Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 30, 2002 To: Feb 04, 2002 Page: 1 of: 5


Joe -:- Passages Spin -- comments, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:50:17 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- Sartorial Saffronization -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:44:05 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Barbara, great post... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:19:58 (EST)
__ Francesca :~) -:- They loved that form of dedication -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:17:21 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Religious trappings -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:19:16 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Good point.... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:41:16 (EST)
__ AJW -:- It's another smokescreen. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:13:49 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Internal propaganda? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:29 (EST)
__ cq -:- Sandy Collier's Spin -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:06:34 (EST)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:05:27 (EST)
__ __ salsa -:- good post! ARTI -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:26:11 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- ***BEST of FORUM*** -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:39:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- YUP***BEST of FORUM*** Suedoula [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:43:51 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:49:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:25:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:27:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji claimed he never read... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:28:49 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- attached? - repulsed more like... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:38 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:30 (EST)
__ Jim -:- I don't see anything wrong with it -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:45:13 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Saris were too unflattering... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:50 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- The secret of saris.... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:04:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Green Papaya -:- The secret of fitting in... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:49:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Skin like an elephant's knee? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:10:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- You gotta admit . . . -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 19:10:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Green Papaya -:- Life in the Melanoma Lane -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Okay, that does it..... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:19:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- We'll have an Inidan Latvian Lunch for Cynthia -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia...Yum....My mouth -:- waters just at the thought [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:34:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gotta point, Pat -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- LOL, Pat... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:25:01 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- I wish they'd been even more Indian -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:52:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Bully Sheep, LOL [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:41:42 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Pass the barf bags, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:18:51 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:44:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:08:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Correction -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:45:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also...more EV lies -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:19:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ P.S. -:- Re: Also...more EV lies -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:40:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- another smoking gun! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Don't click on link above (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, I did! Now what are you going to do to me? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:20:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- So did I, and spent ten minutes looking! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:58:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Is that a gun in your pocket or .... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:27:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Pat, I delete...... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:56:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia, At least it's not -:- THAT tunnel...the blue one! [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:32:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- light at the end of the tunnel? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:09:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Buxom Latvian Lasses (v. OT) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:17:31 (EST)

salsa -:- Where can I find the CACa files? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:30:14 (EST)
__ CAC Victim -:- There is a link on EPO -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:50:21 (EST)

WT -:- Why so much hate? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:46:32 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Why so much hate? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)
__ __ Kelly -:- How did I do that? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:51:17 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: How did I do that? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:11:40 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- We all played our parts... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:35:12 (EST)
__ Jim -:- What if the DDR were still in business? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:59:56 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Welcome WT -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:36 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog :=) -:- Re: Why so much hate? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:26:44 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- ***Best of Forum*** [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:58:31 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:55:42 (EST)
__ __ WT -:- Re: I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:56:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Why? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:26:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Excellent point, Vicki... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:57:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Well said, Chuck! LOL -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:15:54 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- EPO -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:46:03 (EST)
__ Loafsoft -:- hello Wolf -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:20:46 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- hello Wolf -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:48:32 (EST)

Steve Mueller on M's Greatest -:- Crime and Tragic Legacy -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:13:24 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: good bye -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:02:31 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Steve, please... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:51:47 (EST)
__ gerry -:- What happened to Steve's post??? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:12:21 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Re: What happened to Steve's post??? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'd Like to know, too... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:48:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Steve,s fine, just the hiccups... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:54:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I posted God's Grandeur specially for him -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:30:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I know, and I have a big mouth... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:39:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know, and I have a big - me too mouth... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:06:12 (EST)
__ JHB -:- I don't know about this -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:40:56 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: I don't know about this -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:17:11 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- I don't know anything -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 19:36:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I believe in Love... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:03:19 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Wow what a Great Article -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:33:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- The best bit (imho) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:45:23 (EST)

Sulla -:- No Michael Nouri tape on sale. Sorry! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:52:23 (EST)
__ Francesca :~) -:- It was a DVD and from what I heard ... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:19:37 (EST)
__ __ Sulla -:- So, it wasn't that easy, huh? -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:13:15 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: It was a DVD and from what I heard ... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:34:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- OT -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:32:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- Correction: so it was VHS -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 01:29:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Correction: so it was VHS -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:31:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- And methinkest they have ... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:42:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I'd love to see that video -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Ahhhhhhhh......! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:03:42 (EST)

Chris P -:- To Kelly: Info re KIT training -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:14:59 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Thanks Chris. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:29:49 (EST)
__ jude -:- I didn't know this site existed -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:43:25 (EST)
__ __ Dermot -:- Ttake a sad song and make it better, huh? :) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:39:25 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Hey Jude. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:38:02 (EST)
__ __ Can Someone pleeeeze -:- Delete this troll? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:10:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Do you mean the one -:- who never uses a name when he posts? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:40:54 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- What about this, Jude? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:48:46 (EST)
__ __ ChrisP -:- Re: I didn't know this site existed -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:38:19 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- You're OBVIOUSLY knew -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:20:35 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- David Roupell, you can't stop lying, can you?? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:20:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: David Roupell, you can't stop lying, can you? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:57:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Special ability?? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:14:42 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Jude, honey -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:01:24 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Psycho Boot camp -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:30:17 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Wow! thanks Chris P -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:08:33 (EST)
__ Patsy -:- Thanks Crispy - excellent. [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:56:23 (EST)
__ Francesca :~) -:- **BEST of FORUM*** a must read! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:22:29 (EST)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Re: **BEST of FORUM*** YES! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:44:43 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: **BEST of FORUM*** a must read! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:29:43 (EST)
__ __ __ ChrisP -:- To Deborah -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:34:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ***BEST OF*** to ChrisP... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:29:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanks ChrisP [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:15:19 (EST)

Loaf -:- The shock of meeting old Premie friends -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:15:44 (EST)
__ Bryn -:- Wotcha! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:30:29 (EST)

Cynthia -:- cq's Quote From Below -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:33:29 (EST)
__ cq -:- At last, I'm recognised as a literary giant ... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:18:47 (EST)
__ __ ChrisP -:- Quote lovers of the world unite.... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:19:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- LOL--funny stuff ChrisP [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:08:36 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- LOL! I like the 'meditator's motto' (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:27:04 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Same here! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:13:33 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- And - Same here! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 10:56:01 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Re: Knowledge is the cheese -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:34:59 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Knowledge is the cheese -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:26:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- You know a lot Cynthia! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:19:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- You know everything, Cynthia -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:33:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You know everything, Cynthia ())()) -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:39:30 (EST)


Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:50:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Passages Spin -- comments, please
Message:
Following is a verbatim transcript of a section of the video Passages -- A Master's Journey, except I summarized Glen Whittaker's long-winded and absurd story about people being turned off by saris.

Anyhow, I wanted to get comments on what people think about this. First, any comments on using 'saris' (especially referring to THE LATE 1970s) as an example of what Maharaji had to work so hard to eliminate as Indian traditions?

Second, referring especially to Tim Gallwey's comments, does anyone know even ONE person, just ONE, who left Maharaji because they were so attached to the ashrams and other "Indian traditions," and hence they preferred them to Maharaji and when he (supposedly) got rid of them they left for that reason? And does anyone know of even ONE person, who left Maharaji because he or she preferred the 'Maharaji religion' (ashrams and saris, I guess), which is what the video says happened?

Does anyone besides me find Gallwey's condescending lecture on this subject offensive to people who no longer follow Maharaji?

Here is the transcript:

Narrator: By the end of the 1970s, Maharaji had successfully introduced knowledge into a number of countries. But he was becoming increasingly aware of the need to separate knowledge from its Indian cultural packaging. Too many things that are simply a part of Indian culture were considered, incorrectly, by Westerners to be an integral part of what Maharaji was offering.

Sandy Collier: We brought a lot of Indian attachments with us, you know, that since knowledge came from India, that somehow we had to adapt some of the Indian things, like our Western culture wasn't good enough.

Bobby Hendry: The mahatmas came to give knowledge and it was a way of spreading knowledge. The ashrams then, I found, were a way to discipline your life to practice knowledge. Unfortunately, we held on to the Indianness (sic) of it instead of the real practice of knowledge and incorporating that properly into our lives. [Did Bobby Hendry ever actually live in an ashram, BTW?]

Glen Whittaker: [Glen tells the story of going to speak before the a young conservatives club (invited by his cousin), and that people were interested, but when they showed up to hear more, they were put off by 'the while sari brigade."

Linda Pascotto: I was never very attracted to all the Indian things. So, when I came to hear him speak and I saw these women wearing saris, I thought oh, I don't want to wear a sari. Do I have to do that to listen to him and be in his company and receive knowledge? Because I didn't want to do that.

Ron Geaves: From day one he resisted attempts to create a religion around him. It seems to me that throughout his life whenever we have attempted to build any box around him, he's always broken out of it and when he does there are those who prefer to be in the box.

Narrator: For some people the changes that needed to take place were confronting. They had become attached to a lifestyle they associated with Maharaji and knowledge that was based on Indian tradition.

Linda Pascotto: I had friends who lived in the ashram who stopped practicing when the ashrams closed, they felt betrayed, abandoned... [Hard edit, Linda is cut off mid-sentence]

Tim Gallwey: He [Maharaji] undertook the challenge to get rid of the fluff, the conceptions that might have attracted people, that in fact some people loved more than they loved the real thing and that left people with a choice. Do I love my quote 'religion,' my 'Maharaji religion,' or do I love my actual recognition, my actual understanding of what I am seeing and experiencing. And some people said, 'no, I'll take my religion, thank you very much (laughing), and some said this is real enough that I'm gonna stick with it.

________________________

Comments, please. Anybody know anyone, ANYONE, for which that's true? Ever heard of anyone who was so "attached" to a lifestyle that was based on "Indian tradition" that they left because M didn't want them to live it anymore? Does anyone else who was a premie for more than 15 minutes find this idea insane? I mean, I suppose it's technically possible that there was such a person, but I sure never heard of it.

Also, note that Linda Pascotto's comment is meant to imply that people felt betrayed BECAUSE they loved the ashrams and wanted to stay in one, and stopped practicing because M closed them and they were hurt because they loved them so much. Absurd?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:44:05 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sartorial Saffronization
Message:
If anything, sartorial-wise, would have run me off the cliff, it was those polyester skirts and jackets we got post-Millennium (I guess the finance people who brokered the deal figured those clothes would be better on Mars, our air-lifted destination after M '73).

I remember wearing one of those forest green poly long skirts, a poly suit jacket (which made ya sweat like a farm animal), with the outfit splendidly finished off with baby's first summer tan earth shoes. One day I looked down and all I could see was this vast expanse of pilled green with my feet looking like Mickey Mouse poking out from under a tent. That was it for me. I never wore any of that crap ever again...too much pride and vanity on my part, sins or no. A poly sari would've been better any day of the week. ;)

I started wearing mid-calf skirts with normal shoes, and soon thereafter I began to see less and less of those poly monstrosities. Talk about POLYmorphous perversity.

I'm surprised no one's floated the idea that we all left because we didn't have a pestilent and cadaver ridden river in which to bathe.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:19:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Barbara, great post...
Message:
Sartorial Saffronizaion. An illiteration with a punch.

When I read your post it reminded me of another cult, the Scientologists, and a website I found recently by ex-cult folks.

Get a load of these uniforms! Scroll all the way down the page. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

Fondly,
Cynthia

http://www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/
[ Ex-Scientology Photo Page ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:17:21 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: They loved that form of dedication
Message:
Joe,

If anyone still loved the ashram when they closed, it was because they were living in the 'stable' from which M picked his instructors, and unless you were on the PAM track, the only way to get close was to be an instructor.

So for those who wanted to totally dedicate their lives to M, they were no longer going to be 'special' doing it. That's one thing I can think of.

The sari thing is absurd. The only people who wore saris came from India, except for Maharaji's own wife. I was around from 1973 to 1985, and NO premie that I knew wore a sari -- it was never even a fad amongst the wanna be's. Maharaji was always very modern and wore suits. It was he who liked to be quaint and camp it up Indian style, along with his crown and the famous wobble dance.

'I wish I could shimmy like my sister Kate
she shakes it just like jelly, on a plate'
-- traditional blues tune

Sari you guys, we were there. The most anyone did was wear those Indian whites, some of the guys, you know the kurta and pants thing. But hippies were ALREADY wearing that stuff before they ever heard of M.

As I said in my post below on the Michael Nouri video/DVD, the only people who believe this stuff are premies. All the old press articles and the accompanying photos bear out what the premies looked like. Anyone who was around that Kittredge building and some of the other premie enterprises can tell you that suits were the way to do business, not kurtas.

LOLs,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:19:16 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Religious trappings
Message:
Sure, that's the party line. It was all those concept crazed Indians that forced us (and M by the sound of it) to take on the trappings and create a religion. NOT!

Many ex's that I've spoken to say the same thing: 'Oh, yeah we really projected a lot of stuff on M.' Well, I felt the same way and was really glad when I went back to see M for a K review in the mid-90's and got the idea all the trappings were behind us. Then the rude awakening at Long Beach where the big D of devotion was what it was obviously still about.

I'll have to play devil's advocate here. There was one premie around the mid-80's who told me he missed the ceremony and ritual of Maharajism. He therefore took up a similar guru-devotee relationship with another teacher. The person he revered was Swift Deer. He was part Native-American shaman and part Irish Viet Nam vet. Swift Deer had quite a following among the Miami premies at that time. His 'events' consisted of ritual gatherings including smoking a peace pipe filled with tobacco and marijuana. He did a very special (read expensive) ceremony called the Kadoshka (sp?) wherein he and his wife would have everyone disrobe. Those two would then come around the room and inspect the participants genitals and declare what type they had. A man would be told he had a 'tipili' meaning tipi pole shaped organ, etc. Woman were 'diagnosed' as having a 'tiger lilly', etc. I'm absolutely not making this up. I could name notable names but would not want to embarrass anyone. Needless to say, in such a 'revealing' environment, marriages were broken up and worse.

There are several other notable ex's, including one highly visible SAM (security around maharaji) who fell for the Mafu scam, similar to Ramtha. Mafu was touted to be a several thousand year old being. Again, they flocked to her seeking the ritrual and religion abandoned by M. Brian S, her group was in Portland. Ever heard of her?

These examples are certainly extreme and not at all representative of the thousand who have left M&K. I just couldn't resist pointing out how one bizarre religion can encourage others. Having said that, I'm certain that virtually all of those seeking other religions were also very disappointed with M's lack of integrity and sought another teacher they could trust.

Richard, was sohung but now I'm tipili

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:41:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Good point....
Message:
You would think that if what Tim Gallwey and Ron Geaves were saying had any validity, then premies would have left the Maharaji cult, and looked for another, more religious or Hindu/traditional, trip to follow so they could continue the 'Indian tradition lifestyle' they just loved so much, that they rejected Maharaji when he supposedly dropped them. I suppose there exists somebody who did this like you mention, but I sure never heard of it.

And the other point is that the Hindu rituals are still happening, both darshan and arti being prime examples.

The other logical disconnect in Gallwey's spin is that Maharaji, himself, like Cynthia said, was the major instigator of the Hindu rituals. It wasn't like they existed at the beginning and he gradually got rid of them, because the historical truth is that things like Krishna outfits, darshan, Arti, Holi, etc., actually INCREASED in frequency until the 80s. Maharaji was laying the Hindu rituals in ever increasing helpings on us (maybe not saris, though :)), rather than vice versa, and in a fashion the direct opposite of someone who was trying to 'separate' knowledge from 'Indian cultural traditions.'

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:13:49 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's another smokescreen.
Message:
Hi Joe,

I think this 'blame Hinduism' spin is just another smokescreen. The nub of Rawat's trip is that he's the 'Living Perfect Master', just like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Mohammed. And on that level, nothing has changed.

The latest cult publications still refer to this status, albeit obliquely. The premies around Rawat believe this, as do most of the remaining old-timers.

You're dead right to expose the new revisionist cult line on the 70s. It's yet another attempt at damage limitation. They're coming up with new explanations of themselves ten to the dozen. But at the core of the cult is the Captain, still sitting on his throne waiting for the opportunity to get his Krishna crown out again. (Maybe he still wears it in his living room.)

And he still surrounds himself with people who would go out and tell the world he was Peter Pan, and could fly, if that's what he asked them to do.

It's a bankrupt, discredited personality cult, with a morally bankrupt, confused person at the head, heading for another type of bankruptcy.

Yes Joe, it's absurd.

Anth, still likes curry.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:29 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Internal propaganda?
Message:
It seems that the video was put together as propaganda for the premies, most of whom probably have had some misgivings about what happened over the years. This gives a very simplistic rationale, from the high priests of the cult, no less. The ones who were around at the very beginning, have had knowledge the longest, and who are also willing to blame themselves and the other premies for all the problems.

Linda Pascotto told me that the video was not intended to have any contrary views because it was put together for people, 'who enjoy knowledge.' I asked her why she might think that 'people who enjoy knowledge' would be less interested in historical accuracy, but she didn't respond.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:06:34 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sandy Collier's Spin
Message:
So Sandy 'spin-doctor' Collier says 'We brought a lot of Indian attachments with us, you know, that since knowledge came from India, that somehow we had to adapt some of the Indian things ...'

er, Sandy, the 'Indian attachments' wouldn't include things like ... Krishna Crowns, ... celebrations of the Hindu festival 'Holi', ... full-frontal pranams ... the concept of 'lotus feet', etc. etc. would they?

We were the ones who brought that to the West, were we?

PS
Joe - next time you've got the Passages vid on your player, check out the scene where the anonymous narrator (as were all the interviewees, which says something in itself, but I digress) - where the narrator starts speaking, right near the beginning of the film.

There's a few shots (in black & white) of an early 70s demonstration, yeah? Now, look at the writing on the placard that one of the demonstrators is holding.

Got it?

Feel free to share it with the Forum?

Like Kelly said about them using the music to Arti (played almost subliminally on solo guitar at the end of the film) - is someone taking the piss or what?!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:05:27 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please
Message:
Are they trying to say that we were out there looking for an Hindu religion to follow? Then we could trot out our saris and arti trays and altars, start cooking indian food, move into ashrams, live a renunciate lifestyle and express our devotion by kissing someone's feet? That we even had a clue what 'maya' was and were looking for a way to get beyond it? And Maharaji came along and conveniently filled our need for a master to worship? Not how I remember it. Sorry, I NEVER heard M say NOT to do any of those things.

Wait, there was that darshan line when I distinctly remember him saying 'Stop kissing my feet! Who do you think I am, the Lord or something?' No, I must have imagined that. Then there was the time where he said 'Take this knowledge, go home and practice it, be happy and you never have to come and see me or kiss my feet or give me any of your money so I can buy myself expensive things ever again. Just leave a thank you note at the door when you go.' Hmmm, wait, don't think he said that either.

My fave part is how he resisted all the attempts at creating a religion from day one. The Krishna crown -- oh I bet he was fighting tooth and nail on that one, too. 'I won't wear that crown, I won't. Those people out there might think I am God or something. And I refuse to dance. No way.'

I think I just realized that poking yourself in the eyes for long periods of time can cause delusion and amnesia.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:26:11 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: good post! ARTI
Message:
In India today people still sing arti to maharaji, and yes, he hasn't stop them from doing it each time, with the ghee candles too.

You are my father, you are my mother....you are the Supreme Power in Person, I bow down at your feet... MASTER. Oh yeah, we made it all up. Many of us went literally nuts trying to fit him in our lives and now he wants to make us look like lunatics; what a farce!

Who is writing the tell all book? ())

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:39:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: ***BEST of FORUM***
Message:
Yes, girl, you deserve it on this one.

It just doesn't get any deeper, does it?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:43:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: YUP***BEST of FORUM*** Suedoula [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:49:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there
Message:
You know, being serious now, I think that there is a bit of a point to be made that many premies were indeed looking for an Indian guru trip or were, at least, a bit enchanted with the prospect and flirting with the idea. 'A real life guru of your own!' -- kind of thinking. This is only relevant in the early seventies, mind you, a few short years after even Sammy Davis Jr. and all those other 'hipsters' wore their Nehru jackets and beads on Johnny Carson, after normal, stupid kids riding the trend of the day camped out in the pages of Be Here Now ('the Guru will come to you when you're ready'). I know I, personally, wanted something like that.

HOWEVER, what these guys don't mention is that, as soon as we fell prey to Maharaji's siren song, we quickly dropped all that stuff. Maharaji, we understood, was so much the 'real thing' we could relax all that silly guru stuff. Ater all, it was never really us anyway, just another vain attempt to find the truth within us.

Afterwards, it was as if we could have our cake and eat it too. Maharaji, the Lord of all Lords, transcended the east from whence he came. He didn't need that tradition. Like everything else in this universe (and any others, by the way), he created it. All the same, that tradition was rich in the grace of small, proto-Maharaji's, guys like Jesus, Krishna, Guru This, Swami That. Thus, we were welcome to dip into the writings of guys like Nanak, Ramakrishna, Kabir, just like Maharaji, his Holy Family and the Mahatmas did, for prophecy, confirming scripture and inspiration. But we weren't bound by it and didn't need it. Maharaji was always very clear on that score and thus so were we.

The main thing is that I never knew a single premie who didn't seem to understand this. So if Maharaji wanted to get Indian with us, say play a little Holi or something, that was fine. But we weren't dependent on it. Our myth was all about how vastly superior we were to such trappings, however relevant.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:25:01 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM
Message:
In fact, that 'vastly superior' stuff exists to this day. I know of an active premie that seems to relish every opportunity to poke at my mother's 'religion' because in their 'vastly superior' mind, they don't need that 'religion' stuff. What the premies are doing, is, uh, so vastly superior to all that. No scriptures, no rituals.

I mean, all you need is a pile'o dough, some time off work for programs, and a satellite dish. Yeah, baby.

--f

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:27:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM
Message:
Plus, tailored Armani suits, $20,000US dresses, any car imaginable, (just have a ''fundraiser''), the very top of the line make up, a large allowance for impulsive shopping sprees, and

A very special, handmade, container for your KRISNA CROWN.

I agree, Vastly Superior Indeed.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:04 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there
Message:
Good points, Jim. And just why does he still, to this day, quote Indian saints and poets, if he's trying to get away from Indian influences? He always wants his cake and to eat it too, although
he did make fun of birthday cakes at Long Beach and called them a waste of resources. Now that was funny, inlight of his boat and jet.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:28:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Maharaji claimed he never read...
Message:
the Gita, or any of those Indian texts which he so often quoted in the past and still quotes.

He said (paraphrased) I never read that, it's just what I was told.

The freak.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:38 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: attached? - repulsed more like...
Message:
For a super-devotional era (late 70's) aspirant and then premie, I got interested in spite of the Bhakti bullshit, not because of it. I became involved because K was the one Truth and Guji the one-and-only provider of said product - and for that reason alone.

I was at that time well past my teenage hippy phase and much more into an urban punk-type attitude musically and culturally. So my first sight of charnamrit, first singing of Arti, first hearing of the need to 'love', 'devote' and 'surrender to' Maharaji were anathema, not to say a profound embarrassment.

Ok, for those reasons alone, getting rid of them was probably a smart move, propagation-wise in the West, but to pretend the initial attraction for any of us was the curry flavour is so wrong as to be outrageous.

Even then, we were jokingly and disparagingly referring to our 'rites and rituals' - and so were the initiators, and M too, I think. We all knew from the outset, that the trappings were just trappings. (M was already giving satsang in Western business suits and we liked that.)

Because we secretly knew the whole trip was an inner journey - a unique connection with (call him what you like) - the Lord of Creation, the primary source, the living incarnation etc.

If these pathetic revisionists are remotely concerned about the historical truth, they could maybe mention the elephant in the cult's living room. That they will not, or can not, merely demonstrates the elephant is still in that room.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please
Message:
Well, Joe,

The answer to your question is NO, no, no. The only women who wore saris that I know of in goomraji's world of ashrams or in the community were Indian women. And of course, Marolyn Rawat and Claudia Rawat!!

During the 70s the one who wore the most Indian clothes was Maharaji! Krishan pants, crowns, malas, shoeless feet on a pillow set upon large platforms, at large festivals named by him as: Guru Puja, Hans Jayanti, Holi, etc.

I don't remember m ever sitting up on the stage and saying STOP! when we screamed Bolei Shri.....at the top of our lungs, nor when Charanand cut his album of devotional songs which he sang at the festivals on stage swinging his arm and clicking his fingers to the beat with bliss all over his face, dressed in what? Indian clothing.

I don't think I want to see that video after all. Plus, I will go one step further than you and say that these people weren't 'spinning' they were lying!

I'll take a barf bag, too.

Cynthia
P.S. My transcription is coming along well. Not too much longer, but definitely, it is worth the wait!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:45:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I don't see anything wrong with it
Message:
The fact is, Joe, I never wanted to wear a sari myself. So she's got a bit of a point there, don't you think?
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:50 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Saris were too unflattering...
Message:
Well, I though saris made people look fat, so I was against them from the beginning. I mean, look at Mataji.

I'm fairly certain that all the women, and a few of the men, I knew who were premies had a closet full of saris and were livid when the directive came down, I think in 1979, in the late, late, 70s, that they weren't supposed to wear them anymore. They left in droves. Maharaji had to stare at the ocean for weeks, to figure out how to deal with the difficult sari problem, as this remarkable historical documentary video shows.

Only people like Linda Pascotto, Glen Whittaker and Tim Gallwey, who were so connected with their 'experience' survived the sari ban. Yes, it was very difficult for people. :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:04:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The secret of saris....
Message:
Yes, Joe, they make svelte ladies look fat but they also make fat ladies look....well...like they're wearing a sari. They cover a multitude of sins and big butts but not double chins.

Could you imagine Mata Ji in some lime-green lycra stretch pants? She would have looked like an avocado or a green mango.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:49:58 (EST)
From: Green Papaya
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The secret of fitting in...
Message:
Could you imagine Mata Ji in some lime-green lycra stretch pants? She would have looked ike an avocado or a green mango.

Yeah, but in Miami she would've fit right in, 'specially if she wore one of those damned Jiffy Pop hats and, if she caught enough rays, she would've looked like an elephant's knee like all the other grey panthers down there.

Wolfie's, dairy bars and cafe cubano...that's all I remember from Miami. })

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:10:10 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Green Papaya
Subject: Skin like an elephant's knee?
Message:
To complete her Miami Bitch outfit she would have had to have her hair in a bouffant all puffed up to hide the bald spots and dyed blue or even pink and also wear a halter top showing all the liver spots on her tits while you sat trying to eat your pastrami sandwich at Wolfie's.

I think I am starting to prefer saris. :C)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 19:10:32 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You gotta admit . . .
Message:
she did wear a mean pair of glasses. Edith Prickly would have been proud.

;)

Susan

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:25 (EST)
From: Green Papaya
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Life in the Melanoma Lane
Message:
You betcha, skin like an elephant's knee, and so brown it's almost purple. I guess that's why those Jiffy Pop hats were so popular--for those bad hair days when it was too much trouble to cover the bald spots, and you're late to meet your buddettes at the Dairy Bar.

Btw, what does one eat at a Dairy Bar?

Waitress: What can I get you, Miss?

Elephant's Knee Lady: Oh, you called me Miss. I'll remember you in my will. Let's see...I'll have a bowl of half yogurt, half lowfat cottage cheese. A side of sour cream sprinkled with brown sugar (gotta watch my health, dontcha know?). And for dessert, I'll have a quart of vanilla ice cream, with hotfudge and tons of whipped cream, none of that Cool Whip crap. Got any nuts?

Waitress: Oh, you want the Death Wish Special... (and sotto voce to her co-worker): Call 911 and tell them to get here in 'bout half an hour.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:19:49 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Okay, that does it.....
Message:
Now I have to go out and buy another outfit for the much anticipated Latvian lunch. You guys are so mean. Do you know how long it took me to find those green stretch lycras and Jiffy Pop hat?

-Vicki, who wore a sari once, just once, but they made me do it or I couldn't stay at the birthday party

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:34 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: We'll have an Inidan Latvian Lunch for Cynthia
Message:
We can all wear saris and I'll cook an Indian feast for Cynthia. Yummy. Now that has made my mouth water. Must have lunch - fried curried potatoes, fresh chapatis and mango chutney. Have fun.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:34:48 (EST)
From: Cynthia...Yum....My mouth
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: waters just at the thought [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Gotta point, Pat
Message:
How about:

Mata Ji in jeans. Or better yet, hold on to you lunch:

Maharaji in speedos!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:25:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: LOL, Pat...
Message:
I think the only thing I still like from being in the cult is Indian food. In Hartford there was a great little Indian restaurant named 'Bombay' that made fabulous food, at reasonable prices.

It was in the south end of Hartford which was predominately an Italian neighborhood where many of the Hartford premies lived, as well as the sister's ashram.

I love the stuff, but given that ya can't even get a decent pizza in Vermont, I haven't had the pleasure in quite some time.

Anyone remember when M went on a diet during the 70's? Yup, I know it was true. Whoever was the cook at the time had the task of removing all the fatty stuff from his favority Indian recipes, like butter, and he started eating fresh fruits.

It did clear up his zits for a while, too.

Cynthia, never wore a sari, never will

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:52:13 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I wish they'd been even more Indian
Message:
When I first attended a satsang program, it was a public program at Leeds University and I had an hour to kill. I sat at the back and was completely repelled by the altar, the white cloth, the big picture, the bowing and the strange chanting of 'bully sheep' or something like that. Now, if I could have been equally repelled when I next attended satsang several months later, by, for instance, everyone wearing saris (including the men), then I might have run a mile, and the next 25 years might have been different for me.

So yes, they weren't Indian enough.

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:41:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Bully Sheep, LOL [nt]
Message:
Hi John,
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:18:51 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Pass the barf bags, please
Message:
I sat with Linda when she came to our little community about a year ago. She was really quite charming and nice, and actually, the politest person that has ever come through here. She insisted on paying for all her own expenses, and since the hotel had already been paid for, donated the equivalent to the community fund. Some of us went out to dinner and she told the story of the day she got knowledge, or the next, Maharaji was riding in the back of her camper. There was some program going on. She had a picture of Sai Bubba, or some such person, in the camper and felt embarressed. He looked at it and said 'He's cool.' I'm paraphrasing but it's true. Imagine my surprise at finding out Linda's background and connections.

At no time did she ever express anything about Indian trappings, infact, we were eating in an Indian restaurant with an Indian cc.

I've never heard one person that is a premie or is an ex, express one of these sentiments. They sound like convenient spin doctoring.
It's a pathetic attempt to divert attention from the real, factual issues. So that's where these trolls learned their tricks from.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:44:50 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Linda Pascotto
Message:
I sent an email to Linda Pascotto on the ashram issue and how her comments were used in the video. It appeared to me that her comments were taken out of context and used for a purpose that perhaps she did not intend. I wanted to give her the change to explain, but it was almost as if she didn't know what I was talking about.

She responded and said yes, there was a friend of hers, who is no longer a premie, who felt 'betrayed' when the ashrams were closed. I told her lots of people felt that, but not because they 'loved' the ashram lifestyle, but because they began to question Maharaji because he had harrangued people to stay in the ashrams for years before, when they were never really necessary in the first place, and people had been damaged as a result.

She seemed not to get the connection or seemed unable to comprehend that there was any distinction, or pretended she didn't see one, but she also summarily blamed all the problems in the cult on unnamed 'power hungry' people, and for whose actions, Maharaji has been, unfairly, blamed. I emailed her again, but she didn't respond.

Yes, she did seem nice.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:08:55 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Linda Pascotto
Message:
I think Maharaji was quite smart in hand selecting her to head up participation service. He specifically asked her. She said she didn't have that kind of experience and he said things like 'You cook, you decorate, you garden, you've had to deal with schools (from her child/children). Don't sell yourself short.' So she said yes, she filled out the participation form, and voila! got the job. I had no idea of her wealth, so I highly doubt she was ever in the ashram. I had no idea of her connection to Valerio. In short, Maharaji made a calculated move. Get her in a noteworthy position and she's tied to the cause even more. Can you imagine what she's seen, heard and observed, all buried in her brain, filed under 'denial'? He doesn't really care how he uses people or how he does it. I bet he laughs at premies falling for these chess moves and despises the stupidity at the same time.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Linda Pascotto
Message:
Actually, she said in the video that by the time Maharaji got married, she already had a child. I don't think she ever lived in the ashram. I understand her maiden name was Linda Cohen and she came from a wealthy family.

I'm not surprised she got the 'job.' Her husband is not Valerio, but Alvaro Pascotto, who is M's lawyer and one of his most trusted legal advisors (I think an aviation lawyer), and is also a lawyer at Latham & Watkins in Los Angeles.

So, Linda obviously had an inside track on the job.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:45:39 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Correction
Message:
Alvero Pascotto works for Irell & Manella in Los Angeles, and not Latham & Watkins in Los Angeles. It wasn't one mega-huge law firm, it was another one. Just to keep the record straight. :)
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:00 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Linda Pascotto
Message:
That's what I found so funny. She sounded generally surprised that he would think of her in heading up such a big position. Which leads me to think, she had been busy with her family and domestic life.
He almost had to convince her to take this new job he created. The application was just a formality to cover his rear. Remember, he doesn't have anything to do with Elan Vital and it's operations.
Or so we've been told!
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:19:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also...more EV lies
Message:
Amazing that Linda Pascotto said Maharaji personally asked her to head up participation at Elan Vital. See, Elan Vital claims that Maharaji has no management control over what Elan Vital does. Now, we all know that's crap, but her admitting that he makes management/personnel decisions is kind of strange in that light.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:40:59 (EST)
From: P.S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Also...more EV lies
Message:
This was at the same dinner. She said she didn't tell people the story but felt okay about sharing that. There were only four of us and I'm sure she never dreamed the gopi she was sitting next to time was about up!

I feel bad because she was so nice and has been duped just like the rest of us, but then again, I don't because she has to know what's going on with Abi and these revisionist lies.

The one flash of anger was when she said school teachers should have to take psycho/personality tests before they are allowed around children. I gathered her own child had been harmed, but that was just an assumed deduction.

It's a shame really. There she is, a perfectly decent human being, the one with money no less, and more right to its power than Maharaji, and she was very genuine. I don't like how this cult uses and abuses and mixes up brains so they can't see anything clearly anymore.

We get accused of hating, but really, I feel nothing but compassion for premies like Linda. She might be a hardened honcho by now, but I'll always remember her humbled in her new service. Very sweet.

In the infamous words of Miss Sylvia Salsa 'Maharaji sucks'!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:03 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: another smoking gun! (nt)
Message:
another smoking gun! (nt)
[ cq ]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:58 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Don't click on link above (nt)
Message:
Don't click on link above - hotboards glitch
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:20:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Well, I did! Now what are you going to do to me? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:58:40 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: So did I, and spent ten minutes looking!
Message:
Couldn't find any guns tho, smoking or otherwise.

Chris, why don't you just tell us what you want to say?

John the ten minutes older.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:27:16 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Is that a gun in your pocket or ....
Message:
...are you just pleased to see me?

Nope, mo smoking guns but very good porn......b)

John, I thought you would chastise me for making silly jokes that you have to delete before putting the archives to bed. :C)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:56:42 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, I delete......
Message:
....nothing. I do thank you for the concern you have expressed (several times) for my workload regarding archives, but I don't have the time, the tools, nor the inclination, to delete posts once I've taken an archive. Even with these limitations, I am still 3 months behind with putting archives on line, and currently even those that are online don't work since the move.

John the visionary who can see the light at the end of the tunnel

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:32:57 (EST)
From: Cynthia, At least it's not
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: THAT tunnel...the blue one! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:09:22 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: light at the end of the tunnel?
Message:
What's your secret? Got a couple of buxom Latvian lasses helping you? I sure hope so.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:17:31 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Buxom Latvian Lasses (v. OT)
Message:
Pat,

As we've been open with each other in the past, I know I can trust you, and that this won't go beyond these four walls, but there is a buxom Latvian lass that has been on my mind recently. Generally, Latvian lasses are slim, in fact, as my nephew said when he was here two years ago, 'Riga is full of supermodels' (which is true for any British man visiting). So to this buxom Latvian lass - should I raise a large family with her?

John the seeking advice.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:30:14 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Where can I find the CACa files?
Message:
Is there a link?
Thanks,
s
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:50:21 (EST)
From: CAC Victim
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: There is a link on EPO
Message:
On the home page of EPO there is a link to a statement by 12 of the victims of CAC, that explains what happened.

Obviously no actual copies of the CAC attack site are included, because the Maharaji cult used material that was false and defamatory and hence EPO didn't want to further disseminate the lies that the premies tried to slime us with.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:46:32 (EST)
From: WT
Email:
To: All
Subject: Why so much hate?
Message:
Hi,
I am new on this forum, scrolled through some of the information and found it very interesting. Since I am also an ex-premi many of the stories and information really touches me.
So at first here my shortstory (if you are interested for more details write me a mail):
With age of 19 I received Knowledge by Mahatma G. Charnanand in Frankfurt/Germany, whre I lived. At that time, I was very depressed, searching for a meaning in life, for a way out of my own darkness. I guess today you would call this state of mind depression and I guess many of us suffered such a lack of ability to see a meaning and joy in „normal“ life.
Soon I entered the Ashram in Frankfurt and stoppet studying. What really impressed me on the movement was the company of so many people who where just feeling like I did and of course the deep experience of meditation , which I know now is not belonging to GM or his techniques (which are neither his invention) but which is inside of me as a natural part.
During the years I saw GM on a lot of programs. Even on one of the first programs I saw him on an Ashram-Meeting and had the strong feeling, that he is personally completely different than what he was showing to the outside. I had my doubts during the years but actually I never could leave, because the fear to live in the „normal“ world was too great. In 1982 or so the ashram-scene broak down. I left and through some very hard years I tried to make my way back into the normal life. I suffered mental diseases like depression and sleeplessness and at one point I had to tell myself very strictly: Stop now thinking of the past and concentrate on your life now and try to open for the beauty that there is. I studied again, started a job, met my wife and now I have a nice family with all ist ups and downs. I still experience sometimes very deep depression, sleeplessness, fear. At that moments I feel, that I am missing something inside of me. But I do not want to endulge in any kind of cult and beeing „saved“ again. Rather I try to accept these times as a part of me, of my personality, as something that I have to deal with and not escape from it by drifting off in a fantasy-world of a cult. I feel, that I have to go „down on earth“ and accept life and myself as they are, also accepting the pain and sorrow that sometimes is involved in living. I guess there is a lot more to say to this but I stop now because I want to say something else.

When I first read the articles represented here, many of them really touched me and I could feel, how much pain and suffering are involved. But what I cannot understand is sometimes the great negativity and hate with which GM is described. Why so much hate? Is this the way to get rid of him? Each one of us involved in the cult, played a more or less active part in it, braught even other people to it. Once John Lennon asked what happens to war if nobody goes there. So immagíne what happened to GM if nobody went there. I feel, that I am responsable for all what I did. There where always a lot of people around me who told me, that its a cult and that the Guru is fake. So why blame him, where I first of all have to blame myself? And actually I do not feel all that negative about that time. I was searching for something and I had the strong feeling of finding it and I had great moments and experiences. These moments and experiences where in me, the cult just brought them up. I met a lot of very valuable people and seekers like me and I appreciate that. By completey denying this time and blaming GM I deny and hate a part of myself. And thats what I really dont want.

What I blame GM for is that he claimed and,as far as I know, still claims to be a spiritual perfect teacher. If he was a real teacher, he would have stopped our mass-dropping-out of „normal“ life and would have brought us to a more realistic and mature way of spirituality. And of course he would have said, that he is just a normal person teaching some meditation-techniques. Then I wouldnt even mind if he took money for it and made a nice living, like many professional mental trainers do. I think, he is his own victim much more than we are. And he is not a man who is able to see his life and his mistakes. When people in Latin America „vanished“ the greatest problem for their relatives was, that it never became certain if they were dead or not, although there could be no doubt that they were. The relatives were unable to finish their suffering and hope and this was much worse then just loosing a relative. In the same way I think, if GM would be man enough he would stand up and say: „OK folks, I made a mistake, sorry, but I am not a perfect spiritual teacher any more“. This would help a lot of us to close this chapter of our life and be able to open up for other chapters. And it could even help to analyse the process of cults and help developing mechanisms for prevention. But I guess people like him are never able to really take responsability for what they did because it would be too much for them.
I see the past not as completely negative but as a part of my life. Of course it was a dead-end-street but at least I experencied and learned a lot. Here in Germany we have a lot of people who are confronted witht the fact, that their former life is now „wrong“. Just immagine the people in the former DDR or like my father who participated in 2nd world war as a young man. So this happens to people always and all around the world and they manage to deal with it. What I feel important is to tell people and especially young people about the dangers and automatism of entering an endulging in a cult. To give them real help at hand and talk to them when they are feeling bad and depressed. Cults are like drugs and they should be treated like that. But they have to be treated in a way that is proper and sensible. And that is by seeing them as a phenomena that accours, where teacher and diciples are both guilty and responsable for the illness of that process.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: Re: Why so much hate?
Message:

[ Kelly ]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:51:17 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: How did I do that?
Message:
I've been investigating how to post a link, but not got around to trying it, and then, out of the blue, it just happens. Really, I didn't do it, it wasn't me. It must be grace!
Sorry WT
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:11:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: How did I do that?
Message:
Maybe you typed your name into the url box or one of hotboards gremlins did it for you. b)
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:35:12 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: We all played our parts...
Message:
... and Maharaji played his. I accept full responibility for becoming involved with M & K as being my decision. I also insist that Maharaji be accountable for the part he played.

He deliberately decieved many people, and used his whole schtick to enrich himself financially, at great cost to many people. Information was and is deliberately hidden from premies, and lies deliberately told. Many people are angry because if they HAD known the full truth, if things had not been hidden and they had not been lied to, they would not have allowed themselves to be used and abused by M or his organization. Maharaji's deceptions made all that possible. It's only natural that some people would be quite angry, especially anyone who made great sacrifices, based on Maharaji's deliberate deceptions.

You may want to examine how much your reluctance to feel angry toward Maharaji could be part of the conditioning to not be critical of Maharaji, that we all experienced. Allowing yourself to be angry at him, even if only for a short time, can be very freeing, and can cleanse you of any last remnants of fear that may be lurking in your mind, that were instilled by M.

Anger towards M. or criticism of him was NEVER encouraged in the premie world, and indulging in that here can be very liberating in breaking any lingering influences M. may still have on us, even influences that we are not conciously aware of.

When I allowed myself to be angry about M. and his deceptions, it made it a lot easier to then let go of it and put it behind me and move on. I don't really feel angry about it now, not passionately anyway. Mostly it just seems embarassing now.

This place is great for finding information for deconstructing one's experience in the cult, so one can understand it and really untangle oneself. Many of us done that, and now just hang out here occasionally because we have made some friends here, and we like to welcome new folks and encourage them to not be afraid to examine their envolvement in the cult, and assure them that it's OK to be angry if that is how they feel, they won't turn into rotting vegetables!

You may even meet some old friends from the past! There is anger here, but there is also humor and fun and even some nice reminincenses of people and events from the past. Just like the real world, there is a bit of everything.

Welcome to the Forum! :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:59:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: What if the DDR were still in business?
Message:
WT,

What if the DDR was still in business and -- what was the guy's name? Eric Honacker? -- was rich as hell and telling anyone who'd listen that the excesses of the communist regime were all everyone's fault but his own?

It's a slightly different dynamic. The fact is, the more we go, the worse for the cult. It's a simple reality that if, hypothetically, we all just stopped tomorrow 1) Maharaji would be the happiest man in America for a few days; 2) No new facts and information would pass through this online clearing house for our own enlightenment, entertainment and edification; 3) fewer premies would be able to finally see their way out like you fortunately did; and 4) we wouldn't have all the fun that we have, from time to time, sorting through one of the wackiest stories of modern times.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: Welcome WT
Message:
My first impression of the forum also was that the exes indulge too much in hatred but as I began to read more and get to know people here I realized that it really was a healthy anger.

You said: ''I still experience sometimes very deep depression, sleeplessness, fear.''

I also thought that I had understood my involvement in the cult and had not been badly affected by it but as I began to examine the damage that Rawat had done to me by his bad teachings I also became angry. My anger healed me, made me strong and put the blame where it belongs - on Rawat. I no longer feel depression or fear and I sleep like a baby every night.

I don't hate Rawat but I am angry at him even if the harm that he did was mostly because he was so ignorant. However he has also become unimaginably wealthy out of his guru business and really does not have any regrets that he has hurt so many people.

Righteous anger can be very healing and empowering. Have you ever stopped to think why you still feel depression and fear? Maybe it is because of unresolved issues concerning the lies that Rawat told us.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:26:44 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog :=)
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: Re: Why so much hate?
Message:
WT,

I too wondered about that! I certainly have no hate for Maharaji, and felt that people posting here who did hate him were somehow being unreasonable, over-emotional, touchy, cantankerous, quarrelsome, offensive, ill-humored etc.

Somehow, I stubbornly felt that I was the standard for how people should feel toward M and that those who expressed hate were wrong. I had been put in charge of how people should feel. Rather seeing people as different, I erroneously concluded that people who thought differently about M than me, were stupid, bad, sick, etc., that is, until I read a post below by Mike Finch entitled:

Categories of premie and ex-premie

Please read it. IMHO this is truly a “Best Of.” In the post Mike sensibly states that just as there are different types of people there are different types of premie, and they would quite naturally have different reactions to M and leaving M. For example, a 'socialite' premie like me, would have a completely different reaction to M and leaving M than a 'gopi' premie. Well duh! How obvious! Why couldn’t I see that before?

As is so well illustrated in the “Myers-Briggs” personality test, people are different in fundamental ways. We all have different temperaments and we do violence to others when we assume their differences to be flaws and afflictions. To each his own. Different strokes for different folks! Differences are not flaws! I’m now a chastised man.

Mike's post finally put it all together for me and it will definitely answer your question.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:58:31 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog :=)
Subject: ***Best of Forum*** [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:55:42 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate
Message:
I view the forum more as group of souls, uniting and supporting each other in love and discension in undoing the programming, spiritual rape, lost time, emotional and psychological damage our involvement in the cult gave us.
I don't like to post on the forum but I have a need to tell you that this avenue, the forum, helps those who read and participate understand just what the hell happened to us and why, why were we vunerable. How could we be so stupid, in other words. Unraveling that little understanding is most crucial in the ability to move on, totally free from Maharaji and his fraud.
I look at this forum as a public service. It has helped and is helping right now, many, many individuals who spent a big chunk of their lives believing a lie. Maharaji's agenda was and continues to be a lie. There are still one too many people who are captured by it. You were lucky, like me, I got out in 1982 or thereabouts. You may very well have different issues if you had spent 25 or more years involved. In fact, you might feel hate. Just imagine, if you had spent 30 years faithfully supporting Maharaji and were just now finding out the truth about him? What would be your reaction? I'm curious. Just try to imagine. In all sincerity, I would like to know.
But for the majority of the time this forum is populated by some incrediably loving and sensitive people. I've never read that anyone wishes Maharaji dead for pete's sake.
They wish for what you mentioned in your post, for Maharaji to be truthful and to make ammends. Geez, if Maharaji started choking and turning blue on his Porterhouse Steak in front of me I would be the first to attempt the Heimleich maneuver. I'd even do an emergency Tracheostomy, with glee, using his steak knife if necessary.

I'm so sorry that is all you see here, hate. I think for the most part people are sad here, completely upended, needing comfort and reassurance, but any hate is more born out of frustration and anger, why did he do this to me, when is he going to say he is sorry, when is he going to attempt to make it right, when will he read my letter and answer it, when will he even talk about my most deepest hurt?

I hope this gives you a different perspective on what is occuring here. You're welcome to post and get to know some of the great people here.
Your post could be a journey. Have you considered adding it to the Journey's entries located on EPO?
I have many fond memories of my life as a premie. It wasn't all bad but frankly, in hind site, I could of done without it. But hey, life happens.
And gently, I say this to you, if you suffer from depression to the point that it gets your attention, time to treat it. I do not invalidate what you wrote by saying this, not at all! I would say this if you were sitting next to me at lunch and you talked about it like you did here, I would say the same exact thing.

Welcome and Godspeed,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:56:32 (EST)
From: WT
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: I'm sorry that is what you saw here, hate
Message:
Thanks Tonette for your long reply.
Maybe the title of my posting was a little bit irritating. I just stept over this forum and read through some of the postings. My expression at first was, that some postings are quite negative and actually I felt not very comfortable with that because I think, I also share my responsability in forming this cult. Maybe to express my first expression was a little bit too fast and actually my mainissue was to tell my story and come in contact with you people. What I see is a lot of honesty and trying to help others. That is great and I think it already helped me understand more. And believe me, I can understand why people feel that hate towards GM and his unability to take responsability. But I alos feel that we all have to share our part of responsability and I feel that I have to come to a point where I can accept this part of my life with love and a positive look.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:26:17 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: Why?
Message:
Why do you want to accept the blame that rightfully belongs on Maharaji's head? Better to accept how you were conned and dupped and forgive yourself then take on blame that is absolutely none of your responsibility. It would be like an abused victim taking the blame for the abuser. It's called the battered wife syndrome. In this case, I think it's the battered premie syndrome.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:57:09 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Excellent point, Vicki...
Message:
We all made our decisions to become involved with M&K, but with FALSE and incomplete information. If we had known then what we know now, we most likely would have made very different decisions. We were very deliberately mislead, decieved and USED. We are NOT to blame for the deception, that must be put at the feet of he who perpetuated it.

The Battered Premie Syndrom is very real, but like battered wives, they often can't see the abuse while they are still involved in it. Even after rejecting and leaving M, there can be a reluctance to critisize him, a need to not really see it in a negative way. I know it was like that for me. But eventually, it was just easier to admit to the ugly parts, that yes, I was duped and used. And sure, there were bad AND good parts to the overall experience. I just would rather not gloss the bad parts over anymore, in an effort to spare my ego some humiliation.

It's easier to just admit I was duped by a greedy crook, and be done with it! :P

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:15:54 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Well said, Chuck! LOL
Message:
Oh, the ego does get humiliated, doesn't it? Premies, the smart ones, the chosen ones, the ones who could tell a real,live, living lord! At the very least, a real, live perfect master. Crickey, it's a bit humbling to admit we were duped by such a fraud.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:46:03 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: EPO
Message:
WT,

In my introduction to this forum on EPO (www.ex-premie.org) I advise new readers to read the pages on EPO before the forum. The reason for this is that the forum is an ongoing conversation, and it's not always easy to understand the context if you are a newcomer. However, if you are familiar with EPO, then a lot of what we talk about here makes a lot more sense.

Anyway, welcome! Did you know we have another German ex-premie posting here who calls himself Wolfie?

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:20:46 (EST)
From: Loafsoft
Email: None
To: WT
Subject: hello Wolf
Message:
i agree that villifying and demonising M is a trap in itself.. it is not politically correct on this forum to say anything nice about him.. BUT I have to say that after years of projected 'devotion' and saccarine love for maharaji, it is really balancing and healthy to regain ownership of your own feelings.. whatever they are.

So I personally dont knock people for venting their spleen toward him.. he has earned it just as much as he 'earned' their love.

The whole business of analysing him is, for me, very important beacuse it helps me to understand all the better my part in the great darshan swindle - - M has been a central figure in my life for many years..I dont want him there any more, but my past is affecting my current relationships and so I need to lay a few ghosts to rest before I am in a fit shape to move on.

I need help also in articulating my thoughts.. and some of the posts here which when I was first exiting seemed bitter and angry and un-worthy of attention.. I now see the beating heart of a social concience behind them.. and I thank those people for not softening.

We are a wide range of humanity here.. with a vast spectrum of stories and memories and glimpses of an individual truth.

As an exiting cult member (for this I can now accept as the truth)I do find myself with strong reactions to some peoples posts and their tone. I think I have a problem with male Authority figures... I feel sometimes defensive and 'got at' because for all my life as a Premie I NEVER allowed my feelings to be questioned, or even critically examined.

20 yrs practicing has left me hyper -sensitive in many ways.

BUT...

There is growth here... and the company of truth.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:48:32 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Loafsoft
Subject: hello Wolf
Message:
Welcome to F7. It's an interesting, never dull place where honesty prevails, not hate. If it was hate, I wouldn't be here. I can't stand hate. I do remember six or seven months ago, when I first arrived, the postings seemed stronger than they really were. I now understand it was my fragile and raw state. I was one of those Tonette spoke of; in it hook, line and sinker for nearly thirty years, not having one inkling of the real Mahararji, just the stage version.

Maybe you've been out for a while, and have the luxury of getting your life together, but the residual affects can be deep. This forum can be a catalyst that causes a separating action, then these false doctrines and truths can bubble to the top. Very healthy. Otherwise they hide and linger in our psyche, incapacitating us or even making us ill, and we have no idea why. Can you imagine going to a doctor, explaining symptoms but never divulging the years spent in the cult and the shock of exiting? The treatment could take years and still the root cause would not be eradicated. So yes, at times anger comes out and that isn't bad. It can facillitate healing. Staying angry forever might not be great.

In the beginning, I thought yes, Maharaji should fess up and apologize. It now amazes me to think of him in those terms of integrity. It would be like the chairman of Enron, the CEO's of the tobacco industry, Adolf Hitler, vaccine manufacturers, in short any intity that has made their millions off of scamming, conning, lying, abusing innocent people for their greedy gain. It just isn't going to happen. He knows he would be legally liable and he doesn't have enough money for the lawsuits that would ensue. Can you imagine?

Imagaine him admitting it was all a scam, he wasn't the lord incarnate. There's not a court in this country that wouldn't require him to make immediate restitution. It's called fraud. Have you ever known a corporation to admit to fraud? Not willingly. Look at Firestone and Ford.
No, Odwalla and Tylenol are the only two that took immediate responsibility in an open and frank way, sacrificing profits for public safety.

Maharaji is a thief. An out and out thief. He stole people's hearts, minds, bodies, lives, families, careers, trust funds, homes, food out of their babie's mouths, clothes off their children's backs, and affection for their parents, many of whom have long ago left this world. He also stole the innocense of childhood by bringing child molesting rapists to his devotee's children and not stopping it, thereby perpetuating it.

Yes Maharaji is a perfect master; he is the master of the perfect con.

So step in and get rid of the depression. Find a therapist who knows about the special affects cults have. Otherwise, start the process here of getting the infection out of your system. It's been there too long.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:13:24 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller on M's Greatest
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: All
Subject: Crime and Tragic Legacy
Message:
Some people believe in God. Some choose not to. I have always felt and sensed in my heart that some higher power - not a personality but an infinite, incomprehensible-by-intellect supreme power was not only sustaining my body but it was always supporting me, guiding me, helping me get thru this life. World religions, Maharajism most certainly included, and their power-greedy, wealth-greedy, worldly priesthoods and clergies (I was in the seminary so I know something about what makes these people tick) commit the terrible injustice of attempting to take ownership of God. Not having realized God themselves, they only end up creating alienation, anger, doubt about God itself and even atheism in the unwitting, unsuspecting victims of their brainwashing. They are (and this most certainly includes M, if it includes anyone), the "whitened sepulchers" that Jesus railed about: impressive on the outside but rotten with every kind of evil and filth-ridden form of corruption on the inside.

The first time I realized that I had become a victim of the God-business pitchmen was when I finally saw through the empty, shallow shell of Catholicism, back in 1968. I declared myself to be an atheist and became a pitied and "tolerated" black sheep in my large, super-orthodox Catholic family. A close brush with death (my life was threatened by some Navaho Indians in Arizona while crossing their reservation on a 6500-mile bicycle trip I did in June and July of '69) snapped me back into believing in God again (no atheists in foxholes). Even though I knew at some level that I had been spared from probable death, I still chose to ignore any kind of focus or pursuit of God. Like everyone else around me, I just wanted to enjoy the pleasures of materialism, unhampered by any kind religious belief system.

Well, that's what I thought I wanted. My "mind" that is. But not my heart. My heart compelled me to keep searching for something, someone or some experience that would quell my thirst. It was beyond my mind's control. Finally, after exploring many avenues, I came across premies. Their exuberance, joyfulness, and complete and utter confidence that M really and truly was just like Jesus and was doing the same things Jesus did to his followers sold me completely on M and K.

Fast-forwarding 29 years and cutting to the chase, eventually I realized that M was doing exactly the same thing as all the other world religions were doing except he was doing it in a particularly insidious way involving sick and evil mind-control that served as a fast path to making him become fabulously wealthy.

Some exes' expressions of disbelief in God are making me realize that the real measure of the depth of M's evil crimes is not all the abuses and other things that exes are already aware of thanks to EPO and F7. M's greatest crime by far is destroying many exes' ability to gain or to regain a belief in God IN SPITE OF M's GRIEVOUS OFFENSES AGAINST THEM. He has, like myself earlier with Catholicism, just made it all that more difficult for a person to recover the innate desire of their heart to know God, to love God, and to derive a real sense of inner peace and contentment from knowing that they are being loved and cared for by a supreme power whose capacity for compassion is far beyond comprehension by intellect. As Jesus said, blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall see God. God. The pure and perfect energy felt and "seen" only with the heart. NOT M!!! God.

Finally, this is not meant as a criticism of anyone but it will irk some who like to think of themselves as atheists, I'm sure. I cannot imagine anything bleaker, darker, more pregnant with vulnerability to sadness, misery, and absence of true peace of mind, than refusing to listen to the song of your heart telling you that, yes, there is a supreme power out there that wants nothing more than to sweep you up into its arms and love you to death.

One of my favorite sayings of Jesus was: "He/she who has eyes, let him/her see."

(I'm back. Details later.)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:02:31 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Re: good bye
Message:
Hi Steve,
I just want you to know how much I've enjoyed your contribution to this forum. I haven't had the time to respond to your posts. I have recognised some shared experiences, you and I both left at the same time and came back in '94. I don't know what's happenned here but I hope you'll stick around.
Kelly
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:51:47 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Steve, please...
Message:
Steve,

Now that you've endeared yourself to me and others here, have you left with a simple goodbye?

Can you bring yourself to at least tell us what happened in the past few hours?

You're worrying me Steve...

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:12:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: What happened to Steve's post???
Message:
Anybody know? This doesn't look like a software glitch because the subject has changed and the text deleted and replaced with 'nt'

Email me if need be. I'd like to know what's going on.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What happened to Steve's post???
Message:
I was just asking myself the same thing. Steve must have deleted it himself. I sure wish he hadn't. It was terrific. Stevie Ji, please repost it.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:48:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I'd Like to know, too...
Message:
Stevie Ji,

What happened to your post? There was nothing wrong with it-it was good. Everybody has a right to their own beliefs.

Are you okay?

Please respond.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:54:00 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Steve,s fine, just the hiccups...
Message:
We all get them at times.

Anyway, if you or anyone would like a copy of Steve's post, email him and he'll send you one. They're a dollar a piece I believe. :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:30:13 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I posted God's Grandeur specially for him
Message:
When I posted Hopkins' poems to you, Cynthia, I had Stevie Ji in mind just to show him I'm not allergic to god stuff.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:39:47 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know, and I have a big mouth...
Message:
Thanks Pat,

You already know that I love you, but I've developed a fondess for Stevie Ji since he posted here.

I get worried when folks get upset, especially if it might be because of my BIG MOUTH (Or fast typing skills and a mind that races).

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:06:12 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I know, and I have a big - me too mouth...
Message:
I just emailed Stevie Ji. It's very hard to show someone your fondness for them here without sounding too sugary.

I got hurt quite a lot when I first started posting and left and came back and left.....:)

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:40:56 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller on M's Greatest
Subject: I don't know about this
Message:
Steve,

I don't know if there's a God or not, but I try to live my life based on what I do know. You write:-

I cannot imagine anything bleaker, darker, more pregnant with vulnerability to sadness, misery, and absence of true peace of mind, than refusing to listen to the song of your heart telling you that, yes, there is a supreme power out there that wants nothing more than to sweep you up into its arms and love you to death.

I have to say you sound exactly like a premie who cannot imagine a contented, fulfilled, life without Maharaji. Maybe the song of your 'heart' telling you about the supreme being is just an echo of your Catholic upbringing, or maybe not, but I think you are being a little judgemental and presumptious towards atheists.

Hey, Jim, Nigel, are your lives bleak?

John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:17:11 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: I don't know about this
Message:
Maybe the song of your 'heart' telling you about the supreme being is just an echo of your Catholic upbringing, or maybe not, but I think you are being a little judgemental and presumptious towards atheists.


---

Unlike governments, corporations, hi-profile organizations, Goo and others like him, I can admit and do admit that I went too far. I won't delete the 'bleaker' sentence so that others will understand yours and other posts on this thread. I apologize for the sanctimonious, definitely pompous attitude that produced a statement that is clearly insulting to atheists and agnostics. Guess I've got a ways to go in my exing. Thanks for not ripping me to pieces, JHB. I'm learning.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 19:36:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I don't know anything
Message:
Steve, I was wondering when you would come out of the closet as a ''spiritual'' person. ;)

I'm an agnostic who hasn't got a clue if there is a god and who doesn't really want to know anyway. To me the supreme power, if it were supremely intelligent, would self-destruct after creating a being with free will or at least have the courtesy to retire to Tahiti and leave us to get on with life.

It isn't true that it is ''bleaker, darker, more pregnant with vulnerability to sadness, misery, and absence of true peace of mind, than refusing to listen to the song of your heart telling you that, yes, there is a supreme power out there.''

It actually is lighter, easier and more fun just loving other human beings and is definitely not lonely at all. I'll leave belief in an unknowable creator to those with more humility and imagination than I have.

Here is an article which I have posted before but I like it a lot. To me it could be retitled ''Belief in an invisible god is a recipe for hell on earth.''

Belief in Paradise is a recipe for hell on earth
by Matthew Parris

To anyone but the believer, does it matter whether there is an after-life? Is it anybody’s business but the believer’s? Are we intruding — is it rude? — when we who have no faith question the religious beliefs of those who do?

It so happened that I was pondering this at the time when the World Trade Center collapsed.

Not many weeks previously I had written for the Times an essay about miracles. Taking the account of a claimed miracle performed by (or through) the late Mother Teresa, and now under investigation by the Vatican, I asked how Roman Catholics could honestly believe such things. Citing by name a list of respected Catholic figures in British public life — men and women of great influence whom I acknowledged to be of superior judgment — I asked, of each, whether they believed that, through the agency of a silver medallion that had touched Mother Teresa’s corpse, God had cured an Indian peasant woman of a life-threatening tumour.

When you write about religion you get a huge response from readers. Some were kind, but how quick many Christians are to become poisonous when their faith is questioned, impugning the character or motives of the questioner rather than engaging with the question. I was soon wading through piles of letters and emails, whose analysis will deserve another column for some interesting common themes link the letters.

But one stood out. Expressed in many different ways, it amounted to this: ‘My faith may be an imperfect thing, but at least I’m trying, and what I have is my own. To each his own gods. Keep your nose out.’ In other words, those without faith have no right to finger the beliefs of the faithful, because faith is private, and at least believers have a belief, which is more than non-believers do.

There are two strands here. First, a person’s understanding of the universe and its meaning is nobody’s business but his own; second, as half a loaf is better than no bread, so some kind of faith is better than no faith at all. Religious belief becomes a sort of possession — like a beautiful painting. Whether or not others share the owner’s taste is their problem, for he does not, by valuing something, force others to do so. The atheist, who cannot appreciate, should envy the believer, who can.

And, as I’ve said, it so happens that this was what I was pondering just before those two suicide pilots went in. They had faith, but my atheism does not envy them. Their faith was personal, but very much our business. Their God claims, as does our Christian God, to be the God of all mankind, including us infidels who do not acknowledge him. Their religion, like ours, promises Paradise to those who are faithful to its cause.

Now one had better at once make clear that no direct comparison is intended between a gentle and well-meaning Christian’s faith and the perversion of Islam that drove those young hijackers to their savage acts. Or, rather, we may make the comparison, but upon making it we will find that the two are in many respects different.

There is, however, an important core common to both. Both faiths claim universality. Both teach their followers that there is another world more important than this one, and that entrance into that Paradise is to be gained or lost upon the judgment not of this world or anyone in it, but of a Being who stands beyond the here and now. Both believe that in a most important sense of the word this world is not real, and that the here and now does not matter. Meaning is elsewhere. Results, in the ultimate, are to be sought elsewhere. Judgment will be made by Another.

If I have seemed to claim an absence of faith, then I take that back. I am a great believer in the here and now. I do believe in this world, in this humanity, its present and its future, and in results sought and found here on earth. And that it is we who must judge.

I believe that the here and now is good, and worth working to improve; that human suffering is bad, and worth seeking to mitigate; and that life and peace, beauty and plenty, are to be sought as ends in themselves, for ourselves and for those who succeed us. I believe this world and its future matters, matters completely, matters more than anything. I believe this world is real. I know of no other.

And I believe in the judgment of the here and now; that we and our fellow-men, in this life and for the sake of this life, can judge our contributions, applying our own standards, derivable from nobody and nothing but ourselves, rewardable or punishable by nobody and nothing but ourselves, rewardable or punishable nowhere but here. The reality in which I believe is not, however, solipsistic; it includes others, including future others. There is nothing necessarily selfish in a belief in the primacy of this life; any more than there is anything necessarily unselfish in the pursuit of Paradise in an after-life.

A belief in the visible is a wonderfully steadying thing. The here and now can be horrific, shocking, painful, but if you think it is what counts, then you will so conduct yourself as to mitigate the horror, minimise the shocks, avoid the pain, for yourself and others. You will not lay waste this world in hopes of salvation in the next.

You will not fly an aeroplane into a skyscraper. Or, rather, you will not do so unless convinced that others will benefit in this life. That you could benefit in Paradise is not an available outcome.

You will not preach to wretched people the evils of birth control in this world, on the grounds that their souls’ salvation is what counts and though their children may starve they will see Glory in the next. You will not incite the poor to stone the poor, and call upon God in Heaven, as Ian Paisley does, as your judge. You will not dismiss real lives, real feelings, real hopes and fears, as a mere chimera, a veil of tears.

For is the pursuit of the next life not a corrupter of this one? Is not the doctrine that this world does not matter an invitation to callousness, and the call of the next a call to madness? If we are not to judge by the evidence of our own eyes, then we are quickly in the hands of the mediators: those who claim to have glimpsed the invisible, to see illuminated by divine light what with our own eyes we cannot see, to hear voices we cannot hear, to know reasons beyond our reasoning.

As Richard Dawkins said in the Guardian last week, Paradise-seeking missiles are the deadliest of weapons. If God did not exist it would have been necessary for Osama bin Laden to invent him. Godlessness is a humanising force.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:03:19 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I believe in Love...
Message:
Thanks for your words and that fantastic article, Pat.

I think I'm probably agnostic. I still don't know.

I continue to have difficulty saying and even reading the word 'God.' Especially with a capital G. I guess I need to practice:) I have a distinct problem with phrases such as 'higher power,' and I absolutely cannot stand all the variations of 'universal thingies.' Particularly when spoken here about being inside. Inside, within inside, well, you know.

I believe in love. Love of nature in all it's forms and love of people in all their forms, even though some people do scare me.

I don't believe in a visible or invisible god. I have difficulty entering any church or temple, even if it's for a wedding or funeral, which are the only times I will go to those buildings.

So that leaves me with love which I do feel inside me, but I don't try to interpret it, I just let love go toward whatever and whomever my love is flowing toward.

Life is fun and life is difficult. Life is best when there's love in my heart and tolerance for all of my own mistakes as I go along living.

Sort of confused, but not really;)
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:33:04 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Wow what a Great Article
Message:
i think I am speechless.... but not quite.. This is a most telling phrase of Mathew Parris :

'Religious belief becomes a sort of possession — like a beautiful painting.'

and it really objectifies and sums up my respect for my time with M as opposed to M himself.

I am soo glad to have escaped intact. Thank you pat for posting this.

x
Loafie

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:45:23 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: The best bit (imho)
Message:
Though it is better in context, of course

I believe that the here and now is good, and worth working to improve; that human suffering is bad, and worth seeking to mitigate; and that life and peace, beauty and plenty, are to be sought as ends in themselves, for ourselves and for those who succeed us. I believe this world and its future matters, matters completely, matters more than anything. I believe this world is real. I know of no other.

Steve is still right though, at least when he declares no atheists in foxholes. That's so funny! Steve, carry on letting your humour shine through and I will think few people here will want to take issue with your spiritual beliefs. Except, of course, to disabuse you of the notion that a refusal to believe in the supernatural leaves one bleak, dark, pregnant with vulnerability to sadness, misery, and without true peace of mind.

Is that not exactly what a belief in M's supernatural powers led you and many others into?

JohnT
- honourary ex

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:52:23 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: All
Subject: No Michael Nouri tape on sale. Sorry!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:19:37 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: It was a DVD and from what I heard ...
Message:
it was quite well guarded. It's almost like they didn't want it to get in the 'wrong' hands. What I heard was that it was sent to a community to be shown, in the care of someone who was responsible for showing it and sending it back.

I also think they went to DVD because right now they are hard to duplicate unless you are a hacker or have that DeCSS program that has been sued off the Internet. Videos are too easy to copy and break.

Soooo, unless you know a trusted community contact, chances are you can't even SEE this baby unless it's being shown in your community.

Buuuut, thanks for trying to find out!

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:13:15 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: So, it wasn't that easy, huh?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:34:13 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: It was a DVD and from what I heard ...
Message:
As one of trusted pwk's to handle the Michael Nouri video, it was sent to me on VHS video. Any you're right, the security was phobic to say the least.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:32:09 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: OT
Message:
Are you from MI?
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 01:29:06 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Correction: so it was VHS
Message:
Could have been DVD in another community. Vicki, you are one who knows.

Bests,

--f

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 09:31:03 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: Correction: so it was VHS
Message:
Fran,
They could have it out on DVD now, as well. The most telling thing was the phobia that surrounded even getting the thing. EV treated it like state secrets or something. Me thinkest they have an over inflatted opinion of themselves.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:42:26 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: And methinkest they have ...
Message:
... something to hide. Why the secrecy if it's true, if it's an accurate presentation of the facts?

But of course, those articles that came out in the press early on in the 70s about Maharaji, some of which are on EPO, document the statements he was making back in those days. I think that anyone outside the cult would see this video/DVD as brainwashing/whitewashing and revisionism at its worst. There is enough public documentation about how Maharaji presented himself to defeat any arguments they could put forth in the video/DVD. Although I haven't seen it I've heard enough about it to surmise that it is only Maharaji's beligerent demeanor, and the fact that he is emphatically correcting people that are subservient to him, that gives that video/DVD any effect, and that effect is on premies only.

Anyone else with 2 cents worth of brains sees it the way we do. Blatant lies to brainwashed sheep. (How sad. Some of them are/were my friends.)

And that IS something to hide.

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:15 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: I'd love to see that video
Message:
Really, Francesca. It must have been really hard for them to gaze lovingly into the camera and tell their fellow friends and ex-roommates that they are full of shit.

To the people who are premies, this must have been a worse slap in the face. These days would have been the best days of their lives, why would they want to deny that? That must been a very destructive seed to plant in premies. A seed M wouldn't want to see grow.

Now for exes, it is a joke. But worse, it is evidence that M is trying to use 'thought reform'. Maybe its' just me, but 'thought reform' is a moral and illegal crime.

What is the name of that tape? Is it 'passages' or is that another video? I haven't seen M videos in well over a decade.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:03:42 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Ahhhhhhhh......!
Message:
So that's it! Fer cryin' out loud, it went right over me bloomin' head! But of course! What a riot, there he is, refuting what there is still written proof of. No wonder he got so mad at the poor premie that asked him if he's the lord or not, which was edited out.

Boy, he's a slippery one. And Visions and Elan Vital are nothing more that axel grease. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:14:59 (EST)
From: Chris P
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Kelly: Info re KIT training
Message:
Hi Kelly, I read your post a few days ago and I don't know if you've got your
answers yet re what was the KIT training all about, but I can pass on to you
what I know as well. (I took the training myself last year and that's what
blasted me straight out of the cult real fast and for good.)

(Warning - to anyone who happened to read my earlier posts the beginning of
January, this will be a re-read for you. A friend said I should re-post it
so here it is (and with a bit more 'edge' this time).

You've probably seen MJ's presentation in Atlanta over a year ago to
coordinators and instructors on how to talk about K to newcomers (how
redundant can you get - some of these instructors have been around since
when? early 70's). But everyone in this insulting presentation thought it
was great and started yet another phase of introducing the POSSIBILITY of
Knowledge.

MJ's wishes (as of January 2001) were to have all the communities run by
teams of people rather than single coordinators. Our community coordinator
resigned a year ago. Then came the First Class email announcing the new
national team for Knowledge introduction; then came a visit from the national
coordinator seeking volunteers for our own community's team (Knowledge
Introduction Steering Committee). Each city's committee's main task was to
draw up and implement a Knowledge Introduction Plan. These plans clearly
show this is active recruitment (which, by the way, discredits EV's FAQ
statement that EV is not a cult involved in active recruiting of members) --
each committee picked a yearly goal number of (say 300) people to introduce
to Knowledge.

What a joke. That included inviting the speaker to come speak in our
community, and the second-hand-clothed church ladies have to buy the speaker
the best cold weather gear obtainable. (Hello? He's been invited so many
times we've lost count; and you know he'll never come - he hates the cold;
and our small community has only ever had maybe 1 or 2 new aspirants a year.
Besides, he's rich enough and old enough now to do his own shopping for a
change.)

Our own committee actually started 're-recruiting from within' by sending
letters to all the old premies who had ever lived in and passed on from the
community decades ago to advise them of the 'current resources available
(satellite broadcasts, videos, publications, etc.) by which they can enjoy
the speaker's message'. (First of all, why is it that cult members never
bother to ask people who've left why they left, but still think they're doing
them a favour by 'paving the road from their garage doors straight to the
video hall' (so to speak), as if they've forgotten where to ask should they
want to ask! Du-uh! I guess they'd rather assume the reason for leaving is
they're 'in their mind' or 'derailed off the track somewhere'; therefore
they'll be good samaritans and try to save them by facilitating their getting
reconnected?) What another, typically cultish, joke.

Okay where was I (excuse the meditation side effect). Oh yeah, the KIT.
Well these steering committees hosted the Knowledge Introduction Training in
their respective cities by inviting the main facilitator (instructor from
Washington, DC) and the regional instructor, billeting them and taking care
of all the logistics. A minimum of 20 people was required for the jam-packed
2-day session at a cost of $150 per head. The workshop material/content was
the DVD of MJ's Atlanta session, follow-up group exercises that emphasized
teamwork and actually mocked individual thinking/decision-making or
independent action. Of course there were countless reminders to never forget
who the number one boss is we're doing this for! (Yea right, as if we'd all
forget already again). And then there was the old-school guilty behaviour
conditioning - we were each asked to think about and express weaknesses we've
displayed in the past (unhelpfulness; answering questions poorly, etc.).

There was also a series of filmed 5-min. shorts (yet another Dunrite
Productions video) of different takes of a coffee break conversation with a
pwk telling work friends all about her trip to see the speaker over the
weekend. The only differences in the approx. 6 takes were very minor
variations in the lines she delivered each time. A number of people even
missed the variations - I guess they were mind-numbed :) Of course, it was
the usual politically correct but deceptive spiel in that she wasn't exactly
saying she went to see the Perfect Master over the weekend! The whole series
was quite the stretch.

Then there was the simulator Q&A session where a volunteer would go into a
sideroom with a camera-video feed to the main hall where the rest critically
observed his/her responses to some unknown pretaped questions (some of them
quite challenging) from either (1) a newcomer first-time introduced; (2) an
aspirant trying to get some things cleared up before asking for K; or (3)
person just received K asking why he's not experiencing anything, and other
'mind' stuff. There were 4 pretaped endings (depending on your answers)
varying from 'Thank you, I enjoyed talking with you; you've helped me' to
'What is this shit - you're crazy; I'm out of here'.

I actually volunteered; I was curious to see how I'd do and also wanted to
find out whatever crappy ideas I might still be carrying myself. But
ironically more than that, I was about to discover that the last question
would expose the ancient program gears of a cult I didn't know I was trapped
in. The question was easy; heard it MANY times before:- 'Can I still
practise this meditation and follow my own religion as well?'

I could've caved and hauled up one of MJ's quotes like 'Check others out
first and if still not satisfied, keep me in reserve' or 'Yes, if you like to
mix ice cream with your pasta' (which don't say anything either way, as do a
lot of his answers). But I was deliberately exercising my ability to dig down
deep for the most intelligent, honest and satisfying answer possible. While
I was verbally stumbling through the honest-premie-answer,'Yes, it's
possible, but it would be hypocritical if you did', my mind was SNAPPING (per
Cynthia's book) with 'Not really; this is another religious cult'.

Then the last 'Thank you....' ending was played and I returned to the room
where everybody was supportive and said I did well! But I felt like a subtle
liar in the middle of a deceptive, bullshitting cult whose disguise was
'standing on and living from your own understanding and inner experience'.
This dogma was the very tie that bound me blindfolded inside its walls and
made me refuse to see it as a cult for that very looped reason. Over the
next few days (with the help of EPO) I finally saw past it - it's based on
centuries-old techniques handed down through the generations, not even
exclusively owned by the speaker. (I can just imagine everyone here
thinking 'yea, I figured that years ago :)

Amazing. It took 27 years for that simple little lightbulb to go off -- such
was the deadly disguise, like a wolf in sheep's (no, make that, 'lord's)
clothing.

Then the instructor went on for several minutes with the simplistic
instruction that if there's a question I don't have the answer to, and I
won't always have the answer to everything, then just tell them to watch a
video of MJ talking about it. Of course this was just not good enough for
me. After 27 years, I'm trying to draw from and stand on my own experience
here. Besides, who has the time to search the video library for the
appropriate video?! Du-uh, brilliant. It all smacked too much of being
programmed, like an idiot with a run-home-to-mama button, to sell Knowledge
without looking or sounding like you're selling Knowledge - neither
intelligent OR honest.

I excused myself at the break (both days) saying I had some important things
cooking at home. It was a total waste of my weekend. Actually IMO the
workshop should be illegal - it's a deceptive cult recruitment training
session. But everybody thought it was fantastic and inspiring! Holy
mackerel. When I left the first day, the instructor said 'Okay, but you
gotto' come back tomorrow - we're showing the best part of MJ's Atlanta video
tomorrow morning!'

My thoughts throughout the session was this will be the last training session
I attend; enough of the child's play; and the emphasis on
no-thinking-through-for-yourself was a real turn-off for me.

So Kelly, I hope this answers your questions re what the KIT was all about.
If not, then you'll just have to GO SEE THE ***** VIDEO!

Cheers,

Chris

PS: The KIT was held on our 'Thanksgiving' weekend - HA! (Lord, thank you
for delivering me from the hands of a deceptive cult.)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:29:49 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Chris P
Subject: Thanks Chris.
Message:
Thanks for reposting that Chris. I missed it when it first went up, and it was well worth reading.

I walked over three years ago, so I'm out of touch with the latest cult bullshit.

It seems that the cult is reducing, like tomato sauce. The temperature is rising and something is about to burn. There's more pressure for cash, more pressure to stop folk leaving, and questioning, and desperation to halt the decline they have fallen into.

They are constantly trying to reinvent themselves. It doesn't work, so they try something new. It's a shambles.

They inhabit a room with a turd in the corner. People walk in, sniff, and leave. To stop this happening, they keep repainting the walls, thinking the latest colour will surely turn things around.

But we know the real reason people leave, don't we boys and girls.

Thanks again Chris.

Uncle Anth, going mad in a storm on a cliff.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:43:25 (EST)
From: jude
Email: None
To: Chris P
Subject: I didn't know this site existed
Message:
Hi I'm new to this web site, I didn't know such a place existed the disgruntalled Maharaji employers and customers club.
Im not responding directly to anyones message I just thought I would share my own oppinions. And since we are all reasonable people I know that this wont be censored because that would mean this was a cult.

I see this site is asking for donations, you like Maharaji, both of you need donations of money to do your work, thats an interesting similarity.

Im a premi, and I found the website amusing and ugly. Ugly because it displays the very worse of human nature. It reads like a good trash, sensationalist, gossip collumn of disgruntalled employees, rejected lovers, and people who lack even one shred of dignity and self respect, or respect for anyone else. Most of you and this website display the most base aspects of your selves. Have you learned anything from your experiences.

People are people no matter where you go people have equal portions of good and bad. I don't agree with everything Maharaji says but I do trust in my own experience when I practice the techniques. Maharaji has a brilliant comic sense of irony that most of you cant pick up on. Read between the lines. You take him far too literally. Lighten up sounds like your lives are hell with or without him. Ill bet your seething masses of anger, frustration, bitterness, lonelyness. Get a life, find your happiness, if its not Maharaji then go somewhere else, who cares, I dont and no one else does, your free to do as you like. What makes you so special that you think your being targeted by a 'cult'. If I was to start a cult I wouldnt have you lot join.
Yes people with knowledge can be painfully irritating but so are my friends, who don't even know Maharaji exists.

PS Thanks for all the lovely pictures of Maharaji and his words, very nice. Maharaji once said, with much kindness, of this man who was so angy at him he tried to attack him (paraphrase) ' At least he is still thinking about me'

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:39:25 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Ttake a sad song and make it better, huh? :)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:38:02 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Hey Jude.
Message:
Hi Jude,

Your letter seems quite sincere. I remember when I used to think like that.

I have a sincere question to ask you.

What do you believe is the difference between yourself and a Moonie?

Try to be honest, and not say something that's a copout, like, 'I don't know what it's like to be a Moonie so I can't answer' or something.

Maybe the Rev Moon can give you more than your present teacher, so perhaps you should check out the Unification Principle, and the Holy Family.

Or is there a difference between your Master and theirs?

What do you really think about this matter Jude?

Honest Dr Anth, purveyor of medecines to cure all known diseases. Only 10 cents a bottle. (5 cents to you Jude)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:10:08 (EST)
From: Can Someone pleeeeze
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Delete this troll?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:40:54 (EST)
From: Do you mean the one
Email: None
To: Can Someone pleeeeze
Subject: who never uses a name when he posts?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:48:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: What about this, Jude?
Message:
In the summer of '73 one of Maharaji's closest 'saints' tried to kill a man who'd throw a shaving cream pie at Maharaji. We'll never know if Maharaji knew that Mahatma Fakiranand was going to smash the guy in the head with a hammer and leave him for dead but we do know that Maharaji had a very 'expressive' conversation with Fakiranand at the ashram after the pie attack but before Fakiranand and another premie met with the prankster pretending to be disgruntled premies. Too bad they were speaking in hindi, huh?

We also know that Maharaji ordered Mike Donner to secrete Fakiranand out of the country just after the attack. Now it comes to light that he was actually sent to Switzerland where he continued to 'serve' Maharaji in eurpoe right up until the Millenium festival in November of that year.

Interestingly, at the Millenium festival, Maharaji gave his last ever press conference. When a reporter tried to ask him about Fakiranand a premie helping to manage the press conference tried to cut her off (as an aside, this premie was the same one who actually was guarding Maharaji when he got the pie in his face, although nothing really turns on that). The reporters insisted on hearing the guru's answer so Maharaji, very sheepishly, muttered, more or less under his breath, that he was 'looking into it'. What he didn't say was that he was protecting Fakiranand, a would be murderer, in his cult in europe.

In truth, Maharaji looked into nothing of course. Thus, when a Newsweek reporter soon after complains that the guru's answers are flippant what he didn't know was that they were actually lies as well. Maharaji did all he could to stifle an inquiry into that ugly and potentially fatal incident. If you get a copy of the 'Lord of the Universe' video, you can actually watch your guru lie and squirm and then start whining about being asked all those pesky questions in the first place.

Would you like a copy? If so, please email me. I'm sure we can work out something:

jimheller@shaw.ca

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:38:19 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Re: I didn't know this site existed
Message:
That's okay, Jude. I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I'm perfectly happy for you and other pwk's to continue enjoying the practise of Knowledge. After all, I too, did have many nice experiences and good times in MJ's world. However, with what I know now, I could never go back. You can certainly think whatever you like about that.

On another thought, I guess I just have too much of an independent streak in me to ever make it in MJ's world. I don't see it as a failure either, really - I just finally decided it's not for me.

Cheers,

ChrisP

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:20:35 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: You're OBVIOUSLY knew
Message:
or you're a spin-doctor.

Either way, hold onto your hat.

deborah

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:20:28 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: David Roupell, you can't stop lying, can you??
Message:
You must think that we were born yesterday darling. It's the same IP# you used to post as Passing Through, SC, Cerise, Marolyn et al and now jude. Get a life, dude.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:57:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: David Roupell, you can't stop lying, can you?
Message:
Pat,

You've got that special ability to spot a troll. I just read 'jude's' post and thought, TROLL!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:14:42 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Special ability??
Message:
Yes, Cynthia, it's being able to see peoples' IP#s and use Verisign Whois to trace them. :)

Actually I did the trace because I thought is may be a friend of mine called Jude who also uses a Mac. Surprise! It was dear Mr Roupell.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:01:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jude
Subject: Jude, honey
Message:
Get it together, okay? You don't need to be so confronted by people talking about Maharaji. It is really okay to do it. That being said, my, aren't you just a tad judgmental, Jude? Perhaps you protest just a little too much? What are you afraid of? We are just people, Jude.

By the way, how many of the people who post here that you throw into such a negative category, do you actually know? Is it greater than zero?

I think you will find that people have moved on with their lives after rejecting Maharaji. I think the problem you have is not so much what people think about Maharaji, just that they talk about it, publicly. I think that's the thing that bothers you and you find 'ugly.' That's too bad.

Good luck Jude. Maybe you should just pretend you never saw this website it if upsets you so much.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:30:17 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Chris P
Subject: Psycho Boot camp
Message:
What a journey into the depths of the deplorable and depraved mind control tactics that the cult is using today sanctioned directly by m to jump start propagation. It is obvious from these first hand examples you provided us Chris of M's ridiculous sophmoric attemts to facilitate some sort of training methods that the cult is dying on the vine.

One thing is becomes certain for me in this illustration and that is propagation is all but over and cannot be resucitated through these bungling means.

Thanks Chris for the highlights , I concur with the others, this is a best of forum contribution.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 07:08:33 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Chris P
Subject: Wow! thanks Chris P
Message:
Hi Crispy, (So crispy you SNAPPED huh?)

Thanks for that fascinating and informative post ( I don’t think I’ll need to watch a video!)
So they really did it: that truly beggars belief. I find it quite unbelievable that anybody, even the most devoted premie, can watch the Atlanta training without at least a few teensy misgivings.
Here’s a quote from it: “the Master says, yes this is ok to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride.”
As you so rightly said, it’s insulting, deeply insulting, yet I also know premies who thought it was wonderful and inspiring “He made it all so clear.” Well he certainly made it clear to me, transparent in fact! It certainly seems to have precipitated the exit of quite a few of us from the cult, and was pretty much the final drip for me.
(Sorry to repeat myself here yet again, but if anyone wants to read some of it, I transcribed some passages which can be found on ‘best of forum’ Miragey’s recent diatribe’)

The version that I saw (and have been copying for other exes) was a satellite broadcast, which was obviously heavily edited, chopped to bits in fact, presumably cutting out the swear words, blue jokes and other material deemed unsuitable for ordinary premies. Was the KIT training a fuller version?

Crispy, you gave us a really good glimpse into the inner workings of the cult and also into the subtle programming that kept us stuck there for so long. Great post, definitely a ***BEST OF***
Thanks
Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:56:23 (EST)
From: Patsy
Email: None
To: Chris P
Subject: Thanks Crispy - excellent. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:22:29 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Chris P
Subject: **BEST of FORUM*** a must read!
Message:
Chris,

Thanks for posting this again.

Best wishes to you,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:44:43 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: **BEST of FORUM*** YES!
Message:
Thank you for that Chris, there is nothing quite like a first-hand account. Thanks for sharing it with us.
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:29:43 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: **BEST of FORUM*** a must read!
Message:
CQ, I vaguely emember this post. Thanks a lot. I didn't know you had a 'snapping' experience in this session. Could you tell by looking at anybody else that they were 'snapping' as well.

Can you tell me, as I have not yet seen the Atlantic Training Video, who else participated (especially but not exclusively on the PAM level).

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:34:38 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: To Deborah
Message:
Hi Deborah,

You wrote:

'Could you tell by looking at anybody else that they were 'snapping' as well.'

- I couldn't tell from 'appearances', however they all (at least the ones I talked to) thought it was great and are all still hanging in there. One guy had actually already attended a previous KIT session in another city and recommended it be brought to our city as well. One person saw that I had 'unanswered questions' and said I could email any feedback I had to the group after. I did so but haven't received a single response.

What a thing, eh? Belief systems..... fiercely personal and sadly limiting. Either way, judging someone else's belief is utterly pointless. (I loved PatC's and Loaf's posts above on this.)

'Can you tell me ..... who else participated (especially but not exclusively on the PAM level)'

- I can't say much for the Atlanta session itself, but our own KIT's two facilitators were both visiting instructors: Booth Dyess (who had attended the Atlanta session and was trained to run the subsequent KIT sessions in various cities) and Marielle Comeau (regional instructor who assisted).

Cheers,

ChrisP
(not CQ, although ChrisP is my alias)
(another recent Canadian recent)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:29:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: ***BEST OF*** to ChrisP...
Message:
Hi Chris,

Thanks so much for reposting this. I think I missed the original.

Your description of snapping was exactly as I've read in the book of that title.

This term was coined by the authors, Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. They consider 'snapping' to be what happens at the point of entering a cult, as well as snapping out of a cult.

I'm glad you snapped. You got your mind and freedom of thought back.

Btw, I enjoy your posts very much.

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:15:19 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: Thanks ChrisP [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:15:44 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The shock of meeting old Premie friends
Message:
I was just nattering to Cynth below when I realised something..

How Far I have travelled from my cult mind-set, and how important a part in that gradual transformation you have all been.

Day by day, my perspective on the whole devotional business shifts, evolves, clarifies.. but I hardly notice.

But its only when i look back I realise how much the ground has shifted.

When I first exited I had a very hard time making sense of what was going on.. I felt extremely disloyal to maharaji, and also frightened of damnation (irrational even as it seemed). Posting here was a nerve wracking occaision, like ratting on your boss or jumping out of an aeroplane.

Like Vicky (below... well obviously 'below' cos this is a new post .. at the time of posting) and others have been expressing so clearly, it seems that M took the place of something in my own psyche... and my relationship with 'MY Guru maharaji' has very little to do with PPSRawat. Less than he likes to think.

My perception of him was a social construct which he played into and re-inforced. Without any events, focus of an audience, without a stage or a title, he would not have had the same effect on me, or on most other people.

premie society, magazines, Events Videos and broadcasts all buoyed me along in a bubble of self-agreement.

Now I find myself here... supported and challenged by you lot.. perhaps in a similar way that i was supported by (and challenged by) Maha and the Prems - this forum and its people are changing me, moderating my opinions and feelings, subtly affecting my scripting so that I dont notice quite how far I have moved from my state of gopi-ness until I look down, as I did when I watched Back Passages the other day.

It was a shock to see people I know quite well, stuck in a mindset which I have grown out of.

Because I have been growing, moving, evolving, its easy to assume that Premies are doing the same thing.. I mean all these words are very much a part of the Knowledge Culture...its only when you meet a Premie friend from the past that with a jolt you SEE the effects of the bubble of belief from the outside... and it doesnt look good folks.

This may be a similar experience that Mike Finch talks of when he 'took stock' of where he was compaired with where he wanted to be.. but the pressures of conformity actually discourage us from taking stock. A society which believes it is fighting a common enemy, is united... but self knowledge may be sacrificed in the process.

So what did maharaji teach me was the enemy ?

At first, explicitly and later implicitly...My Mind.

'this World'
'Death'
'Time'
'Your Job'
'Airlines'
Rather like a stand up comic, M cleverly identifies with his audience by doing the old.. ' Did you ever wonder why...' routine.

And so we laugh and are isolated by degrees into what we are lead to believe is a 'better option'

Feel.

When watching him during the Atrocious and Vomit Inducing Atlanta Training Organisational Rubbish (A.V.I.A.T.O.R.) I reflected on the complete absense of ANY message in anything he has said .. although the context of the message changed from one of Mike Finches categories through to the others..

In the 70s he basically said 'U need me I am here'
In the 80s he basically said the same stuff...'U need me I am here'
in the 90s... 'Life is precious.. ' (I LIKED THAT BIT) but basically it all adds up to... 'U need me I am here'

As soon as you buy into that equation.. you will be grateful for anything.. and end up getting high on gratitude which is a Feudal low status occupation.

And gratitude is a powerful anaesthetic.

Listening to his presentations .. once the message (such as it is) is ut of the way, the bliss of him is easily understood..

listening to a storyteller is blissful.
Watching a confident person soaking up attention is inspiring and peaceful.

So, he speaks slowly.. (overdoing it a bit these days, so intoxicated is he with his own 'weighty message' that he pauses for longer than he squeeks).. in fact the shrill jabber of the 70s has been replaced by a whispering poet.

But the point is that premies are missing out on the Excitement of these self-revelations, because all they are doing is maintaining a belief system instead of examining it.

And as somebody or other said.. ' hell is an unexamined Life'

After i had exited gradually for a year or so, i went to harrogate with me mate Bryn Davies and it was a shock... not maharaji, actually I was quite impressed with his attention handling skills... but what WAS a shock was the Premies.. they looked aweful, stuck and a strange mixture of arrogant and smug with a twist of humble that made me want to run for the hills.

You guys are so refreshing. Has anyone else seen any premies recently after a break ? How do they look to you ?

What might be fun is if we all .. en masse, in a sychronised and precise fashion went to attend our local events (if they still have em).. this would do two things :

1. keep us all up to date with maharaji's very important message to the world ('U need me I am here')..

2. remind us all how far we have come away from that mindset !!

3. Push the Propogation and Attendance figures through the roof !

Currently here in my home town I believe there are 4 people co-ordinating one aspirant.

Love and all best wishes

Loafie

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:30:29 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Wotcha!
Message:
Thanks for the mench! We did share an exit visa. It all seemed like such deep treason and heresy at the time. Shit much water under the bridge. Premie ? Knowlege? Guru? its all so far away now.

I have no regrets at all-that's for any lurkers and waverers.

Move on folks, just walk, its such a new world.

Love Bryn

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:33:29 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: cq's Quote From Below
Message:
When I read this from cq's post I had to repost it. He was talking about Dougie Little and his devotion to the lard:

''Knowledge is the cheese in the mousetrap of submission to Maharaji.''

That one sentence flew off the page for me. The hook is knowledge. I took that bait, and blind, mindless devotion was the result.

I never wanted a guru, that's the weird part. Never. I hated eastern philosophy and religions and then I met premies and became one.

Now, after all these years, I still have to root out ingrained warped thoughts and beliefs.

Shit! This stuff isn't easy.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:18:47 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: At last, I'm recognised as a literary giant ...
Message:
and inspiration strikes again, to wit:


Maharaji's demand for 'gratitude' (=$$$) is the bed-bug in the mattress of premiehood.

Charanmrit is the toe-jam in the bath-water of life.


I was looking for another gem in the same vein, but somehow it wouldn't come, and I got all serious instead. Hence this:

Devotion is another word for nothing left to lose.

Pah.

Anyone got any more good 'uns?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:19:39 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Quote lovers of the world unite....
Message:
Hilarious - thanks for the laughs! Here are some of my favs, too:

A premie's service motto:
'We have done so much, for so long, with so little and for so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.'

MJ's service motto:
'Teamwork is essential. It allows you to blame someone else.'

An ex-PAM's motto:
'Ask me about my vow of silence.'

MJ's motto re PAM's:
'In any organization there will always be one person who knows what's going on. This person must be fired.'

A meditator's motto:
'Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.'

Satsang giver's motto:
'Even though neither you or I understand what I'm saying, at least it's better to remove all doubt and keep talking.'

Cheers,

the other Chris

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:08:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: LOL--funny stuff ChrisP [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:27:04 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: LOL! I like the 'meditator's motto' (nt)
Message:
LOL! I particularly like the 'meditator's motto' (nt)
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:13:33 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Same here!
Message:
I never wanted a guru, that's the weird part. Never


I was actually embarrassed about the little black and white picture I was given at the knowledge session. I raved about the knowledge to a bloke I lived with, when he found the picture in a book and asked me who it was I replied, uncomfortably looking at the floor,that he was the guy who gives it.


I don't think it was too long after that though that I was bholey Shri-ing with the rest of them.


Peg

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 10:56:01 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: And - Same here!
Message:
I distinctly remember (if that's not a contradiction in terms for those far-off days in aspirant la-la land) that I wanted to get the 'missing piece of the jigsaw', bugger off and do what the hell I wanted with it.

Then it transpired that I had to wait til I felt 'love' for the boy in the Nazi suit. How? Well, by staring at his photo in nightly satsang, of course.

Hard? No, I should think myself bloody lucky to be born now (Perfect Master comes with more compassion than ever before bla bla). Why, unlike Milarepa, I could avoid having any limbs removed to prove my devotion. Lucky me!

No, no, not a cult at all.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:34:59 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Knowledge is the cheese
Message:
Yeah, Cynthia that quote caught my eye, too. When I got involved in 1972, the cheese was the promise of knowing god but, more importantly at the time, to be part of GMJ's stated mission of spreading peace to the world. So that makes me a 'Peacenik' according to the recent categories. That cheese was switched to Bhakti - the devotional path. The old bait and switch (pun intended re:mousetrap).

I think it's been changed these days. Knowledge is no longer the cheese in the devotion trap. Now, the hook is believing in 'your own experience'. So if you reject M & K, you are rejecting your own experience and therefore your own self. Not healthy for anyone.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:26:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Knowledge is the cheese
Message:
Maybe the hook has changed in an outward way, but I think the hope by the cult/M is that once someone gets hooked by self-knowledge, (the new euphemism in the cult) gratitude is needed in order to support his royal ass by giving $$$ (preferably US):)

I'm probably saying the same thing you said above. I've really come to believe that this cult is dangerous because of the fear factor and the theft of mind through the enticement/recruitment of people to receive a panacea to all of life's problems through knowledge.

Maharaji does appeal to those who may desire to have a quick fix in life, and it's the ''panacea to suffering'' is what the advertisement gimmick turns out to be. But now, if someone gets k, they still are assessed for a commitment to the master, albeit in a subtle way. I think the traps the same in essence. The trappings have changed, but the goal is the same: Mo' Money. Without people to give him the bucks, he's down the tubes.

Cynthia, what do I know?

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:19:32 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You know a lot Cynthia!
Message:
One thing that struck me in the Michael Nouri video was Maharaji saying things like 'Will I ever have to take tylenol for a headache after I get knowledge?' 'Hell, yes.' It was incredibly demeaning.

The gist was, we made outrageous claims about the power of knowledge, not him. Well, I have the magazine somewhere with him talking about us being so sick, we don't even know how sick we are. So we just have to take the pill of knowledge.

Now, it's like, no knowledge isn't for these things and it doesn't work on these things. Fine. But what he still does is intimidate with satsang that getting caught in life's net is due to not being intouch enough with this feeling, and still looking to the world for fulfillment. So he does exactly as you say, Cynthia. And it disables people to rely on their own resources, instincts, common sense. It really is the most emotionally, codependent producing system, all the while making the devotee think they are getting stronger in devotion when in reality they are getting weaker and weaker.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:33:19 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You know everything, Cynthia
Message:
I agree that we are saying the same thing. It's the same ol' game of showing you what's yours and then expecting an attitude of gratitude.

You are so smart and wise. In fact, you must know everything so I've decided to move to Vermont, live in a tent and pray for you to pass by so I can scoop up the snow from your footprints. It will be charanamrit, by your Gracie. :)

Richard

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:39:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: You know everything, Cynthia ())())
Message:
Richard,

You are too kind. I do appreciate the compliment, it feels good to be appreciated.

Much Love,
Cynthia

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