Susan -:- Question for Dettmers, Donner or anyone else who -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:54:19 (GMT)

__ Michael Dettmers -:- Question for Dettmers, Donner or anyone else who -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:33:03 (GMT)

__ __ suchabanana -:- dunrite/dunwrong. Poor Geof (and Kim)... also!... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:40:18 (GMT)

__ donner -:- Question for Dettmers, Donner or anyone else who -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:07:10 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- Imagine swirled peas!AA:m and 10,000 co-dependents -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:50:34 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Very interesting -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:05:06 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- The codependent dance and larf potential -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:26:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- M's excuse that (to him) justifies the whole trip -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:09:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Story of O -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:35:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Rawat's self-delusion -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:43:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Rawat's self-delusion -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:50:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Whoa -- did you see this part -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:50:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Rawat's self-delusion -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:20:35 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 17:54:19 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Question for Dettmers, Donner or anyone else who
Message:

can speculate...

I know you all have been out a while, but...

I get the impression from your posts that even with the incredible wealth the Guru has he also has a chronic inability to live within his means. I wonder if you both might speculate on how he would do if the money stopped coming in. Do you think he could be far enough in debt to be hurt? Do you think he has sheltered himself in such a way that he would never have to declare bancruptcy even if he never got another dime from a premie?

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 21:33:03 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Susan
Subject: Question for Dettmers, Donner or anyone else who
Message:

Susan

What I have to say here is based upon some of the comments I made in my responses to Joe’s thread below entitled: “More on the 707/Questions for the Mikes and Guy.” As you know, by 1985 I was strongly advocating that Maharaji come down off the throne and engage in meaningful dialogue with people, premies or otherwise. For that to happen, I knew it was necessary to undo the cult apparatus. I particularly wanted to bring an end to the constant fundraising. Besides addressing the legal concerns I spoke about, I envisioned that if Maharaji became independently wealthy through his business interests, we could eliminate the need to fundraise at all. If the reports by Richard and la-ex are true, it would appear that the strategy has worked, at least the part about him becoming independently wealthy. I say, “it would appear” because the transactions to which they referred took place after I left.

So, in principle at least, Maharaji should have no difficulty living within his very considerable means. Yet, the fundraising continues and PWKs justify to themselves that $40M planes, and $7M yachts, and mansions around the world are really essential tools for M to fulfill his noble mission. In the meantime, reliable sources tell me that Amaroo and Dunright have accumulated substantial debts. If these edifices come crashing down because of creditor lawsuits, it is the PWKs who serve in Director and Officer positions that will be left holding the bag.

Why is this happening? My only conclusion is that, despite his wealth, Maharaji’s greed knows no boundaries. Many PWKs don’t see this or don’t want to believe it. They choose, instead, to bury their heads in the sand and trust that it is M’s mercy and compassion that compels him to create such wonderful opportunities for his devotees to serve him. Donner has underscored this and other aspects of the cult belief system in his post so I won’t go into that now.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:40:18 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: dunrite/dunwrong. Poor Geof (and Kim)... also!...
Message:

It's all my fault about Kathy Gliebe [director of SEVA]. [whip, whip, lash] I was too good at giving satsang and converting the great unwashed. Oh, what a headache, even to think about it now...

Kathy and Jim, at UCSB, k-i-s-s-i-n-g,
first came satsang, then came ashram,
then came SEVA with a shell corp cash scam.

Ah, woe is me, woe is me... [wrenching hair and gnashing of teeth] Oh, the Light is getting bright; ok, then, just forget about the 'woe', and let's go with the proverbial flow...

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:07:10 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Question for Dettmers, Donner or anyone else who
Message:

dettmers will be in the best position to answer this of anyone. i do not know really. certainly he could live within his means which are probably very very considerable by now.

but, what would he do aboutthe illusion he has created for himself and lives within...like 'i do and want all this so that the premies can experice service and giving'. his illusion/excuse/justification is all about framing everything in relationship to spreading knowledge...the planes, houses, etc. or framing things around creating opportunities for premies to give...poor guy, just has to keep putting out, travelling etc so that the premies can be happy. keep thinking about co-dependent relationships...he needs the premies and believes (as all co-dependents do) that he does all this for the premies. premies think they do what they do for him. and the co-dependent dance continues....until we have enough and are wanting and ready to move on...hopefully learning enough about that process within ourselves so as not to have to repeat it again in another situation...

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:50:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Imagine swirled peas!AA:m and 10,000 co-dependents
Message:

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000et al...

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 19:05:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Very interesting
Message:

That's an interesting take, regarding the co-dependent relationship. That makes a lot of sense.

I frankly can't fathom what Maharaji thinks about it all, especially after all these years. For example, can one tell if, when Maharaji says he needs a new plane, car, yacht, whatever, and that it's for 'spreading knowledge,' no matter how ridiculous that is, or that it's just a gift to the premies to give them an opportunity to 'participate' or 'express graditude' or 'do service' (in earlier days), whether he actually believes that, or is just making excuses because he's a megalomaniac and greedy. To someone who is objectively looking at it, it would be the latter. But maybe that's over-simplified.

But I can't believe that Maharaji still holds those beliefs entirely. I just gotta believe that his failure to spread knowledge has to be obvious to him, and must have in some ways made him doubt his motivations, or his ability, or his sincerety, or something like that. It just doesn't seem possible that a human could be that deluded to not see that, and then make more cynical, conscious decisions to just play the role to get what he wants. Who knows?

But what you say about his followers is very significant to me, because the delusion there has to be substanitally less. It's like what Guy was saying about 'needing' or 'liking' being in the devotee role for a period of his life, and then he sort of outgrew it. Something like that. The idea that there are just people who 'need' to be in that role, and people who don't.

Maybe that's true, but to me it seems just a little dangerous to say that being a devotee to another human being, is ever a healthy thing, even if you like it, or you think you like it. I guess because there is always the danger that one would hang out in that role forever, and continually compromise and limit his or her life to keep it going, and because I just think being a devotee is really destructive to the human spirit to self-actualization, to ones ability to have meaningful relationships, etc.

That's what really irritates me when people say they just 'enjoy' being a premie, and being, to one degree or another, devoted to Maharaji. It's just such a closed system, that way, with so little in the way of thorough examination of what really is going on.

I guess I agree with the authors of 'The Guru Papers' in their contention that the devotee/master relationship is an authoritarian system that is inherently pathological and always prone to abuse. From this side of being a former devotee, I really think that's true.

Michael, your posts about your personal observations, and especially your feelings you had and continue to have about all this are really valuable. Thanks so much.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 18:26:23 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: The codependent dance and larf potential
Message:

Never quite got it so clearly - the mutuality of the codependent dance we played with MJ.

Although I got quite a mouthful of 'that' codependent experience, I can't say I completed this pattern when I left MJ. This last weekend I was in a working situation in which I suddenly realized I had gone into a kind of 'service trance,' which felt quite blissful, but caused me to override my body yet again, and get an intense migraine. The weird thing is, the service trance felt fantastic when I was in it. Because I have been posting and reading here a lot recently, my cult experience was on my mind, and as I suddenly woke up and realized that I was enjoying giving myself away, I consciously flashed on moments of doing service as a premie, weak and exhausted, yet taking no thought for myself, because I was serving the Lord. A sort of extracurricular energy would take over, which I thought was me getting grace or accessing some infinite source or something, but which I now know was me running on pure adrenal energy. (I know because I barely have any adrenals left).

It is very funny to think that MJ lives within this belief system that he is doing premies a favor by indulging all his addictions. I see great potential for some great larfs if we develop this theme. Any takers?

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 20:09:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: M's excuse that (to him) justifies the whole trip
Message:

'doing premies a favor ...'

Is that really what he says to himself?

Good grief.

And to think that we thought we were gratifying him! (or Him, as the case may be).

In a strange way it reminds me of a movie that was just broadcast on UK television for the first time the other night - 'The Story of O' (the subtitled version).

I didn't get off on it much (maybe because of - or should that be despite - my experience as a masochistic premie?), but the parallels between devotion to a guru and the desire to want to be 'owned' by a lover (as apparently 'O' exhibited) were plain to see.

Sado-masochism and revering Maharaji might appear to be very strange bedfellows to anyone still 'in bed with' Maharaji, if you get my meaning. But self-justification can play strange tricks on one.

.
.
.

To think that M's ultimate excuse for all his excesses is: 'I was just doing it for the premies' -

jeez, .... it takes the biscuit, it really does.

.
.
And probably after that attempt at self-justification comes - 'I was only doing what my father wanted ...'

Peeeeyoooooooooo!

Isn't it about time all cults came with a mental health warning?

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 02:35:15 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Story of O
Message:

Hmmm. O never said much except 'I love you' and that's all she needed back.

'IloveyouIloveyouIloveyou... thank you for coming toniiiight.'

We asked for it.

Yuk

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:43:36 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Rawat's self-delusion
Message:

When parents push a child unreasonably into being someone very special, those children sometimes develop Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I think this is the only way to imagine Mr. Rawat's psychology.

These following thoughts are probably uppermost in Rawat's mind as they perpetually play themselves over and over again: 'I am the Master.' 'I am chosen and entitled.' 'People should serve me.'

There is no room for doubt in his mind.

I suggest that Mr. Rawat take the test and compare himself to the eight major symptoms. However, this disorder is typically so deeply ingrained that there is no cure.

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 19:50:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Rawat's self-delusion
Message:

Interest site there, Way

this you might find funny -

I clicked (for reasons you won't want to know about) on the index and selected 'Schizophrenia; paranoid'.

Guess what it said?

'coming soon!'

whooooooooah there!

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:50:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Whoa -- did you see this part
Message:

Great one Way. Right own!

Did you get a load of these parst:

Narcissistic personality disorder
Causes and Risks:
. . . Narcissistic people are unable to perceive themselves and others accurately. They often feel entitled to special treatment by others and can become demanding, angry, and easily offended.

Where have we heard about this before? Even us outsiders in the ashram saw the Kissimmee rant.

and this:

Symptoms:
reacts to criticism with feelings or rage, shame or humiliation
takes advantage of others to achieve own goals
self-important
exaggerates achievements and talents
preoccupation with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love
unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment
requires constant attention and admiration
lacks empathy

Also this one -- the kicker:

Complications:
may interfere with relationship with others
alcohol use or drug abuse

Cognac and bong therapy, here we come. Yikes. Mata Ji and the Mahatmas created a monster. Even Saddle Pal is to blame, because I believe he was content to put his brother through this and ride the gravy train. Of course, he decided he could make his move when M married Marolyn and alienate many of the Indians against the white devil hussy, take over Prem Nagar, and strike out on his own quite handily.

Francesca

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:20:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Way
Subject: Rawat's self-delusion
Message:

Like in the twelve-step programs, once you've identified the problem and admitted you've got it, recovery is possible. But in this case, don't hold your breath - it's very precious!

Steve

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