Livia -:- They don't know what's going on -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:49:30 (EST)

__ Bryn -:- The idea of going to hell -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:30:12 (EST)

__ __ Francesca :~) -:- When my sides split -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:55:51 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- How about this one, Fran... -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:10:39 (EST)

__ Suedoula -:- It takes a drip or two -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:39:30 (EST)

__ __ You want drips? -:- This is the place -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:32:16 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- drips? I'm showering in em -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:25:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- drips? I'm showering in em...Janet LOL... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:13:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Seething troubles? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:17:09 (EST)

__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: It takes a drip or two -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:41:08 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM*** Livia -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:45:14 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- and **BEST OF FORUM*** Suedola too! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:51:26 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- And SUEDOLA too (nt) [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:15:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ***BEST OF to Livia,Suedoula, Janet*** [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:19:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Best of ... second that emotion, indeed -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:11:53 (EST)

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:49:30 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: They don't know what's going on
Message:

It is becoming more and more apparent to me just how little premies know about what is going on.

In the last week I have told two people about the Jagdeo revelations and IT WAS THE FIRST TIME EITHER OF THEM HAD HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT IT. One of them is now becoming an ex (WPC girl). The other I just spoke to this morning. I told her about Jagdeo, Fakiranand and the yacht. She knew nothing about any of it. I wasn't worried about destabilising her too abruptly because she has been drifting off for a while now. She listened and at first said she didn't care about all that stuff, but gradually as she took it all in, she began to use her discrimination and said she'd have to seriously think about it all. And knowing her as I do, she will.

I couldn't have had that converation with a premie who was going to videos all the time - they are just too brainwashed, almost scarily so.

This is all becoming clearer and clearer to me. My second friend is going to read EPO when she gets back from holiday; she's distanced enough not to worry about any command from on high not to look at it.

The seriously brainwashed ones DAREN'T look at it in case Maharaji somehow knows, and PUNISHES them! I know this to be true, because (embarrassingly) it's what I felt when I first had a look a couple of years ago. I felt sort of guilty, and thought that everyone there was seriously 'in their minds'. I even remember having a conversation with a premie about it, and we both agreed that the people on EPO and the forums are still 'obsessed' by M and K. We thought: if they've had enough, why don't they just walk away?

M seems to be so oblivious to how the Jagdeo issue and his refusal to face it, has caused and will continue to cause people to leave in droves. It makes him look so BAD.

In order to remain in the cult while knowing about the Jagdeo issue, a premie has to engage in serious disassociation of the type spoken about in a thread below. They have to enter an extremely dubious moral universe, and seem unable to see that the morals there are a million miles from the spiritual values that probably drew them to and kept them with M and K in the first place.

It's all so weird, and it's probably morally damaging to them as well.

Another thing: I was talking on the phone on Thursday night to a premie about the forthcoming phone thing with Yorum Weiss. She knew what it was all going to be about - the dismantling of EV etc. I asked her what she thought about it all and she said: 'Oh, it's really beautiful!' And I knew immediately that if M was about to quadruple the size and activities of EV, and I had asked her the same question, she would have said: 'Oh, it's really beautiful!'

In other words, it all comes down to them thinking that whatever he does is perfect because he is perfect. (They don't really let themselves think he's 'The Lord' any more, but they have this new catch-phrase: the purity of the master.) But here is some double-think: they also now allow themselves to believe he is imperfect in some ways, he gets things wrong occasionally like he can be chauvinistic, or he likes dirty jokes, smokes, drinks (a little), eats red meat. Maybe doesn't even meditate! And somehow that's all fine. And if you challenge them on the logical front, they sneer at the concept of 'logic'. God, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

I suppose soon the only people left will be the seriously deluded, morally and ethically vacuous shadows of the people they once were.

Phew.

With love, Livia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:30:12 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: The idea of going to hell
Message:

I have heard and felt a lot of this notion in recent weeks. It's much more common than I had realised, and it surfaces in all sorts of areas, not just in the religious department. I noticed it recently in someone's relationship issue. They had demonised their ex, imputing to them supernatural powers of action in the world.

A teacher I know would not let me use a certain room, because the regular occupant, then long absent would not approve of what I was going to use it for (music and dance). When I said there was no need to tell them, the teacher looked restless and said no ' he'd know'. The situation was a closed one and there was no way, unless told, they would have found out.

I had it myself, recently when after 'gossiping' about someone,I left with the feeling that there would be dire consequences. When I checked out in my memory what I had actually said, I discovered that my words were all perfectly true, and I'd been speaking out of a sincere need for expression to a genuinely receptive and discriminating person.

I spent time with some very 'religious' people. Their 'nice' demeanour was all very civilised, but at times it looked like hyper- vigiance, based on the assumption that their cute behaviour would pre-empt some ever-observant and malicious presence from moving against them in some way.

The list goes on. Maharaji is great panacea. When the self splits, and the left half becomes afraid of the right, he steps in and subdues both. Great! At least then they both know who they are scared of. Rejoice in the Lord. Bollocks.

Love Bryn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:55:51 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: When my sides split
Message:

The whole thing was great, but esp. loved this:
The list goes on. Maharaji is great panacea. When the self splits, and the left half becomes afraid of the right, he steps in and subdues both. Great! At least then they both know who they are scared of. Rejoice in the Lord. Bollocks.

Remember that Kim (Fields) O'Leary song from One Foundation, 'You are always there'?

When all my thoughts
like enemies surround me
You are always there
within me.'

All I need is my thoughts AND him. Now THAT is scary. That is a dire consequence, that one! I, for one, am glad that he is not inside my heart, inside my mind, is NOT the very essence of whatever the heck I am. Becoming an ex is a form of exorcism. Out, out damned Rawat!!!

Bryn, thanks for the thought provoking post.

Bests,

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:10:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: How about this one, Fran...
Message:

Francesca,

I remember that song very well. It was one song I always thought to be so dark I would skip over it.

Here's another one that I had a cat fight (we didn't actually scratch eachother, but she was housemother) with another singer in Hartford because I was asked to sing it by the cc in our band, and she wanted to sing it, so neither of us sang it. Thank God.

Maharaji I am bound to you
by love and devotion
you have saved, me freed me
from the deepest darkest ocean

Maharji I am lost without you
afraid to doubt you
too in love to turn away

Maharaji all the world will
bow before you
blaa blaa blaa, can't remember the
rest of the verse because Kim was mumbling.

I love the very air you breathe
Each ray of sun that warms your body
You reside within an infinite ocean
Of love and devotion
Of love and devotion
Of love and devotion

ad infinitum, ad nauseam

Now this song I loved because it made me feel MORE longing for darshan. Interestingly, in 1998, I saw a video can't remember which one, but it was a sort of ''retrospective of maharaji.'' It actually showed scenes of him in the apple cart, the one in Kissimmee, but only his back--now this is 1998 when this song was played. Just the first two bars.

I have an old bootleg tape, many times recorded, of most of the music of that festival, with excerpts of m giving satsang. 'One word of maharaji's satsang! What is the price of that word!' The heavy afternoon one that everyone left feeling like shit. That would be interesting to hear again, but the tape is very old.

It also has Marolyn singing to m:

'I can't stop falling in love with you' and
'Black is the color of my Lord's (supposed to be love's hair)'

Why did I just remember all that?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:39:30 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: It takes a drip or two
Message:

Livia,

You wrote:
<>

Very scary stuff. Methinks things haven't changed all that much since I was a premie from 1975 to the early 80s. I can remember thinking that all of M's 'vices' were probably just a test for me. I needed to see past the things that he did in the physical plane and see only the 'purity of the Master.' If I focused on those things and felt that they were incongrous or wrong then I was focusing on the maya and I was 'in my mind.' And of course, how can you apply logic to 'lila?'

I couldn't apply the standards that I was living with as an Ashram premie to M because he was perfect and I was only striving for a mere experience of that perfection. So who was I to say that his having a wife and a family and a penchant for expensive things was wrong -- he was my Perfect Master and who was I to question or even understand his choices for this manifestation. (Man, I was in deep!)I didn't know then what I know now.

I often wonder how I would have felt if I had know the truth about M's excesses and his lifestyle when I was a premie. When I was in deep I probably would have reacted in the manner you say most PWKs react now. Most of this stuff is enough to cause a serious brain melt down for those who believe that the mere act of contemplating it in their own minds is an act of treason. If I had heard it as I was on my way out, it would have probably been the major drip to get me out the door even faster.

As it was, I kind of oozed out of premiedom. Part of my exiting process hinged on the fact that my new boyfriend couldn't stand socializing with premies. It was kind of like having a cocktail party with friends from work and having Peter Pan and the Lost Boys show up and want to play. Another part was that I felt I was ready to leave Neverland and return to the real world, ready to take on the challenges of a grown-up in a grown-up world -- something that my life as a PWK hadn't prepared me to do. Then there was my growing relationship with my now husband. Meeting him made me realize that there were other ways to deal with things I didn't like about life and the world around me that didn't involve retreating into K and the fantasy world created around it.

Bravo and best of luck to your friends, if they are anything like me, they probably have to experience a drip or two or three before they can let in the truth.

Warmly,
Susan

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:32:16 (EST)
From: You want drips?
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: This is the place
Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:25:19 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: You want drips?
Subject: drips? I'm showering in em
Message:

it's a lovely shower of drips, thank you. a downpour of the wholly game. I get cleaner with every passing storm.
ahhhh. precipitation is wonderful, innit?
leave no room for drought in your mind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:13:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: drips? I'm showering in em...Janet LOL...
Message:

Janet:

it's a lovely shower of drips, thank you. a downpour of the wholly game. I get cleaner with every passing storm.
ahhhh. precipitation is wonderful, innit?
leave no room for drought in your mind.

You amaze me, Janet. That's a Hall Of Famer in my book. I'm keeping a copy to put on by bulletin board. Copyright to you of course.

I envy you because your mind is like a steel trap. Once you learn something it's there at your disposal. Have you always been this way? I have such difficulty with short term memory retention. I was reading this thread and feeling some comfort.

I'm not alone in the rainstorm. I read so much but then it feels as if it's there in my brain, but I can't access it.

I don't know how to change it. I've tried everything I know.

Then you come along with that poem? And I got a belly laugh.

Thank you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:17:09 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: You want drips?
Subject: Seething troubles?
Message:

Articulate, heartfelt, pursuasive. Your impotent jibe typifies the average premie's inability to cope with what they read here, still less deal with it.

Thanks for the reminder.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:41:08 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: It takes a drip or two
Message:

Sorry, the piece I quoted didn't show up -- here it is:
In other words, it all comes down to them thinking that whatever he does is perfect because he is perfect. (They don't really let themselves think he's 'The Lord' any more, but they have this new catch-phrase: the purity of the master.) But here is some double-think: they also now allow themselves to believe he is imperfect in some ways, he gets things wrong occasionally like he can be chauvinistic, or he likes dirty jokes, smokes, drinks (a little), eats red meat. Maybe doesn't even meditate! And somehow that's all fine. And if you challenge them on the logical front, they sneer at the concept of 'logic'. God, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Sorry about that!
Susan

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:45:14 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM*** Livia
Message:

The fear of going to some sort of hell has been spoken of by recent exiters on and off this board. I'm glad to know that some folks that are drifting in the shadows of the cult are having an easier time breaking free than the gopis.

Thanks for taking the time to get this all out!

peace and love,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:51:26 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: and **BEST OF FORUM*** Suedola too! (nt)
Message:

and **BEST OF FORUM*** Suedola too!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:15:50 (EST)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: And SUEDOLA too (nt) [nt]
Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:19:06 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :)
Subject: ***BEST OF to Livia,Suedoula, Janet*** [nt]
Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:11:53 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Best of ... second that emotion, indeed
Message:

A cornerstone of the brainwashing that keeps Catholics in a permanent state of fear and emotional subjugation to the pope and his clergy is: GUILT. GUILT paralyzes, imprisons and emotionally cripples a person. It is the number one thing that prevents a person from enjoying real personal freedom.

Even though technically M is on record (I heard him say this at least a couple times in the late 90's) as admonishing premies to NOT feel GUILT (no surprise there - he needed to say that to forgive himself for his own outrageous immoral behaviors), the fact remains that everything about the perfect master / student(er, slave) relationship, especially the insidious, diabolical, sick and evil way that M conducts himself induces in premies a sense of inferiority, of subservience to him as a supreme being, of a need to not only please their Godfather but especially to not displease him.

I have previously posted that due to astounding meditation experiences I have had, I HAVE realized how unbelievably compassionate, totally self-satisfied, and completely unconcerned with anything like GUILT is the infinite energy that supports and sustains me. Because of this for several years now I have not been plagued by the kinds of GUILT feelings that I have seen torturing serious orthodox Catholics and active premies.

I mentioned previously that I was very close, very tight with a dear premie lady for nearly eight years. One of the main things that I observed dragging her down was her constantly being plagued with feelings of guilt. (She oftentimes would say: 'M was not happy with me. He knew what I was doing.') Much of the supportive 'satsang' I gave her over the years was trying to convince her that there was no such thing as GUILT, that the infinite energy sustaining her was so perfectly content that it had no reason to feel or capacity for feeling sadness over the supposed 'shortcomings' of humans. It didn't care. It was content just to be itself. Unfortunately, she was one of those really hardcore premies whose brainwashing was so thorough that there was just no way I could get through to her to accept this.

That's all I could tell her at the time because I had not yet exed and had not yet fully understood myself how, even though M denied it, I think that, devious and sneaky power tripper that he is, he fully understood (having attended Catholic grade school himself) that premies feeling guilt over whatever ('sins of omission': ie, not practicing K or 'sins of commission': drugs, alcohol, masturbation, etc) served the purpose of keeping them in a permanent state of subjugation (submission) to him. He knew what he was doing, the bastard, I'm sure of it. It was essential in order to keep their bucks rolling in.

Yes, GUILT is a mind control as well as a political control device used not only by the Catholic church but also by M. If only all of them could open their eyes and see the evil that those religions are inflicting on them. And make no mistake about it: Maharajism has definitely deteriorated and crystalized into a world religion. Again, they just don't realize it yet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index