OTS -:- The Yorem Weiss Show -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:26:30 (EST)

__ Nick -:- One important error -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Wonderful post, OTS... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:55 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Re: Wonderful post, OTS... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:45 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Fakiranization -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:00:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gurucharanandization -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:07:03 (EST)

Vicki -:- Spelling (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:03:05 (EST)

__ Stonor -:- Re: Spelling (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:04:42 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Reading (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:49:09 (EST)

__ The foremost authority -:- on reading -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:14:30 (EST)

Ed -:- Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:42:00 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Welcome Ed... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:47:06 (EST)

__ PatC -:- and my apologies to you, Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:23:38 (EST)

__ __ Ed -:- Re: and my apologies to you, Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:34:16 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Email whenever you want, Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:40:48 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Thanks Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:13:22 (EST)

__ __ Ed -:- Re: Thanks Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:27:17 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Names and faces -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:06:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Ed -:- Re: Thanks Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:07 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:54 (EST)

__ __ Ed -:- Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:06:45 (EST)

__ Lookie Lou -:- Did you contact Gerry? [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:49:23 (EST)

__ __ Ed -:- Re: Did you contact Gerry? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:15 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Did you contact Gerry? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:01:43 (EST)

New person -:- GERRY! FA: Check your email -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:38:00 (EST)

Jim -:- The Hidden Enemy of Doubt -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:22:22 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- Yeah but -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:43:13 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Grumble all you want, Dermot... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:03:11 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Addendum -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:23:59 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Language usage -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:40:58 (EST)

gerry -:- Y'all realize of course... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:11:49 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:01:54 (EST)

__ __ Nick -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:15:40 (EST)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- **Great post Nick** -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:40:47 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Wonderful post. Thanks, Nick [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:25:29 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:49 (EST)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:10:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Email from trolls pretending to be exes -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:35:19 (EST)

WPC girl -:- Hi , I'm new here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:42:40 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Re: Hi , I'm new here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:21:43 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Welcome to F7 -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:20:22 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Welcome to F7, WPC girl -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:40:38 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Welcome, WPC girl -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:17:21 (EST)

__ Kelly -:- Re: Hi , I'm new here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:53:16 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- Hello and welcome [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:07:02 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Welcome WPC girl... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:23 (EST)

Zoey -:- Flushed the pills. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:20:35 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Nice post, Zoey. Thanks [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:42:57 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Do I know you? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:57:57 (EST)

__ Bai Ji -:- Oh Hi Welcome, Zoey (loft?)... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:27:19 (EST)

Jethro -:- To Quiet: from thread below -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:52:44 (EST)

__ Quiet -:- Re: To Quiet: from thread below -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:06:44 (EST)

__ __ Jethro -:- Re: To Quiet: from thread below -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:32:13 (EST)

Tim Matheson -:- Is Tim Gallwey embarrassed by LORD MAHARAJI -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:00:46 (EST)

__ Peg -:- embarrassment -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:38 (EST)

janet -:- look, Quiet... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:23:37 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: look, Quiet... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:46:47 (EST)

__ __ Diz -:- Studying with dyslexia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:53:30 (EST)

__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Studying with dyslexia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:12:33 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Diz. Nicely said. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:58:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Drop It Quiet, Be a bit Quiet...Love to You(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:21:18 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- Please Guys, Would you Please.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:48:37 (EST)

__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Please Guys, Would you Please.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:50:27 (EST)

__ Stevie Ji -:- Nice job, Bai Ji, You did it again -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:47:55 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Well said, Bai Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:54:08 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- total agreement here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:52:26 (EST)

__ __ Kelly -:- 'Back Passages' LOL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:31:56 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: 'Back Passages' LOL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:48:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- The KIT training -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:03:51 (EST)

__ __ Bai Ji -:- Hi Loafi Ji... Hurts don't it?.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:17:48 (EST)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Hi Bai JI... Hurts don't it?.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:54:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Thank you Kelly, I shall talk with you (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 08:45:03 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Loafi Ji and Bai Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:42:07 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Yes, you're entitled -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:03:07 (EST)

__ __ __ Gail -:- OOOPS, Sorry -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:24:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ salsa -:- shut up, u both -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:59:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- Ok -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:39:52 (EST)

__ __ __ Calling Gerry -:- Time for another deletion? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:28:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Time for another deletion? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:05:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thank you, Livia. Well said! [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:27:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Anandaji -:- This thread reminds me... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:06:16 (EST)

Joe -:- Email Address for TIM GALLWEY? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:18:17 (EST)

__ McDuck -:- tg@theinnergame.com -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:25:45 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Thank you -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:57:25 (EST)

__ __ McDuck -:- Funny, -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:44:13 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Yes it is, isn't it???? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:51:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Yes, you would -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:14:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Yes, you would -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:12:30 (EST)

__ Livia -:- Re: A sujestion -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:39:56 (EST)

__ __ Bai Ji -:- Thanks Livia... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:00:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Livia -:- Calling Bai Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:15:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Calling Bai Ji and Livia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:35:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Why would anyone take you seriously, Quiet? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:17:07 (EST)

Relayed from EV UK email listing -:- Special Update -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:36:39 (EST)

__ La-ex -:- Hey, they stole that from me!! -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:12:30 (EST)

__ __ la-ex -:- Of course, Yorum's in the picture too..nt -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:15:35 (EST)

__ The Maharaji of Malibu's -:- Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$ -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:07:41 (EST)

__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$ -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:16:45 (EST)

__ ChrisP -:- Re: Special Update -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:53:33 (EST)

__ __ Bai Ji -:- Warm Welcome CP.. You are Welcome (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:01:49 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Warm Welcome CP.. love your sense of humor [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:44:49 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- the cult has toasted you? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:10:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Eric -:- Re: the cult has toasted you? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:51:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- lol, Eric. As it happens ... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:14 (EST)

__ __ __ ChrisP (the other Chris) -:- LOL :) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:42:52 (EST)

__ cq -:- M's *'FRESH'* approach ??? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:06:44 (EST)

Sulla -:- February Scheduled Satellite etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:54:30 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- M's favor to women -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:53:38 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Yep -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:11:46 (EST)

__ __ Or Call It -:- 'Drool From The Master's Mouth' (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:36:47 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- Well, if, as Anth is always telling us - -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:38:06 (EST)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- In the drivels' repository -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:49:54 (EST)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- Please read your mail nt -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:59:49 (EST)

210 -:- rawat's cult -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:11:03 (EST)

__ cq -:- 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:05:03 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- Re: 'logic is worthless' ? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:11:02 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Re: 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:08:03 (EST)

housemum -:- OTS's post from below inserted here -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST)

__ janet -:- denver residence -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:22:59 (EST)

__ __ Flashback -:- You already met her before -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:30:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Basic Truth -:- Real Version -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- A few more missing pieces -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:33 (EST)

__ __ Dave Punshon -:- The Producers -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:50:07 (EST)

__ __ __ berni -:- ***FUNNIEST OF FORUM***** -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:18:57 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- M urban legend # 29 -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:59:44 (EST)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hosting M's urban legends -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:09:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- M's Urban legend Ulcer cause -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:10:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I hate to say this - but you're wrong -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:34:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ someone who remembers -:- You're right Dave -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:24:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- God, they even revise the urban ledgends [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:41:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Lol Brian [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:01:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Re: M's Urban legends--speaking of which -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:01:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- cause I've eaten to much sweets (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:52:55 (EST)

__ __ Livia -:- Re: denver residence -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:57:51 (EST)

__ __ __ Gregg -:- Re: mystical experience -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:59:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- Maharaji protects rapist Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EST)

__ __ __ To Livia -:- They were both horney for each other -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:09:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: They were both horney for each other -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:15:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Gail -:- Dear Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:02:41 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- You're fine Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:43:58 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- I had one too livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:59:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:22:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:25:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Bravo! I knew you could do it, Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:19:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JS -:- Re: I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 08:50:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Have you posted here before? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- to all of you -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:38 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- So whatcha got to add to that??t?? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:15:40 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- i'm winging this part -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:01:03 (EST)

__ Ulf -:- LOL... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:13:48 (EST)

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:26:30 (EST) From: OTS Email: None To: All Subject: The Yorem Weiss Show Message:

Having studied Judaism in my youth for many years, when Guru Maharaji came along, simultaneous with the fading out of the radical left and anti-war movement in America in the early 70s and the rise of heavy metal music, I was just so ripe that part of my faith which promised Jews that their savior will come seemed to be answered for me by his arrival in the West. “He’s Here and Now,” as I believe the early DLM advertising campaign shouted. Remember we were made to go into neighborhood stores in the early 70s and ask for permission to please put up these huge ugly weird posters in the storefront windows with Maharaji’s full figure in Indian whites against a blue sky background with starts and planets trumpeting that He is Here and Now, or some such other bullshit. I was just so convinced that he was it -- the Savior come in human form to save mankind from its selfishness and fast food and cultural void and generational divide. I was convinced for nearly 30 years, until I saw the real light -- M’s contamination of his mission and his lust for material things. I replaced my waning faith in all things Jewish with the fascinating bright light of the arti candle and a bunch of Hindu bullshit as taught by the psycho representatives of the Living Lord himself -- the imported Indian Mahatmas. I just didn’t know it -- for almost 30 years -- that this was just prime bullshit. They showed us how to bow down and prostrate -- completely foreign to my religious upbringing. How to pray to and how to worship a living person (only he was the Living Lord and he knew everything and was all-powerful). We obeyed the intense instructions of the Mahatmas regarding how to behave and act and furnish our ashrams and homes and surrender and pray and and eat and clean and just every fucking thing else. They were heavy duty and their authority commanded total respect from everyone. Here’s an example of how we learned about proper etiquette in decorating: Quoting Mahatmaji now: “Are you insane? Hunh? You have hung up this picture of our Most Wonderful Lord, Shri Guru Maharaji, without a white cloth behind it? Are you totally Crazgy? You must fix this at once.” This was the same nut who used to wonder off all night every night from where he had placed his shoes time after time in Indian railway stations where for hours on end he would sing verse after verse from the Hindu scripture “The Ramayana” prior to and after he received Knowledge from Maharaji. He was called a Ramayani. He forgot and lost his shoes regularly. He was just too gone. [Know anyone in high school like that? I doubt it.] This same “saint” later allegedly beat a man in America with a real hammer on top of his head and the man required a metal plate in his skull for life. This was in retaliation for the man having tossed a shaving cream pie in the face of the “Lord.” The Jews had an “eye for an eye” as their justice standard. This Mahatma had another standard all together. He was hurried out of the country and permanently retired as an “instructor” of M’s. The damage was done, however. Too late. You can never un-ring a bell or un-bash a skull. I was in favor of this punishment for many years, but have repented myself. I bought the entire package and program. Went to Guru Puja in Montrose, Colorado and Hans Jyanti in India in 1972, moved into the ashram FOR LIFE (what happened there?) at the end of the year. Did it all. Went everywhere. All my friends got Knowledge; we were all blissed out at events, satsangs, special Mahatma programs, trainings, meetings, service opportunities, etc.. We just bought it all. We were stupid and didn’t do our homework. And now the truth seems to be trickling out. Unbiased. Naked. For year after year after year, we went with the once-again new spin, new style, new language, new terms, new teams, new attitude. Nothing ever succeeded. It’s still changing today. Yorem Weiss (I thought Eric’s name for him below was LAUGH OUT LOUD funny) would come to my town once or twice a year (for the past 15 years and in the same clothes and I never missed him hearing him speak once) and beg for our money to be sent in. But there was never any truth from him, you could just tell. His smile was too fake. He always had a sugar-coated truth to tell. Nothing was EVER wrong. He always put a positive spin on everything. I knew because some of the stories he told about M were second-hand to Yorem, but first-hand to me. And I used to see how he would twist the facts to make a better story -- more maudlin, more precious, more priceless -- but I knew the real facts of the matter, and saw how he twisted and shaded the truth. So, as for the many many other stories of which I had no first-hand knowledge, I began to doubt more and more and more, year after year after year. He’s just dishonest. His rap about Amaroo for the past 12 years has been just a snake oil salesman at his best. He’s starting again with his new round of explanations and bullshit starting in England next week to separate the premies from their money. It’ll never end. He’s so full of shit. People and women just kiss his ass because of his position. It’s rather sickening. He has climbed to the top and promotes climbing by others (even if they have to stomp all over others to get there). I hope he wakes up one day and just leaves. There is no closer PAM than Yorem, and this former Israeli army fighter is just the cog in the wheel that makes us all so sick. He spews crap everywhere he goes. He stinks and I wish he’d just cop to the truth once in his life.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST) From: Nick Email: None To: OTS Subject: One important error Message:

Hi OTS As I wrote her a while ago, the general understanding in the States and Canada is that Fakiranand was retired straight after the Pat Halley incident. In fact, he was flown to Switzerland where he toured around as a fully fledged mahatma for several months leading up to Millenium, spreading his terrifying brand of obsessive devotion to m. No-one there knew what he had done with the hammer - I spent many weeks driving him around and looking after him, and was not given not the slightest hint of how dangerous he was. Yet again, this represents to a clear indication that m really has never cared for his premies and only cares about fulfilling his own self-serving mission at any cost.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:55 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: OTS Subject: Wonderful post, OTS... Message:

Thank you for that. Welcome back, too. I'm hoping you'll post more and more. Sounds like you have good stories to tell. This is the place. Btw, I remember being told by Mahatmas to 'never put a picture of mahaha on the floor.' I never have met Weiss, but I've encountered many premies like him. Money grubbing liars they are. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:45 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Wonderful post, OTS... Message:

I agree. LOL about Fakiranand. The day I received K, afterward I went to the bathroom and up to the next stall comes Mr Beggar of Bliss himself. I had put my commandments and photo of GMJ on the sink while I wizzed so mahatma Ji picked it up with great reverance and admonished me to never put M's picture down but always hold it in my hands. Err, how am I supposed to .... oh, never mind. Yes mahatma ji

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:00:01 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Fakiranization Message:

I remember in the ashram once we prepared for Fakiranand to arrive. Cloths were put behind every picture on the wall, a cloth under every picture on a table, etc. After a couple of days we were sure the ashram was fully 'Fakiranized' (actual term we used). Anyhow, I remember when the psycho actually arrived, he looked like the robot in Terminator, with eyes darting, x-raying the place until he found something 'wrong' which he did, eventually, and went into a tirade about it. He did not, however, punish anyone with a hammer to the skull. It was psychological torture he inflicted as punishment.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:07:03 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Gurucharanandization Message:

Gurucharnand has this image as just a sweet guy and he rambles on endlessly in the Passages video, now with some gray hair. But he seemed to be a bit particular about food. I remember one time he wanted carrot juice, and I dutifully went to the ashram kitchen, allowed to enter because I had 'serice for Mahatama Ji', carefully cleaned and scrubbed organic carrots and juiced them so perfectly. When I brought Charanand the carrot juice he asked if they had been peeled, and I said no, because that's where all the vitamins are. He THREW the juice back at me, spilling some and screamed: 'That's also where all the DIRT is!!' I slunk away and made carrot juice after peeling them, but even then, I thought about just putting the old juice in a new glass and telling him I had peeled them, but I was afraid I would go to hell, I guess. Like some of the other mahatmas, he would only eat white rice, white bread, and white sugar, because they were "clean."

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:03:05 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: Spelling (OT) Message:

This is not an endorsement for or against any particular poster. I would like to add my opinion about spelling, since it is tied closely to what I do, and that is remediate children in reading. California experienced a reading crisis about five years ago, when the standardized testing results came in under then governor Wilson. The tests had been suspended for a couple of years, so it was indeed a rude shock to find out California's students had plummetted to second from the bottom in national reading scores. A summit was called, spearheaded by a little, itty bitty grandmother who had had enough. She brought it the foremost research authorities from around the country to testify at the state capital. The long and short is, systematic, explicit phonic instruction had been taken out of school curriculum and replaced with whole language. Whole language is a system whereby the student is taught to memorize sight words in their entirety and reading will just magically evolve without skill based instruction. This was done in the years around 1985. If you do the math, you will see these kids are now in college. The colleges know there is a huge problem with reading and spelling and writing. Allowances are made. It's shocking. Legislation was passed in California mandating the implementation of systematic, explicit phonic instruction. Funding was allocated to the tune of at least $200 million dollars. I gave up counting. Publishing companies threatened to sue the state because they had whole language books, as requested by the state, on their hands. To avoid litigation, phonics was sprinkled in until the next adoption. This process has taken years. No funding was allocated to the millions of older children who had already been harmed. Instead, the state focused on k-3 grade, starting fresh with these kids. It's been a battle, not unlike a religious war. Phonics vs whole language is a heated debate. Even in the face of research involving millions of children around the country, led by the top brains in this country, whole language people will not give up their stance. Some have gotten very rich, obscenely rich, by inventing programs based on whole language, to remediate kids that were damaged by whole language. These are the children and teenagers I work with. The spelling is the hardest thing to correct. Spelling is a harder skill to acquire than reading. The reason I'm going into this is, there may be lurkers who are afraid to honestly post because there is no spell check function on the forum. I myself, computer novice that I am, have no idea how you guys write on word then bring it over here. I know I misspell words occasionally, and if I wasn't so lazy I'd look them all up in the dictionary. Sometimes I'm so jazzed about a revelation, I get carried away. These kids are everywhere now. You'll find them at the video stores, book stores, on directory assistance, etc etc etc. They can't spell worth a darn. Our tolerance and patience would be greatly appreciated in many circumstances. Mostly I find these kids feel dumb enough as it is. It wasn't their fault. It was the state of California's, along with the other states in these United States of America and many countries around the world who dropped phonics instruction for whole language. New Zealand, Austrailia, the UK were especially hard hit.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:04:42 (EST) From: Stonor Email: stonor21@hotmail.com To: Vicki Subject: Re: Spelling (OT) Message:

Hi Vicki, I don't know you well, but I have to ask you to email you - this is my field as well. I'm currently working on the curriculum reforms for adult education for the Ministry of Education in the Province of Quebec - English sector. I know well the situation you describe so unusually well, and would love to keep in touch with you with regards to this. I would be interested to hear what resources/materials you are using, and your opinion on 'dyslexia'. Won't go into too much here, as I'm not an ex - emails with a premie landed me here a couple of years ago - long story. You can email Gerry if you want to check me out. Wrt the situation here, it is also important to remember that a few people are speakers of ESL, which is at least as complex a problem as mother tongue speakers without explicit phonics. Thank you for raising these points - it saddens me when people are labeled in a negative way just because of bad spelling, or grammar. The situation of exes, or those in the process of leaving is too serious for this kind of petty judgemental attitude, IMO. Anna

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:49:09 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Reading (OT) Message:

Vicki, I agree we shouldn't get on people for spelling errors. We all do it. I think the recent discussion was about someone who was pretending to spell incorrectly for effect. True, California dropped to the bottom in reading under Wilson and Deukmejian, but most people will tell you that wasn't due to teaching whole language, it's because under Wilson and Deukmegian per-student funding also dropped to the bottom and stayed there for years. I think California was 49th out of 50 in funding levels. The result was large classes, poorly trained and paid teachers, lack of materials, poor curriculum development, etc. Phonics is fine, but I object when some claim that all we need to do is change the method of teaching, without appropriate funding, and everything will be fine. Just like those who say if we just test everyone everything will improve. That's nonsense. Whole language does work, but it doesn't work if the whole system is falling apart, and it doesn't work for every kid. Phonics also works, but it doesn't work for every kid either. Teachers need to be able to use whatever tool works best for the kid and mandates either way are just interjecting politics into the system. Now, it appears we begin teaching kids to pass a test, and the test often doesn't relate to what kids are actually taught. And then there's all the inequity in the schools between poor and rich districts. Don't even get me started on the 'Texas experience.' Under Davis things are better, I think we are 37th in funding now, and the voters wisely trounced that stupid voucher idea, but it takes time to correct the underfunding.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:14:30 (EST) From: The foremost authority Email: None To: Vicki Subject: on reading Message:

[ Dr. Lyon ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:42:00 (EST) From: Ed Email: None To: All Subject: Sort of an Apology to ALL Message:

First let me state that I am 'NOT' a troll. The question that I raised yesterday that may have disrupted this forum was a sincere one, and I apologize for not e-mailing Gerry directly about it. I too, still do stupid things in my life. What I won't apologize for though is my more than normal distrust these days of everything I see and hear. Can anyone relate to this? Being an ex-premie has a way of doing this to you. I received knowledge in 1974, and left in the late 80's after years of feeling like I was a part of Hitler's SS. What I mean by that is I was a part of 'M''s secret security team known as 'Roving Security' for all the years I was involved. All of you have seen me at one time or another while you were going through the darshan line as you approached 'M''s feet. My job was to deter any real or perceived threats to 'M'. So in my own perverse way, I feel I know each and every one of you. I've been lurking in this forum for a long time without feeling the need to post, but when I heard the possibility of 'M' being exposed through the media it got me excited and caused me to post. I really felt that whatever the medium was, at least it's a start and should not be ignored. When my post was deleted, I felt slighted and figured that everyone was just waiting for Tom Clancy to come to this forum and then write his next best seller. Sorry for the sarcasm, but that's just how I feel right now.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:47:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Ed Subject: Welcome Ed... Message:

Dear Ed, It's unfortunate that you had a difficult start here, and I understand your anger about it. It takes a lot of courage to read here then take that plunge to post only to be deleted. I participated in that thread about NE, and well, sometimes Gerry has to do what he has to do. The deletion wasn't about you, there were other issues involved. What you said about distrust as an ex-premie is very true. A bit of paranoia too? Hmmm? It's normal. Maybe if you email the folks who offered here you will feel a bit more trusting. Richard is a wonderful guy--you probably know eachother and have friends in common from the cult. I do thank you for your frankness and hope you will post more, tell us about your experiences in the m cult, and start to feel comfortable. Pull up a chair, the drink's on me. Let's talk. Best to you :) Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:23:38 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Ed Subject: and my apologies to you, Ed Message:

Unfortunately you arrived just as troll hunting season opened. Thanks for telling us a bit about yourself. You said: ''What I won't apologize for though is my more than normal distrust these days of everything I see and hear. Can anyone relate to this?'' Yes, I can completely, which is why I am supsicious of trolls. ;) Anyway, welcome.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:34:16 (EST) From: Ed Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: and my apologies to you, Ed Message:

Thanks you Pat. San Fran huh? Walnut Creek here.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:40:48 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Ed Subject: Email whenever you want, Ed Message:

And if ever you are in SF please let me treat you to lunch or dinner at my restaurant.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:13:22 (EST) From: Richard Email: richard@rogers-graphics To: Ed Subject: Thanks Ed Message:

Ed, Too bad you got caught up in a squabble first time on the forum. I hear a lot in this post that tells me your intentions were well placed. There are 'lively discussions' here from time to time regarding how to get our stories told. Please don't let that discourage you from sharing more of your story. Interesting about your security position. I'm quite sure you are known to many here. I was involved in the infamous darshan recovery area for several years and stood in the tunnel as people passed through. The recovery area was quite active during the mid to late 70's especially at the Kissimmee programs. We had huge tents with cots and attendants for the many folks assimilating their feelings. At the last of those big events, I was asked by Speedy (security guy) to stand just across from M and be ready to open the curtain for the security people and instructors who were there to bring out those who needed to have some time off their feet. Quite a remarkable scene. I think people, myself included, brought all of their hopes, fears and dreams and just let them go all at once. Sometimes with results ranging from hilarious to psychotic. Now that phenomenon would make a tremendous pschology thesis. Thanks for having the class to apologize as you have. I respect that. If you know me and want to email, I respect anonymity. Richard Rogers, was in graphics at IHQ from '73 - '79

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:27:17 (EST) From: Ed Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: Thanks Ed Message:

Speedy, from Texas right? Remember Neil too? (from Houston) I was probably standing right next to you. I was at the front gate with Michael Nouri and also one of those guys on the motorbikes patrolling the grounds all night long. I don't recall me ever getting any sleep.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:06:24 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Ed Subject: Names and faces Message:

Can't recall Speedy's home but he was always in the thick of it when M was nearby. I don't know Neil by name but would surely recall the face, along with yours and many others. Michael N. did gate security? Funny, my wife and I took her mom to see M in NYC in the mid-80's. Her usher was Nouri and that impressed her above all else. Her summation of M was that 'He is just like an Indian Billy Graham'. Ah, the wisdom of elders.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:07 (EST) From: Ed Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: Thanks Ed Message:

Yes, Nouri was at the gate. It was as if he were the token celebrity, welcoming everyone with that perfect Hollywood smile. Actually, he was a really fun guy to be around after cutting through all the superficial bullshit and he realized he wasn't auditioning for a screenplay.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:54 (EST) From: Jethro Email: jed53@hotmail.com To: Ed Subject: Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL Message:

I also did similar security around m from about 76-79 and lived in Acton ashram which looked after 'the Lords servants' for soke time. Feel free to email me (above) if you want to. Jethro(formely Eddie Fisher)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:06:45 (EST) From: Ed Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL Message:

Then you know how the bar was raised regarding your service position as opposed to the people doing normal security such as seating, etc. After all, now you were responsible for the 'Life of the Perfect Master' !!! What a crock of shit !!! How did I ever fall for that? Thanks for you e-mail invite. I'd like to take you up on your offer after I calm down. Bye the way, Have you seen LIZ lately? (Just Kidding) I do still do have a warped sense of humor. At least something survived.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:49:23 (EST) From: Lookie Lou Email: None To: Ed Subject: Did you contact Gerry? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:15 (EST) From: Ed Email: None To: Lookie Lou Subject: Re: Did you contact Gerry? Message:

No I didn't. He/She said the deletion of that post will be explained later. So, I'll wait.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:01:43 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Ed Subject: Re: Did you contact Gerry? Message:

Hi Ed, Sorry if you were tossed into the bin with the trolls. Must have been suffucating in there. There's a problem if people respond to trolls. See, trolls are here to disrupt threads and to make the forum look like a balled up nest of confusion. My job, like the Filament's is to bring clarity. Personally I think I do a lot better job than he does. Email me if you like. New folks are gonna have to be vetted somewhat, as it's troll season again.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:38:00 (EST) From: New person Email: None To: All Subject: GERRY! FA: Check your email Message:

I left a very important email for you

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:22:22 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: The Hidden Enemy of Doubt Message:

There's a brief essay about doubt on ELK that's interesting reading. Now that I'm out of the cult I'm amazed that I ever fell for the way we spoke of doubt in the abstract, bereft of content or context. Yet Maharaji speaks of many things this way, doesn't he (Gratitude, Appreciation, Clarity, etc.)? It's completely benumbing and guaranteed to stave off any hope of honest thought or independent examination for any who accept this abuse of language on its own terms. Even Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress put his various human traits in some sort of context. This stuff is bizarre. [ The Hidden Enemy of Doubt ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:43:13 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yeah but Message:

It's not just a hidden enemy, it's a 'Huge, monstrous enemy' hahahaha Ahhh Jesus....I could hardly read her gobbledegook all the way through. I thought 'that' experience was supposed to be 'so simple'....I think she could get a whole Phd thesis out of her struggles with that 'huge, monstrous enemy'. It's weird though, it really is one of the main things M pushes. 'leave no room for doubt in your mind', 'never doubt the purity of the master'. Looking back over my years as a premie and my struggles with the 'enemy' makes me realise that the mental gymnastics required to first accept this fictional enemy and then to continually struggle with it was just a load of tomfoolery instigated by the 'Master' as a catch all clause to save his ass whenever I saw through his bullshit. Really, he just fucks with peoples heads .....and they are 'grateful' for it!! I'm sure if you picked up any Joe Blow from the street, who doesn't even consider him/herself 'spiritual' or 'a practiser' or whatever but chuggs along with their work, family, rest and play.....the chances are that person would be a lot more sussed than Premies. I'm really pissed with myself that I allowed him to fuck with my head for so long.What a waste of yeaaaaaaars.Ah well, mustn't grumble, as they say, .....just get on with it :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:03:11 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Grumble all you want, Dermot... Message:

It's our turn to gripe about his non-holiness! I also had a hard time reading that shit. The more I read those poems and essays from ELK, the more I pity them because they are so totally screwed up in their minds. It takes a lot of effort to undue all that mindfuck. Just today, in the middle of a bad snow and ice storm I was driving into town to pick up some groceries and stuff when my clutch blew out. Luckily I know how to shift the car without a clutch, so I made it to the store and back home. But this eery little though passed through my head: 'if I still followed m, this wouldn't have happened.' It shocked me that I would still think something like that. That the programming was still there. Anyone here knows I've been a ex for some time now. So I pushed that particular thought away and said to myself, ''your fucking clutch blew out, what could that possibly have to do with Maharaji?'' It's a freaking car--it can be fixed. Now I feel better. Strange how those things happen when we least expect it. The important thing is that I do feel resentment about lost years. I think it's normal. Love, Cynth, who wants back wages from working at DECA, (yeah, right) :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:23:59 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Addendum Message:

It's in the 'Lives' Section, posted on January 25.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:40:58 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jim Subject: Language usage Message:

You bring up a valid point. It makes me wonder if that wasn't part of the inticement. His use of language, the mahatmas' use of language and even Marilyn, made satsang seem different than ordinary, daily verbage. It elevated the content, or lack thereof, onto a different plane, one that we weren't used to. We weren't used to anything that came in that package, foreign and slightly mystical. Even today, for all the mainstream efforts, the way Maharaji talks, and instructors, and premies, is just off enough to put it into its own category. What the category is, I have no word for. At programs, it's like everyone has lost their brains, listening to the conversations. The choice of words has to be just so. Conference calls are the worst. It would make me want to scream into the phone. The fake, phoney, politically correct phraseology and tone were nauseating. When a person receives knowledge, it seems this manner of speech is instantly acquired as proof positive of admission into Klub Knowledge. It is then a way to identify each other. Those that don't know the 'speak' are considered oursiders. I'm sure there's a good psych thesis here.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:11:49 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Y'all realize of course... Message:

...the trolls are coming out of the wordwork just like Jean Michael predicted to me in an email I didn't answer (sorry JM.) As the cult winds down to nothingness thanks to natural attrition and a huge push from ex-premies, some of the remaining faithful will be turning into cyber sneaker bombers. I urge restraint in responding to these trolls. Some I'm blindly deleting because I haven't the time to read them all but I can see the effect on the forum: It takes us away from Maharaji and the cult and focuses on trolls. Naturally the level of discussion plummets. Now if these partially deleted threads start to look like nonsense because of the deletions the whole thread will go. Bear with me while I'm trying to deal with this new wave of troll attack. I'm learning as I'm going. Also I have a couple of important (to me) projects going on in the real world so my time is limited. If Pat or anyone with the password sees troll posts, go ahead and delete them. I'd appreciate it and above all DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:01:54 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: gerry Subject: My next prediction Message:

is that they'll try to become intelligent, and get in touch with us personnally and in a 'friendly' and 'open' manner. This has already started with me ..... a few phone calls, dinners etc. Premies are going to feed me and invite me for a while. And it's funny(or sad if you prefer) believe me. They're pathetic. Next thing will be the million $ I'm still waiting for ...

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:15:40 (EST) From: Nick Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: My next prediction Message:

I look forward to seing if these predicted behaviour patterns actually manifest. If they do, I'm afraid that they will simply be a catalyst for a great show of cyinicism from me. At the begining of April last year, I wrote this letter to a number of premies who were heavily involved in the organisation of EV activity in the North East of England where I had been regional co-ordinator for a number of years from 1994-99: 'I am writing this letter to those of you who I worked closely with and whom I most trusted for their sincerity and honesty during my years of involvement in the North East with Maharaji and Elan Vital, namely: (here I inserted 6 names). After 30 years of more or less continuous involvement with Majharaji, I have taken the very clear decision that I no longer consider him to be my teacher nor wish to be associated with him. Earlier this week I cancelled my standing order to EV, which represented to me an ending of my commitment to him. It will probably come as no surprise to you that the reason for this stems from the very serious allegations made against him by a number of people who have spent considerable time in close proximity to him. the witness statements of Maharaji's use and abuse of women, drugs and alcohol over a very sustained period of time have put me in an impossible position with him. Not that all the behaviour portrayed is inherently wrong, but from Maharaji it reeks of a hypocrisy which I canot even begin to condone or accept. I know that many premies take the stance that 'as long as Knowledge works for me, then Maharaji can do whatever he chooses in his personal life'. I too have probably reconciled doubts over the years with such reasoning. However, the evidence now seems too strong to ignore, and no-one (Elan Vital nor Maharaji) seems to be refuting it. I was maybe not the most dynamic or astute premie in the pack over the years, but I always tried to be guided by siincerity. I trusted that even the most stupid mistakes could be eventually forgiven if the motive was pure. I no longer believe in the purity of Maharaji's intentions, and that leaves me with no basis for continuing my relationship with him. I never had the opportunity over the 30 years to spend time close to Maharaji, so had to depend on the reports of people such as instructors for that kind of intimate picture. I trusted what I heard - the image of the master who, although mischievous and playful, spent his every waking moment working towards the fulfilment of his devotees. However, I now firmly believe that Maharaji has feet of clay and that is not what I signed up for in 1971, and not how Maharaji continued to portray himself, either directly or by inference, for most of the years I have been involved. From my knowledge of you, I am confident that each of you has at one time truly believed in Maharaji as the living incarnation of God, which is what my relationship with him was based on. I have never sought simply a meditation teacher and certainly would not have dedicated the love, devotion, time and resources that I did to Maharaji to such a teacher. I preferred to be open and honest with you rather than simply leave you to find out second hand. In conclusion, I hold good memories of our contacts over the years and wish you all the happiness I wish myself'. Not one of the recipients of the letter, nor any other premie from the local organisation has made any contact with me since the day I sent that letter. And, as I said in a previous posting, my wife who was in no way implicated in the letter has been 'damned' by association with me and equally black-listed. I had spent hundreds and hundreds of hours with these people over the years, and yet paranoia engendered by cult conditioning simply disables human responses. When I first left the cult last year, I went through the gammut of emotions which I recognise time after time in new posters: the initial terror of betraying the Lord, which soon turns to anger and biterness, then to a sense of self shame and stupidity for having allowed oneself to be have been duped by such an obvious scam, and slowly slowly a sense of relief as normality begins to manifest and his hold lets go. And yet, the years of submission and conditioning do not let go easily. This very concept of normality is the very thing that m did his very best to destroy in his followers. To destroy the belief that anything this world has to offer has any validity: to destroy the sense of family, relationships, the value of intellect and fun, of striving and ambition. I genuinely miss nothing of the years of involvement in his so-called mission, except the one-time great sense of community which, Margaret Thatcher style, he also destroyed through implications of guilt, mis-directed energy, lack of focus. I now find myself often walking down the street, thinking how good life is, yet aware that the way I lead it in no way conforms to his teachings. I love and get great joy from my 2 grown-up children, I love my wife, I love having simple friendships, my job is fun. I never meditate, my once-while spiritual aspirations no longer exist, but I feel a fullness, which he tried to convince me(successfully for 30 years) could not exist without him. However, I have to beat back the conditioned thoughts which stem from his belittling of more or less everything that non-premies hold dear, his way of entrapment. Yet, although I rarely post here these days, I still avidly read the contributions to the Forum, and continue to gain confidence and clarity from the many beautiful people who have have had both the good fortune and the strength to break free from the shameless charlatan who ensnared us so powerfully in his self-serving scam of a cult. All praise to the many of you who work so hard and selflessly to maintain this forum in order to enable other premie victims to step away.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:40:47 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Nick Subject: **Great post Nick** Message:

And what an honest and sincere letter. How shocking that not one of those people even replied. You're so right, he even destroyed the one good thing we had i.e. a sense of community. It used to really irk me in recent years when he would ridicule us for treating an event as a social occasion. He'd say something like...'and you ask each other what have you been doing, and it's not going to do you any good to know' When really, meeting old friends was the best thing about an event. Well said Nick, I identified with so much of what you said, I hope we hear more from you. Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:25:29 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Nick Subject: Wonderful post. Thanks, Nick [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:49 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: My next prediction Message:

So are they pretending to be ex'es?

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:10:16 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: My next prediction Message:

Not sure. A bit desillusioned .... and wanting to be 'friends' again. I'll keep you informed.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:35:19 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Email from trolls pretending to be exes Message:

Several of us have had emails from people claiming to be new ex-premies. The emails sound like fishing expeditions: ''I also hate Rawat and want to get him. So what is your plan to take him out?'' Of course, it is done more subtly than that and more friendly but that is the thrust of the emails. I will not respond to people who email me anonymously for the reason that I post under my own name, my posts are in the archives full of personal details and CAC published whatever I did not. So I am well known, well-trusted by exes and the anonymous trolls and emailers are mysteries who need to even the playing field before expecting my trust. And, yes, Gerry, I will delete trolls and I will not feed them.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:42:40 (EST) From: WPC girl Email: None To: All Subject: Hi , I'm new here Message:

What a wonderful oasis - I thought all the premies were brain dead. I'm new to this and I'm amazed by the revelations here and on EPO which I just looked at today. I thought I was the only black sheep in the Family of Love. Remember the torchlight at dawn when we were awoken for exercises on the Surrey Downs at dawn? And those wonderful days on Clapham Common in our army fatigues? Look forward to talking to you all. My friend is helping me with all this as I'm not online at home yet, but I soon will be, if just for this. Jai sat chit anand (said with irony)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:21:43 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: WPC girl Subject: Re: Hi , I'm new here Message:

Hi WPC girl. Wre you ever in or around the Acton ashram? Many WPCers (rajaji worshippers) came around there. Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:20:22 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: WPC girl Subject: Welcome to F7 Message:

It was a pleasure to read your post and I look forward to hearing more from you. -Vicki

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:40:38 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Welcome to F7, WPC girl Message:

And I hope you get a computer soon because I am looking forward to hearing much more from you. Patrick Conlon, San Francisco But I got K in UK and was there till 76 so we may have friends in common.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:17:21 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: PatC Subject: Welcome, WPC girl Message:

Thanks for sharing your story. I hope to hear more from you as you feel to do so. All the best, Richard

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:53:16 (EST) From: Kelly Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk To: WPC girl Subject: Re: Hi , I'm new here Message:

Hi WPC girl, I was one too, and yes I do remember those exercises on the Surrey Downs in our army fatigues. For some strange reason they were dyed navy blue. My arms still ache when I remember those sessions just before Millenium where we all linked arms and formed a human protection chain. Then the biggest and beefiest of the boys charged at us and tried to get through. The bruises lasted for weeks. And all to protect our Lord. Was it? I have to admit, it even seemed mad to me at the time. Were you in the truck when we were stopped by the police? I can still remember their faces when they opened up the back and peered in!! Ah, the memories! I'm very glad you've found your way here. This is really the company of truth, and you are very welcome. I surely must know you, why don't you e-mail me and we'll see. Absolute discretion guaranteed! All the best Karen

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:07:02 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: WPC girl Subject: Hello and welcome [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:23 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Welcome WPC girl... Message:

I look forward to hearing more from you. Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:20:35 (EST) From: Zoey Email: None To: All Subject: Flushed the pills. Message:

I posted my darshan experiences (all true by the way) to make my wife laugh and also all of you. Just read Babs message about being afraid of punishment from above and I realized that this site is heartfelt and a source of great pride to many of you. I removed Prem from the equation in 1981 after practising the 4 techniques 4-6 hours a day for 6 years. I spent every lunch and coffee break doing the techniques. It had taken me 3 years of attending discourses every night to finally be accepted by a bona fide priest of Prem to receive the techniques that my wife at the time had told me about 3 years earlier. I didn't experience anything I wasn't the day before and went home really confused. What did Prem want ??????? I practised and begged, practised some more and begged some more. In the end I was only begging. I stopped practising, started drinking and doping. I was worthless, life was worthless. I bought a shotgun, sawed the barrel, walked into a forest, turned the cannon around but then this peace came over me. I'd never felt at peace for one second of my life before. Couldn't end it. I returned home to a wife and newborn daughter and began to long climb out of an overwhelming despair brought to me by my own weaknesses spoonfed fed by a demented teenager westernizing Sikhkism. Today, I spend my days letting go to what breathes me, fooling around with my 3 daughters, and giving myself to my wife. In an odd way, I thank my life for Prem. I'll never be fooled by vendors of foma (what Kurt Vonnegut calls soothing bullshit) again. Imagine the incredible mindfuck of having a person travelling the world telling people that what they need is inside of them but they need him to get to it. What makes me has come through for me at crucial times (it turned every darshan into a keystone comedy) and it's all I hold on to. Whatever happens in my life doesn't come from anything in my life but from life itself.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:42:57 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Zoey Subject: Nice post, Zoey. Thanks [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:57:57 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Zoey Subject: Do I know you? Message:

Are you who I think you are? Jim Why not email me: jimheller@shaw.ca

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:27:19 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Zoey Subject: Oh Hi Welcome, Zoey (loft?)... Message:

It's hard, isn't it? Please don't despair too greatly, there has been so much genuine care for me here i can't tell you. It shall be the same for you. Big hug. xxx

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:52:44 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: All Subject: To Quiet: from thread below Message:

I exited in early 1997. The personal things that happened to me in the cult are well documented in the archives. The reasons overall were because I finally understood that prempal has consistently lied, consistently vamped peoples love, dedication and good intentions, and I see him as a spiritual rapist. Since becoming an ex I have found out that he is also a paedophile protector and a revisionist. His silence on Jagdeo totally shocked me. I always thought that prempal cared for children . It is clear that he let Jagdeo carry on touring after he (prem) heard the allegations against Jagdeo. I also had no idea about the extent of the financial scams that have happened throughout the years. I faithfully gave all my money to HIM during my ashram years. Even after I was thrown out onto the streets, I managed to send him money. I find it unacceptable that 'He' is living off exploiting others. Prem Rowatt is the antithesis of what he presented himself as AND presents himself to be. For me he is on the same par as SatyaSaiBaba, except with a far less number of idiots believing he is some concept of god. If you have not already done so, I suggest you do some reading on Rahdasoami/Beas history. Not so much for that argument about lineage, but more to read the satsangs of earlier 'masters'. You'll see exactly where m got all his stuff from (and all the Maharajis in the world). This info is well documented on EPO and can be challenged. Now here is what you posted in answer to my question “Why are you an Ex” ‘May be I didnt like people doing my thinking for me. Maybe i dont like the idea of people attacking other people because they ask questions. Maybe I dont like sensership. How about you Jethro?’ Just to clarify, Who in the cult people did your thinking for you? Who in the cult attacked you for asking questions? Can you tell me more about the cult censorship you mention? It seems like you have some valuable information to give out. Regards Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:06:44 (EST) From: Quiet Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: To Quiet: from thread below Message:

Well Jethro I exited a year before you. We have simular experiances. For you answers 1) Maharaji, instructors, co -ordinators. 2)Maharaji, Instructors, co-ordinators and other premies when i questioned just about anything that was against the so called Polocies. 3)Not being able say 'hey what you said was wrong , that disnt happen, I was there' statements like that you were wized off some where and given heavy Satsang along the lines ' you were mistaken, it happened like this.........its a bit heavy on your heart when the person who is telling you this is a person who you related to as an asperant and in your opinion is one of the greatest people you know. Ever had that happen? Thats only example. I got too many to mention , besides Ive pissed enough people off on here already. Information........nothing credible enough to take to a court. Q

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:32:13 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Re: To Quiet: from thread below Message:

Not being able say 'hey what you said was wrong , that disnt happen, I was there' statements like that you were wized off some where '...given heavy Satsang along the lines ' you were mistaken, it happened like this.........its a bit heavy on your heart when the person who is telling you this is a person who you related to as an asperant and in your opinion is one of the greatest people you know. Ever had that happen? ' Yes, something similar. I did a part-time psychotherapy course in the early 90s. On the course there were 3(I think) premies including myself and 2 aspirants(as well as 30 ordinary mortals). One of the aspirants became a friend of mine and she always used to talk to me about m and k. Amongst our conversations I told her about the early years of m being LOTU etc. She came to me the following month and told me that Belkis had said that all that early stuff that I had talked about never happened and that she(the aspirant) should watch out for olsder premies. Another person called Denise Row(who was once an instructor, I don't know about now) told the aspirant that she Denise never knew me. Anyway that was sorted out by my showing the aspirant the film 'Satguru has come' that has a lot of early LOTU footage. It's strange having someone you have lived with in the same ashram say they don't know you. I lived with both Belkis and Denise in the same ashram and they both knew me well. In fact now that I come to think of it, I gave Belkis satsang about entering the ashram AND I gave her driving lessons. I somehow buried it for another 6 years and remained loyal to M. It's perfideous. To be a follower of m one has to kill one's own humanness. Now how about you sharing more about your experiences and where you lived etc. When did you find out about Jagdeo? You don't have to give out who you are. It's ok to tell the truth now. Ther are no rotten vegatable outside the cult,,,in fact the veggies in ex-land are all organic. Bye for now, I have to go and but a thigamygig for my daughter's clarinet Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:00:46 (EST) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: All Subject: Is Tim Gallwey embarrassed by LORD MAHARAJI Message:

I could be wrong but it sure seems as though Mr. Gallwey has omitted any reference to OUR LORD MAHARAJI on his website. He used to dedicate his books to his Guru Maharaji and we were all so proud. Gave us that goose bumpey type feeling just to read it. Now, in his workshops, he charges $1250 american(lodging and dinner not included)and I'll bet he doesn't even mention our wonderful, wonderful LORD MAHARAJI. We need premies to stand up and sing HIS praises just like the good ol' days. Mr. Gallwey is in a great position to do this, yet, he apparently allows his workshoppers to believe the message is his and not that of our beloved LORD MAHARAJI. Tim Gallwey, I implore you. Stop being embarrassed by your involvement with our LORD MAHARAJI. Sing HIS praises in public. HIS GRACE will be with you. Otherwise, you are no more than a cheaper imitation of Anthony Robbins. I love you my Maharaji! [ Tim G. seems embarrassed ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:38 (EST) From: Peg Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: embarrassment Message:

I notice Valerio doesn't mention Maharaji either. So strange how premies , including me 6 months ago, act for all the world as if they were ashamed of him. Don't talk about him openly to whoever, Even though going to a video is supposed to be an inspiring, uplifting and soo valuable experience, would it get mentioned in the same way a good film would, say the next day at work? And I would talk about the places I'd been to 'events' without mentioning the only reason I went there. I worked somewhere for two years, recently , without telling a single person about Maharaji. I sometimes told people I did meditation, but (with most people) not a word about the teacher or that it was the 'true knowledge' The only people I would talk about it to were other premies or 'seekers' who asked about my tiny little picture on the mantle, and Jehovah's witnesses I wanted to get rid of. I was ashamed, but not open enough to see it. Peg

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:23:37 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: All Subject: look, Quiet... Message:

look, Quiet- if we were all talking face to face in a real world room, you wouldn't stand out at all, because spoken language isn't visible, its audible. illiterates can pass quite well in the real world because of that fact. They only get tripped up when confronted with something that requires being able to read and write. Here on the internet, the only way we have of presenting ourselves is in print--unless you have voice chat, which this isn't. If your terribly spelling is real, then i find it hard to believe that you could even get accepted into Law School. You wouldn't be able to pass english 101. Your professors would reject your application and send you to remedial classes and require you to satsfactorily pass those tests before allowing you into the mainstream curriculm. Furthermore, reading and writing, like all lanfuage, is learned by imitation and repetition. The brain is prewired to absorb it that way. You see it, you say it, you write it, you strive to recreate what you have witnessed others do, in order to be understood by them. Not succeeding at it dooms you to isolation and inability to extablish communication with others. With the amount of reading that Law students are required to accomplish in order to keep up with their coursework, your eyes and brain have to read and process the same correctly spelled words over and over again. in the normal course of brain adaptation, your brain ought to have gradually noticed and corrected itself to recognize and reproduce the consistent configuration of words it has read by now. A newborn has to hear the same word 5000 times before it tries to say it for the first time aloud. If you're old enough to be in Law school, you have seen these words wou claim not to be able to spell far more than 5000 times, by now. So i don't buy it. Lawyers aren't allowed to be sloppy, careless, inattentive and slipshod. The picture doesnt add up. It is human nature to practice something if one yearns to get it right, to master it, to attain a targeted level of ability, where one is secure in what one knows one can do. You don't evidence such a trait. That goes against what is known about human development. Perhaps you had a head injury, a minor stroke, an inborn or acquired learning disability, that permanently impaired your language center in the left brain. If so, I find it all the more unsupportable to believe that you could have been admitted into Law school. I could only see it if you are a disabled student who has someone who translates your writings for you, and cleans them and proofreads and retypes them up, before you submit them for grading. I have two deaf friends, whose written english is flawless. I have had blind friends whose spelling in Braille was likewise flawless. I have two disabled friends in their 30's who still can't remember to punctuate at all, and they are both obsessive writers, by hand. They generate volumes, daily. All I can say to you, therefore, is, either you are faking it, being lazy, or brain damaged. In any case, I can't read anything you post and take it seriously, because you don't make the effort to learn the language as it actually is. look--we have a few other posters here whose first language isnt english. salam is arabic first. salsa is south american spanish. jean michel is french. they all make forgiveable errors in their writing at times, but its clear that they work with diligence at getting better all the time. we all applaud when salam manages to get a post up without a single spelling error, and he does manage! but you don't seem to be credible. a poor speller doesn't cover it. it doesnt jive with the big picture. suppose you tell us the name and location of the Law School you are enrolled in? maybe the academic standing of the institution would lend us some insight as to the veracity of your claims.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:46:47 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: look, Quiet... Message:

Bloody brilliant post, Janet. I salute you. But you didn't analyze Quiet correctly. He can be summed up in three words - Australian smart-arsed male. I think you know what I mean. :C)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:53:30 (EST) From: Diz Email: None To: PatC Subject: Studying with dyslexia Message:

Hi Baiji, Pat, Quiet, and all I haven't posted here for ages, but I do read and benefit. Just thought I'd jump in here because I think I've got a point of view that's worth putting forward (usually, other people make the points I might have made much more succinctly and much quicker than I could). I just wanted to point out that in Australia, it is quite possible to attend university if you've got a specific learning disability (eg dyslexia). Australian universities all operate under anti-discrimination laws that translate into policies which allow entry to people with disabilities who can reach the appropriate level of achievement with support. Disabilities officers are employed to help arrange the support students need. In the case of someone with a specific learning problem around spelling, that support would probably be along the lines of access to a computer with a spell-check and/or a dictation program, which they could use in exams as well as to complete assignments at home. I've had quite a bit to do with people who are dyslexic, and many are very intelligent. I don't know for sure that Quiet isn't a 'persona', but I surely don't know for sure that he is. I think it's very important to give people the benefit of the doubt, for the reasons Baiji noted above. For me, this site was a life-saver some years ago, and I would hate to see anyone who turns here for support turned away through too-hasty assumptions. Quiet, you need to be aware that a number of people have posted here as 'personas' rather than as themselves. Other posters have taken them at face value and have been pretty upset when they've discovered that they've put their energy into communicating with someone who, basically, didn't really exist. One way around the lack of a spell-check in the forum software might be to write your posts in Word and then cut and paste them into a post. And it might also be a good idea to repost something about your story of becoming an ex-premie. Then people know something of who you are and can respond accordingly. Best wishes to all. And thanks to all for keeping this Forum alive. It continues to help me and is so important for people coming out of the cult. Diz

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:12:33 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Diz Subject: Re: Studying with dyslexia Message:

Hi Diz, Thank you for pointing this out. I do concur with your factual statements re dyslexia and learning opportunities in the Commonwealth of Australia. If I have a bone of contention at all, it is with the inherent tone of the individual postings mentioned, not so much their content. It is rather difficult to detect someone's intention minus vocal inflection, phrasing and body language to assist their monologue. But speaking for myself, I know I attempt to take extra efforts to make my feelings clear through the limited language skills i have available to me. I do go back once and peruse what i have written to check any typo's. I don't really think about this more than it being a consideration to be helpful to those reading, and that it will facillitate my being understood more completely. I am usually very tired when i come here and i don't want to waste anyone's time, my own included. Tangiel arguments re He said/She said serve no constructive purpose in my mind and we could all help each other better by filtering our own crap a bit more responsibly. As if I have a clue!!! HA! In the words of a recently departed wise fool Peace & Lentils

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:58:01 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Diz Subject: Thanks, Diz. Nicely said. Message:

I'm not dismissing Quiet out of hand. Your advice to introduce yourself politely and tell a bit of your story is really important. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:21:18 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Drop It Quiet, Be a bit Quiet...Love to You(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:48:37 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: All Subject: Please Guys, Would you Please.. Message:

conduct yourselves with a sensitivity to the rest of us here? I honestly welcome all here, as I know I feel I was welcomed. This site is a lifeline, for some people, myself very much included, who are going through the most difficult time of their lives. When we enter here and find a few personalities engaging in semantics or muscle flexing, it serves no other purpose than to further the heartache. I, for one, come here to glean solid information about m and his minions, in order to help me process a trauma that has no currently tangeable bounds. Internicine squabbling, does nothing to enhance my healing or to provide a factual account on which any sincere person viewing here can make an intelligent conclusion by. Reams of absorbable information are available on ex premie.org Prior reading of this site enabled me to get 'up to speed' and to help me assimilate into the process of extrication. There is much kindness and understanding here, but may I say, the qualities that we originally held to be true, remain so still. Respect, compassion, common sense and dare I say it, a tad of humility, will never go astray. We are all outraged, well I am, I do not want revenge, I just need to understand how this could have happened, so I can love myself again and trust the world that i live in. Please lets be human with each other. Love Bai Ji

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:50:27 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Re: Please Guys, Would you Please.. Message:

Hey Quiet, You have not upset me, I have been upset by none other than my Beloved, my Lord, my one True Master My mere brothers and sisters pale into insignificance in the face of this! I appreciate your thoughtful post toward me, though I have to ask you 'why do you think you have 'Detractors' (your word) Here? May I suggest that you and we take a small step backwards and start again? Please READ as much as you can of EPO. Then insert yourself accordingly here. In my limited experience, this is very much a place to express heartfelt emotions re M and exiting. Not an arena for Sticking to One's Guns if you can understand what I mean. By the way, thank you for your wishes for my happiness, if I ever do, it will be about fucking time. Love to you Bai ji XXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:47:55 (EST) From: Stevie Ji Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: Bai Ji Subject: Nice job, Bai Ji, You did it again Message:

Bai Ji, I swear I was feeling everything you've just said last night, but, fearful that I couldn't say it as well as you just did without sounding like I was complaining, I just kept quiet. Thank you so much for addressing this sensitive topic so eloquently, sensitively, respectfully and intelligently. It needed to be said and you said it so well. I too would like to ask that everyone please take to heart what Bai Ji is telling us. Yes, we are all still in various stages of pain and anger as we unravel layer after layer of deeply buried 'drips' and other repressed stuff from his world but taking our frustration out on each other instead of dealing with our anger in kinder and more respectful ways will only prolong the pain and suffering further. Your soothing words are a potent balm to my recovering heart and are giving me new glimpses into how deep the human heart can go. In beautiful and tender ways, you are proving to be a kind of "Moses" leading M's "Israelite-like exes" thru the wilderness of F7. I'll stop. I can not improve on your prayer. Thanks again so much Bai Ji. Truly magnificent stuff.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:54:08 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Stevie Ji Subject: Well said, Bai Ji Message:

Bai Ji, Well said and heart felt. Many of us cringe when all the sandbox squabbling begins. Worse yet, many valued posters withdraw from participation here because it seems pointless with all the food fights. Thank goodness there are people like yourself willing to stand up and tell it like it is. There's much to explore here as to how it happened, how it affected us and how we saw the way out. Richard

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:52:26 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Bai Ji Subject: total agreement here Message:

bai ji.. I saw some of the Altlanta Video yesterday and some of the back Passages vid.. well as much as I could stomach.. it did make me feel queasy. Have u seen em ? Its quite distressing to see how blatant and visible the manipulation which he and his revisionist pals indulge in has become to me. I dont know whether its the illumination of this place, or just that they have become WORSE.. I suspect that through the good offices and rough and tumble of F7 my perspective has been broadened and widened and, most importantly, supported. It really was like looking through the window from the outside... those two Videos are the worst shot-in-the-foot which maharaji has evr made. He IS responsible - yet his cowardice makes him constantly and insidiously deflect blame elsewhere in order to maintain his fragile ego. The thing that got me was the language used by people like Ron Geaves and Good Grief dont the PAMs on Back Passages look unhappy !!! (Apart from Glen who seems to be flourishing in his Rochdale City Council turned European parliament personae :)) !) Especially the dreadful American women - incidentally at least one of those interviews was filmed prior to 1999. The language used is creepy.'. maharaji himself' and his egotistical pause riddled presentation to a room of wallflowers.... YIKES 'communicating about the possibility of Knowledge' ?? - I think the awful truth is that maharaji has fallen for the trap of thinking that because you have a name for something.. you actually know what it is. And unfortunately, all he seems to have is a big bag of words... it is the rhythm, the pauses and the pace of his attention grabbing presentations which calm the mind... NOT what he says. The Master's 'Message' is Vague and Assumptive in extreme. Dangerous stuff.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:31:56 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Loaf Subject: 'Back Passages' LOL Message:

Hi Loaf, You say. 'I dont know whether its the illumination of this place, or just that they have become WORSE.. I suspect that through the good offices and rough and tumble of F7 my perspective has been broadened and widened and, most importantly, supported.' It really is interesting how blatant it all seems now and how clearly we can see through the whole charade. I think it is both because of our new perspective and because the goo and gang have got WORSE. Did you notice that during the Atlanta training, M said they were making a DVD of it so everyone could have the same training. I wonder whether they ever did, are they mad enough? Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:48:10 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Re: 'Back Passages' LOL Message:

Kelly, They made a roadshow version. It's called a KIT training. It's a big secret operation, in that it takes promises of security just to get the promo video, noteably referred to as 'The Michael Nouri video'. It's hysterical that they all think this is some great venture, Maharaji up close and personal. It's a joke.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:03:51 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Vicki Subject: The KIT training Message:

Hi Vicki, So they really did it? Who did they take the training to and how long did that last? Are they still doing these trainings? sorry so many questions, I'm just curious.. and utterly amazed! You're right, its a joke. Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:17:48 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Hi Loafi Ji... Hurts don't it?.. Message:

No I haven't yet seen the Atlanta Traing Sesh. I am aiming to do so though. Historically, I have enough personal data to continue the thread through to it's, un natural conclusion. I am filled with ambivolence, I know that some of the premies who have been out for longer, may not understand my vacillation. Well, yes you will as you all have gone through this. My sense of alleigence to m is so imbued in me that I pivot moment by moment. It is not coercion by F7 postings alone, that have brought me to my conclusions. It has been a life time of discrepancies and Core Level Insults, that I happily deferred in my belief that M was my Lord my All to me. How can I express my feelings of betrayal. It has affected me on every functioning (or more aptly...non- functioning) level, of my life. Thanks Loafie XXXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:54:17 (EST) From: Kelly Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk To: Bai Ji Subject: Hi Bai JI... Hurts don't it?.. Message:

Hi Bai Ji. We haven't spoken before, I am an intermittent visitor to the forum, but I remember so well how I felt just over a year ago, when I first woke up to the awful truth. You talked about learning to love yourself again... for me it has also been a question of learning to trust myself again. Especially learning to trust my own judgement. Mostly I settle for uncertainty! I think it's a lot healthier than the 'clarity' that M bangs on about in his complacent way. I have been very moved by your heartfelt posts, do feel free to e-mail me. I can also let you have a copy of the Atlanta training if you want one. Love Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 08:45:03 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Thank you Kelly, I shall talk with you (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:42:07 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Bai Ji Subject: Loafi Ji and Bai Ji Message:

Brilliant, Loafie. Once again. Glad you saw that vid. My final one and I turned it off after 20 minutes. Bai Ji, please watch that vid. Your ambivalence will evaporate instantly and all your dilemmas will be solved. Promise.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:03:07 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Quiet! Subject: Re: Yes, you're entitled Message:

Well Quiet, just as long as you're not a suppository, that's OK with me.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:24:47 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: ED Subject: OOOPS, Sorry Message:

Nobody else was chatting with you and I chimed in out of turn I guess. I think Gerry said there were better places to discuss this topic. I dunno. I barely post here.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:59:04 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Quiet Subject: shut up, u both Message:

What is wrong with u 2? New, eh? But you want to come as a guest of our forum and criticize it... Go to Lard's website and talk a little there: NOBODY CAN ANSWER YOU, YOU FOOLS. If you don't get it you can stop posting stupidity. Nobody is attacked here personally, if that is you guys doing it to us.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:39:52 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Ok Message:

It's true, I didn't read all your posts, maybe people were attacking you but now, to begin a 'thing' with Ed about censorship is not fair. You don't know people here, you are new, you don't understand many 'technical' parts of this forum. It may seem to you that the posts were deleted because they were censored? That is not why. Sometimes, is not convinient to explain all -why help the enemy, if you know what I mean- and Gerry changed his mind because to begin with. That is what I know, or what it appears to be, my conclussion following what happened after. I had problems communicating when I began to write in this forum (english is my second language) and particularly Gerry in those days accussed me of beeing a troll, and that is a premie pretending to be an ex. Just relax, and be sincere and get to know the forum. There are no bad people, all are very nice, including Jim who many misunderstand, IMO. When did you became an ex? Take care,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:28:51 (EST) From: Calling Gerry Email: None To: Me again Subject: Time for another deletion? Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:05:55 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Ed Subject: Re: Time for another deletion? Message:

Ed, please read the posts of people like Bai Ji, Housemum, Dermot, Kerry, Brian Smith, Janet and others too numerous to mention. These people are trying in a heartfelt, sincere (and often humorous) manner to analyse, question and understand what for many of them is a 30 year way of seeing the world and themselves. To call them 'still brainwashed' and 'in need of professional help' is facile and insulting. I'm sorry to have to say this, but your gratuitous rudeness makes me wonder whether it is in fact you who may need the professional help. Regards, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:27:09 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Livia Subject: Thank you, Livia. Well said! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:06:16 (EST) From: Anandaji Email: None To: Ed Subject: This thread reminds me... Message:

...of a joke. Sad looking guy walks up to the bar. 'What's the problem?' asks the bartender. 'I'm lonely. I have an IQ of 180 and I can't find a comparably intelligent woman to talk to.' 'What an amazing coincidence!' exclaims the barkeep. 'See that woman over there. A few minutes ago, she walked up with exactly the same problem.' So the two of them visited for hours talking about rocket science. Another guy walks up. Same kind of deal, only he has an IQ of 120. He gets set up with a woman in a business suit and they discuss the stock market and financial goals. Next guy walks up. He has an IQ of 80. Barkeep sets him up with a rather dull-looking woman in the corner. 'So,' the guy asks her, 'what cult are you in?' ba dump bump That's it for tonight. I'm tired and barely have enough energy left to sing Arti and meditate b4 turning in. Nighty, nighty and twameva mata... Anandaji, IQ oscillates between 75-85

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:18:17 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Email Address for TIM GALLWEY? Message:

Does anyone have an email address for Tim Gallwey? I have written a fairly negative expose about what he had to say in the Passages video, now that it's been transcribed, but I wanted to give him the opportunity to comment on it first, perhaps to say he was taken out of context, etc., or otherwise to explain what appears on it's face to be major, insulting, untruths. Does anyone know how I can reach him?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:25:45 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: Joe Subject: tg@theinnergame.com Message:

www.theinnergame.com

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:57:25 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: McDuck Subject: Thank you Message:

I'll see if I can get some response from him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:44:13 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: McDuck Subject: Funny, Message:

neither Mr Gallwey nor Dr Valerio Pascotto - www.eos.org/about.html - mention Mr Rawat in their CVs

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:51:33 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: McDuck Subject: Yes it is, isn't it???? Message:

In Passages, Gallwey professes, with hand motions that verge on the hyperactive, that Maharaji and knowledge are the very most important element of his life, and that Maharaji has done something -- introduce people to their 'heart' -- which has never been done in the history of the world. I kid you not, this is literally what he says. It's never been done before. He also said, with a straight face no less, that Maharaji has accomplished what he promised he would do. Yes, mission accomplished. He has made 'knowledge of the heart' available to 'every person on the planet,' that 'every person on the planet' now has access to receiving knowledge. I thought that was interesting, considering that off the top of my head, I can think of China (with 20% of the world's population)and almost the entire Arab world, where Maharaji has never placed even one lotus foot, and there are virtually no premies. Since Maharaji does not advertise his existence, nor that of knowledge at all and you would have to personally know a premie even to know he or knowledge exist, how someone would have access to knowledge in those places apparently only Tim Gallwey knows. But regardless of the truth of any of that, you would think he might mention something about that on his website, wouldn't you, I mean if he wasn't just saying that for propaganda among the premies and never expected anyone else to see it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:14:53 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yes, you would Message:

expect to see it on his website, but if the mission is already accomplished, why bother? This is not the first time this sort of sophistry has been aired. Back in the 70s, when the valid question was asked, 'When will GMJ bring peace to the world?', it was suggested the response be, 'He already has because there are people with peace in their lives.' I think the idea was floated by Bob Mishler, but I'm not entirely sure.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:12:30 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yes, you would Message:

expect to see it on his website, but if the mission is already accomplished, why bother? This is not the first time this sort of sophistry has been aired. Back in the 70s, when the valid question was asked, 'When will GMJ bring peace to the world?', it was suggested the response be, 'He already has because there are people with peace in their lives.' I think the idea was floated by Bob Mishler, but I'm not entirely sure.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:39:56 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Quiet! Subject: Re: A sujestion Message:

Whilst not wanting to be unnecessarily prescriptive about the OT content of tis forum, I have noticed, Quiet, that every time you post here, thread after thread becomes bogged down with endless trivia. You may not be aware of this, although you ought to be by now - this forum is primarily for people who were once genuine premies and have questioned or are now in the process of questioning the beliefs we inculcated along with the Knowledge. It is a lifebelt for many people including myself. You, however, seem to see it as a place where you can come and irk people with OT remarks whenever you see fit. Who are you anyway? Have you ever taken the time to tell us your story; how you came to K, what caused you to begin to doubt, if, indeed you do doubt? Most people I read on here have seen the necessity at some point to tell their story as honestly as they can. This was what I felt was required when I first came here. I left a little post and everyone immediately asked who I was, so I told them, HONESTLY. I don't feel you have done this, Quiet. Why not? Why do you have this need to come here and basically waste everyone's precious time? Do you really think anyone here can be bothered with your generally pointless and irrelevant interjections? This is a place, Quiet, where I come to look for intelligent, meaningful, thought-provoking debate as we all attempt to deconstruct what for some of us is 30 years of a way of looking at the world and our lives. You, however, appear to come here merely to draw attention to yourself with endless trivia that you sometimes express with a slightly sinister tone completely out of tune with the general mood of this forum. I think now is the time you come completely clean, Quiet. Tell us your history, then add something meaningful or heartfelt to this forum. Oh and by the way, if you don't answer this with your genuine story, then I think we will all know what we need to know about you anyway. Regards, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:00:20 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Livia Subject: Thanks Livia... Message:

If I had gotten down here and read your eloquent post, I would have had no need to write what I did above. I know that we are all in different 'Grades/Levels' of ex-trication but I currently agree with all you have written. Hijacking of my life support machine, by OT pedantics is 'Noying' I have been supported by your postings todate through this awful time. Love Bai JI XXXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:15:25 (EST) From: Livia Email: liviadowte@hotmail.com To: Bai Ji Subject: Calling Bai Ji Message:

Dear Bai Ji, Thanks. I've just read your post at the top and was thinking how well and lovingly you had written it, unlike my somewhat aggressive ripostes to Ed and Quiet. (I can't seem to help getting annoyed - the time-wasting factor of all this nonsense really irritates me!) Your posts over the last few days have moved me deeply. Judging by the time of day of your posts today, I'm wondering if we're in the same part of the world? Perhaps we could talk on the phone? We may even know each other. Please email me! With love, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:35:09 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Livia Subject: Calling Bai Ji and Livia Message:

Well said both of you. These people are not just ''pedantic'' and argumentative. They are mischief makers probably. Since you guys have been here there has not been a troll attack. This may be the beginning of one. Most of them are designed to disrupt the forum with endless idiotic arguments. The best thing to do is to ignore them. I'll explain more by email Bai Ji and Livia you're welcome to email me too any time you want.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:17:07 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Quiet Subject: Why would anyone take you seriously, Quiet? Message:

As I said to you in a post below: Quiet, correct spelling is a courtesy extended to other adults in a civilized society. Why should anyone bother to read subliterate rubbish let alone take it seriously and respond to it? Please take some classes in English and then you may find people will react to you more respectfully. How you ever think you will be a lawyer with your shallow grasp of the language is beyond me. Or do you intend to practice law in the Amazon or Melanesia where there is no written language?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:36:39 (EST) From: Relayed from EV UK email listing Email: None To: All Subject: Special Update Message:

national email: january 2002 SPECIAL UPDATE Friday February 8th 8.00 pm John McClean (UK National Contact) and Yorum Weiss are planning a series of conference calls throughout Europe to give an update about recent developments and changes, as well as plans for the future, and opportunities to participate. The UK and Ireland call is scheduled for Friday February 8th at 8.00 pm. The aim is for as many people as possible to hear this update through a local conference call. The focus of these calls will be on the two primary opportunities of propagation and resources; and to see how we can focus and strengthen our efforts to support Maharaji's fresh appoach. Information will also be given about the changes that are taking place. The conference calls will be transmitted to local hall venues. Some private calls have also been arranged for convenience. Details of hall venues only to follow by email shortly. For further information about attending a conference call event in your area, please get in touch with your local Elan Vital area contact. Or you can send an email to: info@elanvital.org.uk ======================================== Will be interesting what 'spin' is provided on 'Maharaji's fresh appoach'. Presumably 'resources' mean 'donations'?

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:12:30 (EST) From: La-ex Email: None To: Relayed from EV UK email listing Subject: Hey, they stole that from me!! Message:

OK, I'm not bragging, or even saying 'I told you so', but isn't it amazing how this latest announcement from EV echoes what I posted just a day or two ago? 1)there are now 'Opportunities to Participate'.... (that's right, always frame it as an 'opportunity' for the poor premie....never the truth, which would be something closer to 'help, the gurus got his tit cought in a wringer, and we need your money, right now'.....or Hansi doesn't like his Aston Martin, or Monica needs a new wardrobe...no, none of that, let's call it an opportunity..) 2)The 'Opportunity of Propagation and Resources'.... (Once again, another 'opportuntiy' for the poor premie, this time to help out with propagation (please tell me why having a great life and being happy with the knowledge of all knowledges isn't the best advertisement for knowledge...didn't m always say that the premies are his billboards?....Why does he always need more money?....How about one happy premie radiating 'that experience', and telling their friends, and the friend getting that new 'auto knowledge'?....could it be that there are no 'happy premies', having 'that experience'? And 'Resources'.....isn't that just another name for 'MONEY'? 3)And now the poor premie can learn how to 'Focus and strengthen our efforts to support maharaji's FRESH approach'... (My god, if they haven't figured it out yet, after 30 years, how to do it, when will they?...or could it be that the captain of the ship doesn't have a clue on how to get out of this mess he's created, and the ship is going round and round in circles, like a dog chasing it's own tail?) (And of course, it's always new and 'fresh', and always your 'opportunity'....) I love it...LOL... Do you ralize how much we would have to pay to get these kind of laughs in other ways...movies, comedy clubs etc....quite a savings here.....I just wish it weren't so sad sometimes....

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:15:35 (EST) From: la-ex Email: None To: La-ex Subject: Of course, Yorum's in the picture too..nt Message:

aa

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:07:41 (EST) From: The Maharaji of Malibu's Email: None To: Relayed from EV UK email listing Subject: Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$ Message:

a slightly different spin each time; usually a story about how Maha boy loves us or is patient despite being held back from us-but opportunity=money to the collector-always cloaked in 'Rejoice, Rejoice for HE's going to let us write a check out to HIM or HIS cult organization

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:16:45 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: The Maharaji of Malibu's Subject: Re: Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$ Message:

Thanks for your post MoM, It took me an hour to read through the above troll crap before I got here to your post. I have been privvy to decades of this inner sanctum stuff. The Next Big Thing. Here we go again, shit it's kept us titillated for years. I so welcome the 'Cold Hard Facts' when it comes to all of this. As it allows me to push through my 'Gopi' conditioning and exercise a little used muscle called discrimination/integrity/Common Fucking Sense. The things I've seen.....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:53:33 (EST) From: ChrisP Email: None To: Relayed from EV UK email listing Subject: Re: Special Update Message:

The line 'to see how we can focus and strengthen our efforts to support' has gone beyond annoying, for me. This same old civilized-call-for-service line has long ago turned into a politically correct way of saying 'how much tighter can we still wring this cloth?' Hello out there, any drops left? 'Presumably resources means donations? - Actually 'support' means donations. 'Resources' currently means (yes) more 'videos, tapes, publications by which y'all can enjoy the Speaker's message (in case you've forgotten what the message is already)' sigh, ChrisP (how the cult has toasted me)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:01:49 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: ChrisP Subject: Warm Welcome CP.. You are Welcome (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:44:49 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Bai Ji Subject: Warm Welcome CP.. love your sense of humor [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:10:20 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: ChrisP Subject: the cult has toasted you? Message:

the cult has toasted you? What a title for an autobiography! - 'My life as a Pop-tart' (no offense intended, Chris P, honest).

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:51:50 (EST) From: Eric Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: the cult has toasted you? Message:

My dear C.Q. it is quite clear you and your fellow forum postees ( or shall I say ' Post Toasties' )have stopped postating yourselves before the golden bunion feet of the living master . You obviously are video deprived and need to gain clarity so you can give more money as well as precious time and effort.A Urine Wiess presentation is probably all you need to get you on track. All the best..............

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:14 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Eric Subject: lol, Eric. As it happens ... Message:

just last week I received a compilation of vids that Kelly has kindly put together. Sat through the Atlanta 2000 training vid. last weekend. What a mess! almost complete lack of continuity ... muddled half-arsed attempts at profundity, and non-sequitur after non-sequitur. If the Goo calls that training, all his trainers must be in a permanent state of bewilderment as to what he wants them to think and do. Ah well ...plus ça change, as they say. This weekend - the revisionism of 'Passages'. (or as somebody has renamed it 'Back Passages'. Well, I'll be a horse's ass)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:42:52 (EST) From: ChrisP (the other Chris) Email: None To: cq Subject: LOL :) Message:

toasted me totally - my crispy crumbs have had, heard and seen quite enough, thank you, but I'm still laughing from your joke below - good one cq! ChrisP, I skipped out of schizoid school

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:06:44 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Relayed from EV UK email listing Subject: M's *'FRESH'* approach ??? Message:

Fresh approach? Tell it to Monica. ((((((((((( ring-g-g-g-g ))))))))))) ***pick up*** 'Hello?' 'Hi, honey, this is Daddy.... is your Mommy near the phone?' 'No, Daddy, she's upstairs in the bedroom with Uncle PremPal,' After a brief pause Daddy says 'But you haven't got an Uncle PremPal, honey!' 'Oh yes I do, and he's upstairs in the bedroom with Mommy right now!' 'Uh, okay, then......here's what I want you do. Put down the phone, run upstairs and knock on the bedroom door and shout to Mommy and Uncle PremPal that Daddy's car's just pulled up outside the house.' 'Okay, Daddy!' A few minutes later the little girl comes back to the phone. 'Well, I did what you said, Daddy.' 'And what happened?' he asks. 'Well, Mommy got all scared, jumped out of bed with no clothes on and ran around screaming, then she tripped over the rug and went flying out the front window and now she's all dead.' 'Oh my God!!!!! And what about your Uncle PremPal?' 'He jumped out of bed with no clothes on too and he was all scared and he jumped out the back window into the swimming pool.....but he must have forgot that last week you took out all the water to clean it, so he hit the bottom of the swimming pool and now he's all real dead too.' ***long pause*** Then Daddy says, 'Swimming pool? Is this 555-7039?'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:54:30 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: All Subject: February Scheduled Satellite etc. Message:

Subj: February 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Date: 1/30/2002 11:00:47 AM Eastern Standard Time February 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events Saturday 2 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive ·    Vision's Sale from 12:00 a.m to 5:00 p.m Sunday 3 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive ·    Vision's Sale from 12:00 a.m to 5:00 p.m At 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: ·    Capture the Day' Taken from an event in Miami Beach, USA .  Duration: 46 minutes Sunday 10 th MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast:       Maharaji in San Francisco, USA – Nov. 23, 2001 One in a series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration:  52 minutes Sunday 17th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Preparing for Knowledge Event: This event is for people preparing to receive the techniques of Knowledge. People who have already received Knowledge are also welcome to attend. 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: ·    Maharaji in Alexandria, USA - June 18, 2000 From a talk Maharaji gave in Alexandria, Virginia on the morning of June 18, 2000. Duration: 58 minutes Sunday 24 th Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami. 6:00 pm: Introductory Event 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast: Maharaji in San Diego, USA - Nov. 24, 2001 Another program in the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak. Duration: 55 minutes BROADCASTS EASILY ACCESSIBLE Anyone who subscribes to DISH can access the broadcasts. Just give them the time and channel number, and tell them to tune in.  That's it. There is no need to contact Visions in order to view the broadcasts. The broadcasts are generally on Channel 9602 and occasionally on 9601.  Consult the DISH on-screen programming guide. Broadcast schedules are also posted on the Visions web site at www.visionsinternational.org SPONSORSHIP These broadcasts are supported by  the Visions broadcasts and materials sponsorship program (regular monthly donations) as well as through special contributions.  Sponsorship is available at any level to anyone who wishes to support the work of providing broadcasts and materials conveying Maharaji ’s message to people all around the world. For  information,  please call the toll free sponsorship line at 1-888-610-0500.  Your support is greatly appreciated. If you would like to purchase a copy of a broadcast, contact the Visions order department: 805-496-4777 x 1. To confirm information on video events, call: (305) 270-4768 English (305) 270-4770 Spanish For recorded information about events that Maharaji will be attending: (818) 889-0500 English (818) 889-1717 Spanish For those interested in finding out more about Maharaji and Knowledge: (818) 879-1500 English National Mail Order Library Phone #: (800) 603-0319 Other resources available: http://www.maharaji.net To order video and audiocassettes or satellite transmissions, contact: Visions International at: (805) 496-4777 or visit their Website: http://www.visionsinternational.org If you would like to be removed from this list or update your e-mail address, phone number or address, please send the information to: Thank you very much          Info Miami Miami Communications Team

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:53:38 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: M's favor to women Message:

Here is the full quote: +++++++++++ In ‘Divine Light’ – Guru Puja Special Printed and published by Shri Hans Publications, 80 Mildmay Park, London N1, tel: 01-254 2616 Excerpt from He Created Everything Satsang and answers from Shri Guru Maharaj Ji, Johannesburg, 3rd may, 1972 (page 202-217) Page 213 ……….. Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, have there ever been any women Perfect Master? M: Very good question, but I don’t understand it because you are limiting Masters in their bodies. Q: It’s just that all the famous Perfect Masters have always been men. M: What do you mean “a famous Perfect Master”? You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women more, he comes through a woman but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it. But people do get proud – they take the Rolls and put in on a turn-table, on a glass piece, and stand and looks at it. “Oh, I’ve got a Rolls,” and never drive it. After some time it becomes junk and it is finished. …………. Should all this drivel be on EPO?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:11:46 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Yep Message:

Not that long ago, Maharaji referred to the next perfect master as 'him' then qualified it with 'or her'. So which is it? Revisionism again or just winging it as he always has but we thought is was coming straight from the lord incarnate's mouth? I vote for posting on EPO, maybe under the heading "Dribble".

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:36:47 (EST) From: Or Call It Email: None To: Vicki Subject: 'Drool From The Master's Mouth' (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:38:06 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Or Call It Subject: Well, if, as Anth is always telling us - Message:

Well, if, as Anth is always telling us - 'God is snot', I guess that would give J-M's definition of 'drivel' a bit of credibility. Personally, I think his command of English is pretty good - for a Frenchman. But surely he doesn't have access to the BIG Oxford English Dictionary (the 23 volume one) does he? I think he means 'driveller'. q.v. drivel, n.2 Also 5 drevel, 5­6 drivil, 6­7 drivell. _. 4­5 dravel. [f. drivel v.] 1. Spittle flowing from the mouth; slaver, dribblings. Now rare. ?c1325 Old Age ii. in Relig. Ant. II. 210 Moch me anueth, That my drivil druith. 1388 Wyclif 1 Sam. xxi. 13 His drauelis [gloss that is, spotelis] flowiden doun. 14.. Voc. in Wr.-Wülcker 599 Orexis, drevel. 1570 Levins Manip. 125/43 Ye Driuil at nose, pus. 1586 Warner Alb. Eng. iv. xx. (R.) He..clear’d the driuell from his beard. 1697 Phil. Trans. XX. 50 The Snivel or Drivel that comes from the Mouth of a Dog..when mad. 1789 M. Madan Persius (1795) 54 note, The child..wet with drivel from the mouth. transf. 1780 J. T. Dillon Trav. Spain (1781) 211 Chequered with small hollow round grains..which I conceive are formed by bubbles of air..forming the drivel of the metal. [Cf. drive v. 26 c.] 2. Idiotic utterance; silly nonsense; twaddle. 1852 Blackie Study Lang. 2 As it begins with dreams, so it must end in drivel. 1860 W. Collins Wom. White iii. 474 The most abject drivel that has ever degraded paper. 1884 J. Sharman Hist. Swearing i. 21 We may have thought..his words the drivel of idiotcy. 3. Comb., as drivel-bib, a child’s bib to intercept the drivelling. 1831 Carlyle Sart. Res. i. xi. (1872) 52 Did he, at one time, wear drivel-bibs, and live on spoon-meat?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:49:54 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Vicki Subject: In the drivels' repository Message:

What's the EV-DLM Papers beside a drivels' repository anyway? [ M's favour to women ]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:59:49 (EST) From: Silvia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Please read your mail nt Message:

n

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:11:03 (EST) From: 210 Email: None To: All Subject: rawat's cult Message:

Not that anybody here is still wondering --- hopefully --- if rawat is a cult leader, but there exists no more certain proof of that fact than hiw own website. When a devotee clicks on his/her 1 or 2 or 3 minute ''hit'' of rawat, ''quotes'' appear on the screen and grow bigger, presumably to really stick in the eyes, then fade all the while pitiful wallpaper music is being fed into the ears. The truly telling thing about the ''quotes'' is that they say absolutely nothing. ''Life is life. Peace is peace. Love is love.'' Now, there is a revelation, to be sure. There is page after page of this stuff that says nothing. It's unbelievable. That his devotees will sit through this garbage and accept it all as apparently important new stuff and not even look at what is actually on the screen and think, ''What the hell is this guy playing at?'', astonishes me. Rawat himself has proved that his is nothing more than one more mind cult.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:05:03 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: 210 Subject: 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue Message:

'without kindness without love without understanding logic is worthless' Cultspeak if ever I heard it.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:11:02 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: 'logic is worthless' ? Message:

but this is the guy who worships macintosh computers.... gee--where's the love and kindness circuit on that logic board? maybe the power manager? the p-ram? could it be built into the CPU? the ROM? i'll have to write to steve Jobs and find out.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:08:03 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue Message:

Sage advice but what exactly does this have to do with Maharaji, Elan Vital or knowledge? I haven't seen kindness, love, understanding or logic coming forth.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: All Subject: OTS's post from below inserted here Message:

I hope this isn't forbidden but this post from OTS is about to disappear and thought others should see it. So I cut and am pasting it here. Gregg: I don’t think even THE PREMIES know the bizarre history of the Denver Residence let alone the new occupants and what went on there back in the early 70’s. Once M had us invite the neighbors over for a tea one afternoon to have the introduced to him and his mission while he was out of town. The movie “Satguru Has Come” was shown in the rec room along with tea and cookies, and I remember a few of the pretty blonde teenage girls in the group of 10 or so neighbors crying during the before and after satsang when they realized that they were living across the street from the real living Lord of the Universe. It came as quite a shock to them, I’m sure. Or the time M had a near anger meltdown when he returned from his travels and found that someone had removed from his living room wall the black and blue PLUSH VELOUR VELVET artist rendition of “The Last Supper” which he had purchased that past Spring at a local gas station (sitting right there next to the plush Elvis renditions). Bob Mishler had ordered the “artwork” removed from the wall of the residence and placed in storage. The entire world came to a standstill as the artwork was located and returned from the warehouse immediately. Or the time that M was taken sick with an ulcer, but misdiagnosed by Dr. John as some kind of liver aliment. He canceled his tour. He was in so much pain that he sort of zoned out of this world. A United Airlines stewardess (M. Johnson) was brought in to serve him meals. We could not understand who this person was and why she was brought in for this purpose. We learned later that they were an item an they later married. He was hospitalized for a couple of nights and we brought him home from the hospital in the Mercedes and he was as good a new. He stopped eating red chilies and the pain went away. Or the time M and his mother Mataji got into a playful snowball fight on the front lawn. She in her white sari, he in a black suit and brown boots. Nice picture. Or the hours I spent going over the intricacies of a pinball machine with M and revealing its secrets to him (shaking). Or the time I dropped a five gallon bottle of water on the kitchen floor one evening after dinner. “Mop on aisle 5!”

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:22:59 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: housemum Subject: denver residence Message:

you say you have stories to tell, so let's hear em. we got versions of some of them out in the boonies, but if you have firsthand accounts to relate, so much the better to correct the record. you mention something about the denver residence and 'new occupants'. so? who are they? how did it happen? i lived in denver for 10 straight years and never got this gem. out in new york, where dr john horton and Ron Colleta lived, we got a differesnt version of the ulcer story. Ron told everyone that during his tour across the north border (Boston, New York City, Detroit, Chicago) maharaji got sicker and sicker and finally had to cancel the rest of his tour so they could rush him to an emergency room for the pain in his gut. To hear Ron tell it, he said he was by maharaji's side the whole time, and that he watched Maharaji go into a coma for a while. When MJ came out of it, he was 'in another place'. He Motioned Ron over to his bedside and told him that 'he had been taken to a planet in a higher dimension where all the past Perfect Masters abided, in Eternity, and all they did was have Satsang, forever, with each other. He said he could have stayed there for the rest of Time, but they all told him he had to come back, that his work wasn't finished on earth. He didn't want to leave, but the told him he had to go. Then he found that when he tried, he couldn't find the way back. The Universe was too vast, and earth was so tiny, he got lost. And just when he reached the point of despair, this Goddess came to him out there in the cosmos, and rescued him. When he asked who she was and why she had saved him, she told him she was the Goddes Durga, and that she was sent to find him and show him his way back to us, because sshe was supposed to marry him here and help him accomplish his work.' Ron said Maharaji then looked up at him and began to weep, and Ron asked why he wept, and Maharaji told him 'How will I ever find her, Ron? I didn't know who she is! She didn't tell me how to find her! I opened my eyes, and here I was, back here in this bed, but she isn't here! Oh Ron, what am I going to do!?' And /ron said this surprised him, because he remembered something he had heard Maharaji say to him the last time they were in Los Angeles, and Ron calmed him down and reminded him 'You've already met her, Maharaji. Don't you remember? We were at the ashram in L.A and you pointed out that one sister to me, and told me she was Durga, and that she was going to be your wife someday? You've told me about her before.' Ron siad that at this, Maharaji got extremely agitated and grabed Ron's hand and shook him, and told him 'You must go and find her Ron, and bring her to me. I don't care what you have to do to get her here, just do it. I must see her at once. My whole mission depends on it!' So Ron went out and tracked down Marolyn, and got the message to her to come at once, that Maharaji needed her immediately, and she dropped everything and rushed to get there. mataji already knew about her, or guessed most of it, and was firmly against it, so Maharaji had to have someone rest Marolyn a secret apartment in L.A. where they could get together without Mataji knowing about it. Marolyn said that she would go there and wait, and Maharaji would come, and in her words, 'He would take me away to someplace in the Universe, far away from this world, and he taught me. And when we would come back into our bodies, I was so overcome that I was afraid if I stated crying, I could never stop.' so--whatcha got to add to that??

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:30:43 (EST) From: Flashback Email: None To: janet Subject: You already met her before Message:

MY VERSION: M saw Marolyn on an airplane when he was travelling commercially. He told premie next to him, while pointing towards the stewardess, 'I'm going to marry her one day.'

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST) From: Basic Truth Email: None To: Flashback Subject: Real Version Message:

Marolyn Johnson decided she wanted to be the bride of the living God, and worked her way from being a hippie/Southern California/airline stewardess, into the inner circle of said child God. She also worked it so she could be the stewardess on one of his flights. One thing lead to another and Marolyn engaged in statutory rape under the laws of the state of California. Prem Pal, the living god, liked the, hmmm, worshipping, fawning, sexual attention, and decided to kill two birds with one stone. He could stop having to hide the fact that he was fucking a woman 9 years his senior as a 15-16 year old, and get rid of his mother and take over the mission at the same time. So, they stopped hiding the ongoing affair, such as it was, and got married, telling no one, including his mother. The premies only found out about it after it happened. Marolyn got to be a living goddess, and the rest is history until both started fucking other people, mostly premies, and Maharaji took up with a long term mistress as well, Monica Lewis, which continues to this day, and Marolyn pulls an Eleanor Roosevelt/Jackie Kennedy and lives with it silently, as long as he doesn't flaunt it in front of her and the kids. Who knows what the kids think, probably they don't think very much.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:33 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Basic Truth Subject: A few more missing pieces Message:

Maryoln's supposed first encounter with M ...... Marolyn was a stewardess aka flight attendant to be politically correct in current terms. Anyway she was on a flight that M was on and he was playing with a ballpoint pen which he dropped. The pen rolled around and ended up resting right at his feet. M made no attempt to pick up the pen, he just stared at her as she was sitting close by on one of those flight attendant seats facing the rows of passenger seats. She waited for him to pick it up and he just continued to look at her like go ahead and get that for me. She got up approached M, leaned over and bent down to his feet to pick up the pen and what do you know, thats right folks, she got her first blast of darshan right there 15,000 feet in the air and the rest is history. Whoooooeeee baby,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:50:07 (EST) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: janet Subject: The Producers Message:

One of my favourite films is Mel Brooke's 'The Producers' about an unsavoury theatrical agent, Max Byalistok (spelling?) (ZeroMostel) conning a very naive auditor, Leo Bloom (Gene Wilder) with his fanciful stories in order to get him to fiddle Byalistok's books for the tax man. Reading about Ron Colleta's account of M's trip to the planet of the perfect masters and meeting with Durga on the way back - reminded me of of the Byalistok/Bloom relationship. Unsavoury conman and naive assistant, there you have it - 'Max' Rawat and 'Leo' Colleta (and all the others, inc myself, who believed this horsecrap)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:18:57 (EST) From: berni Email: None To: Dave Punshon Subject: ***FUNNIEST OF FORUM***** Message:

Hi Dave, I too love 'The Producers' and most of what Gene Wilder has done (especially with Richard Prior ). In fact I can imagine M in the guise of Gene saying ''You must go and find her Ron, and bring her to me. I don't care what you have to do to get her here, just do it. I must see her at once. My whole mission depends on it!' Janet's post is really the funniest thing I have read in ages.... 'To hear Ron tell it, he said he was by maharaji's side the whole time, and that he watched Maharaji go into a coma for a while. When MJ came out of it, he was 'in another place'. He Motioned Ron over to his bedside and told him that 'he had been taken to a planet in a higher dimension where all the past Perfect Masters abided, in Eternity, and all they did was have Satsang, forever, with each other. He said he could have stayed there for the rest of Time, but they all told him he had to come back, that his work wasn't finished on earth. He didn't want to leave, but the told him he had to go. Then he found that when he tried, he couldn't find the way back. The Universe was too vast, and earth was so tiny, he got lost. And just when he reached the point of despair, this Goddess came to him out there in the cosmos, and rescued him. When he asked who she was and why she had saved him, she told him she was the Goddes Durga, and that she was sent to find him and show him his way back to us, because sshe was supposed to marry him here and help him accomplish his work. ... Ron said Maharaji then looked up at him and began to weep, and Ron asked why he wept, and Maharaji told him 'How will I ever find her, Ron? I didn't know who she is! She didn't tell me how to find her! I opened my eyes, and here I was, back here in this bed, but she isn't here! Oh Ron, what am I going to do!?' And /ron said this surprised him, because he remembered something he had heard Maharaji say to him the last time they were in Los Angeles, and Ron calmed him down and reminded him 'You've already met her, Maharaji. Don't you remember?' It speaks for itself :) Been a bit busy lately with car crashes and such but one of these days Dave I hope that we will have that drink . berni

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:59:44 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: janet Subject: M urban legend # 29 Message:

It's funny how after all of these years this stuff gets recycled, the version I heard was that M was in the back seat of one of his mercedes being driven somewhere when he had this comatose out of body experience. His driver is purported to have pulled over on the winding malibu highway and herorically given him mouth to mouth resisitation to revive him. I do not remember the ailment that brought the attack on, something to do with the ulcers and exhaustion I think. M supposedly told the driver upon revival that he had just about decided to bag it in after 'going to where all perfect masters go in the afterlife.' Instead he chose to come back and selflessly serve mankind instead of hanging around in heaven with all of the other perfect masters. No mention of durga ji in this urban legend bullshit story, that element adds a whole new twist to this tale. I can't believe that once upon a time I sat with rapt attention listening to and believing this nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:09:14 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Hosting M's urban legends Message:

This is too funny. Maybe they deserve a special place in the 'best of forum' section ? Anybody wanting to compile them ?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:10:58 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: M's Urban legend Ulcer cause Message:

I actually heard this bandied about the community when M had his ulcer. M being perfect and all there had to be a justifiable MYSTICAL reason for his coming down with an imperfect health condition at his age. M WAS TAKING ON ALL OF THE BAD KARMA OF THE PREMIES AND HIS BODY FINALLY BROKE DOWN DUE TO THE STRESS CAUSED BY PROCESSING ALL OF OUR TRANSGRESSIONS AND SINS AND THUSLY HE SUFFERED THE ULCER INCIDENT. Yeah folks it was all our fault, If we hadn't have been sooo bad, so rotten and evil the lord wouldn't have had that ulcer

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:34:01 (EST) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: I hate to say this - but you're wrong Message:

I heard it from someone who was with Maharaji at the time that Maharaji said that the reason why he had his ulcer was to save the world from nuclear war. He said that he had to have the ulcer to prevent a wordwide thermonuclear catastrophe.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:24:26 (EST) From: someone who remembers Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: You're right Dave Message:

He digested world catastrophy for us. How nice of him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:41:52 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: God, they even revise the urban ledgends [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:01:59 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Lol Brian [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:01:47 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: M's Urban legends--speaking of which Message:

Does anyone remember the time he told us he ate our karma when we kissed his feet (Kissimee, 1978 I think). He said that if he even spilled a drop of the karma it would be enough to kill that tree and he pointed to it. Good grief. It was to defend his father after we saw Dad hitting people on the head with his cane to alleviate their karma. What a crock!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:52:55 (EST) From: wolfie Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: cause I've eaten to much sweets (nt) Message:

kkk

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:57:51 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: denver residence Message:

'He would take me away to someplace in the Universe, far away from this world, and he taught me. And when we would come back into our bodies, I was so overcome that I was afraid if I stated crying, I could never stop.' So what on earth was going on here? Was Marolyn totally deluding herself? Or even lying? Please let's not have a rigid party line here that's just the complete converse of the party line we all had before. That first sentence above, PLEASE somebody give me an explanation!!! I'm saying this because once after darshan I had an experience that lasted for 3 days where I felt I had been taken to some place far away from this world, and I saw and felt stuff that I've never forgotten, that echoed all the things you read in mystical scriptures etc etc. It felt like I was being shown a glimpse of the meaning of everything, and when I read that thing that Marolyn said, it reminded me. And actually, I cried and cried and cried too when this thing happened to me, because it was so deep and incredible. Having said that, it never happened to me again. This was in 1978. It definitely added to my faith, because it happened around M and it certainly wasn't autosuggestion, because I felt things I hadn't known before. In a way it changed me into a more relaxed, happy person, and made me quite certain from then on that there's something after death, and that's what's behind this whole universe is essentially benign. I can't describe it closer than that because it was absolutely beyond words. I also know that you don't have to have anything to do with M to have an experience like this; but if M is a complete fraud, why did this happen? In other words, I doubt Marolyn was lying at the time. Maybe that's kept a lot of us there for so many years - experiences of that kind that were undoubtedly real and profound, along with all the brainwashing and all the rest of it? I expect I'll get blown off the Forum now for having sacrilegious thoughts, but what am I supposed to do with these memories? M has certainly messed up with the Jagdeo issue by not dealing with it, and the stuff I've read on EPO has caused me to realise that I was probably in a cult, and that things were going on that would have made me walk away years ago if I'd known about them, etc etc. But what am I supposed to do with these memories? Deny them like I denied the niggling doubts I had when I was a practising premie? I find it all very confusing at times and any suggestions, clarifications would be most welcome. I have immense respect for everybody here - the honesty is stunning and such a welcome relief after years of brainwashed bullshit and autothink. But the danger of constructing an alternative reality that completely negates the one we had before, is that genuine experiences that for me were life-changing, get thrown out of the window without so much as a backward glance. What does anyone else think? HELP!!!! With love, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:59:16 (EST) From: Gregg Email: binduesque@yahoo.com To: Livia Subject: Re: mystical experience Message:

I know what you mean, Livia. My belief about those experiences (I had 'em around M on occasion; I still do years after leaving.) is that they had infinitely more to do with my state of mind than with Prem Pal. Whatever you choose to believe about the source of such experiences, one thing seems pretty clear - that there are ways to make such states more likely to occur. Meditating/praying at length, regularly, works. So does believing in a superior power and feeling grateful for the presence of that deity/energy/guru. I think believing in the power of a guru is easier than believing in 'God' or Jesus or some other apparently distant deity. I mean, he's right in front of you, dressed in a fucking Krishna costume, for Christ's sake! How much more real can you get? So, in a way, we were fortunate to be so gullible (I'm speaking for those of us who still succumb to the allure of small-e ecstasy). It may have opened some doors for us. Luckily, we didn't throw the God-given gift of reason out - at least not permanently - with the bathwater. Despite the Krishna costume, we were clear-headed enough to at last realize that the Emperor, in fact, was buck-naked. Ecstasy is so much sweeter when tasted in the spirit of freedom instead of slavery.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EST) From: Silvia Email: None To: Livia Subject: Maharaji protects rapist Jagdeo Message:

Do you know what happened with Abbi and Elan Vital/Maharaji? Do you know about their last contact? The fact that Maharaji allowed Jagdeo to travel around the world (where is he now BTW?) even knowing there were complaints against Jagdeo is truly a shame. We are talking about somebody who abused children. Amazing that Maharaji protected Jagdeo by not disclosing his hideout! MAHARAJI SUCKS!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:09:27 (EST) From: To Livia Email: None To: Livia Subject: They were both horney for each other Message:

It's as simple as that Don't fret too much. And they were both immature. He more than her

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:15:55 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: To Livia Subject: Re: They were both horney for each other Message:

I was told a couple months ago, that they still are, that they are very physical with each other. Hard to imagine. But then again, now that we know hash has been found under his bed, it's not hard to imagaine how they flew the friendly skies.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:02:41 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Livia Subject: Dear Livia Message:

What you felt was real at the time. One person who posted here stated that Maharaji actually manifested in his room. Many unexplained things happened to us because we were open to the possibility. I have been blasted like that before too, and it feels great, but at what personal cost? Have you ever noticed that your interest or search for something can be mirrored by the whole universe; suddenly, everyone seems to be talking about the same thing. We were looking for answers, feelings of ecstacy, and a deeper meaning to life and we got those things for a while. Wow, we got to meet and adore the Lord of the Universe (not many can boast that one!). However, there are always holes in magical thinking. Sooner or later it all disappears. We are left worse for the wear (sort of like a lifetime heroine addiction--so good on the way up and so bad on the way down). As time goes on, it takes more and more (effort, drugs, whatever the addiction is) to experience less and less. You may never experience those highs again, but you may. It might be difficult to ever believe in something that much again or want something that much again (this seems to be a necessary ingredient for these experiences). That all-out, no-holds barred willingness to jump in to Maharaji's river of maya allowed you to have that experience. Anyone who focuses on anything (athletics, other belief systems, inventions, etc.) is bound to have a profound experience. How can you help it? One-pointedness (fanatacism) leads to great things. You have your whole life ahead of you. At least, your life belongs to you now. It will take time to sort things out, but it must feel good to realize you are standing on your own two feet. The masta isn't carrying you across the desert--he never was. When your walls finish crumbling, you may still have an interest in K or some other spiritual endeavour. On the other hand, you may turn your back on the concept of soul, immortality, god, etc. It will be your choice. The centrifugal force of hitting the wall when you leave the Lard's Whirld of Knowledge ain't easy. As Maharaji said, 'What you don't know will hurt you [like when you find out I'm a fraud]. Be proud of yourself, Livia--a lot of our truth-seeking counterparts just can't face the truth. Here's lookin' at you, kid.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:43:58 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Livia Subject: You're fine Livia Message:

Hello Livia, I can't add much to what Brian and Janet have said to you. I compeletetey understand the experiences you are talking about and had them all during my premie-years and like you, associated them completely with m and k. The point is I still do have them but do not associate them to any belief system. They are just part of who I am. Anyway whose to say that most people don't have the same experiences? You sound really fine to me. What is happening to you is what REALLY happens to premies that DO follow their OWN experiences. Not m's interpretation of what it should be. Take care Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:59:55 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Livia Subject: I had one too livia Message:

I had one in my Knowledge session, and another the first time i walked withMaharji thru Heathrow airport in 1973. I can't reject those experiences, but i am real clear on how his direction in life and mine have diverged over time. I primed myself for those experiences, and he can't take them away from me, nor can anyone else. In the 90's, i came into a period of a few years of extraordinary awareness and new experience that i never expected to hapen to me, involving channelling (which i had never wanted to do) and communion with beings above the material plane, and having opened myself to it for a while, and having later decided to close it down and try to get back to a more normal life, I can speculate that those voices maharaji said he heard after his father's death were probably of similar origin, and that perhaps the power that he felt come into him during the 'peace bomb' was actually a taking over, a passing into, by a vaster entity that actually WAS who he tried to tell us it was. It was no more him, prem pal singh rawat, than i was the guys I allowed to channel thru me when I was doing it. But channelling can get tricky. ego creeps in. selfishness creeps in. people can get notions about being able to do it, and can lose the humility and sense of being a vessel that is so clear in the beginning. I myself went thru a phase of getting deluded and shaping grandiose plans out of it, that give me insight into what has happened to prem pal. I think it has happened to him. There is nothing in the message of the original propagation that ever indicated money, cars, planes, yachts, watch collections, abusing humanity, concealing assetts, alcoholism, addiction or any of the glaring flaws that prem pal has used his peculiar experience to promulgate. In fact, if the channel gets too swelled a head on them, the Bestowing Entity withdraws and denies the gift and leaves them to fake it--or be chastened and realize their mistake and return to the appropriate humility to serve the intentions first meant. I can also say that once opened, it is really hard to try to turn away and act like it never happened. I read the stories of other people who went thru something like this. JZ Knight of the Ramtha phenomenon had it happen to her. I think Jach Purcell of the Lazaris material did too. It takes a lot out of you, and at some point, you may rebel and want to seize your old life back, and just be yourself again. All I know today is, that when i used to have to go to other people who did channelling, whoever it was who wished to address me thru them always told me that I did not need the channeller to reach them, that they were with me regardless. When it started happening to me, I understood why. So PRem Pal singh rawat is NOT the power that used him, spoke to him, came thru him, in the beginning. He has co=opted and corrupted that service and perverted it into his own lusts and greeds and all too human limitations. He speaks of the Master in the third person because it IS a third person! It is not him! He has used it for personal gain, and it will not be forever. It came to him, and it can leave him, without notice. Just as we can. The place you went to in that three day experience is real. You saw how it actually is. And prem pal singh rawat has zilch to do with it. Like Bill says , life worked with the conditions you put upon it, and came to you how it could, but it could come to you more, if youtook some of the conditions off. Maharaji scared us into thinking it had to come from him, because it brought him things. Truth is, it can come to us regardless of him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:22:49 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Livia Subject: I hope I can help you Livia Message:

PLEASE somebody give me an explanation!!! Livia, you sound like you sincerely need some help with this, I am probably wading into deep waters here but I will do my best to toss out a life ring or two. First of all you do not have to throw out that which is near and dear to you nor do you have to deny the essence of what brought you to M&K in the first place. What is important today is for you discern what really is and has been going on with m and the cult and leave it behind you. Treasure the good memories, but don't get caught up in eurporic recall associating your personal experiences with those of the cult indoctrination. I feel that you understand whatever you experienced that you once attributed to M was not through him but from within YOU by YOU. Your longing, your desire, your need to fullfill something within yourself created by you alone the experience that you attributed to M. I also know that you don't have to have anything to do with M to have an experience like this; but if M is a complete fraud, why did this happen? You are right Livia What you experienced slipped through the cracks of the cult and m and took you to a place which is totally of your own experience way beyond the bondage of devotion to the master, guru, devotee relationship that he cultivates. This is where m falls short and becomes scandalous, fraudulent, he takes what is yours and claims it as his own. Don't let him get away with it anymore, take back what you gave up and become whole once again, for he can only rob you with your permission. You gave m all the credit long ago because at that time you were conditioned to do so and you were not able to accept the responsibility for your own experience, your own beauty your own free will. You don't have to do that anymore. With m out of the way there is one less limitation in your way to explore your own personal spiritual vision if that is what you want to do. Basically just learn to love and trust yourself again, you have all of the answers for yourself just nuture them. Things will start to gradually come together the pieces will fit just fine and your life will make more sense than it ever did. I hope this helps Love to you, Brian

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:25:56 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: I hope I can help you Livia Message:

Dear Brian and Janet, Thank you so much for your very kind words - I really needed to hear them; I was getting a bit confused after reading that Marolyn thing and the intense memory it brought up for me. I'm now thinking two things: maybe as you say, M really was a channel for a higher power in those days (I've felt too much to be able to turn round now and disbelieve in a higher power or essence of some kind). The more I think about it, I do think M was sincere in the early days, and maybe his intense desire to spread K to the world was so real for him that it connected him to something, and we all picked up on this and were carried along with it. There really was so much sincerity and longing for truth around in those days, and I know we all cared very much about helping to make this world a better place, and felt we could do this by helping M to spread K. For me it kind of died in the era beginning in 1977, when M suddenly put the emphasis on devotion above evrything else. (Although having said that, my 'cosmic 3 days' were in 78, but it was an isolated experience.) Generally speaking, I felt that the atmosphere from 77 onwards wasn't that good. I just didn't feel comfortable with it any more. There seemed to be more emphasis on devotion and surrender to M than on actually experiencing K and helping others to get to the experience of K. I rationalised this in my head by imagining that K couldn't be experienced without surrender, but surrender was becoming a more and more unattractive option. I lived in an ashram for a while at this point, but the love and joy amongst the premies wasn't the same as it had been earlier, it felt laboured and less real. There was little spontaneity and some of the premies around me began to seem robotic, even scary. A few years later I was definitely finding a lot more love and sponteneity completely away from the premie world, so that's where I went. However, the experiences I'd had from 72 - 76 (and that one in 78) had been so real that it kept my faith alive. I suppose looking back now I should have exited around then (post 78). Maybe M really did lose the plot at that time, and whatever had been coming through him (this is just a theory!) left him. After that, we were merely going through the motions and trying to do what he told us in the hope that the spirit of the early days would come revive? For me it never did, really. In fact, I really feel I wasted those years 78 - 83, and I feel angry with myself about it. I'll probably start feeling angry with M about it too, soon. But I suppose it's in the past and I'll have to let it go. Fortunately from 83 I really started following my heart (as I think a lot of us did) and putting my energies into other things, and I'm so glad I did. The other thing I'm thinking is that if you long for truth, whatever, and live with sincerity in the best way you know how, which for us at that time was to devote ourselves to the person we thought was the LOTU, then from time to time out of this world experiences will inevitably occur, because of the intensity and sincerity of the longing. And 'longing for truth' doesn't only have to mean 'spiritual truth', - if it's a genuine need to know truth, then a courageous seeker shouldn't afraid to examine objective truth too, and use his/her discrimnation to work out what's really going on. The huge problem for the remaining premies is that they are forbidden by the person they still see as the LOTU from examining some objective truth, and this is where it all comes tumbling down. If a premie is a sincere seeker of truth, the thing that brought him to M and K in the first place, then by being afraid to look at the contents of EPO, he has turned from being a seeker of truth into an obedient pawn. And that is the tragedy for the premies today - actually it's quite heartbreaking. The magic, the love, the depth, the joy have all but gone but they daren't go anywhere else. Brian, your post to me made me cry; it released something, thank you so much. Love to you all, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:19:41 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Livia Subject: Bravo! I knew you could do it, Livia Message:

And 'longing for truth' doesn't only have to mean 'spiritual truth', - if it's a genuine need to know truth, then a courageous seeker shouldn't afraid to examine objective truth too, and use his/her discrimnation to work out what's really going on. The huge problem for the remaining premies is that they are forbidden by the person they still see as the LOTU from examining some objective truth, and this is where it all comes tumbling down. If a premie is a sincere seeker of truth, the thing that brought him to M and K in the first place, then by being afraid to look at the contents of EPO, he has turned from being a seeker of truth into an obedient pawn. And that is the tragedy for the premies today - actually it's quite heartbreaking. The magic, the love, the depth, the joy have all but gone but they daren't go anywhere else. I knew you could figure this thing out for yourself. These are some amazing insights you have shared with us today, as good as it gets. The work you have done here is very helpful to the rest of us especially the numerous lurkers who read and observe yet another person reclaiming themselves from the myth. The thanks go to you today Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 08:50:53 (EST) From: JS Email: None To: Livia Subject: Re: I hope I can help you Livia Message:

I agree with you Livia...there's no need to construct a 'new reality' concerning any involvement or experiences you might have had while around maharaji and being a premie... I think that the search for truth demands that we guard against that sort of stuff, which as you say, is just the flip side of what the cult said and did for all of those years... I absolutely feel that when I got into k and m, that it was my own individual search for truth that landed me on his doorstep. It seemed to supply me with something that I needed at that time...it seemed to work, although there was always a nagging feeling inside me that something just wasn't right with the whole thing....I had the feeling that there were things I didn't know that would bother me if I did know them....an inexplainable feeling that not everything was right... But like many others, I continued steadily until about 2 years ago (1972-1999) when too many things simply told me to question this whole thing and to ultimately leave it. When I did, I 100% knew that I was following my heart, and that in my ongoing search for truth, it was absolutely the right thing to do. What a breath of fresh air it was, when I exited! Yes, there were chains of fear, doubt and guilt, but once I broke through them, what a freedom! Actually, in exiting, I took some of m's advice about life, in order to help with the process. Also, when I did leave him, and realized what a burden he was on my system, I actually began to experience life in a much more satisfying,beautiful way....those wonderful experiences he talks about of a simple, natural, peaceful feeling were much more accessible now that I had left him, and they were also mine, not his. In terms of finding the truth, EPO has been a valuable tool, although I admit, many times there's a lot of stuff you have to wade through to get to it. I believe it is imperative that you know everything about a supposed teacher, especially when the claims they make are as grandiose as m's have been. It is imperative that m stand up and account for all of those things he said, and now denies ever having said. It is imperative that these things are known BEFORE someone considers receiving knowledge, so that they can make an intelligent, informed decision on just what they are getting into, and who they are going to be involved with for the rest of their life, and supposedly, the next life as well..... M's irresponsibility is held in check in many ways simply because of the existence of EPO. It's telling that it could be so threatening to him, and obvious why certain people are trying to destroy or discredit it. As far as experiences go, I too had powerufl experiecnes from festivals etc., but I have far better ones now. They are mine, and not dependent upon someone that I don't respect or trust. Isn't it funny how M says proudly, and arrogantly, that HE doesn't need a 'middle man'? He has said that many times...he doesn't need a religion, because he has a direct connection...he doesn't need the 'middle man'.... But what he then does is, is to trap all of his followers into believing that they DO need a middle man, which of course, is him! He has them in psycho/spiritual bondage, and if he really wanted to free them, he would tell them to get their own lives and quit the 'devotion game', that only seems to benefit him, and disempower them. I can't tell you how many premies I know who still don't know what they want to do in life, and feel that they continually need to see him for 'clarity' or a 'tune up'....they are still waiting for something that will not come to them until they wake up and realize that is up to them to do it.....somehow, they still think he will supply some 'missing link'....in some cases, it really is quite sad, and sadder yet because m steadfastly refuses to accept any responsibility for his part in the deceptive game...it's always the premies that are confuesed or wrong, never him... I feel that your experiences, and the intensity and meaningfulness of them, is completely dependent on the sincerity and involvement you are willing and able to bring to the table yourself. I see this in the church I go to, and the yoga practice I am involved in..... Life is beautiful, especially when you are free... It's even a beutiful mind... I just wish m would have the guts and authenticity to face his own problems, and stop screwing with the premies lives...they have no idea how deeply conditioned they are, until they finally step out of m's 'golden cage'....he can help them with that, but unfortunately it would involve him telling the truth, which would cause most of the premies to leave.... Best wishes, livia... Hope I didn't confuse you too much with this early morning rambling....got to get my coffee and go to work....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:18 (EST) From: Silvia Email: None To: JS Subject: Have you posted here before? Message:

Hi JS, I don't rememeber seeing your name before? Are you new? Nice post, sincere.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:38 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: JS Subject: to all of you Message:

I just want to say to all of you have posted today on this thread: a big heartfelt thanks. You've helped me to remove another layer. I hope I can be there for you all as much as you've been there for me. Lots of love and hugs to all of you dear people Livia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:15:40 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: janet Subject: So whatcha got to add to that??t?? Message:

That John Hampton told us little premieji's Marilyn couldn't stop crying when she moved into the ashram, and one day Maharaji sent him to get her, so he fetched her up to the residence. No more details, that's all. Also I remember a quote that had Maharaji saying he was such a magician, that a perfect master could bind himself to and free himself from creation at the same time ie his coma. But what I wanna know is, if his 'mission' depends on Marilyn, then what's Monica got to do with it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:01:03 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Vicki Subject: i'm winging this part Message:

The way I gethered it, I guess Marolyn's role was to marry him and make him more earthy and relatable by having kids and being a family man. Anchor him in a more mundane lifestyle, supposedly. Never mind the green card. Oh no--look not at that man behind the curtain! So either that part was finished when the kids became pretty much adults, hit the age of consent or drinking or driving or legal emancipation-- or maybe marolyn's aneurism put her out of the running? kh'oo knows, dollink--? call em as you see em. that's what i do. so whats this about the denver residence?? you were saying?...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:13:48 (EST) From: Ulf Email: None To: housemum Subject: LOL... Message:

Here is another one 74 m was here at the residence , and felt some pain in his back , or perhaps it was in another part of his body , i am not sure about where the pain was But as the nigth , went on , he was in so much pain that one of the premies , had the service to bring him to the hospital. When they came inside the hospital , he was in so much pain that nobody could come near him , he was screaming like a dog. The poor premie was talking to the staff, and then to M At last , the lord of the universe,, allowed them to look at him Then... They told him , that, nothing was wrong , he was just fine .. M and the premie went home happy togheter. And the premie left the cult 2 years after L.O.L

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