Jerry -:- The wisdom of Kabir -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:08:42 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Bhakti and Tamy Faye Bakker -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 08:39:58 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Bhakti and Tamy Faye Bakker -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:38:05 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Shiva, Bhakti and Bacchus -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:02:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Shiva, Bhakti and Bacchus, Jerry and cq -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:35:42 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- More about Kabir -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:33:52 (GMT)

__ __ Gregg -:- The most popular poet in America is... -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:38:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- The most popular poet in America is...Gibran -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:02:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- The most popular poet in America is...Dr. Seuss?nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:10:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- Rumi -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:28:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Flipper -:- Rumi -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Catch you on the flip, Flip! -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:27:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- ...Eminem? (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:43:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- sadly--i concur.......nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:33:53 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- More about Kabir -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 00:02:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- A few good men -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:30:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- More about Kabir -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:12:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- More about Kabir -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:36:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- but it dont jell with reality -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:55:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yep, blue in the face holding my breath, bill NT -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:34:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hello, fellow nite-owl -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:13:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hello, fellow nite-owl -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:46:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hello, fellow nite-owl -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:51:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hello, fellow nite-owl -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:50:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oh, and I'm from Queens, Jersey boy (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:57:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You get into Manhatten much? (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:26:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I work there -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:36:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Your e-mail is...? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:40:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oops! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:39:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Sandy took the red pill AND the blue pill. nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:55:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- And heard the horns of elfland blowing nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 20:59:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Matirx this, Baz -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:01:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ****Sandy's post -- Best of Forum **** (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:36:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- *Sandy's post -- Best of Forum * (nt) Hea hear -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 10:32:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hi dick-shun-airy boy -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:14:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- sadly, i concur.......nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:34:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Well, lift your head up Janet! -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 08:02:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- sadly, i disagree -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:28:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I AM -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:38:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- NO, SANDY, NO. NO, NO, NO! -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:57:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Awesome Post, Janet, (apart from the... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:56:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- So Janet -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:22:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ An observer -:- A word, Janet... and Sandy -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:49:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- A Warning, 'Observer' -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 22:08:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Why do you post as the FA and not in YOUR name? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:12:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Why anon? Because of experience. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:23:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Double standard -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:08:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- went to Easter Party:bit off a choco-bunny's head -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 00:16:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You were the only premie involved -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:13:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- And P.S., I don't even know if you call yourself.. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:15:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Observer -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:56:21 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- More about Kabir -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- sadly, i concur.......nt -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:35:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- More about Kabir -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:52:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- More about Kabir -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:11:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- To JHB the gatekeeper -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:42:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- To Sandy the alky at the gate -:- Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:31:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I'd rather be the alky at the gate... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:23:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'People on the path', Sandy? Hilarious! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 03:55:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Glad to bring some mirth into your sad life. (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:24:11 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- Kabir:one accepting riches is NOT perfect Master!! -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 19:03:30 (GMT)

__ __ W. C. Fields -:- A rich man is ..... -:- Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 20:20:56 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 18:08:42 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The wisdom of Kabir Message:

I've been trying to find more information on the Dharamdasis, a cult similar to the Radhasoamis, when I came across this anecdote on how the paths of Dharam Das and his master Kabir first met. It's a story you can be certain Maharaji would never, ever tell. Read it yourself and guess why. (hint: I've bolded the section that explains why for those who can't guess). Dharam Das was a very wealthy merchant and he was also a very good person, a very religious-minded person. Within his heart he had the desire to do the devotion of God and he would always yearn to meet God Almighty. That is why he always used to do the rites and rituals and whatever practices he could do. He was worshipping idols and one day while he was worshipping Kabir Sahib appeared there. He asked him, 'Dharam Das, these big idols are like the pounds. Are the small ones like the ounces? Are they going to liberate you?' When Kabir Sahib said that, Bibi Amin, Dharam Das' wife, got upset with Kabir and said, 'Why do you criticize my husband?' Kabir Sahib said, 'If you are trying to cross this ocean of life by getting into a boat made of stone, you will never succeed.' Saying that He disappeared. After He disappeared Dharam Das realized that what Kabir Sahib had said was true. Dharam Das used to wash his firewood before burning it to perform a religious rite, and I myself used to do that when I was involved in the rites and rituals. After some time he was once again doing his worship. So when he was doing that, again Kabir Sahib appeared there and said, 'Dharam Das, why are you sinning so much? You are a great sinner.' Bibi Amin didn't like that again and she said, 'How dare you call my husband a sinner. You are a sinner; he is not a sinner.' Kabir Sahib said, 'Okay, but before you burn the wood at least cut the wood and see what you are doing.' And then, after saying that, He once again disappeared. When Dharam Das cut the wood he saw thousands of creatures there. He was going to burn them alive and in that way he was going to do a great sin. Then Dharam Das realized that the sadhu who had been appearing was a true Sadhu, so he got upset with Bibi Amin and he said, 'You always come in the middle. If you had not taunted Him, if you had not said anything to that Sadhu, I would have asked Him to give me some knowledge of God and He would have taught me to do the real devotion of Lord. But you always say something that makes that Sadhu disappear.' She said, 'Well, don't worry. As the flies come to where there is something sweet, in the same way if you perform a yajna and invite all the sadhus, they will come there expecting food and clothes and things like they [usually] do.' Since he was a very wealthy merchant, Dharam Das performed many yajnas, many rites and rituals, in the town of Mathura and in many different places in search of that Sadhu. But Kabir Sahib did not come to any of the feasts, any of the yajnas, which Dharam Das had organized. All those yajnas were very expensive; at each of the yajnas many sadhus would come and get food and clothes and donations of money, so gradually all the money that Dharam Das had started to run out. And finally, after performing the last yajna, when all his money was spent, Dharam Das thought, 'What is the use of my living? - because I neither got the Sadhu for whom I was searching, nor do I have my money now. So it is better for me just to leave this world.' So he went to the bank of the river Ganges in Kashi. When he went there he saw that Sadhu, Who was Kabir Sahib. He went to Kabir Sahib and said, 'You see, I have spent all the money I had in search for You, but I did not find You. If I had met You earlier when I had the money I would have given You all that and I would have served You.' Kabir Sahib said, 'Dharam Das, this was the appropriate time; this is in accordance with the Will of Lord. God Almighty wanted you to meet me at this time when you did not have any money. Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu. So this was the appropriate time and this is in the Will of Lord that you have met me at this time.' Then Kabir Sahib initiated both Dharam Das and Bibi Amin. They did their meditation, and after Kabir Sahib left, Dharam Das was authorized to give the Naam Initiation. So, Maharaji, tell THAT story about your favorite sadhu at you next gathering, why don't you?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 08:39:58 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Bhakti and Tamy Faye Bakker Message:

If you look up the meaning of the word ''bahkti'' you will see that it means ''participation,'' ''devotion'' and also ''religion.'' It is the oldest form of Hinduism and dates back to pre-Vedic times. The Aryan colonizers of the Harappas in the Indus valley tried to stamp out Siva-bhakti. The original bhaktas were the followers of Siva. Siva lived like a vagabond and often walked around naked, laughing and dancing. Eventhough he was usually dirty and drunk, he still managed to seduce the sons and daughters of the sensible families of the day. He was hated and reviled by all but those who fell under his spell. He lived on Mt Nysa in the Himalayas. Dionysus (god of Nysa) was equally detested by the ancient Greek equivalent of the bourgeoisie. His followers were known as bacchantes (from which the Romans took the name Bacchus and applied it to their version of ''Dionysus.'') The root of bhakti and bacchante is bak, meaning participant, initiate or member. In his book, ''Gods of Love and Ecstasy,'' Alain Danielou proposes that Sivism/Dionysusism was the old religion of people before they had to live in co-operation. Shared irrigation projects required rules and regulations and bodies of laws were developed. Thus began agriculture-based civilization. The Aryans introduced their law-abiding Vedic god Vishnu in an attempt to get rid of Siva but ended up by having to compromise and adopt Siva into their pantheon. Danielou continues by introducing the old theory that the more civilized Apollo was used in a similar fashion by the ancient Greeks to supplant Dionysus. The worship of Dionysus died out with the Hellenic era but Sivism has lasted in India to this day. Nearly all of the old rituals are still practiced in small villages untouched by the 21st century. The only ritual that has not been practiced for centuries is bull sacrifice (common to both Sivism and Dionysusism) because of the Vedic proscription against killing cattle. Even the killing of a bull was an act of worship and the flesh was eaten raw accompanied with lots of booze and sex orgies. The worship of human gods, cows, snakes, monkeys and rivers is still there in India underneath it's cities' veneers of modernity. Bhakti, ecstatic participation in worship and devotion, is as natural to a Hindu as worship of sports idols and movie stars is to us. To put bhakti in proportion just rent the video ''The Eyes of Tammy Faye'' to see the western equivalent. When Tammy Faye sings ''Praise the Lord'' she transports her audience into throes of divine love for Jesus and the participants eyes are as shiny as any darshan-drunk premies and their tears are just as sincere.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:38:05 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: PatC Subject: Bhakti and Tamy Faye Bakker Message:

Thanks for that, Pat. This is cool stuff, getting a bead on the world the Lord Of The Universe (aka Maharaji) comes from, eh? But I'm wondering if you think Siva was an actual person. He wasn't, so far as I know. He was a God who, supposedly, lived in the mountains, the Supreme Yogi, Lord Of Creatures. Actual worship of human beings (as if they were Siva, or Shiva, as he came to be known) didn't begin until Kabir and Guru Nanak's time, sometime during the 13th century, unless you've been able to place bhakti yoga sometime earlier than that, which is different than just plain bhakti which has always been devotion to the Gods. Bhakti Hinduism consists, primarily, of devotion to three main Gods, Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the maintainer), and Shiva (the destroyer). Remember Maharaji' GOD, Generator, Operator, and Destroyer? Well, now you know where he got it from. Talk about a ripoff, huh.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 15:02:32 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: PatC Subject: Shiva, Bhakti and Bacchus Message:

Fascinating correlations there, Pat. The worship of Bacchus/Dionysius also involved wild celebrations of sex - orgies, I guess you'd call them, except that they were expressions of religious fervour. Compare with the worship of Shiva, whose phallic 'lingam' or penis is a centrepoint of many a Hindu temple (Shiva also being the originator of 'Tantric' sex). Shiva and his consort Shanti go together like lingam and yoni, but who, I wonder, was Bacchus' consort?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 17:35:42 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: cq Subject: Shiva, Bhakti and Bacchus, Jerry and cq Message:

Yes, Jerry, Shiva (like Dionysus) was a mythological being who lived for 25,000 years and may have been a conglomerate of several gods. There were also three versions of Dionysus. Vishnu's incarnations, the avatars Krishna and Rama, were also probably mythological but they were worshipped as human gods. I think you are right that Kabir formulated the modern ''religion'' of guru-worship but it had been around since the Upanishads where it is often mentioned. cq, I have only studied the Greeks not the Romans so I have no idea if Bacchus had a consort. Dionysus had a fling with Ariadne but was usually depicted as having only fauns and satyrs as his companions. It seems he was a queer old lecher. Bacchus of course was transformed from the beautiful Dionysian youth into a typical obese Roman debauchee. The Romans were more hedonistic than the Greeks and worshipped him mostly as the god of wine and not the Mysteries.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:33:52 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: More about Kabir Message:

I got inspired to look up some things about Kabir on the net and this is some of what I found....please forgive the spacing, that's how it copied over. Sandy Six hundred years ago Kabir was born in India in 1398 AD. He lived for 120 years and is said to have relinquished his body in 1518. This period is also said to be the beginning of Bhakti Movement in India. A weaver by profession, Kabir ranks among the world's greatest poets. Back home in India, he is perhaps the most quoted author. The Holy Guru Granth Sahib contains over 500 verses by Kabir. The Sikh community in particular and others who follow the Holy Granth, hold Kabir in the same reverence as the other ten Gurus. (Click Here for Guru Nanak's Japuji Sahib). Kabir openly criticized all sects and gave a new direction to the Indian philosophy. This is due to his straight forward approach that has a universal appeal. It is for this reason that Kabir is held in high esteem all over the world. To call Kabir a universal Guru is not an over exaggeration. To me personally, the very name Kabir means Guru's Grace. I have been personally very deeply influenced by reading Kabir. Comments reveal my feelings and also, how this idea of my translating Kabir's verses, came into its being. Inspite of the simplicity of Kabir's poetry, I must say, it is hard to translate. I humbly present some of his dohas, love songs and mystic poems, in the following pages. I welcome your comments and feedback. Please note that what you see today is only a beginning. As we move along, more verses will be added on regular basis. It is my intention to include every possible known verse of Kabir on this site. This is not an easy task as according to rough estimates there are over 700 verses of Kabir. But I will try my best to do it. It may take its own time though. Please send us your feedback. Thank you, Rajender Krishan New York, September, 1999 Top The hall mark of Kabir's poetry is that he conveys in his two line poems (Doha), what others may not be able to do in many pages. Another beauty of Kabir's poetry is that he picks up situations that surround our daily lives. Thus, even today, Kabir's poetry is relevant and helpful in guiding and regulating our lives, in both social and spiritual context. The following example is an apt illustration: calatI ca@kI doKkr, idyaa kbaIra raoe du[- paTna ko baIca maoM, saabaut bacaa na kaoe Looking at the grinding stones, Kabir laments In the duel of wheels, nothing stays intact. Note to our Readers: While presenting the Kabir Pages., I have shown the verses in Hindi (using Shusha fonts), and alongside in 'Roman' English. Below is given the translation of the verse and then 'My Understanding' of the verse. In order that you may be able to read the Hindi verses, please ensure that you download the Shusha Hindi Fonts. You can download them by clicking on the links given below: – Shusha.ttf – Shusha02.ttf – Shusha05.ttf

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:38:17 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Sandy Subject: The most popular poet in America is... Message:

Rumi. That's what I heard, anyway. Rumi, the bestseller. I would rate Rumi higher than Kabir, myself. His poetry is more wide-ranging and more surprising and more strange than any religious or devotional poetry I've ever read. (Much less strictly devotional than Kabir) And pretty inspirational, too, if you're into poetry and inspiration.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:02:40 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Gregg Subject: The most popular poet in America is...Gibran Message:

Khalil Gibran whom Rawat once used to quote. Gibran the fake master who was a figment of his own imagination.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:10:33 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: PatC Subject: The most popular poet in America is...Dr. Seuss?nt Message:

asfjearg

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:28:41 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Rumi Message:

I read a poem about Rumi where he says he can go out into the world and do pretty much whatever the hell he wants to, and then he can go inside and have 'that' experience too. It sounded like a mix of bhakti and hedonism. It seemed to fly in the face of any morality or code of ethics. Could that be the heaven we all sought all our lives? To be able to do whatever the hell we want to do and still be able to connect with our Creator within with no weirdness or guilt? I am too programmed in the Judeo-Christian thing to buy that as the new reality for this Millenium. But who knows? Maybe our desitny is to become more like the society of dolphins, very smart, very playful, very sexually active, very inquisitive, and very adaptable, without all the external inhibitions of uptight dogma systems... It's late and I may be rambling a bit, Gregg, but do you get my drift? Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:57:18 (GMT) From: Flipper Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Rumi Message:

But who knows? Maybe our desitny is to become more like the society of dolphins, very smart, very playful, very sexually active, very inquisitive, and very adaptable, without all the external inhibitions of uptight dogma systems... Come join us, Sandy! Leave these uptight humans behind! EEE, EEEEE, EE, EEEEE!

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:27:44 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Flipper Subject: Catch you on the flip, Flip! Message:

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! Is that a sardine under your fin or are you just happy to see me? But seriously, folks, I have heard that some humans descended from dolphins, not monkeys. I have also heard that dolphins have bones in their flippers that resemble hands....I know there is documentation on this somewhere. Maybe Jim has a reference on this in his ultimate, complete and never-to-be-questioned dick-shun-scary. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEvolution, ohoh, you know, everything's gonna be alright, alright ALRIGHT! Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 01:43:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Gregg Subject: ...Eminem? (nt) Message:

hhhhhh

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:33:53 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: sadly--i concur.......nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 00:02:01 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: More about Kabir Message:

Hi, Sandy, Kabir's poetry might be moving to some, but what I especially dislike about him is that he was one of the pioneers of bhakti yoga. Before him, and others like him, mortals were mortals and gods were gods, and God was God. There were no man/gods. For thousands of years Indian spiritual practices were done by men, and while holy men were revered, they were not worshipped, not before Kabir and others like him. There's a story told, in fact, of how Kabir chose his successors. At a great gathering of his disciples, he wielded a sword in hand, and challenged all present to come forward and offer their heads to their guru. Most were scared out of their wits, but some came forward and offered their heads to prove their devotion. While Kabir didn't actually cut off their heads, this is the way he chose those who would succeed him, five in all, Dharam Das being one of them. Only those willing to die for him did he consider worthy. Fuck him.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:30:46 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: A few good men Message:

Sound like the Marines. Semper fi. Maybe that's what it takes. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:12:37 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jerry Subject: More about Kabir Message:

good points Jerry, also, what can look like a plus, criticising other 'spiritual groups' like kabir did, is typical of those manipulative holier than thou types.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:36:59 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: bill Subject: More about Kabir Message:

'...also, what can look like a plus, criticising other 'spiritual groups' like kabir did, is typical of those manipulative holier than thou types.' -bill Hi bill, I'm not trying to stir the kettle or anything but isn't that what you are doing here? I mean, I am sure you can find enough shit on anyone and everyone who is trying to do anything good in the world if you want to and if you dig hard and deep enough. You can bury every single fucking person in the world with their own crap, even if they are trying to climb out of it and be an asset to the human race. Or you can treat them the way you want to be treated and look for the good. I'm not saying to ignore the things that need to be brought up, but there is a balance... Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 04:55:32 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Sandy Subject: but it dont jell with reality Message:

Hi Sandy, good to read you. I didnt have a problem with your post actually, but after reviewing a large selection of kabir writings, I changed my mind that he was on target. Believe me when I say that in my day to day, I dont wrestle with anothers views on religion. Here, I do. And thanks to my forum training, which as you know is quite strict, things have to stand up to withering scrutiny from a wide array of posters. Not an easy route for a theory on life to take. Not that many of the eastern ideas qualify to the standard usually required to be bestowed the title 'theory'. Hey I dont disagree that he is less tyranical than most, but his influence is really unfortunate. And western translators clean him up for us just like they do to buddha. Reminds me, I owe Pat Conlon a couple detailed posts.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:34:18 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: bill Subject: Yep, blue in the face holding my breath, bill NT Message:

k

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:13:03 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: bill Subject: Hello, fellow nite-owl Message:

bill, I have been reading a book about future stuff and how all the dire predictions don't have to happen if enough people don't buy into the thoughts and put their energy into the good happening instead. Too tired right now to even go upstairs and get it, but if you are interested I will post it later. The author talks about alot of things including warring factions of ET's. Some of them want us humans to self-destruct so they can have this planet, and others want humanity to evolve and for the earth to become illuminated and kick into the 5th dimension (up up and away in my beautiful balloon!) The 'school' planet (which earth has been during this period) would be somewhere else and earth would become a real heaven/haven. Heady stuff, and some here would say it's heady fluff. To each their own. The author talks about the plethora of teachers running around now and he offers ways to check out their authenticity. Like I said, if you are interested, or if anyone else is, I will post the name of the book tomorrow or Sunday. In this season of forgiveness, I am yours truly Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:46:00 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Hello, fellow nite-owl Message:

The author talks about the plethora of teachers running around now and he offers ways to check out their authenticity. Hey, Sandy, this is a guy who's been talking about how all bad predictions don't have to happen (like they all have so far. How many religious groups have predicted the end of the world and other catastrophes that have never come true?). Then you've got him talking about warring factions of ETs. Seriously, Sandy, is this the guy we should turn to for lessons on testing authenticity? What you been smokin', boy?

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 07:51:03 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Hello, fellow nite-owl Message:

The author talks about the plethora of teachers running around now and he offers ways to check out their authenticity. -Sandy Hey, Sandy, this is a guy who's been talking about how all bad predictions don't have to happen (like they all have so far. How many religious groups have predicted the end of the world and other catastrophes that have never come true?). Then you've got him talking about warring factions of ETs. Seriously, Sandy, is this the guy we should turn to for lessons on testing authenticity? What you been smokin', boy? -Jerry Hey Jer, It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. Who are you or I to say it's not so...the ET's and all. Yesterday's science fiction is today's reality and so it goes. Look at that phenom and tell me otherwise. Various ET's could very well be playing out the battle of light and darkness not only here, but elsewhere. Don't be a flat-worlder now, Jer. I'm not saying to believe or not, I'm just saying to be open to new things, because buddy, there's a shitload of stuff you and I both have little to no experience with, but that doesn't make it a crock. Anyway, I have other fish to fry much closer to earth and my life right now, but I'm not forfeiting my freedom to think about anything I want to over it. Just had an American Spirit cigarette, in answer to your smoke inquiry, out on the porch. What part of the world are you in? Sandy PS Ezekiel (Old Testament prophet) documents what sounds very much like the landing of a spacecraft and meeting the travelers. There are fucking ancient carvings in stone in the US and in Mexico and SA of what cannot be anything else but space travelers. This is all documented but society has been dumbed down by the parenting shadow governments who think us mere peons CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH! (Like Jack said....) WhatEVER...yep, there's a banana on the table alright, and it's got an antennae coming out of it...and it's hovering.....

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:50:12 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Hello, fellow nite-owl Message:

Sandy, I'm not saying all that is known has been discovered. No true believer in science, as I consider myself to be, would ever subscribe to such a thing. All I'm saying is that I'd be wary of somebody who claims to have a method for testing authenticity when he believes in such unproven hypothesis.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:57:38 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oh, and I'm from Queens, Jersey boy (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:26:00 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: You get into Manhatten much? (nt) Message:

zzzzzzzzzz

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:36:09 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Sandy Subject: I work there Message:

Email me, Sandy. I'll send you my phone number and we can chat.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:40:49 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Your e-mail is...? Message:

Sorry if I had it and lost it. Mybe we can do lunch sometime.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:39:18 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Oops! Message:

It might help if you had my email address, huh? vze2kmp8@verizon.net

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:55:06 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Sandy took the red pill AND the blue pill. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 20:59:45 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Bazza Subject: And heard the horns of elfland blowing nt Message:

g

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:01:29 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Matirx this, Baz Message:

And you saved the shit and threw the food away. Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 05:36:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sandy Subject: ****Sandy's post -- Best of Forum **** (nt) Message:

ggggggg

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 10:32:10 (GMT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Jim Subject: *Sandy's post -- Best of Forum * (nt) Hea hear Message:

Z

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:14:51 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hi dick-shun-airy boy Message:

I was just browsing some threads I missed reading and came across the one where you are laying down the law of evolution and there is a squabble over whose reference is more right on.... Man, if your head wasn't screwed on your neck it would float away you are so full of hot air! You rmeind me of a Jonathan Swift character in Gulliver's Travels, in the land where they went to war over which end of the egg to crack. Who the hell are you to expound dogma and burn the books of your brethren and sistern herein these cyber halls of this here Forum? And you KNOW that you DON'T KNOW for sure who is who and where we are all from or where we are all going in this vast universe, but you sure do put up a very impressive wall of bullshit and paint it like the ceiling of the fucking Sistine Chapel to make your words seem sanctified, but with a little scrutiny and some clear vision, it becomes obvious that you are just another blind person screaming 'It's over here, not over there!', as you do a one-point head-on into your own bloated ego. Sheesh, I must be channelling Dennis Miller tonight. I know that you are definitely coming from Uranus and have been for a long, long time, notwithstanding anything else going on in the universe. My dictionary is bigger than your dictionary, say you. Yeah man, whip it out right here on the playground! Show me your index and I'll show you mine. For Christ's sake on this Easter weekend, give it a rest, you inflated stuffed skin with a briefcase and a brain. Love to the family, Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:34:45 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Sandy Subject: sadly, i concur.......nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 08:02:28 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: janet Subject: Well, lift your head up Janet! Message:

For only 49.95 you can now learn how to concur happily! Just send your money order (no checks, no cash) and you will receive: one party hat one raspberry crank one pair of groucho glasses with nose and moustache one handshake buzzer one video tape showing you how to use the above one pair of wax lips one pamphet by Professor Oxford on 'happy concurrence' one screensaver of Jim whipping out his big dictionary It's concur, not conquer, silly! That's it! Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:28:20 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Sandy Subject: sadly, i disagree Message:

one party hat ...sorry- i dont wear party hats one raspberry crank ...i hate the taste of raspberry anything. hate the sound of em too one pair of groucho glasses with nose and moustache ...got my own glasses. will probably have my own mustache in a few more years, too one handshake buzzer ...i think those are cruel, not funny one video tape showing you how to use the above ...vcr is broken one pair of wax lips ...I'LL TAKE THE WAX LIPS, THANKS. A BOXFUL one pamphet by Professor Oxford on 'happy concurrence' ...please sandy. dont offer me any more pamphlets. after a lifetime in DLM/EV/VISONS, i never want to see anything in pamphlet form again one screensaver of Jim whipping out his big dic---tionary ...A)I can't use screensavers with webtv ...B)I dont care to see jim whipping out anything of his, thanks It's concur, not conquer, silly! That's it! ...did i say conquer? did i? i didnt hear myself say conquer. you wanna hear me say conquer? ok. VENI, VIDI, VICI there. i said it. sandy, you are the first aries i have ever met who cannot stand forth in strength and declare 'I AM'. i don't think you can think for yourself. I don't think you know how to. all you know how to do is collect and tell of other people's thinking. never your own. you don't know your own mind. a man your age ought to have strong thoughts of his own. he ought to know how he thinks, what he thinks, about things. no one can do your thinking for you, yet you seem to keep going on, trying on this person's and that person's thoughts, looking for someoe's that feel good, so you can adopt them, never realizing that you will only knowwhat you think, with your own brain, when you finally stand fast, where you are, and think on your own!

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:38:12 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: janet Subject: I AM Message:

Hi Janet, You don't mind if I cap your name do you? I just think it's more respectful symbolically and you deserve respect. I understand your thing about the Aries take a stand thing. I believe that to experience real balance, a person needs to do the opposite of what his sign incline him to do as well as live out all those tendencies. I used to be very outspoken and radical. Then I tried to hang in the back and just let others have the spotlight. I can go either way. You just want me to get up on a cyber chair and renounce and denounce Maharaji. Since I am not, you find the need to go after my very nature and try to eviscerate me by saying in essence I don't have the guts-stones-integrity to even be true to my stars. I disagree with your take on me. I am Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:57:37 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Sandy Subject: NO, SANDY, NO. NO, NO, NO! Message:

you said 'You just want me to get up on a cyber chair and renounce and denounce Maharaji.' NO! I said no such thing. I am NOT talking about you and maharaji. I'm talking about you and all these wafty tales you so love to wander to and from, none of which are your own thinking or grounded in your own day to day. I did the trip sandy. i went there. I know all the popular riffs. I could hang with the best of them. I channelled Sananda. I channelled Archangel Gabriel. I had visons about the future, the polar shift, the ET's, the whole ball of wax, Sandy. There isn't a trip you couldn't throw at me that I couldn't instantly yap on with you and anyone else about. I'm you in another skin. I DID it. It's all fluff sandy. it isnt real. It's pointless and meaningless. It don't mean shit to a tree. Truly. No spaceship is gonna come out of the sky and save us from armageddon. No faithful flock is gonna be magically lifted into the sky and transported away to safety while the world burns. Its all wild escapism. We are here. we have to face it. We made this mess and we have to clean it up or die in it. That's the fact. If someone saves us, they would rob us of our own maturation. Its no virtue when codependents do it to alcoholics and its no virtue anywhere else. Choices have consequences. Thats the lesson, if there is one. the Prime Directive is true, while Star Trek is fiction. If you meddle, you rob. The same ethics and dynamics apply at all strata sandy. i dont are if you wanna think about it using ET's or humans or gods. The lessons and learnings are the same, regardless. The lesson is that you alone think and act for you. No one can do it for you. no one should. When they do, good is not what results. Everything thinks for itself and does for itself, from birth. Determinedly so. ',... you find the need to go after my very nature and try to eviscerate me...' NO, sandy. if anything, you have eviscerated your own nature, yourself--or tried to, by trying so hard to become something you are not and were not. you have made of yourself a gutless wonder. I would like to see you get your guts back, to put some steel and fire into your being, as a grown man. You don't speak in your own voice. You toss parables like folded paper flowers, pages you tore out of nice books and made pretties with. They arent your own words. You didnt think them up and write them and say them for mankind. You hide behind them. You can't speak without cue cards. What are you going to do when you've torn all the pages out of your nice books and there are no more pretties to tear out and toss at people? You don't even know what you think, sandy.all you ever do is quote other people you never met or interacted with. you say you were a militant when you were younger. pure aries firebrand, outspoken, etc. ok. i can understand reaching a point where such ignorance and youthfull foolishness might yeild to a more thoughtful state. you know the Byrds song, 'My Back Pages'? take that. good description of it right there. that was me too. ok? lets move up a few years. Crosby Sills, Nash and Young: 'Wooden Ships'. sentiment-'we are leaving...you don't need us'. and move up again: Grateful Dead: 'Uncle John's Band'...'think this thru with me.let me know your mind. what i want to know is, are you kind?' and here we are today, at CSNY again 'Wasted On The Way'-'i am older now; i have more of what i wanted, BUT I WISH THAT I HAD STARTED LONG BEFORE I DID. SO MUCH TIME TO MAKE UP, EVERYWHERE YOU TURN, TIME WE HAVE WASTED ON THE WAY...' you gotta grow up sandy. we all do. it's time. we're old. we arent goofy kids with fluff for brains anymore. no one can tell us how to think. those authors you love to maunder on, they would rip your head off, for leaning on them at every turn and speaking their words as if they were your own. you're worshipping the pointing finger and failing to look up at what it's pointing at! youre still doing it, after all these years! i am not telling you what to think, or how to think, I am just telling you TO THINK. WITH YOUR OWN HEAD. not try to choose between this one and that one, or wait for and hope for a new one. look around you, at what you see with your own eyes, and act on your own gut senses. you are so confused. you don't know what you really think. You wander around listening and jiving, but you, yourself, don't have a stand or a solid purpose to your life. you don't know what you believe or or know. its all inchoate and floaty. and as for balance, I quote you one more song. Donovan.'first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is' you wander all around the world, and finally come back to where you started from, and see it as it is for the first time. you had it in you, with you, the whole time, and you thought it was elsewhere. It's time to get back some of that Aries fire and conviction that can stand fast, and take on all comers, and declare war for the right reasons. but a principled war. an informed war. a wise war, now. i dont care if its a war on poverty or a war on injustice or a war on illiteracy or just a war on the weeds in your yard. use your own eyes and ears and what god gave you, sandy. you are all you need. you can't borrow everyone else's. it makes you a lazy, freeloading,spineless philosophical mooch. you have to grow your own and defend it from your own seed, from yourself. people resent it when you steal from theirs. they did the hard work. you have no right to theirs. make your own stand. by saying in essence I don't have the guts-stones-integrity to even be true to my stars. everything comes around. the stars included. and you with them.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:56:23 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: janet Subject: Awesome Post, Janet, (apart from the... Message:

...astrological references:-)). No really. If Sandy can't understand what you're saying, then he truly is deaf. Thanks, John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:22:49 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: janet Subject: So Janet Message:

Gee, what can I say in repsonse to all that? Well, in the words of....hahahaha. That was a joke. Janet, just know that yes I am kind, and for now and that will carry us to the next station. Happy Easter if that means anything to you. I know I did not make up that term 'Happy Easter', but it works for me. I loved your enthusiasm, even though your read was a bit overexaggerated. Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 14:49:50 (GMT) From: An observer Email: None To: Sandy Subject: A word, Janet... and Sandy Message:

Janet, You are way out of line here, telling Sandy all about his character defects, just because he likes to quote people - or whatever. He is allowed to be wherever he is, and you are not appointed as his fixer or the arbiter of his maturity. We recall an excellent post you wrote some time ago about the importance of staying with communications in the 'I' mode. What is all this nonsense about fixing Sandy? Are you his guru? Does he represent a part of you that you think has not grown up yet? And Sandy, You really don't need to take this kind of shit. An observing ET

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 22:08:45 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: An observer Subject: A Warning, 'Observer' Message:

You have already posted under a different name. Any further breach of forum guidelines will result in your posts being deleted, and you being banned from posting. Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:12:15 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Why do you post as the FA and not in YOUR name? Message:

Judges don't wear masks in court. Why are you here undercover? Administrators don't wear masks in any office I now of. Those guys in the middle ages who beheaded people wore masks, though... If you are respected, then the respect will flow no matter if you use your name or whether you use your TITLE POWER! And if you are not fair, then you will not be respected no matter what you call yourself. 8>) Respectfully submitted, Sandy

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:23:22 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Why anon? Because of experience. Message:

The FA's on this forum didn't use to be anonymous - I know, I WAS one. It is a hard job to be an authority figure on a forum full of people with 'issues' with authority. If you think YOU get flamed on here, try being a FA using your own name. Furthermore, it restricts the kind of posts you can make under your own name - until you might as well stop posting. I didn't agree with the FA's being anonymous at first, but it has worked really well. The FA's can act like FA's when posting as 'FA', and they can also post their opinions (and even joke around!) under their own names.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:08:37 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Double standard Message:

I think that when someone is serving as the FA, they should not be schizo and post under their own name as well, being in essence two people at the same time. That's like a judge taking sides in a legal battle in his courtroom. When a lawyer is acting as a judge, he is not acting as a lawyer at the same time. Here is an example. Near the top, Jim, such and I are reprimanded for having a brawl online. The FA says it is obvious who is the primary antagonist, but does not name the person. Why? Because it's an ex-premie, that's why, as I see it. If it was a premie, their name would have been trampled some more. If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'. I rest my case.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 00:16:14 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Sandy Subject: went to Easter Party:bit off a choco-bunny's head Message:

Sandy, That's ok. Don't worry about it, my brother. Actually, I haven't had so much fun since some insufferable prick bully-boy punk wannabe in the WPC ashram taunted me with his chaka sticks 1 inch from my face while I was meditating. The sissy-boy punk ended up on the floor in 3 seconds with a broken nose and his chaka sticks wrapped around his stupid neck. The lesson there: only a total mentally unstable certifiable idiot would even dream of ever fucking around with me -- anytime, anywhere, anyway, or anyhow. [Of course, I got reprimanded by the general secretary - but promoted to head of security. Arjuna with shades... haha] Geez, Sandy, what an Easter Party I went to yesterday. Forgot to thank the host for the surprise invite. To be honest, the dumb card I received kinda sucked, however. And there were a whole bunch of rotten eggs in the stupid Easter basket -- glad they got chucked out, though. They didn't smell so good -- phew! But that lil' white chocolate bunny SURE tasted good, though. Yum! The best part, of course, is when you bite off its soft, thick empty head. [Kinda fattening, too, but I work out all the time in my home gym to stay in shape -- pumping iron, hitting the heavy bag, doing pushups, situps, etc.] Whenever I see white chocolate bunnies anywhere near me (or around my friends), it's almost like they're practically begging to get chewed up. Yum! Boy, am I hungry now -- just thinking about it! Gotta go raid the fridge. Hope you had a Happy Easter, Peace and LENTILS, LOL

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:13:27 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Sandy Subject: You were the only premie involved Message:

First, Sandy, such is an EX-premie. I don't know if the FA sees you as the major antagonist, but I kind of doubt it. Second, being the FA is a volunteer position that requires the person to read all the forum posts (or as many as possible). Maybe it would be *ideal* for them not to post under their own names as well - but I don't think it would be realistic - or easy to find someone who would do that. We're all human here. It ain't perfect, but the system we have now seems to work OK. Take care, Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:15:17 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Sandy Subject: And P.S., I don't even know if you call yourself.. Message:

...a premie anymore. Gotta go - running late already. Katie

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:56:21 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: An observer Subject: Observer Message:

Hey Ob, I don't take it. I just read it, take what applies and leave the rest. You were right on, but it has more credibility if someone else says it besides me. If I say it, I'm just being defensive.. Well said.

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: More about Kabir Message:

Sandy, Why did you post this? This isn't a Kabir site, it's an anti-Maharaji site. You haven't added anything to our knowledge of Maharaji's origins, or the way he uses Kabir to support his teachings. You know, I get tired of reading your posts because they reveal nothing about your mind, I'd really like to read something that came from you, the real you, warts and all, but hopefully with a little reason included. John.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 06:35:42 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: JHB Subject: sadly, i concur.......nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 23:52:29 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: More about Kabir Message:

Sandy, Why did you post this? This isn't a Kabir site, it's an anti-Maharaji site. You haven't added anything to our knowledge of Maharaji's origins, or the way he uses Kabir to support his teachings. You know, I get tired of reading your posts because they reveal nothing about your mind, I'd really like to read something that came from you, the real you, warts and all, but hopefully with a little reason included. John. Dear John, Forgive me for seeming to be unconnected to the thread. I posted this about Kabir because of the excerpt below reprinted and how I thought it relates to the conversation here: 'Kabir openly criticized all sects and gave a new direction to the Indian philosophy. This is due to his straight forward approach that has a universal appeal.' In other words, Kabir busted on everyone who was in the spirit business as he saw fit and was still considered a holy man. If you don't see the relevance, excuse me. Sandy Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 09:11:39 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: More about Kabir Message:

No I still don't see the relevance. Are you advising us to follow Kabir? BTW, have you noticed that all these teachers that we are supposed to admire supposedly rejected the religions of their times. I suppose if Maharaji's reputation somehow survives in the future, he will be touted by his followers as someone who rejected the religions of the late 20th/early 21st centuries (when we know he's just a bhakti hindu dressed in a western suit). Sandy, it's all a load of shit, but unfortunately too much of it is floating around in your mind. John who openly criticises all sects of my time.

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 16:42:17 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: JHB Subject: To JHB the gatekeeper Message:

So JHB, My post doesn't rate with you? Tell it to the FA. Maybe he or she can just purge everything with my name on it and you can ban my ass from here. Then you can revise your history and take your place in the halls of drek next to other groups who revise history and leave out whatever they don't like... Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 14, 2001 at 21:31:47 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Sandy Subject: To Sandy the alky at the gate Message:

Sandy,