Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 23, 2002 To: Jan 27, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


Angela -:- a news flash!!! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:01:15 (EST)
__ Gina -:- He's The Round Mound of Profound! -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:54:38 (EST)
__ __ Gina -:- His book: The Profundity of Rotundity! -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:59:45 (EST)
__ Yogi Berra -:- Hey, that's one of my lines -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 06:33:33 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Another Yogi Berra quote: -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 10:04:34 (EST)
__ __ Prem-Yogi -:- A yogi-ism applied to M -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 06:58:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: A yogi-ism applied to M -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 00:11:05 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Such wisdom. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:28:59 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Such wisdom. -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 21:29:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Pullaver -:- Wisdom?? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 23:38:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Listen Pullmyfinger... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 01:31:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Constructive Criticism -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:13:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PMFJI but why did you write -:- G-d NT -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 06:50:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: G-d NT -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:06:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Good God, Dog! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:34:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Good God, Dog! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:19:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- giving an Irishman alcohol -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:04:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Wisdom? Anth will mind! [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 00:16:08 (EST)
__ __ Andrea Eriksonn -:- YES! And let's not forget... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:43:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- You tell them Ericson -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 21:18:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mahatma Coat -:- Bhole Shri! -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:16:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller Who Has Compassion -:- For Premies' Hearts But Disdain For Their Goo -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:10:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Umm, Steve? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:50:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Umm, Steve??? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:41:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Davidson -:- Munchbutt was too cute to be true? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:38:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- LOL! I didn't want to have to tell you -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:14:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: LOL! I didn't want to have to tell you -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:56:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Nah-let's bore them here (if they're reading) -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:46:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- cq, it's how many beans make five -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:59:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ StevieJi -:- Re: cq, it's how many beans make five -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 17:11:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- but ... but ... what about us retards? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 16:28:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Muchos grassias, Kelly -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:43:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Oh dear... -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 04:06:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Oh dear... -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 10:52:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Funds for Propagation -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:48:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob and Dot Munchbutt -:- Exactly, Andrea -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 04:17:26 (EST)

JHB -:- Contributing to EPO Finances -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:14:23 (EST)

OTS -:- Harry's Response to Tonette -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:37:29 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Criticism -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:36:23 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:08:21 (EST)
__ __ OTS -:- Apologizing -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 21:10:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- I love a person who can ... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:32:53 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Oops! OTS. Hell hath no fury.... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:43:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Here's the full quote... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:42:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Here's the full quote... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:09:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Sorry, no cigar -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 04:50:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You go WOMAN! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:35:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Tonette, Cynthia, OTS -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:21:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I hope OTS posts here all that he wants -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:00:47 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- Re: Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings? -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 18:40:16 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- I'm a Tonette fan ;) [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'm a Tonette fan, too...:) [nt] -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:36:51 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Just meditate, brother -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:20:47 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Tonette was completely right -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:17:22 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- But you're wrong, Jim -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:16:39 (EST)
__ Disculta -:- Yo OTS -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:57:32 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Please Don't Be Afraid of Me... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:36:41 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- The Forum is Ephemeral. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:36:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Have we met? You look familiar ;) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 21:06:22 (EST)
__ __ Gina -:- What an honest, compassionate response (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:17:59 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Re: Harry's Response to Tonette -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:08:13 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Aren't you up kinda late? (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:16:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- 12-20pm...late? Not really. [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- AM ...duhh [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Go to bed Dermot. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:41:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Across the pond folks..OT -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:51:52 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Not as late as me -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:17 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Hey OTS, WHOA -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:51:58 (EST)
__ housemum -:- careful shutting people up, OTS -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:31:02 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Very well said -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 18:02:42 (EST)
__ JHB -:- *** Best of Forum - Great Post, OTS *** -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:52:52 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- No - bad precedent, John.. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:12 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Of course you're right, Nige -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:36 (EST)

Mirror -:- Original Quotes... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:28:15 (EST)
__ Hal -:- Re: Original Quotes... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:19:52 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Self serving satsang -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:48:01 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Jezus H Christ on a bicycle - he said WHAT??? -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:00:18 (EST)
__ __ __ vicki -:- Sorry got it wrong.... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:50:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Same difference...LOL~ [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:53:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji is such a F!!king LOSER! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:30:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Loser? Cynth, he doesn't realise it -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:23:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Loser? Cynth, he doesn't realise it -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:28:44 (EST)

housemum -:- Best of Forums back up! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 12:54:35 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Why exactly are you going to miss Such? -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:44:00 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- Re: Why exactly are you going to miss Such? -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:55:26 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Substance on the Forum -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:16:17 (EST)
__ cq -:- Even better news! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:12:14 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- the original doesn't work for me (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:27:20 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- Well, if you must live in Outer Mongolia :)(nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:50:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- oh brother, where art thou? -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:59:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Housemum: That's funny... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:39:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Oh Brother = great movie OT -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:35:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Oh Brother = great movie OT -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 22:07:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Oh Brother = great movie OT -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:30:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Oh Brother -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:11:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Oh Brother- LOL -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:07:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Housemum: That's funny... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:41:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I heard that movie is great -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:18:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Blue grass, never smoked that -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:32:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Love that movie, too -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:20:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Housemum: YES! I loved the music [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:46:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ah, sister-ji, you still living in that duality? -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:02:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- in my mind as always -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:20:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: in my mind as always -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:11:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Ouch! Our minds did get dissed didn't they?! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:52:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- pretense is his game, no doubt -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:06:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- No doubt. No faith. -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:37:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- the knowledge you can get in college -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:00:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- it burns, burns, burns ... -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:59:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Johnny Cash's Karma -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:29:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- and Johnny-come-lately's Karma -:- Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:48:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- www.ex-premie.org -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:29:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: www.ex-premie.org -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:37:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- It takes a little time! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:09:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- fyi, Mr. Server finally reach here (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:25:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- okay luv, thank you! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:12:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Attention Computer Nerds! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:38:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- no go -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:59:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: no go: Go for me... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:48:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- It's working now! Ta! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:51:20 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Hallelujah!!! -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:17:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Works on Google/Cult Attempts at Priority -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:26:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I love Google and I guess I must... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:59:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- No hurry, Cynth... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:21:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: No hurry, Cynth... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 18:58:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- 'no such efforts'??? -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:14:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I did a search on Google, don't laugh... -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:05:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, John -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:36:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Sorry, John -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:56:46 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hackers beware -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:14:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hear! Hear! Marianne [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:02:42 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:01:15 (EST)
From: Angela
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a news flash!!!
Message:
This from rawat's website: ''you can do so much because you are alive.'' I know everyone will want to write that one down. Who knew? And here I was, waiting to die, just so I could do so much. Well, it's a big load off my shoulders to know that since I am alive, I can do stuff. Wow. What a relevation! What a life-changing concept! Oops, bad word, there. Concept, I mean. Hmmm
---

---
-thought? Another no-no, right? So, basically, thinking of any kind is bad, and if rawat can keep his devotees from thinking they will swallow this sort of bilge forever? Obviously, he thought that one through very thoroughly. Very Catholic Church there. No thinking allowed. Good job, rawat.
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:54:38 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Angela
Subject: He's The Round Mound of Profound!
Message:
(with apologies to NBA great Charles Barkley, who was The Round Mound of Rebound.)
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:59:45 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: His book: The Profundity of Rotundity!
Message:
(with apologies to everyone everywhere for such lame stuff as this.)
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 06:33:33 (EST)
From: Yogi Berra
Email: None
To: Angela
Subject: Hey, that's one of my lines
Message:
The fat little guru has plagerized one of my quotes: 'You can observe alot, just by watching.' Well, here's another one of mine for you: 'It's never over, 'til it's over.' Is that a fat lady I hear singing in the background?
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 10:04:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Yogi Berra
Subject: Another Yogi Berra quote:
Message:
'Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded.'
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 06:58:06 (EST)
From: Prem-Yogi
Email: None
To: Yogi Berra
Subject: A yogi-ism applied to M
Message:
How about this one?

90% of practicing knowledge is satsang,service and meditation.

The other half is worshipping the guru....

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 00:11:05 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Prem-Yogi
Subject: Re: A yogi-ism applied to M
Message:
Yogi Berra:

'Think! How the hell are you gonna think and hit at the same time?'

Once, Yogi's wife Carmen asked, 'Yogi, you are from St. Louis, we live in New Jersey, and you played ball in New York. If you go before I do, where would you like me to have you buried?' Yogi replied, 'Surprise me.'

'Do you mean now?' -- When asked for the time.

Steve Wright:

Whenever I think about the past, it just brings back so many memories.

Is it weird in here, or is it just me?

I got up one morning and couldn't find my socks, so I called Information. She said, 'Hello, Information.' I said, 'I can't find my socks.' She said, 'They're behind the couch.' And they were!

What do batteries run on?

I watched the Indy 500, and I was thinking that if they left earlier they wouldn't have to go so fast.

Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?

When I woke up this morning my wife asked me, 'Did you sleep well?' I said, 'No, I made a few mistakes.'

I bought this thing for my car. You put it on your car, it sends out this little noise, so when you drive through the woods, deer won't run in front of your car. I installed it backwards by accident. Driving down the street with a herd of deer chasing me. Those were the days.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:28:59 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Angela
Subject: Such wisdom.
Message:
It should be carved in stone, alongside his other gems, like, 'It's good to breathe.' and 'Being happy is better than being miserable'.

He's so wise, shit, he could be a Buddha or something.

Anth, shit, I nearly forgot to breathe again.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 21:29:47 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Such wisdom.
Message:
Anth,

If you follow your heart only good will happen to you, you are protected. After a few valleys and mountain tops you will begin to realize that G-d is there, the supreme power is always there. What seemed random and chaotic actually has some rhyme and reason to it.

It's difficult for a being attached to their rational mind to realize that the universe is perfectly designed and that everything is perfect just the way it is, and that it is unfolding as it should.

It's like the painting in the Sistine Chapel where the hands of G-d and the man are just about to touch. It's at the moment when the despair is deepest, when you reach up, that the grace descends, and you realize that you are okay just the way you are, and that life is tolerable.

And later, when you think back about this experience you say, 'What the fuck was that all about.'

Hope this helps.

Deputy Dog

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 23:38:43 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Wisdom??
Message:
I hope Anth won't mind me jumping in here and responding on his behalf. The first question that comes to mind is why on earth are you writing this to Anth? What did he say in his post that would prompt you to write this? But since you did, let's have a look at it. I really don't want to be sarcastic or be hurtful but I have read a number of your previous posts and exchanges and I notice you seem to be carrying around a lot of 'spiritual baggage'. Try thinking for yourself and leaving behind all the new age pseudo-aphorisms you have been tanking up on all these years. I think you are under the mistaken impression that you are contributing little pearls of wisdom here.

You said:

If you follow your heart only good will happen to you, you are protected.
All the people posting here were following their hearts when they started following teletubby - so much for only good will happen. The people at Jonestown were surely just following their hearts as well. No, Dog this is just yet another example of how you continue to spew platitudes and cliches without thinking for yourself.

After a few valleys and mountain tops you will begin to realize that G-d is there, the supreme power is always there. What seemed random and chaotic actually has some rhyme and reason to it. How so? Why have you arrived at the conclusion that there is rhyme and reason to what could very well be the result of random chaos? What is this rhyme and reason and how do you know it? Because of your meditation experience? In other words, you are drawing conclusions that have been fed to you and you are just parroting them back. Why on earth would you be saying this to Anth of all people?

It's difficult for a being attached to their rational mind to realize that the universe is perfectly designed and that everything is perfect just the way it is, and that it is unfolding as it should. If the planet should be destroyed tomorrow in a massive unleashing of atomic weapons or another humongous asteroid, will you be sitting in your living room thinking that the universe is unfolding as it should? If everything is perfect the way it is as you say, then why bother with knowledge (which in your last post you said you are defending)? How does being in a meditative state infer an empirical understanding about the nature of the universe? You are merely regurgitating concepts that have been fed to you and everyone here surely has heard ad nauseum. Talk about a Hallmarks Card understanding of metaphysics and philosophy, sorry.

It's like the painting in the Sistine Chapel where the hands of G-d and the man are just about to touch. It's at the moment when the despair is deepest, when you reach up, that the grace descends, and you realize that you are okay just the way you are, and that life is tolerable.
This statement is such a convoluted jumble of concepts. Why are you drawing these conclusions? Why does Michelangelo's depiction of man reaching up to touch the hand of God denote that man is in despair? Perhaps it is you that despairs. Why not hope or love or humility? Grace descending? Anyway, your last bit is almost acceptable. You are okay just the way you are, (in truth most of us need to do some poking around before we could arrive at that conclusion) if you would but know it. And if you do accept yourself life is not just tolerable, it's (wait for it) enjoyable.

And later, when you think back about this experience you say, 'What the fuck was that all about.'
My sentiments exactly when I read this post of yours.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 01:31:37 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Listen Pullmyfinger...
Message:
I hope Anth won't mind me jumping in here and responding on his behalf. The first question that comes to mind is why on earth are you writing this to Anth? What did he say in his post that would prompt you to write this?

Anth might not mind your jumping in here, but I do. Fuck off!

But since you did, let's have a look at it.

The post was for Anth. Let’s fuck off, and say we did.

I really don't want to be sarcastic or be hurtful but I have read a number of your previous posts and exchanges and I notice you seem to be carrying around a lot of 'spiritual baggage'.

I don’t care what you think. This post was intended for Anth!

Try thinking for yourself and leaving behind all the new age pseudo-aphorisms you have been tanking up on all these years.

What?

I think you are under the mistaken impression that you are contributing little pearls of wisdom here.

And your posts about Macs are so illuminating?

No, Dog this is just yet another example of how you continue to spew platitudes and cliches without thinking for yourself.

Jeez I stand corrected. You incredible wisdom cowers me.

Why have you arrived at the conclusion that there is rhyme and reason to what could very well be the result of random chaos?

What kind of an asshole are you?

What is this rhyme and reason and how do you know it? Because of your meditation experience? In other words, you are drawing conclusions that have been fed to you and you are just parroting them back. Why on earth would you be saying this to Anth of all people?

I’m just parroting them back. You saw right through me.

If the planet should be destroyed tomorrow in a massive unleashing of atomic weapons or another humongous asteroid, will you be sitting in your living room thinking that the universe is unfolding as it should?

Yes, and who wouldn’t.

If everything is perfect the way it is as you say, then why bother with knowledge (which in your last post you said you are defending)?

Duh…maybe that’s how you get in touch with the perfection?

How does being in a meditative state infer an empirical understanding about the nature of the universe? You are and everyone here surely has heard ad nauseum. Talk about a Hallmarks Card understanding of metaphysics and philosophy, sorry.

You're right, I’m merely regurgitating concepts that have been fed to me. Oh, and by the way, fuck off!

Why are you drawing these conclusions? Why does Michelangelo's depiction of man reaching up to touch the hand of God denote that man is in despair?

Why else would someone reach out for G-d?

Perhaps it is you that despairs. Why not hope or love or humility? Grace descending? Anyway, your last bit is almost acceptable. You are okay just the way you are, (in truth most of us need to do some poking around before we could arrive at that conclusion) if you would but know it. And if you do accept yourself life is not just tolerable, it's (wait for it) enjoyable.

Almost acceptable! Gee thanks. I’ll check in with you next time I need to find out what I’m experiencing.

And later, when you think back about this experience you say, 'What the fuck was that all about.'
My sentiments exactly when I read this post of yours.

Well make this the last post of mine you read. Listen Pullmyfinger, there is only one Jim, and you don’t come close. And this post was intended for Anth, with whom I have joked around with for years. Not you! So butt out, you little prick! You are obviously lost in the melodrama playing sandlot ball. If my posts annoy you, don’t read them.

The unmitigated audacity!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:13:07 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: pullaver@yahoo.ca
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Constructive Criticism
Message:
Dog,

Surely we are grown up enough to be able to engage in an actual discussion or defence of our beliefs. You've stated a number of concepts here on this open forum and I have challenged you on them. Instead of responding in a knee-jerking emotional fashion why not try defending your statements. I don't mind engaging in a bit of mud-slinging if at least there is a debate or some kind of constructive criticism taking place. Constructive in the sense that we are forced to more closely examine our core belief systems with the possibility of learning/growing. If you come here saying the things that you do I think you should expect to be challenged. You are free to criticize me but please try responding with substance instead of just piss and vinegar.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 06:50:17 (EST)
From: PMFJI but why did you write
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: G-d NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:06:26 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PMFJI but why did you write
Subject: Re: G-d NT
Message:
G-d is that which is beyond form. The word God is merely form. When one meditates one goes beyond form to G-d, the formless. Not to the concept of G-d, but to G-d Itself.

Hebrews write God as G-d, because it isn't speakable, it is the unspeakable source of it all. I'm not Jewish but I like that idea.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:34:06 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Good God, Dog!
Message:
I've never seen this side to you. So angry! Great! I love it! Seriously. It means you are no longer a whipped cur. Good for you.

Of course what you call God, I call my brain. It's all there, Dog. It's all in your very own brain, everything. Have fun. :C)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:19:13 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Good God, Dog!
Message:
Thanks PatC,

I just re-read my post. Whoa! You can now make a good case for never giving an Irishman alcohol. Glad you found it funny though.

My post, which was intended for Anth as a spoof or humourous vignette, was highjacked. At the time I was really steamed.

You seem like a compassionate guy. True compassion is letting people be the way they are.

Take care.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:04:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: giving an Irishman alcohol
Message:
I know all about that, Dog. I never touch hard liquor (only wine) anymore because I just have to pick a fight when I'm drunk on booze. It's essential - I'm quarter Irish. ;)

Have you heard this old saying? ''Alcohol made from grains evokes barnyards animals. Alcohol made from grapes evokes the Muses.''

I loved your post because the only side I have seen to you so far has been so pious and it was a treat to see you shed that fake humility that we all had as little squashed premies. We swallowed our words and suppressed our real opinions for too many years being devotees of the fake living lord.

I think you are going to turn out to be quite funny once you shake off the fake piety. :)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 00:16:08 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Wisdom? Anth will mind! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:43:15 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: YES! And let's not forget...
Message:
...one of my personal favorites from Maharaji, ''Listen to your Heart, not your Brain-Fart''. Isn't it special? You will NEVER here such gems of wisdom from phoney ''Teachers'' like Mother Terasa, with her poverty conciousness, or that boring old Dolly Lama, who thinks it's OK to question the Master (the REAL Master would NEVER say that!).

- Andrea Ericson,
Who never filters out the good, just the bad stuff you naughty ex-students say about my beloved Goom-waji.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 21:18:52 (EST)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: You tell them Ericson
Message:
I don't know what is wrong with these ex-premies. One has to constantly be reminded to breathe and that, being alive, you can do things, and stuff. This is why you need a master, who has never claimed to be God, and which is head of something which is so NOT a cult, I get goosbumps just thinking about it.

Why, I even bought a watch from Visions that, instead of numbers, says 'every breath' constantly reminding me to breathe. I can't tell you how many times that has saved my life so that, being alive, I can do more than if I was dead, like breathe. It so beautiful to have that understanding.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:16:27 (EST)
From: Mahatma Coat
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Bhole Shri!
Message:
Jai satchitanand dear brothers and sisters.

Mahatma ji is just totally blissing out when you write such divine quotes of my dear Sant Ji Maharaj. I just being so happy that many of you are walking back in the door that is always open by His Grace.

It is so true that we must be reminded to breathe. Back when this old wandering sadhu was saved from the chillum culture and received the Holy Knowledge of God, I was told to constantly meditate and remember holy name. Not whenever I felt like it but constantly. Now dear Sant Ji has made it so very easy for me and my dear brothers and sisters to remember. All we have to do, by His Grace, is to remember being like small helpless child sitting in swing chair. Then close your eyes and you can feel GuruJi gently pushing the swing. So simple.

And as another dear brother was saying, Guru Maharaj Ji is always with us, even at the last breath. So when you are, how you say in America, kicking the bucket, He will be there to catch your bucket and guide you through the blue tunnel to the light. I once heard a very wise old mahatma say this story so it must be true.

Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj ki jai!

Your brother in bliss,
Mahatma Coat

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:10:41 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller Who Has Compassion
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: For Premies' Hearts But Disdain For Their Goo
Message:
Pauline (and Andrea Eriksonn and Mahatma Coat, as well),

I know you probably meant well ... boldly venturing into strange new territory ... where few regular, massa-worshiping premies have gone before ... but, Pauline, my dear, sit thee down for a spell and have a listen up to a rather interesting little story I'd like to pass on to you ...

Seventeen years ago my computer consulting work brought me into contact with a serene, peaceful fellow, an immigrant from India. I told him at that time that I was a follower of the Goo. I never did understand his sad look and furrowed brows and I felt hurt that he was not so overjoyed and thrilled to death at hearing my good news that he would have pranamed me and kissed the ground at my feet in gratitude from having just learned that the (freakin) Lord of the Universe himself (in case you weren't around back in the early 70's, my dear, that is EXACTLY how M was passing himself off - as nothing less than a touchable, darshanable, today-in-the-flesh Jesus, justa bustin out all over the place with divinity) had made the great sacrifice of leaving that comfortable, divine country club of a home of all the other perfect masters up in heaven and had deigned to come down to earth one more time just to satisfy the sincere cravings of innocent, well-meaning, gullible, unsuspecting, ordinary people like you and me. Back then I never did understand this Indian immigrant's sad eyes. But I do remember very well how sad he looked when I told him.

Then, wouldn't cha just know it, tonight, at the fitness gym I regularly go to to keep myself from looking like a Lard of the Universe myself, lo and behold, who do I bump into but this same fellow. I gladly told him that finally, after nearly 29 years, I had recently become an ex of the one who once proudly and shamelessly billed himself as being 'GREATER THAN GOD'. Finally, for the first time, he smiled a HUGE, gigantic smile at me and, after a short discussion of M's demerits, told me some rather interesting things about life back in India. Here's what he said...

He told me that India was chock full of charlatans like M. He said it was the dominant con game there - guys like M who posed as great spiritual persons who you needed to worship and give money to if you wanted to experience any kind of a halfway decent spiritual life. He said that rarely did these guys leave India. Once in a while one of these guys did and back in the early 70's a bunch of them did, including your beloved M.

Anyway, he said that these give-me-your-money type of goo's, as proliferic as they were, were still just a dinky little hill on the spiritual landscape of India. He said that far more numerous were the FOR REAL spiritual guys. These guys only got to be where they were after passing many many many tests that proved their complete and total detachment from the things of this world. He said that the MINIMUM (sound familiar? remember how M stressed: MINNY MUM of one hour?) requirement for these REAL spiritual guys was that they COULD NOT ASK FOR OR SEEK ANYTHING AT ALL FROM ANYONE and yet others, out of their love, respect, devotion, and compassion for them, would, without being asked to do so, spontaneously and voluntarily give them food, clothing and shelter. These FOR REAL spiritual guys could not work, could not earn money. They couldn't even beg. Whatever they had, however little or much it was, could only come from people giving it to them without being asked to. He said this was the STANDARD for being considered a spiritual being in India. Anyone who engaged in a level of behavior anything less than this was commonly understood to be a money-grabbing phoney, a charlatan, a fraud. Automatically. Without question. Without question. And, he said, they were despised for giving all the others, the REAL spiritual guys, the saddhus, a bad name. He said that this is the overall common understanding of the vast majority of Indians.

Now, I ask you Pauline, with that standard for true spirituality, how does that great PAL of ours, PREM himself, stack up in your opinion?
Still think he cuts the mustard? Can you feel your tail a swishin up between your legs yet? No? That's too bad. That means you didn't hear a word I said. Tst. Tst. Tst.

Pauline, my dear, know ye not that ONLY THE PURE OF HEART can enter the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITHIN? That means, my dear, having a heart devoid of ANY KIND OF ANTICIPATED CONCEPT WHATSOEVER of a massa or any other kind of spiritual teacher or ANYTHING. NONE. Absolutely NOTHING between you and the energy keeping you alive. Certainly not a fraud you are gonna fly off to see and gawk at from hundreds of feet away at a festival or gathering after forking over hoards of your hard-earned money as a prerequisite. No, mam. Not one like that. Pure of heart means just that: a heart that has ABSOLUTELY NO DESIRE FOR ANYTHING AT ALL IN THIS WORLD OTHER THAN A COMPLETE, 100 PERCENT, SINCERE DESIRE TO EXPERIENCE pure and total bliss.

Guess what, Pauline, that pure desire was in you before you ever heard of M. Then you had the great misfortune of encountering M who stole that truth, twisted it into a sick, grotesque, greedy business plan to make himself rich and he had the shameless audacity to dare call it K of God.

Now, you are still caught up in his web of deceit. Some call it brainwashing. I like to call it hogwashing (the shitty methods used to BS others that are shamelessly employed by those whose predominant characteristic is to take, take, take (as in hogs)). And, Pauline, this is probably the hardest thing for you to accept but, guess what? In spite of all the love, devotion, time, money, energy, everything that you have given to M, the reality is that he doesn't give a rat's (or a rawat's for that matter) ass about you. Yep, sad but true. Everything he does is for one purpose only - to get you to part with and fork over your hard-earned money just so's he can live like a king in Malibu, sail his yacht, fly around the world in his Gulfstream jet, and fuck innocent, unsuspecting young girls. Meditate on that for awhile.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:50:53 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller Who Has Compassion
Subject: Umm, Steve?
Message:
Steve,

You're preaching to the choir. They are parodies. Pauline, Mahatma Coat, and Andrea Eriksonn.

I thought you knew that. If you didn't, go back and get a good laugh.

Good post, though, your story about the Indian man was terrific!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:41:03 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Umm, Steve???
Message:
Really?! Aw, shucks folks, um preachless.
Guess its ME doin' the tail-between-the-legs swishin' huh?
Nice thing about virtual - it does hide blushing well. Heh, heh.
Gotta listen to my instincts.
They were telling me Munchbutt was too cute to be true but I didn't pay attention.
Thanks, Cynthia.
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:38:21 (EST)
From: Andrew Davidson
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Munchbutt was too cute to be true?
Message:
Yes, Bob and Dot are a very cute couple, Steve. I know them very well. ;)

They run a consulting business in Malibu advising movie stars on how to keep their servants in a constant state of terror and confusion. The seed money for the business came from You Know Who via a shell corp. YKW is a silent partner who puts money donated for propagation in one end and it comes out laundered as pure as snow from the other end so he can buy Wadi three new horses every Xmas.

Bob and Dot are friends with Goldie and Kurt as well as Cher and Whoopi and...but I won't boast about my premie friends' incredible success.

PatC:C)

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:14:00 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: LOL! I didn't want to have to tell you
Message:
LOL! I really didn't want to be the one to tell you Steve, 'cos I'd be sure to put it the wrong way, quadruple-conjunct Scorpio that I am, (whatever that's supposed to say about me) but Cynthia has evidently employed the right amount of sensitivity and tact to help you through this difficult phase of realising you've been suckered - AGAIN!!!

Hahahhhaaaahhhhaaaaaaaa!!!!

(well, you gotta laugh, ain't ya?)

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:56:42 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: cq
Subject: Re: LOL! I didn't want to have to tell you
Message:
I iz laffin, cq, all the way to the bank over the green stuffa mine that don't bankroll his jet no mo'. That was a good one on me. Glad I could a source of some good laughs for you.

Quadruple-conjunct Scorpio, hmmm, very interesting, is that where CQ comes from? ... initials of it in reverse? Sounds pretty intense. Quadruple, that would be sun, moon, rising and ????

If you like, you can email me offline so's we don't bore the others.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:46:35 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Nah-let's bore them here (if they're reading)
Message:
Yup, that's a good way of looking at ex-premiehood - and you're one of many who have turned the tables on the Goo by noting the effect leaving him has had on YOUR bank balance! Sod his.

The astrologoicological ('scuse me, it's Friday evening here, and I drink on a Friday evening. OK, also on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, ... you get the idea, I'm a recovering non-alcoholic)

(ahem) the astrological (though as a sceptic, I have to ask, where's the logic in it?) profundity of being a triple, - wait, make mine a quadruple - Scorpio - isn't mere bullshit. OK, let's talk about me for mo ... hey, wait, where you going?

OK, here's the honest injun lowdown:

You shoulda bin a detective
(at least that would then account for all the travesties of justice we keep hearing about). ;)

Sorry to say, but 'cq' isn't reverse initials for quadruple conjunct. Very inventive and intelligent of you to think so, however (and it probably takes a lot of intelligence and inventiveness for the likes of us to explain how we ever came to kiss the feet of someone like Mr Rawat. But sod him for the moment.)

Sun conjunct Venus conjunct Mercury conjunct Saturn. That's me.

(thinks, how many beans make four?)

Oh yes, four - that accounts for the 'q' in cq.

C is for Chris
Q is for aha!

and if you get that far, you'll be wondering why my apparent anonymity is so blatantly blown by that little Journey.

What, me? Worry.

(Perhaps I should?)

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:59:21 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: cq, it's how many beans make five
Message:
not four, and the answer is...
a bean, a bean, a bean and a half, half a bean and a bean.
No more wine for you, you've got work to do!
Love Kelly
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 17:11:24 (EST)
From: StevieJi
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: cq, it's how many beans make five
Message:
Well, Kelly, I c'n tell you ... BEAN there, done that.
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 16:28:03 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: but ... but ... what about us retards?
Message:
isn't four good enough for you?

Anyway - I've got work to do? Hey! Has Postman Pat put a little something in my letterbox?

(thinks - if it's that pervert next door again, he's got it coming to him, and I'm not talking black and white cats).

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:43:11 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Muchos grassias, Kelly
Message:
got the tape this morning. A little something's on its way to you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 04:06:44 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller Who Has Compassion
Subject: Oh dear...
Message:
I think it's time to "leave no room for doubts in our minds" now. Pauline, don't let this Mr Steve person trick you with his fancy talk. These ex-students of Maharaji are very tricky sometimes, which is why we have to be so careful about listening to the Doubtmaker.

Besides, Maharaji NEVER asks for money. He gets other people to ask for Him. Well, there WAS that one time at Long Beach where He asked for money right there on stage in the middle of His satsang, but that was edited out of the video later, and therefore, it never really happened, and so it doesn't count.

And thanks to automatic payments, NOBODY needs to be asked for contributions anymore, it just gets sucked right out of you bank account while you sleep. Isn't that nice? Maharaji is so thoughtful by making it so easy for us to give him money. I'm so grateful to You-Know-Who for You-Know-What.

I'm leaving now, before anyone starts asking me questions. Just like my Master, I don't want any of THOSE.

Andrea Eriksonn,
Who ain't no friggin Dolly Lama lookin to be asked questions.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 10:52:02 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: Re: Oh dear...
Message:
Maharaji actually asked for money on stage? And then they edited it out of the video??? Does anybody know any more about this? And another question for you guys who are further along the path of exdom than me, does anyone have any knowledge or evidence of Maharaji misappropriating funds that were specifically donated for propagation purposes for his own personal use?

If there is any factual evidence of this, it could give a lot of fence-sitting premies a bit of a jolt where it's needed, so to speak. If they believed it, that is.

With love, Livia

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:48:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Funds for Propagation
Message:
The only evidence that I have that funds given for propagation were not used for that purpose is that huge amounts of money were given for propagation, and next to no propagation has happened.

And what are the propagation activities of his Radiant Rotundity? Local intro programs, paid by the local premies. Production of videos, paid for and more from the sales of these videos. Free entry introductory programs with Maharaji as speaker, errr.... when was the last? Tours of poorer countries like in Africa, err.... when was the last?

So where does all the money donated to Elan Vital by monthly standing order go? Not towards his yacht? No, couldn't be.

John.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 04:17:26 (EST)
From: Bob and Dot Munchbutt
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: Exactly, Andrea
Message:
Not only that BUT those silly poverty-consciousness gurus in the Himalayas who never ask for a dime are full of lice and well....you know what I mean. My god they don't even have VCRs let alone a satellite TV broadcast empire!

How's your new Beemer by the way? Bob and I just got back from a week of sailing the Channel Islands. That was fun but Santa Barbara is sooo provincial after the thrill of living in Malibu. I'm sooo glad You Know Who asked us to buy the house next to his. Why, I was just saying to Goldie and Kurt the other day that they really ought to....but enough name-dropping. ;)

These silly exes do get their tits in the wringer whenever us PWKs boast about our worldy successes too much. Shame, I feel soooo sorry for them stuck in the silly Judeo-Christian morality. Life is great. :)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:14:23 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Contributing to EPO Finances
Message:
I have added PayPal links to the EPO websites (near the bottom of the page) for anyone who wants to contribute to the running costs of the EPO websites. For anyone unfamiliar with PayPal, it's a way of sending money to an email address. They do not charge for the service, but make their money from the interest of those people who leave funds in their PayPal accounts.

When EPO was one site, and without the recent problems, I was happy to fund it, but now that's not feasible.

Please note that donations to the upkeep of this forum, also through PayPal, are completely separate to donations to EPO. According to Gerry, the forum owner, the costs of this forum are related to page views, and a lot of people are reading this forum. EPO costs are website costs, Domain registration costs, and the portion of my telephone bill doing the webmaster job (telephone costs aren't cheap in Latvia).

Many thanks for any help you can give.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:37:29 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Harry's Response to Tonette
Message:
In a thread way down below, a premie named Harry responds to a “gem” by Tonette as follows:

Hi Tonette,

Happy Birthday, first of all.

You probably won't care, but virtually everything you wrote here regarding Maharaji, Pia and Maharaji's not 'showing up' when people who he knows and loves are ill or dying is flat-out untrue.

Your characterization of Pia's site as 'twisted and hateful' is your own opinion, but Pia knew Maharaji very well and wanted to spend the end of her life responding to and combating what she saw (and many others including I see) as the utterly false and increasingly nasty Web lynching of Maharaji in progress. That's what she chose to do, knowing she wasn't long for this world.

He did spend time with her shortly before she passed. Afterwards, he acknowledged her, saluted her spirit and quoted her on at least 3 different occasions, publically, that I'm aware of. You also lost your $100 bet. I'll gladly take the money if you have no other place to send it. I won't violate Ole and Pia's privacy but you're dead wrong on all counts.

Maharaji has visited, called, held hands with and spoken intimately with many people at their point of departure. He has done so with 3 dear friends of mine and others that I'm well aware of. He's done this quietly and discreetly, and though I have no need nor hope that you'll believe it, his kindness and concern for those people left an indelible impression on their loved ones and 'survivors.'

Personally, it meant a lot to ME that he cared about my (and his) friends and acted on it.

Believe what you want, but it doesn't reflect the real guy, Maharaji, at all. Very little here does.

There are so many other false or gossipy things here I could comment on...but this particular one, regarding Maharaji's commitment over the long term to those who have devoted their time and love to him, cannot be left to stand so nakedly false without a response. Had to say it.

I hope you have a great Birthday night and perhaps in the future, you might think twice before commenting with assumed 'authority' about people, facts and events you're unfamiliar with.

best to you, Harry

* * *

Here’s the “gem” by Tonette that set him to posting:

Exactly how many funerals has Maharaji attended of his devotees who have died. Specifcally, his ashram members, who were extraordinarily instrumental in building his wealth. Huh? Gee, if someone sent me even 10% of their income because I was such an awesome person, don't you think that if I gave a rat's ass about them, I would at least show up for their funeral? In my private jet for pete's sake? Talk about easy but more than that, the right thing to do.

And Maharaji, you SOB, how you used Pia even in her death! For a little history this was a long term devotee who died recently(this past year) She, Pia, launched a very twisted and hateful site to discredit EPO and what was happening on the web. This site was called 'it ain't so.' It was the start of and in very many ways mirrored the CAC attacks. A precursor to what was to come. Pia was dying at the time, God bless her soul. She died. But Maharaji in his never ever ability to use people, mentioned her in one of his 'discourses.' Obtusely. He never gave her a real recognition, nor a congradulatory acknowledgement on all her work with her site in countering the ex presence. He used her even in death. What a bastard!

And I would bet $100 that Maharaji, in his careful, loving recognition of this devotee of many, many years did not so much as send a note, or flowers, much less attend her funeral.

Yet he continued to use Pia, even after her death.
That is what you are up against, 210.

But it is all so beautiful. Yeah_right.

My two shakes.

Warmly, Tonette

* * *

Since no one has responded to Mr. Harry, I don’t want him to feel bad, like he’s getting no attention whatsoever and go away mad, so here goes a short one:

Harry: I kind of relate to what you said about Tonette perhaps not knowing what she’s talking about sometimes. I also hated this post of hers you responded to. It was so tacky and without backbone and mean. I was embarrassed when I read it. Even though Tonette and I are “on the same side” regarding the EPO and posting, doesn’t mean I like or dislike everyone’s attitude here. I don’t. I hate the nastiness. (Note to Cynthia: Please lighten up. You’re scaring people.) It’s these kinda posts that are pushing me slowly away from this Forum and steering me to write my goodbye speech like Swami Suchabanana below. I know soon I’ll be leaving my daily EPO reading and writing about this stuff because it’s all too fucking much if you ask me. I gotta just get on with life. Get over my anger and pain. I and my therapist both feel that I have gained a lot from my conversations here, but it won’t go on for me for too much longer. Just too much bullshit from both sides. Too much immaturity to hang out with on a long-term basis. Not everybody, but just enough of some.

Good for you, Harry, sticking up for M, if that’s how you really feel. This is a free forum, and it takes guts to do what you’ve done. [Tonette can and does over-post at times, it seems to me, and sounds a little too weird for my tastes at times. I’m not really a Tonette fan, you could say, and I could do with less of her rantings. She seems to feel she needs to get her two cents in at every turn to every post and poster. But, even though I feel her post above was ugly, the issue on this chat forum is not Tonette, but M. But speculation by anyone is not helpful. But don’t blame her if she can’t get a whiff of your kind of reading material, like “PAM Magazine -- Must Reading for Those Near the Toes”. Maybe she’s just inhaled too much laundry powder in that little laundry room she lives in off her kitchenette or perhaps she picked up some nasty bug at the hospital where she practices nursing. No doubt about one thing -- she is one upset person and feels she’s getting a lot of assistance by being able to get it off her chest here. It’s making me and you somewhat ill, however. Ya take the good with the bad, and use what’s good for you, I guess.

But your blanket statement that very little about Maharaji on EPO/Forum 7 is true, I take issue with. Your post wants to just wash away all the facts of M’s insensitivity over 30 years because he was nice to a few close friends of yours. How about you? Will he be there at your end? How did these friends of yours get close? How did they hit the “Arjuna” lottery? How did the rest of us fail? Why were we so far away? Not devoted enough? Not rich enough? Not enough meditation? Bad clothes? Bad hair? Karma?

I take issue because what I personally have written about M myself and his lack of care for me on this Fourm7 chat was and is true, believe me. You relate this to an “utterly false and increasingly nasty Web lynching of Maharaji in progress.” Isn’t that a little off the wall? We’re just expressing ourselves as to what our experience has been and what we’ve seen. You speak about “the real guy, Maharaji.” I know him, I think. Isn’t he the one in the picture on my premie friend’s living room wall in the baby blue satin pants and actual flower top with a jeweled crown on his head, holding a flute showing off his Arthur Mary dance steps dancing to “Don’t you Think I’m Sexy” by Rod Stewart? Or, isn’t he the one on the golf cart who can’t ever stop and talk to you or me or anyone of your friends in 30 years -- because he can’t come down off the stage and get to know you or them or really care about any of you or us? Can’t learn from anyone. Can’t talk to anyone. Can’t share with anyone. Originally, he said he knew everything. Omniscient, he said he was. What happened? Was that the “real guy”? Is he not the Lord of the Universe? The Superior Power in Person? And when did he stop being so? What happened there? But why did he have us sing Arti too him just a few months ago? Will he be with every single one of his devotees at their darkest hour? Will he abandon some of them? Which ones? Or is the “real guy” the nice daddy of four beautiful kids and wife in Malibu? One happy nuclear family. Or is the “real guy” the one that his mother, Mataji, disinherited; or is he the one with the big Malibu mansion with security guardhouse, swimming pool, tennis court, recording studio and 14-bay garage filled with autos who flies a leased top-of-the-line executive jet around the world with a large entourage and production company to make more videos, tee shirts, photos, hats, logos and mugs for sale?

Wasn’t the “indelible impression” that Maharaji left on these deceased people’s families at their funerals/deathbeds really more like “Wow am I glad that this guy in the $1,000 suit is gone from THIS family forever. Did he work as a school teacher/social worker like my son/daughter for even one day in his life? What the fuck is his claim to fame that it took all of the attention of my child so far away from his spouse and children and parents for so many years that we were so happy when the ashrams closed we could have cried? Though over the last 20 years we could have built many playgrounds and funded after-school programs in our neighborhood with the large checks for cash that my kid had sent in to him. For what? To build his daughter a restaurant? For his continued adulation and gratification? Another antique BMW? Another new Lexus? How sad. At the end of the day, I was so glad for Pia’s website because I couldn’t understand what was upsetting to her and so I had to go to EPO to find out what was going on, since M’s EV is more secretive than the FBI. I found out what was going on. I’m history.

Your premise that his showing up at the deathbeds of your friends shows “Maharaji's commitment over the long term to those who have devoted their time and love to him” is crooked logic. Did he ever once answer any of my letters in this lifetime and answer the questions I had asked hm? Never. Why would he come to my funeral? Or call me in my last hours of life? Did he even acknowledge the wedding invitation we sent to him representing over 45 years of combined devotion from the bride and groom? Not a word in response. Were your friends some of the chosen few because they were rich and sent in their money regularly? How about the hundreds and hundreds of other full-time devotees that he cares zero about? Never met them. Never talked to them. Their funerals and deathbeds? I doubt it. Why, he doesn’t even know who they are? I don’t think he’d be there. Or, does he do this for the poor single mom 30-year devotee with the four flaky kids in a rented Milwaukee townhouse who couldn’t go to Australia (let alone Long Beach) to sing Arti to him last April or the farm worker from southern India who can only send in one rupee a month? Did he show up there for their deaths or funerals? Ever? How often? Did your friends in effect buy his visit at the end? Were they allowed to get to know him during their lifetimes based on anything other than their good looks, connections or money? Who was the last premie in Wisconsin or Michigan that M has talked with in this lifetime and when? What about those poor people who surrendered to him the reins of their lives, as he instructed them to, and dedicated their entire life’s work, income, family to his cause only to see him close the doors on them after 10 years and throw them out? Let alone answer their mail. Has he even thanked them or their families once in their lifetime, let alone at the end, at their deaths? Is he a humanitarian or a collector of wealthy things? At least the alleged crooks at United Way gave SOME of its collected funds to real charities doing real work for the less fortunate and didn’t just travel around the world for meetings and stay at fancy hotels and fly in private jets and eat at the best restaurants -- on all the dime of the donees -- like Maharaji with his “events.” Even his brother helps the less fortunate, it seems. Have a heart, man. Recently, M went to seven cities and let people talk to him after 30 years (no questions allowed because someone asked him if he meditated in an early event and he got very angry), but what about the premies in Caracus, Finland, Norway, Austria, Ivory Coast, Benin, Ghana? When do they get to meet Maharaji face to face and say anything? Can they afford his visit? Or should they just wait for the broadcast of the videotape. Harry, you’ve got a point there. Work harder to stay real close or you might not make the list, like Tonette.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:36:23 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Criticism
Message:
All criticism ever accomplishes is acrimony and hurt feelings. If one wishes to change behavior, criticism is a poor tool. Better to lead by example.
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:08:21 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings?
Message:
Over posting?
Ugly posts?
Tonette fan, what the hell is that anyway? A couple of people wished me a happy birthday?
I'm wierd?
I have some sort of bacteria or virus I picked up from the hospital?
I live off a kitchenette?

Man, I hope your have an excellent therapist. I suggest, but I'm a little light headed from inhaling laundry soap, so I might be a little wierd, and forgive me if I am ranting, I think in your healing and making ammends with the life you wasted following the bullshit of Maharaji, that you print out a copy of how you just used me and talk about it in your next session with your therapist.

I thought Such was bad. But what you just wrote about me is evil.
I'm glad I never became like you. I'm glad I had the intelligence and ethics to see the cult for what it was, way before you wised up. Decades in fact. What exactly have you been inhaling?
Unfortunately, I don't get to choose the lives I help save, while working as a nurse at a hospital. You know the one, the one where I picked up the bug I'm afficted with. But where I work, I encounter the likes of you. Shallow and spoiled.

How dare you use me like that. How dare you pretend to know the first thing about me. Want to come see the house I live in? I don't have a kitchenette. But you probably do, since that is what comes to your mind.

No, I am not making you ill, you came here like that. Well people don't have therapists, now do they? Too bad your illness can't be cured by a prescripition drug. It's mental.

Fuck You!

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 21:10:31 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Apologizing
Message:
Tonette,

I'm sorry. I was too derisive and over the edge. I apologize. If possible, I wish for JHB to edit my post, as I should have done before I posted it, and delete all reference to you and Cynthia.

I liked your post below to Harry (see link) and ask for your and all other posters' foregiveness.

Sincerely,
OTS, spatula-ing egg off my face
[ Tonette's post ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:32:53 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: I love a person who can ...
Message:
apologize. OTS, you're great. Any friend of Richard's is a friend of mine. Of course, I love Tonette, too.

By the way, if you're on the same machine that you wrote the post from, I believe you can open your message, scroll down to the bottom, click on (edit this message) and edit it. Then you click on Save. If it doesn't act like it responded and you get a black screen, usually if you reload F7 you'll see your message changed. I'm not sure it will do it after this much time has elapsed but it may be worth a try.

Your rip on Tonette was B-A-D, but the rest of your post was G-O-O-D and should be preserved for posterity. Just my 2 cents.

Also, JHB is EPO Webmaster. Gerry is the owner of F7. But try and see if you can't edit your own post. Even when I close my browser down I can usually go back and edit a post.

It's great for when I say to myself, 'Geez, why the &#@& did you say that!'

Bests,

--f

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 05:43:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Oops! OTS. Hell hath no fury....
Message:
...like a woman scorned and I for one love feisty women which is why this forum is so addicting. I live in a city where tough women (like the Lesbian Avengers) are well regarded. The first chapter of Women Against Ladies was started here 20 years ago. ''Ladies'' are not supposed to get angry but women sure do.

Sorry OTS, that you caught some flak but I'm sure you'll be big enough to learn from it.

PatC, who loves movies where the women get to kick male chauvinist pig butt. :C)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:42:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here's the full quote...
Message:
Hi Pat,

I thought I'd add my 2 cents--the full quote is by English playwright William Congreve (1670-1729), the play ''The Mourning Bride''

Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned.

Good Morning!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:09:31 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Here's the full quote...
Message:
Well thanks, Cynthia. I always thought it was Shakespeare but then I always think everything was Shakespeare. ;)
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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 04:50:00 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Sorry, no cigar
Message:
I don't accept your apology. Not now anyway. Your post was most lucid in describing what you think of me. Why do you think after what you wrote that I would want to endear myself to you?

And I hope Gerry doesn't let you off the hook by editing your thread above. Someday, after you emerge a little bit more from the fog you've been in, you may want to refer back to it so you can mark your progress in rejoining the human race.

I could not care less what you think of my reply to Harry.

Oh, and should you ever stop by my house and find my kitchen lacking, I can show you the kitchen at the other house I own. The house at the beach. I can provide you a filtration mask to wear, so you don't have to inhale any laundry soap particles that might be floating in the air. I do wash clothes, I don't find that task beneath me.

No, I don't forgive you.

Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:35:07 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: You go WOMAN!
Message:
Tonette,

I was going to respond to OTS on your behalf, but nobody does it better than you. He only mentioned me once, but after I re-read it, your name is mentioned throughout. Nope, no revisions...

Last night I had a little insomnia and awoke about 2 unable to get back to sleep. I read your post to OTS and thought, yes, that's my kind of woman--Tonette.

We all learn here, don't we? About hitting that little 'post' button. Once hit, once posted, it's SAID.

And I certainly don't think that OTS's post was a ''BEST OF'' because it was full of insults, plus, IMO, convoluted and a rant.

I hope the steam coming out of your ears is helping you to press those fresh shirts, are there laundry soap bubbles flying around your head? |D

Much Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:21:16 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Tonette, Cynthia, OTS
Message:
Mistakes were made, feelings were hurt, people were insulted. Too bad but I would not want to see anyone of you to drop out because toes were stepped on.

OTS, I tought you took the protests to the personal attack part of your post to heart and attempted to apologize. Too bad it is being rejected by Tonette and Cynthia. The rest of your post was spot on and, as usual, a valuable contribution. Not sure what else you could say to heal this situation, but I hope you keep posting.

Tonette and Cynthia, what would it take for you to be satisfied that OTS is being sincere? As others have said, his comments were uncalled for but I thought his apology post was sincere. He did attack you but has extended the olive branch. Please don't let this feud get worse.

Richard, amateur mediator

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:00:47 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I hope OTS posts here all that he wants
Message:
I will not fued with him. He is welcome, OTS is a 'he' I assume, on this forum, like all of us.

Just because someone offers an apology, with their sincerity, doesn't necessarily mean you have to accept it.

Sorry Richard, mistakes happen, but I happen to know what OTS really thinks of me.

I will not flame OTS but it will be a cold day in hell before I forgive him. I appreciate what you are trying to do but I do have a right to defend myself.

Tonette, who just finished cleaning a toilet.

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 18:40:16 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Inhaling laundry soap? Rantings?
Message:
Tonette,

I'd gladly come and inhale laundry soap with you anytime I'm in your neck of the woods! :)

Much LOVE,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I'm a Tonette fan ;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 15:36:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I'm a Tonette fan, too...:) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:20:47 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Just meditate, brother
Message:
Just kidding, OTS. What I meant to say was, you're in your mind, brother. And that's a good thing.

Every post you've made here has been full of fire. And every one of your posts has made quite an impact. From scanning down the replies, I see this one is no exception. Maybe not the response you wanted but it certainly stirred up the conversation.

A word about the forum from a relative old-timer. I've only been posting for a bit over a year but have noticed a couple of phases folks often go through. One of the first phases is a sense of amazement and appreciation (not that kind of appreciation) for the info gathered on EPO and the ongoing forum conversation. Many posters eventually get really into the forum and, because it does mean so much to them, want to change it for he better. For myself, I wanted to help reorganize EPO to make it easier to access for all new comers. And I've always lobbied for giving newcomers a wide berth because I appreciated the support I received as a sweaty-palmed newbie.

May I be so bold as to suggest that where you're coming from with the above post is a desire to protect the forum? I don't think you want to attack anyone personally but just want to make sure the forum is user friendly.

You know I dig your presence here and always get a kick out of your thoughts. Peace with passion, brother.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:17:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Tonette was completely right
Message:
OTS,

I, too, have enjoyed your posts and all that and would be sorry to see you just drop out when you really just got here but talk about nasty! I re-read Tonette's post and can't see what you're so put out by. Here it is again with my comments interspersed:

Exactly how many funerals has Maharaji attended of his devotees who have died. Specifcally, his ashram members, who were extraordinarily instrumental in building his wealth. Huh? Gee, if someone sent me even 10% of their income because I was such an awesome person, don't you think that if I gave a rat's ass about them, I would at least show up for their funeral? In my private jet for pete's sake? Talk about easy but more than that, the right thing to do.

True? Damn right it's true. I guess Harry knows of some exceptions but the general rule's undeniable. Every premie that I ever knew who died, in the ashram or out, did so without M's physical attention or support. Back in my time, we actually thought M was far too exalted in holy stature not to mention busy Creating, Sustaining and Destroying the entire universe to exchange pleasantries with devotees enduring something as trivial as maya sand traps like sickness or even death. Hell, he didn't do bar mitzvahs either, what's the problem? Tonette's impression, like mine, wasn't hastily arrived at. If there's a secret, more compassionate side to M, neither she nor I need ever apologize for not knowing it. Besides, given all the many opportunites for such basic human generosity he's passed by over time, M's motives in all respects are deservedly suspect.

And Maharaji, you SOB, how you used Pia even in her death! For a little history this was a long term devotee who died recently(this past year) She, Pia, launched a very twisted and hateful site to discredit EPO and what was happening on the web. This site was called 'it ain't so.' It was the start of and in very many ways mirrored the CAC attacks. A precursor to what was to come. Pia was dying at the time, God bless her soul. She died. But Maharaji in his never ever ability to use people, mentioned her in one of his 'discourses.' Obtusely. He never gave her a real recognition, nor a congradulatory acknowledgement on all her work with her site in countering the ex presence. He used her even in death. What a bastard!

Seems harsh but, when you think about it, entirely true. Pia's site was twisted and hateful. Sure, it might not have had the same blatantly ugly tone as CAC or even Glasser's site, but the substance was just as bad. Pia and friends were haughtily dismissive of all of these wonderful people who had literally dedicated the better parts of their lives to a man they now sought answers and accountability from. If, by then, you too had spent the kind of time and effort other exes had put out in the name of truth you might also have reacted that way. But you weren't around then so it wasn't your fight. I'll tell you one thing, though: no one who was around then accepted Pia's site on the superficially 'pleasant' terms it was offered. Perhaps you had to be there.

As for using Pia, well what do you call it when a coward like M lets his cult members wrap themselves up in the impossible task of defending him with their final days because 1) it's got great schmaltz appeal and 2) he's too cynical and frightened to try to do it himself? He used Pia for effect. She might not have known it but we do. Tonette's right. And she's also right in observing that M can't ever give actual credit to people, even when it's only to applaud them for applauding him, even posthumously.

And I would bet $100 that Maharaji, in his careful, loving recognition of this devotee of many, many years did not so much as send a note, or flowers, much less attend her funeral.

Okay, maybe she was right about this, maybe she was wrong. As I said, she knows the guy well enough, gave enough of herself to him over time to have earned the right to speculate. And if he's off the hook in this case, he certainly isn't in most.

Yet he continued to use Pia, even after her death.
That is what you are up against, 210.

But it is all so beautiful. Yeah_right.

My two shakes.

Warmly, Tonette

It might not have been your expression but it wasn't that bad. I don't know what your story is but if the forum or EPO had anything to do with helping you exit, you have people like Tonette to thank not look down your nose at.

By the way, what is your story or is that prying?

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:16:39 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But you're wrong, Jim
Message:
You said: ''He was too busy Creating, Sustaining and Destroying.''

It should actually read: ''Generating, Operating and Destroying.'

Go it? G-O-D. :C)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:57:32 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Yo OTS
Message:
Sending you my love. Read your posts. Hope you're doing well. Don't have time to get into the discussion.

I'm who you used to know as Katie Baier. You're welcome to e-mail me at darlingwave@aol.com (don't know if you read my invitation in a previous thread). Or not. Anyway, much love to you and all support you need in the process you're in.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:36:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Please Don't Be Afraid of Me...
Message:
Dear OTS,

The last thing I ever want to do here is to frighten people, but I admittedly do that because I am a passionate person. I'm not dispassionate, but I do have a fierce bark. OTS, (does that mean Off The Scale)? I am a queer duck. I know it and I admit it. Sometimes I'm as wonderful and kind as kind can be, and other times I am as angry as rage can be. That's the way I'm made up. I can't really apologize for that because I work on my own personal behavior with real 3D people and people here on the forum every day. Honestly, I'm sorry if I made you feel afraid.

I can't go through your post line by line right now, because it's my night to cook dinner and my priorities are straight when it comes to real living. I love my life. So I don't want to brush off your concerns about me, Tonette or any other people here you perceive to be threatening or off the wall. Besides, they are free to answer for themselves.

All I want to convey to you at this moment--THIS MOMENT--is that I have had a peculiar life aside from the cult and I have experiences and insights that many people don't have because of it. That doesn't make me special it simply allows me to be the unique person I am. Believe me, I would rather be normal, whatever that is.

I suspect you are experiencing a period of exiting which could be called ''floating.'' This is a state which many people who exit cults experience right after realizing the horrific thing that has happened and been done to them. It's a terrible feeling, I know, but you will get through it. Try to think about exactly with whom you are angry. When I boil it all down, it usually ends up at maharaji's feet.

The forum is not for those without strong stomachs. To survive the cult it takes great courage and you've expresed yourself well. It's not a chat room, either, but we can disagree on that. Can you give me another chance?

Please do not leave the forum because certain folks here, me, Tonette or anyone else has offended you. Believe me. This isn't a cult. All you have to do is read the posts after 911. If you think I am scary now, well, nevermind...I'd like to leave those posts in the circular file.

My point is this: take care of YOU. Leaving m is so difficult and scary and heartbreaking. Don't leave because of me, please.

Your responsibility right now is to nurture yourself through this period of intense fluctuation of emotions. Love yourself. Take comfort and care of yourself and ask those in your real world to help you do that if that's possible.

Now, I must go and make supper--this is my husband's time with me. Please try to calm down, and understand that you've been through so much shit and you made it very far.

If you feel overwhelmed, you are welcome to email me at sylviecyn@yahoo.com. Surprised? I'm not going to bark down your throat. That's a promise.

Take some deep breaths try to calm down and I wish you the best.

It's a difficult time. But please don't go, unless you must.

I send you my best thoughts
and be well,
Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:36:43 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The Forum is Ephemeral.
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

One of the things I've noticed about the forum is it's incredibly ephemeral. Not only are the Earth shattering revelations and confrontations forgotten by the time you wake up again, if you don't post for a couple of weeks, nobody even remembers who you are.

It's like the newspapers. Who can remember what they read last week?

It's wonderful. All the posts drop off the bottom and disappear.

And usually, those folk who say, 'That's it. I've had enough. I'm leaving for good.' are usually back within four days.

I love it.

Anth, going going gone. And never ever coming back.

dum dee dee dee dar.

Hi I'm back. Did I miss anything?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 21:06:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Have we met? You look familiar ;)
Message:
Funny and true. Hope the next forum allows us to track and respond to posts for months. This 2 to 3 day run is not fair for the diversity of posters and lurkers we have here.

deb who has an email for you

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:17:59 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: What an honest, compassionate response (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:08:13 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Harry's Response to Tonette
Message:
Hi OTS

You'll never get a situation where you agree with all posters, nor will you be able to control the 'tone' of the forum. Nor will anyone else. As a public discussion board, it's fluid not static.

All you can do is write however you see fit. Whether it be with anger, sadness, joy, pain, pleasure...whatever.Personally speaking my ultimate judgement of a post/ poster (as far as I can make that judgement, that is) is whether or not the post is HONEST or whether it's just BULLSHIT.From M , especially these revisionist days,all I discern is a FUNDAMENTAL LIE .....no matter how 'nicely' he tells it. A post doesn't have to be sweet in order to be honest and sometimes the sweetest posts can be BULLSHIT.That's my fundamental starting point. I think M and his organisation(s)are fundamentally dishonest. Yes fundamentally. No matter how sweet he can sometimes appear to be, especially on a stage in public.

As you mention Tonette and Cynthia.....you say they are turning people off. Maybe, maybe not. You could have just as easily said they are turning people ON.Horses for courses. There could be countless lurkers who are feeling incredibly angry and cynicaljust at the moment and appreciate the 'no holds barred approach'. There's enough variety to keep evryone happy, I reckon.You don't like the way they express themselves and that's your perogative.As far as I'm concerned they've spent YEARS devoted to Prem Pal Singh Rawat....now that they are EX followers, then on an EX forum it's up to them how they communicate their experiences vis-a-vis Maharaji.

Maharji doesn't ALLOW real free speech in his world. Anything other than a sychophantic 'Thank you' get's short shrift from him.

As regards your PERMANENTLY leaving because of the tone of some posts. Why? You've written some good posts.You have a story to tell and years of experience to draw on , as we all have.Come and go as you please, I'd say.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:16:42 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Aren't you up kinda late? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:00 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 12-20pm...late? Not really. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:56 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: AM ...duhh [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:41:18 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Go to bed Dermot.
Message:
It's well past your bedtime. You'll only be grouchy in the morning.

Anth who functions best when he's asleep.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 20:51:52 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Across the pond folks..OT
Message:
You stay up later than us lightweights in the US. I keep much later hours over there. It must be your bad influence.

Love and see you soon, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not as late as me
Message:
Time for bed:-)

John the 2 hours ahead of Dermot (2.22 am)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:51:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Hey OTS, WHOA
Message:
Well said, OTS, and I agree re Maharaji having not a philanthropic bone in his rotund body, and I also agree that his blatant uncarring about his followers, except if they are his personal friends, have money, or he needs them for some reason, is the most damning thing about him. He never gave a crap about any of us, and his actions over the years (ashrams, finances, abuse, unresponsive to sincere questions, etc.) proves that.

But I'm not sure why you are so upset at Tonette (and also Cynthia). We are all just people with lots of different points of view and ways of expressing them, not all of which are to my liking either. To the extent Harry corrected anything Tonette said, that's exactly what this Forum is supposed to be about, and Harry has every right to say what he did.

I also find that premies, and some recent exes are kind of freaked out by the freedom here, to say whatever people feel they need to say. That is something that exists nowhere in the Maharaji cult and is greatly feared in that cult and that's why all the cult websites forbid open discussion and even something like ELK heavily censors out any dissenting view. That doesn't happen here, and can be messy, but thank God for that!

I do think Pia's website was hateful, but I'm sorry she had cancer. I'm also sorry she was so deluded to think she was helping Maharaji, herself or humanity by calling ex-premies liars, or, worse yet, saying the ex-premies, when they were premies, caused all the problems. Lies.

Then, when I wrote a number of dissenting views to her site, extremely respectful by the way, they were ignored. Not only did she or whoever managed that site not print them, they weren't even acknowledged, all the while printing crap from people like Josie Winter, twisting the truth about published works by cult-researchers, and then not even acknolwedging my correction.

Either someone has respect for the truth or they don't. If you have respect for the truth you are open to comments that augment or provide views on that truth, even if you disagree with them. But see, Pia wasn't interested in the truth, she was interested in trying to spin the story and blame the messengers of Maharaji's past and behind-the-scenes present. That isn't the truth, that's propaganda. When the propaganda includes blanketly calling people liars, them's fighting words and Tonette and the rest of us have a right to be upset.

She claimed that she was actually going to respond to the things that had been raised by ex-premies, to provide evidence as to why they weren't true, but she never did. All she did was attack, softened by testimonials a la ELK.

The really sad part is that I think she sincerely believed she loved Maharaji and did it from that place. I don't know how well she knew him personally, but it's one thing to personally love somebody, and something else to do unethical things to try to "help" Maharaji, or worse yet, "prove" her love for Maharaji. That seems to be where Pia was coming from.

Plus, I am quite certain Maharaji can be extremely charming and nice in person. I have no personal experience of that, but I'm willing to accept it. But my question is: so what? That is simply not an excuse for the other reprehensible things he's done to damage peoples' lives. That he's nice to children, animals and his friends, is meaningless. On EPO, we are talking about his actions as "Master" and how he portrayed himself as such, not whether he is nice to Harry, or David Andersen, (or Erika one time in 1982), or Derek Harper, Pia, rich premies, or to Daya.

BTW, I really like what Tonette has to say although I don't agree entirely with almost anyone who posts here. I also admire her spunk, and I admire Cynthia's energy too.

I hope you will reconsider leaving the Forum, but you can always come back. All of us have taken vacations from this place. It is intense to look at all this stuff.

All the best,

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:31:02 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: careful shutting people up, OTS
Message:
especially women. It replicates the quieting of criticism so prevalent with pwks. Many women are afraid to express how they feel because they will receive exactly the kind of harsh criticism you direct to Tonette and Cynthia. Just to let you know, that criticism scared me much more than anything Cynthia has ever said.

While I agree that your response makes for compelling reading, it too is filled with anger. I think we all have reason for being angry at being misled by m. Let's direct it where it belongs,and not towards each other.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 18:02:42 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Very well said
Message:
I find it a little suspicious that none of the men at this forum made that list, but otherwise an honest post.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:52:52 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: *** Best of Forum - Great Post, OTS ***
Message:
personalising your negative views towards Tonette and Cynthia excludes your post from the Best of section on EPO. Otherwise, superb rebuttal of Harry's sugar-coated view of Maharaji's character.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:21:12 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: No - bad precedent, John..
Message:
Imagine if someone posted a somewhat personalised attack on you, but because of that post's other content, not the ad hominem stuff, the whole thing was enshrined forever on the *BEST OF* page...

Since there is no right of reply on 'Best of Forum', to have any personalised attacks on exes there - out of the original context - would be pretty lousy and unfair to the named individuals, whether or not there were grounds for them.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 19:24:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Of course you're right, Nige
Message:
I read his opinion of Tonette and Cynthia then got absorbed in the quality of the rest of the post. If he'd have kept names out, criticising the tone of posts here is fine by me, then it would be OK, but you're right, the Best of bit is about to be removed.

John with an eraser in his hand

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:28:15 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Original Quotes...
Message:
Come on you die-hard premies, M is giving you all the clues you need to wake up:

'God has given you life and you are living it for someone else.'
- Maharaji

'One day you will be completely alone. So try to be completely alone now. Because now you can recognize the beauty that is there.'
- Maharaji

oh well... maybe I should post these Maharaji-originals on Life's great...

Mirror (having fun, looking at the old days, when I used to misinterpret all that stuff as having some deeper meaning other than what he actually says)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:19:52 (EST)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Original Quotes...
Message:
Hi Mirror,

Are you the mirror I used to look into and see myself as I once was?

Kind regards
Hal Door

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:48:01 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Self serving satsang
Message:
Satsang ie 'the company of truth'. Well, it's a wake up call for me today. After reading so many posts about the difficulty being in a relationship with Maharaji sitting in the middle and on the highest podium, Princess Diana's infamous quote seems appropriate-
'There were three of us in this marriage, so it was a bit crowded.'

How did we come to the conclusion that he stood above and beyond it all, after all, we supposedly made him into the Lord incarnate, he didn't. Uh hmmmmm...let me cough up that furball.

I have the Santa Monica public event video where he talked about divorce even happening in India, and how one's boyfriend/girlfriend will always find someone better to come along. Another time he said that if you were locked in a room with your spouse, eventually you'd hate the person so much you'd want to jump out the window. And then there was the infamous insight of his, how love between two people was so fragile, that it took a romantic candlelight dinner to keep it going, but the next thing ya know, over tips a candle and the whole thing goes up in smoke.

He set this up long, long ago. Never put anything between the devotee and master. Even Marilyn gave that satsang, where she was on a beach with him and dying to jump in the water. What a quandry, to lay in the sun with Maharaji, or jump in the ocean? She jumped in the ocean, only to return to the infamous words, 'Never leave your master for HIS illusion.'

So what are premie spouses supposed to think and do, if they are good little premieji's? He lays this stuff like asphalt, bulldozing inroads over simple human relationships. Anything that he wants to do, he first lays down the con for premies to swallow in his ultimate satsangs.

Of course we thought he was above all such petty lusts and desires, that he was saying these things for our benefit. Now I clearly, as in clarity, see it was solely for his benefit, and still is. This is manipulation on the grandest scale and it damages premies who take him seriously, for years, if not the rest of their lives.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:00:18 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Jezus H Christ on a bicycle - he said WHAT???
Message:
'Never leave your master for HIS illusion'.

This needs documenting on EPO. Any idea where and/or when Marolyn gave this 'satsang'?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:50:07 (EST)
From: vicki
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Sorry got it wrong....
Message:
...it was "Never leave the creator for his creation."
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:53:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: vicki
Subject: Same difference...LOL~ [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:30:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Maharaji is such a F!!king LOSER!
Message:
Maharaji has said so many contradictory thing about marriage and relationships over these past 30 years because he knows diddly-squat about what a real marriage is about. What a complete loser and asshole. Christ on a Candle stick what a freak.

This one really has got me on a roll:

Another time he said that if you were locked in a room with your spouse, eventually you'd hate the person so much you'd want to jump out the window. And then there was the infamous insight of his, how love between two people was so fragile, that it took a romantic
candlelight dinner to keep it going, but the next thing ya know, over tips a candle and the whole thing goes up in smoke.

That's quite telling isn't it? When I hear things like that I think: Marolyn, get out and take your kids, whether they are adults or not! What a total insult to her. But, she takes it, so go figure.

He has no respect for women in general, and in particular, his own wife. He hasn't got a clue about real love between two people in an intimate relationship. He has screwed up so many love relationships in his guru career I can't even imagine it. He's certainly kept his own wife cloistered.

Well, Maharaji, I'll tell ya what. If I was locked in a room with my husband, eventually we'd be having wild and wonderful sex, we'd talk, we'd read, we'd have more wild and wonderful sex. We make love. We don't hate eachother you fool.

As for candle-lit dinners. Ah, those are the absolute best. Just last Saturday night. Dinner, wine, music and dancing in our living room like we met just yesterday and can't keep our hands off eachother.

I hope you envy ME, you foolish GURU! You know nothing about love between humans on any level.

Got that, Monitors--now go tell him...geezum crow what an idiot.

Cynthia Gracie, in love after all these years, and not with a GURU!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:23:43 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Loser? Cynth, he doesn't realise it
Message:
There's SO much that that one quote of Marolyn's says about him, whether he used the word 'illusion' OR 'creation'.

Don't the Hindu scriptures imply (however illogically) that creation IS an illusion? And if he said 'creation', doesn't that make it all the more obvious that he (the so-called 'Master') was claiming to be the none other than the Creator?

'Never leave your master for his illusion'
and
Never leave your master for his creation' - compare the two and what have you got? A con-artist, either way.

And there's many more implications from this quote, not least the disrespect for his own wife (the unconscious message being - if you choose to enjoy yourself, then you betray me - which was message that was strongly evident in the ashrams, as well as in the whole ethos of renunciation that the ashrams embodied - on the Maharaj's orders).

If any of his quotes from the last three decades embody the arrogance and deceit that personifies him in a nutshell, it's this one.

Phew! What a trip.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:28:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Loser? Cynth, he doesn't realise it
Message:
Yes, I agree, cq, his ego is infinite.

How could I ever love that?

Three decades. That's so sobering, isn't it? After I posted above, I recalled hearing that satsang.

I'm shaking my head in disgust.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 12:54:35 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Best of Forums back up!
Message:
I love reading this forum. And it's a great place for venting the hurt, anger and disappointment we feel after having been led down the garden path by m while he lined his pockets. Sometimes, though, I worry that there's not enough substance here for the lurkers (which I was for a year). I actually joined this forum after I read some outrageous reports by former PAMS off 'Best of Forums.' I'm happy to report that the Best of Forums is back up and connected to that mirror site that John gave a while back. If your looking for it, I believe it can be found at www.ex-premie2.org. If that's not it, would you give it again, please John.

ps. i miss da lil swami already

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:44:00 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Why exactly are you going to miss Such?
Message:
Especially after the bullshit he wrote.

I'm curious. Why are you going to miss him? Didn't he offend you in the very least? And since you are new here, exactly what was it about him that you found so noteworthy?

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:55:26 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Why exactly are you going to miss Such?
Message:
I have been reading the forum for over a year and I guess I'm attached (YIKES--attachment!!) to the participants and their particular styles and contributions. I found Such's posts to alternate between brilliant and hilarious, and sometimes both. He was clearly rather passionate (read: hyperbolic) and while I was concerned about him after his last post, I thought maybe he was just performing. I'm a softhearted housemum and love all of you, sight unseen.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:16:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Substance on the Forum
Message:
I agree that it's the website that is the most critical for people to poke around and read the information. If someone is ready to hear it, that information sets off alarm bells, because it usually answers questions as to why that person was having the uneasy feelings they were having about the cult, or why things happened the way they did.

I also agree about the Forum. It's essentially a moving target, changing from day to day, depending on who is here. Sometimes it seems repetitive to somebody who has read it for awhile because new people show up and ask questions that have already been asked, etc. But it's very valuable to enhance communication, express feelings, and get support. Also, sometimes exciting stuff happens, like new revelations, new ex-PAMs, moles, behind-the-scenes intrigue, etc.

I can see why PWKs would come here to find out information. Maharaji's organizations are exceedingly paranoid, secretive, and treat premies like they are too stupid and untrustworthy to be told the actual truth about what is going on. That drives premies to EPO and the Forum, although Maharaji hasn't seemed to figure that out yet.

The strategy has been to try to destroy EPO (lawyers, CAC attacks, hacking), but every time they try, it just makes it stronger and creates more ex-premies.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:12:14 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Even better news!
Message:
yup, no more hassling with new bookmarks - the original web address for EPO is back!

Congratulations, John, (and others?) for a true service to the community.
[ ex-premie.org ]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:27:20 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: the original doesn't work for me (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:50:00 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Well, if you must live in Outer Mongolia :)(nt)
Message:
Well, if you must live in Outer Mongolia :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:59:43 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: oh brother, where art thou?
Message:
cq, I'll have you know that with all my years of meditation, I live in Inner Mongolia.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:39:03 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Housemum: That's funny...
Message:
Have you seen the movie by that name? It's quite good and entertaining.

Inner Mongolia....Thanks for that laugh.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 01:35:58 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Oh Brother = great movie OT
Message:
I've seen Oh Brother Where Art There twice. I'm not a scholar of Homer but did pick up a few of the mythological references. I thoroughly enjoyed the film and agree the soundtrack is great. Being a Southern man, I love those ol' timey spiritual songs. Tonight, on the way home, I was listening to a song from the movie by Allison Krause 'Let's Go Down to the River to Pray'. It's the song when the three wanderers witness the Baptism and the hilarious aftermath.

After the song, the DJ announced that the Down From the Mountain concert was coming to Seattle. DFTM consists of songs from the movie performed by some amazing talents like Allison Krause, Emilou Harris and some others. Too bad that John Hartford has passed on. He was the emcee in the excellent original concert film performed in Nashville. When I got home I snagged tickets for loving wife and myself for Valentine's Day.

Richard who knows a good time when he sees one

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 22:07:34 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Oh Brother = great movie OT
Message:
Richard,

I saw the movie twice as well. Loved the soundtrack so I got a copy and played it in the car while driving with my kids (they are 7 and 3) They both love 'Down to the River to Pray' and every once in a while they'll both start singing it together. It's pretty amazing to hear that good ol' gospel music coming from the mouths of my kids!

Best,
Susan (play that river song again, mommy)

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 09:30:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Oh Brother = great movie OT
Message:
Hi Richard,

Yeah, I saw it twice too. Besides the great music, it was hilarious.

I didn't know John Hartford died. That's too bad. I always liked him a lot.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 11:11:06 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Oh Brother
Message:
John Hartford didn't die, it was just his 'character' changing mataphysical formation, ask da l'il swami.
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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:07:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Re: Oh Brother- LOL
Message:
Hi Pullaver,

All I can say in answer to that is hmmmm...I'm still smarting over da l'il swami incident.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:41:55 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Housemum: That's funny...
Message:
Yes. I loved that movie too. Based on Homer's Odyssey and very funny. And grea sound track if you like blue grass.
xxoo
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:18:54 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: I heard that movie is great
Message:
Got to get myself a copy of that. I love Homer and Odysseus is one of my favorite Mythological characters. I'm working on a BA in Greek and Roman with a minor in film. We should talk movies sometime over at Anything goes and/or SatChit Room.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:32:28 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Blue grass, never smoked that
Message:
Sounds wild, a bit blade runner'ish.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 22:20:58 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Love that movie, too
Message:
Did you see Director's cut? I studied that movie in a film noir course. Incredible movie.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:46:18 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Housemum: YES! I loved the music [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:02:44 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: ah, sister-ji, you still living in that duality?
Message:
... ain't spiritual one-upmanship absolutely reeeeeVOLting!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:20:51 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: in my mind as always
Message:
I wouldn't know. I don't practice it. LOL.
I definitely developed a spiritual inferiority complex during my early days as a pwk. We were given to believe that the hierarchy was determined by 'realizing knowledge' and since I was scrubbing floors for my first few years, I was clearly 'in my mind.' Later my 'service' was as the co-personnel director at a premie installation and boy did my status rise among my fellow hostages. And I knew that I was the same ole 'in my mind' me that scrubbed floors a few years back. And then I became housemum again, but this time in a delux country home where hardworking premies could spend a weekend recooping. It's interesting how one's 'service' reflected one's status. It's so conventional and ego-serving. And as pointed out here, is compelling reason for PAMS and honchos to stay aboard EV, even if they see that the emperor has no clothes. I guess my reply, cq, is that one-upmanship just ain't spiritual, now is it?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:11:53 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: in my mind as always
Message:
Good grief, delux country home where hardworking service premies could spend a weekend recouping? I didn't even know there was such a place and anyway, wasn't service supposed to be an inner experience?
I take it these weren't the Decca workers who's hands were in toxic chemical substances? Too amazing. You have any more minor details? Incredible! Thank you.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:52:49 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Ouch! Our minds did get dissed didn't they?!
Message:
Ouch! Our minds did get dissed didn't they?!

Bless you, housemum. I was about to post a post-script to my hastily-conceived and hastily-sent reply. It was to have gone along the lines of: 'forgive me for being so rude and forgetting to mention that I really was LOL (laughing out loud) when I read your 'Inner Mongolia' post'

Ah well, nice to know that you didn't take it the wrong way. Not that I'm getting paranoid or anything (thinks ... Am I? Aren't I? ... Shouldn't I be? ... ah fuck it (ooops, PMF - pardon my french). Sheesh - the legacies of putting ourselves down - now where did we learn THAT?)

I guess we learnt to be submissive, self-doubting little creatures from watching too much television. Yes? Heaven forfend that such a personality trait could have come from volunteering to submit ourselves at the FEET of another human being. Now why did we do that? Couldn't have been that this particular human to whom we submitted actually claimed to be the 'most powerful incarnation of God ever to have trod the planet', could it?

Jeeez, when I think about what he conned us into beleiving - and is STILL conning people into believing, though in a much more secretive way - phew ... what to say? What a trip. Thank god (or Darwin, or somebody) that those of us who have come out the other side of it have at least each other to talk about these things to.

Housemum - at the end of the day, all I can say is - thanks for telling it how it is for you. For me, that's what makes the free-speech on a forum like this so ... (jings, dare I say it?) ... precious.

And in reply to your reply: You're right. One-upmanship, especially of the kind that says 'my pretence at humility is holier than thine' is not only unspiritual, - it's unreal, unpleasant, and, most of all ... un ... un ... er, under a delusion of self importance.
Yes. That's what it is.

(isn't that right, Mahatmata-ji?)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:06:59 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: pretense is his game, no doubt
Message:
Dear mr.cq, I knew you were being funny, and I think the fun we make of m and k on this site is very healing, and a way to re-appropriate our 'take' on the whole ordeal.

Feeling overly responsible, guilty, submissive in the face of authority, was part of our post WWII heritage, I think. TV and all pop culture reinforced what our parents were drilling into us. And you're right, that made us sitting ducks for exploitation.

Thank the gods for our minds, huh? THE MIND IS GOOD, EVERYBODY. IT IS YOUR FRIEND!!!

One of my favorite expressions from the buddhist tradition about spiritual one-upmanship and alleged spiritual leaders is 'If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.' Pretty strong language for a bunch of pacifists, but the point is well-taken.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:37:33 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: No doubt. No faith.
Message:
Dear mrs housemum, I'll have to think about that. You mean it's not M's fault, it's Hitler's? ;) (and who did he think he was kidding?)

Ah, glasshopper, you call me mr cq. Is intelesting name. But you need to know when to miss out the mister, sister. (call me Chris, yes?, or Chlis, if you must).

'If you meet Buddha on load, (ahem, excuse me) on road, kill him immediatry'

Ah. Fine insight. But what it mean?

Another self-professed 'master' once told me: it means that if you project your own Buddhahood onto another human, then you miss the opportunity of finding the true Buddha - who IS you - not just 'within you'.

Was he right or was he wrong?

Cue Bill and Ben. Cue Weed. And cue ... the house?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:00:28 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: the knowledge you can get in college
Message:
Dear Mr.Chris, I don't mean to say that m isn't responsible for his evil ways. It's the people like m that make me hope there IS such a thing as karma and his will bite him in the butt. I mean that we were primed for exploitation by a post-war, post-sixties culture. I, for one, was submissive and open to almost anything that appeared to be antithetical to my parents' culture. Submitting to a little fat Indian guy who was going to show me how to get where I had only been on LSD, well that was the ticket.

I was raised by 'rugged individualists' to be one, and so the group devotional thing seemed to fly in the face of what looked like selfish, uncaring and superficial mainstream culture. Little did we know that we was jumping from the frying pan into the FIRE! And it burns, burns, burns, that ring of fire....

Another self-professed master used that line about meeting and killing the buddha. NO, I can't take it. Make them all go away! THERE ARE NO MASTERS!

Yours, Dr.Housemum

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 12:59:49 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: it burns, burns, burns ...
Message:
Dear Mrs Housemum,

Ring of fire? … I have nothing but sympathy for those poor members of the AHS. The suffering they have to go through must be truly terrible. Fortunately, I myself have never had the need to join the Association of Haemmorhoid Sufferers, but I'm sure they've got their AHS in the right place.

Now, as to Karma. - Well! What a concept! Who sold you on that one? I know it's been touted as a 'spiritual' belief since it first came to the West's awareness in the late sixties, but when you think about it, there's NOTHING spiritual in it at all. WE are the agents of justice in our own lives, and if we cop out of living up to our OWN responsibilities - by wishfully hoping that 'karma' or somesuch intangible will 'pay back' those people who we think have done us wrong - well, no wonder countries whose populations believe in it (like India) have such a lackadaisical attitude to life, and can seemingly put up with horrors such as the caste system.

OK, so I'm on my hobbyhorse here, but it really does seem to me that SOME ideas we swallowed, (along with the Guru's toejam) need AT LEAST a decent re-evaluation, and, if the individual deems it necessary, a damn good spit at the end of it!

But feel free to disagree. (I like locking horns over things like this).
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 13:29:04 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Johnny Cash's Karma
Message:
Dear Mr.Chris, First off, having been burned, burned, burned by the gooroo greater than god, I must admit that I have the residual effect of not 'believing' in anything. So, I don't BELIEVE in karma, but certain bad people make me HOPE for karma so that I can enjoy the fantasy of retribution without myself exacting revenge. (Studied too many Greek tragedies to pursue revenge.)

Secondly, for sake of debate, there are a variety of definitions of Karma, and since I don't believe in any of them, I subscribe to the one I like best. The goo and his fellow fraudulent ones purport a bastardized Vedic version--karma as 'sin'--or conversely, as 'reward' in a twisted social darwinism, which presumes reincarnation.

As I understand it from the Pali canon, the early buddhist interpretation lacks the moralization, reward and punishment, spin. In that tradition there is no such thing as soul or atman, and therefore no reincarnation. Instead, the notion of karma is defined in the terms similar to those we use in physics as simply cause and effect. I like this version.
Cheers, Dr. Housemum

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Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 14:48:04 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: and Johnny-come-lately's Karma
Message:
Dear Dr Housemum,

Beautifully put, if I may say so. Your evident self-awareness of the part fantasy/wish-fulfillment has to play in much of our lives (well, we wanted to beleive the Goo was God-in-a-bod, didn't we?) marks you out as a kindred spirit, philosophically speaking. Well, I think so.

As for the Pali canon - you definitely meant what you said in an earlier post (a week or so ago?) when you described yourself as a 'scholar of ancient religions' or something like that. That was you wasn't it? Well, I've had aspersions to call myself the same over the last three or four years, but there's so much material to cover. Never mind, maybe we can exchange insights from time to time?

One of my favourite topics is the de-bunking of the so-called 'history' of the myth of Jesus Christ. To that end, a lady who calls herself 'Acharya S' has an interesting site at http://www.truthbeknown.com/ and there's another (perhaps better as an introduction to the topic) by one Earl Doherty at http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus/jhcjp.htm

But, what the hey? It's Friday night. Fancy a drink? I do.

Ciaio for now.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:29:46 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: www.ex-premie.org
Message:
Are you using www.ex-premie.org? It works for me.
[ www.ex-premie.org ]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:37:18 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: www.ex-premie.org
Message:
I only get 'this page cannot be displayed.' When I go to it off Google, same thing. If I just type it in to my search line above, same thing. Why would this be?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:09:39 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: It takes a little time!
Message:
As we speak there are all these computers (called Name Servers) all round the world saying, 'Pssst, have you heard that www.ex-premie.org has a new address? Here it is. Pass it on.'.

All that's happened is that they haven't yet told the computers where you and me live. I figure that when I can see EPO in Latvia, it's probably reached most places, that's why I haven't announced it yet!

It is good to hear that it's reached San Francisco and Durham, England!

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:25:26 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: fyi, Mr. Server finally reach here (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:12:52 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: okay luv, thank you! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:38:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: housemum
Subject: Attention Computer Nerds!
Message:
Maybe someone can help you out. I'm a bit techie-deficient, so I'm not sure why that is. Maybe someone more knowledgeable than me can help.

I'm just really thrilled to see the site back up on the old address.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:59:38 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: no go
Message:
I've now tried every possible way I can think of and nothing works. Anyone else have this problem? I can access through the links that JHB gave a few days ago, but not www.ex-premie.org Can anybody help with this?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:48:55 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: no go: Go for me...
Message:
Maybe it's your browser...I use Netscape 4.79. It's working fine for me and I used the link from John as well as typing the address into my location bar.

Hmmmm....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:51:20 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It's working now! Ta! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:17:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Hallelujah!!!
Message:
God bless you John.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:26:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Works on Google/Cult Attempts at Priority
Message:
If you do a search on Google in English (IMO the very best search engine), EPO comes up fourth and the link to EPO is working perfectly.

Interesting that 'Maharaji Watch' is sixth.

According to MacGregor, some premies were given the 'service', (sorry, 'participation') to get the cult sites up top on the search engines, and apparently great cult time and cult expense was expended on this. They apparently succeeded to some degree, but it's amazing that with no such efforts, the ex-premie sites are in the top 10 nonetheless.

Plus, love YAHOO, which, on the first entry, lists 'pro' and 'con' sites, and hence EPO is listed number 2.

Lycos used to list sites by amount of traffic, and then EPO was numero uno, because it gets so much more traffic than EV, ELK or M's incredibly boring site, but I'm not sure if Lycos still does that.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:59:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I love Google and I guess I must...
Message:
get my rear in gear with that tape. It's not the content, it's the speech. Is there a deadline, Joe?

It's like, You know, it's like, goomraji's ashrams, and darshan, adn denver and you, know, (interspersed with nostril cleanings, like Felix Unger), and it's like, you know?

I'm working on it, dontcha know? I really really am....

Hardest transcription I've ever done. And believe me, you know? It's like, like, it's like, it's like, you know, (swallowed snot) I've done many.

I am working on it...patience, please...(I'm putting pressure on myself), but I am enjoying the ''service.''

I'm doing my best

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 17:21:27 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: No hurry, Cynth...
Message:
I don't think I could listen to it closely enough to transcribe it. I think I listened to it all the way through twice, and then a couple of sections over again. That was quite enough.

His speech isn't the most coherent, that's for sure. No hurry, though. Take your time.. it's just more drips.

What about that part where he talks about the guy who wanted a wife, that he might have a sex change and then want a husband? What an ignorant thing to say. I always thought M watched altogether too much television and that's why he said a lot of the dumb stuff he did. He thinks the world really is like a situation comedy.

I also thought some of the premies were a bit sanctimonious, talking about how spaced out all the premies are in their communities, unlike them, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 18:58:16 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: No hurry, Cynth...
Message:
Hi Joe,

Yeah, Maharaji is real cool about relationships--he should know, he's had a perfect marriage LOLOL.

Thanks, I want to get the thing done and on the web because it describes in his own words his attitude about a lot of things concerning premies.

The sanctimonious premies were what did we call it? Spiritual Ego? Whatever that is. Yeah, I was on both sides of the fence on that issue during my early years. 1976-78 were years where I drew great criticism about my relationship. After that, I thought anyone who didn't live in the ashram was just plain dumb. Cult programming--who would have though I would get caught up in it?

I've decided that I'm going to try to put old batteries in my tapeplayer, to try to slow him down a bit. :)

Love,
Cynth

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:14:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'no such efforts'???
Message:
If you do a search on Google in English (IMO the very best search engine), EPO comes up fourth and the link to EPO is working perfectly.

Interesting that 'Maharaji Watch' is sixth.

According to MacGregor, some premies were given the 'service', (sorry, 'participation') to get the cult sites up top on the search engines, and apparently great cult time and cult expense was expended on this. They apparently succeeded to some degree, but it's amazing that with no such efforts, the ex-premie sites are in the top 10 nonetheless.

Plus, love YAHOO, which, on the first entry, lists 'pro' and 'con' sites, and hence EPO is listed number 2.

Lycos used to list sites by amount of traffic, and then EPO was numero uno, because it gets so much more traffic than EV, ELK or M's incredibly boring site, but I'm not sure if Lycos still does that.


---

Joe,

This is like the actor who after 20 years in the business became an overnight success! OK, my efforts weren't superhuman, but I did research about what's required to get a site noticed, did what I could without paying the search engines (Erika and friends paid a lot of money to promote Pleaseconsiderthis), and improved EPO's status with most search engines.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:05:02 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I did a search on Google, don't laugh...
Message:
when I read an exchange between Pat Conlon and Suchabanand for:

'Who put the bop' I got 90,700 possibilities. And it's not even ''bop' It's Bomp!

This doesn't mean anything, I just feel good today...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 14:36:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sorry, John
Message:
I didn't realize that you had undertaken that effort. Well, it appears to have paid off! Thanks for that.

How do people 'pay' to promote a website on a search engine, and what does it get them? How much do people have to pay to get an improved position on a search engine?

I guess if Erika & Co., actually paid money for that, it's another reason to think they were asked, or told, or given agya to take their site down. One wouldn't pay money and then just abandon it without something like that happening.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 15:56:46 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Sorry, John
Message:
As I said, my efforts weren't superhuman:-)

Regarding promoting websites, have a look, for instance, at Looksmart. There are various options to have your site reviewed or otherwise promoted. Do a search on Maharaji, and you will see that Pleaseconsiderthis and Maharaji's site are reviewed sites. When you see in a search listing 'Reviewed Sites' or 'Featured Sites', they are always at the top, and the owners have paid money. When I was looking into this, I found that Pleaseconsiderthis was promoted with every search engine that provided this service. Not cheap, especially considering that they are no longer saying anything!

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 13:14:59 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Hackers beware
Message:
Don't try it again.

Thanks to all the folks who took care of the site and saw that it was put back up. I am amazed that some rabid premies would be so afraid of this information that they felt compelled to hack the site. I guess they just aren't feeling that peace.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:02:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hear! Hear! Marianne [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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