Back to Claims / Quotes Index

Mechanics of Liberation

(Excerpt from Divine Light Vol 1 No 6 - Published by Divine Light Mission)

[Dividing Line Image]

Answers from Shri Guru Maharaj Ji, Prem Nagar Ashram, November 1971, aided by blackboard diagram.

Q: When we die, what is it that goes to heaven or hell?

GMJ: What happens is this. Your actions have a certain weight, and they are weighed, they are judged automatically. You fly from the earth but your own fuel will only take you as far as this crossing, here, where you have to stop. Then the judge comes, decides which direction you have to turn, probably to hell or to heaven, gives you the fuel you need, then kicks you in the direction you have to go. Understood or not? Not.

Q: I mean, it's not body because the body stays behind....

GMJ: Yes. The body stays in the graveyard. I mean the thing inside who is responsible for you. O.K? Understood?

Q: If you are in the Word when you die is your ego not involved, so you're just free?

GMJ: Free. Absolutely free. Have you seen a carburetor? In a carburetor there is a top part which is floating. And when the excess fuel comes, it rises and blocks that ejector which is bringing the petrol into the carburetor, right? But when you meditate on this Holy Word, there is no top part, and then the fuel never stops coming into you and so you are elevated right up, up, and up. Like non-stop jet. Understand? Non-stop jet to liberation.

Q: What does one do after one is liberated?

GMJ: Anything he wishes, that's all. Just see what a drop of water does when it is mixed in a glass of water. I must give you that practical example, right? What happens to a drop of water when it goes into a glass? Same thing when you achieve liberation. Have you understood? But don't think that once you go to heaven you are not going to return back here, right? You are going to return back. If you go to heaven, don't worry about a thing because you certainly are going to come back.

Q: How can it be heaven if you come back?

GMJ: What is heaven? What do you mean by heaven?

Q: I don't know.

GMJ: You don't know. First know what is the meaning of heaven. See, what you are thinking of as heaven is a place from where you don't return. Right? But that place is right here.

Q: And what is that other heaven?

GMJ: That heaven is where you go, you know, like a club. You go in and pay your money's worth. Understand? And this is like a jail. You do an action, the police come, take you up to the jail. Once your sentence is finished, you are free.

Q: What about the man who has both good and bad? He has some things that would send him to hell, and some things that would send him to heaven.

GMJ: That is all judged by the judge. This system is so far out that everything is correct to any extent you think. You are asked where you want to go first, hell or heaven. Heaven is like that. There was a rich man once, and he went to heaven and knocked on the door. And the secretary came and opened the door and said, "What is the matter? What do you want here? "

He said, "I want to enter heaven. "


He said, "Well, I want to enter."

So he said, "God, this guy wants to enter heaven."

So God said, "Call him."

And he came. And God asked him,

"Have you done anything good?"

So the rich man said, "Well, yes. I have given ten pennies to a widow."

He said, "That's all?"

He said, "Well, I have given five pennies to an orphan child."

"That's all?"

And he said, "Yes, that's all I have done good."

So God asked his secretary what to do. And the secretary said, "God, give him fifteen cents and send him back to hell. "

Q: Does liberation have to be in the body?

GMJ: You know, once you take Knowledge you are reserved for liberation, you are completely liberated. And you can only take Knowledge when you are here.

Q: But you said when you go up to heaven you are judged whether you are to be liberated or not.

GMJ: Not heaven. Here, on this crossing, right here. Here. O.K? This is where you are judged. Not in heaven. Here. At the crossing. At the main crossing.

Q: Is this as soon as somebody takes Knowledge, or is it when they realize Knowledge that they are reserved for liberation?

GMJ: As soon as a man takes Knowledge, he is liberated. Right there. Because he is no more attached, he has given his body to Guru Maharaj Ji. What else is liberation?

Q: Many of us, when we take Knowledge, we say we give you our body, we give you our mind, but we have been unable to give you body and mind.

Well, you should give your mind only, that will do. And I will tell you the method for doing that practically. It is meditation. When you are not doing meditation, you know what happens? Your mind is right here, and you cannot catch it. But when you do meditation you get away from it, like this, and then you just catch it. O.K? That is the method. Then you catch it and say, "Guru Maharaj Ji, this is my mind." You understand? So this is the secret. Meditation makes you firm. And the faster the meditation, the faster the progress. The slower the meditation, the slower the progress. That's all. It's perfectly symmetrical, you know. Have you seen those balloons which carry people? When you lower the weight, you are elevated. Right? Same thing The more you are elevated, because you are lightened. Try to meditate on it. Yes, what's the matter?

Q: Who's the judge?

GMJ: Known as Dharma Raj. Dharma Raj. O.K?

Q: What does that mean?

GMJ: Judge.

Q: Is the judge a premie?

GMJ: Judge is your brother, that's why he favours you.

Q: Does the liberated soul have full powers?

GMJ: The liberated one has got no powers at all. The liberated one is completely surrendered. Surrendered. Does not occupy his own anything. Completely surrendered.

Q: Are we just talking about earth, or can you return to any other planet?

GMJ: Well, you'll have to contact TWA, Trans World Airlines, about that. They can tell you. You can send a telex to London.

Q: If someone has received the Knowledge, but never practices, what happens at the judgement time, does he go fast or does he stop?

GMJ: Now, when he has received Knowledge, but is not meditating upon it, a double-top is placed in the carburettor, and the power becomes very restricted. That man has to push himself like this, and jerks out to this place, like an old man climbing up the stairs, a very old man. Have you seen a very, very old man, climbing up the stairs? How he jerks himself? Goes and steps, then stops. Goes and steps, then stops.

Q: Sometimes he falls down the steps.

GMJ: Yes, that's right.

Q: Before you go to hell and get punished in hell, why do you have birth?

GMJ: Let me explain. In hell, to finish up your spell in hell, you must be sent to earth. I will explain to you later how the soul goes from here to there, and how this hell is repaid.

Q: Is that ticket on the express jet, is that a one-way ticket?

GMJ: The ticket on the express jet, the non-stop jet to Mukti (Liberation), is one way. But you can get a two-way ticket. You can get it, if you want it. But then you will have to take body. I told you somewhere, where? In Los Angeles? Toronto?

Q: Is that what Jesus did in his body?

GMJ: His body was right beside the soldier. See, I'll tell you. Now we are talking about the jets. When we want a two-way ticket, we are sent here, O.K? And we are given all the privileges that have to be given in Mukti. Hanuman came with Ram, right? And he stayed like a humble disciple fully at the foot or Ram, right? And then Arjuna came He was always at His Lotus Feet. He who was the creator of Mukti even. They were at the Lotus Feet of that authority. So automatically they were in heaven. Understand? This is the condition of the two-way. Becoming immortal, immortal. You may see a picture of Krishna driving the chariot; you will see that Hanuman is sitting on the top of that flag on the chariot. And wherever you see that picture of that chariot so you also see Hanuman sitting right there. Like this is Guru Maharaj Ji's Lotus Feet, right? So this is the disciple who requires a two-way ticket, so that this can be done to him. Understood? (Maharaj Ji places piece of chalk in his shoe). Like this, the disciple will be right against His foot. Understood? Never be separated.

Q: The person who has reached the place, is he aware of having reached the place, or is there awareness left?

GMJ: Mukti, the liberation place? When he reaches there, you know, when he gets on that plane, his awareness has been taken by Guru.

Q: So then he is not even aware that he is there?

GMJ: He is no 'he' there. His 'he', 'I' and 'you' are taken here only. His petrol was totally filtered. Nothing like 'I'. Completely taken. When there is no 'I', there is no 'we'.

Q: A person that is liberated 'is' no longer.

GMJ: 'Is'? I'll tell you. Can you see the dropper, everybody? Can you see the glass? Now this drop goes, one two, three, four, five. Did you see them? Can you distinguish them in this glass? Have you figured it out?

Q: They're liberated.

GMJ: Yes, liberated.

Q: That's all right for the water, Guru Maharaj Ji, what about me?

GMJ: Don't worry. Same way, O.K? Understood? Whenever we are placed in the jet, that takes place. Completely filtered, completely mixed. O.K?

Q: When the drop falls into the glass, you can't see the difference. But how about the drop, does it know?

GMJ: No. Why does it even want to know? Man would not like to know himself at that point. Because he has become so tired of remembering himself. Now he would like to be completely part of somebody else and that is of his origin, where he never knew who he was. What is a child's name? What does he pronounce by himself? Who are you? (to baby) And he, Ahhhhh? (Baby replies) Who are you? Ahhhhh. Because he never knows what his name is. In his origin he is placed right back, fully back. O.K? Everybody has understood? Any questions on this, about what I have explained up to now?

Q: My question is this. You know you came from Mukti and you have come to the earth, you've gone for several lifetimes, going to heaven and hell in between and you've gone through all of this process through eons of time and then you go back to Mukti, so what is the point?

GMJ: The question is not why have you gone back to Mukti. The question is, why have you been separated from Mukti. Why have you been separated? You have been given an aim which has to be fulfilled. Every human man who has been separated from Mukti, from his origin, has been given an aim. An aim. A-l-M. Understand? Everybody has been given an aim. To be completely worked out. And thus he plays an act, he plays a role, so that he may complete it. For that aim has to be completed, by the Divine Will.

Q: If we were complete to begin with, why did you make us separated and having to go through the whole thing again?

GMJ: Just for that aim. What else? Try to understand.

Q: I think they're trying to ask why there is an aim.

GMJ: Is that right? Why there is an aim? O.K, open up your ears. Because of the Divine Will. Understood? Because of an opportunity. Do you understand?

Q: How does one discern one's aim, what it is in one's life?

GMJ: One must go to a spiritual master to find it out. One has to do meditation. One has to be again on that path.

Q: Was part of that aim to enjoy the universe? To enjoy the creation?

GMJ: A little bit. A little bit. But not to eat, drink and be merry. Have you understood? Really? Really? O.K. I'll stay five minutes more.

Q: What is the aim of the Divine Will?

GMJ: The aim of the Divine Will is Divine Will. At the moment I can see everybody. If I raise my eyes I come to this line here, and if I raise my eyes again I come to that pink thing, and then if I raise my eyes again I see the roof, and that's all I can see. And what is the purpose of it? That is not for you. That is for Divinity. For the Divine Grace of the Divine Personality.

Q: I understand this, the words are easy to understand. But will I know before I leave here that it's true, just because you said it? If I meditate and do my job, will I know what you say is true because you say it?

 GMJ: The thing is this. This is what I've been telling you, and I'll repeat it, I'll repeat it three times. The most truthful thing I say is the Divine Word which you pronounce at every second of your life. And that Word is spoken by the Divine Mouth. So what is real truth? If you want to understand me, you must meditate. Not even by my words will you understand. You can only understand me by meditation.

Q: Maharaj Ji, why did you choose us?

GMJ: So, whom should I choose? Donkeys? If I choose you it is your opportunity. What is the harm? Is there any harm in it? So be glad about it. Why be bothered about it?

O.K. Recess. After five minutes assemble here. Yes, I'll be back, I have to explain you the works of hell and heaven.

(Five minutes later)

Now, we have changed the diagram a little bit. Previously we were talking about hell and heaven, but now we are going to identify, to verify the states of heaven and hell. Now, hell is the place where man goes to receive his punishment, and if it is possible to give him the punishment in hell only, he'll be given the punishment there. Right?

Understood? And if the punishment cannot be given in hell, he will be sent back to the earth. Understood? But, when he once comes to earth, he'll be given chance to enjoy both; punishment and heaven also! Understood?

When he comes to earth he'll be given both things to do which he had to do, good and bad, reward and punishment. And he'll do them on the earth. Understood? Clearly? So that's why people come here; they are rich for a little time, you know, and they enjoy themselves, but then the riches become less and then they start enjoying the hell. Their punishment now starts coming to them. Understand? So this is very clear. And now I'll tell you of devotion. Devotion is a two-way ticket. But with this two-way ticket, you don't go here to Mukti. You go to that place. You don't go to liberation, but you stay here and this is devotion. Every benefit that you were supposed to have in liberation, you will get. Right? That means being away from Karma, away from actions and always in the bliss and the radiance of the Lord. That place will be given to you while you are on the earth with the Lord, with the human form, with the physical presence of the Lord. That is called devotion. As long as the devotee is there, the Lord can project devotion out of him. Understood? You know, if there is no devotee, how can there be devotion? Can there be devotion without devotee? How can there be? There can't. So, if there is devotion, there has to be devotee. Have you understood now? And if there has to be devotee, he has to be in a physical form. A devotee has to devote something. Have you understood that? So he has to be in physical form. And where is it possible for him to be in physical form? On the earth. And with whom can he be in the physical form? With the Lord, who is in His physical form. He has to be with the physical Lord who has come into this physical world with a physical body. Understood? It's crystal clear on the blackboard.

Q: Where should we go?

GMJ: Where should you go? You know, it is recommended for you to apply for devotion. Why? Because you live in the physical form, so enjoy nature with the physical Lord. What else do you want? To be with the Lord and enjoy nature too! Beautiful. Far out.

Q: Isn't the Lord within all physical forms?

GMJ: But the Lord himself has got a physical form. The Lord is within everybody. He's omnipresent. But He himself, for this world, has got a particular physical form. And He came by Himself into this world to spread this Holy Word.

Q: There can be more than one perfect devotee, right?

GMJ: There can be more than one perfect devotee, but there cannot be more than one Perfect Master. O.K? Anything else?

Q: What's the difference between liberation and devotion?

GMJ: In liberation, you no longer have a body. And there is no reaction of karmas, no reaction of actions. Understood? But in devotion there are the same rules and regulations. We have got a body, we must perform actions, but we are not affected by Karma.

Q: But to become liberated, we must be devoted, right?

GMJ: Yes, I would recommend it.

Q: Should we all follow your physical form ?

GMJ: You know, it is up to you, what you choose. If you want devotion, well and good. I'm ready to give it to you. If you want liberation, it's also good. Easy question, less understanding. Easier question needs lesser understanding. You must understand it more than you are doing now. Less laughing, more understanding. Understood? Devotion and liberation. O.K? Suppose the choice was given to you, liberation or devotion, and you choose liberation, O.K? You leave this place, earth, you are expired, and you go, and can be caught no more. This is what we call liberation. This is liberation. Mukti. This is liberation. Our place of birth, which has been known as, you know, the permanent residence of the Lord. Understood or not? Now, devotion is done at the Lotus Feet. And when you are here, you cannot be detached from liberation. Real liberation is at the Lotus Feet of Satgurudev. This is the devotee. And you are completely attached to the Lotus Feet.

 Q: In other words, liberation is going to the formless. Devotion stays with the form being merged with the formless at the same time.

 GMJ: Yes. And when you receive Knowledge and start meditating firmly on it, you will attain that which you desire.

Q: Could we devote ourselves entirely to liberation through meditation? No service, nothing else? Could we just withdraw?

GMJ: If you do that, your meditation won't become firm. You won't be able to keep up your meditation. This is a practical thing. This has been written in the Ramayana also a devotee cannot keep meditation in his grip unless he has got service and satsang as well. O.K?

Q: If you choose devotion are you always living in this world?

GMJ: Yes, because the Master is in the world. But it means living without suffering, no suffering at all. Without suffering. Like a lotus.

Q: What happens when the physical body of the Lord dies? Does devotion die?

GMJ: No. You know, when you are attached to the Lotus Feet, to the radiance, to the bliss of the physical form, it is forever. If a devotee comes to this earth with the Lord, and he is completely devoted, 'he' is no more 'he'. He has merged completely into the Lord. 'He' is no more 'he'. It is like this. This is Lord, right, and this is 'he' and he goes and fixes himself here. (Maharaj Ji puts chalk between His toes.)

Understood now? And that's why we take privilege of Guru Maharaj Ji's grace.

Q: Can we reach the stage of merging with the Word before we leave this body?

GMJ: You can achieve this stage before leaving the body.

Q: How many of us have chosen already?

GMJ: I have chosen devotion. Devotion is beautiful. Yes?

Q: Does that mean that a devotee is always with Satguru, life after life?

GMJ: Yes

Q: Have we all been with you before?

GMJ: Probably.

Q: How can we please Satguru?

GMJ: Meditation. Meditation, devotion, liberation.

Q: What happens when there is no universe, do we all go back to liberation?

GMJ: The universe will be rechecked and if you are there you will see. All the trees that have been sowed will have to be reborn somewhere else.

Q: Does Perfect Master have to become pure, realize his soul before he becomes Perfect Master?

GMJ: Not only realize the soul, he has to be perfectly realized, he has to be without sin, then he becomes Perfect Master.

Q: It says in the Bhagavad Gita that there is no individual personal soul, that the individual self is an illusion that has to be overcome.

GMJ: That is 'I', that is ego, and that has to be overcome. Ego come, delusion come, black light come. Opposite projection. Mind always brings duality, and what is the other word we use for duality? Individual? This is my individual property, that means this is mine, that is yours. That's why there is delusion. Really there is no individuality. When everybody is one, there should be no individuality. Everything should be one. But ego carries the word 'I' with it. 'I' is the individuality, the mind.

Q: When a person becomes merged in the Word, is it purely on his own effort?

GMJ: You need grace. That's it.

Q: Do we need to stay in your physical presence to receive grace?

GMJ: Not really. You can talk into the walkie-talkie and ask for grace and it will be sent express delivery.

Q: Do only people or human forms have souls, or does every created thing have a soul?

GMJ: There are many created things which don't have souls. This building has been created, but I don't think it has a soul.

Q: What about grass and stones and mountains.

GMJ: They have been made for you, to be utilized by you. When you read, you know, in the beginning God created fruits and all that, that's what it means.

Q: Animals also?

GMJ: Not to eat.

Q: No, no, not to eat, but for burdens. They don't have souls.

GMJ: They do.

Q: They do have souls?

GMJ: They're suffering hell.

Q: All the animals are suffering hell? Some of them appear to be very, very happy.

GMJ: Yes, but even then they are suffering. They cannot express themselves to the man whom they are under.

Q: But you can see the expression in their eyes' like a dog7

GMJ: Even then, they can't express what they're feeling. A little bit, but not all. Well, we have gone on to dogs and cats.

Q: Were we devoted without receiving Knowledge? Had we devoted ourselves to receiving this Knowledge?

GMJ: Well, that's partly right.

Q: We never received this Knowledge before though?

GMJ: If you had been a devotee, then you must have received this Knowledge before.

Q: Did we receive it and not practice?

GMJ: In that case you wouldn't be in this form. You would have been a dog or cat.

Q: We came here because of something? Some good actions?

GMJ: Yes, you came here through something. Maybe grace. Maybe actions. You came here, that's all. That's enough.

Q: Is this message of grace, is it stronger when you're in the physical presence of the Lord, or is the walkie-talkie method just as good?

GMJ: Walkie-talkie method is just as good.

Q: Could it be a person's objective to stay in the Lord's presence as much as possible, or does that hurt him.

GMJ: No, that is something else. That is a personal preference. If one prefers to be in the physical presence, then one is more in physical presence. If one prefers to be in the walkie-talkie presence, then one is more in the walkie-talkie presence.

Q: Is it possible in this lifetime to have total self satisfaction?

GMJ: Maybe in 5 seconds, maybe in 5 months, maybe in 5 years, maybe in 5 centuries, maybe in 5 births. Or maybe in l/5th of a second. Up to you, how much you meditate. How much you get elevated.

Q: When we do become really realized in this lifetime then we may still come back to live as a devotee again.

GMJ: But again then you will have to realize this Knowledge. You'll become a devotee. You'll become like Hanuman. Once you have chosen devotion, the Lord himself will come to search you out, instead of you searching for the Lord.

Q: So it will happen again and again, we'll all be your devotees life after life, again realizing every time?

GMJ: Yes, but you won't be separated from the Lord for a long time.

Q: At the beginning, God had the urge to know himself...

GMJ: God has the urge to know himself?

Q: Yes, in his pure form. Before the creation there was no duality, there was only one thing.

GMJ: No. You are trying to mix two theories at a time. How can God try to realize Himself? It sounded very strange, that God should try to know Himself. God is perfect. He has got nothing to know. He has only to output. He has got nothing for input. He has only got a lead for devotion, to hold it. He has got nothing else, just the grace to give away to people. No, you are the first person whom I heard say God tried to know Himself.

Q: I meant had an urge to know himself.

GMJ: Now, what is a soul?

Q: Soul is awareness.

GMJ: And don't you think that soul is a part of God?

Q: Of course.

GMJ: Of course, right. Now if a soul is with the awareness of itself, then God is aware of Himself. So how can He not be aware?

Q: Yes, He is aware of Himself, but when He gets into a manifestation....

GMJ: Even then.

Q: Why does God like devotion so much?

GMJ: Because he likes it. It is his hobby to collect devotion.

Q: Events from previous lifetimes, are these illusions when we think we can recall?

GMJ: I don't believe that. It is wasting your time to think of what is past. And even if you knew the future you wouldn't be able to change it anyway. What's the use of knowing? Even if I knew what will be done tomorrow, how can I change it? I can't change it. So, you know, trying to know the past and the future is only wasting time. You know that there has been a galaxy of saints, a galaxy of avatars, a galaxy of incarnations, and like Lord Buddha said, the Truth is one, not two or three or four or five. And on the subject of Truth, nobody gave a long discussion, understand? Truth is one, and the clever people, because of it, don't argue and discuss. Understand? And because Truth is the reality which dwells amongst you and everybody, it is a common thing. But being common, we cannot realize it until and unless we have got a medium, until we have got a method. But if you don't apply the medium, you won't be able to reach your destination.


[Dividing Line Image]