Joe -:- Passages Spin -- comments, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:50:17 (EST)

__ Barbara -:- Sartorial Saffronization -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:44:05 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Barbara, great post... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:19:58 (EST)

__ Francesca :~) -:- They loved that form of dedication -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:17:21 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Religious trappings -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:19:16 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Good point.... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:41:16 (EST)

__ AJW -:- It's another smokescreen. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:13:49 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Internal propaganda? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:29 (EST)

__ cq -:- Sandy Collier's Spin -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:06:34 (EST)

__ Suedoula -:- Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:05:27 (EST)

__ __ salsa -:- good post! ARTI -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:26:11 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- ***BEST of FORUM*** -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:39:12 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- YUP***BEST of FORUM*** Suedoula [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:43:51 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:49:58 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:25:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:27:34 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji claimed he never read... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:28:49 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- attached? - repulsed more like... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:38 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:30 (EST)

__ Jim -:- I don't see anything wrong with it -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:45:13 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Saris were too unflattering... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:50 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- The secret of saris.... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:04:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Green Papaya -:- The secret of fitting in... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:49:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Skin like an elephant's knee? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:10:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- You gotta admit . . . -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 19:10:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Green Papaya -:- Life in the Melanoma Lane -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Okay, that does it..... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:19:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- We'll have an Inidan Latvian Lunch for Cynthia -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia...Yum....My mouth -:- waters just at the thought [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:34:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Gotta point, Pat -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- LOL, Pat... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:25:01 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- I wish they'd been even more Indian -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:52:13 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Bully Sheep, LOL [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:41:42 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Pass the barf bags, please -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:18:51 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:44:50 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:08:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Correction -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:45:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Linda Pascotto -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Also...more EV lies -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:19:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ P.S. -:- Re: Also...more EV lies -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:40:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- another smoking gun! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Don't click on link above (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, I did! Now what are you going to do to me? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:20:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- So did I, and spent ten minutes looking! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:58:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Is that a gun in your pocket or .... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:27:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Pat, I delete...... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:56:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia, At least it's not -:- THAT tunnel...the blue one! [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:32:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- light at the end of the tunnel? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:09:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Buxom Latvian Lasses (v. OT) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:17:31 (EST)

Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:50:17 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Passages Spin -- comments, please Message:

Following is a verbatim transcript of a section of the video Passages -- A Master's Journey, except I summarized Glen Whittaker's long-winded and absurd story about people being turned off by saris. Anyhow, I wanted to get comments on what people think about this. First, any comments on using 'saris' (especially referring to THE LATE 1970s) as an example of what Maharaji had to work so hard to eliminate as Indian traditions? Second, referring especially to Tim Gallwey's comments, does anyone know even ONE person, just ONE, who left Maharaji because they were so attached to the ashrams and other "Indian traditions," and hence they preferred them to Maharaji and when he (supposedly) got rid of them they left for that reason? And does anyone know of even ONE person, who left Maharaji because he or she preferred the 'Maharaji religion' (ashrams and saris, I guess), which is what the video says happened? Does anyone besides me find Gallwey's condescending lecture on this subject offensive to people who no longer follow Maharaji? Here is the transcript: Narrator: By the end of the 1970s, Maharaji had successfully introduced knowledge into a number of countries. But he was becoming increasingly aware of the need to separate knowledge from its Indian cultural packaging. Too many things that are simply a part of Indian culture were considered, incorrectly, by Westerners to be an integral part of what Maharaji was offering. Sandy Collier: We brought a lot of Indian attachments with us, you know, that since knowledge came from India, that somehow we had to adapt some of the Indian things, like our Western culture wasn't good enough. Bobby Hendry: The mahatmas came to give knowledge and it was a way of spreading knowledge. The ashrams then, I found, were a way to discipline your life to practice knowledge. Unfortunately, we held on to the Indianness (sic) of it instead of the real practice of knowledge and incorporating that properly into our lives. [Did Bobby Hendry ever actually live in an ashram, BTW?] Glen Whittaker: [Glen tells the story of going to speak before the a young conservatives club (invited by his cousin), and that people were interested, but when they showed up to hear more, they were put off by 'the while sari brigade." Linda Pascotto: I was never very attracted to all the Indian things. So, when I came to hear him speak and I saw these women wearing saris, I thought oh, I don't want to wear a sari. Do I have to do that to listen to him and be in his company and receive knowledge? Because I didn't want to do that. Ron Geaves: From day one he resisted attempts to create a religion around him. It seems to me that throughout his life whenever we have attempted to build any box around him, he's always broken out of it and when he does there are those who prefer to be in the box. Narrator: For some people the changes that needed to take place were confronting. They had become attached to a lifestyle they associated with Maharaji and knowledge that was based on Indian tradition. Linda Pascotto: I had friends who lived in the ashram who stopped practicing when the ashrams closed, they felt betrayed, abandoned... [Hard edit, Linda is cut off mid-sentence] Tim Gallwey: He [Maharaji] undertook the challenge to get rid of the fluff, the conceptions that might have attracted people, that in fact some people loved more than they loved the real thing and that left people with a choice. Do I love my quote 'religion,' my 'Maharaji religion,' or do I love my actual recognition, my actual understanding of what I am seeing and experiencing. And some people said, 'no, I'll take my religion, thank you very much (laughing), and some said this is real enough that I'm gonna stick with it. ________________________ Comments, please. Anybody know anyone, ANYONE, for which that's true? Ever heard of anyone who was so "attached" to a lifestyle that was based on "Indian tradition" that they left because M didn't want them to live it anymore? Does anyone else who was a premie for more than 15 minutes find this idea insane? I mean, I suppose it's technically possible that there was such a person, but I sure never heard of it. Also, note that Linda Pascotto's comment is meant to imply that people felt betrayed BECAUSE they loved the ashrams and wanted to stay in one, and stopped practicing because M closed them and they were hurt because they loved them so much. Absurd?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:44:05 (EST) From: Barbara Email: None To: Joe Subject: Sartorial Saffronization Message:

If anything, sartorial-wise, would have run me off the cliff, it was those polyester skirts and jackets we got post-Millennium (I guess the finance people who brokered the deal figured those clothes would be better on Mars, our air-lifted destination after M '73). I remember wearing one of those forest green poly long skirts, a poly suit jacket (which made ya sweat like a farm animal), with the outfit splendidly finished off with baby's first summer tan earth shoes. One day I looked down and all I could see was this vast expanse of pilled green with my feet looking like Mickey Mouse poking out from under a tent. That was it for me. I never wore any of that crap ever again...too much pride and vanity on my part, sins or no. A poly sari would've been better any day of the week. ;) I started wearing mid-calf skirts with normal shoes, and soon thereafter I began to see less and less of those poly monstrosities. Talk about POLYmorphous perversity. I'm surprised no one's floated the idea that we all left because we didn't have a pestilent and cadaver ridden river in which to bathe.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:19:58 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Barbara Subject: Barbara, great post... Message:

Sartorial Saffronizaion. An illiteration with a punch. When I read your post it reminded me of another cult, the Scientologists, and a website I found recently by ex-cult folks. Get a load of these uniforms! Scroll all the way down the page. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous. Fondly, Cynthia http://www.xenu.net/archive/photoalbum/ [ Ex-Scientology Photo Page ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:17:21 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: Joe Subject: They loved that form of dedication Message:

Joe, If anyone still loved the ashram when they closed, it was because they were living in the 'stable' from which M picked his instructors, and unless you were on the PAM track, the only way to get close was to be an instructor. So for those who wanted to totally dedicate their lives to M, they were no longer going to be 'special' doing it. That's one thing I can think of. The sari thing is absurd. The only people who wore saris came from India, except for Maharaji's own wife. I was around from 1973 to 1985, and NO premie that I knew wore a sari -- it was never even a fad amongst the wanna be's. Maharaji was always very modern and wore suits. It was he who liked to be quaint and camp it up Indian style, along with his crown and the famous wobble dance. 'I wish I could shimmy like my sister Kate she shakes it just like jelly, on a plate' -- traditional blues tune Sari you guys, we were there. The most anyone did was wear those Indian whites, some of the guys, you know the kurta and pants thing. But hippies were ALREADY wearing that stuff before they ever heard of M. As I said in my post below on the Michael Nouri video/DVD, the only people who believe this stuff are premies. All the old press articles and the accompanying photos bear out what the premies looked like. Anyone who was around that Kittredge building and some of the other premie enterprises can tell you that suits were the way to do business, not kurtas. LOLs, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:19:16 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Joe Subject: Religious trappings Message:

Sure, that's the party line. It was all those concept crazed Indians that forced us (and M by the sound of it) to take on the trappings and create a religion. NOT! Many ex's that I've spoken to say the same thing: 'Oh, yeah we really projected a lot of stuff on M.' Well, I felt the same way and was really glad when I went back to see M for a K review in the mid-90's and got the idea all the trappings were behind us. Then the rude awakening at Long Beach where the big D of devotion was what it was obviously still about. I'll have to play devil's advocate here. There was one premie around the mid-80's who told me he missed the ceremony and ritual of Maharajism. He therefore took up a similar guru-devotee relationship with another teacher. The person he revered was Swift Deer. He was part Native-American shaman and part Irish Viet Nam vet. Swift Deer had quite a following among the Miami premies at that time. His 'events' consisted of ritual gatherings including smoking a peace pipe filled with tobacco and marijuana. He did a very special (read expensive) ceremony called the Kadoshka (sp?) wherein he and his wife would have everyone disrobe. Those two would then come around the room and inspect the participants genitals and declare what type they had. A man would be told he had a 'tipili' meaning tipi pole shaped organ, etc. Woman were 'diagnosed' as having a 'tiger lilly', etc. I'm absolutely not making this up. I could name notable names but would not want to embarrass anyone. Needless to say, in such a 'revealing' environment, marriages were broken up and worse. There are several other notable ex's, including one highly visible SAM (security around maharaji) who fell for the Mafu scam, similar to Ramtha. Mafu was touted to be a several thousand year old being. Again, they flocked to her seeking the ritrual and religion abandoned by M. Brian S, her group was in Portland. Ever heard of her? These examples are certainly extreme and not at all representative of the thousand who have left M&K. I just couldn't resist pointing out how one bizarre religion can encourage others. Having said that, I'm certain that virtually all of those seeking other religions were also very disappointed with M's lack of integrity and sought another teacher they could trust. Richard, was sohung but now I'm tipili

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:41:16 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Good point.... Message:

You would think that if what Tim Gallwey and Ron Geaves were saying had any validity, then premies would have left the Maharaji cult, and looked for another, more religious or Hindu/traditional, trip to follow so they could continue the 'Indian tradition lifestyle' they just loved so much, that they rejected Maharaji when he supposedly dropped them. I suppose there exists somebody who did this like you mention, but I sure never heard of it. And the other point is that the Hindu rituals are still happening, both darshan and arti being prime examples. The other logical disconnect in Gallwey's spin is that Maharaji, himself, like Cynthia said, was the major instigator of the Hindu rituals. It wasn't like they existed at the beginning and he gradually got rid of them, because the historical truth is that things like Krishna outfits, darshan, Arti, Holi, etc., actually INCREASED in frequency until the 80s. Maharaji was laying the Hindu rituals in ever increasing helpings on us (maybe not saris, though :)), rather than vice versa, and in a fashion the direct opposite of someone who was trying to 'separate' knowledge from 'Indian cultural traditions.'

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:13:49 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Joe Subject: It's another smokescreen. Message:

Hi Joe, I think this 'blame Hinduism' spin is just another smokescreen. The nub of Rawat's trip is that he's the 'Living Perfect Master', just like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and Mohammed. And on that level, nothing has changed. The latest cult publications still refer to this status, albeit obliquely. The premies around Rawat believe this, as do most of the remaining old-timers. You're dead right to expose the new revisionist cult line on the 70s. It's yet another attempt at damage limitation. They're coming up with new explanations of themselves ten to the dozen. But at the core of the cult is the Captain, still sitting on his throne waiting for the opportunity to get his Krishna crown out again. (Maybe he still wears it in his living room.) And he still surrounds himself with people who would go out and tell the world he was Peter Pan, and could fly, if that's what he asked them to do. It's a bankrupt, discredited personality cult, with a morally bankrupt, confused person at the head, heading for another type of bankruptcy. Yes Joe, it's absurd. Anth, still likes curry.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:29 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: AJW Subject: Internal propaganda? Message:

It seems that the video was put together as propaganda for the premies, most of whom probably have had some misgivings about what happened over the years. This gives a very simplistic rationale, from the high priests of the cult, no less. The ones who were around at the very beginning, have had knowledge the longest, and who are also willing to blame themselves and the other premies for all the problems. Linda Pascotto told me that the video was not intended to have any contrary views because it was put together for people, 'who enjoy knowledge.' I asked her why she might think that 'people who enjoy knowledge' would be less interested in historical accuracy, but she didn't respond.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:06:34 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: Sandy Collier's Spin Message:

So Sandy 'spin-doctor' Collier says 'We brought a lot of Indian attachments with us, you know, that since knowledge came from India, that somehow we had to adapt some of the Indian things ...' er, Sandy, the 'Indian attachments' wouldn't include things like ... Krishna Crowns, ... celebrations of the Hindu festival 'Holi', ... full-frontal pranams ... the concept of 'lotus feet', etc. etc. would they? We were the ones who brought that to the West, were we? PS Joe - next time you've got the Passages vid on your player, check out the scene where the anonymous narrator (as were all the interviewees, which says something in itself, but I digress) - where the narrator starts speaking, right near the beginning of the film. There's a few shots (in black & white) of an early 70s demonstration, yeah? Now, look at the writing on the placard that one of the demonstrators is holding. Got it? Feel free to share it with the Forum? Like Kelly said about them using the music to Arti (played almost subliminally on solo guitar at the end of the film) - is someone taking the piss or what?!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:05:27 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please Message:

Are they trying to say that we were out there looking for an Hindu religion to follow? Then we could trot out our saris and arti trays and altars, start cooking indian food, move into ashrams, live a renunciate lifestyle and express our devotion by kissing someone's feet? That we even had a clue what 'maya' was and were looking for a way to get beyond it? And Maharaji came along and conveniently filled our need for a master to worship? Not how I remember it. Sorry, I NEVER heard M say NOT to do any of those things. Wait, there was that darshan line when I distinctly remember him saying 'Stop kissing my feet! Who do you think I am, the Lord or something?' No, I must have imagined that. Then there was the time where he said 'Take this knowledge, go home and practice it, be happy and you never have to come and see me or kiss my feet or give me any of your money so I can buy myself expensive things ever again. Just leave a thank you note at the door when you go.' Hmmm, wait, don't think he said that either. My fave part is how he resisted all the attempts at creating a religion from day one. The Krishna crown -- oh I bet he was fighting tooth and nail on that one, too. 'I won't wear that crown, I won't. Those people out there might think I am God or something. And I refuse to dance. No way.' I think I just realized that poking yourself in the eyes for long periods of time can cause delusion and amnesia. Best to all, Susan

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:26:11 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: good post! ARTI Message:

In India today people still sing arti to maharaji, and yes, he hasn't stop them from doing it each time, with the ghee candles too. You are my father, you are my mother....you are the Supreme Power in Person, I bow down at your feet... MASTER. Oh yeah, we made it all up. Many of us went literally nuts trying to fit him in our lives and now he wants to make us look like lunatics; what a farce! Who is writing the tell all book? ())

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:39:12 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: ***BEST of FORUM*** Message:

Yes, girl, you deserve it on this one. It just doesn't get any deeper, does it?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:43:51 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: YUP***BEST of FORUM*** Suedoula [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:49:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there Message:

You know, being serious now, I think that there is a bit of a point to be made that many premies were indeed looking for an Indian guru trip or were, at least, a bit enchanted with the prospect and flirting with the idea. 'A real life guru of your own!' -- kind of thinking. This is only relevant in the early seventies, mind you, a few short years after even Sammy Davis Jr. and all those other 'hipsters' wore their Nehru jackets and beads on Johnny Carson, after normal, stupid kids riding the trend of the day camped out in the pages of Be Here Now ('the Guru will come to you when you're ready'). I know I, personally, wanted something like that. HOWEVER, what these guys don't mention is that, as soon as we fell prey to Maharaji's siren song, we quickly dropped all that stuff. Maharaji, we understood, was so much the 'real thing' we could relax all that silly guru stuff. Ater all, it was never really us anyway, just another vain attempt to find the truth within us. Afterwards, it was as if we could have our cake and eat it too. Maharaji, the Lord of all Lords, transcended the east from whence he came. He didn't need that tradition. Like everything else in this universe (and any others, by the way), he created it. All the same, that tradition was rich in the grace of small, proto-Maharaji's, guys like Jesus, Krishna, Guru This, Swami That. Thus, we were welcome to dip into the writings of guys like Nanak, Ramakrishna, Kabir, just like Maharaji, his Holy Family and the Mahatmas did, for prophecy, confirming scripture and inspiration. But we weren't bound by it and didn't need it. Maharaji was always very clear on that score and thus so were we. The main thing is that I never knew a single premie who didn't seem to understand this. So if Maharaji wanted to get Indian with us, say play a little Holi or something, that was fine. But we weren't dependent on it. Our myth was all about how vastly superior we were to such trappings, however relevant.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:25:01 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM Message:

In fact, that 'vastly superior' stuff exists to this day. I know of an active premie that seems to relish every opportunity to poke at my mother's 'religion' because in their 'vastly superior' mind, they don't need that 'religion' stuff. What the premies are doing, is, uh, so vastly superior to all that. No scriptures, no rituals. I mean, all you need is a pile'o dough, some time off work for programs, and a satellite dish. Yeah, baby. --f

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:27:34 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca :~) Subject: Re: Vastly superior, RIGHT ON, JIM Message:

Plus, tailored Armani suits, $20,000US dresses, any car imaginable, (just have a ''fundraiser''), the very top of the line make up, a large allowance for impulsive shopping sprees, and A very special, handmade, container for your KRISNA CROWN. I agree, Vastly Superior Indeed.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:04 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Actually -- honestly -- there IS a point there Message:

Good points, Jim. And just why does he still, to this day, quote Indian saints and poets, if he's trying to get away from Indian influences? He always wants his cake and to eat it too, although he did make fun of birthday cakes at Long Beach and called them a waste of resources. Now that was funny, inlight of his boat and jet.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:28:49 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Maharaji claimed he never read... Message:

the Gita, or any of those Indian texts which he so often quoted in the past and still quotes. He said (paraphrased) I never read that, it's just what I was told. The freak.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:38 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Joe Subject: attached? - repulsed more like... Message:

For a super-devotional era (late 70's) aspirant and then premie, I got interested in spite of the Bhakti bullshit, not because of it. I became involved because K was the one Truth and Guji the one-and-only provider of said product - and for that reason alone. I was at that time well past my teenage hippy phase and much more into an urban punk-type attitude musically and culturally. So my first sight of charnamrit, first singing of Arti, first hearing of the need to 'love', 'devote' and 'surrender to' Maharaji were anathema, not to say a profound embarrassment. Ok, for those reasons alone, getting rid of them was probably a smart move, propagation-wise in the West, but to pretend the initial attraction for any of us was the curry flavour is so wrong as to be outrageous. Even then, we were jokingly and disparagingly referring to our 'rites and rituals' - and so were the initiators, and M too, I think. We all knew from the outset, that the trappings were just trappings. (M was already giving satsang in Western business suits and we liked that.) Because we secretly knew the whole trip was an inner journey - a unique connection with (call him what you like) - the Lord of Creation, the primary source, the living incarnation etc. If these pathetic revisionists are remotely concerned about the historical truth, they could maybe mention the elephant in the cult's living room. That they will not, or can not, merely demonstrates the elephant is still in that room.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:48:30 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Passages Spin -- comments, please Message:

Well, Joe, The answer to your question is NO, no, no. The only women who wore saris that I know of in goomraji's world of ashrams or in the community were Indian women. And of course, Marolyn Rawat and Claudia Rawat!! During the 70s the one who wore the most Indian clothes was Maharaji! Krishan pants, crowns, malas, shoeless feet on a pillow set upon large platforms, at large festivals named by him as: Guru Puja, Hans Jayanti, Holi, etc. I don't remember m ever sitting up on the stage and saying STOP! when we screamed Bolei Shri.....at the top of our lungs, nor when Charanand cut his album of devotional songs which he sang at the festivals on stage swinging his arm and clicking his fingers to the beat with bliss all over his face, dressed in what? Indian clothing. I don't think I want to see that video after all. Plus, I will go one step further than you and say that these people weren't 'spinning' they were lying! I'll take a barf bag, too. Cynthia P.S. My transcription is coming along well. Not too much longer, but definitely, it is worth the wait!!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:45:13 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: I don't see anything wrong with it Message:

The fact is, Joe, I never wanted to wear a sari myself. So she's got a bit of a point there, don't you think?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:57:50 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Saris were too unflattering... Message:

Well, I though saris made people look fat, so I was against them from the beginning. I mean, look at Mataji. I'm fairly certain that all the women, and a few of the men, I knew who were premies had a closet full of saris and were livid when the directive came down, I think in 1979, in the late, late, 70s, that they weren't supposed to wear them anymore. They left in droves. Maharaji had to stare at the ocean for weeks, to figure out how to deal with the difficult sari problem, as this remarkable historical documentary video shows. Only people like Linda Pascotto, Glen Whittaker and Tim Gallwey, who were so connected with their 'experience' survived the sari ban. Yes, it was very difficult for people. :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:04:49 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Joe Subject: The secret of saris.... Message:

Yes, Joe, they make svelte ladies look fat but they also make fat ladies look....well...like they're wearing a sari. They cover a multitude of sins and big butts but not double chins. Could you imagine Mata Ji in some lime-green lycra stretch pants? She would have looked like an avocado or a green mango.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:49:58 (EST) From: Green Papaya Email: None To: PatC Subject: The secret of fitting in... Message:

Could you imagine Mata Ji in some lime-green lycra stretch pants? She would have looked ike an avocado or a green mango. Yeah, but in Miami she would've fit right in, 'specially if she wore one of those damned Jiffy Pop hats and, if she caught enough rays, she would've looked like an elephant's knee like all the other grey panthers down there. Wolfie's, dairy bars and cafe cubano...that's all I remember from Miami. })

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:10:10 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Green Papaya Subject: Skin like an elephant's knee? Message:

To complete her Miami Bitch outfit she would have had to have her hair in a bouffant all puffed up to hide the bald spots and dyed blue or even pink and also wear a halter top showing all the liver spots on her tits while you sat trying to eat your pastrami sandwich at Wolfie's. I think I am starting to prefer saris. :C)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 19:10:32 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: PatC Subject: You gotta admit . . . Message:

she did wear a mean pair of glasses. Edith Prickly would have been proud. ;) Susan

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:25 (EST) From: Green Papaya Email: None To: PatC Subject: Life in the Melanoma Lane Message:

You betcha, skin like an elephant's knee, and so brown it's almost purple. I guess that's why those Jiffy Pop hats were so popular--for those bad hair days when it was too much trouble to cover the bald spots, and you're late to meet your buddettes at the Dairy Bar. Btw, what does one eat at a Dairy Bar? Waitress: What can I get you, Miss? Elephant's Knee Lady: Oh, you called me Miss. I'll remember you in my will. Let's see...I'll have a bowl of half yogurt, half lowfat cottage cheese. A side of sour cream sprinkled with brown sugar (gotta watch my health, dontcha know?). And for dessert, I'll have a quart of vanilla ice cream, with hotfudge and tons of whipped cream, none of that Cool Whip crap. Got any nuts? Waitress: Oh, you want the Death Wish Special... (and sotto voce to her co-worker): Call 911 and tell them to get here in 'bout half an hour.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:19:49 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: PatC Subject: Okay, that does it..... Message:

Now I have to go out and buy another outfit for the much anticipated Latvian lunch. You guys are so mean. Do you know how long it took me to find those green stretch lycras and Jiffy Pop hat? -Vicki, who wore a sari once, just once, but they made me do it or I couldn't stay at the birthday party

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:23:34 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Vicki Subject: We'll have an Inidan Latvian Lunch for Cynthia Message:

We can all wear saris and I'll cook an Indian feast for Cynthia. Yummy. Now that has made my mouth water. Must have lunch - fried curried potatoes, fresh chapatis and mango chutney. Have fun.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:34:48 (EST) From: Cynthia...Yum....My mouth Email: None To: PatC Subject: waters just at the thought [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:38 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: PatC Subject: Gotta point, Pat Message:

How about: Mata Ji in jeans. Or better yet, hold on to you lunch: Maharaji in speedos!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:25:01 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: PatC Subject: LOL, Pat... Message:

I think the only thing I still like from being in the cult is Indian food. In Hartford there was a great little Indian restaurant named 'Bombay' that made fabulous food, at reasonable prices. It was in the south end of Hartford which was predominately an Italian neighborhood where many of the Hartford premies lived, as well as the sister's ashram. I love the stuff, but given that ya can't even get a decent pizza in Vermont, I haven't had the pleasure in quite some time. Anyone remember when M went on a diet during the 70's? Yup, I know it was true. Whoever was the cook at the time had the task of removing all the fatty stuff from his favority Indian recipes, like butter, and he started eating fresh fruits. It did clear up his zits for a while, too. Cynthia, never wore a sari, never will

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:52:13 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: I wish they'd been even more Indian Message:

When I first attended a satsang program, it was a public program at Leeds University and I had an hour to kill. I sat at the back and was completely repelled by the altar, the white cloth, the big picture, the bowing and the strange chanting of 'bully sheep' or something like that. Now, if I could have been equally repelled when I next attended satsang several months later, by, for instance, everyone wearing saris (including the men), then I might have run a mile, and the next 25 years might have been different for me. So yes, they weren't Indian enough. John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:41:42 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: JHB Subject: Bully Sheep, LOL [nt] Message:

Hi John,

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:18:51 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Joe Subject: Pass the barf bags, please Message:

I sat with Linda when she came to our little community about a year ago. She was really quite charming and nice, and actually, the politest person that has ever come through here. She insisted on paying for all her own expenses, and since the hotel had already been paid for, donated the equivalent to the community fund. Some of us went out to dinner and she told the story of the day she got knowledge, or the next, Maharaji was riding in the back of her camper. There was some program going on. She had a picture of Sai Bubba, or some such person, in the camper and felt embarressed. He looked at it and said 'He's cool.' I'm paraphrasing but it's true. Imagine my surprise at finding out Linda's background and connections. At no time did she ever express anything about Indian trappings, infact, we were eating in an Indian restaurant with an Indian cc. I've never heard one person that is a premie or is an ex, express one of these sentiments. They sound like convenient spin doctoring. It's a pathetic attempt to divert attention from the real, factual issues. So that's where these trolls learned their tricks from.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:44:50 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Linda Pascotto Message:

I sent an email to Linda Pascotto on the ashram issue and how her comments were used in the video. It appeared to me that her comments were taken out of context and used for a purpose that perhaps she did not intend. I wanted to give her the change to explain, but it was almost as if she didn't know what I was talking about. She responded and said yes, there was a friend of hers, who is no longer a premie, who felt 'betrayed' when the ashrams were closed. I told her lots of people felt that, but not because they 'loved' the ashram lifestyle, but because they began to question Maharaji because he had harrangued people to stay in the ashrams for years before, when they were never really necessary in the first place, and people had been damaged as a result. She seemed not to get the connection or seemed unable to comprehend that there was any distinction, or pretended she didn't see one, but she also summarily blamed all the problems in the cult on unnamed 'power hungry' people, and for whose actions, Maharaji has been, unfairly, blamed. I emailed her again, but she didn't respond. Yes, she did seem nice.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:08:55 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Linda Pascotto Message:

I think Maharaji was quite smart in hand selecting her to head up participation service. He specifically asked her. She said she didn't have that kind of experience and he said things like 'You cook, you decorate, you garden, you've had to deal with schools (from her child/children). Don't sell yourself short.' So she said yes, she filled out the participation form, and voila! got the job. I had no idea of her wealth, so I highly doubt she was ever in the ashram. I had no idea of her connection to Valerio. In short, Maharaji made a calculated move. Get her in a noteworthy position and she's tied to the cause even more. Can you imagine what she's seen, heard and observed, all buried in her brain, filed under 'denial'? He doesn't really care how he uses people or how he does it. I bet he laughs at premies falling for these chess moves and despises the stupidity at the same time.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:17:43 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: Linda Pascotto Message:

Actually, she said in the video that by the time Maharaji got married, she already had a child. I don't think she ever lived in the ashram. I understand her maiden name was Linda Cohen and she came from a wealthy family. I'm not surprised she got the 'job.' Her husband is not Valerio, but Alvaro Pascotto, who is M's lawyer and one of his most trusted legal advisors (I think an aviation lawyer), and is also a lawyer at Latham & Watkins in Los Angeles. So, Linda obviously had an inside track on the job.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:45:39 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Correction Message:

Alvero Pascotto works for Irell & Manella in Los Angeles, and not Latham & Watkins in Los Angeles. It wasn't one mega-huge law firm, it was another one. Just to keep the record straight. :)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:30:00 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Linda Pascotto Message:

That's what I found so funny. She sounded generally surprised that he would think of her in heading up such a big position. Which leads me to think, she had been busy with her family and domestic life. He almost had to convince her to take this new job he created. The application was just a formality to cover his rear. Remember, he doesn't have anything to do with Elan Vital and it's operations. Or so we've been told!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:19:35 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Also...more EV lies Message:

Amazing that Linda Pascotto said Maharaji personally asked her to head up participation at Elan Vital. See, Elan Vital claims that Maharaji has no management control over what Elan Vital does. Now, we all know that's crap, but her admitting that he makes management/personnel decisions is kind of strange in that light.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:40:59 (EST) From: P.S. Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Also...more EV lies Message:

This was at the same dinner. She said she didn't tell people the story but felt okay about sharing that. There were only four of us and I'm sure she never dreamed the gopi she was sitting next to time was about up! I feel bad because she was so nice and has been duped just like the rest of us, but then again, I don't because she has to know what's going on with Abi and these revisionist lies. The one flash of anger was when she said school teachers should have to take psycho/personality tests before they are allowed around children. I gathered her own child had been harmed, but that was just an assumed deduction. It's a shame really. There she is, a perfectly decent human being, the one with money no less, and more right to its power than Maharaji, and she was very genuine. I don't like how this cult uses and abuses and mixes up brains so they can't see anything clearly anymore. We get accused of hating, but really, I feel nothing but compassion for premies like Linda. She might be a hardened honcho by now, but I'll always remember her humbled in her new service. Very sweet. In the infamous words of Miss Sylvia Salsa 'Maharaji sucks'!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:03 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: another smoking gun! (nt) Message:

another smoking gun! (nt) [ cq ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:24:58 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: Don't click on link above (nt) Message:

Don't click on link above - hotboards glitch

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:20:01 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: cq Subject: Well, I did! Now what are you going to do to me? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 16:58:40 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: PatC Subject: So did I, and spent ten minutes looking! Message:

Couldn't find any guns tho, smoking or otherwise. Chris, why don't you just tell us what you want to say? John the ten minutes older.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:27:16 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: JHB Subject: Is that a gun in your pocket or .... Message:

...are you just pleased to see me? Nope, mo smoking guns but very good porn......b) John, I thought you would chastise me for making silly jokes that you have to delete before putting the archives to bed. :C)

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 17:56:42 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: PatC Subject: Pat, I delete...... Message:

....nothing. I do thank you for the concern you have expressed (several times) for my workload regarding archives, but I don't have the time, the tools, nor the inclination, to delete posts once I've taken an archive. Even with these limitations, I am still 3 months behind with putting archives on line, and currently even those that are online don't work since the move. John the visionary who can see the light at the end of the tunnel

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:32:57 (EST) From: Cynthia, At least it's not Email: None To: JHB Subject: THAT tunnel...the blue one! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:09:22 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: JHB Subject: light at the end of the tunnel? Message:

What's your secret? Got a couple of buxom Latvian lasses helping you? I sure hope so.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 18:17:31 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: PatC Subject: Buxom Latvian Lasses (v. OT) Message:

Pat, As we've been open with each other in the past, I know I can trust you, and that this won't go beyond these four walls, but there is a buxom Latvian lass that has been on my mind recently. Generally, Latvian lasses are slim, in fact, as my nephew said when he was here two years ago, 'Riga is full of supermodels' (which is true for any British man visiting). So to this buxom Latvian lass - should I raise a large family with her? John the seeking advice.

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