suchabanana -:- EXITING THE MIRAGEY CULT: -:- Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 14:31:20 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- *** BEST OF FORUM, Swamiji*** [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 17:48:20 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Nice touch, very well written Lil OL Swami -:- Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 22:08:20 (EST)

__ Marshall -:- Re: EXITING THE MIRAGEY CULT: -:- Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 21:02:35 (EST)

__ __ such -:- thanks, Brian and Marshall -:- Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 00:40:57 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- Or alternatively -:- Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 19:03:02 (EST)

__ __ such -:- sure, whatever ales ye -:- Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 23:48:55 (EST)

__ __ __ such -:- ham, do you understand English???? -:- Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 00:21:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Shame we didn't all listen to Zappa -:- Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 16:53:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: Shame we didn't all listen to Zappa -:- Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 22:10:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Re: Shame we didn't all listen to Zappa -:- Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 01:11:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- ok then, Piss off, PUNK TROLL! -:- Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 18:55:21 (EST)

Date: Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 14:31:20 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EXITING THE MIRAGEY CULT:
Message:

EXITING THE MIRAGEY CULT:

When a longtime premie [pwk] sees the information posted on this site, here are some typical reactions/patterns: initial disbelief, dismissal, justification, and anger, denial, then maybe some curiosity, then upon further investigation: shock, pain, sense of betrayal, anger, bitterness, sadness, then a sense of a veil being removed from one's eyes, a burden being released, gradually a newfound freedom, a sense of growing self-awareness and discovery, self-esteem, and a desire to experience more out of life that was missing or previously denied.

Probably most of the people who post here have been through the steady process of cult scrutiny, then detachment and a personal reexamination - and the accompanying initial shock, the anger, the tears, probably despair, bitterness, sense of loss and waste in one's life, gut or chest pains, feelings of alienation, and so forth.

Especially for the premie longtimers, confronting the dirty hidden skeletons in the cult closet and the money trail [at least the parts that haven't been erased or laundered] begins what can be a difficult but liberating process.

First, some of us invested a huge chunk of our adult lives in the cult belief system surrounding m.'s personality cult. Some of us sacrificed the allegedly worthless illusions of careers and relationships, perhaps lived in ashrams, regularly gave hard-earned money that could have been better spent on ourselves or poor families, spent thousands of evenings at indoctrinating cult events, framed our life cosmology around dysfunctional miragey as the central concept-maker and worldly authority figure, and gave him the kind of unbridled love and devotion truly only worthy of the real God [or life energy] residing within each of us ourselves.
It's just like a divorce - takes some emotional detachment [the breaking of binding strings], healing, and a lil' time for oneself in that process.

Giving blind devotion to m. for years has engendered a false sense of learned helplessness and has perpetuated a co-dependent relationship on the part of many people, whereby thousands of premies have been enabling his own dysfunctional life and addiction to gross materialism [the maya] at the expense of their own lives and destinies and the fulfillment of personal goals.

You are a unique person, after all, and you have your own essence. Cultivate your talents and interests. Be kind to yourself each day. Spend some time with supportive friends or people with whom you can be yourself - without outside pressure.

Chuck out or store in a box out of the way [attic or garage or crawlspace], the photos, literature and vids etc. which just remind one continually of the personality cult.

If you want to acknowledge a higher power within, do what is comfortable for You now. You can meditate, or not. After a few weeks [or months], you'll be surprised how removed the guru seems from your experience of a direct inner relationship with your personal creator - no intermediary in between. We each come into this world by ourselves, and we leave it that way. But, don't feel lonely - because the universal life energy within you is taking care of you right now.

There is also a gentler forum for recent exes or people leaving the cult. You can email the forum administrator for info. Sometimes an internet forum [people] can be a bit harsh, although I think most people here are quite supportive of those in your situation.

Situational counselling may be helpful, too, from a certified medical/mental health professional [who is not also involved with some cult or trip]. Lots of ex-premies have done it. I would seriously recommend finding a good certified mental health counsellor (with Ph.D. or at least M.A.), preferably one who is somewhat knowledgeable in this field of cult detachment [but one who is Not attached to any cult or religious trip]. There are some self-help books that help, pertaining to codependency, personal space, setting personal boundaries, respecting oneself, etc. Lots of longtime premies seem sad -- for good reason. They have suffered and endured a life of emotional deprival and suppression of their own unique essences, dreams, and intellects, in many respects. Their lives have been sublimated and sacrificed at the altar of miragey's Napoleonic gluttony.

Get plenty of exercise - that helps with any temporary depression. Walks, hikes, jogging, biking, aerobics, hatha yoga, stretching, weight training, dancing, etc.

Some natural herbs and teas are helpful when dealing with the depression that may accompany the cult exit.

I have personally found that peaceful pretty instrumental music, healthy meals, regular exercise, spending time in nature or just gardening, a support network of empathetic friends, and prayer [or faith in one's own intuition and new horizons] help.

I would also suggest making and taking some time for special new experiences and pleasant or interesting excursions, finding a new vitality and joy in the simple everyday pleasures of existence, discovering and nurturing latent talents, professional and personal interests, and sharing new adventures together with your family or friends.

So, take a lil' time each day to treat yourself to at least one special or fun thing - go buy a bagel or cappucino [for instance], or select an interesting paperback book, watch a funny movie, go to an art museum, buy a new top, get your nails done, get a new plant, go someplace new, paint a picture, write or learn a song, take a college or recreational class that appeals to you.

If you are in a personal relationship, discuss your feelings with your partner. Give and receive lots of hugs with your family and friends.
Pretty soon -- you may be feeling great! Right now, sure it hurts. But, don't let the cult b.s. get the better of you - you are a survivor, after all. You've got time now to appreciate things and interests you may have neglected or missed in your life - or not considered before. Look at this moment as an opportunity for you to recover and to reclaim your life - with all the opportunities and choices out there up to you. You are then really free, as a human being - knowing, trusting your intuition and intelligence, stronger, mentally and physically healthier, wiser, growing anew each and every day.
Yes, it gets a whole lot better - with untold opportunities awaiting you each unfolding day.

That having been said about miragey [master of the mirage]. I finally had to forgive him, because the anger and bitterness of betrayal was a terrible burden for me to carry around anymore. However, I hold him and the organization accountable for a number of things that have affected the premies and their families, and there must be full disclosure and responsibility accepted. (Certainly, some harm has been perpetuated and passed along to another innocent generation - premie children.)

It definitely gets a whole lot better progressively - within weeks. You'll be amazed at how strong and secure within yourself you may feel within a few months, too, rediscovering new or revived interests, new outlooks and epiphanies, opening up to new friends and a whole infinite spectrum of life without cult blinders and concepts -- as each layer of unhealthy conditioning, erroneous mental and emotional impressions [samsaras] is peeled away, revealing you in all your specialness as your own person.

Peace and lentils,

da lil swami

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Date: Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 17:48:20 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: *** BEST OF FORUM, Swamiji*** [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 22:08:20 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Nice touch, very well written Lil OL Swami
Message:

Nice touch such, good advice, a very well written summary of the entire exiting process.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 21:02:35 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: EXITING THE MIRAGEY CULT:
Message:

I feel that that was a well thought out, nicely written and helpful message for freshly exiting cultmembers.
Sometimes the gentle approach is what's called for, especially in a situation as delicate as realizing you've basically had your head up your a___ for several decades.

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Date: Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 00:40:57 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: thanks, Brian and Marshall
Message:

I feel that that was a well thought out, nicely written and helpful message for freshly exiting cultmembers.
Sometimes the gentle approach is what's called for, especially in a situation as delicate as realizing you've basically had your head up your a___ for several decades.


---

Hi Marshall,

yeah, + I sure wouldn't want to freak out anyone already approaching the outer limits of depression or despair, etc., when she/he was asking us for some help.

I went through some heavy changes, too, believe me -- when I first awakened - and realised what maha's gig was really about.

Peace and lentils,

swami j. suchabanana

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Date: Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 19:03:02 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Or alternatively
Message:

Go wild, let it all out, get really FUCKING angry, and let rip.

Whatever turns you on

Sorry such, but 'excursions', jesus
and as for the peace and lentils, well as a veggie for 30 years I'm thinking of bacon sarnies.

Sorry matey, but you make it all sound so pious, when it can also be a scarifying hell-raiser release trip, whatever turns you on I guess.
For myself I would have been finished without the intensity of house music and alternative raves, a place of real satsang on the dancefloor.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 27, 2001 at 23:48:55 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: sure, whatever ales ye
Message:

Go wild, let it all out, get really FUCKING angry, and let rip.

Whatever turns you on

Sorry such, but 'excursions', jesus
and as for the peace and lentils, well as a veggie for 30 years I'm thinking of bacon sarnies.

Sorry matey, but you make it all sound so pious, when it can also be a scarifying hell-raiser release trip, whatever turns you on I guess.
For myself I would have been finished without the intensity of house music and alternative raves, a place of real satsang on the dancefloor.


---

Dear pigpen [er, hamzen, 'sorry matey'],

Jeepers, I think an occasional amber ale works just fine, too, and have been known to resort to my own 'house music' -- i.e. partying with my professional musician friends in the wee hours at jam sessions in my lil swami cave.

hey, pie-us ['pious'] used to be my middle name [i.e. cult ritualized s,s & m]. hohoho! yep, different strokes, fer sure. [Speaking of Pius XII: 'The pope smokes dope, God gave him the grass, the pope smokes dope, he likes to smoke in mass, the pope smokes dope, he's a groovy head...']

(btw, I originally wrote various sections of the post [above] for 2 different women seeking serious help/advice, who were apparently feeling pretty darned despondent at the time. Accordingly, I was trying to be as responsible and careful as possible.)

r.e. feeling angry? sure, that, too. Good to get that outa one's system - without harming others, in the process.

as for bacon samies -- that's exactly what Lardo did to the phlegmies; he fattened himself at the spiritual cannibals' trough by making bacon samies out of susceptible trusting human beings.

So, hey, you can eat pig flesh and blood, if you really want to. [Ever seen that movie 'Babe?'] Like, the hippies used to say, 'You are what you eat!'

meself, I am definitely still happy to be a card-carrying vegetarian, too, after all these years. I can't even digest anything with eggs in it, at this point, anyway. Cheese is cholesterol and artery clotting, too.

Besides, I'm a GreenPeace and PETA cult supporter [people for the ethical treatment of animals] and tree-hugger, too [and one of the founders of Earth Day - way back in 1970]. Furthermore, I think irresponsible, cruel degenerate people who leave dogs chained up or penned up outside all day -- to howl in misery and disturb their more law-abiding neighbors -- ought to be chained up themselves and left outside in the cold or the rain for a few weeks, too. And zoos are the epitome of the cruel conceit of misguided homo sapiens - life imprisonment without parole for other species. rant...

so, I'll just stick to those delicious organic peas and lentils, etc., thank you! ahimsa.

speaking of food [for thought], without real musicians to create and record the music, there wouldn't be any 'house music' - it would be just a bunch of turntable jockeys making ugly scratching sounds on discs and sequencing samples of their own inflated brainfarts. loud places like discos hurt these old deafened and amplifier-damaged ears. plus, where I live all the dance clubs are reeking carcinogenic smokestacks playing insipid rap and hip-hop playground rhymes over obvious lame drum machine factory-patch grooves. Believe me, I've had my own share of youthful reckless abandon in life -- over the years, however, I've been consciously weeding my garden, not the reverse: not this, not that...

btw, one of the best satsangs I ever got was from Frank Zappa - who told me [back in 1974 when I was a miragey cult zealot], 'Gurus are for shit.' Ironically, I responded by telling him, 'F
---
you, Zappa.' Then, he responded by playing his new tune about rugus called 'Cosmic Debris.' In retrospect, kinda funny.

Another good satsang was the time I took my boy up to Malibu to see the Lard's just remodeled 28,000 sq. ft. 'dilapidated cottage.' My kid said, 'Dad, if miragey's supposedly so spiritual and stuff, then why does he have to live in a palace and be so rich, while the premies like you who support him - and other people around the world - are so poor? Why doesn't he share that wealth with others? Where did he get all that money, anyway? How did he get to be so rich?' Out of the mouths of babes...

Also, my kid's feedback [upon hearing m's dung beetle shatsang in Pasadena]: 'Well, that was kind of funny and all, but what the heck does his talk about elephant shit have to do with meditation or spirituality? And miragey sure rambles a lot when he talks. Can't he even stay on one subject? I mean, he's all over the place -- it's hard to follow, let alone make any intelligent sense of it. Can we go now, Dad, Pul-lease?!' haha

Lastly, hey, baconzen, if you don't like peace or lentils, then don't read my 'pious' posts, matey. I mean, you're free to sign your posts as 'dufus' or 'Sheila' or 'ladu' or 'BLT sammy' whatever, if you wanna, but I'll sign my posts however I want,too. Like, do something constructive for a change, or go on one of yer nitty booger-pickin' 'excursions, G-sus', somewhere else, instead of pickin' yer runny nose and wipin' it on other exes' posts. I mean, what do You Honestly contribute that's worthwhile for exiting premies or the exes here?! So, here's a tissue, kiddo -- Go look in da mirror, wipe that snot offa yer nose and clean yerself up, awweddy! And remember: 'Moses had a nose as big as most noses.' -- William Saroyan. hohoho

And, if you like gest-alt raves and nightclubs, then fer cryin out Lard, go ahead: 'dance to your own beat.' [- you-know-who]

hehehe

Merry Mithrasmas!

PEACE AND LENTILS,

da lil swami

P.S. When I was a lad, we used to go behind the barn and smoke hams.
[ file:///E:/Autres%20sites%20web/Forum%20Archive/Forum%205/www.lileks.com/institute/gallery/ads/prem.html ]
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 00:21:42 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: ham, do you understand English????
Message:

If you will check again, I wrote: 'Get plenty of exercise - that helps with any temporary depression. Walks, hikes, jogging, biking, aerobics, hatha yoga, stretching, weight training, DANCING, etc.'

Next time, please Read more carefully before sniping at anybody. Unfortunately, that phlegmie lobotomy is still impairing you... I do hope your next brain surgery is a bit more successful, dear. [btw, I like tongue-in-chick humour, too.]

ta-ta...

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Date: Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 16:53:28 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Shame we didn't all listen to Zappa
Message:

I remember reading a very similar quote early 70's from him, yeah well, naive hippies eh, and I was into his early stuff and completely missed his message.

The bacon sarnie comment was a joke, if a bit dry!

And c'mon, whats wrong with a bit of constructive criticism eh, I am not the only one here who finds this place a bit pious at the mo, and in need of a little punk, even if just occasionally, but maybe there's no place here for 'negativity' now.

As for your comment re premies or exes, maybe the number who have got off on my posts is less than you, but I still get good feedback, and know that a minority of leavers and exes find this place 'too polite', just doing my bit for the balance yeah.

As for your comments re house music, assume you're joking, ever heard of Picasso and collages, or Man Ray's(?) montages, just as valid methinks.
Although hip-hop is not completely my bag there's been some great music come out of that tradition, not least Public Enemy, Wu Tang Clan, Cypress Hill, Tribe Called Quest, Fugees. Then now like Destiny's Child, Kelis, and Missee Elliot and Timberland.
You must have heard her single last year, get yur freak on.

Oh well it's your loss.

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Date: Fri, Dec 28, 2001 at 22:10:50 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Shame we didn't all listen to Zappa
Message:

hey ham,

look, when an ex [or a sincere, wavering/exiting premie] has something serious to present here and has put in some thoughtful time + effort, let's just be careful not to cavalierly take a dump on or diss it [for jollies] -- each of us is different and unique, which I do respect - and something each of us should appreciate. But Anybody taking lil potshots, or tweaking my nose, or appending vulgarities to a serious purposeful post is gonna git it right back karmically in da face, as a lesson, if necessary. If you will notice, I don't Initiate spats with other exes. (btw, I stopped being a doormat for flamers when I left the cult.) [I really didn't enjoy rubbing someone else's face in his own caca recently, either, though it was well-deserved under the circumstances.] 'constructive' is the modus operandi I personally am striving for here. [not nit-picking semantics or dissing exes' personal choices] sheesh, the idea is Not to drive all these people away. I consciously post here for a definite purpose, as do many other exes - not to simply waste precious time that could be better spent [or money earned and projects completed].

Yeah, I am undeniably and unabashedly 'pious', too -- I have a deep reverence for the universal life energy which creates, operates, destroys universes and sustains all life and existence, eternally. that's part of My schtick -- My life choice, My freedom, My right, My experiences. I don't need to defend that choice. But if someone thinks otherwise, then that stupid or ignorant person is violating My personal space and may be meted the reward of a swami hickory stick.

ok then,
r.e. Zappa. As I got older, I still liked his Grand Wazoo and Hot Rats and other instrumental stuff, etc., but his perennial adolescent caca humour also got old after awhile, too.

incidentally, besides publishing and teaching college, I have been a professional musician and composer for almost 35 years, incl stints with some of the most wonderful musicians in the world. So, I clearly have developed my own strong preferences in music. While I respect others' rights to their musical tastes, I am not interested at all in industrial, thrash, punk, rap, etc. or discussing such noise seriously. I don't like that loud abrasive music; it physically hurts my ears very badly, is unhealthy to my nervous system, and frankly MTV amateurs wanking on guitars and primping pop ego-posers just make me ROFL [or wanna hurl].

+ I am an old swami, not some kid who grew up on disco, Britney Spears or Black Flag or the Backstreet Goys [i.e. goyim]. I like Bach, Hariprashad Chaurasia, Vaughn-Williams, Dvorak, Debussy, Miles, Monk, Trane, Keith Jarrett, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Nat Cole, Weather Report, Shakti, Segovia, Pepe Romero, Sunny Ade, Marley, and so forth -- all legit and original musicians and composers, not techno wannabes or copycats with samplers, drum machines, and worldly delusions of grandeur [sic miragey or rapster Snoopy Doggy Doo]. I don't turn the car radio tuner to that KRAP radio station, either. When I cruise on the motorways, I like jazz, and in heavy traffic soothing chamber music or ragas.

Dancing? Ever tangoed to Astor Piazzolla? Check out that movie 'Scent of a Woman.' Now, that's what I call dancing! See, I don't dance without a real good partner. There aren't many who can dance well or gracefully with a partner anymore. It's mostly self-absorbed gyrating nowadays, pelvic thrusting, and drug or alcohol-induced. I see lust in that, and/or people trying to lose themselves in the multimedia effect [or a dose of dangerous ecstasy]. where is the romance, the grace, the beauty in that? I don't see it.

Rave? hey, My Generation Invented the musical use of that word. Ever hear of that album: Rave Up with the Yardbirds? My own bands used to jam for hours on end -- improvising electronic trances at smokey clubs back in the 60s for the freaks. We had real analog synths, too, in the early 70s, not pre-programmed sampled keyboards. We had to create our own sounds from the wave shapes, contours, envelope filters, etc. from scratch. hey, I btdt. These synths today are great, however, when played by real musicians - who don't play with only 1-2 fingers [like marji, for instance]. If a person can't make an acoustic piano sing, then a synth is just a gimmick to cover up musical deficiencies and illiteracy.

so, like Clint Eastwood, I don't have time for punk[s]. fugees? haha hey, Tuli Kupferberg and the real Fugs used to be one of our opening acts in New York, along with the primping New York Dolls, Ramones, etc. I couldn't stand that garbage back then - except as an amusement, and there's nothing musically redeeming in it for me now.

so, You Really want to talk opinionated about music with me? First, jump these 2 lil hurdles: 1) you must play an instrument at least as well as Mose Allison [whom I gigged with] or Jimi Hendrix [or sing better than Diana Krall or Clapton], and 2) be knowledgeable about classical, jazz, blues, rock, reggae, Hindustani, gamelan, Latin, avant garde, Arabic, all the modes, harmonies, extended/altered chords, composition and arranging, and music historiography. Otherwise, I'm frankly not interested in your musical opinions. sorry.

Pablo Picasso? hey, I've got books with all his sketches, paintings, etc. You wanna talk cubism and perspective, or his Blue period, or his influences and contemporaries? btw, you should check out the museum of modern art in Paris. Magnifique!

now, those are just my opinions, after all. I won't thrust them on you. Please, by all means, enjoy whatever music or art you like. but don't presume to rain on my hit parade or impose your personal tastes on me. I am not looking to be converted to someone else's trip ever again, cult or otherwise. I do my own thing -- captain of my own lil ship [not captain rawart, anymore]. I got an inner pilot, too [but that's strictly between the pilot and me].

gotta go now,

P + L,

PS at the time [back in '74], Zappa's remark was pretty confronting. He looked kinda surprised when I yelled back at him. btw, Prostate cancer research needs a Lot more funding. A major killer of men [much more common than breast cancer among women, but exceedingly less publicized]. [Zappa died of prostate cancer at about age 52.]

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Date: Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 01:11:54 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Shame we didn't all listen to Zappa
Message:

look, when an ex [or a sincere, wavering/exiting premie] has something serious to present here and has put in some thoughtful time + effort, let's just be careful not to cavalierly take a dump on or diss it [for jollies] -- each of us is different and unique, which I do respect - and something each of us should appreciate.

Sorry such, but that's out of order, 99% of the time I curb my tongue, even I'm not stupid enough not to acknowledge the 'premie' sensitivity here, whether recent or long term ex.

But Anybody taking lil potshots, or tweaking my nose, or appending vulgarities to a serious purposeful post is gonna git it right back karmically in da face, as a lesson, if necessary. If you will notice, I don't Initiate spats with other exes. (btw, I stopped being a doormat for flamers when I left the cult.) [I really didn't enjoy rubbing someone else's face in his own caca recently, either, though it was well-deserved under the circumstances.] 'constructive' is the modus operandi I personally am striving for here. [not nit-picking semantics or dissing exes' personal choices] sheesh, the idea is Not to drive all these people away. I consciously post here for a definite purpose, as do many other exes - not to simply waste precious time that could be better spent [or money earned and projects completed].

What makes you think it's any different for anyone else? Jesus such, that's such an arrogant statement. But the use of the word 'vulgarities' sums it up, and was exactly my point about being pious.

Yeah, I am undeniably and unabashedly 'pious', too -- I have a deep reverence for the universal life energy which creates, operates, destroys universes and sustains all life and existence, eternally. that's part of My schtick -- My life choice, My freedom, My right, My experiences. I don't need to defend that choice. But if someone thinks otherwise, then that stupid or ignorant person is violating My personal space and may be meted the reward of a swami hickory stick.

In a public forum, statements like your previous paragraph I find offensive, but I defend your right to make them, it seems it doesn't wash the other way though

incidentally, besides publishing and teaching college, I have been a professional musician and composer for almost 35 years, incl stints with some of the most wonderful musicians in the world. So, I clearly have developed my own strong preferences in music. While I respect others' rights to their musical tastes, I am not interested at all in industrial, thrash, punk, rap, etc. or discussing such noise seriously. I don't like that loud abrasive music; it physically hurts my ears very badly, is unhealthy to my nervous system, and frankly MTV amateurs wanking on guitars and primping pop ego-posers just make me ROFL [or wanna hurl].

+ I am an old swami, not some kid who grew up on disco, Britney Spears or Black Flag or the Backstreet Goys [i.e. goyim]. I like Bach, Hariprashad Chaurasia, Vaughn-Williams, Dvorak, Debussy, Miles, Monk, Trane, Keith Jarrett, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Nat Cole, Weather Report, Shakti, Segovia, Pepe Romero, Sunny Ade, Marley, and so forth -- all legit and original musicians and composers, not techno wannabes or copycats with samplers, drum machines, and worldly delusions of grandeur [sic miragey or rapster Snoopy Doggy Doo]. I don't turn the car radio tuner to that KRAP radio station, either. When I cruise on the motorways, I like jazz, and in heavy traffic soothing chamber music or ragas.

The previous two paragraphs I find unbelievable, I've heard some awful jazz and classical music, in my time too. Every genre of music has good producers of it and bad, I've been to & heard Keith Jarrett get so far up his own arse it was embarrassing, much as I loved his early seventies stuff with Charlie Motian etc, and some of his 'standards'.

Dancing? Ever tangoed to Astor Piazzolla? Check out that movie 'Scent of a Woman.' Now, that's what I call dancing! See, I don't dance without a real good partner. There aren't many who can dance well or gracefully with a partner anymore. It's mostly self-absorbed gyrating nowadays, pelvic thrusting, and drug or alcohol-induced. I see lust in that, and/or people trying to lose themselves in the multimedia effect [or a dose of dangerous ecstasy]. where is the romance, the grace, the beauty in that? I don't see it.

Well you have obviously COMPLETELY missed the deep side of modern dancing, and the joys of music produced to enhance your chemikal experiences and alter your neurone patterns, and as for lust, good job there was some, or you wouldn't be here for one, by the way the point of multi-media is not to lose yourself at all, completely the reverse, but then your prejudices display why you would have misunderstood this

Rave? hey, My Generation Invented the musical use of that word. Ever hear of that album: Rave Up with the Yardbirds? My own bands used to jam for hours on end -- improvising electronic trances at smokey clubs back in the 60s for the freaks. We had real analog synths, too, in the early 70s, not pre-programmed sampled keyboards. We had to create our own sounds from the wave shapes, contours, envelope filters, etc. from scratch. hey, I btdt. These synths today are great, however, when played by real musicians - who don't play with only 1-2 fingers [like marji, for instance]. If a person can't make an acoustic piano sing, then a synth is just a gimmick to cover up musical deficiencies and illiteracy.

For your info, the good beatz stuff involves extensive and major tweaking of sounds, in fact in a lot of drum & bass, and hip-hop for instance it's the basis of it, see Timberland, RZA, Photek, Goldie, the list is endless, and it's a very 'difficult' skill, as I know onlyy too well, it's also no coincidence that 'e' culture has seen through thast whole guru trip, even though they have got perilously close to 'spirituality' at times, and at the hippy end of it embrace it.

so, You Really want to talk opinionated about music with me? First, jump these 2 lil hurdles: 1) you must play an instrument at least as well as Mose Allison [whom I gigged with] or Jimi Hendrix [or sing better than Diana Krall or Clapton], and 2) be knowledgeable about classical, jazz, blues, rock, reggae, Hindustani, gamelan, Latin, avant garde, Arabic, all the modes, harmonies, extended/altered chords, composition and arranging, and music historiography. Otherwise, I'm frankly not interested in your musical opinions. sorry.

Know how to dj? FX sounds? Layer drum & bass, god now you're sounding like a smug old fart, I thought music was about feeling before anything, if it feels good it is good. Obviously those ill-educated blues and folk musicians, and early jazz men playing intuitively with their ears must have been poor musicians according to your definition. My god I understand why punk came along, with all those second rate jazz rock twiddlers, who knew all their modes etc but were boring as shit, and completely alienated from their bodies

Pablo Picasso? hey, I've got books with all his sketches, paintings, etc. You wanna talk cubism and perspective, or his Blue period, or his influences and contemporaries? btw, you should check out the museum of modern art in Paris. Magnifique!

So what about his collages then? Or Braque's? and the whole montage concept since that was where we started on that one

now, those are just my opinions, after all. I won't thrust them on you. Please, by all means, enjoy whatever music or art you like. but don't presume to rain on my hit parade or impose your personal tastes on me. I am not looking to be converted to someone else's trip ever again, cult or otherwise. I do my own thing -- captain of my own lil ship [not captain rawart, anymore]. I got an inner pilot, too [but that's strictly between the pilot and me].

Convert you, jesus I'm under no illusions there, just trying to puncture some smugness is all

fuck you said with a smile,
my version of peace & lentils

Now the admin will probably say this should be locked or deleted, when I thought we were just having a lively discussion, and filling in some background of the people here a bit more, AND showing there is a life of passion after gm, for both of us.

What do I know

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Date: Sat, Dec 29, 2001 at 18:55:21 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: ok then, Piss off, PUNK TROLL!
Message:

first at FV, then over at LG, then over here - I've watched your stupid lil game, ham:

you come on like a predatory pervert with me, time and again -- a parasitic flea looking for a host to bite and suck blood from.

I start a harmless honest careful post [not directed at you at all], then your conceit vulgarly trashes it or otherwise defiles it, your screwy compensating insecure ego hoping to get a rise out of the person, then you feign innocence and disingenuous good intentions of just having a 'lively conversation' that began with your own defecations, then you pick apart the other person for simply indicating they do NOT really want to converse with you (and especiall on OT [off-topic] subjects), because your dark sick punk troll ego is merely looking to suck someone else's light, while defiling the bearer, whom you have insulted from day 1.

what's next, you pedophilic troll? a game of who gets in the last word?

you wrote: 'just trying to puncture some smugness is all'

and: 'fuck you said with a smile,
my version of peace & lentils'

yeah, I got your underlying screwball troll message alright, a long time ago - which is: 'fuck you, said with a smile.'

'just trying to puncture some smugness?' read the first post you directed to me in this thread again -- you flaming asshole -- and then look in the freaking mirror - and then pretend you aren't being hypocritical and lying about your own blind smugness and pathological obsession of wanting to puncture others, bleed their light, suck them with your punk darkness, and cast your schizoid addict negativity on some of the exes here, out of your own pathetic deluded inadequacies and emotional insecurity and immaturity.

btw, Duh! I mix, too, in my recording studio. but, as you said, what do you know? Nothing about me, ham. ...and I'm definitely Not interested in a relationship.

r.e. 'enhance your chemikal experiences and alter your neurone patterns'. For your own sake, please check into a 12-Step program, ham. now take yer stinkin idiot head out of yer arse, and shove yer posts up there -- where they belong. end of conversation.

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