Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 01:23:32 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: cq Subject: My response...from a thread below Message:

'The meditation isn't the main issue' say some exes (though some do criticise it as well as the Maha) 'it's the teacher - who portrays himself as being as important as the meditation.' (if not more so). There are two pieces to the meditation puzzle. One is the techniques, and the other is, for lack of a better word, the thrust. The barrier between you and your existence is vast, though the experience often does appear to be closer than it really is. You know what I mean? You get to the threshold and getting ready to cross and you say, “Well that was easy, why don’t I think about this”. And you are catapulted like a rubber band right back into your thought-stream before you even know it. And it seems the closer you get to stepping across that threshold the more taut the rubber band becomes. So sure, anyone can now pull the techniques off the web thanks to the efforts of you guys. But what provides the thrust? For that the Master teaches a few tricks that work. It has to do with learning to surrender. Now, now...I can hear the collective moan from here. No really, surrender is critical to the process! But surrender to what? In one way it doesn’t matter...but it has to be real. I know from experience you just have to surrender to get across that threshold. Without it there is just not enough thrust. And I will be so presumtuous to add, if you think you have crossed it without surrender, you are no doubt kidding yourself. There you have it folks. The word on why the Master is important to the experience of meditation.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:58:09 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: mir Subject: Sounds like... Message:

Mir wrote: I know from experience you just have to surrender to get across that threshold. Without it there is just not enough thrust. And I will be so presumtuous to add, if you think you have crossed it without surrender, you are no doubt kidding yourself. There you have it folks. The word on why the Master is important to the experience of meditation. Sounds like you've been hypnotised Mir: 'By being subjected to special kinds of treatment a man can be brought to a particular state, called the hypnotic state. Although there exists a school which asserts that any man can be hypnotised at any time, facts tell against this. In order to be hypnotised, to fall into a nypnotic state, a man must be perfectly passive, i.e. know that he is being hypnotised and not resist it.' That's from Ouspensky, but I'm sure someone else around here has looked into the possibility of hypnosis with regards to m's 'power'. 'Perfectly passive' and not resisting sound like surrender to me. What do you think mir?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 17:04:29 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: My response...from a thread below Message:

The barrier between you and your existence is vast, though the experience often does appear to be closer than it really is. You know what I mean? No, I don't know what you mean. My existence is right here, right now. Why would you think your's is somewhere else? That's just a concept you picked up from Maharaji. I really hope you wake up and free yourself from M, someday, mir. I can't help but think you'd be much better off. I really, really, believe that. It's just a matter of you snapping out of it and having the guts to walk. Good luck.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:26:49 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Thanks for your hopes and concerns Jer but... Message:

Why would I walk away from something that works? If it didn't work for you, you are right to walk away. If it ever stops working for me, I will walk away. But after 25 years of going through the full spectrum of highs and lows, comings and goings, and beliefs and doubts, it just keeps going, going, going. If you really care, instead of wishing me to walk away, why not wish for my sincerest happiness...and I'll do the same for you.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:02:18 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: mir Subject: Thanks for your hopes and concerns but... Message:

Mir, You say: 'Why would I walk away from something that works?' Why do you persist in equating walking away from M with walking away from meditation? It still works without him. If anything, it's easier to go into the experience without any kind of belief structure. I have a feeling that, one day, you'll find your sincerest happiness. And it won't be dependant on any teacher of meditation. In fact, your attachment to the guru might just be the very thing that's holding you back from finding your true freedom. Is it the 25 year's investment of time, energy and belief that holds you? Like, to admit that you've wasted energy on merely boosting M's massive ego-trip for all these years would be too much to handle? Feel free to open up on this. (You're less likely to get flamed for being honest and vulnerable)

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 02:30:53 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: How does it work, please, tewll me? (nt? Message:

mn

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:37:46 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: Well, have some more Message:

Mir, I guess if Maharaji was helping you to find your own strength, I would accept that he 'works' for you. But he's made you completely dependent on him. To me, that doesn't work. He's like a father who never wants to see his baby take his first steps, but would rather that he crawls all his life. When has Maharaji ever given you the slightest indication that you can make it without him? He dreads that you would ever think that way. Well, Mir, I'd like to believe that you CAN make it without him. If you don't think so, that's your hangup. You've been around this forum long enough to know that plenty of people are doing just fine without him. Why not you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 00:50:04 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Well, have some more Message:

Give it up man!! You're worse than these Christian groups who have to proove everybody else in the world wrong to proove to themselves that they're right. You just aren't wise enough, smart enough, astute enough, or omniscient enough to know what does or what does not work for me. Hey listen, I don't care at all if you guys get along fine without Knowledge. For me to assume I know what's best for you would be incredibly arrogant of me. Go! Enjoy your life...I mean it. But get off this kick you've gotta prove me wrong in order to be right. It's tiresome.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:37:06 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: Well, have some more Message:

I'm just saying you've made an idol of M for you to worship and rely on. That's all. That's how I see it. I think I'm right. And that's how I'm going to say it. Sorry if you don't like it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:52:28 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Well, have some more Message:

You can say you might have made him an idol. But you can't say I have done so. You can say there is the potential to make him a figurehead like any other religious icon, such as the Pope, the Aytollah, the Aga Khan, the Dalia Lama, et al. But you can't say that is what he is to me. As I said, you're just not that smart. Neither am I to know what he was for you. So I take you at your word.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:03:36 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: Well, have some more Message:

Mir, It's almost impossible NOT to make Maharaji into an idol when you consider all the idolatrise (I hope that's a word, but you know what I mean), talk about him, which he especially uses. Haven't you read any of the quotes, by Maharji, posted regularly on this forum? How can you go forward as his student, after he's said all these things about himself, without making him into an idol? I say it's impossible.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 14:49:24 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: mir Subject: The Illusion of surrendered control Message:

Mir, That was no explanation at all. As a premie I would use the word 'surrender' in the sense you are using it. But no longer (I am relieved to say). An armchair interest in neuro- or social psychology is all one needs to start questioning the concept. In my case active research into 'altered states' has left me convinced beyond doubt that no matter how powerful or overwhelming your experiences the 'thrust' you speak of has no external source. Merely that by subtle, largely unconscious processes your mind and brain have a capacity for generating a 'surrendered' state - and will respond to whichever outside stimulus has become associated with those sensations via processes involving acquired beliefs and conditioning. The nervous system ('heart' included) provides the feel-good factor while the mind supplies both the 'thrust' and the religious spin. You should ask yourself two questions: can you put your hand on hypothetical heart and say that (a) your state of 'surrender' is qualitatively or quantitatively different from the 'surrendered' states reported by people who claim no privileged Knowledge, who acknowledge no God and follow no master? Or that (b) your experiences of the 'eternal' do not arise from the unconscious auto-stimulation of neural reward systems? Some time ago I posted the following to the forum: > A few years ago the psychologist Susan Blackmore suggested a framework for investigating classes of paranormal experience which, she argued, were no more than normal experiences, albeit interpreted as paranormal. ('Illusions of causality'.) She identified five types of illusion: illusions of memory; illusions of form; illusions of connectness; illusions of pattern and randomness and the illusion of control. (I'll spare you the full details of the first four, though I will happily provide these via email to anyone interested.) 'The illusion of control' describes a person's perceived internal control over external phenomena where personal control is limited or impossible. In one of several studies demonstrating this effect, office workers were sold lottery tickets in two experimental conditions: in one they chose their own ticket, in the other they had the ticket allocated to them. It was found that in the 'choice' condition, people were significantly less willing to resell the ticket - the implication here being that the act of choosing was felt by the purchaser to improve the chances of winning. Paranormal believers are more prone to this illusion than non-believers. Susan Blackmore ran an experiment using a computerised coin-tossing game, designed such that the outcome of a series of coin-flips was sometimes - unknown to the player - in their control, and sometimes beyond their control. Believers had a more pronounced tendency to feel they were in control of purely random outcomes. You don't have to be a paranormal believer to experience this illusion. Whenever I watch a televised football match involving the world's mightiest football team (MUFC), I am very reluctant to leave the room to go fetch a celebratory vintage from the cellar - not because I might miss something, but because I always have this feeling that without my own personal willpower psyching things along and generally keeping the ball in the opponents' half of the field, the lads might fall apart and start letting the goals in... Blackmore's five categories between them provide alternative explanations for every reported paranormal effect - except she has left one out: The Illusion of Surrendered Control. This is the direct inverse of the Illusion of Control. The believer experiences the outcomes of their own actions as being the work of a mysterious external force or higher power. If you have ever taken part in a seance where messages seemed to come through, you might know how compelling is the effect. Although the assembled parties are collectively responsible for moving the wine glass around the table, even selecting letters to spell out words, each feels they are merely following the glass rather than pushing it. Or take the popularity of pendulums among dowsers and other new-age practitioners. Notice how the weight is always small and the thread is short enabling dramatic movements in the weight to occur through a twitch of a finger. Not only will the witness be impressed but the practitioner is also persuaded there is an outside force at work. In the classic hypnotic setting, 'susceptible' people act out the role of surrendering their willpower to the hypnotist. There is no good evidence that the hypnotic subject at any point loses personal volition - though many clearly believe this to be the case simply through their imagining this to be the case. The illusion of surrendered control again. Does any of this ring any bells? Remember the oft-repeated message: 'Surrender to that Grace' - usually combined with 'Just make that effort..!’ I don't think it is an exaggeration to say that every one of the once-Living Perfect Master's satsangs from the super-devotional, late seventies period included both injunctions repeated several times in various forms of words. You make the effort to surrender; the Guru supplies the experience. Take one step towards Guru Maharaj Ji, and Guru Maharaj Ji will take a hundred steps in your direction... In many ways, this was (is?) the central, absurd paradoxical law of the cult: you do the work, the guru delivers the goods and gets the credit. If the goods fail to appear, however, it is your fault for not doing enough work (and the guru is blameless). Maharaji’s kind of meditation is an illusion of surrendered control. Not in the sense that your experience is illusory, but in the sense of your being transported somewhere - Maharaji's World probably - by an external power. (Ok, the 'Knowledge' experience is said to be 'internal', but what I mean here is external to your control). For me, this is precisely analogous to the susceptible hypnotic subject who does for him- or herself everything necessary to achieve the sensation of automatism, then attributes the experience to the power of the hypnotist. As a premie – and long before you may even become a premie - you have learned off by heart that (a) you must focus on the techniques, and (b) the experience is not elicited by those techniques, but is a gift of Grace. But at a more damaging level, the illusion of surrendered control occurs in all areas of cult involvement, as well as everyday life. You can't afford the fare to travel to a festival, so you take your remaining furniture to an auction. By His Grace, someone buys it just in time for you to purchase a ticket. Wow, I mean, that is so amazing... I just took that step and… Thank you, Lord. (Pranam, grovel.) This last example is a little different from the misinterpretation of inner experiences – but involves the same ‘I am surrendered’ cult-logic and perception. In most cases, I think the illusion of surrendered control occurs in situations where we have only limited control of our nervous systems. We cannot, for example, make ourselves hiccup or belch but we can engineer circumstances to increase the probability of those events happening (by, say, opening a few bottles of the aforementioned special vintage…) Practising the Knowledge techniques does not guarantee that we will see light, hear music etc., but increases the likelihood of their occurring. Under such conditions we are most easily persuaded that our experiences are not of our own making. Likewise your day trips to eternity, Mir.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:41:03 (GMT) From: archive Email: None To: Nigel Subject: The Illusion of surrendered control Message:

good one Nigel bburke@rocketmail.com

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:51:50 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: Delete maha from meditation Message:

Hi Mir, You've prompted a response on this surrender stuff. My wife has been an ex premie for many years. However she has done a great deal of meditation since leaving. She has in fact taught others (without charge) to meditate using her own adaptations of various techniques. She is able to give much more concise guidance and clear explanations of the processes of surrender in meditation than Maha or any of his so called instructors. There is a surrender factor involved. This is in fact the biggest difference between meditation being a physiological relaxation or a discovery of the centre of consciousness. However where we became confused and indeed limited as premies was in the concept that surrender was to the gooroo. The real surrender is to a higher aspect of our own consciousness whatever we label it.I assure you that this surrender (I prefer to call it trusting or letting go), is nothing to do with Rawat. That's the big lie. To really discover the true centre of oneself it's necessary to let go of the middleman and realise that it is only you in there. Surely it's much easier to trust yourself than some guy you don't really know? All ideas of M's greatness are fabrications of your own mind.How come the great majority of premies have never achieved any wonderful realisations in meditation? Have you ever considered that the guru is the last barrier to cross? It's attachment to external authority which needs to be surrendered,not one's own discrimination . SO THERE YOU HAVE IT FOLKS; THE MASTER HAS NO IMPORTANCE IN THE EXPERIENCE OF MEDITATION: Maybe one day you'll stop practicing and get down to the real thing.Doesn't the term 'practicing ' seem like M's saying that you'll never achieve anything? You'll always be only practicing. Practicing for what? I thought this was real life not a dress rehearsal. Hal the Ronin. (ronin were masterless warriors )

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 18:18:15 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Hal Subject: No thanks Message:

My wife has been an ex premie for many years. However she has done a great deal of meditation since leaving. She has in fact taught others (without charge) to meditate using her own adaptations of various techniques. She is able to give much more concise guidance and clear explanations of the processes of surrender in meditation than Maha or any of his so called instructors. I don’t want to minimise anything your wife is doing Hal but I think a reality check is appropriate here. Maharaji has been teaching hundreds of thousands “without charge” for 34 years. During this time he has travelled almost full time with the goal of teaching as many people as possible. Not having had the benefit of your wife’s instruction I can’t compare it with I’ve received. I CAN say that from my perspective the instruction I receive from Maharaji has been excellent. The proof is in the experience. If you yourself are not happy with it, that’s fine. Maybe you can get your wife to instruct you on the fine art of surrender...in case she hasn’t already done so. By the way, how many of your wife’s students are still practising her techniques after 25 years? Does she travel to see them regularly to make sure they're doing ok? There is a surrender factor involved. This is in fact the biggest difference between meditation being a physiological relaxation or a discovery of the centre of consciousness. Surrender is not just a factor Hal...it is essential to having an experience. And if one were to you say it’s easy to achieve, it would expose their inexperience in the matter of surrender. However where we became confused and indeed limited as premies was in the concept that surrender was to the gooroo. The real surrender is to a higher aspect of our own consciousness whatever we label it. I agree. But how do get there from here? Surely it's much easier to trust yourself than some guy you don't really know? Well, Hal let me see...Is it much easier to trust yourself than some guy you don’t really know? I think I would have to say that for many that is not the case. It definitely should be the case but I think it is more rare than you would like to admit that someone really trusts themself, particularly in the area of self-knowledge. (As an aside, I believe if you were honest with yourself Hal you would see that you owe more to Maharaji than you admit for having achieved the degree of trust in yourself that you have. But that’s just my theory.) So where you gonna go to learn surrender? Well, it’s got to be from someone you trust, no question about it. It’s got to be from someone who has the inclination to teach you until your dying day, because it can never stop. And it has to be someone whose standards are such that they won’t compromise the lessons of surrender to the wishes of the ego. Tall order! All ideas of M's greatness are fabrications of your own mind.How come the great majority of premies have never achieved any wonderful realisations in meditation? As I said, surrender is no small task. How many premies committed to learning just THAT? Yes, we moved into the ashram, pursued a position in the organisation, practised the techniques religiously, did all the right things...things that are not very difficult to achieve in the scheme of things. But how many really zeroed in on learning about the fine art of surrender. Because without it, all you have are a bunch of pretty unexciting techniques taught by some guy who just ends up pushing your buttons. Have you ever considered that the guru is the last barrier to cross? It's attachment to external authority which needs to be surrendered,not one's own discrimination . All depends what you want Hal. You are the master of that topic, ie; what you want. It’s good that you are taking back control in that area...control that you mistakenly handed over to someone else at some point. And when you have that control back, if you ever again choose to commit to tapping into the regions beyond the threshold, you may make the decision to pursue it in a more self-directed way. All the best Hal.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 04:41:49 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: mir Subject: surrender Message:

mir, No one can teach you to surrender, or let go. Could someone teach you to jump off a cliff? Can anyone teach you how to go to sleep, or die correctly? In the end there is only you and your fear to deal with. There will be no form , only your own infinite potential to merge with. Nothing to do with worshipping a finite human being whatsoever. But don't trust me on that, trust yourself. All the best Hal.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:32:09 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: No thanks Message:

I don’t want to minimise anything your wife is doing Hal but I think a reality check is appropriate here. Maharaji has been teaching hundreds of thousands “without charge” for 34 years. I think you're the one who needs a reality check, Mir. Did M teach you to meditate, or was it one of his trusted mahatmas, who he may have fired down the road because he didn't like the job he was doing? These days, I hear M teaches hundreds, thousands of people to meditate at the same time. What does he do? He instructs them in some techniques, and sends them on their merry way. Then, after that, they get to watch videos where he doesn't even talk about meditation. So what kind of meditation teacher are we talking about, here, Mir? A lousy one, I think.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 01:58:47 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Jerry Subject: No thanks Message:

Jerry, we diagree. You do nothing but look for ways to explain everything M does in negative terms. In my opinion that demonstrates a high degree of narrow-mindedness and bias. I'm sure if he gave you the world you'd find some reason why it wasn't good enough just so you could carry on believing you are right. So before I blow my cool dealing with such narrow-mindedness why don't we just leave it at that, deal? We disagree. Enjoy your life.

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 03:07:34 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: mir Subject: No thanks Message:

You do nothing but look for ways to explain everything M does in negative terms. Wrong. I look for the truth about him. If that happens to be negative, that's just the way it is.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:04:28 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Hal and Mir Subject: To Hal and Mir Message:

Hal, Your post 'delete maha...' above, is one of my personal all-time favorites of this site. Thank you. Even Mirror is forced to agree with you to a large extent. Mir claims that Maharaji and Knowledge have brought him to the threshold of the region of true consciousness. And he seems to be waiting for some 'thrust' from his master to break through the final barrier. Hey Mir, if you need some kick in the butt from Rawat to become a man, then go ahead - be his student your whole lifetime, 'until your dying day,' as you say above. And do remember him on your deathbed, just as he wants you to. Go ahead. But don't expect us to. We don't want to hold his hand, living or dying. We've washed our hands of him. For good. Understand?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 20:32:21 (GMT) From: mir Email: None To: Way Subject: To WAY Message:

Ah...how quickly my words get misinterpreted. Ok, if you want to be the winner, call me something less than a man and by all means tell us all what a fine example of manhood you yourself are. Hey, feel good at my expense if it gets you through the night. But do try not to misinterpret me...please. I never said I was helplessly waiting for anything. Maharaji has already supplied the means to cross this threshold...as if you know what I'm talking about. I know it sounds real macho and all when you stand up like you did and claim to be such a self-made man, but I have no qualms about seeking help from someone else when I need it. And I'll bet if you knew me you wouldn't have cause to call me challenged in my manhood in any way because of it. Wonder if I could say the same about you?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 21:07:16 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: mir Subject: Back to Mir Message:

Mir, Well, as far as comparing our machoness, I think I will have to concede to your superiority, sight unseen. (Read my journey). I do not think I am misinterpreting your words. You say clearly that in order to surrender, we need some external teacher who is willing to teach us until our dying day. If that doesn't smack of life-long servitude and depending on somebody else's strength, then maybe I am misinterpreting you. Give me a little credit in knowing what you are talking about when you attempt some expression about the threshold, surrender, and the inner experience. Although many ex-premies here have abandoned those concepts, I am one of the many others who continue to pursue the silence within. And I very much appreciated your description of 'wiping the slate clean.' (That was you, wasn't it?) Speaking of ministerpreting, surely you know by 'man' I wasn't refering in anyway to the physical. Maharaji himself once defined a man in this way: 'No humility, not a man.' I concur with that, but that brings us back to the point of this thread. Humility to who? It is a great error to humble ourselves before another man who remains a separateness to our own self and always will be. If we're talking about learning the guitar, then humble yourself before the guitar teacher until you've mastered the subject. But when we're talking about life, surrender to the one who gave you life. Was it Rawat? Come on, Mir, open your eyes.

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 22:42:49 (GMT) From: mirror Email: None To: Way Subject: And back to Way Message:

The guitar teacher didn't give you the guitar either. On the topic of mastering life, what makes you think it can be mastered in the same kind of timeframe that you master an instrument?If your guitar teacher was always learning and a step or two ahead of you wouldn't you want a lifelong affiliation?

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Date: Sat, Mar 11, 2000 at 17:09:55 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: mirror Subject: Simple question for Mir Message:

Simple question for Mir: Mir, would you say you were 'attached' to the Maha?

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Date: Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 02:12:17 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: mir Subject: YUCK!!!! nt ROFL Message:

NT

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 22:43:51 (GMT) From: Mu Email: None To: cq Subject: Mirror mirror in the wall who's the easiest of all Message:

Mir is of course. He has never seen the devastation that maha has caused. He is too involved with gazing at his own distorted image! HAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO! Peace - Mu

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:11:19 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: cq Subject: Absolutely,superb post. Many thanks. (nt) Message:

q

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