Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 17, 2002 To: Jan 23, 2002 Page: 2 of: 5


210 -:- some thoughts after many days away -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:09:02 (EST)
__ OTS -:- Re: some thoughts after many days away -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 17:41:46 (EST)
__ magnolia -:- love is action! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 08:01:19 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- and speaking of death..... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:36:14 (EST)
__ __ __ livia -:- Re: and speaking of death..... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:43:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Help here forum guys, -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:25:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- If I would have known what I know now... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 21:26:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Well, we all would of. ot -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 05:24:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Happy Birthday, Tonette... -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:49:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Well, we all would of. ot -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:36:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Happy Birthday, Tonette -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 11:22:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Happy Birthday, Tonette -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:21:05 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Husbands, partners, friends -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:06:15 (EST)
__ 210 -:- Re: some thoughts after many days away -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:13:57 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Re: some thoughts after many days away -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 15:59:31 (EST)

Jim -:- Perhaps that should read 'Out to Lunch'? -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:48:38 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- In other words, gone fishing? -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:12:38 (EST)
__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Ahhhhh... fishing -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:55:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I too can be an equally bad poet, -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:15:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I think I might win... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:45:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Attention, vote time -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:56:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Tell me, was the splash salty? -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 09:51:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- No, it was seagull shit, silly... [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:36:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Now I that I re-read it... -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:55:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Yours is almost...uhhh... lude? -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:26:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I say! What a Rude Redneck!! -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 08:27:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Did you mean lewd? or 'lude? -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:10:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Did you mean lewd? or 'lude? -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:15:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Of course it was a mistake... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:18:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- well, ludeness would sound like this.. -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:38:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I think you mean lewd. -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:43:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- I stand corrected! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:09:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Well, I've been meditating too much -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:49:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I can't stand it Tonette :):) -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:13:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Ahhhhh.... ludes -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:20:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Ahhhhh.... ludes -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:26:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Eclectic -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:36:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Eclectic -:- Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 00:04:55 (EST)
__ JohnT -:- Out to Lunch -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:28:59 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Urine top form, John! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:58:48 (EST)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Jim, OT -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 15:23:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Jim, OT -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 16:11:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Are they getting through? -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 18:14:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, check your email in a few minutes [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:50:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Thanks!(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
__ JohnT -:- -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:28:10 (EST)
__ such -:- her brain's on permanent vacation -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:46:14 (EST)
__ New-Age Redneck -:- Oh, gawd, Jim! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:04:57 (EST)
__ __ 210 -:- Re: Oh, gawd, Jim! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:12:16 (EST)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Good Point! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:43:14 (EST)

Vicki -:- Knowledge the Sleeping Pill -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 10:32:43 (EST)
__ Gina -:- Sleepwalkers -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 08:17:23 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Re: Sleepwalkers -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 21:08:54 (EST)
__ __ Joy -:- Here's a real sleeping pill.... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:22:08 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- reminds me of an old satsang -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:57:56 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:01:46 (EST)
__ Disculta -:- Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:24:22 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Going through the dark glass lightly... -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 16:46:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Lightly does it -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:07:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Lightly does it -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:20:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Films -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 23:35:00 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:14:53 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:09:15 (EST)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Guru Sominex! That explains why... -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:57:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Sominex cheeseballs - LOL!! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:49:34 (EST)
__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Spiritual Amway -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:24:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Guru Sominex! That explains why... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 01:37:04 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Another jingle -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:53:30 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Vivki and Steve, I'm retiring -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:19:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Gonna Miss You!!! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:08:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- You don't actually BELIEVE him do you? -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 22:29:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- See how trusting (gullible I am? (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 03:10:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Vivki and Steve, I'm retiring -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:27:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Words of Love -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:39:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Yuh c'n really feel his pain, cantcha? -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 00:44:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Words of Love -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:02:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Shroomananda -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:01:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Shroomananda -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:59:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- He was posting as shroom -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:46:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- When I got here -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:01:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- so the question is...... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:35:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: so the question is...... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:47:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hey, I'm not a bitch anymore! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:47:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Tonette and JohnT -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:52:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Fan -:- Jesus save, Maharaji spends -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:13:48 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Great post to wake up to. Thanks, Vicki [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:05:44 (EST)

Richard -:- Another international Ex gathering -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:38:07 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- Sounds like an aspirant Latvian night to me -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:10:23 (EST)
__ Disculta -:- Millennium 2003 Steering Committee -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:08:35 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Yes, Disculta -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:18:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Wow! THe grace! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:14:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Damn, that was my cat on the keys again! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:15:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Really Richard!? -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:17:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- I want to know how I get to sit in the front? (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:01:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- By being the 'most cynical,' of course! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:45:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: By being the 'most cynical,' of course! -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:51:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Ohhhhhhh..... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:13:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Ohhhhhhh..... -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:56:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Blue Atheists, rock on [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 21:59:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Wow! THe grace! -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:14:08 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Do you guys do anything but EAT?(NT) -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:17:01 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Do you guys do anything but EAT/ :) -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:59:17 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Richard's a Hobbit -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:10:07 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: Another international Ex gathering -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 04:26:45 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Another international Ex gathering -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:54:56 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- The real Lord is still at the top -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:36:54 (EST)
__ such -:- He's so fine,doo lang doo lang... [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:04:40 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- I wish the archives were on-line.... -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 04:37:56 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- r.e. ramma lama's ding-dong -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:31:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- who put the bip in the bop? -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:44:50 (EST)

someone should look into this ... -:- it boggles the mind. -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:15:05 (EST)
__ silvia -:- Re: it boggles the mind. -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 06:27:18 (EST)
__ __ Other link is PDF ... -:- this one is in html. -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 07:05:20 (EST)
__ __ __ and then -:- scroll down to page 7. [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 07:52:18 (EST)
__ mercedes -:- Re: it boggles the mind. -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:47:17 (EST)
__ __ MathMan -:- Re: it boggles the mind. -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 08:26:21 (EST)

Bodhi -:- New Festerings Afoot -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:14:24 (EST)
__ SILVIA -:- Re: New Festerings Afoot -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 06:28:59 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Wishful thinking -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 04:45:29 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Hysterical.... -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:43:34 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Re: New Festerings Afoot -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:40:47 (EST)
__ __ Anandaji -:- Media coverage -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:40:14 (EST)
__ housemum -:- Re: New Festerings Afoot -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:30:38 (EST)
__ __ SILVIA -:- great idea -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 06:32:49 (EST)
__ __ Anandaji -:- Bravo! What time's it on? [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:44:19 (EST)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Re: New Festerings Afoot -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:55:26 (EST)
__ __ Sally J Raphael -:- Sounds good housemum!- contact my people [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:33:07 (EST)
__ __ __ calling Michael Murphy.... -:- Great! Just what M needs now... -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 07:47:05 (EST)

Livia -:- blind faith -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:23:59 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: blind faith -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:57:50 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- More on the frog, his well and the EPO ocean -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:27:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Ddermot -:- Really fantastic post Steve -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:32:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Dammit, keep putting 2 D's to my name [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:35:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Steve, this is great! BEST OF''nt -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:24:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- I second that! Excellent, Steve! (NT) -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:36:42 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Steve. Very well said. [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:04:23 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Faith needs to be shaken -:- Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:54:24 (EST)
__ __ Anandaji -:- Re: Faith needs to be shaken -:- Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:52:21 (EST)
__ __ __ 007 -:- Faith needs to be shaken not stirred nt -:- Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 19:08:55 (EST)


Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:09:02 (EST)
From: 210
Email: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: some thoughts after many days away
Message:
First, let me say how very much I missed reading these posts the past few days of being away from my computer. The folks here are truly a light at the end of a dark tunnel. I thank you all.

Many thanks to OTS, far below. My partner was in India, but has not said too much about it. I expected to hear many stories of India, that ancient land and culture. But, in reality, very little has been discussed. Now, I think I see why. I do know that when this beloved creature came back to the states, much body weight, about 305%, had been lost. Thank you, OTS, for enlightening me on this subject. There is much to think about in your post, and undoubtely much to help me in this relationship.

An odd thing I have noticed about the premies. Without exception, they all appear to think that maharaji cares directly about them. Is this typical of premies? How very odd. On the contrary, I would have said that he cares absolutely nothing about them apart from being sources of income. I have heard many times that ''Maharaji loves me'', or worse, ''Maharaji is the only one who truly loves me.'' I must say, the latter is very hard to take. That anyone would love my partner, is not hard to imagine! But, the belief in being loved by this guru who would not stop to give the time of day, is heart-rending to me.

Bless all who post here; my thoughts and best wishes are with all who have suffered and are suffering at the hands of this evil man and his cult.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 17:41:46 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: Re: some thoughts after many days away
Message:
Dear 210/yeah_right: Thanks for your kind words. I don’t know the answer to dealing with the situation of having a premie significant other and you being an exe. I really don’t. Up until just a few months ago, yes, we had a this large person it seems right in the middle of my wife’s and my queen sized bed, right in between us. Not a good fit.

The chance to do more service by volunteering for slave work at an event was always first -- family vacations second. I sat and waited by the phone for months and months for many years -- waiting for that call. The chance to do service by sending in more after-tax salary was always first -- family retirement plans, paying off the credit cards, second. Finally, the chance to work for M personally by becoming a slave wager earner with little or lousy benefits as a workerbee in one of his businesses in another city and moving away and divorcing my premie wife and making her move out of our home because she’d never be able to afford it without the two salaries came first -- and keeping my marriage together and allowing my wife to continue with her life uninterrupted came second, even though I always recognized the wonderful beautiful person I am married to and really didn’t want to do it.

I cried over the fact that my premie wife couldn’t recognize the wonderful opportunity I was being presented with (to break up our marriage and ruin our wonderful life together). Somehow I didn’t get the job, but then told my wife about me pursuing this chance behind her back for the past few months because it was then not going to happen and I wasn’t going to divorce her and leave her for this “chance.” She felt like shit. And made me feel worse.

Anyway, obviously being over the edge (too much M), I got really really lucky, and lucked onto EPO and exited. It couldn’t have been a worse situation come to think of it. I’m glad I’m now an exe and out of the entire charade.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 08:01:19 (EST)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: love is action!
Message:
210:

you have hit on one of the most offensive aspects of being in love with a premie, for me at least. every time my pwk has told me how much maharaji cares about him/loves him, i get very bitchy and demand current, here and now evidence that this is so. i remind him that m doesn't know his name and hasn't even spoken to him personally since 1974. love is action, and how does m show his love?

the very worst is when my pwk told me that it is most important that he remember m and holy name/breath/whatever (hey, i'm no theologian on this subject, i was a crazy christian eating at southern baptist potlucks when you guys were all sick in india!) at the occasion of his death. i have told him, that if he doesn't remember and think about those of us who have really been there with him through sickness and unemployment and everyday shit when he is on his deathbed, namely ME and his children and friends, THEN he had better worry about his next life, since my soul will be chasing his around to give him hell for being so fucking in love with that indian!!

he finally told me after one of my rants that, don't worry, he will be thinking of me, too, along with m.

hmmm...maybe it's bondage gear i need for the next phase of deprogramming. i'll show him who deserves to be worshipped!

magnolia who can get a little angry about all this hindu horseshit

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:36:14 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: and speaking of death.....
Message:
Exactly how many funerals has Majharaji attended of his devotees who have died. Specfically, his ashram members, who were extradordinarly instrumental in building his wealth. Huh? Gee, if someone sent me even 10% of their income because I was such an awesome person, don't you think that if I gave a rat's ass about them, I would at least show up for their funeral? In my private jet for pete's sake? Talk about easy but more than that, the right thing to do.
And Maharaji, you SOB, how you used Pia even in her death! For a little history this was a long term devotee who died recently(this past year) She, Pia, launched a very twisted and hateful site to discredit EPO and what was happening on the web. This site was called 'it ain't so.' It was the start of and in very many ways mirrored the CAC attacks. A precursor to what was to come. Pia was dying at the time, God bless her soul. She died. But Maharaji in his never ever ability to use people, mentioned her in one of his 'discourses.' Obtusely. He never gave her a real recognition, nor a congradulatory acknowledgement on all her work with her site in countering the ex presence. He used her even in death. What a bastard!
And I would bet $100 that Maharaji, in his careful, loving recognition of this devotee of many, many years did not so much as send a note, or flowers, much less attend her funeral.
Yet he continued to use Pia, even after her death.
That is what you are up against, 210.

But it is all so beautiful. Yeah_right.

My two shakes.

Warmly, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:43:37 (EST)
From: livia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: and speaking of death.....
Message:
Out of interest, what was the content of Maharaji's mention of Pia?
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:25:23 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: livia
Subject: Help here forum guys,
Message:
the referance to Pia's obtuse mention at a program, was quoted here. I can not for the life of me tell you the exact words. I don't want to make stuff up so, I can only hope that someone who remembers, can give you the exact take on what M said about her, will be able to answer your question.
Pia died right before a program Maharaji had and I do know that he used her in his 'sat sang'or discourse.
If worse comes to worse, I can find it in the archives. My take on what I read about what M said about Pia was so sad. In that, here was a beautiful woman who died and spent a large chunk of her remaining time and energy hosting her web site in Maharaji's name. Aside from the fact that I know Maharaji to be false, did he acknowledge her besides using her name for filler at a program/event? Nope.
Maybe someone here on the forum can say exactly what was quoted or relayed.

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 21:26:40 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: If I would have known what I know now...
Message:
I would have done things differently

How are you Tonette?

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 05:24:04 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Well, we all would of. ot
Message:
When I reflect in this way that you just mentioned, I often end up extremely sad. But, somehow my mistakes, luck, hard work, good choices, bad choices have put me here as I am now. And you know what?

It's not too damn bad! I'm for the most part proud of myself and what I've become and where I want to go.

And Deborah, you gave me some very good advice, complete with an incrediable picture that you posted to me, here on the forum. Remember?

Keep looking up! What a comfort that was at the time.

Today is my birthday! I'm 45! I guess I don't look too bad for my age, although not nearly as young looking as Jim Heller judging from his picture. Geez, was he 8 years old when he got k or something?

I am also wiping the tears from my cheeks because I just read Such's post.

How are you? Still in school? I had to take a semester off for various reasons. I'm disappointed but I'll get over it.

Hugs and here......
I just blew you a kiss. Better catch it. Let's see, Washington, DC to Victoria, 3000 miles? at 5 miles per hour, it will land on your cheek in approximately 600 hours or 25 days. But land it will.

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:49:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Happy Birthday, Tonette...
Message:
45? That's very young!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:36:12 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Well, we all would of. ot
Message:
Happy birthday from me. We haven't talked to each other but I like your posts. At 45 yernowtbutashrimp. have a great day.
Love Mags
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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 11:22:52 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Happy Birthday, Tonette
Message:
If you look anything like your writing, you are gorgeous.

Happy 45th and may you celebrate many more.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:21:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Happy Birthday, Tonette
Message:
Only 45! You're still a baby. May you have many more wonderful birthdays.

Lots of love,

Pat

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:06:15 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: Husbands, partners, friends
Message:
Dear 210 or Yeah Right, whatever,

The final drip for my husband after 25 years or so spent in and around the cult, was when he read EPO and Roger's House and saw without a shadow of doubt that indeed Maharji didn't give a damn about him or his well being. Up until this time, my husband had gotten wind of M's drinking, 'So what if M has a drink every night, I don't care.'
He was well aware of his wealth. And since my husband is not retarded, certainly was aware of the revisionism and hypocrisy that transpired.
We had many conversations and not a few arguments over M and his continued respect for him. But the final straw was the realization of the ultimate lie fed premies by Maharaji, his wife and initiators/instructors: Maharaji does not love you, in fact, Maharaji thinks most premies are stupid.
Have you been able to encourage your partner to look at EPO?
If I remember correctly, you have never been a premie. Correct me if I'm wrong. Well, I was a premie and long after I realized M was the biggest fraud going, I still could not get thru to my husband. Now, everyone's different, however, I doubt seriously if your partner will listen to you. After all, you don't have knowledge!

Kind Regards,
Good Luck
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:13:57 (EST)
From: 210
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: Re: some thoughts after many days away
Message:
much body weight, about 305%, had been lost.

---

Good God! 30%, not 305%. Quite a weight loss system there!

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 15:59:31 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: Re: some thoughts after many days away
Message:
Don't blow the Master's nice little retirement plan. All those neurotic neighbours of his in Malibu who have to be thin,thin,thin.

He's going to open up his back garden,get them to put up their own tents (extra),dig their own latrines,cook their own vegetables,stand in line for hours to eat dinner,be woken up at 5.30 to the sound of a tinny amplifier featuring little known ethnic 'artistes',and so on and so forth. If they happen to be interested in meditation,that's free.

Think it'll work ?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:48:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Perhaps that should read 'Out to Lunch'?
Message:
From ELK. Too funny to pass up:

Gone

You have shown me
the ocean of bliss
that lies within my own heart
the universe of love
that is there inside
waiting for me
to experience it.

That's why I have a sign
hanging on my door these days
that says 'Gone on vacation'.

I intend to leave it up permanently.

Carole Jones
Ithaca, NY, USA

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:12:38 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In other words, gone fishing?
Message:
Or permanently so immeshed in your attention to the ocean of bliss, the universe of love, no longer interested in the human race, or reality, or yourself or those who are around you. That's what this author is saying.

That's schizoid! And self induced autism.

But every premie feels a need to make a stab at poetry, just like Maharaji! I just hope said premies don't begin to believe some of the weird shit they seem so compelled to write.
Then again, Marolyn started birthing children and every other premie was soon following suit. Maharaji got married and it was as if
Sun Young Moon had spoken.
Geez, what a cult!

And how embarrassing! Carole Jones, will you be able to laugh about this someday? I sure hope so!

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:55:58 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Ahhhhh... fishing
Message:
Fishing IS bliss.

A quiet stream,
clear blue-green waters
lapping at my waders.

trout line held deftly
within, inside my fingers
supple fly-rod to
cast softly upon
the living waters.

Ravenous trout
angrily grasp my fly....

My fly????
Oh no....
the call of nature....
but I can't get my waders....
too late!

Ahhhhhh fishing IS bliss

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:15:27 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: I too can be an equally bad poet,
Message:
Bad poetry, just like you know who.

Let's see...

Oh, my heart leaps
with the beauty of your endless
blissful, infinite ocean
the ocean of my soul
my heart
it calls endlessly
like the seagulls
ever present
ever scavenging
never fulfilled
crashing the shell of my being
upon the rocks
like an oyster
for you to feast upon
take me, Maharaji
like the gull takes the oyster
let me feed you
endlessly
like the never ceasing waves upon the shores

I could go on but I think I have to puke now.

Tonette

Yours is equally as bad, no? Mine is worse? Who takes the prize?

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:45:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I think I might win...
Message:
I can't resist...a bad bad poet

I have dropped myself
into the Atlantic ocean
of your love.
Driven by your fantasy,
I have found in the foamy
waves, a gusty wind of love.

My heart dissolves into the salty sea
My heart desires your wine and brie

Thrown against the rocky shores
seagulls drop their little
white gifts, angels!
Falling all around and
upon me they remind me
of your showering grace
Exactly like the one
that splashed upon my face.

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 10:56:15 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Attention, vote time
Message:
okay, who gets the prize for the most luded out or most lewd?
The participants are:
Carole Jones
Jim
Redneck
Tonette
Cynthia
In order of apperance.

I'm voting, I nominate Cynthia as being not only lewd but also quite obviously on ludes.
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 09:51:04 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Tell me, was the splash salty?
Message:
Oh my god cynthia! I don't know, this stanza may just take the cake:

of your showering grace
Exactly like the one
that splashed upon my face.

Now that's lewd or written by someone on ludes. Which is it?
By the way, was the splash salty perhaps?

I propose that we take a vote. And it would only be democratic to include Jim's little gem in the running too!

Okay, my vote goes to Cynthia as the worst but most luded out poet.
Redneck, how do you vote? Of course you can vote for yourself and if Cynthia votes for you, then it's either a tie or Jim will have to chime in.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:36:57 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: No, it was seagull shit, silly... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 15:55:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Now I that I re-read it...
Message:
I see where it could be lewd or lude...

Still, I vote for New Age Redneck's...

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:26:04 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Yours is almost...uhhh... lude?
Message:
YOU WIN! :)

This stanza says it all:

'for you to feast upon
take me, Maharaji
like the gull takes the oyster
let me feed you
endlessly '

Am I reading something into this????? he he he he You can blame my english professors/teachers for this..... he he he.

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 08:27:08 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: I say! What a Rude Redneck!!
Message:
YOU WIN! :)

This stanza says it all:

'for you to feast upon
take me, Maharaji
like the gull takes the oyster
let me feed you
endlessly '

Am I reading something into this????? he he he he You can blame my english professors/teachers for this..... he he he.


---

So what are you saying here, NAR?

What is it about eating oysters, eh? Clearly it has associations for you. What associations, exactly?

I think we should be told.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:10:22 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Did you mean lewd? or 'lude?
Message:
Good mistake, New-Age Redneck. I thought you meant qualudes LOL!
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:15:56 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Did you mean lewd? or 'lude?
Message:
Interesting play on words, but I can't claim it as intentional. As my post below reveals.... it was a mistake. :)
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:18:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Of course it was a mistake...
Message:
I'm not always a hard assed bitchy woman...

I even forgot to read the whole thread before I pitched in.

Who cares about spelling anyway? Many of the smartest people I know can't spell....

Best,
Cynthia :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:38:45 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: well, ludeness would sound like this..
Message:
Let me feast upon you Maharaji
Fill me with the ocean of your love
fill my being with the salty fluid of YOUR ocean
sing like the gulls, Maharaji
let our love be as it is, complete
with each other, connected
let us grope, like the trouts,
in a peculiar river,
for our true path home
master and devotee

now that's what I call lude
too bad it doesn't make any sense
I might just have an entry for LG!

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:43:32 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I think you mean lewd.
Message:
Tonette and NAR,

Very funny guys but unless you mean to say your poems are like taking 'ludes (Qualudes), I think you mean they are lewd. And they are indeed delightfully lewd.

Richard, better lewd than rude

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:09:47 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I stand corrected!
Message:
Thanks for correcting my atrocious spelling. Although..... when speaking about M's poetry, 'lude-like' might apply..... But then, I would be making an excuse for my atrocious spelling :)
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:49:25 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Well, I've been meditating too much
Message:
It's such maya to have to distinguish between letters of the alphabet.

Then again maybe some ludes would improve my spelling and perhaps, poetry?

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:13:25 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I can't stand it Tonette :):)
Message:
You're making my belly ache, LOLOL!
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:20:24 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Ahhhhh.... ludes
Message:
Ludes: (new-age music starts now)

floating softly
whispy clouds
joyous thunder
falling into
the infinite bliss
the infinite ocean
of unconsciousness

NOW STOP THAT, STOP IT, STOP THE MUSIC NOW! (ala monty python)

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:26:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: Ahhhhh.... ludes
Message:
I love monty python....

ludes? It's been decades.

What kind of new age music does a new age redneck listen to?

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:36:30 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Eclectic
Message:
Cynthia,

I love music, especially music that stretches some 'limitation.' Believe it or not, my latest love is psychedelic trance. Not so much the heavy trance stuff (too much bass), but the stuff they call ambient. It really engages a few of my neurons and allows me to experience some fun brain chemistry, without external ingredients (if you know what I mean).

Actually, depending on my mood, I listen to just about everything. Right now, I'm listening to 'Liquid Mind.' I like it, I like it!

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Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002 at 00:04:55 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: Eclectic
Message:
try listening to 'Shpongle'.
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:28:59 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Out to Lunch
Message:
    You have shown me
    the plenitude of piss
    that lies within my bladder
    waiting for the
    blessed relief.
    It is there inside
    waiting for me
    to release it.

    That is why I have
    a sign on the door
    Engaged.

    And why I have
    no sign of a mind.
    I'm completely
    out to lunch.


JohnT
- never a premie
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:58:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Urine top form, John!
Message:
    You have shown me
    the plenitude of piss
    that lies within my bladder
    waiting for the
    blessed relief.
    It is there inside
    waiting for me
    to release it.

    That is why I have
    a sign on the door
    Engaged.

    And why I have
    no sign of a mind.
    I'm completely
    out to lunch.


JohnT
- never a premie


---

No, I'm not trying to take the piss out of you. (I know, Such. I know ....)

Hey, let me try one. Hm, let's see....

My Stomach Rumbles

Every morning when I awaken
I feel the need
To open my mouth
And feed myself

For there
In the centre of my body
Is my stomach
What others have called 'Belly'
Or gut
Even
I guess
You know?
Anyway
Where was I?
Oh yes, I hear it calling
Calling me
To hear it calling
Me
In love
Sorry, make that
Ocean of love
In which I'm gently swinging
Like a baby
In a car seat
That has come unfastened
And has fallen on the floor
Behind the driver's seat
I hear myself cry
And yes, it's like a baby alright
And all of this
I must remember
Is only 'cause of you

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 15:23:35 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, OT
Message:
Jim, are you still at the 'old' email address? I sent one, it didn't appear to bounce, but I wanted to make sure it was going to the right place.

Thanks

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 16:11:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: Jim, OT
Message:
Hi NAR,

Try jimheller@shaw.ca

Good to hear from you.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 18:14:28 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are they getting through?
Message:
Jim, did they make it or is my email messed up?

BTW, I'm ready for that Dawkins discussion we promised each other. Maybe we should do it on the other forum, though :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:50:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Yes, check your email in a few minutes [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks!(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:28:10 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject:
Message:
    You have shown me
    the plenitude of piss
    that lies within my bladder
    waiting for the
    blessed relief.
    It is there inside
    waiting for me
    to release it.

    That is why I have
    a sign on the door
    Engaged.

    And why I have
    no sign of a mind.
    I'm completely
    out to lunch.


JohnT
- never a premie
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:46:14 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: her brain's on permanent vacation
Message:
-- a flatliner
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:04:57 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, gawd, Jim!
Message:
Just when I think my stomach is going to settle down.....

BTW, why does it always have to be an 'ocean of bliss.' Heck, I would have settled for a duck-pond's worth, myself. Never got that either.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:12:16 (EST)
From: 210
Email: yeah_right_210@ahoo.com
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: Oh, gawd, Jim!
Message:
Because, you see, the ocean is so very big and so perfect and so much better than humans and.........so very wet, I should think. Quite cold and dangerous, also. Perhaps the analogy is more apt than first meets the eye?
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:43:14 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: Good Point!
Message:
Ok, so M says dive into the 'ocean of bliss' and then he tells us 'don't get out of the boat.' No wonder we be so confused! :)
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 10:32:43 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill
Message:
Yesterday a long time premie friend called to say she hadn't seen me at the latest program. I told her why. She knew nothing about the behind scenes shananigans of Maharaji or Elan Vital.

She did say she had heard warnings of rumors going around about Maharaji and not to read things on the internet, which was very telling inlight of the recent EPO hacking.

We talked for an hour, and it was interesting to hear her justification for practicing knowledge, how it had helped her and gives her a good feeling, even though she isn't a consistent meditator, but that she always knew there was something more in life growing up in her large family. She is showing videos in her home and that they make her feel 'good'.

I realized at that moment I might as well be talking to a sleepwalker. She was pulling the covers over her head and truly couldn't handle seeing the light of day.

Knowledge, the very thing that was supposed to 'wake us up' to the reality of this existence, in actuality put us to sleep in a waking dream state. That's one of the problems in being a premie. We are told, over and over, to be conscious, have clarity, be aware, BE AWAKE, for god's sake. To what? To Maharaji's little manufactured world of reality, that in reality, is no reality at all. If it were, he and his family, and those closest to him, wouldn't need obsessive control, power, cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, reckless sex, and material possessions that defy imagination. They wouldn't.

And I realized what an amazing con it is, to have knowledge dull our senses and mental faculties, thinking that is the 'feeling' of peace and fulfillment. Really, what fully aware person would accept the dribble and egomaniac diatribes that we were hounded with? But in this sleepy state, we accept all Maharaji says, and what he says causes us to give up ourselves and replace our very own self, with him. He is the all and only important one. It is not 'self knowledge', there is nothing about our self that is for a moment allowed or tolerated, once the line is crossed and a person steps into the premie world. There is nothing about any person that is of value, unless of course, they have lots of money, then it is an entirely different story.

Have you ever watched someone on prescription sleeping pills? They may or may not work effectively, but the after effects often are not worth it. The zombie, drugged out state which alters mood and personality isn't nice. Neither is lack of sleep and it's a real problem, but the problem can be made worse.

And so I realized, Maharaji and knowledge thrive only when he puts premies to sleep in this life.
We think we are awake, but the more we accept the revisionism and his truths, the deeper the sleep becomes. It's hard to wake up. And once awake, the groggy, fuzzy, disoriented feeling makes us look around and wonder, 'Where am I and how long have I been asleep?' Until that happens, the dream weaved by Maharaji and knowledge seems very real.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 08:17:23 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Sleepwalkers
Message:
...'I realized at that moment I might as well be talking to a sleepwalker...'

Thank you for this wonderful post. Reading this brought back the memory of the first time I talked to a premie after I had left DLM, Fall of 1976. I had left to go back to college, to nursing school, and what had jarred me awake was realizing that to DLM 'service' meant service only to DLM, not to our fellow human beings. So I quietly just left.

A few months later I was in downtown Atlanta at the university, waiting in Central City Park for my bus home. The regular 'street preachers' were out there, ranting and raving and waving Bibles and arguing with each other...I always just watched and stayed out of their way. But then I saw one of the premies I knew from when I used to go to satsang at the 15th Street house. He was giving satsang and handing leaflets to people waiting for buses. He came up to me and said hello...he didn't seem to recognize me but that didn't really surprise me...I had always kept a pretty low profile at satsang. He had that blank, blissed out smile on his face and made that weird, prolonged, intense acid-casualty eye contact that had always unnerved me. He babbled on about guru maharaji and knowledge, handed me a leaflet and wandered off.

And I remember suddenly realizing that I was awake and alert and I wasn't so sure about his level of consciousness at all. He seemed like he was sleepwalking, like he might blissfully stumble out into traffic.

That encounter made me thankful to have awakened, but sad for the premie sleepwalkers.

Good morning and much love to all you awake and alert forum folks,
Go well,
Gina Boger-Haney
Atlanta

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 21:08:54 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Re: Sleepwalkers
Message:
He had that blank, blissed out smile on his face and made that weird, prolonged, intense acid-casualty eye contact that had always unnerved me.

You forgot to mention the pink glow that was prevelant amongst the more blissed out ones in those days,& the languid hand movements whilst speaking.

Maybe that's how it shows itself when you're young. In later life many of those people seem tired,ghostly,disconnected,& very pale.

Of course there's all the daytrippers, of whom I was one until 2000,whose connection with the man is residual & based on having a good time with old friends once a year at an event.They just look like anyone else.

Last time I met a real sleepwalker was in 96. Some sort of community rep.I was visiting an old friend of mine who lives in a different part of the country,a very new-agey part,& we went to a party. This guy approached who I'd never seen before in my life & started chatting to my friend. After politely listening for a bit,I sussed that he was premie & mentioned that I'd last seen Bollixshwar in Rome.

He gave me the eyeball & said, 'oh,you came out of the woodwork for that,did you'. I didn't know whether to laugh or hit him, so I just walked away & found some kids who had a bong. It was a very good party.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:22:08 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Here's a real sleeping pill....
Message:
What an excellent thread -- another wonderful post Vicki (and everyone else!).

When I first saw the title I thought it was literally about sleeping, so was thinking of something I wanted to say. It's more about metaphorical sleeping than real sleeping, but I'll contribute my 2 cents anyhow.

I think I mentioned before that before receiving K in 1972 I had been something of an insomniac, often had a difficult time sleeping, and that while in the cult, almost 10 whole years, I virtually never had difficulty sleeping. I don't know what to attribute that to, whether it was the false sense of security/family being in the ashram generated, or doing breath work (the supposed holy name), or just being too darned overworked and tired to not sleep. Probably a combination of all three?

Anyhow, since being out, the old anxiety/insomnia rears its head on occasion, and I have been working with some tapes I ordered from Dr. Andrew Weil (alternative type physician widely seen on Public TV) which feature breathing exercises which I have found very helpful to float off to sleep. So if anybody else in the exiting process is having trouble sleeping, I'd like to share it here.

It's actually very simple: Breathe in (thru the nose) to a count of 4, hold the breath to a count of 7, then breathe out through the mouth to a count of 8. Do it in sets of four, morning and evening, or 8, but no more than 8 2x a day. Supposed to help cure all manner of health problems, but I have found it most useful to replace that stupid midnight meditation the goo had us doing, and certainly no trippiness, gratitude, worship, money donation etc. involved.

Best of luck to all midnight ramblers . . .
Joy

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:57:56 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: reminds me of an old satsang
Message:
Your post reminded me of a recurring analogy heard repeatly in satsang from initiators and the likes. People without knowledge were compared to 'the walking dead.' Those without knowledge couldn't possibly understand or know the preciousness of life. Those without knowledge couldn't possibly be able to feel true joy or real love. Those without knowledge couldn't possibly understand the purpose of life or even what life really is. Those without knowledge well, in essence were already dead. What a load of crap that was! But it was effective in maintaining membership.

Premies now days remind me of an illustration of the saying, 'asleep at the wheel.' A close second of what premies remind me of is the old 'ostrich with it's head in the sand.'

Oh well, this too shall pass.

Incrediable post, I enjoyed it. Thanks

Warmly, Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:01:46 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill
Message:
Great post Vicki,
A couple of things that come to mind. It used to amaze me how many premies could remember nothing of what he'd said, even immediately after he had spoken, as if they had indeed been in some sort of a trance. Also how many actually went to sleep! Both of these reactions could be because he is so indescribably boring or, and this is something I've only just begun to get an inkling of....and that is that his contradictions and mind numbing banalities actually do sort of freeze the brain and literally numb the mind. Not to mention his repetitions, da da da da, enough to put anyone into a hypnotic trance!
Enough to put anyone into a hypnotic trance! Enough to....enough already!
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:24:22 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill
Message:
There's a teacher a lot of my friends have been to (not me) called Byron Katie, who has a saying, 'don't wake the sleeping baby' in reference to just this kind of trance. I heard it the other day and it made me think about these situations of our former devotional colleagues that we can clearly see are in a sleepy trance. I think the thing is that if you go the extra few yards or hours to really help someone still in cultland wake up, and at least acknowledge the elephantine facts about MJ, you may need to take responsibility for supporting them through a tantrum of some kind.

I have a friend who is a premie who really seems to be enjoying it. He has a successful life in every way, including a fabulous new non-premie wife, and extreme kindness with friends. I don't say anything to him. Maybe I would if we spent more time together and specifically discussed MJ, but in our occasional interactions it doesn't come up.

I had many of the kind of conversations described above (and below by Barbara) when I first exited in 1984, but in recent years I barely know more than one or two premies, and anyway, I think it's better for them to come to us, so to speak...

I'm not completely sure about this. Not taking a position, just exploring the territory. I'm concerned that my communications be non-violent, not some kind of heavy rant with an agenda. Does anyone know how effective deprogramming was for the premies that actually left because of it? Was anyone forcibly deprogrammed? Anyone semi-forcibly deprogrammed by ex-premie buddies?

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 16:46:26 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Going through the dark glass lightly...
Message:
Hi Disculta:

I knew a few premies who were kidnapped and deprogrammed. With some it worked, and with others it didn't work. Attempts at forcible changing of thoughts, words or deeds is not a good idea at any time, IMO. Like you, I had those types of conversations years ago, and again like you, I'm not a fan of agenda-type conversations. So many conversations as a premie were of those types, e.g, leading questions or comments designed to bring up Maharaji, so I am loathe to perform those manipulative machinations now. To tell you the truth, I am not one to judge premies' involvement with Maharaji, even though I wouldn't (or couldn't) return to that scene for a zillion bucks, and thank god(dess) that there but for the grace of psychotherapy and foreign films go I. (What is it about those French flicks?)

Who knows what lies beneath anyone's veneer of beliefs, and if I am to indulge in a conversation that delves beneath that veneer, I would want it to be mutual. There's years of suppression in them that hills, so it's important to go through that dark glass lightly (to grossly mix my metaphors).

+) +)

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:07:20 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Lightly does it
Message:
Hi Barbara,

Yes, I agree. No force is good. Even when premies or fence-sitters come here, I think it's important to be - ah - sensitive. Them years of suppression can be a big deal, and the safest way out is by gradually making one's own new choices. I'm glad one of the choices premies have now is to read the stuff here and on EPO. And I have a continued concern that many people don't get the level of personal deep support they might need when exiting.

Talking of French films, est-ce que tu as vu un French film called Amelie? It's on here and I'm trying to decide whether to go.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:20:13 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Lightly does it
Message:
Hi Katie:

When I left, I was so confused as to be almost catatonic. Thankfully, a good friend who had been a follower of Yogi Bhajan referred me to a therapist who had also been in a cult, so therein I received my much needed support, for which I have always been eternally grateful. One of the most salient points which this therapist made was that part of the fear of leaving a guru was getting over the fear of dying (rotting vegetables) when you leave.

I haven't seen Amelie, but it's on my list of must-see films. Eveyone I know who's seen it highly recommends it. I've always loved French films, I think because of their sensuality. I love looking at them and I love the sound of the French language. After seeing a French film, I want to drink coffee out of a bowl, eat bread, smoke Gauloises, and wear blue. ;)

Gosford Park's a fun film, too.

B

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 23:35:00 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Films
Message:
Joy told me she saw Amilie and it was light, but fun. I plan to see it soon.

I saw 'In the Bedroom' last week, and man, there is a great gob of good acting going on in that film. I heard Sissy Spacek got the Golden Globe and she deserved it.

Went to see 'Lord of the Rings' on Saturday, and that is one georgeous film, but I hope people don't take their kids to see it or they will have nightmares until they are 30.

Also loved the 'Royal Tannenbaums' -- Gene Hackman is a marvelous jerk.

Barbara, the videos commeth.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:14:53 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill
Message:
Well said, Vicki. I've had a few of those conversations. I realized then that denial is the coverlet under which cognitive dissonance sleeps.
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:09:15 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Knowledge the Sleeping Pill
Message:
Excellent, Vicki! Thank you. Reminds one of that old TV jingle:
'Take Satguru tonight and sleep, safe and restful, sleep, sleep, sleep'.
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:57:32 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Guru Sominex! That explains why...
Message:
... it was so easy to doze off listening to his satsang. He could market many of his videos as a cure for insomnia. ;)

But Vicki is so right, about M's world of Knowledge being his little manufactured world of reality. What kind of ''reality'' only holds up when you filter our contradictory information? Premies who would not do that in any other area of their lives willingly and gladly do it when it comes to questioning anything about Maharaji.

I remember at the Long Beach Program in 1997, where he showed that video with the fancy graphics, ''Welcome to the World of Knowledge''. There were a whole lot of things at that event that started to make me feel that Maharaji's ''World of Knowledge'' had a really ''Cheezy'' side to it, like it was Spiritual Amway or something. He kept talking about the ''Magic'' like it was a Disney thing. The shopping pavillion was a tacky circus.

Like a good premie, I didn't blame M, and assumed it must be Elan Vital. But after seeing the Atlanta training video, it was pretty clear that the rot starts at the top. The premies volunteering at Elan Vital and Visions International don't do anything that Maharaji doesn't want them to do.

I'm sure a lot of the denial premies have, is that they really can't stand the idea of being part of a cult. I know that idea really bothered me. I would NEVER join a cult! I just COULD NOT be in a cult! To admit that is to admit that M's World of Knowedge is just a belief system dependent on his personality. And we were all told that Knowledge was not belief or a concept, but simply ''reality'' or the Truth. It's slimy the way Maharaji twists things, like ''Knowing Yourself'', into accepting his version of reality, which is trusting The Master to tell you what reality is, and falling asleep to ourselves, and the dreaded ''doubtmaker''.

No wonder that the aspirants are not allowed to recieve Knowlede until they ''have no more questions''. God forbid anyone should have some of those! Maharaji's Cheezy World of Knowledge doesn't work with questions. His Knowledge is a cheezball with a sominex pill inside. That's how you feed pills to dogs.

To all you new folks posting - I've been enjoying reading your contributions a lot. Thank you.

- Chuck S.

Who prefers enjoying life and breathing and reality without an imaginary friend feeding him sominex cheezeballs while asking for money.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:49:34 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Sominex cheeseballs - LOL!!
Message:
Very funny Chuck. The 1997 Long Bitch program really turned the previously slow drips into 'the downpour of the wholly inane' for me.
R
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:24:13 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Spiritual Amway
Message:
Chuck, 'Spiritual Amway'..... that is the best description of the whole trip that I've ever heard! PERFECT! Man, talk about real parallels!
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 01:37:04 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Guru Sominex! That explains why...
Message:
Good points about cults, Chuck. Funny thing was that for all those years that I goof-stepped behind Der Fearer, I was so totally convinced that WE had the REAL DEAL. WE had Knowledge, something real, something tangible that all the other groups didn't. All they had was belief systems, bibles, books, worship of dead masters. We on the other hand had an actual LIVING master and a LIVING Knowledge. We didn't have to rely on scriptures. Our satsangs to each other were our scriptures. Because of that, THEY were cults but WE were the real McCoy, the Real Deal, God's own chosen people.

What a horrific, petrifying shocker it is to realize and admit to yourself that, oh my God, we were nothing more than another cult ourselves after all!

Also, I too got my first sense of M's phoniness at the Aurora Illinois program in June, 1976 (the only time he came to the midwest in the 90's). The whole presentation there seemed way too staged, very unnatural, very hiped. There was one point where the hall darkened and we watched a short clip of him flying his jet. All of a sudden from the loud speakers came his shrill voice yelling, almost shouting: 'I Love it! I just really love it!' It just seemed so strange, so weird to hear someone who was supposed to be like Jesus shouting loudly like a used car salesman. Before K I fed myself a diet of many other would-be massas, including Baba Ram Das's massa. Intuitively I always knew that those who had realized (or at least had come pret' near close to realizing) God had no need to shout it from the roof tops. Their sun-like warmth and radiance was infinitely more attractive and disarming to sincere seekers of peace than north wind guru frauds. A more charming way of describing this is one of my favorite phrases from the I Ching which is: 'the taming power of the gentle'.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:53:30 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Another jingle
Message:
I think it appeared in the Mr Natural Meets the Kid comic when I was still a Church Laddie in Denver. It was truly hilarious for those of us who could laugh at ourselves despite it all. The cartoon showed GMJ as a burger flipper and the jingle went:
(Sung to the tune of the Macdonalds commercial.)

You deserve a break today,
Why not throw your mind away,
At Maharaj Ji's.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:19:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Vivki and Steve, I'm retiring
Message:
I woke up this morning to read your posts (Sleep walking by Vicki and Frog in a Well by Steve in a thread below) and realized I've paid my dues and can now retire from posting on the forum. You guys are really good writers.

A year after exing M and K look very silly to me - well, like a ridiculous cult. I was very obsessive for the first year of getting out but now it really is in the past and I only get occassional flashes of anger when I remember mind-fucking Maharajism like ''You need to be saved. No human a being has ever saved themselves. Only the master can save you.''

Actually I don't want to be saved. It sounds too much like I'm a wad of money sitting in a vault in a bank. I prefer spending myself, spreading my wealth around. :)

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:08:15 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Gonna Miss You!!!
Message:
I hope you don't leave us for good...naaa too much of a family here.
If you do decide to have a rest, I want to express my love and thanks for all you have done to help me.
Your humour and understanding was a soft place for me to fall in a very hard time.
We'll meet again, Lots of love to you.
Bai Ji ********************************X
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 22:29:10 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: You don't actually BELIEVE him do you?
Message:
Check the the name tags next to the posts in a few months time.....you'll see 'Pat C' all over the shop.....

:)

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 03:10:05 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: See how trusting (gullible I am? (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:27:54 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Vivki and Steve, I'm retiring
Message:
Patty, my boy, speaking of saving, here's one for you:

Jesus Saves; Maharaji Spends

(please don't leave us)

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:39:43 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Words of Love
Message:
I won't stop yet, Steve. Not as long as this goes on. Just found this on Life is Great. Oh, boy. I need a shower quick.
[ Sir Dave's Premies Words of Love Page ]
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 00:44:30 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yuh c'n really feel his pain, cantcha?
Message:
Wow! Hooh! Zees cult-we-sullen feller ees really sufferin somethin fearce, aintee? Phew! Man oh man oh man, yuh c'n really feel his pain, cantcha? Und zees ees supposed to be zee fruits of hees massa's Knowledge? Got in himmel! Vot is zee vorlt comin to? Zees ees supposed to be vut bein a premie is all about??? Yucky pooh!!! Talk about rottin vegies! Sheesh! In mein umble opinion, zees feller ist veddy veddy poor in spirit. Him need big dose of Holy Name somethin fearce! Kinda brings to mind a favorite saying of mine: Two men looked out from prison bars; one saw mud; the other saw stars. Vee see vut vee vont to see. Dems dat vonts to feel peace, dat vut DEY see. Und dems dat vonts to see der sheist, dat vut DEY see! Yup! Dat vut DEY see! Teef half spoken. No prayers for you Herr Cult-we-sullen.
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 21:02:17 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Words of Love
Message:
PatC, thanks for pointing out that page. Having been on the receiving end of some of their 'chants of love' over the last year or two, I find that the evidence of their love is just growing and growing. Don't you agree? BWAH HA HA HA HA.

Shroom MUST be on drugs with a statement like this: 'I wonder what your lives would have been like if you had never heard about Knowledge or Maharaji. Many of you would have died of overdoses or been in jail or loveless marriages or careers.'

Loveless? Loveless? Yeah he is certainly oozing THAT love. I mean, how could you miss THAT love just gushing forth when he called JohnT a 'fuc_ing toady creep.' What a marooooon!

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:01:22 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Shroomananda
Message:
It's true I've been the target of some considerable vitriol, including from Shroomananda, as you have seen.

He really was a complete pain in the bottom, the way he spammed Forum VI (I think it was). He just would not let go and go away. And in those days we were not able to trace trolls and take legal action or threaten to expose their antics. Lacking such a recourse there was not much option but to toast the miscreant to a crisp.

So it is true, as Tonette avers, that he was provoked. But only because of his own repeated baiting of exes and spamming of the forum.

If you really have now exited Shroomananda, and you are reading this, my most hearty congratulations! It was clearly not an easy thing to do.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:59:31 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Shroomananda
Message:
'If you really have now exited Shroomananda, and you are reading this, my most hearty congratulations! It was clearly not an easy thing to do.' HERE, HERE! :)

I hope I didn't make it more difficult for this person, if indeed the above is true. Having your words thrown in your face, after making a decision of that magnitude, would be pretty hard to take (and embarrasing). If so, my apologies to shroom.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:46:46 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: He was posting as shroom
Message:
Way before you came here. I think it was summer 1999. Might be off a year but I don't think so.

So you could not of done anything to insult him. Shroom was a real pain in the ass on the forum at that time. Worse than cat weasel!

And I was new to the forum, had no idea about forum etiquette, was just coming to terms with some real shit myself. And shroom, well, I guess you would have had to be there at the time.

I know he's out, because someone outed him on the forum and he does post here very gently on occassion.

Shroom, what a long strange trip it's been. No?

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:01:02 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: When I got here
Message:
Tonette, thanks for the info. I'm not as new to this site as you might think. I had to change my nom-de-plume due to the fact that there were so many using the same name while I was away (I took about a year off, I think). I come back and there's all these guys with the same first name...... he he he. It was kind of fortunate that 'New-Age Redneck' was bestowed on me before I left, so I had a built-in replacement. :)
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:35:42 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: so the question is......
Message:
What was your original name?
Don't worry, I have not the time nor inclination to go digging thru the archives.
Just curious. You can not dangle a carrott like that and have me not ask.

My new name is going to be vulture. You know it kinda fits, I just can't let go of something that is either dead or dying.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 11:47:46 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: so the question is......
Message:
Well, it was 'Mike'..... the original (I think). You might remember me.... I was the 'he he he' and BWAH HA HA guy. Sorry, I like to laugh. No, actually I'm not sorry I like to laugh. :)
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 04:47:11 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Hey, I'm not a bitch anymore!
Message:
I'm an inhuman, insensitive, heartless vulture instead. Do you think I'm coming up in the world?

Anyway, the good thing about shroom is I think he exited and I've seen him post here on occassion.
I've always been uncomfortable with that web page of hate. I really baited shroom with a post that was lude and vulgar and just as hateful. In actuality, I kinda got what I asked for. By showing only his reply to me is a bit unfair to shroom.
But it's water under the bridge and the net remembers. Got to be careful what you post.

Regards, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:52:07 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette and JohnT
Message:
Tonette and John, I wouldn't be too hard on yourselves for baiting a response. To use an axiom we've been using alot lately: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If these premies, who actually believe they are experiencing the 'greatest love and bliss,' wish to make that claim to fame, then they must be prepared to provide the evidence of same. Obviously, they have not, judging from their responses to taunts.

In retrospect, I think it entirely appropriate to 'challenge' those claims, since they are SO extraordinary. If the only way to challenge the claim to 'liberation' is to taunt, then so be it.

Quite frankly, Tonette and JohnT, I've never seen an ex taunt to the level that deserves a response that is all-to-common from premies. Remember Vietnam Steve? He was my 'special' guy.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:13:48 (EST)
From: Fan
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Jesus save, Maharaji spends
Message:
Just posting it up in the subject box for appropriate kudos
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:05:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Great post to wake up to. Thanks, Vicki [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:38:07 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Another international Ex gathering
Message:
Greetings from Seattle. Another international group of former followers of the former Living Perfect Master met today for Indian and Middle Eastern food. As before, no alcohol was consumed so we hesitate to call this an official Latvian event.

Jim H. and Laurie represented Canada, Mercedes represented South America, Joy represented the United Kingdom and Richard was the US delegate. Pictured L to R are Richard, Jim, Mercedes and Laurie. Joy declined to appear so she took the photo. I'm thinking she didn't want anyone to see her new blonde bomshell disguise. It's absolutely fabulous darling and sure to net her a front row seat.

Because these international 'events' are becoming more frequent, we would like to propose a huge international gathering November '03 in the Astrodome. What with maybe 50,000 people having received K over the years in the states alone, the event should be able to draw a decent crowd of Ex's. Maybe even matching the crowd of 425 that originally showed up in '73.

It's been said by others but it really is fun to meet up with the folks who we've chatted with on the forum. We agreed that we missed the community of great people that came together to save the world. Friendship is a good thing wherever you find it. Just hearing everyone's M & K story eye to eye is priceless.

Richard
Pacific Northwest Church Laddie and Millennium 2003 Steering Committee
[ Latvian Feast NW ]

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:10:23 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Sounds like an aspirant Latvian night to me
Message:
I should do more than hesitate if I were you,
'As before, no alcohol was consumed so we hesitate to call this an official Latvian event.'
A Latvian night by definition of our Latvian head guru JHB stipulates that large quantities of alcohol should be consumed, a raucous vibe should ensue, preferably something close to violence or outrageous behaviour or the like should happen, and everyone should feel COMPLETELY rat-arsed the next day, and a really good time be had by all.

Looks like the last part was completed, but the others not even a hint of, tut tut.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:08:35 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Millennium 2003 Steering Committee
Message:
Hey - great idea! Millennium 2003.

Are there any positions available on the steering committee for people missing 'that' experience of 'participation?'

Would we have metal detectors at the door. Or some other kind of detectors?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:18:50 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Yes, Disculta
Message:
In fact we do need truly dedicated folks for many areas. Since you asked about security, would you head up the Vibe and Attitude Screening Committee? Your group would be stationed around the Astrodome to make sure everyone was appropriately cynical and not at all serious. Only the truly witty and irreverant should be allowed to pass. Exceptions will be made upon verbal request to the Whiners and Loosers Committee.

If you don't mind, you'll be paying your own way or hitching a ride on the Green Turtle bus and sleeping on the floor of a decommissioned Evian bottling plant.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:14:10 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Wow! THe grace!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:15:09 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Damn, that was my cat on the keys again!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:17:19 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Really Richard!?
Message:
I can pay my own way and sleep on the floor?

I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!

But will my security position get me closer to THAT experience of irreverence?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 20:01:42 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I want to know how I get to sit in the front? (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:45:53 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: By being the 'most cynical,' of course!
Message:
My request to the whiners committee:

I wanna go in the bug, ok? I hitched the last time and my arse got really sore from sitting on concrete waiting for rides. Besides, who would offer a ride to someone my age? Can I go in the bug, can I, can I?

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 12:51:18 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: By being the 'most cynical,' of course!
Message:
NAR,
Joy was referring to my first post that talked about her new blonde bombshell look (kidding of course). I was too subtly saying that, as a buxom blonde, Joy could get a front row seat and thereby embarrass you-know-who.

Of course you can ride in the bug this time. Call 1-800-RIDEABUG and you and 11 other ex's will be assigned to one for a low low cost of $1200 (US funds only).

The Whiners and Riders Committee

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:13:04 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Ohhhhhhh.....
Message:
As you probably know, I was thinking front-row at the millenium festival.... he he he :)

I vote Jim, front row center! I know I'll take heat for that one!

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 13:56:26 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: Ohhhhhhh.....
Message:
I thought that's what you meant, just trying to salvage my original intent.

At Millarkium 2003 (new name), every seat will be a front row seat. The Equal Opportunity Seating Committee is working on this right now. As for Jim, we were hoping his band would perform. Can't you see Jim in a sparkly Blue Aquarius inspired tux? Instead of Blue Aquarius, the group could be Blue Atheists or Blue Satyugans.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 21:59:55 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Blue Atheists, rock on [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:14:08 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Wow! THe grace!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:17:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Do you guys do anything but EAT?(NT)
Message:
:) :) :)
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:59:17 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Do you guys do anything but EAT/ :)
Message:
Yes Joe, we also planned the eventual worldwide domination of . . . (oops, can say no more. Contact me via carrier pigeon.) I'll be at lunch from 11 to 3.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:10:07 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Richard's a Hobbit
Message:
He has to have his second breakfast.
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 04:26:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Another international Ex gathering
Message:
Thanks Richard for the report and Joy for the pic. I'm sure certain cultweasels look at the pics hoping to see the exes looking like rotting vegetables or at least like that that woman in the movie, ''Brazil;'' you know, the one whose plastic surgery keeps going wrong and she has bloody bandages holding up bits of her face so they don't fall into her soup at the ladies' club.

Instead what do we see but some rather contented, healthy looking middle-aged folks having lunch. Wish there was more of Laurie's face. What little I see of it makes me think she's someone I would like a lot but I must say I was shocked to see Jim wearing a baseball cap at the table.

Sorry, I guess I really am an old fogey but I've always found the New World habit of wearing hats indoors crass - especially while dining. Hats are for bald old farts like me to wear outdoors to keep warm in winter and stop liver spots on the dome syndrome in summer.

Unless of course they are Ascot hats which are welcome everywhere except at the opera. Now, if only you would pin a stuffed pigeon and a bunch of plastic cherries on your cap, Jim, you would not upset Miss Manners.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:54:56 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Another international Ex gathering
Message:
Yes, indeed, thank you, what a great idea! The other 'out-of-the-closet' Mpls ex, Anandaji, and myself have talked about such a gathering of exes in emails to each other. Such a gathering would give us all the chance to see and experience for ourselves that we can generate the kind of 'high' we used to as premies at festivals WITHOUT M. This would be dynamite information and confirmation for all of us that the benefits of K have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with M.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:36:54 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: The real Lord is still at the top
Message:
See above link for full story.

Incidentally. while I did have an outburst of emotion on ''Life Is Great'' today, I realise that there is not the best place to post about such things. However, that's how emotions are isn't it - not always in the right place at the right time.
[ My Sweet Lord ]

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:04:40 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He's so fine,doo lang doo lang... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 04:37:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I wish the archives were on-line....
Message:
.....so I could link to that long thread we had last spring which degenerated into one liners such as Doo lang doo lang. Actually I think you started it, such. I know Sir Dave was an enthusiastic contributor. It was during the pre-CAC love fest when everyone posted their names and pics. It was much longer than the chai recipe thread.

Thooooose were the daaaaays.

Well, dear sweet naive Sir Dave, I think you found out what a snake pit LG is.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:31:49 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: r.e. ramma lama's ding-dong
Message:
yeah, that was fun. i didn't save it - so, can't pull that thread up, either.

btw, who put the bip in the bop?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 15:44:50 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: who put the bip in the bop?
Message:
Definitely not the same guy who put the cacroach in the cornflakes.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 21:15:05 (EST)
From: someone should look into this ...
Email: None
To: All
Subject: it boggles the mind.
Message:
Australia's Department of Emergency Services' SES volunteers erect tents for 'guru' Maharaji event and get paid $32AU for each tent erected. Scroll down to 'Tent city boggles mind'.
[ SES News ]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 06:27:18 (EST)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: someone should look into this ...
Subject: Re: it boggles the mind.
Message:
I can't see anything...buaaaa
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 07:05:20 (EST)
From: Other link is PDF ...
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: this one is in html.
Message:
It's a little messy, but the same.
[ Tent city boggles the mind ]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 07:52:18 (EST)
From: and then
Email: None
To: Other link is PDF ...
Subject: scroll down to page 7. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:47:17 (EST)
From: mercedes
Email: None
To: someone should look into this ...
Subject: Re: it boggles the mind.
Message:
So now they need outside volunteers to do work that pwk's should be doing. Very interesting.
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 08:26:21 (EST)
From: MathMan
Email: None
To: mercedes
Subject: Re: it boggles the mind.
Message:
27,200 Australian Dollars

Where are all the slave premies?

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:14:24 (EST)
From: Bodhi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New Festerings Afoot
Message:
Just received a rumour that m is up for an Humanitarian Award in either Time or Life mag.
Something to do with most successful humanitarian Leader etc etc.

Also he has a TV show or special airing soon.
Anyone know anything more re this?

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 06:28:59 (EST)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: Bodhi
Subject: Re: New Festerings Afoot
Message:
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFO? if this is true I will stay up day and night e-mailing the world PRESS about this CREEP!

FUCK YOU MAHARAJI!

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 04:45:29 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bodhi
Subject: Wishful thinking
Message:
I heard that rumor too about a month ago and I think Roupell posted it on LG a month ago too. The diehards are praying for a miracle to prove that they aren't in a cult.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 22:43:34 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bodhi
Subject: Hysterical....
Message:
Yeah right. :) What a joke.

Actually, I wish it were true he was angling for something like that, because it would bring lots of publicity to M, 95% of it negative, because what else is there to say?

No, cult leaders do not get humanitarian awards. Even Sung Myung Moon, who bought the Washington Times and gave oodles of money to conservative causes couldn't get one.

A TV Show or special? What drugs are you on?

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:40:47 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Bodhi
Subject: Re: New Festerings Afoot
Message:
Great news if true. He's putting his head above the parapet.

He must really believe he's God if he thinks he can carry off his bullshit in an International news mag. Roll on the day. The editors of those types of publication hate being embarrassed above all else.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:40:14 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Media coverage
Message:
Has anyone ever tried to feed the real story about m to the press?

Kid wonder comes from India, convinces thousands that he is LOTU; dons a Krishna outfit; marries a stewardess; sued by mother and brother; brother becomes rival perfect master; Maharaji does drugs drinks; runs over a biker in India and blames it on someone else;bilks followers for millions; now hundreds (thousands?) are coming to their senses; fight to expose the truth; M tries to supress the revelations by hacking computer sites and spreading false rumors about rebels.

Garages filled with expensive cars; $45 million airplane; $10 million
boat, mansions.

Have at it Mike Wallace. Chase him around with a microphone while fending off the church ladies.

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:30:38 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Bodhi
Subject: Re: New Festerings Afoot
Message:
If this is at all true, someone needs to contact these people and let them know that there is another side of m they need to examine. And often these 'awards' have a financial aspect to them; an organization can 'buy' an award for their leader. Of course it's not called a purchase, but in effect that's how it happens.

TV Show idea: 'Survivor:People Who Escaped the Guru' Crowd a bunch of innocent ex-hippies into communal living quarters and have them follow the orders of a 14 year old boy who has told them he is greater than god. See who gets kicked out, who falls in love, who makes it to the top of the heap, who is sexually molested, who escapes...

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 06:32:49 (EST)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: great idea
Message:
but who is going to do something/
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:44:19 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Bravo! What time's it on? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:55:26 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: New Festerings Afoot
Message:
Humanitarian award for what???? Just making sure the hygine conditions at the ashram in India are up to western standards??? That's nothing, this person hasn't done anything humanitarian for anybody. Argggrrrr!!! It really makes me mad.
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 20:33:07 (EST)
From: Sally J Raphael
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Sounds good housemum!- contact my people [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 07:47:05 (EST)
From: calling Michael Murphy....
Email: None
To: Sally J Raphael
Subject: Great! Just what M needs now...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:23:59 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: blind faith
Message:
A thought. I had a look at an anti-Sai Baba site the other day to see what's going on there. (Easy to find - there's loads of them. Just type in 'anti' and 'Sai Baba' at Google, and up comes lots of stuff.) Anyway, there are all these ex Sai Baba devotees there telling anguished tales of Sai Baba sexually abusing young boys and men, which has apparently been going on for years and years. They tell stories of how even when they knew it was happening or experienced it themselves, they tried to explain it away by putting it down to Sai Baba's inexplicable divine ways etc.....

I have a close friend who is a Sai Baba devotee. I thought: 'I must tell her this.' Then I tried to anticipate her reaction, and of course it'll be this: 'Oh for god's sake you didn't believe all THAT, did you? Those people are seriously screwed up, they don't meditate, they've lost their faith, they've fallen into maya, you don't want to believe any of that!!!'

I know for a fact she won't even want to check out the site and examine these allegations. BECAUSE SHE DAREN'T RISK JEAPORDISING HER FAITH. In the last few days I have suggested to a couple of premies that they at least check out EPO sometime. Surely if their experience is true and genuine they need have nothing to fear. But their reaction is rigid and fearful. 'Why would I want to look at that?' said one. 'Why would I want to swim around in all that muck?' 'How do you know it's muck if you don't look?' I responded, reasonably enough you'd think. But no, they are definitely afraid to look, because they DON'T WANT THEIR FAITH SHAKEN.

They would see this clearly in my Sai Baba devotee friend, but it is virtually impossible for them to see it in themselves, because the brainwashing runs so very, very deep.

Any thoughts?

With love to you all, Livia

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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 23:57:50 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: blind faith
Message:
Here's why: Some frogs just DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THE SECURITY OF THEIR WELL. They are petrified of the unknown - even when told that there is an incredible ocean topside, a short distance from their well, that is millions of times bigger and better than their stupid little well. Exes are risk-takers...and they have loads of courage. Not everyone does.
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 13:27:42 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: More on the frog, his well and the EPO ocean
Message:
Here's why: Some frogs just DO NOT WANT TO LEAVE THE SECURITY OF THEIR WELL. They are petrified of the unknown - even when told that there is an incredible ocean topside, a short distance from their well, that is millions of times bigger and better than their stupid little well. Exes are risk-takers...and they have loads of courage. Not everyone does.


---

If you'll bear with me, I'd like to expand on the Frog in the Well versus the Frog and the Ocean a bit further.

Until I learned about and started reading the EPO website, I loved M deeply. I won't say I attributed everything nice that happened to me to him, but I did think of him a lot and actually gave him credit (as in silently praying: 'thank you M' to myself) for a lot of it. I really and truly believed he was controlling my experiences, what premies used to call lilas. Several local Minneapolis premies, if they are honest about it, can attest to my love and devotion for him. I attended many festivals back in the 70's, including Guru Puja '73 in London and Hans Jayanti '77 in Rome. I used to keep a little 2 inch by 3 inch color photo of him in his Krishna crown in my wallet. I blew it up to 8 inch by 11 inches and personally hand-delivered about 8 or 9 copies to some of the more active Minneapolis premies. I composed some pretty good devotional poems and prose sayings of my own out of my own inspiration and devotion and handed or mailed these out to many people. And, while my practical, conservative side kept me from diverting precious retirement money to travelling to M's programs, I regularly attended video programs, supported Mpls Resources, practiced K (well, at least Holy Name) and maintained a very tight and $upportive friendship with a local premie whose name I won't mention here. Quite frankly, it was the devotion of this premie for M that kept me from exing early, I'm sure of it. Anyone who knew me knew that I loved M and K back then, very much.

Then, by accident, really, I happened to learn about EPO (from a premie) and I tuned in to it. Because I had lived in many other communities besides Minneapolis, most notably Toronto and Denver, I recognized the names of a number of the individuals (most notably Dettmers and Mishler) who had done major revelations. I had no reason to doubt their veracity. What they and others said was absolutely horrifying and shocking to me. After I recovered from the initial shock, I grew very angry that the whole thing I had involved myself in had been nothing more than an evil con game to mind-fuck me into giving M my money to make him rich and allow him to be worshipped like God. In short, a cult. It made me very very VERY angry. At M. Not at the vast majority of his premie victims. At M - and to a lesser extent, to a few of his closest PAM's who, it sounded like, knew better but stuck around anyway to bask in the trickledown of his stolen wealth. The phrase: 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned' aint nothin compared to the fury (and, dare I say, rage) felt by former premies who realize how M has taken them for a ride, a very greedy and cruel brainwashing ride. Now this is coming from me, a married person, who never even made the total commitment that those who joined the ashram did. I can't imagine how incredibly ANGRY, REALLY REALLY ANGRY they must feel. They must be absolutely FURIOUS! Especially those like Marianne who were prevented from visiting their families during extremely stressful, family emergency situations. I mean, I can't imagine how incredibly hurt and angry they must be or have been.

It is this kind of hurt, anger and bitter resentment that has fueled those of us who have exed, those of us who have made a complete break with M and his followers (both the vast majority of (relatively innocent, unsuspecting) Hitler Jugen premies whose devotion I respect and for whom I have compassion and the tiny minority of EPO-hacking, SS-Pseudo premies who I despise nearly as much as M) who choose to ignore (or even attack) EPO and to continue worshipping M like God. It is this anger that I have noticed on EPO and that I too have indulged in. These people were hurt very very badly. They have a right to be angry. And thank God we live in a country that gives them the legal right to express their anger without fear of retribution or persecution by government or some other corporate entity. They are in various stages of trying to recover from M. They are going through a healing process to regain a sense of reality and wholeness to themselves that is not based upon M, his lies, and his cult. They are progressing as best as they can and the thing I've come to learn about progress is that it is not always a pretty sight. Something old has to be sacrificed, has to give to make way for something new. (Not exactly an original or profound idea - we've heard it before as: two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time).

The significance of all of this has a profound and unavoidable implication for myself. I have found during a personal interaction with my dear premie friend (who I still love dearly) after I exed that, since I had exed, the basis that had brought us together: mutual love for and devotion to M is gone. The premie felt hurt by my disdain (perhaps even hatred) of M and I felt estranged, weird, extremely awkward (as in: I do not belong here anymore) while in the presence of the premie. Both of us knew how the other felt. We did not argue with each other. We loved each other (then and still, I'm sure) but we were both aware that, under the circumstances, given what we knew about each other's feelings toward M, and given the emotional investment of nearly 30 years each of us had made in him, that there just was no point in seeing each other any more. It was just too painful for both of us. I want to emphasize that I don't criticize the premie for his/her beliefs in M and I'm sure the premie probably feels great sadness that we can no longer share the closeness we once did. I respect the premie's right to follow his/her heart and I'm sure he/she feels the same towards me. But the fact remains that the pain we felt during our last visit together made it unmistakenly clear that we were on VASTLY different paths now and there just was no point seeing each other again under the current circumstances. It is sad, but, hey, that's the way it is. I can't change that. We are both following our hearts but in different directions.

I'm mentioning all of this because I get the impression that some people in various stages of exing harbor some residual anger (or at least resentment) against the exes who have posted on EPO for the remarks that some have made about premies. Using myself as an example, I just got done saying that I felt that some premies are afraid of leaving their well of M/K/EV/premie community security to even check out the possibility that there might be a liberating EPO ocean out there. (This is a new take on an old story by M from the early 70's. M used it to illustrate the difficulty in convincing non-premies towards becoming premies. I used it here to illustrate the difficulty premies may have from becoming ex-premies.) I get the impression that some may be taking my newly applied analogy as a criticism of the premies, especially where they still wish to maintain friendship with them. I am not attacking any premie's sincerity. I KNOW they mean well. I do. I've been there. I know what it's like. I'm not attacking them. But, based upon the personal growth many (I won't include myself yet because I'm still new at this) have undergone since exing, I can see from studying their posts that exes have come to understand how evil, how restrictive, how insidious and how pervasive M's brainwashing was on them and others still trying to emerge from his evil grip.

For myself, I have come to realize that I can't have it both ways: being a premie and being a non-premie at the same time, nor do I want to. I know from my own experience that it can't be done. The chasm between believing in M and seeing through his lies is just way too vast a gorge to bridge by pretending that one side doesn't matter when dealing with the other side. In order to have a sense of personal integrity (being true to yourself and making, taking a stand as to what your values are), I don't see how anyone can expect to successfully play both sides, to ride the fence, as it were. I had to decide what I could and couldn't live with. (And, believe me, that was not easy, because, as diminished as the local community of premies was from the heyday of the 70's, it still represented my major source of social interaction. I am now in the process of building a whole new one.) For me, it became clear by Dec 9 of last year that that meant dumping M and all the lies and abominableness he represented. So, that's my attitude and the way I feel towards (non-SS-type) premies: with sadness but also compassion for their unrecognized suffering. And, I respect and will defend to the death, if necessary, their right to follow their hearts.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:32:35 (EST)
From: Ddermot
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Really fantastic post Steve
Message:
For a long time, certain premies I've known just haven't been in touch with me for quite some. People I was very close to. Well, to be fair, I haven't been in touch with them either!

However, I have kept in touch with some premies and I realise in their way they're following their heart, just as I am mine. One of these, the mother of my daughter, I keep in touch with once every little while and I just can't fault her. More than ANY other premie I've know she sincerely LOVES meditation and following from that M and his discourses. I know from my point of view I see the M aspect of that experience of her WRONG and IRRELEVANT but somehow I just can't get into a big showdown about it.

She's also brought up three truly wonderful, un-fucked up/un-Maharji brainwashed daughters too, in spite of her own total love for M and K, so I can't fault her there either.. I had to speak to her the other night on the phone (we live in different towns)because I had to relay some terribly tragic news and also just talk about our daughter who's trekking around Australia at the momentwith her boyfriend. I just didn't WANT to get into a big 'ex V premeie' thing with her. I kinda felt how I feel toward my Ma, who's a staunch Roman Catholic or to anyone who's got their own inner/religious point of view. Sort of like it was personal and nothing to do with me, even though I myself can't bear the Catholic church or M and his organisation anyymore.

I kinda allow myself more liberty online because it IS a public discussion board and the premies who post online are also going PUBLIC.I don't therefore compromise my views as a result but sometimes, especialy if I'm posting/communicating with a SINCERE premie....a non SS type as you put it....I sometimes feel like I'm bursting the 'bubble' of their innocence and It makes me feel a bit sorry for them. However, I also think the more online ones, the forum savvy ones , even if they are SINCERE, know the arguments that have been made and know the info on EPO. I think the arguments of exes are so convincing that somehow if exposed to them yet still blindly acquiesce to M, then they are just not totally facing up to things. In that sense then, in spite of my feeling a bit like a party pooper, I have no option but to state my case without regard for their PERSONAL path/religion whatever.

Funnily enough, I was thinking only last night , I have many premie friends who in every other regard are great people, sussed people but the blind spot for M as hteir master is their only cultish aspect.Once you've seen through M (and that isn't so easy....as Joe pointed out elsewhere, he's SOOO confident in his belief that he's the Master and DESERVES premies)it just seems so utterly ridiculous for these otherwise great people to be his APOLOGISTS , no matter what.

It's weird but ultimately as the old saying goes 'to thine own self be true'

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 20:35:08 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Ddermot
Subject: Dammit, keep putting 2 D's to my name [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 17:24:25 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Steve, this is great! BEST OF''nt
Message:
agf
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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 10:36:42 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I second that! Excellent, Steve! (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 14:04:23 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Thanks, Steve. Very well said. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 17:54:24 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Faith needs to be shaken
Message:
Any closed belief system needs a crack to prise it open. When I came to EPO, I think I had loads of cracks, so just reading EPO shattered to whole edifice. Your friends must have some cracks somewhere, but are afraid to go near them. Don't push them, it will happen. They know about the site now (which will be back soon), and one evening, when Maharaji's darshan is far away, and no one can see them, they will check out EPO and swim around in all the muck, and come up cleaner than ever:-)

John.

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Date: Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 01:52:21 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Faith needs to be shaken
Message:
I never pursuaded one person to come to K, and I don't feel I will be much better with this, especially with a lot of words and debate.

I came to EPO because one person, a practicing premie!, just happened to mention in passing that if you did a search for 'Maharaji' on the Net, there is a site there of ex-premies. Curiousity got to me and here I am.

Actually, I did get one premie (long out of active involvement) to have a look by simply emailing him with a simple message: 'Hey, Paul, check out ex-premie.org.' Lo and behold he did and we've been having some lively conversations.

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Date: Tues, Jan 22, 2002 at 19:08:55 (EST)
From: 007
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Faith needs to be shaken not stirred nt
Message:
[nt]
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