Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 30, 2002 To: Feb 04, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


__ Marianne -:- The ex with an agenda -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:59:25 (EST)
__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: The ex with an agenda -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:59:35 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Are you sure...? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:07:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Wasn't it Cobra? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:41:25 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Mariannes agenda -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:43:50 (EST)

OTS -:- The Yorem Weiss Show -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:26:30 (EST)
__ Eric -:- Re: The Yorem Weiss Show -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:51:08 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- How much is Urine paid? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:44:10 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Re: How much is Urine paid? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:11:54 (EST)
__ __ Yea! -:- Re: OTS, what a guy! nt -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 22:55:38 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Yoram - in the beginning -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:11:49 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Re: The Yorem Weiss Show -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:41:13 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Dig the last paragraph invective LOL [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:52:03 (EST)
__ Nick -:- One important error -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- In France too -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:02:46 (EST)
__ __ JIM -:- ***MAJOR EXPOSE*** -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:49:33 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Jagdeo similarities. -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:51:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Fakiranand and Jagdeo -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:24:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- AJW -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:14:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Covenanted donations -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:42:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: AJW -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:14:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Nick -:- Re: ***MAJOR EXPOSE*** -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:00:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I remember Dougie -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:15:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Sad news I'm afraid, Pat -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 07:31:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Sad news I'm afraid, Pat -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:45:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- RIP, Dougie Little -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:10:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: RIP, Dougie Little -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:52:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nick -:- Re: RIP, Dougie Little -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:23:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- RIP, Dougie Little... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:10:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Brava Cynthia -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:39:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Brava Cynthia - ditto -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:40:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I love you, too... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 17:10:58 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- :~) WOW Nick :~) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:43:01 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Wonderful post, OTS... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:55 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Wonderful post, OTS... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Admonished by Mahatma Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:25:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Back in time..Robert De Niro style -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:09:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- If only I had a time machine -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 03:35:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Fakiranization -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:00:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gurucharanandization -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:07:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Ashokanand was bad, too -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:18:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Ashok, cats and craziness. -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 22:57:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Unnaturally Fastidious... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 19:47:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- This reminds me of... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:13:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Whatever Happened to Barbara Kolodney?? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:02:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Whatever Happened to Barbara Kolodney?? -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:33:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Gurucharanandization -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:13:20 (EST)

Vicki -:- Spelling (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:03:05 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Spelling (and suggestion) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:07:50 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Spelling (and suggestion) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:54:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Vicky, you're welcome to email me -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:02:47 (EST)
__ Stonor -:- Re: Spelling (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:04:42 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Reading (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:49:09 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- For Joe -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:35:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Whole language v. Phonics -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:13:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Whole language v. Phonics -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:07:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That's okay, Vicki -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 22:18:56 (EST)
__ __ Diz -:- Re: Teaching literacy (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:35:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That doesn't make sense to me (OT) -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:29:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Answer to your question: -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:29:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: That doesn't make sense to me (OT) -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:31:38 (EST)
__ The foremost authority -:- on reading -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:14:30 (EST)
__ __ Stonor -:- Remediation Plus System -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:40:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Remediation Plus System -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:19:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Remediation Plus System -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:32:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Also - The Tomatis Method -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:46:37 (EST)

Ed -:- Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:42:00 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Got any good darshan-line stories? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:33:26 (EST)
__ janet -:- hey ED-welcome 2 the free side -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 09:07:03 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Welcome Ed... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:47:06 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Welcome Ed... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:24:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Ed -:- Re: Welcome Ed... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 06:32:00 (EST)
__ PatC -:- and my apologies to you, Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:23:38 (EST)
__ __ Ed -:- Re: and my apologies to you, Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:34:16 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Email whenever you want, Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:40:48 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Thanks Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:13:22 (EST)
__ __ Ed -:- Re: Thanks Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:27:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Names and faces -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:06:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Ed -:- Re: Thanks Ed -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:07 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:54 (EST)
__ __ Ed -:- Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:06:45 (EST)
__ __ __ jethro -:- Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:11:41 (EST)
__ Lookie Lou -:- Did you contact Gerry? [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:49:23 (EST)
__ __ Ed -:- Re: Did you contact Gerry? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:15 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Did you contact Gerry? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:01:43 (EST)

New person -:- GERRY! FA: Check your email -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:38:00 (EST)

Jim -:- The Hidden Enemy of Doubt -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:22:22 (EST)
__ Dermot -:- Yeah but -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:43:13 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Grumble all you want, Dermot... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:03:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Grumble all you want, Dermot... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:00:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Vicki/Cynthia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:34:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Dermot -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:09:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Jeeze ! -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:25:42 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Addendum -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:23:59 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Language usage -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:40:58 (EST)

gerry -:- Y'all realize of course... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:11:49 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:01:54 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Hey, what about me??? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:25:32 (EST)
__ __ Nick -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:15:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Nick. Thanks. [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:30:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Dear Nick, Thank you for this (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:21:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- **Great post Nick** -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:40:47 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Wonderful post. Thanks, Nick [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:25:29 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: My next prediction -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:10:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Email from trolls pretending to be exes -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:35:19 (EST)

WPC girl -:- Hi , I'm new here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:42:40 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- Re: Hi , I'm new here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:21:43 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Welcome to F7 -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:20:22 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Welcome to F7, WPC girl -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:40:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Welcome, WPC girl -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:17:21 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Hi , I'm new here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:53:16 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Hello and welcome [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:07:02 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Welcome WPC girl... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:23 (EST)

Zoey -:- Flushed the pills. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:20:35 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Nice post, Zoey. Thanks [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:42:57 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Do I know you? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:57:57 (EST)
__ __ Zoey -:- Re: Do I know you? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:36:33 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Oh Hi Welcome, Zoey (loft?)... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:27:19 (EST)

Jethro -:- To Quiet: from thread below -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:52:44 (EST)
__ Quiet -:- Re: To Quiet: from thread below -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:06:44 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: To Quiet: from thread below -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:32:13 (EST)

Tim Matheson -:- Is Tim Gallwey embarrassed by LORD MAHARAJI -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:00:46 (EST)
__ Peg -:- embarrassment -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:38 (EST)

janet -:- look, Quiet... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:23:37 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: look, Quiet... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:46:47 (EST)
__ __ Diz -:- Studying with dyslexia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:53:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Studying with dyslexia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:12:33 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Diz. Nicely said. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:58:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Drop It Quiet, Be a bit Quiet...Love to You(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:21:18 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- Please Guys, Would you Please.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:48:37 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Please Guys, Would you Please.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:50:27 (EST)
__ Stevie Ji -:- Nice job, Bai Ji, You did it again -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:47:55 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Well said, Bai Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:54:08 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- total agreement here -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:52:26 (EST)
__ __ Kelly -:- 'Back Passages' LOL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:31:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: 'Back Passages' LOL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:48:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- The KIT training -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:03:51 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Hi Loafi Ji... Hurts don't it?.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:17:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Hi Bai JI... Hurts don't it?.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:54:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Thank you Kelly, I shall talk with you (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 08:45:03 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Loafi Ji and Bai Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:42:07 (EST)


Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:59:25 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: The ex with an agenda
Message:
Hi Mike. Your post is wonderful. Your descriptions are spot on, as you Brits like to say. When our paths crossed last year, when you were just leaving things behind, you told me that when you read my posts, you thought, 'She has an agenda.' I responded that indeed I did.

Your analysis is quite insightful. I hope that today you see that I have an agenda, but my involvement in EPO and with the exes is much more complicated than that.

Fondly, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:59:35 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: The ex with an agenda
Message:
I hope that today you see that I have an agenda, but my involvement in EPO and with the exes is much more complicated than that.

Hi Marianne

Oh yes, I see that, and have for a while. When we met in London, I was a little overwhelmed by everything, including my going public, as it were.

Also fondly, Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:07:18 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Are you sure...?
Message:
Hi Mike,

Are you sure it wasn't the Kingfisher lager that overwhelmed you at your last London gig?

Anth, No it's your turn, I gottem in last time.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:41:25 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Wasn't it Cobra?
Message:
I think it's your turn at the Tris Kambari pub in Limbazi, although it will have to be Lacplesis Gaisais.

John the Indian and Latvian beer expert.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:43:50 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Mariannes agenda
Message:
Hi Marianne,

As far as I can make out your agenda seems to consist of swanning around the world with a Mexican toyboy, drinking champagne, and eating in good restaurants. You seem to be using the loose organisation of ex-premies to further your hedonistic, party-going lifestyle.

Take care, say 'Hi' to Raphael, next time you go down into the dungeon to feed him, or whatever.

love from anth.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:26:30 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Yorem Weiss Show
Message:
Having studied Judaism in my youth for many years, when Guru Maharaji came along, simultaneous with the fading out of the radical left and anti-war movement in America in the early 70s and the rise of heavy metal music, I was just so ripe that part of my faith which promised Jews that their savior will come seemed to be answered for me by his arrival in the West.

“He’s Here and Now,” as I believe the early DLM advertising campaign shouted. Remember we were made to go into neighborhood stores in the early 70s and ask for permission to please put up these huge ugly weird posters in the storefront windows with Maharaji’s full figure in Indian whites against a blue sky background with starts and planets trumpeting that He is Here and Now, or some such other bullshit. I was just so convinced that he was it -- the Savior come in human form to save mankind from its selfishness and fast food and cultural void and generational divide. I was convinced for nearly 30 years, until I saw the real light -- M’s contamination of his mission and his lust for material things.

I replaced my waning faith in all things Jewish with the fascinating bright light of the arti candle and a bunch of Hindu bullshit as taught by the psycho representatives of the Living Lord himself -- the imported Indian Mahatmas. I just didn’t know it -- for almost 30 years -- that this was just prime bullshit. They showed us how to bow down and prostrate -- completely foreign to my religious upbringing. How to pray to and how to worship a living person (only he was the Living Lord and he knew everything and was all-powerful). We obeyed the intense instructions of the Mahatmas regarding how to behave and act and furnish our ashrams and homes and surrender and pray and and eat and clean and just every fucking thing else. They were heavy duty and their authority commanded total respect from everyone. Here’s an example of how we learned about proper etiquette in decorating: Quoting Mahatmaji now: “Are you insane? Hunh? You have hung up this picture of our Most Wonderful Lord, Shri Guru Maharaji, without a white cloth behind it? Are you totally Crazgy? You must fix this at once.” This was the same nut who used to wonder off all night every night from where he had placed his shoes time after time in Indian railway stations where for hours on end he would sing verse after verse from the Hindu scripture “The Ramayana” prior to and after he received Knowledge from Maharaji. He was called a Ramayani. He forgot and lost his shoes regularly. He was just too gone. [Know anyone in high school like that? I doubt it.] This same “saint” later allegedly beat a man in America with a real hammer on top of his head and the man required a metal plate in his skull for life. This was in retaliation for the man having tossed a shaving cream pie in the face of the “Lord.” The Jews had an “eye for an eye” as their justice standard. This Mahatma had another standard all together. He was hurried out of the country and permanently retired as an “instructor” of M’s. The damage was done, however. Too late. You can never un-ring a bell or un-bash a skull. I was in favor of this punishment for many years, but have repented myself.

I bought the entire package and program. Went to Guru Puja in Montrose, Colorado and Hans Jyanti in India in 1972, moved into the ashram FOR LIFE (what happened there?) at the end of the year. Did it all. Went everywhere. All my friends got Knowledge; we were all blissed out at events, satsangs, special Mahatma programs, trainings, meetings, service opportunities, etc.. We just bought it all. We were stupid and didn’t do our homework. And now the truth seems to be trickling out. Unbiased. Naked.

For year after year after year, we went with the once-again new spin, new style, new language, new terms, new teams, new attitude. Nothing ever succeeded. It’s still changing today. Yorem Weiss (I thought Eric’s name for him below was LAUGH OUT LOUD funny) would come to my town once or twice a year (for the past 15 years and in the same clothes and I never missed him hearing him speak once) and beg for our money to be sent in. But there was never any truth from him, you could just tell. His smile was too fake. He always had a sugar-coated truth to tell. Nothing was EVER wrong. He always put a positive spin on everything. I knew because some of the stories he told about M were second-hand to Yorem, but first-hand to me. And I used to see how he would twist the facts to make a better story -- more maudlin, more precious, more priceless -- but I knew the real facts of the matter, and saw how he twisted and shaded the truth. So, as for the many many other stories of which I had no first-hand knowledge, I began to doubt more and more and more, year after year after year. He’s just dishonest. His rap about Amaroo for the past 12 years has been just a snake oil salesman at his best. He’s starting again with his new round of explanations and bullshit starting in England next week to separate the premies from their money. It’ll never end. He’s so full of shit. People and women just kiss his ass because of his position. It’s rather sickening. He has climbed to the top and promotes climbing by others (even if they have to stomp all over others to get there). I hope he wakes up one day and just leaves. There is no closer PAM than Yorem, and this former Israeli army fighter is just the cog in the wheel that makes us all so sick. He spews crap everywhere he goes. He stinks and I wish he’d just cop to the truth once in his life.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:51:08 (EST)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: The Yorem Weiss Show
Message:
ots, you have Urine Weiss and his ilk pegged.Kudos on a grand expose'. Urine Weiss continues his appointed campain of urinanation on the premie population to this day.They have their cups ready to collect the latest specimen as we speak.THis anointing must stop before somebody gets their pockets picked again. Sela...............
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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:44:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Eric
Subject: How much is Urine paid?
Message:
I think this has to be seriously considered, and if premies weren't living in mindless cult-fear, they would ask. How much is Yoram paid to make these fundraising pitches, and does he get any kind of a commission on what gets raised?

I wouldn't be a big surprised if Yoram's personal finances aren't directly affected by how much he raised for the former Lord of the Universe. Think about it. He certainly is paid something, given all kinds of perks, I would imagine, and taking a cut of the take is so motivating to be a real salesman.

Is Yoram married? Where does he live? Does he have any other source of employement besides hawking for the Lord?

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:11:54 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: How much is Urine paid?
Message:
I'd guess he scrimps and lives on handouts, staying in loyal premie houses etc, where he has celebrity status. His reward is in heaven, however, I'm sure if he stopped inspiring the flow of cash in the direction of Malibu, he'd have to get a job and somewhere to live, like the rest of us.

Anth, who once owned a suit.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 22:55:38 (EST)
From: Yea!
Email: None
To: Another GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Subject: Re: OTS, what a guy! nt
Message:
Forum Seven

Welcome to Forum Seven, one of a growing number of forums and websites for people who used to be followers of Maharaji. This forum focuses on issues directly related to our association with Maharaji and his organization, Elan Vital (formerly Divine Light Mission.) It is intended as a forum for rational and civil discussion for as wide a variety and number of people as possible.

Off topics are discouraged, and any thread which degenerates into an internecine fight will be locked. This means the thread can still be read in its entirety, but is closed to further posting. Please use email or visit other forum sites such as Sat Chit-Chatroom for lively discussion on other topics.

N.B. This is not an 'official' forum of any organization whatsoever and is not affiliated with www.ex-premie.org but we heartily recommend that website. Your site host Gerry Lyng (click to send me mail), registered owner of this forum is not responsible for other's views or information posted here. When you post here, you claim sole responsibility for what you write.

This is a moderated forum which means there is a definite topic, which is Maharaji and his cult, NOT the participants on this forum and their behavior. Those topics lead to massive infighting and then an exodus of valued posters because of the fight. I have to make some editorial decisions and I know not everyone will agree with them. And I'll probably make some mistakes, and I'm sure many of you could do a much better job. If you have complaints or suggestions please e-mail me instead of posting it on the forum. All the common sense stuff still applies, of course, such as sticking with a single name and no threats. Have at it. We got Heem on the run.

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Search Messages

.. Abi EV/Rawat 2/01/2002 at 20:00:41 (EST)

.. McDuck Joe, re the ashram closure in 76 2/01/2002 at 19:17:12 (EST)

.. Mike Finch Categories of premie and ex-premie 2/01/2002 at 17:49:47 (EST)
. Hey are you? The person who used to post as 2/01/2002 at 21:53:08 (EST)
. Mike Finch Re: The person who used to post as 2/01/2002 at 22:17:10 (EST)
. hamzen Yeah not bad Mike 2/01/2002 at 21:07:40 (EST)
. Zoey Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie 2/01/2002 at 19:55:07 (EST)
. Dermot Hmm I'm not sure Mike... 2/01/2002 at 19:37:04 (EST)
. Nottm Bunny Devotion was the hook 2/01/2002 at 19:26:32 (EST)
. Brian Smith Great Therories Mike 2/01/2002 at 19:23:52 (EST)
. Bai Ji Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie 2/01/2002 at 18:10:52 (EST)
. Joe Excellent Analysis, Mike 2/01/2002 at 18:08:03 (EST)

.. Marianne The ex with an agenda 2/01/2002 at 17:59:25 (EST)

.. OTS The Yorem Weiss Show 2/01/2002 at 15:26:30 (EST)
. Another GREAT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OTS, what a guy! nt 2/01/2002 at 21:40:04 (EST)
. Marianne Yoram - in the beginning 2/01/2002 at 19:11:49 (EST)
. Jethro Re: The Yorem Weiss Show 2/01/2002 at 18:41:13 (EST)
. Dermot Dig the last paragraph invective LOL [nt] 2/01/2002 at 17:52:03 (EST)
. Nick One important error 2/01/2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
. JIM ***MAJOR EXPOSE*** 2/01/2002 at 20:49:33 (EST)
. Francesca : WOW Nick : 2/01/2002 at 19:43:01 (EST)
. Cynthia Wonderful post, OTS... 2/01/2002 at 16:14:55 (EST)
. Richard Re: Wonderful post, OTS... 2/01/2002 at 16:22:45 (EST)
. Brian Smith Admonished by Mahatma Ji 2/01/2002 at 20:25:28 (EST)
. Joe Fakiranization 2/01/2002 at 17:00:01 (EST)
. Joe Gurucharanandization 2/01/2002 at 17:07:03 (EST)
. Voyeur Re: Gurucharanandization 2/01/2002 at 17:13:20 (EST)

.. Vicki Spelling (OT) 2/01/2002 at 15:03:05 (EST)
. Deborah Spelling (and suggestion) 2/01/2002 at 20:07:50 (EST)
. Vicki Re: Spelling (and suggestion) 2/01/2002 at 20:54:50 (EST)
. Stonor Re: Spelling (OT) 2/01/2002 at 17:04:42 (EST)
. Joe Reading (OT) 2/01/2002 at 15:49:09 (EST)
. Vicki For Joe 2/01/2002 at 18:35:57 (EST)
. Joe Whole language v. Phonics 2/01/2002 at 19:13:21 (EST)
. Vicki Re: Whole language v. Phonics 2/01/2002 at 20:07:54 (EST)
. Joe That's okay, Vicki 2/01/2002 at 22:18:56 (EST)
. Diz Re: Teaching literacy (OT) 2/01/2002 at 18:35:22 (EST)
. The foremost authority on reading 2/01/2002 at 15:14:30 (EST)

.. Ed Sort of an Apology to ALL 2/01/2002 at 14:42:00 (EST)
. Cynthia Welcome Ed... 2/01/2002 at 15:47:06 (EST)
. PatC and my apologies to you, Ed 2/01/2002 at 15:23:38 (EST)
. Ed Re: and my apologies to you, Ed 2/01/2002 at 15:34:16 (EST)
. PatC Email whenever you want, Ed 2/01/2002 at 15:40:48 (EST)
. Richard Thanks Ed 2/01/2002 at 15:13:22 (EST)
. Ed Re: Thanks Ed 2/01/2002 at 15:27:17 (EST)
. Richard Names and faces 2/01/2002 at 16:06:24 (EST)
. Ed Re: Thanks Ed 2/01/2002 at 16:14:07 (EST)
. Jethro Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL 2/01/2002 at 14:52:54 (EST)
. Ed Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL 2/01/2002 at 15:06:45 (EST)
. jethro Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL 2/01/2002 at 18:11:41 (EST)
. Lookie Lou Did you contact Gerry? [nt] 2/01/2002 at 14:49:23 (EST)
. Ed Re: Did you contact Gerry? 2/01/2002 at 14:52:15 (EST)
. gerry Re: Did you contact Gerry? 2/01/2002 at 15:01:43 (EST)

.. New person GERRY! FA: Check your email 2/01/2002 at 14:38:00 (EST)

.. Jim The Hidden Enemy of Doubt 2/01/2002 at 12:22:22 (EST)
. Dermot Yeah but 2/01/2002 at 13:43:13 (EST)
. Cynthia Grumble all you want, Dermot... 2/01/2002 at 16:03:11 (EST)
. Vicki Re: Grumble all you want, Dermot... 2/01/2002 at 20:00:24 (EST)
. Dermot Vicki/Cynthia 2/01/2002 at 20:34:11 (EST)
. Dermot Jeeze ! 2/01/2002 at 17:25:42 (EST)
. Jim Addendum 2/01/2002 at 12:23:59 (EST)
. Vicki Language usage 2/01/2002 at 12:40:58 (EST)

.. gerry Y'all realize of course... 2/01/2002 at 11:11:49 (EST)
. Jean-Michel My next prediction 2/01/2002 at 12:01:54 (EST)
. JHB Hey, what about me??? 2/01/2002 at 17:25:32 (EST)
. Nick Re: My next prediction 2/01/2002 at 16:15:40 (EST)
. Bai Ji Dear Nick, Thank you for this (nt) 2/01/2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)
. Dermot Re: My next prediction 2/01/2002 at 17:21:01 (EST)
. Kelly **Great post Nick** 2/01/2002 at 16:40:47 (EST)
. PatC Wonderful post. Thanks, Nick [nt] 2/01/2002 at 16:25:29 (EST)
. Vicki Re: My next prediction 2/01/2002 at 12:28:49 (EST)
. Jean-Michel Re: My next prediction 2/01/2002 at 13:10:16 (EST)
. PatC Email from trolls pretending to be exes 2/01/2002 at 13:35:19 (EST)

.. WPC girl Hi , I'm new here 2/01/2002 at 10:42:40 (EST)
. Jethro Re: Hi , I'm new here 2/01/2002 at 14:21:43 (EST)
. Vicki Welcome to F7 2/01/2002 at 12:20:22 (EST)
. PatC Welcome to F7, WPC girl 2/01/2002 at 13:40:38 (EST)
. Richard Welcome, WPC girl 2/01/2002 at 15:17:21 (EST)
. Kelly Re: Hi , I'm new here 2/01/2002 at 11:53:16 (EST)
. Loaf Hello and welcome [nt] 2/01/2002 at 11:07:02 (EST)
. Cynthia Welcome WPC girl... 2/01/2002 at 16:22:23 (EST)

.. Zoey Flushed the pills. 2/01/2002 at 09:20:35 (EST)
. PatC Nice post, Zoey. Thanks [nt] 2/01/2002 at 15:42:57 (EST)
. Jim Do I know you? 2/01/2002 at 09:57:57 (EST)
. Zoey Re: Do I know you? 2/01/2002 at 19:36:33 (EST)
. Bai Ji Oh Hi Welcome, Zoey (loft?)... 2/01/2002 at 09:27:19 (EST)

.. Jethro To Quiet: from thread below 2/01/2002 at 07:52:44 (EST)
. Quiet Re: To Quiet: from thread below 2/01/2002 at 10:06:44 (EST)
. Jethro Re: To Quiet: from thread below 2/01/2002 at 10:32:13 (EST)

.. Tim Matheson Is Tim Gallwey embarrassed by LORD MAHARAJI 2/01/2002 at 07:00:46 (EST)
. Peg embarrassment 2/01/2002 at 07:30:38 (EST)

.. janet look, Quiet... 2/01/2002 at 04:23:37 (EST)
. PatC Re: look, Quiet... 2/01/2002 at 04:46:47 (EST)
. Diz Studying with dyslexia 2/01/2002 at 05:53:30 (EST)
. Bai Ji Re: Studying with dyslexia 2/01/2002 at 09:12:33 (EST)
. PatC Thanks, Diz. Nicely said. 2/01/2002 at 05:58:01 (EST)
. Bai Ji Drop It Quiet, Be a bit Quiet...Love to You(nt) 2/01/2002 at 09:21:18 (EST)

.. Bai Ji Please Guys, Would you Please.. 2/01/2002 at 03:48:37 (EST)
. Bai Ji Re: Please Guys, Would you Please.. 2/01/2002 at 09:50:27 (EST)
. Stevie Ji Nice job, Bai Ji, You did it again 2/01/2002 at 06:47:55 (EST)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:11:49 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Yoram - in the beginning
Message:
One of the bits of information that blew my mind when I found EPO in 1999 was that Yoram was the chief fundraiser for the cult. I knew him in San Francisco in his early premie days when he did not have a dime to his name. We were involved for a short period of time. Yoram was a sweet and caring person at this time.

That Yoram is today a chief apologist and fundraiser for M shocks me. There was a time when he was genuine. What a loss.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:41:13 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: The Yorem Weiss Show
Message:
'There is no closer PAM than Yorem, and this former Israeli army fighter is just the cog in the wheel that makes us all so sick. He spews crap everywhere he goes. He stinks and I wish he’d just cop to the truth once in his life. '

I saw his parents a few years ago in Jerusalem. I think they would agree with you.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:52:03 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Dig the last paragraph invective LOL [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:30:12 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: One important error
Message:
Hi OTS

As I wrote her a while ago, the general understanding in the States and Canada is that Fakiranand was retired straight after the Pat Halley incident.

In fact, he was flown to Switzerland where he toured around as a fully fledged mahatma for several months leading up to Millenium, spreading his terrifying brand of obsessive devotion to m. No-one there knew what he had done with the hammer - I spent many weeks driving him around and looking after him, and was not given not the slightest hint of how dangerous he was.

Yet again, this represents to a clear indication that m really has never cared for his premies and only cares about fulfilling his own self-serving mission at any cost.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:02:46 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: In France too
Message:
I vividly remember seeing him at programs in France too at that time, but I can't remember exactly when.

I guess I'll go through the collection of old French magazines I own and check the dates he toured and had programs in France.

I'll keep you informed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:49:33 (EST)
From: JIM
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: ***MAJOR EXPOSE***
Message:
The implications are amazing. Parallel to, and yes, possibly even worse, than Jagdeo. Maharaji knew that this would-be murderer, who he'd whisked out of the country, was dangerous. Why? Not just because he had just proven his fanaticism knew no limits although that's surely enough. But, even beyond that, Fakiranand was desparate to not be detected and possibly extradited (attempt murder's bad enough for extradition in most places). Anyone who did recognize him and put two and two together might have been in serious harm's way.

So what does Maharaji do? He keeps him in circulation as a revered 'Holy Man' and hopes for the best.

Nick, could you possibly flesh this out with as much detail as you can recall. Anyone you can think of who might corroborate?

As far as I go, this is one of the most daming things I've ever heard about Maharaji. EVER!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:51:02 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JIM
Subject: Jagdeo similarities.
Message:
Hi Jim,

The way the Captain dealt with Fakiranand has similarities to the way he dealt with Jagdeo. According to an Ex- national co-ordinator, when the complaints about Jagdeo's child abuse became embarassingly loud, Rawat limited his touring to Indian communities in the Far East, where presumably, he was free to carry on his awful crimes, in his full time position as a cult official and representative.

This is disgusting.

Anth watching the chickens come home to roost.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:24:25 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Fakiranand and Jagdeo
Message:
Someone on the forum a while back brought up an interesting point, and that is Maharaji let these jokers walk because they had as much on him as he did on them. He couldn't risk his cover being blown. Another thing is, I don't think they particularly cared about little lowlie white premieji's welfare in the least. We were a dime a dozen.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:14:13 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: AJW
Message:
Anth,
Abi posted yesterday requesting any address, e-mail, anything for Rawat. Her father is convinced that Rawat didn't know how Elan Vital dealt with Jagdeo. She also was asking about the tax status of EV and if it was true that Rawat doesn't get any money from EV. There were glitches, due to trolls, and the post accidently got erased.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 02:42:00 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Covenanted donations
Message:
Anth,
Abi posted yesterday requesting any address, e-mail, anything for Rawat. Her father is convinced that Rawat didn't know how Elan Vital dealt with Jagdeo. She also was asking about the tax status of EV and if it was true that Rawat doesn't get any money from EV. There were glitches, due to trolls, and the post accidently got erased.


---

The Elan Vital accounts for the year to 31mar2000 (as filed with Companies House in the UK) show that EV made a covenanted donation of GBP 134,109 (one hundred and thirtyfour thousand, one hundred and nine pounds). Call that about USD 200,000.

To whom would EV UK would want to gift so much money, I wonder?

You can see gifs of the filed documents (an ex who posts under the handle of G made them available to me) at http://www.poetsroads.demon.co.uk/unholy3/EVaccounts.html

That same page links to the UK Companies House where a person may do online research, and order copies of filed documents.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:14:29 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: AJW
Message:
Hi Vicki,

Abi and I are in constant communication on the batphone.

Anth, once a bird, once a plane, now a batphone.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:00:21 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: JIM
Subject: Re: ***MAJOR EXPOSE***
Message:
According to the Penthouse article reproduced on EPO, the attack on Pat Halley took place on 3 August 1973. At the end of August 1973 I went to live in Alsace, in Eastern France. I lived just a few miles away from the Swiss border city of Basel.

On an almost weekly basis, I would travel to Basel to get involved in the propagation activities of the ashram in that city. The only person's name that I can remember of the people who lived there was Matthias, later to become the notorious instructor. But that's a different story.

Since this is almost 30 years ago, I am wary of my fading memory. However, I first saw Fakiranand at a public programme in Basel in early October 1973 - I remember it well, because it was there that I saw my wife for the first time and she was there as an aspirant. I can still visualise many of the details of the programme (as well of my first impressions of my wife!). At that time, his driver and translator was an Australian premie, also called Nick. He also had a very, very strange 'valet', a Scottish guy, called Dougie I think, who had done some very early propagation in Iceland.

Being one of the few premies to have a half decent car, I soon found myself driving him around to a number of programmes.I have tried to find documentary evidence of this and still have a leaflet advertising 2 programmes on 18 and 19 October in Delemont, a town in French speaking Switzerland. It advertises that a Mahatma will speak - the leaflet neither names Fakiranand nor has the year - but I know when I was there! I also accompanied Fakiranand to other programmes in Zurich, Bern, and Biel - maybe other towns as well, but I prefer to stick with facts I am sure of.

This was all before the Millenium Programme in Houston - 8-10 November 1973. I remember personally asking Fakiranand why he wasn't going to Houston, and he simply said that Maharaji had other plans for him. He did not want to speak about it.

I have a vague memory that at the same period, he spent a few days either in Austria or Germany. I asked him to come to France to do a programme in my town. He was keen, but I was then told that he did not have the necessary visas - so I am a little dubious that he actually went to France then at all. I have been looking back through old copies of 'Lumiere Divine' (French equivalent of Divine Times)and found no reference to him, but the ones I have got date from early '74. His tour was full of incidents, reflecting his insane fanaticism. But I was young, naive and, being very very pliable, got on with him fine and enjoyed my time with him. It is only in retrospect that I realise how totally outrageous it was that m sent him to Europe at this time.

Again, from what I remember, Fakiranand went back to India just before Millenium and didn't come back. It was subsequent to this that various titbits of information started to filter through about what he did to Pat Halley. Swiss 'luminaries' of that time included Willow Baker, a photographer Gabi, Daniel Staeli. Willow is still very heavily involved in the cult and I have no idea at all where the 2 others are. Apart from that, I can only remember faces but not names.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:15:15 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Nick
Subject: I remember Dougie
Message:
What a trip down memory lane, Nick. I lived with Dougie in the Glasgow ashram (Glen Whittaker was the boss there) in 1973. My god yes it is almost 30 years ago and the memories are not clear.

But I think Dougie went to Iceland from Glasgow. Dougie may have been strange but he was also a very intense and interesting guy, very passionate and attractive under a deadpan and taciturn exterior.

Hey, Dougie, if you're reading this email me.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 07:31:22 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sad news I'm afraid, Pat
Message:
Dougie Little took his own life quite a few years ago.

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:45:02 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Sad news I'm afraid, Pat
Message:
Pat,
I met Doug Little when he was living in a premie house with some friends of mine just outside Oxford, Otley I think. He made a tremendous impression on me at the time even though I only saw him a few times. Sad.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:10:14 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: RIP, Dougie Little
Message:
Thanks Chris and Voyeur. That news has shaken me. Dougie was far too sincere ever to have swallowed cult BS for too long but may not have had the help he needed to get out of it. Another cult victim?
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:52:32 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: RIP, Dougie Little
Message:
I think Dougie was one of the most steadfast and devoted premies I ever met - his faith in M was rock-solid, almost fundamentalist. But he was also one of the gentlest guys imaginable. At least that's the impression I got.

However, if he was caught up the aftermath of Fakiranand's escape from the US, then maybe the juxtaposition of his faith in his Lord and the the violence that Fakiranand had exhibited caused him bigger problems than any of us knew. I remember he had to spend some time in the Andy Duncan clinic (a psychiatric unit) in Edinburgh in the mid-70s. Unfortunately it seems even the professionals there couldn't help him.

Which only goes to show: no matter how appealing and lovely life is painted to be around M, there are serious emotional and mental consequences when you begin to realise that the 'Lord' you idealise in your own heart and mind is very different to the kind of 'Lord' that Maharaji actually turns out to be.

Thought for the day:

Knowledge is the cheese in the mousetrap of submission to Maharaji.

And for some premies, that submission can be fatal.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:23:58 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: RIP, Dougie Little
Message:
It is nice to read the positive messages re Dougie, with former acquaintences coming to his defence after my slight implied slur about him in my post above.

When I knew him as Fakiranand's valet, he unfortunately assumed certain delusions of grandeur, and expected mahatma style treatment from everyone but Fakiranand to whom he was utterly humble and faithful. Even in those days I railed against such behaviour, with which Yoram and others are being imbued today.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:10:53 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: RIP, Dougie Little...
Message:
I never knew Dougie Little, I don't think, but I'm sorry you are upset.

My speculation is the same as yours, Pat. Leaving without receiving support and understanding is what could have caused him to take his life. It's so sad to know that so many have first given their lives to that creep, then died because they didn't receive the human kindnesses and love needed to leave.

That's why I stay with the forum. With the many new exiters, coming here to relieve themself of pain, distrust, paranoia, and the myriad of emotional difficulties, I have to stay to at least try to comfort them, if comfort is all I can give.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:39:13 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Brava Cynthia
Message:
Well said and so very heartfelt. This certainly ups the ante in terms of relative value of EPO and forum.

BTW: I just tried to phone our mutual friend. I noticed there's a Visions garage sale in Miami today so, I'm sure that's where she is. One day we'll all be free.

Richard who's not totally free but at least inexpensive

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:40:15 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Brava Cynthia - ditto
Message:
Yes, that's why I'm here too. You guys helped me so much. To me that is the main focus for me on the forum - just being here when people first exit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 17:10:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I love you, too...
Message:
Pat and Richard,

Sometimes I am overwhelmed by the compassion here. I catch a lot of shit from my sisters (one a premie) about letting this go, etc., etc.

Recently I had to write them an explanation about the importance of this forum and I guess I was a bit too passionate because I have only heard back from one. That's okay. Sisters argue, and we always get over it.

But no one can convince me that being here for others, and myself, isn't helping me and those new folks who wander in from the wilderness of cult life.

Many thanks to you,
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:43:01 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: :~) WOW Nick :~)
Message:
Thanks for filling us in. I just heard from Pat Halley not that long ago after not being in touch with him since before the incident. He told me to quit beating myself up. He certainly doesn't blame the premies that were deluded and sincere.

He said that what we didn't realize is that we always had the power, and not the Maha.

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:55 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Wonderful post, OTS...
Message:
Thank you for that.

Welcome back, too. I'm hoping you'll post more and more.

Sounds like you have good stories to tell. This is the place.

Btw, I remember being told by Mahatmas to 'never put a picture of mahaha on the floor.'

I never have met Weiss, but I've encountered many premies like him. Money grubbing liars they are.

Best,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:45 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Wonderful post, OTS...
Message:
I agree. LOL about Fakiranand. The day I received K, afterward I went to the bathroom and up to the next stall comes Mr Beggar of Bliss himself. I had put my commandments and photo of GMJ on the sink while I wizzed so mahatma Ji picked it up with great reverance and admonished me to never put M's picture down but always hold it in my hands. Err, how am I supposed to .... oh, never mind. Yes mahatma ji
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:25:28 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Admonished by Mahatma Ji
Message:
Regeshwar. There were a few of us sitting in the satsang hall waiting for Mahatmaji to come down and give satsang. Many had been sitting cross legged for a long while and to relieve the stress had stretched their legs out feet and toes extended towards the alter.

Needless to say, he walked in and freaked, never point your feet towards guru mararaji's alter, never, ever. The poor premies and aspirants at hand sat mortified as he launched into one of those you are not worthy diatribes and proper protocol to be be displayed in front of the lord's alter routines.

Since I was his driver and more or less valet for his visit he particularly singled me out and schooled me on how to never let something like that ever happen again.

It really made me nervous, I thought for sure that I had really fucked up royally and hoped to never again repeat the experience.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:09:27 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Back in time..Robert De Niro style
Message:
If we knew/felt then what we know/feel now.....

'You talkin' to me?
You talkin' to me?

Are you talkin to me??
Listen you Hindu infested Mahawanker
I'll point my feet where I damn well like
Ok big boy??? '

:) :) :) HO HUM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 03:35:26 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: If only I had a time machine
Message:
Boy could we have some fun, I'd swing over and pick you up .......... we'd tell'em Dermot
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:00:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Fakiranization
Message:
I remember in the ashram once we prepared for Fakiranand to arrive. Cloths were put behind every picture on the wall, a cloth under every picture on a table, etc. After a couple of days we were sure the ashram was fully 'Fakiranized' (actual term we used).

Anyhow, I remember when the psycho actually arrived, he looked like the robot in Terminator, with eyes darting, x-raying the place until he found something 'wrong' which he did, eventually, and went into a tirade about it. He did not, however, punish anyone with a hammer to the skull. It was psychological torture he inflicted as punishment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:07:03 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gurucharanandization
Message:
Gurucharnand has this image as just a sweet guy and he rambles on endlessly in the Passages video, now with some gray hair.

But he seemed to be a bit particular about food. I remember one time he wanted carrot juice, and I dutifully went to the ashram kitchen, allowed to enter because I had 'serice for Mahatama Ji', carefully cleaned and scrubbed organic carrots and juiced them so perfectly. When I brought Charanand the carrot juice he asked if they had been peeled, and I said no, because that's where all the vitamins are.

He THREW the juice back at me, spilling some and screamed: 'That's also where all the DIRT is!!' I slunk away and made carrot juice after peeling them, but even then, I thought about just putting the old juice in a new glass and telling him I had peeled them, but I was afraid I would go to hell, I guess.

Like some of the other mahatmas, he would only eat white rice, white bread, and white sugar, because they were "clean."

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:18:59 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ashokanand was bad, too
Message:
That's so funny, Joe, about putting the juice back in the glass. How I wish you would've done it!

They were unbelievably picky, these mahatmas. I remember once watching Mahatma Ashokanand (in England, around 1973) inspect a glass of water which had been brought to him (didn't these characters ever get anything for themselves?) for dust particles floating on it. This was presumably why they all had their meals and even glasses of water covered when they were brought to them. Anyhow, Ashok inspected this quite intently, turning the glass this way and that, to try and perceive dust on the water. He refused it, saying 'This water has dust on it', but when I took it away and looked I couldn't see anything at all.

And I used to serve Jagdeo's and all the other mahatma ji's dinners with napkins over them until they ate them. Hell, I've never even seen that in an Indian restaurant!

I wonder what made them so unnaturally fastidious, coming from a country as dirty as India? Very strange, indeed.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 22:57:22 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Ashok, cats and craziness.
Message:
Yeah Joy I saw/heard Ashok a lot in 73 England too. As I was always at the PoP doing service all day/night I'd see him often. He used to hate cats and I saw him kick some poor lil stray cat who used to hang about the PoP....his reasoning was that they were just totally and completely into their senses and were probably past life hedonists (he never used the word hedonist....but that's what he meant).

Also his rambling, incoherent discourses (I thought the rambling incoherence was just a lila or test for my intellect or something because by then little ole idiot me, thought he was a 'Great Soul')always got round to how 'craaazy' the Western world was, or non- premies, or Premies, or cats......basically anyone or anything apart from Guru Ji, the Holy Family and the Mahatmas.

He was a complete nutcase basically.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 19:47:20 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Unnaturally Fastidious...
Message:
That's so funny, Joe, about putting the juice back in the glass. How I wish you would've done it!

They were unbelievably picky, these mahatmas. I remember once watching Mahatma Ashokanand (in England, around 1973) inspect a glass of water which had been brought to him (didn't these characters ever get anything for themselves?) for dust particles floating on it. This was presumably why they all had their meals and even glasses of water covered when they were brought to them. Anyhow, Ashok inspected this quite intently, turning the glass this way and that, to try and perceive dust on the water. He refused it, saying 'This water has dust on it', but when I took it away and looked I couldn't see anything at all.

And I used to serve Jagdeo's and all the other mahatma ji's dinners with napkins over them until they ate them. Hell, I've never even seen that in an Indian restaurant!

I wonder what made them so unnaturally fastidious, coming from a country as dirty as India? Very strange, indeed.


---

They get it from emulating maharaji!
All wannabe copycats.
Some premies Yoram/Patrick McCraken etc the list goes on, are so anal in their habits as to border on full blown obsessive compulsive disorder.

Meanwhile they blatantly expect to be treated and deferred to as mini M's. Trying desperately to mimic and merge with m.

All that psychosis has to bubble up somehow.

I think I need a shower.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:13:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: This reminds me of...
Message:
Hi Joy,

This reminds me of so many African-Americans who would spit into the glass of some white slaveholder, or later in history, Jim Crow law promoters.

Joe, you should of spit in his flipping glass, but I know you're too nice to do that, even if humiliated.

Those Indian mahatmas were quite a trip. But I remember a few western initiators adopting that ''privileged'' attitude, too.

Barbara Kolodney (sp) slapped me on the butt once in the Hartford ashram kitchen because I was talking while I was helping her make a spinach lasagna for the sister's ashram. And I had put in a whole day's work in the ''outside world.'' I always liked Barbara because she was so pretty, cultured, and nice to me, but I have to say, the amount of lasanga she made was minute, and I could have eaten the whole dinner myself.

I kept saying to myself as she was cooking...''this is not enough, this is not enough!...'' LOL I did put my tongue back as she ordered :) :)

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:02:29 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Whatever Happened to Barbara Kolodney??
Message:
Hi Cynthia.

Yes, it's amazing the amount of c**p we put up with in the ashram days, isn't it? And how the initiators/mahatmas/instructors all had god complexes picked up from you-know-who. I wonder whatever happened to Barbara? She was kind of a nice lady, apart from the M connection of course, and I'm sure would've adjusted to life in the 'real world' a lot better than some (such as Anne Johnson, etc.)

Time to go eat dinner (sans napkin cover and hopefully sans dust, and with unpeeled carrots),
Joy

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:33:35 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Whatever Happened to Barbara Kolodney??
Message:
Hi Joy,

I have no idea what happened to Barbara. None whatsoever.

I sure hope she's out of the cult, though.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:13:20 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Gurucharanandization
Message:
So in other words, he confirmed to the Indian version of moving up in the world. Should have been a give away even then. If only we had the eyes to see.......
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:03:05 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Spelling (OT)
Message:
This is not an endorsement for or against any particular poster. I would like to add my opinion about spelling, since it is tied closely to what I do, and that is remediate children in reading.

California experienced a reading crisis about five years ago, when the standardized testing results came in under then governor Wilson. The tests had been suspended for a couple of years, so it was indeed a rude shock to find out California's students had plummetted to second from the bottom in national reading scores.

A summit was called, spearheaded by a little, itty bitty grandmother who had had enough. She brought it the foremost research authorities from around the country to testify at the state capital.

The long and short is, systematic, explicit phonic instruction had been taken out of school curriculum and replaced with whole language. Whole language is a system whereby the student is taught to memorize sight words in their entirety and reading will just magically evolve without skill based instruction.

This was done in the years around 1985. If you do the math, you will see these kids are now in college. The colleges know there is a huge problem with reading and spelling and writing. Allowances are made. It's shocking.

Legislation was passed in California mandating the implementation of systematic, explicit phonic instruction. Funding was allocated to the tune of at least $200 million dollars. I gave up counting. Publishing companies threatened to sue the state because they had whole language books, as requested by the state, on their hands. To avoid litigation, phonics was sprinkled in until the next adoption. This process has taken years.

No funding was allocated to the millions of older children who had already been harmed. Instead, the state focused on k-3 grade, starting fresh with these kids.

It's been a battle, not unlike a religious war. Phonics vs whole language is a heated debate. Even in the face of research involving millions of children around the country, led by the top brains in this country, whole language people will not give up their stance. Some have gotten very rich, obscenely rich, by inventing programs based on whole language, to remediate kids that were damaged by whole language.

These are the children and teenagers I work with.
The spelling is the hardest thing to correct. Spelling is a harder skill to acquire than reading.

The reason I'm going into this is, there may be lurkers who are afraid to honestly post because there is no spell check function on the forum. I myself, computer novice that I am, have no idea how you guys write on word then bring it over here.

I know I misspell words occasionally, and if I wasn't so lazy I'd look them all up in the dictionary. Sometimes I'm so jazzed about a revelation, I get carried away.

These kids are everywhere now. You'll find them at the video stores, book stores, on directory assistance, etc etc etc. They can't spell worth a darn. Our tolerance and patience would be greatly appreciated in many circumstances. Mostly I find these kids feel dumb enough as it is. It wasn't their fault. It was the state of California's, along with the other states in these United States of America and many countries around the world who dropped phonics instruction for whole language. New Zealand, Austrailia, the UK were especially hard hit.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:07:50 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Spelling (and suggestion)
Message:
Hi Vicky,

I'm sorry that I don't get a chance to communicate with too many exes these days as I am very very busy.

I am so glad you made a post about this fact. I would hate to think that some exes with valuable opinions and experiences are too intimidated to post for fear of being chastized (sp?) ;)

Suggestion:

People could use a word document to make their posts than copy and paste them into the reply box. Spell checkers (esp. Microsoft) make errors as well. But your mistakes will be minimalized.

One could use grammar check--unfortunately you need to understand what the grammar suggestions are saying in order to make changes. (I, personally, am not offended w/incorrect spelling. I type fast to get the post out and make silly mistakes. )

Review your post after it is sent.

Learn how to use the edit function in posts so that you can go back and fix subtle or glaring mistakes. Remember to hit the RELOAD or REFRESH button after each edit.

Note: If you are on the Board for a long time, you want to use RELOAD (Netscape) or REFRESH (Internet Explorer) to see the latest posts.

Type neatly and make good use of white space. Capitalize. Use parentheses or use dashes to seperate your points and organize your thoughts.

Learn how to italize, underline, bolden your text. THe emphasis is greatly appreciated and lessens the possibility of being misunderstood.

Use emoticons to spice up your posts. Like ;) :) :( })

Use yoursense of humour.

Mention that English is not your first language, or admit that you have a difficulty. People here will be much more sympathetic if they realize your situation.

Consult your local college or state education programs to learn how to improve your language proficiency.

Pick up a book on LATIN. Latin teaches you grammar and spelling. You need to know roots and inflect different endings depending on the grammatical usage. The rules for LATIN (dead language) explain why words have unusual spelling. However, Latin may be intimidating and may not be a good place to start.

Have and constantly use a good dictionary. Oxford Classical Dictionary is my dictionary of choice. Get a good book that has the etymology (the history of the word). Read where the words come from and learn to recognize the roots of words. It is interesting and will motivate you to go to dictionary more often.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:54:50 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Spelling (and suggestion)
Message:
I got it! I just opened another window, typed in 'dictionary' and up popped Encarta. I can now type in a word and it does all the work.
Thanks for all the other suggestions.
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:02:47 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: Vicki
Subject: Vicky, you're welcome to email me
Message:
You and I arrived here around the same time but come to the forum with different histories. I drifted away content to be an individual and cut my apron strings to M. Not that I didn't like him. I worshipped him. But I wanted to experience K and devotion while living my life in the real world. My justification at the time.

So, I repressed the cult trappings I had fallenl into and enjoyed the expansion of new horizons. When I came here I realized I had not settled the divorce w/M and K. I actually at that time, had never had a negative thought about M or K.

I am really looking forward to talking to someone who can fill me in on the cult history from the late '80's to recent time. I'd like to exchange some thoughts on this.

I left my email to you in email box.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:04:42 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Spelling (OT)
Message:
Hi Vicki,

I don't know you well, but I have to ask you to email you - this is my field as well. I'm currently working on the curriculum reforms for adult education for the Ministry of Education in the Province of Quebec - English sector. I know well the situation you describe so unusually well, and would love to keep in touch with you with regards to this. I would be interested to hear what resources/materials you are using, and your opinion on 'dyslexia'. Won't go into too much here, as I'm not an ex - emails with a premie landed me here a couple of years ago - long story. You can email Gerry if you want to check me out.

Wrt the situation here, it is also important to remember that a few people are speakers of ESL, which is at least as complex a problem as mother tongue speakers without explicit phonics.

Thank you for raising these points - it saddens me when people are labeled in a negative way just because of bad spelling, or grammar. The situation of exes, or those in the process of leaving is too serious for this kind of petty judgemental attitude, IMO.

Anna

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:49:09 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Reading (OT)
Message:
Vicki,

I agree we shouldn't get on people for spelling errors. We all do it. I think the recent discussion was about someone who was pretending to spell incorrectly for effect.

True, California dropped to the bottom in reading under Wilson and Deukmejian, but most people will tell you that wasn't due to teaching whole language, it's because under Wilson and Deukmegian per-student funding also dropped to the bottom and stayed there for years. I think California was 49th out of 50 in funding levels.

The result was large classes, poorly trained and paid teachers, lack of materials, poor curriculum development, etc. Phonics is fine, but I object when some claim that all we need to do is change the method of teaching, without appropriate funding, and everything will be fine. Just like those who say if we just test everyone everything will improve. That's nonsense.

Whole language does work, but it doesn't work if the whole system is falling apart, and it doesn't work for every kid. Phonics also works, but it doesn't work for every kid either. Teachers need to be able to use whatever tool works best for the kid and mandates either way are just interjecting politics into the system. Now, it appears we begin teaching kids to pass a test, and the test often doesn't relate to what kids are actually taught. And then there's all the inequity in the schools between poor and rich districts.

Don't even get me started on the 'Texas experience.'

Under Davis things are better, I think we are 37th in funding now, and the voters wisely trounced that stupid voucher idea, but it takes time to correct the underfunding.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:35:57 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: For Joe
Message:
Joe, I can tell you have very strong feelings about this subject, and are partial to whole language. Are you an elementary school teacher?

I won't apologize for my strong feelings about the necessity of phonics, if it is taught in a comprehensive program including phoenemic awareness. Nope, the field tests, the trials, the research done by Reid Lyon, over many years have provided data that was not currently available. And it isn't about money, per se. I use an incredibly inexpensive program, less than $250.00 per student, if they kept the hardback texts, and have successfully remediated over thirty children, some in special ed since first grade. Class size is a huge factor. I get children who come from some of the toniest public schools with most parents being doctors, lawyers, CEO's and also from the highest tuition charging school in town. It all comes down to the same issue, the teacher tried to combine programs or use whole language exclusively. I could care less about tests. The only good that particular test did was point the way to a crisis.

Here's some more sites. I've studied this in depth and sat with these people in more seminars than I can remember. The research speaks for itself, and the success of the children validate it.

If you want to talk further, let's do off the forum. I understand the concerns about a particular poster being legit.

Warmest Regards-
Vicki
[ Dr. Moats ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:13:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Whole language v. Phonics
Message:
Vicki,

No, I'm not an advocate of whole language, and I teach part time on the University level, and have never taught elementary or high school. I'm shocked at the number of people who get through college and can't write, let alone high school. Others do incredibly well, in my experience many of them who do the best are second generation immigrants.

In fact, I'm against mandating the format, I think there should be flexibility and choice. My sister is the director of reading programs for public schools in a midwestern state, which has smaller class size, scores very high on the standardized tests, (top 10 in scores and funding), and uses both whole language and phonics. Ideally, whole language is probably better, although in this age of television and short attention spans, it's hard to get kids to do that much reading, but phonics, which I was taught, is also important.

My point isn't that reading instruction is expensive, it's just that the whole system failed due to lack of funding overall (49 out of 50 states) and that resulted in large class size, etc., and that's the major reason kids can't read. My point is you can't blame whole language as the only reason kids in California can't read. It isn't just the lack of phonics being taught. Iowa is an example of a state where public schools work.

Plus, almost 50% of the kids in CA public schools don't have English as their first language. Iowa doesn't have that problem. Plus there has been huge flight from the public schools in California. In San Francisco, which is 50% white, the public schools are only 10% white.

My reaction is to people who claim that teaching phonics will solve the problem, without dealing with all the rest of the problems in the schools. In fact, some on the far right, who actually want to destroy the public schools, say if you just teach phonics, and test kids (and teachers) more, you don't even need to increase funding. It's that mentality that I'm reacting to.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:07:54 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Whole language v. Phonics
Message:
I will e-mail you if you want to talk further, because I have a lot to say on this issue.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 22:18:56 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: That's okay, Vicki
Message:
It's interesting, but I don't have much more to say about it. You should talk to my sister. She's an expert on reading and communication skills for children, and we've talked a lot about it over the years. I just hope things get better, and I'm somewhat optimistic. Good luck on all your good work with teaching.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:35:22 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Teaching literacy (OT)
Message:
Thanks for this information, Vicki, Stonor and Joe. The whole question is really complex - I haven't followed the literature or the politics of literacy but was well aware that there were differing points of view. You've fleshed out what I merely touched on in a pretty superficial way. I think Joe's point that it's different strokes for different folks when it comes to teaching reading, writing and spelling is spot on. As is Vicki's about the problems that can occur when someone falls through the cracks in the system. If that's what's happened, then it makes work like Stonor's particularly important.

Best wishes

Diz

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:29:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: That doesn't make sense to me (OT)
Message:
Thanks for this information, Vicki, Stonor and Joe. The whole question is really complex - I haven't followed the literature or the politics of literacy but was well aware that there were differing points of view. You've fleshed out what I merely touched on in a pretty superficial way. I think Joe's point that it's different strokes for different folks when it comes to teaching reading, writing and spelling is spot on. As is Vicki's about the problems that can occur when someone falls through the cracks in the system. If that's what's happened, then it makes work like Stonor's particularly important.

Best wishes

Diz


---

I am strongly suspicious of this idea that whole language might be good for some kids, phonics for others. I can't imagine how that would work. They're all kids, none of them can read, seems pretty universal situation when you get right down to it. The two approaches are so different and it's not as if they each have some way of highlighting or complementing natural differences in kids' apptitudes. How would THAT work?

Beyond that, the entire whole language idea has always struck me as a touch vague, even mystical. Maybe I just don't know enough about this but the theory seems weird. Where'd it come from to begin with?

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:29:40 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Answer to your question:
Message:
'Whole language' came from Kenneth Goodman.
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:31:38 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: That doesn't make sense to me (OT)
Message:
You're absolutely right. May I give you a standing ovation?
Please read the two links, and if you want more info, enter their names into the internet for the best, unbiased, field tested, documented up to the minute information available. A room was built that was a giant mri/catscan thing to watch what exactly happens to the brain when a child learns to read or is having problems reading.
It's fasinating stuff. If you ever want more info, I'd be glad to forward it on. Read Drs. Lyon's and Moat's degrees. Unreal!

Nope, never again should education be based off of unresearched methodology.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:14:30 (EST)
From: The foremost authority
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: on reading
Message:

[ Dr. Lyon ]
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:40:20 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: The foremost authority
Subject: Remediation Plus System
Message:
I'm a Keith Stanovich fan - check out his paper called 'The Matthew Effect'. Lieberman and Lieberman are also great.
[ Remediation Plus System ]
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:19:26 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Remediation Plus System
Message:
Read who is credited for this system; it's the same people I spoke of! The rest sort of run in the same echalon. I'll read up on this. I know one thing, Reid Lyon and Louisa Moats do not believe in mixing whole language and phonics for learning decoding skills.
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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:32:58 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Remediation Plus System
Message:
Yes, I noticed - and had already bookmarked your links (thanks!). I found the link I posted on a Stanovich search. Lieberman and Lieberman say that 'Whole Language' doesn't 'teach' anything that good teachers haven't been doing all along ... at the same time as they teach decoding skills. ;) Goodman claimed that learning to read is exactly like learning how to speak!!!? (ie, without explicit instruction) I could go on for hours on this topic, but I have too much other work to do (which is why I'm dashing off these posts - sorry) . I would be interested in hearing about what methods/approaches you are using if you ever have minute.

I've found that decoding programs don't usually teach what I call the fourth basic pattern - the vowel in most unstressed syllables reducing to 'schwa'or an 'obsure vowel', which is not the 'uh' that most people think it is. This seems to be essential for the pronunciation of multisyllabic words. As well, I find it important for the students to understand that aspect of foreign languages in English, which is why we have the Greek 'ph' (f) and 'ch' (k). In addition, if they come from a semi-literate environment, they haven't been exposed to the implicit stress system which depends upon the suffix. While we were waiting for admin to get some forms signed today, one of my students started a 'game' of thinking of all the words ending in '-ation'. It was great to hear them all making the connection and using the stress pattern to pronounce these words properly and with the long vowel sound before 'tion'. I have a great little book put out by the Public Service Commission of Canada that lists all the suffix stress patterns. I use it along with work on root words, suffixes and prefixes and my students gain a lot of reading facility this way, not to mention losing their feelings of intimidation wrt 'big' words.

I wish there were more teachers like you, but if we keep sharing what we know and learn, there will be!

Anna

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:46:37 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Also - The Tomatis Method
Message:

[ The Tomatis Method ]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:42:00 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sort of an Apology to ALL
Message:
First let me state that I am 'NOT' a troll. The question that I raised yesterday that may have disrupted this forum was a sincere one, and I apologize for not e-mailing Gerry directly about it. I too, still do stupid things in my life. What I won't apologize for though is my more than normal distrust these days of everything I see and hear. Can anyone relate to this? Being an ex-premie has a way of doing this to you. I received knowledge in 1974, and left in the late 80's after years of feeling like I was a part of Hitler's SS. What I mean by that is I was a part of 'M''s secret security team known as 'Roving Security' for all the years I was involved. All of you have seen me at one time or another while you were going through the darshan line as you approached 'M''s feet. My job was to deter any real or perceived threats to 'M'. So in my own perverse way, I feel I know each and every one of you. I've been lurking in this forum for a long time without feeling the need to post, but when I heard the possibility of 'M' being exposed through the media it got me excited and caused me to post. I really felt that whatever the medium was, at least it's a start and should not be ignored. When my post was deleted, I felt slighted and figured that everyone was just waiting for Tom Clancy to come to this forum and then write his next best seller. Sorry for the sarcasm, but that's just how I feel right now.
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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:33:26 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Got any good darshan-line stories?
Message:
Hi ED and welcome to the forum. Is this the first time you've posted? And, if so, how long have you been lurking?

deborah

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 09:07:03 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: hey ED-welcome 2 the free side
Message:
it must feel tremendous to step out into the broad light of day and make yourself known here.
I have questions i want to ask you about the world yyou moved in, being in 'roving security'. there is so much you could clear up for us.

i always had the feeling I was on a 'bongo list', and i have always wed to know if i was, and how one got on one, and what did you guys do to/with people you were told were/decided were bongos?
can you tell us stories of the episodes you witnessed or lived thru in your security years?
did maharaji come and give you orders personally?
was there a subculture, a mindset, that was required?

you couldnt have poked your head out at a better time. by all means--tell us. we have been waiting for years for someone to come out of the woodwork and lay it open for the world.
please--the floor is all yours.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:47:06 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Welcome Ed...
Message:
Dear Ed,

It's unfortunate that you had a difficult start here, and I understand your anger about it. It takes a lot of courage to read here then take that plunge to post only to be deleted.

I participated in that thread about NE, and well, sometimes Gerry has to do what he has to do. The deletion wasn't about you, there were other issues involved.

What you said about distrust as an ex-premie is very true. A bit of paranoia too? Hmmm? It's normal.

Maybe if you email the folks who offered here you will feel a bit more trusting. Richard is a wonderful guy--you probably know eachother and have friends in common from the cult.

I do thank you for your frankness and hope you will post more, tell us about your experiences in the m cult, and start to feel comfortable. Pull up a chair, the drink's on me. Let's talk.

Best to you :)
Cynthia J. Gracie
Vermont, USA

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:24:53 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Welcome Ed...
Message:
Marin county here! Do you know me? Was Katie Baier. Welcome!

Darlingwave@aol.com

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 06:32:00 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Welcome Ed...
Message:
Thanks Katie, I don't thinks so, but there is a possibility we might of met from reading your journey. I'm originally from Philadelhia. I've just moved to the west coast recently. Were you with Sulaksna in Philly in '74 ? I received knowledge from her then at the Philly dancers house.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:23:38 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Ed
Subject: and my apologies to you, Ed
Message:
Unfortunately you arrived just as troll hunting season opened. Thanks for telling us a bit about yourself.

You said: ''What I won't apologize for though is my more than normal distrust these days of everything I see and hear. Can anyone relate to this?''

Yes, I can completely, which is why I am supsicious of trolls. ;)

Anyway, welcome.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:34:16 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: and my apologies to you, Ed
Message:
Thanks you Pat. San Fran huh? Walnut Creek here.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:40:48 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Ed
Subject: Email whenever you want, Ed
Message:
And if ever you are in SF please let me treat you to lunch or dinner at my restaurant.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:13:22 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: richard@rogers-graphics
To: Ed
Subject: Thanks Ed
Message:
Ed,
Too bad you got caught up in a squabble first time on the forum. I hear a lot in this post that tells me your intentions were well placed. There are 'lively discussions' here from time to time regarding how to get our stories told. Please don't let that discourage you from sharing more of your story. Interesting about your security position. I'm quite sure you are known to many here. I was involved in the infamous darshan recovery area for several years and stood in the tunnel as people passed through. The recovery area was quite active during the mid to late 70's especially at the Kissimmee programs. We had huge tents with cots and attendants for the many folks assimilating their feelings. At the last of those big events, I was asked by Speedy (security guy) to stand just across from M and be ready to open the curtain for the security people and instructors who were there to bring out those who needed to have some time off their feet. Quite a remarkable scene. I think people, myself included, brought all of their hopes, fears and dreams and just let them go all at once. Sometimes with results ranging from hilarious to psychotic. Now that phenomenon would make a tremendous pschology thesis.

Thanks for having the class to apologize as you have. I respect that.

If you know me and want to email, I respect anonymity.

Richard Rogers, was in graphics at IHQ from '73 - '79

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:27:17 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Thanks Ed
Message:
Speedy, from Texas right? Remember Neil too? (from Houston) I was probably standing right next to you. I was at the front gate with Michael Nouri and also one of those guys on the motorbikes patrolling the grounds all night long. I don't recall me ever getting any sleep.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:06:24 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Names and faces
Message:
Can't recall Speedy's home but he was always in the thick of it when M was nearby. I don't know Neil by name but would surely recall the face, along with yours and many others.

Michael N. did gate security? Funny, my wife and I took her mom to see M in NYC in the mid-80's. Her usher was Nouri and that impressed her above all else. Her summation of M was that 'He is just like an Indian Billy Graham'. Ah, the wisdom of elders.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:14:07 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Thanks Ed
Message:
Yes, Nouri was at the gate. It was as if he were the token celebrity, welcoming everyone with that perfect Hollywood smile. Actually, he was a really fun guy to be around after cutting through all the superficial bullshit and he realized he wasn't auditioning for a screenplay.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:54 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: jed53@hotmail.com
To: Ed
Subject: Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL
Message:
I also did similar security around m from about 76-79 and lived in Acton ashram which looked after 'the Lords servants' for soke time.
Feel free to email me (above) if you want to.

Jethro(formely Eddie Fisher)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:06:45 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL
Message:
Then you know how the bar was raised regarding your service position as opposed to the people doing normal security such as seating, etc. After all, now you were responsible for the 'Life of the Perfect Master' !!! What a crock of shit !!! How did I ever fall for that? Thanks for you e-mail invite. I'd like to take you up on your offer after I calm down. Bye the way, Have you seen LIZ lately? (Just Kidding) I do still do have a warped sense of humor. At least something survived.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:11:41 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Re: Sort of an Apology to ALL
Message:
If we are talking about the same Liz, she used to do a lot of service around the ashram and made a wicked tosted cheese sandwich. I think she went off witgh Guy P.

Drop me a line sometime.

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:49:23 (EST)
From: Lookie Lou
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Did you contact Gerry? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:52:15 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Lookie Lou
Subject: Re: Did you contact Gerry?
Message:
No I didn't. He/She said the deletion of that post will be explained later. So, I'll wait.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:01:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Re: Did you contact Gerry?
Message:
Hi Ed,

Sorry if you were tossed in the bin with the trolls. Must have been suffocating in there.

There's a problem if people respond to trolls. See, trolls are here to disrupt threads and to make the forum look like a balled up nest of confusion.

My job, like the Filament's is to bring clarity. Personally I think I do a lot better job than he does.

Email me if you like. New folks are gonna have to be vetted somewhat, as it's troll season again.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:38:00 (EST)
From: New person
Email: None
To: All
Subject: GERRY! FA: Check your email
Message:
I left a very important email for you
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:22:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Hidden Enemy of Doubt
Message:
There's a brief essay about doubt on ELK that's interesting reading. Now that I'm out of the cult I'm amazed that I ever fell for the way we spoke of doubt in the abstract, bereft of content or context. Yet Maharaji speaks of many things this way, doesn't he (Gratitude, Appreciation, Clarity, etc.)? It's completely benumbing and guaranteed to stave off any hope of honest thought or independent examination for any who accept this abuse of language on its own terms. Even Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress put his various human traits in some sort of context. This stuff is bizarre.
[ The Hidden Enemy of Doubt ]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:43:13 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah but
Message:
It's not just a hidden enemy, it's a 'Huge, monstrous enemy' hahahaha

Ahhh Jesus....I could hardly read her gobbledegook all the way through. I thought 'that' experience was supposed to be 'so simple'....I think she could get a whole Phd thesis out of her struggles with that 'huge, monstrous enemy'.

It's weird though, it really is one of the main things M pushes. 'leave no room for doubt in your mind', 'never doubt the purity of the master'.

Looking back over my years as a premie and my struggles with the 'enemy' makes me realise that the mental gymnastics required to first accept this fictional enemy and then to continually struggle with it was just a load of tomfoolery instigated by the 'Master' as a catch all clause to save his ass whenever I saw through his bullshit.
Really, he just fucks with peoples heads .....and they are 'grateful' for it!!

I'm sure if you picked up any Joe Blow from the street, who doesn't even consider him/herself 'spiritual' or 'a practiser' or whatever but chuggs along with their work, family, rest and play.....the chances are that person would be a lot more sussed than Premies.

I'm really pissed with myself that I allowed him to fuck with my head for so long.What a waste of yeaaaaaaars.Ah well, mustn't grumble, as they say, .....just get on with it :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:03:11 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Grumble all you want, Dermot...
Message:
It's our turn to gripe about his non-holiness!

I also had a hard time reading that shit.

The more I read those poems and essays from ELK, the more I pity them because they are so totally screwed up in their minds. It takes a lot of effort to undue all that mindfuck.

Just today, in the middle of a bad snow and ice storm I was driving into town to pick up some groceries and stuff when my clutch blew out.

Luckily I know how to shift the car without a clutch, so I made it to the store and back home. But this eery little though passed through my head: 'if I still followed m, this wouldn't have happened.'

It shocked me that I would still think something like that. That the programming was still there. Anyone here knows I've been a ex for some time now. So I pushed that particular thought away and said to myself, ''your fucking clutch blew out, what could that possibly have to do with Maharaji?'' It's a freaking car--it can be fixed.

Now I feel better. Strange how those things happen when we least expect it. The important thing is that I do feel resentment about lost years. I think it's normal.

Love,
Cynth, who wants back wages from working at DECA, (yeah, right) :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:00:24 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Grumble all you want, Dermot...
Message:
Cynthia,
I'm glad you brought this up. I haven't even wanted to fully face it but I still get freaked when I'm stressed out and uttering prayers to the universe to get one of my teenagers home during nasty weather in one piece, or some such thing. To have had that 'luxury' of asking for grace in any situation all these years, and with his personal face attatched to it, well, it does go deep.

I remember once Marolyn telling this story in satsang how she was in a bad mood, and one of those big vip instructors was at the residence. He told her that M had said something really nice and she was in a dismissive mood, like 'Ya what?' The answer was 'Wherever Marolyn goes, grace follows.' It humbled her, so she said.

The point is, I felt like I had this secret protection, that if I practiced knowledge in the morning, I would be safe all day. And even when things didn't go so well, one of M's satsangs would explain it away, or so I thought.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:34:11 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Vicki/Cynthia
Message:
I've just re-read my post to Cynth (yeah I do that sometimes....pathetic huh?....well just checking spelling blah blah :) ) and noticed it appeared to be very breezy/nonchalent......

Actually I fully understand what you're both on about. I'm just determined not to cede any more of my self to M.....he's had enough of me! Time to stand on my own two feet....and face the music!

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 08:09:53 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Dermot
Message:
I'm trying Dermot, I'm trying real hard to get out of these residual mindsets!
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:25:42 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Jeeze !
Message:
Hi Cynthia

You still get thoughts like that and you've been a wayfarer for years

haven't you? Yes, the conditioning runs deep but I'm glad to report that I'm happy to fearlessly face the rest of my life without the Master of mind fuck!

Cheers-me-dear

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:23:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Addendum
Message:
It's in the 'Lives' Section, posted on January 25.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:40:58 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Language usage
Message:
You bring up a valid point. It makes me wonder if that wasn't part of the inticement. His use of language, the mahatmas' use of language and even Marilyn, made satsang seem different than ordinary, daily verbage.

It elevated the content, or lack thereof, onto a different plane, one that we weren't used to. We weren't used to anything that came in that package, foreign and slightly mystical.

Even today, for all the mainstream efforts, the way Maharaji talks, and instructors, and premies, is just off enough to put it into its own category. What the category is, I have no word for.

At programs, it's like everyone has lost their brains, listening to the conversations. The choice of words has to be just so. Conference calls are the worst. It would make me want to scream into the phone. The fake, phoney, politically correct phraseology and tone were nauseating.

When a person receives knowledge, it seems this manner of speech is instantly acquired as proof positive of admission into Klub Knowledge. It is then a way to identify each other. Those that don't know the 'speak' are considered oursiders.

I'm sure there's a good psych thesis here.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:11:49 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Y'all realize of course...
Message:
...the trolls are coming out of the wordwork just like Jean Michael predicted to me in an email I didn't answer (sorry JM.)

As the cult winds down to nothingness thanks to natural attrition and a huge push from ex-premies, some of the remaining faithful will be turning into cyber sneaker bombers.

I urge restraint in responding to these trolls. Some I'm blindly deleting because I haven't the time to read them all but I can see the effect on the forum:

It takes us away from Maharaji and the cult and focuses on trolls. Naturally the level of discussion plummets.

Now if these partially deleted threads start to look like nonsense because of the deletions the whole thread will go.

Bear with me while I'm trying to deal with this new wave of troll attack. I'm learning as I'm going.

Also I have a couple of important (to me) projects going on in the real world so my time is limited.

If Pat or anyone with the password sees troll posts, go ahead and delete them. I'd appreciate it and above all

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:01:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: My next prediction
Message:
is that they'll try to become intelligent, and get in touch with us personnally and in a 'friendly' and 'open' manner.

This has already started with me ..... a few phone calls, dinners etc. Premies are going to feed me and invite me for a while.

And it's funny(or sad if you prefer) believe me. They're pathetic.

Next thing will be the million $ I'm still waiting for ...

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:25:32 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey, what about me???
Message:
I could do with a free lunch, and the restaurants here in the Latvian countryside are extremely reasonable. So, premies, isn't it worth a plane ticket to Lettonie to see if I'm corruptable?

John the misses the free lunches from when he was responsible for IT contractor recruitment at an international investment bank.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:15:40 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: My next prediction
Message:
I look forward to seing if these predicted behaviour patterns actually manifest. If they do, I'm afraid that they will simply be a catalyst for a great show of cyinicism from me.

At the begining of April last year, I wrote this letter to a number of premies who were heavily involved in the organisation of EV activity in the North East of England where I had been regional co-ordinator for a number of years from 1994-99:

'I am writing this letter to those of you who I worked closely with and whom I most trusted for their sincerity and honesty during my years of involvement in the North East with Maharaji and Elan Vital, namely: (here I inserted 6 names).

After 30 years of more or less continuous involvement with Majharaji, I have taken the very clear decision that I no longer consider him to be my teacher nor wish to be associated with him. Earlier this week I cancelled my standing order to EV, which represented to me an ending of my commitment to him. It will probably come as no surprise to you that the reason for this stems from the very serious allegations made against him by a number of people who have spent considerable time in close proximity to him. the witness statements of Maharaji's use and abuse of women, drugs and alcohol over a very sustained period of time have put me in an impossible position with him. Not that all the behaviour portrayed is inherently wrong, but from Maharaji it reeks of a hypocrisy which I canot even begin to condone or accept.

I know that many premies take the stance that 'as long as Knowledge works for me, then Maharaji can do whatever he chooses in his personal life'. I too have probably reconciled doubts over the years with such reasoning. However, the evidence now seems too strong to ignore, and no-one (Elan Vital nor Maharaji) seems to be refuting it. I was maybe not the most dynamic or astute premie in the pack over the years, but I always tried to be guided by siincerity. I trusted that even the most stupid mistakes could be eventually forgiven if the motive was pure. I no longer believe in the purity of Maharaji's intentions, and that leaves me with no basis for continuing my relationship with him.

I never had the opportunity over the 30 years to spend time close to Maharaji, so had to depend on the reports of people such as instructors for that kind of intimate picture. I trusted what I heard - the image of the master who, although mischievous and playful, spent his every waking moment working towards the fulfilment of his devotees. However, I now firmly believe that Maharaji has feet of clay and that is not what I signed up for in 1971, and not how Maharaji continued to portray himself, either directly or by inference, for most of the years I have been involved. From my knowledge of you, I am confident that each of you has at one time truly believed in Maharaji as the living incarnation of God, which is what my relationship with him was based on. I have never sought simply a meditation teacher and certainly would not have dedicated the love, devotion, time and resources that I did to Maharaji to such a teacher.

I preferred to be open and honest with you rather than simply leave you to find out second hand. In conclusion, I hold good memories of our contacts over the years and wish you all the happiness I wish myself'.

Not one of the recipients of the letter, nor any other premie from the local organisation has made any contact with me since the day I sent that letter. And, as I said in a previous posting, my wife who was in no way implicated in the letter has been 'damned' by association with me and equally black-listed.

I had spent hundreds and hundreds of hours with these people over the years, and yet paranoia engendered by cult conditioning simply disables human responses.

When I first left the cult last year, I went through the gammut of emotions which I recognise time after time in new posters: the initial terror of betraying the Lord, which soon turns to anger and biterness, then to a sense of self shame and stupidity for having allowed oneself to be have been duped by such an obvious scam, and slowly slowly a sense of relief as normality begins to manifest and his hold lets go.

And yet, the years of submission and conditioning do not let go easily. This very concept of normality is the very thing that m did his very best to destroy in his followers. To destroy the belief that anything this world has to offer has any validity: to destroy the sense of family, relationships, the value of intellect and fun, of striving and ambition. I genuinely miss nothing of the years of involvement in his so-called mission, except the one-time great sense of community which, Margaret Thatcher style, he also destroyed through implications of guilt, mis-directed energy, lack of focus.

I now find myself often walking down the street, thinking how good life is, yet aware that the way I lead it in no way conforms to his teachings. I love and get great joy from my 2 grown-up children, I love my wife, I love having simple friendships, my job is fun. I never meditate, my once-while spiritual aspirations no longer exist, but I feel a fullness, which he tried to convince me(successfully for 30 years) could not exist without him. However, I have to beat back the conditioned thoughts which stem from his belittling of more or less everything that non-premies hold dear, his way of entrapment.

Yet, although I rarely post here these days, I still avidly read the contributions to the Forum, and continue to gain confidence and clarity from the many beautiful people who have have had both the good fortune and the strength to break free from the shameless charlatan who ensnared us so powerfully in his self-serving scam of a cult. All praise to the many of you who work so hard and selflessly to maintain this forum in order to enable other premie victims to step away.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:30:36 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Great post, Nick. Thanks. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:41:50 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Dear Nick, Thank you for this (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:21:01 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Re: My next prediction
Message:
Long time no hear Nick.....thought you'd returned to the cult:)

Nah, I didn't really think that!

Great post. Please send my regards to the Lady of the house.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:40:47 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: **Great post Nick**
Message:
And what an honest and sincere letter. How shocking that not one of those people even replied.
You're so right, he even destroyed the one good thing we had i.e. a sense of community. It used to really irk me in recent years when he would ridicule us for treating an event as a social occasion. He'd say something like...'and you ask each other what have you been doing, and it's not going to do you any good to know' When really, meeting old friends was the best thing about an event.
Well said Nick, I identified with so much of what you said, I hope we hear more from you.
Kelly
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:25:29 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Wonderful post. Thanks, Nick [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:49 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: My next prediction
Message:
So are they pretending to be ex'es?
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:10:16 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: My next prediction
Message:
Not sure. A bit desillusioned .... and wanting to be 'friends' again.

I'll keep you informed.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:35:19 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Email from trolls pretending to be exes
Message:
Several of us have had emails from people claiming to be new ex-premies. The emails sound like fishing expeditions: ''I also hate Rawat and want to get him. So what is your plan to take him out?''

Of course, it is done more subtly than that and more friendly but that is the thrust of the emails.

I will not respond to people who email me anonymously for the reason that I post under my own name, my posts are in the archives full of personal details and CAC published whatever I did not. So I am well known, well-trusted by exes and the anonymous trolls and emailers are mysteries who need to even the playing field before expecting my trust.

And, yes, Gerry, I will delete trolls and I will not feed them.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:42:40 (EST)
From: WPC girl
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hi , I'm new here
Message:
What a wonderful oasis - I thought all the premies were brain dead. I'm new to this and I'm amazed by the revelations here and on EPO which I just looked at today. I thought I was the only black sheep in the Family of Love.

Remember the torchlight at dawn when we were awoken for exercises on the Surrey Downs at dawn? And those wonderful days on Clapham Common in our army fatigues? Look forward to talking to you all. My friend is helping me with all this as I'm not online at home yet, but I soon will be, if just for this.

Jai sat chit anand (said with irony)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:21:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: WPC girl
Subject: Re: Hi , I'm new here
Message:
Hi WPC girl.
Wre you ever in or around the Acton ashram? Many WPCers (rajaji worshippers) came around there.

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:20:22 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: WPC girl
Subject: Welcome to F7
Message:
It was a pleasure to read your post and I look forward to hearing more from you. -Vicki
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 13:40:38 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Welcome to F7, WPC girl
Message:
And I hope you get a computer soon because I am looking forward to hearing much more from you.

Patrick Conlon,
San Francisco

But I got K in UK and was there till 76 so we may have friends in common.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:17:21 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Welcome, WPC girl
Message:
Thanks for sharing your story. I hope to hear more from you as you feel to do so.

All the best,
Richard

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:53:16 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: WPC girl
Subject: Re: Hi , I'm new here
Message:
Hi WPC girl,
I was one too, and yes I do remember those exercises on the Surrey Downs in our army fatigues. For some strange reason they were dyed navy blue. My arms still ache when I remember those sessions just before Millenium where we all linked arms and formed a human protection chain. Then the biggest and beefiest of the boys charged at us and tried to get through. The bruises lasted for weeks. And all to protect our Lord. Was it? I have to admit, it even seemed mad to me at the time.
Were you in the truck when we were stopped by the police? I can still remember their faces when they opened up the back and peered in!!
Ah, the memories!
I'm very glad you've found your way here. This is really the company of truth, and you are very welcome.
I surely must know you, why don't you e-mail me and we'll see. Absolute discretion guaranteed!
All the best
Karen
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:07:02 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: WPC girl
Subject: Hello and welcome [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:22:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Welcome WPC girl...
Message:
I look forward to hearing more from you.

Best,
Cynthia J. Gracie
Vermont, USA

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:20:35 (EST)
From: Zoey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Flushed the pills.
Message:
I posted my darshan experiences (all true by the way) to make my wife laugh and also all of you. Just read Babs message about being afraid of punishment from above and I realized that this site is heartfelt and a source of great pride to many of you.
I removed Prem from the equation in 1981 after practising the 4 techniques 4-6 hours a day for 6 years. I spent every lunch and coffee break doing the techniques. It had taken me 3 years of attending discourses every night to finally be accepted by a bona fide priest of Prem to receive the techniques that my wife at the time had told me about 3 years earlier. I didn't experience anything I wasn't the day before and went home really confused. What did Prem want ???????
I practised and begged, practised some more and begged some more. In the end I was only begging. I stopped practising, started drinking and doping. I was worthless, life was worthless. I bought a shotgun, sawed the barrel, walked into a forest, turned the cannon around but then this peace came over me. I'd never felt at peace for one second of my life before. Couldn't end it. I returned home to a wife and newborn daughter and began to long climb out of an overwhelming despair brought to me by my own weaknesses spoonfed fed by a demented teenager westernizing Sikhkism.
Today, I spend my days letting go to what breathes me, fooling around with my 3 daughters, and giving myself to my wife. In an odd way, I thank my life for Prem. I'll never be fooled by vendors of foma (what Kurt Vonnegut calls soothing bullshit) again.
Imagine the incredible mindfuck of having a person travelling the world telling people that what they need is inside of them but they need him to get to it.
What makes me has come through for me at crucial times (it turned every darshan into a keystone comedy) and it's all I hold on to. Whatever happens in my life doesn't come from anything in my life but from life itself.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:42:57 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Zoey
Subject: Nice post, Zoey. Thanks [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:57:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zoey
Subject: Do I know you?
Message:
Are you who I think you are?

Jim

Why not email me:

jimheller@shaw.ca

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:36:33 (EST)
From: Zoey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Do I know you?
Message:
Of course I am. Damn it Jim, check your dilithium crystals !!!
Let's talk through the Forum. The fact that I am breathed is really amazing to me if not to you. What I like the most is that it reaches from inside, says nothing, demands nothing and throughout my long ordeal with Maharaj Ji, the only thing that did not abandon me. It's the opposite of what Maharaj Ji talks about. He's always talking about 'getting ready for...', 'beginning to get worthy of...' 'being able to begin to get ready ...bla bla bla'.
What breathes me says 'Forget all that crap, here, another one !'
So, I hope your guitar picking has improved. It was way better than Lorenzo's, but then he played wearing mitts.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:27:19 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Zoey
Subject: Oh Hi Welcome, Zoey (loft?)...
Message:
It's hard, isn't it?

Please don't despair too greatly, there has been so much genuine care for me here i can't tell you.

It shall be the same for you.

Big hug.
xxx

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:52:44 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Quiet: from thread below
Message:
I exited in early 1997.

The personal things that happened to me in the cult are well documented in the archives.
The reasons overall were because I finally understood that prempal has consistently lied, consistently vamped peoples love, dedication and good intentions, and I see him as a spiritual rapist.

Since becoming an ex I have found out that he is also a paedophile protector and a revisionist. His silence on Jagdeo totally shocked me. I always thought that prempal cared for children . It is clear that he let Jagdeo carry on touring after he (prem) heard the allegations against Jagdeo.

I also had no idea about the extent of the financial scams that have happened throughout the years. I faithfully gave all my money to HIM during my ashram years. Even after I was thrown out onto the streets, I managed to send him money.

I find it unacceptable that 'He' is living off exploiting others. Prem Rowatt is the antithesis of what he presented himself as AND presents himself to be. For me he is on the same par as SatyaSaiBaba, except with a far less number of idiots believing he is some concept of god.
If you have not already done so, I suggest you do some reading on Rahdasoami/Beas history. Not so much for that argument about lineage, but more to read the satsangs of earlier 'masters'. You'll see exactly where m got all his stuff from (and all the Maharajis in the world).

This info is well documented on EPO and can be challenged.

Now here is what you posted in answer to my question “Why are you an Ex”

‘May be I didnt like people doing my thinking for me. Maybe i dont like the idea of people attacking other people because they ask questions. Maybe I dont like sensership. How about you Jethro?’

Just to clarify,
Who in the cult people did your thinking for you?
Who in the cult attacked you for asking questions?
Can you tell me more about the cult censorship you mention?

It seems like you have some valuable information to give out.

Regards
Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:06:44 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: To Quiet: from thread below
Message:
Well Jethro I exited a year before you. We have simular experiances.
For you answers
1) Maharaji, instructors, co -ordinators.
2)Maharaji, Instructors, co-ordinators and other premies when i questioned just about anything that was against the so called Polocies.
3)Not being able say 'hey what you said was wrong , that disnt happen, I was there' statements like that you were wized off some where and given heavy Satsang along the lines ' you were mistaken, it happened like this.........its a bit heavy on your heart when the person who is telling you this is a person who you related to as an asperant and in your opinion is one of the greatest people you know. Ever had that happen? Thats only example. I got too many to mention , besides Ive pissed enough people off on here already.

Information........nothing credible enough to take to a court.
Q

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:32:13 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Re: To Quiet: from thread below
Message:
Not being able say 'hey what you said was wrong , that disnt happen, I was there' statements like that you were wized off some where '...given heavy Satsang along the lines ' you were mistaken, it happened like this.........its a bit heavy on your heart when the person who is telling you this is a person who you related to as an asperant and in your opinion is one of the greatest people you know. Ever had that happen? '

Yes, something similar.
I did a part-time psychotherapy course in the early 90s. On the course there were 3(I think) premies including myself and 2 aspirants(as well as 30 ordinary mortals).
One of the aspirants became a friend of mine and she always used to talk to me about m and k. Amongst our conversations I told her about the early years of m being LOTU etc. She came to me the following month and told me that Belkis had said that all that early stuff that I had talked about never happened and that she(the aspirant) should watch out for olsder premies. Another person called Denise Row(who was once an instructor, I don't know about now) told the aspirant that she Denise never knew me.

Anyway that was sorted out by my showing the aspirant the film 'Satguru has come' that has a lot of early LOTU footage.

It's strange having someone you have lived with in the same ashram say they don't know you. I lived with both Belkis and Denise in the same ashram and they both knew me well. In fact now that I come to think of it, I gave Belkis satsang about entering the ashram AND I gave her driving lessons.

I somehow buried it for another 6 years and remained loyal to M.

It's perfideous.

To be a follower of m one has to kill one's own humanness.

Now how about you sharing more about your experiences and where you lived etc.
When did you find out about Jagdeo?

You don't have to give out who you are.
It's ok to tell the truth now.
Ther are no rotten vegatable outside the cult,,,in fact the veggies in ex-land are all organic.

Bye for now, I have to go and but a thigamygig for my daughter's clarinet

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:00:46 (EST)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is Tim Gallwey embarrassed by LORD MAHARAJI
Message:
I could be wrong but it sure seems as though Mr. Gallwey has omitted any reference to OUR LORD MAHARAJI on his website. He used to dedicate his books to his Guru Maharaji and we were all so proud. Gave us that goose bumpey type feeling just to read it.

Now, in his workshops, he charges $1250 american(lodging and dinner not included)and I'll bet he doesn't even mention our wonderful, wonderful LORD MAHARAJI.

We need premies to stand up and sing HIS praises just like the good ol' days. Mr. Gallwey is in a great position to do this, yet, he apparently allows his workshoppers to believe the message is his and not that of our beloved LORD MAHARAJI.

Tim Gallwey, I implore you. Stop being embarrassed by your involvement with our LORD MAHARAJI. Sing HIS praises in public. HIS GRACE will be with you.

Otherwise, you are no more than a cheaper imitation of Anthony Robbins.

I love you my Maharaji!
[ Tim G. seems embarrassed ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:38 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: embarrassment
Message:
I notice Valerio doesn't mention Maharaji either.
So strange how premies , including me 6 months ago, act for all the world as if they were ashamed of him.
Don't talk about him openly to whoever,
Even though going to a video is supposed to be an inspiring, uplifting and soo valuable experience, would it get mentioned in the same way a good film would, say the next day at work?
And I would talk about the places I'd been to 'events' without mentioning the only reason I went there.
I worked somewhere for two years, recently , without telling a single person about Maharaji.
I sometimes told people I did meditation, but (with most people) not a word about the teacher or that it was the 'true knowledge'
The only people I would talk about it to were other premies or 'seekers' who asked about my tiny little picture on the mantle, and Jehovah's witnesses I wanted to get rid of.
I was ashamed, but not open enough to see it.
Peg
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:23:37 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: All
Subject: look, Quiet...
Message:
look, Quiet-
if we were all talking face to face in a real world room, you wouldn't stand out at all, because spoken language isn't visible, its audible. illiterates can pass quite well in the real world because of that fact. They only get tripped up when confronted with something that requires being able to read and write.
Here on the internet, the only way we have of presenting ourselves is in print--unless you have voice chat, which this isn't.
If your terribly spelling is real, then i find it hard to believe that you could even get accepted into Law School. You wouldn't be able to pass english 101. Your professors would reject your application and send you to remedial classes and require you to satsfactorily pass those tests before allowing you into the mainstream curriculm.
Furthermore, reading and writing, like all lanfuage, is learned by imitation and repetition. The brain is prewired to absorb it that way. You see it, you say it, you write it, you strive to recreate what you have witnessed others do, in order to be understood by them. Not succeeding at it dooms you to isolation and inability to extablish communication with others.
With the amount of reading that Law students are required to accomplish in order to keep up with their coursework, your eyes and brain have to read and process the same correctly spelled words over and over again. in the normal course of brain adaptation, your brain ought to have gradually noticed and corrected itself to recognize and reproduce the consistent configuration of words it has read by now.
A newborn has to hear the same word 5000 times before it tries to say it for the first time aloud.
If you're old enough to be in Law school, you have seen these words wou claim not to be able to spell far more than 5000 times, by now.
So i don't buy it. Lawyers aren't allowed to be sloppy, careless, inattentive and slipshod. The picture doesnt add up.
It is human nature to practice something if one yearns to get it right, to master it, to attain a targeted level of ability, where one is secure in what one knows one can do. You don't evidence such a trait. That goes against what is known about human development.

Perhaps you had a head injury, a minor stroke, an inborn or acquired learning disability, that permanently impaired your language center in the left brain. If so, I find it all the more unsupportable to believe that you could have been admitted into Law school. I could only see it if you are a disabled student who has someone who translates your writings for you, and cleans them and proofreads and retypes them up, before you submit them for grading.
I have two deaf friends, whose written english is flawless. I have had blind friends whose spelling in
Braille was likewise flawless.
I have two disabled friends in their 30's who still can't remember to punctuate at all, and they are both obsessive writers, by hand. They generate volumes, daily.
All I can say to you, therefore, is, either you are faking it, being lazy, or brain damaged.

In any case, I can't read anything you post and take it seriously, because you don't make the effort to learn the language as it actually is.

look--we have a few other posters here whose first language isnt english.
salam is arabic first. salsa is south american spanish. jean michel is french. they all make forgiveable errors in their writing at times, but its clear that they work with diligence at getting better all the time.
we all applaud when salam manages to get a post up without a single spelling error, and he does manage!

but you don't seem to be credible. a poor speller doesn't cover it. it doesnt jive with the big picture.

suppose you tell us the name and location of the Law School you are enrolled in? maybe the academic standing of the institution would lend us some insight as to the veracity of your claims.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:46:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: look, Quiet...
Message:
Bloody brilliant post, Janet. I salute you.

But you didn't analyze Quiet correctly. He can be summed up in three words - Australian smart-arsed male. I think you know what I mean. :C)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:53:30 (EST)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Studying with dyslexia
Message:
Hi Baiji, Pat, Quiet, and all

I haven't posted here for ages, but I do read and benefit. Just thought I'd jump in here because I think I've got a point of view that's worth putting forward (usually, other people make the points I might have made much more succinctly and much quicker than I could).

I just wanted to point out that in Australia, it is quite possible to attend university if you've got a specific learning disability (eg dyslexia). Australian universities all operate under anti-discrimination laws that translate into policies which allow entry to people with disabilities who can reach the appropriate level of achievement with support. Disabilities officers are employed to help arrange the support students need. In the case of someone with a specific learning problem around spelling, that support would probably be along the lines of access to a computer with a spell-check and/or a dictation program, which they could use in exams as well as to complete assignments at home. I've had quite a bit to do with people who are dyslexic, and many are very intelligent.

I don't know for sure that Quiet isn't a 'persona', but I surely don't know for sure that he is. I think it's very important to give people the benefit of the doubt, for the reasons Baiji noted above. For me, this site was a life-saver some years ago, and I would hate to see anyone who turns here for support turned away through too-hasty assumptions.

Quiet, you need to be aware that a number of people have posted here as 'personas' rather than as themselves. Other posters have taken them at face value and have been pretty upset when they've discovered that they've put their energy into communicating with someone who, basically, didn't really exist.

One way around the lack of a spell-check in the forum software might be to write your posts in Word and then cut and paste them into a post.

And it might also be a good idea to repost something about your story of becoming an ex-premie. Then people know something of who you are and can respond accordingly.

Best wishes to all. And thanks to all for keeping this Forum alive. It continues to help me and is so important for people coming out of the cult.

Diz

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:12:33 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Re: Studying with dyslexia
Message:
Hi Diz, Thank you for pointing this out.

I do concur with your factual statements re dyslexia and learning opportunities in the Commonwealth of Australia.

If I have a bone of contention at all, it is with the inherent tone of the individual postings mentioned, not so much their content.

It is rather difficult to detect someone's intention minus vocal inflection, phrasing and body language to assist their monologue.

But speaking for myself, I know I attempt to take extra efforts to make my feelings clear through the limited language skills i have available to me.

I do go back once and peruse what i have written to check any typo's.

I don't really think about this more than it being a consideration to be helpful to those reading, and that it will facillitate my being understood more completely.

I am usually very tired when i come here and i don't want to waste anyone's time, my own included.

Tangiel arguments re He said/She said serve no constructive purpose in my mind and we could all help each other better by filtering our own crap a bit more responsibly.

As if I have a clue!!! HA!

In the words of a recently departed wise fool

Peace & Lentils

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:58:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Thanks, Diz. Nicely said.
Message:
I'm not dismissing Quiet out of hand. Your advice to introduce yourself politely and tell a bit of your story is really important. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:21:18 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Drop It Quiet, Be a bit Quiet...Love to You(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:48:37 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please Guys, Would you Please..
Message:
conduct yourselves with a sensitivity to the rest of us here?

I honestly welcome all here, as I know I feel I was welcomed.

This site is a lifeline, for some people, myself very much included, who are going through the most difficult time of their lives.

When we enter here and find a few personalities engaging in semantics or muscle flexing, it serves no other purpose than to further the heartache.

I, for one, come here to glean solid information about m and his minions, in order to help me process a trauma that has no currently tangeable bounds.

Internicine squabbling, does nothing to enhance my healing or to provide a factual account on which any sincere person viewing here can make an intelligent conclusion by.

Reams of absorbable information are available on ex premie.org

Prior reading of this site enabled me to get 'up to speed' and to help me assimilate into the process of extrication.

There is much kindness and understanding here, but may I say, the qualities that we originally held to be true, remain so still.

Respect, compassion, common sense and dare I say it, a tad of humility, will never go astray.

We are all outraged, well I am, I do not want revenge, I just need to understand how this could have happened, so I can love myself again and trust the world that i live in.

Please lets be human with each other.
Love
Bai Ji

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:50:27 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Re: Please Guys, Would you Please..
Message:
Hey Quiet,

You have not upset me, I have been upset by none other than my Beloved, my Lord, my one True Master

My mere brothers and sisters pale into insignificance in the face of this!

I appreciate your thoughtful post toward me, though I have to ask you 'why do you think you have 'Detractors' (your word) Here?

May I suggest that you and we take a small step backwards and start again?

Please READ as much as you can of EPO.
Then insert yourself accordingly here.

In my limited experience, this is very much a place to express heartfelt emotions re M and exiting.

Not an arena for Sticking to One's Guns if you can understand what I mean.
By the way, thank you for your wishes for my happiness, if I ever do, it will be about fucking time.

Love to you
Bai ji XXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:47:55 (EST)
From: Stevie Ji
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Nice job, Bai Ji, You did it again
Message:
Bai Ji, I swear I was feeling everything you've just said last night, but, fearful that I couldn't say it as well as you just did without sounding like I was complaining, I just kept quiet.

Thank you so much for addressing this sensitive topic so eloquently, sensitively, respectfully and intelligently. It needed to be said and you said it so well.

I too would like to ask that everyone please take to heart what Bai Ji is telling us. Yes, we are all still in various stages of pain and anger as we unravel layer after layer of deeply buried 'drips' and other repressed stuff from his world but taking our frustration out on each other instead of dealing with our anger in kinder and more respectful ways will only prolong the pain and suffering further.

Your soothing words are a potent balm to my recovering heart and are giving me new glimpses into how deep the human heart can go.

In beautiful and tender ways, you are proving to be a kind of "Moses" leading M's "Israelite-like exes" thru the wilderness of F7.

I'll stop. I can not improve on your prayer. Thanks again so much Bai Ji. Truly magnificent stuff.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:54:08 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Stevie Ji
Subject: Well said, Bai Ji
Message:
Bai Ji,

Well said and heart felt. Many of us cringe when all the sandbox squabbling begins. Worse yet, many valued posters withdraw from participation here because it seems pointless with all the food fights. Thank goodness there are people like yourself willing to stand up and tell it like it is. There's much to explore here as to how it happened, how it affected us and how we saw the way out.

Richard

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:52:26 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: total agreement here
Message:
bai ji.. I saw some of the Altlanta Video yesterday and some of the back Passages vid.. well as much as I could stomach.. it did make me feel queasy.

Have u seen em ?

Its quite distressing to see how blatant and visible the manipulation which he and his revisionist pals indulge in has become to me.

I dont know whether its the illumination of this place, or just that they have become WORSE.. I suspect that through the good offices and rough and tumble of F7 my perspective has been broadened and widened and, most importantly, supported.

It really was like looking through the window from the outside... those two Videos are the worst shot-in-the-foot which maharaji has evr made.

He IS responsible - yet his cowardice makes him constantly and insidiously deflect blame elsewhere in order to maintain his fragile ego.

The thing that got me was the language used by people like Ron Geaves and Good Grief dont the PAMs on Back Passages look unhappy !!!

(Apart from Glen who seems to be flourishing in his Rochdale City Council turned European parliament personae :)) !)

Especially the dreadful American women - incidentally at least one of those interviews was filmed prior to 1999.

The language used is creepy.'. maharaji himself' and his egotistical pause riddled presentation to a room of wallflowers.... YIKES

'communicating about the possibility of Knowledge' ?? - I think the awful truth is that maharaji has fallen for the trap of thinking that because you have a name for something.. you actually know what it is.

And unfortunately, all he seems to have is a big bag of words... it is the rhythm, the pauses and the pace of his attention grabbing presentations which calm the mind... NOT what he says.

The Master's 'Message' is Vague and Assumptive in extreme. Dangerous stuff.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:31:56 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: 'Back Passages' LOL
Message:
Hi Loaf,
You say.
'I dont know whether its the illumination of this place, or just that they have become WORSE.. I suspect that through the good offices and rough and tumble of F7 my perspective has been broadened and widened and, most importantly, supported.'

It really is interesting how blatant it all seems now and how clearly we can see through the whole charade. I think it is both because of our new perspective and because the goo and gang have got WORSE.
Did you notice that during the Atlanta training, M said they were making a DVD of it so everyone could have the same training. I wonder whether they ever did, are they mad enough?
Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:48:10 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: 'Back Passages' LOL
Message:
Kelly,
They made a roadshow version. It's called a KIT training. It's a big secret operation, in that it takes promises of security just to get the promo video, noteably referred to as 'The Michael Nouri video'. It's hysterical that they all think this is some great venture, Maharaji up close and personal. It's a joke.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:03:51 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: The KIT training
Message:
Hi Vicki,
So they really did it? Who did they take the training to and how long did that last? Are they still doing these trainings? sorry so many questions, I'm just curious.. and utterly amazed! You're right, its a joke.
Kelly
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:17:48 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Hi Loafi Ji... Hurts don't it?..
Message:
No I haven't yet seen the Atlanta Traing Sesh.
I am aiming to do so though.

Historically, I have enough personal data to continue the thread through to it's, un natural conclusion.

I am filled with ambivolence, I know that some of the premies who have been out for longer, may not understand my vacillation.

Well, yes you will as you all have gone through this.

My sense of alleigence to m is so imbued in me that I pivot moment by moment.

It is not coercion by F7 postings alone, that have brought me to my conclusions.

It has been a life time of discrepancies and Core Level Insults, that I happily deferred in my belief that M was my Lord my All to me.

How can I express my feelings of betrayal.

It has affected me on every functioning (or more aptly...non- functioning) level, of my life.

Thanks Loafie XXXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:54:17 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Hi Bai JI... Hurts don't it?..
Message:
Hi Bai Ji.
We haven't spoken before, I am an intermittent visitor to the forum, but I remember so well how I felt just over a year ago, when I first woke up to the awful truth.
You talked about learning to love yourself again... for me it has also been a question of learning to trust myself again. Especially learning to trust my own judgement. Mostly I settle for uncertainty!
I think it's a lot healthier than the 'clarity' that M bangs on about in his complacent way.

I have been very moved by your heartfelt posts, do feel free to e-mail me. I can also let you have a copy of the Atlanta training if you want one.
Love Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 08:45:03 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Thank you Kelly, I shall talk with you (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:42:07 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Loafi Ji and Bai Ji
Message:
Brilliant, Loafie. Once again. Glad you saw that vid. My final one and I turned it off after 20 minutes.

Bai Ji, please watch that vid. Your ambivalence will evaporate instantly and all your dilemmas will be solved. Promise.

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