la-ex -:- arti at amaroo-a pattern we have seen before? -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:28:44 (GMT)

__ Mr. Williams -:- arti at amaroo-a pattern we have seen before? -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 08:41:09 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- M's hit and run incident alone... -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:09:28 (GMT)

__ __ Mr. Smarty Pants -:- arti at amaroo-a pattern we have seen before? -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:39:01 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- To Mr. Williams, on love -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 14:51:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Way to go! Tell it like is, brother. Right on! (nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 06:00:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Beautiful,Way.Your insight countered the digital.. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 22:26:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- FA,I think this should be preserved on epo (nt) -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 04:12:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- Good post!! Nt -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 22:10:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- --KUDOS Way! GREAT post **best of***(OT) -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:54:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- WOW! A must read!!!!!!! I nonimate for 'Best Of' -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:27:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Way, a MUST READ. Hope it doesn't get lost -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:47:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- A beautiful post, Way, ''Best of Forum'' YES... -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 19:25:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Thanks, guys, but Mr. Williams... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 14:18:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Lest you feel too sorry -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:11:30 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- Mr Williams,the love is now digital?Please explain -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 14:41:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bob -:- love now digital?Please explain -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 20:00:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- love now digital? Softer than a vibrator, Bob NT -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 21:47:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Vid yo -:- love now digital? Yeah, what's the matter haven't -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:20:34 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Yes. A word about the late Seventies: -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 02:23:27 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Bring on the dancing girls -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:43:26 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- it reminds me of nothing so much as a guilty sin -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 07:15:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Did you go to the gay orgy in drag? -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 07:38:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- not the orgy, no. but the formal dnace i did. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 11:07:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- He oiled his way across the floor, oozing charm -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:57:06 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:28:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: arti at amaroo-a pattern we have seen before?
Message:

It seems that this super devotional occurrence is something that has gone on before.

In 1976,with glasnost and perstroika taking hold within the cult, m came roaring back with the 'surrender' phase...ashrams re-opened, devotion was back in, and that nasty little trend towards 'world humanitarian leader' was relegated to the dust bins of DLM.

Then the personal confrontations in the 1980's, where m was once again confronted and asked to be a mere mortal by those around him. Heads rolled,and that blasphemy was quickly swept out as well.

In the late 1990's something unique: former premies, now ex-premies, are openly challenging m and proving him to be a liar and fraud on the new found technology of the internet.
(It's interesting to note that at the last Long Beach program in the late 90's, m arrogantly taunted the people on the EPO site, stating that there were about 25 people in the entire world who didn't like him or what he did, and challenged them. He also said that premies could get confused on the internet, so he also saw the potential at that time as well. This was before he had his sites out there.)

And now, to counter the recent challenges and personal revelations, he brings out the old reliables, arti and darshan, to bring the true believers in even tighter.
Stuff like, 'maharaji is maharaji'(a totally meaningless statement, but which can be used in all sorts of ways to allow premies to keep maharaji in his own category, where he is not judged) and 'knowledge is beyond the mind'(so are many profound things, but we also use the rational mind to evaluate their effect on and in our lives) are also thrown around,to help with the denial process.
Also, statements like 'you know the rules-I don't judge you, and you don't judge me' are helpful in avoiding the difficult questions.
And the mystical/prophetic 'And there will be wars where there was peace, and peace where there was war'....again, total horseshit that means absolutely nothing, but to the true believer, another profound revelation.

It's interesting to watch maharaji try and outmaneuver the critics by inoculating himself with statements such as these.

Most premies do not see this...they don't even remember what he said 5 minutes after he said it.

I think he sees the trouble that just won't go away....
Worship and devotion are 'beyond the mind' and are his last refuge from the ever accumulating disturbing questions that are infiltrating the premie world.

Only the truly blind will remain.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 08:41:09 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: arti at amaroo-a pattern we have seen before?
Message:

You guys are incredibly devoted to constantly and obsessively telling yourselves that Maharaji is a liar and a fake----negative affirmations that apparently work like a charm in your own lives.

'I'm the one that's got to die when it's my time to die; so let me live my life the way I want to.'
Jimi Hendrix

Love is love; I don't apply my rational mind to the love I have for my children, or for M---it's a feel thing, and it's digital:
yes or no, black or white. If that seems simplistic or pathetic or robotic to you----well, tough. As my Dad used to say,smiling,
'well, then, you can kiss my ass...'

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:09:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: M's hit and run incident alone...
Message:

..makes him BOTH liar and a fake.

Omni-nothing, without even the guts to face up to what he had done. If you can love M in spite of such endearing personal qualities, then - as you say - you are not using your rational mind, nor even basic human empathy. Shame.

BTW: there is nothing obsessive about making such information public and repeating it until premies everywhere might use it to reeavaluate M's worth as a human being - never mind humanitarian leader, or whatever. You might not care overmuch for your rational mind, but others certainly do - hence the dwindling donations to EV. Many here devoted the best years of their early adult lives (or longer) to serving M - all on the strength of his claims to being the Greatest, Most Powerful Ever Living Incarnation of God since the Big Bang. We have earned the right to express our opinions of the fraudulent piece of shit you hold so dear. If you don't like it, suggest you go forth and multiply.

And why even post if you are allergic to rationality? Who do you think you going to persuade - and of what?

Glad you love your kids. So how do they feel about the hit and run thing?

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:39:01 (GMT)
From: Mr. Smarty Pants
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: arti at amaroo-a pattern we have seen before?
Message:

I bet your dad said 'kiss my ass' while smiling . . .

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 14:51:54 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: To Mr. Williams, on love
Message:

Mr. Williams,

I probably never would say that love is digital, although I do understand your meaning: it either is or it isn't. I, rather, would say that love is pure and absolute. We love truth, we love beauty, we love harmony, we love love. Yes? Whenever and however we experience harmony, we are so madly in love with it that it soothes us and enlivens us and finally makes us who we really are.

Unfortunately, although love is both true and simple, it can be misdirected. Whenever it becomes misdirected, it fails sooner or later. In Amaroo, Maharaji said that the experience of Knowledge is very easy to forget. He said he didn't know why it is easy to forget, because when it is remembered, it feels so right. I would say that the experience that Maharaji was talking about, that is so easy to forget, is not the true experience of simple love, it is the experience of love misdirected. That is why it is so easy to forget. And it is in fact forgotten whenever its object is absent and its particular conditions have diminished.

For our love to last we must get it from the right place and send it in the right direction - from the source which is the true source to ourselves and to all beings. It is a grand mistake to direct our love to a human being who claims to be our source of love but who in fact is not. Such a love is deeply perverted and will not stand up to the rational mind. Therefore, you conveniently abandon your rational mind in order to falsely sustain that imperfect love.

Truth is not afraid of rationality. Beauty and love exist easily in this world, even within the duality. But it must be the love that conquers the duality. That is the joy of this life. Once Maharaji said, 'You are receiving Knowledge, not me. If you were receiving me, you would be receiving duality.' When Maharaji said that, he was quite young, and he was altogether correct. Unfortunately, he has not continued to lead his premies in that proper direction. Rather than pointing them toward their own empowerment, he has put himself on that central throne while insisting that his students accept him as their source of that experience. He has trapped them in the very duality that he earlier warned against.

This is the big lie of all gurus. And it is the big loss of all devotees. It is a belief system that the human guru is the source of love. Such a belief system does not bring full harmony to a person's life. Instead, it alienates that person into a group-think which he can share with only his fellow cult members. The love that should be shared equally among all is hidden by the love that is conditional to the guru.

And therein lies the harm. The devotee is separated from his own inherent love of truth and beauty, and instead sees only a false image. Love is in every person and all it takes to know this love is to live life and learn its leasons. As we mature into our fullest potential, we accept life as it is. We no longer need the outside support of a guru or a cult or a belief system. All we need is our self and the life that we have been given. All persons need to attain this kind of maturity and they can easily do so.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 06:00:03 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way to go! Tell it like is, brother. Right on! (nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 22:26:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Beautiful,Way.Your insight countered the digital..
Message:

argument far better than I did a few lines below.

I guess I allowed his attitude to piss me off...just wanted to let you know that your wonderful and insightful post was a great response to Mr. Williams, and should be kept somewhere on EPO.

I'd like to see his response, if any.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 04:12:52 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: FA/Way
Subject: FA,I think this should be preserved on epo (nt)
Message:

bb

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 22:10:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Good post!! Nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:54:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: --KUDOS Way! GREAT post **best of***(OT)
Message:

I would also add that even in systems that are a bit more subtle than blatant Bhakti, like Tibetan Buddhism where the guru is not the 'source' per se, but becomes almost the 'path' to Buddhahood (which merely means enlightenment according to the PR) in guru yoga, we are losing out on the whole perceived (and to be perceived) universe, including of course, ourselves, being the path.

There is even a prayer to the teacher where you basically see everything in the universe (sound, perception, nature, etc.) to be a manifestation of your teacher, or guru. But theeeen, wait a minute! Why aren't THOSE THINGS all teachers, then? Why does it have to go back to this one (usually) guru/teacher guy? Why do we need this middle man? Guide I can accept, help I can accept, but not having to go through someone else to 'get it.'

The dark alley to enlightenment, where you might study with someone sincere, or get held up for all your money.

And yes Way, I agree that unconditional love, and the true source of love, is always a great smell test. Why do we need the Master, when the love is inside, is everywhere. Well, he can tell us about it, fine. And if you want to pay him to tell you about it, fine. But so what????

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:27:03 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: WOW! A must read!!!!!!! I nonimate for 'Best Of'
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:47:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way, a MUST READ. Hope it doesn't get lost
Message:

You said: ''In Amaroo, Maharaji said that the experience of Knowledge is very easy to forget. He said he didn't know why it is easy to forget, because when it is remembered, it feels so right. I would say that the experience that Maharaji was talking about, that is so easy to forget, is not the true experience of simple love, it is the experience of love misdirected. That is why it is so easy to forget. And it is in fact forgotten whenever its object is absent and its particular conditions have diminished.''

To me that sums up the fallacy of guruism. True love is never forgotten and we do not have to be reminded and nagged again and again to remember it.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 19:25:34 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A beautiful post, Way, ''Best of Forum'' YES...
Message:

Love for M. is so easy to forget, because it is so unreal. Most of us never even knew the man, and he dosen't know us, or even WANT to know us, as he has said himself. You have to 'Keep in Touch' to have the brainwashing renewed and reinforced. Some of the diehards seem to be auto-brainwashing themselves now, but even they go scrambling for their 'guru-fix', from programs, videos or broadcasts. To me, real love isn't hard to remember, and it doesn't have to hide or be secretive, or have to worry about holding up to scrutiny. That's what shame does. Real love wants the whole world to know.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 14:18:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Thanks, guys, but Mr. Williams...
Message:

...didn't seem to like it. I admit I feel I bit sheepish about trying to talk somebody out of their love affair, especially since he quotes Jimi Hendricks about 'live and let live'. Normally, I allow people to have their illusions, I'm certainly in no position to correct people. But I guess he asked for it by posting here.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:11:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Lest you feel too sorry
Message:

Someone who comes on here trying to preach to us about the goodness of M, and asks us to 'live and let live' re their beliefs is talking out of two sides of their mouth.

If they want such beliefs tolerated, why come here? No one will try to talk him out of his views if he never posts. So if he does, I'm afraid he asked for it, in a MAJOR way.

Why would you go to a pie shop and say, I don't want any pie please? Why would you come to an ex-premie forum and say, 'please don't disabuse me of my views of the master.' You've got to be crazy. Or expecting something you'll never get here. Compassion, yeah. But no one here is going to coddle such views. All of us had to suck it up and tolerate this crap when we were in the cult, and bite out tongues, and many of us continue to tolerate it from the premies in our circle of friends, and keep our views to ourselves and bite our tongues. I cannot tell them what I think.

If you come to this forum, I'll tell you. That's what this forum is for.

I'm so sick of premies who come here and quote the stuff about how they're welcome to post here. Yes they are, but that doesn't mean this forum's for them. And they conveniently forget the parts of the statement that remind them what the forum is for, like this part:

If you are a current premie, be aware that most of the people who post on the Forum are ex-premies, and that some ex's will be expressing negative feelings towards Maharaji and his organization. If you post pro-Maharaji messages, you may be met with anger or ridicule. Be prepared for this, but don't let it deter you from expressing your own views and feelings here.

It's called the ex-premie forum. What part of that don't they understand? The part they don't want to understand. Same as the parts of life they don't want to understand that don't harmonize with the Master's cheezy view of the world. Sheesh.

But you started a great thread, and raised some really great points. ;-)
In spite of trying to talk to someone jumping in a pool and asking that there not be water in there.

--f

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 14:41:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr Williams,the love is now digital?Please explain
Message:

Can you explain how the love is now digital?
That certainly is a new one to me.
Perhaps I would have stayed longer if I knew it was digital these days...it sounds so,I don't know...like so much horseshit, actually...

Also,as you are such a black and white, or digital type of guy...
how does m's lying and immoral behavior strike you?
If it's black and white, are you willing to admit that he's a proven liar and manipulator...one look at his old satsangs will dispel any doubts there...

And once you see the lies, in black and white (or digital), how does that make you feel?
And how do you explain the lies to the new people?
And how does it make you feel, once you lie to the new people, by deleting and distorting this information?

I'm not asking you to kiss my ass, like your dad did, just tell me the truth.
You can save the ass kissing for m...he needs it, and you like to give it.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 20:00:45 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: love now digital?Please explain
Message:

Like in Digital examination in the doc's office?

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 21:47:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: love now digital? Softer than a vibrator, Bob NT
Message:

k

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:20:34 (GMT)
From: Vid yo
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: love now digital? Yeah, what's the matter haven't
Message:

you people hoid of sat-allah-lite transmissions?

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 02:23:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Yes. A word about the late Seventies:
Message:

Nice post about the cyclical nature of Maharajism, whose cycles occur a little bit more rapidly than in more traditional Hinduism, where a bird with a scarf gradually wears down a mountain and then the next age begins once again.

I became a Satguru cultist in January of 1975, right after the Holy Family split. Kissed his right foot (and supposedly received Holy Breath, although it seemed to me he was talking to someone on his left at the time) at Hans Jayanti in the fall of that year.

Then it was 1976. No foot-kissing in Indianapolis! This is the interesting part of the story, I think. Because this is what I am sure we all believed: He was still our Lord and Savior, but we were cooling it for the purposes of propagation. And I am pretty sure that's what 21st century premies believe, too, even though I only know one premie personally. And I know that M is still Lord in her book.

So, anyway, when Rawat became Krishna again in 1977, I couldn't have been happier. That's what premies dig, of course. Bhakti hoodoo. Maybe it's happening again, huh?

In a year or two I was gone, and into Denver's alternative art and music scene and happy as a pig in shit. I could once again think and laugh and joke around and be as free as a bird (I liked that faux Beatles hit, didn't you?)

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:43:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Bring on the dancing girls
Message:

And remain they sure will but only 4,500 out of billions. It's hardly a cult even, more like an exclusive club. I think Maharaji will now just let rip and go full scale hard-core. Maybe get the old Krishna crown dusted off and take dancing lessons.

Your post is very perceptive.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 07:15:06 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave and all
Subject: it reminds me of nothing so much as a guilty sin
Message:

--they finally get a place out in the remote outback where they can control the perimeter and the guests entering, and once gathered and alone together, they can finally indulge in their strange, warped, sinful pleasures without the prying eyes of the disapproving world upon them.
reminds me of S and M clubs, Vampire blood-drinking clubs, nudist colonies, Gay bath-houses, covens, satanists...you name it. their greatest dream is to have someplace away from the world where they can have complete freedom to be their full on weird self and be with others of like mind.

lest i set anyone on edge, here, allow me to add that I myself have been to vampire clubs, have been a nudist, have been to gay clubs tho not bath houses, have been to coven gatherings and sabbats and one gay orgy. so I'm not judgemental. Just observant about the parallels.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 07:38:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Did you go to the gay orgy in drag?
Message:

I can see you now taking notes: ''Ralph started by inserting his Rawat into Michael's Prempal but Gary pushed him out of the way and stuck a large baragon into Michael's quivering Balyogeshwar before you could say Monica Lewis and a hush fell over the crowd of aroused men. It was so quiet you could have heard a rat pissing on cotton.''

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 11:07:39 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: not the orgy, no. but the formal dnace i did.
Message:

funny you should ask that. in my freshman semester at college I fell in with the gay lib radical students. they were the only intelligent friends i could find. i don't do 'normal'.
when they held their coming out formal dance on campus in the castle-like student union, one cynical queen commented that i didnt have the balls to coto it in drag. so i did. I borrowed a tailcoat from a music school keyboard major, patent leather band shoes from another, flattened my chest with an old crotchless girdle, and spent a careful hour tanning my face, mascara fluffing out my eyebrows, created a fice oclock shadow with a carpenter pencil rubbed acrss sandpaper and gently blotting the paper to my chin, jaw and upper lip to glint in the low lights, and oiled my hair into a ronald reagan pompadour. a cummerbun of paisley silk scarf, a bow tie,, tuxedo pants, and a grand floor length , hooded wool cape unfurling in the breeze as i strode across campus stopped traffic and left bystanders staring.i made the Entrance of the Evening. I threw the huge oaken doors wide so they boomed against the walls, and swept the crowd with my penetrating gaze from the top of the stairs. No one knew who i was. I descended slowly, taking in every face, cruising each one shamelessly as i passed or approached.
I moved thru the foyer silently, bristling with mystery and charisma, hunting, searching, intent.
at the end of the hall i found the Queen of the community--holding court on a bench, surrounded by fawning onlookers, was the one I wanted to upstage. He/she was gowned in red velvet like queen elizabeth herself, with a ruff and a headdress and opera makeup. Sweeping up to her in best european style, bowing, taking her gloved hand and kissing it, raising one intriguing eyebrow and turning smartly on my heel, I offered her my arm and gestured to the grand ballroom. She rose and fanned her bosom, thrilled but perplexed, and accepted my elbow. I threw my cape back behind my shoulders arrogantly and proceeded to begin the processional that formally opened the festivities. Everyone milling about the lobby and vestibule fell in step behind us in pairs and we all marched gracefuly in measured pace, once around the ballroom, until everyone was in. At the conclusion of the grand processional, everyone turned to the center and bowed, and then broke into uproarious applause. I turned tomy grand madame and bowed again and just as mysteriously as i had entered, I winked and slipped away out to the entry again.
there i found my dorm friends who had issued the dare. their jaws hit the floor when they realized it was me. I completely broke the spell when i spoke, at long last. the one who had dared me, raised his voice so as to be heard by all and announced 'why JANET--i DIDN'T THINK YOU'D MAKE IT' . several men behind him gasped and pressed closer to be sure, then exclaimed to each other 'oh my god--it's a woman! and i was cruising, hoping to take him home! oh!'

I turned around to meet my double--a violin pretege i had heard about from my friends--dressed exxactly like me. we broke out laughing, did a mirror mime for fun, and promptly joined arms and decided we were each other's date for the nonce. It was safer than getting rejected all night by people we didnt know!

i shoulda bet money. I coulda cleaned up.

but the orgy was a different night, a different party, and I was simply wandering thru the house. it was a coed party, so i'd mill around with the lesbians i knew in the kitchen awhile, then go into the livingroom and dance with the guys, then outside on the patio, then stand in the doorway of the orgy room awhile and take it all in.

i knew justabout everyone there.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:57:06 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: He oiled his way across the floor, oozing charm
Message:

from every pore...

And announced to the host that she was a fraud.

I once went to a lesbian club with some dyke pals in London with make-up on (no drag) when I was 21 and still pretty and had the girls swooning until they realized I was a fegelah.

Those were the days my friend...

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