Susan -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 16:54:48 (GMT)

__ bill--how the hell could -:- anyone not remember that subject matter...nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:38:24 (GMT)

__ Kelly -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:13:56 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- thanks I just sent you a bunch too! (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:56:00 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Help us all understand a bit more, Susan -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:22:40 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- Help us all understand a bit more, Susan -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:52:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Susan - forgetting stuff -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:03:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks but I must have been unclear, sorry -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 00:57:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks but I must have been unclear, sorry -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:44:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Who asked you anyway? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:49:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Who asked you anyway? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:18:31 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Susan, Jim's post worth responding to -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:51:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- I am absolutely going to respond ! -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:56:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Ok, here's another question -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:47:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Ok, here's another question -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:07:37 (GMT)

__ Rick -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:28:43 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:42:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Rick -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:55:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:59:41 (GMT)

__ FOMF -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:09:36 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Why are you apologising? - for Jagdeo's abuse? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:39:40 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- jagdeo's predilictions -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:12:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Janet, did you really hear? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:04:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- jagdeo's predilictions -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:45:00 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- another article to read -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:22:43 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- One question though -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:20:00 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- more -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:43:20 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- Thank you FOMF I appreciate your support (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:08:51 (GMT)

__ __ David -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 19:00:45 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:55:51 (GMT)

__ __ Joy -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:53:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:08:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ FOMF -:- Answers, such as they are -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:38:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ David -:- Answers, such as they are -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:20:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- your answers trouble me greatly. -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:45:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- your answers trouble me greatly - to Janet -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:44:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- i am on webtv. not a pc. ican shift. i get u/ -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:45:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sadly, I concur -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:14:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill--christ, it's easy -:- and false to LOVE someone from a distance fomf..nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:48:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA -- please let bill post full messages again (nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:13:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill--ok, but I know you -:- just want to be able to avoid my drivel......(nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:02:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Bill, we want all your drivel, honest :) (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:07:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ bill-fomf, when it is all -:- illusion anyway, why NOT play pretend right?....nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:57:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Answers, such as they are -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 00:32:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, exactly, Abi! FOMF, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:18:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ FoMF (or whatever) -:- Yes, exactly, Abi! FOMF, WHAT DO YOU MEAN? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:45:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Could you be thinking of Parlokanand? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:27:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ab -:- Thank you -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:17:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- pedophiles and choosing victims -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:06:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- FoMF, did you say 'bizarre' ? -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:35:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:22:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Answers, Just two points -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:49:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ kev -:- Answers, such as they are -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:21:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:05:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, that was my point, Joe -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:10:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ FoMF -:- Yes, that was my point, Joe -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:57:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey, you missed the point -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:02:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kev -:- but my point was -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:34:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Yes, that was my point, Joe -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:14:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- A Question, FoMF -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:12:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- And of course.... -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:16:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- have you checked your e-mail lately Jim? nt -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:19:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Recurring themes -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:19:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I've never really understood that kind of comment -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:02:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Friend of Mike -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:52:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim Sander -:- FOMF, I'd like to ask a few questions of you.... -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:11:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Great post! (same message inside Jimmie) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:06:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- That was brilliant, Jim Sanders. Thanks! NT -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:34:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wonderful questions and comments, MR. Sander -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:37:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ FoMF -:- Thanks, Friend of Mike -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:15:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Friend of Mike -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:10:27 (GMT)

__ janet -:- My phone call with Judy today -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 17:28:47 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 16:54:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Dear all,

Because of my appeal for help I recieved Judy Osborne's phone number yesterday. I debated with myself, asked the advice of other ex's, and decided last night not to call her. This morning, I woke up, and changed my mind. My feeling was that this case may never come to any sort of trial except in the court of public opinion, and that I frankly, wanted to hear what she had to say.

I was afraid. Afraid she would hang up or be hostile. She was not at all hostile, and we talked a long time.

First of all, the big question. Yes, she says she does not remember. She in no way implied it didn't happen, but she said she does not remember and it really has been hard for her, that she has tried and tried to remember something, but she doesn't. Of course, I cannot know if that is truth or not for certain, but frankly, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. Some will say I am posting against my own interest, and that is true. But this is about the truth, this isn't a game, or a holy war, this is very serious stuff, and after talking to her, I beieve it is possible that she genuinely does not remember.

We talked at length about the issues. We both were very respectful of the other. I tried not to be offensive and only used the word 'cult' once. I told her this issue, in my mind, was much more serious than premie vs ex premie, and that all people who call themselves premies should care about this as much as ex premies. I asked her if she was still 'involved' she said yes, that she felt the whole thing,( the organization ) had 'evolved'.

She asked me about the year I called her and I said 1982. She said she would have been living in the Ashram in Miami at that time. She said it is possible ( though she said she was only speculating ) that she relayed the Jagdeo information through a third party, she said her access to Rawat that year was not such that she could easily get a personal meeting with him. She said she wonders if that is why she doesn't remember, because she only spoke with me on the phone, and that she relayed it through a third party. She says to her, that makes more sense about why she would not remember, because she did not have a face to face talk with me, or a face to face talk with Rawat. She said one thing she is sure of is that third party would not have been Randy, as he is just not who she would have approached to relay the message.

I sensed this has all been quite painful for her. She also said that she knows this has all been quite painful for me. I said the worst pain for me was when I found out about Abi. I said that when I told Randy, and I told her, I did so because I was afraid Jagdeo might be molesting kids all over the world. But when I found out about Abi, I knew it was true, and I became very angry that nothing seemed to have been done, despite my two reports.

She said in her experience M was very quick to get rid of ( as in making them not mahatmas anymore ) any mahatma who did something serious like this. She said that has made her question this whole thing. I said I too, and Michael Dettmers, and a lot of people, knew of instances in which Rawat got rid of mahatmas who were doing less serious things. I said I have no expanation, other than that I am telling the truth, and I wish I knew why this was handled so differently.

I urged her if my call helps her remember anything to please let me know. Maybe my voice and more details will jog her memory, I hoped.

I just want you all to know this, and most of all I want Rawat, and Randy, and Judy, and Jagdeo, and anyone else invloved, to know I will ALWAYS tell the truth about this, including the conversation I just had with Judy. I think it can only add to my credibility. I also think it can only make EV and Rawat take Abi and I more seriously.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:38:24 (GMT)
From: bill--how the hell could
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: anyone not remember that subject matter...nt
Message:

sdfh

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:13:56 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Susan
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Dear Susan,
It is very hard to make such a call out of the blue, and very brave of you to do so. Why is it proving so hard to get to the bottom of this? I know I suffer from selective memory at times but this is ridiculous.
I have sent you a few e-mails today.
Love and support
Kelly

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:56:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: thanks I just sent you a bunch too! (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:22:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Help us all understand a bit more, Susan
Message:

First of all, do you have a criminal record for crimes for any crimes of dishonesty? Are you now taking or in any way under the effects of any medication? Could I please see your last three tax returns?

.....I'm glad that you called Judy yourself. I toy with the idea of saying that was 'brave' or something. In a way it was, for sure, as you don't know her now, she well might have slammed either you or the phone. All of that would have been unpleasant, at minimum, maybe worse. So, yeah, that was brave. Good work, oh brave one.

So what do we have here? Judy impresses you with her apparent sincerity but says she just can't remember. Could you tell us more of the context in which you called her in '82? That would help us all understand how reasonable her memory lapse might be. For example, why her? Did you know her at all? How? What was your understanding of her own 'access' back then? What is your own best recollection of the discussion? Did you have to prepare yourself in any way to make the call or did you do it spontaneously? Who gave you the number? Was there any tie-in or relevance to that person's involvement or knowledge? In other words, did you tell them first in order to even get Judy's number, that kind of thing? Were they friends with her? Any chance they debriefed with her as well after you called?

Just to be clear -- cause I was joking a bit up top -- I have absolutely no question that you're both sincere and accurate. I've got lots of reasons for thinking that, only some of which relate to my knowledge of you, such as it is. So, for me, the benchmark is your testimony.

So back to the questions. Judy told you then that she was relieved or, more accuratley, that Maharaji was relieved to know it wasn't anything different that the complaint he'd already received earlier. We know that because you remember it. So surely it sounds as if therre were not one but two phone calls? One where you first told her and the second when she got back to you with the 'good news' that this wasn't a new report?

Did Judy say that she'd ever before been called upon to intercede on some premies' behalf with that issue? How about other issues? How often, if at all, did she ever act as an attempted conduit like that?

Here's what gets me most. Judy now says that she likely relayed the information through a thrd party. So does she also speculate that that same third party got back to her with an answer? Then what? She called you back? That's four calls now that she can't remember, not to mention all the waiting time. Hm, I dunno....

Also, don't forget, Judy impressed upon you how certain she was of the answer she ultimately gave you. Was it YOUR impression that she'd gotten it straight from the horse's mouth? Your recollection matters most because a) you have one and b) you would have cared. Your antennae would have been out, looking for solid assurance. What do you remember about this so-called third party?

Also, how did you and Judy leave it? Was she going to think about this some more? Talk with anyone else who might have been around her then? Does she have a shortor long list of possible 'third parties' to look up and ask about this? Does she have any interest, in short, in getting to the bottom of this? Most importantly, does she agree that there's some obvious ramifications, none of them good for him, if Maharaji did indeed acnowledge that he knew about J, then, when Judy did whatever she did and especially earlier, when Randy did? Did she say anything about what she'd LIKE the truth to be?

Finally, did Judy say anything about when and how any of this came to her attention? Has she seen the page at all? Did EV contact her? Did PROUTY? When? How? Why?

Did Judy say that she'd been advised, instructed, encouraged, etc. in any respect about any of this? Did she deny that anything of the sort has ever happened? What'd she say about the fact that EV claims to have investigated these allegations, yet her name's been publically entwined in the story ever since you spoke up. Did EV contact her or not? What doe she say about any of this?

Sorry for all the questions. Please answer each one thoroughly. Give it its own thread, if need be. TYake your time. Don't be a looser.

Really, way to go!

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:52:57 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Help us all understand a bit more, Susan
Message:

Could you tell us more of the context in which you called her in '82?

Yes. I had watched I think Phil Donahue and it was a show about pedophiles. What I recall most was the 'they never get better' really bothering me. Recall since I had reported it to Randy I had seen Jagdeo at festivals. I wondered if Randy had downplayed the seriousness of what I had told him or had lied about telling Rawat. I thought I would tell again.

I called Judy because she was held in high esteem by friends of mine and was Marolyn's midwife. I thought she would do something because she cared about children.

I do not know how I got a hold of her but I toldher about it on the phone. She took me seriously, and said she would tell 'maraji' and get back to me. She did, about two weeks later. As best I recall she said she talked to him, he had heard about this incident before, and was glad it was not a new incident. Sort of like Rawat had said, 'boy, good, at least he is not at it AGAIN'. That was my impression.

 

That would help us all understand how reasonable her memory lapse might be.

I do not find her memory lapse reasonable really, but I do not know her, I do not know if she has a sharp memory.

For example, why her? Did you know her at all? How?

I asnwered that above I hope.


What was your understanding of her own 'access' back then?

Well, I thought as Marolyn's midwfe she would have unlimited access, like a member of the family, I mean, delivering her babies is a big deal. But she said today it wasn't like that.

What is your own best recollection of the discussion? Did you have to prepare yourself in any way to make the call or did you do it spontaneously?

I saw her name and her husbands name as donors to a child abuse prevention organization. It gave me a ray of hope that maybe they were just saying she did not remember and that my call would 'call the bluff'. It was fairly spontaneous, I had no writenn list of questions or anything.

 

Who gave you the number?

A forum reader. I do not know if he or she wants to be open about that.


Was there any tie-in or relevance to that person's involvement or knowledge?

No.


In other words, did you tell them first in order to even get Judy's number, that kind of thing? Were they friends with her? Any chance they debriefed with her as well after you called?

I doubt it. I think she thought I was a premie, calling about Jagdeo AGAIN. I really got the impression she didn't know I was even an ex for a bit. I do not think she was debriefed. But I have been fooled before. Just my impression.


So back to the questions. Judy told you then that she was relieved or, more accuratley, that Maharaji was relieved to know it wasn't anything different that the complaint he'd already received earlier. We know that because you remember it. So surely it sounds as if therre were not one but two phone calls?

Yes, definitely two phone calls at least.

One where you first told her and the second when she got back to you with the 'good news' that this wasn't a new report?

I think actually, she was a little ashamed about the 'good news', I think she knew I would be upset that nothing further was going to be done. At least that I would know about.

Did Judy say that she'd ever before been called upon to intercede on some premies' behalf with that issue? How about other issues? How often, if at all, did she ever act as an attempted conduit like that?

Yes, she said this happened a lot, premies calling her to get messages to Rawat. She thought maybe that is how she could have forgotten.

Here's what gets me most. Judy now says that she likely relayed the information through a thrd party. So does she also speculate that that same third party got back to her with an answer? Then what? She called you back? That's four calls now that she can't remember, not to mention all the waiting time. Hm, I dunno....

You know Jim, I too think it sounds implausible. But, her tone of voice and my impression of her were not one of a person with a really strong will. I could be all wrong. But I think it is possible, maybe not even probable, that she is telling the truth. That is what I came away feeling. It does sound ridiculous, I know I would remember.


Also, don't forget, Judy impressed upon you how certain she was of the answer she ultimately gave you. Was it YOUR impression that she'd gotten it straight from the horse's mouth?

yes, I thought she had had a direct conversation with Miragey. Perhaps, she fibbed on that? Said it was direct but it wasn't? She seemed to imply that was possible today in her speculation.

 

Your recollection matters most because a) you have one and b) you would have cared. Your antennae would have been out, looking for solid assurance. What do you remember about this so-called third party?

Nothing. I was NOT told of a third party. Of that I am sure.

Also, how did you and Judy leave it?

I asked her to let me know if she ever remembers anything. But I did not give her my number. I should have. Nothing to lose there.

Was she going to think about this some more?

I thought the conversation upset her a lot, and frankly I thought she might cry. I am sure she is thinking about it, and probably talking about it to EV.

 


Talk with anyone else who might have been around her then?

No promisies of that.

Does she have a shortor long list of possible 'third parties' to look up and ask about this?

Well, I think this, Premlata was born in 75, Hansi 76-77, Daya 79 or so...and Amar a few years later right. What third party would she have had access to? Hmmm.

 

Does she have any interest, in short, in getting to the bottom of this?

I think she is pretty fragile actually.

 

Most importantly, does she agree that there's some obvious ramifications, none of them good for him, if Maharaji did indeed acnowledge that he knew about J, then, when Judy did whatever she did and especially earlier, when Randy did? Did she say anything about what she'd LIKE the truth to be?

No.


Finally, did Judy say anything about when and how any of this came to her attention? Has she seen the page at all? Did EV contact her? Did PROUTY? When? How? Why?

No but it was implied they had contacted her.

Did Judy say that she'd been advised, instructed, encouraged, etc. in any respect about any of this?

no.

Did she deny that anything of the sort has ever happened?

no, she did not. I thought that was interesting.

What'd she say about the fact that EV claims to have investigated these allegations, yet her name's been publically entwined in the story ever since you spoke up. Did EV contact her or not? What doe she say about any of this?

That wasn't really discussed

Don't be a looser.

Really, way to go!

Thanks, I will answer more if you hae them.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:03:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan - forgetting stuff
Message:

Hi Susan -
This is not meant to defend or attack Judy - I just thought I'd share it. I have a REALLY good memory - I can remember stuff from before I was two, and my brother and sister have the same kind of memory that I do. We all, however, have 'forgotten' things when they didn't fit in with our current version of reality, or when they were too traumatic to recall. The best example I can think of is the time I found the Maharaji video on the lab bench at work several years ago. I just BLANKED it - I did recall it later that evening, but it was so weird, and so out of place - and something that I did not want to think about - that I didn't even really 'remember'.

My brother and sister have 'forgotten' things that my dad and mom did to them (and I probably have too). It's weird, because we remember the stuff happening to each other, but can't remember when it happened to us. My sister once had a huge memory breakthrough in therapy - and when she told me what it was - I told her that I could have told her that all along - I had remembered when she told me about the thing she had forgotten. My brother cannot remember a lot of things that were done to him as a teenager - he trusts my sister and I when we tell him that those things did happen - but he does not remember. I have been 'reminded' of things by my sister that I can't really remember happening - it is like I see them through a dense fog.

Anyway, the point of all this is that it sounds like Judy's memory is being jogged by what you said. I can believe that she 'blanked' what happened originally (although I am not saying that is what happened) - it might have been something that she didn't want to remember, and that did not fit in with her version of reality.

Just a thought -
Love to you,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 00:57:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thanks but I must have been unclear, sorry
Message:

Susan,

I wasn't clear about which calls, today's or '82's, I was referring to, I guess. When I asked you about getting her number and all that, it was regarding time one, not two. But then you already answered my questions anyway.

Wow, huh? I'm sorry too about suspecting that Judy's fragility might be more a function of her nervousness in having to lie to you now than anything else.

Susan, I think you really should call her back, at least once. For one thing, you didn't give her your number and, really, you should. After all, she can't be expected to come here if she wants to find you for some reason. If she's sincere, your call surprised her, I guess, and jogged her memory a bit. Maybe she'll recall more in her next meditation. Moreover, you'll likely get a better read on her sincerity just by how she receives you a second time. But another reason to bother her again is to find out more about what she's been told recently, during time two.

She knows that you expected her to have remembered everything. If she's sincere she must feel that, although unintentionally, she's let you down here. By coincidence, though, she's really given a nice tidbit of support to the guy who just happenes to be her lifetime cult leader. If she's sincere, she's wrestling with that and won't mind admitting the fact. In other words, she herself must see that her failing memory is a wonderful coincidence for the House of Rawat.

So I think you've got at least one call left with her. You deserve to know everything EV's said and done with her regarding this. If she won't tell you, her credibility's out the window.

Personally, as I've thought about this harder, I can't imagine that she just doesn't remember. Did she not revere Jagdeo just like the rest of us? Your report would have been shocking. Then, the confirmation she got that Maharaji already knew would have been likewise shocking. She'd have told others, if she's like the rest of us human beings, people she trusted. She would not have forgotten.

I called you this aft but some guy answered. :)

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:44:17 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks but I must have been unclear, sorry
Message:

In other words, she herself must see that her failing memory is a wonderful coincidence for the House of Rawat.

If she's thinking of it in that manner. What I think is that Susan's dilemna might just be one of many that Judy's aware of, and she places no special significance on it. Susan, herself, mentioned that Judy had said she was always being approached by premies to get word to Maharaji. Maybe Susan should ask Judy what kinds of things other premies wanted her to be a mediator for. Were they similar in vein to Susan's concerns, or were they just the usual premie inanities, 'Tell M I love him', stuff like that? Maybe Judy was getting bombarded by a flood of complaints about improprieties, and she just brushed Susan's out of her mind along with the rest of them.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:49:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Who asked you anyway?
Message:

No, you're right, Jer. It's possible that, believe it or not, Susan's complaint just fell on a pile of reports of abuse and broken hearts or worse. On the other hand, is it likely? Don't forget, we're talking four phone calls minimum, or four discussions of Judy's anyway: Susan to Judy, Judy to either M or third party, M or third party back to Judy and Judy back to Susan. You've got to smoke a lot of dope to cover a trail that wide.

By the way, where's that $50 I lent you?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:18:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who asked you anyway?
Message:

It's still worth asking, Jim, just to get an idea of what kind of requests premies were submitting. As for the $50.00, I never got it. Send it again.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:51:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Susan, Jim's post worth responding to
Message:

Susan,

Jim's post is a bit confrontational but he makes good points and I would also be interested in the answers to his questions (apart from the first paragraph!:-))

We like to trust, but, even if Judy is sincere about her memory, there are many other issues that Jim raises where she might not be sincere.

BTW, well done in phoning her.

John.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:56:17 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I am absolutely going to respond !
Message:

Feel free to ask questions, I think they are good questions too.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:47:17 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Ok, here's another question
Message:

Susan,

I have reread your original postings in this matter.

It seems impossible to me that Judy could have forgotten this episode. It seems that she would remember having to inform Maharaji about something so disgusting about one of his mahatmas. But you now seem to think that Judy may have honestly forgotten.

The only way I can imagine Judy forgetting the episode is if the problem at the time seemed to her to be minor. Did you tell her all the details in 1982? I know that Jagdeo's abuse of Abi was more intense. How did Judy react at the time of your two calls in 1982? Did she seem horrified, or just slightly concerned and maybe even distrustful of you?

In any case, there is obviously a big problem here. Judy, Randy, and Charnanand all failed to do the right thing. And since Jagdeo's proclivities were evidently known by many other premies as well, there is obviously a whole lot of behind the scenes information that we don't know about.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:07:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Ok, here's another question
Message:


It seems impossible to me that Judy could have forgotten this episode. It seems that she would remember having to inform Maharaji about something so disgusting about one of his mahatmas. But you now seem to think that Judy may have honestly forgotten.

Yes, I have always thought it was impossible. But talking to her, her tone of voice, and the phone impression of her as a person....she didn't sound like a liar, she didn't sound cunning. But, I still think it is also possible she is lying. I just am not sure she is, as I felt before this call.


The only way I can imagine Judy forgetting the episode is if the problem at the time seemed to her to be minor. Did you tell her all the details in 1982?

Yes, I did, and no, it would NOT have sounded minor.


I know that Jagdeo's abuse of Abi was more intense.

Yes, but I told her details, in 82, of another persons more serious abuse that I can't post on the forum without that person's permission.

How did Judy react at the time of your two calls in 1982? Did she seem horrified, or just slightly concerned and maybe even distrustful of you?

She seemed concerned, very concerned. Distrustful, well, I did tell her I was no longer a premie, so that could have made her distrustful, but she did not sound distrustful not at all.

In any case, there is obviously a big problem here. Judy, Randy, and Charnanand all failed to do the right thing.

I think Judy and Randy did tell Rawat. Charnanand I do not know. Perhaps one of the meditation techniques interferes with memory. Sarcasm intended.


And since Jagdeo's proclivities were evidently known by many other premies as well, there is obviously a whole lot of behind the scenes information that we don't know about.

YES. I think there are reports we on this board have never heard about, and EV would like us to never hear about.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:28:43 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

I don't get it. How could someone forget something like that? Mindboggling.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:42:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Rick
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Hi Rick:

BTW, if you want to know about the EPO get-together in San Francisco that I mentioned to you, please email me. Being the disorganized person that I am, I lost your email address.

Regarding forgetting something like that, I also believe that Judy truly believes she doesn't remember. But I know for me, if someone asked me if I remembered being told something like that, and I had no recollection, I would say it didn't happen, because I would be SURE that if someone told me something that awful, I would remember it. Maybe I wouldn't remember all the details, and maybe I wouldn't remember who I told about it, etc., but I would be SURE I would have remembered that IT HAPPENED.

That's what is interesting about what Judy is saying. She isn't saying it didn't happen, she is saying she can't remember, and maybe even questioning her own memory. That's quite a different thing.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:55:16 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Hi Joe,
I'm going to email you when I finish writing this.

I don't understand why you believe Judy believes she doesn't remember it. That's confusing to me in itself. I don't 'believe' I don't remember something. I either remember it or I don't.

But if you're saying it's incomprehensible to you to forget something like that, and because of that, you'd say it never happened, the why isn't Judy saying 'it didn't happen'.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:59:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Rick,

I'm saying Judy 'believes' she doesn't remember it, and the fact that she is questioning her memory, rather than whether or not it really happened, is telling in that regard.

There are all kinds of blocks to memory, one of which can be that it's just too disconcerting to let it get through. I'm just saying it might be possible to repress a memory and not know you are doing it. And that might be offset with some kind of a nagging feeling that it may well be true, so that Judy just questions her memory, instead of Susan's sincerity.

On the other hand, she might just be lying, only she knows.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:09:36 (GMT)
From: FOMF
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Dear Susan (and Abi),

I am a current practicing premie. The purpose of this e-mail is say a couple of things:

1 - I am very sorry for any pain that you experienced as a result of this situation. I am aware that no apology will undo the damage that was done to you, nonetheless, I need to say it. No child deserves to be abused, and no human deserves to have their childhood taken away from them in such a horrific manner.

2 - I have heard from many different people that Judy truly does not remember your conversation. Judy is an honorable and trustworthy person. I believe her.

3 - I agree with Judy. It makes no sense that M would've let Jagdeo stay in his position. He removed lots of Mahatmas who had done lesser things - groping grownups, consensual sex....they all got sent back to India.

4 - I've talked about this a lot, and I seem to be one of the few people who even remembers hearing rumors about Jagdeo's 'predelictions' back then. Oddly enough, I can't even remember who told me about it. Other people I know have asked former unity school students and their parents, and like me, they might remember a vague rumor, but no one seems to have a conscious remembrance of who/what/when/how or where. Wherever the hell my head was at, it just didn't make a strong impact on me. Shame on me.

4 - I want you to know that I am attempting to verify whether or not Jagdeo is, in fact, still 'out there' on behalf of EV or anyone else. Because if he is, that's a really big problem that must be fixed immediately. And I will do my best to find out.

I'm not posting here to defend or decry anyone's position on M, his teachings, his lifestyle or anything else. Just to let you know that many people do care about what happened to you. It was unconscionable (sp?).

All the best,
FoMF (just wanting to abide by the rules, and only post under one name)

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:39:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Why are you apologising? - for Jagdeo's abuse?
Message:

dfghdg

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:12:32 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: jagdeo's predilictions
Message:

i too remember the rumors coming round, in denver, and the impact of jagdeo doing such lewd things to the premie children was just so hideous, i think most premies tried to get away from the vibe of thinking about it as fast as their folded little tongues and third eyes could carry them.
consider the multiple layers of whammy against it:
it was prurient--'impure thoughts'
it was chit-chat--'not most holy satsang'
it was not peacefull and meditative
it was disturbing and distressfull
it was hideous news about a high mahatma, a grey eminence with university degrees, and unspeakable acts committed on the tenderest of our premie world.
if you were obsessing on it, you couldn't possibly be 'in holy name'
and everything beneath Holy Name was maya.

but yes, i remember the news getting around.

but like you, i cant for the life of me remember who i heard it from, or how. and just our everyday cultspeak to one another was quite enough to pop any conversational or cerebral bubbles dwelling on it and get sent scurrying back to 'being in holy name'.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:04:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet, did you really hear?
Message:

Not doubting your word, but I never heard ANYTHING about this in DC - nor about any of the other mahatmas. Joe Whalen never heard anything about it after being the CC in at least three different cities, including Miami, although he did know about Parlokanand. This is just SO weird that people were talking about this in Denver! (Especially since several people have come on this forum and said that Abi and Susan 'made it up' or 'imagined' it!)

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 01:45:00 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: jagdeo's predilictions
Message:

Oh God. How many knew? How many of you knew?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:22:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: another article to read
Message:

I think we should consider a permanent link to this one. This is the best explanation of how a pedophile seduces his victims I have ever read.

Sport Illustrated article

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:20:00 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: One question though
Message:

Dear FOMF,

I don't doubt your good intentions and your good will for a second. I don't doubt you are in some 'position of power' in m's organization, and you may be able to do something about this issue.

But I have a question: how come you've been waiting that long to do something about Jagdeo ?

Are you going to wait that long too to investigate the Sampuranand/prostitution ring issue in India ? Are you thinking about the present victims ? Or shall you wait another couple of years before our investigations come to conclusions and bring more testimonies, when YOU have every mean to investigate it yourself ?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:43:20 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: more
Message:

Dear FOMF,

Jim and Abi have asked for more details about

've talked about this a lot, and I seem to be one of the few people who even remembers hearing rumors about Jagdeo's 'predelictions' back then.'

You are not the only one who has reported hearing rumors about Jagdeo back then. If you ever do recall the source please post again. And thank you for pledging to do what you can to see Jagdeo is stopped now. That is priority number 1.

We were in a very wierd environment back then and the beliefs we had often required the suspension of logic. Perhaps that is how premies could hear rumors about Jagdeo and not grok ( to use a 70s word ) the signifigance of it. I respect so much you are questioning yourself as to how you could have not seen how serious it was. You obviously have a soul and a conscience.

Hear me out, but I think being a premie, then, and now, requires one to still 'surrender' logical thought. There is such obvious contradiction, everywhere. His wealth, the x rating, the website that says he never claimed to be God, tremendous hypocrisry. Most of all, his complete stonewalling about the reality of his past and his responsibility in encouraging and allowing premies to beleive he was the messiah, perfect master, god, 'superior power in person'.....he blames the mahatmas? They weren't sitting on the stage getting rich. And he blames DLM/EV and not himself???? Give us all a collective break please Prem Pal Singh Rawat, no one, at any time, had more power to control DLM or EV than he did, and what kind of fool would see him as a victim of DLM/EV and not the other way around. A cult member kind of fool I suggest. A person who has lost the capacity to think for themselves and who is UNABLE to make a moral judgement about his or her master. Is it any wonder premies could have heard about Jagdeo back then and just walked on by....we were well versed in accepting contradiction. Never leave room for doubt in your mind.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:08:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Thank you FOMF I appreciate your support (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 19:00:45 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

DearFOMF,

It is hearting to heard from an active premie on this forum. I have come to this sites looking for answers regarding the world of premies, because my wife has been one for twenty five years. I was an aspirant for two years, and I am now totally turned off.

What first turned me off was the evasiveness with which my wife and her premie friends answered my questions regarding the EV organization, M's wealth, M's personality, and other questions a person might ask before accepting someone as their master. Eventually, I found this web site.

Can you be honest with me?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:55:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Thanks FOMF (does that stand for something, by the way?)

I know Anth mentioned some premies in M's organization who said they knew about Jagdeo's 'problem' back in the 80s, and that it was discussed at conferences. But I'm not sure how late into the 80s that was.

I think the main reason that people didn't know about it, was that Jagdeo was apparently very good at keeping it all secret. He seems to have gained the trust of a lot of adults, and being that he was a Mahatma, most of us as premies would not have suspected him. And he did those 'children's satsangs' apparently, from other reports, both in the UK and at Unity School in Denver. The kids knew that Jagdeo was revered by their parents and they were not predisposed to believe anything negative about him. Plus, it appears he may have threatened the kids if they told on him. Plus, the belief in the organization was that Maharaji would take care of each of us individually. I know I took that literally even as an adult, and I'm sure kids, who tend to take things even more literally, believed it too. Reporting something like that would demonstrate lack of faith in Maharaji's care and love. Note that both Susan and Abi were adults, and no longer premies, before they reported it.

So, it isn't surprising that very few people knew about it when it was happening. I'm with you, though, that I'm really afraid this has continued for decades, as pedophiles are notorious for continuing if they can, and don't even respond well to treatment. In fact, they think what they are doing is good for the kids. It really is that sick.

It's also possible that M or others accused Jagdeo and he denied it, and since there wasn't any eye-witness proof, they may have given him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure he could be very convincing and feigning sincerity and shock. Apparently, from Kelly's discussions with Deepak, he is continuing to deny it, and might be doing so quite convincingly.

But thanks for letting us know that you are trying to look into Jagdeo's whereabouts. That is obviously the most important thing at the moment, completely aside of who knew what when.

One other question. Does it bother you the way Elan Vital and Maharaji have handled this issue in the past 2 years? There appears to have been no attempt to contact the victims, make any kind of effort to see if there were other victims (which anyone will tell you there are undoubtedly are), no attempt to do anything about Jagdeo except to give him a chance to deny it, no direct apology to the victims, in fact no statement by Maharaji whatsoever, false and misleading statments and letters from Glen Whittaker, a self-serving and false statement on the Elan Vital website (which as now been removed), and accusations against Anth and the victims questioning their honesty. Doesn't that bother you? Are you looking into that situation as well? Have you asked Elan Vital or Maharaji about that?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:53:43 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

Thanks, FoMF, for your interest in this. You sound like a really good peson.

For what it's worth, I didn't know Judy much, but I do remember her as a very sweet, kind person and I'm sure one of much integrity, also. And I believe she's married to somebody I used to live in a premie house with for awhile, Barry, who was a really great person. If that's still the case and you know him, please do say hello to him for me.

I had a bad dream last night about all this, that I had to interview Mahatma Jagdeo on behalf of EPO, all alone in a blank room, and I didn't know enough of the facts to ask the proper questions. I do hope this all comes to the proper conclusion, and if the allegations against Jagdeo are true, that he comes to the justice he deserves (jail). Thanks for doing your part to get to the bottom of the matter, and help that come about. I agree wholeheartedly with Susan that this is not an 'ex' issue only, and that premies (and Maharaji) should be as concerned about this as we are.

--Joy

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:08:06 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

I had a dream about this last night, too. In the dream I was confronting Judy, whom I knew a bit, and also found (back then) to be kind and trustworthy. I woke up and got out of bed with a letter I was going to post 'AN OPEN LETTER TO JUDY OSBORNE' all written in my head, came to the forum, and was surprised to see how fast things are moving. I don't know quite what to do with the information that she doesn't 'remember.' I did resonate with someone posting above who said that they, too,knew about it, but couldn't remember where they heard it. It was common knowledge in the premie world I lived in (at the level of well-known gossip). And to think I knew you when you were not so many years out of this nightmare! Wish I coulda helped back then.

Susan, all power to you and Abi. Any support, letter, or anything I could give, just let me know.

love Katie D

love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:38:43 (GMT)
From: FOMF
Email: None
To: David, Joe, etc
Subject: Answers, such as they are
Message:

1) FomF stands for Friend of Mike Finch...I posted here once before when Mike was ill and asked me to let the forum know about this.

2) You say 'What first turned me off was the evasiveness with which my wife and her premie friends answered my questions regarding the EV organization, M's wealth, M's personality, and other questions a person might ask before accepting someone as their master...Can you be honest with me?' I can be honest. Here is my honest answer which likely will be challenged, but - what the hey - its honest: a) I dont much care about M's lifestyle as long as I dont support it financially. I dont think I want him judging mine either. b) His personality? He's charming, amazingly charismatic, controlling, stubborn, funny, creative. I love the guy. I dont think he's perfect. But I do love him. Alot. c) I do try and imagine what it was like for him growing up as he did. On the whole, it had to be totally freaky. As I reflect on his early days here, I think our innocent fervor did damage to him and to us. d) The EV organization tries very hard to do things right. Too hard, four hard, six hard. Its dysfunctional, and everyone knows it. You will hear no argument from most thoughtful people on that subject.

3) Does it bother you the way Elan Vital and Maharaji have handled this issue in the past 2 years? I don't know how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I know the 'faqs' are an embarrassment. Having said that, I'm not sure anything EV did would satisfy people here, whose primary goal is to see M drawn and quartered. I'm not about to play into anyone's hand on the subject either. What's most important is for Abi and Susan to get closure somehow. You know what? What bothers me the most is that when I heard about this, maybe 15+ years ago, it didn't even register. I just sort of tucked it away. That sucks big time. Like many premies, or thoughtful people, I guess, I'm most concerned about my own foibles. I'm embarrassed - hence, my apology. What f'ing unconsciousness!

One more thing - you take someone as a 'master' because they can teach you something. I received K before I ever met M. I enjoyed K before I ever met him. The arrangement (for want of a better word) has taught me a lot. It has facilitated a lot for me. I don't think its a moral failing that I can separate that from M's personality, lifestyle and personal issues. I do clearly understand that people think it is. So be it.

That's it.
FoMF (and lots of others)

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:20:26 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Answers, such as they are
Message:

Dear FOMF,

Certainly you have answered my questions honestly. It seems as though you try to take what is good and dis-associate yourself from what is bad. You do this because you feel the net benefit for you is positve.

I agree with you that many premies work hard to do the right things
within the organization. I wish that all premies could stand up and say that M's lifestyle is wrong. If they could just openly admit that he is a meditation teacher and nothing more, it would be healthy for all premies. If they could question $880 dollar admission fees, this would be healthy too.

Most premies I know are great people, and you seems no less. Thank you for your response.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 12:45:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: your answers trouble me greatly.
Message:

I may not be able to completely articulate what I am trying to get at, here, but I found I couldn't just shrug and move on to the next thread. so I mean to attempt to stay and try to say what is bothering me about your answers.

you wrote:
You say 'What first turned me off was the evasiveness with which my wife and her premie friends answered my questions regarding the EV organization, M's wealth, M's personality, and other questions a person might ask before accepting someone as their master...Can you be honest with me?'
I can be honest.
Here is my honest answer which likely will be challenged, but - what the hey - its honest:

'a) I dont much care about M's lifestyle as long as I dont support it financially.'

by advocating for him, and what he is doing, in any form, you are supporting him. by siding with him, by endorsing him, by identifying yourself as someone who looks to him as your Master, you are complicit in whatever he does.

' I dont think I want him judging mine either.'
this is reprehensible. this reeks of 'don't ask, don't tell'. this is not friendship and support, and this is not being 'noble and nonjudgemental'. this is corruption. a true friend does not support another in alcoholism, or in their infidelity to their spouse, or in perpetrating a deception on others. this smacks of the sort of collusion and mutual degradation that alcoholics and addicts reinforce in one another. two winos in the gutter, sharing a bottle. two junkies in an abandoned building, tying each other off and shooting up. two politicians, each of whom knows the other's darkest secret, stumping for each other's campaigns.
that's not true friendship. and its not true support or endorsement, either. thats mutual corruption. the first is corrupt, and by going along with it and saying nothing to stop it, the second becomes corrupt too.
a true friend won't go along with it. A true friend will call it what it is. a true friend will advocate the good, the right, the straight.


b) His personality? He's charming, amazingly charismatic, controlling, stubborn, funny, creative. I love the guy. I dont think he's perfect. But I do love him. Alot.
have you given any thought to the shock of what you call his being funny? have you ever paused a moment while everyone else is smirking at his remarks and said to yourself 'wait a minute. that isnt cool. that was rude. that was cruel. that was insulting. hold on a minute!'
In miami at a festival, he publicly humiliated a longtime devotee, whose wife had just died on him, after a long and agonizing terminal illness. the fellow stood up and in grief looked to maharaji for some explanation, something bright to grasp for. maharaji made some cruel, dismissive remarks, making fun of him in his pain. the audience laughed, right on cue.the guy went home and committed suicide in his garage by carbon monxide exhaust at the answers he got.
was this humor you had to love?
when marolyn nearly died three times in succession with her brain aneurism and strokes, when she came home, fragile from brain surgeries and unable to take any part in anything but nursing and rest, maharaji angrily told her 'don't ever do that to us again'
this is funny?

are you at all aware of the maharaji who exists off the stage? off the throne? do you know that the image you describe is only like that when he's on stage, when its showtime, and all that attention is for him? do you know that the man away from the stage is completely otherwise? a rageaholic? caustic? abusive? cannot get thru a day without his alcohol? his nicotine? his cannabis? do you know that he loves nobody? do you know that he holds the premies in contempt and disgust?cannot stand to hear the truth about anything? has everyone around him frozen in fear? since he cannot stand to hear the truth, no one dares tell him. they move in a climate of lies, pretenses, silencings, concealments, and fear of being found out and banished, replaced immediately by the next willing and covetous climber.
this is not love. this is not peace.
and this is not indicative of mastery.

d) The EV organization tries very hard to do things right. Too hard, four hard, six hard. Its dysfunctional, and everyone knows it. You will hear no argument from most thoughtful people on that subject.
maharaji is a classic alcoholic and his deadly contract of denial with EV is one of codependent abuse. they live in fear of leaving, because he has them believing they can't make a life without him. so they believe his wrath when he is not pleased, and they believe it is all their fault, and he is never satisfied, because addiction is insatiable. they can never be functional as long as they are listening to him. they are enabling him to continue without any consequences. it is unwinnable.

3) Does it bother you the way Elan Vital and Maharaji have handled this issue in the past 2 years?

I don't know how I feel about it, to tell you the truth.

' I know the 'faqs' are an embarrassment.'
For just this moment, let us forget about we, the 'ex=premies' and focus on you, the premies. You have already said that you are conviced that nthing will satisfy us. OK. Then forget us right now. What about you? If the FAQ's are an embarassment to most premies, then why don't you all say so? Why don't you tell them so? Why haven't you all gotten together and said that they are? If they are an embarrassment, then apparently you share some of Jim Sander's personal and ethical unhappiness with brnging people into this from everyday life. Apparently, you know in your soul that what is being said isn't the truth, anymore. It seems that you are acutely aware that what is being presented isn't right, doesn't say what you would want said.
This is most strange. supposedly EV is a nonprofit body of people with knowledge, that believe that the world ought to come and hear this man, this supposed Master, speak about what he knows, and what he can show them. Ostensibly, they are registered as a charity for educational purposes. Ostensibly,they organize events in their locale, rent the hall procurement, do the publicity and so on, and they 'invite' this great speaker to come and talk. The Speaker is supposed to have a separate life, independent of them, and 'accepts' their invitations
to come, of his own free will.
And yet, if EV is a charity, and a nonprofit, and is ostensibly for the purpose of educating the public, then as a charity, who does the money go to? where does it go? Does it go to helping the public? To the needy? As a nonprofit, where is the annual report to the shareholders and to the public, showing what they received in donations, and what it went for in expenditures? This is law. This is the lawful procedure. Why is that report not forthcoming to any person who wishes to see it, same as it is with any charity or nonprofit?
If EV is a collection of individuals who feel that this speaker is of such value to the world to see and hear, then why are they so afriad? If this speaker's views and gifts are so great, then why is the group most active in promoting him so dysfunctional? Does that seem to follow? Wouldn't such a great speaker affect his most dedicated advocates to be dynamic, clear, effective people? Wouldn't you think so?
And why would he have such a denigrating view of them if he agreed to come to their events and speak? If he had such a scornful opinion of them, why would he ever bother to teach them anything? And if what he has to teach is so positive and powerful and lifechanging, why are they like they are?
What kind of speaker goes on for hours, for years, about the preciousness and beauty of life, and then humiliates his closest organizers? Muzzles them and forbids them to say anything about it? Is this how a human being shows gratitude to those who make it possible for him to even have a place to speak to the world?

do you see how it doesn't fit?

'Having said that, I'm not sure anything EV did would satisfy people here, whose primary goal is to see M drawn and quartered.'
Never mind about people here. How about YOU? How about You, the Premies? How many of YOU are there? How many of him are there? How many of YOU are embarassed by the FAQ's? How many of YOU are unhappy with the state of things? How many of YOU think you're owed more gratitude than you get? YOU are the ones who make it possible for him to do what he does. YOU can demand change. YOU can raise your objections. YOU can insist on better! YOU are the poeple that make up this organization! Without YOU, he is NOTHING! Don't you realize that? YOU, the Premies, can break the spell. YOU can turn the tide! YOU can refuse to be treated like this! YOU can withold what he wants. YOU have all the power!

' You know what? What bothers me the most is that when I heard about this, maybe 15+ years ago, it didn't even register. I just sort of tucked it away. That sucks big time.'
this is powerful. this is excellent. you have not lost your core humanity. it lives in you yet. you realize right from wrong. now act on it. move on it. motivate others. this is the right course to take. don't tuck it away again. you have woke up. now stay awakened, and wake others.

'Like many premies, or thoughtful people, I guess, I'm most concerned about my own foibles.'
well, if you're going to be concerned about your own foibles, make them worthy ones, not petty ones.

' I'm embarrassed - hence, my apology. What f'ing unconsciousness!'
make that your battle cry, my friend.

'One more thing - you take someone as a 'master' because they can teach you something.'

' I received K before I ever met M. I enjoyed K before I ever met him.'
there is a problem between these two statements. they dont reconcile. you cannot take someone as a master but receive their instruction before you ever meet them. you cannot enjoy someone teaching you something before you ever meet them.
look at your own statement and see how impossible it is. look at it.
you had and enjoyed this something before ever meeting the master. you say so yourself in your own words.
so the master did not in fact teach you. He had never met you. You got it another way before you met him.

Isnt that peculiar? does that make sense in english? dont backpedal and start explaining. we all know the drill. just look at that.
suppose you had never met him? suppose his name had never reached your ears? suppose you had gotten this teaching just the same? from the same person who in fact showed it to you?
take a minute, and let it sink in.
you were TOLD by someone. you didnt meet the master and have him personally offer this! you didn't persoanlly ask him! he never met you or saw you or spoke to you! He wouldn't have known you if the two of you were alone in a room! He didn't teach you anything!
you were having this experience before you ever met him.
what does that tell you about how little connection--in fact, no connection--there is, between him, and the experience? your experience.

do you know what?
the truth is--there is none.
you told yourself there was.
someone told you there was.
and he told you there was.

but he didnt teach it to you. he didnt know you. you had this experience before you ever met him. so he had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

' The arrangement (for want of a better word) has taught me a lot.'
say that again, this time with irony. there is going to be a lot more, and i dont mean bliss, either...

' It has facilitated a lot for me.'
and what has it cost you? think about your relationships, with family. with yourself. with the world around you. with society. what have you told yourself? what have you ratonalized? what have you swept under the carpet? think about Jagdeo.
think about what you have facilitated for maharaji. do you think he --and we have already hit the realization that he didnt actually teach you or show you this--but do you think he did this for you out of the goodness of his heart and expected nothing in return? does he just give it away for free and go on? really? truly? if so, what pays for the gulfstream V? the Serenity Yacht? The malibu estate? the helicopter? Amaroo? La Tierra Del Amor? His collection of $5000 watches? Marolyn's brain surgery? Her diamonds?
ask yourself honestly what he has ever actually done for you, yourself, ever?
the truth is--
nothing.
He holds a darshan line and goes home with $250,000 in untraceable cash.
He holds receptions at malibu for contributors who can produce 6 figures. He sells off the front seats at events for contributors in the 4 figures.
Don't avert your eyes. This is the way it is. Do you really beleive and think that he would continue to do this, if the premies stopped cold? Witheld all cash and refused to be treated like this any longer?
More to the point--could he?

No. He could not.
The premies hold all the power, here. You guys really should realize it and use it. He has nothing on you. You have everything over him.

'I don't think its a moral failing that I can separate that from M's personality, lifestyle and personal issues.'
well, my friend, if you can do that, then you can make the final moral separation, and step away from the whole ignoble business.

you said it yourself-- that you already had this experience and were enjoying it, before you ever met him.
he didnt give it to you. its not his.

can i show you how strange it sounds?
if you're hungry and you find a tv dinner with a label that says 'swanson's' on it, and you follow the directions and heat it and eat it, and it sates your hunger, do you tell everyone for the rest of your life that 'swanson's taught me how to eat'?
if your friend hands you a condom and it says 'Ramses' on it and they show you how to use it, do you tell everyone forever after that 'Ramses taught me how to have sex'?
If you find a bic pen and for the first time discover you can write with it, do you tell everyone that Bic taught you how to write?

see how queer it sounds? can you spot the mistaken attribution to the brand and not to yourself?

heres a slightly more insidious analogy:
you live on an island, a simple people with your own ways. one day a ship wrecks on your coast and a man of a different skin and dress comes ashore. you are awed by his strange appearance. he brings with him many things from his ship you have never seen.
you communicate first by acting out, then over time he learns your words and you learn his.
and one day, years later, he tells you that he is going to teach you something miraculous. he teaches you all, the alphabet. you all are amazed to put pictures and shapes together. that you can write the words you say and someone else can read them. your words now can live on, away from you, in time and in plac you venerate him and his amazing gift to you.
in time he dies. youcarry on teaching your children the alphabet and the language he taught you. you believe you have something unique coming only from him. it is integral to your people and how you feel about yourselves.
and then years later, another ship comes. and another. they become regular. some of your children and grandchildren go on the ships and travel away to other lands on them. and they are shocked to discover that the alphabet is known everywhere, and it was not taught by the shipwrecked man who came to your island. they come back to you and tell you, and you cannot beleive it. family fights break out. finally your island must be evacuated. say the volcano blows and the ships take you all aboard to escape the lava. you travel with the ships to the very lands your children spoke of, and you see for yourself the same alphabet in use, everywhere, and when you ask, no one has ever heard of the man who came and taught it to you. it is taught in every school, in every home, and no one owns it. and your whole world of beleif must alter to come to grips with the fact that this profound teaching you recieved, which you thought all your life was the special property of this awesome and singular man, in fact was not his, and he was no more a master of it, than any schoolchild you meet in this new place.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:44:15 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: your answers trouble me greatly - to Janet
Message:

Dear Janet,

This is a brilliant response, and I think everyone would really benefit from it much more if you could use capitals at the beginning of sentences. You are very intelligent and articulate and I sometimes feel your posts don't carry the weight and authority that their content deserves because of the childlike appearance of the no-caps writing.

There are various programs that will insert a capital after a period. I think Word does, for example. Or you could press the shift key.

Talking of writing programs, there is one I have installed called SpellCatcher which allows me to write in shorthand and it fills out the words. It makes my writing twice as fast bec i dnt hv z tk abt t spelling as i go along. It does all kinds of other things, too, but I just checked and unfortunately starting sentences with capitals is not one of them. But Microsoft Word does this, I'm almost sure.

Mucho love, Janet

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 06:45:20 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: i am on webtv. not a pc. ican shift. i get u/
Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:14:33 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Sadly, I concur
Message:

Katie,

I think Janet has a problem with the keyboard she's using, or something like that. She explained it once before. I forget exactly what the problem is. Maybe she'll explain it again.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:48:01 (GMT)
From: bill--christ, it's easy
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: and false to LOVE someone from a distance fomf..nt
Message:

sdfh

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:13:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill--christ, it's easy
Subject: FA -- please let bill post full messages again (nt
Message:

ggggggg

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:02:37 (GMT)
From: bill--ok, but I know you
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: just want to be able to avoid my drivel......(nt
Message:

dfb

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:07:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill--ok, but I know you
Subject: No, Bill, we want all your drivel, honest :) (nt)
Message:

gggggg

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:57:51 (GMT)
From: bill-fomf, when it is all
Email: None
To: bill--christ, it's easy
Subject: illusion anyway, why NOT play pretend right?....nt
Message:

sdf

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 00:32:07 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Answers, such as they are
Message:

Dear FOMF,

could you please tell me more about how you heard about this 15 years ago. Who told you? How many other people knew? Etc.

I would really appreciate it.

Regards

Abi

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:18:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Yes, exactly, Abi! FOMF, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
Message:

What ARE you talking about, FOMF? How'd you hear, what'd you hear, etc. etc.?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:45:29 (GMT)
From: FoMF (or whatever)
Email: None
To: Jim, Abi
Subject: Yes, exactly, Abi! FOMF, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
Message:

Abi and Jim -

I swear I dont remember who I heard it from. I keep thinking I heard about it from a friend who had worked in IHQ during the mid 70's, but that can't quite be right because she was long gone (and not practicing or having much to do with any premies) by the time I heard - which I THINK was in the early 80's, but might've really been in the late 70's. We're still friends, so I asked her about it a while ago, and she didn't seem to remember it (and believe me, she is no fan of M or EV). I dunno. I've crossed paths with so many people over the past 25 years - it could've been anyone. Its sort of amazing to me that Dettmers or Donner wouldn't have heard about it...but clearly they did not. They had the access. I sure didn't. Anything I would've heard would have been second, third and fourth hand. And any of the other people I've talked to who might've had access also seem to have not heard. It doesn't make sense, but its the truth.

I am not comfortable naming names - but I will say that a former student of unity school who is the daughter of a friend of mine had the same sort of reaction. She vaguely remembers hearing rumors, but nothing was ever done to her, or in her presence, and she can't remember any more than that. I've asked several times. He must've been very selective in his choice of victims.

I think Joe is mostly right about this one. We were all in such a zone that it sort of whizzed by. It does not make me feel good to say that. As you say, in seeking consciousness, it is possible to be totally unconscious. I like to think I''ve become a bit more alert - but who knows? All I can do is my best.

Katie D seems to be the only person thusfar who says it was a common rumor. Maybe she can remember and track it back to a specific individual or source.

This is the last comment I can make on this subject, until and unless I can return with information on Jagdeo's whereabouts. I know many of you think M and EV had to know. I truly have not been able to find anyone who did. Its bizarre, but true.

Again, Susan and Abi...my deepest apologies.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:27:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FoMF (or whatever)
Subject: Could you be thinking of Parlokanand?
Message:

I know that it was common knowledge that Parlokanand was a pedophile, and that came out in the 70s, probably around 1976 or so. This really was common knowledge among premies back then.

I, for one, never heard anyting about Jagdeo until I found out about it here. It does trouble me, because well after Susan reported it, I recall Jagdeo having free reign in the Miami community, when I was community coordinator 1979-1980. Again, this was AFTER Susan had reported it, but I was not informed, and I am aware of no precautions taken in that regard.

I also recall Jagdeo touring in Chicago in 1978-1979, which was also afterl Susan reported the molestations. This is very troubling.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:17:54 (GMT)
From: Ab
Email: None
To: FoMF (or whatever)
Subject: Thank you
Message:

Dear FOMF,
thank you taking the time to reply to my questions. I understand that you are in a difficult position and that it was a long time ago. I also understand how it is that things like this are repressed.

Thank you.

Abi

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:06:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: FoMF (or whatever)
Subject: pedophiles and choosing victims
Message:

I read this, I think Jagdeo was/is classic

Pedophiles are also very adept at locating troubled or withdrawn children. This is a skill they have acquired through years of trial and error. They have come to identify what usually works and what usually doesn’t. The most common technique employed by pedophiles to obtain sex from children is the seduction method. This process is very similar to the classic boy/girl courtship. Though the child will typically be under ten years old, the pedophile will lavish gifts upon the target, take him or her to amusement parks, museums, restaurants and other places of interest. This author recalls a case in which a pedophile attempted to seduce a child who had an interest in music. The suspect escorted the boy to expensive Broadway plays like Phantom of the Opera and Miss Saigon. Afterwards, they ate in fashionable Manhattan cafes and went sightseeing. The child was just 8 years old. In another recent case, reported by the N.Y. Times (February 2, 2000), a Bronx man lured neighborhood children to his apartment with Pokemon cards and Chinese food. He then abused a number of children after giving them marijuana and screening pornographic videos. The abused children later got together and attempted to set fire to the suspect’s apartment.

If the target is a troubled child, the pedophile will comfort and sympathize with him or her. Often, over a period of time, the child will develop feelings for the offender even though he is being actively abused. The dynamics at work in this type of situation are well known to psychologists. This process of sympathizing with the offender has been called 'The Stockholm Syndrome.' It was first recognized in 1973 after a notorious bank robbery in Sweden in which the hostages taken by the suspects began to develop feelings of attachment toward their captors[2]. Children who are sexually victimized can feel the same way. This is often the case when the offender happens to be a member of the clergy or another traditional figure of trust. The event will not be reported because of the emotional attachment between offender and victim. Remember that pedophiles are masters in the manipulation of children. However, as the victim matures into adulthood, these benevolent feelings toward the abuser often dissipate and the painful truth of the abuse sets in.


[1] Sports Illustrated produced a cover story on this subject in their issue of September 13, 1999 entitled “Who’s Coaching Your Kid?
[2] America’s most famous victim of the Stockholm Syndrome may be Patty Hearst, the millionairess who was kidnapped by extremists in 1973 and later participated in a bank robbery with her kidnappers.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:35:39 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: FoMF (or whatever)
Subject: FoMF, did you say 'bizarre' ?
Message:

... Anything I would've heard would have been second, third and fourth hand. And any of the other people I've talked to who might've had access also seem to have not heard. It doesn't make sense, but its the truth.....

I know many of you think M and EV had to know. I truly have not been able to find anyone who did. Its bizarre, but true.

Perhaps those who had access or were in the know, don't want to own up to the fact that they knew or have known about it all these years. That wouldn't be so bizarre, would it? Premies wanting to protect m, I mean? What's so bizarre about that??

Susan has already posted to you that she's aware of other people who had heard about the going ons with Jagdeo. I remember also hearing about the mahatma who had molested children, although I can't recall for sure if Jagdeo was mentioned to me by name. In my case it was just a couple of years before I left the cult in 98 that I heard about it.

So it seems to me that word about this has filterd down to a fair number of premies. Maybe not alot, but certainly a good few, anyways.

And if that's the case and given everything else we know about this situation, what would be 'bizarre' in this situation, is that if M and EV did NOT know.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:22:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: FoMF (or whatever)
Subject: Thanks
Message:

But it has to make you wonder how that word was getting out, doesn't it?

Thanks for answering.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:49:11 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: FOMF
Subject: Answers, Just two points
Message:

Hi Fomf,

1) I find it really rather sickening that Rawat himself claims to hate EV and the organisation, and that his father did before him. And that he wastes no opportunity to denigrate them...and yet how can he exist without an organisation to support him?

2) I'm not here to see Rawat hung drawn and quartered. I'm a seeker after truth! Yes still, I think this is the most important thing going on here. As far as Jagdeo is concerned,we just want the truth. We want Susan and Abi's and others' stories and suffering to be acknowledged and respected. We want a proper and thorough investigation to take place, one that at least consults the victims. They haven't even done that, can you believe? we want to know where Jagdeo is now and that he is not in a position to continue to abuse. EV claims he is no longer associated with them. Is this true? We just want some answers.

Is that too much to ask? After all these years?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:21:59 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Answers, such as they are
Message:

Hi FOMF

In your post you said 'I don't know how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I know the 'faqs' are an embarrassment. Having said that, I'm not sure anything EV did would satisfy people here' well for an apology would be a good place to start and any kind of acknowledgement at all of the fact that m and EV has been harbouring a child molester for years, would be an even better start.

When will you people wake up to the real world. This is not a game you are playing this is the real thing, with real people involved.

Kev

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:05:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Also
Message:

Why do you think Elan Vital is so dysfunctional? I think Divine Light Mission, as well as Elan Vital, even when I was involved in leadership positions, was dysfunctional. It was dysfunctional because no one would question Maharaji. And Maharaji had zero management skills, no concept of the value of money or resources, and expectations of people that were completely unrealistic. He was just used to getting whatever he wanted and forget about the details. He also seemed to have no institutional memory whatsoever. Hence we were always reinventing the wheel.

Even on the local level, people were afraid to use their own creativity and critical thinking, for fear of doing it wrong. I sense the same things now at Elan Vital. They will post for the world FAQs that aren't only false, they are amateurish and almost cartoonish, and nobody will point that out because they were probably approved by Maharaji and they don't dare change them.

But I appreciate your candor about that, and I'm very relieved that there are premies who can say what you do. Have you told EV how you feel about the FAQs? I think if premies did that, they might well change, although I wouldn't count on it.

Regarding trying two and three hard, I can't say I agree with you when it comes to dealing with Jagdeo's victims, nor with dealing with being forthcoming on the complaints people have about Maharaji and the organization. Plus, in my experience with organizations, dysfunctionality really does come from the top, much as you love the guy, he definitely does have problems.

Also, telling the truth isn't something you do only when it will 'satisfy' the people who claim you are lying. One is supposed to tell the truth because that is what one is supposed to do, not just to shut up the critics. That should apply to Maharaji and Elan Vital as well. But the result would be a lot better for Maharaji and Elan Vital if they did. As it is, these things are going to dog Mahararji and Elan Vital forever, probably destroying propagation in the West. But then, I doubt my opinion counts for much with him or them.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:10:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, that was my point, Joe
Message:

Also, telling the truth isn't something you do only when it will 'satisfy' the people who claim you are lying. One is supposed to tell the truth because that is what one is supposed to do, not just to shut up the critics. That should apply to Maharaji and Elan Vital as well. But the result would be a lot better for Maharaji and Elan Vital if they did. As it is, these things are going to dog Mahararji and Elan Vital forever, probably destroying propagation in the West. But then, I doubt my opinion counts for much with him or them.

Truth seems to be just another negotiable commodity for FOMF. And he or she's asking themselves 'why bother if we can't win the game anyway?' That's the extent to which FOMF seems to really give a shit about anything. As for his or her sympathies to Susan and Abi, well that's a negotiable instrument too, isn't it? A little anonymous, hypocritical pat on the back. Why not? Didn't cost much ....Might even look good. Hell, why not?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:57:43 (GMT)
From: FoMF
Email: None
To: Jim, Joe and Kevin
Subject: Yes, that was my point, Joe
Message:

Look,

I extended my personal apologies to the victims. That is what is in my control. Yes, EV is aware of my opinion on the faqs. Frankly its not just my opinion. And, yes, they are aware of that as well.

One is supposed to tell the truth because that is what one is supposed to do, not just to shut up the critics.

Well - I did my best. I was trying to extend a hand to the victims and pass on some information. I'm not surprised this was inadequate for some of you. You can, if it makes you feel better, continue to view premies as an amorphous blob of unconscious drones. That ain't the way it is.

If I find out any information that is useful, I will pass it on.

All the best,
FoMF

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:02:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FoMF
Subject: Hey, you missed the point
Message:

I for one take you at face value for extending condolences to Jagdeo's victims, as well as whatever you are doing to try to get Jagdeo from continuing to molest kids. That wasn't my point. I was responding to your statement that MAHARAJI telling the truth wouldn't satisfy his critics, and hence there was no point in doing it. That's the point you haven't responded to.

What has been Elan Vital's response when you told them their FAQs are a bunch of lies? Did they apologize to you? Did they say they would fix them?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 11:34:00 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: FoMF
Subject: but my point was
Message:

Hi FoMF

In my post last night I it may have come across as a personal attack on you FoMF. If that was the case I am sorry but I posted last thing at night and I was very tired but I just wanted to get my point across about m and EV total lack of any acknowledgement of this situation.

Do I think all premies are 'an amorphous blob of unconscious drones' ? No, of course not. I too, was once a lovey dovie premie like you and not so long ago either (we are taking months here not years) and I still have some good premie friends.

By rereading your post I can see that you are genuinely trying to help the situation.

When premies post on the forum it is very easy to direct your anger and hatred of m at them and not at the real issues, which in this case is m's total lack of responsibility on this matter (or any other matter come think of it).

So please keep posting FoMF your help in this matter is much appreciated.

Kev, someone who hates m A LOT

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 02:14:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: FoMF
Subject: Yes, that was my point, Joe
Message:

FoMF,

Let me ask you one thing. You suggest that your opinion of the FAQs is a relatively common one. Who do you think gave the green light to have those FAQs posted? Have you ever even considered this? Of course you haven't. If it ever entered in your mind that the green light would have been given by Maharaji, that would really put you in a pickle, wouldn't it, the fact that you held a low opinion of something he, himself, orchestrated. Well, FoMF, that very well might be the case. You might want to look into it.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:12:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: FoMF
Subject: A Question, FoMF
Message:

Do you honestly believe, after all these years, that EV/DLM is anything other than what Maharaji has made it? Think about it. Who has had any power over the last 30 years to shape the organisation into something that Maharaji doesn't want?

You sound like an intelligent person. How can you think Maharaji is OK, and EV isn't?

It's nonsense.

BTW, just because you started posting as FoMF doesn't mean you have to stick with the name. All you have to do is announce that you now wish to be known as 'xxxx', maybe post as 'xxxx (formerly FoMF)' for a few days, and then switch to 'xxxx'. Mike Finch might be grateful for not being associated with your views.

John.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:16:30 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: FoMF
Subject: And of course....
Message:

.... you could post with your real name, as I'm sure you have nothing to be ashamed of.

John Brauns
from Leeds, UK, now living in Latvia, address and phone number available on request.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:19:56 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: have you checked your e-mail lately Jim? nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:19:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Recurring themes
Message:

At the risk of sounding like I am saying 'all premies think alike,' why is it we hear the same excuses over and over? This one about not 'satisfying the people here' and therefore there is no point in being truthful is one of them.

I remember OP made that argument about 3 years ago, Paula Rosenblum did it about 2 years ago. Erika did it a few weeks ago, and now FOMF. Except in the most Machiavellian, stragetic, PR meetings, I have never heard that argument used as an excuse for not telling the truth. I mean, I never hear it anywhere else but from premies.

But then, who am I to talk. I'm somebody who thought that 'NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND' had something to do with not doubting. According to the other revisionist viewpoint, that meant I should go out and test everything and get my doubts resolved. I can't even see how you can get that form the literal commandment. That's how confused I am!

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 22:02:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: I've never really understood that kind of comment
Message:

3) Does it bother you the way Elan Vital and Maharaji have handled this issue in the past 2 years?
I don't know how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I know the 'faqs' are an embarrassment. Having said that, I'm not sure anything EV did would satisfy people here, whose primary goal is to see M drawn and quartered.

Whose problem is that, yours or ours? You're probably damn right. I can't imagine anything EV or Maharaji would ever say that could rectify any of this shit AND leave him or them standing. But so what? What are you implying, that that's somehow OUR problem? Or that simply because your cult could never set matters right there's no use trying? Sounds like it, doesn't it?

You're on very shakey ground, morally, FOMF. Too bad for you, huh? Bet you never expected that your 'search for truth' would lead to such a blind alley.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 21:52:36 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: Thanks, Friend of Mike
Message:

Thanks for those answers.

When you say you love Maharaji, 'alot,' did you fall in love with him because you personally spent time with him? How much time have you spent with him? Do you think that someone, like me, who never even met Maharaji, let alone ever talked to him or spent time with him, could they they 'love' him? I say this with the full knowledge that I lived in his ashrams for almost 10 years and very much wanted to 'love' him, but never did. For a long time, I considered that my own failure.

I don't know how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I know the 'faqs' are an embarrassment. Having said that, I'm not sure anything EV did would satisfy people here, whose primary goal is to see M drawn and quartered.

Yes, I was even embarrassed by the FAQs, and I haven't been a premie for 17 years. I was also angry because it was something I was personally involved in, and took personal offense that they would lie about a significant period of my life. I would imagine that a lot of premies are very embarrassed by them. It doesn't appear that Kathie Thomas is too effected by that, as I understand she is the person who wrote them, as well as that very embarrassing letter to Jim Sander that was posted here, in which he asked some pretty sincere questions but got no answers.

But have have to admit that your 'drawn and quartered' comment is extremely simplistic and very unfair. I'm sure you would not like it if premies were categorized as all being the same. So I'm sure you can see that when we who post here are all thrown into one set of beliefs, we don't like that either. But as you know, the outrage against Maharaji is due to anger, and his apparent unwillingness to address any concerns of anyone.

I have always said that if you enjoy Maharaji and knowledge, that's a personal choice, but I disagree that 'moral failings' aren't relevent to a 'master,' especially if the master is supposedly teaching something about the essence of life and love. And also because he is secretive about his foibles, and in fact has intentionally hidden them.

Plus, there are certain failings that I think are unforgivable, like have sex with his devotees, and taking drugs while giving us agya not to. The mistress is pretty bad too, considering how he presented himself as the chaste family man.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:11:30 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: FOMF
Subject: FOMF, I'd like to ask a few questions of you....
Message:

Hi FOMF-

I couldn't help 'overhear' you and Joe, especially when my name and letter were mentioned.

I'm glad you are here, because believe it or not, I think that most of the people here, as well as most of the premies, would like honest, sincere discussions and answers to these disturbing questions.

I have a few questions for you, if you are up for answering them...

1)Doesn't it appear obvious that maharaji is hiding many things about himself?
Shouldn't present day students and potential students know these things, so that they can make an informed choice about whether or not to follow this teacher?

For example, it is alleged in many places by many people, that maharaji has a drinking problem and a fidelity problem.
Shouldn't he tell the truth to people, so that they can then make a choice about whether or not they feel comfortable following such a man, who leads such a life?
Do his values matter?
If you say they don't, would you explain that to the new people, and why they don't?

Is it immoral to lead new people into this, without telling them everything?
What happens when they get hooked, and then realize this stuff?
Could you feel comfortable with not telling a parent whose young son or daughter was about to recieve knowledge these things, especially if you knew the parents had high moral values and would likely consider his behaviour offensive?

2)Do you see how maharaji and EV are 'setting up' the very people they want to be their base of support for the future?

When premies go out into their respective communities and try to bring in new followers, aren't they also putting themselves at great risk by publicing endorsing a man who has so many scandalous allegations swirling around him?
What happens if they are true?
What has he done to his closest followers? (He used to say they were dearer to him than life itself, closer to him than his breath)

And in turn, what have the poor unsuspecting premies done to those closest to themselves? (Remember that the people they tell about maharaji are the people they are closest to, and have some sort of relationship with, such as family, friends, lovers, co-workers, neighbors etc.)

3)I believe that morality and spiritual growth need to go together.
Why?
I think that the story of maharaji is a classic, textbook example of what goes wrong when you don't have the two together.

Would you agree?

Do you think he is a 'moral' man?
Does that matter?
For instance, is it OK to revise the past?
Does that tell us something about him?
Would a new person be inclined to trust a man who revises the past? (these revisions, or lies, can easily be proven...they are here on the EPO site)

4)Do you think that the 'knowledge lite' presentation these days is totally honest?

I don't.

Do aspirants really understand how drawn in these premies are?
Do they understand how gut-wrenching it is to leave maharaji?
Do they understand why so many premies refuse to look at these disturbing questions? Why they can't?
Do they know how dependent premies are on m and k?
Do the aspirants really know what they are getting in for?
Do they know how he used to present himself?
Do they know how he tries to discount or marginalize his critics?(And does he realize how transparent it all is?)

If they did, I don't think they would continue.

OK,friend, I know that's a bunch of questions, but I would like to know how you feel...if not all the questins, how about a general feeling about what I'm talking about?

Also, how would you rewrite the FAQ's?

Thanks, and best wishes.
Jim Sander

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:06:13 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Great post! (same message inside Jimmie)
Message:

Great post! (same message inside Jimmie)

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:34:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: That was brilliant, Jim Sanders. Thanks! NT
Message:

j

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 03:37:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Wonderful questions and comments, MR. Sander
Message:

Really good, all of it. I even think FoMF might actually try to answer one or two of them honestly. Okay, that wasn't fair. I take it back. I look forward to FoMF's answers (and new name, hopefully).

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:15:02 (GMT)
From: FoMF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Friend of Mike
Message:

Joe....

But have have to admit that your 'drawn and quartered' comment is extremely simplistic and very unfair

Last point - sorry if the English was not very clear...I did mean that SOME people here would just like to see M drawn and quartered. Of course it would be rediculous for me to accuse the individuals here of being the amorphous blob that some folks seem to think people with knowledge are.

Erika and Paula, huh? - good company...good people. Like lots of you folks here.

FoMF

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 18:10:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: FoMF
Subject: Thanks, Friend of Mike
Message:

Yeah, I knew Erika and Paula when I was a premie. I think both of them are having a lot of troubles trying to reconcile Maharaji's behavior with what they believed him to be. I think you might be thinking along the same lines.

Do I know you?

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 17:28:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: My phone call with Judy today
Message:

susan i cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would ascribe to the conviction that this will never be tried, exept in the court of public opinion. that kind of thinking will paralyze us from doing the necessary acts to make an arrest and a trial come to pass.
i'm glad you called judy, and worked thru your feelings of not believing it would do any good. the first adversary to get past is in our own heads. i think the adage 'feel the fear, and do it anyway' applies here.

maybe even the 'fake it till you make it' advice. act as if. as if you will be successful. as if it will take place. you be the one who decides that it will happen.
my experience is, that once you decide that a thing is to be, the world parts to make way for you, and all kinds of help materializes, that you never knew was there.

email me so i can send you something i sent out yesterday. you are going to want to see this

janet

Jai_Choix@webtv.net

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