GR -:- Did M stress me out...? -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:10:05 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Before you go I have a question -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:42:54 (GMT)

__ __ la-ex -:- tonette-some businesses... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:18:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ A.P. -:- NOT -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:57:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- NOT...not sure about what you say... -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:14:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill burke -:- Lots of overlooked details in that list la-ex, -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:32:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Bill, your essay on DECA -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:47:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- up to you, didnt rededitor change it?,,,nt -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 13:47:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- I knew one of those guys before he got rich -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:14:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- The DC guy, right?..He's mega, mega rich , but... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:55:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- I think we talked about this before -:- Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:31:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- I'm glad to see someone .. -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:00:57 (GMT)

__ __ Guy -:- Before you go I have a question -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:02:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- AMP now = B.E. Aerospace -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Guy -:- Before you go I have a question -- further -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:11:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thank you and..... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:47 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Great narrative Guy -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:30:18 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Many Thanks, Guy... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Scott Cronin -:- Many Thanks, Guy... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I think we know eachother, Scott... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:20:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ scott -:- I think we know eachother, Scott... -:- Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:43:09 (GMT)

Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:10:05 (GMT)
From: GR
Email: guy@architx.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Did M stress me out...?
Message:

I'd like to respond to a question from Cynthia. Her question has disappeared from the active archives, but I believe she asked me if meeting with M stressed me out -- cause she saw that in my face at DECA.

This is quite long, but please read to the end. Here's a story:

When M first moved to Miami he lived in rented digs. Soon a house was purchased which, naturally, required pretty extensive renovations to be 'the residence.' I was not involved in the renovations: Another architect from our design/engineering staff at DECA was asked to do this.

One night I got a call around midnight from this guy asking me to come by the house and help him with a problem. I got there about 1:00. Lots of work was going on -- around the clock, great urgency, etc. The work was being done by premies who worked for an 'outside' company, composed primarily of premies, who had the dual responsibility of doing their money-making work and freebies (service) for M's personal projects.

Some interior plumbing was being moved in a second floor bathroom. The plumber had cut joists in order to relocate plumbing fixtures. The other architect had seen these cut joists and was concerned that the structure was damaged. He wanted to consult. Together with the main carpenter, we worked out a way to strengthen the floor and install the piping. It required that some things that had been done be redone, plus some additional work that would take a few extra hours.

I went to bed thinking 'job well done.'

I woke up and headed to the complex (DECA facility) early. M came shortly thereafter, earlier than usual. First thing he asked was: 'Did you go to the residence last night?' I explained the situation, what was done and he listened. When I was finished he said: 'That beam was not going to break.' [note: this is pretty close to literal -- it's been over 20 years...]

He was mad and told me never to do that kind of thing again -- don't get in his way, don't delay his projects. I was crushed. Based on my experience -- what I knew about structure -- we had done the right thing. Was there another set of physics for perfect masters? I wondered about this, but mainly I was crushed for being disciplined harshly and publicly.

Of course, one reaction was envy from some that I was in HIS spotlight -- no matter how unpleasant.

Here's another recollection: One night we were in the 707 on the runway at the Miami airport. I'm not sure the circumstances. I don't remember what I had done or not done, but M was yelling at me. He was very angry. I just stood there and soaked it in -- not much I could say. Afterwards, I was pretty numb -- felt like crying. Someone said that if M had done that to them they would have been dead -- kind of like: How were you able to handle that knife in the heart?

Not all encounters with M were stressful. I'm relating these to say to Cynthia that, yes it wasn't always easy. However, at the time, I was doing what I wanted to be doing. I was challenged in all aspects of my life and I thought I had the best job in the world.

However, to put it in some perspective: I've had other clients that found reasons to be dissatisfied with my work. I've had clients that didn't pay me, tried to cheat me. Of course, none of them were perfect masters, so they were entitled (grin).

Here's another story: The first big project, outside of stages, that I did for M was to renovate portions of the Malibu residence (maybe around '76). This project I approached as I had been trained: I treated M like a client, got info about what he desired, produced ideas, reviewed them with him and staff, and then supervised the construction during a period when he was on tour.

When he got back we were all exhausted, but happy. We had completed a major project in record time. The family and staff toured the house and approved of the changes.

In the bedroom there was a stereo system that controlled speakers in other parts of the house. This had been installed and integrated into the existing system by one of the premies who was good at that sort of thing. I guess he had a different idea of how these things were to be set up than M because when M tried to do some things with it, he couldn't get it to work after he had changed some settings. It wasn't the way he was used to seeing it.

The tour and the day turned into a disappointment because the stereo wasn't working. It had worked perfectly during testing, but after changing some switches, M couldn't make it work.

This and some other minor grievances led M to change the way that we worked in the future. He determined that he would be the designer and I would be his project manager: combination draftsman, researcher, go-for and construction supervisor.

I have to admit: He was creative. He had plenty of ideas. That's one reason the budgets kept getting blown-out (as Dettmers related). He would come up with ideas that didn't respect the laws of man or nature. He didn't have the idea that something was impossible to do. Based on what I know about intention, he made a lot of things happen because he believed, and made others believe that they would happen. It's either genius or idiocy, maybe both.

There were a lot of businesses created out of the company that was DECA. There are aviation businesses, cabinet shops, contractors, boat builders, interior designers, graphic designers, etc. who all got their start there. There's a few premies now who are millionaires because of their start at DECA. Looking at it that way, it was a great (business) opportunity.

I learned a lot about how to treat/work with clients from my time with M. Larry Bernstein, designer of the Millenium stage, said that he had trained at the feet of Frank Lloyd Wright (the apprentices sat on the floor, Wright and his wife in the chair -- kind of similar to M, look at pictures of FLW at Taliesen). Part of my apprenticeship was at the feet of GMJ [although I don't think FLW would have said the beam wouldn't break (g)].

I know there have been horror stories told by people on this forum about their time at DECA. I can confirm most of the circumstances. However, I'm like Erika, in one of her posts about COLL, who remembered the special moments. My memories of DECA are filled with positives, also, about the work, the learning, the special friendships and times with M. As Donner keeps saying: Something in me needed something from him at that time in my life. There are no mistakes.

I'm not making apologies or defending M to you. I'm just choosing not to blame him for how my life turned out.
*****
I think during the extensive posts from Erika I got a good education about the Forum. I've certainly changed my initial negative opinion from reading and posting. I appreciate those of you who have come forward to say hello or to ask me my opinion on something that happened, or to remind me of things that I had forgotten -- like salty D says -- senior moments.

However, I do not plan to be a regular, just because this activity takes too much time. Whoever said that computers save time missed the boat. I've never posted to a chat room before and can see why it's addictive: What will Dettmers reveal next? Stay tuned for the next episode, etc.

Also, I respect the real work that is going on in your lives. The processing, the understanding, the accepting and forward movement. The idealism (and naivete) that brought us together originally is still alive in the Forum. Good work, guys.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:42:54 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: GR
Subject: Before you go I have a question
Message:

Do you recall who became millionaires and do their businesses exist today?

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:18:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: tonette-some businesses...
Message:

A number of guys went on to make milions from their contacts with the people they worked with at DECA..

Jim Colie-construction, boat remodeling

Rich Groden-commercial renovation

Dwight Sellers-construction

[Webmaster's note - 31/5/04. One name has been removed from this list as after discussion with the named person I am satisfied he did not gain significant business advantage from his time working at DECA. If any of the other people named in this post feel the comments above, or in the subsequent replies, are unfair, please write to me at epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk.]

Plus, lots of others, and a number of people who moved to other areas...

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 12:57:30 (GMT)
From: A.P.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: NOT
Message:

First of all, I know some of the people you have listed as millionaires, and I have to disagree.

Jim Colie does remodel ships, and just may have money, but he is not a millionaire, I have been to his house it is beautiful and cost him 850K. The house sits on it's own block and has beautiful gardens. He bought the house with the money he made on 1 boat renovation. I would not say his business is always doing well. He has just laid off several high dollar employees and owes some of them a lot of money? If he is a millionaire, why hasnt he paid his employees? I would say at this time, he is going through a rough time.

Rich Groden--Definately not a millionaire!!! He is just a small business owner. I have seen his house and his offices. He makes a living thats all. He has a hard time paying his bills. He does a lot remodels. Believe me, he's not even close to being a millionaire.

[Comment removed by webmaster - 31/5/04]

I'm not sure what Dwight Sellers is up to, but I will try to find out and report back here.

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 17:14:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: A.P.
Subject: NOT...not sure about what you say...
Message:

AP- I know, or have best friends who know,Jim, Richie and [Name removed by webmaster - 31/5/04], who would disagree totally with you...
As for Dwight, I heard he did well, then hit rock bottom and was actually quite poor now...

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:32:38 (GMT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Lots of overlooked details in that list la-ex,
Message:

I probably should not post this now as I have time constraints,
but the list is long of those that were trampled in this
pusuit of careers.
This first that comes to mind is Dwight Sellars, who conspired with the rest of CRA top dogs to skim off the profits of
the CRA construction efforts while using the same slave labor
system that spawned it in the first place.
We did the work of renovating that Soulth beach movie theater turned Disco hot spot. I went all the way up CRA command chain
complaining of them having the young guys SHOVELING a huge pile of dust asbestoes that came from an industrial oven on that same site. They were then given DUSTMASKS, I immediatly went to the REZ and hand delivered a message of what CRA was doing and how it had to stop and could be a real major issue and that I would
not stay silent. They got airfed's in there, but only for the 2 guy shoveling, all the dust blowing around was just donated to the neighborhood and coworkers.
My head is spinning from too many stories I know.
I will just have to post some more on this.

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:47:11 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: Bill, your essay on DECA
Message:

from the Red Nighty - want to re-print it? (I'll leave out the ex-rated parts :)!)

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 13:47:48 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: up to you, didnt rededitor change it?,,,nt
Message:

xcvn

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 22:14:06 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I knew one of those guys before he got rich
Message:

Won't say who, but I was very good friends with his ex-wife before, during, and after our involvement with Maharaji. (We're still good friends). When I knew them they were always broke - and often in debt. They moved to DECA because of their guilt about being householders and the opportunity of getting paid to do service. I think their highest financial aspiration at the time was just to have enough money to support their family with! They were about the most 'rank-and-file' premies you can imagine - and this person is the LAST person I would have ever imagined becoming a millionaire. (Still can't believe it, really!)

Based on what I know about subsequent happenings, which is not all that much, this guy did not make money on the 'backs of premies' at all. He learned a skill and just happened to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time to parlay it into a lucrative business. (Digressing, I think this is what happens to many 'millionaires' that own their own businesses - combination of luck and hard work.)

I am not even sure that this guy is still a premie - I think not, although he may be marginally involved and go to programs every few years.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 23:55:35 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: The DC guy, right?..He's mega, mega rich , but...
Message:

unfortunately suffered a heart attck a few years ago..
He supposedly does an unbelievable amount of business renovating ships in S. Fla., and was always very stressed, thereby leading to his heart attack...I think he recovered, but has to take it slow for obvious reasons...

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Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2001 at 00:31:44 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I think we talked about this before
Message:

I think his ex told me about the heart attack too - have to say that I'm not surprised. If you remember her, she is doing very well. I see her every few years, and she's graduating from law school this spring, and I plan to be there if I can - she's an inspiration to all of us late-bloomers, not to mention extremely bright, socially conscious, and capable, and someone who will be a GREAT public sector lawyer. BTW, she supports this site wholeheartedly - just doesn't have time to post on the forum because of working full-time combined with going to law school, as I'm sure you can imagine. And she loved the LOTU video, which I sent to her as a present - she was one of the people who slept in the Coca-Cola factory.

Thanks, la-ex :)
Katie

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 05:00:57 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I'm glad to see someone ..
Message:

I'm glad to see some people got something for their effort.

By chance did you leave Michael Dettmers name off the list?

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:02:03 (GMT)
From: Guy
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Before you go I have a question
Message:

The aircraft chair business became a premie owned company called Aircraft Modular Products (short version of story) -- located in the complex.

When AMP was purchased by a large corporation several years ago, the stockholders made big bucks, some millions.

I'm not sure the new name, or if it's the same name.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:37 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: AMP now = B.E. Aerospace
Message:

AMP was sold to B.E. Aerospace for something like $165 million. Someone in Miami said that each of the key employees and investors, including M, received several $million each for their shares. The CEO ended up with around $65 million. Naturally there were some hard feelings among non-shareholders and guilt among the new millionaires

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:11:28 (GMT)
From: Guy
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: Before you go I have a question -- further
Message:

Thinking about this some more, I realize that several other ex-DECA employees, who started their own businesses (out of DECA) are quite well to do, if not already millionaires. In the interest of their privacy, I won't mention any names.

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:16:47 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Guy
Subject: Thank you and.....
Message:

I'm so glad to see you are totally embittered by your time in the cult.

My best to you
Tonette

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 02:30:18 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: GR
Subject: Great narrative Guy
Message:

Thanks for walking us through those experiences. Stay away if you must but you're most welcome to return. Your contributions are appreciated by us and the many others who visit here.

Richard - I think I hear the sound of a beam splitting

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:18:38 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Many Thanks, Guy...
Message:

Guy,

I can just see that grin of yours...:))

I know he was very rough on you. I remember it so well. I have to say you guys were very good at keeping your emotions at bay. I know he said awful things to you, I'm honored that you have answered my questions, Guy. I don't ever remember you or Hession talking about your meetings. Sadly ironic that he didn't know that he doesn't know EVERYTHING!!!

Yet, I agree, being in that room with him, at that time, adoring him then and feeling as if I were the luckiest premie in the world, for whatever reason I came to believe that about him, there were some fantastic experiences.

We laughed a lot, too. In the design room we laughed constantly, and when we were tired we'd laugh and cry. We didn't know any better then. It was a wacko bunch and I loved them all. I was their bossy mother and they joked about it. And I loved to complain, too. All this before real computers, can you imagine? All hand drawings! Amazing work was done there. And my cohort, you know who I mean, would make authentic chai at 4:00 am or some ridicultus hour and all the guys in the shop would line up with their cups and by the time they got they're cupful, my cohort would look in the bottom of the 2 gallon pan and shrug and say ''back to work, whatever.'' Such talent and people abused by m.

Thank you for expressing in eloquent words answers to questions I've had for years and years about you. I was pushy with you, but if you remember, being pushy got our job done, many times. I've been called bossy since I was a child, and I still am.

I hope your life makes you happy. I sounds as if you are busy with work. Best wishes,

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 03:52:43 (GMT)
From: Scott Cronin
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Many Thanks, Guy...
Message:

Guy: thankyou for your lucid recollections. i appreciate the memories that present the facts w/o the addition of implication or inflated assumptions. My recollections of my time at DECA, though consumed by the day to day details of purchasing and q.c. were filled w/ unique and inspiring events. I know for some it was wierd and oppressive in retrospect. i guess I'm in denial.Scott

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:20:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott Cronin
Subject: I think we know eachother, Scott...
Message:

I was Cindy in the Design dept.

Anyway, you're not in denial about the feelings of oppression. There was constant pressure. Recycling it is painful. I have to say, that it was the premies, not M, who made the experience worthwhile.

It's unfortunate that we were always separated so abruptly, especially at DECA. I burnt out and I was of no more use. Yet, when I remember how I felt back then, the constant joking around, the anticipation of seeing who I believed was someone very special, someone who I intensely believed was my Lord, capital L, then I can salvage some small morsel of a good memory, with my ''sisters and brothers and friends'' (Not HIM)!

I remember your name and face back then. Purchasing Dept.?

Best,
Cynthia (Cindy)

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Date: Tues, Mar 20, 2001 at 04:43:09 (GMT)
From: scott
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think we know eachother, Scott...
Message:

Cindy: I'm not good w/ faces to names, but i'm sure we had interfaces that i would remember fondly.... I had a great time at IMMCO/DECA. I regret not being more aware of the good,talented folks that contributed their sweat and tears(i didn't see much blood.) the unique environment didn't support the strengthening of friendships. it's been 20+ years...wow! many things have changed, but the memories are not ones of deprivation for me.Be well and thrive. Scott

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