Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 28, 2002 To: Feb 01, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


housemum -:- women according to M, '72, for Marianne -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:11:36 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Standard Hindu Boilerplate -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:55:15 (EST)
__ Jean-Michell -:- Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:33 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- Re: Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:26:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:35:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:40:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- As you like -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:57 (EST)
__ Joe -:- This should go on EPO -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:06:35 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- I'm ill from my discoveries -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: I'm ill from my discoveries -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- Thanks. Very helpful reassurance (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:20:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- EPO's quote section's here -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:39:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- J-M Get the Whole Book!! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:32:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also, J-M -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Also, J-M -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:06:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Also, J-M -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:41:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: banned videos -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:40:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Viewing the banned movies -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:09:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Joe, about videos -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:32:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bless you Richard -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:58:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- These are rare films, Joe... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:38:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- 'the vine of love'? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:34:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: These are rare films, Joe... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:16:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ OTS -:- 'I Must Have That Man' -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:01:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: 'I Must Have That Man' -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 17:32:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Ten Ton Tiny Takes Knowledge -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:22:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Housemum does.... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:44:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Housemum's fear and loathing -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Housemum's fear and loathing -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:31:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Housemum's fear and loathing -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:41:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I think I know what you mean ... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:24:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh yes..... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:23:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Oh yes..... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:27:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The thing is..... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:35:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is valuable stuff -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- J-M.... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:22:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I think I own the book -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:29:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- JM, pg numbers -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:42:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: JM, pg numbers -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:19:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: This is valuable stuff -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:34:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 01:27:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:16:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:06:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- I understand your fear -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:55:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- absolute ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:13:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Babs -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 02:40:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Beautiful post, Babs (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:29:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:15:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Livia...When you are ready....-) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:30:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:49:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- List the threats, and don't be scared -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:27:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: List the threats, and don't be scared -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:24:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: List the threats, and don't be scared -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:32:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cyntahia -:- Housemum...It's okay to have your feelings... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:07:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chris (not cq) -:- What is PROCESSING exactly -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:13:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: What is PROCESSING exactly -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:24:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chris -:- Re: What is PROCESSING exactly -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:41:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: What is PROCESSING exactly -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:12:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chris -:- Thanks Cynthia (to all your helpful posts) (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:35:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Is this Chris Dickie?nt -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:59:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chris (alias) -:- Re: Is this Chris Dickie?nt -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:20:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Housemum...It's okay to have your feelings... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:17:26 (EST)

Steve Mueller -:- Really Helping Ourselves Practically -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:11:33 (EST)
__ Joe -:- She is misinformed -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:50:01 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- I agree with Joe, TOTALLY -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:51:16 (EST)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: I agree with Joe, TOTALLY...... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:25:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- The MYTH of Rawat coming out! -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:58:13 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Well said, Joe and Francesca [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:46:15 (EST)
__ cq -:- Re: Really Helping Ourselves Practically -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 07:11:26 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Isn't EPO emough for her???? [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 06:48:50 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- A longer response -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:23:14 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- John, a request re. EPO -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:59:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- EPO and Forum are no longer linked -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:08:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Duh! yeah, Fran, but the page was on EPO -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:48:23 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Hey, hold on there a minute! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:41:02 (EST)

Barry -:- Thanks for the memories! -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:35:05 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Being Jim's friend... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:53:55 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Barry -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:26:37 (EST)
__ dv -:- Good Riddance -nt -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:05:19 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Thanks for the toonies -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:08:27 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Stay cool, dude -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:19:17 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- Barry - see you on AG/Satchitchat? (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 04:06:14 (EST)

Vicki -:- Maharaji up close and personal -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:16:01 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Maharaji up close and personal -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:44:34 (EST)
__ __ Gregg -:- Guru as Rock Star -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:07:50 (EST)
__ __ __ OTS -:- Denver Residence -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:46:56 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- GREAT POSTS -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 04:42:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Pullaver -:- Apologist? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:28:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Apologist? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:25:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- With you all the way, Pull -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:57:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I share your feeling [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:59:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Well spoken loaf, -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 06:31:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Metal Guru -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 04:45:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Who ???? no not me [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:53:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- **Best Of Forum** thread -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:21:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Wow! Read this thread, people -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:36:58 (EST)

Deborah -:- BART Simpson is a Scientoligist -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:04:53 (EST)
__ janet -:- well sonny bono is dead -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 03:50:12 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- F7 Book Link (OT?) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:59:06 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Reading... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:04:13 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: F7 Book Link (OT?) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:57:57 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- PS -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:42:16 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Well!!! -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:35:12 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: F7 Book Link (OT?) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:29:02 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Bai Ji -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:43:25 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Carl Sagan -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:08:19 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki the Nagging Mother -:- Re: Carl Sagan -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:31:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: What The..... -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:44:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Oh yes you did! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:19:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Oh yes you did! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:36:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Stupid is just another word for lack of confidence -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 03:33:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Not deprived any longer :) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:29:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Brava Deborah,Thanks (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:52:54 (EST)
__ pullaver -:- thanx 4 compiling book list (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:15:25 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Pull up to my Bumper Baby -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:36:31 (EST)

Barry -:- So there you have it! -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:07:59 (EST)
__ housemum -:- Go Away NOW! (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:56:26 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Re: So there you have it! -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:35:36 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Thank you. That was refreshing.(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:25:42 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Wow Bai Ji! Amazing Grace! -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:06:54 (EST)
__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Stevie Ji.. -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:00:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- (Personal to Bai Ji) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:23:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Gotcha Stevie.Ta Luvvie (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:49:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- I agree.(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:26:37 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- suffering in silence - Nicely said Bai Ji [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:09:36 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Barry, Listen to your friend, Jim...N/T [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:31:41 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Face it, Bar, you can never fit in here -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:27:38 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Fine! But Moley is still a bitch.... -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:29:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- A *very* telling choice of phrase.. -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:48:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Damn well said, Nigel -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:54:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Nige, you're a sweetheart... [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:43:56 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- That's nice, Jim. Thanks [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:11:50 (EST)
__ Moley -:- Re: So there you have it! -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:26:22 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- They will all see you soon for what u are. -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:30:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Been looking in the mirror, have we? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:57:03 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- No. But don't continue this Bar -:- Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:20:00 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:11:36 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: All
Subject: women according to M, '72, for Marianne
Message:
Below, in the photo exchange, I wrote about finding a copy of the 1976 newspaper Light Reading, published in Denver. Now I'm tearing through boxes of DLM artifacts and I just found a soft bound book 'Divine Ligh't with M in his Krishna suit on the cover. It says Guru Puja Special on a banner across the botton right edge.

This book, which I think I've seen on EPO, is a treasure-trove of M calling himself God, telling us all to 'Lay flat on His Feet and say 'Alright, I surrender myself to you.'

From a satsang entitled 'He Created Everything' given in Johannesburg, 3rd May, 1972, (page 213) M says 'You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it.'

And then he makes a comparison to Rolls Royces. Already, 1972, he's obsessed with Rolls.

There you have it. M is God, God came through a woman, and because He came through a woman, He comes in the form of a man, to 'equalise.' Yeah, tthat's be fair.....

Not only is he a liar, but he has no freaking sense of logic. M has to be the WORST rhetorician alive.

All these artifacts have me so wired, I'll never go to sleep tonight.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:55:15 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Standard Hindu Boilerplate
Message:
That's what M's schtick about women is. Generic Hindu justification for the oppression of women. Countless Hindu gurus have said the same thing, often with a smarmy smug expression.

All about how great women are cuz they give birth...hey, even God-in-the-flesh (ME! sez Maharaj Ji) has to come through a birth canal.

The purpose of this proclamation of the fabulosity of the feminine gender? Obviously, as a cover for the unstated belief in women's inferiority in all other non-parenting non-cooking areas of human endeavor.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michell
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
That would be a great quote to have in EPO's quote section,

but I need the exact quote and reference in order to make it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:26:38 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michell
Subject: Re: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
Do you want me to post it hear? If you give me your email address and promise to keep me anonymous, I'll send it to you that way. Either way is fine.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:35:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: housemum
Subject: Re: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
Which way you like.
Of course I won't out you here or anywhere else, and lose my credibility ....

Jean-Michel

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:40:33 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
Dear JM, Tell me exactly what you want and if it's not too long, I'll put it here for others' enjoyment (waves of nausea). Otherwise I'll send it to you via email. (This stuff actually makes me physically ill--no joke)
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:57 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: As you like
Message:
1st the whole text/paragraph

Then the name/date/#/page of the publication.

Your comments if you like, or anybody else's ......

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:06:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: This should go on EPO
Message:
'You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it.'

This should be saved on EPO, iff it isn't already there. I remember that quote about women. Right it's all about the equality of women. Maharaji the feminist.

Plus, Maharaji is clearly claiming to be God here, pointing out once again that Maharaji is a big, fat liar in claiming that he never did that.

This should go on EPO someplace. J-M is it there already?

Housemum, don't throw all that crap away. There could be valuable historical crap in there that people should know about.

As I think you know, at one point Maharaji gave 'agya' for people to destroy all that incriminating, embarrassing stuff. Apparently that agya wasn't too successful.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:53 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm ill from my discoveries
Message:
Hi Joe, Thank the stars I wasn't around for the search and destroy agya. I have a box of artifacts that kept me up til 3am. I have my DLM identification card from '74! And xeroxed copies of letters that M wrote. And copies of local premie newspapers--filled with satsang.

In this book Divine Light, which is over 250 pages, he makes it VERY clear that he is God. I am nauseous from reading this stuff last night. I remember BELIEVING it.

The other scary memory I had was that I was given some of M's hair from his premie-barber, and I actually put it in locket and wore it constantly. I found the locket...with the hair....I'm going to throw up now....

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:25 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: I'm ill from my discoveries
Message:
Hi Housemum,

If it makes you ill, then save it, but put it away for a while--there'e no need to torture yourself. I also have that big fat book, lots of audio tape from the 70s and some hairs too.

But, please don't throw anything away because there may be some stuff that Jean-Michel doesn't have that you do have that could be sent to him.

When you feel up to it, maybe you could make an inventory of your m stuff.

Above all, be good to yourself,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:20:14 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks. Very helpful reassurance (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:39:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: EPO's quote section's here
Message:
M's most famous quotes> and Ev's archives.

Don't forget your barf bag ......
[
EV's archives and M's quotes ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:32:36 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: J-M Get the Whole Book!!
Message:
Yes, a barf bag would be in order upon finding some of that hair. Is it greasy? Yuck.

What do the letters say?

J-M is the master at getting documents onto the website, so if they are good, he can probably just put them up there. That quote is especially great. Remember that satsang he gave about why we should be vegetarian? See, animals that eat meat, lick water, and those who should be vegetarian, suck water. Since humans 'suck' they should be vegetarian. Plus, M said seeds are 'dead' and okay to eat. He was so full of shit, but he was right about one thing, he does suck.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, J-M
Message:
I think that Durga Ji letter asking for money to get Maharaji the Aston Martin should also go someplace on EPO. I remember going out and buying a Birthday card with my Ashram allowance and sending cash in a card to the P.O. Box Durga Ji told us about in Malibu.

I also recall there was some kind of 'phone feed' in which Durga Ji made a pitch to get M the car for his birthday. She said he 'really wanted that car.' Later, a film came out that showed him driving the car in the hills of Malibu. It made us so blissed out. ())

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:06:35 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Also, J-M
Message:
Yep, yep, yep. Remember that one, I do! She said instead of us all going out and spending ten dollars on a tie that Maharaji didn't need, we could put our money together and get him the car he reeeeeeally wanted. Voila! One Astin Martin coming right up.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:41:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Also, J-M
Message:
I remeber that one, and the birthday movie of the party at the residence ....

Anbody having the documents ?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:40:15 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: banned videos
Message:
I think I've got the birthday party movie on video. Also Eyes of Faith, Power of Love, Holi,
Satguru Has Come
and Lord Of The Universe (India 1971, not the Millennium73 documentary). They are grainy copies but an interesting bit of DLM archaeology.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:09:15 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Viewing the banned movies
Message:
Satguru Has Come? You have that? I love that film with the cool female, English narrator talking about how 'all the Mahaaaatmas prosTRATED bifo hm.'

What is the 'Holi' movie? And what is 'Eyes of Faith?'

Isn't 'Power of Love' that Australian movie in which M gives what seems like endless satsang and then there is an, equally endless, darshan line sequence?

Do you have "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?"

These must be seen. Can they be copied and distributed?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:32:20 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, about videos
Message:
Don't have Who Is GM.
Power of Love is the one set in Australia, bouncy boat ride, darshan line, etc.
Holi is combined US and Spain holi play and talk from around 1983.
Eyes of Faith was one of those theme videos that picked up on a single phrase 'eyes of faith' and expanded it to a whole video. Sort of an Eyes of Tammy Faye for premies.
Also have Long Beach 1997 which was the end of the line for myself and others.

The rare ones are grainy old versions from pre book burning era. I'll take a look at what I have and send you the tapes you want.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:58:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Bless you Richard
Message:
I've seen Long Beach, thank you very much. Barf.

But Satguru Has Come, and the Holi one would be great.

From what era is 'Eyes of Faith?'

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:38:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: These are rare films, Joe...
Message:
I particularly remember ''Power of Love.'' It's one of the first appearances that Maharaji made with Durga Ji in Melbourne, Aust. I distinctly remember it because it was shown a lot in 1975 when I became an aspirant. He gives satsang about confusion being like going to the bottom of the ocean and the sand kicking up, and ya wait awhile and then everything is clear and beautiful.

I clearly remember Durga Ji, sitting beside him at his feet dressed in a sari, (a nice one) and her eyes were dilated to the max.

Anyone who has these films please keep them.

I also remember as an aspirant watching the movie after Premlata was born...name of film???...he's sitting on a beige couch with his arm around Marolyn holding Premlata, with big windows behind--I assume a view of the pacific.

Yikes...that was a memory rush...
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:34:45 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: 'the vine of love'?
Message:
the movie with the soundtrack of that girl songing in a real high soprano voice ' child, child of the morning...
weave a vine of love
tie all our hearts
to our Lord, please?
and Thank You Maharaji, for this child...'

i never owned any of the videos i wish i had. i drifted away before the video era got underway fill swing, and didnt own a VCR until just a coupla years ago.
shoot--think I oughta blow some dough on the VISIONS fire sale before theyre all gone??

nahhh- I'd rather pay you guys to dupe them for me.

hey--it IS my past, yah know. I didnt live another one.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:16:47 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: These are rare films, Joe...
Message:
Some of that footage was shot in the ballroom of the Chevron Hotel in Kings Cross, Sydney.

A couple of independent filmmakers were trying to sneak footage on their super 8 but later had it stolen, mysteriously.

We had a birthday party for Marolyn in another hotel and I think some of the footage is in the film, too. M loved the film and Oz filmmakers were flavour of the month but the next one, Keep On Trucking, bombed.

Nevertheless, Greg Dee was, and is, a talented filmmaker.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:01:46 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: 'I Must Have That Man'
Message:
Can you tell us anything about the making of this Aussie award winner? 'I Must Have That Man' starring M. Padarthanand based on a Shakespear play I think? I think our delightful friend Malcom D might have had a hand in it. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 17:32:15 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: 'I Must Have That Man'
Message:
Yes, that was Malcolm and his brother Graeme. More their own imagination than Shakespeare, I think. It was set in a mansion in Sydney and also starred Peter Edge, who had a lively and interesting history with DLM. The soundtrack had some great music, including a Louis Armstrong number, I think.

Their earlier animated film 'High As A Kite' featured the Moody Blues song of the same name and was decidedly psychedelic rather than ashramic. Before they became premies, they also did a short film based on Huxley's 'Doors Of Perception', and I saw that at a film festival in 1970.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:22:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Ten Ton Tiny Takes Knowledge
Message:
Malcom Davey is certainly a prince among men and a real fine creative film maker.

I tagged along as a helper bee when he made the hilarious propgation film 'Ten Ton Tiny Takes Knowledge'. It was basically a day in the life of Tiny, portrayed con gusto by Gregory (a.k.a. Tiny) Rhineheart. Tiny was close to three hundred pounds and the ends as Tiny, having received K, sits to meditate and literally floats up and sails away. There were dancing girls dressed in long white dresses singing 'knowledge, knowledge, knowledge of the soul'.

If you're lurking here Malcom, a big howdy from the guy you always called Southern Man.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:44:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Housemum does....
Message:
She has a copy of the letter from Durga Ji asking for cash to buy M the car.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:17 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Housemum's fear and loathing
Message:
I'm deciding how to go about this. The problem I'm having is emotional(no joke). As long as I talk/write about my premie days in the abstract, I'm fine. When I start getting close to it, I get terrified. Anybody know what I'm talking about? Or is just me...
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:31:40 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: Housemum's fear and loathing
Message:
All your faith in a freindly life that has an awareness of you and
a relationship with you is seemingly threatened.

No need to distress about that one, just put it aside and work on the separating of your programming that it was m.
Then you will find yourself able to recognise that what was valid for you in that relationship WAS valid and is not at all threatened by this mask removal of someone who was not even the one you were having the relationship with.
Or more simpler, perhaps, life was willing to have a relationship with you in the way you were. What kindness and comfort you looked for and recieved in this life was given IN SPITE of our religious
thinking.

What deep relationship you have with your freindly life still there for you to have.
Imagine a kid growing up in the sun yung moon cult, that kids sincerety WILL be rewarded although life would prefer that moon was out of the way as he is only limiting the relationship.
Same with out guru lord. He limited us.
He was in the way frankly.
This freeing is a blessing only if you sail on afterward.
Life is more complex than we may wish, but the simple answer is that you can keep it as simple as loving yourself, loving others, and loving the concious god freind that is playing a bit of a rough game here.
There is a struggle here on earth, in the humans, and you can win the game by decideing to try to love despite the failings of yourself and
others.
No need to waste time waiting to come back to that one, just engage
in that and later, over time, you will find yourself having understanding of what you went through.
Dont wait till THAT process is over to start back in with loving life.

You WILL understand.
Just give yourself time, and trust that information will clear things up.
The smartest approach would be to jump over the mess and re-engage yourself with your previous loving of life and your companionship
with the freindly life. Now you can be open of course to letting
mistakes and wrongs go as they will, but again, you do NOT have to wait till all the dust clears to get back on track.

It is not mandatory to break apart. I dont reccomend it.
Try to compartmentalize this nightmare. Have time to try to figure it out, when you are here on the forum, and then make a complete break with the rest of your day so that the rest of your day is good and whole (as much as it can be with murphys law)

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:41:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: Housemum's fear and loathing
Message:
Mum, I gave boxes and boxes of divine trash away the day after I decided to leave the cult a year ago because I could not bear having it in my house. I still have a few videos but, even after a year out of it, I cannot bring myself to look at them.

My fear and loathing seems to be a reaction to the strong emotions I had invested in Rawat. It is my horror at those unspoken but deep bonds that induce nausea in me. I'm sorry you had to feel it. I don't yet have the stomach for it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:24:39 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: I think I know what you mean ...
Message:
I don't know how long it's been since you were a premie, Housemum, but sometimes it's best to give it a few years before risking contact with cult propaganda material like that. It can be contagious! And the anger it can unleash! (not that there's anything wrong in letting yourself go and expressing that anger, of course - in fact it can be quite therapeutic, if the people around you understand what's going on, and are supportive).

Here's wishing you well,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:23:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Oh yes.....
Message:
I left the cult in 1983, went to an ex-cult group with Joy and did some therapy. By about 1986, I didn't think about it at all.

Fast forward to 1997, and I hear about EPO. So much time had passed, I thought I had nothing more than idle curiosity about what people I knew were doing, and what was happening with the cult in the 90s.

So, I started posting. First, I was terrified to even post. And I couldn't figure out why. Then when that pissed me off and I chose to ignore the fears, and I started to think and talk about my cult past, all those icky premie fears came up in my gut. I was literally nauseous, and I had trouble sleeping a couple of nights, etc. But it went away pretty fast. I realized that the programming was extremely deep. And like you said, the reactions I had were completely irrational and entirely emotional. Mostly what I felt was FEAR. And I also realized that FEAR was the predominate, or at least the strongest emotion in the cult, and that I had called it LOVE back then. Right, I called it LOVE. I saw again how twisted it all was, and I still had scars from it.

So, it isn't just you. I think it's a very normal experience.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:27:00 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Oh yes.....
Message:
Thanks Joe. I've done lots of therapy in the 25 years since I exited, so I'm shocked that this box of stuff has me sitting here in front of my computer, feeling shaky and paralyzed. Gulp...
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:35:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: The thing is.....
Message:
Now that all this time has passed, you have distance, and you are a completely different person now than you were in the cult, with so much more of a sense of who you are. So, I think it's really healthy to bring it up into the light of day, out of the dark corners of the psyche, and kill it.

Those 'fears' that J-M listed below were so ingrained in us by Maharaji. I really think they weren't just beliefs, they became a part of our emotional make up. When I felt those fears come up again, I think I was dealing with the vestages of all that.

Housemum, love your analysis of all this. Also love the way you put your self into it. It's powerful stuff. Hugs to you.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This is valuable stuff
Message:
Please email me about this

jmkahn@club-internet.fr

Needs to be carefully scanned, or sent by snailmail.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:22:32 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M....
Message:
Don't you already have that big book, the Guru Puja Special?

I thought you told me you did.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:29:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think I own the book
Message:
and should find the quotes.

Just need the pages .....

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:42:47 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM, pg numbers
Message:
The quote about women is from Divine Light, Vol 1 No. 2, satsang entitled 'He Created Everything' pages 202-214. The specific quote I cited is on page 213.

If you need it, I can snail mail this stuff to you. Let me know.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:19:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: JM, pg numbers
Message:
OK, I'll check the book today.

BUT you'll have to mail me Marolyn's letter about the Aston Martin's purchase ...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:21 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: This is valuable stuff
Message:
I will email you. I'm fighting this overwhelming urge to disappear. Just to give you all a live-cam look into my psyche, my impulse is to put the box away, go back to my life, and never do the forum again. Clearly I have internalized an amazingly intense censor in regard to m. Give me some time to deal with these feelings. I'm going to do it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:34:53 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Well, as Joe has said, fear was certainly a MAJOR part of the sub-conscious programming. And it can go deep into a person's psyche.

But always remember - the choice is yours. Whether to pack it all away and bury it again, or to face that fear and confront the effect it has on your freedom to be the person YOU want yourself to be.

And if there really is such a thing as divine retribution - be assured that M should be getting his ... with interest! I don't think the real Mr God would want to be impersonated by such a shady, greedy little character as Mr Goo!.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 01:27:15 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
housemum, here's a tale from my early exiting period that might shed some--ahem--light?
---
on what you're feeling now:
as it began to sink in , how much of my long held rituals and practices were nothing but futile clinging and empty repetition of things I had learned to do while a 'premie', either believing they would make me 'holier' or things i was doing in some weird notion of trying to demonstrate to anyonlookers how superior 'we were', I began to walk thru my house, especially my closets, and could spot things I absolutely hated havine around, that I realized were nothing like what the real me wanted to have around me.
I got up one day and ruthlessly pulled out all the clothes I had still in my possession that were only in my wardrobe because they had some significance to being a premie--and told my son to take em to the thrift store or chuck em.
a short time after that, I was going thru my bookshelves and opened a cloth jewel box i didnt remember buying, opened it up, and discovered it was a lotus made of austrian crystals. I was ambivalent what to do about it. It was a flashy little tchotchke, allright. I couldnt make up my mind. So I set it in my sunny window to see if the sight of it made me feel good or bad.
Within 24 hours, it shattered itself, just like that. I found it all in pieces the next day, unable to be repaired.
you scientists can say it was the extremes of heat and cold in the window, if you like.
metaphysically, I prefer to see it as a clear sign from Life as to what my decision should be.
Superstitious? ok. probably. But pretty hard to miss the symbolism.

My advice is to face the icky feelings. Confront the pain. Get steely and stare it down.

With time, I have decided to retain some of the things I always liked, and i like them over and above what they meant to me in the cult. Things like all cotton clothing, big yoga whites pants, earthy stuff that doesnt bind, doing yoga when i feel the urge, massage, keeping as peaceful a home as I can, keeping the books that i liked regardless of whether i acquired them as a premie or otherwise...
the first few weeks to months, it was a mishmash. i would find myself humming old One Foundation songs and be rattled, wondering where that came from, but i couldnt shut it up. I would get all tied up in geordian knots, worrying and wondering if i was still a premie who was just having a bout of delusion, or a sane person who was still soaking wet from nearly drowning in 27 years of pretending, and was just letting myself dry out naturally.

but i know this much:
I DID NOT WANT TO GO ANYWHERE NEAR PREMIES OR MAHARAJI. I DID NOT GO RUNNING TO WATCH VIDEOS, OR CALL UP OLD PREMIE FRIENDS AND TRY TO GET THEM TO TALK THE TALK TO MAKE MY DOUBTS GO AWAY. I WAS CLEAR ON THE CERTAINTY THAT I HATED THE CULT AND HATED THE MASTER, AND THAT WE HAD NOTHING IN COMMON ANYMORE, AND SINCE THERE WAS NO WAY IN HELL THAT I WAS GOING TO TURN MORE IN THE DIRECTION HE WAS GOING, THE ONLY WAY WE MIGHT EVER WALK TOGETHER AGAIN WOOULD BE IF HE WERE TO TURN MORE IN THE DIRECTION I WAS GOING.

and i seriously doubt THAT's gonna happen in this lifetime.

Deputy dog asked how do you know if youe an ex. I was going to answer him
'you know youe an ex, when its clear to you that you despise the master and he despises you, that you arent aiming at the same ends anymore, that you wouldnt lift a finger to help him, and you know damned well he wouldn't lift a finger to help you
either. You know it when you go to a program and he is there in person, and you walk out in the midst of his show because the agony in your back, your empty stomach, your sleep deprivation and the value you place upon yourself is higher than the value you can muster for being in the same room with him.
You know you're an ex when no one anywhere in the whole hall deems you fit to speak to, fit to recognize, after 27 years of supposedly knowing one another all over the world, when the barest request to be allowed to sit down someplace can't be met, because everybody else is so officious, important, assigned, and consumed with their niche in the pecking order.
you know you're an ex when you get up before dawn to get to a hall you can walk to from your house, mill around, unable to sit down, for hours past noon, don't get to eat, get kicked out of stall after stall for trying to sit in empty chairs reserved for people who aren't there (and never arrive,) find yourself alienated and repelled by the insidious machinery of issuing Smart Cards, and finally get the ultimate kissoff from the master himself, when he ditches the stage and tells his lackeys to turn on a dvd, of him showing you the same damn techniques you've been doing for 27 years, and he can't even hang around himself to keep you company during it.

that's when you walk out, and go to the nearby outdoor pedestrian mall, go look for your street friends, and tell them how pissed you are and invite them to eat lunch with you. and in looking around at the faces of all these people who aren't premies, who have helped you and whom you have helped again and again, you realize that THESE are your people, that THIS is your life, not that fakery you just left, back there, over your shoulder.

and then on reflection, you remember that you had the same realization after the last program you went to. and the one before that. and the one before that, as well. but you didn't get up and walk out until today, because you still clung on, still held fast, still hoped it would turn around.

but today, you know you're an ex
---
when you don't want him, and you know he doesn't want you, either.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:16:10 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Hi everybody, This is an interesting thread and it echoes something I've been thinking about today......the fear. I was asking myself if I could ever tell anyone the techniques, i.e. my non-premie partner. He asked me the other day what they were, and I said we weren't allowed to reveal them. I KNOW this is ridiculous, but please remember as I told you all before, I'm still in the process of exing. The very thought of telling him or anyone the techniques fills me with abject terror. I KNOW they're on EPO, I know they're all in books, but I just can't say it. It's fear of being eternally damned, and I'm nowhere near shaking it off yet. I guess when I can do it, I'll know the process is over....but till then, the fear is there. I must have absorbed it very deep. Help.......

with love, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:06:42 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Hi Livia,
I exited out a little over six months, which is not that long ago compared to my uninterupted, continuous involvement since 1974.
Shortly after exiting, I showed the techniques to my two teenagers, who were ready to ask for the knowledge until I accidently ended up on EPO. I felt completely like a traitor doing this. At first I just told them to read the techniques, but they were confused. In retrospect it seems silly, but at the time it unnerved me. The last program I attended was a year ago Easter in Santa Monica. Maharaji unleashed the autoknowledge as a review, trying it out on us. The beginning has him saying 'the only thing I ask, is give knowledge a fair chance, stay in touch, and don't reveal these techniques to anyone.' In that darkened auditorium with his voice booming around our heads it was more intense than wedding vows.

Now, I don't feel so crazed by it. I kept good my promise for all those long years, but what promise was I even keeping? That's what I ask myself now. He made it all a fraud, from beginning to end. It's taken all these months, with daily picking apart the cult bit by bit, putting together the pieces of the puzzle that everyone who posts here brings to the picture. Several times I think, ah finally, the picture is complete, then lo and behold, someone posts a snippet of information that blows apart the life I thought was real. I see, yet once again, the picture was/is bigger than I imagined.

It's probably one of the hardest things, because revealing those techniques for me was like crossing a sacred line, and there was no going back. Knowledge was sacred to me for nearly three decades. I wasn't smart enough to see through the fraud on my own. Elan Vital and occasionally premies, drove me nuts with the politics and power plays, but I never allowed myself the slightest inkling that Maharaji had anything to do with any of this. How naive. I, of all people, should have known better. The CEO always sets the tone for the company. The proverbial trickledown affect. And revealing those techniques directly challenge the psyche in believing his omnipresence, as the lord incarnate. That is the deepest seed of all planted in us. Those techniques are his stock and trade. Without them, what does he have? Like Sir Dave has pointed out, they are for sale at a local grocery store in England for a few pounds. Kind of cuts Maharaji out of the contribution loop.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:55:58 (EST)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Livia
Subject: I understand your fear
Message:
Dear Livia,

I received Knowledge in 1972, walked away from the cult in '79, but never revealed the techniques to anybody until the summer of '98, when I demonstrated them to my therapist in the privacy of his office. Here are some excerpts from my 1998 Journal:

'Premies would say that I received Knowledge but I am not practicing the Knowledge. Knowledge doesn't 'work' except by the grace of the Guru, and I am no longer a devotee; so even if I practiced the techniques, I wouldn't experience the bliss. Now I have gone a step further; I have revealed the techniques to a non-premie. I keep waiting for lightning to strike me dead.

Am I reverberating? Yes. Majorly. Chills and fever. First I'm cold to the bone, covered with goose-bumps, shivering in bed with the blankets piled on, curled up in a fetal position; and the next thing I know I'm drenched in sweat.

Am I angry at God? Guru Maharaj Ji was God Incarnate to me and I am definitely angry at HIM...
Sound-bites from the seventies are echoing in my head: 'Guru is greater than God because he can show you God.'
I have disobeyed Agya. I think I'm going to throw up.
'I can show you God.'
'Knowledge without devotion is dry. Devotion without Knowledge is blind.'
'This is why, time and again, Guru Maharaj Ji has to come.'
'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? The lover of your soul.'
'Maharaj Ji never loses a premie.'

The next morning, I was able to sit and do Tong-len practice for five minutes. That's all I could do. I was sad all day. More than sad: heartbroken. Went for a walk, couldn't shake the feeling. How to explain to anyone but another ex-premie how much I miss that intensity of living, as painful as it could be? Is this what being grown-up is like? Where did the magic go? Who the hell have I become? Where is the passion? I spend my days working at remaining calm. And my heart aches. I feel so isolated...

By the afternoon of the third day, I was feeling a lot of anger but was able to use the energy to get some things accomplished. That night, I practiced So-hung and Nectar to settle into concentrating, and then did Mai-tri for the rest of my sitting. Afterwards I wrote,

'I have to learn to accept the validity of the experiences I had in my Hindu Twenties, and incorporate them into my Buddhist Forties. It's a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if I deny what I learned and what I felt during all those years of practicing Knowledge. I need to stop being ashamed of my 'Guru Phase,' and realize that I am still that person, but not only that person...Revealing the techniques affected me profoundly. First I was physically sick, then emotionally sick, and now I am beginning to feel empowered. What next?'

After a week, I was beginning to ask the right questions:
'WHY was it so important never to reveal the techniques? It's a 'Proper Channels' thing. Only an ordained priest can transform bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ; this keeps the power in the Church. Only Mahatmas initiate. They reveal the Knowledge only to those who commit themselves completely to the Guru.
What danger is there in knowing and practicing the techniques without devotion to the Guru? Maybe the only danger is to the Guru, not to the devotee. He loses his power...
What I am destroying is his power over me. I am taking that power for myself. I don't need the Church to experience communion. All I need is the desire for communion.

Revealing the techniques cuts the cord. Not until that moment was I truly on my own. With freedom comes responsibility. I create my own reality. No one else is responsible for what I experience. Now I can create the 'Buddhaverse,' as Robert Thurman calls it, by accepting my responsibility to alleviate the suffering of all sentient beings. I must do it myself. I must not rely on the Guru to do it.
Meditation isn't just for me. It's for all beings everywhere. Premies are 'end-users.' They breathe in love - from Guru Maharaj Ji - and when they breathe out, they give him their suffering. I want to be at one with the source of that love, not a parasite, but a giver. I want to breathe IN the pain of the world, transform it, and breathe it OUT as love...
Can I experience intense, passionate, ecstatic mystical devotion without Guru as catalyst?

My therapist advises me to 'Honor my transgression.'
It is good to transgress a bad law.
It is even good to transgress a good law, If by doing so one achieves a greater good; but one must be willing to suffer the consequences.
It takes courage to deliberately break a bad law, or a good law for a greater good.
Keeping a secret for twenty-six years because I said I would is honorable.
Telling that secret in a safe environment is liberating.

I feel a deep, calm sadness, but I feel connected. And I feel hope.'

Love,
Babs

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:13:57 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: absolute ***BEST OF FORUM***
Message:
you touched a number of chords for me there, Babs.

A huge thank you.

(and J-M or John, please find somewhere high profile for this on EPO if poss.)

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 02:40:16 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Thanks, Babs
Message:
Whenever I read bits of your journal when you post them I always feel like a peeping tom. You are so naked and also I feel as if you have expressed things that I have thought about but haven't yet put into words.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:29:31 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Beautiful post, Babs (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:15:12 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
I once got drunk at a party and went around the room showing the techniques to everyone. We turned it in to party games. Very freeing. Of course they're all enlightened now....
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:30:00 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Livia...When you are ready....-)
Message:
When you are ready to show anyone, but it's the funnest when you show your partner, it will, I guarantee, be one of the greatest releases you can imagine in this exiting.

Before the first time I did it I was terrified--I took a ''sacred vow!'' I showed my husband. He didn't even react. Christ, he helped me reapolster my super-duper, telesoping leg, foam with velvet covered beragon when I started meditating during my short return to the cult in the late 90's.

It's a freeing experience. Don't be afraid. You don't have to obey Maharaji anymore.

Freedom. Choice. Mind. Your life belongs to YOU!!!

Have fun,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:49:38 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Thanks you guys. I'm okay now. Do you know the cartoon character in the US called Mr. Magoo (is that how it was spelled?). Your comment about Mr. God not wanting to be impersonated by Mr. Goo brings that wacky character to mind. Thanks for the laugh.

If any recent exes or fence sitters or pwks need proof of how deep the programming is, keep in mind that I left in 1976. I have a wonderful life, great career, lots of friends, emotional health, and STILL, after all these years, I am dealing with the detrimental effects of GMJ and his programming. Thanks to EPO and forum participants for allowing me to realize this. I love you guys.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:27:55 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: List the threats, and don't be scared
Message:
When I found myself out of the cult, with no interet anymore in gazing at Rawat.

I guess this is part of the process of exiting a cult. mainly because we've been brainwashed for decades, believing that
- this life is a hell without M&K
- the mind is going to devore us alive
and all the nice things M threatened us with.

Remember ?

I guess maybe listing the threats we gor FROM HIM, would be helpful.
This is extremely scary, but so ridiculous. Only US in this cult believed it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:24:03 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: List the threats, and don't be scared
Message:
I never thought of it in terms of threats, but really, how else was he going to keep us there and to this day, continue to keep anyone there? His latest go arounds are warning of the internet and rumors.

It's amazing isn't it, that he can talk of the door always being open, that a premie is free to simply leave if they don't like the practice of knowledge, while at the same time instilling these fears straight into our psyche. It's like the tobacco companies saying 'Don't smoke if you don't like it. We aren't forcing anyone to smoke.' Yet bazillions are spent on studying target groups, and there's the entire chemical additives that make it more powerful than heroine addiction by bonding stuff straight into the brain. His satsang, the mahatmas, initiators, Marolyn's, Raja Ji's, Shri Hans', Mata Ji's, along with David Smith, Ira Woods, and all the other crackpots, shot that stuff as surely as if they stuck a hyperdermic needle in us. Getting the last of the residue can leave a person with a fatal allergic reaction.

I think that's what was done to us. Take the lord and put all these implied threats of a life worse than hell after leaving knowledge, and the fear is cemented, yet it was beautifully wrapped in gift paper called devotion. Throw in the added punch that the lord incarnate is saying it and there's a double whammy. It's no wonder so many of us got sick after facing all this stuff.

Maybe the fear is now knowing how close to the edge of no return Maharaji takes unsuspecting people. And maybe you're sensing the real dark side of the entire propaganda. We believed him. And he violated that trust. Pure and simple. He violated the part of us that was the very core of our beings.

Have a nice cup of tea and thank your lucky stars.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:32:15 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: List the threats, and don't be scared
Message:
Maybe I left but didn't exit. Now I'm crying. Wow. Maybe I just shut the door on the stuff and didn't actually deal with it. Lot's of sadness now. Whoa. We were all so hopeful. Sorry to drag this out online. You guys are a big help though.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:07:02 (EST)
From: Cyntahia
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Housemum...It's okay to have your feelings...
Message:
Dear Housemum,

We have all gone through what you are feeling in our individual ways. I suspect that you exited the cult, but there's a lot that's still inside of you that hasn't surfaced for years. Crying is good, btw. I find crying a great release.

And please don't apologize for having feelings that are coming up now. You see, this is what happens when someone is cult programmed. Just walking away isn't enough. I tell you a story.

You may or may not know that I had a difficult childhood which caused me to a develop dissociative identity disorder, among many other emotional disorders and physical side-affects of childhood torture.

I spent ten years in intensive therapy to overcome many of these problems that haunted my life. I reached a point when I was feeling pretty healthy, then BOOM...I found EPO. I realized that I hadn't processed any of the cult issues and programming, and my therapist, who is quite good, really didn't have a clue about cults.

I became enraged because after all that time and money I spent working out my emotional problems and disorders about 'home,' I discovered that I hadn't even scratched the surface of being brainwashed by the Maharajism cult. A new big plate of issues for me to deal with was put in front of me.

Having one's mind taken away (which is what Maharaji does) has a profound affect on one's brain, emotions, and view of the world. I'm not surprised that you are surprised to be having these feelings now.

You go have your cry, and if you need to, put the box of maharaji crap away until you are ready to look at it again. Or maybe another ex-premie can help you out with the materials, if that's possible. It's entirely up to you.

I hope you continue to use this forum to vent your anger and cry your tears. We all do it right here.

What I suggest you do is comfort yourself, however you comfort yourself, and give yourself a lot of credit for coming this far.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:13:28 (EST)
From: Chris (not cq)
Email: None
To: Cyntahia
Subject: What is PROCESSING exactly
Message:
Just want to say I LOVE this thread and totally relate to everything housemum is going thru.

however, call me slow, but I still don't quite understand what everyone means by processing all the programming. I do understand that everything thrown at me was generations of leftovers from an old Indian cult meditation spiritual practice, but I don't quite understand what I'm supposed to do with it all now in order to 'process' it. Is processing just another word for examining each concept/belief/understanding in another light and then dissecting/re-examining and/or rejecting it from a non-biased point of view instead of through my old trusting believer's sponge-for-ears? Or is it a whole psychological process as well - in which case I would need a therapist who knows a thing or two about cults.

As for what I feel, I am so glad I have nothing more to do with and have no more need for devotion/personality worship. I certainly did go through my own share of fears back in December and couldn't decide whether to post or not to post. Housemum, I know you will do whatever is in you to do. Myself, I'm glad I posted - a huge weight felt lifted within days after doing so. Although I'm still terrified of friends/acquaintances still happily practising away on the other side of the fence who might know my real identity. It seems to be them (their discrediting judgements) I'm afraid of rather than MJ.... It could be a bit of leftover premie pride that I'm protecting, I don't know? My song of the month is Dylan's My Back Pages - 'I was so much older then; I'm younger than that now'

Chris, I need all the understanding of processing I can get

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:24:55 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Chris (not cq)
Subject: Re: What is PROCESSING exactly
Message:
Good question, Chris. I think it's different for different people.

I think I dealt with the intellectual/belief part of the cult -- I guess I mean I processed that, a long time ago. I stopped believing it, and looked at the bizarre stuff I believed as a premie and sorted that out, partly by talking to my friends who were still premies. I had to articulate it, and I talked to them about it until they, too, left.

At that time, my emotional feelings were a mixture of relief, excitement about getting on with my life, anger for having been duped, and a certain regret for having wasted years and hurt some of my family and friends.

But like I said above, that wasn't the end of it. There was something pretty deep down, fear-based I think, that came up years later when I talked about it again. So, being the stubborn person I am, I chose to tear it apart instead of just not looking at it. That was a pretty short 'process'.

Also, you might have been processing for quite some time before you left. I kind of jumped off the cliff -- out of the ashram and the cult at the same time, so it was a fairly dramatic shift. From what I gather, you seem to have understood what was going on with you, had the final straw and departed. So, it might be somewhat different for you.

I will say one thing. IMO the best way to process this is with other ex-premies. Like Cynthia, I saw a therapist for awhile who didn't know a thing about cults and so, it was helpful, but kind of just danced around the edges. The great thing about the Forum is that ex-premies know exactly what you are talking about and what it feels like. That's very valuable.

What amazes me, is that I guess there are still thousands of people who hold onto the fears and are still following Maharaji on that basis. It's hard to imagine. They are SO FEARFUL they cannot even criticize Maharaji at all. It just amazes me. To the extent EPO and the Forum can help people get out of that hell, I say it's worth the effort all of us are putting into this.

Chris, I've enjoyed your posts immensely. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:41:11 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What is PROCESSING exactly
Message:
Alright! Thanks, & I for one appreciate your efforts (nt)
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:12:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chris (not cq)
Subject: Re: What is PROCESSING exactly
Message:
Hi Chris,

You said:
Is processing just another word for examining each concept/belief/understanding in another light and then dissecting/re-examining and/or rejecting it from a non-biased point of view instead of through my old trusting believer's sponge-for-ears? Or is it a whole psychological process as well - in which case I would need a therapist who knows a thing or two about cults.

Yes to both. You're processing right now. You're sorting out the mindfuck and learning to reclaim your mind. Processing or healing are words that come from psycho-talk. It's really just about learning to reclaim your life.

Bless you, you are not slow...

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:35:57 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia (to all your helpful posts) (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:59:12 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Chris (not cq)
Subject: Is this Chris Dickie?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:20:15 (EST)
From: Chris (alias)
Email: jame916@aol.com
To: Gail
Subject: Re: Is this Chris Dickie?nt
Message:
Definitely not Chris Dickie! Chris is my alias. But if you're Gail McDougall, I would LOVE to hear from you. (Last 2 times I saw you were in LA in '96 and in NYC in '98 I think - you told me all about Brian and Zilla).

So if you're Gail McD, please send me an email - we've much to laugh about!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:17:26 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Cyntahia
Subject: Re: Housemum...It's okay to have your feelings...
Message:
You story resonates with mine. Thank you for your kind, comforting words. I'm going to take your advice. Love you.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:11:33 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: All
Subject: Really Helping Ourselves Practically
Message:
The following is feedback from Z, a lady who has connections with media people and whose only real interest in F7 is how it can help her interest her media friends in exposing M on national TV. I'm going to let her speak for herself.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - start of Z's feedback - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Good evening Steve,

Do me a favor, OK? Please forward me any good posts that talk more about M's possible demise or at least info about getting through to more premies, more premies leaving in droves, higher ups willing to post/go public.... stuff like that. I'll check into the forum once in a while - I appreciate hearing from you on any 'good' stuff, like you've sent.

I know each of these souls means well in their own right, it's turned into a soap opera. Heck, that's just my opinion - sounds like it goes back and forth like this much of the time. AND, that's what is naturally going to happen when you have people with intentions/psyches/agendas/experiences - all over the map. Makes for some interesting reading - but I'm going to focus more on what I can do to better my situation and the big-picture situation! Like I said, fun reading - just truly not interested in who's going to issue an apology next!!!! Peace to them all.

Once again, your efforts to keep everyone focused is commendable - I can't help but think how much 'could' be done if each of these people used all that energy to spend 'explaining' themselves - and put it to another, more healthy use. Them having a forum to express whatever they please - is healthy for them, I guess.

I know you see my point.

By the way, the thread you started about the movie titles is hilarious!!!

One more point, the Forum seems to be, to some, just another chat room. And THAT is what makes it 'not special'. That's too bad.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - end of Z's feedback - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, there you have it folks. She isn't saying that we shouldn't have some fun on F7 but she is saying that, in order for F7 to be truly USEFUL to herself and other media people, it needs more stories of people's actual experiences of how M messed up their heads and lives, specifics of why and how what he is doing is evil. She wants to help us bring M down but she needs our help. She can't bring her media friends to F7 as long as we use it almost exclusively as a chat room and almost never for the purpose for which it was originally started: mainly, a place for exes to use to broadcast to the whole world their own experiences of how M screwed up their lives so that everyone and anyone can see what an evil and sick monstrosity he is and what a danger he poses to innocent, impressionable, and unsuspecting young people the world over. In short, to put M out of the God business.

Re the favor she asked for above: sending her the posts and other info on M, I could use some help here. If you have time, copy/paste posts or info that she asks for into an email and send it to either myself or Cynthia (who can send it on to me). Then I can send it on to Z. I also suggest that she dig into the best of the forum threads on EPO (which was down for a long time recently and therefore not accessible to her). It's all new to her but we've seen it all before ourselves. But, anything you can do to help her cut to the chase will certainly expedite the process of debanking (misspelling intended) M.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:50:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: She is misinformed
Message:
I'm afraid your friend has a misperception about what the Forum is.

And I frankly find it bizarre that if she looked at EPO she wouldn't find exactly what she is looking for, a large portion of which came right from the Forum. That's why there is a 'best of' and why so much effort has been taken to categorize and select Forum posts and put them in a permanent location for EPO. It's all right there if she cares to look.

I'm not sure what her expectations are about the Forum, but they apparently aren't what it's about. My god, what does she want?

She should send her media friends to EPO, and/or be put in contact with any number of ex-premies and she will get more information than she can possibly use.

The purpose of the Forum is to let ex-premies talk to each other, to aid in the detox process, etc. That's what it's for, and IMO it's doing an excellent job.

She can email me if she wants. I'd be glad to talk to her. I know there are a dozen other ex-premies who would do the same.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:51:16 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I agree with Joe, TOTALLY
Message:
At the same time I've been part of attempts to clean up this Forum, this IS a chat board, not a source of documentation. That's EPO, the Journeys, the Dettmers stuff, the MacGregor stuff, the background information, etc. etc.

That's the media stuff, not the chatboard. I am not here to be scrubbed up and presented to the media, and at the same time we don't need OT stuff or trash talk, I don't want our participation to be contrived. That ends up smacking of cultishness -- like the good folks are going to scrub themselves up for the NY Times church lady service or something.

I understand that EPO was down, but that's where the stuff she's looking for resides. The really good posts and their resultant threads make it to Best of Forum eventually, and there is some really meaty stuff that never makes it there or the Best of Forum would be unwieldly.

I must admit I also resent the idea that some person we don't even know who says she has media contacts is telling us what to do, and trying to make this board suit her purposes. I am open to constructive criticism however, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as they say. Diamonds-in-the-rough-are-us at Forum 7. She needs to look at EPO.

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:25:12 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: I agree with Joe, TOTALLY......
Message:
..... So do I,& with you too Francesca. All these rumours that Rawat is going to come out in the public prints as a numero uno benefactor of mankind disturb me.

Why would he do that unless he thinks he could get away with it?

It's making the impression that counts , & hasn't he shown himself to be the master of that, if nothing else, all these years.

If it's a case of his spin doctors v 'ours', his win will. They've got more money. Shit what am I saying,they've got all of our money collected in dribs & drabs down the last 31 years.

c'mon Z. Have you got what it takes to go nose to nose with a very rich man who employs J.Roberts, noted US tax lawyer,to manage his affairs?

If you have, good luck,if you haven't,hang on in here for a bit & try & suss out the big break.

Time is coming soon.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:58:13 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: The MYTH of Rawat coming out!
Message:
This has been repeated countless times,
never happened,
and will NEVER happen.

This is just to keep premies happy, and give them a goal ..... and justify all the fundraisings, seminars, technological gadgets, The GV etc. you name it.

That's all.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:46:15 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Well said, Joe and Francesca [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 07:11:26 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Re: Really Helping Ourselves Practically
Message:
Steve, if your contact 'needs more stories of people's actual experiences of how M messed up their heads and lives' - is she aware of the 'Journeys' entries on EPO? (see link above)

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/journeys.htm
[ ex-premies' Journeys on EPO ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 06:48:50 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Isn't EPO emough for her???? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:23:14 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A longer response
Message:
Steve,

Tell Z this IS a chat room, nothing more, nothing less, with a topic of conversation. Revelations about the cult happen here occasionally, but anyone reading here expecting them will be disappointed. People here are human, and hence have differing opinions, and often disagree. That's the way it will always be. No, as Jim and Chris have said, EPO is what Z needs. Has she read it all yet? I know I haven't:-)

John.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:59:25 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John, a request re. EPO
Message:
I know your plate has been piled high recently with all the shenanigans involved in getting EPO up and running again, but there's one teeeeeeny little thing that would really help - and that's being able to use the search engine on the site. At present I just get a message that says: 'Forbidden. You don't have permission to access /search.cgi on this server'.

Oh, and just one other thing. There used to be a page that explained how to use basic HTML for posting on the Forum - you know, how to do bold, italics, links etc. Any chance of resurrecting that page?

I know I (and exes, and maybe even exes-to-be) owe you a big debt of gratitude for continuing to keep the site up and running. Though maybe you manage to look on it as a labour of love. I guess one big compensation is to hear what a big turning point it often is for premies when they discover EPO. Those who are finding the will and courage to question their involvement with the Goo get a lot of encouragement from what's printed there. Good on yer, mate! And J-M too.

Bests,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:08:29 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: EPO and Forum are no longer linked
Message:
cq,

You should address Gerry, the Forum administrator re your suggestions on HTML, etc. That worked on the former Forum software that was owned by Brian, the former Webmaster of EPO. This is a Hotboards forum, and Gerry, is the administrator.

Bests,

f

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:48:23 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Duh! yeah, Fran, but the page was on EPO
Message:
Duh! yeah, Fran, but the page was on EPO - and I'd like to pass on the HTML guidelines to a mutual friend.

OK. I won't sweat it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:41:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Hey, hold on there a minute!
Message:
Steve,

Completely welcome all your input and appreciate your friend, Z's, offer to assist. But let's not forget that the forum is not simply the AP (ExP?) Newswire. It's all sorts of things. It's incredible information, revealed fresh after years of shadowed whispers and cult level subterfuge. It's a place where ex-premies can speak out for and about their relevant, sometimes marginally relevant, experiences. It's never 'just' a chat room but it most certainly is a chat room indeed. Remember all that 'chit chat' we weren't supposed to have? Well, guess what?

If Z wants help finding any of the solid informational or analytical bullets we've collected, and she doesn't want to comb the archives herself for them, she can find the gist of the story on EPO. Beyond that, there are all sorts of people here who'd readily take the time to clearly shepherd her through the rest of the story as we've shared it.

Don't get me wrong, I was the one who clamoured to get rid of all the OT stuff we got into after 9/11. And yes, some of it was tangentially relevant but it was also far too fractious to maintain any cohesivity at all. We used to talk about evolution a lot too. There used to be some long, long arguments about evolution and its implications for spirituality generally. They invariably dragged out into roiling fights so now we don't do those anymore here (although RE is still the place to go if you want to talk about your spiritual beliefs without challenge). So, yes, there's a great benefit in keeping some semblance of focus here.

But stuff does happen, the forum does get messy at times. The thing to do, I beleive, is just clean it up, chill out and, well, keep on going. EPO is our informational clearing house and ready presentation for the world. This place is a bit of that and a bit of this. And, I think, it's just fine that way.

Anyway, if Z wants to know how best to put together the ex-premie information, like I say, it shouldn't be too hard. If she wants to know who's apologizing to whom, that shouldn't be so hard either.

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:35:05 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Thanks for the memories!
Message:
Jim's right and thats all I'm gonna say.
'Why the hell would I want to hang around here?'
I have no idea.

So long,

Barry............ out!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:53:55 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Being Jim's friend...
Message:
..was apparently your only grounds for being here. Pretty cool shelter, heh? Now even Jim is clearly embarrased by your contributions. So much so, you would apparently have to rely on your own thinking skills to justify any future presence here.

No wonder you are quitting.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:26:37 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry
Message:
Like CQ says.....Ag and Satchit-chat are ideal places if you want a laugh, a discussion or a bare-knuckle fight:)

Jims post was referring to just this place as I'm sure you've sussed.
Many of us have arguments from time to time and it's easy to get pissed off with what someone has said about you.

My tip for retaining a semblance of mental peace is to accept you'll nver agree with all the people all the time AND always having the last word isn't always what it's cracked up to be:)

By the way, you do know the Sat chit-chat is no longer the Anything goes forum don't you? At the top of the Sat chit forum, you'll see a link for AG. At the moment at AG though, it's just been some stupid Northern English tossers posting there:)

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:05:19 (EST)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Good Riddance -nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:08:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Thanks for the toonies
Message:
We'll find a permanent place for them. I'll ask Salam if they are up on his web site yet?

Wish you didn't have to leave for good. I think it's fun to have a few non-premies here but the decorum has to be maintained to make this forum work. It has a very specific purpose. Our futures depend on making this work for us, BAR. That's all!

Be well, and stay in touch w/me via email. You have it.

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:19:17 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Stay cool, dude
Message:
Hope you get the audience you deserve.
Richard
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 04:06:14 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Barry - see you on AG/Satchitchat? (nt)
Message:
Barry - see you on AG/Satchitchat? (nt)
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:16:01 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji up close and personal
Message:
I've been wondering about something. Many times I've read posts where then premies spent countless hours in toil preparing for Maharaji's arrival in various, non-event places. He never showed. Could it be that without the stage spotlight he paled, and knowing this orchestrated these little diversions to keep premies off balance, yet dying with devotion at the chance to see their 'lord' on such turf?

Those few that were allowed to be in that close proximity had to be ex-rated and sworn to secrecy. For what? What behavior of a living lord should have to have secrecy sworn? Well, of course we now know, but it was always we weren't open or devoted or deserving for his presence. I now think there was no 'divine' presence, so it was just another spoke in the con.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:44:34 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Maharaji up close and personal
Message:
He never showed. Could it be that without the stage spotlight he paled, and knowing this orchestrated these little diversions to keep premies off balance, yet dying with devotion at the chance to see their 'lord' on such turf?

---

Vicki,
This is exactly what did it for me, the final drip that made me so ripe to ex once I found out about EPO. To me, it was SO CLEAR. I know damn well that if I was truly a master, I would want to scour the world constantly, doing surprise visits on my followers, to physically be with them really up close, laughing with them, joking with them, listening to their concerns and soliciting their ideas on how to improve things. In short, a REAL LEADER, one who truly cared about his emotional dependents. THAT is what I thought he had in mind when he encouraged premies everywhere in August of 2001 to send him invitations to their communities. I guess he did go to a couple of places, but nothing like the impression he created - that he wanted to just drop by for small gatherings. Then, what did he go and do? Same old, same old. He throws another BIG program down in Florida where, as one of several thousand in the audience, there was no possibility of the kind of intimacy he teased us with in August. When I saw that, I was really pissed. That told me more than anything that he just plain didn't really care about us at all. Because, even without M, even before M, I have always known that love is action. When you truly love someone you WANT to be with them as much as possible. You don't play hard to get. He is a lot of things, but in this regard, he really is just a very insecure would-be rock star who loves to bask in the limelight, a very superficial, shallow, and very unsatisfying imitation of the real love that even he, deep down, would love to feel.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:07:50 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Guru as Rock Star
Message:
Great post, Steve. I had the same thoughts while living in Denver as a premie in 1978, my last year as a premie.

I remember the premies installing some red carpet on the stage entrance to the community hall on S. Sherman St., for the benefit of His Lotus Feet. He visited Denver a time or two that year, but he never set foot in the community center.

It made no sense. His Dahlia street residence was a twenty-minute drive from the center. And how happy his devoted foot-kissers would be to have their lord and master actually sit in the throne on the stage behind the satsang microphone!!

It seemed like a missed opportunity to jazz up a bunch of potential donors - not a good business move, even for a phony guru. How hard could it be? I can only guess that it might mean missing his nightly cognac or something.

The old community center, by the way, is a Spanish-speaking Pentacostal church now. And I sometimes bike past the old Divine Residence on the way to work. I wonder if the current inhabitants know the bizarre history of their house?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:46:56 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Denver Residence
Message:
Gregg: I don’t think even THE PREMIES know the bizarre history of the Denver Residence let alone the new occupants and what went on there back in the early 70’s.

Once M had us invite the neighbors over for a tea one afternoon to have the introduced to him and his mission while he was out of town. The movie “Satguru Has Come” was shown in the rec room along with tea and cookies, and I remember a few of the pretty blonde teenage girls in the group of 10 or so neighbors crying during the before and after satsang when they realized that they were living across the street from the real living Lord of the Universe. It came as quite a shock to them, I’m sure.

Or the time M had a near anger meltdown when he returned from his travels and found that someone had removed from his living room wall the black and blue PLUSH VELOUR VELVET artist rendition of “The Last Supper” which he had purchased that past Spring at a local gas station (sitting right there next to the plush Elvis renditions). Bob Mishler had ordered the “artwork” removed from the wall of the residence and placed in storage. The entire world came to a standstill as the artwork was located and returned from the warehouse immediately.

Or the time that M was taken sick with an ulcer, but misdiagnosed by Dr. John as some kind of liver aliment. He canceled his tour. He was in so much pain that he sort of zoned out of this world. A United Airlines stewardess (M. Johnson) was brought in to serve him meals. We could not understand who this person was and why she was brought in for this purpose. We learned later that they were an item an they later married. He was hospitalized for a couple of nights and we brought him home from the hospital in the Mercedes and he was as good a new. He stopped eating red chilies and the pain went away.

Or the time M and his mother Mataji got into a playful snowball fight on the front lawn. She in her white sari, he in a black suit and brown boots. Nice picture.

Or the hours I spent going over the intricacies of a pinball machine with M and revealing its secrets to him (shaking).

Or the time I dropped a five gallon bottle of water on the kitchen floor one evening after dinner. “Mop on aisle 5!”

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 04:42:05 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: GREAT POSTS
Message:
steve .. you reminded me anout the way that ' I can be anwhere on the face of this earth in 24 hrs' was used as a justification for M getting the Challenger.. and how he promised (and we saw a video of ONE ) Surprise Programmes.

I have been backstage with M on a number of occaisions, and the atmosphere is rather strained... at one in particular, I would almost say that he seemed to resent being there.

I caught his eye at one point, and what I saw was not a happy man.

There is no doubt that the psychology of performance does place a strain on the time before and after... actors and performers find their lives quite disturbed by the challenges and adrenaline of being exposed to so much attention. It makes normal, small relationships difficult... self conciousness (in a positive sense) accounts for much of the PRESENCE which maharaji has - and yet when the focus is removed and he is put into a social environment, he is clearly ill at ease, if not painfully shy.

He Feels he deserves the total limelight.. and so seeks it.

Now.. the fact that events are few in number, and reducing.. implies a few things.. either his NEED for Adulation has been compromised by bitterness, or drink, or perhaps that his Teaching was never really very important to him at all.. just being SEEN to be a wonderful teacher was enough...

either way it makes him visibly a very needy personality... and surely the foundation for great teaching must be selfless generosity.

If I was him, I would as it stands be getting tired of the game ... I appeal to him to remeber that a whole new game awaits.. one that doubtless scares the shit out of him.. the game where he opens himself to inspection.

The mechanics of a Guru is the only way he can take himself beyond blame.

Humility is needed, and great courage.

My suspicion is that M is in denial of his own psychology to some extent. His IDENTITY is overpowering, and he has played the HIGH STATUS card too long to give it up easily.

Trust your heart Maharaji. Dont be trapped in this cage of belief which will not let you question yourself.

other people do not question you.. they have looked to you for answers for soo long.. so of course you have to APPEAR strong, certain, in command... masterful.

But what their expectations of you have done, is to create a role for you that now you are trapped in. You perpetuated that Role because that was what we ALL wanted.. but now we dont want it any more.

People get hurt.

And perhaps the most distressing thing for you is to begin to realise, that YOU are actually not in charge at all. YOU cannot dictate to US how we should see you. You were always as much our puppet as our master.

So what next ?

Well there seem to be two options.. be defensive, close in upon yourself, retreat........ or open, become vulnerable.. and merge with the very ocean which created you.. the ocean of very Public attention.

I know why you are always shifting the blame onto your organisors... because deep down there is a little boy who, Rightfully feels... 'Its not my fault'

Its not your fault Maharaji. Its just gone too far and you didnt know how to stop it and save face.

Yikes I didnt really expect to be writing him an open letter - I guess its the memory of the look in his eye that day in Brighton.. like a hunted animal.

Also, for nearly 20 years I projected onto him the familiarity of my dearest friend.. well, my 'dearest friend' - i am not going to start treating you as my enemy now that the chips are down. I dont even want to see you suffer, because actually, and for once, the very admission and responsiveness which Ex premies seek is ALSO the best thing for YOU. I am concerned for your wellbeing, as I would be for anyone whose pain is actually what I need to see. Not for the sake of 'revenge' - but actually because my sense of Justice requires that the false God I worshipped be made human, vulnerable.. like me.

You have got 'beyond yourself' maharaji (as we say up North) - like macbeth you have seized something which was never yours...but now my Psyche, the rightful inheritor of my throne and crown has come to reclaim his kingdom.

I will not treat you as my enemy, unless you are, in truth, my enemy.

(By the way.. this is all written BEFORE I see the Atlanta Training Video - when I have watched it tomorrow I may have harsher words )

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:28:41 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Apologist?
Message:
I could never be as forgiving and understanding as yourself regarding Maharaji's role as master in my life and the resultant abuse and ill-considered advice that warped my existence as a consequence. Absolving Maharaji of any responsibility is to deny the facts as has been amply reported on the forum and the EPO site proper. I have no empathy for him whatsoever. He has lived high off the hog from the get-go, at our expense and servitude.

He was actually presented with the option of coming down off the throne and being one of us, several times, beginning with Mishler in the mid-70's, in 1983 when he closed the ashrams and in the early '90s. He intimated on one of these occasions that he wished to de-mystify himself and relate better to us, to be a teacher to a student. But always he has reverted to devotion and never doubting the purity of the Master. The old switch and bait, especially when coffers are low and you simply must have that $45 million plane and $7 million yacht.

Well, a case could be made for him being severely deluded by his upbringing, or a self-absorbed megolomaniac, but he has had plenty of time to consider his actions. Deny responsibility? No way. The buck always stopped at Maharaji. Not a leaf has moved without him knowing it - that much is true. He made it a requirement to sing Arti, he donned the Krishna garb, he sat while we kissed his feet. He is the one who harped on and on about devotion to the master, that we can't experience the knowledge but for his grace.

In a post to 'Harry' which has just fallen off the page, I outlined to him why I don't think Maharaji is worthy of our compassion:

If Maharaji is the compassionate and caring person you feel that he is then why would he let Jagdeo continue in his service all these years after being informed of his pedophilia? Why has he not dealt caringly and responsibly with Susan and Abi and others regarding this situation?

Where was Maharaji the concerned and loving master when he cut loose his ashram devotees but failed to speak to them directly about this action and offer assistance financially and socially. Many of these people had dedicated ten years of their lives to him - giving up on family, friends, career, concern about their own security because they trusted in him. They gave their all to him at his behest, where was he for them when he decided that the ashrams were no longer in his best interest?

Where was Maharaji's love and respect for his wife and his victims when he decided to have a string of extra-marital affairs? Where is it in his continued affair with Monica Lewis?

Where is Maharaji's respect and gratitude to all of us that helped build his empire? His profligate spending is an insult to every person who has donated money towards the cause of spreading knowledge.

His never-ending fundraising machine has been oiled and greased and re-tooled for so many 'new and improved' propagation schemes but where are the numbers to justify this on-going swindle? As you are well aware there are many less core members today than there was twenty years ago. How long will this charade be allowed to continue before the CEO gets up with his pie charts and bar graphs and illustrates just how effective these campaigns are? No, he wants us to trust him but there is absolutely no accountability on his part.

Well, I could go on, on a macro and micro scale, from participants in the DECA debacle - unpaid slave labour working ridiculous hours and inhaling dangerous chemicals to ready a plane that was obsolete even before it got off the ground to followers taking a few months off to work for free building the new residence and maharaji never deigning to even say hello to them.

I've no doubt that Maharaji can be nice to people that he chooses to. But on balance this forum and indeed the EPO site exists as a testament to the lack of responsibility and accountability from Maharaji. Where is Maharaji's actual love and respect towards his followers? Not just his words but in action. No amount of revisionist spin-doctoring and utter silence on Maharaji's part is going to alter this enormous deficit.

Most politicians and CEOs of corporations are advised that the best strategy with dealing with allegations of wrong-doing is to meet these allegations head on. To be forth-right and forthcoming about actions taken by individuals or the corporation itself regarding questionable activities. When this is done it steals the thunder of the detractors and saves the public face. If Maharaji is so concerned about propagation moving forward one would think he would do this. Or is he so insular and arrogant that he thinks the best policy is to simply put out videos placing blame for errors made on the followers themselves?

I rest my case. Be well, Pullaver.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:25:16 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Re: Apologist?
Message:
You finished with ..

Or is he so insular and arrogant that he thinks the best policy is to simply put out videos placing blame for errors made on the followers
themselves?

..........which i suspect is the truth. however, I am not going to be polarized by you or Jim into a pro or Anti maharaji stance.

I am dealing with my own reflections upon the nature of a devotional relationship which I had with a fictional and performed creature called maharaj Ji.

The real bloke was never really of interest.. the truth i suspect in these terms, for most of us, would be pretty damning.

What I am interested in is understanding what forces and patterns have manifested this not so divine game - and what they reveal about myself.

Prem Pal Singh Rawat is not really of any interest to me - but the nature of my relationship with the idolised maharaji is.... I see it more as defusing a bomb.

I dont hate him at the moment. In fact, I am enjoying the exiting process so much, that I am fucking glad I was IN, so that we could all have so much common ground to touch on.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:57:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: With you all the way, Pull
Message:
Very well written, too.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:59:37 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: I share your feeling [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 06:31:58 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Well spoken loaf,
Message:
You seem to have jumped right inside the inner workings and mechanics of the guru and disciple relationship here.

It really does work both ways, the master is as much dependent on the devotee as the devotee is on the master. Otherwise he becomes just another of the many shaman's sitting on the curbside with bowl in hand. Even then it's still basically the same game, the stakes are just different. Meager food and humble shelter instead of lavish wealth and conspicuous consumption.

M doesn't seem to be willing to clear the air on the way it works, so it is up to us to individually declare our equitable rights in the matter and collectively share our experience's of freeing ourselves from the trap. M is in the trap too because he is mired in his game of I am the master and you aren't, one can only imagine how deeply imbedded that rut runs.

For me this facade was fostered on the expectation that somehow someone or something else outside of myself could deliver or reveal to me my own personal spiritual fullfillment.

I used to believe that, now I no longer think so. I now say that no-one, no master, no teacher, no spiritual adviser, no person, or entity has the advantage or upper hand over anyone of us to experience anything greater than what we can do for ourselves.

A master, a guru, etc, is a big illusion, exploited and pertetrated onto the unknowing by the unknowing. By that I mean masters like m pretend to know something special to hook people in but he is as blinded by his followers as they are by him.

What seals the trap is the corrosion that sets in when over time as the veneer wears thin, the corruption becomes thick and encrusted and the hinges won't work, and it becomes excruciatingly difficult to get out. M says the door swings both ways, but there comes a time when the door is hard to move.

There is little to be gained in this type of relationship spiritual or otherwise. No one wakes up, no one realizes knowledge, the guru/master stays where he is and the devotee/servant stays where he is, what a drag, stagnant and stifled trapped in a lifelong cycle of ritual and ridicule.

Getting out of the cult and freeing myself from the emotional entanglement of M has enabled me to pursue my own sense of self awareness and awakening quite nicely on my own.

I came to M&K to find something, yet it was in leaving that I discovered what it was. It was me, my own pure self will, my own awareness, my own contentment, my own inner peace. Not dependent on guru, or master, no beliefs, no special knowledge, no religion, nothing to get hung up on.

And the journey continues

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 04:45:53 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Metal Guru
Message:
I have read your post 3 times now...and I like it more than ever.

Metal Guru... is it you ?

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:53:41 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Who ???? no not me [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:21:00 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: **Best Of Forum** thread
Message:
Now this the forum at it's best. Thanks to Vicki for putting forth the idea that M needs to be worshiped. Thanks to Steve's observations, Loaf's remarkable compassion and Brian's insights. These three posts represent incredible understanding of M & K.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:36:58 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Wow! Read this thread, people
Message:
Here is a best of, best of quote from Brian, for the Forum biz card, or the front page of EPO:

'I came to M&K to find something, yet it was in leaving that I discovered what it was. It was me, my own pure self will, my own awareness, my own contentment, my own inner peace. Not dependent on guru, or master, no beliefs, no special knowledge, no religion, nothing to get hung up on.

And the journey continues'

Very insightful everyone!

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:04:53 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: BART Simpson is a Scientoligist
Message:
Oh, this is truly a sad day.

Look what I found buried in an article about Scientology.

In Hollywood, Scientology has assembled a star-studded roster of followers by aggressively recruiting and regally pampering them at the church's 'Celebrity Centers,' a chain of clubhouses that offer expensive counseling and career guidance. Adherents include screen idols Tom Cruise and John Travolta, actresses Kirstie Alley, Mimi Rogers, and Anne Archer, Palm Springs mayor and performer Sonny Bono, jazzman Chick Corea and even Nancy Cartwright, the voice of cartoon star Bart Simpson.

*Note: Rank-and-file members, however, are dealt a less glamorous Scientology.
[ Scientology article ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 03:50:12 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: well sonny bono is dead
Message:
for all the good it did him...
hey, listen, i lived in Hollywood for a number of years (*shudder), and if you thin the maha runs a cult, you don't know fro nothin. Scientology has practically bought up Hollywood blvd and turned it into t heir own pseudo military HQ of the world. It's positivel bizarre to be out on the sidewalk, headed to the movies or the drugstore or the cafe, and see these strangely uniformed young men and women crisply, robotically stepping in groups on their way to some brisk meeting or cult business, every few blocks. At first you would take them for possibly pilots or airline steward personnel, in pale blue shirts with navy ties and navy trousers and skirts and little hats. then you might wonder if they're in the air force or navy or coast guaurd. insignia, braiding, little pins of rank, the whole schmiel. But no, they aren't.
Then as you get familiar with the boulevard, you realize they own the towering,old Bank bldg and have decked it out like a lifetime museum to L Ron, to draw in the naive tourists. And a few blocks down, another similar edifice, bought at bargain basement price when the neighborhood went into a depression, and that one is made over into yet another pompous memorial to pseudo grandiosity. And across the stret, a bookstore with uniformed greeters stopping strangers with dianetics personality tests, rigged thru and thru so you can't possibly test out to be clean and normal.

Go a few blocks north to the next big artery and you find the 6 story Celebrity Center, a former old age home that was bought out from under the geriatric longterm residents and converted into a hotel, for highrolling saps to be taken thru levels upon levels of endless deprogramming of their 'engrams' for higher and higher fees, until they reach the mythical 'clear' or Operating Thetan(OT's) level of supposedly godlike inability to be disturbed by anything human like feelings or reactions. All this priveleged teaching, courtesy of space beings who help only the very highest of the heirarchy. no one on the 'outside' is suposed to know about this.

oh dear.l but i do. and i just told. o my. are the space brothers gonna come and get me now?
(cue up x-files theme and fade to nauseating green)

you gotta see it to understand what i'm telling you here. the uniformed little martinets are everywhere. i have punky street friends who harass them when they see them, by promptly falling into formation in their tattoos and leather and body piercings and saluting them obscenely by thumping their chests in unison and shouting 'hail C-org! hail C-org!' like hitler youth at a rally. The uniforms never blink. they stride on by, proud that their engrams have been cleared so that they experience no distress at being mocked so blatantly in public.

yup. that was Hollywood when i left it a while back. Not what you see in the commercials, eh?

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:59:06 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: F7 Book Link (OT?)
Message:
Dear All, Since my recent arrival, I have observed a prediliction for certain reading matter.

I have attempted to write them down, to hopefully one day, facillitate my Healing.

I was pleasantly surprised by some earlier references to books regarding
Astronomy
Quantum Physics
Physics
String Theory
Ancient Root languages
Ancient Cultures
Genetics (as opposed to/ or in Synch with)
Creationist Theories
Scientific Fantasy (Funny how this always seems to become Reality)..just give it time.
and
Cult Revelations (being here now)

It appears to me that we had/have so many like minded avenues of understanding to explore.

Maybe I am not the Wally I thought I was.

We really were the Young, Bright , Hopefull generation.

I have moments of Brilliance that I live vicariously through people who actually persued this dream to the end .

Instead of laying it wasted at the alter of subservient grout cleaning with a toothbrush & patriachal mentalities.

Some of the Literature I have heard of here is:
Raven by Tim Reiterman?
Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan
The Guru Papers by Joel Kramer & Diana Alstad
Snapping by Flo Conway & Jim Seigleman
Feet of Clay by Anthony Storr
The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver
His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman
(this is a Trilogy)
Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore

The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins
The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins
The Feeling of What Happens by ?
The Evolution of Conciousness by ?
What makes you Tick by ?
Stress Relief by ?

I have not read any of these but I will.

Dear Big Sisters and Brothers, would it be possible to have these invaluable readings itemised in an easily accessable area for general perusal or printout.

Maybe headed under
Scientific
Humanistic
Spiritual...you know what I mean.
Thanks.
Bai more Books.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:04:13 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Reading...
Message:
Hi Bai Ji,

I left the cult about 1998, but I left the ashram in 1981 and there was a gap of time in between during which I lived and worked, and got married, while still believing. So I can't say I became an ex-premie until the late 90s.

I give you this background because one of the first things I did when I left the ashram back in '81 was to read. The first book I read (now don't laugh folks) was Stephen King's The Shining. It really didn't matter to me what I read at that point in my life because I had always been a voracious reader from early childhood, and I remember maharaji saying that reading was ''food the the mind.'' Guilt-free reading was quite important to me. I was also a special child, but my bio-Dad was such a freak that reading at home was a hidden practice, or be ridiculed and punished.

During that time away from m but still believing, I atet books whole. Sometimes I would read 3 to 5 books per week. I felt as if my brain and mind were information deprived and I was nurishing it again.

The books you listed above are mostly about cults and exiting cults. I keep a list of my own as they appear here. I just finishing Snapping and I said to myself, 'kay, enough cult material for now,' give me a good mystery.

So, Bai Ji, read whatever you want, read what makes your brilliant mind flourish, read, read, read. Re-energizing those brain cells, getting that wiring in the brains fired up is what's important.

''Bai more Books'' now that was funny!

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:57:57 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: F7 Book Link (OT?)
Message:
Hi Bai JI,
Okay, what's up? You have got to be one of the most intelligent writers on the Forum. Have you thought of going back to college to get any degrees? Honestly, your talents don't have to be lost to years with Maharaji. It's never too late and you'll probably find it easier being older. Somehow going to school at an older age is definitely easier.
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:42:16 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: PS
Message:

[ Yacco Wacco Dot ]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:35:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Well!!!
Message:
I don't know about better students. We (mature students) are better students because we want to be there and have more wordly knowledge to adhere the knowledge. But concentration is difficult, and we have a tendency to be perfectionists. Sometimes the profs may expect more from you because you're a mature student.

And Bai JI, if you're reading this: (you perceived the world as it is even through the cult glasses, it's there somewhere but it's there.

cheers

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:29:02 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: F7 Book Link (OT?)
Message:
Vicki, I thank you for saying that.
Personally I have no reference point on myself, I feel like the biggest stupidest loser on the planet.

At present, I have no desire for achievement or success.

I probably have huge abandonment issues and fear of Failure/Success.

You have Inspired and Encouraged me.

If you think I have it in me, then I will trust that, for now I have no true perspective of my own.

I have had to doubt and second guess myself for way too long to be able to let go and freely exhibit my Self, warts n' all.

I know that when I feel accepted, a flow of enjoyable intelligence follows.
Because i left school at such a young age , mainly in my persuit for the BIG answers, and also because I start my sentences with because, I did not receive the completion of a formal education.

I find mathematics and calculus, obtuse, and yet I can inhale Quantum Theory and somehow assimilate it cognitively.

I am obstructed though when it comes to conversing constructively with people about this.

I have always put it down to my 'Diss illusions of Grandeur'

Any way, apart from this all, Thank you.

I am empowered by your generous observations of me and I hold you dear in my heart.

Arte you available to go on my photo wall of Friends?
Thanks Vicki XXXX

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:43:25 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Hi Bai Ji
Message:
You just listed 90% of my preferred reading.

I will compile a bibliography for you regarding the upper list. One good book to put on that list is Carl Sagen's Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

cheers and thanks for your constructive ideas. It would be good to even have images of the books. Let's get that project on our to-do list.
[ Page Link ]
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:08:19 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Carl Sagan
Message:
Oh My God Deb.....
A Carl Sagan photo!!!!

I was laughing out aloud, as even before the text was clear, I felt I had a Compatriot.

He was such an inspiration to moi.

I remember viewing the series Cosmos and feeling so resonant with most of his perceptions.

I have read many of his scientific dissertations and of course his jointly written novel 'Contact' which became a movie featuring Jodie Foster as the central character

I was happy to see a scientist open to SETI and he spoke with such a Wierd NY accent.

I remember being laid up in bed after a dancing injury, (Cruciate ligaments ya Know) and writing him a letter, expressing how much I was inspired to follow my dreams of Astronomy from hearing him.

He died shortly after this and I subjugated all of my personal aspirations yet again, to persue the fulfilment of my Masters Supreme Goal for me.

I was deprived of the pusuit of all of the below

Astronomy
Physics
Beauty
Literature
Science
Motherhood
Friendship
Family
Career
Evolution
Basic Living Skills!!
Romance
Self Esteem
Dignity
Love
Oh I'm Geting angry now,
Thanks Deb, you are a woman after my own heart..

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:31:04 (EST)
From: Vicki the Nagging Mother
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Carl Sagan
Message:
Bai Ji,
If you don't knock it off I'm going to hunt you down like a rabid dog and drag you out into the sunshine. For the last time, YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL. There isn't one thing on this list that you can't have or do. My god, girl, your I.Q. must be astronomical. Mr. Maharaji didn't get your brain cells, he may have sidelined them for a while, but you are healthy, yes? You aren't physically limited?

You will never know what waits for you unless you take a little step and reclaim what you want. Just one, little, teeny thing. Go read Tasha Tudor's books and you'll see years mean nothing.

Now get out there and live a little, you brainiac, or else Wacco, Yacco and Dot will drag you off to their water tower and Aunt Slappy will have to give you some life lessons.

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:44:35 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Vicki the Nagging Mother
Subject: Re: What The.....
Message:
I can't Type, I'm laughing too much.

I have destroyed more braincells than i'll ever posess.

Give me a coupla weeks to shake this cult off and maybe then I can think straight.
Remember what I mean?

I'm still ouching.

Never got to use my inherent talents.
Never had them supported and recognised in his world.

You guys are Great.
And I am Listening to you.

See, I'm already posting like a fool.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:19:37 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Oh yes you did!
Message:
Never had them supported and recognized in this world?
_____

One thing I know for sure, Maharaji doesn't let stupid people around his family. He had you there exactly because of your capabilities, intelligence and fortitude. He was too smart to let you in on the secret because you might have had higher aspirations, then who was gonna help take care of the royal Rawats? Users know how to use.

I have no idea how you learned to write like you do. If you didn't go to school, you have one heck of a natural talent. Something magical happens when you tap into the talents you have and start using them for something outside of 'service'. It is completely healing and grows and grows. For its own sake. Not greed. I hope you heal soon and can begin to enjoy your own special self. Heaven knows the Forum is that much richer for having you here.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:36:02 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Oh yes you did!
Message:
I thank you if you appreciate anything i have written here.

Please let me be clear.

I have no formal education to speak of.

I was taught to read before i could walk due to the efforts of my father, who died before i turned 5. Hence my ripenes for a substitute teacher.

I am really quite stupid as i tend to believe everyone and everything that comes before me, see naieve.

I stil hold to the premise that all beings are intrinsically good, just shit happens to them.

Yhis could well prove to be my demise.

Well, so be it.
Inshalla

I'm pretty stupid for someone who is so smart.
Love Stephen J Hawkins esq

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 03:33:01 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Stupid is just another word for lack of confidence
Message:
"What happens to the rat that stops running the maze?
The doctors think it's dumb when it's just disappointed." - Mark Eitzel

Well, you've tipped your hat. Read up on the characteristics of the gifted on this site. The fact that you learned to read so early, have an outstanding vocabulary, write like a pro, leap frog in higher mathematics and have incredible insight plus a quest to understand the workings of life, lead me to believe you fall into the gifted category. It is not something to be taken lightly, or dismissed as 'egotistic'. Giftedness comes with a price tag, namely extreme sensitivity and often a complete lack of confidence in oneself. If it is not properly taken care, the gift becomes an albatross (sp). Let me just say, if you were one of my little tutoring students, all the red flags would be up, and I haven't been wrong yet in identifying a gifted individual.

I don't think we were stupid dedicating our lives to such a genuine endeavor as following the lord of the universe. It is/was the highest aspiration a human being can undertake, really. We were duped. Simple as that, it doesn't make us idiots. In my book, there is only one big idiot, and that is someone who would take a human heart and lie the biggest of all lies.

The more learned individuals here, like Pat C, Anth, Scott could properly identify the poet, but didn't e cummings start sentences with 'Because'?

Other sites:
http://www.nfgcc.o

http://www.kidsource.com/kidsource/content/giftedness_and_gifted.htmlrg/
[ check it out ]

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:29:17 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Not deprived any longer :)
Message:
Go for it! I went back to school at 34/35. It's been ten years now.

I was so thirsty for real knowledge that I take twice as many courses in a California Jr. College than I needed for my degree. If one was good, five were better. That's where I got my basic Astronomy understanding. I had a fantastic teacher, who also loved Carl Sagan. I called him shortly after Sagan died. We shared our grief.

Hey, if you had my geology prof at this college, you would have that on your list as well. THis guy was awesome. I'm so glad I have a roster of real teachers who really inspired me.

I want to work on a BSc in Astronomy after my current degree. However, I might to a year diploma in ESL (15 unit post-grad course). I could make money doing ESL while pursuing other interests.

Call your local college and ask for a Summer catalogue. Take one course in any of those topics and enjoy the rest of your life.

M is going to pay for his cult programming. Trust me. That will fast forward the healing. And meanwhile, you have us, to help you deprogram and initiate some healthy life choices.

So, take a course and we'll talk about it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:52:54 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Brava Deborah,Thanks (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 22:15:25 (EST)
From: pullaver
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: thanx 4 compiling book list (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:36:31 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: pullaver
Subject: Pull up to my Bumper Baby
Message:
No Worries Pullaver, Thank You for all of the help that you have given me,
Your Insightful writings have made me Laugh, Cry and Heal.
Love BaiXXX
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:07:59 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: So there you have it!
Message:
I read all the posts about my nasty little pic, and to tell you the truth, Jim, and Sir dave are the only ones that truly got anything right out of the whole thing. Moley! You attacked my character first back at AG. Plain and simple. Sir dave is right the whole sex violence thing is a fable. No proof to that at all.
I will put my money on someone who worked in the industry over you anyday. Down below in F7 you propose to know what the girl in my pick is feeling, thinking, ect...Poor girl you said! Right? Made to have sex on film for money. Who the fuck do you think you are to say what shes feeling. I personally knew a girl who worked in porn and could get enough of the money, fucking, and yes even 3 or 4 guys at once. She also had a boyfriend who was tottaly cool with it because he knew the sets were safe and screened for wackos way before filming took place etc...

You remind me of a Christian. Always telling people what others are going through.

have you done porn? No? so shut up.

That pic was not meant just for you when I posted it. And yes your opinions are worth while, but when you attack my character right away...well you only propose to know what I'm feeling. Is that fair?

I know you don't care, because I've just read all your posts. And your tripping all over yourself like crazy. To bad nobody else seems to see it.

Me? I don't care how you feel at this point, let alone propose to know.

And all the rest of you? If you want me gone - I'm gone. Post away...Yay or Nay.

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:56:26 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Go Away NOW! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:35:36 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: So there you have it!
Message:
Dear Barry, Hi mate...I am sorry you feel you have been unjustly attacked.

Please understand though, that this is not just a social gathering, like a chat room or club, purely for the sake of human contact, although it does fulfill that purpose well.

The people here have been participants in a lie that has permeated their beings to a cellular level.
The devastation experienced, is tantamount for some, to being violated in the extremest manner possible.

Recovering from the insidious fallout of this revelation, may take years and a courage required that is second to none.

If you care to take the time to absorb the shattered lives contained within the archives, you may have a fully dimensional understanding of our current postings.

Even though, I do understand your confusion at the less than welcoming response to your efforts to make us all laugh with the postings you have sent.

I, for one am here for a life/death, (in moments this has not been melodramatic) reason.

If you are not a Premie/expremie, please consider that hundreds of people are reading here too afraid to submit on this page, but having their whole universe deconstructed as we speak.

Off Topic or even on Topic discussions can sometimes serve to hinder people who have come here in desperation. Much as someone may go to Emergency at the hospital having their life flash before their eyes, only to find the staff swapping dirty jokes and light hearted banter with each other.

In My experience, In m's world,I was always extremely shy about weighing anyone down with my problems.

A) I didn't feel I had the right to have any.
B) I didn't want to burden anyone.
C) Unspoken Pressure to appear 'Together' or be deemed a Bongo

The suffering in silence results in an Ocean of Tears that sometimes seems far deeper and greater than the Ocean of Maya that I started out to cross by m's grace all those years ago.

Please come here with an understanding of this.

The main contributers here have grown a bit stronger since their departure and they are very protective of us newbies.
Something for which I am extremely grateful.

I hope you can understand...Read all you can.
It requires a dedication to wade through it all, but hey the energy that the people here on this forum, directed towards Maharaji and this Knowlege would do Nicolai Tesla proud.

Go well & be Real
Love Bai Ji XXX

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:25:42 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Thank you. That was refreshing.(nt)
Message:
no joke.
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:06:54 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Wow Bai Ji! Amazing Grace!
Message:
Bai Ji,
That is one of the warmest, kindest, eminently compassionate, exceedingly diplomatic responses I have ever seen in my life. You are truly a saint. If you were standing before me I would pranam to you just to show my respect for your magnificent, anger-disolving, hate-defusing, exquisitely loving heart. Boliye Bai Ji Ki Jay!!!
In comparison, you make the angels themselves seem more like M's SS-net-nazis. I hope I get to meet you one day, you truly blessed lady. NEVER EVER EVER put yourself down. You have a wealth that the wealthiest of the wealthy would envy if they knew about it. Bless you, dear lady! Bless you!
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:00:56 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Stevie Ji..
Message:
I am crying AnandaJi, It is so hard going through all of this.
I truly am comforted by your letter.

I wish we all just lived around the corner and could go to the pub for a universal Latvian Nite.

I know we all have our human foibles and would end up picking on each other eventually, but didn't we all hold such high hopes for our fucked up selves?

Didn't m catalyse those hopes and dreams and now aren't we reconnecting with each other in a way that i know I've missed for a long, long time?

Pictures Please, I need my new family close to me.

Well only if your're brave enough to post it here.
I'm not ready yet.
One day soon though.
You break my Heart.
Love Bai Ji

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:23:58 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Bai Ji
Subject: (Personal to Bai Ji)
Message:
(StevieJi is not Anandaji - he's the other recent Twin Cities ex who has been on F7 but not recently).
We have an excellent scanner. Send me your email address and I'll try to get a picture back to you, if you want. Bai the Way - you are one wonderful lady (and I am one nauseating pun-freak).
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 00:49:28 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Gotcha Stevie.Ta Luvvie (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:26:37 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: I agree.(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:09:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: suffering in silence - Nicely said Bai Ji [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:31:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, Listen to your friend, Jim...N/T [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:27:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Face it, Bar, you can never fit in here
Message:
Barry,

The forum can never really be a fit for you as it is for us. Even when we're joking around, we all have this common junk that we went through, fought out from underneath and still want to talk and look at. There's always that gravitas and commonality between us. You, on the other hand, have just the natural curiosity and bemusement one would expect of someone who never took the tour himself -- lucky you -- but has a couple of friends who did. Your inclination, therefore, would be to always pull towards the nether regions of 'OT'. We keep pulling back to ...um... the other 'OT'. I just don't see how you can ever feel like you fit in here.

But I know you. Like me, you like to fool around and you also like a certain amount of attention. But, Barry, you're bound to be ignored here at times, not for anything personal, but just because you're so, so, how can I say it? So OT?

Look, you know that I think Moley et al. are wrong about porn but, really, who cares? We're bound by a much bigger sense of history and maybe even mission to hash it out all that seriously. Anyway, we do have this common stuff to keep coming back to. You don't, however. Consequently, I just don't see how you could ever be happy here or, if you were, how it wouldn't always be with some people wondering, fairly or not, what the hell this guy's doing here. What could anyone say? 'Oh, he's just Jim's friend. He likes to post here, fool around a bit.' No one else brings their friends, Bar. (Probably because THEY DON'T HAVE ANY, THE LOOSERS! but that's a different story). Friends are for leaving at home.

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:29:14 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fine! But Moley is still a bitch....
Message:
for the original attack.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:48:41 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Barry
Subject: A *very* telling choice of phrase..
Message:
What does your girlfriend think of these discussions? (Or you haven't you inflated her yet..?) Is she with with you all the way? Yeah, sure she is. Why not bring her in on things? (After all, you don't have to be a ex-cultist to disrupt an ex-cult forum.)

But stop yer fucking blubbering for christ's sake. Big baby. If you can't stand the heat, as they say, then don't post porn on a public forum - expecially pictures of gang rape for the titilation of right-hand men.

A disturbingly large number of ex-premie women have been raped. Think about that. Imagine if it were you, your mum or your sister? Still funny?

Like Moley, I don't think there is any subject unsuitable for humour - but pictures are different, and I didn't notice anything particularly funny about that picture. Even jokes about rape - well, I guess there may be occasions where they might just be appropriate or even funny - well, I can't think of one right now...

(You could make some pretty cool jokes about decapitated children in Rwanda, I daresay, but should we all start posting our favourite snaps here?)

Anyway, this discussion - or Moley's objection - was not about porn per se (Sir Dave, please note). It was certainly, in part, about a specific, exploitative kind of porn - but that is obviously lost on too many here to be worth further pursuing. The real point is, aside from the morality or otherwise of pornography, you should bloody-well not go posting it in public places where it is neither expected nor welcome. Do you send this stuff out in the mail, too?

(And if you knew Moley, the last insult you would ever choose would be 'prude'. I could tell you some stories...)

Moley's 'attack' in question comprised a few sharpish personal comments, the like of which you clearly enjoy when Jim or others use them when aimed at cult-members (eg. 'puerile excuse for a brain'). As a result you are so mortally damaged you have to do a big drama-queen exit...?

Good. Fuck off, why don't you? And maybe show a bit of respect to the women exes you have upset and try apologising on the way out.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:54:20 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Damn well said, Nigel
Message:
I won't respond here as it's OT.
[ For Moley and Nigel on Sat Chit-chat Forum. ]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:43:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks Nige, you're a sweetheart... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 21:11:50 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's nice, Jim. Thanks [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:26:22 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: So there you have it!
Message:
No I did not propose to know what that particular woman was feeling (you, apparently, don't know either). I was making a general observation.

And I merely talked to you in the same kind of language used everyday on AG etc (though it was on Sat Chit as I keep telling you).

I think everyone is getting sick of this stuff Barry. I'll talk to you elsewhere if you like, but not here.

Good bye

Moley

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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 23:30:32 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: They will all see you soon for what u are.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:57:03 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Barry
Subject: Been looking in the mirror, have we?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 29, 2002 at 20:20:00 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: No. But don't continue this Bar
Message:
This forum has a particular purpose and your language and topic will be very offensive to some. Keep in mind what purpose we serve here.

Now AG is where this post should be. Your cartoons and comments about posts are welcome. But the OT post went way to far. You had made your point on AG.

Deb

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