PatC -:- Are there any good religions? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:10:54 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- (Christian) Jehovahs Witnesses of course -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:37:27 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- I posted above on SatC and it appeared here? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:39:55 (EST)

Jim -:- Real people or Harvey the Rabbit? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 19:37:17 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- These musings are disturbing -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 21:52:31 (EST)

JHB -:- New Journey and White Pages Entries -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:04:03 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- NOTICE TO ALL PERSONS CALLED GERRY -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:25:10 (EST)

__ gerry -:- I see it! I see it! -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:58:28 (EST)

JHB -:- I've retired from Lifes Great -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 08:40:27 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Here's your gold ''EIYDHIWT'' watch -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:07:42 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- OK, I give up -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 18:32:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- EIYDHIWNAY?..... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 19:52:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: EIYDHIWNAY?.... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:39:27 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Cognitive Dissonance... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:40 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia....about the above -:- link re: Cognitive Dissonance... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:57:17 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Cynthia, have you read the rest of the site? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:10:24 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yikes John! Sorry... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:54:57 (EST)

__ Mirror -:- Re: I've retired from Lifes Great -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:27:09 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Apology offered for rude remarks -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 21:31:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- No need to apologise -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:12:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Not the hinduism, the insults -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:50:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well said, Deborah. Thanks. [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:47:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Well said, Deborah. Thanks. [nt] -:- Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 01:33:18 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave }( -:- Beyond of all beyonds -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:36:56 (EST)

__ __ __ reflection -:- Re: Beyond of all beyonds -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:07:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- No you don't -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:15:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Dave, Mirror is not a ghost -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:47:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Yes but the philosophy is -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:00:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ reflection -:- Re: No you don't -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:44:06 (EST)

__ __ Tony Tundra -:- What the hell is a 'conceptual reality'? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:46:04 (EST)

__ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: What the hell is a 'conceptual reality'? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:44:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Tony Tundra -:- I see... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:23:35 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Circular nonsense. -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:11:47 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Joe, Mirror is an expremie -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:13:30 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- sometimes u gotta use a leash -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:10:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- But Mirror IS an ex and has made that known.... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:45:04 (EST)

__ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Circular nonsense. -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:08:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, you sound like a premie -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:31:42 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Don't you feel a tad contradictory? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:52:49 (EST)

__ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 18:11:38 (EST)

Proud Premie Ji -:- So what that we love Maharaji -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 21:42:26 (EST)

__ Proud -:- WHAT ABOUT BLISS? -:- Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 00:05:04 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- Re: WHAT ABOUT BLISS??? -:- Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 00:21:39 (EST)

__ Gail -:- Re: So what that the Cult is leaving you -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:06:31 (EST)

__ Gail -:- Re: So what that we love Maharaji -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:00:54 (EST)

__ wolfie -:- too many satgurus -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:15:18 (EST)

__ Mirror -:- Re: Devotion -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:37:30 (EST)

__ janet -:- Re: he doesnt deserve it -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:46:44 (EST)

__ Thelma the Church lady -:- By his grace, that's just so precious [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:42:58 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- I think your feelings are really beautiful -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:38:21 (EST)

__ __ ChrisP -:- To Premie Ji: -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:23:07 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- ****Best Of**** nice post, ChrisP [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 20:37:51 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Just two questions -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:51:54 (EST)

__ __ Another PPJ -:- So why do you call yourself Jethro? -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:56:30 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- FYI -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:10:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- PS to another PPJ -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:14:11 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- If you were really THAT proud -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:47:51 (EST)

__ __ This is totally -:- beyond belief!!! -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:01:47 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- You must learn to -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:12:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ A completely realised PPJ -:- errr...right Edd... umm..Jethro -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:26:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- WOW 3 premies in one night! -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:44:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CRPJ -:- Re: WOW 3 premies in one night! -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:09:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- to CRPJ -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:37:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ I am guilty by ommission? -:- In that case... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:38:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jethro, you're talking to David Roupell -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:53:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Jethro, you're talking to David Roupell -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:31:02 (EST)

Amaroo(HAJ) statistics -:- from a cult member on Life be Great -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 13:58:27 (EST)

__ Sunday Funnies -:- A new use for Amaroo... -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 14:56:32 (EST)

__ __ Dickie Pwkie -:- The Divine City at last! -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:59:37 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- it's so obvious -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:57:52 (EST)

__ __ PatW -:- Re: A new use for Amaroo... -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 17:53:19 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC-----Don't thank Thelma -:- It's Chuck's work, PatW :C) [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 19:12:24 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- LOL -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 15:31:29 (EST)

Dermot -:- About 'Quiet' -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 01:22:47 (EST)

__ Abi -:- Quiet is Ok with me -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 02:15:36 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Quiet is NOT ok with me -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:01:17 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Quiet is NOT ok with me -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:26:54 (EST)

__ Livia -:- Re: About 'Quiet' -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 11:09:50 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- Thanks Livia -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:44:08 (EST)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Thanks Livia -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:25:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ |D Catweasel|D -:- Re: Thanks Livia -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:00:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- CW, you must gave been drunk.... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:36:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ The admirable doctor -:- I can help -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:31:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, thanks, David. Nice sentiments -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:18:56 (EST)

Livia -:- a bit of technical help please! -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:58:52 (EST)

__ Opie -:- Can be done via Word actually ... -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:55:28 (EST)

__ A little simpler -:- way of explaining it. -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 11:02:48 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- Re: a bit of technical help please! -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 21:09:53 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Re: a bit of technical help please! -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:05:52 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- Re: a bit of technical help -go here! -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 03:13:03 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Looks like you need my HTML course -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 06:13:15 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- oop-correction!! -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 03:21:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Thanx!!! -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 10:36:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Word - HTML test -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:34:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ janet the nitpicker -:- Re: HTML error -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:23:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: HTML error -:- Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:49:35 (EST)

Suedoula -:- Alan Watts on Gurus -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:06:44 (EST)

__ A friend -:- More Alan Watts pickpocketing your own watch -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 01:26:56 (EST)

__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: More Alan Watts pickpocketing your own watch -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 08:54:44 (EST)

Dave Punshon -:- Muktanada -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 15:47:37 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Thanks, Dave -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:13:38 (EST)

gerry -:- Um, ah.....(OT-about donations) -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:52:42 (EST)

__ Richard -:- No gerry . . . -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 15:31:10 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- About that twenty bucks, Ger -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 17:03:20 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Second fiddle again... -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:00:31 (EST)

gerry -:- Opposing Views -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 13:25:43 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Re: Opposing Views -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 21:22:18 (EST)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- An opposing views -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 06:34:22 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Opposing Views -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 17:57:15 (EST)

__ __ Cat WOLVE -:- Answer this:) -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:00:40 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- To: Catweasal... -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:19:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Catweasel:P:P:P:P:P:P:P -:- Re: To: Catweasal... -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 23:53:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ DR -:- Whaaaht?? -:- Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:23:53 (EST)

__ __ Francesca :~) -:- The wet wood thing -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:31:11 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- ''By His Grace''~) -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:04:28 (EST)

__ Francesca :~) -:- The premise or assumption fails -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:33:01 (EST)

__ Jim -:- My answer from LG -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:11:47 (EST)

__ John G -:- This guy is slick-a 'takeover man'?? -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 13:46:10 (EST)

Livia -:- A parallel..... -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:59:33 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Yes, and here's another -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 12:46:12 (EST)

__ __ Livia -:- The need for certainty -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:52:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Yeah, right on Livia [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 22:50:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- That's it in a nutshell -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST)

gerry -:- The Quiet Troll -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:46:04 (EST)

The Maharaji of Malibu -:- is more like dentist/doctor than lawyer -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:00:11 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Rolling with the punches..... -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 18:51:38 (EST)

__ Beverly -:- Re: dwindling -:- Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:39:01 (EST)

Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:10:54 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: All Subject: Are there any good religions? Message:

This is kind of On Topic but I posted it in the Sat Chit Chatroom because it was a response to John T over there. If you like arguing about religion come over and add your two-cents worth. I'm hoping for a good fight which I miss now that they are verboten over here and religion is a sure bet for a barny. [ Are there any good religions? ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:37:27 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: PatC Subject: (Christian) Jehovahs Witnesses of course Message:

I'n surprised you haven't heard the Good News.....anyway, now that I've got your attention and you're pinned against the wall, may I tell you more about it? It'll only take a few hours.... :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:39:55 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I posted above on SatC and it appeared here? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 19:37:17 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Real people or Harvey the Rabbit? Message:

What brought me to Knowledge Magdeline from Eureka in California looks back on 21 years with Knowledge I realised today that on July 20, 2002, I will have had Knowledge for twenty one years. Sometimes it has been challenging for me to practise and be commited to Maharaji and Knowledge as I am a people pleaser. Yes, what a dilemna! Real people or your imaginary friend 'within inside'. The ones close to me including my family have never had an understanding of why this means so much to me. I am easily swayed by people's perceptions and tend to have low self worth if I am not as successful as them. Success? What kind of success might be available to someone like this? I'm sorry, don't mean to be mean, but really, this poor woman has hamstrung herself entirely with this imaginary friend stuff. But when I go inside or listen to Maharaji I feel completely loved and accepted in a way that I have never felt like from anyone else in my 48 years on this planet. I need to learn that this could be enough for me and let go of my attachments to people who only stress me out, as I feel that many have a fear of aging or a fear of being alone. My father lived alone for many years so I could also say it's a genetic thing.(There I go again having to explain my choices to others when it's not necessary.) Yes, Madelaine, it's probably a genetic thing. Most humans have it unfortunately. We're social by nature, girl. Too bad your cult programming's left you feeling obliged to fight it. I also know that truly, I am not alone and I have trust in myself that this Life within has always been there and always will be. That's for sure ... right up until the moment you die you will always be alive. Good one.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 21:52:31 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Subject: These musings are disturbing Message:

It is really sad to see that premies are still battling these mind-fucks for over 30 years. The premies blame it in on the staganation and refusal to accept Maha's revisions. But I disagree. This is a product of Maha's success.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:04:03 (EST) From: JHB Email: jhb@ex-premie.org To: All Subject: New Journey and White Pages Entries Message:

Victor (formerly known as Bob) Joseph has written his short but sweet journey, and he, as well as Mike Finch, Melissa Magee, and Janet Meldrum have submitted new White Pages entries. Joy Jaber has updated her entry including her email address. There are currently 159 White pages entries, and 84 journeys. John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:25:10 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: All Subject: NOTICE TO ALL PERSONS CALLED GERRY Message:

Just a suggestion but why not put a link from the top of this forum to The ANYTHING GOES forum (linked above) and write a bit of blurb about it being a free-for-all and completely uncensored and unmoderated place etc. [ The ANYTHING GOES forum ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:58:28 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I see it! I see it! Message:

OK I'll do it soon. I'm a little busy right now. Your post looks funny now I've removed mine. Ah the perks of power...

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 08:40:27 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: I've retired from Lifes Great Message:

It's obvious that attempting to debate with Roupell, Cat, Lou, WH and the like is a waste of time. Their minds are closed. But I had this romantic notion that there were lurkers who could benefit from reading the rational ex-premie point of view. It then occurred to me that there probably aren't any lurkers as the site isn't advertised anywhere apart from on ex-premie sites. So although I'll look in from time to time, I've decided to leave them to their backwater. John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:07:42 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: JHB Subject: Here's your gold ''EIYDHIWT'' watch Message:

John, I had the same idea many moons ago but soon realized that the only link on the entire net to LG was from EPO or Maharaji Watch. I also began to suspect that Roupell made most of the posts under his multiple personalities and he already knows the score but has dug his heels in. The joint stinks. There really aren't sincere premies over there. Most are professional trolls and cult apologists.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 18:32:43 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: PatC Subject: OK, I give up Message:

EIYDHIWT:- Even in your darkest hour I will t......? John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 19:52:56 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: JHB Subject: EIYDHIWNAY?..... Message:

Even in your darkest hour I will Tryannize you? Take you for what you have? Try to keep you programmed? Train you in your propagation Duty To Me? The list goes on and on.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:39:27 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: EIYDHIWNAY?.... Message:

Sorry I forgot the last few words of that great peice of Maharajism and just left it dangling.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:08:40 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: JHB Subject: Cognitive Dissonance... Message:

Hi John, Congratulations. You probably alread know about cognitive dissonance, but I thought I'd provide this link which explains why programmed premies or any cult member cannot discuss the issues cogently. That's why I won't be conversing with any of the usual pests here anymore. Period. It only serves to feed the beast. The beast being the collective of characters who come here to disrupt and demean. I am posting this in full awareness that some of these ''beasts'' may stalk me around the this forum. Best, Cynthia [ Cognitive Dissonance ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:57:17 (EST) From: Cynthia....about the above Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: link re: Cognitive Dissonance... Message:

It's been brought to my attention that the above link which I provided is not exactly what it appears. It's right-wing, and I am very sorry for posting it without thoroughly reading the site. It doesn't reflect my POV at all. I should have read the entire site before posting it. My mistake. I read about Cognitivie Dissonance and trusted the site...my mistake, my apologies... Best, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:10:24 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Cynthia, have you read the rest of the site? Message:

They believe that the media, particularly film and television, are practicing cult like mind control on the population to create a pro-liberal, anti-Christian Conservative popular opinion. They appear to be anti-gay too. Even the page you link to starts off appearing to be an objective discussion of cognitive dissonance but then claim that liberals are all suffering from it. An example they give is the 'contradictory' positions of being pro-choice and anti-capital punishment. John I must be a brainwashed liberal to dislike that site so much.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:54:57 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: JHB Subject: Yikes John! Sorry... Message:

John, I admit, I didn't read the entire site. I guess I need another time out. I agree with you completely. I read Festinger's theory of--OOPS! a real typo, lol 'Cognacive'...I'll start again: I read Festinger's theory of Cognitive Dissonance; it was discussed here before. I guess I didn't pay enough attention to that discussion either. I thought it made a lot of sense. If it's a theory being used to unsavory purposes, well, I just have to do more research on this. I just did a quick surf through the various sites which discuss it, including anti-cult sites. I also went to a main ''Festinger'' site--all the links came back to the site I posted above. Hmmmp! Hmmmmp! Jeeze, I'm sorry. I need to pay attention to these types of sites because wording is used that could be confusing in some cases. Plus, they have a lot of pages with deceiving titles. My mistake, mea culpa... This is particularly embarrassing because I am a died-in the-wool liberal. Shit! EeeeeK! I'm going to make a reference to it above. Soreeeey, Cynthia, who needs to roll in the snow:)

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:27:09 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: I've retired from Lifes Great Message:

Yes John, we cannot save anyone from themselves. Taking up the battle with our own concepts, is the challenge of a lifetime. We can only fight this battle ourselves. This is what the true story of Arjun in the Bhagawad Gita means to me. Not everyone is 'ready' for what lies beyond 'knowledge', and no one but myself alone could have decided that I was ready when I was. During the period of practicing knowledge, I falsly believed that I was addressing my concepts. What really happened though was a comfortable indulgence in a conceptual reality. The true surrender of concepts only started when I broke free. This, however, is so painful and difficult. Not exactly something you can talk someone into. The dreamy story that there is such thing as causeless happiness (quote M: 'happiness is not a consequence'), available to you through a certain formula (master+satelite+donation), sounds so much more alluring right? The realization that this so called causeless happiness needed some secret formula to become available to me, was the obvious contradiction that would finally force me to wake up after years of hushing up the discomfort of this contradiction. Happiness doesn't come in secret formulas. Happiness is freely accessible always, to everyone, without any technique, without any formula. All else is a conceptual strategy in an attempt to capture happiness, to imprison happiness, to patent happiness, to own happiness. Life doesn't work that way. Happiness is the next door neighbour to Suffering. We cannot have one without the other, though we try to avoid suffering through indulgence in our conceptual realities. I appreciate all your efforts at reasonable dialogue. If anything, you should value yourself for that and write for the sheer fun of the challenge. Your integrity is great, your openness contagious. Mirror

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 21:31:08 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Apology offered for rude remarks Message:

Hi Mirror, You've been here for two months, haven't you? And you've posted many good posts and many exes have responded to you. Than, all of a sudden, you make a point based on a so called 'premie myth' and suddenly you're chastized and slung derogatory insults. Furthermore, the leap to calling you an apologetic premie, is something that just baffles me. How that conclusion was derived from your post, is beyond me. I'm sorry you had your well intentioned post attacked and would like to apologize on behalf of everyone who posted here, it was simply rude and uncalled for. Any uncertainty about your post or message could have been handled tactfully. Believe me, it's not the tone of the forum at place here, it is the tone of the posters. cheers, deborah, who hopes you let this slide off your back, where it belongs

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:12:26 (EST) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Deborah Subject: No need to apologise Message:

Read Joe's post and you'll see that there is a great distaste for the Hindu philosophy here. If people come here to preach that philosophy, as Mirror has done, they can expect to get short thrift. To expect less is naive.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:50:53 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: Not the hinduism, the insults Message:

Mirror was attacked as if she was a deliberate troll. And you referred to her as just being a 'ghost', Sir Dave. How could we use the same word for a 'ghost'. My understanding of 'ghost' is one who is so fearful and insecure, that they have to reduce themselves to a non-existent entities in order to be an apologist, insult someone, or flame the forum. My understanding of a premie is, someone who is still worshipping Maha, and accepting his doctrine as sound, and his history as being abouve the law or divinely ordained. Mirror has a real name and has used it in her journey which was just posted in the white papers last week. She sent me an email weeks ago and told me her real name. How many definitions for a troll, a premie, or a ghost do we need to keep track of, Sir Dave. I also said in the post, that people could have used tact to address their concerns with her post. Therefore, an opportunity for people to express their disdain for hinduism would have had a chance to be addressed. Why does my opinion that the exes can be unnecessarily rude always bring out such volatile reactions from the exes? I've seen real trolls get more respect.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:47:02 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Well said, Deborah. Thanks. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 01:33:18 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: PatC Subject: Well said, Deborah. Thanks. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:36:56 (EST) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Beyond of all beyonds Message:

Ha ha ha - that's a good one! ''Beyond knowledge''. Ha ha ha, that'll do their heads in. No, we're not ready for it. I think I'll stick to trying to survive and keep my children fed and clothed. Does anyone know what you're talking about? I doubt it.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:07:52 (EST) From: reflection Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: Re: Beyond of all beyonds Message:

yes, i know.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:15:55 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: reflection Subject: No you don't Message:

You're just a ghost, like Mirror. Not a real person on this forum at all. Nothing about who you are, your life, your hardships and trials, pleasures and pain, your successes and achievements and loves and hates. Are you like Mirror and all theory and hogwash? Are you even on this planet?

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 17:47:55 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Dave, Mirror is not a ghost Message:

Mirror is the handle that Mira Bartmans uses on the net. She is an expremie and a gentlewoman.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:00:22 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: PatC Subject: Yes but the philosophy is Message:

and the Hindu philosophy is worse than useless. Christ, I should know, I practiced it diligently for eleven years and it is worse than useless - it is dangerous and completely impossible to uphold. The reason being that it's based upon theory which is not true and quite impossible to practise. I consider Hindu philosophy to be pure poison. Nothing less.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:44:06 (EST) From: reflection Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: No you don't Message:

im very much in this planet. and i have a long list of hardships, trials, pleasures and pains. it hasnt been easy . and i dont like theories. i only believe in myself, and whatever i experience.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:46:04 (EST) From: Tony Tundra Email: None To: Mirror Subject: What the hell is a 'conceptual reality'? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:44:52 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: Tony Tundra Subject: Re: What the hell is a 'conceptual reality'? Message:

A reality you have convinced yourself of is the truth, despite evidence to the contrary. Example: 'my husband doesn't cheat' (with another woman's lipstick on his shirt). M's world is a good example of living in such a mental construct, in my view. Mirror

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:23:35 (EST) From: Tony Tundra Email: None To: Mirror Subject: I see... Message:

So, in other words, a conceptual reality can be a form of denial. Thanks, Mirror. TT :o

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 13:11:47 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Circular nonsense. Message:

Taking up the battle with our own concepts, is the challenge of a lifetime. Who told you that? And what is a 'concept?' Why does one need to 'battle' them? And why isn't the above statement just another big 'concept' that you have to battle? You guys, and your incoherent 'master' just talk in circles and think it's profound. That's how you get stuck in a cult. More bullshit: Life doesn't work that way. Happiness is the next door neighbour to Suffering. We cannot have one without the other, though we try to avoid suffering through indulgence in our conceptual realities. Yes, do tell us all how "life works," oh arrogant wise one. And I completely reject this puritanical, Hindu, destructive idea about the wheel of pleasure and pain. What a load of crap. Does your "master" still preach that Hindu drivel?

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:13:30 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, Mirror is an expremie Message:

As I've said before, eventhough I may not agree with certain spiritual exes such as Deputy Dog and Steve Mueller, I don't believe in re-educating people about the evils of New Ageism. It makes me happy enough to know that they are no longer enslaved to a fraudulent Hindu businessman. The rest they will work out for themselves.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 22:10:46 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: PatC Subject: sometimes u gotta use a leash Message:

As I've said before, even though I may not agree with certain spiritual exes such as Deputy Dog and Steve Mueller, I don't believe in re-educating people about the evils of New Ageism. It makes me happy enough to know that they are no longer enslaved to a fraudulent Hindu businessman. The rest they will work out for themselves. --- --- --- --- - Well, in Dog's case it is not clear whether he is truly an ex or indeed ever a 'premie', at least in a conventional sense. As recently as a month ago he informed me that he still goes to local video/satellite events and derives inspiration from Maharaji's shpiel. In other words, all the information shared/reported about Maharaji here and on EPO means as much to him today as Maharaji's actual instructions to his followers twenty-five years ago. We are talking serious disconnect here. That's why I've been so hot on his tail. It is totally disingenuous (not to mention annoying) of him to come here and criticize the occasional spleen venting and then spout all his Landmark Forum crapola in a deluded sense that he is 'helping'. And it is indeed crapola in the sense that he's been spouting this stuff for ages without any noticeable corresponding qualitative improvement in his own life. I don't fool myself by thinking I'm re-educating him but to let him continue his charade unchallenged is a disservice to all of us, Dog included.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 23:45:04 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Pullaver Subject: But Mirror IS an ex and has made that known.... Message:

...on her website and she also has revealed exactly who she is so Dave is wrong to call her a ghost. A person's religion is none of my business including Dog's but I am sorry to hear that he still wants eat his cake and keep it too. I thought he had gotten rid of the massa's leash.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:08:10 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Circular nonsense. Message:

Err... I'm not sure I'm following you? I appreciate your efforts to speak for yourself. I can only do the same. As far as this 'master' you refer to is concerned, I don't have one. I wonder what gave you that idea? Right now the only master I have is this conversation, in terms of what I learn from it. Next will probably be an argument with my husband, who is annoyed that I spend time at my computer instead of on the couch. I guess I'm gonna curl up there for now, until your 'concept' that I respond to some kind of 'master' has been shot down by your poisonous arrows. Mirror

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:31:42 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Sorry, you sound like a premie Message:

So I assumed you are one, but apparently you are not. But, nonetheless, it is largely Hindu/Maharajism ideology you espoused, which I rejected along with him.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 12:52:49 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? Message:

Mirror, I agree with everything you say except for your bizarre effort to tie this common sense wisdom -- which, let's face it, is really all it is -- to something as irrelevant and inscrutable as an ancient hindu religious allegory. First, do you, who apparently prides yourself on jettisoning conceptual shells of reality, really know what, if anything, really happened between Krishna and Arjuna? Do you really even know if two such people existed? Do you really know what the hell any of that bizarre story was meant to explain if anything? Who wrote it? What gave them the authority to try to explain the cosmic workings of the universe? Do you know ANY of this? No, of course you don't. So what kind of an authority is that for you? Why bother?

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:14:36 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? Message:

Why would I care who existed in, wrote about, told, played or read the story I referred to? That was not the point I tried to make. I am surprised to see you still reading my posts, since we agreed earlier that you apparently do not care for my use of language. I guess M and his (ab)use of hindu traditions made you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your choice. Not mine. Mirror (traditional human)

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 18:11:38 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Re: Don't you feel a tad contradictory? Message:

Why would I care who existed in, wrote about, told, played or read the story I referred to? That was not the point I tried to make. Are you serious? Why wouldn't you care? Why invoke some authority which you don't believe in? If someone quotes a scripture for some proposition, they're supposedly finding some wisdom there. But, really, I took another look at what you wrote and have to say, Mirror, baby, wake up! Here's what you wrote: Not everyone is 'ready' for what lies beyond 'knowledge', and no one but myself alone could have decided that I was ready when I was. -- as much a tidy, neat, spiritual concept if I ever saw one. Who says there's something 'beyond' Knowledge? What does that mean anyway? Moreover, whoever said that no one but you could determine when you were ready for that whatever-it-is? To people who talk that way all the time it might not sound like much but when you're out of new age / spiritual waters for any length of time, that kind of talk stands out as a complete, cookie-cuttered concept. During the period of practicing knowledge, I falsely believed that I was addressing my concepts. What really happened though was a comfortable indulgence in a conceptual reality. Tell me about it. I am surprised to see you still reading my posts, since we agreed earlier that you apparently do not care for my use of language. I guess M and his (ause of hindu traditions made you throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your choice. Not mine. Mirror (traditional human) Naw, I read most everything. Lucky you, huh? :) Mirror, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. But, as they say in the Upanishads, we're just talking.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 21:42:26 (EST) From: Proud Premie Ji Email: None To: All Subject: So what that we love Maharaji Message:

Anybody can love Maharaji. New people can learn to love him. The master teaches about the bond between the student and the teacher; it's perfectly normal to love Maharaji, even if from afar, even if I will never met him. He gave me the knowledge of all knowledges, he is my friend, well, so I think he is. I'm appalled to read what you think about my master. I'm a old premie. I received K in the 70s. To me Maharaji is much more than just a meditation teacher, as he may be fpr the new premies. To me Maharaji is everything. He is the Lord. The devotion I feel for him cannot be described, and yes, we old premies are fortunate to see him that way. Too provocative? Yes. I would kiss his feet anytime. I'm not worthy. Now, you say here that all we premie feel in Maharaji's world we were programmed to feel it. In what way? I'm so happy to be a premie of the Lord of The Universe!!!

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Date: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 00:05:04 (EST) From: Proud Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: WHAT ABOUT BLISS? Message:

Isn't better to live our days smiling than empty? Because the only thing that fulfills my heaRT IS mAHARAJI'S BLISS. NOTHING compares. How is it that it works? Power of suggestion then?

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Date: Tues, Feb 26, 2002 at 00:21:39 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Proud Subject: Re: WHAT ABOUT BLISS??? Message:

Is it permanent or transient? Are you sure it is 'Maharajis' bliss? Isn't it YOURS? And you do realise Sai babites, mormons,this, that and the others offer the same argument? Doesn't that make you think it's a subjective experience not brought on by the OBJECT of devotion but by each individuals response to their own makebelieve 'god', 'religion' or whatever or whoever they pour forth their devotion and dedication to? Do you think some brain chemicals may be involved in all this, somehow or other.....and not MAHARAJI? :) PS ......what's this "empty" stuff? People without Maharaji are empty, you mean? ...

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:06:31 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: Re: So what that the Cult is leaving you Message:

You are on a sinking ship in the middle of the ocean of Maharaji's maya, my dear. As you have not clued in yet, let me help you. There is hardly anyone left. The broadcasts have been reduced in numbers. When do you get to see the Lard in person again? People are seeing the light. Why not you. It is more gracious for you to leave the cult than to have the cult leave you, n'est pas? All the best!

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 15:00:54 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: Re: So what that we love Maharaji Message:

Your biggest problem, PPJ, is that you still believe he is the Lord. If he is, then everyone should bow down and pay homage. However, there is mounting evidence to prove he is not! I felt just the way you do for about 36 hours after stumbling onto this site. I was around from August, 1974 to June, 1998. I did have these feelings but they weren't based upon anything as the facts on this site prove. We wanted to believe these fairy tales--so we did. We lost our sense of discrimination when it came to Maharaji and his trip. We lost our lives, too!

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:15:18 (EST) From: wolfie Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: too many satgurus Message:

Oh, maybe you are an idiot? I think at least, this would be better than to think you are not worthy. In respect for your mental health, I think you are joking with what you wrote, if not, don't tell your Mom about it you would cause a lot of missunderstanding for her. Hope you are joking, if not look for a true friend and talk about your 'Perfect Master Problem' Life is the same with or without Maharaji, the only difference is, there is one person less that bucks shouts and screams and I have to listen to. Those were the days my friend we thought they never end, we sing and dance for ever and a day ...............wolfie

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 06:37:30 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: Re: Devotion Message:

Anybody can love Maharaji. Mind you, not just anybody! Only those who are willing to fit into the parameters that Maharaji sets. Only those who are willing to distrust their own inner guidance and are open to and in need of loving a master like Maharaji. It is safe to love him for as long as one believes that Maharaji is what one takes him to be. To insure this sense of safety, mind and intuition must be properly trained and conditioned, something both student and master work hard at. It takes enormous courage to outgrow this self willed conditioning. Maybe many of us never will. Growing is difficult, growing is painful. Sometimes reality is too scary, especially if we distrust ourselves. Many of us choose to dream and never wake up. I wish you sweet dreams. I wish you sweet awakenings. I wish you your own self to love first and foremost, in whatever form you choose. It is always your own choice, and no one can take that away from you. Every moment is a new opportunity to choose. Mirror

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:46:44 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: Re: he doesnt deserve it Message:

you are not a person to maharaji. he doesnt care about you for yourself.he doesnt value any individual for themselves. given the choice to spend the rest of his life on a desert island with you, he would think little of your company. that aint love. that aint even like. in his case, its not even tolerance of the ordinary person. what you call love is not love. real love is person to person, committed, knowing. he isnt committed to you. and you think you're commited to him, but the him you are committed to is your imagination of him. you don't know him as he really is, and he has gone to great lengths to be sure that you never do. I once said what you say. i held on. i chased after him. i beleived. and he firmly and angrily pushed me farther and farther away, with the annoyance you display toward getting peanut butter off your hands, making it clear that he couldnt care less what i was, who i was, what i did, felt, thought, needed, knew. it took me a long time to finally get it, but get it, I did. notice how the real issue of this thread got hijacked into a pissing match between you and jethro, and conveniently went completely off of maharaji? notice how that handily pushed an equal number of important posts into the inactive bin and off the readable forum? i noticed. so, just to make sure this duscussion stays on the issue of maharaji and not on your pissing contest, i inserted this poignant commentary before the whole rest of the waste of space. your love for him is no better than the teenager's obsession with cute rock stars. it's self hype. it isnt a real relationship. its all fantasy and escape. they will never personally be known to their idols, never have a relationship with them, but will make them millionaires. in the process of clamoring. and imagining they have a relationship with them. when you realize what the idol really thinks of being stuck with one of their fans, hopefully, it smacks you in the face. and you grow up, overnight. oh-- and that knowledge he showed you? he doesnt use it, himself,. his daddy left a letter saying he wanted the family product to be sold by his sons after he died, so prem did what the old man asked him to. aside from flying, its the only thing he knows how to do, to make a living., he didnt finish high school, after all, and has no career training, so any other line of work is unthinkable. and its pretty easy, just opening your mouth for an hour and blathering whatever pops into your head and collecting half a mil for it, and making a dvd aping the four things your old man showed you when you were 6 and witholding it from people until they swear their lives to you. piece of cake. 'that ain working! that's the way ya do it! money for nothing and your chicks for free'

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:42:58 (EST) From: Thelma the Church lady Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: By his grace, that's just so precious [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:38:21 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: I think your feelings are really beautiful Message:

and there is no.. BUT ! I like devotion. Its simple, sweet, naive, trusting.. and all good qualities ! I think that the state of devotion is a very precious one. Continue to enjoy it... it is expensive and beautiful. I still have theose feelings. Precious and beyond price. Good luck. Loafie

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:23:07 (EST) From: ChrisP Email: None To: Loaf Subject: To Premie Ji: Message:

Hi Premie Ji. I'm actually glad for you that you are deriving enjoyment from Knowledge and feeling gratitude to M. I say that because I felt the same beautiful feelings for many years as a premie. Actually, today would be my 28th anniversary of receiving K. Myself, not wanting to disturb that nice experience, I never bothered to read EPO for a long time. 'I'm appalled to read what you think about my master.' So what do I think now? I gradually became disillusioned with the cult-like tactics of the organization around Mj as well as the unnecessary personality idolization (I thought a little less arrogance would greatly suit him, even if he is the master). Over the last year, a series of unanswered questions (I won't go into them here unless you ask me to) rose to a point of unacceptability for me, and after the KIT training session I decided to check out what the ex-premies had to say for a change. The explanations passed from the organization and other premies smacked too much of being a one-sided untested cliché to hold water any longer for me. I started reading EPO posts last fall with a very objective viewpoint - 'they better be convincing'. Like you, I was also put off initially by the scoffing sarcasm. But my questions and disillusions (drips) were burning strong enough to sit me through that initial reaction and read on. I started with Michael Dettmers' posts as I knew he would be a credible, intelligent source who worked closely with M for many years and could tell us a little more of what the real Mj, the man behind the scenes, was really like. Then I read the reports of how Jagdeo's pedophile activities and Mj's hit and run accident were dealt with. Then I read John Macgregor's post, another credible behind-the-scenes witness. The next day I sent an email message to Mj asking him to reply directly to me on what he himself had to say about all this. I specified I needed a relevant answer from him, not just another line like 'What you seek and dig up is what you will find', or 'Seek perfection only in Knowledge, not in me or my organization' - these lines are simply not good enough any more. I ended the message saying if he doesn't respond to me, then I will consider the accusations true and will withdraw my support for him and Elan Vital. To this day, I have still not received a reply. Since then I've been reading about cults and mind control techniques, as well as reading the thoughts and understandings of other posters here on the Forum. I see it as a very healthy thing to do, since true questioning and reasoning is what digs beneath surface lies. The premies I knew were unwilling to engage me on this, but here it is allowed. To you and other premies coming here for the first time, my advice is you won't and don't have to agree with everyone and everything said here. There are many diverse viewpoints expressed here. You can be as selective as you like in your reading. But I heartily encourage you, if you do have something to question that doesn't sit right with you, to not be afraid to dig into it and examine something you suspect is an 'untruth'. The experience of Knowledge was never meant to repress our human right to question and to derive our OWN conclusions. If you have any questions you'd like to ask here, please feel free to do so. I'll understand if you don't want to discredit Mj and Knowledge - we're both allowed to choose what we believe. All the best, ChrisP

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 20:37:51 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: ChrisP Subject: ****Best Of**** nice post, ChrisP [nt] Message:

Hi Premie Ji. I'm actually glad for you that you are deriving enjoyment from Knowledge and feeling gratitude to M. I say that because I felt the same beautiful feelings for many years as a premie. Actually, today would be my 28th anniversary of receiving K. Myself, not wanting to disturb that nice experience, I never bothered to read EPO for a long time. 'I'm appalled to read what you think about my master.' So what do I think now? I gradually became disillusioned with the cult-like tactics of the organization around Mj as well as the unnecessary personality idolization (I thought a little less arrogance would greatly suit him, even if he is the master). Over the last year, a series of unanswered questions (I won't go into them here unless you ask me to) rose to a point of unacceptability for me, and after the KIT training session I decided to check out what the ex-premies had to say for a change. The explanations passed from the organization and other premies smacked too much of being a one-sided untested cliché to hold water any longer for me. I started reading EPO posts last fall with a very objective viewpoint - 'they better be convincing'. Like you, I was also put off initially by the scoffing sarcasm. But my questions and disillusions (drips) were burning strong enough to sit me through that initial reaction and read on. I started with Michael Dettmers' posts as I knew he would be a credible, intelligent source who worked closely with M for many years and could tell us a little more of what the real Mj, the man behind the scenes, was really like. Then I read the reports of how Jagdeo's pedophile activities and Mj's hit and run accident were dealt with. Then I read John Macgregor's post, another credible behind-the-scenes witness. The next day I sent an email message to Mj asking him to reply directly to me on what he himself had to say about all this. I specified I needed a relevant answer from him, not just another line like 'What you seek and dig up is what you will find', or 'Seek perfection only in Knowledge, not in me or my organization' - these lines are simply not good enough any more. I ended the message saying if he doesn't respond to me, then I will consider the accusations true and will withdraw my support for him and Elan Vital. To this day, I have still not received a reply. Since then I've been reading about cults and mind control techniques, as well as reading the thoughts and understandings of other posters here on the Forum. I see it as a very healthy thing to do, since true questioning and reasoning is what digs beneath surface lies. The premies I knew were unwilling to engage me on this, but here it is allowed. To you and other premies coming here for the first time, my advice is you won't and don't have to agree with everyone and everything said here. There are many diverse viewpoints expressed here. You can be as selective as you like in your reading. But I heartily encourage you, if you do have something to question that doesn't sit right with you, to not be afraid to dig into it and examine something you suspect is an 'untruth'. The experience of Knowledge was never meant to repress our human right to question and to derive our OWN conclusions. If you have any questions you'd like to ask here, please feel free to do so. I'll understand if you don't want to discredit Mj and Knowledge - we're both allowed to choose what we believe. All the best, ChrisP ---

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:51:54 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: Just two questions Message:

You are a rare premie here that will say that Maharaji is The Lord. Does that mean that he can behave in any way he wants? If you were really a proud premie who love'd their Lord, you would not post anonymously.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:56:30 (EST) From: Another PPJ Email: None To: Jethro Subject: So why do you call yourself Jethro? Message:

That's posting anonymously Mr Fisher. Unbelievable!

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:10:18 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Another PPJ Subject: FYI Message:

I changed my name by deedpoll in 1996. So who are you then? And by the way what is your opinion about Maharaji's handling of the Jagdeo affair? Jethro

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:14:11 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Jethro Subject: PS to another PPJ Message:

Now apologize!!!

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 22:47:51 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Proud Premie Ji Subject: If you were really THAT proud Message:

you wouod not be anonymous.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:01:47 (EST) From: This is totally Email: None To: Jethro Subject: beyond belief!!! Message:

MR ANONYMOUS tell you what. Ask your forum administration to have a detailed explanation on the top header of this forum explaining the meaning of the word HYPOCRITE

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:12:16 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: This is totally Subject: You must learn to Message:

control your wild horses.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:26:03 (EST) From: A completely realised PPJ Email: None To: Jethro Subject: errr...right Edd... umm..Jethro Message:

Just keep the vaseline handy for when the friction builds up!

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:44:49 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: A completely realised PPJ Subject: WOW 3 premies in one night! Message:

Actually I have beautiful skin......but anyway I'll send you some preparation-H so that you can stop scratching. Since you are completely realised then you won't mind us lesser beings asking for your name. So who are you then? Are any of you REALLY proud? And by the way what is your opinion about Maharaji's handling of the Jagdeo affair? The others have ignored the question. Jethro

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:09:17 (EST) From: CRPJ Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: WOW 3 premies in one night! Message:

I dunno, What is your opinion about Mike Jeffrey's handling of the Carol Ciano affair - 30 years after Woodstock happened?

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 03:37:50 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: CRPJ Subject: to CRPJ Message:

As you probably don't realise, some us believe that the failure of Maharaji to deal with allegations of molestation of children and rape of at least one child by one of Maharaji's most senior repesentatives should be known to all those who are thinking of getting involved with Maharaji. You and the other premies who ignore this question are as guilty by ommission as is Maharaji. No doubt you are in agreement with the comments made by your peer catweasel to the raped victim, Abi. Premies continual refusal to address this and other issues is amply recorded on the net, for people to make ionformed decisions.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:38:03 (EST) From: I am guilty by ommission? Email: None To: Jethro Subject: In that case... Message:

you are hereby charged as guilty to being an accessory to the unsolved disappearance of Carol Ciano. What have you done about it Mr Justice? You don't give a monkey's arse about Carol Ciano do you? I think you moral zealots are going to refuse to deal with this issue. If so, A black mark will be recorded against your names in the annuls of the Supreme Headquarters of International Justice and Salvation for All lnstitute. We will be watching eagerly for your actions on this matter.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:53:42 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Jethro, you're talking to David Roupell Message:

Proud Premie Ji was another person with the apt browser named SPINWAY. The other posts were all made by David Roupell. Too funny I just read a post of his signed DR below claiming that he never posts over here anymore but that he was informed by someone else that he had been mentioned here. I think I prefer Proud Premie's honesty. Roupell lies with every word including AND and THE - pathological - oops, sorry, I'll be charitable - brains warped by belonging to twisted cult.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:31:02 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Jethro, you're talking to David Roupell Message:

'Too funny I just read a post of his signed DR below claiming that he never posts over here anymore but that he was informed by someone else that he had been mentioned here.' Well David Roupell or not, they are doing a great service towards the ex-premie cause by exuding their smelly egos all over the place. It's a beautiful day here and I just bought myself a new suit. Be well Jethro

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 13:58:27 (EST) From: Amaroo(HAJ) statistics Email: None To: All Subject: from a cult member on Life be Great Message:

A Short History Since 1992, Elan Vital Australia has hosted five international and regional conventions at Ivory's Rock Conference Centre. October 1992 It all began simply with a 4 day event in October of 1992. 3,500 people attended, coming mainly from Australia, Europe and North America. Most people stayed in hotels in the Brisbane and Ipswich areas, but a small contingent of 450 people stayed in site, pioneering camping at the conference centre. June 1993 A year later, a smaller regional convention took place in June. 2,000 people attended the three day event. This time 600 people camped and enjoyed the great outdoors. May 1994 3,200 people came to the convention in May 1994, and a much larger number of people chose to stay on site. September 1997 People came from all over the world to attend the convention in September 1997. It truly was a major international event, and even though most people came from Australia, Europe and North America, more than 60 countries were represented. The event was marked by the first use of the outdoor amphitheatre at Ivory's Rock Conference Centre which seated 4,500 people over the 4 days of the program. Over 1,300 people camped out under the Southern Cross enjoying the unique flavour of an Australian 'bush camping' experience. April 2001 The last international Elan Vital convention at Ivory’s Rock Conference Centre was in April 2001 and attracted more than 4600 attendees from 60 countries. The Conference Centre management described it as their most successful conference. Delegates enjoyed the break from daily routines in the great outdoors of southeast Queensland, with more than 1800 staying in high-class tent accommodation at the Sandy Creek campgrounds. The Pavilion, with its large dome, is the new hub of the Conference Centre. It was finished just in time for the conference, and featured food stalls and specialty shops. A large dome at the centre of the Pavilion offered a shady area to meet and eat. Each afternoon delegates gathered at the Amphitheatre with its spectacular view of Ivory’s Rock. The Amphitheatre was also upgraded in time for the convention, and offered new stage facilities and translation booths. Following the success of the 2001 conference Elan Vital has confirmed its intention to hold international conventions at Amaroo every year.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 14:56:32 (EST) From: Sunday Funnies Email: None To: Amaroo(HAJ) statistics Subject: A new use for Amaroo... Message:

Amaroo becomes profitable at last. [ Possible future for Amaroo...? ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:59:37 (EST) From: Dickie Pwkie Email: None To: Sunday Funnies Subject: The Divine City at last! Message:

I just knew all you winey loosers were wrong. My master Maharaji does have a plan to spread peace to the world. We've all been waiting 30 years and now that the time is perfect, the Divine City has begun. After practicing this morning, I phoned in my down payment in US funds for a cottage on Darshan Lane. I'm told by Kitty my broker that if I stand on the kitchen sink and lean way over I get a view of the planned Divine Residence. Thanks so much to Chuck for giving us a head's up on this. Otherwise I might have missed this blissful opportunity. Don't forget, if you're ever in the neighborhood, the door is always open. Dickie

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:57:52 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Sunday Funnies Subject: it's so obvious Message:

i dont know what's taking them so long to see it

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 17:53:19 (EST) From: PatW Email: None To: Sunday Funnies Subject: Re: A new use for Amaroo... Message:

This one's a printer! Nice work Thelma..

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 19:12:24 (EST) From: PatC-----Don't thank Thelma Email: None To: PatW Subject: It's Chuck's work, PatW :C) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 15:31:29 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Sunday Funnies Subject: LOL Message:

Great job, Sunday Funnies. Outdoor patio grill does double-duty as an Industrial-Strength Arti Tray. ...the perfect home for the avid Gopi! LOL!!!

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 01:22:47 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: All Subject: About 'Quiet' Message:

I actually haven't been following ALL Quiets posts and don't know all the ins and outs of the saga and I'm not trying to brush up anyone the wrong way or anything....BUT :) as far as I can see he or she is a lousy speller and keeps going on about being a student lawyer but I don't think I've come across any maliciousness on his part or any abusive behaviour and he's kept to the same handle throughout....or have I missed something? I just wonder why he's been deleted/banned and labelled a troll.Seems a bit harsh but maybe I don't have the full story. ?? Cheers Dermot

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 02:15:36 (EST) From: Abi Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Quiet is Ok with me Message:

Seems like a gentle enough soul to me.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:01:17 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Abi Subject: Quiet is NOT ok with me Message:

Seems like a gentle enough soul to me. --- Looks are deceiving. Interact with this person at your own risk, and please do not encourage this TROLL to post here as all its posts will be deleted. Also I am working on discovering this troll's identity so I can report it to it's internet service provider as some one who is harrassing our board.

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:26:54 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Quiet is NOT ok with me Message:

I wish I had no morals then I would post his emails to me. The guy is a game-player. He may not be an evil cult agent provocateur but his games and lies are extremely disdainful. Tidbit from emails: his explanation for using multiple aliases, ''I share the same computer in my office with twelve other expremies.'' That was said supposedly with a straight face. Maybe Abi is just more tolerant of sophomoric Aussie male humor.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 11:09:50 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: About 'Quiet' Message:

Hi Dermot, you were wondering about Quiet; well, my view for what it's worth is this. I've been reading virtually all the posts for quite a few weeks now, and every time Quiet posts, I get a funny feeling. He suddenly appeared one day, and after he received the customary welcome, omitted to go on to describe himself or tell his story in any shape or form. If he had bothered to read the suggestions on EPO as to how to join in the discussion here, he would have read that it's a bit like entering a room full of people who know each other. It's no more than general politeness to introduce yourself and approach the people already there in a friendly manner. Instead of any of this, he arrived with what appeared to be all guns blazing, and launched immediately into ideas of how to trip M up in a legal sense. It just seemed odd to me. Someone else appeared at around the same time with the name of Subdeo. This person seemed very similar, and made exactly the same spelling mistakes. As soon as it was suggested that they were the same person, Subdeo denied it but then vanished never to return. Every time Quiet appears, the thread quickly degenerates into a generally petty and off-topic long-winded argument, contributing nothing whatsoever of any value to anyone here is is genuinely attempting to deconstruct in a mutually supportive manner what can be up to 30 years of cult think. Quiet doesn't add to this in any shape or form. The one time he really seemed to become excited was when there was a discussion a few weeks ago of how to get some of this into the press. Someone said that this shouldn't really be discussed openly on a public forum. Quiet immediately objected strongly and insisted loudly that the discussion should indeed take place openly on the forum. This set alarm bells ringing for me and I immediately felt he was probably a premie troll whose agenda here is to distract with meaningless and irrelevant debate and also as an 'agent provocateur'. And he still hasn't told his story. When exactly did he receive K? From whom? Where did he live during all his years as a premie? When did he exit? Was it as a result of reading EPO? What does he feel strongly about? After all, he should be feeling strongly about something to want to bring Maharaji down using the legal system. Or I could be completely wrong and Quiet is just an extrememly irritating, self-seeking, narcissistic idiot who enjoys wasting everyone's time here. Cannot he not see that for those reasons alone he deserves to be deleted? With love, Livia

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:44:08 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Livia Subject: Thanks Livia Message:

Hi Livia Well, when you explain it so clearly, as you've just done, I definitely see your point. Maybe I've had my eye off the ball in this case...... .....and you're right, an ex with a lawsuit agenda would surely make himself and his history more known to fellow exes before trying to embroil them in some action(s)that could backfire with negative consequences. Well, Quiet has settled in to posting over on Sir D's forum and the onus is surely on him to explain himself..... Oh well.....thanks for your post. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 01:25:35 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: Thanks Livia Message:

I have to say I'm suss of our little friend.It's a really piss-poor effort at infiltrating the gates of MORDOR.Shit,we are a lot better than that! Apart from myself and DR you never even know we are here!())And a big cheerio to Bazz:hey ,what a guy! (I'm just a little concerned about him being told by PatC that he had the Headjob when he was FA.):)

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 07:00:26 (EST) From: |D Catweasel|D Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: Thanks Livia Message:

Hey Pat, he said you just told him to keep his head down and keep WORKIN!:p:p:p:p What I am saying is that you have 'ghosts' in your midst who you know and trust here on F7~) I think M/s Quiet is a little too unreal.Too doopsy to be true?

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 04:36:16 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: CW, you must gave been drunk.... Message:

....when you wrote the above post. I just read a perfectly sane post of yours on LG that you wrote a while ago. Either you are a binge boozer, have multiple personality disorder or there is more than one of you because I can't make head nor tail of what your above post means. Would you care to decode it?

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 09:31:10 (EST) From: The admirable doctor Email: None To: PatC Subject: I can help Message:

He means what you already know but don't really want to look at too closely. Come on, you know damn well we ARE that brillinat. Littel nats that we are.... (;)) (;)) (:)) (:)) That we are, too, in miriad forms and personalities, right in your midst, as trusted and loyal servants to the cause. Why not? Much of what you (we) speak is true. One day we will rip our rubber masks off though, and after the shock you will see the true faces of love and laughter before you. And we will all join together in a holy and memorable celebration of the glory of the lives we all share in the truth of love and life. May the joy of love and life remain with you always brother. Long may you continue to give warmth, hope, comfort and good cheer to those around you... :) (:))

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 14:18:56 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: The admirable doctor Subject: Well, thanks, David. Nice sentiments Message:

I also look forward to that day but it will probably only happen when the ego dissolves at death and then we will all be ''merged in that one love'' and won't be able to tell ourselves apart from others. :C) Meantime back in maya we'll all just keep on trucking.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:58:52 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: All Subject: a bit of technical help please! Message:

Sorry to be such a Luddite, but please somebody tell me how, when writing a post here, you embolden or italicize a piece of text. I can do it on Word, obviously, but if you then copy to here, the emboldening etc disappear. Thanks! Liv

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:55:28 (EST) From: Opie Email: None To: Livia Subject: Can be done via Word actually ... Message:

Hi Livia Actually you can do it in Word easily but it requires a few steps to get there. 1. Open Word 2. Type what you want to say 3. Use whatever formatting suits your style or mood at that time 4. Save as HTML (ignore message about losing formatting etc) 5. Rename file extension from .htm to .txt 6. Open txt file in notepad or whatever, select all, copy and then paste into Hotboards 7. Voila Using the above steps I reformatted your original post as below. Once you have gone through above steps a couple of times you will be able to do it in your sleep! Or you can continue using the < > <> method! OP Sorry to be such a Luddite, but please somebody tell me how, when writing a post here, you embolden or italicize a piece of text. I can do it on Word, obviously, but if you then copy to here, the emboldening etc disappear. Thanks! Liv

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 11:02:48 (EST) From: A little simpler Email: None To: Livia Subject: way of explaining it. Message:

The symbol i for italics the symbol b for bold the symbol u for underline Insert these symbols between the <> at the beginning of the phrase you want changed to italics, bold or underline, and end the changed text phrase with a forward slash / after the symbol you want to use, between the same <> symbols.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 21:09:53 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Livia Subject: Re: a bit of technical help please! Message:

Livia < with the letter..I... for italics.....then close it with > those 3 symbols will start the italics. To finish the italicised section... again start with < followed by ... /I ........followed by > those 4 symbols will end the italicised section. For bold use B instead of I

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:05:52 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Livia Subject: Re: a bit of technical help please! Message:

Hi Livia, Use the following: ... for the following features Replace ? with the small letter i. Put the text you want italicized in between those symbols. Replace ? with the small letter b. Put the text you want bold in between those symbols Replace ? with the small letter u. Put the text you want underlined in between those symbols Cheers, and happy word processing deborah

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 03:13:03 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: a bit of technical help -go here! Message:

all the above entries failed because the browser reader actually followed the directions the people typed into their mails, instead of leaving the directions visible. here's a better way to learn it: I've found you the page I learned my html basics from. go there and sutdy the instructions, and if you wnat to practice, look on the pages for their html test bed, which is a blank box or screen on which to write html code, one line at a time, as per their instructions, and then to press the button which takes what you've written in code and shows you n the next screen what that looks like when the browser translates it into webpage presentation. this forum reads html tags if they are written into the post. you can make your post appear with different sizes of letters [font size=], different colors of lettering, or both, and you can turnany part of your post into bold, italic, underlined, stricken thru or mimicking typewriter letters, by surrounding the words of your post with matching tags on either side, just like you use parentheses. remember that jtml tags work like matching sets of bookends, or think of them as layers of doors you have to go thru to get to your objective. every door you open on the way in to the text in question, you must remember to close on the way out, in the reverse order from which you entered. {if you think about it, it only makes sense. it's like those nesting dolls. you can only open them and close them back up in one order. with doors, you can't close a door that's behind one you already have shut behind you. you can only open them in the order you come to them, and likewise, can only shut them one by one behind you, as you go out from the target destination to where you came in from} so all html tags surrounding any words you want to embellish, will have all the 'begin modification here' tags of the left side of the target words, like so: I'm using different flavors of parentheses to represent different commands like 'italicize', 'embolden', 'underline'--tho all the html codes for those changes use the same kind of bracketing seen in the lesson I'm sending you to-- begin changes here~>(x)[y]{z}your target words go here(/x)[/y]{/z}<~end changes with these. practice a bit. you don't need to tag the top and bottom of your posts with the actual ' begin html tags' and 'end' tags all the time. i find if i just insert the italic or bold tags around my target words, they come out fine. if they fail to show that way, then i repost or edit to put the html alert tags on top and bottom, so the browser knows that the following text is to be read and rendered with html embellishments included. you can learn a hell of a lot of html from this site. I sure did. go to http://www.draac.com/html3.html

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 06:13:15 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: janet Subject: Looks like you need my HTML course Message:

Here you go: Click here to see how to do fancy text and insert links There's a lot you can do when you know how.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 03:21:56 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: janet Subject: oop-correction!! Message:

I f*ked up! you close the tags in reverse order that you open them-- so the order of surrounding should be: (x)[y]{z}your words here{/z}[/y](/x) layers. nesting dolls. and remember this ver carefully: anything that you open, you must close as you leave. if you don't, you get bizarre errors you can't remember making. you will get an entire post in italic, or bold, or underline, because you forgot to count openers and closers, and forgot to indicate to the machine where it was supposed to quit doing that to the text. tags have to occur in matched pairs. whew--i just did it, to put that in italic, underlined bold ! gets kinda nervewracking at first. but you'll get it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 10:36:52 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: janet Subject: Thanx!!! Message:

Thanks darlings for all your help/expertise!!! I was kind of hoping to find out that there was a way to do it as on Word, ie a way to a toolbar, but alas it's not to be. However I shall try it all out. Please bear with me as I grind painfully into the 21st century. With love, as always, Liv XX

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 12:34:23 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Livia Subject: Word - HTML test Message:

Livia, I am attempting to create a document in Word and save it as HTML. I wrote this in Word, saved as HTML and copied it to a new message window here. This line should be bold. This line should be italic. This line should be bold italic. This line should be underlined. This line should be larger and bold. This line should be red. Well, I just checked and it seems to work. In the Quoted Message window below, you should be able to see the HTML coding that Word put in. Happy HTML-ing Richard

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 05:23:19 (EST) From: janet the nitpicker Email: None To: Richard Subject: Re: HTML error Message:

I proofed your html code for the hell of it, and was surprised to find a lone 'close font' tag in one of your lines, for which there was no corresponding 'open font' tag earlier in the code. weird. did you do that, or did the machine you ran it thru? i notice the tags dont close in the reverse order they are opened in. that's peculiar. and all these paragraph breaks are odd. i was taught to use 'BR' as separaters if there are going to be more than one space ocurring between lines or blocks of text. I was told to save the paragraph break for instances when only one large space was to occur somewhere in the layout. hmmmm. oh--and also--aren't the cases supposed to match on the sets of tags? either both in caps or both in lowercase, but not mixed? I was taught that being consistent was important, because if we all move up to the next standard. which is supposedly going to be xtml, all cases will have to match or it won't scan at all in xtml. ok , I'm done nitpicking now. you can go back to your professional livlihood of 30 years' duration and ignore me, who has never worked in Graphics except as a go-fer. obviously, the browser read it just fine janet the micromanager

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Date: Mon, Feb 25, 2002 at 11:49:35 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: janet the nitpicker Subject: Re: HTML error Message:

I confess, the Word HTML to Forum paste did work but I couldn't resist tinkering with the code. Therin lies the errors you found. Opie has good instructions above.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:06:44 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: All Subject: Alan Watts on Gurus Message:

Hi all, My husband (never a premie) has been reading Alan Watts as of late and is encouraging me to do the same. Out of curiousity I picked up Myth and Religion and this is what I found: 'I am often asked the question, 'Is it really necessary to have a guru?' I can answer that only by saying, 'It is necessary, if you think so.' That is said in the same spirit as one might say that anybody who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined. There is more in that saying than meets the ear, because if you are sincerely concerned with yourself, and are in such confusion that you feel you have to go to a psychiatrist to talk over your state, then of course you need to go. Likewise, if you are in need of someone to tell you how to practice meditation, or attain a state of liberation, nirvana, moksha, or whatever it may be called, and if you feel that necessity very strongly, then you must do it because, as the poet William Blake said, ' The fool who persists in his folly will become wise.' However, I do want to ask you, What is the source of a guru's authority? He can tell you he speaks from experience, that he has experienced states of consciousness that have made him profoundly blissful, understanding, compassionate, or whatever. You have his word for it and you may have the word of other people who likewise agree with him. But each one of them and you in turn, agree with him from out of your own opinion, and by your own judgement. So it is you who are the source of the teacher's authority.' Just some food for thought for the day. Warmly, Susan

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 01:26:56 (EST) From: A friend Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: More Alan Watts pickpocketing your own watch Message:

From Still the Mind by Alan Watts (which I am reading): 'When you confer spiritual authority on another person, you must realize that you are allowing them to pick your pocket and sell you your own watch.' Maybe a great intellect like Jim could explain this to me! How can you be certain with any great teacher that they know what they say they know? I would say the proof of the pudding is in the eating ; if you practice what the teacher is (preaching) and you experience 'nirvana' theni guess you could say the teacher is pointing and taking you in the direction that you most likely would want to go. A Friend

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 08:54:44 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: A friend Subject: Re: More Alan Watts pickpocketing your own watch Message:

Dear Friend, Do you really need Jim to explain this? Are willing to pay this person for your own watch? Best, Susan

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 15:47:37 (EST) From: Dave Punshon Email: None To: All Subject: Muktanada Message:

I came across this web page about Swami Muktananda - http://rigel.cyberpass.net/truth/ check out the 'First Time Here' page which talks about Muktananda's secret passage to the young girls' dorm at his ashram. After all, the Guru is beyond laws etc.... Fascinating reading indeed all the bset Dave http://rigel.cyberpass.net/truth/

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:13:38 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Dave Punshon Subject: Thanks, Dave Message:

I've made a bit of a study on old Muktee; he had the juju and no doubt fooled a lot of smart people. But in the end he turned out to be just another predator. I've read he was having sex with teenage girls younger than eighteen by using his guru juju, which, of course made him a pedophile and a rapist. He was worshipped as an avatar like the Filament. Could do no wrong, above it all, not responsible for his actions, also like the Marvel of Malibu.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:52:42 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Um, ah.....(OT-about donations) Message:

I just sent a 'thank you' note to someone for their paypal donation. Then I noticed as I scrolled down the notification email, it says 'do not reply to this email.' I've sent email to everyone sending a donation by replying to the email notification. Now I'm not sure anyone received these notes of graditude and I'm thinking I might be a putz. Can anybody give me some clarity on this? I'd be highly appreciative...:)

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 15:31:10 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: gerry Subject: No gerry . . . Message:

. . . you're not a putz. Then again, maybe you are. You never replied to my invitation to Latvian Lunch in Seattle recently when the Heller BC contingent was here. But I notice you can traipse all the way to San Francisco. :)

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 17:03:20 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: About that twenty bucks, Ger Message:

Look, why don't you keep half of it as my lifetime annual contribution to the forum's upkeep. The other ten you can just send me Fed Ex or something. Not their ground service, it'd take over a week to get here.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 16:00:31 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Richard Subject: Second fiddle again... Message:

You guys gave me about thirty minutes lead time, and besides, I still owe Heller twenty bucks...

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 13:25:43 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Opposing Views Message:

I found this to be an interesting point of view from Life is Great. I have no doubt of this man's sincerity and profoundly disagree with him at almost the atomic level. Of course the author, jbsf, is cordially invited to defend his views if he so desires. Please be polite to my guest :) An interesting psychological phenomenon going on here, demagogues, a combination of intense passion and undeveloped intellect. Bob Mishler, Michael Dettmers, the list is probably quite extensive; people who failed to usurp Prem’s power and so sought to manipulate the pain and confusion of those they perceived were vulnerable to suggestion. The demagogue uses the anger and frustration of others by suggesting that his enemy (Prem Rawat) is the cause of their suffering, and therefore they should now join his army to fight the newly identified enemy. This is the m.o. of every despot: to attain power through deception and psychological manipulation. Hitler, Stalin, bin Laden, etc. Hitler was refused admission to art school so he decided to murder 6 million people. Bin Laden was rebuffed by the King of Saudi Arabia and so wants to recruit poverty stricken millions to attack America, in his mind, a weaker target. He knows well that the King would have him decapitated if push came to shove. The ex-premies appear to be fairly impotent in their attempts to attack Maharaji directly, so they choose to come here and attack those perceived to be weak, like wolves picking off the stray lamb. Maybe I’ve just answered one of my own antique questions: why does Prem seem to keep so many incompetent people around him? I have seen this for three decades, one screw ball instructor, community leader, bureaucrat, after another ad nauseum. I did lose it at one point... maybe these were all the potential future despots who needed to be defanged, neutralized, de-venomed. There always was a saying ‘the wet wood needs to be closest to the fire’. The few who slipped through without being totally defanged are now the ones, who, like wounded animals, return to attempt to storm the castle again with their seething rage and bitter hatred, ready to use any tactic, however evil, to attain the object of their desire, POWER. This is all part of evolution of the worlds, survival of the fittest. Biology. Psychology. Chimpanzees are notorious for murdering their neighbor chimps. They even eat their own young on occasion. The alpha male rips the infant out of its mother’s arms, kills it and begins to eat it, offering some of the meat to the anguished mother. I lived with Bob Mishler. The most vicious ‘ex-premies’ are the ones who spent the most time with Prem and were the very same people who ran the ashram hierarchy with the iron fist of fanatic devotion. We were required to rise at 4:30 am every morning to sing the extended version of arti, maybe twenty stanzas long. I was expelled from the ashram for meditating too much and ‘disrupting’ the ashram schedule. This was i months after i had turned over my trust fund to Divine Blight Mission. But I’m not in the least angry with Prem for any of this. i see it as my lesson in self-defense. As long and difficult as it has been, it has transformed me from a totally dependent impotent worm to...well maybe I’ve reached reptilian status. If you haven’t heard REPTILIAN by Nine Inch Nails, I highly recommend it. ssssssssssssssssssssat chit. Bitches and whores united to fight evil..........

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 21:22:18 (EST) From: Nigel Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Opposing Views Message:

There always was a saying ‘the wet wood needs to be closest to the fire’. The few who slipped through without being totally defanged are now the ones, who, like wounded animals, return to attempt to storm the castle again with their seething rage and bitter hatred, ready to use any tactic, however evil, to attain the object of their desire, POWER. This is all part of evolution of the worlds, survival of the fittest. Biology. Psychology. Chimpanzees are notorious for murdering their neighbor chimps. They even eat their own young on occasion. The alpha male rips the infant out of its mother’s arms, kills it and begins to eat it, offering some of the meat to the anguished mother. Some truths were spoken, albeit ONLY in this last detail, but the poster is (- yawn -) typically mistaking natural selection for human culture. As for the 'interesting psychological phenomenon' (demagogues): he is making it up. Or has been reading stuff written by someone else who is making it up. Maybe they are both on drugs. Whatever...He/she has read too many of those genteel-archaic 'There was once a prince / there-has-always-been-a-saying..'- type instructional tract published by dream-chasers of the lowest order. I note he/she capitalises 'POWER' in a non-specific sense when talking about exes, without noting the word's greater applicability to the fat bloke from India with the Armani suits and $7M pleasure boat.

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 06:34:22 (EST) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: gerry Subject: An opposing views Message:

Interesting analysis, jbsf. However, it lacks coherence. Are you are suggesting that I am a demagogue and a despot, the metaphorical equivalent of a Hitler vis-à-vis the art school director (Maharaji), or Bin Laden vis-à-vis the King of Saudi Arabia (Maharaji)? Get serious. The demagogue in your scenario is Maharaji. I, unlike many, had an opportunity to witness how he, to use your words, “attain(ed) power through deception and psychological manipulation.” I have simply reported the inconsistencies I witnessed between what he preached and what he practiced. What people choose to do with that information is there own business. Thus, you are free to believe that “ex-premies appear to be fairly impotent in their attempts to attack Maharaji directly.” However, the CAC attacks suggest otherwise. How do you explain that “interesting psychological phenomenon?”

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 17:57:15 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Opposing Views Message:

The ex-premies appear to be fairly impotent in their attempts to attack Maharaji directly, so they choose to come here and attack those perceived to be weak, like wolves picking off the stray lamb. Maybe I’ve just answered one of my own antique questions: why does Prem seem to keep so many incompetent people around him? I have seen this for three decades,one screw ball instructor, community leader, bureaucrat, after another ad nauseum. I did lose it at one point... maybe these were all the potential future despots who needed to be defanged, neutralized, de-venomed. This is incorrect and a spin. Recent experience on LG has proven to me that the premies who post there are far from lambs waiting for slaughter, quite the opposite. People who don't know about wolves shouldn't talk about them. They are predators who were essential to our ecosystem. They've been killed off because of a perceived notion that they are evil creatures. Their source of food is not lambs or cattle either, in the wild they eat rodents and other small mammals; it's only when humans started to incroach upon their environment (with cattle and sheep ranches, for instance) that wolves became a creature to be hated and killed off. So that's an incorrect example, too. Demonizing wolves is stupid and comparing ex-premies to them is even more silly. When I posted about DECA here, then on LG, I received a personal attack, to which Roupell responded to the effect on LG...'folks, don't get too personal about the inner circle stuff'...which I assume includes the premie who was mentioned in the attack against me (by the FA, not me). As Francesca says below, the whole post above is illogical. Sounds like a desperate attempt to sound smart. At DECA, for instance, I encountered some of the most talented and smart people. What did the lard do with them? He used them and wasted them. As far as ex-premies not being able to stop the Maharajism cult, (as characterized by the writer, jbsf, as ''attacking him'') well, maharaji won't allow any questions, allow a review of his deficiencies and flaws, or any sort of criticism. The information on EPO has been validated by those witnesses who came forward for a variety of reasons. Also, premies fail to realize that incompetence starts at the top in any organization, including the Maharajism cult. Knowledge and Maharaji, or self-knowledge and Maharaji are intwined to the extent that they cannot be separated, regardless of the efforts of the premies on LG. When ex-premies try to tell the truth about experiences while in the cult these aren't attempts to gain Maharaji's power, (who wants that? I certainly don't) but it's an effort on the part of exiting premies to regain our own personal power over the cultist thinking and behavior, not to mention our freedom of thought, which was stolen by Maharaji and the cult. To characterize ex-premies as ''vicious'' is untrue. There are exes who come here from a wide variety of experiences. Some were very close to m, some not. It doesn't have any bearing on anything, except what has been witnessed first hand while following m. I'm certainly not going to stop telling the truth because of premies on LG. It's not a personal revenge, either. Backlash will come. I can handle it and will. So, the whole post above doesn't make much sense to me; it's just another angle or attempt to discredit what's been done on EPO thus far by someone who is trying to sound like they have a full, independent and thinking brain. In contrast, the intelligent level of ex-premies who post here is quite high IMO. I'm often delighted at the high level of education, vocabulary, life and career experience, and theability to write, etc. I never heard the expression, 'wet wood needs to stay close to the fire,' and haven't a clue what it means. I make fires all the time. Indoors and outdoors. This must be some kind of mystery, I don't know about.:) Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:00:40 (EST) From: Cat WOLVE Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Answer this:) Message:

What he means is that the Hex's only focus on the more pliable and gentler P's when visiting LG.And he is right.You come over and take a dump in a bucket in the middle of our loungeroom and expect us to be pleased. Not only that ,but you do it again,and because we live in a free range enviroment ,we have to put up with it - no cleaning allowed! You lied about what happened over there You were engaged in a dialogue with me.You were asked if you had EVER enjoyed the practice of K-(going inside)You confused that deliberately over a couple of days with a whole lot of stuff you were involved with.The question was specific.Did you ever enjoy Knowledge itself? After avoiding answering that and using our Loungeroom as your soapbox(bathroom?),DR had had enough of you.He served it up in a way you yourself have done many times.(Where do you think we learn these bad habits?) You dont like me coming here and commenting.You lobbied to send me packing Why on earth do you think we will welcome your garbage over there with open arms?Especially considering you refuse to communicate on something as basic as to whether you ever enjoyed practising K (In your terms read meditation) Honesty is the basic building bock of trust

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:19:50 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cat WOLVE Subject: To: Catweasal... Message:

To: Catweasal You asked a question and I answered it. You never responded. You ignored the answer. So you conspired to hurt me and you succeeded. Are you happy? Is that what 'enjoying life' is to you, to purposely injure people in the most private and intimate way? Congratulations, you succeeded. Good for you and SRR and your Guru. NOW, LISTEN HERE... This is the last communication I will ever grant you. Yes, grant you. You and your inner circle have caused me enough pain for a very long time to come. SRR can rot in hell for all I care. Talk about an emotional midget! Not to mention coward, just like Maharaji, your lord. Are you proud? You should be ashamed! And tell SR I take back my words to him when we last met. I don't absolve him (I recind my fogiveness to that beggar). I don't forgive him his weaknesses and his pouty childish behavior. Plus, until he gets published, he may well shut his face about being am ''American Writer,'' too. These are the last words I will ever, ever write to you Mr. Catweasal. You give that wonderful species of animals a very bad name. Very sincerely, Cynthia J. Gracie Vermont, USA And what's your name, coward?

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 23:53:32 (EST) From: Catweasel:P:P:P:P:P:P:P Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: To: Catweasal... Message:

My name? Catweasel! By deed poll... You did NOT answer the questio DR appolged over there to you. I did not attack you,denigrate you or harras you In the spirit of you incredibly snipey post to me ,at first I namecalled you. Then we started to talk about things You never answered my question.You said you lived in an ashram and practised I didn't ask whether you practised.Iasked whether you enjoyed it,K? So stop a drama Queen,come back and finish what you started:)

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Date: Sun, Feb 24, 2002 at 23:23:53 (EST) From: DR Email: None To: Catweasel:P:P:P:P:P:P:P Subject: Whaaaht?? Message:

An F7 scout alerted me to this mention of my name (well, initials) on this forum (which you will have noted has been delightfully free of DR posts for some time now) Not sure what cat's on about here with Cyn ...but just to clarify... I did not apologise to Cynthia about anything (why on earth?!?!?) I apologied for posting a provocative reply to an innocent post of Mili's about a Henry Rollins concert. I apolgised to all exes, who had an equal right to be affronted and indignant about it. My apology was graciously accepted by JBH for which I remain grateful.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:31:11 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The wet wood thing Message:

Cynthia, That was a traditional premie excuse about the high percentage of incompetents that M usually surrounded himself with. 'The wet wood needs to be closest to the fire,' i.e. that in his infinite grace, those folks really needed to be around him in order to be purified and transformed, or some such nonsense. Those of us that couldn't be as close to Defeet didn't need it as badly. Yeah, I've heard it too. After a number of years of watching his incompentent organization, I realized that it wasn't true. Not all of the folks were idiots, not all were incompetent, and the monkey wrench in the works was really the big Maha. Some of these poor people were just folks like me, trying to follow his impossible orders. What a Simon Sez religion! I wonder if he laughs his ass off at them with a couple of really close sycophants. I wouldn't be surprised, because there really is something nasty about Maharaji. Be well, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:04:28 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca :~) Subject: ''By His Grace''~) Message:

Hi Fran, Thanks for the explanation Francesca--I never heard that one before. There are many premies/ex-premies who have extraordinary talents. I was in awe many times at DECA not just by the artists, but by the craftpeople, carpenters, rug-layers (oooh those knees). Women and men with top shelf skills. Not just in the arts, either. In business, in efficiency, in every aspect of any kind of work m has desired and requested. But we were duped into thinking it was 'By His Grace.' It's been the downfall of m and so stupid of him to screw premies' work up so much by interrupting them, by changing directions, instructions on a dime, creating whimsical, but tight deadlines, just sticking his stupid ass nose into the fields in which they have expertise, but is such an egomaniac he doesn't seem to be able to help it. Then, on top of that he takes credit for their work. That's just not right. It's so demeanding. I had myself convinced that the only reason I could sing well in front of an audience was because of his grace. Let us all not forget how many times we were conditioned to believe in him so much we said ''by his Grace.'' That one phrase took possession of our talents, intelligence, minds, and personal power by deferring everything we did to 'by his grace.' By his grace I have talent? Absurd. During the late 70s that phrase was so overused, along with 'lila' (the excuse for having a ''bad experience'') it caused a huge amount of confusion and cognitive dissonance. I had an interesting encounter the other evening. A good friend of mine has come down with late stage prostate cancer at age 50. It's been a big blow but we're keeping positive with concern. His brother, who hasn't been more than an acquaintance over the years has come up to take care of our friend's house and pets. Tom went to see him (the brother). Well. Glory Be! Halleluah! He got zapped by a TV evangelist. He didn't even have to leave his freaking living room and he got zapped by the holy spirit and is preachin' to ring the bell. Tom got freaked. He told me about the preaching and bible thumping and it took him a 1/2 day to recover from the mere contact with someone who, by watching tv, now has himself convinced he has the answer to life. And preaches it without belonging to any congregation. Weird. Weird. Weird. That's all for today Be well, Cynth

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:33:01 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: gerry Subject: The premise or assumption fails Message:

From the outset, the threshhold brick upon which his argument is based is false. An interesting psychological phenomenon going on here, demagogues, a combination of intense passion and undeveloped intellect. Bob Mishler, Michael Dettmers, the list is probably quite extensive; people who failed to usurp Prem’s power and so sought to manipulate the pain and confusion of those they perceived were vulnerable to suggestion. Neither Dettmers, nor Mishler are 'demogogues' and I don't see any others popping up their heads. The only one who tried to usurp M's church succeeded. Sat Pal is also a 'Perfect Master' over in India, and he has no involvement with the expremies. He considers his own followers to be premies. Re the intense passion and undeveloped intellect charge. Dettmers, Michler? Michler was dead before the ex-premie thing even started. Dettmers came here to defend himself, initially. Dettmers, for example, hardly ever posts here. He's not leading anyone, and he's not taking them anywhere. Nor did Mischler, in his own day. I don't see that Dettmers or Mischler displayed "intense passion" about this, but the person leveling the charge certainly is displaying the same. So for that theory, but no dice. The original assumption is false. End of story. Over and out.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 14:11:47 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: My answer from LG Message:

Not sure why you found this so interesting, Gerry, but here's my response from LG (where jbsf's post, in its original form was all one block of text): First, it's not that easy reading your posts, Jim, because you write these long, long, unbroken paragraphs that give the impression of uncontrolled, breathless rambling which, as you must know, is definitely the sign of a certain kind of mental instability. I'd think that if you wanted people to take you seriously, even if you had this trait in real life, you'd want to mask it a bit in print. You know, give the impression, at least, that you're not just running off at the mouth. Pause here and there. For your own reflection as well as your reader's. But, Jim, if you actually believe what you're saying here, you really are a bit nuts. The whole ex-premie 'movement' (which really isn't a movement at all) was started by relative nobodies in the cult. We went and got Dettmers to get involved, something he did with some reluctance at first, reluctance only exacerbated by the non-disclosure agreement he'd signed back in the eighties. But Dettmers didn't spearhead anything. Now, I don't know who you consider to be the 'most viscious ex-premies' but it's sheer paranoid imagination on your part to think that there's some core group of rabid exs who used to run the ashrams this way or that. There are a relatively few number of former co-ordinators among the online exes, just as you'd expect there to be. Even these guys, people like Joe, for instance, who was a community coordinator, or JM, an instructor, or John MacGregor, another coordintator type, were just premies trying to serve their master. The only power trips of any significance were Maharaji's. Your effort to somehow avoid that fact seems desperate and delusional.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 13:46:10 (EST) From: John G Email: None To: gerry Subject: This guy is slick-a 'takeover man'?? Message:

I'll soon be posting more about con artists and their behaviors but I'll hold back for now since this thread has great potential-- --- - Players in the Game A 'qualifier', also known as a 'dialer', identifies victims on the lead lists who have either lost substantial amounts of money or have the potential to, by making exploratory 'no selling' calls. A 'fronter' makes the initial sale but then passes the lead on to a reloader for future repeat sales. A 'closer' is a high-pressure salesman who completes the sales. A 'no saler' is someone who solicits people who have said 'no' to a prior solicitor. A 'takeover' man will step in if a sales attempt bogs down and needs new enthusiasm and a different line to convince you.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:59:33 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: All Subject: A parallel..... Message:

Here are some extracts from an article in the English “Daily Telegraph” about Sai Baba. To precis some of the content, the faith of a prominent follower called David Bailey was “finally crushed when students came to him alleging that they had been sexually abused by the guru…..Shocked by the allegations, Bailey severed his association with Sai Baba and began to assemble a dossier of evidence from former devotees around the world……..some of these allegations have been aired before. A former devotee, B. Premenand, has made a virtual career out of debunking Sai Baba through his publication “The Indian Sceptic”. But the charges contained in “The Findings” are of an altogether different magnitude. They include verbatim accounts of abuse from devotees in Holland, Australia, Germany and India. Conny Larsson, a well-known Swedish film actor, says that not only did Sai Baba make homosexual advances towards him, but he was also told by young male disciples of advances the guru had made on them.” To cut a long story short, someone called Glen Meloy “launched his own internet campaign to spread the allegations. The effects of this have been enormous. There has been a rash of defections from Sai Baba groups throughout the West. From other devotees, however, the response has been one of disbelief and denial. “Sai Baba,” says Bailey, “is a simple sex maniac who’s on an ego trip, after money, after power. He’s a sheer conman.” “No,” say the others, “Sai Baba is God.” “ Later in the article, a prominent devotee called Goldstein tells the parents of a boy who has been sexually abused by Sai Baba that the boy might be “delusional”. Goldstein said that he was “deeply shocked at the allegations and could not begin to understand them. “All I know in my heart is that Swami is the purist of the purist, and that everything he does is for the highest good of everybody. If other people feel something else, that’s how they feel. It’s a mystery to me, and that’s how I’m leaving it. I just know in my heart what I’ve found.” This denial – Sai Baba is God, God doesn’t do these things – was a theme that was echoed by innumerable other devotees I spoke to in America and Britain. One woman told me the allegations were “utterly inconsistent” with her experience of Sai Baba over the past 30 years. Others said they were convinced they were a result of delusions or the projections of young boys at a difficult time sexually.” Surfing the internet, I came across a site called “The Sai Critic”, established by some devotees to answer “The Findings” and to “counsel” those whose faith might be wavering in the face of the allegations. The anonymous authors of the site urge devotees to believe only their own experiences and quote an aphorism of Sai Baba’s: “When doubt walks in the front door, faith walks out the back door. Keep your doors closed.” Addressing the allegations of sexual abuse, the authors state that because “Sai Baba is a divine incarnation, one cannot attribute human or sexual motives to him, nor interpret him in the light of human sexual experience.” In other words, because Sai Baba is divine, whatever he does is beyond understanding and beyond accountability…… Among the most remarkable facets of this controversy has been the role of the internet. Even 10 years ago, it is doubtful whether the allegations against Sai Baba would have spread so far and so fast. In 1999, Sai Baba instructed his devotees that: “Swami has nothing to do with internet (sic). Not only now, even in future (sic) also. You should not indulge in such wrong activities.” But in the realm of cyberspace the accusations, the justifications and the denials continue to multiply.”…. Conny Larson has set up a support group for those claiming abuse by Sai Baba, and says he receives some 20 – 30 emails a day from victims “crying out for help. You cannot leave these people in the desert.”… “We know that many victims have been physically molested,” Glen Meloy told me, “but in reality all the former devotees have been spiritually raped because we chose to believe that this man was the highest. I certainly considered him to be the God of all gods, the creator of all creation, my friend, my everything. The intense desire I have to expose him now is directly proportionate to the amount of devotion I gave him.”…..”We completely gave away our power. And now we can look back and see what we did. You cry out and wonder, how in the world could this happen?” How does this happen? In an imperfect world, we crave some evidence of perfection, some symbol of ineluctable goodness. The guru becomes the expression of the dream.”….. A former devotee called Jeff Young “ struggled to understand what had led him to believe that an Indian guru could be God. Thinking back to his first interview (with Sai Baba) “I remember feeling peace like I had never felt before” – he now thinks he was simply deluded……”It goes so far into your mind. You ask yourself, how could millions of people be wrong? How could millions of people be tricked? I think a lot of people deny these things are happening because they’re afraid of being embarrassed. I felt that myself. We’d spent 23 years raising our family to believe in him, going upstream against a river. You think, how could I have been so wrong?”… “Some people”, say Jeff Young, “when we tell them our story, they drop Sai Baba like a rock. Some just don’t want to hear it. And others hear it all and say, well, he’s God! It’s all a test. I laughed when I heard that. Because to me, passing the test is having the courage to stand up on your own two feet and say this is not acceptable.” It’s a curious thing, said Young, but when he first told his friends and fellow devotees he was leaving Sai Baba, he had the sense, -“and I still feel that way”- “that Baba was standing over my shoulder, saying, “Good boy, you’re doing a good job.” Comments, anyone...... With love to all, Livia

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 12:46:12 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Livia Subject: Yes, and here's another Message:

French court asked to ban Paris Scientology church PARIS, Feb 22 (Reuters) - A French prosecutor asked a court on Friday to consider shutting down the Church of Scientology in the greater Paris area, saying it engaged in 'mental manipulation.' 'This is about protecting potential victims,' prosecutor Christine Forey told the court in Paris. 'I ask you to think about the penalty of dissolution due to the methods used by Scientology,' she said. Forey charged the church, whose U.S. branch counts Hollywood stars including Tom Cruise among its members, with attempted fraud, untruthful advertising, and violation of people's rights by holding computerised files on them. The case is the first time the church has been taken to court in France. The French National Assembly, or lower house of parliament, considers it a sect as distinct from a religion. The case was initiated by former members of the church, who complain they were harassed after leaving in 1999. The church argues that it is a spiritual movement and on Friday called three members -- teachers at the universities of Helsinki, California and Madrid -- as witnesses to testify that Scientology is, for them, a religion. The church in the United States, where it is recognised as a religion, said on Thursday it would submit a complaint to the United Nations against France for 'violation of human rights.' Seeking to control the activities of sects, French legislators passed a law last year making it an offence to abuse a vulnerable person through 'the exertion of heavy or repeated pressure or techniques' liable to alter his or her judgment. The law also allows courts to ban groups if individual members are convicted of such existing offences as fraud or wrongful advertising. Forey asked that the church be fined at least 300,000 euros ($263,200) if it were not ordered to close. She also requested that the group's leader in Paris, Marc Walter, 60, be given a one-year suspended prison sentence. 'The methods of Scientology, its deceitful promises of results which call for large donations of money, amount to a form of mental manipulation,' Forey told the court. 'The aim of this organisation is purely commercial.' Walter's lawyers argued on Thursday that there was nothing stopping any member from leaving the group. 'If someone doesn't want to belong to the church anymore, we are not going to hold them back, there's no sense in that,' said defence counsel Bernard Michel. The court is due to give its verdict on May 17.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 19:52:16 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: Jim Subject: The need for certainty Message:

“All I know in my heart is that Swami is the purist of the purist, and that everything he does is for the highest good of everybody. If other people feel something else, that’s how they feel. It’s a mystery to me, and that’s how I’m leaving it. I just know in my heart what I’ve found.” This denial – Sai Baba is God, God doesn’t do these things – was a theme that was echoed by innumerable other devotees I spoke to in America and Britain. One woman told me the allegations were “utterly inconsistent” with her experience of Sai Baba over the past 30 years.' I found this part of the article most apposite, as it's so very much the same attitude I've encountered from current premies. We thought the experiences and the certainty we had were so unique, so do Baba devotees, so do current premies. But the reality is so much more complex than that; the need for certainty possibly being the most driving force of all. The above devotees are expressing the same thing as the current premies when they use 'their experience' to counter allegations on EPO and here. But when you examine the experience alongside the need for certainty, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny quite so well. I had experiences, yes, but I also had doubts. I suppressed those doubts because of M's commandment to 'leave no room for doubt'. And Sai Baba devotees were also forbidden to doubt, which put them in the same place we were. I have a Sai Baba devotee close friend, who, if I repeated the sexual abuse allegations to her, would merely shrug. She is normally a highly moral person, but she won't hear a word against Sai Baba, ever. Her need for certainty is so great that she would refuse to listen, or she would come up with an utterly bizarre explanation for Sai Baba's abuse of young boys. Just like premies do, for the affairs, the X-rating, the handling of the Jagdeo affair, all of it. Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Hence the Baba devotee's last words: that even after he exited the cult he still felt Sai Baba there looking over his shoulder. How weird it all is. With love, Livia

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 22:50:05 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Livia Subject: Yeah, right on Livia [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 20:36:16 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Livia Subject: That's it in a nutshell Message:

Perhaps the need for certainty is much greater when you are younger, hence M and Sai Baba's enormous success in attracting young devotees. The trouble is, though, that once you have taken on a world-view and belief system of such all-embracingness, and stuck with it, it becomes hard to shake it off because it so colours how you view the world. And you engage in increasingly weird mental contortions to retain the belief system that has underpinned your life. Exactly!

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:46:04 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: The Quiet Troll Message:

Any posts by this troll will be deleted. If you want to reply to this troll, that's your decision but please understand that while your post in reply will stand, the troll's posts will be deleted. pacem in terris

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:00:11 (EST) From: The Maharaji of Malibu Email: None To: All Subject: is more like dentist/doctor than lawyer Message:

The lawyer will talk to you real quick about the fees. The dentist/doctor are above it all and use someone at the front desk to talk about grimey ol' money. and a second musing: Could it be that in some ways EPO and the forum are actually serving the malibu maha? Could it be that only those that could be troublesome anyway are leaving? As his mass(?) support in the west has dwindled to just a few thousand, it seems the Master of Deception is just rolling with the punches. He's perfectly happy with a small intimate tv-cult club that will either contribute money or serve as unknowing schills(because they truly believe his crap) in the audience when necessary. Could it be that he's just looking out for himself, keeping the old lady and his spawn quiet?

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 18:51:38 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: The Maharaji of Malibu Subject: Rolling with the punches..... Message:

.....don't we all do that? I guess you've been around here long enough to make your own deductions as to what really interests him. Mine are that he wants to be the best qualified private pilot in the world. That's a very expensive ambition to realise,& I'd say he wouldn't be at all happy if the necessary funds weren't forthcoming. The more people find out about the real man the less likely they are to keep him afloat (or airborne). That's down to EPO. So I disagree with what you say. EPO is absolutely not in his interest. Whether he can screw the necessary out of the remaining blissheads I couldn't tell you. Maybe I'm wrong & he'd be perfectly content puttering about in a Cessna, knowing that the people who come to see him have been through the fire of doubt & have survived to be the true devotees. I drove up the M40 (England) last week in a big swish car. It was great fun....90,100,playing with all the buttons,scoping out the speed cameras,surfing past the retards in the slow lane. Then I got back into my 7 yr old Fiat Uno with the clackety(but cheap)diesel engine & it was like driving a tea trolley. Rawat has never been thwarted his whole life long. Now he is being. Rejoice.

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Date: Sat, Feb 23, 2002 at 11:39:01 (EST) From: Beverly Email: None To: The Maharaji of Malibu Subject: Re: dwindling Message:

I am surprised no one has mentioned the 'dwindling' tv broadcasts yet. An e-mail arrived for my partner saying Thursday's broadcast will end and Sundays will be at 5pm and yadda yadda yadda...somehow I am sure ev folks (the 4 left) will add the positive 'we are growing - send us your money' spin to this. I smile smuggly as I see the empire begin to fade.

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