'. All for one of his stupid ideas. Like M telling the premie to run a red light. I'll add more, I was told by an 'initiator' to rush him to the airport, I blindly obeyed and drove recklessly. At DECCA, large amounts of toxic chemicals were illegally dumped in a body of water.

'OH&S requirements are EXACTLY the way I have described them'

You did not describe them, see the web site I referred to, it doesn't say 'just look at the plans and drawings'. quite the opposite.

'The simple fact is you dont really know of people's wage structures.'

I'm making an informed estimate based on what I know about Elan Vital. It's reasonable to think these people could be making more elsewhere. But let's suppose, only for sake of argument, they were raking in the dough, like M. So what? A HUGE wage makes not a slave. Nothing makes a slave. People have a right to question authority and refuse orders. In the 'digging' scenario it would be appropriate, given the manager FAILED to inform them about the depth of the cables. Again, they shouldn't have to ask about cable depth (which isn't what M meant by 'How deep?' anyway). What is M doing, he's restricting what questions pwikies are allowed to ask. That's totalitarian. Pwikies should be questioning the very existance of Amaroo, the whole cult compound idea is stupid. It looks now like the place (btw, owned by Prempal Rawat via 'Jeeep Nominees') will fold. It was yet another of Rawat's stupid ideas.

'You have no idea of what was happening at the time John's homily.'

First, I don't agree it was a homily, and he wrote his post after, not at the time of - the incident. and yes I do, John wrote about it, and pwikies confirmed that M said this stuff, albeit the desperate spin.

'And frankly Mr/Ms Anonymouse(I've been waiting for that!)'

Is CatWeasel your name? It should be. I haven't given my name because I don't want to be attacked, especially now given the CAC attack etc.

'if you are employed by a major corporation ,(K-Mart? JCPenney?Wal-mart?), the economy over there looks to be booming.'

I am and I'm not going to tell you the name of my employer. There's no correlation to speak of between my employment and the economy, I'm not that significant. Your attempt at an ad hominem attack is pathetic. My employment has nothing to do with this debate.

'Dont just rush off and do things. Check and check accurately.'

That was not M's point at all, if it was he would have spelled it out and encouraged lots of questions, not just one question 'How deep?' That's not checking accurately. Are you saying this is simply a matter of his complete ineptitude at communicating? Is that your defense for him? Given his history of not being concerned for premies' safety, I don't buy it.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:23:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Oh G, give it up -- Cat's a coward
Message:
No sense of fair play. No concession of points duly won. Nothing. Incredible patience on your part, though. Wow.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 15:55:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Give Cat a little room, G
Message:
Some of us are working on our paradigms, G. Yours seems to be a bit rusty too, if you don't mind my saying so. I get the distinct impression that you actually think that, well, that you're right and Cat's wrong. I'm sorry if that's not accurate and I don't mean to offend you but, yes, you actually do seem to think that sometimes. So how do you think that makes Cat feel? If you continue to attack him like this, he'll never want to email you. Can't you see that?
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:06:37 (EST)
From: Chairman Maoraji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, Jim, Jim...
Message:
I must say that I so glad to see that you've been rehabilitated and that you now possess the correct paradigm. See, it's important that we change not only our underwear daily, but our tundra-like paradigms occasionally. Didn't hurt to change that antediluvian paradigm you were lugging around like a stinky blanky, did it? Re-education ain't all bad. In fact, it was quite profitable for me and the missus.

Perhaps, along with the change in your paradign, a change in careers would be best for you. Perhaps a facilitator of paradigm shifts, so in one fell swoop you change from shifty to shifter. God, I am so clever and, gosh darn it, I love myself!!!

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:03:40 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh gosh, I forgot
Message:
It's all relative, to each his own, be open minded, the internal affairs of another country, and all that. How could I forget these absolute truths? And heaven forbid that I be deprived of his emails.
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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 16:34:52 (EST)
From: Clyve
Email: None
To: G
Subject: You're sooo wrong, G
Message:
See, there is no absolute truth. Everyone has their own experience of the truth. It really is all relative. Us premies would get along so much better with you exes if only you saw that.

PatC:)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:25 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: What a fool believes- he sees'
Message:
Hi CW,

Yes - you got it in one! I certainly took it the other way. That makes sense why everyone didn't leave immediately. Gnash, gnash with a tinge of red. Then again that's me - as you celarly saw many years ago.

Bugger about the politics round here. I noticed with some humour that 'our boys' (SAS)only departed yesterday for a place a bit closer to Afganistan. Kuwait, I believe. During the election it seemed that ole' Johnny had personally sent them off to the heart of the conflagration. All the time they were still here. Nive bit of PR.

Anyway nice to see you are still around - I thought you had spat the dummy and weren't going to post again. There must be too much entertainment around here you. At least during the slow moments.

Cheers

Peter

ps Still haven't worked you out - but then again I can't remember David Roupell or John MacGregor either. Know the names but faces have well and truly flown. P

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:14 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Extremely poor communication
Message:
Hey Cat -
I do get your point about the buried cable example, but the point was obviously VERY poorly communicated - if it was communicated at all. I think even you would agree that John is a very intelligent person, and if he didn't get it, then likely other people didn't get it either.

Frankly, if anyone told me to dig a hole over a buried cable, and didn't mention how deep the cable was buried, or even that they KNEW there was a cable there, I would certainly challenge them - and I'd be right. There are so many accidents in the construction trade because of bad assumptions, miscommunications, and stupidity that one has to look out for oneself (I'm pretty sensitive to this because my brother almost died from doing something someone else said was "safe".)

TC,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:58:45 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: But what about the cable example?
Message:
Cat,

If you knew there was a buried cable and were told to dig there, you would be irresponsible if you didn't speak up, and someone who told you not to is even more irresponsible.

This is very simple. Why do you argue against it?

John.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 23:14:15 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: But what about the cable example?
Message:
I think you need to read this thread John. There is a much simpler way of looking at the statement.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:23:46 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Right that's it
Message:
You're too smart for me, Catweasel.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Contradictory accounts
Message:
Hi Peter -
Good to hear from you.

I agree that the 'buried cable' and the 'shoes, socks, pants' story are contradictory - and puzzling. My very opinionated - and not fully informed - take on this is that the facilitators who were running at least some of the trainings (including Maharaji), were using psychological techniques which they didn't fully understand - or were not able to communicate very well at all. It is almost like they used a cookbook for corporate training procedures, but didn't read through to the purpose for each exercise - or maybe didn't "get it" themselves until later on in the trainings. Who knows?

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:01:59 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Contradictory accounts
Message:
Thanks Katie,

Yeah, well, probably just as well too. The forces thay are playing with can be very difficult to deal with. People can get well and truly fucked up. This type of work when done in an unethical manner can really do things to people. The Taliban training schools are a good indication of this. The training schools in Kampuchea during the 'killing fields' slaughter - post Vietnam - war is another. These examples would be the 'out there' extreme. The human forces being manipulated are the same though.

Half my work in organisations is overcoming some dopey or terrible things other facilitators have done in people's pasts. Some people think it is OK to con and trick people in this way. Forum and EST and heaps of others have been doing this (conning) and making significant $$$ for years.

The odd thing is that all the 'tricks' work just as well when a person is fully informed about what is taking place, why and what the 'trick' actually is. The added advantage is that doing it in this 'out' way means people can really learn about what makes them tick. For example - in a group training situation - invite someone to be a volunteer - have them stay in the room. Then tell everyone in the room something like this 'I would like to show you how inferences can be made automatically. I will do this by telling you that this volunteer is a person who always tells lies and then having you notice what effect this has on you. OK. Ready. This peron always tells lies. They never tell the truth. They are tricky and devious - never trust them.' The facilitator then asks the volunteer a range of questions - straight foward ones. Low and behold - most people in the room notice that they can't help feeling that this person is a lying scum-dog. Then the opposite can be done by introducing a person as always honest, always truthful and full of integrity. Low and behold - everyone feels a sense of trust towards this other person.

Now the interesting thing is that everyone was present throughout the whole show. This is important because it shows so very clearly how we can be influenced to follow other's inferences. There a heaps of other ways of illustrating this type of thing. Its works well in the above example in organisations because the participants are very experienced in giving their opinions of other people as though these opinions have no effect. Imagine for yourself if you were about to meet someone new and a colleague told you they were fantastic - or hideous. What a difference to your warm-up to meeting this person.

Cheers for now
Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:25:02 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Excellent posts Peter
Message:
Gee, where have you been? It's nice to read such an informative post on the topic.

Riddle me this, Peter?

What effect do you think it has for premies who come here and read the stuff about BigHead as liar, deceiver, murderer, two-bit adulter, abuser, etc. and than go a program where the MC introducing the same guy (BigHead) is welcomed as the most incredibel, influential, beautiful person in the world?

Is this why the trolls are so duplitious? I mean they can say one thing in one post and the opposite in the next post in the same thread. Or do you think they're just being assholes?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:40:57 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Excellent posts Peter
Message:
Hi Deborah,

Thanks.

Yeah I've been flat out work wise. I am usually reluctant to post if I wont be around to respond. Well to be honest - I am also keen to see the responses if any - perhaps even crave responses - so I kind of save things up a bit - and then the ideas change and progress anyway or I notice a similar response to me. For instance I am away all next week - computer free zone as well. Mostly I am around a computer for a few hours here or there.....

As for your question - I think what you are wondering about is at the heart of what EPO can do. It holds up dis-confirming evidence to premies ideas about MJ. Some of the stuff I read on 'Transformational Learning' by Jack Mezirow suggests that learning only begins when the real world is shown to be different from my ideas of the world. And I think this is what happens with this forum adn EPO.

I get surprised my myself at how on reading some of the newer stuff here I still notice the underlying spiritual beliefs that linger. Now I don't mean to argue spiritual beliefs - but nearly all my spiritual beliefs came post MJ. Then MJ went out of my life but it has taken a lot longer for those developed spiritual beliefs to fall away. And when they fall away I notice a twinge of regret or sadness. I imagine that premies are not keen to take on a range of feeling - easier to deny the evidence.

For instance in reading about some brain functioning there is a part of our brain that generates a sense of boundary around ourselves. This part of the brain gives us a sense of ourselves as individual, as having one identity, of being limited and time bound and 'within our own skin'. Now this is interesting because there are many spiritual things/gurus that try to have us feel unlimited, boundaryless - one with the universe. All it requires is for this area of our brain to be effected - or as Jim says - 'brain chemistry'. It is interesting to consider why we evolved to have this part of our brain. It is also very interesting to consider why there is so much therapy around that is simply trying to have individulas get a real sense of their own limits and boundaries - rather than the reverse.

So I think what you are posing is in the realm of the 'drip' process.

Also your final point. Well I worked with a person recently in a group and she had a very strong image of herself as a forthright straight shooter, says it like it is, no nonsense person etc etc. Now on the one had this was very true. But on the other hand she became very aware that there were many opinions she didn't share, many ideas she didn't put forward, there were many strong feeling responses she had that she didn't bring forward. In the context of the learning program she was trying to develop a degree of transparency so that people would not misunderstand her. The dilemma for her was that she realised her self-rhetoric didn't match her actions. And this was quite difficult for her and she was great in that she did put this dilemma on the table. So I think this dilemma is regularly created here for premies and ex-premies alike. Do my values-in-action match my expressed values.

Sometimes they are just being arseholes as well. And we make good targets for them.

Cheers

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia and around a computer for 10 minutes

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:17:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory?
Message:
ALL that workshop stuff seems so pointless. AS IF people change in any meaningful way through any of it. The only thing that changes, if anything, is their jargon and the way they might present themselves for a short period and, even then, only when they think about it and they think someone's watching. I truly believe this whole consulting industry is empty and worthless -- if not worse.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:08:18 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: consulting industry is empty
Message:
Which is precisely why it appeals to Rev Rawat. It is mind-games given a veneer of respectability because corporations have used it.

Of course in the only one I ever went through, it became obvious to me almost immediately that the stated supposed purpose (''team work'') really was simply a distraction. It was meant to give us the ''feeling'' that we were participating democratically but in actual fact eroded the informal democracy which already existed in the work force.

The ''team work'' trainings were actually designed to consolidate top down management.

It's a mindfuck and that's your answer too, Deb. Like servant like massa. They're all playing games. It's all you know how to do after receiving the fifth technique.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:13:48 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory?
Message:
Dear Jim

I largely agree.

Most research seems to indicate that the training processes don't work or at best the data is contradictory. So why does it persist? My simple response is that it purports to provide answers and people (just like premies) crave answers. And there are endless streams of consultants who will promise answers - some of the worlds largest firms - Andersons etc. As I write this I am aware for instance of a major government report showing that most IT systems don't live up to their promises (most being 95%). Same thing - IT is sold as the answer - and this IT solution will solve all your problems - etc. This meditation is the answer and will solve all your spiritual problems etc. Without sale reps many businesses would not exist.

The idea of changing someone at a workshop is very simplistic. The idea of a person changing themselves is also over simplistic. Learning is one thing - changing is another.

As for it being superficial and transitory - we would have to be more specific to agree. I would say that the example I gave before could well fall into that category. However it is important to note in organisations how quickly opinions are formed and how they can become set in concrete - impervious to contradictory data. Most internal organisational politics is around unresolved conflict - much of which is created by dodgy inferences come to on very little unverified data.

As a consultant I can't quite come at agreeing that my work is empty and worthless or worse. But I do appreciate that the idea has merit. And I am keen to see if my work has any real effect. I work hard to try and separate myself from the common ruck of consultants and to a large degree have succeeded. Of course I then worry whether I am as up my bum as I was when following MJ. Ahhh! I am only much good at a few things in the consulting game and so far have been able to generate a living from these arenas. My major success is in assisting groups of functioning individuals in organisations to work collaboratively together to assist each other and to provoke ongoing learning with each other. These groups keep on going long after I have had anything to do with them. So I am able to develop independence rather than dependence - even though from a money making point of view dependence really works for consultants. It just doesn't work for people and groups to be dependent. Every time people try to develop independence from MJ as a group he canes them good. I find this very sad.

Currently we (my partner/wife and I)run programs with significant built-in evaluation processes. Don't ask me how we managed this but we did. It is unique in our experience of this industry. However it gives me/us some confidence in knowing what it is I/we are good at and what is fantasy.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

ps I love your doggedness. It really produces some outstanding results. Not love/comfort/ease or anything easy but it provokes and demands a real level of response which I appreaciate. So I appreciate your ability and determindness to do it in the face of enormous opposition. I know I wouldn't/couldn't do it if you stopped. P

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:47:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Pete, what can I say?
Message:
Pete,

Thank you for what appears to be a very candid and unflinching response. I can just imagine that many in your shoes would not have indulged me with such a thorough answer and I thank you for it. So what next? You've already conceded that these workshops just may be worthless, I suspect but don't know that they are. What now?

Peter, the reality is that even if people don't get any of the lasting benefits they hope to get from such trainings, corporations are going to continue to buy them. I'm guessing that if the 'trainers' are conscientious and decent that they won't be doing any harm, at least. In which case, if that's how people want to spend their money, so be it. I guess what I'm saying is that if you're doing this work and trying to avoid screwing with peoples' minds, as you say, then I doubt you're really hurting anyone and are, at least, providing a little entertainment, if nothing else. So even if trainings are bunk you're at least providing some good service.

See, the more I say the worse it sounds. I don't want to patronize you but I'm most certainly dismissive of your chosen profession. Sory, bud. What can I say? Prove me wrong, if you like. I'm all ears. Otherwise, don't worry, it could be worse. You could be a criminal defence lawyer. :)

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:33:11 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How to ever do 'good' is the question
Message:
Yeah!

Being somewhat on the inside, and having employed consultants from within an organisation in my last salaried job - it is even worse than you imagine. Its not that training is flawed - it is that the outcomes are enormously overstated and are ridiculous. Some of the larger firms have whole sections geared to selling their services. So there's little me doing up a tender on Sunday night untill late, with no back up, requiring a colleague in another city to download it from email so it can be printed and in by the due time. Then there is someone from Coopers/Lybrand paid to simply develop tender responses and to promise whatever it takes to get the work. Colour printers, professional layout people and professional artwork people.

Its a bit like what MJ and other purveyors of spiritual stuff do. They promise everything. I remember seeing a brochure for a weekend yoga workshop. It had a list of the outcomes. It started out pretty well. A bit like this:
1. Stress reduction
2. Better pusture
3. Improved self esteem
etc
etc
11. Ability to fly
12. Ability to be anywhere at will
13. Omniscience

So some of these consultants are asked to promise ludicrous outcomes. And they do. I am often asked to as well. If I can't talk them into something reasonable then I decline the work. Otherwise it is a con job. And I've done my conning - mostly when I was with MJ.

It would be like making promises to premies if they read the EPO site. Its really up to them. And when do we know when we've done good? As a premies doing good was well defined. The good I do now is very different from that good. I really hope that in 10 years I look back with pride at the 'good' work I do now. I'm pretty sure I will.

As for being a criminal defense laywer - well - enough said - I watch 'Law and Order' and I was raised on 'Perry Mason' so I know how it really really works ;)

Cheers for now

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Aust - about to head out for a while

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:06:52 (EST)
From: eDrek and Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: When two or more are gathered...
Message:
(eDrek) Ah, yes, another year to give thanks that I am free from Maharaji's poisonous cesspool of mind control where HE wants me to surrender more and more of myself and my money to HIM. No matter how many of me there are, I will not succumb. I have broken free. I no longer live in fear that I am not doing enough to please my sick and twisted Lord of Lords.

CAC and it's apprentices still attack and defame me, but I will not back down and shut the hell up. Maharaji sucks and he sucked away enough of my life to last me 10,000 lifetimes - what a fucking leech!

Ok, insert guitar solo here and followed by solo from Marianne.

Alright, Marianne got busy with carving the turkey and she has told me that I can speak for her. Here it goes:

Hmmm, ah, er, uh, well, gee...

Let's talk offline about this.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:23:31 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: eDrek and Marianne
Subject: Re: When two or more are gathered...
Message:
I give deep thanks on this day of gratitude, that I no longer worship that turkey. overstuffed, at that.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:27:29 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too
Message:
Hope you're having a nice day!
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:19:40 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: eDrek and Marianne
Subject: Happy Thanksgiving eDrek & Marianne
Message:
You said Marianne is carving the turkey.

I didn't know Maha was there? ;)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:15:03 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: eDrek and Marianne
Subject: there are more
Message:
Thanks for the strength and support, both of you. Marianne I had no idea you were such a writer - just kidding I know how that eDrek can be. Am glad you are together and having a good day.
CAC sucks lizard boogers.
Me too, am off to eat. but not lizard boogers!!!!
My husband cooked dinner. He is spoiling me but don't tell him.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:13:40 (EST)
From: ET
Email: prothro@compuserve.com
To: All
Subject: 'Realizing' Knowledge
Message:
I never really understood what 'realizing' Knowledge meant. Was it supposed to be equivalent to 'enlightenment'? Or did it mean finally seeing light as bright as a billion suns?

Or was it just an unattainable goal to keep us striving?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:03:57 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: 'Realizing' Knowledge
Message:
You 'Realise Knowledge' when you see it for what it is. Patterns, falling wax, snot, breathing and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of faith.

It's not until you quit, that you realise what it really is.

Anth the realised parsnip

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:00:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: This was my first 'drip'
Message:
When I first got seduced into the cult in '72/'73, 'realizing Knowledge' was a very specific goal. Indeed, it was the goal. What did it mean? It meant crossing over the barrier of ego and illusion and gaining true, no-shit, capital 'e' enlightenment. Only M, his Holy Family, the mahatmas and MAYBE -- can't be sure -- one or two very special premies had ever made it. All of us were trying.

A couple of years later, though, M just stopped talking about it. Then we all 'spaced out' in the workshop phase in late '75 and '76. Then, when M yanked our chains and pulled us back into the devotional barnyard, in the latter part of '76 after the Essen, Germany conference for national co-ordinators, we started grovelling in abject humiliation, ashamed, as we were, for having demonstrated how worldly we truly were.

No one ever talked about realizing K again. It was all about prayer and devotion. Like I say, even then I couldn't understand that. Now I do: it was all nothing.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:55:16 (EST)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Realize in in Room
Message:
I remember someone in satsang in 1973 saying you should lock yourself in a room to 'realize' Knowledge. I thought if you 'realized' it, then you would know what all the excitement was about.

What a bust -- just like the Astrodome.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:18:59 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: U never experienced grace states on acid?
Message:
??
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:28:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: U never experienced grace states on acid?
Message:
Ham,

I experienced all sorts of things but that wasn't 'realizing Knowledge'. I mean, to me now it's all bullshit. I had many experiences, in and out of the cult, after dark-roasting my mind on meditation or other fires, that I thought were clear glimpses of the 'realized state'. Now, as you know, I think they weren't that at all, just brain chemistry, pure and simple.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:20:27 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Couldn't agree more Jim..hi/bye.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:36:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Ditto [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:58 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: For myself it was VERY real
Message:
I've been conscious of an altered state, filled with grace, which is absolutely gorgeous to experience, and where so much more made sense, since I first took acid.

Constantly being aware of that 'whatever' I took to be enlightenment. Later on even that seemed another concept.

Isn't it about the isness of the moment, and grokking on it to your maximum ability or whatever you want to call it, if it's about anything?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:12:25 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: What does 'Enlightenment' Mean?
Message:
I was curious to look up enlightenment: Dictionary.com

enlightenment n.
1. a.The act or a means of enlightening.
b.The state of being enlightened.
2.Enlightenment: A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms.
3.Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana.

I should have looked it up before I joined the cult.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 20:49:54 (EST)
From: The Use Of Reason :
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines
Message:
Sounds like the ex-premie forum
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:21:58 (EST)
From: 'Grok' is such
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: a lovely word,
Message:
thank you Robert Heinlein, otherwise a hopeless fascist
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:27:25 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: 'Grok' is such
Subject: Grok
Message:
If you can grok what I'm saying: sometimes it's the only word to be used when trying to get someone to grok what I'm saying...:)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:56:34 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Call me naive but
Message:
whatever happened to the zen parts of his speeches about knowledge, and whatever happened to that enlightenment thing of going beyond the master to come back to the fullness of the moment in it's isness, which even he used to hint at occasionally?

Now it seems like the longer you have k the more you need him to remind you, scary.
Whatever happened to the concept of of k that the more you experienced it, the more you reminded yourself, because of the gorgeousness of your experience.

I've never experienced a gorgeousness that made me forget the moment and need increased remindings.
Especially when you consider that each of us 'tuned into' ther magical pull by recognizing it ourselves.

Sod dependency on the master, if you see tyhe buddha on the road, kill him.

And for any idjut premies, that's a metaphorical murder, not a fakiranand one.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:58:49 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: hamzen
Subject: Hey Hammy - sounds, etc.. (ot)
Message:
Me and Moley have just put one of our songs online - a v. rough demo - tinny home-recording, and not at all drun'n'bass, but thought your might like a listen anyway, if your machine can manage the download..

Just learning some sound engineering technology, so better things to come soon, I hope.
Nige the Moley enthusiast.

[oops - screwed up the link - wait a minute...]

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:11:41 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ok - here's the link..
Message:

[ Stonewalling.. ]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:18:24 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: OKAY, you're naive ;)
Message:
Hi Ham,

hatever happened to the zen parts of his speeches about knowledge, and whatever happened to that enlightenment thing of going beyond the master to come back to the fullness of the moment in it's isness, which even he used to hint at occasionally?

I wonder the same thing myself, all the time. This was never part of my satsang, never. Nor anyone I ever knew or heard speak. I left in late '80's (although not intentionally forever) because I thought it was time for me to cut my apron strings. I had spent 8 yrs as a non-stop devotee and realized it was contrary to individual growth of a person with the gift of knowledge. I would have barfed right on the spot if a premie would talked the way the trolls do. Seriously.

That crap coming out of their mouth iscompletely contrary to the message of satsang. NO. That's pathetic co-dependency 101.

I met a lot of bongos who had richer more enlightened things to say. As a matter of fact, they were walking the walk.

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 00:58:47 (EST)
From: a d
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: hamzen naive ;) - you - plain scary
Message:
attack attack attack attack

you just can't help yourself can you?

you are one sick little pup

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Date: Sat, Nov 24, 2001 at 05:10:35 (EST)
From: Industrial strength Troll alert
Email: None
To: a d
Subject: hamzen naive ;) - you - plain scary [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:10:09 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Call me naive but
Message:
Whatever you are you make some great music. Thanks for the last I just listened to them on the road to Mexico and back today.
Autumn Leaves, nice.

I do need reminders, my nature prefers the morbid and all but the rminders are all over and it's not a 'secret' that has to be revealed by some special teacher.

Which is on topic in a sense. Music being a powerful catalyst for feel good feelings and who needs some guy sitting in an expensive business chair going on about it?
I'll email one of these days, I've been off on my email lately, too many other computing things yakking at me. I wanna dance ! :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:23:39 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Your timings excellent
Message:
there some new stuff coming out at the mo that is wicked, as in seriously wicked.
Biggest buzz, like electric, I've had for about three or four years.
Got a tape of it to send you but can't find your address.
I KNOW you'll love it, bit more uptempo, a lot more bootilicious, jus wicked.

And thanks for the big up, always good to know someone gets turned on by that stuff.
Re autumn leaves, yeah gorgeous, that period for that kind of sweet vibe was special for me, and showed me everything I always wanted the premie community and festivals to be, but never were, resonant, deep, gorgeous and for real.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:49 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: will email postal address
Message:
You are a sweetie. Thanks for being around.
L,
S
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:38:20 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@curriedtofurkey.org/y
To: All
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Thanks for everybody who has ever contributed constructively at the forums and epo.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:36:39 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Ditto and Thank You
Message:
for all of your asute insights and contributions, your presence here has helped me immensely in handling my issues surrounding the cult and M and my entrapment to them.

Hope you had a happy day Such

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