SB -:- have someone collected somehow -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:06:07 (GMT)

__ Carl -:- Just for the record -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:01:28 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Just for the record -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:40:45 (GMT)

__ banana bai -:- incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:16:34 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- incredibly insensitive reply and stupid -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:39:39 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:00:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Marianne, and other stuff... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:59:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:40:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ I know more -:- It happened to me -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:52:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Dear sb... -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:21:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- you will be fine sb - those days were awful -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:00:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- *** Must Read Post *** -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:14:56 (GMT)

__ __ Bob -:- incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:40:53 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- I know of one suicide... -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 21:45:19 (GMT)

__ __ sb -:- I know of one suicide... -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:59:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- sb..please email me...can't place the initials n/t -:- Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:11:01 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Some are here -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:33:22 (GMT)

__ __ sb -:- Some are here -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:43:26 (GMT)

__ Bob -:- suicides -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:12:00 (GMT)

__ __ kev -:- suicides -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:00:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Suicides and strangers in the night -:- Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:42:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ tell us then -:- suicides? Please -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:46:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ kev -:- suicides? Please -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:47:01 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- it was Talllahassee not Gainseville -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:34:23 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Yes, it happened in a Tallahassee premie house -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:03:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- thanks Richard you mentioned below -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:38:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Richard Wallace's story about this in next thread -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:40:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ selene -:- thanks are you 2 diferent people? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:43:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes, I'm Richard, he's Richard Wallace... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:50:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Gainesville -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:31:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Tallahassee it was :) -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:28:00 (GMT)

__ __ SB -:- 48 hours days, taht is what I want LOL -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:43:48 (GMT)

Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:06:07 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: have someone collected somehow Message:

all the posts regarding premies or ex-premies who comitted suicide, attempted, killed others, etc? I need them. Too much in my hands. thnaks

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 20:01:28 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: SB Subject: Just for the record Message:

My younger sister, to whom I had given satsang and encouragement to come to the Millennium Houston Astrodome event in 1973, and who 'received knowledge' there, committed suicide about 8 years later. She was not a member in any support premie community, nor had she ever been. I was perhaps her only link to the world of K. However, I was on the 'other side', involved in NYC with the Spiritual Life Society, in their ashram, and she lived in rural Tennessee in her own world. Our paths never crossed. There was no time or inclination to be involved with 'family'. It just wasn't part of the ashram life. To this day, I think my self-imposed (and subtly reinforced) remoteness to my family contributed to much dismay in their lives that I couldn't acknowledge nor allow myself to feel. My sister's suicide is something I've had to reflect upon in this context, and will continue to, for the rest of my life.

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 04:40:45 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Carl Subject: Just for the record Message:

Carl, if you ever want to email me to talk about the devastating loss of your sister, please feel free to do so. One of my big brothers brought me to knowledge too. Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:16:34 (GMT) From: banana bai Email: None To: SB Subject: incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility Message:

How are you going to count the people who did not commit suicide, who would have definitely committed suicide, had it not been for Maharaji? These numbers exist too, most emphatically, but are rather impossible to count. And yet, in a way, all those who did not commit suicide have themselves to thank too. And who is to know who is to blame on suicides for real? Suicides are famous for (sometimes) leaving blame on one person. It's like the ultimate guilt trip: 'See, it's your fault that I killed myself!' I know a woman whose husband did that. He killed himself and left a note saying it was her fault. I have to say that putting the blame on her did not make me think worse of her -- or better of him!!

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 08:39:39 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: banana bai Subject: incredibly insensitive reply and stupid Message:

You could definately count the number of people who would NOT have committed suicide if they had not gotten initiated into Ralwat's cult! The rate of suicide among premies during the heavy devotional period of the cult and life in the ashram was much higher than the national average. Of course it was never discussed or looked at. You should remember that there are many people here who lost loved ones while in the cult through suicide. Who cares what you think anyway, Miss Knowledge. Maybe you would do well by acquiring some knowledge before you make remarks like the ones above. Here's hoping you get a full face of Maharaji. Do I hear your call for participation? Wanted at the residence? Then come back and tell us how wonderful he is. Glad I'm not a premie! To think I once thought like you!

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:00:01 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: banana bai Subject: Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide Message:

You obviously have no first hand experience with the suicide of an immediate family member, banana bai. You say that suicides are famous for making those left behind feel guilty. It is not that simple. When I was in the cult, and was 17 years old, my father committed suicide. That was March, 1973. Since that time, an uncle and a cousin also committed suicide. You could say that I have had a great deal of experience with this issue. People who kill themselves are deeply depressed and usually experiencing some sort of mental impairment. The reasons that prompted them to take their lives are complex. Those of us who are left behind struggle to understand why it happened. It is a tragedy for all those involved. It is never so simple as your 'they're trying to make people feel guilty' explanation. You belittle those who took their own lives and those of us whom they left behind with such trite comments. Suicide comes from deep emotional despair. The issue of premie suicides is just as complicated. Perhaps some of these people had underlying mental problems, but ashram life, and cult life, did nothing to recognize these important issues, and in fact did an extreme disservice to these premies. No one dealt with these issues head on. Meditation, service and satsang were the cure all for every ill. When premies had emotional or physical problems, that was the prescription. As a result, mental impairments went undiagnosed and untreated. And these premies got worse. So, I do blame the culture of the cult and the ashram for turning a blind eye to these premies and their problems. Your posts reek of the revisionism so rampant in the FAQs on the Elan Vital site. Marianne

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:59:17 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thanks Marianne, and other stuff... Message:

Hi Marianne, how are you? The issue of suicide is so delicate and complex. For instance, since childhood, I have had suicidal ideations, serious thoughts of suicide. But I was fortunate because a strong part of me decided that suicide is immoral. Period. That's how I saved my own life. That in no way places a moral judgement upon anyone who cannot live any longer and takes their own life, like some people who say ''it's the coward's way out.'' No. I turned out to be a survivor. I don't know why, it just turned out that way. Yes, I had suicidal ideations while in the cult, especially at DECA and in the ashram in Gainesville. But I also found a way to self-medicate in the ashram. First, while at DECA, I was flown to Gainesville for emergency wisdom teeth extractions (two premie dentists lived there, can't remember their names, one was m's dentist). Because it was a punishable offense to be sick as a child, I welcomed the pain medication, both to relieve my physical pain and my emotional turmoil and guilt over being away from ''Service.'' I would never have known nor admitted I was addicted. I began to have severe headaches, a sign of my particular dissociative disorder which I in no way could have faced while in the cult. More medications from the doc at Broadripple. Anything to keep us going... When I was in Gainesville I had to have about five root canals and was prescribed pain medication during about a four month time period. I was in severe physical pain, but I didn't mind having a little help, if ya know what I mean. When the root canals were over and the medications stopped I discovered valerian root. All I had to do was buy it in bulk from the health food store, get capsules and I had a very cheap supply of organic valium. It did a number on my stomach, but I was definitely self-medicating because I was in a deep depression and didn't know it. I remember looking up all of the tranquilizing herbs, buying them, mixing my own 'prescription,' and filling up the capsules. I had my own pharmacopoeia! It wasn't until ten years later that I realized what I had been doing. The point here is that I was having suicidal thoughts while I was in the cult's ashram. Yet, I was doing everything m had told us to do, I followed the rules, I didn't cheat once (except for my stash of herbs). That says to me that the cult was very dangerous to both healthy minded and emotionally impaired people. I knew some very stable people who remain cult members to this day. The cult is destructive to all human psyches. I don't minimize at all what the Maharajism cult does to people, especially when it borders on life and death. Much love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 14:40:36 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Don't speak so cavalierly about suicide Message:

did not think that you had first hand experience with suicide. Am sorry. This idiot is a leach that has no idea what he/she is saying. p.s is he a he or a she?

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:52:21 (GMT) From: I know more Email: None To: Marianne Subject: It happened to me Message:

My first spell of depression came when I went to a city to ask for K. Sulekshna Bai didn't think I was ready and folks, by that time I had become a surrendered devotee, totally believeing he was who he said he was: God encarnated. I got very sick one time in Miami. My then husband and I rented a little apartment behind Dr. Ed's house, maharaji's doctor(I believe he delivered all his children too). Anyway, living there I got severely depressed and even that it sounds weird,I didn't sleep for 2 months and a week. I would ask my husband to help me,to take me to a hospital and he wouldn't. I was told to meditate. I was afraid to go out to the street. I got to a point, I learned later by a diagnosis) I acted like a 7 years old child, but at times I would see that I was sick and that the dillussions I was having were not real, but nobody would help me. All my premies friends disapperead, and Dr. Ed, even that he knew my mental condition never came to see me, no compassion there. Oh, wait, he sent a Valium. What a man! What a good doctor! The oath, you know... Meditate. It will go away. I ask to see maharaji in some point, he lived in Alton road at that times, few blocks away from my home, but he didn't came. It was emotional hell. I was left there alone all day long and terrified of leaving! I was allucinating, I saw things that didn't existed. I smell flowers that were not there. I suffer so, so much. I didn't even had the strenght or the reasoning to realize that I could comitte suicide to stop the suffering. I, I was gone. I tried to kill myself before K? No. I was a happy young person. I was a model in my country and also worked in TV,my contract finished a bit before meeting Lard. What happened to me? I was so close to dying twice. I have been suicidal many times. can you imagine GOD is in this Earth and you have doubts? You maybe be a BAD person.... One time I overdose and was in a coma for two-three days. I woke up (came out of it)with my ancles and wrists strapped, unable to move, and remained hospitalized for a month and a half. Another time, I waited for a train and when it was coming a lay on the ground. Twenty-eight cars went over my head. It didn't carry me because I was so skinny. My then husband would leave me alone, go to work (very important to him=$$$) with my 2 years old son! (Is that a loving person? Is that consciusness? hell? I know hell. And maharaji has made many minds sick. My ex-husband tried to kill himself 4 times. How is it possible? Yes, both of us have suicides in our families, but like you said, mental/emotional problems were taken as 'just mind-not real' and we were told taht meditation would cure all. Bring your sufferings and I will give you peace; didn't he said that? One day I left and went to a pay phone and called my family in Argentina and they made arrangements and I ended up in Dunellon, Fl, living for three months in the house of an Argentinian Psychiatrist, Natalio Chudnovsky, who saved my life. Very loving, compassionate person. Too bad he died and never got to see me happy as I'm today. Free. Whole again. How is it taht I left the cult on November of 99 and i feel better than ever? Yes, cults CAN be dangerous, more when they are lead by a moron like maharaji. Sorry to hear about what you went through. My uncle killed himself because his wife left him and he got depressed beyond believe. sb

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 00:21:09 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: sb Subject: Dear sb... Message:

sb, My heart goes out to you. I am sorry for the hurt and misunderstanding that you suffered at the hands of premies, and especially the premie doctor. I am sorry that the cult made you believe that if you practiced satsang, service and meditation more, you would not be 'in your mind'. I cannot imagine the pain and sorrow you must have felt which made you lie under a train... The story has always been the same - it's the premies' fault when their lives aren't perfect. According to the revisionist history, it has nothing to do with the false promises, the deification of such a flawed human being, the power bestowed upon abusive premies who were free to malign anyone they desired. I am glad that you found the Argentine doctor who cared for you. He sounds like a wonderful man. Thank you for sharing this part of your past with us, sb. I got the feeling you must have been crying while you wrote it. My thoughts are with you. Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 21:00:11 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: I know more Subject: you will be fine sb - those days were awful Message:

Prmies can argue their guts out on here about but I too know that if there is any trouble or family history, whatever, that cult involvement did not help. It didn't help me a bit. And didn't help the premies I knew that were wacked. And I have heard their timeworn arguement about 'how do you know if you would not have been worse off w/o M?' As if that is any help. How do I know indeed. Stupid arguement.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 18:14:56 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: I know more Subject: *** Must Read Post *** Message:

Thanks, SB. John.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 01:40:53 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: banana bai Subject: incredibly subjective and an exercise in futility Message:

I agree with you that you cannot come up with accurate and balanced data. But look how truthful most posters dealt with this subject, how they sought a balance between seeking the cause by the patient, the disorder, the environment and the master.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 21:45:19 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: SB Subject: I know of one suicide... Message:

Hi SB, Bill would know more details about this young woman, but her name was Debbie Katz. We lived together in the sisters' ashram in Hartford, CT until I was sent to DECA. I was told about her suicide by a premie I knew from Hartford and I was crushed. She was very young (at most 20, 21) and I was aware before I left that she was having emotional difficulties, but any such difficulties were labeled as ''the mind,'' and never dealt with by professionals. We were supposed to surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. Debbie surrendered all right. She jumped off a bridge in New York. Hers is one face of so many premies I have known that will never leave my memory. What a waste of life. I disagree with Kev. If a person committed suicide while in the Maharism cult, whether in the ashram, or anywhere for that matter, I believe it only honors them here to say their name. How could it possibly hurt them now? I will never forget how sad and shocked I was when I heard about Debbie. I felt in some way responsible for not reaching out to her when I could. I was too absorbed at the time with being a devotee of You Know Who. I was not supposed to mind others' business. It was very clear that personal problems were dealt with in secret in any ashram I lived in. I also know of one woman whose name I will not mention, who was in the ashram with me in Hartford and was going through enormous anguish over incest happening in her life with a sibling (before and during her ashram life). The house mother would not speak to anyone about it; I wish I could have given her some comfort too, but that was definitely not on the ashram agenda. It seems that ashram premies who had emotional problems were either kicked out of the ashram or transferred away. It with a very heavy heart that I relate this story. Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 05:59:25 (GMT) From: sb Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I know of one suicide... Message:

thanks Cynthia. Read if you can my post above I know more. You worked with my ex-husband at DECA. G.S sb

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Date: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 03:11:01 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com To: sb Subject: sb..please email me...can't place the initials n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:33:22 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: SB Subject: Some are here Message:

Shattered lives and tragedies

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:43:26 (GMT) From: sb Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Some are here Message:

Thanks Sir Dave! Love, sb

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:12:00 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: SB Subject: suicides Message:

I know one , in Holland, 1975. His name was Erik. he was quite young ,22 or so. He made several attempts, was hospitalized for this twice but eventually succeeded. However he did make attempts before he met m. and k., and was diagnosed with major depression (episodes of). He did OK for a while, but once he slid in a depression the cult was of course of no help. His parents did not blaim m. or DLM because they were already living in fear for this prior to m. and k. I do not think they want to be contacted, but one never knows.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 01:00:36 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: Bob Subject: suicides Message:

I know of one. She was the girl friend of an old time premie. She got K and whithin a year of geting K she killed herself. Very sad case. I think it is very sad to say that you would be hard pushed to find a premie who hasn't got a suicide story to tell. BTW I also know of one sad premie murder story that happened in my local area.

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Date: Mon, May 28, 2001 at 00:42:45 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: kev Subject: Suicides and strangers in the night Message:

Hi Kev. I think you could be right about every premie having a suicide story . I didn't think I had one myself , but have remembered . This happened in a couple of weeks in 79/80 ? , a time when I was severely traumatised through tragedy . In other words not interested in the doings of people other than those in the line of fire. Some friends of mine (not premies) were trying to offload a 'looney' old friend who had pitched up out of the blue . This guy had the look , I'd never seen it before & it's impossible to describe ;like a grey ghost ,I've seen others since but that was the 1st & I didn't realise . Serious mental illness . He got parked in a flat belonging to a premie friend who was going away for a few weeks , from which he talked to the birds & wandered around doing the music tek in public . That's when I realised he was a premie. A couple of days later he stuck a knife in his neck but lived , because someone walked through the unlocked door looking for the guy who he didn't know had gone off on holiday & called an ambulance. He got rescued by his family who owned a hotel in the Caribean so I heard . My friends told me later (who'd known him before k) that he'd been the 'bagman' in the early days of DLM , flying briefcases full of money here & there in the service of the lord .

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:46:46 (GMT) From: tell us then Email: None To: kev Subject: suicides? Please Message:

can you? SB

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 10:47:01 (GMT) From: kev Email: None To: tell us then Subject: suicides? Please Message:

Feel uncomfortable about going to details. Like names and such like on the net. Sorry.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:34:23 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: SB Subject: it was Talllahassee not Gainseville Message:

Here is all I have found so far, found it in Dave's search engine. ===============begin===================================== I remember getting the letter after the guy shot up the girls in the Tallahassee ashram (no more inner agya!). And I remember the one after Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji split (no more holy family agya!) - J Heller

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 19:03:53 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Selene Subject: Yes, it happened in a Tallahassee premie house Message:

As a premie from Tallahassee at IHQ Denver, someone official came to tell me about it. It was a tragedy to be sure, though I did not know any of the women or the male premie who did the shooting. I was told later by another woman living in the premie house that he pointed the gun at her and pulled the trigger but there were no more rounds. The story at the time was that the shooter told the police he had 'inner agya' (instructions from the guru) to kill the women. I believe GMJ, via a letter, said there was no such thing as 'inner agya' and expressed regret. The word on the premie street was that he was a 'bongo'. Sad indeed. Richard Wallace, please elaborate on your awareness of this person, the reaction in Tallahassee, etc.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 20:38:37 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Richard Subject: thanks Richard you mentioned below Message:

A few more details, the shooters name, etc. I don't have any info, I just would like to find out more about it. The story is consisitant in that he believed he was acting on 'inner agya' and M saying later that there is no such thing is in and of itself a topic for discussion. All I know is it was a term often mentioned in all the satangs, K reviews, and other community ashrams I visited. It's hard to believe M hadn't been aware premies were thinking this way, that he could not know they thought that he was guiding them in their 'inner' selves, not an uncommon concept in any religion. Is he responsible ? Well he did start the cult. I don't know I am not a lawyer but it seems to me he is responsible for a lot of the things that happened especially in the 70s when things were so structured and obviously ruled by him. Which is why the revisionism happened later.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:40:45 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Selene Subject: Richard Wallace's story about this in next thread Message:

It's posted as: Richard Wallace -:- yes, please continue Richard, thanks. (nt)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:43:15 (GMT) From: selene Email: None To: Richard Subject: thanks are you 2 diferent people? Message:

That is why I was confused. thanks.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 23:50:18 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: selene Subject: Yes, I'm Richard, he's Richard Wallace... Message:

... and we both lived in Tallahassee.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 22:31:20 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Selene Subject: Gainesville Message:

I remember living in the ashram, just before or after millennium 73, when there was a statement in the divine times or so in which m. personally stated that he did not give inner agyas. he even expessed sorry for the family and told the premies to pray and meditate for them. I remember being surprised about the praying part, because everybody knows (knew) premies don't pray. I thought it was hypocrite, but that he was 'forced ' to say this. This event, almost forgot, was about a premie killing a bunch of folks, must have been the Gainesville event.

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 02:28:00 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Bob Subject: Tallahassee it was :) Message:

I must have been thinking of Ted Bundy. Wasn't he in Gainseville? M's statement was a cover up. He was very happy to let us all presume 'inner agya' until it went wrong. I feel so bad for the families and loved ones of the murder victim and also the other injured women.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 17:43:48 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Selene Subject: 48 hours days, taht is what I want LOL Message:

thanks Selene. I really think that maybe somebody have them all. I'll keep asking. We, the ones interested in stoping rat need to know this. I'm writting letters and I am not prepared to point those facts, except for what I do have proof. :0 (read me, husband, mentally sick friends)

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