Pam -:- 'my memoirs' -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:54:30 (EDT)

__ PC -:- It is you Jim? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:47 (EDT)

__ __ don -:- Re: It is you Jim? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:09:09 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Peter, your head is up your arse. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:56:39 (EDT)

__ __ Know It All -:- Fictitious people -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:34 (EDT)

__ PC -:- It is you Jim? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:12 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- why is that funny to you???????????? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:09:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: why is that funny to you? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Selene- btdt/vicki quote from below -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:54:47 (EDT)

__ Elaine -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:20:12 (EDT)

__ __ Stonor -:- Hi Elaine! (ot) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:58:54 (EDT)

__ Chuck S. -:- Anonymity and Comfort Zones... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:33 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Good post, Chuck [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:00:03 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- ELOQUENT, my dear, simply eloquent!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:54:57 (EDT)

__ Been There -:- Pam: A few questions -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:06:32 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Been There - Read Abi's post below! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ Been There -:- To JHB: I'm speechless -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Okay, PAM, I apologize -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- One HUGE point of disagreement -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:14:38 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Well said, Francesca [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:34:26 (EDT)

__ Tonette -:- Thank you! Another chapter -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:11:24 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Thank you, Pam -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:41:24 (EDT)

__ janet -:- ***best of forum*** -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:54:53 (EDT)

__ don -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:34:23 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Flawed logic. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:35:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ don -:- Re: Flawed logic. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:04:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- There will be no whitewash in the shitehouse. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:20 (EDT)

__ Yves et Danielle ARGANT -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 08:57:11 (EDT)

__ __ Nick -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:59:20 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Yves et Danielle -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:36:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- I translated Combat magazine.. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:00:31 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:40:04 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Excellent post Pam -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:51:15 (EDT)

__ Patrick Wilson -:- My reaction and further comment... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:50:37 (EDT)

__ __ hamzen -:- Re Indian languages ex-premie sites?Pat C? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:59:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re Indian languages ex-premie sites? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:12:53 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Just answer the questions ma'am. -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:25:14 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 05:17:31 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:36:12 (EDT)

__ __ don chauvi -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:39:02 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:51:12 (EDT)

__ __ CW -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:39:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ bob -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:32:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:12:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Asst FA -:- Things change? No, only aliases -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:36:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Things change? No, only aliases -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:22:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Woddyathinkcat? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:45:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Anth you forgot a couple og things -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:08:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Anth you forgot a couple og things -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:04:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Cat, hang on a minute. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:42:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Hey Cat, hang on a minute. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- What about my question Cat? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:39:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Sometimes you almost sound human but... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:24:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- He is human Pat. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:52:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Sometimes you almost sound human but... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:29:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Only 'mildly innaccurate' eh Cat -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:33:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Of course premies say EV is only Maya! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:54:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Not so -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 07:37:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: Not so -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 08:11:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Not so -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 10:15:13 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- Underwhelmed? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:34:55 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Re: Interesting but I am underwhelmed -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 06:34:20 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Thanks Pam -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 04:32:16 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- ANOTHER BEST, BEST OF FORUM!!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:39:37 (EDT)

__ __ bob -:- Re: ANOTHER BEST, BEST OF FORUM!!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:13:38 (EDT)

__ Jim S. -:- Required reading for all... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:23:11 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:14:38 (EDT)

__ A Friend -:- Re: 'my memoirs' -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:02:36 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Whoever you are -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:01:37 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- not a cow shits? ha :) -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:49:02 (EDT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: not a cow shits? ha :) -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:12:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- I see your point -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:39:48 (EDT)

__ JHB (EPO Webmaster) -:- Could you email me please? -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:31:16 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- A small disagreement and an agreement -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:24:09 (EDT)

__ Susan -:- thank you thank you -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 22:22:38 (EDT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: thank you thank you -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:08:21 (EDT)

__ Mr. Dooley -:- Simply the BEST thing ever written here [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:37:34 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- What an amazingly excellent post! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:19:50 (EDT)

__ __ Barbara -:- Totally Outstanding...Just Amazing... -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 21:51:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: Totally Outstanding...Just Amazing... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 01:15:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Applause, applause! -:- Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 23:00:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Applause, applause! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:08:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ***Applause! Applause! BTDT!! BEST OF*** -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 22:12:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Excellent both of you, Cynth and Vicki -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:13:48 (EDT)

Date: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:54:30 (EDT)
From: Pam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'my memoirs'
Message:

'Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to
examine the laws of heat.' - Novalis

Greetings to premies and ex-premies,

Over recent years, as one of Maharaji's organisers, and an occasional PAM, I've seen many disturbing things in the world of Knowledge. Additionally, in conversation with other premies, numbers of equally disturbing things have been told to me. One, two, I could walk over, but gradually a picture has emerged that causes me concern for the welfare of people under Maharaji's aegis.

I have come to the conclusion that it is time to say something about all of this. For a number of reasons that I do not wish to debate, I am choosing to remain anonymous.

For myself, it is now clear, I am no longer a part of Maharaji's world, and though I do not wish to become a regular member of the ex premie forum, I would like to thank all involved for their insights and information, and for providing this forum for those people who are looking for answers.

I started some time back putting down in writing all the things that are disturbing me. I've decided the best idea is to 'publish' appropriate extracts of this document here.

Information is a powerful tool, though very little of it has been furnished to us by Maharaji's organisation, or by Maharaji himself. Indeed if I had to name the one pervasive theme of my experience with M - from the very early 1970s till 2001 - it would be secrecy. I am sure there are intelligence organisations that have less secrets than EV, and international spies who have less secrets than PAMs. For three decades, I have been one of the worst offenders.

Information, of the type which has been provided at EPO and on the Forum - and below, I hope - allows premies, aspirants and interested outsiders to make informed decisions about joining or not joining, staying or leaving.

In a way, all the opinions about M are secondary. The fact that Maharaji killed the cyclist in Delhi, and shifted the blame to a premie; that he drinks heavily; that he has selected premie women as sexual playthings; that he is worth 50 million US dollars; that for 25 years he has covered up, and declined to act on, a close lieutenant's sexual abuse of children...all this speaks volumes to those who want to make an informed decision. Our commentary and analysis is close to redundant.

So, here is some more of that information - plus, admittedly, a bit of commentary. Another little corner of the M/K/DLM/EV jigsaw which grew so large for us over the last 30 years. A jigsaw which, till the ex-premie organisation started changing so many lives, we were only shown one or two pieces of at a time.

The below is 18 pages - at least on my PC - so you may want to download it to your machine.

Warm regards,

Pam

****************************************xxxxxx

'How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?' - C.G. Jung

It's been a long trek from the belly of the beast, up the esophagus, out the mouth and into the daylight. I hardly recognize the landscape, I've been in that belly so long.

Quite recently, I've been in the strange positon of doing service for M while in my heart having left him. It was weird - but I got by. I made the final leap when I was ready. In the meantime I attended programs, did my work/service, and went through darshan, without feeling anything. It's bizarre to be in the cult environment and simultaneously deprogram yourself - but it can be done.

What caused the shift? I think simply growing up was part of it. Believing in Santa Claus in advanced middle age just seemed too silly for words. Believing that Maharaji was the Living Master, to say nothing of the incarnation of God, was truly beyond the pale - especially when you'd learned enough of what he is like behind the stage act. (See below for all that.)

But surely Maharaji hasn't taught that he's the incarnation of God since the 1970s?

Yep. Sampuranand declared M to be Lord Krishna (the supreme God of Hinduism) onstage before 80,000 people in Delhi, in the late 1990s. M got up onstage straight after, to support the statement. The Indians loved it of course, though many of us Westerners were a little startled. What about the PR trainings we've had, where we're taught to tell media people that M has never claimed to be God? Maybe it doesn't apply if his statement is not made on American soil??

But in the end - in a strange quirk of fate - it was something little that did it for me. It was a conversation M had with a few of us about computers. Basically he was raving about Macs - how superior they were. I like Macs - though I don't own one - but frankly they are no better than PCs. They just come with a different set of pluses and minuses. M's brand chauvanism seemed really petty to me, and it made me wonder for the first time if he was such a wise figure after all. Funny how a trivial thing like that can trigger all your subterrainian doubts.

Once those doubts began, they were like a torrent. Years of drips, then the Amazon in full flood. Once the 'doubtmaker' - i.e. your mind - begins to awaken, there's no stopping it. I could no more regard M as a special person now than fly to the moon. Even being in a room with him, toward the end, I just saw the screen on which I projected all my love, divinity, fear, and a whole bunch of Freudian father stuff. He's so ordinary once you see all that in yourself.

But the last thing I want to do now is to make him into a monster. That's giving him an equal amount of power. In truth Maharaji is a pleasant enough guy much of the time. He is relaxed and relaxing to be with, and likes to make jokes and keep it light. He certainly relaxes in the company of men better than that of women - but he can get along with women too.

He's just got the equation round the wrong way. M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion.

What else could it be? You can't assess it or comprehend it. In practise (not in theory) it comes and goes all the time. 90% of those who practice it divorce their spouses. The organisation comprised of those who practice it is chronically dysfunctional - with leaders few people have liked, going back 30 years.

Shattering stuff to realise after three decades - virtually the whole of one's adult life. A little like spending 30 years in Heaven, and at the end seeing that the angels were just guys with 5 o'clock shadow and acne who were paid $5 an hour to dress up; that all the singing was taped; and that the Almighty and his throne were just a pretty hologram.

Bitterly disillusioning for a bit. But liberating thereafter - because finally you have some choices.

************************************************xxxx

'Repetition and forced attention are very conducive to the induction of a
trance.' - Steve Hassan

'Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me.' - Maharaji

With some exceptions, premies as a group are low achievers. The reason, of course, is that premies' ideas about Maharaji and Knowledge depreciate the value of all other endeavour. Whether it's stated or not - and it isn't, thesedays - doing 'other things' just doesn't cut the ice that 'achieving the purpose of this life' does.

So people who could be flying jets or creating successful businesses end up spending a lot of time sitting under blankets with their fingers in their ears.

And one person who spends very little time with his fingers in his ears ends up flying jets.

If you speak to any long-term PAMs - e.g. John Miller (captain of M's old yacht) or Randy Prouty - they'll tell you than M cannot not do events. He adores being adored.

There's only one Major Achiever in the world of Knowledge - not 10,000. And there's only one person at a major event who is completely comfortable in the knowledge of who he is. Everybody else is shooting for the false moon he has installed in a false sky, and can never know rest.

********************************************xx

'Whatever deceives seems to produce a magical enchantment.' -Plato

I know others have said there were no financial improprieties in EV. I can only speak from my own experience - which is that EV was substantially a cash organisation until the 1990s.

Money raised from the membership for Maharaji's personal use - e.g. a new quarters at the 'Windmill' area of Amaroo, costing several hundred thousand dollars - is still kept off the books.

Assuming one could keep Raja Ji's drink-sodden hands off them, the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out $10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are.

Raja Ji still pursues his traditional role of schmoozing, wining, dining and flattering rich premies to extract $$$ from them for the family coffers. This is not always successful, as some of these people have class, and Raja Ji is a rather gauche character.

Having seen things from the inside, I'm still kind of shattered that thousands of innocent premies around the West think this thing is about Knowledge, love and the rest. It's a family business, and it's about money. Every recent Indian guru is the same: Sai Baba, Mukhtananda and Osho all trade(d) their spiritual credentials (which, like Maharaji's, are mostly faked anyway), and a convincing stage act, for cash payments from westerners who see themselves as spiritually impoverished.

Money is the main game, but these people also get side-benefits from devotees, such as sex: Sai Baba gives oral sex to adolescent boys in the guise of some ceremony; Mukhtananda was well-known for raping adolescent girls in the guise of transferring 'shakti'; and Osho (a.k.a. Shri Rajneesh) would bonk anything that moved - telling his credulous followers that sex and enlightenment were more or less the same thing.

Most of the above tolerate(d) abusive sexual behaviour by their lieutenants - most frequently child sexual abuse. Sound familiar?

On the home front, the thing that concerns me most - as both a very-recently-ex-EV international organizer and as a human being - is the sexual antics of the instructors.

The sexual frustration of the instructors is not something (thank God) I've experienced firsthand - but it is a kind of epidemic. Numerous premie women I know are molested, propositioned, pursued and worse by instructors, in many countries.

Because these guys - many of whom I've known since the early 1970s - have never grown within a normal relationship, their approach to women now is highly dysfunctional and dishonest. I can't bring myself to name individuals - doing so would tarnish some of EV's brightest lights, of longest-standing. And they're mostly still my friends.

We all got each other into the M cult - and now we're forming networks and giving support as, one by one, each individual is plucked out of it. So even the sexually abusive instructors - and that's the majority of those I know - are people I'd like to help out the door, rather than simply attack and discredit them.

Having said that, this policy will change and names will be named, and incidents described in all their shameful, gory detail, if these practices continue. (And believe me, I know so many of the heartbroken women involved that I will definitely find out.)

Too many women have been damaged by these serial womanisers/gropers/molesters (who lie to their current woman about their affairs with women in other 'ports') to allow this 'epidemic' to continue. This is not abuse a la Jagdeo - but it is playing with people's feelings in a callous, chronic way.

I hope it's really clear that I'm going to blow the whistle on these people if this doesn't change. I don't want to hurt anyone - but at the same time unless these guys start to grow a bit, they'll continue hurting innocent, vulnerable girls all over the planet. And there's none so vulnerable as a woman who believes in the myth of 'Maharaji's instructors'.

I should make it equally clear that I'm not talking about equal, consensual, honest relationships - e.g. Sampuranand and Bai Ji. And I'm not talking about some occasional on-the-road flings - we've all had those. I'm talking about using women as sexual playthings, and serial dishonesty, Maharaji-style.

People around Maharaji (PAMs) get into power trips and bullying - the well-known 'mini-Maharaji' syndrome. Many PAMs drink a lot (or are alcoholics), just like the Master: throwing up on the way back to your tent after a night drinking with M around the campfire is not exactly unknown.

Similarly, just like Maharaji, some instructors have misused their status for sexual gain.

At the very least these instructors need to get counselling on how to form normal relationships. Ideally this counselling will take place post-K - because the inherently dysfunctional master-student relationship is the fertile soil from which dysfunctional approaches to women grow.

A post-Knowledge setting for this kind of change is important, not only because Knowledge tends to replace/reduce normal growth, but because EV will never act against this sort of behaviour. The system thus encourages it.

When reports are made (which is rare), EV takes no action. The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident: otherwise EV's record is of no response, no action, no attempt to assist the women involved, and no attempt to change the climate which gives rise to the incidents.

(In recent years policies have been written on sexual harassment. Believe me, they don't apply to M or the instructors.)

M's attitudes to women don't help much either. He once told a group of us at Amaroo that he wanted to gather all the girls with 'good tits' at one end of the property, and all the girls with 'bad tits' at the other end. In his public satsangs he frequently uses the example of when 'you come home from a hard day's work and your wife doesn't have dinner on the table in time' and the like. I'm not wild about PC myself, but this sort of thinking surely belongs in the 1950s.

I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter.

For example if Marolyn enquires as to whether Monica is present in Maharaji's campground with him - and she is indeed there - these staff have been instructed to tell Marolyn that she is not. If Maharaji and Monica are staying in a hotel together, Marolyn is to be given the same line. I was surprised by this at first, as Marolyn has obviously known about Monica for some years. I can only presume that the depth and extent of Maharaji's relationship with Monica is what is being kept secret from his wife, via these institutionalised deceptions.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Maharaji - but it makes the inner sanctum staff look even worse, IMO. It's a stark illustration of how one's values can deteriorate when one is focussed on the 'greater good' of keeping the Living Master.

Such training also furthers the climate of deceit about this relationship. Even until the mid-1990s, Monica was telling me, when she entered an area where M was, that she was joining him to 'show him the latest videos' from Visions. As if everyone didn't know.

The deceit - sorry, 'confidentiality' - is pervasive: the Monica thing is just the most visible example.

The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave.

For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them.

****************************************xxxxxx

'Today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep
within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to
even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside of the group. When
the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as
though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a substantial
image-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever
betray the group.' - Steven Hassan

By the late 1990s, EPO was starting to crack through the dynamic described by Hassan - showing just how powerful the Internet is. Premies were reading posts and journeys from people they'd once known and trusted - people who had left Maharaji, and left knowledge, but - unaccountably - had not turned into rotten vegetables. People started to leave. One of these was the woman assigned by the PR team to monitor the Forum, amusingly enough.

To counter the rising problem of EPO, M had spent a log time trashing the Web - calling it, for example, 'the world wide parking lot'. This didn't work: premies got wired as much and as enthusiastically as everyone else.

So the decision was made by Maharaji in July '98 to inaugurate an EV website. Mark Winter in the UK was given the task. The publicly stated reason for Enjoying Life was to propagate K and give premies a chance to express gratitude. Maharaji confided to the group responsible for it that the site's real purpose was to counter the anti-M sites - EPO basically.

Latitude was given to Mark W in creating the site - i.e. premies were allowed/encouraged to diverge from the party-line devotional blather and mention problems they might have had getting their minds around Knowledge, and even a few jokes passed by the censors. That was to give the Enjoying Life site a bit of the 'realism' or rawness that traditional EV propaganda has usually lacked - and which EPO has in abundance.

The Enjoying Life site was basically established as EPO's online competitor. In October 98, M told me he was extremely pleased with the result: I saw his Net-phobia evaporate overnight.

********************************************

'The most curious part of the thing was, that the trees and the other things round them never changed their places at all: however fast they went, they never seemed to pass anything. 'I wonder if all the things move along with us?' thought poor puzzled Alice. And the Queen seemed to guess her thoughts, for she cried, 'Faster! Don't try to talk!''

Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

EV has nearly come to a halt at the present. Less people have received Knowledge in the West in the past year than in any year since 1971 - a 30-year low.

Currently there is a participation drought throughout the West. People are pulling back, and getting on with their real lives. EV is being run by some of the old stalwarts, but the future of both the organisation's structure and the personnel who run it is uncertain. For once this is not because of mass burn-outs or M's habit of firing personnel left, right and center - it's because of a withdrawal of groundtroops.

In Australia, the jewel in M's crown, Amaroo is apparently laying off staff, and activty is very low due to lack of funds. It's not clear who's going to be running the country's organisation overall. This follows a recent move by Derek Harper (instructor), Lee Marges and Catherine Gavigan (organisers) to oust Kay McKinnon (Pacific contact). It was generally believed that her $50,000+ annual salary could be better spent elsewhere.

Kay McKinnon has survived for now, but that status is far from certain for even the middle-term. (A lot of people have been bucking for her to be booted for years.) Thus no-one down under really knows how to begin planning for the organisation's future.

Ironically, all this happens against a backdrop of Maharaji's statement to the rich guys at the Arizona conference last month that he 'wants the politics to stop'.

The politics in EV can never stop, as it's created by imprisoning people's democratic instincts within a top-down theocratic heirarchy: Maharaji, his family, PAMs, instructors, organisers, groundtroops and church ladies. Thus there will always be tension between instinct, conscience and common sense on the one side, and the uncomfortable, ultimately inhuman imperatives of the master-student relationship on the other.

In kicking against this spirit-shrivelling dynamic in themselves, EV people also kick against each other - for they generally project the problem outward. Thus other organisers - but not me - are 'petty', 'insensitive', 'manipulative' and 'power-hungry'.

In a normal organisation this could be ironed out with psychological growth. In one where the expansive behind of the Living Master of The Time sits like a lava plug on the volcano of our emotion, self-expression and individuality, it wasn't possible. So EV has seen nearly three decades of revolutions, changes in style and terminology, trainings, team-building programs, workshops, conferences, mutinies and purges - and everything stays the same.

'Direction is essential for the continuing existence of the crowd. Its
constant fear of disintegration means that it will accept any goal. A crowd
exists so long as it has an unattained goal.' - Elias Canetti

The politics M is trying to amputate has been endemic to EV for 30 years. It's getting more petty and vicious - not less - as the caliber of those remaining dwindles, and EV's pool of available managerial talent shrinks.

The secrecy is getting tighter too. Throughout the West people are getting really sick of the endless emphasis on 'confidentiality' - i.e. secrecy. In some places people have to sign confidentiality agreements before they can even do service. Managers and local contacts are starting to feel they're not able to share much with the groundtroops and church ladies any more, and they feel guilty when they do. (When you sin against the government, a corporation or even your family it's one thing: but sinning against The Living Master an the Whole Purpose of Existence is another.)

I wonder how long the loyal Valerio will want to keep cleaning up the psychological messes created by the unreal relationships we premies have with M. Having been to several of V's trainings, I can vouch that he's a great trainer. But all the trainings, and the 'emergencies' Valerio is responsible for dealing with, will not do more than deal with symptoms - keep the lid on short-term. The basic dynamic needs to change. People need to create proper lives for themselves in the real world, and more importantly create proper inner lives for themselves.

It's pretty obvious that most people who leave K start 'moving' in their relationships, careers, etc, better than before, when they were in the golden cage. But maybe the biggest thing is realising that the INNER life is better without Knowledge, and without Maharaji. Cleaner, happier, more even, more concrete.

I've been on the phone in recent weeks to old friends who have done this. Sadly, I cut them off when they did - but now contact has been reestablished it's great. These guys have ended up happy. Those who've stayed have just got more and more stunted. I felt it in myself till I got out.

Look around. EV is a psychic graveyard. And it's not because people have not done enough trainings.

****************************************xxxxx

'The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for
the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to
make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when
Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a
heretical thought (that is, a thought diverging from the principles of
Ingsoc) should be literally unthinkable.' - George Orwell, 1984

One of the things I have found most surprising since leaving is that so few people followed orders to hand in the DLM magazines in the late 1970s. Ex-premies everywhere still have piles of them. The attempt to re-program us away from our early history - when Maharaji was God, his brothers divine incarnations, and we an elect group more or less guaranteed salvation - was thus a failure.

Probably one of the worst aspects of the attempt to re-write history is the claim by Maharaji and EV that the Indian concepts of the 1970s were promulgated by the mahatmas, and that M had no role in this. In reality, one thing that M aways had direct control over - even as a teenager - was the activities of the mahatmas and instructors.

And of course this is relevant not just to the 'Indian concepts' debate. It's highly relevant to the Jagdeo affair.

Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago.

Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s.

I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel.

Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years.

Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her.

Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up.

The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up.

The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom.

Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.)

EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course.

The rules of the recent trainings are:

10 second rule
conscious
respect
confidentiality
honesty
participate
unanimous
no brain farts
no dark thoughts

But the rule underlying all of these - at least the trainings I went to - was RESPONSIBILITY. People who didn't take responsibility for their actions were absolutely stomped on by M. I saw hard-boiled businessmen stumbling around in the Delhi dust in shock, and non-smokers take up smoking, after some of his temper explosions around the question of responsibilty. People were terrified: it is no exaggeration to say that some shook from head to foot. Many probably thought the sky was about to fall in.

How does that all square with sitting on his hands since the late 1970s, when he was first informed of Jagdeo's criminal activities? Maybe Perfect Masters are somehow exempt from preventing child sexual abuse, because they have their eye on some larger karmic scene which is invisible to the rest of us? Believe that and you may as well believe in the tooth fairy.

On a recent Delhi trip, I chatted with Jagdeo in the IOC, in the centre of the ashram - where we were both staying. He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - maybe still does. He also still has access to children - was indeed spotted fondly patting one in the IOC in the last year or two - though I have no evidence that he is sexually abusing same, and hopefully this is unlikely after all the bad publicity.

The Jagdeo affair is a towering example of the corruption that's set into the heart of what I believe to have, once, been a genuine attempt to help the world. That M is so central to Jagdeo's crimes continuing is, alone, reason enough for me to leave. There isn't a rationalization in the world that excuses complicity in raping children. That my friends continue to defend M in this respect seriously stretches my respect for them.

****************************************xxxx

'The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master's feet and guards
against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can
at least bask in the sun of a semi-divine being. He can enjoy the archaism
and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for
all responsibility is laid at the Master's door.' - C.G. Jung

'Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.' - Maharaji

The first seed of doubt was sown in my mind in 1997. In LA toward the end of that year, Maharaji was depressed for two or three months - right through till Christmas. I was quite shocked by this.

Things had upset M at the end of the 1997 Amaroo event - like a cow getting into his private campground and shitting in front of his doorway. Everybody certainly heard about that: 'I almost stood in it!'

(Not a cow shits without...)

Also he was stopped by some security person on a road for not having a pass. Finally, the schizophrenic son of two premies dropped some acid, then wandered into his campground for a chat at the doorstep to the divine pent. M's radio calls to the security personnel were misunderstood, and people raced all over the property - except to where the problem was. His final radio call was pretty testy.

But the thing that made him the most pissed was an article that appeared in an Aussie newspaper. I think it said that he was a rich guru who did rather well financially out of his devotees, or words to that effect. Not something you could actually argue with. He was really angry at the PR team for not somehow stopping that article from appearing.

And I remember thinking - before I could censor myself in the time-honored premie way: 'Why doesn't he alter his own behavior if he wants to stop articles like that from appearing?' The article just described the luxury homes, the jet, etc, as far as I can recall. All of these things are M's lifestyle choices - not things invented by a malicious journalist.

Naturally the PR team accepted the spears in the chest, and various post-mortems were done to ensure they performed better next time.

NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts.

On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes.

****************************************xxxxx

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru... Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God... So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. You will find that Guru is the Supremest of all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high
thing, such a high power, has come. I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' - Maharaji

'Who says I am not under the special protection of God?' - Adolph Hitler

It's fairly well-known that the people around Maharaji tend to be heavy-drinking and competitive, and to engage in internicine warfare. (They even joke about it themselves.) They're also frequently ill physically. Indeed most of the half-dozen people closest to M are physical wrecks. I think a lot of this comes from the chronic fear in which PAMs live - fear of displeasing the superior power in person.

The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no longer acknowledge him as their master. The 'loyal' exceptions - e.g. Marolyn, Monica, Sampur - generally have an economic or power benefits to keep them in the fold longer-term.

****************************************xxxxx

'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've
ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you
never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to
be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education,
your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' - Jeanne Mills, former member of the People's Temple.

At the recent event down at Amaroo, there were serious financial losses from a malfunctioning credit card system - people's purchases didn't register. In the months before the event there was a premie revolt over the huge registration fees. Not long before the event only a few hundred had registered. Panic set in, and Padarthanand was sent on the road to explain how the fee wasn't mandatory after all(!) Thereafter, a large number of people were admitted for free.

The upshot is that the Amaroo finances are not in good shape. Some of the premies whose loans and mortgages support its existence are getting a bit sweaty-palmed.

The official story on the 2001 event is that it was all sweetness and light. But the usual brawls went on. Most of the tent-erecting team mutinied before the event, because of a 'fascist' manager. (It could have been 1974.) The manual workers, without whom the event wouldn't have happened, were kicked off the site at event time, as usual, which caused lots of bad feeling. Probably they'll all swallow it, and come back next year for more. Then complain again when the predictable happens.

Serious intra-managerial disputes lingered on from the Sept 2000 fundraising event, where several relationships melted down amid that event's howling dust-storms, especially in the front-of-house area - which has always been a major source of potential revenue, thus the importance of cohesion there.

Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends.

Valerio didn't get the respect during the day (the training) that he gets from poorer, community premies: these guys are rich, and aren't used to being patronized and belittled. He got put in his place a couple of times - though the training as a whole was fun and educational.

Now, a year later, the defections of higher-level managers - some of them from K and M altogether - have left thinned-out upper EV echelons, and people are doing senior jobs who would not have been considered five years ago. There have been worried discussions about the quality of the folks who are now in quite senior managerial positions.

********************************************x

'A striking expression, with the aid of a small amount of truth, can
surprise us into accepting a falsehood.' - Vauvenargues

I'd guess that the disgraceful CAC site was M-approved, simply because every major venture of premies without exception is M-approved.

(Not a penny drops...)

A PR friend told me that the American premie writer Scott Ritter (he's currently hanging out down under I think) was deputized by the international team, earlier this year, to help come up with an online antidote to EPO that used 'radical new thinking'.

Scott, I gather, was stymied by this. How could you shoot down so many well-attested facts? I woud surmise that CAC was born out of this frustration.

Personally I think Scott is too nice to have created CAC, but the fact that he was put on the case this year suggests that an offical concern about EPO had reached sufficient heights for radical action to be taken - by someone. And taken it was.

One reason CAC was pulled, I would guess, was that it was causing so much disgust even among the senior EV managers. Giving away exes' family's addresses, and tarring exes as pedophiles, is about as low as it gets: even the brainwashed have standards.

The big-eating Frenchman would have kept this operation under the tightest of wraps, were it an officially sanctioned one. Even most of the PR team probably wouldn't have been told it was sanctioned by M - let alone anyone else.

All the above re CAC is speculation - though not unreasonable speculation. It certainly fits with EV's pro-active pattern on the Internet since EPO began, of countering it. First came the large technical task of 'influencing' search engines so that search words like 'Maharaji' and 'Elan Vital' brought up the official sites first and the anti ones last. That job was done by an Australian techie in the late 1990s, and took him many months. Then Enjoying Life. Then Life's Great - which reversed the original policy of censoring premies. CAC kind of fits with a developing pattern.

****************************************xxxxx

'A morality based solely upon the tenuous thread of religious mythology
is only effective for a comparatively primitive mind, through which God is
invested with magical parental powers of punishment and reward. As people in
general become emotionally healthier, more able to individuate from their
parents, the gods become divested of their power to control.' - Robert Godwin

As we grow away from this old, unhealthy parental relationship, I hope we exes can also get away from an adversarial relationship with premies. Their sins were till recently ours, and their blindness was ours too.

A master-student dynamic distorts everything below it, but you don't see that when you're in it. An exhausted housemother falls asleep in the meditation room, and someone yells at her. A rich boy from Hardwar who got very lucky with the Western zeitgeist wants another Maserati, so premies forego things they and their children need to buy it for him. Someone commits suicide in the ashram, and the premie doctor fakes the death certificate.

Not things people would normally do - but a cult provokes deep, strange loyalties, and 'abnormal' becomes normal. That's what a cult is, pretty much. We lived within this strange paradigm too. And accepted it, and propagated it to others.

I think our task is to support each other in getting out, just as we supported each other on the way in, and for the duration. I strongly feel that we're all in it together: some have manned the lifeboats, and some have even rowed well clear of the sinking ship. But others are still in the ballroom listening to the band; and others still are fast asleep in their staterooms. But everybody is leaving, one way or another.

It's a co-operative venture. We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year - pledging undying love to the womanizing, alcoholic Californian multi-millionaire whom we'd persuaded ourselves was the most important person on Earth - in blissful ignorance of the impending revival of the self we'd been taught to despise.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:47 (EDT)
From: PC
Email: pvcramer@yahoo.com
To: Pam
Subject: It is you Jim?
Message:

So funny reading this 'coming out' of this alleged PAM.

It is so transparent that it is a joke. More interesting is the gullibility of the people in this forum.

Don't you see... The writer, takes the same regurgitated hearsay that has been trashed over and over in this forum, adds a bit of salt and pepper, some spice with second-hand quotes, a few rumors and an more hearsay and then everybody falls over with stupid admiration....

Is just funny...

I'll tell you how it is. Maybe Jim, maybe another frequenter of this forum, is pissed-off that so many OT threads about Bin Laden, America's evildoing and other politics are being discussed here, instead of the anti-cult business. So these people come together and put this well cratfed piece of missinformation out, counting on the idiocy and gullibility of the people in this forum to just buy it! (Jim it is you? Man, you are good... How long it took you to fabricate this shit, Uh? not much, righ? You knew they will bite...)

Do you want me to believe that a sane person, that knew of so much corruption and scandal first-hand, put up with it for years...? Why? Com'on! Give me a break, would you? Either this guy is a total idiot, or a total fabrication. I would go for the latter.

The most amazing part is the one that this guy tries to make this forum more sensible, less obscene so that is more apealling. Good try... It ain't going to happen.

And wat about, the 'new' sex scandal about the instructors? What a piece of BS. There are hardly a handful of instructors left, but probably you don't know this because your are not who you say you are.

And the one 'I met Jagdeo'. Another good one! You give yourself up in your total lack of current information, and in the too polished way this piece was constructed.

This person is so ficticious that it hurts!

Peter Cramer

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:09:09 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: PC
Subject: Re: It is you Jim?
Message:

I had the same idea as you, the person may be fictitious, but the
facts are real.....newly assembled to clear off obl...whatever

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:56:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PC
Subject: Peter, your head is up your arse.
Message:

It just couldn't be true could it? All these lies about the Perfect Master, spread by evil, hate-filled Ex-premies with grudges and axes to grind.

Sure, the Moonies, the Harry Krishaz, TM, they're all cults with false teachers.

But Captain Rawat, he can do no wrong can he Pete? Christ, even if he smacked you over the head with a baseball bat it would be 'His Grace' wouldn't it Peter?

He is Perfect. It's all his divine game right?

Who would have thought it. You started out a sincere seeker of Truth, trying to give your life to the Creator, and you ended up covering up for Captain Rawats paedophile pal.

Funny how things turn out isn't it?

Get back under you blanket and poke yourself in the eyes for half an hour, maybe when you come out all the nasty stuff will have disappeared.

Hang on in there Pete. Keep the faith. It's all part of his divine plan. All will be revealed on Judgement Day.

Anth, let's sing a lament.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:34 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: PC
Subject: Fictitious people
Message:

The only people using fictitious identities are premies. You know who you are. And so do we.

KIA

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 23:53:12 (EDT)
From: PC
Email: pvcramer@yahoo.com
To: Pam
Subject: It is you Jim?
Message:

So funny reading this 'coming out' of this alleged PAM.

It is so transparent that it is a joke. More interesting is the gullibility of the people in this forum.

Don't you see... The writer, takes the same regurgitated hearsay that has been trashed over and over in this forum, adds a bit of salt and pepper, some spice with second-hand quotes, a few rumors and an more hearsay and then everybody falls over with stupid admiration....

Is just funny...

I'll tell you how it is. Maybe Jim, maybe another frequenter of this forum, is pissed-off that so many OT threads about Bin Laden, America's evildoing and other politics are being discussed here, instead of the anti-cult business. So these people come together and put this well cratfed piece of missinformation out, counting on the idiocy and gullibility of the people in this forum to just buy it! (Jim it is you? Man, you are good... How long it took you to fabricate this shit, Uh? not much, righ? You knew they will bite...)

Do you want me to believe that a sane person, that knew of so much corruption and scandal first-hand, put up with it for years...? Why? Com'on! Give me a break, would you? Either this guy is a total idiot, or a total fabrication. I would go for the latter.

The most amazing part is the one that this guy tries to make this forum more sensible, less obscene so that is more apealling. Good try... It ain't going to happen.

And wat about, the 'new' sex scandal about the instructors? What a piece of BS. There are hardly a handful of instructors left, but probably you don't know this because your are not who you say you are.

And the one 'I met Jagdeo'. Another good one! You give yourself up in your total lack of current information, and in the too polished way this piece was constructed.

This person is so ficticious that it hurts!

Peter Cramer

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:09:40 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PC
Subject: why is that funny to you????????????
Message:

I am not sure about this person , who could say, but even *If* this PAM is a fake why is that funny? do you mean to say that it is ironic or sad/funny?
ok that in itself but WHY is it funny that others would be taken in?

I saw this place go gaga over the new and improved rob and no one protested. Zelda mentions this but is so vague I can't imagine anyone understanding her post. Sorry Zelda

So, is it that anonymity is not trustworthy even if it is a right and a need for some?

You could be a little bit kind. I started this post angry. Now I don't know but I can tell you I don't think it is Jim!! and I don't think it is funny to laugh at people's trust. Especially after they left a freaking cult. So what of the cult members hey?
What about their trust?

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:47:00 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: why is that funny to you?
Message:

hey selene
now just because my post misses pronouns,has no puncuation, sentence structure, or clear idea does not mean it is vague.
I have read it over and it is perfectly understandable to a twisted mind like mine.
:::::-\
Z ZZZ

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:54:47 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Selene- btdt/vicki quote from below
Message:

she says it well I think in 'applause applause ' below

''About people who post here under the guise of ex premies that cause the flaming you spoke of, it occurred to me yesterday that they are probably plants by M to derail topics and redirect topics, that hit too close for comfort to M., and get ex's at each other's throats to keep off topic. Peole who are not the obvious Catweasles but people who those here earnestly believe to be ex's.'

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:20:12 (EDT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Re: 'my memoirs'
Message:

Thank you - this was an excellent time for me to drop in for a few minutes and see this.
Elaine

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:58:54 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Hi Elaine! (ot)
Message:

It's an incredible post, isn't it ... funny, I was thinking of you today. Hope you're doing well, and that you've found some reliable tradespeople! I just found out a couple of weeks ago that I have to find $4000 for a new roof(!) - impossible until next year, and another lean winter ahead ... but at least my deep-freezer is stuffed full, and I'm rapidly filling the one in my fridge, even though I've been giving stuff away.

Love and hugs,

Anna

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:33 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Anonymity and Comfort Zones...
Message:

I hope that eventually you will feel comfortable revealing your identity.

I say this because when I was still looking at the forum and EPO while I was still a premie, I would read posts by anonymous ex-instructors, and secret 'moles' in the Malibu residence, etc. It was very easy to dismiss ALL such anonymous postings as gossip or even lies.

Michael Dettmers postings affected me greatly, because he revealed who he was. If he had made his postings anyonmously, they would not have affected me at all. So I hope that revealing your identity eventually is something you will consider. I feel what you wrote has a strong ring of truth to it, but until you choose to reveal yourself, it will be regarded as anonymous gossip by many, especially fence-sitting premies.

As for your remark: ''NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts.

On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes.''

I used to think that too. Many premies do, I'm sure. They are used to a more syncronized, conflict-free environment. They aren't used to having their comments strongly scrutinized and critisized, or their ideas vehemently challenged. They don't like the forum because of that. It's so un-peaceful.

Well, I can only say, ''Welcome to the real world.'' In the Real World, not everybody agrees, nor are they always pleasant or syncronized. To make the forum more like you think it should be, would require a sort of control most people here would not feel comfortable with. I myself would rather live with the rough edges than have to conform to a sort of PC correctness about what ex-premies should have to be like. The forum is not really about ''belonging'', but is more about scrutinizing and analysing, re-constructing and understanding.

Posting here, you have to develop a thicker skin, and sometimes just agree to disagree with people. I feel that is all for the best, and it has actually helped me to clarify my own thoughts and feelings, without having to always have them validated by anyone else.

It's OK if people don't agree with me, and being able to accept that has made me a stronger person. And having my beliefs challenged has also helped me, to see more clearly, deepen my understanding, or simply change my mind in lieu of more information. Growing and changing isn't always comfortable in the short term, but is much better in the long term than the alternative; stagnating in a belief system that requires you not to not consider new information, so you will never doubt.

If increasing the ''comfort zone'' here for recent exes means not arguing so much, by making it more ''agreeable'' by tolerating and not questioning the kind of sloppy thinking that got so many of us in the cult in the first place, I would have to question the value of that. Recent exes have to learn to be comfortable stepping outside of their Premie Comfort Zone, to be able to function happily in a world where not everyone is in agreement.

Even after you leave M, you will find many of your subconcious beliefs and assumtions being challenged for a long time afterwards. It's all to the good though, and helps you ultimately.

Best regards,

Chuck

Who knows that You Too Can be a Sat Gooroo

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:00:03 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Good post, Chuck [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:54:57 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: ELOQUENT, my dear, simply eloquent!!
Message:

Dear Chuck,

Thanks for that Chuck. Especially with my post below, expressing distaste at the pressure sometimes exerted on those who would remain anonymous, you have eloquently stated the corollary. The exPAM posts with the most credibility Detters, Donner, Jim Sander, Jean-Michel, Cynthia Gracie and others who were instructors, PAMs and Decca slaves come to mind. 'All the President's Men,' as Mark Appelman once said. I knew some of those people, or knew who they were through the DLM/EV hierarchy enough to know they were credible.

I'm waiting for some more female PAMs. Where are you, ladies????

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:06:32 (EDT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: Pam: A few questions
Message:

Pam, I have had knowledge for 28 years and have also been 'close', though not as close as you nor for so long. I am marginally involved and still wish to remain anonymous. I wonder if you could clarify a couple of things:
1. Re the 'responsibility' issue at the training in India: What was it that M. did or said that made people terrified?
2. I have followed the Jagdeo story closely...but have never heard
anyone suggest that he actually raped children. I understood from what I read that he 'fondled' etc. Is there evidence that he actually raped children? If so, did M. and instructors know this?
3. Do you know what caused M's 2-3 month depression in 1997? Why did it surprise you?
4. You say the 'The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no onger acknowledge him as their master.' I have received communications within the last year from PAM's who still capitalize 'He' and 'Him' when they refer to M. (as in, 'such is His infinite kindness.' If, as you say, most don't acknowledge him as their master, what do they acknowledge him as, i.e., what is the relationship? Friend?
5. Thank you for acknowledging that your statements about EV and M being behind CAC are just speculation. It was so gross that I had a hard time believing that he/they would stoop so low.
6. Re 2000 Amaroo: What is the 'front-of-house' area that has always been a major source of potential revenue? Do you mean front seats -- buffer zone area, etc.? If so, glad to hear there was a melt-down. It's a system that stinks rotten.

7. Can you say who the PR person was that exited after being assigned to monitor EPO?

Thanks for any clarification you can give, and for, as someone else said, a 'brilliant essay.'

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:49 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Been There - Read Abi's post below!
Message:

Been There, you wrote to my amazement:-

2. I have followed the Jagdeo story closely...but have never heard
anyone suggest that he actually raped children. I understood from what I read that he 'fondled' etc. Is there evidence that he actually raped children? If so, did M. and instructors know this?

Read Abi's fragmentation post below.

John.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: To JHB: I'm speechless
Message:

JHB: I hadn't read Abi's Fragmentation post. Thank you for referring me to it. I'm speechless. I knew Jagdeo. I always thought he was weird...but I had had not idea of the extent of his abuse. He should be hauled into court. He should have to face his victims.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Pam
Subject: Okay, PAM, I apologize
Message:

Last night when I read your essay, my first impression was that you were trading on your PAM status to make a big impression but were doing so unfairly by chosing anonymity. I also did not appreciate being lectured about how to behave on this forum.

But I did not for one minute doubt the truth of your message. The sincerity and understated factualness of your writing was obvious. And I had seen enough of the behavior you describe as happening among the higher-ups to agree with you on that.

I was also very disappointed that you chose to remain anonymous because I feared that the cultweasels who post here would simply dismiss you and they have as you can see from the inane posts by them in this thread.

My annoyance also stemmed from personal reasons as I suspected that I knew you and had been in email contact with you for a while. Your anonymity felt like a slap in my face. (At the very least, I thought to myself when I first read your essay, you could have warned me ahead of time so that I could vouch for you.) of course I am speculating and you may not be the person I thought you were.

Now I wish to apologize. The reasons for your anonymity really are none of my business. Your essay is brilliantly written (another reason for my suspicions as to your identity) and obviously took quite a lot of effort. Thank you and welcome and please forgive me for being so ungracious.

Patrick Conlon

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:14:38 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pam
Subject: One HUGE point of disagreement
Message:

Dear Pam,

I slept on this one, and I have one huge point of disagreement with you. I will preface this whole thing by saying that I am not trying to blame you, or preach to you, or make you feel bad, but you put several statements out there in your long and well-written post, such as the one below, that I respectfully disagree with:

We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year . . '

I respectfully disagree. There are the rank-and-file premies, and church ladies who have no idea what is really going on. They are deluded but innocent. But I cannot agree that, there but for fortune, I would be in the shoes of those who have 'blood on their hands,' such as Valerio Pascotto, in his shameful treatment of Abi and gosh knows how many other of the Church of Rawat's victims, and in the shoes of my former ashram buddy, Marsha, and Glenn, and other premies that are a part of this massive coverup that has gone on for years. And those who have taken part in other coverups that I don't know about.

Some people are just not corruptible to that degree. But I am sure there are many premies that are part of the conspiracy of silence, that are finding it in their hearts and minds to speak up now, and perhaps wake up and walk away, that wou