Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 17, 2002 To: Jan 23, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


Susan -:- Jagdeo posts from life's great that -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:21:22 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- My response to Isabella from LG -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 22:35:09 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Jagdeo's victims. -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 05:56:22 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Questions for Maharaji/ Elan Vital -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:09:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: Questions for Maharaji/ Elan Vital -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:58:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Macgregor's info -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:13:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Kelly -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:13:04 (EST)
__ Abi -:- courage -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:20:28 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Hi Abi & Susan -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:41:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Susan -:- thank you for speaking up -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:01:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: thank you for speaking up -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 19:58:06 (EST)
__ Susan -:- please listen to your conscience -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:25:20 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Susans talking to those who know the facts -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:58:10 (EST)

ExP -:- Calling Anth ... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:37:05 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Calling Anth ExP ... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:20:39 (EST)
__ __ such -:- Now, that's spot-on, Anth! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:50:26 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Re: Lou's post to Sir Dave -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:28:29 (EST)

december2001 -:- horses?malibu? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 07:44:27 (EST)
__ Marshall -:- Re: horses?malibu? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:16:18 (EST)

JHB -:- My post to Cat on LG -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 07:10:24 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Thanks for the Insight's JHB -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:29:34 (EST)
__ michael donner -:- Re: My post to Cat on LG -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:39:17 (EST)
__ __ Kelly -:- Re: My post to Cat on LG Hear Hear! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:08:22 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- My post had nothing to do with Cat!! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:00:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Sorry JHB, I misunderstood -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 12:23:35 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- You got it, TJ!! [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:45:31 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: My post to Cat on LG -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:06:20 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Very well put, John -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:28:44 (EST)
__ __ magiclara -:- Pat C can you e mail me please nt -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:32:12 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Goodness Mags, glad you reminded me -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:35:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Have mailed you Pat but -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:56:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Pat it is not about that -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:38:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- here's my email. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:57:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Just sent one to you -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:14:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Read it - You've got mail [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:28:54 (EST)
__ Mirror -:- Re: My post to Cat on LG -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:05:34 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: My post to Cat on LG -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 16:19:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Marshall -:- Redeeming qualities in Rawat clan = 0% -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:02:20 (EST)

swami suchabanana -:- A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 03:07:08 (EST)
__ housemum -:- Re: A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:14:47 (EST)
__ __ such -:- that's the amazing thing -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:35:26 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- Concepts man, you gotta surrender -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 06:18:30 (EST)
__ __ such -:- gurus who broke 'concepts' -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:32:25 (EST)
__ suchabanana -:- Re: A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:04:26 (EST)
__ __ Inside Edition -:- One thing's for damn sure -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:30:08 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- Bolie Shri ex-premie.org Ki Jai! [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:43:14 (EST)

Loaf -:- No EPO..How do people find this place ? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 01:14:59 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- www.hotboards.com -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:06:33 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: No EPO..How do people find this place ? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:28:49 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- Would exiters search for Drek ? [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:27:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Of course! Everyone wants Drek -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 00:00:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Of course! Everyone wants Drek -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 23:28:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- A question, Roger -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:09:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: A question, Roger -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:38:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Would exiters search for Drek ? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- It's only been 8 days -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:07:50 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: No EPO..How do people find this place ? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:38:53 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Hi Vicki! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 06:19:01 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- Hi Vicki + Bai ji;re computers! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:49:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Thank You Much Such! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 19:35:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- the only cookies I like -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:27:37 (EST)

Deputy Dog -:- What is with the Dog? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 22:37:07 (EST)
__ AJW -:- DYB DYB DYB -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:09:40 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- I never knew that -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 18:19:36 (EST)
__ dhuuu -:- Deep as the master -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:45:11 (EST)
__ janaet -:- Re: What is with us -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 08:10:34 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- I prefer the doganands -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 00:17:09 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- I prefer the doganands - amen! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 04:26:35 (EST)

hamzen -:- Maharaji, a few suggestions yeah -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:22:31 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Maharaji, a few suggestions yeah -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:16:28 (EST)
__ PatC -:- ex-premie scene, not hip!!?? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 04:57:47 (EST)
__ PatD -:- jesus, everyone's at it..... -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 22:19:45 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Hahaha LOL [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:49:39 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- 'Shallow' is the new 'deep' -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:31:09 (EST)

Just passing through -:- Maharaji of Malibu's new day job -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 20:26:11 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- The design skills are about right for him -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:25:04 (EST)

ExP -:- Danielle - is she an ex or what? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:38:57 (EST)
__ such -:- there's a 'diffamation' of opinion here: -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:45:56 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- My opinion -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:05:41 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- thanks for the advisory, J-M [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:18:04 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- J-M, please email me..... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:09:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: J-M, please email me..... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:24:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, J-M [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:00:03 (EST)
__ __ ExP -:- Re: there's a 'diffamation' of opinion here: -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 04:27:01 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- we'll see... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:12:55 (EST)
__ Mad in America -:- Danielle's seriously screwed--best to ignore her [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:34:25 (EST)

Chuck S. -:- Maharaji's 'Academy'... -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:15:11 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Probably...same old same old -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:44:26 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Link to Maharaji -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 16:02:55 (EST)
__ __ such -:- yep, different name, same game [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:58:24 (EST)

Richard -:- It was 30 years ago today -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:00:05 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Happy un birthday Richard -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:20:59 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: It was 30 years ago today -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:20:57 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Resonate all you want, Kelly -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:34:14 (EST)
__ __ magiclara -:- Kelly -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:29:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: Kelly -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:44:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Kelly -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:09:12 (EST)
__ Joy -:- YOU thought you had to do it? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 03:01:43 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Yes, Joy I thought I had to. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:02:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Aha! Joy and Richard! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:17:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Aha! Joy and Richard! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:07:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Re: Aha! Joy and Richard! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:54:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: Aha! Joy and Richard! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:31:17 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Dearest Richard -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:33:09 (EST)
__ __ vicki -:- Re: Dearest Richard -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:35:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Oh Vicki....... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 19:29:00 (EST)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- Vicki -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:18:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Wow! Vicki -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:35:38 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks Vicki for your beautiful message. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:13:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Amazing post Richard [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:20:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Actually meant Vicki :) -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:22:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Serving humanity, indeed vicki -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 12:43:27 (EST)
__ __ __ housemum -:- lovely post, vicki (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 12:14:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Joy -:- What a beautiful post, Vicki -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:51:06 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Dearest Richard -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:49:04 (EST)
__ housemum -:- beautiful & so familiar (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:55:55 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Thanks mum and gerry -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:50:01 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Beautifully stated, Richard. -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:50:58 (EST)
__ PatC -:- not so-hung anymore? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:28:44 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: not so-hung anymore? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:54:52 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I never squeezed my balls, Richard... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:07:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: not so-hung anymore? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 23:38:55 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Pat, It's none of my business, but -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 16:29:38 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- No problem. Ten inches - and yours? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:17:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Is that flaccid or turgid? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:05:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Both - you know how horse-hung.... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:04:09 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Did he use his hammer? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:19:37 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Did he use his hammer?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:51:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Seriously Richard -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 20:37:43 (EST)

loaf -:- is maharaji happy ?? ?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 13:37:07 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Re: is maharaji happy ?? -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:09:39 (EST)
__ Sulla -:- Only If money -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:18:43 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- I am also grateful for my pillows! -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:35:47 (EST)
__ Mirror -:- Loaf, you are so beautiful -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 09:37:27 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Wow ! (nt) -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:26:22 (EST)
__ __ P.S. -:- Where's the Amar post? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:39:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- it was the one about flying [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:44:18 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Re: is maharaji happy ?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 20:40:55 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Loaf, found that very generous & moving [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:53:13 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Re: is maharaji happy ?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:51:31 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Re: is maharaji happy ?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 16:39:37 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: is maharaji happy ?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:14:03 (EST)
__ Appreciator of Loaf's Excellence -:- Re: is maharaji happy ?? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:57:08 (EST)
__ suchabananaabananaabananaabananaabanana -:- yeah, m. should be doing da bowing/foot-kissing! -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:10:42 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- You tell him. Swami -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:50:39 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- must be my doorman; you got i.d.? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:22:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vick -:- Re: must be my doorman; you got i.d.? -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 09:11:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: must be my doorman; you got i.d.? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:32:59 (EST)
__ PatC -:- You did it again, Loafie! -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:41:44 (EST)


Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:21:22 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jagdeo posts from life's great that
Message:
Jagdeo posts from Life's Great that should not be lost.....sorry if this is old news. I had not hurt about this particular incident.

Isablella,

Do you Ricardo Delgado, dancer, as in Krishna Lila dancers?

Well, Ricky and I went to visit some premies in his neighbourhood (big community in Miami) back in early eighties. And this woman was rapping about the hoops they (her and her husband) were going through to complain about Jagdeo molesting (fondling incident to my knowledge) of a five year old girl. Very pretty little girl that I saw often in the community.

Ricky looked over at me to test my reaction. Than he nodded at me suggesting the complaint was true. Funny thing, although I believed it and was disgusted and voiced my opinion as such, it just didn't sink in what was going on at the time. It was like my body-double did the listening but my premie mind denied it. It's like I had to fragment my thoughts in order to handle the input. Nevertheless, I don't think I thought for a moment that Maha wouldn't do something about it. And never would I think that Maha shouldn't have to do something about it. As an aside, I often thought about that story in the years when I drifted away from premies. It's like it haunted me. I often wondered what Maha had done about it.

So this is a case of people either knowing or not knowing and not a case of who should of known. See what I mean? Many premies lived in our community and never heard about the Jagdeo incident. It wasn't broadcasted, obviously because of the shameful and traumatic nature of the matter. But also, IMHO, because it was out of sorts with our sub-culture utopian lives as premies. I just happened upon the incident because I was with my buddy.

And Michael Dettmers was definitely Maha's right hand man in all important and wordly ways. Not exclusively, of course. I was close to Michael's brother and would get glimpses of the picture. Most of my friends and acquaintances were PAMs, DECA employees, premies who lived in the same neighbourhood (as did I, I lived literally around the block, less than 2 minute walk). We all knew who was who and possibly even coveted their postions. Michael Dettmers, was one premie who always shrouded in secrecy. I got my impressions and a hand full of facts about him fleshed out via association with his brother adn other close friends who occasional interacted w/Michael.
Otherwise, no one really spoke about him. But it was very understood that he was important to Maha and in the tightest of the inner circle.

Where I did see Michael in action myself, was a three-day Int'l Instructors Conference in S. California. Michael asked me to run tasks now and again. Than there was a service I had to do at Michael's suite. I worked on a portfolio that was going to the bank and Michael was handling all kinds of stuff on the phone. We chatted while I worked, and I found him very, very pleasant.

So, was Michael capable of being in situations and privy to these type of situations? YES. Do I know for a fact? NO. However, I choose to believe him. Based on his reputation, my personal experience, and his current record and soft matter-of-fact demeanor, I choose to believe him.

Don't you think I apply the same criteria for evaluating Maha's allegations?

Take care,

deborah

You wrote: Isablella, Do you Ricardo Delgado, dancer, as in Krishna Lila dancers? Yes - I know him very well - for a very long time. Well, Ricky and I went to visit some premies in his neighbourhood (big community in Miami) back in early eighties. And this woman was rapping about the hoops they (her and her husband) were going through to complain about Jagdeo molesting (fondling incident to my knowledge) of a five year old girl. Very pretty little girl that I saw often in the community. Ricky looked over at me to test my reaction. Than he nodded at me suggesting the complaint was true. Funny thing, although I believed it and was disgusted and voiced my opinion as such, it just didn't sink in what was going on at the time. It was like my body-double did the listening but my premie mind denied it. It's like I had to fragment my thoughts in order to handle the input. Nevertheless, I don't think I thought for a moment that Maha wouldn't do something about it. And never would I think that Maha shouldn't have to do something about it. As an aside, I often thought about that story in the years when I drifted away from premies. It's like it haunted me. I often wondered what Maha had done about it. Yes, I had a similar experience. But in a way it was worse. 1) It was even earlier than that - probably Denver in 1977. 2) The person who told me was no longer an active premie, but was definitely in a position to know. 3) Like you, I think I believed it, but it just sort of went by. I think our value systems were really odd in those days. In some ways, it was on the same level as 'Oh - so and so got married' or 'oh - so and so eats meat'. It just didn't sink in and it sort of fell away from my memory banks. I didn't really think about it for years, mostly because I never saw the guy (Jagdeo) again. 4) Now - here's the really odd part. When all this stuff started coming up in 1999 or so, I got a call from someone asking if I thought there was any truth to the thing. I remembered and said 'yes, I definitely remember hearing the rumor'. I seemed to be one of the few people that remembered anything about it. This person had been checking all around premie-land. I called the person who I thought had originally told me, and she professed not to know what I was talking about. Now, this person is NOT a premie, and hasn't been for over 25 years. About 6 months ago, I called and asked again. Gradually she remembered. She had definitely heard about it, but had somehow completely forgotten. Around this time, people started posting of F5 that THEY remembered hearing the rumor too. And these were ex's, who had been around and read the allegations. As I recall, Janet Schwartz and Katie Darling both said they remembered the rumor, for two examples. So this is a case of people either knowing or not knowing and not a case of who should of known. See what I mean? Many premies lived in our community and never heard about the Jagdeo incident. It wasn't broadcasted, obviously because of the shameful and traumatic nature of the matter. But also, IMHO, because it was out of sorts with our sub-culture utopian lives as premies. I just happened upon the incident because I was with my buddy. So you're saying that many people who knew just sort of 'tripped over it', like you and I did? It's entirely possible. But that doesn't say 'cover-up' to me. It just says 'f'ing weird'. Incredibly sad...but weird. So, was Michael capable of being in situations and privy to these type of situations? YES. Do I know for a fact? NO. However, I choose to believe him. Based on his reputation, my personal experience, and his current record and soft matter-of-fact demeanor, I choose to believe him. Our mutual acquaintances have told me Michael is an honorable man. I have no basis to assume otherwise. Don't you think I apply the same criteria for evaluating Maha's allegations? I'm not sure if I quite get this part. Are you saying we cannot know whether M knew or not? I choose to believe that he must not have known - because he got rid of any other mahatmas who were abusive. It's only logical to me. If you're saying that you feel M is not credible, because there are many things you don't like about him - you know I'm not going to be able to agree with that. Like I said, I am left with thinking this is one of the more bizarre episodes of the past 30 years. Like Ferd above, I do not like the way EV has handled the situation. I'm not too sure that any organization does a good job of handling sexual/child abuse by 'authority figures'. The Catholic Church is sure no role model... And - that excuses NOTHING. It's just an observation. Take care, Is
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 22:35:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: My response to Isabella from LG
Message:
Hi Is,

I was thrilled when I saw this response over at F-VII

So, if you see Ricki and Lola, you can tell them I said 'hi' and let them know I'd like to touch base with them again.

I want to comment on this response.

So you're saying that many people who knew just sort of 'tripped over it', like you and I did? It's entirely possible. But that doesn't say 'cover-up' to me. It just says 'f'ing weird'. Incredibly
sad...but weird.

Yes, as far as the overall community and perhaps the major portion of PAM's with exception of the immediate inner circle handling the situation. If Michael Dettemers says he didn't know, I believe him. That attests for the fact only the very immediate people knew about it.
However, to think that Judy and/or Prouty would have made the executive decision PRETEND but not tell Maha is highly doubtful. Highly doubtful. I know that Maha has executive control over
many aspects (if not all) as I have seen and/or interacted with him in various scenarios. This factor alone would however leave me with a element of doubt if it weren't for the fact that it contradicts Susan's report that Judy said, 'M is glad that it's not a new incident.'

Thank you for an honest remark on Michael's character.

Our mutual acquaintances have told me Michael is an honorable man. I have no basis to assume otherwise.

Of course, anyone who knew him, knew that, especially in the area of devotion and personal care of Maha. He took care of Maha in ways that most of us couldn't even phathom at the time. Handling this type of situation would be someone else's area. MD was more business in
'real world'. ;)

In response to my statement:

Don't you think I apply the same criteria for evaluating Maha's allegations?

you responded,

I'm not sure if I quite get this part. Are you saying we cannot know whether M knew or not? I choose to believe that he must not have known - because he got rid of any other mahatmas who were abusive. It's only logical to me. If you're saying that you feel M is not credible, because there are many things you don't like about him - you know I'm not going to be able to agree with that.

No and Yes. NO, I am not saying that we cannot ever know if M knew or not. Susan says she got a deliberate comment. Isabella, premies did not just go around misquoting something like that. What if that would freaked Maha out? How could Judy second-guess Maha's reaction
and prevent him from finding out? They would have to know that Maha never wanted to hear about those kinds of crimes, something Judy would have only known from previous experience. Either way, it doesn't add up or look good. and Yes but not exactly for the reason you stated. The things I don't like about M are his lies, deceptions, meanness, greed, anger, etc.

In other words, why would I give him the benefit of the doubt based on his known character.

BTW, I didn't expect you to agree with my ill opinion of him.

Thanks for coming forward with your responses. It gets weird reading constant revision.

Cheers,

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 05:56:22 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Jagdeo's victims.
Message:
Hi Susan,

I hope all is well with you and your family, and you daughter is up and running again.

I think we are going to keep discovering more cases of Jagdeo's abuse coming to light, as time passes. And I think we are going to find more evidence that the cult and the Captain were well aware of what was going on for years.

So far we know of at least three victims in the USA, at least one, and possibly several more in the UK. We also know that Jagdeo was reported to at least three cult officials, Gurucharanand, Judy Osbourne and Randy Prouty. There's also a report of a special meeting in Miami, with Maria Isabella to discuss the case of abuse which seems to be mentioned above.

I've also heard from a long time national co-ordinator that Rawat's eventual solution was to limit Jagdeos touring (and presumably his abuse) to Indian communities in the Far East.

The cult have continual shifted their position, and only under extreme pressure, have begun to acknowledge what they have been trying to hide for years.

This whole matter isn't over yet, and it's rumbling like a time bomb underneath them. The way they dealt with Abi, trying to manipulate and pressure her, with, as far as I can see two aims- one to protect Captain Rawat, and the other to save money, was quite disgusting.

The cult have never shown any concern for any of Jagdeo's victims, and have only sought to protect and cover up for their master's cowardly, indecisive way of protecting his old paedophile pal.

They really can't face up to the fact that Jagdeo's child abuse was tolerated within the cult, because of his close relationship with Rawat.

The stink from this affair keeps getting stronger, and it goes all the way back to the lotus feet, which, unlike the lotus, seem to be sinking in the mud at the bottom of the swamp.

I think this, above all else, is going to be the end of the Captain and his dodgy little cult.

Anth, watching the cracks in the walls grow.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:09:27 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Questions for Maharaji/ Elan Vital
Message:
True, the cult did change it's position, but only after the publicity and outcry, among both premie and ex-premie became unbearable. Then they engaged in a number of damage-control actions, which were for the purpose of protecting Maharji's ass, and without the slightest concern about either past of future molestation victims of Jagdeo.

I would hope everyone who is disgusted with Maharaji's behavior in the Jagdeo matter will ask Elan Vital/DUO about the status of their so-called, belated, half-assed attempts to blame Jagdeo alone for what he did, pretending that Maharaji and his organization didn't try to cover for Jagdeo and that the whole organization didn't provide Jagdeo the position and the access to children that enabled him to sexually molest them.

For example, what is the status of that supposed 'lawsuit' filed against Jagdeo by DUO in India, which was announced with great ass-covering fanfare in a Press Release on the erstwhile Elan Vital website? Has Jagdeo been served? Has Jagdeo responded? Does Maharaji and/or Elan Vital/DUO know where Jagdeo is, which they persumably do having sued him? Why haven't they told the victims where he is? Why haven't they told the authorities in Australia, the UK and USA, where they know molestations occurred, where he is? Why do they continue to protect him?

Rawat's personal relationship with Jagdeo may have been a motivation for the cover-up of his crimes, but I think a bigger motivation was the hope that if they swept it under the carpet, and got Jagdeo out of the West, that it would go away. If Maharaji had done the moral and ethical thing -- turn Jagdeo over to the authorities, announce to the communities what had happened and asked victims to come forward for help -- it would have ensured a scandal, albeit short-lived because Maharaji would have done the right thing.

Rather, just like Maharaji walked away from that fatal car accident and let others take the blame, Maharaji tried to walk away from the Jagdeo situation and perhaps thought he had successfully done it. Since it appears the scandal is coming to light more all the time, I assume his next strategy will be to blame others, which he has done throughout his life. In the meantime, how many more victims have there been?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:58:20 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Questions for Maharaji/ Elan Vital
Message:
I'm sure that he has always blamed others about this, and continues to claim that he didn't know about it at the time. Even if we suspend disbelief for a moment and accept that he didn't, that the people who did know were too afraid to tell him, that's still no excuse. He should never have created such a situation, such a climate of fear,that would allow such serious issues to be swept under the carpet. Deepak told me that he thought it very unlikely that M knew because he was always so strict with the mahatmas. He is the master of self delusion though, and until he accepts his own culpability, his lackeys will continue to twist and spin and tie themselves in knots to cover for him.
Did John MacGregor ever post his info about Jagdeo? If so, could you direct me to it.
with love to Abi, Susan and all,
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:13:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Macgregor's info
Message:
John's source about the EV meeting is no longer clear about the EV meeting that may or may not have taken place in 1985. As John only wishes to submit verifiable information, this is currently on hold.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:13:04 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: thanks Kelly
Message:
You have been so brave and truly helpful getting information. I also really think whatever you did with Deepak may have at least been what finally got Jagdeo I hope shunned from the cult, if only we could just know kids are safe.

No, I never did read whatever John was going to post about Jagdeo.

I am a person that tries very hard to keep my confidences entrusted to me. And Abi and I have both talked to victims, and know of reportings and victims, but been told to keep these in confidence. When you think about the nature of this, it would be a horrible injustice to any victim to have his or her story told publicly without permission. So you just can't.

But I do know there are people who could clear up so much, if they would stand up and be counted, and let the chips fall where they may.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:20:28 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: courage
Message:
I hope and pray that the people who know about this will one day discover the courage within them to come forward and speak out. Children are precious.

Abi

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:41:58 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Abi
Subject: Hi Abi & Susan
Message:
I am so thrilled to see this post here. I posted this but I've been away for four days. I'll go over to LG and see the post there.

Good news and spot on to Isabella for saying what she did.

I'd love to speak to both of you via email. See above

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:01:55 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: thank you for speaking up
Message:
and Isabella. The case you refered to was not one I had heard about before, nor Isabella. I really think this happened to a whole lot of children.

I also think the analysis you and Isabella did about how it sort of went into 'things premies don't want to think aout' when they heard about it was good. One of the hardest things for me was that I did not do more than telling Randy and Judy, that I didn't scream and yell and make an embarrassing fuss until I knew justice had been done. But that would have been so unpremielike. Did we think of ourselves as even having rights? Did I think I had the right to tell Guru Maharaj Ji how to handle it? Of course not. We were to surrender. Accept. Trust. So in my way I turned it over to him and did that and tucked the incident into a place where I didn't have to think about it often.

Once, I have told this story before, after I had told Randy, I saw Jagdeo as a 'greeter' in the Darshan tunnel. It was scary and he was trying to get me to acknowldge him and I wouldn't. I freaked out crying after that Darshan. My mind also told me 'Maharaj Ji looks bored and has no idea who you are you are in a cult you idiot'.....

I broke into sobs. I hated myself for having those thoughts and so little faith. I wasn't thinking...'maybe your mind is right'...I was thinking I was evil and ungrateful, not a good enough meditator and a shitty premie. Full of self loathing.

I think it was at least a year after that incident that I finally left.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 19:58:06 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: thank you for speaking up
Message:
Dear Susan,

it makes me very angry to think of you going through that. Darshan...Wish I could go back in time and be there and give him a good kick.

You are so right about the way premies had no rights, no voice. Even our very emotions were controlled, censored. Part of me thought I was evil for feeling so bad about Jagdeo. Thought it was my Mind.

take care

Abi

Abi

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:25:20 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: please listen to your conscience
Message:
KNOW there is someone out there reading all this who should step up to the plate and stand up and support me and Abi and the others who don't wish to be raked over the coals.

Its about conscience.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:58:10 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@apollo.lv
To: Susan
Subject: Susans talking to those who know the facts
Message:
KNOW there is someone out there reading all this who should step up to the plate and stand up and support me and Abi and the others who don't wish to be raked over the coals.

Its about conscience.


---

On EPO, we have compelling evidence that Maharaji knew about Jagdeo and did nothing. People reading here have information that can confirm this without a shadow of doubt. Some supporters of Maharaji are now committing criminal acts to shut EPO down. Other supports of Maharaji need that confirmation to break away. Do not let new crimes hide older, more heinous crimes. It's time to talk.

John.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:37:05 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Calling Anth ...
Message:
Hello AJW

I see I still owe you a response to an earlier email of yours - sorry

When I was putting up various names I did think of including yours but did not. I do remember your long rambling discourses, full of teacher analogies, little titbits of the (im)perfect one and other general inanities. Actually I did find you inspiring, your obvious enthusiasm was infectious and definitly displayed large cultish behaviour - which I was into as well (big time).

I think that present PAM's (and premies that still openly sing the praises of the imperfect one) and who still have not made the move from cultish behaviour remain fair game - especially at this time when it is so obvious that the SatGuru's game is up, the easy availability of info and so forth.

Now if Valerio, Linda, Tim, Glen, Marolyn, Monica, etc (and a bunch of people on LIG, ELK) wish to openly declare that they were part of a cult but have now 'moved on' then they will no longer be 'fair game'. I don't believe 'Joe Blow' premie is fair game.

My tools? Oh just the simple ones - jest, irony, parody, taking the Mickey (p...).

Remember 'Spitting Image'?

Take care
ExP
[ Your post of a few days ago .. ]

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:20:39 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Calling Anth ExP ...
Message:
Hi ExP

Thanks for your belated response.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'fair game'. It almost has a vigilante ring to it. 'Fair game' for what? Everybody is a victim of this crazy trip. The most powerful way of challenging cultish behaviour seems to be the simple presentation of facts and information, which I support completely.

When I was a premie, both in the 'community' and 'at the residence', I never bought into the 'us and them' mentality, and I still feel the same. Sure, if somebody behaves like a jerk, say so, but if you need to yell at somebody, and get personal, I can think of a better target than those on your list.

However, to totally contradict myself, (I'm a Libran who doesn't believe in astrology) I've noticed that premies who are financially supported by the cult, in full-time positions, are its most enthusiastic supporters. There is a different mentality with these people, compared those you describe as 'Joe Blow' premie. (What about Josephine?)

Also, people in these situations (PAMs, full-time instructors, etc) seem extremely paranoid to be seen having any communication with anyone associated with EPO and the forum, where as the more humble premies don't seem so worried, and behave in a much more civilised manner.

Blither blather blither blather.

Anth- three blind mice and half a pig's head.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:50:26 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Now, that's spot-on, Anth!
Message:
'I've noticed that premies who are financially supported by the cult, in full-time positions, are its most enthusiastic supporters. There is a different mentality with these people, compared those you describe as 'Joe Blow' premie.'

-- after all, the paid honchos have the most to lose!!

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:28:29 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: ExP
Subject: Re: Lou's post to Sir Dave
Message:
All

Sheeesh - just after posting to AJW I went over to LIG and saw the absolutly immoral and evil post from Lou to Sir Dave (click above). This 'cultish behaviour' is getting to be well beyond a joke if it can allow Lou to post such utter evil and have no consideration for real people. Lou, I guess you have 'realized knowledge' and thus unable to experience 'shame' or grief?

Sir Dave: I am so sorry to hear about your news. I am sure that everyone's thoughts will be with you at this time.

Love
ExP
[ Lou's post ]

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 07:44:27 (EST)
From: december2001
Email: december2001@webtv.net
To: All
Subject: horses?malibu?
Message:
glad to see there is such a place as this. a place where mahara ji can pick up on some points? does anyone know if maharaji boards horses there in so. cal.? current news of mahara ji does not seem to be to dificult researching. just a short post as must get ready for some errands around. necessary to continue these computer experiments? hope these questions don't seem unimportant? enjoy?
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:16:18 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: december2001
Subject: Re: horses?malibu?
Message:
I'm curious, are you a follower of Maharaji?
The tone of your letter sort of suggests you are.
You are definitely passive-agressive, the hallmark of most of Maharaji's followers.
It's also odd that all your sentences end with question marks.
Maybe you are passive agressively suggesting that the material on the ex sites are questionable?
As far as horses go, what do you think?
Rawats a multi-multi millionaire living on several acres of prime land in the most expensive area in the world.
Of coursr he has horses, you idiot.

ps. Learn how to write properly, it makes communication more effective.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 07:10:24 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My post to Cat on LG
Message:
I thought this post was worth bring over here, even if I say so myself. I was responding to him dismissing my and Gerry's fear of premies' attacks escalating.

Cat,

I'm sure you wouldn't engage in anything illegal to disrupt the work of ex-premies. For a start, you could be tracked down by the police too easily. No, I think you're basically honest, although I do suspect you might have heard something about the attacks through your guru supporting contacts.

No, Cat, I am concerned about those people who have already crossed the line into serious criminal activity. They have already demonstrated their callous nature by the indiscriminate nature of the attacks.

Of those 100+ websites on the server hosting EPO were no doubt many businesses, whose livelihood will have suffered, maybe some charities, whose income will have been reduced jeopardising their ability to help people, maybe some valuable information resources, and of course all those people who's lives were made a little more troubled by not being able to access their websites. Also, the hosting company's business will have been adversely affected with maybe some customers taking their business elsewhere.

No, the attackers did not care about the effects of their actions, as long as EPO was stopped. So when EPO comes back in a form that they can't bring down, do you think they will go back to their hobbies and call it a day? They've invested too much. They will have to try something else. We already know they don't care about hurting people financially, so why do you think they care about hurting people physically?

I've asked Maharaji to issue an instruction that no premies should break the law in the struggle against ex-premies. I've asked him to confirm with me when that instruction is given. He has the authority to stop this now. Let's hope he has the sense of responsibility to match the authority.

John.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:29:34 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks for the Insight's JHB
Message:
So what I gather from the info you provided is an attack on one entity hosted by the web server equally affects all of the other customers who are sharing the same server.

Say for instance XYZ server had 100 customers and EPO is one of them, an attack against EPO affects and literally shuts down the web servers ability to process information to any one of the 100 not just the intended target EPO, Right!

If so then this really opens up a whole new can of worms for the perpetrators. The EPO attackers raise the ire of the server and the 99 other customers they give impetus for damage recovery and restitution to.

This may be easier now than ever because of the 9/11 laws that have come into effect concerning terrorism which include the internet as well.

The EPO attackers may already be well on the way becoming the test case for some of these new laws

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:39:17 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: My post to Cat on LG
Message:
hi john and all, i continue to wish we would ignore cat and other trolls, we ban then on one hand and continue the conversation in this way ....lets get on with out work and quite giving this fellow and others like him the time of day. really!
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:08:22 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: My post to Cat on LG Hear Hear!
Message:
It's just a waste of time and energy.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:00:59 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: My post had nothing to do with Cat!!
Message:
At least not the points I wanted to share on this forum. I'm sorry I mentioned him in the subject......

Sheesh (as Katie would say)

John.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 12:23:35 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sorry JHB, I misunderstood
Message:
Right post, wrong place!
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:45:31 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: You got it, TJ!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:06:20 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: My post to Cat on LG
Message:
Mike,

Sorry, although the post was originally to Cat, I thought the points I made deserved making here. I should just have made them without refering to the conversation with Cat.

John.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:28:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Very well put, John
Message:
Sabotaging the host server of EPO could also have destroyed struggling businesses who relied on sales by credit card transactions. Anyway, I'm sure the investigation will take that into account.

It is not a smart thing to commit internet crime in the USA at present. The economy is very bad and law enforcement is very watchful of anything that smacks of cultish terrorism.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:32:12 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat C can you e mail me please nt
Message:
t
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:35:48 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Goodness Mags, glad you reminded me
Message:
I got you snail mail letter a few days ago and have been meaning to email you and say thanks for the pics. Will do so now.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:56:36 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Have mailed you Pat but
Message:
I have had to try to remember your address in my mind as I can't get into my e mail.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:38:01 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat it is not about that
Message:
could you give me your e mail address on here I don't think I can get into my e mail account.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:57:58 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: magiclara
Subject: here's my email.
Message:
Just sent one to you.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:14:02 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Just sent one to you
Message:
can you read it and get back to me please
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:28:54 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Read it - You've got mail [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:05:34 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: My post to Cat on LG
Message:
I've asked Maharaji to issue an instruction that no premies should break the law in the struggle against ex-premies. I've asked him to confirm with me when that instruction is given. He has the authority to stop this now. Let's hope he has the sense of responsibility to match the authority. John.

Oh John, you are such an idealist. Sense of responsibility?
Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 16:19:27 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: My post to Cat on LG
Message:
If nothing else, M's response or lack of it will tell us more about him - whether or not he has ANY redeeming human qualities in him at all.

Thank you John. Somebody has to teach M how a mature grown up behaves himself. If not us, then who? This should be interesting.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:02:20 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Redeeming qualities in Rawat clan = 0%
Message:
Wow,
You still hold out hope that the goo might have some redeeming qualities?
I'm impressed by your optimism, but the verdict is already back.

Redeeming qualities in Rawat & C0. = 0%
Concience = 0%
Greed in Rawat family = 100%
Irresponibility = 100%

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 03:07:08 (EST)
From: swami suchabanana
Email: lilswami@dharamsala_cafe.ind
To: All
Subject: A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER...
Message:
A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER NEITHER REQUESTS NOR ACCEPTS ANYTHING SELFISH OR WORLDLY IN RETURN FOR ONE'S TEACHINGS, OR FROM ONE'S DEVOTEES [STUDENTS]

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT LIVE IDLY OFF THE TOIL AND SWEAT OF ONE'S DEVOTEES [STUDENTS]

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT SIT ON A THRONE OR PLACE ONESELF ABOVE OTHER HUMAN BEINGS

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT PRACTICE NEPOTISM

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER ALWAYS SPEAKS THE TRUTH, AND NEVER LIES TO OTHERS

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT PRACTICE CHEAT AND DECEIT IN ONE'S PUBLIC OR PERSONAL LIFE

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER GIVES CREDIT TO THE SOURCE OF ALL LIFE - AND NOT TO ONESELF

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT CLAIM OWNERSHIP FOR TEACHING WHAT DOES NOT BELONG TO THE TEACHER

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY, APOLOGISES AND ASKS - but does NOT expect - FORGIVENESS FOR ONE'S TRANSGRESSIONS OR MISTAKES, AND MAKES EVERY POSSIBLE ATTEMPT TO CORRECT ONE'S MISTAKES AND RIGHT ANY HARM THAT HAS BEEN DONE

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER PRACTICES FORGIVENESS

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER PRACTICES IMPECCABLY WHAT ONE TEACHES

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER'S ORGANIZATION AND ITS ACCOUNTS ARE ABOVE-BOARD AND OPEN TO PUBLIC INSPECTION

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER SHUNS ALL EVIL AND BAD COMPANY OR ASSOCIATIONS

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT SEEK HONOURS OR FAME

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER RECOGNIZES THE FLEETINGNESS OF ALL MATERIAL EXISTENCE, AND NEITHER INDULGES IN NOR CLINGS TO MATERIAL ILLUSION

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER PRACTICES MODERATION IN ONE'S PERSONAL HABITS

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER IS CHASTE

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER NEVER ASKS OTHERS TO DO WHAT THE TEACHER IS UNWILLING TO DO OR AVERSE TO

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER PRACTICES COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING TOWARD ALL

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER IS HUMBLE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE UNIVERSAL LIFE ENERGY

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:14:47 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Re: A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER...
Message:
Such, I'm really glad you posted this as some people take their spirituality very seriously and their desire to grow spiritually brought them to K. It's amazing to me that the goo has managed to convince some people that he is above moral and ethical (and legal) expectations. It there's such a thing as karma, it would seem that 'spiritual' teachers who cause harm to people are planting the seeds for some mighty bad reaping ahead, even if they're happy with their power and money right now. And even if there's no karma, they just suck as human beings.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:35:26 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: that's the amazing thing
Message:
the mind-blower:

i.e. 'It there's such a thing as karma, it would seem that 'spiritual' teachers who cause harm to people are planting the seeds for some mighty bad reaping ahead, even if they're happy with their power and money right now.'

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 06:18:30 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Concepts man, you gotta surrender
Message:
The role of the guru is to take us beyond concepts such, whatever way is possible.
And he sure has taken us beyond those concepts, it would be hard to find even part of one of your list that he follows.
But you of all people lil swami, should know that the sea of the infinite is beyond those who are apeing the concepts of this world.

GM breaks all the concepts because he wants to get us there quicker than other gurus. That's why we were there, we didn't want it next week, or tomorrow even, but now.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:32:25 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: gurus who broke 'concepts'
Message:
i.e. Hitler, Pol Pot, Khomeini, Bin Laden, Jim Jones...

'And he sure has taken us beyond those concepts, it would be hard to find even part of one of your list that he follows.' -- now, dat's fer sure!!

'The role of the guru is to take us beyond concepts such, whatever way is possible.' = just another concept, too, after all! hehehe

[btw, I've already got an inner guru that takes me beyond concepts - whenever I practice my own silent meditations, or do the simple techniques I gleaned from some Tibetan books.]

just, Never 'surrender' to an external rugu or another human being -- except as necessary to your boss at work perhaps, or if you're married, of course [hahaha]!

Prem-Phlegm:

Prempal
alleged concept-breaker
alter-ego
Massa concept-maker.

Also, to me, anyway, personal 'Integrity' is not simply a concept -- but a mode of conducting one's life, in harmony with truth.

['course that's just basic Ethics 101 -- which apparently doesn't seem important anymore -- in the greedy rat-race of the New World Order.]

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:04:26 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Re: A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER...
Message:
also:

A TRUE SPIRITUAL TEACHER DOES NOT SEEK TO CONTROL OR MANIPULATE OTHERS, OR USE HUMAN BEINGS AS OBJECTS FOR ONE'S PURPOSES OR ENDS

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:30:08 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: One thing's for damn sure
Message:
Rawat is no spiritual teacher!

It's quite obvious that more people are realizing that every day, on-line. That's what these attacks are all about.

Bolie Shri INTERNET Ki Jai!

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:43:14 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Bolie Shri ex-premie.org Ki Jai! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 01:14:59 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: No EPO..How do people find this place ?
Message:
Is this forum itself accessible without its link from Ex-premie.org ?

Is this forum registerable with search engines ?

Nick Reid at U/C/M taught me everything I know about computers - so if you need any help....

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:06:33 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: www.hotboards.com
Message:
But I haven't found this forum thru a search engine.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:28:49 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: No EPO..How do people find this place ?
Message:
Yes it is. Here's one way that works for me.

In www.yahoo.com, I did a search for Drek. That brought up:
Roger's House of Maharaji Drek (with webmail: www.oz.net/~drek/ )

Inside it has Strong Links which includes a number of premie/ex-premie sites, including most importantly,
The Ex-premie Forum (Version 7)

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:27:47 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Would exiters search for Drek ? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 00:00:42 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Of course! Everyone wants Drek
Message:
Life is full of drek. Life is drek. Maharaji is drek. I am Drek and drek I am.

Yes, indeed, it's all true, every word of it.

I've just updated my links last night.

Thank you, Steve, for mentioning the House of Drek as a beacon of light to all those premies and ex-premies lost in the ocean of WWW. It does amaze me that Maharaji's House of Drek rises so high on the search engines, but it is satisfying, nevertheless.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 23:28:11 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Of course! Everyone wants Drek
Message:
My pleasure. And thank YOU! Love your site, Roger. I never tire of re-reading: 'Maharaji, can I tell you what its like to be poor?'
Gee, I'm glad your ancestors settled on Drek for a last name and not Drekula. Tee hee. (from one whose (mule-er) ancestors raised donkeys)
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:09:22 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: A question, Roger
Message:
What has the traffic been like on your site?
Have you seen an increase since EPO has been down?

I'm just curious.

Tonette- the inhuman voracious vulture, there's so much that's dead in Maharaji's world, why would I look a gift horse in the mouth?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:38:37 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: A question, Roger
Message:
Well, Tonette, it does seem that the traffic has increased a tad with EPO being down. Thanks for asking.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Would exiters search for Drek ?
Message:
No, they wouldn't, Loaf, you're right. Let me back up a bit. The first time I couldn't reach EPO, I did a search for maharaji on www.yahoo.com. This gives a ton of sites with other (some rather interesting, I must say, non-Prempal) Maharaji's. The second in the list is Maharaji's House of Drek. From there you can easily find Forum Seven.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:07:50 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: It's only been 8 days
Message:
Look guys, EPO will be back soon. Premies with doubts will find us, and hopefully, no one will take EPO down again. Exes who are away from their bookmarks, can either struggle a little finding the forum, or get on with real life for a little while, can't we?:-)

John

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:38:53 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: No EPO..How do people find this place ?
Message:
I had a helluva time finding it tonight as I was on a lap top, not my usual bookmarked computer. I had to go through one of the other sites to eventually find the forum. It took me a long time and I wondered how new people would find us, then a big DUH, I guess that was one of the objectives for sabotaging EPO, to keep people from linking here. Is there a way to connect this directly to a search engine?

By the way, the lap top didn't have the usual firewalls, and after a long post to Bai, started getting messed with then eaten right before my eyes. Very interesting.....

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 06:19:01 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Hi Vicki!
Message:
I am also having great difficulty now accessing any of the Links from this page and the sat chit room page.

It may just be me, as I posted Gerry and he said he had no probs.

Reading your post alerted me to the possibility of problems.

Meanwhile i have been unable to access any linked pages other than here which I have bookmarked.

Also the posts I checked at the bottom of the 700 list, that I had with Disculta and others, have all lost their content and show up blank for me.
I was wondering if some hungry bug was involved?
Love BaiX

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 18:49:28 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Hi Vicki + Bai ji;re computers!
Message:
INTERNET SECURITY BASICS:

I see you charming ladies both do windows! hohoho

ok, then, depending on your operating system and internet browser software - links may or may not work.

if it is a site hacking problem, it would happen to everybody here. I had trouble accessing some links, too. [but then, some windows graphics links don't seem to work on Macs]

And sometimes people set the links up wrong. [i've done it more than a few times myself]

Also, since the truth sites are under criminal cyber-terrorist attack, I advise everyone to delete their cache [what gets stored from browsing around], whenever you go off-line.

There is a website called: tucows.com it has lots of freeware and shareware. look for a program called 'Eradicator' - download it, put its folder on your desktop screen for quick access. Use it to clear your cache buffer every time you go on-line.

+ Never open any email file that has this suffix appended to it: .exe

[I personally use security software that inspects the contents of all email before it's ever opened]

delete email from any unknown sources. ask your friends Not to put your email address on generic forwarding lists. that's another way viruses are spread quickly.

if you have a real hacker concern - purchase a firewall program, or download a trial demo for 30 days, then find another trial demo one the next month.

I don't think you ladies are the object of hacking - but I could be wrong.

also, save the epo home page and the forum home page as 'Favorites' - there should be a menu item on your browser. then you can go in and click to it anytime. bingo!

some good search engines: google, hotbot lycos, altavista

also, go to 'Preferences':

r.e. receiving files - set cookies to 'never accept'

r.e. security zones - make sure you have it set so that your computer tells you [via a screen message] if any other activity is going on - like a file being received - while you are on-line

you can toggle between high security - then to medium for posting - then back

to post long stuff - write the stuff off-line on a word processor - copy it {Control-C) and then paste to where you want to post. or when you want to post something - go off-line and write your post in this reply box - then click on Post Reply - and your computer should dial up again and go-online.

Yes, some bad stuff IS going on - but there are people here [and at the FBI] already working on the cyber-terrorism problem.

Peace and lentils,

da lil swami

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 19:35:42 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Thank You Much Such!
Message:
I am doing all of the above with exception of cookies and warning when being accessed. I will figure that out.
I had no trouble accessing these links previously, they became inaccessable all of a sudden like.
I very much appreciate the info you sent.
Lotsa luv
Bai
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:27:37 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: the only cookies I like
Message:
-- are peanut butter cookies!
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 22:37:07 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What is with the Dog?
Message:
Been popping my chops here for quite some time, but what am I really after? Just asked myself this question. Maybe it's the sake talking but why do I continue to post here? What do I really want to say to exes?

To do their best!

That's what the Buddha said when he died. He knew that his disciples expected a last bit of advice. 'Do your best,' he said, and then he died.

Just thought I'd pass this on.

Hey, c'mon. It's Saturday night. Let me be maudlin for a while.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:09:40 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: DYB DYB DYB
Message:
Hi Dog,

This was also the motto of the Wolf Cubs- a British militaristic institution for 7-10 yr olds.

We would get in a circle, around the leader, 'Akela', and shout, 'Akela We'll Do Our Best.'

Then Akela would shout, 'DYB DYB DYB' (For Do Your Best)

And we'd shout 'We'll DOB DOB DOB' (Do Our Best)

I just thought I'd point out this similarity between the teachings of Akela, and the teachings of Buddha.

Anth of the four noble knots.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 18:19:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I never knew that
Message:
This forum is so educational. Of course I knew about dib dib dib, and dob dob dob, but not knowing what they meant I spelt dib wrong.

John the up to here checking links

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:45:11 (EST)
From: dhuuu
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Deep as the master
Message:
but of course. Doesn't everybody ty their brst at any time?

moronic. deep to you, eh?

Good luck Dog, and that is that you become yoru own person, not a programmed man, all in pieces, always trying to find explanations for all. Just live, live, and that is something you cannot do following moronic masters.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 08:10:34 (EST)
From: janaet
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: What is with us
Message:
well dog, if doing my best is all I'm supposed to be doing here, then i cant see how I could do anything but--seeing as how all we ex's are doing here is being ourselves and talking about our own lives the way they have truthfully happened to us.

There is no law anywhere by anyone that says we can't talk about our lives and how we live them. that's why it's so pathetic when others think we're about bringing down maharaji. if he didn't do the things he does, we would'nt have any such thing to talk about, would we? our lives wouldn't have gone the way they did and we wouldn't be here talking to each other about it.

if he wants it to stop--well, it's too late to wipe ot the past. the past has happened. but he could stop doing any more of it.

and we would still go on talking bout how what he did, and what we did in connection to him, in the past, and in the present, affects us.

though that's no excuse for him not to stop doing the same things, because they're still wrong.

do our best? i don't know about best, but we do what we will. we're just being ourselves. if he takes that as a personal affront, that's strictly his view.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 00:17:09 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I prefer the doganands
Message:
of this world to the catshitanands, any day.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 04:26:35 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I prefer the doganands - amen!
Message:
Well said, Dermot.

Precisely, Dog, you're always welcome and I think you hang out here because you know that it is the company of truth. :C)

I might not agree with your religious beliefs but I know your heart's in the right place, Poochie. (That was my dad's nickname for me.)

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:22:31 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: hamzen@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Maharaji, a few suggestions yeah
Message:
Mariachi, I mean marjie, sorry

For some reason I feel sorry for you at the moment.
It must be hard when the family business is falling apart before your eyes, and fast, and all you can rely on to delay the event are sad characters like crapweasle who have no idea of pr, admittedly there must be some satisfaction for those ego driven premies who've spent their whole adult life wanting to be close to you and can see it drifting away before their eyes and thinking something must be done. But I know you know better than that.

To keep this whole scene going for 30 years means you're more pr aware than they are, which is why you get so frustrated with them all.

Well I've got a few suggestions for you to help in what must be a difficult transition period for you, I know you can forget I'm an ex follower when it comes to business decisions.

Now, unconsciously mostly, you are going in the right direction, but so old school, and that doesn't work anymore as you instinctively know.

The one thing you've always been half good at, apart from your confidence levels when you're fronting it, is to pick up on the zeitgeist flavours, especially with regards to sensitive and needy people. Christ how many people have made such a good living out of it as you, and that's apart from the free sex with some seriously fit women, I mean what premie bloke wouldn't admit they wouldn't mind shagging marilyn, so your bit on the side must be ok too, apart from the blow jobs and one nighters with the gopis.
That leaves out the free drugs and booze, and not even touching on the techno toys and jets etc. I reckon you've done all right for yourself.

Now the only reason I'm bothering putting this post up is that I see you groping toward the immense social changes that have been happening in western democracies over the last ten years, and that you are trying to move that way to tap into that energy, a good move, but that you are so uncool about it, and that seriously exposes you to a more streetwise younger generation who no longer tolerate vulnerability.

As I'm sure you know, being a zeitgeist detector, albeit unconsciously, is that 'that' vulnerability is now out of fashion, and as e culture is breaking in the usa, so will new age stuff truly be out of fashion too, except for a few oldies. I reckon you've got about 3 years to do the switch.
No the numbers, and the dosh big time, can only come from beatz culture, and the new cool, as you already suspect. The question is how to integrate it, tricky eh!
I see you're groping towards the new bohemians, ie flash web culture, but you're a bit late there, in fact embarrassingly late. I'd invest in a few outsiders if I were you, premies always were a bit slow on picking up on this stuff. Drop the flash and get back to basic html & dhtml if you want to seem cool, but you really need to be looking at your design skills. Christ even milivich realizes this.
Those graphics on your site are bad, not baad as in good, but bad as in crap.
Get yourself a good outside designer in (I know it's money, but you've done it with your trainers (but that route is so eighties ie guilt induced bogus teamwork), designers who can explain the new minimalism to you and help you adapt.
Second I see you've set yourself up with a decent studio, and that you're trying to produce ambient house as well as that low grade kitschy new age ambient. Don't bother, the kind of money you're after won't be found there, that market is saturated.
Start checking out detroit booty stuff, Destiny's Child, Miss E Elliott, the UK garage scene, drum & bass and the new latino flavours, ie black house stuff, not white hippy shit, serious money happening there, and from the white middle class market largely untapped.

If you lost some weight, and not a lot, so not too demanding, we know how short your attention span is anyway, took a few e's so you knew how to loosen up a bit, cut down on the spliffs, you could have a good time for once, turn the premies in a more interesting direction, I mean thirty years of new age stuff is enough to get anyone irritable right!
And you always had a good arse, so you could do that booty rumble easy, and the simple pleasure apart from the money side of things, would be a revelation for and from you. Jesus if even an old cheapo hippy like me can get young women jacking to me, with your dosh no sweat, and that leaves out the good sex, I mean what premie can shag like bootie dAncers, you know it makes sense.
The thing is though m, until you experience this stuff it won't mean anything to you, and you can't fake it as easily in this dance/modern culture, as you could with naive hippies, so at some point you're gonna have to let go a bit, since the hippies are all leaving and ageing.
Also find a few renegade premies who are into the house scene, you really don't know how to fx the beatz at all, you're ambient house stuff is embarrassingly kindergarten, and obvious straightout to everyone who's been on the scene for even just a few weeks.

Christ even on the ex-premie scene, not renowned for being hip, there's patrick wilson producing techno trance trax for years, tim goulding trying to incorporate beatz into his celtic vibes, and that's apart from the punters like me into me local drum&bass posse, that belly dancer Robyn well into her dirty garage (chinese spare ribs indeed, sorry m, private joke between me and her), Jethro into his goa trance, Selene into CLASSY ambient stuff as well as upbeat, Charlie & Lee into their goa trance, even mr stiffy Jim appreciates mc'ed drum & bass, and that leaves out old rockers like Jerry who appreciates ambient breakbeats, and Nigel who's getting the drift of breakbeats. Just stay away from the likes of sc, he hasn't got a clue, it's the renegades you want, and before they dessert you, ie soon.

Loosen up on the dress code too, and not just casual versions of that eighties business dressing you've always been into, it's so passe now.

If you could do it, then that respect you're so desperate for would come, but only with one new additional factor. Authenticity nowadays is only accepted from those who can GENUINELY take the piss out of themselves, and can accept it when others do it to them, if you don't get that sorted you're stuffed. And that can't be faked, so you've got your work cut out, but you've still got time and could do it, and maybe have some real pleasure before you kick the bucket.
But think of the respect man, I know HOW MUCH you crave that, and not the bogus respect for the person you aren't, that you get from premies, but the fun guy we know you are under all this bogus guru front.

If you can get your web shit sorted, and your beatz, but most importantly your attitude and let go of that stiff superiority number you've been carrying for so long, then you could wing it for another ten years I reckon, when you'll be burnt out anyway man.

Can you imagine the relief you'd feel, I can't imagine what it's like carrying the baggage you've had to all this time, and with so little change over time in the culture, and that's apart from the health benefits for your old age.

If you did all that I reckon you could get away with guru rapping over your beatz, especially with your pole dancing daughters who I hear are pretty fit also.
You'd also find you were less crass with your sexual innuendo, not appreciated now, too 1950's/80's, your jokes would improve, even premies would feel liberated to rejoin the real world and send you more dosh, as well as picking up on the new relaxed vibe which they would think was coming from your new sari free open culture where you can truly be yourself now that you've done your mission your father set to take premiedom across the world, you could call it phase 2, they'd never notice.

I wish you luck, and if you ever want to hire a zeitgeist counsellor e-mail me at the above address, I'm sure we could arrange terms.

Yours in appreciation of the hole you're in

hamzen

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:16:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Maharaji, a few suggestions yeah
Message:
ham,
'chinese spare ribs indeed'
Hey, forgot to mention, the only thing I could think of for the meaning of the ferret was to use it like you use to hear hamsters being used up the bum, remember that? Thought maybe the ferret could be the hetero version of the same. :)
R
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 04:57:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: ex-premie scene, not hip!!??
Message:
Excuse me! How many 55 year grandfathers know and dance to ''detroit booty stuff, Destiny's Child, Miss E Elliott, the UK garage scene, drum & bass and the new latino flavours, ie black house stuff, not white hippy shit?'' (Why so pious? :C) You mean wannabe wigga crap like the robotic white rave-scene shit.)

Back in the day when it seemed that Rawat had his finger on the pulse of the zeitgeist it was accidental. His Eastern crap coincided with our youthful disgust at white western middle-class apathy in the face of Viet Nam. He got weirder and weirder after that.

He has no taste, is out of touch with the real world, has learned nothing from his own kids because they too are Malibu Barbie dolls. Please remember that this man came from a background where Xmas lights threaded through tinselly malas on a guru puja altar was cool. No he is a has-been or a never-was.

Do you ever watch Real World? Can you imagine any of those kids falling for Maharajism? As middle class as they are, they are street smart or at least ask too damn many questions. The cult's finished in the west and does not have long to go in the east.

Thanks for that treat, ham. Just what I needed before turning in.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 22:19:45 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: jesus, everyone's at it.....
Message:
....at the moment. Feeling sorry for the guy that is.

Could this be it, the bursting of the long awaited Peace Bomb? Like that movie about the parrot that infected New York with the love bug.

We gloomy old retards who don't know a breakbeat from a cornflake like to think of the guy's next move as topping up his brandybeaker to the brim, spinning the chamber of the revolver he keeps in his sock draw,& contemplating LILA.

Funny stuff this compassion,takes different people different ways ay differeent times. I'm not knocking it though. Cheers.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:49:39 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Hahaha LOL [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:31:09 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: 'Shallow' is the new 'deep'
Message:
Keep that as your mantra m, while making the other changes I suggested, and you might have something worthwhile to pass on as a family business, you hardly want to be seen as a failure through your fathers eyes eh?

And remember the dosh as premies get into this new relaxed phase will rise, they've had a rough ride for a long while, they'll appreciate the chance to relax a bit after all these years, might even get them meditating for pleasure, no bad thing eh.
You could advertise your events as drug free raves for the enlightened, most premies wouldn't have a clue they could be having 'that' experience at raves at a much higher level.

Remember it's never too late to alter the perception of you after you've gone, memories are short.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 20:26:11 (EST)
From: Just passing through
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji of Malibu's new day job
Message:
Is this the same and one only gu gone awol, as Gypsy Rose Lee.
The prices are about right! What about the marketing.
[ too goo to be true! ]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:25:04 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Just passing through
Subject: The design skills are about right for him
Message:
ie seriously crap
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:38:57 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Danielle - is she an ex or what?
Message:
I am confused. Where is Danielle at? I have read (and re-read) various of her postings but can't for the life of me work out what she is on about.

If she is an ex then all I can say is 'Keep up the good work Danielle - you sure are doing a grand job in exposing cultish behaviour!'

Love
ExP
[ Danielle's latest missive .. ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:45:56 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: there's a 'diffamation' of opinion here:
Message:
Danielle wrote:

'If the techniques are real, what happens to the person who masters them 100%?'

Now, there's a conceptual stretch, Danielle.

What you mean by 'real?'

Secondly, Who has mastered the techniques '100%'? We just have the claim of someone who heard voices in his head -- when he was 8 years old and traumatised by daddy's sudden death -- and then he claimed to be a massa, in front of a crowd of superstitious illiterate people.

If you have any proof of someone actually mastering these techniques 100%, we'd certainly like to see it!

But I don't think that's possible [to prove], Danielle. So, it is merely another illusory concept.

Apparently, you haven't 'realised the knowledge' yet. You sound very confused. Accordingly, I would seriously advise some mental health counselling - for the sake of your equilibrium and well-being. Bonne nuit!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:05:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: such
Subject: My opinion
Message:
she's a troll.

Her first message on the French forum was full of threats and an attack. Then she went on trying to defame and threaten some of us, and so on, until I blocked her.

And her first message was sent from a US IP where some of the Cacas attacks came from.

That enough for me to draw some conclusions.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:18:04 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: thanks for the advisory, J-M [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:09:54 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M, please email me.....
Message:
Very interesting. Did you confirm that with a ''Visualroute'' trace?
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:24:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: PatC
Subject: Re: J-M, please email me.....
Message:
JHB did!
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:00:03 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, J-M [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 04:27:01 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: there's a 'diffamation' of opinion here:
Message:
Oh dear

I hope I have not hurt Danielle's feelings over there on LG. She seems to be saying byby.

Maybe byby to LG and hello to F7?

Welcome to the real world Danielle - Life really is great when you finally wake up.

ExP
[ Danielle's last good bye ]

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:12:55 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: we'll see...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:34:25 (EST)
From: Mad in America
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Danielle's seriously screwed--best to ignore her [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:15:11 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's 'Academy'...
Message:
What is the Goober up to now? Sample:

Since its establishment, the Academy embarked on the course of contributing towards healthy productivity and the well being of society, and is committed to continuing with these aims.

It is also the policy of the Academy not to be involved in issues of religion or politics, nor to advocate any particular belief or lifestyle. The Academy’s sole purpose is to present Maharaji’s addresses on self-awareness.

The activities of Prime Academy Malaysia Berhad are funded mainly by voluntary contributions. There is no charge for attending events or video presentations or for receiving the techniques of self-awareness that Maharaji offers. At some events advance registration for pre-assigned seats is offered at a nominal-processing fee to cover administrative costs.
[ Prime Academy Malaysia Berhad ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:44:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Probably...same old same old
Message:
This is just Elan Vital in Malaysia and Singapore, both of which, especially Singapore have fairly strict rules about both political and religious movements, and Elan Vital, the way it's set up in the West, is pretty much just a religion, and even classified as a 'church' by the IRS.

So, they probably feel it's safer to call themselves an 'academy' and say they aren't involved with religion or politics. Other than that, it appears just to be the cult called something else.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 16:02:55 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Link to Maharaji
Message:
It's really funny, you go in the site, and read this sober, well-presented, intro about this serious academy, and how its purpose is to present the teachings of Maharaji, and they have a link to Maharaji's website. So the serious academic, clicks, and if they have the patience, eventually gets these floating welcome messages in several languages, and after figuring out that they have to find the one in their language and click on it while it's moving round the screen, they then do lose patience and miss out on gems of wisdom such as:-

It's easy to forget but so sweet to remember.

Yes, great for the academy's academic reputation.

John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:58:24 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: yep, different name, same game [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:00:05 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: richard@rogers-graphics.com
To: All
Subject: It was 30 years ago today
Message:
I received knowledge on January 19, 1972

That auspicious day 30 years ago began with much anticipation. I had been waiting since the summer of 1971 when I first heard that ‘He' had come to spread peace throughout the world.

Having primed myself on Stranger in a Strange Land, Autobiography of a Yogi, Zen Mind Beginner’s Mind and Be Here Now plus copious quantities of LSD25 and the local psylocybin cubensis (magic mushrooms), I was ready to hear about the next step on my path.

In late 1971, I had attended a talk by Mahatma Fakiranand . Many of the Tallahassee hipsters had just returned from seeing the Satguru in India and the energy was exciting. I loved the obvious spirituality of it all: a real live Indian Mahatma (great soul), flowers and incense, Indian music and a coterie of former hippies now shorn and squeaky clean n their yoga whites. Very authentic and appealing.

Such great fortune to have heard about the greatest incarnation of God of all time. I was so pumped after hearing Fakiranand speak that I just had to tell my girlfriend all about it. After parroting satsang to her for quite awhile, she finally asked 'can I go to sleep now?' Well, that told me she obviously did not have 'the ears to hear' so I drained my waterbed and moved out soon after that.

By January, 1972 I was ready to receive the Knowledge of all Knowledges. The K session was being held in a huge meeting room at Florida State University. How ironic that I had received my degree in Mass Communications at FSU the year before. There were about 200 of us for the K selection process, which consisted of each person being asked if they were ready and if we had any other guru. On guy said he benefited from William Jame’s writings and was dismissed. Another wanted to discuss spirituality and was dismissed. Most were asked 'Are you ready?' They answered 'Yes' and were OK’d to stay.

When it came my turn, Fakiranand asked me 'Are you ready?' Having noted the best response, I said 'Yes' and he surprised me by asking 'What are you ready for?' Quick thinking allowed me to smartly answer 'I am ready to receive the Knowledge of Guru Maharaj Ji.' It wasn’t a good enough answer. Maybe he read my cynical mind but he came back with 'You should be ready to wait your entire lifetime for this precious Knowledge.' Then he took off on a tirade about how one must take K seriously. Funny, but the justice of the peace said the same thing (the serious bit) when I was married in 1984.

I really grooved on the total heaviosity of the occasion and flipped out when he squeezed my eyeballs. (At the K session, not at my wedding.) We were told to silently pronounce 'So' on the inhale and 'Hung' on exhale to mimic the sound the breath makes. Yeah, baby! I’m plugged into the cosmos now. From that day on it was a magical mystery tour that took me to Montrose, Colorado for holy breath and darshan. With the aforementioned chemically primed psychic pump and expectations induced by much imaginative satsang, I was ready to literally see GMJ as god incarnate. India 1972 was next, I moved into the ashram in Tallahassee in early 1973, was called for service in Denver that summer and on to Millennium ‘73 in the Astrodome. I put my Mass Communications degree to good use by designing Divine Times and And It Is Divine until 1979. I practiced K consistently for 14 years. I stopped within a week after a K review with M in Florida. He said arrogantly and rhetorically 'You know, you don’t have to practice Knowledge.' It was as if a spear went through my solar plexus. I realized I had been practicing K because I thought I had to. So, in a way, Maharaji deprogrammed me.

As I post this, I have bittersweet memories of the last 30 years. The 24-year-old seeker of truth that heard an answer to the cosmic question is still alive in me today. I still honor the sweet naiveté and pioneer spirit that brought me to GMJ’s door and to K. I still yearn to see peace established in the world and I still endeavor to serve humanity.

I learned many valuable lessons in my travels with M & K. I learned to love deeply. I learned that my culture was not the only or best one. I learned to live with people from many backgrounds. At 1410 High Street ashram in Denver there were maybe 20 nations represented. I learned skills in graphic design that I use in my business to this day. I am proud to have worked alongside many other optimistic and fully committed people who wanted to make the world a better place and thought we were backing the guy that could get the job done. Ultimately I learned that what M said and what he did were entirely different. This led me to the biggest lesson of all – I am the source of love and pain in my life. The choices I make are mine and I have to take responsibility for my choices.

Richard who is 30 years older and wiser but not so-hung anymore

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:20:59 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Happy un birthday Richard
Message:
It was my 27th knowledge birthday on 28th December but I didn't remember till now oh dear I really must be a rotting vegetable.
Bests Mags
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:20:57 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: It was 30 years ago today
Message:
What a wonderful post,
My heart resonates, if I dare say so!
I have enjoyed your posts for the last year or so, and I really appreciate ( see what I mean) your contribution. Master McGoo has hijacked so much of our vocabulary!
Tonight, I talked with a very recent ex on the phone who asked me a lot of questions...Here's one..
If we were in a cult, was it the best one?
It made me think, where I might have been otherwise!
Kelly
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:34:14 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Resonate all you want, Kelly
Message:
Our heart resonance said YES to the promise of cosmic love. Just because M decided to turn his promise into a cash cow doesn't mean we have to be bitter. The lovers we were are the lovers we still are. So resonate on and on.

Answering your friend's question: If we were in a cult, was it the best one?
You're damn right it was the best cult. I wouldn't have joined otherwise.

Thanks for the nice thoughts.
Richard

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:29:44 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly
Message:
Could you put your e mail up again my e mail has gone mad and I can't get into it to get your address Thanks. Mags
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:44:15 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: Kelly
Message:
Hi Magiclara,
You should recieve a gift in the post in the next week. You will probably find that someone is paying you special attention. Don't forget to remember the meaning of your life, and maybe there is a special someone who is allways there for you. Do you remember his name? NO! I thought you didn't!
You ungrateful wretch, you will surely rot like a vegetable!
Kelly
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:09:12 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: Kelly
Message:
Thanks Kelly I can feel the putrification as we speak.
Love Mags
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 03:01:43 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: YOU thought you had to do it?
Message:
Hi Richard. Great description of when you received K and the early days of the DLM. You and OTS are bringing back a lot of memories!

One thing struck me in your post, however, when you said about Maharaji saying you 'didn't have to practice Knowledge' and that up until then you had been practicing because YOU thought you had to (as if this were some silly concept you generated from your own confused mind). Well . . . not!! What about the 'commandments' which were de rigeur on the ashram walls, one of which was to 'always meditate and remember Holy Name'? Did we make that up? What about the ashram schedule of an hour's meditation morning and night every single day? Whose idea was that, just some confused mahatma's?

This is such a perfect example of how M likes to change the rules and goalposts at whim and make it sound like everything that went before, even something as fundamental as when and how to meditate to realize 'His' Knowledge, was something which came from anyone other than him. It was drilled into us that Knowledge was a lifetime thing, and we were to constantly try and practice it (well, Holy Name and Nectar, anyhow) until we 'realized' it. Realizing Knowledge was seen as the ultimate goal, remember? This came directly from M, and he mentioned it in many satsangs up until that contradictory statement.

I'm glad you stopped practicing the phoney Knowledge because of that one quote, but it sounds to me like you're blaming yourself for the rigorous discipline you applied to your practice of Knowledge, and I think we ought to remember where and whom that whole 'concept' (and boy, was it ever a concept) came from.

Anyhow, great post.
Love,
Joy

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:02:55 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Yes, Joy I thought I had to.
Message:
Joy,

Even though I agree with your point that we were vigorously 'persuaded' to practice K, I choose to see myself as responsible for the choices I made. Otherwise, I must view myself as a victim which I do not. I will attempt to explain.

When I first heard of GMJ and K, I responded to it and chose to explore further. After satisfying myself that K was what I wanted, I went for it. When I realized that K without darshan was pointless, I went to Montrose Guru Puja and, later in 1972, to India. Moving into the ashram was my choice because I wanted to be more committed. Accepting a call to move to Denver for full time service was my choice. Yes, I agree with you the order of the day was a hysterical devotional frenzy but it appealed to me and I chose that path.

Flash forward to 1986 when, after much group work and introspection, I realized how I'd willingly given my power away. I saw M in a new light. His flippant 'take it or leave it' remark was a catalyst that galvanized my thoughts. M appeared to me as an arrogant authority figure. Since I was becoming my own authority, he was redundant. So for me, it was easy to 'walk' because I had already established a new sense of identity self worth that did not rely on M & K.

I am not at all blaming myself for practicing K but I am taking responsibility for having made that choice. All I ask of M is that he take responsibility for his part instead of pretending it never happened.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:17:19 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Aha! Joy and Richard!
Message:
Dear Richard (So-hung-anand) and Joy (Wildwomanbaiji),

Hi old buddies! There you are in my computer discussing whether or not we were victims. Yes, I agree (with you both)!

Great thread!

The one thing that I sometimes get a bit concerned about, in posting here, is that I don't want to collude with the idea of victimhood either. To clarify this, I would never tell anyone else that they weren't a victim -- in particular those who got victimized as children, but also anyone who suffered. I think it's actually very important to acknowledge that one has been victimized or perpetrated against. Otherwise the tendency to take a kind of grandiose over-responsibility for the behavior of others can be very detrimental. Shame is a bugger for the bod.

It has been very important for me, at certain stages in my life, and sometimes for long periods, to acknowledge that I have been victimized. What has worked for me, however, is to acknowledge this by fully feelings the feelings involved, NOT by building a whole mental case about it, which I have found tends to coagulate and strengthen the wound, thus victimizing myself more. But I've found that by fully exploring, in an embodied way, the FEELINGS brought on by the situations in which I was victimized, an amazing thing happens, in which the energy goes through a shift more powerful than anything I ever experienced with Knowledge. The feelings of powerlessness actually, viscerally, seem to transmute into feelings of empowerment. It's a very healing experience and is in fact the thing that has most healed me from my very deep and emotionally intense cultic and devotional involvement with Rawat.

And from that place of actually FEELING empowered (and this has been the case even though I have had a chronic illness) I have had the clear perception that I was not a victim, and that I made certain choices (which I wouldn't make now). I've found for myself, to my surprise, actually, that it is actually healthier and feels better for me to take full responsibility for the whole thing than try to eke the dubious pleasure out of continually projecting blame for the whole thing.

Having said this, as you may have noticed, I post here, and I'm still into telling it like it was, and have been quite active in the attempts here to hold Rawat accountable, and particularly to help anyone still being used by him. It's a complex dance for me; different approaches are appropriate at different stages. I totally support and validate anyone who feels they were victimized. And if I were working with them therapeutically (I'm retired but did this for 2 decades, including with lots of people exiting from this and other cults), I would encourage the kind of dynamic process with feelings I mentioned above.

Richard, I believe you have explored some of what I am talking about, if you care to comment more.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:07:28 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Aha! Joy and Richard!
Message:
Wow Katie, you put it so eloquently. Thanks for seeing both sides and all sides to this. It really and truly is a complex 'meglolis' that deserves insights such as those provided by your experience. Of course I don't want to add to anyone's shame regarding being victimized.

I was sharing today with our gathering of ex's that it was you who directed my wife to the Loving Relationships Trainings which, eventually, taught us how to summons our own personal authority. It wasn't scary at all for me because I felt empowered to move forward without the crutch of M & K.

Richard, here with more empowerment than ever before

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:54:23 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Aha! Joy and Richard!
Message:
Hi Katie,

Interesting comments (and from Richard, too). I don't think I was alluding so much to victimhood as to just that there wasn't really an option back in the 1970s when most of us received K, to practice or not. If you wanted to be a proper premie you practiced Knowledge as diligently as you could (including the occasional all-day meditation in the satsang hall, remember?), and there wasn't the option to not do so at your discretion, as Maharaji seemed to indicate by his comment in the 1980s, quoted by Richard.

So while we can take overall responsibility for being a premie in the first place, in those early days HOW one put that into practice wasn't really very loose. If you were single (or married without kids) you moved into the ashram if you were a proper devotee, and kept to the schedule M (not mahatmas or anybody else) prescribed for those people, including rigorous meditation. I just find it incredibly annoying that Maharaji would then turn around and say all of a sudden that it was an optional thing, not mandatory, when for all of the years I was involved, there wasn't the merest suggestion of this, practicing Knowledge was totally mandatory if you wanted to be a premie.

So in a way I don't exactly see us as victims because we chose to be premies (in the way you describe, Katie), but the WAY we had to be as premies, I put down to Maharaji's directives. Some of those ashram meetings were incredibly heavy, threatening dire consequences (going to hell, rotting like a ton of vegetables, etc.) if one didn't surrender completely to M. If you were at all sincere and impressionable, it didn't leave much room for personal interpretation as to how to go about it all.

Ah well . . . so glad to be out of it all now and not have to answer to the jerk.

BTW, just got back from a Seattle Latvian lunch (we seem to specialize in sober upscale lunches here rather than the boozy all-nighters the Brits seem to get up to) with Jim Heller, Richard and Mercedes, it was trés cool.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:31:17 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Aha! Joy and Richard!
Message:
Dear Joyful One,

Yes, I agree completely! And there is no doubt in my mind that MJ directly instructed us to meditate constantly, remember holy name, move in the ashram, mediate for 2 horus at least a day, (and leave no doubt in our mind) and then, basically, you had to take what you got, or get out of the whole thing. And getting out of the whole thing was a HUGE step, actually unthinkable to me -- I never even CONSIDERED it, till I did, did you? -- compared to the next step that he drew me into. So I agree that the choice factor was very murky and definitely inaccessible to me for most of the time I was in, once I was in. It reminds me of the story about the monkey and the jar.

Much love to you,

Katie Darling

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:33:09 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Dearest Richard
Message:
Happy Anniversary of your coming full circle.

Your post was warm and funny and gave me my first laugh of the day with your ...not so hung confession.

I'm a Bai but I too am not so hung these days either.
The last few days have been a bit tough for me and i tend to berate myself for not getting through all this sooner. Some Ghreenies (sp) apparently Haters in Hindi - not tree huggers, seem to be exiting pretty rapidly without too much collateral damage.

Just when I think i'm ok, i have a slump and find myself depressed and not sleeping well. Defragmenting dreams seem to be happening each REM which means i can wake up pretty exhausted and the cycle continues.

Without here to check into for the care and support from these True Lovers of That Truth, That Feeling, That Sincerity, I don't see how i could deprogram myself without snapping something crucial to my sanity.

I have already been emotionally Fucked Over the last 27 years, that i now feel i have the arrested development of a 14 year old.

Too old to have children, even if i could replace the long ingrained 'understanding' that it was not the thing to do if I Really wanted to serve m.
Afraid to think about a normal human relationship as i have no developed adult skills in that area.
My boundaries are all fucked up.

What a sad indictment to a lifetime spent with the Living Lord of Love.

Oh well, pick myself up, dust myself off and start all over again.
Only thing is I possibly only have 20-30 years left and at the rate i've been going I shall have Realized absolutely Nothing!
Need a few hundred more lifetimes and as i have no idea about anything anymore, that is no comfort to me whatsoever.

Don't mind me, I am just one of those personalities who are prone to naval gazing, the Blues and malaise.

Anyway, again, thank you for your contributions here and for enticing a laugh out of me.

Lots of Love Bai Ji

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:35:34 (EST)
From: vicki
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Dearest Richard
Message:
Dear Bai Ji,

I shouldn't worry about keeping up with any other ex during this process. You were in it at a very young age, M and his family became your entire world, and you were privy to things most ex'es weren't. It's only natural to feel like you're on a rollar coaster.

In those first few months, I honestly thought I was on the brink of a nervous breakdown, and I was just a lowly little premieji. That subsided, and subtle moods took over, like being on a drifting raft, bobbing up and down with motions of the waves. I honestly thought nothing would ever be the same for me again. Kind souls here kept saying it would, but really, I didn't believe them. Then the most amazing thing happened, it did get better. Way better. And I got my life back in a new way that I am enjoying. Now, I only get that depressing feeling if I am not true to this new energy that suddenly got released after being under lock and key for thirty years.

I'm worried about you because your confidence was stolen and used by Maharaji and his family. I bet if you started making a chronological list of service duties for each year in, you'd be astounded. A resume writer would be able to parlay these into a perfectly respectable and presentable resume.

A year ago yesterday, I watched my daughter nearly die during childbirth, and my grandaughter miraculously born with a hematoma huge enough to make us gasp, thinking she had a deformed skull. Childbirth is not always the blissful experience it's cracked up to be. There are many children in this world who need love, care and nurturing. Children are children, regardless if they enter this world through our bodies or not. I instantly adored and loved my son's girlfriend's daughter just as intently as I do my grandaughter. I know of a childless, older couple who decided they had missed out by focusing on medical careers instead of having children. Because they were older, and their friend's children were now older, they decided to adopt two older girls who were sisters. They had been abused and put up for adoption. Not the likeliest of children to be individully adopted, let alone kept together. These girls love this couple to the nth degree, and their new parents love them to death. What are the chances these girls were given a new start like that? All the abuses weren't magically erased, but with therapy and love, they got a chance to be what they were; children loved for themselves.

You sound like you are full of love. Sharing it with some babies who need rocking, like preemies, crack babies or simply giving a new mother a desperately needed break, so she can get some vital sleep and stave off postpartum depression might help. Even daycare, if only volunteering for a little while each week. Its amazing to be around children during the ex'ing process. They are just so alive, in the here and now, and completely contagious.

Two weeks ago, I spent four hours in a waiting room at the hospital in the surgery wing. It happened to be the chemotherapy day for children, and so I sat in the same room with children ranging in ages from two to sixteen, and their parents. One smiling child came beaming in, happily telling the nurse it was her tenth birthday. There wasn't a shred of pity or anger that she was spending her tenth birthday getting chemo, she was that full of life. Some of these little kids were tired from their cancers, they were wearing hats covering hair loss and the sixteen year old had on a wig that kept slipping. She was as beautiful as Daya.

The nurse who's 'job' it was to sit among these children, and entertain them in the waiting room was truly like an angel. She alleviated the stress and fear and angst among the children and parents alike. She played and laughed and talked to them not in that scary medical way, but just as if they were well and normal as any child. She was pregnant. Over and over the arriving kids would light up when they saw her tummy and shyly pointed out that she was having a baby. All of them wanted to know about this baby she was having. It was so touching, because to me, these kids seemed to be on a wavelength that connected them to this new life. And I saw the look on their parents faces, and all I could see was how, they not so long ago had been carrying these children, never expecting to be spending their young childhoods watching them tortured like this, and knowing their child's life was being stolen away. There wasn't a parent there that would not have traded places with their child so they could live.

All these children want is to be able to be a kid. All their parents want is for them to live. They don't have lofty ambitions, like we as premies did, of realizing knowledge, and the mysteries of the universe. They just want to live and be ordinary, not extrordinary. Well enough to have a normal bad day, not having to barf their guts out or be carried out screaming from being hooked up to bottles of poisons being shot in their veins.

I've watched my own mom with chemo for over a year, and now she's melting away from the effects of twenty radiation treatments, with more to go. You know what she wants? She wants to get well enough to trim her bushes and do her own housework, and see her grandchildren. Not lofty requests. Just ordinary. It's the ordinary these humans miss. The ordinary that Maharaji and knowledge convinced us was not the enjoyment of life. Well, I'm sorry but he's wrong. And he was wrong to take that and dupe us and now we think life on this level is subpar. It is not.

It's the getting on and standing, slowly on our own two feet that gives us our confidence back. Social skills, and interpersonal skills are just skills that can be learned by anyone. You seem to be blessed with an especially fun personality. Once you get out there and share it, the fear of inadequecies will dissipate. It just got hijacked by the belief that only Marolyn's, and the girl's personalities mattered, along with their wants and whims. They aren't royal.

It will be better and feeling like this will barely be a forgotten
memory, like a fleeting dream. Promise!

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 19:29:00 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Oh Vicki.......
Message:
What can I say to tell you how moved I am by your kind and caring words?

I am shifted from my self absorption to understand how beautiful all people are.
My closed minded superiority that prevailed with my belief that m was saving me, limited my compassion, not enhanced it.
I have always considered myself compassionate, but along with the many revelations that are occurring to me at present, I suspect that I have truly just been very selfish.
Soon, I trust that the necessary healing will take place and I will live my life in union with what I feel to be true.
In synch with me, not some 'Team' or Master's wishes.

Thank You for taking the time to care for me, an invisible person, that you don't know.

Maharaji never spent one moment I am sure..... Even In My Deepest Darkest Hour I Was Still Abandoned.

Each day my chin is lifted up by the kindness I receive here.
Warmest Thanks to You
Love Bai Ji XXX

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:18:08 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Vicki
Message:
Hi I was just skimming through and saw Kelly's post and wanted to get in touch with her cos of technical difficulties, which pointed me to your post. Your posts are wonderful. That day at the hospital sounds so amazing. I look around me more and more and see ordinary everyday people, who don't have a secret knowledge who are kind and brave and deal with the most awful things with such strength, dignity and integrity, and yes these ordinary people do have happy joyful lives without the need to pretend that life is constantly great.
Bests Mags
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:35:38 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Wow! Vicki
Message:
I was deeply moved by your post, not least becuase I am in that same boat, my husband has cancer and is having a punishing round of chemotherapy.....but....life goes on! Oohbladi oobladah !
What can you do, except make the very best of things, enjoy life every moment, etc etc.
Master McGoo has nothing more to say, and is no help at all, in fact his attempt at ownership of such simple philosophies....drives me to distraction!
Thanks for your perceptive input.
Kelly
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 14:13:38 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Thanks Vicki for your beautiful message.
Message:
You made my day. Thanks for sharing that beautiful message. I agreed with every word of it especially this:

''Now, I only get that depressing feeling if I am not true to this new energy that suddenly got released after being under lock and key for thirty years.''

You hit the nail right on the head.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:20:13 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Amazing post Richard [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 13:22:57 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Actually meant Vicki :)
Message:
Sorry....got the names mixed up. I enjoy a good dose of cynicism and scepticism but heck, we've still got hearts of gold. Thanks for the reminder:)
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 12:43:27 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Serving humanity, indeed vicki
Message:
Beautiful post Vicki. In my receiving K post, I concluded by saying I still want to serve humanity which was one of the main draws to GMJ & K. You have shown that you have mastered service to humanity and I I bow to you.

You also said the following which sums up what would benefit anyone exiting. It's the getting on and standing, slowly on our own two feet that gives us our confidence back. Well said.

The best,
Richard

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 12:14:26 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: lovely post, vicki (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:51:06 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: What a beautiful post, Vicki
Message:
That was a really touching post, Vicki.

I think one of the hardest things to accept and come to terms with after exiting is the ordinariness of life. We were conditioned by M to expect so much more, to try and be so much more, to live 'special' lives, to consider ourselves so different from the rest of 'ignorant' humanity. Having to face the fact that you're not any different, and life isn't any more enjoyable to you than it is to anyone else is kind of sobering and humbling. Then you just get on with finding that joy and simplicity in the everyday aspects of life, in your family and friends, and the kindness of strangers, as you suggest.

It's kind of hard to let go of the idea of being the chosen few and leading this somehow extraordinary life, when in reality your life is no more extraordinary than anyone else's. I think Maharaji instills subtle illusions of grandiosity in us all that need carefully deconstructing until we can become more truly, more fully human again. That nurse in the cancer ward sounds to me a more whole and human person than M with his high-falutin materialistic lifestyle will ever be. To me, this is what is to be strived for, not an imitation of M's wealthy lifestyle, which is what a lot of premies seem to aspire to.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:49:04 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: richard@rogers-graphics.com
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Dearest Richard
Message:
Thank you Bai Ji. I'm so pleased you got a laugh from my silly play on words. Apparently Pat and gerry really got into it. If we can't laugh at ourselves and our bizarre beliefs, we end up soooo serious and cling dearly to those beliefs.

Thanks for being so honest and vulnerable when describing your current state of mind. It is truly comforting to know we're all in it together. I feel I must know you. If you want to chat via email, I am very strict with confidentiality.

Big hug Bai Ji.

Richard a.k.a. Mahatma So Hung Anand

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:55:55 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: beautiful & so familiar (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:50:01 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Thanks mum and gerry
Message:
Thanks for your kind words.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:50:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Beautifully stated, Richard.
Message:
I wish all the premies could see and read this.
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:28:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: not so-hung anymore?
Message:
Damn! So, it's true then that it shrivels as we age?

But seriously, won't you put this post up as part one of your Journey? I'm sure a lot of old-time premies reading EPO will immediately relate to it. I sure did. Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:54:52 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: not so-hung anymore?
Message:
Didn't you hear Pat? There was a big study done proving a corallation between squeezing your eyeballs and shrinking member. Let this be a warning to all serious techniquers.

Richard who obviously practiced way too much.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:07:22 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I never squeezed my balls, Richard...
Message:
.....I mean eyeballs. Never liked pain being such a pleasure seeking old hippie. I guess that's why I'm still so hung. :)
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 23:38:55 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: not so-hung anymore?
Message:
AHA! I always THOUGHT there was a reason I was trying to avoid it!

Thank you, Richard. Very nicely done. Your journey was a most enjoyable trip down memory lane. I too love to refer to many periods in the 70's as my own personal magic mystery tour.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 16:29:38 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, It's none of my business, but
Message:
Your fellow San Fransican and our brother under the influence, Jim Boeger is having a bit of a rough time today. Perhaps you could call him and check that he's OK.

This is touchy business and I hope Jim is just blowing off steam.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:17:00 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No problem. Ten inches - and yours?
Message:
But seriously, I will check out Mr Boeger. He was fine last week if a bit pissed at Visions International. He has a seriously warped sense of humor and could just be doing his drama queen hissy fit snit.
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 21:05:32 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Is that flaccid or turgid?
Message:
The guy has gone caps and that's a sign. Of something. A stuck caps key maybe.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 05:04:09 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Both - you know how horse-hung....
Message:
Or it could just be that he is using webTV or.....

I think I better say the rest by email. ;)

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:19:37 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Did he use his hammer?
Message:
splat !!!!
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:51:53 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Did he use his hammer??
Message:
No need for a hammer. Fakiranand could disarm you with that big toothy grin of his. I'm sad that he became so deluded to think he was somehow defending his lord when he almost killed Pat Haley. Another zealot gone bad.

Richard

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 20:37:43 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Seriously Richard
Message:
Enjoyed your story.

You were 24 when 'initiated', I was 22. Good to hear you've still got that innocent, youthful idealism. I guess, in spite of everything , it's still there in us all. Hopefully though we're a bit wiser and less gullible.Good to be reminded not to be TOO cynical though :)

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 13:37:07 (EST)
From: loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: is maharaji happy ?? ??
Message:
I was just reading the thread below - about Him and Amar - and I thought.. wow - what a lot maharaji has going for him in his life.. a family that loves him, a nice house or 5, nice cars,mistresses, nice planes, nice hobbies, thousands of adoring devotees...

It would be difficult not to count your blessings in that situation. Especially when you are son of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj and LOTU too.

I hope he is happy.

The impression I get from 'insiders' and XRated folks is that he is frustrated and blames other people ... for what ?

I think hes doing very nicely for himself thankyou - and if he starts complaining.. people should remind him that he is lucky to have an audience to talk to at all... especially an audience who have given him everything.

Talk about gratitude !

He should feel a lot of gratitude..an EMBARRASSING amount to every single ashram premie.. every single unpaid volunteer.. every donator, every loan maker.. every event atendee

it would be nice if he felt and expressed his gratitude to all those people - rather than just being grateful to God/Sri Maharaji/Life....

Gratititude syphoning is a terrible thing. It drains the sytem...I wasnt grateful to my parents, friends... even to people who helped me.. for years I was only grateful to him... and of my gratitude he took full advantage.. but does he return the thanks ?... no - he passes them on to a part of himself... dead Guru/father worship is a secret psychological vanity which cancels all debts.

How he can feel that he owes Premies nothing tells us quite a bit about his distorted sense of self importance which Premies gladly mythologise and buy into.

He should be weeping with gratitude, for every minute of every hour that somebody has worked to make something ready for him... for every cent and dime given in trust and with love... for every kind word that has ever been spoken about him... be grateful Prem Rawat my friend.

Be humble before us - not before God. Be humble and apologetic and simple and alive- be fucked up and ordinary and needy like the rest of us... make friends with the hurt and the wounded and do not use your indian californian psychosis of caste to seperate yourself one breath from the source of your self worth...

I can fully undrstand if you cant respect premies - I mean if they are dumb enough to buy into this trip - they deserve all they get.. but US, the EX and Post premies.. those of us who are as awake and aware of the game as you are - perhaps more so... I invite you to come.. listen.. learn. A great word 'Evolution' - and we have all surpassed you now. Daily we grow and go into areas of our existance which you cannot even dream of maharaji... where once you were the king.. now you are just one of us. Stand on your own feet... and dare to be perceived.

We wont hurt you. There are angry people here, sure.. but they wouldnt hurt you..

You need to allow our pain to touch your pain, and if your pain was anywhere near as deep and as real as it should be... it will transform you.

We Recent Exes, we Post premies, we survivors, we champions of our hearts... we have been there.. and it is really something to be grateful for.

I am grateful for every morning I wake up. I love my house, my pillows, my bed !

I am grateful for this forum, and for the process of re-integration which I have been going through these past few years. I am grateful for, and love my job, my ambitions and my hopes for the future. I love every little un-impressive detail of my life, the bonsai tree on my desk and the way the light hits it.

Heaven in small things. Heaven in the temporary.

Good Luck Prem Pal... you are in for a hard time.. and I hope you have the guts and courage to seek help when you really need it.

And may you find help in the most unexpected of places.

Loaf

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:09:39 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Re: is maharaji happy ??
Message:
Dear Loaf,
Always nice to read your posts. You have such a glow about your words and I'm sure that translates into who you are in person.
All the best to you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 11:18:43 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Only If money
Message:
If money brings happiness, then yes, he is!
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 10:35:47 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: I am also grateful for my pillows!
Message:
Loafji.
I loved your post. It echoed so many thoughts that have been running through my mind in these last few days.
The thing that really got to me about the Atlanta training video was the condescending way he talked to his most dedicated followers. These are the people who have totally given over their lives. (Some might call it surrendering their power, I happen to believe that's true) but anyway, these people have totally dedicated their lives to him and his work, in the belief, which we all shared, and which he reinforces to this day, that we were/are involved in the noblest and greatest endeavor that life has to offer. Yes, to bring this 'Knowledge', I could quote here his recent address in Nottingham UK, where he basically claims that this is the most 'charitable' thing you can do in this life, and sets himself up as the most humane being on the planet......

In the meantime, because we truly believed that, and sincerely and wholeheartedly devoted ourselves to the mission, and because we believed he was THE 'lord/messiah/satguru/perfectmaster of our time' we gave him the best of everything. HE HAD A BALL, and he continues to this day. All that revisionist crap in Passages about the hardships he suffered in the early days. Pulease!
I had more to say, but I have to go now.
Ps I was very moved by your post
Love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 09:37:27 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Loaf, you are so beautiful
Message:
If I didn't know better, I'd become your devotee ;)

Seriously Loaf, what a beautiful, openhearted, honest and loving person you are. It is soothing and strenghtening to read your posts.

Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:26:22 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Wow ! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:39:28 (EST)
From: P.S.
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Where's the Amar post?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 02:44:18 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: P.S.
Subject: it was the one about flying [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 20:40:55 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Re: is maharaji happy ??
Message:
Good stuff Loaf. Kind-hearted of you.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:53:13 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Loaf, found that very generous & moving [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 17:51:31 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Re: is maharaji happy ??
Message:
Thank You Loaf for this beautiful post.

I just read Richards' post above and it made me laugh and now I read yours and it moved me to tears.

Well I know i'm unstable but i just feel so raw and able to empathise with what i read.

I too have written him recently, prior to my discovering EPO in fact, and asked him if he was sad or lonely. It came to me that he was surrounded by sycophants who never told him the truth and i got a feeling that he must be sad and had no Real friends.

I still feel that's true except now I feel that
a) He surrounded himself with those people.
b) His Ivory Tower mentality has created his situation.
c) He never reponded to my email or anything else i ever sent him. Oh, wait, once in 75 I got an embossed letter saying that m had asked for my letter to be answered with 'the Gift of Satsang'
I had asked him a direct question regarding personal service and the response was a draught from Kissimmee. Very unsatisfying at the time.
d) I no longer feel sorry for him, I am too busy feeling sorry for my poor deluded self.

Always enjoy your posts Loaf
Love Bai.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 16:39:37 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: loaf
Subject: Re: is maharaji happy ??
Message:
Good Luck Prem Pal... you are in for a hard time.. and I hope you have the guts and courage to seek help when you really need it.

---

Loaf

I have been reflecting on the phsyco-dynamanics of being a SatGuru. You above statement really hit home.

As Michael Dettmers said in the past, M really believes he is the the main man. The eventual transition he has to make must be truely unique. Where would he get the assistance you refer to? I shudder to think.

Love
ExP

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:14:03 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Re: is maharaji happy ??
Message:
The eventual transition he has to make must be truely unique. Where would he get the assistance you refer to? I shudder to think.

Well, I would recommend 'recent exes' to Prem. Mind you there's a screening process and they would have to consider his application as they usually do and there's no guarantee they'll accept him. But, knowing exes, they are a soft-hearted bunch, and he'd probably find consolation there.

Just an idea...

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:57:08 (EST)
From: Appreciator of Loaf's Excellence
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: Re: is maharaji happy ??
Message:
Brilliant post, Loaf, absolutely brilliant. Very very satisfying. Thank you so much for opening up your heart and sharing it with us.

What an amazing contrast between the maturity and compassion of your post and the childish and blatantly immature drivel just below by: 'From LIG: The CAT SPEAKS'. Says an awful lot about the company both posters keep, doesn't it?

Nice job, Loaf. Love you, guy. - Steve Mueller

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:10:42 (EST)
From: suchabananaabananaabananaabananaabanana
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: yeah, m. should be doing da bowing/foot-kissing!
Message:
talk about gwatitude!!!

All the exes and premies could line up - bend over, drop trousers/pants [whatever], and maharaji should go one-by-one down the line, on his doggie hands and knees, and kiss each person's bum -- in gratitude.

Then, he should apologise to everyone and accept personal accountability for the falsehood and elephant dung he put everyone through over the years, renounce gurujism forever, and give up using ALL the Seva Corp. toys and real estate to an independently-administered trust fund [with ex-premies on its board of directors] to help any and all legit cult abuse victims [physical, psychological, etc.] with counselling, etc.

The new non-profit trust could also provide public information about the dangers of mistakenly turning one's life over [i.e. surrendering] to another human being in an unequal spiritual relationship. [i.e. Remember how he said, "Give ME the reins of your life," etc. and "I will give you peace"?!] Yeah - for thousands of years, feudal Megalomaniacal Dictators of all ilk have worked that very same angle, in various forms -- to selfishly empower themselves by insidiously entrapping others -- at the expense and to the detriment of those trusting human beings.

btw, could you imagine being the shrink [psychiatrist] treating maha in therapy?!

upon reflection, maha probably left the marriage counselling - because it was getting Way too confronting -- just touching the tip of the iceberg of his own deep phobias, traumas, and pathological delusional illness.

peas and lentils,

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 15:50:39 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: You tell him. Swami
Message:
I got your email but, when I replied, my email to you got bounced again.
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 18:22:00 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: must be my doorman; you got i.d.?
Message:
I'll tell our ashram's systems analyst to check the new security software and let you in. [We've been monitoring for trolls and viruses lately.]

peas and banana boboti with lentils,

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 09:11:02 (EST)
From: Vick
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: must be my doorman; you got i.d.?
Message:
Such, would you read my and Bai's above posts and be able to tell if we have some monkey business going on with computer hacking?
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 19:32:59 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: must be my doorman; you got i.d.?
Message:
I'll try again.

Putting a new menu on-line next week.

Piesang Garong. :)

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:41:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: loaf
Subject: You did it again, Loafie!
Message:
Another bloody brilliant post. Thanks.
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