Skippy -:- anniversary -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:50:15 (EST)

Salam -:- That did it. No more computers for me -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 23:45:22 (EST)

__ Byline -:- Edited Excerpt, Maharaji in Curacao September 2001 [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:17:05 (EST)

__ B -:- Re: That did it. No more computers for me -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:58:50 (EST)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: That did it. No more computers for me -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:03:51 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- Hmmm -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:26:22 (EST)

__ __ Zelda -:- email address is a status symbol????? -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:51:37 (EST)

Jim -:- M Accomplishes Goals, Tells Friends -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:53:30 (EST)

__ Pullaver -:- Deja Vu -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:02:28 (EST)

__ Barry -:- Hey Jim! -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:08:07 (EST)

__ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Of COURSE it was Nice... -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:54:05 (EST)

Barry -:- Whats a son of a bitch? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:36:50 (EST)

__ Jim -:- That is SO ot and SOOO funny! [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:39:55 (EST)

__ __ Barry -:- had to do it. (ot) -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:51:42 (EST)

Salam -:- Gerry -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:32:34 (EST)

JHB -:- New Journey and White Pages Entries -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:23:45 (EST)

Joe -:- It-Ain't-So has become a SEX site -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:00:43 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- They probably can't complain -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:06:37 (EST)

Kelly -:- First anniversary posting -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:42:54 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Thank You Kelly -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:05:51 (EST)

__ Mercedes -:- Re: First anniversary posting -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:18:52 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Re: First anniversary posting -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:10:27 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: First anniversary posting -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:31:10 (EST)

__ Marianne -:- Kelly! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:41:43 (EST)

__ __ Kelly -:- Marianne! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:40:45 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Happy Anniversary to you Kelly -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:32:43 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Big hug Kelly -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:12:02 (EST)

__ Joe -:- All the Best Kelly -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:09:30 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Happy Anniversary... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:08:03 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- I remember well the dates -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:32:45 (EST)

__ Gail -:- Re: First anniversary posting -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:56:45 (EST)

JHB -:- EV already being dismantled -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:47:59 (EST)

__ Joe -:- It's (as usual) About MONEY -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:19:57 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- NONE of that money stays in the community -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:20:28 (EST)

__ __ Kelly -:- Re: It's (as usual) About MONEY -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:27:29 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- He he he, yes, this is, ahem, rich(?) -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:48:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Jim!..... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:54:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- *******If you want a laugh****** -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:47:27 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Talk about desperate!!! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:31:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Treetalk -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:45:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Wrong trees -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:59:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Agreed, John -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:43:27 (EST)

__ Francesca :) -:- Whoa John! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:06:27 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Re: Get your 'quotes' right -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:04:15 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- There's no ''Speaker's'' Fee.. But Expenses... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:57:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- FA ON DUTY....please... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:59:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: FA ON DUTY....please... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:07:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- TROLL altert? I wonder too. [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:05:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ The Exterminator -:- TROLL -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:14:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Troll -:- IP blocked? Sure!! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:49:30 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, I tried but fanatics like you... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:58:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Get your facts straight Bumface -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:12:24 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Explain it then -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:31:38 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- So? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:30:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ New Age Redneck -:- Haven't you heard? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:37:05 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Maybe so, but..... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:11:59 (EST)

salsa -:- family of LIARS -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:19:25 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Family of Revisionists too -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 16:13:27 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Family of Revisionists too -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:54:44 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- These Crowns of Creation, these Avatars -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:56:22 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Changing Body Images -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:24:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- LOL! Flatulence... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:21:33 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Sat Pal: Question for PAMS -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:50:34 (EST)

Manav Dharam -:- Hans Jayanti a huge success -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:13:19 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Hans Jayanti a huge success -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:31:39 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Notice Bohle Ji in the Pictures -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:39:27 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Notice Bohle Ji in the Pictures -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 13:41:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Miserable and Bored -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:34:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Notice Bohle Ji in the Pictures -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:57:42 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 13:29:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 14:31:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ New Age Redneck -:- Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:40:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Is Bohle wearing PEARLS? (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:27:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:22:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ New Age Redneck -:- Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:32:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Suzanne -:- Is that an advert for Weight Watchers? (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 14:30:32 (EST)

__ Salam -:- Re: Hans Jayanti a huge success -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:29:41 (EST)

Gerry -:- Apology to David Roupell -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 10:40:08 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Blame and shame for David Roupell -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:43:18 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- But Jim, what about Roupell's heart? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:57:01 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- My New Age affirmation -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:28:18 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Oh and Dave, Forum Stats... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:42:32 (EST)

__ __ New Age Redneck -:- Re: Oh and Dave, Forum Stats... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:59:34 (EST)

Scott T. -:- eerily familiar: PABL not PAM -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:24:09 (EST)

TED Farkel -:- New Years bash at theTrac Center... -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 16:59:44 (EST)

Gaucho -:- posted by gerry by request -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:18:19 (EST)

Gerry -:- Defamation, Intimidation, and Pwk Trolls -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:03:05 (EST)

__ CW -:- Re: Defamation, Intimidation, and Pwk Trolls -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:30:32 (EST)

__ bill -:- Re professionals?-hire me -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:57:34 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Face it -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 23:48:29 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Re: Defamation, Intimidation, and Pwk Trolls -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:09:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- CW can disprove involvement with CAC -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 19:35:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- How doyou lynch an anonymous ghost? [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 22:39:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Scaredy Cat frightened? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:21:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ give it to him -:- juajuajuahahahhahaa NT -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 09:53:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Cat, this is nonsense! -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 17:56:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- That's not what you said! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:27:44 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- The Enigmatic Cat -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:43:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- CW Straight Up? hummmm -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:04:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Asst FA -:- Request to above poster, WCF -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:48:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nickelodeon -:- Request denied. -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:17:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Multiple Alias Troll.... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:37:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Cat lies like a cheap rug! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 08:54:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Gerry, this is an ex-premie forum -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:56:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- correct -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:26:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- salsa, -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:25:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ no -:- Re: salsa, -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:28:29 (EST)

John Macgregor -:- Neurotheology -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 02:21:29 (EST)

__ Pullaver -:- Re: Neurotheology -:- Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:14:28 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Thanks, John.. -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:36:15 (EST)

__ cq -:- Re: Neurotheology - the original link -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:48:35 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Neurotheology -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:01:05 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Typically thoughtless post, Dog -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:49:35 (EST)

__ __ Nigel -:- Figuring things out... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 16:32:35 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Figuring things out... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:12:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Dr. Ruth -:- Re: Figuring things out... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 23:45:31 (EST)

__ __ __ New Age Redneck -:- Well said, as usual Nigel (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:44:06 (EST)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thnaks Nig, when you figure it all out let me know [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 16:38:06 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- It's fun to figure things out... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:21:07 (EST)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: It's fun to figure things out... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:01:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***DOG'S GIVING SATSANG*** -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:55:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: ***DOG'S GIVING SATSANG*** -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:07:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't forget 'A Stitch in Time' -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:29:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I once was lost, but now I'm found! -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:41:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What about my question? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 23:08:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ New Age Redneck -:- Re: It's fun to figure things out... -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:19:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- My answer Mr. Redneck -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:45:06 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Nigel's post on 'divine' experiences? -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:43:56 (EST)

__ __ PatC - here it is -:- I made a copy - it was so good -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:53:18 (EST)

__ __ __ New Age Redneck -:- Re: I made a copy - it was so good -:- Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:29:23 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Thanks for this, John -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:55:32 (EST)

__ bill -:- Re: Neurotheology -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:30:44 (EST)

__ berni -:- Re: Neurotheology - are you really real? -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:34:14 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- Re: Neurotheology -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 07:16:07 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: Neurotheology - William James -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:53:39 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Sorry, one more try -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:01:40 (EST)

__ __ salsa -:- bad link Pat -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 07:26:14 (EST)

__ __ Tim G -:- Stick to the point. nt -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:00:50 (EST)

__ __ __ Tim G -:- I'm talking to CW -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:09:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- dat ol' weasy be gwain [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:14:38 (EST)

Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:50:15 (EST) From: Skippy Email: None To: All Subject: anniversary Message:

It is approximately a year since I first realised the next step to take was to get free from M an K. It has been a fabulous year. I feel as if life has finally begun. As if it is safe to grow up and to get in there and compete with the people I had previously thought were benighted and needing of my nurture. Never mind they were obviously enjoying life more than me. I remember when I first looked into K I told myself that if I ever found a higher truth I would have to go with that. This had been partly what gave me courage to defy Catholic teachings and follow M in the first place. What a revelation to find the higher truth was I had submitted to brain washing and been duped. I too feel embarassed. Still, we were part of the mentality of a naive era and we made our choices then as now. Thank god for the internet and the patience and courage of those who went public with the facts. Thanks and many thanks guys. When I first looked into the forum I thought you were nuts! What a jolt it was to realise I was the nut.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 23:45:22 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: That did it. No more computers for me Message:

We all use computers to save time, but one thing a computer does not do is save time. Calling someone up and talking to them is a lot better than e-mail because e-mail is actually very time consuming. One, you have to type it up, and, two, you have to read what you have typed, which will just be duplicated on the other side - because that's what the other person has to do too. On the phone, you can do this simultaneously. That's much better technology. And not only that, you can vary your words. If you had to say, 'I mean no!' you don't have to underline it for emphasis, you just say, 'I mean no.' It's instant. There will be a time when you won't be able to use your computer any more. But we have all jumped on the bandwagon. We are all cool, because we have this status symbol, an e-mail address. Now, for me, when I see somebody has an e-mail address, I know they have time on their hands. And there will be a time - this is a new analogy, this is definitely a 21st Century analogy - when you won't be able to use your computer any more. Saints have said, 'A time will come when you won't be able to do this, you won't be able to do that,' but they never talked about computers. So here's a new one: you won't be able to use your computer. Your finger will be too weak to turn it on. And you will not really know if it has turned on or not because you won't be able to hear the 'boink' of turning it on. Abouve from the gibbrish, is he implying that he is a saint. How does that work? you know, becoming a saint. Can I apply please? [ elan news letter ]

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:17:05 (EST) From: Byline Email: None To: Salam Subject: Edited Excerpt, Maharaji in Curacao September 2001 [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:58:50 (EST) From: B Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: That did it. No more computers for me Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:03:51 (EST) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: B Subject: Re: That did it. No more computers for me Message:

The amazing thing is in the 1800's this great technology was invented to send messages down a wire to far away places (telegraph). Email is not a 'new' technology, just the method and place of delivery, and the convenience have changed - I agree phones can be a better method or more exact to some extent but nothing beats face to face, thats whn you can really tell the speaker is jerking your chain.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:26:22 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Salam Subject: Hmmm Message:

If a person is so weak they can't turn a computer on and too deaf to hear it clunk, they're going to be too weak and deaf to make a phone call too. Duh... Anyway, are you implying that Maharaji said all of that? I don't believe you. Nobody would come out with clap trap like that. You made it up, didn't you.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:51:37 (EST) From: Zelda Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: email address is a status symbol????? Message:

ok . The speaker couldnt have said that. Impossible Even he has more brains . Only a pretentious fool would say such a stupid thing. unless he is so out of touch with people that he thinks they think he thinks it is so..... which is frightening

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:53:30 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: M Accomplishes Goals, Tells Friends Message:

This from the Onion, I mean, ELK: San Francisco Event 25 November 2001 In the midsummer of 2000 my wife Cathy and I came up with the idea of hosting an Indian Dinner at our house to support the effort to invite Maharaji to speak at an event in the Bay Area. With the help of some friends we served dinner to over 30 people on our deck overlooking the San Francisco Bay. The evening was enjoyed by all and proved to be very successful. Earlier this summer many people with Knowledge in Northern California came together to focus on propagation in the area. A resolution came out of that meeting to make preparations to invite Maharaji to the Bay Area. The project came to fruition on Friday 23 Nov 2001 when Maharaji attended an event in San Francisco in response to our invitation. The event was sponsored by the Bay Area community and everyone who attended received a personal invitation on the phone through local contacts. The whole feel of the event was much more informal and relaxed than we had previously been used to devoid of many of the organizational trappings so familiar to us over the years. Maharaji set the tone of the event early on in his talk by saying that he was thinking of not wearing a suit and tie when he attended these type of events, questioning the need to dress so formally , when what he was actually doing was ' coming to spend some time with his friends'. He went on to say that he had been waiting a long time to do these kind of more informal events and he was clearly excited that he was finally able to do them. Oh no! Now he's going to blame us for making him wear a tie all those years! It was the 'corporate types', I can hear it now. During his talk he referred to a conversation he recently had with his brother concerning Maharaji 's fulfilling of the mission given to him by his father Sri Maharaji 'To spread Knowledge to every land'. His brother pointed out that Maharaji had actually accomplished that goal and that now he could do what he (Maharaji) wanted to do! Raja Ji ...... LOL .... speechless ....LOL ...no, really, LOL! After talking for over an hour Maharaji then offered the audience the opportunity to speak to him. He said that there where many people who have had Knowledge for 20-30 years and never had the chance to speak to him personally and now was their chance. He made it clear from the outset that he didn't want questions about 'enlightenment etc.' He then spent the next hour listening and responding to comments from the audience of approximately 500 people. Many people who spoke expressed their deep appreciation for everything Maharaji had done for them in their lives and gratitude was pouring abundantly from the hearts of those who spoke. Some were clearly overwhelmed and could not find words to express their feelings, others tried to condense 20 or so years of gratitude into a few short sentences. Maharaji listened to all with great love and respect, responding with his usual eloquence and wit to the great diversity of speakers, with some gentle and loving, and with others playful and teasing. In closing he said that he hoped to hold more of these type of sessions so that those people who hadn't had the opportunity to interact with him on this occasion would be able to do so. 'Many' ....? Wasn't there a single person willing to talk honestly with his 'friend'? It felt very refreshing to be with Maharaji in a more intimate setting and Cathy and I felt really happy to have contributed in a small way (through our Indian Dinner) to the realization of a dream, Maharaji coming to see us in San Francisco. From: Barry Laplain, Marin County USA This month, Maharaji also attended events in Philadelphia, Phoenix and San Diego - all at the invitation of local people.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:02:28 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: Jim Subject: Deja Vu Message:

Maharaji set the tone of the event early on in his talk by saying that he was thinking of not wearing a suit and tie when he attended these type of events, questioning the need to dress so formally , when what he was actually doing was ' coming to spend some time with his friends'. He went on to say that he had been waiting a long time to do these kind of more informal events and he was clearly excited that he was finally able to do them. This is reminiscent of the time back in the early '80s when margie embarked on a major PR campaign of 'de-mystification', when he also held Q&A's in response to the ashram debacle and other travesties. That was an attempt to portray margie as 'one of us', fallible, a person we could even interact with socially, etc. Seems like EPO and Forum VII revelations requires another PR campaign designed to assuage any doubting Thomas(es). Here we have the folksy, low-key margie again, oh boy, no suit or tie needed now. Premies everywhere will take the cue and lose the Armani/fashion plate facade and actually, yikes, dress down . . . this is it, the missing piece in order for propogation to work in the west - be casual . . . but fear not, arti, fascist trainings, and never doubting the purity of the master are just around the corner love.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:08:07 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim! Message:

Maybe you could invite M to one of your friday night jamathons! You know, serve shots for thirty, or so. Tie optional of course. 'Hey guru boy! Jump on those drum pads there will ya? Barry won't get here till 12!'

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:54:05 (EST) From: Andrea Eriksonn Email: None To: Jim Subject: Of COURSE it was Nice... Message:

It's always nice, when you don't filter out the GOOD. You only need to filter out all the BAD, like all you BAD, nasty ex-students of The Teacher. That's what all the smart cards are for, to filter out the folks who are too ungrateful. And even some of the gratitude impaired were allowed to attend, once they showed photo I.D. and were properly screened, and every effort made been made to make them feel guilty enough to cough up the door fee ''donation''. If you all weren't so busy filtering out the good, you would see that He was just filtering out the ungrateful cheapskates, and the people who wanted to ask awkward, unpleasant questions, or talk about ''enlightenment'' or other such new age crap that has nothing to do with The Master. In fact, it opposes Him! Concepts like "Enlightenment" just complicates things and gets in the way of the important work He's trying to do! And YES, you ex-students DID force Him to wear ties, the same way you FORCED Him to be the Messiah, with all your Judao-Christian morality concepts, when all He wanted to do all along was be groovy and hang out with His generous friends with trust funds, and tell bathroom jokes, smoke weed and ''do'' blonde chicks, and remind us to breath and be happy, and take credit for it, NOT talk about ''enlightenment'' (He HATES that). When I think about how much YOU all have abused HIM, it just makes me want to cry! I personally feel grateful and privledged to pay large donations to get to know The Teacher's stage and screen persona more intimately (And by donations I don't mean the entry fee, I mean the money we were all hit up for at the commitee meetings beforehand, to make it all possible.) I'm so grateful to be able to use that money to hear The Teacher remind me to breath, and to suggest that He might even do so in the future, without even wearing His tie, ooohhh, it was SO intimate and personal! The kids didn't need all those christmas presents anyway, and besides, I know that MY Santa is counting whose naughty or nice! As a significant doner, I'm sure I'm on the NICE list now! I just hope more of you cheapskate-bum ex-students drop out! The less PAMS around, the better my chances are of getting to pay thousands to be invited on the Yacht. I'm even thinking of going blonde! Andrea Eriksonn, Who knows life is great, when you don't filter out the good, and you DO give lots of money to The Master who reminds you to breath and be grateful and never doubt his purity, and who is REALLY You-Know-Who, giving You-Know-What. ;) :) :P P.S. I forgot to mention, I'm also NORMAL and NOT in a CULT!

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:36:50 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: Whats a son of a bitch? Message:

This guy! ha ha ha ha [ http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/blam.html ]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:39:55 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Barry Subject: That is SO ot and SOOO funny! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:51:42 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: had to do it. (ot) Message:

Sorry for the subject interuption etc... I cracked a hose when I saw it too! How are ya Jim? Things are getting a might bit better here. The weather is hell though, 3 feet of snow so far and about 6 below. Mail ya soon. bar

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:32:34 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: Gerry Message:

What's the idea behind changing the forum name?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:23:45 (EST) From: JHB Email: jhb@ex-premie.org To: All Subject: New Journey and White Pages Entries Message:

Paul Richards from Devon in the UK has posted his short and sweet Journey, and White Pages entry. Other new White Pages entries are John Macgregor from Byron Bay, Australia; Jethro Cadbury from London, UK; and Susan Pszenitzki (nee Stein) from Connecticut, US. John. [ Paul Richards' Journey ]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:00:43 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: It-Ain't-So has become a SEX site Message:

How embarrassing. www.it-aint-so.org has now become a rather tasteful sex site. But let me warn you, all you gay guys and straight women will probably not be interested. I hope Pia's relatives can complain.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:06:37 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joe Subject: They probably can't complain Message:

Joe: If the domain was abandoned or sold, they probably can't complain, unless there was some contractual agreement regarding the use of the domain. But I agree, very sad. --f

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:42:54 (EST) From: Kelly Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk To: All Subject: First anniversary posting Message:

It is exactly one year since I first posted on the forum under the heading “Lord or Fraud?” I had intended to write a long post over the weekend and call it “ Lord or Fraud revisited” However my husband George (never a premie) was very ill over the weekend and admitted to hospital this morning. A few months ago he was diagnosed with advanced stage lung cancer (for two years he had been told it was something else) I tell you this because I want to explain to all my forum friends, where I’ve been all this time. As you can imagine, it has really taken over our lives, and certainly all my spare Internet time has been spent in researching the condition and treatments. (Conventional, complementary and indeed, alternative) It has been a thoroughly earth shattering experience. Looking death in the face, though at second hand in my case, but facing the prospect of watching my loved one suffer and die. It’s been tough, but it has also been very touching and very life enhancing, feeling so much love and support from friends and family, And…the thing I most want to mention here is, how very very glad I am that I had got out of the cult before this happened. If I hadn’t, I feel sure I would have sought refuge there, that I would have used it as a crutch. Maybe I’d even have tried to get George to receive Knolidge before he died….Heaven forbid! I remember how I felt, exactly a year ago, when I pressed the submit button….I was very nervous, it seemed such a big step, and then waiting, for a response or…worse still, no response! Maybe they’ll ignore me. But of course you didn’t, you welcomed me warmly and offered me support and friendship and better still, some insight into the strange predicament in which I found myself. The previous two weeks had also been an earth shattering experience, as I went through the awakening, the exiting process, as it dawned on me that, Omigod, I’m in a cult! I remember shaking as I read EPO. I remember how utterly horrified I was when I saw through it all and how I thought I would never be able to trust my own judgement again. What a compete idiot I’d been. Even now I think my predominant emotion is embarrassment. How could I have fallen for all that rubbish! I have been reading here from time to time, more so lately, and it’s been very interesting. John Macgregor of course has been a real shot in the arm, I’ve printed his posts out along with some of Joe’s and Nigel’s and others. Never forget what a valuable service you all provide here, it really is a lifeline for the wavering and the freshly emerging imagens! How much better life has been! No more separation, no more looking for “that place inside” no more living in “the world of Knolidge.” “That Place” has become this place, this world, this life, and I love it! George is recovering and should be out of hospital in a few days, building up the strength for another dose of chemotherapy. Love to you all, and Happy Anniversary to me! Kelly (Karen Ringrose)

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:05:51 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Thank You Kelly Message:

I remember when I first posted here, it will be 1 year for me in about two weeks. You were one of the first to respond back to me, you seemed so much wiser so much more aware of what was going on than I did at that time. Probably because I first posted as a premie apologist, but thanks to you and many others I quickly caught on. I just want to personally Thank You for being here and helping me disentangle myself from the lies and myths that had dominated my life for so many years. My heart goes out to you and your husband at this time facing the impending crisis of dealing with cancer. I wish you all of the Love, Hope, Strength and Courage possible to get through this. Lots of love to you and yours, your presence has made a big diference here this past year, I look forward to many more years of support and inspiration together as exe's Happy Anniversary

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:18:52 (EST) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Re: First anniversary posting Message:

Hi Kelly, Congratulations on being cult free!!! I am sorry about your husband's health and I congratulate you on your stength. Send you much love and hope. Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:10:27 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Re: First anniversary posting Message:

I'm so sorry to hear that, Kelly. Don't know what to say. I'm so sorry. I'd say 'if there's anything ....' but what can that really mean here? :(

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:31:10 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Re: First anniversary posting Message:

Kelly, I wish I could say that you and your hubby are in my prayers but I'm not sure what that means anymore. I hope and wish the best for you and I'm glad you're out of that silliness too.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:41:43 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Kelly Subject: Kelly! Message:

Hi sweetie. So sad to hear George got sent to the hospital. You have both been in my thoughts these last few months. I have missed hearing from and about you, but I know you need to devote yourself to taking care of George. The cult appears to be self destructing, and much of it seems to be due to Captain Rawat's failure to deal responsibly with Abi. You had a hand in all that as well. Take good care of yourself and George. I miss knowing you are just a short bit away from me! Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:40:45 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Marianne! Message:

Hi Marianne, I've just had a frustrating time . I posted a long message to you but just couldn't get connected and I've lost it now. So...I'll try again. Love Kelly

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:32:43 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Happy Anniversary to you Kelly Message:

I remember how I felt, exactly a year ago, when I pressed the submit button......….I was very nervous,The previous two weeks had also been an earth shattering experience, as I went through the awakening, the exiting process, as it dawned on me that, Omigod, I’m in a cult! I remember shaking as I read EPO. I remember how utterly horrified I was when I saw through it all..... I felt the same myself a couple of months before you,but the nervousness about posting took a long time to wear off. Now I don't have much to say really, back then I was FURIOUS at Rawat. I guess I still am,but shouting gets tiring. I don't know what to say about your husband, except that if there is any value in prayer,as I write this, he is for a moment in mine. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:12:02 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: PatD Subject: Big hug Kelly Message:

You sound determined, strong and full of the love that doesn't require techniques. I applaude your courage and wish you all the best for you and George. A big hug from the upper left coast. Richard

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:09:30 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Kelly Subject: All the Best Kelly Message:

My thoughts are with you. My brother died of lung cancer 5 years ago, and I was very glad there was no longer the 'knowledge' separation between us. In fact, I had talked he and his wife into receiving knowledge the 70s and it resulted in them splitting up for awhile. They left the cult long before I did, but there were some hard feelings, especially while I was still in and there was a wall of separation between us for awhile. After I left the cult, we repaired all the damage, then it was no longer between us by the time he died. I got to spend a week with him during his treatment, and it was hard, but also wonderful. I hope all goes well with you and your husband, and I hope both of you come through all this okay. And thanks for your comments regarding the support that's here. Joe

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:08:03 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Happy Anniversary... Message:

Hi Kelly, I cannot imagine what you are experiencing with George so ill. I've been close to a couple of people with cancer, but never my husband. I send you all the best thoughts to you both. When I read your post I thought, shit, I never recorded the actual date of my exiting or posting here. I do remember the date of my ''knowledge session.'' I'll try the archives. Again, thanks for your heartfelt post. Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:32:45 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I remember well the dates Message:

Hi Cynthia This is kinda funny, but then you see, I have a couple of serious memory jogs to remind me. I received Knowledge Sept 27 1972, Sept 27th is my current wifes birthday, I first posted Dec 7th 2000, Dec 7th is Pearl Harbor Attack Day, ('a day which will go down in infamy' FDR) so the two dates stand out for me quite well. My very first post (then as an apologist premie) "perimeter of choas" co-incidently made the best of forum not so much because of what I has to say at that time, more that the responses were right on. So it is easy to find out there in the archives to remind me of just how far I have come and when I started.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:56:45 (EST) From: Gail Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.ca To: Kelly Subject: Re: First anniversary posting Message:

Thanks for your post. I can only imagine what you and your family are going through. I wish you all the best in that regard. I am glad to hear that so many loving people are there to support you. Congratulations on being cult-free for one year. It really is a big step and you deserve a big pat on the back.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:47:59 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: EV already being dismantled Message:

Well, just speculation on my part, but consider the facts:- John Macgregor and others have said that EV is in a state of chaos, with many resignations. EV did not publicise or report on Maharaji's recent events on their website. EV have removed the FAQ's and Press Releases from their website. EV did not organise the recent events attended by Maharaji. Now it's just Maharaji, and the premies, like he always wanted it. But who's going to do any propagation? John.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:19:57 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: JHB Subject: It's (as usual) About MONEY Message:

I think MacGregor said that donations are way down and people are calling in loans. So, they are getting rid of 'staff' both at Amaroo and Elan Vital. True, the EV website is being dismantled as part of the 'wind down' of that organization. Recall that hate email I got from the anonymous person at Elan Vital a couple of weeks ago? I think that's the last gasp of that organization, probably an act of very undisciplined frustration. I know what Pat said about the local communities raising money for M to come, but if 500 people paid $100 each to go to that thing, that's $50,000 and the program probably cost a few hundred dollars, plus M's 'expnses' I guess his plane fuel and landing costs. He landed at the airport, went a few blocks by limo to the 'event' and then split. I would imagine a very large proporation of the $50,000 did NOT stay in the local premie community, it went to one of M's organizations, probably to try to forstall foreclosure on the Amaroo property. But then it might also be going to adding inlaid diamonds on his toilet on his yacht. Since all of this is secret, one never really knows for sure. M doesn't have any intention of doing 'propagation' in the West. That is a dead issue.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:20:28 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Joe Subject: NONE of that money stays in the community Message:

The local money is paid by cashier's check weeks before the event to the company that stages the events. I forgot the name. The gate fees are collected by that company - usually by phone regsitration/credit card also before the event. The new SmartCards will eventually contain the strip info for creedit/debit cards.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:27:29 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: It's (as usual) About MONEY Message:

How about this for scraping the bottom of the barrel. E'mail received from EV entitled 'Cash windfall for Elan Vital' --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- national email: november 2001 Euro Cash Windfall Opportunity Dear All This is a one-off chance to make a financial contribution at NO (real) COST to you! Do you have any European currency notes or small change rattling around in your drawers? Well now’s your chance to get rid of it and make a difference at the same time. This is an opportunity to benefit the Propagation Fund from virtually nothing and it’s so simple it’s a joy. In February 2002, the national currencies of most EEC countries cease to be legal tender, as they are replaced by the Euro in those countries. Over the years most of us will have accumulated small amounts of currencies from some of those countries that will be rendered worthless in February. HOWEVER, as a charity, Elan Vital can exchange coins as well as notes and receive the £ Sterling equivalent as long as we do it before 31 December. Any money received in January can be sent to Elan Vital in the appropriate country to exchange, for instance Italy or Spain. It is estimated that there may be as much as $ 20,000 to be gained in this way across Europe and this is an opportunity to maximise this potential. So get digging through your drawers and find that little box or tin or wherever you keep those few Francs and Lire and get ready to bring them to a collecting point. Collecting boxes for this limited-life currency will be set up at every hall Broadcast event between now and the end of December. PLEASE make an effort to get it together and take your bits there. If you don’t, you’ll be kicking yourself when it’s too late – I know I would be! Please let everyone (with Knowledge or Aspirant) know about this once-off chance. Perhaps, if you don’t usually go to hall satellite events you could group your cash together with others who live nearby and have one person take it there. Also, any money can be sent direct to the Hove office. Elan Vital: P O Box 999, Hove East Sussex BN3 3HZ The currencies in question are: French Francs German Marks Spanish Pesetas Italian Lira Dutch Guilders Austrian Schillings Finnish Markka Irish Punts Belgian Francs Portuguese Escudos Thanks and happy digging, The Elan Vital UK Resources Team --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Powered by List Builder Click here to change or remove your subscription

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:48:06 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Kelly Subject: He he he, yes, this is, ahem, rich(?) Message:

That's stupendous. Sometimes I wish I was still in the cult just so I could enjoy all this stuff from the inside instead of second-hand like this. I guess that's why I never kick out Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons either. It's all kind of fun, isn't it?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:54:55 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim!..... Message:

I think if a Jo-hove even stuck his head in your place, he'd think you were the devil himself!

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:47:27 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Kelly Subject: *******If you want a laugh****** Message:

Don't miss this opportunity, check the above e-mailing from Elan Vital

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:31:59 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Talk about desperate!!! Message:

Love it, Karen! Sorry to hear about your husband. Anyway, how are the trees? John.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:45:02 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: JHB Subject: Treetalk Message:

Nice to hear from you, I'm really worried about the trees though. Their leaves have been turning brown and worse than that, they have been falling off!! Any tips? Worried of Wales

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:59:48 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Wrong trees Message:

Try Pine, Fir, or Spruce. They are less susceptible to this condition. I've been a bit worried about mine - they fall over when it gets a bit windy and cut off our electricity for six day:-) John.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:43:27 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: JHB Subject: Agreed, John Message:

Next they'll be asking for the contents of kids' piggy banks.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:06:27 (EST) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: JHB Subject: Whoa John! Message:

I think the local premies putting on the large and small local programs, rather than EV, has been going on for quite some time, since the mid 80's, in fact. For example in the SF Bay and beyond, I remember the Pacific Resources entity. What the deal is, as Pat C explained the other day, is that the locals were told that 'the speaker' will only come if they have the resources to put on the program (thus Pacific 'Resources' haha). They were told this in the mid-80s. So basically, the locals pay for everything, the hall, M and his entourage's transporation, lodging, food, and probably miscellaneous related expenses. I don't believe the locals get any profit from the program. The take at the door, or at least the lion's share of it, is 'the speaker's fee,' or something like that. So the fact that the locals put on the program is not a sign of EV collapse, although one does have to wonder what the rest of the information that you reported means. It's been a while with the website, press pack and info. But I don't know if they get any substantive press inquiries. I might not be off the mark when I say that the only people who care about M, his org, and what he says and does, are premies, expremies, and parents of those who were abused sexually, or who gave away their inheritances or trust funds to a fraud. --f

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:04:15 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: Kitty Subject: Re: Get your 'quotes' right Message:

you pompously use 'the fact is' and other high handed statements so maybe you should get your 'facts' right if you want to sound so informed there is no 'speakers fee' fact --- The only place the word fact appears in the above post is in this context: So the fact that the locals put on the program is not a sign of EV collapse, although one does have to wonder what the rest of the information that you reported means. So Kitty CAT, get your quotes right. And quit being so insulting, it doesn't become you. --f

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:57:08 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Kitty Subject: There's no ''Speaker's'' Fee.. But Expenses... Message:

Hello Kitty, How are you today? I think you're correct in that Maharaji doesn't receive speaker's fee. However, if I remember correctly, Elan Vital has consistently paid for Maharaji's accommodation and travel expenses. How those expenses are calculated and distributed to Maharaji is probably very confidential. Good to hear from you. Don't be mad. We're just regular people trying to figure things out. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:59:39 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: FA ON DUTY....please... Message:

Is Kitty a new persona of CW? Just wondering....

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:07:19 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: FA ON DUTY....please... Message:

Is Kitty a new persona of CW? Just wondering.... --- That's a likely guess. Understand these critters know how to hide their tracks and some of 'em are as slippery as greased hogs on the Fourth of July. Besides, them's pat's duties, trackin varmits. I just bake the biscuits.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:05:19 (EST) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: TROLL altert? I wonder too. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:14:09 (EST) From: The Exterminator Email: None To: Francesca ~) Subject: TROLL Message:

It was tim et al the latest multi-alias troll. I warned him. Post deleted. IP blocked. :C)

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:49:30 (EST) From: Troll Email: None To: The Exterminator Subject: IP blocked? Sure!! Message:

blocked from what? Your pathetic Ghengis Khan fantasies? the only thing blocked Patsie, is the flow of truthful, coherant information from your brain to your mouth you incompetant goose now you'll have to delete this - the humiliation would be too much to bear

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:58:31 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Troll Subject: Well, I tried but fanatics like you... Message:

.....will always find a way to weasel in where you are not welcome. I used to be a catholic then I saw through the BS and left. Since then I have written and published and spoken out against the RC church for the past 35 years. In all that time the only arguments made against me by members of that church have been conducted respectfully without resorting to insults and intimidation. Yes, they get upset when I mock the pope but they still behave themselves and resist making Cacroach style ad hominems. I wonder why? No I don't. That's the difference between democratic people who belong to a church which they know is not universally loved and a truly mind-warping and anti-social cult like you are in. I hope you realize that sane people will see that. Oh, sorry, I forgot only PWKs are sane. The rest of the world is mentally defective. I'm sorry to say it but I think you must be deranged.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:12:24 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: PatC Subject: Get your facts straight Bumface Message:

Listen Patrick I did not author what is above. Just clarifying for anyone you may confuse. I have tosay though ,you are reallystarting to push the envelope. Why dont you back down a little. You seem to think that the whole known Universe replicates your taste.You would be wrong there Pat. Now try to not make me get all unreasonable and sassy.I might just bite.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:31:38 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Kitty Subject: Explain it then Message:

If there is no speaker's fee, how does Maharaji get paid? There must be some mechanism. After all we all get paid for our work and expertise. How IS maharaji remunerated?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:30:45 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Kitty Subject: So? Message:

No 'speakers fee.' What the hell does that mean? One thing it doesn't mean is that M wasn't doing fundraising for whatever it is he wants to spend it on, all of which is a secret, even from the people who paid $100 for a 2-hour 'event.'

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:37:05 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: Joe Subject: Haven't you heard? Message:

Joe, Joe, Joe.... M is a filan.... pilan.... philanthropist, yeah that's it... Philanthropist..... or was it misanthrope? I can never get it straight.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:11:59 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Francesca :) Subject: Maybe so, but..... Message:

Previous 'small' programs were advertised and subsequently reported on EV's website. Nothing's happening there at all. Maybe their webmaster is now an ex! John the happy to announce 'abandon ship' several miles from the iceberg

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:19:25 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: All Subject: family of LIARS Message:

From Satpal's site, describing Mata Ji's 'work': While still young she saw Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, in a vision. She knew that he was her intended husband and refused to even consider anyone else. In due course they were married. She attended many satsang programs during his lifetime, but tended to keep a low profile. She was loved and revered as 'Gurumata' by the devotees, but very few knew how powerful she was in her own right. For the time being she was content to remain in the background, but was nonetheless always busy, looking after her family, mahatmas, ashram residents and a steady stream of visitors. Her pure, simple nature and generosity won everyone's heart. Shri Hans Ji Maharaj left this world in 1966. It was very sudden, like a bolt from the blue. A vacuum was created which would be difficult to fill. Naturally, all his devotees (called 'premies') were grief-stricken and felt orphaned. In spite of her own grief, Shri Mata Ji sustained them and stepped forward to continue where Shri Hans Ji Maharaj had left off. Her oration after the funeral ceremony was inspiring and stirring. She exhorted her sons, mahatmas and devotees: 'Come and join me in taking an oath to follow the path laid down by our beloved Master! Let us do our best, to dedicate our all to spread the spiritual knowledge in India and abroad. Our every breath will be spent for the sake of humanity and we will follow in Maharaj Ji's footsteps with faith and humility.' After the passing away of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj there was a transformation in Mata Ji . She left behind her sheltered life and took the reins of his mission, She plunged into spreading the spiritual Knowledge, regarding it as Shri Hans Ji Maharaj's bequest. The children were still at school, so for the next few years, she was the guiding force for the devotees. From 1966 until November 1991 she spent every moment of her life preaching the Knowledge, building ashrams, teaching and encouraging devotees, caring for and inspiring the mahatmas and ashram residents. It was a period of expansion and the movement started by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj spread worldwide under her benign leadership. She gave thousands of discourses all over India and abroad which have been printed in magazines and also in book form. At the first Hans Jayanti program at Ramlila Ground, Delhi, she paid her respects and reverence to Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, saying, 'Shri Hans Ji Maharaj truly sacrificed himself for the sake of others. He gave everything he had to the devotees, with no thought for himself.. It is generally the case however, that when holy masters come into this world we don't hear them and respect them. Rather, we criticize them.' She passed away on 25th November, 1991, but her work is being continued and expanded by Mata Amrita Ji (wife of Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj) and Mata Mangla Ji (wife of Shri Bhole Ji). As Shri Amrita Ji said in tribute, 'Shri Mata Ji was the embodiment of motherhood. She had all that a mother should have - love, mercy, grace, sacrifice, devotion and wisdom. She was the emblem of all virtues.' Not even a word about guruji?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 16:13:27 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: salsa Subject: Family of Revisionists too Message:

It appears that the Sat Pal camp knows how to rewrite the history of DLM to accomadate their story and purpose too. It seems that there are a few lost years in the Lord of the Universe story that no-one in that family wants to take responsibility for. Very Strange, and also very revealing as to the methods of deceptions that these people will stoop to.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:54:44 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: Family of Revisionists too Message:

Hi Brian, I noticed that too. Both camps have their own ''story.'' And both are lies! As far as their combined weight, well, I am happy they are happy being fat, rather than our (US at least) culture of anorexia nervosa. What strikes me most are Sat Pal's frowns.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 00:56:22 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: These Crowns of Creation, these Avatars Message:

These Lotus Flowers, these two Perfect Masters can't even find enough universal Love between the lot of them to fill a thimble, let alone mend their own fences. You would think of all people that two professed realized masters of the alledged knowledge of the ages could easily find a way to deal with their own personal issues. They could by example practically apply their philosopy in their own lives and practice experiencing that peace, that love, that divinity and rise above or at least settle the rift that has separated the Rawats for years. It's an interesting question to ponder, these supposed two great realized souls cannot even rise above the worldly challenges of a family fued. This should be small potatoes for High Souls of this caliber, after all as masters they should have attained a state of non-attachment to mundane worldly issues and exist in a sustained consciousness of bliss. It seems reasonable that they should be able to master their own emotions and come to peaceful terms as brothers and once again experience that Joy together. I wonder? Why wouldn't a good dose of mutual Sat Sang between them work to bridge the gaps, that ought to work. Just so long as they both remember to stay in holy name, that is. There are just too many holes in this picture. Brian the Holely Family Therapist and Counselor

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:24:51 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Changing Body Images Message:

Sat Pal (Bal Bagwhan Ji), unlike his brother Prem Pal, was actually quite thin as a young man, but no more. Bohle Ji was always a tub, but it looks like he has really packed it on, and weighs at least 300 lbs, and Sat Pal has gained at least 100 lbs from his younger days. And, of course, Prem Pal is just as fat as ever. I guess they inherited this from the corpulent Mata Ji, as Shri Hans, at least in his pictures, seemed quite trim. I wonder if they have also inherited Mata Ji's flatulence.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:21:33 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: LOL! Flatulence... Message:

Joe, I thought the same thing! Then you said it first. What is it about us humans? Mention a fart and we laugh and laugh...from childhood all the way on up...and it's cross cultural, too. I've gotta go and cook spaghetti now. Later

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:50:34 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: salsa Subject: Sat Pal: Question for PAMS Message:

Did Maharaji ever talk about Sat Pal? It seems that Sat Pal has a bigger following than Maharaji in India, and that Sat Pal is propagating to the very same Hindu diaspora in places like Britain, Malaysia and Africa, that Maharaji is. Also, since M is such a failure at propagation to others in the West, perhaps they are really in open competition for the same audience? I think it's amazing to see those pictures of Hans Jayanti in India and see Bohle Ji, as part of the Holy Family (they certainly eat well, don't they?), and that neither Sat Pal, nor Maharaji even publicly acknowledge the existence of the other. Is this just immature rivalry on their parts? What does Maharaji think of Sat Pal? Does he just see him as another division of the same business operation? I did note that unlike his brother, Sat Pal does not consider it beneath him to travel on commerical airliners, which he recently did from Amsterdam to Kenya, according to his website. Maharaji, on the other hand, would not be caught dead on a commercial airliner and as a consequence has to constantly hit up the premies for the Gulfstream -- the expensive extravagance he feels he must have. Of course, he isn't about to spend any of his $50 million (US) on something like that.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:13:19 (EST) From: Manav Dharam Email: None To: All Subject: Hans Jayanti a huge success Message:

This year's Hans Jayanti festival to honor Shri Hans was a huge success. It was held in New Delhi. Over 100,000 people with Knowledge attended from all over India and from several other countries. Shri Hans' son, the present living Master, gave satsang and darshan. For a full account, with pictures, see the Manav Dharam website. [ Manav Dharam ]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:31:39 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Manav Dharam Subject: Re: Hans Jayanti a huge success Message:

do you think all Prempal 'premies' went there ?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:39:27 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Notice Bohle Ji in the Pictures Message:

He isn't wearing a sparkly suit, or pretending he is leading a 'band,' but he is considered part othe 'holy family' nonetheless. Isn't it bizarre that neither Sat Pal, nor Maharaji ever so much as acknolwedge the existence of the other? How childish can you get?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 13:41:42 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Notice Bohle Ji in the Pictures Message:

Hi Joe, Bohle Ji looks miserable in the photos. Maybe it's gas.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:34:29 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Miserable and Bored Message:

Oh Well, what has he got to motivate himself and get excited about, Bhole ji has reached the pinnacle of his success in the family business. He projects the deadened resignation of one who has accepted that he will never ever transcend his lot in life. Not that he has been dealt a bad hand either, but here is a man who will always be an appendage, a second bannana, a third string player, a boil on the ass of the lord of the universe, nothing more. Sat Pal's new kid looks like he is being groomed for the next big position whenever the job opens up again, Bhole Ji has the look of a man who knows it. And you're probably right Cynthia, that gas thing he inherited, you know that can't help in brightening his attitude either.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:57:42 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Notice Bohle Ji in the Pictures Message:

He looks exactly the same to me as he did back in the dim & distant,just as fat & with the same fucking smirk. Maybe you're confusing him with BBJ's son, the long haired git. BBJ looks just like those Persian portraits of Ghenghis Khan. What the fuck's going on here. Sonia Ghandi there & that other Indian pol with the unfortunate name....Dikshit, I mean can't she afford a deed poll? Let's hear some conspiracy theories. Anyone?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 13:29:19 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! Message:

manavdharam.org/news/photo_gallery/birth_sjm/pages/birth_sjm3.html hope the link works: manavdharam.org/news/photo_gallery/birth_sjm/pages/birth_sjm3.html

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 14:31:59 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! Message:

[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:40:28 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! Message:

Oh how Indian they all look.... guess that 'proves' they're holy! What's with all the pastry at the bottom of the page? Weight-watchers this isn't :-)

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:27:35 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: New Age Redneck Subject: Is Bohle wearing PEARLS? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:22:13 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: New Age Redneck Subject: Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! Message:

Did you see the kid in the back, behind all them weight watcher folks in the funny dresses, lookin' like the cat that just swallered the canary? We may have a real contender for the next Satguru of our time in that young feller!

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:32:49 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Bhole Ji - what a cutesy ! Message:

Gerry, oh no..... not AGAIN! If they start lookin' at each other and smilin', that's the 'passdown,' remember?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 14:30:32 (EST) From: Suzanne Email: None To: cq Subject: Is that an advert for Weight Watchers? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:29:41 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: Manav Dharam Subject: Re: Hans Jayanti a huge success Message:

Can you give a warning sign before you link to such holly places. I hate shock tactics.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 10:40:08 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Apology to David Roupell Message:

Dave, I read your response to me in the thread below. I sincerely apologize for the whitepages remark which could be considered the equivalent of posting your address, by someone like you who is as obviously upset by our expose of the corruption in your cult. I can see this has frightened you badly and for that I am sorry. We all deserve to feel safe in our homes David, and you can rest assured that I do not advocate violence against you or anyone. I find it somewhat strange you think I need to "out" your whereabouts to my new Aussie friends in order to 'get' you. I would presume they already know where you live since they are your former (or perhaps current) associates. The reason I wanted you to know I know where you live is obvious: I asked you politely to refrain from posting here and you continued do doso against my expressed wishes. Now that I know where you live and who your internet provider is I at least have to possibility of taking my complaints to them. Shame on you for assuming some sort of thuggery, it was the last thing on my mind. Yes, I realize it is by Guru Maharaji's grace that this forum is allowed to exist. Not a leaf moves and all that, I suppose one could find a way to wreck the forum, but that would be another PR disaster for the cult. Beyond that, you've already made public your threat to hack our forum. Please consider this might not be the best time for advocating cyber-terrorism or terrorism of any kind. I do take your ugly comments about my readership as a serious affront. I wish you'd apologise for the nasty things you've said about them. I would feel better about you as a real person if you would please do so. You seem to get very angry here David, and that's troubling to me. I dislike seeing you in a frenzy like this. Are you aware of the 'Heart Meditation?' Try it, it goes like this: Recognize when you are feeling stress. Take a moment and place your awareness on your physical heart area. You can imagine yourself as 'breathing' through your heart if that helps focus your attention. Recall a time when you felt especially good. Try to actually experience the feeling now. Ask yourself what would be a more efficient response to the situation, one which might minimize stress in the future. And lastly, listen to your heart's response and act upon it. I hope this helps, Dave. I'd hate to see you or anyone 'blow a gasket' over a mere website.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:43:18 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Blame and shame for David Roupell Message:

On the other side of the balance sheet, Roupell, I'd like to remind you yet again that you've promised to stay off this forum. As you yourself must even recognize, your arguments against any of the damning truth and revelations against Maharaji surfacing here, are no more than limp ad hominem attacks on the messengers. If this were a boxing match, the ref would have called the fight rounds ago, despite your punch drunk stumbling. So, I'm just asking you to live up to your word for once. Get lost.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:57:01 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: But Jim, what about Roupell's heart? Message:

Have a heart, Jim. We don't want Roupell to go away mad, but to just go away. I think we should all hold cyber hands and say a little prayer for our soon to-be-departed-from-this-forum brother Roupell.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:28:18 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: gerry Subject: My New Age affirmation Message:

This is supposed to work when you don't like somneone and want to tell them to fuck off but don't like giving off bad vibes. Hey it's bad karma, brother. Here it is: ''May david Roupell find his good elsewhere.''

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 11:42:32 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Oh and Dave, Forum Stats... Message:

Forum stats show this is our biggest month yet in terms of page views. I project an increase of 20% over October and expect December to be our first month with a quarter million page views. So, far from being in decline, the forum is growing. You fancy there's an inverse proportional relationship between our page view stats and the Captain's coffers? (snicker)

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:59:34 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Oh and Dave, Forum Stats... Message:

Gerry, now there you go making us look 'significant' again.... he he he. BTW, good to see that the forum is in good hands! :-)

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 05:24:09 (EST) From: Scott T. Email: None To: All Subject: eerily familiar: PABL not PAM Message:

Al-Qaeda man freed from Riyadh jail reveals it all By Hasin Al-Binayyan, Arab News Staff Arab News Monday, November 26, 2001 RIYADH, 26 November - A former Saudi associate of Osama Bin Laden and Abdullah Azzam, Hasan Al-Seraihi claimed that he was present in Osama Bin Laden’s camp in Peshawar when Al-Qaeda organization was founded. In an interview to Asharq Al-Awsat, Al-Seraihi, one of the early Afghan Arab Mujahedeen, narrated the circumstances in which he joined the jihad in Afghanistan in 1986. This former imam at the Ibn Baz Mosque in Makkah was released from a Riyadh jail after six years of imprisonment following Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Fahd’s amnesty to hundreds of prisoners to mark the beginning of this year’s Ramadan. His first meeting with the Mujahedeen leaders took place at the insistence of the renowned Islamic scholar the late Sheikh Muhammad Al- Othaimeen, who sent him to Afghanistan in 1986 to verify the genuineness of the calls for jihad from Afghanistan. The sheikh was concerned about the large number of Saudi youths responding to the jihad call made by Abdullah Azzam urging Muslims to join the holy war against the Russians. After meetings with Professor Burhanuddin Rabbani and several other leaders in Afghanistan, Al- Seraihi returned home being convinced that the Afghans needed only material and financial support and not additional fighting hands in their battle against the Soviets. However, several overzealous youths, who wanted to join the Mujahedeen forces, challenged Al-Seraihi’s recommendations to his teacher Sheikh Othaimeen. Some people disliked Al-Seraihi’s views so much that they even refused to greet him. He told the sheikh about his difficulties with people as a result of his stand against the jihad and expressed his desire to join the Afghan Mujahedeen so that his friends would not think him that he was averse to jihad. The sheikh consented and Al- Seraihi again left for Afghanistan where he met with Bin Laden. Al-Seraihi was respected by other Saudi mujahideen and became an associate of Bin Laden and other prominent leaders of the Afghan Arabs. Al-Seraihi is one of the four people who attended the secret meeting in which Al-Qaeda was founded. The other three were the Egyptian Jihad leaders Abu Obaida Al- Banshiri and Abu Hafs Al-Misri, who was killed in the US strikes on Kandahar, in addition to Bin Laden. The idea of Al-Qaeda was, in fact, conceived by Al- Banshari and Al-Misri with the basic objective of creating an international army to fight for the Islamic cause. 'One day when I visited Bin Laden’s camp I found with him Al-Banshari and Al-Misri in the company of some journalists. After the visitors left, there remained only Al-Banshari, Al-Misri, Bin Laden and myself. The calm- looking Al-Banshari turned to me and started speaking in a quiet voice: You know that Brother Osama has spent a lot of money to train and buy weapons for the Arab Mujahedeen. We should not waste this investment after the jihad against the Russians. We should reorganize them under an Islamic army with the name Al-Qaeda. The army should be always ready to uphold the cause of Islam and Muslims in any part of the world. Its members should be thoroughly trained,' he said. Al-Seraihi objected to the scheme and said he did not want to be involved in it. The other three apparently wanted his cooperation because his words were respected by all other Saudi members in the Mujahedeen camp. At last he agreed not to oppose their move. Speaking about the recruitment and training of Al-Qaeda, Al-Seraihi said Al-Qaeda recruited unquestioningly obedient and zealous youths at an early age. If the organization was fully pleased with a new recruit he would be asked to go to his parents and relatives to bid them farewell for good. Then he would be subjected to rigorous training to make him qualified for the suicide force. Speaking about Bin Laden’s health, Al-Seraihi said Al- Qaeda’s founder always carried with him some kind of salt to keep his low blood pressure under control. He also suffered from kidney complaints and diabetes. Al-Seraihi, who is married to three women — two Pakistanis and a Frenchwoman - acknowledged that it was a gross mistake to leave his earlier career of propagating Islam and regretted his joining the jihad and spending his youth with a movement which resorted to violence. 'No one else might have suffered like me from the deep mental agony over wasting the prime years of my life with young men who did not know the value of their lives. They will, no doubt, be answerable on the Day of Judgment for the innocent people they have killed,' the repentant terrorist said. Source - http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=10827

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 16:59:44 (EST) From: TED Farkel Email: None To: All Subject: New Years bash at theTrac Center... Message:

Hey y'all- Ole TED Farkel here down at the TRAC Center just wanting to let you all know that we're planning a big new year's bash this year, so don't be shy, and c'mon down! Of course we'll be headlining the festivities with a new, 'special' video from Visions, and it goes somethin like this (directly quoted from visions): The year in review. In a topical and poetic approach, with graphics highlighting selected quotes, this program follows the thread of 3 themes from m's talks in 2001: Breath,Thirst and Appreciation. Duration: 60 minutes. Now don't that beat all? Once again, our merciful, digital lord giving us jus what we all need! I mean, for ole TED, it's just so perfect, cos I really was not appreciatin my breath and that thirst as much as my lord thinks I need to be. See, I kinda take it for granted that if I'm thirsty, I'll get a drink, and if I feel like breathing, I'll breathe, but as the resident TRAC instructor, Dave Smith so aptly pointed out to me just the other day: everything our lord gives us is a gift! Now that's pretty profound too! Ranks right up there with 'Nothing celebrates life, like life itself!' I tell ya folks, where would we all be without his grace? Why for me, I'd be downing foamies and drumming on oil cans at the full moon, but now, by his grace, I get to drink my foamies and drum on those cans and it's all service! Y'all take care now, and get those reservations in right now so ya can get those good seats up at the front. We'll be makin up the 'fine dining' menu soon, but ya can rest assured that there'll be plenty of 'road kill stew' and a select bottle of moonshine for each table...I suspect it'll run ya about $150 US/person, but lots more if 'you know who' is there...and who knows 'what he'll be doin' at this years bash! Also, about $800/person for site fees, plus the usual tent, food and bathroom fees. 'Trainings, TRAC style' will run ya bout $1000 apiece... And, a 'special donation' is required...bout $500 or more would be nice... Blue Aquarius will be winding down their tour, and will playing a few old time tunes for ya. And of course, Mr.eDrek's 'holy family action figure' collectible set will be available for ya at 'festival prices'. Well, that's about it for now...see y'all in a few weeks! Warmly, TED Farkel Special note for new exes: If you're new to this epo thing, ole TED's just started the 'Farkel Foundation' grant to get ya in the TRAC Center for bout half price.(I got the money from foamie sales at the weekly Tuesday night wet T-shirt/Video events from the last year.) We welcome any of you new aussies, except we may have to run that Mr. Macgregor through some security briefings, seein how he has said that he once pranamed to Bhole Ji, made some holy mother flatulence remarks, and once got a little too cozy with Monica. Besides that, he seems to be a right smart fella, and we welcome him, after raja and the boys have a little 'satsang' with him.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:18:19 (EST) From: Gaucho Email: None To: All Subject: posted by gerry by request Message:

This was an email sent to me and I welcome Gaucho to the discussion and encourage her to post on her own. Hi Gerry I don't want to post directly but I just want to say this in response to Searcher about his Christmas gift post. And to thank all of you for this forum. I really enjoy it. I'm really afraid of the challenging or attacks but I'm ready. It's OK if someone may think that Jesus was another con, when I found Maharaji I was really looking for him and it hurt to discover all these wrong things about M. God, where were you? Were you carrying me and these footprints on the sand really belong to you? Do they really exist? Areyou carrying me? Do you exists? When I was 16 sometimes I said to God You don't exist, but looking around I couldn't believe myself, now is the opposite, when I say He exists I don't believe myself and it's painful, so painful. My husband was telling me the other day, (just comparing and laughing)that Jesus never said 'give everything to me,' he said give it to the poor, and he also said 'follow me' not 'be at my feet'. People back then didn't need another Caesar' and neither do we. When he started washing his disciples feet, one of them couldn't handle it, and Jesus told him that if he didn't allow him to do it he wouldn't take part with him, so he responded 'wash not only my feet but everything' What a beautiful way to be part of it, Jesus really was an active participant on the trainings. Love to all.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:03:05 (EST) From: Gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Defamation, Intimidation, and Pwk Trolls Message:

Notices to Cultweasels: Your libelous remarks about any of the posters here will no longer be tolerated. I understand that the recent revelations from Oz have stirred your anger and shaken your faith once again and you are attempting to intimidate the writers with your false accusations and libel. Well, we are not going to waste our time defending lies, as we have bigger (and fatter) fish to fry. Pat, if you see these stupid posts by Catweasel et al and they are attempting to defame or otherwise attack our friends here, especially new people like the Mac's who seem to be a particular target of harrassment at the present, delete them. Of course I will do the same. Then I think we should make a concerted effort to identify and convince them it would be in their better interest to stop their unwanted activities here. Also I think we should consider hiring professionals if necessary.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 02:30:32 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: Defamation, Intimidation, and Pwk Trolls Message:

What is this little Ghost town of a thread? Men in Black? The Cleaners?the Mossad? Noooooo! It's the old Queen of Cape Town ...Her royal Lowness....Fat Pat. Making things disappear with his long skinny Fairy Wand. There you go little fella..Poof!!!!!!!!!!Hey where did that go? ...Pooof.....Oh another one.....Pooof....They are disappearing like Helium ballons.....ssssqueck................

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:57:34 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re professionals?-hire me Message:

just give me cat's address, work location, and a relatives address.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 23:48:29 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: CW Subject: Face it Message:

The main meditation technique that Maharaji goes on about is being sold in Sainsbury's supermarkets for less than £2. So what's this cult all about then? What's the point of it? It doesn't even provide a social life like it did during the seventies. Christ, I would have gone to a few meetings again by now if I thought I'd feel some good vibes and meet some nice people. But videos of Maharaji. No thanks. I'd rather have a bath.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:09:54 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: Defamation, Intimidation, and Pwk Trolls Message:

Catweasel, I read my email before I read your post and I was alerted that cultweasels were defaming John. I opened your post and read the first line and figured you were the offender. I saved your post before I deleted it and yes, it was mild banter and not that offensive. I'm assuming you were responding to and not making the original accusations against John Mac? I'll repost your response if you want me to. Here's the deal: I want this forum to be a place where people like John can come and share their experiences in a reasonably civil environment. I really don't want anyone defaming or harrassing people with these unsubstantiated accusations. Or substantiated accusations, I don't care. The subject here is Maharaji and his foibles, not the forum participants. So anyone who attacks forum participants is going to get a bit of a rough time, I'm afraid. It's only natural. I really don't want you guys here, disrupting our little party. I'm not interested in causing you or anyone of your colleagues any harm. I do think that the CAC perpetrators should be held accountable for their libelous actions. And I don't understand why you would not be afraid of being unmasked? After all, if we identify you, and you persist in harrassing people here, I'd think we would have some sort of a legal complaint against you. Why would you welcome that?

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 19:35:21 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: CW can disprove involvement with CAC Message:

CW said: ''I can easily disprove any invovement with CAC.'' Okay. Do it then. Until that time you are one of the prime suspects. You also said: ''I probably have a better idea of what you can legally do and what you cant than you think.'' So it must be true then that you are lawyer in Melbourne. I have heard that from two Aussies, one an ex and one a PWK. I won't post the name they gave me because I take the CAC attack seriously enough not to want to jeopardise any investigation.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 22:39:11 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: CW Subject: How doyou lynch an anonymous ghost? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:21:31 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Cw Subject: Scaredy Cat frightened? Message:

Thus spake the Cacweasel: ''I am happy enough to allow your witchhunt to proceed Patricia. And if you continue to IMPLY what cannot be proven , I suggest we may well both be eagerly awaiting the results of your 'investigation' - for vastly different reasons. You have the propensity to go off well and truly half cocked Pat. Let's hope you dont suffer any repercussions from your overactive imagination. You'll learn that merely by saying something does not give it legitimacy. Nor does a lynch mob have the protection of the law.'' Pussy, I really don't wish fear on anyone but you sound quite frightened in fact rigid with anger and trepidation. That is a sure sign of being on the defensive; or it could be that you are simply using the cheap tactics of an ambulance-chaser/shyster or is it simply CACroach tactics? Sounds awfully like it. Issuing veiled threats and vague warnings seems to be a specialty of both incompetent shysters and blackmailers like CAC. And don't worry pussy, I won't say anything incriminating until it can be proven.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 09:53:06 (EST) From: give it to him Email: None To: PatC Subject: juajuajuahahahhahaa NT Message:

hahahaha

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 17:56:28 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: CW Subject: Cat, this is nonsense! Message:

How can you disprove that you had no involvement with CAC> I can't disprove I had no involvement, so how can you? The only way I can think of is if you were in solitary confinement in prison with no visitors, telephone, or access to the internet, for the several months (at least) before CAC appeared. Come on De Cat, how can you make such a stupid statement? John.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:27:44 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: CW Subject: That's not what you said! Message:

Cat, You said YOU could prove your non-involvement with CAC, NOT that others couldn't prove your involvement. There is a difference. I personally think it unlikely you had anything to do with it. John.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:43:00 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: CW Subject: The Enigmatic Cat Message:

And if you wish to be intimidatory and selective in your presentation of all views ,so be it. We have been here before. It's a silly game you are starting. As a struggling Americano I often have a difficult time understanding your posts, Cat. No such problem with JohnM though. I don't want to intimidate you or any sincere person, pwk or not. And I don't want cultweasels intimidating posters here by making accusations against them. Cat, we know what your side of the story is, and we are now attempting to present our own. It's YOU who appears intimidating and selective in your presentation of the self proclaimed 'Master.'

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 20:04:37 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: CW Straight Up? hummmm Message:

CW said: ''John posting does not phase me. I am not attempting to 'intimidate' him. You must be reading something into my conversation that simply wasn't there.My side of the story has never really been told...and wont be.'' I deliberately did not delete your response to John when I saw it because I hoped that he would read it and see that you were attempting to intimidate him. Perhaps you were talking to him in Strine and perhaps all you Strines go around intimidating people all the time. But civilized folk here in the west don't do that in jest. We take our intimidation seriously. Your posts here are often hostile and insulting. Those are the most commonly used tools for intimidation. As for your story not being told here - please tell. You have had ample opportunity to post more than your usual insulting one-liners and flippant non sequiturs. You know as well as I do that there are quite a few of us here who would read what you have to say if you wrote it sincerely and honestly. Sure, we may argue with you about it but that's called democracy. You know what that is don't you? It's the way regular folk who aren't in a cult communicate.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:48:33 (EST) From: Asst FA Email: None To: WCF Subject: Request to above poster, WCF Message:

All forums which allow anonymity expect participants to pick one handle and stick to it. In the four major threads below you have used four aliases: WCF, tim, Clive and a.d. This is disrespectful, undemocratic and plain rude. You will not be welcome here if you continue your anti-social behavior. In fact I doubt if you will be welcome here after everyone reads what you said to Deborah when you posted as a.d. Your vicious post to her was quite out of context in that thread and totally unwarranted. This was included in your post to Deborah: ''...you are one sick little pup...'' I thought at first that you were a troll but I now see that your are a cultweasel. Pull one more stunt like that and I will publish your IP# and post TROLL ALERTS on all your posts. You will be effectively discredited and silenced. You will have become even more unwelcome on this forum that you already are.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 19:17:15 (EST) From: Nickelodeon Email: None To: Asst FA Subject: Request denied. Message:

u hav no power ova me nun

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 20:37:18 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Nickelodeon Subject: Multiple Alias Troll.... Message:

...may you find your good elsewhere.:) On this forum you are regarded as bad.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 08:54:09 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: CW Subject: Cat lies like a cheap rug! Message:

I'm so glad your here to protect us Best way is by deleting nasty anonyomous trolls like you.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 13:56:50 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: gerry Subject: Yes, Gerry, this is an ex-premie forum Message:

Thanks for the nod to delete intimidatory posts by cultweasels. Will do. I see nothing wrong with that and will only begin to feel doubts about the rightness of that IF and WHEN ex-premies are allowed to post on premie sites without censorship.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:26:26 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: PatC Subject: correct Message:

I was blocked from Life Is Great because 'my reality' was too ugly for them. I wanted to say how good life is without maharaji but they couldn't take it and blocked me. I wasn't bothering anybody, in fact, I was insulted and called names over there. Yeah, CWs should be deleted. Talking about dense... Hi Pat C. Silvia

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:25:01 (EST) From: such Email: None To: salsa Subject: salsa, Message:

contact yet w/ Arg. media, r.e. The Possibility? [been wondering...]

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:28:29 (EST) From: no Email: None To: such Subject: Re: salsa, Message:

i will soon though. No excuses. Simply I have been very busy. Love, silvia

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 02:21:29 (EST) From: John Macgregor Email: None To: All Subject: Neurotheology Message:

Here's a story on 'spiritual' experiences and the brain, which I wrote for a paper (The Age) here in Oz last month, and which may be of interest to some brothers and sisters. I got the idea from a great link which someone posted here earlier in the year. But first, I hear I've been attacked personally again. Just for the record: I was never in my life a serious dope-smoker; I have not smoked dope for some years; I have never had any form of mental illness; and I haven't committed or abetted adultery since my youthful post-ashram days. NB: about half my premie circle here supplements the Knowledge of all knowledges with dope - so it's not exactly easy to avoid. My friend Mr SC will hopefully verify all the above if needed, as he knows me, and others who have known me since '72. There seems to be a general attempt to depict me as mentally unsound at present. (I wonder why?) My especial thanks to Nigel for his great post on 'divine' experiences around perfect masters, totalitarian dictators, and the like. Here's some more fuel for that fire: Neurotheology by John Macgregor When our species became reflective - that is, when we became human - life and all it contained must have seemed an endlessly marvellous thing. Lacking even the faintest notion of evolution, and its handmaiden of vast time, and noting our own ability to design a tool-kit, shelter and clothing, the logic of the age possibly suggested that everything around us also had a designer. But if reflection carried us into the idea of the divine, further reflection might eventually have carried us out of it: in the last 200 years, Western thinkers have re-examined history, applied rational thought, and deconstructed God. Then, in turn, just when atheists seemed to have won the intellectual high ground, the West's 'new religions' burst upon the scene. These mostly Eastern-derived approaches threw out the need for logical or historical proofs - instead citing their adherents' personal, inner experience of God's reality. For about 30 years, sceptics have been kept in check by these claims. It was easy enough to demonstrate an absence of historical evidence for the Resurrection, or that Krishna never existed - but 'transcendent experiences' were harder to argue with. The cults of the early 1970s were the shock troops, but their emphasis on 'experience', 'consciousness' and gnosis (direct revelatory knowledge) soon permeated through to wider currents of thought, which saw 'experiental' paths like Buddhism, yoga and meditation become widely popular. But now the worm has turned again, and science has done some catching up. Neurologists have come up with evidence of what sceptics have suspected all along: that these 'divine', 'unitary' or 'cosmic' experiences appear to be the result of some incredibly sophisticated brain chemistry. Adelaide psychologist Michael Thalbourne has defined something he calls transliminality - a receptiveness to impulses and experiences whose sources are unconscious. He says: 'I found that people high in transliminality are also likely to be more religious and to have spiritual experience. So my guess is that the forerunners of spiritual experiences lie in unconscious regions, which are stimulated in some way that makes them 'cross the threshold' into consciousness.' So what kind of stimulation might be involved? '[The] methods,' says David Wulff - Professor of Psychology at Wheaton College in Massachusetts - 'can be roughly divided into those that overstimulate the nervous system - dancing, drumming, etcetera - and those that reduce stimulation, such as prayer and meditation. 'The latter, which are often pursued in solitude, are often thought to be more profound than the former, which almost always are a group phenomenon, and may therefore exploit the mutually facilitating effects of 'emotional contagion'.' Can some of these experiences be traced to brain activity? 'Near-death experiences,' Wulff says, 'have been traced by at least one investigator to one very specific site - the Sylvian fissure in the right temporal lobe.' Last year the book 'Varieties of Anomalous Experience: Examining the Scientific Evidence' was published in the US. A chapter by Wulff outlined some well-accepted aspects of 'spiritual' experience. These include ineffability (the experience being 'beyond words'), and 'a deep, authoritative knowledge or insight'. Spiritual experiences also confer the feeling that one is in the grip of some superior power, and tend to fade in time (transiency). Other aspects include loss of fear, a loss of time awareness, a loss of self-consciousness; acceptance, oneness with others and the universe, and of course the astounding experiences of travel down tunnels and absorption into light sometimes described by those who have been near death. Like most researchers in this field, Dr Wulff believes that sourcing spiritual experience in the brain is not proof for or against God's existence: 'Logically, I do not see how neurophysiology or neuropsychology can tell us anything about the reality or nature of the divine... One can speculate, of course, that our proclivity to have such experiences is evidence that there are 'objects' out there for that experience, but that would take us beyond what science can say.' Whether such experience be divine, or just neuronal, how else may it come about? Dr Andrew Newberg, a radiologist at the University of Pennsylvania, has has hooked subjects in deep meditation up to a SPECT machine capable of high-quality brain imaging. Predictably, the images revealed that the prefrontal cortex (the seat of attention) illuminated. However another area, the superior parietal lobe, correspondingly darkened. The latter - also known as the brain's 'orientation association area' - is responsible for handling data about space and time, and the orientation of the body in space. Deprived of data - as it is in true meditation - this region will create the perception of infinite space, and will also delete the ability to distinguish oneself from the rest of the universe. This is a sound neurological explanation for the 'cosmic oneness' so often claimed in spiritual experience. Interestingly, Newberg has got the same results from both Buddhist meditators and Franciscan nuns at prayer - and also via chanting and singing. Other scientists (many of them engaged privately in a spiritual practice) are pursuing related research into what is sometmes called 'neurotheology'. Dr Michael Persinger of Canada's Laurentian University, for example, has produced what subjects described as supernatural or out-of-body experiences by hitting them with an electromagnetic field. The field created a small electrical 'storm' in their temporal lobes. James Austin is Professor of Neurology Emeritus at the Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver - as well as Affiliate Professor of Philosophy at the University of Idaho. On top of that, he is both a lifelong Unitarian and a Buddhist practitioner. Combining all these interests, in 1998 he wrote the book Zen and the Brain. Professor Austin told The Age he believes that different parts the brain are responsible for the different aspects of spirituality - for example the loss of fear typical in spiritual experience 'is related to inhibition of the amygdala [part of the cerebellum] and its projection pathways.' The psychologist William James - a pioneer in the psychology of religion - 'documented many varieties of religious experience,' Austin said. 'I would think that a similar variety of networks, modules and pathways are involved'. Can spiritual experience lead to permanent changes in the psyche? Does the concept of 'enlightenment' - supposedly a permanent thing - have any validity? Professor Austin believes it does. 'Isolated realisations of insight-wisdom are brief, extraordinary alternate states of consciousness, followed by a reflective afterglow,' he says. 'Some brief major states can be followed by permanent trait changes. 'Enlightenment' also has another meaning - an incremental process, ongoing, that leads toward sage wisdom.' Professor Austin believes these well-known peak experiences - Zen practitioners call them satori - can 're-boot' the brain. Thereafter, old practices and mental ruts - especially self-centred ones - can make way for a more elastic, responsive and compassionate mind. David Wulff shares this sanguine view of the long-term benefits of peak experiences: 'Mystical or spiritual experiences of the striking variety are relatively uncommon, even in the lives of the great mystics, for whom such experiences may have occurred only a few times in their lives and lasted only an hour or so each time. What makes them mystics is the 'residue' of a changed outlook and commitment, if not also some enduring intimation of the greater reality they had experienced.' So perhaps some of the practices long associated with religion may yet outlive the descriptions 'spiritual' and 'mystical', and reincarnate in the scientific era simply as approaches to a better life.

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Date: Tues, Nov 27, 2001 at 01:14:28 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology Message:

I posted one of the links regarding this on Forum IV or V - probably taking a cue from Nigel and the studies he is into (didn't get much of a response from anyone tho). The original link I posted is gone unfortunately 'cuz it had some great graphics, however, the following links contain some of the same info: The God Helmet Neuromagnetic Therapy Persinger This is Your Brain on God God Module

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:36:15 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: John Macgregor Subject: Thanks, John.. Message:

Interesting article, John, and nicely written. Thanks (also for kind words re. my euphoria post). Like Jim, I would be slightly inclined to take issue with Prof Wulff's assertion that 'Logically, I do not see how neurophysiology or neuropsychology can tell us anything about the reality or nature of the divine...' As I see it, our sum knowledge of the 'divine' can only derive from the testimony / teachings of other people, or else from personal revelation. And other peoples' sum knowledge of the 'divine' derives from similar sources. Ultimately, the origins of religious belief must lie in personal experience; with the present weight of non-mystical, neurological explanations for said relevations, I don't see much causal territory over which God can preside. 'Occam's Razor', basically. Don't call in unknowns to explain a known, nor - in the term's original sense - multiply entities unnecessarily. Necessity being the operative word.. Ok, I realise you were only quoting, and I'm glad you did, but I find it slightly disconcerting how some scientists don't appear to attach relative weights to to alternative theories in the face of good evidence which, in itself, may yet prove sufficient to account for the phenomena in question. Cheers, Nige

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:48:35 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology - the original link Message:
I think the link was to a Newsweek article, originally published May 7th 2001. Just to save trawling the archives, here it is again: Mystic visions or brain circuits at work?   Religion And The Brain   In the new field of “neurotheology,” scientists seek the biological basis of spirituality. Is God all in our heads?       By Sharon Begley NEWSWEEK       May 7 issue —  One Sunday morning in March, 19 years ago, as Dr. James Austin waited for a train in London, he glanced away from the tracks toward the river Thames. The neurologist—who was spending a sabbatical year in England—saw nothing out of the ordinary: the grimy Underground station, a few dingy buildings, some pale gray sky. He was thinking, a bit absent-mindedly, about the Zen Buddhist retreat he was headed toward. And then Austin suddenly felt a sense of enlightenment unlike anything he had ever experienced. His sense of individual existence, of separateness from the physical world around him, evaporated like morning mist in a bright dawn. He saw things “as they really are,” he recalls. The sense of “I, me, mine” disappeared. “Time was not present,” he says. “I had a sense of eternity. My old yearnings, loathings, fear of death and insinuations of selfhood vanished. I had been graced by a comprehension of the ultimate nature of things.”   --- MPA NEW TEMPLATE CODE STARTS HERE --- >
			CALL IT A MYSTICAL EXPERIENCE, a spiritual moment, even a religious epiphany, if you like—but Austin will not. Rather than interpret his instant of grace as proof of a reality beyond the comprehension of our senses, much less as proof of a deity, Austin took it as “proof of the existence of the brain.” He isn’t being smart-alecky. As a neurologist, he accepts that all we see, hear, feel and think is mediated or created by the brain. Austin’s moment in the Underground therefore inspired him to explore the neurological underpinnings of spiritual and mystical experience. In order to feel that time, fear and self-consciousness have dissolved, he reasoned, certain brain circuits must be interrupted. Which ones? Activity in the amygdala, which monitors the environment for threats and registers fear, must be damped. Parietal-lobe circuits, which orient you in space and mark the sharp distinction between self and world, must go quiet. Frontal- and temporal-lobe circuits, which mark time and generate self-awareness, must disengage. When that happens, Austin concludes in a recent paper, “what we think of as our ‘higher’ functions of selfhood appear briefly to ‘drop out,’ ‘dissolve,’ or be ‘deleted from consciousness’.” When he spun out his theories in 1998, in the 844-page “Zen and the Brain,” it was published not by some flaky New Age outfit but by MIT Press. Join Sharon Begley for a Live Talk on Thursday, May 3 at noon EDT to discuss 'Neurotheology' and its theories and how they differ from what you might believe.         Since then, more and more scientists have flocked to “neurotheology,” the study of the neurobiology of religion and spirituality. Last year the American Psychological Association published “Varieties of Anomalous Experience,” covering enigmas from near-death experiences to mystical ones. At Columbia University’s new Center for the Study of Science and Religion, one program investigates how spiritual experiences reflect “peculiarly recurrent events in human brains.” In December, the scholarly Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted its issue to religious moments ranging from “Christic visions” to “shamanic states of consciousness.” In May the book “Religion in Mind,” tackling subjects such as how religious practices act back on the brain’s frontal lobes to inspire optimism and even creativity, reaches stores. And in “Why God Won’t Go Away,” published in April, Dr. Andrew Newberg of the University of Pennsylvania and his late collaborator, Eugene d’Aquili, use brain-imaging data they collected from Tibetan Buddhists lost in meditation and from Franciscan nuns deep in prayer to ... well, what they do involves a lot of neuro-jargon about lobes and fissures. In a nutshell, though, they use the data to identify what seems to be the brain’s spirituality circuit, and to explain how it is that religious rituals have the power to move believers and nonbelievers alike.	--- **** EMPTY CELL FOR SPACING ***** --- >
--- Empty cell for spacing --- >	What all the new research shares is a passion for uncovering the neurological underpinnings of spiritual and mystical experiences—for discovering, in short, what happens in our brains when we sense that we “have encountered a reality different from—and, in some crucial sense, higher than—the reality of everyday experience,” as psychologist David Wulff of Wheaton College in Massachusetts puts it.	--- Empty cell for spacing --- >	OUTSIDE OF TIME AND SPACE        What all the new research shares is a passion for uncovering the neurological underpinnings of spiritual and mystical experiences—for discovering, in short, what happens in our brains when we sense that we “have encountered a reality different from—and, in some crucial sense, higher than—the reality of everyday experience,” as psychologist David Wulff of Wheaton College in Massachusetts puts it. In neurotheology, psychologists and neurologists try to pinpoint which regions turn on, and which turn off, during experiences that seem to exist outside time and space. In this way it differs from the rudimentary research of the 1950s and 1960s that found, yeah, brain waves change when you meditate. But that research was silent on why brain waves change, or which specific regions in the brain lie behind the change. Neuroimaging of a living, working brain simply didn’t exist back then. In contrast, today’s studies try to identify the brain circuits that surge with activity when we think we have encountered the divine, and when we feel transported by intense prayer, an uplifting ritual or sacred music. Although the field is brand new and the answers only tentative, one thing is clear. Spiritual experiences are so consistent across cultures, across time and across faiths, says Wulff, that it “suggest[s] a common core that is likely a reflection of structures and processes in the human brain.”         There was a feeling of energy centered within me ... going out to infinite space and returning ... There was a relaxing of the dualistic mind, and an intense feeling of love. I felt a profound letting go of the boundaries around me, and a connection with some kind of energy and state of being that had a quality of clarity, transparency and joy. I felt a deep and profound sense of connection to everything, recognizing that there never was a true separation at all. On the Cover: Science & the Spirit A look at the relationship between religion and the brain • Religion And The Brain Is God all in our heads? A look at 'Neurotheology' and the biological basis of spirituality • Faith Is More Than A Feeling The problem with Neurotheology is that it confuses spiritual experiences with religion         That is how Dr. Michael J. Baime, a colleague of Andrew Newberg’s at Penn, describes what he feels at the moment of peak transcendence when he practices Tibetan Buddhist meditation, as he has since he was 14 in 1969. Baime offered his brain to Newberg, who, since childhood, had wondered about the mystery of God’s existence. At Penn, Newberg’s specialty is radiology, so he teamed with Eugene d’Aquili to use imaging techniques to detect which regions of the brain are active during spiritual experiences. The scientists recruited Baime and seven other Tibetan Buddhists, all skilled meditators.         TESTING FOR THE TIMELESS AND INFINITE        In a typical run, Baime settled onto the floor of a small darkened room, lit only by a few candles and filled with jasmine incense. A string of twine lay beside him. Concentrating on a mental image, he focused and focused, quieting his conscious mind (he told the scientists afterward) until something he identifies as his true inner self emerged. It felt “timeless and infinite,” Baime said afterward, “a part of everyone and everything in existence.” When he reached the “peak” of spiritual intensity, he tugged on the twine. Newberg, huddled outside the room and holding the other end, felt the pull and quickly injected a radioactive tracer into an IV line that ran into Baime’s left arm. After a few moments, he whisked Baime off to a SPECT (single photon emission computed tomography) machine. By detecting the tracer, it tracks blood flow in the brain. Blood flow correlates with neuronal activity.--- --- --- Right Col No Wrap --- --- --- ->
			Source: Newsweek         The SPECT images are as close as scientists have come to snapping a photo of a transcendent experience. As expected, the prefrontal cortex, seat of attention, lit up: Baime, after all, was focusing deeply. But it was a quieting of activity that stood out. A bundle of neurons in the superior parietal lobe, toward the top and back of the brain, had gone dark. This region, nicknamed the “orientation association area,” processes information about space and time, and the orientation of the body in space. It determines where the body ends and the rest of the world begins. Specifically, the left orientation area creates the sensation of a physically delimited body; the right orientation area creates the sense of the physical space in which the body exists. (An injury to this area can so cripple your ability to maneuver in physical space that you cannot figure the distance and angles needed to navigate the route to a chair across the room.)--- LEFT COLUMN-A --- >
			SELF AND NOT-SELF        The orientation area requires sensory input to do its calculus. “If you block sensory inputs to this region, as you do during the intense concentration of meditation, you prevent the brain from forming the distinction between self and not-self,” says Newberg. With no information from the senses arriving, the left orientation area cannot find any boundary between the self and the world. As a result, the brain seems to have no choice but “to perceive the self as endless and intimately interwoven with everyone and everything,” Newberg and d’Aquili write in “Why God Won’t Go Away.” The right orientation area, equally bereft of sensory data, defaults to a feeling of infinite space. The meditators feel that they have touched infinity.         I felt communion, peace, openness to experience ... [There was] an awareness and responsiveness to God’s presence around me, and a feeling of centering, quieting, nothingness, [as well as] moments of fullness of the presence of God. [God was] permeating my being.         This is how her 45-minute prayer made Sister Celeste, a Franciscan nun, feel, just before Newberg SPECT-scanned her. During her most intensely religious moments, when she felt a palpable sense of God’s presence and an absorption of her self into his being, her brain displayed changes like those in the Tibetan Buddhist meditators: her orientation area went dark. What Sister Celeste and the other nuns in the study felt, and what the meditators experienced, Newberg emphasizes, “were neither mistakes nor wishful thinking. They reflect real, biologically based events in the brain.” The fact that spiritual contemplation affects brain activity gives the experience a reality that psychologists and neuroscientists had long denied it, and explains why people experience ineffable, transcendent events as equally real as seeing a wondrous sunset or stubbing their toes.         PINPOINTING SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE        That a religious experience is reflected in brain activity is not too surprising, actually. Everything we experience—from the sound of thunder to the sight of a poodle, the feeling of fear and the thought of a polka-dot castle—leaves a trace on the brain. Neurotheology is stalking bigger game than simply affirming that spiritual feelings leave neural footprints, too. By pinpointing the brain areas involved in spiritual experiences and tracing how such experiences arise, the scientists hope to learn whether anyone can have such experiences, and why spiritual experiences have the qualities they do.         --- LEFT COLUMN-A --- >
			I could hear the singing of the planets, and wave after wave of light washed over me. But ... I was the light as well ... I no longer existed as a separate ‘I’ ... I saw into the structure of the universe. I had the impression of knowing beyond knowledge and being given glimpses into ALL.         That was how author Sophy Burnham described her experience at Machu Picchu, in her 1997 book “The Ecstatic Journey.” Although there was no scientist around to whisk her into a SPECT machine and confirm that her orientation area was AWOL, it was almost certainly quiescent. That said, just because an experience has a neural correlate does not mean that the experience exists “only” in the brain, or that it is a figment of brain activity with no independent reality. Think of what happens when you dig into an apple pie. The brain’s olfactory region registers the aroma of the cinnamon and fruit. The somatosensory cortex processes the feel of the flaky crust on the tongue and lips. The visual cortex registers the sight of the pie. Remembrances of pies past (Grandma’s kitchen, the corner bake shop ...) activate association cortices. A neuroscientist with too much time on his hands could undoubtedly produce a PET scan of “your brain on apple pie.” But that does not negate the reality of the pie. “The fact that spiritual experiences can be associated with distinct neural activity does not necessarily mean that such experiences are mere neurological illusions,” Newberg insists. “It’s no safer to say that spiritual urges and sensations are caused by brain activity than it is to say that the neurological changes through which we experience the pleasure of eating an apple cause the apple to exist.” The bottom line, he says, is that “there is no way to determine whether the neurological changes associated with spiritual experience mean that the brain is causing those experiences ... or is instead perceiving a spiritual reality.”         PRODUCING VISIONS        In fact, some of the same brain regions involved in the pie experience create religious experiences, too. When the image of a cross, or a Torah crowned in silver, triggers a sense of religious awe, it is because the brain’s visual-association area, which interprets what the eyes see and connects images to emotions and memories, has learned to link those images to that feeling. Visions that arise during prayer or ritual are also generated in the association area: electrical stimulation of the temporal lobes (which nestle along the sides of the head and house the circuits responsible for language, conceptual thinking and associations) produces visions.         Temporal-lobe epilepsy—abnormal bursts of electrical activity in these regions—takes this to extremes. Although some studies have cast doubt on the connection between temporal-lobe epilepsy and religiosity, others find that the condition seems to trigger vivid, Joan of Arc-type religious visions and voices. In his recent book “Lying Awake,” novelist Mark Salzman conjures up the story of a cloistered nun who, after years of being unable to truly feel the presence of God, begins having visions. The cause is temporal-lobe epilepsy. Sister John of the Cross must wrestle with whether to have surgery, which would probably cure her—but would also end her visions. Dostoevsky, Saint Paul, Saint Teresa of Avila, Proust and others are thought to have had temporal-lobe epilepsy, leaving them obsessed with matters of the spirit.         Although temporal-lobe epilepsy is rare, researchers suspect that focused bursts of electrical activity called “temporal-lobe transients” may yield mystical experiences. To test this idea, Michael Persinger of Laurentian University in Canada fits a helmet jury-rigged with electromagnets onto a volunteer’s head. The helmet creates a weak magnetic field, no stronger than that produced by a computer monitor. The field triggers bursts of electrical activity in the temporal lobes, Persinger finds, producing sensations that volunteers describe as supernatural or spiritual: an out-of-body experience, a sense of the divine. He suspects that religious experiences are evoked by mini electrical storms in the temporal lobes, and that such storms can be triggered by anxiety, personal crisis, lack of oxygen, low blood sugar and simple fatigue—suggesting a reason that some people “find God” in such moments. Why the temporal lobes? Persinger speculates that our left temporal lobe maintains our sense of self. When that region is stimulated but the right stays quiescent, the left interprets this as a sensed presence, as the self departing the body, or of God.	--- **** EMPTY CELL FOR SPACING ***** --- >
--- Empty cell for spacing --- >	Those most open to mystical experience tend also to be open to new experiences generally. They are usually creative and innovative, with a breadth of interests and a tolerance for ambiguity (as determined by questionnaire). They also tend toward fantasy, notes David Wulff ...	--- Empty cell for spacing --- >	I was alone upon the seashore ... I felt that I ... return[ed] from the solitude of individuation into the consciousness of unity with all that is ... Earth, heaven, and sea resounded as in one vast world encircling harmony ... I felt myself one with them.        Is an experience like this one, described by the German philosopher Malwida von Meysenburg in 1900, within the reach of anyone? “Not everyone who meditates encounters these sorts of unitive experiences,” says Robert K.C. Forman, a scholar of comparative religion at Hunter College in New York City. “This suggests that some people may be genetically or temperamentally predisposed to mystical ability.” Those most open to mystical experience tend also to be open to new experiences generally. They are usually creative and innovative, with a breadth of interests and a tolerance for ambiguity (as determined by questionnaire). They also tend toward fantasy, notes David Wulff, “suggesting a capacity to suspend the judging process that distinguishes imaginings and real events.” Since “we all have the brain circuits that mediate spiritual experiences, probably most people have the capacity for having such experiences,” says Wulff. “But it’s possible to foreclose that possibility. If you are rational, controlled, not prone to fantasy, you will probably resist the experience.”         MEASURING SPIRITUAL FORCE        In survey after survey since the 1960s, between 30 and 40 percent or so of those asked say they have, at least once or twice, felt “very close to a powerful, spiritual force that seemed to lift you out of yourself.” Gallup polls in the 1990s found that 53 percent of American adults said they had had “a moment of sudden religious awakening or insight.” Reports of mystical experience increase with education, income and age (people in their 40s and 50s are most likely to have them).         Yet many people seem no more able to have such an experience than to fly to Venus. One explanation came in 1999, when Australian researchers found that people who report mystical and spiritual experiences tend to have unusually easy access to subliminal consciousness. “In people whose unconscious thoughts tend to break through into consciousness more readily, we find some correlation with spiritual experiences,” says psychologist Michael Thalbourne of the University of Adelaide. Unfortunately, scientists are pretty clueless about what allows subconscious thoughts to pop into the consciousness of some people and not others. The single strongest predictor of such experiences, however, is something called “dissociation.” In this state, different regions of the brain disengage from others. “This theory, which explains hypnotizability so well, might explain mystical states, too,” says Michael Shermer, director of the Skeptics Society, which debunks paranormal phenomena. “Something really seems to be going on in the brain, with some module dissociating from the rest of the cortex.” Newsweek On Air: God and the Brain         THE NEURAL BASIS FOR RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE        That dissociation may reflect unusual electrical crackling in one or more brain regions. In 1997, neurologist Vilayanur Ramachandran told the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience that there is “a neural basis for religious experience.” His preliminary results suggested that depth of religious feeling, or religiosity, might depend on natural—not helmet-induced—enhancements in the electrical activity of the temporal lobes. Interestingly, this region of the brain also seems important for speech perception. One experience common to many spiritual states is hearing the voice of God. It seems to arise when you misattribute inner speech (the “little voice” in your head that you know you generate yourself) to something outside yourself. During such experiences, the brain’s Broca’s area (responsible for speech production) switches on. Most of us can tell this is our inner voice speaking. But when sensory information is restricted, as happens during meditation or prayer, people are “more likely to misattribute internally generated thoughts to an external source,” suggests psychologist Richard Bentall of the University of Manchester in England in the book “Varieties of Anomalous Experience.”         Stress and emotional arousal can also interfere with the brain’s ability to find the source of a voice, Bentall adds. In a 1998 study, researchers found that one particular brain region, called the right anterior cingulate, turned on when people heard something in the environment—a voice or a sound—and also when they hallucinated hearing something. But it stayed quiet when they imagined hearing something and thus were sure it came from their own brain. This region, says Bentall, “may contain the neural circuits responsible for tagging events as originating from the external world.” When it is inappropriately switched on, we are fooled into thinking the voice we hear comes from outside us.         Even people who describe themselves as nonspiritual can be moved by religious ceremonies and liturgy. Hence the power of ritual. Drumming, dancing, incantations—all rivet attention on a single, intense source of sensory stimulation, including the body’s own movements. They also evoke powerful emotional responses. That combination—focused attention that excludes other sensory stimuli, plus heightened emotion—is key. Together, they seem to send the brain’s arousal system into hyperdrive, much as intense fear does. When this happens, explains Newberg, one of the brain structures responsible for maintaining equilibrium—the hippocampus—puts on the brakes. It inhibits the flow of signals between neurons, like a traffic cop preventing any more cars from entering the on-ramp to a tied-up highway.         ‘SOFTENING OF THE BOUNDARIES OF THE SELF’        The result is that certain regions of the brain are deprived of neuronal input. One such deprived region seems to be the orientation area, the same spot that goes quiet during meditation and prayer. As in those states, without sensory input the orientation area cannot do its job of maintaining a sense of where the self leaves off and the world begins. That’s why ritual and liturgy can bring on what Newberg calls a “softening of the boundaries of the self”—and the sense of oneness and spiritual unity. Slow chanting, elegiac liturgical melodies and whispered ritualistic prayer all seem to work their magic in much the same way: they turn on the hippocampus directly and block neuronal traffic to some brain regions. The result again is “blurring the edges of the brain’s sense of self, opening the door to the unitary states that are the primary goal of religious ritual,” says Newberg.         Researchers’ newfound interest in neurotheology reflects more than the availability of cool new toys to peer inside the working brain. Psychology and neuroscience have long neglected religion. Despite its centrality to the mental lives of so many people, religion has been met by what David Wulff calls “indifference or even apathy” on the part of science. When one psychologist, a practicing Christian, tried to discuss in his introductory psych book the role of faith in people’s lives, his publisher edited out most of it—for fear of offending readers. The rise of neurotheology represents a radical shift in that attitude. And whatever light science is shedding on spirituality, spirituality is returning the favor: mystical experiences, says Forman, may tell us something about consciousness, arguably the greatest mystery in neuroscience. “In mystical experiences, the content of the mind fades, sensory awareness drops out, so you are left only with pure consciousness,” says Forman. “This tells you that consciousness does not need an object, and is not a mere byproduct of sensory action.” Newsweek.MSNBC.com Click on a section below for more news: • National News • International News • Business & Money • Technology & Health • Lifestyle & Family • Entertainment • Opinion • Live Talk Lineup         For all the tentative successes that scientists are scoring in their search for the biological bases of religious, spiritual and mystical experience, one mystery will surely lie forever beyond their grasp. They may trace a sense of transcendence to this bulge in our gray matter. And they may trace a feeling of the divine to that one. But it is likely that they will never resolve the greatest question of all—namely, whether our brain wiring creates God, or whether God created our brain wiring. Which you believe is, in the end, a matter of faith.         With Anne Underwood                © 2001 Newsweek, Inc.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:01:05 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology Message:

Interesting article but nothing new. The TM movement has been demystifying the effects of meditation since the 70’s. Today they teach only about decreased blood lactate and increased galvanic skin responses and alpha and theta brain waves. It hasn’t seemed to have hurt them much. At last count the Maharashi was worth about $3.5 billion U.S. IMO this is valid research and may even result in something of value. But don’t we have enough information. Don’t we have enough stuff? Don’t we have enough facts and theories? Isn’t it enough to know that certain meditation techniques work to bring about states of inner security, happiness, an increased sense of identity and awareness? Do we always have to try to figure everything out? Deputy “the Luddite-Buddhist” Dog

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:49:35 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Typically thoughtless post, Dog Message:

Dog, You really disappoint me. Do you ever think about what you're saying? TM trumpets the physical responses of their meditation. BFD. The issue here isn't what happens to your blood pressure but how does it work. Get it? Finally, you ask, do we always have to fifure stuff out? That's why you've read all those books, Dog.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 16:32:35 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Deputy Dog Subject: Figuring things out... Message:

Interesting article but nothing new. The TM movement has been demystifying the effects of meditation since the 70’s. Today they teach only about decreased blood lactate and increased galvanic skin responses and alpha and theta brain waves. It hasn’t seemed to have hurt them much. At last count the Maharashi was worth about $3.5 billion U.S. IMO this is valid research and may even result in something of value. But don’t we have enough information. Don’t we have enough stuff? Don’t we have enough facts and theories? Isn’t it enough to know that certain meditation techniques work to bring about states of inner security, happiness, an increased sense of identity and awareness? Do we always have to try to figure everything out? Deputy “the Luddite-Buddhist” Dog --- If you don't figure things out for yourself, Dep, you can easily end up stuck in a cult belief system for a couple of decades longer than is strictly necessary. As to 'The TM movement has been demystifying the effects of meditation since the 70’s.' It is true that the Mahararishi cult has encouraged research into meditation, but such studies are hardly objective. All - to my knowledge - have been carried out by TM practitioners, and few, if any, have been independently replicated. Their whole purpose appears to be not so much 'demystifying' TM, so much as providing scientific 'proof' of their product. Hence one more fraudulent god-man with a zillion in the bank. Heard of the 'Maharishi effect', ie. the one where x percent of a city's population meditates and the crime rates go down...?! Researched, published somewhere or other but never replicated. Full of wishful / magical thinking and so devoid of proper experimental controls, it is not worth the time of day - totally laughable, in fact - unless of course, you are a cult member. 'What is required is not the will to believe, but the desire to find out' (Bertrand Russell).

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:12:15 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Figuring things out... Message:

I think it's important to look to science for explanations for experiences which are inexplicable by laypeople. For instance, I have had experiences within the cult in association with meditation and darshan which plagued me because I couldn't explain why these things happened. This lack of information caused me to hang on to the Maharajism cult for much longer than needed. So, in that regard, I am grateful for the scientific talk here. It stimulates my thought processes which have for too long been stifled by my ''practice'' of k and my ''worship'' of m, which, logically has no basis in reality. I especially like the Bertrand Russell quote: ''What is required is not the will to believe, but the desire to find out.'' Thanks to all for your input here. Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 23:45:31 (EST) From: Dr. Ruth Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Figuring things out... Message:

I think it's important to look to science for explanations for experiences which are inexplicable by laypeople. For instance, I have had experiences within the cult in association with meditation and darshan which plagued me because I couldn't explain why these things happened. This lack of information caused me to hang on to the Maharajism cult for much longer than needed. So, in that regard, I am grateful for the scientific talk here. It stimulates my thought processes which have for too long been stifled by my ''practice'' of k and my ''worship'' of m, which, logically has no basis in reality. I especially like the Bertrand Russell quote: ''What is required is not the will to believe, but the desire to find out.'' Thanks to all for your input here. Cynthia --- Cynthia, having a scientific explanation does not negate the value of an experience. What it will do is separate the mumbo jumbo voodoo caca from the actual jism. 'the proof of the pudding is in the flatulence' Mata Ji

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:44:06 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Well said, as usual Nigel (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 16:38:06 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Thnaks Nig, when you figure it all out let me know [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:21:07 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: It's fun to figure things out... Message:

and besides Dog, one-size might not fit all. If we understand the science underlying the meditative experience we should be able to devise methods for anyone to have this experience. And I'm thinking of people like me for whom the techniques of 'Knowledge' did NOT work. In fact, because of brain research, many such devices and methodologies exist to help people have this experience. Just think what Rawat's millions might have produced had he supported research in this area instead of pissing it away on luxuries for himself and his family.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 17:01:38 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: It's fun to figure things out... Message:

and besides Dog, one-size might not fit all. If we understand the science underlying the meditative experience we should be able to devise methods for anyone to have this experience. And I'm thinking of people like me for whom the techniques of 'Knowledge' did NOT work. In fact, because of brain research, many such devices and methodologies exist to help people have this experience. Just think what Rawat's millions might have produced had he supported research in this area instead of pissing it away on luxuries for himself and his family. --- gerry, If Knowledge didn't work for you by all means try something else. For example, if you are athletic and find it difficult to sit still for an hour, try kung fu or tai chi. If you are scholarly, try reading Krishnamurti or vipassana. If you are emotional try chanting or singing, or an encounter group like the Forum or Subud. As far as brain research goes, the very think that is doing the research is the thing that has to go. It's a bit like the ego wanting to be present at its own funeral. True humility is the absence of anyone to be proud. When we let go of everything we can have everything. Happiness is the spaciousness of non-wanting, not getting what you want. That's all in time. What you want will change, and you the wanter, will also change. IMO happiness comes when we stop constantly taking care of business and just kick back and take a breather. Poke out through the top and do nothing for a while. You are asking too much from the mind. It has its limits. Deputy 'the high-tech Luddite' Dog

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:55:31 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: ***DOG'S GIVING SATSANG*** Message:

Gather round, everybody. Dog's explaining the secrets of the universe. Here's a guy who pretends to have no fixed ideology. Yet he comes up with completely inane, albeit classic, spiritual tripe like this: As far as brain research goes, the very think that is doing the research is the thing that has to go. It's a bit like the ego wanting to be present at its own funeral. If anyone Dog knows is ever smitten with a brain injury, Dog'll be the first one clambouring all over the doctors to help. Of course they'll be unable to do anything were it not for the burgeoning wealth of brain science Dog scoffs at. But Dog doesn't have to qorry about such hypocrisy. He's spiritual.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:07:28 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: ***DOG'S GIVING SATSANG*** Message:

Gather round, everybody. Dog's explaining the secrets of the universe. Here's a guy who pretends to have no fixed ideology. Yet he comes up with completely inane, albeit classic, spiritual tripe like this: As far as brain research goes, the very think that is doing the research is the thing that has to go. It's a bit like the ego wanting to be present at its own funeral. If anyone Dog knows is ever smitten with a brain injury, Dog'll be the first one clambouring all over the doctors to help. Of course they'll be unable to do anything were it not for the burgeoning wealth of brain science Dog scoffs at. But Dog doesn't have to qorry about such hypocrisy. He's spiritual. --- Jim, Am I explaining the secrets of the universe or merely engaging in a philosophical discussion on a website? Perhaps you'd prefer it if I was perpetually whining and complaining. And spiritual tripe or classical Buddhism? Good question? Did you know that Buddhism had an immediate and dramatic civilizing influence on the world. Millions around the world find peace and comfort in prajna and sunyata, i.e intuitive wisdom and emptiness. You are so stuck in your story I don't think you'll ever get out. Too bad! To put all your eggs in onee basket like that. Oh well. Would you like to hear more spiritual tripe from Jesus this time? He said, 'What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul,' i.e. that inner connection with a higher power. You can be the greatest scientist in the world but, IMO, without that connection, it ain't worth jack! The child is father of the man. Thanks for letting me pontificate Jim. Deputy Dog

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:29:03 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Don't forget 'A Stitch in Time' Message:

You're lost, Dog. The knife's dull. Get it? Dull. So many, many things just fly over your head here. Oh well is right.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 22:41:36 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: I once was lost, but now I'm found! Message:

Jim, I used to get pissed of at your answers, and I now see that you just don't get it. I've done the whole intellectual trip, and found it dead. Get it? Joyless! Just a bunch of stuffed shirts puffed up with their own importance. Egomaniacs in love with the sound of their own voice. Mind robots, totally enslaved by their mental conditioning. Fossilized into fixed habits of thought. I value Knowledge and the space it provides. Apparently this really seems to bother you.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 23:08:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: What about my question? Message:

Back to what I asked you earlier which you didn't answer. Say one of your loved ones suffered a terrible brain malady, completely affecting his or her cognitive function and that the only hope of recovery depended on cutting edge neuroscience. You'd be down on your knees begging these egomanical mind robots to work their magic, now wouldn't you? Or would you simply stick your thumbs in your ears?

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:19:03 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: It's fun to figure things out... Message:

Dep, you said, '...IMO happiness comes when we stop constantly taking care of business and just kick back and take a breather. Poke out through the top and do nothing for a while.....' So tell me, for HOW LONG are you gonna kick back and do nothing? I figured the number of years I spent 'doing nothing' was quite enough. The average PWK has probably 'kicked back' quite enough for an entire lifetime. You said, '...As far as brain research goes, the very think that is doing the research is the thing that has to go....' What.... the 'brain' has got to go? It's the thing doing the research, so that 'must' be what you meant. Don't worry, your brain will 'go' soon enough (like when you croak, for example). In the meantime, why not do something with it...... Like THINKING and researching, for a change. It reminds me of a quote, '...now I lay me down to sleep in cold, crystalline patterns....' But, until then.... I take 'thinking,' if you please!

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 21:45:06 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: New Age Redneck Subject: My answer Mr. Redneck Message:

HOW LONG are I gonna kick back and do nothing? About an hour a day.

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:43:56 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Nigel's post on 'divine' experiences? Message:

Where is it ? Would you repost it ? Thanks JM

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 04:53:18 (EST) From: PatC - here it is Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: I made a copy - it was so good Message:

Euphoria and the ‘darshan rush’ ‘Euphoria’ is a great word. My dictionary defines it as meaning ‘well-being’, but its popular use implies more than that, I think. Most people would call to mind an overwhelming state of well-being or pleasant sensation, be it only temporarily overwhelming. Euphoria is a bit like ‘joy’ or ‘bliss’, but can be equally applied to adjusted physiological states as to psychological or emotional ones (though I do not believe any one of these can manifest in the absence of the other two). Junkies and winos experience euphoria, as do coffee drinkers, nicotine addicts, lovers and kids on Christmas morning. I remember during a phase of heavy computer addiction (years before email or forum addiction had been invented), the sensations I felt after a period of abstinence when I sat down at a TV monitor and switched on the trusty Commodore 64. Before loading the tape drive, there were already these all-consuming sensations of pleasure, absorption, satisfaction... euphoria, basically. (Discovering the joys of computer programming was another factor in my exiting the cult - one I forgot to mention in my ‘Journeys’ post, but very important.at the time.) I heard on the radio today about the way kids with cancer, after chemotherapy, require far fewer pain-killers if you give them computer-games to absorb themselves in. Absorption is itself a route to stress-relief and physiological well-being. It is the main factor involved in the enjoyment if hypnosis and meditative processes. Or as a healthy, Jesus-conditioned teenager, I was press-ganged along to some disturbingly manipulative Billy Graham movies. When the great lecturn-thumper finished his sermonising and the guilt-ridden born-agains edged their way up front to invite the Son of Man into their ventricles, tear-stained and shiny eyed as any dew-plucked premie, post-darshan - or Heaven’s Gater ready to embark (…as radiant as sozzled scousers when the Reds seize another football trophy, or whatever...), well, that’s what I mean by euphoria… And you can watch it spreading. In large-group situations, euphoria is contagious - at Nurnberg rallies, dangerously so. Make no mistake, those Nazi gatherings were joyful experiences. NB: I am not talking about so-called ‘mass hysteria’ with its connotations of collective frenzied, whipped-up emotions. Nothing like; Euphoria is mellow and beautiful; the euphoria of fascists no less euphoric. (Anyone remember the film Cabaret and that moment in the park and singing ‘Tomorrow Belongs to Me’ before it starts to get a bit creepy…? Yikes – I love that song…) Euphoria is a commonplace human capacity and response, as much so as sadness, anger or pain. It comes built-in and only needs triggering. Find a vacant pitch in the euphoria-service-providers’ market and your future is assured. This is as true for motivational consultants and Inner-Pathers as for whisky-bootleggers and drug-runners. But at least with the latter examples you understand, more-or-less, what you are buying. So where is all this going? Well, there are two basic points I wanted to make.. Lower down you can read this exchange between Jim and ‘Mr Williams’. Jim wrote: …I ran upstairs to tell my Lord that and then it happened. He looked at me, quite nonchalantly, and two things occurred simultaneously: my heart broke in profound awakened joy. Here was my own creator looking at me, none but me, for a fleeting moment. It was amazing. The other thing that happened was you, Mr. Mind, told me in no uncertain terms, louder and clearer than you ever had before in all the nights I'd sat in satsang, all my many prayer-filled meditations, that this was all bullshit. You were so damned clear then, Mr. Mind. I'm sorry I couldn't listen to you...[my emphasis] And Mr Williams’ reply…? So you eventually chose, and owned, 'this is all bullshit' over profound joy. Whatever. I chose differently. Can you just take that in without a snarling response? I am not sure what Mr Williams means by ‘just take that in’. He imparts no new or surprising information about his cult beliefs. We have been there and worn our ‘Profound Joy’ t-shirts until they faded and frayed. He should ask instead just who has been taken in here…? Has he, perhaps, ignored the thrust of Jim’s post and overreacted to the word ‘bullshit’(?) Always painful to hear if applied to your adored Master - or other significant loved one - but appropriate in the context. After all, this was only Jim’s Mr Mind talking, and probably talking the same language as Mr Williams’ Mr Mind. By the same token, Jim’s Mr Heart ‘talks’ the same ‘language’ as Mr Williams’ Mr Heart, in that he is susceptible to the same scope of emotional responses. Fortunately exes have rejected cult dogma and tend to understand emotions for what they are. The non-drug-induced routes to euphoria are, for me, the more interesting - and euphoria describes well enough Jim’s darshan moment - in its way, a real enough happy moment. Certainly as real as my Commodore communion highs or any other euphoric episode. Choose your own… Inducing euphoria may be easy but conceptualising it is a nest of snakes. I have more than a lay interest in this area, since I am studying hypnosis at doctoral level. (Am I one of the few forum addicts who finds much of the subject mater here useful and relevant to their work?) But I will mention again something Freud said about the experience of being ‘hypnotised’ (not that I believe in either Freud’s bullshit theories or even hypnosis in the sense of it involving any special ‘trance state’). But Freud described the experience of the hypnotised subject as being similar to that of ‘being in love’. I think he was right as his description reflects pretty well the subjective reports of many hypnotic subjects. But ‘hypnosis’ is just a label, as is ‘love’, or indeed, ‘Knowledge’. Call it what you like, but when it happens, feel-good feels good. It all depends on what presses your buttons... So am I saying all euphoria is one and the same thing? Absolutely..! Neuropsychologists have nailed down the crucial biochemical processes and identified the neurotransmitters common to such states. Alas, there are no common Lords of the Universe as yet identified in the literature... That, finally - whew! - was my first point. My second, more important point I wanted to make is this: rather than whether K is OK, or good feels good, the premie’s problem lies in finding both interpretation and causal attribution for their euphoric episodes. Explanations, too, for why these experiences come and go, as they do. (Saying ‘premies keep forgetting to go inside so they need the Master to remind them is both M’s alibi, not to mention raison d’etre, but NOT an explanation.) Typical attributional problem: our premie community used to run a wholefood stall at the weekends in an indoor market. We took turns with a rota of unpaid shifts, the profits going (natch) to community funds or Marge’s ‘special projects’. As is happened, the market manager where our stall was based bore an uncanny resemblance to a certain Lord of the Universe of our parish. Although English, a bit spotty and much taller, he looked for all the world like the then long-haired Marjory, who was admittedly, also a bit spotty. But every time this market manager entered the building and you caught sight of that ‘golden glowing face’ (c. Rich Neale, 1979 BC) you would get this sudden ‘darshan rush’ of elation and recognition, followed by immediate disappointment, not to mention a little confusion. It was not even as if you consciously believed for a moment this WAS Maharaji. Rather it was just your nervous system making its classically-conditioned response. The same response, in fact, as that time I caught sight of Maharaji’s Mercedes with the man and family in it, as it drove down the lane which skirted the Holi site in Rome. (My only real-life glimpse of M.) So were both of these encounters real darshan experiences? Or were neither…? (The answer is obvious to me but I think we should be told anyway...) Associative learning – in the Pavlovian sense - has nothing to do with beliefs and desires and everything to do with conditioned physiological triggers. Since being knocked off my bike recently I have acquired an unwanted and irrational fear of traffic. There’s not much I can do about it apart from keep on dodging the cars until it wears off. This has nothing to do with my understanding of the probabilities of being hit, but one of my body’s most primitive mechanisms for looking after itself. I had a cat once, which after once being run over, would never go near a road again. Not a conscious decision it made, but a learned fear at biochemical level. And when your body associates euphoria or any kind of well-being with god-in-a-bod’s presence on this planet – so much so are similarly unable to reject those gut feelings or ‘heart’ experiences, you have big problems, premie ji...

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Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 18:29:23 (EST) From: New Age Redneck Email: None To: PatC - here it is Subject: Re: I made a copy - it was so good Message:

Nigel! I do believe in brain chemisty, I do believe in brain chemisty, I do I do I do I do! Thanks PatC for reposting this gem. It's typical, well-thought-out Nigel! :-)

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:55:32 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Thanks for this, John Message:

Again, how cool to have a trained journalist on board. I, too, have been most impressed by all these findings. And, as we know, this is really just the beginning of what promises to be an amazing field of discovery. And yes, maybe there is some fantastic way we can benefit from these brain phenomena once we understand them better. But no, I can't see how any of this is good for the belief in God. It doesn't get rid of him entirely but, like so much else in science, it sure pushes him back even further into the shadows.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 15:30:44 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology Message:

Hi John, good story. The area that I have found myself stuck on is the barriers I find in life. The buddists and meditation types actually think there IS no god, just a oneness that has qualities. It is not self-aware. Really, that is the buddist claim. Any out of body concious thing one may supposidly encounter is just a dead buddist who is somewhere on the after death wheel and is either too chickenshit to plunge into the oneness and give up his 'self' OR, for some reason that makes no sense (since it IS an unconcious oneness), the out of body buddist has more lifetimes to come back to build up enough good karma to sqeeze past whatever grid there is in order to get to the point to be able to plunge into the unconcious pool. --Kind of like showering before going swimming perhaps? Anyway, The Materialists, the only other real game in town, think conciousness sprung from matter and DNA rules the place. Unfortunately for this hopeful brand of thinking, and unfortunately for the buddists and the unconcious oneness folks, there are boundries that make no DNA sense, and rule out an unconcious oneness theory. What kind of boundies? Well, the kind that dont take a spiritual understanding of any sort to figure out. Hell, doesnt matter WHAT a person thinks, these obstacles just intrude and make short work of anyones attempt to lead a completely successful life. While my initial reaction to the boundries is regret, and the viseral feeling of looking for some kind of etherial brick to throw past the pearly gates and crash into the god's private party, I do see some reasons for the boundries. Or rather, like my days with rawat, I am coming up with excuses for the guy in charge. some of the boundries, that speak volumes, no one can go from success to success to success in life. no one can avoid problems. no one can attain a constant mental or attitude state. oh what else, I know there are more. but hell, these are enough. there is a god, he is a pisser, and not at all 'all loving'. There is a game afoot, and the playing field and the boundries are there to be seen. We can pretend otherwise, and we all do, sort of just like financial world. LOOKS like this, LOOKS like that, so many things to see as -what is happening in the financial world- but there is a real game going on, and it is the hidden one, the fiat currency wars, the chess game of the reserve currency. The one that put our boundries on us also has a game going on. jesus said, 'the devil knows not for whom he works' Not that I am into the guy, but he IS onto something there.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 11:34:14 (EST) From: berni Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology - are you really real? Message:

Hi John, What you, Dr Wulf and many others, are saying is that the tool (our brain) with which we percieve ourselves and the world is not a reliable tansmitter of information. It can distort reality and even present us with a complete illusion which is, to our senses, indistinguishable from real perceptions. I don't doubt this, and the varying perceptions of reality I have experienced back up the theory - or does it? If I can't believe what my senses, emotions or feelings are telling me - isn't this theory just one of many possible interpretations made to seem plausible through stimulation of certain chemicals in my brain? Am I inspired or just experiencing the effect of those mushrooms on toast I had for supper? Could I be mistaken in my perception of what life is all about? I was wrong at least one time before when I chose to believe that by practicing K I would eventually achieve my true potential, I suppose it could be happening now. What I mean to say is, if we can't trust our own experience - how do we know what, if anything, is real and as a result adjust our behaviour to make the most of our lives? Questions, questions - even though I gave up being a premie over a decade ago, I still miss that feeling of having all the answers and the nice feeling it was to be able to enlighten others - even though I now know that those answers were wrong and I still feel terribly guilty about misleading those I brought to knowledge. berni

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 07:16:07 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology Message:

Thanks for that, although how anyone could think that there weren't at least physical corollaries for those experiences is beyond me. Thought this section was especially pertinent. Professor Austin believes it does. 'Isolated realisations of insight-wisdom are brief, extraordinary alternate states of consciousness, followed by a reflective afterglow,' he says. 'Some brief major states can be followed by permanent trait changes. 'Enlightenment' also has another meaning - an incremental process, ongoing, that leads toward sage wisdom.' Professor Austin believes these well-known peak experiences - Zen practitioners call them satori - can 're-boot' the brain. Thereafter, old practices and mental ruts - especially self-centred ones - can make way for a more elastic, responsive and compassionate mind. David Wulff shares this sanguine view of the long-term benefits of peak experiences: 'Mystical or spiritual experiences of the striking variety are relatively uncommon, even in the lives of the great mystics, for whom such experiences may have occurred only a few times in their lives and lasted only an hour or so each time. What makes them mystics is the 'residue' of a changed outlook and commitment, if not also some enduring intimation of the greater reality they had experienced.' So perhaps some of the practices long associated with religion may yet outlive the descriptions 'spiritual' and 'mystical', and reincarnate in the scientific era simply as approaches to a better life. Couple of small points. Think you've been infected unconsciously by mr rawat though. A large percentive of those who went on the eastern route completely reject the god concept. Buddhists, taoists - the shamanic route doesn't really have much truck with that either. On a slightly different tack, those experiences can be triggered by other events too, intense life experiences, especially of the life and death variety, but also chemikal/music/arts routes can also trigger those states. As someone who is still well up for altered states, although mostly of the non-chemical variety at the mo, and has now spent ten years around various house scenes I've come across a number people drifting into the conceptual territory you mention, but without the baggage of religion. Their take on it is very different, and much more interesting than the duality model of reality that most hindu based routes go down. Because they avoid the duality route, their social connectivity is enhanced because of less 'separation'. Out of this has evolved an agreement on loose parameters about the impoirtance of good 'attitude'. It's not tight, but it is agreed right through their very different communities. And it is exactly this that is missing in the premie 'community' of individual practitioners.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 03:53:39 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: Neurotheology - William James Message:

Now I could kick myself that I preferred reading the novelist Henry James to his brother William the psychologist who wrote ''Varieties of Religious Experience'' 100 hundred years ago. Here's a fairly good summary of James' work: Biological Consciousness and the Experience of the Transcendent: William James and American Functional Psychology Thanks for posting your article, John.

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 14:01:40 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: PatC Subject: Sorry, one more try Message:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/Mind/James.html [ Biological Consciousness ]

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 07:26:14 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: PatC Subject: bad link Pat Message:

put the address, would u? Love u

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:00:50 (EST) From: Tim G Email: None To: CW Subject: Stick to the point. nt Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 05:09:47 (EST) From: Tim G Email: None To: Tim G Subject: I'm talking to CW Message:

You never address the meat of people's objections but fritter around the outside with wishy washy rubbish. It leads to the obvious inference that you cannot or will not face questioning your adherence to the cult (common syndrome with premies). What possible reason can there be for following a get rich Hindu business man with a naive line in platitudes, a totalitarian approach to his followers (read disdain) and a philosophy of 'do as I say not as I do'? Are you afraid to face yourself (the only master and the only pupil) or just content to hide behind daddy's coat tails?

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Date: Sun, Nov 25, 2001 at 12:14:38 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Tim G Subject: dat ol' weasy be gwain [nt] Message:

[nt]

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