Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 30, 2002 To: Feb 04, 2002 Page: 5 of: 5


Deputy Dog -:- Please define an 'ex' (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:33:42 (EST)
__ Keith -:- undefined territory -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:34:31 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Is it just a coincidence? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:34:26 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Just a small clarification, Keith -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:19:58 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Very respectful post Keith -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:50:27 (EST)
__ __ Paranoid-EX -:- Re: undefined territory -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:31:24 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- I share your 'paranoia' actually -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:51:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: I share your 'paranoia' actually -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:44:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS ...especially -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:57:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ paranoid ex -:- Very well expressed -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey fellas, how 'bout this line: -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:01 (EST)
__ __ Gail -:- Easy for you to say, Keith, but... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:30:49 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Re: undefined territory -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:29:18 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Dear Keith -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:56:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks Keith -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:47:39 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: undefined territory indeed -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:26:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Agreed Ggerry, 'clever' scam [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:42:00 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- I agree keith.. thankyou -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:13:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, you're so right, Loaf -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:35:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- and you are so right jim -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:28:28 (EST)
__ AJW -:- I once was lost... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:35:02 (EST)
__ Sulla -:- Today is my B-day. Happy new year!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:29:42 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Happy birthday, Sulla -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:43:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Sulla -:- Thanks! You made my day... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:43:02 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Please define an 'ex' - okay -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:11:17 (EST)
__ Jim -:- First you had to have been a premie -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:19 (EST)
__ __ Depuity Dog -:- Very glib, but seriously Jim -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:58:59 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: seriously -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:50:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:32:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:43:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Good point Gail -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:41:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How did you survive 1977-1985??? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:57:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Remember the Dog Story? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:17:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Real question: what is a premie? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:07:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Real question: what is a premie? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:33:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Re: Real question: what is a premie?? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:40:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Gotta jump in here! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:18:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Love this, Disculta ! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:46:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ****BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:46:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah who agrees -:- ****BEST OF FORUM***** [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:29:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's what you never got, Dog -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:04:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Here's what you never got, Dog -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:45:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks but no thanks -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:40:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ OTS -:- You stepped in your own stuff, Dog -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:01:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: You stepped in your own stuff, Dog -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:09:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You are insufferably trite -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:31:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, that's Dale Carnegie [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:13:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Even worse! :) [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:42:36 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- Elementary -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:16 (EST)
__ cq -:- Indefinable. Definitely. (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:29:42 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- but seriously - -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:02:18 (EST)

Silvia -:- The mental bond with MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:43:22 (EST)
__ James BOND -:- Re: The mental bond with MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:32:47 (EST)
__ __ Livia -:- Re: The mental bond with MAHARAJI -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:44:20 (EST)
__ __ wolfie -:- Re: The mental bond with MAHARAJI -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:16:32 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- WRONG, Wrong, and Wrong... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:19:30 (EST)
__ cq -:- Lot of clarity in your insights, Silvia -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:15:45 (EST)
__ wolfie -:- bad affairs -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:56:19 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Too sincere -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:13:07 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- Re: Too sincere -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:14:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Too sincere - LOL -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:10:26 (EST)
__ wolfie -:- -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:54:21 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- Jargon -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 03:10:48 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Jargon -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:38:24 (EST)
__ __ Bai Ji -:- Thanks Cynth (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:26:20 (EST)

housemum -:- women according to M, '72, for Marianne -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:11:36 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Standard Hindu Boilerplate -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:55:15 (EST)
__ Jean-Michell -:- Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:33 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- Re: Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:26:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:35:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Housemum PLEASE -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:40:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- As you like -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:57 (EST)
__ Joe -:- This should go on EPO -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:06:35 (EST)
__ __ housemum -:- I'm ill from my discoveries -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: I'm ill from my discoveries -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ housemum -:- Thanks. Very helpful reassurance (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:20:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- EPO's quote section's here -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:39:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- J-M Get the Whole Book!! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:32:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also, J-M -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Also, J-M -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:06:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Also, J-M -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:41:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: banned videos -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:40:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Viewing the banned movies -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:09:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Joe, about videos -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:32:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bless you Richard -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:58:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- These are rare films, Joe... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:38:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- 'the vine of love'? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:34:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: These are rare films, Joe... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:16:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- McDuck, didn't you co write.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:36:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: McDuck, didn't you co write.. -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:49:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- I loved Surdas the Gardener... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:54:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: I loved Surdas the Gardener... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:13:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Ouch..Unrequited love yet again...(nt) -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:58:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ OTS -:- 'I Must Have That Man' -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:01:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: 'I Must Have That Man' -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 17:32:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Ten Ton Tiny Takes Knowledge -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:22:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Housemum does.... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:44:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Housemum's fear and loathing -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Housemum's fear and loathing -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:31:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Housemum's fear and loathing -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:41:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I think I know what you mean ... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:24:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh yes..... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:23:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: Oh yes..... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:27:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The thing is..... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:35:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is valuable stuff -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- J-M.... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:22:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I think I own the book -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:29:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- JM, pg numbers -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:42:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: JM, pg numbers -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:19:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Re: This is valuable stuff -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:34:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 01:27:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:16:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:06:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- I understand your fear -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:55:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- absolute ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:13:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Babs -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 02:40:16 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:33:42 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please define an 'ex' (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:34:31 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: undefined territory
Message:
Hello!

My son was a longtime premie, then an ex-premie.

It seems to me that he was first caught in the attractive superstitious,supernatural trap of a young messianic Guru Maharaji, but on the positive spin. Then many years later, after learning of myriad deceptions (on the ex-premie website), he reacted and approached the guru from the other side - negative energy. Of course, he probably doesn't agree. Nevertheless, it seems that some people are still trapped; they are defining themselves in reactive and negative terms, within the anti definitions and limitations of the anti-guru theology. In this predicament, a person is still being dictated by the guru, but rather in a negative, reactive, and potentially unhealthy role, clinically speaking.

Now,I am just a retired counsellor who does not know very much about cults. (Although, my wife and I were quite concerned after the Jonestown incident in the 1970s.) So, please forgive my ignorance. Naturally, we were both shocked to see the information at that other website (where I found this link), some of which we suspected, anyway, as regards the money.

At any rate, I have discussed this subject in the past with other mental health care-givers (and all of us at length, in our family).

My own conclusions: the ex-premie website and this forum page may provide a helpful, and even necessary, way-station for those requiring some cult deprogramming. However, except for those persons who administer these sites or serve as deprogrammers, it might actually be harmful for others to regard these sites as some kind of final destination. (Again, I may well be mistaken; this might be a club, perhaps, too?)

Yet, from the analyses of my colleagues, I must conclude that if one's goal is to be free of the guru's monkey trap, then after realizing the facts, a sensible person must gradually wean oneself from the psychological clutches apparent in a reverse mode of animosity, too (however clearly understandable, and for which I sympathize). To do otherwise, however, logically places an individual in a dualistic and perhaps destructive mentality. Persons leaving other cults have experienced these same difficulties, incidentally.

If the alleged goal is to actually be free of the guru and his ideology, and to rid oneself of dysfunctional codependency or consuming hatred, then at some point a comprehending person will decide to move forward healthily in life, leaving behind the remaining vestiges of the cult conditioning, in a new-found and full awareness and freedom.

Certainly, it appears that while some have benefitted from meditation itself, many persons were greatly harmed by the guru and his church. For what it's worth, I would hope that ex-premies and premies alike move forward and fulfill the remainder of their lives, consciously shedding and ridding themselves of group conditioning and conformity. As long as one is trapped in either a pro or anti Guru Maharaji mindset, though, there is no genuine freedom from the guru or his cult's abuses (or from the gradual effects of a similar anti doctrine). There is so much more to life, anyway.

I hope these observations don't offend anyone's sensitivities.

Thank you to those responsible for providing a website where my son was able to deprogram and then move on, leaving the guru behind.

Also, we strongly recommend professional counselling for anyone leaving a cult, or having difficulties dealing with this situation.

Good luck!

Sincerely,

Keith

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:34:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Is it just a coincidence?
Message:
Keith,

Is it just a happy coincidence that your advice is exactly the same as Maharaji's: 'if you don't like it, shut up about it and leave him alone'? Funny, huh?

First, I don't buy any of that 'codependency', 'reactive' or 'dualism' psychobabble. It doesn't really mean anything although it gives people who use it a false sense that they're really saying something. They're not. You say you're a retired counsellor? I'm sure this kind of jargon is a wonderful lubricant for counselling but so much of counselling is smoke and mirrors anyway. Well, this is part of the smoke, in my opinion.

Beyond that, though, you have no idea what we all do in life, how full or empty our lives are or why. Also, you don't know what each of us individually gets out of our involvement here. Surely it's different for different people and changes even for each one of us, perhaps, over time. You know nothing about any of that.

Also, you say nothing at all about how your prescription affects the cult itself. Why?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:19:58 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Just a small clarification, Keith
Message:
When you speak of your son 'learning of myriad deceptions (on the ex-premie website)' - I hope! you don't mean to imply that the ex-premie website was the source of the deception.

It just sounded that way, when I read through your post the first time.

Regards

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:50:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Very respectful post Keith
Message:
THank you for sharing your insights. This forum is dynamic and seems to find it's own equilibrium. And that point of equilbrium constantly shifts to accomodate new people, the latest spin by M's PR or himself, and the longer we are here. It is not driven by administration.

The club- look is because we have all crossed paths and speak the same language. We were all in the same cult, maybe the same festival, sometimes the same ashram or non-ashram residence.

I'm glad you're son straightened his head out. And the premies or exes or returning drifters come here and spend as much time as they need.

Some of the original posters are still here and influence the board to a certain degree. However the agenda is always the same. And the agenda is really quite simple. To use this environment to discuss, reveal, review, process, anything and/or everything about our involvement through the years. Do not forget that the cult environment was intentionally isolationistic. Also not to mention that our vocabulary was teeming with loaded language. Giving us convenient double meanings of words. We could talk to the world with our old body but had created a new body (a double) that could justify our perceived experience.

You had some very considerate things to say and I respect your input.

Be well and thank you for sharing your concern,

deborah

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:31:24 (EST)
From: Paranoid-EX
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Re: undefined territory
Message:
Keith,

i am a paranoid ex.
You sound like a premie trying to get your foot in here.

Prove me wrong and give us you real name. If you are that person who is a repected retired coucellor, I am sure you won't mind.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:51:12 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Paranoid-EX
Subject: I share your 'paranoia' actually
Message:
My 'bullshit detector' was screaming when I first read Keith's post. Upon reading it again today I share your suspicions that this may well be a premie trying another tact.

The post is 'reasonable' and 'authoritative' at first blush, but a second reading makes it obvious that the writer has an agenda.

First, if this person really had a son who was a cult member for years and escaped with the help of EPO, this dad would be jumping up and down with true joy and graditude and would be thanking us profusely, not damning us with faint praise. That's only human nature.

His agenda is to 'warn us away' from the 'anti-cult.' How many times have we heard this bullshit before? He and his colleagues all agree. So yeah, tell us your credentials and those of your buddies before we are encouraged to accept your premise, Keith.

If you are real Keith, email me at the above address. I keep confidences very well, ask anyone here. Or get someone here to vouch for you. Otherwise you are history, my friend.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:44:29 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I share your 'paranoia' actually
Message:
Like I said Gerry, seems like a 'clever' scam to me. The whole point of'Keiths' post is to influence the ever increasing number of people using EPO and the FORUM to STOP doing so!!

Comes across as fake baloney to me, as soon as I read it. I'd bet it's a premie. Maybe even a premie with instructions from you-know-who.

Could be wrong of course but with his 'son' involved and with the help of EPO etc mentioned AND with his line of work, you'd think he'd provide some real contact and proof. The post is coated with sugar but contains arsenic.

No, as far as I can see at this point, 'Keith' wants to diminish the activity( active/lurking) of the forum. Well that's what my bullshit detector tells me. It's not ALWAYS right but......

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:57:48 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: PS ...especially
Message:
You have to remember, only recently at the anniversary event in Nottingham, M said 'He doesn't mind losing a few battles but he WILL win the war' and he was referring to his detractors.

Now, only a little while after Nottingham, M is streamlining the outer, physical vestiges of the cult to almost nothing (content with the psychological hold he has, providing also a good revenue can be worked out). Therefore his 'nothing' website and all his other external stuff show no sign of ANYTHING offensive to the outside world (French authorities and everywhere actually).

Now if only M can silence us here (a bit of a problem because it just gets more popular).....he's tried (or his fanatic followers have) the bad cop routine (CAC, hacking etc) and that didn't work ,so what's left? The good cop routine. Remember, lies and revisionism mean nothing to him, so anything goes.

Yes we have to be open to people and not get TOO hung up on infiltration but it also helps to be vigilant and wary of more lies and revisionism, however it's used !

Dermot the paranoid :)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:27 (EST)
From: paranoid ex
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Very well expressed
Message:
I wish I had your writing skills.

Paranoid Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: paranoid ex
Subject: Hey fellas, how 'bout this line:
Message:
Yet, from the analyses of my colleagues, I must conclude that if one's goal is to be free of the guru's monkey trap, then after realizing the facts, a sensible person must gradually wean oneself from the psychological clutches apparent in a reverse mode of animosity, too (however clearly understandable, and for which I sympathize).

Here our boy uses some of our own 'jargon' (monkey trap) which we all subconsciously (or otherwise) recognize and feel 'kinship.' Yes, nicely done. Rapport established by this point.

Then in the same breath, Keith says after 'realizing the facts' (what facts Keith baby?) 'a sensible person must gradually wean oneself from the psychological clutches apparent in a reverse mode of animosity...'

Yes y'all you are in the dreaded 'psychological clutches' of the evil 'animosity' reverse mode of the cult of the anti-guru theology. Now be sensible folks and wean your silly asses offa this stuff.

What crap. If we saved his boy any time out of the cult this dude should be hallaluia'ing bigtime and sendin' both me and John big fat Paypal donations.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:30:49 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Easy for you to say, Keith, but...
Message:
The fact is that you and your wife may have had more to do with your son's decision to join the cult in the first place than you are willing to admit. The things he was running from at that time will now be snapping at his heels. Ask a holocaust victim to get over it. We enlisted in Concentration Camp 101.

Some cult members who post here actually suffered long-term ill effects from malnutrition at the hands of the cult. The niggardly meals in the ashram were dangerously low in protein.

At the very least, avid premies (PWKs nowadays) display Stockholm syndrome during their time in the cult and concentration-camp victim fallout afterwards.

You are deluded to think that your son is over it, if, in fact, your story is true at all. We tried to erase ourselves. A person doesn't just snap back after 25 plus years of this external and self-inflicted abuse.

Of course, on the other hand, you do sound somewhat like the shrink I met shortly after exiting the Lard's Whirled of Knowledge!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:29:18 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Re: undefined territory
Message:
Thank you very much Keith for stopping by and offering your well considered observations! What might not be apparent to the casual or occasional viewer is just how freeing the act of engaging in (selective)discussions on this Board is. In the short time that I have been posting here I have had many of my pre-conceived notions regarding 'spirituality' meditation, and most certainly Maharaji, challenged and I have found profound encouragement in the company of fellow travellers. There is a board for 'recent ex-ers' which is more sensitive and supportive apparently, but your advice for professional help and guidance is welcome and encouraged (by me at least) - with the caveat that the professional help have some kind of experience dealing with cults, conditioning, and the like.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:56:53 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Keith
Subject: Dear Keith
Message:
Dear Keith,

Thank you for your thoughtful and caring post. I agree with most all of what you've said. Before reading the rest of what I have to say to you, you might want to read my journey, which is posted under my real name -- Marianne Bachers. Having that information will give you some context for my comments.

For regular readers -- I am about to restate information about my past which you've read before...

I was involved in the cult from 1972 - 1976, when I was 16 to 20. I lived in the ashram for a year. I went to Millennium. I was a committed devotee of M both in and out of the ashram. When I left in 1976, I thought I left the whole thing behind after counselling and going to law school. The first case I was involved in after passing the California bar was as defense co-counsel in the Larry Layton trial -- the only criminal case in the US which dealt with the mass suicide in Jonestown and the assassination of Congressman Leo Ryan. I got hired to work on the case because of my experience with DLM/EV. I was alarmed to see the similarities between the way Peoples Temple was run and how DLM was run, as well as the similarities between Jim Jones and Maharaji.

For the last 15 years, my legal practice has been devoted to representing people on death row in California in the last stages of review of their cases. My life is devoted to saving people from execution. I struggle with life, death, compassion, revenge, love, hate, mental illness, resilience, on a daily basis. If anything, compassion is the compass which guides my life.

In 1999, I found EPO. I have been an active and vocal participant ever since. Keith, if you only read the forum for a short while, or check in once in a blue moon, depending on what's happening, you might think that there's a vein a nastiness here. Every once in a while, there is. The forum is a fluid place with many different voices, and people in many different places emotionally and intellectually. When someone seems to be really out there in their posts, someone or two or three will typically pipe up and encourage that person to get help, either on the forum or privately in email. No one who posts here sees the forum as a substitute for therapy.

When seething anger or fury erupt at M, it's usually a healthy response to the feelings we were forced to bottle up as good devotees. Violence or the incitment to violence is not tolerated. It is the antithesis of what we stand for. But sharing intense feelings is fine.

Sometimes premies come here and disrupt the forum. We get mad about that and fight back. Did you know that premies created a web site called Citizens Against Cyberstalking and named many of us as cyberstalkers because we spoke out against M and the cult? I was one of the people who was falsely accused of criminal activity on this anonymous site.

I continue to participate here to support people who just find the site and are leaving or are dealing with issues left unresolved by their involvement. Also, I participate because the cult has not compensated Abi Bray, who as a child was sexually abused by one of the cult's 'saints'. I am here to support others and to speak out about decades old wrongs that need to be righted.

I hope this gives you some insight into why some of us choose to remain and participate long after we've left the cult behind.

Regards, Marianne Bachers

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:47:39 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks Keith
Message:
Thank you for your respectful and caring post. I feel you are sincere in your assesments and, because of that, I will reread your post and glean what may be useful. There are many reasons that people post here. Foremost for myself is a need to put into clear perspective exactly what those many years of involvement with a guru were all about.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:26:35 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Re: undefined territory indeed
Message:
it seems that some people are still trapped; they are defining themselves in reactive and negative terms, within the anti definitions and limitations of the anti-guru theology

Melting this down a little we get: people are defining themselves in terms of 'anti guru theology.'

One first must accept there is anything 'theological' about deconstructing cult beliefs about gurus. Then you have to stretch to the point that people (presumably the posters here) are 'identifying' with this 'theology.' This is very shaky grounds and I was not surprised when this led to that tired old saw 'move on, get on with your life.' Ho hum.

You almost sound like a cult apologist and not someone whose son might well still be in a cult if not for us people who can't move on.

Sorry just my thoughts at the moment...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:42:00 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Agreed Ggerry, 'clever' scam [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:13:05 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: I agree keith.. thankyou
Message:
the culture of ex-premiedom can be a deceptive trap.. I am not full of the desire for revenge.. but that I have shared this journey, from P to Ex with some remarkable people is something I shall always be grateful for.

There are some wonderful thinkers here - and extreme and dominant points of view tend to polarise things into FOR and AGAINST - when life is so much subtle than that.

Thankyou for posting.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:35:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Yes, you're so right, Loaf
Message:
It IS a bit extreme to think Maharaji was a callow fraud. Don't you remember that smile of his? ...sigh
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:28:28 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and you are so right jim
Message:
always
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:35:02 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I once was lost...
Message:
I once was lost,
but now I'm found,
was blind,
but now I see.

Anth the Ex.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:29:42 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Today is my B-day. Happy new year!!!!!!!!
Message:
Hi Dog,

I don't know. It hurt. But I can still feel happiness. A burden has been removed from my back, but love didn't leave my heart. I'm alive, I'm free.
Did you read 'The Teacher of Wisdom' from Oscar Wilde? Well, I think exes could be like the one in the story, who lost the perfect knowledge of God, to gain the perfect love of God. So beautiful!

A long time ago I was crying until I was exhausted after reading this poem, longing for whom I couldn't see, neither understand, whose place inside of me, nothing, nobody could fill. I was blind, but He found the way to easy my pain, fulfilling my dream, with a dream.

But now was my time to wake up and make the right choice. Can you hear me? Do you exist? Hey! I have my heart back! And you know what? It's filled! Thanks!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:43:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Happy birthday, Sulla
Message:
and may you have many more. Of course they will be happier than before now that we are freeeeee. Wheeee!
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:43:02 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks! You made my day...
Message:
Thanks Pat, you made my day. Now I can leave and get a life outside this forum. At least for today.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:11:17 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Please define an 'ex' - okay
Message:
Hi Dog, I can only speak for myself but here goes. For my first ten years in the cult I was definitely a premie and never entertained any doubts about the purity of the master. By 1983, I had begun to entertain so many doubts that I should have have become an ex-premie. If I had left at that time, I am sure that I would be an extremely bitter ex-premie because of having fresh memories of the cult rubbish I had swallowed for ten years. I would definitely have blamed Rawat.

But, being the idiot that I am, I blamed the premies for creating a cult and I stifled my doubts about the oily little businessman from Hardwar and had nothing to do with any other premies but reinvented Rawat in my own mind to take into account his obvious shortcomings. And I lived in that twilight zone of making constant excuses for Rawat for the next 17 or 18 years. So, unfortunately I cannot blame Rawat. I can only blame my own lack of integrity and courage for continuing the charade with him.

I could easily have become just another one of the tens of thousands of former premies but I made a decision in 2000 that changed all that. I stopped being a spaced-out fringe premie. Since I had been a regular donor for 28 years, I was invited to participate in the local premie team. That year of seeing how this immoral and creepy cult operated up close turned me into an ex-premie.

Almost, but not quite. I decided that I would post on the forum as an ''un-premie.'' I could not bring myself to be so antagonistic to Rawat as the old-timers here because I could not blame Rawat only but had to accept my own complicity. Somewhere in the course of reading and posting here, I realized that my mind had really been filled with a lot of lies and nonsense by Rawat. My resentment of him grew with my growing realization of just how unethical he really is and the CAC attacks completely confirmed my status as an ex-premie.

An ex-premie is someone who realizes that Rawat is a really nasty piece of work, a greedy, shallow man concerned only with material goods and his own wealth and pleasure and is totally devoid of any sort of adult responsibility or concern for others.

An ex-premie want's Rawat to apologize for misleading premies, lying to them and amassing an enormous fortune at their expense. An ex-premie wants other premies to hear the other side of the story of the ugly, mentally-deformed little conman behind the curtain of carefully edited videos and schmaltzy stage appearances.

Right now, Dog, you are probably a former premie not an ex. But once you begin to doubt the purity of the master and walk away, the further you get from him the more obvious his deceitfulness and immorality become until it eventually dawns on you that the man is a dangerous lunatic. That's when you become an ex-premie.

As I've said before, it could really help a lot of fringe fence-sitters to go back into the cult and begin to see exactly how secretive, creepy and insane the cult is and to then realize that it is that way because of the person who created it.

No matter what you call yourself, Dog, I'm just pleased that at least you are beginning to walk your own walk because that walk will take you away from bondage to Mayaraji towards real freedom. I wish you the very best in untangling the mess that Rawat wove.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: First you had to have been a premie
Message:
Your problem, Dog, is that you live in this no-man's land where you never really trusted Maharaji, put up all sorts of filters to screen out whatever you weren't interested in and thus, in my respectful view, were never really a premie. If Maharaji said 'jump' you actually pretended he wasn't talking to you.

Now, what was your question again?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:58:59 (EST)
From: Depuity Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Very glib, but seriously Jim
Message:
Jim,

Interesting point, but for the last 25 years or so most people with K would have considered me a premie. I certainly defined myself as one. However, is a premie simply a “lover of truth” (the inner experience of meditation) or is a premie someone who buys into whole cosmology, with for example, with Bal Bagwan Ji as an incarnation of Jesus, Bhole Ji as Shiva, and Marolyn as the Divine Mother of the entire Universe. True, I never bought into that stuff. Couldn’t bring myself to. Never clicked!

For me K was always a way to help me get in touch with my soul and make me a better person. You would probably think I failed miserably in that regard, but that’s what K was and always has been for me. A technology to help me get in touch with a deeper part of my being so I can cope. I never felt comfortable with all that “lotus feet” stuff but I have always valued the experience of meditation and I am still grateful to M that I have it.

So, is an “ex” someone who:
- thinks M is full of shit, hates K, and no longer practices
- thinks M is full of shit, but still loves K, and continues to practice
- is an atheist/humanist, who still practices, but no longer believes in a higher power
- has joined an established religion and continues to practice K in the context of that religion
- loves K, continues to practice, but keeps away from Elan Vital
- loves K, continues to practice, but continues to hang around and watch videos
- loves K, continues to practice, and still sees M as LOTU
- values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M.

The reason I asked the question, “What is an ex,” is because if you define an ex as someone who “values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M,” then I guess I’d be an ex. But if you define it loosely as simply a “lover of truth,” then I’d still be a premie.

Your thoughts on this Jim.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:50:17 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Depuity Dog
Subject: Re: seriously
Message:
You give these choices along a continuum:

is an 'ex' someone who:
- thinks M is full of shit, hates K, and no longer practices
I'd say >yes

- thinks M is full of shit, but still loves K, and continues to practice
I'd say yes

- is an atheist/humanist, who still practices, but no longer believes in a higher power
I'd say yes

- has joined an established religion and continues to practice K in the context of that religion
I'd say yes


---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---
--
- loves K, continues to practice, but keeps away from Elan Vital
this is the beginning of the doubtful zone. if they still hold maharaji above reproach, no, they are not an ex yet.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---
--
- loves K, continues to practice, but continues to hang around and watch videos
definitely not exed

- loves K, continues to practice, and still sees M as LOTU
definitely not ex

- values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M.
depends on how deep the reservations about maharaji go.
if they can't leave him and still cling to the hope or fear that he is Somebody, no, definitely not an ex

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:32:23 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Depuity Dog
Subject: Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim
Message:
Dog,

In my not so humble opinion, a person who 'values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M' is not an 'ex' -- maybe on the verge of being an ex but not quite. I think your 'thinks M is full of shit, but still loves K, and continues to practice' might apply.

I thought your inclusion of 'is an atheist/humanist, who still practices, but no longer believes in a higher power' was interesting -- which 'higher power' do you mean?

I'd love to know where the definition of 'premie' truly came from -- is it one of those watered down Hindi words that M used to mean what he wanted it to mean, or would anyone well-versed in Hindi give the same definition or even know the origin and definition of the word. I tend to think that if you still have the need to use that term to define yourself -- then you are not yet an 'ex.'

My definition of 'ex' is someone who has 'been there, done that and bought the tee shirt' and is now ready to move on and stand on their own two feet, acknowledging that whatever peace there is in their lives has mostly to do with their own efforts and abilities.

Sorry, I'd go into this more but my kids just emerged dripping wet from the tub and I have to go catch them now.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:43:06 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Depuity Dog
Subject: Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim
Message:
... is a premie someone who buys into whole cosmology, with for example, with Bal Bagwan Ji as an incarnation of Jesus, Bhole Ji as Shiva, and Marolyn as the Divine Mother of the entire Universe. True, I never bought into that stuff. Couldn’t bring myself to. Never clicked!
You forgot to mention that you do believe Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, though, didn't you? Otherwise, you would have grabbed the techniques and left. Why listen keep listening to the old Latin teacher with the same verb declentions year after year? (Maharaji does say, 'The message is the same--blah, bhah, blah!') hehehehehehehe
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:41:51 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Good point Gail
Message:
... is a premie someone who buys into whole cosmology, with for example, with Bal Bagwan Ji as an incarnation of Jesus, Bhole Ji as Shiva, and Marolyn as the Divine Mother of the entire Universe. True, I never bought into that stuff. Couldn’t bring myself to. Never clicked!
You forgot to mention that you do believe Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, though, didn't you? Otherwise, you would have grabbed the techniques and left. Why listen keep listening to the old Latin teacher with the same verb declentions year after year? (Maharaji does say, 'The message is the same--blah, bhah, blah!') hehehehehehehe


---

Once the Holy Family thing fell apart (maybe even before) I always had difficulty taking the LOTU thing seriously. Why do I keep going to videos and programs? M inspires me to go within and use the techniques. I'm not going to be inspired to go within by watching TV or films. On the contrary they tell me go 'out.'

Buy this and you will be happy. Oh really? Too jaded to buy that!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:57:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: How did you survive 1977-1985???
Message:
Did you just ignore what Maharaji said, over and over and over? Did you think he was just kidding when he said you have to devote to him and surrender to him and serve him? That wouldn't be inspiring to what you thought it was all about.

And if that was just lies, and you were fortunate not to believe his lies, why would you believe what he says now?

When I stopped believing he was God, he was no longer inspiring, that's for sure. I have a feeling you believe more about M than you say, or you are a bit revisionist in what you once believed. Like Gail said, if it was just the techniques, you would have split with them, because he wasn't telling you to just "go inside" for at least a decade there.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:17:58 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Remember the Dog Story?
Message:
Remember when Maharaji talked about chaining an elephant (and his pet dog)? If you chain them when they're small, they will believe they are prisoners and won't try to escape later when they are bigger and stronger. Meanwhile, he was busy chaining us, Dawg. Surrender to the holy lotus feet. Surrender to goomraji, now (he would bellow). So, because we didn't think much of ourselves or our lives--we did, sort of! Remember when he pranced around and pretended to be the Lord. He did pretend that, didn't he, Dawg?

What sort of teacher pretends to be something he's not? Imagine learning brain surgery techniques from a manicurist masquerading as a brain surgeon! Do you get my point. The fact that he has revised his history should be enough for you to question MJ's veracity and real purpose, n'est pas?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:07:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Depuity Dog
Subject: Real question: what is a premie?
Message:
The best way to approach the question, Dog, is to determine what a premie is. Once you do, anyone who stops being one of those is an ex. Simple logic.

So what's a premie to you? To me it was someone who accepted Maharaji as their guru which meant trusting him. You, Dog, don't ever have to worry about becoming an ex. That'd be impossible. It'd be like divorcing someone you never married.

So what does that make you anyway? Well, a 'Kinda Premie' of course! Thus, the road is open to you to become a Kinda Ex'

Does that help?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:33:51 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Real question: what is a premie?
Message:
Very funny Jim!

Been meditating for 27 years and I’m a 'kinda premie.' Rather than attacking me why not answer my question. Perhaps there are different kinds of premies, all the way from church-ladies to the fringe types who received K and ran.

I trusted M when it came to meditation related issues. I did not take to heart his advice on what to eat, how to exercise, how to dress, where to live, who to hang out with, what to do for a living. As an ashram premie you were subjected to different kinds of pressures and 'satsang' than I was. We had a different experience of the 70s.

I might have not have trusted M implicitly as you did but I do trust the inner experience of meditation or Spirit. I’ve always decided what is right for me and my family. That’s probably why I’m not as pissed off about M as you are.

And why should I follow your definition of premie? IMO I am a premie when it comes to being a “lover of truth.” Instead of a 'kinda premie' how about defining me as a general, non-specific, generic, standard, nonexclusive, or universal premie?

Seriously, if it is any consolation to you I have definitely changed my opinion of M after reading EPO and the Forum. I just don’t want ex’es to throw out the baby (i.e. their experience of meditation) with the bath water (i.e. everything else). IMO you are an ex only when you turn against the experience of meditation.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:40:22 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Real question: what is a premie??
Message:
I trusted M when it came to meditation related issues. I did not take to heart his advice on what to eat, how to exercise, how to dress, where to live, who to hang out with, what to do for a living. As an ashram premie you were subjected to different kinds of pressures and 'satsang' than I was. We had a different experience of the 70s.

If you were a (real) premie in the '70s and 80s (and now into the '90s and the 21st century in a different fashion), there was no escaping what Maharaji was saying about how it is one has the experience of Knowledge. It's about devotion. About surrender. About grace. Maharaji was going to establish peace in this world and those who were able were to move into the ashram. If you couldn't or wouldn't then you lived in a 'premie-house' aspiring to be an ashramite or you lived a dedicated life as a 'householder'. If this trip was real for you then you took it seriously. If Maharaji was Lord or Master or Satguru and you valued the 'inner' experience it wasn't simply a matter of sitting back on your sofa and deciding which of his agyas made sense to you. It just didn't work that way.

Jim and I have the advantage of actually knowing who you are in real life. We know that over a twenty five year period you never went to any programs outside your hometown environment, with perhaps one exception. You never donated any money. You didn't do any service. As a premie you toyed with a succession of new-agey philosophies like TM, Psychocybernetics, est, the Forum (what est became), Silva Mind Control, Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP), Dick Sutphen (subliminal tapes) and whatever it was you were describing to Jim a while ago on the Forum where everthing turned all shimmery. Anyways, there is the temptation to deduce that knowledge and maharaji is really just another one of a long line of new age trips that you've dallied in. Even though you have the skinny on the goo-meister you still have been going regularly to video events and finding him inspiring.

Further down the page, Joy made a comment to Zoloft (who I think is Auguste/Roger - you know) which was as follows:

Why don't you just come right out and say it - that you were the one that got it all along and we were the sad deluded fools for falling for all the devotion in the first place? Get real, Zoloft

That kinda says it for me. The difference is the actual degree to which you took it seriously - not the degree of self-congratulatory discrimination that you feel that you exercised over us punters. In essence I feel that you are engaging in a bit of revisionism regarding yourself.

Ex-premie? Like Jim says you had to be a premie (and all that entailed) before you can become an ex. At least as far as EPO and the forum is concerned. If you only had a Master that you selectively listened to, there just isn't that much to ex from. Which is also why I was incensed at you calling posters whiners. You have to walk a mile in someone's shoes before you start dispensing advice - at least in this corner of cyberville. Time to hang up yer holster, Deputy.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:18:41 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Gotta jump in here!
Message:
Hi DD,

You said: 'IMO you are an ex only when you turn against the experience of meditation.'

I don't get this. You can't turn against the actual experience of meditation, because it is you, if it's anything worthwhile. And it is undeniable, as Jim says right below this post, that Maharaji-as-god-in-a-bod WAS the meditation in the particular cult we were in, despite lip service to something called 'Knowledge.'

I have found various types of meditation quite powerful, before, during, and particularly AFTER my cult involvement with MJ. The particular Radha Soami techniques that MJ happened to package for the West as the ultimate knowledge were just that - a random piece of a technology.This is detailed in the many articles and links about Radha Soami on EPO. I guess if MJ's 'Knowledge' initiation was the first (or last) meditation you experienced, then it might become imprinted, gosling style, as the 'truth coming from him.' But you must know that breath meditation is practiced worldwide, and didn't come from him. Don't you? This is really basic, but if you gloss over this one, then all kinds of absurdities take shape (as many of us have experienced).

What we mean by being exes is that we are not only people who used to be 'premies' in the sense meant by the cult and its leader (i.e. devoted followers of a teacher who said and advised specific things), BUT ALSO people who have thought through that involvement in the light of our experience or later information, and deliberately walked away from it. From a cultic involvement with a leader we now know to be dishonest. Not from some experience inside ourselves.

So, being an ex is different from just being a 'former' premie, in that it implies that we have taken a stand. For me, it's not a stand about resisting and fighting MJ, and certainly not 'meditation,' but about supporting and offering my energy to the process of freedom and self-empowerment. However, for many of us who 'gave our lives,' the process did and does involve saying 'no' to something, and to somebody, more specifically.

I totally get that, since you didn't go the whole hog like some of us, it's a whole different kettle of fish for you.

And one more thing: it seems to me that by mixing in the generic meaning of the word 'premie,' (i.e. lover of truth) with the context in which we use it here, you are being a bit disingenuous. What we mean when we say we are ex-premies is that we are ex-members of a cult that uses(d) that name for its members, and we definitely feel we love truth.

All love to you in your process,

Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:46:25 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Love this, Disculta ! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:46:55 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM*****
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:29:44 (EST)
From: Deborah who agrees
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM***** [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:04:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Here's what you never got, Dog
Message:
Maharaji WAS the meditation.

Think arti ....

Meditation begins in the form of our master....

The whole point, if you swollowed it, was that Maharaji was the 'Holy Name'. He was your breath, your soul, your everything. So, the sincere devotee had no choice but to follow his ever word and wish as if it was his own.

Frankly, Dog, you were so damn far from that game it's hard to know if you really even understand what I'm talking about. Yes, you went to satsang, programs, lived with premies, all that, but you never bought in.

So, you like the guru's meditation techniques? Fine. But don't say you were a premie because ....

hey why not Maharaji himself define the term? You know what he would have said about your being a premie back when he was touting his full love /devotion / surrender trip? He did talk about people like you and he would say that -- get this -- you weren't a premie. Hell I bet you were even at some of THOSE satsangs but, obviously, didn't 'get it'.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:45:03 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Here's what you never got, Dog
Message:
Maybe you are right Jim. I guess I preferred to look for G-d in Spirit instead of a concept in Malibu. I write here to defend K, and I have no right to tell you how to feel. We just see things differently, thats all.

Have you ever wondered why I continue to post here? My posting here is out of a genuine desire to help. I see a lot of people on EPO suffering and it bothers me. I see many ex’s 'stuck in their story' who could still benefit from meditation.

I see a lot of superstitious claptrap about Maharaji being the source of the experience of K. I say put that 'magical' thinking away and use K to wipe the slate clean. Use the techniques to empower yourself and better the world. The techniques are yours, and if you want to use them without M, believe me, they will still work.

I want to say, meditate and empty your self.
I want to say, take what you like and leave the rest.
I want to say, live and let live.
Everything happens for a reason and a purpose and it serves us.
Whatever happens, take responsibility.
Live in Spirit and put the past into the past.
The only thing getting in your way is you.

As you said once, 'The best revenge is to live well and be happy.'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:40:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks but no thanks
Message:
Dog,

K is fake.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:01:18 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You stepped in your own stuff, Dog
Message:
Dog, you say: 'My posting here is out of a genuine desire to help. I see a lot of people on EPO suffering and it bothers me. I see many ex’s 'stuck in their story' who could still benefit from meditation.'

Man, are you full of it. Or what? How the hell do you know who would benefit from what? Hun? Are you a miniguru? I guess if you were to consider suicide it would be by jumping off your ego onto your I.Q., the distant between the two being enough to kill anyone.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:09:33 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: You stepped in your own stuff, Dog
Message:
OTS,

The Spirit is mentioned in all religions. By focussing on the breath one can quiet the mind. You know, peace? Duh! We are always breathing and it's a good centering device that can bring calm.

Remember the old Eagles lyric 'Take it easy, take it easy, don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy.' Breath and mindfullness can help with that. You know the expression, 'Take a breather?' You should try it some time.

So you think I'm full of it. Just giving what I consider to be helpful advice to people who I see who are hurting. If you don't like my advice then don't take it.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:31:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You are insufferably trite
Message:
Dog,

You're cutting the cake with a very dull knife. 'Take a breather'? What's next, 'Have a nice day'?

You take such comfort in 'all religions' but don't you think that all those religions could have been wrong about some things? How many understood the world was round? Any?

Aw, forget it. You always were unable to see through the banality and hokiness of shit. Like the time you got your whole household into Norman Vincent Peale's 'How to Win Friends and Influnce People' workshops.

CORNY!

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:13:21 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, that's Dale Carnegie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:42:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Even worse! :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:16 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Elementary
Message:
An ex is someone who thinks Maharaji's full of shit. At least, that's what defines this ex.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:29:42 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Indefinable. Definitely. (nt)
Message:
Indefinable. Definitely. (nt)
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:02:18 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: but seriously -
Message:
Dep, I'll work on my definition of what it means to me to be an ex, if you'll work on yours.

You are an ex by now, aren't you?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:43:22 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The mental bond with MAHARAJI
Message:
Why was I for so long, 26 years tied up to Maharaji? I just found myself asking why, once more. I see that my relationship with Maharaji was one of such a dependency and as it has been said many times before here, he entraps you along the road to “enlightenment” to create a dependency of him, and he does it in such a way that you don’t notice how he does it. Nevertheless, even that he tries hard to tell people that it's an individual experience, 'about you', for you, etc. the truth is that in all his videos/programs he emphasizes that without the master you cannot get “there”, so, it is not really an individual experience if a person needs him to have it, is it? Freedom?

As a video librarian I had to learn the content of each video to help in the propagation process. If a person had questions I had to know which video would have answered them. I heard so, so much and what I remember from that? I remember well the main point and that is that if a person doesn’t feel some type of attachment, devotion toward the master “knowledge is not working”. Could I have just walked away on my own, or was my mind bonded, trapped? Can a person simply awake one day and leave the cult ? I doubt it. One of maharaji’s teachings is that you need to stay in touch with him after receiving the meditation techniques, and that without the Grace of the master you cannot experience Knowledge, so, can you leave easily? A person needs to stay because “You need to be reminded” by HIM, you cannot do it alone, and if you are a sincere student you listen to him as much as you can, perpetuating the need of him by listening from him how much you need him, bla,bla,bla….

I take responsabilty to a point but if the teacher who sets the rules of the “game”; I had no saying.

So, there was a mental bond and I depended on him to take me “there”. Blind faith? My mind was absorbed with being a “good premie”. I was wondering what you experience as a premie in a daily basis was with respect to that bond. Did you think about Maharaji during the day a lot? Didn’t you get to the point (in your devotion) that thinking about anything else but him/K seemed a lost of time? How bad was your mind affected while you where in the cult? Did you have mental conflicts understanding at times that being a premie didn’t make any sense? Did you wonder about Maharaji’s contradictions in his speeches and if you did, what did you think of them?

MAHARAJI IS THE LEADER OF A CULT

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:32:47 (EST)
From: James BOND
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: The mental bond with MAHARAJI
Message:
That's just where your problem lies. You try to have a 'bond' with
Mahraji. that's not the point. You have a bond with yourself, only.
Maharaji asks you to stay in touch with him just like any teacher,
if you want to learn something.
It's not because you put on your skis that you glide down the slopes
smoothly. You need the ski teacher, even if you have the slope, the
snow and the skis. What's wrong with that. How stupid to say that
you have to 'think' about your ski teacher to progress in skiing.
That's not what is being asked. Mahraji has never asked you to think
of him. On the contrary. thinking about Mahraji won't bring you
anything. But Maharaji showed you something inside of you and when
you stay in touch with that, than you clearly understand the value
of what you have been connected with one day, it's very simple.
When you experience that experience, you automatically are thankful.
That's not dependency, it's natural. what's wrong with being thankful.
It's a sweet experience. It's a dignifying experience. It's a human
experience to be thankful. You're just afraid of admitting that you
feel something you would like to thank somebody for, but your pride
forbids you to thank, because you think that thanking is degrading.
One day, you'll learn.

till then

byby

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:44:20 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: James BOND
Subject: Re: The mental bond with MAHARAJI
Message:
Dear Mr Bond

I think you must have missed something. If only it were that simple! When did you receive the Knowledge? Because if you received it more than a few years ago, you are being extremely disingenuous. Have you ever heard of the word 'revisionism'? Many, many of us here remember Maharaji as asking us to do quite a bit more than 'stay in touch'. Did you not know this?

All the best, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 06:16:32 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: James BOND
Subject: Re: The mental bond with MAHARAJI
Message:
Hi 007,

maybe you still have the license to kill, but life is better without this license. And maybe one time you will be ashamed about believing your own words.

Every generation of premies have their own new version of Maharaji and what they are sopposed to think about the right way.
One time maybe you are out of time and it was your way to act and speak that Satgurus mission failed. False teachers will always fail.

There are too many people who practised his teachings over more than 25 years, the power is on the side of those who are couraged enough to see that there are too many lies envolved and that this is against basic human behaviour. Oh I forgot Maharaji is not bound to that he can to whatever he wants to do, he can act like a arrogant rich person and ha never has to give anyrational explenation.

have a nice time 007..............ciao wolfie

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:19:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: James BOND
Subject: WRONG, Wrong, and Wrong...
Message:
That's just where your problem lies. You try to have a 'bond' with
Mahraji. that's not the point. You have a bond with yourself, only.
Maharaji asks you to stay in touch with him just like any teacher,
if you want to learn something.
It's not because you put on your skis that you glide down the slopes
smoothly. You need the ski teacher, even if you have the slope, the
snow and the skis. What's wrong with that. How stupid to say that
you have to 'think' about your ski teacher to progress in skiing.
That's not what is being asked. Mahraji has never asked you to think
of him. On the contrary. thinking about Mahraji won't bring you
anything. But Maharaji showed you something inside of you and when
you stay in touch with that, than you clearly understand the value
of what you have been connected with one day, it's very simple.
When you experience that experience, you automatically are thankful.
That's not dependency, it's natural. what's wrong with being thankful.
It's a sweet experience. It's a dignifying experience. It's a human
experience to be thankful. You're just afraid of admitting that you
feel something you would like to thank somebody for, but your pride
forbids you to thank, because you think that thanking is degrading.
One day, you'll learn.

till then

byby


---

********

The bond that Maharaji asks for is total devotion to him:

a. physically (you must keep in touch--go to see him and watch his videos);

b. follow his direction explicitly (formerly known as agya and euphemistically has been called 'give knowledge a fair chance');

c. give him money (it used to be called tithing, now it's gratitude and particpation); and

d. kiss his feet it you so desire.

There is much much more to following maharaji than to take a ski lession. Take it from me, I live in one of Vermont's finest ski resort areas.

Don't give ''satsang'' here. You're wrong.

Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:15:45 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Lot of clarity in your insights, Silvia
Message:
Maybe dependency is (perhaps on a sub-conscious level) what a lot of premies really WANT!

No matter how long it takes each of us to wake up and to extract ourselves from the Goo's sticky little hold, the important point is that we're out NOW! I've found that 'though resentment about the past is to some extent a natural reaction, it eventually passes - if you can let it go. And it sounds to me that you're managing to come out of that 26 years of brainwashing remarkably well. It's an experience that, in its early stages, can't be easy.

You owe yourself a pat on the back.

(no, not you, Conlon);)

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:56:19 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: bad affairs
Message:
Hi,

like your report. Sometimes I think we just were too sincere. Maybe I'm still too sincere. We tried to be good premies. It's easier to manipulate too sincere people, than the ones who take it a little bit more easy. It is so funny and not only funny, I can get angry too about this whole Mahaaffair. I hope for my friends who are still completly in 'his service' will find the way out like you and me. EPO is a big help to draw the whole picture. Every voice who left the cult is a sign of hope.

28 years 26 years ......but slowly we will realize it's about his Ego.............ciao wolfie

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:13:07 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Too sincere
Message:
We tried to be good premies. It's easier to manipulate too sincere people, than the ones who take it a little bit more easy.

Well said wolfie. I think that having a good sense of humor, general irreverance and healthy cynicism saved me from being trapped further. Of course I was sincere and felt my devotion deeply and earnestly. However, I think I must have understood early on that it was all a play and we were actors in it. The road company of SatGuru Goes West was fun but the script was written in disappearing ink.

Sure, I beat myself up from time to time for not being totally committed like some of the more devout. But as I later saw, their devotion was rewarded with neglect and abuse. On first viewing of the forum, I couldn't sort out what all the upset was about. But as I read about ashram closings, suicides and more, I could see that others had been affected more than I.

One criticism of EPO and the forum is that we never gave K a chance so it didn't work for us. Not true. In fact, many here gave it too much of a chance, took it very literally and seriously and were damaged as a result. We were encouraged and harangued to be sincere but I'm glad I was able to retain my sense of humor through it all.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:14:50 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Too sincere
Message:
Hi Richard,

the ashram closing was the first time, I tried to explain it to myself, and for me it was more a proof that Maharaji was not into money, why he should close down his own finacial basis. To read on EPO that it was the opposite made sense to me. Things are mostely more complex as we think. The fact is none gave a satisfying answer about the ashram closing. Because there was no good answer. Funny thing is, a befriended couple got divorced 8 weeks before the ahsram were closed because they decided to serve their Lord in the ashram. I think they lived in the ashram for 4 weeks and then it was over.

I for myself tried to live my life devoted to the Lord. For a short time I was in an ashram (73), but I realized it's too much against my nature, maybe I was too much a snop. Too much bad food and too much work all the time and too hard beds and cold meditation rooms.

Yeah the road company of Satguru Goes West was fun too but the pressure was so high that we created the fun for us otherwise we would have had a too hard time on that road. The standard was high and expencive.
I never understood this, only in that aspect that Maha is ths king of kings, so please my Lord let me work in your garden this is honour enough for a simple soul like me. Only one look in the face of satguru can bring you salvation.

Maha has changed his image so many times and this created a lot confusione. There stillwill be those you drive with him drunk on a winding road. But not me and you. I prefer now to walk on my own feet instead driving in a luxury car with a meditation teacher on the stirring wheel memorizing the time when he was God driving a car without petrol and functional breaks. Yeah premies Maharaji can do things like that cause he is not bound tothe material laws.

ciao Rich ....need a break.....sometimes it's funny but somtimes I can get angry and frustrated how stupid and sincere I was. Too much sincerity is a part of being weak, that was a saying of my grandmother.

ciao .....wolfie

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 16:10:26 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Re: Too sincere - LOL
Message:
Too much sincerity is a part of being weak, that was a saying of my grandmother.

Very well said by your grandmother and by you, too.

Take care,
R

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 11:54:21 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject:
Message:
Hi,

like your report. Sometimes I think we just were too sincere. Maybe I'm still too sincere. We tried to be good premies. It's easier to manipulate too sincere people, than the ones who take it a little bit more easy. It is so funny and not only funny, I can get angry too about this whole Mahaaffair. I hope for my friends who are still completly in 'his service' will find the way out like you and me. EPO is a big help to draw the whole picture. Every voice who left the cult is a sign of hope.

28 years 26 years ......but slowly we will realize it's about his Ego.............ciao wolfie
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 03:10:48 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jargon
Message:
Dear New Friends,
May I suggest that a 'Legend' be posted somewhere.

Where by all could navigate their way through explanations such as

OT = Off the central Topic = Maharaji
Hindu Terminology thet we 'Lifers' use.

Could someone with more energy and comprehension complete this?

You know what I mean.
Just a General walk through guide and translation of terms.

I Know that when i first came here, basic navigational skills seemed daunting.

Nevertheless, i seemed to have figured it out.

But maybe, it could be too much for someone experiecing way too much already.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:38:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Jargon
Message:
Hi Bai Ji,

I've provided a link to the EPO glossary. As far as instructions about how to use the board, we used to have one, but we've moved a lot in the past year...Forum 5, 6, and 7.

So, I hope at least the glossary helps.

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/glossary.htm
[ EPO Glossary of Terms ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:26:20 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynth (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 02:11:36 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: All
Subject: women according to M, '72, for Marianne
Message:
Below, in the photo exchange, I wrote about finding a copy of the 1976 newspaper Light Reading, published in Denver. Now I'm tearing through boxes of DLM artifacts and I just found a soft bound book 'Divine Ligh't with M in his Krishna suit on the cover. It says Guru Puja Special on a banner across the botton right edge.

This book, which I think I've seen on EPO, is a treasure-trove of M calling himself God, telling us all to 'Lay flat on His Feet and say 'Alright, I surrender myself to you.'

From a satsang entitled 'He Created Everything' given in Johannesburg, 3rd May, 1972, (page 213) M says 'You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it.'

And then he makes a comparison to Rolls Royces. Already, 1972, he's obsessed with Rolls.

There you have it. M is God, God came through a woman, and because He came through a woman, He comes in the form of a man, to 'equalise.' Yeah, tthat's be fair.....

Not only is he a liar, but he has no freaking sense of logic. M has to be the WORST rhetorician alive.

All these artifacts have me so wired, I'll never go to sleep tonight.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:55:15 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Standard Hindu Boilerplate
Message:
That's what M's schtick about women is. Generic Hindu justification for the oppression of women. Countless Hindu gurus have said the same thing, often with a smarmy smug expression.

All about how great women are cuz they give birth...hey, even God-in-the-flesh (ME! sez Maharaj Ji) has to come through a birth canal.

The purpose of this proclamation of the fabulosity of the feminine gender? Obviously, as a cover for the unstated belief in women's inferiority in all other non-parenting non-cooking areas of human endeavor.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michell
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
That would be a great quote to have in EPO's quote section,

but I need the exact quote and reference in order to make it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:26:38 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michell
Subject: Re: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
Do you want me to post it hear? If you give me your email address and promise to keep me anonymous, I'll send it to you that way. Either way is fine.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:35:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: housemum
Subject: Re: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
Which way you like.
Of course I won't out you here or anywhere else, and lose my credibility ....

Jean-Michel

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:40:33 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Housemum PLEASE
Message:
Dear JM, Tell me exactly what you want and if it's not too long, I'll put it here for others' enjoyment (waves of nausea). Otherwise I'll send it to you via email. (This stuff actually makes me physically ill--no joke)
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:57 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: As you like
Message:
1st the whole text/paragraph

Then the name/date/#/page of the publication.

Your comments if you like, or anybody else's ......

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:06:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: This should go on EPO
Message:
'You see, God gives women a great thing, because He takes birth from women. And to equalise this He comes in the human frame of a man, and that's what we don't understand. But in my heart, personally I have great respect for women because even God has to come through a woman. So He mustn't favour women but takes a man's body. You see? He equalises! Understand? Now women mustn't be proud of this and shouldn't waste their time just being proud of it. They must take the privilege of it.'

This should be saved on EPO, iff it isn't already there. I remember that quote about women. Right it's all about the equality of women. Maharaji the feminist.

Plus, Maharaji is clearly claiming to be God here, pointing out once again that Maharaji is a big, fat liar in claiming that he never did that.

This should go on EPO someplace. J-M is it there already?

Housemum, don't throw all that crap away. There could be valuable historical crap in there that people should know about.

As I think you know, at one point Maharaji gave 'agya' for people to destroy all that incriminating, embarrassing stuff. Apparently that agya wasn't too successful.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:24:53 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm ill from my discoveries
Message:
Hi Joe, Thank the stars I wasn't around for the search and destroy agya. I have a box of artifacts that kept me up til 3am. I have my DLM identification card from '74! And xeroxed copies of letters that M wrote. And copies of local premie newspapers--filled with satsang.

In this book Divine Light, which is over 250 pages, he makes it VERY clear that he is God. I am nauseous from reading this stuff last night. I remember BELIEVING it.

The other scary memory I had was that I was given some of M's hair from his premie-barber, and I actually put it in locket and wore it constantly. I found the locket...with the hair....I'm going to throw up now....

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:25 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: I'm ill from my discoveries
Message:
Hi Housemum,

If it makes you ill, then save it, but put it away for a while--there'e no need to torture yourself. I also have that big fat book, lots of audio tape from the 70s and some hairs too.

But, please don't throw anything away because there may be some stuff that Jean-Michel doesn't have that you do have that could be sent to him.

When you feel up to it, maybe you could make an inventory of your m stuff.

Above all, be good to yourself,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:20:14 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks. Very helpful reassurance (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:39:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: EPO's quote section's here
Message:
M's most famous quotes> and Ev's archives.

Don't forget your barf bag ......
[
EV's archives and M's quotes ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:32:36 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: J-M Get the Whole Book!!
Message:
Yes, a barf bag would be in order upon finding some of that hair. Is it greasy? Yuck.

What do the letters say?

J-M is the master at getting documents onto the website, so if they are good, he can probably just put them up there. That quote is especially great. Remember that satsang he gave about why we should be vegetarian? See, animals that eat meat, lick water, and those who should be vegetarian, suck water. Since humans 'suck' they should be vegetarian. Plus, M said seeds are 'dead' and okay to eat. He was so full of shit, but he was right about one thing, he does suck.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also, J-M
Message:
I think that Durga Ji letter asking for money to get Maharaji the Aston Martin should also go someplace on EPO. I remember going out and buying a Birthday card with my Ashram allowance and sending cash in a card to the P.O. Box Durga Ji told us about in Malibu.

I also recall there was some kind of 'phone feed' in which Durga Ji made a pitch to get M the car for his birthday. She said he 'really wanted that car.' Later, a film came out that showed him driving the car in the hills of Malibu. It made us so blissed out. ())

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:06:35 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Also, J-M
Message:
Yep, yep, yep. Remember that one, I do! She said instead of us all going out and spending ten dollars on a tie that Maharaji didn't need, we could put our money together and get him the car he reeeeeeally wanted. Voila! One Astin Martin coming right up.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:41:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Also, J-M
Message:
I remeber that one, and the birthday movie of the party at the residence ....

Anbody having the documents ?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:40:15 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: banned videos
Message:
I think I've got the birthday party movie on video. Also Eyes of Faith, Power of Love, Holi,
Satguru Has Come
and Lord Of The Universe (India 1971, not the Millennium73 documentary). They are grainy copies but an interesting bit of DLM archaeology.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:09:15 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Viewing the banned movies
Message:
Satguru Has Come? You have that? I love that film with the cool female, English narrator talking about how 'all the Mahaaaatmas prosTRATED bifo hm.'

What is the 'Holi' movie? And what is 'Eyes of Faith?'

Isn't 'Power of Love' that Australian movie in which M gives what seems like endless satsang and then there is an, equally endless, darshan line sequence?

Do you have "Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?"

These must be seen. Can they be copied and distributed?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:32:20 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, about videos
Message:
Don't have Who Is GM.
Power of Love is the one set in Australia, bouncy boat ride, darshan line, etc.
Holi is combined US and Spain holi play and talk from around 1983.
Eyes of Faith was one of those theme videos that picked up on a single phrase 'eyes of faith' and expanded it to a whole video. Sort of an Eyes of Tammy Faye for premies.
Also have Long Beach 1997 which was the end of the line for myself and others.

The rare ones are grainy old versions from pre book burning era. I'll take a look at what I have and send you the tapes you want.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:58:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Bless you Richard
Message:
I've seen Long Beach, thank you very much. Barf.

But Satguru Has Come, and the Holi one would be great.

From what era is 'Eyes of Faith?'

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:38:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: These are rare films, Joe...
Message:
I particularly remember ''Power of Love.'' It's one of the first appearances that Maharaji made with Durga Ji in Melbourne, Aust. I distinctly remember it because it was shown a lot in 1975 when I became an aspirant. He gives satsang about confusion being like going to the bottom of the ocean and the sand kicking up, and ya wait awhile and then everything is clear and beautiful.

I clearly remember Durga Ji, sitting beside him at his feet dressed in a sari, (a nice one) and her eyes were dilated to the max.

Anyone who has these films please keep them.

I also remember as an aspirant watching the movie after Premlata was born...name of film???...he's sitting on a beige couch with his arm around Marolyn holding Premlata, with big windows behind--I assume a view of the pacific.

Yikes...that was a memory rush...
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:34:45 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: 'the vine of love'?
Message:
the movie with the soundtrack of that girl songing in a real high soprano voice ' child, child of the morning...
weave a vine of love
tie all our hearts
to our Lord, please?
and Thank You Maharaji, for this child...'

i never owned any of the videos i wish i had. i drifted away before the video era got underway fill swing, and didnt own a VCR until just a coupla years ago.
shoot--think I oughta blow some dough on the VISIONS fire sale before theyre all gone??

nahhh- I'd rather pay you guys to dupe them for me.

hey--it IS my past, yah know. I didnt live another one.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 22:16:47 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: These are rare films, Joe...
Message:
Some of that footage was shot in the ballroom of the Chevron Hotel in Kings Cross, Sydney.

A couple of independent filmmakers were trying to sneak footage on their super 8 but later had it stolen, mysteriously.

We had a birthday party for Marolyn in another hotel and I think some of the footage is in the film, too. M loved the film and Oz filmmakers were flavour of the month but the next one, Keep On Trucking, bombed.

Nevertheless, Greg Dee was, and is, a talented filmmaker.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:36:25 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: McDuck, didn't you co write..
Message:
Premlata Lullaby with Lindsay Field. I remember an old song that had the words 'Vine of Love' = Premlata in it.

Premlata Lullaby
You're the light in your father's eye
You're the reason the angels cry
Premlata Lullaby

Don't mean to embarrass you, I have written some doozies myself!
Love Bai

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:49:03 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: McDuck, didn't you co write..
Message:
Geez, yes, I did, and you obviously know too much about me. I think it got canned because Premlata was not pronounced properly. I've already confessed to Surdas The Gardener, but I never expected Premlata Lullaby to lodge in anyone's memory.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:54:57 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: I loved Surdas the Gardener...
Message:
and also remember harbouring a huge crush on Malcolm Davey, way back when I was a baby Bai Ji...

Ha Ha Ha how embarrassment.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:13:17 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: I loved Surdas the Gardener...
Message:
There were a lot of women who harboured a huge crush on Malcolm Davey. From 1979 to 1989, I was married to one of his girlfriends.
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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 20:58:50 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Ouch..Unrequited love yet again...(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:01:46 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: 'I Must Have That Man'
Message:
Can you tell us anything about the making of this Aussie award winner? 'I Must Have That Man' starring M. Padarthanand based on a Shakespear play I think? I think our delightful friend Malcom D might have had a hand in it. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 17:32:15 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: 'I Must Have That Man'
Message:
Yes, that was Malcolm and his brother Graeme. More their own imagination than Shakespeare, I think. It was set in a mansion in Sydney and also starred Peter Edge, who had a lively and interesting history with DLM. The soundtrack had some great music, including a Louis Armstrong number, I think.

Their earlier animated film 'High As A Kite' featured the Moody Blues song of the same name and was decidedly psychedelic rather than ashramic. Before they became premies, they also did a short film based on Huxley's 'Doors Of Perception', and I saw that at a film festival in 1970.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:22:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Ten Ton Tiny Takes Knowledge
Message:
Malcom Davey is certainly a prince among men and a real fine creative film maker.

I tagged along as a helper bee when he made the hilarious propgation film 'Ten Ton Tiny Takes Knowledge'. It was basically a day in the life of Tiny, portrayed con gusto by Gregory (a.k.a. Tiny) Rhineheart. Tiny was close to three hundred pounds and the ends as Tiny, having received K, sits to meditate and literally floats up and sails away. There were dancing girls dressed in long white dresses singing 'knowledge, knowledge, knowledge of the soul'.

If you're lurking here Malcom, a big howdy from the guy you always called Southern Man.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:44:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Housemum does....
Message:
She has a copy of the letter from Durga Ji asking for cash to buy M the car.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:17 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Housemum's fear and loathing
Message:
I'm deciding how to go about this. The problem I'm having is emotional(no joke). As long as I talk/write about my premie days in the abstract, I'm fine. When I start getting close to it, I get terrified. Anybody know what I'm talking about? Or is just me...
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:31:40 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: Housemum's fear and loathing
Message:
All your faith in a freindly life that has an awareness of you and
a relationship with you is seemingly threatened.

No need to distress about that one, just put it aside and work on the separating of your programming that it was m.
Then you will find yourself able to recognise that what was valid for you in that relationship WAS valid and is not at all threatened by this mask removal of someone who was not even the one you were having the relationship with.
Or more simpler, perhaps, life was willing to have a relationship with you in the way you were. What kindness and comfort you looked for and recieved in this life was given IN SPITE of our religious
thinking.

What deep relationship you have with your freindly life still there for you to have.
Imagine a kid growing up in the sun yung moon cult, that kids sincerety WILL be rewarded although life would prefer that moon was out of the way as he is only limiting the relationship.
Same with out guru lord. He limited us.
He was in the way frankly.
This freeing is a blessing only if you sail on afterward.
Life is more complex than we may wish, but the simple answer is that you can keep it as simple as loving yourself, loving others, and loving the concious god freind that is playing a bit of a rough game here.
There is a struggle here on earth, in the humans, and you can win the game by decideing to try to love despite the failings of yourself and
others.
No need to waste time waiting to come back to that one, just engage
in that and later, over time, you will find yourself having understanding of what you went through.
Dont wait till THAT process is over to start back in with loving life.

You WILL understand.
Just give yourself time, and trust that information will clear things up.
The smartest approach would be to jump over the mess and re-engage yourself with your previous loving of life and your companionship
with the freindly life. Now you can be open of course to letting
mistakes and wrongs go as they will, but again, you do NOT have to wait till all the dust clears to get back on track.

It is not mandatory to break apart. I dont reccomend it.
Try to compartmentalize this nightmare. Have time to try to figure it out, when you are here on the forum, and then make a complete break with the rest of your day so that the rest of your day is good and whole (as much as it can be with murphys law)

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:41:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: Housemum's fear and loathing
Message:
Mum, I gave boxes and boxes of divine trash away the day after I decided to leave the cult a year ago because I could not bear having it in my house. I still have a few videos but, even after a year out of it, I cannot bring myself to look at them.

My fear and loathing seems to be a reaction to the strong emotions I had invested in Rawat. It is my horror at those unspoken but deep bonds that induce nausea in me. I'm sorry you had to feel it. I don't yet have the stomach for it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:24:39 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: I think I know what you mean ...
Message:
I don't know how long it's been since you were a premie, Housemum, but sometimes it's best to give it a few years before risking contact with cult propaganda material like that. It can be contagious! And the anger it can unleash! (not that there's anything wrong in letting yourself go and expressing that anger, of course - in fact it can be quite therapeutic, if the people around you understand what's going on, and are supportive).

Here's wishing you well,

Chris

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:23:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Oh yes.....
Message:
I left the cult in 1983, went to an ex-cult group with Joy and did some therapy. By about 1986, I didn't think about it at all.

Fast forward to 1997, and I hear about EPO. So much time had passed, I thought I had nothing more than idle curiosity about what people I knew were doing, and what was happening with the cult in the 90s.

So, I started posting. First, I was terrified to even post. And I couldn't figure out why. Then when that pissed me off and I chose to ignore the fears, and I started to think and talk about my cult past, all those icky premie fears came up in my gut. I was literally nauseous, and I had trouble sleeping a couple of nights, etc. But it went away pretty fast. I realized that the programming was extremely deep. And like you said, the reactions I had were completely irrational and entirely emotional. Mostly what I felt was FEAR. And I also realized that FEAR was the predominate, or at least the strongest emotion in the cult, and that I had called it LOVE back then. Right, I called it LOVE. I saw again how twisted it all was, and I still had scars from it.

So, it isn't just you. I think it's a very normal experience.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:27:00 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Oh yes.....
Message:
Thanks Joe. I've done lots of therapy in the 25 years since I exited, so I'm shocked that this box of stuff has me sitting here in front of my computer, feeling shaky and paralyzed. Gulp...
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:35:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: The thing is.....
Message:
Now that all this time has passed, you have distance, and you are a completely different person now than you were in the cult, with so much more of a sense of who you are. So, I think it's really healthy to bring it up into the light of day, out of the dark corners of the psyche, and kill it.

Those 'fears' that J-M listed below were so ingrained in us by Maharaji. I really think they weren't just beliefs, they became a part of our emotional make up. When I felt those fears come up again, I think I was dealing with the vestages of all that.

Housemum, love your analysis of all this. Also love the way you put your self into it. It's powerful stuff. Hugs to you.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:13:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This is valuable stuff
Message:
Please email me about this

jmkahn@club-internet.fr

Needs to be carefully scanned, or sent by snailmail.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:22:32 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M....
Message:
Don't you already have that big book, the Guru Puja Special?

I thought you told me you did.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:29:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think I own the book
Message:
and should find the quotes.

Just need the pages .....

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:42:47 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM, pg numbers
Message:
The quote about women is from Divine Light, Vol 1 No. 2, satsang entitled 'He Created Everything' pages 202-214. The specific quote I cited is on page 213.

If you need it, I can snail mail this stuff to you. Let me know.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:19:06 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Re: JM, pg numbers
Message:
OK, I'll check the book today.

BUT you'll have to mail me Marolyn's letter about the Aston Martin's purchase ...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:18:21 (EST)
From: housemum
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: This is valuable stuff
Message:
I will email you. I'm fighting this overwhelming urge to disappear. Just to give you all a live-cam look into my psyche, my impulse is to put the box away, go back to my life, and never do the forum again. Clearly I have internalized an amazingly intense censor in regard to m. Give me some time to deal with these feelings. I'm going to do it.
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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:34:53 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: housemum
Subject: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Well, as Joe has said, fear was certainly a MAJOR part of the sub-conscious programming. And it can go deep into a person's psyche.

But always remember - the choice is yours. Whether to pack it all away and bury it again, or to face that fear and confront the effect it has on your freedom to be the person YOU want yourself to be.

And if there really is such a thing as divine retribution - be assured that M should be getting his ... with interest! I don't think the real Mr God would want to be impersonated by such a shady, greedy little character as Mr Goo!.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 01:27:15 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
housemum, here's a tale from my early exiting period that might shed some--ahem--light?
---
on what you're feeling now:
as it began to sink in , how much of my long held rituals and practices were nothing but futile clinging and empty repetition of things I had learned to do while a 'premie', either believing they would make me 'holier' or things i was doing in some weird notion of trying to demonstrate to anyonlookers how superior 'we were', I began to walk thru my house, especially my closets, and could spot things I absolutely hated havine around, that I realized were nothing like what the real me wanted to have around me.
I got up one day and ruthlessly pulled out all the clothes I had still in my possession that were only in my wardrobe because they had some significance to being a premie--and told my son to take em to the thrift store or chuck em.
a short time after that, I was going thru my bookshelves and opened a cloth jewel box i didnt remember buying, opened it up, and discovered it was a lotus made of austrian crystals. I was ambivalent what to do about it. It was a flashy little tchotchke, allright. I couldnt make up my mind. So I set it in my sunny window to see if the sight of it made me feel good or bad.
Within 24 hours, it shattered itself, just like that. I found it all in pieces the next day, unable to be repaired.
you scientists can say it was the extremes of heat and cold in the window, if you like.
metaphysically, I prefer to see it as a clear sign from Life as to what my decision should be.
Superstitious? ok. probably. But pretty hard to miss the symbolism.

My advice is to face the icky feelings. Confront the pain. Get steely and stare it down.

With time, I have decided to retain some of the things I always liked, and i like them over and above what they meant to me in the cult. Things like all cotton clothing, big yoga whites pants, earthy stuff that doesnt bind, doing yoga when i feel the urge, massage, keeping as peaceful a home as I can, keeping the books that i liked regardless of whether i acquired them as a premie or otherwise...
the first few weeks to months, it was a mishmash. i would find myself humming old One Foundation songs and be rattled, wondering where that came from, but i couldnt shut it up. I would get all tied up in geordian knots, worrying and wondering if i was still a premie who was just having a bout of delusion, or a sane person who was still soaking wet from nearly drowning in 27 years of pretending, and was just letting myself dry out naturally.

but i know this much:
I DID NOT WANT TO GO ANYWHERE NEAR PREMIES OR MAHARAJI. I DID NOT GO RUNNING TO WATCH VIDEOS, OR CALL UP OLD PREMIE FRIENDS AND TRY TO GET THEM TO TALK THE TALK TO MAKE MY DOUBTS GO AWAY. I WAS CLEAR ON THE CERTAINTY THAT I HATED THE CULT AND HATED THE MASTER, AND THAT WE HAD NOTHING IN COMMON ANYMORE, AND SINCE THERE WAS NO WAY IN HELL THAT I WAS GOING TO TURN MORE IN THE DIRECTION HE WAS GOING, THE ONLY WAY WE MIGHT EVER WALK TOGETHER AGAIN WOOULD BE IF HE WERE TO TURN MORE IN THE DIRECTION I WAS GOING.

and i seriously doubt THAT's gonna happen in this lifetime.

Deputy dog asked how do you know if youe an ex. I was going to answer him
'you know youe an ex, when its clear to you that you despise the master and he despises you, that you arent aiming at the same ends anymore, that you wouldnt lift a finger to help him, and you know damned well he wouldn't lift a finger to help you
either. You know it when you go to a program and he is there in person, and you walk out in the midst of his show because the agony in your back, your empty stomach, your sleep deprivation and the value you place upon yourself is higher than the value you can muster for being in the same room with him.
You know you're an ex when no one anywhere in the whole hall deems you fit to speak to, fit to recognize, after 27 years of supposedly knowing one another all over the world, when the barest request to be allowed to sit down someplace can't be met, because everybody else is so officious, important, assigned, and consumed with their niche in the pecking order.
you know you're an ex when you get up before dawn to get to a hall you can walk to from your house, mill around, unable to sit down, for hours past noon, don't get to eat, get kicked out of stall after stall for trying to sit in empty chairs reserved for people who aren't there (and never arrive,) find yourself alienated and repelled by the insidious machinery of issuing Smart Cards, and finally get the ultimate kissoff from the master himself, when he ditches the stage and tells his lackeys to turn on a dvd, of him showing you the same damn techniques you've been doing for 27 years, and he can't even hang around himself to keep you company during it.

that's when you walk out, and go to the nearby outdoor pedestrian mall, go look for your street friends, and tell them how pissed you are and invite them to eat lunch with you. and in looking around at the faces of all these people who aren't premies, who have helped you and whom you have helped again and again, you realize that THESE are your people, that THIS is your life, not that fakery you just left, back there, over your shoulder.

and then on reflection, you remember that you had the same realization after the last program you went to. and the one before that. and the one before that, as well. but you didn't get up and walk out until today, because you still clung on, still held fast, still hoped it would turn around.

but today, you know you're an ex
---
when you don't want him, and you know he doesn't want you, either.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:16:10 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Hi everybody, This is an interesting thread and it echoes something I've been thinking about today......the fear. I was asking myself if I could ever tell anyone the techniques, i.e. my non-premie partner. He asked me the other day what they were, and I said we weren't allowed to reveal them. I KNOW this is ridiculous, but please remember as I told you all before, I'm still in the process of exing. The very thought of telling him or anyone the techniques fills me with abject terror. I KNOW they're on EPO, I know they're all in books, but I just can't say it. It's fear of being eternally damned, and I'm nowhere near shaking it off yet. I guess when I can do it, I'll know the process is over....but till then, the fear is there. I must have absorbed it very deep. Help.......

with love, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:06:42 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: Fear of 'divine' retribution?
Message:
Hi Livia,
I exited out a little over six months, which is not that long ago compared to my uninterupted, continuous involvement since 1974.
Shortly after exiting, I showed the techniques to my two teenagers, who were ready to ask for the knowledge until I accidently ended up on EPO. I felt completely like a traitor doing this. At first I just told them to read the techniques, but they were confused. In retrospect it seems silly, but at the time it unnerved me. The last program I attended was a year ago Easter in Santa Monica. Maharaji unleashed the autoknowledge as a review, trying it out on us. The beginning has him saying 'the only thing I ask, is give knowledge a fair chance, stay in touch, and don't reveal these techniques to anyone.' In that darkened auditorium with his voice booming around our heads it was more intense than wedding vows.

Now, I don't feel so crazed by it. I kept good my promise for all those long years, but what promise was I even keeping? That's what I ask myself now. He made it all a fraud, from beginning to end. It's taken all these months, with daily picking apart the cult bit by bit, putting together the pieces of the puzzle that everyone who posts here brings to the picture. Several times I think, ah finally, the picture is complete, then lo and behold, someone posts a snippet of information that blows apart the life I thought was real. I see, yet once again, the picture was/is bigger than I imagined.

It's probably one of the hardest things, because revealing those techniques for me was like crossing a sacred line, and there was no going back. Knowledge was sacred to me for nearly three decades. I wasn't smart enough to see through the fraud on my own. Elan Vital and occasionally premies, drove me nuts with the politics and power plays, but I never allowed myself the slightest inkling that Maharaji had anything to do with any of this. How naive. I, of all people, should have known better. The CEO always sets the tone for the company. The proverbial trickledown affect. And revealing those techniques directly challenge the psyche in believing his omnipresence, as the lord incarnate. That is the deepest seed of all planted in us. Those techniques are his stock and trade. Without them, what does he have? Like Sir Dave has pointed out, they are for sale at a local grocery store in England for a few pounds. Kind of cuts Maharaji out of the contribution loop.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:55:58 (EST)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Livia
Subject: I understand your fear
Message:
Dear Livia,

I received Knowledge in 1972, walked away from the cult in '79, but never revealed the techniques to anybody until the summer of '98, when I demonstrated them to my therapist in the privacy of his office. Here are some excerpts from my 1998 Journal:

'Premies would say that I received Knowledge but I am not practicing the Knowledge. Knowledge doesn't 'work' except by the grace of the Guru, and I am no longer a devotee; so even if I practiced the techniques, I wouldn't experience the bliss. Now I have gone a step further; I have revealed the techniques to a non-premie. I keep waiting for lightning to strike me dead.

Am I reverberating? Yes. Majorly. Chills and fever. First I'm cold to the bone, covered with goose-bumps, shivering in bed with the blankets piled on, curled up in a fetal position; and the next thing I know I'm drenched in sweat.

Am I angry at God? Guru Maharaj Ji was God Incarnate to me and I am definitely angry at HIM...
Sound-bites from the seventies are echoing in my head: 'Guru is greater than God because he can show you God.'
I have disobeyed Agya. I think I'm going to throw up.
'I can show you God.'
'Knowledge without devotion is dry. Devotion without Knowledge is blind.'
'This is why, time and again, Guru Maharaj Ji has to come.'
'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? The lover of your soul.'
'Maharaj Ji never loses a premie.'

The next morning, I was able to sit and do Tong-len practice for five minutes. That's all I could do. I was sad all day. More than sad: heartbroken. Went for a walk, couldn't shake the feeling. How to explain to anyone but another ex-premie how much I miss that intensity of living, as painful as it could be? Is this what being grown-up is like? Where did the magic go? Who the hell have I become? Where is the passion? I spend my days working at remaining calm. And my heart aches. I feel so isolated...

By the afternoon of the third day, I was feeling a lot of anger but was able to use the energy to get some things accomplished. That night, I practiced So-hung and Nectar to settle into concentrating, and then did Mai-tri for the rest of my sitting. Afterwards I wrote,

'I have to learn to accept the validity of the experiences I had in my Hindu Twenties, and incorporate them into my Buddhist Forties. It's a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if I deny what I learned and what I felt during all those years of practicing Knowledge. I need to stop being ashamed of my 'Guru Phase,' and realize that I am still that person, but not only that person...Revealing the techniques affected me profoundly. First I was physically sick, then emotionally sick, and now I am beginning to feel empowered. What next?'

After a week, I was beginning to ask the right questions:
'WHY was it so important never to reveal the techniques? It's a 'Proper Channels' thing. Only an ordained priest can transform bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ; this keeps the power in the Church. Only Mahatmas initiate. They reveal the Knowledge only to those who commit themselves completely to the Guru.
What danger is there in knowing and practicing the techniques without devotion to the Guru? Maybe the only danger is to the Guru, not to the devotee. He loses his power...
What I am destroying is his power over me. I am taking that power for myself. I don't need the Church to experience communion. All I need is the desire for communion.

Revealing the techniques cuts the cord. Not until that moment was I truly on my own. With freedom comes responsibility. I create my own reality. No one else is responsible for what I experience. Now I can create the 'Buddhaverse,' as Robert Thurman calls it, by accepting my responsibility to alleviate the suffering of all sentient beings. I must do it myself. I must not rely on the Guru to do it.
Meditation isn't just for me. It's for all beings everywhere. Premies are 'end-users.' They breathe in love - from Guru Maharaj Ji - and when they breathe out, they give him their suffering. I want to be at one with the source of that love, not a parasite, but a giver. I want to breathe IN the pain of the world, transform it, and breathe it OUT as love...
Can I experience intense, passionate, ecstatic mystical devotion without Guru as catalyst?

My therapist advises me to 'Honor my transgression.'
It is good to transgress a bad law.
It is even good to transgress a good law, If by doing so one achieves a greater good; but one must be willing to suffer the consequences.
It takes courage to deliberately break a bad law, or a good law for a greater good.
Keeping a secret for twenty-six years because I said I would is honorable.
Telling that secret in a safe environment is liberating.

I feel a deep, calm sadness, but I feel connected. And I feel hope.'

Love,
Babs

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 13:13:57 (EST)
From: cq
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Subject: absolute ***BEST OF FORUM***
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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 02:40:16 (EST)
From: PatC
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Subject: Thanks, Babs
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