Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 14:09:00 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Jondon: 'Sounds familiar' Message:

On Wed, Oct 18, jondon posted 'sounds familiar' Message: I found this today whilst having coffee and perusing the local fishwraps. It is awfully similar to stories I have heard here, both from the authors standpoint and the Master she followed. Seems as though there is only one way these kinda egomaniacal type can go. http://projo.com/cgi-bin/story.pl/yourlife/04391951.htm This link is no longer working, but it was 'Debbie's' account of her experience with Jim Jones and the People's Temple. I copied a bit of it, thinking of posting it. It seems relevent in this thread, so I'm hoping that Jondon can help find the link, or that Marianne knows where it can be found. Here is what I copied: Debbie's first steps across that line came when she met an articulate, handsome man in San Francisco who persuaded her to join the Peoples Temple. She was 17 at the time. Her first thought was 'Gosh, I don't know about this.' But Jim Jones had all the answers. 'Debbie, you know that's selfishness,' the father told her. That's what Jones called himself. The father. 'I know it's hard to give of yourself. It's hard not to see your mom and dad and it's hard not to go out and smoke with your old friends. But this is for the greater good of mankind, Debbie. Don't you think you could help the poor and the needy and give up that selfishness of yours?' Debbie explains what took her so many years and so much pain to finally understand. 'That voice inside me that Jim Jones told me was selfishness, that's your ability to reason. That's your conscience. When you're told to mute that, you've lost your inner compass. You become a blind follower.' Which is what Debbie became. Along with hundreds of others. You are special 'Jim Jones made every person who came to a meeting feel so special. We're all yearning for that,' Debbie tells me. Ironically, perhaps the grandest delusions belonged to the one who conceived them in the first place. According to Debbie, Jim Jones spun a web of lies around himself so thick eventually there was no way out. It's this end-justifies-the-means type of thinking that can color our perspective, make us do things, believe things. And the next thing you know, we've stepped over the line. A line that suddenly looks awfully thin and awfully blurry.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 22:40:20 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Marianne Subject: It could be worse Message:

There was that cult in Africa recently whose leader kept saying the world was going to end. Every time it didn't end the cult leader (a woman) put the date forward in order to keep the devotees faithful. After several of these false ends, the cult followers were getting restless and starting to revolt because they'd given all of their material possessions to their cult leader in the belief that the world would end soon. Finally, realising there really was going to be a revolt and that all her devotees would get wise to her and turn against her, the cult leader got all of her devotees into big barns which had been converted into 'churches' and told them to wait for the end of the world which was nigh the next day. She had all the barn doors locked so that all of the devotees were trapped inside and then she set fire to the barns and burned all of her devotees alive, every last one of them. She then did a runner with all of their money and is still at large today.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:03:52 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It could be worse Message:

David: She had all the barn doors locked so that all of the devotees were trapped inside and then she set fire to the barns and burned all of her devotees alive, every last one of them. She then did a runner with all of their money and is still at large today. The death penalty hardly seems adequate, does it? --Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 23:53:17 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: hardly adequate Message:

The death penalty does seem hardly adequate in cases like these. What about war criminals, serial murderers, sadistic rapist/killers, or extremely dangerous inmates that pose a threat to other inmates or have a history of escaping? While I don't believe in the death penalty as revenge and probably not as a deterrant, what about the money spent keeping these scumbags alive? The same money could be used to feed starving people, innoculate people against diseases, protect the environment, etc. Of course, one could say just raise more money, or spend less keeping the assholes alive, or somehow make use of their sorry lives. Or that executions make a statement that murder is justified sometimes, which may not be a good statement to make, that this outweighs any other issue involved. Or that it's just not right, period. But maybe it is justified sometimes, say to protect other people. Then there are cases where someone commits unpremeditated murder and the circumstances are involved. To turn around and murder them seems quite hypocritical. I don't know, I find it to be a moral dilemma in the most severe cases.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 15:07:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It could be worse: kinda like Waco, huh? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 23:04:27 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Sir Dave Subject: From the archives... 'THIS WAY ARMAGEDDON' Message:

A Guardian report I posted a couple of years back. Thanks indeed for Sir Dave's marvellous, as-yet-incomplete, but soon-to-be-unveiled Archive Search Engine (did that sound like a hint, btw..?) Sorry about the paragraphs. They seem to get scrunched in the archives. >>> The following report comes from The Guardian (UK), January 17. It is the first instance I am aware of, of a mass suicide waiting to happen (while it is at least still possible to dive in there and get the kids out...) I'll pass it on without further comment, save to describe the accompanying four photographs: (1) Shows Mount Teide - a volcanic heap without a single blade of grass, let alone a few trees to give an air of romantic quest. (2) Heide Fittkau-Garthe, the movement's guru. She looks a bit Judy Collins-ish: long-haired, cheeky sort of smile and dimple-cheeked. Your mother would approve. (3) A middle-aged lady cult member sitting in a police car, her face a picture of blissed-out abandon. She looks like a premie remembering 'The Word'. (4) A photo of a Solar Templar, dead and wrapped in a sheet. (start of Guardian article) > THIS WAY ARMAGEDDON Is this the road to hell? Members of a German cult which is determined to commit mass suicide on Mount Teide have been thwarted twice. Will it be third time unlucky? Special investigation by Rory Carroll with Adela Gooch in Madrid, Denis Staunton in Berlin and Jonathon Watts in Tokyo. 'Tonight, as the sun slides into the Atlantic and casts Tenerife into darkness, the men from Policia Local will flick on their headlights and trundle towards Mount Teide. The chatter from bars and pounding disco beats will fade into silence as their white Ford and Seat patrol cars begin ascending the 12,198ft volcano. Trees quickly thin out, leaving only a barren landscape on either side of the narrowing dirt track. The policemen will keep peering into the blackening gloom, looking for signs of life, fearing they will find only death. It is here that a doomsday cult has chosen to commit mass suicide. Come twilight, 13 men, 13 women and five children, members of a German cult, could emerge from the shadows around the summit and drink from drums of poison. If all goes according to plan, they will make a clearing among the rocks, lie down, close their eyes and slip away, leaving behind 31 corpses, shattered families and a catastrophe for the authorities. That is the grim outcome the Spanish police must now try to avoid. The challenge is not a theoretical one: on January 7, after months of monitoring, they did just that. Tipped off by Interpol, they raided an organic farm in Arafo, near Santa Cruz, the island's capital and arrested 32 cult members, some huddled in tents, just hours, it is thought, before a planned mass suicide. A 'last supper' with suspected poison was removed. Then last Monday there was a second alert when reports came through that some of the cult members had phones relatives back in Germany to say a final goodbye. This time the Spanish police took no chances and rounded up the group, now reduced to 16 adults and three children, and took them into protective custody overnight. But in Spain committing suicide is not an offence, and on Tuesday morning the group, all German except for one Spaniard, were released for a second time. They promptly piled into taxis and returned to Arafo, where the eyes of the world now watch, waiting for them to emulate the departed souls of Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, Waco and Jonestown. The police are desperate. The cult is law-abiding and entitled to go about its business without harassment. 'We can monitor the situation but we can't control people's will,' an officer involved in the case said. 'What do you do? Follow each person into bed, into the bathroom? That's impossible. But then, if they do succeed, who gets the blame...' A patrol car stand guard outside the farmhouse but 24-hour surveillance on individual members is impossible. And if they were spotted about to drink poison, what would the police shout? 'Stop or I shoot'? Not much of a threat when members believe the apocalypse is nigh and that an alien spaceship will land on the Teide volcano and take their souls to rebirth in the solar system of the star Sirius. So it has become a race against the clock. The end of the world, the cult believed, was due at 8pm sharp on January 8. It clearly didn't happen then. But how much longer will it be before the group tries, successfully, to commit collective suicide? Whether it comes to this hinges on one issue: do the 31 members really believe, without an ounce of doubt, that a spaceship will pick up their bodies? That the world is about to end? That God has taken human form in the portly body of a 57-year old German psychologist, Heide Fittkau-Garthe, their inspiration and leader? Yes, seems to be the answer. And they say it calmly, reasonably, without bulging eyes or foam at the mouth. Most are, after all, decent, university educated, middle-aged, middle-class Germans. Space cadets don't come more respectable. Their road to Mount Teide began in crowded halls around Germany where Fittkau-Garthe, a respected lecturer at Hamburg University and a TV pundit, gave seminars to captivated businessmen on management training, meditation and dealing with personal trauma. Unknown to most of her audiences, she drifted into the Indian Brahma Kumaris sect before leaving the university in 1993. Divorced, with a 21-year-old son, she developed a divine cult around her own person and called herself Aida, or the source. She recruited a hardcore of 25 disciples from her seminars and divided her time between Hamburg and Tenerife, where she owns the farmhouse at which the cult members were discovered last week. She told them the unresolved past of wandering souls was the source of all aggression. Cassettes recorded her ideas in a soothing voice against a background of synthesiser music. Neighbours in Tenerife described Dr Fittkau-Garthe as a pleasant woman who spent regular periods on the farm. She herself claimed her visitors were patients who had come to the Canaries for therapeutic rest. Enrique Torres, her lawyer, says members of the group were on holiday and denied any intention to commit suicide. In this account, Fittkau-Garthe is a humanitarian providing safe haven for abused women and people with psychological problems. But this fails to explain why, according to relatives of disciples, some members had begun by last year to call her God. Or why she said the world would end on January 8 and that she would protect them. Inspired by the Order of the Solar Temple, whose followers carried out mass suicides on Canada, France and Switzerland, they didn't intend to be among the doomed losers left on Earth. Sirius beckoned. It was simply a question of hitching a ride with aliens via ritual suicide. Beam me up potty, as the Sun said. And they're not even mad, or even necessarily gullible. According to some mental health professionals who study cults, they are just like us: worried at the direction society is taking, not sure what they want out of life and vaguely dissatisfied with job and family. Barry Hart, a clinical psychologist, says the typical cult member was often bright and had potential earning power - which is why they were recruited. 'It's the sons and daughters of people who read the Guardian, not the Sun. They turn their backs on orthodox religion but have needs for spiritual growth, a genuine search for meaning in life. Crazy people don't usually get into cults.' Dr Hart estimates that Britain contains up to 500 cults with up to 500,000 members. The approaching millenium is likely to swell that number. Neither coincidence nor cheaper rents result in so many cults locating in remote areas. Cut off from friends, family and the outside world, members become rationed to one source of information, the leader. Often with no TV, no radio, no newspapers, there is nothing to question the increasingly doom-laden world-view they are fed. Chris Soames did not quite fit the bill when he drifted into the London Church of Christ in 1990, but the Spanish police combing Mount Teide are unlikely to take comfort from his story: 'People think you become a slave with no mind of your own; that simply isn't the case. You have to be more active and believe what you are doing is right.' Despite retaining links with his family and resenting the oppressive hierarchy, Chris, who left the cult three years ago, was at one stage willing to die for it. 'We planned to smuggle [ourselves] into Iran to seek converts. If we were caught we would've been killed, but I didn't care because I felt absolutely sure we were right.' Such cast-iron certainty among cult members is what spurs the patrols around Mount Teide and makes Dr Hart pessimistic: 'The Spanish police will not prevent people killing themselves. If they want to do it, they'll do it.' Any lingering doubts in the cultist's minds about the wisdom of suicide are likely to have evaporated the moment they were arrested. A Roman battering ram persuaded 1,000 Jews at Masada to commit suicide in AD73. Fears that visiting congressmen heralded the break up of Jonestown prompted the Reverend Jim Jones and 914 followers to turn the Guyana jungle into their graveyard in November 1978. A law enforcement siege signalled a conflagration for David Koresh and his Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, in April 1993. Such precedents will hardly warm the hearts of the Santa Cruz police officers. The first glimpse of their blue shirts bursting in the door could have been confirmation to Fittkau-Garthe's disciples that exit from the cosmic set was finally set. The one ace held by police is Fittkau-Garthe herself. She remains in custody, charged with incitement to suicide, which is an offence under Spanish law. Unless she really is God she is not able to communicate with her cult. Conditioned to obedience and dependency, what do they do now? Stick with plan A and head for Mount Teide? Sit tight and wait? Get a good lawyer? Some reports say half of the sect have returned to Germany. But even if true the remnants, judging by precedent, remain a serious liability to Tenerife's fun-loving reputation. Jehovah's Witnesses have stayed loyal through several false Armageddons. More worrying still, many followers of the Aum Supreme Truth cult have rallied to their imprisoned leader, Shoko Asahara, since the 1995 Sarin gas attack on a Tokyo subway, and more than a third of those members put in prison have returned to the cult, fearful that they would go to hell if they remained outside it. Heaven's Gate, whose members committed suicide en route to a spaceship trailing the Halle-Bopp comet, is back in business recruiting on the Internet. So tonight policemen will resume their vigil on top of Mount Teide. Standing amid the rocks and boulders, the archipelago splayed out below will melt into the darkness from 7pm as lights from bars and discos begin to glimmer. Even in winter Sirius, a solar system away, can be seen clearly. Tenerife's tourist board says it looks very pretty.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 21:27:00 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Another great post Marianne. Keep taking those vitamins! I was also reminded of a fairly recent made-for-TV drama called 'Fire on Mount Carmel' - the inside story of the pre-seige Waco cult. How in the latter days David Koresh started calling himself the 'Dirty Messiah' - being the only one among them who could take on all the sinful desires of his followers and act them out on their behalf. (Yeah, right....) Thus, his male followers were forced to become celibate whilst their wives (and their borderline-adolescent daughters - yuk!) were enticed to share their sexual favours with the cult boss. And they obliged. Same compliance/obedience/conformity processes which click-in wherever you have an 'enclosed' community (physically or psychologically) whose faith in the Master is total.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:25:44 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Marianne Subject: The Day after Jonestown. Message:

It was a Sunday Morning. I remember the big newspapers at the desk at the Community Center at 17th and Emerson in Denver. The big headlines and the horrific images. And I remember the dialogues (inter- and intra- personal). Would you kill yourself if Maharaj Ji told you to? The stock answer, of course, was that he wouldn't! 'Yes' would sound fanatical, and 'No' would sound way under-surrendered. But, nevertheless, I remmber feeling a strangely disquieting undercurrent that morning. I think a lot of us realized, at some level, that we WERE in a cult. Benign, but only insofar as cults went.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 23:32:22 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: Gregg Subject: The Day after Jonestown. Message:

I remember that day too. I was at a 'retreat', in Kauai, headed by Jagdeo. He'd been giving heavy satsang all week and the devotion trip was at its peak. Then the news broke. I'm not sure how we found out because there were no TV's or radios being used. But somehow Jagdeo learned about it and informed us. Then he gave a long satsang (lecture) on how false prophets will appear but that they're manifestations of mind. I'm pretty sure Jagdeo didn't get a chance to spend any time alone with children that week.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:54:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

Good post, Marianne. The funny thing is I used to proudly distinguish our group from 'cults' on the basis that we were straight up and honest. Why not? We had nothing to hide. Plus we were all brothers and sisters and that had to count for lots, I figured.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:31:04 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

St James, I know you might have been sensitive because of that Nigel thread of a week ago. I didnt read the thread because I cant hear criticism of you. I am not professing love here, or offering valentines like you so freely gave out recently to PREMIES on the forum! And I wont mention the L word you used in Mike Dettmers direction. I have a blind spot to any greviences about you voiced by others because of your fine work here. And your help when I first got here. So when Anonomousie shows up, I dont give a shit about how others think about it or how you might think it makes you look. I do it to roast you and cmon, did you laugh at that golf thing or not. I dont even care if newbies know the story of how you created her and disposed of her. I dont care if they misunderstand. You made her fiesty and she lives. SO, dementia aside, at least say fuck you but dont say nothing!

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:01:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: bill Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

Bill, OF COURSE I liked the post. What's not to like? I mean, of course, of course. Thanks,

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Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 03:23:48 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

At the time, I thought I would get you really laughing. Maybe it is too hard, or harsh, but then again, scorned woman and all that. A tip of the hat for your M Dettmers efforts. I guess you've earned another box.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:29:35 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

A chilling correlation there, Marianne. Of course, what's even more chilling is that a similar course of events could lie in store for the Maha. I was there in Poona when Rajneesh said that 'Jonestown could never happen here'. Little did I suspect that, just a few years down the line, he would have a Waco-like community (only larger) armed to the hilt, provoking the local populace and claiming that the stockpiling of armaments was a justified precaution against their (i.e. the rest of the world's) 'prejudice'. Remember that story of the premie who was proud to say she would cut off her own head for Maharaji? It might be a contradiction in terms to call her ilk 'die-hards' (since they, apparently, were so willing to embrace death). But I'm sure there are some 'die-hards' around the Maha who'd love to prove their belief-system to be right. Even at the cost of their own life, if necessary. I wonder - is that kind of death-wish only confined to cultist behaviour? Anyway, a very interesting post from you, Marianne, and thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:04:21 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Another great post, Marianne Message:

Thanks again. I really appreciate your posts, and your ability to integrate the revelations about Maharaji with your personal experience with the People's Temple. The scariest thing about the People's Temple incident for me is that the people who were involved were just like me or you. I would like to think that I would have been smart enough to see through Jim Jones, but I know, by experience, that I wouldn't have been. This is frightening. Personally, the 'X-rated' stuff reminds me of the concept of 'family secrets' - I am sure you know what that is! - and I think that is why people get sucked into it so easily. So many of us grew up in families where we were so loyal to our family members that we didn't talk about certain things outside the home (including alcoholism, abuse, and so forth.) And, of course, there is so much harm done by perpetuating these secrets. Love to you, Marianne, and thanks again - Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:27:34 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: I've been X-rated once in the 70s at the rez Message:

now that I think about it. And I tell you I was feeling incredibly blessed to have such a chance at that time. Honestly that was a lot of fun. I was doing service at the residence during a program in Montpellier. And I heard m imitating a donkey for his kids ! First I thought that was a real donkey !! Now that I think about it, I wonder ...... I didn't have a chance to see or hear much, because I was hidden somewhere near the reception of the hotel, and my duty was to pick up the phone in case somebody was asking for him when, he was not there. The whole hotel had been booked for him and his family.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:29:28 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: and also during the instuctors trainings Message:

of course. That was part of the contract. And I saw him drink more than I thought anyone could take, and smoke cigars .....

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:53:28 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Marianne: I've read Michael Dettmer's threads and all the subsequent posts in which he revealed the reality of 'X-rating' and other things. I've just read you post here and all the subsequent posts as of 11:44 am EST, by my computer clock. My immediate reaction is: Oh shit! Goddammit! My second reaction is: Please send me your e-mail address or else I would like to chat with you as we did once before if you have some time. Thank you. shp

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 18:34:30 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: shp Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

There it is.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:27:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Marianne Subject: great post Marianne Message:

I think that the 'x rating' post was one of the most disturbing things I had ever read about the cult. I know that I too felt a little like I had been punched in the gut when I read it. I had heard the term before, but it had not clicked what it meant. It reminds me a little of finding out a long time ago ex spouse had an affair. I also think it explains to an extent how Randy and Judy can 'not recall' what I told them about Jagdeo. Everyone around the guru is indoctrinated into their new life around the guru with promises of secrecy and protecting him. Lying about Jagdeo is just another lie. In exchange they get to be the special, chosen ones, the insiders, sit up close, in the '70s they had nicer things....in exchange for their souls it seems. Is this seeming a little like 'rosemary's baby'? Here is one conspiracy that was very real, not a theory. I think the PAMs were cult victims too, really in a more vile way than the rest of us. Part of their test of loyalty was to agree to lie to the rest of us. In exchange they got to live a life of privledge. They got to feel like the chosen ones among the chosen ones. In exchange for their integrity. No wonder so few have spoken up here. A lot more to face for them than the rest of us.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:59:25 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

A premie/AmText employee once said to me in justifying his continued commitments to M, 'It's not like he's asking me to pack up everything and go off somewhere far away to live or something.....though....I dunno....I probably would.'

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Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 10:30:14 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Marianne I must admit that the I find this 'X' rating business VERY disconcerting myself, more so than the other issues generally discussed on the forum. Certainly, at the very least, it undermines any sense of trust that is explicitly fostered in the process of preparing for Knowledge and is expected to remain in place afterwards. Clearly there is an issue of double standards here. The other issue that concerns me is the apparent chronic use of alcohol and drugs, not as a moral issue, but more in the context of brain deterioration in relation to long term use and an ability to be able to think clearly. Certainly, any instruction given by Maharaji, would have to take into consideration this potential disability at the very least. I must also admit, that like Bjorn. SHP and others , I have had very positive and peaceful experiences in the presence of Maharaji, not hyped or hysterical in the 'Bhole shri' context, but more in the restful sense of the experience of 'holy name'. (Not to mention experiences of Darshan - indescribable) The contradiction between this experience and the common sense alarm bells that ring when reading MD's posts are something rather confusing for me, because most things about this seem to function on an instinctive level. Anyway, it's time to re-evaluate some things, I suppose Mel

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:40:07 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Let's call a spade a spade Mel. It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org. Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. Others aren't so politically inclined but see 'standing up to Maharaji' as breaking a taboo they are now convinced was an oppressive force in their life. The fact they survive their over-the-top derision of Maharaji without going to hell feeds their bravado and drives them to flaunt their disrespect for this person they once revered. It is the same mentality that fueled the citoyen's untethered use of the guillotine after the monarchistic icons of France were toppled during the French revolution. Such is the nature of republican tyanny. So what is it Mel? Is it the student's place to judge the Master? If so does the student use the same standard to judge him as applies to the student? On the topic of Knowledge, does the student know what he or she needs? Is what the student needs the same as what the Master needs? These questions are at the heart of the argument. First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master. Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today. But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. But what ex-premie republicans hope is that there really isn't someone like Maharaji who can offer the real goods. If there was, they would have to cede their imagined political standing in the universe to another human being. It would also mean they would have to admit they failed as a premie - failure is a difficult pill to swallow. The world has seen examples of charlatans who misused the respect they were given by their followers. Ex-premies attempt to paint Maharaji in the same same hue as these charlatans who profit from deception. To this end they seek every opportunity to spin historical and current events to support their beliefs. It is so clear this is what has happens here at ex-premie.org. Michael Dettmers, though I believe missed the point on the crux of the matter, has cleared up a lot of the fantasy created by the republican ex-premie conspiracy theorists. Most accept his disclosure, but only after he came out as being against Maharaji. Others still think he's holding back because, instead of painting a picture of the demonic madman they want to believe Maharaji to be, he describes a clear thinking man in charge of a difficult situation, attempting to do the impossible. He himself waffles between sentiments of Maharaji not accepting responsibility for certain matters in a way he believes is appropriate and respect for his 'remarkable qualities'. For me, Maharaji is incredibly special. Not because I believe him to be but because he knows what I need to be happy, and has demonstrated that at every encounter with him. So I therefore choose not to judge him. I'll accept that the ex-premies' needs are different than mine. That I'll accept. But damned if I'm going to let one of them try and impose their values on me. My need is to be a student. Why? Because learning and growing is the only reason I see to be here. And the existence of the Master means the possibility to grow will never die. Even if mistakes I've made wreak devastation upon my life, there is always hope because there is a Master. And yes, as a student I recognize that my Master knows better than me what I need to keep growing. Ultimately the reasons he chose to hide his lifestyle from us was, I believe, for our benefit. As I see it, it is no different than a parent hiding their personal life from their children. There is a time and a place for everything. We were children in the '70s and 80s. Now that we've matured, it is extremely unfair to judge ourselves or Maharaji for what transpired. But for the people who cannot find value in their life as a premie, judging him now is the only satisfaction they can wring out of all those years. All I can say is let them judge away if it makes them feel better. Personally their judgements will never shake my resolve to support my Master for the good he has brought to this world. And that good will not be tarnished by the ignorance and hatred of a hand-full of confused people who look for someone other than themselves on whom to blame their pain.

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Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 09:11:52 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Turner Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

HOOEY!!!

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:59:22 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Turner Subject: Good god - are you for real, Turner? Message:

I read your post last night and was absolutely astounded by it. I can tell you that the premies who run 'Enjoying Life with Knowledge' would NEVER let something like what you wrote be printed for public consumption. However, from what Susan has posted, I guess you are for real - and I also think you are lucky that you have this forum to express these extreme views. Jim's done a pretty good job on dissecting your entire post (and Mel has provided a good 'premie' answer) so I just want to make a few comments. You wrote: It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org. You are correct that this is the crux of the matter - IMHO, anyway. I'm just surprised that you even brought this up. Most of the premies on here excuse Maharaji's behavior by saying things like 'Hey, I have money, too' or 'Hey, I like to have a drink sometimes, too.' What you imply is that Maharaji can do anything he wants because he's not really a human being and as such, has no moral laws to follow. To me, this is really scary. You also wrote: Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. I hate to disillusion you, but this is in the US Constitution, and is not exactly what I'd call a minority view. For your sake, I hope you live in a monarchy or dictatorship of some sort. The Constitution goes on to say that all people are entitled to 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' insofar as it doesn't interfere with other people's rights to same. I try to act in accordance with this view in my daily life, and I think that most of the other people who post here (whether premies or ex-premies) do too. You also wrote: First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master. Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today.But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. Let me ask you this - if you are so 'unequal' to the Master and have to completely accept him without judgement - how can you even give yourself credit for knowing that this person IS the Master. What you have said above is a rationalization for every dictatorship, reign of terror, and genocide that has ever happened in the world. All were perpetrated by people who convinced other people to discard their own judgement because those people 'knew better'. I find your views to be extremely frightening. I hope that other premies do not share them.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 21:22:44 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Turner Subject: Please climb down for a minute, Turner Message:

Turner I was at quite a loss as to how to reply to your post, because even as “premies” it appears that we probably have quite divergent views. Firstly, I disagree with your very definite views on the “acceptances” that come with the “master/student” relationship. To me my “student” relationship with Maharaji is basically quite simple - he shows me how to practice and provides the inspiration to continue and enjoy the experience, and I practice. There are no additional conditions on the relationship as far as I am aware despite what you imply when you say …” as a student I recognize that my Master knows better than me what I need to keep growing.” Your dismissal of the “ex” premie motivation as political or merely revolutionary is extremely superficial. I don’t know if you have a wide experience in dealing with people, but my general view is that if there is there is angry criticism on a matter, then it is best to listen because there is usually a legitimate cause. My belief is that there are matters to be addressed here and there is very little listening going on. There is a deep hurt here that may not be able to be rectified but certainly cannot be ignored, surely you can acknowledge that much at least. Mel.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:52:58 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Turner Subject: rrnphhh.... ...uggle... Message:

....fnyurkk....ergh...(choke)... urnk.. hyurghle... mmph ... ppphhhhwwwoaaarrahahahaha ... HAHAHAHAHA .... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 18:56:05 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Turner Subject: 'Extraordinary Man' Message:

... It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. 'a cut above'? This reminds me of the character Raskolnikov in 'Crime and Punishment', who fancies himself to be an 'Extraordinary Man'. He commits murder in an attempt to show himself that he is 'Extraordinary'. In the case of Prem Rawat, he has also deluded others into thinking he is such a person. In the topsy-turvy world of an 'Extraordinary Man', crime and vice are presented as virtues, lies as truths, cruelty as kindness, stealing as giving, and weaknesses as strengths. If you haven't judged (i.e. evaluated) him, how could you possibly know if he is a 'Master'? How do you define 'Master', what criteria do you have for someone being a 'Master'? Without any criteria, it is a totally meaningless term. Do you think he's a 'Master' (whatever that means) just because he says he is?

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 15:53:03 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Turner Subject: Damn strange post Turner Message:

Do I know you? I have this feeling I know you. Is this representative of current year 2000 insider premie think? String together a bunch of jargon, spit it out and think you have made some sort of point? Or maybe you are a year 2000 Bongo? So, this I need a Massa thing is alive and well? You need him ( oops, Him ) to tell you what it is you need to grow and be happy. You can't judge him, nor can we, because he is after all the Master. Sounds like you would drink the Kool Aid. After all, he does know what you need to be happy.

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 16:07:41 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: another Turner post ( in case anyone forgot) Message:

Turner seems to be brought out of the woodwork by Michael Dettmers posts. I think Turner doth protest too much... Turners response to Dettmers: Michael You, who admittedly enjoyed the opportunity as a young man to affiliate with Maharaji on a personal level; who not so long ago still 'loved and respected' him for his many 'remarkable qualities', sit in judgement on him now on something that happened completely out of today's context. What does smoking dope have to do with whether or not Knowledge is true. Michael get real. Of course the ashrams protected people from the dangers of drugs. I personally knew a number of people, as I'm sure did you, who God knows where they would have ended up if not for the protection afforded by the ashram during those years. I was one of them. The fact that you all apparently partook of smoking dope with him in what you surely must have felt was a protected environment in no way diminishes the real potential danger the ashrams protected people from. Rules are for people who are not free. When freedom comes, the rules can go. Perhaps he thought you guys were free enough. You got to see behind the rules and potentially better understand the spirit of his message. But look at you today. Total amnesia! If you wanted a 'master' that was an up-tight ashram devotee just like you, you should have joined the Krishnas. Old A.C. seemed to me like a pretty upstanding example of their dogma. Michael you have done the most natural thing someone who stops believing in Maharaji does. Turn against him. Without an experience of Knowledge, what else could a logical person do? After you have purged yourself of any fond memories of your life as a premie; after you have let the passage of time diminish the poiniency of his words, what else could an honest, thinking person do but turn against him? That's fine. It just troubles me to see someone I used to respect from a distance resort to using stupid tit-for-tat arguments like 'he smoked dope so that nulifies the protective nature of the ashram'. That's just really dumb. The fact is Michael the ashrams did protect people from a lot of things during a period in their lives when they arguably not only needed it but wanted it. It provided an environment where they were free enough from such distractions where they could focus on knowing themselves. You see not all of us were free when we were 24 years old. It wouldn't work for me today, so I daren't judge my past by my current standards. I'm surprised you have stooped to doing just that. T

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Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Turner Subject: Hi Turner Message:

Let's call a spade a spade Mel. It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. Right of the bat, you fuck things up with some kind of ditzy bait-and-switch. You pose a relatively reasonable sounding question -- should Maharaji be judge by the same standards as his students? -- but 'answer' it with the radical, classic cult that 'obviously' Maharaji is a 'cut above' [his students] who are unworthy to judge him by any standard. What does this show? I don't know. That you're trying to varnish your absurd cult thinking with a patina of reasonablenes? This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org. No it isn't. The general consensus on the forum, I'm sure, is that Maharaji should indeed be judged and judged by the same moral standards we'd apply to each other generally. That's a given. Yes, premies try to argue that there's an 'interesting question' out there somewhere as to whether or not people should bbe judging him at all, but that's a dead issue for exes. Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. Being 'created equal' is not to say that everyone's cirucmstances are equal and identical such that no one's raises unique issues or warrant special consideration. Others aren't so politically inclined but see 'standing up to Maharaji' as breaking a taboo they are now convinced was an oppressive force in their life. I guess you think you're having a little fun here. Well, your post IS fun, that's what I like about it so much. It was hard to tell, at first, if you're even for real, this would be such a great parody of crazy premie thinking. But I seem to recall you posting before. Those posts weren't particularly funny, if I recall, so I'm assuming this is legit. Stupid, pompous but legit. Ex's discussion about Maharaji never even touches on political theory. I guess you can still access some brain cells storing your high school civics memories. Good for you that you can remember anything this late in the game. It's all silly but, like I say, fun. The fact they survive their over-the-top derision of Maharaji without going to hell feeds their bravado and drives them to flaunt their disrespect for this person they once revered. Maybe I'm paranoid but I can't help but read an assumption in that sentence that people should not disrespect people they once revered. Am I wrong? Premies say this kind of thing all the time. As if they never heard of changing one's mind. Funny thing is, we try to tell them why we've changed our minds and they don't want to discuss those reasons. Not fully, that's for sure. Crazy. It is the same mentality that fueled the citoyen's untethered use of the guillotine after the monarchistic icons of France were toppled during the French revolution. Such is the nature of republican tyanny. You sure about this? If there's one thing you can unequivocally say about this site it's that it neither encourages nor tolerates any threats of physical violence against anyone, even our former cult leader. Rather, we enjoy this forum wherein we can analyze, consider, ridicule, and challenge -- verbally -- the man and his so-called 'teaching'. Sounds like that kind of unfettered dialogue is very, very alien to what you're used to, especially, I'm guessing, when it concerns your cult leader. Look, I'm just trying to help here. You don't have a better explanation for saying something so stupid, do you? So what is it Mel? Is it the student's place to judge the Master? If so does the student use the same standard to judge him as applies to the student? I guess you forgot how you derailed that discussion yourself as soon as you started it. Not to worry, I'm sure we all know what you mean. On the topic of Knowledge, does the student know what he or she needs? Is what the student needs the same as what the Master needs? These questions are at the heart of the argument. Okaaaaayyyyyyyy, I'm just a little leery of what you're going to do to these questions. But we'll see. Maybe there's something to talk about yet. Hopefully, nothing as bizarre (or insulting) as your guillotine analogy. First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Not so fast, buddy! Not so fast at all! For I say that, if you do 'buy into this Master/Student thing' you better start defining and explaining it. After all, we're dealing with a very unique phenomenon, to say the least. So what the fuck is it? Really, what exactly, as best you can say, is it? What is that thing? You simply have to answer that and answer it well before you can proceed in any intelligent fashion acting on that assumption. But premies don't think like that, do they? Words are used to encourage slavish devotion and discourage any other kind of thinking, especially analysis, real analysis. For example, who says that, even if, for argument's sake only, one accepts 'that Master / Student thing', who says that necessarily means that the Master 'knows what the student needs to grow'? Isn't that an open issue, something worth even a little discussion? I mean, just a little, Turn ol' buddy? But here you've brushed by it like, like, well like a shady car salesman, come to think of it! Relax, Turner, let your customer relax a bit too. Let Mel do his own thinking a bit, huh? You're not anxious about this, by any chance, are you? Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master. All I can say is ditto, ditto, ditTOOOO! Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today. But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. That's it? That's IT?? That's all you've got to say to, say, a lonely atheist like myself who thinks that all so-called avatars, God-men, prophets and Holy Mothers weren't anything but regular human beings? You say 'the fact is' but I'm sorry, Turner, we got to talk about this one. I think there's a bit of an issue here, myself. Again, relax, it looks like you're trying to close a sale or something. Don't skate over obvious issues pretending they don't exist. Somehow it doesn't make you look good. But what ex-premie republicans hope is that there really isn't someone like Maharaji who can offer the real goods. If there was, they would have to cede their imagined political standing in the universe to another human being. It would also mean they would have to admit they failed as a premie - failure is a difficult pill to swallow. Well you gotta be fair about this, Turn. For one thing, not all exes think alike on this issue. Some (regrettably, in my opinion) do, in fact, believe in the existence of 'someone like Maharaji' (by that, I assume you mean an 'avatar', you tricky, tricky guy, you!). But most, I agree, don't. The thing is, though, these latter 'republican [small 'r')' exes don't just 'hope' such avatars aren't possible, they believe that to be the case. Better still, they have reasons for thinking as they do. And no, their reasons are not at all the pathetic, little scrap you've thrown up -- fear of having 'failed' as a premie. Nice try, eh? Sheesh! The world has seen examples of charlatans who misused the respect they were given by their followers. Ex-premies attempt to paint Maharaji in the same same hue as these charlatans who profit from deception. To this end they seek every opportunity to spin historical and current events to support their beliefs. Well there you go again, mentioning issues only to skate around them. Why not settle in to a simple, fair heads-on analysis? You already acknowledge the existence of frauds in the 'field', how you gonna tell them from the real McCoy's? Exe's efforts, whatever they might be, are beside the point. The analysis focusses on Maharaji. He's the subject, not the exes. But then premies can't really have tht conversation. Not honestly, anyway. Okay, carry on. It is so clear this is what has happens here at ex-premie.org. Michael Dettmers, though I believe missed the point on the crux of the matter, has cleared up a lot of the fantasy created by the republican ex-premie conspiracy theorists. 'Conspiracy theorists'? You mean you're just going to throw a term like that out with no explanation or discussion? What conspiracies