Disculta -:- Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:08:29 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Thanks Disculta, saved it! [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:37:57 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- sleeping with one's ex -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:58:58 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :) -:- Hello to you Gregg! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:29:11 (EDT)

__ Francesca :) -:- Yes, PatC,** BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:03:32 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:51:08 (EDT)

__ karen -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:48:42 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Welcome, karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:05:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Yes, welcome Karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Yes, welcome Karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:34 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** in ages -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:27:36 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- Re: ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)

Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:08:29 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:

It occurred to me that with the recent current events, and MJ's patently pathetic response to them, there might be more fence-sitters lurking around here than usual, and not much in the way of ex-sang for them to dig their teeth into.

I was a premie for a long time, a long time ago. I know that when I was a premie, I did my best to avoid awareness of any other remotely inspiring teachers or teachings who were out there because it went against the 'one perfect master' theory. But things are very different now. There is so much more information and there is the internet. And if you are a current or wavering premie, you probably have heard lots and lots of quite inspiring stuff spoken by all kinds of different people since the 911 disaster. I know if I were a premie now, I would have a hard time finding any relevance to my master at this time, with his generic prayer and no really helpful offering at a time when someone with a teacher might want to turn to their teacher for help.

I realize, from the few premies I still know, that for most people, MJ occupies more of a sentimental place than a really awe-inspired place in your hearts these days. It's hard to completely let go and move on, so it's easier to relegate him to a fairly insignificant place in your life - a bit like church on Sunday, something we used to laugh at in the passionate, early days of his arrival in the west.

If you have relegated him to a symbolic, distant father-figure place in your life, you may not see much reason to go all the way and remove him completely. Many of you have added other more up-to-date influences to your repertoire (viz. David Andersen's amazing use of Byron Katie's teachings to lecture exes below) but you still want to keep MJ there. Why? Is it because it is one place in your lives where you have memories of feeling special, or where you hold out the hope of being unconditionally loved, of going all the way. Is it the place that reassures you that you are on some kind of a 'path,' so that you feel that the 'growth' part of your life is handled? Are you afraid of facing some kind of breakdown or emptiness if you really turn around and surgically extract the huge web of beliefs and - let's face it - subtle fears, that MJ has woven in your being?

Yes, I know, I know, you are having 'that experience' that we can't understand, or have forgotten. Well, I still mediate, in a different way, on the flow of my breath, and I can only say that my experience has become much more pleasurable and my feeling of connection to a kind of universal energy has increased since I decided to become an ex-premie, rather than an occasional or lingering premie. It's a bit like that friend of yours who is in a relationship that really needs to end, but he keeps sleeping with the ex-wife because he doesn't want to face up to his loneliness. The thing is, he isn't attracting any new relationships, either. In terms of the experience of leaving a 'master' or whatever he calls himself these days ('you can't come home without the master!' he said that!) I have found that it is better to make a clean break. Then you can really start a new relationship. With your self. With your direct connection to your source through YOUR breath, if that's your choice (remember, despite the absurd rhetoric, it's YOUR breath, and he didn't show it to you, and millions of people worldwide meditate on their breath). And if meditating on your breath isn't your thing, fine. You maybe just enjoy the feeling of 'love' you get at programs. Now this is really like sleeping with an inappropriate ex, because along with that 'feeling' you are being subtly and not-so-subtly programmed by pretty much every word he says. 'You can't come home without the master' indeed! Do you realize what spiritual fascism this is? What blinders MJ is wearing to the vast number of people who are doing fantastically well - better than most premies probably - without 'the master?' And there are dozens of other masters saying the same thing, with very similar followers buying the same line. Do you really think that MJ is the only, or even the most exalted one? Because if he isn't the only one, he is a fake, because in all his words for 20-some years he has implied that he is the only living master right now. If all the others are complete fakes, this is fine. But if they aren't, he would be working WITH them, because they would be meeting at their exalted level and would know each other, wouldn't they?

It feels so great to be free of the whole thing. Yes, I know you are deeply trained and programmed by the recent spin-doctoring to believe that we are all just stuck in the past with our objections to MJ, and that things have changed. Have they gotten better? Is there more joy than ever at those meetings you go to? Or is it going downhill?

There are so, so many exes who don't post here because MJ doesn't have any relevance at all in their lives. I have to say that this goes for me too, but I enjoy some of this ex-premie internet activity because I have directly seen it helping many, many premies who are trying to leave, especially in the past year. On this forum and another one called Recent Exes (which is password-protected, we have seen a great exodus of people leaving after up ro 30 years in recent months. People who were just keeping MJ on the shelf as their cute little guru rather than face leaving have been brought to the point of seeing the point of actively leaving. I and others have had a lot of correspondence with them, and have watched them becoming freer and freer and happier and happier as they cast off the incredible burden of cult programming which, only months earlier, they swore they didn't have. They are so grateful for life now. They feel as though they have retrieved a part of themselves.

If you are a premie, and think it would be safer to just keep MJ going in the background rather than confront your own belief system and perhaps leave, I just want to say that you have no idea how much of your energy is really caught up in that little part that has frozen and refuses to feel your gut doubts. When you go through the process of thinking about leaving, and get into a good dialogue with some people that have left (and you can do this in many ways, not just on this forum, which can be a bit intense at times) you will recover so much energy and free attention that many other things in your life will start working better.

Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:37:57 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks Disculta, saved it! [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:58:58 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: sleeping with one's ex
Message:

That was a great analogy. Although many of us have never slept with an ex-spouse, most of us have had relationships we knew were not good for us, relationships we knew were bound for the rocks, yet we kept the thing together because it was easier than confronting the truth about ourselves and our realationships.

It must be hard indeed to leave after thirty years! I was only in for a few years. The sense of relief and freedom was definitely strong, though. (I smoked cigarettes for a year or two; it wasn't too hard to quit. My wife has smoked for decades; quitting is almost impossible for her.)

Anyway, nice post, Disculta. The spiritual potential that opens up after liberation from the cult is boundless; thanks for reminding premies and exes of the post-M possibilities.

Love,
Gregg

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:29:11 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Hello to you Gregg!
Message:

Dear Gregg,

Haven't seen you post much lately. Glad you're still around -- like to hear your voice!

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:03:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Yes, PatC,** BEST OF FORUM*****
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:51:08 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:

You are absolutely right, Disculta. I have had premies tell me, though, 'I could not survive without Maharaji.' The tragedy is that they believe this. And this is my major problem with rawat. These people were not born thinking they had to have maharaji to exist. He made them beieve that, because of his own greed and need for power and control. And it for those reasons that I would charge Prem Pal Rawat with the murder of thousands of souls and free spirits. He continues to keep these spirits prisoner for his own selfish needs, while attempting to destroy yet more innocent people willing to listen just a bit too long to a deranged being. He is a disgrace to all true teachers.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:48:42 (EDT)
From: karen
Email: curteij@southcom.com.au
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around?
Message:

So well put. After 25+ years as a premie, a lot of the time a fringe dweller, but still with the sentimental attachment you speak of, I have been reading these posts and have quietly shed the shock and the embarrassment of realizing it was a cult all along! It is so like, as you say, staying in an inappropriate relationship for all the wrong reasons. It is a strange process but familiar! And I know that the empowerment that comes from refusing to be deluded anymore will be worth way more to my life than hanging on to something that is so obviously whacky.
Such insightful, inspiring good posts here. I wonder how many like me read and benefit without contibuting...

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:05:47 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: karen
Subject: Welcome, karen
Message:

Dear Karen,

Disculta's post is the kind that has been missing here lately. So glad to see we're back on track, and welcome!

Best wishes,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Yes, welcome Karen
Message:

We're glad you're here. There are a lot of us here, more than those posting. The 9/11 disaster has needed a lot of attention, but there are many of us exes floating around who have a wealth of experience to share about the strange trip we were in, and the strange process of extracting oneself from it.

Pull up a chair and have a cup of tea.

love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Yes, welcome Karen
Message:

I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, Karen.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:27:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** in ages
Message:

Absolutely on the nose, Disculta!

I was just thinking of how many thousands of fringe premies, occassional premies and former premies there are in SF and Marin. SF once had the largest proportion of any city in the west. Many still have a pic of M when he was a bouncing chubby teenager with a mala and tilak on their altars next to Buddha or Yoganand or Ramana Maharshi or even Ganesha.

If they're happy - fine. I'm here if they have lingering oppression in their lives because of any superstitions attached to M and K. I know I sure had a few to get over. It's not easy to be a former apostle of the former living messiah.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: ***BEST OF FORUM***
Message:

very timely. good for guru picture cobweb busting.
congrats

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