Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 12, 2002 To: Jan 18, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


suchabanana -:- hooters and good cigars: Nouri article -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 05:21:34 (EST)
__ magnolia -:- michael nouri, smoking deadbeat dad -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:39:02 (EST)
__ __ Livia Dowte -:- Re: michael nouri, kids -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:49:02 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- Re: michael nouri, kids -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:42:17 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Good Grief -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 18:21:14 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Embar-ass-ment of Riches -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:07:23 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: hooters and good cigars: Nouri article -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:32:18 (EST)
__ __ Sulla -:- Re: hooters and good cigars: Nouri article -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 18:14:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Marshall -:- Sulla Huh? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:27:06 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- blessed: by who? by Whom, of course! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:26:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Marsh & Such: You're right! I knew it ! Whom! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:31:17 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Michael Nouri is a Fake and a Liar... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:47:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- And...He's 56 years old... [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:12:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Article was registered back in 1996 -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:46:38 (EST)

Jethro -:- Missing 'satsang' ? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:51:53 (EST)
__ cq -:- Re: Missing 'satsang' ? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:51:32 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- What about having EPO on a CD ? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 03:57:29 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- This is a GREAT Idea JM! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:55:13 (EST)
__ Anandaji -:- Re: What about having EPO on a CD ? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:16:08 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Malvina Reynolds- OT -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:47:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Malvina Reynolds- OT -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:07:21 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- Don't forget:'Little Boxes,all made of ticky-tack' [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:46:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'Little Boxes,all made of ticky-tack' -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:31:45 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Would be alot of fun -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 09:45:32 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Would be alot of fun -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:40:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- JM, could I email you?? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:50:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- here's my email -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:35:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Okay, let's roll. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:22:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Okay, let's roll. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:26:48 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Fantastic Idea! put me on your order list [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:41:20 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Sounds a great idea! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:07:02 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- I've also been thinking in book form -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:14:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Desk top publishing -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 09:32:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Anandaji -:- Re: Desk top publishing -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:01:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- We should get permission -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:50:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Rupee Murdoch -:- Re: I've also been thinking in book form -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 08:46:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Set up different Volumes -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:04:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- 1,000 paperbacks cost....... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:35:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: 1,000 paperbacks cost....... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:45:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I tried to email you but.... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:45:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Clump pictures together -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:20:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: Clump pictures together -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:21:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: 1,000 paperbacks cost....... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:03:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- How 'bout we concentrate on... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:48:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: How 'bout we concentrate on... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:29:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Sweetie ())())()) [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:46:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Peg -:- another fantastic Idea! [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:42:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Free book -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:17:30 (EST)

Anandaji -:- By his grace, I'm back -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 00:22:37 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Good to see you -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:52:29 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Hi Anandaji -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:31:39 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Re: By his grace, I'm back -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 00:27:08 (EST)
__ __ Anandaji -:- Re: By his grace, I'm back -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:04:07 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: By his grace, I'm back -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 01:10:56 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Like I told Nige... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:27:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Anandaji -:- Thanks, Gerry. nt [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:09:35 (EST)

McDuck -:- Sandwich bags and vacuuming -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:03:53 (EST)
__ Suzie -:- Sexist, wasn't it?? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:01:43 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- Re: Sexist, wasn't it? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:15:02 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Your experience was better than mine! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:16:27 (EST)
__ __ housemom -:- Re: Your experience was better than mine! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:59:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I know that -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:36:32 (EST)
__ housemom -:- Re: Sandwich bags and vacuuming -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:46:12 (EST)
__ __ Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby -:- Re: Sandwich bags and vacuuming -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:38:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Barbara -:- Vive la revolucion! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:13:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- To Missy/OTS etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:10:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- It just doesnt' get better than this! :) -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:03:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- The cult of purification -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:14:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Postprandial Hot Fudge Sundaes -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:49:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gina in Atlanta -:- Anuthah Muthah -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:42:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemom -:- Re: The cult of purification -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:07:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Talking of salad dressing.. Mr. Feel-bad -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:23:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That was at the Kissimee swamp -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:18:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: The cult of purification -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:06:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- I flunked religion cuz of that milk bottle -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:43:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I didn't flunk catechism... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:40:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- The dalmation soul -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:34:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- shiny happy people -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:24:06 (EST)
__ __ __ housemom -:- great post! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:08:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- May He Get His! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:44:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ housemom -:- cult of pettiness !?!? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:24:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yes, naive and gullible... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:30:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Yes, naive and gullible... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:10:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hartford -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:06:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hartford -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:22:04 (EST)

La-ex -:- Singer and Hassan on cults: -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 21:55:46 (EST)
__ such -:- excellent quotes! -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:28:41 (EST)

yeah_right_210 -:- a couple of thoughts -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 21:23:24 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: a couple of thoughts -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:16:29 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: a couple of thoughts -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:22:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: a couple of thoughts -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:49:45 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- I'm glad you brought this up -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:24:49 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: a couple of thoughts -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:43:53 (EST)
__ __ yeah_right_210 -:- Re: a couple of thoughts -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:18:27 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- P.S. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:54:58 (EST)
__ __ __ yeah_right_210 -:- Re: P.S. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:05:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: P.S. -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:25:47 (EST)

Kelly -:- Sampuranand -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:36:14 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- I am sad -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 03:38:38 (EST)
__ __ Thank you, Loaf -:- Sampuranand -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:29:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Yeah well, you're full of shit! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:10:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Yeah well, you're full of shit! -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:32:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: But not with the S....part. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:55:33 (EST)
__ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Sampuranand -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:26:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I feel no remorse, I'm a real vulture -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:23:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- You are the insensitive one -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:48:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ So you agree then -:- that some here are heartless vultures -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:06:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Has anyone told you recently ........... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:32:41 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- In other words..... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:21:56 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Is that the same guy... -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 19:00:45 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Why be sad? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:37:15 (EST)
__ __ __ PatD -:- I'll flame you for sure next time.. -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:58:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Flame me too, while you're at it! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:17:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ You both display -:- the worst of human insensitivity... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:10:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I'm glad I'm human instead of a premie! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:40:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- like miragey's 'cold and callous disregard' -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:28:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sure, whatever you say... -:- but consider this -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 00:53:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- no, it's 'sharing and caring!' -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:50:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- speak of display -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:45:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- hear hear, Hemlockanand ji! -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:59:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I wish premies would read Plato's Republic -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:07:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- I wish they'd read any f***ing thing! [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:04:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I nearly added that to my post. :C) [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:49:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- TO: You both display... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:52:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Who's insensitive?? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:27:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ You, Cynthia and Tonette -:- to name three....... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:20:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- AhHaaaahahah! Thinking, did you say thinking?? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:19:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Very good response Tonette [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:39:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Of course, Maharaji is never to blame... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:47:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Right on Marianne !! (and Cynth and Tonette) [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:02:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Did Sampuranand know about Jagdeo??? -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:30:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- This post made me cranky, so you have company -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:18:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: This post made me cranky, so you have company -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:00:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- That's funny! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:20:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- T&C -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:58:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thanks Marianne & Cynthia nt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:24:19 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: Is that the same guy... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 05:19:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Is that the same guy... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:23:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Pullaver -:- Re: Is that the same guy... -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:56:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Pullaver, abobe message meant 4 u NT -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:34:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Jethro - OT -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:35:21 (EST)
__ Mike Finch -:- Re: Sampuranand -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:14:22 (EST)
__ Gail -:- Re: Sampuranand -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:11:23 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 05:21:34 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: hooters and good cigars: Nouri article
Message:
Gist of article: You Can Have It All - or, A Broad is Like a Good Cigar!

'Chauncey, the offspring of prize-winning English show dogs' [no cheap mutts allowed here.]

'In his California home, Nouri keeps his cigars in an armoire that he has had specially converted to a humidor. 'It holds about 5,000 cigars,' he says. 'I had it lined in Spanish cedar and put little openings in the shelves so the moisture can get up from the humidifier on the bottom. It's a perfectly controlled environment for my little cigar babies.' [the maha Wheel of Fortune spokesperson macho symbol of spiritual, er worldly success, and his children. Hey, speaking of babies -- what about Jenny (the REAL baby you deserted), you total asshole?!!]

'Nouri sees a certain symbolism in a good smoke. 'It reminds me of the quality of life I strive for,' he says. 'I love quality in everything, whether it's watchmaking or clothes or shoes...' [Rolexes, Armani suits, conspicuous status symbol materialism, the goal of all true yogis and spiritual seekers worth their phlegm. like you-know-who!]

''When I sit down to smoke a cigar,' he says, 'it's usually with some really great buddies. And we talk about our cigar experiences, our trips to Cuba, our dreams of going to Cuba. Or we talk about something completely different, like J.D. Salinger. Or life. Or women.' [yeah, a busty nude centerfold chick is like a good cigar! btw, thanks anyway for Shannon (?) of Vancouver's telephone number, Mike, but even as an eligible bachelor myself back then, I thought it was a bit crass to bang and dump some young lady and then give me her phone number (like offering me a Cuban cigar, as a casual gesture between good buddies) while we were standing taking a piss in the men's room during a maharaji program at the Jackie Gleason Convention Center in Miami. like, a piece of meat...]

'(Speaking of women--which he most definitely likes to do--he prefers that they be cigar-friendly. Sometimes, they are more than friendly. A former romantic interest is India Allen, an actress, film producer and the 1988 Playboy Playmate of the Year, a regular cigar smoker who was profiled earlier this year in Cigar Aficionado.)''
[Promotional ad: aspirant dudes -- receive McKnowledge-lite and you will smoke cigars and bed naked centerfolds and hang with miragey and Hugh Hefner, too! ok, as for you young foxy, blonde aspirant chicks: you might get the actual golden perfect body of the Lard of the Universe, da living massa. and maybe Nouri could have sloppy seconds, huh? Hey, attn: premie women, and especially all you Indian and Mauritius premies!! Your guru's cult spokesperson is a Peter Pan playboy (like maha) whose ideal women spread all the wares naked for money in porno magazines.]

'In the early 1970s, he says, 'I set out on a spiritual quest in search of myself and became involved in meditation for three years.' He lived on ashrams, pursuing self-knowledge.' [correction: he lived in 'premie houses' - i.e. the Ingraham St. house near Wilshire Blvd., with me, Marilyn Lois Johnson (Rawat), and a bunch of other people (Jake, lil Jake, Star, Kathy, Michael, et al). And when we were rooming together in the ashram in Houston for Millenium, you broke the rules, too - i.e. Jane, etc. Note: he became involved in meditation 'for 3 years.']

Peter Pan Playboy: I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up... a woman is like a good cigar...maharaji and I share a love of quality wristwatches and expensive suits...and foxy bimbos... and we both maybe meditated for about 3 years.

an irony here: Julie Andrews played the cross-gender role of Peter Pan on American television in the 1950s.

Hey, Grow up, Mike. and btw, despite what your press agent tells people, You're not '49', let alone an adolescent anymore, except in your own self-enamored 1950s chauvinist brain. You're well into your 50s, dude! And take that stupid cigar out of your swarmy, dumber and more superficial than shit, spokesmodel mouth.

To think you were once my friend - but you never changed, grew up, progressed, or evolved spiritually -- or in maturity, dude. And maha makes you his poster-boy in the vids?!! hahahahahahaha!!!! Yeah, now tell me how much Marilyn likes your and Prem's attitude about blondes on the side. Do you have a cognac and good smoke with him up at the residence and talk about chicks? Huh?!! i.e.: 'Hey, maharaji, I met this peroxide babe with big hooters at the program last night. Want her number, Lord? Yeah, reminds me of the time when we...' ???

Yeah, the success symbol spokesmodel of modern male pwkdom, thanks to the master's own example. Aspirants and premies, take note!

His qualifications? He meditated for '3 years' in the early 1970s, before reverting to an incorrigible playboy and hedonist.

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/Aficionado/people/fh995.html
[ http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/Aficionado/people/fh995.html ]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:39:02 (EST)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: michael nouri, smoking deadbeat dad
Message:
i met another of michael nouri's ashram offspring in florida a year ago, one whom had only recently met her dad (she's in her twenties).
did he raise/visit/claim any of his own kids? how many are there?
at least his children weren't subjected to any of his secondhand cigar smoke!

magnolia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:49:02 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Re: michael nouri, kids
Message:
Did Jane Freed have one of Michael's kids? (Houston, 1973) I have this vague, distant memory of her being pregnant...
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:42:17 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: michael nouri, kids
Message:
Jane, violinist from Blue Aquarius. A wonderful person and musician! kiwi [aka New Zealander]. daughter, Jenny. Never knew or had any contact from her dad, till she was [supposed to get] introduced several years ago. [according to some NZ friends of Jane's.]

Maybe Mike shoulda been a sturgeon or salmon -- spawning and spreading its seed indiscriminately. A cigar-smoked salmon! hahaha

oh well, so much for the salmon bake. (unlike maha, i'm still a vegetarian. And I don't eat fish...)

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 18:21:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Good Grief
Message:
And this is the guy who is interspersed in some version of the Atlanta Training video, explaining what Maharaji 'really meant.' Maybe he was one of those 'paid actors.'

I have two vivid memories of Nouri. One is at Guru Puja festival in Amherst in 1974, at which he entertained from the stage, singing various cult-songs.

The other is in 1978, when Nouri wasn't doing so well with his acting career and came to Chicago to do a play called 'Nefretiti,' which I believe closed within 2 weeks. I was living in the Chicago ashram at the time, and Nouri came to the ashram once and as a celebrity was allowed to give satsang to us poverty-stricken ashram premies who didn't really know how to live.

In the course of his tour in Chicago, he had a 'one-night-stand' with at least one of the premie women in the community, who was a little weirded out when Nouri dumped her and went back to New York, or LA, or someplace to be with his cigar collection.

It is kind of funny that the article talks about his 'meditation' period as a space out, and Nouri doesn't disagree, and, of course, never mentions the guy he is now out propagandizing to the plebian premies, those who are left, that is.

He and Gallwey are the perfect examples of what M is about. Money, condescension, arrogance and no morals whatsoever. Are premies that shallow that they would be impressed by this guy? I know Rich Mandrake wasn't.

Oh yeah, I also remember him from that MTV video pretending to be a movie -- Flashdance -- which Pauline Kael said was like a germ that entered your brain and had to be killed with antibiotics. God, I miss Pauline (Kael, not Premie).

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:07:23 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Embar-ass-ment of Riches
Message:
Yeah, it's an interesting point that people like Travolta or Cruise have no problem proclaiming their allegiance to Scientology but for any celeb to claim allegiance to Maharaji? It only underscores the fact that Maharaji has always been the biggest obstacle to propogation. I remember always being embarassed to talk about him.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:32:18 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: hooters and good cigars: Nouri article
Message:
Now this is a premie Maharaji can be proud of! Just look how he's followed in his footsteps. No wonder he's the wonder boy mc on the Kit promo video. Ahhh, it's suddenly becoming clear. How could I have been so ignorant for three decades? Knowledge wasn't about satsang, service, meditation and devotion. It was about breaking federal customs laws, developing tastes for only the finest material things, leaving spouses in times of devestating illnesses, using the opposite sex for personal gratification, and getting intouch with a 'me, me, me, me and me' attitude to enjoy this life and seeing how many rules I could have broken.

No wonder Maharaji was forced into revisionism. We heard him say surrender, and what he was really saying was 'as long as you're rich and famous and give me money, you can do whatever you want.'

Yep, that was what the Lord of the Universe was saying. We just weren't listening. Michael Nouri, the perfect example of prachar if ever there was one.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 18:14:36 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: hooters and good cigars: Nouri article
Message:
Thank someone that we heard the message of our own hearts, because in his eyes was the reflection of our own soul, and that was the light that we saw. We are the lucky ones who understand M's message in the wrong way and because of that we are now safe.

We are blessed.

Are we? By who?

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:27:06 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Sulla Huh?
Message:
Sulla,
What do you mean?
Why do you feel it is so important to be blessed by someone/something?
Just enjoy life(pun intended)
No really, just stand on your own two feet.
You don't need anybody besides yourself and your family/friends.

Good Luck Marshall

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 20:26:50 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: blessed: by who? by Whom, of course!
Message:
Blessed be the pure of heart - and mind!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:31:17 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Marsh & Such: You're right! I knew it ! Whom!
Message:
Don't you worry, I'm OK, it was only a little joke, by now I feel that we are just blessed, and that's enough.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:47:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Michael Nouri is a Fake and a Liar...
Message:
I looked up Nouri on the National Multiple Sclerosis website and could find NO mention of his name.

Maybe he donated money and they gave him a title to spout off about.

At any rate, he's a creep, too, and I can't believe he's raving about cigars--YUCK!

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:12:31 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: And...He's 56 years old... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:46:38 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Article was registered back in 1996
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:51:53 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Missing 'satsang' ?
Message:
An interesting site for those that think they are missing something.

http://www.nonduality.com/satsang.htm#5
[ Nonduality satsang ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:51:32 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Missing 'satsang' ?
Message:
Like I'm missing cold re-fried beans on toast:


The Mind Is A Trickster

Arjuna

You know the story of Jesus
and the 40 days and 40 nights
and the devil?
The devil is the mind, that's all.
What did the devil offer?
'I'm going to make you powerful.'
But Jesus had the courage
and the wisdom
to say 'no thanks,
I'm going to stay home with God.'
That means, I'm going to rest in presence.
The same thing happened to Buddha.

All the cool dudes, they say the same thing.

When he sat under the Bodhi tree,
Mara appeared.
Same thing like devil.
Mara said the same thing,
'I will give you everything.'
What Buddha said was
'I know that you are a creation of my own mind.'
Mara disappeared
and there was silence.

Just be a little aware,
this mind is a trickster.
It always looks so good,
what it's offering you.
'C'mon, I'll give you this,
I'll give you that.'
It's all multilevel marketing.
Watch out.
It's never like it was advertised on TV.

Read the small print very carefully
before going on any trips.
Because you have everything you need at home.
You have such a great home.
The sweetest beloved
anyone could ever find
lives right in your house.
All the entertainment,
everything is there,
right at home.

Stay home and order pizza.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 03:57:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What about having EPO on a CD ?
Message:
I've been thinking about it for a while.
No doubt EPO will be back online soon, and the hackers spotted by the Internet authorities.
But why not having it on a CD, and distribute it freely ?
Lots of people have CD burners on their PCs or Macs these days, and would duplicate the CD for their friends.
We could have updated versions every 3 monts or so.
What do you think ?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:55:13 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a GREAT Idea JM! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:16:08 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: What about having EPO on a CD ?
Message:
Let's sing this Melvina Reynolds song on the CD:

God bless the grass that grows through the crack.
They roll the concrete over it to try to keep it back.
but the concrete gets tired of what it has to do,
It breaks and it buckles and the grass grows through...
And God bless the grass.

God bless the truth that fights toward the sun.
They roll their lies over it and think that it is done.
But it moves through the ground and reaches for the air,
And after a while it is growing everywhere...
And God bless the grass.

God bless the grass that grows through cement.
It's green and it's tender, and it's easily bent.
But after a while it lifts up its head
For the grass is living and the stone is dead...
And God bless the grass.

God bless the grass that's gentle and low.
Its roots they are deep and its will is to grow.
And God bless the Truth, the friend of the poor,
And wild grass growing at the poor man's door...
And God bless the grass.

(All God's people have a place in the choir...some sing low and some sing higher...) I'm a baritone. Count me in.

Anandaji

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:47:41 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Malvina Reynolds- OT
Message:
What a great song, Anandaji. Malvina was a staple at leftist rallies and parades in the Bay Area for years. She was a sort of a mother figure to activists. Thanks for that walk down memory lane.

Are you using your real name here anymore?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:07:21 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Malvina Reynolds- OT
Message:
Marianne: I can answer that for you. In an email to me yesterday, Anandaji asked me to not refer to him as anything but Anandaji on EPO.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:46:14 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Don't forget:'Little Boxes,all made of ticky-tack' [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:31:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: 'Little Boxes,all made of ticky-tack'
Message:
Those are the Doelger houses in Daly City and the Sunset District. I'm surrounded by them.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 09:45:32 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Would be alot of fun
Message:
I have a burner but I would need some help in identifying premies to send EPO CD version to. I would hate to see EPO thrown out like the newest mailing of AOL. If a premie has a CD ROM, why wouldn't he/she just log on? Of course if EPO is continually hacked and off line this could be a counter-terrorism measure.
How hard would this be to do? I am quasi computer illerate but would love to be included if anyone takes this wonderful idea further.

You do good work J-M, I appreciate you immensly
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:40:27 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Would be alot of fun
Message:
Very simple to do.
We'll just have all the html pages and pictures you can read on the website, and all archives.
Plus a few scripts to be able to read the zipped archives etc
The present size of the whole website is something near 300 Mb, which is less than half the maximum content of a CD .....
It will just take a few hours to put all this together, when I'll have some spare time (which I have quite often).
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:50:00 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM, could I email you??
Message:
Have something I would like to discuss offline.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:35:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: here's my email
Message:
jmkahn@club-internet.fr
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:22:23 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Okay, let's roll.
Message:
Give me the links, with explicit instructions, when you have it pulled together and I'll burn CD's until the cows come home.
My son is a Master at burning CD's, he will help me if I get into any snafu's. DSL/Cable is coming anyday here, I'm waiting for them to call with the installation appointment, so, it will be very easy on my end and quick.
I'll make CD's and send them to you for distribution if you want.
Any chance in hell we can get a Vision's mailing list?

Willing and able. Let me know. I would like to help, do something productive.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:26:48 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Okay, let's roll.
Message:
I don't want to be involved in the CD's distribution.
I'll make some originals, and ship them to exes wanting to duplicate and distribute.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:41:20 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Fantastic Idea! put me on your order list [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:07:02 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sounds a great idea!
Message:
Of course I'll be concentrating on getting EPO back up, but we can look at the details when we are back up. One thing is for certain, whoever is behind these attacks is fighting a losing battle, which may include losing their liberty for a while.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:14:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I've also been thinking in book form
Message:
If anyone knows of an agent who is willing to stick their necks out and take a gamble please say so. EPO could be put in book form for those who aren't on line or don't have computers - many premies and former premies. It may also be interesting to former members of other Hindu cults as well as quite a few academics.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 09:32:52 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Desk top publishing
Message:
My husband got a book published for my father. My dad wrote a book, well actually, it's two now, took the manuscript written using word perfect, and had a book printing outfit print 20 books. I think my husband used some software to convert the manuscript into a form that the printer could print in book form. A friend of his at work, who does desktop publishing, did a lay out of the front and back covers including pictures. My dad filed for the copyrighting rights. It was a little pricey, but not too terrible. An example, the copyright was 100 or so, 20 softbound books at 120 pages, 1000.00 or so. Of course the price goes down with the more copies you have printed. To post the book on a web site for on-line purchasing, I think was another 100. And my dad gets $4.95 for every copy ordered. My dad didn't intend to make any money, he's just tickled that his book is on the net. I think he's sold 2 or 3. At 84 years old my dad is still pretty cool, don't you think? He's even using email!
Anyway, it can be done and we don't necessarily need to have a publishing house sponsor us. Shoot, download EPO onto a disk and take it from there.
It just might be handy to have a visions mailing list but I guess that is a little unrealistic. I'd be willing to chip in $50 bucks or so to provide a service like this. Imagine if EPO suddenly appeared as a soft cover book, along with premies visions catalog!
It is very possible to put EPO in book form. I'd be willing to do some leg work and help with advice. But I know from watching my husband, it can be very time consuming. I just don't have the time but I could supply the printer who produced the books my husband and father did and give more specifics if anyone wants to take this task on.

Great Idea Pat.
Please let me know if anyone wants to try it.

Warm huggies to you,
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:01:40 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Desk top publishing
Message:
I think it is a great idea. The Journeys alone would be worth the price.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:50:03 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: We should get permission
Message:
Any material contained in a book that ex's produce should be anonymous (can't spell today) or would need permission from the author. That would be the only right thing to do.
I know EPO is public but if some of us were to get together and make this happen, I want to respect and be sensitive to the person whose words will be put in black and white. If they don't want their name next to the material, so be it. I would not want to assume anything. Even if the impact of the material would be dimished by excluding their identity.
Just my thoughts.
The journeys would be incrediably easy to do. I could do it, with help from my experienced first hand husband easily. From what I've read with the journeys, in book form, it would probably make a 50 to 60 page book . A wonderful thing about EPO in comparison to my dad's book is that there would be so much less editing!!!!!

Welcome back, you're not the only one who's had issues here. I trust the cold steak on your black eye is mending things quickly.

Take care, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 08:46:09 (EST)
From: Rupee Murdoch
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: I've also been thinking in book form
Message:
It wouldn't be that hard to have a certain number of paper copies printed and bound, like a 1000 or so...

Could be paid for by a group donation....maybe charge for it, maybe not....exes could buy a dozen each or so, and hand them out as 'ex-mas' presents to their friends and old acquaintances...it would hit a lot of people who are not into computers or the internet, which is still a sizable number of people, especially middle aged folks, like most of the premies are...

Someone could price out what a 1000 copies would cost, see how much it would cost per copy, and see if a number of people would be willing to pay for them....

But, how about copyright, legal stuff etc....?

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:04:41 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Rupee Murdoch
Subject: Set up different Volumes
Message:
People could order what they want. This way we'd see what people really like and want to know more about.

deborah

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:35:41 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Rupee Murdoch
Subject: 1,000 paperbacks cost.......
Message:
.....about $3,000 to print (perfect bound.) It gets cheaper the more you print because most of the cost is the type-setting.

As Tonette said you could also do desktop publishing. I've done that but it is very time consuming which is why I thought of doing it through a publisher.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:45:49 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: 1,000 paperbacks cost.......
Message:
1,000 paperbacks with a C1 cover on cheap paper with text only [no photos] is about $3000 to print on a web press.

1,000 paperbacks @ approx. 200 pages on good paper perfect bound w/ photos is about $7-8000 to print on a web [minimum]

1,000 paperbacks @ approx 200 pages 6'x9' on good paper perfect bound w/ photos scanned/reproduced at 175 dpi and printed on a sheet-fed press ranges from $15,000-35,000.

layout design for text is simple.

however, layout design for text with photos is time-consuming - and therefore expensive [$3000-4000], not incl proofreading.

Honestly, if you can do this cheaper than that, I would Really like to know where, Pat. (In which case, Please email me.)

Peas and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:45:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: such
Subject: I tried to email you but....
Message:
....it bounced back. Could you please email me at the above address not the old yahoo account?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:20:46 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Clump pictures together
Message:
I guess that's why they do it that way in some books. Such, could you give me your email, I'd ike to talk to you about somethings.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:21:17 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Clump pictures together
Message:
Deb,

sure, it's a LOT cheaper to stick all the photos in the middle, for instance. i.e. run the text on a web, the photos scans on a sheet-feed press, and then simply insert those pages into the text pages.

In this day and age of DTP, well... that's archaic (but cheaper than sheet-fed). However, you can print a whole book with nicely laid out photos in 3-color on a web fairly inexpensively, but with only 125-135 dpi resolution.

but then, i'm just a Virgo perfectionist, after all. hehehehe

peas and lentils,

P.S. email address? no, not here.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:03:30 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: 1,000 paperbacks cost.......
Message:
Yes, such, I had forgotten about the pics. Your figures are right which is why I thought about getting a publisher.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:48:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: How 'bout we concentrate on...
Message:
getting the freaking site back up!

Hi Pat,

How are you? I'm in a foul mood today, but reading and posting here has brightened my spirits.

IMO, the website is the most effective way to inform premies and the public. I don't want to be a naysayer here, but grandiose ideas usually end up in the circular file.

BTW, we finally got Miles underground last week....We buried him in a well cultivated flower bed, that Tom was able to dig down three feet, and bless his heart, he's resting under tons of snow.

Much Love to you, Chuck, Andy and your beasts,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:29:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: How 'bout we concentrate on...
Message:
We're working on that as we speak, Cynthia. :C)
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:46:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks, Sweetie ())())()) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:42:59 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: another fantastic Idea! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:17:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Free book
Message:
You could also have it available for free download on personal pages.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 00:22:37 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: By his grace, I'm back
Message:
By the grace of Gerry, whom I have belatedly come to realize is the SatAdministrator here, my banishment has been lifted and I have returned with a well-deserved black eye, which should stand as a reminder for a time to behave myself here like any good aspirant.

I apologize for causing such chaos. I was in my mind.

It all turned out to be a simple misunderstanding: It was his baragan that was tiny.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 22:52:29 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Good to see you
Message:
You're reputation proceeds you,

You do have a good sense of humour.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:31:39 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Hi Anandaji
Message:
Pleased to meet you. Glad to here your 'in your mind' best place to be in my view.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 00:27:08 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Re: By his grace, I'm back
Message:
Jai Sat Chit Anand, Ananda Ji
I am so happy you are allowed back in to play with us all again.
Humility is always a blessing.
Gerry Ji is full of compassion and mercy.
Love Bai
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:04:07 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: By his grace, I'm back
Message:
Jai Sat Chit Anand, Bai Ji,
and Bolea Shree most merciful
SatGerreeDev Maharoger
HamsterGee!!
Arti. Arti.

Blissfully,
Anandaji

P.S. Twameva mata cha pita twameva.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 01:10:56 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: By his grace, I'm back
Message:
Hi you two. Sometimes things get rough and tumble around here. Gerry's been the focus of some nasty doings by deranged exes. Usually he has a good sense of humor and can take the verbal punches with the rest of us. We really try to be supportive and understanding.

I am so glad to see you here, and all the new folks who have been popping in too. One has to think that one of reasons EPO is being hacked is that some of those deranged premies don't want anyone to read what we and EPO have to say. Pretty frightening, isn't it?

Welcome, have fun, and enjoy the new friendships you'll undoubtedly make.

Marianne

PS Email is always welcome.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:27:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Like I told Nige...
Message:
We sorted things out by email and I found Anandaji to be a wickedly funny guy and a delightful addition to the party.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:09:35 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks, Gerry. nt [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:03:53 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sandwich bags and vacuuming
Message:
I enjoyed reading Housemother's and Marianne's exchange below on the minutiae of ashram life, and the central role housemothers (and the occasional housefather) played in our lives, in several cases probably preventing death by malnutrition.
The ashram was an example of the patriarchal system in full bloom, rationalised by the mantra of 'surrender', in which housemums get to see God in the eternal sandwich bag. It also provided several examples of a pathological obsession with cleanliness. One of my housemothers even started vacuuming while we were still meditating in the morning!
I'd like to pay tribute to all the mums who woke me up in the morning, fed me, in some cases tolerated my indifference to their burdens, and kept the house in a much greater order than any of the other (pick up a number between 8 and 20) people living there would have bothered to do. Their efforts were superhuman.
I lived in ashrams for about four years, both in Sydney and Denver. One of the economy measures in Denver was to make a meal of the leftovers for the week - this was cleverly known as 'week-at-a-glance'.
At no stage do I recall an obsession on anyone's part with saris, though I now have a fondness for sarongs on hot days. The sad part of the revisionist PR fantasies of some of our erstwhile confreres, seeking to attribute disenchantment to a failure of understanding, is that they deny the full-blooded, realistic efforts of folks like housemothers who sought to experience devotion for itself, not for the Hindu trappings around it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:01:43 (EST)
From: Suzie
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Sexist, wasn't it??
Message:
The sisters did the housework and cooking so the brothers could do the real, important service, like shuffle papers around in the community office and pretend like there was actually something happening.

When was it, like late 70s, when the goo decided that their should be separate ashrams for men and women? At that point, the brothers did have to fend for themselves food-wise.

Although women did hold some, few positions in DLM in the 70s, the leadership was dominated by the brothers.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:15:02 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Suzie
Subject: Re: Sexist, wasn't it?
Message:
So true. I missed the gender division period. The early 70's were about the patriarchy....the goo himself...the godfather of sexism.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 04:16:27 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Your experience was better than mine!
Message:
I lived in a premie house that had a housemother. Of course we were all as poor as church mice. At one time there were 10 of us living in a five bedroom house, one bathroom. There were lots of good times for sure and I recall pondering that the only way all of us got along as well as we did was because we were all trying to practice K. A shared goal united us. But there were lots of problems and several sick personalities who inhabitated that house.
The deal with our housemother was she didn't have to pay rent or utilities, we gave her x number of dollars a week for food and she would make dinner and clean. She was miserable! I didn't blame her at the time because there was no way in hell I would agree to that drugery! Let me earn a paycheck, attend my college courses anyday. This mismatch for her she endured because she thought it was what M wanted! It went downhill quickly for her. She ended up pregnant and married way before she was emotionally capable of doing either. And very miserable for many, many years. The house disolved shortly there after and we all got our own places. Our housemother and her new hubby ended up living with his folks. Their marriage was short lived and as far as I know they are both still in the cult. That's how I recall it, sorry it isn't brighter. Oh well.

Sincerely,
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:59:39 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Your experience was better than mine!
Message:
Tonette, I think your experience of emotionally immature and mentally disturbed housemates was pretty common. Of course in the ashram we had no contact with money. Once everyone gave over all their money, trust funds, savings, hard earned minimum wage pay checks, (cars, jewelry, even houses) to the Goo, then we were 'taken care of.' I remember not owning a pair of shoes, only flip-flops, for over a year.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:36:32 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: I know that
Message:
The ashram, premie house scene was somewhat similar but I think you guys had it much worse, those in the ashram that is.
My reply to this post was to shed some light on what I saw as opposed to the slightly proselytizing slant this thread was taking.
So you agree, the whole scene and a large part of the people who subscribed to it were at the best disturbed?
Is that what you are saying?

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:46:12 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Re: Sandwich bags and vacuuming
Message:
Thank you McDuck. Back in the day, being a housemum was about taking care of premies AS service so that they could do the service that we all so fervently believed would move us toward 'realizing knowledge.' Being a housemum in the US was about as American as apple pie. No saris, nothing Indian, it was cooking, cleaning, laundry, nurturing sick premies, counseling depressed premies, all the while trying to be strong and selfless. For me the best reward was the love and gratitude that my fellow ashramites gave in return. We all gave so much because we really believed in what we were doing. If it had been the real thing, we would all still be doing it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:38:12 (EST)
From: Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: Re: Sandwich bags and vacuuming
Message:
(OT) First, thanks to all of you all for your responses to my posts over the past months. I really appreciate your comments and kindness and help. I really appreciate EPO. I agree with so many of you, and am so happy to be back taking care of me and my family full-time without having to spend all of my resources following around a false guru. Shame. What an idiot I was.

BACK ON TOPIC: Upon being transferred from IHQ Denver to another city for no reason back in the middle 70s, angry and mad, I told the new housemother upon my arrival that I would be going into the kitchen and the refrigerator whenever I wanted and eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. She totally freaked!!! But I held my ground. She just could not believe the words that had come out of my mouth. Eventually, I took her job. She cooked like shit. White bread, tomato soup, macaroni and cheese. Horrible. Didn’t really care a bit about nutrition or anything else. She was in love with one of the brothers in the house, and that’s all that mattered to her. He was rich and got a pass on everything. His donations were infamous, though he kept a bank account on the side, I think. The housemom eventually left M and K (not with that brother) and I’m sure her kids are similarly suffering today from her lousy food.

When I returned from my first day working at a real job “out in the world” (it was my first in years), I seemed to have had developed a nasty headache. I guess it was from sitting in an office where 40% of the employees CHAINSMOKED AT THEIR DESKS ALL DAY. [Smoking wasn’t banned from most offices until the late 80’s.] The headache was mean. My housefather, MR. RANDY PROUDY, when I told him I wasn’t going to satsang that night, completely freaked out on me: “What? What do you mean, you’re not going to satsang tonight? You’re GOING to satsang!” Meanwhile he was surreptitiously involved in a rather hot back-of-the-van relationship with one of our SISTERS in the house. Beautiful woman. Still is. Loved her myself -- but as my sister. Still do. What a bunch of nutcases we were. The ashram was totally out of control.

My last hosuefather had a bad confirmed case of gambling disease. He couldn’t help himself. He took all of our money and tried to double it each week at the racetrack. Sometimes we ate tofu, other times we went out for dinner three nights a week. It was sort of hit and miss thing. (Prior to M and K, this guy was actually pronounced dead one night in a hospital in Las Vegas, but a friend of his was a nurse, recognized him dead on the table and pleaded with everyone to try and revive him, which was accomplished. He then got Knowledge, but never got over his gambling addiction. That heroin is a nasty powder, no?)

Remember those huge dining room wooden tables (prison style) that we had in those ashrams? One day, I just had had enough of one of my housemate’s Latin caliente ego. She was known throughout Denver as the hottest head in town. After one of her biting remarks, one morning, I just lifted up from the middle of the table on my side, and turned the entire table on to her. The yogurt was flying, I tell ya. I just couldn’t take it any more.

But it took me 20 more years to leave. What a chump I was. Thanks to all my housemothers over the years. And thanks to my wife, a former housemother, also now exe, who gave more than her all for 30 years, got burned out, but never gave up.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:13:32 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby
Subject: Vive la revolucion!
Message:
Hey OTS et al.:

I love these stories of rebellion. I'm sure we all have similar stories to tell about how we colored over the lines, each in our own inimitable fashion. I can't believe I used to think I was in my mind (or out of my mind) when I'd go to a Pewter Pot with a close premie friend and we'd drink coffee and eat muffins instead of trolling on the streets looking for someone to 'propagate' to. ~) I have plenty of stories on that front, fer shure.

Keep them doggies rolling...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:10:45 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby
Subject: To Missy/OTS etc.
Message:
Hi Henrietta and co.,

I'm pretty sure I know who you are and I welcome you to our party, dude (and will preserve your anon). I was called Katie Baier when you knew me, way back on Miami Beach, (now Katie Darling). I snuck out of the cult in 1984.

Congratulations on your successful exit. I'd love to hear from you if you want to e-mail me. I'm still in touch with John from time to time. I live in the SF Bay area.

love ktd

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 23:03:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby
Subject: It just doesnt' get better than this! :)
Message:
That was fun to read. Shit! YOu could have milked that post for at least four **Best of Forums**

1. Usurping the housemother's position

2. Randy Proudy (and he was a hotty himself) shagging a sister

3. Housefather who Gambled the Lord's devotee's household money

4. Overturning the merchant tables like Jesus in the Temple

DANG! I Lovvvvve this post. I love it!

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:14:47 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby
Subject: The cult of purification
Message:
God, how come my ashrams were never that interesting? Crazy, sure, but at least they weren't deadly boring. My ashrams were much more straight-laced, following the rules, at least for the most part.

In my first ashram, which I moved into directly from my dorm room the day after I graduated from college [the other premies came to my graduation, made me wear a 'button' with M's fat face on it, and yelled Bohle Shri during the ceremony -- another horrible, embarrassing story], the housemother decided that it would be best if we all ate a 'raw foods' diet, using the excuse that we would be purifying out bodies in order to be of better service to the Lord of the Univserse. I had a job in a produce store and unloaded large boxes and crates of produce every morning. I lost about 30 pounds, and I didn't have that much to lose to begin with. That housemother left shortly thereafter, got pregnant and then married. I have no idea where she is now.

There was always an undercurrent in the cult about purification. The idea was that knowledge was purging you of your mind, as Maharaji told us repeatedly, including in the letter we got from him when we received knowledge, and so the freak-outs, suffering, misery, etc., were often seen as the mind resisting its destruction, and a necessary part of the purification process Maharaji was performing on us. In the Atlantic City conference, Maharaji described the ashram as 'instensive care' or a 'hospital' and the process was equivalent of having fragments of glass painfully removed from your body. This was often the excuse for the ashrams being such awful places.

Anyhow, I think this 'purification' concept extended to our bodies as well, and as you all know, premies were forever trying to also purify their bodies with food-trips, fasts, colonics...you name it.

It was all so sick because Maharaji was basically telling us we were dirty, infected, diseased and needed to be purified. There was a huge element of self debasement and self hatred in what Maharaji preached. Plus when people like David Smith and other sadists prayed on the ashram premies, many premies by that time were such masochists they they thought they deserved to be abused and it was all part of the purification process, Maharaji being in complete control of that purification for each one of us.

When I watched the Atlanta Training video, I felt many of those premies in the audience were still in that place. They sat quietly, many with faint smiles on their faces, as Maharaji told them they were too stupid and defective to even tell anyone else about their own experience, and that they had really fucked him in his attempts at propagation in the past and put him into a hole propagation-wise. Of course, not one person disagreed with Maharaji, or stood up for themselves, or questioned his ineffective, contradictory, and illogical leadership. Nor did they raise the obvious point, that he can't, on the one hand, claim that everything comes from 'the master' and then say that all the problems and mistakes are due to the actions of others.

Anyhow, in that house was a woman with whom I received knowledge in the same knowledge session. Her nazi-like brother lived there as well. She is now head of the corporation that owns Maharaji's residences and his planes. I'm sure she has seen a lot.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:49:46 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Postprandial Hot Fudge Sundaes
Message:
I had a housemother (actually it was a mother/daughter team from Maine who were into the au naturel thang big time) who fed us raw food for months. Pretty soon, everyone was sneaking out of the house and we'd all run into each other at the local ice cream joint scarfing down postprandial hot fudge sundaes. })
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 09:42:55 (EST)
From: Gina in Atlanta
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Anuthah Muthah
Message:
Quite right! I WAS a housemother at a musicians house in Atlanta, '74, where everybody decided to do the raw vegetable and juice thing for about 6 months. I got so tired of making giant salads and salad dressing and juicing 50-pound bags of carrots and making raw soaked granola with raw nutmilk for breakfast that I started sneaking chocolate candy bars and snacks for myself when I went out to do the food shopping every week! I know everyone else in the house was doing the same thing...the housefather actually called ME out about it, but then I found 'chunky' candy bar wrappers in the floor of the car the guys drove!
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:07:55 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The cult of purification
Message:
Hi Joe, I spent the last two days on jury duty, a domestic violence case, really awful. So I'll be back in touch thru email soon.

I want to comment on the purification issue. You know when I went back to school after leaving the cult and got my Ph.D. (definitely in my mind) I studied a lot of ancient philosophy and religion. The concept of 'purification' is big in most ancient traditions, especially the ones with religious ties, e.g., Judaism, Buddhism, Xtianity, etc. Purification was about ridding oneself of greed, dishonesty, hatred, self-hatred, self-interested manipulation of people and things. The negative qualities that were thought (rightly, I think) to bring about the inability to have healthy social relationships, the inability to live at ease with one's self, and the inability to put the mundane aside from time to time to focus on spiritual development. It is so interesting to me that much of what Rawat, the fraudulent goo, teaches are bastardizations and corruptions of previous philosophical/spiritual traditions. Like the meditation techniques. Almost all schools of meditation teach focusing on the breath as an object of concentration. There's nothing spiritual about the breath, but it's object that one can concentrate on in order to feel some peace and gain some insights that come from THE MIND! The mind, in all traditions, is considered the WAY TO WISDOM AND ENLIGHTENMENT. That whole 'surrender' notion is a class based structure determined by the fact that in the caste system, only the Brahmins learned to read and write. If you wanted to be taught, you 'surrendered' to the knowledge and experience of a trustworthy, educated, mentor. The trickle down theory of surrender that Rawat used, created a hierarchy that began with the goo and ended with someone controlling how much salad dressing you used is a perversion of the philosophical and spiritual traditions from which it began. ONLY a cult tells someone not to trust their mind.

You know he knows he's a fake; no wonder he drinks and acts out. He must be a miserable human being.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:23:34 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: Talking of salad dressing.. Mr. Feel-bad
Message:
Does anyone remember MJ ranting about eggless mayonnaise? He was appalled that people were trying to 'cheat' the system (i.e. vegetarianism) by using eggless mayonnaise. He was definitely implying that we should be following the ashram rules more closely. I really didn't like those satsangs. He really sounded mean, and he must have mentioned it in every satsang for a few months.

Some other things I didn't like about his satsangs, now that I can TALK BACK to the SCREEN...

* the endless repetition of the Eknot story which implied you should leave your family to move into the ashram and follow your guru - even if they are completely dependent on you
* his reference to American TV programs I had never seen
* his references to cars
* his general tendency to alternate being Mr. Feelgood with Mr. Feelbad. He was the good cop and the bad cop. Many premies never saw the bad cop unless they got into a more inner circle, like an ashram meeting, but ha ha, we've got him now with the Atlanta training video.

I was telling a friend at dinner last night about seeing this video. The friend was a former follower of the American guru Andrew Cohen, and he told me this story: He took a woman friend to see Andrew Cohen in Holland, and halfway through the talk, she walked out. Andrew was doing his usual rant about people not getting it or something (never saw him but know many exes). My friend followed her out and said, what's up, and she said, 'He's playing the 'feel-bad' game.' He's making people feel bad so that they will stay around to feel better. He exited soon after that. Lucky to have had such a perspicacious friend.

Love ktd-feeling-chatty-cos-hubby's-away

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:18:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: That was at the Kissimee swamp
Message:
Eggless Mayonnaise was one example, as was tofu that was cooked to taste like meat, and I remember he had an absolute fit about 'Dr. Tima Cola' which is this sort of healthy alternative to Coke. Yes, it was about sticking to the rules, but also about avoiding sacrifices by accepting alternatives.

In the ashram meeting at that same hell-hole festival, Maharaji ranted on continuing the cola theme. That's when he said we were so perverted and in our minds that if we found a dead rat in a Coca Cola bottle, we would suck the rat to get all the cola out. I know Francesa remembers this revolting talk as well.

Let's face it Maharaji is whacked. He really is nuts.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:06:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: Re: The cult of purification
Message:
So true housemom.

I was fertile ground for the purification idea from my Catholic upbringing. I was taught from the Baltimore Catechism that my soul was a pure-white bottle of milk that had black, dirty spots on it (sin) and it had to be purified through pennance, good works, and 'sanctifying grace.'

So, Maharaji said it was my 'mind' that was essentially the devil, had to be purified by his 'grace' through the practice of knowledge in the hospital of the ashram. Although I wasn't consciously buying the whole Catholic belief system when I received knowledge, M's speil played right into it.

It hasn't changed either. In that Atlanta training video Maharaji says that mind can't understand knowledge, can't describe or grasp it, and therefore you have to avoid your mind to experience it and certainly to tell anybody else about it. Mind is still the problem in M's world.

True, the essence of a cult is that you can't trust your own thoughts. If you can't do that, you can't doubt and if you can't do that you are stuck in the cult, because you are then incapable of evaluation or analysis.

I think Maharaji probably is quite miserable much of the time. I have seen him be very pissed off, and in that video he didn't seem particularly content or happy. But he is able to be miserable surrounded by servants, at least a few thousand worshipping people, and lots of really bright, shiny things.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:43:03 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I flunked religion cuz of that milk bottle
Message:
Hey Joe:

You're the first person I've met who remembers those g.d. milk bottles. One day in class, I raised my hand and asked Sr. Mary PerpetualMisery how many venial sins equaled a mortal sin. She told me I couldn't ask that question. I insisted (I was all of about 9 years old) that eventually all the the little black dots would be one big black dot, so she told me again that I couldn't ask that question. She flunked me in religion for asking that question. After that, I just spent most of my time speculating about whether she was bald or not, and if she had had her breasts cut off so she'd fit into her habit. At least I didn't verbalize those two ruminations.

I'd love to see the Catholic Church disappear. +)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:40:14 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: I didn't flunk catechism...
Message:
I would of been beaten for that. But, while in preparation for my first 'unholy communion' the nuns gave us 7 year olds practice books of sins, yes, little mimeographed booklets to give us a good idea of what sins were, so we'd know what to say in our first confession.

The nuns also lectured us little ones extensively that if we bit the communion wafer, blood would come out, being the body of Christ and all.

I had two cousins who were nuns. (They both left the convent.)

I too would love to see that church disappear, too. b)

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:34:18 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The dalmation soul
Message:
Oh Joe, hahahaha about the soul being white milk and our sins black dots on it (like a dalmation). You sound like Sister St. Peter from my catechism class. It was all that early '60's Catholic indoctrination. My Catholic upbringing definately played a big role in getting sucked in too.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:24:06 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: shiny happy people
Message:
I know that in Buddhism and Judaism, and in certain xtian disciplines, the way to wisdom, compassion and enlightenment is through training the mind to do thorough INVESTIGATION and DISCRIMINATION. If you don't develope the innate ability to discriminate, then you're anyone's victim, as we well know.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:08:15 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: Missy/OTS/Henrietta and Hank Wallaby
Subject: great post!
Message:
We really believed in the mission! We can't blame ourselves for being sincere and trusting, those are still good qualities I want my own kids to have, we can feel responsible for allowing anyone to abuse us, that should never be tolerated for a minute. We all should have left the second we got wind that it was really all about POWER, not enlightenment, not liberation from suffering. And of course the true responsibility and blame lies with Rawat, the little fat man manipulating the minds of the innocent and fattening the egos and wallets of the power hungry. May he get his.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:44:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: May He Get His!
Message:
Hi Housemom,

I like your posts a lot. You're honest and don't spare words. We had pretty good food in the Hartford, CT ashram. When I got to Deca, living at the Broadripple (the former whorehouse and NOT renovated) there was plenty of food.

But, because most of the Deca premies worked long hours we got our food served cold in styrofoam containers. Fatty, bad food. But, mostly I lived on coffee.

I remember once the housemother in Hartford yelling at us because we were putting too much salad dressing on our salads. She'd inspect our plates and if there was a puddle of dressing there, she'd remind us not to waste the dressing.

I would just roll my eyes and take as much as I pleased and later told her she was being ridiculous. Others, (all sisters) measured the dressing out. But I do remember having a salad dressing meeting at one point to hash it all out.

Ah, what a waste of my life!

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:24:47 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: cult of pettiness !?!?
Message:
Hi Cynthia, Can you believe how fixated people became on the petty details!?!? I think that sometimes, it was a way of feeling like you had SOME control over your life. Maybe you gave up everything else to an incompetent religious fraud, and were living under the rules of incompetent ashram directors, but by god, you could control the amount of salad dressing someone used. You know, I worked in domestic violence for some years after I left, and that kind of petty control is pretty common in abusive relationships. We were so naive.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:30:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: Yes, naive and gullible...
Message:
I'm a survivor of extreme domestic violence in childhood so I know all about those kind of control issues. I was so gullible and naive, but the salad dressing thing was way over the top for me.

I agree with you about premies like that housemom, who had no other control over her life other than monitoring salad dressing. Too sad.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 07:10:32 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Yes, naive and gullible...
Message:
Another ridiculous, petty, cheap-assed one: subway tokens for the Toronto subway. It didn't affect me (wasn't an ashramer) but the vow of poverty meant ashramers were damn near penniless all the time. In Toronto, that was even extended to subway (essential to getting around there) tokens. They (ashramers) were constantly having to chase down the 'subway token lady' to get (no more than two - return trip) subway tokens. This probably was one of my firsts drips. So silly. So incredibly cheap. Then years later Der Fearer casually mentions in a video that he had to chide his son for wanting a car and instead brags that he bought him a truck - paid for with financially-starved followers' hard-earned money. What a complete asshole - not to mention depriving his son of acquiring any kind of motivation to get off his lazy butt and get out there and earn and pay his own way just like everybody else. A 'Master'? I don't think so!
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:06:41 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hartford
Message:
Were you already at DECA in the summer of 1979?

I was in DC then and we had a regional program in Hartford and invited M to attend, with Randy Prouty on the phone to 'the residence' to get him to show up.

So, somebody let us use this very nice house in Hartford as a "residence", and a bunch of us stayed up all night and did the kind of thing that Mitch Ditkoff mentioned -- we cleaned the grout between the tiles in the bathroom with a toothbrush -- even though M wouldn't stay there for more than one night and various other ridiculous things so the Lord God could put his lotus feet into the place. We got no sleep, we slaved like....slaves, and of course, he didn't show up. Were you there?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:22:04 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Hartford
Message:
I was called down to Deca in May of 1979. So no, I wasn't at that regional program--in Hartford? I never heard about it. What did the house look like, I may know whose it was.

I have, however, done the toothbrush through the tiles thing a few times in Gainesville, and, of course, in Miami.

I'm not surprised he didn't show up. He was already in Miami bossing us other slaves around. Plane priorities, you see.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 21:55:46 (EST)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Singer and Hassan on cults:
Message:
These quotes have been posted before, but they are worth repeating, especially for new readers and posters.

Margaret Singer:

'Cults seem to have no end to their peculiar practices. Cult leaders seem to have no end to their unconscionable behaviors and their capacity to abuse their followers.'

Cults basically have only two purposes: recruiting new members and fundraising. Established religions and altruistic movements may also recruit and raise funds. Their sole purpose, however, is not simply to grow larger and wealthier; such groups have as goals bettering the lives of their members or humankind in general, either in this world or in a world to come. A cult may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality these remain mere claims or gestures. In the end, all work and all funds, even token gestures of altruism, serve the cult.'

Steve Hassan:

'The casualties of mind control include not only the millions of cult members themselves, their children, and their friends and loved ones, but also our society as well.

Our nation is being robbed of our greatest resource: bright,idealistic,ambitious people who are capable of making an enormous contribution to mankind.

Many of the former members I know have become doctors, teachers, counsellors, inventors, artists.

Imagine what cult members could accomplish if they were all set free to develop their God-given talents and abilities!

What if they channelled their energies into problem solving, rather than trying to undermine America's freedoms with some warped totalitarian vision?'

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:28:41 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: excellent quotes!
Message:
btw, did you ever borrow that nice 35 mm camera with a zoom lens and head up Trancas Canyon Rd. in Malibu to Anacapa View and take the pics of the 28,000 sq ft walled palace? #23, at the end of the road which curves left, past the gate. ya can't miss it. it's the biggest spread of the jet-setters.

epo needs some decent ground-level pics, for folks around the world to see for themselves. I'm surprised nobody in the area has done this already.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 21:23:24 (EST)
From: yeah_right_210
Email: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: a couple of thoughts
Message:
Below, the question is asked, who is reading Ex-Premie.Org. Not the rabid premies, no doubt. Nor the healthily recovering ex-premies, I should think. I myself have given the sight to a few people, completely uninterested friends, but in a manner of asking them to look it and Maharaji.net over and telling me what they thought. One answer was priceless, and it was regarding rawat's site. My friend said to me, '''What is this guy about? I went to the site and he says, ''Be happy.'' Wow. What kind of message is that? I would never have thought of that one!'' He was blown away. Not by any profound message of rawat's, but rather by the banality and meaningless of the whole bloody thing. It was refreshing to chat with him about it. Rather reaffirmed my own feelings somewhat.
On another tack. I have posted here a few times and some of you know my troubles with my partner's devotion to the greed-guru. I did find something to be grateful for. This is a second relationship for both of us, and given the advancing age we both are facing, it is a relief not to have to make the decision whether or not to have a child. I say it is a relief to not have to make that decision because I would refuse to have a child with a cult member. And such a discussion would only add to the tension in our home. However, I am curious to ask those who had children while being heavily involved in the cult. How on earth did you do it? Not only the neglect of the children and family during the long times of ''practicing knowledge'', but all the rest? It seems utterly impossible, as those who I know who are in the cult are incredibly selfish people and it is hard to imagine them being parents and able to give of themselves to their children. None of them seem to have been very successful at it, I must say! Their families are nearly one and all shattered, seemingly beyond repair. These ''premies'' quit jobs regularly, were quite content to be on welfare if it meant being able to follow rawat about. They are fairly unsettled, even in their later years, and almost to the last one, they have vile self images. That is probably one of the most perplexing things to me. I see rawat telling them all the usual crap. They, by all accounts, should be utterly happy. Most of them are miserable! And, as I said, with horrid self image. If anyone can explain any of this, I would be most grateful.
Thank you again, all of you. You are a port in a storm.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:16:29 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Re: a couple of thoughts
Message:
I know I'm not a typical former premie because, since 1981, I cared too much for being able to retire in something other than abject poverty to waste precious financial resources in chasing Der Fearer all over the globe - in particular, to Amoral (sp?) Australia. I found I could not explain going to video programs in terms that would have made any sense to my son so I just didn't talk about my involvement with M at all. He and my wife are very liberal in their overall political views and just tolerated my involvement as best they could. Still, to avoid arguments with either of them over M, I made considerable efforts to avoid discussing anything to do with M with them. It was awkward and was one thing that kept both of them from feeling more open to talking about ANYTHING with me. I definitely paid a price with them for following M. Since I exed, 5 weeks ago, communication with each of them has improved quite a bit since they can sense I no longer have a 'secret life' apart from them. Things are slowly getting better.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 14:22:40 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Re: a couple of thoughts
Message:
Hi Steve,

I liked your post above. My husband went through a similar thing while I was still involved. It must be a great relief to your family to know you've gotten out.

Amoral, Australia, YUP, you spelled it right. Good that you're keeping your sense of humour about all this.

One indication that you just exited a cult is that you had to lead a ''secret life'' apart from them. That's a huge clue to figuring all this stuff out.

I'm happy you are here. If you ever want to email me, please do so at sylviecyn@yahoo.com and I promise to answer.

I am also happy that you've been brave enough to use your real name. (It is your real name, isn't it?).

Best,
Cynthia J. Gracie
Vermont, USA

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:49:45 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: a couple of thoughts
Message:
Yup. That's my name. Middle initial is 'A' (Anthony) so my nephews and neices can rightfully refer to me as their Uncle SAM.

Secrecy for all those years, yeah, that's right. (Almost like a secret agent or something.) It's hard to believe that not that long ago I was SO TOTALLY BRAINWASHED that when the thought: LARD OF THE UNIVERSE bounced thru my head on occasion, I would immediately feel pangs of guilt (!!!!!) and chastise myself with having committed the equivalent of what Catholics call a mortal sin and say under my breath: Please forgive me, M! Can you believe it?! Man, what a trip he took us on! Even though M has officially avoided using or permitting use of that phrase for decades, the effects of his early 70's hype still follow me around. Boy, my wife and (step)son MUST have really really loved me to put up with me and my secret life for all those years. I have more to share with you but I'll take that offline. Thanks for your encouragement, Cynthia.

I'll be doing my Journey soon which will include an astounding revelation concerning a federal conspiracy that screwed thousands of Viet Nam era military deserters (like myself) from taking advantage of Ford's Amnesty. Premies from San Antonio's City of Love and Light visited me while I was in the Navy's jail. (Any of you reading this remember that?) More to come in my Journey.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:24:49 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: I'm glad you brought this up
Message:
Children of premies have always been in my book the most innocent and perhaps most harmed by Maharaji and his sick little game. I think for the most part premies tried to be loving parents but as far a being coherant, effective and good parents, well that is another matter. In fact, they sucked from what I saw. Even I could see in my young twenties, with no experience yet as a mother, that there was definately some really bad things happening to premie children. Yes, lots of unwed mothers, broken marriages, and downright neglect. And from what I could discern, even while I was possessed by cult thinking and perspective, it was wrong. It's perhaps the worst shame of all that Maharaji and the people who sung his praises are responsible for and perhaps the best hidden- What premie children were subjected to.
I get the feeling from this forum that there are not too many parents here. That's okay but I am a parent, I have never loved anything nor anyone as much as I love my son and daughter. They are my heart and soul and I would do anything to protect them. Providing for them, giving them the best experiences and opportunites, guiding them is essentially how I think a parent shows their love. Love is not words! It's dyanamic. But I didn't see that in the premie parents I knew. The prevailing attitude was, Maharaji will help us, Maharaji will take care of it, ect. I still can't understand, cult inflicted or not, how a parent's basic instinct could be neutralized to the degree that it was. Don't get me wrong, not all premies sucked as parents but I will list some examples of what I witnessed and try not to cry, these are some painful memories:

When Premlata was born there was a very measurable population explosion among the premies. Alot of sisters wanted to be just like M's wife and proceeded to do just that. Married or not, able to support themselves or not, ready or not; some of these derranged women were very young, 19, 20 or perhaps 21. I know three who followed this path and I'm sure there were many others. They really thought that in order to practice knowledge better and be a true devotee they had to really surrender by having a child, just like Marolyn. I am not making this up! 'Look at Durga Ji! She's such a beautiful devotee!' Let's be just like her. Alot of premies were not having children because they wanted them, they were copying Maharaji and his wife.
I remember a sister I knew with a 3 year old daughter, on welfare, dad is not in picture, he was just a sperm donor, sending 10% of her welfare check to Maharaji. Meanwhile her daughter has not had her checkups, immunizations, is eating millet for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Sick, eh? If I remember correctly and I do, Maharaji had three kids at this point and they were enjoying their private education, thanks to Anth, fine clothes and I doubt they were eating much millet, if at all.
Same sister, desparate, sells her car so she can pay for a trip to Miami.
Premie children numbering about 25 or 30 packed into, nightly, a room 10x10 for childcare while their parents listened to satsang for two or more hours.
And what about the festivals. Oh it looked all pretty and sweet and nice on the outside but some of theses kids were 2 or 3. Left for 10-12 hours at a time? Mixed with older children among stangers?
How about all the complaining premies did about their young children? Oh, I can't meditate because the kid woke up, or was sick, or needed some sort of attention. 'I'm just so freaked out because I missed my meditation because of my child. Can't possibly function correctly!' Or better yet, 'I can't do the amont of service I should do because I have this child hindering me.' Lots of resentment.
How about the immaturity and ignorance I saw among these so called parents? I'll never forget this one sister I knew, who was messing around sexually with a brother in front of her 4 year old. I know this to be true because this guy, won't call him a man, an ashramer no less, was so bothered by it he came to talk to me about it. I told her husband, what I should of done is call the child protection agency. Her husband, mister premieji, just put the whole incident in Maharaji's hands.
Never saw these kids get dental care.
Medical care only when extemely sick. Most of the time these educated, advanced parents(not) consulted the local homeopathic premie witchdoctor. Real doctors, just like the world, were to be avoided. We might get in our minds, was the cult speak.
The instability experienced by these children! Lots of moving sometimes. No set bedtime. Routine not important.
Another poignant and painful memory I have is of some initiator saying in satsang, at a program in Miami, how disgusted he was with the large number of pregnant premies he saw go through darshan that day. At the time Marolyn was quite ripe with child herself.

I have had enough with this post I am writing. I could say more but really I have to stop.
I too, cannot understand, to this day, how in the name of love, devotion, ect. ect. ect., some of these events concerning children could have transpired. And just why was it never addressed by the cult?

Good luck and hang in there. Feel free to email me because I too, had to live many years with a premie, my husband after I was through. He has been a wonderful father but thankfully he was never a die-hard, Maharaji is it, type of guy. Otherwise, it never would of worked between us. But make no mistake, Maharaji's world has interfered, although not mortally harmed, our family. I'm so glad I finally found out the truth. And I can not tell you how thankful I am that my husband is out!

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 10:43:53 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Re: a couple of thoughts
Message:
Many years ago, children who were stuck in 'daycare' week in, week out, in Denver, during nightly satsangs, revolted. They stormed the Bastille and broke out. They had had enough. Maharaji supposedly told the premies to spend time with their kids, but who knows if that's a fact or fiction.

After Rajaji and Maharaji got married and started having children, there was an explosion in premie pregnancies. With the big push for living in the ashram to be truly dedicated, it was a struggle for a lot of people. The pressure of attending constant events all over the world was huge, with children in tow.

I saw some attrocious things through the years, that were directly attributable to the gypsy lifestyle most premies lived. There was a time when having a child was a really bad thing, because we were all being hounded to move into the ashram, except of course the Malibu and Italian bigwigs. I know of some pwk women who started a 'mother's ashram' in Oakland, they were so hurting at not being able to dedicate and surrender.

I also saw some amazing parenting among the pwk's. But I think they were naturally, well balanced people who had common sense and truly loved and cared about their children's well being, inspite of the pressures of being a premie.

Then the halt to daycare at programs and events happened. It was uncool to have children anywhere near events. I saw pwks at hotels desperately trying to find babysitters for their children.

My children were born in the early eighties. Luckily, they had grandparents that adored them and basicially provided a second home.
My husband and I would take turns going into the programs, when they were with us. But I do remember twice letting them stay in the hotel, when they got to be eleven or twelve. It makes me shudder to this day.

I had it fairly easy with a partner that didn't turn into a gopi, like myself. But I remember once a pwk who had very little money, ordering his wife to go buy Hansi a birthday present, when their own child needed a winter coat. Thank god she had the common sense to get the coat and send a card instead.

The pressure was enormous, I can tell you that. It was only this past year, that my daughter needed me for medical reasons, during two events that were within our state, that I stayed home, instead of relying on 'grace' to take care of her, along with my parents. My mother, who's battling cancer, needed me during an event, and I chose to stay with her, rather than letting her down. My brother is closeby, but emotionally she needed me at that particular time. In the past, I would not have stayed. It was interesting, in retrospect, because this was before finding EPO. One of the longtime Indian premies, told me not to worry, Maharaji knew I was there with him in my heart, and what I was going through......tell me how that was possible unless he's 'the superior power in person.'

The level of gopiness dictates, in my opinion, how much a pwk will sacrifice their family when in comes to Maharaji and k. And how much they feel the guilt when their family's needs conficts with a program, and event, a satellite showings, sending money etc.

I confess I always loved the pearls of wisdom Maharaji would drop about children. In retrospect, I find it laughable knowing what kind of father he really is, and the lifestyle he has subjected his kids.
I saw an interview with an actress, who is the offspring of major Hollywood actors/producers. She grew up in Malibu. She said her only goal in life was 'sex, drugs and rock n roll'. That growing up in Malibu, that's all they do, ie hang out. Kinda explained Rawat's kids.

So yes, I think you are lucky in that respect. I don't know how my kids and husband put up with me all these years. They had to feel like second class citizens many times. I should ask them. But one thing I have to say is, from your postings, I think any child would have been very fortunate to have had you for a parent.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:18:27 (EST)
From: yeah_right_210
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: a couple of thoughts
Message:
''But one thing I have to say is, from your postings, I think any child would have been very fortunate to have had you for a parent.''

Thank you. I am grateful for your comment. It came at a much needed time for me.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:54:58 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: P.S.
Message:
I'm a grandparent now, which not so coincidentaly coincided with my last year in and now out, of Maharaji's imagined world.

Becoming a grandparent is different than becoming a parent, but already I can tell I'm a much better grandparent, now that I don't have Maharaji and knowledge sitting in priority. I feel so much freer to enjoy other humans on this planet in a way I never did with knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, I've loved and adored and been a fierce protector of my children, but there was always this thing, that 'better not be too attatched to them'. Then as a topper, Maharaji told us not long ago, that he had to sit his family down, tell them that he had been doing this service long before they came along, and he was basically not stopping for them.

Indeed! I knew nothing about his carrying on or Monica, so it was a powerful thing to hear that even the lord himself put his beloved family second to knowledge. Now I feel he couldn't stay home and be a husband and father if his life depended on it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:05:24 (EST)
From: yeah_right_210
Email: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: P.S.
Message:
now that I don't have Maharaji and knowledge sitting in priority.

Then as a topper, Maharaji told us not long ago, that he had to sit his family down, tell them that he had been doing this service long before they came along, and he was basically not stopping for them.


---

Thank you for the statement, ''Maharaji and knowledge sitting in priority.'' Some of you know what it is like to come in second to your partner's abject devotion to an imagined ''teacher'' or ''master'', and I use the words in their broadest sense. It becomes increasingly hard to accept. I am determined not to give way to a third party in the relationship.

I've been very puzzled by the children of premies. Someone pointed out that many premies don't have children and I realized that it is true, or in many cases, the children are estranged from the parent(s). The other interesting thing I have observed is that virtually none of the children of premies I know, who are now all grown, are devotees or followers of rawat. Is this typical or have I merely found an unusual situation?

On another topic,I tried to explain darshan to an 'outside' friend recently. (I finally came to the conclusion that I need to have one friend near by with whom I can discuss this matter.) He looked at me in amazement and astonishment. I'm not quite sure he believed what I was telling him. His opinion was that such an action, giving darshan, is most certainly not compatible with any relationship which is supposedly based on ''love''. Demeaning and pathetic are the proper adjectives.

I, too, saw the broadcast in which rawat told his devotees what he had said to his family. I looked around me, utterly floored that the premies were all still sitting there, obviously adoring that horrid creature and his every word. It was completely clear to me at that point that they are not listening to him, nor hearing him. Pity.

Thank you, too, for your input on being a grandparent. We will be facing that in a few months and it has been a matter of much concern to me. There is this 'thing' with my partner, wherein the day cannot start without first 'practicing'. God forbid anything have to happen before the sacred hour is accomplished
---
if indeed one hour will suffice, which it rarely does. Our lives can not start until after the practicing. How incredibly odd. Is that a rawat directive? If, due to unusual circumstances, my partner cannot practice first thing, the strangest thing happens. I hear constantly that this brilliant, sensitive human being simply can't function, can't handle anything, can't get in touch
---
whatever the blazes that means. So, rawat has succeded in not only crippling and constricting my beloved's life, but mine is totally bound by the greed-guru's whims, also.

My thanks to all who post here. You are helping me and a great many others live with the situation until it can be resolved. I hope daily, hourly, for the final fall of the cult and all its trappings.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:25:47 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Re: P.S.
Message:
Yep, I remember being like that for years and years and years. Not too long ago, Maharaji told how Wadi, newly with knowledge, told him if she didn't practice first thing in the day, her day was a big struggle. His answer was something along the lines of, yes because you're fighting a big storm all day long.

In the old days, we had to meditate for an hour each morning and an hour each night. It then went down to an hour sometime in the twenty-four hour period but Maharaji used to say that was the absolute 'minimum not maximum.' He then told a story at Long Beach, I thing, about receiving this letter from some guy in a far off, poor country who's job it was to shoot the abundance of cats on the island. Sorry for any cat lovers, I myself started out with one but have four. This guy said he meditates for three hours a day, and how beautiful his life is, etc etc etc. Maharaji's comment on it was the meditation made his life enjoyable inspite of such a horrible job. So you see how the man can influence a premie into thinking the more meditation, the better the life.

I became very dependent on the practice of not facing the day without sitting down, because, honestly, it felt like catastrophe would befall me. I was totally discombobulated and felt like I was too attatched to this world, not coming from 'the right place'. Then I got to the point of grabbing an hour whenever I could. Now, I feel so much better not practicing at all. Before exiting, it would have been a fate worse than death. I felt I couldn't handle daily living without that hour, without that 'connection', and that I was not bonded with Maharaji. Thirty years of living everyday like this.

Darshan is completely foreign to westerners. In India, they think everyone has 'darshan' but holy/special people have special darshan. For us, it was that the 'lotus feet' held all the power and love. To be in his physcial presence, was to be showered with that power, hence that pwk song brought back at Long Beach 'In the hour of love, in the shower of love, the power of love'. Marilyn said years ago, that she lives with Maharaji everyday, and that his darshan was just way above everything else. We've been fed a diet of darshan lust since day one.

As for your husband, with a new grandchild on the way, he may get really cranky and actually refuse to have anything to do with the child unless he's practiced. I'd just steer clear. Honestly, it's like being an addict.

Oh, you'll love being a grandparent so much! My little grandaughter's first birthday is this Saturday. We took her yesterday to get her first picture taken at a studio. She's a funny little creature, very intense and objects at everything in life that isn't her idea, unless it involves humor. Then out comes a sultry laugh!

This new baby and her parents are going to love having you for a grandma. Never underestimate how soothing it is to parents to have you available for the small as well as the big things. I highly recommend the Kaiser baby temperment site, I'll try for a link, I'm always loosing that thing. It is a life saver. It gives a test, then explains the best way to work with the baby's temperment. It can make all the difference in the world to understanding what works for a baby's particular temperment.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:36:14 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sampuranand
Message:
I just checked my mail box and found this sadd message. We've recently received the following announcement:

We are very sad to hear that SAMPURAN ANAND passed away.
We will miss him dearly.

At times like this I just feel you have to remember the very best of a person, and he was a helluva guy. I have no idea whether he was genuine or not...but he seemed to be a total devoteee. he was 'M' s front man in India and he had a way of getting everybody laughing, that was very infectious.
Known as Mahatmaji in the ashram,
God rest his soul.

:We've recently received the following announcement:

We are very sad to hear that SAMPURAN ANAND passed away.
We will miss him dearly.

We are very sad to hear that SAMPURAN ANAND passed away.
We will miss him dearly.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 03:38:38 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I am sad
Message:
Sampoo had a great and mishchievious sense of humour. When I first met him in India I was really scared of him...he seemed fierce and imposing, but maharaji and he were very close and whenever I saw them together it was very sweet. I remember Mahatmaji begging maharahji for something, imploring him.... whatever it was, I thought M had threatened him withsome fate worse than death..but their faces were only inches apart and they were both laughing.

I remember M asking Sampurananand to 'do his angry face' on a number of occaisions. He had an infectious giggle and clearly loved maharaji very much. As he spoke of M it was always with a great love, very personal affection and devotedly. 'his joy is my joy... when he smiles, I smile'

Sweet.

God bless.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:29:56 (EST)
From: Thank you, Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Sampuranand
Message:
Thanks so much Loaf, for being the only person here to respond to Sampu's death in a decent, human manner, uncorrupted by transparent agenda and ugliness. He was a lovely, fun, kind, big-hearted man and deserves to be remembered as he actually was.

The rest of you resemble nothing so much as a pack of heartless, unfed vultures, who have lost all touch with their central humanity. If you could see how far removed from your better natures you've become, you'd be appalled.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:10:28 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Thank you, Loaf
Subject: Yeah well, you're full of shit!
Message:
Name me one thing this guy did in his whole life that is note worthy.

Tell me why he should be excused from his role in perpetuating the lie Maharaji preaches because of his death.

And what kind of person was he really? I get the glaring evidence that he enabled and helped harbour a raper of children, specifically Jagedo, who did little girls. He was directly involved in Maharaji's agenda in India which is known to be where Jagedo retired or more correctly fled; was sent. This equals knowing of and choosing to ignore this most horrific crime. Oh yeah he was so full of love. Was so much fun. Loved Maharaji his whole life. What a great guy!

The only thing I can fetch from my humanity is the very sad fact this guy wasted his life following Maharaji and died deluded.

And you, anonymous poster, so heartful and human with such a good nature, a real song bird, subscribe to and embrace real evil. I can't begin to describe to you how out of touch with reality you are. But, maybe some day you'll wake up and realize what you have become.

You make me sick!

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:32:34 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Yeah well, you're full of shit!
Message:
I'm with you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:55:33 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Re: But not with the S....part.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:26:09 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Thank you, Loaf
Subject: Re: Sampuranand
Message:
Now now, be nice. I think these people are appalled and are expressing their outrage at having been duped and used by the organization that your friend was a part of. It's good to here that our agenda is transparent as we want it to be quite clear. Sometimes loss and grief, of all sorts, makes people angry for a while. That sounds like it might go for you, too.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:23:11 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: I feel no remorse, I'm a real vulture
Message:
A real vulture can not let of something that stinks of disease. Well, maybe you guys are right.
I'm never going to let this go. And I certainly do not feel even a flickering of loss or grief about this PAM. One less cult member as far as I'm concerned. Good riddance.
My outrage arises not just from what was done to me, which pales by comparion to what some people here suffered, but is fueled by the fact that, guess what, Maharaji is still at it! And even worse, M is going to very likely never have to be accountable!
No, you have this wrong, dear housemom. I appreciate your gesture but do not try and sugar coat it.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 19:48:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Thank you, Loaf
Subject: You are the insensitive one
Message:
Look, I never met Sampuranand, and I think I only saw him once in a video. So, although I'm sorry people will miss him, I had no comment, and that is appropriate. You have no right to say that 'the rest of us' are 'heartless' and 'vultures.' That's unfair, untrue, and makes you sound stupid.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:06:07 (EST)
From: So you agree then
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: that some here are heartless vultures
Message:
Joe, Joe Joe. Don't you just hate people who always play that victim card? Like a broken record, on an on it drones, the same old whine, like fingernails on a black board. Now that's heartless!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:32:41 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: So you agree then
Subject: Has anyone told you recently ...........
Message:
How fucked up you are?

How offensive?

Go mourn on Life's Great. Pour your heart out to Maharaji. Write him a letter, send an email. Express yourself.

How you can think, oh I forgot, you're a premie, that's against the rules, the heart, your feeling is what's real, but why exactly are you expressing your sentiments here? And what gives you the right to come in here, fling insults, without:
Acknowledging yourself (you'll like that word, it has knowledge in it)

You're just another premie troll without giving us the courtesy of your validity.

A joke. Get lost.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:21:56 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: In other words.....
Message:
Just another cult head!
Shit, I'm sad that he died without ever knowing the truth. He died duped!
And probably never worked a day in his life, never did any real good.
Sad yes, very.

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 19:00:45 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Is that the same guy...
Message:
...that allegations were made about in late March or early April of last year on the then forum,
that he was maybe a boss in a prostitution racket from Nepal,taking girls from there to Bombay brothels via the ashram in Delhi? The epo site being down I can't find the relevant conversations to repost.

Just curious : I never knew the man myself,nor had ever heard of him.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 11:37:15 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Why be sad?
Message:
Everybody dies, as the goomraji would say. He was one of m's closest associates, confidants, and friends. I never knew him, but one less powerful leader in the cult is good news to me.

Am I being hard hearted? Yes, indeed I am, about someone who probably helped m make decisions about how to exploit us, me, and all premies.

Am I sorry? Not one bit. Good riddance to bad rubbish. So he died.
BFD.

Go ahead, flame me.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:58:34 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I'll flame you for sure next time..
Message:
..you respond to the wrong post.

I don't give a rat's arse about the man. I tried for several weeks after Jean-Michel's allegations that he was involved in girl trafficking, to interest various individuals & organisations in the subcontinent, but got nowhere. Jethro says below that the allegations were unsubstantiated, which of course is true. That's what allegations are.

Anyone care to shed further light on this subject?

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:17:14 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Flame me too, while you're at it!
Message:
I didn't have to courage to say this until Cynthia posted. But what the hell, Cynthia your post paralled what I thought when I initially read this thread.

This PAM was some guy in India you say? So, why hasn't he helped Abi and Susan and all the other children of Maharaji's cult who were molested by that freak Jagedo? Surely he heard of Jagedo and what he did!
He had influence on Maharaji? They were friends? So, why didn't this guy encourage Maharaji to do the right thing?
He was instrumental in maintaining Maharaji's cult in India? So fucking what! The whole country is one big cult. India is inhabited by prejudiced, cow loving, incense burning, Guru seeking, Ganges bathing, beard wearing, caste system abiding people.

No, Cynthia, you are NOT being hard hearted. You are being realistic.
My hats off to you.

Love, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:10:02 (EST)
From: You both display
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: the worst of human insensitivity...
Message:
...which has been typical of ex-premies through the years. I pity your own heart, to be controlled by such cold and callous disregard!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:40:35 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: You both display
Subject: I'm glad I'm human instead of a premie!
Message:
And what do you know about ex-premies?

Go on, you can do it, hold on to the illusion but you may have to press your eyeballs extra hard to maintain the type of humanity you subscribe to

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:28:05 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: You both display
Subject: like miragey's 'cold and callous disregard'
Message:
for the harm he and his sycophant honchos did to Abi - and countless other trusting innocent human beings!

listen, cult troll, you hard-core lobotomised premies display a cold and callous disregard for the facts, as well as for the underlying revolting truth about the maha's unspiritual rip-off McKnowledge Enron-DLM-EVI scam!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 00:53:08 (EST)
From: Sure, whatever you say...
Email: None
To: such
Subject: but consider this
Message:
Even if by some stretch of the imagination what you say is true, to become just as cold and callous yourself is a self indictment for a similar brand of inhumanity. Think about it.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:50:09 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sure, whatever you say...
Subject: no, it's 'sharing and caring!'
Message:
you be bongo, dude! hahahahahahaha! Look, we are deconstructing maha cult bull elephant ladus, for the sake of other affected human beings.

Hey Troll, take off the cult blinders and reverse your lobotomy (so you're remotely rational [and frankly, I can't vouch for your intelligence; for that's a premie troll's dilemma, after all]), and then maybe we'll talk someday.
But First, you need to stick to One recognizable identity here (other than TROLL), like the other responsible folks. You are in OUR HOUSE - and Don't Forget it. (This isn't some passive maha Big Brother brain-washing video show.) Next time, take your shoes off before entering the Ex-premie satsang hall, too.

'cold and callous' - hohoho Hey - Look in your own ignorant judgmental mirror, stranger. [I am a healer, dude; administering vaccinations. An inoculation hurts, yes; but truth is a powerful medicine.] till then... sayanora.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:45:05 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: such
Subject: speak of display
Message:
In Plato's Republic there's this great analogy about ethical and moral corruption. Socrates asks these people who aspire to be among the spiritual elite this question: If you could become invisible and commit a crime, therefore not getting caught, would it still be a crime? And secondly, what is their spiritual state, he asks, if their beliefs justify immoral and illegal activity? There was much debate, and of course it was determined that a crime is determined immoral by the action, NOT by getting away with it or getting caught. If someone feels compelled to commit a crime, such a internet hacking or blackmail, adultery, theft, lying, cruelty, etc, and they get away with it, what are they called? Immoral and unethical in the least, criminal in the eyes of the law. Certainly not the behavior of anyone I want to be around, much less have as my spiritual guide and companions.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 16:59:57 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: hear hear, Hemlockanand ji!
Message:
blessings
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:07:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I wish premies would read Plato's Republic
Message:
They accuse ex-premies of being Judeo-christian moralists. Ethics and morality go back much futher than that. In fact they should read the oldest extant story, the Epic of Gilgamesh.
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:04:30 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I wish they'd read any f***ing thing! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:49:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: I nearly added that to my post. :C) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:52:46 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: You both display
Subject: TO: You both display...
Message:
What's your name and what's it to you?

As Marianne said, FUCK OFF, and tell your premie friends to stop hacking the EPO site.

Furthermore, Sampuranand was a close associate of maharaji, and most likely harbored a pedophile. A rapist of a 7 year old child!!

Talk about cold and callous disregard.

Take your gripe to Maharaji, that's where it belongs.

Cynthia J. Gracie
Vermont, USA

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 15:27:22 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: You both display
Subject: Who's insensitive??
Message:
Tell us your name so we know the identity of your sanctimonious self. These people are angry about harm that was done to others. They've both shown more sensitivity to others in posts on this forum than Rotwat ever showed to any of us.

Want to hear the story of how I was unable to visit my mother at Christmas after my father committed suicide because the community coordinator, following Rotwat's agya, refused to let anyone go home for the holidays post Millennium?

I rarely tell premies to fuck off here, but here it is: FUCK OFF. And tell your friends to quit hacking the site.

Marianne Bachers

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 01:20:03 (EST)
From: You, Cynthia and Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: to name three.......
Message:
And Marianne, try and keep it straight. Whatever confusion that community coordinator was operating under at the time, it was not Maharaji who declined to let you go. If somehow that's how you've got the dots connected, you demonstrate a level of fanciful thinking not much different than the justification for the WTC bombing, as articulated by Osama Bin Laden.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:19:50 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: You, Cynthia and Tonette
Subject: AhHaaaahahah! Thinking, did you say thinking??
Message:
Thanks for the laugh! Did you say thinking? Connecting the dots?

Okay, here's a lesson for you.
Math- 2 + 2= 4
Geography- The world is round
Biology- The heart is a muscle that pumps blood
History- Jim Jones lead his followers to mass suicide
English- Knowledge is the sum of what you know, not the sum of what is.
Ethics- Identifies acts that are honorable
Morals- Identifies right from wrong

So allow me to get this straight with your thinking, your ability to connect the dots.

Math- Donations to Elan Vital= tax deduction?
Geography- India is a country where Maharaji was born and the great soul Sapuranand lived, may he RIP
Biology- My soul and my link to Maharaji can be known by manipulating my body. The heart is a feeling.
History- Maharaji is a the master of this time
English- Knowledge is an experience given/revealed by the Master
Ethics- Maharaji and his acts are commendable. The acts of his messengers are noteable
Morals- You need to study this one my friend, you haven't shown me any.

But I will give you credit for expertise in confusion and your fanciful thinking, ie, imagination.
And the Psychology associated with using Osama Bin Laden, Maharaji and his PAM in the same thinking process is quite revealing.

You need help.
Good luck, gotta give up the cult if you want to get anywhere.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 18:39:57 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Very good response Tonette [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:47:08 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: You, Cynthia and Tonette
Subject: Of course, Maharaji is never to blame...
Message:
Maharaji said the the ashrams were HIS. He literally said that. I just typed it from a fucking 1976 Coordinator's Conference tape, asshole.

So he could ''work at us, operate at us, cuz Guru Maharaj Ji is a surgeon.''

Okay? Got it straight? Therefore, while in the ashram, whoever was sincerely devoted to maharaji way back then considered all direction, whether given by the housemother, father or community coordinator, as agya. And that's direct agya.

Look, he died. As maharaji always says: everybody has to die. This is an ex-premie forum. So don't go telling me I'm callous because I won't miss a stupid mahatma in a dangerous cult lead by a megalomaniac called maharaji. Okay? Got that straight now?

I don't know anything about samp. other than he was the head of DUO India and had to have known something about the heinous crimes that were commited by another Indian Mahatma--JAGDEO against children. This includes the genital rape, a sexual assault on a SEVEN YEAR OLD LITTLE GIRL!!!! Seven years old. Do you know what that does to a human child? I guess not. Sampuranand had to know about this. Prove otherwise or get lost.

What the hell are you so outraged about? Don't read here. You're not welcome.

And talk about callous. What you said to Marianne is beyond callous. As a practicing premie she was told she could not attend her father's funeral. I've heard dozens of stories like that.

It is MAHARAJI who is to blame for all this shit. He fed it to us and he gave orders to the ashrams. It's Maharaji who was and is confused. He always has a scapegoat for all of his cruelty, total lack of human empathy, and really bad, bad decisions he has made over these 30 years.

To say the least.

Now, bye, bye, troll...

Cynthia Gracie
Vermont, USA

AND who are you?

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:02:17 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Right on Marianne !! (and Cynth and Tonette) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:30:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Did Sampuranand know about Jagdeo???
Message:
Hi Tonette,

My initial questions about sampuranand are similar to yours.

If he was maharaji's right hand man in India, then was Samp. in collusion with maharaji, et al, in the huge cover up about Jagdeo and his sexual assault on premies' children, especially Abi and Susan, who have come forth here to tell their stories.

I don't know if you saw the Elan Vital ''Press Release'' about DUO (Divine United Organization) filing suit against Jagdeo--it was sickening and a fraudulent press release which essentially blamed the victims.

If Sampuranand was the head of DUO, India, he must have known about the whereabouts of Jagdeo at some point in time, perhaps at a time that Abi was asking EV about it.

I don't have any sympathy for this creep. He was nothing but another star on the stage who most likely engaged in covering maharaji's tail in the horrendous child sexual abuse.

Now the guy's dead, so we'll probably never know what happened to Jagdeo, nor Samp.'s part in the cover up. For that, I feel sorry for his death. I never knew the cultist.

I'm cranky today, please excuse my demeanor, I have no patience nor good will towards pedophile protectors, and their lies and cover ups.

Cynthia, working on a better mood. :_

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 12:18:48 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: This post made me cranky, so you have company
Message:
Well Cynthia, I wish I had an inside line to this question, did Sapuranand know about Jagedo, but I do not! Thank God. If I did have an answer that would only mean that I was so emeshed and current on the cult and involved that perhaps I too would have some issues to resolve.
However, it is very rare when you add information and arrive to a plausible explanation that you are wrong. The way I see it is:

Sapuranand was best buddies with Maharaji-reported above
Sapuranand was cult inflicted his whole life (gives him an excuse in his thinking and morals somewhat)
Sapuranand was an upper eschalion in how Maharji's mission was run in India.
Until recently, no more than 2 years ago, Jagedo was living in an ashram of Maharaji's in India
Sapuranad, as head honcho, had to be aware of the inhabitants of ashrams in India. As best buddy, practically an uncle to Maharaji, was surely included on Jagedo's history. Besides, Jagedo didn't produce income as an initiator, he has always been on the dole. At the very least Sapuranand had to budget his maintenance, so at least he knew Jagedo was there in India.
Abi and Susan's story came out at least 3 years ago on EPO. I don't know the exact year. It may of been earlier.
Abi's and Susan's story was originally reported more than 10 years ago to Maharaji by Randy Proudy and Judy Osborne. This date I don't know either, I think it was much earlier but I am erring on the side of caution.
I could think of more correlations but isn't that enough? If it looks fishy and smells fishy then it probably is fishy.
We may never know but then again I don't hold out hope that the real story behind this PAM will someday come out.
As far as the apologists concerning his death, well how more twisted can you be? It is so interesting to me that the troll above posted with referance to Osama Bin Laden. Talk about a Freudian slip.

Take care Cynthia,
Perspectives and moods are ever changing. If you think yourself cranky then maybe you are but I don't see it.
Am I a heartless, inhuman vulture? That's a joke.
Alot of the time I think my posts have alot of anger in them. I am not that way in how I live my life or how I think about or perceive the world. In telling the truth about Maharaji though, one does encounter anger, sadness and remorse. I don't know anyway to avoid it. But, there's an equal or maybe more generous share of laughing, brotherhood and real fun here.

Love,
Tonette

ps do you think my posts are mostly angry? I need an objective opinion

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:00:06 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: This post made me cranky, so you have company
Message:
Hi Tonette,

Oh what a can of worms we opened. They're even talking about it on LG.

No, I don't think most of your posts are angry. Most of mine haven't been (lately anyway).

I understand that Loaf feels sad. Fine. You and I just don't feel that way. I feel no sympathy for ''maharaji's loss.'' I guess that's what got me fired up.

Especially the part about Jagdeo and the close connection to both Sampuranand and Jagdeo.

I can't let that one go by--ever.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:20:03 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That's funny!
Message:
Let me stop laughing so I can type. You mean to tell me that there is so little to talk about on Life's Great concerning Maharaji's wonderful world of Knowledge that they come here for material? That is too much!

Hey, do you think that since Maharaji loved this PAM so much well, do you think he was capable of crying? Did Maharaji shed a tear? Seeing as how Maharaji stated he would shirk his own children if they became obstacles in his mission I highly doubt it.

Anyway, you don't have to answer but thanks for the tip about LG. I'll go check it out!

Want to go fishing some time? We have lots of bait.

Love,
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:58:20 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: T&C
Message:
Thanks for both of your support. I can't believe how low these people will stoop, but they seem to be getting more desparate. Tonette, your posts are definately not mostly angry. You're kind and supportive. When I read you were a nurse, I thought, 'Oh, that's what makes her so nice!' You are always helping others here. Your posts about families and kids and how Rotwat and the cult have harmed them are particularly insightful.

Hugs to you both, your fellow 'vulture', Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:24:19 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks Marianne & Cynthia nt
Message:
****
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 05:19:22 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Is that the same guy...
Message:
Yes it's the same person.
As far as I know there was nothing to substanstiate the allegations.
If you've seen some of the videos taken around 74/75 you will see m on stage being fanned by a man carrying an enourmous fan, that was Sampranand. As far as I remember, before coming a devotee of hansji. Sampuranad was a guru to one of the Indian kings. He was an independantly wealthy man. I met him a few times when I went to India.

Personally I didn't like the way he treated the Indian locals and don't believe that he was all he appeared to be.

Paul Tuffield, if you are reading this, please repeat on this forum what you told me about Sampuranad's behaviour when we met at Sant Yoga ashram in New Delhi.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:23:15 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Is that the same guy...
Message:
I've said before on the forum that I saw sampuranand hitting and shouting at Indian premies in the darshan line in India, of course when a 'Westerner' came thru, all was smiles.
No doubt the Ron Geaves' of this world will tell you that this behaviour is 'cultural' in India.

What paul told me was something similar to what I saw(nothing like what jagdeo did,btw), but not in a darshan line.

Sometime in 1973, a 'freaked-out' premie went on tv and revealed the techniques. This fop was Paul's wife at the time. Anyway BBJ(satpal), who was the living incarnation of Jesus (eeer and Brahma I think) went round to Paul's house and told him something like he(Paul) would suffer eternally for breaking satguru's secret.

I think this really scared the shit out of Paul, as it would most of us at that time and I think the fact that Paul did so much service for m was his trying compensate for the sin of having a wife who became a manmut(follower of 'mind').

Bye for now

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 21:56:35 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Is that the same guy...
Message:
Paul Tuffield, if you are reading this, please repeat on this forum what you told me about Sampuranad's behaviour when we met at Sant Yoga ashram in New Delhi.
Hi Jethro. Assuming Paul isn't, can you? Sounds like it might clarify a few things to readers of this thread.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 02:34:49 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Pullaver, abobe message meant 4 u NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 12:35:21 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Jethro
Subject: Hi Jethro - OT
Message:
Hi Jethro. How are things for you? It is looking as though I am headed across the pond again in March, possibly for a couple of months. Kelly and Nottingham Bunny are contemplating another Latvian do, this time with the noxious videos we've been discussing on the forum recently. I'd love to see you. Do you think you can convince ham to come along too?

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:14:22 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: Sampuranand
Message:
How sad indeed. Maharaji will miss him very much, as he used to rely on Sampurnanand greatly - both to rally India, and for general advice and friendship.

I heard he was taken ill at Heathrow airport last night, and died shortly after in hospital.

When I was in India in 1970, Sampurnanand and a few other mahatmas who smoked (tobacco only, I think) had to do so secretly, of course, being mahatmas, and I was given the service of standing guard at the bottom of the steps to the ashram roof (where they used to go) !

He was quite a character. Leaving aside his involvement with Maharaji, he had integrity and was fun to be with.

-- Mike

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:11:23 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: Sampuranand
Message:
I guess MJ is really saddened by this news. One of MJ's former organizers told us that MJ cancelled a Pacific Tour because of his concern for Sam's health. Maybe he'll make it to Tokyo this year.
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