Jethro -:- to former instructors -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:51:36 (EST)

__ janet -:- the fuck you video -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:34:42 (EST)

__ __ Jethro -:- It was not Micheal Donner -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 09:28:31 (EST)

__ Didn't you know? -:- Re: to former instructors -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:26:53 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- Re: to former instructors -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:07:11 (EST)

Quiet -:- A very serious Question!!! -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:36:14 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Are you serious? -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 06:29:45 (EST)

Babs -:- A Latvian Afternoon in Boulder -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:13:57 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Re: A Latvian Afternoon in Boulder -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:45:55 (EST)

__ __ Babs -:- Oh, Richard -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:09:47 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Malibu Screw? Hi, Babs -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 03:50:51 (EST)

Richard -:- This just in from EV FirstClass -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:33:13 (EST)

__ To FC Moles -:- Re: $85 Payment -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 09:49:30 (EST)

__ Moll of Mole -:- Re: This just in from EV FirstClass -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:44:26 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- This part's interesting -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 00:29:02 (EST)

__ __ __ silvia -:- Re: This part's interesting -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:15:52 (EST)

__ __ __ Barbara -:- My guess would be... -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'll believe it when I see it. -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:28:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- that's what I said -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:14:54 (EST)

__ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: This part's interesting -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:53 (EST)

__ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: This part's interesting -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:47 (EST)

__ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: This part's interesting -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:43 (EST)

__ __ salsa -:- Changes, Changes: OLE! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:19:32 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- It's, it's... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:25:49 (EST)

__ __ salsa -:- ROFL nt ()) -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:20:23 (EST)

__ The Maharaji of Malibu -:- must replace EV.... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:50:45 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Well, GOOD! LOLOLOLOL! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:05:13 (EST)

PatC -:- Maharaji's letter to an instructor -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:30:24 (EST)

__ Mirror -:- Seen from a nondual perspective -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:59:58 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 06:54:27 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- I saw the original -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:53:39 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: I saw the original -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 03:58:28 (EST)

__ __ __ Loafie -:- Re: I saw the original -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:54:40 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- It's exactly like -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:54:58 (EST)

__ Moley -:- And not just to an instructor -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:45:57 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- * Permanent home on EPO - a must * -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:39:50 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Oh...My....GAWDDDDD!!!! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:13:20 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Is Maharaji INSANE? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:31:34 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Doing the right for the wrong reason -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:47:20 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Bullshit -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:40:14 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Bullshit -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:41:38 (EST)

__ housemum -:- we used to believe this shit (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:36:02 (EST)

__ Joy -:- This is my favorite line -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:33:49 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- i had the original -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:29:36 (EST)

__ Bryn -:- Aaaargh!! Take it away! nt -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:14:59 (EST)

Vicki -:- Hocus Pocus -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:58:13 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Like Gerry's Brain Wave Generator -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:04:13 (EST)

__ Cynth -:- Re: Hocus Pocus -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:25:18 (EST)

Barry -:- M's new money making machine... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:02:20 (EST)

__ Hillary Swiggum -:- Cheers to forum 7 -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:06:43 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Cheers to you too, Hillary :) [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:32:59 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- That was funny as shit }) LOL -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:33:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia to Barry -:- All I wanted for Christmas... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:21:30 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Why thank you!(nt) -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:47:14 (EST)

Harry to Tonette -:- re: I am just now writing to you -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:30:25 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- The Personality of Cult... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:31:26 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Re: re: I am just now writing to you -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:37:07 (EST)

__ Moll of Mole -:- Re: re: I am just now writing to you -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:12:24 (EST)

Baiyan -:- What doesn`t Maharaji want? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:21:10 (EST)

__ Quiet -:- Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want? -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:54:35 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Public Programs -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:46:23 (EST)

__ Barry -:- Heres something I want to give him! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:16:28 (EST)

__ __ Impressed fan -:- WOW! That's cool man [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:52:09 (EST)

__ Subedei -:- Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:30:37 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want?? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:33:52 (EST)

__ __ Anandaji -:- The press -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:07:41 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Not exactly true, Anandaji... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:34:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ silvia -:- we have a lot -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:26:12 (EST)

__ __ Baiyan -:- Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:45:25 (EST)

Jim -:- Calling a spade a spade, Harry -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:11:08 (EST)

__ berni -:- Re: Calling a spade a spade, Harry -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:25:55 (EST)

__ Lesley -:- Charming is as charming does -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:16:09 (EST)

__ Barry -:- Hey! Thanks for the 'Hello' on my thread man? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:20:37 (EST)

__ __ Barry -:- Ya Bum! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:23:50 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Here's some more bum art -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:21:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Aaagh bless, he's trying so hard -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:11:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Georgia O'Keeffe -:- Who woke me up? Where am I? What is this crap? -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:16:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Gina -:- 'Bum' art...Is it me or does the center of... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:37:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Barry -:- The price really bummed me out! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:52:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Read the blurb -- it's hilarious -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:25:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- art therapy for the goo? (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:03:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Re: Read the blurb -- it's hilarious -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:54:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Read the blurb -- it's hilarious...Jim -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:48:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- LOL LOL LOL!!! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:55:59 (EST)

gale beckwith -:- islam vs christianity -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:52:44 (EST)

__ JohnT -:- Sat Chit-Chatroom -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:10:20 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Gail Beckwith... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:01:22 (EST)

__ __ Gale Beckwith -:- Re: Gail Beckwith... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:51:34 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well, how about that... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:45:10 (EST)

__ Eddie Haskell -:- Good Evening, Mr. Cleaver -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:26:59 (EST)

Barry -:- I've been away, but I'm back! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:59:23 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- hello barry.. -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:59:35 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Welcome back Barry... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:55:08 (EST)

__ __ Barry -:- good to be back Cynth! -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:57:04 (EST)

Suedoula -:- Very prophetic -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:31:12 (EST)

__ Gina -:- We were SO young & innocent -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:26:54 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- hey-did charnamrit -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 05:53:19 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- I grok what you're saying... [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:40:44 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Twenty Six Years Ago Today... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 10:03:06 (EST)

__ Anandaji -:- Happy Free Day! [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:18:23 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Happy un-birthday -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:51:55 (EST)

__ housemum -:- a question, Cynthia -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:42:22 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: a question, Cynthia -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:21:06 (EST)

__ Suedoula -:- Re: Twenty Six Years Ago Today... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:12:00 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Mike D... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:33:46 (EST)

__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Twenty Six Years Ago Today... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:07:16 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Steve... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:27:32 (EST)

Salam -:- byebye -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:24:45 (EST)

__ silvia -:- bye -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:40:10 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Excellent post, Salam -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:28:25 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Re: Excellent post, Salam -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:51:32 (EST)

Quiet -:- The Rawalt Family -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 08:48:37 (EST)

__ janet -:- you really want me to???? -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 06:08:48 (EST)

__ __ Livia -:- Re: you really want me to???? -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 09:52:54 (EST)

__ __ Quiet -:- Re: you really want me to???? -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:38:27 (EST)

__ Mike Finch -:- Re: The Rawalt Family -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:21:12 (EST)

__ __ Quiet -:- Re: The Rawalt Family -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:56:17 (EST)

Disculta -:- 'Dying while Living' -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 08:32:06 (EST)

__ Suedoula -:- And another thing . . . -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:25:12 (EST)

__ Barbara -:- Living while dying -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:04:05 (EST)

__ housemum -:- Re: 'Dying while Living' -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:09:45 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Re: 'Dying while Living' -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:04:38 (EST)

__ Quiet -:- Re: 'Dying while Living' -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:20:42 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- To Quiet -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:43:23 (EST)

__ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: To Quiet -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:49:22 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Quiet... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:38:27 (EST)

__ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: Hi Quiet... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:56:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hi Quiet... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:52:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: Hi Quiet... -:- Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:59:48 (EST)

__ Suedoula -:- Re: 'Dying while Living' -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:49:37 (EST)

__ Livia -:- Re: 'Dying while Living' -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:41:12 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- This is an important thread... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 10:47:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: This is an important thread... -:- Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:27:27 (EST)

Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:51:36 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: All Subject: to former instructors Message:

Thinking about them, i ask myself what these people are doing now. Most of them left long ago,but few post on the net or volunteer information. /initiators/,mahatmas/bais An instructor once told me that m gives people k, but he gives instructors an extra twiddle. Is this why you people keep quiet? Lee Marges(I think she an Australian honcho now) told me that on her instructor training session held in Penang(late 80s), you all lined up and helped Maharaji make the 'fuck you' video that he wanted to send to someone who had disagreed with m on something. Well you others(exs or not), where are you now? Was Lee making it up? Stop hiding away.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:34:42 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Jethro Subject: the fuck you video Message:

michael donner came here to tell us among other things that he was the indended recipient of that video, which was maharaji's way of kicking him in the teeth when he formally resigned and told MJ whay he couldn't serve him any more. maybe he'll comment again for you.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 09:28:31 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: janet Subject: It was not Micheal Donner Message:

I asked him when he came online. he had never hearsd of the 'fuck you' video

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:26:53 (EST) From: Didn't you know? Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: to former instructors Message:

LM - Still an instructor

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:07:11 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: to former instructors Message:

i was a part time instructor candidate - in the late 80s, by which time there were no 'extra twiddles'. two friends of mine from that instructor conference left shortly afterwards.. Chris Hytch and Helen Brown - i liked em both a lot and hope they are doing well and are happy. Christine Hytch was praised bt M for the quality of her 'satsang'... and I think that just about put the nail in the coffin for her.. and helen brown was given quite a hard time by M when she expressed a question. Mike Finch was there, he might remember what happened.. it was a strange and unsatisfying week in which I can now see that he didnt know what he was doing. Unlike the blast of darshan.. a weeks exposure to him left more doubt than clarity really.. and if it hadnt have been for the prestige of attending, and for the sense of self-importance which he encouraged (and then criticised)... i would have been un-impressed with the whole thing. I remember him being really funny, but I also remember him reading word -for word the instructor manual and adding bits of half baked psycho-babble which perhaps Dr Kassorla taught him. It was a badly planned and unfocussed week-long seminar which went no-where. It makes me wonder, how any human psychology could survive the decades of flattery and power which M. has 'enjoyed'. Of course he has 'lost touch'..he believes that he is right... even when he is wrong. All the best Loafie

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:36:14 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: All Subject: A very serious Question!!! Message:

Has anyone beeen around the Big M when he farted? I meen it must be something considering all the chillies he eats!!!! Now thats a good satsang subject 'I was blown away by The Lord' *roflmao*

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 06:29:45 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Are you serious? Message:

We here in England KNOW that the royal family memembers neither fart nor go to the tiolet....so how much so for the (Maha-Raj) 'THe Greatest King'. The only farting story I have heard about m is that he was in a room with several people watching a film and someone farted. After the smell began to enter the convection current and pefmeate the room, everyone was silent and pretending that it didn't happen(premies are good at that)........except for prempal who picked up his own chair(I kid you not, he actually picked up his own chair) and left the room (I think making a comment about the others being stupid by sitting in that stink).

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:13:57 (EST) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: All Subject: A Latvian Afternoon in Boulder Message:

I haven't posted on the Forum since it was Forum 5; sorry, I've been busy enjoying life; but I just have to share with all of you, especially those exes who lived at COLL, how much fun it was for Nona, Sahna, and Babs to get together at the Boulder Dushanbe Teahouse this afternoon and shriek with laughter at our memories of the bad old days... The teahouse was originally built in Tajikistan and shipped to Boulder where it was reassembled just off the Pearl Street Mall. The ceiling is intricately carved and painted, and the exterior is covered with beautiful ceramic tiles. Incredible spot, just like a temple. And it was an unseasonably warm, sunny day. Ah, the grace... Anyway, we meant to chat over chai, and ended up staying three hours. Nona and Sahna both have Ph.D's and I never even finished my undergraduate work, but I've found that friends who bonded in youth tend to be non-judgmental when they meet again later in life. We swapped stories about how we got into and out of the cult and mostly just feasted our eyes on each other. Do you remember the old expression, 'Holy Company?' I felt that same sort of gratitude, being in their presence, and realizing that we are all Survivors. We made it out alive, and made good lives for ourselves, in spite of everything we endured. It was a real 'high,' and I highly recommend these get-togethers. They are so validating... Last week my husband Ralph (never a premie) and our teenage daughter Julie (thinks I must have been nuts) and I had dinner with Spencer, an ex from Houston, and his wife Linda, also an ex. A good time was had by all. Spencer brought a stack of photos of people I used to call Sister and Brother back in the seventies. What a revelation! It was such a struggle even remembering their names, I began to realize what an amnesiac I am about my premie days. (Julie especially liked the picture of mom in the flower costume, which I have no memory of at all.) But we were never encouraged to get to know each other in normal, human ways. We didn't talk about our lives or our families or our likes and dislikes; any talk other than satsang was a product of our enemy, the mind. Turns out we all have really great stories to tell... Another ex named Gregg, whom I met recently through the EPO, has come over a couple of times to join in the 'Music Nights' at our house, and any other exes lurking in the woodwork in the former International Headquarters area are cordially invited to contact me by e-mail if you think that you, too, might enjoy hanging with others who walked away long ago and never looked back. So far, the exes I've met (and re-met) are wonderful, warm, interesting people. Probably a lot like we were before we received Knowledge. Only a lot older. Oh yeah - I am still such a scatterbrain - I told Sahna I'd ask around on the Forum and see if anybody knows what happened to Larry Manning. Much love to all of you from the Gossip Queens of COLL, hugs and kisses all around. Let's do lunch. Babsie

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:45:55 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Babs Subject: Re: A Latvian Afternoon in Boulder Message:

Babs, So nice to hear your voice again. Always good to get your perspective, especially the part about your get together being Holy Company. I feel the same way when I see oldtimers whether they be PWK or EX. We shared something in common that brought us to the 'party' in the first place. And we still share much of that. I love the photo of the Gossip Queens of COLL. You are all absolutely fabulous gorgeous babes, you sweety darlings. Richard

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:09:47 (EST) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Richard Subject: Oh, Richard Message:

You would understand why this is so funny. We went to see Les Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo ( "The Trock" ) last week at the Paramount, which I am sure you recall is located in the Kittredge Building, and as I was making my laborious way out of the theater after the performance - it was a full house - I noticed that the featured drink of the evening was a Malibu Screw.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 03:50:51 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Babs Subject: Malibu Screw? Hi, Babs Message:

Babs, were your ears burning last week? Your name was mentioned here by housemum but I've been wondering on of off how you are, knowing of course that you were fine. Also wondering where you got to in August. I thought we were going to have a special Latvian night for you when you came out west. I guess the Kittredge Building was meant to be the venue of farces; first the Pickled Divine Family Circus from Hardwar and then Les Ballets Trockadero de Monte Carlo. Thanks for the report from the trenches. I hope you will deign to share some of your wonderful writings with us again. :C) Exes are great. They joined the cult for all the right reasons and left for the right reasons too. All the exes I have met are special. Those who joined to idolize the Revved Rawat have also got what they wanted.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:33:13 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: All Subject: This just in from EV FirstClass Message:

Well, not just in. It took the carrier pigeon since Monday to reach here from it's source. Thanks source. Anyway, FirstClass is the private (hah) email system used by EV to communicate with the provinces. This message is to inform the FirstClass users they'll now be paying for the privelege of reading future missives. BTW: NAM is EV code for North America, not a SE Asian country. This reminds me. Recently I heard from an ex that a premie involved with event organization had received word that Élan Vital was being dismantled. Further, instructors have been told to get real jobs or some other means of support. If true, M will surely demonize EV as being the reason propogation has failed. Virtually all premie dissatisfaction these days is directed at EV and never M. If he flushes EV, M becomes the hero and EV the scapegoat. Richard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Monday, January 21, 2002 6:28:04 PM Message From: Larry Leblang - US Subject: Changes in FirstClass email system Dear all – I hope everyone is having a happy 2002. We have all seen the efforts to streamline and simplify Elan Vital and the volunteer teams in NAM, over the past 6 months. Now we are streamlining our FirstClass email system. While Elan Vital and Visions will continue to provide support for international tours, broadcasts and materials and other core activities, FirstClass will now be used mostly for communications and business, and the number of users is anticipated to be reduced significantly. Effective January 31, 2002 all users are being asked to review their use of First Class to determine if their participation is still appropriate. Consult with your “Area Manager” if in doubt. Most FirstClass Conferences will also be closed at that time. All users who wish to continue with First Class will be asked to pay a fee of $85 for the remainder of 2002 to cover costs associated with FC administration and related expenses, and to return an application and confidentiality agreement by February 15th. After that date, access will only be available to individuals who chose to register and whose confidentiality agreement and payment have been received. Payment information and an application/ confidentiality agreement will follow shortly. Thanks for your participation. Larry Leblang, General Manager of Elan Vital

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 09:49:30 (EST) From: To FC Moles Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: $85 Payment Message:

All four should register and pay -funds forwarded to usual code word: kaVork

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:44:26 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: This just in from EV FirstClass Message:

Here is some more news from first class just in from our friends in Australia. News from Visions Jennifer Murfett, Jeanne McNicol, Derek Harper from Australia and Pandeyan from Malaysia attended a tele-conference call with Susan Hubly, Carol O’Connell, and Willow Baker from Visions this week. We are excited to forward the current news and new developments in the production of materials. Susan presented the current status with Visions: By the end of March, Visions will have moved out of their present facility, as they cannot afford the cost of these premises. There will be 2 or 3 of the present staff remaining at that time. Visions is continuing to scale down. The effort is now going into preserving and maintaining archival footage for M to make use of when producing new materials. Visions are selling off as much of the remaining materials as possible as they won’t have the warehouse space to store them. There is considerable stock of videos and audios, music, publications and Hindi material available at cost or below. The Hindi material may be very useful for countries that cannot afford to duplicate their own material. Visions will no longer be selling any products or materials at events. Aspirare, the company that has produced the Gift Items, will determine what is to happen in the future. The contributions to Visions via the Broadcast and Materials fund (Propagation Fund) will continue and even expand to support the production of materials that Maharaji is now undertaking. Visions will be the financial hub to support M’s vision. Carol presented exciting new projects in the pipeline: The broadcasts will be changing in the near future. The format may include edited features, interviews, quotes and viewer’s questions being answered by M. There will be a period of rebroadcasting to allow time for new materials to take shape. There will possibly be only 1 or 2 new broadcasts per month during this time. In the US and UK the name for the broadcast channel has been changed from Elan Vital to Maharaji, emphasizing the shift away from the organization when it comes to presenting Maharaji and Knowledge. The major sense with all materials now is that M is producing them himself, allowing him to communicate to the world. Things are happening in the materials area to match his vision. * M has done an interview for a mainstream publication that has worldwide distribution, which names him as the pre-eminent teacher of self-knowledge in the world today. * A major TV special is planned about M. * A special video is being produced about the Knowledge process. Willow presented new developments in the publication of translated materials: A new web site that will run in conjunction with M’s new web site which will offer downloadable PDF files of propagation materials. They will be available in many languages and will bring the archival material to life. There are plans to centre them around 4 themes e.g. “Your Existence”. The release of these materials is important so there is an emphasis on the translation area. People with the ability to translate the written word are needed to further this project. Willow is asking for contacts in all countries. She will work directly with these people and provide them with guidelines and all the information required. You can contact her through the ANT Materials contacts- (Jeanne McNicol & Derek Harper). Message from Susan re Hindi materials: I have attached a listing of all Hindi videos and audios that have been produced. Visions will be closing their warehouse in March and do have some stock of Hindi materials. I don't have an updated inventory to tell you what we have in stock, but my thought was that if you could use some Hindi materials, you could check off the titles you would be interested in and we would ship you what we have. Your part would be to take care of the shipping cost, though any extra contributions would be welcomed. Please note that prices of Gift Items in the attached file are in US$ and extra charges for shipping, GST and Govt charges will apply. News from Visions Jennifer Murfett, Jeanne McNicol, Derek Harper from Australia and Pandeyan from Malaysia attended a tele-conference call with Susan Hubly, Carol O’Connell, and Willow Baker from Visions this week. We are excited to forward the current news and new developments in the production of materials. Susan presented the current status with Visions: By the end of March, Visions will have moved out of their present facility, as they cannot afford the cost of these premises. There will be 2 or 3 of the present staff remaining at that time. Visions is continuing to scale down. The effort is now going into preserving and maintaining archival footage for M to make use of when producing new materials. Visions are selling off as much of the remaining materials as possible as they won’t have the warehouse space to store them. There is considerable stock of videos and audios, music, publications and Hindi material available at cost or below. The Hindi material may be very useful for countries that cannot afford to duplicate their own material. Visions will no longer be selling any products or materials at events. Aspirare, the company that has produced the Gift Items, will determine what is to happen in the future. The contributions to Visions via the Broadcast and Materials fund (Propagation Fund) will continue and even expand to support the production of materials that Maharaji is now undertaking. Visions will be the financial hub to support M’s vision. Carol presented exciting new projects in the pipeline: The broadcasts will be changing in the near future. The format may include edited features, interviews, quotes and viewer’s questions being answered by M. There will be a period of rebroadcasting to allow time for new materials to take shape. There will possibly be only 1 or 2 new broadcasts per month during this time. In the US and UK the name for the broadcast channel has been changed from Elan Vital to Maharaji, emphasizing the shift away from the organization when it comes to presenting Maharaji and Knowledge. The major sense with all materials now is that M is producing them himself, allowing him to communicate to the world. Things are happening in the materials area to match his vision. * M has done an interview for a mainstream publication that has worldwide distribution, which names him as the pre-eminent teacher of self-knowledge in the world today. * A major TV special is planned about M. * A special video is being produced about the Knowledge process. Willow presented new developments in the publication of translated materials: A new web site that will run in conjunction with M’s new web site which will offer downloadable PDF files of propagation materials. They will be available in many languages and will bring the archival material to life. There are plans to centre them around 4 themes e.g. “Your Existence”. The release of these materials is important so there is an emphasis on the translation area. People with the ability to translate the written word are needed to further this project. Willow is asking for contacts in all countries. She will work directly with these people and provide them with guidelines and all the information required. You can contact her through the ANT Materials contacts- (Jeanne McNicol & Derek Harper). Message from Susan re Hindi materials: I have attached a listing of all Hindi videos and audios that have been produced. Visions will be closing their warehouse in March and do have some stock of Hindi materials. I don't have an updated inventory to tell you what we have in stock, but my thought was that if you could use some Hindi materials, you could check off the titles you would be interested in and we would ship you what we have. Your part would be to take care of the shipping cost, though any extra contributions would be welcomed. Please note that prices of Gift Items in the attached file are in US$ and extra charges for shipping, GST and Govt charges will apply.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 00:29:02 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Moll of Mole Subject: This part's interesting Message:

The major sense with all materials now is that M is producing them himself, allowing him to communicate to the world. Things are happening in the materials area to match his vision. * M has done an interview for a mainstream publication that has worldwide distribution, which names him as the pre-eminent teacher of self-knowledge in the world today. * A major TV special is planned about M. * A special video is being produced about the Knowledge process. What kind of magazine would give M such a gentle puff-piece? The Cult Leader Investment Journal? Can't wait.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:15:52 (EST) From: silvia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: This part's interesting Message:

The more changes the better. Changes bring new material the premies HAVE to have causing lard to continue generating money. How sad!...and we are contributing suggesting changes, or bringing up complaints? Just kidding? What a smart dude!

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:53 (EST) From: Barbara Email: None To: Jim Subject: My guess would be... Message:

Kurt Anderson doing some spin in the New Yorker. Whatever mag it's in probably has some premie connection pushing it given that Maharaji generally flies below the general pop culture radar. I guess hacking EPO foreshadows big press coverage and was a pre-emptive strike.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:28:23 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Barbara Subject: I'll believe it when I see it. Message:

These great plans for rescusitating a dying cult will now be preserved in the forum archives forever. No one gave a time-line for implementing all these divine new changes and schemes. Let's see if any of them ever take place. Rawat is running out of new footage because he is not doing many public programs. He knows that he looks like a jaded debauchee when he talks directly to the camera without an adoring audience. The audience brings him to life and he looks passable. Trouble is what recent footage he does have is like the Atlanta training video - a dangerous self-indictment. He now has to carefully edit everything. Poor bugger will probably blow that too. More swans swimming in slomo through whispering waterfalls. (''I never said I was god I simply meant that the master's purity should never be doubted because he reminds you how wonderful life is.'') I just wonder how much of his private stash of money he will be willing to use to propagate this beautiful Special K or if he'll just stop when the donations dry up. He could always get a job at Hallmark.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:14:54 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Barbara Subject: that's what I said Message:

the idea was to try to knock out EPO and any damning evidence that people might go look for on the net once they see the PR pieces. My post ran a few days ago here, saying this. doubtless its bonthaus's idea. have your keyboards ready when it hits the fan.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:53 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: This part's interesting Message:

If the Big m is going public there is a chance for him to have to face the music. When can we find out the full details of the events( sorry bad word)NO PRESS COULD RESIST THE OPPOTUNITY TO ASK HIM ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS AGAINST HIM. Finally, his ego has gone from the extreme to the rediculous.........GOOD! Happy hunting.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:47 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: This part's interesting Message:

If the Big m is going public there is a chance for him to have to face the music. When can we find out the full details of the events( sorry bad word)NO PRESS COULD RESIST THE OPPOTUNITY TO ASK HIM ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS AGAINST HIM. Finally, his ego has gone from the extreme to the rediculous.........GOOD! Happy hunting.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:19:43 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: This part's interesting Message:

If the Big m is going public there is a chance for him to have to face the music. When can we find out the full details of the events( sorry bad word)NO PRESS COULD RESIST THE OPPOTUNITY TO ASK HIM ABOUT THE COMPLAINTS AGAINST HIM. Finally, his ego has gone from the extreme to the rediculous.........GOOD! Happy hunting.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:19:32 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Moll of Mole Subject: Changes, Changes: OLE! Message:

he is listening to what is being said here veeeeeeeeeeeery much! juajuajua ROFL! Oh maharaji, why don't you just give it ALL up, once and for all. That is what I want and I know, what all ex-premies want. go to hell maharaji!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:25:49 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Richard Subject: It's, it's... Message:

It's the incredible shrinking cult.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:20:23 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: ROFL nt ()) Message:

juajuajuajujauajuajajajahahahahhahahaha

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:50:45 (EST) From: The Maharaji of Malibu Email: None To: Richard Subject: must replace EV.... Message:

...with another organization of sorts. He can never be in a position where blame for failure can't be delegated elsewhere. A lie is only as good as the liar.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:05:13 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: The Maharaji of Malibu Subject: Well, GOOD! LOLOLOLOL! Message:

Let everything be called MAHARAJI and that way, who's he gonna blame during the next phase?? Sir Dave, you gave me have great belly laugh and the lawd knows I need it. What the bleep are they, the bleeping CIA, National Security Counsel? NAM=North American? It reminds me of Colonel Flagg the bungling CIA agent in the TV series M*A*S*H! HAhaHAhaHAhAhAHA!!!!! LOLOLOL

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:30:24 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Maharaji's letter to an instructor Message:

I got this email today from a friend who is currently dealing with exiting the cult and who reads the forum but does not yet post here. I have enclosed a letter that M wrote in 1982. I had forgotten I had it with so much going on in me at the moment. Recently people have been posting excerpts from Durga Ji's old satsangs. I was reading the absolute subservience evident in her satsang and pivoted, realising that I was emerging from this same complete trust and Blind Faith in him. The things m said in the enclosed letter are in no way ambiguous. They summate all that I, and I am sure we all, Hoped for and believed in. I am angry that the sentiments expressed here were ones that I held so precious. I held a longing to serve and merge with the being that I thought was 'All of That.' Jokes on me, I am very dis-illusioned..(Good thing no?) Ouch..... Enclosed letter from Rawat to an instructor written in 1982 I Am With You When You Meditate And When You Do Not Meditate. I Am In You And You Are In Me. It Is Only In Your Mind That The Barriers Of What Are Yours And What Is Mine Exist. Yet Only With Your Heart Can You Know And Perceive Me. Empty Your Heart Of Ignorant Fears. When You Do Not Bring Your Personality Between Us, I Will Be With You. By Yourself You Cannot Do Anything But I Can Do Anything And Am With You. Even If You Cannot See The Good, The Good Is There Because I Am There All The Time. Only Through Me Does The World Go Forward Without Destroying Itself. Because I Am The Law On Which The Movement Of The Stars And The Growth Of Every Living Cell Rests. I Am The Love Which Is The Fulfillment Of The Law. I Am Your Security, I Am Your Peace, I Am Your Everything. Even If You Do Not Find Me, I Will Always Find You. If Your Faith In Me Is Weak, My Faith In You Is Faultless. Although You Give Your Trust And Love To Others Without Reason, You Need Me, I Am Here With You. You Cannot See Me, Yet I Am The Light Which Allows You To See Me. You Cannot Hear Me, Yet I Speak Through Your Voice. You Cannot Feel Me, Yet I Am The Power Which Works In Your Hands. I Work Inside Of You Even If You Do Not Recognize My Works. I Am Not A Strange Vision, I Am Not A Mystery. Alone In Absolute Silence, Beyond The Personality Which You Can Enter As A Feeling And As A Faith, I Am Still With You, I Still Hear You. I Still Answer You. When You Need Me I Am With You And I Love You. In Those Moments When You Must Be Alone, I Am With You. Even In Your Fears And Even In Your Grief, Even If You Deny Me, I Am With You. My Love Is Just For You Alone Because I Know You And I Love You.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:59:58 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: PatC Subject: Seen from a nondual perspective Message:

I Am With You When You Meditate And When You Do Not Meditate. I Am In You And You Are In Me. It Is Only In Your Mind That The Barriers Of What Are Yours And What Is Mine Exist. Yet Only With Your Heart Can You Know And Perceive Me. Empty Your Heart Of Ignorant Fears. When You Do Not Bring Your Personality Between Us, I Will Be With You. By Yourself You Cannot Do Anything But I Can Do Anything And Am With You. Even If You Cannot See The Good, The Good Is There Because I Am There All The Time. Only Through Me Does The World Go Forward Without Destroying Itself. Because I Am The Law On Which The Movement Of The Stars And The Growth Of Every Living Cell Rests. I Am The Love Which Is The Fulfillment Of The Law. I Am Your Security, I Am Your Peace, I Am Your Everything. Even If You Do Not Find Me, I Will Always Find You. If Your Faith In Me Is Weak, My Faith In You Is Faultless. Although You Give Your Trust And Love To Others Without Reason, You Need Me, I Am Here With You. You Cannot See Me, Yet I Am The Light Which Allows You To See Me. You Cannot Hear Me, Yet I Speak Through Your Voice. You Cannot Feel Me, Yet I Am The Power Which Works In Your Hands. I Work Inside Of You Even If You Do Not Recognize My Works. I Am Not A Strange Vision, I Am Not A Mystery. Alone In Absolute Silence, Beyond The Personality Which You Can Enter As A Feeling And As A Faith, I Am Still With You, I Still Hear You. I Still Answer You. When You Need Me I Am With You And I Love You. In Those Moments When You Must Be Alone, I Am With You. Even In Your Fears And Even In Your Grief, Even If You Deny Me, I Am With You. My Love Is Just For You Alone Because I Know You And I Love You. --- Seen from the perspective of M's claim of being the lord of the universe, he does have the truth on his side in this letter... (ok, ok, don't jump all over me rightaway, hang on...) The sense of 'I AM', is not something personal. It is the universal awareness of existence that is present in all beings. Everyone (at least human beings with a reasonable level of consciousness) is aware that they 'ARE'. The sense of 'I am' can therefor be said to be 'God' or 'presentness' or 'creator/creation'. Seen from that perspective, the letter is true. However, normal interpretation of this kind of vocabulary leads us to believe that the writer is not referring to the omnipresent sense of 'I am', but rather to his personal existence as a human entity. Reading this letter from this more widely accepted interpretation of 'I am', I'd have to say... BULL!!! Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 06:54:27 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: PatC Subject: Message:

I saw a bookletr called 'The Guru Maharaj Ji Gita' (certainly before 1980). It is a supposed conversation between Durga Ji and M at their Malibu home one winter's eve. It was written in the style of the Bagava Gita, ie a conversation between a devotee and their Lord. You friend's quotes above certainly come from that document. Anyway, it's quite obvious that it's a Bagava Gita ripoff. Jethro

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:53:39 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: PatC Subject: I saw the original Message:

It ended up in the hands of a Premie called martin who lived in east london - it was definitely written prior to 1982, cos thats when I saw it - and i recognised the handwriting from M's signature ' Sant ji Maharaj' Martin also had a few shirts of M's from the early 70s.. so my assumption would be that this letter came to him at about the same time. He was an unlikely recipient for such objects, being about as far from ashram mentality as it were possible to get ! The story I heard was that M had written this at a desk in silence in formt of a number of instructors who were waiting to ask him something.. and the story goes that M simply left the room without speaking and left only this note behind. Could be rubbish, and the note I saw note could have been a fake.. after all there were a couple of spelling mistakes. PS Re Dermott, re the Who - there is a connection cos Malcolm Livingstone famed illustrator of childrens books (you still in touch Anth ?) designed the 'TOMMY' logo - and also the Cult in TOMMY was based on DLM - or at least so I am reliably informed by unreliable sources.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 03:58:28 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: I saw the original Message:

I saw a copy of it before 82 because by then I had dropped out of premiedom but had forgotten it until I got this email. I haven't heard your story before. At the time I understood that copies were sent to several instructors. But I have heard your story about Tommy and also that Ken Russell got a lot of his ideas from talking with a premie who worked on the set.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:54:40 (EST) From: Loafie Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: I saw the original Message:

The one I saw was handwritten on a sheet of writing paper (not A4) and not a photocopy. A friend of mine made a version of it, superimposing the text ontop of a 1979 photo of Maharaji and he included the speling errors. I dont know if I still have a copy of it, I had a bonfire about 3 yrs ago - but I do have a few interesting trinkets, such as a fairly recent short hair photo of maharaji in his Krishna Suit.. but sans crown. The way I have come to look upon M's written piece is the way i also look upon 'channellers' - they have permission to say things that they 'normally wouldnt' and they allow themselves to believe what they say by making it slightly impersonal.... albeit through a third party or in the third person. I actually find the mundane examples of M's arrogance much more worrying than the wide spiritual sentiments of the star struck guru - I cannot challenge the huge e.e. cummings style sentiments of lofty aspiration.. but when he behaves like a jumped up prat, he deflates his own edifice. I bet he never thought that he would be caught out by things that he didnt think mattered. Loaf

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:54:58 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: PatC Subject: It's exactly like Message:

the shite MEHER BABA used to turn out by the bookfulls. Pete Townsend ('the who' band) was his follower for a while. The Guru was a starnge looking geezer.....a cross between Salvador Dali and Albert Einstein. Great shite writer though:)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:45:57 (EST) From: Moley Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com To: PatC Subject: And not just to an instructor Message:

I remember this little speech. It was sent out to pwks by Elan Vital in the (I think)early 90s. Gawd! Strange act for the revisionist I-am-not-God-it-was-just-your-big-mistake days!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:39:50 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: PatC Subject: * Permanent home on EPO - a must * Message:

Yes, this is exactly how it was during the heavy-duty devotional years. Shove this vainglorious, messianic shite in the face of any visiting revisionist who would ever dare suggest Mr Rawat never claimed to be the living incarnation. 'Ozymandias am I...' indeed.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:13:20 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: PatC Subject: Oh...My....GAWDDDDD!!!! Message:

Pat, Do you realize what this is? This is proof of the brainwashing technique used on every premie. This is proof he lied. This is proof of the torture his instructors were subject to. This must be a permanent part of EPO, without question. I have to print this out. It sounds just like Jim Jones, I shit you not. Ask Marianne. Oh, my, God. And I don't even believe in god. Please extend thanks and support to your friend who gave a this to you. Those are my comments Deb 8)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:31:34 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: Is Maharaji INSANE? Message:

Just wondering what you think?

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:47:20 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Doing the right for the wrong reason Message:

He's delusional. I practiced Special K for 28 years and some of the altered states that it induces are akin to being stoned on cannabis or mushrooms or E. The imagination is stimulated. Heavy stoners and drinkers (and it seems - satgurus) begin to believe that their imaginings are real. I think he gets his jollies from being worshipped and of course he thought cows were gods when he was growing up. :C) A bit loopy like a stoner but more like a conceited coke user - more greed and egotism than a toker. Definitely not sane......but insane? That's a word that I associate with evil not mere mental problems. Those are usually just damaging to the person suffering from them not others. He may just be guilty of doing the right thing (he thinks) for the wrong reason which, as Shakespeare said, is the last and greatest treason.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:40:14 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: PatC Subject: Bullshit Message:

I can't believe this crap,well I can ,but not that Rawat wrote it himself. The depth of his contempt for his followers is what REALLY pisses me off. Getting some ecstatic to run off a letter like that whilst he's out revving up his latest toy car is sickening. Anyway,whether he wrote it himself or not he signed it as coming fro m himself, & it rings clear as a bell. I AM THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE. Crash & burn motherfucker,time is coming soon.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 23:41:38 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: PatD Subject: Re: Bullshit Message:

Yeah, I agree, he never wrote this himself. He just doesn't use that many words. But he signed it. I remember it.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:36:02 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: PatC Subject: we used to believe this shit (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:33:49 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: PatC Subject: This is my favorite line Message:

'I Am the Law On Which The Movement Of the Stars And Every Living Cell Rests' . . . makes Arti sound tame. Unbelievable. I wonder where the poor instructor who was the recipient of this BS is now? Hope he's not having too much trouble finding a real world job (as quoted in letter in Richard's thread above). I wonder whose idea the Capitalization was? M's? Perhaps to make it sound more profound? This really shows the depths to which Maharaji himself is confused. Does he really, REALLY believe this? If so, he is one deluded puppy. Quite, quite sad, if it wasn't so scary.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:29:36 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Joy Subject: i had the original Message:

on my wall in a frame for years. I obtained it some time around 1980 or 81. Maharaji did not write it. He purloined it. the original did not speak in all capitalized words. I never took it as he himself speaking. I took it as him quoting or paraphrasing, taking someone else's words as a way to illustrate what the Creator would say if he could, to each of his creations. he's not insane. deluded maybe. grandiose, yeah. carried away with spoiled brat indulgence.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:14:59 (EST) From: Bryn Email: None To: PatC Subject: Aaaargh!! Take it away! nt Message:

dfg

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:58:13 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: Hocus Pocus Message:

Maybe this is on M's new site? [ get yours now ]

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:04:13 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Like Gerry's Brain Wave Generator Message:

When I first heard about this stuff I thought it was on a par with Reich's ''orgone box'' which helped put him in a state lunatic asylum for the rest of his life. But then I read this bit about classical music on your ''Mindsurfing'' site and figured there could be something to it. Classical music is always recommended over any other form of music due to the mathematical parallels with Brain Wave Synchronization. NOTE: Most biofeedback takes place in the Alpha range. Music: Medium beat Classical pieces played Moderato, Andante, or Andantino. Or try any Alpha sound file. Alpha Wave States are associated with: Self Appreciation Calming Rejuvenation Goal Development Lucid Mental States Optimism Pleasant Feelings & Emotions Positive Emotional State Reduced Worry Reduced Tension Reduced Stress While Working Refreshed State Relaxed While Awake Reduced Restlessness Reduced Distress Unfocused Attention Vivid Visual Images Waking Calmness Sounds a lot more practical than Maharajism :C) [ Gerry's Brain Wave Generator ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:25:18 (EST) From: Cynth Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: Hocus Pocus Message:

LOLOL! I gotta get off this board before I blow up laughing. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:02:20 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: M's new money making machine... Message:

Grows more every day with exciting new premie merchandise! [ http://www.nebraskascientific.com/featuredproduct/productspecial.asp ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:06:43 (EST) From: Hillary Swiggum Email: None To: Barry Subject: Cheers to forum 7 Message:

Keep up the good work! [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 19:32:59 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Hillary Swiggum Subject: Cheers to you too, Hillary :) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:33:53 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: That was funny as shit }) LOL Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:21:30 (EST) From: Cynthia to Barry Email: None To: Deborah Subject: All I wanted for Christmas... Message:

was a Disarticulated Painted Full Skeleton under my Christmas tree...or at least a Desk Size Vertebrae Column... Didn't get one. As Deborah said, funny as shiT()) ()) ())

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:47:14 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Why thank you!(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:30:25 (EST) From: Harry to Tonette Email: None To: All Subject: re: I am just now writing to you Message:

Tonette: This reply to you was about to fall off the bottom of the earth and you deserve a response so, here 'tis. Enjoy your weekend. Hi Tonette, Glad your birthday was jumpin'. This was a far more reasonable and relatable (to me, anyway) side of yourself you expressed in this post. A few quick responses from me and then I'm outta here. I hear what you're saying. People feeling neglected by Maharaji, real or imagined, is a great deal closer to the bone than most of the silly stuff discussed here and is far more understandable to me as a reason for someone to feel upset with him. Not ludicrous fantasies about an alcoholic bunny shooter, counting his gold. I've been through my share of intense feelings with him and it's a very personal area, whether one is, at any given time, 'for 'im or against 'im.' It's a powerful relationship, and even if you think he's a fraud, you wouldn't be talking about him with such vehemence in 2002 if there hadn't been something pretty off the map and noteworthy going on. Who would? A few answers to your Qs, since you asked them like a real person: 'I read on the net that she (Pia) died with dignity, peace and grace. If M helped her do that, I thank him. If Maharaji helped comfort her family by his actions, I give him my thanks. ' Thank you Tonette, for what must've been a teeth-gritting experience to give Maharaji even a small bit of credit for anything ;) Things aren't at all as black and white as they are painted and he isn't a monster, by any means. 'But Harry, I have never seen that kind of love and attention given to the very deserving premies I have known. ' I have, many times, and can't pretend that I haven't. 'Why were the premies you knew more deserving of a little bit of M's time and attention? Why?' I think it's very simple and has nothing to do with $, status and the other things you and others have mentioned. It's simply the people he knows and has physically, humanly interacted with over the years. And there are MANY in that group, not a few. Whether it's the people that were playing around with him on the roof in India 31 years ago or one of the dancers from Pasadena or the guy who sang Christmas carols to him every year 'til he died or the little, old lady from Mauritius he sees on every trip there. There's a great deal of continuity with the people who've chosen to hang with him and it's not based on anything shallow. ' Do you actually know the real guy, Maharaji. ' Yes. 'Have you met him, spent some time with him, talked or had a conversation with him?' Yes. Lots of times and many conversations. He's delightful, funny, inspiring company. He bears virtually no resemblance to the hideous, dim, debauched, abusive creature described on this page. He's not a mythical figure to me, either in a positive or negative light. 'I hope Harry that you will read this.' I did, and I thank you for expressing your feelings as a person to a person, not as typical Kult Karicature. That kind of knee-jerk, non-communication has made me feel like this 'forum' is a waste of time, frankly. No one enjoys being in a place where they’re stamped and judged before they say “boo.” 'And I know that your attachment to M is great. You have seen a side of him that is not often shared or witnessed by the 'rank and file.' How will you ever be able to see what is really happening with M? How will you be able to see the truth? ' You tell me, Tonette. Would you believe what YOU'VE seen, both up close and at a 'safe' distance, for many, many years, through every conceivable phase, fashion or fad, with consistency, quiet certainty, love and strength....OR, would you believe the re-written versions by a couple of ex-honchos whom you neither particularly cared about, admired nor trusted when they WERE, at least in their own minds, big-shots? Would I only “be able to see the truth” if I didn’t actually know him myself and blindly believed repeated gossip as the be-all and end-all of the story? I'll believe my own eyes and ears. I'm sure that I'm a voice in the wilderness here, but what I've seen doesn't match the consensus here...at all! I know that 'news items' take on great strength when they snowball by multiple repetitions. I don't care and I'll stay true to my own perceptions over consensus pressure 'til my OWN observations tell me otherwise. So should you. If they're 180 apart from mine, such is life. Be well, Harry

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:31:26 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Harry to Tonette Subject: The Personality of Cult... Message:

Harry, I know that you addressed your post to Tonette and I am quite sure she will answer, however; I have a few comments and observations. You said: I've been through my share of intense feelings with him and it's a very personal area, whether one is, at any given time, 'for 'im or against 'im.' It's a powerful relationship, and even if you think he's a fraud, you wouldn't be talking about him with such vehemence in 2002 if there hadn't been something pretty off the map and noteworthy going on. Who would? The flaw of your paragraph above is that if Maharaji were not a fraud, we wouldn't be here. The reason we're talking is because, we/I have acknowledged through experience that becoming part of a personality cult and exiting is difficult. We talk to eachother because we gain understanding and we exercise our brains. Do you remember when Maharaji would said in satsang (quite often) that when one receives knowledge, that a person's perspective is like that of someone upon the summit of Mount Everest. The perspective is clear--higher up. That's where ex-premies are. We're not on Mount Everest but we have snapped out of the fog of maharaji's influence and have therefore a perspective you cannot see. So what that you have spent time with him and he was nice. He's an actor. And just how close were you? In the Deca warehouse where so many other premies spoke to him, laughed with him, kissed his feet? Ever been in a small room when he's discussing some expensive toy and getting angry and nastry with folks because they didn't do it his way? Ever been around when he ridiculted (that still a typo, folks) premies to the point of absolute humiliation? There are many layers to the character Prem. Would he ever defer to you? If he said lets play tennis would you refuse? Would you leave his house because, you just got bored with him? No. I didn't think so. That is because you always must defer to him. He plays the role you expect and you get what you want: a god-in-a-bod. Wouldyou ever ask him something personal, like, can I see your collection of Cognac? How many chicks you laid lately? (I'm smiling 'cuz it's true.) Has he ever told you a secret that you can't tell? Did it make you feel special? The point, Harry, is why do you need him? Why do you need him in your life in order for you to feel whole? There are thousands of premies who have never come within 50 feet of him. Some of us have. So what? You can't believe that he isn't what you think because you are programmed and conditioned to defer only to him. You're wrong. He's not anything more than a polished act to those who've eaten his game whole, then have tasted his bitter nature and now spit it out, sometimes whole, sometimes pieces at a time. An actor is what he made himself into, with a lot of help from those premies who have never been within 50 feet of him, except in the darshan tunnel. You also said: You tell me, Tonette. Would you believe what YOU'VE seen, both up close and at a 'safe' distance, for many, many years, through every conceivable phase, fashion or fad, with consistency, quiet certainty, love and strength....OR, would you believe the re-written versions by a couple of ex-honchos whom you neither particularly cared about, admired nor trusted when they WERE, at least in their own minds, big-shots? Would I only “be able to see the truth” if I didn’t actually know him myself and blindly believed repeated gossip as the be-all and end-all of the story? Your comments ''both up close and at a safe distance'' are quite telling to me. I think what you've just said is that Maharaji is scary. I agree with that. True believers allow themselves to be afraid of Maharaji only because he has repeatedly, over years and years, hour upon hour of talking about his own power as Guru Maharaj Ji. 'Creator, Preservor, and Destroyer bow their heads and pray to You' Who, Harry? The real, walking on this earth Lord, Greater than God, Has Come More Powerful Than Ever Before, Never In Your Darkest Moment Ever Abandon You? You've got to say it or else all of your statements are very weak. You must say what you believe and not hide it just because he told you so. Be a good devotee. Can you dare say it in public? Or must you defer to his agya not to talk about your experience of him online, unless it's positive? Look, I've had positive experiences with him too. I was in the Design Room at Deca for Christ's sake. The fact that I adored and worshipped Maharaji as the Lord Incarnate does not negate the fact that what I worshipped was a fake. And ex-honchos, as you call them, have no reason whatsoever to come to a forum such as this and risk their names and reputations to lie about Maharaji. He damages people's lives by perpetuating his false identity. Frankly, I don't think maharaji even knows who he is himself. Especially, as I believe, he's knocking down cognac every day, and I know, I know, he's a pilot. So what? If he blows a clean reading on a breathelizer, saying he's sober, that means airplane piloting is very important to him. Well, DuH. Okay, I've said what I want to say. I don't know why you're hear or who you even are. But don't go trampling upon my friend Tonette. She is a wise and strong and kind woman. Careful, Harry, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:37:07 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Harry to Tonette Subject: Re: re: I am just now writing to you Message:

'Why were the premies you knew more deserving of a little bit of M's time and attention? Why?' I think it's very simple and has nothing to do with $, status and the other things you and others have mentioned. It's simply the people he knows and has physically, humanly interacted with over the years. And there are MANY in that group, not a few. Seems simple enough to me too. The guy can't deliver on the expectations that he himself stoked up in so many people over so many years. You say he isn't a monster,well,as you know him & I don't I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you can explain why he started out as Satguru greater than god & Lord of the Universe,became the perfect master & now is a teacher. Does he know himself? Do you? Sure the plantation owner can be gracious & kindly to his nearest & dearest,but what about the fucking slaves Harrydan. Shit,I'm morphing into a different persona. It's DANNY. You've got a signature to die for,but I won't tell anyone,let alone yourself,what it is. So keep up the good work & all the best.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:12:24 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: mollofmole@loveable.com To: Harry to Tonette Subject: Re: re: I am just now writing to you Message:

....OR, would you believe the re-written versions by a couple of ex-honchos whom you neither particularly cared about, admired nor trusted when they WERE, at least in their own minds, big-shots? --- Sorry Harry , I dont remember seeing anywhere you saying that you know Michael Dettmers or Michael Donner and have therefore the opportunity to question them directly about their observations and statements. If you had then you would not be able to make those sweeping generalizations. The fact that you discount their statements without enquiry makes you (with or without knowledge) a person of little intelligence or substance and therefore not worthy of real communication. To me it seems as if you are just trying to be a nice guy so perhap you should just go away. Moll lf Mole

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:21:10 (EST) From: Baiyan Email: None To: All Subject: What doesn`t Maharaji want? Message:

He doesn`t want Press coverage. I wonder if say 2 weeks before he holds any meeting any where in the world, this site address is given to the press. What would happen if a reporter followed up on some of the information in here? Food for thaught?

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:54:35 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: Baiyan Subject: Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want? Message:

An interesting idea Baiyan. The Big M doesnt like the press. As a control freak he is unsettled when things arenot going the way he wants them to. The Press can go to the Public Programs as the Press is part of the Public. Fortress M is the Big Ms self made world, but he isnt always in the Fortress as he likes the high life. The High Life may be his down fall. With Referance to the suposed money that is transported around the world from his appearances - It would be transported by either one of his close stooges or some one who doesnt have a criminal record, say a professional person of good standing in the community. Maybe immargration departments would like to see some of the posts from here. If one of these money carriers was caught it would be very interesting.........the money would be lost.....the press would have a field day......and if an association between the money (no tax payed) and the Big M could be established.........hey maybe the Big M wouldnot be allowed to visit that country and other countries would look more closely at him. Should this happen the Big Ms travel would be compremised. Wouldnt that be a pity!! Q

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:46:23 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Public Programs Message:

Maybe that's why the humanitarian speaker doesn't do public programs anymore.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:16:28 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Baiyan Subject: Heres something I want to give him! Message:

There ya go marshmallo boy! [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:52:09 (EST) From: Impressed fan Email: None To: Barry Subject: WOW! That's cool man [nt] Message:

Read your email, cartoon boy.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:30:37 (EST) From: Subedei Email: None To: Baiyan Subject: Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want? Message:

Baiyan,if the mongol theory is used it would be successful. The Mongols defeated their foes by not doing what was expected of them. Firstly they got to know how their foes worked and thaught,then they acted to unballance them. Capitalise on the weakness!!!!! Apart from all the lies, the organisation is loose and has many weaknesses in operation. Any one any Exes who know this Info? *BFCG*

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:33:52 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Baiyan Subject: Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want?? Message:

Supposedly, a reporter has to identify theirself as such, and present their press card. At least that's the spiel Terry Lingling gave, ad naseum, during service meetings, and more than likely still does. If not her, then someone else. They go on and on, about being on the look out for press people. They are phobic about it. Since it is a private venue, they can oust whoever they want. That's why they say 'The press is not invited.' It would take a stomach of steel to go through the aspirant process just to get in and write an article.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:07:41 (EST) From: Anandaji Email: None To: Vicki Subject: The press Message:

Why would the press even bother with trying to get in? You can just purchase the tape. Much of the real grist is already on EPO. The rest of the story would be trying to get an interview with the Hampster himself, who, naturally, would refuse to be interviewed, which is always a de facto confession. Truly, the truth, is EL's greatest weakness, since they spend so much time trying to conceal it. The Why is obvious.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:34:56 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Anandaji Subject: Not exactly true, Anandaji... Message:

While there is much to report on from viewing the video tapes, they are heavilty edited. Also, during events where old devotional music (including arti) is played (no words, just instrumentals, with exceptions), the audience plays a great part in witnessing the relationship between devotee and conman. Just my 2 pennies, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:26:12 (EST) From: silvia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: we have a lot Message:

We have darshan videos, 400 videos. Videos that where never for sale. Videos for participation where maharaji asks the premies to put %150 of their effort. In one of the videos in Amaroo he gets mad and make fools out of the premies, putting the blame on them for the organization's problems. We have sooooooooo much to show the press. Is just a matter of time before the shit hits the fun. Many ex-premies are working to give him a good hand.()) He may try different tricks to cover his tracks bringing changes to his organization and fool the premies, but EPO has in the archives step by step how he got here, today.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:45:25 (EST) From: Baiyan Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: What doesn`t Maharaji want? Message:

Doesn`t anyone know where maharaji`s homes thru out the world are? He has to go thru immigration doesnt he? He like the classy resterants doesnt he? If he is in a public place he is fair game. He doent have to answer any questions. But questions can be asked. He is ill at ease in a place where he doesnt have complete control. Think about it my friends!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:11:08 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Calling a spade a spade, Harry Message:

In a thread way down below, Harry answers Tonette's questions about M's 'real' personality like this: Tonette - 'Have you met him, spent some time with him, talked or had a conversation with him?' Harry - Yes. Lots of times and many conversations. He's delightful, funny, inspiring company. He bears virtually no resemblance to the hideous, dim, debauched, abusive creature described on this page. He's not a mythical figure to me, either in a positive or negative light. Tonette - 'I hope Harry that you will read this.' Harry - I did, and I thank you for expressing your feelings as a person to a person, not as typical Kult Karicature. That kind of knee-jerk, non-communication has made me feel like this 'forum' is a waste of time, frankly. No one enjoys being in a place where they’re stamped and judged before they say “boo.” Tonette - 'And I know that your attachment to M is great. You have seen a side of him that is not often shared or witnessed by the 'rank and file.' How will you ever be able to see what is really happening with M? How will you be able to see the truth? ' Harry - You tell me, Tonette. Would you believe what YOU'VE seen, both up close, repeatedly, and at a 'safe' distance, for many, many years, through every conceivable phase, fashion or fad, with consistency, quiet certainty and strength....OR, would you believe the re-written versions by a couple of ex-honchos whom you neither particularly cared about, admired nor trusted when they WERE, at least in their own minds, big-shots? Would I only “be able to see the truth” if I didn’t actually know him myself and blindly believed repeated gossip as the be-all and end-all of the story? I'm gonna believe my own eyes and ears. I'm sure that I'm a voice in the wilderness here, but what I've seen doesn't match the consensus here...at all! I know that 'news items' take on great strength when they snowball by multiple repetitions. I don't care and I'll stay true to my own perceptions over consensus pressure 'til my OWN observations tell me otherwise. Tonette - So should you. If they're 180 apart from mine, such is life. Be well, Harry Harry, I think it's safe to say that there are some situations in life which we consciously look for or enter into. Sometimes, however, what happens is that we drift into situations. In those cases we might never appreciate where exactly we've drifted unless we take good, honest stock of ... the situation. All of us share one common experience and that's that we were / are followers of Maharaji. We have Maharaji in common. In order to properly assess this situation, it's important to assess the man himself. It's not enough to just look to your own small anecdotal history with the guy, not if you're truly interested in assessing him and thus understanding your ... situation. Especially in a case like this, where the man you have to assess, the leader, stnads in such an extremely authoritarian and hierarchial position with respect to his followers. If you're going to assess him at all, you have to break away from his own controlled projected image and find some independent vantage point from whihc you can really take a look. Otherwise, no assessment, no understanding. You have juxtaposed your supposedly positive experiences of M with the negative reports of others like, for example, a 'couple of ex-honcho's' by whom, I'm sure, you mean people like Dettmers. You mention them by way of saying that you don't like them and aren't inclined to believe them. The problem, though, Harry is that, if you're really interested in the truth, if you really want to assess the man so you can understand your situation, you have to take it to the next step, you have to find out what the real, factual truth of the matter is / was. Otherwise, you're just hiding. And then, once you've determined a few facts for yourself, you have to really spell out for yourself -- in words -- the fair implication of those facts. For example, Dettmers claims that Maharaji used to ask him to procure premie girls for him. Okay, first, did it or did it not happen? Do you really want to know, Harry? Can you afford to know? Have you done anything to find out? If you're the PAM you seem to suggest you are, maybe you already know Mike. Would you like his email? His phone number? Maybe, even without naming names, Mike could, just between the two of you, confirm his story to your satsifaction. Or maybe he could turn you on to someone else who could. Or something. But Harry, question is, are you ready? Ready to know? And then, Harry, if you do resolve some of these factual issues you seem to find so up in the air, that's when the real hard part is. You already must know about yourself that after decades of following M, just like any other guru, perfect master or greatest incarnation of god to ever trod the planet, you're going to have a hard time adjusting your attitude towards M to accomodate your new understanding (you know, the understanding you're getting from taking this perspective and trying to fully assess the man outside of your small, subjective realtionship, as you see it). That would be hard in any situation but here? Where M himself says stuff like 'NEVER QUESTION THE PURITY OF THE MASTER!, here it's gonna be hard. And yes, you're going to have to use a completely honest, uneuphemized vocabulary. Otherwise, how can you do it? Answer is, you can't. No, you're going to have to ask yourself, for example, what do you call a person who sets himself up as the unquestionable paragon of truth and purity and then secretly trolls through his followers ranks for casual sex? His wife doesn't know -- or maybe she does! -- but that's what he does. What do you call that anyway? You're going to have to call a spade a spade, Harry. Can you do it? No? Not yet? Likewise, that story of M killing the bicyclist. Did it really happen? What are you going to do to find out? Do you care? Can you afford to know? If it's true, I mean, if you get to that point where you actually learn it is ... (can you think down the road like that?), what do you call a person like that? Brave? Honest? What? You know, even on your own terms, thinking of all the nice, warm experiences you've had with M, can you imagine how the'd have played out if you were anything but a fawnng sycophant before him? What if, just once, for example, you didn't laugh at one of his jokes when he looked at you the way people do after telling one? What if you didn't listen raptly to whatever he was talking about but interrupted him, changed the subject or something? Can you imagine that, Harry, changing the subject? How about just looking the other way, kind of ignorning him a bit? What would happen if you started doing that? Can you even imagine? See, Harry, the thing you have to do here, if you really want to understand your ... situation, is, you have to assess yourself here too. How are you acting? What do you call someone who acts that way? Honestly? What?

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 08:25:55 (EST) From: berni Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Calling a spade a spade, Harry Message:

It sounds like Harry is a personal friend of M and, as such, does not like hearing derogotory comments about him. I can understand that and last night I had a strange encounter with someone I have looked up to and regarded as a friend for many years which made me want to add something to this. Although I was never a friend to M, I remember my feelings towards him before becoming dissillusioned and discontinuing the practice of Knowledge. I occassionaly found him to be amusing, charismatic etc. Even in the very old days we heard rumours of boozy, pot parties and trips to night clubs which actually served to upgrade my feelings towards him rather than be outraged. I know this is wrong as he was preaching abstinence to Ashram premies but it somehow made sense that 'monks' would live a different life - in hindsight I know this was wrong. Whenever someone ( non-premie ) said that he was just a con-man in it for the money, I never got mad or emotional because having seen and heard him at many programmes I knew without a doubt that this was untrue and that the person making the comment was just ignorant of the true nature of M. So my views were the result of my personal experience and I would not let anyone else interfere with that. Yet Jim makes a good point when he says 'It's not enough to just look to your own small anecdotal history with the guy, not if you're truly interested in assessing him ' It's true that we like to keep the company of people who are charming, witty, good conversationalists, tell good stories, jokes etc. etc. Maybe that's why we love them as friends. Yet are these entertaining characteristics whilst in your prescence enough to be able to assess the true character of someone? I watched the t.v. prog about the meeting of the IIIrd Reichs leaders in 1942 to discuss the 'Jewish problem' and found it chilling. I have heard many times that these guys were charming, intelligent, witty and great company. Yet they were morally bankrupt. That is an extreme example and I know that there is no comparrisson with Maharji who is nothing but a peddler of mystic mumbo-jumbo and who I don't believe would consciously aim to cause suffering ( yet he does by convincing gullable folk to follow a way of life based on illusion ). However the point about not judging someone on their ability to charm is important. Once you find out that a charming friend has been doing the things that you would consider unethical do you continue your association and support? In my case, last night, I found out that a long time family friend is racist. It is so strange to even say this but from our conversation last night and subsequent tales from another friend, it seems to be true. I have known this person for 20 years and, although not a blood relative, is almost as close as some who are. To be honest this post is more a question to all out there as to what to do? If this person had said he was a drug addicted, bank robbing, secret transvestite I could have lived with it. But, despite how much I enjoy our converations and the laughter that we have shared, I don't know if I can ever feel the same way towards him again. The way that he classes all those of a particular skin colour or from a particular part of the world as money-grabbing scroungers who should be thrown out of the country and how he sees a whole class of people as beneath the status of human shocked me. In fact the more I think about it, the more I do not need to be told what to do. I am determined to avoid his company from now on and whenever we do meet I will do my best to challenge his views. I have long ago decided that the thing that matters to me in my relationship is ethics. If a friend acts in a way that goes against what I see as ethical then he/she becomes an ex-friend. But back to the point. If Harry or any other premie was to have definite evidence that M was behaving in an unsavoury way, would they continue to support him? Surely not. Of course this is leaving out the 'knowledge' mallarky. I guess if people believe in that then their attachment to the path towards infinite bliss will cause them to chose to ignore any evidence of bad behaviour on the bestower of the gift. In a way it is the 'knowledge' that should be exposed as without value more than the 'Perfect Master' Anyhow - great post Jim. cheers berni

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:16:09 (EST) From: Lesley Email: None To: Jim Subject: Charming is as charming does Message:

Hi Jim, I would like to add my two cents worth to this topic. Charming is as charming does is a good old fashioned saying. The purpose is to make a person pause and take a look at the actual results of how a person behaves regardless of how charming they are. I'm sure we all know someone very well, often a family member, and watch them with friends, acquaintances and strangers, see these people warm under the attention, realise that they think the person is really nice, based on their own personal experience, and you know better. You know a lot better, you have seen how they behave at home. I remember attending a session in Brisbane where Maharaji said he wished he could put all of us into partitioned booths, so that we would only pay attention to him and not eachother. It is a strong 'premie ethic', to 'only rely on your own experience'. I like the point you make very much about the need to listen to other people's experience as well in order to be able to make a more rounded assessment. As ex premies we have come out of a culture where Mr Rawat had his zits airbrushed out of photographs which we stuck on walls, if not altars, and a veil of secrecy around his personal life, and then a further veil of secrecy which we were a part of, in which we airbrushed zits, such as footkissing, from public view. So, what did you think, Harry, when Marsha Donner told us how Mr Rawat kicked her husband in the balls? Did you think something along the lines of 'oh Michael probably deserved it', or give yourself permission not to think about it with 'oh well, the Lord moves in mysterious ways'? I didn't. I was not there, I cannot comment in detail on the incident, nonetheless, other than in a serious hand to hand fight, all the men I know would consider Mr Rawat's action unconscionable. In my estimation it is not either or; Either Mr Rawat is really a super loving, super caring, super wise, super wonderful fun guy, Or he is an ugly monster of mythic proportions who only cares about money, lust, food, Peter Frampton, fast cars, the best plane, a good yacht and the chance to kick the odd devotee where it hurts the most. I'm sure Mr Rawat is a very complex character, with some genuinely nice impulses. For instance, I get the impression from listening to him talk on the stage, that he really didn't like the way his father hit his devotees with a stick, and the fear this engendered, and honestly wanted to be a kinder gentler more easygoing, fun loving Master than his father was. All of this has now become somewhat academic to me, I have reached some conclusions, based on as much information as I have, and I have revised the importance I placed on him in relationship to me. All the best, Lesley

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:20:37 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey! Thanks for the 'Hello' on my thread man? Message:

Hmmmmmm?

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:23:50 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Barry Subject: Ya Bum! Message:

FRaaaaaaaaapppap!!! [ http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:NSheibDlt3IC:www.townwebs.syol.com/towns/bingley/bums.jpg ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:21:13 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Barry Subject: Here's some more bum art Message:

And to think this poster only costs $125 -- US! [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 21:11:47 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Aaagh bless, he's trying so hard Message:

Fine art prints, ambient house producer, new age muzak, poet, pilot, industrial designer, web designer he's trying so hard isn't he, I think he needs all the encouragement we can give him. It must be very hard being so desperate to want to be seen as cool with so little talent. Having said that I think this sub-Gergia O'Keefe print is his best yet, he could still scrape a small living with his new age kitsch artefacts for sentimental housewifes.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 22:16:24 (EST) From: Georgia O'Keeffe Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Who woke me up? Where am I? What is this crap? Message:

You woke me up from my nice long nap to see this crap flower art? This is NOT 'art'...this is 'aren't.'

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:37:15 (EST) From: Gina Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Bum' art...Is it me or does the center of... Message:

...that flower look just like a 'bloomin' asshole?' And what is the symbolism here? Anybody? Gina, the art critic who sees WAY too much meaning in flowers

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:52:42 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: The price really bummed me out! Message:

Haaaarrrrr!!!!!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:25:13 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Read the blurb -- it's hilarious Message:

Created from a one of a kind, original work of art, this reproduction conveys an expression of simple beuty. Through most gracious gifting by the artist, the opportunity is here for the first time in ten years to own this exquisite limited print. We invite you to take full advantage of this generous offer. The dimensions are 20x35. [ Silent Dream Poster ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:03:06 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: Jim Subject: art therapy for the goo? (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:54:56 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Read the blurb -- it's hilarious Message:

ya I'll take full advantage alright! Full advantage at calling the art total crappola!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:48:28 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Read the blurb -- it's hilarious...Jim Message:

Hi Jim, $125US and it isn't framed? Btw, thanks for responding to Harry. You said it in your own inimitiable way, and expressed my thoughts exactly. ''beuty?'' For a hundred and twenty five US, you'd think they'd use spell check! Love, Cynth

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:55:59 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: LOL LOL LOL!!! Message:

Spell check! That cracked me up!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:52:44 (EST) From: gale beckwith Email: None To: All Subject: islam vs christianity Message:

'Nevertheless the power of Islam, like its symbol, the moon, is disappearing before the sun of Christianity which is rising once more over the Eastern horizon. Nearly one-third of its followers are under Christian (mostly English) rule. It is essentially a politico-religious system, and Turkey is its stronghold. The Sultan has long been a 'sick man,' and owes his life to the forbearance and jealousy of the Christian powers. Sooner or later he will be driven out of Europe, to Brusa or Mecca. The colossal empire of Russia is the hereditary enemy of Turkey, and would have destroyed her in the wars of 1854 and 1877, if Catholic France and Protestant England had not come to her aid. In the meantime the silent influences of European civilization and Christian missions are undermining the foundations of Turkey, and preparing the way for a religious, moral and social regeneration and transformation of the East." from Schaff, Philip, History of the Christian Church, 1910. http://www.etf.cuni.cz/mirrors/ccel/ccel/s/schaff/history/

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 04:10:20 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: gale beckwith Subject: Sat Chit-Chatroom Message:

'Nevertheless the power of Islam, like its symbol, the moon, is disappearing before the sun of Christianity which is rising once more over the Eastern horizon. Nearly one-third of its followers are under Christian (mostly English) rule. It is essentially a politico-religious system, and Turkey is its stronghold. The Sultan has long been a 'sick man,' and owes his life to the forbearance and jealousy of the Christian powers. Sooner or later he will be driven out of Europe, to Brusa or Mecca. The colossal empire of Russia is the hereditary enemy of Turkey, and would have destroyed her in the wars of 1854 and 1877, if Catholic France and Protestant England had not come to her aid. In the meantime the silent influences of European civilization and Christian missions are undermining the foundations of Turkey, and preparing the way for a religious, moral and social regeneration and transformation of the East." from Schaff, Philip, History of the Christian Church, 1910. http://www.etf.cuni.cz/mirrors/ccel/ccel/s/schaff/history/ --- The words date from the last years of the centuries old Ottoman Empire which allied with Germany in WW1 and was dismembered thereafter. A few years later the Imperial State itself was reformed into modern Turkey. If you are interested in getting comments on that topic, you'd do much better to post in the Sat Chit-chatroom. Lots of exes hang out there and discuss whatever.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:01:22 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gale beckwith Subject: Gail Beckwith... Message:

Do I know you? Your name sounds very familiar. Are you a premie, or an ex? Were you ever in Hartford, Conn.?

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 18:51:34 (EST) From: Gale Beckwith Email: gale@myrealbox.com To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Gail Beckwith... Message:

No, I've lived (as a premie) in Annapolis and Washington, D.C. Tonette and I are married.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 20:45:10 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Gale Beckwith Subject: Well, how about that... Message:

Hi Gail, Glad to meet you. For some reason your name sounded familiar. Pull up a seat and enjoy! Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:26:59 (EST) From: Eddie Haskell Email: None To: gale beckwith Subject: Good Evening, Mr. Cleaver Message:

just thought I should let you know I saw your post

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:59:23 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: I've been away, but I'm back! Message:

Prepare for my foolishness, and crazy nonsence. Thanks. Good to be home.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:59:35 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Barry Subject: hello barry.. Message:

any chance that you might restrict your postings to discussion of the exiting process - or else perhaps try using Anything Goes - its just that you post a lot of 'humor' and sometimes it just fills up space and moves threads too quickly.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:55:08 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Barry Subject: Welcome back Barry... Message:

I need your humor to keep my out of my winter, cabin fever doldrums!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:57:04 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: good to be back Cynth! Message:

nnnnn

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:31:12 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: suesadoula@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Very prophetic Message:

I received the k in my freshman year of college. When I was a senior in high school, my well respected (and very left leaning) English teacher passed around a copy of the Sunday New York Times Magazine section with a long (as all NYT magazine section articles are) article on M and Millenium. I can't remember whether the article appeared before or after Millenium -- anyone else read it? What I do remember is my teacher (who had a habit of getting our attention or simply making a point by walking across our desks) ranting and raving about what a quack and a loser M was. The tie in was that we were about to read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land I often wondered if my teacher was responding simply to what he was hearing of M in the press or if he was losing someone near and dear to him to M's influence and cult beliefs and wanted to keep us from the same fate. I also remember when I was told of M by my friend who had been in that same class, I asked 'Isn't this the same person Mr. J was warning us about?' 'Yes,' was the response 'but he just doesn't understand what M is really offering.' Unfortunately, he did. Mr. J, I wished I had listened. Best to all, Susan

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 17:26:54 (EST) From: Gina Email: all-yall@mindspring.com To: Suedoula Subject: We were SO young & innocent Message:

And so vulnerable...there were probably warnings for us everywhere, but since we had no idea there was any danger, we didn't recognize the warnings. It's not our fault we fell in...we were pulled in, just like with undertow in the ocean. (which one of my children used to call 'the Undertoad') Hmmmm...GMJ...The Undertoad in the Bottom of The Ocean of Bliss (And Susan, I replied to you again in our OT chat way below...just wanted you to know before it gets pulled under by the undertoad at the bottom of the page of posts.)

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 05:53:19 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Gina Subject: hey-did charnamrit Message:

make us 'water brothers'??? hmmmm

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:40:44 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: I grok what you're saying... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 10:03:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: Twenty Six Years Ago Today... Message:

January 26, 1976 was the day I got the knowledge. Padarthanand was the judge and jury and he picked me, along with ten or twelve others. Oh the bliss. The ashram premies treated him like a lesser god. He acted like a greater god. Waited on hand and foot, everyone obeyed his every whim and fancy. I was a Hartford, Conn. aspirant, but we had no ashrams there at the time so all knowledge selections were held in the New Haven ashram. I wanted knowledge and I wanted it bad. So, of course I took off three days from work to attend the grueling selection meetings and finally, the Knowledge Session itself. One thing I always wondered about was this: How could Maharaji zap that grace through a mahatma to give me the Knowledge of all Knowledges? Just how did he do that? Hmmmmm. I now know it was all a con-job and a fake. There was no grace or magic. Now I am free of the cult, free of Maharaji. I want to thank everyone here who has made EPO and Forum Four, Five, Six, and Seven possible. My entry into this process of posting on such a controversial and unprecedented forum was rocky and difficult to say the least. Yet I made it through, I've learned so much from all of you. If I mention names I know I'll miss someone. Again, many, many thanks for being here for me and for all of us. FREEDOM! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:18:23 (EST) From: Anandaji Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Happy Free Day! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:51:55 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Happy un-birthday Message:

Cynthia, What a long strange trip it's been, eh? It was a sometimes fun dream but now I feel like the king that was dreaming he was a butterfly. Fun to turn those old stories around and laugh from the other side. There were maybe 100 selected in my K session out of 200 that showed up. I wonder if any are still among the enchanted. Perhaps 2 or 3 tops. With apologies to Pete Seeger and folkies everywhere: Where have all the followers gone, long time passing? Where have all the followers gone, Long time ago? Where have all the followers gone? Gone to the real world everyone. Oh, good we finally learned. Oh, good we finally learned. Richard

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:42:22 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: a question, Cynthia Message:

Hi Cynthia, Mazel Tov on looking at your knowledge session from outside the cult. I left k and m and what was then known as DLM in 1976 after 5 years inside, when the goo himself was making all his claims to divinity. It's only after discovering epo and the forum last year that I realized how much worse things have gotten in the 26 years since my departure. And also, realizing that I was harboring rotten feelings about the exploitation and abuse we all received back in the good ole days. EPO and F7 are fabulously validating, hilarious and I love all the online personalities. You guys feel like old friends to me. I know this has probably been told before, but Marianne suggested that I ask you about Decca. I left before it came about. What was it? If you don't want to repeat previous posts, direct me to the appropriate archive or place on epo. For Propertius, Cynthia was his docta puella--his learned girlfriend. Great poet, great name.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:21:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: housemum Subject: Re: a question, Cynthia Message:

Hi Housemum, So you got out as I went in...1976--I was an aspirant for five months. DECA;s a subject which many folks have posted about over the past years since the forum came online. I would be pleased to give you a recap, but, first I do want to look at the archives to save time. I could write a book. Basically, it was a top secret project that took place in Miami (Hialeah, actually). It was goomraji's big brainstorm to send applications to every premie in order to make an assessment of skills, professional capabilities and the like. The project was to acquire and reconfigure a Boeing 707 jet so that he would no longer have to ride in commercial aircraft or leased private aircraft. To say the least it was a disastrous project. He was referred to only as the client. Because I was among the first wave of ashram premies (although some married premies were also there) I was sent from Harford in May of 1979 to Miami Beach, I started out in a small warehouse, and once the aircraft was acquired, we moved into a 100,000 foot complex. More on that later. Rather than get into sketchy details here, I'll do some searching around the archives (I hope they're available at the moment), because I think it's an important phase of goomraji's heavy devotional period, and his use of us as slave laborers. It was also a time of excruciating pressure on community and ashram premies to donate A LOT of $$$. Thanks for your good wishes. I have been enjoying your posts here. I like my name, too. Until I met my husband I was known as Cindy, and he loved 'Cynthia' so since then (20 years ago) it's stuck. I'll get back to you on Deca. It was wild!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:12:00 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Twenty Six Years Ago Today... Message:

Happy Freedom Day, Cynthia! I received K a few months after you in May of 1976. Funny tho, for me the date that I celebrated as my 'K' birthday is now a bit fuzzy and as I write this I can't really remember if it was May 5, 1976 or May 6, 1975. Once that was important to me and now it is not -- but I still think about it every early May (and rejoice in my Freedom as do you.) I was living in Buffalo, NY at the time but there were no Mahatmas around so 2 friends and I traveled up to Toronto to ask Prakash Bai for the K. I have such weird memories of the trip. It was still awfully cold and damp in Toronto even tho it was May. We were not dressed for the weather and had no idea where we would stay, very little money and no clue as to how we would get food to eat. We relied heavily on the kindness of the community and stayed in someone's apartment, all of us sleeping on the floor. I remember dinner at his house -- he made us johnny cakes (pan-fried corn bread) and butter and tea. I think that was all we ate that day -- no breakfast before the k session the next morning and only what the Ashram offered us for a snack and then birthday cake afterwards. When we took the bus back to Buffalo to our college dorm rooms the after the K session, we were tired, cold and hungry. But as you said, oh the bliss. Isn't it amazing -- with all that 'bliss' we were still tired, hungry and cold. And willing to accept that we could make it on the bliss alone. I'll bet the goo was never tired, hungry or cold in his life. EVER. Rejoice today, Cynthia. And I will rejoice in our freedom with you. Best, Susan PS -- did you know an ashram premie named Mike Denny? He was originally from Phoenix and was transferred to Hartford after living in Buffalo in the mid 70s. Just curious.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:33:46 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: Re: Mike D... Message:

Hi Suedoula, No, I don't recall him. He was probably transferred after I was sent south to Miami. Thanks for your good wishes, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:07:16 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Twenty Six Years Ago Today... Message:

With MLK's permission (I'm sure)...let's shout it from the rooftops: .....F.R.E.E...A.T...L.A.S.T.!.!.!...F.R.E.E...A.T...L.A.S.T.!.!.! ................. All.of.Goo's...E.X.E.S...A.R.E .....................F.R.E.E...A.T...L.A.S.T.!.!.! Amen to that!

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:27:32 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Thanks, Steve... Message:

It does feel like real freedom, doesn't it? FREEDOM OF LIFE AND THOUGHT! I got your email...will resond soon. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:24:45 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: byebye Message:

I don’t know what to call this thread. Was going to call it where am I? But that would have sounded as if I’ve turned into a moron again by questioning my convictions. Well I haven’t posted anything of value for sometime now, and I really don’t think that I will in the future. As a premie I was in some backwash community where nothing much happened. Even then I rejected Divine Light/EV and thus I was not or did not care very much as to what was going on. I left the cult over 20 years ago and I really haven’t got much to add on the line of gossip. When I try to take stock of what it is that made me finally leave the cult I find myself in conflicting waters. Though I rejected the guru for so long I did not really cut my ties with him completely only in the middle of 1999 that is when I got really sick. The final confirmation happened when I stumbled across EPO and F5. Though I have a different view of what F7 is now, I still maintain that the forum is a very powerful toll for those that are looking to exit or have exited the cult. True, F7 does not give emotional support, but I don’t think that’s it purpose. I always saw F7 as a place to express my feeling regarding the cult and also as a mean to expose the gurus’ false charade. Since the first CAC incident and subsequent ones, I have had to deal with a lot of unwanted emotional stress that was imposed upon me by Guru Maharaj Ji and his cohorts. I had to learn how to deal with this new and latest “mind attack” and grow over it. I know that many exes had similar problems. As I said I had to really grow. I wasn’t going to let some bigot to impose his will on me again. Now that I can look back I can say with conviction that I am truly free of my “attachments” to the guru. I have nothing to share with him or with the subject matter of this forum as I find it irrelevant to indulge into a discussion that is meaningless to me anymore. But that doesn’t mean that for all those lurkers and new people that come across not to get involved. The truth of the matter that to many premies, the guru has anethtesised [spelling] that part that beats with real life and have replaced it instead with his selfish plans to reap what doesn’t belong to him. My beef has nothing to do with premies, they are the meat in the grinder. Instead my beef has always been and will be with the head of the snake itself, Guru Maharaji Ji. As far as I see it, he has lied to me, used me and have acted with total knowledge that what he was doing was a total obstruction of the real truth which he chose to hide but persist in acting upon it. Guru Mahraji Ji as far as I see him has no power of any sort [except maybe of an evil mind], he is lord of the turds and his presence is nothing but meaningless. He is a total ignorant, and most likely was driven for most of his life on a false conviction that was programmed into him by a lying father. I don’t care one once for him or his New Age Hinduism. The only time that I may bother is if someone reports him for embezzling his followers, otherwise he can go and drown in his shit. Well as I said, my station on this train has arrived. I don’t think I will, can or want to contribute to the forum. But to all those that are here, keep up the fight until one day the bastard gives up completely. And I truly hope that the issue of Jagdeo will hunt him down wherever he goes. Love to you all and god bless. If you need a good lesson into politics you know where to find me. [P.s. Sat or AG forum]. {Hey how about that, not a typo, shessh]

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:40:10 (EST) From: silvia Email: None To: Salam Subject: bye Message:

u'll b back... Good luck,LOVE. my new e-mail address: silvia_sommer@yahoo.com

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:28:25 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Salam Subject: Excellent post, Salam Message:

It sounds like you've 'graduated,' and are 'moving on.' Actually, that's ideal. See you on the other channels...

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:51:32 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Excellent post, Salam Message:

Salam, Precisely as gerry said, your post sounds like a graduation speech and I applaude you. The other night a long-time friend, who used to be a premie, stayed with us. Since I knew she had exited years back, I brought up EPO. Her take was interesting in that, even though she was well and truly done with M & K, she thought EPO was a bunch of kids who couldn't let go. That's typical for current pwks but she's definitely post-pwk. Taking the conversation further, I discovered that she'd only peeked in on Forum I or II so she didn't have any idea what had evolved. So her view was the same as I had on my first look at the forum. Because I hung around, I was able to take advantage of the new voices that arrive almost daily now. The other part which rang true, was that she's done a lot of personal growth work and, listening to her, I got that she indeed has put M & K behind her. No resentment, anger or revisionism at all. The gist of what she said and what you've just said are quite similar. Perhaps we can set up a repository for old M photo frames that can be used for graduation certificates as Ex's receive their diplomas from EPO. Salam, I have enjoyed your efforts and unique style here over time. Please drop by to chat with those of us still in EPO grad school. Cheers, Richard

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 08:48:37 (EST) From: Quiet Email: qgung@yahoo.com To: All Subject: The Rawalt Family Message:

Can anyone tell me about the ex lord of the universes family? I ve heard him refer to his sister ot 1/2 sister. Did shri hans have more than one wife? If so where are they and why arnt theyn mentioned along with the other gargoil/vampires ( correct my spealing please janett)?

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 06:08:48 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Quiet Subject: you really want me to???? Message:

na, i can read it. yeah, shri hans had a first wife whom he 'set aside' and married rajeswari devi [mata ji][ mahatma rajeswar was her brother, i think] and she gave him 4 sons. i think shri hans's first wife gave him a daughter, hence the hallf sister. they lived at the indian ashram or residence in the background as a kind of shadow part of the holy family.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 09:52:54 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: you really want me to???? Message:

Mahatma Rajeshwar was Maharaji's uncle???? I never knew that.

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 07:38:27 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: you really want me to???? Message:

Thank you Janet. Being the shaddowy side of the 'HOLY FAMILY' would be prefered to the side anyway. You seen any of the pics of the Big Ms 2 eldest Bros..........yegods what a bunch of gargoils! Intelegent lookinh tooo. NOT!!! Q

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:21:12 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Re: The Rawalt Family Message:

Yes, Shri Hans had a wife before he married MataJi, by whom he had one daughter - Maharaji's half-sister. When I was in India in 1970 I met both the wife and daughter, and spoke to them for a while. I am not sure why they are never mentioned. Even then, they were not part of the holy family. They were respected as Shri Hans's wife and daughter, but that was about all. They both seemed quiet and gentle people, and quite happy with their lot - in other words, they did not give me the impression they wanted to be promoted into the holy family. -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:56:17 (EST) From: Quiet Email: qgung@yahoo.com To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: The Rawalt Family Message:

Thanks for the info Mike. Much appreciated.Q

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 08:32:06 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: All Subject: 'Dying while Living' Message:

Reading the ex-satsanghi links posted below in the thread started by connetthedots, I came across this fantastic quote: '(we are) confronting the 'dying while living' abomination of the deadening philosophy.' When i left in 1984, one of the biggest pieces of deprogramming was exactly this, for me. I realized how absurd it had been to base my life on the rejection of life. Why reject life? Because it is impermanent and unreal and 'death is like a butcheress, hovering over your head' (remember Mata Ji singing this song: Hapne Hastey Yo tere...?). What crap! The thing is, even after i rejected the philosophical underpinnings of MJ's Radhasoami cult, many emotional and mental habits remained. After all, this was my life for 12 years! To some extent these cultic, self-denial habits of feeling and thinking reinforced certain tendencies I brought in from my family of origin (even though they were atheists!). But once I dismantled the basic belief system, it was (and still is) important for me to positively affirm the value of being alive AND having personal desires etc. just for the pleasure of it. I still notice certain default habits that pop up when I am tired and stressed that are absolutely 'premie' habits. Like 'pushing through' my body's protests, to do things I think I 'should', and a certain subclinical, subconscious, subeverything background of shame for being myself that was the norm in MJ's world, though mostly concealed by being blissed out (OUT is the word!). Anyone want to comment?

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:25:12 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Disculta Subject: And another thing . . . Message:

Another thing that occurred to me -- I have a very unhealthy relationship with money. During those early years when I should have been figuring out what I wanted to be when I grew up, getting a real job and learning what it is like to take care of myself, I was out there working menial jobs for the goo, handing over my paycheck and then made to feel guilty enough so that I had to ask my parents to pay for things like dentist visits and the clothing I needed. Not only was I dependant on the ashram for my physical needs like food and shelter, I had to remain dependant on my parents for many of the basic necessities of life cause I didn't want to have to ask the 'shrami in charge for money for my worthless self. Nowadays, I can't balance my check book to save my life and still feel guilty when I need to buy myself the basics like clothing and rarely 'splurge' on those special things like jewelry or make-up. Sad, ain't it? Best, Susan

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 14:04:05 (EST) From: Barbara Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Living while dying Message:

Great post, Disculta. I think this is the reason why so many exes became sick upon exiting. I became deathly ill and came pretty damn close to dying; a bit of the form follows thought routine. Having the mind relentlessly deny life eventually has to have its manifestations in the body. And to remember I thought I was sick because it was form of 'rotting vegetables,' instead of realizing that it was a result of remaining in the cult and not leaving it is quite ironic. B +)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 13:09:45 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: 'Dying while Living' Message:

I remember one of guru greater than god comments (I repeated it in all my satsangs for years--apologies in retrospect) The satguru said (and I paraphrase, I'm sure it's in print) 'Life is like lying under a car that's being held up by a cracked jack. It's going to fall soon, you just don't know when.' That kind of optimism created such a sense of well-being.

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 12:04:38 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: 'Dying while Living' Message:

Well said, KD. I agree completely re:old premie habits. In the last few months, I've been in therapy to help uncover, accept and heal old wounds suddenly brought forth by PTSD on 9.11. One of the remarkable realizations for me has been how much I'd turned from the 'pain of the world' or 'ocean deep' or 'mind' or Maya. Yes, I found solace in meditation and in believing I was serving humanity via the Perfect Master. A sweet dream but now I see that what I was turning away from was a wounded part of myself. I was cutting off the branch I was sitting on. It's quite amazing to rediscover and embrace the 4.5 year old golden child that was struck with polio. I'm certain that I rejected that imperfect and wounded part of myself and embraced the perfect child guru. Obvious now but it took an event as soul shattering as 9.11 and subsequent therapy to see how I'd rejected myself and projected 'perfectness' on GMJ. Of course, it goes without saying, we were strongly encouraged to see GMJ as Shinola and everything else as shit. How wonderful to walk through this world and be in awe of the amazing things I see and feel without calling it Grace or Lila. Richard

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:20:42 (EST) From: Quiet Email: qgung@yahoo.com To: Disculta Subject: Re: 'Dying while Living' Message:

er Disculta ......was it at this time (1984) that you learnt to capitalise? (sorry im still larfing at some of the houmouress replies ive found to my questions) Q

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:43:23 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Quiet Subject: To Quiet Message:

My Message about capitalizing was addressed to Janet, in response to what she said to you. Oh well. ;––)

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:49:22 (EST) From: Quiet Email: qgung@yahoo.com To: Disculta Subject: Re: To Quiet Message:

sorry.new here Q

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:38:27 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Hi Quiet... Message:

Welcome to the forum, Quiet. Although this is a written medium you sure have a lot to say. I hope to hear more. Don't worry about spelling or caps. But I'll give you a hint: the better you spell and the shorter your paragraphs, the more you'll be read. I had to laugh about the spelling thread, too. Janet--you of all people--long paragraphs! Have to love you though, Janet. And Quiet, feel free to speak loud and clear here. Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 11:56:56 (EST) From: Quiet Email: qgung@yahoo.com To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Hi Quiet... Message:

Thanks Cynthia. Well about my spelling, its terrible i confess without spell checker im in big trouble. Shorter parragraphs........wellll im studdying law.....ya gotta be long winded.I have been asking singular questions as i wish to cover so many questrions that i have. Can you imagine how long my post would be if i asked them all at once? hehehehe oh god what a thaught. Q

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 16:52:24 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Re: Hi Quiet... Message:

Quiet, If you're studying law you certainly will need spellcheck on whatever systems you use. No offense was intended at all. I worked for quite a few years with lawyers and have a nephew who recently began practicing in Connecticut. Hard work, isn't it? Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 01:59:48 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Hi Quiet... Message:

No offense taken. The fact is im lost with out the spell checker. The work is hard. Pity we couldnot get a team together on the internet to discuss the Big M prob. Im sure from my own experiances and what i have seen he is breaking the laws of many countries. It would be nice to see him baught to justice. Q

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:49:37 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: 'Dying while Living' Message:

Katie, Old habits and beliefs do die hard. After about 11 years in the cult (the last was a slow exit away from being involved actively) and 15 years of living my life as I 'pleased' I still have a hard time placing my own wants and needs before those of others. Your post made me stop and wonder how much of how I live my life now is a vestige of those old ashram habits of constantly serving others (because thru serving others, I was serving M) and never giving thought to my own wants or needs. I find it hard to accept the kindness of others. I am uncomfortable at offerings of help and support because it takes me out of my own subservient role of constant giver and forces me to receive -- something that as an Ashram resident – even as an Ashram aspirant, I was rarely allowed to do. Except of course, for that Grace that one was supposed to experience from serving. I don't think I can express to you how profound this understanding is to me on this lazy Saturday morning. If you had not posted your thoughts on this, I may have never made the connection. Thanks for that. Can one short paragraph truly cause such life changing realizations? I had been under the impression that I came out of my experience of the cult relatively unscathed. I am even one of those who left without resentment towards M. It wasn’t until I spent time on the forum and reading the EPO site, that I could let myself feel anger and resentment towards M and those closest to him for having been duped into a life that would lead me nowhere fast. But even with acknowledging that there was a reason for resentment and anger, I still felt I got out without major scarring. Your post this morning made me realize that is not the case. And it comes in a most timely fashion, as I have been wondering about why I manage to put the needs of others above my own so willingly. You have helped me to stumble upon a very large piece of that puzzle. So, having had only one cup of coffee, I will head for my second and maybe even a hot shower (hey, I’m a mom with young kids – a shower a day can be a luxury still!) Perhaps the laundry won’t get finished today and maybe I’ll even make time for something I WANT to do instead. Best to all, Susan

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 09:41:12 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: 'Dying while Living' Message:

Dear Disculta, I totally relate to this. In fact, for years during my 'drifting but still believing' phase - 1989 till now, I've often tried to bring this up with premies when they asked me why I wasn't going to meetings any more. I tried to talk about Maharaji's total lack of respect for anything like higher education or any sort of culture or artistic or any other accomplishment. His lack of interest which in my heart of hearts I felt to be dismissal, worried me for years and put me in an odd state, where I followed my desires but still felt subtly guilty about them, even if the desires were to create and accomplish. I felt that in Maharaji's world these things would be dismissed, so my way of dealing with it was to keep out of M's world. But the faith and belief remained, putting me in a place that was weirdly at odds with myself. How can you be a fully integrated person and feel like THAT? And why in M's view is nothing real, worthwhile and spiritual to be found outside his world? Post about 1984 when I began to do interesting work rather than rubbish work to subsist, donate and get to festivals, nothing he was saying seemed to make that much sense any more. I began mixing with people without knowledge and found that, hey! they could have happy fulfilled meaningful lives too. I began to find the company of premies weird and remember telling one premie friend to SHUT UP!!! when he started lecturing me in typical robotic glazed-eyed fashion. ('That love, that peace,.....urrrrgh!!!!) I tried talking about these dichotomies with quite a few premies but couldn't find anyone who really agreed with me except those who were completely out. And at that time I didn't want to be completely out, I wanted some evidence that M valued SOMETHING outside his world, so that I could somehow stay in without feeling at odds with something. But the evidence was never there. And now, looking at the Atlanta training video, seeing that M's favourite sort of premie is someone who knows the videos word for word to such an extent that they can pick out the appropriate video for any interested person.......to call that a LIFE!!! A life of blotting out the world, working purely for money and spending any spare time watching video after video of M until you know every single one by heart,......GOD!!!!! If you can live like that and not become utterly brain dead without an original thought in your head, well you deserve a medal!!! And to think we thought the outside world were zombies. Yes, Disculta, I know what you mean. And I don't know if I'll ever completely shake it off, this slightly numb feeling which comes from 30 years of experiencing the world at one remove. I want my intense feelings back, I really do. With love, Livia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 10:47:20 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Livia Subject: This is an important thread... Message:

Dear Disculta, Suedoula and Livia, First, thanks Katie for bringing this subject up. Second, I loved all of your posts. I also had a 'drifting but still believing' phase. It lasted 16 years. Prior to that I was so intensely involved in the cult that I acquired so many incorrect beliefs about myself and the world around me (not m's world). Those remnants still pop up from time to time to haunt me. For instance, when I'm reading a book or a poem, listening to music and hear lyrics, see a movie--a thought will run through my head ''that's not what m would think or say or tell me about this.'' Some of the things I was taught to disbelief and reject while devoted to maharaji remains even though I have rejected him outright. Not everything I was programmed to believe is at the surface, but certain stuff embedded in my mind and brain still persists from time to time, frustrating me. I want it to be gone completely. I wonder if all that crap will ever totally be gone. Personally, I think our lives were changed forever by involvement with that cult yet every day, when the 'program' surfaces, I try to reframe it, redefine it, and go about my life as I want it to be. Thanks again, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 15:27:27 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: This is an important thread... Message:

Cynthia, 'reframe it, redefine it, and go about my life as I want it to be.' Inspiring words. Thanks! Best, Susan

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