Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 12, 2002 To: Jan 18, 2002 Page: 5 of: 5


Jim -:- RJ's fundraiser, LAX, late 80's. Anyone? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:03:51 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Sorry, no, I wasn't there -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 04:30:56 (EST)
__ janet -:- Re: RJ's fundraiser, LAX, late 80's.sorry -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:26:52 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: RJ's fundraiser, LAX, late 80's.sorry -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:10:56 (EST)

Pullaver -:- Saviors: Self-delusion, Fraud or . . . -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:49:36 (EST)
__ janet -:- Re: Saviors: Self-delusion, Fraud or . . . -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:19:20 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Morality/Religion -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:39:40 (EST)
__ Lesley -:- Redemption for the Jews -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:24:02 (EST)

Jethro -:- An interesting link -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:31:43 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Records records -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 08:34:39 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- Re: Records records -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:31:16 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Recognise this? (barf-bag required) -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:44:35 (EST)

Jethro -:- -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:30:21 (EST)

Disculta -:- Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 02:27:56 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:12:01 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Premies messed up propagation???? -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 14:58:41 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- That's where you went wrong, Dog -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:57:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Maharaji was DLM - no confusion [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:22:33 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Re: Premies messed up propagation???? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:32:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thanks for the compliment Patrick [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:36:09 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Also, Glen Whittaker/George Blodwell -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:48:11 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Also, Glen Whittaker/George Blodwell -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 00:32:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Welcome back to planet Earth -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 11:25:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Wow, Bai Ji -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:30:15 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Fraternal, Saturnal, and Cisternal greetings. -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:30:43 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- yeah, AJW, you be bad -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 16:09:04 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- eDrek, how come it was dark? -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 10:26:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- oh, the tattoo -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 13:53:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- It was Bambi. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:48:33 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- in the defense of Maharaji... -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:23:22 (EST)
__ __ such -:- the nice thing... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:16:57 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Drekko -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:43:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- thanks, Discult -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 20:42:08 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Great stuff, eDrek! Ditto, Amen! [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:32:06 (EST)
__ housemother -:- Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:21:58 (EST)
__ __ ExP -:- Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 17:38:35 (EST)
__ __ __ housemom -:- more about this soon (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 00:20:33 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Housemother... -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:06:20 (EST)
__ __ __ housemother -:- Re: Hi Housemother... -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:18:35 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:56:04 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I'd like a copy of Passages -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:37:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- You will love it! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:53:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Joe...about that video -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:09:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes Maam nt -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 23:02:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Okay, then, Sir...:):) [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:43:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- A funny idea about the video -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:35:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Cracking me up! (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:44:54 (EST)
__ __ __ housemother -:- email -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:05:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi housemom -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 16:21:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ housemother -:- Re: Hi housemom -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 17:04:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Please do -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:15:56 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Does Gallwey talk about his breakdown?? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:06:17 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Does Gallwey talk about his breakdown? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:54:00 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Does Gallwey talk about his breakdown? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:51:54 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- The Inner Game of lying -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:27:17 (EST)
__ janet -:- new technique-talk back to the videos -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:42:57 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Thanks for the report from the trenches -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:07:58 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Videos: misrepresentation and mind fuck -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:28:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Stay Tuned.... -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:08:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Isn't it amazing? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:26:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Isn't it amazing? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:50:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- The morning after -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:09:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- You might need a GuRU486 pill ~) [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:20:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: The morning after -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:01:05 (EST)

Marianne -:- Derek Harper -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 21:50:01 (EST)
__ McDuck -:- Re: Derek Harper -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 21:19:15 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Derek Harper -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 21:50:18 (EST)
__ bill -:- Marianne -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 01:56:04 (EST)
__ __ Information -:- Re: Marianne -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:33:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Information -:- Or... -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:40:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Church Lady -:- That's special! Do his associates know... -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 08:46:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh yes, people have called Jacobs -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 11:55:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- thanks. [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:25:02 (EST)
__ Ddermot -:- Maybe one of these Marianne -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 23:37:29 (EST)

suchabanana -:- REVELATION of da lil swami: -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 21:17:39 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: REVELATION of da lil swami: -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 02:31:15 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Shit, What does this mean? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 22:05:15 (EST)
__ __ such -:- r.e. What does this mean?? -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 04:00:33 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- That reminds me -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 08:08:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ such -:- there are more out there, too -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:50:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Please tell me NOW!!! -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:19:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: patience, please -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 14:37:07 (EST)

Bodhi -:- Joe Does this Help? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 17:52:33 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Yes, thank you (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:21:40 (EST)

housemother -:- thanks to all and a word to new exes -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:00:22 (EST)
__ cq -:- The 'Goo'!!!! Hahahahaa! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:58:19 (EST)
__ __ Marshall -:- Re: The 'Goo'!!!! Hahahahaa! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 16:55:34 (EST)
__ Anandaji -:- Re: thanks to all and a word to new exes -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:52:40 (EST)
__ __ housemother -:- You guys are the reason I was a premie -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 15:45:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Suzie -:- Terrific post -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:05:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Mirror -:- Amen [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:01:42 (EST)
__ janet -:- the anxiety attacks -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:26:02 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: the anxiety attacks -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 15:55:23 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Why disappear? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:42:54 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Hi, Housemother -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:42:11 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Love you Housemom -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:22:05 (EST)
__ __ Tim G -:- Thanx Housemum+Joe -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:47:52 (EST)

The Maharaji of Malibu -:- and your career -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 11:30:42 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: and your career -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:32:32 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: and your career -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:27:36 (EST)
__ __ such -:- i.e.'the knowledge you can't get in college [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 18:10:55 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Way to go, Vicki! -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:27:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Way to go, Vicki! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 02:50:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Peg -:- Is this a new technique?OT -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 05:45:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Is this a new technique?OT -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 06:30:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- would love to hear if you feel inclined -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:48:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Way to go, Vicki! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:25:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Here! Here! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 06:40:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Too funny -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:23:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Too funny...exactly... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:53:00 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- Yes but.... -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:20:28 (EST)
__ duh! -:- Re: and your career -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:05:49 (EST)
__ Marshall -:- the goo blew it -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:03:33 (EST)

Jim -:- A question for all new exes -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:42:40 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Someone should write a book! -:- Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 05:53:12 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Re: A question for all new exes -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 22:07:17 (EST)
__ Mirror -:- Impossible to leave? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 07:19:20 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Good question -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:55:11 (EST)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- What's more -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:48:01 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Impossible to leave? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:20:57 (EST)
__ Anandaji -:- Re: A question for all new exes -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:25:11 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: A question for all new exes -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:59:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Gail -:- To Steve about leaving -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 20:02:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: To Steve about leaving -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 03:17:38 (EST)

Joe -:- The Cost of Amaroo -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:18:11 (EST)
__ Moll of Mole -:- Re: The Cost of Amaroo -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:52:16 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks Moll -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 11:12:02 (EST)
__ Boadicea -:- Re: Quoted B not me! -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:13:06 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks Bo, for correction (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 11:22:19 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- EPO and Archives -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:26:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Thanks John, I'll get the hang of it(nt) -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:19:40 (EST)
__ __ Moll of Mole -:- 'B' is my boyfriend not Boadicea NT -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:54:13 (EST)
__ housemother -:- Re: The Cost of Amaroo -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:00:15 (EST)
__ __ housemother -:- and another thing -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:42:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Re: and another thing -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:20:09 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:03:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: RJ's fundraiser, LAX, late 80's. Anyone?
Message:
I'm sorry to keep bringing this up but isn't there a single person reading this forum that was at Raja Ji's fundraiser for one of M's planes, at a hotel (can't recall which) by the Los Angeles Airport in the late 80's? I ask because that's the one I keep mentioning where I argued with him about M's telling us he was divine, setting up his ashrams on that basis and pressuring us to stay there. There were hundreds of people there. I was sitting in the very back row with Ron Bator and Mike Smith. The hotel was on between the airport and LaCienaga on the south side of the street. I'd never heard that kind of dialogue with either M or any of his family and certainly never one that went on as it did for a few minutes at least. Surely someone in L.A. then would recall. No?
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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 04:30:56 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, no, I wasn't there
Message:
And that little situation you created, Jim Heller, aka, troublemaker, did not even filter back to Washington, DC. Which, when I think of it, surprises me. My husband was still in the cult at that time and he never mentioned hearing about a freaked out premie, in their mind, creating a disturbance like that.
I wonder, since it never happened while I was attending events, if there are any other accounts of people asking difficult questions to which there are no honest answers since everything has to processed via cult speak.

Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:26:52 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: RJ's fundraiser, LAX, late 80's.sorry
Message:
I wasn't in los angeles then, Jim. I was in denver. but i sure would have liked to have witnessed it.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:10:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: RJ's fundraiser, LAX, late 80's.sorry
Message:
I wish I had been there to watch you question the Raj, Jim.

Talk about a release.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:49:36 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: pullaver@yahoo.ca
To: All
Subject: Saviors: Self-delusion, Fraud or . . .
Message:
megalomania?

Many ex's, having been put through the ringer with m, have by logical extension concluded that all purported avatars, perfect masters, Lords, and sundry Sons of God are charlatans; or at least self-deluded would-be conduits for an imagined, supreme, all-knowing, power. This has variously been described on the forum as primitive, pre-scientific, magical thinking or new-agey, platitude and cliche-ridden magical thinking.

It could be argued that much of the world's sense of morality came out what eventually became religions. Well, that and Greek philosophers. While it is easy to argue that it is not very likely that any guiding ethics or morality could ever develop from Maharajism, there is moral and ethical outrage.

I am not condoning physical violence, but at least in-so-far as the Jews rejecting Jesus, perhaps there was a similar history of outrage about perceived manipulation and deception coming from one convinced of his divinity. Comments?

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:19:20 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Re: Saviors: Self-delusion, Fraud or . . .
Message:
interesting theory, but the Jews didn't reject Jesus on the basis of his own mildness in the face of his persecution, or some other stipulated/perceived failure of his to 'act like they thought the messiah should act'.
there has been ample argument about the Jews' expectations being that the one they referred to as ' the messiah' and the one that they supposedly were waiting for or watching for would be a worldly leader, who was going to appear and lead them in the political or national sense, who would raise them out of obscurity, exile and general subjugation to the surrounding powers of the day. That discussion usually concludes that Jesus made no such moves, and therefore failed their preconceived notions of what The Messiah would be, and this being the case, that they shruged him off or even resented him for not doing so. Judas iscariot in particular, it is said, carried a personal belief that Jesus would display some sort of resistance and power if cornered by the Romans, and so Judas felt no fear worry about informing the Romans of his location for 30 pieces of silver, thinking that his leader would 'show em all, who's boss' until, too late, he realized that his Master was not going to make any effort to stop the events in play, and so Judas went out and hanged himself for his act of betrayal.

I contend that the Jews' rejection of Jesus originates far further back, in the Exodus. The Old Testament is very clear on the instructions they received while traveling the desert between the Red Sea and The Promised Land: on Mount Sinai, Moses was unmistakeably told 'I am the Lord, Thy God; Thou shalt have no other Gods before me'.

no graven images, no imaginary personalities, no humans, prophets, phenomena, no words to be worshipped or placed in comparable or competeing status, zero, zip, zilch.
the lord thy god is a jealous god.

I would say, offhand, that if I were fleeing ages of degrading slavery across a wasteland to an unknown destination, and a Pillar of fire by night and a pllar of smoke by day towered and moved ahead of me in that vast wilderness, moving onward and guiding me and delivering commandments written in stone to my leader, yeah, I think i would tend to go along with the rules and accept that This Guy Seems To Know What He's Talking About And Means What He Says.

Say what you will about religion, but the ones that have abided thousands or hundreds of years generally arise out of a series of astounding events that no ordinary human could do, accompanied by a list of deeds that save a mass of people from dire circumstances they couldn't have devised a solution to with common techniques, and included in the deal are clear and specific instructions that are pretty much indisputable, moral,ethical, fair and clean. And have the hallmarks of consciousness and understanding that are saner, more intelligent and sensitive than the brute animal instincts normally felt and acted upon in living creatures.

Is there a God? Will we ever know? Hard to say. But the religions that we have now, the longstanding ones, each come out of actual events that happened to a people, that they held in such awe that they recorded them and respected and revered them, handed them down thru the ages, preserved and taught from them, and attempted to live by them to the best of their abilities--and still do.

Jesus never said he was God, or greater than god. He always said he came from The Father, from Our Father, that he was sent to see to His Father's work. He never violated the commandment. he never asked anyone to place him ahead of The Lord Thy God, and only in cases of conflicting feeling do people object that he was putting himself between man and God, by saying I and my Father are One, when you see the son you are seeing the father, i am the light and the way'.

human ego would tend to atribute such statements to another human ego, using a reference point that would be familiar and understandable in everyday parlance. but there is another way to understand it, which is why Jesus used parables (pair-able's) to make the relationship something his listeners could readily compare to. In the case of the son and the father, the example of a landowner planting vineyards and entrusting the cultivation of them to gardeners and having to go elsewhere to tend to other business, it makes common sense in everyday experience that he might well send his son later to come back and see how the vineyards are being cared for, and that the son might well find affairs not to his father's liking, and let the tenants know it in powerful specificity. it is within everyone's experience that a son usually knows what his father wants, especially if he sends him to see about his property and affairs. it is not so much an egotistical thing as a known dynamic in everyone's life.
and equally pertinent to this example is that people also tend to recognize when a son goes bad, goes crooked, wasteful, dishonest, selfish, grasping, unfair, greedy, embezzles, betrays or in any other known sense, is no longer to be trusted as the owner's emissary when he comes to the vineyard and starts throwing his weight around.

which is what i think we have a case of, here, with Maharaj ji. I think the son may have at one time, early on, when the task was given him, done his father's will, but somewhere along the line, he polluted himself and corrupted the errand, and we all have come to realize it.
Now, we can open a debate as to whether the Father in question is God or Shri Hans, but in any case, the son is no longer worthy of the job, and the workers are in revolt.

And those of us with Jewish lineages are free to fall back on the Original Instructions and rue our digressions, and to embrace the old saw 'err in haste, repent at leisure'. Luckily, we live in a free will creation, where we can opt to follow the instructions and save ourselves a lot of heartache, or we can venture out into the alternatives and find out for ourselves why the rules were the better idea in the first place.

I always say, you can't be an expert until you have found out, first hand, all the ways and whys a thing DOESN'T work and can go wrong...and we ARE allowed to do it that way. Either way, we'll find out that the original rules were given for a good reason, ostensibly by The One Who Knows best in the first place.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:39:40 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Morality/Religion
Message:
I think at least in regard to Christianity, that what Jesus Christ, who apparently was a real person who did exist, taught, on which 'Christian morality' is based, about turning the other cheek, loving your neighbor, the meek shall inherit the earth, etc., came before there was a Christian religion, and it's questionable how 'moral' Christianity the religious group has been based on its history.

Plus, there are teachers and there are teachers. I have yet to hear one moral value that Maharaji has ever taught. It's all about just getting an 'experience' and loving the 'master' for supposedly giving it to you. I think that's partly why so many of us have had experiences with the immorality of premies. It's spirituality on the credit card, with those very same values. Plus, Maharaji himself is a terrible role model when it comes to morals and values, for obvious reasons, exhibiting incredible greed, and an uncarring attitude towards anyone but himself.

Just see the Atlanta training video if you want to see how little there is there, other than him saying: "it's all THE MASTER, ME, ME, ME, and don't you ever forget it, you worthless premies!"

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:24:02 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Redemption for the Jews
Message:
Good post, Pullaver. It made me think that if there were a Court of History, the Jews could state their case, that they were just trying to protect a credulous population from the Messianic insanity of a bloke who was screwed up by his suspect parentage, not stringing up the Son of God by his thumbs.

Nah, my guess is they were just insulted that Moses and Abraham were losing points!

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:31:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: An interesting link
Message:
http://lightmind.com/Impermanence/Library/knee/
[ Impermanence ]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 08:34:39 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Records records
Message:
Jethro

Very interesting indeed. Just read a few pages and happened on the following:

(copywrite acknowledged by the way)
=============================================

FROM Short Timer:

Pilgrim said: There are no 'spies' here reporting back to some centralized 'Big Brother.' If anything, we have precious little organizing energy to spare even to keep track of our active, loyal membership.

This statement by Pilgrim made me remember a curious incident during my tenure in Adidam. Once I was assigned to moving some furniture. I was moving a filing cabinet, and one of the drawers slid open. My eyes fell on a file with my name on it!

It turned out the drawer was packed with files with the names of devotees on them. I took my own file out and opened it. It contained typed reports about me, describing everything that was known about me and describing my personality as it was viewed by the persons who had written the reports. The reports included summaries as to whether I was going to be a useful member of the community and whether I was a possible physical threat to the Master. Finally, at the bottom of the reports were 'CC' marks indicating that copies of the report had gone to several different departments, including Master Da himself.

This is a true story, and I can prove it because I took the file and still have it in my possession.

We were never told that reports were being written, or files kept on us. Nor were we shown such reports, which would have been the decent thing to do. (You know, Freedom of Information Act and all that.)

And the contents of the reports were quite disturbing to read. I saw a quite distorted and prejudiced view of who I am. In thinking of this report, the word 'fascistic' comes to mind.


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FROM Free:

The community, church, fellowship, ashram, whatever it is, has been keeping records of various kinds on its devotees for years!

Haven't you ever heard about the archives? What do you think is stored in there? Just old tapes and talks? Not likely, my friend. Haven't you ever heard about the 'Old Karma' project? Not only are there files, but they contain things like letters and cards sent to the guru, assessments of individual with potential to cause trouble. Back when I was doing it, there was a special section for 'crazies'. And there were devotees who's special function it was to check up on these people from time to time to make sure they weren't getting dangerous.

Some of these people were still practicing within the church, for crying out loud.

It may not be a fascist organization, but I can't stop short of calling it a paranoid organization. Like its founder. What a surprise.

...Records are kept, and always have been, of people that have not made threats. People have been classified, categorized, rated, if you will, into categories that include labels such as 'crazy', 'possible crazy', 'angry', 'dissident', etc. Most of these people never know they've been categorized or that they're getting different treatment because of it.

Believe me, Pilgrim, this is all done under a huge cloak of secrecy. There is a group of 'trusted' devotees that has always done this job. It amazes me that the church fails to note how many of these people continue to leave and what secrets they take with them. It is a high stress position to find oneself in. Trusted, on the one hand, is an honor. It makes you feel close to the guru. It has the status of an 'intimate' and all that conveys. On the other hand, it exposes you to the inner works of the paranoia machine. There is enough paranoia to challenge the practice of a saint. My faith didn't extend that far. There, I've said it.

Best to you,
Free

================================================

Now I know I am totally paranoid (hey look at my handle!) but could it, do they, are they planning to do it? No I can't believe that the Malibu GooBooDoo or EV would ever contemplate such a thing! No I really must cast such impure doubts from my little mind :-)

Or maybe? No! No! No! - don't entertain such thoughts you frail lost former pwk...

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:31:16 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Re: Records records
Message:
well, if they do archive everything we do, they can sit over my anthrax post till they fall over dead and they're never gonna see any action onit. I rather like the idea of them wasting all that energy waiting for something that'[s never gonna happen.

who's guarding the cheese in the backstage refrigerator today???

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:44:35 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Recognise this? (barf-bag required)
Message:
The Sacred Vow of the Society of Advocates
(4th Congregation, or beginner's vow)

Beloved Bhagavan Avatar Adi Da Samraj,

Having studied and 'considered' Your Word and Leela, I recognize that Your
Divine Instruction, Demonstration, and Blessing-Transmission are an
incomparable Gift. I therefore choose to make this vow of a free and direct
devotional relationship to You as a fourth congregation member of the
Transnational Society of Advocates of the Adidam Revelation. I accept Your
Graceful Offering to live and serve as Your devotee. I understand that my
responsive relationship to You is the sacred Means whereby I am Blessed by
the Divine Freedom and Happiness that is Your own Love-Blissful Condition and
Your Supreme Gift to Your devotees. I enter into this relationship with respect
and love, knowing that it is not in any sense a conventional or worldly matter.
Rather, I understand that my relationship to You is a profound and serious
commitment that obliges me to resort to You consistently and to serve You
steadfastly and energetically. I understand that by these means I become
progressively more and more available to Your Transforming Grace.

As a fourth congregation member of the Society of Advocates, I understand that
my primary obligation is to practice Ruchira Buddha Yoga (the Yoga, or
practice, of devotional love of You, the Ruchira Buddha). I will do this by
practicing the technically 'simplest' practice of feeling-Contemplation of You, in
which I simply Invoke You, feel You, breathe You, and serve You.

You have Said, 'The technically 'simplest' practice is a profound practice.
Although it does not include all the technical details of the more elaborate
forms of practice, it is the same process and the same opportunity that I Offer
to all My devotees. I can Awaken to Myself any being who really practices the
technically 'simplest' practice. It is simply a matter of surrendering to Me, and
becoming utterly combined with Me through that devotional surrender. You
must simply do that, in direct relationship to Me, such that I am making My
connection to You.'

I also understand that my sadhana as a fourth congregation member of the
Society of Advocates is to be principally expressed through my offering of
consistent service to You, including (but not limited to) service to the
publications missions (which is the particular responsibility of all members of
the Society of Advocates), as well as a consistent monthly or regular pledge
according to my means. I promise that through this direct, energetic, and
always heartfelt service, I will do my utmost to advance Your Circumstance and
Divine World-work, guided by Your Instructions, and in cooperation with my
fellow devotees. I vow to consistently maintain and enlarge my service to You
so that I may increasingly receive and be transformed by Your Blessing-Grace.

Beloved Bhagavan Adi Da, I thank You from my heart for the Gift of this free and
most sacred relationship. I embrace You as Divine Guru, Giver of Truth and
Heart-Blessing to all beings. I bow down to You with love and devotion.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 07:30:21 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject:
Message:
An interesting link.
[ Page Link ]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 02:27:56 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable
Message:
Just spent an amazing evening with Marianne, Joe and Roger Drek watching videos of MJ. THey just left. We were all going to come online, but it got too late, what with the FASCINATION of what we were seeing!

Haven't seen or heard MJ for 17 years, and I am almost speechless. The way he talks to the premies, in the Atlanta training video, is SO demeaning, SO arrogant, condescending and... meaningless. We were screaming with laughter because he kept contradicting himself, and not in any zen koan way either. Just a kind of confused, rambling rant, with long pregnant, eye-bulging pauses to emphasize the significance of what he had just said. Except he wasn't saying anything that made any sense. He was telling people that they had messed up propagation, that they were RESPONSIBLE for bringing people to knowledge AND KEEPING THEM THERE, but that they shouldn't say anything wrong. He didn't define what was 'wrong,' just kept saying in various ways how wrong they had been how DANGEROUS it was to be wrong and various other threatening, humiliating nonsense.

You've heard this all before from Joe and others who have seen this, but really, it's true.

Before that we watched the Passages video which rewrites history (the 'sari' story). The mysterious guy who said the most insulting things (to anyone who ever lived in an ashram or devoted their lives to MJ) is TIM GALLWEY.

It was a lot of fun hanging out and squealing at the TV. Lots of times we were all ranting at once back at the screen and Joe had to rewind to make sure we caught particularly heinous bits.

In the Passages video, there wre a lot of pieces of footage from early times, and I felt a jolt of love. Those old pics which I was so programmed to adore. And he was a cute kid. I think if I were just subjected to a lot of that old stuff, I would just feel the early memories, which were mostly good. But seeing the other video, of how he is now, tuned me right in to why I left (17 years ago). He is doing the same thing, just in a more rambling and arrogant way.

I can't imagine for the life of me how people can allow themselves to be demeaned and talked down to by such a nincompoop. But I did. I think I developed a kind of habitual frisson of humiliation that I was trained by the whole conceptual devotional rap to think of as a good feeling. 'This is a sign of devotion, when I am made to feel like such an idiot I am shivering.'

Oh yes, and - after enumerating a list of contradictory and unexplained concepts - he goes on and on about how OUR concepts have brought the whole thing down.

It's really funny and highly recommended as a fun video evening to synchronize with your local team of fun-loving exes.

Nighty night.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:12:01 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable
Message:
that must have been an extraordinary evening. For a start, to meet up with those particular characters!!! and then, on top of that, to watch that shit! You all deserve medals. What should it be? the 'Extinguished Premie Order' or EPO?

I will gladly present you all with decorations.
Kelly

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 14:58:41 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Premies messed up propagation????
Message:
Sorry, I said I was going away for a while, but just couldn't let this post go by.

He (Maharaji) was telling people that they had messed up propagation, that they were RESPONSIBLE for bringing people to knowledge AND KEEPING THEM THERE, but that they shouldn't say anything wrong. He didn't define what was 'wrong,' just kept saying in various ways how wrong they had been how DANGEROUS it was to be wrong and various other threatening, humiliating nonsense.

Nonsense is right! The premies did not mess up propagation, they were simply following orders - agya.

I can remember in the winter of 1975 being asked by the DUO director to put up 20 posters. I was happy to do so, being a new premie and all, but when I read what the posters said I was genuinely taken aback. The posters said some nonsense like 'He who is without impartiality can dissolve at the lotus feet of Satgurudev.' What? What kind of bullshit was that? Wouldn't people walking down the street find concepts like 'dissolving' and 'lotus feet' completely nuts?

So I refused to put the posters up, saying that people would find them bizarre to say the least and I also said that these posters would not attract new premies, in fact probably just the opposite. And besides, I was embarrassed, anyone seeing me put up these posters would think that I was some kind of fruitcake.

I gave the posters back and said I would not post them and to get someone else. I was then told in no uncertain terms that M had approved the posters and that my refusal to put them up was evidence that I was 'in my mind.' So, I stealthily and reluctantly put these posters up, hoping that no one I knew would see me, and I felt like a real idiot for doing so.

From that point on I started thinking for myself, and fortunately for me, I made a distinction between DLM and my practice of Knowledge.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:57:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's where you went wrong, Dog
Message:
I gave the posters back and said I would not post them and to get someone else. I was then told in no uncertain terms that M had approved the posters and that my refusal to put them up was evidence that I was 'in my mind.' So, I stealthily and reluctantly put these posters up, hoping that no one I knew would see me, and I felt like a real idiot for doing so.

From that point on I started thinking for myself, and fortunately for me, I made a distinction between DLM and my practice of Knowledge.

Clearly, if Maharaji himself had indeed approved the posters, your complaint was with him, not DLM which you seem to be joining with your cult leader in conveniently scapegoating. No wonder you're so confused. What you should have done then, what you should do now 25 years later, is figure out what Maharaji actually said or did. About this, about that, about everything. Otherwise, you look like you're just hiding from the truth, rather than seeking it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:22:33 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji was DLM - no confusion [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:32:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Premies messed up propagation????
Message:
No, Rawat did. He is the cockroach in the cornflakes.

Dog, you said: ''I started thinking for myself, and fortunately for me, I made a distinction between DLM and my practice of Knowledge.''

I honestly don't care how religious you are although I don't like religion but I do hope that you can also separate Rev Rawat from K.

In fact I think you would propagate K much better than him with more respect for it's religious traditions. Not my cup of tea but I bet you would be good at it. Certainly more honest and sincere than rawat. And I bet you wouldn't get rich off it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:36:09 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks for the compliment Patrick [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:48:11 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Also, Glen Whittaker/George Blodwell
Message:
I feel somewhat vindicated because Marianne agreed with me that in the video Glen Whittaker looks like he has a really bad hairpiece. But Disculta, who actually knew Glen at one time, said his hair just looks like that, and always has. So, apologies to Glen, it may be his own hair, such as it is.

Glen, you might get George Blodwell to do your hair. Look what he did for Jodie Foster.

BTW, in the video George said that he is completely in love with Maharaji, and so is his sister, who fell in love with Maharaji after doing 8-9 months of regular meditation. The video at the end presents the proposition that if you just meditate on the techniques, you just sort of fall in love with Maharaji. It just happens. Why it never happend to me, I don't know. It must be because I was not in touch with my heart, because it was wrapped in a sari. :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 00:32:30 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Also, Glen Whittaker/George Blodwell
Message:
I 'Fell In Love with Him' first and thought he was The One from the outset.
How Fucked Up am I?
Knowledge was something I trusted that I needed to receive, because He told me that I needed this.
I couldn't give a shit about meditation.
If Maharaji said do this, I accepted his Agya as Agya (Divine Guidance, read don't argue if you know what's good for you.)
Devotion was always the great liberator in my understanding, without any DLM/EV pre conceived ideas.
I was a clean slate and the Satsang I heard and the feeling in the room forged a bond in my being that has remained unshaken untill now.
Until now.
I fully accept that I was ripe for the picking, due to my abandonment fears as a chid, and that I was needing a Father figure.
I Truly believed that He was the Superior Energy in Person, that cared for me as an individual, that understood my feelings of failure and inadequacy as I devoted my 'limited understanding' at His Lotus Feet.
I have practised Knowledge for the last 28 years consistently, regularly 1 Hr Daily, with 4 Hour stints - 2 Hours Morning 2 Hours Night not unusual.
Except during events where I would forgo sleep to practise 1 hpour and end up a basket case by the end due to fatigue.
I have had varying experiences, ranging from mediocre to seeing Golden showers of Raindrops with M's face in each one. To a Spotlight type light with no perceivable source over my head.
Wait don't get excited! None of these experiences helped me in any way except increase my 'Longing' to be with Him.
Anyway, I could have a TUMOR for all I know.
Wouldn't that be the Final laugh on me?
Oh Fuck It!
I am just so heartened to read you all and finally not feel sooo alone in all of this.
I am going to Trust Myself for a change.
My feelings.
My cry from My heart to Me.
I shall see where that gets me.
And if M is my Master and Lord, He will understand and empower me in this, Of Course.
How can the Truth not stand this questioning and Light?
Truly Yours Bai Ji.
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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 11:25:55 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Welcome back to planet Earth
Message:
I will post further to what you have said because there are many parallels to what you wrote that happened to me too. In fact all of us here on the forum. I have run out of time but no,
you are not any more fucked up than the rest of us. We were all vunerable and fell for the con; hook, line and sinker. Emphasis on VUNERABLE! And from what I know about cults, it could of happened to anyone! Including you and me.

I'll try and write later,
Take care
Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:30:15 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Wow, Bai Ji
Message:
This is a very powerful post, snuck inside this thread. Welcome to the forum.

I can relate to the father figure/abandonment complex and how it made us riper for the picking.

I can also relate strongly to the point you made about all those 'experiences' not getting you very far. When I left I came to the realization that I had been completely dis-integrated, going up into light realms and all that, and ignoring my mind, body and emotions which became quite abandoned and cranky in response.

Glad you are here and feeling supported.

love ktd

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:30:43 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Fraternal, Saturnal, and Cisternal greetings.
Message:
Hi Disculta,

Greetings from across the pond. It's good to see Latvia is still having an influence in international affairs. YOur post evoked memories of the first meetings we British based Exes we had in the old Latvian club, in London. Indeed, my West Coast lawyer and I had a knowledge review there very early one Saturday morning, administered by none other than Mahatma Jean-Michel.

Our nights in the Latvian club, and other related venues were quality time. It makes a big difference when you write to someone on the forum, if you've rolled in a gutter in Paris, got involved in gang fights at 3 am, in Oakland Ca, or merely got arrested together in London.

Yes, the personal touch makes all the difference.

Your cisternal Latvian brother, Anth the Zeltad.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 16:09:04 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: yeah, AJW, you be bad
Message:
Anth, one correction: the gang fight you allude to in Oakland at 3 a.m. was actually 3 p.m. and the fight was when you bumped into that old woman on the train after imbibing a little too much locoweed.

Get a gripe, man!

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 10:26:58 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: eDrek, how come it was dark?
Message:
Hi Roger,

If it was 3pm, how come it was dark, when we were hanging around Oakland? And where did I get that bullet hole in my shoulder from? And why did that old lady wear a leather jacket, and carry a billiard cue and pistol? And how come you changed your mind AFTER that guy had finished MY tattoo, but before he started yours?

Anth the memory gap.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 13:53:41 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: oh, the tattoo
Message:
And how come you changed your mind AFTER that guy had finished MY tattoo, but before he started yours?

I changed my mind about the tattoo after watching you getting yours because I can't love a man who cries so much as you.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:48:33 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: It was Bambi.
Message:
And how come you changed your mind AFTER that guy had finished MY tattoo, but before he started yours?

I changed my mind about the tattoo after watching you getting yours because I can't love a man who cries so much as you.


---

It was the Bambi video on the TV set above your head that was making me cry Roger. You weren't paying attention because you were lusting after Harry the Prick's Daughter, with the twelve stations of the cross tattooed across across her belly. Lucky Harry didn't notice. He was concentrating tattooing the Guru Puja 74 logo across my arse. Boy. What a night that was. Did the photos come out OK?

Anth, 'I'm a man now thanks to you.'

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:23:22 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: in the defense of Maharaji...
Message:
Oh, how humiliating it was for me to watch a video with ex's who had exited decades before I did. How I hate to think of myself as slow and not on the leading edge. I only left sometime in 1997 having endured the nonsense since 1973. One reason why I hung around so long was that I was pretty much out on the fringe, but I did go to a fair number of programs and I did live through the 90's video era. And damn if I didn't think that Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe.

Indeed, the 90's video era was a shot in the arm for the cult and for a brief moment in time before it got over organized and way too boring watching the same old mind-numbing videos again and again. There was once again a sense of community and there was even a crop of aspirants and eventually some new blood, new premies.

It certainly seemed to be a second coming for Maharaji. Hell, I even signed up as a regular donor sending money monthly. Yes, it seemed that with these rather benign and heavily edited videos that Maharaji would finally be palatable enough for the masses. Well, ok, I only thought about giving out the little introductory cards, but propagation was a real possibility. And, yes, the revision was complete and thorough and all the Hindu trappings were gone even though deep down we all knew that our Goomaraji was the Lord of the Universe. No, nothing was ever going to change that. And we kept that alive with those knowing looks and smiles.

And the videos were being shown round the world. Yes, finally it was going to happen.

But what went wrong?

Was it EPO on the Internet?

No, not really. What went wrong was that we got too much of Maharaji. Can you imagine watching the same damn videos two or three times a week? Can you imagine a Sunday marathon with 10 hours of Maharaji videos? How about Friday and Saturday night at the Maharaji videos?

Well, like I said, I was a fringe premie and I gave it a fair chance one last time and as soon as it got lamer than lame I slipped out the back door and went back to the farthest most fringe. You see I always had a problem with how boring premies can be (apologies to all who might fall into that category.) The idea of blowing an entire Sunday watching the same damn videos was not something that I ever wanted to do. And to hear these people talking about it like it was some kinda trip to Disneyland or something I knew I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people.

And worse is the fact that Maharaji doesn't make any sense.

I was tired last night and I couldn't for the life of me pay attention to Maharaji. Yet Joe, Marianne and Disculta were on every word with Joe preparing and warning us of upcoming Maharaji gems. Then again I've had hours and hours of video mind numbing and the only way to get through the nonsense is to surrender. Indeed, those rambling discourses from Maharaji never make sense and are, in fact, quite contradictory and childish. They were and are so bad that my head would hurt as I fought and fought. But it is through surrender (the stopping of the beating of the head against the wall) that peace finally comes and the world becomes simple and right.

Yet that peace has a hidden price. The price you pay by learning to surrender and accept what should be rejected is that you've just crippled yourself and everywhere you go and everything you encounter that is the least bit confusing or requires any amount of discernment you will opt to surrender. You've become rudderless. Ok, maybe you, the lucky plucky weasel or a few others with enough gumption or a large enough trust fund won't suffer as I did, but for me the effects of trying to even marginally follow Maharaji were devastating to my personal growth as a human being.

And what was really sad about last night videos was seeing Maharaji up there on his little stage at the Atlanta conference. There was his chair, a computer, a high tech whiteboard, and a podium all laid out to look like he was an in-charge on-top-of-it kinda leader who had the big plan to turn things around. And Maharaji lurched and staggered around making his little faces that used to be so cute, but at the age of 40 plus are in need of retirement. However, all that Maharaji is and ever was is a wind-up toy parrot saying the same nothing thing and putting the focus on himself to suck the love, energy and money out of his devotees.

It was not quite, but got very close to being totally pathetic. I could feel his discomfort and his hopelessness that he tried to hide under a cloak of cock-sure arrogance in front of a handpicked audience for two days. I'm sure that they saw much more than they ever wanted to see.

Finally, if you really want to remain a premie you do need to surrender, sit back, and quietly enjoy the show. And whatever you do, ignore that man behind the curtain.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:16:57 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: the nice thing...
Message:
the nice thing about beating your head against a wall -- it feels so good when you stop!

and: dere's no place like aum [aka om], dere's no place like aum,dere's no place like aum,dere's no place like aum,dere's no place like aum,dere's no place like aum...

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:43:20 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Drekko
Message:
That was a really great post.

I really get what you are saying about how mind-numbing the whole thing was for you. For us, last night, it was kinda fascinating, but enough was enough. But I had forgotten that I used to know the technique of not listening to what he was saying, except when his voice tone changes and you have to clap.

I think you are right on that people actually got too much of him.

Which, if you think about it, is a lot better than him keeping people by being unreachable and mysterious.

I just want to say that I enjoyed your humorous presence last night even though you were tired, and maybe we'll all do something more humorous next time.

love ktd

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 20:42:08 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: thanks, Discult
Message:
thanks for hosting. It was fun and I did enjoy myself. I just sorta was zoned out by his highness. I just cannot get myself to listen or read that stuff anymore.

And I really agree with your other posts about benefit of being around others who have been deprogrammed. Indeed, we endured many, many hours of conditioning. And the nature of that conditioning is pretty difficult to leave considering the possible consequences of eternal damnation or coming back in the next lifetime to be a snake being attacked by army ants or worse. Yes, it can be a very lonely frightening time.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:32:06 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Great stuff, eDrek! Ditto, Amen! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:21:58 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable
Message:
What's a training video? Who gets trained? I've been away from his GOOEYNESS for a long time. Is it possible to get copies of this thing for entertainment purposes?

Speaking of files being kept in messages above, don't you imagine that the FBI has a fat one on his Fatness...Do you think pwk's would drive airplanes into buildings if Goo Boy told them to?

What's the statute of limitations on sueing Baby Gooey for endangerment? Lots of people, including children, nearly died in India because they followed his agya.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 17:38:35 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable
Message:
MansionMom said:
Lots of people, including children, nearly died in India because they followed his agya.

---
-

Pray please amplify..

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 00:20:33 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: more about this soon (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:06:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Hi Housemother...
Message:
Let me introduce myself: I'm Cynthia Gracie, formerly Cindy Folcik. I got knowledge in 1976, lived in the Hartford, Conn. community, and was transferred early on to the Miami Beach Broadripple (formerly a whorehouse) and worked on Deca.

I'll try to find the archive were the trainings are better described by some who attended.

Welcome to the forum...I've been busy the past few days, so I am just catching up with the threads...

Best,
Cynthia J. Gracie
Vermont

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:18:35 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Hi Housemother...
Message:
Thanks for the warm welcome. I left long ago, but not with the benefit of a forum, or anyone to talk to about it who had been there, really. Those of you who are exiting with the benefit of the EPO and forum are fortunate indeed. When I left, I had no money, no education, no skills, no job, no relations to fall back on, and a child to care for. All my time and energy went to working, getting an education, learning life skills, raising my child and building relationships outside of DLM. Twenty-five years later, with the benefit of maturity, stability and this forum, I am feeling the anguish of some horrible events that I endured back then that I just walked away from at the time, determined to move on.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:56:04 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: housemother
Subject: Re: Live from Latvia - Unbef末ckinglievable
Message:
I'm going to make copies of this video available to people, so if you would like one, just let me know. Maybe people can send a copy on to someone else when they are finished. I agree that it is easier to stomach if you watch it with other people.

I got your email. I'm glad it feels good to look at this stuff again.

I am currently a little outraged at Tim Gallway and what he said on the Passages video. I'm not sure how to deal with it, but we gotta say something. He can't get away with being such a duplicitious liar.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:37:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'd like a copy of Passages
Message:
I'll trade you a copy of the last Hans Jayanti in Delhi so you can see how different he is with the Indian premies.

Maybe you and Kev can come to dinner. My treat. There are only a few bottles left of the Bouchard-Finlayson chardonnay that you had once. I'll save one for you guys.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:53:18 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You will love it!
Message:
It's so inspiring. Joan Apter is teary-eyed throughout.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:09:00 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe...about that video
Message:
Please put my name on the list to get that video.

Of course, I'd be happy to reimburse all postal costs, etc., then pass it on.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 23:02:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Yes Maam nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:43:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Okay, then, Sir...:):) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:35:10 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: A funny idea about the video
Message:
Hey, Joe, so many people want this video. Wouldn't it be hysterical if we SOLD copies of the MJ's own video on EPO as an exiting tool. (That's exiting, not exciting!). Things have gotten bad for him when people are sharing his videos as a means of helping leave his cult. I know I know, we can't do it copyright blah blah, but it's a funny idea.
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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 01:44:54 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Cracking me up! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:05:22 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: email
Message:
Joe, If you're up for it, I would like to process some of this stuff offline and through email with you from time to time. Lots of old repressed anger at the outrageous crap we went through, eg, and wondering about righting a few wrongs. I'm not ready to go public yet. I think it's the intensity of my anger that makes me feel unsafe, so time will help.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 16:21:46 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: housemother
Subject: Hi housemom
Message:
Hi again housemom. I know more of your particulars after having spent the evening with Joe last night. We have become good friends after meeting up through EPO. You can read my Journey -- posted under my name. You and I got involved and left right around the same time, as you will see.

I found EPO in the spring of 1999, and had much the same reaction as did you. I thought I'd struggled through leaving DLM, difficult as it was back then, and put it all behind me. When I found out what really happened after I left (and in some cases before), I got angry. Strange that reading this information can bring back all those feelings and memories, isn't it?

Feel free to email me if you want.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 17:04:16 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Hi housemom
Message:
Thanks Marianne. I think some of the distress I'm feeling could only come up after being this far away from it. Does that make sense? I loved your journey. I'm working up to writing mine, it's still really loaded for me, hence the email-processing thru dear friend Joe. It is reassuring to know that others have this delayed reaction. I'll email you.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:15:56 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: housemother
Subject: Please do
Message:
I'm in and out today, but I'll respond when I can.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:06:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Does Gallwey talk about his breakdown??
Message:
Wonder if Gallwey reminisces about Kissimee, the second one, the heavy one, where he spent one night wandering around in uncommunicable madness with a blanket wrapped around himself like a homeless schizophrenic, trying to find someone who could help him understand what the hell was going on. He was so far gone it wasn't funny. All he could remember was that he was Tim Gallwey and, in Maharaji's World, that was supposed to mean something.

Yeah, sweet memories ....

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:54:00 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Does Gallwey talk about his breakdown?
Message:
I remember that! I saw him right after coming out of darshan. He was shellshocked, being led around by some doctor with an accent, Valerio? He got him a sandwich and was so out of it, didn't even recognize or eat the thing. Some girl came up and begged it from him, the doctor claimed it back, shaking his finger at her. It was the strangest sight and I've never forgotten it. He looked horrific.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:51:54 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Does Gallwey talk about his breakdown?
Message:
You know, he doesn't talk about his breakdown, but Joe and I were commenting that his body language was very frenzied and desperate. He was trying to get these revisionist words out and his body seemed to be resisting, as if he was trying to shit a watermelon.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:27:17 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The Inner Game of lying
Message:
Maybe that will be his next round of trainings. ENRON, George Bush, Ashcroft, Bush's cabinet, and most of the people in federal office of either party could use his services, for starters.

LOLs

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:42:57 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: new technique-talk back to the videos
Message:
for all practicing premies who come here and read this board, here's a daring and challenging suggestion ofr you all. don't just sit there passively when you're watching MJ on the screen. sass him back. throw what he says back in his face. say what you really think, to him. correct his sentences. refute his declarations. counter his statements with your own contrary observations.

supply the unspoken parts he doesnt say. make parenthetical footnotes and commentary to flesh out the cryptic utterances.

record yourself doing this. do it in a group. liberate yourself from the lifetime spell.

if you feel the need of a more exercised expression, take his picture outside and hurl rotten eggs at it, tomatoes, mud, and so on. really take out your emotions on it until you're drained out. if yyou need a more satisfying sensation, take it to an empty parking lot or an abandoned location with a good hard surface and break crockery and glass and such over it, or at it, or before it, to get the need out. break things that need breaking, things that will really do it for you, like old videos, old cassettes, old pendants, buttons... but only if you really want to and it will be exhilarating for you.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:07:58 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks for the report from the trenches
Message:
All I can say about the Atlanta training video is ''I told you so.''

But I'm glad you saw ''Passages'' too. To me the shorter heavily edited devotional videos - with aging, achingly sincere gopis, waterfalls, swans, slomo shots of His Holeyness and Enya-typed music - are more insidious. Combine those with the sentimental feelings engendered by K and associated with M and you can spin quite a spell of a public persona.

I just wish they would mix in some footage of Prempal Rawat playing at being CEO of his organization in the Atlanta training vid. The slomo smiles and waves of The Master would look good in contrast to the pompous puffed-up patronizing incompetent CEO.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:28:36 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Videos: misrepresentation and mind fuck
Message:
As Disculta said, I watched the videos last night too. They were appalling. It was a bit like an episode of Mystery Science Theater 3000 -- with all of us adding our observations and insights as the videos played along.

Passages is a blatant attempt to rewrite EV history. These are the stories of people close to Captain Rawat -- some of them the folks who enforced the rules and regulations of ashram life that many of us adhered to. This is a story of people to whom the usual rules of life in the cult did not apply and who apparently have no hesitation in making these material misrepresentations about the history of DLM/EV to whomever watches this piece of carefully scripted tripe.

It was easy to see what was missing and misrepresented in Passages, because we also watched the Lord of the Universe video. Here are people close to Captain Rawat, including the adults in his family, saying he is the Lord on Earth, and describing Millennium as the most important event in the history of humankind. Now those words came from Rotguru himself, not from the 'sari brigade', Glen Whittak's description of the people who wanted Hindi ritual oh so much more than Satguru. Was Rennie Davis part of the ' sari brigade'?

The complaints about the closing of the ashrams come from people who wanted ashram ritual rather than a true experience of knowledge, these folks claim. Oh yes. No mention of Rowat's personal multiple exhortations that ashram life was the only true path to devotion and realization.

Really, these are outright misrepresentations about what happened. This video was made, at least in part, to respond to the criticisms that have been made here -- criticisms based on first hand experience. The people who appear in this video should be ashamed of themselves for perpetrating such a fraud.

The most important bit of information gleaned from the training video is that Rotwat is terribly pissed off about EPO. There he is, talking about the history of his cult, and he gets very irritated, noting how he still has to explain away what happened during the early years. And he says he shouldn't have to. He rants about what premies shouldn't say about knowledge, but never tells them plainly what they can say. The present day spin on 'not a leaf moves without my agya' is that 'everything is courtesy of the master' -- ie, that he can have knowledge sessions or not, he can come and talk to premies or not, etc. Watching this stuff made me sick to my stomach. It was all a giant mind fuck. I wouldn't do it again on my own.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:08:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Stay Tuned....
Message:
Hi Marianne,

I'm glad you said the following:

The most important bit of information gleaned from the training video is that Rotwat is terribly pissed off about EPO. There he is, talking about the history of his cult, and he gets very irritated, noting how he still has to explain away what happened during the early years. And he says he shouldn't have to. He rants about what premies shouldn't say about knowledge, but never tells them plainly what they can say. The present day spin on 'not a leaf moves without my agya' is that 'everything is courtesy of the master' -- ie, that he can have
knowledge sessions or not, he can come and talk to premies or not, etc. Watching this stuff made me sick to my stomach. It was all a giant mind fuck. I wouldn't do it again on my own.

So rotwat is pissed off about EPO, well BooHooHoo. As soon as I finish transcribing the 1976 Atlantic City Conference audio tape, he is going to have a lot more explaining to do.

It's taking me longer than I anticipated because back in 1976, he spoke really fast and in broken, self interupted sentences, with loooong pauses, then rattle, rattle on and on. I won't give any highlights right now. It needs to be read as a whole piece--I'm actually having fun doing it, yet it's grating to listen him like that (forgot how he used to speak).

I've been finding myself laughing my ass off at what he is saying, as compared to what he's trying to hide now. What a piece of work he is.

It's a pisser!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 13:26:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Isn't it amazing?
Message:
I felt the same way when I listened to it. One the one had, it seemed so familiar and you would easily be lulled into not really listening to the content. And then when you listened to the content, it's just so outrageous.

Thanks for doing the transcription, Cynthia. And thanks to Ulf for uncovering that tape. It's another important piece of incriminating evidence against Mr. Rawat.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:50:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Isn't it amazing?
Message:
Yes, Joe, it's quite amazing. I'd completely forgotton how he sounded back then and to type it out is even more weird. It's not triggering me at all. I'm quite happy about that.

I type quite fast, about 100 wpm, and his way of speaking is very convoluted. Rewind, rewind again...what? Did he REALLY say that? It seems the more I rewind to get it right, it makes me laugh...even though what he's saying is so pathetic and sad. I do remember hearing that tape in Hartford way back when.

It won't be too much longer to complete, but I want to get it down exactly as spoken. It's a shame there's no way to be able to listen to it on the website. He's so mean.

I agree. Very incriminating.

And thanks to Ulf, too.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:09:09 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The morning after
Message:
At one point during the showing of the Atlanta video last night, I had a weird feeling in my body, like I wanted to shower. It was quite intense, and I know what Marianne meant when she said she wouldn't do it alone - I'm amazed that Joe watched it alone!

So last night I had a dream in which I was in a cult (a lot like one we know and love), and the usual suspects were there, except that the leader and his honchos were mafia. Literally the Godfather and henchmen. I stood up on stage and said something very disrespectful to the Godfather, and all of a sudden I was being rejected by him, and by his henchmen, and by all the members. In the dream this was quite scary and worrying.

I woke up feeling a bit strange, and thought, that's a strange dream. Then I realized it wasn't so strange after all. This was pretty similar to what happened to me in a way -- the dream was not even that symbolic really. I was wondering if I was just recreating something old and negative for myself by watching the video, but I think it was good, because of the company of the laughing friends. I really haven't had the experience of doing the 'Mystery Science 3000' thing with MJ videos, with a group of people who are feeling the same way. I used to do it with a group in my head, but when I exited, I felt I had to be very tactful and careful with ALL my friends, because even if they were drifting away, very very few were actually saying anything negative. So it was fun, and I do recommend it as a good deprogramming device especially for all of you who are exiting more recently, who have had a lot more years of these videos than I had.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:20:34 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: You might need a GuRU486 pill ~) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:01:05 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: The morning after
Message:
Hi Disculta,

Those kind of dreams for me are like a huge purge (whatever the subject). That junk he implanted into our subcconscious minds comes up in such dreams, IMO. I'm not surprised you had that dream. Is it true that dreams are the barometer of our subconscious? I think so, but I am no expert.

I'm glad you are okay. I was a bit worried how it would affect you (all), but knowing now that you shouted back and laughed a lot must have been a wonderful release.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 21:50:01 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Derek Harper
Message:
Does anyone have a picture of Derek Harper that they can post here? It is soon to appear in modified form on the rogue's gallery at the House of Drek.

Thanks in advance.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 21:19:15 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Derek Harper
Message:
Marianne,

I don't know if the proposed representation of Derek Harper in the House Of Drek is related to Catweasel or not, but if it is, it may be a case of crucifixion without sufficient evidence.

There is circumstantial evidence to point towards Catweasel being Derek, but there is also plenty of circumstantial evidence pointing away from that conclusion. As far as I'm aware, no-one, including those in the best position to do so, has yet to have the evidence to present a direct connection between the two.

Therefore, whatever your opinion of Mr Harper, pillorying him on the basis of the assumed connection with CW is akin to some of the tactics used on the former CAC sites.

McDuck

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 21:50:18 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Re: Derek Harper
Message:
McDuck: Point taken.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 01:56:04 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne
Message:
Hi Marianne,
is robert jacobs the chairman of the board of millbank tweed?
If not, who is.
Is he even on the board?
Any way to get the board members names?
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:33:47 (EST)
From: Information
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: Marianne
Message:
He's chair of the tax section of Milbank (www.milbank.com) (rjacobs@milbank.com) and head of the NY State Bar Assn, Tax Section.
[ Robert Jacobs ]
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:40:26 (EST)
From: Information
Email: None
To: Information
Subject: Or...
Message:
D. James Lantonio
Executive Director
1 Chase Manhattan Plaza
New York, NY 10005
Telephone: 212-530-5000
Fax: 212-530-5219
info@milbank.com

Not all law firms have boards. Perhaps it's just the name partners and a managing partner.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 08:46:09 (EST)
From: Church Lady
Email: None
To: Information
Subject: That's special! Do his associates know...
Message:
that he represents the rawat gang?
And what rawat is really all about?

Has anyone ever e-mailed Jacobs and others in his law firm with the EPO site address?

Special, special,special...

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 11:55:30 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Church Lady
Subject: Oh yes, people have called Jacobs
Message:
They have also called at least one associate who works at his firm. Unless you have some very specific business to take up with him about EV, I'd advise against contacting him. But, it's a free world out there. Use good judgment, please.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:25:02 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: thanks. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 23:37:29 (EST)
From: Ddermot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Maybe one of these Marianne
Message:
Hi Marianne

Long time no hear....one of these days I'll email you ...and Moley ...and uncle Tom Cobbley and all.... hahaha

read your story below......cool.

Cheers

Dermot
[ Will the real Dh please come forward ]

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 21:17:39 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@peace/lentils.org
To: All
Subject: REVELATION of da lil swami:
Message:
[posted upon request of several ex-premies]

Revelation of da lil swami:

The Revelation of light, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he signified it unto his servant suchabanana.

Blessed is [s]he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

It was the autumn of 1999, when I still considered myself a 'premie' [aka pwk] of the self-proclaimed 'perfect master,' Guru Maharaji [aka Prem Rawat]. I meditated regularly, but had gradually eschewed the monotonous video events, the anal organisation and the bizarre head-trips of empowered participating premies. In fact, I found all the external cult trappings, abusive power trips, format, and the pathological reinforced group mind-set to be altogether irrelevant, dysfunctional, co-dependent, downright disturbing and unhealthy, as well as absolutely counter-productive to my personal well-being and spirituality.

After meditating late one night and then praying to God for guidance, I fell asleep and had a deeply alarming precognitive dream. [Incidentally, I have had many discernible precognitive dreams in my life, all of which have manifested in worldly reality. While there are some who may ignorantly dismiss precognition or declaim the validity of dreams entirely, I have not only road-tested these occurrences in real life but have studied and compared them with scientific and historical research that supports the veracity of such experiences, in numerous reported cases. Now, this dream is simply my personal experience, which is not subject to debate. Again, I am only recounting and posting this revelation after repeated requests from a number of ex-premies.]

* * *

The vision: I was up at Maharaji's [er, Seva Corporation's] palatial Malibu residence, where the premies had all gathered. We we waiting for m. to appear. Finally, m. came out of the entrance with some obvious security goons. I asked him, 'Maharaji, what should we do?' He replied, 'Split.' Then he turned around and abruptly went into a new security bunker/guardhouse, followed by the security goons -- and the bunker door closed.

Suddenly, there were great fires and explosions everywhere, in all directions. Premies were scattering and screaming in terror, trying futilely to flee from the now-encircling wall of consuming flames. But there was no escape in sight.

Then I saw a winding staircase and I looked down -- the stairs descended into a bottomless pit of fire -- and there was the appalling sight of countless terrified faces screaming in continual torment and agony. No way out there! I instinctively called out, 'Dear God, Please Save me!!'

Then, my attention was drawn again to the stairs. I noticed the stairs also ascended -- and as I looked up, the stairs reached the clouds and, finally, an opening of clear sky. A way out!

I immediately awoke, somewhat shaken, and I tried to make sense of this apocalyptic vision.

* * *

At the dawn of the new millenium [in the year 2000], when I went on-line and read the documentation published on ex-premie.org and had absorbed the shocking import, I realised that there would be very heavy repercussions within m.'s organisation -- and especially amongst the premies at large. Reflecting on my dream, I now understood that there would soon be a mass exodus of people from what was clearly a self-aggrandising personality cult which sanctioned, enabled, perpetrated and perpetuated abuses at the very top -- and wantonly practiced rote cheat and deceit upon tens of thousands of trusting human beings. [Remember how m. used to always say, 'No cheat, no deceit.' How ironic!]

I also sensed [again, from my dream] that m.'s first thought would be to protect himself, leaving his disheartened and devastated devotees to fend for themselves.

Lastly, I surmised that the way out of an individual symbolic hell involves discernment and making the right choices, in consciously directing one's activities of body, speech, and mind.

Accordingly, I decided to do what I could to assist others, too -- in detaching from the cult and deconstructing the insidious falsehoods, artifices and superimposed concepts that had reigned and run roughshod over so many innocent lives.

Alas, that vision, that time has indeed come to pass. So, AWAKE, all ye premies, aspirants, and your families -- the self-evident truth shall set you free from the bondage of false cult delusion.

from,

One who has awakened

PS Because of a number of shared serious concerns, I waited 1.5 years to post this missive, until the time felt ripe.
[ http://www.ex-premie.org/ ]

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 02:31:15 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: REVELATION of da lil swami:
Message:
Thanks, Such. I'm glad you shared this.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 22:05:15 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Shit, What does this mean?
Message:
Rawat is going to do a Crown Prince Dipendra number on his nearest & dearest? I hope not, but you never know. Lots of similarities :brought up to be an absolute monarch, never had anyone say boo to him his whole life,liked whisky & dope in royal quantities(& no doubt quality, i.e max strength),& when thwarted grabbed an m16 which he kept in his bedroom, & let rip.

OK, that's the comic book version,but it would take Shakespeare to do justice to the tragic reality of it ,& I ain't him.

You ever have any dreams involving horses,I'd be really interested.(joke)

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 04:00:33 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: r.e. What does this mean??
Message:
In the dream, the engulfing fires and huge explosions were happening all around the hills and periphery of the residence, and then to areas of the residence itself.

At first, I wasn't sure if it meant a big fire was going to sweep over Malibu, or a nuclear war was going to happen within a few years, or what...

But, the people affected were the premies, not m., who just hunkered down in his bunker with the remaining hardcore cult honchos and goons.

Then, it started to make more sense symbolically to me when I searched the web intensively for information, official records, and feedback about miragey and other similar cult leaders, and became still clearer as the epo vs. cult drama unfolded more - J-M, new and concealed information gleaned from worldwide ex-premie networking, then Dettmers' posts, Abi, Donner, et al.

then, the scenario of m.'s protective inner circle waging an aggressive bellicose campaign against his public critics and his own former devotees, replete with attorneys and hassles, p.r. wars and spin doctors, hackers, caca, document shredding, then the recent paranoid construction of a multi-million dollar security facility at the residence, etc.

all the while, more and more premies wising up, freaking in ever greater numbers and exiting -- all over the world.

... with the choices for many people of what to do next, from the initial devastation and realisations of shattered illusions, the numerous accounts of accompanying despondency, depression, anger, and in some cases devotion turned to hatred, etc.

...choices of comportment, right versus wrong, taking the ethical high road versus the low road, hard lessons learned, new personal reassessments and life choices, new individual paths and evolving journeys, etc.

btw, yeah, when the Nepalese incident happened, I immediately thought of maha, too, and the similarities. truly bizarre!

and look at the Rawats' responses to Pat Halley's pie stunt in Detroit in 1973 -- family members and mahatmas instigating assassination and then miragey personally directing the aiding, abetting, and flight of the criminal high-ranking cult fugitives - then his stonewalling, disingenuous curt reply about investigating the skull-smashing when questioned by reporters at Millenium, then his patent refusal to be interviewed or answer questions from the general media thereafter. the vehicular manslaughter hit and run and criminally fraudulent accident report, incl perjury; the many coverups and rife personal deceptions, the obscenely colossal money diversions and misappropriation of charitable funds for his personal luxuries, etc.

so, it all adds up. the sh--? well, the sh-- has Really hit the fan for m.'s cult, and all heck is breaking loose now. meanwhile, more and more people are picking up the pieces of the remainder of their lives, and moving on.

speaking of 'nearest and dearest', I thought the premies were supposedly near and dear to m. however, apparently not - judging from his diatribes to any questioning premies, his constant shifting of blame onto others and habitual refusal to accept any personal accountability to the pwks on many serious issues, his thinly veiled threats about waging 'war' and what happens to those who leave him, etc. -- classic megalomania. sick, sick, sikh.

oh well, a 'preemie' is just a prematurely born baby, after all -- but in this case, brainwashed, lobotomised, and rendered defenceless and vulnerable to further exploitation via continued cult programming, mental reinforcement techniques utilising multi-media, group peer pressure and conformity, the fostering of distrust and desecration of one's innate intelligence, and a corresponding mass dysfunctional codependency, courtesy of Big Brother.

Ex-premies are weaning these preemies from their codependency and teaching them how to take off the dog collars and stand on their own two feet -- as human beings finally abandoning a false and contrived, demeaning archaic feudal system -- recognising longlost suppressed egalitarian principles, finding and asserting themselves, discarding cult think and residual attitudes and behaviours, rekindling personal goals and directions, and enjoying the renewed liberties of life as independent thinking and feeling individuals.

Free at Last! As for myself: in God we trust; all others play cash. For that is truly the insidious game and agenda of the greedy rugus, materialist massas, tele-evangelists, and other charlatans. Indeed, for the love of power and money, they will lie, steal, cheat and deceive others.

As for the symbolic elements of the dream, the process has been gestating and steadily manifesting for several years already, step by step, and has been publicly unfolding, revealing to the light of truth what was hidden for so long from so many.

Indeed, darkness is relative -- merely the absence of light. When the light shines, the darkness disappears. As that light shines and reveals the skeletons hidden in m.'s dark cult closet, then that truth will obliterate the darkness, which shall inevitably disappear -- along with the apparatus and operatives supporting and perpetuating the cult.

Bonne chance!

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 08:08:54 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: such
Subject: That reminds me
Message:
That reminds me of a dream I had in the mid nineties, before all the Maha revelations came to light and before people started talking about it all on the net.

I had a dream that I was in a back garden with the Maha and some premies. He was sitting on his white chair and we were all sitting on the grass at his feet. Suddenly I noticed that the Maha was drunk and looking definitely worse for the wear. He was rambling on incoherantly about all sorts of rubbish and I was thinking, ''This isn't Maharaji. Where is the real Maharaji?''

Then I woke up and even though I'd not seen the Maha since 1986, I thought, I wonder what that dream meant? Is the Maha really like that or is that how I fear he might be? No, I thought. The Maha is the Lord of the Universe and he'd never act like that person in the dream.

A few years later after trawling the net for months, I finally found Jim Heller arguing with some premies on a little premie guestbook. Jim was banned from the guestbook and so the argument moved to the alt.support.ex-cult newsgroup. I made my case that I thought Maharaji could still be the Lord and then left the online scene for a few months.

After a while I looked but I couldn't find any more stuff about the Maha on the net so I emailed Jim and he directed me to where the argument was now happening, the alt.cult.maharaji newsgroup (still there, I believe).

I was still skeptical that Maharaji was this booze sodden guy that Jim and others had made him out to be and after reading the Mishler interview, I considered it was all poppycock, and said as much.

But the damage had been done. I was left to think about these things. Was Maharaji the Lord or was he this other guy, similar to the one I'd dreamt about. Eventually the truth dawned, and the night I realised it, I wrote this:

This Darkened Night

For those of us who gave our hearts,
For those of us who tried
Sincerely to devote ourselves,
Believing that he was the Lord.
For those who wept the tears of love
For one we saw as God,
For those of us who wanted
To tear out our very heart
And place it at his lotus feet
Because he was the perfect one,
Most radiant, most blessed
God of Love in human form.

For us, there is an empty space,
A shattered dream to come.
Where is our Lord this darkened night?
Where fall His footsteps in our world,
What hope our friends to give?

Pray God please help us all.

I guess some people reading here these days might be going through that darkened night. It hits different people in different ways. We deal with it in our own way but telling people how we dealt with it can help them.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:50:06 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: there are more out there, too
Message:
Sir Dave,

there are probably a lot of other people who have had revealing dreams/visions/premonitions about the maha.

Back in the 1970s, I had some of the typical darsham dreams - but as maha got older, the vision of him changed in the dreams from someone benevolent and caring to something less complimentary -- and I thought, at first, it was just my mind working overtime in my dreams. As it turned out, our universal energy's communications database was apparently trying to clue us in. hohoho [at least, I can laugh about it now]

Here's an interesting anecdote, though: In about 1977, m. was planning to have Hans Jayanti somewhere in November, but he wouldn't tell the premies where, at first. It was presented to us at satsang that maha would announce the event only about a week or two before it was to happen; then, anyone who could make it to the festival on short notice should go.

Anyway, I thought it was all some kind of game. So, after meditating one night, I asked God to show me where the festival was going to take place. Then, I fell asleep and had a dream in which m. was hovering over Rome, showing me my old school and the favourite hangouts of my youth. Then, m. appeared above the Palazzo della Sporte, where I used to go to rock concerts for 600-1000 lire back in the mid-60s, seeing bands like the Stones and the Who. He stretched out his arms and said that was where the festival would take place.

The next evening, I got up in satsang and announced it -- and everybody laughed at me [for acting like a 'bongo premie']. A few days later the official announcement came down -- Hans Jayanti in Rome at the Palazzo della Sporte.

This kind of precognitive stuff has happened to me many times, plus other much deeper spiritual experiences while simply awake or in meditation (that I wouldn't share publicly).

Also, the reason so many premies often had dreams about him in the first place was because they were focussing so much of their consciousness on him -- only natural.

I'll give a parallel example: long ago I had a girlfriend who went away on a cruise ship for 4 months. I obsessed over her, during her absence - and was quite saddened as her letters became more and more distant sounding and she intimated about new friends she made shipboard becoming more than friends. So, since she was supposedly a good Catholic girl, I thought I'd pray to Jesus at bedtime and ask what she was up to on the ship. Anyway, I had this dream where she was shacking up with this young Jewish kid on the ship.

The next month, when she returned, she acted strangely. Then, one day I found a letter she had misplaced in my bedroom, detailing a romance on the ship. I confronted her with it, and after lying for a few days [even when I made her answer me while holding a rosary], she finally admitted to a fling with this young Jewish guy she had met. I forgave the affair, but then she and he started ringing each other up. So, bye-bye birdie! When we split up, I gave her the rosary - telling her she had defiled it by lying! haha

Sometime I might share an interesting anecdote about my former housemate - Marilyn Lois Johnson [aka Durga ji]. Before she and maha ever got cozy, I had a premoniton in 1973 that she would marry the tubby pimply teenaged Lord of the Universe -- and I told some of our mutual premie friends. Of course, they just laughed at the absurdity of it, at the time. A year later, she did marry him. There's a lot more to the story, however. [will save it for another time, perhaps]

Ciao,

da lil swami

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:19:10 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Please tell me NOW!!!
Message:
What The!!!!! ....
You cannot just leave me hanging like this.
Please be as erudite and explicit as is possible.
Love me.
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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 14:37:07 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: patience, please
Message:
Some of these posts take time, reflection, care, etc. to compose. And these old eyes have trouble reading the monitor screen, too. It's often fatiguing (and sometimes physically hurts).

I am trying to do what I can here [that is, When I am available], but I have a full plate of demanding work, special projects, etc., to deal with and complete, too, that are also very important and urgent now to me -- in what's left of my life.

You know, I waited 1.5 years to post something very serious here, for a reason. I didn't want to freak some people out, and I wanted people to see the manifestation of some events transpiring first, among other things. [In fact, I sought the feedback of some other ex-premies here -- who advised me to wait.]

ok, I will post the lil Marilyn thing - also, I don't want to mention anything that is not relevant, or gossipy.

hope you are enjoying freedom, happiness, and peace.

Peace and lentils,

PS btw, this post thread (r.e. precognition) was not intended to be cryptic. It spells out the cataclysm which has been already unfolding before our very eyes.

as the house of cards comes tumbling down,
humpty dumpty tries to keep his crown,
in a sea of anguish premies would drown,
unless the angels intercede in human form
-- and help these souls rebound.

the stairs lead up,
the stairs lead down,
proceed carefully,
for we reap what we sow
-- here and now.

in a world already rife with suffering,
let us show empathy and love for each other
-- and especially for those in pain.

take the high road
take the high road.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 17:52:33 (EST)
From: Bodhi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Joe Does this Help?
Message:
Hey Joe, Linda Pascotto's email is lpascotto@compuserve,com
Regards
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:21:40 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bodhi
Subject: Yes, thank you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:00:22 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: All
Subject: thanks to all and a word to new exes
Message:
Dear Ones, Thanks for the warm welcome to the EPO site. After my first two days of posting (tho I've been lurking for a year) I had such anxiety based insomnia last night. All the old memories and fear of retribution! Was it a faux pas to have used people's names? I could just imagine being sued by the lawyers of Mordor.
I want to say (what may be very obvious) to those of you who are still practicing K and fear leaving, not because of devotion to M but because it is the basis of your spiritual life, that there are many wonderful ways to practice meditation and pursue spiritual growth without being a premie. As a matter of fact, there are many traditions of spiritual practice that not only don't require a guru, but instead are based on an individual's independence. I stuck around longer than necessary because I loved meditation and worried that leaving the goo would end my spiritual growth. I found that the opposite was true. I have had a very rewarding meditation practice for decades, not based on the goo's techniques, but on other traditions that don't require membership or donations. It's been interesting to meet so many ex-cult members (not always ex-premies) at different meditation groups. Some people leave the goo and never want to meditate again, and some want the spiritual practice without involvement with a charlatan. Either choice is a move towards healthy self-reliance and emotional well-being.
Having my curiousity stimulated by this site I have been asking some questions of my family and I just found out that the father of my eldest child, who never gave me a cent of child support, is still a premie and gives lots of moolah to the goo and has for all these years. I am numb with anger.
If I disappear for a while it's because I'm overwhelmed and absorbing all the stuff I've learned about the effects of snake oil.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 12:58:19 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: The 'Goo'!!!! Hahahahaa!
Message:
D'you think the Goo will rue the day?

... the day he came to a sticky end!

(thinks - couldn't that be a name of a sixties dance - Rue the Goo?)

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 16:55:34 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: The 'Goo'!!!! Hahahahaa!
Message:
I like the nickname 'the goo' very much and have now been using that moniker exclusively(thanks Housemother!).
Also rue the gu has a second meaning which is the goo is really a roogoo instead of a gooroo, since he does the opposite of a gurus literal meaning which is one who brings people from darkness to light.
Obviously he does the exact reverse, that is brings well meaning people from the light into darkness.
Irony after irony in this cosmic joke
Huh, Prem?
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:52:40 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Re: thanks to all and a word to new exes
Message:
Thanks for the note on meditation, Housemother. I love your handle. It brings up pleasant nostalgic memories of the past. I loved all of the hosuemothers!

I am about four weeks into beginning my transformation and meditation is one of the issues for me, as in, whether or not to continue doing it. Largly, of course, it is enmeshed with the confusion around M and K for me now, so I have been avoiding it for the most part. At the same time, for about six months I have been involved in a wonderful group at my church in which we sit in a circle, meditate for a half hour, then share what happened, both during that meditation and during the week. The group is egalitarian and has no central deity including Jesus. I add this because it is in a church.

What is most important for me is the happiness I feel while partaking in that circle. Since running into EPO, I have only been meditating during that half hour. I had, in fact, been thinking of leaving the group, since I was no longer feeling comfortable with meditation, and, since that was the focus of the group, I didn't feel right in being a distraction for others for whom it was important. But the group wanted me to stay.

I have shared what has happened to me in the last four weeks with the group. Up until then, they didn't even know that I had a guru. It was something I hid from everyone...everyone. It was very difficult to admit to having been duped for 28 years by a straw guru, but I did anyway. I wept as I did it. Uff da, as we say in Minnesohta.

During this morning's meditation, my only one of the week, I really had a nice experience with it; different, of course, because M is no longer there, other than occasional thoughts about him, but no longer as an omnipresent deity. Jesus came up too, but I found myself letting him go because of my confusion about who he was, since it all happened 2,000 years ago, and I wasn't really sure what he was or is. He seemed to say, 'Don't worry about it.'

I realized that I was no longer treating THOUGHTS as intruders. But I began to embrace my MIND. To embrace it and accept what it told me. What it told me was to pray to the Universal Love which I feel each week in that circle, and to pray to be a channel for it, helping to bring it into our circle, which I proceeded to do, to the best of my ability. I had a wonderful time this morning.

Anyway, I started a thread a week or so ago about meditation. You perhaps missed it. But I do want to continue to meditate and to see how it is different now that I have left the movement. On the other hand, I don't want to do it everyday, as I think it makes me float too much and ignore the sensual world, which I have, as part of the teachings, mostly rejected for 28 years.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 15:45:01 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: You guys are the reason I was a premie
Message:
You guys are so great! Thank you for this forum. You all are the reason I was a premie. You were the ones I loved! It's so true that loving and well-meaning people are drawn to spiritual groups, and alas alack, are the easiest to exploit. I appreciate that no one has outted me here on the forum. It is scary to come forth and speak out, and maybe I will eventually use my name, but for now, the safety of anonymity is important.

In Jack Kornfield's book *A Path With Heart* there is a chapter called 'The Emperor's New Clothes:Problems with Teachers.' It is worth reading, especially for new exes or those still involved but wondering. He talks about how important it is to have an ethics committee whose job it is to make sure that abuses don't take place. He writes: '...sometimes the situations we encounter are so bad, our best response is to leave. Some teachers and some communities become so grandiose, so unconsciously duplicitous and fearful...Some unhealthy systems are exploitive and abusive beyond repair. Sometimes only later, in the face of real problems and persistent denial by the teacher and community, do we know we must move on.' You get the point. He also talks about the process of healing from spiritual betrayal, the rage, grief and emptiness that it leaves us with.

I have found this helpful over the years, but what's interesting to me is that these feelings of anger, fear and betrayal resurface after years of being away, after years of therapeutic examinations, success in life, and making peace with the past. It makes me realize what sincerity I/we brought to my/our involvement with the goo, and how vulnerable and open we were to his exploitation. About corrupt spiritual teachers Thomas Merton writes: 'And if the sheer force of his own self-confidence communicates itself to other people and gives them the impression that he really is a saint, such a man can wreck a whole city or a religious order or even a nation.' Not to mention former flower children. He should be so ashamed of himself. I am ashamed of him. I used to be embarrassed that I had been a premie, but now I feel kind of proud that I was so open and sincere. But Rawat, or whatever his name is, should hide his face in shame, with his tail between his legs he should disappear to some unknown location, praying for forgiveness, begging for compassion, and hoping for leniency.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:05:16 (EST)
From: Suzie
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Terrific post
Message:
That book sounds great. I'm off to Amazon.com to see if I can get a copy myself.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:01:42 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Amen [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:26:02 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: the anxiety attacks
Message:
I too had massive anxiety attacks at the start of posting. It came from all those years of listening to the dark insinuations interwoven into maharaji's every presentation, coupled with my own imagination of the size of His Power and His Organization.
the key word was 'my imagination'.

someone started a thread here a few days ago about Fear of the Unknown. I didn't post my rejoinder to it at the time, but i will now:

Fear of the Unknown is an exercise in scaring yourself with your imagination. and imagination isn't Reality.

remember this: when the unknown is'nt here, yet, it can't touch you.

And by the time it gets here, it'll be the Known, because here it is--and once it's known, you can see it, recognize it, and by this age in life, you've probably seen it all before, at least twice, and you'll know exactly what to do with it.

And if you don't, it'll be new and interesting and fascinating, as are most things you have never seen before.

the wife and widow of aldous huxley, Laura, has been quoted as saying ' I don't fear the Unknown. I seek it. My favorite thing to look at is the night sky, the blackest, most incrutable sector of it, because from the Unknown are going to come all the things that we don't understand yet; all the answers we don't have now, all the things that we still don't know'.

In truth, you will find that Maharaji and his lackeys are paper tigers. They are incredibly cowardly and afraid of the light. At the first sign of rejection, disaffection, criticism or exposure, they shrink and withdraw and instantly exclude.

Witness the instant ostracizing of any of us who tell ou 'community' that we are having doubts or leaving, or have parted ways with the whole propositon. Suddenly nobody talks to you anymore. You're a non person. Overnight, you don't exist.

You know how Shri Hans used to say that a rock can sit in a river for a thousand years and be wet, but within minutes of being taken out and set in the sun, it'll be dry, and you could never tell if it had ever been wet?

He used it to illustrate that premies could sit in satsang for years and seem to be absorbing it, but that once they left, you could never tell they had ever been there.

He meant it as a spur to be more open.
But his comment has another side to it that's fortunate for us, here, too:
It means that despite years of drowning ourselves in the supposed river of satsang, once we get out on the banks in the sun, warm up and dry off, surprisingly, our original state returns more quickly than we would have believed possible.

the analogy might even serve a little further, here:
while in the river, the rocks only LOOK shiny. like premies do, in the hall. the water gives the illusion that they're smoother than they are. it's only when you get them out and let them warm up and dry off that they can show themselves for what they truly are. they aren't wet and shiny anywhere but on the surface, and they are that only when they're in the river.

btw--they CAN be polished to the point where they are that shiny , without the water and the river. Once they are, the water is irrelevant. They don't need it anymore. They shine anywhere.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 15:55:23 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: the anxiety attacks
Message:
Thanks, Janet. That was fantastic. Being a baby ex myself, I needed to hear that. Very nice. Very nice. Beautifully said. Thank you.

Exing gets better and better and better with each passing day. How ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL (and mentally integrating) it is to no longer be plagued and bothered by that imaginary little voice inside my head that M manufactured into the enemy within to be feared. The similarities between M and Hitler are amazing. Post WWI Germans had only one enemy: the depression. That wasn't enough for Hitler to come to power and exercise absolute and despotic power over them so he had to falsely invent an enemy, the Jews, in order to give Germans a common enemy and rallying point of hatred and the need to persecute them as a reason for them to unite behind him. The 'Mind' is what Herr Miragee (Der Fearer) has been using as his phony ralying point. What is really beautiful is that the spotlight of truth from the liberating allied armies of posting EPO contributors are opening up the concentration camps of fear and ignorance that have enslaved so many premie prisoners for years. Good reason to celebrate! As was done at the end of WW2, let the (sorry, atheists) church bells ring! The war against greedy and evil guru frauds has been won! (Certainly the recent victory over M's evil and insidious CAC is the equivalent of D-Day, that's for sure.)

One last thing, I remember back in July 1973, just after Guru Puja at the Ally Pally, talking with a young British girl. Her dad had fought and was wounded by the Nazis in WW2. She said she had to leave the gathering when everybody started throwing up their arms with the old 'Boliye Shri ...' shouts because it reminded her too much of the 'Seig Heil's she had seen on TV. It was enough to turn her off from M. Lucky girl.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:42:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Why disappear?
Message:
Housemother, housemother,

If you go where will we be? Remember, as housemother you must be a paragon of steady sacrifice, unwavering devotion and supernatural purity. Until you run off with the Community Coordinator, that is.

Bad news about your ex. Does he have anything to do with that child who, I'm guessing, isn't quite a child anymore? Any recompense? Any room for it?

Been enjoying your posts. Lots of bright new people here. Hell, even Mirror's okay for someone so well-protected by all that new age bubble wrap. Pop! Pop! Pop!

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:42:11 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Hi, Housemother
Message:
Yes, I inderstand the worries about whether you've been too open and honest on the forum and cult retribution. I got such a rush out of posting here for the first time a year ago that I was a bit reckless and had sleepless nights wishing I could unwrite what I had posted. But I've read all your posts and I don't think you need worry at all.

I hope you don't disappear altogether. I've thoroughly enjoyed your frankness. It is as refreshing as Babs' your pal and one of my favorites too. Hey Babs, I hope your ears are burning.

You said: ''I stuck around longer than necessary because I loved meditation and worried that leaving the goo would end my spiritual growth. I found that the opposite was true.''

At least you got out long ago. Some of us got stuck much longer. I was talking to two premies last night and it seems that those who are into it for the meditation are open to hearing that Rawat is running a scam but there are also premies who are into it because they worship Rawat and K is just a boring chore they have to perform to obey him. They're really stuck.

So, I think we'll see more premies leaving once they realize that not only can they meditate after leaving the cult but that it actually is a lot cleaner, healthier and more fun without the corrupt ''master.''

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:22:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: Love you Housemom
Message:
Housemom,

Man, your posts are great, as I knew they would be.

First, the likelihood of being sued by the goo is less than zero.

There is nothing wrong with telling the truth and recalling your own observations and making your own opinions. Plus, if the zillionaire former Lord of the Universe were to sue his former followers who are responsible for making him rich, for having the audacity to criticize him on the Internet, that would be wonderful fodder for the press and that wouldn't help his already sinking ship. I think his lawyers realize this.

Moreover, a lawsuit would expose the goo himself to depostion under oath, as well as disclosure of documents, etc., which he would want to do about the same time hell freezes over. Most of us would LOVE if he would do that, but, again, I think his lawyers would advise against it.

I feel it is extremely important to name names. Not for the sole purpose of exposing outrageous and abusive behavior, although I agree with that, too, but also because the Maharaji cult has based much of its hold on people by hiding information about the goo and his organization, that the average, mostly sincere, premie has never known. People need to be held responsible for their actions, keeping in mind that Maharaji really is ultimately responsible for creating or allowing an environment that allowed vulnerable people to be abused, and because, literally, the rot starts from the top.

This website has been going on for going on 5 years now, and the goo's lawyers have only bitched about copyright issues, and even then, they failed. Never has M or his lawyers ever even claimed that what is said on EPO is untrue, except I believe to try to cover their asses in one aspect of the Jagdeo situation, because mostly it IS true, and they know it.

I know what you mean about the anger. I left the cult in 1983, and I was very angry at first, and then I forgot about it almost entirely, I would say for about 12 years. Then, I found this website and began discussing it again, and I was amazed that I was frightened to talk about it publicly. When I decided that was nuts, and overcame that, the anger came back, but this time I had a lot more distance on it and I was hopefully a more mature person, able to put it in perspective and not be intimidated by cult bullshit. And as I began to hear about Maharaji cult atrocities that I never knew in the cult myself, the 'anger' became more about justice, at least for me.

And for a couple of weeks, the same, putrid feelings I had in the cult kind of bubbled up from my intestines or something, and I remembered how awful it was, and I, too, had a couple of restless nights. But it was very therapeutic, and I also felt that this was a means to try to set the record straight, and do something positive.

Everytime a premie comes on the Forum and says, 'thanks for the website, I am now free,' and that has happened MANY times, it all seems worth it, because for me, like you, it always was about the people, really, not about the goo.

Thanks again, housemom, and thanks so much for your excellent contributions.

Joe

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:47:52 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Joe
Subject: Thanx Housemum+Joe
Message:
Great to read your contributions Housemum and Joe. Yes, I felt a bit jittery putting my name and number into the white pages for the first time. Was there going to be Divine Retribution or a lawyers letter? Of course that was all nonesense and I wholeheartedly agree with you both that it is healthy and neccessary to speak our truths. Congrats to the people who set this Forum up and maintain it.
Love
Tim
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 11:30:42 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu
Email: None
To: All
Subject: and your career
Message:
Mirror brought up a point in the thread below that got me thinking about the maharaji of malibu and how he messed up a lot of people's financial well being with his demand for devotion. The harm is especially evident in the long time prisoners(and yes, they are prisoners).

During the heavy devotional years-early 70's to early 80's, we were all of the age to be making career choices, i.e. continued education or learning within a business/professional environment. Devotion to the malibu maha made this impractical as chasing after him was deemed essential. Those who did go for a career were exposed as not being truly dedicated unless than were high up in the local hierarcy and then you weren't allowed to pass judgement.

It should be noted that most of us were former anti-war, pot smoking, LSD users so not having a career/joining the establishment was already ingrained in us. Devotion to the living lord, the satguru just allowed us to stay with this short-sighted thinking.

So what about those still trapped and those who exited after 20+ years. Some are ok long term with their finances but most aren't. No different than boomers in general actually but again devotion/cult involvement was the facilitator here. So, the malibu maha must be held accountable here. Time will only expose and worsen the situation. Faith in The Maharaji of Malibu will be shown as useless.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:32:32 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Re: and your career
Message:
I earned my math degree back in '69 and so a delayed education was not an issue for me. However, I had worked hard for that degree and I am realizing only now that the thing that kept me out of the ashram was a deeply held feeling that, I didn't care how greater than God M was supposed to be, there was no way I was going to turn myself into his slave. I had worked extremely hard both in school and doing brutal physical work building farm silos to pay my way thru college to throw all that away in the name of service to M. I was aware that the highly mobile lifestyle of ashram premies (constantly moving to new communities and constantly having to get new, relatively low-paying jobs because they had to quit previous jobs to attend festivals) meant that I would never be able to maintain a professional career as a computer programmer - something that, for me, has been vital to my happiness). This is not in any way a criticism of those that did - no way. Privately I admired the heck out of those that were able to sacrifice themselves. I just couldn't do it. Even then, back in the 70's though, it kind of reminded me of the gullible Germans who surrendered all notions of a personal life to unwittingly further the megalomaniacal and idiotic ideas of Hitler. But back then, no one dared even allow themselves to think anything negative against M. He was (so we thought) God and you don't dare mess with 'God' now do you?
The whole issue of wasting precious financial resources to run off to every festival M called grated on me for years. Premies were (and still are) in their late forties and early fifties, fast approaching retirement, and M, from what I could see, just did not give a damn that they were not going to be able to afford to retire with a minimal level financial security. This really ate at me. It is the major source of 'dripping' that made it possible for me to be receptive to EPO once I found out about it.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:27:36 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Re: and your career
Message:
For myself, it always was strongly implied and outright stated, that pursuing college or a career was just maya. That stuck with me all these years, so anytime I was interested in getting more education or leaned towards a particular career, I felt so guilty. And every satsang Maharaji has ever given, states that this world is nothing compared to knowledge.

It's only now, these few months into not being a part of that anymore compared to inhaling it daily for nearly thirty years, that I'm getting a business put together. At last I have the emotional/mental freedom and energy to do it.

The funny thing is, it set up an impossible paradox. Keep premies uneducated and in dead in, menial jobs while wanting donations verses all the perks for premies with money.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 18:10:55 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: i.e.'the knowledge you can't get in college [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:27:31 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Way to go, Vicki!
Message:
Good for you starting a business. Care to expand upon what it is you are now doing? I love to here 'victory' stories from people who escaped the cult.

If I knew you better I'd say I'm damn proud of and happy for you.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 02:50:10 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Way to go, Vicki!
Message:
Gee, thanks for your enthusiastic koodos! Only an ex-er could possibly understand what this means for someone who traded away the best years of their life.

I remediate children/teens/adults in reading. It is my absolute joy to take someone who thinks they are ignorant and incapable of learning to read and then have them up and reading in a matter of hours. Out of 35, I've only not been able to help one child, and that was due to a condition of vaccine induced 'autism'. Statistics say 2% are not able to learn to read by methods currently used. The wiring in the brain is tweaked and we need a way to reach them, as well.

So that's it, nothing earth shattering but I love when the lightbulb goes off and they light up like Christmas trees. I'm working on a way to enable parents across the US to tap in and help their child, as well as, putting the pieces in place with infants/toddlers/preschoolers so they have everything in place to be able to learn to read.

Oh, I could go on and on and on!

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 05:45:35 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Is this a new technique?OT
Message:
I have someone in my life who has great difficulty with reading. am in UK but have you any info?

peg

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 06:30:22 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Is this a new technique?OT
Message:
E-mail? Common sense based on the latest, and very comprehensive research. I can give you pointers. Plus you have the best of the best with Anth nearby.
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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 15:48:08 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: would love to hear if you feel inclined
Message:
Anth lives about 400m away. This is a long way in the UK. Hope I have not been cheeky to ask. My email is above.. but only if and when you have time.

thanks

Peg

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 03:25:35 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Way to go, Vicki!
Message:
There's nothing better than doing what you love and what you are good at. Congratulations, Vicki. I made a huge change in my life when I was 50 - from 30 years of counting pills to cooking food.

I counted pills because I was in a cult for most of those 30 years and felt worthless, undeserving and egotistical whenever I wanted to do what I really wanted to do and what I was good at.

In the cult it is agony to ''participate'' because personal skills are not respected. You are part of the Borg and must never shine at what you do. As a result everything is done half-heartedly and incompetently and nothing is ever really achieved.

Of course I hear Rev Rawat singing: ''That's the way I like it! Uh huh!'' He's such an incompetent nincompooply mediocrity that he can't bear to be upstaged.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 06:40:33 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here! Here!
Message:
Thanks Pat. You are encouraging and it is such a boost.

Ya know, it just occurred to me today that he has surrounded himself with really nasty people who are savy to the con instead of lovey dovey premies because he knows he is a con. He and his loon toon goons are duplicitious together for the good of the coffers, coughers, err is that coffins? They know the dark truth and are as dark as he is. Talk about the absence of light!

My husband had a funny darshan dream last night. We were in a hotel and he walked into the lounge. There stood Maharaji leaning up against the bar giving satsang to all the local community Indian premies, who were blissfully sitting on the floor. The funny thing was he had a full beard. My husband kept looking around for me, but I wasn't there. He was itching to ask me 'Can you believe this?!'
Maharaji behind a beard......rather appropriate inlight of the mssk he hides behind.

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 14:23:10 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Too funny
Message:
I dreamed about Rawat last night for the first time in years. I used to be a closet smoker in the cult because Rawat had several times said that smoking was wrong.

So I would sneak out and have a ciggy and then chew some mints etc before going back in. In the dream I walked into room where he was sitting and he said. ''I can smell you've been smoking.'' And I answered, ''So, is that a crime?'' It's the first dream of him I've had where I was not in awe of him and saw him as just another person.

The funny thing of course is that I did not know that he was a Marlborough man all those years but wondered why it seemed in the past five years that more and more premies were smoking outside events, even honchos. It seemed to have become fashionable whereas before I was the only American smoking with a few French premies. I guess they knew that he was puffing away and wanted to copy him.

This passage of yours made me remember the dream: ''He and his loon toon goons are duplicitious together for the good of the coffers, coughers, err is that coffins? They know the dark truth and are as dark as he is. Talk about the absence of light!''

They must be trying to set up a smoke-screen. :C)

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:53:00 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Too funny...exactly...
Message:
The last time I saw magoo live was at the Montreal program in, what? 1997? Everybody was smoking outside the hall, and the urug had just arrived and nobody I saw was hiding it.

Cynthia, the nicotine addict...$$$$$

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:20:28 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Yes but....
Message:
I don't think your statement applies to everyone involved or has left.

For myself the no-career, on the wire all the time, route has been one of choice, plenty of things I can have a go at the fraud, paedophile protecting abuser for, but not that

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:05:49 (EST)
From: duh!
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Re: and your career
Message:
it has not been easy for any one the implications and ramifications that have held us in place for so long have damaged us irreparably. My parents, as have many others perhaps, decided that rather than their child inherit at the end of their days and it all going to the M of M, because they were clear about gurus and money, they decided to disinherit wholly or partly their child. I cannot be bitter, it would seem that this is the price that some, perhaps many of us have paid to the greedguru from malibu.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 12:03:33 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: the goo blew it
Message:
I really agree with the line 'Time wil only expose and worsen the situation. Faith in the goo will be shown as useless.
This is a very astute though obvious statement. Look at how much worse things are for the goo now compared to before the explosion of the internet. All this after goo said 'the imformation superhighway is more like a parking lot'. I'll bet he wishes that.
This all proves the point that true quality can hold up to scrutiny, and conversely that things that are fake will be exposed in the light of day/truth.
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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:42:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A question for all new exes
Message:
Over on LG, the premie forum that's now even quieter than normal, I've been arguing with a couple of premie regulars about the trend, as I understand it, of people leaving and the reasons they do. In particular, citing what some of you yourselves have said as well as other reports, I've maintained that it's not exactly 'business as usual' in EV right now and that, in fact, people have indeed been leaving in noticeably large numbers. While I know it's hard to gauge this kind of thing, especially when your own leaving necessarily removes you from the centre of activity, such as it is, I wonder if you could comment further?

Likewise, whilst some of the diehard premie posters scoff at the effect of EPO and other ex sites such as this one, I understand that these sites are indeed having a huge impact on premies, at least in places where the internet is common and accessible.

Could you please comment on this as well?

Thanks

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Date: Mon, Jan 14, 2002 at 05:53:12 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Someone should write a book!
Message:
I don't really know how many people are leaving. Of the premies I know I have heard of two who may have exed recently. Of the premies I or my husband have told ( only 8 ) None will read epo although I think they are all affected and may one day. One of them, who is involved with ev, asked if I was 'One of those computer people' so it sounds like epo is getting quite well known amongst participators..but then he did a KIT so perhaps that's where he found out about it


There are a lot of premies who aren't computer literate at all. Is anyone writing a book?


Peg

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 22:07:17 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A question for all new exes
Message:
Reading Dettmers on EPO was the capper for me.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 07:19:20 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Impossible to leave?
Message:
I know that 'my instructor' (Rody Schmull from Holland) got involved with M when he was 19 or so. Very young. He is now well in his forty's, has never made a career for himself, no pension built up, completely dedicated his life to M.
Although I think it is highly unlikely, just suppose someone like that would want to leave the cult? Where do you go if you're that far in? At middle-age? No working experience what so ever, not even entitled to unemployment benefits because he's never worked. Are there any exes here who came out from that position?

Just curious,

Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:55:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Good question
Message:
I know that 'my instructor' (Rody Schmull from Holland) got involved with M when he was 19 or so. Very young. He is now well in his forty's, has never made a career for himself, no pension built up, completely dedicated his life to M.
Although I think it is highly unlikely, just suppose someone like that would want to leave the cult? Where do you go if you're that far in? At middle-age? No working experience what so ever, not even entitled to unemployment benefits because he's never worked. Are there any exes here who came out from that position?

Just curious,

Mirror


---

I have no idea what someone like that could do. I've got an old ashram mate, Bill Sparks, who, last I heard, was finally called down to Malibu some years ago to wash M's cars. It's sad to say but true, a number of premies get pretty humble jobs like being security guards, if they can't find anything better.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:48:01 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's more
Message:
Judging from what I've seen, LSD was more innocuous than M's trip, from a mental damage point of view. Where I work, there are many (and I do mean MANY) white-collar-type professionals who profess to have used the big-L during their younger years (they are believable, too). All of them are now successful, well-paid and happy folks with the usual trappings of 2.5 kids, etc.

In all seriousness, there were many premies that I knew, who were incredibly intelligent and capable people. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Unfortunately, some of those folks are getting to the age where it won't, from a professional career point of view, matter if they get out of the cult or not. THAT is truely a sad part to this...... 30 years come and go so quickly (no refund, no return).

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 13:20:57 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Impossible to leave?
Message:
I don't quite understand what Joan Aptor's current status is, but she has parlayed her years as an instructor into quite a lucrative career for herself on the outside. Other's have done the same. They go into consulting positions, workshop leaders, motivational speakers, etc etc. It's not impossible, but definitely takes some courage.
On the other hand, if someone had absolutely no money to fall back on or family, I have no idea how they would even get started. I suppose, on the QT, line up a job, then leave.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:25:11 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A question for all new exes
Message:
I just left last December. I was not a regular around Minneapolis for some years, so am for the most part quite out of touch with the 'church lady' crowd.

Thus far, I have only presented my EPO discovery with one other premie, a good friend, via email. He had already mentally left the group some time ago, but he is now reading EPO and we are having a very lively communication
---
the best we have ever had, as a matter of fact.

I am continually impressed by how this is the greatest and most truthful satsang I have ever heard/read and ENJOYED.

As far as the impact on the rest of the Minneapolis community, I do know that another exe who posts here sent out a dozen packets to premies of EPO material. Steve! Are you reading this? What has been the reaction thus far.

If I learn anything more about this community, I will let you know.

Personally, I think EPO must be having a HUGE impact. I don't see how EV and M can last beyond this year.

Anandaji

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 16:59:29 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Re: A question for all new exes
Message:
Steve's reply to Anandji: I am an outcast from the Mpls community. This includes my eight-year long close friendship with a premie whose name I will not mention to respect her freedom to live her life as she pleases. (That really DOES hurt very much.) I knew this would happen but was prepared to accept the consequences of exing.

Janet did a beautiful post (catch it if you haven't seen it yet) describing in such a poetic and beautiful way how all of M's power over premies is so phony and unreal - just like the darkness he used to rail about in his satsangs. I have realized that exing takes an ENORMOUS amount of courage and I have nothing less than tremendous respect for those who exercise the courage to do so. If I sounded like I was criticizing those who haven't exed yet, I didn't mean to. My attitude right now is really one of sadness for them and compassion for the suffering they are still subjecting themselves to. (They just don't realize it yet.) I want to be here for them when they are ready to move on.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 20:02:28 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: To Steve about leaving
Message:
It is really strange to have long-term friendships evaporate overnight, quite literally! I have come to the conclusion that none of those premies was my friend. As Maharaji once aptly put it--'You think you have friends? You must be joking. They just want to know what you're good for and where to pop down to!' He went on to say that they just want to borrow your lawnmower. Yep!
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 03:17:38 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Gail
Subject: Re: To Steve about leaving
Message:
Thanks, Gail. Yeah, I remember that quote of Der Fearer well. Even though we know on a mental level that most, if not all, friendship is based on anticipated selfish gain, still, it's funny how, in order to keep our sanity and mental good health we choose to remember only the good times and tend to forget the negative things. My heart only wants to remember the many years of good times I had with premies (admittedly mostly quite a long time ago). But being dropped so instantly like a lead balloon once you no longer toe the party lyin is gradually wiping even those memories out. That line from the Joni Summers song: 'Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got til its gone...' in this case is only half as true as: 'Don't it sometimes seem to go that you don't know what you never really had in the first place til it's gone.' It's so good to know that there are others who are willing and able to help support those of us still making the adjustment. It's lonely at times but then I just have to remember: hey, Steve, remember that little imaginary guy in your head that used to bug the shit out of you? Constantly? Guess what? He's gone. Celebrate! Break out Madonna's Immaculate CD and solo dance the night away!

One cute little totally unrelated thing: want to have a bit of fun? (Assuming you have one of the Microsoft Windows operating systems,) Type the word: AMAROO in Word and run Spelling (spellchecker) on it. You're gonna enjoy the result, I guarantee it. M can't even fool a computer!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:18:11 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Cost of Amaroo
Message:
We heard that Amaroo is in hock to the tune of $10 million (US) and the annual cost of Amaroo is US$500,000 and they don't have the money anymore to both do that and pay for the goo's Gulfstream Jet, which costs even more than that. Hence Amaroo may be sold. Here is how Moll of the Mole and Bodecia described how it costs that much. I thought this was important to bring up IMO, although I wonder how someone can live on $15,000, and wonder also how it is possible to have a 2% interest rate:

'B' said it goes something like this, 10 staff X 15 thousand US = 150,000. Interest on 10 mill at 2% is 200,000. Which leaves 150,000 for rates, insurance, leases, legal fees, maintenance on the 6 toilet blocks, 2 halls, residence for his guruness, 10 cabins for the hangers on, 2 office blocks, 1 restaurant, 1 swimming pool ( for his guruness) 1 tennis court (same) 1 large hole in the ground where his guruness speaks, 1 gate house, 1 caretakers house and assorted workshops. I town centre area with cabins and huts for food and shade areas, 4 klms of road and 10 of unsealed road, water storage and treatment system, sewerage treatment system, underground power and 2000 acres of scrubby old Australian bush.

Is this generally the situation? BTW, I have heard US pwks complain of flies, dust, and ungodly heat at Amaroo, not to mention how fucking hard and expensive it is to get to that remote corner of the world.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:52:16 (EST)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The Cost of Amaroo
Message:
I wonder how someone can live on $15,000, and wonder also how it is possible to have a 2% interest rate:

<

---

Joe,
15,000 is an average wage (US Dollars) and most of the loans are with premies who have offered the funds at a reduced rate.

MoM

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 11:12:02 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Moll of Mole
Subject: Thanks Moll
Message:
I understand that due to 9/11 and the recession in the USA, a number of those loans have been recalled, and the fear is that the other lenders will get increasingly nervous that they will be left holding the bag on a useless 'knowledge center' with a "restaurant" and "residence" in the middle of nowhere.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:13:06 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Quoted B not me!
Message:
Dear Joe,
Hiya!
Just for the record,I did not post anything re Amaroo running costs and debts.
Must be a different B.
BTW I can't seem to connect to EPO site. I am trying to access the last 700 messages.
Would they be archived now?
If not, how do I get them on screen.
Love
Boadicea the Pagan Luddite
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 11:22:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Thanks Bo, for correction (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:26:18 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: EPO and Archives
Message:
EPO appears to be down at the moment. I've raised a ticket with the hosting company's help desk.

Forum archives work like this. I take regular snapshots of the forum. Then when I have the time, I run a program to format the archive file into a friendlier form. I then put this on EPO, adding the links to the Forum 7 archive page. Often, I run into a problem where Hotboards has assigned the same message number to two posts. When this happens one of the posts is lost, and the formatting program stops with an error message. When this happens I have to manually edit the file changing references to the duplicate message number.

Currently, I am several weeks behind with this process, as the move to a new server over Christmas continues to cause problems.

John Brauns
webmaster www.ex-premie.org

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:19:40 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Thanks John, I'll get the hang of it(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:54:13 (EST)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: 'B' is my boyfriend not Boadicea NT
Message:
z
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:00:15 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The Cost of Amaroo
Message:
I left DLM about 25 years ago because we were all becoming aware of the dishonesty that filtered down from on high, the goo's unquenchable thirst for money, the way the goo would black ball his closest devotees if they angered him, and the fact that 'knowledge' was no more of a spiritual practice than praying the rosary or chanting Hare Krishna. We all gave our time, our hard work, our money, sacrificed our family obligations, careers, reputations, in order to spread the goo's word, not the mahatmas, but his. I remember how he had us propagating knowledge on the streets of Delhi. I saw him dance on stage in his little krishna outfit. Anyway, for the past two days I've done more reading and writing about the goo and those poor unhappy people that follow him than have for the past 25 years, and I feel nauseous. It's the same feeling I had before I left and never looked back. I admire the strength and endurance of those of you who confront the lies of EV, or whatever they call themselves these days. Personally I think the little fat man ought to call it quits and leave everyone alone already. Revisiting his atrocities over the past two days is like visiting an alcoholic and abusive friend after 25 years and finding them even more pathetic, bitter and decrepit than when you saw them last. It's sad and horrifying. sorry to sound so negative, but this visit to the world of the goo is overwhelmingly repugnant. I can't believe people still finance his little empire.
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:42:21 (EST)
From: housemother
Email: None
To: housemother
Subject: and another thing
Message:
I'm in shock I guess, I thought all this goo crap ended sometime after I left....I just found the site where they sale goo glasses and watches and pens that have a quote from the Bhagavad Gita 'Even in your darkest hour I will never abandon you' YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! Doesn't that imply that he still leads them to believe he's divine!?! I can't connect to the EPO site. Does it go down sometimes?
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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 14:20:09 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: and another thing
Message:



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All Rights Reserved

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