Susan -:- Answers from Donner (bringing to top) -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:40:49 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- here they are oops... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:42:44 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Mike. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 13:20:42 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Thanks for all that, Donner -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:53:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- dettmers-you're staying! jim's drunk! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:33:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- janet I love having you here! LOLs :--P n/t -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:11:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Pauline's selling a kidney so janet can come to -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:41:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is one fucking beautiful emoticom! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:24:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Humm...! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:07:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- No paper drawing for me -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:24:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do I own dirty work? Well I guess I have a little -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:39:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hear, hear -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:20:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- you noticed, huh? he thinks he is. hahahaha. -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:37:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:24:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ GR -:- Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:55:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Dettmers, Guy - thanks -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Guy, sorry about the lingo -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:04:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- PWK=Person with Knowledge -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:02:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- PAM = Premie Around Maharaji /nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- PAM = Person Around Maharaji -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:08:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GR -:- PAM = Person Around Maharaji -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:54:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- you got it! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:26:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- OT=subject off topic(not gmj dish)...nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:44:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Just realized you probably know all this! nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:41:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Michael Dettmers, a personal post to you -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:21:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Thanks -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:30:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- You're welcome -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:37:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Oh no! -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:48:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Oh no! is right -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:57:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who ME?? As Bal Bhagwan Ji use to say -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:14:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Hey Jim, let's just let Bahgwans be Bahgwans /nt -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:26:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim :) -:- Cute but, Richard, let's face it, that's a pun -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:30:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard (|:-)[~~]X -:- Very punny Jim -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:31:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- love puns, hate clowns. watch out. now i know! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:51:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA - Could you please sweep this post for threats? -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:48:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Bozophobiacs Unite -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:11:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I would LOL if I wasn't half asleep -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:51:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I love puns, and clowns. Homey don't play dat n/t -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:26:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- LOL!!! Touche......nt -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:10:25 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Michael Donner -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:38:03 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Thank you, Mike -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:24:55 (GMT)

__ __ GR -:- In response to your Answers: -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:15:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- I agree with you, Guy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:46:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Question, Guy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:10:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ GR -:- Question, Guy -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:20:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- The 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hans Jayanti 77 - different travelling styles! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:38:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ observer -:- aircraft accident study -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:37:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ GR -:- The 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Alan Fenstermacher -:- The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:18:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:09:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- I think it was about a year later (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:37:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- One more question, Guy -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:23:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ GR -:- One more question, Guy -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Okay, one more.... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:27:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ GR -:- Okay, one more.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:33:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- More on the 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- I Have A Quick ? re the 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:27:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Quick Ans. re the 707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:44:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill burke -:- NHD707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:39:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- NHD707 -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 16:29:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- WOW bill.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:22:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Cynthia, -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:26:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- And one more.... -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:30:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ GR -:- And one more.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:39:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- The 707 at DECA -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:51:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Bad mood -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:00:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GR -:- The 707 at DECA -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:48:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Guy and Michael, Thank you for your exchange... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:24:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GR -:- Guy and Michael, Thank you for your exchange... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 06:17:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Cynthia, just want to say -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:19:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Connie, just want to say -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:14:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Agree a hundred percent that -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:19:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Your input is valuable -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 03:06:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Connie, ignore Pat. He's a prim old church lady NT -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:31:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Connie, your posts are great! -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:51:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thelma's getting all the womyn fired up because -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 23:33:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- well I did, I'm still posting, thanks heaps nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 22:07:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Connie - ignore Pat - I love your posts nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 21:48:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Cynthia you said 'Maharaji ridiculting you' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Richard--Good Catch... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:28:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Have you noticed how many hilariously -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:33:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pat: Ridiculting was a good one.... -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:57:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Cynthia and ''exited utterances'' -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:54:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Pat -:- Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 01:27:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks for answers Guy /nt -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:04:40 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Donner - thank you for some answers -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:08:38 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Thanks michael for the time and effort -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:03:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ donner -:- guy, there are some -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:41:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ GR -:- guy, there are some -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:49:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Donner, -:- Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:52:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill burke -:- Miami vices-the drug/fed's/premies connection -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:21:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Hey Donner, -:- Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:47:16 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:40:49 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Answers from Donner (bringing to top) Message:

These were 'salty mike's answers to LA ex I thought they deserved a new thread. Thanks Michael Donner for the insights...I am glad you made it out and are speaking out. I was fascinated by your insights. Susan

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 20:42:44 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Answers from Michael Subject: here they are oops... Message:

yes, some or most of what you have asked has been addressed by dettmers and myself to some extend earlier...preface to say that i concur completely with dettmers' accounts, their accuracy and the tone of his replies. 1. drinking? my personal experience is that m has been drinking since i began in denver in 1973...told then by bob mishler that he was drinking daily...that is daily...since he arrived in america. i know that it was daily...that his daily routine was created around his evening drinking...usually always began about 5pm...minimum 4 or 5 very large shots (probably 2-3 oz per drink) each evening, before dinner...usually later in evening about 9pm interesting by the way that he never or extremely rarely if ever eat with his children. they were feed earlier. so he drank cognac every evening til dinner, sometimes after dinner. often he would drink more, never less. 2. at the millenium program? yes, in houston at the residence he drank daily. i never saw him in all the years drink at any program until after he spoke...then always after. michael Dettmers might know otherwise and i would believe him. i never experienced m give 'satsang' while drunk or drinking. dettmers talked about his personality change with more then the usual drink and i certainly witnessed that often enough. the scene was comical/pathetic (in retrospect). alvaro or john miller would bring a crystal glass out to the dinning room, m at the end of the table, perhaps a couple people sitting against the walls of the dinning room...sometimes 5 or 6. the glass would be on a smallish tray with the glass covered (all the way from the kitchen to the dining room). the serving premie would have the other hand over the heart...the glass placed on the table in front of m and the server bowing with eyes closed....backing out of the room. i witnesed this ritual countless times. 2. drinking problem? you be the judge...my experience was that his whole schedule was set up...covertly around his drinking time. 3. drug use? i witnesed m smoking pot beginning 1973 (my witnessing began then). how often...not sure really, lots more then i saw i know for sure. most likely often weekly during most of the time i was around (1984...then i left and got married, returned as part time instructor til 87 and saw little during those years except it was the same when i was around sometimes as an x-rated premie til 1987). i personally doubt that m ever tried acid or stronger then hash drugs. not his style to be that out of control. anyways, i have no personal knowledge of anything except pot and hashish nor did i ever hear of more between 1973-87. hashish was added to a yogart drink at holi festivals, at all holi festivals, india, n. america, spain etc. part of the indian tradition as i was told. very strong. somethimes just pot was ground up with the drink...both were referred to as bong i think. i never saw m give satsang while stoned. most often my experience with m and pot was (always) at the residence, late in the evening, maybe 20 x-rated staff around the living room...m would start a large joint, maybe two...to his own lips making it of course more special to us!) he would have as much as he wanted and then pass it to marolyn (usually) and from there to the rest of us til it was gone. he would play music for awhile and go upstairs to bedroom after 30-60 minutes. we would mill araound and begin to clean up the house and kitchen til quite late on most of those occasions. for me, this was maybe 2-3 times a month. i found it generally part of what was so boring. Dettmers expressed somewhere on epo that he enjoyed the music...more then me i guess...i prefer to engage with those around me when smoking, laugh and connect with others...none of that ever happened...silence, some whispering perhaps, fairly loud music, some folks sleeping from fatigue until m said goodnite. ( i really liked the community aspect of the k/service experience and that was not the vib around the residence...all single pointed focus of course...very boring) 4. did PAMs ever talk about how strange and hypocritical...? never with me or to my knowledge. this was the last group of people that i nor anyone would speak with honestly, share any concerns with etc. i had my own network of others who i would speak with about my doubts and concerns...many still my friends and most who left around the same time ... this is interesting perhaps as it points to the fear or at minimum the lack of ease that existed around m. mostly everyone was 'happy to be there' and would do nothing if possible to risk losing tha place at his feet. everyone knew there was a mile long line of others wanting to be there in our place. so we were all individuals in our own closed systems walking round never really connecting with each other. reminds me of lots of painful feeling of how isolated i felt during...especially...1980-84...bored to. god, what took me so long to make the break? 5. was it hard to keep the x-rated secrets? yes and no. there were those who i did speak with about it, close friends (which i remember m trying to break me from). i guess having a few that i could speak to was enough to 'take the edge off' the potential conflicts. plus, clearly m used the x-rated status as a means of coopting us into increased loyalty....playing on that part of us (me) that liked to be special...probably power related also....at least i noticed how others felt more powerful once inside the circle, so it must have been something in me too. 6. was m having affairs since 1977 as mark a. suggested? i really don't know, but it seems like if he were i might have known about it and did not. monica lewis came on the scene in what? 1982? and seemed to be the first to me...or whatever that was about. honestly not even sure personally about that affair and what it was really about. 7/ did i procure women for m? i arranged to have a premie woman at decca to be standing in the 'right place at the right time' at m's request...to 'check he out'. he had me arrange on follow up to that 'darshan' with a meeting at the residence with her, daytime and in the dining room, meeting lasted 15 minutes, not sexual then...and i 'saw' m with her twice after that ..and not sure what or how far that went. the only other situation was speaking with one resident premie who had sex with m and was devastated afterwards when m would not communicate with her, avoided her etc. the sexual experience was not very satisfying for her...and worse was the avoidence afterwards. the other names that mark mentioned i do not know about nor have i heard about...grace m i personally doubt, but... one point here to understand clearly...there were lots of women who would have loved to have sex with m. who shared their fantasies with him via letters, conversations, actions, innuendo etc. he had no shortage of willing companions...but when the power is so imbalanced, even willing takes on significance. of course, all the hindu stories of masters and mistresses go way back and told and retold. 8. have any of those women spoken up? i guess not really. re: claudia...no, i never spoke with claudia after her break up with raja ji...never heard of the book...i know she was very angry and blamed both m and raja ji for fooling around etc. surely there were threats (felt or implied)during the settlement. i know of no other 'settlements' 9. hit and run i was not aware of that story but believe dettmers about it. sounds like the m that i knew, sounds like the willingness of prouty and others around m that i remember. 10. jagdeo...strangely i never heard of this trip. since reading this forum i have been told of another situation on the east coast in the 70's. i do not feel at liberty to discuss this but will continue to encourage those involved to speak out. i very reliable story to add to the mix. as i have mentioned elsewhere, m always had the back door channels that he would use...usually the residence staff or those few like randy prouty who were in and out and conduits of info and tasks..leaving those of us on the more 'official side' in the dark. his style of secrecy and divide and conquer. 11/ challenging m? calling him on his immorality? no, i never did except once to wonder (cautiously) about his responsibility towards the instructors he was letting go of so callously. there was a presumption that he was above any standards of course...doubts of that = mind= disloyalty=grounds to be put outside the circle etc. his general response to the gentle questioning of his dismissal of the instructors , most of whom thought it was for life literally as was the agreement...was (paraphase) 'i made them instructors i can unmake them, that is what their surrender is all about'. 12. did i witness any mircles? no, never. i did see lots of wonderful, talented people working hard together...often inspite of m's disorganization and secrcy and blaming, do great things together. lots of that seemed miraculous to me then and now. re; the miller story of driving off a cliff, i do vaguly remember that story and never believed it...miller was quite the story teller. 13. my personal relationship with m? cannot really say that i had a personal relationship with him...certainly not the kind that was warm, friendly, conversational, sharing mutual stories, questions, doubts. in retrospect, the feelings that he care about me were based upon the cosmology at the time...all that he did for me...like keep me hanging around endless in a waiting mode because i was the active type...he did for my own good out of his love for me. that he had some special, personal plan for my life to help me become a 'better person' (read better devotee). this is the mantra i chanted most of the time that both provided a context to explain all the uncomfotable feeling i was having as well as provide a foundational understanding of some personal relationship. did i ever feel i could speak openly with him? no never. did i ever see anyon else speak openly or honestly with him, no never. i believe michael dettmers (small question about what happened after that one time with michael and m left the room without saying anything...how long before michael left his service and bow did m change towards michael after that??) 14. what about the future...what is the best thing that could happen now? something between the ex s and m? at this point i have zero interest in trying to arrange anything with m and us or others. i have no reason to believe that he will or could change and become a serious world leader using his charisma or something to affect change. his credibility is completely shot, and unsalvageable in my small opinion. i have too many things in my life that i enjoy and am doing to on a smaller local scale to be at all interested. my co housing community here, raising my daughter, on the board of the local waldorf school, learning about myself via my close relationships etc. ironically and in some very strange way apparently there are those still working thru that part of themselves that is a devotee and it often takes a guru to have that. so long as there are devotees, there will be those willing to be gurus. our most important work is to grow that devotee up within ourselves into more wholeness and personal power and self love. i can't imagine what m will do. certainly he could leave it all and retire as he has often threatened to do...unless he is stillhooked on the 'love' and adoration of others...probably. honestly, i care very little what will happen, except to be willing to reach out and spend some time with those who might benefit from someone on the outside who has been there. bye for now...what do you think la ex.?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 13:20:42 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Donner. Subject: Thanks Mike. Message:

Hey, Thanks for that Mike. All the bits and pieces of the puzzle are fitting together, and it's not a pretty picture. Nobody is coming out of the cult and saying, 'No, Dettmers was lying. Captain Rawat doesn't drink at all.' All the accounts of what's really going on, support all the other accounts. There are three standpoints. You can believe it and quit. You can remain in ignorance. You can believe it but try to cover it up and justify it to yourself in some crazy way. Most premies are in the mushroom class in the middle, 'kept in the dark and fed on shit.' Your information about another Jagdeo offence on the East Coast is disturbing, but not unexpected. I'd like to discuss this more with you offline if that's OK. It's really good that you're posting Mike. I hope you stick around, and maybe start writing your 'Journey.' (Please let me edit it and insert some capital letters before you post it). Mr Ginn. (English and Drama)

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:53:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Thanks for all that, Donner Message:

Really glad you're posting, donner. Your perspective, your personality is different than Mike's and for those of us who never got to actually touch the elephant, it's so good to hear from those who did. Actually, now that you're here, I don't think we need Dettmers anymore. We can't afford to keep every ex-PAM on the payroll just for the hell of it. I'm sure he'll understand. Marianne, could you draw up the papers please?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:33:53 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: dettmers-you're staying! jim's drunk! Message:

pay no attention to that silly lawyer behind the curtain. we want you here. and we outnumber him. so there. ¦-[Þ

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:11:56 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: janet Subject: janet I love having you here! LOLs :--P n/t Message:

yeah, baby

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 19:41:43 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Pauline's selling a kidney so janet can come to Message:

Latvian Night!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:24:56 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: janet Subject: That is one fucking beautiful emoticom! Message:

Until yesterday, I've never really been the emoticom type. In fact, I never had much time for them kinda people. But that was so beautiful! Thank you, Janet.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:07:10 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Jim Subject: Humm...! Message:

Sounds similar to my last meeting with M. Jim, are you M's equivalent at EPO? Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 10:24:30 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim and Michael Subject: No paper drawing for me Message:

Hey Jim, you can draw up papers too! You're trying to make me do something with eDrek and now Dettmers. I'm much too busy organizing the next few Latvian Nights -- SF, Miami, Montreal, London again in the fall, etc. Do you own dirty work. Did someone give you a happy pill? Marianne

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:39:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Do I own dirty work? Well I guess I have a little Message:

Actually, Marianne, I'm really quite happy. I'm happy with this whole ex thing. So many neat people saying so many cool and interesting things about something bizarre I once lived through. Although I'd resigned myself to think no one would ever really appreciate that strange part of my lifem that feeling's long, long gone. Now, not only are there so many I can *talk* with or *listen* to but many of them had such rich and varied vantage points former grunts like me can learn so much from.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 20:20:01 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hear, hear Message:

Couldn't have said it better meself, Jimmy. Your unfashionable pal, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:37:22 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: you noticed, huh? he thinks he is. hahahaha. Message:

some people learn frighteningly well from their masters. you can see it when they turn around and practice it on their inferiors. or so they think they are, anyway. still, it's usefull to have such a vociferous guard dog. his barking scares away the burglars.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:24:23 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question Message:

Since you three seem to be congregating at this thread, I have a question for any / all of you. I am certain that many disenfranchised former PWKs and current PWKs read this forum. I assume you continue contact with some of those who have been privy to the inner workings as you have. Without sharing confidences of course, what is their mind set and would some of them be willing to share here? If not, what are their objections?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:01 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Richard Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question Message:

i am not in touch with anyone currently involved organizationally in any way. only some friends in smallish towns still practicing some at least.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:27:22 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Richard Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question Message:

Richard, I have received several e-mails from premies who are in the process of exiting the cult because of my posts, but who do not yet post on the Forum. All have told me that they derive tremendeous benefit from the different perspectives that are represented on the Forum, which is so helpful because exiting for them is such a gut wrenching experience. They don't post because they don't yet feel comfortable to do so, and/or because they still have many premies friends they either don't wnat to lose or confront. I have only received two e-mails from premies whom I once knew who are still involved. They don't deny the reports I and other's have made about M, but they either rationalize it a-la Turner, or they are cinvinced that M will one day answer all of these questions to their satisfaction. I encourage them to keep tuning into the Forum and to e-mail me whenever they wish to. Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:55:43 (GMT) From: GR Email: guy@architx.com To: Richard Subject: Dettmers, Donner, Rollins question Message:

I have talked about this forum to a few friends since Donner made me aware of MVD's posts. I'm not sure if that will influence any of them to monitor or post on this site. What does PWK mean? Premie with knowledge? As opposed to a Premie who has renounced knowledge?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:45 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: rollins and dettmers Subject: Dettmers, Guy - thanks Message:

Michael your testimonial to the Forum should be part of the TV campaign we are planning. I kid you but it is great to know others are deriving help from reading here. And apparently Donner gets a new toaster oven for referring Guy to the Forum. Thank you gentlemen.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:04:12 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: GR Subject: Guy, sorry about the lingo Message:

PWK is how M/ EV referred to Person With Knowledge. Don't know if he / they still do but it's used here as short hand. PWKs would be People With Knowledge. Some people here use a derogatory term Pwick (as in prick) or Pewk (as in puke). Face it man, you've joined a new cult! You and Donner both seem to react with puzzlement to the shorthand used here so maybe the oldtimers will be more universal in usage. Or someone can put together a glossary for newcomers.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:02:26 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: GR Subject: PWK=Person with Knowledge Message:

This is actually an EV term (to replace 'premie', I guess). Unlike 'PAM', which is an ex-premie.org-orginating term :).

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: PAM = Premie Around Maharaji /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:08:32 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Richard Subject: PAM = Person Around Maharaji Message:

It's really 'person around Maharaji' - it comes from the way EV/DLM would always say 'people around Maharaji' when expressing an opinion on one thing or another - rather than saying 'Maharaji' thinks this, that, or whatever. Sort of the 'bearer of bad news' idea. Broke another posts read record today - perhaps the FA's will give detail.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:54:26 (GMT) From: GR Email: guy@architx.com To: Katie Subject: PAM = Person Around Maharaji Message:

Thanks for the education. I figure 'nt' must be no text...I'm fast!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:26:35 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: GR Subject: you got it! Message:

Pretty smart! Some of this is just standard internet lingo - and if you haven't posted on another board, it can be confusing: nt = no text (took me forever to figure that one out) LOL = laughing out loud ROFL (and variations) = rolling on the floor laughing BTW = by the way IMHO or IMO or JMO = in my honest opinion, or in my opinion, or just my opinion :) or or (g) = smile or grin I know there are more...

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:44:13 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Katie--to guy Subject: OT=subject off topic(not gmj dish)...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:41:23 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: guy Subject: Just realized you probably know all this! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:21:00 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael Dettmers, a personal post to you Message:

Hey Michael - I wrote this to someone in e-mail last night, so thought I'd say it to you in person. I REALLY appreciate your posting on this forum - I know that you got kind of a rough reception at first, and I appreciate your perseverance and your willingness to examine your ideas and beliefs about Maharaji. As you probably know, I've been hanging around this forum and site for a long time, and your posts about your experiences have been a major 'drip' (see Anth's Journey) for so many people. I think you have caused many people to think about their involvement with Maharaji, and I think that has helped these people tremendously. I'm also happy for your sake that you are not the only certified PAM here anymore - must be kind of a relief, eh? Take care - and thanks. Katie H. P.S. Brian and I hope to meet you in person some time soon. We did sneak up to Charlottesville a few months ago to have an top secret X-rated Aussie/US ex-premie meeting at the 'Amaroo Inn' :).

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:30:51 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Katie H. Subject: Thanks Message:

Katie, I am delighted that Michael Donner is sharing his information and perspective on the Forum and I encourage other ex-PAMs to do the same. Since we're practically neighbors, let's get together on your next visit to C'Ville. Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:37:07 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: You're welcome Message:

We'll be in touch. Actually, we were in C'ville the weekend of the Va. Tech/Virginia game last year, and had to be FAR more secretive about being Hokies than about being ex-premies :). But it's a great town. Take care, Katie

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:48:31 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Katie H. Subject: Oh no! Message:

Katie, I am an assistant coach with UVA's mens ice hockey team. We lost this year to the Hokies in the playoffs. Better not visit during hockey season next year. I'll definately 'out' you. Michael

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:57:11 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Oh no! is right Message:

LOL - we'll be sure to wear all our Hokie paraphenalia up there to embarass you. Also will be depending on you to protect us - those hockey players can be mean WHEN they have their pads, etc. on. Katie the former Caps fan :) (actually we don't get good coverage of hockey down here, despite the Roanoke team, so have switched to being a big college/NFL football fan.)

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:14:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Who ME?? As Bal Bhagwan Ji use to say Message:

I'm nothing. I'm just a bag of bones. But, the pathetic thing is ... naw, it's not worth getting into. Okay, you can stay. For now, at least.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:26:17 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim, let's just let Bahgwans be Bahgwans /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:30:19 (GMT) From: Jim :) Email: None To: Richard Subject: Cute but, Richard, let's face it, that's a pun Message:

I'm inclined to avoid puns being that they were one of the tools Maharaji used to enslave us. Well, that's one reason. Frankly, puns scare me. They're like clowns, kinda. Know what I mean? You wouldn't want a clown sitting right next to you when you're trying to eat or anything, would you? Well, same thing. Only instead of a clown, it's a pun.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:31:53 (GMT) From: Richard (|:-)[~~]X Email: None To: Jim :) Subject: Very punny Jim Message:

You're clowning around, right? Well I happen to love wordplay of any kind, pun or otherwise. Now clowns, that's another story. They freak my out. Always have. Don't know why but they seem dishonest in a malevolent sort of way. And ever since I saw that photo of John Wayne Gacey in clown drag it sort of capped any hope I ever had of overcoming my Bozophobia. And mimes - mimes should be rounded up and forced to perform for the blind while trapped in a real glass box.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 09:51:07 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Richard (|:-)[~~]X Subject: love puns, hate clowns. watch out. now i know! Message:

Jim, i now have yet one more way to annoy you and drive you to drink and civil suits. richard, great to find a kindred spirit. the bhagwan number was choice. more??

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:48:08 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: janet Subject: FA - Could you please sweep this post for threats? Message:

I'm not sure but I think Janet's threatening me. Trouble is, I'm a little slow this morning after we got a little Latvian last night. Juts a litle. But I think there's a threat in there. Something to do with clowns or something. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 15:11:38 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: janet Subject: Bozophobiacs Unite Message:

that was great. I share Jim's pun shyness as well, same reason, heard to many in the cult. Didn't 'if it doesn't fit, you must acquit' sound like Charnanand would have said it? Stupid rhymes were big too.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 18:51:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: I would LOL if I wasn't half asleep Message:

Susan, First, I was kidding. Shit, now I have to even tell YOU that? YOU, Susan? Oh my God! But second, that was a very, very, very ....Susan that was just so fucking funny! 'If it fits, you must acquit'! By the way, I'm thinking of using that as a joke some day in a jury adress. Haven't had the guts to do it yet but, well, some day.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 07:26:02 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim :) Subject: I love puns, and clowns. Homey don't play dat n/t Message:

Homey the clown from 'In Living Color' boy he was mean.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 23:10:25 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: LOL!!! Touche......nt Message:

mm

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:38:03 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: mishkat@tigerriver.com To: Michael Donner Subject: Thanks, Michael Donner Message:

Hi Michael - (I know what you mean about being named Michael and being called Mike, by the way!) This forum is moving so fast that it took me forever to find it, but I was particularly struck by something you said in one of your posts below. You wrote: in retrospect, it feels to me that most of what we learned and have carried forword into our current lives (my current life) was is due, not to m personally, rather his message/ideal we heard and lots of it in spite of him...overcoming him and being willing to hold on to the true love that i discovered while there..for me that is jeff, teddy, joe, dic, michael, gary, don, etc etc.etc. loving and nuturing myself, empowering myself. all in spite of his best efforts to try to get me to leave, ignore, refect, all but him. I don't really agree with you about M's 'message/ideal', because I don't recall him saying anything about connecting with other people/premies. But I definitely agree with you about the community and the individuals I met when I was a premie being the best part about my involvement. The premies I met when I first started going to satsang were SO accepting and kind - I was attending satsang with a group of friends who were all about 15 to 18 years old and most of us were basically pretty weird and somewhat freaked out at the time. (I particularly remember the kindness of Susie Whitten, Jackie Murphy, and Connie Best, but know there were many others). I really haven't kept in touch with people I knew from my old premie days, except of course, people who I was friends with when I became a premie - my sister, my best friend, and others. However, Brian and I have met a LOT of ex-premies, and we have felt a strong sense of connection still there. I think it has something to do with being the kind of people who would be attracted to Maharaji in the first place AND with being the kind of people who would leave Maharaji. You wrote in the message Susan copied above: i really liked the community aspect of the k/service experience and that was not the vib around the residence...all single pointed focus of course...very boring and re being a PAM everyone knew there was a mile long line of others wanting to be there in our place. so we were all individuals in our own closed systems walking round never really connecting with each other. reminds me of lots of painful feeling of how isolated i felt during...especially...1980-84...bored to... and ...clearly m used the x-rated status as a means of coopting us into increased loyalty....playing on that part of us (me) that liked to be special...probably power related also....at least i noticed how others felt more powerful once inside the circle, so it must have been something in me too. My worst memories of being a premie are of myself trying to get more involved with the people who were closer to Maharaji (really just ashram premies, for me - I never knew any PAM's, and NEVER saw Maharaji close up except in darshan.) There was a definite social pecking order, and I wanted to climb higher on it - I wasn't just content to be a sort of fringe premie (I was a VERY insecure teenager and you know how many teenagers always want to be in the 'in crowd' anyway!) And of course, this led to a lot of anxiety about being in the right place at festivals, etc, having the right service, being 'connected' to the ashram premies, etc. I was pretty callous to some of the premies I was closest to because they didn't have the right 'devoted status'. About isolation - I remember very well the 'space-out' of 1976 when most of the premies (including me) were loosening up, relaxing, moving out of the ashram, having fun with each other, and generally having a good time. I particularly remember one festival in Providence RI in 1976 when we did not do the whole darshan ritual (and how competitive THAT was) - just walked past Maharaji and bowed or waved or whatever. It was wonderful. I also particularly remember the 'rededication' message of late 1976 and early 1977, when we were basically told to stop having fun and to stop relating to each other as people, and focus on being devoted to Maharaji. I still have horrible memories of a Holi festival in Miami where I felt completely alienated from everyone because of this. (I left shortly thereafter - couldn't handle it.) Of course, since then, Maharaji has tightened up the isolation and estrangement between premies even further by stopping satsang, not allowing people to talk about knowledge, and generally being extremely secretive and paranoid. I personally know of at least a few premies who lurk around this forum because we are actually allowed to talk to each other. It ain't satsang, but IMHO it's the closest thing to the after-satsang chit-chat sessions (which I loved) that exists today. I honestly don't know how people can deal with being involved today unless they have a very strong personal support system of people who they ARE allowe to talk to. Well, this is getting kind of long, but I wanted to let you know that I appreciated your comments about the kind of people who became premies, and the isolation that Maharaji has attempted to impose on premies then and now. (This 'divide and conquer' and 'blaming the messenger' and scapegoating is extremely common in alcoholic or other dysfunctional families, by the way - it was present in my family when I was growing up, and I only survived because my sister and I refused to let our alcoholic parents come between us.) Take care - Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:24:55 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Susan Subject: Thank you, Mike Message:

This is really important stuff you're sharing with us, Mike. I hope it helps you to share it as much as it does for us to hear about it. Maybe more PAMs will come forward to cleanse their own souls as well in days to come. If this stuff that you and Dettmer's claim happenned really did, than anybody else who was there to witness it really should. It's just pure selfishness not to. Hats off to you and Dettmers. At least two of you cared enough to step forward. I really hope more do in the future. Maybe they just don't understand how important it is that they do. It's real important. The truth always is.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 21:15:16 (GMT) From: GR Email: guy@architx.com To: Donner Subject: In response to your Answers: Message:

Donner wrote: honestly, i care very little what will happen, except to be willing to reach out and spend some time with those who might benefit from someone on the outside who has been there. ***** Michael, I second your ending statement (above). Good post, very fair and accurate.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:46:10 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: GR Subject: I agree with you, Guy Message:

Honestly, I find Maharaji to be VERY boring. (I believe that saying which goes 'The opposite of love isn't hate - it's indifference.) And after being around this site and forum for a while, I find Maharaji to be even MORE boring. He IS boring, IMHO. However, I don't find the people who read and post here (both ex-premies and premies) to be boring, and I am glad that you and both Michael D.'s feel the same way. Take care, Katie H.

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Date: Sat, Mar 17, 2001 at 22:10:04 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: GR Subject: Question, Guy Message:

You referred in an earlier post to being blamed by Maharaji concering the purchase of a plane (apparently along with someone else), when in reality you had opposed the purchase. Can you explain the details of that? Also, regarding the Boeing 707. I was at Deca for awhile and in Miami for some time after that while the plane was being worked on. Whose idea was that project in the first place? Who had the idea of getting a passenger plane and converting it? I know M was into it, but do you know how it got started? I sat in on a meeting with Virgil, Hession and a bunch of other people, maybe you were there in about September, 1979, when the whole plane purchase was talked about. Virgil was livid at the way the plane purchase was handled, and Hession explained the corporate structure for owning the plane. Do you recall any of that?

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 00:20:55 (GMT) From: GR Email: guy@architx.com To: Joe Subject: Question, Guy Message:

You referred in an earlier post to being blamed by Maharaji concering the purchase of a plane (apparently along with someone else), when in reality you had opposed the purchase. Can you explain the details of that? ****** First, let me say that my memory for time and detail is not nearly so good as Dettmers and Donner.... Before one of M's around the world trips, he sent me to look at used bizjets in several cities (while he was gone). This was probably because the 707 was proving to be to big, too expensive, too old to operate. We ended up buying and renovating an older Hawker-Siddley. I pointed out some of it's deficiencies, but M was enthusiastic. I don't believe it had sufficient range. We installed new interior, new avionics, paint, etc. The first time M wanted to fly there was some mechanical/electrical problem that kept it grounded. He was disappointed and I don't believe he ever used it after that -- or used it very little. ***** Also, regarding the Boeing 707. I was at Deca for awhile and in Miami for some time after that while the plane was being worked on. Whose idea was that project in the first place? Who had the idea of getting a passenger plane and converting it? I know M was into it, but do you know how it got started? ****** Dettmers probably has more background on this than I do. I had moved back to Malibu and was living with some folks in a house in Trancas Canyon. I got a call to come up to the residence and heard from M about the plan to purchase a plane. I was asked to produce a deck plan (floor plan). At this time I had no aviation experience. Soon thereafter we moved the operation to Miami and began IMMCO (?), which became DECA. ***** I sat in on a meeting with Virgil, Hession and a bunch of other people, maybe you were there in about September, 1979, when the whole plane purchase was talked about. Virgil was livid at the way the plane purchase was handled, and Hession explained the corporate structure for owning the plane. Do you recall any of that? ***** No, I don't remember the particular meeting you mention. I saw the jet (an old Pan Am B707) at the Miami airport before it was purchased. I was never involved in the details of the purchase.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:11:14 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: GR Subject: The 707 Message:

Joe and Guy, The idea for securing and converting a large jet into a flying residence for him and his family was Maharaji’s. Who else would come up with such an idea? He had seen world leaders disembark their private L1011’s, and DC10’s on TV and thought, “Why not me?” Let me give you a little additional background for this decision. In November 1977, Maharaji held an international Hans Jayanti festival in Rome. The person who was tasked with securing a chartered aircraft to transport M and his family encountered some last minute snags, and the deal fell through. Consequently, M et. al. were forced to travel First Class on SAS Airways from LA to Denmark. At the time, M had two very young children, Wadi and Hansi. One or both of them cried throughout most of the flight. Several of the First Class passengers complained about the noise. Maharaji, who was now quite drunk and needed to pee, was very uncomfortable using the public head. I distinctly remember him coming to my seat and saying, “This is the worst experience I have ever had in my life.” He wasn’t exactly blaming me for the situation, but he was making it clear that it was my job to see that he never had to fly commercial airlines again. To complete this journey, we managed to charter a Folker jet for the trip from Denmark to Rome. While in Rome, I took charge of securing a charter aircraft from Rome to … (I can’t remember if he went home to Malibu, or if he headed for London). In any case, the chartered aircraft lost an engine shortly after takeoff. The plane had to circle Rome while dumping fuel before making an emergency landing back in Rome. That did it. Maharaji made it absolutely clear that I had to secure him a plane that could accommodate him, his family and his staff and that it had to be a plane that was impeccably maintained by his people. No more charters. During this period, Maharaji owned a twin-engine Cessna aircraft, which he used for personal recreation -vacations to the Bahamas and such. Following the Rome fiasco, he charged his co-pilot with the task of finding a suitable aircraft. The result was the used Boeing 707, one of the first Pan Am 707’s in service, and now comfortably retired on an airfield in Dublin, Ireland. I was in M’s office in Malibu when he received a call from his co-pilot enthusiastically proclaiming that he had found the “diamond in the rough” aircraft that was just perfect for Maharaji. Maharaji poured us each another drink and I was dispatched to Ireland with Raja Ji to consummate the deal. Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:38:50 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hans Jayanti 77 - different travelling styles! Message:

God, Michael, thanks for that post! That brought back some memories for me. Hans Jayanti Rome 77 was my honeymoon (yes, only on this site could I admit this!). A whole bunch of us travelled from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England, to Rome on a double-decker bus with metal-backed seats! There were lots of small kids on that bus. Someone's baby caught a virus ( or some sort of serious bug -can't remember what) and nearly died. The bus hit a bridge at a border stopping, narrowly avoiding maiming the adults and kids upstairs in the front seats. Kids cried a lot ( as they would stuck on a bus for 3 days!). But the thing about your post that gets me even more than god-in-a-bod's transport demands, is that he was getting pissed. And there's us, seriously deprived of sleep and comfort ( not to mention sanity), worshipping him as Krishna!

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 02:37:26 (GMT) From: observer Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: aircraft accident study Message:

'In any case, the chartered aircraft lost an engine shortly after takeoff. The plane had to circle Rome while dumping fuel before making an emergency landing back in Rome.' I heard about a study done by premies on aircraft accidents. That seems to shed light on why this was done. Maybe he was simply afraid of death.

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 01:30:41 (GMT) From: GR Email: guy@architx.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: The 707 Message:

Thanks for the background, Michael. I heard about a lot of things (at the time) that I wasn't involved in, but now it's all dim memories. Must have worked too hard at DECA! Was it December '77 when we began the project in Malibu and January, '78 when I/we arrived in Miami? Thanks, Guy

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:18:13 (GMT) From: Alan Fenstermacher Email: alan@woodcon.com To: Guy + MD'S Subject: The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process Message:

Guy Michael or Mike, Did any of these major projects ever go through any kind of process to develop a budget before they proceeded or did M tell you what he wanted and then you had to go find the money? I ask because the last project I worked on for DLM was the Denver Unity School (76) and I remember the school had x number of dollars so the project was going to be built for x and when I received all the material quotes it was like 3x. I was told not to worry and the principal was going to ask DLM for the money. In the end it was a lot of fund-raisers and some scaling back, but all this was discovered after the building had been purchased or leased. A-

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Date: Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 04:09:22 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Alan Fenstermacher Subject: The 707 - General Projects Budgeting Process Message:

Alan, Yes, there was