Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:09:00 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Blackmail Message:

Michael, It seems to me that I recall a 'Bill Murray' who was some kind of DLM/DV honcho, but that was a long time ago, so I could be wrong. I can't imagine that a weasel like that would use his or her own name, though. People who blackmail are notorious cowards. They operate in the shadows. Frankly, I can't quite figure out what Bill Murray fears you might say that hasn't already been said. I guess you just might have more credibility having been around Maharaji more than many of the rest of us. I think the pictures of Maharaji on this website and the simple recitation of what happened in the cult, especially in light of Maharaji's attempt to re-write the past, a la George Orwell, is plenty damning. It seems that silence is Maharaji's big defense, although a highly ineffective one. Just pretend it didn't happen, and instill enough fear in your followers of ever saying anything. And I agree with Anon, the motivation really is fear. Plus, the truth brought up to the light of day is lethal to Maharaji and I think many of the premies know it. They want to keep the cult, and their extremely fragile belief system going and they fear that information will kill it, and they are probably right. I'm not sure how calculated Maharaji is about this, although given that Elan Vital wouldn't have published those lying and disgraceful FAQs on the Elan Vital website without his approval, he seems directly participating in the deceit and cover-up. On the other hand, ex-premies, once they get out of the Maharaji cult, often have an insatiable NEED for the information they were denied while in teh cult. Once you don't fear Maharaji anymore, you really want to see the information and that really helps you figure out what was really going on, and it helps people incorporate the cult experience and move on with productive lives. But I am really envious, Michael. I have been posting around here for a couple of years, and nobody has ever threatened me with anything. Sad, really. I was hoping they could do better than that. I guess I just don't rate. But this can go both ways. For example, I knew Marcia Leitner in the Maharaji cult. I served with Marcia Leitner in Divine Light Mission, and although I can't say Marcia was ever a friend of mine, based on her swallowing her morals and ethics and towing the Elan Vital line, I can say she is no Jack Kennedy. ::)) She is certainly NOT a Profile in Courage, that's for sure. But given that Marcia is still operating in the cult, she is still operating under a lot of fear. Especially fear of displeasing or causing some difficulties for Maharaji. The thought of that feeling, which I recall myself, gives me the creeps. It is just so destructive to the human spirit. But I can't imagine that Marcia Leitner would like it known that she is on the board of directors of an organization that harbors child molestors. There are also lots of other premies who hide the fact that they ARE premies from their operations in the real world. Or at least they hide what being a premie means, what they really believe, and the worst of all, and the most embarrassing and difficult for most premies to explain, they hide the way Maharaji is, what is past is, how he lives an obscenely extravagant lifestyle, the fact that they worship him, and the rotten, uncarring things he has done to people, for which he will not accept any responsibility. Really, they hide the fact that they are in a personality cult that most normal thinking people would find repulsive. People like 'Bill Murray' probably don't want THAT known either. And I know what you mean about how laying out everything is so freeing and how the truth is so liberating. Maybe this isn't completely analogous, but as a gay man, I know this is an issue that many gay people live with through their lives. They can stay in the closet and be subject to blackmail at any time, and also they have to continually hide who they are. It's a really terrible tway to live, but coming out can be so terrifying. But then, when you do, you are free. You are who you are, and that's it. No one can blackmail you anymore, and you can be yourself. It's a much more powerful position. Joe

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:09:50 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re Blackmail and concepts Message:

Hi Joe I hope you could try to read this post as it was written by a non premie. Today I had my first consultations with a terapist. We discussed a lot of things, and I told her about one of the reasons I had come. I told her about all the things that happened to me which made me depressed. I told her about a comment I made here at the Forum, which made people jump at me and call me a pedophile. However much I denied this, the accusations went on. And I told her aboout the depresions I had this year also due to the remembrance that I was myself a victim of pedophily as a kid. In my consultations I also discussed about pedophiles. As expected she said that pedophily is something some people have. And she confirmed that there are different levels of pedophiles. Some people touch kids, some pedophiles probably stay a 'virgin' all their life. Some people have sex with kids. And some people rape kids. In the same way, it is with gays. And with hetreo. In this different shades of grey (rapist till 'virgin'), from what I understood from Susan, Jagdeo is probably in the area of being a 'virgin' to be a 'toucher'. Would you consider your statement re an organisation 'But I can't imagine that Marcia Leitner would like it known that she is on the board of directors of an organization that harbors child molestors' to be a bit harsh - or out of place? I sometimes remember when I was a kid. At that time, gay people were almost regarded as sick people as well as criminal. I think they actually were considered to sexually abuse kids. Thus blackmailing happened. Thus behaviour like pedophiles experience today happened. I dont try to excuse pedophhiles. I've said in my opinion they should be put under medical treatment or in jail. But I mean one has to distinguish between a person who has a desire, and a person who does a criminal act. And I suppose as my tereapist confirmed today, those who have this sexual desire, it makes no sense for really jugding them. And has not the jugdemental attitude destroyed already more than it had gained? You are from one sexual miniority. I suppose you know the history and the tragdedy to be an unaccepted person in the society due to your sexual tendencies. I kind of find it strange that people belonging to one sexual minority, are so jugdmental of even those who belong to another sexual minority.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 17:30:27 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: KNOCK IT OFF!!!!! Message:

Bjorn, First, I have to say you are the most ignorant person I have encountered in a long time. You need to do some research re: pedophiles, incest perpetrators, etc. There is a wide range of sex offenders out there and most (about 95%) are white heterosexual males. You should be very careful about spouting your mouth off about things you know NOTHING about! Your persistance is insulting and injurious to everyone here. You don't belong here. This is not a forum for healing from child sexual abuse. It's YOU'RE responsibility to get some help, (which btw, I don't believe you did). This forum is not about you, nor is is FOR you. What you have said in your posts is beyond ignorant--it's plain mean. Just as I was starting to believe you are not a pedophile, now I am reconsidering. You seem to have that same mental set that sex offenders have: denial, a huge 'pity-me' attitude, and a clear indifference to victims. Dare I say sociopathic??? Yet you persist in making clearly untrue remarks which hurt others here who were abused by men in power in the cult. STOP IT NOW!!! You have no right to spread myths about this issue, get a fucking book and read about this subject before you say anymore. By the way, children DO FORGET about sex abuse. Stop posting here, you are a sickening person. FA, please do something about this character. Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:15:30 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I WILL STOP. Message:

I will stop posting here. How is it possible to fight lies? The name of my terapist is Liv Haugen, phone number can be given. My next consultation is 24th of oct. You might call me ignorant of pedophily, but I dare say, so are others. But at least I have first hand experience of being a victim. BTW watch 'American Beauty'. If you read Gerrys comments about this movie, it might have given you a clue. In most of my posts and in my correspondance to Susan and to Anth I did stress the importance to first of all to take care of the victims. I still think so. In my fatal post which was twisted by a lot of ex-premies, was BTW a reply to you, I stated there to be an victim my self. It was told I just made this up afterwards. The tread was about Jagdeo and other stuff. If I have by my posting here hurt anyone, I regret it and I am terrible sorry. I suppose I am just a volnerable guy and for me this whole thing has been a nightmare. I have mailed the FA, if I ever for some reason will not follow Maharaji anymore, I will sue this Forum and Gerry. That is not a treat, it is a promise,

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:45:29 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I Sure As Hell Hope So Message:

Bjorn: Your statement, ...if I ever for some reason will not follow Maharaji anymore, I will sue this Forum and Gerry,'reveals you to be a classic victimizer posing as a victim, certainly not my favorite personality type. Do yourself a favor and get rid of your computer and continue to see your therapist. You both have your work cut out for you, that's for sure.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 16:37:56 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn's 'memory surge' Message:

Here's what's so fake about bjorn's clain to have been molested as a child. He said he had no memory of this until he came to this forum and was confronted. I say this is simply a lie. If you are molested as a child, you don't forget it. As for pedophiles being merely a sexual minority similiar to being gay, I can not think of anything more reprehensible and untrue as that statement.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:40:00 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: gerry Subject: Uh, Gerry Message:

I agree with your last statement, but not your first. It is true that children, or even teenagers, who are sexually abused often forget. When we were both very young teenagers, my sister had a sexually related encounter initiated by an adult. She TOLD me about the incident at the time (and at the time, neither of us knew anyone else that we could trust to tell about it.) She then repressed the memory and spent several years in therapy trying to uncover it - she finally did. My brother has had the same problem with repressing memories of physical abuse - he told both me and my sister at the times these abuses happened, but 'can't remember' it now, although he will take our word for it. This is a really sad situation, by the way. I don't really want to talk about this because it's upsetting to me, but I did want to tell you that it can and does happen. Katie

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 20:22:21 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Uh, Kathie (snicker) Message:

Thanks. I did a quick search and here's the first thing I came up with: First, it's important to state that there is a consensus among memory researchers and clinicians that most people who were sexually abused as children remember all or part of what happened to them although they may not fully understand or disclose it. Of course, 'most' isn't all. I gotta go, but I'm definitely gonna look into this subject some more.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:37:36 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: wrong Bjorn Message:

That is all that happened to me, much worse happened to the other victims. And I reported, from the start, that much worse had happened to other girls. Are you somehow trying to imply that being a child molester is like being gay? That is revolting. I am not going to go into the details of the molestation of the other girls, but much worse happened, they were much younger than I was. Your post is revolting and insulting.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:44:32 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Susan Subject: Susan Message:

I never inteded to insult you. But where were you when I as a victim over and over again was falsely accused of being a pedophile? In our correspondance you believed me, and you said nothing! Not even once. I was kicked and kicked, and you were silent. I dont know the truth about Jagdeo. The truth about what happened to you and Abi you have told me. The truth about other things I would say only Jagdeo and the victims will know. But in our correspondance I got the picture that no sexual intercourse took place with the other victims. I do not in any way mean to imply that being a child molester is like being gay? But I remember when I was a kid, I never heard the word pedophile, But we were told that homosexuals did sexual things to children. If someone gave candies to cildren in our street, people said he was a homosexual. Bye

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:04:43 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: You are proving I was right to remain silent Message:

You have said so many sick things here on this subject and now you are somehow that if molestation doesn't include intercourse there is no 'harm'?? You know, I should not even respond to you. You do not deserve it. Good luck to your therapist. Please go away.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 22:53:42 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re your silence to an innocent man Message:

I am also reffering to a a program I watched on TV and one person with a lot of experience, said excactly that. His words was something like this: Sometimes a person gets a hard on in the company of a child(is that the expression)- And no harm is actually done. And sometimes there are accusations of sexual abus of such cases, and it turns to be a big mess by some overeager lawyers and health personell. What this bloke said, when this process start, the child or person really becomes a victim.' I never said or meant that no harm might be done if there is no intercourse: But it does not need to (the bloke said) But the intercourse part is what people think about, when the word pedophile is mentioned, I also think that touching a child might be harmful. Bur not nessessary. But I definitely think intercourse is a lot worse and sickening.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:21:26 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Bjorn, PLEASE stop this Message:

I understand what you are referring to in the above posts and in your talk with your therapist, but THIS IS NOT WHAT SUSAN AND ABI ARE TALKING ABOUT. You obviously have no idea of the extent of what Jagdeo did to Abi, or else you are deliberately trying to minimize it. I know her story is told on one of Sir David's pages, and I have heard it via personal e-mail as well. You wrote: But the intercourse part is what people think about, when the word pedophile is mentioned. This is not true, although it may be what YOU think about. Please, PLEASE, stop making excuses for Jagdeo's behavior based on the fact that you think actual intercourse did not take place. Can you imagine how this must feel to the women who were actually abused by him? It makes me pretty sick that you would try and exconerate Jagdeo in this way. I know you were abused personally, but that doesn't mean you are qualified to comment on whether other children who were sexually abused got 'hurt' or not on the basis what sexual acts were performed. It seems far more likely that you just cannot deal with the fact that one of Maharaji's mahatmas was a serial child molester and that NOTHING was done about to prevent his access to children. You have brought up the subject of child abuse on this forum many times, and each time, you have tried to minimize what Jagdeo did to these women. No matter WHAT Susan says, or anyone else says, you still persist in doing this. I can't help but feel that you don't listen to anything anyone says about this issue - in fact, I know that you and I have had this exact same conversation several times. I believe that this is a PERSONAL issue for you - and that it doesn't have much to do with Jagdeo at all. I ask you need to work out your feelings about this ELSEWHERE.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 12:35:03 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Katie Subject: And Bjorn... (FA's please read this!) Message:

If you do not stop obsessing about this topic on this forum, and if you continue to minimize or rationalize what Abi and Susan have said, I will ask for you to be blocked. Permanently. There are several other people on this forum who were the victims of sexual abuse as children and I can imagine how upsetting your posts must be to them. I also think you are harassing Susan because she has had the courage to speak up about this. I have defended you several times against being called a pedophile here (you have never mentioned this, by the way). I do not think you are a pedophile. I DO think you're obsessed with the topic of pedophilia and that you should NOT try to deal with this on this forum.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:57:07 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Katie Subject: And Kathie... Message:

Well, I am working through or trying to work through my sorrows due to what has happened to me here at the Forum. I am also working to forgive about what happended to me as a child. In my hours with my terapist yesterday, she kind of tried to minimize the damages I got as a child. And she said it was a good thing for me to try to work through things. However I agree that this is definitely not the right place and I realize the only thing I will experience here at this 'non-cultish' site will be pain. I am tempted to send you an email of the correspondances between me and Susan. BTW Susan attacked me, and it felt like a knife in my back. I did not really understand your support, but I thank you for your advices. Bye

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 15:15:50 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: And Kathie... Message:

Bjorn - (My name is Katie, not Kathie - no 'H', and it's pronounced 'KAY-TEE'.) I don't want to see a copy of the e-mails between you and Susan, reallly. And I do understand why she attacked you - Susan is my friend, and the things you are saying on here are hurting her, not to mention other people on here. Bjorn, this is just not the place to work out your feelings over being abused as a child OR being called a pedophile - if you want to do this on-line and feel that you need an 'understanding place', PLEASE look for another forum or Usenet group specifically devoted to that topic. You are not going to get what you want here.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 14:04:33 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: Jeezuz, I WAS right about Bjorn Message:

I truly believe this sick fucker IS indeed a pedophile. His own words condemn him.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 19:32:34 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

Bjorn, Child molesters hurt people. They hurt children. And Jagdeo certainly hurt Abi and Susan badly. And there were probably more children he hurt as well, and he had the opportunity to victimize children because of his status in Elan Vital. That's why child molestation is against the law and one goes to prison for it. Being heterosexual or homosexual hurts no one. In most civilized places neither is illegal because there is nothing inherently wrong with either. But by definition child molestation is harmful, criminal activity. It may be harder for people who have psychological problems and are sexually attracted to children, but that doesn't make it any less wrong. And for Maharaji and Elan Vital to be informed that a child molester was in their midst 23 years ago and to do nothing about it, and then, to be informed again last year and do nothing to bring Jagdeo to justice, is, in my opinion, 'harboring' a child molester, harboring a criminal and that's wrong, and anyone in Elan Vital is knows that is going on and does nothing about it, and even covers for it, like Marcia Leitner if that's what she did, is just as personally liable in my opinion, and that is not too harsh, no. Children, especially young children, are powerless against the predations of adults and deserve protection in a civilized society, and Elan Vital and Maharaji should be doing everything they can to prevent that from happening and not just trying to sweep it under the rug.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:02:42 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Joe Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

Joe I agree with you totally. But if you read my post, my point is that some hetros rape, some gays rape. My point is that, after talking to my terapist today, there are many pedophiles that do not harm children. And that the touching that happened to Abi Susan, according to what I talked about today with my terapist, probably did not harm their lives. Like most gays dont harm other people. If you said the word homosexuals in the fifties in my country, you thought about a person who would rape a child or another person. If you hear the word 'pedophile' today, you think of a person who is molesting or raping children. But what I was told, some people, just gets sexually exited. What society is doing is that the people with such tendencies instead of trying to solve their problems, go undercover.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 21:59:10 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

And that the touching that happened to Abi Susan, according to what I talked about today with my terapist, probably did not harm their lives. I dare you to take your above posts, my post, Abi's posts to your therapist. I think there are very few therapists that would say such a cruel insensitive thing, and that you hear what you want to hear. Say what you want about me, but NEVER NEVER minimize what happened to Abi you sick jerk. I wish I could ban you.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:09:51 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Susan Subject: Harsh Comments Message:

So here are 2 persons: Both has been sexually abused. One with touching by an adult, the other one by sexual intercours by an older relative. Pretty bad. They correspond. One of them searches for answers. One of thenm suffers, not only because he is falsely acused to be a pedophile himself, but he in fact sees the need to visit a terapist to repair the damages both he had as a child and in the experience of being wrongfully accused of being a pedophile. End of story; After an attempt to understand the truth, the one person says to the other: 'Say what you want about me, but NEVER NEVER minimize what happened to Abi you sick jerk. I wish I could ban you.'

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 00:55:45 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: You really are a sad fucker, Message:

I'd suggest coming back here AFTER you've had your threApy

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:54:34 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: You're gay??!! (nt) Message:

nnnnnnnn

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:47:44 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: And you thought you were the only one.... Message:

You aren't alone around here, Jim and there's Way, too, so now, there's three of us. Have you told Laurie? I'm sure she already knows, though. Women tend to be the first to know. Way and I get a toaster oven for having coverted you, so you will have to fill out a few forms so we can get out prizes. By the way, I find your hard-to-get attitude, hot, hot, hot.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 23:01:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Touche! .... er, hm, no, take that back! Message:

Cute Joe but, sorry, not cute enough.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 05:48:01 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:07:11 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: Just pointing out the gratuitous comment, Jim(nt) Message:

I'll have to pack some lovely curtains in with my next box to Jim. By the way Joe, Jim DID profess his love to M Dettmers, and two other guys recently on the forum. Maybe you are on to something!

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 18:26:51 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: the only one... ? I thought there was only ONE ... Message:

... of those. PS Has anyone mentioned to Lesley that 'Lotus-eater' might refer to M's feet? and incidentally, - me gay? To be honest, not since I discovered women. But it takes all sorts.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:30:18 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: cq Subject: okay CoQ au vin Message:

I always thought 'lotus eater' referred to people who went to the tropics and adopted a 'laid back' lifestyle. Like Gauguin etc and depicted in the movies with lots of sweat and a gin sling in hand. I live in the subtropics, in a valley by a creek, near to the ocean. Though we have taught the local children to swim for twenty years and managed the local swimming pool like a family affair, something we are proud of, and is now sorely missed by the community now that we have been dumped by the council, we still have managed to have a laid back lifestyle, now we are attempting to earn a living as artists!?! (yes you can laugh!) When I chose my moniker, it struck me as very funny because of the double entendre for a premie, kissing lotus feet and indulging in transcendental meditation practices. If I had known of the lesbian possibilities of the name, as you pointed out previously, I probably wouldn't have taken it, because I am not lesbian and it would have been false advertising! PS, nice to hear from someone who's heard of Adharanand. In our K sess, he asked the room (after 1 and a half days satsang) who had heard 8 satsangs or more, a few people went into the other room and then he conducted the session with all the rest of the people which included people I had told the night before, someone tripped out on acid, someone who was busy with his hare krishna beads, etc etc, about 40 of us I guess.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 18:36:31 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: You mean I've cooked my goose? Message:

Lesley, I may have led you up the garden path on this one (quite unintentionally though). Someone, somewhen, in the distant foggy fug of my perverse past, told me that 'Lotus Eater' was euphemistic for lesbian. Having done a bit of research since my last post to you, I'm inclined to doubt that. Like, for instance:   ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA Lotus-Eater Greek PLURAL LOTOPHAGOI, Latin PLURAL LOTOPHAGI, in Greek mythology, one of a tribe encountered by the Greek hero Odysseus on the Libyan coast, after a north wind had driven him and his men from Cape Malea. The local inhabitants, whose distinctive practice is indicated by their name, invited Odysseus' scouts to eat of the mysterious plant. Those who did so were overcome by a blissful forgetfulness; they had to be dragged back to the ship and chained to the rowing-benches, or they would never have returned to their duties. The Greeks called several non-narcotic plants lotos, but the name may have been used in this case for the opium poppy, the ripe seed pod of which resembles the pod of the true lotus. The phrase 'to eat lotus' is used metaphorically by numerous ancient writers to mean 'to forget,' or 'to be unmindful.' . . . and these: http://www.webcom.com/shownet/medea/bulfinch/bull29.html http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Poetry/Lotus.htm http://www.shadowfist.mudservices.com/faction/fac-lotus.html http://www.lotuseaters.net/jfkdad.shtml . . . So I might have been badly mistaken in my inference that your chosen posting name meant what I suggested. Oops. (Incidentally, I was having fun trying to imagine you, not as a lesbian, since your posts gave no indication that you were that way inclined, but more as some sort of 'eater of the Lotus-feet'. Which was an interesting picture. Like some sort of pirhana with a taste for lotus toes (with added cheese?) Ah well. I always thought the Maha should foot the bill. Forgive my misinformation (that is, if I have been misinformed) Perhaps this 'http://www.xenopharmacophilia.com/ee/caerulea.htm'is what it's all about.

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 15:15:57 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: great post Joe (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 16:25:03 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: All Subject: great posts Joe and Michael (nt) Message:

xxxxxxx

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 03:05:19 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: macquarie@ozepower.com.au To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned Message:

Dear Michael, Thank you for your post and your responses to questions. I also work as a private consultant in the arena of Organisation Development - I'll leave that for another time though after I get a minute to visit your site. I wanted to empathise, as much as one can on the internet, about getting vitriolic emails. My experience has shown that words alone can provoke very large emotional responses. At a time when I was getting more into responding on the ex-p forum I kept feeling shut down by some creep who remembered me from 15 - 20 years ago. He didn't actually shut me down but emotionally I didn't want to keep dealing with his responses to me. I imagine that emails such as the one you received, are a real piss-off as well as somewhat paranoia-making and possibly quite saddening. Anyway time to get on with my real work of writing a submission for work. Thanks a lot and cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 10:58:56 (GMT) From: [edited] Email: Black Gem- Weasel Will To: Peter Howie Subject: [edited] Message:

Scram, Catweasel. Your harrassing (often with threats) of Pete Howie amuses nobody but yourself. Forum Administrator

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:10:11 (GMT) From: [edited] Email: None To: Petey Subject: [edited] Message:

[edited]

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 17:54:36 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I've been warned Message:

Michael: You're demonstrating that even 'mature' people continue to learn. I've been trying to look around the next corner with a periscope, but perhaps I'll just take a short walk instead. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:05:57 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: On my own scale of human decency... Message:

Micheal has almost earned the maximum number of points and now rates immediately below Johnny Ghandi. Won't anyone dare to blackmail him for the pitbull will get back on its feet.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:54:16 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Yves Subject: Yves, please dont post till after coffee.-nt Message:

sfghs

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 19:57:20 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: bill Subject: Sfghs yourself Message:

I had coffee. What now? You despise me because I am paranoid. Is that it?

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 01:43:56 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Yves Subject: cmon Yves, Message:

I have read you since you got here and your post this morning looked a bit like it was before coffee. I was not one of your better posts. We all have our more focused moments. I couldnt understand your post! That is why I posted:)

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Date: Tues, Oct 17, 2000 at 20:40:19 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: bill Subject: Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke? Message:

'You despise me because I am paranoid?' Got it this once? It works better the other way around. 'It is because I am paranoid that I think you despise me.' Just a joke from a regular weirdo. By the way, you shouldn't worry too much about my feelings. I ain't got any of the kind which get hurt. That's what I got from being the teasing kind. Thanks for caring, but don't worry.

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 13:11:20 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Yves Subject: Thanks for the compliment. Did you get the joke? Message:

Hi Yves, I guess coffee was on my mind because I just quit a couple days ago and I am still waiting to feel ok! It does take a couple days of withdrawal when you have been a junkie for a while. People say 'did you have to?' They cant imagine a reason to quit. It does take some disipline, the stuff is everywhere!

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Date: Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 19:00:22 (GMT) From: Yves Email: None To: bill Subject: That being cleared, I love to argue. Message:

That being cleared, I love to argue and trade abusive insults with anyone who doesn't get easily offended. For lack of a better choice, I, from time to time, speak my mind about some 'villainous abominable misleader of youth' who gets offended as easily as Miss Piggy does.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 11:04:11 (GMT) From: U2? Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: It's a beautiful day. Message:

Ground Hog Day? Ghostbusters?

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 10:36:56 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Please explain to me, Micheal Message:

If a man talks about a person, and he says he is a really nice guy, - that is fine. And then later the same man talks about the same person and says he is a bad guy. What will be the conclusion? You cant know for sure if this person is nice or bad. But you will definitely know that the man who tells this is a liar. You wrote: 'Now I am being “warned” to do the safe thing as well. Back–off, they say, or we will make the lies that were spread about you on the ex-premie websites seem like kids play by comparison. Your playing with the “Boss” now Michael not some ex-premie losers'. I did not find this in the e-mail to you. Did you make it up? Or did I miss something? When did the one weirdo become 'we'? Are you aware of that Jean Michel once posted a 'recent satsang' by Maharaji from india. I think it was 'only' about 10 years old. Are you also aware of that if Anth would have acted 'not safe' there would have been a chance that Jagdeo could have been in prison or charged for touching Susan / Abi 20 years ago. You also wrote in your post: 'I would much rather be known as someone who come down on the side of those who exposed Maharaji and his cult for what it is, than to be thought of as the apologist whose silence was bought and paid for.' Even if you previously told the agreement had not any really important issues (i.e. no major scandals), it sounds to me now like your silence was bought and paid for, (not everyone sell themselves). So where does that place you: A person who sells himselves, then lies about it, lies about it again and then breaks a signed agreement. Thus someone can face the fact that you are a person they cant trust. Sorry, but whatever you tell now, you will lack credibility.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 15:29:43 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: God, Bjorn! Message:

If a man talks about a person, and he says he is a really nice guy, - that is fine. And then later the same man talks about the same person and says he is a bad guy. What will be the conclusion? You cant know for sure if this person is nice or bad. But you will definitely know that the man who tells this is a liar. I'm sorry fella but you really are shockingly stupid. Have you ever heard of someone changing their mind? Is that the same as lying to you? God, what an idiot!

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 13:05:17 (GMT) From: billorn Email: None To: Bjørn Subject: I disagree. Message:

You start and finish your post with talk about his credibility. After rereading your first part, it is clear that you didnt do your homework in reading and comprehending his posts and thier progress. He has worked on the credibility issue here and by now he has gained it with those of the forum that demand it the most. You had a chance to cover this issue earlier but now it is done.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 03:41:35 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: wow. Message:

I just got back from a much needed trip out of town and away from the forum. I am so sorry this happened to you Michael. I am so impressed with the way you are handling it though. I read it and shouted 'YEAH!!!!' and jumped out of my chair and punched the air. I am very proud to count you among my friends. Great, powerful post. I am all smiles. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2000 at 08:12:33 (GMT) From: bill (b) Email: None To: Susan Subject: 'wow!' was my first response also. Message:

'our lord' had a theory on 'fear'. He said 'fear turns to love'. He did and does run a fear based control empire and threats and withering blasts of verbal abuse and intensity are some of his 'tools' as he also put it.