PatC -:- Why did some of us stick with M and K so long? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)

__ wolfie -:- post darshan blues -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:34:00 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- post darshan blues - ouch -:- Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:02:25 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Invisible Ghost = Omnipresent Maharaji -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:25:06 (GMT)

__ Steve M -:- WOW Pat ! -yes yes yes - thanks nt -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:14:42 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM** turn this into your Journey n/t -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:44:32 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:17:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes. -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:35:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- A lot of us have got a book about this inside us -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:18:18 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Why did some of us stick with M and K so long? -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:17:42 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Wow, you were sure able to do ... -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:06:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- do you remember... -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I wish I could say that ignorance kept me in cult -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:34:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- ignorance is consciousness of bliss, -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:41:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yeah the spiritual arrogance -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:57 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Wonderful, Pat...***A MUST READ*** -:- Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:38:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steve M -:- Cynth - I loved this bit - me too -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:21:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Pray means to ask for help so why not ask? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:31:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pray means to ask for help so why not ask? -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know you'll survive, Cynthia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:14:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I know you'll survive, Cynthia -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:45:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Good for you - go for it ............. OT -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:06:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bob -:- prayer -:- Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:27:32 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Why did some of us stick with M and K so long?
Message:

I know three types of longterm premies in the west: 1) those who have a title or some status in the cult or a paying position and who have something material to lose by leaving; 2) those who have reaped some sort of benefit from K and are still under the impression that it is connected with M; 3) those who have seldom meditated but cling to M ''as a talisman to keep in their pockets'' as Wolfie said.

This last group is the largest. They go to see M whenever he comes to town but have never gotten involved in the cult or participated in synchronized service. They have always distrusted DLM/EV, instructors and have never given any money. They mostly still smoke pot and are New Age flakes or counter-culture crusties. They are also ironically his most vehement defenders. There are thousands of them in San Francisco.

I have nothing to say to them or to the first group of career cultists. But I am friends with many premies who enjoy K yet still attribute its effectivness to M. These are the people who are bankrolling the cult with their modest but regular donations and who are keeping the local video programs going. They also do not like EV but send money to M to help spread peace and love.

Most of these people are good, kind, loving and generous. These are probably the main market targeted by the satellite broadcasts. They are not on the whole a deep-thinking bunch and have a sentimental and nostalgic attachment to M. There are about 5,000 in USA and a similar number in Europe.

I am now in the process of trying to gently tell these friends that they are trapped in a cult which has robbed them of their moral integrity, intellectual independence and emotional maturity. So here goes. Sorry fellas, I feel a sermon coming on.

The question I am most frequently asked by my longterm premie friends is: ''Are you sure K works without M, ie...the master?''

That is nearly always the first question posed to me in response to my telling them that I have decided to walk away from Guru Prempal Rawat for good. I left him a couple of times before but had never really gotten him completely out of my system. This time I have because it is a decision based on practicality and not emotion as was the case the other two times that I turned against him. This time my friends cannot say to me that I am just upset because they can see I am not. I am simply finished with guru worship.

This is my answer to my friends as well as other premies whom I know in South Africa, Britain, Australia, Germany, El Salvador and the US. I hope some of you are reading this because I don't have all your email addresses.

Us longterm premies stuck it out so long because we enjoy the love and peace which we feel in meditation. Devotion to M seems to be very much part of this as supposedly a fondness for the guru makes practice light and easy and puts you in touch with your feelings of selfless love. As Rawat Senior said: ''Knowledge without love is dry and love without Knowledge is blind.'' Affection for the guru is the whole point of Rawatism. M has never been a meditation teacher. He has always been peddling bhakti-guruism. I knew that from the beginning and tolerated the messianic megalomania as Hindu hyperbole. I also knew I was in a cult but I rationalized it so I can't be angry.

Most of us longterm premies originally got our jollies from satsang and darshan in the first ten years. Meditation was often a struggle and our lives were a rollercoaster ride of guru bliss followed by post darshan blues. But eventually meditation started kicking in and some of us even finally began to see that we got more staying at home and doing it on our own than going to M's events. So why did we stick with Rev Rawat? I stuck with him and went back to him three times because of fear and guilt.

This is the way I used to think about it. (I don't think like this anymore.) The goal of K is to cease to exist as an individual and merge your will-power with god - nirvana (no identity, no ego.) You cannot do this on your own. It must be done to you otherwise you are still exercising your will-power. Rawat says this often. ''You are like a fly caught in a spider web. The more you struggle to get free the more entangled you become. The Master comes and gently untangles you and lifts you out of that web and sets you free.'' (Jokey aside: what he doesn't mention is that he has to rip your wings off and leave them stuck in that sticky web in order to save you.) I believed that, if I left the guru, I would be trapped in some endless loop of ego-tripping and self-delusion.

I used to think that god is love and that selfless love is the way to merge with god. Saints like Mother Theresa did it through taking care of the poor. I thought Knowledge was better than that. Like the old saying: ''Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.'' I thought that K was the answer; that happiness and a reall appreciation for life was the solution to all the problems in the world. If everyone had peace of mind then the world would be at peace and we would all be brothers and sisters under the benevolent gaze of the Master.

Now I know there is no benevolent master and no longer know what K is. I still enjoy meditating but as a yoga mental health exercise, to relax and refresh myself, to become clear, strong, patient and generous and get enough energy to feel goodwill and warm loving. I also think that this can be achieved in as many different ways as there are people.

The four techs are not magical or mystical. I have often had the sneaking suspicion that other people don't even need to do it because they are not as nuts as I am. Most people I know have not done as many drugs or experimented with as many weird relationships or done as many crazy things as I have and are on the whole saner, simpler and more sensible than I am.

Anyway, the main point of this post is to answer the question, ''Why did some of us stick it out so long?'' And the answer is simple: We got something out of it and attributed it to the CEO of Rawat Inc. or the ''executive friend of EV'' or ''You Know Who.''

Each of us has to extract ourselves from the spider-web of gurujism in our own way and in our own time. Fear holds some and sentiment holds others. Yes, I would still like to find the ultimate love but I won't get my tits in a tangle about it and I would rather keep my moral integrity, intellectual independence and emotional maturity intact and not compromise it by an association with a seriously flawed person like Rev Rawat.

But the biggest thing is that gurujism does not work unless you are totally enamored of your guru and believe in him and trust and respect him. Well, I am no longer enamored of the guru and find him unbelievable and untrustworthy. Since washing that man right out of my hair, I've been feeling stronger, happier, more loving and honest and cleaner than I ever have since cutting the guru out of my life. I now have so much more fun with meditation without the fear or guilt that I don't give a damn whether I find god or immortality. Gurus are preachers of revivalism yoga. Who the hell needs preachers? Only those who have no self-motivation.

So, I don't know what K is or if there is a god and I don't care. As far as I know K was and is different things to different people. But I do know who is Guru Maharaji. He is Prempal Rawat the head of a money-making religious trip based on fear and guilt. And I don't hate him. I never knew him and now have no desire to ever get to know him. And I don't know if K works without M. I'm not interested in Rev Strangelove's K anymore and feel fine with what I've got.

I still treasure love above all else but, instead of trying to love an imaginary friend, I now love my real friends and I'll get high with a little help from them. I've gone back to my old egalitarian and democratic hippie roots. No more gods, gurus, lords and masters for me.

And, if my friends think I'm onto something nice and want to know about it, I'll show them in private, between consenting adults as it always should have been. But Rev Rawat would not have made money being an invisible guru stuck in a House in Golders Green showing a handful of friends who then showed their friends etc. So he sent people out to ''propagate.'' Yuk! Sounds like those pods in that alien movie. That was his first mistake and one that he can never rectify even if he wanted to which I doubt because there is a very real possibility that he thinks he really is the messiah. Crazy deluded man.

PS I just got this in an email from the Chief Church Lady of A---.

The message will get through

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Miami Beach, 8th May 1998

Wake up in the morning and say, ''Thank you. Thank you for this life, thank you for this moment, thank you for letting me be here.''

Don't you worry about who's listening. Because the one you are thanking is a lot closer to you than you think.

That which you really want to thank - could it possibly be put in houses of stone? Not appropriate. Could it be put in houses of wood? Not appropriate.

It can only be placed in that one house which will not burn, where no thief can enter, no bars are needed, no locks are needed, and that is your heart.

You can whisper it and you will be heard, it doesn't have to be loud. You don't even have to move your lips, the message will get through.

The fact that it was sent to me to ''remind me to be grateful'' did not annoy me nearly as much as the words of Rev Rawat did. Again the absolute inane blather but blather spiked with a dangerous and negative and deluded philosophy - the concept that there is a invisible ghost in ''your heart'' that you can have a conversation with and pray to.

If I wasn't nuts before I met Rawat I surely had a good enough reason to go nuts afterwards with such baloney as having a dual personality stuck in my body - the inner Maharaji. Actually that invisible inner M ghost in my machine was not difficult to exorcise. All I said was ''Out damned spot'' and it was gone just like the tooth fairy, Santa and other imaginary beings. Rawat is a primitive, anachronistic and dangerous airhead.

If I don't push the submit button soon I'll probably say more than I should. Sorry it's such a long post. I must have had FV withdrawal syndrome.

 

 

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 12:34:00 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: post darshan blues
Message:

Hi Pat,

good stuff to think about, specially the three different typs of premies and most special the post darshan blues......I wondered so many times. Once I wanted to live my life, like everyday is a part of standing in the darshan line, I had wished that my whole life is like walking in the darshanline. And I had a special prayer for M that nearly killed my life: 'Oh my GM, please never let my life be too good, that I forget to remember Holy Name'. Oh God it nearly worked! I wonder, where I've got this from?

ciao.......wolfie

P.S. no need to worry about me, I don't have stupid prayers anymore!

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Date: Fri, Jun 15, 2001 at 18:02:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: post darshan blues - ouch
Message:

I wonder where we got all that guilt and fear from? I never actually prayed for adversity but when it came it was always by His Grace and had been sent to make me remember Holy Name. Rawat was full of fear and superstition and still is but not so much. However he still preaches negative thoughts. No wonder so many premies are crazy. Well we're out of it and I have never felt better. Hope you are too.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 21:25:06 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Invisible Ghost = Omnipresent Maharaji
Message:

Beautiful essay, Patrick!

When you say the concept that there is a invisible ghost in ''your heart'' that you can have a conversation with and pray to. . . . Rev. Rawat is referring to himself, not just some disembodied power. He really believes he is omnipresent (though how he can thoroughly believe it since he ISN'T omnipresent and doesn't actually hear people's prayers might be an interesting subject of discussion) -- more importantly, his whole trip hinges on having you, (the premie), believe it. And the sad thing is that most long-term premies actually do believe it still, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I know I did when I was a premie. It is the cornerstone of the whole entire house of cards. Remove that simple belief and the whole mirage comes crashing down, you really begin to see him for the deluded and misguided (and dangerous) fool that he really is.

It's always been a mystery to me how he manages to so thoroughly snowball so many for so long. Hopefully EPO will be a wake-up bell for a lot of people.

Again, great post, and I'll be e-mailing you soon.
Love,
Joy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:14:42 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: WOW Pat ! -yes yes yes - thanks nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 22:44:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** turn this into your Journey n/t
Message:

n/t

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 08:17:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes.
Message:

But I've got so many bits and pieces filed under that name I'll have to put it on a separate site and just have as my Journey on EPO: ''Joined the cult 4/1/73 and left cult 1/1/01'' and a link to the rest.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:35:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM** - No! Journey - yes.
Message:

I was thinking of the same thing. Perhaps mining for different topics, cleaning up the posts and having a topic list to different pieces of it. With mine, I first have to decide what's 'of the moment' and what is boring as hell.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:18:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: A lot of us have got a book about this inside us
Message:

It's also a matter of finding the time to do it. Hopefully a decent editorial friend will step up to the plate to slash the BS.

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:17:42 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Why did some of us stick with M and K so long?
Message:

great post Pat, full of answers and substance from only through which a man of experience and integrity could contribute.

You mentioned many of the reasons that kept me enslaved for 29 years to the cult and mostly to maserati himself. On top of what you already mentioned I think I stayed around out of ignorance. I just did not know for sure that I had other spiritual options. It turns out that no-one needs options, who I am today, free from the constraints and dogma of the maserati religion is more than enough in of itself. But I did not know of that freedom back then, thanks to the information gleaned from the EPO and the worldwide web it confirmed that there was much more going on in the realm of m and the spiritual hoax perpetrated by him and others.

I had buried questions but I had no proof that there was anything better out there that I could trust with my all of my heart like I had with the maserati. I admit it; I bought the juju story hook line and sinker, I was a real zealot, in retrospect a spritual egotist actually. Even though I was not the plugged in company man or church lady type, I recruited newcomers tirelessly right up to the end.

I also let myself believe that I was one of the chosen ones, that I had something and someone in my life which was perfect and special and that I/it was above and beyond reproach at that level. Very smug, and a good salesman, I never went to a program without bringing a quest. I thought I was doing a divine service, propagating knowledge, leading lambs to slaughter was more like it. I have a lot of amends to make.

Given that strong an identity with the whole business, I consider myself lucky to have gotten out as quickly as I did with a few brain cells still in tact.

Today, I trust my own instincts, my own heart and I am finding like you noted in your post a wealth of knowledge and peace within, with no strings attached

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 23:06:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Wow, you were sure able to do ...
Message:

... a complete 180. Good for you!!!

love, f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: do you remember...
Message:

The thing maserati said about how a clever person need only to hear the truth one time and he recognizes it and walks towards it. Now a stupid person, you have to tell him many times over and over and demonstrate where to put each foot, first move the right one now the left one etc.

I got the truth about maserati right around the first time I arrived here, and I did not waste much precious time trying to gloss over the facts and get on with my life.

I guess that makes me a very clever person indeed... right maserati? If you or one of yours is reading this ....

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:34:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I wish I could say that ignorance kept me in cult
Message:

It was a sort of ignorance but not of gurujism or Hinduism or yoga. I knew all about those. Somewhere along the line though I started thinking of Guru Maserati as the Big Cheese, the one and only and not just one of many. Oops terrible mistake that.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:41:57 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ignorance is consciousness of bliss,
Message:

I guess ignorance goes to buying into the big cheese theory. That is the way I saw it too Pat, that I was hooked up with the big kahuana and I was on the inside track to enlightenment.

The statement 'ignorance is bliss' becomes all very clear to me at this point.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Yeah the spiritual arrogance
Message:

... tied right into my own. I hated religions, so I got snookered into the Maha religion by the meeting of his own fuzzy logic and some of my own.

From rejecting Catholicism, to being very 'Catholic' i.e., one holy, Catholic, apolstolic church, about M and K. I caught myself at this game in 1982 -- the beginnings of the thinking process that got me out of the cult. In fact, I remember almost exactly where I was walking in Golden Gate park and who I was talking to when that little epiphany occurred to me. Leave no room for doubt in your mind. Don't explore other meditations, techniques, or simply other ways of looking at the universe, my life, etc. I saw the trap door, and it was open.

love, f

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Date: Wed, Jun 13, 2001 at 20:38:40 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Wonderful, Pat...***A MUST READ***
Message:

Hi Pat,

What a wise, kind, articulate post...I won't quote you because everyone must read it!

I made a huge investment of love in Maharaji. Pat, I've been having a stressful time in my life (stupid circumstances that have interferred with my peace)! All that you wrote describes the substance of my current despair.

I long ago disposed of loving him. I threw him out of my heart. It's a worthless endeavor, to love him--he doesn't even know me! and I'm too old to hang onto such a loser. I always loved to pray to him (yes, I admit it, I always have prayed to goomraji--until the past couple of years).

That's a weird thing for me still. Prayer. Does a human need to pray? It is taught? I don't know. Instead I pray to myself, my heart, my core. I look to myself for strength to live in this nutty world, as I keep my eyes on ''EXIT'' sign on the door out of Maharaji's World.

Thanks so much,
Love,
Cynthia

 

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 06:21:44 (GMT)
From: Steve M
Email: mulley@oninet.pt
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynth - I loved this bit - me too
Message:

'INSTEAD I PRAY TO MYSELF; MY HEART ,MY CORE. I LOOK TO MYSELF FOR STRENGTH TO LIVE IN THIS NUTTY WORLD.....'

Best wishes and support to you ,

Steve Mulley

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 04:31:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Pray means to ask for help so why not ask?
Message:

I don't know if you want to talk about it here or should I email you? My experience has been that it's always best to ask for help from real living people rather than ideas of some...what.....? But also you have piqued my curiosity with this: ''All that you wrote describes the substance of my current despair.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 16:40:26 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pray means to ask for help so why not ask?
Message:

Hi Pat,

My current despair has arisen from the death of my friend last April. Tom and I were also her tenants for 14 years in a beautiful old house, a duplex, in Warren Village. After her death, her daughter gave us 2 months to vacate, not for any ''cause'' on our part, just because she wants us out. Very cold.

There are a lot of complicating issues, but stress has seemed to take hold of our lives. That's it.

My main feeling of despair is the issue of prayer, because for so many years I prayed to goob. All around me, family and friends keep telling me to surrender it, like ''give it up to your higher power.'' It makes me physically ill to hear that, because they don't understand my current dilemma regarding my own spirituality. That's why I asked if humans do need to pray or is it just a juju thing that's been made up from the beginning of human's existence on earth?

You're right about asking real live people for help. We have people looking for places for us to live in a 50 mile radius. It's a dead market right now in my area, however.

The other result of the stress on me is my propensity to dissociate. This alone is causing some problems (for me), so it's been a struggle. I know it's a temporary life circumstance that's triggering this emotional upheaval and certainly isn't the worst I've experienced in 47 years! I just can't wait for the knot in my stomach to go away.

I have only been reading the forum instead of posting. It's not that I need a rest from F5 at all; rather it's been difficult for me to concentrate enough to post.

Thanks for your concern, Pat...I'm sending you a big hug...
I shall survive...always have
Love,
Cynthia

 

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 17:14:34 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I know you'll survive, Cynthia
Message:

Well, you just touched a raw nerve for me - my insecurity about not having total control over my home territory. Please think about begging, borrowing or stealing in order to buy a home. It is what solved that problem for me. I know that a mortgage is not much more than a long lease but it gives control. I'd rather live in my own hovel than fancy rented digs.

As for prayer. When I was very sick in the 80s I turned to affirmations inspite of having a terrible prejudice against new age ideas. Eventually I found my own affirmations and my own words to to express them. And they work for me.

I hardly ever do them anymore but, in the depths of my despair they helped me. It is mostly about being optimistic and tapping into your strength instead of battling with your weakness and pessimism. If you need any tips on this Chuck and I have both studied it, him more than me.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 18:45:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know you'll survive, Cynthia
Message:

I completely forgot about affirmations. I used them many times when figuring out this adled mind of mine.

Thanks, Pat. BTW, we're looking at both options in the housing department.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 19:06:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Good for you - go for it ............. OT
Message:

The other nice thing about owning is that the ''rent'' is tax deductible and, when it comes time to retire, you do a reverse mortgage. Real estate is money in the bank and a lot safer than the stock market.

Yes, the power of positive thinking works as long as it is practical and not fantastical. My affirmations are mostly to do with my attitude. Thinking about all the good things I have seems to dispel the blues. I never knew how negative and pessimistic I was until I started practicing positive thinking.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 14, 2001 at 03:27:32 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: prayer
Message:

youy touch on something here Cynthia. I have had problems with prayers even before k. 28 years ago. I dont know if there is anybody out there anyway, can only pray for my kids. It has partially to do with my doubt that my prayer , out of a limited view, would make any difference in the eternal cosmic plan, multidimensional, in which time , space , possibilities, alternate universes and eternetieS are already (growing to??) be interwoven are in erxesitenzz??

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