Joe -:- The impeccability requirement -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 17:10:50 (GMT)

__ Mr. Mind -:- If EV was a publically traded corporation........ -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:36:23 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- Joe, I swear this story is true..a little example. -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:02:55 (GMT)

__ __ Christian Star -:- That was so well written, LA-ex...!!!!! ROFL -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:25:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Hi Christian. It was in US,and I've got more... -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:02:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- The satellite one should be hilarious too -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 20:34:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Glen is everywhere. Where are the UFO's? -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 03:56:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Christan Star -:- Glen is everywhere. Where are the UFO's? -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:44:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- Glen is everywhere. Where are the UFO's? -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:27:38 (GMT)

__ __ Gary E. -:- ****HILARIOUS**** A situation comedy fer sure. . . -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 19:33:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- ****HILARIOUS**** yer post -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 21:14:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Gary -:- Fully Prostrate at the Golden Throne -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:19:37 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, well done. -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:07:58 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- Do you remember this???? hahahahahahha -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 13:34:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Oh My God, there it is!!! -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:07:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ SB -:- What is ridiculous -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:54:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Do you remember this???? hahahahahahha -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:07:36 (GMT)

__ __ Bryn -:- Excellent ! Ho ho ho. So true. Me too etc. NT -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:52:06 (GMT)

__ __ wolfie -:- Joe, I swear this story is true..a little example. -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:59:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Curious Goerge -:- Too Funny -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:05:05 (GMT)

__ __ Mr. Mind -:- Great story -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:40:58 (GMT)

__ __ Thelma the Church Lady -:- torrential rainstorm before program and your drip -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:27:57 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- ***A Classic! A best ***** n/t -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:04:02 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- oh my god, please make this a ***BEST*** -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:43:37 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- la-ex, this is way beyond compulsive -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:40:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Richard, Dimming the lights is soooo blissful... -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:26:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Richard, Dimming the lights is soooo blissful... -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:02:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- la-ex did not exaggerate - that's how it was (nt) -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:46:01 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- but he can show up when he wants -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:04:58 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- OCD -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:52:06 (GMT)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- it starts on time right down to the atomic second -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:54:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Soap! I Cleaned His Toilet, Christ! UGH!!! -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:19:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim Hession -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:38:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jim Hession -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:55:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Archie Bunker -:- Cult Events and 'terlets' for M -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:02:14 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- time to quit when you can't bring in new people -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 22:25:36 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- you can't bring in new people - Amen -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:19:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- that is truly tragic, Pat, and no kidding -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:12:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Be grateful...................for your anus, Chris -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:35:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Barry -:- you can't bring in new people - Amen -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:53:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- M has saves lives, but it's those suicidal doubts -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:46:18 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I remember that mess well -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:23:06 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Yeah, marge hates mess and probably fears it.. -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:16:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- I think Donner had a story -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 23:08:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Hi Fran--I came to the same conclusion=OCD -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:04:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nick -:- Hi Fran--I came to the same conclusion=OCD -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:39:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Wow Nick -- M free lips! -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:42:07 (GMT)

__ Free -:- The Looks, the appearence of heaven -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:03:50 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- The Looks, the appearence of heaven -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:36:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Free -:- You got it!! NT -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:40:17 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- willing to transcribe that video for you, Free -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:11:15 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Narcissism -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:03:44 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Narcissism -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:41:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Sainthood' - qu'est-ce que c'est? -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 21:42:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'Sainthood' - qu'est-ce que c'est? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:14:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Enlightenment -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:19:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Enlightenment vs Judeo Christian perspective -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:39:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Enlightenment -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:08:03 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- This is a classic cause of suicide, as well -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:30:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- This is a classic cause of suicide, as well -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:46:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- You are on to something important here H and F -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 21:01:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- social suicide, so, so true... n/t -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:06:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- You are on to something important here H and F -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:05:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Not to mention Mahatma Gitanand -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 23:18:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Mahatma Gitanand -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:44:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Mahatma Gitanand -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:38:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- Mahatma Gitanand -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 08:50:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Danke schon, wolfie. Empfang. (nt -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:59:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Mahatma Gitanand - can you confirm this? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:03:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- Mahatma Gitanand - can you confirm this? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 07:51:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- broken english -- boy Mahatma abuse -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:35:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- broken english -- boy Mahatma abuse -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 10:44:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Do you mean he tried but failed to commit suicide? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 09:00:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- he recoverded from his suicide attempt -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 15:37:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, wolfie -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 17:35:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chef Boy-Arti -:- Thanks, wolfie -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:38:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I hope he failed to commit suicide -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 13:32:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks wolfie -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:51:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Wolfie, just read your post after posting mine -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:50:22 (GMT)

Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 17:10:50 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The impeccability requirement Message:

Down below, people were talking about this 'impeccability' requirement that Maharaji has always stressed, and the premies parrot back all the time. In the Maharaji cult, there seems to be this anal attention to the most minute details of things, but no concept whatsoever as to why the details don't come together to actually get any results. For example, how many times has the progagation scheme changed over the years, with the same, miserable, lack of results? The cult doesn't grow, it actually shrinks. It's almost as if this scenario allows PWKs to focus on the details to avoid seeing the failure of reaching the actual goal. Right now, there is the 'new' scheme of DVDs and 'auto-knowledge' for which premies are apparently forking over thousands of dollars to finance, apparently relieved that propagation is 'finally' going to happen. But, like all the previous schemes, that isn't going to happen because the cult has a fundamental problem, and that's Maharaji himself, and how the premies come accross in doing 'participation.' One example comes to mind. In late 1981, Maharaji did a program at Zellerbach Hall in Berkeley on the UC campus. The program was shceduled to begin at 8:00 pm and was advertised as an introductory program. Being a former Elan Vital management-type, I was put in charge of something or other (can't recall what exactly), but that Nazi David Smith was the overall honcho, as he was in charge of the Western US for Elan Vital. Anyhow, with the rental of the hall came a group of UC Students who were working taking tickets as people entered. I think we were contractually required to utilize them for that purpose. Anyhow, premies had to pick up tickets at will-call and things slowed down some, but Smith was absolutly frantic that the program had to begin precisely at 8 and everyone had to be in their seats. I remember him frantically running around, wreaking of paranoia, harrassing everyone to that end. Accordingly, he was harrassing these students to get them to get people in faster and get them seated. I remember the students looking at this crazed man like he was psychotic, and let's face it, he was. There was this fanatic need to be impeccable and that meant the program had to begin exactly on time, or we had failed in serving the living Lord. But the result was, these students, as well as a number of the invited 'new people' felt rushed and harrassed and saw examples of robotic crazy people as premies. It was not a good example for people to see. The attempt to be impeccable resulted in fanatic craziness, which was not lost on anyone who saw it. I remember kind of withdrawing at that point. I just went and sat down. The program ended up starting about 8:10 and, reportedly, Maharaji was pissed that the program didn't begin on time. Maharaji then came on stage and spoke incoherent nonsense which did not impress the guest I had brought to the program. After the program was over, I went with her to get cake and coffee, and we NEVER discussed the program then, or ever again. She was not impressed by Maharaji or the premies, and I was frankly ashamed to be associated with them. It was at that point that I became thoroughly embarrassed to tell anyone I was a premie and I never again tried to propagate to anyone. It seems this scenario continues in the Maharaji cult, coming straight from the top.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:36:23 (GMT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: Joe Subject: If EV was a publically traded corporation........ Message:

...the board of directors would have screamed 'Off with his (Rawat's) head' long ago. This man has tried many documented changes in his 30 years of so-called leadership. All have failed.However, being the sole proprietor of his cult, he can continue indefinetely to blame others for his failures. As long as his membership sees him as perfect(and they do), they will humbly accept the blame. Shit truly does flow down hill.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:02:55 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, I swear this story is true..a little example. Message:

Joe, here's an example of the impeccability requirement along with the 'copycat tendency' from a local intro program a few years ago. It shows how following the maha rather than your own common sense is silly and counterproductive, and just so plain stupid....it also shows how no one in their right mind would ever get into this at this point... When I was still involved, I volunteered to run the video projector at the local hall for an introductory program one Sunday night. The crowd would be mostly premies, with a few invited guests. One premie had even spent days designing an invitation that he actually had to clear with EV before it could be used. Ushers had gone hundreds of miles away to an ushers participation meeting for a full weekend to be properly trained and synchronised. There was a properly trained emcee, with canned remarks according to EV's direction.Part of those directions specifically stated that under no circumstances should humor, original remarks, or one's personality be involved with the intro remarks. There was a properly trained event manager, properly synchronised. There had been a required security meeting for all participating servants to be properly trained on how to operate the fire extinguisher in the hall.(not kidding) (The hall is about 12 feet wide by 30 feet long and seats about 25 people max.) Two ushers were trained and in place. A backup emcee was present, just in case. The divine sales table was properly manned by the sales person. Another person sat at the back of the room with an intro video of m, to be handed out to anyone who showed up by mistake and was not ready for the intro program(?). This person had been to a meeting with David Smith about how to approach new people who wandered in and were not deemed ready for the video-they were to be given a free video to go home and watch. Another premie stood outside the hall and kept an eye on the parking lot. Another premie sat in the back, ready to assist at any time for any reason.(kind of an all around utility man) Another premie handled the lights, ready to fade up and down, in synch with the video. Another premie sat beside the thermostat, in case it needed adjustments. Another premie stood by, ready to talk to new people at the end, if any came and had questions. And I stood ready to run the video machine. Let's see, I think that's about 12-13 people involved in service at this point. (The community has about 25 people max, about 15-18 regulars) (To those still reading this post, I am NOT kidding or exaggerating any of this. This happened about 3 years ago, and was done acccording to the EV book.) Problem was, that after this routine had been practiced and run a few times, this particular night there had been a torrential rainstorm just before the program. This were hurricane type gales of wind and rain, which lasted about 20 minutes and then quickly passed. Anyone on their way to the program would surely be caught up in it, and the resulting traffic jams. I was there very early to set up the video equipment, but quickly surmised that there would be a problem due to incoming late stragglers, because of the rain... However, only being a mid level community member at best, due to my somewhat maverick nature, and refusal to become a 'church lady', I was quickly over-ruled by the reigning 'Industrial strength church lady' (a man I will not name, but is more uptight and rigid than David Smith, if you can believe that..) I told the 'ISCL' that we needed to start the program at least 5-10 minutes late, due to the inclement weather. If we didn't, people would be streaming in late throughout the video, and being a tiny room,it would create havoc for the viewing of the video. But the 'ISCL' prevailed, citing m's insistence on using the atomic clock to start the programs...in fact, his watch had been set that night to the atomic clock, in synchronization with the anticipated intro program. So, the program starts at 7PM sharp, right on the money according to the atomic clock. Only problem is, the only people in the hall are me on the video projector, and he and his wife. What to do? We had to start on time, but the requisite quorum of 12 able bodied premies was not present. What is a Church Lady to do? (Now put youself in his shoes for a breath or two....you start on time, but are very short on personnel-not good with EV. Or you wait 10 minutes and get the required personnel, but you have violated m's practice of starting compulsively on time. Either way you're in deep doodoo of the mind, and not wanting any bad reports to filter down to EV personnel.) So, he starts on time, according to the atomic clock.(m's way, according to his point of view) I run the video, his wife emcees, he checks the thermostat and fire extinguisher while turning down the lights, then his wife takes the required intro video and waits in the back of the room, while occassionally peeking outside at the parking lot. The video starts,(only 3 of us at the outset) and premies stream in for the next 20 minutes, completely wrecking anyone's ability to watch it in any focused manner, as the door constantly opens and closes with light and outside noise streaming in. About 10 regular premies come, no visitors... But everyone did a little service...10 people all serving each other.... After the 'program', there was a 'debriefing' amongst all servants, to discuss the synchronised participation... I think that was the final straw/drip for me.... I resigned as video man shortly thereafter. A true story; actual names of servants deleted to protect them from lurking EV personnel and Glen Whittaker, who might seek to take disciplinary action against them.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:25:40 (GMT) From: Christian Star Email: None To: la-ex Subject: That was so well written, LA-ex...!!!!! ROFL Message:

I take it from your comment at the end that this video event you described was in England? Well, it was absolutely hilarious to me because it could have been an exact replica of what I have experienced here in the U.S. I couldn't stop laughing out loud as I read your post...!!!! I am still a 'practicing premie,' but can no longer stand to attend such silly events as you have described. Being one who suffered through many, many such events, I thank you so much for the laughs that by now I certainly deserve to get out of it!! Hahahaha. It's absolutely ridiculous! I will have to always read your posts from now on. I couldn't bear to miss anything else as hilarious as that -- and all you did was 'state the obvious,' as Maharaji would put it. ROFL!!!

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:02:58 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Christian Star Subject: Hi Christian. It was in US,and I've got more... Message:

Hi Christian- No, I'm not from England...that took place in a small community in the US about 2-3 years ago. I think I may do a slight rewrite and tell it more from the 'Industrial Strength Church Lady' point of view...you know, the drama,the decision making,the agony,the ecstasy,...the silliness,...the bullshit... Glad to see that you have a sense of humor about it all, even though you are in it... I was a premie for 29 years, but graduated from Maharaji U. this last year with my Masters Degree. I had already gotten my Bachelors Degree, after all that time being celibate in the ashram. Decided not to go all the way for my PHD (piled higher and deeper). It feels so good to just be me...and free... Oh yeah, I have another story similar to the first one, about the very first satellite feed in a hotel and what THAT one was like...puts the first story to shame... Good night, Christian Star...

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 20:34:30 (GMT) From: Christian Star Email: starflock@hotmail.com To: la-ex Subject: The satellite one should be hilarious too Message:

Well, though I obviously disagree with you on the point of the viability of being a practicing premie, I am very much looking forward to the description of the satellite event. I hope you'll post it up top somewhere because I don't know how to navigate this site very well, and this is pretty far down. Hey, did you see that awesome 'Disclosure' video-streaming press conference thing on the UFOs? Oh, the reason I thought you were in England was cuz you said you weren't going to report names to Glen Whittaker, and he's British. Does he have an international role now or something?

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 03:56:18 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Christian Star Subject: Glen is everywhere. Where are the UFO's? Message:

Glen Whittaker supposedly is in charge of the monitoring of this site, and the strategies for dealing with it. Occassionally we say hello to Glen, and will probably all wish him a Happy Birthday in the fall on his b-day. I think Anth sometimes tells him to return his kitchen blender or something like that. Can you tell me more about the UFO streaming video? Also, just curious: do you tell new people about m? And if you do, do you tell that there is a lot of dirty laundry behind the official presentation? I am sincerely asking this, because the main reason I left was that I found out how unethical m and ev really were, and I just couldn't go on anymore lying about it to other people, and seing my friends basically try to con people into receiving k, without telling them the 'other side of the story'. Also, m's version of history on his site angered me greatly. Just curious. Sincerely curious. La-ex

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:44:18 (GMT) From: Christan Star Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Glen is everywhere. Where are the UFO's? Message:

P.S. In response to EV's version of Maharaji's background, yes I agree it is poppycock. I wrote to Maharaji about this. My feeling is that he has nothing to be ashamed of but I keep getting the distinct impression that people who represent him are deeply embarrassed or ashamed of Maharaji's past, and this is very hurtful to him and to all of us. I believe in freedom of information and freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Many things Maharaji has been accused of on this site are, no doubt, patently untrue. And many other things, no doubt, are absolutely accurate. Nonetheless, what I have not seen or experienced myself is hearsay. Not everyone is honest, not even here. =P That said, I am very thankful Maharaji is a real person and not some celibate monk with pursed lips. And I know a lot of people on this site are angry with Maharaji for not taking responsibility for the actions of those around him and those that follow him, but IMO all of us our responsible for our own actions and our own actions only -- even Maharaji. I do not feel his is responsible for anyone else's actions, though he can credited with inspiring (or angering) others. My truly believe that Maharaji is an absolutely wonderful human being, and I believe it would be literally impossible for anyone less than wonderful and wise and graced to be able to say the things he does again and again at events around the world -- and only a motivated and heart-feeling individual would put the time and effort into such work as he does. Were he the terrible person many here characterize him as, he would he taken the money and run -- a long, long, long time ago. My gratitude to Maharaji is, for me, a deeply beautiful experience.

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:27:38 (GMT) From: Christian Star Email: starflock@hotmail.com To: la-ex Subject: Glen is everywhere. Where are the UFO's? Message:

Ohhhh, I see! Glenn is cool. I met him long, long ago. Hi Glenn. =) To Glenn: I think this site is really cool because, to put it in perspective, of what Shri Maharaji used to say: (paraphrasing of course since he didn't even speak English!) -- Listen to your enemies. They are the only ones that will tell you truthfully what your faults are. If you have an enemy, you should buy him a house right next door to where you live, and give him a bowl of rice every day!! I have only positive memories of you, Glenn -- a jolly old chap and interesting too! La-Ex, I'm trying to remember what you asked me. Oh, about the UFOs, really you should check out that site for yourself if you have a decent computer. It is very hard to tell you 2 1/2 hours of information from the press conference in a short 'sound byte' here! Some of the most serious implications/truths involved? The fact that a 'secret' government of people have been covering up not only very significant UFO activity, crashed alien craft, etc., but also covering up the fact that technology IS now available that could end use of polluting fossil fuel and also end global warming -- but the military-industrial complex is a rich, greedy and powerful bugger and we need masses of people to urge their Congressmen to have an OPEN CONGRESSIONAL HEARING for the DISCLOSURE PROJECT which is spearheaded by Dr. Steve Greer, former legal counsel for those that busted open the 'Pentagon Papers,' the 'Silkwood' nuclear facility travesties and other such important globally-significant causes. These are *not* kooks. It is important, it is awesome, and I salute the bravery of the 21 witnesses that have stepped forward at the May 9th Conference! Your other question: Yes, I do still tell people about Maharaji and Knowledge. I have continued to and share videos and invite people to watch satellite broadcasts at my home, however I do not volunteer any information about local hall events, etc. I feel it is a problem. It's all too weird. I trust it will change, because all weird things do. LOL. There are people who need and want to hear Maharaji and I hope to always faclitate that. I can only encourage them by my example to practice Knowledge faithfully, listen to Maharaji regularly and contribute to his work -- naturally and organically in the lifestyle of my own choosing, and having nothing to do with EV organizers. I appreciate EV because they facilitate my going to see Maharaji in person from time to time. They also facilitate Knowledge sessions. Beyond that I confess I have little appreciation for their activities. I personally choose to contribute only to Visions at this time, because I feel it is extremely wonderful what they are doing with the satellite broadcasts, and I am outrageously and enthusiastically delighted that the satellite events are now unencrypted for anyone to see who has a Dish Network dish activated. One only has to call Dish and let them know that they want access to channels 9602 and 9601 -- and just tune into those channels 1:00 p.m. Pacific time on Sundays or 6:00 p.m. Thursdays for a repeat of the Sunday broadcast. To me, this is what propagation is all about -- getting the word out, and without charging money. Yes, many things that go on give me a troubled mind, but Maharaji has given me a untroubled heart. What greater blessing could he possibly bestow? Maharaji said something to the effect that most people in the world try to live with a satisfied mind and a troubled heart, but they have it backwards: and Maharaji teaches us to live with a satisfied heart, even when the mind is troubled. I still think for myself and I really don't believe that Maharaji would ever want it any other way. I wish to emulate Maharaji only in his ability to constantly, lovingly and enthusiastically focus again and again and again on that more pure, fresh, clean and cosmic reality. Obviously the choice of the word 'cosmic' is mine, not his. He downplays that area, yet I have experienced it too clearly and too deeply not to mention it. Cheers

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 19:33:33 (GMT) From: Gary E. Email: None To: la-ex Subject: ****HILARIOUS**** A situation comedy fer sure. . . Message:

Although it's been quite some time since I went to a local intro program here in town your post made me remember the last time I did. It was with a good time buddy o' mine. We entered the room where all the 'regulars' were silently seated - my buddy was the only new person. It was at the time when the new official missive for intro programs was no meditating in the hall (eyes closed and all that). So there everyone was just silently sitting there staring straight ahead at the tv monitor reminding me of the apes in 2001 A Space Odyssey staring at the monolith. Of course the odd person would still lapse into closing their eyes briefly then snap out of it with a beatific and determined 'following the words of the master' look on their face. My bud was smirking, chit-chatting, and rather amused at the church-like solemnity - he nodded off during the video and never returned (nor I).

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 21:14:46 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Gary E. Subject: ****HILARIOUS**** yer post Message:

You and la-ex just gave me the flavor of those uptight gatherings. You could sometimes cut it with a knife. They ought to have passed out preparation-H at the door. But if *you* were involved in setup or planning, you meditated through the knots in your stomach. It was this zone that we were told was the 'immaculate' realm of juju maha. It became such a familiar feeling. Can you feeeeel it? The Power of Looooove! Waiting for the other shoe to drop. We wondered why no one else liked it. Duhhh! In the old days, before M and EV/DLM realized that we premies must have appeared as if we were smoking some strange stuff, people that weren't premies would come to satsang and see M & M's wedding video -- remember that one? (Those bouncing boobies on the beach, oh vey.) Or Kathy Sisler singing on the background track for Premlata's baby video, 'ooooh, ooooh, sweet Premlata - ah ooooh, oooh, weave a vine of love. Tie our hearts, to our Lord, please. Thank you Maharaji for this child.' No wonder Kathy moved out of the residence after a while. What a mind fakkk. She was probably too smart to stay in that state of gratitude for toooo long. I suppose we could have sat around the golden toilet and shrieked, 'Thank you Maharaji for this ...' oh, nevermind! good one! --f

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:19:37 (GMT) From: Gary Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Fully Prostrate at the Golden Throne Message:

I suppose we could have sat around the golden toilet and shrieked, 'Thank you Maharaji for this ...' yeah, talk about immaculate conception, but of course he was passed out, pickled and prostrate so we just kept on flushin' Gary

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:07:58 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Thanks, well done. Message:

You captured the mentality precisely. Very funny and so true. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 13:34:31 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Do you remember this???? hahahahahahha Message:

In my community was exactly the same! Did you ever got this 'suggestions' from EV on how to set an event? Hilarious! Dummies good post la-ex! luv, sb

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:07:04 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: SB Subject: Oh My God, there it is!!! Message:

Geez, that 'diagram' (which is apparently prepared assuming the recipients are COMPLETE idiots), lays out just what La-Ex was saying with all the people in the appropriate place (but where is the guy manning the thermostat?). Hysterical. It really is important to inform people that you don't have to have translation if it isn't 'necessary,' because PWKs wouldn't be able to figure that out on their own. But I am AMAZED that the usher at the door (if a hotel) is OPTIONAL. I do not believe PWKs can handle having to make that decision. Mind is a big trap, you know. This just shows how far things have evolved in the Maharaji cult. I am impressed.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:54:44 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Joe Subject: What is ridiculous Message:

What is ridiculous is that all was done in an effort to increase propagation, to make it lift off, and it bumeranged them because it scared many premies away. Nobody wanted to do service and the ones who did did not enjoy it after a while. It gets to be so, so incredibly boring and hard to follow, especially when you work yourself to death trying to manage three or four services at the times with no results. In 15 years only three people received K in my city which shows the minute amount of interest around here and the product of propagation, which point to the bad product being offered. Kowledge is for idiots and that is what happens when a person becomes part of the cult, part of the show; very slowly reasons abandons you and stupidity caves in. All US community, most, are very small. David Mancoff told me once that when I mentioned that this big city had only few interested premies and he responded (I gave the number, a dozen) that it was a very good number. I don't get it,except if I think that one of the beliefs maharaji smartly imparts is that ONLY FEW will get, being pure, etc. crap to make you stay. All too sad. poor premies.Lard is a pest, as any organized religion and worse, he is God after all. Yack! :) What a relief

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:07:36 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: SB Subject: Do you remember this???? hahahahahahha Message:

What's so crazy about all this is that this 'material' that they all act so secretively about, is common knowledge if (as I have done, literally hundreds of times) you are holding a business presentation to which potential clients have been invited, and there is a need to 'stay on message' as it is currently described.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:52:06 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Excellent ! Ho ho ho. So true. Me too etc. NT Message:

ou

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:59:18 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Joe, I swear this story is true..a little example. Message:

Hi la-ex, sorry I'm not so present on the scene, but I always like what you write and this story is really great. I will print it out and take it home for my wife and premiefriends. Lot's of laughter for sure, this story kills, simple as it is. Maybe I should go again to a video programm, to find some absurd material to tell it to all my new friends on EPO. Never come empty handed, have always another absurd story for the master. Love.....wolfie

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:05:05 (GMT) From: Curious Goerge Email: None To: L A Fox Subject: Too Funny Message:

Every time I went through this excruciating experience i always though how many premies does it take to put in a light bulb. Too funny and so well described i thought i was there again...shudder ...shudder ...shudder. I'm going to one soon i'll keep you posted if it's lightened up yet. Probably not. any bets? C.G.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:40:58 (GMT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Great story Message:

I witnessed something very similar once. What I secretly enjoyed was the emcee going through the welcome speech to the intro program even though there were no new people on hand. Of course, I realized that my secret enjoyment was just a product of Mr. Mind.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:27:57 (GMT) From: Thelma the Church Lady Email: None To: la-ex Subject: torrential rainstorm before program and your drip Message:

during it. Your post quite gave me a lump of nostalgia in my throat. I so miss straightening out those white table-cloths in synchronized participation. It was such a precious opportunity to serve You Know Who. I used to be so grateful to give up all manner of boring worldly pleasures to be doing such exciting service. I felt so inspired. Thanks, la-ex, for making the effort to describe such a scintillatingly exciting night of synchronized service. PatC: But seriously it was mind-bendingly insane. I think the synchronized paranoia - I mean participation - will drive away all but the die-hard Stepford Wives.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:04:02 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: la-ex Subject: ***A Classic! A best ***** n/t Message:

bellisimo

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:43:37 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: la-ex Subject: oh my god, please make this a ***BEST*** Message:

la-ex, that was so, so perfect I really felt THAT experience EXACTLY god, that's exactly how stupid it got

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:40:07 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: la-ex Subject: la-ex, this is way beyond compulsive Message:

...... it's totally insane! They are mad I tell you, MAD!!!!! I can hardly believe it but I trust you. Atomic clock?!? There's gotta be a Monty Python type screenplay in this somewhere. I love the idea that the ISCL's wife got up and introduced the evening to the two of you. What a synchronistically executed waste of time. Lemmings marching lockstep towards the abyss. Of course, now that I've picked myself up off the floor from falling over laughing, it's so obvious. What you describe is precisely the same mentality as someone ordering Sir Dave to guard the moldy cheddar in the refrigerator at a program years ago. Nothing has changed.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:26:05 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard, Dimming the lights is soooo blissful... Message:

I did it twice a couple of years ago! My gawd, it was so awful, so stiff, so contrived...like stepford people. The hilarious part was the emcee of the video programs. 'Data' on Star Trek-Next Generation has more personality than they did. And to emcee a video with two premies sitting there was absolutely nuts! And still no one spoke to eachother, weirdo stuff indeed. Talk about chills up my spine. I bet they are told to use breath mints too, but then, they don't need them if they can't talk! Sheesh! Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:02:31 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Richard, Dimming the lights is soooo blissful... Message:

I used to go to video events in Bellevue (near Seattle). The highlight was chatting with Steve T., a human who I knew from Denver and our very own Mercedes' wonderful smile. Otherwise as the lights faded, so did I - as the lights came back up, so did I. Very nice nap but otherwise like Sunday school. I'd look around at the regulars afterwards and they were in a sort of, 'zoned out - don't enter my aura vibe'.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:46:01 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Richard Subject: la-ex did not exaggerate - that's how it was (nt) Message:

asdf

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:04:58 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Joe Subject: but he can show up when he wants Message:

It's all too weird, given the only reason anyone goes is to see him. Too bad the students didn't tell David where to stick the tickets. Your story of sitting with your friend after the program was very vivid. Premies should ask themselves exactly who they are comfortable bringing to see M, or who they are not and why.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:52:06 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Joe Subject: OCD Message:

I think Maharaji is probably suffering from a certain amount of Obsessive/Compulsive Disorder and the obsession with being on time is just a reflection of that. This then filters down to everyone else in the organization, hence the frantic rushing about to be on time down to the second. Aren't there tales of his obsessive hand washing after having been in a public place? (I'm not sure of this myself, just heard stuff second hand here.) That's another sure sign, I think. Anybody that knows something about OCD can probably elaborate more. That, coupled with extreme narcissism, as Richard mentioned, in that he really and truly believes he's more divine than the rest of us and people should obey his every single wish accordingly, resulting in megalomania. In a half-hearted attempt at propagation, right around the time I was leaving the cult, I remember asking a woman I worked with if she'd want to come hear him speak in person and she said she'd rather stay home and clean her bathroom floor and organize her sock drawer than go hear him. She had the right perspective!

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:54:43 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Joy Subject: it starts on time right down to the atomic second Message:

Maharaji has bragged how his events start at exactly the right second, right down to the atomic second that he has everyone set their watches and computers to. at the events I've seen computer gear that has a screen with when the exact start and end time for each song and how long they are. And then for Maharaji's slot there is only a start time. And that's one reason why there is no live music anymore. It's all muszak from the can. Maharaji says because it's easier on the singers and everyone, but the real reason must be his compulsiveness. Gotta love all of the care and attention. Shit, Maharaji is one sick motherfucker. How absolutely pathetic.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:19:41 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Soap! I Cleaned His Toilet, Christ! UGH!!! Message:

Hi Roger, You're right about his atomic timing. He comes and goes as he pleases, because he's a complete asshole! At Deca I took care of two offices and one bathroom of his. The first small office was in the little warehouse. At the ''complex,'' he had an Executive Suite that was off of the Design Room. It had a large comfy conference room that lead to his office, which had a powder room. There was also a playroom off of his office for the kids. I was in charge of maintaining the impeccibility of his office. The whole ''raking the rug bullshit'' shit, clearing off the desk, cleaning his toilet (UGH!) and replacing his soap. He did seem to be hyperactive because he would string paper clips together and leave them on his desk. He never did anything on his desk except doodle, make a mess with paper, tear pieces of paper apart, doodle. I know he did a lot of complaining based on the color of Jim Hession's face after a meeting with his royal high ASS! You're right about the time thing.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:38:42 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Jim Hession Message:

Cynthia, what were your impressions of this guy? I had two major encounters. When I was Community Coordinator in DC, Hession flew into town and we set out in a flurry of activity to arrange for Maharaji's plane (this was before the 707 was completed, so it must have been a rented Leer or something), to land in the USA. Hession arrived and hadn't slept in days. I drove him to Dulles Airport and he slept hunched over in his seat the entire way. We made some kind of arrangements for M's arrival at Dulles. We also had to raise thousands of dollars in cash to pay for various arrangements for M upon arrival. I remember I asked Reggie Brown and his wife to 'loan' DLM thousands of dollars in cash. Being the devoted premies they were, they went immediately to the bank and withdrew the money. Anyhow, Hession did not seem human to me. He was crazed. I guess based partly on my interactions with Hession over all this, shortly thereafter, Hession requested that I be sent to DECA, which I did NOT want to do, because I liked DC so much. But, I went. That's when I worked in the legal department and tried to get DECA compliant with the various workplace laws, which it was violating all over the place. I prepared lists of things like licenses and insurance that we needed to get, with no response. Then, one day, Hession fired me implying that I 'didn't know how to serve Guru Maharaj Ji.' It was very weird. I do recall Hession going through the ringer in meetings with Maharaji. In fact, he was one of the people I witnessed Maharaji sadistically abuse about the Hans Jayanti stage, that I reported earlier.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:55:57 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Jim Hession Message:

Hi Joe, Jim Hession was always decent to me and others around me. I pretty much worked directly under him and Rollins as their admin. assistant. Maharaji had him under so much intense pressure because he was the so-called head of the Deca project, plus he was also responsible for many other things. He was completely maxed out and burnt. He was crazed because of goober's unbelievable demands upon him, IMO. He blushed a lot. I mean a lot. But he was a true believer, too, just like me and so many of us. He wanted to please the creep, and let's face it, there is no pleasing him. Rev Do-Bad's incessant demands, which, once given to Jim or Rollins, had to be delegated to the rank and file premies who worked at the project. I think he was just another brainwashed, programmed premie who wanted to please his Lard. He probably fired you because you were pointing out illegalities which he (Jim) could not bring to Maharaji and Virgil as an issue. It's possible Virgil was the one to recommend firing you (just a speculation). Virgil was an incredible bastard to everyone! Christ, Joe, you were rocking the boat back then--NOT ACCEPTABLE!:)) They didn't want anyone asking questions, Joe, and you were doing the right thing (also not acceptable)! I don't defend Jim's behavior. I only know how he was around me and others I worked with. I know m put him and Guy through the ringer every day, and they were trying to obey him. This goes back to the ''impeccibility'' factor, too. At the time, we all felt quite fortunate to be soooo clooose to the goob. It was a darshan lover's dream. When I think back on it all, nothing makes sense, and I can't find explanations except we were deluded into believing we were doing something righteous for the lard. Jim did have a temper at times, though never directed at me. He also seemed to like the power of his position at the time, too. He and Guy and their families spent time at the residence, etc. You know how the spiritual ego happens in that cult. So, I agree, he was crazed, but I think by Maharaji, and Maharaji's impossible demands. I'll think about this some more...Guy was a very meek and quiet person and usually deferred to Jim. They both were stuck in the messy soup of m's agya. They had a lot of meetings in private in Guy's office, usually after a meeting with m. This was at the complex, and Guy's office had a window so red faces were glowing a lot of the time. Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:02:14 (GMT) From: Archie Bunker Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Cult Events and 'terlets' for M Message:

In my long career as a cult member, I was often graced with low level Service opporchancities to help prepare the VENUE for You Know Who's arrival. I was given such services as gopher and christmas light stringer(to prepare a path for M in the darkened back stage area. I have memories of seeing premies preparing and cleaning the toilet M would use....they would actually clean with toothbrushes. Such consciousness ! I always wondered what the regular staff at the venue thought about this. Mr. Mind

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 22:25:36 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Joe Subject: time to quit when you can't bring in new people Message:

I was in the stupid cult for nearly 25 years. As time went on I found it more and more impossible to ever consider inviting anyone to a 'program'. And consider that it was easier to invite someone to a 'public' program where Maharaji was speaking than a dumb old video hosted by a small army of zombies. And why couldn't I consider inviting anyone? Because the whole thing became very, very stupid as Joe's story clearly indicates. Because the whole thing was based on Maharaji and the little lie that he was who he was and who he wasn't and what he wasn't supposed to be and whatever. It's so fucking lame to believe so deeply in something so hoaky that the only people whom you would consider inviting would be some really whackos who don't have much of anything to lose because you know that any of 'real' people wouldn't have anything to do with it. God, what kind of lame-ass loser philosophy is that? Sick and dysfunctional! Oh well, at least the programs and the trains will start and run on time.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:19:41 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: you can't bring in new people - Amen Message:

I went back in after dropping out for a while because I thought Rev Rawat was the only source of something that I enjoyed and wanted others to enjoy. It took me a year to figure out that I could not invite any of my friends because they were all much happier and saner than most of the premies. I just had an email from one of the local premies saying I was full of shit to criticise Rawat on FV, because, he adds, ''M has helped me so much in spite of sometimes feeling suicidally full of doubts.'' DUH!

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:12:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: PatC Subject: that is truly tragic, Pat, and no kidding Message:

'M has helped me so much in spite of sometimes feeling suicidally full of doubts.' Chances are that if that poor soul had never heard of M, suicide would never have raised its head as an option. All that dependence on the 'master'. What's it lead to? Either more of the same (as in super-glued dependence) or an unstable emotional state in which even suicide can seem preferable to leaving. That Maharaji feller is seriously bad news. I'm surprised the health authorities don't slap some kind of warning on him. 'Danger: Dependence on Maharaji is addictive'. 'Knowledge can kill'. Though he sells himself and 'his' knowledge as some kind of answer to life's problems, the truth of it is that many people find themselves entrapped in a mind-set that sucks them in and won't let go. And all the while he encourages them NOT to let go! Is that what they mean by anal-retentive, or am I asking the wrong guy (thinks - didn't you say you wore a colostomy bag? Ooooops. Bad joke. I hope?)

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:35:48 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: cq Subject: Be grateful...................for your anus, Chris Message:

It's a much maligned organ which is actually perfectly designed for its job. It is conveniently placed, efficiently functional and much under-appreciated. And now for my ''Ode to My Colostomy Bag''.............I'll spare you.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:53:38 (GMT) From: Barry Email: None To: PatC Subject: you can't bring in new people - Amen Message:

Kind of like: Hey Crack? How do I cut my crack intake down to 3 grams a day so I'm not contemplating sticking a 45 in my yap? Drop back to 2 and a half! Wow !Thanks crack!

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:46:18 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: PatC Subject: M has saves lives, but it's those suicidal doubts Message:

that will get you everytime. It's sad, but true. And it's because everyone knows that there is something wrong with the Big Show that they really cannot mention publically.

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:23:06 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joe Subject: I remember that mess well Message:

I didn't have it straight which program it was, but I remember some program not beginning on time and people being herded around and treated like idiots. It was hard for everyone. And I vaguely remember Smith and others running around waving their arms. You are right -- the attention to detail obscures looking at the big picture. People who get caught in this trap aren't successful in business or in life. The old can't see the forest for the trees thing. Unfortunately, on top of everything else, I think the lard has obsessive-compulsive disorder. This is an awful disorder that can have people fighting just to function. There was a recent employment case in the US somewhere where a worker's disorder became so complete that she sometimes couldn't get to work (she had elaborate rituals that have to do with dressing and grooming), or couldn't get there for enough hours per day because of the rituals. There have been stories of people who are paralyzed by the fear of what will happen if they don't clean their house enough before they go to work, so they actually start calling in sick, or come in late because of the disorder. It seems that he may have it, along with a huge ego. One thing is for certain, he certainly is a match to gasoline as far as encouraging that sort of debilitating, paralyzing, compulsive behavior in others. Uggghhh! Good post. love, f

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:16:42 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Yeah, marge hates mess and probably fears it.. Message:

You may be right, Francesca about the obsessive-compulsive symtpoms. There have been a few posts over recent years, from people who have watched him close up, of Maharaji's apparent fear of germs and never wanting to open a door for himself. (Not in the sense of needing a servant to do everything for him, but in his reluctance to touch a strange door handle.) As I said, there have only been a few such reports of this since few premies get close enough to observe this behaviour first hand but it fits your analysis perfectly. I wonder if Michael Dettmers could comment on this...? Very Howard Hughes, though. Reclusive millionaire with obsessive fear of many things - not least his own mortality. How he'll deal with his own star waning and the cult crumbling is anyone's guess. Time to finally face those germs, I reckon.

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 23:08:32 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I think Donner had a story Message:

Nigel: I believe Donner had a story in one of the threads about spontaneously shaking margey's hand, and margey acting really strange, like Donner had cooties or something. I recall that Donner said something about M holding his hand funny after that, almost like he had to go wash it. I could be wrong, but your description triggered my memory of the hand shaking incident. I don't have a bookmark to Sir Dave's awesome search engine on this computer so I'm not sure exactly where it is. Kind of reminds me of an eccentric old woman downtown who wears socks over her hands, even in the summertime. She kind of shuffled around downtown. She may have gotten too old to do her walks, because I haven't seen her for a while. Cheers, and don't hurry on that RT tape. You've got some mending to do. I've been in very minor scrapes and they were scary enough. --f

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:04:50 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Hi Fran--I came to the same conclusion=OCD Message:

Hi Francesca, I put my post up above without reading through the thread to see what others had to say (not always the best policy when posting!), and looks like you beat me to the suggestion of OCD. It could explain his obsessive collecting of materialistic things such as watches and automobiles, couldn't it? Since he has almost unlimited means at his disposal (thanks to all the willing slaves) his compulsions to acquire bigger and better and more know no ends. If he can't handle shaking hands with people, I wonder how he handles the germs from thousands of them kissing his feet? But then maybe he's developed this phobia FROM thousands of people kissing his feet, a fear of being touched by strangers? I wouldn't be surprised. Just attempting a little armchair psychoanalysis/speculation here.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 07:39:44 (GMT) From: Nick Email: None To: Joy Subject: Hi Fran--I came to the same conclusion=OCD Message:

It's been a long time since I kissed the feet, but I seem to remember M wearing socks (which were pretty grubby by the time I got there). A few days ago my eldest son (26) was talking with a work colleague and somehow they found out that they were both children of premies. He rang me up later in the evening to tell me about this and towards the end of the conversation he asked me whether we (my wife and I) had ever made him kiss M's feet - I think he was totally shocked that such things went on. As a parent I know I got lots of things wrong, but it was to my true delight that I was able to tell him that I would never have inflicted that upon him. After the call, I couldn't help but ponder the psychological damage I might have caused by forcing him to conform to these practices. The relief in his voice was palapble when I assured him his lips were still pure!

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:42:07 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Nick Subject: Wow Nick -- M free lips! Message:

Always like the stories of children of premies. Although I have no children, I have a curiosity as to what was inflicted on them. Of course, your story brings me relief! I do know there is a lot of mindbending in all religions, so ex-premies should not get too far into guilt tripping. The Catholic church did a number on me. Of course, even that church is not quite the same as it was when I was a child. That being said, the pope JUST recently apologized to the Orthodox Catholics. Oy! After all these centuries, what the hell good is that? It does very little good for all the people who died so long ago there aren't even any bones left. --f

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:03:50 (GMT) From: Free Email: None To: Joe Subject: The Looks, the appearence of heaven Message:

Get a laugh. I had to type and print in a rush invitations for a public event and I thought I did a pretty good job. The invitations were placed on the information table and at some point a premie starts laughing very loud while reading it. I wrote: You Are Invited to A Pubic Event. ROFL!! PUBIC. Where is the L??? There was such a neurotic way of doing things perfect, always. It took three people five hours to make a pillow for maharaji's feet at a program. Can you imagine making a pillow with no wrinkles? All in his world is centered in creating a stage to appear inmaculate and innocent, nevertheless now as ex-premies we know there is nothing clean about his cult of dirty deceipt. In Argentina he chew premie's up for not caring properly for some trees at La Tierra del Amor and the trees where dying, and he got angry at the premies when in reality it was his fault. I was myself at the land and knowing landscaping is obvious that its soil sucks. It was his mistake to buy such a cheap land. Maharaji bragged in a video that he bought La Tierra del Amor because it was cheap and you think he would have some brains to blame himself for the trees not growing, but no. It was the premies fault that they were dying. I will like to know what happened in that community because I heard that premies responsible for it got very sad and felt guilty, when it was not even their fault: The soil is sandy and full of clay which doesn't allow well drainage and their roots got rotten. There you have it. Our full of compassion, all knowing god, maharaji. He was viciously angry. I have somewhere the video. It was a participation one. Is all about appearing classy and good, because then he can brag and manipulate others to serve to. Do you remember when he in almost every program used to tell people how all gets done and invited them to be part of it? Money baby!! Good bussiness man the lard. (I want my money back still!!!) Good post Joe. :)

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:36:53 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Free/Joe Subject: The Looks, the appearence of heaven Message:

You are so right. It's all about the *appearance' of things. It's like dysfunctional families where mom and dad are obsessed with looking perfect to the world but things are very dark indeed behind closed doors. I really think premies' brains are affected so that they can't see the big picture. All that meditating and stuff makes a person lose their sense of direction (Joy said Margaret Singer said this about M's cult and it's so true). IF they saw the big picture they would be out of there. So there you have it, they are doomed to be like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off, responding to M's 'crisis managerial style,' not seeing the forest for the trees, and taking the blame for M's neurotic demands.

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:40:17 (GMT) From: Free Email: None To: Helen Subject: You got it!! NT Message:

SB

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:11:15 (GMT) From: cq Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk To: Free Subject: willing to transcribe that video for you, Free Message:

and show his 'viciously angry' manipulation to all. (email above)

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:03:44 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Joe Subject: Narcissism Message:

Your story is a very good example of how 'ye shall know him by his fruits'. Uptight, Nazi, frantic, blaming, angry. I also remember taking some interested professional people to an intro night at the Alton Road offices on Miami Beach mid-80's. A friend was giving the pep talk and I cringed at how uptight he was attempting to say just the right thing. Seeing M's world through another's eyes was an early 'drip' but I thought selfishly 'at least I don't have to go through that to get knowledge'. I cannot fathom what it must be like now. I think all of the anal retentivness (impeccability requirement) is a deep need of the premies to be 'perfect'. It was for me and ultimately almost fried me until I accepted my imperfections and started living. Possibly it's because of childhood emotional wounds that drives someone to seek a perfect world free from the wounding or a narcissist's not liking his/her reflection - whatever. M - the perfect narcissist who only wants his reflection to be perfect - plays on that, giving people an ever higher bar of impeccability. The fact is (and pardon my yelling) YOU WILL NEVER REACH THE GOAL OF PERFECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!. M hasn't and you won't , so STOP TRYING AND REALLY ENJOY YOUR LIFE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE, TOO LATE!!!!! Man, I feel better now.

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:41:46 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Richard Subject: Narcissism Message:

God, Richard, you are so right. That need for perfection drove me crazy too. Being the perfect spiritual person is such a heavy trip. It's too much of a burden to place on a human being IMO. I now settle for 'pretty darn good' and run the other way when religious people tell me what I must do to be a real 'Christian' or a real believer etc. I run for them thar hills! I agree--enjoy life in all its imperfectness before it's too late! The bar was raised too high and the expectations were too much. I think that now in my life, to be a fair and decent human being is as high as I can muster. That's enough of a stretch, no need to attain sainthood anymore!

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 21:42:48 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Helen Subject: 'Sainthood' - qu'est-ce que c'est? Message:

Well said, Helen. And I think you could go further still - I mean this whole notion of 'sainthood' (what's THAT when it's at home?!) being attainable and embodied in either the attention to devotions and dogma, or via pretend illumination under the blanket (I prefer torch and comics;) As I said (or at least meant) in my thread post lower down if anyone deserves the 'saint' label it can only be measured in behaviour focused at the general good of others. In those terms atheists can be saints too (eg. Nehru), not that they'd want to be described as such, of course. Anything else carrying those colours is a pile of ego-wank, IMO. Not so much the bar being set too high as set up in the wrong sports arena, or something... BTW: I'll email you with news and stuff soon. Best, Nige

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:14:20 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: 'Sainthood' - qu'est-ce que c'est? Message:

Yeah, that sainthood thing is very, very hard to define. There is this guy at my old church, an atheist guy, who is the most clear-minded guy you will ever meet. He organizes all kinds of stuff for the men's homeless shelter and is always reaching out to other people. He's honest about his emotions, his wife recently died and he will tell you he is sad and lonely and that it is hard, yet he is still getting out and living each day and embracing the new. This guy has got to be almost 70. Who is to say that he isn't a saint? He is to me. When I see him, I just feel good. He makes me feel cared for and he is interested in what I have to say. He is engaged in living and has values that are good. Yet he wouldn't qualify for traditional sainthood because he believes the notion of God is vanity on the part of man. Yet he is the one I would like to emulate, not the one who sits in an ashram, detached from humanity petal, waiting for wisdom to drip from the Master's feet. That one, I say, is a fool, not a saint. Those saints who were crazy for the love of God, well maybe they were just crazy. Or maybe they did have a clue, I don't know, I don't know them personally. But I do know Charlie (the guy from my old church). Look forward from hearing from you! Hope everything is good with you. Helen

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:19:29 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Helen Subject: Enlightenment Message:

I think the whold idea of enlightenment, which is what M is ultimately pushing (realization of Knowledge) is a waste of time. Has anyone actually ever attained enlightenment (apart from the past major incarnations, of course, and that's certainly subject to lots of debate)? I used to look at some of the higher-up more devotional premies/initiators and think that if they couldn't do it, what chance did lowly old I have of ever doing it? Then when I studied Buddhism and got acquainted with all the theories about how many lifetimes it can take to achieve it, I just felt defeated and why bother? I agree with you Helen, that being integrated with life and being a *good* person is what sainthood and enlightenment is all about and the best we can strive for. As Van Morrison sang: 'Enlightenment, don't know what it is'. (one of my favorite of his songs and albums)

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:39:25 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joy Subject: Enlightenment vs Judeo Christian perspective Message:

The Judeo Christian ideal seems to be that we can only try our best, and the Judeo Christian perspective seems to be that saints are formed by God's grace. So I don't think we have to worry too much abotu being saints. The Buddhist and Hindu stuff kind of makes me feel hopeless too, that detachment thing is just not human-centered and healthy and the idea of all those lifetimes just makes me tired. I don't want to come back!!!! Just read a book of the novelist Walker Percy's essays, which contains some very interesting essays on why he became Catholic. He has alot to say about the enduring qualities of Judeo-Christian thought, especially the fact that the individual is respected. I just love that guy. He's so brilliant, he makes me want to sit down and write.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 02:08:03 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Joy Subject: Enlightenment Message:

Here I am in my next life as a lowly bug. I think I like it here!!!

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:30:45 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: This is a classic cause of suicide, as well Message:

I have read that a high profile for suicide is a first born child who has a parent (especially a mother) that they slavishly try to please, and can never seen to please. Add the fact that the child is a perfectionist, and which came first, the chicken or the egg? I fit the profile but lived through it. The suicides don't just happen during say, the teens. If the pattern keeps repeating itself, the suicide can happen later in life, but the seeds were sown in early childhood. So I went from a parent I couldn't please in my childhood (she's since mellowed out and is quite pleased with me, and all of her children), to a few years break and many years with a lard I couldn't please. As with the abuse patterns we've already discussed, this is another neurosis he sucked us right into. double yuck. And feel free to YELL all YA WANT! --love, f

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 20:46:24 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Francesca Subject: This is a classic cause of suicide, as well Message:

So true. The unpleasable parent. What a a trap that is. Older children have it rough, IMO, and usually end up in this role, as 'overfunctioners', who must always be perfect, and never make a mistake. So nice to be one of the flakey younger children in my family--ha ha! No seriously, I get anxious watching people try so hard to please their unpleasable parents, working themselves to the bone. SOmetimes the bond between a child and their abusive/unpleasable parent is so strong that it's unhealthy. Hard to break out of it--glad your mom mellowed out.

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 21:01:27 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Helen Subject: You are on to something important here H and F Message:

Suicide as a result of perfectionism plus the unpleasable parent tie-in. Very interesting pathology that many of us portrayed. I'm struck by how, in effect, I committed social suicide - I 'killed' the old me so I could be reborn as a 'perfect' spiritual person. I was no longer Richard the mediocre son, I became Richard the devotee of the Perfect Master. This was the 'ego must die' myth that was perpetrated by the hard core seekers of the day and still is implied, if subtly. Only M is important and if you lack understanding then you are unsychronized = in your mind. Thank God I didn't have to wear orange robes or change my name to SatGanga or Mahatma GuruPujanand.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:06:54 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Richard Subject: social suicide, so, so true... n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 00:05:52 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Richard Subject: You are on to something important here H and F Message:

Dying to ourselves is something I think we all did. We tried to die to ourselves and avoid whatever identity work we should have been doing in our 20s. Instead of coming to terms with how your parents made you feel mediocre, following M made you feel like you were someone who had a major clue. I had the opposite problem. My parents had VERY rarified goals for all of their children. Far from being mediocre, we were expected to be first rate artists and writers. Lo and behold the real world with its rough rules set in, and I was ill-equipped to deal with life on life's terms. So I avoided all the messy questions by following M. I'm still trying to deal with those messy questions and trying to write for me rather than for my father. Isn't life messy?

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 23:18:54 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: Not to mention Mahatma Gitanand Message:

Richard: Now there's a name! Don't go to the UK with that one! Interesting thought, the social suicide. And the concept of being reborn as something we're not--really. There's a lot of wiggle room there also. Hmmmm. Hard to come out of it too, after spending anywhere from 10 - 25 years as a hard core member of a cult. But come out of it we did! It seems like I was born having to be myself, and I've spent hecka time trying to avoid it. I had to be something more perfect, after all. Like, uh like, like .... a devotee of the perfect Master, perhaps!

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 01:44:59 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Mahatma Gitanand Message:

What about him? I remember him as a very cute 19 yr old with an almost square skull who was begging m. to go to the west when I was in India in '72. Eventually he made it and I guess he did not do very well. He was quite frank about his difficulty about sex, seeing all these very attractive women in for him very provocative outfits. I don't know what happened but eventually he got kicked out. I have seen him the last time in Essen, Germany in civilian clothes. he looked very overwhelmed.('77??) I don't know if he did bad things, but I still have warm feelings for him and I think he did not have a clue what he was in for... Anybody knows what became of him?

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:38:00 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Bob Subject: Mahatma Gitanand Message:

Hi Bob For about 6 months before I got knowledge I used to do full time service in the upstairs cafe at the Palace of Peace. I carried on for a little while after getting knowledge before moving into an ashram. Anyway, as a result, I used to see all the mahatmas and celebs because the kitchen was next door to the mahatmas flat.So , for example, I was around when mahatma Ved pravaktanand was tied up and gagged by ashokand and Glen et al. We ( mainly a really nice girl called Julie and myself) were told to keep it all hush hush.Ved was really ' freaking out ' as we used to say :) Some sexual indiscretions on his part but I didn't get to know the full details. I think he was shipped off back to India ( not sure if it was Fedex or DHL :)) ) Anyway ..I'm rambling, sorry ....Gitanand.....I know he's had a bit of flak from this forum somewhere or other but he was the ONLY one of the mahatmas I kinda liked. Mainly because I felt a bit sorry for him. The poor guy was clearly out of his depth in the west. He was a genuine Indian ' peasant' boy ( I did actually manage to talk to him once about things). He was pretty much un-educated and plucked from an Indian village circa 15th/ 16th century and plonked into East Dulwich, 20th century with a bunch of ex-acid head Guji fanatics. Yeah, I think he liked the ladies.....the last thing I heard , he was de-robed by the fat one because he was having a fling with a German premie. I think he eventually married her. Not sure if they lived happily ever after and had a bunch of Indo German kiddies. I'm sure that snobby shithole Yogaand gave Gitaanad a pretty hard time. Probably Yoganand is a Brahmin ( not certain, just guessing )and Gitanand is probably of low caste....maybe not 'untouchable' but pretty close. Incidentally, fuck face Yogaanad was the one who revealed the k to me. I guess after a few months of trying to get a 'pranam' out of me he gave up in desperation. He used to really get off on people pranaming to him and begging for k. Due to our close proximity we used to brush by each other many a time. I remember one particular time rushing up the stairs to do something or other and nearly knocking him over as he was descending .....I thought of 'begging' him and ' pranaming' then thought, fuck it. We just eyeballed each other and continued on our way :) When I was eventually chosen ( after months of brainwashing haha ) he didn't pick me out individually. He just swept his arms about and chose a section from the group. At the time I figured guji chops was teaching me humility....I wasn't worthy to be individually chosen so he used yoganand as channel and selected me as an afterthought :) Funnily enough Yoganad was one of the first to flip out when the Holy , Divine being Durga Ji arrived on the scene. By that time I was in Leicester ashram and working for Divine Sales in a shop and city market stall. The news actually made it into the Daily Mirror national newspaper. I thought it was pretty cool. Yoganand was staying at Leicester ashram for a few days. I rememeber him being totally gobsmacked by the news. I can still picture it now.....Yogashit holding up the Daily Mirror ..... 'what's this ?? what's this ?? The Lord of the Universe marrying an American Airline hostess ?? !! ....I guess all his hindu basis for living was removed by that one event ! He reminded me of the computer HAL (2001) .....losing it. Ahhh those great souls we crazy western barbarians were so graced to encounter !! Memeories are made of this .....sweet sweet the memories you gave me ......sweet sweet the memeories you gave me. Best Wishes Dermot

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 08:50:55 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: mailto:wolfgang.oed@stadt.erlangen%20de To: Bob Subject: Mahatma Gitanand Message:

Hi Bob and everyone who will read! I know Gitanand was a very funny character. For me he looked like how the young Buddha would have looked like once according to my imagination.I Remember him once going to Rome, he was joking all time with everyone who was coming his way. He tried to explain the busdriver why all this crazy guys go to Rome to see their Guru. 'Oh yeah Italians love Spaghetti and we love our Guru' I think the bus driver understands that we are at least some people who still like jokes and laughter. But he seems not allways so funny, and maybe his humor allready was a need to stand all this absurdity he was in. What we heard we heard was that he fell in love with the Ashramummy from Frankfurt ( or Manheim/Hidelberg) but it did't worke out and he freaked out. The next thing I heard was that he commited suicide. This was a schock for us premies cause we still believed at this time, that a Mahatma is a realized soul (whatever this might be, somehow something wonderfull) But stupid as we were, we found a simple explanation:' He failed to hold on to M. and the result was that his soul broke in 1000 pieces, so that even M. could not put it together again. But now comes the interesting part of what I know, cause I was present when Jagdeo talked about it. Gitanand wanted to speak with M. but M. does not want to speak personally with Gitanand, so they arranged a phonesession where Jagdeo was in the middle. M was on one end of a phoneline, Jagdeo in the middle, and on another phone poor young Gitanand. But how Jagdeo presented this story to us humble followers of Lord M. was in a way, so that we could be deeply impressed by the compassion M. has even with fallen mahatmas. This explanation filled us again with divine understanding, so that no further questions had come up. During the following years I tried to get some information to hear something about Gitanand. So far I know he stayed or stays in Frankfurt, had or stil has a hard time to make his living. I once saw him, sad, broken, with a plasicbag and I was to shy to talk with him. This would never happen I think cause I'm now much clearer abuot this whole trip. I've overcome this insecure feeling towards anything that has to do with M and my premiebrothers and sisters. No need to run no need to hide. warm regards to everyone out ther in the world wide web .....wolfie

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:59:39 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Danke schon, wolfie. Empfang. (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:03:42 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Mahatma Gitanand - can you confirm this? Message:

You said he commited suicide. Do you know this for certain? Where did this happen? I ask because he first taught me how to meditate, not that I do it much these days. John.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 07:51:25 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: mailto:wolfgang.oed@stadt.%20erlangen.de To: JHB Subject: Mahatma Gitanand - can you confirm this? Message:

Hi JHB, Yes I can confirm this, I think a lot of people in Frankfurt know this. I don't know the exact circumstances and I can't remember the name of the ashramummy. But I remember clearly the story Jagdeo told us, that M did't want to speak with Gitanand in the hospital, so one of the three arranged the strange phonesession I think it was Jagdeo who tried to make it possible that Gitanand could somhow get some connection to his Boss. How I remember, M said something cross Jagdeo like: gitanand should promise to do it never again. Jagdeo told this story in that sense, how much M cares, even the Lord himsself comes such a long way down to take care for a fallen Mahatma. today I wonder, that I took this without any further questions .........wolfie

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:35:09 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: wolfie Subject: broken english -- boy Mahatma abuse Message:

wolfie, Is that short for Wolfgang? Anyway, please continue to join us on the forum. Broken engish is OK -- I've been on other international forums. Sorry to hear about Gitanand. We now see that M's little crop of boy Mahatmas were also abused by being given that title and sent to the West. So young and sincere. I know Parlokanand, my Mahatma came over at 19. He was said on this forum to be a pedophile, and also got in trouble for having a girlfriend. I suppose M thought it was cute, 14 year old guru with young bald saffron-robed wise men. I am so sorry for all of them, and hope they are as OK as they can be for going through that experience. --f

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 10:44:30 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: wolfgang.oed@stadt.erlangen.de To: Francesca Subject: broken english -- boy Mahatma abuse Message:

Hi Francesca, yes wolfie is the schortform of Wolfgang. But normally only teachers in school call me with that name, specially when they got mad with me. Of course I will continue to join on the forum. Sometimes it's hard for me to understand all this double meanings properly, sometimes I'm not so sure that I get the right sense out of the messages. But the important things I understand. We all had more or less the same background. We were at the same time on the same places and even maybe we know our faces. I started with Millenium 73 and my last Programm was Amaroo 97 and there I really got sceptical about all this. Since I've found the forum 4 month ago, I'm busy to try to sort things out to clear my bitter sweet history with M and the premies. This Gitanand story is sad. It is tremendious, what lake of normal human behavior is evitent in this story and I'm included. But it shows me how blocked and insecure I was, to communicate my personnel thoughts and feeling, in this time. Hope my process of learning goes on. And I'm glad to have all this people here on the forum. So now the weekend is waiting for me. At home I don't have very much chance to use the computer, because my son is busy with it. So I take 2 days vacation from the forum. The weather is sunny and I'like to spent some time out in the greenery. ciao ......wolfie

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 09:00:30 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Do you mean he tried but failed to commit suicide? Message:

It is not clear. Was he in hospital because he recovered from a suicide attempt? Is he still alive? Bless his saffron socks. He taught me that the nectar technique would develop my inner strength and that I needed to be strong when I was very blue once upon a time.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 15:37:16 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: wolfgang.oed@stadt.erlangen.de To: PatC Subject: he recoverded from his suicide attempt Message:

Hi PatC, sorry for being unclear,this is a languageproblem that blocks me anyway from writing on the forum. Sometimes I did't get the jokes and sometimes it takes to long, besides my work to get the deeper sense ( so far any is there ) It' funny in my lunchbreak this day I thougt to comment your statement, that you don't have a help for free in your restaurant. I thougt I do it three days for free, if there is the chance to have this doggy darshan. I'm right that you live in San Francisco? I never was there? But anyway i like to be in my little town with a lot of friends, so far it is not wintertime. Okay back to Gitanand. He was in the hospital recovering from a suicide attempt. Last things I heard from him, that he tries hard to make his living and that he even tries to support his family in India Don't get rusty in your armchair, you won't anyway ciao ........wolfie

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 17:35:36 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Thanks, wolfie Message:

I did realize that it was a language problem and had guessed that is what you meant but I prefer to know than to guess. So, thanks for explaining. And let me know if you ever come to San Francisco so that I can feed you and give you doggy darshan. ;)

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:38:46 (GMT) From: Chef Boy-Arti Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks, wolfie Message:

And let me know if you ever come to San Francisco so that I can feed you and give you doggy darshan. If you serve him German Shepherd's Pie you could honour his homeland, feed him, and give him darshan all in one shot. Just an idea.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 13:32:29 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: PatC Subject: I hope he failed to commit suicide Message:

He gave me k in 1974. he also stayed at my flat when he visited Jerusalem and I drove him around Israel in 1975. He told me that was made mahatma at 15. I don't think here stood a chance over here. I last saw him in 1975 at Essen. I recognised him hiding under a beautiful flock of black hair and thick black mustauche(sp?). When I grabbed his arm to say hello, he pulled away looking very very very lost. I sincerely hope he is still alive and hope Wolfie will clarify his posts. Jethro

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:51:35 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Thanks wolfie Message:

Wolfie, That was a hearbreaking story. And to think the only reason I was saying Mahatma Gitanand was to make a joke. Git, as in silly git is a brit term, or used to be, in the 70s. So it was funny to have a Mahatma with that name. From your story, not very funny at all. And your reactions would have been my own. Now we see that some of these young Mahatmas were also the victims. Brought into this other culture at a young age, put on a pedestal at a time when a lot of the premies were still getting over 'free love,' and expected to survive. Chilling, really. Thanks again, love, f

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 09:50:22 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Wolfie, just read your post after posting mine Message:

That's sad if Gitanand ended up as a down and out eventual suicide. God ! I knew so many decent people who ended up topping themselves as a result of crossing paths with that fucking guru rawat. I'm sure now that rawat doesnt care about the 'dregs' of humanity he's helped to fuck up along the way. Those ' dregs' deserve more love and respect than ......what an asshole I was to reserve love and respect for him. OUCH !!!!!! Cheers Dermot

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