Patrick Wilson -:- To David Anderson (part 1) -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:54:05 (EDT)

__ David Andersen -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:03:33 (EDT)

__ __ Joe -:- I think that's kind of dangerous -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:40:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ David Andersen -:- Re: I think that's kind of dangerous -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:24:04 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:58:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Francesca maybe a BEST OF FORUM -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:30:11 (EDT)

__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ David AndersEn with an E -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:16:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: To David Anderson -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:26:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Credibility and pianos -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:22:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Credibility and pianos -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:23:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- Brilliant, Patrick [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:05:21 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- ''Blame is evil' ?? -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:02:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Great posts, Patrick and Dermot, thanks (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:39:59 (EDT)

__ __ wolfie -:- real and deep love before I knew him -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:55:58 (EDT)

__ Amsterdam -:- To Patrcik -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:06:04 (EDT)

__ __ Steve -:- Re: To Amsterbjorn -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:07:01 (EDT)

__ __ Joe -:- On 'Sulking' -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:27:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: On 'Sulking' -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:53:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Your alias is anagram of 'Mad Master'! - Cool... -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:09:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oh come on, be fair -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:18:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:28:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ daisy -:- Re: It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:23:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:52:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ashram Abuse -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:29:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ deborah -:- Re: Remember the Deprogramming -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:08:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: Ashram Abuse -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:14:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :( -:- And isn't it a shame you'd get judged as a whiner -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 19:49:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Daisy -:- Re: P.S. I had fun, too. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:24:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: P.S. I had fun, too. -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:54:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: It sure was a different ashram culture -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:17:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Above post meant for Amsterdam NT -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:30:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: about ahsrams -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:16:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- To NEW READERS -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:32:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- I try my best to be fair -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:13:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: I try my best to be fair -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:35:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: Ashram -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 08:16:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Ashram -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:59:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: Ashram etc. -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 18:59:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Amsterdam too much circumlocution!!! NT -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:04:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Amsterdam -:- Re: Amsterdam too much circumlocution!!! NT -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:08:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Ok Ok i read itagain and -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:39:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- AND AMSTERDAM -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:43:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Re: AND AMSTERDAM -:- Thurs, Jul 19, 2001 at 06:50:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Oh come on, be fair -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:58:09 (EDT)

__ such -:- V Gd post! (nt -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:57:42 (EDT)

__ PatC -:- Thank you, Patrick -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 15:43:42 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 11:42:16 (EDT)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 13:22:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:21:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:05:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:02:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 21:39:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- How do you know? -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:12:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Isabella -:- How do you know? [nt] -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 23:56:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You never answered the 'how do you know?' -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:33:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- PMFJI -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:40:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: PMFJI -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 23:22:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nurse Tessa -:- Doctor! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:14:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Re: Fraud! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 06:26:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Who writes the songs -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:30:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: One of David's responses to me -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:37:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: One of David's responses to me -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:17:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ David A -:- Re: One of David's responses to me -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 00:12:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Way -:- Another question for David Andersen -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:27:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yes Way, good post (nt) -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:03:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ wolfie -:- very good questions nt -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:21:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ David Andersen -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 14:07:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:11:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ David A. -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 03:17:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Gee, David, -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:22:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ David A. -:- Re: Gee, David, -:- Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:23:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ;C) -:- donner YOU !** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:11:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Personal Observation -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:28:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Personal Observation -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:25:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ like est to landmark forum -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:39:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ SF -:- last msg from selene -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:40:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- David A... -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:02:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS ! -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 17:31:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ David Andersen -:- Re: PS ! -:- Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:16:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: PS ! -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 20:38:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Isabella -:- Re: ** Best Of Forum** -:- Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 16:22:44 (EDT)

Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 08:54:05 (EDT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: All Subject: To David Anderson (part 1) Message:

Hi David A, I remember your music too. I saw you at Tim Hain's house a few years back and thought you played a mean lap steel. It's a good development to see people posting with their real names and also being civil to each other. I would like to chat with you about my experiences (I was involved with doing music for Maharaji on and off for some years). I guess we may have some experiences in common. I have been interested to talk amongst people on these forums for some years because I felt that there was some arrrested development and disfunctional stuff amongst premies that could be addressed, even healed by talking. I also have always felt quite strongly that Maharaji himself has some clear responsibilty in the way that those peoples lives panned out, who followed his recomendations to adopt a certain lifestyle - a lifestyle which he encouraged us to focus on more and more - exclusively serving him and surrendering one's own desires. I received Knowledge when I was 17 (in '74) and my life became totally absorbed into following Maharaji. I actually was a rather good musician myself at that young age and soon my musical aspirations naturally transformed into the desire to play music for M. Basically I used (like everyone else) to follow M around the world for many years and soon got the message that he wanted us to 'surrender our lives' . I lived in Brighton in the UK in the seventies. Mike Finch and I started the ashram there, under the watchful eye of David Smith, Charanand etc. For me it was an intense ride because I never really got my youthful desires fullfilled and, although I put my enthusiasm and good faith into going in the direction Maharaji recommended, there was an underlying heartbreak at having to deny the things in life that I had so much wanted to do -ie (at that age) play around with girls, get high, play music and get a band together - be successful etc.. I just had all this stuff coming at me to surrender, and being sincere and, in truth, quite intimidated by Maharaji as 'The Master', the supposed Divine Authority, I felt pressured and extremely obligated to sacrifice my life to serve him. This was absolutely irrefutably because of the tone of Maharaji's satsangs at the time which I was listening to very, very closely. I heard him be very clear and demanding about this 'surrender' stuff. To a sincere young man it was very humbing and even 'humiliating' if you will. I know I wasn't getting 'the wrong end of the stick' of Maharaji's message, because I made a point to try to practice Knowledge the way he wanted, not, as he would warn, by ' fitting Knowledge into my life' but rather by 'giving my life to Knowledge - to Him'. That was his message at that time and the consequences are still with us and are playing out. It didn't help that Maharaji appointed guys like David Smith who personally put the absolute shits up me and many others about how we should surrender and give up our own desires etc.- and I have to say that I consider this was essentially Maharaji's responsibility because Smith was merely passing on, with a really heavy vibe, Maharaji's strict edicts to potential ashram members . I gave in to this requirement with a trusting heart for years, living in the ashram and giving up evrything I loved, which as you can imagine was itself awrenching sacrifice. Can you believe it, but Maharaji was quite clear that we should cut ties with family. For me this was a sad development because I had a wonderful family and an elderly father who died whilst I was in the ashram and whom I rarely saw. Eventually in about 1980, Barry Evans (who knew I had been a reasonably good guitar player) was given the 'service' of getting some 'surrendered' musicians together and he rescued me from my distant ashram post (where I was basically miserable and frustrated) and I did some music with them in London. Actually it was a weird time but we had fun being a more loose lot - Danny Ellis, Tim Hain, Tony Wade, Barry, Paul Mattocks, Lorna, Jim Gaffney, are a few names that come to mind as being good friends from that period. Later the powers that be decided we were having too much fun for 'ashram' premies and Danny and I got sent to the most distant God-forsaken ashram to do penance (Dick Cooper being the guy in charge then in the UK). Another miserable period ensued for me then which ended when I was unceremoniously slung out by the co-ordinator of that particular ashram. (who had been told to weed out people who were anything other than totally without their own agendas and servile. My widowed mum took me back in and with some money left to me by my father (who had just died) I bought an 8-track recording system and started making inroads into the TV music world. Frankly ifit hadn't been for this ashram/ surrender debacle I know that I would have had a much better shot at making a musical career, although I have to say that the huge effort I then made , aged 25 in 1981, to establish an income doing music , has paid off quite well. Ironically, after being 'liberated' from the ashram system my dream of meeting Maharaji came true. I used to supply Visions with tracks for M's videos quite often, and I guess for a while I was sort of flavour of the month for background music. I met Maharaji on several occasions at Reigate, to chat with him about synths and stuff, which he was becoming interested in. Later he came to my house in Brighton with Peter Dawson, Monica and Mike Woods who filmed him tinkering with keyboards and stuff for a clip. Later I went to LA, rehearsed with Geoff and Kim et al, and played guitar at Rome, Madrid and some other places -did some recordiing and stuff. I got to see quite a lot of Maharaji and his family and the 'backstage' scenario. I too felt a much more natural connection with Maharaji and he seemed friendly enough. I did notice that those around him were often very tense and uptight in his presence and that made me uncomfortable. Also I felt that he did little to discourage this obsequiousness -in fact I judged that he kind of rather liked it that way. I have just found that I have very gradually backed off from the whole scene and now, with hindsight, feel that the period of my life spent being an aspirant and ashram premie was in many ways, a deeply unhappy and unneccessary experience. Of course I made many friends and I learned a lot, as one does in all difficult situations in life anyway. Regarding Maharaji's controversial lifestyle - the reports of his various behaviours that paint the picture of a Master with feet very much of clay - I would say this: For the sake of discerning the truth, I have gone out of my way to talk with the people who feel so strongly that they have reported this 'secret' or supposedly 'private' stuff. Most notably perhaps I met Michael Dettmers and asked him to explain himself to me personally over a meal whilst he was in London. After talking at length with him I could tell that he was compelled through conscience to speak out about things that he felt were grave inconsistencies that Maharaji was responsible for, that had a damaging effect on people. I was open to this possibility because I too had increasingly seen that painful things that had happened in the past were effectively being swept under the carpet in the name of 'being positive' , ignoring the negativity etc -rather than being dealt with. I have since got to know Michael quite well and I believe that his reports about his experiences with Maharaji are all true and that any truly concientious premie should examine their feelings very closely about what these things really say about their image of who Maharaji is and what kind of pedestal he be put on. I personally felt that Maharaji had never addressed my painful experiences in the ashram, and that, although a more lenient and 'lighter' chapter seemed to be the order of the day, I still hurt badly underneath from what I can only describe as the 'abuse' that went on and this was somehow being denied. Having invested so much trust in Maharaji over the years, to learn that he may not have been so deserving of such enormous trust and yet had demanded it and indeed 'inspired it' back then, was deeply upsetting. Maharaji does not seem to care that those who really gave up a lot in the past to follow him, and who probably trusted him a hell of a lot more than those who nowadays have to give up very little and are not made to feel guilty about pursuing their own lives and agendas, have had to face an enormous blow when their faith has been so catastrophically tested. Not only does Maharaji not want to explain why he demanded us to give up so much but he apparently condones that premies virtually deny a lot of home truths. Naturally, even though one has been taught to ignore doubts, it is hard to do so when one's better sense and indeed one's heart and conscience are screaming that one does a reality check on one's life as a premie. What we see now is a natural backlash from people who know what actually went on - who invested a lot and who feel that Maharaji has not met their trust and commitment with any kind of the love, care and concern that one would hope from someone claiming to be inspired by divine love. Like you, I developed a personal love for Maharaji. I have purposely backed away from his influence because I did not enjoy it any longer. I feel that this was directly because Maharaji never addressed the deep hurt I nursed from surrendering my youth so totally to him in the seventies. It'sd just down to that. I could have had so much of a better time. When I see him and his family enjoying so much the pleasures of the world I cannot help but remember how my youth was spent often in deep pain at having to give up friends, family, things that I loved to do, to spend years - whole weekends sometimes in endless satsangs - doing menial boring jobs in places and with people I didn't particularlyy gel with, crying under my meditation blanket - confused as to why I had to endure such a tough test of faith. Quite honestly, I find that I have been so relieved to stop being around premies and the whole scene. If anyone likes it that's fine - but my experience is that the way it is has stifled the development of some very sincere beautiful human beings whom I loved -and I hate to see them proclaiming to be in touch with Truth and love etc whilst clearly lacking the guts, conscience or empathy to see that their 'exclusive' experience and insight about life is in many ways a blinkered and narrow one. If you see Maharaji, would you say hi from me and add that I think that he would help himself and a lot of former and current premies by facing up to these issues and being a bit less remote and vague about the past . He obviously thinks it's fine to just abandon people like myself to our doubts rather than explain himself more - he is more concerned with spreading 'Knowledge Lite' to a new generation of people than helping those former premies who gave up their lives for him and are having huge difficulty in coming to terms as adults with what hit them. If he wants to know why I don't want to be involved these days it is because I find it hard to truly trust someone who put me through so much pain when I was a naive and trusting kid, and who cannot find it in their heart to so much as offer any clarity or explanation. It is not good enough just to be told to not doubt in the face of such personal experiences. I'm sorry but I don't believe that what Maharaji is doing is so wholesome or right. It hurts to have to make harsh judgements about someone whom one worshipped and loved for years - but it this is about moving on and growing - learning -honesty and integrity. It has to be done. Regarding meditation and the idea of Masters etc. I would say that I feel there is an obvious case for the benefits of teachers who do not abuse the trust of their pupils and who do not put themselves 'above' their pupils to the point where they take on an authoritarian role. I think that meditation is arguaby a practice (amongst others) that benefits from some kind of structure and ecouragement from a teacher or individuals. I have continued to meditate pretty much as I was originally shown and can report that even without associating it in one's mind with Maharaji -and even nursing some rejection of the notion of it being anything to do with him -it still works. There is however a dynamic I fully admit, whereby in the atmosphere of Satsang and when one invests trust in the teacher, one is clearly encouraged to practice more etc. I think that the degree to which one associates the experience exclusively with the adopted teacher (in our case Maharaji) is more to do with wishful thinking and a learned response than reality. In my experience it has been very enlightning and a relief to actually do less meditation and to reject the subtle pressure and sense of being bound to practicing that all the promises, vows and warnings produced. There are other things in life and I really think that as premies we generally became so obsessed with the 'high' feelings in meditation to the point where we often could not think straight. That we then became vulnerable to the influence of some a very questionable Guru system that has it's roots in a medieval society that ran largely on fear and inequality is something to learn from not to deny. Richard's '14 Objections' are a reasonable collection of issues which anyone with intelligence and integrity would agree need to be openly addressed. Otherwise Maharaji and his followers are always going to be dogged with skeletons in the cupboard that people with real integrity cannot simply and selfishly ignore. Premies often say of people who criticise Maharaji or who have reported some controversial thing they witnessed that put them off 'That's not my experience -so it doesn't matter' . To my mind this sort of attitude indicates a lack of empathy, sense of truthfulness and human responsibiliy to each other, that seems an unfortunate and yet common trait of premies. I think that it is telling that whilst premies have mainly put up websites that refute and deny the issues 'carte-blanche' without even daring to look into them, -it is former followers on the whole who feel compelled to rein in Maharaji's onward gallup saying 'Hang on a minute, before you go marching so confidently ahead telling anyone with a problem to get lost -we think that the next bunch of people who you woo into trusting you know that you HAVE a past and some responsibility's outstanding!' If these things degenerate into ugly battles and displays of hatred by premies and exes in equal measure, then I would say that this reflects Maharaji's contentment to remain uninvolved. I see his reluctance to comment with any and take resposibility as less of a 'Lotus-like' detachment, but more of a fearful reluctance to be seen as less-than-perfect- which the process of openly confronting his more prosaic past and his effect on others would undoubtedly reveal. I would like to discuss and talk about these things with you and others more. I'm afraid that I may not be able to post for a week or so after Wednesday but I'll look in when I can. I sincerely hope that this new forum can prove to be a postive development towards 'flame-free' communication. I would encourage all posters to not be anonymous since I have found it to be personally rewarding to be up-front and accountable. I have taken Knowledge and Maharaji most seriously all my life and now that I have identified that fear has long been a factor in the equation of the dynamic with Maharaji, I am seriously committed to putting my money where my mouth and kicking out fearful behaviour for good. [ Page Link ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:03:33 (EDT) From: David Andersen Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: To David Anderson Message:

Hey, Patrick --- -- An amazing post. I honor your honesty, and have a lot of respect for anyone who follows their own compass. Naturally, you and I disagree on a whole wide range of things, but I truly felt saddened when you were describing the pain and sense of loss you experienced. It's very late at night where I am, and don't want to disrespect you with a short post, or seem like I'm preaching, teaching, or moralizing, so that's really all I can say with any real juice --- that I'm touched by your honesty, and I'm hurt by the pain you express. If we were friends, and had a trusting, man-to-man relationship, I would say more to you --- -if you're open to some feedback from a fellow member of your sub-species (musos) I could contact you offline. I loved Maharaji, with a real and deep love, for 15 years before I knew him. I don't know why, rationally; I can't explain it causally, except to say that I've always had a passion for Knowledge, and I see it now as true independence --- an absolutely reliable means of access to joy, independent of my usual and favorite catalysts: nature, music, my kids, reading, laughter,pianos, friends, spliffage, anthropology, etc. etc. etc. Joy is joy. The joy that Knowledge brings is the same joy this other stuff brings, IMO. But K is independent, available 24/7/365, totally private, totally portable, not dependent on any idea or philosophy or set of beliefs --- --it's the fucking bomb, the real deal, to me. So I guess you could construe that as a reason to love and honor M --- he made it available to me. But I just loved him from the first time I saw him; knew he was for real, and knew he was my guy. I've questioned that thousands of times over the years; but the questions have never been stronger or more real than the ancient love I feel. Trippy and cornball, huh? Well, maybe, but that's the way it is for me --- and that does NOT prevent me from being a fully functioning human, a talented craftsman, an artist, an intellectual, all the things I am in the world of relationships. 'Blame is evil,' as my lovely daughter so wisely said to me several months ago --- and I'm finding out how true that is each day in my own life. I feel strong and powerful; I feel like a good man, and I feel like taking responsibility, ownership, of each and every choice I've ever made in my adult life. To me, blame is a sickness that has hurt me continually my entire adult life, and with some solid therapeutic work, I'm really coming out the other side of it. Feels great. Highly recommend it, when the hunger & commitment is there. Was I ever afraid of M? Yes, of course --- I projected a shiteload of fear onto him. Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No --- I sincerely can't think of anything. Now I guess I'm rambling, but I wanted to honor your taking the mask off with some of my own vulnerability --- -posting here feels like a risk, in a way: I've seen people get hatefully flamed and beaten up; the reason I began to post is that I felt something new, some real attempt across the Great Divide to be civil, to try and understand what are seemingly alien positions....we're all just flawed human beings, trying to make sense of life. To bed. Take care, Patrick....maybe more later about the repressed English persona....you whingeing tosser :--) xoDA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:40:00 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: David Andersen Subject: I think that's kind of dangerous Message:

David, thanks for the response, all I can say is that after I rejected knowledge and Maharaji, I didn't feel any change. My level of happiness, I think, is pretty good. I guess I have a question for you though: Knowledge makes you happy, but compared to what? Are you saying you are happier than you were before you received knowledge? What makes you say that? Were you miserable before? And I guess you can't really compare until you get out from under it. I mean, as long as you believe it really gives you 'the juice' or that 'the juice' you get, from wherever it comes is due to 'knowledge', then I don't think you will really know. All I can say is that I discovered there is all kinds of happiness, and the essence, the experience of 'life' in all it's wonder, really has nothing to do with some meditation practice, or belief in a master. M --- he made it available to me. But I just loved him from the first time I saw him; knew he was for real, and knew he was my guy. I've questioned that thousands of times over the years; but the questions have never been stronger or more real than the ancient love I feel. Well, to each his own, as they say. I can't relate, but I guess there's somebody for everybody, as they say, and no accounting for love or taste. I never felt that, which makes me wonder about Maharaji's so-called universal appeal. Maybe you just like the guy, maybe a whole lot, and that might color a lot of things. It's like that Rogers and Hammerstein song from Cinderella that asks: 'do I love you because you're beautiful, or are you beautiful because I ove you?' Maybe that's a little bit relevant, and perhaps you aren't the most objective when it comes to Maharaji, and maybe you don't want to be. I do. I need to be. I have to be. I couldn't live any other way. To me, blame is a sickness that has hurt me continually my entire adult life, and with some solid therapeutic work, I'm really coming out the other side of it. Feels great. Highly recommend it, when the hunger & commitment is there. I think there is a big difference between 'blame' in the sense that you are usurping responsibility and projecting it on others, and understanding WHO is really responsible for what happened. One of the downsides from your 'no blame' philosophy is a kind of fuzzy new-age extreme conservatism, that whatever happens is what is supposed to happen, or some kind of EST-nonsense that the individual is 'responsible' for all that happens to them. I find that very dangerous and irresponsbile. I think it leads to the sickness of 'blaming' one's self, and perhaps never really developing the boundaries between my own responsibility and those of others. Plus, it can really make you a victim, and that's really damaging to the self-esteem. Was I ever afraid of M? Yes, of course --- I projected a shiteload of fear onto him. Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No --- I sincerely can't think of anything. Well, here you are implying that it was all 'projection' and perhaps you will tell us next that Maharaji is just a mirror. Yeah, right. Maharaji exuded fear quite often, and I recall numerous times when he told us we were worthless pieces of dust, that we didn't even have the right to look at him, that terrible things would happen to us if we ever left him or the practice of knowledge, etc. Yes, there was lots of fear. I found premies to be some of the most fearful people I have ever known. They were afraid to utter even one negative thing about Maharaji. Try it David. Anything you don't like about Mahararji? Anything you think he has really screwed up? Come on, tell us. Was I ever afraid of M? Yes, of course --- I projected a shiteload of fear onto him. Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No --- I sincerely can't think of anything.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 05:24:04 (EDT) From: David Andersen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: I think that's kind of dangerous Message:

Joe --- your anger is tiresome. I have said freely and openly I don't know, haven't a clue, how life works, whether things are fated to happen, chaos theory, grand plan, blind chance(which I personally doubt); but I don't KNOW. If you think you know how it works, God bless ya. A woman recently said to me, 'the trick is to let go of the blame you have for other people, and not beat yourself up.' Exactly. I don't understand you, I guess. How do you take responsibility, and at the same time be a victim? I have an active distaste for the New Age, btw. IMHO, almost everything in life is a choice, inside and out. My self-esteem is just fine, ego intact, and I am not a victim, by any stretch of the imagination. I wonder if you see just how disrespectful you get --- an edge of put-down, a casual insult; do you think that people can't see that, and don't suss that your anger colors a lot of your expression? I don't like it --- it's not an honorable thing. I absolutely honor your right to live and perceive life as you see fit; by your own words you seem to be happy and well-adjusted; why do you feel you have to put me down, basically dismiss my deepest experiences? That feels off --- out of sync with your assertions. --you wrote: All I can say is that I discovered there is all kinds of happiness, and the essence, the experience of 'life' in all it's wonder........ That's good. If that's really what you experience that's great for you. If you're fulfilled, that's beautiful. Sincerely. Please respect me seeking my own fulfillment my own way --- -or don't. Your choice. I'll be a lot more inclined to dialogue with you if you do. OK--be good......DA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 19:58:31 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: David Andersen Subject: Re: To David Anderson Message:

Dear David, Hearfelt post from your own point of view, David. I don't care whether or not I agree with you, because of course I don't. But I'm certainly not going to flame you. I have said before, not sure whether you saw it on FV, that this is an unusual situation. We have an ex-premie Forum here for people to let their hair down, deconstruct, discuss. Then premies lurk, and where the ex-premies feel free to express themselves, if it is extreme, the premie lurkers just feel compelled to jump into the fray. Often when premies start posting, they are very angry. Your sister was a notable exception. But this place was not created for committed premies, but they are free to be here, of course, and participate. So we end up with this odd situation where I would never say the kinds of things I say on this Forum to premie friends or family, because they would NOT want to hear it. Socially we avoid getting into a head-to-head confrontation on views that will necessarily be opposing, although we may discuss it a little. It is definitely not an 'us' and 'them' thing. But here, where the topic is what it is, confrontations happen that may not happen elsewhere. And tempers flare, and words flame. Sometimes the sensitive exes are really traumatized and stop posting here. And some of the premies feel like their views are not appreciated, but that's what Lifes Great is for. One thing though, I've got a memory like a steel trap, at times. You said: 'Blame is evil,' as my lovely daughter so wisely said to me several months ago --- and I'm finding out how true that is each day in my own life. That reminds me of someone else who used to post here. But if I'm right I don't want to out you former nom de forum here. If you want to e-mail me and see if I'm right, go right ahead. If you'd rather not, and you did post here under another name, boy, your voice has sure changed to someone I remember from what I was hearing. But like I say, premies have a fit when they see us saying what we are usually too polite to say around premies, so I'm not surprised at some of the reactions. Praise b something. Love, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 13:30:11 (EDT) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Francesca :C) Subject: Francesca maybe a BEST OF FORUM Message:

You just said something to David that explains one of the big reasons that I have decided to limit my participation in the forum. More premies are coming here. In real life I am a live and let live kind of guy and would not dream of confronting premies or arguing with them. I have no right to attempt to convince someone else that I am right and they are wrong. Unfortunately as you say, this forum is for expremies who really can no longer stomach hearing the praises of rawat sung- no matter how kind and courteous the premie is. We react to singing his praises in much the same way premies react to us criticising him. It rubs us the wrong way. The expremie forum is not a level playing field anymore than Lifes Great is. The game on either side is rigged. I no longer post on LG for that reason. Why would I want to go into someone's house and criticise their furniture? Why would a premie want to come here?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 10:49:56 (EDT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: David Andersen Subject: Re: To David Anderson Message:

Hi David, thanks so much for your reply -unfortunately I have to rush off so I can't reply at length. Sure it'd be good to meet and chat someday. You sound like a nice guy -my pal Tim Hain spoke highly of you too! I will reappear here in about a fortnight I guess -maybe then we can also chat offline. If you want to email me you can do so at patrick@patrickwilson.com (my website is www.patrickwilson.com and you can check it out if you like!). I hear your sincerity and friendliness and it warms me. Your daughter's comment I feel is a little naive if I may say so -I'm sure she has a sweet understanding of what she says though. I also have a lovely daughter and I know she says some great things too (although she's only 5). I think that the issue here is more of holding Maharaji partly responsible for things that have happened to one as a premie. It's very 'new-agey' to say that blame is evil but it is a word that has a valid and useful meaning. People simply can indeed be 'imputed with faults' and Maharaji is surely no exception. In itself there is no harm implicit in blaming someone or even oneself. I agree that we should all like you say 'feel like taking responsibility, ownership, of each and every choice I've ever made in my adult life' . and again I say that I wonder whether Maharaji is doing this over some issues - I also feel that I accept my past choices- for example the choice to obey his 'Agya'. There were some additional factors though that were influential. There are occasions, I might point out, when it is actually sick NOT to blame someone when blame is due. The knack I guess is to point out peoples faults in such a way that is helpful and kind - so that they can learn and not react defensively. As a matter of fact, Maharaji has blamed premies on many occasions for ballsing hings up. Don't forget that. You add : 'I projected a shiteload of fear onto him.'and then 'Has he ever done anything to me, or to anyone else I really know well, to warrant that fear? No --- I sincerely can't think of anything. ' Well, I can think of some things and I am rather astonished that you can't - to be honest. Much of what he said would be construed by anyone with intelligence to have a somewhat intimidating tinge. Why blame yourself wholly and be reluctant to let Maharaji take some of the blame -`I mean it sounds like YOU are blaming yourself here soley for projecting fear- don't be so hard on yourself! Blame him just a little - he can take it! Give yourself a break! You were not a stupid creature who since birth projects fear left, right and center without some reason. Even Maharaji confessed that his father was an intimidating character. Believe me, he said some scary heavy duty stuff. Theres no harm in understanding that . Also, you say you love Maharaji - well, I don't know about you but I tell those I love exactly how I feel if I think they are wrong or to blame for something stupid. I sometimes get the impression that premies think that loving Maharaji has a different dynamic all on it's own. The Master is deemed to be totally beyond criticism by virtue of how much 'Lerve' there is flowing between you. I think that is most unhealthy. That sounds less like real respect and more like obsequiousness. Thanks for the reply Dave yours The Whinging Tosser!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 06:16:23 (EDT) From: David AndersEn with an E Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: To David Anderson Message:

No problem.....re the reply; and back at ya re the sincerity. Some quick points: --- -My daughter is a powerful, beautiful adult who has faced many incredible challenges and crises in her life. This is not Pollyana bullshit; this is a wise, courageous woman speaking her own hard-won truth. The word 'evil' may be confronting, or even misleading to you, but it resonates with me; I've experienced blame as a powerful destructive force --- destroying families, parent-child relationships, business relationships, all kinds of student-teacher and mentor situations --- and most of all, destroying one's own joi de vivre. --- -Do you tell your mother exactly how you feel about everything? Do you tell your significant other every time they piss you off, or you think the'yre wrong? I don't. I accept the fact that I have unique and different relationships with every person I love; there's no template that fits all; that said, one has to express himself honestly, with context and respect. I've noticed that Maharaji applauds people being secure enough to be honest with him, and seems to reward honesty with respect. If I'm serving a client of mine in my piano business, and they're trusting me to advise them on a $30-40-50-60K decision, paying $20K and up for a thrashed Steinway, and then paying me another 20 to 30 to completely restore it, I have a professional and ethical responsibility to tell that client ALL the news, good AND bad, about that piano before he pulls the trigger. If I lie to him, my reputation among the real players goes to shit, and I'm a weasel, or at least have ethical weaknesses. Why should serving Maharaji be any different? It shouldn't, and it isn't, for me. Ask Tim if he would ever describe me as obsequious. I've been subtly blasted by church ladies for the opposite, but not in a while, I'm thrilled to say. Let's say Maharaji's doctor was a PWK. You think Mr. Rawat would want that guy to be anything but absolutely, bluntly truthful with him? Would it be serving him, or anyone else, to do differently? Bottom line is this. I love the guy. He is, in my perception, a good, sweet, intelligent, incredibly perceptive man who treats people with incredible kindness. This is what I've seen, and this is what I know. I've seen him in all kinds of situations,and always he's treated people with basic civility and respect. He's a human being. He's not perfect in the world of relationships, IMO. Am I, or any human I know? No. To me it's simple common sense,based on my own data, my own experience. To you, it may seem like I'm nuts,or totally at odds with what you've been led to believe --- -but I personally feel at least as credible as Mike Dettmers... :--) Posting on this thing sucks time out of your life like a young and eager courtesan.....bye bye. Take good care....have fun....lighten up; lie under a fine piano while a great player does their thing; it does wonders for ALL the organs.....DA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:26:01 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: David AndersEn with an E Subject: Re: To David Anderson Message:

Posting on this thing sucks time out of your life like a young and eager courtesan So now we have eager courtesans (prostitutes.) Charming. I'll bet most young women, some of them mere children, are really eager to be forced into degradation and disease. God, you premies are really shining, such mirrors of the master.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 12:22:31 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: David AndersEn with an E Subject: Credibility and pianos Message:

Have to disagree that you can assert you are as credible as Michael Dettmers. You have had nowhere near the exposure to M as Dettmers did, although your more distant relations with M may be more current. Your denial of seeing any fault with M will lead to no meaningful dialogue on the topic, at least with us, and shoots down your credibility in the face of all the known facts. I do appreciate your heartfelt honesty however, and your comment about pianos. There is just nothing like an acoustic piano. The vibrations go up into space and down into the earth. love, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 22:23:54 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Re: Credibility and pianos Message:

I agree with the following comment: Have to disagree that you can assert you are as credible as Michael Dettmers. You have had nowhere near the exposure to M as Dettmers did, although your more distant relations with M may be more current. I like David and his honesty but this is also the big difference between Dettmers, Donner & other PAMs. The MD's are talking about an inner circle. Also, DA cannot witness something that has already happened. I don't know why he contests that point. I think his characterization of M's human side is very credible. It made me feel good to hear he has that redeeming side. But M has different relationships with different people. After all, he's human. One thing has nothing to do with the other. M's buddy side has nothing to do with his pretend Master side, nor does it have anything to do with his bastard to other premies side, past, present, or future. Prempal is lying about the exes, how admirable is that?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 20:05:21 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Brilliant, Patrick [nt] Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 05:02:22 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: David Andersen Subject: ''Blame is evil' ?? Message:

Interesting. We all really know that Maharaji once claimed to be 'Divine','the living avatar', 'God in human form '. In a court of law or even in a court of dispassionate, reasonable minded investigation he wouldn't have a leg to stand on if he denied it. He does deny it to premies and the rest of us. Why? There are countless written and taped satsangs veryifying this. Not just him alluding to it or vaguely suggesting it but actually stating it as fact. Now that isn't honest is it? I've noticed premies online (and every time I speak about the subject offline to premies, it's always their first (and sometimes ONLY)response.'Come of it he's just a human being ' I couldn't agree more. He's only human. Unfortunately he doesn't really agree ! One thing that REALLY REALLY PUZZLES ME is this:- Premies are ALWAYS willing to lavish praise on Maharaji but resent ANY (I mean ANY, not just some) criticism of him. For a premie (I dare you to deny this) a mother , father, relative, friend, politician, circumstance, 'culture & society',media, upbringing, ....and on and on and on.....ANYONE or ANYTHING is fair game for criticism or blame. But not him? Doesn't that strike you as being very very very odd? Very strange? He himself glories in praise. He lives on it. He needs it. Thrives on it.Let's face it he pretty much demands it ! But blame? no way jose! This is pretty weird for 'only a human being ' don't you think? I mean you'd think he and his premies think he's PERFECT or something? Now me, Dermot Mullan...I'm just a human being. I have countless faults, nmade countless mistakes,I'm really imperfect to the Nth degree, I've even repeated the same mistakes over and over again. My imperfection is boundless:) .....I can say one or two tiny things in my favour.If and whenever I really hurt someone I deeply regretted it and tried to make amends. I've never ever messed with peoples minds and hearts on a grand, global scale. I've never claimed to be the PERFECT master (perhaps because I wasn't born into an Indian family 'religion cum business' ). Prem pal singh Rawat has made this claim . The fact that he has devoted, loving followers is (in terms of honesty and truth) wholly irrelevant. Inevitably he'll attract a following given his start in life !! That ultimately means nothing even though it may be pleasant for you to experience the love and friendship you have with him. Either his basic claim to authenticity is true or it's false. I think all the evidence when looked at impartially proves it. As I said below ' JUST WALK ' is not a sincere response. It's an insult. It's a deriliction of DUTY. This was my last parting shot (truly, really, DEFINITELY :) ) However, the vast majority of the other exes here will basically tell the same story (from their own peculiar, individual perspective) and make the same FUNDAMENTAL ACCUSATION. In my opinion it has nothing to do with hate ( what a feeble response Maharajis yes men/women make when citing that !)He is a public figure. It isn't reasonable or correct for a public figure to lap up praise but resent critcism. He deserves to be blamed (not just for superficial or practical things) for his fundamental, dishonest errors. He deserves to be continually blamed because he just will not sincerely confront his critics ( prefers spin of official EV and the satellite 'independent' sites. Blame is evil ????? Get real mate. He deserves the blame....and he's only human, right? Cheers Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 11:39:59 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Dermot Subject: Great posts, Patrick and Dermot, thanks (nt) Message:

[nt]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:55:58 (EDT) From: wolfie Email: None To: David Andersen Subject: real and deep love before I knew him Message:

Hi David, maybe it is a languageproblem, but how can it be, that you loved Maharaji with with a real and deep love for 15 years before you knew him?? Sorry, what you say reminds me to this kind of praises I can find sunday mornings on TV, where succesful people are talking of their deep love to Lord Jesus ( for example:The hour of Power) Why I get a strange taste, when I hear this gloryfing stuff. It's not love, no it has to be real and deep love and of course a proof always seems to be, how succesful someone is in the world. The love you got is reflected in wordly succes, specially in money??? ciao .....wolfie......just thinking.....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:06:04 (EDT) From: Amsterdam Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: To Patrcik Message:

Hi Patrick I feel sorry for you. It is sad that you did not enjoy any of your stay in the ashram. Actually it was a system that M closed almost 20 years ago. I think that should tell something. In your post I counted that at least you mentioned or described 'surrender' / or giving up career, family etc. (BTW where I stayed everyone kept their ties to their families intact). The number of times you mention this, makes you sound like a bitter person. M. says he is a human being. The nature of human beings is to make mistakes. To love another human being requires that a person is able to look beyond the mistakes, and see what is good in another person. Anyway, I can understand your feelings, even though I don't share your experiences. Good luck to you and take care. Life is too short to spend time sulking.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 04:07:01 (EDT) From: Steve Email: None To: Amsterdam Subject: Re: To Amsterbjorn Message:

Were you ever in the private ashram meetings with Maha ? I think not. So what the fuck do you know ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:27:53 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Amsterdam Subject: On 'Sulking' Message:

You know Amsterdam, your condescending comments about 'sulking' might put you in the category of being very judgmental, and perhaps lacking much empathy for fellow human beings. I also think you might be pretty much ill-informed about your own cult. This is a common trait of premies. I'm not surprised, though, given the secrecy that exists and has always existed in the Maharaji cult. To be precise, I believe Maharaji closed the ashrams 17 years ago, which, tells us, I'm not sure what. From what people like Michael Dettmers have told us, he closed them because he didn't think the premies who lived their appreciated them enough, and he was concerned about money, because the ashram premies were getting older and most didn't have medical isnurance, pensions and the like. The WAY he closed them was pretty reprehensible. Maharaji had indoctrinated into us that the ashram was a life-long committment, that it was a supreme opportunity and one should never leave. I have him on tape saying this by the way, and I heard him say it numerous times. The problem was, it wasn't a committment that Maharaji felt he had any obligation to uphold. When they were no longer the cash cow they had them, Maharaji just dumped the ashrams and even stuck the ashram premies with the debts. In the meantime, people trashed their lives for a decade or more trying to serve the living Lord of the Universe, foregoing careers, relationships, or any ability to personally direct their own lives. As for keeping ties with families intact, that was pretty hard to do, and one actually felt guilty for even trying to do that as Maharaji denigrated family relationships repeatedly, as he did any form of human relationship. I was never uncivil or even un-loving to my family, but I hurt them greatly for putting the Lord of the Universe ahead of them, for missing out on many, many family events where I would have been were it not for the ashram, etc. I was not even allowed to attend my grandfather's funeral, causing even more hurt to my family. Many people believe 'getting beyond' injustices has to do with trying to right them, perhaps to uncover the reality of what happened, even damand those who prepetrated the autrocities, in this case Maharaji, are required to admit their errors, and take responsbility for them, something you want Patrick to do, but you make no such demands on Mr. Rawat. That's pretty hypcritical.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 18:53:18 (EDT) From: Amsterdam Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: On 'Sulking' Message:

Hi Joe In my post, I tried to express my empaty. If I failed, I failed. I stayed in the ashrams for 3 years. I consider this periode in my life a 'lesson in life'. I came with nothing and even though I left poor, I did not leave empthyhanded. In hindsight I might have ended up like a junkie. I have become quite successful. To day, I am richer than my neighbours, and more wealthy than most of my friends. I suppose I lived in another 'ashram' culture. I spent most holidays with my family. Why M closed the ashrams is speculations. I think what he did was brave. Doing that he admitted a mistake. Not that ashram life might benefit those who sincerely wanted to live there, but I think people like Patrick never should have moved into the ashram. When M closed the ashrams I think he gave a signal that ashram life is not for everyone and that is perfectly OK to live a normal life. That is my opinion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:09:14 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Amsterdam Subject: Your alias is anagram of 'Mad Master'! - Cool... Message:

Hi Amsterdam, You write: Why M closed the ashrams is speculations. I think what he did was brave. Doing that he admitted a mistake. Bravery, my ass. It was because the ashrams were becoming a financial liability, not to mention the image problem of cults after Jonestown. Plenty of evidence to suggest as much if you scour the archives and read the main site in more detail. And Maharaji has never publically admitted a mistake. He has, of course, changed direction on a number of occasions, and he has frequently admitted the mistakes of OTHERS... I think you should read Dermot's post in Patrick Wilson's thread. he raises a very interesting question about criticism and blame. But I am so glad you have been more successful than your neighbours. I always noticed the people reporting the best K experiences were often coincidentally blessed with a bit more in the way of material comforts. Such is the Grace, I guess... BTW: are you going to stick with one alias from now on, Bjorn? If you hadn't noticed, there are posters here genuinely freaked by your creepy posts of the past - and I think it is fair they should know who they are talking to, so they can make a point of not talking to you... I assume you ARE Bjorn (anyone else would have denied the suggestion by now).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jul 16, 2001 at 19:18:27 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Amsterdam Subject: Oh come on, be fair Message:

A couple of comments: I stayed in the ashrams for 3 years. I consider this periode in my life a 'lesson in life'. I came with nothing and even though I left poor, I did not leave empthyhanded. Well I sure did. What did you take with you, exactly? A severence package? In hindsight I might have ended up like a junkie. I have become quite successful. To day, I am richer than my neighbours, and more wealthy than most of my friends. You could say the same thing about prison. You might have been hit by a bus, too, what exactly is your point, because it doesn't make any sense? There were lots of people, like Patrick and like me, who gave up their lives to be ashram premies because they believed what Maharaji said and who he was. I feel I wasted my 20s doing that, only to see Maharaji dump the ashrams without explanations. It's not that I wanted the ashrams to continue, I wanted Maharaji to act like a responsible adult and admit his errors and apologize, perhaps even offer support and help for the ashram residents and initiators that needed it. Instead he did nothing because he didn't care, and apparently still doesn't. To my value system, and my understanding of right and wrong, there's a pretty clear violation by Maharaji of regular human decency that pretty much disqualifies him in my book as somebody I would take seriously as a 'master,' someone I would 'love' or respect in pretty much any sense. The bottom line is that Maharaji caused me and others a lot of damage. Sure I'm complicit in that because I was stupid enough to believe what he said, but at least I am human enough to admit it. Maharaji apparently isn't. I have never heard Maharaji admit that the ashrams were HIS mistake. My understanding is that he blamed the premies, according to Michael Dettmers and others who were once 'x-rated' but no longer feel obliged to follow that pledge. I suppose I lived in another 'ashram' culture. I spent most holidays with my family. I guess so. I think that was pretty rare. I think people like Patrick never should have moved into the ashram. When M closed the ashrams I think he gave a signal that ashram life is not for everyone and that is perfectly OK to live a normal life. That is my opinion. Yeah, I get that. Telling Patrick he never should have moved into the ashram is a bit obvious don't you think? Of course he never should have. None of us should have. But I think Patrick was pretty clear why he did. It was what Maharaji said, repeatedly, about surrenduring your life. Again, we had the misfortune of believing what Maharaji said, before the point at which he decided not to say it anymore, and pretend like he never did say it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 07:28:40 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Joe Subject: It sure was a different ashram culture Message:

I was thrown out of the ashram because I stayed at my mother's(whi I had not seen for 3 years) for one night when she was ill. I was lierally thrown out onto the street with NOthing. 10 years of writing to m yielded no response. It was on maharaji's direction. If you don't believe me ask Dick Cooper who I think is probably in Oz probably hanging out with his side-kick Beth Burrel. Jethro(formely Eddie Fisher)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 14:23:14 (EDT) From: daisy Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: It sure was a different ashram culture Message:

My understanding, in my ashram in the US, was that being in the ashram included cutting all ties to the 'outside world.' This included family. For much of my time in the ashram I lived within 45 minutes of my parents and siblings. I rarely saw them, and certainly never on holidays. My father phoned me at the ashram once, and was given the third-degree by whomever answered before he could talk to me--I don't remember what questions he was asked before I spoke with him. For better or for worse, cutting ties with one's family was part of what it took to become a surrendered, 'free' person capable of soaring to the heights of selfless service. 'He who is without preference can have devotion.' I believe that was a quote of Shri Maharaji. I think we knew that ahead of time, before moving in. Perhaps it was in the ashram manual that we (at least I) was asked to read on the day I moved in.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 15:52:55 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: daisy Subject: Re: It sure was a different ashram culture Message:

I left the ashram (the second time) because I wasn't allowed to visit my brother (a premie) who had developed mental illness and was in hospital. John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 16:29:34 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: JHB Subject: Ashram Abuse Message:

Wow, that's heavy. At least you had the good sense to leave. I was not allowed to go to my grandfather's funeral because the ashram didn't have funds for a plane ticket, and because it was just 'mind' and I had to understand who my 'real family' was. In 1979, in Miami, Maharaji came and gave satsang at DECA, the premie/ashram slave labor camp that was refurbishing a Boeing 707 for Maharaji, as well as other particular luxuries he (and also Raja Ji and Claudia) wanted. He told us how 'pleased' he was that we were there, and that we understood who our 'real family' was. He also said that 'the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for Christmas.' Perhaps Amsterdam ignored these ignorant and abusive comments by Maharaji, and perhaps he or she had a liberal ashram housefather, but I think that was probably exceptional. Most people in the ashram wanted to do what Maharaji said, and he said, repeatedly that your biological family was just as irrelevent and distracting as relationships. And, at the risk of being repetitive, Maharaji has never come clean on any of that, publicly, as he should, and like Gregg said, since he is a dishonest liar, he is off the radar screen of most people with any kind of values insofar as a spiritual teacher is concerned.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 21:08:35 (EDT) From: deborah Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Remember the Deprogramming Message:

I received Knowledge in 1980, when M was in transission from his Mala-cross dressing phase to the gucchishoes/Armani-suit yuppie look. Days after I rec'd K, I witnessed one of last (if not THE last) Krishna gigs in Kansas City Missouri (the show-me satsang theme). Premies were telling me how M was changing his look so he could propagate and how I was the new type. They told some campbell soup version of Mischler and warned we not take any gossip seriously. They also told me about deprogramming. Then I met people who were refugees from the evil clutches of their parent's attempt to have them deprogrammed. I bought it! M had a group who was in control of preventing deprogramming at the time. I met MiraBei who was one of these people. She came from a very good and literate family who knew better. Well their efforts failed and one day she committed suicide asking M took re-incarnate her in the next life. I'll never forget reading about that story in one of the posts when I first started to read the forum. Before I rec'd K, I worked for premies on Lincoln road in Miami Beach. I met tons of premies because the airline ticket business was just down the street. Think I remember names like Adler, Malone, ... I worked for a premie, company was called 'Elan Air'. I would tease the premies about the guru all the time but they just smiled so knowingly. So I came to M through the influence of many old-timers. My boss John Orzano lived in an ashram, the BroadMoor Hotel and he would tell me all kind of stories all the time. I've been thinking a lot about the deprogramming that M's squash-team conducted and feeling pissed off how arrogant the 'just walk philosophy'. Why would premies need to deprogrammed? Why would there even be such a concept if it was never a cult? It's so sad the pain Maha BigHead put people's family through. It ruined non-gullible people's life as well. How many families and friends do you think suffered for M's arrogant Lord of the Universe adolescent prank? Any one else remember deprogramming stories?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jul 17, 2001 at 17:14:11 (EDT) From: Daisy Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Ashram Abuse Message:

Each of us had a different experience, both of Knowledge and of living in the ashrams, since each of us came with our own particular background, psychological makeup, strengths, and weaknesses. I don't think we have to decide 'Ashrams were good' or 'Ashrams were bad.' Amsterdam had a great experience and he seems to have listened well and stuck to what was best for him. There are others who likewise seemed to keep their head above water. Others of us, or I guess I will speak for myself, swallowed the whole belief system, did not give any credence to my own inner stirrings, thinking they were just murmurings of my dying ego, which I would be much better off without. Regardless of whose 'fault' this was, I now want to deal with the aftermath. I am grieving for the