Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 30, 2002 To: Feb 04, 2002 Page: 4 of: 5


__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Yes, you're entitled -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:03:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Gail -:- OOOPS, Sorry -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:24:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ salsa -:- shut up, u both -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:59:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- Ok -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:39:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Calling Gerry -:- Time for another deletion? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:28:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Time for another deletion? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:05:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thank you, Livia. Well said! [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:27:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Anandaji -:- This thread reminds me... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:06:16 (EST)

Joe -:- Email Address for TIM GALLWEY? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:18:17 (EST)
__ McDuck -:- tg@theinnergame.com -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:25:45 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thank you -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:57:25 (EST)
__ __ McDuck -:- Funny, -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:44:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Yes it is, isn't it???? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:51:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Yes, you would -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:14:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Yes, you would -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:12:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Declare victory and give up -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:23:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Declare victory and give up -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:43:26 (EST)

__ Livia -:- Re: A sujestion -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:39:56 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Thanks Livia... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:00:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Livia -:- Calling Bai Ji -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:15:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Calling Bai Ji and Livia -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:35:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Why would anyone take you seriously, Quiet? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:17:07 (EST)

Relayed from EV UK email listing -:- Special Update -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:36:39 (EST)
__ La-ex -:- Hey, they stole that from me!! -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:12:30 (EST)
__ __ la-ex -:- Of course, Yorum's in the picture too..nt -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:15:35 (EST)
__ The Maharaji of Malibu's -:- Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$ -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:07:41 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$ -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:16:45 (EST)
__ ChrisP -:- Re: Special Update -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:53:33 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Warm Welcome CP.. You are Welcome (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:01:49 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Warm Welcome CP.. love your sense of humor [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:44:49 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- the cult has toasted you? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:10:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Eric -:- Re: the cult has toasted you? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:51:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- lol, Eric. As it happens ... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Eric -:- Re: lol, C.Q. As it happens ... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:35:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Oy vey already Batman, already? LOL! (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:57:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Final drip stories. Thanks Eric -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:15:56 (EST)
__ __ __ ChrisP (the other Chris) -:- LOL :) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:42:52 (EST)
__ cq -:- M's *'FRESH'* approach ??? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:06:44 (EST)

Sulla -:- February Scheduled Satellite etc. -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:54:30 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Recalls a Garage at Raja Ji's -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:29:33 (EST)
__ __ Sulla -:- Re: Recalls a Garage at Raja Ji's -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:09:27 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- M's favor to women -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:53:38 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Yep -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:11:46 (EST)
__ __ Or Call It -:- 'Drool From The Master's Mouth' (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:36:47 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- Well, if, as Anth is always telling us - -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:38:06 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- In the drivels' repository -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:49:54 (EST)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Please read your mail nt -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:59:49 (EST)

210 -:- rawat's cult -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:11:03 (EST)
__ cq -:- 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:05:03 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- Re: 'logic is worthless' ? -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:11:02 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:08:03 (EST)

housemum -:- OTS's post from below inserted here -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST)
__ janet -:- denver residence -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:22:59 (EST)
__ __ Flashback -:- You already met her before -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:30:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Basic Truth -:- Real Version -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- A few more missing pieces -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:33 (EST)
__ __ Dave Punshon -:- The Producers -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:50:07 (EST)
__ __ __ berni -:- ***FUNNIEST OF FORUM***** -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:18:57 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- M urban legend # 29 -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:59:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Hosting M's urban legends -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:09:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- M's Urban legend Ulcer cause -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:10:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I hate to say this - but you're wrong -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:34:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ someone who remembers -:- You're right Dave -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:24:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- God, they even revise the urban ledgends [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:41:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Lol Brian [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:01:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Re: M's Urban legends--speaking of which -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:01:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- cause I've eaten to much sweets (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:52:55 (EST)
__ __ Livia -:- Re: denver residence -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:57:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Closest I can come to an explanation -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:40:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- That's It StevieJi, I'm going back!!!! (nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:54:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Whoa, tender heart, hang on a second -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:37:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Tsokay, I was joking..check your mail (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:04:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Whew! There is a God, thank God -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:40:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Livia, I had these experiences too..... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:43:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Re: mystical experience -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:59:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Maharaji protects rapist Jagdeo -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EST)
__ __ __ To Livia -:- They were both horney for each other -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:09:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: They were both horney for each other -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:15:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Dear Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:02:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- You're fine Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:43:58 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- I had one too livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:59:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:22:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:25:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Bravo! I knew you could do it, Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:19:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JS -:- Re: I hope I can help you Livia -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 08:50:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Have you posted here before? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- to all of you -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:38 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- So whatcha got to add to that??t?? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:15:40 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- i'm winging this part -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:01:03 (EST)
__ Ulf -:- LOL... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:13:48 (EST)

Friendly Z -:- Really Helping Ourselves Practically -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:06:39 (EST)
__ Good intentions... -:- ...pave the road to hell. -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:51:50 (EST)
__ __ a fly on the wall -:- Why must the alternative to Rawatism -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:28 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Welcome Friendly Z (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:00:20 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- The ups and downs of chatroom -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:00:57 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Well said, Z -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:54:48 (EST)
__ __ salsa -:- OT-PATC read this -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:42:39 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Here it is, Silvia -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:57:49 (EST)

Joe -:- Light Reading/The 1976 Renaissance -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:14:31 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- I remember this brief era -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:49:47 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Gopi's Sharing and Relationships -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:46:15 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Gay Open Premies? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:36:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- True confessions -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:33:02 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: Gay Open Premies?hell yes -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:59:48 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Gay Open Premies? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:33:08 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Differences Between Countries -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:13:57 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: Differences Between Countries -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:37:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- That's Surprising -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:53:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: That's Surprising -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:00:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- National Coordinators -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:37:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: National Coordinators -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:58:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Padarthanand -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:35:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: Padarthanand -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:09:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami Sunshine Rainbow -:- Re: Padarthanand -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:23:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: Padarthanand -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:38:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: National Coordinators -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:02:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ North Shore Babe -:- Re: National Coordinators -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:20:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- LOL accuracy will get you nowhere NT -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:06:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- What a scaredy cat! -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:50:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, McDuck -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:37:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Quiet -:- Joe have you got all the old stuff? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:01:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, Quiet -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:22:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Quiet -:- Re: Sorry, Quiet -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:36:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Quiet, correct spelling............. -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:12:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Lots of lawyers can't write or spell........ -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:43:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Lots of lawyers can't write or spell........ -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:53:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Canadian Ashrams were administered by -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:42:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ ChrisP -:- Re: Canadian Ashrams were administered by -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:39:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Bai nary Code Ji -:- Chris Pee -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:38:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Nothing stopped the train we were on! -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:57:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller to Gail: about -:- Jennifer, Debbie Mac, Stuart McDougal -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:43:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ChrisP -:- Re: Jennifer, Debbie Mac, Stuart McDougal -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:50:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can answer some of those -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:26:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Response to Jim's question -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:16:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- UK 1976 -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:37:41 (EST)
__ Richard -:- re: The 1976 Renaissance -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:17:37 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Damn -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:21:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: Damn -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:56:26 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- another quote -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:41:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Mitchkoffs, Andersens, Weasles et al -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:19:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Love you, mum -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:52:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- Love you, too -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:12:02 (EST)


Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:03:07 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Quiet!
Subject: Re: Yes, you're entitled
Message:
Well Quiet, just as long as you're not a suppository, that's OK with me.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:24:47 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: ED
Subject: OOOPS, Sorry
Message:
Nobody else was chatting with you and I chimed in out of turn I guess. I think Gerry said there were better places to discuss this topic. I dunno. I barely post here.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:59:04 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: shut up, u both
Message:
What is wrong with u 2? New, eh? But you want to come as a guest of our forum and criticize it...

Go to Lard's website and talk a little there: NOBODY CAN ANSWER YOU, YOU FOOLS.

If you don't get it you can stop posting stupidity. Nobody is attacked here personally, if that is you guys doing it to us.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 06:39:52 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Ok
Message:
It's true, I didn't read all your posts, maybe people were attacking you but now, to begin a 'thing' with Ed about censorship is not fair. You don't know people here, you are new, you don't understand many 'technical' parts of this forum. It may seem to you that the posts were deleted because they were censored? That is not why. Sometimes, is not convinient to explain all -why help the enemy, if you know what I mean- and Gerry changed his mind because to begin with. That is what I know, or what it appears to be, my conclussion following what happened after.

I had problems communicating when I began to write in this forum (english is my second language) and particularly Gerry in those days accussed me of beeing a troll, and that is a premie pretending to be an ex. Just relax, and be sincere and get to know the forum. There are no bad people, all are very nice, including Jim who many misunderstand, IMO.

When did you became an ex?

Take care,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:28:51 (EST)
From: Calling Gerry
Email: None
To: Me again
Subject: Time for another deletion?
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:05:55 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: Re: Time for another deletion?
Message:
Ed, please read the posts of people like Bai Ji, Housemum, Dermot, Kerry, Brian Smith, Janet and others too numerous to mention. These people are trying in a heartfelt, sincere (and often humorous) manner to analyse, question and understand what for many of them is a 30 year way of seeing the world and themselves. To call them 'still brainwashed' and 'in need of professional help' is facile and insulting.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but your gratuitous rudeness makes me wonder whether it is in fact you who may need the professional help.

Regards, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:27:09 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Thank you, Livia. Well said! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:06:16 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Ed
Subject: This thread reminds me...
Message:
...of a joke.

Sad looking guy walks up to the bar. 'What's the problem?' asks the bartender.

'I'm lonely. I have an IQ of 180 and I can't find a comparably intelligent woman to talk to.'

'What an amazing coincidence!' exclaims the barkeep. 'See that woman over there. A few minutes ago, she walked up with exactly the same problem.'

So the two of them visited for hours talking about rocket science.

Another guy walks up. Same kind of deal, only he has an IQ of 120. He gets set up with a woman in a business suit and they discuss the stock market and financial goals.

Next guy walks up. He has an IQ of 80. Barkeep sets him up with a rather dull-looking woman in the corner.

'So,' the guy asks her, 'what cult are you in?'

ba dump bump

That's it for tonight. I'm tired and barely have enough energy left to sing Arti and meditate b4 turning in.

Nighty, nighty and twameva mata...

Anandaji, IQ oscillates between 75-85

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:18:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Email Address for TIM GALLWEY?
Message:
Does anyone have an email address for Tim Gallwey? I have written a fairly negative expose about what he had to say in the Passages video, now that it's been transcribed, but I wanted to give him the opportunity to comment on it first, perhaps to say he was taken out of context, etc., or otherwise to explain what appears on it's face to be major, insulting, untruths.

Does anyone know how I can reach him?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:25:45 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: tg@theinnergame.com
Message:
www.theinnergame.com
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:57:25 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Thank you
Message:
I'll see if I can get some response from him.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:44:13 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Funny,
Message:
neither Mr Gallwey nor Dr Valerio Pascotto - www.eos.org/about.html - mention Mr Rawat in their CVs
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:51:33 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Yes it is, isn't it????
Message:
In Passages, Gallwey professes, with hand motions that verge on the hyperactive, that Maharaji and knowledge are the very most important element of his life, and that Maharaji has done something -- introduce people to their 'heart' -- which has never been done in the history of the world. I kid you not, this is literally what he says. It's never been done before.

He also said, with a straight face no less, that Maharaji has accomplished what he promised he would do. Yes, mission accomplished.

He has made 'knowledge of the heart' available to 'every person on the planet,' that 'every person on the planet' now has access to receiving knowledge. I thought that was interesting, considering that off the top of my head, I can think of China (with 20% of the world's population)and almost the entire Arab world, where Maharaji has never placed even one lotus foot, and there are virtually no premies. Since Maharaji does not advertise his existence, nor that of knowledge at all and you would have to personally know a premie even to know he or knowledge exist, how someone would have access to knowledge in those places apparently only Tim Gallwey knows.

But regardless of the truth of any of that, you would think he might mention something about that on his website, wouldn't you, I mean if he wasn't just saying that for propaganda among the premies and never expected anyone else to see it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:14:53 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, you would
Message:
expect to see it on his website, but if the mission is already accomplished, why bother?

This is not the first time this sort of sophistry has been aired. Back in the 70s, when the valid question was asked, 'When will GMJ bring peace to the world?', it was suggested the response be, 'He already has because there are people with peace in their lives.' I think the idea was floated by Bob Mishler, but I'm not entirely sure.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:12:30 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, you would
Message:
expect to see it on his website, but if the mission is already accomplished, why bother?

This is not the first time this sort of sophistry has been aired. Back in the 70s, when the valid question was asked, 'When will GMJ bring peace to the world?', it was suggested the response be, 'He already has because there are people with peace in their lives.' I think the idea was floated by Bob Mishler, but I'm not entirely sure.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:23:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Declare victory and give up
Message:
That seems to be the philosophy these days. There is just this pronouncement by Maharaji, Gallwey, Whittaker and others that [_____] (fill in the blank) has been accomplished, and that was M's mission all along. But even the revisionist 'mission' Gallwey is talking about can only be said to have been accomplished if you shut off part of your brain and refrain from thinking about it for more than a few seconds.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:43:26 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Declare victory and give up
Message:
'But even the revisionist 'mission' Gallwey is talking about can only be said to have been accomplished if you shut off part of your brain and refrain from thinking about it for more than a few seconds.'

Well that is the premie way of handling things.
The premies are just an untogether version of Jehovas Witnesses.
I bet m is envious of Watchtower. All the JW elders have to do is write their revisionism in the next Watchtower and..abra cadabra all the JWs believe it.
Do you know how many times the JWs have postponed the end of the world?
Can you refer me to ONE premie who has 'realised knowledge'?,,,just one please.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:39:56 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Quiet!
Subject: Re: A sujestion
Message:
Whilst not wanting to be unnecessarily prescriptive about the OT content of tis forum, I have noticed, Quiet, that every time you post here, thread after thread becomes bogged down with endless trivia.

You may not be aware of this, although you ought to be by now - this forum is primarily for people who were once genuine premies and have questioned or are now in the process of questioning the beliefs we inculcated along with the Knowledge. It is a lifebelt for many people including myself.

You, however, seem to see it as a place where you can come and irk people with OT remarks whenever you see fit.

Who are you anyway? Have you ever taken the time to tell us your story; how you came to K, what caused you to begin to doubt, if, indeed you do doubt? Most people I read on here have seen the necessity at some point to tell their story as honestly as they can. This was what I felt was required when I first came here. I left a little post and everyone immediately asked who I was, so I told them, HONESTLY. I don't feel you have done this, Quiet. Why not? Why do you have this need to come here and basically waste everyone's precious time? Do you really think anyone here can be bothered with your generally pointless and irrelevant interjections?

This is a place, Quiet, where I come to look for intelligent, meaningful, thought-provoking debate as we all attempt to deconstruct what for some of us is 30 years of a way of looking at the world and our lives. You, however, appear to come here merely to draw attention to yourself with endless trivia that you sometimes express with a slightly sinister tone completely out of tune with the general mood of this forum.

I think now is the time you come completely clean, Quiet. Tell us your history, then add something meaningful or heartfelt to this forum. Oh and by the way, if you don't answer this with your genuine story, then I think we will all know what we need to know about you anyway.

Regards, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:00:20 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Thanks Livia...
Message:
If I had gotten down here and read your eloquent post, I would have had no need to write what I did above.

I know that we are all in different 'Grades/Levels' of ex-trication but I currently agree with all you have written.

Hijacking of my life support machine, by OT pedantics is 'Noying'

I have been supported by your postings todate through this awful time.

Love Bai JI XXXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:15:25 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: liviadowte@hotmail.com
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Calling Bai Ji
Message:
Dear Bai Ji, Thanks. I've just read your post at the top and was thinking how well and lovingly you had written it, unlike my somewhat aggressive ripostes to Ed and Quiet. (I can't seem to help getting annoyed - the time-wasting factor of all this nonsense really irritates me!) Your posts over the last few days have moved me deeply. Judging by the time of day of your posts today, I'm wondering if we're in the same part of the world? Perhaps we could talk on the phone? We may even know each other. Please email me!

With love, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:35:09 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Livia
Subject: Calling Bai Ji and Livia
Message:
Well said both of you. These people are not just ''pedantic'' and argumentative. They are mischief makers probably. Since you guys have been here there has not been a troll attack. This may be the beginning of one. Most of them are designed to disrupt the forum with endless idiotic arguments. The best thing to do is to ignore them.

I'll explain more by email Bai Ji and Livia you're welcome to email me too any time you want.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:17:07 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Why would anyone take you seriously, Quiet?
Message:
As I said to you in a post below:

Quiet, correct spelling is a courtesy extended to other adults in a civilized society. Why should anyone bother to read subliterate rubbish let alone take it seriously and respond to it? Please take some classes in English and then you may find people will react to you more respectfully.

How you ever think you will be a lawyer with your shallow grasp of the language is beyond me. Or do you intend to practice law in the Amazon or Melanesia where there is no written language?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:36:39 (EST)
From: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Special Update
Message:
national email: january 2002

SPECIAL UPDATE

Friday February 8th 8.00 pm

John McClean (UK National Contact) and Yorum Weiss are planning a series of conference calls throughout Europe to give an update about recent developments and changes, as well as plans for the future, and opportunities to participate.

The UK and Ireland call is scheduled for Friday February 8th at 8.00 pm.

The aim is for as many people as possible to hear this update through a local conference call.

The focus of these calls will be on the two primary opportunities of propagation and resources; and to see how we can focus and strengthen our efforts to support Maharaji's fresh appoach. Information will also be given about the changes that are taking place.

The conference calls will be transmitted to local hall venues. Some private calls have also been arranged for convenience. Details of hall venues only to follow by email shortly.

For further information about attending a conference call event in your area, please get in touch with your local Elan Vital area contact. Or you can send an email to: info@elanvital.org.uk
========================================

Will be interesting what 'spin' is provided on 'Maharaji's fresh appoach'. Presumably 'resources' mean 'donations'?

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:12:30 (EST)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Subject: Hey, they stole that from me!!
Message:
OK, I'm not bragging, or even saying 'I told you so', but isn't it amazing how this latest announcement from EV echoes what I posted just a day or two ago?

1)there are now 'Opportunities to Participate'....

(that's right, always frame it as an 'opportunity' for the poor premie....never the truth, which would be something closer to 'help, the gurus got his tit cought in a wringer, and we need your money, right now'.....or Hansi doesn't like his Aston Martin, or Monica needs a new wardrobe...no, none of that, let's call it an opportunity..)

2)The 'Opportunity of Propagation and Resources'....

(Once again, another 'opportuntiy' for the poor premie, this time to help out with propagation (please tell me why having a great life and being happy with the knowledge of all knowledges isn't the best advertisement for knowledge...didn't m always say that the premies are his billboards?....Why does he always need more money?....How about one happy premie radiating 'that experience', and telling their friends, and the friend getting that new 'auto knowledge'?....could it be that there are no 'happy premies', having 'that experience'?

And 'Resources'.....isn't that just another name for 'MONEY'?

3)And now the poor premie can learn how to 'Focus and strengthen our efforts to support maharaji's FRESH approach'...

(My god, if they haven't figured it out yet, after 30 years, how to do it, when will they?...or could it be that the captain of the ship doesn't have a clue on how to get out of this mess he's created, and the ship is going round and round in circles, like a dog chasing it's own tail?)

(And of course, it's always new and 'fresh', and always your 'opportunity'....)

I love it...LOL...

Do you ralize how much we would have to pay to get these kind of laughs in other ways...movies, comedy clubs etc....quite a savings here.....I just wish it weren't so sad sometimes....

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:15:35 (EST)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Of course, Yorum's in the picture too..nt
Message:
aa
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:07:41 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Email: None
To: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Subject: Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$
Message:
a slightly different spin each time; usually a story about how Maha boy loves us or is patient despite being held back from us-but opportunity=money to the collector-always cloaked in 'Rejoice, Rejoice for HE's going to let us write a check out to HIM or HIS cult organization
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 04:16:45 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Subject: Re: Yorum Wei$$ only comes for $$$
Message:
Thanks for your post MoM,

It took me an hour to read through the above troll crap before I got here to your post.

I have been privvy to decades of this inner sanctum stuff.

The Next Big Thing. Here we go again, shit it's kept us titillated for years.

I so welcome the 'Cold Hard Facts' when it comes to all of this.
As it allows me to push through my 'Gopi' conditioning and exercise a little used muscle called discrimination/integrity/Common Fucking Sense.

The things I've seen.....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:53:33 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Subject: Re: Special Update
Message:
The line 'to see how we can focus and strengthen our efforts to support' has gone beyond annoying, for me. This same old civilized-call-for-service line has long ago turned into a politically correct way of saying 'how much tighter can we still wring this cloth?' Hello out there, any drops left?

'Presumably resources means donations? - Actually 'support' means donations. 'Resources' currently means (yes) more 'videos, tapes, publications by which y'all can enjoy the Speaker's message (in case you've forgotten what the message is already)'

sigh,

ChrisP (how the cult has toasted me)

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:01:49 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: Warm Welcome CP.. You are Welcome (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 15:44:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Warm Welcome CP.. love your sense of humor [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:10:20 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: the cult has toasted you?
Message:
the cult has toasted you?

What a title for an autobiography!

- 'My life as a Pop-tart'

(no offense intended, Chris P, honest).

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:51:50 (EST)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: the cult has toasted you?
Message:
My dear C.Q. it is quite clear you and your fellow forum postees ( or shall I say ' Post Toasties' )have stopped postating yourselves before the golden bunion feet of the living master . You obviously are video deprived and need to gain clarity so you can give more money as well as precious time and effort.A Urine Wiess presentation is probably all you need to get you on track. All the best..............
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 12:28:14 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: lol, Eric. As it happens ...
Message:
just last week I received a compilation of vids that Kelly has kindly put together.

Sat through the Atlanta 2000 training vid. last weekend. What a mess! almost complete lack of continuity ... muddled half-arsed attempts at profundity, and non-sequitur after non-sequitur. If the Goo calls that training, all his trainers must be in a permanent state of bewilderment as to what he wants them to think and do. Ah well ...plus ça change, as they say.

This weekend - the revisionism of 'Passages'. (or as somebody has renamed it 'Back Passages'. Well, I'll be a horse's ass)

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:35:33 (EST)
From: Eric
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: lol, C.Q. As it happens ...
Message:
This is now an old thread but I'm gonna try to get a little more mileage out of it. C.Q. , you've got a lot of patience and fortitude to watch all those videos Kelly sent you.But for the huge lightbulb going off in my head after seeing M. in Wash. D.C. I would have been at that sorry, abuse session A.K.A> 'the Atlanta Toilet Training.My wife and I turned to each other after hearing M. talk in D.C. and simultaneously knew nothing of value had been uddered by the unholy one. That was the the final DRIP. Then there was the profound knowledge review via sacred VIDEO as M. stepped out for Marlboro. OY VAI!!! Batman!!! sp.?I think I'll go have an English muffin and a cup of good joe for now. Have a nice day..........................
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:57:44 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Oy vey already Batman, already? LOL! (nt)
Message:
Oy vey already Batman, already? LOL! (nt)
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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:15:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Eric
Subject: Final drip stories. Thanks Eric
Message:
I just love reading about when the light bulb suddenly became illuminated. :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:42:52 (EST)
From: ChrisP (the other Chris)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: LOL :)
Message:
toasted me totally - my crispy crumbs have had, heard and seen quite enough, thank you, but I'm still laughing from your joke below - good one cq!

ChrisP, I skipped out of schizoid school

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:06:44 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Subject: M's *'FRESH'* approach ???
Message:
Fresh approach? Tell it to Monica.

((((((((((( ring-g-g-g-g )))))))))))

***pick up***

'Hello?'

'Hi, honey, this is Daddy.... is your Mommy near the phone?'

'No, Daddy, she's upstairs in the bedroom with Uncle PremPal,'

After a brief pause Daddy says 'But you haven't got an Uncle PremPal, honey!'

'Oh yes I do, and he's upstairs in the bedroom with Mommy right now!'

'Uh, okay, then......here's what I want you do. Put down the phone, run upstairs and knock on the bedroom door and shout to Mommy and Uncle PremPal that Daddy's car's just pulled up outside the house.'

'Okay, Daddy!'

A few minutes later the little girl comes back to the phone. 'Well, I did what you said, Daddy.'

'And what happened?' he asks.

'Well, Mommy got all scared, jumped out of bed with no clothes on and ran around screaming, then she tripped over the rug and went flying out the front window and now she's all dead.'

'Oh my God!!!!! And what about your Uncle PremPal?'

'He jumped out of bed with no clothes on too and he was all scared and he jumped out the back window into the swimming pool.....but he must have forgot that last week you took out all the water to clean it, so he hit the bottom of the swimming pool and now he's all real dead too.'

***long pause***

Then Daddy says, 'Swimming pool? Is this 555-7039?'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:54:30 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: All
Subject: February Scheduled Satellite etc.
Message:
Subj: February 2002 Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events
Date: 1/30/2002 11:00:47 AM Eastern Standard Time

February 2002
Scheduled Satellite Broadcasts & Events

Saturday 2 th
MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive

·    Vision's Sale from 12:00 a.m to 5:00 p.m

Sunday 3 th
MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive

·    Vision's Sale from 12:00 a.m to 5:00 p.m

At 8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast:

·    Capture the Day'
Taken from an event in Miami Beach, USA .  Duration: 46 minutes

Sunday 10 th
MBWC: 2401 Pine Tree Drive
8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast:

      Maharaji in San Francisco, USA – Nov. 23, 2001
One in a series of local events to which Maharaji was invited to speak.
Duration:  52 minutes

Sunday 17th
Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami.

6:00 pm: Preparing for Knowledge Event: This event is for people preparing
to receive the techniques of Knowledge. People who have already received
Knowledge are also welcome to attend.

8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast:

·    Maharaji in Alexandria, USA - June 18, 2000
From a talk Maharaji gave in Alexandria, Virginia on the morning of June 18,
2000.
Duration: 58 minutes

Sunday 24 th
Intercontinental Hotel, 100 Chopin Plaza, Downtown Miami.
6:00 pm: Introductory Event
8:00 pm: Satellite Broadcast:

Maharaji in San Diego, USA - Nov. 24, 2001
Another program in the series of local events to which Maharaji was invited
to speak.
Duration: 55 minutes

BROADCASTS EASILY ACCESSIBLE
Anyone who subscribes to DISH can access the broadcasts. Just give them the
time and channel number, and tell them to tune in.  That's it. There is no
need to contact Visions in order to view the broadcasts. The broadcasts are
generally on Channel 9602 and occasionally on 9601.  Consult the DISH
on-screen programming guide.

Broadcast schedules are also posted on the Visions web site at
www.visionsinternational.org

SPONSORSHIP
These broadcasts are supported by  the Visions broadcasts and materials
sponsorship program (regular monthly donations) as well as through special
contributions.  Sponsorship is available at any level to anyone who wishes
to support the work of providing broadcasts and materials conveying Maharaji
’s message to people all around the world.
For  information,  please call the toll free sponsorship line at
1-888-610-0500.  Your support is greatly appreciated.

If you would like to purchase a copy of a broadcast, contact the Visions
order department: 805-496-4777 x 1.

To confirm information on video events, call:
(305) 270-4768 English
(305) 270-4770 Spanish

For recorded information about events that Maharaji will be attending:
(818) 889-0500 English
(818) 889-1717 Spanish

For those interested in finding out more about Maharaji and Knowledge:
(818) 879-1500 English

National Mail Order Library Phone #:
(800) 603-0319

Other resources available:
http://www.maharaji.net

To order video and audiocassettes or satellite transmissions, contact:
Visions International at: (805) 496-4777
or visit their Website:
http://www.visionsinternational.org

If you would like to be removed from this list or update your e-mail
address, phone number or address, please send the information to:

Thank you very much

         Info Miami
Miami Communications Team

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:29:33 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Recalls a Garage at Raja Ji's
Message:
Seeing the Visions sale in Miami reminds of a PWK-only garage sale held at Raja Ji and Claudia's house on Miami Beach mid-80's. We picked up some custom made heart-shaped jewelry boxes for a few dollars. Someone surely must have put hours and hours into making for their lord only to have it sold off. Still have some nice vases, too. A friend bought one of M's $2000 Bijan suits for maybe $50. He said later he wore it through darshan and M obviously spotted the suit. I picked up one of M's Panama hats he wore around Kissimmee time. It was my prized divine artifact until a rather heavy houseguest sat on it. Ah, such lila - or was it grace? Damn, that hat could have been my retirement fund if I'd been able to sell it to the Museum of the Lord of the Universe.
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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 22:09:27 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Recalls a Garage at Raja Ji's
Message:
Once I bought 3 little dolls from M's daughters, and an old chair. I also have a lamp that belong to them that a premie gave me a long time ago. I lost the chair, I still have the dolls, I don't know what to do with the lamp.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 09:53:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M's favor to women
Message:
Here is the full quote:

+++++++++++

In ‘Divine Light’ – Guru Puja Special
Printed and published by Shri Hans Publications,
80 Mildmay Park, London N1, tel: 01-254 2616

Excerpt from
He Created Everything
Satsang and answers from Shri Guru Maharaj Ji, Johannesburg, 3rd may, 1972
(page 202-217)

Page 213

………..

Q: Guru Maharaj Ji, have there ever been any women Perfect Master?

M: Very good question, but I don’t understand it because you are limiting Masters in their bodies.

Q: It’s just that all the famous Perfect Masters have always been men.

M: What do you mean “a famous Perfect Master”? You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women more, he comes through a woman but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it. But people do get proud – they take the Rolls and put in on a turn-table, on a glass piece, and stand and looks at it. “Oh, I’ve got a Rolls,” and never drive it. After some time it becomes junk and it is finished.

………….

Should all this drivel be on EPO?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:11:46 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yep
Message:
Not that long ago, Maharaji referred to the next perfect master as 'him' then qualified it with 'or her'. So which is it? Revisionism again or just winging it as he always has but we thought is was coming straight from the lord incarnate's mouth? I vote for posting on EPO, maybe under the heading "Dribble".
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:36:47 (EST)
From: Or Call It
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: 'Drool From The Master's Mouth' (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:38:06 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Or Call It
Subject: Well, if, as Anth is always telling us -
Message:
Well, if, as Anth is always telling us - 'God is snot', I guess that would give J-M's definition of 'drivel' a bit of credibility.

Personally, I think his command of English is pretty good - for a Frenchman. But surely he doesn't have access to the BIG Oxford English Dictionary (the 23 volume one) does he? I think he means 'driveller'.

q.v.

drivel, n.2 Also 5 drevel, 5­6 drivil, 6­7 drivell. _. 4­5 dravel.
[f. drivel v.]

1. Spittle flowing from the mouth; slaver, dribblings. Now rare.
?c1325 Old Age ii. in Relig. Ant. II. 210 Moch me anueth, That my drivil druith.
1388 Wyclif 1 Sam. xxi. 13 His drauelis [gloss that is, spotelis] flowiden doun.
14.. Voc. in Wr.-Wülcker 599 Orexis, drevel.
1570 Levins Manip. 125/43 Ye Driuil at nose, pus.
1586 Warner Alb. Eng. iv. xx. (R.) He..clear’d the driuell from his beard.
1697 Phil. Trans. XX. 50 The Snivel or Drivel that comes from the Mouth of a Dog..when mad.
1789 M. Madan Persius (1795) 54 note, The child..wet with drivel from the mouth.
transf.
1780 J. T. Dillon Trav. Spain (1781) 211 Chequered with small hollow round grains..which I conceive are formed by bubbles of air..forming the drivel of the metal. [Cf. drive v. 26 c.]

2. Idiotic utterance; silly nonsense; twaddle.
1852 Blackie Study Lang. 2 As it begins with dreams, so it must end in drivel.
1860 W. Collins Wom. White iii. 474 The most abject drivel that has ever degraded paper.
1884 J. Sharman Hist. Swearing i. 21 We may have thought..his words the drivel of idiotcy.

3. Comb., as drivel-bib, a child’s bib to intercept the drivelling.
1831 Carlyle Sart. Res. i. xi. (1872) 52 Did he, at one time, wear drivel-bibs, and live on spoon-meat?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:49:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: In the drivels' repository
Message:
What's the EV-DLM Papers beside a drivels' repository anyway?
[ M's favour to women ]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:59:49 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Please read your mail nt
Message:
n
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:11:03 (EST)
From: 210
Email: None
To: All
Subject: rawat's cult
Message:
Not that anybody here is still wondering
---
hopefully
---
if rawat is a cult leader, but there exists no more certain proof of that fact than hiw own website. When a devotee clicks on his/her 1 or 2 or 3 minute ''hit'' of rawat, ''quotes'' appear on the screen and grow bigger, presumably to really stick in the eyes, then fade all the while pitiful wallpaper music is being fed into the ears. The truly telling thing about the ''quotes'' is that they say absolutely nothing. ''Life is life. Peace is peace. Love is love.'' Now, there is a revelation, to be sure. There is page after page of this stuff that says nothing. It's unbelievable. That his devotees will sit through this garbage and accept it all as apparently important new stuff and not even look at what is actually on the screen and think, ''What the hell is this guy playing at?'', astonishes me. Rawat himself has proved that his is nothing more than one more mind cult.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:05:03 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: 210
Subject: 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue
Message:

'without kindness
without love
without understanding
logic is worthless'

Cultspeak if ever I heard it.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 03:11:02 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: 'logic is worthless' ?
Message:
but this is the guy who worships macintosh computers....
gee--where's the love and kindness circuit on that logic board? maybe the power manager? the p-ram? could it be built into the CPU? the ROM?
i'll have to write to steve Jobs and find out.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:08:03 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: 'logic is worthless' says the Goo - rue
Message:
Sage advice but what exactly does this have to do with Maharaji, Elan Vital or knowledge? I haven't seen kindness, love, understanding or logic coming forth.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: All
Subject: OTS's post from below inserted here
Message:
I hope this isn't forbidden but this post from OTS is about to disappear and thought others should see it. So I cut and am pasting it here.

Gregg: I don’t think even THE PREMIES know the bizarre history of the Denver Residence let alone the new occupants and what went on there back in the early 70’s.

Once M had us invite the neighbors over for a tea one afternoon to have the introduced to him and his mission while he was out of town. The movie “Satguru Has Come” was shown in the rec room along with tea and cookies, and I remember a few of the pretty blonde teenage girls in the group of 10 or so neighbors crying during the before and after satsang when they realized that they were living across the street from the real living Lord of the Universe. It came as quite a shock to them, I’m sure.

Or the time M had a near anger meltdown when he returned from his travels and found that someone had removed from his living room wall the black and blue PLUSH VELOUR VELVET artist rendition of “The Last Supper” which he had purchased that past Spring at a local gas station (sitting right there next to the plush Elvis renditions). Bob Mishler had ordered the “artwork” removed from the wall of the residence and placed in storage. The entire world came to a standstill as the artwork was located and returned from the warehouse immediately.

Or the time that M was taken sick with an ulcer, but misdiagnosed by Dr. John as some kind of liver aliment. He canceled his tour. He was in so much pain that he sort of zoned out of this world. A United Airlines stewardess (M. Johnson) was brought in to serve him meals. We could not understand who this person was and why she was brought in for this purpose. We learned later that they were an item an they later married. He was hospitalized for a couple of nights and we brought him home from the hospital in the Mercedes and he was as good a new. He stopped eating red chilies and the pain went away.

Or the time M and his mother Mataji got into a playful snowball fight on the front lawn. She in her white sari, he in a black suit and brown boots. Nice picture.

Or the hours I spent going over the intricacies of a pinball machine with M and revealing its secrets to him (shaking).

Or the time I dropped a five gallon bottle of water on the kitchen floor one evening after dinner. “Mop on aisle 5!”

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:22:59 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: denver residence
Message:
you say you have stories to tell, so let's hear em. we got versions of some of them out in the boonies, but if you have firsthand accounts to relate, so much the better to correct the record.
you mention something about the denver residence and 'new occupants'. so? who are they? how did it happen? i lived in denver for 10 straight years and never got this gem.

out in new york, where dr john horton and Ron Colleta lived, we got a differesnt version of the ulcer story. Ron told everyone that during his tour across the north border (Boston, New York City, Detroit, Chicago) maharaji got sicker and sicker and finally had to cancel the rest of his tour so they could rush him to an emergency room for the pain in his gut.

To hear Ron tell it, he said he was by maharaji's side the whole time, and that he watched Maharaji go into a coma for a while. When MJ came out of it, he was 'in another place'. He Motioned Ron over to his bedside and told him that 'he had been taken to a planet in a higher dimension where all the past Perfect Masters abided, in Eternity, and all they did was have Satsang, forever, with each other. He said he could have stayed there for the rest of Time, but they all told him he had to come back, that his work wasn't finished on earth. He didn't want to leave, but the told him he had to go.

Then he found that when he tried, he couldn't find the way back. The Universe was too vast, and earth was so tiny, he got lost. And just when he reached the point of despair, this Goddess came to him out there in the cosmos, and rescued him. When he asked who she was and why she had saved him, she told him she was the Goddes Durga, and that she was sent to find him and show him his way back to us, because sshe was supposed to marry him here and help him accomplish his work.'

Ron said Maharaji then looked up at him and began to weep, and Ron asked why he wept, and Maharaji told him 'How will I ever find her, Ron? I didn't know who she is! She didn't tell me how to find her! I opened my eyes, and here I was, back here in this bed, but she isn't here! Oh Ron, what am I going to do!?'

And /ron said this surprised him, because he remembered something he had heard Maharaji say to him the last time they were in Los Angeles, and Ron calmed him down and reminded him 'You've already met her, Maharaji. Don't you remember? We were at the ashram in L.A and you pointed out that one sister to me, and told me she was Durga, and that she was going to be your wife someday? You've told me about her before.'

Ron siad that at this, Maharaji got extremely agitated and grabed Ron's hand and shook him, and told him 'You must go and find her Ron, and bring her to me. I don't care what you have to do to get her here, just do it. I must see her at once. My whole mission depends on it!'

So Ron went out and tracked down Marolyn, and got the message to her to come at once, that Maharaji needed her immediately, and she dropped everything and rushed to get there.

mataji already knew about her, or guessed most of it, and was firmly against it, so Maharaji had to have someone rest Marolyn a secret apartment in L.A. where they could get together without Mataji knowing about it.
Marolyn said that she would go there and wait, and Maharaji would come, and in her words, 'He would take me away to someplace in the Universe, far away from this world, and he taught me. And when we would come back into our bodies, I was so overcome that I was afraid if I stated crying, I could never stop.'

so--whatcha got to add to that??

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:30:43 (EST)
From: Flashback
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You already met her before
Message:
MY VERSION: M saw Marolyn on an airplane when he was travelling commercially. He told premie next to him, while pointing towards the stewardess, 'I'm going to marry her one day.'
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:28:03 (EST)
From: Basic Truth
Email: None
To: Flashback
Subject: Real Version
Message:
Marolyn Johnson decided she wanted to be the bride of the living God, and worked her way from being a hippie/Southern California/airline stewardess, into the inner circle of said child God. She also worked it so she could be the stewardess on one of his flights.

One thing lead to another and Marolyn engaged in statutory rape under the laws of the state of California. Prem Pal, the living god, liked the, hmmm, worshipping, fawning, sexual attention, and decided to kill two birds with one stone. He could stop having to hide the fact that he was fucking a woman 9 years his senior as a 15-16 year old, and get rid of his mother and take over the mission at the same time. So, they stopped hiding the ongoing affair, such as it was, and got married, telling no one, including his mother. The premies only found out about it after it happened.

Marolyn got to be a living goddess, and the rest is history until both started fucking other people, mostly premies, and Maharaji took up with a long term mistress as well, Monica Lewis, which continues to this day, and Marolyn pulls an Eleanor Roosevelt/Jackie Kennedy and lives with it silently, as long as he doesn't flaunt it in front of her and the kids. Who knows what the kids think, probably they don't think very much.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 07:30:33 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Basic Truth
Subject: A few more missing pieces
Message:
Maryoln's supposed first encounter with M ......
Marolyn was a stewardess aka flight attendant to be politically correct in current terms. Anyway she was on a flight that M was on and he was playing with a ballpoint pen which he dropped. The pen rolled around and ended up resting right at his feet.

M made no attempt to pick up the pen, he just stared at her as she was sitting close by on one of those flight attendant seats facing the rows of passenger seats. She waited for him to pick it up and he just continued to look at her like go ahead and get that for me.

She got up approached M, leaned over and bent down to his feet to pick up the pen and what do you know, thats right folks, she got her first blast of darshan right there 15,000 feet in the air and the rest is history. Whoooooeeee baby,

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:50:07 (EST)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The Producers
Message:
One of my favourite films is Mel Brooke's 'The Producers'
about an unsavoury theatrical agent, Max Byalistok (spelling?) (ZeroMostel) conning a very naive auditor, Leo Bloom (Gene Wilder) with his fanciful stories in order to get him to fiddle Byalistok's books for the tax man.

Reading about Ron Colleta's account of M's trip to the planet of the perfect masters and meeting with Durga on the way back -
reminded me of of the Byalistok/Bloom relationship.
Unsavoury conman and naive assistant, there you have it -
'Max' Rawat and 'Leo' Colleta (and all the others, inc myself, who believed this horsecrap)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 14:18:57 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Dave Punshon
Subject: ***FUNNIEST OF FORUM*****
Message:
Hi Dave,
I too love 'The Producers' and most of what Gene Wilder has done (especially with Richard Prior ). In fact I can imagine M in the guise of Gene saying ''You must go and find her Ron, and bring her to me. I don't care what you have to do to get her here, just do it. I must see her at once. My whole mission depends on it!'
Janet's post is really the funniest thing I have read in ages....
'To hear Ron tell it, he said he was by maharaji's side the whole time, and that he watched Maharaji go into a coma for a while. When MJ came out of it, he was 'in another place'. He Motioned Ron over to his bedside and told him that 'he had been taken to a planet in a higher dimension where all the past Perfect Masters abided, in Eternity, and all they did was have Satsang, forever, with each other. He said he could have stayed there for the rest of Time, but they all told him he had to come back, that his work wasn't finished on earth. He didn't want to leave, but the told him he had to go.

Then he found that when he tried, he couldn't find the way back. The Universe was too vast, and earth was so tiny, he got lost. And just when he reached the point of despair, this Goddess came to him out there in the cosmos, and rescued him. When he asked who she was and why she had saved him, she told him she was the Goddes Durga, and that she was sent to find him and show him his way back to us, because sshe was supposed to marry him here and help him accomplish his work.
...
Ron said Maharaji then looked up at him and began to weep, and Ron asked why he wept, and Maharaji told him 'How will I ever find her, Ron? I didn't know who she is! She didn't tell me how to find her! I opened my eyes, and here I was, back here in this bed, but she isn't here! Oh Ron, what am I going to do!?'

And /ron said this surprised him, because he remembered something he had heard Maharaji say to him the last time they were in Los Angeles, and Ron calmed him down and reminded him 'You've already met her, Maharaji. Don't you remember?'

It speaks for itself :)
Been a bit busy lately with car crashes and such but one of these days Dave I hope that we will have that drink .
berni

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:59:44 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: M urban legend # 29
Message:
It's funny how after all of these years this stuff gets recycled, the version I heard was that M was in the back seat of one of his mercedes being driven somewhere when he had this comatose out of body experience.

His driver is purported to have pulled over on the winding malibu highway and herorically given him mouth to mouth resisitation to revive him. I do not remember the ailment that brought the attack on, something to do with the ulcers and exhaustion I think.

M supposedly told the driver upon revival that he had just about decided to bag it in after 'going to where all perfect masters go in the afterlife.' Instead he chose to come back and selflessly serve mankind instead of hanging around in heaven with all of the other perfect masters.

No mention of durga ji in this urban legend bullshit story, that element adds a whole new twist to this tale.

I can't believe that once upon a time I sat with rapt attention listening to and believing this nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:09:14 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Hosting M's urban legends
Message:
This is too funny.

Maybe they deserve a special place in the 'best of forum' section ?

Anybody wanting to compile them ?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:10:58 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: M's Urban legend Ulcer cause
Message:
I actually heard this bandied about the community when M had his ulcer.

M being perfect and all there had to be a justifiable MYSTICAL reason for his coming down with an imperfect health condition at his age.

M WAS TAKING ON ALL OF THE BAD KARMA OF THE PREMIES AND HIS BODY FINALLY BROKE DOWN DUE TO THE STRESS CAUSED BY PROCESSING ALL OF OUR TRANSGRESSIONS AND SINS AND THUSLY HE SUFFERED THE ULCER INCIDENT.

Yeah folks it was all our fault, If we hadn't have been sooo bad, so rotten and evil the lord wouldn't have had that ulcer

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 20:34:01 (EST)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I hate to say this - but you're wrong
Message:
I heard it from someone who was with Maharaji at the time that Maharaji said that the reason why he had his ulcer was to save the world from nuclear war. He said that he had to have the ulcer to prevent a wordwide thermonuclear catastrophe.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 23:24:26 (EST)
From: someone who remembers
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: You're right Dave
Message:
He digested world catastrophy for us. How nice of him.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 21:41:52 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: God, they even revise the urban ledgends [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 00:01:59 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Lol Brian [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:01:47 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: M's Urban legends--speaking of which
Message:
Does anyone remember the time he told us he ate our karma when we kissed his feet (Kissimee, 1978 I think). He said that if he even spilled a drop of the karma it would be enough to kill that tree and he pointed to it. Good grief. It was to defend his father after we saw Dad hitting people on the head with his cane to alleviate their karma. What a crock!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:52:55 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: cause I've eaten to much sweets (nt)
Message:
kkk
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:57:51 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: denver residence
Message:
'He would take me away to someplace in the Universe, far away from this world, and he taught me. And when we would come back into our bodies, I was so overcome that I was afraid if I stated crying, I could never stop.'

So what on earth was going on here? Was Marolyn totally deluding herself? Or even lying? Please let's not have a rigid party line here that's just the complete converse of the party line we all had before. That first sentence above, PLEASE somebody give me an explanation!!! I'm saying this because once after darshan I had an experience that lasted for 3 days where I felt I had been taken to some place far away from this world, and I saw and felt stuff that I've never forgotten, that echoed all the things you read in mystical scriptures etc etc. It felt like I was being shown a glimpse of the meaning of everything, and when I read that thing that Marolyn said, it reminded me. And actually, I cried and cried and cried too when this thing happened to me, because it was so deep and incredible.

Having said that, it never happened to me again. This was in 1978. It definitely added to my faith, because it happened around M and it certainly wasn't autosuggestion, because I felt things I hadn't known before. In a way it changed me into a more relaxed, happy person, and made me quite certain from then on that there's something after death, and that's what's behind this whole universe is essentially benign. I can't describe it closer than that because it was absolutely beyond words.

I also know that you don't have to have anything to do with M to have an experience like this; but if M is a complete fraud, why did this happen?

In other words, I doubt Marolyn was lying at the time. Maybe that's kept a lot of us there for so many years - experiences of that kind that were undoubtedly real and profound, along with all the brainwashing and all the rest of it? I expect I'll get blown off the Forum now for having sacrilegious thoughts, but what am I supposed to do with these memories?

M has certainly messed up with the Jagdeo issue by not dealing with it, and the stuff I've read on EPO has caused me to realise that I was probably in a cult, and that things were going on that would have made me walk away years ago if I'd known about them, etc etc. But what am I supposed to do with these memories? Deny them like I denied the niggling doubts I had when I was a practising premie?

I find it all very confusing at times and any suggestions, clarifications would be most welcome. I have immense respect for everybody here - the honesty is stunning and such a welcome relief after years of brainwashed bullshit and autothink. But the danger of constructing an alternative reality that completely negates the one we had before, is that genuine experiences that for me were life-changing, get thrown out of the window without so much as a backward glance. What does anyone else think?

HELP!!!!

With love, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:40:26 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Closest I can come to an explanation
Message:
Livia,

I too have had a number of astounding 'transported to some other place' type of experiences. The three most notable ones were these:

Due to a foot injury, Dec '73', I was laid up in my room for about two weeks. Couldn't walk. Crawled to the bathroom, that sort of thing. With all the time in the world at my disposal, I did virtually non-stop meditation all day long, hour after hour. Once, I had a session that lasted around six hours. After doing all four techniques individually, I did them all simultaneously for the longest time. Near the end of it the walls were melting, shimmering, like heat waves in a desert. Without use of fingers, the entire room seemed extremely bright. My heart was exploding with joy, tears streaming down my face, the biggest smile I have ever felt was breaking across my face, and every breath was just so totally saturated with love that was so thick that it almost felt like a kind of liquid-like plasma washing over and over and over me. And this just went on and on and on. This was the single most powerful meditation experience of my life. Unfortunately for me, I was totally brainwashed into attributing EVERYTHING I experienced to M and, because of that I realize now that the depth and power of that experience took my connection to him to such an incredibly deep, deep subconscious level, that I became, for all intents and purposes, virtually immune to the possibility of exing for nearly three decades afterwards.

Then there was the time in Tucson, Arizona, in July '79 (I think) where, after darshan, I felt oblivious to the whole world as I walked dream-like, in very slow-motion, and I felt like I was in heaven, surrounded by angels, with harp-like and soft, faint flute music playing from every direction. That experience further immunized me from waking up from my 'sleep'.

Lastly, there was my last most astounding meditation session in March, '94 shortly after I resumed 'practicing' again after a 13-year dormancy. This time (hang on, now, don't shit bricks, remember, I was still completely and totally brainwashed) the dominant aspect of it was a super-incredible, an unbelievably intense love for M. Again, the tears, the plasma-thick love bursting thru my chest, automatically being (and not able to stop from being) rocked in every direction. Once, during the 'spaceout' year of '76, I manufactured some super-potent LSD from a pile of morning glory seeds, took it and experienced slightly stinging strychnine zings up and down my spine during a super-incredible acid trip that lasted 9 hours. Well, during this meditation, along with everything else that was happening, I also experienced zinging up and down my spine but it was totally pleasurable, bordering a bit on orgasm-like pleasure (if some of you who may have experience something like this will know what I mean). The thing that was different about this from the other two experiences was just this incredibly intense, liquid-like feeling of love. With each breath in and each breath out, I was being absolutely loved to death. Just incredible. Very hard to describe. Just incredible.

Anyway, the point here is that, this too, like the others, just cemented my belief that not only was K real, but so was M and that he was responsible for it. I KNOW NOW THAT HE MOST CERTAINLY, MOST DEFINITELY WAS NOT. I was so desperate for an explanation that I allowed myself to be brainwashed into believing that he was responsible BUT, I AM ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN NOW THAT HE WAS NOT.
Everything that happened to me in all these experiences was the result of my own sincere, fanatical efforts to connect with the divine.

If you can't realize this for yourselves, then, please, do yourself a favor and just take my word for it that the same is true for you and your experiences.

M NEVER had ANYTHING to do with it.

Peace to all!

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:54:02 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: That's It StevieJi, I'm going back!!!! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:37:37 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Whoa, tender heart, hang on a second
Message:
After I posted that I went outside to do some snow shoveling. I realized that if someone had told me to accept something on faith alone I would have said to them: organized religion already tried that on me and I didn't buy it so why should I listen to you? What, are you trying to set yourself up as some kind of guru yourself or something? I would have felt insulted intellectually and integrity-wise. My suggesting that someone just accept on the basis of faith alone that high achievement or attainment of higher experiences was not due to M bothered me a lot so, while shoveling snow outside, I gave it some serious thought. I asked myself the question: Why is it that humans feel such a need to attribute beautiful experiences to someone else, a supposedly higher being? What is it that makes it so hard for them to accept that they can achieve greatness, profound experiences, or whatever level of excellence that they seek WITHOUT the assistance of some human authority figure? The answer that came back to me is nothing more complicated than this: social conditioning. From an early age we are either overtly or at least subtly conditioned to believe that our parents, our teachers, in general, all persons in positions of authority have dominion over us, that we are supposed to listen to them and follow their orders or directions. M capitalized on that social conditioning to submit to authority. He did so so that he could manipulate us for his own selfish ends. For me, morally, what he has done to those unfortunates who submitted to him is no different than the innocent, unsuspecting WW2 Germans who submitted to Hitler. The power of both of them hinged on their followers not discovering, not realizing that the submission-to-authority game was just an evil device to enable them to gain power over their victims. This notion of social conditioning to submit to an authority figure is strong enough as it is for most people. For those born with Saturn in Capricorn, this conditioning is felt even stronger, is even more pronounced. A case in point: I worked with a beautiful, tall blond lady at a client site not too long ago. This lady was blessed with great beauty (a real knockout), a very pleasant personality, and many other God-given gifts. In short, she was a great 'catch' and could easily have had any man she wanted. But, because she was born with Saturn in Capricorn, she resisted the advances of men in her own age group and sought instead the companionship of a man 25 years her senior. Even though, due to their great age difference it was not practical for her to seriously consider marriage to him, nevertheless, she could not end their relationship. Her need to surround herself, to be allied with, to revere and be accepted by someone who represented a significant level of authority was so strong that the need for a father figure overshadowed her need for a mate her own age whom she could marry. This is how strong Saturn in Capricorn can exert itself. Also, Saturn in Capricorn very literally translates into: fear (Saturn) of failure or success (Capricorn). The challenge for those born with Saturn in Capricorn is to martial all available willpower to make a concerted and conscious effort to overcome this fear. All fear is irrational. It is merely that absence of courage, just as hate is merely the absence of love or darkness the absence of light. It can be overcome and it must be overcome if one is to have any chance at all of being free and happy. So, I hope this helps, sweet lady. If you leave us, I will miss you deeply. You have no idea how much your posts have already helped me. I read one of your posts this morning and it moved me so much that I can honestly say that I was 'stoned' all the way on my long drive to work.

One other thing, Bai Ji. About three weeks after I made the decision to ex, I suffered what I call horrible panic attacks (waves of paralyzing anxiety). My understanding now of what happened was this. For 29 years, I always had an easy, convenient way out, an easy answer for everything which was simply: M. Now, with M exposed for the fraud that he is, I no longer had this source of mental 'comfort' to fall back on. What worked for me, what got me thru a difficult two to three week period was simply replacing 'M' with 'God', the pure and perfect energy itself, not a supposed human embodiment of that energy. I was able to successfully bypass pseudo middleman M completely by praying to and giving my love to that pure energy itself. This may sound very strange to a lot of exes, but I have to say that it was only by prostrating to, loving, and praying to the formless energy called 'God' that I was able to get thru this very tough period. Eventually, as my emotional dependence on M disappeared completely, I became a free man again.

So, I hope this helps, dear sweet lady. I love you very much. I will miss you. XXX

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:04:57 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Tsokay, I was joking..check your mail (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:40:43 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Whew! There is a God, thank God
Message:
Dare I say . . . Lila? (Just kidding) That scare did serve a purpose though, din it? G'day, mate!
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:43:07 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Livia, I had these experiences too.....
Message:
along with many, if not all of us here.
I have no explanation for this, I can hypothesise, but i don't really know what they were.
Probably a confluence of several factors, not the least being that I truly believed I was in the Presence of GOD.

Who knows how that experiential belief can affect the psyche.

It's all still very confusing for me.
Love Bai XXX

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:59:16 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Livia
Subject: Re: mystical experience
Message:
I know what you mean, Livia. My belief about those experiences (I had 'em around M on occasion; I still do years after leaving.) is that they had infinitely more to do with my state of mind than with Prem Pal.

Whatever you choose to believe about the source of such experiences, one thing seems pretty clear - that there are ways to make such states more likely to occur. Meditating/praying at length, regularly, works. So does believing in a superior power and feeling grateful for the presence of that deity/energy/guru.

I think believing in the power of a guru is easier than believing in 'God' or Jesus or some other apparently distant deity. I mean, he's right in front of you, dressed in a fucking Krishna costume, for Christ's sake! How much more real can you get?

So, in a way, we were fortunate to be so gullible (I'm speaking for those of us who still succumb to the allure of small-e ecstasy). It may have opened some doors for us. Luckily, we didn't throw the God-given gift of reason out - at least not permanently - with the bathwater.

Despite the Krishna costume, we were clear-headed enough to at last realize that the Emperor, in fact, was buck-naked. Ecstasy is so much sweeter when tasted in the spirit of freedom instead of slavery.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:30 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Maharaji protects rapist Jagdeo
Message:
Do you know what happened with Abbi and Elan Vital/Maharaji? Do you know about their last contact?

The fact that Maharaji allowed Jagdeo to travel around the world (where is he now BTW?) even knowing there were complaints against Jagdeo is truly a shame. We are talking about somebody who abused children.

Amazing that Maharaji protected Jagdeo by not disclosing his hideout!

MAHARAJI SUCKS!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:09:27 (EST)
From: To Livia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: They were both horney for each other
Message:
It's as simple as that

Don't fret too much. And they were both immature. He more than her

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:15:55 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: To Livia
Subject: Re: They were both horney for each other
Message:
I was told a couple months ago, that they still are, that they are very physical with each other. Hard to imagine. But then again, now that we know hash has been found under his bed, it's not hard to imagaine how they flew the friendly skies.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:02:41 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Dear Livia
Message:
What you felt was real at the time. One person who posted here stated that Maharaji actually manifested in his room. Many unexplained things happened to us because we were open to the possibility. I have been blasted like that before too, and it feels great, but at what personal cost?

Have you ever noticed that your interest or search for something can be mirrored by the whole universe; suddenly, everyone seems to be talking about the same thing. We were looking for answers, feelings of ecstacy, and a deeper meaning to life and we got those things for a while. Wow, we got to meet and adore the Lord of the Universe (not many can boast that one!).

However, there are always holes in magical thinking. Sooner or later it all disappears. We are left worse for the wear (sort of like a lifetime heroine addiction--so good on the way up and so bad on the way down). As time goes on, it takes more and more (effort, drugs, whatever the addiction is) to experience less and less. You may never experience those highs again, but you may.

It might be difficult to ever believe in something that much again or want something that much again (this seems to be a necessary ingredient for these experiences). That all-out, no-holds barred willingness to jump in to Maharaji's river of maya allowed you to have that experience. Anyone who focuses on anything (athletics, other belief systems, inventions, etc.) is bound to have a profound experience. How can you help it? One-pointedness (fanatacism) leads to great things.

You have your whole life ahead of you. At least, your life belongs to you now. It will take time to sort things out, but it must feel good to realize you are standing on your own two feet. The masta isn't carrying you across the desert--he never was. When your walls finish crumbling, you may still have an interest in K or some other spiritual endeavour. On the other hand, you may turn your back on the concept of soul, immortality, god, etc. It will be your choice.

The centrifugal force of hitting the wall when you leave the Lard's Whirld of Knowledge ain't easy. As Maharaji said, 'What you don't know will hurt you [like when you find out I'm a fraud]. Be proud of yourself, Livia--a lot of our truth-seeking counterparts just can't face the truth. Here's lookin' at you, kid.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:43:58 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: You're fine Livia
Message:
Hello Livia,
I can't add much to what Brian and Janet have said to you.
I compeletetey understand the experiences you are talking about and had them all during my premie-years and like you, associated them completely with m and k.
The point is I still do have them but do not associate them to any belief system. They are just part of who I am.

Anyway whose to say that most people don't have the same experiences?

You sound really fine to me.

What is happening to you is what REALLY happens to premies that DO follow their OWN experiences. Not m's interpretation of what it should be.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:59:55 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: I had one too livia
Message:
I had one in my Knowledge session, and another the first time i walked withMaharji thru Heathrow airport in 1973. I can't reject those experiences, but i am real clear on how his direction in life and mine have diverged over time. I primed myself for those experiences, and he can't take them away from me, nor can anyone else.

In the 90's, i came into a period of a few years of extraordinary awareness and new experience that i never expected to hapen to me, involving channelling (which i had never wanted to do) and communion with beings above the material plane, and having opened myself to it for a while, and having later decided to close it down and try to get back to a more normal life, I can speculate that those voices maharaji said he heard after his father's death were probably of similar origin, and that perhaps the power that he felt come into him during the 'peace bomb' was actually a taking over, a passing into, by a vaster entity that actually WAS who he tried to tell us it was. It was no more him, prem pal singh rawat, than i was the guys I allowed to channel thru me when I was doing it.
But channelling can get tricky. ego creeps in. selfishness creeps in. people can get notions about being able to do it, and can lose the humility and sense of being a vessel that is so clear in the beginning. I myself went thru a phase of getting deluded and shaping grandiose plans out of it, that give me insight into what has happened to prem pal.

I think it has happened to him. There is nothing in the message of the original propagation that ever indicated money, cars, planes, yachts, watch collections, abusing humanity, concealing assetts, alcoholism, addiction or any of the glaring flaws that prem pal has used his peculiar experience to promulgate.
In fact, if the channel gets too swelled a head on them, the Bestowing Entity withdraws and denies the gift and leaves them to fake it--or be chastened and realize their mistake and return to the appropriate humility to serve the intentions first meant.

I can also say that once opened, it is really hard to try to turn away and act like it never happened.

I read the stories of other people who went thru something like this. JZ Knight of the Ramtha phenomenon had it happen to her. I think Jach Purcell of the Lazaris material did too. It takes a lot out of you, and at some point, you may rebel and want to seize your old life back, and just be yourself again.

All I know today is, that when i used to have to go to other people who did channelling, whoever it was who wished to address me thru them always told me that I did not need the channeller to reach them, that they were with me regardless. When it started happening to me, I understood why.

So PRem Pal singh rawat is NOT the power that used him, spoke to him, came thru him, in the beginning. He has co=opted and corrupted that service and perverted it into his own lusts and greeds and all too human limitations. He speaks of the Master in the third person because it IS a third person! It is not him! He has used it for personal gain, and it will not be forever. It came to him, and it can leave him, without notice.
Just as we can.

The place you went to in that three day experience is real. You saw how it actually is. And prem pal singh rawat has zilch to do with it. Like Bill says , life worked with the conditions you put upon it, and came to you how it could, but it could come to you more, if youtook some of the conditions off.

Maharaji scared us into thinking it had to come from him, because it brought him things.
Truth is, it can come to us regardless of him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 05:22:49 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: I hope I can help you Livia
Message:
PLEASE somebody give me an explanation!!!

Livia, you sound like you sincerely need some help with this, I am probably wading into deep waters here but I will do my best to toss out a life ring or two.

First of all you do not have to throw out that which is near and dear to you nor do you have to deny the essence of what brought you to M&K in the first place.

What is important today is for you discern what really is and has been going on with m and the cult and leave it behind you. Treasure the good memories, but don't get caught up in eurporic recall associating your personal experiences with those of the cult indoctrination. I feel that you understand whatever you experienced that you once attributed to M was not through him but from within YOU by YOU.

Your longing, your desire, your need to fullfill something within yourself created by you alone the experience that you attributed to M.

I also know that you don't have to have anything to do with M to have an experience like this; but if M is a complete fraud, why did this happen?
You are right Livia

What you experienced slipped through the cracks of the cult and m and took you to a place which is totally of your own experience way beyond the bondage of devotion to the master, guru, devotee relationship that he cultivates.

This is where m falls short and becomes scandalous, fraudulent, he takes what is yours and claims it as his own. Don't let him get away with it anymore, take back what you gave up and become whole once again, for he can only rob you with your permission.

You gave m all the credit long ago because at that time you were conditioned to do so and you were not able to accept the responsibility for your own experience, your own beauty your own free will. You don't have to do that anymore.

With m out of the way there is one less limitation in your way to explore your own personal spiritual vision if that is what you want to do.

Basically just learn to love and trust yourself again, you have all of the answers for yourself just nuture them. Things will start to gradually come together the pieces will fit just fine and your life will make more sense than it ever did.

I hope this helps
Love to you,
Brian

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:25:56 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: I hope I can help you Livia
Message:
Dear Brian and Janet, Thank you so much for your very kind words - I really needed to hear them; I was getting a bit confused after reading that Marolyn thing and the intense memory it brought up for me. I'm now thinking two things: maybe as you say, M really was a channel for a higher power in those days (I've felt too much to be able to turn round now and disbelieve in a higher power or essence of some kind).

The more I think about it, I do think M was sincere in the early days, and maybe his intense desire to spread K to the world was so real for him that it connected him to something, and we all picked up on this and were carried along with it. There really was so much sincerity and longing for truth around in those days, and I know we all cared very much about helping to make this world a better place, and felt we could do this by helping M to spread K.

For me it kind of died in the era beginning in 1977, when M suddenly put the emphasis on devotion above evrything else. (Although having said that, my 'cosmic 3 days' were in 78, but it was an isolated experience.) Generally speaking, I felt that the atmosphere from 77 onwards wasn't that good. I just didn't feel comfortable with it any more. There seemed to be more emphasis on devotion and surrender to M than on actually experiencing K and helping others to get to the experience of K. I rationalised this in my head by imagining that K couldn't be experienced without surrender, but surrender was becoming a more and more unattractive option. I lived in an ashram for a while at this point, but the love and joy amongst the premies wasn't the same as it had been earlier, it felt laboured and less real. There was little spontaneity and some of the premies around me began to seem robotic, even scary. A few years later I was definitely finding a lot more love and sponteneity completely away from the premie world, so that's where I went. However, the experiences I'd had from 72 - 76 (and that one in 78) had been so real that it kept my faith alive. I suppose looking back now I should have exited around then (post 78).

Maybe M really did lose the plot at that time, and whatever had been coming through him (this is just a theory!) left him. After that, we were merely going through the motions and trying to do what he told us in the hope that the spirit of the early days would come revive? For me it never did, really. In fact, I really feel I wasted those years 78 - 83, and I feel angry with myself about it. I'll probably start feeling angry with M about it too, soon. But I suppose it's in the past and I'll have to let it go. Fortunately from 83 I really started following my heart (as I think a lot of us did) and putting my energies into other things, and I'm so glad I did.

The other thing I'm thinking is that if you long for truth, whatever, and live with sincerity in the best way you know how, which for us at that time was to devote ourselves to the person we thought was the LOTU, then from time to time out of this world experiences will inevitably occur, because of the intensity and sincerity of the longing.

And 'longing for truth' doesn't only have to mean 'spiritual truth', - if it's a genuine need to know truth, then a courageous seeker shouldn't afraid to examine objective truth too, and use his/her discrimnation to work out what's really going on. The huge problem for the remaining premies is that they are forbidden by the person they still see as the LOTU from examining some objective truth, and this is where it all comes tumbling down.

If a premie is a sincere seeker of truth, the thing that brought him to M and K in the first place, then by being afraid to look at the contents of EPO, he has turned from being a seeker of truth into an obedient pawn. And that is the tragedy for the premies today - actually it's quite heartbreaking. The magic, the love, the depth, the joy have all but gone but they daren't go anywhere else.

Brian, your post to me made me cry; it released something, thank you so much.

Love to you all, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:19:41 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Bravo! I knew you could do it, Livia
Message:
And 'longing for truth' doesn't only have to mean 'spiritual truth', - if it's a genuine need to know truth, then a courageous seeker shouldn't afraid to examine objective truth too, and use his/her discrimnation to work out what's really going on. The huge problem for the remaining premies is that they are forbidden by the person they still see as the LOTU from examining some objective truth, and this is where it all comes tumbling down.

If a premie is a sincere seeker of truth, the thing that brought him to M and K in the first place, then by being afraid to look at the contents of EPO, he has turned from being a seeker of truth into an obedient pawn. And that is the tragedy for the premies today - actually it's quite heartbreaking. The magic, the love, the depth, the joy have all but gone but they daren't go anywhere else.

I knew you could figure this thing out for yourself. These are some amazing insights you have shared with us today, as good as it gets.

The work you have done here is very helpful to the rest of us especially the numerous lurkers who read and observe yet another person reclaiming themselves from the myth.

The thanks go to you today Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 08:50:53 (EST)
From: JS
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: I hope I can help you Livia
Message:
I agree with you Livia...there's no need to construct a 'new reality' concerning any involvement or experiences you might have had while around maharaji and being a premie...

I think that the search for truth demands that we guard against that sort of stuff, which as you say, is just the flip side of what the cult said and did for all of those years...

I absolutely feel that when I got into k and m, that it was my own individual search for truth that landed me on his doorstep.
It seemed to supply me with something that I needed at that time...it seemed to work, although there was always a nagging feeling inside me that something just wasn't right with the whole thing....I had the feeling that there were things I didn't know that would bother me if I did know them....an inexplainable feeling that not everything was right...

But like many others, I continued steadily until about 2 years ago (1972-1999) when too many things simply told me to question this whole thing and to ultimately leave it.
When I did, I 100% knew that I was following my heart, and that in my ongoing search for truth, it was absolutely the right thing to do.
What a breath of fresh air it was, when I exited!
Yes, there were chains of fear, doubt and guilt, but once I broke through them, what a freedom!
Actually, in exiting, I took some of m's advice about life, in order to help with the process.
Also, when I did leave him, and realized what a burden he was on my system, I actually began to experience life in a much more satisfying,beautiful way....those wonderful experiences he talks about of a simple, natural, peaceful feeling were much more accessible now that I had left him, and they were also mine, not his.

In terms of finding the truth, EPO has been a valuable tool, although I admit, many times there's a lot of stuff you have to wade through to get to it.

I believe it is imperative that you know everything about a supposed teacher, especially when the claims they make are as grandiose as m's have been.
It is imperative that m stand up and account for all of those things he said, and now denies ever having said.
It is imperative that these things are known BEFORE someone considers receiving knowledge, so that they can make an intelligent, informed decision on just what they are getting into, and who they are going to be involved with for the rest of their life, and supposedly, the next life as well.....

M's irresponsibility is held in check in many ways simply because of the existence of EPO.
It's telling that it could be so threatening to him, and obvious why certain people are trying to destroy or discredit it.

As far as experiences go, I too had powerufl experiecnes from festivals etc., but I have far better ones now.
They are mine, and not dependent upon someone that I don't respect or trust.

Isn't it funny how M says proudly, and arrogantly, that HE doesn't need a 'middle man'?
He has said that many times...he doesn't need a religion, because he has a direct connection...he doesn't need the 'middle man'....

But what he then does is, is to trap all of his followers into believing that they DO need a middle man, which of course, is him!

He has them in psycho/spiritual bondage, and if he really wanted to free them, he would tell them to get their own lives and quit the 'devotion game', that only seems to benefit him, and disempower them.
I can't tell you how many premies I know who still don't know what they want to do in life, and feel that they continually need to see him for 'clarity' or a 'tune up'....they are still waiting for something that will not come to them until they wake up and realize that is up to them to do it.....somehow, they still think he will supply some 'missing link'....in some cases, it really is quite sad, and sadder yet because m steadfastly refuses to accept any responsibility for his part in the deceptive game...it's always the premies that are confuesed or wrong, never him...

I feel that your experiences, and the intensity and meaningfulness of them, is completely dependent on the sincerity and involvement you are willing and able to bring to the table yourself.

I see this in the church I go to, and the yoga practice I am involved in.....

Life is beautiful, especially when you are free...
It's even a beutiful mind...

I just wish m would have the guts and authenticity to face his own problems, and stop screwing with the premies lives...they have no idea how deeply conditioned they are, until they finally step out of m's 'golden cage'....he can help them with that, but unfortunately it would involve him telling the truth, which would cause most of the premies to leave....

Best wishes, livia...

Hope I didn't confuse you too much with this early morning rambling....got to get my coffee and go to work....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:18 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: JS
Subject: Have you posted here before?
Message:
Hi JS,

I don't rememeber seeing your name before? Are you new?

Nice post, sincere.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:38 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: JS
Subject: to all of you
Message:
I just want to say to all of you have posted today on this thread: a big heartfelt thanks. You've helped me to remove another layer. I hope I can be there for you all as much as you've been there for me.

Lots of love and hugs to all of you dear people

Livia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:15:40 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: So whatcha got to add to that??t??
Message:
That John Hampton told us little premieji's Marilyn couldn't stop crying when she moved into the ashram, and one day Maharaji sent him to get her, so he fetched her up to the residence. No more details, that's all. Also I remember a quote that had Maharaji saying he was such a magician, that a perfect master could bind himself to and free himself from creation at the same time ie his coma.

But what I wanna know is, if his 'mission' depends on Marilyn, then what's Monica got to do with it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:01:03 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: i'm winging this part
Message:
The way I gethered it, I guess Marolyn's role was to marry him and make him more earthy and relatable by having kids and being a family man. Anchor him in a more mundane lifestyle, supposedly.

Never mind the green card. Oh no--look not at that man behind the curtain!

So either that part was finished when the kids became pretty much adults, hit the age of consent or drinking or driving or legal emancipation--

or maybe marolyn's aneurism put her out of the running?

kh'oo knows, dollink--? call em as you see em. that's what i do.

so whats this about the denver residence?? you were saying?...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:13:48 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: LOL...
Message:
Here is another one

74 m was here at the residence , and felt some pain in his
back , or perhaps it was in another part of his body , i am not
sure about where the pain was

But as the nigth , went on , he was in so much pain that one of the
premies , had the service to bring him to the hospital.

When they came inside the hospital , he was in so much pain that
nobody could come near him , he was screaming like a dog.

The poor premie was talking to the staff, and then to M

At last , the lord of the universe,, allowed them to look at him

Then...

They told him , that, nothing was wrong , he was just fine ..

M and the premie went home happy togheter.

And the premie left the cult 2 years after

L.O.L

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:06:39 (EST)
From: Friendly Z
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Really Helping Ourselves Practically
Message:
Hello, and thank you all for the great input.

Thank you also to Steve M. who has been a real source of support and information for me as I have recently realized the man I've loved for a while is a premie. He's a wonderful person with tremendous light and love (when it's not being shrouded by the cloak of M and which I only get glimpses of BECAUSE of the cloak) and though I don't know how our story will unfold, I do know I'm very, very interested in learning more from observing the Forum and EPO.

Steve M. is a true source of light in this world and I know his intentions to make this Forum as positive as possible are also echoed by each of you.

Yes, I may get the media involved at some point because I do have good connections. I'll do that with the best intentions of trying to help those who post, those who observe who are thinking of ex-ing and even though who are thinking of starting their involvement with M & K - with the big-picture intent of stopping M and his unclear heart.

I want to express how much I am literally moved by the thread above talking about the de-progamming issues/thoughts/feelings and how much good is being done by not only journaling out the feelings - but to have instant feedback and support. Therapists can be VERY useful - how many of them, though, can respond so quickly! Wow, my heart is so touched by how much this has affected each of you, in similar - yet differing ways. I know that my dear friend is also soooooo affected, that truly makes my heart break. And, to then think about how hard it may be for him to leave, if he ever chooses to..... break, break, break....

So, you see, even though I saw this as 'only a chat room' 24 hours ago (while the Barry discussions were going on) - I also find it to be a great source of not only support for each of you - but for myself also. From my point of view and my needs base - I'd of course like to not have to read the 'barry threads' - though I realize they are a reality of this kind of medium.

Please know I'll be observing and gathering as much info from each of your thoughtful insights/postings - as well as the great stuff I've already found on EPO.

Watching with thoughtful eyes.....

Friendly Z

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:51:50 (EST)
From: Good intentions...
Email: None
To: Friendly Z
Subject: ...pave the road to hell.
Message:
And ignorance is the compass that gives that road its direction.

If your friend is happy then be quiet enough to listen to him, and you will understand what makes him tick.

On the other hand, you know nothing of the state of being of the people whose advice you come here to seek. If the echo of your own fear is the message you hear from them, you will not be able to hear your friend. Then not only will you lose your friend, but you will have given license to the fear you embraced to determine the direction of your own life.

Lamentably, reality one day seeps through the fortress built by fear.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:20:28 (EST)
From: a fly on the wall
Email: None
To: Good intentions...
Subject: Why must the alternative to Rawatism
Message:
... always be portrayed by premies like 'good intentions' as fear?

Au contraire, I believe it is the fear of the premies that there is nothing good in the world except Rawat's bhakti juju that makes them paint every option that is not Rawat and K as 'fear' 'hate' and anything else negatori.

Sorry cult member. There's a lot of fresh air, love, peace, joy, happiness, freedom, truth and light outside your little compound. If you find some inside there, more power to you, but the sun shines on all -- it doesn't pick favorites. But your guru does, and convinces you that every soul that doesn't have HIM as a master is lost.

Wake up and walk.

bzzzz......

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:00:20 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Friendly Z
Subject: Welcome Friendly Z (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:00:57 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Friendly Z
Subject: The ups and downs of chatroom
Message:
Dear Friendly Z,

Yes Z, there are many times when the threads seem more like a kitty litter box and I say what the heck are you wasting your time here for! And then, before my feelings on it can even settle, some newly departed ex, or someone like you who has lurked and finally posted, comes aboard. Or a regular user posts a little nugget and the responses are just great.

This is a chatroom, and will take on the use of the majority of the persons posting at any given time. Virtual and ephemeral, and yet very visceral and also helpful.

Remember that the real meat for the media is thoughtfully collected in EPO. However, there are many individual posts that can be harvested from here as well. I save my favorites to my hard drive. (Go into printer friendly mode, copy and paste.)

Welcome aboard,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:54:48 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Friendly Z
Subject: Well said, Z
Message:
While the Barry brouhaha was happening the forum did seem like a chatroom that deserved no respect. That happens occassionally when people who have not seen the gravitas of the forum (as Jim put it when explaining to Barry that he would never fit in here) post here.

But really it is a bit more than a chatroom. It is like a community or even group therapy as you put it and, as you are involved with a premie, I'm sure you'll find quite a lot in common with us. Welcome aboard.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:42:39 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: OT-PATC read this
Message:
Please,
can I have your e-mail address? very important.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:57:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: salsa
Subject: Here it is, Silvia
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:14:31 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Light Reading/The 1976 Renaissance
Message:
Being out of hearing distance of Maharaji's directive to destroy all the older cult materials, it appears Housemum has a treasure trove of cult artifacts, unlike me, who threw everything in the trash years ago.

Anyhow, Housemum mentioned the publication Light Reading, and that brought up some memories.

If I remember correctly, in the Renaissance of 1976, when at least some premies got out from under the repression of the cult somewhat, moved out of the ashrams in droves, got married, etc., there were a number of creative things that premies instigated.

One was the whole 'workshop' movement, when it was actually sort of okay to think and have opinions, (and I remember at COLL we even had 'classes' in various things that premies taught each other, and I think Marc Lerner had a lot to do with that) and another was a few creative endeavors like that Denver publication. All of this was very short-lived, however, and Maharaji condemned it all repeatedly for years to come as just 'mind.'

My recollection is that some premies in Denver, including cool guy and PLEASE CONSIDER THIS contributor, Mitch Ditkoff, put together Light Reading and it actually covered some things that weren't 'satsang.'

I remember living in Chicago at the time, and having friends send me copies of Light Reading when it came out in Denver. There were interviews with premies, even restaurant and movie reviews. Really. I recall interviews with people about controversial subjects, like abortion, and even some vaguely political issues were discussed.

Unfortunately, 1976 came to an end, and Maharaji declared all that as 'mind' in no uncertain terms in Atlantic City in December, 1976. (Cynthia is transcribing the Coordinators Conference when Maharaji said that stuff.) Mishler tells us why he did this, because he felt if he didn't control that stuff and if premies didn't continue to see him as God, his money, and the lifestyle to which he had become accustomed, would go away.

Then, as 1977 progressed, the dark, Catholic, repressive period began in the Maharaji cult and there was no such thing as workshops, Light Reading, or anything other than satsang, service (ONLY TO MAHARAJI) and Meditation, even those to be superceded by DEVOTION and SURRENDER as the dark ages began for the rest of that decade well into the 80s.

Anyhow, just recalling what a talented, creative group premies were and what a waste of talents, not to mention love and devotion, the cult has been. It seems Maharaji has done his best to stamp out any form of self-expression, creativity and spontaneous endeavors from then on, always demanding that people surrender their opinions and self-esteem to him and his stunted ideology.

Anyone else remember that?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:49:47 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I remember this brief era
Message:
The infamous workshop period, sort of a minute foray into the why's and wherefores of ones relationship to the cult and m. My guess is that these workshops may have been a shortlived attempt by the cult to address the rising tide of the me generation phycobabble stemming from the EST, lifespring movements gaining popularity at that time.

We all sat around in a group and told each other what we thought of each other, that lasted about one session, the animosity and general lack of skilled faciliation was appalling.

I remember another time as a group we all had to write out our reasons for being there on a oversized name card and pin it on our lapels and walk around and read each others reasons.

Most people had the usual cult speak spelled out like, I am here to dedicate my life to GMJ, I am here to know God, I am here to be a better premie etc. The one that stands out most in my mind because this was an aspirant that I had brought and he said, "I have absolutely no idea why or what I am doing here?"

The was probably the most genuine thing that I heard in those entire sessions, by the way he never did receive knowledge. He was turned down because he asked too many questions. He finally rejected the whole thing himself and walked away in disgust, Today I wish that I had followed his lead.

Just another chapter in the annuals of the cult chronicles, thanks Joe, for the reminder of this brief period of freshness and unpredictability in an otherwise stoic and ritualized experience.

BTW the reason that I wrote on my card was "I am here to be blasted into cosmic consciousness" I am laughing my ass off as I vividly remember this little incident, it was quite fun really.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:46:15 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Gopi's Sharing and Relationships
Message:
I don't really recall the changes being so definite as I left the ashram in '75 so things loosened up for me anyway. However I remember Judy(?) the midwife comingover to the Palace of Peace and talking about 'sharing' and being honest and using the word 'relationship' which i don't recall hearing before this.

Also there was, in London, GOPIs Gay Open Premies, which seemed pretty revolutionary at the time.

The fact that, in the 70's, this was even noticeable says a lot about how things were in the premie world I guess.

Peg

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:36:12 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Gay Open Premies?
Message:
I recall the cult as being pretty homophobic, although there were some 'out' premies I knew. I was a total closet-case, in fact I didn't even realize I was gay, although there certainly were indications in retrospect.

I know of one guy at COLL, this sweet brother who looked a bit of a nerd, who, upon leaving the ashram in 1976 (and I think the cult too), became a body builder and some kind of 'leather gay icon.' Can't recall the guy's name at the moment, but I thought that was pretty cool at the time.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:33:02 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: True confessions
Message:
True confessions of a non-renunciate ashram resident

I mentioned in the thread below with the Denver ashram photo that there were openly gay couples in that ashram (not people in the photo that I'm aware of). Once GMJ married MJ, it was seen as permission to be open about any relationship. And IHQ ashram resident couples were seen everwhere. The 1263 Josephine Street ashram had a big locker room style group shower for the brothers. Once it became obvious that there were openly gay men in the house, there was a waiting line for the one single shower. Being unused to gay men, I was shy to be so exposed as it were. Now Joe Anctil did take me for coffee once and told me verbatim 'If you ever find yourself in bed with a gay man, don't miss out on the experience of a lifetime.' Sage advice from M's ashram-bound press secretary at the time.

Not to ignore the ladies, there was at least one lesbian at 1263 whose 'friend' would come to visit. Over at 1124 Vine Street, where I lived in 1976 before moving to COLL, there were several late night liasons including a notable one involving a lesbian couple who conveniently shared a room. Being intimately involved with someone myself, I was more tolerant than some. Come to think of it, my less-than-celibate lifestyle may precisely be why I was sent to COLL. Of course, it continued there unabated (as it were).

I've been mulling this topic over ever since Joe posted the sad tale of his ashram mate trying to castrate himself to stop his 'impure thoughts'. I had considered posting this as a new thread but this thread provided the right opportunity.

As I've said elsewhere, having a healthy sense of humor, following my mind (basic human urges) and essentially taking care of myself, saved me from deeper enmeshment.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:59:48 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Gay Open Premies?hell yes
Message:
I clearly remember being invited to lesbian's satsang right up the street from the shelter, and seeing a number of out sisters that night and elsewhere. not everyone there was gay, some were friends of friends. i had the odd fortune to feel like dressing in surplus store navy whites that day, so i showed up looking like i was in dyke drag unintentionally--middy blouse and bells and sailor cap. instant acceptance with the ladies.
Trudy Sippola was there, so was Sophia Collier/Schmitz and whatever she called herself. She once sidled up to me in the Shelter laundry room and smiled, all lazy and cute, and came on to me. To this day, I wish I had taken her up on it, to see where it led. But noooo, I had to be all celibate and pure and demure....

i dont recall the gay premies going back in the closet after they came out. for years afterward i knew who was who in that crowd.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:33:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Gay Open Premies?
Message:
Started by another Patrick (an Irish guy who was my lover for a while) and his boyfriend, a young mixed-race West Indian guy. The GOPIs were the living nightmare for all the PoP honchos.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:13:57 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: Kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Peg
Subject: Differences Between Countries
Message:
Peg,

It might also be that there was some variation among the countries as to how the 'renaissance' manifested. Denver seemed to be the focal point of the removal of the heaviness. But elsewhere in the States there were reverberations, but the ashrams remained open in quite a number of cities, for example.

I understand that in Australia things really fell apart. For example, I've been told that in 1976 all the ashrams in Australia closed.

Maybe in the UK things didn't change as much? I think Canada might have been a bit more straight-laced than the US as well.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:37:30 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Differences Between Countries
Message:
Derek Harper was the Australian national cordinator in 1976 and deliberately closed the ashrams down. This pissed off Mr Rawat at the time, I believe. It was not a a falling-apart, but a premeditated effort to re-invent the movement. Brave move, but no-one expected the reinvention of Old Style Devotion, not by those crazed Indian mahatmas but by the man himself.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:53:54 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: That's Surprising
Message:
What, was Derek Harper the King of Australia or something? Why did people do what he said? I suppose he said he was doing it because he had direction from the Goo, right? What did the other King of Australia, Padarthanad, have to say about that?

There seemed to be a hardcore group in the States who, under no circumstances would have left the ashram or let them be closed unless the Cult Leader himself, said so.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:00:12 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: That's Surprising
Message:
I'll have to have a talk with Derek to rediscover the details, but it would be unlikely for him to claim he had direction. I'd say he felt it was a good idea at the time. And he is a Leo, after all.

John Macgregor might have a bit more background, as I was overseas when it happened.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:37:09 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: National Coordinators
Message:
It seems that in some countries National Coordinators had more power and were listened to more than in others. It was my recollection that in the states they were questioned a lot more, I think probably because Maharaji was around more, and Maharaji as always making fun of them. But it seems that in some countries, maybe Australia and others, National Coordinators, and maybe Mahatmas too, were more revered.

I also felt that the closer you got to where Maharaji actually was, the less premies were impressed by coordinators, mahatmas and initiators. In Miami, they were a dime a dozen and people hardly paid attention to them, whereas in the provinces they had more influence.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:58:00 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: National Coordinators
Message:
Not realy Joe. Im australia the National co-ordinator and the other High guys were usuall treated the same as others. I can remember on of the Hi Guys geing called a prick at a satsang in my community...... I think it was Dick Cooper or Derick Harper and quite a few premies agreed. Funny thin though I can remember the Highguy agreeing. Well may be its our aussie houmour.Q
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:35:25 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Padarthanand
Message:
Thanks Quiet, interesting. What about Padarthanand, though. I remember he used to tour in the states and basically claim credit for all the wonderful things happening in the Pacific, under his rule. We, of course, made fun of him and called it 'Pacific-sang.' BTW -- Padarthanad was a terrible racist in the 70s. I don't know if he still is.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:09:44 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Padarthanand
Message:
Oh Paddy.........yes well he was a nice guy.......a psycologist before he became a Mahatma (sorry im a bad spella) Well ther were some wonderful things that did happen down here.......it was when people came together and basically had fun and got to know each other. I cant knock that....but harnising that basic human condition and directing it for the Perpous of making mr Rawit a God like creature im my opinion was rong (wrong spellin again?) I dont know weather he was a racist I want a Hi guy.....just one of the lowly bragon benders. Q
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:23:59 (EST)
From: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Re: Padarthanand
Message:
Yu ar about az reel az I am. HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:38:19 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Subject: Re: Padarthanand
Message:
WOW!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:02:55 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: National Coordinators
Message:
I can't recall either David Lovejoy or Derek Harper being revered in Australia. I was the acting national cordinator for a while, and I missed out on being revered, too. Padarthanand was definitely revered.

I'll try to find out more about the 76 putsch, Joe.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:20:21 (EST)
From: North Shore Babe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Re: National Coordinators
Message:
We all thought you were a pompous prick..
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:06:52 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: North Shore Babe
Subject: LOL accuracy will get you nowhere NT
Message:
xx
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:50:27 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: North Shore Babe
Subject: What a scaredy cat!
Message:
Can't even insult someone without hiding behind double anonymity!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:37:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Thanks, McDuck
Message:
I watched part of the Passages video last night and it's clear that the cult has no interest whatsoever in historical accuracy, or in recording anything that isn't completely favorable to Maharaji. So, I guess it's up to the ex-premies to keep the historical record. It will be interesting to hear what people remember about "the Derek Directives."

I just wonder why people did what he said if he didn't say it was M's directions, and he wasn't "revered" as the coordinator. Why would they do something as drastic as closing the ashrams after M had brow-beat us into staying there, if they didn't think Derek knew something they didn't?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:01:45 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe have you got all the old stuff?
Message:
Hi Joe, let me introduce myself im Q.......bad spella , wouldbe lawyer and a favourate target of some of the older regs on this site. oh i have also bee acused of being a TROLL by the uninformed. Ho did i mention some of my posts were deleated by the site Janitor.

Well enough about me. Im trying to get all the back grown info on Mr Rawlt`s (did i spell that right?) cult. I am trying to get all the broken promises and his modus opperandie ( i bet i spelt that one rong too) over the years and basically any CREDIBLE EVIDENCE of any wrong doing bye him or his kohorts (ops an other one)that may be presented to a court (or is it kort, geesus wheres me dicshonary...that would be no use i cant read any way) . I wish to remain anon..........hopefully you dont have to figure out why. Can you help?
Q
Ps if im deleated sorry

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:22:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Sorry, Quiet
Message:
I thought you might have something of significance to say, but it's clear you are just fucking around. That's too bad. You know, trying to take on a new persona requires some ability to do that, which you obviously don't have. See, Quiet, if people misspell something they usually don't know they are doing it. So your little parentheticals kind of give you away, kiddo. Your name isn't Rob by any chance, is it?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 19:36:47 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Sorry, Quiet
Message:
sorry you feel that way joe. Im having a shot at people who think that correct spelling is the measurement of a person. and No my name ist Rob
Q
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:12:28 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Quiet, correct spelling.............
Message:
.........is a courtesy extended to other adults in a civilized society. Why should anyone bother to read subliterate rubbish let alone take it seriously and respond to it? Please take some classes in English and then you may people will react to you more respectfully.

How you ever think you will be a lawyer with your shallow grasp of the language is beyond me. Or do you intend to praqctice law in Melanesia where there is no written language?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:43:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Lots of lawyers can't write or spell........
Message:
So that might not be the best example. It isn't incorrect language that's the concern. It's the obvious facade this 'Quiet' is putting on. The fact that it's obvious means he doesn't do it well, which I guess is good for us.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 05:53:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Lots of lawyers can't write or spell........
Message:
Those aren't lawyers. They're shysters.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:42:31 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Canadian Ashrams were administered by
Message:
people with cucumbers stuck up their #$%^&*. I lived at the side of 90 Albert Street in London, Ontario. I was told not to sunbathe because it was disturbing to the 'brothers.'

The ashram women wore white blouses and skirts to the ground. They sure looked ridiculous walking down the street the regular folks in micro skirts. I remember going to the market with Phylis Brown. She was dressed like a woman of the 90s--the 1890s that is. Meanwhile, I wore short shorts. We must have looked very strange. There was no hanky panky going on around here.

Anne Johnston told the married premies to stop having sex for heaven's sake (indeed). Yep, we were well controlled here in Canada, for sure.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:39:32 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Re: Canadian Ashrams were administered by
Message:
I'm differentiating myself from the other Chris (cq) - whata ya think? ChrisP : describes how the cult toasted me :)

Yea, I still have a few memory cells left from those ashram years. We sure made quite the fashion statements, eh! Right down to the cool accessories - Who is Guru Maharaji buttons. Like a good 'lil premie spreading the Word, I even wore it to work one day. There was a provincial election campaign on that week when the boss (a university head) passed me in the hallway and with a bubbly, friendly cheer asked 'And who might you be campaigning for?' as he looked at my pin. When he finished reading 'Who is GMJ' his face went purple, then white as he backed away. Can't remember what we both were stuttering to each other in desperate attempt to ease the embarrassment as we continued in our separate directions. I wonder if that hasn't left me with some kind of complex to this day?!

Then there were the mahatma visits; one joyously had us all attempt an all-night meditation session. Every time I'd glance out the corner of my eye, there'd be one more person sitting against the wall with mouth hanging open and head tilted. After about 2 hours, we all got a jolt when we heard the mahatma fall out of bed with a big kerplunk on the floor above us. I eventually slid into place at the end of line against the wall, but can't remember waking there in the morning to start Arti. I guess we must have all eventually called it a night....

Chris, those were the days

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:38:36 (EST)
From: Bai nary Code Ji
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: Chris Pee
Message:
Hello, It is good to hear from you.
Welcome
Bai Ji XXX
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:57:11 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: Nothing stopped the train we were on!
Message:
Circa 1979, MJ had a birthday party bash with formal waiters, etc. I packed up my two-year-old and went on a bus with the rest of the London, Ontario gang. Jennifer Boire headed this mission to Miami. En route, my daughter aspirated all over me, but we could stop? NO! There wasn't time. Even the bus drivers were fed up. Neither of them got to sleep a wink due to the 24-hour, nonstop singsong of arti, Please Teach Me Devotion and so on.

Years later, a local yokel got a job with that same charter company and they told him of this famous trip--their worst ever and no tip. I guess their tip went to the Lard in Jennifer's wisdom.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:43:43 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller to Gail: about
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Gail
Subject: Jennifer, Debbie Mac, Stuart McDougal
Message:
Gail: Hi. I seem to remember a Gail in Toronto after I returned there in Sept, '79. Do you remember me - Steve Mueller? Also, I knew Jennifer Boire from way back in Nov, 1973. She hailed from Ottawa where I received K in March, 1973. I always liked her and respected her a lot. Very cheerful person. Do you know where she is now? Has she exed yet? Just wondering. Also, Gail, did you know Debbie Mac (short for McIntyre)? Does she still 'practice' or has she exed? Lastly, Gail, do you know if instructor Stuart McDougal has exed? Thanks, Gail. (So as not to bore others any more than I already have, go ahead and email me if you like. Thanks.)
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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:50:56 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: jame916@aol.com
To: Steve Mueller to Gail: about
Subject: Re: Jennifer, Debbie Mac, Stuart McDougal
Message:
Hi Steve, Gail and Jim. Wow, a Canadian contingency here. I also know Jennifer, Debbie and Stuart. I've just sent you all an email, so I won't go on much here.....

Cheers from Canada

ChrisP, how the cult has toasted me

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 10:26:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller to Gail: about
Subject: I can answer some of those
Message:
Steve,

I'm a Canadian ex, vintage 4/73. I know all those people, some quite well.

Jennifer and I lived in several ashrams and communities together in the seventies. We sang together at times and were pretty close at times. She's still in, living somewhere in Quebec, perhaps Montreal, married with kids, I believe. She's the contact person or at least was not so long ago. I got her email from some Canadian EV contact roster and said hi. Sadly, she was curt and dismissive. Indeed, so was her sister, Sue, who I was also close with. I contacted her a couple of years ago when she was living in Calgary (she since moved to Enlgand to study art for a while, might be back, don't know). Sue and I were also close. She just told me to 'get a life' and that was that.

Debbie Mac was still in Toronto last time I heard but that was years ago already. I think I heard that she'd grown quite successful doing set designs, but you can't quote me on that. She did get her start doing all that festival prep, remember?

Stuart is living in Vancouver. Ever faithful, he's a video 'event' stalwart. I think he's working as a security guard. Laruie and I met Steve Quint, a Vancouver ex, once and joined him at one of these video thingamajiggers last year. I jsut wanted to see who'd show up as I lived in Van years ago. I sat beside Stuart and whispered 'hi'. He smiled but that was that. I'd told Steve earlier that I wanted to talk with him at some point but he wasn't interested. Stuart and I were sent to Ottawa together in '74. He was a nice guy then and I'm sure he's a nice guy now. Boring as hell as an instructor but then the whole shtick was such bullshit.

Where'd you return from in '79? Do you know me?

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 14:16:41 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Response to Jim's question
Message:
Hi, Jim, I think I remember seeing you but I don't think we ever spoke to each other. I was in Toronto from May '73 to May '74 and again from June '75 to Feb '76. I may be wrong but I thought I remember you from the hall we used on Avenue Road in Toronto. I went back and forth between the states and Canada a lot. I lived in the Mpls area from March '77 til Sept '79 when I moved back to T.O. to resume my computer programming career. Worked at Toronto Star and then CNCP Telecommunications before moving my family (permanently) back to Mpls in May '84. I did visit Vancouver for a couple months just prior to the Nov '74 Toronto program. Absolutely loved Vancouver. Totally charming place. Loved BC - ESPECIALLY the Okanagan Valley where we had a totally enchanting mini festival (remember?) in Sept '74 (attended by RajaJi and Claudia). Anyway, I hope to bump into you some day. Thanks for your answers.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:37:41 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: UK 1976
Message:
1976 was the incredibly loose and 'spacey' (as we used to say)period. I'd left the ashram by then but I think it was very loose there too. As for the 'premie centres' (these weren't official ashrams but kinda recognised as centres.....well dope and acid abounded, at least in Leicester and other parts of the Midlands.

The prg at Granby Halls was noticeable in that (a) at the very back of the hall , people were skinning up joints and (b) we only kissed a cushion, not those Holy Lotus tootsies.

At the time I was living with a premie girl just a few yards from the hall. A day or so before I had some acid(first time since becoming an aspirant spring 73.

Of course, the LORD returned in 77 and SSM became the focus. I think he had the Q'A sessions/meetings in Montreal etc etc etc ....then 78/79 Kissimee etc were the space out of 76 was well and truly buried. Intense, totally focussed devotion to him and SSM was the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:17:37 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: re: The 1976 Renaissance
Message:
I recall the time quite well. There was a feeling in the air that we'd weathered the Satguru phase and were moving into a more humanitarian phase. The past was fun but what a relief that the entire trip, M included, would be more relateable to outsiders. I recall Mitch's Light Reading quite fondly. A witty and talented guy.

We were encouraged to 'move on' by leaving the ashram to make room for the new devotees who really needed the focus of the ashram lifestyle. IHQ was being pared down and I was given a choice of being an 'uncle' in the married folks ashram (I would have been the babysitter so the couples could go to satsang) or moving to City of Love and Light (COLL) in San Antonio.

I chose COLL and it was both a shock and a wakeup call. Working a real job was daunting after the relative Ivory Tower atmosphere of IHQ. COLL was supposedly the Renunciate Training Program but it was quite the opposite. The renunciate part was a laugh. I found myself taking care of myself for a change. I'm not particularly proud of it but I kept aside some of my waiter's tips for the inevitable rainy day which came soon enough. Late summer 1976 COLL, along with most of the ashrams, was dismantled and we were all given one way transportation to the community of choice. This was more than most 'shrammies recieved. I caught the schoolbus heading for Denver.

Sexual liasons had been part of life at COLL and even the closing party, held at the retreat house, was clothing optional. After I got back to Denver, it wasn't long before people were getting overwrought about having left the ashram and were begging to move back in. For myself, it was never an issue to move back or not. I had experienced a taste of reality and the good life (money in my pocket and public nudity) so I chose to be a 'householder'.

The folks who went back into the ashram seemed to do so under much M-induced guilt for having left. This after they were made to feel like so much baggage if they wanted to stay in the ashram. I ended up with the best of both worlds at the time. After a stint as a waiter at The Magic Pan in Larimer Square, I was asked to come back to design And It Is Divine and Divine Times with pay (not much). Soon I was living in a DLM subsidized apartment with my girlfriend (we've been married since1984). The nice folks in personel even taught me how to get uneployment benefits and food stamps. Plus I got to go to all the programs, even Rome, on the DLM dole. (Thanks to all the hardworking premies in the provinces that helped support me.) Ah, the relative good life. Especially when compared to what the ashram residents endured, ending up being kicked onto the street and made to pay the ashram debts.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:21:00 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Damn
Message:
I missed the money and nudity period at COLL, I guess. I was transferred to the Boston ashram, I think, in June, 1976. I know COLL went on for some months after that.

I recall when I lived there that it was fairly disciplined, but free from a lot of the politics and direction from 'Denver.' And there certainly wasn't any money. I think we got $5 a week, and you were supposed to buy clothes you needed with that as well. In fact, a lot of ashram premies were sent there as a kind of punishment/reform school. If I remember right, that included Erika Andersen and Suzie Bai Whitten. They were forced to clean cars in the cult car wash business.

THere were a lot of great people there. I always had jobs when I lived there. First, I hauled furniture in a furniture warehouse, then delivered funiture to rich people on the North Side of San Antonio with a guy who spoke about 10 words of English. Then I got a job as a bird-keeper in the San Antonio Zoo. I loved that job, except for the San Antonio ungodly heat working outdoors. I also got to have housemum as a housemum for a period at that "retreat house" with the swimming pool.

As soon as word got out about what Maharaji said at Atlantic City in 12/76, the Initiators began pounding on the people who left about their evil ways, and there was this guilty move back to the ashrams. People who had gotten married got it particularly bad. Yuck.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:56:26 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Damn
Message:
'People who had gotten married got it particularly bad. Yuck.'

Yes, yuck! This was a real mind-yuck for me, since I had been on staff at IHQ, encouraged to leave, gotten married, and then guilt=tripped for years.

Mind-yuck!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:41:35 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: another quote
Message:
Dear Richard, We must know each other. When I'm braver I will write you and we can remember when.

Before I put this box away, here's another quote from the same Divine Light, page 92. It is a series of Q and A's with GMJ and premies, 1971. For those who think he never claimed divinity.

Q. Where should we go?
GMJ. Where should you go? You know, it is recommended for you to apply for devotion. Why? Because you live in the physical form, so enjoy nature with the physical Lord. What else do you want? To be with the Lord and enjoy nature too! Beautiful. Far out.

Q. Isn't the Lord within all physical forms?
GMJ. But the Lord Himself has got a physical form. The Lord is within everybody. He's omnipresent. But He himself, for this world, has got a particular physical form. And He came by Himself into the world to spread this Holy Word.

Q. There can be more than one perfect devotee, right?
GMJ. There can be more than one perfect devotee, but there cannot be more than one Perfect Master. O.K? Anything else?

There are some amazing nuggets here. He calls himself Satguru, says we should merge with the lotus feet. And he was such a smart ass. Such an arrogant little putz.

I'm gonna give it a rest and let my psyche catch up with itself.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:19:55 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Mitchkoffs, Andersens, Weasles et al
Message:
Always point point out out what a chic, cool,great friend/great guy he is....Just a regular ole HUMAN BEING who never claimed otherwise. Not only that , Prem pal Rawat himself points out that WE laid all that trip on HIM!!!!!

This is what really pisses me off.....apologist LIES mean nothing to them. They forget we were there TOO and people like you, housemum, have kept all the evidence to prove that Rawat is just a LIAR and a FRAUD.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:52:38 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: Richard@rogers-graphics.com
To: housemum
Subject: Love you, mum
Message:
Just had to say that. I just read your amazing emotional honesty in the thread below. Please, please, please don't let this stuff put you in psychic flashback. We saw a lot of water go over the dam and it takes awhile to begin to reconcile. You've made a huge splash here and I know I'm not alone in saying you are much appreciated. I lurked here for a couple of years before ever posting so you don't need to rush it.

Email when you feel up to it. We might have known one another but we certainly know some of the other characters in the play.

Group hug for mum,
Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:12:02 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Love you, too
Message:
From you description above, I am pretty certain we knew each other. Altho I can't put a face to your name. But our trajectories were parallel, at least some of the time.

I was embarrassed by online display of emotions, but after all your wonderfully reassuring posts, I feel more at home with you all, and more at home with myself. I am grateful.

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