Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 18:04:28 (GMT) From: Sanford Pass Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Hi Michael...more questions to answer please.... Message:

Michael, I have been away and am just getting caught up reading here. I do freelance video camera work and spent the last four days at the Plaza in NYC. Surrounded by all that opulance, many thoughts - not covetous, but curious - and some questions came to me, some of which I am posing to you below. I have appreciated your lucid and consicse remarks. They are a welcome ingredient in this very emotionally wrenching exprience of soul-searching and examination of the teacher-student relationship all present have had or are having with Maharaji, regardless of social positon, PAM, X, or any other worldly status. This touches all of us in the most personal and vulnerable spot, more personal than anything physical, mental or emotional. We gave up our hearts, our lives, our trust. In light of that, money is not the primary issue, however I do realize how important money is in this world. The internal entanglements surrounding all this are unbelievably intricate and sensitive once exposed to the bright light sincere and honest scrutiny. Forgive me if I missed something you have already said, but what I would like your feedback about is this: Given that Maharaji has connections who can very successfully multiply wealth (his/ours), has he shared THIS Knowledge with ANY premies at all, even his 'inner x circle'? There are those outside of that realm who could really use help to understand how to even survive in this world, make a decent living, have a decent shelter, get their kids insured, through college (just like his kids), pay the bills, etc., get to programs, purchase his advertising specialty items for his mission, let alone buy yachts and all the rest, not that there's anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld would say. I recall an old saying, 'You can't tell a hungry man about God' or 'To a hungry man, God is a piece of bread.' There are many hungry premies all over the world, maybe young inexperienced souls, maybe they blew it and screwed up, whatever...no judgement on anybody. One of my most vivid memories of going to festivals in Miami when I lived there was that sometimes I'd be the guy sitting on the concrete with my hand out for help to get in, an sometimes I'd be the guy in the suit and the person I would help out would be the one who was in the suit when I was down. Lessons learned, but no need to re-learn this over and over worldwide as I see it. Seems to me EV could be or could have been a point of dowloaded information from Maharaji and his investors and advisors to premies to assist in the nuts and bolts of life, just like at a festival, where to stay, eat, financial assistance, etc. this could have actually helped the premie businesses and everyone would have benefitted. A life preserver without a rope attached can save a life, but then it just bobs around on the waves, never drawn to shore. That's how Knowledge feels now, like OK, I've got this very intense and tangible experience within me that I know is real and connects me to myself and peace, but I am drifting like everyone else out here, trying to 'make it' in the physical world. Do you know why he never encouraged or helped needy premies to get smarter and richer? It would have made him richer besides, if premies had more to give. So it doesn't add up, as so many things seem not to on this beautiful fall day. It feels like a new caste system has been established, not based on birth or blood but cold hard cash, crossing all cultural, racial and social barriers. Doesn't feel good at all, money being the bottom line in the realm of premies and Maharaji. Caste is caste, whatever it is based on. I understand that's how the world is, but it is so sad and disheartening to see it happening among people who have come for so much more than that. As for the 'smart card' and EV's use of it to facilitate transactions for programs, do you have any knowledge of the impending 'cashless society' and all that it entails? Are you familiar with the subtle 'Pandora's box that the smart cards are connected to? I have heard over and over that EV runs itself and Mahraji has nothing to do with its day-to-day activities. This simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever. Here he is out to save the world and he is not directing the organization that represents him in any way? Is the Board of Directors of EV going to vote down or disagree with someone who is embedded in their psyche to be the Word made flesh? I find this very hard to take. Is it said just for legal reasons or what? Yeah, I can see EV deciding who is going to staff the booth at the next festival or something like that, but as for the real decisionmaking, what is up? I know noble and holy people who are struggling financially and I know some real jerks who are loaded. I would have thought that in the 'premie world' valuable information that could make the inner wealth of Knowledge be manifested physically (on earth as it is in Heaven) would be shared by all, not just by the teacher and a few close associates. Your experience and comments? Sanford PS - A Note to Silent Observers I would bet what little money I have that EV and others are monitoring this site, and to those of you who fit this description I ask the same questions I am asking Michael, with all due respect to all readers, whoever you are and whatever your station, whether it's you Maharaji, sitting in one of your mansions or sophisitcated vehicles to which you may well be entitled, or whether it's a bleary-eyed, exhausted premie doing service in some studio apartment surrounded by overdue bills with devotional music playing. I know I speak not only for myself but for many many sincere people who feel very (temporarily) disempowered and disoriented in life by all of this. But we are getting our strength back. Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger I have heard. May we all be made stronger by our search for the truth of our own lives and those we allowed in so close to us. I call from the depths of my being in the presnece of witnesses, from the place where Knowledge itself dwells within me, upon all that is holy and true in the universe, to once and for all clear the confusion and bring clarity and accurate information, not just for me but for all present who are in suffering and who have questions and scars from the past and present, knowing that my call is being heard way beyond cyberspace and anyone who may be reading these words. So be it. I ask this in the presence of witnesses and in the conscious presence of the Holy Name, trusting in the promise that whatever I ask in in the spirit of the Holy Name will come to pass. No worries. Sincerely, Sanford Pass

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 18:55:06 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Sanford Pass Subject: Poor, sweet, deluded fools that we were ... Message:

Sandy, I know you want Michael to reply, but while you're waiting, may I offer this: Your post has all the hallmarks of being heartfelt, but I guess the divide between the attitudes of those who still respect Maharaji and those of us who don't, makes communication a touch difficult at times. Yup, I remember thinking similarly about him. I, too, accepted the culture of belief in his divinity, his purpose, his ... magnanimity, for spreading 'Knowledge' to the world. It was a cause to believe in. It could have really made a difference. There's a massive gulf between how I viewed all this as a premie, and how it now appears. Now it's all too easy to mock the beliefs and dependency that still surround M. But you sounded like you wanted your post to be taken seriously, so I'll respond in the spirit that was intended. You say: 'I have heard over and over that EV runs itself and Mahraji has nothing to do with its day-to-day activities. This simply does not make any sense to me whatsoever. Here he is out to save the world and he is not directing the organization that represents him in any way?' It is your belief that he is 'out to save the world'. Are you strong enough to entertain the possibility that you just might be mistaken here? 'Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger' - well it sounds like wisdom, until you realise that such a generalisation can be abused, and for all the wrong reasons. Wasting the opportunity of getting on with our own lives, and of finding our own priorities - that doesn't kill us. But no way does it make us stronger. 'May we all be made stronger by our search for the truth of our own lives' yup, you'll need strength and inner reserves when you find the courage to look at Maharaji as he really is, not just as how you want to see him. Good luck, Chris

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 21:29:16 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: cq Subject: And fools rush in...da da da da da da Message:

Your post has all the hallmarks of being heartfelt, but I guess the divide between the attitudes of those who still respect Maharaji and those of us who don't, makes communication a touch difficult at times. -cq I will make an agreement with you and anyone else here. I will agree to be peaceful and respectful in my talk with you and do my best to relate with you using all the light I have at any given here and now to be as honest as my spirit and conscience direct me to be. I have no quarrel with you personally and you don't have one with me either. You have a quarrel with Maharaji, I caught wind of it a bit over a year ago here and wanted to know wazzup and here we are. How's that? -shp Yup, I remember thinking similarly about him. I, too, accepted the culture of belief in his divinity, his purpose, his ... magnanimity, for spreading 'Knowledge' to the world. It was a cause to believe in. It could have really made a difference. -cq I believe he has made a positive difference for those who practice Knowledge, regardless of anything we talk about here. -shp It is your belief that he is 'out to save the world'. Are you strong enough to entertain the possibility that you just might be mistaken here? -cq Remember the film that was produced including clips of Maharaji arriving in America and being interviewed in the early years over here? One question was about bringing peace to the world and he answered, 'Yes, as a matter of fact I am doing that right now!' To me, it was an like inside joke that he was in Holy Name and that is the Only Way that Knowledge of God and Peace will ever become reality in this world, when individuals experience it within first. Then there are those who are awaiting Armageddon, the Rapture, the Big It, etc as foretold in many holy books from many places. Far as I'm concerned, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand (here and now, always, that's where it is, nowhere else, not past or future. Here Now is where we are on the cosmic mall map. We are Here. We are Now. We aren't yesterday or tomorrow. Yadda yadda, I'm preaching to the choir, ain't I? Sorry about that. -shp 'Whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger' - shp well it sounds like wisdom, until you realise that such a generalisation can be abused, and for all the wrong reasons. Wasting the opportunity of getting on with our own lives, and of finding our own priorities - that doesn't kill us. But no way does it make us stronger. -cq Anything can be abused. Peanut butter can be abused. As for 'our lives', if you want to get technical, we gave the reins to him. Now some of us don't like the way the reins seem to be beng handled and want them back. Everyone has their story, their voice. Each is to be respected as the life experience of a sovereign human being, no better or worse than any other in the eyes of the Creator. We can't agree or disagree with someone's direct experience, we can only listen and absorb the words, thoughts and feelings of the teller. There is no wrong or right to someone's experience. We can only be there and share the joy or sorrow of the moment. I am no one's judge, not even my own. (atheists, agnostics, and general bible haters, please skip to next paragraph) I also beleive that energy expended (sowing) results in energy returned (reaping) on an individual soul basis, and no one can touch that immutable law of cause and effect, save Forgiveness Grace, hence their supreme preciousness and the necessity to produce in real time and real life the tragic street theatre that had to take place 2000 years ago to dramatize the the fact, played most admirably by the Rabbi Jesus of Nazareth, who brought the Knowledge from China, Tibet and India as far west as it had ever been in our known history. This set up the stage for the next move, which was to spread it from the east even unto the west, all the way full circle, to be led by a little child. That's historical reference, and I don't think people wrote it just to mess with their progeny's heads. For what? -shp One thing for sure I agree wtih that he said was in answer to the question 'What is the most precious thing you gave us?' To which he replied, 'Each other'. Right on. Where would anyone of us be now if we had no one to talk to, be we premie, ex-premie, or just going through a midlife audit of everything and doing some serious soul searching, truth or dare style. -shp 'May we all be made stronger by our search for the truth of our own lives' -shp yup, you'll need strength and inner reserves when you find the courage to look at Maharaji as he really is, not just as how you want to see him. -cq 'How I want to see him', as you put it, is in the clear light of truth. St. Paul (atheists, agnostics, and general bible haters, please skip to next paragraph) advised us to 'try the spirits to see if they be of God.' I figure that if God is all-loving, then He won't mind being carded, so to speak, realizing the dilemma we mortals, His children, are having in this darkest of Kali Yugas to find our way home. When I'm out and I forgot my key and I knock, I don't mind my kid asking who is at the door or checking out the peephole. I would not want him to just open the door to our home to anyone just because they knocked. I thnk that is a reflection of how God feels about us, for the love of a parent is not unlike the love of a Creator. -shp Good luck, Chris This has nothing to do with luck, but I accept the vibe behind your words. Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 22:25:24 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: A tad 'judgemental', no? Message:

Hello Sanford, One thing for sure I agree with that he said was in answer to the question 'What is the most precious thing you gave us?' To which he replied, 'Each other'. Right on. Where would anyone of us be now if we had no one to talk to, be we premie, ex-premie, or just going through a midlife audit of everything and doing some serious soul searching, truth or dare style. -shp I have to assume you are telling the truth here, but I find it hard to believe; m said he gave you each other?!! Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but you seem to be including even those who have never been associated with m, but I doubt it, because it seems to me that many who have been associated with m see those who are not as some kind of inferior beings or, at best, lost souls. I rejected churchianity as a child because of precisely the same 'belief' system. One way or another, just reading this hurts my head and my heart. How could anyone take this (insanity) seriously? It's appalling what m and 'k' seem to do a premies heart, mind and soul. With regards to the 'mid-life audit of everything and doing some serious soul searching', it's never too late! ('truth or dare style?' How can you cheapen the concept of soul-searching with such a childish phrase?) Anna

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Date: Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 01:28:34 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Please forgive me, I am still under construction. Message:

Anna, So sorry that you had a bad reaction to what I said. On one hand I can always be better at communicating, and on the other hand I am not here for your entertainment and pleasure. I will work on my communication and perhaps you could read with a bit more compassion, just as you would like me or someone else to do when reading soemthing you had to dig deep for to bring out. OK? Maybe if you check it out between the lines, tune into where I was coming from, your headache might subside a bit. I do believe that we are siblings in the Creator's eyes and have the potential to have such a relationship. And I do not think people without Knowledge or those who have left are any less than me in any way. Everything can shift in a nanosecond, without a moment to reconsider our evaluation. So I try to remain clear of all that.

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Date: Fri, Nov 17, 2000 at 04:08:12 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: Please forgive me, I am still under construction. Message:

Sure Sanford, We are all 'works' in progress, we can all do better at communicating, but what does communication have to do with 'entertainment and pleasure,' and why do you imply that that is what I am reading here for? I have the same 'bad reaction' when I read the words of m, most premies, a few of exes', born again Christians, and a number of other cultic types. Cultic thinking also seems to exist in many everyday 'institutions': the arts, sports, politics, industry, and most sadly, marriage and other social relationships. All negative cults enslave. I do feel compassion for you Sanford, that's why I'm taking the time to communicate my observations to you, please forgive my awkwardness, but I would like to see you break free in the same way that I would like to see a woman I was talking with earlier tonight break free of an abusive, self-nihilating relationship. 'Whatever-It-Is' gave you your being, my being and m's being, same as everything else; what are you going to do with yours? You acknowledge the human family and deny it in one sentence: I do believe that we are siblings in the Creator's eyes and have the potential to have such a relationship. In the Creator's eyes? What about in your eyes? Are we siblings, or are we only born with the potential to become siblings? If the latter, rather than the former is true, what is the process through which to actualize this potential, and what are the criteria through which to recognize this type of transformation? Most importantly for me, as I've asked a number of premies and exes, if you 'realize' that we are all one, what do you do with that knowledge? IMO, we are siblings, but we could certainly improve the quality of our relationships with each other and our environment, wouldn't you agree? I don't hear many 'devotees' of any kind doing anything about these 'real' issues. To me, it's possible that your words are an example of what Toby mentioned above, : I remember in the beginning of the 90's Rajaji was touring and giving strange examples about truth like: 'when it is day and I say it's night, it is also true because on the other side of the earth it is still day.' I didn't understand it at that time why he was trying to relativate such things. But now I know that it was a part of the campaign to make the premies professional liars and to corrupt their characters which partially worked pretty well. Anna

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 06:20:55 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: By The Way Message:

By the way, Michael, I was very close to your brother Peter in the late seventies and have fond memories of conversations with your mother. Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:07:08 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: those darn financial details, and Paradise Lost Message:

Dear Michael: Thanks for finally responding. Ok - I understand that you can't talk about the money that much (at all?). Frankly, I am disappointed that some parts of the financial information have not been placed in the jigsaw puzzle that has been gradually pieced together here. Indeed, the confidentiality agreements reached with several informed individuals have served to perpetuate and protect m.'s operations from closer scrutiny and questioning by the premies, especially, as well as the media and various regulatory agencies. However, I think that your posts have helped provide a better understanding of the shuffling and processes that most of us were never honestly apprised of by the organization or m. Based on other sources, though, I personally think that some illegal activities might have happened (unbeknownst to you) involving large amounts of cash. A lot of cash got laundered through those knowledge sessions and darshan lines. While you understandably state that nothing illegal happened under your watch, that is also essentially a technicality and an opinion, too -- I feel that m. has violated and, in fact, grossly abused the trust of the premies, as well as his position as an alleged spiritual leader. I further believe a number of inexcusable improprieties were committed and concealed via the organization in diverse matters. (Sarupanand ji and the gurus who preceded him did not milk the kn. techniques as a cash cow and transform propagation and service into a worldly ego power trip.) Coming from the civil rights, peace, and youth movements of the time, we were all very vulnerable and gullible, in retrospect. My own conclusions coincide with yours [as you stated above]: '...there are justifiable grounds to question the ethics surrounding his accumulation of wealth. In that regard, I have taken particular exception to Élan Vital’s statement that Maharaji 'in his private life, as a means of maintaining his independence, has business interests which have been very successful.' To reiterate what I have already said, this statement is a shameful attempt to obscure the fact that his fortune is really based on the love, devotion and efforts of sincere and trusting premies who believed in him.' On a related note (subject: criminal matters), I am also personally aware of events/details relating to Fakiranand's braining of a radical Detroit reporter in the summer of 1973. I was at the ashram, met with, and spoke briefly with mahatmaji that same evening. Other persons directly associated with DLM were clearly involved, from my observation. That's obviously why DLM settled with the reporter (I think the figure was about $100,000) - to prevent a trial and the terrible publicity that would ensue. The Detroit and national press was already fairly skeptical of m. at the time. While the pie incident got a lot of attention, it is interesting that the criminal assault by Fakiranand was basically hushed up asap. [I should have saved the news clippings.] I'm not one to get on your case (too much), given your situation and the circumstances of many other persons. I mean, if I was naive for almost 30 years, then you obviously thought you were doing the right thing, at the time. When the doubts and ethics issues became too much, you left. Alas, hindsight informs us that perhaps we should have left sooner? However, I was never in a position to witness the financial information you are privy to r.e. m. Michael, in reviewing your confidentiality agreement, are they any other areas you can discuss here, such as the ownership of SEVA corp., Monica-m., why an L.A. house was co-purchased for April Gillam, the setup and arrangement with premie businesses, shares in those businesses (book distribution, etc.), or other areas you could shed some light upon? How about just annual DLM/EVI revenues/various expenses, proportionately? What's this report about a G-5? Really?! Amazing - when is enough ever going to be enough? I will be preparing a short, factual introduction (1 paragraph each) to some of the EVI plane documents (Lear and Challenger fundraising letters recently posted on this site) later this week. When I'm done, I would be obliged if you would review my assessment of the 1980s plane projects/campaigns - for accuracy and any missing details. Besides the early prop planes, 707, Lear, Challengers, G-4, glider, and Bell chopper, were there any other aircraft or related projects? What were those first 2 planes? Beechcraft? Also, the Deca project. If you or someone else could prepare a succint 1-2 paragraph explanatory summary about Deca, that would effectively help put Deca into better perspective in the whole procession of increasingly expensive aircraft. A G-5, really?!! Personally, it was a shattering experience to find one's faith, trust and confidence in m. destroyed. Then, after the disillusionment to find hope and purpose again. A lot of soul searching... The last steps to enlightenment may involve discarding the master and his image - ultimately deterrents and concepts on the path of truth. I now worship the conscious infinite energy permeating and operating this entire universe, not any specific human being (although some merit my respect). [Nihilism was not a viable or healthy alternative for me.] Paradise Lost, wisdom gained, and after the pain - a life renewed. Peace, PS I couldn't sleep last night, so I watched the inner light in between my eyes (without doing the technique). When I pray for guidance, the light gets brighter. Same as it ever was... And so, I continue and persevere in my own personal experience.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:09:13 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: suchabanana Subject: Detroit ashram Message:

suchabanana: We probably know each other. I lived in the Kalamazoo ashram in '73-'74. Received k in Grand Rapids in November of '72. I used to go to Detroit regularly during '72-'74 to do propagation. I was very close to Dean Zito. Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 16:23:49 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: suchabanana Subject: PS to suchabanana Message:

I forgot to mention that I was in the audience in Detroit when M got pied. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:03:58 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Detroit/Soupy Sales trad led to m. party pie rite Message:

I was at several parties after that incident where m. threw pies in the faces of premies (incl a b'day on the Queen Mary at Long Beach). Pie-throwing became almost a bizarre m. rite to make light of and play down the Detroit incident (Fakiranand's braining session was never revived as a skit, however). Maybe some people thought some kind of karma was being worked out - hah! At the Detroit ceremony: What transpired, from your observation? Did he get the award first (key to the city or plaque), then blam? Remember the cover photo of it in the newspaper the next morning? That photo appeared all over the country. Do we have it posted on this site yet? [I'll have to check] The pie incident and Fakiranand's swift revenge basically killed everything for that upcoming Soul Rush event at Cobo Hall, too! Cancelled. Remember those 'Guru Maharaj ji is here and now' black and white face posters? and Millenium '73 color posters? and 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji' literature? 13-year Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe stuff? Some areas of the larger US cities were plastered with those posters and flyers during much of 1973. How many times did m. ever go back to Detroit? I don't think it turned out to be a hot spot for propagation! I went to California after the pie and baragon incidents. Peace,

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 16:17:36 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: suchabanana Subject: Trip down memory lane Message:

Hey such, I have one of those black and white leaflets from propagating in Detroit!!!! I was 3 rows back from the front of the stage. M got the key first, and then BLAM! I remember the totally horrified looks on the faces of Dean and Jeff. I was also at the Queen Mary event, and it was Bihari Singh who got pied there by M. I even have pictures of it. I moved to SF in August, 1974, and the Queen Mary event was that December, for M's birthday. Are you in touch with anyone from the Detroit ashram? Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 20:33:59 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Marianne Subject: can u scan poster + pie photo, email to post here? Message:

I was just in the Detroit area for about 6 weeks doing propagation for the event. Then I went to Calif. (via Soul Rush events - some were cancelled because he got sick) before being sent to Houston for Millenium preparation and event. (I sat on the stage for 3 days 15-20 feet from m.) Those were pretty intense times! After the pie-throwing, Fakiranand and those 2 brothers showed that freak reporter stars. Was it the baragon or a hammer - there have been varying reports? Did you save any of the news clips? What was that weekly rag - Fifth Estate? Fakiranand and the 2 brothers (names?) stopped by the ashram (in the evening) -- long-distance phone calls were going back and forth. A car was packed with luggage, and parked in front on the street. Fakiranand had changed from his usual saffron outfit to nondescript street clothes and was hanging out by the car, waiting. Something was odd in his uneasy manner - he was not acting like himself. When I walked out to greet him, he was very surprised to see me (I had last seen him in L.A.), and I asked him what was happening and if he was leaving. One guy was at the wheel waiting to go. Fakiranand was by the trunk. The other brother came back out, said something to Fakiranand, and then he said they were going to Chicago now. They got in the car and left fast. That was the last time I ever saw Fakiranand. That small black and white poster - can you scan it? Also, the Queen Mary pie-throwing pic - that would be great for this site and a brief explanation after the mention of the Detroit incidents. Peace,

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:18:23 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My response to your question Message:

O.K. I can't hold back on this one. Could anyone imagine P.P. Singh Rawat suing Michael Dettmers based on breach of the non-disclosure agreement? The bad publicity would be the last nail in his coffin. Come on Michael. Steve

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:14:28 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Hear! Hear! Message:

And Rawat would have to put up or shut up. He could hardly put it about that MD had broken the Agreement -- under those circumstances people would expect Rawat to take legal action, not just bleat. It would be a very serious allegation. But Rawat is hardly likely to put himself in a position where he could be cross-examined in court, is he? Not about the nature or purpose of his businesses, and where the money originally came from. And even if this unlikely scenario were to unfold (as one might say, in front of dear Jim's drooling jaws) are we to believe the court would find for Rawat? In the matter of a non-disclosure agreement with a false God and fraudulent Messiah? No, Rawat would not sue. And if he did, the Agreement would be unenforceable. Rawat's Mission (the whole ground and substance of the matter) was ever a fraud. J'accuse Rawat!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:05:07 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Steve Quint Subject: My response to your question Message:

Steve, I am well aware of that argument, but it fails to take into account a point which I have made a couple of times already. I have current clients who, as a standard practice, include non-disclosure clauses in all of their agreements with outside consultants. I am not going to put myself in the position where I may have to explain the circumstances under which I selectively decided to ignore such a provision. Michael

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:15:05 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: You could just explain to current clients...... Message:

that you once thought this ugly fat slob rawat was the incarnation of GOD. You were duped and you want to help others not make the same mistake.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:28:42 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: My response to your question Message:

Poor argument, sir. Think of the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands or people that would benefit from full disclosure. You are obviously multi-talented and should firstly, gain the cheers and admiration of any sane-minded client and secondly you could and should, if your clients turn out not to be such people, surely find gainful employment elsewhere. You would have done a significant service and cleared your mind of any lingering guilt. Steve

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 01:06:43 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Grow up, Quint. Message:

I couldn't help but read your post, even tho I promised myself not to. Before I got on line, I was thinking of suggesting to MD to take a break from this site, so the rabble could die down. Sure enough, look what's here. You want MD to be responsible for your 'hundreds and thousands'? Sacrifice his career on some misplaced guilt trip? Why stop there. What about the community coordinators, the house mama, papas, blah blah blah. Maybe he could finf gainfull employment like yourself, in the food service or housekeeping industries...

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 02:17:38 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: DV Subject: Fulfill Your Promises, DV Message:

I can see that you have also been a devotee of the monster. You've learnt well not to fulfill your promises.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 00:57:39 (GMT) From: DV Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Explain yourself, Message:

or shut up.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 05:44:14 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: DV Subject: It's Impossible To Explain Anything To An Idiot Message:

And don't ever tell me to 'shut up'.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 22:33:50 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Steve Quint Subject: Be serious Message:

Think of the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands or people that would benefit from full disclosure. They are not his problem in life, Steven. And they aren't really your concern in your post. You just wanna know is all, and if curiosity kills the financial cat, so what? It's not YOUR cat, right? You would have done a significant service and cleared your mind of any lingering guilt. You're not the least bit concerned here about Michael's well-being, but you can rationalize the behavior you encourage like THIS?? That's Rawat's ploy - asking self-sacrifice from others in 'their best interest', when actually HE is the one benefitting from it. Life isn't about 'doing service'. It's about doing what you believe is right - according to your own values. You either do or don't live by your own principals, and they either do or don't work for you. Only a fool would make personal or business decisions based on the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands of other people.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 18:35:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Brian Subject: er, excuse me? Message:

Brian, your argument would free even Hermann Goering of any responsibility for his complicity in the 3rd Reich! You say: 'Only a fool would make personal or business decisions based on the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands of other people.' You sure you meant to say that? I agree when you say that life is 'about doing what you believe is right', but if Michael Dettmers choses to refrain from outing one of the world's major con-artists who is continuing to screw up the lives of too many people (and I have an inkling that Michael's got the means to out him - why else would Rawat have required the non-disclosure clause?) if Dettmers prefers just to protect his own reputation as 'a secure business-partner', then that says a lot more about his so-called 'ethical' stance (and his choice of business partners) than he might wish. Michael's own financial well-being might be the most important thing is his own life, but why should it be in ours?

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 21:20:26 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: cq Subject: er, excuse me? Message:

When Steven makes the statement that the mental health and wellbeing of hundreds or thousands of other people [HIS words, not mine] is somehow hinging on what Michael Dettmers decides to post on this forum, I don't share his belief. Were Michael to modify his personal values based on Steven's belief in Michael's amazing power over these fictional lives, Michael would be a fool in my eyes. Now, tell me you didn't follow that in the thread. Do you happen to believe that you personally have the ability to destroy or repair that many lives based on what you post here? Are paople able to pull your strings in life by saying that they will be 'hurt' by your not behaving as they dictate? Do you really accept that shouldering a self-sacrificing 'responsibility' to serve someone else's demands is more important than living by your own values? I hope not... You brought up Hermann Goering. Why not instead make your point by saying that Dorothy was cruel and unfeeling to hurt so many people who wanted her to remain in Oz?? It's nicer, and just sa much gibberish in my mind.

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 18:40:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Brian Subject: er, excuse me? Message:

It's been a long day at work, but I'll try to put a few relevant thoughts together. Perhaps the scenario Steve is envisaging goes something like this: The Maha has, over the decades, had a very big effect on literally thousands (maybe even tens of thousands?) of people. The effect of becoming ensnared into his dependency trip is expensive - not just financially, but in terms of wasted time, opportunities, misplaced faith etc. And the Maha still continues to snare people. How many, over the next decade (for instance) will go through the whole trip, and come out the other side of it thinking - 'what the hell did I waste my energy on that for?' Now, suppose (a long shot, but a possibility) that someone like Michael Dettmers (or Peter Potter, for instance), who has the low-down on some the Maha's less-than-ethical money-making scams, were to come forward and alert the various government agencies (that are supposed to prevent fraudulent misappropriation of charity/church funds) to the fact that M's empire is a lot less squeaky-clean than it's painted. To cut a long story short, what if it led to the Maha being discredited to the extent that he could never profit from his scam again (maybe even face tax-evasion charges, who knows?) The point is this - wouldn't putting him out of action save a lot of sweat and tears on the part of the people who are still being drawn into it? (not to mention the sense of closure it would bring many of us who post here at ex-premie.org). I guess the question is this: is it ethical to let the man continue to damage people's lives when you've got the ability to prevent him? Is it?

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 09:39:14 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Brian Subject: How about ... Message:

Only a cad would make personal or business decisions without considering thier impact on the mental health and wellbeing of... of other people. Call me an old fashioned guy, but I do think other people matter. Does the former right hand man to 'God incarnate' think otherwise?

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 22:58:37 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: forum Subject: Godwin Limit proximity alert Message:

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] 'As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.' There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. (From the Jargon file)

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 06:13:27 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Brian Subject: Be serious Message:

As usual I find Brian has touched on a very interesting topic here. Both manipulation and self-sacrifice. I'm reading a book, a novel, by Mark Salzman called 'Lying Awake'. I've only read the first 60 pages. It's about devotion. It's about women in a Carmelite monastery living a 'contemplative life'. From the first page its about everything being devotion to god -- every thought, every move, in gratitude and prayer -- utter credit to their god and sacrifice to the point of pain. Again and again in so many ways of life and beliefs I see this worship of others to the detriment and discredit of one's self. Makes me wonder why. Even in something as seemingly harmless as rock star worship...I heard a story of a woman fighting her way back stage at a Red Hot Chili Peppers concert, fighting over a pair of Flea's sweaty underwear, then actually wringing them out above her face to drink the drop of sweat that fell from them. She felt satisfied to finally have a part of him in her. So I wonder...the utter devotion to the false Lord of the Universe in M sucks, yes. But it seems to the utter devotion to anyone and anything sucks as well. I guess maybe this just touches on that line between being part of a group and being in a cult.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 04:16:58 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Brian Subject: Brian Message:

Hi Brian, Just saw your thread below. I cant email from this computer, although I can send and recieve email at the rocketmail address. Would you send me the address you want the money sent to. And if you want checks, I will need your last name again!

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 14:24:41 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: bill Subject: What's your email address? Message:

Umm, Bill... you could email me FROM rocketmail so that I know where to send the email [grin] brian@ex-premie.org

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Date: Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 04:23:24 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Brian Subject: sure..nt Message:

sdgh

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:15:48 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Brian Subject: Have you become so twisted? Message:

Have you become so twisted and cynical from followin m that consideration of others and consideration of reason is totally irrelevant to you?

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 21:23:05 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: questions raise questions - legal questions ... Message:

Michael, I hope you won't forget that some of your current clients might view your apparent so-called loyalty, under the mask of your non-disclosure agreement with Maharaji, alias Guru Maharaj Ji, (the man that claimed to be God incarnate) actually puts you in a far less ethically sound position than you might hope. It's one thing to swear not to disclose information. It's quite another to with-hold information that could lead to a conviction. Are you prepared to take your 'legal' non-disclosure clause into court? Just asking. PS I repost my reply to Janet (in a post about the UK Charity Commission) below, in the hope that is might help you view this whole scenario in another light: Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:52:10 From: cq Email: None To: janet Subject: for starters.. you might send her... Message: Hi Janet, There's so many beans to spill aren't there? I think we've got to remember that we're dealing with a Government agency here, and one that plays things strictly by the books. There are many people who are trustees of Charities (many of them very wealthy) whose lives are less than ethical, but as long as they don't break the rules (at least as far as Charity-status goes) then the Commission really has no power of retribution. No matter how unethical the whole Maha scenario might seem to those of us who have seen through it, the likes of the Commission can really do nothing UNTIL and UNLESS THEIR rules are broken. The Maha might have been (or still be) a piss-artist (ie given to binges on alcohol) but that ain't no crime. He might have resisted dealing with his addiction in a therapy/counselling scenario, but that ain't no crime. He might have been screwing every would-be Gopi that thought he was Krishna re-incarnate, but ... you guessed it. He might have gotten stoned to Peter Frampton but ... woah! now that might be criminal, but what do you think the Charity Commission can do about that? Heh, heh, ... get my drift? (that last bit should be said in a Barry White octave) - sad but you gotta laugh, at least a bit? Perhaps there's some way of proving that the Maha gets his income from nowhere else. But first we gotta prove it. It can be a long hard walk to get the criminals to face justice, especially when justice (so-called) prefers to turn the other cheek. But what we're looking for here, in my ever-so-jaundiced opinion, is for some people who COULD spill the real beans (the ones that count, you dig?) to put their er ... 'non-disclosure agreements' are they called? - under the spotlight. Yeah, it's no surprise that Michael Dettmers' name comes to mind here, but I bet there's plenty more that have signed similar agreements with the Maha, over the last few decades. Michael might think, in some perverse way, that he's safeguarding his quote 'ethical' interests by preventing a criminal (OK - it hasn't been proved yet, but you know what I'm getting at) from facing the music. But I wonder what his current clients (especially any 'religously'-inclined ones) might think of that attitude? . . . Where do we go from here? Evidence of illegal behaviour - particularly on the financial front. That's what's required. Who to supply it? i wonder.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 01:30:00 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: something's hinky with you dettmers... Message:

I think you are a big bullshit artist who is trying to cover his ass in case the shit hits the fan on goober's frauduent aquisition of wealth.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:16:42 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: gerry Subject: something's hinky with you dettmers... Message:

gErRy, Dettmers has given some valuable information to this forum and just about everyone here believes it. His motivation may not be completely pure but it doesn't matter. His presentation is pretty slick and I can see how that makes you wonder. But Dettmers has essentially co-signed on the most important items on our list of complaints about maharaji. That's worth alot regardless of how much the guy bothers you. Maybe it's time to loosen up, gErRy. Steal some sodas and ball-point pens from the local Rexall. Add a couple of fake jobs to your resume or put a little dye on those greying temples. Everyone's dying to get something for free, gErRy, and most people do it. They pop a few grapes in their choppers before they get to the checkout stand, or get in the ten-items-only line with fifteen cans of soup. Hell, Katie even stole my silverware and salt shakers. See gErRy, you're so frustrated that anyone's getting anything for free while you're being such a good boy, and it's just eating away at you. Live a little, Man, no one will blame you.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 16:37:18 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Rick Subject: I knew I should have finished my university degree Message:

then I'd be as smart and smooth as dettmers. Hey maybe I can still matriculate at Kennedy Western !!! As far as living a little, well, I went razor clamming on Friday night. Does that count? But yeah, I took only my legal limit. And those damn dungeness crabs, if they were only an eighth of an inch bigger I coulda kept 'em. Oh and I copped a few dances with a town chippie at the VFW Halloween night. Shoulda seen the dress she was wearing and none of the young dudes were hitting on her. Patty led me out by my ear, though. It was kinda embarrassing but I had a mask on...

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 13:23:38 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: gerry Subject: something's hinky with you gerry... Message:

gerry, If Michael was trying to cover his ass- he wouldn't have posted here in the first place. Far much easier for him to drift silently into obscurity, like most of the other PAMs who have quit. The fact that he has posted here and answered everyone's questions to the best of his ability is surely to his credit. If you call him a bullshit artist- you should be specific and say exactly what he's been bullshitting about. The way I understand what he's written is he's telling it how it is. Give the guy a break- he deserves a medal, not a slagging off. Anth the Libran

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:35:43 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: AJW Subject: Well we all know THAT, Anth Message:

The reason dettmers posted here was in response to Roger's excellent parody on his website. Anyone searching the net for info on dettmers got The House of Drek. You actually think he's here for any other reason? Like his conscience was bothering him? Ha ha ha ha, or Bwah ha ha ha ha, as Mike would say. No, he was flushed out. How do you know he's answered all questions 'to the best of his ability?' He sounds very cagey and contrived to me. See my post to Patrick for more on 'bullshit.' And Anth, dettmers already got his 'break.' His hush money, remember? Oh yeah, that and the deca company.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 12:09:53 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: gerry Subject: My life of crime in Divine Sales Message:

If Mike Dettmers wanted to 'cover his ass' then writing stuff on this forum wouldn't help him. If it comes down to illegalities, such things are decided in a court of law, not a message board. I used to regularly embessle small amounts of money out of Divine Sales jumble sales. I was poor and I needed the cash. I was amazed at how easy it was and I considered the other premies to be too spaced out to worry about them catching me. Just pick up an item of clothing to hide my hand and then slip a few quid into my pocket. Did anyone else do this, I wonder? This was a regular Saturday afternoon income for me. On the financial level of Mike Dettmers and Maharaji, there's many loopholes and there's no need to do anything illegal. I think Maharaji has always done illegal things - drug smuggling, diamond smuggling, drug possession etc but if an accountant such as Mike Dettmers was dealing with his financial affairs, he'd make sure that everything was above board and legit. An accountant won't want to risk losing their accountant's licence to operate and they'll know all the legal loopholes to legaly cut taxes, hide money etc. So I'd agree with others here and say that Mike Dettmers wouldn't have do anything illegal, although of course, as he's admitted himself, it may have been morally wrong.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 03:52:14 (GMT) From: Tim Miller Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Me too! But just once Message:

I have never been so excited about service than the time I was selling pictures for DLM at the Kissimee (isn't this boring) Festival. I think it was 1979. It was the first Kissimee event in any case, not the midnight darshan one. Every day, faithfully, I would 'report' for my service at the booth. Gosh it was easy. I think all toll I was able to steal about 120.00 dollars. That really helped with the gas money for the ride home. And yes, I definately didn't buy that 'He's the Lord crap.' I can't believe so many of you did.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 16, 2000 at 12:42:46 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Tim Miller Subject: I was there Message:

but I didn't want to buy any of your pictures because I had been revolted by the spectacle of the Lord with his flowery string vest on. Ah, if only we had struck up a conversation, you would have made me feel much better. I thought that everybody there was seeing Maharaji as the Lord and I was the only one seeing a fat, ugly bloke in a string vest.

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 05:25:51 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: My life of crime in Divine Sales Message:

That's really funny. This tells me that even then you knew somehow that rawat was no Jesus. Just imagine stealing from God.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 11:34:19 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: gerry Subject: How about some credit where credit's due Gerry? Message:

I think you are a big bullshit artist who is trying to cover his ass in case the shit hits the fan on goober's frauduent aquisition of wealth. Bullshit Artist - Hardly! What he has said has rung truer, and been more interesting and substantial, than anything anyone else has said for a long time on this forum. It sounds to me like Gerry may not have read all of what Dettmers wrote lately. I can't believe anyone who did could say this. Mike says that he doesn't know of illegal goings on. Why assume he is lying to 'cover his ass'? That's an extreme judgement with no proof. Anyway even if he is concerned to preserve his interests to a large extent (and he has admitted that) he has hardly been shy and retiring about his criticism of Maharaji. He has actually been fiercely critical of Maharaji - this doesn't smack of someone primarily concerned with covering their ass to me. I understood that Mike said that he doesn't know of illegal goings on but says he acknowledges that Maharaji's money mainly comes from premies. He is very critical of the way that Maharaji's aquisition of wealth is now explained by EV and the morality of it etc. What's the matter with that? Sounds pretty honest to me. It's in Mike's interest not to break his legal contract and I would expect him not to do so. I sort of understand why some may feel extremely sensitive and hostile about all this but I think this anger against Dettmers is excessive and misdirected. To constantly berate Michael Dettmers seems to serve no useful purpose since he has actually been very forthcoming.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:48:28 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Patrick Subject: OK Patrick, but... Message:

I hardly think anyone is 'constantly berating' dettmers, the opposite is more likely. The same for 'excessive and misdirected anger.' I think it is funny that people believe thaat the main architect of goober's financial empire and his 'personal manager' for fifteen years had no knowledge of financial wrongdoings. This is laughable in the extreme. I can just about see him writing this latest stuff with his lawyer looking over his shoulder. And of course there's the unresolved issue of his 'college degree' from Western Kennedy and his bullshit resume as well as his bullshit business. The guy's made of bullshit if you ask me. Carefully constructed and well spoken bullshit, but bullshit non-the-less. So dettmers, just how big was your hush money payoff ???

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 14:48:01 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Patrick Subject: What's illegal has always been done by individuals Message:

and not by EV as far as I know. Everything has always been done to 'protect' Rawat. I've been part of seminars with one of EV's intl lawyers (V Ciulio), and he's always been very adamant on this very point. When there was anything illegal to be done, that was premies responsibility, and EV had nothing to do with it. I've been part of some illegal money tranfers from France to the US. Nothing to do with EV of course ....

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:12:36 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What's illegal has always been done by individuals Message:

Yes indeed, Milky Cole was apparently very successful at fundraising and the fact that it was from cocaine dealing, using willing premies was overlooked. I have no proof on this story , before it is demanded but I trusted my source at the time. hal

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 17:37:11 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Hal Subject: What's illegal has always been done by individuals Message:

I also have memories of situations when individuals were told to do 'illegal' transactions in order to cover Rawat's ass. There are plenty of examples - starting from the ill-famed diamond smuggling into India in 1972. Quite often, it was a question of illegal money transfers from one country to another. And, while we were premies, we did not think there was anything wrong with it. We felt it was ok, as long as it helped the Perfect Hamster's work. That's why I asked Michael about the Swiss bank accounts in the first place, some weeks ago. The obvious need for Swiss bank accounts being when you want to make transactions untraceble. Anyway, there is an important distinction between illegal and immoral activities. As somebody said above, whether something is illegal or not is to be determined by judge and jury, not by this forum. When Michael says he does not know about illegal transactions, I take it as what he is saying is that he at least has not done anything illegal. (Surely, he must know about for example the diamond smuggling in 1972, which actually went to court in India, and about other illegal transfers from one country to another, before his time as Rawat's economy advisor.) Personally, I leave it at that. I guess that was part of his job, to see to it that Rawat's activities could stand a little scrutiny, as long as he was Rawat's advisor. I appreciate his input, and welcome him to the forum. He has said explicitly that he is not proud of all the things he did as a big honcho. That's enough for me. I hope his example will make other honchos come out in the open, as well.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 05:02:44 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: stonor21@hotmail.com To: gErRy Subject: something's hinky with you dettmers... Message:

Put the 'nothing illegal' as 'nothing'illegal'' and accept that this is the reality of big money multinational corporations - nothing is 'illegal' until it has been established 'by law' as such - accountants just do their job as well as they can with the loopholes they are provided with and in the paid service of their employers. Have you read Bucky Fuller's 'Grunch'('87, but still lots of relevance)? Or how about Leguinn - 'Acceptance is the only power.' Please email me your new email address. Stonor

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 15:44:03 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Gerry Subject: If I had a non-disclosure agreement... Message:

I don't think I would ignore it and tell all. I would protect myself and family from probable lawsuits. Gerry, I understand your anger, I have felt it about the honchos around Maharaji, too. But a separation agreement is a legal document. Sure, I'd like to know what the severance pay was, but I think demanding that Michael disclose that is unfair. Michael told us he did get one, and has revealed and confirmed so much here. M owes all of us...are we going to get $$? I don't think so. Because Michael calls himself an ex-premie, has had correspondence from EV and has published it here, you know that they are watching every word he writes. I think that's good. What I'm angry about is the yacht and the alleged newly acquired aircraft. I want to know more about THAT. Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 18:54:39 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Hinky winky? Message:

Michael Dettmers has, as mentioned above, given some of the most interesting and non-ranting condemnation of MJ's activities anywhere on this website. I think it is quite unfair to make him the object of projected anger which belongs elsewhere. Some people are more successful and skilled and wealthy than others, and Michael Dettmers is certainly not stopping my success or anyone else's. People (I mean exes) whom I invite to this Forum often complain that it's too full of people blaming MJ for what isn't working in their lives, years later. Actually, I find myself clearly empathizing with both sides of this line -- I do blame him for certain things that have made my life difficult, and I also take responsibility for my choices and I am moving on, quite successfully. I find it helpful and also funny to 'go both ways' on this. I don't find it helpful to apply the same blame game to Michael or other premies or former premies. I see myself too clearly in their actions and behaviors, albeit in my little scaled down ways. And they never claimed to be perfect or asked me to give the reins of my life to them, and they would take care of me. Someone did, though, and I think this grants a lot of license to haul him over the carpet!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:35:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Disculta Subject: guess you haven't been around very long Message:

People (I mean exes) whom I invite to this Forum often complain that it's too full of people blaming MJ for what isn't working in their lives, years later. This is crapola. Who, what, when? Most people here are very successful as far as I can determine. You know, I was just thinking the other day, I've TOTALLY accomplished what I've desired for years and have been living my ideal life for at least five years. Could things get better? Sure. Will I feel different about my life later on? Possibly. Everyone measures success in their own terms. I certainly don't blame or credit goober for anything in my present life. I don't hear anyone complaining in this manner here either. Sure, they regret the years that their cult enslavemnt wasted, who wouldn't, but most have truly 'moved on' and gotten a life as far as I can tell. As far as dettmers, I'm not at all angry with him. Not at all. I just don't trust him. After all, he knew goober was 'just an ordinary mortal' as early as 1974 and he continued presenting him as something other than that. And he bailed out with a golden parachute when things no longer suited him.

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 23:42:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: all Subject: OK maybe I' m just jealous Message:

Maybe michael deserved the dough after all his years of faithful and effective, ah, er, service. And I'm sure he did a damn good job. So what if he bailed with a golden umbrella? And didn't we all get out when it 'no longer suited us?' Ward? Yes dear... Do you think you were a little rough on the beaver last night? I'll see you at five, dear...

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 00:16:42 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, I' m just jealous too::o)) Message:

Hi gerry, I'm extremely envious of not getting a golden parachute. Twice. I slaved as a child for my father (one of his sadist pleasures), and will I inherit anything? Nada. I slaved for Guru Maharaj Ji consistently for years until my health gave out, I lost my spirituality, my ambition. Will I get a pension, severance pay, or golden parachute? Nooope. Does it piss me off. YESSSSSS!!! Very much. If I could sue somebody I would. However, I have no legal ability to do so. It's the way of the world. It's the way of insidious cults, like Guru Maharaj Ji's. Sant Ji, Rawat...bottom feeder. You know, bottom feeders get the best nutrients. I have a beautiful koi tank and they suck the gravel...they are well fed, but they take everything off of the bottom and they're beautiful. It's a strange analogy, but it's true. Yuck, I feel like I'm sounding like goomraji. See? I'm mad that his words and 'speak' is still engrained. His speak. That pisses me off. Our golden parachute is all neatly allocated for goomraji's high LA lifestyle. What can I do? Nothing. Is it fair? Absolutely not. So rage on gerry, I am no one to stop or discourage you. It's your right to have your feelings and opinions. Keep on posting them! I have a question for Michael Dettmers: did you receive a salary while you were in the position of managing Maharaji's financial matters? Can you say how much? You keep posting too, Michael. It's both appreciated and insightful. Be well, Gerry, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Nov 14, 2000 at 20:15:37 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Cynthia and Gerry Subject: Golden parachute: - is that as useful as ... Message:

... a chocolate fireguard?

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:49:31 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: what strikes me as weird Message:

Is how everyone on this forum addresses Michael with a question by (usually) starting a thread and formally asking him. He doesn't just talk in threads, he is asked to answer, kinda like we used to raise our hands to ask M a question. Sorry Michael I know I am addressing you in the third party here and that is rude but.. hey I didn't wanna start a new thread :)

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 19:54:35 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: what strikes me as weird Message:

Yupper. I noticed that too, Selene. Now THAT pisses me off. All Hail King dettmers !!! Still the PAM Yeck

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:31:38 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: gerry Subject: The smell of evasion Message:

Any premie who has had even the remotest participation in the activities of elan vital has come across the legal doublespeak barrier. A bit like a mini version of the 'x-rating': have you sufficient intelligence to be able to talk legal and act devotee? Can you master the mental gymnastics of such apparent anomalies as 'Ivory's Rock Conference Centre belongs to a company whose main client is Elan Vital, therefore Elan Vital has some say in the development of the facility. Mr Rawatt, sometimes known affectionately as Maharaji by his students, you ask? Oh he is a guest speaker invited to attend this event.' and 'Amaroo belongs to the Master, you may not move a rock without his permission'. On the subject of money, I guess one would hope that someone with intimate knowledge of the process of making the financial activities legal and socially acceptable, would be able to twitch a few blankets. For instance, money used for the hamsters personal expenses coming out of funds raised by ev as registration for an event, at some point this has to be cleaned up on paper, as it would be illegal and improper. It seems the IRS has been interested enough to do more than one audit. It's a pity they didn't have some inside help. I do, however, think there are more factors that determine what we write here than a simple premie reflex of protecting Maharaji. I have good friends whose love and friendship I value deeply, friends who have felt hurt, angry and betrayed by what I have written here. I, like so many of us here, have walked an interestingly delicate path of seeking the deprogramming I need, of caring about the experiences of others, of making sense of my own experience, whilst attempting not to hurt or betray those I love. Damn that bloody parrot and his stinking birdshit. Actually, I wish to mount a defence for parrots. They are beautiful, wonderfully colourful, have very gentle natures, and are one of the funniest comics in the birdworld. That's out in the garden, of course, not neurotically ripping their feathers out as they attempt to imitate the sounds of the idiot human they have bonded with, who doesn't seem capable of having good satisfying sex with them. Oops, went off at a tangent there, regards, Lesley the Primate!

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Date: Mon, Nov 13, 2000 at 20:36:35 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: good tangent LE Message:

I didn't take such a mild course. I have alientated all the premies I know. But I spent my 80's cult years making new non premie friends and I had a chance to see the difference in the quality of friendship. My best friend voted for Bush and she is not giving an ounce to me about my political opinions but we are still friends and I think we always will be. I'm astounded she thinks this way but it isn't like 'you either believe M is god or you don't' and so life goes on. I liked your post a LOT. once again this place makes me see how I am so glad I got out.

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