Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 03:14:10 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Feedback Message:

Kelly, I have copied your post and inserted carrotted comments where the spirit moved me: On screen heading, “The Fundamentals” The following extract is a straight, uncut sequence. Maharaji… “Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master. >OK, thank you very much. The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening. >Hey, it's your gig, whatever. But I thought that was your mission and your father's agya to you. Why would you not have Knowledge sessions, with all due respect? The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes. >I got it. You are strawbossing this gig. Got it. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) >I don't know enough to say anything else but hey, thanks for crossing the world so that I could receive Knowledge. Even though I have some real issues with you as a person (if that's allowed), you did facilitate my receiving Knowledge. And it does feel good. Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested make many of these things a physical reality. >Yes, you did say that premies in service to you are your hands and feet. 'We the people'... But, the key frame here is, compliments..the Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. >Got it. You are the man. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back. >'Scuse me? Not in my wildest metaphors (and God knows I come up with some doozies) would I ever compare Maharaji to my neighbor, Knowledge to his car, and myself to a neighbor who is borrowing his car. My understanding from the Master is that a) Knowledge was always inside us, b) It's a GIFT! Now I hear it's on loan. Which way is it? Gift and loan are two very different scenarios with two very different requirements. Gift requires gratitude. Loan requires repayment. >IF THIS IS SO SIMPLE AS YOU SAY IT IS, WHY IS IT SO GODDAMMED COMPLICATED NOW? WHY ARE THERE SO MANY HUMAN CASUALTIES STREWN AL0NG YOUR GOLDEN WAY WHO CAME TO LOVE AND SERVE JUST LIKE I DID? SURELY THEY CAN'T ALL BE CRAZY OR INSANELY PLOTTING AGAINST YOU FOR NO REASON. You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master… >You said it was a GIFT, FREE, NO CHARGE. Remember? Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege. …Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.” (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling) >Yes, Life itself is a privilege and all good things that come along with it including all the things you mentioned. And I am exercising a privilege too, by boldly approaching the throne of grace and asking without fear of being upbraided, what the hell is going on? What is up with Susan and Abi and all the others who have been messed with under the umbrella of your authority even though you personally had nothing to do with it? Another extract entitled “A little History” Maharaji….” When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it. >Who prepped them for the journey West? Who gave them agya how to be? What to say? How to represent their purpose? Are you saying they all disobeyed your agya and went haywire when they got here? Why blame it all on the Mahatmas? And why wasn't there any stopping it? You had their devotion and attention. Couldn't you have stopped it just by saying you wanted it stopped? The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Because people would ask me point blank these questions…”Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that?“ >Are you saying that you did not personally approve all the publications of Divine Times and all the other printed matter? Are you saying that you really did not want us to sing Arti to you morning and night? Are you saying that all the satsangs and photos you personally approved of that you wanted destroyed were bogus, just tools to reel us in back in the 70's? The backlash that you had to bear was yours to bear, with all due respect, just as I have had to bear all the backlash about Jagdeo and all the rest trying to communicate with my fellow human beings here on this site. They are not all troublemakers, not all bongos, not all even your enemies. Some are just very hurt and pissed, and would sincerely appreciate some sort of an explanation as to the details of how they got caught up in the cogs of the organizations that represented you. I know you can stay behind the curtains and make the lights and smoke do their thing, like in the Wizard of Oz...but if you really are human, now would be a great time to show it here, with all due respect, but serious as a heart attack. “So, that’s the good news, the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts. >What concepts? Please be specific so we can talk with some hope of focussing on what especially are the problem concepts, who perpetuated them and how they can be unperpetuated. Knowledge works…look, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. >I enjoy Knowledge when I get into it. But like any other gift that is given to me, if some bad shit happens between me and the giver of any gift, that gift (or the using of it) is sort of tainted, you know, until the shit is cleared up. Surely you can understand that...so I am just running on the Grace of Almighty God right now, speaking the truth and fearing no man, until I feel better about this relationship. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and it’s great. It all works. >Same goes for the devotee. The devotee, when given the right environment, does his/her thing, and it's great. What we need to determine is 'right environment'. Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. >The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want....yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil, for Thou art with me... Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination….What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes….. >That last sentence basically says that there is no room for error when premies speak. That sounds like a taller order than marriage, which you also once said was a tall order. Good luck! What do you think?….Does this far of the history make any sense? And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there” >Please translate into plain English. If I read you clearly, it all began way before almost anyone present was involved, it began with your awareness and you let it slide for years. Now if that which you allude to comes home to roost, you will blame it on someone else too? Amazing. So Kelly, this is my feedback straight from the hip, the heart, the place inside me that seems to know. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 09:10:02 (GMT) From: Chad (just hangin') Email: None To: all Subject: A small, cautionary note Message:

Not to disturb anyone's entertainment but... You might factor in that you're (in this thread) responding so vehemently and self-righteously to what? ....a skewed, selective, subjective, somewhat misquoted and fun-house mirror rendition of an address you didn't actually hear or see. (Do you so passionately and authoritatively review Bruce Willis movies, based on somebody else's reaction?) Not to mention that, to this observer, the context, vibe, meaning and tone were entirely different than what was described here. Especially the feeling, which still, in the 21st century, means more than 2/3 of the words. Citing cases (Aristotle, da Vinci, Einstein, Jesus, Ram, Miles Davis, King, Dylan, Lennon, Zoroaster, Zorro, Shakespeare, Hendrix, Jefferson and Pythagoras). WIS 33155B I respectfully dissent. From Kelly's perspective, 'all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him.' Just as, to Michael Dettmers, jokes from 22 years ago have now, in the year 2000 (somewhere between May and October) apparently become insensitive and hurtful. (I guess not so) needless to say, it didn't feel like that at all to me or the people who were actually there. To the people that enjoy him, many of whom actually still exist and thrive and whom you might immediately groove with, if you met them at the market, not a single one of Kelly's adjectives is remotely accurate. They might apply to Mussolini, James Baker or Margeret Thatcher but Maharaji....get a grip...at that point it starts to sound like you have clearly forgotten the character you're talking about and have created a mythical scapegoat and bogeyman based on distance and doubt. There's no connection to reality, just a strange syndrome which could be named, Reverse Wishful Thinking. I'm sure some clever critter will find a way to work Rawat into that acronym. My gut instinct tells me, that to Kelly or anyone else who is attempting to view Maharaji (or anybody else, for that matter, including husband or friend) through a cloud of distance, babble, suspicion and doubt, he could say, 'how're you doin', Kelly?' or 'good morning' and it might immediately assume equally demonic and sinister properties. To someone who's been around him recently and who's heard and felt where he is, it all sounds more than a little silly. And self-righteous. And severely skewed, distorted and spun ...worse than a Republican picnic (with lotsa flags and overcooked burgers). Just an observation. Have fun.

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:10:31 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: You are really a piece of work.. Message:

Especially the feeling, which still, in the 21st century, means more than 2/3 of the words Whose feeling, Chad? Yours, or Kelly's and why, tell me, is yours any more valid than hers. (I guess not so) needless to say, it didn't feel like that at all to me or the people who were actually there And just how do you know how 'the people who were actually there' were feeling? Are you omniscent? Are you deluded? Engaging in magical thinking? at that point it starts to sound like you have clearly forgotten the character you're talking about and have created a mythical scapegoat and bogeyman based on distance and doubt. And who have YOU created, Danny? Are you so egotistical that you think YOU are seeing Maharaji for what he really is, but people who see him as an egomaniacal fraud aren't? Why don't you try and use your brain and just admit you DISAGREE with Kelly, instead of trying to pontificate on what is reality, you pompous ass? Read the Vedas lately, Danny. You always seemed to be gloating about how spiritual and high you were, perhaps that hasn't changed. Who is sounding silly and self-righteous, or perhaps is in the cult?

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Date: Wed, Dec 20, 2000 at 01:52:08 (GMT) From: Chad Email: None To: Joe Subject: Danny? Message:

Who are you talking to?

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 22:01:06 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: Fuck off Danny , your paw prints are all over Message:

this here Chad. Just as well you weren't counting the votes.

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 17:50:59 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: A few non-cautionary questions for chad... Message:

Chad-I was wondering if you would care to comment on maharaji's off stage behavior...do you know about it?...can you make sense of it?...are you afraid to look at it?...does it seem to jive with the satsang he gives?...would you have the balls to ask maharaji some of these questions?...do you think you would ever be given the chance , by him, to do so?(don't say he doesn't have the time-he could easily make a one hour video addressing everyone's complaints and issues about his actions...it would take him about, let's say, one hour,right? that's if he really wanted to...)...are you comfortable with introducing maharaji to new people, giving them the nice clean message about knowledge and the master, but conveniently leaving out the drugs and alcohol addictions, mistresses, abortions,funny-money(lots of this),mansions,yachts,jets,needless cars,wierd power tripping and game playing he does with close devotees, general lying by attempting to revise the past about playing God...ALL OF THIS, courtesy of your friendly master, financed by YOU, the unsuspecting new student, through your donations to an organization you are led to believe will bring world peace, but which has a drop out rate of 90-95% so far, and these were his supporters! You might be hanging now, Chad, but if you open your real eyes and ears and heart, something somewhere is gonna punch you through...through to the other side where you can finally be free to see for yourself, think for yourself, feel for yourself,be yourself, know yourself...all by yourself...courtesy of your friendly OWN SELF!

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:39:21 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: A small, cautionary note Message:

Chad, I’m glad you’re hanging, does it hurt? I expected this sort of reaction. Have you read my post below entitled “My take on your take.Brilliant.” If not, I wish you would do. In it, I try to imagine how a fully dedicated, fully deluded premie might respond. (I was one only a short time ago) They’d be sure to say that I’d been selective and taken things out of context. So I made it clear that this was a video of a recent satellite broadcast. No I wasn’t there, but I still have a copy of the video. It was the most heavily edited, chopped about video I have ever seen, and I’ve seen a few! So who’s being selective? Visions do it all the time. M certainly does it. He doesn’t want us to see the real man behind the stage persona. The man who still tells obscene and offensive jokes, and I’ve heard a few of those. The mistresses, the cognac and the cigars, the rudeness and the bad temper. No, he doesn’t want us to see that! Anyway, I digress. The point is that the passages I chose were straight un-cut sequences, and when I missed a bit out, I said so. Also, I was punctilious to transcribe them accurately…They are verbatim. The Man Is Condemned Out Of His Own Mouth So we sound “silly and self-righteous” do we? And” severely skewed, distorted and spun” I can’t believe you said that. Didn’t you hear him? All that stuff about the, mahatmas bringing the concepts, like he had nothing to do with it? And ownership of knowledge? Can you really go along with all that? You can’t have heard him. Maybe you’re one of those blind faithers who just let his words wash over them. (The starry eyed syndrome.) Maharaji is the Master of Spin. Kelly

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:08:48 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Chad (just hangin') Subject: Cautionary? Who sends veiled threats here? Message:

Dear Chad, I have copied your post and inserted my repsonses to you carrotted for easy reading: Not to disturb anyone's entertainment but... >Just the fact that you suggest this is primarily 'entertaining' shows me that you don't feel something very important, something that you would take VERY seriously and feel very much if you were in some of their shoes. You might factor in that you're (in this thread) responding so vehemently and self-righteously to what? >Maybe what you call vehemence is called for and justified here. (Vehemence: having or showing strong feeling, showing strong feeling). But self-righteous? You definitely have the lock on that. You present yourself in anonymity and drop a veiled threat by using the word 'cautionary'. What should we be cautious of? Having strong feelings about our life experience? God forbid. ....a skewed, selective, subjective, somewhat misquoted and fun-house mirror rendition of an address you didn't actually hear or see. (Do you so passionately and authoritatively review Bruce Willis movies, based on somebody else's reaction?) Not to mention that, to this observer, the context, vibe, meaning and tone were entirely different than what was described here. Especially the feeling, which still, in the 21st century, means more than 2/3 of the words. Citing cases (Aristotle, da Vinci, Einstein, Jesus, Ram, Miles Davis, King, Dylan, Lennon, Zoroaster, Zorro, Shakespeare, Hendrix, Jefferson and Pythagoras). WIS 33155B >So everyone who doesn't hear what you hear is wrong.... I respectfully dissent. >Your words say 'I respectfully dissent', but the other 2/3 of your communication, as I hear it, says more on the line of 'You creep low-lifes suck, and I'm here to straighten you out.' From Kelly's perspective, 'all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him.' Just as, to Michael Dettmers, jokes from 22 years ago have now, in the year 2000 (somewhere between May and October) apparently become insensitive and hurtful. >Chad, you've been hangin' too long. You are not on and not off. You are just hangin'...what was a little joke of yours turns out to be where you seem to be really and truly at. In reply to your last misuse and abuse of the English language, when people are under the rule of a Master, when people have vowed their lives to him, given the 'reins of their lives' to him, some gravity gets created. Intertia sets in. People stop believing their own God-given transmissions of consciousness and inner experience and become mentally and psychically subordinate. I don't think that is the intended result, but it happens and we all know it. So basically, how can you question Michael Dettmers or anyone else who has come to a realization, no matter how long it took. The folks here are being very here and now about how they feel. If you seek to find orchestration of words, people and events, I suggest you look elsewhere. And I assure you that if you ever have a realization that took you years to discover, I will not bust your chops over it. (I guess not so) needless to say, it didn't feel like that at all to me or the people who were actually there. >Scuze me, did you take an exit poll of how people really and truly felt in their gut, or are you assuming that the smiles were all genuine and they obiviously showed all the same response? You can only speak for yourself, Chad. I respect your right to your feelings. Why can't you respect others' rights to theirs? We all need to be cautious, not just dissenters. To the people that enjoy him, many of whom actually still exist and thrive and whom you might immediately groove with, if you met them at the market, not a single one of Kelly's adjectives is remotely accurate. >The beauty was, is and always will be in the eye of the beholder. They might apply to Mussolini, James Baker or Margeret Thatcher >There are supporters of all those above-mentioned personalities who would advise YOU to be cautious here, Chad. but Maharaji....get a grip...at that point it starts to sound like you have clearly forgotten the character you're talking about and have created a mythical scapegoat and bogeyman based on distance and doubt. >...You mean like how Maharaji blamed the mahatmas who came west first for all the misunderstandings? >Chad, there is obviously something going on here that needs closer scrutiny than you seem to have given it. To many, Maharaji can do no wrong, is godlike in nature, and brings hope to the world for peace on an individual level, hopefully spreading person by person throughout the world. To others, Maharaji is someone who has said very strong things to attract a following, then has denied saying them, has blamed all the basic misunderstandings on his mahatmas, and has There's no connection to reality, just a strange syndrome which could be named, Reverse Wishful Thinking. I'm sure some clever critter will find a way to work Rawat into that acronym. >There's no connection to your reality maybe. But have you no respect of anyone else but yourself? Check out Voltaire and waht he said about rights and disagreements. And your cynicism and negativity in your comments about 'reverse wishful thinking' a 'some clever critter yadda yadda yadda..' just salts the wounds and does not acknowledge anyone's feelings but your own cynical ones. Humility and compassion are what I wish for you to receive this Christmas. My gut instinct tells me, that to Kelly or anyone else who is attempting to view Maharaji (or anybody else, for that matter, including husband or friend) through a cloud of distance, babble, suspicion and doubt, he could say, 'how're you doin', Kelly?' or 'good morning' and it might immediately assume equally demonic and sinister properties. >Maharaji once said there's him and then there's everybody else. I don't think you can fairly compare him to anyone else in terms of influence or power over someone. And like you said, 2/3 of the communication is unspoken. So there are many thousands of people running around this world with very different feelings (aside from the Knowledge and its beautiful experience), about Maharaji. If you are you, you feel how you feel. If you are Susan or Abi, or Abi's dad, or any number of young blonde female premies, you might feel different. If you were Michael Dettmers, you'd feel differently too. One size does not fit all. To someone who's been around him recently and who's heard and felt where he is, it all sounds more than a little silly. And self-righteous. And severely skewed, distorted and spun ...worse than a Republican picnic (with lotsa flags and overcooked burgers). >Do you contribute money to him or the organizations which do the administrative work such as EV? If you were 'around him', chances are your pockets are deeper than mine. Also, different people have different experiences with the same person. Haven't you ever had two friends who don't get along? >As for the 'being there' aspect of Maharaji and how folks who were not somewhere should not judge, etc....I remember him saying that if someone is attuned to him, distance doesn't matter...crosses bone, crosses flesh, crosses miles..remember? >I used to be giving satsang to friends in one city while Maharaji was having a program far away and after hearing what he talked about, it was uncanny how what I was saying was so much similar to what he was saying, down to subjects and such. I was resonating with him and it felt great. I don't feel that much lately,and I don't think I am the only one who has changed. Just an observation. >Yeah, me too. Sandy PS Why the anonymity if you are so connected?

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 08:02:50 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: shp Subject: I applaud your integrity Sandy nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 16:52:07 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: shp Subject: I applaud your integrity Sandy and double it! Message:

Sandy, great posts,I've printed them out to read again in detail. Talk to you soon. love Kelly

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:31:49 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: shp Subject: Elaine + you have GOT to read the shp's post! (nt) Message:

wow

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 05:35:50 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Stonor Subject: shouldn't be 'the' - not 'the post above' (nt) Message:

shp's post

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 03:20:25 (GMT) From: Gordon Showcase Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe - he's right Message:

Maharaji's right. This careless talk really is dangerous and it's costing Maharaji millions of dollars a year in lost revenue. Do you people want to be responsible for ruining this poor man's financial empire which has taken him decades of hard slog to build up? You might all be a bunch of loosers and winers but Maharaji's a winner and doesn't need these complete idiots talking about him and his knowledge. Just because these morons have received his divine knowledge, they think they actually know something and have the God given right to spout forth their ridiculous views to the world. The truth is, Maharaji knows he's given this knowledge to a bunch of lowlife, mental retards because those are the sort of people who'll believe him and now he has to somehow shut them up before they do serious damage to his real and very important finances. I mean, what do these stupid premies know about wealth and finance - they all have their heads stuck in some pathetic ideal of peace and love. So for goodness sake, premies - shut up and listen to the friendly master and stop talking about Maharaji or knowledge and realise that you're pig ignorant and are of limited use to the master. He can do all this without you, you know. He doesn't need the likes of you to help him spread this knowledge. If he gives you a job of opening a door, then that is all you're fit for and you should desist in this idiotic notion that you can talk to people about anything to do with your so called 'experience'. Your experience is nothing. You know nothing and it's very dangerous to think otherwise.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 09:23:43 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe - he's right Message:

What have we got here? The world has just been put on notice that THE MASTER is about to change the rules and move the ends of the playing field. Funny how the opportunity for personal experience gets smaller and smaller with each turn. Used to be we could at least participate in an invigorating attempt to publicly convey our thoughts and experiences through nightly Satsang. Although much of the time there was spent listening to drivel some folks actually got very good at expressing themselves and inspiring others. Is this where things went wrong? inspiration and experience have no Master, and it would not be in the best interest of M for anyone of the lowly peons in the cheap seats to find that out. Who knows they might even garner a following of their own and erode away at the economic base. I personally know a man (not a former premie) who has about 50 followers who revere his every word and request. Small potatoes compared to M but still a comfortable living. And how about Jan Cox, http://www.jancox.com/ at least he does not claim license to to the keys to the kingdom. How can anyone claim ownership to enlightenment? There are so many places that exist right now that one can go and get these same techniques. Amoung others, Namely his Brother, M alone does not have a corner on the knowledge market. I would have a lot more respect for him if he would just say, I am just selling my brand of knowledge, you can try brand X but we have a 65% market share and our brand is very competitive when it come to results. Or something that, at least we would be informed consumers. If attachments are the curse to enlightenment, then giving up the attachment to Maharaji, or anyone like him, is a step along the way to liberation

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 13:52:30 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: brian too Subject: Exsuse Message:

Sorry to interrupt, but last time I saw you, you were crying murder. I have seen your other posts, but have not had the chance to read them. Can you update me as to where you're standing, Salam wondering why rawat sucks.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:38:55 (GMT) From: sucha Email: None To: Salam Subject: He's finding own path:now obstacle disappearing(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:13:34 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: Salam Subject: just looking at Message:

both sides,

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Date: Tues, Dec 19, 2000 at 00:11:30 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: brian too Subject: There are no both sides Message:

It is all lila. Maharaji is maya, an illusion, a mind, you need to focus and understand. Do not meditate, it mushes up your heads. Have a beer instead. You probably thinking oh yeah, but I am sounding like a devil. Bloody right. I am temptation, corruption, guru ass kicker and hater of lies. Do not take your time, it is not worth it. Look at it this way. Even if the guru is for real, so what? You won't understand nothing anyway, so why bother. Ask yourself, what do you want from him that you do not already know. It is all layed out straight in front of you. I think that if you read the other parts on this site, you will understand in a short period of few days a lot lot more that you understood in all your time being a zombie chasing after groomji. Can you tell me if he is capable of saving anything accept his ass. What is he saving you from? Do you really think that you can survive in this time without using your mind, you use it all the time, when you wake up, take a shower, read a paper, talk to someone,at work and fuck someone. You really think your getting peace out of no-lije? Come off it, if you did, then you should not be reading this. Maharaji is not god, perfect master or a teacher. He is only an ex-Indian home made guru. There are plenty around and they all claim to be the ONE and speak the same language. Do you really think that he knows that you even exist? Do you think that he care about you? For me there is not doubt about it, he has no idea. He is obssessed with the idea of bring peace and understanding to this world, his way. Because he thinks that he is right everyone else is wrong. He is after power and prestige. He can not face the truth that he is a failiar when it come to it. Well that was a good rap, don't you think so. Salam

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 04:31:19 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Gordon Showcase Subject: Right On Brother - You Tell Em nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 01:10:39 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Miragey's recent diatribe - my take. Message:

'Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master.' The dictionary says: Compliments =' An expression of formal respect, civility. A present'. Thus Maharaji says, Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are a given by him (to aspirants and premies) civilly and respectfully. As he goes on it becomes harder to see exactly where the civility and respect part comes in. 'The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening.' He is the one controlling the giving out of Knowledge and he can stop doing that whenever he likes. There is a veiled threat that he may withold giving Knowledge if anything (such as actions by the premies listening) give him cause to do so. If Knowledge sessions stop of course that’s bad. Thus he engenders fear in the audience who are acutely anxious that it not be their actions or mistakes which lead to him making this clearly dreadful decision. 'The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes.' He can do as he likes and his pupils live in an uncertain world. This is clearly not a ‘master’ in the healthy sense of the word. It is well known that growing children (which could be said to analogous of pupils of a master) need an environment where their limits are well defined. A household where the father is always domineeringly changing the rules undermines the confidence and security of the children. The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause) Tries to soften the unfriendly implications of his speech by absurdly suggesting that he is being friendly. Now, I’m not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested who make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments. Belittles the fact that it is hugely thanks to the tireless and dedicated work of followers that he is able to do any of this. He wants to disempower them in the equation completely and empower himself above all. 'The Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If you’re borrowing your neighbour’s car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back.' It is NOT your right to talk about Knowledge. That is what without any shadow of doubt he is saying here. This is very disturbing as it implies that he wants to control what people say about their own inner experience. Are we to suppose also that this Knowledge, which is within inside us is borrowed ? that our life itself – our very existence is borrowed ?? from him? What kind of a gift is it that someone gives you that you have no right to talk about??? It is a gift with the condition that you follow rules which change at his whim and you must not talk about if he tells you not to. Of course the Knowledge techniques are the prime secret that you are beholden to him to keep. The right to talk about it is stressed as being a privilege that may be removed at a moments notice. 'You have to realize….Ownership of knowledge resides with the Master…Hearing about knowledge is a privilege….Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege.…Receiving knowledge is a privilege…Being able to practice knowledge is a privilege…..Being able to participate is a privilege.' (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling) He owns your experience. Great. You are beholden to him. The experience of your own Life Force is NOT YOUR RIGHT. It is not a human being’s birthright to know their God, but a privilege that is LENT to him , without any assurance that he can even speak about it, by this incontrovertibly imperfect man , who clearly claims that he is the Perfect Master. Another extract entitled 'A little History' Perhaps 'A little revisionism' would have been more apt. ' When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it.' Yes, and he tried SO HARD to stop it didn’t he? The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Poor Maharaji had to suffer because all the mahatmas misrepresented him and Knowledge. All by himself, I think he may be trying to illicit a little symapathy here. Premies will give him heaps. 'How could we have allowed him to be so put out?' Time to get the flagellatory whips out. I’m sorry, but this line of blaming the Indian Mahatmas is grossly unfair. You only have to read Maharaji’s father’s satsang speeches and you can see where all the Indian concepts came from. Also it would not be hard to prove, by dredging up Maharaji’s own early speeches, that he brought 99% of those ‘immeasurable concepts' to the West himself. He whose every word all premie’s took as gospel . He who clearly said that we should dedicate our lives to him in the Ashram –be celibate (rule one) –be vegetarian (rule 2) – etc. etc. Anyway, so these immeasurable concepts… What is he talking about exactly? – and tell me someone please – what did the poor old Mahatmas tell us that was so frightful –Mine just told me to meditate exactly as Maharaji himself prescribed and to do everything else M aharaji demanded himself endlessly. Nothing more that I recall. So Maharaji’s revisionism fails to impress me a jot. In fact I am appalled at his lack of taking any responsibility for what he actually demanded from us back then. 'Because people would ask me point blank these questions…' Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that' He must be referring to the recurrent'Do you say you’re God? You’re followers say you are' question. Well, clearly one can see that the ‘Master’ whom he describes is unmistably ‘God-like' given his extraordinary powers and claimed authority. Next he’ll be saying 'I never said I’m a Master' and accusing premies of misrepresenting him! '… the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we’re still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts.' Well. He’s hardly helping his defence by spitting out the sort of thing that he has apparently said - if these little extracts are anything to go by. I think he really badly needs to go a lot further than just saying 'No, these things are not true'. OK, so he finds it pathetic to have to be answerable to criticism (which does not reasonably amount to attack - let’s be clear about this) . But he needs to go further and prove that these things are not true. Not just simply claim 'they’re not true!' Also, if he finds himself 'in a hole' and feels ‘under attack’ merely because some of his past, undoubtedly sincere followers want some straight answers then what is so ‘pathetic’ about showing them a little deserved empathy and apologising to them for subjecting them to so many unreasonable ‘hinduistic’ demands? 'Knowledge works…look, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and it’s great. It all works.' Yes, and my experience of late is that the meditation part works well without the Master bit. Sure the devotion and surrender stuff works well in the right environment. A closed environment where it’s easy to brainwash people. Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination…. Uhoh…he’s sounding cross now. It’s the Mafioso Boss warning his hoods not to squeal. We’re definitely talking in terms of someone who feels that they are in a ‘war of opposing sides’ here… Remember the World War Two slogan , urging the populace of the dangers of idle chat because Hitler’s spies were rife –'Careless talk costs lives' I believe that in Germany at this time the warning had a more threatening tone in that if you were judged responsible for such indiscretions you could be shot or hung. Maharaji says that if you betray him in any way you’re ' not innocent' ie YOU'RE GUILTY. He leaves it to the poor intimidated premie to imagine what might be the punishment for this crime. 'What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes….. Deadly dangerous??!! No tolerance for mistakes? Not even a weeny bit? I think he waxing a bit melodramatic here. How many blissed out premies that you have met have said something 'deadly dangerous’ ?? Deadly boring maybe, but life threateningly dangerous –hardly. What does he want-People to be so worried about saying what they feel that all they are permitted to do is spout some safe party line? 'What do you think? .Does this far of the history make any sense?' Excuse me, did I hear correctly? did you ask me for my opinion?? I suppose, at this point in the proceedings, a dozen hands shot up and people had the chance to respond to this rare opportunity to answer Maharaji – 'No, it doesn’t make sense O Master. Actually I was rather wondering if you could explain a little problem I have about…' Of course not. This is not a real question. One that you are allowed to actually answer. You are merely supposed to nod assentingly and silently – indeed like so many sheep. 'And why I’m bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. There’s a lot more of you than there were of them…..Comprende?…..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I don’t want to be in those shoes. I don’t think these mistakes have to happen and I don’t think these mistakes need to be there' It sounds to me like he’s bringing this up because he’s afraid that if premies will again put him in the situation where he will have to ‘defend’ himself. Against what? Some simple questions? The situation where he may be called upon to answer some simple straightforward questions seems to fill him with dread. This suggests that he has no answers. So all the premies are very likely going to screw things up royally for Maharaji given half the chance. He clearly doesn’t want people to talk about Knowledge or at least he is extremely paranoid that people are going to fatally misrepresent him and Knowledge. This is neither respecful or civil. Why? Because it suggests that those people who have Knowledge are so stupid that they cannot possibly say anything sensible about it. (even though they have supposedly experienced it) Worse, they are more likely to be so off-base that they will cause some ‘deadly’ repercussions. Maharaji is counting on people giving him the benefit of the doubt and that they will see this ‘warning’ as a demonstration of how ‘seriously’ he takes his job as Master and how he is reproving all his flippant, loose tongued followers who are jeopardising his work and how kind he is to let them play even a tiny little part in his work. No matter how you read it, this is a warning to keep the secrets. I’m probably too generous in my analysis of Maharaji’s words. Here’s what my dear innocent non- premie wife said when I read her the extracts. 'Megalomaniac! Who does he think he is? He’s got this thing called Knowledge. Once you’ve given something to someone, you can’t rule their lives and tell them what to do with it and who they can talk to about it! He wants to control people. He feels threatened and scared.'

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:16:54 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Patrick Subject: My Take Message:

How can he say that showing you You is his possession? This is crazy talk. C.G.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 16:49:58 (GMT) From: Mary Email: None To: Patrick Subject: Here's the deal Maharaji Message:

'When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it.' The backlash of that, I had to directly bear' You came over here to the good ole US of A and worked a simple con game. It worked well. You married an American, got your green card, got citizenship, set up your tax-free duty shop and began to rake in the big bucks. What a great country. Now it is time to pay for your sins. You told us that you were the incarnate of God in Human form. You let us call you the Lord of the Universe, you promised us ever lasting peace. Now you are backpedaling. You are running scared. Yes, Maharaji, YOU did do that. You are not a victim. You are the perpetrator. You have violated us. And now you tell us you can take back our knowledge if you want to. Fine. You are a true Indian Giver. You cannot have mine back, it works fine for me without you. I am out of here.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 19:08:32 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Mary Subject: Maharaji's a disgrace to India Message:

Now a lot of people have come from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to live in the West. Most of them are not cheap con merchants and most intergrate very well into our culture. However, Maharaji does the Indian nation a great injustice. Fact is, whenever I've mentioned Maharaji to the friends I have from the Indian subcontinent, they always talk about maharaji with great dislike for the way he has conned people over here with his brand of Eastern religion. In India there are many more like him. He got a foothold because he was the child guru. Most Indian people here see these gurus as being just money makers and sharks who seek out unsuspecting naive Westerners to make a killing.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:25:12 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Gives E.Indians a bad name Message:

Dear Sir Dave & All, This is really true. Only last Saturday someone was telling me of an Indian salesman who was a really nice guy but no-one would trust him because they associated him with E.Indian tricksters. This poor guy had lost his business and his family were having tough times because of it. The Headmaster at my child's school is E. Indian and I'm even beginning to think he's just in it for the money whereas before I used to like all E.Indians because they were like M (Yuk!) This is unfortunate. C.G.

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 21:10:33 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir Dave: Maharaji's a disgrace to the planet! nt Message:

mm

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:37:18 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mary Subject: Here's the deal Maharaji--great post! Message:

A true ''Indian Giver.'' I don't like the expression, but for goomraji, it fits fine, seeing he's from the country India. It isn't just knowledge he threatens to withhold, the deeper implication, and old premies know it, is that he has their lives in his control. What a con artist is right. So, Maharaji, stuck in your delusions of grandeur? Well, we all know your opulent lifestyle is real, what about who you are, M? Do you have the tiniest clue? You are a pathetic example of a human being, and that's a stretch. You never said you were to be worshipped as Lord. 'kay, cheater and Deceiver. 'member, lord, when you dressed up as Krishna and wore that crown??? Btw, where is your crown, Maharaji? What happened to those precious stones? I ask because you'd better start counting your precious stash of expensive stuff, there's a few Jagdeo victims who remain uncompensated. Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 17:19:28 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Mary Subject: Spot on, a true Indian Giver! nt Message:

You can keep it

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Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 at 13:15:19 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Patrick Subject: My take on your take. Brilliant Message:

Hi Patrick That’s pretty much exactly what I thought, but I could never have articulated it so brilliantly. You did a good job. And isn’t it all so blatantly, glaringly obvious? Well it is now! I’ve been wondering what a fully dedicated, fully deluded premie would say about it all. I know one who said “ it was wonderful, he made it all so clear.” Whaaat? Well, he certainly made things clear to me! They would probably say that I’ve taken these extracts out of context and that you need to hear the rest of it, like where he says “I don’t want to put words in your mouth.” etc. etc….. In fact this particular satellite broadcast was the most heavily edited and cut to pieces I have ever seen. You can’t trust anything so crudely and obviously assembled. But that’s what they do all the time at Visions. So that is why I stressed that the passages I transcribed were straight uncut sequences, and when I missed a bit I said so. The whole broadcast was full of similar dreadful rubbish and riddled with contradictions. I’m used to him contradicting himself but here he was doing it in the next breath almost. Here is another extract:- Maharaji…. “Let me put it very simply. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? That’s the real question, are you comfortable with that? Because if you’re not, you’re gonna sit half way, half baked, between the belief system and what Knowledge needs. Until that happens, the history can never really be cleared up, because it still lives in that era. The shade of darkness still looms” Joe, who posted below, asked “what the hell is he talking about?” and he’s right, you have to be very familiar with the way he talks, or you don’t get all the implications. But here, I really am stumped! “Maharaji is Maharaji” What the hell is he talking about? Perhaps you can interpret? If your friend seriously wants to study this further, I could send you a copy of the tape. All the best Kelly

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 18:14:58 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Kelly Subject: My Take Message:

He is saying the same bullshit he always did, and here is my take on it. When he says. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? That’s the real question, are you comfortable with that? This is the new version of his old commandment to NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND. When it comes to Maharaji, accept everything, never judge, never think, never evaluate, just surrender. And if you aren't comfortable with not using your brain, you are a failure. This is cult, cult, cult, language. If you doubt, think or evaluate, it all falls apart, because, since he isn't offering anything except a personality cult, it can't stand up to the light of day if you look at it objectively. Because if you’re not, you’re gonna sit half way, half baked, between the belief system and what Knowledge needs. Until that happens, the history can never really be cleared up, because it still lives in that era. The shade of darkness still looms” This is the new version of 'rotting vegetables' and 'breaking into a thousand pieces,' which were his threats of doom that will happen to a premie who has the gall to think, notice the contradictions, listen to their own better judgment, etc. But it is funny to think that Maharaji actually believes that if you just don't talk about Maharaji, that all the stuff he said and did in his Lord of the Universe period will go away. You really are an idiot Maharaji if you think that's true. The only possible way that Maharaji can deal with his very embarrassing past is to face it, take responsbility for it, and answer the hard questions he avoids by just telling everyone not to think.

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Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 19:39:45 (GMT) From: C.G. Email: None To: Joe Subject: Equating M with K - big mistake! Message:

This wrong equasion is what makes M millions of U.S. dollars every year, and he's sticking to it even though he KNOWS it's wrong. The reason he is sticking to this one and not changing it is because he has become addicted to the Hi life. And no, premies I don't mean the High Life I mean that phoney Hi life that is dependent on stuff, things, toys and hi- consumerism that we all get fed up with at Christmas time. Every day is like this consumer Xmas for M. He's become a couch