Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:25:45 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek Message:

Hi Mickey, I'd like to tap your knowledge of the Christian texts here regarding what Jesus said about 'turning the other cheek' and 'love your enemies'. What, in your opinion, did Jesus actually say regarding how we should deal with those who would do us harm? Should we accept them completely? How should we act? (or not act?) Ignore their actions or take decisive steps? I've long been interested in this theme. I know I knuckled under and took a lot of shit as a kid. As I grew older I learned to fight for my rights, sometimes with a great deal of personal anger. These days I sit with considerations and meditations of Buddhist teachings on these themes. I no longer see anger as 'good'. The teachings as I hear them are that anger is always harmful. It seems we can transform this energy we call anger into effective ways. I tend to see the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, and Martin Luther King as models of appropriate action or non-action, at least regarding how I might act on a 'society at large' basis. Interesting to me also is how this all translates into more personal themes, like how I would regard those who seek to hurt me personally. Again, what in your opinion, did Jesus have to say about this? And, if interested in responding, how do these teachings work in your own life. Please email me privately if you would rather. My email is listed above.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 12:15:57 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Bobby Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek Message:

Bobby, 'What Jesus meant' is not just another subject like physics or astronomy, requiring the need to consult a scholar, with all due respect to Mickey and his studies. Remember, the lowly illiterate Samaritan knew 'what Jesus meant' when he helped the injured traveler who was laying at the side of the road, when the priest and others in Jesus' parable had passed the poor soul by. It doesn't take booklearning to know, it's takes the presence of the Holy Spirit and love. Having said that, to 'turn the other cheek' means to me that if someone has a bad reaction to a side of your personality, then show them another side that will better relate to the situation at hand. It definitely does not mean to be a doormat or punching bag. So many 'religious people' think that Jesus was a wimp who said never to get pissed, but Mickey and I agree that this is not the case. Furthermore, St. Paul said that if someone approaches speaking like a beast, to respond in kind, just to let the person know that you can relate on that level too. Paul's 'be all things to all men' and Jesus' 'turn the other cheek' are verty similar in general meaning, as I read it: In other words, Be relatable. In the spirit of a Forum, shp

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:20:22 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Bobby Subject: A long response Message:

Hi Bobby, I am happy to answer your questions. I hope that you are doing well. Now, it’s taken me a while to answer because it’s Sunday, my busy day. I had two church services this morning and then a program to honor Tercer Edad (Senior Citizens) this afternoon, so I haven’t been home much today. The texts to which you refer are from the Gospel according to Matthew (Mat. 5:38-45a) and the Gospel according to Luke (Luke 6:29-31). The translation I will be using is the Scholars Version Translation, which is a very accurate translation in modern English; it is the translation found in “The Five Gospels” the book published by the Jesus Seminar, a group of scholars who have been trying to figure out what Jesus actually said and what was part of the tradition or worshipping community for whom a particular gospel was written. The texts: Matthew 5:38-45a “As you know, we once were told, ‘An eye for an eye’ and ‘A tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you: {Don’t react violently against the one who is evil: when someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other as well. When someone wants to sue you for your shirt, let that person have your coat along with it. Further, when anyone conscripts you for one mile, go an extra mile. Give to the one who begs from you;} and don’t turn away the one who tries to borrow from you. As you know, we once were told, ‘You are to love your neighbor’ and ‘You are to hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: {Love you enemies} and pray for your persecutors. You’ll then become children of your Father in the heavens.” Luke 6:29-31 “{When someone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other as well. When someone takes away your coat, don’t prevent that person from taking your shirt along with it. Give to everyone who begs from you}, and when someone takes your things, don’t ask for them back. Treat people the way you want them to treat you.” Most scholars believe that the authors of Matthew and Luke used the Gospel according to Mark and another source, which scholars call “Q” from the German “quelle” or source. The texts quoted above are from Q; they don’t appear in Mark. These sayings are in a thesis, anti-thesis form, where Jesus says, “You have heard ...., but I say to you .....” Jesus is replacing Torah with his teachings. Jesus is calling people to do something which goes against their nature, and he exaggerates what should be done to make a point. He only talks about getting smacked in the right cheek; nothing is said about any other kinds of blows, and if one was to give their coat and shirt, all they would have left is their trousers, so that seems kind of silly. I think that what is being said is that those who follow Jesus are not to draw their behavior patterns from those who victimize them, but respond to others as they want to be treated. A person’s behavior towards others is to be the reflection of the treatment they want to receive. Most of this is considered authentic by the Jesus Seminar (I have put the phrases which the Jesus Seminar believes are authentic in brackets; I’m not clever enough to know how to post them in color). I think that Jesus is calling people to non-violence in these texts, but I don’t think that he is saying that one should never be angry or fight for what is right; according to the gospel texts, Jesus was angry when he chased the vendors out of the Temple, and he preached about freeing the prisoner and ending the oppression of the rich over the poor, so I don’t think he advocated just taking a bunch of crap, but he did speak out against violence in this text. I’m non-violent due more to the influence of Gandhi, not so much because of this text, but I do give to those who ask me for money; I try to live according to the teachings in this text, although I don’t always succeed. I hope this answers your question. Paz, Padre Michael

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:42:34 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: That makes sense. On the other hand... Message:

Re: He only talks about getting smacked in the right cheek; nothing is said about any other kinds of blows, and if one was to give their coat and shirt, all they would have left is their trousers, so that seems kind of silly. if you started taking off your trousers as soon as the guy grabbed your coat it just wouldn't be proper. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:59:57 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: A long response Message:

T'ank ya faddah! That's really beautiful. I really agree strongly with those views according to Christian text and do try to practice them in my Buddhist way. Amazing to me that the Buddhist teachings of 'giving and taking' and '7 point mind training' are really essentially the same as what Jesus said in what you related above. In these teachings Buddhism also lays out specific practices for sending out love and taking on suffering. They are awesome for me and they work. The Dalai Lama has stated 'my religion is kindness' and my Buddhist teacher has taught that all the Tibetan complexities boil down to 'being a kind person', essentially the deconstruction of our negative emotions. I too appreciate strength of character, speaking up and 'doing the right thing' in very active ways. Strong to me does not equal angry. I think I used to think that. I'm learning the ways of non-harmfulness. I've been angry a lot in my life and I've worked to transform it. I think perhaps the question of anger is largely semantic. Anger in a destructive sense is very wrong according to Buddhism. However, to make a strong and compelling stand can be good, but when we lose awareness and hurt others or become enraged we damage ourselves and others. I think Gandhi certainly made a 'strong and compelling stand'. Do you agree? One other statement of Jesus if I may. Jesus said I'm almost sure, 'be ye wise as serpents and as harmless as doves'. What is he saying here? I've thought of this statement as meaning one should exercise discrimination in dealing with others, not let others get over on ya. At the same time, one should practice non-harmfulness. Is this a correct understanding of this phrase? Are there any other scriptural statements that cover discrimination and non-harmfulness? Thanks Michael! I'm doing very well and am very happy. I want you to know that I've really appreciated your kindness and prayers. They helped a lot. Hope you are well and happy too. Keep up the good work. Bobby

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:42:42 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com To: Bobby Subject: Another response Message:

I agree, Bobby, there are some similarities between the Buddhist and some Christian understandings of mindfulness and compassion (I say some Christian understandings because, as you are aware, there are many different denominations and theologies in Xistianity, just as there are in Buddhism). I'm not a Universalist, and I get offended when people try to dilute teachings and make them all one big beautiful love-fest, and I don't buy the Perfect Master thang either, but I do see similarities in some Buddhist and Xian teachings. As for the 'wise as serpents, harmless as doves' quote (Matt. 10:16), the first part of the verse reads 'I am sending you out like sheep to a pack of wolves.' The wise as serpents thing may have been a wise saying which was common to that time. There is a lot of stuff that is imagery we, in a 21st century, North American context, will have trouble understanding. It may have been a humorous saying, a paradox, but I'm not sure. I like your reading, because we do need to use discrimination in our dealings with those who are hostile, but if we follow non-violence, we can't do physical or emotional violence to such people. I want to be kind, but some times I fail. Perhaps we should continue any more discussion along these lines by email. Great to see you around again and doing so well.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:58:50 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Another response Message:

Hi Mickey Enjoyed your posts as always. A word about Universalists, if I may. Having been brought up Unitarian-Universalist, I don't think the teachings of different religions were diluted into one big love fest. Rather the goal was to increase understanding of the similarities *and* differences in different religions and to find common ground. Religious UUs do believe in one God, a God for all of us. However, they do not naively think that all religions are the same. There is just as much emphasis on scholarship, for example, for a UU minister to be ordained, as there is in any other denomination. I consider myself a universalist so I thought I had better stick up for my religion here and not let this go by! I didn't know exactly what you were implying here but I thought I would speak up.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 11:14:47 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Helen Subject: Another response Message:

Hi Helen. Maybe I should have used a different term; I wasn't referring to UUs, I meant universalists (lower case u) who want to believe that all religions are the same (well, there are those here who believe that all religion is superstition, so they would be the same in that respect). I am thinking of the baloney we all heard in DLM, the Past Perfect Master story in which all religions have eye-ball squeezing at the core and then drifted off-course. I am aware of the scholarship required of UU ministers; Star King School for Ministry is part of the Graduate Theological Union, of which my seminary is a member, and we were able to take classes there. They didn't really offer anything in my areas interest; their classes tended to be a bit more 'touchy feely' than I wanted. I apologize if I offended your UU heritage :) I hope you and your husband are well.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 20:57:25 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Another response Message:

Michael: Hard to imagine that he's not referring to the Genesis story, where Satan appears as an accomplished debator in the form of a Serpent. The Serpent is also an image that comes from Asia, where the dragon was regarded as both wise and good. There's also a Christian tradition regarding the 'Worm of God,' but I'm not sure what it's origins are; perhaps the same Asian 'good' Serpent, or Dragon. It probably means, be clever enough to not be caught by the guile or ill-design of another. Be true to the design of God. Be a 'better' serpent than Satan, etc. Purely a guess though. It could mean, 'Don't take your pants off if someone grabs your coat.' --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:02:50 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: You made me laugh, again!!! Thanks Message:

I need a laugh! Seriously though...if you take off your pants you can really turn another cheek!

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:09:00 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Carol Subject: You made me laugh, again!!! Thanks Message:

Hi Carol! Good to read you again. the weather was perfect and it was just a total blast. Of course I remember you, how could you think I might not? I can qoute some of your old posts I think. Also, I HAVE some of them printed out. They are great.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:34:37 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: bill Subject: Wow, gee, shucks, thanks! Message:

I didn't know I made such an impression. Thanks for telling me. Seeing my new grand daughter was special. I picked up my first grand daughter, who is 7 and drove her to visit her dad and new sister. It was fun, but I also heard the baby cry many times in the night, missed a dose of St. John's Wort and got pretty exhausted talking and driving to and from the place, about 130 miles each way. Today I needed to recuperate and felt tired and low. I should have spent time outdoors but instead was on the net too much! And here I am again. Off to bed soon....Goodnight

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:06:46 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Bobby Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek Message:

Bobby, Please,excuse me for intruding on what seems to be a personal query to Mickey...but, I also ponder Jesus and his words. I have had a recent dealing with a 77 yr old neighbor that was very mean with her words to me bec I wanted to simply build a privacy fence on a portion of our adjoining property. My take is ---Jesus was telling us to see our neighbor as ourselves .... and to judge not... and to forgive those as our Father in Heaven forgives us.....I must do to my neighbor what is done to me ...and that is --- I am understood and my motivations are understood and thus,I am forgiven in Heaven bec, I am a stupid,growing person that makes a miriad of mistakes as I grovel my way to perfection. I have to forgive my neighbor as the groveling,full-of mistakes person that she is and that is the only thing to it. My two cents.... and of course,don't forget - we are all one and this is all a dance ( Lila)... Love, Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:21:13 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bobby Subject: experiencing mortality Message:

Hi Bobby You and I do not share a lot of the same ideas but I do know that being close to death changes things a LOT. In this case it being my mother's death a very short time ago. Since then I have been goofing around on here posting. I needed to distract myself. I noticed at work I was VERY uncomfortable with the hugs and sympathies co-workers gave me. I realized something about myself. That being, I can go on and on about my emotional issues when they are not all that heavy but when a real big one comes along I feel very private and personal. It's almost as though our bodies and minds go into survival mode and there is not a lot of extra energy available. I know you wanted a Christian perspective in your original post to Michael. And I am NOT religious. But I have been going through a lot and something that I feel about turning the other cheek, etc: I cannot generalized or follow a pat formula or credo. There is a time to defend oneself and a time to fight. And there are other times to walk away. In the extreme case of physical attack for example. I couldn't fight for shit when I was in my teens and I got attacked twice, beat up really bad. both times someone came by before I was injured beyond repair, killed perhaps. That outside help and intervention seems to be a pattern in my life. One defense I learned was I can pretty much spot someone who is violent right away ( I hope!! ) from both my childhood and from those 2 atttacks. I finally got it through my thick head to avoid the obvious wackos. ( at least In Real Life :) It will be interesting to hear Michaels views on this but I think all situations are different. And also, in the lesser extremem cases of attack such as being flamed here, etc. I do know that the better I feel about myself the less those things hurt.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:12:09 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Selene Subject: experiencing mortality Message:

I know what you mean. I had to go to the emergency room for my mother last Thursday. It seemed more serious than it was....but it could be anytime. The night before, my 2nd grand daughter was born. She is beautiful. I just got back from visiting (two hours drive away. But I am feeling a bit low now and here I am, relishing the little laugh I got from Scott's posts! I also notice that I go in a cave more with the people I know in real life when I get depressed, but I come here or to email contacts when I get feeling low. Maybe it is because I don't feel the ebergy to really *do* something else. But it also lets me get it out and sometimes the responses I get really help me. Love, carol

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Selene and all Subject: experiencing mortality Message:

When the closest person to me passed away and I cried for three solid months... a friend said on the surface an 'odd' thing to me. Later, of course, I saw the wisdom in his words. As I was crying,he said,'She gave you the greatest gift.' Well, later,Icertainly knew the wisdom of his words. Because of my endless tears I reached such inner depths and was given one of the most exceptional divine experiences bec of 'grace' or just bec my tears changed my brain chemistry or whatever. This may soundalso an odd post. But, for what it's worth it meant alot to me when he shared that sentence. He was very wise and brave to say such a thing to a sobbing friend. Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 20:34:52 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Bobby and mickey, et al Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek Message:

i too took an awful lot of abuse fom a very young age, for the sake of trying to be like Christ as his ways had been taught to me. and ours was not a religious family. but i didnt really know if Christ had existed until i stood by my alcoholic mother's deathbed in ICU, and asked that if Jesus were real, i wished he would come and help her cross over. I was therefore thoroughly amazed when the ICU walls dissolved into vibrant light, and i felt someone walk into the room from behind me, and i was in a tight corner, ass against the wall! what i saw was a full appearance of Jesus himself, as real as you or me, and he came round to the other side of her bed, facing me, over her comatose body, and he spoke telepathically with me for some long minutes. i was awed and agape. when he departed, i had a new understanding about him and how he is, but i was afraid to call on it for another 15 years-- partly cos i didnt want to bother him with trivial stuff, and partly cos i knew i was falling short of how i understood him to mean us to live. I had Knowledge about 3 years at that point. its a long tale, and i can tell it another time--but i can tell you this: I read the Urantia book, after that, and the Course in Miracles, and the entire Conversations with God 4some, but the best book I have gotten, so far, that makes him easy to comprehend, is a paperback by an oil painter he appeared to, so she could paint him. he came to her, as he came to me in my mothers room, on request--visible and substantial, and literally sat in her studio in sessions, while she painted her work of him--and while she painted, they talked. the book is titled 'Jesus Speaks'. It has the painting he sat for, displayed on the back cover. i think Barnes and Noble carries it. i am not a bible reader. i'm not a churchgoer. i get into public arguments with evangelists about him--because i don't want anybody Dissin ma Homie! I hang wit da man! you know whut ahm sayin? dat's ma G you dissin, dog! anyway, if you want atext to read, in order to try to better get a grasp of what he wants for us, read that, and see if it has what you want. he never meant for us to be masochists and victims. far from it. one other thing: he really didnt want us bowing and scraping to him, either. its lonely at the top. he wanted friends and equals--not slaves! i once asked him to explain if he was a human being, or was he Divine--and he responded 'Like you: I am both' I felt sooooo foolish as i absorbed that. i cracked a silly grin and said 'I KNEW that. I did. I Knew that already! oh,God, do i feel dumb...' if you're interested, i can expand on my sessions with him, over time, on request. quite different from MJ-- in many respects.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:14:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek Message:

janet, My God, your story, I am so jealous and at the same time - my condolences for your loss...your story took my breath away. You have my respect.... Thank you , Elaine

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:27:05 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: Wow! You hit paydirt with that one, Bobby Message:

Boy do you two have a lot to talk with each other about! Alright!

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:09:42 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: my reply to you Message:

Just had an interesting thought Jim. Ever see the movie Ghandi? I forget some of the original context but it has to do I think with intolerance, in this case I think of African enforced racism. There's one scene where the British forces are arrayed against the Indians and it's up to the Indians to take their stand and move ahead. One by one the Indians simply step forward and are knocked to the ground by the rifle-buts of the British. My situation with you of course isn't so drastic. I'm not in any physical danger with you. However, I do consider you extremely abusive towards anyone who doesn't think like you. I consider your words as personal abuse and in a sense feel hit over the head with them. Not everyone feels that way but I do. Some of the postings I do here, some of the topics that excite me, have to do with my deeply held beliefs, experiences and views. I admit that many of my experiences and views may seem alien or strange to some or even many, but to me they are as close as my lifeblood. And at least some of us here are interested. So, when I posted what I did in answer to Janet, I did so consciously, knowing I would probably be 'hit on the head' by the likes of you. I chose to post anyway, because what she has to say deeply interests me. And, there are several others posters here whose posts, while not hitting so strongly on what I hold as most dear, are very interesting to me as well. I've repeatedly seen you abuse many. I don't know what you experience with this. What I call abuse you may think of as playful sarcasm or ridicule? But then I think of it as more. You don't seem playful to me at all. You seem hell-bent on proving your points. Your words have hurt me and I think some others. It's really a shame. You do more harm here than you know.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:29:02 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: .....and you know what? Message:

perhaps this kind of arrogance that you display is similar to the 'lord of the universe' arrogance I used to experience in the old premie days. You know, Maharaji is your 'everything'? Were you one of these kinds of premies Jim? I wasn't. However, in the old days, like back in the '70's for me, I used to take the wild 'lord of the universe' satsangs a little bit seriously. I figured maybe I was missing something. Never really did get into the lord of the universe, but there was a lot more for me in the way of good feelings - love, honesty, and spiritual quest with the premies. While a premie, I did a lot of reading and checking out of the various explanations for 'how it all is'. Spiritual explanations held the most for me. I read a good bit of science as well. My main motivation was to come to terms with the extremely potent experiences I had had with near-death and spiritual crisis. In those days, the terms weren't even invented. Maharaji didn't work for me and I stopped looking for 'the answer' in Maharaji around the close of the '70's. I gave it a good shot, gave up years of my life, gave up everything and moved in the ashram. My career really has for the most part has been about coming to terms with what I experienced in my 'spiritual visions' of 30 years ago. You know really know very little about what I experienced, why do you continue your insults?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 18:11:32 (GMT) From: JC Email: None To: Bobby Subject: you sound more like 'an eye for an eye' Message:

I know I'm not your buddha, but I was a little disappointed to see you return Jim's insult with an insult of your own toward him, in bold-faced type, no less. Rather ironic, considering the topic of the thread. See Jim as a man who honors truth. As he sees it. If he sees truth through a glass darkly, that weakness is something he shares with you. So you are brothers, both in the love of truth, and in the imperfect ways you express it. Only a man who can see the hidden love can turn the other cheek and feel no pain. An angry or hurt man should not do so, just to obey the rule. If he does so, he will only double his pain.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:45:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby Message:

My 'insults' are just my plain guy reaction to your new age ideas. Now, look at it this way. Say, I'm wrong and you're right. Isn't it just right and fitting that assholes like me are going to give you something of a rough ride when you espouse those ideas? But doesn't that just make it stronger and sweeter for you in the end? Have faith, Bobby. This is all happening for a reason.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 07:35:57 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: Buddhism's new age ?????? nt Message:

Jim, Maybe it would be an improvement in linguistics to stop using the term ' new age' to describe Buddhist principles which are 2,500 years old don't you think? Hal

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:06:23 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby Message:

You said: My 'insults' are just my plain guy reaction to your new age ideas. Now, look at it this way. Say, I'm wrong and you're right. Isn't it just right and fitting that assholes like me are going to give you something of a rough ride when you espouse those ideas? But doesn't that just make it stronger and sweeter for you in the end? Have faith, Bobby. This is all happening for a reason. Your other post had some points that I did want to respond to, like why I keep coming to this site and why I feel motivated to speak. However, I have quite a bit to say and don't know if I want to put the time in just now. I will respond to what you say here though. First of all, I'm not 'new age'. That's a catch-all phrase with many meanings, a buzz-word button of sorts. Don't want to get into it, but I'm not new age. I've told you before, on a couple of occasions I think. When you use such a term to me it's like saying 'nigger' to a black person and I do think you use it to ridicule. I'm Tibetan Buddhist and have taken vows as such within the past year. I suspect you know little to nothing of Tibetan Buddhism and I won't get into it here. Let me just say that my visions of 30 years ago, which are most powerful experiential energies in my life are like rivers flowing into the ocean of Buddhist teachings. I could say a lot more about what this means to me but I really don't think you are interested in hearing so I won't. The rest of what you say is totally off the mark as well. You have very little insight into the experiences I've had or what I've been through. You really don't know but act as if you've been through it all before. You haven't.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:08:55 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby Message:

Dear Bobby, There are many people here who DO want to hear what you have to say. You are right, Jim hasn't attempted to respect or understand anyone's religious beliefs or spiritual experiences at all. He sees it as his mission to disabuse those who find spiritual meaning in their lives of their illusions. And it *IS* insulting. Incredibly insulting. I've experienced it, so many people here have experienced it, but it continues on and on. That is just Jim, doing his thing. Glad to see you asserting yourself. You gotta stand up to people like Jim. Take care Helen

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:24:27 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: Helen Subject: Just a little 'Me too' and... Message:

I am happy to see you here now at a time when I happen to be visiting. Maybe Jim really is on a mission to make those with faith stronger by providing such consistent and reliable contrariness! Interesting idea posed by Jim himself! Yes, makes it all the sweeter! Love, Carol

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:55:11 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: Look at it this way, Bobby Message:

I really try to take in a lot of information and do fair processing with it all. It's like this anthropology class I took for two semesters in the early 70's. The class was really different and the instructor went out of his way to get across the simple perspective that people from different cultures see things in totally different ways. Perceptions are based on deep structures in mind or brain according to one's view. It was really, really amazing to me that most could not get the simple themes that the instructor presented. Most dropped the class. I've done a lot of studies in the varieties of spirituality over many years. Analysis is part of my study, but analysis by no means covers everything. Some things must just be experienced. Things like love and even DeNiro's 'Analyze this' come to mind. :) Good to talk with you, Love, Bobby

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:22:40 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen and a ps to Janet Subject: flames and all Message:

I know the FA just asked we keep this stuff to a minimum but I think these types of issues do help us resolve past cult programming or at least start to come to terms. They are key issues. I've missed your lighter side lately. Could have used some of Tami in my life to cheer me up. Lately I've been really trying to stay away from threads that will inflame or cause ME to make an intense post I may regret later. A good example is the mideast conflict. I have strong not so unpopular opinions about it but stayed away. I dont' a lot of energy lately. Having said that I do have to say it is very hard to read posts that sound so sure about what happens after death. That was tough to take, the 'life review' thing. Sorry Janet. I may be misinterpreting as can be the foibles of this medium. But I just lost my mother and it's very hard to sit by and read this type of thing w/o asking 'how can you be so sure????' Even M in his revised edition doesn't claim to know what happens after death.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 04:54:36 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Selene Subject: griefwork,aftershock,wanting to know Message:

when my mother finally died, i wondered what i would feel. initially, nothing.but by midnight that night i was acting very strangely.i went up on the roof of the apt bldg and laid down on the gravel and curled up in fetal position, and regressed to infancy, waiting in a crib for a mommie who would never come in and get me ever again. the artsy premies of the argyle apt bldg knew i'd been going to the ICU ev day for 14 days. they knew i was sitting a deathwatch. they came up after midnight and found me immobile and kind of catatonic. they got me to my feet and led me down inside and covered me, brought me food, and sat with me, but didnt fuss. everything felt strange. i functioned numbly but adequately for the following weeks, but a brother befriended me next door and offered to take me back to denver where i'd been when i got the call to come out. i went. It was the basement of an ancient denver mansion.a band manager from georgia had taken me in as his home secretary and cook and housekeeper when the premies upstairs had closed their doors on me. once back, i steadily drifted into a state of grey isolation. i spent 18 hours on average, lying immobile on a steel cot, staring into nothing. i destroyed the corkboard walls that defined my room and moved into the stone lined subterranean mudroom that led up stone steps to the back yard. all my waking hours, I would press my cheek against the clammy stone,lying mute and still, craving to know where my mother went, and wanting to go with her, wherever it might be. i had zero training or dogma about what happened at death. there was no talk of it in my family. I had no beliefs, no ideas, no nothing. all i had was the irrevocable fact that she had left the world and was never coming back. the same premie who'd driven me back, dropped by one afternoon, and told me to get my coat; we were going to see someone. he told me not to tell the guy anything about myself, let the man do all the talking. slack as a cold noodle, i agreed. out at the house in the modest suburbs, an old fellow came to the sidewalk and escorted us into his home, into a pink sitting room full of sun. we sat on a small couch, he sat in a hard chair. and closed his eyes and cocked his head as if getting instructions. I occupied myself with glancing over the book titles and the figures of all 35 or so presidents he had on the sideboard, while he told my companion about who he was in past lives. I was just hanging out, not a part of the reading. suddenly, while the old fellow was still speaking and pausing to 'hear' additional info he was to give the guy, I unmistakeably felt my mother walk into the room!!! i was quickened, and sat up, on point, staring toward the door, expecting to actually see and hear her come in, any minute. As i did so, the man on the chair, his eyes still closed, tilted his head and paused in his narrative to turn that way, and then nodded to someone unseen and then directed his voice at me: 'there is a woman here, who says she would like to speak to the young lady. she says her name is Betty, and that she doesnt' hold you responsible for the circumstances of her passing over. she says she is happy there, now. I see her surrounded by several others, family, it seems. they are all making gestures that indicate that they are glad to be reunited again. there is a small woman, and an older man, and another man, betty's age. he says to tell you 'don't sweat the small stuff'...'the woman says that she is very close to you, and is particularly able to be with you when you sit in meditation. she says that she sees your loss, and wants very much to help you in your void. she says you do not need a medium such as myself in order to speak to her, if you would develop your innate abilities.' you would think i would be happy, right? Wrong. I was repulsed. no way in hell did i want to go opening no doors to talk to the dead! no thankyou! what a gross thought! ( i was 23 then) I knew who the other three with her were. the little woman was her mother, who had thrown herself off a 6 story building in postpartum depression when my mother Betty was 17. the older man was my grandfather,a patriarch who never remarried, and built up a sizeable fortune in road paving, carrying all his 12 grown siblings in a large house he bought, and kept them, until his death of endstage cancer, only three years prior. his death and my mothers grief in its aftermath, had been a major factor in propelling me to finding and receiving and committing to Knowledge. I had tried in vain to bring her to it, too.The last fellow was my deceased Uncle Teddy, who lived large as a ski bum and died on a toilet at synanon, ODing on narcotics someone had smuggled in to him while he was supposedly detoxing there to get free of prescription painkillers. My mother's alcoholsm had been fueled by the string of grief in her life, from her mother's suicide, to losing my father in her divorce, to her brother's overdose, to her father's cancer. now i moved to the head of the line, to take her place in the great chain. this news that people survive after death should have helped me. in a minor way, it did. but it was no answer to the terror i felt, now facing the world with no intercessors. they were all gone, and i was alone in the world. i had years of nightmares, about life and death and mortality. i read books. i watchd programs. i was put on SSI and soc sec disability for my unstable state. a great rage seethed under the surface all the time. i tore into strangers with my eyes, demanding to know if they had a hand in her death. i went out at night for long, explosive walks in the alleys, unseeing, smashing random windows with my fist and not knowing i had done so. i didnt change my clothes for months. i couldnt recall what clothes were for, or why we wore them or washed them. i remember standing staring into a closet for an entire day, unaware of why i was there, and at the end of the day, closing it and going back to the cot and putting my cheek to the stone once again. it was another ten years before i had another experience with a visitation from Christ. and another five before the third. but the third time came as a result of an unexpected visitation from a dead rock star whose works i was curious about, and after his coming to me, I wasnt ready to believe was really trying to communicate to me. i was a major skeptic, hell bent on proving it was all something i could safely ignore. but it kept coming! moreover, other people, in the room with me, could hear him too. some could see him. he began bringing other famous people around to talk to us, who were up there, or over there. if it had just been happening to me, i would have believed i was crazy and delusional and checked myself in. but one after another my friends and acquaintences told me he was coming to talk to them too, apart from me. some were excited, some were sheepish, some were indignant. but there was no denying it anymore.So I finally relented and said i would be willing to help these entities if i could, if that was what they wanted. I will withold their names until a future post. who they are was not as important as the fact that i got a several years long education at their hands about life, death, the afterlife, and what really are 'heaven', 'hell' and 'purgatory'. i can tell you this--ALL the world's classic scriptures, as well as the mythologies, are true. they are ALL real. the buddhist, the hindu, the celtic, the nordic, the greek, the native american--they are ALL real. they live in those upper( and lower) dimensions as we have been told they do. and anyone can have a personal relationship with them for the asking. it is a personla journey. no amount of someone else telling you can answer it. you have to go there for yourself. death is just the beginning, the spur that gets you moving. if mata ji's death has shaken her son up and got him feeling not so cocksure anymore, then good. he's started on the journey. he doesnt meditate, he doesnt practice any discipline, he's got his little world view locked up tight--then death is just the visitor to wake him up and beckon him down the road untraveled. and Selene--grief has its own strange lessons to teach. they arent fun, but they are precious and vast.embrace and trust the Guide, no matter how unfamiliar the map. trust yourself. no matter how you feel, no matter how you behave, it is the right way for you. no one can tell grief how to be. there isnt anything to be 'done' for it.rather than fight or run, listen to it. be with it. and dont make demands on yourelf. this one is deep.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:37:30 (GMT) From: Carol Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: griefwork,aftershock,wanting to know Message:

You have expressed some wisdom, but are you really being straight with what you say you've experienced!? It sounds made up, it is so extreme! My (former) psychiatrist would have a field day with the account you have provided! Visitations and voices: saint or psychotic? Carol Sap that I am, it made me cry a bit to read about your experiences. So they had better be real, or you are being deceptive and untrue and playing with gullible hearts. It is OK either way. I cry at fiction too. Just so you know the difference.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 07:00:36 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Carol Subject: no fiction. it's all true. weep freely-i did Message:

nt nt nt nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 02:58:20 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Carol and Janet Subject: whew glad you posted that Message:

I wanted to respond to Janet but was somewhat taken aback. Mostly because the writing reminds me a LOT of someone who used to post here. But thanks Janet and everyone. If I am off here for a while please don't take it wrong. I have a huge new multimedia project and people bothering me and I don't know a thing about audio recording and editing. Good thing I knew a few musicians.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 14:49:50 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: Know what you you mean, dearie Message:

Oh could it be so? Does it matter?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:17:52 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Selene Subject: ot: speculations on death Message:

Hi Selene, So sorry to hear of your mother's passing. I know it can be very difficult. As you know I've had what is known as a 'near-death experience'. I've spoken with many, many people at length who have had NDE's. There are a whole variety of experiences. I'm not 'certain' as to what happens after death and I don't think anyone is. I'm not afraid of death. At all. I feel I understand the dying process a great deal. I even believe I have had experiences that may be on the same ground as 'after death'. But maybe not. I can say that the 'most real' experience of my life was what happened when I encountered a 'Master Presence' face-to-face. This being knew me intimately and I can feel his/her Presence while I type. Sitting here in the body typing is like a dream to me. Really. I am blessed with the reference point of that encounter in my life. I know many people who have had glorious, blissful NDE's and I know some who have had difficult encounters or even hellish experiences. I know many people who experienced nothing. For the people that I know who had the 'hellish' experiences, the contexts changed eventually and they believed they got value out of the experience. The experiences changed their lives. I believe as the Buddhists do, that we die as we have lived. It's not in the material, but in the heart of the matter. The deepest layers of self. Love and compassion are the basis in so many of the spiritual teachings. All of us are going to die. It's a natural process. All of my studies, direct experiences and spiritual practices lead me to believe that awareness continues. We die, then continue in some form or other. Like going to sleep and waking up, again and again. And if not, so what? Then it's completely over and nothing continues. Hope that helps even just a little.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 02:31:17 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bobby Subject: it all helps thanks Bobby Message:

You know how it is, we spent or I did anyway decades getting M's premie-think shoved down my throat and the new agey premies have left a lasting impression on me !! I've always enjoyed talking with you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:18:49 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Grief *is* exhausting Message:

Hi Selene I'm sorry I haven't commented sooner on your mother's death. I'm so sorry. I do know something of the exhausting grief process. It just makes you tired and unable to deal with a bunch of squabbling people. Maybe Tami Rainbow or another of my characters will come out to play soon. I know what you mean about avoiding posts that you know are going to get your goat. It's good advice. I didn't mean to imply that I have a clue about what happens after death. I don't have a clue about it. I was just wishing Jim would have a life review and get a taste of his own medicine, that's all. I hope you find some peace in those you love...and love from Helen

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:25:56 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: thanks Helen Message:

For the condolences. I don't want to keep bringing up my personal problems but this thread was so relevent to some of the inner struggles I am having. Usually I get so full of life this time of year. It finally drops below 90 degrees outside and I wake up and start exercising and taking care of myself. But not this week. Soon I hope. I'm emotional, wasn't accusing you of anything. But I thought Jim was rather kind to Janet. For Jim. Hey he didn't call HER a bitch :) :) (hi Jim)

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 21:00:19 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Grief, etc (ot) Message:

That's a bitch that the one time of year when it's not so god-awful hot, you have to be goign through this. One book that was helpful to me was 'A grief Observed' by C.S. Lewis, but I don't know if it would be your cup of tea. He was a CHristian but I think the book is fairly universal in its approach. Anyway, you just take care of yourself. Of course you're going to be emotional, this is a huge loss for you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:37:28 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Selene Subject: flames and all Message:

Hi Selene - I had one of my only 'mystical/spiritual' experiences when my dad was dying (he was brain-dead in a coma for weeks, so his actual 'time of death' is hard to determine.) What Janet said about the life review rings true to me, based on what I experienced - I sensed that my father had gone through this as well. However, it didn't seem to be a negative thing at all - it seemed to be a very freeing and joyful experience for him to finally understand what had gone on during his life. I had similar experiences (although definitely not as intense) after the deaths of two other people I had been close to.) You wrote: But I just lost my mother and it's very hard to sit by and asking 'how can you be so sure'. I think I know how you feel because I told my sister about the experience I had when my dad was dying. She's a very spiritual person (in a really pragmatic way), and she believed that I'd had the experience and that it was valid. However, even though I had had the experience, she hadn't, and she couldn't get the same kind of feeling from it - she kept saying 'I WISH I had felt that, too. She had nightmares for months about my father's death, and I think she still worries about him. I can't say for sure that I KNOW what happens after death - I just know that that experience changed my whole internal feeling of what happens after death. I have talked to several other people who have had similar experiences after the death of people they were close to. Most of these people didn't expect anything like that to happen and are still puzzled by it, but the experience definitely affected their feelings about death and dying. Take care, Selene - Love to you, Katie

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:05:26 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: Near death experiences Message:

I am sure a lot of peopel have what is called their whole life flashing in front of them. I imagine it to be a kind of last gasp effect. I had what is called a NDE once. A very powerful one. light, tunnel, being called back. The whole bit. Years later a co-worker asked me 'how do you know for a fact that it isn't a biochemical reaction?' I couldn't argue the point. Irregardless I still question what happened and am not sure. But I am fairly sure no one knows for certain what happens AFTER death.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:22:36 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Well, I'm honoured, I guess (??) Message:

Bobby, I don't want to hurt anyone. Well, hardly anyone. But I do want to hurt dumb ideas. Yes, if I was ever in the little house in New Mexico or wherever it was that Jesus last appeared in a tortilla (Janet, all I can say is you should have been there!), I'd be laughing my head off. Hey, mayge the joke's on me, in the end. Maybe baby Jesus, or whoever else shp sends to greet me in my final moments, will rub my nose in the fact that I ridiculed you -- or Janet, or Gerry with his David Icke bullshit -- when, in fact, you, she, he or whoever really had it right. There must be a special room in hell for the ridiculer. Whatever it's like I'm sure it's not nice and I know it's not funny .... Bobby, like you yourself say, like you admit you know, this forum is simply not a safe place to dream out loud about these things. I mean, look at the Israel / Palestine thread below. After seeing all the anti-Israeli sentiment here don't you think I'd be a fool to post a lot of puffy, warm and fuzzy stories like 'A-Day-in-the-life-of-young-Tel-Aviv-boy-Yehuda-and-his-dog-Yassar'? This wouldn't be the right audience. Not if I didn't want a little flak. So what can I tell you? I get a cheap high making fun of new age thinking, religious thinking, that kind of thing. But the only reason we're both here is to discuss Maharaji, not those other things. Why you'd want to bring them up here when you know you won't get an easy ride of it is beyond me. Oh, and by the way, that analogy to the British and Indians? Give me a bit of a break there, Bobby? Like, don't be silly .... oops! Did it again, I guess......

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:25:04 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Bobby's original question was great Message:

Jim - I, for one, would like to hear Mickey's answer to Bobby's original post at the top of this thread. I thought it was a good question, and ridiculing it as 'dreaming out loud' or 'warm and fuzzy' is way off base. I am not a Christian, but Mickey's textual interpretations are always interesting to me (especially in making sense of my Christian past). Furthermore, Mickey's PERSONAL ideas about Christianity, the scriptures, and life in general are interesting to me, and often helpful. IMHO, Mickey has got his head screwed on straight, and I get a lot out of his posts. I think at least several other people here do too. I hope Mickey isn't put off from answering Bobby's question because of your subsequent posts ridiculing Janet and insulting Bobby. I think we ALL know by now that you get a cheap high making fun of new age thinking, religious thinking, that kind of thing. You don't have to remind of us of that in every other thread on this forum.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: That wasn't the one I was ridiculing, Sherlock (nt Message:

gggggg

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:51:32 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh, I get it, you were ridiculing Janet, not Bobby Message:

Why did you go after Bobby then? Because of something JANET posted? Or because he's Bobby? By the way, I agree with Helen that Bobby is more than welcome on this forum. Janet too. I may not agree with what they have to say, but I think their posts are interesting.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:35:53 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Jim Subject: you will be given a life review, not punishment Message:

as i relate somewhere in older posts (life after death, i think) there is no hell for punishment. if you havent read bobby's webpage, please do. when you die from this life, you will not be punished for ridiculing. what will happen is that you will be shown your life from a completely different perspective than you see it here. nothing will be imposed on you. rather, you will be asked what you feel about what you view, and you yourself will make the decisions about what you want to do once you see it. maybe you need to get in the habit of considering to think before you shoot. develop some discernment for what battles are worth starting, joining or fighting, and which are smarter to leave to others. not everything that moves is a target, darling.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:42:52 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: It'll be like a bad B movie then Message:

in my case. I think I'd prefer to go to the popcorn counter than have to watch myself making mistake after mistake throughout my whole life. Maybe someone else can watch it for me and tell me about the best bits. Christ, I don't want to have to watch myself going through all the crap I've been through. If I'm lucky, they might lose the film.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:42:59 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: janet of venice Subject: So THAT's how it works! Message:

Actually, Janet, I did read A Christmas Story, you know, (okay, I saw the movie), so I'm not completely unaware of the mysteries of the death and the big ghost Guilt Trip awaiting all of us ridiculers. So I'm not so worried for myself, I can handle it. But you, Janet, what's going to happen to you? There going to make you read all your posts, just crying for a little, oh shall we say ... capitalization .. perhaps. Are you ready for that tour? Brace thyself, o' sister, the nigh is high and dry.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:56:05 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Jim Subject: So THAT's how it works! Message:

Jim- I see you're on a roll lately, insulting Katie and Brian, insulting Bobby and insulting Janet. Not everything *IS* about you, Jim. You don't have to comment on EVERY interaction that goes on here. None of us breathlessly awaits your opinion on any given subject. I do hope there *IS* a life review at the time of death so that you can experience what it's like to be shot down by you. You have such an appetite for meanness and nastiness. You get pleasure from other people's pain. You are one sick puppy.

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 23:48:29 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen? Message:

Insulting Brian??? Are you crazy? Read the threads. That's bullshit.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 00:13:25 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jim Subject: On this occasion, she's right, Jim... Message:

I thought your dissing of Brian was way over the top - and not remotely confined to dealing with the contents of his original post. Sorry, but that's how it looked to me - hence my 'full moon' comment (not that I agreed with Brian's post to MD either).

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:19:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Yeah, sure, Nige, anything you say Message:

Time for a little textual exigesis. Here's Brian's post with my comments: I read your long post below, and was interested in your story. All of us who were involved with Maharaji can personally relate to parts of it. Good. But you don't OWE anyone here an accounting of your life. Those who feel that you do are as mistaken on this point as they have repeatedly been on other points of blame in the past. if you're attempting to convince them of your 'innocence' of whatever criminal look they've chosen to paint you with - it just won't happen. First question: who is Brian talking about? Who are these people who are 'as mistaken on this point as they have repeatedly been on other points of blame in the past'? Is he talking about you, Nige? Joe? Katie maybe? Who? I mean that sounds pretty harsh just out of the gate. You mean we have a serial blamer here? Scary stuff. But then there's Brian jumping in to protect Michael, I guess. Let's deal with the philosophical question, though, before it passes us by. Do YOU agree that neither Michael nor any other PAM owes us or any one us any accounting of any kind? If so, then you must think that every last bit of infmormation Michael's given us so far has all been gratuitous. The guy headed up our master's cult for years but no, he doesn't owe us any explanation. You agree with that or not? Personally, I think it's hogwash. Tell me, why do you think Micahel feels as good as he does right now (yeah it sounds like he feels GREAT!)? Is it because he just did something superflous, coming out clearly against the cult as he has? No, of course not. It's because he's doing the right thing. And he knows it. And we all know it. And Brian, bless his heart, is simply wrong about this. But that's just my opinion. What's yours? Most, if not all, of the people who use the forum have found and chosen to use it on their own, and for their own reasons. None of them have been called on the carpet and been subjected to the accountability that you have. Oooooh, heaVY! What is this shit, may I ask? What 'own reasons' is he talking about? And accountability? For what? Forgetting to write 'OT'? Well the FA took us to task for that. I agree it was serious but ... really, where is this going? Let's see: But among to many here, unless you are willing to take some blood-oath of loyalty to what is perceived by an over-vocal minority here to be 'the rational position' indicating ex-premie purity, you'll still find yourself wearing a big red 'P' in their eyes. Again, who's Brian talking about? Is that you, Nigel, with your so-called 'rational position'? Are YOU Robespierre or Calvin or whomever? Who are these ugly tyrants tar-and-feathering the valiant religious minorities amongst us? Who's got the red paint brush, I guess we need to know. SOMEONE'S GONE TOO FAR AND BRIAN'S JUMPING IN TO STOP A LYNCHING! So who's he talking about anyway? Conversations that you have with these people will continue to be posted here by them. You have no 'right' to privacy or confidentiality with them. Whatever confidences they might choose to keep in life, they are incapable of respecting your right and choice to keep confidences. Bingo! He's talking about me, Nige. But, know what? I never once posted anything about any of our conversations without Michael's knowledge beforehand. He knew what I was about and I never hid it. SO WHAT IS THIS SHIT, NIGE? I tried to ask Brian myself in a particularly measured response but, as Katie herself smirked, Brian never reads my posts. This forum was never set up to target individual premies. Most people use it as a means of communicating their own feelings with the small group of people wandering the globe who have gone through the same 'experience' as they have. For those undergoing the process of removing themselves from all the garbage beliefs that got them into and keep them involved in the cult, it's very beneficial to be able to read and post anonymously here. No argument -- to some extent. As I've said before, I still think that anyone who uses the cult to their own advantage, as Michael did when her first blurbed it onto his resume as he did, is fair game. That's it. And if that person was extremely highly-placed in the cult, all the more so. But then that's my opinion. Again, what's yours? In the time we were involved together in the cult, we called each other brother and sister. But, let's face it - many of the people we shared 'that experience' with were, are, and will continue to be, assholes. Most were 'low-ranking' assholes who wanted to be 'high-ranking' assholes. This forum is probably the only place in their lives where they've achieved that illustrious goal. So you take issue with my slagging Brian a bit. Well, as a low-ranking asshole who's only interest in this forum is to make myself seem like a high-ranking asshole, I resent that. But then who cares what us assholes think. Brian seems to know what we think but that's different. Nigel, how would you like it if someone accused you of having one agenda here and that being self-aggrandizement? That's it, one interest. Others here, like dear sweet ... oh I won't even mention her name ... they're here for the right reason. But you, Nigel, well, we've got your number. Tell me, Nige, how would you like it? Next question: do you believe that about me? Any former members of the cult who ranked higher than these newly-arrived giants are also assholes in their sight. Just ask Dettmers if he ever, for a second, got the sense that I felt that way about him, even when he wasn't really talking? This is wholesale imagined bullshit and you know it. At least about me, it is. Okay, so Brian's diatribe wasn't just about me. I know that. So tell me, Nige, do you think that this blast fairly applies to anyone? Is that what Roger, for example, is all about? He wasn't a PAM so -- FOR THAT REASON -- he hates them? And if not me or Roger, who would this slam pertain to? Joe? Is that why Joe was so hard on Dettmers? What IS your opinion, Nige. I can't have this discussion with Brian so maybe you can help explain. If you don't know just make shit up. I think that's the idea, isn't it? The common desire here to hold Maharaji accountable for his actions, lies and theft is understsndable. But using this forum to supoena people who ARE NOT Maharaji to an online trial here is diverting this resource to serve petty personal agendas. Let's overlook the hyperbole, shall we? Let's get down to the 'petty personal agendas'. What are they, Nigel? Please. And refusing to respect the efforts of other ex-members of the cult (whatever their past access to 'The Lord') to post honestly here without threats of online reprisals if the content falls short of a guilty plea is reprehensible. I'm sure you thought nothing much about this part of his post. But maybe that's just because you're one of the lucky ones. You've never BEEN threatened like that by me or my crew, have you? We're talking 'online reprisals', Nigel. It isn't pretty. In fact, there's a moral rottenness to this revolution. There are bodies on the street that don't LOOK like they should be there. And where's all the money gone anyway? Good for Brian, for sticking up for the true and righteous, I guess. And aren't I a motherfucker for slagging him? You can choose for yourself whether you want to involve yourself with Jim Heller. He posts under his own name and has chosen to be held accountable for his words and anctions online by doing so. I don't doubt that if you or any other ex-PAM's fart on the phone to him, we'll all 'get' to smell it. Nigel, I'm going to do the very thing that Brian's accused me of here. I'm going to reveal a secret of yours. You -- yes YOU, Nigel -- have, from time to time, emailed me. Yes, that's right. You have, as recently as a week ago, chosen for yourself whether you wanted to involve yourself with me. And here I am telling the world! How do you feel now, sucker???? Got you, didn't I? But 'Roger E. Drek' also has a real name. If he continues to use this forum (which is paid for by volunteers who want to support the spreading of truth online) to ANONYMOUSLY carry on a personal campaign against you, or to publicise here any off-site material 'exposing you', feel free to ask me for it. Okay, new ground rules. When Joey slagged Roger -- insanely, I might add -- as a cult operative (can you imagine a worse accusation for a recent ex?), pornographer and general devil, Roger outed him once to the extent that he reported that he was posting from an internet cafe in Montreal. In fact, that might have been even because Joey was posting under some alias then. I can't recall. Anyway, Brian and Katie treated that little defensive measure on Roger's part as a profoundly evil cardinal sin. Need I say more? And congratulations on being able to extricate yourself from the trap we all walked onto. Well, I have no disagreement with that last sentence. In fact, the post would have been absolutely EXCELLENT if he just hadn't added the other parts. Your thoughts?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 01:45:24 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Reply coming soon.. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 00:30:30 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: What does 'soon' mean? (nt) Message:

hhhhhhh

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:04:51 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitz.. To: Jim Subject: When I'm good and ready! Message:

Hmm, the thread will have gone cold soon, won't it? Are you that interested? Am I that interested..? Really, really busy right now... back soon..

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 22:08:29 (GMT) From: janet of venice Email: None To: Jim Subject: shall he and I make our chats public, here?? Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 21:05:43 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: janet of venice Subject: thanks Janet! Message:

Hi Janet, Thanks for sharing some of what you have experienced. I'd sure like to hear more. Please post here or email. Also, I have a website that posts these sorts of 'transformative stories'. With my illness encounters of the last few years I've not been able to do much with the site, but there remain some good stories, including my own. I'd love to post your story about your first person encounter with Jesus and whatever else you'd like to say. I've had encounters with the Presence myself and some of my stories are posted on my website. For me, the Presence is Buddha. I'm now a Tibetan Buddhist and a sincere practitioner. I've finally found a path that works for me and it's taken me more than 30 years of active effort. In my view, God comes in many forms and the emanation or incarnation is specific to the individual. What's important is not the form, but the deep meaning and context. By the way, Jesus was a part of my process of healing through cancer. My most recent story is on my web page is here: Visionary Encounters with Cancer and Buddhism

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Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2000 at 18:45:02 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bobby Subject: to Mickey the Pharisee on 'turning the other cheek Message:

Hi Bobby and MIckey - Michael, if you could address at least the textual analysis (and your opinions on that) here, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Katie

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