Brian -:- A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:36:54 (GMT)

__ cq -:- and Jagdeo's still at large representing EV? (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:26:40 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Right on the nose Brian. (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:39:51 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Right on, I agree completely (or just about) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:18:08 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:32:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- You missed my point.... -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:35:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Ulf -:- What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:54:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:21:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:25:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:47:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kaj -:- international airspace? (OT) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:59:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- remember this about eastern diplomacy: -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:17:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Eastern Diplomacy (OT) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:59:49 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- About this matter -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:58:38 (GMT)

__ __ ET -:- We were at Millenium Sandy! -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:50:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- So is this your invisible friend, Bill? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:37:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- My invisible freinds are typeing on the forum...nt -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)

__ __ Lesley -:- Sorry, Sandy, that's changed too -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:52 (GMT)

__ __ Brian -:- Rawat's non-step towards change -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:54:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- So in other words... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:26:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- What's wrong with option D)? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:10:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're dreaming as usual, Sandy -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:55:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian -:- They are separate issues -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:11:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- THANK YOU! You are so right , M. teaches nothing -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:48:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Just excellent, Brian. Thanks - a must read. NT -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:51:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Don't forget the suicides -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Distinguishing the Issues... -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:30:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Public apology - what venue? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:23:38 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:32:29 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- justice can only be demanded by the victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ salam -:- According to previous posts -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:15:37 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:36:54 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat
Message:

Abi posted:
My father met Maharaji alone yesterday at Amaroo for about 40min and spoke with him about the Jagdeo issue. Maharaji had only just read my father's letter the day before. He was very moved, very upset, almost to tears. They spoke father to father about this issue. Basically M said how sorry he was over and over again and that EV had to take care of it.

My father then met with Valerio who said that EV would seek to bring Jagdeo to justice, offer a public apology and see about dealing with the damage this has caused.

The value gained by Abi's father from his 40 minutes with Rawat aside, I have no reason to believe that this meeting indicates a sea-change in Maharaji's viewpoint or behavior.

I'm waiting to see what form this 'public apology' takes. My bet is that any public apology comes only from EV officials apologising for the past mistakes of past officials. I see no change here.

I'm also waiting to see what form 'dealing with the damage' takes. What do they think the damage is? That children were abused and have carried mental scars, or that Rawat and EV have suffered major PR embarrassment over the betrayed trust of premie parents and children? My bet is on the latter, and I see no change here either.

Rawat's sudden sensitivity to the 'Jagdeo issue' only came about after the number of his followers reading this site and this forum MADE him sensitive to it. Had Abi's father wanted 40 minutes of Rawat's time WITHOUT the public spotlight stretching out a red carpet to the throne, he would have been laughed at.

Maharaji now believes that EV should deal with the problem, and so they assured Abi's father that they will. I certainly see no change here.

What Maharaji believes determines what EV does. They are responsible for what happens as a result of his choices, and at the moment his choice is that they accept the resposibility for the 'damage' and deal with it.

EV is his personal shield against the consequences of his own decisions, and not a real organisation with its own decision-making process operating independent of Rawat's whims. I'm sure that their level of public guilt will only reflect Rawat's level of desired personal innocence.

Father-to-father, he can blubber all he wants. The real question is what he says when the relationship with his listeners is that of the Master-to-student relationship required of aspirants before they can receive his 'gift'.

This month, according to EV sources, thousands will have shelled out large sums of money to gather in Amaroo and listen to Maharaji's 'message' delivered personally. If he is at all serious about addressing the over-all trust issue underlying the REAL damage done to people, then he can use that venue to begin to demonstrate that he is willing to start being honest with people about his real nature, and to stop abusing their trust by dishing up more lies about being a special person entrusted by the Universe to be the sole imparter of common meditation techniques.

I'm betting that when those who trust his words next hear him speak, that he will choose to continue to abuse their trust by perpetuating the Master myth. In that case he will be choosing to continue to be the fraud he has personally chosen to be in the past.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:26:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: and Jagdeo's still at large representing EV? (nt)
Message:

sheesh

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:39:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Right on the nose Brian. (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Right on, I agree completely (or just about)
Message:

I also see no change here, whatsoever. You really have to engage in wishful thinking to get to that, in my opinion.

Regarding a 'public apology,' take the latest US/Chinese situation as an example.

First, it will come from Elan Vital and not Maharaji. Second, it will accept no blame or responsibility whatsoever. It will say something like.

'It has come to are attention that there are allegations against......we are very conerned about this.....we have a policy against this and so does Maharaji....we are investigating and are just working our little legs off trying to get to the bottom of it.....the alleged perpetrator is no longer a part of Elan Vital....if anything bad did occur, we give our sympathy to any of the alleged victims.....PERIOD< PERIOD< PERIOD

True, Elan Vital is a shield for Maharaji, and his statement that Elan Vital MUST take care of it all and not HIM, is just outrageous, and actually makes things worse, if you ask me.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT)
Message:

Regarding a 'public apology,' take the latest US/Chinese situation as an example.

Example of what? It now seems pretty clear that the chinese pilot was buzzing the hell out of these guys and finally flew too close and hit them. They're in international airspace at the time and do indeed radio a bunch of 'Maydays' before their emergency landing. Do you take issue with any of this? What part? Don't you think the Chinese should be apologizing like crazy here for almost killing a bunch of foreigners, not to mention for lying (vis-a-vis the accident and the 'Maydays'), for unfairly intimidating the crew (sleep deprivation, threatening to prosecute when there was no basis at law for same) and for trying to extract this bullshit apology out of what was really turning into just another hostage situation?

Unless the crew are complete liars, that pilot only got what he asked for and the Americans are happy he didn't kill them in the process.

Your views?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:35:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You missed my point....
Message:

Don't care to discuss the OT, Jim. I'm afraid I don't have time at the moment.

My point was that 'apologies' can be carefully worded to avoid taking responsbility or blame, and that it's likely that Elan Vital's lawyers will do the same. And, of course, it won't even COME from Maharaji.

One thing is obvious, though. George W. had to leave it to the adults to carefully craft the 'very sorry' letter to the Chinese, in the light of the problems he always has with the English language.

If you heard Harry Schearer yesterday on 'Le Show,' he did a parody of Dubya singing his 'very sorries' in a country and Western song. It was pretty funny.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:54:33 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT)
Message:

the way i have have being understanding this ,is that
the american plane was NOT in international airspace.
All the t.v and radios here have never pointed out
that the airspace was international

Ulf

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:

Here's a timeline from U.S.A. Today. Are they lying?:

Chronology of the China-U.S. spy plane standoff

A chronology of the spy plane crash and diplomatic maneuvering between the United States and China.

DAY 1 — Sunday, April 1

— A U.S. Navy EP-3E surveillance plane with a 21-man, 3-woman crew collides with a Chinese fighter jet sent to intercept it over the South China Sea, well outside China's 12-mile territorial sea and airspace. It makes an emergency landing at a military airfield on China's Hainan island.

— China says the plane's crew members are safe but reports the Chinese fighter crashed and its pilot is missing. Beijing blames the U.S. aircraft for the collision.

— Adm. Dennis Blair, commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Command, says the collision was caused by a 'pattern of increasingly unsafe behavior' by China's military.

DAY 2 — Monday, April 2

— U.S. diplomats leave for Hainan hoping to meet with U.S. crew members.

— President Bush urges China to release the aircraft and let U.S. diplomats meet crew members. Says failure to do so would violate 'standard diplomatic practice.'

DAY 3 — Tuesday, April 3

— President Bush says China must release crew and plane. Secretary of State Colin Powell says crew is detained by China and that the United States has nothing to apologize for.

— U.S. diplomats meet with crew members and report they are fine.

DAY 4 — Wednesday, April 4

— Chinese President Jiang Zemin demands a U.S. apology.

— The Bush administration offers regrets but no apology.

DAY 5 — Thursday, April 5

— In Beijing, police detain several Chinese protesters outside U.S. Embassy.

— China says the U.S. crew members broke international law and will be kept for questioning, repeats demand for formal U.S. apology.

— U.S. diplomats give Chinese officials books, magazines and snacks for the crew members.

DAY 6 — Friday, April 6

— U.S. diplomats see crew members. Powell says they are in 'good health' and 'high spirits' and that diplomats may get to meet with them regularly.

— Both sides begin reviewing a draft letter intended to end the stalemate that would express regrets for the loss of life and entail an exchange of views on the collision.

DAY 7 — Saturday, April 7

— China's top foreign affairs official writes Powell to say statements of regret are inadequate and demand an apology.

— U.S. side says its position is unchanged.

DAY 8 — Sunday, April 8

— Talks continue on freeing crew. Bush sends letter expressing condolences to wife of missing Chinese fighter pilot.

DAY 9 — Monday, April 9

— President Bush cautions that 'diplomacy takes time' but warns China that relations could suffer if it doesn't release the crew.

DAY 10 — Tuesday, April 10

— China says Powell's expression of regret is a step in the right direction, repeats demand for apology.

— President Bush describes situation as a 'stalemate.'

DAY 11 — Wednesday, April 11

— United States and China reach agreement for crew's release.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:21:24 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:

I get your point
and it looks like, it was not international airspace

when i read your post , and that is new to me

Why was the papers here(in Skandinavian) not making a point of this.

I think it makes the whole story change.


Ulf

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:25:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:

You mean it WAS international airspace, right? As per the article?

Sure, it makes for a different picture. Why the press implied otherwise, I don't know.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:47:04 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:

Reading your paper , i will say that it was international
airspace.
But over here ,everybody i know , is thinking that
the plane was indeed , in china airspace
So we are all thinking , why did it take so long for that
apology.
Why are they so fucking proud
It have never(over here) been clearly said that
it was international airspace ?

All people here are thinking that it was china airspace
Ulf

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: international airspace? (OT)
Message:

It appears that whether the US spyplane really was in international airspace rather than in Chinese is under dispute.
Until now, the majority of the reports I have read suggest that the US plane was above Chinese territory. Of course the US denies that - but it does not turn it into a fact. I doubt that the truth will be easily known.

Nonetheless, be it either way, it was a spyplane, and I can't see that the US has any business spying on the Chinese, the more than the Chinese has the right to spy on the US.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:17:45 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Ulf and jim
Subject: remember this about eastern diplomacy:
Message:

we in the west are rugged individualists, self made successes, young in the ways of history. our cultures are only a couple of centuries old in world history. adolescents, realy. and like adolescents, we tend to b defensive, naive, simplistic, idealistic and subtlety is lost on us. we take things on the face of it, unaware of the undercurrents, past history and needs.
china is an ancient and 'inscrutable' civilization, thousands of years old. chinese diplomacy is subtle, and rooted in saving face and preserving the appearance of dignity, formality, honor and proper recognition. we are talkng of emperors and dynasties that were considered the embodiment of heaven to earth that went on for millennia at a time. the communist regime is only a fleck on the robes of history by comparison. you do not change the mind of a people that steeped in their own way.

the US is not averse to apologizing when they have indeed done something wrong and they know it. and they have their shifty side too, practicing plausible deniability like any crafty adolescent, scheming on how to con their parents with a believable story to cover for what they were actually up to. as grows the twig, so shapes the tree.

but you have two terrible different cultures here, oversensitive in radically different ways. the US views their mission as utterly justified, since US nuclear technology was stolen by chinese agents right out from under the noses of the labs and spirited back to china for implementation. the US feels responsible for letting that dangerous abiity get into the hands of the wrong people, and feels duty bound to follow up and try to find out where it went and to get it back, destroy it, or at least monitor it, for the sake of world safety. If they say they were in international airspace, outside the 12 mile boundary, they probably were, but remembering the teenage analgy, they could also be fudging or bluffing in the hope that the rest of the tale carries that detail without much examination.

Then you have China, who knows they have the secrets, knows what they are doing with them, and knows where they are. No way in hell are they gonna let the americans come in over their airspace and find what they are looking for, much less blow it up. If that means sending up a hotdog pilot who knows full well he may have to sacrifice himself in the sky to keep the americans from finding what they came for, then he will do it. so he scrambles, hazes them, but is very careful not to actually kill them. He gives them escalating degrees of peril, trying to deter them and give them the choice to turn back, and when he sees that it isnt going to be sufficient, he makes his ultimate decision, as prediscussed before he accepted the mission, and he disables the american plane to insure that it will have to land in chinese space where it can be intimately examined, without killing the americans in an act of war, and giving his own life for the glory of his career and the ancient land that sent him to defend it.

the chinese pilot's mission was a success. he accomplished exactly what he was asked to do. he will have a hero's burial and memory with the country.
the americans were handled exactly as the Chinese intended. They protected their secret, obtained more knowledge of the US spy technology from detaining the crippled US spy plane, didn't harm the american personnel, and get to play the injured, wronged party due an apology on the world stage, by portraying themselves as being invaded over their own airspace.

they know the truth and so does the US.

The critical thing in the entire episode is to continue to keep the chinese nuclear ability in check. the secondary thing is to keep the episode from touching off some kind of act of war or declared hardened stance, vis a vis china, that could lead to war. if assuaging their diplomatic egos with formal dioramas at court will soothe this over, so much the better.
the surveillance can continue.

if the US continues to assert that no apology is justified, this can needlessly escalate to open hostility. the dispute as to whther the collision took place in chinese space or international space can be used to either gracefully yeild or to create a bone of contention.

it is a well known technique of diplomacy to apologize even when one knows one is in the right, for the grace of it, in providing the opponent a way out. use of words such as 'perhaps' or aknowledging common and similar impulses to protect one's own borders in suspicious circumstances can lead the face-off in less threatening,more seemly directions that can end in more courteous agreement. The US knows full well what the Chinese did and why they did it. This disagreement on where it happened is a diversionary point. If the US chooses to stick over it, it is because it sets precedent for future scenarios regarding where the boundaries will be.

To back off the acuity of this moment, a way must be found to mollify the Chinese in some manner that relaxes them, relaxes their ego and lets them feel right, while costing the US and the rest of the non Chinese world nothing of value, so that other methods of monitoring and mitigating the nuclear threat can be used. Any good con knows how to do this. Hell- Maharaji is doing it right now with the meeting with Abi's dad!

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:59:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Eastern Diplomacy (OT)
Message:

Janet:

Very insightful observations concerning the role of the nuclear genie. However, I think it may be misleading to simply look at the US culture as 'young,' even though it clearly is. It's also very different in *kind*. We are ideological not because we're young, but because the culture is based on ideology, rather than ethnicity. This puts Taiwan right at ground zero in the dispute, between one society that bases it's position on the familial relationships between the older and younger 'brother' (Mao and Chaing) and who both see Sun Yat Sen as the 'father' of a unitary entity, and another society that sees Taiwan as an ideological fortress of liberalism. Neither side is inclined to relinquish it's position, so China is seeking some sort of advantage it can later use to pry the US loose. In other words, this is all about leaverage over Taiwan.

Somehow the US has to ultimately make the case that the younger brother was not only justified in what he did, but is the *real* revolutionary voice of China. In other words, this impasse can only be resolved if China moves in the direction of liberalism, and *toward* Taiwan's system.

At the Institute here in greater DC we have Chinese Ph.D. students from both Taiwan and the Mainland, and they are often not speaking to one another. The feud is very palpable. There's a lot of work involved in *not* touching off this powder keg before there's any chance to resolve it.

Sorry about the OT.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:58:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: About this matter
Message:

Jagdeo is/was a mahatma, under the direct supervision of Maharaji, not EV. Bottom line. These events are disappointing, but a step in the right direction.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:50:56 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: We were at Millenium Sandy!
Message:

dfhgkd

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:37:25 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: So is this your invisible friend, Bill?
Message:

Come on, you know the rules:)

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: My invisible freinds are typeing on the forum...nt
Message:

scgna

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:52 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sorry, Sandy, that's changed too
Message:

The instructors are 'officially' managed by EV, even though they obviously still consider themselves to belong to their master and under his orders, not EV.

Personally, I am relieved and glad that I harbour no secrets anymore. My presentation is an accurate representation of myself and that feels relaxing and good.

Um, accurate, I say, well perhaps I should add that I feel a bit like an over inflated balloon that is sinking back into a natural shape!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:54:48 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sandy
Subject: Rawat's non-step towards change
Message:

These events are disappointing, but a step in the right direction.

Rawat apologised to person #1 for the damage that person #2 did to person #3. He doesn't admit to being personally responsible for any of it - yet he apologised for 40 minutes. You see a real step? In a direction that will lead where?

Do you believe that Rawat is willing to offer the same 40-minute sensitivity-session to placate EVERY father of Jagdeo's victims?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for tossing all those people out onto the streets when he closed the ashrams?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for making them pay the costs at the time after they'd already turned over their money to him for years?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for building his entire comfortable life on the financial contributions and slave-labor of those who thought that World Peace would result from their sacrifices?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for the lies that he has told, and continues to tell, to cause trusting people to make those sacrifices in the first place?

Jagdeo is/was a mahatma, under the direct supervision of Maharaji, not EV. Bottom line.

Right. So he's telling yet another lie. A 40-minute denial of all personal responsibility that you view as being a step in the right direction.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:26:37 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: So in other words...
Message:

There seems to be an element here that wants Maharaji to 'clean up his act', as if that will make things somewhat better and he can continue his mission with a thumbs-up from them. Then there is another element that just wants to expose the dirt and bury him in it, with no room for any reconciliation on any level.

If you knew that someone or a group of folks had it in for you, justifiably or unjustifiably, and they did not want to reconcile, but just beat you up, how willing would you be to get straight with them and expose your belly to them?

At this altitude - coming onto the world with a messianic message and mission - there are not alot of choices:

A) He is a genuine teacher and Knowledge is a real connection to our inner selves, even though he, DLM/EV have been messy at times and individuals have been hurt. His shortcoming is not his authenticity, but rather his to date limited ability to personally connect with his premies when things went haywire and premies got hurt or confused.

B) He is a basically well-meaning but materialistic caricature of a world teacher and is just running his trip on whoever he can. Knowledge is just a parlor trick that many teachers know how to impart.

C) He is a false teacher and Knowledge is just a red herring yogic illusion to divert attention from his vast accumulation of $$$.

Out of the three choices I have presented, I can't see him as B) or C) from my own perspective. That leaves 1). If you can respond without being insulting, I welcome your dialog...oh hell, even if you have to be insulting, I will welcome your dialog and will just skip the shitty parts.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:10:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What's wrong with option D)?
Message:

D) He is materialistic teacher, and is just running his trip on whoever he can. Knowledge is just four meditation techniques (among many) that many teachers can teach.

You could test out the second part of this by teaching the meditation techniques to someone who will give them a try, but doesn't know anything about Maharaji. Of course it would be better if you had a larger sample like David Lane had, but there's a good chance that even one person will have a definite experience. Of course, you would need to be careful not to give any interpretation of any experience they might get, such as:-

It's an experience of God.
It's an experience of your life force.
It's an experience of your true self.
..or anything else that raises the subject's expectation of the experience.

As you still obviously suspect only Maharaji can teach meditation, it would worth be a try wouldn't it to remove your doubts?

John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You're dreaming as usual, Sandy
Message:

There seems to be an element here that wants Maharaji to 'clean up his act', as if that will make things somewhat better and he can continue his mission with a thumbs-up from them.

A little wishful thinking? No one I know thinks anything of the sort. Quit projecting your fantasies everywhere.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:11:59 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sandy
Subject: They are separate issues
Message:

Your 3 choices link a viewpoint of Rawat with an assigned viewpoint of Knowledge. If there are only 3 possible ways to view each of them, that's 9 different combinations, not 3.

I'm not concerned here with the nature of Knowledge, and you won't find anything on the site that passes judgement on it's benefits/drawbacks. That's a subjective judgement, like the value of prayer. Ask 2 premies (who will actually dare to talk honestly about their own personal experiences without Rawat's permission to do so) and you'll get different answers.

But unlike prayer or meditation, you CAN make an objective evaluation about a 'genuine teacher', as you put it.

If indeed people have the ability to experience the mystical or spiritual or whatever, that ability is in-born and not granted (or denied) by some other person.

It's one thing to say, 'I know something that you don't know yet', and another to say, 'I know something that you are incapable of ever knowing because I am a special being and - face it - you're not.'

As a 'genuine teacher', Rawat doesn't teach anything. Real teachers produce teachers, not life-long students. If there is no learning, there was no teaching. If there is learning, then the ability to teach results from that.

Schools are full of students. In 20 years many of them will be back in the classroom as teachers. They'll teach others to read because because they were taught, and because they personally see a value in others having that same ability.

None of them were ever made to promise that they wouldn't share what they've learned with others by some over-puffed 'genuine teacher'. Truth, Knowledge, the ability to read, etc are not the property of a 'special' person who places himself above the rest of us.

You started out like a lot of us - wanting to understand your own self. If meditation helps you in that process, then practice it.

But premies don't dwell on the value of Knowledge. They don't share that 'experience' with others, because they don't actually value it.

I have more respect for Father Love than for premies. He personally saw a value in Knowledge, and so he shared it with others. And he didn't make them kiss his ass first, or afterwards as a sign of eternal gratitude for what he showed them.

What about you, Sandy? You're always going off about what a great thing Knowledge is. Who have you shared it with? Is your own 'experience' so tied to Maharaji that you can't imagine that you had any light inside yourself before you were shown how to see it?

Premies dwell on 'Maharaji' - his magical wonderfulness. They want to help him share 'his message', and they have nothing to say themselves otherwise. They haven't learned a damn thing - about their own self or about the nature of those who pretend to be more than what they are. There are no enlightened premies. None. Zero.

Including Rawat. To the extent that he perpetuates the lie about the Master/Student relationship and the gratitude that is due him for what his 'students' haven't learned, he is a fraud. To the extent that they practice the self-deception necessary to view him as 'special', they are fools.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:48:54 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: THANK YOU! You are so right , M. teaches nothing
Message:

As Joy once said, the ''meditation'' is just a lure to get people interested in M. Joy also maintained that new exes should stop practicing M's ''meditation techniques''. I disagreed with her at first, but am starting to see it her way.

Those same techniques, taught in a more traditional way, as YOGA, without all the religious baggage, provide a much more easy and satisfying meditation experience. And you can share that with anyone!

It's only natural to want to share what you have learned. The premies have nothing to share, except devotion to their Master. That is the only thing M. ''teaches''. I'm happy to say I don't practice ''M's Knowledge'' any more. The only reason for keeping M's techniqus secret is to manipulate people, and keep them from discovering that it's a common type of yoga, debased by M., which is misused as a lure into a personality cult.

Thanks for such a clear post.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:51:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Just excellent, Brian. Thanks - a must read. NT
Message:

j

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Don't forget the suicides
Message:

Agree wtih everything you say, Brian. I do think, however, that, while Maharaji might not have intended any 'sea change', meeting with Abi's dad might be more of a precedent than he was looking for. [What sayest thou, EV monitor? Care to let us know how this 'gesture' of Maharaji's is playing out back in the bunker?] Maharaji's either going to never do this again, in which case he'll look like he was just pretending the other day, or he'll meet with other representatives of seriously aggrieved people so he can continue to hide behind his front organization, etc.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:30:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Distinguishing the Issues...
Message:

As I see it, there are a few issues here that may be getting blurred.

The first issue is the fact that Maharaji ''granted'' a private ''audience'' to Abi's father. I placed quotes over those words because that's the way premies (especially dyed in the wool ones) will view it. He's still exalted as Master and anything he says will be believed. Should he mention this issue or make an apology at Amaroo, he will only positively reinforce premies' idealistic and programmed view of him that he can 'come down off his thrown' and talk to actual premies...that will satisfy premies. (Not so good.) Yet THAT cannot be considered a public apology. In what venue will that public apology take place?

I don't believe he had a choice at this juncture (to not to meet with Abi's father) because it appears that a lot of premies are staying away from Amaroo; they are reading this site. In order to gain credibility and maintain his head of cult standard with his current followers, he had to do something that looks like a humanitarian effort (meeting with Abi's father). Personally, I don't think he would ever have done so without pressure from this forum, as well as, the pressure of the upcoming Amaroo event.

This first issue is premies' dissatisfaction with Maharaji/EV and how that will play out over the coming weeks.

The second issue is what Abi and Susan want (which really is the primary issue, but not here). That is their private business. When a child is abused in such a way, it's not usually within a cult, is not usually discussed on a public opposition website forum where information gets posted, revealed and discussed. Confronting one's abuser is a choice each victim/survivor makes for themself under ANY circumstances. In this regard, it is up to those individuals to decide if the issue has been satisfied or has brought closure to them. This, again, is never guaranteed, and only those directly involved are in the position to know this. Maharaji expressed ''sympathy'' to a father, yet, he isn't the actual perpetrator, Jagdeo is. So Maharaji has granted himself the perfect scapegoats: Jagdeo and DLM and EV. Which we all know is false, because he's been harboring a pedophile and we all know it.

Yet, still, it is up to the Jagdeo survivors to decide whether they are satisfied or if they will continue to pursue this further via legal action or whatever avenue they choose.

The third issue is us. The ex-premies. Each one of us has personal issues with Maharaji, whether or not we've worked them out emotionally/spiritually/intellectually.

We've heard that M met with Abi's father and feel very dissatisfied (at least I do), I can't speak for everyone--especially Abi, her father and Susan. We know Maharaji is pulling another, well, Maharaji i.e., mixing everything up and pointing his finger at EV, DLM, Jagdeo, everyone except himself. He's so transparent it is truly laughable. He's up against a wall, yet he's pretty good at squirming out, and we can see that, but, personally, I feel helpless about it other than to continue to post here.

What about the rest of us? Well, I don't think M's concerned about the rest of us right now....he's got a major controversy on his hands and, like any other sleezebag cult leader, he's pawning it all off to those he rules. But that doesn't mean I can't express my own disappointment with how this Jagdeo matter has been dealt with over some 20 years. Nor am I excluded from the conversation: what about the???? ashrams?? DECA??? hit and runs???, etc., etc., etc....

The fourth and final issue is the most important IMO. That's the question of whether or not Jagdeo, and any other of the sex offending Mahatmas will actually be taken out of circulation so that real, live, innocent children will be saved from possible harm from them. What guarantee and how will that guarantee be made available to Abi, Susan, all of the victims, and the ex-premies? How will we know if what Maharaji promised in terms of 'justice' will be carried out? How can we ever be satisfied with someone we have come to know as a liar and a con-man?

Hopefully, over the next weeks and months, something will happen that reassures us that Jagdeo, et al, are out of contact with children.

Then what? We will continue, at least I plan to, to post my objections to EV, Maharaji, and the entire fraud that's been perpetrated upon us.

That's how I see it today...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:23:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Public apology - what venue?
Message:

'In what venue will that public apology take place?'

Good question. To be truly public, an apology would have to be accessable to the public at large, people who are not his devoted slaves. For example, there should be an apology on his web sites. (I say 'his' because he really controls Elan Vital.) There should be a personal public apology from Rawat that includes an admission of his wrongdoings. I don't buy his story that he didn't know about Jagdeo's crimes. And when will he apologize for the ashrams? Years ago when asked regarding the ashrams 'What was that all about?' he replied 'Mistakes were made.' I'm afraid that he will pull the same stunt this time.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:32:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat
Message:

The fact that missed memories and lack of responce from EV can only mean something. There is a legal issue to be addressed if and when the apology will come. Letigations may follow, meaning money going out of rawats coffers. This could by itself lead to other law suites.

I think rawat is walking on a tight rope and his legal team is going full steam ahead of trying to figure out how to minimise the impact of his apology. But like you said, he may pass the hot potato on the indian mahatmas.

Master-devotee, how long will he hang on to that?

Great insight.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:01:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: justice can only be demanded by the victims
Message:

rawat can do no more than fire jagdeo. that won;t take jagdeo out of circulation from having access to real live children. EV can fire jagdeo. same result. the only action that has teeth, with regards to getting jagdeo out of circulation, so that no more children can be subject to his sexual aberrations, is for abi and susan, and any other victims he assaulted to report his crimes to law enforcement, and to be willing to go through the justice system, to apprehend him, arrest him, charge him, jail him, see that he does not bail out, take him to trial, testify against him, prove the case to get him convicted, and see him imprisoned and cataloged into the data base of known sex offenders, a la Megan's Law in California.

To name rawat in the trial as a codefendent is an option, although he is not the sex offender of abi and susan. that part of the action may be thrown out.

there can be a criminal trial against jagdeo and a civil trial against jagdeo and rawat. two separate actions in two separate arenas, with different standards of proof and culpability. Rawat would likely have to stand for the civil trial. As CEO and de facto leader of EV and all his mahatmas and followers, he would remain responsible and culpable for jagdeo's acts, especially since we have our own evidence here to present from the victims, the community and the IHQ office that Rawat and Judy Osborne and Randy Prouty and Chanrnanand all were told and relayed messages and got back to the victims years ago to the effect that maharaji knew and was relieved that it was not a new incident, and assigned watchers to shadow and monitor jagdeo as supposed safeguard to any new episodes.

Looking to maharaji and elan vital to bring justice is not possible. they have no grounds on which to prosecute. they can do no more than a hospital or a medical board can to prevent a bad doctor from practicing. in reality what happens is that such a hspital privately censures the offender, then writes a glowing letter of recommendation to another place and send the guy down the road, glad to be rid of him in their area or even their state. and the guy goes on to perpetrate the same crimes on others in the new place.

i followed up on the discusion to get in touch with interpol, after the subject surfaced in a thread here the other day. the trail has to begin with reporting jagdeo to law enforcement somewhere, in order for him to be entered into the system. the more countries he is reported in, the more it becomes a motter for interpol to pursue. law enforcement is the only aencyn the world that has the power to take jagdeo into locked longterm penitentiary custody in order to keep him from children ever again.
maharaji doesnt have that power. elan vital doesnt have that power.
if we sit around wringing our hands and passively hoping and wishing and waiting, nothing substantial will ever happen to get him away from children.

Short of natural death or a sniper, the agent to engage with to ensure his removal from society is law enforcement. and only the victim(s) have the right to bring such action.

As someone in the legal system explained to me, if the one who was wronged does not bring a complaint, and the complaint does not get brought in front of the law, the judge cannot rule on it. The system can only act on what you bring before it. That means both the police and the court. It begins with the one who was wronged, reporting, making a complaint, and a demand for justice to be done, and making it to those who have the societal power by law to do it. The complainant also has to committ to staying in cooperation to the end of the pursuit. if the complainant drops it/out, the pursuit dies.

maharaji doesnt have that power or that right. neither does elan vital.
so hoping they will 'deal with it', somehow, is a mistake in hope and attention, and a valuable waste of time, during which jagdeo can touch all the children he wishes, wherever he goes.

here's a horrible scenario to ponder:
EV fires jagdeo. he has communities all over the world where he has been, and is still clamored for, as the venerated mahatma. he opts to go to them. he molests children there.
so the only thing left to do is to entrap him with a willing child and a sting, to catch him in the act and bust him red handed.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:15:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: According to previous posts
Message:

this sicko has already been reported to police. Check with Anth, he knows the whole story

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