Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 16:32:36 (GMT) From: Wish Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Internet's influence on propagation? Message:

Premies are thrilled that EV is all over the internet, and that they can see their lard's fat face from a satelite. Now they assume that their cult is in full bloom, propagation has skyrocketed, next phase is on, and their illusion of being on the right path is heightened. On the other hand, I keep reading here that the cult is on its last legs and dying quickly. Is this just wishfull thinking on our part? Both sides are very biased on this issue. So what's the real story?

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:27:19 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Wish Subject: It doesn't matter Wish. Message:

Hi Wish, When DLM was in it's expansionist heyday in the 70s, it was a tacky introverted personality cult. Now it is in decline in the 00s, it's still a tacky, introverted, personality cult. Doesn't matter if it's growing or shrinking. He ain't the Lord of the Universe and it is a cult. Anth- throwing statistics to the wind.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:43:07 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Wish Subject: Internet's influence on propagation? Message:

Wish, In all my time as a premie, the Maharaji cult was always just on the 'verge' of propogation skyrocketing. First it was Millennium, then it was humanitarian leader, then it was, better materials, then it was lots of initiators, then it was no initiators, then it was technology, blahblahblah. Nothing has ever worked. All these things are just a way for the truly programmed to have an excuse as to why something that is supposed to be so wonderful is of so little interest the the vast majority of people, and also, why, Maharaji puts many times more resources into his own lifestyle than he does in 'spreading knowledge.' It's wishful thinking, wish. Through technology and better 'synchronization' it is finally going to come together and people will recognize Maharaji for the incarnation of god that he is, which most of the premies from the 70s still believe, deep down at least. This also, will fail, because Maharaji isn't really interested in 'spreading knowledge.' He is intereseted in MONEY, and not losing what he's got. Even Elan Vital admits on its website that NO ONE received knowledge in Europe in all of last year. Also, although they don't give stats, I would bet only a handful, if any, received knowledge in North America last year either. Perhaps India is a different story, but I agree with La-Ex on the reasons for that. Joe

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:55:50 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Wish Subject: Internet's influence on propagation? Message:

Ever since Maharaji's speech a few years ago when he told premies not to meddle with the internet but to 'Get a life', ever since then (and before) the internet has been gnawing away at Maharaji's power base. It's slow but sure and Maharaji has tried all sorts of differing plans to combat it. His first plan was to tell people to get a life and not use the internet. That didn't work. Next he forebade premies from posting on the internet. That didn't work. Next he set up enjoyinglife.org to try to counter the ex-premie sites. That didn't work. He set up his own website at maharaji.org and clearly that didn't work and he's abandoned that site to the internet wasteland now with no real work done on it for ages. Next Maharaji tried to close all the ex-premie websites down but that didn't work since he they all started up again in no time at all and of course, he didn't even try to close down ex-premie.org because that would have meant a real court case with real publicity. So what's Maharaji to do now? All he can do now is spew out more spin about how successful propogation is on the premie web sites like Elan Vital etc. But as mentioned in la-ex's post, that isn't real propogation and in monetary terms which are the terms in which Maharaji thinks, those people who've received k in India and Africa are not worth much to him. Basically, the following in the Western world is in decline as it has been for a long time. Premies themselves only now extoll the virtues of 'knowledge' which as we know here, is the only thing that's left after seeing how Maharaji really is.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 17:09:35 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Wish Subject: Here's my take... Message:

Wish- you bring up an interesting point, and here's my take, from someone who was involved until this last year, and still has an eye on activities in a community, and knows friends in other communities as well... There is a big surge in India...the numbers are probably right... However, you have to understand that in India, people may have 4 or 5 gurus that they worship, much like people in the US may have 4 or 5 gurus that they consult(new age healers, therapists,motivational people like Tony Robbins, relationship 'experts' like John Gray etc. etc.) Also, the idea of a satellite and TV in a rural village in India, where everyone huddles around the video feed at night is very novel right now.... However, in an article I just read about the satellite dish phenomenon in third world countries, a man did an extensive tour of poor, third world countries (mostly in Africa, and India) and found that the number one watched TV show, by far, is Professional (?) Wrestling!!! That's right, Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin are being watched regularly and thoroughtly enjoyed by poor Indian women in villages making chapatis and raising 8 kids... So, My point is that in India, it's very acceptable to flirt with 4 or 5 gurus, and the high tech aspect is probably intriguing for them... In the US, I believe that most premies are fairly well asleep, except for a few in each community that have been allowed into the 'inner circle' of information recently, in the last year or two. Initially, they were intrigued by this position of newfound inside power, but are now seeing that it is not much more than a facade or facelift of something that's not selling too well, and hasn't been for years...for instance, in this community, the contact person fought and elbowed his way into the position a few years ago, only to realize now that he doesn't want to do it anymore..he's trying to pass it along to someone else, but no one wants to take the job, because they realize the same thing as he does... Also, with Michael Dettmers talking out, and possibly others to follow, there is a mojor earthquake hitting the premie communitiies that only the most brainwashed will ignore...

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:03:20 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: la-ex Subject: Here's my take... Message:

Similar in Vancouver. As far as I know there hasn't been a community coordinator in a few months. Steve

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 19:44:25 (GMT) From: suchabandon Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Well,me and 3 other premie-Lifers jumped ship! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:37:58 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: suchabandon Subject: Not speaking of the 1,600 aspirants they claim!!! Message:

I gues they still count them the same way, to avoid m's anger ....

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 04:18:32 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Not speaking of the 1,600 aspirants they claim!!! Message:

Yeah, they have a funny way of counting. See I'd thought they said I counted. But I misunderstood. What they meant was they were counting me. I guess I was aspirant #45-60 or so for each event I attended? Boy what a population explosion!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 16:30:28 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Daneane Subject: More on EV's algebra Message:

Each time you showed up to an event, you've been counted 1 aspirant. Means if you showed up 10 time in 2000, you're 10 out of the '1600' aspirants for the year 2000 .... I really wonder how many real people those 1600 count for ! 20 real aspirants in West these days ? A bit more ? ..... They'll never admit. Plus they're unable to count them.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:41:40 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Counting chickens before they're hatched Message:

Phew, thanks for that, I always feel a stab of concern when I hear about the latest huge numbers of people waiting to receive this blessed knowledge. I calculate that the five hangers around in this neck of the woods add about 100 aspirants a year to the figures! Thats great, I can't stop laughing...

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:27:54 (GMT) From: suchabonhomme Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Zut alors,leur arithmetique est tres mauvaise! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 08:38:05 (GMT) From: Andrew Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Two questions... Message:

Hello Everyone Happy New Year! I am not a premie, have a few premie friends, and recently discovered your site. Although I am outraged at M's behaviour and could never personally accept anything from the man, I do have a couple of nagging questions (they have probably been asked many times before... so apologies for bringing them up again): 1) To what extent is Knowledge independent of M (not in an historical sense which we know it is, but in a psychological sense)? Do any of you who have rejected M still practice Knowledge because of the strength of the meditation techniques themselves? 2) I have a friend I respect very much who is a premie and has been one since the DLM started. When I relayed some of the information that I had read on this site and another to her, she told me that she had heard it all before through the grapevine (although not the story about M killing a man in India). She told me that she is perfectly aware of all this 'weird stuff' that went on but said that it all happened a while back. She says that M is a human (although divinely connected in her opinion) and that, although he has made many mistakes in the past, he is growing and changing the whole time. She says that he is VERY different now than he was (for example, he is no longer an alcoholic). Is this true? Do any of you have uptodate information? And if he has changed, to what extent can we judge somebody's message by their past behaviour - or even, I suppose, their present behaviour. (I personally love reading books by the Tibetan lama Chogyam Trungpa which I find very inspiring. I am also aware that he led an outrageous life and eventually died of AIDS, but that seems to make absolutely no difference to my respect for his teachings. I suppose the difference for me is that this man did not set himself up as anything other than a teacher from a tradition that was larger than himself.) Your thoughts on these points would be much appreciated. Andrew

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:38:43 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

Personally, I think 'Knowledge' is a loaded and meaningless term. It's one of those words like 'that love' that becomes some kind of code word in the Maharaji-cult world, that doesn't mean much, but everyone thinks and agrees is so full of meaning. What 'knowledge' is is four meditation techniques that some people find relaxing and helpful and some don't. I am one who doesn't. It is meditation that is of no more value, in my opinion, than TM, breath exercises, or meditation techniques that are taught in seminars about reducing stress. It's only all the spiritual mumbo-jumbo that gets added to it, which is really the 'knowledge religion' along with the word coding that prevents people from really analyzing what they are doing, that creates the 'knowledge works' business. What on earth does that mean? Does it mean you 'feel good' (sometimes) when you do meditation? If that's true, then why don't premies just say that? I think the point about Maharaji's behavior is that all but a tiny handful of his followers have even met Maharaji, and don't know him at all. That's what makes all this devotional/grateful stuff so absurd. How can you LOVE someone who you have never met? The point about disclosing what an immoral asshole Maharaji has been is to dispell the idea that he is some kind of person worthy of devotion, love and gratitude. His life is a mess. He drinks, takes drugs, engages in sex with his followers and then disposes of them, usurps his responsbility for killing someone, and keeps it all secret to the extent he can. He hides out and presents a false image of himself to his followers. But even if has 'reformed' which I would doubt until it was proven otherwise, part of reforming is taking responsbility, publicly, for what he has done. It is disclosing the truth and explaining how he has reformed, what steps he has taken to change. And he hasn't done that, and continues to refuse to to that. So, he is just as despicable and unreformed now as he was when we know he was fucking and discarding his followers, and I would suggest that probably hasn't changed anyway. We are informed that, at least, he, to this day, has a mistress despite being married with kids. Does your friend know about that? Is this one area where he hasn't really 'evolved' yet? For someone who is supposed to be an example of someone who is really experiencing knowledge and one to whom premies want to look for instruction and guidance, it is really amazing how LOW, LOW, LOW the standards of these premies are when it comes to Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:38:39 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: Joe Subject: Two questions... Message:

As you so rightly point out: 'Knowledge' is indeed a 'loaded and meaningless term.' I just don't know what else to call it as I am not some 'master' who needs to package his product in sound-bites. It's called kriya yoga in India but is so mixed up with primitive cow-worship and guru-bhakti shit that it is impenetrable to all but the most desperately self-deluded New Age Birkenstock-shod crystal-gazing vegans in need of a blood transfusion from Berkeley. Maybe I never practiced 'Knowledge' in all the 28 years I thought I was doing it but I enjoy taking an hour every morning to be quiet, relax and feel comfortable and refreshed. Everything else experienced 'inside oneself' is by definition subjective and unprovable. As I said to Gerry I just want to have some fun and get high with a little help from my friends.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:12:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Don't Knock Berkeley Message:

My boyfriend is from Berkeley, so I've been spending a lot more time there, and you might find it is a bit more Yuppified these days, with astronomical housing costs. Not quite so new age, anymore. It has become a Gourmet Ghetto, you know, Che Panisse and the like, but not a lot of BMWs, more Saabs and Volvos. Lots and lots of Volvos. Come to think of it, why didn't we start worshipping cows? If Maharaji had said to do it, I probably would have.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:57:58 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

Hi Andrew, I have never posted here before but have been following this site for a couple of years even though I still practice the kriya yoga (Knowledge) techniques and have until recently listened to M's increasingly trivial and tatselessly self-congratulatory talks. However your questions seemed too earnest to ignore. After having been involved in the organization for 12 years I dropped out of it 15 years ago because I could no longer stomach the church-ladies and their endless fussing over white table-cloths and their weird messianic expectations. About a year ago decided to get involved in the local community when I heard that some sort of democratic glasnost was taking place. I was hoping to be able to help to deconstruct the whole guru-worship/personality cult thing and assert that Knowledge is far more important than a very fallible and mortal human being no matter how supposedly advanced a yogi he is. (Knowledge to me is a democratic not a dictatorial thing - I came to it because of the whole hippie-psychedelic love revolution.) Needless to say I failed and had to retreat. But that's a whole nother story which I will post if anyone's interested. You ask: 'To what extent is Knowledge independent of M (not in an historical sense which we know it is, but in a psychological sense)? Do any of you who have rejected M still practice Knowledge because of the strength of the meditation techniques themselves?' I answer: I have rejected M as my teacher because I really can't stand rich greedy undemocratic libertarians which is what he still is and always has been. Having once been one of the anti-apartheid 'communists' they put in jail in South Africa in the sixties I guess I'll always be a shit-stirring pinko hippie fag. M does have psychological control over Knowledge if you let him have it. Knowledge is what you make of it yourself. Any benefits derived from it are purely from your own effort. If you are asking this question because you are interested in getting Knowledge I would advise you to wait until the shit hits the fan - which it will. There is a movement afoot that will eventually blow M's game. Have you checked out the premies comments on 'Life's aFoot?' It's at http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum They are what I call the 'unpremie' culture. And there are more of us around than either ex-premies or cult-premies. In fact I'm thinking of doing a website for people with Knowledge who want to get high but can't stand the church-ladies of Elan Vital or the Holy Cow who runs the show. They worship cows - and gurus - in that supposed land of enlightenment, India. In America we eat cows and require gurus to obey the laws of democracy. But I can't get into being angry or bitter which is why I don't waste my time posting vituperative comments here. I just wanna get high. Knowledge is an old and tried and trusted way to do that. But the techniques are not nearly as important as your own efforts to be more conscious which is why many other forms of meditation achieve the same end result. Just sitting (za-zen) and practicing silence and awareness can do it. It is the desire to be high that gets you high. Knowledge is not some magic formula. I have practiced and enjoyed it for 28 years and I can tell you that one's efforts are more important than the techniques. Wishing you all health, wealth and happiness for this new century, Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:51:11 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Thelma Subject: FYI Thelma ... Message:

Hi Thelma, Just thought both you and Andrew should know that there are only a couple of 'premies' posting at 'Life's aFoot' lately. DavidJ, Elaine (sort of), and the forum god there, CD. All the others are exes and nons(2). Anna

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 15:41:06 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk To: Thelma Subject: A few comments Thelma Message:

By the way hi, always good to see new people posting, and as a fellow libertarian, the main reason I'm here, this site should reflect all flavours, even if a lot of us here find any kind of spiritual route hogwash, there are a number of others who don't, and even if you were the only one, so what, I'm sure someone who did jail fighting anti-apartheid can cope with a bit of verbal flak if it comes. After having been involved in the organization for 12 years I dropped out of it 15 years ago because I could no longer stomach the church-ladies and their endless fussing over white table-cloths and their weird messianic expectations. About a year ago decided to get involved in the local community when I heard that some sort of democratic glasnost was taking place. I was hoping to be able to help to deconstruct the whole guru-worship/personality cult thing and assert that Knowledge is far more important than a very fallible and mortal human being no matter how supposedly advanced a yogi he is. (Knowledge to me is a democratic not a dictatorial thing - I came to it because of the whole hippie-psychedelic love revolution.) Needless to say I failed and had to retreat. But that's a whole nother story which I will post if anyone's interested. Think you're journey of going back after a long break would help deconstruct the myth that it's all changed which we know it hasn't, rinse out the pr/spin side of ev/gm I answer: I have rejected M as my teacher because I really can't stand rich greedy undemocratic libertarians which is what he still is and always has been. Having once been one of the anti-apartheid 'communists' they put in jail in South Africa in the sixties I guess I'll always be a shit-stirring pinko hippie fag. M does have psychological control over Knowledge if you let him have it. Knowledge is what you make of it yourself. Any benefits derived from it are purely from your own effort. If you are asking this question because you are interested in getting Knowledge I would advise you to wait until the shit hits the fan - which it will. Practice of k, and I say it as someone who it worked for big-time, I left because he obviously had no desire to spread this k, is as much about luck as anything else if it works. Before coming here I would have agreed with you, but a number of people have convinced me otherwise. There are a number of people here who practiced k assiduously and with sincerity for years, nay decades, and their sincerity produced minimal experiences of value. But re k, the techniques are freely available on this site. With the techniques, the luck that they are the right techniques for you, and the right attitude, there is no need for any involvement at all, in fact would say anyone getting involved is seriouslyt risking their mental health. They are what I call the 'unpremie' culture. And there are more of us around than either ex-premies or cult-premies. In fact I'm thinking of doing a website for people with Knowledge who want to get high but can't stand the church-ladies of Elan Vital or the Holy Cow who runs the show. They worship cows - and gurus - in that supposed land of enlightenment, India. In America we eat cows and require gurus to obey the laws of democracy. But I can't get into being angry or bitter which is why I don't waste my time posting vituperative comments here. I just wanna get high. Knowledge is an old and tried and trusted way to do that. But the techniques are not nearly as important as your own efforts to be more conscious which is why many other forms of meditation achieve the same end result. Just sitting (za-zen) and practicing silence and awareness can do it. It is the desire to be high that gets you high. Knowledge is not some magic formula. I have practiced and enjoyed it for 28 years and I can tell you that one's efforts are more important than the techniques. You don't have to be angry or bitter to post here, like you most of my life is deicated to getting high, whether through k or other chemikals or just living, a lot of this site is also about community, sharing, not just attacking gm. It is also obvious that you can't stand gm, that makes you an ex-premie whether you accept that or not, this site is specifically about the fraudulence of gm, not dissing k. He sells the package on the triangle, the individual, k, and gm. He makes it quite plain that he is crucial to the process, if you don't believe that you aree an ex-premie, premie doesn't just mean a believer in god, but a believer that ONLY gm has the power to show you this experience. Here's hoping you hang around, even if just occasionally, the more libertarians the better I say. By the way, say hello to Louise!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 19:57:08 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: hamzen Subject: A few comments from Thelma Message:

Hi Hamzen, Thanks for reading and replying to my post. I understood most of your points but I think you must have been stoned because it seems you left parts of your sentences out which made it hard to follow. BTW, I may even know you because I lived in UK for 8 years and got got K there in 73. I'm a 'democratic libertarian' and I criticized M for being an 'undemocratic libertarian,' the kind we have here in the US - right-wing gun-nut vigilante-nazis who believe that any limitations on their freedom to be selfish greedy assholes is anathema and who would like to see power returned to feudalistic warlords with private armies - in other words a lot like I think M and his Malibu groupies would be like if they could get away with it. As for my attempt to help deconstruct the cult - what can I say? I must have been feeling the warm fuzzies from a nice joint when I thought of that but I'm a pie-eyed optimist and it took me a year to realize that not only had glasnost not been introduced and not only had the cult not changed for the better but it had actually gotten worse. The church-ladies appeared on the surface to be quite sweet, sincere and reasonable but after a while one began to get an eerie feeling that one was really dealing with the Stepford wives. The only good that came from my foray back into the fold was that it removed the last remaining remnants of my toleration for M or his devotees. Oh, and I do have my moments of anger and bitterness but prefer not to feel those emotions and would rather see M brought to justice by humor and satire than vituperation. Laughter and derision are healthier than anger and bitterness. Yes, I am an ex-premie in so far as I feel sympathy for the stated mission of this forum: to request that M state publicly that he has misled people and apologise for that and to make reparations for the damage that he has done to people. I don't suffer as much because I never felt that I was ever a premie (hence the term 'un-premie') as I never liked M to start with but I do know that many people were badly hurt because they placed their trust in a cold, calculating, selfish fraud. PS I am an atheist or maybe somebody who just thinks of god as a democracy made up of 6 billion conscious human beings with no almighty lord - we're it.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:04:27 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Thelma Subject: You're not synchronised Thelma, that's the problem Message:

Scary stuff eh, and to think they are seriously trying to spin their way out, very cartoonish really, and the numbers, people are swarming in to the new sales pitch. Someone tried to tell me recently that numbers are rising, the ability for self-delusion of premies is almost wonderful to behold. Re the shorthand, sorry, not enough time in the day, still want to post, blah de blah. If only it was smoke induced!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:50:20 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: hamzen Subject: You're not synchronised Thelma Message:

I wish I was as hard as some of you guys. I've been deluged with emails from all my premie acquaintances all so excited that the Lord of the Universe is going to be in Oxnard soon. Maybe I'm a bleeding-hearted liberal more than a libertarian but I feel so sorry for these guys. Most of them have IQs the same size as their shoes and are often ugly or otherwise socially challenged nerds and drips. They would not have any friends or any life at all if it were not for the cult. Breaks my bloody heart.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:17:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Hey we're synchronized.... Message:

Ham, Is cartoonish the word of the day? Funny I just used it to you below and now read yours!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:28:23 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: The cosmos moves in mysterious ways eh! Message:

For a real cartoon strip see Anths post about hecklers, under Thelmas thread about the 14th, I'll say no more, it cracked me up.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:15:56 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Thelma's misconceptions Message:

I'm a 'democratic libertarian' and I criticized M for being an 'undemocratic libertarian,' the kind we have here in the US - right-wing gun-nut vigilante-nazis who believe that any limitations on their freedom to be selfish greedy assholes is anathema and who would like to see power returned to feudalistic warlords with private armies You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, Thelma. This is a gross mischaracterization of libertarianism. You piss me off with this shit.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:56:04 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: gerry Subject: So how about a def Gerr? Message:

Assuming by your reaction you aren't into Thelma's view of democratic libertarians, which she seemed very pro! Actually saying I'm a libertarian was strictly untrue, of the sort that give libertarians a bad name saw a tv prog recently on some backwoodsmen who were straight neo-nazis, swatikas and all, very scary, thought that was the type she was referring to. Here in the uk there is an interesting debate going on within the conservative party. The control freak conservatives are just about to lose another election so badly they could become a sideshow. They can't fake the Blairite middle way so they're stuck, the tory/conservAtive libertarians are starting to get some influence especially relating to the drug angle.When you have 50% of uk under 35s doing drugs on a weekly, nay daily basis, and for over 10 years, who by the way mostly don't vote, there's a strong argument for co-opting them by freeing up the drug laws. The shadow home secretary recently advocated instant £100 fines, and was shot down by a number of members of her own party, mostly shadow cabinet members, who admitted they had smoked dope. In itself amazing, but one of them admitted eating space cakes and having a grand time. When you consider how anti-drugs the Tories have always been, well interesting to say the least, and with the freedom of no power for another 5 years the only possible alternative pitch for them at present, especially since the british public is too advanced for an old school con like bush to get in here.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:02:12 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: ham Subject: So how about a definition of libertarianism? Message:

In the 22 years since I discovered libertarianism (when I first came to the US) I've read and written many an article in various publications. There is a huge range of 'libertarian' philosophy all the way from those who each want their own nuclear bomb, to Green libs, to marxist libs, to cultic Randian Objectivists to the relatively sane and refreshingly sensible Libertarian Party on whose candidates I regularly waste my vote and in whose circles I move in my line of business. Gerry is right to chastise me. It is not good to introduce a word without defining it especially when it is a fairly unknown idea. Libertarianism (as defined by the Libertarian Party) is classic liberalism taken to its logical conclusion.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:17:47 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Thelma Subject: I think I love you thelma... Message:

Libertarianism is: classic liberalism taken to its logical conclusion. Yes indeed. Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 23:56:38 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: gerry Subject: Blimey, Message:

so what would you say was the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist? It's obvious that my reading on the topic is a lot shallower than you, Gerry and Joe, apologies to the three of ya? Re your post above about sad premies, well maybe for myself it's because I recognize that that sad fuckerdom was in me as well, anger with myself as much as anything. I never felt a connection to gm, remember finding a couple of his satsangs abusive and guilt laden in '76, yet was still going to occasional programmes in the late eighties. Had a really hard time with premie communities, only kept going to satsang because my experiences in meditation were so strong. Had no historical understanding of the techniques, yet when I wAlked realized just how much garbage I had taken in. Even though in my head I'd approached k with strong taoist/zen tendencies, I'd fooled myself, believed I was much more detached from it all than I had been. For years I was open to the lila possibilities, wanted it to be true about him, because I couldn't see any possibility for the huge change that was required because of the inevitable environmental destruction globally that was coming I suspect. Even in spite of that, can remember thinking a lot of people here were too aggressive in their communication when I first arrived. Was open with the premies that came here, but I soon learnt. The premies who come here are the worst kind of denial infected revisionists. That and still being in communication with my ex, a gorgeous person, but someone who thinks it's all just about the experience, everything else is irrelevant. I've increasingly come to the conclusion that that hippy nice naivete is actually very dangerous, whether in premie format or elsewhere. The punk thing of never trust a hippy makes a lot of sense to me, and again that's partially because of a huge dose of that still in my head. The problem is, the infuriating nature of premies is exactly as you stated, Stepford Wives, a term I've used about premies for a long time myself, a state it's impossible to communicate with. I sometimes wonder if that hippy niceness isn't more dangerous than obvious nastiness. A lot of my mates now are into the house scene, proudly joke about their hippy tendencies, but what they mean by hippyness is a lot more streetwise than the actual reality.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:06:30 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Previous post should be to Thelma not you Gerr! Message:

think I must be missing the chemikals more than I thought! although would also like to know your def of the differences between libertarianism & anarchism.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 00:39:48 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: ham Subject: Thanks, I'm off the hook to answer... Message:

I'm not at all conversant with anarchism, maybe there are some similarities.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 09:51:30 (GMT) From: The Thunderstealing Bitch Email: None To: gerry, hamzen, ham Subject: libertarianism v anarchy Message:

The word anarchism was used by the early marxists (such as those in Prussia in 1848) to describe the supposed utopian outcome of the communist revolutions, that is: nice, civilized socialism would evolve into a moneyless, egalitarian society with no rulers. It was Chopinesquely romantic and idealistic. The establishment of course used the older word anarchy (with its hints of chaos) instead of the -ism to frighten the petite bourgeousie into thinking of looting and mayhem. To be accurate I think of myself more as a democratic anarchist (wanting no ruler or authority other than common sense arrived at through civilized debate) than a libertarian because, unfortunately, the libertarian belief in total individual freedom has been often twisted by neo-reaganites to mean that they can be antisocial, unethical and greedy. These greedy buggers have taken a perfectly decent philosophy and interpreted it to justify survival of the fittest darwinism and have separated libertarianism's belief in free markets from it's kindler gentler cousin, classical democratic liberalism. Now you won't love me any more, Gerry. BTW you all seem to be gentlemen. I was expecting the usual anonymity-induced uncouthness and teenage internet-jock ad hominems on this forum. It seems so much more polite than some discussion boards I've posted on - especially the anarchist or libertarian ones. OOps! I guess I asked for one below the belt. Hamzen, do you want a response to your musings on British politics and the house/rave/ecstasy streetsmart neohippies or were you just indulging in a stream-of-consciousness thread of your own?

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:11:44 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: The Thunderstealing Bitch Subject: I still love you, thelma Message:

To be accurate I think of myself more as a democratic anarchist (wanting no ruler or authority other than common sense arrived at through civilized debate) than a libertarian because, unfortunately, the libertarian belief in total individual freedom has been often twisted by neo-reaganites to mean that they can be antisocial, unethical and greedy. These greedy buggers have taken a perfectly decent philosophy and interpreted it to justify survival of the fittest darwinism and have separated libertarianism's belief in free markets from it's kindler gentler cousin, classical democratic liberalism. It seems every good thing gets distorted and highjacked by nasty folks. Keep votin' libertarian. Here in Washington state where I live, over a million votes were cast for Libertarian candidates. Hey, it's a start...

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 12:28:46 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: The Thunderstealing Bitch Subject: Are you serious, here come the breakbeats, and Message:

the phat bass, won't ya fill me in, trying to get anyones ears opened about the huge number of countries getting hit by house culture is serious for me, well as serious as you can get about this stuff, even for a sad fucking trainspotter like me. Most people here have ears blocked since the 70's. The effect on brit culture has been enormous, and pretty invisible, because they've kept it all within normal materialist culture. One of the reasons I don't have any illusions about house stuff, which by thw way is 10 times larger in number than the sixties here, the only other culture it superficially relates to. Starting to kick off right across sud america now, blah de blah, the one area I do think it will have an effect maybe politically is the us of a. When you have midwest youths, in the numbers happening over the last 12 months, getting into e's, well when the media kicks in, there's gonna be an almighty political backlash, suspect especially with bush in, and the christian right. Re politeness, cause we're fucking polite, we were all premies, although when any lying revisionist premies turn up it can get a bit lively. So do ya know any good anarchist sites, ie non bullshit ones? Oh by the way, this forum is completely freeform, if you see a post, any post you're interested in, go for it. Although I suspect I'm in a minority here on this one, I think the off topic posts are as relevant as the on topic ones, after all we were all nuns without a life, short of an education etc, learning to think again etc And as though I could refuse a request from a thunderstealing bitch!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 18:46:45 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: Gerry an the trainspotter Subject: Are you serious? Message:

Thank you, Gerry, for saying you stil love me. Yep, I'll keep on wasting my vote on my Libertarian friends but they always get fewer votes than the Greens in this neck of the woods - too many endangered owls and whales and unreconstructed Birkenstock-shod hairy-armpit types here. My first two ex-husbands were English and you do twang my nostalgia strings with your trainspotting sweetness. But, as someone who crawled from sleeping-bag to sleeping-bag giving blowjobs to stoned hippies in the sixties, I can't relate to the house MUSIC and therefore it's culture. Always loved the sex and drugs but hated rock-n-roll. Prefer a rousing Stabat Mater or Requiem anyday. And, no, I don't know any Brit anarchist sites and I wouldn't recommend any of the US anarchist sites to you. You'd have to have the patience of a saint to deal with all the irony-challenged literal-minded second-generation hog-fuckers from Minnesota.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:43:47 (GMT) From: ham Email: ham@hamzen.freeserve.co.uk To: Thelma Subject: Nostalgia, yuch Message:

Well if I needed any reminding of what a sad fucking hippy I still am, you've done it there! And what's so sad is I half took that as a compliment! While talking of compliments, even bearing in mind your dodgy music taste, you're the first person who's been here that I had down as a possible raver, like your attitude. Still in this group of ancients, it's probably only sad fucking living hippy relics who could be so adolescent, c'est la vie. Re decent anarchist sites, not surprized, probably a contradiction in terms anyway, I certainly have never found one. As for greens/feminists, couldn't agree more, bearing in mind I am a 90% vegan, and have been for 20 years +. But that bogus, pc side of the eco movement always drove me nuts, I wouldn't mind, but none of them have a clue how to communicate. Just like premies, if you didn't get the message, it was your fault, absolutely no understanding of communication theory, let alone the way social change happens. Not that global warming matters now, it's way too late, what a generation of useless fuckers we were.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:14:35 (GMT) From: The Thunderstealing Bitch Email: None To: the ham Subject: PS to the Ham Message:

Sorry, should have started a new thread. We're too damn low down her and far removed from the original topic.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:11:23 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: ham Subject: Nostalgia, yuch Message:

You old ham, you. All of what I said was meant to be a compliment. I don't join too many other threads here because of the lack of irony (see Pauline the Premies thread above to see what I mean by 'irony-challenged second-generation hog-fuckers from Minnesota') and I have simply glommed onto your wordly-weary trainspotting sweetness with relief and glee. Living in the US has cured me of any illusion that, just because we speak English, we are speaking the same language. I just saw another post from a Brit saying that Yanks are irony-challenged. By irony I mean something a lot softer than sarcasm. Most Yanks prefer the latter and I have slipped into it in the 22 years I've lived here. You are, however, on the whole not a sarcastic person. You say: '...even bearing in mind your dodgy music taste, you're the first person who's been here that I had down as a possible raver, like your attitude. Still in this group of ancients, it's probably only sad fucking living hippy relics who could be so adolescent, c'est la vie.' Many of my friends are indeed ravers. Most of them are also 20 or more years younger than me (including my two current husbands) but I do know two who are my age, former hippie-fags-turned-ecstasy-fairies all of whose friends are also younger. They nag me to accompany them for all night dancing-on-ecstasy-orgies but it's hard with two husbands who are stuffier than me and don't like to rave. The music's okay if you're on E but my liver's too old for chemicals (other than claret and pot) which is why I still meditate. What you and I share with the ravers is the attitude - anarchistic, streetwise, slightly worldly-weary and strongly authority-wary, egalitarian and iconoclastic. My son is a raver who of course instinctively disliked M when I took him to see the Lard. He called M a 'jumped up little quasi-god.' He was raised mostly in UK and still lives there. And I love being an adolescent. Many wise men have trotted out the old horse 'with the heart of a child.' As for the rest of your trainspotting worldy-weary pessimism and self-recrimination - I say: 'I'm not too mad about the blues either. Like house, a little goes a long way.' Were you born in 1946, the Year of the Under Dog? PS I got a lot of email about my original posting and most of them were so sweet and sincere that I felt like a fraud and I had to confess to them that Thelma is only a pseudonym and I really have balls.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:40:14 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Thelma Subject: I knew it, yeah, praise the lord Message:

Well thank god for that, it means even on the net I can spot 'em a mile off, you leak raver energy all over the place, but it's the first time I've had my intuition tested on the net, and I think you'll have to agree 'the lad done well' You old ham, you. Well ya got to do something to pass the time, eh!, or as me ole gran used to say, god bless her cotton sox, 'to keep you off the streets and out of mischief'. All of what I said was meant to be a compliment. I thought so, although it wasn't crystal clear, but nostalgia gives me the willies & I just get so pissed off at my hippie niceness at times, really wish I had more of a punkish fuck you attitude, it would save me so much grief being so values oriented. I don't join too many other threads here because of the lack of irony (see Pauline the Premies thread above to see what I mean by 'irony-challenged second-generation hog-fuckers from Minnesota') and I have simply glommed onto your wordly-weary trainspotting sweetness with relief and glee. You should have been here a couple of months back if you reckon it's bad now, it drove me away for a while. The problem is that that is one of the worst by-products of cultdom, lack of/loss of social skills, and in a world where such stuff has developed/advanced enormously, but of course in gm's blissful paradise where only premies learn anything....blah de blah Living in the US has cured me of any illusion that, just because we speak English, we are speaking the same language. I just saw another post from a Brit saying that Yanks are irony-challenged. By irony I mean something a lot softer than sarcasm. Most Yanks prefer the latter and I have slipped into it in the 22 years I've lived here. You are, however, on the whole not a sarcastic person. Know EXACTLY what you mean, did have a whole thread on this a couple of months back, some right laughs I can tell ya, but then I have to be careful too, trainspotters can be a tad, well trainspotterish at times. Jim's caught me out more than a few times, good man that he is. You say: '...even bearing in mind your dodgy music taste, you're the first person who's been here that I had down as a possible raver, like your attitude. Still in this group of ancients, it's probably only sad fucking living hippy relics who could be so adolescent, c'est la vie.' Many of my friends are indeed ravers. Most of them are also 20 or more years younger than me (including my two current husbands) but I do know two who are my age, former hippie-fags-turned-ecstasy-fairies all of whose friends are also younger. They nag me to accompany them for all night dancing-on-ecstasy-orgies but it's hard with two husbands who are stuffier than me and don't like to rave. Two husbands eh, well that takes me back to a previous incarnation I'd rather forget, you could of course drop them off in the chill-out room and pop in to say high occasionally! The music's okay if you're on E but my liver's too old for chemicals (other than claret and pot) which is why I still meditate.You get a liver reaction on e's, even say on a third? even on mushies? that surprizes me, are we talkinng techno? trance? house? hi-nrg? obviously not drum&bass? what about alt type chill-out do's, multi-media, vj''ing etc?, sorry to be so specific, but I'm really trying to map the spread of it all in the us of a. What you and I share with the ravers is the attitude - anarchistic, streetwise, slightly worldly-weary and strongly authority-wary, egalitarian and iconoclastic. My son is a raver who of course instinctively disliked M when I took him to see the Lard. He called M a 'jumped up little quasi-god.' He was raised mostly in UK and still lives there. And I love being an adolescent. Many wise men have trotted out the old horse 'with the heart of a child.' Beautyifully put, can relate to big time, your son (how old?) sounds spot on, EVERYONE I know on the rave scene would say exactly the same thing, gm hasn't got a clue just how developed social mores are now, but then how could he when democracy is THE key component of that development. Sometimes think the premie community, especially the old timers, see social communication as a static thing, assume it's still exactly the same....nuff said As for the rest of your trainspotting worldy-weary pessimism and self-recrimination - I say: 'I'm not too mad about the blues either. Like house, a little goes a long way.' Shit we're gonna have to work on you 'thelma' methinks, just know you haven't heard other stuff, bet you've been hanging around with techno/trancers. Fancy going on me tape list? Your son dj by the way? Were you born in 1946, the Year of the Under Dog? PS I got a lot of email about my original posting and most of them were so sweet and sincere that I felt like a fraud and I had to confess to them that Thelma is only a pseudonym and I really have balls. Very predictable, knew it wasn't the whole story, born '52. Well Thelma, a big thanks for that post, NEVER thought the topic would come up here naturally, but it shows me I've still got some healing to do, if nothing else joining my post ev existence with before. Ohh by the way, I still meditate too, always got a massive amount from it, in fact left because it became obvious gm had experienced less than I had on it, and had no intention to share it wider. I've also got a good theory as to how it does work for those whom it does work for, did you know we all produce dmt naturally by-the-way? chemical bio-feedback I reckon. from one wannabee tranny to another! Hope even if it's too straitlaced for ya here, that you still post occasionally, your route is different enough to add to the flavours here bigtime, especially coming back after the long gap catch ya around ohh by the way, I'm an atheist emotionally, but intellectually an agnostic, although jim's argument about santa did put me on the spot, another time

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 04:37:11 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: ham Subject: I knew it, yeah, praise the lord Message:

I thought you were praising the lord because I had balls (Ah, silly me) when all you were doing was praising the lord that I was a raver. Did you see my new posting at the top of the page just above Pauline's delicious satire and your new thread?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:33:15 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Not quite accurate Thelma Message:

Praising the lord because it meant that I'd picked up on the raver energy coming off ya, and my intuition was accurate. Just read the thread, will e-mail ya.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 19:38:33 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Hey cuz... Message:

I live in McCleary Washington. Gotta few tree huggers here too. Nearby? PS what's wrong with hairy armpits :)

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 20:06:10 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: Hey cuz... Message:

Nothing wrong with hairy armpits. I love sniffing 'em especially with no deodorant or other chemicals. It's just that they are used by the Birkenstock crowd as an in-your-face politically correct statement. Don't like in-your-face politically correct statements.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 01:28:39 (GMT) From: GERRY Email: None To: Thelma Subject: yOu have...BOLLOCKS ?!? Message:

well I meant platonic love, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:38:18 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: None To: GERRY Subject: Platonic love Message:

At my age, platonic love is welcome and often more than I expect.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:13:22 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: ham Subject: So how about a def Gerr? Message:

I personally never made the connection between libertarians and those barbarians running around in the woods shooting off thier guns and their mouths. Maybe that's because there is no connection. I'm all for Thelma's brand but I can't allow the cartoonish description to pass without comment. Hell, I'm a libertarian and I'm no gun-toting nutcase. (Well, not gun-toting anyway.) If people would simply do a web search on the libertarian party, they would see what it's all about. And Thelma, the libertarian ideology is what makes the whole thing tick. It is an ideology. But it's the opposite of dogmatic. It's about allowing people the MAXIMUM freedom possible, without harming another's property or rights.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:49:53 (GMT) From: Thelma Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: libertarianism Message:

Sorry I pissed you off. I do know what libertarianism is and reagrd myself as one but there are some egomaniacal darwinistic survival of the fittest UN-democratic libertarians out there who give freedom a bad name. I'm the kind of libertarian who just wants to have some fun and get high with a little help from my frineds not some dogmatic ideologue.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 21:56:14 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Thelma Subject: libertarianism Message:

If you like to party, the libertarians are the ones for you! I don't understand why all liberal, freedom loving people don't embrace libertarianism. Liberty! Also check out Harry Browne's website. He was the Lib. candidate for pres this last election.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 20:15:32 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Thelma Subject: Fascist is a better term Message:

I'm not sure what 'undemocratic libertarian' means. I have always thought that Libertarians were just Republicans who don't believe in God. (That was an attempt at humor.) I think the better term for Maharaji is fascist. He exercises an extreme form of top-down dictatorship in his little cult-world, and requires extreme indoctrination, censorship and propoganda among his troops. Yes, I could see how they would appear to be Stepford wives. Part of the programming is that one is supposed to always act happy, even if you aren't, that all that goes wrong is due to you, or your mind, and that Maharaji is responsible for all the good stuff, little that it is, and none of the bad stuff. Closed, fascist system. Also, he requires that premies engage in self-censorship even with each other, and has even abandoned satsang so that he can prevent as little exchange of honest feelings and information as possible. Any premie who actually starts talking about what he or she is really thinking is quickly ostracized or shot down, made to feel guilty and stops, mostly out of fear. If he or she doesn't stop, he or she is pretty soon an ex-premie. Partly because his paranoid control regime is so transparent, he tries to fly below the radar and tries to keep himself out of the attention of the media. He has much more to lose by making some kind of a splash than he has to gain. Hence, there are hardly any aspirants because almost nobody even knows Maharaji exists anymore, despite continues and extensive fundraising to supposedly 'spread knowledge.' But he continues to hold on to his aging devotees from the 70s who still think he's god and haven't examined that issue for 25 or 30 years, because they are the major source of his funds.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 22:14:30 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Joe Subject: Great def of gm as usual Joe Message:

Specially loved 'he tries to fly below the radar', I got an image of him literally as an avatar superman , can you imagine, he'd hit the deck after twenty yards at 10mph, especially when he got distracted by some blonde on the ground. Wicked joke as well!!

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:53:46 (GMT) From: m Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

b

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 02:41:11 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

question 1- I do not practice the meditation anymore. Bad memories. I think the techniques are fine but they came with a lot of baggage. 2- As Scott said, how could the guru have changed in a meaningful way if he still blatantly denies the past? He has never taken any responsibilty for any of his actions. He denies and evades his Perfect Master, Agya, Satguru past when it seems to his advantage and then puts the whole dog and pony show on in India, and I believe invites the true believing '70s hanger oner insiders over to see it. The only way any change on his part would be real is if in a heartfelt soul searching way he looked at his past and dealt with it. That would mean a lot of apologies and even in some cases I believe financial restitution. I do not think he has the courage or character to ever face reality about the real legacy he has left on the lives he has impacted.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:34:27 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

Andrew: I think the meditation techniques have some value, though I don't know that it's more than other meditation techniques or even psychotherapy. The experience seems significant, but I'm open to the possibility that it's just a curiosity with no lasting value. I mean, it seems to calm me down sometimes, but deep breathing does that. I don't think it has made me either smarter or dumber, nor has it given me any special insight... at least not to the extent that scientific method has. As for your friend's attitude about Maharaji's 'maturation' my take is that if he never makes amends for his own past practices and for selling himself as some sort of avatar, and in fact has never so much as acknowledged he ever did any such thing, then I can't see that he's grown very much. I mean, he hasn't even done as much as a recovered alcoholic let alone a valid spiritual teacher. Your friend is self-deluded. BTW, how is Kevin? --Scott

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 17:41:41 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions../one answer to something else.... Message:

Andrew- I wanted to add one thing that I feel is EXTREMELY destructive and fraudulent about m's teachings...it is also one of the reasons, I believe, for so much of the anger that is directed at m... M presented himslef, as THE teacher, with THE answer....the tree amongst weeds,the avatar, the perfect master etc. etc. Implicit in this title or proclamation about himself, was the absolute message and belief that he was in, and always is in, THAT PLACE, (some sort of state of awakened or elevated consciousness)ALL the time, and that you weren't. But you could be, if only you tried harder. But you weren't, because you weren't trying hard enough. THAT, to me, is the beginning of a never ending game of (high and mighty)GURU and (lowly and undeserving)DISCIPLE (excuse me, disciple should probably be in lower case letters, but , what the hell...) When you buy into that game, you begin a never ending and never fulfilling game of trying to be perfect, which m certainly is not, and you aren't either,and then failing (inevitable), and then re-doubling your efforts to be a bettter devotee... One day, (for me it was personal events in my life, and to a large extent, this site), things caused me to wake up and realize how stupid,silly and destructive the whole process was. Another red flag for me was when I mentioned some of my doubts to a friend; he quickly and defensively replied that he had 'no doubts, and no concepts either'...I knew this was a crock of shit, because I knew him quite well...this led to more questioning.... But, to me, one of the most destructive and fraudulent things has been the belief that m implanted in us that he was always experienceing knowledge, and that we could only begin to approach his level of experience through a lifetime of slave like obedience and a non-questioning acceptance of everything (no matter how wrong or stupid) he ever said... Because you never are in THAT experience all the time,and you believe he is,you are continually trying harder to get to a place that you will never get to, and he has never been...\ OK, that's it, for now...thought you might be interested, even though it didn't really answer your 2 questions directly...

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 07:19:22 (GMT) From: Curious Gorge Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Thanks L A ex and Happy New Year Message:

Enjoyed this and many others of your post over this last year. Love, C.G.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 17:05:05 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

I think that it's outrageous that Trungpa's devotees or followers were faithfully following his dictates to not be attached etc., and meanwhile he was abusing alcohol, having sex with devotees etc. It's equally outrageous that Maharaji advocates a lifestyle of meditation and detachment and cannot practice it himself. Yes some of their teachings may remain valid for some, it's the relationship to the guru that is the destructive part. The guru is supposed to be someone who has mastered the techniques and is one with God/enlightenment. The devotees give their lives over to these incredibly dysfunctional people in faith and trust that they have a clue about reality. The whole fallacy of the guru trip is clear: no one has achieved 'Enlightenment' and it's a mistake for people to put their blind faith in other people. Most of the teachings put emphasis on the guru-disciple relationship and a lot of the teachings recommend things that are too extreme to be healthy, IMO. Hard to separate the teachings from the gurus but even if one can glean some good from the teachings,the guru's actions are the real deal--to me, that never changes. Better to abolish the idea of gurus altogether, IMO, and find some real people whose lives are worthy of emulating. No one is perfect, that's for sure, but certainly there are people in the world who do not set themselves up as perfect, can acknowledge when they have done something wrong and admit that they don't have all the answers. If you examine Maharaji carefully you'll notice that he never comes down from his lofty throne. This is a perfect human being? I don't think so.

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 15:02:02 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

Dear Andrew, I was only in the cult a couple of years in the 70's and have continued since that time, with varying commitment, to meditate on light and the word, only very recently moving beyond using those techiques only. Like ham, I don't use techniques and I have read of many other here that don't either. I never touch my eyes, when doing light and if I need a little boost to my concentration I only lightly touch my third eye with the tip of my finger. What I really wanted to comment on was the way your friend's defense of m reminds me of the way a friend of mine defends her relationship, not all women do it and it strikes me as making excusses and being to caught up in the other person. 'although he has made many mistakes in the past, he is growing and changing the whole time. She says that he is VERY different now than he was' The litmus test is when you look back 1, 5, 10, 20 years do you see striking change or is it really just little cyclical ups and downs that make staying the same look like change! I don't see strinking change for the better when I do that with m, that is 100% sure! Love, Robyn

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:10:44 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Bingo Message:

One of the definitions I once read of codependence is when you are in love with the other person's POTENTIAL> I think that what you said about looking back and seeing if there is real change or just cycling is the whole essence of the thing. There is no way that Maha is growing in the sense that we would define it. It is antithetical to the identity he has taken on, and continues to hold onto, white-knuckled, in the face of not only our derision and revelations but also the general world-wide increase in consciousness and lucidity about all this stuff. When we got into the cult (1971 for me) there was no information about the various forms of abuse he is now accused of. They weren't even considered abuse. No one had dissected the whole abuse-of-power thing. A lot of people were in a trance that 'there are enlightened people out there and I must become one,' or 'anything Eastern is superior to us worldly fools.' But now things have changed radically. Even though there wasn't much public sympathy for Mj ever, there is now well-argued wholesale derision. The problem I see that he has gotten into is that in order to really grow, he has to let go of all the things he is probably addicted to, in particular being right and in control and wielding power and being adored. Not to mention more mundane addictions which probably all support this central addiction. There is this guru, Amrit Desai, who made a shot at getting off his high horse and getting into more equality with students, then was discovered boffing a bunch of women and lying about it and got kicked out of his ashram (Kripalu).( If anyone is interested, this whole tale is included in the good book 'Yoga and the Quest for the Real Self' or the Supreme self or something. ) I read an interview with Amrit Desai recently in that idiot Andrew Cohen's magazine What Is Enlightenment, and I have to say that he really doesn't seem to have gotten off his high horse and into his humanness despite the resounding public kick in the butt. At least in that interview. I mention him because he is actually a more mellow and wise man than MJ. I want to actually hold open the possibility that MJ will have a real awakening - I mean a REAL awakening - and that this will be beneficial to the people he has hurt, either by apologies or amends or just the freedom of seeing him as human. I do strongly believe in holding open possibilities for everyone - even myself with a 20-year illness: I am definitely getting better. I must say that seems easier than his recovery, but who knows? Don't Know Disculta

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 18:35:49 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Request for source material of a quote Message:

'One of the definitions I once read of codependence is when you are in love with the other person's POTENTIAL.' - Disculta Hi Disculta, That thing you said which I copied above really opened up some doors for me. Do you remember where it came from? If not, no worries. That one line says alot. Clean organs really turn me on, you hoser you! Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 02:07:18 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: shp Subject: Request for source material of a quote Message:

Can't remember. It might have been Women Who Love Too Much or one of those early books. Ms. Cleanest Liver

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:24:06 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Disculta Subject: re that idiot Andrew Cohen Message:

Hi Disculta' I have a friend who is seriously into Andrew Cohen, a friend I respect very much. Since my own awakening from the cult trance, I have been thinking about him a lot. I've read a couple of Cohen's books and am both impressed and concerned. Can you give me your take on this? I don't want to take too much of your time, but what's with the idiot? love Kelly

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 22:43:21 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Don't go near him! Message:

He used to operate around here - used to hold his satsang in my old yoga school in fact, and I know several ex-followers. He is a big sleaze. My ex-husband used to work in a fancy men's clothing store. All his devotees used to come in to buy him presents. Then he would come in with some guys he hung out with (and my ex-hub said they definitely seemed to be gay, but this could be his imagination) and they would exchange these sacred gifts for cold, hard cash. His mother wrote a book about him - I believe it's called Mother of God, or God's Mother, or some such thing. Apparently it's a pretty funny expose. The thing is, he's clever. He manages to seem intellectual and spiritual and get people like Ken Wilber to respect him. When I first moved to California, I had someone cleaning my house who really seemed like a premie. She had that humble, selfless, low self-esteem energy about her. I asked her who her guru was (which quite took her aback) and it was him. He considers himself perfect and better than his own guru (Poonjaji) whom he says he is morally superior to. I heard a tape of him having a kind of Advaitan cosmic duel with Ganga Ji, another Poonjaji follower greatly revered in this neck of the woods. They were each trying to prove each other wrong in the most hysterical way. He had a kind of whiny vibe and I was repulsed by him. And, as you know, I'm really into lots of spiritual stuff. I'm not just doing the 'it's spiritual and it's a teacher so it sucks' thing here. I have a friend who is an ex-follower who you can call if you're seriously feeling tempted. He will cure you, and he'll do it very funnily. Kelly, e-mail me if you want to talk more about it or call him. Love Disculta

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 01:43:38 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Disculta Subject: low spark of high heeled boys Message:

Oh, god, is it that obvious? When I first moved to California, I had someone cleaning my house who really seemed like a premie. She had that humble, selfless, low self-esteem energy about her. I asked her who her guru was (which quite took her aback) and it was him. Are we marked for life? For me, yes! All those years putting Maharaji on the pedestal and myself in the gutter.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:33:22 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everybody Subject: Does Anybody Know What 'Low Spark Of High-Heeled Message:

Boys' really means? Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 13:53:28 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Only guessing Steve but Message:

suspect the low spark refers to the crutch/genitals, ie male, and they all wore cuban high heeled boots, the other possibility is that like the Kinks' 'Lola' is about trannies.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 03:04:08 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: low spark of high heeled boys Message:

I know. Wasn't Disculta's description of that perfect? But don't worry, it's not a life sentence. (she said, neurotically casting her eyes downward lest she sound too proud of herself). I love that song by 'traffic', BTW. Brings back memories of driving out west in a van with my family, all 7 of us plus my sister's boyfriend, in 1968. We had an 8 track tape deck and listened to the same 4 tapes over and over. They were: Traffic Paul Simon Mamma Cass Beatles over and over and over again. Happy New Year!

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 12:43:31 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Helen Subject: Great album, great band, Message:

one of the few bands from back in the day I've still got any time for, Stevie Winwood, underrated, but did he lose the plot in the 80's or what, is he still doing stuff, probably in his sleep. Saw a tape of csny recently, recent stuff, god it was embarrassing, think NY was holding them all up by props.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:33:03 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: ham Subject: Great album, great band,(ot) Message:

Yes, loved them (Traffic)! God it was great growing up in the 60's and 70's and having older siblings bringing home all this great music. Winwood's other later stuff isn't so bad, IMO, it's very singable. Then again my musical tastes are probably too pedestrian for you., Mr. Raver! I am actually having a Broadway musical sing a long party for my 43rd birthday in a few weeks. The cornier the better. I like just about every kind of music, what can I say? I know what you mean about csny. Thing is all those old rockers are just so happy to still be alive after abusing their bodies so badly all those years. Crosby has his new liver and alot of them are parents for the first time. A bunch of old fogies. They've lost their edge, they're just grateful not to be dead as doornails. Do they have VH1's show 'Face the Music' over thar in England? It's totally addictive, stories abotu all those rockers. Have a happy new year Hammie. Come to the states sometime and we'll go out dancing.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 23:22:41 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Helen Subject: If I ever get over I'll definitely take you up Message:

on that! It would be a total pleasure I know. I did find the arc of a diver pretty shallow, and haven't heard anything since, but Stevie Winwood, his organ playing, just thinking about him circa 68-74 gives me the shivers. I guess I'm a psychedelic snob! It might seem a contradiction but older stuff, especially roots music I can still get off on, but I must admit, house stuff on chemicals, fuck off sub-bass, such a TOTAL body experience, it's the sheer intensity of it, with the really GREAT vibes, this generation is so sussed, mind you they probably wouldn't be if it wasn't for all the idiotic ideological mistakes we've made. Hey Helen, I'm after some folk music to remix, it would be great to work on stuff by someone I've had contact with, have you got anything recorded, ideally on cd, that you'd risk. I'm sure I remember you saying that you and your hubby did stuff. PS Supposedly there's some great folk based mixed with house stuff being produced by some young punky folky females at the mo here, one of them is out of the Waterson family, another name coming to mind is Kate Rusby (sp?), you heard anything? It's supposed to be great, not dodgy fusion music.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 02:55:26 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: ham Subject: If I ever get over I'll definitely take you up Message:

Haven't heard of the punky folkie artist you refer to. We are on a few CDs mostly singing back up stuff on a friends' CDs. They were recorded in some guy's garage--he mixes alot of stuff for folkies around here and his prices are cheap. When singing into the mike, it was covered over with old panty hose (as a sound absorber)--we are talking really low tech here. As folkies go, there are a few folkies here in the DC area who really are something. When you are talking about remixing, what exactly do you mean? I hope to come to England someday as well. Will look you and Nigel up if I do. Happy new year once again Hell

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 04:03:36 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Helen Subject: That'd be well cool Message:

Haven't heard of the punky folkie artist you refer to. We are on a few CDs mostly singing back up stuff on a friends' CDs. They were recorded in some guy's garage--he mixes alot of stuff for folkies around here and his prices are cheap. When singing into the mike, it was covered over with old panty hose (as a sound absorber)--we are talking really low tech here. Recorded on 4-track? Reel-to-reel? If you could turn a couple of tracks into mp3 from the cd's it would be ok, or send over a cd if ya fancy, but ideally if you could get individual tracks off a 4-track say, and turn them into mp3's or put on a cd that would be excellent. As folkies go, there are a few folkies here in the DC area who really are something. When you are talking about remixing, what exactly do you mean? Re remixing, chopping bits out of the tracx, overlaying other instruments, adding fx/effects, you could be a dance diva yet! That's why getting the individual trax is better, because then you can get seperate/individual instrument breaks and work on them without other instruments getting in the way, ooohhhh I could do stuff to your vocals that would give you nightmares. To give you an example, changed some vocals the other week, mine/absolutely appalling, can't sing for toffee, and turned it into this deep dark sub-bass growly sound. Obviously I wouldn't do anything so extreme with yours, just add some beats, fatten up the bass, add some effects to the vocals (gentle) or lead instruments. It really would be good to see ya, suspect knowing the constant state of my bank balance, that you over here is more likely! By the way, give that man of yours a hug for us, for some reason I feel a lot of warmth for him. If I get hold of some of that new folkie stuff will send, and I know, still haven't sent you a tape yet, will arrive this year, promise, the last 6 months a bit of a nightmare for me, loads of catching up to do in a number of areas! Do you know the'West Coast of Clare'? Would love to do a remix of that, Nigel gave us a copy on cassette a while back by Planxty, love it, one ofg my fave trax of all time, love to have a copy of ya doing that.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 15:04:35 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: ham Subject: Great album, great band, Message:

He was my favourite musician for half of the nineties. Check out his last two cd's - you can find them on Amazon. Steve

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 05:08:08 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Helen Subject: low spark of high heeled boys Message:

Yes, Disculta's description or generalization was too perfect. God, I now I'm afflicted bad after 25+ years of sucking up water like a vegetarian. Yes, Happy New Year to you, too, Helen! Oh, my god, it's only Day 2 of the New Year and I'm tired already.

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Date: Wed, Jan 03, 2001 at 21:26:33 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: low spark of high heeled boys Message:

I seem to be on a positive roll these days (these very recent days, well, okay, I've been in a good mood for about 3 days, snicker). I hope it's a sign that 2001 will be better than 2000. Do you find the recent revelations of Dettmer's to give you a sense of closure, or was it very disturbing for you? A serious question. How did it affect you? Hell

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Date: Thurs, Jan 04, 2001 at 03:43:37 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Helen Subject: no, it wasn't that disturbing Message:

No, the Dettmers' revelations where not that disturbing nor unexpected. I've been hearing little stories for a long time and have more than suspected that he is as indulgement and humanly weak as all the rest of us. Other than him having all that money I feel sorry for him. But, there is some closure that came with Dettmers' up close and personal accounts, yes.

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Date: Tues, Jan 02, 2001 at 00:20:27 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Wouldn't touch him with a barge pole Message:

Dear Disculta, Don't worry I ain't goin' nowhere near no guru nor teacher nor preacher in a long long time. Mind you I went to church on Christmas eve, sadly boring! BUT, I am seriously concerned for my friend. It was a strange thing when I finally saw through Miragey and his cult, because , one of my first queestions was 'are there any true real teachers out there?' and I wondered whether this guy Cohen might be for real, so have been doing a bit of checking, mostly out of concern for my friend. But, what can you do? I have been talking to one premie friend about my new perspective, and we end up agreeing about almost everything, but the big difference is that for him it still doesn't matter, but for me it does! Love Kelly ps I would like to talk more on this and I would like to talk to him, at least that's possible

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:30:37 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

Hi Andrew 1) To what extent is Knowledge independent of M (not in an historical sense which we know it is, but in a psychological sense)? Do any of you who have rejected M still practice Knowledge because of the strength of the meditation techniques themselves? A good question, I still meditate, although light and music I was able to experience without the techniques for years before I left. But I do have a problem with it. When meditating I still experience stuff just as strongly, but I can't do it regular regular, ie long term because of the years of association, a lot of anger comes up. I suspect that when you leave it depends on how close you were to the whole thing. Suspect that those who were closer find it harder. Suspect that if I had walked early it would be no problem. Too much gm programming leaked in, he is VERY repetitive in his talks, you get the drift 2) I have a friend I respect very much who is a premie and has been one since the DLM started. When I relayed some of the information that I had read on this site and another to her, she told me that she had heard it all before through the grapevine (although not the story about M killing a man in India). She told me that she is perfectly aware of all this 'weird stuff' that went on but said that it all happened a while back. She says that M is a human (although divinely connected in her opinion) and that, although he has made many mistakes in the past, he is growing and changing the whole time. She says that he is VERY different now than he was (for example, he is no longer an alcoholic). Is this true? Do any of you have uptodate information? And if he has changed, to what extent can we judge somebody's message by their past behaviour - or even, I suppose, their present behaviour. (I personally love reading books by the Tibetan lama Chogyam Trungpa which I find very inspiring. I am also aware that he led an outrageous life and eventually died of AIDS, but that seems to make absolutely no difference to my respect for his teachings. I suppose the difference for me is that this man did not set himself up as anything other than a teacher from a tradition that was larger than himself.) On this issue I think you need to look at why you find approaches inspiring. If the people who supposedly practised their routes were so unable to reach somewhere special then there is no special spiritual place, just a bunch of body feedback techniques. Suspect you need to take the juju out of the process. This need for belief in a spiritual route or realm, or god, is the hook, hope etc. In the end it's just about living and the moment, everything else is about hope, hope for somewhere that is better than the actual reality. As for gm now, well in India recently he harangued the listeners to one of his talks to not just sing the words to arti, but really mean it. The words are explicit in arti, HE is de man, lord of lords etc, he still does darshan, which is the same stuff, he recently bought a massive yacht, a very expensive new plane, put on his web site that he never said he was the man etc. The guy is still lying through his teeth, and for the same reason you still look for inspiration so do his followers who are still hanging on WHATEVER the actual reality. Some followers will be in denial for ever, it's just too difficult to come to terms with. Certain that stuff is still kicking off just takes time to leak through, this is peoples whole life wasted on one level, takes a long time to come to terms with

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:41:06 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: hamzen Subject: PS Message:

Suspect it would be easier to meditate more if I wasn't coming here, those periods where I'm not visiting, the distance from all the memories increases greatly. But as in all things in this life, there is a price to pay, so....

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 14:51:53 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: ham Subject: PS Message:

Dear ham, I like what you said about in the moment and everything else just being hope, so true. You may know this about me but I am trying to face things so starkly and honestly, no hope just trying to confront my reality as much as possible but I guess in my efforts and the successes I have with them that there is some hope there also, for good things to come of it. So glad I got out early and don't have that anger cause I love experiences, spontaneous or through meditation, that prove to me that there is much more to this life then what is on the surface. For me it is mostly a solitary thing though, keep it totaly personal and customized just for me. :) Happy New Year sweetie! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 18:11:24 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Think you had a lot more sense than me Message:

If only I'd got out early, suspect if I hadn't been in a premie marriage it would have helped, but there ya go, learning from mistakes etc. The other side is that I did it all in one big chunk, now re-balancing the other way, sometimes wish I wasn't so gung-ho in everything I do, but again, what is is etc etc

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Date: Mon, Jan 01, 2001 at 10:36:16 (GMT) From: Aussi Ji Email: None To: Andrew Subject: Two questions... Message:

G'Day Andrew, I will just answer your first question.I have over the years modified one of the techniques that I was shown when I received knowledge 26 years ago.I meditate nearly every day,sometimes more than once.I have modified it to suit myself and I look forward to sitting down to practise it as it takes me into that part of myself where I experience peace and a feeling of real freedom.That is it.I just enjoy it and I have no idea about god and spiritual matters at all.I guess you could say it is my own internal drug that is free of charge.It has NOTHING to do with Maharaji at all.NOTHING.It is mine alone. I hope this is of some assistance to you Andrew Cheers Aussi Ji.

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