Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 17, 2002 To: Jan 23, 2002 Page: 5 of: 5


Peg -:- How did I believe those lies. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:38:22 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Excellent, Peg -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:35:28 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Some of you were smarter. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:13:00 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Great post ........ but -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:57:38 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Re: Great post ........ but -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 04:10:31 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Hi Jim, I agree with you [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:18:48 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Lied to premies v. Premie liars/Inner Circle -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:27:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Inside Edition -:- Re: Lied to premies v. Premie liars/Inner Circle -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 00:34:16 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Marvelous Peg absolutly marvelous nt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:43:30 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Great Post, Peg, all 3 times! -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:27:37 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Thanks John first time i've copied in. [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:44:07 (EST)
__ michael donner -:- wonderful post, nt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:04:16 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Re: How did I believe those lies. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:21:41 (EST)

ExP -:- Belkis .... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:20:57 (EST)
__ livia dowte -:- Re: Belkis .... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:58:59 (EST)
__ __ Tami -:- Devine sex -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:17:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Devine sex -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:29:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tami -:- Not Belcis, MI -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 15:21:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ ExP -:- Re: Not Belcis, MI -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 15:25:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Assumptions and boob jobs. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 15:34:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami -:- Re: Assumptions and boob jobs. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:05:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Back from the brink. -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 05:53:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExP -:- Re: Assumptions and boob jobs. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:16:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sallam -:- ya bunch of morons -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 09:35:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Put the light out. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:30:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Put the light out. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:20:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ me -:- Re: Put the light out. -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 14:12:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Me -:- Re: Put the light out. -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 14:14:27 (EST)

The Maharaji of Malibu's -:- #2 son WILL inherit family BIZ -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:09:44 (EST)
__ Yeah -:- It reads -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:36:42 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Re: #2 son WILL inherit family BIZ -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:34:56 (EST)
__ Bryn -:- M and King Lear -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:47:54 (EST)
__ Julian -:- Well spotted -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:28:34 (EST)

Livia Dowte -:- doubt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:39:54 (EST)
__ Mirror -:- Re: doubt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:31:48 (EST)
__ __ livia dowte -:- Re: doubt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:51:40 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- i heard him say it in 1985 -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:57:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Rejoice Programs???? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:50:18 (EST)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: doubt -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:51:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- The 5 Commandments (and more!) -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:00:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Can't possibly be right CQ -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 19:43:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The only possible conclusion - -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 06:20:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- making it up as they go along! -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:11:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- rent that Life of Brian movie, Pat - -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 12:55:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- okay okay, don't nag. I will [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:10:11 (EST)

suchabanana -:- Enjoying life? Fax Mitch Ditkoff! -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:50:30 (EST)
__ such -:- guess who wrote this one? for real: -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:34:23 (EST)

Salam -:- just wondering -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:39:13 (EST)
__ salsa -:- Re: just wondering -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:49:21 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Salam you idiot OT -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:58:54 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Jethro (OT) -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 05:57:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Anty, read the whole thread NT -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 06:10:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I read it after Jeth'. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:24:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Anty, read the whole thread NT -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 10:54:04 (EST)
__ __ Salam -:- Oh no -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:54:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Salam I was not threatening you -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 22:05:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Salam I was not threatening you -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 22:19:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- You got in one NT -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 22:26:49 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Give the guy a break, Jethro -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:02:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- I know that Pat but -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:05:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Jethro, THAT's unreasonable -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:16:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I don 't agree -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:37:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Where'd you get that from? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:27:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: No, Jethro, THAT's unreasonable -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:52:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know that too, Jethro........ -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:21:07 (EST)
__ gerry -:- I don't think so, Salam -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:07:56 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- OK -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 23:18:42 (EST)

Marianne -:- Sympathy for the devil? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:33:51 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- The insensitive, heartless, vulture -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:49:38 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Sympathy for the devil?????? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:14:30 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Best of Forum -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:07:06 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Cynthia's response to Sympathy for the devil?? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:13:05 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- The triangle is the answer -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:36:12 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Re: Sympathy for the devil? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 22:46:39 (EST)

OTS -:- Jagdeo's Heavy Hitting Satsang -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:18:09 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- What was Jagdeo's Reaction? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:42:57 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Day Oh, Jag Day Oh - L.O.L. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:54:26 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- lenny! omigod, lenny... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:31:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- 401 - And Bill Rowe's enchiladas -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:49:04 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Off The Scale...Great Post(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:32:14 (EST)
__ Voyeur -:- Re: Jagdeo's Heavy Hitting Satsang -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:32:19 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Bestest of Forum -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:30:45 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Keep it coming, OTS -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:59:06 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- that was a beaut, OTS -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:50:26 (EST)

gerry-Alright then it's settled -:- Catweasel is persona non grata -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:32:29 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: Catweasel is persona non grata -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 09:30:46 (EST)
__ janet -:- i vote yes [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:40:33 (EST)
__ Marshall -:- but, what about..... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:20:15 (EST)
__ __ Francesca :~) -:- Marshall - He makes the exes look bad -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:08:34 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- You are right, Francesca -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:25:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Re: You are right, Francesca -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:41:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- then and now -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:06:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- Maybe we could have Worst of Forum? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:52:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I already suggested that, seriously -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:38:03 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- That's true, marshall -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:50:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: What about his point? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:20:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: What about his point? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:14:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: What about his point? -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 08:01:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I tried that on Forum 5 -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 09:10:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Don't Feed the Beast... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:25:39 (EST)
__ __ __ zelda -:- Re: That's true, marshall -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:57:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- LOL! If only... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:21:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Catweasel on Display?? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:43:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- or 'look what the cat brought in'? (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:39:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: Catweasel on Display? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:26:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- When EPO is back up again -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:26:09 (EST)

Francesca :~) -:- RecentExes: local community news? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:20:26 (EST)
__ Sulla -:- Re:My premie friend sent or send? me this one. -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:32:39 (EST)
__ __ Francesca :~) -:- Thanks Sulla -- the news must not be ... -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:59:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: My pleasure -:- Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 08:06:50 (EST)
__ MISSY -:- Re: RecentExes: local community news? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 16:19:59 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Quota for Propagation??? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 16:41:59 (EST)
__ ExP -:- Re: RecentExes: local community news? -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:49:07 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- Thanks -- Pat's got it -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:17:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Teletubby, ha ha -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:34:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Maria -:- Francesca could you email me, ta! -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:56:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Maria -- e-mailed you yesterday -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:45:03 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Through the grapevine... -:- Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:57:32 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- hey pat, would you know -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:51:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- The Hindi word for hate -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:17:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ John G -:- Here's an interesting one -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:17:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- green with jealousy? -:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:27:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:-
-:- Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:31:56 (EST)


Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:38:22 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: How did I believe those lies.
Message:
I have been wondering more and more how I managed to live with all the weird and inconsistent beliefs I subscribed to so recently. I was a liar in so many ways when I was a premie. I was a liar in that I never questioned the party line.

I was there in the days when he openly said guru is greater than god, give me the reins of your life etc.

In those early days it was easy to believe for me I think it's possible he even believed it himself.. It was easy to believe because it was reinforced constantly by gopi-chat in the day, large pictures on every wall, a huge investment in that almost everything I did was either to get closer to m inside or to serve his holey mission, topped off with 3hrs of mutual brainwashing and an hour or two of exhausted nodding under a blanket every night. In those days I wouldn't call myself a liar just brainwashed and deluded. And I can forgive myself for that.. I was young and vulnerable and a bit above myself. One of the chosen few with a mission to bring peace to the world was something to be.

But in 1975 I left that factory farm environment and had my first real doubts. This is where I first started to lie to myself.

And when the mutual brainwashing was halted I thought we were lucky, I had recognized that some of my fellow devotees would bullshit a bit and surely it would be so beneficial just to hear the pure words of the master and look at his glorious form. (I know, I know!)

But slowly I grew up and began to mix in the wider world (before my kids went to school I don't think I knew anyone that wasn't a premie). I remember well in about 1984 wanting to ask Maharaji if he was the only way. I could see the same belief in followers of other religions and cults. I never asked him.. I used to write an affirmation…. 'I am now ready to fearlessly examine my relation with Maharaji' Well I may have been ready!!! Here the lying escalated. I hardly talked about Maharaji after this, not even to my children. (the mother's instinct won through). I adjusted my beliefs gradually to enable me to continue to be a premie.

Lie number one; I continued to persuade myself I loved Maharaji. I left the ashram in 1975, I had fallen in love with a real person, people like Saphalanand were smoking dope and such with some of the ashram premies. This was in London. I was in what Glen W called a non-satsang ashram there was more room to think and desire than in the previous ashrams I'd been in. There was some indecision about whether we would both leave but I left anyway and remember saying 'I don't belong here I don't love Maharaji anymore.' I went to Edinburgh, a place I had loved before K, I visited the ashram there and being an outsider for the first time in years saw a really depressed and unfriendly group of people, they didn't talk to each other. The next year for me was very hard emotionally, I was in a right state but blamed it on leaving the ashram and my own and my new partners (he did leave) failings. Surrounded by premies and satsang, I did not pursue my doubts but drowned them in SS&M and as much D as we could afford.

Lie number two. I continued to tell myself, secretly inside, that Maharaji was in some way divine. This was a lie because, if I had truly followed through and examined the doubt about 'only way' I would have probably ended up realizing more. The lie was that I just told myself it would all be made clear at the right time M was my divine enlightened master and knew best. I let this question rest. It made me feel uncomfortable whenever I met a devotee of Rajneesh or Babaji or a spiritual Christian, I never met them with a similar devotional fervor which, looking back was because I didn't honestly believe it anymore, I was lying.

Lie number three; I continued to pay lip service to Knowledge as the manifestation of God within. Since 1979 I had my third child and stopped regular meditation. I realised that what I had always thought was nectar was in fact the discharge of electricity between gold and mercury in my mouth. Nothing had really changed in my meditation since I first started practicing….I did often enjoy it when I did it, and occasionally experienced lovely out of body floating sensations and euphoria, but NOTHING that I could remotely say with any sort of certainty was an experience of god within (whatever that may be) or was nearly as mind blowing as LSD. It did not necessarily make anything better for me when I did it, although I worried about becoming a rotting cabbage at first. Then in the eighties I tried rebirthing (a breathing technique) and had a much more powerful and reliable experience with this. I justified it by saying that rebirthing cleared the way for the experience of knowledge… but I didn't even practice those famous techniques. I would tend to attribute any good feeling to my sporadic practicing of the knowledge and being a (sshh!) devotee of the perfect master. This was not rational and did me no good at all. I was lying.

There are probably loads more and there is definitely the one about his beautiful form.( I always wished he had nice eyes and why was he so fat.) I just wanted to have a go at working things out on paper like people do here,. Quite enjoyed it but it took me sooo long!

Peg

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:35:28 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Excellent, Peg
Message:
Perhaps that's the story for many of us non-ashram fringe premies who flirted with our minds. I sure know that I forced myself to love the gooroo against my instincts right from the get go. Mostly I faked my faith in him and hyped up my devotion out of fear, guilt and superstition.

JHB said something below about those long term doubts probably making it easier to finally leave. They just kept getting louder and louder until I could no longer ignore them. I think the final straw was when rawat put up his revisionist website. It became obvious that he was the liar.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:13:00 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Some of you were smarter.
Message:
Okay, a lot of you were smarter. I can't believe I never saw through any of this. Honestly, if it weren't for EPO I'd still be trying to suffer through videos and broadcasts and events, and never have known
how sweet it really is to feel my life again, free of the shackles of practicing knowledge and devotion to one who is the ultimate lie, the ultimate living lie.

No matter how impatient you feel about yourself, it can never ever compare to the lies that we were force fed. You strike me as an incredibly honest person. Maybe that's why this seems so glaringly obvious to you now. I guess we all need kindness towards ourselves. We gave it to Maharaji and he didn't deserve it.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:57:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Great post ........ but
Message:
Peg,

The only caveat I have about calling that self-deception 'lying' was that we were set up specifically to doubt our own bullshit-detector. Yes, we all lied about the Emperor's New Clothes but we'd accepted a directive of No Doubt / Self-Doubt that made it impossible for us to even listen to ourselves. So 'lying' seems a little harsh to me. Somehow, though, the game's changed to a point where I think it is a fair term for what premies do now as they try to cope with the truth about M as it's surfaced. And no, I'm not just saying that because I'm now on the comfortable side of that moral quagmire. I just think that the game's evolved to that level where protecting M now, in the face of all the evidence against him, much of if coming from M himself of course, is indeed indefensible lying.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 04:10:31 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Great post ........ but
Message:
Jim, looking at my post again I agree it is perhaps a bit harsh. I do think I was dishonest, but in a way that is very common to all people and as you say, understandable in the way we were programmed.

It seems so transparently obviously a useless cult to me now and I can see the points which could have lead me to leave so much earlier.

I am not saying my life was wasted, by the way. Just the old wisdom in hindsight I suppose.

peg

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:18:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Jim, I agree with you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:27:57 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: Kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Jim
Subject: Lied to premies v. Premie liars/Inner Circle
Message:
Jim, agreed that it is a lot harder to lie to oneself these days, but I also think there is a division among premies. There are the premie 'average-Joes' who I think are the ones leaving in droves these days, partly because they can no longer afford to be in that very expensive cult, and then there are the 'inner circle' crowd. The people from the Passages video were mostly from that crowd.

Plus, it was very clear Passages was for the purpose of indoctrinating the existing, plebian, premies into the re-write of history that Maharaji wants to put out, mouthed by the inner circle gang.

Inside Edition, down below, said the following, which I think is very true and very important, especially when we think about who did CAC, who hacked the EPO site, and who might do just about anything to protect Maharaji's big ass.

The Malibu inner circle (Gallway, Pascotto brothers, Bonthous, etc) as well as the UK branch (Whittaker, Collier, Greaves, etc)
obviously will say and do ANYTHING to please their Lord. How can there be anything wrong with divine deception if you are following direct agya? If they don't, they risk their ultimate nightmare - pissing off the Lord, and being banished. Just ask Bonthous what that feels like!

This is also, in my opinion, what makes them all so incredibly dangerous.

I think this is very perceptive, and very true.

BTW -- great post Peg. It's that kind of analysis that sets you free.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 00:34:16 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Lied to premies v. Premie liars/Inner Circle
Message:
Thanks, Joe.
I have a difficult time remembering the PAM's perspective, having been out of Rawat's grasp for some time. It really is like speaking with aliens to talk to these guys. They are the closest disciples of the living lord, and anything and everything is totally justified in his service. That is quite dangerous, to say the least.

I really get a kick out of the fact that the big-shot PAMs get copied on all the posts here that mention them by name by the official EV monitor (unless that has been discontinued by recent budget cuts, but I doubt it).
I am sure you also know that you won't hear from Mrs. Pascotto in response to your letter; premies who are known to post here are considered automatically out-of-the-club.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:43:30 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Marvelous Peg absolutly marvelous nt
Message:
t
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:27:37 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Great Post, Peg, all 3 times!
Message:
Great post. I was also lying to myself for so long, and I think I knew it, which was why it was realtively easy for me to exit. The main feeling was one of relief that I don't have to lie anymore or believe such rubbish.

BTW, I removed the two extra copies of your post:-)

John the Forum Elf assistant number 2 (part-time)

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:44:07 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks John first time i've copied in. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:04:16 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: wonderful post, nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:21:41 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: How did I believe those lies.
Message:
Peg

Beautiful post. I was especially caught by the words, as below, as it reinforces the constant need to love oneself and not doubt one's own thoughts.

---
-
And I can forgive myself for that.. I was young and vulnerable and a bit above myself. One of the chosen few with a mission to bring peace to the world was something to be.

---
-

You may wish to edit your message - large chunks seems to be repeated.

Love
ExP

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:20:57 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Belkis ....
Message:
Somewhere down below someone posted this extract.

---

The last one I receive from my premie friend was this one:

'You are most warmly invited to an Introductory Video Event at the
Intercontinental Hotel, located in downtown Miami, Mezzanine Theater, 100
Chopin Plaza, on Sunday, January 20, at 6:00 PM.

Belkis will speak at this event.

---
--

Now I sure remember Belkis very well (sister of Banu who's married to Bobby Henry, in turn cook extroadinaire to the Goo).

When Belkis gave satsang at the Palace of Peace, the audience was especially attentive - mostly the male members of the audience .. -)

Now I wonder if.... - no can't be true. Anyway she would never tell. 8)

memories ...

ExP

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:58:59 (EST)
From: livia dowte
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Re: Belkis ....
Message:
Er....I don't get you. You wonder what? (I'm probably slow on the uptake)
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:17:15 (EST)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: livia dowte
Subject: Devine sex
Message:
Hee wundirs if Mirage fuked her. Rite?

Mirage sed he wud fuk mi if I got a bube job and died mi hare blond. So I did.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:29:54 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Tami
Subject: Re: Devine sex
Message:
You're saying Belkis dyed her hair blonde and go a boob job??? Are you kidding???? Or am I being obtuse again...

With love, Livia

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 15:21:35 (EST)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Not Belcis, MI
Message:
Livya, I wuz talking abut MI, not Belcis! HAHAHHAHAHA.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 15:25:52 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: None
To: Tami
Subject: Re: Not Belcis, MI
Message:
Tami

Describe the scene wud ya please my darling?

What sort of 'mood' music is chosen, low light conditions, snacks, drink choice - you know all the stuff that preludes great events.

Love to know

ExP

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 15:34:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Assumptions and boob jobs.
Message:
Tami

Describe the scene wud ya please my darling?

What sort of 'mood' music is chosen, low light conditions, snacks, drink choice - you know all the stuff that preludes great events.

Love to know

ExP


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ExP,

Aren't you making a big assumption here? Tami only said she dyed her hair and had a boob job. And because we're Gentlemen, we won't ask what happened next will we?

Anth, so what happened after you had a boob job and dyed your hair Tami?

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:05:48 (EST)
From: Tami
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Assumptions and boob jobs.
Message:
Boy, yu are sur nozi! HAHAHAHA

At the evint at Univirsil Studioz I asked Mirage if he wud fuk mi if I died mi hare blond. Hee sed yes, if I got a bube job. I wuz blist out. So I did, but wen I went to the residense the bastirds wud not let mi in. So I sent a letter to Mirage with a pictir uv mi hare and mi bubes.

I wil let you no wat happins. I hope it iz sune. Luk out Monica! HAHAHA, HAHAHAHA

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 05:53:11 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tami
Subject: Back from the brink.
Message:
Boy, yu are sur nozi! HAHAHAHA

At the evint at Univirsil Studioz I asked Mirage if he wud fuk mi if I died mi hare blond. Hee sed yes, if I got a bube job. I wuz blist out. So I did, but wen I went to the residense the bastirds wud not let mi in. So I sent a letter to Mirage with a pictir uv mi hare and mi bubes.

I wil let you no wat happins. I hope it iz sune. Luk out Monica! HAHAHA, HAHAHAHA


---

Tami,

I think life was kind to you when the stormtroopers didn't let you in. You may have had a nasty experience, which could have left you emmotionally scarred for life.

You should have the bags of silicon removed, and send them to the Captain through the post, with a note to say he specifically requested them.

Anth who had a temporary tattoo once, but it came off in the bath.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:16:54 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: None
To: Tami
Subject: Re: Assumptions and boob jobs.
Message:
Tami

Nozi - you bet!

Please dear Gopi - give us a link to the pictir. Just fir the records ya understand?!

Love
ExP

oops my spil cheker also now sems brocen

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 09:35:59 (EST)
From: sallam
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: ya bunch of morons
Message:
low life deviet wankers ex brain deads. What is this shit serving? You buncha maggots.

I feel really offended to read this crap and am quite a stincky bastards. Belkis may be working for the guru, she maybe brainwashed, but I did happen to know her personally. I stayed with her and her family for few months and as a premie she will outweight all of you turds. If I was gerry, I will delete all this bullshit.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:30:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: sallam
Subject: Put the light out.
Message:
Go away. Leave me alone. I wasn't talking to you. Bugger off.

Anth mind you own business.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:20:05 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Put the light out.
Message:
Anyone ever tell you you're a nutcase ? ;) :)
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 14:12:34 (EST)
From: me
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Put the light out.
Message:
:) ;) .) ') ') `) ~) *)
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 14:14:27 (EST)
From: Me
Email: None
To: me
Subject: Re: Put the light out.
Message:
:) ;) ~) /) \) ^) @) #)

+)-)_)=)

') ") !) $) %) &)

<) >)

?) /) |) ()

[) {) }) ])

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:09:44 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Email: None
To: All
Subject: #2 son WILL inherit family BIZ
Message:
In the link here(that ExP found, see below), I just put in the last name of rawat in the search engine. So, I also came up with # 2 son, Amar being a licensed pilot.

If I'm not mistaken, the ability to fly is a major spec for becoming the CEO/COO of the vast rawat empire. Now, the cynics might say he flies cuz it's fun but I'm old school and still believe 'not a fucking leaf moves'. You understand what I'm saying here! Picking the youngest to take over kinda legitimizes Prem's Satguruship.

This could even happen soon with Prem becoming The Maharaji of Malibu Emeritus.

Hey Amar! Suggestion! Find a good podiatrist now!
[ The Flying Guru of Malibu ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:36:42 (EST)
From: Yeah
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Subject: It reads
Message:
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi?pass=42701915&ref=-&mtd=41&cgi=%2Fcgi-bin%2Fnph-search_namd&var=9&buf=66&src=_landings%2Fpages%2Fsearch_namd.html&1=rawat&2=amar&5=malibu&6=CA&7=&9=&8=usa&10=&13=&14=&16=&17=&infieldlogic18=OR&infieldlogic19=OR&data_type=HTML&return=SCREEN_RET&fullsearch=NO&max_ret=10&start_ret=1

Pilots Database Search Result

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Name : RAWAT, AMAR PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Oct, 2001
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration : Oct, 2004
Pilot Certificates : Student Pilot

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:34:56 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Subject: Re: #2 son WILL inherit family BIZ
Message:
MoM

Well spotted! Silly me in being too specific and inserting 'Prem'.

Actually I was reflecting on the matter of health (see way below now) and wondering who will inherit EV and the Goo's mission. Various names came to mind, Valerio, Julian West, George Blodwell (hey his first mahatma would be his hairdresser no doubt!). But of course the Goo will and should nominate Amar - hey why break with tradition - keep it in the family ())

Although I do wonder (him being a Westernized Satguru and all that)if the female line will be passed over. Daya, what do you think? :p

I see my old mate SatPal of Dehra Dun seems to have already nominated Shri Shradhey Ji Maharaj (his oldest son). Did you ever catch the guy giving satsang? Click on the Real Audio link above (I hope the link works ok - it did not last night). Anyway it is a great rib tickler - do all the Rawat coven have to have such high pitched voices? :(

ExP
[ Second nomination for future SatGooRoo? ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:47:54 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Subject: M and King Lear
Message:
I think he is going to do a Lear. An insecure old despot, short on any genuine reflection from his subjects, setting up hoops for his beloved ones to jump through to reassure himself.I hope there is someone there with a video camera when he gets to the 'Heath' bit!

Putting it like that I have made myself feel a twinge of affection for the old bastard! I shall stop now.
love Bryn

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:28:34 (EST)
From: Julian
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Subject: Well spotted
Message:
Pilots Database Search Result

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Name : RAWAT, AMAR PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Oct, 2001
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration : Oct, 2004
Pilot Certificates : Student Pilot


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Name : RAWAT, PREM PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Aug, 2001
Class of Medical : 1
Expiration : Feb, 2002
Pilot Certificates : Airline Transport Pilot
Airplane Multiengine Land
Rotorcraft Helicopter (Commercial Pilot)
Instrument Helicopter (Commercial Pilot)
Glider (Commercial Pilot)

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:39:54 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: All
Subject: doubt
Message:
My favourite subject again. Does anybody know when the five commandments stopped being given out at Knowledge sessions? I had no idea until I read it here. This must mean that the newer premies aren't being commanded to leave no room for doubt in their minds. Does anyone think that this commandment has made it particularly difficult for old premies to question? And that newer premies can drift off more easily without fear?
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 08:31:48 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: doubt
Message:
What are the five commendments? I never heard of that?
I received K in 1982 and only had to promise never to reveal the techniques. I don't remember promising anything else?

Mirror

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 09:51:40 (EST)
From: livia dowte
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: doubt
Message:
They were: leave no room for doubt in your mind, constantly meditate and remember holy name, do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today, never delay in attending satsang, always have faith in God. Although not necessarily in that order.

'Constantly meditate and remember holy name' became an awkward one presumably when holy name wasn't called holy name any more, and when Maharaji suddenly told us we didn't need to do the renamed '3rd technique' constantly any more. No big deal about it, it was suddenly dropped. Consequently thousands of premies who had for years been feverishly trying to block out their thoughts all day, or feeling guilty because they weren't bothering, found themselves being allowed to think all day again, without any explanation from on high. Not that I remember anyway. Does anybody know when this change took place and how?

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:57:18 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: livia dowte
Subject: i heard him say it in 1985
Message:
i was living in denver and he called a personal Knowledge review, up in a ski resort that was in its summertime off season. Snowmass , colorado.
the sectioned the vast conference room space into four separate chambers so he could move from room to room, demonstrating the techniques with their new names by number, one at a time, in the same order as they were given in the original K sessions of the 70's. He would show the crowd in one room, walk around the floor, personally studying each person as the whole room sat doing the technique and meditating, then satisfied, he would go thru the door to the next chamber, and do it again there for that group, while leaving the room he just showed, to meditate on that technique for an hour, until he had worked with all four rooms, then would return to room one and go on to the next technique the same way.

at the end of the whole day, they pushed back the walls and he took genuine questions from the entire gathering and answered them as minutely as he could. and questions abounded, along with new confusions, because he was making it unmistakeable that things we had been doing religiously since his first footfall on our soil, were no longer to be pursued.
i heard these things 'doniac schweiss', from his lips to my ears:

-don't do the nectar technique all day anymore. just do it during the last quarter of meditation
-don't use barogans anymore. just hold up your arms till they get tired, then relax them and keep concentrating on the technique without using them until you can raise them again and resume.
-don't use earplugs anymore. get rid of them. don't use em when you meditate and stop wearing them all day to block out the world.
-don't be dogged about trying to meditate first thing upon waking and last thing at night. only meditate when you're fully awake, alert and all there. set a regular time when you will be most attentive and can really give yourself to it and become fully absorbed
-stop attempting to 'remember holy name' every waking minute. when you have to give your attention to your external, practical life, do it with your whole attention. when you turn inwards for meditatin, do it completely. stop trying to amalgamate the two at once.
-stop meditating under a blanket, sheet or other covering device. just do it somewhere private and quiet and undistracted so that you won't be disturbed or reveal the techniques to others who don't have them.
- don't go stabbing your fingers forcibly into any part of your body, eyes nor ears, in a misguided attempt to squeeze more out of the technique. when you touch finger to skin, lay it on gently, onl for the purpose of comfortably directing your attention to that area.
-when you do the first(light) technique, start at the outer corners of your closed eyelids and softly draw your fingertips across your closed lashes until you arrive at the depressions either side of the bridge of your nose, and rest them there, barely perceptibly. do not keep them at the outer corners, nor rest them or press directly atop your eyeballs beneath your closed lids .
-when doing the second(music) technique, do not force your thumbtips inside your ear canals like putting a cork stopper back in a bottle. merely lay them over your ear canals with the fleshy pad of your thumb, more like sealing a peg hole with chewing gum or taping it over. [this issue, he personally remonstrated in answer to ME, DIRECTLY, when i raised my hand and he called on me, and i complained that i couldnt get my thumbs to fit my ears , doing it the new way, since i'd gotten totally habituated to doing it the old way i had been doing it for 12 or more years.]
-he was emphatic about people not straining,stretching, cutting or contorting their tongues, in vain effort to put them back and up behind their noses. He repeatedly urged us to just rest the tongue, contracted short, inside our closed mouth, against our upper palate, and not worry about it further.
-he told us he didn't care what diet we ate or didn't, whether we had sex or not, smoked or not, that all he was there to do was to make sure we were doing these four techniques correctly and were doing them because we genuinely wanted to, when we wanted to.
and i remember a lot of people wandering around confused afterwards, dazed and unsure, because things they had come to rely on as second nature they had now been specifically ordered to stop doing anymore.

certain 'super devotees' like dennis murpy, voiced clear bewilderment at the non value of things he and we had been striving for since day one--everything from ashrams to premie houses to satsang to celibacy to barogans to vegetarianism to all day holy name and nectar to the regimented schedule to smoking and drinking. a goodly number of attendees felt bereft, once cut off from their long ingrained habits and disciplines. in some ways, they lost their entire identities that day, were separated from everything they had spent years practicing, believing it qualified them as devotees, and were set adrift without knowing or understanding what they were to do next, nor knowing how to reconcile what they had been doing so diligently from the first time they heard about maharaji and knowledge.

i was among those who heard all this and after long consideration, decided screw it, I'm going to do it the way i like to. if not doing it the old way can be dropped and changed in a day, with no consequences, than the changes can't mean a thing. he could change them back just as arbitrarily. so I'm gonna keep right on doing what i like.
and i still have my barogan, and earplugs, and meditation shawls, and i squeeze my eyes however i feel like, and I always got the nectar completely unrelated to how or whether i was doing the technique at all, and since his response to my ear canal query/complaint was unhelpful to my physiognamy, I persisted in doing it the way i liked--tips corked inwards.

I now know it didnt make a damned bit of difference how i might put my fingers.

but i first heard all these dispenings at the personal snowmass knowledge correction conference. it was somewhere between 85 and 87, in mid summer.

and obviously, by these orders, he recognizably did away with
'constantly meditate and remember the Holy name'
as well as
'never delay in attending satsang'
and he took a new, looser tack towards the
'always have faith in GOD'
and
'do not put off tommorrow what you can do today'.

insofar as doubt, i heard him say, himself, 'if you have any doubts, then go and make sure! find out!make sure all of your questions have been answered!'

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:50:18 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Rejoice Programs????
Message:
Janet,

Thanks for that detailed summary. In the Passages video, they talk about the 'Rejoice' programs Maharaji did in 1987, when he changed everything, espcially that people only needed to do 15 minutes on each technique. The video makes a big deal about how this ended all the Hindu concepts, etc.

You said:

certain 'super devotees' like dennis murpy, voiced clear bewilderment at the non value of things he and we had been striving for since day one--everything from ashrams to premie houses to satsang to celibacy to barogans to vegetarianism to all day holy name and nectar to the regimented schedule to smoking and drinking. a goodly number of attendees felt bereft, once cut off from their long ingrained habits and disciplines. in some ways, they lost their entire identities that day, were separated from everything they had spent years practicing, believing it qualified them as devotees, and were set adrift without knowing or understanding what they were to do next, nor knowing how to reconcile what they had been doing so diligently from the first time they heard about maharaji and knowledge.

I have a slightly different take on this. I'm not so sure these people were all that attached to the way they had done things and felt lost without them (this is the Passages theory), but rather the bewilderment might have been as to why it was really necessary to do those things for years, if they can just be wiped out by Maharaji as if they had been unnecessary, irrelevent mistakes all along, and if they were, why did he have us do them for 15 years?

This would be especially true of the more unpleasant things or things that required a lot of sacrifice for many people like celibacy, the ashram, vegetarianism, the maddening attempt to remember holy name all day long, attending deadly boring nightly satsang, giving up dope (Maharaji had said it was IMPOSSIBLE to meditate if you did, etc.)

I doubt people cared that much regarding these largely superficial changes in the techniques. It was probably more questioning what kind of a 'master' they had who had screwed up things so badly for so long, telling his devotees to make all kinds of sacrifices to do what he said, and then, on a dime, throw them all out and say it was stupid to have ever done those things in the first place, after years of apparently unnecessary pain and sacrifice to do them all that time. I think that's why they were upset, not because they LIKED being celibate, poor, vegetarian, or fighting with their minds all the time.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 11:51:09 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: livia dowte
Subject: Re: doubt
Message:
Hi Liv
I don't know when the change took place but I do remember the mindfuck of trying not to think and the guilt when you failed. Hellfire! the things he put people through. The slimy rotten toe rag
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:00:56 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: The 5 Commandments (and more!)
Message:
Here's an eye-opener for Mirror (and for me too - and I was an ashram premie!)

BTW, just click on the link above and scroll down to Part 3, item A9 for the 'famous' 5 Commandments.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:074X9e-Y1CwC:www.ex-premie.org/papers/Amanual.htm+&hl=en
[ The Code of the Renunciate Order of Divine Light Mission ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 19:43:02 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Can't possibly be right CQ
Message:
The Ashram manual states

'The Ashram policy is determined by Guru Maharaj Ji. The Ashram Supervisor is directly responsible to Guru Maharaj Ji for the maintenance of every aspect of ashram life'.

Wait a goddamn minute, we all know Guru Maharaji (Maharaji) was not involved in any of this stuff. It was just our crazy trip....we OVERSTATED his role. That's what Glen et al tell us. They can't possibly be lying.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 06:20:12 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: The only possible conclusion -
Message:
Well spotted, Dermot!T

The only possible conclusion has to be that Glen Whittaker and the rest of EV's would-be revisionists (including the Goo, of course) are ...

making it up as they go along!

That quote you found is a smoking gun if ever I saw one.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 14:11:20 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: making it up as they go along!
Message:
According to cult apocrypha, the Five Commandments were written on a paper napkin aboard one of the Boeings headed for India in 72.

They're winging it all right.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 12:55:43 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: rent that Life of Brian movie, Pat -
Message:
- it'll all start to make sense then!
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:10:11 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: okay okay, don't nag. I will [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:50:30 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: Bambi@peroxide.com
To: All
Subject: Enjoying life? Fax Mitch Ditkoff!
Message:
Mitch Ditkoff:

tele/fax: 914-679-1068

[or better yet, email a submission at the site itself! http://www.enjoyinglife.org/]

like, send him a juicy poem, or something...

i.e.: A Blonde Devotee's Prayer

I think I shall never see anything as lovely on a tv,
as your radiant golden face beaming out at me,
in a hushed and darkened room, my wretched heart beats fast -- boom-boom, boom-boom,
an earnest plea, my Lord and Perfect Master, please be gentle and real for me.

When I feel an emptyness inside,
Maharaji's love fills me up and satisfies
my space.
Please take me for a ride, oh Master,
and fulfill that aching place.

Oh, please, my perfect lover, completely fill me up
with the divine juices of your extended loving cup
I pant with eager anticipation,
to share The Master's propagation
and fill this inner vacuum with the honey of elation.

Then, maybe I can make a better donation
'cause I probably don't even need that two-week vacation

and please accept this small estate (which surely I won't need)
for you know how to spend it,
you who have no greed

and nip me with the niblet of your instructive master's stick
I feel excitement from the sting now,
oh - be quick, be quick!

this pathetic creature begs for more
I can't get enough of your love
yet you shower me with golden streams
from that throne of yours above

I long to kiss and touch your precious chubby feet
you who do not drink, philander or eat blood flesh of meat
oh, please drive me away now in your lovely Rolls Royce car
and I shan't complain afterwards, even if you leave - or smoke a fine Cuban cigar,

My Lord and Perfect Master, whoever you are.

- Bambi Nicole Lewis

[Yeah, that's the ticket. See how easy that was. Ok, who's next? remember: the sappier and crapppier, the better.]

fer crying out Lard!

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:34:23 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: guess who wrote this one? for real:
Message:
Maharaji: Are you your own friend?

'Am I my friend? Do I agree with me? Or do I walk around going: 'I shouldn't have done that. I'm stupid, I'm this, I'm that, I'm crazy. What are other people going to think about me?' I find this to be a very big disease: what are other people going to think about you. People get embarrassed. And it's like what are other people going to think about you. By the way, what do you think about yourself?'

remember Michele Deradune? poor thing, guess she's still in a quandary, her mind twisting in the wind...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:39:13 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: just wondering
Message:
I haven't been reading or posting on this forum [may god bless it], but can anyone tell me if the guru has become an ex yet?

Like I said, just wondering. B)

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:49:21 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: just wondering
Message:
he was never a P R E M I E to begin with. I don't understand your question. ())juajuajuajua...
Hi u!
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:58:54 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam you idiot OT
Message:
I saw on another forum(I think the SAT forum) you use the term 'Jewish cunts'.
I hope for your sake that there isn't enough information on the net to identify who you are.
The Jewish Defense League is alive and well in most parts of the world and would certainly identify you as an anti-Jewish scumbag who should have the shit kicked out of him.

This is a friendly warning.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 05:57:04 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Jethro (OT)
Message:
Hi Jethro,

What's wrong with being Jewish? What's wrong with being, having, or even admiring a cunt?

And who's going to grass salam up to the Jewish Defense League? They sound like the Jewish equivalent to the Christian National Front.

Does the 'friendly warning' mean you'll get the thugs onto him?

Lighten up Jeth. If salam was offensive, point it out to him and see how he responds. There's no need to threaten him with what sounds like a gang of Jewish thugs.

Anth, rain on the roof.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 06:10:24 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anty, read the whole thread NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:24:06 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I read it after Jeth'.
Message:
points taken,

anth, going going gone.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 10:54:04 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Anty, read the whole thread NT
Message:
and don't forget Jim's post on the Sat-chit-chatroom, saying 'anyway, screw the Palestinians ...'

Reminds me of Blunkett wanting to impose a 'British nationality' test on immigrants.

Q What feature would define your average Brit?

A Racism?

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:54:09 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Oh no
Message:
I've called a jew a cunt. Help me, Jethro is going to tell the mossad about, am afraid. This is like calling cw a cunt and the next day I get a gang of premie at my door.

you are obviously a bigger idiot than I am.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 22:05:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam I was not threatening you
Message:
I was trying to do you a favour but never mind.

Be rest assured that I will never comment on your comments again.

And you're probably right , I am a bigger idiot than you.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 22:19:42 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Salam I was not threatening you
Message:
I guess it was one of those posts you wished you'd never written Jethro:)

I;ve got a few of my own scattered about the archives...ah well.

I take it you're not a Mossad agent then? :)

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 22:26:49 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: You got in one NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:02:21 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Give the guy a break, Jethro
Message:
I tried reasoning with him but he is not a well man.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:05:44 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know that Pat but
Message:
I really mean what I said. I am concerned for his safety. Some of these vigilaties are real nutters and are particularly sensative at the moment.

All the best

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:16:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: No, Jethro, THAT's unreasonable
Message:
Jethro,

The JDL is a tiny, tiny, tiny group of almost negligable proportions. There aren't enough radical jews in the world for Salam to worry about. Now, if what he'd said was something about those 'Muslim cunts', well, then that'd be a different story, woudln't it?

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:37:23 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don 't agree
Message:
The head of the JDL in the USA is now under arrest(withour bail) for plotting to blow a Mosque.

Attacks on Jews outside Israel don't make the news these days. But there have been alot in recent years and believe me there are vigilante groups in most countries.
They are not all called JDL, but they have there share of individuals who have targeted individuals.

On reflection maybe I should have emailed Salam privately.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 16:27:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Where'd you get that from?
Message:
But there have been alot in recent years and believe me there are vigilante groups in most countries.
They are not all called JDL, but they have there share of individuals who have targeted individuals.

I've never heard any such thing. Ever. Care to explain further? Any incidents, even one, you can point to?

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:52:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No, Jethro, THAT's unreasonable
Message:
The JDL is a tiny, tiny, tiny group of almost negligable proportions

Yes, and I heard half of them are behind bars... :)

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:21:07 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I know that too, Jethro........
Message:
...but even more important is that ordinary sane people are also offended by it and will continue to exclude him from the human race much to his disadvantage.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:07:56 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I don't think so, Salam
Message:
I believe he still drinks, smokes and womanizes but as far as I know he's still married.

What brings an ole prickly pear like yourself to these parts? Things too warm for you in Oz? I thought you A-rabs liked it hot...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 23:18:42 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: OK
Message:
I guess you're lucky in a way init? If he does he'll want to post on f7 then everyone wants to go to AG or sat-chit forum.

By the way, will you ban him, if he tried to post?

Am not your ordinary Arab that's why you silly man.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:33:51 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Sympathy for the devil?
Message:
Things are really popping here. The contributions of all the new exes are wonderful, and bringing new insights to me. Plus, you are full of information about events old and new. Do tell!

Today, I was called the functional equivalent of Osama bin Laden by a premie. At first, I was really angry. Now that a few hours have passed, I want to thank that intelligent soul for having called me such an epithet. You showed us a great deal about yourself and your blind devotion to your master. You have given us a rare view into how truly isolated some premies have become in their dedication to Captain Rawat and how twisted and misguided in their thinking some have become.

I was not going to say anything in the thread where Sampuranand's death was discussed. Having suffered through more than my share of death at a very early age, loss is still loss, no matter who experiences it. Plus, I deal with death every single day in my work. I remained silent until some idjeet started calling exes who were angry about Sampuranand's possible role in covering up Jagdeo's sexual abuse 'vultures' and insensitive.

This raises the questions: should we feel sympathy for Rotwat under these circumstances? And, why do some premies ignore the extraordinary expressions of pain, sorrow, loss and compassion posted here and then rail at us for being insensitive vultures when Sampuranand dies?

I have my own theories about this, but I have to run out right now. Tell me what you think.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:49:38 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The insensitive, heartless, vulture
Message:
Dear Marianne,

I can see why you got so angry in that post. You expressed a very personal event, ie, wanting to go home for Christmas shortly after you father's suicide. The reply to you is what I would define as the very things we were accused of: heartless, insensitive and inhuman.
I can tell you that I experienced loss at a very early age as well but not as painful. Loss from suicide is the worse sort of death for those of us left behind could ever encounter. My brother died, in his sleep, when I was 17, just a few months before I heard about M. I often wonder if my brother's death had not occurred, just how ripe would I had been for M's picking, but that is another story. Maybe I'll do a thread on it someday.
I too, deal with death and life as you do but in a different venue. I've seen many people die. I've been with several when they did, my own mother, a patient I was tending to. And many, many in the operating rooms, although they were not conscious. I have had many people very close to me die. My brother, my mom, my mother and father in law, and two from suicide. I can tell you without a shadow of doubt, that suicide leaves such pain for those of us left behind. I can not begin to imagine what the emotional stakes are when it happened to you with your father of all people. I know that the boy, who lived down the street, who took his life will always be with me in my heart. There's something about that kind of death that is so extraordinarlly painful. I have no doubt you understand what I am trying to say. There's never a resolution to death from suicide as there can be with death as a natural cycle of life. I am okay with my brother's death and my mother's but this death of this boy is something that I will always be sad about. The premie who posted to you after what you said in your post, and what he/she said to you is hardly recognizable as human in my book.
Do I feel sympathy for Ralwat? Am I allowed to laugh in this thread?
Let me lay it out as I've observed about Ralwat's sensitivity and grief to the death of those that he should grieve about.
The numerous premies who either committed suicide or died while in his ashram. I never heard that he attended any of their funerals nor sent a note to the family for that matter. Much less flowers. No acknowledgement whatsoever to a life that had dedicated themselves to him. That's heartless.
His own Mother, yes he went to her funeral but that's all he did. He shunned her at a very early age. I doubt she even knew her grandchildren. That is heartless.
Premies that have written him letters pleading their love in times of real distress and asking for just an answer, an acknowledgement that he hears them and cares. Did he ever answer any of these? Did he even read them? Nope, threw them in the trash as described by several PAM's who have posted here. That's heartless.
I would ask if Michael Dettmers or anyone else that could illuminate me on what M's reaction to death is to please answer. Death of those that he supposedly loves. Tears while drunk are not sincere. They don't count.

I would like to say to all those premies mourning Sampuranad's death to think again. What is this knee jerk reaction? Did you really know him?
Were you friends?
Are you so sad because you think M is sad?
Was he such a great guy? What great things did he do? Did he help Jagedo escape? Do you even know or care?
Sampuranand lived quite a long life. M continually reminds everyone of their mortality. A recurring variation on a theme. M says he teaches about life but he sure does alot of dwelling on the inevitable. Constantly reminds premies of the impending doom and gloom, death. What's with that?
Death is a process most of the time. Dying is easy. The actual leaving requires no participation on a human's part. I've know three people to die and come back. A close friend and two patients. All three of them told me that there was such peace while they were going down the tunnel towards the light. I know for a fact that they were clinically dead at the time. Now this may just be the brain cells giving the last hurrah or it could be an actual event. I'll have to die and see to know for sure.
I have 'dug down deep' to try and produce a shred of remorse for this individual and Maharaji in his loss. Nope, nothing, nada. Am I gleeful? No, I am discouraged. I think this PAM may of known about Jagedo's exodus to India and much information on how, when, where, and why Jagedo came there. Where he is now. How many children he raped in India. His history as perhaps no one else could tell it.
Do I feel remorse for M? The bigger question is, does M feel remorse? Is M even capable?

And premies, the likes that I witnessed in the thread below, are very capable and qualified to fling the insults that we witnessed. They know these words well because that is what they have become.

Take care,
Love,
Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:14:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Sympathy for the devil??????
Message:
Dear Marianne,

Since it was I who first expressed no sympathy for the devil under the thread 'Sampuranand,' I want to respond.

First, I have no sympathy whatsoever for Rawat, regardless of what happens in his life. How could I? I've never done what he has done; I've never pretended to be the Lord of the Universe. I only bought into his evil plan to use and use and use his followers more than I ever dreamt possible. I have come to know that maharaji is dangerous and evil.

My devotion to him was real in my heart, mind, and soul, and maharaji proved to be a thief of my heart and soul and spirituality, as well as my emotional health, my physical health which affects me to this day. Now, I don't even know what a soul is or if such a thing exists. I slaved for him with the reward being nothing but more demands, plus the ''love of the lord.'' He told me that ultimate lie. Maharaji had no sympathy for me when I collapsed after a year of slaving for him at DECA; he, through his minions threw me away to fend for myself--there was no real protection in the ashram, although he said the ashrams were his hospitals, his houses, the place where ''true refuge could be found.''

Now that devotion is called gratitude, I feel hurt to the marrow that maharaji has never once said to me ''Thank you for all your help and hard work and sacrifice.'' No sympathy for him from me. Ever. Perhaps I have developed a hard, unbreakable hull around my figurative heart in order to protect myself from his betrayal. That crusty hull is reserved for Maharaji, fake Lord of the Universe, who betrayed me beyond my wildest conception of betrayal. I am learning what real human love is now that I am free of his bondage.

Now that I see through his lies, now that I have proof of his lies, I know that those premies who come here to be distruptive, insulting, and cruel are caught in that lie. They cannot have compassion for us, that, in cult programed minds would be a betrayal of maharaji. Premies are trained to be like their master, but beneath him.. Those who have come here emulate his behavior: cruel, manipulating and ignorant. They can't understand the cult exiting process, the losses we suffered because of our involvement with that charlatan because they are still caught in the web of his deception. I don't excuse it, I understand it though. But I don't excuse it.

Why premies feel so desparate to protect maharaji is the last gasp of holding onto a fake God, years of brainwashing. Yet, in the past year, some of these people have done great damage to you and others here by using their various evil devices (CAC, hacking, etc.) not only to discredit, but to personally harm you. I have no sympathy for the likes of these deluded indivuals. I have empathy for those who read this forum and EPO, then one by one come here, afraid to post their names because of that intense cult indoctrination, yet take that leap, not of faith, but of the desire to rid themselves of that thick layer of cult brainwashing. They find relief in the welcoming. The layer of deceit begins to unwrap for these new exes, as well as those of us who have been here a while, exposing raw grief. For these people I feel great sympathy and empathy.

My understanding of the brainwashing by maharaji of premies is very clear, and yet, there is no excuse for the bad behavior and horrid words posted here in defense of a cult leader who has an extraordinary ability to lie, cheat, steal, and abuse those same followers who support his life's goal. That life's goal is not to be kind, nurturing, humanitarian, or even to reveal the ''Truth,'' rather it is to run a cult family business, using other people's money, people who love him above all else, to fill his personal coffers with a massive amount of cash, and things--expensive things, while he dupes his followers into being so afraid of him they can't even muster the courage to ask him a question--he denies them even that. Sympathy for maharaji? Never.

I'm not so good at expressing myself in words here. I look to find a word that describes what Maharaji has done to me personally, to all the ex-premies who have come here to find relief and understanding, and the thousands of premies who have given so much more than he could ever deserve. I cannot find a proper word for what he has done.

Maharaji lost a close friend. I wonder if he has the capacity to feel grief and loss. I don't think so. I suspect he is thinking only about himself and what he lost in Sampuranand as another cultist who protected him and advised him about how to further exploit his devotees.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:07:06 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Best of Forum
Message:
My god, Cynthia, this is an incredible post. You dwelve into the depths of devotion for which we are said to never have experienced.
I have a new theory, ex'es are the real 'premies' as in premie means lover, just lover, not premieprempalji, and everyone here loves the truth, embraced the truth, no matter what the emotional pain. We all went to knowledge looking for truth, but what we found was a blatant lie. That didn't stop us, we are still seeking the truth, of what all this was really about, so we can be allowed to be our true, free selves. You covered it well.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:13:05 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Cynthia's response to Sympathy for the devil??
Message:
Thank you, Cynthia! Wonderful summary expressed with such elegance!
My heart was nodding, yes, yes, the whole time I read it.

When I broke the news of my exing to my 27 year old stepson, pretty much saying everything you said here but not as well as you have here, he said to me: 'Dad, that guy is really evil. On a smaller scale, maybe, he's as bad as Hitler. How could you have not seen how evil he was before this?' To which I responded: 'Now you understand the nature of brainwashing.'

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:36:12 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The triangle is the answer
Message:
'And, why do some premies ignore the extraordinary expressions of pain, sorrow, loss and compassion posted here and then rail at us for being insensitive vultures when Sampuranand dies? '

A premie's world is simple. It has ONLY 3 things in it. M,K and last (and by all means least for M) the premie. A premie may only direct his 'human' feelings towards M all others are secondry, if not irrelevant. A classic example of cognitive dissonence.

Here's a prime example.
One of my (I think now former) friends has had k since 1973(not a PAM). I went to see him some years ago in Australia. His first wife died and had one child with her who is now an adult.
He remarried after the ashram closure to another ashramee. This lady is a good few years younger than him and was certainly of child-bearing age. I asked him if he intended to have any children with her(she hadn't any kids).

His answer was this, said with a big grin
'Whenever that sweet feeling(a woman's desire to bear children),arises in her, I destroy it'.
I should add here that he didn't mean that he beat her up, rather he 'satsanged' her out of that feeling.

'This raises the questions: should we feel sympathy for Rotwat under these circumstances? '

Yes, the same sympathy held for Hitler when he realised his Reich was falling.

Take care,

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 22:46:39 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Sympathy for the devil?
Message:
Of course you can have sympathy for the devil,that's what draws his sting. Does the devil have sympathy....No ,that's what makes him a devil.

We can't know Rawat's feelings for the people closest to him, but there's no reason to assume, him being notgod, that they're any different to anyone elses.

The devil in all this is his assumption of divinity, & our acceptance of it.

I felt sympathy for Gordon Brown (UK Gov.Minister)last week when his newborn baby died. Doesn't mean I'll vote for his party at the next election.

The premie who called you Cynthia & Tonette insensitive, feels himself to be part of a family of lurve.

Too bad that daddy doesn't give a shit.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:18:09 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jagdeo's Heavy Hitting Satsang
Message:
Was there ever a devotee Babe Ruth amongst us the likes of Jagdeo? No, there wasn’t I mean that man could knock the ball out of the park with his stern discourses night after night like nobody else. He was as serious as a heart attack. And that is no bullshit! If you will return with me to yesteryear (say, late 1974) for just a moment, and think back carefully, I think you all will have to agree that dollar-for-dollar or pound-for-pound the ultimate heavy hitter in the West as far as the nightly droning was none other than that alleged child molester and rapist Mahatma Jagdeo. (Hey, he also cheated at tennis [his line calls were so unfair, it was a joke] . . . but I know this is no laughing matter to Abi, Susan and any of his other silent victims still to this day remaining unidentified but hopefully somehow somewhere healing, if possible).

Satsang [again we have two English language pronunciations depending on what side of the Atlantic you were on. For the Americans, it was pronounced like in a broad Midwestern accent like what you do before you put on your shoes = “you put your SOX ON”; but for the British, it was pronounced SAT as in “Excuse me, I just inadvertently SAT on your elbow, I’m sorry,” and SANG as in “I never Sang for My Father”] was all we had on all of our evening calendars. Period. Satsang and that was it. No moves, tv, books or radio; no dinners out, no night classes, no nothing -- just discourse. It was kind of exciting to see who was going to get up and say what night after night after night after night after night after night, year after tear after year after year, I guess. Until we were all shitcanned. Videos of heavily edited Maharaji or nothing. You can all SHUT THE FUCK UP NOW! [Maybe he was right. If it shut up Jagdeo, I’m all for the new policy]. “Satsang,” a lovely word either way you pronounce it -- but now piled upon my trash heap of useless Hindi words I’ve picked up over 30 years.

Mahatma Jagdeo used to rail on and on. His satsang was so heavy you could barely look at him head on for the entire time. What with his twisted expressions and screaming pedagogic tools. He’d always ask these loud rhetoric questions, and then give the answer himself. (e.g., “And who is our Savoir, Lord and Perfect Master? . . . pause . . . Guru Maharaji!”) You just hoped that he’d keep it short, say under 40 minutes, but there was no guaranty. Perhaps if he just had a hot shot of chai and the caffeine was rushing through his veins, he’d go on and on and on for near an hour. He could be so heavy and downright scary, that we just prayed and begged in our hearts to Guru Maharaji to please make him stop so we could crawl out of there and go home and have a spot of tea and a thumbs-in-ears lean on the baragon before falling into a hopefully peaceful sleep. Jagdeo’s nightly speeches were downright frightening filled with images of snakes and scorpions, etc. etc. I think you must agree, if you were there, that he was a sick one-of-a-kind.

I bring this all up because last night I was speaking with an old ex-PAM friend of mine who sort of just quietly left through the back door about 10 years ago, and he recalled the time when Jagdeo was speaking (ON AND ON) at Room 401 of the Kittridge Building (the International Headquarters of DLM Building) in downtown Denver one night when a semi revolt broke out: About three or four of the production premies (employees of the old Shri Hans Production Company which produced your “And It Is Divine” magazine and “Divine Times” newspaper, etc.), the guys and gals working the microphones and soundboard, just couldn’t take it any longer. They all started singing “JAG DEO. JAG-DAY-AY-AY-O, Daylight Come and I Wanna Go Home! Jag DEO., Jag Day Ay Ay O…” (If you’re under 45 years old, you might not recognize this Grammy award-winning song by Harry Belafonte). Anyway, we laughed and laughed (last night and 28 years ago). This guy was an unbelievable piece of work. It makes me so mad that I ever did one thing for that asshole or ever smiled once back at his crooked smile. And he was sponsored by, coached by, propped up by, shielded by, supported by, given plane tickets by, and loyal to none other than “The Maharaja of Malibu,” and no one else.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:42:57 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: What was Jagdeo's Reaction?
Message:
I never had the displeasure of meeting or seeing the man, except maybe at the large festivals.

What was his reaction when premies started singing that?

I love that song.

I'm from the northeast and I always pronounced satsang as SOX ON. But within the Hartford, CT community there were wide varieties.

Thanks for that, I need a good laugh. :)

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:54:26 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Day Oh, Jag Day Oh - L.O.L.
Message:
OTS,

If Mahatma Chuck Day Oh was DLM's Babe Ruth of satsang, you must be Joltin' Joe.

The very first thing that popped into my mind when I read your subject was that 'Day-Oh' rebellion. I wasn't one of the singers but I was one of the Shri Hans Productions folk and remember the event very well. I can't think of 401 without thinking of Jagdeo. Man, that guy could ramble on ad nauseum.

One of IHQ's better stand-up comedians, Lenny Rann, could do a killer wicked impression of Jagdeo's act. Lenny's schtick relied heavily on Jagdeo's circuitous non-logic that careened all about the universe with the inevitable punch line 'Guru Maharaji!' I'll try to give a 'shining eggjample'.

My dear brothers and sisters, who is the one who is giving that which may only be given by He who is the giver of all that has been given since time immemorial and that same Pefect One who has put us all here by His Grace to hear His divine satsang? Guru Maharaji!

Richard, who just just got whiplash from a 401 flashback

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:31:03 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: lenny! omigod, lenny...
Message:
oh richard, I'd forgotten all about Lenny! i knew him in new york before I and then he came west to denver!
lenny was a stealth comic. you never knew he was going to be funny. he was like steven wright. he would stand there looking somewhat confused and then slowly speak his take on something, and it would break you up all over.

and 401. omigod. unlike you, I CAN remember 401 without mahatma jagdeo. i picture annie bishop and sarah brennan with their guitars and their elic voices and their long granny skirts singing in heartbreaking harmony. or doug mcginnis plunking his wry western sounding devotional ditties, complete with laconic texas glint in the eye and restrained smile.

401K--the original retirement plan, where you believed you were making deposits against your future karma when mahaaji's work and yours were done. another bankruptcy and security fraud exposed.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 14:49:04 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: richard@rogers-graphics.com
To: janet
Subject: 401 - And Bill Rowe's enchiladas
Message:
janet,

401K - l.o.l.

Yes, I remember the good times too. Like waiting in line for Bill Rowe's enchiladas and having lunch with Cliff Bowden while he pontificated in his wryly sacreligious way about all things M&K. I was having dinner with some old premie pals last week in Miami and was told about Bill's demise in Hawaii a few years back. (Details via email as I don't want to print it here.)

I also recall, GMJ coming to (Kittredge Building owner) Joe Gould's birthday party in 401. Joe tried to give GMJ a thank you hug and GMJ ran the other way.

We also watched King of Hearts in 401 which, today Post-K, takes on a whole new meaning.

For the IHQers, 401 was our church, our community center, our dining room and our dance hall.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:32:14 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Off The Scale...Great Post(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:32:19 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Jagdeo's Heavy Hitting Satsang
Message:
Odd isn't it. I thought that I was the only ungrateful premie who thought that about Jagdeo's satsang every night I had to hear him drone on and on in London all those years ago.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:30:45 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Bestest of Forum
Message:
Very funny shit you have there. Love that post.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:59:06 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Keep it coming, OTS
Message:
You've got lots to say and it is very enlightening, and very funny. More, more, more.

We're waiting for that Journey, which will be very illuminating indeed.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:50:26 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: that was a beaut, OTS
Message:
So OTS is it, huh? How does one pronounce that? Otis? I was kinda partial to Henrietta myself.

By any name, that was a fantastic post. Thanks for that and I'm really glad you are here.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:32:29 (EST)
From: gerry-Alright then it's settled
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Catweasel is persona non grata
Message:
And his posts will be deleted as they appear. Also any Cat-like troll posts will be deleted because we can't trust premie trolls like Catweasel to stick with one name.

Also, if there are no hearty objections, i'll delete this thread as well as the Catweasel thread and we'll be done with him.

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 09:30:46 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: gerry-Alright then it's settled
Subject: Re: Catweasel is persona non grata
Message:
Was he the one, a few weeks back, that cackled like a cat with a canary, about some big thing that was in the works. Something along the lines of 'just wait to see what's in store for you next'? As in EPO's current state?
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:40:33 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: gerry-Alright then it's settled
Subject: i vote yes [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:20:15 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: gerry-Alright then it's settled
Subject: but, what about.....
Message:
My only possible objection would be that catweasel and his troll buddies demonstrate the perverted and ruined personality traits that can develop from devoting ones life to the goo.
Other than that I find the trolls to be rude, offensive and downright ugly.
Ultimately I guess it's up to the webmaster to decide.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:08:34 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Marshall - He makes the exes look bad
Message:
I've heard this said before, and if you put his posts in a vacuum it would be true. But if an impartial observer who knew none of the people here read some of those threads CW has defecated in, he brings many people right down to his level. If you really examine many exes responses to him, the exes sound pretty awful as well.

Right smart he is, and many people have said the same thing you do. I don't buy it. His game is to stink up the Forum so badly that many people, especially fence sitters or even committed exes, will not go near it.

I felt the same way the first time I looked at the Forum, several years ago. It was like, 'what the @#*&???'

Bests,

F

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:25:35 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: You are right, Francesca
Message:
At least, I think you are right.

When I first came here a couple of years ago, it was a bear pit. There was no way of controlling the trolls and vicious verbal battles were almost inevitable. But it no worse than Slashdot and a lot more interesting, so I got stuck in.

But now it does seem that we can trace and out unwanted trolls. The threat of exposure keeps them under control. The forum is much more gentle and civilised and welcoming without the Cult Fundamentalists making trouble.

I am sure Cat hates that -- so let's keep it that way!

The benefits of displaying the twisted premie mind-set are, in my view, overstated. All the exes here know it already -- and the nevers like me (people who were never involved with the cult) surely know it too, or we would not be battling with the exes to end Rawat's racket.

So yeah, a section on EPO to display the lack of clear thinkin' and kind lovin' exhibited by many cult apologists would seem to be all that's needed. We could even agree to preserve the anonimity of its subjects -- provided they leave this place alone, at least until they have (re)discovered how to deal with folk on the level.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:41:22 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: You are right, Francesca
Message:
You guy's are right.
I agree with you, Francesca, and Gerry. It's not worth it, we can have a section of premie wisdom on EPO.
Let's do it that way, we should really take away any control from these control freak dysfunctionals.
John T never a premie...I'm curious did you know about Rotwatts cult before you discovered this forum, or did you just happen upon it and learn all the details thru the ex sites?

Marshall

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:06:04 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: then and now
Message:
I first noticed the young Rawat as a fat fourteen year old when I was a teenager in Bristol, England. It was never my scene, to put it mildly. I was into other aspects of the counterculture. Not that the Blight as we dubbed it was too bad right then. Years later I visited a premie house (it might even have been the local ashram) in Montpellier in Bristol and was horrified at the obvious glorification and worship, what with pictures and shrines everywhere. I was immune I guess. Who knows? I didn't dig it anyway, didn't like it at all.

I continued to live my youthful ways for some decades, mostly in Brixton, London, where I embraced poverty with such warmth that I wonder if I shall ever escape. I also embraced a beautiful premie (from a relatively enlightened time in EV's history) who had received K at a small and intimate session in the Instructor's home. She was well into the cult tho never financially, and as much to meet the other very nice people as anything else. Almost a club. Over time, I talked with enough premies, including some hardcore types, to realise there was something rotten in the state of premiedom.

So yes, I knew about DL almost from its inception. I found EPO listed by Google one evening, when I was looking up the EV or Maharaji website for MrsT. The EPO site is much more interesting. It was remarkable how shocked premie friends were that one could learn the K techniques from the EPO site. I think it sort of spoiled the fun for them in a way.

I was sufficiently incensed at the scale of Rawat's crime to take to verse, which poor MrsT then had to endure. The first one is the best.

I guess I keep coming because I like the people here. I think we're a very genuine bunch, and that's refreshing.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:52:33 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Maybe we could have Worst of Forum?
Message:
Ha ha. Just a thought. Toad hall? Just thinking up names is pretty funny. I couldn't believe some premie compared Marianne to Osama Bin Laden. When the truth is seen by some cult-washed people as an 'attack' and is 'hate,' what can I say to those people?

Bests y'all,

==f

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 18:38:03 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: I already suggested that, seriously
Message:
Having them placed in a convenient place will take the edge off the post. Even in the archives, we could have a troll post with a hyperlink to WOF. It would be like putting their posts in jail, you know, keep them away from society. This way people won't be offended at reading them.

The reasons for keeping them out-weigh the bad. If someone does multiple trolling, we could research the troll posts and look for clues.

It might even be interesting for the premies to read how they sound year or so later.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:50:32 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: That's true, marshall
Message:
And that's the only reason I hestitate at all. But it seems the downside of letting him post is too much to pay. I'd like to think that I could just ask him to stop posting, and he'd willingly comply, but we'll see. Maybe he will.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:20:54 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What about his point?
Message:
What about Marshall's point?
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:14:52 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Re: What about his point?
Message:
Marshall's point of showing the results of Maha worship is indeed a valid one. Perhaps we could have a section on the EPO site dedicated to the 'Sayings of Shri Catweasel.' Or is that too similiar to the imfamous CAC website?
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 08:01:01 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What about his point?
Message:
You should only block him when he is out of limits. Don't you think?
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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 09:10:32 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: I tried that on Forum 5
Message:
You should only block him when he is out of limits. Don't you think?


---

I tried that on Forum 5, and it was a pain having to think about every post he made to determine whether I sould delete it or not. He has never contributed anything here of value so a blanket ban is probably best.

John.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 13:25:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Don't Feed the Beast...
Message:
Some here are debating about the value of Catweasal's posts. Some are tongue in cheek, some serious suggestions.

I've learned, very recently, in my personal life, that feeding the beast is not a good thing. Giving attention to the beast is not a good thing. The beast only comes back for more and more and more until it bites you right in the ass.

To reserve precious space on EPO or anywhere for CW would be feeding the beast, IMO. They are voracious, those beasts, and their hunger is almost infinite.

Throw CW out, and please, don't give him a space on EPO, it would give him too much satisfaction.

My 1/2 cent,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 19:57:45 (EST)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: That's true, marshall
Message:
its probably a hassle- but maybe you could block him and post some his especially nasty messages just for prosperity.

he is a good example of what the juju can do to a mind- and it is good to have feature exibits now and then.

Z

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 06:21:38 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: zelda
Subject: LOL! If only...
Message:
its probably a hassle- but maybe you could block him and post some his especially nasty messages just for prosperity.

he is a good example of what the juju can do to a mind- and it is good to have feature exibits now and then.

Z


---

If Gerry could do it for prosperity he would certainly be rich by now..;)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 20:43:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: Catweasel on Display??
Message:
I like the idea. The Caged Cat Sings we could call it... or Kitty's Litter Box...or Watch out for the Cat Shit in the Corner. The possibilities are endless.
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:39:27 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: or 'look what the cat brought in'? (nt)
Message:
or 'look what the cat brought in'?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 21:26:10 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Catweasel on Display?
Message:
well,his post are museum quality exihibits of a bent mind, and as someone said, they actually further the cause of exs.

There have been quite a few inane posts by other people- I like the ones that say that Marmites actions have nothing to do with the experience.
I think it would be good to feature some of those somewhere so fence liners can READ and experience the fence in virtual.

perhaps a section of his choice posts - and the 'kitty litter box ' - or 'cat and friends gallery' seems appropriate.

Hey it would make great a training computer game for exiting prems
'Cult Escape ' or 'Donkey Schlok' or ' Maharaji of the Swamp'
'I know what you did last Festival'
(I'll stop now)

hope you have kept some of these posts and I also thnk cat should be blocked or allowed one post per thread so the gallery has fresh examples.

Z

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:26:09 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: When EPO is back up again
Message:
The archives are full of strange stuff. But as I said above, some of the exes responses aren't too lovely either. I've looked in the archives from time to time, so I know what I'm talking about. It's kind of yucky in some places, sometimes, and not just because of CW either. There have been many trolls. Some must have been famous in their own time. Maybe we could have troll hall of fame?

But seriously, if someone refuses to have an intelligent conversation, and people continue to try to engage them, the whole thread usually sinks to a strange low.

When I first joined the Forum, I was a lot more freewheeling about it, until I read some of those Forum archives and "best of Forums" and saw my own posts in the threads. Things that make ya go Hmmm.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:20:26 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: RecentExes: local community news?
Message:
I am wondering if any recentEx, fence sitter, or one who is otherwise on a local e-mail or snail mail list has received any news lately from their local communities about ending video programs, and/or Elan Vital shutting down.

If you've gotten a letter or e-mail, do post. It's mighty quiet in Rawat's world.

--f

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 07:32:39 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re:My premie friend sent or send? me this one.
Message:
Hi Francesca,

The last one I receive from my premie friend was this one:

'You are most warmly invited to an Introductory Video Event at the
Intercontinental Hotel, located in downtown Miami, Mezzanine Theater, 100
Chopin Plaza, on Sunday, January 20, at 6:00 PM.

Belkis will speak at this event.

Live music will be performed.

Videos:
'The Art of Life', The Greatest Companion' and 'Miracle of Existence'

This is a wonderful opportunity to invite interested people to an event
introducing the possibility of Knowledge.

The Satellite Broadcast will follow the Introductory Video Event, at 8:00
PM:
Maharaji in Philadelphia, USA – Nov. 19, 2001

On the following Sunday, January 27, 6:00 PM, also at the Intercontinental
Hotel, there will be a Learning More Video Event for those people who would
like to learn more about the possibility of Knowledge.

Videos:
'The Gift of Life', 'Thirst and Contentment' and 'Learning More: What is
Knowledge?'

The Satellite Broadcast will follow the Introductory Video Event, at 8:00
PM:
Maharaji in Phoenix, Arizona USA Nov. 2, 2001

Valet parking will be available for $6 on both January 20th and January
27th.”

Thank you, very much

Miami Communications Team

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 12:59:30 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Thanks Sulla -- the news must not be ...
Message:
... the same all over.

I think it's good to post from time to time what's actually going on.

Thanks!

--f

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Date: Sat, Jan 19, 2002 at 08:06:50 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: My pleasure
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 16:19:59 (EST)
From: MISSY
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: RecentExes: local community news?
Message:
Sorry. No such luck. No, no no. [If it were only true.] We just got a phonetree type call at home from our local church lady idustriale telling us about the new round of local hotel video events for us to bring new people to. And about the quota of telling a certain amount of people within the year blah blah blah blah blah. . . SAME SHIT DIFFERENT YEAR, I think the express goes. [If you axe me, I think she just badly misses the smell of those freshly laundered hotel/motel white tablecloth linens and the smooth feel under her plams as the wrinkles disappear.] Same old same old
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 16:41:59 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: MISSY
Subject: Quota for Propagation???
Message:
I think I missed my quota during my last 15 years as a premie unless one person in 15 years is sufficient.

John the propagator

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:49:07 (EST)
From: ExP
Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: RecentExes: local community news?
Message:
Hi Francesca
I am on the various listing for email (and snail mail) from EV here in the UK. Nothing received - last communication was regarding Sampuranand (eh? a couple of days ago now).

No more Video? Does this include closing down the Satellite transmissions?

Whats the rumours?

ExP

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:17:48 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Thanks -- Pat's got it
Message:
This is in the US -- there is also some information that various EV posts will be shut down. Don't know if it's the whole octopus or various command centers.

We shall see. Some of the tentacles of the beast are perhaps being left to wither and die, and Rawat will emerge via satellite as a tubby televangelist, a teletubby!

I'd like to say 'ding dong the witch is dead,' but she may be cackling her butt off on a new broom as we speak. We've already had what may be a hacker's jihad on EPO.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 17:34:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Teletubby, ha ha
Message:
You're right not to second guess the current situation. Very right.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 15:56:26 (EST)
From: Maria
Email: s_meri@hotmail
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca could you email me, ta!
Message:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 17:45:03 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Maria
Subject: Maria -- e-mailed you yesterday
Message:
Not sure whether you got it or the e-mail address was correct.

Bests,

--f

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Date: Thurs, Jan 17, 2002 at 14:57:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: ExP
Subject: Through the grapevine...
Message:
....the only thing that will be left will be the satellite broadcasts. Rawat has now become a televangelist. No doubt they will soon be selling ''Remember to Breath'' watches and begging for donations via TV.

The local premies are thrilled that there will no longer be a community. They hate each other.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 03:51:39 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: hey pat, would you know
Message:
the hindi word for 'hate'?
if premie's are lovers, or lovees,
and all the premies hate each other now, i think a hindi terms meaning 'hatees' or haters' ought to be instituted. you're our resident yoga scholar. if you don't know, maybe Such does.

btw, i laughed out loud involuntarily.
'theyre GLAD the community is dead. they Hate each other'.

this needed to be called for what it was, years ago. it's one of the major things that drove me away.

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:17:55 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The Hindi word for hate
Message:
The Hindi nouns for hate are ghrina, baira, droha depending on how bad the hate is. They are all very onomatopoeic words pronounced gutturally as if spitting out phlegm. A ghrini is the worst type of hater. Seriously! ;)

Actually Jean-Michel is the Hindi scholar and may correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, that hatred drove me away too. It is obvious that premies do not love their neighbors and in fact regard them as rivals for M's love or obstacles in their way.

But we're out of it and it's time to party! :)
[ English to Hindi Dictionary ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 05:17:48 (EST)
From: John G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here's an interesting one
Message:
expensive A 1. maha.ngA
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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:27:03 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: green with jealousy?
Message:
until we get a more exquisitely flavored distinction among the three, i think ghrinie's will do. i think it adequately describes the sort of conniving, jealous, grasping, selfcentered, covetous, envious, manipulative, conscienceless kind of transmogrification of the personality and soul that the once upon a time premies have become.

thanks for the references

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Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 04:31:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To:

Subject:

Message:



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