Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Feb 18, 2002 To: Feb 26, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


PatC -:- Why I keep posting on forum -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:57:30 (EST)
__ la-ex -:- Pat-your teachings resemble the Master -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 19:05:50 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Pat-your teachings trouble the master -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 19:25:11 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- teachings trouble the master -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:42:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Welcome friend of Pat -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 22:47:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Am I a FOP or a PAP ?... or even a FOPAP ? [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 02:55:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hope you're a FOP and one day a PAP -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 13:57:34 (EST)
__ cq -:- they are smart and of the spirit and have woken up -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:37:45 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji and Amar both pilots -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:54:39 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Guess who gets to take over the family biz (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 08:27:45 (EST)
__ janet -:- 'everything but the shuttle' -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 03:55:30 (EST)
__ PatD -:- So that's what the guy's been doing..... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:26:34 (EST)
__ cq -:- so lets hear it for 'Lords of the flys'?(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:40:19 (EST)

Joe -:- Remember Marc Lerner????? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:52:42 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Yes, I remember Marc -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:32:53 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Marc, one of the good guys -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:38:01 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Remember Marc Lerner -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:07:13 (EST)
__ Looks like -:- new age stuff to me -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:00:56 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Kinda easy for you to say -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:04:10 (EST)
__ __ __ This is no different than M -:- i.e. concern for self/selling answers -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:15:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- How many of these Mini M's are there? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:34:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Yes, it is interesting -:- Re: How many of these Mini M's are there? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:51:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why aren't you using a name? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:58:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ RUDE -:- now that is funny [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:10:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- hi RUDE. welcome to the forum -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 04:50:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Who is -:- Martin Gray -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:34:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Like Maharaji? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:21:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ These people will tell you -:- they like seminars -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:35:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well, of course -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:39:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What if he weren't disabled? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:02:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Is it compulsion with you??? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:21:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I stand corrected, Joe -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:28:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks for the apology (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:30:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- A guy like me can't leave home without one [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:32:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Jim, glad to see you're... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:37:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- :) -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 10:49:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mercedes -:- very funny... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 21:37:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:18:38 (EST)

Susan -:- anyone on now watch Court tv -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:20:32 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: anyone on now watch Court tv -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:28:21 (EST)
__ __ Susan -:- Cynthia yes, it is that one -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:33:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Cynthia yes, it is that one -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:35:26 (EST)

The Maharaji of Malibu -:- plucked my feathers; then gutted me -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:42:30 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Well said and -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 06:46:17 (EST)
__ __ Carl -:- Screenplay idea ?? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:50:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- It was Nigel... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:33:13 (EST)
__ __ Bryn -:- Ho Ho Ho. Great posts. -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:25:40 (EST)

Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7: -:- Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 23:24:18 (EST)
__ janet -:- well steve there's 2 sides -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 05:36:16 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Fuck off Steve -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:44:05 (EST)
__ Joe -:- What are you talking about? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:22:07 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Quit telling everyone how they should be and post -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:55:24 (EST)
__ __ Miaow -:- Mud Pies-Look like .... and taste worse()) -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 19:48:33 (EST)
__ Livia -:- Re: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:08:23 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 20:41:08 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- It sounds to me like -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 06:30:15 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Your thorn is removed -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:09:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Your thorn is removed -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:16:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- 'Civility' isn't the problem -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:59:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The forum is YOU, Steve -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:24:32 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Steve, you do belong here -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:08:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Steve, come on now, -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:33:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Over-reaction -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:46:52 (EST)
__ jbsf -:- comment -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:48:23 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- There were more than hints -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:55:12 (EST)
__ __ Lesley -:- Re: comment -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:21:43 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Yes Maharaji is a 'nice guy,' -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:28:14 (EST)
__ __ Bryn -:- This is interesting jbsf -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:14:58 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Hi jbsf -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:52:20 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 03:13:27 (EST)
__ JHB -:- I think truth is our aim here -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:19:56 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Disagree with you, John, and won't budge -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 03:27:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Want to say something about Marmite.. -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:09:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- As my dear departed mother said..... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:42:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Marmite -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:32:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Marmite & Peanut Butter -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:38:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Marmite & Peanut Butter -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:45:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Marmite be wrong... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:51:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Marmite & Peanut Butter -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:50:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Marmite but Pa won't -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:19:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Ya wanna hear gross? (OT) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:45:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That is gross -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 17:30:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I love that you say you're married, Joe... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:54:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vegemite, marmite -:- Yucky, poo po -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:01:14 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I disagree with you about vegemite -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:07:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Actually we agree about vegemiteB) [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:15:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Happy little Vegemite -:- Re: Actually we agree about vegemiteB) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:56:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- G'day, grandpa. I've missed you [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:40:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I meant 'I disagree that;s it's highly debatable'! [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:26:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Vegemite-is that a flea on a vegetarian?(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:17:45 (EST)
__ Or Failing That: With Some Parsley -:- And A Nice White Sauce nt -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 00:15:57 (EST)
__ __ with fava beans and -:- a nice Chianti. ta-ta!-H [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 05:58:06 (EST)

Marianne -:- Brian and Gerry -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 21:01:39 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Brian and Gerry -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 23:21:58 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Brian and Gerry -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 00:52:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- LOLOLOL! Thanks! [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:22:01 (EST)

Marge Large -:- Amaroo Pre Payment -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 19:47:15 (EST)
__ Marge Large -:- I got a confirmation -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:26:55 (EST)
__ __ WMary -:- What if you can't make it...... -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 06:24:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Marge Large -:- No Refund promised -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 13:09:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Using a spellchecker, Quiet? -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 02:00:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marge Large -:- Re: No Refund promised. -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 17:14:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ QUIET IS A -:- TROLL> -:- Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 17:33:17 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- or: 'wham, bam, thank you PAM'? (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:41:58 (EST)
__ cq -:- It's a miracle! -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:25:43 (EST)
__ Thelma the Church lady -:- I suppose I'm chopped liver! -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:29:15 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Here's a Fabulous Tidbit... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:56:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Chianti, wasn't it? /nt -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:39:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well, at least you caught it... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:30:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Right, and also -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:00:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- RegOnline... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:05:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ WhoIs Search shows -:- Re: RegOnline... -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:50:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Do they know -:- they're enabling a cult leader? [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:52:52 (EST)

OTS -:- Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 12:49:45 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Thank you OTS -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 17:44:11 (EST)
__ wolfie -:- Re: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:54:06 (EST)
__ Bai Ji -:- Dearest OTS -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 20:59:41 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Beautiful work, OTS -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 15:49:37 (EST)
__ Livia -:- Re: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:57:48 (EST)
__ Livia -:- Re: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:54:35 (EST)
__ PatC -:- many many thanks, OTS -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:52:43 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: many many thanks, OTS -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 17:31:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Truer words... Cynth -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 17:59:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Truer words... Cynth -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 22:37:41 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Another good one, OTS -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:21:26 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Wonderful post, OTS -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:22:36 (EST)
__ __ J McG -:- I second that emotion -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:25:55 (EST)

cq -:- Do geese see God? (ot) -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 07:34:13 (EST)
__ Bryn -:- Found this palindrome yesterday. ot -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:28:51 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Are we not drawn onward, we few ...? -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:04:20 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Geese mate for life. -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:07:31 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- pssst. Hey, don't tell anyone but -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:12:30 (EST)

a little Satsang -:- from Josef Stalin -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 04:06:46 (EST)
__ PatD -:- That is so heavy (ot) -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 17:22:40 (EST)
__ __ Tim G -:- the 'Right to death' -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 18:37:40 (EST)
__ __ __ PatD -:- What different culture?(ot) -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 19:58:44 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Never heard that story. -:- Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:04:00 (EST)
__ __ J McG -:- It's fiction... (OT) -:- Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:38:00 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:57:30 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why I keep posting on forum
Message:
Yesterday I got a letter from a mutual friend of Francesca's and mine, whom I have not seen in 18 years. He has given me permission to post it on the forum. It is letters like that which keep me posting.

My dear dear Patrick, former Haight neighbor par excellence, with a tart smile and naughtiness written all over you, full of the joy of life and queerdom and a great accent. As Francesca I believe told you by now, I'm out the door, off the fence, and all that good stuff.

Let me thank you deeply and kindly for your great help in exiting late December, early January. Reading the Forum first confused me, shocked me, rubbed me the wrong way, and then more and more, rubbed me the right way and I said yes, yes, yes. These are people I can relate to, they are smart and of the spirit and have woken up just a bit before I started wiping my eyes and taking a peek at the big new world out there.

I don't know how much I'll want to participate in the back and forth of the postings, as I am sucked into it already way beyond the time I have - it's become an addiction, I admit. But for the most part it's been a wonderful collective cyberspace friend and comforter to me during my transition.

When it kinda dawned on me, 'Oh my. THIS is what I have felt for years was so wrong with my life - I had never considered leaving! The answer was hidden all these years under my pillow but I never looked there! Get up and leave! You don't want or need this any more - it's holding you back from your growth, in the name of growth!'

So again, Patrick, really, from the depths of my heart - hooray for you for leading the fray, with humor and conviction and strength and oomph - you all helped me get through a couple of difficult weeks in what felt like record time. I thought it was going to be a sturm und drang drama of Wagnerian proportions - can I? but I can't! but I must! must I? am I going crazy? what will I...'

Nope. It just fell away like an old seed pod or dried up umbilical cord on a cat in the back farm house when I was growing up. This thing that was the lifeline from baby to mommy - when the time was right, she just took out her teeth and cut the damn thing. Then the little baby kittens had these little dried up twig-like things on their belly buttons and they just naturally fell off. So it fell off me, and your midwife skills are absolutely FABULOUS. M'wah! and much love always.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 19:05:50 (EST)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat-your teachings resemble the Master
Message:
Nice to hear that your friend has woken up and begun a new life, as so many of us have.....it's hard to see how a lot of us would have so much valuable insight, information and opportunity to communicate without the internet...once again,many thanks to the
EPO site and all of those who contribute to it...

Funny how he said that 'the answer was there, right under his pillow', isn't it?
I seem to remember someone saying that a long time ago....ironic, isn't it, how many of the things that m used to say about knowledge vs. the world, have now turned around and done a complete 180?

At one time we thought that 'the world' had no life it it....the life was in m's world....
Now it's just the opposite....m's world is a dry, lifeless sham....once premies see it for what it really is and stop waiting for the dream to finally manifest in it, they see it for what it is....

Thanks for posting the e-mail.....

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 19:25:11 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Pat-your teachings trouble the master
Message:
Pat,

Include me in the fan club!
Did you ever read Confederacy of Dunces?
You might really like it.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:42:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: teachings trouble the master
Message:
Well, actually my old pal was not just saying thanks to me but he also mentioned everyone. In fact I just emailed him and said how grateful I was to all you oldtimers here for enlightening me.

Sometimes the forum is as exciting as the early days coming to Rawat, in fact more so because it really is the global village and we are united in a shared history.

Thanks Bill and La-ex, don't forget how much you both helped me.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 22:47:53 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Welcome friend of Pat
Message:
Welcome friend of Pat. Thanks for your observations and for sharing a bit of your story. Please feel welcome to share more of your thoughts when the muses move you. Your words make me realize again what a wonderful community we have.
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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 02:55:29 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Am I a FOP or a PAP ?... or even a FOPAP ? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 13:57:34 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Hope you're a FOP and one day a PAP
Message:
......when you make it to Babylon by the Bay.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:37:45 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: they are smart and of the spirit and have woken up
Message:
'they are smart and of the spirit and have woken up'

whoever wrote (about premiehood) 'it's holding you back from your growth, in the name of growth!'
is one smart cookie, IMO.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:54:39 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji and Amar both pilots
Message:
Although Amar is only a 'student' pilot and Prem Pal seems licensed to fly anything besides the Space Shuttle. Seems Prem passed his physical in January. Doesn't look like Hansie is interested in flying, nor are the girls.

Pilots Database Search Result

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Name : RAWAT, AMAR PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Oct, 2001
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration : Oct, 2004
Pilot Certificates : Student Pilot


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Name : RAWAT, PREM PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Jan, 2002
Class of Medical : 1
Expiration : Jul, 2002
Pilot Certificates : Airline Transport Pilot
Airplane Multiengine Land
Rotorcraft Helicopter Commercial Pilot)
Instrument Helicopter (Commercial Pilot)
Glider (Commercial Pilot)

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 08:27:45 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Guess who gets to take over the family biz (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 03:55:30 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'everything but the shuttle'
Message:
hm. i don't see anything about C-130's, B2 Stealth Bombers, SR-70 Blackbirds or F18 figher jets, there....guess he's not as versatile a pilot as he'd like to believe.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:26:34 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: So that's what the guy's been doing.....
Message:
....all that time we thought he was out on the stump turning on the world to sat chit anand. Pursuing his hobby on remittance money. No wonder he's so pleased with himself when he sits down in front of his audience.

Nice effort Prem,getting all those qualifications together must've taken years & years. Just so you could jet in & hit up the faithful for the fuel bill & the next instruction course & the bigger plane to practice on,so you could keep on visiting the premies to hit them up etc.
Jesus, you are the greatest master. The perfect symmetry of your scam has to be admired.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:40:19 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: so lets hear it for 'Lords of the flys'?(nt)
Message:
so lets hear it for 'Lords of the flys'?(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:52:42 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Remember Marc Lerner?????
Message:
Some US ex-premies may remember Marc Lerner, who was a coordinator at various times in Elan Vital and he was at COLL for some time. He is orginally from Michigan. Anybody who sees his picture on his website will recognize by that glint in his eye that it's the same Marc.

I knew him from COLL, Miami, Chicago and for a short time he and I both lived in the Oakland ashram, both terrorized by Heir Schmitz.

In 1981, Marc was diagnosed with MS and I remember he was practically blind the last time I saw him which would have been around that time. Anyhow, as you can see form the link, Marc has gone on to do good things for himself and others who are dealing with debilitating diseases.

Although he mentions doing meditation for 9 years, (nothing about Maharaji so I guess he must be an ex-premie), he credits dealing with his disability as the defining process of his life.
[ Marc Lerner ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:32:53 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, I remember Marc
Message:
Thanks for that Joe. I'm really glad to see Marc is still among us. It appears that he has learned from his disability and used that insight to help others.

I totally disagree with the anonymous person's allegations in this thread that Marc is a new age money grubber. It really is distasteful to project one's anger at M on anyone else.

As Roger said, Marc is one of the good guys.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:38:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Marc, one of the good guys
Message:
I completely agree. Marc seemed like a real person and had a great sense of humor. I recall around 1981, just before Marc got sick, I was beginning my trajectory out of the cult and was pretty miserable. Marc didn't try to give me the company-line satsang; he just was a friend. I appreciated that, because it was pretty rare in the cult.

I remember also one time a group of us took Mark to a comedy club in San Francisco after he was getting his symptoms. The show had started and it was kind of dark in the club, and I remember Mark held onto the sleeve of my coat so he could find his way to the table. His eyesight was pretty bad at that point.

MS is so weird because it affects people in different ways, and hits them in the prime of life. Marc's first symptoms were in the eyes. I have a neice who was diagnosed at age 25, and it hasn't affected her eyes at all, but it has affected the nerves in her hands and feet. So far, she is completely functional, but it's so unclear how it progresses.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:07:13 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Remember Marc Lerner
Message:
Yes, I remember Marc. He was one of the good people and he looks like he still is now.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:00:56 (EST)
From: Looks like
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: new age stuff to me
Message:
again with the breathing shit
[ Looks new age ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:04:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Looks like
Subject: Kinda easy for you to say
Message:
Don't ya think? After you're disabled for awhile, maybe you could let us all know if what Marc is doing works or not. By the way, who is 'me?' Got a name?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:15:55 (EST)
From: This is no different than M
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: i.e. concern for self/selling answers
Message:
Plan #1 This seminar is designed to maximize individual participation. A 3 day seminar (4 hours a day, a week apart) Seminar cost is $3000 for up to 50 people, plus transportation. Seminar is designed to maximize individual participation.

Plan #2 Hourly Seminars, 1-2 hours long. From your questionnaire, the appropriate seminars will be offered to you. List the amount of time you want to dedicate to these seminars and the number of people expected. Seminar costs are $600/seminar, for up to 50 people, 3 seminar minimum, plus transportation.

Plan #3 One Session Scheduled as a 2-3 hour talk. Cost of seminar is $800 plus transportation.

The smaller the group, the more personalized it can be, with more participation from each person.

For each seminar, you will be responsible for providing the location and the Life Skills printed materials for each person.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:34:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: This is no different than M
Subject: How many of these Mini M's are there?
Message:
I wonder how many of these premie-gurus are actually in business? Here in Canada we've got at least Chris Moon in Nelson, B.C. and Alex Perlman in Toronto. I'm sure there are others but those are just two guys I know who make their living as some sort of new age self-improvement guys. There must be more.

And then there are all the consultants. Gallwey, Apter's crew, there must be tons of people who found a way to make money off some distillation of M's nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:51:38 (EST)
From: Yes, it is interesting
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: How many of these Mini M's are there?
Message:
How many spin-off businesses have come from Prem. Both active cult members and those who have evolved/moved on with no hard feelings. Martin Grey is another one who comes to mind.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:58:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yes, it is interesting
Subject: Why aren't you using a name?
Message:
This is an interesting subject for sure but why aren't you using a name? Don't you know that's a minimal requirement here, one steady, unchanged name, real, fake, whatever, but something that lets other people know who they're talking to. To do otherwise is rude, don't you think?

Anyway, who's Martin Grey?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:10:15 (EST)
From: RUDE
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: now that is funny [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 04:50:20 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: RUDE
Subject: hi RUDE. welcome to the forum
Message:
I guess RUDE must be short for Rudy huh? or Rudyard or Rudolph or something of that nature??
It's a nice name.
ok--
so, RUDE,[do you always want it in all caps? i guess that's ok too we've has some people here who liked all caps. BTDT and so on..]

let's hear your view of this.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:34:40 (EST)
From: Who is
Email: None
To: RUDE
Subject: Martin Gray
Message:
spelling of last name is Gray

-big time East Coast premie and giver of intellectual satsang...had his own following even then
[ Like the Jeffersons from Archie Bunker ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:21:53 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: This is no different than M
Subject: Like Maharaji?
Message:
Please. Just because Maharaji is a fraud, it doesn't mean everyone else is. But perhaps you ought to talk to people who've taken Marc's seminars to see if they are worth anything or not. And again, I'm not sure any of us are in a position to judge.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:35:24 (EST)
From: These people will tell you
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: they like seminars
Message:
Call me cynical(whoever I am)but I would rather observe the seminar giver than the seminar goer. Before I ever again trust anyone who claims they got some dynamite stuff to sell me, personal observation is mandatory. Of course, they're gonna sing the right song in public

---

---

---

Excuse me Mahatma Ji, before I ask for this most sacred of Knowledges(which you will one day call Self-Knowledge), do you think I could hang out with Guru Maharaj Ji(who will one day change his name to Maharaji)for a couple of days?
[ Happy Seminar Goers ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:39:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: These people will tell you
Subject: Well, of course
Message:
Be skeptical, be highly skeptical. On the other hand, don't just write people off, and also their motivations, before you actually know what's going on.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:02:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What if he weren't disabled?
Message:
Joe,

This is from the site:

'How To Use Life Skills

The Life Skills techniques lead you through a simple learning process. Then, by using your own experiences, you can consciously condition your mind to be connected to your inner resources all of the time. Qualities like confidence, self trust and a positive self image become your natural expression. Then you are taught to capture that experience in a 'Trigger', so the habit you created can be connected by a simple word or phrase. When a person faces the threat of death, they use their brains far more than what is normal in their life, but the wisdom is the same. Step out of the limitations of your mind and use your inner resources, but use them to accomplish your goal.'

I just wonder, would you cut the guy this much slack if he weren't apparently a strong survivor of such a terrible illness? I mean, I certainly here you, that it's easy for us to talk being that we haven't walked in his shoes (or on his crutches, I guess). And it does sound like Lerner's a great guy and all that. I don't know. Quite honestly, even if there's no real substance to any of what he's doing, this might be one big placebo lifestyle with wonderful placebo benefits. It sounds terrible but I can imagine that many of the people that come up against this 'Insitute' hesitate expressing too much skepticism simply because of Mark's infirmity. That could get pretty sticky, I can imagine. But when I read stuff like:

'Life Skills is not a belief system like the great religions passed down through history. So no matter what your belief system is, if you were able to go beyond your thoughts and beliefs, you would find the same wisdom of the body, like every other person has. At that depth we find the 'you' that was created by God and in the mind-created reality, we find the 'you' that was created by society. It is possible to connect to that wisdom while living a productive life. We can use our intellect and belief systems and connect to the powerful inner resources we have deep within and do it at the same time.'

I just hear regurgitated satsang. Don't you?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:21:49 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is it compulsion with you???
Message:
I don't think I was cutting Marc any 'slack,' I'm just not has hot to judge things I know nothing about, at least not as much as you are. Here's what Marc said:

In March of 1981, I began the most intensive journey of my life. I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, which later was classified as chronic, progressive multiple sclerosis. At that time I was 80% blind, numb over 40% of my body. I was single, and without a career. I felt as though I was locked in my body and all I could do was explore within. When a person deals with such a trauma, everything they do, think and desire is related to how they deal with their illness. So when I began to volunteer with others in struggle, it helped me deal with my struggle better. In 1982 I began volunteering to help two groups of people. First, I worked with the mentally ill homeless in Santa Monica, and then combat veterans with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). As I began interacting with these people, I shared with them the Life Skill's techniques I developed for myself as I dealt with my illness. I saw what worked for them, then refined the techniques so they were easier to understand. Then, in 1983, I began working with individuals facing a life-threatening illness. No matter who they were, or what their goal, I didn't tell them the 'right' things to do, I taught them how to connect to their inner wisdom. And it was their wisdom that told them the right things. 18 years later, this web site was created. Here, I allow your wisdom to guide you to accomplish any goal you are working on. I graduated college with a Bachelor's degree in Psychology and I studied meditation for about 9 years, but I don't feel that gave my life any credibility. Dealing with Multiple Sclerosis since 1981 has strengthened my connection to life and wisdom and that is what makes me credible. With a chronic, progressive degenerating, disease, I had to teach myself to walk three times, and deal with a life I never expected.

Whatever theories or interpretations Marc puts on what worked for him, I don't believe either you or I are in a position to say whether it works for a disabled person or not because you aren't disabled and haven't tried it. Those who are and have would have some credibility in that regard, unlike either of us.

God Jim, Marc is a good guy, give it a rest, and refrain for once from your compulsive crusade against all that sounds new-agey, especially about something you know absolutely zero. Don't make me sorry I put Marc's picture up. I didn't do it so people would make fun or him.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:28:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I stand corrected, Joe
Message:
I'm so sorry that I actually looked at his site and commented on the apparent satsang spinoff. That's just me and my compulsion, I guess. Apologies all round.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:30:32 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for the apology (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:32:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A guy like me can't leave home without one [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:37:31 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, glad to see you're...
Message:
... progressing very well with A Course in Miracles. Such deep understanding and compassion. Congratulations and, hey, let's go walk on water together some time, OK?

Blessings and may your pure and perfect life force destroy the axis of evil within inside.

Richard, channeling Mugwump the 50,000 year old co-dependant alcoholic

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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 10:49:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: :)
Message:
:)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 21:37:23 (EST)
From: mercedes
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: very funny...
Message:
Richard you are a hoot!!! LOL
Mercedes
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:18:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject:
Message:
I don't think I was cutting Marc any 'slack,' I'm just not has hot to judge things I know nothing about, at least not as much as you are. Here's what Marc said:

In March of 1981, I began the most intensive journey of my life. I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, which later was classified as chronic, progressive multiple sclerosis. At that time I was 80% blind, numb over 40% of my body. I was single, and without a career. I felt as though I was locked in my body and all I could do was explore within. When a person deals with such a trauma, everything they do, think and desire is related to how they deal with their illness. So when I began to volunteer with others in struggle, it helped me deal with my struggle better. In 1982 I began volunteering to help two groups of people. First, I worked with the mentally ill homeless in Santa Monica, and then combat veterans with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). As I began interacting with these people, I shared with them the Life Skill's techniques I developed for myself as I dealt with my illness. I saw what worked for them, then refined the techniques so they were easier to understand. Then, in 1983, I began working with individuals facing a life-threatening illness. No matter who they were, or what their goal, I didn't tell them the 'right' things to do, I taught them how to connect to their inner wisdom. And it was their wisdom that told them the right things. 18 years later, this web site was created. Here, I allow your wisdom to guide you to accomplish any goal you are working on. I graduated college with a Bachelor's degree in Psychology and I studied meditation for about 9 years, but I don't feel that gave my life any credibility. Dealing with Multiple Sclerosis since 1981 has strengthened my connection to life and wisdom and that is what makes me credible. With a chronic, progressive degenerating, disease, I had to teach myself to walk three times, and deal with a life I never expected.

Whatever theories or interpretations Marc puts on what worked for him, I don't believe either you or I are in a position to say whether it works for a disabled person or not because you aren't disabled and haven't tried it. Those who are and have would have some credibility in that regard, unlike either of us.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:20:32 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: All
Subject: anyone on now watch Court tv
Message:
about the Catholic Priest....molested kids over 30 years.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:28:21 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: anyone on now watch Court tv
Message:
Susan,

Shit, I don't get CourtTV on my cable lineup. Is the Boston priest?

There's been quite a bit of news about the Boston Archdiocese in New England lately because of their notoriously bad cover ups and mistreatment of the (adult) children who were abused. They set up a hotline for children molested by priests to call. Yeah, they want to police themselves....Familiar, isn't it?

How are you? Well I hope,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:33:30 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia yes, it is that one
Message:
creepy in the similarity.....decades of abuse

http://www.courttv.com/trials/geoghan/sentencing_ap.html

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:35:26 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Cynthia yes, it is that one
Message:
Hi Susan,

The most recent news I heard about it was the Archbishop refusing to resign or step down. His reason? He wants to keep it in the family.

Double YUCK! Eeek

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:42:30 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu
Email: None
To: All
Subject: plucked my feathers; then gutted me
Message:
Yesterday's Joe Stalin Satsang really set me off. It really described what that slimey, good for nothing, fat turd known as M did. I came to him out of trust that he would fulfil my needs. I bought that he would show me the answer and shelter me. I was a prime candidate to believe I was weak and ignorant, so mouthing those words in our secret oath to him came easy.

So after almost 25 years of thinking he was the one, the savior, where was I. A quick inventory showed I was still waiting to be saved. What had all the effort produced. A longing, a need to be around him even though he was boring and often factually incorrect but he was the man so the problem must be with me.

The problem was with me was the cause of my drifting away. Not until I enterred the world of the internet and discovered EPO did I even consider the fact that I had been conned. I didn't much like that idea, so I continued meditating as a way of trying to turn bad into good. Eventually, I came to accept the fact that meditating wasn't for me. It was a crutch, a shelter from the big bad world.

Sometimes, I think that it may have been easier just not knowing that the malibu maha was/is a fraud. Most of those who have left him either don't know he is or are playing the 'moving on and evolving game' with themselves.

Put the few thousand remaining cult members in a locked room for a couple of days and allow open discussion about their experience. M and the few others who are making out like bandits on this scam could never let this happen.

The end result for me some 28 years after begging for K(now known as Self K)is descibed in the subject heading of this post. I no longer allow Stalin/aka M in my case to be my prison keeper who I am dependent on but to this day, I feel worthless.

If there is anyone out there reading this, who is thinking about getting involved with Mahaturd, the master of sludge and fudge-Don't. The whole trick is packaged differently now but your dependency on M is their primary goal.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 06:46:17 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Well said and
Message:
just imagine this scenario:

Put the Maha and all remaining premies in a large room with no cigarettes, no booze and no drugs and only ''satsang'' and see how long it takes before they all go crazy.

The ''pure'' premies would drive the Maha nuts as he searched through the trash cans for a cigarette end. And the pure premies would completely freak out when they realised just what kind of a man this incarnation of god was.

Of course, all the impure premies would be fighting over cigarette ends or empty beer bottles.

It would only take a couple of days and they'd all be sick of the sight of each other and then they could all come out of the room, ordinary people, the cult a distant memory, a dream they once had.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:50:09 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Screenplay idea ??
Message:
Didn't a similar idea get tossed around a few months ago? :

A Maha-type self-styled divinity flying his plane with a variety of devotees: adoring 'gopis', jaded honchos, a couple of family members, perhaps a non-devotee or two (press people perhaps, maybe an academic).

The plane goes down unnoticed in remote environment (arctic tundra? remote Afghanistan? or lush isle as in 'Castaway'). Radio contact impossible.

Now comes the disturbing reality as we see unvarnished character qualities of the survivors become increasingly apparent and tested in various revealing conflicts with long-held delusions, with each other, and within themselves.

There would need to be plenty of establishing scenes, i.e., the background for the cult mind set. That could take up one-quarter of the plot, and be disturbing enough by itself.

The plot twists are fascinating to consider:

Does M survive or not? Or for how long?
If so, how long does he remain adored?
Does he insist upon deference?
What factions form, when all are dependent upon cooperation for survival, each pulling their own weight?
Who is injured?
What lessons are learned about projecting divinity upon a sadly flawed and morally bankrupt stooge?
What does the stooge learn, if anything?
Do they eventually encounter any other indigenous people?
Do they ever make it back to familiar territory or not?
Loyalties tested when M wants certain (selfish) decisions made that actually threaten the group survival.

Actually, it might be quite convincing if most everyone, even the Maha, demonstrate surprising strengths of character as well as woeful inadequecies at certain points. Basically, M realizes he is a mere mortal, and certain others realize a deepened sense of their humanity, and find the kernal of something akin to divinity or nobility within their previously compromised and co-dependent lives.

There would invariably be an utter cad or two: Some arrogant PAM might get his comeuppance.

First the synopsis, then the screenplay, then Project GreenLight, then the movie, then the hit song, then the full musical, then the opera.

Then the marketing! Lunchbuckets, T-shirts and collectible figurines. Whoopee!

Sort of like 'Lord of the Flies' meets Robinson Crusoe and a little bit of 'Gilligan's Island' and Survivor TV, with an underlying ontological challenge to both conventional and cult-stained thinking.

Casting, anyone?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:33:13 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: It was Nigel...
Message:
who came up with the screenplay idea. Must in the archives somewhere.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:25:40 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Ho Ho Ho. Great posts.
Message:
fgh
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 23:24:18 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Email: catweasel@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect
Message:
The Lord does work in wondrous ways.
- dances with mice
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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 05:36:16 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: well steve there's 2 sides
Message:
reality has proven out that it takes a good cop/bad cop exposure to help people free themselves from the cult world and thinking. What you call the 'animal lower nature' isn't necessarily so. I lilve with 6 animals all day long, up close and personal, and they have no compuctions about displaying exactly what sentiments they feel at an given moment. they don;t have some imposed, imagined notion of superiourity they are trying to conform to; they're just real. and it doesnt make the household degenerate into a pit of hell. it's all commensurate with the circumstances of the moment.
sometimes teeth bared hissing and slashing is completely the right response. and other times, peace and calm prevails. both occur where they are appropriate.
if anything, animal nature is more honest than human nature. don't call it 'lower'.
here the same is true. coddling doesnt make for stronger warriors. getting one's brainwashed myths and sacred cows slaughtered is quite salutory when you wander in here. you get both synmpaticos and hecklers, and both are good for your recovery from the strange world of maharaji.

if a person has reached the point of just not being able to hang out in the premie world anymore, no amount of influence is going to convincthem to return. it just runs too deep. after all, they have already allowed themselves to be snockered for years by the very deepest techniques of persuasion and dissuasion. If those vessels are bginning to give way, and they come here, the bursting of the container is going to increase, not get mended. it's pretty much a one way course. You can't un-know what you know.

and besides, hearing somene here speak of the Infallible One in crude, profane, degrading language for the first time is really liberating. It can be hilarious. I think my two favories are Maharajiavelli and Mao-raji . without those, I never would have belly laughted my way past the taboos that were so deeply planted in me not to doubt.

so your appeal to civilize this place is understandable, but not realistic. you are in the Bargaining Stage of the exiting process. a la Kubler Ross's stages of grief. You can accept this much of the presented reality, but not that part over there. you wanna negotiate.

just keep coming. this is a temporary phase.
the universe and the world are big enough to contain nice , and not-nice. the lotus needs the muck. the flowers need the shit. sometimes the cat licks you, and sometimes it scratches you. sometimes you kiss, and sometimes you kick.
all of it is necessary. you want the whole. you can't b complete without it.

remember animals don't live by religion. they don't try to imagine some ideal and attempt to live to it.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 20:44:05 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: Fuck off Steve
Message:
Phew, I see you already have. That lets me off the hook. Now I won't have to shoot myself.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:22:07 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: What are you talking about?
Message:
Steve,

While you have some good thoughts in that post, what is it, exactly you are talking about? What is this 'standard of civility' you keep referring to? Reading your post I feel I entered in the middle of a conversation and have no idea what the context is. Can you explain?

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:55:24 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: Quit telling everyone how they should be and post
Message:
Dear Steve,

In the utmost regard and respect for you, with total civility and respect towards you, a few things you wrote made me gag.

For instance:

'If we are honest with ourselves, most of us will have to admit that there were many times that we truly did feel a strong connection, a strong bond to each other.'

Nope, I thought for the most part, most premies were losers and crazy. Besides being irresponsible and unreliable.

'It is very easy to hate. It is incredibly easy to criticize. It requires virtually no effort at all to tear down, to ridicule and to rip others apart. These things require no greatness of soul, no magnanimity of spirit, no courage or bravery of heart. But to resist the cowardly urges of our lower natures, to make at least some effort to strive towards making peace, love and brotherhood a reality in our lives, this highest of human aspirations is timeless and is as true today as it was when we were blindly following M.'

Making peace, love and brotherhood a reality and also the highest human aspiration? Well, that's not my highest aspiration and BTY, what exactly have you been smoking? Peace and love and brotherhood have never existed to any great degree in the human race. It's by our egos and intellect that great strides are mostly made. Science, math, medicine to name a few. What, you want to try and give Osama the peace, love and brotherhood routine? Do you have a specific issue with hate you witnessed here? Criticism? Who has been ripped apart here? Ridiculed? Are you referring to the trolls who like to visit? Come on Steve, out with it, quit dancing around what's really bugging you.
What do you mean by my lower nature? I don't buy that. I am what I am. All of my nature is inherant, important, and valid. I'm not fragmented. I have many aspects that make up my 'nature.' Is the sexual aspect of my nature also considered 'lower'? How about hunger?

'The importance of performing this service in an atmosphere dominated by civility and respect is so important that a new standard needs to be established that has as its long range goal zero tolerance for meanness, cruelty, abusive argumentativeness, and the kind of aggressive baiting and grilling of each other that may perhaps be acceptable in a court of law but that is totally unacceptable in the F7 virtual hospital ward for exes recovering from the wounds inflicted by M's wars against their hearts, their integrity and their self-esteem.'

Spare me the touchy feely stuff. If ex's and premies that post here don't like hearing the raw, unedited, reality then perhaps this is not the place for them. And who are you to tell me that I have to have respect for some individual? You can respect everyone who comes in here Steve, including the likes of CatWeasel and some other really low-self esteem people. Whatever you do, don't say anything mean, don't hurt their feelings! And the integrity issue, Maharaji loved to try and push the limits with what he got people to do but in actuality premies did what they wanted to at that time. If someone with damaged integrity sees this as an issue then it's up to that person to mend their own fences.

Did I detect a jab at Jim Heller, when you wrote, 'the kind of aggressive baiting and grilling of each other that may perhaps be acceptable in a court of law.' In any case, what exactly is your issue? I don't see that here.

This forum is not a hospital ward, nor is that it's intent.

If you want a new standared go over to Recent Ex's forum or start your own forum if you think we are all a bunch of abusive jerks.

With respect,

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 19:48:33 (EST)
From: Miaow
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Mud Pies-Look like .... and taste worse())
Message:
Rawat is a fraud.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:08:23 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: Re: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect
Message:
Steve, you make some good points, but I feel the people below are right, in that this should be a forum where people are allowed to express their feelings in whatever way they want, as long as they aren't gratuitously abusive.

And even then.....I have watched exes here over the weeks changing from an abusive stance to a more thoughtful one - this can all be part of the process of engaging on this forum.

I for one have learnt myself that an abusive or thoughtless stance isn't the best way, for me anyway. I have made some thoughtless remarks at times and then on reading the reponses, have learnt something valuable. I have also learnt valuable lessons from reading the posts of people who always respond with warmth, sensitivity and generousity. However, sometimes anger is appropriate, and surely if we keep visiting the forum often enough, a sense begins to develop that the agenda here is the joint pursuit of truth, and a genuine attempt to unravel what has happened to us all. For me, I feel as if i am only just beginning to scratch the surface; each layer that comes off merely reveals another one, and so on and so on.

I just think that to impose strict rules as to how we are allowed to communicate here can only be inhibiting. After all, we all spent far too many years being told how we could and couldn't communicate, and we don't need it here!

Lastly, I feel that without mentioning any names, there are some people here who are better just ignored. They are not contributing in any genuine sense, and they give me a funny feeling. Actually I am referring to one particular person. Ignore him/her completely, I suggest.

With love, Livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 20:41:08 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect
Message:
Your observations are very astute, Livia. But I do want to caution this remark.

And even then.....I have watched exes here over the weeks changing from an abusive stance to a more thoughtful one - this can all be part of the process of engaging on this forum.

Yes, but are these peoples' tone changing with each other? Sometimes, the bad shit gets taken off the air, but that doesn't mean anything is resolved. Sometimes it gets resolved off the air, sometimes it gets worse. What you will notice, being here long enough, that the a lot of tension resurfaces because it is unresolved. Sometimes with the same players, other times different faces.

Also, if someone stops posting because of intense tensions, it will give the illusion that things are worked out.

But I fully agree with all the other observations-right on the money.

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 06:30:15 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: It sounds to me like
Message:
you're moving the Maharaji or premie ethic over to here. All this stuff about lower natures. All this stuff about telling people how they should be. It seems to me that you're carrying cult think over to here.

Leaving the Maha means that people can do, say and feel whatever they want and to hell with lower or higher natures crap. There is no group think or new religion here. It's just people. There isn't even an aim to this forum; there's no plan or direction from on high.

It's just people voicing their thoughts and feelings after leaving the Maha and also Maha revelations about the Maha and his crew, coming to light. Of course, if you want to start your new religion of peace and love, that's fine and you're free to do so.

(Although your post doesn't convey any peace or love to me - more like criticism and an attempt at dictatorship)

I get the feeling that most people here are fed up with people telling them how it is and trying to tell them to think or feel something else, other than what they're feeling.

Actually, I don't see very much disrespect here at all. Most people are treated very well and new people are welcomed with open arms and obvious premies are welcomed and even trolls are tolerated.

So what's the problem? I don't think there is one myself.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:09:44 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Your thorn is removed
Message:
I hear you, Sir Dave. I talk to exes outside of F7 and some have told me that they wish that some F7 posters would try a little harder to not be so abusive or even obnoxious. What I was attempting to do with this post was to at least raise the level of awareness that how we speak to each other here can be every bit as important as what we say to each other. I have no illusions that this will result in a sea change in the level of civility here, but at least it may cause some folks to at least give it some thought. Then again, if a particular individual does go to far and starts relentlessly riding someone’s butt in what others could view as a personal attack, at least the victim of that abuse now has some encouragement to stand up to the abuser and let them know that, if they want to play ball, they will have to do so in a fairer and less hostile manner.

I wrote the above paragraph a half hour ago. I gave it some time before seeing how on or off the mark I was before responding. I see that clearly I am way off the mark as far as those who bothered to respond are concerned and that I clearly don't belong here, and so, this truly is my final good bye to you guys. My mistake was thinking that F7 was a hospital ward. I realize now that it is a gladiator's pit which I will have no part of. Good bye.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:16:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Re: Your thorn is removed
Message:
Steve,

Who said you were a thorn? You.

No one here said that they wanted you to leave. No one here has purposely abused you. Maybe, if you can think about what has been expressed in this thread, you will see that people do value you and what you have to say. This forum isn't for those who cannot converse, and yes, sometimes argue, about ideas, religion, aethism, agnosticism, and on and on.

I don't see it as a problem that we are here and have grown at our own paces and have very different points of view. I see that as a valuable part of this forum. A huge plus. Especially because we exited the Maharajism cult.

Those of us who may or may not have certain beliefs know that if we present them on the forum, a challenge will take place. That's why this isn't a cult. Nor an ex-cult.

Take some time for yourself, if this forum doesn't satisfy your needs. Maybe apply for the recent exes forum. I suspect you'll also get challenges there, although I know nothing about that forum anymore.

What you presented here are your own personal ideas about astrology and unconditional love. Yet when confronted with by others here, you refused to discuss the issue. That's not exactly fair, regardless of what you know, have learned, and what you believe.

To leave without explanation, to call yourself a thorn, isn't fair to YOU, nor is it fair to others here who are wondering what you are angry about.

Please take care of yourself. It takes time to unravel the cult conditioning and programming that Maharaji ingrained in our minds.

It's your choice: leave or challenge yourself to open your mind and yes, your heart to those here who have been in the same boat as you. The big Maharaji boat, that was always filled with holes, without our knowledge of it's sinking and stinking captain.

Take care, and email if you wish,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:59:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: 'Civility' isn't the problem
Message:
The issue isn't civility, Steve. That's not what your real beef is. Your problem is that you simply aren't ready to bring your ideas to the table. For instance, your last big involvement on the forum was in the thread below, first on 'unconditional love' and then on astrology, the subject that you raised, no one else did.

Take a look at one of your posts there:

Jim, you still just don't get it. I've been trying to tell you that I don't care if the whole damn world comes out against Astrology. That doesn't mean a thing to me. I have been lied to and bs-ed to by so many so-called educated persons, scholars and experts that I don't take ANYTHING any of them says on the basis of their supposed credentials alone. I am an EXTREMELY independent thinker. I do my own thinking. I don't let someone else do my thinking for me. I'll listen to what they have to say but, depending on the importance and relevance to my own life, I always subject it to the reality acid test before accepting what they say as truth or fact.

This is how I learn anything: First, I study the theory behind it; then I attempt to verify the truth of that theory with my own practical experience. When I consistently observe over and over and over year in and year out the exact same kinds of behaviors and characteristics exhibited by people possessing the same planetary positions, then, what used to be theory is no longer theory but becomes knowledge. This knowledge, my own knowledge, the knowledge that I work hard to attain becomes mine and no one can take it away from me or try to talk me out of it. Anyone who tries to talk me out of knowledge that I have worked hard to achieve is simply dismissed by me as not having done their homework.

Now, I admit that, while my ability to observe how peoples' behaviors correspond to planetary positions is intuitively obvious and easy for me, having honed my skills at it for nearly 32 years, that same ability may not be so easy for others who lack the intuitive skills needed to make those connections. I can readily see how their failure and frustration at making the connections between theory and observed behaviors could cause them, in their frustration, to debunk Astrology altogether. That is their loss. They are the poorer for it, not me.

So, I doubt if I have changed your mind one iota. But I have attempted to explain HOW I study Astrology - like a science. The practical MUSTmatch the theory. There are some things that I don't accept such as the nodes of the moon and other things, but the basics - the planetary positions in the signs and in the houses and the aspects between planets - those things are very real, true and reliable indicators of human characteristics and behavior dispositions.

Anyway, I've said enough on this on F7 and I won't say any more about it since F7 is supposed to be about helping each other free ourselves from the evil and sick influence that M subjected us to.

Happy exing, Jim.

Can't you see how by saying something like:

This knowledge, my own knowledge, the knowledge that I work hard to attain becomes mine and no one can take it away from me or try to talk me out of it. Anyone who tries to talk me out of knowledge that I have worked hard to achieve is simply dismissed by me as not having done their homework.

you sound exactly like a premie? Didn't you spend years justifying your so-called 'Knowledge' experience in just this fashion?

Or how about when you said in the post before that:

Those who have eyes to see, will see. Those who refuse to look, never will. Does this make me crazy? No. It just means that I, to put it mildly, dance to QUITE a DIFFERENT drummer than you do.

Accept the fact that you will never make everyone else see things exactly the way you do or the way you would like them to. The best we can hope for is to try to share a little humanity, friendship, and love along life's journey should our paths cross.

Isn't that, too, just like a premie?

This is neither a hospital ward nor a gladiator pit, Steve. It's a place where we meet to talk about M and related issues. If you bring up astrology, you can expect someone to question you. If you tell people who don't accept astrology that they 'don't have eyes to see' or accuse them of 'refusing to look' you've only yourself to blame if they keep talking to you about it. Indeed, I would suggest that, by saying things like that, you are the one who's being uncivil and disrespectful. So that's something you might want to think about if you keep gossiping with whomever you're talking to about how 'abusive' and 'obnoxious' other people are here.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:24:32 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: The forum is YOU, Steve
Message:
I don't know what the problem is you're talking about. You haven't given any examples to go on. Personally I react against certian posts on some days if I read here. But my reaction isn't important. Mostly it's hot air.

Your previous posts here have been very good and thoughtful. Most people here probably write first and think later, after they've posted. This forum is only a collection of all the people here, of which you are one. If more reasonable voices are added to the total, then the unreasonable voices are drowned out.

Every forum has a ''vibe''. My forum, the AG forum has a vibe, very different to this place. It's not adversarial and is light (some say nonsense but what the heck). This forum is sometimes heavy but then that changes.

I don't think a person can really say they don't belong here because this forum is an ever changing group of people who write here. There's only a few who are always here. So whoever decides to write here, they are the forum. It's an illusion to suppose that there's some sort of collective group here with a common mentality or goal.

If I wrote enough (and could think of enough to write about) then I could be the dominant voice on the forum and my personality would pervade here. The same's true for anyone since there's no ruling elite or clique here. None whatsoever.

The forum is you, Steve. Whatever you decide to put into it and whatever others decide. You can shape things here, as much as anyone else.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:08:56 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Steve, you do belong here
Message:
But only if you're willing to debate your ideas rationally. Your analogy of this being a gladiator's pit is, I believe, incorrect. In a gladiators' pit, the gladiators fight until one of them is dead. When two people have a rational debate both of them are winners. Even if neither change their minds, at least they are enriched by a better understanding of the other. And if one is pursuaded that his or her point of view is incorrect, then they are further enriched. Come back and listen, learn, and teach, and enrich us all.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 11:33:04 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Steve, come on now,
Message:
I have tried to tell your about this form of communication. Non-verbal. The nature of this forum and I don't see anyway around it, is often hard and rude and to the point.

You realise that your approach here is well regarded. I appreciate your style, I appreciate what you have to offer, I appreciate your kindness, gentleness and perspective.

How did you get burned here? Was my post 'gladiator' style to you? Do you think I am a hypocrite?

Maybe you should leave but I would hate to see that without you at least saying what is bugging you. I seem to see, from what you say, that you have been hurt. What is hostile and unfair here?

Please, spell it out before you go. I try to be sensitive and loving, did what I wrote to you seem otherwise? I also need to be honest. I am sometimes blunt.

Before you go, at least tell me.

Sincerely,
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:46:52 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Over-reaction
Message:
Surely you realise that after having had the Lord of the Universe telling people how they should be behaving, people aren't going to react well to anyone telling them how they should be behaving.

I'm just a visitor here, by the way. I only post here now and then. Don't take anything I say as even remotely similar to what other people might be thinking.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:48:23 (EST)
From: jbsf
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: comment
Message:
'as it was when we were blindly following M' i could say that it was MY blindness and the blindness of those around me whom i mistakenly trusted, and not Prem, that caused me so much difficulty. in thirty years i can't think of one instance where i've ever felt mislead or lied to by him. of the several times i had personal contact with Prem he was very honest, to the point of being brutal. there was no hint of deception or psychological coercion.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:55:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jbsf
Subject: There were more than hints
Message:
Just because you didn't pick up on them it's not say that there weren'
t, in fact, all sorts of hints that M was deceiving or coercing you. What do you think saying something like 'Never doubt the purity of the Master' is? Wake up, my friend!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:21:43 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: jbsf
Subject: Re: comment
Message:
Well, I guess I see it very differently. I think that the whole show he puts on, the 'Maharaji Show' is misleading and apart from containing a lot of lies, such as 'Even in your deepest, darkest hour, I will not abandon you' (really, Mr Prempal Rawat?). Apart from all the lies, and there are many in the things Mr Rawat has said to us in his persona of 'Maharaji', there is the whole basic fundamental misleading lie of putting the show on at all, in which he is encouraging people to give him their love and support, whilst pretending that he is offering his love and support to them.

I consider that to be a major deception, palming off what is essentially a flirting session as the fulfilment of your life. Yup, painful as it is, we were had, fortunately, the pain does ease quite quickly; once you stop having faith in 'Maharaji', you can make your own mind up about the man behind the show.

Best regards, Lesley, I walked two years ago, after 27 years of being a premie.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 10:28:14 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: jbsf
Subject: Yes Maharaji is a 'nice guy,'
Message:
Has a bit of charisma too, wouldn't you say?

Look there's been lots of 'nice guys' throughout history who weren't 'nice.' And they were excellent liars too! Had lots of people believing in them to boot.

You have followed him for thirty years, he commissioned you in your youth, as a young adult.Someone with not alot of experience, idealistic, full of energy and life. I would say intelligent too. After all, how many people do you see with an I.Q. under 90 who bought this crap? It's not the first time this has happened nor alas, the last time, but you've been had.

I'm very curious, and I promise not to beat you up nor flame you, but please, would you tell me about the times that you met M? How was he brutally 'honest' with you? What was the issue? The nature of the conversation?

I would say the reason you were not able to detect deception or psychological coercion ever from M is the simple fact that Maharaji does believe his own trip. He really thinks that 'He's the one.' He's above it all, this world and has no responsibility to answer to anyone, ever. 'I give you Knowledge, the ultimate Truth, and you owe me bud, you owe me big time.'

What a trip.

Take care,
Tonette

And just how well do you know him? Really, think about it.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:14:58 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: jbsf
Subject: This is interesting jbsf
Message:
You manage to have a relationship with someone lasting thirty years, during which, at no point do they offer any dishonesty in your direction. Hmmm? What sort of relationship might this be?

You talk of your experiences of blindness, mistaken trust and difficulty-all real problems indeed. You have assigned explanation for these difficulties to various factors, but,in the first mention significantly, to yourself. So you know you can get it wrong.

I suggest that your inability to connect your Guru with any form of deception is a continuing case of your admitted tendency to get it wrong.

When I used to say stuff like you, I was a believer. I lived on faith.
And that is what you are now, a believer.

To me,the reason you see his behaviour as impeccable is because you want and need to see someone as such. What your Guru ACTUALLY is is of no interest to you. What matters is what you WANT him to be(a fact guru is fully aware of by the way). Its after that point of faith that you start your 'enquiries' into your Guru.

You believe in your Guru-fine. But don't try to give the impression you have any faith in power of judgement, or ability to discover, or
desire to know. And don't imagine therfore that any of your observations will carry any weight around here.

Love Bryn

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:52:20 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: jbsf
Subject: Hi jbsf
Message:
'If anything comes between you and Guru Mahara Ji, regard it as your enemy and srike it out of the way'

Were you there when prem said that.

What does it mean to you?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 03:13:27 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: Re: Serving Newbies with Civility & Respect
Message:
Steve, you said: ''Those of us more seasoned exes who have managed to re-grow our freedom wings and have learned to fly again need to have and, more importantly, need to show consistently, day in and day out, compassion and understanding towards these long-suffering souls.''

See, I've been here for about a year. It took six months to figure out that all that love and kindness that you want to provide for newbies does already exist here. Of course, I did read every post everyday until I understood the nuances of the relationships here.

Some of the oldies may seem to be harsh with each other but the old forums were really battle grounds and some of them have so much scar tissue that it's given them a thick skins. You and I are not yet ''seasoned'' warriors although a CAC attack has a funny way of making you see that you have more in common with most exes than you perhaps thought you did.

We all contribute whatever we think is the best for the forum - well most of us do. Ex-premies really are mostly very special people. Many were pioneers at the birth of the cult and many at the beginning of EPO.

You added that ''....a new standard needs to be established that has as its long range goal zero tolerance for meanness, cruelty, abusive argumentativeness, and the kind of aggressive baiting and grilling of each other that may perhaps be acceptable in a court of law but that is totally unacceptable in the F7 virtual hospital ward for exes recovering from the wounds....''

I also hope for your aspirations but don't expect them. In fact I seldom expect anything from anybody and am always pleasnatly surprised when something nice happens. Maybe your role here is as forum nurse and mine as clown. :C)

But in the real world (which the forum is part of) there also are lawyers and their incisive interrogations keep the dynamics of democracy humming. Jim of the ''court of law'' is only one of many voices here. We also have amateur psychoanalysts, restauranteurs, who would prefer to post recipes and reviews than argue, and preachers who climb up on their soap boxes occassionally. We are all just part of the landscape of the forum garden.

Everything's humming along just fine. Any more rules and regulations, standards or expectations (except what you expect and demand of yourself) and we might as well all go back into the cult and participate in a synchronized manner thereby destroying our hard won individuality and feistiness.

''Long live the weeds and wilderness yet,
Oh! let them be left, the wildness and wet.''

If you prune and weed and trim a garden all the time it ends up looking like some sterile place where queens have tea parties with white rabbits er prime ministers.

Total non sequitur - Where did I read this yesterday? George Bernard Shaw, the staunch atheist, said: ''If you want to see god, dig in a garden.''

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 01:19:56 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: I think truth is our aim here
Message:
Steve,

This forum arose from a need to establish the truth about our involvement with Maharaji. The ex-premie website attempts to document the facts as they have been established. The forum is an ongoing discussion about Maharaji and his cult, where everyone speaks from their own experience and opinions, and offers their own perspective on the Maharaji phenomenon. Out of the discussions here, some commonly agreed facts have been established, not least of which is that we were in a cult, and that this affected our thinking abilities. Also, from these discussions it is clear we disagree about many things. When we do disagree, it is healthy to say so, and say why. Unless the disagreement is totally of a subjective nature (such as whether Marmite is tasty or not), then by discussion it is possible to establish why each person holds their view, and even, by presenting compelling evidence, one person may actually change their view (such as whether Maharaji is a cult leader or not - which has happened here).

Now before a discussion about a disagreement occurs on this forum, someone has to express a view that someone else disagrees with. Now if they do disagree, should they keep quiet, or express that disagreement, with hopefully their reasons why? Well fair play says that they have the right to express their view, as the first person did. Now whether the two then wish to expand on their respective positions is up to them, and as this is an open forum, anyone who has a view can join in. Of course it should be civil, but it's a fact that dicussions involving deeply held views can and do get emotional.

How does this affect new ex-premies? Well, newcomers may have rejected Maharaji but they may not have rejected a lot of the cult conditioning. One part of the cult conditioning is that we do not question or criticise, and when new people see that here they either embrace it in their new found freedom, or they feel uncomfortable. Does that mean that those of us here who value free debate should practice some form of self-censorship for those newcomers who feel uncomfortable? What about those newcomers who love the free expression here? Also, in life away from cults, there are many people who feel uncomfortable having their views questioned, so many of those newcomers will probably never change, and will always find this place threatening. But others will change, as many here will testify, and revel in the freedom of speech here.

So to you, Steve. You have started, and contributed to, a number of threads where you have made very debatable claims. I, and others, have challenged you on those claims, and your main defence has been that nothing will change your mind on your convictions. Fine, but hardly indicative of someone who is truly interested in finding the truth. For instance, your belief in Astrology may stand up to your personal empirical experience, but have you examined whether it stands up to objective scientific scrutiny? You say there is something called unconditional love, but have not been able to provide any evidence that such a thing exists, where others have produced good arguments that the love we feel is very much conditional.

My point is that you, by stating controversial views (including by starting this thread), have contributed to the adversarial nature of this forum, and long may you be free to do so. Just don't criticise the rest of us for joining in:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 03:27:00 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Disagree with you, John, and won't budge
Message:
You said: ''When we do disagree, it is healthy to say so, and say why. Unless the disagreement is totally of a subjective nature (such as whether Marmite is tasty or not.)''

That's total nonsense. It is not arguable that Marmite is tasty. It simply has to be eaten every morning on hot buttered toast. It is essential eventhough certain stubborn people like Andy disagree and hate it much as I have tried to get him to eat it for 9 years. Some people are just mules. Now, a taste for Vegemite - that's subjective and highly debatable.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 08:09:08 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Want to say something about Marmite..
Message:
But I will not respond to you until you show civility and respect.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:42:59 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: As my dear departed mother said.....
Message:
''If you can't say anything nice about Marmite, don't say anything at all.''
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:32:07 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Marmite
Message:
One of the odd things about the species known as English is their love of Marmite, a foul and discusting paste made from what's left over after they make beer, or I think that's where it comes from. Yechh.

I read a study that said that if one does not eat Marmite and get used to it by the age of 3, they will always hate it. Sounds right to me.

Is there anything equivalent to Americans? Peanut butter perhaps?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:38:51 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Marmite & Peanut Butter
Message:
Joe,

I appear to be an exception to your study in that I certainly never ate Marmite before the age of three. There was recently an excellent marketting campaign for Marmite which had the slogan 'Marmite - you either love it or hate it'. One of the ads featured this couple going back to her place. She disappear into the kitchen while he makes himself comfortable on the sofa. She reappears and they move together and kiss. He expresses disgust and runs into the bathroom. The camera pans into the kitchen to reveal a half eaten piece of Marmite toast. In another ad an office worker, eating his packed lunch in the park, takes pity on a tramp (vagrant) and as he gets up to leave, gives the tramp his last sandwich from his lunch. The tramp takes a bite and throws the sandwich away in disgust. Marmite - you either love it or hate it.

That was a message from Forum 7's new sponsors, Marmite. Try it, you might just love it!

BTW, I even eat Marmite with Peanut Butter on toast.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:45:00 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Marmite & Peanut Butter
Message:
Yes, Marmite AND peanut butter with a slice of cheese and some strawberry jam is perfect for the stoned munchies.

Did you know that Americans eat mayonnaise on white bread? Now that's sick. And that they don't put butter on the bread before spreading peanut butter on so it sticks to the roof of your mouth? And that they eat straight out of the fridge standing up?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:51:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Marmite be wrong...
Message:
I know someone who likes spam and puts butter on bread before they eat the peanut butter. YUCK.

I never heard of marmite. Sounds like something rodents excrete and is scraped up off the floor, compressed and sold as food.

Sort of like fava beans and cognac.

I gotta get out of this place, my mind is a piece of toast.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:50:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Marmite & Peanut Butter
Message:
Pat, I'm an American and I don't eat mayonnaise on white bread. Before I was a vegetarian, however, Hellman's Mayonnaise on leftover Thanksgiving turkey was to die for.

Hey, cranberries, there's one. I don't believe they eat them in England. That's another American food, I think. Add cranberry sauce to that turkey sandwich, please.

Butter AND Peanut butter? Wow. Now THERE is an artery block waiting to happen! If you put blueberry preserves on the peanut butter, it will not stick to your mouth.

I confess, I cannot keep organic peanut butter in the house, or I will eat the entire container with a spoon. :)

Actually, Pat, single people eat over the sink. Married people like me, are forced to sit down to eat, or else you would be considered rude. :)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:19:30 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Marmite but Pa won't
Message:
Yes, the civilizing influence of marriage. It took me years to get Chuck to stop eating straight out of the fridge but now we all dine like civilized human beings - well almost.

I still can't get used to putting my knife down and using the fork with my right hand though and even Chuck now eats English style with fork in left hand.

But, Joe, you can't deny that a lot of Americans eat mayonnaise on white bread especially in Iowa. And they put ketchup on goddam near everything!

But are cranberries good for anything except turkey?

I better shut up or Gerry will block me for all this OT crap.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 16:45:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Ya wanna hear gross? (OT)
Message:
My husband's former employer, a very wealthy and cultured woman, graduate of Miss Porter's in Farmington, Conn..a debutante...

Would sit in front of us with a jar of mayonaisse and a package of baloney, dipping the baloney into the jar with big fat globs.

So much for the ruling class....

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 17:30:49 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That is gross
Message:
Actually baloney is gross all by itself, and I could never eat it. I could tell you horror stories about the people I knew, mostly guys I went to college with who got summer jobs, who worked at an Oscar Meyer plant where they made baloney, and hot dogs too. They always said to me that if anyone knew what went into that shit no one would ever eat it. And not one ever said that wished they were an Oscar Meyer weiner. Not one. :)

Yeah, I really am married, and I have the ball and chain around my ankles to prove it! :)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:54:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I love that you say you're married, Joe...
Message:
It just warms my heart.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:01:14 (EST)
From: Vegemite, marmite
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yucky, poo po
Message:
Ingredients:
Vegemite: (Kraft General Foods NZ Ltd)
Yeast extract, salt, malt extract, colour(caramel), vegetable flavours, vitamins (niacin, thiamine, riboflavin)
Marmite: (Sanatarium Health Food Company, NZ)
Yeast, sugar, salt, wheatgerm extract, mineral salt (508) colour(caramel), herbs, spices, vitamins (niacin, thiamin, riboflavin)
It's also got a small note under the ingredients: '100% vegetarian' (but then, what do you expect from a company owned by the 7th Day Adventist church?)

Promite: (Masterfoods of Australia)
Vegetable protein extract, sugar, yeast, natural colour(caramel) salt, thickener (Wheat starch), emulsifier (Glycerol monostearate) spices, added vitamins, water

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:07:32 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I disagree with you about vegemite
Message:
Vegemite just doesn't do it. It's got totally the wrong texture, and the taste is insipid. Marmite every time - fortunately I'm the only one in my house to like it so I only need two big jars brought over from England each year.

Now what were we arguing about?

John

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:15:52 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Actually we agree about vegemiteB) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:56:52 (EST)
From: Happy little Vegemite
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Actually we agree about vegemiteB)
Message:
G'day Pat,
Long time no see.I have to be incognito nowadays.I have another grandkid by the way.Sorry to rub Vegemite into the wound.Keep up the good work me ol' mate.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:40:13 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Happy little Vegemite
Subject: G'day, grandpa. I've missed you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:26:24 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I meant 'I disagree that;s it's highly debatable'! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:17:45 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Vegemite-is that a flea on a vegetarian?(nt)
Message:
Vegemite-is that a flea on a vegetarian?(nt)

Tee hee.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 00:15:57 (EST)
From: Or Failing That: With Some Parsley
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Highest Service of F7:
Subject: And A Nice White Sauce nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 05:58:06 (EST)
From: with fava beans and
Email: None
To: Or Failing That: With Some Parsley
Subject: a nice Chianti. ta-ta!-H [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 21:01:39 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Brian and Gerry
Message:
Give me a call.
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 23:21:58 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Brian and Gerry
Message:
Marianne, have you tried the City Jail yet?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 00:52:41 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Brian and Gerry
Message:
Just got done with calling all the hospitals. I heard on the police scanner that there's two guys creating a disturbance out at the intersection of Market and Castro. One is wearing a feather boa and the other only has on orange lizard cowboy boots. I guess after Pat, Chuck and Andy left them in the Castro this afternoon, they decided to get into the swing of things. I've got a funny feeling about this...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:22:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: LOLOLOL! Thanks! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 19:47:15 (EST)
From: Marge Large
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Amaroo Pre Payment
Message:
You can go on over to www.amaroo.org and make a 'prepayment' of either $300 or $500 which will be credited against the cost of the next Amaroo event, that cost not being disclosed. Isn't that strange? The images of throwing cash into a "bottomless pit" and "getting conned" comes to mind, I don't know why. Must be lack of that understanding.

When I, Marge Large, living on Tunsafun Road in Pleasingly Obese, Louisiana, went over there, I pledged $500 to be paid by cheque, and was duly thanked by the powers that roo Amaroo.

I plan to put my cheque in the mail straight away, no doubt about that. I suggest that all you good ex-premies show your support for Maharaji and go over and do the same. Why, I heard Pauline Premie, Tami Sunshine Rainbow, and Ted Farkel are on their way to www.amaroo.org as you read this. You only have until 22 February to take advantage of this special offer, to pay money towards an unknown eventual cost.

Just doin my (big) part,

Marge

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:26:55 (EST)
From: Marge Large
Email: None
To: Marge Large
Subject: I got a confirmation
Message:
Wow, I am so blissed out. I got the following confirmation of my agreement to make a $500 pre-payment. Here it is:

From: 'guest-relations@ircc.com.au'
Subject: Confirmation: Amaroo Pre-Payment
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 17:41:40 -0700

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---
--
Thank you for your Amaroo pre-payment. We hope that the process was quick and simple. Please keep a record of your confirmation number for future reference.

When an event at Amaroo is announced, a customer service representative will be in touch with you to assist in redeeming your event credit.

I wonder who it might be who will call me. Some PAM, I hope, who gets lots of darshan and hence is very high and I will get a buzz just listening to the PAM talk to me and take my money.

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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 06:24:34 (EST)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: Marge Large
Subject: What if you can't make it......
Message:
...will you receive a refund??? Can you ask them what the deal is on that??????
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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 13:09:58 (EST)
From: Marge Large
Email: None
To: WMary
Subject: No Refund promised
Message:
So, if you never make it to Amaroo, you never get the credit. I guess it becomes a 'donation.'
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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 02:00:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Using a spellchecker, Quiet?
Message:
I see that your spelling mistakes have suddenly and miraculously disappeared. Thank god for modern technology. You almost don't need a brain nowadays not even to be a lawyer.
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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 17:14:40 (EST)
From: Marge Large
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Re: No Refund promised.
Message:
No, they didn't promise a refund if I never go to Amaroo, but you may be right that it's illegal for them to just keep my money indefinitely.

But since I live in Louisiana, I'm not sure Australian law is going to be of much help to me anyway, not that there isn't comparable legislation in the USA. But I would NEVER seek legal recourse against Maharaji, even if I gave him everything. He's the Lord, you know. I'm grateful I get to participate, even in my small $500 donation.

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Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002 at 17:33:17 (EST)
From: QUIET IS A
Email: None
To: Quiet!
Subject: TROLL>
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:41:58 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marge Large
Subject: or: 'wham, bam, thank you PAM'? (nt)
Message:
or: 'wham, bam, thank you PAM'? (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:25:43 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Marge Large
Subject: It's a miracle!
Message:
From a ">free brochure downloadable from the Visions International website (under introductory/special offer):

"Without advertising or charging fees to attend his speaking events,
Maharaji has genuinely touched the lives of hundreds of thousands of
people worldwide".

Touched them with them the realization that both he and Elan Vital are blatant liars, perhaps?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 04:29:15 (EST)
From: Thelma the Church lady
Email: None
To: Marge Large
Subject: I suppose I'm chopped liver!
Message:
I pledged my five hundred too that's if I win at Golden Gate Fields winter handicap. I put $5 on the dark horse outsider at a 100 to one.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 12:56:57 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Thelma the Church lady
Subject: Here's a Fabulous Tidbit...
Message:
So, fatboy has accepted the invitation, but not really, and not for sure, it could happen, but maybe not, but just in case, send us the money! Yiiiikes! The noive!

For the pre-payment registration process we will be working with an American based company, RegOnline. Pre-payment will be processed at Amaroo in Australian dollars. But after the event is confirmed, registrations will be through RegOnline in US dollars because of the high volume of transactions.

US dollars. Maharaji must eat them for breakfast, lunch and dinner, with fava beans and a nice cognac. Nibble, nibble, crunch! ''Yummm....jets....yummm...yachts.....yummmm....."

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:39:50 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Chianti, wasn't it? /nt
Message:
yowza
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 15:30:18 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Well, at least you caught it...
Message:
Hi Carl,

I'm glad someone picked up on that one. Yowza is right.

Yup, 'ole Hannibal Lector's line was ''fava beans and a nice chianti''

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:00:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Right, and also
Message:
US dollars are worth twice as much as Australian dollars. Those poor Australian premies get the shaft.

Anybody know anything about RegOnline? Is that a cult company?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:05:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: RegOnline...
Message:
Joe,

Here's a link.
[ RegOnline Clients ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:50:53 (EST)
From: WhoIs Search shows
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: RegOnline...
Message:
Registrant:
Midnight Solutions, Inc. (REGONLINE-DOM)
1924 Cedaridge Circle
Superior, CO 80027 USA

Domain Name: REGONLINE.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
McColl, K. Chesley (CM110) chesley@EARTHNET.NET
Earthnet Inc
5717 Arapahoe Rd.
Boulder, CO 80303
(303)546-6362
Billing Contact:
Safari, Attila (AS3628) asafari@MIDNIGHTSOLUTIONS.COM
Midnight Solutions, Inc.
1924 Cedaridge Circle
Superior, CO 80027
303-554-1757 (FAX) 303-554-1757

Record last updated on 15-Jun-2001.
Record expires on 16-Apr-2003.
Record created on 15-Apr-1997.
Database last updated on 21-Feb-2002 01:09:00 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

BOULDER.EARTHNET.NET 199.45.146.1
NS1.CINENET.NET 198.147.76.65

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 13:52:52 (EST)
From: Do they know
Email: None
To: WhoIs Search shows
Subject: they're enabling a cult leader? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 12:49:45 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary
Message:
Yesterday would have been my 30th anniversary of receiving Knowledge [now referred to as “Self-Knowledge’] . . . but I never made it. I left K last summer after 29-1/2 years. It wasn’t easy to leave my long-time Master [woooooof!!] and all my premie friends and my dedicated life of service and devotion to M, and everything socially that I’d built up around it. But I’m glad I’m finished with this personality cult. It was sad. But seen from the distance of six months of clearer-headed thinking and analysis, the sadness has almost all left, the questions have begun to be answered, the pain slowly subsided. I can now see and enjoy again the beauty which is everywhere around me -- unfettered and free, not through the prism of a fake spirituality, fake Truth, fake dreams, fake reality.

I recall how when I first left for good (and removed all pictures, materials and paraphernalia from my house and sight, and posted same) that that night when I went to bed, I just cried a little. The tears were deep and sharp and hurt me inside, but didn’t last long. I cried because of all the years and years of bhakti juju I mistakenly dived into and totally bought, like an idiot -- but a youthful one. I cried because I had fooled myself for so long that it hurt to be the fool, once again. I cried because I finally found out the clandestine story behind M’s curtains and now believed that I’d been had and had been for a long long time. I cried because of what I had made my of my life -- egotistically believing I was the one who knew the Truth, and non-premies walking around this earth were in the dark -- materialistic, yet good natured. I cried for having trusted in this flawed person [M] as someone who really cared for me -- like my God and Savior. Wrong wrong wrong! I trusted as a young man, doubted in my adulthood, and finally left as a senior citizen. But I'll get up and just wipe the dirt off my knees and walk on -- just like when I was five-years-old and fell on the pavement.

As I lay there hurting that night, I reminded myself: “It’s all over now. It’s okay. You did it. You’ll be okay.” How could I have been taken FOR EVERYTHING for so many years? Easy, I allowed by mind and my thinking capacities to be stunted and twisted and turned every which way by M and his minions. His way to spiritualism turned out to be a hoax. Just a financial con which left him with cars, planes, yachts, helicopters and all manner of rich men’s toys -- but sad and lonely and alone with his little dwindling trip. He hates his devotees, it’s obvious. He hates everybody. He can’t stand to be around the little folk. They want to love him and want his love back, but he's just human.

I found that I can get up and rehabilitate myself and try to apologize to those I’ve looked down on and snubbed with my “MY GUY HAD TO BE GOD” trip. I am thankful to those on this very Forum who questioned and criticized me when I waffled; and welcomed me when I finally tossed everything M out, and continued to teach me about some things I just figured I already knew, but really didn’t. Thanks everyone reading. To those lurkers: Hey, come on in, the water’s fine. It does matter when you write and post because it comes out of you from a place which you’ve stiffled for years and years.

I hope for continued clarity to all here.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 17:44:11 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Thank you OTS
Message:
I think it's right what you said about Maharaji not being able to stand the little folk. Well, fuck him.

As they say, the best revenge is living well, and we should all do that.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 05:54:06 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary
Message:
Thank you very much for your heartfelt post. Yeah, you said: 'Egoistically believing I was the one who know the truth' I was one too, believing that and today I know, that it was all ego based. It was all so much an egotrip, this is called spiritual matrialism and we went in the trap because M is very deep in that. He is the one who has to learn, but I think he has not the courage. That's the shame.
Evil comes from persons, who offer more than they can give or pretend to be more spirituall developt than they really are and M is a perfect example for this. So much demage is done.

The best thing about knowledge was the company of premies who just were there for kindness and having a good time.

.............love .............ciao ...........wolfie

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 20:59:41 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Dearest OTS
Message:
You have spoken my life here.
I was moved to tears to read this.
Thank you.
Fuck this is difficult.
All I have at this moment is me and the knowledge that I was sincere in my offering of love and my life.

I also have aHuge debt of heartfelt gratitude for all of you who post here in courage and sometimes pain and confusion in an effort to make sense of what happened to us.

If it is possible to love people in this virtual space, then I can surely say that I feel Love for you, I have received more compassion in my short duration here than in the combined 30 years of Service to M.
History always repeats, may I become the wiser for this.
Jai Sat Chit Anand

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 15:49:37 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Beautiful work, OTS
Message:
Well spoken, OTS , the clarity of mind that you have now is shining through brighter than ever, you have come a long,long way my freind and in such a short time too. I congratulate you on your courage and your honesty.

You spoke so sincerely of my own feelings and emotions that I recently just went through myself and of the tears that I too shed upon realizing that I had invested most of my youth and more than half of my life in devoted and dedicated to a myth and a fantasy.

Thank you so much for sharing your incredible story of survival, your story is one that represents hope and possibility for others like us who have spent so many years committed to the myth to finally break free.

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:57:48 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary
Message:
OTS, that was abeautiful opst that almost made me cry. Thanks.

With lots of love, Livia

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:54:35 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Happily Forgotten 30th Anniversary
Message:
OTS, that was a beautiful post that almost made me cry. Thanks.

With lots of love, Livia

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:52:43 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: many many thanks, OTS
Message:
Thank you for making the effort and taking the time to write that and share it with us. It is stuff like this that keeps me coming back to the forum and makes it so rewarding.

When I hear that another person has regained their intellectual, psychological and emotional independence from that stunted little Hindu from Hardwar, I feel as if my time spent here is not wasted.

And, if my time since leaving the cult is anything to go by, it just jeeps getting better everyday. I wish you everything of the best in your life.

But I have one quibble with you. Just because we're now getting mailings from AARP does not mean we are senior citizens. We're middle-aged. Seniors are seventy and up.

And it could have been worse - we might have been shuffling around in walkers with that silly superior premie smirk on our faces. Instead we are happily smiling through the egg on our faces instead. :)

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 17:31:31 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: many many thanks, OTS
Message:
Dear OTS,

Thank you for that thoughful post. As Pat said, middle age in my opinion is wonderful. You get to be loud and express opinions in public and get away with it. I'm notorious for that and often embarrass those around me.:) What the hell, we only live once.

And I thank you also for your honesty and integrity.

Email me sometime if you'd like: sylviecyn@yahoo.com

I recently had a virus attack...and on and on....;)

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 17:59:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Truer words... Cynth
Message:
You get to be loud and express opinions in public and get away with it.

You got that right. :)

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 22:37:41 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Truer words... Cynth
Message:
''You get to be loud and express opinions in public and get away with it.''

Oh, is that middle-age? I thought I was entering my second childhood too soon. Makes me look forward to being a senior citizen.

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 14:21:26 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Another good one, OTS
Message:
OTS,

Your post is a good example of the human ability to evolve, regardless of circumstance. Beyond all the suffering and pain, this too shall pass.

The best of what we are about here is telling our stories without fear. Thanks for having the courage to review your thoughts and feelings around the exit process and fearlessly lay them out for us to see. It inspires me to continue my process of heart awakening, grieving and heading out into the bright light of day.

All the best,
Richard

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:22:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Wonderful post, OTS
Message:
Good for you, if you don't mind my saying so.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:25:55 (EST)
From: J McG
Email: johnmac@turboweb.net.au
To: Jim
Subject: I second that emotion
Message:
Yeah, I'll second that - lovely post OTS.

My experience is that that feeling of devastation and waste retreats after a while. And that the 'free at last' feeling grows much larger.

Best,

John

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 07:34:13 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Do geese see God? (ot)
Message:
Today's date: 20.02.2002 (at least in English, if not American), and it'll be 110 years until the next one.

Talking of palindromes (which read the same backwards as forwards), a certain Dan Hoey discovered the following 540-word palindrome, a variation on the old 'a man, a plan, a canal - Panama!'

'A man, a plan, a caret, a ban, a myriad, a sum, a lac, a liar,
a hoop, a pint, a catalpa, a gas, an oil, a bird, a yell, a vat,
a caw, a pax, a wag, a tax, a nay, a ram, a cap, a yam, a gay,
a tsar, a wall, a car, a luger, a ward, a bin, a woman, a vassal,
a wolf, a tuna, a nit, a pall, a fret, a watt, a bay, a daub,
a tan, a cab, a datum, a gall, a hat, a fag, a zap, a say, a jaw,
a lay, a wet, a gallop, a tug, a trot, a trap, a tram, a torr,
a caper, a top, a tonk, a toll, a ball, a fair, a sax, a minim,
a tenor, a bass, a passer, a capital, a rut, an amen, a ted,
a cabal, a tang, a sun, an ass, a maw, a sag, a jam, a dam, a sub,
a salt, an axon, a sail, an ad, a wadi, a radian, a room, a rood,
a rip, a tad, a pariah, a revel, a reel, a reed, a pool, a plug,
a pin, a peek, a parabola, a dog, a pat, a cud, a nu, a fan, a pal,
a rum, a nod, an eta, a lag, an eel, a batik, a mug, a mot, a nap,
a maxim, a mood, a leek, a grub, a gob, a gel, a drab, a citadel,
a total, a cedar, a tap, a gag, a rat, a manor, a bar, a gal,
a cola, a pap, a yaw, a tab, a raj, a gab, a nag, a pagan, a bag,
a jar, a bat, a way, a papa, a local, a gar, a baron, a mat, a rag,
a gap, a tar, a decal, a tot, a led, a tic, a bard, a leg, a bog,
a burg, a keel, a doom, a mix, a map, an atom, a gum, a kit,
a baleen, a gala, a ten, a don, a mural, a pan, a faun, a ducat,
a pagoda, a lob, a rap, a keep, a nip, a gulp, a loop, a deer,
a leer, a lever, a hair, a pad, a tapir, a door, a moor, an aid,
a raid, a wad, an alias, an ox, an atlas, a bus, a madam, a jag,
a saw, a mass, an anus, a gnat, a lab, a cadet, an em, a natural,
a tip, a caress, a pass, a baronet, a minimax, a sari, a fall,
a ballot, a knot, a pot, a rep, a carrot, a mart, a part, a tort,
a gut, a poll, a gateway, a law, a jay, a sap, a zag, a fat,
a hall, a gamut, a dab, a can, a tabu, a day, a batt, a waterfall,
a patina, a nut, a flow, a lass, a van, a mow, a nib, a draw,
a regular, a call, a war, a stay, a gam, a yap, a cam, a ray,
an ax, a tag, a wax, a paw, a cat, a valley, a drib, a lion,
a saga, a plat, a catnip, a pooh, a rail, a calamus, a dairyman,
a bater, a canal--Panama.'

Are we not drawn onward, we few, drawn onward to new era?
[ article from today's Guardian ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 09:28:51 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Found this palindrome yesterday. ot
Message:
DOC, NOTE! I DISSENT;A FAST NEVER PREVENTS A FATNESS;I DIET ON COD.

I regard it as superior as it makes sense. (being an ex, making sense is no longer a luxury.)
Such fun
love bryn

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 14:04:20 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Are we not drawn onward, we few ...?
Message:
Are we not drawn onward, we few, drawn onward to new era?
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:07:31 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Geese mate for life.
Message:
And if one dies, they will not take another mate. Those Geese, they have one over on Maharaji that's for sure.
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:12:30 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: pssst. Hey, don't tell anyone but
Message:
- if you read the letters from the end of the sentence to the beginning ...

... yup, you're getting it.

Madam, I'm Adam.

;)

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 04:06:46 (EST)
From: a little Satsang
Email: None
To: All
Subject: from Josef Stalin
Message:
When Josef Stalin was on his deathbed he called in two likely successors, to test which one of the two had a better knack for ruling the country.

He ordered two birds to be brought in and presented one bird to each of the two candidates.

The first one grabbed the bird, but was so afraid that the bird could free himself from his grip and fly away that he squeezed his hand very hard, and when he opened his palm, the bird was dead.

Seeing the disapproving look on Stalin's face and being afraid to repeat his rival's mistake, the second candidate loosened his grip so much that the bird freed himself and flew away.

Stalin looked at both of them scornfully. 'Bring me a bird!' he ordered.

They did.

Stalin took the bird by its legs and slowly, one by one, he plucked all the feathers from the bird's little body.

Then he opened his palm. The bird was laying there naked, shivering, helpless.

Stalin looked at him, smiled gently and said, 'You see... and he is even thankful for the human warmth coming out of my palm.'


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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 17:22:40 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: a little Satsang
Subject: That is so heavy (ot)
Message:
I heard that one some time or other. I knew a guy years ago who was the son of one of Stepan Bandera's men.

If you're an American,regardless of accidents,lunatics & any other reason why it might seem like a good idea,NEVER give up your right to bear arms.

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 18:37:40 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: the 'Right to death'
Message:
This is the right for thousands of Americans to die every year in the USA from gun inflicted wounds. The most dangerous country on earth.I've never understood how this correlation is not glaringly obvious, but then I come from a different culture.
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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 19:58:44 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: What different culture?(ot)
Message:
You mean the one where armed political parties shoot their way to power,maybe,despite possession of arms being illegal.

The 2nd amendment is to do with citizens having the right to defend themselves against the state. If the citizens of the Ukraine & many other places had had that right, then maybe Uncle Joe might not have been able to pluck so many little birds feathers.

That's all I was thinking.

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Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2002 at 13:04:00 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: a little Satsang
Subject: Never heard that story.
Message:
Is it true? Great parrallel never-the-less.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Feb 21, 2002 at 07:38:00 (EST)
From: J McG
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: It's fiction... (OT)
Message:
(or at least it's not mentioned by Lord Bullock, one of Stalin's leading biographers), but I agree it's an excellent analogy.

What actually happened on Stalin's deathbed was that Beria (security chief and all-purpose mass murderer) kissed Stalin's hand repeatedly whenever he was conscious, shedding many tears of devotion - and cursed him vilely whenever he lapsed into unconsciousness. It was an early example of the cult dissociative technique (-: (I adore him/I resent and fear him.)

As befitted someone who murdered many tens of millions, Stalin's death agony was considerable. Beria was arrested when Kruschev convened the first post-Stalin cabinet meeting and pulled a revolver on him. (They knew how to conduct cabinet meetings in those days.) He was subsequently executed.

Cheers (if that is the word),

John

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