Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 11:57:03 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Challenges !! Message:

A few responses from different threads -- I haven't quite got the hang of these threads, I post somewhere and oops ! the message pops up in a different place ! When I was just reading this Forum, I thought that messages proceeded downwards in a thread in chronological order, which is not how it happens. I THOUGHT some previous threads didn't make sense !! It's also time-consuming tracking everything I want to respond to; quite different from just skimming the Forum as a reader now and again. I have just found a post from Jim to me, but within a posting to Patrick ! A gentler, kinder Jim as well... Jim writes: 'you come in telling us that you were never caught up like we were (I'd still love to see your argument on this) and implying that there was some golden path none of us ever knew of that took one -- you, in fact -- right through the cult maze and out the other side unfazed' I am sorry if you get this idea from what I wrote. I know I can come across and aloof and superior. The truth is the opposite. I feel amazingly caught up, and still am. I spent years (I got K in early 1970) traveling like a yo-yo -- bathing in the inner circle, and then cast into outer darkness, and then selling my soul in order to crawl back up the ladder to the inner circle. And like everyone else, I grovelled to those nearer the inner circle than me, and felt vastly superior to those lower down in the hierarchy than me. Here is my main point to EVERYBODY: I am challenged by your questions ! Phew, that was hard to get out ! Jim was right, I came in responding to Anth's sly comment 'I have it on good authority that Mike is not a premie...' with a posting that set out my certainties. 'Well, no I am not in this sense, and yes I am in that sense,and I feel this and I experience that...' Questions that challenge me are: Joe: 'Can you say anything critical about Maharaji? It's a good test, Mike. If you can't, then I think you are in a cult' Anth: 'Could you explain, or summarise, anything 'Good and worthwhile that M teaches'? Remotely will do fine.' Gerry: 'the ironic part of all this is that these same people could have the 'experience' without Rawat, EV and all that messy baggage' Susan: 'His character matters. It matters a lot. I think you still have some things to examine about your time in EV/DLM and the mark it has made on you.' I have not got any answsers. Hey guys, just a week ago I was anonymous and snug in 'my experience', a fully paid-up premie, whose idea of living wild was to sneak to Forum V when no one was looking ! -- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:43:32 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Joe and Mike: demystifying the ''experience'' Message:

First my apologies to all of you. Whenever ten good conversations are taking place the threads get sucked out of the forum drain at the bottom faster than you can read them. When the active index contains three nonsensical threads such as I helped to create yesterday in a fit of righteous anger there's not much space left for the intriguing conversations. Mea culpa. Hopefully other newbies will learn from my mistake. Joe, as I mentioned to you at dinner last night, currently I'm thinking about putting into words my explanation to myself about what I ''experienced'' from my involvement in the ''Maharaji'' phenomenon. Mike, my intellectual journey as a westerner living in a democratic society based on scinece and reason made me stop believing in a monotheistic creator long before I stopped believing in ''Maharaji.'' Shaking off the superstition that I ''neeeded a Master'' to keep my ego in check was the hardest part of my deconstruction. Last week there were several accounts of peoples' metaphysical experiences in darshan but none of you eggheads stepped in to demystify them as you have done with the kriyas (some clever brain wave theories, articles in Newsweek - the thinking wrestling fans' ''serious'' magazine - and orgone machines or something like that.) Ham said to Jim that the forum was starting to sound like the post-satsang chitchat sessions. I agree. Let's get some serious demystification going. I would really like to hear some clear, opinionated, voices on this topic. I realize that there are going to be at least two points of view: those of you who have thrown out both the baby and the bathwater and those of you who just threw out the baby because it was getting too fat to be pampered anymore and too expensive to feed but who kept the bathwater and recycled it. Part of my demystification of darshan (and the bhakti voodoo of which it is a central stratagem) will be that everything that I experienced within the ''Maharaji'' phenomenon was generated by me. I'm not a psychologist so I can't deconstruct it that way but would like to hear your thoughts from that angle. I also know that it was completely subjective and that, if we thought we were all experiencing the same thing - the socalled Knowledge, we were wrong. Each of us generated our own idiosyncratic experience and then assumed it was the same because it all came from one source. Wrong. It arose from our individual expectations and was as unique to each of us as our finger prints. Why do you think the Beas cults invented the idea of the Satguru? Yep - to ''synchronize'' their devotees, make them all believe that they were experiencing the same thing. If you study the Beas cults you will see that they arose as a challenge to the proselytization of British Christian missionaries in India and the Radhasoami gurus began to see themselves as messiahs long before Mr Rawat or his father did. Something happend to all of us to draw us to the Rev Rawat in the first place. Whatever that was was unique to each of us but we were told that it was the same thing from the one true source. What utter garbage. That socalled ''feeling inside'' is just that: incommunicable, undescribable, unknowable by another unless they were given ESP the last time they were abducted by a UFO. I threw out the baby for the first time 22 years when I was penniless in Miami (after the Kissimee extravaganza) and had to sleep on the roof of the satsang hall in Coral Gables and wash dishes for a week in a dive until I had enough money to get a place to stay. I was miserable, alone, frightened, a stranger in a strange land with no money and I've always had too much pride to ask for help. The third night that I climbed up onto the roof when all the premies had gone home I realized that the only help I usually got was from me anyway. Okay so I picked up the baby a year later and threw it away again and again until it was so battered I had finally had to call the morgue but by that time I had turned the bathwater into wine for myself. NOT for others. What I feel in the privacy of my own consciousness is for me alone. The mystique of the bhakti voodoo finally disappeared for me when I realized that I preferred the wine that I made out of the bathwater to the baby. So I just let it cry in the corner with dirty diapers while I got drunk. Then recently it stopped crying and I called the coroner. Mr Rawat did not make that wine. In fact he often pissed in the bath water quite selfishly and callously. I made that wine. We all made our own wine. Anything that we experienced came from our own efforts. It is we who choose whether we like our wine sweet or sour or bitter or just nicely balanced between acid and tannin or with a hint of unexpected fruitiness. No, I don't need to be a servant to a ''Master'' in some mystical reconstruction of Hindu feudalism. I'll take my chances that democracy will keep my ego in check and my mortality will curb my pride. Like the wandering saddhus, who scorn gurus as being necessary only for weakminded peasants, I'll make my own journey of discovery.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 12:54:30 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Conlon Subject: Good point, Conlon Message:

Thanks for putting this thought into words. Even when I was still trapped, I was always amazed at how each of us seemed to interpret the words of maha differently. I found myself hypothesizing(when in my mind, of course)that we all heard his bullshit in such a way as to allow us to rationalize our lack of total commitment/devotion and carry on with the necessities of life in this world. Now, I see that no matter what effort I made it never would have been enough because part of his trip seems to be keeping his victims down-so as to continue the NEED for him.

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 19:02:56 (GMT) From: Conlon Email: None To: JTF Subject: Guilty for having an ego, JTF Message:

That's one of the hardest cult indoctrinations to break for us old saddhus.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:23:05 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Conlon Subject: demystifying the ''experience'' Message:

Conlon said: 'Last week there were several accounts of peoples' metaphysical experiences in darshan but none of you eggheads stepped in to demystify them ' Thanks for bringing that idea back up. As the originator of a thread, way down in the inactives, titled 'Satguru or Not Guru', I was attempting to make sense out of those profound non-ordinary experiences. If you followed the thread, several posters did step in and said something similar to what you've just said. It was US who brought our unique mindset to the party. WE were the ones having those unexplainable experiences. WE brought our expectations that helped create the mysticism. GMJ provided a focal point and it was fun for awhile. I realize what follows may be revisionist justification for spending 3 years in the ashram but... I think that, at least in the early days, GMJ was the conduit for some powerful energy. His 'Satguru-ness' devolved into the 'Bhakti-Juju (love that term - says it all) Auto K-Lite / send a check' that we see today. But those earlier experiences and the reverential nostalgia about them, and capitalizing upon them by M plus M's charismatic sway, keeps many old-timers hooked. The newcomers may look to those grey-haired PWK's as evidence that 'something mystical is going on here'. So the myth continues. Without the believers, there is no belief and nothing to believe in. Generally I think all religions begin with some type of metaphysical experiences (burning bush, struck dumb on the road to Damascus) and devolves to a belief system via stories told by the ones who had those experiences. One other point that may be helpful. Once I no longer needed an authority figure to tell me wassup, M became just an arrogant speaker filled with strange ideas and bad poetry. Postie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 20:06:39 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Postie Subject: Excellent Point Message:

I agree that an interpretation that some kind of 'experience' is mystical, out of the ordinary, spiritual, divine, or whatever, can keep somebody habitually going back to the same site where they had that ONE 'experience,' numerous times, maybe for a lifetime. Of course, this is supported by being told over and over, either in 'satsang' in the old days, or in watching videos or satellite events these days, that THE experience is what it's all about. I prefer to call what I 'experienced' in darshan, when I thought it was what I was supposed to experience, as an experience of my own faith and expectations. Those 'experiences' were rare. All the rest of the dozens of times I went through darshan, for example, and had no experience whatsoever except boredom and confusion, I attributed to my lack of effort in practice, lack of grace, or beine 'in my mind.' So what happens when one remembers those 'experiences?' It's human nature to exaggerate in memory 'good' experiences, especially for a premie, because it is SO IMPORTANT to HAVE a 'good' experience. If you don't, it throws into question the belief system which the Maharaji cult is REALLY about. It is such crap that it's 'just about an experience.' It's a belief system that says it isn't one. So, as a premie, you discount the vast majority of 'nothing' experiences, exaggerate the so-called 'good' experiences, attach a lot of spiritual or mystical mumbo/jumbo to them, and convince yourself you actually had THE experience. That's certainly what I did. As has been said on this forum repeatedly, what the Maharaji-cult is at its most basic is a cult of attribution. You attribute good stuff to Maharaji and knowledge and bad stuff to You and your mind. Very simple that Maharaji and knowledge come out pretty well in that kind of skewed evaluation. The other things that keeps people going, are cult-ambition, of going up into the hierarchy or inner circle. There is a whole group of PWKs who operate in that miserable and bizarre world. Then there are the 'group-highs' people might get at an 'event,' and the desire to want to believe in something 'real.' But I think Maharaji has a really hard time holding on to people in the knowlege-lite era. I think that's why what we have heard, that people who received K in the 90s have largely fallen away, leaving the more indoctrinated from the 70s, it probably true.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:36:24 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Mike Finch Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Mike, I’m very glad that you have mustered up the courage to join this conversation. Your admission that you don’t have the answers to the challenging questions that have been posed to you is admirable and a tremendous step forward in the process of reclaiming your freedom. When I first posted on the Forum last April, I had already been out of the cult for over a decade. Nevertheless, I found it very difficult to criticize Maharaji given all of the close personal time we had spent together. I also rationalized that I had put it behind me and had moved on with my life. Thanks to Roger’s expose and Jim’s persistent but respectful efforts to engage me in conversations, I soon realized that my past could not so easily be swept under the carpet. At first I responded cautiously, my principal motive being to clear up some of the misrepresentations that had been made about me. Most people saw through this, however, and I was justifiably criticized and challenged with a barrage of questions, many of which I ducked I also received a large number of e-mails in support of my feeble efforts at stepping out of the shadows with encouragement to be more forthcoming. During this period, I got to know Susan and, for the first time, became aware of the Jagdeo situation. This matter so disturbed me that I wrote a personal letter to Maharaji, enclosing a letter from Susan, since Élan Vital claimed that none of the alleged victims had ever come forward. When Maharaji and Élan Vital chose to ignore our efforts to have them address this most egregious matter, I was so disgusted that I came to the conclusion that I had a responsibility to expose Maharaji and his cult before it was allowed to perpetuate any further damage. As I came forward with the facts about Maharaji that are now well documented on this site, I received, and continue to receive, e-mails expressing gratitude from people all over the world who are now free from the cult, in part because of my revelations. In retrospect, I realize that I was selfish and blind to think that I didn't have a responsibility to try and undo some of the damage caused by the cult and its degenerate leader that I had assisted for so many years. Once again, Mike, I commend you for engaging with us and I encourage any other PAM’s who may be lurking to follow Mike’s lead. Michael

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:06:39 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Thank you Michael for your support. This glare of publicity is still quite new to me, and I'm still kind of blinking in the sunlight trying to orientate myself ! -- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:37:12 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Michael Dettmers n Mike F Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Yes, I also have Dettmers to thank somewhat, as well as Pat Conlon, Joy and Joe. I personally know Pat, Joy and Joe, and reading Mike Dettmers's posts let me know that even those in the inner circle knew there was trouble in paradise. Since then, Marianne, Susan and many folks on this forum are a voice of sanity, and I thank you all.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:31:53 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Hi Mike, It's really good to see you posting here, and I hope you stick around for a while. I did have it on good authority by the way, that you were no longer a premie, you told me yourself when I publicly confessed to burning your life's work on a bonfire. (Yes, I know I omitted the bit about you saying you weren't an ex- either. But I'm a poet and propaganda officer and I have a licence.) I'm glad it prompted you to post anyway. Do you think your perspective on it all is in a state of change at the moment? (I thought I'd ask an easier one this time.) Anth stumbling slyly around in the ashes.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 15:43:48 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: AJW Subject: Easy Question Message:

Anth writes 'Do you think your perspective on it all is in a state of change at the moment? (I thought I'd ask an easier one this time.)' This IS an easy question ! Definitely, wholeheartedly absolutely Yes. -- Mike BTW, why can't all you other guys and gals ask me easy questions like this ?!

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:25:18 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Some thoughts before bed Message:

Hello Mike I'll be interested to see your thoughts and responses over time. As I said, if there's any feelings you want to share privately I am more than happy to receive a call. I'm just thinking that it may be helpful as a bit of light relief from having to type all the time - and just converse for a while relatively normally. Also I don't underestimate the emotional turmoil that this sort of discussion can stir up - it did in me... for years actually - definitely if like you say, you are so fresh from being a fully paid up active premie (whatever that means ) you might find it brings up a lot of loyalty issues. My advice is to never to be to hard on oneself but to take a continued interest in moving towards a broader understanding of these things - trusting in one's integrity and good faith. The reason I undertook such a major reality check over my involvement and beliefs about Maharaji was that I felt that I was losing my integrity. My conscience and health was screaming at me louder and louder to take steps to get real. One thing that helped break the 'spell' of dependency was that I absolutely convinced that the fear-mongering aspect of Maharaji - which I perceived first hand and was deeply uncomfy about - was not a quality of a loving God and never could be in my heart of hearts. So I was sure that at the very least I should really confront in myself how much I was just following M because of fear -fear that is in many guises. I soon discovered that M himself had implanted that fear. Maharaji's need for wealth, women, booze etc. is also of course telling, but it was primarily the more personal ways that I felt abused from having entrusted myself so completely to him for so long, that I strive to understand and come to terms with. If you find the time - I would like you to read my 'Journey' (bearing in mind that I wrote it quite a while ago but it expressed feelings that I suspect you may have now). I have found that making the effort to express and consider things deeply (putting pen to paper can focus one enormously to get clear) is a very powerful and liberating thing. Why not pen your own? Enshrine your feelings from this moment in time for posterity and history! Maharaji has surely effectively discouraged people for a long time from 'thinking' and questioning things that beg to be addressed. Moreover he has not encouraged free expression -honest expression. This has bred a society of suppressed individuals and it is reflected in the arrested development and paranoia within his organisation and in many of the lives of his followers - as no doubt you will concur. I would strongly maintain that the Truth cannot be damaged by close inspection - only good can come from honestly seeking truth. Both you and I are examples of people who have followed Maharaji's instructions - to the letter -for years. We are particularly in a position to comment on the true results of Maharaji's so-called Master Class. Thus I stress, and would encourage you to appreciate, how important and good it can be for the likes of us, to not only warn others of the pitfalls of this religion (for that is how I see it) but also to make sure Maharaji himself does not avoid the issue and merely remain a 'distant' potentate, out of touch with reality and misusing his considerable power to further abuse the trust of more innocent and unwary people. The fact that he seeks so clearly to obfuscate his behaviour, his part in the messes and the past is extremely telling. Don't forget, we have sung the praises of the experience for years -let's balance that out abit by speaking truthfully of the other effects! My growing impression is that many of he most committed and sincere premies are now suffering feelings of isolation and increasing disenchantment within the heirarchy that Maharaji betops so absolutely - I think they sense that he is NOT as formerly thought (because he had said he was like the Lotus etc) so immune from the corruptiveness of power after all. They are seeing this because the mounting plain evidence has simply overpowered their wishful thinking, their good faith, that things were all well. We who gave him that power which he exercises so absolutely - owe it to him and to humanity to set the record straight. No one else can do it better right now. The more I have faced the truth about Maharaji - both from my experiences practicing Knowledge and from using my brain - my mind and my common sense - the more I am disappointed to find that there is not so much of the Divine at play. There is however a LOT of the very prosaic at work. At least that is my honest perception so far. I believe Maharaji owes it to us to address our problems if he truly believes he is a Master - but I don't see him as being about to do that at all - I see him avoiding the issues at every turn and behaving in an unkind and irresponsible manner to us - as is demonstrated by his arrogant and dismissive manner towards anyone who does not toe the line in the grossly constraining - expected / acceptible manner. You said: I'm getting in a bit deeper than I anticipated when I started !! Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound, as they say. Now I'm getting a bit carried away too - but it helps to consider these things doesn't it? You spoke of your 'divine inspiration' or something to Jim (as against logical or mental understanding?) - Maybe whatever that is to you , is telling you to take the bull by the horns - work out to whom you owe allegiance - what forces actually seek to undermine your happiness and integrity - your conscience - you know.. whatever you want to call the good stuff - your 'heart'- why not? I could certainly say that it was my heart that made my question the wisdom of putting so much trust in Maharaji and so little in my God given better sense of judgement. My heart was starved in the end as a premie!! Now, one other extremely devilish, naughty yet irresistable thought crossed crossed my mind today, which I simply must share. You know that Maharaji has been a bit of a fan of the old Cognac over the last few decades. And also, you know how often he has quoted from 'Kahlil Gibrahn' over this exact same period. I am wondering if this is not entirely coincidental. I wonder if Maharaji may himself have heard that Kahlil in real life was a hopeless drunk and sexual obsessive - who died a sorry alcoholic. So maybe Maharji could relate in more ways than one way to this chap! I often wondered why he was so persistent in quoting Kibran, who after all is by no means known as one of the regular gang of illustrious past Perfect Masters , Satgurus, Saints etc. whom Maharaji and his dad had usually quoted in the past to add weight and endorsement to their own teachings. Maybe, I impishly suggest... just maybe... he was mindful that, if he was ever discovered as being a little .. shall we say...'over fond of the bottle', he could simply justifiably retort (having erstwhile cleverly elevated Gibrahn in the minds of premies to the status of 'Kosher Master') - 'hey, look at Kahlil Gibrahn - he was a drunk too! Us Masters you know - we're beyond all that though! Don't worry!' Anyway, I set out here just to say a quick 'hi' and look how I've rambled on - does this remind you of my past satsangs - probably!! Actually I might post some of this rambling on the forum too - I think others can relate! Bye for now Patrick (At last enjoying the miraculous benefits of a DSL connection -I can be on the forum 24 hours a day!)

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 15:37:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Bravo Patrick, a ' best of' post (nt) I Message:

I am out of down due home Monday

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 23:53:02 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Easy Question or two (or three) Message:

Was your comment at the end of your Challenges!! post - where you said that only a week ago you were a fully paid-up premie - meant to be sarcastic? Because obviously it sort of contradicts your initial stance of not being a premie or an ex. Did you ever think maharaji was a Divine Being, a la Lord of the Universe/Perfect Master/etc? If so, when did your opinion change, or has it even? Are you afraid of maharaji? Have you kept in touch with any of the old gang from England - I can't remember how long you were in Manchester, but most of us reverred you as some sort of 'sanyasin', mostly from the enviable way you could sit bolt upright meditating for more than 3 hours without fliching. (Can you still do that BTW?)

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:04:41 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Easy Question or two (or three) Message:

Bazza writes 'Was your comment at the end of your Challenges!! post - where you said that only a week ago you were a fully paid-up premie - meant to be sarcastic? Because obviously it sort of contradicts your initial stance of not being a premie or an ex.' Yes, kinda sarcastic. As far as most people was concerned I was a 'fully paid-up' premie. The doubts and concerns I express here have been developing over a period, but only expressed to a few people privately (eg Anth). That is what I meant by 'fully paid-up' I'll answer your other questions later (I'm hungry and going for dinner !) -- Mike

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Date: Fri, Feb 02, 2001 at 00:27:43 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: Mike Finch Subject: Stomachs in synch Message:

Hi Mike My pizza delivery just arrived! Not trying to grill you, its just nice to see another presence here I can put a face to - the only other ones being Steve Mulley and John Watson, both hailing from Manchester at some point in time. I only came out of the shadows late last year, before that I had been harbouring doubts for years and they were making me miserable. If nothing else, you'll find this place the only venue available for premies to air their doubts and concepts. Maybe that's why new posters find it a bit confronting - we spent 20+ years not daring to express any negativity about maharaji to our peers, and defending him mindlessly to our family, friends and co-workers. If you can survive the initial running the gauntlet routine, you might even begin to enjoy a new freedom of thought and expression previously denied to you. Barry.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 19:15:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Next Easy Question Message:

In what way Mike? Anth the nice cop

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 18:54:11 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike Finch,a coupla softball questions.... Message:

Hey Mike-I don't know you, but have enjoyed your posts so far, and commend you on your decision to think about some of these things. Here's a couple of simple questions: 1)Do you think there are unresolved issues from the past concerning M and the people who followed him? If so, what are they, in your opinion? Should they be addressed? How would you advise M to handle them in the most honest way? 2)Do you believe any of the scandalous stuff about him(drugs,alcohol,mistress,hit and run etc.)? Should that stuff be addressed, so that new people don't get into 'Knowledge-lite' with no idea of this stuff, only to find out later about it, and be upset with the person who brought them? 3)Do you believe M is engaging in 'historical revisionism'? Again, what would a parent of a 20 year old woman (aspirant) think about a 'master' who used to proclaim that he would 'rule the world' and that he 'removes all sins, when one receives knowledge', but covers those statements up and refuses to talk about them? Is that OK in your book? Just a few, Welcome, La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 14:19:33 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Then, I remember an instance where YOU were on Message:

the hot spot. Do you remember that dinner/party we had in Abidjan with m, after the program was over, about 10 years ago ? I guess I still have some pictures of that night in some drawer.... You were there, with your wife, and m was teasing/abusing you, in front of everybody. He was asking you embarrassing questions, and wanted you to tell some dirty jokes. I was feeling VERY EMBARRASSED for you (and your wife). I was NOT enjoying that party, even though we were in a very enjoyable situation. How were you feeling ? Did you feel m was 'playing' with you that night ? How does it feel being ridicule in front of everybody ? I still feel very bad about that kind of situation. I've been part of quite some of that type. Do you realize the impact that kind of 'game' had on us?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:45:06 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Challenges !! Message:

Mike, I posted here anonymously for quite some time before responding to one of Jim's calls for posters here to show their faces (for a variety of reasons not everyone feels able to do this, of course). You have come here making your first post under your real name. And, unlike myself, you are personally known to other posters here. One thing I would like to add is that you are about to replace a carefully contrived illusion (maya) that Mr Rawat has spun about himself. The trouble with leaving Rawat, is that there is no place to stop. Not until THAT illusion has morphed into an accurate and realistic picture of the man and his methods. Respect. JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:34:16 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: jfagnaux@hotmail.com To: Mike Finch Subject: More Challenges !! Message:

Do you think that the teachings of Maharaji are complete ? Did he ever talk about compassion for others, how to deal with suffering, emotions, depression ? Does he have a method for insight meditation and how to deal with the inconscious ? I had beautifull experiences with les technics and after i had a depression. Why light on one side and intense suffering on the other side ? Is it not dangerous to deal only with one side of our mind ? Why do you thing that with buddhist meditation, i cure the suffering and i have also the good aspects that i had with the technics of Maharaji and and i don’t need to devote myself to anybody ? Why some people made therapy and got cured from their mental suffering and never got cured while they were premies and receveid the knowledge of all knowledges ? Maharaji speaks about the heart all the time. What about the connection with other people which is a law of nature. What about the message and the menaing of love for others ? Why does he claim that he has the exclusivity of knowledge ? He proclaims himself The master. More than 30 people say that they are also unique master and show the same technics. What do you think about that ? Do you think Maharaji has a special power ? He says he reveals the light, he shows god, he is the filament. Do you think it is true ? My girlfriend sees light inside most of the time and is very happy. She never receives knowledge and never learn how to meditate and never got in contact with any spiritual group. Why does she see light if it is only the gift of the master ? Here are some questions. I have 5000 more but i keep for later (joking).

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:13:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Paul Subject: You know, that's a DAMN good question! Message:

Maharaji speaks about the heart all the time. What about the connection with other people which is a law of nature. What about the message and the menaing of love for others ? Setting aside knee-jerk hippie cliches about 'peace, love and understanding' it's so true that we are a social animal, we've evolved that way and all that. When has the Hamster ever acknowledged that? He stripped away the only juicy (if compltely misguided) social contact premies had when he stopped satsang. When and where has he ever acknowledged this human dimension? Good question.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 11:22:47 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: None To: Jim Subject: You know, that's a DAMN good question! Message:

M criticizes everybody, he is not aware that people are living. His perception of reality is paranoid. When you are not in his boat, you are lost. So why care about the people who are lost? They have a chance to recognize the master and they don't take it. The love that he talks about sounds very strange to me. People who are glued to that belief have the conviction that they are saved. That is completely ouf of common sense. Human level, he never talks about it. Social contact, mutual help, understanding of each other, interest in other people, all the richness of human interconnections, love and hate and reconciliation, all the feelings, difficulties and basic questions, did you ever hear him talking about that? Or maybe i was in my mind and did not catch the message!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 17:23:33 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: He is a man without conscience Message:

I don't know if sociopaths are born or made. Maybe a bit of both - but probably more the latter than the former, I would imagine. But, I have no doubt, if Rawat underwent psychological assessment, he would be found lacking in his ability to consider other people. Rawat = Chief Minister in The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 01, 2001 at 13:25:41 (GMT) From: Jean-Paul Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mountains of chalanges Message:

Mike, Don’t feel obliged to respond to my questions. They are just material for reflection if you want. There is nothing sacred. Jean-Paul

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