Joe -:- Response to Erika Andersen Re Ashram -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:49:10 (EDT)

__ Moley -:- Erika's attitude is truly disgusting -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:33:43 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- To Moley... -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:51:30 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- JHB - find this a permanent home, please.. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:05:34 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Will do [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:06:18 (EDT)

__ such -:- Good 'un,Joe! [lobotomy gave Erika amnesia] [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:20:45 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- Powerful post, Joe -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:23:58 (EDT)

__ Tonette -:- Question about Erika. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:49:49 (EDT)

__ Disculta -:- The CLASSIC mind-f––k -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:54:17 (EDT)

__ PatD -:- Great post Joe -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:27:38 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- 'told to fuck off & die'LOL [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:51:52 (EDT)

__ Susan -:- excellent Joe (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:24:00 (EDT)

__ Francesca :( -:- ***BEST, BEST, BEST of FORUM*** -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:08:31 (EDT)

__ __ Vicki -:- M will never go on record -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:47:05 (EDT)

__ Bjørn E -:- Differnet experiences in ashrams -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:36:44 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- IGNORE the above post from ''B''^^^^ [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:04:09 (EDT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Perhaps you're a sadist, Bjørn -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:43:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Sir Dave -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:58:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Kra, Kra, yourself! -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:43:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Funny Jerry -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:24:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Kra, Kra, kra kra -- 96 tears! [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:18:52 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- You ... you...you are a complete imbecile! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:44:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Jim, I was hoping -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:59:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Dermot no need to comment Jim -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:51:11 (EDT)

__ __ Not so lucky -:- You lucky, lucky, bastard -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:46:07 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- 'Guru' Maharaj Ji -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:54:38 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- That says it all -- well done indeed [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:53:28 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Excellent Post Joe. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:08:11 (EDT)

__ __ Jim S. -:- Excellent,plus a question for M... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:46:53 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Excellent, EXCELLENT post Joe -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:09:07 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- ***BEST OF FORUM***Once Again, Joe... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:15:15 (EDT)

Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:49:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to Erika Andersen Re Ashram
Message:

Some of you may have read Erika Andersen's disgusting spin on the Ashrams, which is on her website and entitled 'You Lived In A What?' and is dated August 8, 2001.

After I read it, the following just kind of spilled out of me. I have submitted it to her website, but given the censorship on the cult sites, I know it will never appear there. Anyhow, here it is:

Maharaji’s Ashrams

I am one of probably thousands of people who lived in one or more of Maharaji’s ashrams. Just to set the record straight, Maharaji’s ashrams were monastic institutions that Maharaji, himself, promoted as his gift to his followers as a means to dedicate our lives to him. The basic structure of the ashram was poverty, celibacy and obedience. We also lived by a schedule, starting with ARTI, along with prostration before a picture of Maharaji in the morning, and again in the evening, followed by meditation. We also had satsang every night, and “service” all day. All the money ashram residents earned was turned over to Maharaji’s organization and much of it went to Maharaji personally. There was also a set of “ashram rules” which Maharaji claims to have personally authored. All of Maharaji’s Initiators (Instructors) and Elan Vital Administrators were selected from among the ashram residents, as were Maharaji’s servants and personal staff.

As an ashram premie and devotee, you were available to be transferred to any place you were needed to do anything deemed necessary. You owned nothing; you did what you were told, and relationships, career, and any worldly interests, were verboten, unless directly related to your “service.” Your life belonged to Maharaji, who portrayed himself as the living incarnation of God, the living Perfect Master, and who exhorted us to surrender our lives to him. Many of us believed him and tried to do that, by means of his ashram. Physically, we lived in large, overcrowded, rented houses with no furniture; we slept on foam mats on the floor, ate vegetarian food, and mostly had underwear with holes in it.

Many people, including me, spent their 20s living in Maharaji’s ashram. I lived in the ashrams from 1974 to 1983. During that time, I mostly worked jobs out in “the world” and turned over every cent I earned. Part of the time I did “service” in Elan Vital, as either a bureaucrat at Elan Vital International Headquarters, as part of the army of unpaid workers on Maharaji’s Boeing 707 plane that we were revamping with gold toilets and other luxuries Maharaji wanted, or as a “Community Coordinator” in three different cities. In fact, I lived in ashrams in seven different cities in the USA, not by my choice, but because I was sent to each one. In 1981, I was sent from the Miami ashram to the ashram in San Francisco, a city I love and where I have lived ever since (with a few years in nearby Marin County). In 1983, I left both Maharaji’s ashram and his cult.

As can be said about any living situation, no matter how repressive or bizarre, I had some good times in the ashrams, and some terrible times. I met some wonderful people in the ashrams, most of whom sincerely believed Maharaji and wanted to dedicate their lives to him. Living with people who are sincerely seeking truth, no matter how misguided that search might be, can be a very nice experience.

For the most part, however, I hated living in the ashrams partly because sex and romantic relationships were forbidden, partly because of the lack of having any of my own money, partly also because of the almost total lack of privacy, and partly because the ashram system allowed some rather sadistic and unsavory people to inflict their psychological abuse on people who were very vulnerable to them. That has been talked about quite a bit on the Internet by former ashram premies.

Also, I am a person who has always been very interested in the world. I love to read, I love theater and movies; I love politics and current events; I love the wild outdoors and I love my family, an Irish Catholic/WASP combination of wonderful, loving people. Involvement with all of those things was either forbidden or frowned upon in Maharaji’s ashram. Indeed, all “worldly” pursuits and relationships were considered distractions from the true purpose of one’s life, which Maharaji said repeatedly was to devote one’s life 100% to Maharaji. In return, Maharaji promised, through his grace, to take care of us as if we were his children. He repeatedly said that it was HE who knew what was best for us, and not the ashram premies and their “confused minds.” Little did I know at the time that not only did he have no intention or capability of caring for us, he likely did not even know that most of us were even alive, and he couldn’t have cared less.

Of course, in the ashram there was no career development, no education, no forming romantic relationships and no sex allowed, and these are normally the very things one is engaging in in one’s 20s. For me and many others, because we entered the ashram to devote ourselves totally to Maharaji, we missed all that. When the supposed “ashram experiment” (which is the current revisionist spin that the Maharaji cult and its current PR mavens call it these days) came to an end, we were then in our 30s, with little or no advanced education, no career, no relationship, strained relations with family, and an extremely truncated set of life experiences and skills with which to start life over, years behind everyone else in our age group. I am sure that if we had known it was all just some temporary “grand experiment” as Erika Anderson dismissively calls it, we would have thought differently about entering the ashram in the first place.

The damage to my relationship to my family was also severe. On one occasion, I was forbidden in the ashram from attending the funeral of my grandfather. On another occasion, I was forbidden from attending my little sister’s wedding. In addition, I missed most of the holidays, birthdays, and special occasions my family held without me. They also felt very rejected, and for good reason. Maharaji told us on many the occasion that we really HAD no relationship with our family. He told us the ashram, and Maharaji, were our REAL family, and that “the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for Christmas” (actual Maharaji quote).

All of those things, including the terrible waste of time, talent, and energy, that occurred in Maharaji’s ashrams are things you can’t ever get back. So, to be told that the ashram was a “failed experiment” that just sort of happened because of some kind of cultural misunderstanding, and that Maharaji really can’t be held responsible for any of it, makes my eyes glaze over. And as has been typical of Erika Andersen’s rationalizations and revisionism, she also blames the ashram premies for getting it wrong, or coming into the ashrams for the wrong reasons, and that they were the real problem, not Maharaji. This is particularly unfair, cruel and dismissive, and just plain false. And yes, I regret having wasted those years following Maharaji, especially the nine years I spent in the ashram, and the damage it caused to me and those I love. Indeed, it is the biggest regret I have in my life.

Here is what Erika says on her website:

I see Maharaji's ashrams in America as having been a grand failed experiment. And I really enjoyed the time I spent living there.

The main problem, I think, was that the ashram was transplanted whole from India to America, like some exotic plant… There was no cultural context for it here; we didn't know what to make of it or how it fit into the practice of Knowledge. In the absence of that context, people came to it for all kinds of odd reasons. Perhaps some people's motivations were simple and sincere wanting to practice Knowledge and be fully available to help Maharaji. Some of us, though, came to avoid starting a real adult life in the world (like lots of other college-age kids), some out of personal ambition ('I'm going to be the BEST devotee') and some out of religious zeal ('this is the only reality and everyone else is doomed').

While I don’t dispute that Erika might have had a good time in the ashram (although I personally recall times when Erika didn’t seem to be very happy in an ashram where we lived at the same time), I don’t think that addresses the issue. And the list of motivations of the people who entered the ashrams she suggests, leaves out the main one, and that’s Maharaji himself.

Maharaji, repeatedly, stressed the need to move into the ashram and to stay there. Since he also preached that we should surrender and devote our lives to him, that was the major motivation for many, as it was for me. I believed Maharaji was the Perfect Master who knew what was best for me. I believed he was the living incarnation of God, and I believed him when he said the purpose of my life was to devote it 100% to him, and that he provided the ashram as a means to do that. And, at the time, when I was allowed to enter the ashram, I was happy, excited, and I felt privileged for the opportunity he, the Perfect Master, gave me.

Maharaji said on many occasions that the ashram was a life-long commitment. Once in the ashram, Maharaji instructed his Initiators to tell us that leaving the ashram was not an option, and he emphasized it himself, in no uncertain terms, in numerous ashram meetings he had with us over the years, (which Erika Andersen also attended but seems to have conveniently forgotten), almost right up to the very time in 1983 when he summarily closed the ashrams without explanation.

For example, I have a copy of a tape of Maharaji speaking to his devotees in Atlantic City, New Jersey, in December, 1976, when Maharaji said the following:

“The ashram is for people who have dedicated their lives for their lifetime. When you understand that the purpose of your life is to understand knowledge and to devote your life to Maharaji, then ashram makes sense and is really required.

Ashram is intensive care provided by Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. See, you have a disease, and you have been given medicine for the disease, and that's good, which is knowledge. But we need intensive care to recover from the disease because we can fall back into the disease. And the ashram is Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital. Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married.“

Later, Maharaji reiterates that the ashram is always for a lifetime. In fact, Maharaji said you have to be there a long time for ashram to have the effect on you it is supposed to have. He said it was like you were in an accident and hit glass that wasn't safety glass, and many splinters of glass have to be pulled out of you slowly and painfully.

Of course, none of that should be a surprise to Erika. She heard all the things Maharaji said, and she knows she can’t explain it away. [Although Maharaji has attempted to destroy all evidence of the incriminating things he said in the past, that hasn’t been very successful, and if anyone you like to hear this tape, I can make it available to you.] Under these circumstances, Erika’s bizarre suggestion that the ashram was just one of a number of “options” that a premie had, is disingenuous in the extreme.

But wait, it gets worse. Later, Maharaji took questions from premies. A premie asked Maharaji about whether it was okay for him to leave the ashram and “to have a wife,” since he felt he needed one. To this, Maharaji said:

Do you need a wife, or does something else need a wife? A wife is not a human necessity. It is desire. It is just an extension of mind. Right now your mind is saying you want a wife, but if it's just a wife, why do you want the second thing, you say I want a child, and I want this and I want that. Somehow mind traps you at the weakest spot. That's the way mind taps into you. Do you want a wife, but this is really just an extension of mind. “

Then another premie asked Maharaji about people who had moved out of the ashram and got married, which a number of ashram premies had done earlier in 1976, and he asked Maharaji what they should do. Here is what Maharaji says:

“This is what you should tell them. If you take a stick of dynamite, and stick it down your throat, and light the other end with the fuse, what's gonna happen? (laughing) Who would you blame that on? The point is, who's gotta pay for that?

Look, they are married and it's ridiculous for them to get divorced. ...It was an irrational and wrong move to get married. It isn't the answer, knowledge is the answer. [Maharaji proceeds to talk about marriages that 'aren't working' and how they are worse than hell.] He continues: Whatever you sow, you reap it yourself and if it isn't working out, you are gonna reap that too....Service to Guru Maharaj Ji is personal self-dedication. Moving out of the ashram and getting married was a flip-flop move and it's a sad sight, why did they do that? Why, because it's an extension of mind. “

Could this be any more unequivocal and clear? Setting aside for a moment the psychological damage these kinds of sick statements could cause, Maharaji clearly said that not only was the ashram a life-long commitment, and was required, marriage and relationships as alternatives were “just extensions of mind” (not to mention equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite). In this light, is the drivel Erika Andersen is putting forth on this subject infuriating to those of us who know the truth of what really happened? You bet it is.

Maharaji also issued lots of threats about what would happen to an ashram premie were he or she to leave, let alone the dire calamities that would befall someone who chose not to practice knowledge anymore (variously, that one would “go to hell,” that one would “smash into a thousand pieces,” that one would have “tons of rotten vegetables rot inside of them,” etc.)

Indeed, as late at the 1980s, Maharaji instructed his Initiators to encourage every premie possible to dedicate themselves in the ashram. I know this, because as Community Coordinator for Elan Vital, I was obligated to assist in this nefarious mission. In Miami, Elan Vital lawyers processed numerous divorces for premies so they could become “unattached” and move into the ashram, often to work as unpaid, slave labor for one of Maharaji’s pet projects, like his personal luxury aircraft.

Just the year before the ashrams were closed, there was a notorious ashram inquisition, in which people like Initiator David Smith psychologically harassed and tortured the ashram residents to double their commitment or to get the hell out if they weren't 100% devoted and surrendered to Maharaji. This was, according to David Smith, at Maharaji's personal direction.

Of course, many of us in the ashram really believed, because Maharaji told us so, that he was taking care of us, because we had dedicated our lives to him. That, of course, was a pile of crap, the falsity of which was exposed when he whimsically decided in 1983 to just shut down the ashrams with no preparation whatsoever. We are told by people on the inside of the cult that he did it because he was worried about the ashram premies being a liability as they got older. Because most of the ashram premies didn’t have established careers, good health insurance, and retirement plans, their needs were increasing, and the ashrams weren't the cash cows for him that they used to be. According to those same reports, Maharaji didn’t really care how the closings were carried out. It just wasn’t one of his concerns. He just wanted it done.

When the ashrams were closed little or nothing was done, financially, psychologically, or in any other sense, to help the ashram premies make the transition into the real world. Some of these people were true babies, if you know what I mean. Some had lived in the ashram for over a decade. These were in most cases great people, in fact, who just made the terrible mistake of trusting someone as deceitful and uncaring as Maharaji.

A large number of the ashrams were in debt almost all the time, mostly because of the cost of going to programs, the cost to donate money to Maharaji himself, the cost to support Elan Vital, the cost to support Elan Vital personnel and Initiators who didn't work, and, very significantly, the cost to donate to various expensive toys Maharaji wanted, like that Boeing 707 monstrosity that cost (and wasted) millions and millions of dollars.

Most of the ashram debt was on credit cards. When I was ashram housefather in two different cities, it was always a struggle to meet all the financial commitments, because the ashram premies usually had relatively low-paying jobs, which they often lost because they had to take off for programs, and because Elan Vital moved people around a lot for 'service.' It was always a financial struggle to make ends meet. We had the advantage of living communally, but, besides debt, many of the needs that the ashram premies had, like medical, dental, clothing and other needs, were not adequately met, because there just wasn't the money due to the almost constant demands to donate to Maharaji. For example, I never had any dental work done the whole time I lived in the ashram because there wasn't any money for that. Many premies lived in ashrams without adequate medical care, all in the name of surrendering to Maharaji.

But the truth was, Maharaji didn’t even know who we were, and cared less. I lived in his ashrams for nine years, and I never even spoke to Maharaji, not even once. He never stepped foot into any ashram I ever lived in. I’m sure he never even knew my name. He certainly expressed no interest or concern whatsoever about how the ashram premies lived, or whether they were being properly taken care of. He cared even less when he dumped the ashram premies onto the streets in 1983, and even stuck them with the ashram debts, for some people as much as $20,000, individually. Again, these were people who had given Maharaji their lives – absolutely everything, and had sacrificed years of their lives to serve and support him, and yet this is how Maharaji responded to them. Clearly, that says something loud and clear about the kind of person Maharaji is.

The cavalier way in which Maharaji related to the ashrams is something that will dog him for the rest of his life. There are too many of us out there who aren’t about to forget the rotten, uncaring things Maharaji did to us, and how little he seemed to care about us as fellow human beings. And this is magnified by the fact that to this day, Maharaji has failed to even admit there was any problem, and certainly that he had anything to do with it.

Erika does admit, in her usual passive voice method of deflecting any responsibility from Maharaji, that the closing of the ashrams, at least, wasn’t done very well. But Erika engages in rank intellectual dishonesty when she, like the good cult member she is who cannot bear to criticize her cult leader, excuses Maharaji from ever having to admit, let alone atone for, the damage he caused people, because, according to Erika, people might not be able to accept his apology.

I’m speechless. It’s about justice, Erika. It’s about damage done to real human beings. Since when is it acceptable to flake out on an apology or taking responsibility for your actions unless there is some kind of guarantee that the apology will be accepted? This is culthink in the extreme.

But I’m sure Erika expects more from other people in her life and only gives such bizarre dispensations to her cult leader. Hopefully, her kids have figured out that exception and won’t learn from Erika’s retreat from the expectations one would apply to any other human being.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:33:43 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Erika's attitude is truly disgusting
Message:

Joe - thank you for your very moving post. I wasn't in the ashram. Instead I was one of the 'second class' premies...

Rawat: Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married

But I lived in a 'premie house' where we had to (as aspirants) read bastardface's satsang for 2 hours a day.Then when I got K I was supposed to (like Durga Ji!) get up before the kids and do an hour and 3 quarters meditation... bloody knackering when you have 3 kids under the age of 5! I was married to an ex-ashram premie... who, naturally was 'in his mind' for getting married in the first place. The whole community was totally screwed-up (and screwed) by the confusing number of contradictory 'agyas' from the Lard.

All power to all-of-us's elbows for getting out of the foul cult - especially considering that our self-esteem. will-power and autonomy were so drastically eroded by f**kingbastardface.

Best
Moley
xxx

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:51:30 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: To Moley...
Message:

I know that some ashram premies had a superior attitude toward community premies, but I didn't (at least most of the time).

My best premie friends never lived in the ashram, but were as dedicated as many of the cult ashram folk.

After I moved into the ashram, I noticed even more, how difficult it was for premies with children to tow the cult line. That sounds like a pretty strict premie house you lived in.

An hour and 3/4s of meditation? Ashram premies didn't do that on a regular basis.

Btw, what does 'knackering' mean?

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:05:34 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: JHB - find this a permanent home, please..
Message:

Beautifully and movingly told Joe. I admire your restraint re. Erika's revisionist claptrap, and your patience in telling the whole truth and nothing but. This deserves a place on EPO - there are many premies and exes (some of it was new to me) who never knew about much of the super-devotional culture and that evil anti-family shit. Thanks for presering and including those quotes. Thanks for all of it, in fact.
Cheers,
Nige

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:06:18 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Will do [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:20:45 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org/y
To: Joe
Subject: Good 'un,Joe! [lobotomy gave Erika amnesia] [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:23:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Powerful post, Joe
Message:

Really, that one's a keeper. I only hope it made an impression on Erika. I'm sure she read it. I can't see how, if she has any warm blood in her, she can't help but to be moved by it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:49:49 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Question about Erika.
Message:

I'm wondering what the people here think. Do you think Erika is so far gone intellectually that if her children were abused by the likes of Maharaji that she would even recognize it? Would it be okay with her for instance, for her children to live the life of an ashramite should Maharaji decide to re-open them? I know this is sheer speculation and probably unlikely but let's try another senario.
How about some sort of arrangement happening at the Amaroo site for instance. Of couse there would be rules. Have to be under 30 due to the nature of the opportunity, the rugged terrain, the ability to work long hard hours. Single of course. Willing to commit long term due to the expense of transporting one to the site and maintaining you there. Completely clean bill of health. Since Erika had such a wonderful time in the Ashram, do you think she would want the same experience for her children? What would she do if something like this happened within the cult and her children were premies? Do you suppose she would encourage her children to partake of the opportunity or would perhaps a threat like this snap her back to reality?

And to Joe, excellent, excellent post. Thanks, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:54:17 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The CLASSIC mind-f––k
Message:

Thanks Joe. Here it is. this was the quote that drove me into some kind of schizoid, can't-win insanity, when I heard it in 1976 (having just been encouraged to leave the IHQ ashram, watched the ashrams close with MJ's blessing, and then gotten married, then heard THiS:

'“This is what you should tell them. If you take a stick of dynamite, and stick it down your throat, and light the other end with the fuse, what's gonna happen? (laughing) Who would you blame that on? The point is, who's gotta pay for that?

Look, they are married and it's ridiculous for them to get divorced. ...It was an irrational and wrong move to get married. '

For me this is like someone who is being accused of having 'false memory syndrome' showing a video of the abuse.

love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:27:38 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great post Joe
Message:

I was one of the festival goers that Gregg mentions below , without a hope of getting near the lotus feet except in the darshan line .

I knew that the chances of the incarnate one pitching up at the ashrams that I was in the orbit of were slim , but I always assumed that he dropped in , now & again at some here & there , depending on the attractive force of the devotees within that is .

Now it seems he never went anywhere near any of them : of course why would the maharaja sink so low as to mix with the untouchables , & white ones at that , even worse .

Not the line at the time of course , 'disgusting spin' is right for EA's anodyne crapola , however nicely written .

You guys certainly drew the short straw in this trip but at least you had a decade of blissful certainty : no anxious guilt trip about not being devoted enough because you just couldn't bear the thought of living in a 'concentration camp' ho ho , & knew that put you in outer darkness , possibly for keeps eternity wise.

After the ashramers were told to fuck off & die the people like me were brought in from the cold & became the 'backbone' of the new dispensation.

Erika is someone who is trying to square the circle , but like all such she's fooling no-one but herself.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:51:52 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: 'told to fuck off & die'LOL [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:24:00 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: excellent Joe (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:08:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca :(
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ***BEST, BEST, BEST of FORUM***
Message:

Please enshrine this post along with the other Best of Forums on the ashrams. Joe, thank you, thank you, for taking the time!

Sincerely,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:47:05 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca :(
Subject: M will never go on record
Message:

and an apology would be just that, a public, legal self-incriminating statement of responsiblity. Geeze, I swear he and ev have hijacked corporate America's policy and procedure books for upper management.
He will never go on record for anything that might put him in an unfavorable position for litigation. Besides, he probably figures he will outlive the ashram premies and then the whole miserable episode will be dust in the wind.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:36:44 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Differnet experiences in ashrams
Message:

First of all, I remember once JM posted a link to prove that M directed all single PWKs to move into an ashram. I read the link, and I remember that in that link M said something like this: “For those who are sincere I recommend the ashram but I will not push anyone into the ashram”

Another thing: My English is not excellent but when I read M say: “The ashram is for people who have dedicated their lives for their lifetime”, I honestly understood this was about dedication towards K (frankly no one can dedicate their life to a house) and I don’t see that this means that anyone who moves into the ashram should stay there for the rest of their lifetime? Or even that ashrams should be forever.

I have lived in ashrams in 5 different countries. Although I was ashram secretary, I was not a role model. I even had an affair with a woman I later married and am still married to. Actually she told my kids the other day, there were 7 boys in the ashram and everyone was in love with her. But strangely enough she was only in love with me. And believe me, I was not the best guy there.
This was a time when no one I knew had credit cards. Our econmy was good, and I think we had a different culture. I allowed people to go home to their families during holidays, and we even went to all the festivals in Europe. The money system was based on cash and we bought a car and stuff, and had no debts. There was never a question about going to dentist or doctors if needed (the same was the case in other countries I lived in – including Denver).

I was in a strange situation: I never moved into or out of the ashram, because the ashram moved into the house I rented. And when I finally returned to my country from another country, the same day the lease for the ashram flat went out. Then I married and a few months later another ashram opened.
Finally when the ashrams were closed in my country, the 3 ashram residents owned a flat. When they sold the flat for about 100 000 dollars or something like that (I cant remember the currency), they shared the money, One person did not want the money, and one gave the money to another person and the third bought a MG convertible sportscar and “had a party” for some years. If you don’t believe me about this, ask one of them who is/ was close to be an ex (Erling Flaa) and who actually gave away his “share”. Of course it was a discussion if the ashrams residents should keep the money.

Quite a few of the ashram people I knew, came from a situation where they had no education, or good jobs. Some had been drug addicts (for a short periode me too). I think most people went through a healing process, and managed to maintain a structured life.

In my ashram life there were times when I was not so happy, for instance when I lived in other countries, and really did not have any challenging work to do. But bottom line, I would not have missed my ashram life. And we honestly had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot.

But then again – shit happens – someone stick to the shit, and someone sticks to the good stuff. It is really a matter of choice – or Public relations.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:04:09 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: IGNORE the above post from ''B''^^^^ [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:43:04 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Perhaps you're a sadist, Bjørn
Message:

I often wonder why you write posts in order to inflame people. Yes, I still remember your post to me when I was desperately trying to get CAC off my back and I remember your totally heartless and cruel words to me at that time.

Sadists don't appear as shadowy creatures of the night. That's only in films. Real sadists appear as normal, presentable people who secretly stick the knife in at any and every possible opportunity. Their's is a secret agenda that is unknown to other people.

You see, your above post could be seen as a perfectly reasonable response to something you disagree with. But is that really the case? Is it not true that you delight in every twist of the knife that you can torture these people with?

If you're not actually a sadist, you are remarkably insensitive - to an absurd extreme.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:58:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:

First of all, I can't remember I posted something to you about Cac, but if you feel offended about what I wrote about this, I am sorry. However my point is that it is nessessary to see things from different angles. And my point about cac, even though I hated it, is that some people tased their own medicine, and also that if you do something you cannot blame others for it. Everybody have to - at least for themselves take responsibility for their own actions.

Well, every sides have 2 sides. Joe et al presented their perspective of the ashrams, and dont you think this is like a knife in my heart, when I read his post. But even if it might be stupid of me to even read his post, I think it is sane to see other peoples perspective.

I have been accused to post because I am kind of trying to get some attention thus people can harass me or ridicule me. Now you state the oposite implying I am a sadist? So at least one can say perspectives differ. BYW, I wanted to reply to your post at LG, but I decided to stop posting. Why I posted again? Gerry treatened me and Mickey provoked me.

Am I 'remarkably insensitive - to an absurd extreme.'? Personally I don't think so. My motivation has always been to present a different angle of perspectives. But I am not certain about what to call some peoples posts to me. What would you call those people?

Well it appears to me that the exes forums, is some kind of a forrest. To me it seems that in this forrest lives 'craws'. Nobody is positive, (except when they say Kra, Kra, good Kra, mate) and anyone who enters this forrest only can hear 'Kra, Kra'

When some (in my perspective beautiful birds) come along and tries to sing a beautiful song, the flock of craws attack the little bird. I suppose I am a semicraw, but being a slow learner, I have been wounded and hurt. I dont feel sorry for myself, because I am the one who entered this forrest.
So this is a kind of guest visit. I posted something at LG, and was waiting for a response, and checked here and felt a need to express my story in the ashram, so I did.

Hope I will not meet you again

Take care, and Dave, I hope things with your kids and personal live will be OK. If it is any comfort, I think most people (except exes) have forgotten about it - I for one dont think I even read 'your page' at CAC.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:43:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Kra, Kra, yourself!
Message:

To me it seems that in this forrest lives 'craws'. Nobody is positive, (except when they say Kra, Kra, good Kra, mate) and anyone who enters this forrest only can hear 'Kra, Kra'

Er, that would be 'CAW, CAW!', not 'KRA, KRA!' When did you ever hear a crow go 'KRA, KRA'? Christ, you can't even get that right!

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:24:54 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Funny Jerry
Message:

when you describe the song of a craw in Norway, you say 'Kra Kra'. Maybe their language differ?

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:18:52 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Kra, Kra, kra kra -- 96 tears! [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:44:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: You ... you...you are a complete imbecile!
Message:

Bjorn,

Joe's description of the ashram is a concise, comprehensive and fair depiction. It might not be a photograph but it's a damn good colour illustration. Erika's is a simplistic portrait, maybe something a grade eight kid might do in art class. There's an attempt at perpsective but it's skewed. Also, the colours are all off.

Your description, however, is like a three year-old's stick drawing.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:59:11 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I was hoping
Message:

evryone would just ignore his posts and eventually he'd get so lonesome he'd wander off to LG to update them on how much of a cult Epo is :)

He'll probably reply to you with 10,000 words of gibberish now !

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:51:11 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Dermot no need to comment Jim
Message:

his post speaks for itself.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:46:07 (EDT)
From: Not so lucky
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: You lucky, lucky, bastard
Message:

How tall are you? Really? I didn't know they could pile it that high.

It's very sad your parents couldn't have children.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:54:38 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'Guru' Maharaj Ji
Message:

Beautifully written piece, Joe.

It is truly astonishing how the man could have told us how much he cared about us while at the same time treating those who had dedicated their lives to him so terribly.

Although there were, at one point, many thousands of festival-going premies, too many for him to get to know personally, such was not the case with the ashram premies. Maharaj Ji could have made an occasional visit to some of his greatest cash cows. But he didn't need to (and certainly didn't want to spend any time at a dump without a gold loo).

It speaks to the intensity of cult programming that ashram premies could give so much without even expecting the hint of a thank you from the Exalted One.

None of this makes any difference to folks like Erika, of course. It's too bad, really. Leaving the 'Guru' usually turns out to be a refreshingly blissful experience. But it's like AA: you gotta admit a few unpleasant truths first.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:53:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That says it all -- well done indeed [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:08:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent Post Joe.
Message:

Hi Joe,

It's great to see the clapped-out cult pooch firmly chained to reality by such posts. Much as they are trying to rewrite their sordid, sorry history, posts like this throws their shabby spin back in their faces.

Thanks for that Joe.

Anth, who lived in a cult hothouse too.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:46:53 (EDT)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Excellent,plus a question for M...
Message:

Joe-

Thanks again for a well thought out essay on the ashrams.
It's amazing how people like Erika try and gloss over the ashram experience, and the devasatating effects it had on the people who took maharaji literally, and gave it all, only to be thrown out on the street when he decided to jettison the 'experiment'.

I can testify to the intense pressure put on premies to move into the ashram-in fact,I remember you as the Wash. DC coordinator.Randy Prouty and Alan Imbarrato tried to force me and others into the ashram constantly.
Thanks for not being one of the 'company men' with the 'party line'.

My question to maharaji and premies like Erika is this:

If the ashram was so great, would you recommend it to your kids?
Even just for a year?

Would maharaji want his kids to be treated that way?

I'd be interested in their answer, but am not holding my breath.

Thanks, Joe.

I think this should be put somewhere in epo.

Jim S.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:09:07 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent, EXCELLENT post Joe
Message:

Really puts all the current revisionism to shame. Although I only lived in the ashram for 1974 and 75 (unlike your longer time there) I really can relate to your post.

Your meticulous description of the ashram lifestyle is SPOT ON. I'm saving this post. Thanks.

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:15:15 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***Once Again, Joe...
Message:

Joe,

Your post describes everything so well about the ashrams. I never really thought too much about the fact the Maharaji never visited the ashrams. Weird, don't you think?

It's almost like he ignored us on purpose.

Btw, I personally verify what you said about the divorce mill which was operating out of Divine Light Mission headquarters in Miami Beach during and after the 707 project. I assisted the attorney and we processed countless divorces so premies could move into the ashram (some who had children)!!

Maharaji's personal desires for opulent and fancy stuff often required premies who had a ''special skill'' to complete projects (as slaves). Maharaji certainly has an appetite to acquire people.

Your post was superb, Joe. You've done it again!

It's a keeper,
Cynthia

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