Carlos, I disagree ...
Re: Fluster, I won't "preach" K here. That isn't right, IMO. -- CarlosH Post Reply Top of thread Forum
Posted by: stranger ®
04/23/2003, 05:07:24


You tell Fluster to take knowledge or not - but not because of anything that either you or I say.

I tell him that he already has it. I have answered some of the things you posted on Anything At All below.

Annie pulled out the 'I'm more knowledgeable about Knowledge than you are; I was an instructor” card. So I’ll first respond to that.

First off – pretty insulting to automatically assume I was being superior here. I was simply relating that I had a level of experience that not all premies have had, and therefore might have a perspective that not all others had.

Being an instructor doesn’t guarantee someone was a better, more realized premie than a non-instructor. A number of them got fired for inappropriate sexual behavior. Some went on power trips. David Smith is still stiff, tho (sic) he isn’t rigid like he used to be.

I not only have never been fired for inappropriate sexual behavior, I never went on a power trip either. And why bring David Smith into it? And who said I was better or more realized? I don’t recall that in my response.

Nor is any premie better than any non-premie. All premie, if M's way has any validity, had to have K revealed to them. We've just gone thru a process you haven't yet. Anyone who thought that made him/her better wasn't thinking very clearly, that's all.

I never mentioned premies vs non-premies. Funny, it is always premies who bring this one up!

And while I never revealed the 4 techniques, never having been authorized to do so and never having broken my promise to not do so without authorization, I have translated a Knowledge session, into Spanish, for Charanand, and would hazard a guess that I’ve been in as many sessions as she has, having been allowed to sit in on the sessions in Puerto Rico (well, the 1st 3, while I was still there), and a number of other sessions on the mainland cause I knew people cause I was a honcho (please note the small h) for a brief while. In fact bossing a couple of instructors around, back before there were any Western instructors (except maybe poor Saph, in England), was part of my job 3 times.

You seem to be accusing me of something here? If so, do you have proof? And as for claiming to have been in more K sessions that I have, that’s a bit of leap for anyone, since I am sure that you don’t know exactly how many sessions I attended prior to being an instructor or even after all the instructors were laid off by Rawat. You never asked me about my involvement as a community coordinator, as a Visions staff member – anything – you are just GUESSING that you have more experience. But I thought you said that pulling out the “'I'm more knowledgeable about Knowledge than you are…’ card doesn’t make you a better premie – so why are you trying to pull it out here?

So her opinion isn’t as elevated as she may have wished you to think; it’s just an opinion.

ABSOLUTELY! Just my opinion – I admit it and will scream it to the stars – will you? It is all your opinion vs my opinion – the same as Rawat’s opinion vs my opinion – and opinion is just that – no matter who says it.

2nd, she asserts that K is yours any time you want. Well, in one way she is at least partly right. It is already within you. If M reveals it to you he will be doing just that, showing you something, not giving you something you don't already have. Something that was already there inside of you. He’s never tried to say differently, ever.

Right – and he also said that if you can find it somewhere else – then go get it!

And, yes, kryas similar to or identical with the ones he teaches are available elsewhere. I was taught a kyra that combines 1 & 2 once, I was taught 1, 2 & 4 twice, I was taught all 4 once, and read about the 3rd technique in a sci-fi best seller, before I ever came to him. But like everybody else I know personally who got the kryas elsewhere too, and all but one I’ve heard about, they clearly work differently now that I’ve got them from him.

Unfortunately you blow the whole argument by saying “…like everyone else…” Are you now speaking for everyone in the world? I don’t think so.

How do I explain this? I don’t; I just observe it. The exes don't explain it, either. They just deny it. I also note that experiences that were reported rarely if at all by students of other teachers are common with premies .

Ex-premies are happy to explain it. You state that you “just observe it” but I don’t believe that you have observed everyone who ever tried out the techniques (or other techniques for that matter). People create their own experiences – many “miracles” and “holy” experiences have occurred by a variety of people and religious beliefs and teachers. And what having them “in common with premies” has to do with anything, I can’t imagine. You will have to explain that one to me a bit more.

When I saw him for the 1st time, in Houston, Tx in ’73, the day before the Millennium event started, I actually saw him for only 2 or 3 minutes. The rest of that 4 day period from then till I flew back to Puerto Rico, I saw only a ball of Light (well, a 3-D oval of Light) when I looked at him. When my eyes were open I saw the Light shining out from everything else, permeating everything, being omnipresent, but I also saw the forms of the things Created from and of that Light. When my eyes were shut, without doing 1st technique, I was filled with Light, the same Light.

And I experienced what I thought of as Holy Name and a great sobbing from my soul when I first met Bal Bhagwan Ji and had darshan from him – how do I explain that? And I have also had deeply spiritual experiences during my time as a nun. Are you telling me that followers of other faiths have never had intense spiritual experiences involving light or love? Or is it just that premies claim all other experiences MUST be inferior – and therefore can’t be knowledge?

Since then I have often experienced the thing we call, many of us, those of us who see it regularly, the Doughnut. Which seems to be a Light experience similar to the tunnel people often report having moved thru in Near Death Experiences – tho I can’t say for certain, never having had a NDE.

And now you are saying that other people do experience this light – and yet when they are brought back to life, they do not automatically go running off to Rawat saying “You are the Lord – I nearly died – and it was revealed to me!”

In Puerto Rico I was, literally, “walked” by a 3rd technique experience that just washed over me, several blocks with my eyes shut, crossing streets without bumping into people or cars, to be hooked up with Elisha Perez who had arrived in PR a few days after me, with instructions to get PR going but with neither of us having a clue about the other one being on the island. In prison that happened again, 3 separate times during a riot (I’d fallen back into drugs after I’d returned to the US from PR, which ultimately led me to prison. I’ve been clean and sober for over 12 years, without any slips, at this point.) And I’m not unique in any of these experiences, nor in others I’ve had, nor in others that other premies have had. They happen to students of M far more often, and far more profoundly, than seems to be the case in other, for lack of a better label, movements. Do I have an explanation for them, other than the thing within being real and somewhat Universal? No. Do the exes explain them away adequately? Absolutely not.

It depends upon what you mean by “explain adequately”. I have had similar experiences in everyday life and also in my various spiritual experiences. My brother wrote me only yesterday about a synchronicity that he experienced while sending off a job application… “The successful sending was so besotted with near-misses and final success that I can't help but interpret it as a sign.” One minute you say, “Nor is any premie better than any non-premie…” and then you claim that miraculous events “happen to students of M far more often, and far more profoundly”. So who is being elitist here?

Brainwashing, the “need to believe”, etc, doesn’t cut it. How would that have brought me and Elisha together? Or walked me out of trouble spots in a prison riot just before they became dangerous, twice from behind barricades I’d put together that wouldn’t have been enough, one of those times tho I tried to resist

It is EXACTLY this type of belief system that makes such things possible. How have religious missionaries managed to walk out of dangerous situations with complete confidence that God would protect them? Belief! I worked in the psych ward of a prison as a nurse, and was spared in many dangerous situations – but I don’t give Knowledge or Rawat the credit for these events. Why do you?

Her comment about Daya has some merit. If you wait to take K from the next Teacher in M’s “line” there is no reason to expect it to be someone in his family. His Teacher was his Dad, but his father’s teacher was no relation to him. Nor was his Master’s Master’s Guru Maharaj Ji related to M nor to M’s Dad’s Teacher.

What I meant to say is that absolutely NO ONE is needed as “Master” for a person to received or experience the techniques or knowledge of the self.

And don’t worry about her claim that it doesn’t always work, either. In K sessions I sat in on where over 2,000 people received the Kryas with his approval, taught by over a dozen different instructors, I never heard of a single case where it didn’t work. There were cases where it wasn’t what people expected, so they’d start out saying it hadn’t. One guy who saw a mandala in primary colors from 1st technique who thought it was supposed to be a bright ball, like looking at the sun, comes to mind. In over 30 years of being a student of his in more than 15 cities in 4 countries I never heard a single tale of SOMETHUNG (sic) failing to be shown till I got to these BBs.

Well, obviously, Carlos, you consider yourself to be something of an expert on Knowledge sessions and how K works – so why didn’t you ever become an instructor? I wonder about all these mandalas and other things that you describe – Rawat told us as instructors NOT to ask WHAT the person was experiencing, especially with regard to descriptions…. This was a definite NO-NO. You seem to be describing K sessions of the 70s, when the Mahatmas asked us about our light and what type of light we saw etc… I am talking about the EXPERIENCE of knowledge and not the EVENT of seeing and hearing – we could watch TV for that! By what you are saying, if a person saw a bright light – it wouldn’t really matter if they felt nothing – as long as they SAW something. That being the case, I should have just taken a penlight into the sessions and held it to their closed eyes!

If you take K, take it because you discover that you have the kind of thirst he talks about. Take it from him if you come to believe he might be able to reveal to you what can quench that thirst.

Do you know what you just said? “…if you come to believe he might be able
to reveal to you…”
So, is it about belief or not? Rawat did not want us to reveal knowledge to aspirants until they were ready to believe him unconditionally.

Do it for yourself, because that thirst is there and you come to know that for yourself. It turns out to be a beautiful thing, that thirst..Having it quenched is a continuation of that beauty, which has been getting more beautiful for me for over 30 years. Good luck however your path unfolds.

Carlos, life is that beauty – the thirst is simply wanting to experience, know and understand life. The inner and spiritual journey is a part of that – but it is not ALL – there is so much more. One thing that Rawat never talks about is the love that we can share with each other. As far as I am concerned, a person who feels love but does nothing with it – other than worship a god – is denying the very nature we all share, and the endless variety of ways that we can increase love in our lives by sharing it with other creatures. Meditation is all well and good, but only if it somehow increases our ability to contribute to life in meaningful and generous ways.

My thirst disappeared when I took in foster kids and rescued animals and just basically opened up my heart to living life “in this world” instead of retreating from it. Rawat talks about freedom from fear and experiencing love, but words without action doesn’t cut it for me. I have been more inspired by other people in my life who “practice what they preach” than I have by Rawat.

So, I disagree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it!
(well, not so sure about the death bit, but you get the idea)


Modified by stranger at Wed, Apr 23, 2003, 05:40:35

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