Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 12, 2002 To: Jan 18, 2002 Page: 2 of: 5


Marianne -:- No home Xmas visit post Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:31:48 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Christmas meant nothing to Maharaji -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:58:21 (EST)
__ Come on Marianne -:- who are you trying to BS? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:42:36 (EST)
__ __ To: Der Fearer's own Goelbels -:- Re: who are you trying to BS? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 22:54:48 (EST)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: who are you trying to BS? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:21:55 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- Deductive reasoning? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:55:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- It wasn't just Bill Patterson -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:10:56 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:08:52 (EST)
__ JHB -:- I wasn't allowed to see my brother -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:27:36 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- let the dead bury the dead -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:00:00 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Passages Video -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:59:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Inside Edition -:- Inner Circle -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 23:53:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Passages Video -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:12:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ MISSY -:- Golden Manor Ashram -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:11:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Passages Video -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:18:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Passages Video -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:55:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Passages Video -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:18:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'm not sure I can watch that, Joe -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:59:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Passages Video -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:15:37 (EST)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: let the dead bury the dead -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:47:02 (EST)
__ Chris -:- No home Xmas visit post Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:58:20 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Joan Apter-Death in Family-Kissimmee ... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:37:32 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Joan Apter-Death in Family-Kissimmee ... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:25:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Vicki... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:57:51 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Sweatshops, not Ashrams -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:19:07 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Sweatshops, not Ashrams -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:19:07 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:12:36 (EST)
__ housemum -:- Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:07:34 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- More revisionism -- Glen Whittaker -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:34:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Ddermot -:- 'I gave a letter to the postman -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:58:07 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Glen ''Whitewash'' Whittaker -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:45:20 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:15:54 (EST)
__ __ __ housemum -:- And I love your anger! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:17:32 (EST)

gerry -:- What shall we do with Catweasel? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:43:53 (EST)
__ janet -:- caterwauling -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:30:47 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- That's a good idea -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:18:55 (EST)
__ Arnold Schwartzebanana -:- hasta la vista, baby! [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:17:17 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- If you can't block him... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:50:36 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: What shall we do with Catweasel? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:10:45 (EST)
__ cq -:- Re: What shall we do with Catweasel? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:07:20 (EST)
__ __ janet the psychic -:- if its anyone in here, it's -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:45:15 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- Blimey, you read a lot into a picture Janet! -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:01:10 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Then there's always ... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:20:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Great site -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:45:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Re: Then there's always ... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:59:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Then there's always ... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:09:43 (EST)
__ Sulla -:- Re: Let him post -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:51:53 (EST)
__ Francesca :~) -:- Ignore him, which people ... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:30:06 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- It's a great laugh -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:57:10 (EST)
__ __ Francesca :~) -:- Actually, he makes exes look bad -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:33:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Very true Francesca -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:46:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Ddermot -:- Re: Actually, he makes exes look bad -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:43:07 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Delete him, my definate opinion -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:36:26 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Don't Delete past posts -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:48:17 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- I'd love to block him permanently -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:17:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Well... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:35:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- You're new here, right? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:04:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- OMG! Gerry, your browser description! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:37:45 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- Re: What shall we do with Catweasel? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:51:45 (EST)
__ __ Zelda -:- agree w/ tonette .Delete [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:23:48 (EST)

Livia Dowte -:- Calling Mike Finch -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:43:40 (EST)

Livia Dowte -:- a satsang story -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:36:19 (EST)
__ Mike Finch -:- Re: a satsang story -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:02:53 (EST)
__ __ Dermot -:- Same for us all Mike -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:19:37 (EST)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Re: Same for us all Mike -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:09:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- a lil meditation -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:05:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: a lil meditation -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:02:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- I hear ya -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:08:21 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Yep -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:45:10 (EST)
__ __ berni -:- memories of PoP, Mike, Milky, Glenn et al -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:27:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: memories of PoP, Mike, Milky, Glenn et al -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:49:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- Sarspirella - yummmeee -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:21:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Kelly -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:36:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Hi Berni -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:56:13 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Great post Dermot [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:20:26 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Re: a satsang story :C) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:45:07 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Enlightenment is in the eye of the beholder. -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:34:34 (EST)
__ __ __ berni -:- Re: Enlightenment is in the eye of the beholder. -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:36:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Chris -:- Cult dynamics - recommended reading: -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:17:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- More recommended reading: -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:53:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Chris -:- Re: More recommended reading: -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:28:52 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- Is it just a coincidence or a joke ... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:48:43 (EST)
__ PatC -:- PayPal not Prempal :C) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:52:43 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: PayPal not Prempal :C) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:58:45 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: PayPal not Prempal :C) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:20:02 (EST)

Anandaji -:- Spellcheck 'amaroo' -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:45:16 (EST)
__ I don't get it -:- Re: Spellcheck 'amaroo' -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:08:22 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Spellcheck 'amaroo' -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:56:46 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- OK, Steve, try spellchecking 'PremPal' ;)(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:48:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: OK, Steve, try spellchecking 'PremPal' ;)(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:25:12 (EST)

McDuck -:- Derek Harper is not Catweasel -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:00:58 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Derek Harper and the Forum -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 23:08:58 (EST)
__ Joe -:- I agree with Jethro: who cares? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:21:40 (EST)
__ __ McDuck -:- Re: I agree with Jethro: who cares? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:38:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Unflushable Turd! -:- LMAO............(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:16:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Right, Mc Duck, agreed (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:21:13 (EST)
__ Catweasel -:- Well, a little sanity -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 05:52:23 (EST)
__ __ CW -:- Re: Well, a little sanity -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 06:51:24 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Who cares? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:02:25 (EST)
__ __ A Slandered One -:- anyine reading the site? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:46:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- One spelling mistake is not bad for a dyslexic. -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:23:06 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Good for you McDuck -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:14:13 (EST)
__ __ CW -:- Re: Good for you McDuck -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 05:57:09 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Well said McDuck, Jethro and Dedorah -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:21:46 (EST)
__ __ __ Catweasel -:- Close Pat, but no cigar!!(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 06:49:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You mean you aren't Pauline Premie!!?? [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:48:00 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- suggestions -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:13:21 (EST)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: suggestions -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:39:04 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- Last Word -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 05:53:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Last Word -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:35:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Last Word -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:03:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You are such a fake -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:59:04 (EST)

Loaf -:- propogation- what was it all about ?? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:25:30 (EST)
__ Bryn Davies -:- Credit where its due m'dear -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:01:32 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: propogation- what was it all about ?? ?? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:37:08 (EST)
__ housemum -:- Re: propogation- what was it all about ?? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:02:58 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: propogation- what was it all about ?? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:00:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- yes I missed all that era -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:29:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: yes I missed all that era -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:29:26 (EST)

From Life's Great -:- Sampuran Anand is dead? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 18:35:47 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Read the thread below.... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:03:58 (EST)

gErRy -:- I hope she changed her drawers after this -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:59:01 (EST)
__ housemum -:- psychotic drivel (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:08:41 (EST)
__ New-Age Redneck -:- Can I ask a question? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:01:56 (EST)
__ __ such -:- well, dogs are into 'nipping' -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:41:59 (EST)
__ Moley -:- Christ - she needs a shag! nt [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:54:23 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Bahkti yoga 101 -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:46:45 (EST)
__ such -:- a stray dog that bites??? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:42:10 (EST)

loaf -:- heres a good pic.. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:14:32 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- It isn't there Loaf! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:24:14 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Get yer act together you two! :) -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:08:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Shut yer face moley !!! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:27:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Hey Loafie - I'm an expert !!!ot -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:41:52 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:31:48 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: No home Xmas visit post Millennium
Message:
This just takes the cake. Now I am the functional equivalent of Osama bin Laden, according to some anonymous premie. These guys are getting more and more desparate, I tell you. I was arguing that Captain Rawat showed no compassion to premies who lost family members when they died, and therefore it might be hard for some of us to be so understanding towards him at this time too, in the aftermath of Sampuranand's death. As an example, I told the story (which I have recounted many times here) about what happened to me after Millennium. I received knowledge in late '72. I was 16. 5 months later, my father committed suicide. I moved into a premie house soon thereafter. In August, '73, we started an ashram. I went on SoulRush and went to Millennium.

When we got back after Millennium, Bill Patterson, definately a close PAM, came to be the community coordinator. A directive came from Maharaji that no one was to go home for Christmas -- and that if you did, you would have to leave the ashram. I begged and cried to Bill to be allowed home to see my mom on Christmas because she was all alone, and deeply saddened by what had happened to my father. He refused to allow me to go, even though she lived 10 minutes away. Others in the ashram went home and were made to move out immediately thereafter.

Now, we have discussed this particular agya/order from Maharaji here many times. There are numerous threads in which other people discussed how they couldn't go home that Christmas either. I wish some of you would chime in here, because this is what this unidentified premie had to say to me about my post:

'And Marianne, try and keep it straight. Whatever confusion that community coordinator was operating under at that time, it was not Maharaji who declined to let you go. If somehow that's how you've got the dots connected, you demonstrate a level of fanciful thinking not much different than the justification for the WTC bombing, as articulated by Osama bin Laden.'

Comments, anyone? The author of this post must be someone who was involved in the Passages and Atlanta training videos, because that is a misrepresentation of DLM history to the nth degree.

When someone starts comparing me to Osama bin Laden, I have to wonder about their sanity. It is exactly this kind of thinking that was displayed by the people around Jim Jones. Thanks for sharing.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:58:21 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Christmas meant nothing to Maharaji
Message:
Now Divali, yes. But to an easterner, this major holiday is just a day like any other. Then his youngest son is born on Dec. 25th and voila! It's now a birthday to celebrate.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:42:36 (EST)
From: Come on Marianne
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: who are you trying to BS?
Message:
Your argument indicting Maharaji for Bill Paterson's actions is specious. So is Bin Laden's argument for attacking everything American. So in that regard you have fallen into a similar thought pattern as Bin Laden. It is a lazy man's way of deflecting blame away from where it belongs in order to justify inherent hatred. Unless you can prove Paterson was directed by a policy set by Maharaji relating to going home for Christmas, you're argument doesn't even make it off the starting line. And neither heresay, deductive reasoning, nor partisan ex-premies' foggy recollections concerning the climate of the day are enough to prove such a policy existed. Sorry Marianne.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 22:54:48 (EST)
From: To: Der Fearer's own Goelbels
Email: None
To: Come on Marianne
Subject: Re: who are you trying to BS?
Message:
To the writer of: 'Come on Marianne':
Every time the world is subjected to a maniacal piece of human scum like Hitler (Der Fuhrer) or Rev Rawat (Der Fearer), you can always count on finding an even more disgusting piece of propagandistic shit right behind them, with sick, evil, twisted lies pouring out of every cavity in their undeserved body. Der Fuhrer had his Goelbels. Shri Fat Boy has you. My only regret is that I will not be able to witness you cringe with horror when Fat Boy's greed-grab world goes thru the final stage of its implosion. You have no idea how disgusting you are. Beating up on a wonderful person like Marianne after all she has shared about her painful past is just about as cowardly and low as it gets. How the hell in the world can you live with yourself? Jesus Christ, you need serious help!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:21:55 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Come on Marianne
Subject: Re: who are you trying to BS?
Message:
I'm afraid you are the BS matey.

How come .....please answer this .....how come premies (and Maharaji himself) always but always deflect blame and criticism for ANYTHING AT ANYTIME UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE away from Maharaji. Is he running the show or not? Does he never know ANYTHING that goes on under his organisations , EVER???? If he's such an accomplished guy, how come then he seems to be so ignorant and incompetent. That's where your argument leads, doesn't it? It's always a mahatmas fault, a premies fault, ex-premies fault, uncle Tom cobbleys fault.

I guess he's whiter than white huh? Perfect even? Pull the other one. Is he responsible for his work? Is he?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:55:10 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Come on Marianne
Subject: Deductive reasoning?
Message:
Maybe you missed the good old days when it was clearly a pecking order and out of our love and respect and devotion we did what we were told by our housefathers because they were given direction from their higher ups who received direction from the Gooster. Or maybe you just have it in for Marianne. No one has to prove anything here, that's the beauty of this site, we were all there experiencing these things first hand. As far as lazy men are concerned, if you're a practicing premie, then you are indeed an expert, as you are following the Lazy Man par excellent.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:10:56 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: It wasn't just Bill Patterson
Message:
Right on mum.

But it wasn't just Bill Patterson. Anyone who was living in the ashram after Millennium will tell you that the directive was that Maharaji gave agya that the ashram premies were not to go visit parents at Christmas. I have been told this by premies living in many different ashrams at that time. So, Bill was not the source of it.

Can we PROVE that Maharaji actually said that, probably not, maybe somebody actually heard him and can say that, but since posters like this premie overlook the volumes of stuff on EPO that Maharaji DID say, that prove that Maharaji is currently a liar and a revisionist, I doubt it would have much effect.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:08:52 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium
Message:
The no going home for Christmas after Millennium was definitely Maharaji's agya, and satsang was given about that event on many the occasion.

After that, it was kind of up to your housefather whether you could do things like that. It was my impression, that for most of my ashram period, people couldn't go to funerals, weddings, etc., because it would cost money, either because of the airfare, etc., or the lost wages, or both, and because Maharaji was constantly eating up the money because of the gradiose stuff he wanted, or the high cost of programs, there usually wasn't any extra money for that.

As I said, I was forbidden from attending my Grandfather's wedding and my little sister's wedding, because there wasn't the money to fly me 2000 miles to attend them. Plus, I was a fairly high wage-earner, and they didn't want to lose my wages, either. If I could have done it without costing the ashram anything, I probably would not have been forbidden from going.

I was ashram housefather for a couple of years in Chicago, and for about a year in San Francisco, and I would never have forbade someone from seeing their family at Christmas (I was known as a "nice guy" housefather, wanting very much to be liked, which is a major problem for me in other areas), but I might not have any money to give them to get there. We donated so much to M and EV and to his "planes" and to "programs" etc., that there wasn't much left over.

Also, Maharaji had his ways of making his wishes known. In 1979, I remember distinctly in Miami on Christmas day being in the satsang hall at DECA, and Maharaji came and gave that really heavy satsang in which he said that if you didn't have devotion for Maharaji you were bound for hell.

There were probably 400 of us there, all the ashram premies in Miami. Afterwards, some initiator, I think Randy Prouty, said that Maharaji wanted it known how 'pleased' he was that we had stayed in Miami with our 'real family' and didn't go visit that other family of ours for the holidays.

So, there wasn't any prohibition against seeing your family at Christmas, but it was clear what Maharaji wanted, and being devotees we wanted it too, or we were supposed to want it, and also there was no money to do anything else anyway.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:27:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I wasn't allowed to see my brother
Message:
When my younger brother, also a premie, became mentally ill and was hospitalised, I was refused permission to visit by the Leeds ashram secretary. I went anyway, and left the ashram for the second and last time. No, of course Maharaji had nothing to do with how his organisation was run.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:00:00 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: let the dead bury the dead
Message:
Hi Marianne,
I had a similar experience, my mother was dying of cancer in 1974, i wanted to visit her and my Work supervisor at the 'divine factory' Nick somebody, said 'Let the dead bury the dead' I went to a higher authority i.e. Nick Seymour Jones who was the head of DLM at the time and he said sure. I saw him at Amaroo in '97 and told him this, he was very relieved that he had given his permission.

What struck me about this anon aplogist poster,is that he/she was so sure that the order had not come from the Goo himself.

'And Marianne, try and keep it straight. Whatever confusion that community coordinator was operating under at that time, it was not Maharaji who declined to let you go'

Having just seen the Passages video, and watched these poor dumb premies taking the fall for him, 'sure it was us who laid all these concepts on him, he never said or implied or ever allowed us to believe that he was the lord of the universe, the satguru, the perfect master of our time...no, never!. I also just watched the video of Nottingham, last year, where he is talking about the early days and how people used to ask him these incredible questions like are you god?....long pause....'NO' (in his best petulant you stooopid or what? voice) and is there life after death?.....'I was just a kid, I said I don't know' ....Like hell you did, he had all the answers and I can get the exact quotes where he talked about how the soul flies until it finds another body etc..etc.

He has conned and brainwashed his current followers into believing it was all their fault...I suppose they forced him to wear that Krishna costume too and do the wobble dance..

Even if he didn't give that particular order that Xmas, he bloody well should have known about it, there's no excuse, he should have taken an interest in how his dedicated followers were living. But, apparently he never even visited an ashram.....All that bullshit about him queueing up to use the bathroom, probably happened once...All those tales he tells about how it was in the early days and the extreme hardship of it all make me really sick. He had a few days of minor inconvenience in his entire career, meantime the premies were living in abject poverty, in overcrowded primitive conditions. They still are.

The last time I was in the Delhi ashram, the contrast between his fortified palace in the middle, and the tatty crowded smelly facilities for the premies became quite a problem for me. But at the time I suppressed those thoughts, after all nothing is too good for the Perfect Goo of our time.

Enough already!
Marianne, don't let the bastards grind you down.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:59:34 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Passages Video
Message:
Kelly,

Right on about the revisionism in the Passages video. It really is infuriating.

Completely agree re Ron Geaves and Glen Whittaker in their misrepresentations about how M's inconveniences in the early days are proof that Maharaji isn't into money and the high life. What nonsense. Also Sandy Collier, sitting there in what appears to be abject, pinched, repression, saying that we all 'projected' the god stuff onto M. We just made it up and 'projected' it and Maharaji had nothing to do with it. Yeah, right.

By far the worst, however, was Tim Gallwey when he says that people who left M did so because they wanted the 'Maharaji Religion' and Maharaji was getting rid of the religion and since they weren't really having the 'experience of their heart' like they didn't practice knowledge the way they were supposed to, they left. Total lie. Total insulting condescension. I frankly wonder if Gallwey actually believed it, or just did it because he felt he needed to tell lies to make Maharaji look better.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 23:53:06 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Inner Circle
Message:
Joe,

The Malibu inner circle (Gallway, Pascotto brothers, Bonthous, etc) as well as the UK branch (Whittaker, Collier, Greaves, etc)
obviously will say and do ANYTHING to please their Lord. How can there be anything wrong with divine deception if you are following direct agya? If they don't, they risk their ultimate nightmare - pissing off the Lord, and being banished. Just ask Bonthous what that feels like!

This is also, in my opinion, what makes them all so incredibly dangerous.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:12:28 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Passages Video
Message:
If Sandy Collier said that on the video then I know from personal experience that she is being economical with the truth. I heard her give satsang quite a number of times at Golden Manor in Hanworth in 1971 where she was quite clear about who he was supposed to be.
I was thinking earlier today that maybe we should publish a newspaper - 'The Undivine Times' where people featured in the days of 'The Divine Times' recant what they said. Just a whimsical thought.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:11:59 (EST)
From: MISSY
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: Golden Manor Ashram
Message:
I travelled to London from America a few months after I received K in June of 1972 on a preplaned itinerary. I attended a Grateful Dead concert at Wimbley the same evening M was speaking in London, but I didn't know he was there. There were no phonetrees, phonemessage lines, or web or website back then A few days later, carrying only a Divine black and white magazine with a crown-on-a-preteen picture on the cover and an address in it for Golden Manor, I took a couple of trains out to the countryside to visit Guru Maharaji's British ashram. I walked from the train station in Hanwell, and arrived at the address. Inside was broken glass, pictures of M all over the floor with leaflets everywhere, trash, garbage and more pictures and leaflets. Abandoned. The place looked ransaced. I learned later that they had just moved the ashram to another town. I continued on my journey and returned to the states, where M and his entire Holy Family had just left my city after a lovely visit. Bad Karma or a lousy travel agent? [I was continued with misguided life for many years.]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:18:29 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: Re: Passages Video
Message:
I'm sure Sandy would now say, because it is the company line in the cult, that she was overly enthusiastic in her description of who Maharaji was. It was all her fault, for about 15 years, until it was no longer acceptable to say Maharaji was God, but certainly acceptable to believe it.

But Sandy, Glen and Ron are economical with the truth in that they leave out all Maharaji's behaviors, until he was at least in his mid-20s, and at least until the mid-80s, when he openly portrayed HIMSELF as God, and even said so. There is a concerted attempt to wipe that from the face of history. That somebody like Ron Geaves, who is supposed to be a university professor, and somebody who should respect historical truth, it isn't just misrepresentation, it's probably professional negilgence, or perhaps malpractice.

And of course, there is no mention by any of those people that Maharaji just last April engaged in both darshan and Arti, both of which imply, and in the case of Arti directly state, that Maharaji is divine and the "superior power in person."

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:55:01 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Passages Video
Message:
Well I have to tell you that the way Sandy carried herself as a saint made a great impression on me and pushed me forward into wanting to receive knowledge. I still think she is probably a saintly person. I didn't connect then that you could be sincere about something but misguided.
It was an unusual collection in those days. Sandy the saint, Glen the schemer, Ron the applied yogi.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:18:03 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: Re: Passages Video
Message:
Right, the culthink now, is to blame one's self for 'projecting' things onto Maharaji and that being the source of the problem.

At one point in the Passages video George Blodwell whisks the locks out of his face and says, with a mostly American accent, that 'I'm probably as guilty as anyone" [for saying Maharaji was divine, or had powers, or whatever (it really isn't said, specifically).] Mostly it's the general 'we' including all those around in the 70s, I guess, who spent their spare time making up this stuff and then broadcasting it all over creation so that now Maharaji is in a "hole" propagation-wise.

So, yes, in that respect, Sandy would probably now say she was mistaken, overenthusiastic, and misunderstood who Maharaji was at the time.

In the Atlanta training, Maharaji more blames the Mahatmas, and extends that to the wild premies at that time, who said all kinds of outrageous things about him, the only specific examples being the absurd 'speaks 48 languages' and the even more absurd 'he walks on water,' neither of which I ever heard from anyone, Mahatma or not, for my entire time in the cult from 1973 - 1983.

But then I traveled in different circles than Maharaji did, and as we have seen, Maharaji does have a problem with telling the truth.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:59:41 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm not sure I can watch that, Joe
Message:
You said: ''Right, the culthink now, is to blame one's self for 'projecting' things onto Maharaji and that being the source of the problem. At one point in the Passages video George Blodwell whisks the locks out of his face and says, with a mostly American accent, that 'I'm probably as guilty as anyone' [for saying Maharaji was divine, or had powers, or whatever (it really isn't said, specifically).''

That actually sent shivers up my spine, knowing him as I do and seeing now with 20/20 hindsight that the man is not sane. Sorry George but you're crazy, guy, and probably always were.

The first satsang I ever attended in the Manchester ashram in March 1973 - Geoge gave satsang (I will never forget it) and said: ''Before I got K I was insane. I would sing Puff the magic dragon in my mind all day long. Now that I have K and M I don't sing in my head all the time.''

I couldn't wait for him to shut up. He was such an obvious fake. I can't say more about him as CAC has already accused me of sleeping with married men. ;)

Actually I can - ever since then I have always thought of that song as ''Poof the magic drag-queen.''

PS Voyeur, if you read this, it's nice to see you posting. You can always run it by me by email first if you think you are being too much of a yenta. You know what I mean. Of course I love gossip but it got me in trouble with the CACroaches.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:15:37 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: Re: Passages Video
Message:
Oops sorry it was Hanwell - been a long time
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:47:02 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: let the dead bury the dead
Message:
Hi again Kelly

I've just posted you down below about the PoP.

Hey, I never saw the Nottingham vid but a premie friend sent a tape of the event to me just recently. Yeah, doesn't he come across as petulant near the end of it? Yeah like you say when he says 'NO' ...condescending arrogant twat hahaha

But as he says he's gonna lose some battles but win the war hahahaha

We are done for .....fighting the Lord....what chance have we got?

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:58:20 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No home Xmas visit post Millennium
Message:
Hi Marianne - I, too, have been through similar conflicts on a number of occasions, all of them during my ashram years.

My dad passed away in the late 70's after a long fight with cancer. His funeral was held the same weekend the Speaker was having an international Guru Puja celebration. I confided my guilty torn feelings to a fellow premie whose 'brilliant' advice to me was 'Let the dead bury the dead'.

During my first ashram year, he and my brothers came to visit me in the ashram one weekend. They were told they could camp in the back yard. They quietly sat against the wall during satsangs, and politely said nothing even though they never liked the Speaker from Day 1.

Of course, at that time I was not allowed to leave the ashram to travel home to visit them, and this deeply saddened me.

I did leave the ashram a few years later, and for about 8 years after I spent every vacation I had going back to visit what remaining family I still had left.

And as of this year, I am looking forward to travelling to all the places I ever wanted to go to where the Speaker never gives events. I've been taking my kids out to visit my brother's family on weekends for some kayaking and dogsledding adventures whatever chance we get, and of course, every Christmas is a family reunion.

I am so glad they've long ago forgiven me and they're ecstatic I've finally come to my senses and exited.

I simply couldn't care less any more what any current cult members think about this. It's my life, and if any cult member sinks so low as to compare me to Osama Bin Laden as a result, then that just shows off their own self-incriminating, characterless gawdy colors.

So to you, Marianne, and anyone else who still feels heat from the insiders, not to worry, just be glad you're out and living free.

Sincerely,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:37:32 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Joan Apter-Death in Family-Kissimmee ...
Message:
Marianne,

I must have turned purple when I read that comment. I certainly saw red.

But, on another note, I remember that during one of the Kissimmee swamp fests 1979??, it was made known that a close family member of Joan Apter's had passed away. I believe it was one of her parents.

There was a lot of talk about it (whether m would allow her to go or if she would stay). If I remember correctly, Captain Rotwat, refused to let her leave the festival and attend the funeral and be with her family.

I am not clear about the details, but I hope someone else is. I remember her giving satsang on the big stage, and talking about surrender vs. family. She ''chose'' surrender. It was clear m refused to let her go. I hope someone can fill in the blanks here.

I remembered this after reading about Patterson not letting you be with your Mom. I did confuse it with the funeral, but it's the same thing. Ten minutes away?

Those of us in the ashram at any point in time from the early 70s through their closings, knows that we were owned by maharaji, he made the calls, and we were lead to believe that being in the ashram was tantamount to always following his agya. That's the way I understood it and I practiced the 3 whatchamacallits, satsang, service and meditation.

Any revisionism about this is pure BS.

While in the ashram, I never was allowed to go home for any of the major holidays. That wouldn't be surrendering nor devotional.

And you don't have to question the sanity of the person who made that remark to you. That person is nuts. Plain and simple.

I opened the can of worms about Sampuranand. I'm not sorry. Just sorry you were so crudely attacked.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:25:48 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Joan Apter-Death in Family-Kissimmee ...
Message:
I remember that very clearly. She was up on stage, going on and on about the terrible tug of war she was feeling about leaving the festival to attend the funeral. It was one of her parents. She asked M for agya, and he said that the Perfect Master never gives agya for someone else's benefit. I'll never forget that.

Then he added, perhaps you can give your mother/father (whichever one hadn't died) my condolences. So off she trotted to the funeral and came right back to the festival, good little premie ji that she was.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:57:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Thanks Vicki...
Message:
Hi Vicki,

Yes, now I remember. She did go to the funeral for one day and came back to give that heavy satsang about surrender.

Thanks...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:19:07 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Sweatshops, not Ashrams
Message:
Marianne,
I wasn't in the ashram until much later, but even then it was understood you weren't to be going home or anywhere else for that matter. I bet Maharaji and Bill Patterson were afraid premies would get a taste of Christmas homelife after being abused and not come back. Greedy and abusive, that's how they ruled.

Last night, on the way home from work, I had a real 'ah ha!' moment conerning ashrams, perhaps from all the wonderful postings lately from housemothers and people's experiences with them. Technically, I was housemother in the short lived ashram but have no tales of glory. The moment I moved in that place the most absurdly hilarious things began to happen, well funny only to me. I drove a car through the garage door knocking it off its hinges, burned the kitchen counter so badly it had to be custom repaired, was told my cooking made them feel like residents of Syria because I could only cook two main dishes, one was couscous with a tomato stew taught by instructor Grace something or other, could not find a job to save my soul and the minute I got out, got one of the hightest paying ones, on and on and on. I was the only female in a house of males! I think they regretted having me, but because I did so much service at the premie house, they insisted. Ha!

My moment of realization last night clearly, in my opinion, is that the ashrams were not 'ashrams' at all, but sweat shops. They were set up that way from the beginning, to get westerners to support Maharaji and his parasitic family. How else were they to get income, they had no skills with which to make it in this country, no degrees, and the premies in India did not have access to money in the same way.
No, it was a case of setting up sweat shops. That's why he had no interest in visiting them, no care for the people's welfare or health who lived there, and could therefore, callously close them when their cash cow capabiliites became a liability.

The problem is, those who entered the ashrams did so either because they wanted to surrender or because they were brow beaten into believing it was part of the knowledge packet. That's what I was told and why I moved in. Of course, this coincides with the years Maharaji needed even more money for Decca and his and Raja Ji's family excesses. But those that were in, were there to surrender. So we are all left with that main premise, and the attrocities seem especially grave. Looking at it from the perspective of they were nothing more than contrived sweatshops, everything that was done makes perfect sense.

No one who owns sweatshops cares about the conditions, abuses or health and welfare of its inhabitants, which are usually the equivalents of slaves. Maharaji promoted mental slavery in these ashrams. They were not places of spiritual environments, where their residents were respected and cared for. Nope, only those that saw through the con, that were on the inside of the DLM hierarchy got cared for.

If those ahrams had been government inspected, they would have been shut down. It's the case of why we received knowledge opposed to why Maharaji came to this country, and subsequently the world, to give it, and that is money and power. If he had to choose between the money or power, he's spontaniously combust.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:19:07 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Sweatshops, not Ashrams
Message:
Marianne,
I wasn't in the ashram until much later, but even then it was understood you weren't to be going home or anywhere else for that matter. I bet Maharaji and Bill Patterson were afraid premies would get a taste of Christmas homelife after being abused and not come back. Greedy and abusive, that's how they ruled.

Last night, on the way home from work, I had a real 'ah ha!' moment concerning ashrams, perhaps from all the wonderful postings lately from housemothers and people's experiences with them. Technically, I was housemother in the short lived ashram but have no tales of glory. The moment I moved in that place the most absurdly hilarious things began to happen, well funny only to me. I drove a car through the garage door knocking it off its hinges, burned the kitchen counter so badly it had to be custom repaired, was told my cooking made them feel like residents of Syria because I could only cook two main dishes, one was couscous with a tomato stew taught by instructor Grace something or other, could not find a job to save my soul and the minute I got out, got one of the hightest paying ones, on and on and on. I was the only female in a house of males! I think they regretted having me, but because I did so much service at the premie house, they insisted. Ha!

My moment of realization last night clearly, in my opinion, is that the ashrams were not 'ashrams' at all, but sweat shops. They were set up that way from the beginning, to get westerners to support Maharaji and his parasitic family. How else were they to get income, they had no skills with which to make it in this country, no degrees, and the premies in India did not have access to money in the same way.
No, it was a case of setting up sweat shops. That's why he had no interest in visiting them, no care for the people's welfare or health who lived there, and could therefore, callously close them when their cash cow capabiliites became a liability.

The problem is, those who entered the ashrams did so either because they wanted to surrender or because they were brow beaten into believing it was part of the knowledge packet. That's what I was told and why I moved in. Of course, this coincides with the years Maharaji needed even more money for Decca and his and Raja Ji's family excesses. But those that were in, were there to surrender. So we are all left with that main premise, and the attrocities seem especially grave. Looking at it from the perspective of they were nothing more than contrived sweatshops, everything that was done makes perfect sense.

No one who owns sweatshops cares about the conditions, abuses or health and welfare of its inhabitants, which are usually the equivalents of slaves. Maharaji promoted mental slavery in these ashrams. They were not places of spiritual environments, where their residents were respected and cared for. Nope, only those that saw through the con, that were on the inside of the DLM hierarchy got cared for.

If those ahrams had been government inspected, they would have been shut down. It's the case of why we received knowledge opposed to why Maharaji came to this country, and subsequently the world, to give it, and that is money and power. If he had to choose between the money or power, he's spontaniously combust.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:12:36 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium
Message:
To the fucking, assholish, moronic, evil-hearted SS-pseudo-premie (not to be confused with the vast majority of decent, respectful, Hitler-Jugen-premies for whom I have loads of respect and compassion) I have only this to say: You can just go to hell and stay the hell off EPO, you miserable piece of shit. How DARE, (I repeat,) how DARE you impugn or insult Marianne, one of the nicest ladies I've ever had the good fortune to meet who not only is well disciplined and extremely careful with her speech, as most successful lawyers like herself are, but is in a far better position, having been there, to know what she is talking about, having been the one who suffered from Bill's cruel and inhuman order (not to mention the fact: do you have ANY IDEA how HIGH a level of intelligence it takes to be a successful lawyer, you fucking moron?) Get the hell off this website, you piece of shit. It's jerks like you that give the majority of well-behaved and respectful premies a bad name. Asshole!

Please, Gerry, block this jerk. There is nothing to be gained by allowing this kind of outrageous and insulting ignorance to besmirch our virtual home. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:07:34 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium
Message:
Dear Marianne, Sorry to hear of the name calling you are being subjected to. It is part and parcel of the terror that people feel when the truth is finally dawning on them.

This whole revisionist thing is very interesting to me. It's a classic reaction throughout history. I have a friend whose mother was a Nazi Youth member and she tells the story of how warm and fuzzy Adolf was, and what a wonderful job he did for the German people, and especially analogous to this, how Hitler had NOTHING to do with the persecution of the Jews, it was a misinterpretation of his orders by the upper eschelons in the Nazi party.

Not only were we not allowed to go home for holidays and family events, when I was a premie in the early '70's, not yet in the ashram, but in Denver and active with the honchos, my child was an infant. I wanted to go to India on the Jumbo Jets and serve the Perfect Master in his mission of spreading Divine Knowledge. I asked if it would be okay, since I had a child. The honcho I asked said he would check with The Living Lord and let me know. A few days later I was told that if I wanted to go I should go in order to do service, and that in order to do service I should wean my still nursing baby, giving me more time to be available for the agya of the Satguru, the Embodiment of Perfection. Guess what I did? I weaned my baby, we both went to India, and when he nearly died and had to be hospitalized for most of our time there, guess how many premies came to see us? None. Guess what the Omniscient One said or did. Nothing.

I think it is intentional on Rawat's part that the hierarchy was designed so that he could duck out on all responsibility. Most of us had no access to the Guru Greater Than God. He designed a network of (supposedly) trustworthy PAMS who were part of a channel to those of us in the Premie Youth. When I wanted to know how to Surrender to His Lotus Feet, I couldn't ask him, I can't tell you how many letters I sent to his Divine Grace asking for his help in making hard decisions both in and out of the ashram. Were they ever answered? I never got a response even from a secretary of the Incarnation of Perfect Knowledge. I had to rely on the fact that the honchos in charge of my life (which I had Surrendered to his Perfect Lotus Feet) would let me know what the Lord wanted. And now, in the revisionist retelling, these people that were the closest to the Goo, who were given his blessings to follow his wishes, are being blamed and called 'confused.' Talk about perfect, it is a perfect example of cult-think. Anyone who isn't convinced that they are in cult should see red flags waving on this one. If Rawat had any integrity at all, he would admit to making mistakes and apologize to all who suffered. That would be a good beginning.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:34:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: More revisionism -- Glen Whittaker
Message:
Great post. I can just feel it by reading it.

I loved too, what you said about Maharaji never being available to answer a question. This is another very revisionist point in the Passages -- A Master's Journey.

In that video, Glen Whittaker, now very portly in comparison to how I remember him, and who probably does not have a hair piece, says, in connection to memories of 1971, that one of the great things about Maharaji EXTENDING TILL THIS DAY, is that if you have a question you can just ask him and he will answer it. That is such bullshit.

Like you said, Maharaji was NEVER available to answer questions from any of us. He not only didn't know who I was or that I was alive, when I was freaked and considering leaving his cult, I sent him a number of letters, some registered, and one hand-delivered, with lots of questions, and he never answered any of them -- ever. We now learn from MacGregor that those letters are normally thrown in the trash.

I told somebody once that I lived in Maharaji's ashram for 9 years and I never spoke to him, nor him to me. Not once. That person was amazed, and it was the first time I thought about how odd that was.

Right, Glen, he was REALLY available to answer questions. Just a regular guy, so down to earth and caring of us as individuals. You are such a liar Glen. How do you live with yourself?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:58:07 (EST)
From: Ddermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'I gave a letter to the postman
Message:
he put it in his sack. Very early in the morning he brought that letter back. They wrote upon it, RETURN TO SENDER, address unknown, no such number, no such zone'

Me too, never heard a dicky bird whenever I wrote to the 'Great one'.

I did once get a reply from the secretary of the Guru Charand Singh of the Radhi Saomis.It was obvious that my letter was read as the reply related to the very specific points I raised.

As for Maharaji responding.....well, fat chance of that.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:45:20 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Glen ''Whitewash'' Whittaker
Message:
I'm gonna sit right down
and write myself a letter
and make believe it came from
You Know Who.

''I'm not here to answer questions,'' Maharaji, San Francisco, 2001

''I don't know you name and I don't WANT to know your name,'' Maharaji, Cote Ivoire, 2000

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:15:54 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: No home Xmas visit post Millennium
Message:
Hi Housemom. I absolutely love your contributions to EPO. Thank you so much. Keep them coming. Now you know why I love to refer to M as: Der Fearer. The shoe sure fits him.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:17:32 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: And I love your anger! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:43:53 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What shall we do with Catweasel?
Message:
Let him post?

Delete him?

What do you think?

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:30:47 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: caterwauling
Message:
you ought to forward the most odious troll posts to JHB to be specially set off in their own area on EPO as demonstrations of 'worst of the forum' and illustrative of what maharaji's most militant, crude, grotesque agents do in the name of their leader.

it's too bad. I really like cats. but then again i like mice and birds, and it's so painful to watch them hunt and kill them. It's just their nature.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:18:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: That's a good idea
Message:
Yeah, I'm with you this time, Janet. We could start with Catweasel's threat that the only way to deal with me is with a baseball bat. I've got it and others if John's interested. Why not? Unseemly but then so is lots of anthropology.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:17:17 (EST)
From: Arnold Schwartzebanana
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: hasta la vista, baby! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:50:36 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: If you can't block him...
Message:
then delete him.

He's had much to much time here. He disrupts threads, he's abusive, he's a sicko, and a sadist.

I would definitely block him but if it doesn't work, delete every post.

How many hours have we spent discussing this jerk? And for how many years? This is getting very, very old.

My Unhumble Opinion,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:10:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What shall we do with Catweasel?
Message:
Put him in the long-boat till he's sober. :C)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:07:20 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What shall we do with Catweasel?
Message:
I don't suppose Catweasel would be one of these five? would he?

Any Aussies out there care to vouch for these guys?
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:45:15 (EST)
From: janet the psychic
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: if its anyone in here, it's
Message:
anthony ives. the others don't have it in their attitude or their 'aura'. but anthony carries all the requisites.
and look at the discography. look at the titles. not the album titles, the song titles.
i think you've busted him fair and square. he's got an attitude about as holy as david roupell. you know, that supercilious, fuck-you crassness that sneers 'humility is for suckers'?
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:01:10 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet the psychic
Subject: Blimey, you read a lot into a picture Janet!
Message:
I couldn't find anything on that site that actually quoted Mr Ives, so I guess you're going purely by appearances and song titles?

Hmmmm, not good enough for a conviction, IMO. But, as Gerry says, he's outa here, so why worry?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:20:38 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Then there's always ...
Message:
Then there's always this guy
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:45:29 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Great site
Message:
I already saw the other Catweasel site a month or two back on the forum. Cute musician, hmmmm.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:59:50 (EST)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Then there's always ...
Message:
LOL, cq. How ya doin'?

KIA

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:09:43 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Re: Then there's always ...
Message:
Hi KIA,

Yup, I'm good. Yourself?

This Catweazle (note the subtle difference in spelling) was one of my favourite children's TV shows when I was in my teens (sheeesh - that dates me). Hope you like the pic above of his familiar - 'Touchwood' the toad.

Don't know if you're familiar with the storyline, but Catweazle (admirably played by Geoffrey Bayldon, one of the very few UK actors ever to turn down the chance of playing Dr Who) was a somewhat befuddled mediaeval sorcerer whose attempts at magic somehow transported him into the 20th century. Only this misplaced magician didn't know how to get back to his own time.

His attempts at dealing with 20th century technology spawned some delightful trans-temporal catch-phrases, such as:

The telling-bone (= telephone), and

Electrickery (coined when he first saw a light-bulb - 'the sun itself captured and placed in a bottle by modern magic')!

IMO, a story ripe for revival, if current HarryPottermania is anything to go by. Steven Spielberg take note!

BTW, KIA - fret not. The cat is still in the bag.

Cheers (cryptically),

cq

Oh, and for any Brit or Aussie afficionados of the original Catweazle, if you've got audio on your PC, you might enjoy clicking on these two links:

Catweazle theme tune

and

Catweazle conjuring the spirits
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:51:53 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Let him post
Message:
Let him talk. I think it's good to know what he has to say.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:30:06 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Ignore him, which people ...
Message:
... just can't seem to do. When he says something reasonable, talk to him. When he doesn't, leave it alone. This is the only bulletin board I've been on where people just can't seem to do that.

But if it gets awful, by all means, delete it.

==f

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:57:10 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's a great laugh
Message:
reading his posts and I'm sure he does more to convince people that he's in a cult than we ever could Gerry:)

If he doesn't do anything vicious or illegal then I guess he has as much right to his opinions as I have to mine. I don't read all his posts but every now and then when I do, I invariably am amazed hahaha. So funny. A bit sad too,though. EDIT : on a more serious note, having read Tonnettes post....she has a point worth considering.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:33:00 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Actually, he makes exes look bad
Message:
The responses he gets when he gets someone to lose their temper or their patience with him are surly to say the least. They do not cast exes in a good light. People say nasty things to him; people snap at him.

And a new poster has no idea about the history, and may even think everyone's picking on him.

He's smart, and plays it for all it's worth.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:46:00 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Very true Francesca
Message:
I know I fell for that little trap. He played me like a finely tuned violin.
But, it still felt good to tell him that he was a mother fucker, because he is.
How did it make me look? Like an ignorant angry bitch.
Did anyone have any idea of what he did? What made me so mad?
Nope, the dialogue was well buried, off the page, not yet archived.

You're right. He's playing us for all that it's worth.

Good point, Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:43:07 (EST)
From: Ddermot
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: Actually, he makes exes look bad
Message:
Yeah you're right of course.....there have been times when I've wanted to swear at him, grab him by the lapels and give him a good dust down ( if only I could get hold of him in real life) :)

Eventually though I realised he wasn't worth getting upset over but it's true he ENJOYS winding people up and for people without knowledge of his history he'd obviously come across as the VICTIM as opposed to the sneaky merchant he really is.

....Actually I couldn't care less if he was deleted...

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:36:26 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Delete him, my definate opinion
Message:
Gerry, he adds nothing but disharmony here and I saw him do some very hurtful posts to Abi.
He is not reachable, has no intention of sincerity.
In fact, may I remind you of what John MacGregor said, he's here to disrupt and hijack important topics and dialogue. He fills up forum space with incoherant jibberish. His posting quickly buries wonderful topics and information into the archives.
And most importantly, there are alot of virgin posters here, new comers, do you think they will have any ability to deal with the likes of Cat Weasel?
Delete him and everything he has ever posted. It is no loss, what-so-ever.
He should of been blocked permanently long, long ago.

I hope you do it.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:48:17 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Don't Delete past posts
Message:
Tone, they're buried but useful for future use and documentation.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:17:37 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I'd love to block him permanently
Message:
Catweasel can get around my blocks. I can't keep him out that way; I can only delete his posts as they appear.

I have asked him to stop posting and he won't. Maybe someday when we discover his identity-and we will- he will be forced to take responsibility for his actions.

I know we will find out who he is because given his big mouth and penchant for bragging he has probably told several people his little secret. Undoubtably one of them will eventually expose him. In fact this may have already happened and I'm waiting for verification so I can take legal action against 'Catweasel.'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:35:44 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Well...
Message:
Oh well, I don't Know. I will tell you that sometimes premie or not premie friends, or anyone, can get in your nerves. But I'm not really against premies, I'm sure they were looking for the same truth we value, but there is a lot of confusion in that M world, M is the darkness pretending to be the light. They have to learn about that darkness and be able to separate it from themselves, to appreciate the light that will remain in them. As we luckily did with your help and all the others here in EPO.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:04:53 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: You're new here, right?
Message:
This premie troll has been playing a game here for as long as I've been reading the forum. I too, gave him the benefit of doubt for a long, long time. I thought I had gotten to know him. Was hoping that he was somehow salavable as an individual. I witnessed some deplorable behavior by CW here on this forum to other posters. He's smart. He stalks posters, reads their posts, posts some innoculous stuff to you, lures you into thinking that he's allright. Doesn't outright woo you but gets you a little on his side. And then he pushes your button. The one he's discerned from stalking you or the one you told him about. His whole agenda here and make no mistake, he does have one, is to:
Make ex premies look like hateful bitter people
Use lots of forum space so topics are archived quickly
Discredit your experience

CW spends lots more time here than I do and I wonder about that.
He's completely 100% paranoid about anyone identifying him.
He writes lots of jibberish for filler.
And he is not interested in any real relationships here.

Be careful in your dealings with him. Don't fall for his trap now that I've told you about it. So much is here that he has read, if he's not interested in either exiting or leaving us alone then what exactly is he doing? And he has been here for years!
Makes you wonder, eh?
But he's not confused, CW knows exactly what he is doing!

Take care and think twice before engaging him.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:37:45 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: OMG! Gerry, your browser description!
Message:
You should of warned me! That's so funny and took me so completly by surprise I choked on my coffee. What a laugh!

Cat Weasel, what a waste of energy. I know you have tried to block him
I just worry about the newcomers. I hope he leaves them alone.
You do good work Gerry and have a real talent for it I might add.

Still laughing,
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:51:45 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What shall we do with Catweasel?
Message:
Only let him post saturdays and sundays, there is only so much of the chicken shit smell one can take I reckon.
Personally I could take him more if he wasn't so bogus, but that'll never change while he has the chance to lick gm's arse and socialize with him.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:23:48 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: agree w/ tonette .Delete [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:43:40 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Calling Mike Finch
Message:
Please read the next post.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:36:19 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a satsang story
Message:
This is for Mike Finch - if you are there. Once, a long time ago in London at the Palace of Peace, I remember you giving a satsang where you told of an experience involving Maharaji sitting on your bed and talking to you all night. You said that at the end of that night you knew without any doubt that he really was the lord. This really affected me (I still remember it vividly) and deeply reinforced my belief in Maharaji as the Perfect Master, God in human form etc. (To be honest, my experience of Knowledge at that time, although good and sometimes deep wouldn't necessarily on their own have led me to believe he was God.)

Can you remember the occasion you were telling of, and have you since revised your interpretation of what happened? I would be really interested to know this!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:02:53 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: MikeFinch@compuserve.com
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: a satsang story
Message:
Hi Livia

Yes, I remember it well, both the original episode and telling it many times afterwards.

I went out to India in 1970 to see the Lord of the Universe, and damn me if I was not going to find him !! There was no secret teaching - I was a male-gopi and when this guy came and sat on my bed all night (well, not all night really, probably just a few hours) and did his best to convince me, with all the great Indian mahatmas sitting outside my door thinking I must be Arjuna reincarnated to receive such a boon, then what could I do but believe ??

I believed it for some 30 years, but I don't believe it anymore ! What can I say ?? My apologies to you and to everyone else that I laid all my stuff on for 30+ years. The only mitigating thing I can say, is that my inner search brought me to Maharaji, my inner search inspired some of my satsang, and my inner search is still present and led me to leave Maharaji and Knowledge - so I was hijacked for 30 years, but at least I saw the light eventually !!

Take care - email me if you want to - email above

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:19:37 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Same for us all Mike
Message:
We all could apologise for stuff we've said to people in the past.

You just had a higher profile that's all. You were never arrogant about your profile and always came across as someone who gave more credence to the inner stuff ( whatever that really is)than to the organisations power politics. Quite an acheivement under the circumstances.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:09:41 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Same for us all Mike
Message:
'I believed it for some 30 years, but I don't believe it anymore ! What can I say ?? My apologies to you and to everyone else that I laid all my stuff on for 30+ years. The only mitigating thing I can say, is that my inner search brought me to Maharaji, my inner search inspired some of my satsang, and my inner search is still present and led me to leave Maharaji and Knowledge - so I was hijacked for 30 years, but at least I saw the light eventually !!'

yep, sounds familiar! btw, I personally still like a lil meditation (after about 3 decades of practicing, too) - but I've been doing it my own way for about 10 years. what a relief to let go of all the extraneous maha cult elephant dung ladus and head-trips!! I found da key - for me! hahaha

but, yes, there are regrets - a shattered family, an embittered and estranged son, a promising career essentially curtailed and thrown down the tubes for decades, such inculcated low self-esteem that I was a helpless doormat for more aggressive and abusive people time after time, and so forth.

But, we learn, pick up the pieces of our lives, fashion and rebuild our lives as we please, and move forward -- in full ownership of our personal experience, which no interloper can ever lay claim to mastery over again - except our own true selves.

Now we can breathe in peace, at last -- our breath, our inner energy, our lives. And nobody else can lay claim to what is Our birthright. IF life is indeed a gift, then I simply give thanks to the essence sustaining me (and all creation) -- where credit would really be due, after all, and not to any cult fascists who would hijack our individual planes, deceitfully appropriate our labor and material resources, and shackle, muzzle, and degrade us with false chains and dog collars.

Egalitarian freedom feels very Very good!

Peas and lentils,

da lil swami

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:05:07 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: a lil meditation
Message:
Back in my premie days I was big into meditation, much more than satsang or service, and I wonder sometimes if that wasn't what helped me escape the cult. The experience of meditation was clearly inside me and gave me confidence in myself that no power-hungry honcho could wrestle away with guilt-tripping diatribes (aka satsang). And while I haven't done the eyeball squeezing, ear-plugging, tongue-contortions of the gooster in many decades, like you, lil swami, I practice (non-sectarian) meditation daily.

I must say that I am really bothered that those of us who were/are held hostage by the mindfuck of the Fraudulent One equate meditation with all-his-nonsense. The goo has appropriate it for his own exploitative purposes. I have heard the theory by some exes that meditation kept them in the throes of confusion, just for the record, my experience was the opposite.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:02:50 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: a lil meditation
Message:
I agree with you, Housemom, at least for me. I feel that I became independent because I emjoyed meditating. Most of the current PWKs hardly ever meditate but just get their kicks from watching videos and going to see the goober. However I had to move away from the goobers techs because of the connotations of devotion to him.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:08:21 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: I hear ya
Message:
yep, and if one does breath meditation independently [for instance], all by itself, away from a cult, without the external bhakti or inculcated concepts -- one gets a whole different perspective, that isn't skewered and interpreted via others' outside belief systems, catechisms, or diatribes.

however, back in the 1970s, sometimes I 'escaped' into meditation, when perhaps I should have been dealing more effectively with the pressing concerns of subsistence in the physical world. so, there needs to be a healthy balance. now, I take care of business, then meditate before I go to sleep at night [or after I get up in the morning].

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:45:10 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Yep
Message:
Livia, Thanks for the memory. The Palace of Peace indoctrination camp really was a very, very strange environment indeed.

In my case I was full-time at the PoP as an aspirant from Spring 73 to Nov 73 when I finally received the “Knowledge” I’d been waiting for over many lifetimes. Though until Spring 73 I wasn’t fully aware of my waiting!

I lived in a bedsit just around the corner from the hallowed establishment and would work in the kitchen from about 7am to midnight, seven days a week. I’d already packed in college some time ago due to too much acid and was happy to pack in a crap job as a “gofer” in some fashionable flats near the Dorchester hotel, in order to move near the PoP and sign on the dole haha.

So satsang would be pumped into me anytime I could break from the kitchen. Morning, afternoon and of course the main evening programme. So yeah, Mahatmas, Finchy, NSJ,Ron G,Milky et al (but don’t remember you Anth!) would do their Holy duty.

Without stretching the point, I can imagine gullible, impressionable young Muslim kids of today being brainwashed by some fruitcake Mullah/ Al Q rep till they come to a point where they think “Hey, If I kill myself and in the process take out a planeload of westerners then eternal paradise awaits!” Hold on a sec though, I’m not saying Maharaji-ism is akin to terrorism but the basic indoctrination is similar I think.

An aspirant really is asked to suspend critical judgement and learn to yearn for something that they don’t even know yet and trust that Prem Pal is the only one who can really bestow the “Gift” . This is the CENTRAL premise of Maharajis work and always has been, whether it was during the intense period I entered, K Lite period or the new K Lite version of today “Self-K”. As I say, you long for something deep, deep inside (even if you are not conciously aware of it……no matter a little bit of satsang propaganda will soon fix that) and only one person really has the power to give you it. Sorry Sir Dave, the Ł2 meditation book available in Sainsburys supermarket just won’t do the trick. Why, even David Roupell said recently, it’s really not the same without Maharajis “grace”.

In those early days, if you wanted to receive that elusive K that is, it really was essential to keep your mind and brain open to whatever gibberish was spewed out by the official channels ( remember that term? Channels. The Mahatmas and honchos were Maharajis channels) but keep it firmly CLOSED to any doubt whatsoever. Mr Rawat Moses himself included that in his “ commandments” i.e. “Leave no room for doubt in your mind”. It was also essential to understand that though the “experience” was within you, only the “Perfect Master” could reveal it to you. Of course it was drummed in that M was the perfect Master. So, “open up your heart to the universe of Love and he will fill you up …….the Lord of the universe has come to us today”

Hopefully ( hopefully for M that is), at the end of the indoctrination process you’d be so convinced that your subjective FAITH was actually ULTIMATE REALITY, it would carry you through thick and thin, doubts and uncertainties, for the rest of your life. Look how effective the indoctrination is! It carried me for most of my adult life. Some are STILL devoted Rawat! Powerful stuff. Of course, Maharaji realised some time ago the business approach had to change but it’s basically the same deal. Plebs receive, he gives, they should be grateful. Anything good is down to him (DR plays good guitar because he was inspired by Maharaji and he’s thanked M for that over on LG, for example) but anything bad in life is down to …..well, I’m not exactly certain what the “Self-K” buzzword is nowadays but it used to be “mind” hahaha.

I don’t wholly blame M though. I reserve some blame for myself. When some premies first took me to the PoP , my gut instinct on seeing people bowing down at an altar, huge pics of M and past perfect masters and the general intense devotional atmosphere really turned me off. My gut instinct told me this was a weird cult. I didn’t listen to my gut call though and entered the strange world of Rawat. Thankfully I’m out now but jeeze….if only I’d walked away from the outset!( recent edit: but life is life and what's happened has happened.....if I had walked away then my daughter wouldn't be alive today trekking around Oz with her boyfriend.....and I'm glad she's alive!!!!! also, have met some good people along the way....funny ole life huh?)

Regarding Mike F’s revelations, yup I too remember that story! I remember him saying he saw M crash a jeep into a tree and thought to himself “this kid ain’t perfect”. Also I remember him relating how he sat on M’s chair in the grounds with his feet up and all the Indians totally freaking in horror. Then, yes, the story of M coming to his bedroom, talking all night and suddenley “Perfect Mastership” was revealed. I too often wondered about the nitty gritty details…..what was said, what went on etc …..these days though I don’t really give a fuck. I know if I heard a recording of all the bullshit I’VE said over the years I’d laugh my head off. I think we’ve all spewed out Maharajism bullshit. It’s sad it still goes on but there you go.

Wait one damn minute though. Everything I've just written is a LIE!!!!! Just ask Maharaji himself or any of the present day followers. They'll tell you none of that went on! No, no , no ....it's not a cult. Jim and Joe et al are the real cult leaders.

Anyway, cheers.

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:27:53 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: memories of PoP, Mike, Milky, Glenn et al
Message:
Hi Dermot,
Now that I know you worked in the kitchen from about 7am to midnight I know that you were responsible for some of the weclome drinks and veggie snacks that were probably the only wholesome food I ate most of the time. Yeh, it was 'all or nothing' for us in those days but I do take issue with your comparison with Al Q types. The majority of us gullable fools were dedicated 'love and peace' freaks who would have ran a mile if ever there was a mention of violence etc. In a way that's what's so sad - all the gentle people highjacked by M when maybe we could have done something useful instead.
But I know just what you mean when you say but life is life and what's happened has happened.....if I had walked away then my daughter wouldn't be alive today trekking around Oz with her boyfriend.....and I'm glad she's alive!!!!! also, have met some good people along the way....funny ole life huh?
Same for all of us I guess - but who know what would have happened without Maharji's Mumbo Jumbo - maybe some of us would have found a niche in society rather than being retarded by however many years we spent under the influence?
And Mike,
I too remember those stories you told, which we were all enthralled by. When Dermot says 'I know if I heard a recording of all the bullshit I’VE said over the years I’d laugh my head off.' I cringe and think that rather than laughing I would die of embarrassment.
So you're not alone in falling for the old guru routine :)
cheers
berni
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:49:11 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: memories of PoP, Mike, Milky, Glenn et al
Message:
Hi Berni,
I used to help run the juice and snack stall at the PoP. We used to make apple juice and sarspirilla and other wholesome fare. That was in between setting up the stage...arranging the flowers, hoovering the carpet etc. So at least I did some good!
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:21:07 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Sarspirella - yummmeee
Message:
Hi Kelly,
Belated thanks for serving up those nice drinks.
About the best thing happening at the PoP, although we couldn't admit that at the time ;)
berni
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:36:17 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly
Message:
Hi Kelly

When did you do the stall? You mean the upstairs kitchen/sales hatch? When I was there it was run by a premie girl Julie (she was a great gal, often wonder what became of her. She was married to a PoP electrician.....Dave, I think.....had a little kid and lived in a van haha most of the time)

Really it was just Julie, myself as permanent staff and day by day helpers. That was spring to November, 1973.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:56:13 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Hi Berni
Message:
Don't get me wrong....I know we weren't budding terrorists :) Just the process of being indoctrinated leading to very deep attachment for almost a lifetime. That's all.

Good to hear from you as usual.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:20:26 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Great post Dermot [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:45:07 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: a satsang story :C)
Message:
Livia

Like you I remember that piece very well. Also remember many others saying similar things (Ron Geaves, Nick Seymour-Jones, Glen W ......) Gee wiz, what enlightened beings we had the priviledge to be with.

Now where are the tape recordings I have of those wonderful inspired days :D

much love
ExP

irony rools ok? ;)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:34:34 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Enlightenment is in the eye of the beholder.
Message:
Hi Livia and Exp,

I too, sat in the Palace of Peace, and elsewhere, for many years, telling folk like yourself (premies) that the Lord was indeed walking amongst us. I had seen him and, further more, I'd experienced it. And in case there was any doubt, maybe a little darshan story as ultimate proof. I believed it. Just like we all did. And I certainly did more than my fair share of propagating the myth I'd become ensnared in.

But the explanation is simple. I was in a cult. I was brainwashed. I'd had a guru trip laid on me. Sure I was acid-scrambled, and looking for it. But the trap was there waiting for me to step into it. I had my mind elsewhere, and I was young and gullible.

Didn't the same thing happen to all of us?

Anth the enlightened being and legend in his own lunch-hour.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:36:23 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Enlightenment is in the eye of the beholder.
Message:
Hi Anth,
Didn't we all revel in telling folk
'that the Lord was indeed walking amongst us. I had seen him and, further more, I'd experienced it' It was great to think that we knew and could help others find the answer to life's problems. I guess if we hadn't tried our best to let people know then we would have been worse through our selfishness.
We wanted the world to know - as much as if we had discovered the cure for cancer.( or even more ).
berni
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:17:08 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cult dynamics - recommended reading:
Message:
Hi Anth, that's pretty much my take as well on what a lot of the DLM/EV/MJ phenomena was all about.

After feeling like my intelligence had been insulted when a few chasms in THE CULT's reasoning got blasted to the surface, I decided to start reading EPO. I was reading through John Macgregor's posts where he mentioned Steve Hassan's book 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' - it raised my curiosity because he had touched on some amazing insights. So I thought I'd read the book for myself.

I highly recommend it for any pwk's and exiters alike who ever wondered or are wondering if possibly EV could be a cult in any way, and if so, exactly what are the cult dynamics in play that had us all walking down the garden path for decades.

It laid a lot of questions (not only for me, but still currently raised in this Forum) laid them all to rest very quickly. I think it escalated my exit process really fast with a turbo charger behind it.

When I first started reading it, my thoughts were ‘yea, but he's not talking much about DLM/EV' but as I continued reading I started seeing many amazing parallels - ‘bells & zingers going off' as Brian Smith coined it.

Actually, only in one small section does he refer to a DLM case involving a premie whose ex-girlfriend had left the cult but neither he nor anyone else still involved in the cult would bother to ask her why she left, and his advice to this premie was to call her up and find out why. I always wondered myself why premies (as I was for a long time) are afraid to engage anyone else's ‘confusion', ‘doubts', even if a premie's mindset is ‘why should I interrupt a nice experience with something that will rob me of it'?

In the book all the deceptive cult recruitment tactics are exposed; all the cult programming /repetitive indoctrination techniques (satsang) are demonstrated. It explains how all the instilled fears (never leave room for doubt in your mind) are deeply programmed to keep one locked inside the belief system. Other parallels are the expectations to support the cult both financially and with personal skills/resources (service) and to recruit new members (spread the word), the idolization and unquestioning devotion to the group's leader (in almost all cases a rich one, and in many cases, a leader who sincerely believes he is indeed a special leader or the messiah). It even explains how cult members leave their own identity/personality behind and in its place adopt their new cult personality with all its deeply imbedded thoughts, beliefs and behaviours; and why whenever someone leaves a cult, they feel their own original personal identity resurfacing.

The irony of it all for me was I would, like all the other premies, deny to the teeth that EV was a cult, the reason being that instead of a belief, we had our own individual experience (which, by the way, we are now no longer allowed to rely on when propagating knowledge!). Yea, yea, that just goes to show how short a cult member's ability to think past all these program lines go. Not only does THE SPEAKER not have exclusive ownership to the meditation techniques (a lot of other meditators have their own experience of same as well), but what about the immense belief system around it that premies have adopted/bought into along with it as well?

Near the end of the book, Steve Hassan just touches on suggestions for the exit process, one of which is to make a chronological calendar of all the events significant to you and all the ‘grating, uncomfortable moments' you can remember during your involvement.

Right now, I'm still working on my own calendar. It's making me acutely aware of the two different sets of eyes from which my involvement can be seen (one set being through my cult member's mindset/understanding or ‘eyes'; the other through my own individual original personality/perceptions). In any case, it's making quite the revealing revisiting read for myself - it seems to be an interesting mixture of the two perceptions, with some obvious clashes of perceptions, some sad regrets and some side-ripping hilarity as well.

The other books on my reading list but haven't yet gotten around to yet are Margaret Singer's (see La-Ex's post below), The Guru Papers (Kramer & Alstad) and The Blind Watchmaker (Richard Dawkins).

Chris (I remember how to read and I love to read cult-censored poison! :)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:53:08 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Chris
Subject: More recommended reading:
Message:
Hi Chris. If you are interested in cult reading that opens your eyes, have your local bookstore find you a copy of 'Raven'. It is the biography of Jim Jones, and the most complete and accurate account of Peoples Temple that has ever been published. The stories of how Peoples Temple grew, how Jim Jones ran the group, how it started with the best intentions of changing the world, and how it all disintegrated, parallels the story of Rotwat and DLM/EV. Cynthia recently read it and was haunted by how similar the stories of the two groups are.

Tim Reiterman, one of the authors, was shot by PT members in Guyana, who then went and committed suicide. It is a real page turner.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:28:52 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: More recommended reading:
Message:
Thanks Marianne - I will definitely add that to my list.

I think personality idolization also compounds the crime of cult deception. I've fallen quite out of love with the Speaker's arrogant jokes (and am unimpressed with his musicianship, I might add). But last year at Amaraoo I saw distinct examples of the speaker swaying the crowd beyond decent behaviour. Example: once in his tiringly-joking way, the speaker mocked the poor sound connection to his mike as Aussie inefficiency. Right away the crowd starting booing (and not at the Speaker). But in his last talk, he said he had to hand it to the Aussies for their hard work in putting this altogether. And, of course, the crowd cheered with that one. Scary - the crowd no longer had its own judgement.

Makes you wonder how far it could go....

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:48:43 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is it just a coincidence or a joke ...
Message:
that the Donation box at the end of the message list is titled PayPal?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:52:43 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: PayPal not Prempal :C)
Message:
Haven't you seen PayPal before? It's basically an on-line credit card transaction. It's for real unlike Prempal who probably should have been called Paypal. :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:58:45 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: PayPal not Prempal :C)
Message:
Hi Pat!!
No I haven't seen it before. I just basically got the internet and found EPO and here I am. Don't use it for much else except to help me Deprogram.
I thought it funny that we had the 'opportunity' to pay the second name of YKW yet another donation.
Well, ya know,small things and small minds.
Although it is growing larger and healthier day by day.
Did you get my email re Jules?
Love to you.
Bai X
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:20:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: PayPal not Prempal :C)
Message:
Yes, I got your email and I sent Jules some pics of her in a sari and me in khurta and mala in the Indian ashram - a blast from the past.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:45:16 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Spellcheck 'amaroo'
Message:
I just found this little curiosity buried way below in a message from Steve. I was guessing that most would have missed it, so I will repeat Steve's discovery.

Put the word 'amaroo' in a Word doc and spellcheck it.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:08:22 (EST)
From: I don't get it
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Re: Spellcheck 'amaroo'
Message:
and?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:56:46 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: I don't get it
Subject: Re: Spellcheck 'amaroo'
Message:
. . . and . . . see what spellcheck suggests as a word to replace the word: AMAROO that it thinks you mispelled because it's not in its dictionary. That's what. Still not clear? Okay, go into Word and start a new doc file. While there, type the word: AMAROO. Now apply Spelling (or Spellchecker) to it. See what it suggests for a replacement to AMAROO. Get it? No? Okay, get down on your hands and knees and beg M for his divine intervention to help you. (Just kidding - sorry, at this point I can't help you.)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:48:19 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: OK, Steve, try spellchecking 'PremPal' ;)(nt)
Message:
OK, Steve, try spellchecking 'PremPal'
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 13:25:12 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: OK, Steve, try spellchecking 'PremPal' ;)(nt)
Message:
Yes, I like! Good one! By EPO, no less. And the truth. Thanks!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:00:58 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Derek Harper is not Catweasel
Message:
At least that is what Derek told me emphatically when he called me a little while ago. I'm inclined to believe him, though some will say, 'That's what he would say, wouldn't he?'

For one, Derek's writing style is so far removed from the undisciplined meanderings of CW that it would be hard to sustain such a cover. All the other evidence that I'm aware of in relation to the characteristics of DH/CW is circumstantial.

What we do have is someone who calls him/herself CW operating through a Melbourne server, and who purports to know the law, like cigars, and have a part ownership in a race horse. Apart from the server, all of this may or may not be true.

As far as I can see, CW must be taken on face value as CW until someone can provide hard evidence of his/her real identity (or even multiple identities for all I know).

BTW, Derek Harper - who says he is not CW - doesn't have a very high opinion of CW, either.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 23:08:58 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Derek Harper and the Forum
Message:
But Derek Harper the initiator does read the forum.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:21:40 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: I agree with Jethro: who cares?
Message:
McDuck, the issue isn't 'who' Catweasel is. The issue is that Catweasel has continually said the most vile and abusive things to people and hidden behind anonymity. That's the issue.

But I can understand that Derek Harper, whoever that might be, and again, who cares, would be worried and insulted to be associated with whomever Catweasel is, considering his behavior. At least whoever this Derek Harper is he at least has enough moral integrity to not have a very high opinion of CW. I doubt anyone would.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:38:21 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: I agree with Jethro: who cares?
Message:
And I agree with you, Joe. I was merely noting Derek's stated position for those involved in the hunt for CW and giving Derek the benefit of the doubt due to all of us.

As to CW, he might as well be PatC's conspiracist fantasy detailed below. He (or their multiple IDs) is/are incapable of observing even the ambivalent call for 'honesty' expressed in his master's trainings. As to his opinion that Derek doesn't frequent the forum, he knows fuck-all about Derek.

Gerry's intent to delete the sad little character is the best course, along with Mike Donner's advice to ignore him if he does pop up unexpectedly, like an unflushable turd.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:16:51 (EST)
From: Unflushable Turd!
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: LMAO............(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:21:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Right, Mc Duck, agreed (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 05:52:23 (EST)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Well, a little sanity
Message:
Interesting.Wrong about the server McDuck.Try Christchurch New Zealand.
And Mr Harper doesn't approve? Well that is hurtful!
To be honest it weas actually pissing me off to be mistaken for old golden syrup hisself..
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 06:51:24 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Well, a little sanity
Message:
He doesn't approve? That's it I'm on my way....Hullo Xdom!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:02:25 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Who cares?
Message:
Between catweasel and DR, the premie attitude becomes clear to anyine reading the site. They have done wonders for x-propagation.

Excreta taurus cerebum winket

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:46:49 (EST)
From: A Slandered One
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: anyine reading the site?
Message:
don't you know Ed, that anyines can't read?

Oh and Cat, I get a slightly rosier picture regarding D's op of CW than Mc D shared with the known universe. I talk to D quite often. I thought McDuck's post quite good but the barb at the end wasn't such a big surprise, it seems to be a requisite for credibility on this bulletin board.

One thing I can assure you, D's opinion of what you're doing on F7 and his opinion of of what others are doing on F7 is, you know, quite different. Good to keep the picture clear eh?

But then that's just my opinion which, here in the Forum Of Eden, is next to useless.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:23:06 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: A Slandered One
Subject: One spelling mistake is not bad for a dyslexic.
Message:
respect your opinion when you don't even use a handle, let alone your name.

There's cw down below trying to sound 'all grown up' and there's you calling me 'Ed'..what for?

You all make such fools of yourselves.

Why don't you try and make the premie forums like enjoying life of www.maharaji.org more discussion-base so we can see some real premie discussions.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:14:13 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Good for you McDuck
Message:
The thing is, CW brought about that on his own. He never corrected people when they said CW was another side of SC aka DR these days. DR never said anything. They allowed the confusion to take place, actually they both relished the ambiguity. CW also posted as many entities and now that reputation cannot be revised. Now, all of a sudden, it's getting serious.

It's one thing to be anomymous, it's another to be deceptive, especially trolling and spamming the forum.

Why would people want to protect CW's identity?

But you are right, Derek Harper is getting getting the brunt end of the stick for CW's antics. If it's not him, he should tell CW himself, as CW claims to know and be friends with the Big D. (CW's words)

But this begs the question, 'Why doesnt' Derek come on the forum himself and ask CW to call him and identify himself?' Why doesn't Derek show us how he writes so we could go on more than your once-removed phone call.

Any suggestions you guys?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 05:57:09 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Good for you McDuck
Message:
If you check with Pat and Gerry you will find that I have only posted as Catweasel(CW) for over 6 months.
Derek wont come to the forum because he has nothing to do with the forum. I imagine he heard of this unwanted noteriety through third parties.
It is totally unimportant in any case.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:21:46 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Well said McDuck, Jethro and Dedorah
Message:
Thanks, McDuck. Like Jethro, I personally don't much care but I also agree with Deborah when she asks:

''Why would people want to protect CW's identity?''

In fact I agree with all of Deb's post.

Any halfway decent premie would disown CW and, if he knew him, would admonish him for his bad PR for M on the forum.

Hopefully Mr Harper, in his position as an instructor, would care that Maharaji's reputation has suffered terribly at the hands of CW. For that matter so has Mr Harper's rep.

Personally I've always believed that CW was really an ex-premie's prank, a diabolically satirical invention to show that premies are evil, insane and unethical because I have never met a premie in real life who is quite as mentally unbalanced, bitter and twisted as CW.

CW's a joke like Pauline Premie maybe even modelled after the cigar-smoking, race-horse owning Mr Harper. In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if both characters had been invented by the same astute mind. :C)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 06:49:39 (EST)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Close Pat, but no cigar!!(nt)
Message:
stgjil
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:48:00 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: You mean you aren't Pauline Premie!!?? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:13:21 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: suggestions
Message:
But this begs the question, 'Why doesnt' Derek come on the forum himself and ask CW to call him and identify himself?'

Suggestions:

1. Derek Harper is cw and is therefore a consistent liar.
2. If he isn't AND he hasn't come on the forum, he must endorse what cw says.
3. They are lovers
4. cw is blackmailing derek harper
5. Derek Harper is shit scared of m finding out that he has posted on the forum(although he really wants to.

Must go now

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:39:04 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: suggestions
Message:
i thought we were gonna try to ignore cw and all trolls that come on. that seemed a good strategy, ignore...but here we seem again with a long thread dedicated to this. who give a fly f. about derek or cw or pauline premie, et al...let;s consider ignoring them folks.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 05:53:27 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Last Word
Message:
You are really misreading the psyche of some-one who has chosen to to what Derek has in real life. This place is not on his 'to do ' list and never would be.
I am not Derek Harper. And McDuck is a wally
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:35:44 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Last Word
Message:
I have no idea who Derek Harper is. He may as well be you as far I am concerned. It makes no difference to me. You are both the same in that you condone maharaji's behaviour towards other human beings.

What a pity that Maharaji couldn't stop abuse and rape of children and adults.

An even greater pity that he has been silent all these years. It would have been a great chance for him to turn things around.

You see cw, Derek Harper, David Roupell,SC x 12,David Lovejoy, Beth Burl, Padarthanand...we have a basic difference of values in that as a premie you have no values. Your master, Prempal Singh Rowatt, aka (a)Maharaji says that values are a waste of time and he adequately demonstrates that.

You are no different to holocaust deniers who are probably more honest than you in that they admit what they believe.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:03:02 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Last Word
Message:
Silly bugger. You could almost be a member of the Workers Students Alliance having a potshot at the capitalist classes. We Ozzies are a friendly lot,as you well know. Now just be a little more sensible Jethro; this tripe is fecundant..
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:59:04 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: You are such a fake
Message:
Jagdeo's paedophilia and gm's sexual abuse of female premies hardly equates with the workers students alliance, but then we already know how shallow and lacking in self-worth you are.
Say hello to sam bender from me too yeah, mike cobb, but then maybe you are sam bender and you've completely lost the plot, I hope not cause the sam I knew was cool, and not at all as shallow as you crapweasle.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:25:30 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: propogation- what was it all about ??
Message:
I started exiting in the mid 90s, so I missed M's little lecture tours with lap top and figures... but what the F*@K is propogation all about ??

I remember how much pressure we were under to 'bring someone' and I always felt a bit of a failure as a premie that nobody I dragged to satsang ever got Knowledge (except for max nathan - he made me feel good about myself... thanks max)

I also remember trying to get to the front at events and actively DISCOURAGING (in my mind) new people and aspirants from attending... and all the time M reminding us that we were his arms and legs.

Well he was crippled with me... 'good riddance to bad rubbish' he must be saying now.

BUT I NEVER honestly felt any excitement, any drive, any passion about telling people that 'someone is here and he knows a way' - wheras I would happily rabbit on for hours about my theories and feelings for life.. but when it got down to the hard sell bit.. i lost my bottle.

Eventually i stopped mentioning M at all, and took up recounting his stories as if they were mine.

'But you havnt got a plane, Loaf'somebody should have said as i recounted the joys of flying over the pacific rim at dawn.

'AAAh.. but i know omeone who has' wasnt much of a retort. ' I have an INNER Plane' (Should have been an astral one ED)

I am joking of course.. (I blame lack of sleep its 2am here and I just woke up )

But stopping people talking about Knowledge has effectively killed his Mission.

Those rambling hours in the satsang room COULD have been great therapy.. but we were too interested in toing the party line. I used to really value the notion of 'the company of truth'- and after drifting a bit from K&M in the mid 90s I did counsellor training where it struck me again that the truth is beautiful - BUT my definition of TRUTH wasnt the 'party line' any more.. but the personal individual ownership and recognition of feelings.

It was such a big turning point for me when I recognised and 'validated' my pain, my hurt, my tiny personal joy above and beyond the imported syrup which I had been wading through for years.. I think the death of culture in Elan Vital and the horrific crimes against humanity perpertrated by WAHADAMAR are the symptoms of an entire 'nation' of people being divorced from their selves.

M claims to speak for the heart.

THIS IS APPALLING, WITLESS and ABUSIVE BREACH OF COPYRIGHT.

My 'heart' has an infinitely complicated MESSAGE - not a Hallmark line in simple slogans.. as Bryn Davies me old mate puts it.. 'Cliches which forbid thought'

The hurt that has been done to people by them losing contact, reverance and respect for the human, fucked up, complex, mortal, temporary and honest personae of life... and instead they place on that secret inner altar a plastic man spouting platitudes.

Not Good.

We are here.. we are the answer.... now lets ask better questions.

xx

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:01:32 (EST)
From: Bryn Davies
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Credit where its due m'dear
Message:
I got the phrase 'thought terminating cliche' off this very website.

I had been struggling with the dynamics of such mental things for weeks, and suddenly there was the perfect form of words. I regard the internet as potentially magical in this respect, and thank you to whoever put the phrase foreward.

I was interested in the power-to-forget as the concealed force in the business of learning. The Movies was my focus of interest, as they generate massive indellible visuals that eclipse subsequent personal reflection, while trying to give the impression of addressing issues. Film/video images effectively block off the very avenues of thought they pretend to open..personal reflection is still-born.

In the shower I noticed that the toothpaste tube was blocked up, because as ever I had left the lid off.'Eureka!' I thought,'the best way of blocking up a flow of toothpaste is with toothpaste!' See what I mean? The best way of silencing thought is to block it up with spectacular opening thought. The best way of stopping imagination is with imagination.

I wish we could be left alone by the media, and megalomaniac holy men for a while. I feel like this is a genuine war on humanity.
Love Bryn

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:37:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: propogation- what was it all about ?? ??
Message:
Brilliant, loaf. How could you hard-sell K? I sure couldn't. I could sell enthusiasm for life but only in my own terms. He lost my heart when he shut us all up but I hung on for another decade plus with my mind, concepts about who he was.

But I always hated the idea of propagation. I detested all proselytization. God, I was so dumb not to see that that's exactly what made it a religion. Duh!

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:02:58 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: propogation- what was it all about ??
Message:
I remember being sent door to door with the glossy magazine *And It Is Divine* in Houston prior to the Millennium Debacle. I recall feeling numb a lot of the time, knowing that these folks in the Texas Bible belt were not going to be swayed by a 20 year old girl in a long dress (in the Houston heat and humidity) but feeling like it was the LORD'S desire that I help HIM save all of humanity through DIVINE KNOWLEDGE. I have a clear memory of doing propagation through the dorms at Rice University and having these thinking young students laugh their asses off at my psychotic drivel about the Perfect Master who was Greater Than God, The Lord of Universe Has Come to Us Today. That's what the Goo told us. Those were his words. He told us to go into the streets and tell everyone about him. Oh...Why didn't someone abduct me and have me deprogramed then???? Thank the gods that sanity finally erupted in my fuzzy little head.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:00:20 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: propogation- what was it all about ??
Message:
6yyyyyyyy7t

The first line was written by my cat, I swear. She is always trying to get into a cat room!

I was really into propagation, especially in Brighton in 1971-2. I think I have mentioned that I wore sandwich boards. I sang songs with a guitar on the promenade. I got laughed at by my old university and macrobiotic friends. I once went into a park and dragged a guy who was a heroin addict to satsang. He became a premie for a couple of years, then dropped out. I got .3...myoo.m (Cat! Get off my keyboard!) my college roommates into MJ, and they were in for a few years. When they left I came to visit them (in San Francisco actually) and took one of them to a program, but they said that once you were out of the whole thing it looked really ridiculous and insignificant from the outside. I really tried to repropagate to them, but they weren't having it. Anyone know Bill And Janis Smith? Sorry mates.

Okay cat, I'll stroke you now.jkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk Anyone else have this kitty keyboard problem?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:29:44 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: yes I missed all that era
Message:
I got K-Lite in 1982 -- To illustrate how bound to M the whole game was..I think we can probably divide the phases of DLM/EV into

1. pre mustache (PM)

Holy Family, long dresses, Houston (Mustache hardly visible)

2 pre haircut but with mustache (PHM)

Durga Ji... ashrams, crowns, fat dancing flower wobbling hindu dance...

3 Post hairs-cut with Mustche (erm PoHM)

Yuppies, Honchos, Bongos, Quangos

4. Post Mustche (although it made a brief re-apppearance to much scandle)

Videos. less screeching, more pauses, satellites and synchronisation.

I was a PoHM Premie.. so I missed a lot of the missionary zeal of the old days... there wasnt the sense of discovery since once I moved into maha's world.. the outside world was reduced to just a vague annoyance and i was able to eat sleep and think in maharajis Disney theme park ifestyle, which eventually tried to manifest itself on cheap and unsuitable land at far flung corners of the globe.

I remember being told, and shown footage of the old-timers handing out leaflets etc.... but I never felt the urge to do it, and was always embarrassed really by the size and wealth of M.

He became an obstacle very early on.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:29:26 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: yes I missed all that era
Message:
Loaf! I love all your posts. I recognize so much of my own story in your posts!
I was a PoHM premie too... really tried hard to help modernise propagation. The transition from 'live premie-satsang' (yawn) to 'video maha-satsang' was a welcome one for me. Now I could finally listen to the REAL thing!! :(
When the satelites and smart cards came on I quit.
Finally.
Brainwashed was putting it mildly...

Mirror

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 18:35:47 (EST)
From: From Life's Great
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sampuran Anand is dead?
Message:
Posted: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:55:36 (EST)
Original: NA
Posted by: Lou Recipient: All
Email Address: Not Provided
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC)

Subject: Goodbye, Sampu
Message:

Elanvital.org posted this:
'We are very sad to hear that Sampuran Anand passed away. We will miss him dearly.'
Goodbies are always a little sad.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:03:58 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: From Life's Great
Subject: Read the thread below....
Message:
... before posting. Oops, too late.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:59:01 (EST)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I hope she changed her drawers after this
Message:

Karen Plaxton: Days that come and go

From Manila, Philippines

Days come and go, years come and go, emotions, people, places, feelings, wealth, health and consciousness all come and go for me.

Knowledge is constant, but my desire, willpower or even remembrance unfortunately, come and go.

However, Maharaji stays with me, stays around and nudges and prods and sometimes nips me, with love, with his heart and kindness into entering his world, my place, in my own true world of love.

Oh, dear master, where would I go without your steadfastness and patience that you found this stray amongst the rocks of life, that you carried me on your back, to a safe haven, and that sometimes, unwittingly, unknowingly I bite that hand that feeds me. Yet still you gather me up and bring me back into the shelter from the storms.

If I could pay you back for your infinite affection for me, I would do so, and yet all you ask is for me to be in my safe haven, to be happy and delight in the joys and wonders in my heart, but that is too easy for this fickle mind and so I spend days that come and go and continue in my spiral, always hopeful that one day I will stay still enough to realise completely this gift and then pay back all the gifts that you tenderly bestow upon me.

I miss you on a human level, I long to see you again, but the loneliness of having you so close in my heart and sometimes never bothering to visit you, is a pain beyond words.

Thanks again for my gift, and thanks again for all the continual love that is bestowed upon me, and that you alone have shown me just where to find these treasures.

I love you, dear friend, and I am in awe of your perpetual gentleness and caring.

Maybe she should take up knitting...

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:08:41 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: psychotic drivel (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:01:56 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Can I ask a question?
Message:
Gerry, I know you can't answer, but I just have to ask:

according to plaxton, '...sometimes nips me, with love, with his heart....'

How does a heart nip? I see all kinds of activities attributed to this rather necessary, but single-purposed muscle. Nipping???? Now that's a first! :)

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:41:59 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: well, dogs are into 'nipping'
Message:
Y'know how dogs are. Maybe nipping is a sign of affection. Geez, premies - take off the dog collars. Stand on your own 2 feet. You are Human Beings - NOT his 'creatures,' fer cryin out lard!

And talk about a lack of any reasonable personal self-esteem. Many premies are so brainwashed vis a vis Mr. Rawat, that they have this sign stuck to their foreheads that reads, 'Kick me.'

Honestly, I pity those poor deluded souls in That predicament, That experience, That feeling, That participation, That gratitude of deluded spiritual MASOCHISM. deja vu!

at the parish hall, I used to take a 'nip' or 2 myself. hehehe

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:54:23 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: gErRy
Subject: Christ - she needs a shag! nt [nt]
Message:
:)
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:46:45 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Bahkti yoga 101
Message:
Karen shows us a nice example of what goes on inside the mushy brain of one who is hoplessly dependent on the devotee, guru relationship aka bahkti yoga

She and others like her will argue that this is the epitomy of what M and knowledge is all about. I say it is an arguement in favor of the onesided inconsistent relationship between m and devotee and represents what is primarily wrong with the whole thing.

Karen is totally in love with m, her thoughts are obsessed with him, she would do anything for him. M on the other hand can't possibly feel the same for her, doesn't think about her (unless prompted to do so for some reason), would't remember her name (if she is not a PAM).

She continually gives all the glory over to M, and dumps the garbage on herself, what a deal.

Some how she has taken herself completely out of the responsibility equation when anything good occurs in her life, all credit for success goes to her precious Lord and master. However when things get shaky in her life it's all her fault.

It is often a good thing when people accept responsibility for their faults and strive to do better, but the issue here to me is the imbalance of power that she relinquishes to m. This power inequity is the same dynamic that takes place in all abusive relationships.

The same personal power that she gives away to m she could choose to use for herself. Maybe realize that she is also responsible for the good things that happen in her life as well and not just end up being the wrong one all of the time. It is called self awareness and it has nothing to do with m.

I look at this illustration as an example of had I not been lucky enough to find and utilize the resourses here and at EPO, I might have remained in the same bakti devotional rut. The master is all and I am nothing routine, nothing more than a psychic rip-off a pathetic and needy relationship.

I am not putting Karen down, I actually feel for her, I can relate to the emotional neediness that I hear pleading forth from her. This was mostly what kept me in for so long, I lived many years under the pretense that I had a guru, a spiritual master, a special friend with high connections that would take care of things for me.

I am glad that I finally woke up, changed my drawers and stopped crapping all over myself

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:42:10 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: a stray dog that bites???
Message:
'you found this stray amongst the rocks of life, that you carried me on your back, to a safe haven, and that sometimes, unwittingly, unknowingly I bite that hand that feeds me.'

hey, Remember that poem plastered in New Age houses about: i.e. where were you, Lord God, when I needed you? I saw only 2 footprints at those times,etc.

This poor puppy is confusing maha the person with 1) her concept of a deity, 2) the sustenance of her own universal lifeforce (e.g.'Yet still you gather me up and bring me back into the shelter from the storms'), and 3) she is supplanting an imaginary 2-way personal relationship for her own very real-life one-way adulation (e.g. 'If I could pay you back for your infinite affection for me).

Classic pewkdom! Talk about a cult brainwashing and lobotomy!!

[knocking on her head] Helloooo, helloooo, is anybody home?!

Well, guess that's why we're doing service and satsang here. back to meditation now...

PS hey, I'd bite that hand, too, if it fed me a crock of you-know-what from you-know-who. hahaha

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:14:32 (EST)
From: loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: heres a good pic..
Message:
Taken in 1969 before m had ever been to the west.. i recognise peter ponton in the front row on the left !!!!

yay pee wee !!

But who is the leather panted rock star in the glass case ? Austin powers ??

MoJo galore Baby ! magiclara suggested I post this.. she found it on enjoying life.com what fun !!

YIKES I CAN'T GET IT TO ADD ON HERE... ITS IN THE DAYS WITH KNOWLEDGE SECTION

22 June 2001 post by magdeline Sodenburg

CAN A GROWN UP HELP ? !!! PLEEEASE !!

Interesting to note that they seem to have only 2 regular contributors recently...

Its more fun HERE !!

xx

Loafie

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:24:14 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: It isn't there Loaf!
Message:
You didn't have to tell everyone I spend my days trawling through Enjoying life with knowledge. I wanted people to think I had a life. If I wasn't so useless on computers I could have posted it myself and not said where I got it from. Anyway like I said it isn't there but I could tell anyone who wants to know exactly how to find it on ELK ..........aaarg they are coming to take me awaaaaaaaaay..........
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:08:22 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Get yer act together you two! :)
Message:
Christ - they'll all think we're a lot of prize w**kers here in Liverpudlian land xxxx
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:27:31 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Shut yer face moley !!!
Message:
How are you darlin ' ??

I'd like to see YOU insert a pic !

Big hug

Loafie
xx

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:41:52 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Loaf
Subject: Hey Loafie - I'm an expert !!!ot
Message:
I can insert pretty well anything anywhere :)

I'm fine (mostly - email/phone details)

Let's meet sooon

Ditto - Big hug

Moles xxx

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