Joe -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:08:57 (GMT)

__ Elaine -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:56:21 (GMT)

__ Mr. Williams -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:14:40 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Have you noticed that YOU are on OUR site? -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:30:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Mr. Williams - Go back and read it AGAIN! sheesh -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat -:- Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:39:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:19:31 (GMT)

__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Interesting that you use a list of what M/EV isn't -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:19:17 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:04:24 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- hit and run artist, this is not true -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:35:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- hit and run artist, this is not true -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:13:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just more hit and run eh? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:53:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Just more hit and run eh? -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:18:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Charles Sprague -:- EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:33:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Yes, astute observation... -:- Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:50:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah, Fran? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:05:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Doesn't reason about M and K -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Oh yeah, Fran? Is Mr Williams weaseling out? -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:30:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- learning from a 'living' teacher -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:27:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mr. Anderson -:- Very funny, Roger -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:46:20 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:00:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Oops, Joe, I forgot about the modern trappings -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:28:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't beat yourself up Pat, you've actually ... -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:47:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The Inner Cult vs External Trappings -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- The Inner Cult vs External Trappings -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:38:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- 'Never doubt the purity of the Master. Never.' -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:02:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- The Inner Cult vs External Trappings -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:55:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You tell 'em Joe! Another Good One! n/t -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:41:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Excellent post JOE :o)))))))))))))))))))))) n/t -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:39:32 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact.. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:38:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Willams -:- Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact.. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:50:50 (GMT)

__ __ Jethro -:- You forgot on your promoted list ,the -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:15:09 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:45:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:47:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a funny thing to say! -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:55:27 (GMT)

__ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Mr Williams is correct in saying -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:54:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Mr Williams is correct in saying -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ The Questioning Angel -:- Mr Williams is correct in saying -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Mr Williams and Angel, two very interesting posts -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 08:13:20 (GMT)

__ Mercedes -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:05:45 (GMT)

__ salam -:- great stuff -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 00:02:29 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- bravo bravo Joe, fantastic 9 (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:15:39 (GMT)

__ Mark -:- Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:13:52 (GMT)

__ Way -:- A clear and valid analysis -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:07:15 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- ** The Most Outstanding Post Ever on this Forum ** -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:34:42 (GMT)

__ __ Tim G -:- ** The Most Outstanding Post Ever on this Forum ** -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 22:50:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- FA-doesn't this deserve a place on homepage?nt -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 02:37:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Clarification -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 04:51:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Life in Latvia (again off topic) -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 23:05:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Life in Latvia (again off topic) I fancy buying a -:- Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 01:23:35 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:08:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

A woman who does counseling for ex-cult members, Jan Groenwald, and who has worked a lot with Dr. Margaret Singer, has come up with a 'universal definition' of a cult, and a list of cult characteristics. I picked 14 of them, that I think apply to the Maharaji cult quite clearly. What do you think? Perhaps Ms. Winter over on the It Ain't So site should address these. Note that they do not include Jonestown or Heaven's Gate-style weirdness, although they are weird. A cult does not have to imprison people or hound them daily for compliance to be a cult. No, a cult is really quite other than that. It really has to do with changing your thought processes, in changing the way you process information. What do you think, premies? Basic Definition: CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. The Maharaji cult fits this 'universal' definition, obvously. Cult Characteristics: 1. Their leader may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God. Yes, obviously. In Maharaji's case he has stressed that there is only ONE Perfect Master, and that he was 'chosen' by his father, the previous one, to be PM. Sat Pal, does, however, disagree. 2. They believe they are the only true church/having the one true belief/experience/access to the ultimate. Yes, although in the Premies' case, it's the one, true 'experience.' 3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process. In the past, Maharaji said that tons of vegetables would rot inside you, or you would smash into a thousand pieces. I think now it's more subtle, but the basic fear is that life will be meaningless and miserable is the premie left M and K. I think the social, peer pressure, is also still there. AND Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group. Same as above, and another major reason people don't leave. 4. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: 'weak,' 'undisciplined,' 'unspiritual,' 'worldly'; 'brainwashed by family, counselors'; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll. We have all heard variations of this from premies. When will I get the sex and rock & roll? AND Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family. Ditto. 5. Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as 'persecution'. Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the 'true Christian' or 'enlightened' one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are 'the only ones who are right'. Can you say 'Pia Grunbaum' and the fatuous crowd over at 'It Ain't So?' It is truly amazing that premies or Maharaji would claim persecution, to the point of going on a crusade about it, but we have heard it enough that they meet this characteristic of a cult in spades. 6. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate With rare exceptions, absolutely yes. The very hardest thing for a premie to do is to criticize Maharaji, and if they do, they are probably on their way out or the cult. 7. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing; signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their 'ministry'. I think this was much more blatant in the past in the Maharaji cult than it is now. It certainly was the case when I was a premie, including tithing, turning over assets, and selling flowers on the streets. But it seems to be more subtle now, although the pressure to donate is definitely still there, including Maharaji saying that 'participation' enhances your 'experience.' I understand that people like Yoram Weiss have made a carrer out of harrassing and guilt-tripping premies into donating to Maharaji, personally. AND Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings or the leader are discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained. Obviously very true, and always has been. Again, it is almost impossible to get a PWK to criticize Maharaji in the slightest, so programmed and fearful they are. I believe this is the basic essence of a cult, and the one, true test. Just ask a premie to criticize Maharaji and see what happens. 9. members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of propagating, performing certain humiliating rituals, going long distances for cult meetings, et.' Going long distances with no money was always a test to get to festivals and seen that way, and I think it still is, and so was propagating (bringing in 'new people'). Is darshan a humiliating ritual? I sure think so. 10. Information is not freely accessible No kidding. information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid Always true, and still is. Leadership decides who 'needs to know' what Sound familiar all you Elan Vital people? 11. Cults make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s. This is basically the essence of the Maharaji cult. It's a cult of attribution. All good is due to M, all bad is due to YOURSELF. Since M and K are beyond question, it must be the premie himself or herself, although it does appear there is a group within the cult thatis willing to criticize the 'organization,' keeping the ridiculous illusion that Maharaji isn't in complete charge. 12. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda such as Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc. You betcha, not to mention Satellite Feeds, trinkets and wrist watches with cult sayings on them. 13. Adopt 'loaded' language (characterized by 'thought-terminating clichés'). Words are the tools we use to think with. These 'special' words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous 'buzz words'. This is so fucking true of the Maharaji cult, it's amazing. Note how 'loaded' these words are in the Maharaji cult: mind, heart, knowledge, master, that love, that peace, that experience, that gift, thirst, fulfillment, and many more too numerous to mention. They all become loaded words that lose their ordinary meaning, and Maharaji and the premies speak them to each other with a nod and wink they only THEY understand what the hell they mean. Total garbage. 14. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down 'reality testing' by stopping 'negative' thoughts and allowing only 'good' thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. When Maharaji commanded us to meditate 24 hours a day, this was delinitely true, but I think this still exists, either as the 'holy name' technique, or just repression. Hey, guess what? It's a cult.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 22:56:21 (GMT) From: Elaine Email: None To: Joe Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

Hi Joe, Over the course of time I think your posts are very productive and seem without intense emotion. Thus, when I check in every few months or weeks now - I read yours over others. We knew each other at COLL and I liked and still respect you. :) I can not call myself a premie any longer and things that you have posted have influenced me. I am dealing in a helpful way with two friends who bring up M's name alot and are very confused. I pointed that out to one girl and she said when you've loved someone for over 25 years it's hard. And I said yes it was. Thank you for your informative posts. The emotional,'full of hatred and daggers ' posts were never helpful. Thanx, Elaine

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 06:14:40 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: Joe Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

To all you EPO cult members......you guys are hilarious: giving hours and hours of your daily lives to promoting blame & hatred, egging each other on in your absolutely entrenched positions of negativity; I guess there really is no such animal as personal responsibility; why can't you cop to the simple fact that Knowledge and Maharaji are not for you, you think they suck, and good riddance, bid it adieu? Your allegations are based on total hearsay and the dim remembrances of 5, 10, or 20 years ago. Humans are nuts; humans make mistakes; we're all human; give it a fucking rest. As my daughter so wisely said, 'blame is evil...' It just diverts your attention from the real source of pain, which is internal. 'We have met the enemy, and he is us,' in the deathless words of Pogo. You're never, ever going to convince me that Knowledge or Maharaji are bogus, and I'm never going to convince you that they're not. So. On with the show, you cultic geeks. Enjoy. In the early 70s, when I received Knowledge, lots of people asked me whether I had joined a cult. I didn’t think so at the time. Now, almost thirty years later, I can acknowledge the cultishness of some of our behaviors back then. Fortunately for me and many others, Maharaji wasn’t interested in having a cult. Indeed, from what I can tell, Maharaji has done a lot over the years to dismantle the framework of silly behaviors and misguided concepts that surrounded him in the early years. Most of that junk has fallen away, a footnote to our collective history – much like bellbottoms or the phrase “far out.” Ah, but there are still those who wonder, “Is it a cult?” To them, I respectfully submit the following, something an English friend and fellow student of Maharaji emailed to me just a few months ago. He calls it “101 Reasons We’re Not A Cult.” It’s meant to be funny and irreverent, rather than an official or exhaustive list -- and it also happens to be an accurate commentary on Maharaji’s message. Promoted… Daily practice of four techniques Enjoyment of life Freedom of choice Listening to teachings of living teacher Personal inner experience Personal responsibility Voluntary participation Not promoted… Alcohol, Prohibition on Aliens, Belief in Angels, Belief in Anti-government activism Astrology, Belief in Austerities, Practice of Black magic, Belief in Caste system, Support for Chakras, Belief in Chanting, Practice of Children, Indoctrination of Civil disobedience Coercion of any sort Communal living Communication with the dead Compulsory financial contributions Conventional medicine, Antipathy towards Conventional psychiatry, Antipathy towards Course fees (exorbitant or otherwise), Payment of Demonic possession, Belief in Dietary code Disciplinary systems, penances Divine apparitions, Belief in Divine intervention, Belief in Divine retribution, Belief in Door stepping (going door-to-door, in British) Dress code or uniform Ectoplasm, Belief in Elect, Belief in existence of an End of the World, Belief in Imminent ESP, Belief in Essential books and/or equipment, Need for Exorcism, Belief in Family, Rejection of Fasting, Practice of Fire-walking, Practice of Free will, Surrender of Gender discrimination Harassment of ‘ex-members’ Hellfire & damnation, Belief in Holy days, Belief in Holy places, Belief in Holy relics, Belief in Homosexuals, Discrimination against Human or animal sacrifices Humiliation or confrontation therapies Hypnosis Intellectual ability, Need for special Intoxicants, Ritual use of Levitation Mantras Marriages, Arranged Messages from the dead Metaphysical theories Mind control Miracle healing Mixed marriage, Prohibition on New names, Adoption of Nomenclatures, Use of deliberately obscure Para-militarism Physical abilities, Requirement for particular Physical mutilation Politics, Organised participation in Possessions, Renunciation of Pre-destination, Belief in Pressure not to ‘leave’ or to ‘return’ Priesthood Private lives, Interference in Pseudo-scientific explanations Purification rituals Racial discrimination Reincarnation, Belief in Religions, Opposition to Ritual ceremonies Ritual food or drink Rule books Satan & the occult, Belief in Scriptures, Authority based on interpretation of Self-flagellation Self-sacrifice Separating children from parents Sexual abstinence Sexual taboos Sexual therapies Sleep deprivation Solicitation of financial support from public Speaking in tongues Special birth or death rites Special hairstyles Special jewellery or accessories Staring at things or visualisation Storage or consumption of bodily wastes Suffering as beneficial Suicide Therapy sessions Titles & hierarchical structures, Elaborate Tobacco, Prohibition on UFOs Voices from God Volunteers, Overwork of Weddings, Mass

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:30:59 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Have you noticed that YOU are on OUR site? Message:

What do YOU care how long we put on this forum. Are you concerned? If so, why? Why should you give a shit? I'm not here to recruit you or disband your belief system. I'm here to gather the truth about M & K and retrace a valuable part of my life. Yes, I also do want to expose M to the world for who he is. Convincing you is the least of my goals, although I am concerned. If these allegations are in error, then our worldly efforts will be in vane, if not, than your efforts will be in vane. I'm not discouraging you from defending M but it will only serve your agenda to stick with facts because the Denial will flare up in your faces. The list of everything you said YOUR MASTER is not about is exactly what YOUR MASTER is about and everything you said that he is not about is exactly what he is about! INTERESTING. Do you think the people on this forum are angry or hateful and just using M & K as an excuse? Does that sound rational to you? I left M approx. 12 yrs. ago and never had an angry thought towards him, TILL I came back here a couple of weeks ago. Are you willing to go to the press and television and magazines to assert your beliefs regarding YOUR MASTER. Are you? Would you have your family, past friends, new friends, future friends, neighbours, peers, employers (past, present, and future) tune in to hear to profess the Truth about your precious master? Would you admit to singing ARTI, defend the Vows, and describe the ultimate Darshan of kissing his feet? Would you? If the answer is Yes , you may then have to? Good Luck. You can't re-write history. Perhaps you just don't remember or perhaps you never heard these things. But others have. Remember, M is the only one claiming here to be OMNIPRESENT. You couldn't possibly know for a fact what M did or did not say or how he may of behaved. Otherwise, you would not of articulated the lists which you did. On the other hand, I do remember talking about 1/2 the things on his list and I also remember, lucidly, the stories and quotes from PAMS or people who had One on One conversations. Sorry, re-writing my cognizant memory of history doesn't work. Shame on Maharaji for taking you into the final round with him. Cowardly little fuck, he is.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:01 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Mr. Williams - Go back and read it AGAIN! sheesh Message:

Wow - you visiting premies do that all the time. Where in my message did I say that You are trying to tell us what to say? Where? Where? Where? I asked you why you care about the time we put in here. I told you stick to the facts, because you are re-writing history. I politely told you that you either did not know, hear, or see him say these things because ......a)You're unaware or ......b)You forget (This is sometimes due to denial) I asked to think critically as to whether or not we were just angry premies who are disenchanted with M & K. I informed you that I NEVER EVER EVER EVER had a bad thought towards M until (approx. 3 weeks) ago when I ventured back for another peek at EPO. When I'm on this forum I'm discussing the CultLeader and his sicko fuckin game. I need to use this forum to release my angst because this is not exactly a socially acceptable problem to have. You seem to think that discovering that a major part of your life was fucked with is something we should just 'shrug our shoulders at'. Forget it! I'm sticking around. I am angry at the BigFuckHead, and for a good reason. No. I will not go politely into the night and let fuckforbrains get away with what he's doing. Nope. Not I. Nope. I did accuse you of re-writing history. Your memory is suffering from denial. You're ego is protecting you from accepting too much at one time. It will be easier for you to grasp the purpose of this forum if you step back from the mic and read some postings. When the truth hits you - it will be like a centrifugal explosion. Accepting the truth causes you to go back and re-order reality, sort out the bullshit. How we handle the truth after that is individual.

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Date: Sat, Jun 16, 2001 at 23:39:50 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat Message:

I just love it when you spell out the obvious to visiting premies. We can't even post on their sites but they insist on telling us what we can and cannot post on OUR site. Every post of yours that I have read that you have addressed to premies just cuts through the crap. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:19:31 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: PatC Subject: You tell him, Deborah. Your posts are a treat Message:

I'm not telling you what to write; show me the quote; you guys sure know how to MSU (make shit up.) Truth. What a concept. I'm just telling you how I feel. Don't misquote me, you naughty ex.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:19:17 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Mr. Williams Subject: Interesting that you use a list of what M/EV isn't Message:

promoting as justification that it is not a cult. What about the carfully thought out list that Joe compiled? Is the best response you can give a list of things M/EV does not do? Your inability to look at the obvious or even consider new information would indicate you ARE in a cult. And remember, cults come in many shapes and sizes. The more successful cults certainly don't kill their members, or even coerce them overtly. In fact, the less the cult appears to be a cult superficially, the more new members it can lure in, and more money it can make. A 'smart' cult carefully manipulates and controls, keeps secrets, and demands unquestioning loyalty from it's members. The more subtley it can do this, the better. The more it can hide what it's doing, the more sucessful it is. And if by doing all that they can get you to ''Never Doubt'', don't you think that is potentially very self-serving for them? If M/EV were not a cult, it wouldn't hide from scrutiny. It's financial records would be open to public inspection. Dissent and debate would be allowed (did you hear about the San Yisidro incident?) M would answer questions, because he would have nothing to hide. You can belong to a cult if you want to, it's not illegal. I'm sure many of the Premies don't even care that it's a cult. But denying it won't hold up to scrutiny. That's why you are supposed to ''Leave no room for doubt in your mind'', and ''NEVER question the purity of The Master''. Scrutiny is the enemy to lies, and the friend of truth. Even if it somehow weren't a cult, doesn't the lying bother you at all? Aren't the bold faced lies about the past, and the cover ups, all coming from a man who is supposed to represent the Truth, enough to cause you at least some concern? It was enough for me. After much consideration of as many facts as I could find and verify, I decided I'd rather keep the company of the truth. And that always holds up to scrutiny.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 17:04:24 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

Mr. Williams, My only reason for thinking Maharaji is a cult leader is because you attribute him with powers far above what you attribute to normal human beings. You probably think he can do no wrong (how do you feel about him being a hit and run driver, guilty of vehicular manslaughter, btw?). The truth is Maharaji is just one more guy with his own bright ideas about things. He's nobody special. To that list of things 'not promoted', might I suggest that you add 'guys who people think are hotter than shit when they're really just as fallible as anybody else (aka Maharaji)'

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:35:03 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: hit and run artist, this is not true Message:

I'm not going to make this long, because I'm not sure you read any of the responses to your occasional posts. You seem like a hit and run artist that comes to preach and then leave. But several things in your post beg a response, even if you're not the one that will read it. You said: Your allegations are based on total hearsay and the dim remembrances of 5, 10, or 20 years ago. I can tell from your comments that you obviously don't read this Forum, you just come to criticize it. What about Jim Sanders (just recently exited community coordinator) who has been posting lately and even on this active page? What about Pat C and Chuck S, in their local community's planning team until last year? What about the many who have recently exited including Kelly and Steve Quint? For myself, since M and K IS a CHURCH (legally, with the US IRS) and a CULT, I did not cut my ties totally. I exited gradually. Thus I have many friend and several family members that are still premies. (My sister went to Amaroo.) These close connection made it possible for me to see the changes and revisions over the years that you probably failed to see, or choose not to notice. Do you think that most of us cut off all ties with the premies, and that our information is not based on current knowledge? Think again. From God-in-a-bod to knowledge is just my job, I just give knowledge. From God or Guru Maharaji comes into this world to save you and krishna crowns to 'the speaker.' We're the witnesses. This is one little dog doo you won't be able to hide far enough down in the dirt. Also you say that M promotes freedom of choice. That's the BIGGEST crock I've ever heard. That's the bait. The switch is another story. Yes, so far, you're another preacher. You've been taking lessons from a very obnoxious and arrogant one, for sure, for sure.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:13:33 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: Francesca Subject: hit and run artist, this is not true Message:

Francesca, why is it preaching when I tell you my experience, and not preaching when you tell me yours? Why is there pretty much always an edge of anger or bitterness, and some scatological reference, in reply to me or anyone who doesn't fall in line with your perception of M? Back and forth, like a tennis match. This is getting forulaic; am I the weakest link? Are you? Goodbye. Best of luck.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 18:53:18 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Just more hit and run eh? Message:

You didn't respond to anything I said, or any of the points I made. Nor did you respond to any of the points Joe or anyone else made, with anything that could refute those points. All you did was describe my post in negative terms. Sometimes CD can be reasonable, and Erika Andersen was reasonable. And even Michele Deradune. But you are blowing smoke. Your facts are not straight. You don't really read the substance of what people are saying, you react to the fact that we don't like Rawat, because you do. Get over it. And then all you have to say is 'bye.' I can speak perfectly reasonably with people who LOVE M. As I said in my post, I have friends that are premies. But the premies that come on this site generally come with a bag of their own negativity towards what we are saying. Look at your grand entrance each time. You say that we are wasting our time here, or make negative references to why anyone in their right mind would post here. In other words, come at us like you have some superior view on life. You say we don't have our facts straight, when most of us do. Look at your own tone. You come on with quite an edge of superiority. Your attitude is bad. Think about it. And you started the conversation with us on that foot, and have done so before. You'll get it right back atcha, each and every time. Namatse, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 09:18:13 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Just more hit and run eh? Message:

Hi Francesca..... You didn't respond to anything I said, or any of the points I made. >I'm not here to argue with you. Our experience is different. We differ. Maybe I'm just a mirror---showing you your own 'attitude.' I haven't accused you of anything; I haven't gotten angry and insulted or abused you, or anyone here. I'm just taking my best shot at telling you my real, no-bullshit experience, based on what I've seen and what I've lived. I have no idea what's REALLY in y'all's heads. I don't know what's in anybody's head. Again, just trying to sincerely express myself in the humblest way my general level of built-in-from-childhood arrogance can muster. All you did was describe my post in negative terms. > I was describing what I felt to be a negative post; do you feel insulted by me? You certainly write like you do. I can't control that, but I can control my reaction/response--I am biased toward atavistic respect for humans; I wouldn't want to insult you. Sorry, irony content here is zero. Sometimes CD can be reasonable, and Erika Andersen was reasonable. And even Michele Deradune. But you are blowing smoke. > Please define reasonable, as specifically as you can. Let me reiterate something I said in an earlier post, and maybe we can take the drama and tension down a notch: I will heartily defend your right to say, think, and feel what you like; that's a basic, human, global right---if not the reality, certainly the ideal, and I fully subscribe to it. In fact, my opinion is you, sincere as I am sincere, hoist yourself on your own petard. People can get a clear message from the subtext, the feeling in a post---they can feel yours, feel mine, think about it, check it out however they do, with whatever personal, internal process they trust, and make up their own minds and hearts. I respond best to respect, as I'm sure you do. Your facts are not straight. You don't really read the substance of what people are saying, you react to the fact that we don't like Rawat, because you do. Get over it. > I disagree; I think I understand clearly what the substance is; it's just that on most of it I hold a diametrically opposed view. Which I think is as hard for you to accept as valid as anything in your life---but that's just what I think; you have to draw your own conclusions. I'm definitely angry & hurt that y'all are dissing someone I deeply respect and love, but I try to hold on to just the basic human compassion I was born with. I have many, many friends who are no longer premies; I know, or at least I hope I know, they don't feel estranged from me or judged by me on any meaningful, intimate level. Same with ex-significant others. The people I love, I love. It's not something I switch on and off. Even when people do what I perceive or judge to be 'wrong,' even when I choose not to be in a lot of relationship with that person, I still have a feeling of love for them. Unless they do something Dahmeresque. :--) And then all you have to say is 'bye.' > Mild frustration. I apologize if you thought that was rude. You say that we are wasting our time here, or make negative references to why anyone in their right mind would post here. > There you go again...please reproduce the exact words that you believe were said. I did not make either of these statements. Please do not MSU(make shit up; I'm really trying to market this as a new, happening acronym.) In other words, come at us like you have some superior view on life. You say we don't have our facts straight, when most of us do. Look at your own tone. You come on with quite an edge of superiority. >Superiority? no, because I've gotten beaten up by my own arrogance and pride and blame enough to know there is no advantage to feeling superior; in fact, it is, IMO, an insane state. How can I possibly know whether my internal life is superior to yours? How can I have any realistic or practical experience of your internal state, or you of mine? It's all pure speculation. What I can do is choose my response, and choose who I wish to interact with, to a certain, growing degree. What I know is I love & revere Knowledge in my life, and what I think is that that pains angers you.I don't want to argue about it, because I can't. I just want to say it. Don't be afraid of a person feeling love, respect, & gratitude. These are incredibly hard-won states of being, if you place any credence in the artists, writers, mothers, shamans, healers, wise men & women of virtually any culture that's ever been on Earth. Are love and respect more powerful than hatred and insults? They are for me. Your attitude is bad. Think about it. >It's not bad, IMO; it's just way different than yours, a different worldview, and you seem to be having difficulty accepting that. And you started the conversation with us on that foot, and have done so before. You'll get it right back atcha, each and every time. >Respect is the key. Right, Mr. Heller? I think there's a blind spot on this site with regard to the ultimate lasting effectiveness of personal invective and bitter anger; there are a relatively few number of people that are drawn to a steady diet of rancor---or maybe I'm just naive. Namatse, f (Namatse: an obscure Japanese poisonous mushroom? Sorry, couldn't resist...... :-) Namaste to you, my dear.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 21:33:33 (GMT) From: Charles Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Francesca Subject: EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring? Message:

He didn't even bother to reply to my post or Deborah's in this thread. But it hardly matters, as his replies were mostly just put-downs. It's hard to actually talk WITH someone ABOUT something, when they have to LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT in their mind. Auto-brainwashing at work. They can't look at their blind spots, the best they can do is just whine. BORING. It's like listening to someone going to a meeting of MADD (Mothers Against Drunk Drivers) and complaining because the assembled members are antagonistic to drunk drivers. Blame is Evil? Yeah, right, especially when the shoe fits your Master.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Charles Sprague Subject: EXACTLY! Isn't it too boring? Message:

Hi Charles, Well Mr. Williams did respond to my post but he switched horses when he got there by defending something I didn't even say. Amazing how the ego defends itself, eh? Imagine believing that the BigHead's charade is all in our head. If he was so hip to Mirage, gee! why would he have stayed around? Doesn't add up. He wants to think that we're defective so he doesn't have to look at the truth. Deborah

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Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 08:50:21 (GMT) From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Deborah Subject: Yes, astute observation... Message:

Hi Deborah: You said: ''He wants to think that we're defective so he doesn't have to look at the truth.'' YUP!!! That really sums it up nicely, I like the way you get to the point so quickly. Those who will not listen to The Doubtmaker end up listening to The Excusemaker, and it's cousin, The Rationalizationmaker. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, but gave it away because it was too BORING and tiresome. - Chuck Who is finding peace of mind by not having to do mental gymnastics anymore to make sense out of lies and nonsense.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:05:58 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Oh yeah, Fran? Message:

Sometimes CD can be reasonable Silly, maybe. Innocuous and irrelvant, sure. But reasonable? Never! CD doesn't reason here. That would be like putting a few thoughts together in a logical framework, right? Yeah, that's what I thought. No, he doesn't do that. You must be thinking of someone else. Chris Dickey, right? CD? No, he doesn't do that.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 23:01:53 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: Doesn't reason about M and K Message:

That's true. But sometimes he speaks in a way more reasonable tone that Mr. Williams ever has. And though he won't doubt his master, which is his choice, he's not always lashing out at us. That's all I meant. There's a difference between being, reasonable and civil, and engaging in the act of 'reasoning.' How can you reason when you can't leave any room for doubt? --f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:30:05 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh yeah, Fran? Is Mr Williams weaseling out? Message:

He thinks having a master who's purity should never be doubted and who should never be criticized is not undemocratic. Woo woo!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:27:38 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Francesca Subject: learning from a 'living' teacher Message:

No, Elan Vital or whatever you want to call it is NOT a CULT! There is no exalted, higher than thou, god-like being being worshipped there. No, siree! Maharaji is a 'living' teacher. Living as opposed to dead, I suppose, Mr. Anderson. Ok, I admit I'm making a few assumptions and jumping from the living to the dead, but such comparisons by way of the contrasting use of the word 'living' invokes those soothing and powerful images of teachers like Jesus, Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Mohammed, et al. And your point, Mr. Anderson, is what? Elan Vital is not a cult and Maharaji is not your messiah? I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 20:46:20 (GMT) From: Mr. Anderson Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Very funny, Roger Message:

And my name is NEO!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

See, Mr. Williams is an excellent example of why Elan Vital and the premies get into the whole quagmire of 'cult.' It is extremely important to both premies and Maharaji that his organization NOT be a cult, otherwise half the premies would leave (still leaving the truly fanatic who don't care), and nobody new would get suckered into it. And I also completely disagree with Patrick that the Maharaji cult isn't a cult on the 'exterior.' It clearly is. The supression of information, the secret, exclusive events where secret rituals are performed (Amaroo and darshan respectively), the loaded, code-like terms, the censorship, the supression of free expression, the disdain for criticizing Maharaji, the fundraising, etc. The argument is that now that there aren't ashrams, and Maharaji doesn't wear crowns, and sits on less-elaborate thrones, that this isn't a cult. But see, those things are not what makes a cult a cult. That kind of idea also plays into the current premie nonsense that it used to be a cult, but isn't anymore. Again, the trappings are not what makes a cult a cult. It's the group-think, it's the enforcement of the doctrine against objective analysis. It's the supression of free speech, and all the rest, all of which exists to reduce the possibility that anyone will point out that the emporer isn't wearing any clothes. I agree with Way that arguing that the Maharaji cult isn't a cult is a losing proposition for Maharaji, and actually makes things much worse, because the arguments are so transparent and stupid. Currently, the basic argument is that, since premies don't commit mass suicide (or do some outrageous thing) then it can't be a cult. The argument is just to change the defintion of cult to something so extreme that nothing but the Peoples Temple or Heavens Gate would qualify. That's absurd, and we shouldn't let them get away from it. In reponse to the 223rd rendition of the premie 'move on' argument, this time espoused by Mr. Williams, I would just suggest that Mr. Williams' motives do not involve concern about the lives of ex-premies. He wants ex-premies to 'move on' because he doesn't like and is, in fact, deeply worried and threatened by what ex-premies are saying. He doesn't want to hear it and prays we just go away. I operate on the principle that gratuitous advice is usually not for your benefit, but for the person giving it, so you can guess where I would stick that. But for the 223rd time, Mr. Williams, ex-premies are all over the map on motivations. Some people are very recently out of the cult and are sorting things out, and talking about it helps. Some others feel they were ripped off by Maharaji and are seeking some justice and comeuppance for Maharaji (with some success so far, I might add). Still others think they have a public duty to give the other side of the story about the Maharaji cult, and since all the cult sites are completely censored, this website is about the only way to warn the unwary, often very sincere, people, who just might wander into something without complete information. And those motivations are just to name a few. They are more. Whether this is ex-premie group is a cult or not, get real. We don't have a leader, we don't think anyone has a divine right to lead, and unlike the cult, people can criticize ex-premies all they want to, and do on a regular basis, you being a prime example. There is no supression or censorship of information. No, that's what a cult does. Here's a little test for you, Williams: Go over to one of the cult sites, Maharaji's site in particular, and tell them what you told us, that Maharaji was running a cult in the 70s, that you think he's overweight and kind of unattractive, and that he screwed up as 'master' early in his career. See if that get's published there. I wager $100 Enjoyinglife or Pia Grunbaum won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Also, I would suggest that you saying that no one, ever, will convince you that M and K are 'bogus' is EXACTLY what a cult member would say. You are not open to objective reason or analysis. You are not open even the minute possibility that you might just be very wrong, have been deceived, and living on fantasy and wishful thinking. That's what people in a cult do. They leave no room for doubt to enter their minds on that subject, and hence they will never be able to evaluate anything about it on any kind of rational, objective basis. That's basically what a cult is all about: it limits and truncates your thoughts. It's self-censorship, and we ex-premies know all about that, because we did it ourselves for many years.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:00:57 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: Joe Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

that Maharaji was running a cult in the 70s, that you think he's overweight and kind of unattractive, and that he screwed up as 'master' early in his career. You're makin' shit up, Joe. I never said these things. Exactly what I referred to in an earlier post. How tabloidesque: lie like a rug and somebody'll believe it...keep playin' Machiavellian chess, Joe; the rational process, and debate club stuff, only go so far.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:28:44 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Joe Subject: Oops, Joe, I forgot about the modern trappings Message:

od cultdom. How could I be so dumb since I just got an invitation to one of their indoctrination seminars? To those with less subtle analytical skills it does seem that the more obvious aspects of cultdom have been gotten rid of (ashrams etc) but the color-coded videos carefully rated from ''Introductory'' (don't give steak to babies) to full-blown ''PWK ONLY'' sermons on the Master (you cannot save yourself - only the Master can save you) and the secret meetings and the generally conspiratorial culture of premiedom are damning. Excellent analysis, Joe.

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:47:33 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: PatC Subject: Don't beat yourself up Pat, you've actually ... Message:

... shown us a good example of the subtle (to an insider) revisionism and indoctrination that permeates M's cult, as I told Mr. Williams. I know premies that are stuck in that one. It's been revised so many times that they segued into believing that the whole thing evolved somehow, and it was all some crazy DLM person's idea that he was god anyway, and he was really cool and just put up with us and now he's telling us the truth. Like he told it to us so many times before, yeah. I mean, Francesca, don't you get it. He's a regular guy, and, hey, giving K is just his job. (smirk, smirk -- we just kiss his feet at Amaroo.) But they probably, as Jim Sanders and many have said, just don't really think about it too deeply, or the house of cards would tumble. To an outsider, the whole step-down-transformer and the beginnings of the bait-and-switch propagation are quite transparent. I am extremely glad that there are no more ashrams or premie communities like the old days, or nightly satsangs. I'd be interested to see what the more recently initiated and exiting exes say, but even Chuck says that he wasn't as 'damaged' as you and I were by the bhakti juju. Neither was my husband. I don't think Rawat's gravy train is at all damaged by this new approach. The damage to the wallets of the followers will be the same. love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Francesca Subject: The Inner Cult vs External Trappings Message:

This is the most difficult thing that I have to explain to my PWK friends. They do not see Rawat as the cult. They will concede that EV may be cultish but cannot see that their emotional attachment to Rawat is the real invisible cult. They cannot see that an authoritarian Master is completely antithetical to our democratic values and is therefore outside the norms of civilization and is therefore a CULT. They cannot see that their love for him has blinded them to his stupidity, vapidity and corruption. Telling them that they are in a cult only makes them defensive. To them cult means lots of rules and regulations, coercion and indoctrination. What they cannot see is that they have been indoctrinated into the most insidious cult of all - the cult of dependence on an exterior source for their happiness - the Master. They cannot see that he has twisted their minds with inane concepts and absolute nonsense. No wonder so many of them are in need of psychiatric intervention. It is such a subtle mind-fuck that they don't realize that they are being shafted.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 08:38:08 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: PatC Subject: The Inner Cult vs External Trappings Message:

They cannot see that an authoritarian Master is completely antithetical to our democratic values and is therefore outside the norms of civilization and is therefore a CULT. They cannot see that their love for him has blinded them to his stupidity, vapidity and corruption This is a credible argument? You sound like a John Birch society spokesman. Or a J. Edgar Hoover wannabe. Dude--please. Current, DOCUMENTED evidence that M is an 'authoritarian Master---' and not hearsay, third party bullshit, or 25-year-old 'examples,' either. And he's not stupid, vapid, or corrupt. You just think he is. And I'll defend your right to think that, and say that, forever. Is that that 1st Amendment stuff? The above quote sounds like something from 'Reefer Madness.' Doesn't that kind of creep you out, that stiff-necked, Cotton Matheresque, higher moral ground stance? Ooooh, I'm just a victim to that mean old Maharaji's stern & harsh visage, his unwavering Svengali number over me. I'm just deeply confused, and frankly incapable of making any clear or cogent perception of him....I'm just such a loser..... Please. We'll just agree to disagree. No preaching, judging, or insults necessary.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 19:02:37 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: 'Never doubt the purity of the Master. Never.' Message:

Spoken very forcefully, in Miami several months ago, at a closed program that you had to get into with Smart Cards. Why do you think we were told to get rid of our old pictures, tapes, videos? But yes, sometimes we paint with a broader brush when we are revved up, I'll drink to that! People have posted much information, over the past 6 months, from more current trainings than those horrible ashram meetings that I was at in Kissimmee years ago. If you get into the inner circle, if you REALLY want to know how he REALLY feels, I don't think anything has changed. There's the public persona, the average premie persona, and the dude that's driving the machine. Keep your distance, watch a few vids, practice K, and you'll probably be unscathed, as are several of my dear friends. --f

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 12:55:52 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: The Inner Cult vs External Trappings Message:

I just can't see why you get upset now. You are not serious about maheraj NOT being an Authoritarian master?? 'Rawat is not stupid, vapid or corrupt' you don't mind me asking why he claimed to be (greater than) god and now 'just a teacher'??? 'you sound like E Hoover....' (Pat C is a great guy but I doubt if he would qualify for a leading position in the FBI)

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:41:20 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: You tell 'em Joe! Another Good One! n/t Message:

assholes!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 16:39:32 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joe Subject: Excellent post JOE :o)))))))))))))))))))))) n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 14:38:27 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact.. Message:

Mr. Williams, Why can't you cop to the simple fact that the ex-premie Forum is not for you, that you think it sucks, and good riddance, bid it adieu?

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:50:50 (GMT) From: Mr. Willams Email: None To: Way Subject: Mr. Williams, why can you cop to the simple fact.. Message:

As I was saying below....rigid protection of content, constant personal innuendo.....people see right through that shit.....

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 11:15:09 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: You forgot on your promoted list ,the Message:

Protection of paedophilles. Revisonism (re-writing of history).

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 10:45:15 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Mr. Williams Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

the list, whether meant to be humor or in earnest, lies outright on these points, which I mean to lambaste forthwith: Not promoted… Alcohol, Prohibition on >since the age of 14, maharaji drinks every day, but premies were prohibited Aliens, Belief in >the astrodome parking lot cordoned off for the ships to land Austerities, Practice of >ashram vows: poverty, chastity, obedience, surrender Caste system, Support for >there is only one master, everyone else is less than he Chanting, Practice of >'the Lord of the Universe' ad nauseum(replace with any repetitive premie song unto exhaustion) Children, Indoctrination of >premie kids saturated with mom and dad's beliefs Coercion of any sort >no knowledge without enough videos; ashram vows of obedience and surrender Communal living >ashrams, premie houses, the Peace Plant, Kissimmee, etc. Compulsory financial contributions >Divine Sales,AMP,poverty vows, darshan lines, festivals, front row seats, dishnet subscription, amaroo registration fees Conventional medicine, Antipathy towards >just meditate, it's all maharaji's grace' Conventional psychiatry, Antipathy towards >'just meditate, it's all maharaji's grace' Course fees (exorbitant or otherwise), Payment of >training seminars--tiburon Dietary code >no meat, fish or eggs vegetarian, no drugs, smoking, alcohol--while maharaji glutted himself at will Disciplinary systems, penances >banishment to the boonies or another country, blaming self for not being surrendered enough or not pure enough or not having the understanding Divine apparitions, Belief in >darshan dreams, bilocation Divine intervention, Belief in >'just have faith, maharaji's grace will take care of it' Divine retribution, Belief in >'If you get this Knowledge and don't meditate on it, it's like having three tons of vegetable in your refrigerator and not eating it. When it starts rottening(sic), it's gonna rot like a hell' Dress code or uniform >ashram dress code:no makeup, cult jewelry only, plain hair, skin covered except face and hands, short hair for men. Elect, Belief in existence of an >millennium73 Essential books and/or equipment, Need for >barogans. earplugs.sheet/shawl/blanket. And It Is Divine. Divine Times. Light Reading. audiocassettes. videos. conference calls.altars. photos. buttons. Elan Vital magazine. festivals. darshan. pranam. arti. satsang. service. meditation. satellite feeds. dishnet connection.smartcards. Family, Rejection of >'nothing is more important than your connection to the (Perfect) Master' Free will, Surrender of >you're in your mind.you're confused. listen to more satsang. watch more videos. meditate. be in holy name. do more service. surrender.' Gender discrimination >'god comes as a man, but he must come through a woman. even he must do that. that is her service.' Harassment of 'ex-members' >'a small hate group, spreading innuendo, rumors and lies, led by a gang of four former top executives' Hellfire & damnation, Belief in >'break into a million pieces' 'die and see' 'if there is anyone who can be called the worst, it is me' Holy days, Belief in > the Knowledge session,hans jayanti, Guru Puja, Holi, any darshan occasion Holy places, Belief in >Hardwar, Delhi, Prem Nagar, Malibu, Reigate, Alton Road, Palm Island, the Boeing 707 at DECA, the G4, the G5, Amaroo... Holy relics, Belief in >charnamrit, prashad Homosexuals, Discrimination against >maharaji's personal phobias about Humiliation or confrontation therapies >foot kissing, pranam, service, surrender, waiting for Knowledge, smartcard scanning, eating maharaji's leftover food, drinking his leftover bathwater, vows of poverty, chastity, obedience Hypnosis: >constantly meditate and remember the holy name. never delay in attending satsang. bhajans. 'focus your mind on the form of..' Mind control > do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today. constantly meditat and remember the holy name.leave no room in your mind for doubt. never delay in attending satsang. always have faith in god. Miracle healing >it's all maharaji's grace New names, Adoption of >mahatma(gurupujanand, satchitanand, parampremanand,)(fakiranand, gurucharnanand, parlokanand, trebinanand, vidyanand...) pranam bai, mira bai, sulaksna bai, prakash bai, ...Durga Ji ...The Perfect Master, Guru Maharaj Ji, the Lord, The Sureme Power in Person,... The Client, The Speaker, The Guest, The Master... Nomenclatures, Use of deliberately obscure >moksha. raj vidya. barogan. pranam. charnamrit. arti.raj yoga. sat yuga. sat sang. kaliyuga. manmath. darshan. 'that experience' 'that love' 'that knowledge' 'that surrender' 'that understanding' Para-militarism >World Peace Corps. mafia poses.security premies. closed circuit camera pans of festival halls. smartcards. Physical abilities, Requirement for particular >tongue swallowing. elbows raised continually for 15 mins to an hour at a time. breathing under a sheet for an hour. Politics, Organised participation in >Elan Vital heirarchy. Residence heirary. Rabbi Korff's dinner in DC. Detroit key to the city. Possessions, Renunciation of >Divine Sales. ashram vow of poverty. repeated evictions from going to festivals paid with the rent money. the world is maya, all is illusion, it's his Lila. Pre-destination, Belief in >the perfect master comes again and again into this world to save his devotees from the darkness Pressure not to 'leave' or to 'return' >see rotten vegetables, above. Priesthood >mahatmas, initiators, instructors Private lives, Interference in >festivals. abortions. service. satsang. vegetarianism. chastity. poverty. surrender. agya. Pseudo-scientific explanations >everything is a vibration. this is the source. Purification rituals >'you need to listen to more satsang. become an empty cup so maharaji can fill it. surrender.' vegetarianism. cleansing fasts. colonics. juice fasts. wheatgrass. breatharianism. not listening to 'mind' Racial discrimination >parlokanand. Religions, Opposition to >the aspirant process before being acceptd for Knowledge. Ritual ceremonies >pranam. arti. meditation. the Knowledge session. darshan lines. foot kissing. maharaji's satsang. Ritual food or drink >prashad and charnamrit Rule books >the ashram manual. the community coordinator manual. the video presentation manual. the aspirant coordinator manual. the propagation training seminars. Scriptures, Authority based on interpretation of >'Krishna told Arjuna'...'This is that Knowledge spoken of in all the scriptures'...'in the beginning was the Word...' Self-flagellation >it's all my fault. I am not surrendered enough. I am in my mind. I am having doubts. I don't meditate enough. I am nothing. I am the worst. Who am I to even ask for Maharaji to look at me... Self-sacrifice >poverty, chastity, obedience. dedicate your life...give me the reins of your life Separating children from parents >unity school, UK, USA. no children allowed at events. Sexual abstinence >chastity, abortions, dissolve marriages (all while the leader bangs any blonde he likes the look of, while married with four kids) Sexual taboos >see above Sexual therapies >'sister, you are to meet maharaji at the four seasons tonight at 8 pm. come alone and wait for him in room #X. This is your great good fortune. so much grace for you.' Sleep deprivation >service freaks. Special hairstyles >short hair on men.plain hair on women Special jewellery or accessories >buttons. swans. lotuses. hearts. visions tchotchkes.program logos. earth shoes. barogans.earplugs. dishnet satellite hookups. smartcards Staring at things or visualisation >the light technique. maharaji on stage. videos. satellite feeds. festivals. darshan lines. Suffering as beneficial >'its all your mind. meditate . stay in holy name. do service. dedicate your life to him. be dust under his feet.' Suicide >>>>>>community's and the leader's complete ignoring of warning signs. abandonment and isolation of troubled premies. blaming the victim for their state, both before and after the act is done. Titles & hierarchical structures, Elaborate >see above: residence, Elan Vital, security forces, et al Tobacco, Prohibition on >hypocritical ban for members while leader is addicted to two packs a day, has 10,000 dollar side rooms built for one night so he can smoke after speaking. Voices from God >'everyone was weeping and I felt this power from inside of me so strong. Again I have come and you are not listening....I declare I will establish peace in this world...' Volunteers, Overwork of >DECA.festivals. millennium.soul rush. tierra del amor. amaroo. ******************************* the writing is not only on the wall, but the wall is smeared several feet thick with the flaking, peeling, crusting, cracking, blistering, disintegrating layers of damnation matching every item on the above list. I lived it. I am an eye, ear, nose and throat witness to it all. All four techniques. truth in jest--except it wasnt a jest at all. not then, and not now. sorry. you lose.

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Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001 at 07:47:28 (GMT) From: Mr. Williams Email: None To: janet Subject: Why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a CULT -- To Premies. Message:

No, baby---you lose because you apparently live in a world of blame and pain, and definitely way, way back in time. I GOT psychological